Look good morning So today I am going to talk about some of the research that we've been doing at NDSU On the soil health impacts of integrating livestock into our crop systems. Just I'm not going to talk about the forage and like and livestock production pieces we have that data, but We're going to probably be close on time the way it is just talking about the soil health piece of it And so in addition to myself involved with this research is Erin Gogler She's actually speaking this week or during the conference as well And she's a PhD student working on this research and We wouldn't we wouldn't have gotten through a lot of this project without her where we're we're working with The current project we're working on is working with six different producers and at two of our RECs And so she is very very busy and helped keep us on track Especially during the drought when I was pulled other directions We're collaborating with Dr. Kevin Sadovic the director at the Central Grasslands Research Extension Center and our range Our range specialist with an extension and then Caitlyn Landis. She is our She's also a graduate student on this work. She's else and our extension agent in Grand Forks County So just kind of recapping those those soil health benefits of having cover crops And I think most people know these they're pretty straightforward and Well documented well published But the first one is just having that soil covered prevents and reduces of both wind and water erosion And then that benefits to biodiversity and that we can look at that a few different ways of biodiversity within our cropping system Bringing in different types of soil microbes different plants that function differently have different by soil biology that goes with them we can look at in terms of plant diversity within that system which kind of pairs well with that soil Diversity and then actually providing habitat and food for wildlife and Then soil structure, which I think is a lot of things a lot of people are interested in soil health benefits increased aggregate stability Helps aerate the soils in some cases and Penetration penetrating compaction layers which we see in that bottom photo there when we have some of those brassicas Have that that deep tap rope that can help us break up those compaction layers in the top photo We can see that a good increased aggregate stability here where we have a lot more large agar dates and our the soils better aerated We'll have better infiltration in that soil Also as can touched on is that we can cover crops help feed our soil organism increasing that biology and that functioning of that soil increasing with bringing in different fungi bacteria which are going to provide different types of carbohydrates and and that can help Release our nitrogen and phosphorus that may be tied up and in those soils or some of that organic matter in those soils They cover crops increase earthworms. Is that good? Is that bad depends who you ask and what system you're in probably So earthworms good in terms they aerate they can help with soil aggregation earthworms. Are they native to North America? Not all of them. And so there's that if we get into our grazing rangeland system Probably we don't want to see earthworms there because they don't belong there They actually can disrupt at our plant or ecology and ecosystem there because they're releasing nutrients That will benefit some of our invasive grass species that and and maybe have a negative impact on our native plant species That thrive in low nutrient environments and then they can build soil carbon Which is needed to create organic matter and kind of plays into that aggregate stability is that organic matter is important for Developing that aggregate stability to enhancing that water holding capacity and holding that nitrogen in place so that it's not leaching out of that system cover crop adaptation. It's becoming more important more and more interesting adapting cover crops across the US Fortunately, I don't have more recent data than this. This is the most recent data from USDA between 2012 and 2017 there was a 50% increase in and cover crop adaptation across the United States And that was a that equaled 15.4 million acres and here we're in our region. No, we're doing all right. We're kind of at the in the topper upper between that 150,000 500,000 acres but if we look at that in terms of That acre harvestable acreage in those counties excluding alfalfa We're actually only one to five percent on average of those acres that are incorporating cover crops So there's definitely some room for improvement there So what do cover crops provider or what don't cover crops or provider soils? We've talked about or Provide in general. I mean we talked about those benefits into To the soils, but what's the gap? What's keeping people from incorporating cover crops into their system? Any thoughts? A lot of it's just there's no immediate economic return We're putting money into those cover crops, but there's there's not a Immediate benefit and it takes a few years to even see those soil health benefits And so is it worth that investment? And I think that's where our livestock come into play is that we get an immediate return when we incorporate livestock because they are able to utilize that forage and Benefit and we get an economic return from investing in that cover crop then And so kind of the other thing that does so we got the feed for those livestock and they are loving it this is from one of our research trials and then the livestock Actually speed up the rate in which those nutrients that organic matters broke broken down in that system because it's passing through that cow and Coming out in the form of manure and urine which are more readily available in terms of urine and our nitrogen's much more readily available in urine And then manure is stable a form and compared to some of the other forms that would be in that system and Then also with those livestock There's different type of biology that's going to come in in soil biology is going to be introduced when we introduce those species With with the cattle and the livestock and then that benefits our crop growth and for subsequent crops And we're going to touch on all of that today So in North Dakota alone. This is from USDA crop acreage reports from 2019 to 2021 we've seen an increase in 26,000 acres for The annual crops that were planted with livestock in mind so either for a forage or for grazing We seen that decline last year but I believe that had a lot to do with the 2.4 million acres of Prevented plant that we had in the state and knowing that we don't I don't have numbers on that I haven't seen that reported anywhere that a lot of that did get planted to cover crops because of the flexibility That has now been introduced into the prevented plant Policy and RMA allowing allowing them to be used for livestock forage feed without a penalty Before November 1st because after the November but previously that November 1st is the livestock producer, you know That's not there's not any quality there and so Was it worth it then at that time? But now we can harvest those forage use those forages when they're a good quality for those animals How many of you do have livestock? Great now I know who to ask questions to So I'm gonna talk about four different projects and Really probably most of the results come from our current Sarah project So we have a soil. There's a soil health and livestock performance project that was done at the Central Grasslands Research Center in Streeter And this one used mixed species cover crop following a cash crop So basically dual cropping system where they had the crash crop then they put in the cover crop and graze the cover crop and Then I'm not going to talk about this research, but it is available I kind want to make you aware of it that they've been doing We've been doing a lot of research on winter cereals and full season cover crops and just like species selection What's the quality of those? What's the production of those? What's the best fit depending where you are in the region? The current project that I'm going to focus on a lot is the grazing management impacts on a full season cover crop So there's a lot of research on grazing or not grazing a cover crop Not so much. And how do we manage those livestock in that system? So we looked at two different things stock density with a high stock Density more animals per unit area and less animals per unit area same stocking rate But hoping that that would influence nutrient distribution across those fields We're still looking at that data that part that piece of the project is really hard for us to replicate Because a lot of the livestock producers are working with didn't have enough animals to get that impact on the fields that we were working on Because they were working on 28 or fields to graze and we did strip graze But even that just didn't we didn't get that density. We're hoping to get the other piece. We looked at was utilization rate So kind of that take half leave half of 50% use are Take everything out there. And how does that influence our soil health? Then the second project is actually the same project with a little another component added to it where instead of We just had the full season cover crop we graze This other project after they were done grazing the full season cover crop They put in a winter cereal that the graze in the spring. So two grazing periods and No crop cash crop on both projects. We did this for two years And then we put corn in as a cash crop this year just to look at that Economic and how does that and it benefit our crop production system potentially? So those are pro that that project is probably where is gonna be where most of our focus is today because that's what I have the most data on When I talked about the grazing utilization for cover crops on I know when somebody said we Here's you say take everything out there take everything out there that the cow can actually get It's a lot different than actually taking everything out there So this is actually what it looked like when we're done with our grazing period So this is our 50% harvest efficiency which are 50 full use Which this is that this is our take everything. So we calculated that after off of a 50% harvest efficiency Pass that cows weren't really grazing. They're starting to lose. We don't want to push them harder than that And then this is our take half leave half which was calculated off of a 35% harvest efficiency So basically 35% of what's out there is available for forage use and 50% What that what was out there for total production was available for grazing in these two systems? But you can see there's not really much difference in ground cover There's there's a little bit of more tall height here, but it's an overall ground cover protection It's pretty good in both in both situations here in both scenarios The only exception was one year. We've had it got snowed and it got wet So then we had a little bit more of an impact because of that getting trampled and incorporated By the livestock before we could pull them off So we went out no So and I can share this you reach out to me I can help with these calculations Unfortunately, we don't have simple curves. We had to go out cover crops, especially because we had an eight-way mix Productions highly variable. So we went out we clipped what was out there to the ground and then we Calculated 30 dried it down and then 35% of our 35 or 55 or 50% of that dry matter was available for grazing then and we estimated off of an an intake of 1,200 pounds per animal and that was just that's not their traditional stocking If you're Cal you on range land we use 913 but we've noticed with our research that cows have higher intake on cover crops And so we have adjusted that to match that Yeah, if you want any of that data, I'm happy to share how we how we calculated that and hopefully we'll in the future be able to develop some growth curves and estimates, but it's just so tricky because We put this in but what grew did this get too deep then yeah There's just so many unknowns in cover crops right now and this is a trial We're just getting started so I don't have any data for this But I wanted to talk about it because I'm really excited about this one So all the other ones are full season fall grazing this one is looking at rye management in a soy soybean production system We have a no rye treatment a rye only only with no grazing a Rye that's going to be spring only grazing Which is what most people do in in northern plains and then we're going to do all grades So we're going to graze we great we graze this fall and then we'll graze again this spring It's this fall fortunately was so dry We got like two to five days of grazing it was limited But that we want to get that grazing impact and see what that impact has on that sand of the next spring and hopefully in a normal Growing season if we encounter one We'll have more production and be able to graze a little bit more out there And this one we're actually looking at soil biology There isn't any studies out there that look at soil biology when we're in incorporate livestock yet, but we're Looking at that component in this study So what I'm going to talk about today then is the soil physical properties bulk density aggregate stability infiltration and Chemical properties I'm going to focus on the key nutrients nitrogen phosphorus potassium and organic matter and This is very data heavy, so I apologize for that, but this is the dual cropping systems the left first study and This is bulk density across the three years of the study We have our single crop and the dual cropping and you see that there is no Significant difference in these two years and this year. We actually seen a little bit of a benefit or a lower bulk density Due to on that livestock treatment or like raised treatment similar in our current study is That with these bars when they overlap it means we're not different So there's no difference between our we had cover crop only the 50% or lower use The full use and we have an annual crop system here So no difference between those On in terms of bulk density or compaction. I know that's always a question we get in the northern plains and There's lots of research that shows us that we don't see a compaction issue when we live integrate livestock in the fall Because we're going to go through that freeze thought cycle that's going to break up that compaction I mean exception would be if you have high clays and it's wet when you're grazing you might see see some impacts But that's more likely in the spring actually so we hopefully learn more on with our ride trial and some If there's any impacts on that we're spring grazing Water infiltration. This is highly was highly very well in this study. We had working with six producers across six counties There's lots of variability in the soils we're working with and so lots of variability But there is no significant difference across our cover crop only our two grazing treatments And then the annual crop system lots of variate but the ability but not significantly different In terms of water of infiltration on both sides This now we're looking at aggregate stability. This is that dual cropping system where they had a cash crop and then the the cover crop that they grazed and we seen across the Across by the end of the treatment or the end of the project that we had a Significant increase in aggregate stability on our two grazing treatments and a greater increase on that full use Grazing treatment in comparison to our on graze and this was still cover crop. It just wasn't grazed This is our current study. I did add so we have this is an annual our traditional or annual annual crop And this is our baseline and then this was this fall or the spring when we measured again And so that did there was an increase I'm not sure what the increase was is probably a function of what plants were planted there I mean, then here's our integrated crop baseline across all sites and then our different treatments and so it didn't significantly increase or decrease From our grazing treatments, but you'll see that we have an increase in our macro Aggregates so those larger aggregates that are more stable And so that is a definitely a positive and that we were we see Across these treatments. So either what you either have no Impact or we have a positive impact in terms of aggregate stability looking moving on soil nutrients and this is that first study again with the dual cropping and We had a year effect were nitrogen But it wasn't a treatment. So there was no differences between treatments your effect probably lightly related to Climate which is what we see for our current study as well the we there was a significant increase in phosphorus for our 50% use Grazing treatment and potassium for our full use grazing treatment This is our current study. We haven't ran stats yet, but can I kind of look at the increases this first year 2020 the baseline year for all of these is Following a traditional fertilizer application and In 2019 so we would still have that residual effect of that application Where during our study we did not add additional fertility So there was no fertility added in 2020 2021 or 2022 across these sites Except for the traditional because that was just business as usual So right away you're looking at this. You're like, oh, this is didn't help at all And that's what we were thinking like then I remembered but this has a fertility And so nitrogen was highly variable. You see we had an increase initially and then a decrease and Does anyone know why that might have happened? So it's because of our drought that started in 2020 and lasted it We even this spring when we sample we were still in in our drought conditions. So that influences our nitrogen availability And then also I the changes of the form of the other the nitrogen that we Had are seen and being more bound up in our organic matter, which we'll look at as well but we've seen our Across our treatments that the phosphorus actually was either at or above our baseline levels without without that fertility and Potassium increased throughout the study and Above our requirements well above This is I just want to kind of show a different way of looking at the same data for this study So 2020 is that predict our baseline year in 2022 and what I want to show here is that we've had a lot of variability We had different we tried to keep soils types the same but because we were covering such a large geographic region We had similar ones, but not the same Also, you can see we had it's really high pre Pre-treatment nitrogen one of our farmers had Chickpeas planted the year before so we were seeing that residual impact of that legume there in in our samples So there's just there is a lot of factors a lot of variability that goes into on-farm research And that's what showing up up in some of our data here Phosphorus we did same thing Not quite as much but still variable We did see again that trend for overall our average increase over time And this line here is the requirement for a hundred eighty bushel corn in Eastern in Eastern, North Dakota, but non-irrigated Which is just a little bit over a hundred And then same thing for potassium except here's our requirements here. So we're well above requirements This is for the the same study where we incorporated those winter annuals And in this study, they're actually haying as well. So what's that removal of that cover crop? How does that influence our night our nutrient dynamics? and so nitrogen we actually seen a Significant increase when that full-use grazing treatment compared to our other three treatments here Phosphorus there's the other ones. There's no significant difference So there's some trends, but no significant differences here Same for potassium soil organic matter Here's our pre treatments levels and we seen our grazing treatments increased by about point seven five percent in just over two years our cover crop only increased by about point five percent and There was a slight increase as well and just the traditional croppings in that traditional cropping system of around point two five percent, but point seven five percent in two years is pretty good in terms of Organic matter response and this is in topsoil. We did look at six to twelve inches But that just it takes longer to see that impact there And this is that other one of the winter annual incorporated and you see that when we were moving that Forge it's really impacting that organic matter component because we don't have that residue that's breaking down into that system This is what I think is really cool about this data Definitely even though we didn't see that that nitrogen boost in this past year This is from our Fargo study location and since this was on campus. We can manage things a little bit more And so we actually added a split-plot fertilizer application because of fertilizer prices just to see How did that play into things and what was that benefit and so these are our no graze here? This is no graze and no fertilizer This is no graze plus fertilizer and then these second bars in each color are the There's no fertilizer. So this is our high high stock density This is our moderate stock density which were applied accurately at this location and you can see that When we add that grazing component It had a similar impact is have as are no grazing but fertilizer similar performance similar yield so I think that's pretty cool to see that and Then here's just what those those ears looked like for those for that same chart So we have that no graze no fertilizer Our 50% use no fertilizer, but high stock density 75% in the high stock density So very very similar and so I think that's really powerful is that economic potential economic savings there So two years prior of grazing so we did two years grazing treatments and then this this spring we planted the corn yeah so kind of in a summary of the findings from the research that we've been conducting is that Incorporating livestock either has a neutral impact or positive impact on our soil physical and chemical properties and To me what this says is because all these studies were two to three years We really need more long-term research and data on the impacts of Incorporating livestock into our cropping systems and how that influences our soil health and those properties and Kind of that trend shows that integration of livestock has that potential to enhance soil health and in higher use may actually increase these benefits Integrating livestock can create a return on farmers investments and in those cover crops I think that's really a big piece that's that economic return not only from maybe those the benefits and savings and fertilizer but actually having that forge and extending your grazing season and Minimizing the feet the dry lot feeding period Grazing cover crops can reduce winter feeding costs and other costs some you know if we're grazing rye We're extending that spring grazing period grazing us fall in We can get rid of some of those late fall winter feeding costs We had one of our producers he grazed into late December one year because he had such high production and as heard wasn't huge So we had they were out there a long time And It can lead to an increase in crop production and yields potentially the other thing I want to talk of touch on is There we learned a lot of lessons in this project about integrating a livestock and there's definitely lots of challenges that go with that And we just maybe show us some very challenging years to work in so 2020 we started we had too much moisture and Right away and challenging planting conditions And then we had some of our sites got planted too deep and we didn't have our brass cuz represented in that and so that influenced the nutritional quality the other thing that happened in 2020 is we had a Frost a hard frost on September 5th and so that tanked the quality of our cover crop and our livestock we were only grazing cows so that helped but In terms of meeting their requirements. It was much more challenging and I think in those situations We need to evaluate Supplementation and make sure that we're meeting those needs of those animals with cows not as big of a deal Especially at that state the stage of production they were in but if we were had yearlings on there Something that's needing to grow and gain. We need to make sure that we are supplementing and meet and meeting their needs Then we had 2021 which even more fun We didn't know if our cover crop was going to grow and then thankfully it was a full season and we got rains and Something took off and we actually had were able to graze at all our locations But we ran into even though we weren't applying fertility ran into nitrate toxicity on some of our sites So then we had to adjust our grazing Approach that for that to make sure that those animals were safe We weren't having abortions or things like that from those nitrate levels And so that was I think that's any thing the same thing that you're gonna encounter when you're grazing is You had to be prepared for those unknowns if you have something that's a nitrate accumulator test It's just better to know what you have and it doesn't cost much to test 20 max around $20 to test for nitrates So definitely worth just sending that in knowing what you're dealing with it knowing that your animals are safe We also had water issues on one of our producers Use this lake to water for his livestock. We were like, okay, we trust you and He lost a cow because of sulfate so we had to stop grazing that treatment because that water wasn't Was too dangerous for those animals to use So there's definitely a lot of planning that goes into this and and then you know that strip grazing is a little extra work, but definitely see benefit in terms of Efficiency of use and there's data out of Nebraska that shows those numbers of Additional grazing days that you get When you're grazing with a strip grazing system because you're not they're not trampling as much and not picking up the things They like best and then coming back across and grazing other things, but that's that's extra work and it all takes time and labor so there's Definitely lots of variables when we graze cover crops and and we always want to have a backup plan So that's really that's that's all I had to share I'm hoping we'll have some discussion and you guys have any questions on on the data that we've we've gathered so far Yep so it's gonna in what happens around route is Especially if you've applied those that nitrogen it's just gonna sit there until those plants have Some type of water they can't mobilize and use it unless there's moisture available But also it affects the availability of that nitrogen too So that's where the toxicity came from is that those plants when they're stressed They accumulate they accumulate nitrogen and it can reach toxic thresholds because it's accumulating it But it's not growing properly because it doesn't have adequate moisture so it can take it up But it can't use it and so that's what happens in those situations We didn't in the first year and then we added it and Since it wasn't on farm we let the producer do what they wanted to do Whatever you felt comfortable with that's something that is that Carlson our new beef nutritionist and I have talked about is doing some more research looking at supplementation in our cover crop systems Because that's definitely another gap out there in that research But just the quality data we call it we've collected it was yeah, I mean it was all dried. It was it was not it was not good It was bad I know it was it was it was really bad timing on our part, but So we don't have any for this project, but we are doing some other cover crop stuff And we'll we'll probably it will implement some of these same treatments just because we need just because of that lack of information on them We're right now looking at trying to get some funding. I'm looking at the integration of lives of grazing technology so automatic gates and the virtual fence so how can we so optimize that Stock density by grouping those animals and strip grazing making the use more efficient, but reduce the labor No, so the the season long ones we had eight-way mix So there's oats There's peas sorghum sedan Millet with some sunflowers in there Brassicas, so I think we did Paja We did kale one year just was a price of kale and Flax, but I think too is like that there's that balance if we're trying to so when we do that that season long We're trying to do something that will for sure grow because you're giving up a cash crop We want to make sure we have something that will grow that we can graze and so having that diversity helps address that Certified I would ask I don't believe it does though because it's still grazing as long as you're not supplementing is that correct I don't know Yeah Or Yeah, so in this situation I think as long as you're grazing vegetative You would be and it's better quality than anyways, but In timing yeah, yeah and that timing piece when you're harvesting for hay you're gonna get better quality anyways when you cut it at those stages Yeah, and so one thing we put like oats if you put in a field pea or that's a really good option to That brings up that quality and it's one of the low-cost legumes that we can incorporate into our cover crop system So that's why we use it a lot because there's lots of other options But it grows well here and it's low cost and I think that's one of those things especially season long and you don't know if it's Going to grow There's always something so keeping it low cost is as I think important When you're thinking about that economic return and what you're putting into that system Aren't Yes Yeah, I think that there's a few different things so when an animal grazes So we think of where the organic matter comes from in the plant. It's from what's in the soil. It's from the roots Yes, the residue on top is going to get there eventually but it takes a long time to break it down So one that animals facilitating that above down break above down Ground breakdown But also when an animal grazes the roots will break off. It's called senescence the roots And that becomes incorporated into that soil and so that's increasing That's actually your most rapid increasing organic matters from those that the roots breaking down and senescing So that's the immediate that that I see In terms of organic matter And then I yeah, I think that we don't have the data, but there's different There's different biology that comes just from the what's in that animal's room and that's going to get passed out And so that's gonna feed different things in that in that system And then the stability of the nutrients in the different form of the nutrients that they're going to come out as In the once they pass through that animal And so the biggest piece is just their help and break things down faster and making it available quicker Yeah, I don't know. We don't have chickens on campus. So that might be that might be a challenge But yeah, there's definitely things Most of our research is with cows because that's most representative of what we have in this state and it's of We also have access to them But there's definitely other ways we can look at this too and other things we can incorporate Incorporate and I think it's it's becoming more popular and people are bringing sheep in and then they And they graze a lot differently. So And they'll have obviously left a little less hoof impact than a cow That yeah, there's in terms of the research that's out. There's really A lot of it's very limited. It's grazed or non grazed or it focuses on the animal production piece But doesn't bring in that soil health piece and so that's what we're our goal is Is to fill in some of those gaps and look at the whole system And not just a piece of that system Yeah So that that would be the same that was the same grazing study So Not it didn't it showed it in the p in the k but not the n But I think that yield shows that maybe It was there. It just maybe wasn't in In a form that our animal or that our tests recognize And we did have some issues with the lab our testing lab this year. So that might have been part of part of our part of things There's always a challenge with research Um Yes, so that was We go and I don't have those specific sites pulled out. I just have the average So here's our organic matter though and the so those those crazy treatments were the ones that had almost They had a three quarters of a percent increase in organic matter over the Over the treat over the trial time are from baseline Out people yeah, it's not going to be Yeah, it's not going to be as big of a benefit because you're yeah, you're not having that grazing impact At least that's initial and there's still going to be that benefit and we've seen in our cover crop only trial that you and Hopefully with our our rye trial we're doing now we can answer some more of those those questions But this this trial here So this one did have this had rye in part of incorporated it into So we definitely see a bigger boost but we're seeing a bigger boost when we're Integrating those livestock would see but even with the no use of the no livestock. Here's our That's just the cover crop by itself. So it's still a benefit. It's just not as big of a benefit Because you're still getting that root matter that's breaking down and and becoming organic matter The nice thing about if you have if you're able to harvest it somehow you're getting a return from that investment And if you can graze it You're getting your animals out of a lot earlier, especially rye You're getting them out of a lot earlier in that in the spring and it improves health conditions conditions for them And it's reducing your feeding costs to Yep Yeah, that's Pretty common here And that's what we'll do on our study is that though the no graze treatment As well terminate and plant into it because that's what they're already doing at that research center And that's most of the where because that's that'll be done in central North Dakota both of our study sites so that We want to replicate what the producers in that area are doing Are any of you in other words a few livestock producers are any of you already grazing cover crops? Thinking about it or have considerations about it or what are some of the things that are maybe keeping you from doing that? And so that's that piece like if you can Set that That's why we clip in ways so we can kind of control that and set that grazing period And pull them off when we get to the point where we want to and that's that's tricky It takes and definitely just a lot of guests seen in it to it anyways because Every cow grazes a little different and depends on their experience with cover crops So our trial we had ones that had grazed cover crops before and were experienced And then we had some naive cows that were older and some younger ones the young ones did fine They adapted we had the old the older cows did not want to eat those brassicas They picked everything else out did not want to eat the brassicas and Which impacted them because that was where we were hoping to get the nutrition from at that time Because that was going to be so it was still green everything else was dried up And those cows were refused to eat at the first year and then they did eat it the second year But it just took them a little bit before they were willing to try that And we also had one guy that his he's They had a small herd and it was very connected with his herd and He called us they'd only been out like two days and they weren't even close to when they needed to be moved And I was like my cows are crying and so it's like just ignore them Wait till you get closer to the the date. They're not used to it So they'll be fine And in the second year they were they was better But you just like that trial of like this isn't something his cows were used to and But really good experiences the most of the those that we had worked with that hadn't grazed cover crops Are planning on continuing it. Um, one guy his father-in-law came out to our tour and I didn't think this was gonna work and they had a great experience They're the ones that grazed till december they fall calved out on it and It and it's something they plan on continuing to do and it especially with the drought last year It did give even though we had some challenges with nitrates It gave them some extra grazing and relieved pressure on their pasture So they can move those cows off those pastures and so really looking at that whole systems approach increasing the resilience of our grazing system overall and And reducing that impact on our pasture so they can recover from the drought a little better Which we've seen that on ours even we go out there and they're all like head to the head to the fence lines see if we'd move them Yes Because I know like when we talk with people it is it's hard. It's a big commitment. You had the fencing especially and Just that extra labor that goes into the extra costs But if you're going to put do cover crops you're already it's definitely worth worth it And water is always a big issue I think it's the infrastructure and having that infrastructure in place and that investment in infrastructure These we're all grazing we're bringing the animals out there Yep so Yeah, there we all the study or most of studies we've done we graze in the fall And so in the northern great plains we go through a freestyle cycle. Obviously this week is a very good example of that um and so Because of our the clays in our soils they shrink and swell and that shrinking and swelling as they go through that freeze thought cycle Helps to break that compaction As we go south that's definitely a bigger concern But here with our climate it actually there's one benefit at least one benefit of it being cold besides no mosquitoes right now right so That's that is there's research that was been Done out of the ars station at mandan that looked at that extensively and and all the trials we've done to bulk density hasn't increased significantly under our grazing treatments the exceptions are spring grazing if that soil is saturated and you have high clay content You're going to have some compaction issues And so I mean it's just one of those things is you know knowing your soils knowing your fields and If you're you know delaying grazing or getting those animals off of that field to reduce that And there's been research out in Nebraska to a long-term research looking at compaction as well and There was that they haven't had They don't have any negative results for that either And the their soils are a little sandier so like that makes sense But yeah, that's definitely the biggest concern we see or hear of is the the compaction piece and So far we haven't seen any evidence of that in our research And there's a lot and even you know research from the northern plains in general


Good afternoon appreciate everybody showing up, you know, I remember the last time we were in a tent It was about a hundred fourteen degrees, but it was on the roof and the air conditioning did work so well So this is pretty good This is I guess the the sixth meet-the-pad fed panel we actually were fed pretty well anyway meet the fed panel love that I participated in and This year we went international so we have a representative from the Royal Canadian Mountain Police with us this year So appreciate it. I'm Jim Christie. I'm a criminal investigator with the Air Force Office special investigations And I'm the director of the defense cyber crime Institute What we're going to do this morning this afternoon is I'm going to do a quick bio on each of our members of the panel Then I'm going to let them have a one to two minute opening statement And I know Keith Rhodes will have to cut him off because he can't say anything in one to two minutes And then at that point we're just going to open it up to questions from the floor So let me start out with They're not in any particular order. It might be an alphabetical order Don Blumenthal if you'd raise your hand on Don is the internet lab coordinator for the Federal Trade Commission Bureau of Consumer Protection Mr. Blumenthal established the overseas labs managing consumer protection technical support group and provides technical expertise to investigations that involve system issues His career also includes time with another federal agency, and I don't know what that means Don. What does that mean? No comment. Okay. It's one that nobody's heard of. It's not that it's sacred He's also had time in the private sector and as a legislative director for a member of the House of Representatives Who? Louis Stokes Northeast Ohio And his alternate universe mr. Blumenthal is about to start his 23rd year as a part-time scout for the Oakland Raiders So that's an interesting background OV Carroll raise your hand OV Okay OV Carroll is a special agent in charge of the computer crime unit for the United States Postal Service Office of Inspector General the computer crime unit is responsible for all computer intrusions investigations analysis and support Technical computer surveillance equipment and support to other criminal investigative organizations OV was also he's a retired Air Force Office Special Investigations agent where he had 20 years Law enforcement experience with the Air Force before going into retirement with the Postal Service Okay, Gory you're gonna have to pronounce your name for us RCMP My name is Gary DeNorm with the Royal Canadian Mount of Police in Ottawa, Canada And I guess I'll let Jim do the rest of the talking on my bio He was scared that he was gonna bastardize my name. So you glad to be here. Hey Okay, Andy freed I don't have a bio wand because he doesn't answer emails He doesn't know how to do internet stuff But I've known Andy for he's with the IRS I've known Andy from since about 1986 and I got to tell you in 1986 through probably 1992 All the investigative software used by any computer crime investigator worldwide was written by Andy free 1992 we found out it didn't work Mike Jacobs Wow, we got a lot of NSA is here. All right Okay, if you're in to say raise your hand Why okay? Mike is the vice president of SRA international director of the cyber and national security program Prior to SRA. Mr. Jacobs was the information assurance director at the national security agency responsible for development and Provisioning of information security products service services operations for the federal government Also, Mike was the mayor of College Park, Maryland So whenever University of Maryland won a basketball game or lost a basketball game and they burned down the the city You know Mike would be on them on the news. I'm sure that made NSA happy Rich Marshall Esquire also known rich for a long time senior information assurance representative Office of legislative affairs national security agency NSA's Legislative Affairs office the agency point of contact for all NSA matters concerning Congress is Committing to maintaining in relationship with Congress built on trust Their operating principles are the five C's. Oh my god. I can't believe you put this in there Candor completeness correctness consistency and corporateness I I never You got more shit with you than a Christmas turkey He was the former principal deputy director of the critical infrastructure Assurance office the chow Bureau of Industry and Security Department of Commerce Before joining the chow. Mr. Marshall served with distinction. You wrote this didn't you? Okay? Served with distinction as the associate general counsel for information systems System security for the information assurance office of the general counsel's national security agency for over eight years Mr. Marshall also represented the United States before the High Court of Justice in London and has addressed various international Department of Defense Army Navy and Air Force legal Conferences and and now he has DEF CON on his resume Mr. Keith Rhodes No clapping you notice Keith Rhodes is the chief technologist and Director of the Center for Technology and Engineering for the US GAO Anybody know what GAO stands for? Wrong wrong they changed their name. It's a government accountability office as a y'all failed. Okay For the past 10 years he's led that team and has tested the information security of US government You know as the investigative arm of Congress, you know, everybody else up here on the panel just loves Keith and his folks He regularly testifies before the US Congress and has addressed foreign governments speaks publicly about the results of the tests and On the off chance that something might improve David Thomas No clapping for you either David Thomas was designated a special agent of the FBI in 1989 after completing training He was assigned to the Tampa Division where he worked violent crime matters. So that's why he's here In October 1996 special agent Thomas was promoted to the position of supervisory special agent in charge of violent crimes and domestic terrorism Upon completion completing that assignment with the Tampa Division. He was transferred to FBI headquarters.  I Did two years down there in July of 2004 Mr. Thomas was promoted to the position of section chief the cyber counterterrorism counterintelligence and computer criminal computer intrusion investigations Additionally is responsible for the development of the FBI cyber intelligence unit and cyber action teams which deploy domestically and internationally in response to major cyber events Dr. Linton Wells a lot of you heard him speak Who's who's sucking up over there? Actually dr. Wells was my boss when I was down the FBI so I'm a little pissed at you, sir Dr. Wells assumed duties as the acting assistant secretary on 8 March 2004 and be gained the principal deputy assistant secretary of defense for network and information integration on August 20th 1998 Prior to assignment. He was served in the night in the office of the under secretary of defense for policy since July of 1991 most recently as the deputy under secretary of defense policy support since 1998 in 26 years of naval service dr. Wells served in a variety of surface ships including command of a destroyer squadron and a guided missile destroyer in addition he Required he acquired a wide range of experience in operations analysis Pacific Indian Ocean Middle East affairs network and information integration and special access program oversight Wow dr. Wells was born in Angola, we won't tell him the year He was he was graduated from the US Naval Academy in 1967 and holds a bachelor's science degree in physics and oceanography He attended graduate school at Johns Hopkins University received a master's of science of engineering degree in mathematics Mathematical sciences and PhD and international relations He's also a 1983 graduate of the Japanese National Institute for defense studies in Tokyo the first naval officer to attend their Dr. Wells was written widely has written why Widely on security studies in English Jap and Japanese journals He's co-authored Japanese cruisers of the Pacific War, which was published in 1997 and his hobbies include history The relationship between policy technology scuba diving and flying so I read his whole bio because he's my boss We have one one other person on the far end And you can't see him. It's raise your hand Andy the seat on your left on your right that's the CIA and But they're actually he's the individual is actually sitting among you, okay? So, oh, I forgot Robert because Robert we just added Robert Mars, Sr. I Met Robert last year officially chief scientist for for NSA and the way I met him was through his son so So pretty good panel, so I'm hoping the questions are going to be pretty good Before we start the questions the panel asked me to do a thing asked me for a favor and asked they wanted to do a survey They would like they'd like to know we tried could everybody please stand up for a second Okay, if you're with NSA, please sit down Couple a couple wobbles there, okay If you've never broken the law by breaking into somebody else's system, please sit down a couple of the cameras weren't working Could you guys please stand up again?  So rich I'm gonna be real quick couple of things. This is a legitimate deadhead shirt. I am first-generation dad Spent a lot of time partying spent a lot of time partying with Jerry when he was alive and loved it Never did or never have been caught doing the drugs. I've been Tested 17 times at NSA. I mean they recognized me when I walked in I Can't remember what year a couple other things you know about Jim mentioned that I'm a lawyer. I was the legal architect for eligible receiver 97 that was an important event in The United States history because that demonstrated to senior leadership that information warfare was not a theory It was a reality and that was the time that Dick Clark decided he wanted to be a cyber security expert And the two of the people that really were instrumental in helping make that program work are on the panel with us today Dr. Lin Wells we work very closely putting that together and my former boss and great friend Mike Jacobs Just absolutely awesome guys And my association with Bob Morris we can't talk about but it was through him not his son. He's an absolutely awesome guy Tremendous respect for him Last thing I want to talk about is we would love to have your resumes if you're clean Not talking drug. Well, yeah, we are but For you slip But particularly in today's environment, it's very critical that we have the best and brightest working on solutions and Work with us on those solutions come and join the team. Send me a resume. We'll make sure it gets the appropriate consideration Fair enough. Thanks. Dr. Wills You don't hear me in the back As I mentioned earlier for those of our chance to hear a DoD is moving toward this concept of network centric operations Which really puts a greatly increased premium on the importance of the network and thus protecting the network We've got a very sort of worldwide homogene or heterogeneous complex set of missions which don't necessarily map to the private sector security concerns and so we certainly don't have all the answers and I second The point here of we need to need to work with you. We need address new resumes the point I would ask though specifically is What concerns me is not the kind of casual hacker for recreation or thrills I'm really concerned about people who are trying to get into DoD's networks to steal the information or Conduct attacks that disrupt what we're doing. We have people out there today from Afghanistan to Iraq to Darford or whatever these people's lives are on the line They depend on these networks and it's not just a casual thing for them. So what I'd ask is you know a little less noise in the system the intrusions the the The probing the whatever basically moves our resources away from things that really need to be Addressed and there clearly are people out there who are trying to do us harm and harm to the kind of values I think that most of us share about the value of information being shared so I'd ask for your cooperation and Look forward very much to working with you and getting your ideas. Thanks very much I promise not to give a speech I'm sorry. My whole speech is no comment. I will very likely before the end of this break that promise But there's something substantive. I want to say The smartest and brightest of you we need you guys Two things one is if you're reasonably good do consider Seriously coming to the government including my organization that also badly needs brightest and best There is one Side issue though that you need to take care of We would like to hire the best of you and We will if we possibly if you can apply and do apply But There's a line don't cross the line Others will say that to you also.  I'm sorry Okay, thank you Bob But don't get caught otherwise no comment just a little bit of a bio on my on myself here I'm in charge of the network and information operations team in Ottawa and basically our team is Composed of civilian members and regular members and we are also looking for some talent to come to the RCMP and It's an honor being in front of some of the brightest guys and people ladies and men in the tents here today We investigate he's talking about the panel You to a gym We investigate unauthorized use of computers mischief to date anything to relate it to computer crime Incidents and also where the the tech crime branch is the contact for any international agency We're 24-7 and so if anybody's any incident regarding Computer-related incidents they call us and then we'll disseminate to the right agency within Canada Thanks, right Mike after three years in the private sector a couple of observations On my career at NSA I work predominantly with the Department of Defense And now in the private sector most of my clients are in the civil governmental side of the government The conditions there are perhaps what the Department of Defense experienced 25 years ago But they are improving So too is the product space most of the failures that we're seeing today is in the human domain Stupidity in many cases Your skills and the activity that you're engaged in help us learn every day But as Bob said don't cross the line. We do need you both in the government We need you in the private sector There's an awful lot to be done our near total dependency on the network today as a nation Requires us to do the very best that we can In terms of improving the security and the integrity of those networks Now last year when I was here I Had the opportunity to auction off to a single purchaser an NSA t-shirt And that purchaser bit gave me $60 for an NSA t-shirt that I didn't pay anything for That all went to charity of course now this year I have two NSA t-shirts Is the guy here who bought it for 60 bucks last year because these are different On the other hand, I'm willing to trade both of these t-shirts one each for a legitimate resume of someone I can hire Thank you David Thank you Dave Thomas with the FBI and on behalf of the FBI. I appreciate you coming This being from the great state of Tennessee this somewhat reminds me of an old-time tent revival and If any of you feel the power coming over you I Just want you to know that we're authorized to take confession 24 hours a day I'm living proof that the FBI doesn't always hire the best and the brightest so For all of you the rest of you out there you there is a chance stay with it Keith Hello, my name is Keith Rhodes. I'm with the GA L speak up. We can't hear you. Okay What I would like to say is that five years ago when I sat on this panel I Said the following statement we always get in Five years hence. We always get in Is that short enough for you? If you would like you still going to the legislative branch and test the security in the executive branch Give me your resume I'm OV Carol with the postal inspector general's office. We respond to the incidents involving the 35,000 Postal networks as well as do is all the computer crime computer forensics for criminal investigations Investigated by the postal inspector general's office. We have an announcement out on USA jobs at opm.gov or Dallas Denver LA and Washington DC right now, so Don a little too quick. I wasn't quite ready there I Know a lot of people a lot of people here have been at a number of these sessions before but the FTC is new To meet the feds, so I wanted to talk a little bit about what we do and what our involvement is closer. Okay It I've known about DEF CON for years really appreciate the opportunity to come because I wanted to and now Since I'm on the panel I could get the agency to pay for it We're we're an independent agency and we're a civil law enforcement agency only We've been in internet and online activity law enforcement for I think our first case was 1994 and because of the wording of our mandate I Which is one of the broadest in the federal sector? We can dabble in just about anything we think might affect consumers So in the internet world we have dealt with good old scams, you know the things that used to be in the back of the magazines But are not on now on websites We have dealt with mousetrapping page-jacking a lot of technical things that really are techniques new to the internet couldn't have been done before One of our biggest areas right now best known program I think of my division I'm not mad the division that my groups in is you do not call list which is Prop yeah, I think it's the thing we're best known for these days But the other thing that we have going is our spam law enforcement. We were one of the earliest we have the spam database spam at uce.gov Forward your messages to that address they're indexed within an hour and there for us and now other law enforcement agencies to use to find Raw evidence in spam investigations We on the law enforcement side we come at this from a little bit different angle we are civil I can't threaten anybody with jail but on the other hand My burden of proof is a lot lower than in a criminal side, and I don't have to prove intent So very often we can make the cases that the creams can't and frequently we work with them We will if we decide it's crossed the line will hand it over that's happened in some fishing matters We've brought fishing, but some of them are even beyond what we should be doing The other thing is we do security cases We have kind of marked ourselves out as big in the whole area of consumer privacy Consumer security But the difference with us is when we brought a security case. We have not gone against the people doing the breaches Our defendants have been the companies who have allowed themselves to be breached with idiotically Maybe that's a bad word with with weak security systems on for example online ordering systems or a wireless per Point of sale system that case just hit about six weeks ago So our view is more toward the consumer and as a result where the consumer has heard is more by the companies That are breached rather than the folks who do that work We've got some ideas for some other things, but at least that's the types of case we brought so far Thanks, Tom Hi, my name is Andrew freed with the Treasury Department been there 17 years For those of you that were not caught because my software didn't work you can thank me later When Jim Christie and I first got involved in computer security, there was no internet publicly available It's been very interesting seeing how a lot of people have come up to the ranks and And put together programs that were just amazing. Can't hear you Like the mess with the sound guys Basically, you know, we want to say to all of you that if you're interested in law enforcement and you have a computer background It's a really good lifestyle. It's a lot of fun Sometimes people don't like you showing up with your doorstep, but For the most part it's very challenging and rewarding and I would once again Invite all of you that are interested in law enforcement to pursue it try and stay as clean as you can And see us after the show Thanks guys What I wanted to say before we just we're going to open up to questions in a second I need you to speak up because got the fans going, you know, it's hard to hear up here And this mainly for the media After every DEF CON meet the fed panel, you know, there are headlines that we all have to go back and answer for that says We're here recruiting hackers, which means to our bosses criminals. That's not why we're here Like everybody here on the panel said we're looking for the folks who haven't crossed that line yet If you cross the line, we want you to stop because you're adding that noise to our networks Where we're trying to prevent and catch the real bad guys the nation states, etc So, uh, but uh, if you've crossed over that line, we're not hiring hackers That's just for the media because you guys don't get it right very often That was the press booing Um, so at that point, um, I also have t-shirts that are for trade Okay At the defense cyber crime center, we do have jobs available. You don't have to be a law enforcement agent We have forensic examiner positions and programmers and engineers to do Development research and development of digital forensic and investigative tools So lots of opportunities for those who are interested. Okay, let's open this up to questions and be loud That are hung up on somebody Thank you. How many of these agencies here are hung up on the applicant requires to have a bachelor's degree As opposed to just experience certifications, etc I'll start that at the defense cyber crime center You have to compete but if you have experience You don't have to have a degree to be a forensic examiner nor an engineer to develop a tools so Um, anybody else on the panel want to take that? I have no hang-ups nor does the organization Louder I have no hang-ups. So this is whether or not you have a degree Uh, yeah, as jim said though, uh, within within any service, whether it's the government service or a large contractor Now your competitive position relative to promotion other things does depend upon the degree sometimes Now but in terms of your ability to perform the work whether or not you have a degree And that's what i'm looking for Is there any reason why you don't have women on your panel? No No Next question I'd just like to say that three of my deputy assistant secretaries are women so Boss is a woman as well as we have a one of our females out in the audience right now just doesn't want to come up She's very shy gentlemen, um, this is not a uh attack against any one of you or your individual departments However, I would like to know why the federal government Especially some of the law enforcement agencies are destroying this country and to clarify this position I would like to read uh Two paragraphs from the july can I see your badge? Can I see your badge? Why is it in your pocket? You hiding? No, sir. Oh, okay. Okay. Is that a press pass? No, sir. Okay Okay The fbi is now under the full control of the executive office so that our president now has his own Good stop out. Then we have the national security service. They forgot to tell me that i'm sorry form Without congressional approval as part of the new anti-terrorism legislation This new group has already been dubbed the ss. It operates under the okay. Can we cut him off because? Okay Anybody want to take that let's go back to that best and brightest scenario I think if we had those capabilities we'd brag about it But we don't we don't use microwave. We're pretty uh on the up and up I'd just like to know briefly from each of the members of the panel I'm sure you're aware of the the big sisco thing that happened this week I'd like to hear what the the various agencies have to think about that I think that um if you're If you have a fundamental flaw Starting in the operating system That's what we are fighting against. I mean that's why I can get in that's why you can get in There's a trade being made all the time And that trade is between operational whatever and security and I don't know anyone and Part of me revels in this idea because that means I'm going to be employed forever But I don't know anyone who's getting Any corporate organization that's building software right now to do it right Richard Powers in the audience and he and I spoke at a software development conference. I guess it was in 2000 And I talked about how it was the fault of the people in that room That I could do what I can do Because if I can utilize a buffer overflow Because everybody's writing to the same address space in memory Then that software is crap And it should be fixed But I don't know that anything Has happened enough To get anybody's attention except a bunch of people sitting in the tent in Las Vegas I mean, you know How many years ago did you lose 80,000 credit cards? Now you got 42 million Anybody go to jail? Anybody get shot dead in the street over that? Anybody get hung from a tree?  They can't they can't enforce something That's not there So if the infrastructure is broken Or as peter neumann says so clearly the infrastructure stinks and it just stinks more and more and more Because it becomes more complicated Then yeah, you can say okay, just go this and microsoft that and blah blah blah and you can say well, it's fine I run whoppings, you know, well great. That's got problems too Everything has problems. So where's Where's the result that's coming? from you folks I mean Yeah, you're out doing your thing and you know, you're breaking in which is kind of trivial because if you can't break a Wi-Fi connection with two ten cans in a string you better go home But the point is that you're doing what you're doing But where's the result? When does it get to the board room? That's my question to you and to all of you Because we can only do what we can do That's it. Dr. Wells. Did you do want to respond on it? I just say from defense's perspective the u.s. Surge has issued a vulnerability alert and we're taking action response to the vulnerability alert Next question. Yes, sir. This is a question repeated from five years ago. I think just following up Hey It's so each of the agencies as a parent and a teacher What do your agencies now offer as far as internships scholarships and things like that to bring people to the good side to have them Work in your professions to train them to be in your fields I'll take first shot at that. We have four interns at the defense cyber crime institute today I was at black hat talking to several uh institutions Working with jack hollerin jack hollerin hooked us up with a local university in baltimore where we're going to Kind of mentor the students that are doing digital forensics and offer internships and absolutely but but the problem is We had a a series of There's cyber core, which is a scholarship for service Uh, uh, uh, cool And yeah, how you doing? How you doing? And what what what we were doing is all these institutions came to to meet with us And they wanted to know what they should be teaching students. So we would hire them and and my my Mine was real simple You got to teach them not to do drugs and break into other people's systems if you teach that You know the technology there's plenty of technologists out there So you got to give us folks with the right morals and the right value set Uh, and yeah, absolutely anybody else All right, let's follow up a bit on the cyber core The cyber court Okay now All right following up a bit on the cyber core. There are 52 universities in the united states today that are Uh capable of distributing scholarships and fellowships through the cyber core program Now those 52 universities are universities that have been designated and as nsa centers of excellence in information security education What comes with a cyber core scholarship or fellowship? Is essentially an internship and a job within a federal agency It's an obligation of the student when they take the cyber core scholarship or fellowship It's essentially a service for for fee situation There are some 400 450 cyber core students in the system today And there are several hundred that have already joined federal agencies Now that program has been quite a success on the um On the canadian side of it, uh, we also have co-op students who come within the agency And we see how they perform. They're there for either up to four months or eight months or it could be a year and We we monitored or monitored their progress and eventually later on if if they do want to come back to the government agency And if their positions are available, they may get hired So we do have a co-op program in place within the rcmp Dave as the fbi has an extensive program of scholarships tuition reimbursements It's a lot detailed information is available on the fbi website We have tuition reimbursement and we've also brought in cyber core students and we have summer intern programs We also have summer intern programs We've got summer intern programs, um tuition reimbursement and um I appreciate the question because it reminded me to ask some folks around here about us taking advantage of the cyber core program and I Not sure I would remember to do that without it The irs does have summer intern programs as well So we've come some way in five years, huh? Eight Line up over here, uh, actually this is uh addressing the gentleman from the gao a G gao gao gao About your response to the question earlier With uh what michael did and uh sisco And his own company trying to sue him for what he was doing Uh to be a responsible action trying to let the community know that this problem was there Even though sisco didn't want the information released um I'd like to know what the uh the organizations that you all represent are doing To change the laws in this country to quit holding accountable the individuals that are releasing this information trying to improve things rather than make the The vendors responsible for Taking appropriate actions and releasing the information One one real quick thing ladies and gentlemen um You can't spot these guys Sorry Please do not approach me after the panel and go I spotted a fed and then drag one of these poor gentlemen up That's just not fair It's kind of like sleeping with your sister, you know You slept with his sister Your sister Actually, yeah, your sister was pretty good Better that than my mother though and by the way, roy, would you stand up? Contrary to popular belief torrenra. This man is not a fat. Okay mystery solved Thanks guys. I forgot I stepped on you. Thank you Yes, I'm I'm with the mic now sir We are doing the men of defcon calendar We ask the women and the women only please if there is a man you would like to see on the website in terms of the men of Defcon Since we we've exploited you guys women that is uh for the last god how many years now A lot of the women from the uh women in hacking talk have asked if if they could exploit you guys So the answer is yes women.  Congratulations I think there's a song about that for you sir Please have them see q You can find q through the information booth. Please make sure your subject is willing Okay, we don't want you kidding them over the head and raping them. Oh, I'm sorry. Wait, let's see. I'm sorry Yes, sir just bear with me here. Okay. I realize you're not getting any but some guys are And it's not naked. It's shirt optional and it's nothing nasty. It's just a picture of you on the web page nothing identifying It's just for the girls to vote on who's the sexiest guy at Defcon. So thank you Well since I I think the question was directed to me. I'll respond to it We report what we find to the congress and we report What we find to the congress in a way of saying this is open and this is closed So what's closed information? We're telling them that the general public doesn't have it and what's open information We're saying this is what the public does have So we make the distinction It's up to the lawmakers To make the law All we can do is tell them Just like all the law enforcement people up on this panel can do is enforce the laws that exist Next question I'm really glad that I had the HR department prepped everyone. Sorry. I did have a question And that was that that you know when department of Homeland Security talks about You know Very big concepts that can be boiled down to three words like critical infrastructure protection How do you Conceptually, you know protect the nation's critical infrastructure from a grassroots roots effort i.e Infraguard By doing something like this. I mean, it's very difficult. You can you can protect the planes You can you can make it look good on the news But in terms of uh affecting terror and things like that There are many many easier ways to do this that we know that we just cannot protect against But what kind of grassroots efforts are you cultivating uh to try to To at least reduce the risk exposure I'm not sure I understand exactly the question But there are and you did mention infraguard and I'll answer because it is an FBI program But infraguard is a cooperation between the FBI and industry There's over 14 000 members and we expect those members to come forward We share information with them on vulnerabilities and assessments and things that you don't get into public Because they're part of that and uh, and I know the secret service. They're not here, but I'll speak for them They have a there are new york crimes like like chronic crime crimes task forces Which are similar to infraguard So there are a lot of efforts out there between us and private industry to share information Okay, do we have time for one last I'm part of the Maryland infraguard. The big thing we've discussed is how to build better education awareness to everybody First they have to understand the problem before we can give them solutions One more time for one more question here By the way, I teach security awareness courses for dummies with win short top My question is back to the centers for excellence that you were talking about mr. Jacobs And three or four years ago. I was at syracuse university as a reporter for computer world And I was covering the masters program as they were undergoing the criteria exchange become a center for excellence In the masters program and I wrote about this There are 32 students one of them was american The rest of them were from the pacific rim and the middle east And I was wondering what we can do to protect our educational outreach so that it goes to the right people To be a member of the cyber core You are looking we are they're looking for americans that are clearable for the most part at the end of the day To suggest that our educational system, however Should restrict its offerings only to americans generally Are there any academics in the room? I think you'd have a real serious problem with that Your observation at syracuse is no different than mine when I used to visit NSA centers of excellence At some of the earlier schools. I was struck By the composition of the classes that I was addressing Perhaps better than 60 percent of them were not americans That's just the price you pay for having a premier educational system And the education we dispense is helping people globally anybody else want to take a shot at that Okay, oh yeah, absolutely bob Hey too soon We would like to hire you Please don't cross the line That that concludes the meet the fed panel. Thank you guys got t-shirts Thank you