This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community Matters here. Yes, sir. Bingo. Welcome to Think Tech Asia. I'm your host, Jay Fidale. Our show today is called 700 million people in China on the move, Wanderlust. We're going to talk about, we're going to talk about China and Wanderlust all in the name of patriotism, trying to make a global impact. Patriotism can be a great motivational force. If you want to ask a question, make a comment about this discussion. You can tweet us a Think Tech HI or call us at<PHONE_NUMBER>. Our guest for the show, which should be no surprise, is our regular correspondent and contributor, Russell Liu, an attorney, a Hawaii attorney practicing in Beijing. Welcome to the show, Russell. Welcome, Jay. Welcome. Aloha from Beijing. Yeah. Where are you now? You look great. Well, I'm right now in Beijing, in the district called Hai Dian, known for its universities. I'm at the actual coffee shop of the second largest press publication house in China at the Beijing Ford Studies University Pub and Press. That looks great. Looks better than Starbucks, if you want to know. So let me say something. Go ahead. Well, here's my cup of coffee to you. I'm drinking Americano. Okay. So I want to just sort of set the stage here. 700 million people are on the move in China, the largest migration of people. And around October 1, which is national day, that's half the population of China. Everyone on the move, this migration occurs from October 1 to October 8. So why are they on the move is one of the questions we're going to ask, where are they going? How is all this moving affecting them and us? So China's national day holiday celebrates the country's founding similar to our 4th of July Independence Day. Unlike other countries, such as the U.S., celebrating the 4th of July with patriotic events and parades, China's people celebrate the holidays by travel. They travel, they spend lots of money, and they do shopping. The largest migration and shopping spree in the world, 700 million people. A large number, according to CTIPS, which is China's largest online travel operator, are going to travel overseas for the holidays in exotic places, 6 million people are going to travel. The economic effect of the Chinese during this one week period affects all of us and it affects all of us globally. So now we're going to find out from Russell what's going on, Russell. Tell us about national day and tell us about this huge migration and wanderlust that is affecting the world and changing things in China and everywhere. You know, Jay, I think it's really important to think that from the West, when you hear and read the press about nationally, you think it as some kind of really patriotic, very military day. But it's really not. You know, China has gone past that point. I think the perception of many Americans who have never been to China is very different than an American being in China. And I kind of wanted to show everyone what the really is happening on the ground. And yes, it is a national day. It's called National Day Olig October 1. Maybe the name, there are some misunderstanding what's all about. But let's take a look. We've got a couple of videos here just to show you the people on the move. How are we, Russell? What is that an airport? A lot of people there. You're seeing what it looks like on the travel system in the subways. How many people are traveling around in China. And China has invested so much in the subway systems. And it's so efficient because from the subway, you get to the train directly to the airport. And these people movers, I really unified the people. You know, they talk about the China Dream and everything's possible now when they see this and experience this. So what do we see? That was the subway. People online in the subway. What were they waiting for in the subway? Yes, that's the subway that you see. Modern subways. And you will find the subways. I find them a lot much more efficient than I'm in the U.S. than in New York. New subways. Everything's clean. And for the amount of people in China and Beijing, it's a population of 20 to 23 million people.  Security and crowd control. Yeah. Well, let's take a look at another video you gave us and see how that compares. Everybody's headed toward Tiananmen where we're headed. See what you're like in National Day in China. And as you can see, okay, Russell, that's impressive, too. That's a modern, you know, 21st century subway. Where does the subway go? Well, the subway goes all around the city. This is in Beijing. Think of Los Angeles. Imagine the breath of Los Angeles, and you can get clear across Los Angeles in 45 minutes on a subway. It's very impressive. And people now, they're used to that. The trains come every three minutes, did you say? And they're always there on time. Tells you when they're coming. And it's every three minutes. And there are signs. There's TV screens along the side of the subway where you're waiting. And it tells you the countdown. You'll see the countdown. It'll tell you blow by blow, three minutes, two minutes, one minute. And you'll then hear the announcement that the train is pulling in from this stop and it's going to the next stop. Wonderful. Fantastic. We don't have that in the U.S. No. And what you told me before the show, too, that those subways will take you to the big trains. And I'd like to ask you about the big trains. And they will take you to the airport.  Right. Well, what I do is I pull my roll-ons and I just get on the subway. And it takes me from where I'm at across the northern part of the city to the southern rail station. It takes me 30 minutes, 30 minutes. And then I simply roll my luggage right off the subway. I take up the escalator and I'm at the train station. I roll up right past the security checkpoint and I just check right in at the gate. It's like this all over China, not just Beijing. Last week I went to a northern city of Jinan in Shandu. Normally it would have taken five hours, but this took only two hours on the high-speed train. Yeah, those are the fastest trains in the world now, aren't they? They're faster than the Téjé Vey in France and the other place. Yes, they just unveiled their latest high-speed train. It is the fastest bullet train in the world. And that service, especially if you were in China, it's wonderful to take it from Beijing to Shanghai. And it's probably faster than taking an airplane. Airplanes, you have security check, you have delays. And by the time you get all in place and then you fly, you're probably there on the bullet train. Well, I just want to get the dynamic of this. A few years ago, say 10 or 20 years ago, despite the fact they had National Day then too, people did not travel in the same way, the same scope, the same distances, the same speeds, with the same money in their pocket. So this is all fairly recent, isn't it? Yeah, yes. The China National Day really, 1949, when the first National Day. And National Day was on October 1, although the founding of the country's action is September 24, 1949, October 1. So every year they've been having this celebration. And in 1999, the government changed it. China is a very practical place. So they said, well, we're going to take a look at this. And what they did was, a modern day National Day is not like it was 1949. It's a time where the government says, okay, for all the people, now that we've got this wonderful transportation system, we want you to see your country, experience your culture. People from outside of Beijing will come to Beijing. We want to make the country unified. Beckon, they found it's a great way for domestic spending. They spent a lot of money. 700 million people coming to Beijing, and 6 million will go abroad outside of Beijing, and they will travel. But it brings about $100 billion domestically. This is part of Hu Jintao's initiative to increase local spending, local consumption of goods. Before it was all an export economy. He wanted to make it a local consumption kind of economy, and have the people in China buy Chinese goods. And one way to do that is to have them travel around the country and go on a shopping spree. Yes, that's right. And this is also called Golden Week. And because it's the largest retail spending week, one of the weeks of the year, 14% of domestic tourism spending are costing this 7 to 10 day period. And in fact, people don't just go to the malls.  So it's a society that's not really brick and mortar. So just imagine. The malls are busy, people are buying, and people are outside on the street with their mobile phones. And you might think it's hard for Americans to understand this. But I think we've got a video that I've got here, which shows how the Chinese don't need to go to malls. And this is over lunch with three of my local guides that I went lunch. And I saw a plate that I wanted to buy at the restaurant. And so what they did was they showed me how they used their mobile phone, got on Alibaba's engine site, took a picture, and simply it came up, where to order, and I could just order right there. In the restaurant. From the restaurant. From the restaurant. I think we have that next video. Yeah. Hi, this is Rusty back with ThinkTac with my two guests, Irene Lee and Jocelyn here. And we're going to show you how much commerce and technology is merged together in the daily lives of everyday Chinese. So while we're sitting here at a Russian waiting for lunch, I commented how beautiful this plate looks like. And Ms. Irene is going to show us how the Chinese use technology. So you're able to buy online instantly and make a purchase. So anyway, Irene, show us, show for our audience. What are you using? Your smartphone? Yeah, my smartphone. There's an app called Taobao, which is the, which is from the Alibaba company. So everybody's heard of Alibaba and you, I see that. Now what she's going to do is she's identified the plate. This is the plate. I'm going to take a picture of the plate and then they can identify this item instantly on online. So right now I'm taking a picture of the plate and this is scanning the item. And you can see they are all the plates they found. So instantly you can get whatever you want when you see it and you can make a purchase online. So in other words, for our audience, this means that you don't have to go to a breaking mortise place. You don't have to waste time. It's efficient. All we did was take a picture. It's even cheaper on the internet. So for this plate is only 10 RMB, which is awesome. So I think I'm going to order some, Irene, don't close that out. I'm going to order some plates and the plates, when I ordered, how long will it take to get the plate? Only two days. But if you buy something from Beijing, from the same city, you'll get this next day, like just one day away. So here we are in the Bhutongs, having lunch, having a conversation and being able to shop. Now that's what I call efficient. In China, where technology has merged into daily lives of everyday Chinese technology using your smartphone, you don't have to go to a shopping mall. And it's efficient because I'll have next day delivery. That is cheaper. So anyways, again, Russell, you're on the road in Beijing. It's National Day in China. We're here. It's going to site itself in Beijing to show you what the daily lives of the Chinese are. We'll see you later. Goodbye. Wow, Russell. That's pretty impressive. It doesn't matter where you see it. It'll recognize it. It'll send it to you. That's what's his name, Ma, in Alibaba. He's eclipsed Amazon, hasn't he? Yes. And so that is incredible, isn't it? That's every day what the Chinese do. They live life very mobile. That's why they spend trillions of dollars on e-commerce. And it's a big, again, a big domestic engine that makes economy run. And so it's part of something where technology, this show is about technology. So you just saw what technology does to a society. Well, I sure like those delivery times, one day in the same city and two days from anywhere else. But I want to add something. We have this possibility. Hawaii has a possibility of having an Amazon Center being built here. And you might think that that's a remote possibility. But I heard just a couple of days ago that Jeff Bezos of Amazon was here, not a block from where I am sitting. I wonder what he was doing here just a week ago. Isn't that something? Isn't that amazing? Maybe we will have an Amazon Center right here. Well, that's what I'm saying. If we can bring Amazon to Honolulu, we'll bring Alibaba. It'll be a great global logistic center. And we create special economic zones, bonding zones, so that there are no taxes passing through. But then we get this economy going. But you know what's important here? It makes everybody from Amazon that level down to the ordinary person empowered, empowered to want to go business. Next show I'll show it to you. We were having before we set out our day trip, we went to a small coffee shop. It was in the basement of the university next to a cafeteria. And you would think, why would this guy be there? And it turned out he makes the best German black forest cake and chocolate cheese cakes. And what he does is he'll just go there and I drank a cup of cappuccino and had your cake. It was wonderful.  That cake will be made and it will be delivered to you in two or three hours. But imagine, people are empowered. They're not constricted by expensive motor and brick. And this is the kind of society where money turns and economy grows. And in the back point of every society is a small business. This is what China is all about. It's happening. It's happening. Everybody in China seems to be dedicated to that proposition of let's do local consumption. Let's do national Chinese consumption instead of just import-export. So now we're taking a short break, Russell. When we come back, I would like to talk about these 700 million people who actually leave China and go flying around the world, you know, getting there with the subway and the high speed trains and all, getting to the airport and one belt, one road and see how China is expanding its travel horizons to other countries and other continents. We'll be right back after this short break. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. My friend, mother, what big eyes you have. She's sad. All the better to see you with my dear. What are you doing? Okay, cool. Research says reading from birth accelerates the baby's brain development. And you're doing that now? Oh, yeah. This is the starting line. Posh. And this is over. You're dead. Read aloud 15 minutes, every child, every parent, every day. Yeah, we're back. We're live. We're talking to Russell Lu, a Hawaii attorney who practices in Beijing and reports to us every week or two from Beijing. And we get all kinds of interesting information from about how life is doing in China and everything is doing in China and affecting the Chinese. And what I love about this show is the people in China watch it. As a matter of fact, the people all over the world watch it. This is one of those special shows. And we have several of them that are that are viewed in various countries around the world. Good for Think Tech and good for you, Russell. So Russell, tell us about the way the Chinese have expanded their travel horizons to other countries and other continents and what that does for them, for their wanderlust, if you will, and for the economy of China as well. Well, it's a very fantastic to see how the Chinese have improved their way of life. And people work very intensely here. And they look forward to these golden holiday weeks. And this year, there's about 6 million of them that go abroad. And they do make an impact in other countries. In fact, recently, the press was big news. The Japanese leader Abe, first Japanese leader in 15 years, Percy went to the PRC and congratulated for their founding of their country. And he wanted to continue with the normalization of relationships. And that was standing where we're here in the press, all the other things. But and it's it's probably because this time of the year, the Chinese block in big numbers to Japan. Japan is the second most sought after destination in this period. And so they go there. And in 2015, for example, they spent $830 million just in seven days. And this year, it's a lot more. I don't know what that will be, but it is things like that. They're doing things. And the number one destination last year, believe it or not was Morocco, Morocco went off the off the scale. But it gives us a good idea of the white tourism, how we need to think about rethinking of how we attract these tourists. And we need to quickly build capacity because this is the kind of of a probability one, the largest spending, they come in big numbers. They give us a chance to breathe, you know, during the holiday periods, New Year's Spring Festival, national day, we can breathe between them. But we want to track big numbers. And again, it really is about what you do to change your product, you know, how to brand it. Yeah, well, I have talked about trying to get to Chinese signs in the airport, Mandarin signs in the airport and trying to make the Chinese feel welcome here as welcome as a Japanese tourist are anyway. But I'm wondering, which we haven't really done yet, I'm wondering whether Japan or for that matter, Morocco have taken affirmative steps to make it comfortable for the Chinese to come. Do they have Mandarin signs? Do they have Mandarin signs in Morocco? That'd be really interesting. What do they do? Well, you know, it's no surprise in Tokyo, I've been to the airports many times in Haneda where they did a read at the airport.  And it's incredible. But this was something that Japan did not do overnight. You know, when I've been here 15 years, Jay, about 10 years ago, the language schools, they would send their middle management ANA and JAL to Beijing for two years of language training. That's how they would get promoted up the ranks. They foresaw it.  But again, the airports in Tokyo have signage, they have language capability, they have ticket agents who speak Mandarin. And it's sort of like this, you got to make the field before they come. The American way is, well, we wait till they come. If you wait till they come, they won't come because it's a word of mouth. They use WeChat saying, this is not friendly. This place is not friendly for us. But you know, I got to be creative. The state has done, and Hawaiian Airlines has done a fantastic new terminal.  It did look very, very nice. But again, we need to, as a community, we need to welcome the Chinese. We need to get the whole airport. You know, if we have Japanese and Korean, we should have Chinese. It's so very important. We need to rethink our strategy. What is the Chinese traveler looking for? Is he looking to shop? What kind of tours does he want to go on? What is his taste in hotels? Does he want to top of the line or something else? What is the experience he is seeking? Well, you know, I think the Hawaiian tourism industry is looking for the high spender that's going to stay in the high hotel. But that's not necessarily the guy who's going to spend a lot. I've traveled to Chinese group. They will carry $1,000 to buy, for example, Louis Vuitton, to buy Rolex watches. And that's great for us too. But we need to welcome them. We need to make them friendly because, again, the first and last place to the airport, if they don't hear Mandarin, they know they're not welcome. And it's not a matter of favorite one country or another. It's face. The Japanese, Korean all have the same with the Chinese face. It's a lack of respect. We're the number one travelers around the world, spenders, but you're not willing to welcome us. And I think another place is Waikiki, Alamoana Center. You have many Japanese-speaking concierge, but the Chinese don't see any there. I was there a month ago. I saw lots of Chinese FIT travelers. They're buying things from Chanel, Gucci, Hermes. But when you walk them all, you're not welcome. And I think we need to start to move in that direction. Sure. We have to compete because there are other places in the world competing. There are other high-end shopping centers elsewhere in every major city. You can go shopping anywhere you want and find things that equal or rival or exceed what we have at Alamoana, sorry to say. But let me ask you about the connection between the trip, the experience of the Chinese visitor, wherever he's going, and the economy. In other words, for example, we know the Chinese are investing a lot of money in Africa right now. And they have companies that are deeply involved with lots of employees and agents all over Africa trying to do resource development factories, what have you. Now, does the tourist, if you will, call him the average Chinese visitor who goes on National Day to Africa for a trip, what does he do? Is that trip connected in some way with the economic activity, if you will, the soft power of China in Africa? No, not really. The Chinese have been in Africa for many, many years. And in fact, I just had met one of my students who went to South Africa. And I think what the Chinese are looking for is a unique experience. And they want to tie into the local community. They want to absorb the local community. They don't necessarily want the plastic dancer dolls. They don't want that. They want to see the real thing. They want something that's interesting. That's kind of a National Geographic kind of experience. So I think we have to keep that in mind. They want the authentic thing. And I go back to it because what they want is the authentic Hawaiian experience in Hawaii, for example. And that's why I'm saying is we have to look at our Hawaii tourism. It has to be global, not international. International means we change our tourism product to meet a certain market. We did that with the Japanese travelers. But we need to make it global for everyone. Like wherever you go, Starbucks, you know what the latte is going to taste. You're going to ask for a grande size latte. Right? So in other words, we have to globalize so the Chinese want that experience. Well, you know, there's an irony there that they come to buy high-end stuff in Palm Court at, you know, in Alamoana. But at the same time, they want an authentic experience, Hawaiian culture experience, Hawaiian music experience and all that. So it sounds to me from what you say that we have to offer them both. We have to offer them a high-end shopping experience with hotels that meet their budget and their taste. But we also have to offer them the natural organic experience of the essence of Hawaii. It's not one. It's not the other. It's both. Don't you agree? Yes, Jay. And also, I think another key component is that I was just reading somewhere. In fact, I talked to a fellow from Italy and he said they're going nuts. I think it's all for a mobile. They just opened up in Italy. And the Chinese feel welcome.  So I think if Honolulu truly is a global destination, we need to incorporate these elements. We need to get mobile there. We need to get mobile there. We need to use WeChat. We need to be a technology-driven city like Singapore. Singapore is done. And in Asia, they will spend more money. Imagine if we could use WeChat in Honolulu, a leading place of tourism and spending. People will be on the bus, on the tour bus, on their phones ordering things so that they will buy in advance and they send to their friends on WeChat go to this place to eat dinner. And they use technology. We need to be much more technology-driven, much more than the other cities in the U.S. If we do that, I will ensure that Honolulu will be truly a leading tourism place. We need to push technology. Yes, we have to show that we're innovative and we're ahead of the game. They were competing beyond what other countries and destinations are doing. And what you're talking about will attract not only Chinese visitors, but visitors from all over Asia, actually, who have the bucks to come. And for that matter, make Hawaii a better destination for people from the mainland and from Europe and every continent, any continent in the world. But I want to ask you also, what happens after October 8th, Russell? Does everybody go back to work? That's the end of that. And they stop traveling? I mean, is there Chinese travel going on after October 8th? That's a rhetorical question. What do you think? I think there's always traveling that's going on in China. I met the train stations quite often, traveling myself. And people are always on the move here. It's just that a mass number comes out in that week because, you know, for people that work in state-owned enterprise or government companies, they don't have a luxury of saying, I want to take off on November 10th, one week to go to Hawaii. They don't have the luxury. So they planned their travel for these periods like National Day, the Spring Festival. So in the scheme of things, if Hawaii wants to be a global tourism place, we need to plan ahead. We need to make it a gala event in Honolulu so that they will get on sea trips and book their trips early. Well, that sounds like they minimized the risk by doing that, the risk of being involved in unplanned experiences while they travel. But we live in a dangerous world now. There's always the possibility of terrorism. And some countries have a regular diet of terrorism, it seems like, especially in Europe, and now here too. So I wonder how the Chinese deal with that. Are they afraid of that? Do they make their moves to avoid that risk? Do they avoid destinations that have an inordinate risk of terrorism or other difficulties? Or do they cruise right in and go wherever they want to go, not worrying about it? Jim, sorry, I didn't get that feed quite clearly. I think you're talking about terrorism. Yeah, I'm wondering how the Chinese feel about terrorism when they plan their trips. Well, I think when they plan their trip, yes, that is in the back of their mind. And that's a very good question, because we've had a lot of civil unrest in the U.S. So the Chinese actually, that has been a little chilling effect as to them wanting to go to the U.S. We had a bad incident in the University of Illinois champagne where a girl was kidnapped, and I believe she might have murdered. So they had the Schrodingerville incident. So the Chinese are aware of all this going on. So it does affect them. But that's where Hawaii, I think, to the largest, like, knock on wood has been fairly lucky. It's a place, a sanctuary, a peace, calm, and it's a very safe place. But again, that team should be brought out much more of the Chinese tourists. Yeah, where the mainland has all these issues, white supremacy issues, racist issues, including not only African Americans, but also Asians. So that would be a bit of a turnoff for a Chinese visitor. But Hawaii has diversity, Hawaii has tolerance. And that means, and I really like your thoughts on this as we close, and that means that we have a great opportunity. We have a great card to play because of our diversity and our tolerance. We are a very appealing destination, are we not, to the Chinese and anyone in Asia, because of that. And do they think about that? Is this an important card for us to play and for them to come here? Yes, Jay, that's right. It's a place of healing and good place. And I think we just need to get our community together. We need to get our leaders to be, hopefully, much more engaging and welcoming these tourists. Because I think that will make a difference. Yeah. Okay. Very important that we hold that thought. Very important here on National Day, but all through the year. Thank you so much, Russell, for joining us and for the clips you have and for showing us this beautiful coffee shop behind you and taking us on a tour as you do every couple of weeks with Think Tech. May I say and Sai Jian Russell, you? Yes. Yes, Sai Jian. Take care.


Well, look, it certainly sounds like a Russian pilot was horsing around and deliberately trying to destroy what they're saying was a US MQ-9 drone over the Baltics, over the Black Sea rather, and so this is a provocation. It's probably something of a test. The Russians, of course, don't like the fact that we're flying admittedly in international waters there, and they're expressing their displeasure. So it's pretty obvious why they're doing it. It's clearly an irresponsible act, nevertheless, and so we'll see how it develops. Yeah, so the news reports are an MQ-9, that's probably an MQ-9 Reaper, not sure exactly the model, but these are frankly some of very widespread, widely used, let's just call them trucks that can carry any number of payloads. They've been used in the war on terrorism for health fires, but also for ISR, intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance to surveil and spy, but again, these are essentially versatile UAV trucks, and you can put all number of things on them, but it's a pretty common drone. Well, unfortunately, the Russians kind of think of the Black Sea as their own lake. Really speaking, it is international waters. They don't really like that fact, but it certainly from an international law perspective, insulates the United States from any kind of allegation that we were into Russian airspace or something like that. Well, there's been quite a lot of drone and counter drone activity in and around Ukraine, just absolutely tons of it, and it's really been, I would say, one of the most widespread conflicts with not merely UAV, but counter UAV activity, and so it's really advanced the activity, but continued the activity we've seen in the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflicts from a couple years ago and the like. I will say also there's another precedent to think about here, and that is, I think it was during the Trump administration, Iran shot down a U.S. global hawk, which is a very large drone that we use for surveillance. We were operating from international waters there as well. Sadly, the United States did not respond. President Trump chose to countermand a kinetic response to that clear shootdown of a U.S. aircraft, and as a result, you saw an escalation of Iranian activity in the months that followed that led up to back and forth the targeting of Soleimani, and then after that the firing of Iranian ballistic missiles into Iraq at U.S. bases. So I don't think that this is going to lead to that, but nevertheless I do think it suggests the need for some kind of firm and clear response on the part of the United States. You know, I think number one is going to be the firmness and the clarity with which the United States responds, identifying it. We don't want our own weakness or indecision here to be perceived by the Russians as an encouragement to try something else and test us on something else. We've had so many statements over the past year about, you know, defending NATO territory and all these other things. We don't want any kind of in the gray zone kind of activities to further test where exactly that line is.


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Welcome back and we stand for our very first hot topic and we have Kola Oluwadari, Deputy Director of CERAP, who is joining us to take a look at CERAP taking the President to court over some monies, $2.1 billion and $3.1 trillion there are public funds that are missing. Good morning to you Kola, all right so first of all I am one of those who are very proud of CERAP, in fact if you I have probably give you a handshake yeah because CERAP just like the press the fourth state of the realm trying to put governments on their toes very good first of all this administration is just two weeks old even though I'm very excited that you have done this which you've done taking this president to court to bring these issues to four I don't know is it not early in the day or is it because CERAP feels this government needs to act fast so that those who should be apprehended should be apprehended before they disappear give us a clear picture of what's going on here into context this is not about whether the majority is good or bad this is an action predicated on the good government itself the other the general the Federation is at that point of view of the president not matter is this particular president or your answer to the president and that's very clear by virtue of section 5 and it is the 6th of the 19th of my constitution and in fulfilling this national responsibility he has provided reports which state that billions of mayor are missing and not accounted for public funds and the other general have gone ahead in this report to also mention the various MBAs in this regard so what CERAP have done is basically to look at that the general's report and extract details that pertain to force up to the payment from various agencies of government that deals with such but to bring it to the fore telling the president that in making sure that we're really acting on being in the interest of Nigerians why not look into this whole stadium and make sure that they are recovered and put into the public funds perhaps this might go into whatever permittive measure is that nation government wants to do or perhaps even remove the need for removal of sources in the first place but these are these are public funds that simply could not be accounted for two over two billion dollars cannot go to the bank to see there and we're talking about good government we're talking about transformation and accountability but the president is asking Indians to tighten their backs to take steps to accommodate the assurances of these were something we were in the first place when the government is not taking steps in that court is not spending or even recover funds that simply be needed and we have written the president and that was a which clause of law asking him to take the steps give him more like the previous to do that and is yet to do that and that is why we're taking the steps to go to court to have the judicial is the very least instance to compare the government to do what they ought to do that the other public is took by the constitution and the trust of the judge. Okay well you are one of the lawyers of Serap that have represented Serap at the federal high court as we're filing this suit and part of what you're praying for in addition to these monies is they are seeking among others an order of mandamus to compel president to Nubu to direct the anti-corruption agencies to promptly probe fuel subsidy payments by governments since the return of democracy in 1999 main shame and persecute suspected perpetrators and recover any proceeds of crimes. All right one of the things that I'm excited about this is persecution. Some will ask the question you have been taken government to court before now how would you rate the level of justice gotten from all the suits filed against governments before now and what hope do you have that something good is going to come out of this. Thank you very much justice that is understood is called a three-way traffic for the complainers or the victims as it were and for the accused and then for the society at last so in this instance looking at the justice sector and the justice ability as it were of the public interest in the nation we have but for the court the justice of the matter has been defeated largely by the government and in this instance their strategy over the years and found ways to disdain the ruler the judgment of the court by failing to implement them. It is it cannot be said that it is in as air or done anything wrong in going to court because the constitution is very fair as the principle of rule of law which also plays fit into democracy that the judiciary as an arm of government will be the final arbiter deciding matters duties and obligations between individuals and government and even between God knows themselves and so going to court is not wrong the justice of the matter is defeated largely because the executive has refused to obey the lawful order of court and we have gotten to a lot of judgments in our favor and in that way it is the interest of the Indians over the years that this government has simply refused to obey and that does not seek well of this government. Which of mine of the of the topic is made by the president yesterday in that court he also praised the judiciary and he said that he is apparently a part of his own key points agenda of government and the need the government can do in this instance it is not enough to have the judicial economy almost the most important of the judiciary the judgment of court must be obeyed that is an integral part of the rule of law so we are very confident that going to court is the best thing to do is the right to the rule of law is in the stand and we have faith in the judiciary that they will do the needful and siding in the general people in this regard because after all even the members of the judiciary are sitting in this restaurant almost they buy it well like everyone of us they look where the page like everyone of us and know the interior whether in George or not whether in lawyer or justice women will be happy to know that billions of naira are these things and we have been not able to retrieve it and so we believe that the judiciary will do the right in the system and the judiciary has been over the years even with the slope of the judiciary which is also one of the main things of our underdevelopment the judiciary has made up its task in trying to department with matters not on the marriage the executive has always been the the challenge the executive yeah well one of the things that the present administration promised is there obeying the rule of law and all that so far has the body language told you that this is going to be seen through I've always wondered what the body language is and even with the leaps is that as it were how much more we did body language about women and that the concept of body language itself is one of the biggest of the challenges you have as a democracy institutions of government must be strong to take steps on their own accord naturally we need not go to court to compare the president and to direct the anti-corruption agencies the police the only aspects to their job because the law that sets up these ingenuos of government are very clear as to the duties of obligation and the extent and scope of their power and that again speaks to the weakness of the issues we are and the powers of the presidency which appears to be very huge but which is little used in favor of them and that speaks to the political will of the president the government here is safe in the highest of the land and so with the amount of the local power that they are the least it could do is to fight corruption and fighting corruption is not by address it is by the assault that the government takes to the public interest it didn't find it very hard to remove softening to speak so that all his address he didn't find it very hard to promise to obey the rule of law why should he find it very hard to make decisions to take steps and in this particular instance to make sure that this allegation is by investigation it might be too early to indict this administration for not obeying the rule of law it will be more or less two weeks in office and they are yet to be appointed even key officers of state it might be too early for us to raise them in this instance but ultimately if this is that the cost of the government whether the president ought to take this step or not is the interest of many of them but we expect the president to still act and so I'm sure we'll have this being caught but they were very interested to see the defences that the government would bring up in this instance all right you found the suit on Friday today's Tuesday bring us to speed as to what next and how the process is supposed to play out for the court to hear these through our lawyers this is the party application for me the one the court grants me that is the first step in the process then the process is we serve them the president and then we take it from there but the least we expect is this kind of case should really be really dispensable so that the second reading is seen by an agent speaking to that the report of your general body that we did not pay that interest and that is one of the issues that we have in this country and the public officer for that matter is a public institution and not just issue reports but a disorganized government. What other concerns do you have apart from the probing of the people involved in the fuel subsidy fraud that you have already taken the federal government to court for because it may not be the only matter that you're concerned with that the present administration needed to have addressed but have not addressed maybe you're taking it gradually so what next like Maureen said are we expecting are you comfortable with everything else for now our death profiles continue to grow government is taking no step to up the high cost of governance we've not seen that someone that itself and the same government finally is ready in these further years to try to sacrifice for the greater good but we've seen we've not seen government do that on the spot so that again brings up to the issue of wastage and corruption we have so much that is falling for the it doesn't justify the use of that profile and thank you people the things you see are specific and it does not justify the need to know the profile that may be a hard for instance I'll give a very good example in the Osgoe Generals support in 2018 where the Osgoe General and this is the public office by the way it can be seen it can be downloaded from the website of the Osgoe General Foundation he said in the 2018 report that more than 103 mini-series departments and agencies he gets their personnel cost that is their record as a leader by 641 billion there do you know what that means it means more than three mgs simply spent more than they are budgeted and approved to spend for that particular year as you call it as a leader and this is not capital as a leader this is just allowances and payouts and that is just for 2018 so you can imagine what happened in 2018 what about in 2020 and these are just one of the ideas and then we're talking about the president we're not talking about the government we're not talking about other public office so these drain is to stop these are some of the issues we're looking at to ensure that government does the right thing the aim of this public research innovation is not to allow it not to allow it is to ensure that government does the right thing and what government does the right thing we all see we all we all see the impact in our life and we don't just go to spend money and then the people raise the waste funds and expect a change to just work it and that is not how democracy is run and that is definitely not in accordance with the rule of law all right so no date has been fixed yet for hearing of this suit but cola let's talk to you a little bit about the workings of seraph i remember speaking with one of your officials some time ago and he alluded to the fact that you guys do have um you get threatened sometimes in the course of fighting for the masses talk to us about this yes it's one of the other of the job and it's rather unfortunate that of course we are even the right of government or any party you call for that matter to have the legal representation in court but it's unfortunate to see that the bulk of the public education that was fired also bordered on access to information and that is basically freedom of information request yes there are but citizens of morya is asking government for information basically which is a constant on the freedom of expression for which they're from the constitution and you would have got made it defend in this case in the court of natural and the other constitutional right to do so but defend it why you should give access to information to a citizen doesn't speak well of the rule of law and sometimes also the other of the job includes some of the first government take without court what is it called and what are the reasons for the court before city for filing public relations innovation which doesn't even affect the right of service as well as for the fact that we're the general citizens and we also live in this country but these are these are cases that speaks to the right of money for instance the recent judgment that we caught in court uh where the court uh ordered the government to prove the the the law is gotten from china uh to to place the prosecutor for the cctv and that got that order is yet to be obeyed that order it was obeyed of course to benefit all the residents not only residents of abuta and we have lots of cases like that uh that paid in the court so the fact that those cases get delayed as it were it it affects the right of the divisions of the agency would otherwise have benefited from this kind of judgment yeah we do get some kind of public backlash from those who who are either politically oriented or who is based along religious and ethnic lines and those things that our advocacy is motivated along with of course it's not good government is something that everyone's will benefit from and that is what we do and that's all we've been doing over the years and really that's all we continue to do without the without the tops of tribe politics or religion so your cases do get heard and just this is delivered can you tell us some of the cases that syrup has gotten victory over and especially since yeah 1999 yes we've had uh there is this case we call the uh the pension judgment we got that from one of the judges who told you about the federal court that was in 2080 that was a 2019 where the court gave judgment and compared the art of the general of federation to challenge the legality of state pension laws and to seek a recovery of those funds that have been unlawfully paid out and to put this in context more than 20 states in a year have laws that pay uh pensions to former governments and deputy governments and these run into millions of mayor for each day and it's okay to see some states billions of there so put together these amounts of killings of where leaving the comfort of the state of private pockets every two to three years as it were depending on the portion of those laws these laws are not allowed to stand it doesn't work and to reason particularly with the growing inflation with the state of economy and with the age that over we will not continue to borrow to sustain the lifetime of human beings where the government is appealing to like that again and to tighten the account for instance more than one to 30 million years that state of the poor according to the international bureau of statistics and what is government doing in that regard that judgment is to 2019 is yet to be obeyed we also have a judgment from the federal court that has compared the government so to to release details of a month as the internal electricity and water uh for maintenance in 1970 when we got that judgment that judgment also is yet to be obeyed and I'm also mentioning the judgment for the Chinese knows and assisting me that government is yet to obey. We also have judgments from the Ekoas Court uh which is later excited you know they are granting uh orders against the government to do specific acts for instance uh we're going to the Ekoas Court to challenge the use of section 24 of the several times asked by security agencies in the Ekoas Court where there were two are simply expressing the freedom of expression but the court has been involved in line with the with the uh with the uh applicants that are on the multiple sides which may be as ratified by the one domesticated that the provisions of section 24 of the several times asked is offensive to the provisions of the applicants that are which the trans freedom of expression and you know and that is also uh what is in our constitution in the freedom of expression that judgment also is yet to be obeyed. We are not going to court uh the public interrogation to defend the agency with who are that cause to have their right to print the case in point being Mr. Alba Jalingo would come to court in 2019 when uh the same section 24 of the Dada County that's what he used to unlawfully detainee man harassing and the Ekoas Court that's another case entirely I deal with that and I want the text to be on there against the Nigerian state in this level that judgment is yet to be obeyed and that speaks to the punitive which which government looks at government at court orders and this is not the case with political cases as you would know in the year political cases get stuck in orders that are got in at a speed of light for public interrogation that would benefit those of Nigerians do not get that treatment and even when that judgment if you don't get enforced and it's it's really the most equal of the practice of democracy by those in authorities and it doesn't make sense to do more in this regard. Okay well we'll have to thank God for small mercies we'll have to thank God for the victories that you have had and a lot of Nigerians rely on the good work of Syrup like Maureen said people are proud of Syrup do more don't be afraid of the threats and all that it's a service that you're doing to Nigeria and we're glad that you're at the fore doing this we hope that you will do even more than you're doing right now. We'd like to thank you Mr. Kola Oluwadare for coming on the program this morning. Thank you. Okay we've been talking with Mr. Kola Oluwadare the deputy director in Syrup and we were looking into issues of fuel subsidy removal and the people who benefited from it and the need to probe them the case is in court now Syrup against the federal government let's see how that plays out for now we'll just take a short break and when we return we'll be talking about something else stay with us.