introducing and I know that the sound will come up that I'll try to carry Doug Ellison over on your left my right is a native of North Dakota raised on the farm and ranch. He's a former employee of the State Historical Society of North Dakota. He served as a site supervisor at Fort Buford and the Chateau de More. With his wife Mary Doug presently owns and operates one of the best independent bookstores on the Great Plains Western Edge books. He has written several books himself in articles and he is now the Mayor of Madora. Next to him David Piper. David's career spans over 30 years with the U.S. Forest Service the last six of which have been as the supervisor of the National Grasslands in North Dakota and Northwestern South Dakota. He is responsible think of this for the day to day management of over one million acres of the public's lands including the Little Missouri National Grasslands the largest unit of the National Grasslands system. His fascination with the Prairie grasslands grew exponentially with an assignment to the Comanche National Grasslands as district ranger in the early 1990s. Welcome David Piper. On my immediate right Jan Swenson is the executive director for the North Dakota Badlands Conservation Alliance founded in 1999. Members hail from Sentinel Butte, Madora Belfield Bismarck Fargo and Cairo Egypt. The Badlands Conservation Alliance is the primary author of the Prairie Legacy Wilderness Proposal promoting an open citizen discussion for wilderness designation on four percent of the Little Missouri National Grassland. Welcome Jan Swenson. Mark Trimmer has permitted and drilled wells primarily in the North Dakota and Montana portions of the Williston Basin but also in other Western states including Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico and Idaho. He started working on environmental issues in the early 1990s with a focus on federal land use. He graduated from Montana Tech in 1980 as a petroleum engineer. Welcome back to North Dakota. And James O'Derman is a native of Billings County along with his wife Leona. He's an agricultural producer raising mostly small grains and beef aloe cattle. They have a family operation that by today's standards is modest. Their operation is all on deeded land either owned by them or rented. Welcome Jim O'Derman. Welcome all. Roger Lost Spike you're not in the premises are you? Fair enough we invited Roger Lost Spike from Miles City. Unfortunately he's been detained probably by icy roads. Dan I want you to get into this whenever you want and to point the way to clarify, to raise questions, etc. I'm sure the audience will want to ask questions too but Jim let me start with you since you are a rancher. The question really is what will the badlands of Western North Dakota look like a hundred years from now and how should we think about this? What should we value? What should be on our minds as this sort of historic set of pressures comes to bear on this fragile but extraordinary place? Well I'm glad I got the easy question but when I look at the badlands the first thing that I see is grass and the grass really is an indication of the ecosystem that presently exists. Quite honestly if we're going to be able to see a bad lands as we see it today we're going to make sure that we have to take care of the grass and that grass means that we have to provide opportunities for the people who are managing owning that land and our caretakers of that to make sure that that grass is properly managed and manipulated. That doesn't mean non-use that doesn't mean overuse it means to make that we have to put in place management practices that will provide for the continued growth and expansion of that grass. Now one of the things that I really think about and I feel really strongly about in terms of agriculture and I just want to mention this quote because this is from Ralph Waldo Emerson and before the conference here I got the email from Clay via Sharon that let's make this be a humanity's discussion if possible. Well I thought the quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson was especially appropriate because here's what he says agriculture is the mother of the arts and the foundation of all society the farmer rancher if you will stands close to nature he obtains from the earth the bread and the meat the food which was not he or she causes to be and I think in that context that's the way we need to look at it we're caretakers of really a very precious resource but we also need to know that there's a lot of should I say opportunities or assets that can be used and we can still maintain our surface and maintain the beauty that we presently have. Let me just ask a very quick follow-up you say the key is managing the grass but there and we've been doing that for more than a hundred years how well are we managing the grass. Well let me follow up by saying managing the grass it was back in the 1920s when scientists are recommended to our producers that you could defoliate 75% of the leaves on our grass and still be successful it didn't work the 30s are a good example of that yes we had drought but that was an absolute failure it was back in 1955 when a scientist by the name of Whitman said hey we were wrong we can defoliate 50% of the leaves but we have to leave 50% of that if we're going to be successful and what you're going to be successful in in addition to leaving the structure on the top of the ground what you're really doing is providing growth underneath the ground because a healthy plant is really the result of a healthy subsoil and so we need to make sure that we mix those two things together the biology is as important as the beauty and when I'm talking about the biology I'm talking about the above ground and the below ground structure I know you have lots more to say but I appreciate you're making a brief opening statement Doug Ellis and you're the mayor of Midori you've got a you wear several hats at the moment give us your perspective thank you Clay nice to be here in regard to tourism and recreation where that will be in the Badlands 100 years from now I expect it would play a larger role than it does now the reason for that is simply our population national population will obviously continue to grow people need a getaway the Badlands offers offers that getaway both in terms of the recreation and and just seeing the beauty of it but a big part of that too would be heritage tourism obviously the little Missouri Badlands have a colorful history in Madora in particular we're always trying to focus on that history and kind of elaborate on that history give people kind of an educational experience along with their their tourism trip actually I think the the recreation industry predates probably any other industry in the Badlands back in I believe it was 1856 Sir George Gore who was an Irish nobleman Dan mentioned earlier how comparing the the American Great Plains to the Savannah of Africa well Sir George Gore was on safari basically on the American Great Plains part of his hunting trip and he was he's been criticized ever since even even while he was on this hunting trip for the slaughter that he did he killed thousands of the Great Plains animals just for sport and trophies but part of his hunting trip was up to little Missouri Badlands in 1856 as soon as the railroad came through in 1880 if you look back at the newspaper archives some of the very first things said was that now now this beautiful area would be opened up to tourism and hunters recreational hunters that's what brought theater Roosevelt out here the first time he was a recreational hunter of course became a rancher and a conservationist so it's interesting to me how Roosevelt in his own in his own self incorporated so many of these different aspects that we're talking about today but to sum up again I I foresee tourism and recreation still playing an increasingly vital role in the Badlands thank you mark give us some perspective energy particularly an oil and gas standpoint it's really hard to say what it's going to be a hundred years out there could be no oil and gas activity left on the Badlands it could be fairly intense in any given place all driven by economics the issue around oil and gas and probably other energy things is that they're very transient compared to the agriculture and the things that will be here after we're gone and and before we're here I guess the key to around that is how do you manage those for lack of a better word they've catastrophic impacts that we have for a short period of time while we're there so they don't impact things like the grass and the water quality that you need to rehabilitate the grasslands and the natural ecosystem after we're gone so ranching will be here long after we're gone and so will tourism so it's just moderating the impacts of what appears to get the economic advantage in the short period of time and then the unholy alliance with dr. Worster of government and industry whether it's good or not it's brought nice roads to places you know that's good or that's bad it's funded the building of many schools in small areas is that good or bad it electrified a fair bit of the countryside out there probably good bad but in a hundred years who knows if we even have any activity here but you know mark you used a pretty strong term there catastrophic temporary impact that doesn't sound good I don't know the any time you cut a road even going up to your place it's pretty catastrophic when you bring in big equipment and slice off half of a hill to make a flat spot footer rig I don't know how you would describe that other than catastrophic well my reaction to that would be that we need to have a system of accountability and I think that our state legislature has done a nice job of making sure that takes place I would go so far as to say that I think the oil industry the gas exploration industry really is in tune with making sure that what we have is preserved at least returning it as much to original site location as was and is possible I would say that they're working closely with landowners this isn't only an issue that impacts ranching a dug talked about tourism I don't know how many hunters that I know that are what I call road hunters there are times when I'm guilty of that too I mean it's easy to get on one of those oil roads and we can find a nice buck just sitting off there in the in the draw rather than really getting out and as theater Roosevelt had noted really experience the wilderness the wild that doesn't exist out there so it has impacted that I don't know that that's good or bad I think that one thing that's important is that it's helped maintain the harvest of the wildlife because the wildlife do not provide the same opportunities for grass revitalization that beef cattle do and I'm prejudice because I'm a beef cattle producer but the science has shown that beef cattle really do provide assistance to grass chance once I guess first I feel a need to say to hope that that all the people in this audience really recognize what an incredible landscape we have how lucky we are to have a little Missouri National Grassland it's it's the largest of the 20 in the National Grassland system a study was done in that came out in 2004 by a group of a network of conservation groups funded in and spearheaded by the World Wildlife Fund that across the the entire great plains the little Missouri National Grassland was in the top three valuable landscapes you know we're hugely lucky to have this this landscape in in our state as far as what we're going to see a hundred years from now I guess I would have to say that it's as big of a question as theater Roosevelt had when he looked at conservation a hundred years ago global warming is a major issue especially in a semi-arid landscape like the little Missouri there is a good chance that there is a chance that with global climate change what we now have is semi-arid will approach desert and if that should be the case we will be looking at a totally different management on those acres then we're looking at right now I think that James might agree that it's not always easy to be a rancher in the little Missouri River area things are up and down drought comes around often it's not easy to make a living I think the risks will be much greater you know should that sort of thing happen we may be looking at the kind of significant restoration that Dan was talking about if that doesn't happen you know I'm an environmentalist in North Dakota I should say that the the president of our organization is a hunter you know so looking at that earlier today oops sorry looking at that earlier yeah I think I think generally conservationists environmentalists in North Dakota want to see those ranchers stay on the land the level the degree to which we love that landscape so do they and and it would be pretty hard for me to want to see anything that would kick them off at the same time if if we're looking at at really significant climate changes that it may be managed in a totally different manner with much more commonality with with ranchers working together on a larger scale than they are working on it right now thank you David Piper you have a unique responsibility and burden to be to supervisor million federal acres and built into your mission is that many different uses are important tell us what that means for you absolutely play first I want to thank you and Dickinson State University for hosting this symposium thank you Dan for coming out I think you really provided some great insights I looked at the schedule and I'm the government representative you know I scratched my head and yes I am here to help I know a little bit about economics not too much but I did stay at a holiday in last night so maybe we can figure that out later on in the symposium but when I looked at the question you know what will the little Missouri Badlands look like in a hundred years I pondered on this for days and weeks I talked to Clay about two three weeks ago about it and my responses it depends now isn't that prophetic I think what Dan talked about I think you need to know the history of a place what shaped the Badlands what forces what disturbances obviously water wind fire her buffalo now cattle all those forces shaped it Native Americans early settlers we have to take that into consideration we need to take into consideration the culture of the people who live in the Badlands some of the toughest people in North Dakota live out on that landscape many of them left because of the Great Depression but some stayed behind to try to eat out a living they're not real happy with the federal government there's a lot of controversy there has been since the federal government began the land utilization project projects in the 30s and 40s they're culminated in the Bankhead Jones Farm Tenet Act a number of agencies tried to administer grasslands and finally the 1950s the lands are given to the US Forest Service and I think the Forest Service took them rather reluctantly but we're here we've been here about 50 years and I'm happy to be here it's one of the the greatest places I've ever worked it's one of the most exciting landscapes you know the quote that I throw out there and it's attributed to Roosevelt anybody can love the mountains but it takes soul to love the prairie I think that's very true for some reason probably most of us in this room have that love for this prairie I can't describe it I try to talk to my kids about it some of them love it some of them don't but anyway we have to understand the history now what I'm concerned about right now is development in the grasslands not so much oil and gas I think that's temporary it may be out there in a hundred years I'm not sure I think industry does a great job you know we need energy corporations like Hess and Conoco Phillips do excellent jobs out there the footprint is becoming smaller and smaller you look at the bottom plate you know one pad for every two sections probably 10 or 15 years ago you know you had a pad every half a section so the technology is getting better and better what we have to figure out is how we stopped the ranchettes the subdivisions perhaps you know we can't stop this but you know we have outside buyers coming in for recreation purposes for hunting solitude recreation and that won't be stopped the places I've worked in my career primarily Colorado Wyoming and Montana I've seen rampant some division well we still have an opportunity here it really hasn't started I think Midora is seeing a little bit and I think that's fine but we need to develop a strategy or vision for the grasslands to preserve what we have out there we still have that chance now look at some of North Dakota's laws or regulations and one that really kind of wrinkles me is that the North Dakota Game and Fish allows a resident tag for a person that owns 160 acres in the Badlands they can go out and get an elk every year now I live in Bismarck I can get one in a lifetime so if you own 160 acres of the Badlands you can get a resident tag on an annual basis people are thinking about that they buy a ranch and they subdivide it four or six guys will buy it each will get as 160 acres his or her slice of heaven and then what happens it makes it more difficult to manage the landscape once you start subdividing you lose your you know your management flexibility so we need to think about how to keep that landscape intact and keep it whole and keep ranchers ranching on those lands now I do think public lands will be out there in 100 years they may not be the National Grasslands they may grow as Dan said maybe other entities will come in and buy more ranches and you know maybe we'll have 2 million acres public lands 100 years from now I certainly hope so but we have to keep that rancher out on the landscape you know we have to have an ecologically sustainable landscape and we have to have well that's it it has to be sustainable for both that rancher and the ecology of the landscape so you know having said that I think we've got a great opportunity here in North Dakota I think it's going to take the people of the North Dakota and great planes to come together to make it happen and how do you do that but through collaboration all the stakeholders have to come to the table and talk about it develop the vision and then move forward the the idea that you can sit back and veto a public action I think those days are slowly coming to an end I think all the stakeholders have to come to the table develop the vision and then move forward let me thank you let me tell you where we're headed here I want to get the audience and they've been sitting so patiently all day I know people have thoughts I know you want to talk to each other and you're only beginning to say what you want to say and first going to turn to Dan that's why you're here is to help I want to hear what you're hearing here what you're listening to what what you're what you're hearing in this conversation but let me be Roger Loss bike for just a minute you said we have to stop the ranchettes I met Roger Loss bike on my hike in the little Missouri two years ago and he said why do you want to stop the ranchettes if there's somebody that has money to pay and wants to live in paradise out there and goes out and finds a willing seller who are you to say that a ranchette is any less important than a cattle ranch or a tourist entity or anything else why is a ranchette so unpleasant to your view of the world well everything that it brings with it it brings roads water development more people onto a landscape that can barely support much life at all it's going to put more stress and strain on local governments to provide services ambulance services fire services all those types of things what I'm saying for the little Missouri we have an opportunity I'm not saying we're going to pursue that opportunity but if you want to you better speak up now I'm not talking about zoning but if we keep ranchers whole if we keep them healthy if we provide them incentives to stay on the land I think that we can prevent the subdivisions from occurring out there we can use conservation easements you know simply a conservation easement is the difference between development value and agricultural value the nature conservancy contributes towards that you know government entities can do that we want to keep that rancher whole and then we'll keep the landscape whole Dan what are you hearing well is this on yes it will be I assume I think one of the things I'm hearing is that Teddy Roosevelt and Gifford Pinchot would be pleased at the role of government in trying to help figure this out we're a hundred years from them now and my suspicion is that in another hundred years your successor is probably going to be playing this same role here saying perhaps some of the same things because the need for sustaining the ecology of the local place is going to be as pressing probably a century from now maybe more so with global climate change looming are upon us by then as it is now I think the elephant in the room clearly as global climate change and none of us knows which direction it's going to take us and it would seem maybe from the perspective of North Dakota that North Dakota would be far enough north that you know we might welcome balmy or winters and you know it may become the new Florida of second home owners or something who knows I mean certainly it would possibly create a longer growing season but I think the troubling part of it is that we do have this historical record that indicates that rising temperatures on the Great Plains aren't necessarily good for the ecology what you get is not not really a collapse of the grass cover but during the dustbowl grass coverage of much of the Great Plains was down to about 20% of the possible coverage of the landscape and in effect grasses were being were separated by large areas of bare ground bare ground that yielded dust into the sky and that sort of heightened temperature and lower precipitation sort of amped up into a future is going to produce something that I mean this is one of the things that makes the difficulty of projecting what the hundred year outcome of the area is so so daunting for us is that we simply don't know what climate change is going to do James and I were having a conversation over lunch maybe one of the things he could do is he showed me a document we talked last night and I was talking about this pattern I described in the introduction I did of this sort of embrace and retreat from the Great Plains and one of the things that I mean I teach the the Great Plains and the Rocky Mountains and courses at the University of Montana one of the things I say to somewhat incredulous students in Western Montana where everybody is constantly afraid of rampant runaway growth every decade the populations that has increased by another 10 or 12 or 15 percent and what I tell those students in Western Montana is well if you don't like this go to eastern Montana the high point of population in eastern Montana was 1920 and the population has gone down in those counties decade by decade ever since James put together the figures for the local area well it's really interesting I did have the opportunity to enjoy fine food with Dan twice in a row perhaps we can make it a three-peat but back in 1910 Billings County had 10186 people now keep in mind that Billings County at that time also included what is now present-day Slope County and Golden Valley County so if we even extrapolated some of those numbers out of there I would expect that the population of Billings County would have been around 5,000 give or take you know a couple percentage points the population of Billings County today now I shouldn't say today the 2,000 census was 888 but just let me give you a quick rundown 1920 it was 31 26 31 40 in 1930 25 31 in 1940 1777 in 1950 1960 was 1513 and that trend continues till as I noted 888 in 2000 so the exodus is that a result of government-owned land farmers not able to make a ranchers not able to make a living farmers need to to be able to assimilate situation you know if we knew the answer to that we probably would be millionaires but there is an ebb and flow of people and it's it's obvious that it's not an easy life but those that chose to stay and I think that was addressed earlier they're here because they want to be not because they have to be you say ebb and flow it looks a lot like ebb I don't see much flow there well but now let's go back here in 1980 or 1890 we only had a hundred and seventy people in Billings County well that's thoughts who has thoughts or questions you want to put to any or all of these panelists this is your chance right back here speak up thank you all heard that go ahead Jen well our proposal would would preserve very little of it it we're talking about 4% of the 1.1 million acres in the in the national grasslands and they are in five distinct areas within that national grasslands two of them in Mackenzie County and then two or three of them down in the southern badlands south of Madura and one west of the south unit of the park and we have multiple concerns why it is so essential that we do this at this time for one thing we're down to four four percent in the last grasslands plant signed in 2002 there's only there's less than 40,000 acres that are managed as suitable for wilderness bless you mark but there's you know 95% of the of the little Missouri National Grasslands is open for oil and gas development right now the Madura Ranger District is looking at uranium development uranium mining coming into the little Missouri National Grasslands and and what the company has described is is strip mining and it's not strip mining on the huge scale that we might think with coal but it is strip mining and if right now they're just doing very immediate exploratory types of activities going out there with with what I might call a Geiger counter and and and looking to see what the possibilities are but the 2002 plan does not deal with uranium at all and the rain the chief ranger of the Madura Ranger District has suggested that if the company finds what they're looking for and they want to move forward it's going to open the entire plan because uranium was never dealt with before and in his words it would put all areas again on the table it's it's did you want to break in I'm sure welcome to how long ago did you talk to them okay because initially that was what they were going to do who's that chief ranger you're talking about the pleasure but we'll address that I urge everyone in the honest to speak up because we want everyone to be able to hear each other the pleasures of multiple use thanks to Gifford and Theodore but it is an issue it's very early in the analysis of the issue Jan said right they're out doing some prospecting it's my understanding right now we've got some shovelwork going on with Geiger counters and stuff if they come back with a proposal to develop we obviously will get into an environmental impact statement situation to amend our plan we will have a full array of alternatives so I think it's premature to say strip mining may happen in situ or whatever it may not happen no action will be included will be addressed you know if there are significant health and safety issues I don't think we're going to do this on public lands but we don't know that yet you know we don't have all the information oh I would suspect that an EIS of that magnitude and significance would oh years we're talking years other thoughts are you going to protect the existing oil and gas leases from the uranium I think you're going to get the best attorneys you have my we're trying to feel sorry for you here that was the public meetings that I have attended regarding uranium in the little Missouri National Grasslands yes it would take time there would likely be a couple of NEPA National Environmental Policy Act processes that would be gone through with public participation up to 10 years is is what I heard at the public meetings 10 years is not very long it's not but you know I understand when proposals like this come in you know I I can't Ranger Jablonsky can't shut the door and board it up and say get the hell out of here we don't want to hear about it we have to address it you know we're required to buy law doesn't mean we're going to do it but we have to look at it Doug let me ask you a question we're talking about uranium oil maybe cold bed methane the Bakken lots of things going on you were saying cultural tourism heritage tourism always has been always will be a big part of the draw out here in the economic profile of this region I can speak personally when I go out to the National Park overlook and see the flaring of oil wells I'm less interested as a cultural tourist than I was when I didn't see that when I'm at the Elkhorn Ranch and I hear the thump thump thump thump of that well on the hill over there that degrades my experience at that place where does the where does the moment come when these things are incompatible I don't know it's it is a two-edged sword as you know as a private business person who relies on tourism in Madora my wife and I yeah we hear complaints about that you know from people who want to enjoy the pristine landscape since I got involved in city government out there thank God for energy you know this oil and gas tax helps us be there so we need the energy development it's I don't know where the where the meeting point needs to be if there is a good meeting point between the two but we need both we really do and you know you just you just try to try to find a happy meeting there somewhere mark what about this footprint because the light footprint I get it about the number of pads and all this but it doesn't take much to mar the pristine experience in the Badlands and I know efforts are made to mitigate it but just talk a little bit about these two things coming into conflict well I think approach that conflict from a bit of a different way I I wouldn't describe my I like the outdoors in the Badlands it's been a lot of time tromping around there but I'm not sure I would describe that as pristine experiences I find the marks of man everywhere I go late at night I can hear the jets flying over I mean so I'm not I'm not sure that I would call it pristine experience I enjoyable but pristine no but I think in a lot of cases as an industry we can do a better job to minimize those types of but since you're looking over the landscape and reduce the flaring of oil and gas the but at the end of the day it's an industrial zone when you have an oil and gas thing and how I'm not sure how you do make that compatible with all the other uses particularly if you're looking for a wilderness experience other than keep us out you know the old expression that the world is run by those who show up I think based on what I've heard today at theater Roosevelt's idea about you know the conservation as the protector is far behind conservation as a developer that should be changed to the world is run by those who show up with money because the reality of it is that and I've had friends who have had ranches in the badlands and not even in the badlands next to the badlands and this sort of thing it wasn't their decision to want to sell because they didn't like the way of life but somebody showed up on their doorstep who convinced them with some dollars that they needed to move on to it another way of life or to retire so I think it's important that we frame it within the context that reality sometimes is something that we ask for but we really don't like the answer so as we look down the road what are we going to be like in a hundred years you know we're really economically driven but I think we do have some things that we need and want to say now I pride myself in the fact that I'm in the egg business and I would say this from the rooftops I think our producers today are some of the best and frontline environmentalists in the world so that again our producers today are some of the best and frontline environmentalists in the world they're up to date in terms of practices they're up to date in terms of preserving what we have and they certainly want to provide opportunities for people to be able to share the beauty and the experiences that they live on a day-to-day basis I think what it really amounts to is what kind of relationships and communication processes are we going to be able to put in place so that we can carry forward the beauty that we have. It's also hard to argue that when you're out there for a heritage experience that energies not part of the heritage of the badlands and exploitation in various different ways so you take the good with the bad and we drill wells along the interstate of our leases under the park we need to put a special kiosk for the tourists that come in spend hours explaining what the oil and gas business is doing and how a drilling rig works so there's that's part of the whole heritage mix also okay I was going to address my question to James that's fine um you're you're all on deeded land is that right correct okay and folks in the audience may or may not know that the little Missouri National grassland being public land the ranchers there are their permittees they lease grazing privileges on our public lands and the reason I just give you that free for a little background and I would ask you James one of the big reasons that I was delighted to do this panel is that there is such a lack of communication between users on the little Missouri National grasslands and that you know Doug and I might share more that way in conservation and tourism and heritage and all that sort of thing but there's not a lot that goes on between conservation and the oil industry or conservation and the grazing association movers do you have any advice that you can give us as to how to further that communication with with with the ranchers on the public lands usually I get paid for this seriously seriously you know every individual gets to make his own decision as to what they want to do but I think it goes back to what I said earlier the relationships that we have with each other now I'm not a permittee with the Forest Service I happen to have a brother who has a permit with Forest Service and I happen to ride those hills many times and I was a child too and and so I'm somewhat familiar with it and I have friends and neighbors who are permittees with the Forest Service sometimes that relationship is antagonistic because they really don't want big brother government as they call it telling them what to do the other reality of it is that what it really amounts to is a communication process and a dialogue and I think Rick could speak to that too that we need to make sure that we're on the same wavelength here's where we are today where do we want to be in five years ten years what do we want to preserve we want to make sure that we have the whole situation continued and contained what's really interesting about it is as we look at ranching operations we look at land and labor as the assets and cattle are the mechanism to provide the return for the investment with those assets so we need to make sure that there is an opportunity for the cattle to be able to return an investment and that is the same as sitting down with it an investment counselor so to speak called Dave Viper the investment counselor that you have with the Forest Service I might be stretching it a little bit Dave a little bit but the reality of it is I think it's about relationships there's no problem that's insurmountable if you have dialogue and have everybody's best interests in mind I know that I know you're speaking very carefully and that you also are honest about how ranchers on lease lands feel sometimes but it does seem a little paradoxical that someone leasing land from the people of the United States would then regard them as big brother I mean big brother is a tyrant intruding upon people's liberties but if I lease land from you I don't know why I should call you big brother see what I'm saying well I think and perhaps I was a little bit loose with my tongue when I said but I hear lots of people talking that way so but the point that I'm making isn't and that is this was a dry year and I heard the reference made I think daddy made it earlier about falling back on your belt and I tell you what this was a year that put us back on our belt you know we had grass that yielded 40 pounds in acre I mean it was an absolute failure so we had producers in our neighborhood that are on forest service land that experience the same sort of thing so the decision was made hey you have to sell 20 or 30 or 40 percent of your cows which is really the mechanism by which you get a return on your investment of land and labor so they're they're saying hey be a little more flexible with us work with us a little bit and make it possible for us to find other solutions to difficult situations but you know given that thought what are your thoughts on a forage reserve or grass bank last year the Forest Service purchased the Ebers Ranch also known as the Alcorn Ranch and we we freed up about 23,000 acres of public lands and just this week we issued a proposal to put those lands in a forage reserve that would provide ranchers especially in the Midora grazing Association some flexibility during times of drought wildfire or restoration you think or could you just comment on the idea well I tell you what I want to sit down wait right now well I'm not a scientist I'm a beef cattle producer and some of you might say someone who likes to talk but based on my limited understanding and discussions that I've had with scientists grasses need annual grazing to stay at their maximum health and productivity now this is a 25 or longer year study done by a scientist here in Dickinson who talked about manipulating and as I noted earlier in my comments grazing grass between the three-and-a-half leaf stage and before it flowers that will cause plants to tiller underneath the soil and produce more shoes his research has shown that not doing that create situations where you have excessive shading you do not get water retention into the soil like you could and or should and it's not as healthy as working on the 50% leaf harvest and saving 50% of the plant either in high structure or low structure just quick response you know well let me rephrase the question you know a grass-pranker forage reserve would or could be used on an annual basis if it wasn't needed for an emergency perhaps a permateek a go get a number of yearlings or if he needed some extra grazing to rest his own private property we would still use those lens so I want to make it clear that they'll be in production on an annual basis all I'm talking about is flexibility well and I'm not in the little Missouri grazing association I couldn't speak for them but I think one thing that's important is that the people that are involved in that association want to make sure that beef cattle stay on that grass because that is the mechanism by which we harvest that and get a return on the land in the labor and also keep the grass healthy because that's an important part of the whole thing so I noted earlier that is what research has shown makes what's below ground healthier than what presently exists if it's managed properly we are almost out of time I want to make sure people with a burning thought can get in starting here things like leafy spurred delimation toned flax and the like what threatened noxious weeds pose to the continued healthy ecology of the grasslands great question I think that's yours a tremendous threat there's no doubt about it you know we have a number of invasive species on the national grasslands a little Missouri of course and probably the infestation on the Cheyenne national grasslands the tall grass prairie on the eastern side of the state it's just of a magnitude that's almost indescribable probably fully 50% of that grassland was dominated by leafy spurred but we've had some real success out in the little Missouri with the flea beetle you know and a spraying program and we've got the foreign after pictures and we're working in cooperation with the grazing associations and the county wheatboards so we're making progress on that now I think a bigger issue you know we talked about that I think the encroachment of juniper trees and what he draws is a bigger issue you go out to some of the allotments and I would challenge you to get some aerial photographs from the 1930s or 40s and get some present-day aerial photographs and you will see the expansion of the juniper type in the landscapes that have never been seen before that talks to restoration that talks to fire on the landscape that's why I promote a grassbank when I talk to a permitee I say look let's restore your allotment where do I go with my cows I can move you on the grassbank while I burn these junipers and get some grass started where it had been before David have you been seeing salt sear moving down a little Missouri towards yeah we're aware of that and you know that that's that's a big issue I worked in southern Colorado once it gets established it changes the ecology of your riparian areas in a significant way got time for one or two more here's one I don't think that Jan's question has been answered about how the conservationist and the oil ranchers and the grasslands people can better communicate so that some of these problems can be solved by the whole group would you like that from well Dave in some sense you you are required to make that conversation possible I am not required to do it as you are because you balance it absolutely I mean that's an important question collaboration getting all the stakeholders at the table and of course it takes two to tangle you know you got to want to come to the table and talk about the issues that's part of the challenge that we're faced with and I tell you what we have a lot of good ranchers out of the little Missouri National Grasslands that know their land that manage well but we do have some issues with the associations they're historical they go back 40 50 years I think some of the fights you know it's kind of like my parents what were you fighting about I don't know but we fight and that's that's part of the culture here when you when you read some of the literature we like the fight we do how do we break through that I you know I pound my head thinking about that I go to alternative dispute resolution classes I go to Missoula to university professor help me help me and we can't seem to break through but I think we have to at some point I I think there are some some folks out there that do want to open up and start talking tonight I don't lay the onus on them I lay it on my agency in the federal government too we're not always easy you know we've got our dictates I I almost brought a book in here that the principal laws of the US for services that thick for God's sake you know I take that to a meeting that's got to turn everybody off but I think we have the latitude out here I know I have the latitude for my bosses go do good things do smart things think that's what Teddy wanted that's what gift wanted you know let's sit down and try to work something out now finish in a second what I tell people over and over again local solutions are much much better than national solutions when you lose the issue when the courts get it frequently you get a decision that nobody likes so let's sit in the room and let's pound it out and let's work something work something together I think there's enough latitude in the process to do it let's do one more back here what are we restoring and how far back well good question I personally and I think the agency supports this we're looking at native Prairie you know the Ebert's Ranch we have probably what six eight hundred acres of farm ground out there our plan is to restore that with native grasses you know we can work with the NRCS in the state they they've got you know some lands right there south Bismarck and our plan is to use native grasses for restoration I want to go down the line give everyone a last chance to speak a word I'm sorry I want to just apologize to everyone one answer to your question about communication is you don't try to do it in an hour and 30 minutes this this could have been the symposium but I wanted at least to get this conversation here I think it's been a really good one I've been really delighted by how sweet everyone is this usually this could go sour really quickly and we had a couple of moments there but we ducked them I'm gonna give Dan the last word but I can start with Jan and have each of you say just something in closing knowing that we didn't get a chance to really dig it how long I have I need to to respond to James comment about grass just just briefly and that it needs to be grazed every year and you know historically if we go beyond if we go beyond backwards you know bison certainly did not graze wildlife did not graze grass every year and it's it's the ecosystem their ecosystem was their ecosystem and it was it was meant to be it's it's a matter of looking at uses and the Little Missouri National Grassland has multiple uses and I guess the one that I stand in defense of not because it's the only one that I believe should be out there I think we need oil development and I think we need to keep our ranchers out there but but it is wildlife and and our own recreational spiritual in eight landscape values are also uses out there and I do need to bring up our prairie leg seat wilderness proposal one more time it's four percent of the 1.1 million acres that make up the Little Missouri National Grasslands there's five thousand acres fifty four hundred on the Cheyenne National Grasslands which is the tall grass over in the eastern part of the state considering that that oil and gas leasing is open on 95% of the Little Missouri and that grazing occurs on 87% of the Little Missouri National Grasslands with the rest being too steep to be to be grazed and in that grazing will continue should wilderness designation come to pass that that we as North Dakotans I mean if if we protect prairie churches because they're valuable why would we not want to look at protecting four percent of our 1.1 million acre public lands thank you mark I think there's actually a lot of communication that goes on out there I think what we need to do is work on the quality of communication in a lot of ways the from the wilderness proposal as it relates to conservation in the room put my own gas hat on we're opposed to wilderness designation because we want access but that being said we're willing to trade some things for certainty of process so take the four percent take it out with our hands then leave me alone in my existing industrial complex and just let me go about my business so I mean it's balances there it's not it's not that it works it's not that we I don't understand the fight between us I do you're saying leave us alone on 95% of the acreage well but but there's there's some things there to develop some things are not developed and so and for instance in the Freiburg or Dora oil field I'm unsure why I'm jumping through extensive hoops to execute something that's going to be executed anyway now if I go stepping out there and some of that in between that's least and not perhaps you need to put a higher scrutiny on me so it's where we where we marshal are limited resources to manage these things is what needs to come in clarity and I'm not sure how we can jump to a hundred years in the future and we are having a hard time admitting where we're at just right now good point I want to just read a little line here that I got from Sharon actually it was a line that clay had written in it it directly answers the question that this is a young lady you're asked earlier about trans question had been answered and that is I ask each of you to do the best listening to everyone else that you can because good listening is the root of all breakthroughs in communication and so that's really what we have to do is we need to have dialogue and we need to make sure that we're listening to each other and and we're working for the common good the thought I'd like to just close with this and I just love this phrase yesterday the cradle of conservation it would really be kind of a neat place to be able to have the cradle of conservation in Billings County but I can pretty much tell you right now that the egg producers in Billings County would give it a thumbs down until they saw the fine print I think the concept and I mean being in the marketing business a little bit this is what I and I wrote this down here so I wouldn't forget it in a literative catchy Madison Avenue marketing slogan that will be able to garner big bucks from conservation foundations private donors and government grants I really think it's a neat idea if we could get everybody on board and make sure that everybody's protected oh wouldn't that be a neat thing to have in Western North Dakota trying to decide if you're for it or against it after that was a nice point I've enjoyed listening to this I've learned a lot personally it's clear there may not be any easy answers but there are answers obviously one thing I'd just like to share a couple of weeks ago my family and I were out in the National Park on the Jones Creek Trail hike there's a guest book at the end of the path and I'm scanning that and on one of the pages a hiker had written boring exclamation mark on the same page someone had written awesome exclamation mark so there are differing opinions you know people look at the same issue and have totally opposite impressions so again there there may not be easy answers but there are answers and talking is the key David Piper well Jan alluded a couple times to the grassland plan and I think forest planning grassland planning was Hubert Humphrey's brainchild way back when you are a neighbor to the east the idea was you know we're going to make allocations that's how we're going to make people happy I'm going to give Jane her 50,000 acres of wilderness mark is 940,000 acres of boiling gas you your recreation trail etc etc isn't everybody happy today I mean I don't quite understand it but I'm not so concerned about those allocations as I am sustainability you know I think we have to look at the entire grasslands and make sure that it is ecologically sustainable for future generations and in doing so you know we have to keep people economically viable now will there be a shake up I'll tell you what on the national grasslands our average permatee has about 115 head permit you know and I know you can't make a living off that not 115 head and ESU tells us you need probably four to five hundred head so we're seeing leasing we're seeing these people come in from outside of North Dakota buying their trophy ranch and leasing it to their neighbor I don't think that's good business personally I think that neighbor should have the opportunity to have that federal grazing allotment permanently so that he or she can build on a foundation for their future when you lease from a private landowner who lives in Texas or Arizona you're susceptible to all kinds of whims I don't think that's sustainable that's what's happening on our grasslands we need to be careful about that I want to conclude by thanking you for inviting me I think this has been very very interesting I hope we helped you a little bit to inform you about multiple use management and in the difficulties it's challenging but it's very very interesting and you know get involved if you figure out you know how we can bust through and that communication thing give me a call I'm gonna ask Dan Flores to give us the last word then Marty will come up Marty Odom and Gardner and give us some thoughts about what how we get back on track here but I just want to agree with Jim I think I'm not sure I would oppose cradle of conservation on historical grounds but I also think that it's a divisive term that hypes the actual situation and would create more trouble than it's worth it would be like saying that Oyster Bay Sagamore Hill is the cradle of the Panama Canal you can see the point but it sort of is a distorted one in my view Dan Flores you've heard all this we're just getting started I wish we had two more days on this but take two to three minutes to wrap up for us well I guess my first impression is how reasonable and rational and civilized you North the Codans are you're very polite we can hardly have discussions like this in Montana in fact the Forest Service has from time to time had to call off public meetings over threats of violence to people who are going to appear and speak this is happening more than once in the area where I live and so I you know for one thing this kind of thing where federal managers of national grasslands particularly national grasslands administered by the Forest Service or BLM or sometimes Park Service decisions to that they get to go before the public that you actually have public meetings where people can weigh in and engage like this is again as a historian this is the legacy of Pencho and Roosevelt they gave us this the reason this strikes me as something to observe I mean it would seem self-evident except that I've lived in parts of the West on the southern plains where the decisions are not public decisions where all the land is privately owned the decisions get made outside the public realm you just pick up the newspaper one morning and discovered that someone has decided to do something and since it takes place on private land there's no recourse so I think again I want to go back to a point that I was making and it's because of my diverse experience in the West you guys in this part of the world really are the model for the rest of the Great Plains with a million more than a million acres of national grasslands and a national park with 80% of your grassland still intact virtually nowhere else on the Great Plains has these kinds of things in place so not to put the burden on you too much but all the rest of us are looking at you to get it right and we're going to follow your model in hopes that you do get it right so in case you didn't know that I just wanted to bring you the news that that's the way it's playing out elsewhere up and down the plank Doug Ellison David Piper, Jan Swenson, Mark Trimmer, Jim Oderman, Dan Flores, thank you all very much


the bill first passes into law but I'd say firstly that I think is a cost that is well worth paying for two reasons firstly because it will bring to book people who do want sheriffs recommendations and that that will start to have an impact and that really what's at the heart of the entire section of the bill about enforcing recommendations sheriffs keeping an eye on things and bringing a prosecution necessary is changing behaviour that's what's really at the heart of that section of the bill that after the first, second or perhaps no more than third prosecution brought under the bill that when the second or third person flaunts the recommendations in the I've brought to book that's when you'll start to see word filter out that's when you'll start to see behaviour change and actually we hope that flaunting recommendations will be a thing of the past so we think it's a price very well worth paying that if you take my example of the Belgrove and Newton train disasters if those recommendations had been enforced you would have both prevented one serious fatal accident but you would also have reduced the requirement for the number of fatal accident inquiries in a very practical point of view so actually in the longer term we hope that it would actually reduce the number that had to be held because lessons would be learned and action would be taken to make sure that there were not similar incidents in the future I've got a couple of points to just raise about the enforceability of recommendations which is obviously very attractive but and I'm sure the force of why you have proposed this but some of the difficulties that arise one is that and I think you alluded to it in fact you stated it in your one of your answers was that many FAIs are already adversarial so what difference does this make because this would in my view make it more adversarial but then they're not all like that but they may change the culture and nature of all FAIs I know your conch and inquire isn't death but if this proceeded it would do it and the second thing is which looks to me like a lengthy and pretty cumbersome appellate procedure which not only of itself is long from sheriff to sheriff principal possibly from sheriff principal he never wrote might go on there to the supreme court who knows and at that time it's going through the recommendation is suspended so not only have we got this cumbersome procedure it may be counter counteractive to what you want to achieve at the end of the day so there's several issues round about it that are perhaps when it seems to be a really good idea that are enforceable when you look at all the issues that were raised by the sheriffs and then you look at the issues raised here it's just a difficult one to sort without ending out with something that you don't want at the end of the day but it could take years the pellet procedure well I think the corollary of that would be however can be now that you would have recommendations that could ultimately be enforced whereas at the moment you don't but my point you see I'm making is that you don't make a recommendation but it's suspended it can't be enforced while the pellet procedures going through I mean it's not a disagree with your purpose it's just would this be helpful especially if there be an instance and more and more things are going through as far as the supreme court might go to the European court of justice there are issues extending beyond our own jurisdiction that might just make it we just need to look at the minimum unit pricing battle how things can go on long pass legislation well at the worst the issues would be in the public eye and there would also be I think anonies on the person against whom the recommendations were made to consider that as they went forward but ultimately you would have the opportunity to bring that recommendation to the fore to make it have the force of law so it's a balance of opportunities either you do nothing as it currently is and you have a recommendation that has no force or you take forward a situation where just because of natural justice and all the other things we have to think about you have to have an appeal process I mean that would be my own way of looking at it but I don't know if you want to add anything we also judicial review thrown into the pot as well if a party is subject to a recommendation that they didn't know anything about the inquiry going ahead or the FEI going ahead in your case an inquiry and it becomes almost Dickensie in the extent of legal battles it could fall hopefully not my response to that would be to firstly echo Sia Ferguson's comments that it comes down to a straight choice do we want a system where recommendations are enforceable and if so that comes with a certain price or do we not but I don't accept that this will result in a situation where there will be appeals judicial reviews left right and centre I am very confident that the appeal process will be used very much as the exception rather than the rule on what basis on the basis that if I were a major company and something were being a major company with pots of money and the sheriff's recommendation was enforceable and I just didn't want to comply with it wherever it was it could be a minor recommendation but something that had ramifications from our business you might fight it like Donald Trump uphill and downhill till the end of the road and at the end of the day the recommendation has no force what's at will as it would now just as a recommendation challenged now challenged as a recommendation which it wasn't previously I think that this Parliament has a very proud history of being beaten by big business and there's no finer example than that of that than the plural plaque bill that was appealed all the way to the Supreme Court and that the Supreme Court put a big business in the insurance industry in its place and that if a company such as you described, convener, appealed a matter all the way yes, pro tem the recommendation would be on ice but assuming that the court wherever it got to supported the original sheriff's recommendations then that recommendation at that point would become enforceable so the companies would have a big choice and appeal doesn't kill the recommendation it simply delays it coming into force and when it does come into force then it will at that point be a worthwhile exercise but can I just stop you to say that that stage you see prior to that under if it's not enforceable it is a recommendation that is not challenged in the same way as if you make it enforceable and it's going to be challenged through litigation through all the courts it is therefore the sheriff's recommendation is being challenged thoroughly to me it has even less it could have even less force but the alternative convener if I may is that if it's not enforceable then it can be ignored I appreciate that easy to cure this what we're trying to avoid so I think even if it were appealed ultimately it would have the additional force of having been taken through a particular process and would be all the more remarkable for that but it's also worth noting though that we're not suggesting that every FAI will result in the sheriff making these kinds of enforceable recommendations it may be that the sheriff will want to highlight something he or she may want to draw something to someone's attention an organisation's attention they may want to recommend to the Scottish Government that they pass legislation there's a range of things that a sheriff could do in the current situation but what we're saying is that in a case where the sheriff is of the view that recommendations that he or she can make can actually make a difference and can prevent incidents or accidents arising in the future and will have the right to make those recommendations and as Patrick McGuire myself have said then ultimately that will be challengeable but frankly I don't think there's very much any of us can do about that and at the end of the day it's a choice of something that might be challenged or something that might be ignored and I would come down on the side of the thing that might be challenged and I think just to come in there if I may and those self sane companies that you painted a picture of madam convener who will run the appeal all the way they're undoubtedly the same companies who would ignore the recommendations anyway so all paths lead to the same result except that ultimately we'd hope the court will support the sheriff's recommendation another thing I think is to pick up and hopefully it will only be for a certain period of time the comment in relation to health and safety being reserved of course there will be no enforceable recommendation in relation to health and safety matters and so that will remove perhaps a very contentious aspect where there might be appeals I've got a system the same issue it's actually gone a long way to actually addressing that but in terms of section 22 it enables the sheriff to make recommendations it doesn't mean that every recommendation or every statement the sheriff may want to make about the results of inquiry has to be legally enforceable it's only if the sheriff believes it ought to be legally enforceable that it would be that's absolutely right because we've endeavored as much as we possibly can to have our flexibility here because we recognise that there are FAIs and there are FAIs and some of them will be looking at very weighty, very serious matters indeed all of them are looking at a very serious issue in that they involve the death of one or more individuals but the outcomes from those and therefore the recommendations or the decisions that might follow will vary according to the circumstances so we have been at pains to try and build in that flexibility so that it's not one-size-fits-all Nancy, ground so dispute but why is somebody challenging why have you made this one enforceable when we think it ought not to be so it's just difficult for me it's difficult as I think it is for some of our witnesses who look at your purpose which is very laudable but it's trying to find a way of dealing with it where there's not unintended consequences which takes away from the purpose which is that I don't know if I've got there yet but do I have anybody else asking questions on something else Gil enforceable and I wondered about enforceable on third parties and I think you stated about LPG being buried underground and I would suspect because it's a kind of area that's actually working that it wasn't because it was buried underground it was because it wasn't protected to be buried underground so if it was enforceable in that regard then I think the challenge in that particular case I think a recommendation could be picked up and taken on by the health and safety executive but a third party some other place I mean I find it very difficult to believe that it would be impossible if it was a case how would that kick in I would believe that a third party might challenge that although they weren't directly involved in that case I'm not sure that getting into the technicalities of that actually helps but my recollection and Patrick Maguire will be able to correct me if I'm wrong, my recollection of the stockline inquiry was that it was entirely about it being buried underground because there was already guidance if not legislation that said that it should not be buried underground so it was the fact that it had been at some point it was accidentally done it wasn't done deliberately a car park level was raised and therefore the pipe was termact over and forgotten about basically so that's my recollection of that particular one but from memory there were disputes about who was responsible for that who should have been responsible for making sure it didn't end up in that situation and who was responsible for looking at the whole issue of LPG and those were disputes that were held elsewhere because there was actually a criminal case that preceded the inquiry in that particular one and at the end of the day it was the two companies responsible that were fined in court but as I say I'm not quite sure that that particular case helps us to progress the question you're asking is more the third party who is not involved in that in a particular case that shares recommendation being enforceable how it impacts on them is the case that a safety measure in one location is adhered to somewhere else because it might be removed because of a particular instance we did give that quite a lot of thought and I hope and it was certainly intended to be sufficiently covered off in the bill because there is two stages to the recommendation becoming enforceable and you may actually take a step back and say there's potentially a third stage I'm assuming based on your question that the people involved are truly a third party and the reality is of course that other parties than the deceased's relatives and perhaps the employer can be brought into inquiries and be allowed to fully take part and it is perhaps slightly distracting but using a stock line as an example GAO were a party throughout and they were able to lead evidence and cross-examine witnesses and there's firstly in fact the opportunity for other parties to be involved in the inquiry throughout and therefore to make submissions on whether or not recommendations should be made but even assuming they are truly third parties they've not been involved at all the first stage is for the sheriff to make recommendations and at that point they are no more than that that recommendations would go to a third party and under the bill is drafted a third party and has the opportunity to respond to that and if the sheriff believes that those recommendations aren't being sufficiently followed through then the third party is again asked to explain themselves and this would be no doubt the stage would be making the points that you have Mr Patterson just made and only at that point and only if the sheriff's not convinced by that argument would he or she go to the point of making the recommendation enforceable I think it would be very seldom that that would happen and we certainly drafted it very carefully to ensure that those safeguards were present OK, thanks for that John Can I perhaps go back to the question of recommendations and what format they might indeed take because there seems to be a perception indeed it's sort of followed through in the response from the minister I alluded to earlier the small passage from that there would be difficulties there would be other difficulties in making a sheriff recommendations legally binding the previous one referred to as Lord Cullen's suggestion it's at the presently unconstitutional recommendations are made as to how death and similar circums may be avoided in the future which we would all understand as the purpose they do not dispose bestow legal rights or obligations on anyone a sheriff cannot be considered to be an expert in all fields we would agree with that and it's surely better that a sheriff's recommendations are considered by the regulatory and safety bodies in that relevant field it would be your understanding Ms Ferguson that the sheriff's recommendations would be based in evidence he had taken from these very this isn't a lay person's notion this is an informed and evidence recommendation Absolutely and we've actually been at pains to make that point too Exactly what would happen I mean a sheriff's determination to use it in a variety of sense has to be rational which is to say it has to be based on the evidence that was led it would be utterly irrational for a sheriff to make recommendations based on things that were not led in evidence so I don't accept that criticism at all to be honest Thank you very much Do we have any Christians on here? But sheriff could make a recommendation to the Scottish government to introduce legislation then thereafter I heard that a third party could be cool to explain themselves why they are not taking on the recommendation of the sheriff Don't you think there is a constitutional issue about having a sheriff having that kind of power and do sheriff really want to have this power of asking a government to introduce legislation or to recall taking on a government who has not followed recommendations I wasn't suggesting that one of the enforceable actions that a sheriff might suggest would be that the government should legislate I was really just making the point that in any case with or without my bill as things stand at the moment or as things might be in the future that a sheriff could recommend anything that they thought was relevant so a sheriff could say to the Scottish government right now I think you should do this but there is no onus on the government obviously to take that on board at all Do you think there should be an onus on the government if the sheriff wants to? Well personally I think that if there has been the kind of inquiry that I've seen up and under the FAI legislation as it's currently drafted and enacted never mind anything that might come in the future then I think government should certainly take very seriously any recommendation that came from a sheriff who'd had that kind of inquiry in front of them because they have considered the matter very deeply and if they go to the length I'm suggesting to the Scottish government or anyone else that they should take action then they must feel very seriously indeed about it too They might want to or not but the question is would a sheriff have the power to go back to the government and asking that the recommendation will be taking forward is that not a constitutional grammar or a constitutional problem? I see no constitutional problem with going back to the Scottish government asking will they legislate absolutely no problem with that constitutionally at all I can well see that forcing the Scottish government to legislate which doesn't exist in this bill could well in terms of separation of power be an issue but that's not what's been recommended asking why not absolutely no difficulty with that at all Can I just ask it a short question on 34 section 34 J and cave not quite clear what they mean and this is the quota session may be act with the current provision for or about and it says in J the financial assistance which may be given on such conditions as may be specified in the rules to enable such representation to be given is that to do with legal aid or what and cave the expenses payable to persons attending inquiry proceedings now the expenses bit I think is fine but I don't understand the bit about financial assistance this is no more than an enabling provision and it allows it allows rules to be created whereby if it was thought politically experienced that parties to an FEI could receive expenses to be legally represented or alternatively to recover costs for appearing it's similar to legal aid but it's not under the legal aid bill or provisions I'd say it's more closely aligned to the provisions that currently exist under the rules in relation to public inquiries where there are provisions and procedures whereby a party to a public inquiry could be legally represented the important thing to remember is that the state would pay and that's why through the legal aid system I don't understand that's exactly why it's no more than an enabling provision that the bill does not say the state must or the Scottish Government must go down this road it simply creates a framework whereby if it was considered politically experienced to do that would the legal aid rules have to be changed as well I think that's not what was done under the 2005 inquiries act nor is it what was done under the inquiries rules so that's why that's the analogy that's followed it would be state money but it need not come out the legal aid bill just to know what pot of money would come out of where would it come from where any other money that the Government makes it's a political decision just testing it because I didn't understand what it was it's the same pot of money that money for the inquiries come out of at the moment right okay so you create this fund this fund would be created okay just wanted to know about that and it's not legal aid alright you're finished thank you very much for your evidence and we're now into private session


Alrighty, a new version, no sound, we got new sets, lights, nice, nice, oh cool, nice, yeah it's very neat, I love the changes, cool, okay I got some thoughts for sure, also asking about poses and weight, let's see here, let's go, since there's so much in terms of posing as cool, just weight wise first, that's great, I think I will probably get up a bit slower and it's just a bit of a compression there and it's just those couple frames and it's literally like you know if you're getting up like this just tiny bit, like it's literally just couple frames into that, the biggest thing is this though because what you will do is right now it's not that it's even, it is slow too fast but as in slow, too fast, not too fast, but what happens is that you're going up and then it's just then she's there with not much to go with in terms of the route goes up kind of stays there and just goes down straight into this and this is what I'm not buying whatsoever just because we're about to push forward with this leg but then there's not even a full extension and we just come forward really really fast so what I would do is give this rise here ease into this more it's a bit slower here so that you have a bit more of a snap up, overshoot higher so that she extends that leg and then she comes down you're gonna have to add a couple more frames it's basically you up down and on the down she can compress into a bit of a bend but then you got to go down and like this you can't just suddenly go like that from your current position she has to go up down into this meaning that she overshoots comes down and then that leg needs to compress a bit because that route goes down and then push forward into a full extension we need to have at least one frame if not two frames I would say two frames of an extension you can always rotate that hip over and the route more but you need to see a push because right now I feel like she's got a rope here and magically being pulled forward that's fine that's okay sure that's cute I like all of that and I think that's great and on him wait well I'll look at the this guy leaving something funky there the guy goes up and well imagine it's still rough I mean I would still have a bit more of this and maybe a bit of compression you can see some a gap here right you can compress with the chest a bit more and then it comes down and then you can have that exaggerated drop here and then I love that he barely moves and then I look over that's great yeah it works really well what is going on with this guy so he is coming in I'm not sure what's going on here because he's so straight for so long that I don't get there's no sense of steps and route going up without I don't know if you'd be fast the faster you get the less you know it's not like a bounciness the faster you get the more concentrated like you know less up and down you have but this might also be right now the camera you know what I mean I'd be curious you could send me a version where you have cubes here higher stacked close to camera so I can see really what is going on because right now is this part of the guy or is the guy actually just standing and the standing I'm assuming he's just standing and it's the camera that goes away translates away that causes this but it's a bit funky to look at and I wonder if you're gonna have to adjust something in the camera there or or or cheat it and have this guy bent and arms you know it's almost like it feels like he's running like I know he's he's in place but he can almost he can take a step forward but because you have that pose and the movement and especially the pose change it will look like he's running even though he's not if that makes sense right now just looks a bit funky how he's sounding so he's forward what does she do she hits this here a bit tricky because we don't quite feel I guess it's the what is she hitting is the thigh here hitting the knee already I think to read that a bit better and then maybe it's a cheat that foot to me the foot would have to be here or not just below and visually past this not underneath it not to the right this doesn't feel like or look like this contact but if you have her foot here with the leg it's like she passed his center line already and then now you understand oh okay um some odd here but he seems to be jumping forward stops and then goes suddenly down are you but he's not hitting the wall this is a bit odd in terms of spacing this feels like he needs to continue into this this there's an odd stop which again question could be the camera but I'm looking at all these lines here I don't quite see anything that will cause that to check out his stop there but then that kills the way to it also the way he stops shoot a bit too quickly too fast I think you can make him a bit more naturalistic and roll over and overshoot she's docked out overshoot comeback and then that comeback would be funny because he goes there like he goes forward and then back just because he's wobbly not because he looks up but because he is wobbly and looking and in that position he will suddenly see this guy go oh no into that that would be my thought on that watch out this is a bit are we dissecting here watch out that we don't intersect in the wall it could just be something to texture but for her how does she land she lands pretty straight on so what do you could do I'm always looking for contrast right where if she's like this on that jump could there be an overall rotation in y by 40 degrees 45 degrees you mean not like 180 but and that means she could lead a land here in that foot more here or here and the front foot actually more towards us it might screw up that silhouette because you don't want that need to bend towards camera but my point is that all of this she's pretty flat on and what happens to that is that she's so flat it makes her very twin the mirrored right in all these poses even this is pose wise too mirrored even this I know there's an offset but it's just not quite enough I would push that a bit more and I will probably have that chest go up a bit higher meaning that right now it looks like a head attached to a butt and if you just keep that head here so you can see part of a torso and then you could have potentially just that like to be a bit lower and then you can bring that leg a bit higher just really push that and then that arm it's a low arm but you know we've pushed the asymmetry of that a bit more it could also be something where she goes and it's really late where that arm is actually down then you have a bit of an upwards move just something in there I do love again now we have that little change there and then drop that's all great it's just too twin then too bent forward where it's just odd to just see only the head and nothing else of the upper body you know maybe it's like this but the head is here if you want to see a bit of that curvature that's why I'm saying what if she will be rotated to help you with this and throughout the fall she would then land in that position now you might argue I mean she could rotate a bit this way oh see how that feels there's no overall layer in there that's fine again we're a bit flat here that's at least a change there but that's a bit flat so to me it would be potentially this guy lower this guy could be higher like that more like this a bit sooner right that I like but just that moment too too straight to mirrored this gets a bit wonky watch out for posing because we're losing now the rest I think you can easily keep that arm down here maybe change this one too up what is she doing it's just a resting pose to to see what's going on so it could just be but that could be here even if it's this and like that you know here and we don't see the hand but at least we understand the structure of an elbow this just feels like stump out there that's okay the textures might be tricky to really understand what's going on in here so maybe bring that arm out further into a cleaner silhouette and giving you this kind of thing might just be cleaner that's fine I mean for this in terms of posing you could you have a straight but it could be I'm not sure you got enough time for that I was just thinking Gami could you just go for the full on C reverse because he's so heavy that at this point she actually goes back and it's her hair down come on down into this and then she goes back into this so you start like that like that and end like that that's one thing you can do I don't mind what it's here but it's also not a massive amount of effort so it might be who have you just to go even if it's just a little and then the head back and you can still have this and you imagine maybe the hands are almost off and it stretches the suit not an anime the suit but I'm just saying you know it could be like just that she's her last-ditch effort of pulling this guy it might feel also a bit more desperate and this given that he's that heavy I think it might also be a moment where where we can pull this a bit more it might argue that you're doing it twice then I would say keep this because he's already kind of turned over so it's less effort so if you want to if you don't want to have it twice keep that here but then this will have to be really like come on we gotta go and you got into some room to lift the arm and then she will look over and then plop down and get into a reverse I do like the head move at the end so yeah I mean the thing is for maximum contrast instead of two arms down two arms here what you could do is she goes ah go on and this arm slips first or slips so that at this point that arm she slipped back so that her arm is here and she finishes the whole thing so she could be a bit straighter right that arm ended up being here and the rest is just done with one arm for the finish and now you have a one arm pull at the end for contrast so that we don't have a two arm pull overall so I think that's probably something you can do and I think if you keep this and you have her here which means that arms will be higher and his hand is higher to give you this right we have a bit more of a clean separation between the legs and the arms versus everything kind of blends here and his arm is kind of hidden it's a bit muddy here so that there's a posing in silhouette probably can be pushed a bit more all righty it's kind of that again love the lights just a little bit of semi light comments at the end let's just see what's going on here and the previous review that's all this lights comes over here whoop over there oh and like yeah it's great love it yeah it's a really great change love all the textures and the set stuff at the lights this really feels so much better subjectively I like it a lot better you know this is always just my opinion there but yeah love it thanks all right there's an email you can sign up you can start whenever you want you can submit whatever you want you get 16 submissions either way a like 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