So I recently did a video where I talked about my networking theories basically the Tactics that I follow every time I have to go to a networking event so I can make sure that I meet people and talk to them Etc. Etc. I think they're the literally the last videos that have been posted up and And anyway, thanks to one of the comments I realized that I posted what my tactics are But I didn't talk about how I pick and choose where to go and how to find these networking events and how to find the right events to attend Etc. Etc. And the reason for this is because I've actually already discussed this but not on these YouTube videos I discussed it in one of my courses. I discussed it in my course sales and marketing for freelancers So what I'm gonna do now is just show you an excerpt from this course the excerpt where I talk about how to pick and choose where to Go to these events and how to pick them and what the difference is in terms of price in terms of quality in terms of the type of people you meet for all these types of events and Yeah, and I'll have a link to the course in the description below as well in case you're interested in the whole course and But yeah, otherwise, I'll just roll the video Now at this point I should mention not to forget the real world everything we covered so far has been online But obviously there's a whole world out there right outside your doorstep and you should not neglect this If for no other reason it's just that a lot of people who work online online freelancers They do neglect this real world and so it'll give you a leg up And so you should always keep in mind that real stuff is happening Now having said that the best way to find out about it many times is online The first place I would say to check out is meetup.com if you go to meetup.com chances are there's some meetups happening at happening right now in your area and Chances are there's even something in your specialty or in your industry So search for meetup.com and see what's going on in your area Try to join some of the ones that deal with freelancing that deal with freelancing and your specialty so web developing Photography design whatever it might be and also once again with your specialization You know finance legal this that and the other meetup.com You can search and meetup.com by the way You can also use it to look for other stuff that might be of interest Maybe you're learning a new language on the side or you like hiking or you like travel You have meetups for pretty much anything you could desire so see what's going out there It's a great way to get out there and meet people and you can use that as an occasion To market your wares market your services and let people know what you do Another point is internations.org now if you are in a place like Europe or probably just outside the US Internations.org seems to be pretty big it doesn't seem as big in the US but one advantage of that is that The people who join it and who are members of it in the US tend to be very international So if you have any activity or any business that is international or could be international Then you can find this other group of people this other crowd of people in Internations internations.org so check it out as well and see what events are going on in your area It works similar to meetup.com in that it shows events Under internations that are going on in your city or your area Another place to check is co-working spaces co-working spaces in case you're not familiar Co-working spaces are spaces where you can basically rent out an office you can rent out a desk You can rent out a space to work a lot of startups use them a lot of freelancers use them a lot of entrepreneurs use them So it's a great place to meet other freelancers and entrepreneurs people in your same shoes So look for co-working spaces. Most of these will have events They're gonna have talks that you can attend. They're gonna have luncheons. They're gonna have drinks They're just gonna have things where they open up their space to potential Customers such as yourself, but also just to the co-working to the entrepreneurial world in general So look up co-working spaces in your area and try to get involved with what's going on because that's a great place To meet other people. If all else fails or in addition to whatever you're doing You can also just search for freelancers plus the city that you're in So if you are a freelancer in Brussels then search for freelancers plus Brussels. Obviously you want to search in the language That you're in as well So if you're in a place like if you're in Zurich then search for freelancers plus Zurich but also search for it in German as well and so then you can get some local people there and You can find out what's going on with the local freelancers in your area By the way, if you are in a place like Zurich, I would write it in German But I would also write it in English regardless no matter where you are You'll find that any international community will probably just set up something called freelancers and so if there isn't an international community where you are then try typing it in English and For because for a lot of things like this and especially working online many times the English terms such as freelancer Just become the lingua franca Another place to check is chambers of commerce chambers of commerce generally exist in every city and Many times they're neglected because you feel that only big businesses will go to chambers of commerce But this isn't true at all. A lot of chambers of commerce have events even if you don't want to pay for membership You can usually attend events such as luncheons or speeches etc that are either free or that don't cost much at all and This is a great way to meet a different group of people So if all these other places you've been meeting freelancers and entrepreneurs like yourself chambers of commerce You can meet potential clients or at least just a different crowd of people that might be interesting to get in touch with and to talk to So remember to check out your local chambers of commerce and not to neglect them Another thing is to find out where the people in your industry hang out once again if you're a freelancer if you are a Designer if you're an entrepreneur then they're gonna hang out most likely in co-working spaces or in certain types of meetups Etc etc, but it might be somewhere else as well. So try to get a feel for where they hang out Along those lines try to find out where your clients hang out as well and this means your specializations So once again if you design brochures or something for real estate companies Then try to find out where these realtors hang out to where their spots are where their meetups are where their meetings take place and where you're most likely to find them because Once again, this is a great way to hang out with potential clients and for them to get to know you so what if you've gone through all of these and You still can't find people to meet up with I mean, it's very unlikely But if you can't find any meetups or any Internations groups or any co-working spaces or anything else that it has potential clients that you can attend that suits your needs Well, then you can set one up yourself. In fact the easiest way to do so is to go to meetup.com and set up your own meetup They make it very easy there. Internations to set it up I think you have to pay you have to be in what's called an albatross member or something along those lines But for meetup.com you can set up your own meetup for free And I know because this is what I did when I first moved to Taiwan There wasn't a meetup for local entrepreneurs where I was and so I got together with Another guy who was also interested in setting them up and we just set it up ourselves and we ended up getting 3,000 members in the end so Chances are someone else is in your shoes. If you can't find any organization that suits your needs That's something that you want to attend I'll bet there are other people in your area and your same shoes And so why not set up a meetup.com and or set up a meetup on meetup.com And then you guys can meet up and what I did with my friend when we set these this up back in Taiwan We figured hey worst-case scenario. There'll be two of us drinking beers After a while we ended up getting more and more members and it ended up ended up being pretty pretty interesting. I'll say so If you can't find what you need then be entrepreneurial about it and set one up yourself


afternoon from Rome. But good morning or good evening, depending on where you're logging in from. Welcome to the Len dialogue webinar series. And thank you for joining us. Now, this is a regular series of webinars organized in partnership with the Ford Foundation, the Len portal foundation, the tenure facility, and the Johnson-Royges Foundation. My name is Thin, and I'm an independent food and climate journalist. And I'm delighted to be moderating this panel discussion today, which is going to be about indigenous food systems, why they're important, and what we can learn from them. We have some fantastic experts who will share their insights on this topic and demystify some of the misunderstandings around indigenous food systems. Of course, the first ever food system summit was held just last week. So we'll be reflecting on some of the outcomes from that event as well. But first, some housekeeping rules. Number one, this webinar is in English, with simultaneous translation in Spanish, French, and Portuguese. To access the translations, you just need to go to the bottom of your zoom window and look for a little globe icon. You can click on it and then select the language that you want. Number two, this webinar is going to last 90 minutes. We will first have a discussion for about an hour followed by about 30 minutes of Q&A. If you have questions, please use the Q&A box. Please post them there and not in the chat box. And feel free to tweet using the hashtag land dialogues, that is land dialogues in one word. So hashtag land dialogues and follow live tweeting also from the land porter and tenure facility Twitter accounts. We will also be recording today's session and we'll be sharing the link afterwards. Now, before we start the event, we'd like to first get to know the audience a little bit better. From what I understand, about 800 people have signed up for this webinar, which is fantastic and reflects the huge interest on today's topic. But we do want to know a bit more about who's attending this webinar. So we have a few short polls, which should be popping up on your screen right about now. There are two questions. One is about which region you are based in. Please select the region that you are currently based in. And the second question has to do with which sector do you work in?  Thanks everyone for participating. Now let's get back to the task at hand, which is Indigenous food systems. Now in July, the UN Food and Agriculture Organization released a report that took a deep dive into eight Indigenous food systems from the Sami in the extreme north of Finland to the Baka, which is a group of hunter gatherers who live in the rainforests of the Congo Basin in Cameroon. Now the report said that these systems are among the most sustainable in the world in terms of efficiency, not wasting and using seasonal produce. But the report also warned that these systems are at high risk from climate change as well as the expansion of various industrial and commercial activities like rural urban migration and food aid schemes that are not culturally appropriate. There's also land grabbing and an influx of highly processed, unhealthy, imported foods. And of course, we can't talk about Indigenous food systems without emphasizing the important link between the systems, healthy ecosystems, and food sovereignty, because Indigenous communities are custodians of some of the world's most biologically diverse regions. And the traditional and wild varieties of foods that they grow and protect could also be key to developing climate resilient crops. So there are a lot of fascinating strands. And I have four excellent speakers who will be helping us to understand these systems better. Let me introduce them in alphabetical order. Based on their first names. We have Diana San Jose, Program Officer of the Non-Timber Forest Products Exchange Program. That's a known as NTFPEP. We have Laila June, who is an Indigenous artist, scholar and community organizer from America. Her work focuses on Indigenous rights, traditional land stewardship practices, and healing intergenerational and intercultural trauma. We then have Christina Swidasca. Christina, I apologize for mangling your surname, who is the principal researcher at the International Institute for Environment and Development, or IED for short. And last, but definitely not the least, we have Sarah Oliveros Lopez, who is from the Nahua Indigenous group. And she is also the co-founder of the Interdisciplinary Center for Research and Alternative Development in Mexico. Sarah will be speaking mainly in Spanish. So how this is going to work is that I'm going to be asking a few rounds of questions to our speakers. And I would really like this to be a discussion. So I would encourage the panelists to respond to each other, you know, at each other's answers and built on them.  Now, for the audience, please use the Q&A box, like I said earlier, to send your questions. And also, if it is possible, please identify yourself and your organization. We will get to them during the Q&A portion of the event. Now, I want to start off by asking, you know, our speakers to tell us what are Indigenous food systems, why they're important, and what we can learn from them. And I would like to take, I'd like to ask them to take no more than, you know, three minutes each to answer this question. And I'm going to actually ask Sarah to start first, because she belongs to, you know, an Indigenous group herself. And I think she would be fantastic to just kick off this discussion to tell us what are Indigenous food systems, why are they important, and what can we learn from them? Sarah, please. Thank you very much, Tim. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good afternoon, Latin America. Good afternoon to those who are here. I'm very happy. For us, the food systems are a way of life that has to do with a knowledge that we bring from generation to generation, and that allows us to survive in our communities, in our villages. I think that for us to learn from our children, from our daughters, we learn from the use of the plants. What kind of food do we bring? We adapt to the contexts that we live in, depending on the place, the environment. We have a very strong relationship between us, those who live in our land, our biodiversity. It is not because of our communities that you have until this moment preserved, seeing that so many years have passed, and we continue to have this relationship, this relationship of care, because we know that it is not just ours, it comes for our children, it has inherited us from our ancestors. So for us, that is the result of a life, of a life that is totally adapted, but that also allows this coexistence with biodiversity, a very close relationship. We also have sustainable spaces, that is, we remain in this time. They are very important because they also have a whole knowledge that we cannot leave aside. That is, when we grow up, we already know how to cultivate, we already know what things we are going to eat, but we also know that we have to make a combination of these foods so that our health is in the right way. So I think that is the most important thing here in our towns. We have two systems that I want to name as the main food, which is milpa. The milpa is where the corn is planted, the beans, the pumpkin, and that together they make a regulation so that they can grow, develop, but also, if we feed them immediately, they are adapted. That is, the corn that gives us these nutrients, there is a balance between these and we can eat balanced. In addition, it allows us to have these products that you cannot find in the supermarket, which only we, the towns, consume. So that is the importance and that we can learn, that we can feed ourselves healthily. Our towns originally do not produce with agrochemicals. This has been growing because of the agro-industry and also in this model that we want to develop, there are people who begin to use them for ease. However, I think it is the most natural thing that we can have. And that is why we can also resist more to the impacts of, in this case, for example, the pandemic. It would be my participation. Thank you. Thank you for trying to fit so much into such a short time and kicking off and explaining to us this intrinsic relationship with the plants, the nature and the communities and how you grow and how it has an impact on the wider community around you as well. Christina, can I turn to you for your thoughts on this question? Thank you very much, Thin and Sarah. Thank you for inviting me here and I'm very pleased to be with these indigenous wise ladies on my side. I'm going to provide a more of a global perspective. I mean, indigenous food systems are very diverse. They include smallholder farmers, pastoralists, fisherfolk, hunter-gatherers, but they do share some common features. First of all, they're mixed farming and food systems, so including crop, livestock and wild foods. They're agro-logical and circular, minimizing waste. And of course, if we're talking food systems, that's not just production. It's processing, preparation, cuisine. And it's also the normative principles or rules that determine how land is accessed and used, how food and seeds are distributed and accessed amongst people within communities and across communities. So these food systems, as Sarah said, are very rich in biodiversity and these indigenous crops and land races are highly nutritious and also highly resilient to climate change, to pests and diseases. So they're really critical for local food security but also for global food security and for climate change adaptation. They provide evolving gene banks, so domesticated crops, but also wild crop relatives and indigenous farmers link the two. So they constantly breed and improve their crops using the wild relatives to enhance the resilience of their on-farm crops. And so these farming systems are very adaptive and they're very innovative. And they're also very much landscape-based. They're not just centered on the field, the crop or the livestock, but the whole landscape. And wild foods are a very key part of the diet for nutrition and for health. They have obviously medicinal purposes. So these food systems, as Sarah said, she said that they're a way of life. They're also a health system and they're a belief system and a social system. So spiritual beliefs are often really strong part of these food systems. Whether they're worshiping sacred mountains, forests, rivers, lakes, seeds. And these spiritual beliefs are really key in underpinning the whole food system. And they're also, these food systems are very low carbon. So they're very important for mitigation of climate change and for storing carbon in forests, in natural pastures, in agroforestry. They're also highly resilient to shocks because they're so biodiverse but also because they're local and self-sufficient. So they're not really dependent on markets so much for external inputs and for sale of products. And they're also highly effective in addressing food and nutrition security. So globally, hunger and food insecurity is rising but indigenous food systems in many cases are already achieving zero hunger which I think is really important for us to learn from these systems for that reason. So I think what we can learn from indigenous food systems is that they is how to produce food more sustainably without destroying agro ecosystems and biodiversity. I mean, most agro-ecological practices originate from indigenous and traditional food systems. They weren't invented by science and so there's a huge wealth of practices and technologies, natural pest control, soil fertility management, circular farming and there's also this sort of mindset that the production isn't just for today. The agro ecosystem is to be sustained for the future that there's a seven generation thinking which you find in indigenous communities from pastoralists in Africa to farmers in China. And secondly, I think what we can learn is how to produce food equitably and ensure food security and resilience. I mean, COVID has had a big impact on global value chains but many indigenous food systems were able to ensure food and nutrition security because they prioritized the food needs of their communities rather than commercial interests and because they are based on ancestral principles of solidarity and sharing. Anyway, I'll stop there. Thank you. No, that was fascinating. But before, yes, I was just going to ask you to bring so that I could see your face mouthfully. You know, some, I think some of the things that you said that was fascinating about how diverse those systems are, how innovative and we'll come onto that later because the perception is that they're the exact opposite. So I think it's really interesting that you touch on them. But before I go to Diana, just a very quick follow up.  You talked about land races. What are land races? Land races are just crops that have co-evolved in a particular landscape in a particular local environment. So they haven't been developed in, you know, a scientific research lab. They've evolved in the local environment for a period of time for a long period of time. So they've become really well adapted to that environment. Great. Thank you. Diana, your turn. Yes. Thank you very much. As I was listening in, I was also taking my own notes because the subject is really amazing. But anyway, hello from the Philippines. I'm honored to be here among Indigenous peoples and support networks who also are amazed at how wonderful Indigenous food systems are. And so to add to the points that have already been raised, I think what I can add is that these Indigenous food systems do indeed cover a wide range of processes such as identification of what is edible and what is not and also of harvest protocols, processing techniques, how to cook certain kinds of species. And of course, their intimate relationship with their land entails specific knowledge about the terrain and the resources they're in. And these food systems are passed on by watching and by doing. So it's such a rich heritage, which you can consider like a world in itself with specific skills passed on through generations. And it was also mentioned, I'd like to reiterate how the vibrancy of these Indigenous peoples' food systems were highlighted during the pandemic. We saw that this deep relationship that they have with nature is a positive one and a nurturing one. So these wild foods and local foods thrive in the territories that they live in. And food sovereignty is possible precisely because of this respectful relationship that they do have with nature. So the protection of their forests, their waters and their land makes them secure and affluent in terms of food and subsistence. So they can come home to the forest to get food because their forests are healthy and they live in territories teeming with life. The world should pay attention to Indigenous food systems because we can learn so much from Indigenous peoples on how to sustainably use resources. But these systems though are under threat. The changing times and the threats to land and climate and also in practices themselves like out migration for work or education, threaten the strength of these systems and people have less time now to actually put in the work to dig and look for these root crops or these yams or to set up the traps that are a part of the rich Indigenous tradition. So this is also something to think about how we can continue to strengthen these food systems. And yeah, lastly, I think the world should pay attention because Indigenous food and are really of the good kind. They're organic, they're eco-friendly. They're also a delight to consume to eat and drink. So if only for that, you know, we see its value and it's really worth our while. Thank you. Thank you very much, Diana. And I just, you know, I just want to take a few more minutes before I move on to the next question to sort of build on this conversation around what they are and why they're important to talk specifically about, you know, examples, specific examples of systems that are working and perhaps how communities are trying to safeguard these practices and crops or, you know, how perhaps organizations are helping these communities to help safeguard them. I'm going to go back to Sarah actually because we started with Sarah. Sarah, just you were explaining to us some of the systems that you have, you know, you talk about the Milpa and others and how, you know, during the pandemic they have stood up well. Can you just give some brief examples of the resilience of the systems? And then I'm going to give fair warning. Christina, I'd probably like to come to you and if you can give some examples from other parts of the world and to, again, to Diana back to, you know, so, but you can add in straight after Sarah has spoken. Sarah. Gracias, Din. Para nosotros es muy importante porque además de seguir haciendo la Milpa, el solar, un otro de los sistemas agro, este, alimentarios es el solar. La ventaja de vivir en las comunidades rurales es que tenemos espacios, ¿no? Espacios dentro donde está la casa, pero además tenemos animales, gallinas, pavos, tenemos árboles frutales que permiten, ¿no? Que haya más alimentos nutrientes. Por ejemplo, aquí en mi comunidad es una comunidad que se llama Santa Caten, Yucatán, donde actualmente vivo.  Como decía Cristina, las plagas, sabemos, hay que hacer preparados. Ahorita nosotros estamos combinando la Milpa con prácticas agroecológicas. Estamos haciendo, este, la Milpa también, pero también estamos creando animales, pero también estamos haciendo composta, ¿no? Porque sabemos que los suelos ya no son los suelos de antes, han pasado por un proceso. Y también queremos decirle a la gente, porque a los niños en nuestra comunidad, a, a las más gente, es un valor que creo que lo vamos a platicar en la siguiente pregunta, pero es un valor que tenemos, el tener esto, ahorita en la pandemia nosotros íbamos todos los días a la Milpa, a la Parcela y ahí estábamos solos. No teníamos que tener relación con la gente. Teníamos, aquí nos decían, hay que quedarse en casa y nosotrosíamos, bueno, vamos a quedarnos en la Parcela, como le llamamos aquí, ¿no? Y estamos sembrando y estamos observando aves y los niños andan corriendo libres y nos sentimos más contentos. Entonces, esos espacios que son tan importantes tanto dentro del solar que es el espacio en esta la casa, también en, en el, el espacio de monte que se llama que es el espacio de la selva, donde se hace la Milpa, este, es un, toman muchísima importancia y nosotros aprendemos cómo valorarlo más, a diferencia de cuando vemos a gente con nuestros propios amigos que viven en la ciudad y que sí se le estaban pasando mal porque dependen del mercado, dependen del supermercado y los niños están solo en sus casas, ¿no? Entonces, ahí, eso creo que es lo más valioso que podemos retomar y aprender. Great, thank you. Before Christina speak, I just heard, I've just been given a request from the interpreters to, so that, that all the speakers, including myself, should speak, slow down our speaking a little bit so that they can catch up on the interpretation so that people who are during the, you know, who can't follow in the language that we speak, you know, they'll be able to really get the full depth of the discussion so if we can all slow down starting with me, Christina. Thank you. So some examples of Indigenous food systems and their resilience, the one I think is well known and I think is a wonderful example is the Potato Park in Peru. It's a big landscape about 9,000 hectares and five or six Quechua communities have come together to, to govern this territory together and they sustain, they conserve over a thousand different varieties of potato and they conserve, you know, wildlife and sacred sites across this landscape and they do all of this based on their ancestral principles which are solidarity, reciprocity and equilibrium and that applies to their relationship with nature and their relationship with one another in society. So during COVID, they, they, this food system ensured their own food security, about 5,000 people, but they are also, they were able to donate a ton of potatoes to people in need in Cusco City and they also donated thousands of seeds to neighbouring communities, you know, this is based on their principle of solidarity, which means they, they need to help people in need and there wasn't a single death from COVID in this, the Potato Park despite the fact that they are quite close to a big city to Cusco, which had a lot of COVID deaths. So another example is the Michigenda in coastal Kenya and they conserve highly resilient crops, indigenous varieties and land races, which are require very few external inputs, you know, like cowpeas and they conserve sacred kaya forests which are vital for their food and nutrition. They provide wild fruits, indigenous vegetables, medicinal plants and these kaya forests, they also provide evolving gene pools that they actively use to domesticate trees and other plants on farm to use for their food security and the forests also conserve resilient wild relatives of crops like cowpeas, which is really important not just for the local food security but for national and global food security and once again through this food system, they didn't have a single death from COVID, despite being near Mombasa, a major city. These communities believe that, you know, both in Peru and in Kenya, they believe that the reason they weren't affected very much by COVID is because their food system is very nutritious and medicinal. So that had boosted their immune system and just to finish, just to mention a couple of examples in Kenya, another example, the Taraka tribe, the food, they believe that the food they eat gives them their identity. It's really important to them to eat their indigenous food because it's part of who they are and they also see seed as being sacred. So they have a lot of ceremonies around seeds and that has been important during COVID because it has ensured solidarity within the community, which has been crucial to provide support, you know, for people in need. So the people helped each other. Another example in Africa is in Chad, the pastoralist food system there, highly resilient and biodiverse and it actually contributes about 40% of the national GDP of Chad. So IID is supporting indigenous food systems in a couple of ways. First of all, we're supporting indigenous peoples to come together to collectively manage their territories based on their ancestral principles. These territories we call biocultural heritage territories. So the Potato Park in Peru is one example and they're also what we're doing is helping indigenous peoples in other countries who want to establish similar territories to do that. So not only in Peru, but in Kenya, in India and China. And this is really an attempt to secure the land rights for these people to strengthen their food sovereignty and to protect their interlinked biodiversity and cultural heritage. The other initiative that IID is doing is through the forest and farm facility, which we partner with FAO and Agricorps and IUCN and this supports hundreds of forest and farm producer organizations across 12 countries in Africa, Asia and Latin America. And many of the organizations are indigenous organizations. So the forest and farm facility provides support for strengthening the governance and representation of indigenous producer organizations. And an example of this is in Vietnam where it's supporting a cooperative that's trying to improve income. It lives, these communities live near the forest and they want to strengthen their indigenous foods. So we're supporting, well, the facility is supporting them to produce sticky rice and market it better through packaging, to ratan and bamboo for crafts, traditional weaving, traditional singing group. So anyway, just wanted to share with you a little bit what we're doing to support these wonderful food systems. Thanks. Thank you. Fascinating examples, like I've not heard of them and that they just sound amazing. Diana. Yes, thank you. I was also taking notes because I want to look up the examples that Christina mentioned. I guess from us in Asia, because I belong to the non timber forest products exchange program, which is based in South and Southeast Asia. And what I can share is this network that we have, which is focused on Asian honeybees and supporting honey hunters, which harvest wild honey from the forest. So the Asian honey bee is not as popular as its European counterpart, apismalifera, but we believe that by creating spaces and platforms, a learning network for different honey hunters and honey groups in South and Southeast Asia, they can really discuss and agree on sustainability principles embedded in their harvest protocols. And it's so interesting to see that they are in agreement. For example, uncertain standards such as harvesting only the mature colonies and not destroying the entire hive, because again, they have such great foresight and the sustainability principles and wisdom of indigenous food systems are really seen and heard when you are in a room with them. And even though they're from different cultures in different regions, they agree that these are the standards and it can't go lower than that. So I think that's a good example of the wisdom of the indigenous food ways and why we should continue to support and strengthen communities and very happy to hear that there is support for wild foods and indigenous food systems from IED, for example, Christina's group and other networks, of course. Now, Diana, now that I have you here, we're going to move on to the next question and I want you to be the person to answer it because we were discussing this issue when we were talking about this panel discussion and the next question is, I think this is something that all of you have come across. What are some of the myths and misunderstandings around indigenous food systems? Because I want you to burst some of them and there are quite a lot of them. Diana, I'm going to ask you to start. Yes, okay. Thanks, Thin. I do remember that we did touch upon that a bit and one of the greatest myths or at least from my experience would be that on within agriculture or shifting cultivation, also known as rotational farming. So this narrative that it is bad and destructive to the environment was very prevalent, especially when I was growing up, you would read it in the media in the news, even in textbooks at schools. It was always that example of bad environmental practices and the blame is shifted to those in the uplands. But then growing up later on, you learn from indigenous peoples that it really isn't that destructive as it is pointed out to be. And so I think we can all be in agreement that it's one of the most misunderstood systems of land use. Many countries actually have bands in place on these kinds of agriculture, but it's good also to note that the perceptions are slowly changing, but then the legal aspects still has to kind of catch up, but at least appreciation is starting to grow. Also things to research and case studies that have debunked the myth. So now we know that slash and burn isn't there is a good kind of slash and burn system. And that traditional shifting cultivation that allows for follow periods where the lands and the soil can rest actually help maintain and enrich biodiversity. So yeah, I think that would be one of the myths that we'd like to bust and we can share also links and resources if you're interested to read up more on that topic. Thank you. Great. Yeah. Thank you, Diane. And I totally agree with you because, you know, I come from Burma and Myanmar and we have a lot of indigenous groups, particularly in the hill regions and I grew up reading in the school textbooks and being taught that shifting cultivation is really bad and that we need to teach the indigenous communities on how to do farming that doesn't harm the environment. So it is fascinating to hear from you. Christina, Sarah, who wants to go next to talk about myths and misunderstandings. Anybody wants to volunteer? Sarah, please. Gracias. Sí, justo por lo que compartía Diana. Aquí también nosotros tenemos un sistema de limpieza de la milpa que es el rosa tumba y quema. O sea, cuando tú limpias el espacio se quema. Entonces desde siempre nosotros pensábamos que dijo les tenemos que hacer menos milpa no para no quemar tanto entonces y vinieron de pronto y nos dijeron no tienen que hacer rosa tumba y pica no quema, no, este, pero no, pero todo lo que implica que la quema, además de que deja el espacio limpio, este, aporta nutrientes a la a los cultivos y en cambio el pican no puede sembrar los mismos cultivos.  Muchas gracias. Cristina, I see you nodding a lot. Yes, I was going to say some similar things actually. Sorry, I've got my translation on. Yeah, so. Definitely the slash and burn or Sweden agriculture is is a very big misunderstanding still I mean studies have shown for example in Thailand and in China that these sweden farming systems they are sustainable they are biodiversity rich they are important for food security and they contribute minimal carbon emissions far less than modern food systems. Another myth I'll slow down a bit now is that indigenous food systems are not very productive and FAO study in about 2009 showed that these food systems are highly productive because the crops are nutrient dense and the livestock it's nutrient dense food and when you consider the whole agro ecosystem not just the farm yields there's you know just as much productivity of food as a modern food system but also you're supporting the environment for future production and this study showed that supporting indigenous food systems and self-determination actually benefits nutrition and health and shifts to modern diets has led to growing health problems for indigenous peoples. Another I think a big myth is that sort of modernization intensification is the only way to feed the world. I mean clearly this is not working food insecurity is rising and so we know that in fact we already grow enough food to feed everybody on the planet but the issue really is that we need to address access to food we need more secure access to land and resources for poor and vulnerable groups. And then finally this the myth around you know indigenous knowledge being old and being unscientific and backwards which is absolutely you know very very difficult and unhelpful in terms of food security in fact in Africa the loss of traditional knowledge has led to land degradation and food insecurity and you know indigenous knowledge isn't old it's continually evolving it's developing new knowledge to address new challenges it's just a different type of knowledge system it's already held and transmitted but it's still based on empirical observation on experimentation you know over centuries. Anyway thank you. No that's that that's a great point particularly the last one about how you know it is old and it's not unscientific and I think that's one of the things that we always hear a lot about when you know we talk about I think food systems you know food systems and there's a lot of talk about innovation and technology and looking at it very much from I guess how a lot of us understand science to be and when it is orally you know passed on and it's not written down we have this perception somehow of it not being not being scientific just Christina again. You know just just if you could emphasize this point you know one of the things you said when originally you know in your first answer about what indigenous food systems were and you touch upon it just now a little bit but you talk about it as being innovative and you you said briefly just now as well that you know it is not just old it is you know constantly evolving can you just yeah briefly talk about you know the innovations around it and that it is it is not just static. Yeah I mean there's so much innovation going on there's participatory plant breeding developing new plant varieties by crossing different varieties modern and traditional or just you know different land races and innovation in terms of cropping systems to address climate change a lot of communities are diversifying and re re introducing the agroecological practices after you know for example in Kenya having moved towards more modern practices they're now going back and they're and they're mixing you know they have some modern varieties some traditional varieties so this innovation is going on all the time and it uses both traditional knowledge and science and links the two but it's completely hidden nobody sees it you know nobody you know it's assumed that there's no innovation going on. Yeah. Thank you. We can move on to the third and last round of questions before Q&A but does anybody else want to add into any of the myths and misunderstanding you know if there's anything else that you remember that you'd like to add before we move on to anything else or. No okay then we'll move on to the last round of questions and this concerns obviously the food system summit which was held last week we all know there's been some controversies around it but one of the new coalitions that was announced at the event was indigenous people's food systems and I like to hear from all of you your reflections and your thoughts you know on the summit and this coalition and whether you think that they'll have any impact on the work that you're doing on the ground and the efforts to preserve indigenous food systems. Sarah if you don't mind I would actually like to come come to you first as an indigenous you know person and somebody who's working on these issues what what are your thoughts. Gracias Dean. Para mí me parece muy interesante primero que se haya realizado la cumbre porque pues ya es un paso no este y que además se puede reconocer en los sistemas alimentarios indígenas a este nivel global. Porque necesariamente tenemos que hacer en nuestro gobierno generalmente nosotros tenemos que hacer incidencia para que no reconozca para que los programas que están llevando a cabo en temas de de alimentación pues siempre estamos como en ese debate no en el que si se siembra transgénicos o si se siembran este los se conservan las semillas nativas y estamos o sea que los gobiernos los ratifiquen y estén dispuestos creo que eso también genera un impacto y nosotros tenemos elementos para poder seguir este luchando para que esto sea reconocido creemos que bueno como estas estos espacios internacionales también nos dan un un panorama no estamos viendo como todos los panoramas este que se están moviendo a nivel mundial con tema de la salud la la soberanía alimentaria hay muchas organizaciones con las que nosotros nos identificamos colaboramos incluso este hemos como organización este pues ratificado contribuido con con los diferentes posicionamientos que están este surgiendo sin embargo creemos que son pasos aunque pequeños este que pueden generar algún impacto en nuestras localidades sin duda hay mucha discusión hay mucha discusión por lo que se está planteando allá y creo que se vamos a seguir lo analizando vamos a seguir pensando también como nosotros como organizaciones muy locales indígenas que vimos en el pueblo podemos contribuir en esos espacios así como lo contribuimos en los espacios como son de la cop este otras otras este de la biodiversidad no este o otras espacios en los que están bien podemos dar nuestra voz y podemos poner lo que nosotros pensamos sentimos que son son entendemos que que hay mucha mucha discusión y que son pequeñas cosas pero que también creemos que pueden generar un impacto en nosotros no es como un primer panorama este hay mucho que decir pero creo que en cuanto a la a este esta cumbre es lo lo lo positivo which is that yes Diana Christina who wants to go first any preference or yeah Christina please thanks yeah on the this coalition on indigenous people's food systems I mean that's very welcome development I hope it gets the support you know it needs to do its work and I mean I think that there are a few countries that have signed up to support it but it's you know it's very few it's only four or five countries so you know let's hope it manages to get traction and get support and on paper it looks great and I think that I'm actually not sure if the if the summit will address the major threats that are facing indigenous peoples food systems and you know there are still you know major policies promoting industrial agriculture and industrial foods and you know failure to protect indigenous peoples rights to land and natural resources and these are really threatening indigenous food systems so policies for economic development for mining and also you know protected areas and forest policies there needs to be a major reform of these to address the threats that are undermining indigenous food systems and I don't think the summit has called for such major reform of Lantania agriculture economic and forest policies to stop these threats and my concern really is is also the the the governance arrangements that will follow the summit I mean the summit process itself the governance for the summit was very strongly centered around science it emphasize scientific agendas scalable solutions which are you know closely linked to corporate agendas and to finance and the outcomes are actually quite weak in terms of reference to human rights and the the FAO committee on world food security and the special rapporteur on human rights were both sidelined by the summit process and so I think going forward it's really critical and that civil society movements smallholder farmers peasant indigenous organizations can continue to have a voice in global food governance through the committee committee on world food security and can have you know even stronger influence in national policy processes following the summit my worry is that you know the summit has not created the space for them to have the increased influence that they really need Thanks. Thank you. Thanks for thanks very much for very insightful reflections Diana Yes, just to add in Sarah said to focus on the positive so I'll start with the positive aspect so I think the UN food system summit really up the hype or and the energy I mean around food and the need to really transform the system so we heard a lot of messages from diverse voices and various calls to action reiterating this need to think in a systematic way and its systems thinking and to recognize interdependence however amidst that encouragement there was also this strange feeling of kind of like expecting more from the system and I guess that just means that there's still a lot of work to be done ahead like what was mentioned earlier the clarification of the rules and this governance and I like what was mentioned earlier that we still really need to think and analyze reflect on what has been said also what has not been said and how do we really get the next moves right so I keep hearing during the summit the the the terms how did they say the game changing solution so but it's still kind of vague so I think there still needs to be some follow-up conversations around that and to add to what was also mentioned by Christina at at the glance I looked at the the coalition the paper that they also published online and on paper it does read great it also calls for understanding greater understanding respect recognition inclusion you know protection and recognition of indigenous peoples rights and their food systems which are also similar aspiration as ours but I just feel there needs to be more care and caution especially how these will be operationalized and on whose terms so the feedbacking with indigenous peoples who aren't able to attend online that that needs to happen and to you know discuss the solutions that were proposed especially at the local or the national level and I also have on my notes which is interesting the messaging about science it was really up and center I would say and to this end I think we need to continue to to share such as in platforms like this to speak truth to the local initiatives that are happening on the ground because these are also coming from positions of strength I mean it's not just science who who takes the lead you know it's also there's this other science that you said it may be oral but it's still a really strong kind of knowledge and very rich yeah so we should maybe monitor that and qualify the kinds of sciences that were suggested so how is it sourced are there also sufficient safeguards in place already to protect the communities collective intellectual property rights especially with all these talks about scaling up and then you know these are indigenous seeds that are collectively owned by the community so there needs to be a lot of preparation and discussions to really strengthen you know communities to to be able to to face that as it's coming and there's this energy around that issue on scaling up yeah and I guess to end I think what we really would want is to have this feeling of confidence that the processes and all that energy generated from the summit won't be for not I mean we hope that it won't be co-opted that the playing field will be leveled and there's recognition of the different power dynamics within the players in this system you know and producers communities indigenous peoples should also be at the same level as the the scientists and the other big food players who were also given space in that inclusive system that they set up because the setup was also flagged as innovative and that anyone or everywhere can just pitch in and contribute so these are just initial thoughts kind of all over the place at the moment but yeah we'll be following and thinking about it continuing to reflect as it unfolds. Thank you. Great. Thank you. Thank you so much Diana. I mean there's so much more that I want to hear from from you but obviously that's not just made a lot of other people who are listening in also have lots of questions and want to hear from you so we're going to wrap up the discussion and then move on to the next part of the event which is the Q&A again. I just like to tell everyone if you have questions please use the Q&A box and if possible please identify yourself and the organization that you belong to. We already have quite a lot of questions that are coming through what I'm going to try and sort of take like about three in one go and then I'm going to ask the speakers to you know if they want to respond to all of them please do but then keep the answers brief or if they want to focus on specific question that they want to respond to you're also very welcome so let me just go through the first three questions first is how can an indigenous farmer gain his or her desirable product and protect the products without the use of fertilizer and pesticides? I think Sarah you're probably in a great position to answer this and probably Christina may also have some ideas around it. The second question is are these systems scalable duplicable and transferable? If so why is the UN, the NGOs and foundations supporting systems such as those being you know promoted by the Gates foundations and others are using standard Western practices?  So three questions one is about indigenous farmers you know protecting their crops you know trying to get a good product without the use of chemical inputs. The second is you know if this other system scalable you know duplicable and transferable and if so but you know why are a lot of the systems that are being promoted Western centric rather than indigenous? And the third is you know it works for indigenous people fine but how can this be translated into something for a corporate global agribusiness? I'm just wondering who I could pick to start with Sarah would you like to go first just because I thought the first question asking about how to you know to do it without chemical inputs I thought you know you'd be in a great position to answer that. Gracias claro que sí. Es un complejo porque estamos acostumbrados o tenemos el contexto de que la producción tiene que ser masiva y que tiene que tener una calidad que nos han enseñado a consumir que es nosotros en el supermercado compramos papás de la misma tamaño y bonitas no es de entonces la producción sin el uso de aeroquímicos realmente no es así como la vemos en el mercado o sea es es más local este nosotros aplicamos por ejemplo si la planta está hay muchos conocimientos de teras no si la planta está fuerte está sana tiene los nutrientes es menos atacada por las plagas también se hacen muchas preparados este orgánicos que no es que sustituyan sino que hay como una que además no mata todo lo que pasa con los aeroquímicos es que si tú le aplicas un aeroquímico mata los insectos benéficos y también los que hacen daño entonces hay un desequilibrio y por lo tanto hay un desequilibrio general es cuando tú siembras y además hay plantas de olor hay plantas que repelen insectos hay una gran diversidad no todo está en en un monocultivo o sea puedes encontrar diversidad de plantas en un mismo espacio eso hace que sea que no tenga pues este tanto ataque no es todo un una coexistencia creo que este eso los agricultores la gente campesina lo tiene y además estamos conscientes de que no queremos cosecharlo todo porque a la fauna también se lleva gran parte de eso no se incluso hay personas que siembran alrededor solo para la fauna porque sabemos que estamos en un espacio en el que coexistimos varias entonces quisiera hablar igual un poco de la parte que dices como puede escalar creo que aquí es donde no estamos entendiendo mucho el concepto porque este no es que yo produzca para alimentar a todo el pueblo es que todo el pueblo produzca un poco y combinemos la la la producción este o que los que produzcan este también puedan colocar esos productos porque además se vuelve una cuestión de élite la producción orgánica este y yo lo puedo si yo produzco de manera orgánica lo puedo vender muy caro pero solo a las personas que tienen el recurso podrían acceder a la a la comida sana y yo creo que aquí no se trata de eso entonces tendemos que también pensar en la producción no a gran escala sino que todos seamos un poco conscientes de lo que estamos comiendo de donde estamos viviendo y que eso nos ayude a este tener alimento suficientes muchas gracias I was that was fantastic really interesting grounded in your own experience as well Christina would you like to attempt that to answer the questions next yes so how can an indigenous farmer gain a desirable product and protect the products without fertiliser pesticides well I mean many of the crops that they use indigenous varieties and landraces are very well adapted to the local environment over hundreds of years so they need less fertiliser and they need less pesticide inputs because I'm more productive in those environments so that's one thing and the other thing I mean Sarah mentioned intercropping you know using and you know strong smelling plants to deter pests and also a lot of these communities make their own kind of concoctions you know natural and repellents for for pests and using garlic or chili and they also have you know this tremendous ancestral knowledge that gives them a lot of solutions because if the communities have been in one place over centuries in the same place they have accumulated ways of dealing with the problems that are prevalent in that place so for example in the Andes you know they already have ways of dealing with potato blight in the Quechua communities and you know their ancestors have been dealing it for thousands of years and they don't seek to eliminate the pest but they live with it and they maintain their productivity and they manage it and they have the knowledge to do that so yeah I think those are just some thoughts on that question I wanted to share on the other question is scalable are these systems scalable duplicable and transferable if so why is the UN NGOs Foundation supporting systems such as being promoted by Gates and using standard Western practices I mean I think these are kind of two different questions in a way but these systems indigenous food systems are quite place specific I think the technologies are very much entwined with the local environment what is transferable is the process to support them the community led participatory process and the kind of governance system you know participatory process decolonizing research methods and tools those those are transferable but the technologies themselves are less transferable from one place to another I think it's really important that when we strengthen these systems it's a bottom up process it has to come from the culture from the traditional knowledge you know you can't just sort of do a case study and say this was transferable to another place it doesn't work like that that's a very top-down mentality which I don't think is suited to this you know scaling up these kind of farming systems and why is the UN and NGOs and foundations not supporting them I think there are other reasons for that I mean I think as we've discussed that these systems are misunderstood massively misunderstood as being unproductive and not effective in feeding people and so hopefully we've helped dispel some of those in this thanks. Thanks you Christina Diana and before Diana come in I think it's also fascinating I think both of you what you've said it's also just sort of bringing us back to to almost like the basic fundamentals of at least unlearning some of the things that we have accepted as wisdom right as like you always need pesticides and fertilizers to actually have productivity well no it can be done you know in a different way or that you know everybody should be growing the same thing or that one particular community should be responsible for growing everything and I think that's partly because we have become so used to the food systems that are consolidated and vertically integrated that we've started thinking you know small and diverse as messy instead of good perhaps Diana. Yes sorry I was on mute but yeah it's really interesting to hear these perspectives while listening to the two panelists I remembered that these pesticides and chemical inputs are actually introduced I mean we weren't really using these before especially indigenous peoples but then because of institutions such as government programs which pushed or kind of introduced these new ways then it became the mainstream in a way and has to link lots of the old practices. So I think there needs to be space for people and communities to just remember how it was before they were using these chemical inputs and like what you said they need to go back and remember and sometimes memory can be a really powerful trigger you know to come back to the other stream not necessarily looking always at what is popular or what's in the mainstream but also to remember the other streams of wisdom like what you mentioned that they learned and was passed on from their elder so to this point I think it's really important for support groups also to to give that support and provide spaces where these can be discussed so that in a way there is a rejuvenation of these traditional wisdom and these systems and to the other question the one scalability and yeah so I think that's something that the community has to decide so of course it's their system embedded within their own culture and whether or not they want to engage with the markets or whoever to kind of scale that up is always their decision to make so part of their self-determination but what we must remember is of course to to provide the correct information the necessary information that is available if we need to consolidate it and do the analysis and also share that just to provide different perspectives I think that would help a lot in the decision-making process because I like what you mentioned there is a lot of unlearning to do and these rethinking the whole the things that we are used to so information and reeducation really helps a lot and this needs to be further strengthened and supported and yeah and lastly I really like what Christina mentioned about these things being place and culture specific so it's not like you can just you hear about it or read about it and just apply it to your own context but I think the beauty of learning about these different indigenous food systems and hearing best practices and examples is that you get to be inspired and you get to take ideas that might work or you can innovate based on this idea or innovation that you have heard from others and then try to see how you can tailor it to your own context so I also like what Sarah pointed out it's not always about like the massive production actually what we learned from indigenous peoples is that and from smallholder farmers also is that the big kinds of production isn't always the one that is resilient and we saw that especially during the pandemic when indigenous peoples were the ones who were turning down these canned goods that the government was giving because they have their own food supply which is healthier which is a healthier option so I think that's something that we can add to our reflection and just rethink how we how we see things and learn from these various examples that have been shared. Thank you. Great. Thank you so much. We have quite a few more so I'm going to go through another three. This is really important I think when we talk about indigenous food systems this question has to do with land rights. This is how do we secure land rights and connect with indigenous food habits since resource rights is directly connected to indigenous communities. So that's the first question and another one is directed to its Christina. It is on the lack of COVID cases in those indigenous communities would it not be more down to the fact that indigenous communities are better placed to be self-sufficient and close of access to outsiders during the pandemic rather than their diet. And another question is is to asking for an example of how indigenous people are impacted by invasive species of plants. Let's try and go through these because I still have another round so let's try and go through this quickly. Christina would you like to take the direction that the question that is directed towards you and then perhaps touch on the other two as well and then I'll follow up with Sarah and then Diana. Yeah, so the question on the lack of COVID cases in indigenous communities I mean there are obviously other factors there are a number of different factors that may be contributing to it. Being in a rural environment being outdoors a lot and being more self-sufficient and able to close access to outsiders as the question points out I think that all plays a role. But we know that when some people in those communities had COVID cases they basically just had very little in terms of symptoms they weren't very affected it was like having a cold and there were no deaths so that does suggest that their healthy diets their different diets their nutritious and healthy and medicinal plants probably did play a role and that's what the communities think but obviously requires more research because this is just based on a few sort of webinars with communities. Yeah, thanks. Thank you. Do you want to touch on any of the other two questions as well or I can come back to you later if you haven't really thought about them. Yeah, I could just touch on the question of securing land rights. So how do we secure land rights and connect within indigenous food habits? I mean I think the the potato park is a good example of this because basically these communities came together to establish a potato park in order to protect their land rights from mining and so their strategy to protect the land rights from mining was to establish this incredibly rich diversity of potatoes and of other crops and to get get it globally recognized through IECN conferences and the media and it's so well known now that the government wouldn't dare to you know go and start mining there because it'd be such a big media outcry that and so I mean that's the kind of thing we're trying to do is create these incredibly rich centers of agro biodiversity and thriving indigenous food systems which provide these genetic reserves which are not just locally but globally important and you know use that as a way to protect land rights. Thanks. Thank you. Sarah, would you like to take on the issues around the land rights and also whether if you have an example about invasive species and plants? Sarah? Is Sarah still here? Or if she have experiencing connection issues? Si. Problema de dirección por eso titela a cámara para ver si me escuchan mejor. Este... Great, that's fine. Yes, absolutely. Just hearing you is absolutely fine. Please go ahead. Este... Bueno, yo creo que la tenencia de la tierra varía dependiendo de los países y cómo se gestionen los recursos de la tierra. Aquí en México tenemos los los ejidos como territorios este que han sido pues dados a las comunidades a los pueblos indígenas y que tienen diferentes manejos que a veces han sido parcelados o sea cada ejidatario tiene su porción de tierra u otros que lo tienen como este organizarse de la manera que gestionan sus tierras. Creo que aquí hay algo importante que no se está mirando y que yo quisiera como rescatar es el acceso de tierra a las mujeres porque generalmente se tiene y se va pasando de generación en generación a los hombres o a las mujeres que por una otra razón quedan este muere el esposo y son ellas las que asumen pero estas mujeres muchas veces se lo ceden a su hijo o hijo o hijo mayor para que haga la gestión de la tierra. Entonces no hay una garantía de que las mujeres que no sean por sucesión puedan tener acceso a la tierra o o incluso hombres que no tienen esta sucesión de derechos puedan tener acceso a la tierra. Entonces hay una gestión de la tierra de rentabilidad de préstamos que al final de cuentas no garantiza no garantiza que pueda tener una producción este de de alimentos creo que aquí sería muy importante que como como pueblos podamos entender este este acceso a la tierra como una necesidad vital también como una forma de nosotros para nosotros estos territorios como le llamamos en en en elica consortium que es donde también colaboramos son territorios de vida son territorios complejos que tienen gran diversidad pero que también tenemos que fortalecernos la gobernanza de estos territorios y para esto todavía estamos como algunos pasos bastantes a atrás el la el en en la defensa en la gobernanza el entendernos dentro de un entorno que es nuestro y que tiene muchas presiones este a otros niveles por ejemplo aquí en México con la creación de reservas entonces que se reubicano o la minería o los mega proyectos que vienen y que piens y que nos dicen como debería ser entonces nuestro territorio empieza a sufrir modificaciones a un impacto grande pero también la gente si no tienen la suficiente información puede este dejar la producción irse a las empresas irse al turismo como lo que está pasando en la península de yucatán en México con un proyecto de de tren de tren maya creo que estas estas nos hacen que haya una presión sobre el territorio y también una presión sobre la tenencia de la tierra porque muchos ejidatarios en lugar de cederle a sus hijos sus esposas están vendiendo su derecho de tierra y entonces se vuelve un espacio más complejo creo que aquí el fortalecer la gobernanza es un punto clave thank you just one point do you also have an example of how perhaps some of your food systems may have been you know affected by invasive species do you have any examples? si las especies invasoras sobre todo de algún helecho este en la zona de aquí un helecho que llegó y empezó a a expandirse y eso hace que sea muy difícil quitar de la de la de la milpa entonces se genera de grado el suelo y se genera una producción menos este en espacios no también hay especies invasoras de animales como como los conejos que no había aquí anteriormente y que llegaron y que entonces son una amenaza a la producción este sí totalmente Diana are you still here do you want to add anything at all before we move on to the next round which is going to be the last round of Q&A yes yes maybe just quickly on the part about invasive species so I think one example in the Philippines would be how before there is this national greening program that we call and some of the seedlings that were pushed were actually species that were not indigenous species like Jamalina or Mahogany and there has been a call from local communities indigenous peoples that it should not be those species that should be planted for the greening of forests but to focus more on indigenous species so work on that lobbying for that has worked greatly and so there's now more focus on planting the right kind of tree so it's not just planting and not thinking about what species it is but just really matching what needs to be there and yeah I really like what Sarah mentioned about work on land rights and tenure and just looking at the gender aspect it's also something that we're trying to look at because there are communities where in the cultural practice or the norm is that land is traditionally owned by men but we're starting to have discussions with indigenous peoples communities on this subject and it's really been interesting but it also takes some time and also again a lot of reflection and unlearning because the norm it it's the norm culturally and so you have to have this space a safe space to be able to discuss these things and finally I agree with what has been said that land rights and your security is really very important I would say it's central and crucial one of my colleagues even said it's a prerequisite to everything because once you have your land secured your territories of life protected and really there's no way to go but up and really continuing to strengthen that system which is currently being plagued and threatened by so many things from the outside world so yeah just to say that work on this it's quite hard and the processes are long in some countries like in the Philippines for example there are legal instruments that can be tapped but it's still quite a lengthy process from the type playing to the compilation of the documents needed but it's exist in some countries the legal context is different but I think we can draw energy and inspiration from each other and see how the push for land rights and this advocacy is ongoing and we draw support from each other because it's really really important thank you so much we're going to wrap up soon but I want to take another round and let's try and answer briefly if we can because I do think these are interesting questions one has to do with traditional vegetable seed varieties that are important for indigenous communities the question is are there any developed seed banks for traditional vegetables and if so which country may have the best another one is Sarah this is directly towards you what is fertility maintained in a Milpa system so if you can talk a little bit about whether are there any locally produced fertilizers or are there rotation practices that may help maintain fertility and productivity there's a question around indigenous systems in the Middle East but I'm not sure if our speakers have a lot of experience with the Middle East but if anybody wants to add please do and last question is what could be the role of better recognition whether it is legal or not of indigenous knowledge to make sure that there is better food sovereignty Christina would you like to just briefly touch on some of the questions yeah I'm not really well qualified to answer those questions but if I may just add a quick addition to the last really interesting conversation about governance and gender and land tenure I mean one thing you know it's true that you know traditional systems of customary laws aren't always you know the most equitable and what we're doing with association andes in Peru who is really the brains that set up the potato park the governance model that they take is to focus on indigenous principles like solidarity balance and reciprocity and go back to those basic principles and then rethink any customary laws that don't promote either social equity or environmental sustainability so really focus on those underlying principles that do promote ecological sustainability and social equity and the governance system is very much a collective you know all the leaders from all the villages governing together and I think you know that's really what can be scaled not so much the technologies but these sorts of governance systems and how they can protect rights and andes in Peru association andes through INMIP is doing this INMIP is the international network of indigenous peoples they hold annual horizontal learning exchanges one of the comments said what about horizontal learning indigenous farmer to farmer learning for scaling and that is a fantastic idea and it's been working really well through this network, thanks Thank you Sara do you want to take on the questions around the Milpa and if you want to answer any of the other questions as well please go ahead I would like the Milpa because it's a very interesting system and it's also a super valuable knowledge and when the corn is always the frijol and the pumpkin make a perfect function because the frijol fix the nitrogen that this gets the corn and the pumpkin protects the coverage of the earth that prevents a great amount of other plants but also that allows the shade and regulates the humidity of the soil so when they grow together it's perfect also at the moment it can be produced 2 or 3 times in the same place it depends if it's a Milpa that is in a place where the rose the pumpkin and the burning allows up to 3 cycles of production and then you have to let it rest you have to spend at least 5 or 6 years in that soil so that you can plant again and have the same production it doesn't mean that if you plant it you won't produce but you can produce a smaller amount but also what we are doing here is that at that Milpa space once the cycle of the harvest ends we plant cover plants some types of beans that fix the nutrients that make them have a bigger organic layer and that allows to fertilize the soil and that in a short time we wouldn't have to wait a long time another option to keep the fertility of the earth is to add compost to green beans or organic fertilizers that are created for example the humus of the lombar that we also use a lot to strengthen the soil so it's like a big variety these are more agroecological techniques that allow us to keep doing this cultivation rotation but that can be done in a single place but that's how we do it Diana would you like to add anything before I wrap up yeah not very much because I'm not very well versed on the questions that were raised but I do remember in a webinar that we held recently discussing wild foods and traditional food systems one of the participants asked if it was okay for the indigenous youth to share or if they can give the specific variety to them so they can also plant it in their own field and what was interesting for me was that indigenous youth said that they still have to think about it because right now it's just for their own youth and consumption and I think it's a very good story because it reminds us to respect I mean if the answer is that they are not ready to have it scaled up yet or they're not ready to share it yet then we must respect that but if they are ready to partner and go into research and how to try and develop these seeds that they have which are very resilient then we must ensure that there are these guiding principles and safeguards that would protect them from their harmful to biopiracy and such so I think the indigenous food systems are really rich but safeguards also need to be there so that it's not threatened or co-opted for other people's interests so that's Thank you unfortunately we have gone over time already by one minute so we're going to have to end this event but if you would you know a humor me for just two more minutes I just want to ask one last question to our speakers and I would like our speakers to take no more than 30 seconds if that's possible to answer this so very brief if you have one message one that you would like the audience to take away from this webinar what would it be? I'm going to start alphabetical order Diana your message yeah I'll try to keep it short so today we learned that indigenous from indigenous peoples that land is life and their life is in their land so nature and forests are also home so if nature is home you won't destroy it but you will honor and secure it and to that end I'd like to emphasize the importance of tenure security in bringing back the integrity of forests which are under threat and in supporting indigenous peoples actions to sustain their territory of life thank you thank you Christina I suppose one thing to take home is really how indigenous food systems are so holistic and interconnected it's not just food it's about culture it's about landscape it's about ancestral values and knowledge and all of these are interdependent so you need to protect the whole biocultural system really to sustain the food system thanks thank you Sarah I would like to share I think we have to share information and action so creating the space where we live feeling part of a world that is very threatened we have to make actions that we can do from our own health something better to happen in this world thank you great, thank you I don't think I would have been able to summarize it any better than the speakers have done unfortunately we lost one speaker due to unforeseen circumstances at the last minute but I think this has been such a rich and fascinating discussion I would really like to thank our speakers for their insights and can we all give them a virtual round of applause please thank you so much for taking time of your busy schedules to join us thank you to the audience for your participation and your questions I apologize if I'm unable to take all of them and now thanks also to our hosts the Ford Foundation the Land Portal Foundation the Thomson-Royters Foundation it's been such an honour for me to moderate this event and I think if some of the last messages from me taking away from this is that these food systems are innovative they're resilient they are scientific and perhaps we need to rethink when we talk about what kind of lessons we learn is not in replicating the word everything what everybody does but just to take the lessons from like Christina said the governance and the practices and the understanding like Sarah said of the way Indigenous communities interact with the nature and the people around them and that is probably some of the best lessons we can use in trying to transform our food systems to become fairer equitable and more sustainable with that I wish you all the best for the rest of the week and the weekend goodbye thank you thank you everyone, thank you bye bye


Hello and welcome to my session. I appreciate that you stayed long enough to attend here. I'm Jan. I'm with SAP based in Valdorf, working in the Cloud Foundry dojo labs, mainly on Bosch and the Bosch OpenSec CPI. What I'm going to talk about is kind of a side project. So take that as disclaimer. It's very experimental. And I had only limited amount of time working on exactly that. And that thing is a Kubernetes CPI for Bosch, so that you can deploy Bosch releases onto Kubernetes. So what I kind of want to try to bring over is that running Cloud Foundry on Kubernetes is an interesting problem, and that a Bosch CPI for Kubernetes is a possible solution to that problem. And furthermore, lots of changes that might be required in Bosch to make that really usable and closer to productive use aren't actually beneficial for virtual machines as well. So that's not, even if that experiment turns out to be a bad idea, there's some things to gain there. And that's what I'm going to do today, showing where I come from, so why did I started with that, what I did, so how did I do it, and what's the state of that thing, or what do I think you can do with it, or where we can go with that. So where I come from, Cloud Foundry is running apps in containers since its inception, since the very beginning. However, Bosch is running Cloud Foundry on virtual machines.  So shouldn't that be possible? Like, if containers are cool, why not use them for running Cloud Foundry itself? And then there's a container schedule that is getting more and more popular, which is Kubernetes. Why not use that to run Cloud Foundry on top? Apparently, there are services that are actually deploying or deployable to Kubernetes quite well, where the provider of these persistent services are more working on the container runtimes and running them in containers. So if you anyway have to have a Kubernetes cluster to run these services alongside your Cloud Foundry, which without persistent services is not really a complete product, then why not run Cloud Foundry there as well, which would remove your dependency on whatever IIS that you're running on that? I think I'm not the first one actually being interested in running it on Kubernetes. So HPE, now, Suzer has this project called Fisile that is generating container images out of Bosch releases. What I think why it's not a solution is like, one is you're kind of binding you on Kubernetes, which you don't really know if it's turning out to be really the container scheduler to go to. And when Bosch gets features that releases use, like links, that's something where you always have to keep up with and implement that for this solution. So that basically boils down to, where is Bosch in that game? Because I think like Bosch is the best tool for the thing it does that I've seen until now. So what about writing a Kubernetes CPI that was like my thought process? So let's have a look. What's in a Bosch CPI? There's like basically three entities you cope with, that's stem cells, like base OS images, VMs and disks, and there are a couple of methods that a CPI has to implement that work on these entities, like creating stem cells and deleting them, same for VMs, for disks, it's also attaching and detaching them from and to VMs. There's a couple of more methods, but they are rather minor, like list disks and others. So I kept them out for gravity. This is the main thing you have to do if you implement a Bosch CPI. So if we look now at a rather naive mapping of concepts from the Bosch world into the Kubernetes world, then you have VMs, as I just said, on the Bosch side. And the thing that like, from my point of view, best matches on the Kubernetes side is a pod, which is basically a collection of containers that shares some namespaces. In particular, the networking namespace. So a collection of pods maps to VM that runs processes. Oh, sorry. The disk maps pretty well to persistent volume claims on the Kubernetes side, which is basically a handle to a disk that exists somewhere that you can attach to containers, to pods and mount them to containers. And a stem cell is basically a container image. But let's look a little bit deeper into that mapping and you'll see why I call it naive. Let's start with the VM pod mapping. What does Bosch do? It basically starts a VM that has an agent process running there and then remote controls that VM. It downloads like a compilation VM that it compiles packages on a runtime VM. It downloads packages, downloads rendered templates like the configuration and then starts up jobs using a monitor as the health, also via monitor. On the Kubernetes side, you create a pod that actually already has multiple containers that are based on existing images and the configuration level. The configuration is already mounted and you basically monitor containers, not the additional monitor. I'll come to what the problems here are in a bit.  And like on the Kubernetes side, you create a persistent volume claim and you create pods that already have a persistent volume claim attached to them. So that disconnect that the CPI API has is problematic, which you'll see exactly now. So what's the naive Kubernetes CPI doing? For create VM, it's actually creating a pod with a single container that then via agent, downloads stuff, installs them in the right place and starts up lots of processes in that one little tiny container. So that's not optimal when you look at it from the Kubernetes side, where you have basically one container per job. Create disk is not a big deal. You create a persistent volume claim that you can later use, but attach disk is the problem. Like in my current implementation, I actually have to delete the pod that I just created. I mean, if you look into the Bosch director code, that's just the next line that attaches the disk or at least it's very, very close. So you create a VM, that's where I spin up a pod and then a couple of seconds later, I delete that pod, start it up again with another disk, with a disk attached, which actually makes a problem because when I started these efforts, there wasn't actually, the director wasn't actually, wasn't even waiting for the agent to respond very long because they didn't expect the agent to go away in between attach disk. So attach disk actually failed because there were no hot beats for however long it takes to bootstrap the agent. And another thing that does not work is things like migrating disks because the agent bootstrap doesn't like it very much if you bootstrap it in the middle of migrating a disk, which is an agent local operation, at least right now. So these are kind of the problems that you have with a naive Kubernetes CPI, but it does work. So you can get something running. So what I'm going to do now, if everything works fine, is deploy a ZooKeeper release, a ZooKeeper cluster and run the smoke tests that are provided as a Bosch errand on that thing. So let me mirror my display. This is too small, I would say. Why is that showing the history of that session? So is that big enough? So what we have here is a Bosch director in a recent version with a Kubernetes CPI deployed next to it that is actually rather empty. So there's no VMs running. What we do have is the ZooKeeper release already there so that we don't have to wait for it to compile and things like that.  So now it's creating, missing VMs and stuff like that. So we might want to actually look at that. So if we now look at the VMs, there are already some running, there it's already updating them. We can also look at that on the Kubernetes side of things of the world. So there's pods running. If you see that, there's five pods actually. Two of them are the director we are working on and the director that deployed the director that we are using. So three of these pods are actually the ZooKeeper things. So maybe dragging that, well, it doesn't work. Then don't drag it down. So it's taking some time. Let's actually start watching for these VMs and watching for these pods. We don't need that much space here. One is already done, next one is there. So this is done. Now comes the hacky part of my demo. I have to immediately recreate this cluster because there's, I suspect it's a bug in Bosch DNS which is bleeding edge that I'm using. I had just half an hour with Dimitri looking into it, but that didn't help to actually get to a solution. So I think I have his curiosity to get that thing fixed. It's like Bosch with local DNS is putting the DNS entries in at-c hosts and I don't know why it's not done the first time. It might be related to the CPI or mini queue where I'm running on, but somehow I suspect it's something with local DNS which is like work in progress. The worst thing is that it took a minute already and I was like out of words already to entertain you while that was running. What I'm going to do next is actually run the smoke test. So there's an errand job in the same manifest that will talk to that Tsukipa cluster, set values, delete them, test for latency, things like that. And that's what I'm going to run as soon as this one here is good. Maybe, yeah, sure. Yeah, I did use the Bosch CLI version two and create it with the CPI with the same one. So there's nothing special I would say for that CPI. Why I did that is what, that was my first experiment. When I had that CPI basically running, I wanted to see if it can deploy Bosch as the first use case I had. I've chosen Tsukipa for this one basically because it has an errand job that shows that something is running there. I mean, theoretically that I'm using that inner Bosch to deploy things shows that the deployment used, done with my CPI actually worked, but I thought that was more accurate. So this is now creating a missing VM to run that errand job. You should see that both down in the Bosch VM swatch and in the get pod swatch. Now updating that, so putting packages on there and the rendered templates for control scripts. Now it's running the errand. I mean, you now have like maybe I could show something like that. You really have, oh, it's done. The formatting is not very nice, the output of that test, but you basically see that it's talking to Tsukipa cluster, putting values in there, watching them, getting them, deleting them. There's I think three test suites in there. I didn't look very deeply into the tests that are done here. It was just a showcase that the cluster actually is running. You basically have everything that you would suspect, like you can Bosch SSH into these things. Bosch SSH, so no, oh yeah. So there you go. So you can basically use it as any other CPI. Let's get back to the slides. Here we go. So I hope I could have shown that that Bosch CPI for Kubernetes works, kind of. So there are some problems. Some of them I already told you, like it's really just a single container running multiple processes, which is not nice. It is really ugly to attach a disk. And there's some other things, like Kubernetes out of the box has no manual networking, which is why I use Bosch DNS, which is in the early stages, or well, it's not finished yet at least. You could do something on the Kubernetes side, but I just didn't want to do that. With Coleco, I think you could kind of fiddle around, but that would pose requirements on the Kubernetes cluster. So if you get a provided one, and that doesn't have Coleco configured to do that, so I didn't do that. It runs privileged containers, which is probably not nice, but the agent does things like mounting disks and others, so it's problematic not to run that, so that's a big problem there. And I had a problem with nested containers. So I actually wanted to show something like CFBush look, here's Cloud Foundry, but Garden doesn't like to run in an overlaid X4 file system. There might be solutions. I already talked to Jules, but yeah, I don't know. I'll keep working on that, but nested containers is one of the other problems that I see here. So how would a native, a more native Kubernetes CPI look like? I talked about that a lot already. It would be a container per job. You wouldn't have Monit to start things and run unprivileged containers. I put the last thing in brackets because that's not really where I'm focusing on, but you could try to move some lifecycle capabilities out of Bosch and into Kubernetes. I'm not sure if that's worth it, but that's something I also considered like how to get there. And now if we have a look at how Bosch could help, well, it could run jobs as containers. First of all, that would actually give us releases that work in container isolation, which is not the case right now. I mean, if you look into that, jobs are not isolated at all from each other. They all run as v-cap if they actually do that, otherwise they even run as root. And they can all write in each other's storages like ephemeral and persistent storage, so there's basically no isolation in Bosch. Changing that would help with getting forward with the Kubernetes CPI. Actually, I don't think that anybody likes Monit since we are locked on that version that we are locked on, so we would get rid of that or have to get rid of that. And we would run jobs with these privileges. If I look at that list, none of these items is something that I wouldn't want in the VM world, like jobs that are really isolated that can't walk on each other's food and things like that, getting rid of Monit. So I think that's actually work on this side is beneficial. Actually, there's some project already going on in that direction on the pivotal side. I think it's crucible, so you probably hear about that. Anyway, so on the other hand, how could Kubernetes help? Well, the problems were basically that I couldn't modify things like the list of containers, the list of disks at runtime. That would be really great to actually come to an implementation like that. I didn't dig very deep in that, but there's discussions apparently in the Kubernetes community coming from a use case of I wanna debug a running pod and attach debugging tools for that. And that's basically the two options that they were talking about, just allowing to attach a sidecar container that has these tools or at least a volume. So that would pretty much help. You could think about an agent container that spins up sibling containers or something like that if the Kubernetes side would allow that. So concluding, Abash Kubernetes CPI is possible, but there's really quite some work to make it less naive than what I have now, which is pretty naive. But the work is valuable for the VM world as well. You can use that there. If you wonder what's next on my agenda, I think I'm going to look like how far can we actually get with a naive approach, like building up, using more things. But at the same time, I will try to influence Bosch and Kubernetes communities to get to a better mapping. And the last point basically depends on the community. The project is on GitHub in the SAP org. I'm completely happy to incubate that in the Cloud Foundry community, but that depends on you. Like, if there's no interest, I'm not going to do the paperwork for that. I have something to push to and it's open. So that depends on you, like ping me on wherever you want, Slack, Twitter. If you're convincing, I'm really happy to do that. So that's basically it. One more thing we are hiring. So if you're interested to work at the SAP Cloud Platform, no problem. And with that, thank you very much for being here with me. There's like contact data for me. If you have questions, we have time for questions now and I'll be around like till the end of the day and I'm around on Slack and yeah, thank you. If there are questions, I would prefer for the video to use the microphone, actually. Anyone? Thank you. Can you describe a little bit more what you said when you tried to deploy this? You mean what happened? Yeah, because you said that there was problems with containers running inside of containers. It was like, I mean, I was using CF deployment, which is going to be the next big thing on how to deploy the Cloud Foundry and Garden didn't start up. It didn't find a driver for the graph storage stuff. That was like, probably basically because it was an OverlayDX4 file system and then Garden is starting OUFs and that doesn't like to run an Overlay file system. So that was the basic problem. Ideas from Jules that I'm going to try out is using GrootFS or stuff like that. Although I heard from the Bosch team that they experimented with GrootFS and were not getting far with that for, but that was just like. Would you, if that wasn't a problem, do you think you would be able to run it with like the amount of memory you have on your system? Yeah, I think you can like use Bosch Lite and run Foundry on it. That should have similar memory boundaries. So yeah, but it did put my system under pressure. Yeah, okay. Running MiniCube with eight gigabyte of ROM don't expect to work on that machine without looking at other programs at the same time. Especially when it's compiling or things like that. Hey, let me ask you, did he, like if your objective is running Cloud Foundry in Kubernetes, do you think that Bosch is the right call to do that or? Did you see a better tool to run distributed systems in clouds? I didn't yet. I like Bosch. Specifically here, I like Bosch. But if you're running something like Kubo, right, like you're running Kubernetes in Bosch. Yeah, use in Bosch. Why not just try, give all the parameters to Kubernetes like in a YAML file and say, hey, run Cloud Foundry? Well, I don't like Bosch manifests very much, although they got a good way better, but this what you describe would be even worse, I guess. It would be even longer, even more YAML. Like, I don't know, is there anything more than an enterprise YAML architect? Like, somebody who is even more, I'm not sure. And it's like as the community installs Cloud Foundry with Bosch, I think it's problematic to try other ways like you lose the community. How does this relate to Kubo? What does it unlock? Well, a toy thing that I would have loved to present is like the ultimate inception to install a Kubo with Bosch onto Kubo. But that would just be a toy thing, right? I don't know if that unlocks something. I could imagine that Kubo could get into a stage where more and more parts of Kubernetes are self-hosted. But I'm not sure, because I mean, I need an API server at least, and then you're already pretty far. Like, if you look into what the Kubernetes community is doing concerning bootstrapping, they are thinking of like starting a Kubelet that looks like a pod and then start an API server. So that's things that won't be possible with the CPI, I guess. If there's no more questions, again, thank you very much for attending. Have a good evening.