Good afternoon everyone. This panel. My name is Ranka Prymurats. I teach English at the University of Southampton here in the UK. It's a huge privilege to be invited to chat with you this panel. The world of African poetry really we could say. As I've been listening to this conference here today, that in my own discipline, which is the academic study of literature, y rhai a'r newydd yw'r newid yw y bwysig ar y ffordd ac mae'r pwysig ar gyfer y Llywodraeth Llywodraeth. Mae'r rhain yn olygu yn ystod i hynny i'r gweld. Mae yna y byddwn i'r cerddiant o'r llyfr y Llywodraeth Afrofiadol, o'r cymdeithasol, mae'n rhaid i'r gweld. Mae'n fwyaf am rhaid i'r word postcolonial, ac mae'n gweinio'r word yn fwyaf i'r hyn, ond mae gennym ni bobl gael i gael i'r llwyddiad, y llwyddiad gael, y llwyddiad economi, y llwyddiad cyfnod. A'r ddechrau yng Nghymru ar Markerarai 1962, oherwydd y logiad yma, yw'r bryd yma'r ffwrdd yma. Mae yw'r bryd yma'r bwrdd yn y ffrifoedd Afri ac yn ymgyrch ar y bwrdd. So, they are way ahead of their time in ways that they couldn't have been aware of when they were meeting and discussing what it means to be an African writer and to be an African writer in the world. So, it's a great pleasure to welcome practitioners and translators here with me this evening of African poetry in the world, however you understand African poetry and the world. We have heard earlier today that unfortunately the Somali poet Veid Sameh couldn't make it today because he couldn't get a visa, but we have Dr Martin Owen here with us on the panel who will say a little bit more about his poetry. I'm going to read any of it in the original and you will read the Galileo, the poem Catastrophe, that the poet himself was originally meant to have read. And then we have Erika Jarnes of the Poetry Translation Centre who read it in translation. I have got that right. After them, we will have Ida Hajiwayanes who will read a poem by Alamin Mazrui Codnikuse in Swahili, who hope I'm pronouncing all these words approximately okay. Ida is an expert in Swahili language and literature. Delightfully, she has translated Alice in Wonderland into Swahili. I'd love to ask you about that if we have time about the problems and challenges and the enjoyment of doing that. And finally, last but very much not least, we have on my left Professor Atukwe Okay who is truly a man of an African man of the world. His life's journey has taken him from all the way from Moscow to Ghana to the UK to America. He has performed his poetry as his bio tells us that we've been given with some of the leading poets of the world. He's a member of the Royal Society of Arts and the president of the Pan-African Writers Association. He has the power as the acronym has it, and he will read the poet's poem The Bond Oath of Ubuntu in English to close this panel. We will go in the order that is advertised in the programme. Right. Good evening everyone and hello again. I'm going to start off just with some words of introduction and I'm actually going to take a few steps back. Wambui asked us to remember people who are important in our lives and one very, very important person came to mind when I was sitting down there in addition to Hussain Tanzania who I did mention there. But I thought I would just leave it and actually mention him here now because there are a couple of very important connections. And that man is Mohamed Hashidama Gharia. I don't know if anyone's heard of Gharia. He's one of the most important poets in Somali of the 20th century. He was also the man who first worked out how the metrical system of the poetry works and he was a teacher. And he was also a mentor to Hassan Dair Hedr-Smith Al-Waid Sameh, the poet who we're going to read today and he was a mentor to me personally. A lot of my research I'm fascinated by the meter of Somali poetry and how poetry is crafted generally. And I was saying before how I've learnt everything in a sense from people. I've learnt more from him than any other single person, probably more than from him than many other people combined. He was an absolutely wonderful man and he was a great teacher. And he was one of the first teachers of Somali literature. Amwd University, after that was first set up in 1991, or they didn't start teaching until later, and in Hargeisi University. Hassan Dair Hedr-Smith Al-Waid Sameh, the poet who we're going to read the poem of today, was taught by Gharia. And he's now taken over teaching literature in Hargeisi University. Now it's wonderfully called the Garia Institute for Somali Language and Literature Studies. Which another friend of mine, Abdur Rahman Fargh Guri Barwako, has set up there. And it was literally on this stage in 2006 that Gharia first read his poems in English, in Somali. And we read translations through the Poetry Translation Centre. I don't know if anyone here was there that evening, it wouldn't take it with me. Do you remember that? He was only short. And there was another Somali man who was literally one of the tallest men in the world at the Abyssat. He's seven foot tall, and they were both on stage. And Gharia was a wonderful performer. So I just wanted to, I mean thank you Wambui for, in a sense, introducing that to us. But I wanted to just say a few more words about Gharia and the importance of him to me personally. And also to word Sameh, and indeed others. So Hassan Dair Hedr-Smith Al-Waid Sameh, he's at the moment, he's in Al-Sarawah. He lives in Hargeisa, Somali, and he had to go to Addis to try and get a visa. The British Embassy refused him a visa, along with some other Somali artists who were meant to come for the Somali Week Festival here in London. But he's here with us in spirit. And I've been reading this poem and others on his behalf. He's perfectly happy for me to do that. And I've been in regular contact with him, phoning up and saying, it all went fine. And he's seen it on YouTube or Facebook and all this social media things. And he was very pleased with the event we had on Monday down in East London. So now this poem is called Galilio. It's translated as Catastrophe. But the word has much more sort of a sense of, in Somali in Murugw. It's a sort of feeling. But it was felt that the Catastrophe was a better sort of title in the English. And started working on this. This is one of his major poems. And it has to do with migration. So it's the, in the poem, what he does is addresses the sea. Because as we all know, many people are dying in the Mediterranean. And so he addresses the sea as this villain in this, the story of people migrating. But the sea then turns back and says, well, hang on. Just look to yourselves. Am I to blame? And you'll hear it in the translation, which Eric is going to read. But it's this sort of dialogue between the sea and the poet. And then the poet then turns to the people and speaks to the people directly. The translation process has first started working on this sort of some time ago. And started doing a bit of translation on it. And I just should mention some people who helped me with that. There was Sir Eid Jamah Hussein who, it must have been about three years ago. Now he's actually sort of first, was it four? Good grief. Four years ago, he's sort of first helped me to understand some bits and pieces. And also where to summer himself, the poet working with him in Hargeisa. I was also Skyping on the same Mohammed Ahmad, who's a runner in Canada. He's the sort of Mo Farah of Canada. But he's interested in Sir Mali poetry. Like Mo Farah is. And we were sort of discussing this poem. And he'd actually done his own translation. And we discussed things in relation to it. So I think that's all I'm going to do is means of introduction. I'm now going to read the poetry in Sir Mali on behalf of Words Summit. Oh, sorry. Sorry, Eric is going to say a few words about the Poetry Translation Centre. And because the other person involved in the translation was Daljeet Nagra. And some people will have heard of him as a poet in Britain. So I wrote the translation and worked with him. And we made the translation that was then printed finally in the Poetry Translation Centre poster. Thanks, Martin. I just wanted to say a few words of introduction. So we didn't interrupt the poem in between the Sir Mali and the English. Good evening. My name is Erica Yanus. I'm the Managing Director of the Poetry Translation Centre. Which is a charity based here in London. But it was actually born here at SOAS in 2004, I think. And it came out of a series of translation workshops that the English poet Sarah Maguire put together with members of various faculties. I imagine that time of being a kind of exciting period where people would come together with their different languages and collaboratively make new translations of contemporary poets who were really important poets but not very well or often translated into English. So making new work available but having a wonderful time at the same time. The translation workshops were all about collaboration and everything that the Poetry Translation Centre has done in the last 12 years has been using that approach to make translations. Martin mentioned that there were many, many people involved with the translation of Galileo which we're about to read. The English poet Dalgit Nagra who was the sort of poet part of that collaboration has Bengali heritage and he said that reading the poem which is about migration brought to him a lot of memories and echoes from his own family's migration. So there are stories that we share across cultures. Respect and curiosity and consent are really at the heart of this whole endeavour. We really believe that poetry is a meeting place and that translation in turn is the lifeblood of poetry. It's a really great honour to be here at the conference. Thank you very much for some very stimulating talks. If you would like to hear a little bit more about the Poetry Translation Centre and about this poster of Galileo Catastrophe by Wetsame the Poetry Translation Centre has a website. It's very easy to find online and I'll be around afterwards to talk a little bit more about our work as well. So I think we're now going to hear the Somali original of Galileo and then I will read the translation by Dalgit Nagra and Martin Owen. So Galileo, mae hasen dal hyn, esmae i'r Wetsame, o hwyr. If cae gogosh i suhawltu, o gog gallwm nhw'r bawais yw mae oge'r talud i wgwstu, mae oge'r gwrigau ffwreis o Galileo i adon mwg ddenbeisau. Naf tanahwng gwrag at gara, acwyddo ma' acwgwra, haddana gollwpti o lwrkerau, gyffciw'u eibtio hankerau, ogw'w gara siw uchol yn. Wyd canag am ysgimau isio, garsian a li am y bachio, isiag i wedi'i'r meddahol, gyffnabag gafl chi'n mawr o, wahan hwbw'r geri cwde. Tanio anodd o gwrs, elamant o gael ei, wrw'r gerio i gwych o yma, gyda ffwy alch yn barysan, digtydw'r mahig iddontu. Yn tan tafeg anlawa'i, ma' hanwr gwrs lago hei, barbartu i aga bwlo shei, cwg angrwch i adwg bael ei, mae'r cang o dybwtod ar hwad shei, gwnad i'w ael gyda'u, mi'n gwy'r siarad o gwych o mei. Badgawli o gyfnca hwbta, mi'n gwydd i agwhad shei, gartteidio mi'n belyb. Haddad ma' has teidio gwr, baddia hei, cagad goban weid ei, unad bermag ei dadeidad sydd o gasha'r garmaha. Alleyla hei wargwmwdei, gasha'n cwgwlei'i gana, garkad o haswg i gnane, elahna'r rhaig o gei, a dda'r garmahob a heiga, hawen chi o garedd ei dda, cwgas i'r amelgoeddonna. Gwdd o galabta abadzu, byw hw gwr o gwrw cwgawd shei, gawannwch o melgarona, lulgedig o galab arrawo. Intai gwrd ei ggwlei sei, hirchi o dobteidio garedd ei wahitiri, gwrw gago, gafio wae i gwrdd dda fo, magau o gwrdd obtaid i sartu, awetid o adgen ei, so mi'n galab serei, balkadso. Adog ei gag gwlit o, haddw sahancag o gabso, haddw samirkag o gwrw, gan ei adcon agabnob o, cwstw o gwrdd gweil am eisa, garedd hi'r ala casahdo, mi'n geredd o'r shin cyda hwrtedd geredd o gwrdd gwein i'n. Habla hagwdd ei eitahrib ei, hirgat am ei ael ei ei, geredd ei osgadanaf wai ei, marki gael bach i'n wai ei, siarid cwmiw gaseint ei. Intu sahrw hwgdon shei, haliau i'l agwrdd geredd ei ffeini, intai hapsigalw gwrdd gwein ei, gaseint ymu wedi gwrreisah, inti gwrdd ei tisgaredd ei, rafdi sihad gwrdd ei, lasi gwrdd hwgwsiei, dwgagwm hwgwsiei. Marki hwrig o gyddo mi, marki gwrdd leinid barbarthw, calwm cwmiw gael ei li o el madae i'l gabach casiei. Ti'w haibahag gwrsod am ei dkenu gan angylwb ei, miad gan anwedd ei, cadso. Fa'i gwrd a tahrieb gwrdd gweisdw, gwmad ddiogheru pholhwn, hwyn jy'n cawer caw gwrsd ei, silyn caeni cwg gaf wrg ei eigh. Waha'n yn ballag y gwntae, m'i ei danyn, cababag agarbon, gwrdd a'i o gwrdd ei, gwrdd ei, so galedw arab ei. Marki gwrdd o gyddo i'w jwgledw hiws angylig o caint, mi angarasbarthw li gynnig dysad ar gybl ar y cwggi. Llywodraeth, halki gael myw ddwgaglau, gylgelin gawsahwng gaisa, mi angar asiadwch i gain yn un arwab ar y cygwrtho. Adogw'r y gag i'b si, haddad gabancina weidw, adogabag gabawiala, haddad i'l ar y gyddontho, wedi cael genis isa tae, haddad geirid a lai gyfto, haddw malkagwio, i'n tu adnwg y cygigai, cwlai wal galab sy' gai, ma haddgo'r asiadwch atos un. Garwag sy'n ei, inant ar ar ei, gyddon halkir i balkadwch. Sereddadw'u meigwt ddene, barbartw'n meigwt ddene, badwain isgwm agorene, hylbangw ben cadw'r llib te, hal mwgar anai at un le, haf mwg iddyn addswgeis ei, halkadw'r gyllid megein'n, hai ankiogedig aga gwbab anawwch as ehdain, ogalabnol te bachw. Gwgw'l canaftaw cw ogan, lalang canisi gormaia, hancael agawad y gwmeist ei, bwg gwna i'r i magadid, halkw admiw gwgwri, rajad ag gibl ba cais aran, rwntan awal aga gyddon sy'i, gabnat a heibas gweis ei, gwfa alagw farwre, cael swn i'r agabag gweis ei. Gwfbata heit gulabwra, gwfbata hei gwri aglela, gwfbata hei gara hanta, cwgachw ba hwys chena, gan cael cwmerdera arw, a gwntadw'n am agawna, maga gechyn a'i ahagw datgadwgaf, datgadw'n agwna cwma geryfyn. Dal cael gan cwma gweisid, gallwedd i ywrob cwma i erin, gyri gwna cwma ba hwna, gwbbata hei mwg yn teidda, adeg y geig ag gwwag an, gyngar gara ffarae caf hwg teit.  Gwbia cwg gaf warrexan, hwrtan i'r edygu feynin, hel ba gwt caig asaaran, cawe gosw'r a'ch achi. Wad ma hathyn ti. That's on which life lies is hard. Beware, each day we stumble. The one who's unaware doesn't know what door a decision will open, nor the anguish which can follow. Hunger leads a person by the chin, then grubby greed rides it. So again, beware, good sense is harnessed to blame, to guilt and shame and all their rot. The spear of death doesn't miss its target, or linger for the blink of an eye. No shield repels it, no one outlasts their life, so I am certain of one thing, death. From crawling baby to bearded man, bad news disturbed me, loaded with disaster. I felt for the strong ones lost. I groaned with grief for the young, those who had no milk. I sickened for them and wept. Inflamed by the scab of resentment, I chased the scourge with blood on its hands. Was I deranged by the memories? I stood on the coast and threatened, accused the booming ocean. See, you didn't prevent the slaughter of the weak. It's criminal the way you treated the people shielded by law. By God you've sunk low. The reparation you owe is clear. Admit it, don't stay silent.  It's you who tore at my people, the fine women and men injured in a desolate place. Be drained each day, be empty. May you dry up, drop by drop, become a drought ridden open desert that in the evening the nomads will walk over. I had spoken. The sea roared and rumbled. It rolled its waves and churned its foam. Them said, your poem is a travesty.  Is this my due? Just hold on. Your leaders are lacking. Your country grows weak. Your patience is lost, your smiles fade. Your understanding sleeps that would have tackled the despair that seeps inside you and steers the journey to the hour of your death. A wave crept up towards the girls as they were trafficked in darkness. It tore them apart. They had no tree to cling to and predators reveled when no friend was there to save them. All those the Sahara cut off, good men proclaimed as heroes. How many were left wretched in jail? How many virtuous women failed to reach their potential? Vultures cored over the carrion of each corpse. Wild beasts clawed the offspring given you by God. When the boat was overturned, the young were scattered along the shore. Did the fish in anguish not weep tears of festering anger? Are you unaware of your dead amassed from coast to coast? Just look. The slaughtering migration, the massacre and ugly death, the mothers draped in morning cloth for a blunder which comes around again. What binds you to it all? When the busted calls out from the bush to warn of the heavy spring showers, the gales and afternoon downpours, are you not grown up enough to know to tighten the roof mat on the frame of your hut? Doesn't common sense tell you to leave ad dawn the place where the jaws of your cattle and camels have nothing to chew, where ticks and carnivores threaten?  It's what you deserve. It had spoken and I replied, See, I hear you. I admit I've gone too far. Accept my apology. To the people I say, prosperity should not have banished. The young should not have perished, not thrown themselves on the ocean. Duty didn't burn in the spirit of him you handed it to. He had no plan for the future, didn't uphold the justice you were expecting. He slept. He didn't speak out each day as he should to inspire the camel trek to the destination you gathered for.  Colonial powers wrote in books that you wouldn't reach the place to which humanity aspires. A skin now covers hope. Truth has been cut away and you're told you're worthless. All this overwhelms you and splits apart your sinking confidence.  You are people in your own right. Leave behind the false hunger and look to your success. You're not any less by even a spear tip than your peers elsewhere. Your intellect is strong. Your future is bright. Your people need you.  Western Europe hasn't called you. The Greeks don't need you. Where is your self-respect? Your place is here. Life got out of hand but look to what's ahead of you. Take in what's by your side. Turn around and see the children clumped together in the cold sleeping by the walls. Only your effort can help them. A shattered world surrounds you that no one has yet made whole. The responsibility rests on you. More pressing than cut and run. Thank you. Thank you very much. Hi, so this will be quite short. You'll be happy to hear. I'm reading a poem called Nygwse by Professor Alamin Mazrui. Alamin Mazrui was born in 1948 in Lamo, an island of the Kenyan coast. He was born into the very famous Mazrui family clan that some of you probably know. In the 1980s he was detained as were a number of other intellectuals who were regarded as critical about the government of Daniel Arab Moy of Kenya. So after his release in 1984 he went into exile in the US. In 1988 he published his very first and only poem collection which is called Cembe Chamoyo. That is a grain of the heart. This is one of the poems in there. It's called Nygwse. I'll read it in Swahili and then in English because it's very short. It will take five minutes too. Nygwse, everybody has a copy somewhere so you could follow me if you want to. Nygwse, taratigw, pole pole, lachini, quayachini. Nygwse tena, unidiwze tena, unifunze tena, maysha iaolivio, maysha iaonjafio. Nygwse tena, unidiwze tena, unifunze tena, maysha iaolivio, maysha iaonjafio, ladaillachio iolivio, nipohapa, nimekukabili, nygwse tena taffadhali, nygwse, nygwse. The English is, when I am released, I'll ask anyone who is close to me or this can be who is a loved one to touch me delicately, sensitively, but truly. Touch me again, make me know again how life is, how life tastes, what life tastes like.  Touch me again, please. Touch me, touch me. Thank you. When we talk of the Macariary conference on African literature, we are talking about beginnings and so I've decided to perform this poem which is also about beginnings. In fact, President Clinton visited Ghana. Who remembers the year in which he did that? 1980 something? Do you remember? Okay. I can't remember the particular year, but we attended a conference on African literature. African literature writers and publishers in Arusha and our hotel was in the safari area. In the morning we saw the animals, the elephants, the monkeys and I suddenly recollected that the first footprint of man on earth was in that part of Africa that inspired this poem. And on my way out of the place, it first went by a bus perhaps to catch the flight in Nairobi. I started the poem on the bus and by the time I got to Ghana I finished the piece. It is called the Born Earth of Ubuntu. Ubuntu we all know is a South African, Southern African concept which says, I am because you are. There is a term here which is the Battle of Adua, the Ethiopian army over 100 years ago defeated the Italian army. O Lord my God, when I am awesome wonder, consider all the wealth I have made. I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder, they pass throughout the universe displayed.   The number you are calling is not in service at this time. Don't you give me the jazz? I know there are people at the other end. Don't ask my dreams to convey contraband cargos into the Sahara of some unlisted Mongolia. Oh, I can clearly hear my very beginnings humming like a Papua New Guinea peacock on heat in the archipelagos of the ages. I must excavate in me the embargoed plateau zones of a vision-friendly utopia, the legend of the Battle of Adua, the song, the totem and the asigai, within the silently saving digitized intestines of prehistoric Tanzania. My soul's cosmic umbilical cord, like a blanket clutch stone-edge refugee, anticipating a passport and a visa, awaits the connection with Ethiopia, with Alexandria. I must link myself with another. Within the oasis compound of the awakened, the Lallibela Temple stands centering over the shimmering threshold of the 21st century. The millennium new calculates that in Buktuya, Tutankhamenic, spiritostratospheric physics of a majestic entry. Upon the table mountain inscribed on the other side of the Rosetta Stone, the classified spiritual inventory of man, woman and humanity. Out of the moon-massaging mouth of the monumental midnight men's song of Marrakesh. And the long, long Shokoto Sudanese haunts of Ser Jena Trouff, rivaling the eternity teasing Nefertiti Neck, from within the savanna seducing until saluting vocal chords of the Kalahari xylophone, from within the Kolanot-Kostodian kalabash of the chorus of Mount Kilimanjaro, from inside the forest diviner death of the binting of bonnet drums of Manche Takitayua and Shakadazulu, and the belafong of the Futajalon and River Kongu. The earth of Yana Rangsuwa pours out. The wind of the stone citadel of the great Zimbabwe pours out. The fire of Manobotapa pours out. Through the goblin pharaonic, phontofromic welling waters of the Vitura Falls, Abusimbel and Nacosumbu. The transcendental Abysinia tanzania Cedilchuros anthem. I testify to the coconut sap. I notify of the landmine and the gut. I am the soul. I am the goal. I am the footprint of man. I am the heart. I am the hope. I am the ancestral horoscope. I am the path finder's map. I am the black print of the air. I am the soul print of the sun. I am the blueprint of the gene. I am the ombel caracot to mankind. I am the compass finger to the millennium. I am the footprint of the world. I am the light. I am the future. I am that I am. I am Ubuntu. I am Ubuntu. I am Africa. We shall be on that bus. These were wonderful. I know you'll agree with me. I didn't know there were so many ways, specific and different ways for poetry to be wonderful. I'm sure you'll have questions. We have about ten minutes. If nobody, if you need some time, do we have one? While you are thinking about them, I wonder if I can invite all of our speakers and translators to comment briefly on the form of their novels, on the formal properties of what they've just read. It's all very different. They have clearly very different organising principles. So if you could say a few words about that and maybe the difficulties of translating that form into the language. Right. I won't give a whole lecture on this. Actually, if you want to... No, I was joking. I was only joking. Okay. There's two things to listen out for in the Somali. I should maybe mention this. First of all, it's the meter, so it's metrical. The meter that he uses in this poem is one called Barad-e.  Do you get variations on that theme? No, but it's alliterative. You would have heard maybe something that sounds like rhyme. I didn't hear rhyme, but I was wondering... What you get is a lot of syntactic parallelism, which then leads to what sounds like rhyme. But it's not rhyme as such. But what you do get is the alliteration. Every word in this poem, if you heard it, began with the word with G. Sorry, every line. It has a word beginning in G.  And it runs through the whole thing. Will the alliteration spot up a grammar of Somali? The alliteration is part of... I mean all Somali poetry is alliterative. So this poem in this meter, there's quite a number of different meters. According to the meter you have one or two words beginning in the same sound. But it's the sound that's carried through the whole poem. That gap gap gap gap gap gap through every single line. And it has to be a noun or a verb or an adjective or an adverb. You can't use pronouns or grammatical particles. You can't just... People's ears are attuned to when people are struggling with that. And they may be put a word in just for the sake of the alliteration. And you can't repeat words. So it's to translate it, isn't it? So I'm not speaking as a translator. But this PTC has published quite a lot of contemporary Somali poetry and translation. And as Martin says, every poem illiterates in a letter. But when you replicate that in English, unless you're very skilled, it can end up sounding forced because we're not used to seeing so much illiteration in English. Although older English poem has that feature. One of the poets who we've translated is called Ashalul Mohamed Yousaf, who writes in Somali but has lived in the UK for 20 years. So she's a UK poet really. She's been translated by a poet called Claire Pollard, who has very successfully put the illiteration into her translations. If you ever get a chance to read some of hers, they're on our website, etc. You'll see every line with the same letter and it works. It's a sign of real skill when you can make that sound echo through the poem without it seeming like you've just sort of shoehorned it in. But I guess that's the same in Somali. The really skilled poets can do it, making it seem effortless. I think the thing is what you have to sort of bear in mind is that to Somali ears, it's natural. So this is the thing, it's not natural to our English ears when you hear it. And if there was one line missing it, that would stand out hugely. And no, you just won't get a poem like this without missing the illiteration. A poet simply wouldn't do it. Ida, I saw your, we all saw yours printed. My colleague Alina can tell you more about Swahili poetry more than I can. The poem I chose is a free verse. It's a modern poem, it's called Shairi Lakissasa. But Swahili has a long history of very round and rhythmic poetry. Worker poetry. And in the 70s we had a lot of arguments, we talked about this on Monday at this talk, about how the poem I just read would have seemed as not real poetry because it does not have the rhythms and the meters and everything else. But personally I prefer these modern poems because I find that they carry the meaning more as opposed to the traditional poems. So yeah, that's just Shairi Lakissasa that you have with you there. Prof, I didn't expect you to sing. It was wonderful. Thank you very much. Tell us how you came to write it the way you did it and how you performed it. Yeah, you've got time. Well, as I was saying, I was inspired by the environment. And the fact that the first footprint of man was in Africa and in that area. So as soon as we got onto the bus, I started scribbling. And I think going over my papers, I would discover that that which I scribbled first became the last part. I scribbled it, it came and so even it was an envelope, you know, just scribbled. And we continued and I continued scribbling all sort of papers. Then when we got to when I got to a crowd, I finalised that piece. And I asked for the time when to know when the Clinton visited Ghana, because I don't remember the date, but it was in that year that we heard that he was coming to visit Ghana to Africa. And Ghana was going to be the first stop and that was going to make a statement to Africa. Now, while in the midst of the creation, I decided that that piece was going to be Africa's message to the world. So that's how I went about the poem confirming and affirming the primacy of the African footprint in the scheme of things. And it came out beautifully. There was a conference in Stockholm, World Culture Conference. And that was the first place where I gave the first world reading of this poem. Then, 1992 or 2003, Nadim Godiman invited me to South Africa to attend her birthday celebration. And previously in 1991, Lester Mandela had come to Ghana to say thank you. He said thank you to all through the world. And at a forum called Mandela Forum at the International Conference Centre, the people outside were more than the people in the conference hall. And it was Broker's life. After Mandela spoke, I was the only other person who spoke by performing a poem called Mandela Despier, which I wrote on the night that he was released from prison. So when I visited Nadim Godiman, immediately I got there around 5 p.m. She said, well, we've been invited to State House. So I was to escort her because her husband was very adverselate. So a car came for us and we went to pick up the Mandela's lawyer who handled the Rivona trial. So we took him and we went to State House. It was a dinner in honour of the Chilean president. Now, around our table, we have also divided the Deputy Foreign Minister of South Africa. When he discovered that I was a poet, he said, what?  Protocol. After the next speaker, he goes, what was I to do? I don't know my poems of Barat. Luckily, on that occasion, I took a poem and put it in my pocket because I'd been a Barat before. It was this poem that I took. So I probably got up and went to the podium. And I told Mr Mandela that I'd been sent from Ghana to come and take him back.  The first was when he came to Ghana, if you remember. This time, I'm giving him a different poem. The Bondos of Ubuntu after all, Ubuntu comes from Southern Africa. And so I performed this poem and it was quite interesting. And when I finished, I set about going to my table. Not knowing I should have gone behind on to the days to shake their hands. So I shook their hands a long way in front of the table. And the next day was the birthday of Mandela Swaya. So Madam and I, we went to the party. We went to George Bezos' home. And as we were driving, she said, the president is coming. So he let me put my car aside. I thought it was the president of the law firm of George Bezos. No, no, it was Mandela. So we got aside. He passed and then we also came in and we all sat together. We sat at the same table with Mandela. So this is an interesting history to this poem which really has been... I'm happy that I've been blessed to produce this poem for Africa. We are really privileged to have had you. I hope somebody's recorded. Our time is up. These poets and translators are hopefully going to stay around for a little longer if you want to get their autograph or talk to them some more. But now I believe we have to make space for the closing of the conference. Thank you very much.


Good morning, everyone. Dr. Saul. We're here in Upland. We're doing some new consorts and follow-ups. And we have this fine young gentleman who came and saw us about a year ago for his gynecomastia. Look at that gladiator chest we gave him. We took out the fat, we took out the gland and he was prone to getting keloid scars. You could see for some reason around the areola or the way we did it, he got no keloid scar. Raise your arms up all the way. Look at how flat and empty he is. This is as you could see his pec muscle beautifully. His chest is nice and flat. It's healed, great. Look at that V-shaped and look as he stretches his arm. There's nothing there. It's nice and clean. Put it down. You can see his scars. You can't even, you can't even see your scars, right? No, they blend really nicely. They blend in nicely. You could go without a shirt at the beach pool. You're ready for this summer. Yeah, I'm all ready. How do you feel? I feel great. How was our surgery? Everything was great and the results are the best. You're happy with our results? Super happy. Super happy I came through? Yeah, thank you. Appreciate it. No problem, my friend. Another happy gynecomastia patient. It's a difficult surgery, but we've mastered it here. Remember, we do it three to four of these a week. So we know what we're doing. Thank you very much for sharing your story with everyone. Hello, everyone. My name is Jose. I'm about 11 months out from my surgery. The whole entire experience was great. I had about two months down time from outside of the gym. Other than that, everything has healed nicely. You can't even see my scars and I'm so happy with the results. How was the recovery? The recovery wasn't too bad. Just a little bit of soreness and I guess stretching was a little bit difficult the first couple weeks, but after that, it was great and no issues. Perfect. Did you have to take any pain medications? Just the day of the surgery. I had to take pain medication, but after that, I was fine. No pain medication after about two to three days. And you said, how long were you? Did you have to take off work or? I didn't take any time off work. Just off of the gym. I was out of the gym for about three to four weeks until I felt comfortable to start working out again.


we'll open to questions from the audience. So Catherine Coray wrote to me and she said, the idea for me is that this round table is an opportunity for exchange, to raise questions, to imagine possibilities, and hear what people need in the way of mentorship. So we're here with an exceptional group of leading artists and activists in the Middle Eastern American community. To get us started, I would like to set the stage for our conversations. I take a very deep and broad, and I suppose personal view of how we mentor and are mentored by people in our lives, in our work and in our communities. I'm basing my comments on the simple dictionary definition of a mentor as an experienced, trusted person who gives someone personal or professional guidance or training over time. So I wonder, if we all reflect, are we mentors to someone? Have we been mentored by someone? And what has been the meaning of that relationship in our lives? Maya Angelou said, in order to be a mentor and an effective one, one must care. You must care. You don't have to know how many square miles are in Idaho. You don't need to know what is the chemical makeup of chemistry or of blood or water. Know what you know and care about the person. Care about what you know and care about the person you're sharing with. I find that idea really moving. That mentorship has to do with a commitment of the heart, both to another or others, but also to the thing shared in common. Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote, our chief want in life is somebody who will make us do what we can. And I love that idea of mentorship because it has to do with activation and the empowerment of someone else. Oprah Winfrey said, a mentor is someone who allows you to see the hope inside yourself. And that's maybe the most profound power of mentorship is to generate hope for a different future. For some in the MENA community, and I've talked to some of you guys, mentorship is focused more outward on gaining access to opportunity, representation and authority within a larger context. But for others, mentorship is focused more inward on engaging with a local community, growing a company and building internally. And maybe for someone else, it might be about reaching across generations and other boundaries of opportunity or access. So to explore all of these possibilities, we have some wonderful people on the panel who I'm now gonna, a round table, who I'm now gonna introduce. So to my right is Evern Odzkin. He is a stage director, translator, interim associate artistic director at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, a founder of Maya, did I say yes? Maya Directors and long-time director of new plays and marketing here at Golden Thread Productions and also a Golden Thread resident artist. To his right is Raymond Bubgun, who is the executive artistic director of the Cleveland Public Theater. Here from Cleveland, a stage director and deviser and a recent creator of a new company called Masra Cleveland Al Arabi. And to Raymond's right is Pia Haddad, Lebanese-American founder of 3K squared productions and a freelance producer and one of TCG's rising leaders of color, 2018. To her right is the inimitable, unforgettable hostess with the mostest, Taranjieh Ghizarian, playwright, director, translator, writer and the founding artistic director of Golden Thread Productions and the re-orient festival and forum. And one more to the right is Yusuf Elgindi, playwright and long-time Golden Thread resident artist. I don't even know all the roles that you've played at Golden Thread, I think. That's right, it wasn't me. Most produced playwright. Most produced playwright, yes, whoo-hoo. And to his right, Adam El Sayig, New York-based Egyptian playwright, translator and arts producer. So, to kick us off, I'm going to ask each of you and you can jump in or we can go in a row. Do you see yourself as a mentor in your personal or your professional life? And if yes, how? And if not, why not? Hi, everybody. Yeah, this is an interesting question because I think the world told me I was like four years ago probably and I really resisted the idea. I think maybe this is true for a lot of mean artists but so much of my artistic and administrative identity was wrapped up around being the underdog and being the emerging that I was like holding on to that emerging title because all the grants go to that title like white knuckling on that title. And then all of a sudden people started asking me out for coffee to ask new actors, new directors and it was so confusing because it was. I was like, why don't you ask someone else? And then once I started saying yes to some of those conversations, I realized that, oh, I do have something to offer to someone who's coming, you know, trying to follow a similar path as me and that was weird. And I'd say still a role that I play a little, you know, unwillingly sometimes but just because I have received such great mentorship from quite a few people on this panel actually as well as many others, I take it very seriously so it's been a thing that if I'm gonna say yes, I'm gonna be a mentor, then I feel the commitment to have to do it really well and that is something that I'm working on, I guess. Yeah, thank you, thank you, everyone. And just to comment, there's a young woman, I'm working on a project in Nairobi and there's a young woman who I'm mentoring as a producer and she wrote me the other day and I said sorry for something and she said, oh no, no, where I come from mentors are perfect. And I said, oh, but wait, I may be your teacher but you are teaching me in many ways too. And so sometimes there's a reciprocal mentorship notion and Raymond, you and I talked about that a little bit. This is a pretty, this is kind of a tricky question for me, I think there are some formal mentorships that I've been involved with, but particularly with Maasra Kleevan at Haribi, it's really been more about there's a training environment, there's a teaching environment, but I mean for me when I think about mentorship in that group, I think about being mentored by the company that created this play, in creating this play, this woman, Ibad Dubyab, wrote this amazing poem that mentored me about what home means and taught me something about myself and just a boss and his incredible performance. So I think for me in relationship specifically around Maasra Kleevan at Haribi, yes I am a teacher, I'm a director, I'm working in with this group, but it's really about us mentoring each other, there's so many different cultures represented, there's so many different viewpoints. And so it's really, yeah I guess when you read all of those wonderful things I think isn't that what we're all doing all the time or hopefully when we're in our best selves? So yeah, but I'm uncomfortable with the word mentor because it implies some kind of status difference which is confusing. Well we talked about that just briefly when we had coffee before coming over here today and it's so true isn't it? I mean mentor-mentee, we tend to think of it in a hierarchical sense. If I'm the mentor then there's some sort of status relationship and when you're in a reciprocal mentorship relationship you don't want to have that, but dealing with it can be hard to take on the mantle or hard to know what does that mean to me. So Pia I'm wondering, because you're a younger person and one of the ways I guess in which we understand mentorship is often across differences in age. So what is your thought? So exactly I was thinking exactly of that because I'm relatively new in the industry but I guess that there was a shift where I launched myself I guess in this world and I took initiative and I received mentorship which really made a difference into what I was able to do and what I hopefully am continuing to learn to do. And so what happens is that if I, for example, you know being Lebanese I have younger Lebanese who just came to the US who want to work in the arts and you know if we have common friends they sometimes reach out to me. So I guess like if I have a bit of knowledge that I can share I'm always happy to because I realize how big of a difference that made to my career. So I guess formally being a mentor my answer would be not really, but as you said I think I learn as much from people asking me questions. I learn about myself and I learn about them and the craft and the skills. So yeah. I'm kind of curious and this is a bit of just to think about and maybe answer but now or later, no pressure. But so someone who's younger like earlier in the session we were looking at how does leadership and you are a young leader how does leadership advance, move? And so now sitting next to you is who we often call the mama of, la mama. I'll take it from daddy. Because Golden Thread in its birth was the first company in the United States to focus its energies on the peoples and the stories of the Middle East. So how do you feel, Taranj, about your role in an intergenerational way? I mean it's interesting because I find myself always surprised by things that are second nature to me but new to others. I remember many conversations that Evern and I would have and I would like just casually go over a bunch of things and then he'd be like, really? You thought about this? This is how you, and I realized I think in talking to others who were maybe newer in this work that so much of what we do is just natural or organic or I don't know, it's just in you and then you begin talking about it to others and you understand that you are in a position to teach but also I think there's so much that you learn in that process because ideas are crystallized in your own mind, intentions are illuminated in speaking with Evern, for example, about Golden Thread's founding and so many things that we articulated very early on in our work, I realized how intentional we were about many decisions and I hadn't thought about that before so I benefited from being in a position to speak to someone who was newer in this work and I learned a lot that way. I have also benefited from being counseled by you, for example, Roberta being counseled by Ellen Sebastian Chang, for example, who has mentored me in a formal capacity before as an artist I struggled identifying as an artist.   And I didn't own it and I think it's great good to surround yourself with people who know more than you do, who are more experienced but also people who know less and are less experienced so that they can be a dynamic exchange. I think the key is that dynamic exchange and being engaged with each other, which I think is based on caring. Thank you. It seems like sometimes there's a mentorship that's intentional and sometimes it's leading by example and I think of you Yusef not to forge your comments because you were ready to speak but I think of you as someone who leads by example and therefore like it or not, you're a mentor to many people. Well, I think we all suffer from self-esteem issues. Oh no. Playwrights. Yes, yes. Yeah, I think, you know, I think and I think mentorship is in the eye of the beholder. I mean, I certainly don't think of myself as a mentor and I think to a degree. I mean, when I think of a mentor, I think of somebody who's achieved a level of success and you go to that person and you go, well, how did you achieve the things you did and can you help me, you know, in terms, you know, either professionally or in terms of, you know, getting on in the work and the particulars of the business and you know, more often than not, I go, I don't know, you know, you just, here's my experience and then you just, in terms of mentorship, you go, well, here are the struggles I've had. Here's what I've had to do to overcome certain obstacles. I mean, if becoming a mentor, it's mentor by default in that you've just been in the game for a long enough period and you've gone through enough experiences and gathered enough, you know, knowledge about the playing field that you can offer some advice. But you know, also just mentorship, it does kind of suggest a level of success and to me, I'm still trying to get there. So it becomes hard for me to think of myself as a mentor. I do give advice when people approach me and they ask, playwrights, other theater practitioners from the men and community, I will, you know, give my two cents. But it's that sense of, am I successful enough to be a mentor? I don't know, so. That's so interesting to me because it sounds like we all have in our mind some sort of, you know, Platonian ideal of who a mentor is and yet here we are in the living of life and in the executing of our careers and efforts we make to do our work. We're grandpa or we're grandma or we're auntie or we're somebody, what we're saying is I've, this is my experience and this is what I've learned from it. Go ahead, Ann. This is so shocking to me because I've received, I would assume one of the younger people on this panel and I've reached out to many of you to receive mentorship. And so when Catherine invited me to be on this panel, I assumed that I was coming in like to talk about the experience of being a mentee, not a mentor, but also I have had people who are like just a year or two younger than me reach out to ask about a very specific thing that I've done or something I've been developing or how to approach dealing with this person, et cetera. And I remember going through, oh, why are you asking me?  And so to hear that some of you also experienced that at where you are in your careers is very shocking, but interesting. But yeah, I guess to speak to both being in that role where I definitely like don't say that, would not say that I identify as a mentor in the traditional sense of the word because I'm emerging new and kind of figuring life out in that way. That being said, I've realized that even in my own life, sometimes I reach out to people who are just like a step ahead of me in their career and I'm looking for a different kind of insight from that person than if I'm reaching out to ask around your question maybe. And I've also come to recognize that people who are like just finishing college or just thinking of majoring in theater, et cetera do reach out to me to look at that person who's also just like a step ahead of them. And then there's the transnational element which is what I was going to think about a lot which is what I was thinking about and thinking about a lot coming into the space because I feel like being somebody who's like not come from a background where anybody I know has ever been in the field of theater or even like five years ago I didn't know what theater was or like besides seeing the occasional Shakespeare revival. And so being in that space where people from that background have seen me be where I am now and ask me and specifically ask me about like how did you get to this organization? How did you get to New York? What is a grant? How do I write one? Questions that I think like I now take for granted but like yeah, five years ago I didn't know what even three years ago I didn't know what any of these things were. And so there is a very specific transnational diaspora element to the kind of mentorship that I both have received in the recent past and now find myself giving. Well that is beautiful, thank you so much because that's quite a range of ways in which we relate to that word personally but also inevitably professionally. And one of the things that it makes me think is that we get stuck in this idea that mentorship is about this action even use if you were like, you know, up there. But really life is, we could think of it kind of just which I prefer hiking on the, you know, flat these days. So, you know, it's just we start our journey and some of us are a few steps ahead and some of us are a few steps behind. And for those who are a few steps behind it's helpful to turn and say, oh watch, watch this is coming up. And for those of us who are a few steps ahead we could say, is it almost the end of the trail? When do we get to the waterfall? You know, so it may be that it's thinking about all of us as mentors. There's someone who's walking a few steps behind. There's someone who's walking a few steps ahead. So now I would, yeah, please. In our very self deprecating mode of meanness in this corner. I do want to say it's been really interesting just going through this very recent transition where all of a sudden like big position, Evan, you have it now that you've been working towards your whole life. It's a, I'm also trying to balance like I do have status. I have worked very hard for a while and have gotten some sort of status. Yusef, you have status. You have status. We can define what status is within our different communities but also I'm trying to not pretend like I don't have access, pretend like I don't have power, pretend like I don't have wisdom without ever. And that's been, as someone who's been, I say golden thread raised me, right? So Taranj is my theater mother in a way, older sister, older sister, you know? And the thing that she did so beautifully is, yes, she would sort of be like, this is what I learned but also never tell me what to do, right? So there can be great generosity in sharing wisdom without expecting the person who's coming up behind you to be the same as you. Sure. And I think that's something that I've learned from leading by example way, from Taranj that I'm really trying to hold solid for myself that if I am gonna step in as a mentor in any way, that it's not about like, this is the correct way to do it. It's about this is what I've done in my value system. Right. Do with it as you will. Yeah, you have to do. Yeah, anyway, I just wanted us to like also own our power, y'all. Well, thank you for bringing that up because thank you for bringing that up because power is part of what we look at sometimes in a mentorship context. Sometimes people who we think of as our mentors, we turn to them because they have power and access. And sometimes for the younger generation, that's exactly what you want. That's what you don't have. You don't have somebody's email. You don't have a phone number. You don't have the pieces of information that will help you take your path. So then the mentor, the person who has that information, power, what about that? What about power in relationship to me? Well, I mean, I think part of what this weekend is about is about a gathering and acknowledging that as a collective, we may get more power, have more power and be more of an influence in, I mean, that's what we're trying to do ultimately is to gather, empower ourselves and to let other theaters around the country to say, well, we are a voice worth listening to and hearing about. And so, you know, I mean, I think it is about power. And it's, and again, I hope this weekend becomes a sort of emboldening and empowering weekend. So, well, we're not perhaps as ineffective as we sometimes feel we are in isolation, you know? So. I wanted to follow up on that because the next question is really what is the responsibility as individuals to the larger group? So say that there's this expertise that's wandering around here in this room, bubbling up in different ways in different seats. And what you're saying, Yusuf, is that there's something about harnessing this power as a collective and therefore, what is each person's responsibility to share or give what power they have towards this common goal? I'm wondering what you all think about that. I wanna just respond by saying that there's a lot of frustration, I think, in our community feeling unheard and unseen. And I think what that does is we become less generous to each other. And sometimes we take out our first frustration on each other. And one of the things that I try to encourage all of us to do in the rehearsal room or in the office or whatever is to not blame each other for what is lacking but to look to each other for the support and the power or knowledge that we can gain from working together, right? I think one of the challenges is that I'm an artistic director and from the outside, people say, well, you choose the plays and you didn't choose my play and they see me as powerful and decision maker and yes, I own that, I am that, but I'm also working under a number of limitations that they're not aware of, right? And sometimes those limitations are excuses, as we well know, right? So we know many other decision makers who might tell me, well, you know, your play, I can't cast it, I can't find the right actors or I don't have, my audience wouldn't understand it. And I know in my gut that that's an excuse, but how do I have that conversation in a professional, intelligent, supportive way, right? So I think at every level, challenges arise that are unique, that are difficult, that require a different level of expertise and wisdom and we are constantly growing and are constantly in need of constant education and support and reminder that we just need to be generous with each other, you know, we're a small community. There are many differences amongst us, but we also share so much and there's so much that we can learn from each other and gain from each other. So I'm constantly reminded of how little I know despite like 20 years of being at it. And I think sometimes we become mentors by virtue of surviving the damn 20 years of struggle, you know, and here I am, you know, and it's just, it's a constant battle, but I don't wanna take it out on Adam or Yusef or Pia. I will take it out on Raymond, but yeah. Well, thank you for saying that, Taranj. I mean, the question of coming from a position of a lack of sufficient resources or sufficient attention does lead down a certain path. And what we're talking about here with mentorship is that it almost comes from an impulse of abundance. I have so much I can give you without cost. I mean, I remember, sorry, personal anecdote, but I was teaching in Romania and a young woman asked for some information and I gave it to her and she said, and what do you need in exchange? I was like, nothing, nothing. And she said, that's not how it happens here. Even for a piece of information, even for that website address or that person's name, I have to pay. I said, you don't have to pay. But in a situation of need, insufficiency, then sometimes that is what happens to the generosity that we can have. So, Adam, I see that you have something to say. I mean, yeah, because some of the conversation we've been having this morning has been about, what was the word, cultural consulting and things that are essentially us commodifying, and I don't say that with a negative connotation, our labor, and actually stating that that is labor that needs to be respected, and I'm curious what the fine line is between that and mentorship, which is to say that I have reached out to you in the past to request help for casting a very difficult role, and you didn't charge me money for giving me some advice. And what is the fine line between who are we interested in supporting and what does that mean versus, well, I mean, we're still supporting otherwise, but what are the different transactions that occur in mentorship, and what are the things that are exchanged in different capacities? Yeah, that is a super question, and I wonder if, I'm not sure, my first instinct, my first instinct, is to think, step back and ask, what is the goal? What is the goal? Because if the goal is, as you guys were talking about cultural consultants, if the goal is to mentor producing theater companies all around the United States, producing film companies all around the United States, and all kinds of media, if that goal is to, in a sense, mentor this broad base of practitioners and artists, then that's one goal. If the goal is for Evern to share with you a couple of actor names, that's separate from that bigger goal, and so maybe it does have to do with particularizing, being nuanced in what we think about, when we think about mentorship. Anybody have a thought about that? As we're talking about mentors, I've been thinking a lot about mentees, being a mentee myself, it's almost, and that's actually, I feel like I'm a really good mentee. I actually know how to do that really well. You know, I'm a bit of a sponge. I am, I like to put myself in situations where I know less than other people, and just like work with them, you know? And I guess the transaction idea is really interesting to me because a lot of times in my mentorship role, if I ever have one, it's about how much time I have. You know what I mean? So like that, in the definition you read over time, was an interesting thing for me. And I'm thinking of Nataki Garrett, who's the, you know, has been a mentor for seven years for me, but not like Terange, who I've seen every day, right?  That happened like once every year, once every two years. It wasn't, it was a commitment to me, but it wasn't like holding my hand. And then there's also, like I was thinking about this recently. I was in a very public forum, as is the case, you know, like being introduced to a bunch of people and I was asked how, how was it growing up queer in Turkey in that, and in that voice, you know? And it was just like, oh Jesus. And I, the only reason I knew how to respond to that is because I'm a big fan of Yusef's work and we had just produced Our Enemies where Noor, the woman in that play, has a rant about why she will not write about women's rights in the Middle East in the U.S. And I literally like took the rant out and said the words that Noor said on that stage and you know, that was Yusef's mentorship to me outside of the kind of like mentorship and opportunity he has created for me otherwise, but like there's just so many ways for us to learn from others. That is not always about going out for coffee, you know what I mean? Or getting a directing gig, or I don't know, there's just something about because time is so limited, especially for folks in leadership positions and even hustling freelance directors, you know? It's just, we never have enough time. Sometimes the mentee taking responsibility for the ways in which they're gonna learn can be a real empowering thing and it's been empowering for me in those situations where you feel helpless to be like, well, I'm gonna be in this room and learn something. You know, that is beautiful, everyone, to mention is that just like this sort of unconscious mentoring and mentee-ing that has, we've sort of floatingly talked about that when you become conscious, I want to be mentored, I need, and to ask for it. I mean, sometimes you'll be told, no, but sometimes you'll be accepted, you know, it reminds me of, I don't know, you know, learning to do a pot and you have to sweep the floor for years until you're welcomed to, I mean, there are many ways that people determine their receptivity to a potential mentee, but you have to ask because it's a gesture of oneself to express one's need. Or sometimes just show up and watch. Or just show up and watch, yes. Or read a play, read Taranj's article. Yes. Put yourself in a situation. Put yourself in the...  Yes, thank you.  Yes, so put yourself in the situation to learn. So this makes me want to ask, it sounds like, am I correct, that sometimes what's happening, there is mentorship that's happening in the Mina Middle East American community, but it's not happening in a very necessarily formal way or it's not happening in a sort of named way. Should it be more named? Should there be conversation about it like we're talking about now that there's a growing community that has a bedrock of expertise in various different ways, at various different stages and therefore it should be thought about with some intention and nuance as you're talking, Adam, I don't know. What do you guys think? I would love if there was a national program for Middle Eastern American artists, a mentorship program where, for example, theaters like Silk Road Rising in Chicago and Newark in New York and Golden Thread in San Francisco could formally mentor artists and administrators. If I could identify a source of funding for that, I would go after it. I have actually pitched it to a couple of funders, but one of the things I want to gather is data about who is out there, what is the need and then be able to maybe get somebody interested in funding it. Pia, do you have a thought about a need? What need do you feel as a young artist? Yeah, I guess in my case I sought out mentorship either in a paid form, it was a workshop for artists that wanted to self-produce. That's how I started. I was an actress who wanted to produce work to give opportunities to myself and others and then, you know, it turned into something else. But also, so for example, reaching out to Catherine Carré who's been so generous with time and information and connecting me with people. For example, Terrence then made the first play I produced. So, you know, this business shared. So I guess I was lucky in the sense that I took initiative and I was guided to and if that was formalized for other people who might not have those opportunities then, I mean, that fund, that grant would be amazing. There's definitely a need for it. Raymond, do you have thought about that? I don't know if I want to go on my mind, is that I'm thinking about mentorship on the board leadership and donation side. That's so important. I'm just thinking like, I think some comments were made earlier about how does funding work in the United States and what is philanthropy here? And also, for me, every time we start some kind of initiative or we think or thinking about community, we really look to the board and we try to move people onto that board fairly quickly. So just thinking about that and how, again, maybe not as interesting at this moment but really just thinking about those leaders in the community who we need, we need their expertise and we need their leadership and their guidance and how do we help them understand how to be leaders in our theaters who are not artists. That's interesting because you're sort of placing in one way of hearing what I heard you just say, you're placing yourself as a mentee. You're saying you have this expertise and this knowledge and this... Yeah, but I'm also saying, are there people on our boards, I'm saying like the theater leaders, who can mentor other board members and how do we think in our funding community, especially people who have maybe been here for a generation or so and how they can really mentor other people about philanthropy and about getting involved in civic engagement. Okay, great. It feels like it said there's just... Because the easiest way such a program which I think is a fantastic idea can be as like very emerging artists apply to a fellowship and come work for company, right? But what I feel really strongly about is like I am in desperate need of mentorship right now and Joe Hodge and J.U., like many of folk have from our communities and beyond are stepping in in that way. Terrange, as you said, you need mentorship right now, you need... So it's how do we create a program that has multiple levels so that someone who's mentoring someone can also be mentored, right? Like it's this whole intergenerational idea whether that be around age. How can it be for boards? How can it be for artists? How can it be for a marketing director? Because like marketing our shows, people need help, y'all. And is it about us mentoring each other? Is it about us mentoring white marketing director who needs to work on Middle Eastern? I don't know. I would love us to, in our way, take that idea and make it big or at least flexible. That's something that I feel like because our community is so diverse, because our community's needs are so diverse, whatever programs we come up with for this network that we're hoping to launch, that they have multiple entry points. It feels really important to me. That sounds great. And I think there's, you know, early on in what Catherine sent me, artistic mentorship, but also administrative mentorship, board mentorship, advocacy, marketing, all these different topics that you're mentioning that you just brought up something that is an interesting question to me too. And I'm just wondering what you all think about it, which is one very strong possibility is to reach out in this large network of the Middle East American network of activity, that there are board members at your theater who could talk to board members at that theater who could talk to. There are administrators at this theater who could talk to, as well as there are artists at this theater who could, you understand. But then I wonder what is the role of allies or people outside or expertise? How is that valuable? If it's valuable, when is it valuable, Adam? I was going to say that one kind of, and again, like even this conversation we're having is helping me articulate to myself the differences between mentorship and maybe learning or teaching. Because one thing I'm thinking about is do we need to mentor or educate? And so how is that different people in positions of power in artistic programming in theaters elsewhere who are not Middle Eastern? And what I'm thinking is that like a huge part of allyship, and if people really claim to be allies, the first step to that I think is being very welcoming and gracious of being told what they're doing wrong, which is in a way a sort of mentorship from people like all of you. And so I think like a fundamental part of allyship is essentially having this conversation where we can address with people in positions of power in mainstream theater who are not from the Middle Eastern community what it means for true representation and how that matters. I'm really curious about, I know you're going to open it up to everybody. I'm really, there's so many questions that we've already been posed. I'm just so curious to hear what others are. You need to pass on the floor. Yes, so yes. Yeah, thank you Maya.  Thank you everybody. Is it on? It's a fabulous panel. I want to go back to something that we talked about in the last meeting, and that is we are all theater artists. Theater needs audience. Audience is the one that provides the money that would make producers interested in doing theater. Are there any kind of plans or can we think of anything that we can do to create a better ratio of education and mentorship, mentorship between our audience and the stage? In another word, we have the, how do we deal with the house stage ratio? That's a question. Anybody? Yeah. I'll take a quick, just a little picture. And that is for us at Cleveland Public Theater. When we launched Theatro Publico to Cleveland, which is very similar initiative, but it's a little further along, what we said was we think some of our standard typical audience are going to come to this. We don't really have a typical audience because we don't have a subscription base, but we have a lot of different constituents and a lot of different communities. But we were especially interested in, because we were working with these Latino or Latinx artists, that we really wanted to, that to be in the audience and dated too.  You go to the wedding, but the vows only take a small portion. And so, you know, if you went to an early production of Theatro Publico, you come in, there's food, there's dancing, there's a play, and then there's more food and dancing. And we followed the same thing with Maastricht, Cleveland, and then what happens is there's a real natural growth of saying, we actually don't need the rest of that stuff. We can focus more and more on the play. So I don't know if that's really mentorship or strategy or something, but the other thing I just wanted to say was also really been interesting for me is watching the cross mentorship of these two groups, Theatro Publico, that's a company that's now six years old, started predominantly with amateurs and now how they are mentoring Maastricht, Cleveland, and Alarbi, which was started with predominantly amateurs, and then working together. It's been really beautiful to see that just kind of naturally happen. And I think that's something about allyship is I think when your heart's in the right place it just kind of, those connections just happen organically. Sure. Thank you for the mic so they can hear you. I think it's also important to create that kind of a connection. You're talking about education basically, you're educating your audience as to what it is that they're coming there to see. We, I'm an Iranian and there is an Iranian theater in California, a larger one in LA and a smaller one up here and other parts of the, but our audience are not educated. They don't know what really, what to look for when they go into theater. And I'm curious to see what can we do whether or not a connection between various stages of the Middle Eastern theater would help educate audiences who may not be of that specific nationality about the other cultures. In another world what I'm trying to say is that here I see we have, you know, eight people, seven people sitting there are from different parts of the Middle East doing theater. We have in the audience we have, I noticed that we have a good number of Iranians in our audience which is fantastic. How can we create that kind of a connection between these two stages? So the Iranian people would go see the Arab theater, the Palestinian theater, and Palestinian audience will come to see Iranian theater. Okay, Taran, do you want to speak about reorient? I don't know if that's a way that you try to address it. Reorient was designed to facilitate that. We noticed in our early years that there was sort of insularity in our audiences. People were initially more drawn to plays that were more directly about their cultural heritage. So we designed reorient so that it's an evening of multiple short plays from different cultures so that our audience would be, you know, a diverse audience from different cultures. Over time there's been a lot of, at Golden Thread there's a lot of, I don't know if it's cross-pollination, but now we have a core group, a core audience that I would say is probably half not Middle Eastern and half Middle Eastern of various backgrounds who's pretty devoted to our work. It's a small group, and then other than that group then there's always new audiences that come to the work. But I think the question of audience engagement and audience development is a complex question and it's not just unique to Middle Eastern community. I think there is a question of the role of theater in the U.S. and people's relationship to theater. I remember, I'm going off on a tangent, but when I was in Tehran, first of all theaters are packed and it's very diverse audiences from all different classes of society, all different ages. And then after they see the play the cafes are packed with people debating the content of the plays as if their lives depended on it. And I'm like, oh my God, this is theater that matters. This is theater that makes a difference. And that doesn't exist in the U.S. It doesn't exist in New York, it doesn't exist here. And that's just how it is. So we can talk about how to change that, but I think it's going to take a long time. Well, thank you for those questions, Mahmoud. And just, did you want to speak? I did have one, like, sort of jumping off of multiple things that are said about cross-pollination. I mean, I'm stealing Tehran's term here. You know, we're one of the most recent immigrant communities in a certain way, at least in the way that our stories are now counted as, hopefully, American canon. You know, we're slowly getting there. But there have been other communities that have done this. Like, the oldest theater company devoted to the Middle East is 22 now, 23? Where are we at? Golden Thread. 24, 24 years. The oldest Asian-American theater company is 50-plus years old. Right? So there is a way in which that kind of mentorship or at least access sharing can happen across communities. In any sort of, like, lord league of regional theater, you know, this sort of the larger theaters of American theater world, my, a lot of my closer mentors in that world have been Asian-American, black, you know, like Latinx-American. So it had a, mainly because we're just starting, right?  So Joe is not the only one anymore, poor thing. Joe Hajj, you know, so it's, in a way, I think there is also something about taking care of each other, obviously, of ourselves, creating community here, and that's so important. And then, I don't know if this is formalized as part of a mentorship thing, or is it just being a bit more intersectional in terms of a lot of different immigrant or marginalized communities and how sometimes the best mentor for me might be coming from the Asian-American community because of the kind of work I'm interested in doing, rather than another Middle Eastern director. So it's, I think it's all about, like, creating community and making sure that it's open enough so that other allies, whether that be from the mainstream communities or other marginalized communities, can step in with us, you know, stand with us, that feels really important. You know, what you're talking about strikes me as framework. It's framing your perspective in implicitly educating the audience by your framing. You frame reorient as a group of plays from diverse locations. You frame Cleveland Public Theater as Teatro Público and also Massara Auroby. And the public theater in New York framed, this play is black and this play is white and everybody meets in the lobby, as did the Los Angeles Theater Center for many years. This play is white, this play is black, this play is Latino. And the audience met in the middle and the artists were framing implicitly how they saw the world by the work they were doing and the way they presented that work and then it had a kind of mentorship example. Another question out there? My question about being a mentor, I think about when I was much younger and I had people that I reached out to as a mentee, there was a lot of people I worked with I admired and for a long period of time I never reached out to them because I thought, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to overstep a boundary, I don't want to bother them, and then eventually I got over that. Now, as a theater educator, I have a kind of mentor role to students and I do sometimes recognize students that have a lot of raw talent and I want to say to them, this is how you can do this or you need to send this play out, how you start submitting your plays out to the world. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on, as a mentor, how do you sometimes reach out to the mentee and say, hey, you need some guidance in this area or for it to be meaningful, does the mentee really need to reach out to you? Anybody want to toss out an answer to that? I think there are two things that happen. One is, you know, I look for talent and I look for dedication and when I see that in someone, then I become more generous to that person because they're also doing the work. But there are many, I'm sorry to say, who just email and say, can you send me a list of... I'm like, no, you look it up and you find your list and then if you have a specific question, I'm happy to answer it. I've had people emailing me not knowing anything about Golden Thread or not having even looked at our website for our information or production history and that's really annoying, you know? Or somebody asks me a question or asks for a recommendation and I make it and then next time they ask for a similar thing I find out they didn't even, let's say, read, they didn't even read the play that I had recommended to them first, you know? So there's a given take, I think, if the person is A, talented, B, dedicated, then I'm more willing and more available. If those things don't exist then it becomes, you know, I politely decline now because it can take up a lot of time. Yeah, and to go off of that, one of the initial questions that you posed was the idea of formalizing mentorship and I didn't say then because I thought that would be a very unpopular opinion but one of my concerns, I've been in mentorship programs that are not pertaining to theater or the Middle East where the program is so easy to access and not only so easy to access but almost it's encouraged by institutions where the people that show up are most of the people that had shown up and I speak from a mentee end but a lot of my fellow mentees were not invested or did not necessarily put in the work or show dedication so while I do think that having people, having potential mentees be aware that people can be resources is important, I think somebody going the extra step to show that they're actually invested in doing whatever they are seeking mentorship for is important and I wonder how that can be explicitly codified as a part of the process of the formal mentorship program Yeah, that's a super interesting question I keep thinking of having steps that you have to hit you have to hit this mark you hit this mark you get the next you hit this mark you get the next Because we're in this specific moment talking about MENA mentorship the hardest thing for me and I've been on both sides of this equation fairly recently and it can be really hard both ways where I'm Middle Eastern I find a Middle Eastern artist that I want to be mentored by and my assumption is that because I'm Middle Eastern they should it's so easy to feel like they owe you something Does that make sense? You're like, come on, you know how hard this is you're supposed to help me, right? They don't, actually I mean, hopefully they can have a sense of generosity about it, but I just wonder and similarly for me sort of what you're talking about when I was at Golden Thread especially people would be like, I would love to work with you I was like, have you seen any of my shows? Why do you want to work with me? Oh, because I'm Turkish, that's nice but like, do you have any idea what we do at Golden Thread? You might think our shows are terrible you know, we don't do shows for everybody's taste so like, if you're looking for a specific kind of Middle Eastern work in your mind this might be a terrible place for you so I think that like, showing up part of mentorship I guess is really interesting to me not even just like, you know, volunteering yes, I was an intern for two years that's how I got started, although it's harder now because everything is so expensive but I guess there's just a question of are you going to the work? are you supporting that artist so that you have grounds to ask them to support you I guess that's one thing but I also don't want to I guess it depends on the largeness of the ask like if you're asking me just a question of course like, we can have a conversation that's fine, I'll send you an email back but if you actually want a mentorship relationship there has to be a commitment to each other and actually a knowledge of each other's work before that can organically be useful I mean, I think maybe Tarek, it's a decision you make for yourself when you meet that potential apprentice, mentee it's a decision you make someone else makes in regards to you but I think that what we love about what we do is not just the result of it but the work of it and I guess for myself I always say you have to meet me halfway I can lead a horse to water but I can't make him drink and so, you know, I can do this much but you have to meet me halfway and I know what halfway means to me and I guess it's for each of us to know what we mean by meet me halfway and if they don't it might not be the right mentorship relationship somebody else, yeah, Tracy I actually just want to ask a question to the room just kind of seeing who's in the room and what kind of mentorship people in this room are looking for and are you getting it and if you're not getting it what do you think the barriers are that are preventing you from getting that mentorship great I've been a playwright for many years I'm currently trying to break into television and finding mentorship in that world is really hard it's very much about access and connections I think it's I know who I want to be my mentor I just haven't been able to access them or get to them it's not like theater where you can go to a show it's like a network so I think it's just not being able to be in the same place as them that's been my challenge so sorry, a pathway I mean it's not necessarily a direct pathway to that person meaning it isn't necessarily from here to tomorrow but if you knew there was a pathway yeah me, oh, hi I think a challenge that I am facing is so I am a political organizer as well as a theater artist and I think because of my politics and because of the way that I have been trained to engage with people in a professional capacity pushback often happens and I think like it is never from when I approach people or approach ideas or things that I have issues with it is never without the reverence for the fact that so many people had to struggle before I could even dream of asking whatever question or thing that I could be asking but there's this disconnect where I don't and maybe it's because it's not like interfacing but where that it feels like a challenge versus me being a curious person if that makes sense can you give an example I guess engaging with theater that I would have an issue with or something it is never trying to challenge in a way that is disrespectful or whatever I guess whatever you define that as but being told I think by reason of my age or experience that it is disrespectful not to just inherently accept what has been previously done in our community so that is a challenge I am facing right now just a quick I feel like there's something about politics that you're clicking into in that that I just want to echo from my end of when you identify publicly as Middle Eastern or Middle Eastern North African or Muslim or Palestinian God forbid you know you're politicized your existence is politicized in every space you enter and I think I received amazing mentorship from folks here around how to exist on the spaces and hold my ground but also not be used against me and I continue to need that mentorship from different folks I just feel like there's something about how to engage in political conversations or stand in our political identities or non-political identities of wanting to tell a family story from our region there's just something question Tracy for me personally around that that we need to be generous with each other about if we want to make theater outside of our community how do we disrupt that narrative of being politicized with grace too or stand in our politics firmly okay so I'm thinking a lot about institutional cultures and cultural change and it sounds to me like we can build a culture of mentorship in which commitment is part of that commitment and assumptions and what each party wants maybe on a collective level and yeah that's what I was thinking about I had some other ideas too but yeah well that's great I mean that's a powerful thought in the midst of this group of people that the collective generosity here is possible and I don't know if this is an answer to what you're saying but sometimes I wonder it's just an idea is there a way to have the disruption space I mean that at least within this group it's a space it's called the disruption space and when I enter it that's how I'm coming in I'm coming in to disrupt and if you generous others come and be present for that event that's what's going to happen in this space and I'm not trying to contain it I'm just trying to give it permission that it's not you're not trying to knock a wall that does you're not trying to knock the wall there is no wall it's a space there's a welcome there because I think for young people it's my sense I don't know Adam you're nodding what I'm going to say might sound and I will go off what I'm going to say might sound a little idealistic but I have I have been I have been in mentorship relationships where I expressed certain sentiments about something I didn't like about how a certain facet of macro theater culture is in the US or so on and the other person resisted that and resisted like any kind of like disruption by the other person I mean somebody that I was hoping to have as a potential mentor and it became like very clear that that mentorship was not going to happen and at that moment I was very angry at myself angry at the other person but like looking at it six months later I'm kind of glad it didn't happen because do I want to biosmosis gain the beliefs and ideals of this person who represents the status quo and then perpetuate it myself and so in a lot of ways like I guess it's like a relationship some of the times it's not meant to happen and that's fine can I just want to add something just in terms of politics again we live in the US it's a country where some people believe you can be not political right we have many times in our audience or among our artists conversations begin by I'm not political but da da da so that's that's not really possible everybody's political everything is political particularly people who think they're not political are in fact embodying a political decision right so the challenge is how do we have difficult political conversations in this environment especially when we come from you know most of us have families in the countries that are being impacted by US policies in the Middle East and how do you remain objective is that even possible you can't remain objective of course I'm emotionally invested and of course I'm frightened every time something comes out of the White House that threatens Iran of course I'm shocked when someone questions the Armenian genocide of course I'm offended when someone questions Palestinian rights to their own homeland right and I'm moved in a visceral way and I'm angry but that's not a place to have a conversation so my challenge has always been how do we create a space where we can have these difficult conversations in a way that we can learn from each other and we can find that the common pain it's not even common ground it's the common pain where we're all suffering in that way so that we can be better and we can challenge these horrible policies that affect all of us if it's happening to if it happened to the Armenians then it happened to the Jews then it happened to the Palestinians it happened to Rwanda it goes on and on and on so it's to all of our benefit to just build stronger spines and bigger hearts and go out there and listen and see each other as we say at Golda Thread see each other in each other's stories and be able to have and these are difficult conversations I'm not going to they are difficult and sometimes we've had in our Benedictus project we had many difficult conversations and at Reorient we have often had difficult conversations because the audience is mixed and people come with their own fears and their own assumptions about where you're coming from with your comment and those conversations can be difficult but they're at the same time the most rewarding I would say moments of theater that I remember at Golda Thread I guess the sorry two things can we also this is going to sound really idealistic too but like I'm just really thinking a lot about joy as an act of resistance at this given moment for myself so I wonder if we can also find our common joy in argument that can we say this network of Mina artist is going to disagree and we're going to love disagreeing with each other does that make sense I just don't know and I just like the thing that I'm really appreciative of my time with Golda Thread and other places where I've received mentorship like Cleveland Playhouse actually Jesus Christ Public Theater very different about what I'm about to say is that that was part of it that we would laugh you know what I mean that there was laughter in difficulty as is the case in our cultures so that's common joy feels really important to me and the idea of allowing people each other to be where we are right like that's the hardest thing for me I guess because I've grown up at Golda Thread there are certain political conversations or engagement to political conversations that I'm comfortable with because I've been doing it for 15 years with this company and then I get frustrated at someone I'm supposed to be mentoring when they aren't quite ready because that happened with us I wasn't like I didn't have the words to actually describe how I was feeling about a thing you probably did but you weren't just gonna tell me what to say it can be a journey identifying as Middle Eastern can be a journey identifying publicly as Muslim can be a journey saying like I'm Muslim and queer deal with it that took 15 years in this country for me to be and I don't have to explain that to you I don't have to explain how that works that's not something I owe you but these are all things that happened because I was given time to muck about and this idea of holding each other accountable for our political truths also is interesting to me of like allowing space for people to come to their political identity artistic identity within our spaces and that can be as powerful a mentorship sometimes holding that space as providing the answer or the wisdom that that person doesn't have and I'm sort of really imagine our future for this network those are two things that feel really important do we have one more question yeah I have a question because I don't have any mentors and I wish I did although I maybe at this current stage I should be a mentor as opposed to a mentee but the question I had is when I first started doing the cultural consulting work I approached it like the consulting work I used to do in tech many many years ago which was this person's hiring me my job is to make their work as best as possible so I didn't necessarily go in with my own political agenda and such but one of the things that I found really interesting was in rehearsal rooms all the non-mina people listened to me and they took every word that I said very seriously but I always had combatants or descent from the Mina people and a lot of types it was more to or at least that's how I took it is that they had to show their authenticity in their rehearsal room and how do I work with that because it basically I walked into it thinking those are going to be my allies but actually they were the people that I had to diffuse more often than not so I would love to get some advice on that anybody want to jump in I know you have an asset no it's interesting because the I think it's we're used to being the only person of Middle Eastern heritage in the room and the authority and when you're given the title of cultural consultant or I don't remember what my title was something even more authoritative than that I think I don't remember now what it was but like I I had to constantly do the opposite of cultural consultancy and say so this is what I think this is what I've read these are the sources these are the images these are the sounds this is what the playwright has written and even like the director would have me instruct the playwright which didn't seem right who was from in this case Iran and so what I ended up doing was I had private conversations with the playwright about what they're trying to get out get done with the play what their questions are where they need help and then have a separate conversation with the director and I didn't have issues with the cast in that production but there was disagreement between the playwright and the director in terms of how to depict certain things and then this one thing that happens that's really annoying is people turn around this has happened to us in our audience people turn around and say an Iranian woman would never say that or remember when we were working on highway they said there are there are no sinks in Afghanistan and so most kinds of like people make absolutist statements which you know of course are not useful so so I try to get away from that and really open up conversation about what how best to serve the play and really take it out of like it's my opinion or my knowledge and really serve the play and the playwright's vision but what has helped is to have separate conversations with them for me to have a better sense of what it is that they're struggling with or want answers to first first of all I just want to just say thank you to what's been said about disruption and compassion and finding how to have conversations because this moment where we are in the world it is about recognizing the differences and the complexity of who we are and all of our multiplicity of identity and then what is the opportunity of this community to become like fantastic in that way of arguing and discussing that we are so naturally our heritage calls on us it's just in us to this so I just want to hold that and see it as an opportunity for us to really lead on a national level in terms of how we are meeting these issues and others in communities that are comfortable in this way and also outside of in other communities in which we're working and then I had another question which is just about access and privilege which I'm thinking so much about all the time and how asking for a mentor is kind of a privileged way of talking that I really wasn't aware of when I was in early career and this way of oh I need a internship and that will give me this and then I will ask for this and then I will become this as the next level and these things to me strike me as things that are taught in an academic setting that is kind of so there's a whole way that it seems classes to me in a way and I apologize for that being reductive if it feels that way to anyone but so my question is in this community how are we seeking mentors or recognizing the mentors that are already doing the work in the way that Taranja said I don't even know I was doing mentorship as so many women who are holding space in so many places already doing in an and being unrecognized how and also so how are we recognizing those that are already doing it and then how are we seeking those that need mentorship from whom this community can so clearly benefit that don't even know how to ask for mentorship so that's kind of no no that was super good and I just want to say what you just said is a beautiful wrap because what you said was that we can be the leader and I think listening to you all and this conversation really making me appreciate how much you have mentored yourselves and how much you are continuing to mentor yourselves that Adam and you are in agreement women and young people we are in a disruption state we are going to mentor ourselves and Taranja and Yusef and you have been mentoring yourselves and so partly the reason you don't see yourself in that role is because you have been doing it with each other and it has been in this very collegial way but in fact the community is growing and it's much much larger much much more expensive and that's why it just strikes me that there's this new discussion that's happening this weekend and with the steering committee which is are we now at a place where the mentorship becomes slightly more intentional focused, pragmatic organized so that maybe before it was not even an idea but for the next days it's going to be an idea and it will be designed in this way and that way and I hope you all feel encouraged the time that has arrived and I just want to thank everybody on this team