flesh to understand what's going on what's at stake in France right now so what's going on right now is a godsend we've got to let the republic go to the end of its logic what the suburbs are doing right now of course the motive is bullshit they don't ransacked when one of their own kill our children or shut up a better client but that's just the way it is but you have to be strategic and i remind you that we're europeans right now they're doing the job for us it's perfect they're way more effective than any political video i made a little video to try to show how rotten was the republic okay so compared to a perspective of you know we must go out into the streets and confront armed rioters and hold up signs saying stealing is violating gods 10 10 commandments and i think that's even a worse strategy so between having an exaggerated sense of your own importance so that you go out into the streets confronting you know rioters and looters right that's that's absolutely terrible so your first responsibility should be to your family and then to your extended family and your your community but uh people want to fall down on no either side of an extreme right one one extreme is to think that they can just completely you know change the the nature of reality so they can go out there and they can change the world they can band together with their friends like Dennis Prager says you know he wants to shape the future of america he feels like he can he can save the bible and keep it alive for future generations right this is an absurd level of overconfidence about how much influence you can have on the other hand you should pray for the welfare of the government it's a basic jewish teaching that i subscribe to from perke avot the ethics of the fathers from the meshna 2000 years ago rabbi hanina teachers pray for the welfare of the government but were it not for the fear it inspires every man would swallow his neighbor alive right this is a rabbi teaching when jews and romans are constantly at each other's throats they go through two very intense wars that mark the end of the rise of the roman empire and uh well over a million jews die in these wars so this is not someone speaking out of a naive naive understanding of reality and a naive understanding of the cruelty and the downsides of roman rule but you want even bad government almost always bad government is preferable to anarchy pray for the welfare of the government but were it not for the fear it inspires every man would swallow his neighbor alive whereas political philosopher thomas hobs put it in the 17th century life without government would be nasty brutish and short so to say that you're happy to see the government burned down is essentially to side off on the mass slaughter of tens of thousands hundreds of thousands millions of your fellow citizens fellow members of your nation they're doing a thousand times better they're humiliating it even internationally we're one year away from the olympic games and here's what france is what everyone sees on tv so let it yes a multicultural anti-white rainbow flag waving government is preferable to no government to be after a while they'll call people like us like us to come and clean up for now just sit tight yeah this guy's delusional thinking that the elites are gonna cause core people like him papasito and gen france were to come and clean up the mess right people like richard spencer and other distant right leaders believe that eventually the government's going to turn to them to clean up the mess this police force that helped this regime so much during the covet is now sent by the same regime to contain the huns with contempt to boot since immanuel macron condemn the policemen who did his job and the police don't want to strike they can't uh the french overall have a pretty high quality of life right uh the french overall are pretty happy and feel awesome about being french france definitely has its problems but uh overall life in france is not a hellscape for reasons of status money so they won't strike so the republic is faced with the dilemma it has its arms and its bodies and the chat says i'll call on the saps to watch football and endure regime punishment beatings no i'll call on the police and if necessary the armed forces who are plenty capable of i would expect to you know get get a reign on this eventually so our ruling elites are not idiots and they do not completely lack aptitude and competence they're not going to call on papasito and gen france why i gotta repeat and richard spencer to clean this up they will turn this over to trained professionals in the police and possibly in the armed forces men who are in the process of fighting each other the huns shouldn't go too far and the cops shouldn't break but in the current logic the huns and further and the policemen are likely to crack so your first instinct is to defend your country but you won't defend it you'll defend the regime and you'll allow the far left to say oh look there's this political okay looks making some good challenges here we must support a government that promotes chaos and anarchy to support the stop chaos and anarchy we should recognize that having police is better than not having police but even if the police are celebrating things that you don't agree with but even if the government you know celebrate some things that you you know think are terrible right where where on earth do you think it's better right you live in the united kingdom so where on earth do you think it's better than what's going on in the united kingdom france germany the united states canada like where are these that much more blessed much more free much more prosperous societies i can't think of any so whatever problems that france has and canada has in the united states and united kingdom have you still have life better than 99.9 percent of people who have ever lived and you still have life better than 98 percent of people who are alive today and so i would think that should inculcate some sense of gratitude for all the flaws of the government and the elites and you know i probably agree with most of your your critiques of them they still provide you a quality of life that's better than 98 percent of people elsewhere in the world oh singapore and japan well move there move there right life in Singapore is uh is no walk in the park right it's a pretty tough place to adjust to uh japan japan has no interest in you moving there so you know where else on earth are they going to take you in and be happy about uh you you're moving there the quality of life is declining okay compared to where where do you think the quality of life is so much better do you really think the quality of life is just dramatically better in singapore and and japan i know people who live in singapore and i know people who live in japan and there are plenty of ways that life in singapore and japan is better just like i was in australia and there's virtually no crime there's compared to the united states high social trust and high social cohesion so those are some ways that uh life in australia is much better than in the united states on the other hand if i move to australia right i would earn about 60 percent as much money and my living expenses would be twice as much as they are in america right uh 67 american cents gets you one australian dollar right australia united kingdom prince germany europe are in for very tough times economically right life in america is far more prosperous far more free and uh is on a far better trajectory right the united states is going to continue to dominate the world even outstrip its competitors in the decades ahead typical group fighting this ethnic group and that's not at all desirable because they'd once again be the referee now that's over now they have to be involved did you saw what happened to martin's bilongo he tried to meet the rioters thinking that all of edify's submissiveness was going to pay off and he got beat up with a crutch so yeah i live in west l.a there's virtually no crime here right virtually no crime in west l.a virtually no crime in beveley hills there's virtually no crime in the eastern suburbs of sydney now it's a it's a very competitive life you have to work really hard and you have to essentially earn six figures to be able to live in nice areas that's what's going to happen to the far left in the next few days they're going to be beaten with crutches you'll note that i profit and the chat says you need to visit united kingdom again 40 is turning into a pit yeah a lot of problems in united kingdom but still life is better i would expect the 98 percent of uh places on earth i guess that people in the country side would be safe from such things and they are it's all happening in the cities i warned you a long time ago go to the country normally people our age in the country are conservative they know why they left the cities so it's all very well for i don't know about you but i love to live my life around writers and professors and philosophers and uh these people overwhelmingly live in cities i also want to live my life around orthodox jews but where where can you go where you can go to you know social gatherings of writers you know pretty much every night of the week right you can only do that in a big city right there are all sorts of you know opportunities in a city that are simply not available for people in the country right yeah go to the country if you like it but most people who enjoy life in the city are not going to be thrilled with life in the country for the countryside to be spared if you live in the country you won't have riots and if a rioter shows up you've got all the tools you need not so much in the city right now they're tearing down apartments of centrist and far leftist these people look out their windows and see fire with hans dancing around absolutely beautiful statement by papa cheeto i didn't even know this guy apparently yeah for john france wire this is beautiful because john france wire like papasito also wants to stay on the sidelines you know stay in a remote area and just watch everything burn down right if you love people and have people who love you you're not going to be at ease with your society going up in flames right a very different perspective than that of steve sailor or charles murray who is still highly invested in america please a far right guy i should know but i didn't know this guy uh but my god is that what i think we are faced with a situation in which we have absolutely no interest at intervening one side or the other it is wait wait wait who's asking you to intervene right is that i agree there's no need for ordinary people to intervene you should take care of your family you should do your job you should take care of your community you should take care of your extended family you should develop skills and pursue your interests and you should volunteer and help out people you know do do charity work help people out five ten fifteen hours a week i think almost everyone should make make a few hours a week at least to help other people out no one's calling on randos on you know far right twitter and you know the right wing sections of youtube and social media to save a burning society this is pure delusion right this idea of oh we should force ourselves to stand back now i was asking you to intervene in what are criminal matters these are policing matters these are matters for the police and our leaders our elites our politicians even on the left right they're not going to be content with their entire society burning down they will use police and increase police presence and bring in armed forces if necessary to get a handle on these things nobody's asking for right wing randos to intervene here is the conclusion of what we've been saying what happened it's happening so we're right and there is destruction please guys look forward viewers i need you to stand back and stand by there is destruction of the very regime that ultimately is not persecuting those minorities in fact it is bolstering as if the police stopped the causes that's not the job it's not the police job to address causes we don't know the causes of crime right but we do know what stops crime and that's to put dangerous criminals in prison for a very long time right if we simply lock up the super predators for a long time we will crush crime we get to choose how much crime we have right we could live in the united states in a society that is 10 times safer than it is right now by simply locking up super predators in the united kingdom you could live in a society that is 10 times safer than it is right now if if you musted the political and cultural will to lock up super predators for longer periods you would crush crime very simple and republicans for all their flaws they all pretty much seem to be on board with tougher law enforcement and policing and punishment of violent criminals than parties on the left it is emboldening those minorities that is giving them chances that they wouldn't have had otherwise this regime is really oppressing us white european therosexual as if the police stop grooming gangs well why are so many women vulnerable to grooming gangs because they don't have much of a life in their families right if these women had any sort of connection to their families they wouldn't be picked up by grooming gangs and if men protected their families they would not permit the thriving of grooming gangs right citizens taking action legally forming safety patrols could put a stop to grooming gangs and politically taking action stopping immigration and insisting on higher punishment for violent criminals would put a major dent in this bad behavior people but let this regime be totally destroyed or partially at least weakened by whatever amount of force these rioters are capable of deploying right so jf has some interesting thoughts on the french race right i mean it's possible if if the fireworks are meant to create that kind of sound and that kind of look uh fascinating i don't know it's good to know thank you for letting me know super channel says take my magic beans do you think ukrainian woman will be an option due to the war the longer it goes on the more women available i think that there will be very few um i think they will definitely be adding to the market and when you had to the market you know more offer uh that leaves space for lower price and i'm not saying just trust the place i'm saying just trust reality and the reality is that you can't stop rampaging violent criminals as a civilian right so what alternative do you have so trust reality avoid violent criminals the best you can to the extent that it's legal uh join safety patrols in your community like take up arms if it's legal get trained in self-protection in communal protection uh look after your families earn as much money as you can legally and morally and in an upstanding fashion and develop better and better relations with the people around you that's the best way to stay safe in turbulent times and in good times and therefore you may acquire a ukrainian woman or a woman that got her mail taken by a ukrainian woman so whenever this kind of event happens uh if this balance in the sexes it's good it's good for the other sex when there are more members of the their opposite sex that being said uh there is the possibility that they will be they come from a very corrupt very low-level high-criminality country safety patrol sounds like a lawsuit in the making or career-ending viral social media video no do it right there are all sorts of safety patrols all around the united states do it legally do it correctly do it in in connection with law enforcement you've got the the guardian angels in new york city uh jewish communities have uh their own their own safety patrols and they take you know many steps to try to keep their community safe you should take legal steps to keep your community your street safe and that might mean you will be dealing with a female who has pre-evolved to fuck you up in ways that you don't you can't even conceive of as a way so i i think this notion that ukrainian women are just evolved to f you up far more likely you know just disproportionately compared to american women i think that's delusional here by by jf yeah there will be some culture clash with the eastern european women compared to western european women i just don't think is at all clear that eastern european women are just you know so much more dangerous western european so you have to be careful for this uh ukrainian values are not the same as western european values and you know there was this uh east yeah you have to be careful with who you allow into your life you have to be careful with whom you go to bed you have to be careful with whom you choose to have children right you should be very careful about the people you allow into your life whether they are ukrainian eastern european or not turn european guard with a fat guy on tv and it was the it was clear to anyone of the audience that she was with what if a gentleman of color gets up in your grill demanding that you kiss his boot you should look at your alternatives in some alternatives the best thing for you to do would be to kick him in the balls punch him in the face and beat him down uh in other situations depending on who you are what the situation is the best thing would be to do would be to kiss his boot right there's a time and a place to fight and there's a time and a place to acquiesce and there's a time and a place to run and there's a time and a place to call police but uh the better connected you are to other people right the more you will find out what's going on in the world around you and the more likely other people will be to come to your aid just as the more likely you will be to come to other people's aid so the answer to this problem along with every other problem from earthquakes to how do you survive inflation unemployment uh technological disruption get connected to your family your extended family build friends build community be a valuable part of your church your your synagogue volunteer right get rooted get connected film for the green card and at some point she basically says it to her you should never walk alone right you shouldn't walk alone you should walk with other people you should form common cause with other people you should get bonded with other people you create shared reality with other people and you should protect other people and the more that you protect and look out for other people if they're at all decent the more likely they are to look out and protect you when he starts crying you have to be careful that they may be uh yes the decay shadow they are born yeah so luke makes fun of me here luke krav lick the boot give him your car keys and a tone for your whiteness sometimes that is a better outcome than getting murdered right you think you should stand and deliver and uh risk you know getting murdered right i think it's best to stay alive and sometimes staying alive means you know accepting very humiliating terms so between accepting humiliation and getting murdered i say accept some humiliation also you know get connected with reality and the people around you so that you don't place yourself in situations where these sorts of things happen sleeper agents they were they can wreck your life they will wreck your life they will wreck your heart and they will use you to whatever and they want but sometimes among that use sometimes a a window of opportunity opens okay so what type of woman comes along and just uses you and wrecks your life a woman who's on about the same level of emotional maturity as you right we cannot stand to spend much time with people who are either who are less mature than ourselves right it's it's just too irritating infuriating disgusting repellent like they're they're underachieving their their maladaptive behavior stinks in our nostrils and we want to get away so whoever we bring into our lives is a reflection of us so jf wants to point the finger at oh it's women they're the cause of so much misery it's these ukrainian women these eastern european women they'll they'll f you up well if you allow you know bad women into your life that says a great deal about you there's something about you that is unhealthy uh doesn't have a proper sense of boundaries doesn't have self respect and therefore it doesn't treat other people respectfully and therefore you are you know wide open to people coming along and abusing you all right let me play a little more here for baby making uh but yeah males are dying in ukraine because they've been selected by force to stay there and defend and the women have been immigrating or staying in ukraine so the the overall mathematical aspect is relatively positive for for the males outside of this group callumax word says that you see the video and ludicraft marks me give up all your honor to live for another day yeah ludicraft is there anyone who loves you what do the people who love you want you to do do they want you to take a courageous stand and get murdered i believe you're in your 20s right the people who love you want you to risk your life in some pointless you know courageous stand or do they want you to stay alive so that they can continue to you know have you around and to love you and to build things together with you if you have people who love you i suspect you should ask them what they would want you to do do they want you to take a pointless courageous stand that ends your life in your 20s or would they prefer to see you stay alive for 60 years and make contributions to their lives to the community to the world of the rioters cutting down the cctv poll and the hits it is something that you'll hear even in high-class context with uh with rich french people with highly cultured or educated very undertone to political convert no maybe yes a building water weight says since five bucks thank you so much he says is this france's george floyd moment it is it is but uh you have to understand that france is different than america france has a very revolutionary undertone to political conversation revolution is not a taboo in france it is kind of a taboo politically you go nowhere in america if you are siding with the revolution in france it is an everyday subject of conversation people will remind themselves of oh yeah you remember when we cut these heads from the aristocrats maybe we should do a little more of this you know french people constantly talk about killing people and uh killing the elite it is something that you'll hear even in high class context with uh with rich french people with highly cultured or educated french people whereas in america you're going to consider this as a taboo expression of low level violence so because of this there is a revolutionary tradition in france of supporting of kind of kind of hypocritically supporting the violence saying nothing about it not wanting it to stop there's much more support for what we see for anarchy in general than you would have in america in america you still have the sense of law and order in france law and order is the taboo because the french imaginary okay this is a fascinating perspective here from jf but uh lucraft is bringing some interesting points in the chat he says does a person ever get off their knees once they have accepted the the way of life of bowing to reality yeah they do if you have a job you are effectively a slave to your boss 40 hours a week all right uh someone who stays married all right they do it by keeping their mouth shut when their their spouse you know makes horrible accusations at times where their space their spouse is just you know out of out of his mind or out of her mind right the way you maintain friends the way you maintain life in community all right is by biting your tongue at times and putting up with someone you know saying things about you that aren't true so yeah so having a job is effectively a form of slavery it's you know humiliating for the the the great talented soul who believes that you know he's worthy of so much more but it's just simply accepting of reality if you love your children you will change their diapers right you will wade through their feces and their urine and you will clean it up again and again thousands and thousands of times you will go through that humiliation because you love your kids so why would you not go be willing to go through humiliation so that you can have the opportunity to wade through rivers of feces and urine and raise your own kids but that means that you must have you know higher priority than feeling like a hero in some delusional stand in you know a wacky and wild world is is obsessed with the idea that collaboration with law and order is the greatest sin uh they have acquired this with mimics around their collaboration with the nazis in world war two but it has developed in you don't you don't steal someone you don't call the police you don't complain that you've been the victim of a crime those are very much french values right now so a george floyd moment in france is very different from a george floyd moment in america uh because there is hidden dark support for so every man wants to be a hero right every man wants to take a stand against evil but uh how about being a hero in the way you conduct your daily life like you want to die for the west but how about living for the west you want to die for your country how about living for your country you want to die for your people how about living for your people you want to die for your family how about living for your family right so instead of like going out in a blaze of glory why not start creating a glorious life one action at a time one word at a time one habit at a time one commitment at a time one relationship at a time one you know charitable donation charitable donation at a time that one active helping somebody else at a time getting connected to you to your neighbors to your community to your synagogue or your church so one volunteer opportunity at a time one book at a time one essay at a time how about becoming a hero by building a heroic upstanding life where you are a good friend to yourself and where from the time you wake up in the morning to the time you go to bed you feel good about how you've conducted yourself so more than 90 of the time from the time i get up in the morning from 3 a.m until 9 p.m i feel pretty good about everything i've done during that time i haven't eaten too much i haven't talked too much i haven't under exercised i haven't you know overindulged i haven't you know masturbated i haven't looked at pornography i feel solid all right about every choice that i've made most of the time right it's a life that builds together as a sympathy it's a heroic life so instead of going out in a blaze of glory why don't you live for your family live for your friends live for your community live for your people live for your church for your synagogue they create an honorable life that is heroic day in and day out a lot of what you're seeing right now i'm not saying that the french people are okay with their stuff being broken but i'm saying the french people fundamentally sees the police as a third party a third hostile party they may have some problems with the riots they're gonna say all right the rioters have been bugging my life i hate them but they're going to have much more trouble with the police and the police they're like at the lowest level of respect in France so that's how it works that's how their cultural thing differs and that's how it can lead to a much more political friction and much more impact on the society so here we have a live video so there's been riots everywhere followed by live stream all night and it is still the night as we speak there so i've never recorded having being forced to kiss anyone's boot all right if you're humiliated in all likelihood is because you've gotten out of touch with reality you are somewhere you shouldn't be you have said words you should not have said you have acted in a way you should not have acted you are out after midnight in parts of town that you should not be out in after midnight so in all likelihood any humiliations that you are going through are the result of your choices so it's so much easier to blame it on you know the blacks the elites the jews the gays the the trans the whatever in all likelihood the overwhelming amount of humiliation that you face in your life is because of your choices right it's not the out groups it's not the elites right it's not the government not the politicians it's not the bureaucrats it's not the media right your humiliations overwhelmingly will result because you have gotten out of touch with reality you have been placed you have placed yourself in positions you should not be because of your own bad choices you have said things that you should not have said right you have not accumulated the skills that you needed to accumulate to lead a good and honorable and prosperous life you have not put in the hard work to build a prosperous life you have not built the relationships with family with friends with community right with people in your profession that would enable you to thrive and to live a good life so in all likelihood the overwhelming majority of humiliations that you have suffered because of your choices not because of something that society in the first world has imposed upon you police reinforcements heading to lian france that was maybe today the reinforcements and tanks so people were noting a very interesting note on this today you didn't get you got the coverage of the pregozin civil war against putin but the pregozin civil war against putin there's a handful of explosions that have been involved maybe a couple of shootings here and there but that is it and it was covered as a civil war how is it that if i go and see an end right now i don't see that france is in a civil war it's because the party that the parties that are at war in france is probably the reason you go on cnn you don't see that uh france is in a civil war is because france is not in a civil war it has a criminal problem it has a law enforcement problem it has race riots but it's not a civil war now i know it's very exciting to say france is being convulsed by civil war it makes you sound like you know incredibly important commentator who can reveal truths that you know the establishment is hiding from you but the reason that uh normal journalists don't talk about america being in a civil war or france being in a civil war is because they are not in a civil war they have crime problems the racial minority of the country which is very much supported uh by leftist and by leftist media and so they won't cover it as a civil war but i mean they have basically more explosion more destruction than you've seen done by pregozin or anything like this and yet they were like oh my god russia is about to fall if russia was about to fall because some private general of a mercenary army shot maybe one plane with maybe one member of the russian army uh what is this this is a country that's completely fallen this is a country in ruin liberal france gave them a refuge uh people are talking about how there there is a lot of the middle eastern population of france that is uh participating to these riots hundreds of buildings like this have been burnt in france in the last few days the rents has a law enforcement problem right we think about how much better the united states would have been if it had handled 9 11 as a law enforcement issue but it didn't it had to be a clash of civilizations it had to be islamo fascism had to be we have to fight them over there so we don't fight them over here so all the overheated rhetoric about islam following 9 11 did us no good right it led us to pointless stupid idiotic self-destructive invasions of afghanistan and iraq we would have been so much better off if we'd treated 9 11 as a law enforcement issue tightened up on the people we allowed into the country like tightened up on enforcing visas tightened up on the severity with which we patrolled airports and entrance to the united states right so so too i suspect france and united states and other countries would do well to primarily treat these race riots as matters for more enforcement to deal with you tackle them get the bad guys put them away for a very long time and you'll crush our crime rates all right what else do we have uh z more on the riots we are in the early stages of a civil war that's obvious it's an ethnic war we can see clearly that it's a race war we see what forces are involved we need someone determined and firm the problem above all is the number absolutely proper analysis here by iraq z more france has fallen to african migrants and is now in beyond i couldn't imagine being a bitter old man ranting to 20 people on youtube about anti-semitism i guess someone has to do it uh what what channel are you watching i don't recall anyone ranting about anti-semitism right so i'm sure there's a target that would be appropriate for your missile but if anyone has been as open and welcoming of free and fair criticism of all groups including jews right uh that would be me i can't think anyone who is more extended themselves more bent over backwards to open up free open fair criticism of all sacred cows and all groups compared to what i've done on social media over the past what eight years islamic caliphate when i told you you know young people in france can very well be armed with ak-47s or the likes uh hey we've got eliot blatt backs no eliot you said you were backstage and you're gone oh here there you are foolish me i'm in error eliot blatt what what's what's going on bro oh blessing bro blessings good points from really really crisp crisp presentation tonight enjoying it um uh yeah so i i happened to catch uh richard last night and richard was basically dunking on the zoomers and i i do sort of agree with him and the zoomers uh seem to have this attitude is though they don't have to pay their dues they're just sort of entitled to go at the top and i don't think our generation being an ex or at all i don't think we ever had such notions i i really think that we kind of understood that uh you needed to earn your way to the top and or even earn your way to the middle and uh it was the basic point and and these zoomers you know not to criticize them but they weren't properly educated i think the first generation that their uh their you know secondary school was probably really infused with marxism to a degree that ours as exers wasn't what do you think i've never thought deeply about the generations but we all have our blind spots and i just i just my mind just doesn't relate to generations as being a significant category it probably is it may very well be but my mind just doesn't work that way it's it would be like talking to me about uh different flavors of men's cologne or perfume my a lot of my friends talked to me about generational differences and i i just i'm just blank when it comes to that topic i'm sorry uh no i can sort of see your point but i i i don't think it's can it's also i don't think the idea is without merit either i think there is something to generations and i don't want to say it's necessarily dispositive but there is something there and i i just reflect on my own personal experience with the 30 and underset and how fundamentally disappointing it is and i think there's something there i think there's these kids i think kids that grew up with the internet and the amount of instant gratification because the internet has the safe lift within come to expect don't have the ability to appreciate bitterness and hard work and i think that's a real difference without generation every like what wasn't the fact of being a teenager in your early twenties is that you have an overestimation of your own abilities and how how special you are and how your ordinary rules are not going to apply to you and you're not going to be you know hamstrung and lead you know a life like your parents so i think just part of being young is to have you know a sense of drama and a sense of your own specialness and i had it at 1822 25 as well i i think you probably did too i'm sure there are some ways that our generation was superior and there's some ways that our generation was inferior like i i mean plenty of you know upstanding impressive 18 20 25 years i i don't find anything overall inferior about them compared to other generations um i'm not saying that exceptions don't exist but i think it's a valid observation i honestly do i i think uh the ease um the ease with which things are brought to or the ease with which things have been brought to kids post internet has skewed their perception of how difficult the world really is and what it took to bring us to where we are i think there's i think there is a lack of appreciation for what has been built and what has been given to them and i i i think i think it's a mistake to sort of discount this criticism i i don't discount it i just don't see it because i i don't think that we had the qualities meaning our generation had had those qualities when we were 18 to 25 did you really think that we had appropriate respect for the hard work that is necessary to create a good life when we were 18 to 25 not us necessarily as individuals but as a generation i don't think we have the option i think we had to because i think life was considerably more difficult i i honestly do and i'm not trying to be the guy you know to get off my lawn the old you know when i was a kid type of guy here but it's true that we didn't grow up with cell phones we didn't grow up with internet we grew up with you know um you know landline telephones and three channels on the television and uh i just a very limited array of of dopamine opportunities that these kids seem to have been suffused in since birth yeah i think that's accurate but there are many advantages to the way we grew up and there there are advantages to the opportunities that they have i i don't think it's like you know one one way is just inherently more productive of good people than than the other like we benefited from those restrictions of freedom and we lacked opportunities that this generation has i mean how much interaction have you had with zoomers and what is a zoomer is it people in their 20s yeah to me a zoomer is somebody under 30 yeah i mean i don't know if that's the actual definition but to me that's what i'm thinking you know and i've had a very narrow set of uh interactions with people under 30 but you know i well how do i say this but like um these kids like you know i've i've now quote-unquote employed to quote-unquote zoomers right yeah and the terms of conversation are not like oh what can i do for you it's like what can you meaning me do for them right there's a total inversion of the sort of traditional uh employer employee relationship that was thoroughly unthinkable in my days as a 20 year old wait wait wait you were 20 were you thinking a great deal at your work about what you can do for your employer i just no i'm thinking yeah well i'm thinking what can i get out of it but i fundamentally understood that you know my value my paycheck was completely determined by what i could do for my employer like i had no illusions about who stood where in the hierarchy and today's zoomers come to you and they believe that they're peers and they're not peers they've taken no risk right they see themselves as entitled to a certain lifestyle and it's up to me to provide that for them do you see what i'm saying um i mean i hear what you're saying but i mean i just know how incredibly selfish and self-centered i am like i have not spent my you know a career as an employee thinking about how i can be a service to my employer i've thought about how i can get laid uh when i'm at work i thought about how i can you know form intense relationships at work so that i can you know do the things that i want to do and avoid the unpleasant things i thought about how i can maximize my income and benefits and you know have a harmonious work situation that's you know most congenial to me i have spent very little time thinking about how i can be of service to my employer and and in the last seven years that i've been enough to raise that from say you know 0.1 percent to you know perhaps two three or five percent of the time has has made a dramatic difference in the quality of my life but i'm still a 95 selfish person um well i mean i think you're basically giving us testimony as to how far divorced from reality you've been well then then uh how how inclined you know have you been to putting your employer's interest first i mean you must have i i well you know to be honest i i feel like i've been realistic i feel like i've recognized the totality of the situation of what it means to both manage your business and work for a business and try to keep the business afloat like uh i know i honestly recognize the risks other people have been taking and i respect those risks and i respect and appreciate people who have taken risks and therefore i'm willing to make sacrifices you know i understand the ecosystem in which i'm able to make a living and i act accordingly i i mean i i'm trying to remember is this you know the alien blot who is just so enraged by employment situations in the past oh don't don't get me wrong don't don't think that i don't have unpleasant work situations right but my unpleasant work situations i believe come from people either intentionally or unintentionally being incredibly obtuse and obnoxious and how much is it a result of your choices and your attitude and your behavior these unpleasant situations far less than you're implying bro yeah i'm implying that you're primarily responsible for the quality of your work life i'm not saying i'm not but i'm not saying that i'm solely responsible either no i'm saying you're effectively 80 plus because if your work life sucks you should you know uh get something better yeah so i should abandon my commitments oh so you said what commitments do you do you have like is there a reason that you should stay in a hellish situation uh when there could be a much more pleasant and remunerative situation elsewhere yeah no i don't think you owe owe it to your employer to stay in a hellish situation if there's a better situation elsewhere so rather than try to fix a hellish situation i should just just throw it all up just fuck it just throw it out the window bro yeah if you've got a better alternative i think the odds of you changing a hellish situation at work are very small but if you have what uh what from oral empirical evidence is a far superior option elsewhere you should take that there's no way you should stay in a hellish situation whether it's uh relationships or work um you should uh get something better bro you give me the advice of an under earner bro wait no i said something better something that pays you better and treats you better that's a very opposite of under running that's just no but you're you're basically you're your your attitude is very mercenary no my attitude is very self-respecting if everyone is as mercenary as you bro nothing would get done nothing would be built there's a time for sacrifice but why should you use yeah you should sacrifice for your family i don't know why you should sacrifice for for people um who you know are simply employing you when you have far better opportunities elsewhere i mean that makes no sense like it's not like japan where workers and employers have a deep often you know lifelong commitment to each other this is the united states of america where work relationships are overwhelmingly transactional and employers will get rid of you tomorrow if that's in their self-interest all true but there is no knowledge without sacrifice there is no great achievement without sacrifice so if you're you're basically advancing sort of the sort of careerist um what's the word um it's a pure victory you're advancing so you're saying basically if a situation rubs you the wrong way you should abandon it right no i said if it's a hellish situation if it's hell if you're in an ongoing hellish situation over months and there is a far superior alternative you should take it obviously you're you're not breaking news here right but there's difference between hell you know there's hell and then there's struggle right like my struggle bro like what i think is is like everyone seems to be rarely accustomed to throwing in the towel as soon as something is even remotely unpleasant that's all i'm talking about and like the difference between right when i was growing up there was a certain acknowledgement of respect for grit you had to have a certain amount of grit and grit was like a necessary component of your character if you're going to you know be somebody or be worthy of respect okay so let's talk about ratio of grit and and unpleasantness to to joy and i would say that my ratio when it comes to earning money over the past eight years of of joy to hell has been something like uh 10 to 1 like 10 times as much joy for every bit of hell right but but my dear would you say would you agree just to agree that the position you have at your sort of relatively advanced age is really a function of how much grit you brought to bear in your earlier years yeah i went through some you know unpleasant times i did some hard work so yeah but i don't believe that one should go through an awful you know hellish experience if there is a there is a superior alternative so working out is challenging and hard and and developing skills is often hard and doing well at school is often you know unpleasant and hard but don't make it unnecessarily unpleasant and unnecessarily hard one has to use you know good judgment no i agree there i agree there absolutely i mean you actually you do have to use discernment right um but i i mean you you've chronicled the the various you know very the the various trials and tribulations that you've endured to sort of reach this particular plateau that you're on right and when i was growing up it was just sort of understood that that you had to do you had to undergo a certain period of hardship if you meant if you were meant to achieve anything and that was sort of the basic assumption and that i i'm sort of quasi asserting that with the easy access to easy endorsements kids just kind of want the reward immediately and they're not so much down for the grit and what's your own attitude towards reward versus doing the hard work i i learned to love the grit bro and and so how does that i was i was totally like i was like everybody else right i want to do as little as possible yeah and get this much for it and get as much as possible right and when did that change when did that change it changed um i don't know mid 30s because i because here's why if you're ever overpaid right the problem with being overplayed is the insecurity of knowing you're overpaid yeah and that it'd be in your boss's best interest to replace you or get rid of you yeah you'd rather be underpaid yeah right and feel secure knowing that you're delivering more than what you're being paid for than being overpaid and knowing that you're you're you're on a tightrope that could easily snap yeah that's that's interesting because uh there are a lot of components there like you you may feel or have you know all sorts of evidence that you're being overpaid but if you're still providing you know a valuable function uh well it's not that you're performing it it's in my experience i had feared them like where i've been overpaid but when you're being overpaid the people overpaying you are working double time to figure out how to not have you around right and you're you're in a very you're in a much more precarious position than you think you are in yeah and so yeah so um i mean i'm just trying to i'm basically trying to echo your message of realism here like failing to appreciate the reality of the entire economic situation that you find yourself in will bite you ultimately even if you do manage to squeak out a few good years okay yeah so one of the things that i hate is you know dealing with idiots so i've managed to create a life where i have very few interactions with unpleasant people and so one of the ways that i did that is that i i charge top dollar for my alexander technique lessons like i charge more than most other alexander technique teachers because i find when i charge top dollar i get a far better quality of client and so in many areas in my life over the last eight years i find when i charge more than than average i deal with with better quality clients now landing those higher quality clients takes you know more work and i have to provide a a superior quality you know quality product you know i can't just go through the motions but it's been really important to me to minimize my interactions with people who i find highly unpleasant so i've been willing to make the sacrifices do the hard work to create a life where i have you know very few frustrating painful infuriating interactions with idiots uh or you certainly can't lose in that regard and that is very funny there's a meme out there like you know like it's it's the people that you give the breaks to you know i can't remember the specific meme but the lower you charge for your services the more complaints you get and it's the higher you charge it's like they can't wait to keep coming back yeah but like how to crack that nut is basically the riddle of you know that's what determines the winners and the losers yeah there's frank i think it's frank kern is an online marketer and he found that when he sold products for 39.95 or 69.95 it's just nothing but aggravation but when he he sold products that only cost $3,000 or more he just virtually had no aggravation he could run into people who bought his products you know at the beach or at the store and you know they'd just be friendly nice nice people and so too with me when i started out as a practice alexander technique teacher i mean i went down to $25 a lesson and this one student i had he asked for half lessons for $12.50 and then he would take the time to write a checkout he wanted to write the checkout for $12.50 at the end of each lesson and he'd also take phone calls during our lessons like just infuriating it's like that experience like no way in hell not doing that anymore you know not giving discounted lessons you know just went straight to $100 so our teachers told us you know just don't charge any more than 75 a lesson i just went to $100 and you know i may have lost out on a lot of students right a lot of you know other teachers just charged 60 or 50 or 75 probably got more students but every student i've had that i've charged $100 a lesson for has just been been a pleasure to work for work with i don't doubt it i don't doubt it and it's a very important point because i've certainly made that mistake i've way undercharged in the past and it's it's just brought me in contact with the the scum of the earth so no and insisting that i say a potential employer you know live up to their obligations they'll let let them know that this is not on this is not what i signed up for this is not the deal right so developing this sense of self-respect that you automatically develop when you treat yourself with respect you just automatically start insisting that other people treat you with respect or if they don't you walk away yeah yeah absolutely that's also an important point but conversely like back to the zoom the question like there is something about being under qualified right there's something about being worthy and i think there's a lot of these younger kids that's assume that they're much more worthy than they actually are but didn't everyone our age at 18 have the exactly the same attitude like to be 18 is to have a vast exaggerated sense of your own capabilities i'm not saying i didn't have this all i didn't also have this attitude but i got smacked down by reality bro and i'm thinking isn't it kind to get smacked down earlier rather than just allow someone to sort of uh drag on this sort of inflate inflated and detach from the reality uh of you and themselves well i think that's why there's a place for hard truths yeah that's why many people retreat retreat into a world of pornography and video games to try to escape the hard truths of life yeah that's absolutely true it's absolutely true instead of having a relationship with a girlfriend like a girlfriend is going to test you she's going to she's going to push you she's going to challenge you she's going to infuriate you you know it's so much easier to wank and play video games yeah yeah yeah and then justify it by saying i'm saving myself for marriage that's what cracks me up i mean completely secular people who claim that they're saving themselves for marriage because they don't want the aggravation and the vulnerability that comes with having an intimate relationship with a woman that's also true brah i mean it's hilarious like giving me the line i'm saving myself for marriage from someone who's secular like if you've got a religious commitment i i get it but if you don't have a religious commitment then this idea that you're saving yourself for marriage is 99% likely completely fatuous you're you're frightened of intimacy and vulnerability that comes with how much you enjoy having sex with this woman and then how much power that you feel like that gives her over you also true bro also true hey uh i i drove to carmel today you've been the car oh yeah it's beautiful love coming oh my god oh my god i didn't know places like that existed bro it's like a white ghetto yeah it's so nice i couldn't believe it like i'd always heard about it this is where clinty clint eastwood lives apparently uh i wanted to move there instantly i i would totally move there but it's totally out of reach i'd imagine it's like on par with like Beverly hill was or something uh so nice oh yeah it's there's so many lovely places in california i mean but carmel monterey big sir yeah my god yeah yeah so it's about a two hour a little two hour plus drive from the city and uh man i kind of just moved there was it was it good for you so i mean did you feel like i did i did i felt like there's something to strive for now it was a little uh taste a little taste of something else i needed bro needed need a new headspace uh but i didn't i didn't run to clint sadly but it was like it was like you could just feel it like you're walking around and like everyone looked good you know it was just like high IQ was like bursting out of every corner so you know it was just such a refreshing break bro i can understand why you like la even though i find la atrocious well you're not even la you're in like a particular quadrant of la but i mean i love beautiful things i mean it's so nice to have the opportunity to travel and be around beautiful things because we're different people in different places like i'm a different person in sydney i'm a different person in carmel you're probably a different person in carmel compared to the the filth in san francisco yeah yeah i did i felt like i was uh i felt dirty bro i felt like i was bringing the stink of san francisco into uh into carmel so anyway good to travel get good to get out of the grind like good to do something different expose yourself to something different and experience yourself as a completely different person yeah but i used to think of san francisco as being the carmel you know but it's not it was it was at one point yeah so it's just a phase in how quickly things have taken a nose dive like i used to think of san francisco as like sacred ground it's holy ground and now it's been you know dispoiled well season's change uh feelings change it's been so long since i found you yet it seems like yesterday seasons change people change i'll sacrifice tomorrow just to have you here on this show today are you are you trying to talk me into giving you another carpenter's quote i just want to fear you by my side i've got to have your insights right now just being so long i found you so anyway i've been listening to lots of carpenters and like i'm like how did we lose all this bro like this is incredible incredible music and i where do we go wrong bro yeah i mean we want to create a life that creates you know room and and embodies you know carpenter's songs i mean it's sweet sweet life yeah yeah listen to only just be good and just tell me that wasn't like yeah like just the most uplifting song ever ever recorded uh and you know it was based on they saw an ad for a couple moving into a house it was an ad for a real estate company a mortgage loan company oh really yeah did they write it they weren't usually the writers of some of their top hits but did they write that particular song i i believe so um i'd have to do some research but i love watching dockers on the carpenters oh really okay yeah there are a lot of great documentaries there's even a movie a tv movie that i believe is on youtube it's definitely worth watching okay i'll look it up i'll look it up but yeah uh just you and you go back and you see like the ed Sullivan show and all that stuff and like i'm such a like boomer now but uh just what joyous what what a spirit that existed back then it just doesn't seem to exist now it's so nice so it was it was it began as a wedding theme tv commercial for krockett national bank in california and the song played over footage of a young couple getting married so richard carpenter saw the tv commercial and guess correctly that paul williams was a vocalist and then he asked whether there was a full length version of the song because the tv commercial only had two verses and uh so they they got together and created a full length song which is just gorgeous yeah he was interesting himself um uh he as an arranger uh i'm only only beginning to learn but you know they're from connecticut i was born in connecticut and like you know i can sort of feel the connecticut essence of the carpenters nonetheless even though i only live there for like less than two years like the first two years of my life but there's something about connecticut like there was just a certain uh style and class about connecticut back in those days it doesn't surprise me the different connecticut but imagine how annoying it was for richard and carin carpenter because so many interviewers would ask why why are brother and sister singing love songs to each other what's really going on here yeah i know that is that is weird it was shocking how awkward that would be like every time you're doing an interview what's what's the exact nature of your relationship with your sister are there any other brother well i guess the jackson five were brothers and sisters right but are there any other jack any other sibling bands out there uh probably but it is kind of awkward a brother and sister singing about love songs to each other yeah it is it is and they're not technically to each other but uh it's not weird but yeah there's definitely yeah if you want to be cynical if you want to take a sort of 2023 sort of four-chan look at the situation yeah you could you could you could be cynical about the whole thing but i don't know bro we've only just begun here bro we've only just begun bro all right then that's all i got okay man blessings all right all right blessings show off okay take care bye


Hi, everybody. Welcome. You may have noticed that this week we have a bit of a theme around highlighting participation and learning how to participate more effectively. So one of the things that we wanted to do this week is bring in some organizations and contributors at those organizations who have been highly effective at participating in open source projects and talk them a little bit about how they do that. How does it work out well for them? How does it work out well for their organizations? And what are their motivations? What drives them? And what makes it successful? So we have a few panelists here with us today. I'm Allison Randall. I serve on the board of directors of Open Infrastructure Foundation, as well as Open Usage Commons and the Software Freedom Conservancy. First, why don't you introduce yourselves? My name is Kansiyamman. I work full-time in upstream, especially in NOAA, API site stability, QA, then helping technical committee. I'm also involved from NEC. Hi, I'm Mohamed. I've been involved in OpenStack for quite a few years now across several different roles. And I lead a company that kind of focuses on providing infrastructure solutions with the open infra projects, mostly. OK. I'm Luis, and I'm an OpenStack operator at CERN. My experience with OpenStack started around 11 years ago. Here I am, so it's really nice to be here. Well, to get started, tell us a little bit about how you got started in open source and what motivates you to stay involved. Yeah, so I started around 10 years back. So one thing I really liked in open source, like Azure Developer also, you grow a lot. So you get a chance to work with a lot of people from different countries, different culture, and obviously the unlimited technical knowledge so you can gain, and obviously you can help the new people to gain the same. And overall, if you are contributing in open source and you are building the relationship that you can convert in your organization to help in existing business or like attracting the new business also, so that's what motivated me and that's from like I started and continuing in the open source since then. Yeah, for me, my organization, Next Source, we were kind of looking at finding a way to provide cloud. At the time, it was very early on and we're looking at this OpenStack thing and we realized that everything we were doing is exactly what OpenStack was doing at the time. So we said, okay, why don't we just join them and work together with them? And so that's what we started doing maybe 11 years ago by now. And it's a very interesting journey because once we started, we realized that it's such a fun collaborative community in general. So for me, I've never had open source exposure before OpenStack, but it's very interesting because you first of all get to get access to a lot of very knowledgeable individuals so you get to learn a lot from them and it's really fun because sometimes when you're doing something inside of a silo, it's hard to find help outside of it. Let's say if you're working on, let's say a closed source project or the internal team, you just have you and your team whereas with OpenStack, in my case, there's so many people around us and you can bring it up and somebody else would have similar issues. And then it's really interesting because you gather this knowledge and you learn more. And so it's funny, I always say this, my first contribution to open source was actually a typo fix in Nova. And back then, Nova was so untested that it was like the function argument name did not even match the variable name used in the function. Like that never had passed any tests at all. But it was like that kind of, you get that and then you kind of work with someone that helps you land it and then eventually it kind of motivates you to do more and more inside that. In my case, at the professional level with open source, I started as well when I joined CERN in 2012. Basically, it was hard to work in the adding support or deploying hyper-recomputed nodes in our cloud. And this was an amazing experience because I got that the personnel you get to collaborate with back in the day with Peter from Microsoft or Alessandro from Cloudbase, you meet them, you create new and you give your feedback, you design how the tool is going to work, et cetera. So that is very, very rewarding. And then I was lucky as well because back in the day it was when this agile project at CERN started. So it was this project where we were adopting many open source solutions like OpenStack, Puppet, Form, and CERN. So basically we were moving all the IT department from in-house software to more open source communities and being able to experience that transition how the culture of the department towards open source change and adopted all these projects is something that over time you see the benefit. And this is obviously at a personal level where I think this was useful because as they were saying you've rewarded something that you like, you contribute, you feel fulfilled in your profession and that is very positive. But then you can see the other side, the side of the organization that you trust a technology like OpenStack to be a core tool in your infrastructure. So you obviously want to make sure that that community is healthy. So you want to contribute with code, things like that. But also with doing outreach. So if it's something that works for you, you show others how they can adopt it. So they can join the community if it's something useful. Then you think for the organization is positive to leverage all the community because instead of doing all the things downstream you move all your modifications to the community and then you have this critical mass to move your things over time to new releases. So it's something that's beneficial for you. And same thing with, I don't know, debugging fixes or getting input because something that, in this transformations of the Sanity department with all these tools, something I think that it works is all the feedback that the different communities or OpenStack, Puppet people and Chef were getting while going to conference, et cetera. It's like, oh yeah, these people that are doing this here and there, maybe we should change the way we do things. So you get all this knowledge from other places and I think this is something very positive. And the last point, because I think there are so many points that we could be talking for half an hour or just about them, it's like selling some public organization. So it's, we are funded by public money. So one of our, let's say, goals or missions to give back to society. So one of the ways of giving back to society is contributing to this open source project that then can be adopted on the different countries that they are funding us. And also, part of our mission is to train engineers and professionals. So we see, we get all these people coming from the different countries to share in the case of IT with maybe a basic kind of Linux profile. And then they get to start interacting with these communities. They get skills over time. And then when they leave CERN, they leave CERN as a train engineers in these different fields. So they have more chances of getting maybe a more high-skilled job in the community with maybe knowing already some people. So this I think is very valuable. That's great. You talked about contributing upstream. So let's dive in a little more to some of the ways that your organizations participate in open source projects. And starting with the simple one, bug fixes. Kind of how do you view bug fixes contributing them upstream? And the value that your organizations get out of doing those that work upstream? So that's a really important thing. Because if you see software, you see it has been developed initially. They do the basic things and features obviously keep going. But bugs are the important part. One thing, we cannot test everything in upstream. We don't know every use case in upstream. So filing the bug is very important. And then how you fix the bug in upstream is a very small, small help, but it contributes a lot. And in my company, I have seen a few of the team like we're facing customer. And they know some of the bug, as per their use case and all. So they keep coming to our upstream team and they're saying, in my company, upstream team, we have a group of people. So they say, OK, this is the bug and we want to fix it. And sometimes we directly go and fix them. But sometimes we tell them you go and file the bug. You talk to the community. If you need help, what is the process of fixing the bug and getting the review, then we will help you. So that's something we think is really important and spread that people facing either a customer team or you're from a different team within the company, you start contributing with the bug fix and bug filing. Yeah. And I agree with that. And I think what's really interesting in doing open source is if you've worked with, let's say, a close source commercial product, it can get very frustrating if you have a more technical background, because you'll see an issue in front of you, but you're just kind of helpless in how you can fix it. You can't do anything about it. You can't change it. You can just file an issue and hope that somebody gets to it. The nice thing with open source is that when you're running to small issues or bugs, you can go in and look into it yourself. You can go in. And what's great is it's not just code, right? There's history behind the code. You can go and look into it, get blame, and see exactly why that line changed or when it changed. If you've upgraded OpenStack and saw behavior change, you can go in and see the commit and the exact time that it was done. And then you can go and look at the review and see why the discussion was done and why it was done the way that it was done. And so I think that's really powerful when you're trying to solve bugs as well. So that's a really, really important thing. And by being part of the upstream community, you get to be part of the team and maybe you see a change. Like I might, for example, John Schoen works a lot with the RBAC things. And if I see an RBAC related thing, I can reach out to him and say, hey, we were looking at this thing and we think this is a problem here and what are your thoughts are? So you kind of get this extended team that you can also talk about bugs. And I also think it's interesting at the OpenStack PTGs where the project teams gather, I've had so many scenarios where you'd be sitting in a room and someone would come in and bring up a bug and then the team would say, actually, we've designed it in that way and you need to do ABC instead. And it's really fun and interesting to see kind of that moment where people are like, wow, okay, no. I understand why you do that now. And so you get a lot of that knowledge. And yeah, so fixing bugs is easy. Filing bugs is just as important. And a lot of us, you know, when we're troubleshooting, we're going through the code and sometimes you can pinpoint exactly where the fix is. And some folks just make that change inside their environment. But I assure you the delta of extra work that you might need to do to contribute it upstream on that time that you fix that is way less than the delta of maintaining that thing forever because you just start to get, you know, you don't just edit the code once, you have to keep maintaining it. And so by pushing it up, first of all, you get two things, right? You don't have to maintain it in no sense.  Or they might say, it's nice that you caught this, but in two years, this is gonna break horribly when we do this other thing. So it's always really good to bring those things upstream because you get that feedback that you wouldn't be able to get if you're doing it in a local or kind of on your own. So really important to bring that knowledge up and kind of consider the upstream teams as like an extension of your own team and your own work. I think I couldn't add more than that. But I think the important is that in this case, because sometimes I think people that have this idea that contributing is just writing code. I think it's important that something as simple as proposing or reporting a backup screen can be valuable because yeah, a race of awareness that something is going on. Also even if sometimes you can feel frustrated because maybe you don't have the time or the experience to maybe tackle it and implement it. But maybe sometimes you can just, as it's just given feedback while it's implemented because in my case, as an operator, maybe I know have some knowledge of the implications of the bug. So this is something that happened recently with something that we reported in Manila, the Manila developers they fixed. And I was keeping a look to the review and I see the way they were implemented could affect the behavior in this case. We've saved behind the scenes some default behaviors so if your input, you didn't implement the fix but you put your small feedback there that will help this to be a more solution that yeah, it will work in the future as well. So I think this is something very valuable to do. And just to add a little bit to that, I think documentation also is super valuable, right? Like I bet everyone here in the room has a confluence or an internal wiki with a whole bunch of stuff pasted in there of like when this happens, do this, when this happens, do that. And it's almost like if you take that knowledge and kind of bring it up, you can start sharing it with other people. And then you don't have to maintain that page. You can just say when this happens, go to the documentation that we've helped, you know, push some changes into that. And how about code reviews? Do any of your organizations participate in doing code reviews for other people's patches? And how does that help you and how does that help the projects? Yeah, I think the same thing when you do the code reviews, you get involved into that discussion, right? So many people come and they tell like, okay, you might see like, okay, at first stage this code looks good, but when you have that discussion start going, then you realize, okay, there might be that use case. And what I am thinking like, okay, this code can just work fine in this requirement, but there are a lot of other things also. And that code review, that getting the discussion going on and all, that also help when you do any bug fix or feature implementation or any code thing, right? So because you get to know the complete knowledge of that surrounding of that code change impact or any like regression it's going to cause. So code review, I feel like, I mean, when I started like in Tempest and NOAA, more than that, just pushing the code, my main target was doing more and more code review. So that helps you to understand the code and more than that, like the discussion and the reasoning like why it has been done that way, why it has not been done that way. So that gives you more like knowledge and understanding how you can use it in a better way or how you can fix and implement the feature in better ways. So I feel like that's as important as like fixing any code or implementing any feature. I agree with that. And I think code review is nice and important when you're like getting told to learn early on, you get to see how people are implementing things. For example, I've learned a lot about how to, for example, introduce tests that are purposely failing in one patch and then actually implement the fix in the next patch. And I would have never kind of thought about that but being that exposure and seeing how that happens is really, really helpful. But I also feel from another sense, in a weird way, I kind of see it as some sort of karma, right? If you're gonna be pushing up code all the time, you need reviews to get your code in.  We need the back and forth because if we don't have that, we can't get things through eventually. And I think also the fact of participating or even being exposed to the workflow of reviews, et cetera, is something that at least at CERN, you see that it has become also a learning exercise because you end up learning for all these experienced people from the community. It's something that then you bring home to your organization and you see internally that this culture of reviews, how it works upstream, is something that then you can implement on all the internet workflows for all the tools in your organization. And not only that, also learning from the experienced developers in the way they structure code, they propose the different features. We have some tools internally that are very specific to CERN but you see that there's a lot of inspiration of all the experience gained contributing upstream of all the different OpenSTAD projects and I think it's valuable to get this experience from all the community and then you bring it home and you use it for all different purposes. So I think that's a good thing as well. And one important part in that is like, don't think always you have to do complete code review of that change. So it's always like, because nobody knows everything. So even like as a operator also, you don't need to validate that code with 100% guarantee. If you can just think, okay, in upgrade, this thing can cause the issue. So you just comment that, review that part only. So that is also helpful. The partial review, the something that you can verify and say, okay, this thing has been changed. So this is all good from my side. Other part I have not reviewed. So those kinds of things are always helpful to do like partial review also. Because sometimes we think, okay, this has been code done, a lot of things. I don't know these things. So let's not review that. Don't think that part. And I think the nice important thing to talk to that is that review, we're not necessarily in code review. Sometimes it's review of the thought or the idea or the process. And as maybe a non-technical contributor or mostly an operator, for example, you mentioned the Manila case. You might have, I don't know the details, but maybe you didn't actually look at the specifics of the code, but you were more thinking about the overall concept of how it's gonna affect all of this and bringing your feedback and saying, I don't think that this is gonna be good. And I think the nice thing with doing that is because of the open source communities in general, value that and what they do is you can't possibly review everything. But what happens is when you are an active reviewer, they will reach out to you and say, hey, we know that you do this and we're thinking of doing that. So could you give us your two cents about that? And so by being a more active participant, you get a chance to kind of get called out, let's say, and said, hey, can you give us some insights or thoughts about if this is a good idea or not a good idea, would you use this? Would you not use this? Things like that. That kind of leads into design discussions. So that's sort of on the spot, but do you find it valuable to participate in the advanced design discussions, like sharing your use cases, looking ahead to what the project should be over the coming years? Yeah, and that's where the important part, even the R back, I can give the example. So as a developer, we think this can be done in that way. This we can implement this way. We can give these the option in this feature, right? But like when there are a lot of use case and a lot of requirement, right? And it can be used in very different, different ways. So getting that design, like the feedback in early stages saves a lot of time. And our back example, I can give a very specific, like initially we thought of like giving you the kind of a isolation between system level access, versus project level access, versus domain level access, then reader, admin, a lot of things. And we started the implementation, right? And we had at one stage, we were saying, okay, the system admin, system level isolation, all is ready and you can use it. Then we got a setback that, no, we don't need that. They break us, so what we needed exact this particular project reader and all only. So then we realize, okay, we have to go back and change the design, change our implementation to make it more useful and not to break the operator. So that's really a good example and experience for us, like having the earlier design reviews, pack reviews, the idea reviews is very, very important. And that's where like, from the upstream community side, also I request operators to keep engaged with us, even on OpenStack Discuss Mail English, IRC, even you don't want to review the pack or something, but you still can give feedback. And that's where like we have the mix, one example is Mohammed, like he's always on IRC there and something we are doing, he keep stopping us, okay, this can break that, this is, should be done that way. And that's a really good, earlier feedback we receive from any operator and that's like as important as like we spend time and save time and it will be like more useful if operator, it is more close to operator requirement. That's how it should be and that's where the spec review is important. Yeah, I think that I kind of have like two approaches to this, I think that if you feel like you want to be involved in a design discussion, be there, the community is open, there's no registration or anything as long as you're in the event, you can open the door, come in and sit and there's no obligation or anything. But I do find that sometimes it could be very intimidating because you feel like, for example, you're sitting in like a, I don't want to call out Nova, right, but Nova is a very complex project, you come in and sit in a Nova design session and you might feel very like, we're overwhelmed. But I always think that by going and still just sitting there and just listening, that could be very, very useful because you'll just, you know, you'll start to see how the thought process goes and some of the things that the different members are paying attention to and there will be something that you can bring to the table. Like I really believe that no matter how deep you know all of the depths of Nova code or how little you just use it as just a package you install, I think there's something you can bring to the table to that discussion because nobody knows the whole thing. Everybody has different components that they can bring to the table. And so, you know, rather than just saying this is gonna be too advanced of a topic for me to be around, if the topic looks like it, you know, it could be relevant to you, just sit and listen. If you don't, if you aren't able to contribute anything, if anything, you'll get a lot of very useful information out of it. And then potentially the next time around, you know, you'll probably say, okay, well, I feel like a bit more comfortable with this subject and maybe I can jump into that. I think this is a good point because in particular these days, if you yam today into OpenStack, that at the end is a project that has been running for many years. So, yeah, you might feel overwhelmed with all these projects and history and people. So, I think it's good for people to have this mindset that when you join the project, it will be some time that you have to get to know all the bits and pieces, how things are evolving, what is the direction of the different projects, and then over time you will be confident enough to give feedback, to contribute, to find your area of comfort among all that landscape of projects. But coming also back to the question of participating in design and features. I think this back to one of the points I mentioned in the beginning. So, at the end, you have this project, you trust it to be used as a core component of your infrastructure. So, I think it makes sense that you wanted this to make your needs visible to the community. So, maybe this way, maybe you will get feedback from others, raise interest on A or B. And I think we have plenty of mechanisms to discuss all these different ideas from PTGs, IRCs, blueprints. And yeah, I think it's something positive that people contribute. For instance, at CERN, we have something like this sales between NOVA that I remember, Vermeer was participating and giving a lot of feedback and we implemented many features. It was something that at the end of the day, it allowed us to scale to the size we are running these days. So, I think this can be very positive. So, we're pretty close to the end of the time. But the last two things I want to cover, one is participating in things like contributing CI resources and developing tests and things like that. And then I'll come back around the last question around leadership roles, because I know some of you have actually served as project leaders and board members as well. So, testing, releases, QA, that sort of thing. Yeah, that's a really important part for community because they are not like the things which people directly use in their production or get the money from customer. But you have to realize like how important they are for the software development in community. So, myself like being a QA person, what I feel like if we don't do the QA in upstream, how unstable that code can be.  So, QA is very, very essential thing for open source, especially where you have like a lot of people calibrating with different ideas and all. So, you have to verify things at the central place and where like that code is being consumed in like say private cloud, public cloud and distributor and all. So, you have a lot of use case. So, you have to test with the certain like stability. Okay, these are the things passing all these set of standard tests. So, we are making sure there is like the part of a basic, I can say the stability. I will not say like it's 100% stability it gives, but definitely that part and then release is obviously the always the background heroic effort you can say releasing like, we have around more than 600, 700 deliverables in open stack, release team do the release and all. Then requirement infrastructure CI CD that is not easy to build and test. So, all these we can say the support team are the pillar for this software development. And in community like we used to have a lot of people contributing in that and helping, but nowadays things has been strong. So, we also like if more and more people help in those. So, that thing help indirectly to you only instead of like you might not be using them directly, but that's the base like of the community. I feel it's very important. Yeah. So, I think I want to add up a little bit to that as I vex those part of one of the many organizations that provide infrastructure to the open and for community. So, one of the things that maybe you could very much do is if you have a cloud and accessible and you have some extra spare resources and that's something you can look into because obviously these resources are being used to test open stack and that could be a very easy way to be able to support the community without having to let's say do too much man hours or something like that. Essentially, the team just needs the username and a password and an endpoint and they can make use of that with Zool and everything. So, perhaps that could be a way that you can think of contributing by just providing some cloud resources for all the QA that Gansham just talked about to work on. I think it will be important to stress the point that I think all these infrastructure or what is there in place to do QA, to do testing. I think it's part of the success of the project because I don't know. I remember at the beginning when we were, when I joined CERN and we were participating back in the day in all these Fedora open stack test days and you were testing their releases, et cetera and how things have improved over time. I think it's thanks to all these infrastructure that is there to do this and so on. And also a little bit connected to this, it's like contributing, it's also contributing to the project but also from operators and many other people the fact is that you want also to run this product in production and running in production implies many other things that you can contribute there as well like packaging or testing of these deployments for the different distributors. So I think this opens many areas that people can feel welcome to contribute or more comfortable contributing when they are running open stack in production. So last one, leadership roles. It's kind of keeping the community functioning and the development moving forward also involves a lot of things that aren't necessarily development. So what motivated you to serve on the TC and on the board? Yeah, initially like honestly saying when I was doing all this coding and development I hated all these leadership roles and I was like why we require that, right? But when like you manage that large community and like the diversity and cultural thing and you need this big community to go into the same direction and most important the transparency and all these like you hear everyone voice. So for all these things you need a leadership, good leadership who provide the platform for everyone who makes sure like things are going in right direction, right? Because when it comes to the culture, different culture working together you need some kind of a really good standards and the leadership also like where we make sure things are working fine and other part leadership I think define the process because as an individual you can do like lot of good thing at certain level, group you can do lot of good thing at certain level but when it comes to the large community and all so it has to be driven by the process and process with like transparent process, openness because we are in open community. So all these process you have to define the process, make sure process are running fine in a openness and transparent way so that leadership is very, very important and that's where I also started like if I can help in leadership because that is as important as like pushing a bug fix or code or a review. And from like TC and also like from board I feel like another important aspect is that you get connect the communities developer all with the high level of strategical discussion like where the community need is. So you understand that and you try to fill that gap at leadership level in term of the like process defining or technical help or like strategic discussing at the board level and see how things can go on but I feel like this is like the main important part for this openness of the community. We need. I agree. I think you're making really good points and I pretty much echo most of that but what I wanna share is like a small story of how I got started with the leadership side of things. Actually, it was Emilien Mackey who used to be on the TC and he had reached out one day on a message and said, hey, the TC is discussing a topic that might be interesting to you as an operator. And to be honest, I'd really never even worked or ever talked to the TC before. So I engaged in that conversation and I was like, this is an interesting technical discussion to be around. I started attending the weekly meetings or the biweekly meetings at the time that were being held and then as I started attending that I was like, okay, I start to see it understand the point of this and then slowly but surely I made my way into the TC and then I eventually had support with Doug Hellman who helped me into getting to be the chair of the TC as well. So the thing is, I wanna, I hope I can be the Emilien for some of the people here to ask and say, just show up, sit in the meeting, look at what's going on and you might find that there's some interest in there for you to participate in that conversation and eventually just being around enough will kind of motivate you to start and saying, well, I wanna take a more active role in this exact thing. I might talk to you. There you go. I haven't had a management role in the inaugural stack yet but from people at CERN like team that was in the foundation board from El Miro that was as well and technical user committee. I think the stress the part that Gantzian was mentioning of, there is a lot about the process of how it's all works together and being there, I think it helps to oil that process and yeah, reduce the frictions and move towards this openness that he was mentioning. And I think that is something that should be a core value of the project. I think we're about out of time. It's gonna be lunch break. Thank you to our panelists and for all your organizations due for open source. We'd like to hear your story too. There's a link up there. We're gathering those stories to kind of inform and help teach other organizations the value of participation and what they can get out of it. So thank you all for coming. Thank you for hosting. Okay, thank you guys.


Hi guys, I just got out of the shower and I'm moisturized. I have like a few hormonal zits that I'm going to cover up, so if you can see here and here, they hurt so bad, but I honestly haven't been breaking out recently at all, but I don't get my period because of my birth control, but when I'm supposed to get it, like I get those guys. Yeah, I'm going to try to cover them up and then I'll be right back. Here's the hiccups. So I'm going to be doing a little day in the life vlog today. I want to film a little try on haul with nasty gal for you guys and I'm also going to get another tattoo. Sorry mom if you're watching this, but I thought it would be a good little day to vlog.  Just so you know, everything's going to be linked below to the nasty gal site, so definitely go check out these styles. I love them. This is so me. I'm so obsessed with it. First of all, I love denim jackets. I've wanted one with tassels for so long and it's not too crazy. It's not like, oh, this is costuming. I literally can't wear this. It would be so cute to wear to a bar or literally whatever. It's perfect. I love this. It's really fun and comfy. I'm a big fan of t-shirt dresses and I feel like that's a similar vibe. This corduroy and all these pastel colors, it's so fun and cute. It's really cute. It's really low. It drops really low, but I'm kind of into it. Yeah, I'm super into this. This would be so cute with white jeans. I think I'm going to put those on right now to show you guys. Love. These jeans are also from nasty gal and they have this really cool split in them. I'm a huge fan of cardigans in general just because I feel like you can kind of wear them off the shoulder a little bit and obviously over dresses and over other t-shirts. This is so cute and soft and it's like a little oversized, which I love. So cute. And lastly, this really cute little white biker short t-shirt set. I always walk around my apartment naked and there's just like these huge windows. So I think I'm just going to throw on something like cozy right now and I'm going to eat something and I'm going to do some beauty counter stuff and I have to do some, not schoolwork yet but school is starting soon.  I think I'm going to put on short pants because I filmed a video about the new puppy. They hit her, she didn't get, she sleeps so much. I made a video about her and my other dog, Belu, they're both newfoundlands and I think it'll be up before this but I haven't uploaded it quite yet. So I made muffins last night. They're pretty good, not going to lie. Not going to lie, I'm kind of a baking legend. So these are them. They're banana, banana, chocolate chip muffins. They're healthy, kind of they're like sweetened with maple syrup and I use coconut oil. You can use almond flour if you want but I don't. I'm obsessed with baking muffins at the beginning of the week and then I'll have them for breakfast. I'm going to start with the snack. I look like a full blown shadow right now so yeah I'm going to sit down and go on the computer for a little bit and then I live in Toronto now but I still have absolutely no idea where anything is. So the tattoo appointment is in Markham. I'm like where is that? I don't know but it's like far away so and I don't have my car. I just want to quickly show you guys my tattoos slash literally so obsessed with it. It's insane. The artist is so talented. It literally looks like it was done by a machine. So cool. So that's that one. I just said lover right here. So good. So I think I have to wash them off with mild soap and water and then let them dry. It's insane and so talented. I need to put on my bracelets. Also does anyone else who love bracelet mind? He keeps falling off. Like I need to go get it tightened but like with all my bracelets on it will look so sick. I'm going to link her Instagram below. Cappy and I are last minute going to go out to dinner to get oysters I have to do. Miss laundry too. I'm going to do my hair and makeup or like put a little bit more over the little bit that I have on and I'll be back. My makeup. I'm just wearing this little sweater and these like super baggy jeans are my favorite.  It's like Sunday and we're just going to get oysters. No we do. Have towels. Wait that's that. Yeah this is the makeup. What do you think of my makeup look for tonight? Very neutral. James Bond. Are you a self-proclaimed legend?  You look like the heat miser.  That's a rump. Did you know that we went to STK last Sunday too? Should we do STK Sundays? Oh that's absolutely good. Make it a tradition. That's what I kind of said. Are you going to buy me roses again? Just 500 bucks every Sunday. Okay. And then 100 bucks for roses every every Sunday. Yup. 600 bucks every Sunday. This literally turns me on so much. Babe babe babe babe babe babe babe. How you doing sir? Another time? Yes sir. There you go man. Which color do you like? All red or the fellas one? These are so pretty. 100 bucks for that. Thank you. Thank you. Not all of them?