Got it. I'd like to welcome everyone to the planning commission meeting What sure time six oh four six oh four, okay And before we get started I would like to welcome Ken Johnson new town planner first meeting with us. Thank you We have a couple we have a sketch plan continued sketch plan some preliminary plan and And then we've got some other business to describe at the end So we have an amend amendments to the agenda under the sketch plan. They've added added to the to the Agenda is agent for the landowner Alan French Item three under the preliminary plan It is at the end of that description is and scenic resource protection overlay srpo zones and at the end of the business we've a brief discussion on bylaw Modernization grant project and then Catherine Sonic will give us an update on town charter discussion So with that before we open the floor for public hearing or public comments I would like anyone who's going to be participating either in person or online to please Swear that any testimony you present this evening will truthful to the best of your abilities. You're gonna say a word. Please just say yes Online would be good to hear you if we've got people on we don't have anybody on nobody on just commissioners Yeah, and then just a reminder for their name when they talk, okay name and address So, thank you Sharon when you do speak this evening, please just Let us know your name before you begin so that Sharon can make that part of the minutes. We have on virtual this evening we have commissioners mangan Raphael is Tom or Josh both of them are on so furlough and Mr. Knox With Davis Schumacher and brusso in the room so we have full slate this evening So first item we have is public comment That is an opportunity for anyone to give us comments on items that are not on the agenda Since we don't have any consent agenda items this evening Asking if there are any I would open the floor seeing none Anything online Let's move on while it's commissioners online so First item on a on the agenda tonight is a sketch plan. This is a continued public hearing from September 8th. This is a Convention this is a proposal for a conventional nine-unit residential subdivision located at 60 kernel page road Catherine Would you like to give us an overview on this? I will yeah, I will give a quick little run through So just a little reminder that you first heard this application at sketch plan in September And then you followed up with a site visit after that and Your concerns at the time where it was mainly about the layout and wondering if there could be a better layout that would maybe cluster have less road and I think that was mainly it so after the Actually at the site visit. We did see an alternative proposal And that was is what was submitted for this sketch plan So the access instead of being off of Colonel Page Road is now on Chapin Road And the lots are clustered a bit more around That that road there the other changes that we see Is that the stormwater for the majority is being collected in the cul-de-sac on the middle as Suggested by public works at that the first sketch plan hearing um We also See that they have changed instead of doing on-site wells to hook up to the town water Now which has already actually been Reviewed and the town has the ability to serve this development. So that is good There's questions still about the boundaries of the flood hazard area the applicant has stated that what is shown On the maps is incorrect. And so they intend on trying to get that boundary adjusted And that is through a a Loma process with FEMA So a letter of map amendment is what Loma stands for So as far as any Outstanding issues, you know, we this is sketch So there's not a lot of technical work that's done But so we will see much more of that at the next phase of review. So they'll continue to work on roadway design water waste water storm water Now that that flood flood hazard area question as well So as far as that the staff notes go there are a couple corrections that I just wanted to point out So I think the first one that's a typo that Supposed to be it's like let's see three line 336 it's not greased it should be grassed roadway swim And This one actually shows up. I think this other one two places In the public works comments on page On page seven, but it's line 253 it describes it as a Minimum length requirement of 900 feet for the road should be a maximum So that that was just a typo by the public works, but it also got carried through to a condition On line 399. So we should change that minimum to maximum. Oh the one along with the greased road It's lived right down a little make it a little a little longer Yeah, so I think that's all I wanted to point out missioners any questions for staff at this point Yes, does that mean we're not getting a thousand foot greased road? Okay, otherwise I'm good Okay Anybody else Okay, John comments questions. Yes, John Stuart just to add to what Catherine's outlined the plan Has been updated the road is? has indicated Takes off from Chapin Road. It was shortened from what was represented at the September 28th site visit So now it's about 565 feet to the beginning of the cul-de-sac which is a One-way road around the cul-de-sac and it's about 150 feet in diameter We have the detention base and as much and the wetlands Delineation was completed after the site visit and has now been confirmed by a and r So what you see on the plan now is what? That's the final configuration of wetlands and setbacks We have added building envelopes the LOMR which is a revision as opposed to an amendment is expected on the 16th of December, so Just a short while We added a trail along the southern property line to connect with the previously shown Multi-purpose trail which sort of parallels Alderbrook so that That was added subsequent to our site visit Municipal water now shown and basically that's the That sums up the changes that have been made to what you see on the plan before you tonight Excellent. Thank you commissioners questions for the applicant Josh. I'm good. Thank you John I Do not have any questions. Thank you. Um, I'm also David I'm good. Thank you Patty is the I know on your old map the proposed stormwater retention pond was way up In the in the corner did we scrap that and just put it in the middle of the cul-de-sac? That's correct. Okay, John No, I'm good, and I'm good as well So at this point the public hearing is open Sharon you mentioned somebody somebody just signed on I we need a name and you need to Provide the oath to them if they're gonna so whoever just joined us You could state your name for the record, please You'll need to unmute yourself. Oh I think they're on the phone Sam's on the SM So if somebody dialed in connected in from their cell phone You could please identify yourself for the meeting. Hey, this is awkward I'm curious since we can't identify them. Do we disconnect them? Well, they'll disconnect themselves. I'm sure they can listen, but excuse me if they're looking to speak to this application. I The only alternative I would think is to give them my work cell phone number And they can maybe call in on that and put them on a speakerphone We need to have their name to have so they can be party to the applications, correct, correct All right, well, we'll just keep that in mind moving forward So this public hearing is still open so at this point I would look to anyone in the audience if you want to ask any questions about this application as it's been presented this evening This is the time in the back, sir There's a mic, so that's why it's better pickup. Oh, okay Your name again, sir, Paul Davis I was able to take a look at the new plan. Um, I much prefer that the open space is conglomerated and together on the Southside my question is what protections are in place to Keep that section from either a being further developed or be broken off into Different property like turn into a different property and then further developed From there anyone knows what what's what can stop what is in place to stop that from happening Don't know that we're actually stopping this stage. I mean this is a residential subdivision zoning regulations are going to require Size for lots of water, you know If they still have density if they haven't maxed out their density with this proposal Excuse me and and it allows for additional water sewer. They could come back for an amendment This is a conventional. It is convention. So there's no required open space, right? So and if our regulations change going forward, yeah, that might also allow for further development of a parcel So in this particular circumstance, we're not this this isn't the development that's being restrictive It's not like it's not like oh here it is and that's how it stays like you can come back and request for more to the To the limits of the of the zoning regulations and the environmental regulations that are in place at any point in time So I don't think you're gonna this isn't something that necessarily is fixed in stone. Yeah It would have to come back to the planning commission No Or for further subdivision, but it and it couldn't be subdivided with if it didn't meet the subdivision regulations of the town at the time Well, it does concern me because you end up you would end up in that case with an even More dense situation. I don't I don't know all the ins and outs of You know what an area of that size could be zoned for and what it could handle But if it's in the last time, I just don't want this place to look like You know a dense suburb when it's supposed to be a You know, it's a it's a scenic resource That's to have an open look to it Of course, I'm maybe jumping ahead of myself, but that's just my concern John So we don't have anything specific about that area, but I would note that there are Wetlands and buffers in that area, which severely respect the available Area for any development, which I don't envision because it's You know this this has been planned to fit the needs and wishes of the applicant and There was nothing hidden here This is what we feel the area can support and what will protect resources And so for something else to come along it would be Well, I just don't think that's something that you can anticipate So I don't know that you're gonna get the direct answer the absolute answer that you might be looking for That's pretty good. I Mean, it's it's the regulations that are in place. It's the ecological limitations that are in place. Yeah Okay Somebody else is currently signing Trying to sign on it says joining, but I'm gonna come in yet Okay. Thank you. I'm done. Thank you I Met 75 Chapin which is across the road from the proposed development Surprisingly Paul and I haven't talked but that was I really appreciate all the work that's gone into this thus far but I had the sense that Part of the way that it was structured was out of a sensitivity to the scenic corridor and that that remaining land was addressing our respect for the scenic corridor and the overlay and That this proposal was a reflection of our concerns about that corridor and that now to hear that Is there's considerable amount of road frontage on that remaining land and if all of a sudden that's just fair game Why are we? Pretending that we're addressing the scenic overlay when in fact we're potentially not by just Disrespecting the future of that open land when working is kind of telling the developer We appreciate his keeping that land open, but on the other side of the hand we're saying but We acknowledge that it could be developed So I think we're kind of dancing around a little bit patting ourselves on the back about How we're respecting the scenic corridor when in fact Maybe we're not if it was a traditional development and the roads were just along the frontage 200 feet 200 feet you would have that remaining land for a wildlife and scenic corridor and recreation and You wouldn't have a big cul-de-sac in the middle of a meadow and you could still have nine lots so I Think we have to think I would hope that we would think harder about What happens to that remaining land and if it's it can't be kept open? Not that we're trying to keep it open, but we'd like to we were acknowledging that we would like to see it remain open and But if we can't because it's just not a thing Why not just put them along the road and then that that land behind there does remain open until a future road comes in? Not that might happen Probably will have maybe not in our lifetimes, but for now We'd have the scenic corridor without even having to do anything about it And I'm curious if the commission has any thoughts on that Thank you to start with we do have to we do have to deal with the application that's in front of us So, you know that that is that is That is our first That's what we're working off from we have the application that's in front of us We work to the best we can with that application And if an applicant comes in and they've got a proposal that fit with the Regulations that are in place we have to give it due considerations and I Do feel that they've worked with us and heard us made changes that were significant and Have left us a large amount of open space. We walked the parcel. We had a Penet farmer come through and talk about what was usable versus not usable We see we saw where the Visual you know the visual impact was at the distance and so forth. So, you know, I think a lot of these elements were all looked at Go have I guess I have to be personal on this one I find it a little it's a little It takes us off off base a little bit when we ask if we're if we're perfect protecting a parcel from ever having future development This is a normal subdivision. This isn't a PUD or a conservation subdivision or a conservation We're not we're you know, that was never a proposal So It's hard to get up here and say we're gonna block anybody from doing anything in the future if it's their land if it fits within the Requirements and the regulations that are in place in the town in the community And as we're always changing we're always modifying the regulations to to provide greater protections or for both the Landowners and the community. So it's it's a balancing act So anyways, I'm gonna bounce this off to the rest of the Commission Or put my foot completely in my mouth Anybody else anything you want to add I just wanted to add that I Looked into this extensively. I was one of the people that came to your site When we all walk the property and I believe as planning commissioners I'll just speak for myself that we really do take the town plan As an oversight as a As a You know a background we make sure to take that into consideration. I really Want to pass on to the public. There's this site called bio finder that plots out where the wetlands are Where the steep slopes are I'm very much into the environment personally as a as just a person up here Irresponsible of being a planning commission member and I think that this site after he changed Everything and condensed it and put everything into this corner away from the wetlands away from You know where the sediment can can drain down and the fact that Even even where the storm water retention pond is I'm much happier With the changes and the fact that You're condensing everything because that's how we're going to preserve our scenic overlay district and to me That's from the bottom of my heart very important to me personally So I just want to throw that that it's a much better plan than the first time around Me you online folks David John Josh Nothing for me All right, is anyone else in the audience like to offer commentary then Yeah, please You could come up to the table. It'd be great. I'm Julie Albright and I live 75 Chapin Road and We did kind of from the other meeting have the understanding that the there'd be that open area And I like to balance out things and now it sounds like that's not highly likely that could change and This we appreciate everything the boards do But The feeling is that I think we should really stop to consider what we need to preserve Because if you don't think about it now, it's too late My history has been Back 1840 my family came to Vermont My great-grandfather's farm is where the strike zone is now My parents I grew up in Susie Wilson Road My dad wanted to give each kid an acre He gave his son an acre and by the time the circle friend to highway came through his land was condemned My dad's land was condemned. So I ended up on Chapin Road Where I live used to be a field it did but People come to With the Essex is really exploding it is and There is just this little strip of Chapin Road and Colonel Page There's just a little area that still kind of holds Something of what it used to be because of the orchard. It's still dirt And I just think with the scenic corridor idea There could be areas that it really beneficial to That really do do well with being developed, you know But I wonder what you might want to preserve going forward is what I'm when I'm suggesting as As the town grows Yeah, that's all I want to say I guess thank you John I'm looking I've got the plan up right now, but I don't know if we can put if you guys can put it up. Yeah But it kind of looks like with bringing that Road shorter, I mean, I'm looking at the shaded area and it looks like it Is equal to or if not larger than the other than it was in the first round it The road is shorter and the open space Okay, lot five is 15.8 acres and we have a very small part of that is the building envelope the rest of it is open land and contains the majority of the plan trails that will cross this property so coupled with the fact that like I indicated previously the cross hatched area has Significant limitations for development because of wetlands and buffers and As the intention of this plan to preserve that the majority of block five was as open land Not looking at Coming in here with another application, but you've also in this plan also Preserves the entire length of Colonel Page Road. There's no intrusion on Colonel Page Road Yes, there's no paving requirements on Colonel Page with this plant. That's correct That's that's the primary reason why the Chapin Road entrance so was Put or redesigned So that we wouldn't have to affect the you know the gravel surface on Chapin Road Quite frankly this that the amount of work that's gone in the preparation has probably gone about 500% more than we normally do in sketch plan So I appreciate the effort and the work that the applicant did that the staff did and that Members of the community did to look at this and help guide this it usually we get into this level of detail We get into the preliminary and final so I mean this is this has been a lot of a lot of back and forth a lot of review Is anyone else like to offer any comment on this before I close the public hearing? Yes, sir in the back Mr. Dave this you know, I don't I don't have like a new version of the written plan or anything But I don't know if it could be written This is suggestion I guess that it could be written in the plan that the intention is to maintain it that way I know it's it may not be like Set in stone, but it could be something that in the way future if somebody proposed something else With the open space that we could say well it says here in any original development plan that the intention was To keep it open for the scenic resource and for environmental purposes It doesn't sound like you intend to develop it, but Future holds that it might be like a little little extra On Preservation that makes sense. That's a suggestion. It's a good. It's a good discussion point going into the next round Thank you any others Let's make a comment to the public. I think do you mind if I stand on it? I prefer that I sit down next to the mic for the recording like do the mic I think you know Judging what time is you know in a hundred years most people might be around here. So Things will change a million times, you know from this used to be a police station here How much of land has already been developed and people more focus on What the intent at the moment is versus? Who has the possession of it and what kind of you know people are occupying the land at the moment? Passing that on into the next generation is what matters. So again in a hundred years Nobody's gonna care from here from this, you know Even who does anything what with what land but it it's important to acknowledge the person that Is the Representative of the land You know what the intent is over at the moment because rules as we know are all gonna change over time the regulations are gonna change Nothing there's nothing that's going to be able to protect anything from this ever being developed after we've gone Somebody's eventually gonna build those all this down and build something completely new So what's most important is to focus on the kind of character of people that are occupying and who our neighbors are So once you know who your neighbors are you'll know how everything else is gonna proceed from that point on because Whoever takes over these lots and everything down in the future It's gonna matter who those people are so it's important that people's characters align in order for our Kind of our greater intention to to perceive in this so it's To kind of put everybody at ease even when we purchased this we way overpaid for the land so it would never make sense to Intention never to make money with it. So the tent was to preserve and to bring good people together So like because we love the assets and we love being part of the community our whole intention was to Create this so we can bring these people and making part of this community So the tension is not to make money with it. So the that is literally everything that we say about preserving everybody that's moving in That is the intent is that that we preserve that we get to keep it open that we care that we made the adjustment that we made based on people's, you know opinions, you know on everything like Everybody cares everybody's gonna be living here. Everybody cares. So everybody is It you don't need rules and regulations to speak to anybody and I can test for everybody that's gonna be living here to ask or to Preserve anything and it's as simple as a conversation. You don't need any rules and regulations on anybody that To to preserve what's going on here. It's a very simple conversation with the Wonderful people that will be living there and it's considered a done deal You know at as most of the deals that we have done in Essex, you know, so I want everybody to rest assured that We do care about people's opinions irrelevant of the rules and regulations. So Okay with that I Would take a motion to close a public hearing and move we close the public hearing second Move by shoe seconded by Josh all those in favor Patty did you vote or no, I did I did not hear Well, we're getting there. We're not a voting. This is this is the public hearing Commissioners at this point what what follow-up questions comments or concerns do you have? Patty we'll start with you. I just wanted to say that that Act 171 there are starting to be laws and Acts coming from high up down to all of the planning commissions in Vermont There is a travel corridor for deer. I have it all mapped out Crossing values where this little neighborhood is I even mapped out where the deer cross Where the mountains are the view is not obstructed on these are things even a hundred years from now I believe you know our grandchildren. I want them to have personally. Okay, so I'm very interested in Act 171 and that is Preserving in Vermont instead of having 14,000 acres clear-cutted between now and per year That's how much land is clear-cutted per year We want to stop that and slow it down and condense neighborhoods like you did your plan is a great example Personally what for what I'm looking for Personally, that's me speaking so and you're not in the way of the travel corridors. The deer can still roam Good job. Thank you David I've got no concerns what I would say it is because of where we're at in this You know the applicant has heard the public comment about Being willing to possibly put some restrictions on future development They can take that away and take it under consideration but we've issued no waivers and and It's not a PUD so I don't see any reason to spend too much more time on that. Okay I would do David Same Shoe, you know Josh Ditto same ditto. Hey, so we've got we've got a full slate of dittos With one Ditto ditto not dodo's ditto's On any given night that can flip-flop Is anyone Prepared to offer a motion at this point remembering that this is sketch So we've we've put a lot of effort into this as a sketch tonight Just point out one thing that I should have at the beginning You've lost the opportunity. It's passed me by so According to our regulations at sketch plan, you're supposed to approve a preliminary phasing Allocation it'll be fully approved at the final plan review. So if that's just it's Something I want to make sure that's that you're aware of and so that that's covered in Section three of the staff notes And we have enough capacity to For this so it would be Five units in one year and then they're remaining In this in a following here So basically we're looking for a proposal a maybe a motion to approve as written with the Typographical memos that you noted earlier Yes, so moved I'm looking for a second. I'll second To get you got it for I wrote one quick clarifying question Yes, Catherine. Is that the phasing allocation that the applicant asked for I? Don't think so So I I mean we have the capacity to do all of this in 2023 so I would I'd just be interested in knowing what the applicants Yeah, the zoning doesn't allow it all to be done it outside of the sewer courts only five per year We're out. That's right. Okay. Yeah, and I would if there's any discussion about that since it's a sketch That that sort of fine-tuning could be done If there's anything that needs to be tweaked or it could be tweaked or wavered, right? Yep And and just a reminder not to deal with this application, but that's on your proposed changes about the phasing It needs some So motion seconded any further discussion David you okay with leaving it as is. Yeah. Yeah, thanks any further discussion All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. All right Motion carries seven zero. Thank you. Thank you Next on our docket is a preliminary plan.  We'll start to go quiet from it shift around Anything so people can see what I think it'd be good ideas if they have to say we'll be there you'll be you up This is where it's we have a reference point. Yep. I don't want to pick up too much on this matter. I'll give it all paper I'm watching you Patty I Start having to snuggle up to Just the heads up mr. Chair, it looks like we have I don't know we lost that phone, but we got a new New somebody jumped on called GLA Gala Okay Do they need to be admitted? No, I think they're in okay Somebody was trying to get in somebody is in somebody is in So whoever is online with the Sign on name of gala if you could identify yourself for the secretary, please that person was on earlier and got off Okay, and I see the phone number is gone. So I don't know if it's the same person All right Well, let's let's rock and roll that and just be aware whoever Gala is we Won't be able to speak until we have you identified and we And a minister of the oath and if you are trying to talk you have you're muted. So unmute Okay, all right So let's move on now preliminary plan public hearing This is a proposal for an eight-unit five lot PUD are at 137 towers road staff All right So we have five new lots proposed in a total of eight units There's one existing a single-family home and there are an additional three single-family homes proposed at the end of a shared driveway Which that was a actually that shared driveway was approved at your sketch plan hearing And then there are four duplexes that are located at the end of the cul-de-sac of a new private road and the private road is in the location of the existing drawing for the Is there now? There is Very little in the way of design that has changed since your sketch plan hearing when you saw this Definitely a lots more detail went into it with the engineering plans There's a whole set of those included like 20 23 pages worth of plans here. So there's a lot lot of work that was done Applicant is proposing on-site water as well as on-site septic there are in between The duplex the two duplexes there's some amenities for for them as well as at the end of the Private driveway where their turnaround is there's also some outdoor amenities and as well as a walking path that that goes past a Down the road connecting the existing unit At Street trees, I just wanted to point out they're Hoping to take advantage of much of the existing vegetation as opposed to providing Regular street trees. There is some there are some plantings that are proposed more so in front of lots one through three Which are the new single-family homes? Sketch plan there was discussion about providing an easement along towers road for a multi-use path That is not shown on the plans. So it's wanted to bring that to your attention for discussion point also at sketch there was discussion about Potential sidewalk along the private road From what I can read in the minutes. It seemed like you were lukewarm to that idea, but there wasn't really a final decision made on that Public works is fine with the roadway design They, you know, have typical comments about just wanting to see a few more details with stormwater They still have concern about the Exist the capacity for the wells in the area because of previous Problems the applicant has stated that they're from what they the research They've done looking at a and our data that they don't have any concerns at the end of the day It's the state that will be approving this anyway. It is not the town the town Public works, I guess in particular doesn't want to have to bail them out if those wells should fail So they really want to feel more comfortable that that there are no issues And so they have a comment and a condition that's been included that asking for more From for a letter from their engineer stating that I'll have to review the and our data that There is no reported issues or concerns with the well future wells and their yields Let's see so another comment at sketch plan was concerning the Buffer between the neighboring property, which is the Johnson's property and where the duplexes are and If there was enough there to shield between the two properties Applicant has stated that they feel that there is or is existing vegetation there As well as they've made sure that they've shifted the houses further further up. So that might be something you will also So it at final plan we'll just need to see more details on their shared land any sort of shared amenities That would include well and wells and wastewater systems and open space Which is typical that we would see that sort of information at final and not not at this point That that is already listed as a condition of approval As well as there are several other conditions too But I think those those are all pretty typical of what you would expect aside from what I pointed out with what Public works would like to see with the wells Questions for Catherine. Yeah So I you said the wastewater stuff you're gonna wait till final But I I just was trying to get a visual of where the wastewater disposal system is and over on the right-hand side on C201 map this has proposed community wastewater Disposal system so would all this stuff from the wells go there That would if that's waste water Talking about so the septic you you hope that it wouldn't go there. Yeah No, okay I just I just didn't know because I have a again a bio finder map with wetlands You know that was a concern. Yeah mine Yeah, so there are wetlands on the site which I didn't point out that was discussed it Sketch and the development really is outside of the wetland area. So that that includes the water Okay, I find the waste water at least the wastewater I'm trying to remember where the wells are and the only other question. Um, is the center of that round roundabout on my map. Is that a catch basin too like? There were three that were listed but Like the last one we just right is that the same type of thing? I don't believe so. Okay. It is it is Yeah From Trudell consulting engineers So right in the middle of the cul-de-sac is a depressed green area with a with a storm catch basin collecting stormwater I'm just trying to get everything on one map because there were eight of them and I was trying to put everything Yeah, good luck with that. No There's a lot going on. Thank you dad for answering it. Yeah, thank you Any other commissioners with questions for Catherine hearing none turn it over to you Doug Okay, Catherine did a great job. I don't have to read all these notes to you. Save time Let's see. I'll just hit some of the highlights I think similar or maybe even to a greater extent than the last applicant As most you know that we're here, you know, we went through three sketch plan hearings We had a site visit we have some former staff that went out to the site walked it So this has been a real evolution. We started out with very conventional looking lots And we've ended up with these two bustered PRD type layouts I think we're well received by previous staff and hopefully you folks as well We're conserving two-thirds of this property will be will be locked by which is all open space Which is most all of the eastern half or more than half obviously of the property Compasses a large open meadow wetland Down all the way down to to the brook What else? You know, I think there was some concern not concern but Interest in you know, how this is a PRD versus What is the benefit? What can we make and provide to make it more of a community feel? so I Think Catherine you can go to the landscape plan shows the amenities LA01 so up at the north end as Catherine said we've got a Large stormwater basin as sort of the focal point for those three single family lots whether we like it or not There's a about a 400 foot walking path that runs along the east side of that stormwater pond. We've done extensive Landscaping along the walking path and the pond just to give some visual interest for those using it All native species a little bit of everything lots of dogwood and other plants that will really Birds Habitat and bird vegetation and such It's a very far end at the turnaround. We've got Some large benches proposed that are detailed on the next sheet some shade trees and such and there's a Incredible view of Mount Mansfield looking looking off to the east from that location. So that Rendering up in the upper left is sort of what we have in mind for an amenity down there for the for the folks in the neighborhood to Hang out on those benches and watch the mountains and such and going down back one Catherine if you would but the To duplex buildings, so there's a total of four units down there We've got a 20 by 20 foot patio with a 10 by 20 pergola with picnic tables underneath that Significant amount of raised bed gardens that could be built and Again a lot of plantings mortar grass grasses and such shrubs around the patio area for those folks to utilize Trying to trying to develop a community sense with those amenities It's part of this plus have a diversity of housing with the with the duplexes as opposed to Standard single family that you see in that area It's Catherine said a lot of details Which unless I'm not going to go through unless you have a specific question on wastewater for instance As we talked about there's a large community system way out to the west. There's a there's a ridge of gravel soil that we're utilizing Which is great for sewage disposal the rest of the site heavier soils not not so good Individual wells on the lots are proposed and stormwater systems that Make up basically along all these Roadways and driveways. They'll be grass line swales They convey water in some points to either catch basins or culverts ultimately All of the stormwater will end up in two large stormwater wetland created Wetlands action And made wetlands if you will The I know Catherine alerted me this afternoon to the Johnson's having a few questions and concerns about drainage After maybe you could go to sheet C2o To please The fourth one and fourth or fifth sheet in so the Johnson's are Right at the entry to the right of the road No back one maybe back one or two sheets Yep, now if you just scroll up easier said than done Yep, there's a little delay on this sometimes. Yeah, that's good. So it's hard to see but The there's an existing driveway Underneath what is shown as the as the proposed new road But that's being built to town road standards up to the cul-de-sac meaning it's gonna be paved road 24 feet wide four-foot shoulders drainage swales So the Johnson's and concern was you know possible runoff from this property and these improvements onto their property, which is the house that you see there So I just wanted to point out that Again, the new road will have deep Swales to intercept the water coming coming from the West downhill And also to pick up the water coming off the new road, obviously There's a set of two catch basins Sort of halfway down the road which will collect the water from the Swales and ditches and they them to another catch basin in the middle of the cul-de-sac and then Ultimately discharge in a stone line swale that ends up at the east of the lower duplex. So that's one of our Stormwater ponds down there So I think you know will have Any opportunities to prevent water from entering the Johnson property They also had a concern You can see a row of trees on the right side of the Proposed road and then along the back of the Johnson property. Those are large mature white pines That are pretty much on the property line their concern was potential impacts to the roots from the work the Roadway swale on the right-hand side of the road will be the new swale will be about 15 feet from the property line We've basically taken that new road and offset it as far as we can to the left or away from the Johnson property However, we're pinched with wetlands on that side of the road So we're trying to balance between what the wetland folks will allow us to impact and And to get that road over away from the Johnson's to protect the trees. So I think with that 15 feet You may encounter some roots, but I don't think we can do any better as far as that road location goes I think I will Oh, I'm gonna take a few minutes Like and then go over use staff report use page eight lines 250 to 252 pursuant to the zoning regulation Table 2.2, which is the scenic resource section Overlay the applicant shall include building elevations for all new structures and building envelopes for all lots in the final plan submission The Gudamas won't be building houses. They're not contractors. So Especially the three single-family homes. We have no way of knowing what those buildings will look will look like And they'll just sell them as lots like any other single-family lot The duplexes we do have likenesses and renderings of what we think that may look like The applicants found a nice Duplex Design and Colchester and that's the footprint that you see there And like I said, we have photos of that that we could provide at final But like I said, I'm not sure how we can provide building elevations for the single-family lots at this point. I don't know Who or what they're going to build on those lots Also, the single-family lots are so far away from towers road. You'll never see them from any location really along any of the roadways This duplex you may see as you go down towers road depending on the Time of year and tree cover So this we'd asked for a leniency on that requirement We're good with the multi-use path easement along towers road I don't really recall the discussion of the sidewalk along this new road. I think We don't think it's justified. There's no sidewalks on towers road or Papin or old stage or any surrounding roads. So I'm not Be sort of a sidewalk to know where really These roads are like I said, 24 feet to the cul-de-sac and then 20 feet. So they're plenty wide Uh, the amount of people that will be there. I think it's it'll be safe Revolves to walk along the edge of the road and still not worry about traffic. So it would be our So along those lines going down to the conditions of approval I have some suggested changes for say condition 3a It reads building elevations for all new structures I would propose to change that to say building Photos or likenesses or the new duplex structures Would be something we could commit to Let's see Condition f provides sheet c 401 Which is a stormwater detail sheet and we should also include c 805 which is another stormwater sheet in that Just to make that condition Accurate because those two go hand in hand if we're changing one will change the other Lastly as Catherine mentioned Public works is Trying to force feed us some wording in condition five that We shall submit statement That Stating that a review of the a and r documentation has been completed and that there are no reported issues or concerns regarding well yields I have a problem first of all with I'm telling me what I should be saying And the second thing is Might be on the bio find a bio finder But it's also on the a and r Atlas is a map of all the wells in this area some are Accurately mapped others not so much but you click on it and it will tell you The yield of the well is reported from the well drillers report And it may sometimes have the actual well drillers report which tells you how deeply went That's about it. Um, there's no commentary in that a and r website that's That you know has A place for the well driller or anybody else to issue comments on issues or concerns. I mean that's We have to rely on the information of those well drillers logs. It seems like It's strong. I've I actually submitted to staff a map that we prepared Well yields are all over the place, but they're They're good in my in my expert opinion and I can render A little bit more of a Letter that summarizes my findings But It's it's not really accurate to say that the a and r documentation Doesn't have any reported issues or concerns. That's that's just not Something uncomfortable saying because that's not Documentation in in the a and r doesn't doesn't draw conclusions I can only go by The information presented from past wells in the area So perfectly fine with coming up with a statement um I Suggest a word into catherine was a letter from the applicants engineer shall be submitted with the final plan submission addressing their review of the a and r documentation regarding well yields Which I'll be welcome to do Did it don't that's it Commissioners questions for the applicant Yeah Go ahead Sorry, I have a lot of questions. Um Can you just back up and tell me where that retention pond is? That you mentioned that's um when you were talking about that that neighbor You know complaining about the tree roots you talked about all these catch basins leading to a retention pond Um Is that to the left of the circle somewhere I can just come up and point it to you Just looking at this big map Because I was just trying to figure out Do you mean down there? Do you mean? Okay The new row of the existing driveways were right under it right here. We're proposing Strange soils here in here In water to catch basin here similarly a better little spot here At water Okay, so that that detention pond it's like that circle on the right. Okay. I got gotcha. There's two four days for pretreatment and Okay, this will all because we're over an acre of impervious Oh Right with a permit. Um, and then the other question is um, I looked at where you're gonna put um I'm a master gardener. So I love all the plants you picked by the way I can't take credit. Okay. Okay architect hands No, excellent because with the type I was studied the soils and you were talking about and I noticed your way in the back When you had little pictures of the wrong way to put a silt fence and the right way to put a silt fence so um because of the nature of the soils and I do have an ar a and r map Um through by our finder. I actually went to that map. Um Is our is that are those Gonna hold up because in past you know Uh Depending on the slope the land Um water coming downhill, you know, just like that neighbor was complaining. I'm concerned about Water going into the wetlands. That's not good And having the soil and mud and everything come down. How do we know that those? Fences you're gonna put up are those uh, what's the correct term? I'm looking for they're black silt fences. Yeah Silt self fences. Yeah erosion. Yeah, that's a concern Uh We've designed that we have a site specific. We have a plan for everything There's an erosion control plan that shows where all the silt fences are if they're installed properly Um, they should work fine. They're they're installed If you're not you're gonna take care of it Right There should be some oversight by you know, either the contractor or Okay Yeah, the stormwater ponds typically during construction are temporarily used to collect sediment from all this disturbance and then they get cleaned out and then Built to their final stage After most of the disturbance is done And then one other thing. Um, so we so the choices are uh Where you tell me where all the retention ponds and the wells and when it sometimes Things go to wetlands and I don't want, you know, phosphorus and pollutants and everything going into our nice wetlands so all that you have under, you know with the treatment areas and Controlling the silt and I guess that's a concern too. Am I? We've, uh designed the stormwater systems to meet all the states rules and regulations I can't speak on real specifics to be honest with you. I'm not not the stormwater expert, but They tend to be over designed for large storm events to be honest with you As you can tell by the one at the at the far end of the site. It takes up a substantial area. Sure Okay, thanks. I mean the cross section without going into details It's like two feet of stone and then there's mulch layers and such so the water all gets filtered through that stone And generally speaking, you know, the water level will be about six inches below the surface So wetland plants will still have wet feet sort of speak right and then Reboard of about a foot when the storms come water level goes up and then slowly goes down Thank you. How do you beat this the townstorm water engineer also does checks during construction Well, thank you for educating me. I appreciate it. Good questions commissioners any additional questions for the applicant Come on for me John David josh you guys good I don't have any I kind of like what i've seen so far, but I don't you know, I don't have the history of all this either, but I'm good Raphael good Nox good All right with that I would take a Um ocean to open the public hearing I move we open the public hearing second moved by moved by josh seconded by dave You're just a little slow All those in favor Opposed Motion carries seven zero public hearing is open So folks if anybody has any questions comments they want to make about that. This is the time Let's raise your hand be recognized and give us your thoughts questions We'll have you come to the table if you're going to speak Johnson you're up I give up your chair Good evening les Johnson the neighbor next door um Got a few things that uh that are of concern um And and I turn to figure out how things have changed over the almost 40 years that we've been there um Our initial attempt was to put our driveway Further up towers road towards old stage road um, but we were told at the time that the The quote unquote line of sight Would not accommodate a driveway further up tower um Obviously somewhere between what we built and when the gudham is built That line of sight somehow changed because there's driveways closer to whole stage road than ours And so now you're telling me that it's okay for 16 to 20 cars a day coming in and out of there that apparently that light of sight so I guess That that rise in the road somehow sunk. I don't understand but whatever um So that's a concern of the um The the amount of traffic that will be coming in and out literally Um 100 feet from our driveway um And I'm I'm not quite sure and maybe this gentleman can answer the question about this 15 foot of open space for Walking or biking or whatever. Where is that going to be? Is that a long towers road? That's at the end of the private driveway. Okay, so there's nothing to do with towers road then correct. Okay. Thank you um And in in reading some of the comments from past meetings that Apparently setbacks have been changed um and or um reduced So I'm not quite sure From the drawings how far these um Four units are going to be from our property Um, but they look pretty close Um And I'm I'm wondering if There's any way that the four units could have been put In the back part of the property and a single unit closer to us if that's the desired effect to have that many units um Obviously again, you've got the number of cars um With four units Was it will it be four dogs? um You know, there are no dogs now um And again, not that I'm opposed to dogs um but That's could be a lot of barking if I go out to work in my garden Am I going to be parked at every time I go out or whatever? I don't know um The uh, the the considerable talk about runoff um The natural runoff is to come down towers road and everything does flow onto our property and eventually into um, I guess all the brook or wherever it goes, but eventually does so um We have some issues with wet property, uh as it is now. Um so obviously that's a concern as to If we're if we're going to widen a paved driveway, that's going to create more runoff. Um, So concerned about that um You you did address the issue of potentially um Doing something to the potential life expectancy of the of the line of trees that we have put in Um, and hopefully that will be addressed um I noticed in the last application there was talk about deer population and a deer run We consistently have Anywhere from six to eight deer on our on our soccer fields all the time I would hate to see if that somehow Was no longer there um We've actually had moose Um on the property Um, so it would like I don't know how that's potentially addressed um I again read In the previous minutes it is going to be uh an hoa involved in the in the property Is that going to be for all eight units? Um, or just the four units Um, and and and how is that whole thing going to be maintained? um So I think those are our our main concerns And is I guess the other thing is there a timeline for this whole thing? um I said I heard you mentioned that uh The gurumas are not developers. They're not going to be building so they're obviously going to hire somebody So does that mean there's going to be? um Like maybe five different contractors in their building and is there any any Uh focus on the style of housing uh that kind of thing that's going to go in. Um, those are the concerns. I think I have Okay, captain. You want to take a shot at any of those or Doug? I took good notes. I could take a shot at please Uh, let's see So site distances, uh We measured site distances they are in accordance with the uh Count specifications of looking toward Um For the west there will have to be some minor brush cutting to uh to get you know full full site view, but uh, that's relatively straightforward And to the east there wasn't an issue So that's And just to jump on that too, captain you put it in Yep, and the uh right That is in occurrence with public workspacks the existing public workspacks of Yes, sir One more thought um when we when we put our well in um Our neighbor at the corner of Douglas road Um was concerned about the cone of depression that our well was going to be affecting his well um Some thousand feet away um There's going to be several wells now put in um What is that going to be affecting potentially our well? um The neighbor at the time um actually didn't have any water in as well and Somehow tried to blame our well affecting his well and got the town to bring water up to his house The town water is now all the way up to Douglas road um if Down the road 10 years or whatever we have an issue with water Is that going to become our responsibility or is it going to be somehow? affect it be affected by um the the new development of Are they going to put in In a seven seven more wells Or is there one well for each of the duplexes? We're proposing five wells One for each duplex one for each single family Well again, that that's a concern I do want to before we get too far down the well um, I do want to make it clear that the state is the Governing agency when it comes to wells So that goes to the point that that dug you brought up earlier about public works requiring wanting us, you know to require statements of a certain type That's a discussion point. We're going to have because we don't regulate wells um and Sure how we can help power if we can incorporate that sort of concern other than just noting it that it's a concern So we'll we'll we'll loop back to that before we before the discussions over Yeah, Dustin. Yes, Dave So also just for the neighbor's information if either of the wells um For the two duplexes, but his property Were to overshadow either his septic or well, he would get a Overshad he would get a notification And in that notification process would have an opportunity to To communicate and express any concerns with the state agency before the permits issued Okay, Doug you hit we're gonna go please continue. Yep. I'll just go down through the Mr. Johnson's list. Uh, he asked about the distance from the closest duplex to his house And that scales 150 feet So his house is about 75 feet to the property line and we're about 60 feet From the property line as well Uh, moving the duplexes to the end of the property Uh Not really an option. We've got wetland encroachments as you move further to the north This is a nice open meadow nice views to the to the east of and again the former planning staff, you know did a site visit and felt this was a great place to Add some additional units In the spirit of the prd There's also a a wetland there to uh the The north of the duplexes which which squeeze them In the location they are so We can't be any further unfortunately from the johnson's property line or we're into the wetland buffer, which is Uh, a non-starter for the wetland of folks Uh General soils out here are wet Uh, as mr johnson said, that's why they've got a mound system high groundwater As I said, I think surface water were covered very well, uh with the road and the roadway swales This road also will have under drains on each side of it, which May Impact may dry out the groundwater may drain the groundwater table a little bit no guarantees, but it It can't make it any worse put it that way Uh, I'm sure there are deer in that meadow, um But again, that's that's part of the open space common land, uh 25 Us acres that will remain open And undeveloped in perpetuity so there won't be any issues like the the previous applicant that were worried about What's what's going to happen? In the future, uh, this is it for this property To go back to the road for a moment. Certainly the addition of The swales on each side of the road and the drains to bring Based on applications that come before us in the past I would almost anticipate that to improve The sheeting that goes, you know north to south across there um It might actually improve so i'm Expecting that it'll be drier right both surface and groundwater conditions will get will improve when this new road goes in uh hoa not really there but um There will Be at least one hoa for road maintenance Well, there's a lot of shared infrastructure to storm water the roadway wastewater, so um There'll be one master hoa what I presume to to cover the maintenance and upkeep of all those shared utilities Not sure about the duplexes if that's might be a little separate with that shared driveway, but uh Once we get through this step obviously before final we'll get some legal docs Prepared and submitted at final to clarify those questions Uh, I think that's all I had for Mr. Johnson's concerns What do we miss sir? We went down through the list and I mean we did we touch on your concerns Yes Please yeah I'm nancy um I'm I'm concerned about the trees that We had to put in that's a stipulation from the town if something happens to these trees Are we required to replace them? I believe that was was that a requirement for from your soccer facility? Is that well in that way still it's still under a soccer facility I mean so it's still an act of I would just it's not active at this point But it could be active because we've never changed it I would have to check the approval to see how it's written in today's um Approvals we put for the life of the project not sure if when that was approved how it was written. So Say it would be dependent on the approval granted to the johnson's We've only done that for the last decade or so, right So so the condition the condition would have to read if a mature tree ever died it would have to be replaced Well Our conditions that we had today are for the life of the project And I don't believe that we had that back then But I will certainly check the files and we can address that again at at final Seems reasonable The other question I have is we had a stipulation on us that we could not put in a paved driveway And yet this can be paved And that stipulation be removed Without us having to come back and apply for that change You talk about stipulation on your parcel. Yes You know quite frankly we really can't address that in an application for your neighbor I think that's a reasonable question but not In the context of their application, right? I don't know. I just doesn't seem fair that One can do one thing, but yeah, we can't do another But we we all I'm not to argue that against that But your parcel went in 40 years ago Public work specs have evolved over time. So this is coming in under what we have for specs today That said, I don't think that's an unreasonable question I don't I think that would be more of something to float through public works and or the staff But again not part of this application I I'm very very hesitant to get into whether or not you can or cannot When we're talking about the the Gudma's application Okay, just wondering and just To verify. I think our well is 585 525 and we get a gallon and a half a minute Not having ever been on a well. I don't know what that means Not much water If a well yields a quart per minute It's 360 gallons a day So I don't know how much water you use but that's a decent amount of water Just to put it into perspective Most of the wells out there are one three five 20 a hundred gallons 16 gallons a minute three gallons a minute 30 gallons a minute The Gudham as well as 20 gallons a minute Okay, do we have any additional questions? Let's bring it back to the table for a few minutes Commissioner, what are your thoughts questions? What do we need on this? Justin David So to Doug's point about I went over to the table 2.20 regarding the elevations and building envelopes and The plan does say that we're required to have building envelopes I think we could achieve that achieve that pretty easily because once you take his sb or setback line Basically that could be the building envelope and then it just says that it's required for typical building elevations So it's not the actual elevations of the buildings So I think if we have a stipulation in there that restricts the height Which you know, that's already in the rags. I really don't think we care I know it's in the scenic district, but they can't be seen from tower's road or anywhere else So just typical elevations would would satisfy me. That's my two cents. Okay Next y'all got to speak so You might as well jump in I don't have any questions John I don't have any questions either Josh Um, I'm good. I was just looking at Condition five nothing I found to say but That I was reading it and listening to the to dug's point about how this is really just to me sort of a boilerplatey Condition where we really just want we wanted to say this is okay to go So I don't know if this exact wording if Doug was taking issue with it because The specific nature of an anr documentation. I'd be okay with changing that just to say the wells are they checked out The wells are good. Whatever whatever the wording needs to be that's no profound thoughts other than that Okay Now to the room um So les Johnson had a question Doug about um timeline and basically for For the project as a whole is there any any timeline at all or we're just talking subdivision here I guess I'd have to throw that to the applicants. I mean that We let to get through the permit process by spring We've got state permits, you know that are in the works as well as as this Uh beyond that if uh, I guess a gutama. It's just sitting down wanted to offer that um My name is my guess. I go to Emma So like Doug said earlier We are not going to be the contractors to build this our our intention is to subdivide it and design it have it approved And I'm sorry And the work was uh, you know a real estate agent and go through the proper A proper real estate things real estate agent to get us into the market So how how long it's going to take I I can't tell you I'm sorry. I mean this is Uh, this depends on the market on people will be interested to build it and what phases that we're going to be building it in Uh, how much I'm an energy contractor spend on it There's no no speculative construction Like we would like to have it, you know, we like to sell the property to contractor move out That's what our intention is Uh As much as we have enjoyed the 25 30 years of ownership of that place Um, or we're getting old then you can't stay here too long really so, um So I I don't I wish I could give you a specific number but I think I don't know what that's you know That's fair. I think the answer you gave is what is it? I I like to say a word, but uh, um, if you if it's okay. Yes Like I said, we we've owned the property since 1994 and and lived there since nine built and lived there since 1999 and we have really enjoyed being there. Um We have done nothing to impact that environmentally. We actually preserved it In so many ways and we also enjoyed our neighbors uh including the johnson's and the brunos and Around westerns and everybody else in the back as well all the rights um I just want to say, you know, we will our intention is not to harm anyone for the immediate uh times when Things don't work for us. We worked with our neighbors Uh and resolve the shoes. That's how we would like to continue to As long as we're here Uh, we don't want to make um our neighbors unhappy, but we also have to follow um You know, we we purchased this place for a purpose and um, we would like to try to balance both sides So that we don't lose out on it as well Just want to say that thank you you'll set john I I like what you just said. Um, I just wanted to comment and say that the scenic resource protection overlay That's what you're part of. Um, and the gentleman that had all those questions for you I have a Another significant feature map that shows where the deer yards are continuous habitat core habitat travel corridors are and It's um his yard is still going to have that according to this map I'm trying to superimpose it on your map and Because of all the wetlands and everything that are restricting Further development. That's why those four you know What are the units are kind of close to your properties because there's no wetlands or Things that would cause more flooding to your area and all the swales and everything they're going to put in um, and all the beautiful plants the only thing I wanted to ask was um, like one of my co cohorts mentioned about having a Restrict restriction on the height of the buildings that are by the nice gardens you're going to put in further up the road Um, and the view of mount mansfield you're going to build those chase lounges That's wonderful. I just want the whole neighborhood and your neighbors to be able to see mount mansfield and everything We don't want those buildings too high within your development So that this the scenic view is still going to be there You know like the people sitting in the chase lounges Right. I just wondered if that I just would like to have that as well But it all depends. So what's allowed what's not I think when we built our whole They told us to go above 35 feet high. Yeah Those are regulations we followed So I think that's not what we determined. No, I understand. Yeah, but you know, I know you want to sell it But that the fact that you're concerned about the environment is a good thing On my point of view and I was telling you why thank you Two things one Catherine can we or final Come up with a description to go in the planning commission findings that says this we feel this meets the PUD Design points because I think it's there, but we we did that for free at the final The next stage. Yeah, I don't think we need to hold it up for tonight I'm just saying that we did that for one of the some of the previous ones If we can just sort of identify Why we feel it meets this it'll just make it easier down the road And two, let's go back and touch on the on the wells again just to confirm What has to be done? What steps do you need to go through now? to For the well verification. Is this strictly research on your part? Does it what do you need to do in order to get the Approval approvals for those for a state. Yeah Maybe nothing I mean, they're far enough apart generally speaking if wells are 200 feet apart. They don't consider say doesn't consider interference for single family Not only single family. I don't remember the threshold for you know, it's a gallon per day thing, but Until you get up to up here fairly high gallon Uh per day demand, you know multi family for instance and they Uh potential, you know that the state would ask you to look at Impacts from one well to the other Comes into play I don't believe that will be the case on this project because the wells are far enough are not only within the project but Outside of that with the neighbor, you know neighboring wells as well So is there still an approval process or do you is it a basically you meet the criteria and you get the approval? Or I just want to make sure to see We'll submit this set of plans to the state. They'll look at um wastewater, you know the wastewater designs and the well locations And offer an opinion Well The issue of permit. Well where I'm going with that is is I'd actually like to You know go back down to the condition I'll push back on public works a little bit on this recognizing their concern um I think what all we asked for is back Confirmation that there's approval from the state I mean they're they're asking for details in five I think it's simply a matter of getting Knowledge on it that they're that the state approvals were issued for these wells We don't I mean I'm most wondering how can we ask for something that we have no No jurisdiction over at the state at this point in time Well and to further put a point on that Dustin you can't the applicant has no way of certifying Issues with well yields until the wells are drilled. So it's a it's a moot point This is the same this should be in the same category as wastewater This is out of our purview and out of public works purview And until they if the state issues the permit That's the state's purview and they won't know well yields until they drill them And we put conditions all state permits are required prior to issuance of a of a bill in permit. So So maybe maybe with this in in instead is captured in our findings is that the planning commission recognizes that the state has purview over well water and wastewater and that the And the the approvals will be captured in whatever condition Where you talk about all conditions of approval need to apply. Yeah Wherever wherever we've got in there the boilerplate language first I'm hesitant. I'm hesitant to to go above and beyond and start calling out at this point That which we have no purview we've had I think in west sleepy hollow Sleepy hollow other areas where this has come in and we have not weighed in on it because it's not been our purview West sleepy hollow more than once Brigham hill brigham hill lane more than one I think in unless public works wants to bring this back within town purview way from state Then I don't think we can put a condition in there that requires anything other than confirmation state approvals my two cents That makes sense Okay, we have not closed the public hearing yet. Does anyone have any other questions in the audience questions or comments? Hearing none. I would ask for a motion to close the public hearing I make a motion. We close the public hearing a second Moved by patty seconded by john all those in favor. I Opposed motion carry seven zero public hearing is closed Commissioners thoughts questions comments ready to anybody ready to make a motion And I think we can do this as a group effort with staff helping us make sure we capture the points I can try Go for it. Okay uh, so I make a motion of Nagesan wanted To Tema the proposal for an eight unit five lot planned unit development residential Pud dash r on a 37.8 acre parcel located at 137 towers road in agricultural residential low density residential and scenic resource protection overlay zones tax map 14 parcel 39 dash 11 be Continued on the grounds that we're waiting to hear from uh, the approval from the state Since we have no purview on What to do with the wastewater and water situation? You sure you want to continue? Well, don't we have to wait? No. Oh, we we have another round. We haven't this is the preliminary. Oh, this is just preliminary Okay, that's right. It's pre that's the beginning of this preliminary um So I'll just capture what you said and make it it just like a move to a motion to approve preliminary It was what we're looking. Oh, okay. Then I I make a motion to approve what I just said, which is the preliminary plan And there were a number of items that were called out subject to the findings and conditions with what changes do you want to call out? Okay subject In conditions to the findings of Hmm Well, um What's that we could say that we don't have we don't have we don't have purview of the wells or the wastewater or um, even storm water and um, the details where these retention ponds and and basins are going on how they're going to function where they're going to be So to help On condition 3a That was the question about building building elevations for all new. Oh, yes. Yes. Um, this is one david you had a suggestion for this Yeah, so why don't why don't I um, why don't I second it so that we can have discussion and offer a friendly amendment that 3a be changed to typical building elevations I'm fine with leaving building elevations for all lots Doug knowing that if you just make them the setback I think you'll be able to achieve what you need to achieve Um, I would recommend a friendly amendment to strike condition 5 completely from The conditions and we'll put something in the planning commission findings about um The wells And and Doug had an addition to 3f. There's an additional sheet See you at opar Sure Okay, I agree with all that add that all in there And then under additional findings We would be maybe making a request to include Um statements or final that outline Why we feel this meets the pu d standards and the language that Water and waste are outside of our purview Okay, um the reason it had it pu d is because it has to be within the um Because it's part of the scenic resource protection overlay district. We are Making sure that we're not near any wetlands or um Corridors for wildlife. We're preserving the views And then um What I said about the wells earlier. We don't have any purview to decide You know What the rules are with well depth? the catch basins the wastewater And wastewater treatment and wastewater collection pond May I ask a clarifying question? No, I think you you're looping a number of things in though. I think it's simply a matter of We don't have purviews over wells or I said that I said we don't have purview over the wells. Um, you know figuring out the depth of the wells of the Catch basins redemption pond started to go into retention ponds and catch basins and so forth. That's not part of this Oh, it's not okay. So that again, I think of the limit it to Wells just wells. Okay, because that's the contention point in this application. Is it wells and wastewater just wells? It's just wells. Okay. Yeah, I think we want the planning commission findings to to acknowledge that That uh the neighbors in public Just raised concerns over the wells And that the planning commission acknowledged that The state is responsible for permitting All potable water systems and that a permit will be issued And I think it's it's as simple as that And then while while we acknowledge the the concerns, you know, it's out of our purview Exactly what he said and just strike. Okay the paragraph that I said before Okay And I think the details of PUD application really was just to pick pick up what we had in other apps And not necessarily try to craft it or preliminary But just note that we would be including those details for final and then we can let staff Graph that to to meet the actual requirements And again, that's more to start helping us set the stage to fine-tuning How these are all going to be used or not used in the future And he said and had it with you D because he said PUD to me and I didn't know How elaborate I had to go so I will capture The typical With the points you made Yeah And we can amend it if you don't like it when you see it with this also can go into the final Some of that stuff can just be noted that and you're fine. We want this for final sort of thing And that way I think we can clarify it. Yeah, okay patty you good with the discussion back and forth Yes, thank you for all your help david you good with what we're at Yes, sir All those in favor All right opposed Motion carries seven zero. Thank you gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you folks for coming in Okay next item on our agenda are the minutes from When november 10th november 10th, okay, thank you I'll move approval Who said who's going david? Yeah, no, you're on No, you know you okay david for a shoe second I'll second it then Okay Subject to what david I missed that ruffle noise with your motion It all looks fantastic. Thank you. No changes. I make that call. They just make the motion Sharon here you want this? Does anyone want to offer any amendments to the to the minutes as presented? And this is the copy this has the update That dialed in on okay, none all those in favor Opposed minutes carry seven zero Doug have a good night. Thank you. Thank you Well, if people are gonna talk close it Thanks, you guys are like brothers. Thanks for helping me So katherine you want to talk about the modernization grant? I do I do So I apologize for just sending something over this afternoon. So I don't know If you had a chance to look at it or not, it's okay if you didn't um The the Thought about bringing this to you today is that we've been doing some work with the regional planning commission And we all thought we just wanted to make sure you heard where we were heading and we're okay with the direction we were So just a reminder this project is to look at Development potential increased development In our sewer core outside of etc next area So we're thinking so our you can picture our sewer core. It's pretty big. It goes from Um root 15 almost down to simons where the Dunkin Donuts is Over onto sand hill road and down 117 and then over in off of susie wilson pinecrest drive As well as Chester so kind of those sort of general areas. Oh, I mean, I mean it fills in behind the etc next area as well too so in our conversations With the regional planning commission um, and and in line with the grant we were wanting to increase density potentially increased density in those areas um and look at models or scenarios of how What development could look like if we were to increase density? So we wanted to get a picture of physically what it would look like We also need to get an idea of well our existing Sewer capacity Work like if we increase it too much we will run out of capacity So just just so we're working directly with public works on this which is which is great I don't think we've always done that in the past or maybe spotally um so We have chosen Three areas to Look at and this doesn't mean this is the only areas where we would see changes But there are these are the areas where we're just going to be doing the modeling And so one is the colchester road neighborhood um, I could actually bring Bring up the map To show you Um, so and maybe while i'm doing that what we're going to be modeling It's through arc gs urban is the Existing conditions a pud condition so existing pud conditions and then looking at the dimensional Standards that are within the enabling better places guide that was approved by the state So there are three different types of Densities essentially or Districts so one is a neighborhood zoning district One is A downtown district And a town center district So we'll be using the standards that are in that that guide To then so that shows coverage setbacks building heights all these things so we can Input that information in to build out some models for what the development could look like I hope that explains it a little bit sounds a lot like the discussions we had over the center the atc Yeah, both the you know the modeling that we talked about there. Yeah um So what was the third thing you said neighborhood district town center? What was the other one? um Downtown neighborhood district and center district Town center district not the neighborhood district town center. There was one more downtown Oh downtown So here's here's the map of the kind of Susie Wilson Colchester Road pinecrest areas that we're looking at so um Where my cursor my cursor is all over the place. It's like really delayed but um where it is that Susie Wilson Road Uh, so we're looking at that red area Um, and then we're looking at below it in that blue area. That's the pinecrest drive area and then the pink which is over on Colchester Road And then Wanted to look in the other some other area of town. So we're looking at the route 15 study area This is to increase density. This is to increase Yeah, and so just to be clear this doesn't mean we're going to be changing zoning to do this but we could Right. Um, what's what's possible? Exactly. So Question Catherine. Yes So, um, I assume because you're working with public works that it also takes into account existing capacity and what would potentially be needed for Uh, infrastructure upgrades to handle increased density. Exactly. Okay, perfect. Yep. Yep Yeah, that that was really important to make sure we were being realistic in it. Um, and and not setting us up for Failure, which I think was an issue with the etc next plan, right? There was concern needed to coordinate with public works on that um, so Looks like my little Dialogue box is kind of in the way here, but um Playing what well Yeah, I'm I would I'm trying to so you can see the bottom it has route 15 Uh, so that's sort of in the bottom and then sand hill road goes along Here This is sand hill where my cursor is the levine road is the far right the lower right Yeah, and this is browns River Road up here. So this is the elementary school Um, and going over to Irene Avenue, you know all the way down the route 15 quarter Um, this is all within the sewer sewer core area to watch that screen because you're talking ahead of it. Oh I hate that and it disappears off of there too, doesn't it? I don't have that little I can't see me on my screen Thank you very much. I'm glad Uh So that that's just an area that they're looking at is potential it is so we We wanted to get get a couple different areas of town Not just all over in the pinecrest drives Susie Wilson quarter, which is initially what was proposed and we like well Hey, we got to look at another part of town so So we're looking at like I mentioned Modeling what the existing conditions would allow what pd standards would allow and then using those different neighborhood types Um appropriately applied What what that would look like so like the Susie Wilson road would be a downtown where this area on route 15 um is considered the Neighborhood district see in order to build that today that would all the whole thing would have to be a pd Because they're all they're all quarter acre lots primarily quarter acre lots and and there's no way that you know We would be able to do that with our current regulations But I think it's good because it'll increase walkability. It'll Make sure our sidewalks get plowed It'll because you know, we're trying to get people to use cars less it'll Cause us to have better infrastructure for You know, not not just one mode of you mean, yeah Yeah, even if it's more puds, it's okay Question I've had over that is much that already is built out. It is built out. So So the the one one thing for us to consider this model can do um This is what I'm showing here existing buildings being demolished So it it can show like what would happen if we had the blank slate and then just put in You know, whatever density we wanted or or we merge lots And so you have a bigger lot than you can make the development happen Um, we we realize though too when you propose these things people could get a little testy You know thinking like this is um pinecrest drive If we demolish raised seafood, you know people might get upset So and we're not proposing to demolish raised seafood, but it will appear that we are and so we are not This is just a model to give us an idea of what we could see and again This is all only those areas that are currently in the sewer core correct Right. No, no proposed extension of the sewer core or amendment to it That's the easiest way to go Well, I just and I wonder because we've got the area um on the North side of 15 opposite Um Oh the maple field. Oh back that way that's that's primed for it's outside of the sewer core but it's primed for it's got the sewer capacity It's got the sewer line You know, so it's like the infrastructure is right up to it Um, and it's like that would be interesting to see if we if we could expand Not necessarily I mean with if we're looking at adding capacity to an existing place already there But it also makes sense to take some of the added capacity to an area that is Looking forward or prime for it But that breaks the sewer core up right So one question is is the What you are calling the west area of the north area of the um town center Yeah Is that currently in the sewer core or not? What I just mentioned is not in the sewer core. Okay, but Catherine was talking about those areas are in the sewer existing Okay, already in there. Okay. So that's why you're not talking about that area right Yeah, we we considered it but because it's not in the sewer core. That's it's less realistic that it would happen These changes could happen sooner. Yeah, I mean, I look at it just Knowing that it's not so that's a huge hurdle to get over but there's no Demolition and rebuild that's required. It would be it would be like You know, it's like wiliston doing task corners. We'd be able to design it that blank slate It would be a blank slate that could be built up Whatever standard right and that capacity that we're looking to Leverage in these areas where we want to redevelop We wouldn't need to try to squeeze it in we could just put it on that spot and Um, the family that owns that most of that parcel um They were required to put in a line Those over there Yeah, they've got the they've got the infrastructure Could accept the expansion beyond Beyond the maple field parcel They have the infrastructure to be able to Again, that's not not trying to accommodate an individual But if we're looking it's just an interesting it would be if we were going to expand That would be a logical expansion place because it's there it's primed and it could be a blank slate, right? um Agreed and this is a different project Because we're we've already determined that we're working within the existing sewer core um, and the and the ideas Really was to think about infill development And so where you have either underdeveloped lots or vacant lots Or or maybe older homes that Might not stay. So how can we try to create a better neighborhood, you know using my guide? Maybe like better places um So so the idea and like this this picture shows Like if you had maximum building height of 60 feet 100 lock coverage and no setbacks In the front and small and the sides you could have something like this and it wouldn't be a block like this, but Like that's that's a big change in what's there now um on pine crust and we I don't think we would see that but we just We could be looking at that kind of development just in this scenario and it it looks imposing We don't think this will happen But if we also look at merging lots together too, you could see even bigger structures Um, I have a question how far up? Towards maple field feels like what he was talking about is does the sewer is a sewer core already in place? That's right along the CERC Okay Okay, because I because you know just along 15 It looks like missing teeth and if we had that infill development it would make It's low so much better and make it a gateway, you know to our beautiful town But right now it looks like missing teeth. It just looks bad So I think it's a good project and just go where the sewer core is Because to fill those spaces in first get rid of the missing teeth and then we can do what he says expand the sewer core I don't look through what I says. I'm just asking the question. No, I know but don't ever say that Let's be for yourself on that No, I mean, I like your idea too, but that's not it. But again, it's just I think there's risk benefit in everything Right if you're talking infill you're going to change the character of the town and we've heard so many times We hear people don't want that's right.  I don't want that right and I mean, so I think there's a balance right, so that's why why we thought we should bring this to you and Should we back it off or you know, is there we're it's in the end You know after this All the modeling is done We're gonna have to share it with the public and then if we want to change our zoning We're gonna have to sell it to the public, you know get people on board with this is a good idea Assuming it is a good idea, of course, but a lot of work was done over the past five years With coming up with the the town plan the etc next plan. Yeah for sure and But it wasn't just I mean it was centered on that but a lot of what we did as part of that was to have public hearings And have people come in and we wrote all over the pictures and everything else People's con we had people write their comments and then We did the monkey Survey and all of that and so we're pretty clear and people were pretty clear about what they wanted to see Sure, and what you're talking about is not what they wanted to see Well, this is a different part of town and we're talking about different development and there would be Public outreach and involvement. So this is not going ahead without that process So Catherine, I think from my point of view I think it's good to go forward to this because even if we come up with at the end of the day We say we don't want this we'll know and we'll have we'll do the modeling will allow us to see You know a whole lot better than just I think it's going to look like that or I think it's going to look like this So I I think the modeling is a is a is a good approach period We did this a number of years ago with a with a transit complex that we were before lows went in And we modeled it and we walked away from it. I mean it just it didn't fit That might have changed in today's environment, but I think that's a good a good point It's and you could also think that okay. Well, here's here's what the Modeling shows, you know to the extreme and what if we cut it back by half or you know, and we made it fit Worth the context maybe so I think that that would be I think Go for I mean whatever we can get out of this. I don't we shouldn't go into it the expectation of that's where we're going to be We should go into I think it's this this is what we could get to and then I think we would find that there people don't want to go that far Um, it's just fun to throw it all we're doing now is just throwing out ideas. That's all um, just a couple points. I know dave has to leave in a few minutes and um, I Want to pull the plug by 8 30 tonight So I think do you need more from us on that? I'm good Do you guys online have comments or questions on this? I do not I'm good. Thanks Okay The other thing And dave if you can hold on for a couple minutes the charter changes Yes, okay So that this information did get out to you Um a couple days ago or maybe just yesterday. I forget when exactly um So Just by way of brief introduction There was a charter committee that was Charged to take a look at the charter and make sure that we're fixing the things that are different now that we are Righted from the city and They kind of went in with a an open Eyes and said we're going to make a bunch of changes. So these changes Weren't shared with staff or really even the select board until monday so I had no idea that there are going to be these changes specific to the planning commission and the zoning board So, you know what what I shared with you is that there's their proposal is to eliminate the zoning board and add a drb and That changes the role then of the planning commission to strictly be doing long-term planning and by-law updates essentially And the drb would then be doing all of the development review. So right now the zoning board does A limited amount of development review You guys do the majority of site plan and and subdivisions and they just do minor things that would all get shifted to the drb the other Proposal or part of that is that reducing the planning commission to five members So what has been asked From the town manager is that I share this with you Allow you to provide comments to me that I can Gather them all together And those will be sent to the select board. So it's not a done deal that this is happening They seem You know as of monday they seemed like that idea though the the drb change You know personally I feel like the process didn't The way the process worked wasn't Right, there should have been consultation There should have been a public process as well and and and figuring out do we really want to make this change? so The idea of saying or maybe a charter change saying that there could be a drb in the future That to me sounds good versus there will be a drb in the future There needs to be more discussion before there's a drb um, so whether or not we You know off the table whether or not we like a drb I will just you know, that's that's my my opinion so enough of me and just wondering if you had had any thoughts you're all The the select board will be looking at this again at their next meeting, which is a 19th And so they're open for comments to that point and they have to finalize it on the third of june or a third of january and then I believe there'll be a couple Public hearings so they can make changes before it actually gets put on the ballot for for voting At town meeting and then it goes before the legislature after that for their approval So you're looking for comments here now or and I know we're we're running a short on time So if you have personal comments that you want to send to me You're obviously more than welcome to go to the select board meeting coming up and voice your thoughts I would say that you know the that if we can have kind of a unified vision of Of where we want to go with this that would be good too um If I could make a suggestion at this point in in for the sake of the evenings, which is long gone longer than I sort of hoped um But how about everyone Send your your thoughts on this to Catherine And then if you're okay with it, I'd like to sit with Catherine and go through the list. I suspect there'll be a lot of consistency In questions and comments and if there's anything that stands out we can follow up with the individual last Get clarification But from that, you know put together a a package package for the select board Yep And I I also would be more than happy to answer any questions that you all have individually too if you Want some clarification of of what is a drb and how does it change for the planning commission and Maybe even some background of discussions that have happened in the past Dustin can I ask you a question? Sure Um, because you've been on this board a really long time Do you think because the population has grown and like wilson? I know they have a drb and and so the The wilson planning people the planning commission just does the planning And then the drb does a lot of the stuff that we're doing with the All of it. Yeah I'm just asking Dustin, do you see a big shift in the population all the time that you've been on this board where you think That's something that We need because We're growing like wilson. Maybe I'm just wondering his perspective because he's been on this for a long time So Dave I don't I I the in my mind there are questions yet to be answered Such as are we trying to solve a problem? That's that's the first thing comes to mind. I don't I don't know that there's a problem to solve So if we're not solving a problem, what are we trying to do? By this shift is the drb giving us a clear advantage over planning commission That does planning and applications. We only have one set of staff. So you know the planning The staff is still going to be the same doing the work unless we're expanding the staff Um, so we're not looking we don't have a separate staff to work on planning and work on applications It's a it's a consistent group. So are we trying to solve a problem or are we trying to? um Move into a state status that's similar to the neighboring community. So are we looking to to be consist for consistency across the county um, we saw trying to solve a problem or Or what I don't I don't know the answer to that. So I don't I don't see a driver I don't understand the driver to move from the model that we have correct I just yeah, because you've been on it a long time. I was curious. I think we've done a good Good amount of work Both in planning and application review and I think our are The two go together You do one and you learn about the other Whichever way you look at it Planning helps you do application review application review helps you do planning. So I don't see them being I don't see them yet being a big advantage being separated I don't know that we have so many applications come through that we can't do planning Um, so anyways, I think there's questions to be answered. I mean I worked on the committee that Came up with some of those suggestions if we were going to join The merger and I mean the theory behind it is that the Current planning commission doesn't have a lot of time to do to focus on the long long range planning and so That's why having a planning commission do that I mean that that's the theory behind it and then the The drb would focus on applications and all of that And you know now we're actually smaller so then what that What that committee was working toward Because it was working toward one one planning commission two drb's is what it was going to have been Yes, and it would be the yeah equal equal number of people from both communities to serve on the planning commission and Two drb's because the the two parts of the community are quite different and different in what their vision for their part of the community is Which is why I might have concerns about infill and making big buildings out of Two small buildings or whatever because you know right now with the housing situation What you're what you're talking about eliminating and making into you know bigger complexes It's those small houses like the one that I live in now That we need more of They're the ones that are more affordable there. It's a home. It's they have a yard It's what people want when they get into their first home And you know and that's something that most people could afford and I know you know just from the number of Requests I get from realtors of you know, I'm interested in selling You know so there So that that goes to that's another whole issue That's I think the modeling on that would be we're back to that But the other thing on this is the numbers, you know, why why the numbers if if you have smaller group You're more susceptible to having Failure points of being not being able enough people to Make the decisions and that mean did we want to go down to having a minimum of three to make a vote that seems You know, we haven't had any issues with having a board of a board of seven With a minimum of four We have four we can we can make a decision um It just doesn't seem like there's a again. What's the driver? I understand that the there was a driver when we were doing a merger potentially But are we at a point where we need to is there is there a need for this or is this just a want? I guess is a is a sort of a Question mark So But with that if everybody can take some time over the next day or so and get thoughts to kathryn um Then we can maybe can then could collate those comments and see what they come up and see what they look like Yeah, so just send them directly and not the group. Yeah I'll be out of town, but i'll try to talk to you. Does that work john josh Can't tell if tom's still on her. Yep. I'm here. This sounds good Okay Anything else I had one really quick update The um the town plan working group has currently scheduled five maybe six Sort of community vision hearings to gather input from people on what they would like to see on the upcoming town plan Those are scheduled. I can send you the dates or captain probably has them right there in um early january Various locations throughout town based on getting a good geographical distribution So that's that's moving forward. We've already come up with sort of I think I told you at a previous meeting within the working group itself what we want to do In terms of various aspects of town and we're going to see what the town thinks Ideally we'll be sending out postcards Uh to invite people to those And then we'll collate all of the input we get and take it from there Good progress Okay Anything else Okay, let's have a motion I move we adjourn Second all those in favor Hi