peace and reconciliation, that's also the basis for reaching the sustainable development goals. So a lot is at stake to create the right circumstances for peace and reconciliation. And in the panel, we have a lot of experience related to this. Of course, it's easy to make a gloom and doom perspective, but for Africa, I think it's also very important to underline that there are a lot of silver linings and a lot of positive developments. Look just the last two years. Ethiopia has made peace with Eritrea. Who would have thought about that? Then Djibouti and Somalia followed. Lately, we have seen President Museveni with President Kagama in Angola. And they also agreed on how to deal with the challenges between the two countries. There is a peace agreement in Mozambique. Lately, we saw very positive developments in Sudan, in Khartoum. The same in Central African Republic. We can also make the list longer. Still, there are hotbeds like Chad, Cameroon. We also still have challenges. We know in DRC, even if there are some positive developments. But we know that a lot is at stake to create the right circumstances for peace and also to create real peace dividend. If there is a peace agreement, people have to see that something positive is coming out. I would like to start with the commissioner. He is really in charge of the whole peace and reconciliation work in Africa. And Commissioner, African Union has a 2063 agenda when African Union will celebrate 100 years. And one of the agenda points is silence the guns by 2020. That is a great aspiration. Will we get there? And how to get there? And how to enhance the work to make Africa even more peaceful? Thank you very much. Let me first thank you for the invitation and also see how much I am honored to be in this panel with two of our leaders of the continent. And to your question, let me, if you allow me first to indicate that, yes, we have this blueprint, which is 2063 agenda, which deals with all issues of peace, stability, development in the continent. But I would like first to indicate that as Africa and Africa Union is conducting those efforts, we have to indicate that the international order these days is really giving us a lot of question at a time when mutualaturalism is under attack, at a time when we see the surge of populism, denialism, and also external interferences in the continent. I think this is adding to the challenges that we have already. So I think the silence in the guns by 2020 was met or was designed first by our leaders to really ask each and every citizen in the continent to look every morning in the mirror and say, what did I do to silence the gun? What is my contribution? It's not only the responsibility of the government or the political parties or the civil society. I think this is a joint endeavor. And I think, quite honestly, we have done a lot. You just mentioned some of the achievements. I think some years ago we had 13 conflicts in the continent. And then through different programs that we had, either direct deployment like the one we have in Somalia, Amisom, or the joint deployment with UN in Darfur, or the other deployment that we did. And then we re-halted to the UN, be it in Central Africa, in Mali. So I think Africa UN has been always in the forefront addressing these issues directly. And I think we have got a lot of good results. You mentioned a lot of them. Let me, for example, indicate the agreement we signed on CAR on the 6th of February between the 14 armed groups and the government. And the latest agreement in Sudan to which also President Musevini here and the Prime Minister of Ethiopia and indeed our Chairperson contributed a lot. So these are achievements. But one has to say that these last years, some of the crises have become more complex because now they are associated with terrorism and with criminal networks. And this is a new challenge that some of our security apparatus in the continent were not prepared. So I would say that, yes, we have achieved a lot, but we need extra efforts. That's why we signed also another agreement with UN to really work together now to make things better. And this is, in fact, what is happening in many parts of the continent. Now we are even having joint visits on the ground. So the other, the African Union invested not only in addressing issues of peace, radicalization, but also we are of the view that the response to our problems in terms of stabilization and peace and security should be comprehensive. It's not only, yes, the response, the security and the military response is needed, but it's not enough. We need to invest in development. We need to give hope. We need to make sure that also the issues of political governance is in total play. So it's a combination between the agenda for governance and the agenda for peace and security. And let me here indicate the very big and important move that we had just realized in Yami, that is the launching of the free trade area, which will have immense implications in terms of development, in terms of hope, and thereafter its implication on peace and security. Thank you, Commissioner. A short follow-up question before we turn to the two Excellencies, the two Presidents. You were mentioning that terrorism and violent extremism is complicating the picture. We have al-Shabaab, we have a Boko Haram, we also have a very complicated situation in Mali. Do you think it's a possibility to mainstream these movements? We're seeing now there is negotiations between Taliban, the U.S. and the government in Afghanistan. Or are these movements that are so extreme that they can only be fought with arms? Well, I think normally we don't close any door for those who want to come back. And I think if you see today whether some Shabaab people are coming back and talking with the government in Somalia, or you see those now who are surrounding in Boko Haram area, we don't close such a door when we are acting in the respect of our values. I mean, we should not give up. So whenever someone wants to come back and discuss and see what are the options, I think we have always to consider that approach, but there is no compromise in terms of our values. So I think we can also arrive to a better, because in fact all these movements, these terrorist groups are imposed on Africa, they are not born in Africa. And what we need is the same mobilization of the international community as they did in Iraq and Syria. If you have the same engagement, the same development, because today Amisom is combating without even enablers, without force multipliers, and without even our troops are not paid, the level, the UN in the same town are paid. So I think these are challenges on which we need real engagement and genuine engagement of the international community. Thank you, Commissioner. I'm also looking forward later on to President Museveni's perspective on this. But first, to the first female president of Ethiopia, I was going back to your inaugural address where you said while peacekeeping is seen as a male domain, this needs to change through ensuring women's equal participation. How much difference do you think it will have on peace and reconciliation to also inject women in this and have ownership among 50% of the African population that is women? A big difference. Indeed a very big change they can bring. But first of all, I'm very happy to be at this World Economic Forum for the first time. I'm also really enjoying and I'm happy to participate in this very pertinent topic. Women have to be part of, you know, our quest to peace. It has been said for so long why they are the victims, they are those who have suffered most women and kids and children. And then are we expecting to have a solution that will be sustainable, that would be encompassing the whole society if the very victims are not associated? Women should not be portrayed as victims anymore. They are also, they should be part of the solution. And we have seen it in cases where they have been at the table, things have moved better. And I think we should remind everybody that there is a collective decision, Resolution 1325, which asks women to be part of the solution. So this is something that has not trickled down. We have to really process it. We have to really make it happen at any level. I truly believe, and I will go even further, please let's have more women and test it because I think it will work to have women leaders, to have women at those tables. Most of the time, some of the, I mean, quest for peace, the image, the figurehead that we see are women. But when we go to sharing power, they totally disappear. So we have to be very careful of that. And I think at this time and age where we are now, we have to be serious on this issue. So I say without conviction that this can make a difference. Thank you Madam President. Just a follow-up question related to Ethiopian Eritrea last year. This historic breakthrough and peace agreement was made. And no one really had expected this. It has been a conflict going on for decades. Who could this change almost overnight? Is it the illustration that sometimes a change in leadership can also make to this kind of changes in policy? Or was it already so ripe that it was a low-hanging fruit? And is it sustainable? Is it the real difference now? Because I also lately seen that there's been some, the border has been closed again. But if you can share a short perspective on this. Yes. Thank you. Any normalization or, you know, peace agreements and so on is based on a national interest, obviously. So for Ethiopia, the first thing to do was to really normalize and bring this no peace situation to a normal situation where we can handle between two neighboring countries. So that was the thing. But to answer to the question, yes, it requires a different way at looking at things, a different length on how you see things. So that was happened in Ethiopia. The change in Ethiopia has normalization with Eritrea. And it's a normalization. It's a relationship between two neighboring countries, like with any other, with ups and downs. We are trying to really institutionalize this relationship as we do with other neighbors. So we might have some problems, but I think this is going to be solved through times. But the one thing which is very important that we have to take away from this normalization between our two countries is that now, in this time and age, when we have this agenda in 2016, the commissioner has been very eloquent on that, we cannot have neighboring countries harboring our groups or opposition parties or opposition movements. We have to allow to open the political space in our own countries so that they come and exercise their rights wherever they are. So I think that would change the realities that we have seen on the continent, but which is really decreasing to my view under our control, but this is what should be done. Thank you. And I'll turn to President Museveni. You have vast experience as a leader, and also you have seen a lot of conflicts coming and going. You also have taken a lot of responsibility and paying quite a high price also in Uganda as the country in Africa that has received most refugees, 1.4 million people, refugees are now based in Uganda, according to UNHCR. Mr. President, based on your experience and what you have seen, how can we in the future better avoid conflicts like we have seen in Sotsudan, between Ethiopia, Eritrea, the unfolding of the situation in Somalia, but also difficulties in DRC and etc. What can we do to make sure that this doesn't happen again in the future? What can be done is to understand the causes of these conflicts. With war, generally, there are what we call just wars and just wars. In 1952 and 1994, you could characterize some of the wars in Africa as just wars, who are just wars. The wars which we are dealing with now, the ideological problem of emphasizing identity or religion, like in some of the places. So that is an ideological mistake to emphasize a pseudo or like in the Middle East, Shia, Sunni or like in some of the areas, tribes, because what does a modern person want? A modern person needs, does it come from belonging to the same tribe, or does it come from sharing my good or my service and services? Then who can buy my products? Most of the time you'll find that one who can buy your products is actually not a member of your tribe, the other group, different from mine. So when you emphasize identity, at the expense of interests, of progress. So when you talk about these wars, I don't know many people here talk about the ideological problem, but it cannot be anything else. Now, but however, also you must avoid pessimism in Namibia, the war against the use of decolonization, because what was causing those wars at that time was decolonization. So now where we have, now finally, on the issue of, you asked the question about the Taliban and all that, these groups must be ideologically not just sorted out what are the interests of society, the positive interests, and what do you represent so that in the first place, what were you fighting for? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you when it comes to more ideological warfare, but you also mentioned tribal warfare where the tribes don't see that really they're in the same boat. So Sudan. They got their succession from Sudan, so now it's mainly a Christian country, different tribes, a size of France. And that's how we're able to gain the upper hand in terms of thinking, to have a majority of the people looking at how will I get a job, where will I sell my products, to look at interests rather than identity. So Uganda was like that, it's not just South Sudan, what was the problem in Nigeria, Biafra? That was the problem. Even now, when you talk about Boko Haram, what is the problem? In Congo, the Katanga, the Session and all that. So even Sudan, the problem was identity, first of all race, people will say they are Arabs and others African, then Muslim, Christian, now tribes, because identity goes on descending.  If you say identity, there is no end. In the end, you end up with families. So that's why we must challenge the defective ideology of emphasizing identity. That must be challenged and banished, but that's where the problem is coming from. So it's just South Sudan, it is in many places. If you don't challenge it, it will be a problem. Thank you. Susanna Marhad, you're the chair of OSD DAC. This is really one of the foremost think tanks when it comes to development. What does it take to move from being poor to become a country? President Museveni was also mentioning this importance of prosperity, and we know from peace and reconciliation that to make these agreements also strong, people have to see that there is a peace dividend. And how much of a focus do the donor countries have on this? And also, we see that many of the conflicts that we are faced with are protracted crisis. They've been going on for decades after decades, for example, Somalia, and we're still there with a huge amount of humanitarian assistance, food and all this. How does the humanitarians work with the development agencies? Isn't there a better way to work together so we can see more prosperity coming out of this? Yes, and thank you very much for inviting me on this panel. I think the short answer is we are doing better to support fragile and conflict affected states. There's about $80 billion a year of official development assistance that goes to them, but we still have a long way to go to improve our performance. These are, as we've heard, extremely complex contexts within which to work. There is no one-size-fits-all model, and it's where development and humanitarian assistance and critically politics intersect. One thing that the Development Assistance Committee has agreed to do is to join up humanitarian interventions with development interventions much more systematically and to hold each other to account for doing that. So to break down those silos that you so often see, and as you pointed out, sadly, with long-term conflicts, humanitarian crises become structural development crises. So this is essential. Conflict prevention, we're not very good at it. We spend a mere 2% of official development assistance on conflict prevention and need to do far, far more. There's overwhelming evidence to show that if you intervene to prevent a conflict or to stop a fragile state from becoming a failed state, it is much, much more cost-effective in terms of human suffering, but also in terms of pure economics and money. And we really can't afford, as the international community, not to come in behind fragile states. So we mustn't lose our nerve. We have to rely on the good offices of regional organizations, the African Union, presidents and leaders who are prepared to roll their sleeves up and do the hard work of conflict prevention, but we have to come in behind them. I think that the final point I would make is the criticality of economic integration and employment. I mean, the number of speakers have talked about youth radicalization. Unless, collectively, we can provide decent work for Africa's youth, then it's going to be very hard to see how we can really have a stable continent. And just the example of Ethiopia and Eritrea, when those two countries work together, there are economic benefits on both sides of the border and the case for conflict and fighting is reduced by the people. The Continental Free Trade Agreement of the African Union will be transformative when that happens. And finally, I would strongly support what President Salawak has said about engaging women. Again, women, when they work on peace agreements, mean those agreements are more likely to last 15 years or more. So it has to be the whole of society that comes behind conflict prevention and peacemaking. Has it been a problem that on some of these peace agreements there's been a very small group sitting in the room agreeing on something and signing a document, and the ownership has not been there? Have you learned from this, and are we approaching this differently in Africa today? Or is it still in a closed smoky room? I think we are learning from it. I mean, I think I would defer to African political leaders on that one. What we as donors have to do is to come in behind those multi-stakeholder agreements and put the resources in to help build the peace and to finance building the peace. Thank you. I turn to Zippo Petiana, the chairman of Anglo-Gold Chante. I looked at your annual report. It's a very good and interesting report, and there you say that number one risk now is political and country risk profile in core production areas of your company. So I'm also wondering if you could share some of these perspectives, but also with your vast background, also from government and foreign relations, where do you see the business sector can play a positive role in pushing and supporting peace and reconciliation processes? Well, first of all, I'd like to acknowledge our leaders, two presidents here. It's good to be part of this exchange, and my fellow panelists, it's so important that business is being brought in these conversations more and more because it's a very critical player in this very important issue. The first point I would like to make is that is one that has already been made in a way that we need to look at sustainable peace and post-conflict peace arrangement anchored around socioeconomic development as a sustainable project, and therein as business, we think that we can play a very important role. Part of that is that business must conduct itself honestly with integrity and in an ethical way so that its trust levels in communities, not just with governments that happen to be in power at a particular time, go a long way so that when there are changes of government, business continues to be a partner irrespective of what the ideological disposition of a party that in power is.  So a more developmental business, particularly multinational involvement that is looking at sustainability approach is absolutely critical. We should look at business arrangements, particularly with big business, that seeks to leverage the involvement of big business to create a multiply effect in those economies so that long after they would have exited those economies, business continues to thrive. I'll give an example in a number of countries. We as Anglo-Goldershandi were trying to push very hard for an approach to mining that recognises artisanal small-scale miners. Big multinational mining companies enter these territories and extract mines, finding smaller players in place, and when they leave, they leave them there. So we must have an empowering relationship that enables them to continue mining, sustainably safely taking care of the environment and also giving you regard to decent work and labour standards. So we're looking for those kinds of partnerships. They require that governments provide regulation. But one of the critical things about that is that they enable us to isolate illegal miners who more often than not get involved in syndicated international crime, fuel conflicts and sponsor wars in different countries. So it's very critical that we find a way to partner around this. The second one is that in DRC, we are involved with our partners in Barrick, where we have invested in infrastructure like electricity generation. We only use 10% of that electricity, but in fact, 90% of it has powered the surrounds and has created opportunities for sustainable small and medium enterprises. So our approach is that entrepreneurship creates opportunities for inclusive involvement and sustainable growth. And secondly, it creates jobs and prospects for decent jobs to have combatants that are being demobilized from wars to get involved in sustainably active economic activity and also employment of those and young people. So those are some of the interventions that we're looking at. And I think that the benefits that accrue from this are absolutely critical. So if business takes this kind of approach and there's a partnership with governments and with the African Union, we can begin to look at prospects where businesses don't get displaced with the change of regimes because even that continues, contributes to destabilization of countries because economic development is a critical component in sustaining post-conflict peace arrangements. Thank you. So if I understand you're right, you are still going to invest in Africa moving forward as a company. Well, 50% of our investment is in African continent and we believe that Africa is a good place to invest in. We have differences with government. We have opportunities to engage and work close to with them in different territories and various jurisdictions. We listen and we think that we have crafted ways of partnerships that are specific to circumstances of various countries. One of the key things that governments are demanding, some of which is in the agenda 2063, is that our involvement in different economies must be empowering. They must create opportunities for participation and growth and partnerships of locals, skilling of locals, creating opportunities beyond. This debate here is about fourth industrial revolution. Multinational companies in African countries must understand that they are in places which are about development. Must create opportunities beyond our immediate needs, for instance, to allow for education and skills development through distance e-learning programs that accesses world-class institutions in other parts of the world. Thank you, sir. I see there is a lot of heads nodding here. We should have continued this panel for another half an hour. At least I would have liked this because we are so privileged with so much insight. We unfortunately only have three minutes left. So I would like then to turn to the two presidents. If it's okay at the end, I'll start with Madam President and then go to President Nussevin. I know that you would like to comment. But if the two of you in one and a half minutes at the end also could share with us what are you most optimistic about moving forward for Africa when it comes to peace and reconciliation? And what keeps you up at night in one and a half minute? That's an easy task for two so able presidents. I don't know for that. But thank you very much.  For me, as it has been said earlier with the decrease of number of conflicts and so on, it shows that some of our major issues which has been there for quite some time, keeping us busy, is decreasing. That's a very good sign. But I wanted to really say that we have agreed on agenda 2063 with SDGs and so on. When we start with SDGs, which are coming much sooner, is the fact that the goals are interrelated. There is no situation where we'll have 100% peace for development to start. We have to know that development will contribute in bringing peace as well. So we are interrelated. We have to come out from this silo mentality when we think that peace is in one corner and development on the other. I think the fate of everybody is interlinked and we really need to encourage that. And for partners really to see, in a case where I have been in the Central African Republic, a DDR couldn't move because there was no agreement in financing host community, which would be the basis for combatants to go back. So we really need to join our efforts and to understand, to have a common goal and move on. So peace and development are really very much interrelated. Thank you. Thank you, Madam President. President Museveni, you will have the honor to close the panel. Well, as a business, the business can play a very crucial role in changing the polarization in society from being vertical because that's what it is now. When you have got a pre-capitalist society, a society, traditional society, you have tribe A here, tribe B here. The cleavage is vertical. When you have business, when there is social transformation, society changes. You have got a big middle class, then the structure of society changes. You have employers and employees. Now issues become different. The arguments are no longer my tribe, your tribe, the arguments are now. I want more salary. I want more less working days. So the polarization now becomes horizontal, the employer, employee. So the business should be clear about this, that they can contribute because by investing, creating jobs, getting people from the tribal areas to the factories and to the companies, it is part of durable peace building. There must be social economic transformation. You cannot maintain a pre-capitalist structure of society and you think that you will have peace. It is not possible. That's what happened in Europe because if you go to Europe, even to the time of the French Revolution, 1789, what was the structure of the society? What was the structure of the society by the time of the Renaissance? There was a metamorphosis of society. It changed. That's what must happen here. You must have social metamorphosis. You must have a middle class. A middle class is more cosmopolitan than the tribes. The tribes are parochial. They are just looking at your area because you don't have interests beyond your village. You are looking after gods. Gods only need one hill. But if I'm producing motorcycles, then I need the whole of East Africa to sell my motorcycles. So business can be the transformative engine of peace after. Thank you so much. I think that was a very nice note to end on with prosperity. Peace also follows. When people strive for an income, education for their children, they will also be more horizontal in their thinking and not vertical in their thinking. That is a way of working towards peace and also silencing the guns, like the African Union has stated. I would like to thank this excellent panel for their insight. I learned a lot and I think also the participants feel the same. Thank you so much.


Hey, GovCon Giants family, Eric Coffey here, your host of the GovCon Giants podcast. If you are new to our podcast, we interview people, companies, organizations that are all supporting small business federal contracting.  So today, our guest is Ms. Roberta Moore. Ms. Roberta Moore started her organization Amora Incorporated back in 2002. She actually graduated from the 8A program in 2014, and so we're able to draw from those experiences of what it was like to be part of the 8A program back in the early 2000s. But more so than that, in today's episode we discuss how she acquired her first mentor, how she met her second mentor, and then how that mentor gave her a back office. And then from there, she was able to grow her business and start doing O'Connor's contracts. That's right, work outside of the continental United States. Stay tuned for this upcoming episode with Ms. Roberta Moore. My name is Roberta Moore, and the name of my company is Amora Incorporated. Okay. All right. Now, just before we actually turned on the cameras, you were telling me that you were the rainmaker for your company. Yes. Tell us more. Okay. So I was talking about how I didn't have a BD person, or I did. I actually paid some BD people, but no one ever brought me any contracts that I was the rainmaker for my company. So everything that came in came through me, although I spent money paying other people to do BD for me. If that makes sense to me. Does that make any sense? Okay. So what would you say to folks out here who's just getting started? I mean, should they hire BD people? Should they focus on learning BD themselves? What do you think? Well, I think that they should bet their BD people. I'm not against hiring BD people. I think they should be betted. I also think that people buy from people they like. So if they like you, then they're going to want to see you and they're going to want to buy from you. So I think that you should do BD as well as if you're big enough to hire BD professionals. Oh, interesting. Now, again, when you say when you first got started, so take us back to when you first got started. How about that? Oh my. Let's go back in time. Okay. Let's go back in time. So Eric, I started in 2002 as a single parent of three boys. And so my youngest is 23 now. So that's, and he was four when I started. So that's 19 years ago. So I started because of necessity. And basically I worked for Naval Surface Warfare Center. I was redlined out to the old David Taylor model basin. And so I worked there and I had my youngest son and I was like, I want to work from home. I want to have my own business. So on and so forth. So I actually resigned, resigned from the federal government. Yes. And so I know it's gutsy. So I resigned from the federal government and I decided I was going to start this business. Didn't know what I was doing. Didn't get anywhere far. And so my ex-husband told me, he says, you need to get a job. And I was thinking, well, I have you, why should I get a job? But, you know, as it worked out, one of my colleagues from NSWC told me that there was a small business that was right in my backyard, not too far from my house. They were a minority owned company, 8A, and they had a contract at NSWC in that I should go and work for them and manage the contract. So I went for the interview. I got the interview, went in and declined the job and told them that I was an entrepreneur. And I still have no money, no contracts. So eventually. You are gutsy. No, it was terrible. So eventually things got tight.  So go back. So I went back. They hired me. And I ended up managing the NSWC contract. So I did the projections. I did the monthly report. I did the hiring. I did all of that for their contract. And so that was the school of business for me. So that's how it really got started is I had to work for a small business. And yeah, so I worked for that small business. So when you went back, just for clarification, we went back, you didn't go back to the government. You went to the small business itself. I went back to Ellen. Okay. And they hired you to manage there. Yes. They hired me after they offered me the job the first time. And I declined saying that I was an entrepreneur. Right. Okay. So you managed the contract for them. Yes, I did. So that was the school of business though. And technically I was a fish out of water because I came from the federal government and went into small business. It was very difficult. It was a whole different animal. Everything specialized in the federal government. So now I'm in a small business and I have to wear all these hats. You have to do BD. You have to manage this contract so on and so forth. So that was the school of business for me. The company ended up graduating from the 8A program. And I had the right idea that I was going to become an 8A so that I could help them and take over 51% of their contracts. So lo and behold, I didn't get 8A fast enough. Okay. And so when I submitted my 8A paperwork, they were like, it was future five fish or something. Get it out of here. They, yeah, they got rid of it really fast. And then I happened to be at a conference and everything went electronic. And once it went electronic, I had everything at the push of a button. And I was actually certified as 8A. So I believe that was in 2005 that I became 8A certified. 2003, I became HubZone certified. And so while I was at that small business, Eleni, I ended up meeting another woman owned company, a retired colonel from the Air Force. And she had a big contract with DIA or in Baghdad, Deborah Scott Thomas, DST. And so I offered it to Eleni, the company I was working for. They said they did not want to have anything to do with Baghdad. So it was the first right of refusal, right? I gave them the first refusal. So Deborah Scott Thomas said, well, we want to work with you, your HubZone. And from that contract, I made enough money to work for a more full time on my own. So I didn't have to work for Eleni anymore. Prior to becoming 8A and HubZone while I was at Eleni, they did pay me as a 1099. So they paid me under my business eventually. So they were basically my first contract, Eleni. Actually, there's a lot of things to the story that I really do like. I'm enjoying. And I think people want to just kind of stop it and highlight for folks because I do know some of the questions that people are asking out there listening to this. One is you just kind of answered it about them paying you as a 1099er. But at what point did that happen? Later I started my business. And after... When did they start paying as a 1099er? When did they start paying me as a 1099er? Yeah, as a contract. Remember you said they paid you as a contract to Eleni? Right. Once I started a more incorporated. So I told them what my goal was. My goal was to become 8A for them. So I wanted to... I love it. Exactly. So my goal was so that they could have an 8A that they could go and that they could keep, I mean 49% of their work. So in turn to help you out, they start paying you as a 1099er and through your company. Exactly. Okay. So they were along with the plan. They were going along with the plan. Right. Because I presented it. And the beauty of it is that I negotiated for them to pay my insurance through the company. I know. That's awesome. I needed insurance. I had three boys. I was a single parent. I mean that was the biggest concern at that particular time. So. Right. Let's talk about that.  Exactly. Right. But your brain says something different. Exactly. Because I have this baby. I had already... I mean I had two older boys and then I had this baby and I was like, I want to stay home with this baby. So the only way I'm going to really be able to do that is I have to work for myself. But that is definitely unconventional thinking. I agree. I agree. And it's some gutsy. It takes a lot of courage to do that. I mean I ended up going through a divorce during the process. And my boys were really what made me want to have my own business and really work hard at it because I knew there was no other way that as a single woman I was going to be able to give them a decent life. So I figured I have to go out here and make it happen for them. And that's what I did. Wow. That's great. I love it. The other part of the story that I want to recap is now this contract that was in back at that with Deborah Scott Thomas. Yes. What were you doing? Because I mean again most of us when I think about... I'm kind of like your first L and E. Like I don't know about no back that contract. I would be a little hesitant also. Most of us don't know how to work outside of our cities. And then you talk about going to Baghdad. Right. So the beauty of the Baghdad contract is that we were building up the infrastructure. So we were doing IT. And so L and E was doing IT. And I was managing a Pentagon contract for L. E. At the time and it was coming to an end. And I had already gotten all those people. Top secret facility plans. So it was like they were asking me like Roberta, what's the next, you know, gig? What are we going to do? And I didn't have another contract in queue for them. So when this opportunity came up, I had somewhere to send them and believe it or not, it was so interesting because I was, I just happened to be at a Homeland Security conference. And it was a guy sitting there and he had his glasses on sitting with his laptop. And I was like, this is the last person. And I said, he looks smart. I'm going to leave my card with him. And that's how it is up with the Baghdad. No, no. Yes. So that's how I got that introduction to DST and Deborah Scott Thomas. And later she ended up becoming my mentor and she gave me the whole back office. I mean, so it will end up EPA contract. I mean, I have my name on the Ronald Reagan in the Ronald Reagan building on the door for EPA. So it was a very lucrative relationship just for leaving that one card with that last guy as I'm walking out the door. What'd you say to him? I just, um, I told him that I had cleared professionals at the Pentagon and that the contract was getting ready to end. And I'm looking for somewhere to place. That's what I told him. And he remembered cleared professionals. That was the thing that he needed to ask that I had cleared it professionals. So that's how I ended up getting that phone call. Um, and from there. So we built up the infrastructure, but it was one contact that I had hired on the Pentagon contract who like gotten everybody, like my phone was bringing off the hook because of this one. Person. There's one female and she just had the people calling like crazy. So I made enough money to leave Eleni. That's great. Time for myself. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's awesome. No, that's amazing. You know, actually that's one of the questions that people often ask me and I have it here written down, but it's people always ask me.  So what advice would you say to someone when, when is the right time to leave your job?  Well, it's not for the faint of heart. And I don't think I almost want to say it's like, you know, like having a baby, it's never the right time. You know, you're, this is your baby. It's never the right time. You're going to learn through the process and it's like marriage. Like you don't get married when you're rich. You kind of want to build a prenup, right? I like it. So the thing is, is that it's, it's never the right time.   You're going to fail. And I mean, it hasn't been easy. It was very, very difficult. Like I said, I was young. I was young and ambitious, gutsy, you know, like most of my colleagues, they retired from the federal government or they retired from the military and then they went and started their business. So they're in the eight a program now. I graduated in 2014 and I almost lost my shirt. Like I couldn't keep the lights on. But the thing is, is that I, I, I lived through it. You know, I lived through it. And so it was very difficult and, you know, it's been an uphill battle, but I, I was in it. Like this is my baby. I started this baby. I have a purpose. And I think that's another thing having your why. What's your why for doing it? Now tell us about that. Because we don't, we don't often hear those stories of. I almost lost my shirt. And it's what's interesting is in going back and doing the research for my upcoming book, Seekers of a Gupcon mind, I've realized that since my start of the podcast, two of the companies that I had on my show have since closed their doors. Well, tell us about the difficult times because, you know, I haven't had any, many people talk about the difficult times specifically.  So what happens on the down, what happened? How did it start coming down? What changed? Because I know you want at the beginning, you want some million dollar contracts in the beginning of 05 and, you know, with your hub zone, you want another million dollars with the 8a and some other stuff. What happened? Right. And that's the point. I think that most people don't talk about, you know, losing your shirt. And I said, I almost lost my shirt. I actually did. I lost my shirt. And I couldn't keep the lights on. But I say that to say, I remember when I got my first Walter Reed contract, my first sole source from Walter Reed. And I, it was like the Cotar somebody, they said, yeah, in five years, you won't be around. Because that is what is indicative of the 8a program. So you, you do well for nine years. And then after that, you can't stay alive because no, you're not getting sole source. You can't compete in the open market, or you haven't prepared yourself to compete in the open market. Then if you get to a certain size, you're not mid-size.   So those companies that, that make it through the 8a program, I take my hat off to them because I know how difficult it is. So what I had to do was I had to reduce my infrastructure.   I mean, there were so many things and it's, it's a difficult process because you don't know what to expect. You don't know if you're going to be able to sustain even the cuts. So what you're saying is during a time where you were in the 8a program, you did, everything was great. Right. And then when you stopped out, when you got out of the 8a program is when things started going south. Right. Things started going south. And the thing is, is you think you're doing everything right there. You know, you can do everything right. You can prepare for graduation. You can come. You can prepare to mentor someone else. You can do all the right things that doesn't mean it's going to work. To have a plan A, B and C. And then they may, you know, none of those may work. And that's what we were talking about prior to the podcast is that. I mean, I was a part of this stage and what our chair, he was like, you could be doing all the right things, but you could be leaning against the wrong wall. You know, you're doing. So it's no magic bullet. You have to try. You have to put your best foot forward. And if those things don't work, then you have to be able to bring things back in. So that you can stay alive and make those hard decisions. And one of the hardest decisions I had to make. It was one of our COO's. She helped my children with their homework. And when I had to let her go. My youngest son was so worried about her. He was so upset that he was so worried about her.  You're going to be sitting on the curve. We have these unnecessary cuts, you know, and people. How old was, how old was he at the time? Ah, let's see. I don't know if he was in maybe middle school. I'm just wondering what child would be so worried about the. Because if this person has wound up with you, like she basically. She's with you for what? 10 years. Yeah, she was, she was one of my, one of my first contracts I worked to read. Okay. She worked on the contract. Then I brought her into the office to work in my office. And she wasn't the COO at the time. So she grew, she worked her way up. And the house that I live in today, I think she found this house. I think, and I think she went and cleaned out my, my previous, my townhouse. And so she became a part of the family and you know, she was married, she had no children. She was okay. I mean, she had lived a good life. She was okay. We weren't, we weren't, but, but that's what happened. And people resent you. You know, I know that people have probably some more stories about me because of it. Like, well, why didn't you just let me take a pay cut? I couldn't afford a pay cut. I had to cut the bleeding. You know, I had to. I mean, what happened? How did you, did the contracts just start drying up? Well, yes. Some of the contracts started drying up. What else happened? One of the good things that really saved me was that I ended up getting on a full and open army wide local attendance contract and that kind of fed me as the other contracts were drying up. So that was a saving grace that I was able to do that. But yeah, they started drying up some of the, the schedules I was working on, didn't go through some of, like you have consultants working with you and you paid them and you never get the contract. I mean, it was just a lot of things that went on, like on top of raising three boys. So I'm really thankful for the process. I'm not upset about any of it. I'm thankful that I'm, I'm here to have this, you know, podcast interview with you that we, we made it through. And we're, it's still uphill battle, but where we're still here, the doors are still open and we're still ready to do business. Wow. That's, that's a good story. Thank you. No, I, I, I, you know, again, when they, when, when you read the books, they said you can learn some things from success, but you can learn a whole lot more from failure. And I have a lot of, I was actually taking notes myself and right now some good points. Why do you think it is, and I, and you did give some points about this, but why do you think it is that the eight eight companies don't make it beyond eight A. I think sometimes you're pigeonholed into certain areas. Okay. I think one of the things is preparing for eight A. I mean, for graduation that you prepare for graduation. And, and SBA is really good with that. They want you to prepare for graduation. They try to make sure that you're prepared for graduation teaming, because like I said, I was the rainmaker. All of my contracts, I was the prime. There was like not one contract. If I was a sub, it was very rare and it did not bring me much money.  So the other thing is, is I went at it alone. I mean, like I said before, I was the rainmaker. I didn't have a lot of partners.  There were some large companies that sought me out and we tried to win some things together. We did not. It's just, you know, it's business. It's a roller coaster. You have to ride.  And when it comes down, you have to ride it. You're screaming going up and you scream it out. That's true. That's true. That's true. I like that when you scream it going up and scream it out. You know, that's, that's true. That's very good. I always tell people, I said, look, winning a contract is very exciting and very terrifying. Yes. Because now you, you've won a contract. Yes.  Right. Yeah. And that's when it hits you and it's like, okay. Now from my observations, the last four years, speaking with people and hearing what you said about the program, you know, my belief is that while they, they try and do a really good job of the application for a day, I think the government does a poor job on the education of when is the right time to get into the program. And you admit it that when you first start, you didn't know anything, right? You came out of the government. Right, right. Okay. And so for me, I think that a lot of the companies that go into a day, they're told by contracting the officers. They're told by P tag. They're told by all these people that a day is the holy grail of getting contracts. And so they never learn how to start a run a business. And a doesn't teach you how to run business. Well, I think you're absolutely correct. But I think I started, I got into the eight a program at the right time. Yes, I did. And the reason why I say that I did is because I came out the gate with a contract like I did. Yeah, you were ready to go. You were ready. Right. I was ready. But that's why you're also been here for 19 years. Right. Right. I was ready to go out the gate.   But when we talk about what the culture said to you about all the eight a's not, you know, when they graduate losing and not being in business. So you think that's a good, that's that some part of the reason. Like you said, because they're not ready or they were never ready. Right. They were never ready to be in business in the beginning. Well, I think that the eight a program spoils you. Higher. You are able to get. And things of that nature. So I think it can spoil you and that if you don't have the right people around you preparing you to do the right thing so that when you do graduate, if you have these full and open competition, you have these contracts in place that are not eight a. And so small business, full and open things of that nature, GSA schedule. So I just think that, that, you know, you can become dependent on it. And when it's gone, you know, you're used to living at, you know, a certain standard and right. And then now you no longer have that. You have to change things or you have to invest. You have to take your eight a money and invest it back into your company so that you can build. So you can continue to build.  Cause I mean, you know, you could be 20 million and lose one contract. That could be 10 million.  You lose another one.  You know, that's a big step. Exactly. That's a big step. So those are the things that could happen with government contracting. I mean, you could be at one million and get a contract for 32. You know, you're at 32 million just overnight. So those are the things that happen. And that's the beauty of it. That's why we do it. That's why we stick with it because, you know, it's good. We're the crazies. We're the crazies. We're the crazies and it's good when it's good. It's like, so you, you have this, this relationship and he's great when he's great. And he's bad when he's bad. Okay. No, no, I love it. I love it. Well, so now coming out of it, how are you able to rebound? Rebuilding myself new relationships because that's the other thing, Eric. A lot of my contacts are elderly or they, they, they're deceased. I mean, so yeah, they're, they're a great role in government contracting has changed. And so people retire. It's just, so now I'm meeting new people and just kind of redeveloping myself. And I even had the opportunity to be a part of the SBA Emerging Leaders Program. I think that was, was huge in 2016. And then I was a part of the vet biz ladies 2019 Genesis cohort. And that was with 29 other business women and entrepreneurs. And so those things are invaluable. Those are the things that help you to keep going to build new relationships and to just rebuild. Okay. No, no, it's great. Now, let's go into some of the things. Having been in a brown business 19 years. Can you tell me something that was hard when you started in business? That's still hard today. Writing proposals. Proposals are tough. In the office. I've done some all nighters. I feel like, you know, how they said, Beyonce forgot to eat. She was on tour. And she was just going and going. I mean, I've been on stage like that. Put no proposals. So that whole proposal process is still hard. I mean, you got to get it right. You got to answer the mail. You got to answer the mail. That proposal is tough. You mentioned that you were in emerging leaders and the vet biz lady cohort. What other training resources have you had along the way to help you in dealing with your ups and downs of being a business? Well, I was a part of this stage. And so you keep mentioning this. I don't know this. Yeah, it's an international CEO advisory board. And so, like, it's huge, but it's nothing like it works for being in business. But I mean, like you get a lot of coaching and all of those things. I was a part of, I think the Annapolis chapter. It isn't what you have, Eric, with God con giants, because it's strictly focused on government contracting. And that's where a government contractor needs to be needs to be with you in your organization because you focus on government contracting, whereas this stage, they focus on all types of government. I mean, not government, but entrepreneurs from. They're probably so they're more like my entrepreneurs organization or entrepreneurs network. Yes. Okay, right. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, that was great, because it's lonely at the top, you have other people that you can talk to, you know, we get we had to check in. We checked in once a week, we would discuss how we were doing mentally, emotionally, physically, yes, all of those. Yes. And now it's more like accountability. Yes. And we would rally around each other and, you know, goals for our business and so on and so forth. But that didn't help me get government contracts. No, no, no, I agree with you. So, so that helped you with your sanity of being a business. Yeah, that helped me with my sanity and I had to pay for it. Yeah, no, I know those programs are not cheap. Exactly. Exactly. So just self development. The other thing I did that I'm so thankful for is that I started working out. Like, I noticed that a lot of people that were in government contracting, they were dying of heart attacks strokes and all kinds of crazy things because of the stress level. Right. So I just started dedicating time to myself.  I mean, like when I was younger, I was athletic or, you know, that kind of thing but then I started just working sit at my desk, you know, these late nights these early mornings so on and so forth. But once, you know, things started changing, I started just to invest in me, invest in my education, I invested in my health, because that's my model health as well. So I really believe that. So I started running Haines Point and hitting the stairs and, you know, Martin Luther King Memorial, I was running all of that jump rope, all of those things because it keeps your mind clear and it keeps you young and just gets oxygen to the brain and it helps with so many things and it keeps your immune system. So that that really, I can't, I can't emphasize it enough with women, especially because we carry so much, you know, we're not just running a business we're running a household we're doing a lot of other things that that men don't have to worry about that that we have, you know that we carry with us. Let's speak on that same subject matter. How do you feel.  Did you see that feeling that pressure at all. Over time I became, I was a little closed. So I just put on my power suit, and you know I kept my head up and, and I was very close like I'm much more open now because I've been around longer and I've had some ups and downs and I think it makes you more personable, but no matter to I was pretty close and very just about the business. I was just about the business so with that being the process, I don't think people can get close to me, and I felt like I had something too high. You know, I was a single parent, I didn't want people to know my business I didn't want them to know my struggle that look, I am competent. I'm just as good as anyone else. I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, and I don't have the background that someone else may have, but I'm going to die trying. And I'm, you know I can do it I've done it, you know I have the track record, so on and so forth. So now I think I'm just in a different place, and I'm more comfortable with myself. So I feel like women, we have a lot to contend with. But I also the end and we're also probably misunderstood. Okay. Yeah, sometimes women are misunderstood of why I'm so close or why I was, you know, because I was hiding that I'm carrying this, this weight that I have to deal with all these other things so I don't want you to see that I just want you to see a professional I want you to see a business woman, and I want you to treat me as such. Right, right. No, that's fair. That's fair. When your business was on the down slide, let's say, who are the people that were encouraging and supporting you and what were they saying. Or if it's easier who were the people that were not so encouraging and not so supportive and what were they saying. Is that easy? I don't really know. I mean, I'm going to say this, when I first started my business, and I was making millions. I remember my mom not realizing that I was making millions right she still saw me just as her daughter and it was no big deal. And then I remember when I was going through it, and I was so distraught and frustrated. I remember her telling me this to keep going. So I know.  I'm the only one that that, you know, has a college degree I'm the only one that started a business. So, you know, I think that she was proud, you know she was proud and she was willing to do anything she can do to help me. I remember one time I was getting sued for a million dollars, and I could not sleep.  I mean, I mean, she didn't have anything but it was just shared shared compassion shared understanding and so after I hung up with her. Well, while she was talking I realized I'm just going to call my lawyer in the morning.  So I say it's unlikely people that it's not going to be someone who's, you know, that's been doing it and they understand they you know they don't know it's your role you have to travel it so it's always going to be different for each one of us the thing that I did you probably won't do but just knowing that you can do it. I was I was sued for the same thing before so I've been there before I know it's like not to sleep and I know. In fact, I wrote my first book while going through my lawsuit. I said, Well, I guess this government contract thing isn't going to work out. It was, it was actually a private contract but I figured construction. I said, Well, I guess I'm not getting construction so work on writing a book. And so I actually worked out my first book in that time. Yeah, so I have to write my book about it now. Yeah, you should write your book. I mean, you've never heard people say writing a book is therapy. Yes, yes, actually like journaling. You're getting your thoughts of putting my paper and you're not holding it inside. But the thing about that Eric is is that I have like to know him. So there's I mean you could write a book about that situation. You better get started then now. That's going to make me money. You asked me about what are some of the things that people get when I leave my show, you become encouraged that you could do other things you could do your business and work and then also do this other stuff on the side. Wow, I think I'm a pretty good example of that where I do contracts but then, you know, I do this other stuff and give back and help people on the side so you can write your books. Yes, and you're good at. I'm going to have I'm going to hold you to it. We're going to make that our resolution for you to work on your first book. Once you give me the title, then I'll start working on it. We wrap this up. We're going to wrap this one up and I'll help you with a title. Okay, that will was today at the 19. Okay. Yeah. All right, we'll do that. We'll hold you to it. So we talked about exercise. We talked about eating healthy.  Let me ask you something. So what would you change if you had to go back and do it over again. I would perhaps change my attitude thinking that I wasn't going to be able to live through it, because at the time, you don't think you're going to live through the things that you go through and then you're on the other side of it. And you're like, wow, I made it through that. So I think I wish I knew what I know now that that you're going to make it through this. But one of the things that I noticed Eric is that it helped me to be to think outside the box. Like I learned so much. And I was able to do so much more because I had to deal with the difficulties that you don't think that you can do it like they say the mother of invention is necessity. I think so I had to become inventive, creative. Right. I agree with you, you know, 1000%. I just have a hard time. How do we explain that to other people who've never been through it. Right. How do you, how do you, how do you have someone become at ease with the so called failure. I think you have to tell your story. And I think that that's therapy like even me talking to you about it has been therapy for me. And I think that sometimes if you have a safe place where you can tell your story and be vulnerable so to speak, and allow yourself to get it out of how you feel because it's natural to fill those things. I think if you have a safe place where you can talk about it to those who they experienced it with no judgment, because that's the other thing the judgment zone. So, if you feel like there's no judgment we sign a non disclosure you're not going to repeat it. Right, right. What about the people that, again, they're afraid, right, fear, fear of failure, we get the fair they haven't even failed, they're afraid to do to do something because of the fear of failing. What do you say to them. Well, maybe you shouldn't do it then if you're not afraid. Just let it go. No, I'm horrible. That's terrible.  Hey, look, maybe you're not cut out for this. You know, That was actually said to me when I was going through it. They said, Well, maybe government contract and isn't for you do something else. And, and, you know, that's, that's something to think about that's something to think about. And it didn't come from a bad place. It hurt. But it was true that maybe, you know, you have to give me some other ideas. In other words, they were saying I'm going to give you some other ideas I didn't ask for the ideas, but they're like I'm going to give you some other ideas.   No, no, I do hope to change that one day, but not today. No. Right, right. That's not the first thought. I mean, we have to go to the schools and, you know, on career day talk about it so that they can understand. Because that's why I ended up getting into government contracting is because of exposure. Had I not been exposed to a minority owned business and work for them that I would have never started. Same here. Same here. No, absolutely. However, I, you know, I have the utmost belief and sincerity that our government needs us more than ever now. They need good people to come into the space. And so that's, that's one of my reasons for continuing to spread the word and the education. Because despite all of the turbulence that you've experienced, the, the majority of these companies out here for 200 companies are feeding off of government contracts. Right. So there's something good about it. And a lot of people, a lot of corporations have started their organizations like Nabisco off the backs of government contracts, like Palantir, okay, SpaceX. So these organizations were funded, supported and built, turned into major, you know, international companies because of US government contracts. You're absolutely correct. And over and above, small business contracting isn't steadily increasing. We exceeded $130 billion 2019 2020. And that's more than an NFL and the NBA combined. Wow. So for me, I think that it's, I don't think you can ever say enough about government contracting. Because if we get the right people in here, we get and we start educating the kids in the schools, then we can attract top talent into the space into this field, and to continue to help our government improve and do all the wonderful things that it does for its citizens. Yes, and Eric, and working for those companies help that will help a lot to build up their experience so that when they do decide that they want to go into government contracting that they have that experience they work for Fortune 500 company they've seen government contracting working, you know they've seen the intricate parts of it. Okay, let me change the subject. It's a question I've been asking recently that has created some unique answers. Okay, if you've heard my podcast you probably heard me ask this recently on a newer episodes. Name your happiest purchase that you make recently from Amazon. Okay, so listen to this. Okay, I am the Amazon queen.  I absolutely don't go outside. Right. Okay, Amazon delivers everything. Okay.  I ordered a phone case for my new iPhone 12. I've ordered food, a holder for my, my cell phone and for zoom meetings and everything. There's nothing that I haven't ordered from Amazon.  Yeah, right. You know, no, how could you possibly be partly because imagine you have to drive your car right into the store. You have to bag it or let them bag it then you have to carry it out put it into the car. And bring the box or the bags into the house, as opposed to letting in your doorstep.  But yeah, I mean, it's the best thing since last brand. Right. Well, well, well, you know, it's interesting. We didn't even talk about no Amazon is wonderful. That's why they're, you know, they're worth it. Look at that. See, there you go.  Look at this thing. My camera, all my lights, everything here. So, now, there you go. You're in the healthcare space what other industries sectors are you in healthcare services. Mainly staffing. Okay, yes, it staffing administrative staffing. Okay. And what kind of things are you looking for now like what kind of what areas are you in what where do you want to go, you know, how do you want to expand your brand and reach. Well, I really, I mean, out of all the things I've done, healthcare has been my bread and butter. That's the one thing that stuck with me with care staffing. Yes, healthcare staffing. And I talked about local attendance, which is temporary positions.  The one thing that I really want to tap into is travel nursing. It's a billion dollar industry and there's only two companies that have half of that. There's two. Yes, there's only two companies that have half of it. And so I really want to work the travel nursing a little more. I had a subcontract with one of the bigger companies doing travel nursing so building up my database on travel nurses and also providing the lodging, because when I was working with the doctors or locals, I would ask the facilities, well, do you have a place they could stay because we have to provide housing, you know, per diem, and all of those things and that's the same case with travel nursing. So I really want to tap into travel nursing. We have a couple of our students in our government program that our staffing and one in particular work with nurses. Really? Yeah. Yeah, and we've done with behavioral health is is huge. That's a huge thing we've done. Yeah, and, and the behavioral health of really, I mean that that's close near and dear to my heart. Yeah, let's talk offline about the behavioral health I have some experience in that area. Okay, sounds like a plan. Yeah, that's good.  What do you say to the people listening we say to the new entrepreneur listening that's taken. I don't know if I want to go through that, you know, or sounds like fun right is it fun. Is it not fun.  Do you think it was worthwhile. Do you think it was worth it all. Yes, I was a stone throw away from my children. My office was like five minutes from my house. My children school was five minutes from my office. I mean like basically I'm being facetious but I could hear my children, like I could get to the school. When I got into my house, I mean I was hands on with my three boys. So, and sometimes I had to put hands on my three boys, but I was definitely hands on. And so, I have no regrets, it got me to raise my three boys, and I think it was worth it even the down was worth it because it brought something out and me, and it taught me that it's not all about business, it's about relationships, it's about family, it's about, you know, just giving back, it's more than just government acting. It's really about those relationships that you build along the way, and what you learn. And like, I wouldn't take it back, I wouldn't take it back. Right. Yeah, I think it's about the experience. And for someone who's interested and thinking about it, you have to do it when it's ready, when the right time for you, you know, I mean you can't decide oh I'm going to do it because Roberta did it and she was successful and she lived through it. Because if you don't live through it, and you know, don't, you know, I don't want you to say well she did it. Everybody's story is different. And so government contracting is awesome, especially for minorities. I think it's a great place for minorities. I am a product of the government of the government's programs, and it's been very good to me and without those programs I wouldn't be here today to speak on this podcast. And that that is one thing that I always tell people this, for me, I have not seen any other programs like this in the world, right in any field in any industry that support small businesses and I've traveled to other countries, and people said, you have what you got a program where like they said, what do you have. And they just don't have this in other countries in the same form shape capacities where they actually promote small businesses promote entrepreneurship. Like you said, even, even if you if it's for just nine years it's still nine years is a long time. You had a lot of opportunity to make whatever kind of money you want to make in that timeframe, right, and to build whatever type of organization you want to build.  Right. And that's what I say, like, even when I was going through it. I said, no one can take that from me, no one can take those nine years from me no one can take the 19 years from me, you know, it wasn't all peaches and cream, but it's my story it's my experience is my journey, and no one can take that from you. Before you started working for the government. Can you tell us like a odd place that you worked up before an odd job, maybe in high school or college. Oh my goodness. Okay, so in high school I had so many great jobs. I get to only say one. We want to we want to make you more normal. Okay, so let me tell you, I worked at Roy Rogers. It's like they sell fried chicken and biscuits and all that. Okay, so I worked at Roy Rogers, and they used to make this strawberry shortcake, and they will put a biscuit at the bottom of it and then ice cream and they will put the strawberries on top it was the best thing ever. So I worked there. I also worked at the grocery store at super fresh. And so I was really good I was a cashier, and I was the best like I can get you to my mind really really fast bag your groceries really really fast. If I ever go to the grocery store I'm always like these people, they just can't do it. And then when it's time to do so check out I'm not that good. I was really really good. So, I did that and then I worked at rib runners on Columbia Pike in Arlington, Virginia.  Yes, but the beauty of it is I was in high school when I worked there, and I was running the place like I knew how to cook I knew how to answer the phones I knew how to do so much like, while I was at rib runners so that was like and then I even helped the owner son, open up a bar in, oh man I want to say, Springfield, it was in Springfield. So I helped him with that store, you know showing them how we do everything on the, in the store in Arlington. And then from there, let me tell you where else I work. I worked at the Macy's. I worked at the Macy's City, when it first like opened. Yes, I was in high school there. You know, so I had some pretty good jobs and I was good at everything I did. No, well, and that that's, that's probably why like you said you're still working today you had good work ethic. Thank you. Yeah, no that's true. That's true. If you weren't doing this, what do you think you'd be doing. Well my kids say that I would be a good motivational speaker. It's the funniest part about it, that so my middle son thinks I'm great at motivational speaking. So my youngest son thinks I'm horrible because all I do is give him a motivational speech but I don't help him get anywhere. He's like okay right now what do I do. Now what I do. I kept you up now go do it. I like that he's like you'd be great voices but okay now you got me motivated now what do I do that. Exactly. And my oldest son doesn't want to hear it. He's like, are there ages now.  Well you said one was 24 so I mean, so I mean it's seven and five years between the baby so I'm not telling. And he's 23 so that get that. The youngest is 23. 23. Okay, all right. So people do the math on that. I started my business when I was 30. Nice. But you jumped out you jumped out there. Yeah, I was a little disappointed too. I wanted to be like I started in my 20s I wanted to be able to say that was 30 years old. I mean, it's okay but I wanted to I was like, I missed it. But that's that's I think that's great that you're thinking back then did you did you always want to start a business where I just came out of necessity, like you said. Um, I think I did, but I am like I said I came from a family of eight.  And it was very difficult. It was very difficult but the beauty of it is is that although we were poor. We lived in Arlington, we didn't own our own home, but I was in a good education system. And so I think that helped me out a lot because my mom wasn't in a position to help me with homework. I mean like I never had a parent sit down and help me do my homework. And so I think that the educational system in Arlington was so great because I was in English as a second language so that I can learn to read so that I would be able to read yes, because you didn't have the parent at home. You know, like what I did with my children they were able to read at a very young age, because I was involved. My mom was a homemaker.  And so, and that so I'm thankful that I was in that environment, because I think that helped. And that's why I say, I feel like I'm a product of the government's programs because you could be in Virginia you could be on section eight. And you could be living right in a neighborhood with other homes and you know no one would know you get to go to the same school so on and so forth. So I think that the government has so many great programs if we take advantage of them. You know that that people that are in inner city programs for the children, education, all those things will get you to the next stage. But I wanted to be a school teacher. The one I wanted to be a school teacher and I told my oldest brother and he told me that no, they don't make enough money. So he shot my dreams down.  Right.  You take people children. Yes. So my mother was like, no, you will not be a social worker. So now I hire social workers and I hire all of these professionals to work for me. That's good. That's good. My sister recently said she's always want to be a cafeteria lady. Okay. Yeah, she says she loves it because she get to talk to the kids, like when they come to the lines. And you get like she says, which makes a lot of sense. The cafeteria lady is the only one that knows all the kids. Right. Right. The teachers don't have their classrooms. Right. Sometimes the security guards knows, you know, but I mean really the cafeteria person sees all the kids come through the lines. So she says he interact with all of the kids. Eric, Eric, that's such a beautiful person to be because I still remember the camp. Because the days you don't have money, you know, they let go. Yeah, make sure you get your favorite milk because I didn't like chocolate. I don't like chocolate. So she made sure I got my milk and I didn't have milk and all of those things. And so that act of kindness. It just makes your day so much easier. But I got a top one. I got one to talk for you. Okay. Mr. Custodian at our school was amazing. Like, all the students knew him. Yes, Mr. Porter. He like really took that school. I mean anything that happened, you knew Mr. Porter was going to tell. Well, that's what I brought up. I brought a custodian there. They're also very well known. And then when you get to high school is the security guards that you know, right. And that's the other thing I was like most likely not to succeed.  I don't believe it. I would look it up but I know you won't tell me the year so we're going to leave it low. So listen, let's we're wrapping up here. I know the people probably, you know, there, there's still a lot of questions and we only get I only get one hour to talk to you. So I know you've got a bunch of stories to share and tell and we're going to have to save that for another time to come back because I know in that 19 year journey. I mean there's a lot of. And that that we can't possibly cover in this timeframe but again I want to be mindful of your time and also people listening to this shows just share some parting words for folks out there. Any quotes that have helped you or touched you along the way sayings things like that, that again will turn this will be your motivational part to give back. Believe it or not, believe it or not, 50 cents book, the puzzle harder that really touched me he has a lot of quotes like in the beginning of each chapter. And some of them are like, you know, be the first person arrived at the office and I remember when I worked for me, I would even. Oh my you have the book. Well, I have so I have this one has a lot of quotes in it. I have a hustle hard I have that one on audible. But that hustle harder. You read this one. I read some of it. I didn't read the whole book, but but the hustle harder really touched me because he went through the bankruptcy, he went through so much and he was able to overcome all of it and it just really motivated me the other person that motivated me a lot was Perry believe it or not. He said that you know hold on to your business, because your dream and your company is like an answer to somebody else is tied up into somebody else's dream, or somebody else's vision, and their life, and it's true because had Mr being of L&E, and I had his business, I wouldn't be here today. And he in that company, it put out so many entrepreneurs that are government contractors to this day. Big time government contractors, we were young, we were vibrant and we work for him, and he wanted us to become entrepreneurs he didn't hold us back. And like the, you know, retired Colonel, Deborah Scott Thomas, if she didn't have her business if she didn't have that dream, I wouldn't be in a position, I wouldn't have been here. And so she would always say, your success is my success. And so it's true. And so I want to be the Lindbergh beings and Deborah Scott Thomas of the world and help other young entrepreneurs to live their dreams. Whatever that may be, if it's not government contracting whatever it may be, but at least you can look to me and say, Roberto was there she did it, you know, and I can do it too. Wow, that's great. How does the one reach you. Oh, it's www.amora.com. And you can reach me at info at Amora.com. I'm going to share that site real here. If you're leaking it's a m o o r er.com. You got it. You're also on LinkedIn as well. Yes. Okay, and just give us that email address one more time and we'll have it we'll have it on our notes page but just for people that. Okay, it's info at Amora a m o o r er.com. So Amora is Roberta more. So I took the a at the end of Roberta and I put it at the beginning of more, and I took the R from the beginning of Roberta, and I put it at the end of morse that's how you got a more. And I mean, I don't know if we're still recording but I said I'm like Tina Turner, that the only thing I got was my name so this is, this is not my name this is his name. So I kept my name. Grab three more boys. All right. No, that's great. That's great. Now listen, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your story coming on. I would love to get into more details with you on a future episode I really I am. I'm more the guy that's interested in the stories of not just the rise but you know the other side of the coin. Like I said I have my own story that I experienced. And we have a lot of things in common I went through a million dollar lawsuit. I rose it millions of dollars came back down was sued and so. We share a lot of similarities and, and one of the things that Jim Rome says is if you know you're going to get millions of dollars you better become a millionaire and meaning that your mindset your habits or activities and all those other things. And that's what I hear you talk that's what I hear when you hear like the 50 cent talk that's what you are, you're becoming that person that's ready to receive that. And so, you know, that's kind of where we all were at and now we're coming back into that, that second round, so to speak, or some people third round. But yeah, definitely. Like you said, necessity will make allow you to do some really creative things. Yes. And I love that you're all about your creative things that you did. What you know this is your this was your warm up. Oh, and it does take me some time to warm up so thanks for your warm up so thank you so much for coming on today I appreciate it. And thanks for being on here. Thank you so much for having me it was a pleasure. Alright, take care. YouTube.


Next, we're going to hear a video that was sent to us by someone who I'm sure most of you are familiar with, Professor Vijay Prashad, who's an historian, journalist, commentator, and intellectual. He is Executive Director of the Tri-Continental Institute for Social Research and the Chief Editor of Left Word Books. Emily, if you'd be so kind as to share your screen, here we go. I'm very grateful to join Code Pink on this day, 20th anniversary of the attacks on September 11th on the United States, several targets in the United States. I'm pleased to join Code Pink because after the attacks took place, which killed over 50,000 people, terrible tragedy for many people, working class people in New York City, people who are cleaning the buildings, and so on. In the aftermath of that, the United States government began to prosecute at least two wars, a war on Afghanistan and then a few years later a war on Iraq. And Code Pink, of course, stood firmly against both of those catastrophic wars. Two wars, incidentally, which the United States, by all measures, lost. The United States was ejected from Iraq in 2011 when the Iraqi parliament refused to allow US troops extra-legal permission to operate in Iraq. Of course, the United States remains in northern Iraq under the jurisdiction of the Kurdish autonomous authorities, but by and large the United States was kicked out of Iraq and then in August of 2021, the United States had to precipitously withdraw as Taliban forces gathered and then returned into Kabul. Two wars, which few in the early years, days, were willing to take a stand against. Code Pink emerged as a force to take a stand against them. Thinking about this day, September 11 or 9-11 in the lexicon of the United States, 20 years later, a difficult attack by 19 men, mostly Saudi men, trained by Al Qaeda, that hijacked four planes, two of them went into buildings in the World Trade Center, one hit the Pentagon, third by the courage of people on board the flight, was brought down in Pennsylvania and so on. We commemorate that day when there was this attack on the United States, an attack which provoked some soul-searching in the immediate aftermath. People wrote cover stories of two kinds, the immediate cover story that emerged was, we're all American, you know, new some American as the French papers put it and so on, solidarity with the United States and so on. The second introspection, deeper perhaps, came from even mainstream outlets like Time Magazine asking a fundamental question and the question was phrased in this blunt way, by the way, it's a very blunt framing. They asked, why do they hate us? Why do they hate us was the question asked. Why do they hate us? Well, today we might say, well, you know, if you're going to be doing drone attacks and kill entire families and so on, there's a lot of resentment and anger. We can say of course, yes, you're going to push economic policies of austerity where families can't get access to vaccines, intellectual property right policies, they can't get access to the COVID vaccine, the mRNA vaccine, which by all accounts is a very good vaccine. That's perhaps why people resent the United States and so on. But fundamentally, friends, the answer that didn't come in any of these stories, why do they hate us, was the truth. The truth, for instance, is that the United States did not, after 9-11, enter Afghanistan for 20 years. And therefore, this is a 20 year war that's ended. The United States has been at war with the Afghan people since the 1950s, when the US government has collaborated with far right sections in Afghanistan to undermine the process of humanization of Afghan society and statecraft, modernization of the state institutions. Something that was driven by liberals within the monarchy, including Muhammad Dawood. Afghanistan had several constitutions, the first important one under King Amanullah and Queen Soraya in 1920s. Going up to the constitution of 1964, very farsighted constitution. The United States undermining the influence of the Soviet Union right from the 1950s. In 1953, the Soviets paved the roads in Kabul, that kind of influence. The US government has tried to undermine it. And strikingly in the 1960s, the US government made an alliance into the 70s with really horrible people. Burhanuddin Rabani, for instance, the founder of the Jama'at-e-Islami group inside the University of Kabul, recruited students like Gulbuddin Haqmatyaar, Ahmad Shah Masood and so on. People of real virulence and violence against the population. The US weaponized them, made them powerful, imposed them on Afghan society. It's a very long period of disparagement of the Afghan people's right to create a dignified society into the future. The Taliban is merely a product of the alliance with Burhanuddin Rabani in the 1960s. September 11th, it's not just 9-11 in 2001. Of course, it refers as well to September 11th, 1973, when the United States imposed a coup colluded with General Augusto Pinochet to overthrow the legitimate government, popular unity government led by Salvador Yende. The United States imposed great suffering, imposed terrorism on the people of Chile, the killing of Victor Jara, the killing of thousands of students. That was also September 11th. September 11th, a terrorist attack where the United States colluded with the Chilean military against the people of Chile. It's a terrorist attack we should also talk about on this day. September 11th, 1906, the other important September 11th. In Johannesburg, South Africa, in front of a hall filled with about 3,000 people of Indian descent, Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, before he became Mahatma Gandhi, opened a struggle against the racist policies of South African government at the time. 1906, September 11th. He coined the term in public Satyagraha, action on the basis of truth. 3 September 11th. Two of them, terror imposed upon people, the people of the United States in 9-11, which then the US takes to the people of Afghanistan, imposes terror on them. September 11th, 1973, terror imposed on the people of Chile by the United States government. And then September 11th, 1906, when decent people fight back in order to create decency. Can we commemorate September 11th, 2021, make the pledge of action on the basis of truth to prevent these kind of terrible wars, these terrible coup d'etats that bring suffering upon people? Thanks a lot. I want to send my thanks to Professor Prashad for those fantastic words. I do think that they hate us for our freedoms, maybe the most pernicious lie of the 21st century. So we thank Professor Prashad for his fantastic remarks there.


Okay guys, so I've uh a few days ago I put out this This community post saying that if you got 420 likes I would use a festipene and leave the game so it did and Now I actually have to do it so I Guess it's a Which field should we do it in? I Think the best field in the game is the stump field, so All right Here we go. So I have my snail Three two One all right, so there it is I Guess let's let's get it down to like No, no, let's let's not I can't become too attached to it Time to leave the game. Thank you guys for watching and