Thank you so much. So yeah, we have the exciting topic of payments left for this afternoon. I'm sorry But it's one of these things that is a yeah I know usually at home actually when we have the last panel I'd say you know look I'm sorry for standing in the way of you guys in the pub, but we don't really have the pub here So I'm sorry.  So Sorry, sorry. Okay, let's move on. So payments are very very important. I've been speaking a lot of With the W3C people a lot of people that involve in standardization and we all want to make the web better and that's fantastic But you know what one of the problems is is the money needs to come from somewhere We need the funding to do the cool things that we want to do Unfortunately, this is just something that we have to go and have a chat about and you know if you're really into it Then great because there is a lot of money to be made out of that. So cool panel panelists We've got Manus Mourney on my left. He sits in the W3C and the IETF Doing a lot of work around standardization on payments right now and co-founder or founder, excuse me, of Digital Bizarre Riccardo, Riccardo from Telefonica, Riccardo Valera Head honcho of the blue veer changed to mobile work and did some stuff on whack before then Ron Grimshaw Managing director of the Financial Times is sitting to my right here. So Known for FT's pioneering payment models. So cool. We'll have a lot of questions for you Kumar McMillan right at the end there from Mozilla working on a lot of things I'm sure you do a lot of stuff with MozPay and Firefox marketplace Excellent and Cindy over here does a lot of work in Google with Google wallet and the magic request auto complete Which I'm sure will come up today So Manu is speaking for us today. So I'm I'm driver of the slides. So yeah, I get all the good jobs So take it away. All right, so This panel is kind of titled payments, but I think it's far deeper than that You know, I think when we think payments, we think you know getting payment from Customer to the vendor. We don't think about For example, 30% of the people in the United States that currently don't have a bank account that have no way of saving In other nations, it's even worse than that. It's it can be up to 70% of the population that has no way of Saving money putting money aside for school for food things of that nature. So while we're talking about web payments, I think that there is a far deeper and more important story here and that is Figuring out a way to get the web To help people that can't save money that that don't live in countries where putting money in a bank is a feasible solutions for them So, okay, so so this isn't just about you know paying for products. Well, that's important for all of us This is not just a first world problem. It's a problem for people all around the world So As Natash said I am the W3C Chair for the web payments group right now I also deal quite a bit with linked data micro formats of micro data already a Json LD things like that And I also deal quite a bit with identity and security both at the ITF and the W3C And basically what that means is I get to see a lot of different technologies come by These these groups and what we're trying to do is we're trying to pick and choose Which technologies will probably be good candidates for integrating into the core of the web's architecture? Until now we really haven't had a core way of of transferring Value around the web, right? I mean the the thing that we look at to Spend money on the web right now or to move money back and forth They're things like credit cards and HCH and that's just not cool anymore. We have to have a better solution And so I spent a lot of time kind of championing Technologies a lot of the technologies that our panelists are working on currently so we've We've got a problem on the web right and that's sending and receiving money is Typically proprietary. It's very slow. It's insecure and it is actively hostile to innovation Right, that's that's the reason that that we don't have very many innovative Companies in the payment space You can argue that we do and I hope that we do get into that argument on this panel But really when it comes to making money on the web many of us make our our jobs are trying to or our jobs are Such that we get paid to work on the web But some people don't have the benefit of working for a large company like Google or Microsoft That can you know cover their expenses? They would like to have a more direct relationship with their customers and right now content monetization on the web is really hard It's really expensive, especially with it If you're a merchant you pay thousands of dollars in fees just for the right to process credit cards and the reason that is Partially is because a lot of the payment tech that we use today on the web was invented in the 70s, right? It's the ACH Automated clearinghouse system its credit cards all this stuff is really really old legacy stuff that Predates the web by a large degree so I Guess it would be good to kind of take a look at some of the use cases that we're trying to address right Let's let's ground this discussion payment for physical goods Today is actually a we do a pretty decent job at it on the web, right? I mean we've got like things like Google wallet and PayPal that That you can use to pay for goods we get the goods everyone's kind of happy, right? But when you look at the merchant side of this Creating a merchant account to be able to process credit cards is very expensive There are a lot of fees attached to it even even when when you have a really good merchant provider Payment provider it's still kind of it's an awful process for for folks that are kind of mom-and-pop shops that try to set up on the web You're usually locked into a payment processor when you pick them There's no such thing as data pot portability or if there is like it's really kind of terrible Doing things like in-app payments right now You're usually tied to a particular app store of some kind either the itunes store the Google Play store things like that And doing things like crowdfunding and crowd loaning on yourself about or by yourself You know instead of going through Kickstarter, which takes 10% of the money that that you make You can't do that right and these are these are fun It was this is these are things that at least some of us in the web payments group think should be fundamental rights not just in the US but around the world you should be able to Be in charge of your own financial well-being so I guess the The the the core here That we're talking about at this panel is is three different categories of things three different ways that we spend money on the web Three different ways of raising money and the first one is kind of the old money in the popular proprietary Category right this is most of the payment services that we have right now And this is absolutely not a slam to any of the any of the companies that are on this slide This is these companies solve a very important problem Which is it really sucks to do transactions over the web web using your credit card and an ACH So we've got PayPal Amazon payments Google wallet even the new like poster children for like really cool payment startups like Stripe Square Paymildwalla in sites like Kickstarter Indiegogo and crowd tilt These are all based on this really horrible old legacy system, right? There are tons and tons of problems that we'll go into during During the discussion today. So that's that's kind of the first category. This is what what's kind of popular right now The next category is Online app stores. So these are other types of kind of proprietary silos They lock you in Apple the Apple iTunes store the Apple store Facebook credits which used to exist when these slides were made but doesn't exist anymore They were just shut down a couple of a little while ago the Windows store Google Play These are all kind of examples of you know stores that give really great kind of user experiences But you're kind of locked into them when it when you use them, right? There's the the idea of having this open app marketplace has been talked about and luckily for us I think Mozilla has been doing some really great work in this area of the Making it so that you can sell web apps from any website You don't have to go through an app store of one kind or another and so the the final category. I think is is Predominantly what I'm really excited about right this is what gives me hope and so the last bit are These open web payment solutions finally people are starting to work on things that Fit very nicely with the web. They don't try and shim the old 1970s You know credit card architecture into the web. They are a new way of looking at payments on the web where payments are Instantaneous. There's a lot of rich metadata that goes with it So Firefox OS is doing a great job with their marketplace stuff We have pay swarm which is the first universal payment standard for the web Bitcoin I'm sure many of you have heard of Bitcoin. How many of you have heard of ripple? Wow I Was just at a banking conference like last week and like half the bankers raised their hands So that's surprising that like never happens. So so anyway ripple was built by like the Bitcoin folks It's a bit it's a kind of a better version of Bitcoin But these are all really cool technologies that are like native to the web that are are really gonna shake things up I think they're really going to finally bring kind of payments into the modern age so I guess The goal here what we're trying to do is we're trying to integrate open payment technology into the core architecture of the web Right we we did this for communication with email emails got protocols The reason that it's so easy to type in a person's email address and send a message halfway around the world Is there's a whole set of protocols around it? No such thing except exists for payments on the web It's just starting, you know, we've got kind of Bitcoin ripple coming along But we really need to work on it and that's what we focus on at the web payments group At the at the what W3C most of the panel members here are part of the web payments group It's completely open. We really need developers to join So if you're interested in any of the stuff that you hear on the panel today, please join Jump jump onto the group and join if you just Google web payments W3C And if you want to talk about this stuff, pull me aside and introduce yourself. I love talking about this stuff So so please at the party after this Pull me aside if you're interested in any of the stuff that you hear on the panel as well as the rest of the Panelists here. So quickly in closing There's a whole bunch of contact info for you to get in touch if you're interested in payments or interested in actually taking part in this work There's a lot of good that you can do here. Like this is world-changing stuff Twitter g plus panel email in the slides are posted up there pace form comm slash slides So without further ado, let's get into the discussion fantastic So, thank you very much for that Manu and with that like you said, we'll kick off with the first question which comes from Ada Edwards, I believe you're reading out this one. Oh Actually, can we just wait for a mic? Yeah, thanks. So I have a question from a certain Andrew Betts Topping up a pre-paid account with a merchant to fund micro payments is free money for the merchant Why would they kill the golden goose by moving to instant micro payments? So so I can jump in. Yeah, go for it. I Don't know if I quite Agree with the question meaning meaning that I think it's it's short-sighted for any merchant to think of it as any anybody That's not large. So like Google can think in that way Google can say I'm gonna require someone to pre pre-fund an account And then across all the Google properties you can buy things right your mom-and-pop Web store someone doing like a niche site is never going to be able to do that Or if they're good if they're going to do that they're gonna lose quite a bit of business because I guess theme forest is a great Example of this they required to put in like five or ten dollars what their themes cost a dollar twenty four And you have to kind of be at least I was when I when I bought one of the themes often I was pretty desperate I was really looking for a theme. I was under a deadline. I was like fine Here's five bucks and and a lot of my money is kind of sitting there still right So I'm I'm a bit ticked at them for that right. I wish I could have just gone to the site spend a dollar twenty four and Gone somewhere else And I think that is the model that we really should be shooting for on the web You should be able to go to a site just click a buy button Don't you don't have to sign up for an account you don't have to put in your credit card information You just click by the browser takes care of the vast majority of the payment for you, right? It's ease it's ease of use and I and I think micro payments is kind of a part of that You don't want to be charging people like two or three cents at a time But the idea that you should be able to do a dollar twenty five transaction I don't think is Is crazy? I think we should be able to do that on the web. Does anybody feel any differently about Ricardo? I was actually going to comment one thing So first actually if I could do a bit of a survey how many people actually take payments on the web How many people have a product that actually takes payment? Kind of reduce one and regarding the ripple question. How many people know Bitcoin for example everybody know Good so the thing that I was going to mention is that one of the problems that we have had with payments I've been working in payments for like years and when I go in I work with mobile operators Which if they're good at something is basically a taking your money So has anybody never received a charge from a mobile operator? They the bill always gets there, right? So and I thought that actually we had our our staff better sorted out that when I actually got there and In payments the main problem is that is a domain specific problem and it's heavily regulated domain as well So for example, why would somebody want to preload an account and then take your money from there? And actually make make that charge of fees in that transaction because there are different roles in payments So when actually when a payment occurs, it hasn't really occurred it occurs in different phases So when you for example pay something with a credit card that money is not yet on the merchant account that money has got to Go from bank to bank normally through a series if not only one clearing houses And then that ends up in the other bank. So basically that means that that bank hasn't actually got paid There's actually a risk that that money never gets paid and that is what normally they sure bank calls bad debt So when you for example, pre-pay an account what that? Merchant that acquire in that case is actually trying to do is reduce their bad debt problem They're trying to say I've got the funds. So if actually this transaction occurs, I'm going to automatically pay myself Thank you very much. So that actually occurs whenever two parties The net transaction don't have trust in between them And this is a concept that I suppose will go back and back again in the panel because payments is all about trust If I actually Email you and tell you would you lend me 20 bucks and you actually give me 20 bucks That is actually a transaction that has occurred.  I may pay you back or not. You never know So that is actually electronic transaction and that actually happens So the concept of you paying me the concept of you establishing my identity via receiving an email from me Which by the way is not something that you should trust probably SMTP is not the most secure thing in the world Those things are what actually happens in payments And I think we are still don't have a full solution to Model all that complexity technically in the web and that's one of the problems we're trying to deal with I think I actually oh Andrew that's 20 bucks. So we'll see if he does or does not get that money So we actually have a panel a question from the floor. So Alex Sexton. These are they go over there guys Hello full disclosure stripe employee so Oh, actually for the floor. Would you mind just explaining what stripe is just in cases stripe is a Company that currently does payments for the web. So I think we were in the first slide along with many other companies so I think me and my friends would all agree that Stuff like Ripple and Bitcoin is really cool and totally this cool federated way of doing payments but but the bootstrapping of of that System is is the blocker. I think right. So how do you get my parents to? Be able to deal with Bitcoin you're talking about you. I don't want to sign up for an account I don't do any of this stuff. I just want to hit this button and money changes hands And there aren't any of these old systems. So how do you rewire people's brains? To make this much more complicated system to them something that that makes sense at all I Think that the short answer is is ease of use right? I mean that's that's that that is the that is a killer app for all of these payment technologies is the ability to just go to any site click the buy now button You know be shown what you're going to buy and that's it right and it doesn't matter if you're using Google Wallet It doesn't matter if you're using Stripe or PayPal or anything They're all speaking a fairly similar payments protocol This is kind of what pay swarm the that universal payment standard is designed to do the idea here Is that yours your you have a common payments protocol that all of the sites use that's open non-proprietary W3C standard And then you can choose right you can pick and choose who you who's going to process your payments for you if it's going to be your bank Or if it's going to be Google Wallet if it's going to be PayPal And then the merchant can choose whoever they want to So I think that the way that you bootstrap this stuff is one through ease of use and then the second thing is you you have to You have to somehow convince vendors that this is worth doing and I think that's going to be incredibly difficult to do if Google Wallet Stripe PayPal don't join join on to the work right if they if they if they continue to do the proprietary We'll take one more comment from Robin them. Yeah, I do agree with actually with the point of the question I you know things like Bitcoin at such a just they're wonderful ideas But you know these things Only really five if they're starting from scratch. I mean, you know if you do it in a market like You know somewhere like developing countries like Kenya or whatever then actually you can make something happen very quickly So you've got a system like and PESA with 17 million users But most of those people never had a bank account in their lives So they just accept it as this is this is what it is for most of the developed markets that we're dealing with on a day-to-day Basis is a you know as a merchant like like the FT All these people have got their money in existing bank account stuck in this 1970s system And it's not going to come out quickly. So for me the practical solutions are about you know Mitigating that existing system and making it to something which is at least some way practical from a web payments point of view rather than Thinking about how we can start again through some some of these ideas, which are wonderful, but to some extent utopian From the perspective of you know today's business just quickly ripple ripples whole business plan is to get banks Yeah, we'll come to ripple in the in the next in the next couple of questions But interesting to what Rob said, I think one of the next questions is gonna make you touch on those utopian viewpoints a little bit So Teddy Kondi, I think we have the next question for us here. Thank you so this question kind of strikes close to home because I worked in publishing and media for Good majority of my career and I don't know if we'll have an answer to it in this forum because it's a Topic that has fundamental problems of his own However, I'll add a bit to it as well as read the question What payment model is the one that will will finally make quote-unquote old media profitable enough online? And how soon can we get to that and furthermore? Do you know of any media venues publishing houses that are doing this correctly and are actually profitable through? Through a payment model online I think Rob this this kind of hits in We've done it. It's fine So explain it to us Rob. What's it all about? well, the the sort of key thing is actually to be bold enough to charge for your product and Actually, the world is prepared to pay for for great content and I think we've established that quite successfully over the past five years that we've really pursued this policy of becoming a Company that generates the majority of its money from content rather from advertising if you look at FT comms Finances right now. We generate, you know in excess of 70% of our revenues from content I subscriptions of the vast majority of that paid digitally Through our subscriptions and That is not an indication that we lost all our advertising revenue In fact, our advertising grew over the period of time that we grew our subscriptions business It's a sign that actually if you have the right offering And you do work hard on the payment side you can build a very successful business around quality content online Fantastic, we've got a couple of questions from the floor. So Ali if you want to raise your hand That's kind of off topic now because I wanted to speak actually about the last topic. Is it okay to go back to that? Or would you rather continue moving forward? I? guess what what I was thinking was we mentioned like with the problem with More widespread adoption of Bitcoin being ease of use and I just like I had a gut reaction to disagree with that Because I think that a much bigger issue with it especially among an older crowd has to do with trust issues and you know Feeling that you know, they can trust these different sources and I was just kind of what I wanted to bring up And you know, I'm wondering kind of how you address that and how you make those older people feel more comfortable with these payment options Yeah, please I'm not sure that they'll ever be comfortable with them honestly I mean look at the supermarket when you're standing at the supermarket and how many older people use debit cards And how many are still writing checks, right? So it might be that that user behavior is so divergent that they won't get there But that doesn't mean that we should continue should not continue to push the envelope, right? Like I do believe that Bitcoin is going to be really challenging I do believe that from a usability perspective even when I read up on it and there's big warnings keep your wallet offline I was like, whoa, you know like and I'm a tech person, right? So the lay person is going to read that one line That's right on the Bitcoin website and they're going to run they're going to run as fast as they can so So it's a very this is a social issue as much as it's a payments issue and it's a trust issue So payments is that complex Ecosystem of a lot of different players and trying to make everyone happy is very challenging We do live in a period where the price of gold is at an all-time high Mainly because people don't trust Currencies full stop You know let alone new ideas like like Bitcoin And this you know this this is a really difficult complex issue for societies and economies as a whole Which people have been wrestling with for hundreds of years and and just kind of Introducing something new into that is not something that happens in a couple of months or a couple of years It can take decades hundreds of years to really establish a new currency properly Also, sorry was going to comment that actually in the payment list recently We've been actually talking about how this whole payments on the web thing should really be a bit more We will some of us think that they should be more like a two-phase approach It's essentially there's no open technology to basically do payments on the web at the moment And there's also the whole built-to-our currency thing Which at some point may arrive and actually I think there would be even government initiatives to this because it there's lots of benefits About issuing currency that is not physical But until that moment happens basically that doesn't mean that you cannot start with the first part of it Which is the okay? How about we have open technology to those payments on the web because sometimes and we have that thing in w3c where we basically go into Inventing problems that you cannot really solve not even in the existing system Imagine on the new system So we try to first have a system and then we try to add things like virtual currencies on it So this goes into the third question which came from Actually, Manu. I believe this is one of the questions that you originally asked So I will ask it for you Which it actually goes back to the Bitcoin and and ripple question Which is do they fit into the plan for web-based payments and should they be included as payment options? Or should they remain on the periphery? But it seems like what Riccardo is talking about now is they're already being considered as as being wrapped into the standards Yeah, and I really asked that question because I was more interested in the answer from the panelists, right? And I was I was wanted to be a bit more pointed with the question Are there definite plans to integrate alternative currencies into product lines like Google Wallet? Would Google Wallet ever consider adding Bitcoin or Ripple would you know Mozilla? Consider putting a Bitcoin wallet or just some kind of even a USD wallet directly into the browser So that when you get you know when you download a browser you've got preloaded ten dollars That you can spend online with it. You go to a website you click buy now and the payments made it's instantaneous Yeah, that's actually a quite interesting question so like I'm Manu said at the beginning lots of us are involved in this in this payment stuff and Riccardo and I from the operator space but Mozilla have taken a little bit of a different approach to this where they have said, you know We don't care who the payment provider is right. We're just giving you the option to pay Which is a very different stance in in in this space Yeah, I mean the thing with Bitcoin is you can already pay with Bitcoin on the web, you know There's already web-based wallets and so I mean Mozilla's MozPay API, which I think you're Referring to is just one of the ways you could pay in Firefox OS It's not the only way so any any any app and in Firefox OS can can take Bitcoin payments They would just you know need the JavaScript to do it They would need the online wallet in order to do it so it would just work But yeah, as far as MozPay A lot of people are interested in Incorporating Bitcoin, you know, it's already being asked by a lot of people They want to see that as a way to buy apps in the marketplace for sure whether or not it'll happen I don't know because it's it's it is tough. There's a lot of challenges While we are at it actually so that you get some of the data that we wanted to get how many people here actually own Bitcoin of any kind Because I mean we're like the geekies of the geek somebody here should have Bitcoin How many people have actually done a transaction with Bitcoin? Okay, and how many people when they bought Bitcoin actually when you mean you have Bitcoin you bought it either in Mongex or One of these basically the big exchanges. How many people are Mongex actually? Okay, then you use a smaller exchange Okay, how many people have lost their wallet and lost over over 10 to $15? There's the problem right there at least with Bitcoin cool Can we throw some questions to the floor? I think Marcus has got a question and At the front and this is quite a contentious topic So if you guys want to vote on the onslaid tool, that'll be great because it's a it's a strange one We don't we'd like a little bit more developer feedback on how people are feeling about particularly payment methods so Marcus, please Okay, this one. Sorry So money started the discussion kind of talking about people that don't have or are not in the old system So they're still using Real money, so paper money So one thing to notice like a lot of people don't want to move to digital money Even if they now need to or if they had to because they wanted to buy Service how would they enter this digital economy? You haven't really touched on that? mobile devices and M-Pesa is completely mobile based mobile devices are basically the way that a lot of people in emerging nations are Getting access to the web and I mean they have they have access to the largest Communication network that the faith that that mankind has ever known and if we build a financial protocol into that That's huge right. That is a that's a really big thing. You're treating. You're basically converting telcos into banks Hopefully it's going to be telcos and the banks and companies like Google and PayPal Everyone would have a level playing field to effectively be a financial institution to these people Okay, so that so that we know for example in Europe. There's actually a Green paper that has been discussed at the moment by European Union regarding What is the role of actually telcos regarding the whole payments industry? This is to regulate explicitly digital payments and one of the things That would have full consequences for telcos if it actually ended up being true because the moment that you're regulated as a financial product Then basically you don't have a prepaid phone account You have a value-added account that telcos is storing which means you could go to a shop and they should refund your money And things like that so it has a lot of implications regarding how do you handle money there? But also it also has a lot of advantages. So what in this I can actually give one anecdote, which is Luvia we do payments for different basically the back end that different stores connect to we do payments with Mozilla We do payments with Google and one of the things that happened in Google recently is that in the Android store WhatsApp, which is this famous. I am application recently decided to charge for subscriptions and what's up? Only what's up? triplicated our transactions during a period of time in Spain because people who had never entered their credit card in Google Wallet Decided to pay with their mobile account because they didn't want to enter the whole credit card thing They just said okay There's an option to actually pay with my phone that was the first time they saw the option pay with my phone probably because it was the first time that they actually paid and That thing really launched the transactions up. So actually shows that that percentage of population who probably was the only paid Transaction they ever did they actually use the mobile phone Okay, so I mean so I mean the question is so the larger question is you know you mentioned some of the implications There are tons of legal implications legal implications around this You know how are you guys gonna deal with that especially in a small community group? Yeah, right now It's actually it's a bit of a gray area because at the moment you for example when you charge something to your phone And then it gets into your bill and then your bill gets settled with your bank account in reality The operator never got hold of that money that money hasn't never gone to the operator It actually only settles when the bank pays me from your bank account So in reality your money has always been in your bank account. It's more like a virtual ledger what we are holding Yeah, but that's because that's 70% of it So you take for example a country this is a country like Spain where people have got morally contracts or UK There's countries like Brazil or most of Latin America where actually there's three phone plans basically There's boss pay the contract that you're used to and there's mixed that which is where I pay during a period of time So I say I pay five euros and I'm like in a contract for a week that kind of thing So when you're in those system most people are prepay on those markets by the way And what they do is that they actually they pay their bill on a shop they go to a shop They get a coupon and they load their phone.  Oh, there we go for easy Hi, I think part of this question comes from our host Andrew Betz.  Okay, so Yeah, the one-click payment thing is quite interesting And it was one of the things that I was quite blown away with Google I owe this year and Cindy This is something that you work on, right? Yep. So, I mean, this is a common problem Users go to hundreds of different forms and fill out the exact same information So that was kind of the hypothesis between the behind request auto complete Which is the new web standard initiative that Chrome is Implementing and part of that initiative Unfortunate to be able to be part of it because they are integrating Google Wallet as a payment option in addition to Chrome Autofill data, but it's that concept that users are filling out the same exact information again and again And again, they don't necessarily want to hand it over to 50 different merchant websites So why does not the browser as the container hold that information for them and provide it to the different merchant websites on their behalf? so now request auto complete is obviously Dedicated to that true payments use case it is providing the user's Information to complete the transaction so in terms of and a minute and I'm I cannot pronounce You know that that gets challenging in payments period So that's an interesting thread that I was surprised hasn't come up sooner because that is one of the biggest changes between those 1970s technologies and kind of what is coming out today because there are tons of regulations around Payment companies and once you're regulated you have to monitor for you know depending on changes country by country But there's anti-money laundering. There's Initiatives that governments put in place really for consumer safety that with this anonymous new digital currency You lose so that's the definitely the identity Thread is an interesting one You will not be able to be anonymous when you do a payment online It is going to be highly highly highly unlikely your government will let that happen Unless unless you rise up and change it, but if we look at history that doesn't happen So actually I have a I have a quick question to go over and talking about one quick payment Will is this part something that Firefox OS or Mozilla are looking at generally and then what if a user decides to do the To opt-in to do not track and then with that then how does that work? Oh, yeah No, it's fine. I mean yeah one tap payments are definitely something that you know MozPay wants to support Firefox marketplace wants to support it That doesn't mean it'll work for everybody So that's a really hard or much harder problem to solve Amazon already does one click payment one click payments. I mean, it's obviously very possible on the web It's very easy to do. I think in the short term Request autocomplete is the best way to get there. I think that you know That's just the reality of the web right now is that every place, you know It takes a credit card form and you know care billing is a little bit more complicated But with credit cards you can have request autocomplete securely store your credit card number and it's two clicks Maybe but you could just tap the button and say that that yes Fill in my credit card and you're done And you know that's going to be a big win for both sides for consumers and for the merchants because on mobile Especially it's really hard to enter in your credit card And if you do it once on one side and if you have to do it, you know infinite number of times for each other side That's gonna really suck So I disagree Partially I think you're right in that it is and you were very specific you said it in the short term That's probably gonna be the best solution of quest autocomplete and I totally agree with that but I think that is And I don't think anyone on the panel believes this but I think it would be incredibly Incredibly short-sighted for us to stop there to say that this is the way it should be for the next five or ten years We really need to fix the whole like credit card numbers given to every single merchant you visit on the website or on the web Issue, right? I mean how many people in here would tell your users? I think you should use the exact same password for every single financial account that you have in whatever you go to a Website whenever you want to spend money you give them your password That's your credit card number jump in and that's where the Google wallet Integration with request autocomplete especially on the Chrome side does close that hole because we do use the virtual tokens So we do protect that users true credit, but it's proprietary to good, right? It is okay. We probably should take But we are open to integration with other browser menu, okay, we need to take some we need to take some questions from the floor And Chennai Chennai Chennai, so yeah somebody can pass Chennai and Mike, please So I guess this my question kind of relates to the debate that kind of is this going on But I we've been talking about responsiveness like see clients and it's great when we move to a world where yeah There is an open web standard for payments, but that right now. It's not that it's very fragment to everyone's trying to push a one You know one-click solution to payments you have you know Amazon you have stripe Everyone's putting a button on your pacing pay with me and so now we're in like the for developers We you know how our payment form is just now cluttered with pay with everything, right? So is there like kind of a strategy for developers that in the way that we're not you know cutting into our margins because we're not You know giving the user the payment method they want how do we kind of like balance that? It's just a web intense Endorse that coming because I mean you know referring back to the last answer so many of these solutions for one-click payment Are essentially proprietary and when you look at it from a merchants point of view what it amounts to is this sort of small Goods board of different payment solutions that one by one you have to kind of integrate with your With your own systems and each one just delivers like a tiny fraction of extra payments and you know for a merchant like us which is operating Across borders. I mean we have subscribers in 150 countries This is just a nightmare because many of these solutions only work in one or two or a select number of territories And it's it's completely impractical We are so far away from a one-click solution Which will operate seamlessly around the globe for for any merchant really at the moment And that's what that's what we really need to make things work Yeah, I was going to talk about something around the intense model to be able to say I just want to pay and then it's just your chosen payment method comes through But this is very similar along the lines of what Facebook tried with credits, right? And then they came up against the foreign exchange problem, which anyone who's worked in the financial markets for knows just a complete nightmare So Yeah, any other thoughts on this topic? Yes, so I think Cindy and Kamara probably never gonna talk to me again after this panel Yes, I know and by the whole tube so I I Think the best thing that web developers can do is put some pressure on Google and and Mozilla and paypal and stripe and tell Them that you want some kind of unified payment mechanism. That's not proprietary on the web I mean, I think that I honestly think that that is the best thing for the web right now And I really in your heart of hearts. I think you you you agree, right? I mean we Everything everything What I think is really interesting what's really interesting about that is is Mozilla and Google are our browser vendors And I actually don't think that we have a lot of leverage to do this. I think it needs to come to do You do I was I was in Dubai at a banking conference with all the major world banks And they are absolutely terrified of technology companies coming in and stealing their customers You have so much power to change this I am I'm being you have so much power to change this Okay, let's let's move back to the questions from the floor Steve Here if we can get another might Yeah, I guess it was really just a question about what Manu said that I I can't be anonymous on the web in the physical world I can go and pay with something cash and be Completely anonymous Why would I want to give up? I mean, why should I give up that anonymity that I currently have in a physical world? It's a very good question. You shouldn't if you don't want to but I think it's I mean, you know, we're dealing with the width I Mean, you know, there's a lot of information that's collected for on us on the web If you don't want that information collected on you don't get on the web I mean, you know, we've got we've got issues with prism the NSA We know how easy it is to tap this stuff It's very easy to track it even Bitcoin which is supposed to be the pseudo anonymous protocol People have been able to track down, you know spending habits who's who's spending money So for example, if someone steals your Bitcoin wallet that money can't ever be used really because if it's used Then and it's and it's tracked down to a shipping address Then they can find you right you report your wallet is stolen and any money coming out of that wallet can be tracked to the person That that made of any kind of physical purchase, but this brings me back to the whole do not track thing I'm still really quite interested to know about how this would work with a mozpay system On Firefox OS because they're pushing so much for that I wait for the most pay one if I can add only one thing to this the problem as we're saying before is basically the Whole payments is based on risk and trust and in this case what you're saying what you're doing in a financial transaction in cash With somebody is that the issuer the person who's generating the funds aka you is making a transaction with a merchant Which is at the same time They acquire this person and this transaction occurs on something that we both trust aka government money because we both think that That is actually valuable money. So this transaction has occurred between us You actually gave away your identity you gave away your identity to this person who actually can recognize you And he thought that this was enough to establish trust So that's why they accepted your money in the digital world The problem is that this person is a server down there and you are a browser somewhere down here And that trust has got to be established between you too before those funds get changed from your bank to their bank And that's kind of the problem is that at that moment the issuer that other person that acquirer is going to only trust Something and in general like Google will perfectly trust your Google wallet account paypal will perfectly trust your PayPal account and Mozilla will trust whichever account you actually have got to be configured in most pay But Google won't accept your PayPal identity as being a valid identity. That is where the problem comes Because they don't establish trust based on the other identity Excellent. We probably should actually move forward. So Tom see if you've oh, okay. Good. There we go Thanks, I think if we if I can distinguish between anonymity and Confidentiality Somebody's coming to the library to pay a 25 cent fine for an overdue book and we don't want anybody to know We know who that person is Because we know you checked out the book, but I don't want anybody else to know that you paid a fine on it Is there a way I can do that online for 25 cents? No Yes, I mean not yet. I Well, I think there is right if you use Bitcoin to do it And it's and you create a one-off wallet you could do that payment, but I mean that's really it's it's very difficult to do that Technically possible not very feasible, which I think is the answer is is the answer. They were giving it's not very It's not a good user experience Some of the stuff is not about the technology that I think governments around the globe are Attacking and anonymity in the financial system on all fronts for issues of taxation money laundering, etc And I don't think that effort is is going to stop and as we you know as we move into an electronics payments world I don't think they're going to allow big channels of an anonymous payments whether it's technically possible or not All right, we should move on now I'm liking what people are managing to get on the we have money bags and Scrooge McDark This is the end of the day humor and my Scrooge McDark. Brilliant. That's fantastic I kind of wish that was the case unfortunately not so Matt Andrews. Have you stick up your hand for the next question, please This is another anonymous question. I think it's probably been done to death, but here we go What are the possibilities for decentralized peer-to-peer payments and what security considerations are involved in doing this? So decentralized peer-to-peer payments and what security considerations are involved in doing this going back to a similar thing Kumar do you want to start us off on this? Sure I think well I've been sort of in the realm of Firefox OS which is a mobile operating system and it's really hard on mobile devices to do something to get to a decentralized place like that we would need Like a the web crypto API to land so that we can make sure that things are Very secure and even in memory are secure And there's there's so many And another API which is coming is to access a secure element on on certain SIM cards where you can actually do Sort of public key exchange type of things all those Technologies are needed, but at the end of the day you could still root a device You know if you if you were to steal it and then you could get access to a lot of things So I think it I think we're pretty far off from but I think there's That's what would need to happen. It would have to be something that's you know It would have to be this bulletproof device because you know also if it's completely decentralized that means that You're paying with a device and let's say it's Bitcoin or something And it's not backed up on a server because it's decentralized You might lose that device and then you lose all your money And maybe there's some way to distribute that across many nodes. I don't know but yeah hard problem Sort of against the cloud pattern that seems to be happening with lots of things. I guess any other I mean you you can you can aren't they're already Decentralized peer-to-peer payment systems on the web right Bitcoin and Ripple Ripple or two of them You can use them they're they're online wallets You have to be able to get to some website to run the transaction, but the protocols work, right? I mean the Bitcoin's been under attack since it ever came out and and by really smart people in in crypto Insecurity areas and no one's really broken the protocol. So I think they're they're here It's just the idea of it being integrated directly into the browser is It's probably I would expect that it would never happen, right? Or at least not for the next 10 to 15 years because the risk you run when you Put it into a browser is you have to end up supporting it forever And I don't think any of the browser and I don't think it would be smart for any of the browser vendors to build That technology in right now, which is why you know the Firefox marketplace and telephonic art art are taking the approach They are on these API's are trying to be very generic and not trying to be king makers when it when it comes to Payment technologies It's the right way to do it Fantastic, let's take another question. So Adam Sontag if you're in the room I think he's over So This is an anonymous question that at the request of Jake archibald. I have Mildly reformatted into rhyming verse so One question that still needs distilling is what's the feasibility of operator billing and given that cell phone For phones prefer Wi-Fi to sell will I have to forget this network to buy and sell? Very impressive by the way, so my my skill is not enough to actually answer you in births. I'm afraid but Definitely I mean operator billing is something that is widely used now We are also in the middle of for people who are not familiar with in the middle of a change of technology So we went from premium SMS, which is essentially I charging you for an SMS message very clunky had lots of messages Really high revenue share for the operator because it was a really old technology used to sell ringtones and things like that so not as good to direct operator billing which is essentially you make a call to an API which is more 24 hello for 21st century and Basically you send me an amount and a phone number and the phone number acts as basically the user account That is working now. It's actually you can pay with that in Google You can pay in RIM in Nokia in blue be a work with we work with at least 20 something different providers They including Mozilla and basically that is what modern operator billing is about The problem that I see in modern operator billing is that modern operator billing was operator billing was thought to be something that you Negotiate with an operator So you negotiate without to then you go and negotiate with but a phone then you go and negotiate with telephonica and The problem there is that you have to close one account for each of these things So one of the things that we actually try to solve with blue be a is to give to the telephonica group Just one connection for all those billings So do what visa does in the case of banks where you're made you basically take visa payments, right? You don't take Lloyd's not West Barclays and what not don't know what payments you take payments from a network So I think that is the step that we have missing but actually you can do charges to a phone number now That we want technology one of the problems is those this this issue of being over Wi-Fi is that you can't an operator Cannot recognize you as a user if you're right if you're on a Wi-Fi network, correct You only need to know what's the phone number of the user and that can happen in a one-time transaction Which is for example, how Google does it is how Mozilla does it basically if you are Operators have multiple ways of recognizing what phone number you're in for a start. You're connected to a base station So we if you are giving you service, we know your number So if there's if you're connected to the normal network You can identify the user through the network if they're connected in Wi-Fi then you do a fall back to SMS Which normally is either you send an SMS to the device with a code Or you make this the device send you an SMS and then you receive it in both cases You establish what is the number of the user and then you can just use that again and again We have a specific API built for this in Blubia in other operators You have to do it more manually, but you can do that and to be clear You can do it again and again because it just stores a cookie on device I mean the cookie lasts 30 days or something like that and when you're on Wi-Fi it reads the cookie So it knows that you're authenticated Okay, so Can I be Montgomery burns, please? Awesome It's getting better right and we only have five minutes left So I kind of want to close on a we have a room of technologists here And and I'd like to I'd like to focus on a little bit of the standards a little bit of the what we can do So if we just go round and have a little bit of a chat of well if you could all say Give one minute on what we could do as developers to push to the ideal payment solution and Cue Mars. I'm afraid I'm gonna start with you sure as developers or Yeah, that's a tricky one. I do think as I mentioned before I think To really have a sort of federated payment system where anyone can pay with any currency And any merchant can accept money from anywhere I think something needs to come some API needs to be agreed upon and implemented by banks or something Maybe a clearinghouse in front of banks and I don't think that browser vendors can do that So I have strayed from the topic of what developers can do. I still don't know what developers Ricardo Well, I think that for a start we have to add more realistic expectations. I think in all of this I think there's judging from the world that we didn't work where you try to do a Mobile billing in this case for 40 something operators across the globe and this includes Asia and Africa and Latin America There's no way you can sink all of those things is too big a problem However, you can start in a smaller area. So you take something like the European Union The European Union is about to standardize on a series of measures called sepa You could do in theory some hub for the European Union with a specific protocol that works across all the providers in the European Union Obviously won't work in Latin America. It won't work in China, but it's something So we start trying to standardize there and we try to push for a standard API or a standard way that different providers can implement That there which is how it normally happens banks didn't go and try to standardize on this sepa thing worldwide They standardize in the European Union more or less and then let's see how it extends Or you do two networks and then we talk a common protocol among our networks That would be fine. The thing is that you need those initial solutions to be there So request autocomplete or must pay our initial Trice of getting to that standard API just use them feed back to them into saying I'm lacking these things So request autocomplete doesn't support our billing must pay We're going to do another iteration now which everything that we have just feed back to that and start with that smaller goal before we get to the bigger goal I'm actually very excited about some of the things that Ricardo is talking about I believe fundamentally that the solutions are going to be mobile based ultimately You know, there are or we're almost at the point where they're more mobile devices than people On the planet. There are far more people with mobiles than there are with bank accounts for example and if some of the things that Ricardo is talking about I the development of a network and A sort of global standard network for payments across may major mobile operators can develop then I can see how a merchant like us Can take payments on mobile devices Potentially from a marketplace of billions of people around the globe and that's very very exciting And if you think about it what you've got there is a chain All these devices in some way are linked up to a source of value whether that's a bank account or whether that's a prepay or whatever The the chain of value is already there if you can create the the standard across the top of it Maybe starting in the EU or the US or whatever Which then a merchant like us can then hook into that can deliver the solution And I don't think you have to think about utopian scenarios in order to get there It's it's not difficult to see how this this step can be taken Yeah, so from My point of view, I think that's an important issue Lots of people lots of users think about what would be great for the users And and I think the way that you're gonna get the thing that you want as a user is to influence from a Merchant standpoint or from the bank standpoint or from the standardization standpoint and that's my takeaway Is that okay? If you want your user goals you go for it But you put a slant on it and sell it up to those other people that Makes them think that they're getting something when you're actually getting something and that's the way to get what you want So our lifestyle tips and Manu go for it So Anybody in here that's interested in payments the thing that you could do is join the web payments group join the discussion It's completely open anyone can join and participate educate yourself about it and help us actually Figure out what standards to build right what to build that that you can you can use the other point I wanted to kind of make is playing off of kumar's, you know a bank bank based thing I did spend the last week at the World Banking Conference in Dubai No bank is working on this. I guarantee you I had high-level high-level low-level all kinds of discussions with them The standard bank system is written in Kobal or Fortran. It was implemented in 1987 not to through 1992 they're still running that code base They are absolutely mortified of doing any kind of large change to their system So this solution is not going to come from the banks. It could come from the mobile operators. It could come from The the people like Google wallet PayPal stripe But at some point all of us are going to have to band together in some kind of clump and push something forward It's definitely not going to be the banks that do that though So throw yourself into the standardization and finally Cindy real quick because I know everyone's ready to be done So no just really use mows pay use request autocomplete even though it is technology from the 70s It is what everyone is still using and there's plenty of room to improve that 70s technology Experience on the web as we try and lay a foundation and segue into more you know different technologies But definitely request autocomplete mows pay participate. We are trying to make it better Okay, excellent. So that's all stone. Thank you so much to the panelists and