Hey, Sue You do Better than Limburger How did you know that door was unlocked be Charlie Charlie's been here. That's not tonight's agenda. That's for item on the agenda So I talked to Interesting The price on the $85,000 that would otherwise be collected that would have otherwise been swept to the airport or into the state coffers Might well stay for us with With This seems like you on the ally there Well, he's we're getting screwed Also Michelle's pretty sure that they're gonna put the study in the T-bill It's in fact. It's in there, right? It's in the T-bill now and she asked She asked me just would it be better to have the transportation board host the study than CCRPC The transit really doesn't want to do it And they really don't necessarily want just some assembled group to do it that they have to support but they have a transportation board that we talked about on the phone and She said what do you think about them doing it's kind of in their daily way You know, I think you'd need to add some expertise to the group But one of the T board members a very close friend of mine Is a good man, so After we spoke this afternoon Bob Walsh called me said he'd spoken with made a towns and about this very issue And he said made it thinks the transportation place is perfect And so made it made a fully support the path he's going in but as long as you don't object to it If you know somebody on there that means you have an ear, so that's great This will turn you around.  He and I I don't can't remember what it was It was last year sometime and and but just in passing we're just talking about stuff And I said why don't you think about this? He says I think this is crazy. It shouldn't be this way And then I reached out to him at the beginning of the session and said, you know I talked to Pat Brandon about it about it says it would start on the house side and he said well keep me up to speed It's funny how those things work. Yeah But he just He's a transportation guy, and so he knows all those issues very very well, and he just he's always thought it was just Weird it seems like it remind me of perspective just having this conversation this committee gives us more Basic Oh The specifics about I Believe you just trying to figure out where I heard this I heard about a race track on Dorset Street. Hmm. I heard about a Fragment of a railroad that never felt finally got built, but I never heard about an airport. It's certainly not out there Pinesburg Road, so this is the Right there so that symbol I showed that to somebody once and like yeah, that used to be an airfield So this is Google Maps Sky Acres Airport and my father said that oh, yeah, yeah, there used to be an airfield back there But Google Maps has it has an old designated airstrip there. Well, there's one on Savage Island Has to play my father-in-law had one Start Which it stands one nation I'm gonna gamble that we won't have to exit and and just want to note How sad we all are for the passing of Pat Noak one of our dear counselors one of our colleagues it She died too soon Was an incredible member of this community and Will long be remembered I think for the many many things she did to support this community Including her five years on the city council We didn't always agree but I certainly respected Her zest for both life or passion for different Topics and her willingness to debate the hard questions. I'll also remember that Even though we differed on some issues, we could always go on to the next issue and Sometimes find common ground not always but but it wasn't an overriding Antagonism between I think any of the members of the council so we remember her with warmth and and love and mourn her passing and really Send I think it's appropriate to say in this instance our thoughts and prayers to Bob and the entire Noak family We will have a Time at the next council meeting will where we will remember her more formally in hopes that Bob and the family can be here But in the interim They have our our love and Emergency tonight, please exit by one of these two doors To the to my right and gather out in the parking lot to the south of the building if these doors are for any reason block Go back out into the lobby and take it right out the main doors and again proceed down to the south parking lot Tom and I will be responsible Tom Hubbard and I will be responsible for making sure the building is clear. So do not wait. Thank you. Thank you item three is the Agenda review so are there any additions deletions or changes in the order of the agenda items Seeing none. We'll move on to four With a possible executive session to receive legal guidance on matters and void involving real estate So I would entertain a motion to include David Rue Tom Hubbard Kevin Dorn and the Wheeler Park task force and Andrew Boller So Holly you want to include Holly and Holly Any discussion all in favor signify by saying aye aye, so we will move into executive session We'll be back in Hopefully half an hour. Is that what we have scheduled? 45 minutes 40 minutes Thank you Or less. Yes, we could do it at the last time Yeah a None we'll move on to number six top dog and first Say nine contest winner drawing Donna Kimball drumroll I Don't think This is about our fifth annual top dog first free-line contest And we started this program as a way to kind of help and make Rope the fact that you need to register your dogs and cats I'm trying to make it a fun way of doing so we started this program and in the five years that we started this program We have continued to increase the number of dogs and cats that we register even this year over last year So in the time when many municipalities are seeing Decreases we're seeing increases. So that's that's a good day Right now we had about 1240 dogs and cats registered this year I don't do a day and So right now Gina Gina will be ending her reign as top dog Isis is our cat And so their reign is ending tonight as soon as we draw the names Yes So all I have in here are just the tag numbers. I have no idea So we're going to start with a cast this year is a little bit different, so I have to the course of the day shaken and stir these things All day, so they can get mixed up Thank you very much very much. Thank you Since we did the cat first 224 They live in one in that cub be UKO of Luka and it is for so long the cat Do we have a picture Tag 1025 belongs to Nora King on Barrett Street Oakley, which is a So we will contact them you'll get them in and then they'll be on display in City Hall or lobby This contest will be what it is without our sponsors One guys farming yard has stepped up to the plate every year They have a great bag of goodies Pet with warehouse have been with us every year and we got a nice gift card And then Two really nice baskets Really came nice And then he'll happy tails pet resort spot came for Two years Really nicely donated to us without these sponsors this event Well on behalf of the council we want to thank those some And definitely Thanks to Judy and the other paper was able to come forth at some of the mason that that was through her so it was very nice And just so the public knows we will have a more formal recognition Scheduled for the 16th Hopefully well if her family can That's a bad time. We'll put it off until the family Thank you very much All right moving on to number seven council Reconsideration and possible approval of the garden street preferred street typical All-conner's director planning zoning Here and representing staff which also includes our project director a lot of lantern our public works director Justin rabbit is as as our memo outline We have a recommendation for a Modified approval for garden street for this typical Back a couple of years ago in 2015 the council had approved What was known as alternative five for garden street, which was a 76 and a half foot? Typical for the for the whole width At the time the preferred alternative from the consultant And from staff had really been The ideal one had been a narrower one for a variety of reasons But there were multiple unknowns in the project that at the time specifically How we would be able to treat storm water? And how much? Parking we felt that we would need to be able to accommodate on-street as the project has evolved and in working with the property owner Tim McKenzie Who's here this evening representing the property owner as well as a Snyder-Braveman? They've been able to evolve in their concepts been able to look to where the most appropriate places are to deal with storm water and able to find opportunities to put underground parking and as a result To come up with a narrower cross-section the not listed in the in this discussion is the fact that the Development review board had a first meeting a couple of weeks ago with the applicant around the subdivision Of these properties and they had some guidance that they would very much like to see the narrow right-of-way as well Down to this option for be 64 feet wide From What we're excited about is that it's able to accommodate all of the community's Goals in terms of sidewalks recreation paths street trees on-street parking without sacrificing What without sacrificing those design elements? So what we're able to do is move storm water elsewhere have a little bit less parking But again, that's able to be dealt with underground and As a result we're able to create a much more appropriate Urban environment, which is a really key element of the we think to the success of this area is to have that that feel that is the right ratio of width to building height so With that I'm happy to answer any questions We fully support this modified Resolution down to 64 feet. Okay. Any questions? Yes, Megan. I I'm very glad to see underground parking In addition to the possibility to have front porches I find that to be a very big positive out of this change my one question Are those trees? That are going to be between parked cars Is there going to be enough? Water for those trees. I always You know I teach French and so like a tree in a city. That's a very classic song song in the 1960s by Maxime Leforrestier Will those trees have enough water? One of our key priorities in looking at all of these options was to create opportunities for success for Trees to exist and so in this case the the 4b has has bulb that specifically designed to carry the trees Trees in urban environments have sort of been as in a lot of our cities been sort of the leftovers And this is a design to specifically have them be a feature So both having enough soil and water and be a present element of the streetscape which Is I think we're in agreement as a really key element of success. So we're confident on that. Yes, okay Great So yeah, is Justin looked at this at all? Yes, absolutely So for from a plowing for snow perspective he didn't have any problems with it I think the Justin has looked at everything in city center as being a an important trade between all the different desires and so when it comes to I Hesitate to put words in Justin's mouth, but in past he said Things like we have different equipment to deal with different circumstances If this is a priority for the community to have a more compact environment then that can absolutely be accommodated so He's reviewed this he was the principal drafter of this memo. So I'm comfortable in saying that he's fine with the maintenance aspects of it Okay, any questions or comments from the public on this issue Oops, all right, so we have a resolution before us Amending the city council's preferred street typical for Garden Street, and I would entertain a motion to approve the resolution So moved second any further discussion Seeing none all in favor, please signify by saying aye. All right, so that has passed. Thank you very much Thank you for your time. Okay item eight This item is a council action to cure a failure to properly warn a November 20th 2017 city council vote to close the JC Park dog park by providing proper warning for possible action Unclosing the JC park dog park At a future council meeting on a date to be determined This is an item that came to my attention and I think everyone has a copy of the November 20th the the language on that particular item item 12 Just said that council consideration of a request by a neighbor to close the JC Park dog park due to noise from barking Typically the city when we have an item that we intend to actually undertake Action on we use that word possible action so it's very clear to the public as well as the Council members that not only will there be a discussion, but there may in fact be Action or without the term action possible action Then the understanding is that it's just a conversation a discussion for Giving time for contemplation for additional input from the public and a vote at a later date so this is a I don't know if we need to there's no action on this. This is Well, no it is action to cure so what I this is asking the council do to do is to agree to Have a proper warning for action on JC Park dog park and my intention would be to time that when the dog park action our task force Has a recommendation for us then we could Consider our or reconsider our action on the dog park then when we have the recommendations from that Task force So we're not actually taking any action what we're putting we're saying we're trying to correct Mistake that we made we it was not properly warned And so we should not have taken a vote that night, but we did and the result was the park was closed our action tonight is to put off the correction of that for a period of time till the Task force can come back with a Recommendation and then we can correct that Oversight so we're not So the park will remain closed actually But we're just warning that we will take action when we have at a later date so Discussion yes Go ahead, please. No, I Was waiting for those words that that you said that the park were being closed. I guess I was waiting to hear if there was some other Possibility in the meantime, so I was just curious what you were going to say. Yeah Can I just ask how many people are here for the dog park? Okay? So I just want to say this is a result of taking action when we did and I would agree with you that I don't think we I don't think we acted in consistent with our commitment to transparency and due process So I get where we are. I'm just saying I as I said that night I think it's that's a bad precedent to take action on such a thing and to for one resident So I don't think we're gonna vacate that decision tonight That's not what you've proposed that has been done elsewhere And I don't know if the votes are there But what I heard you say chair really is that when the dog park task force comes forward with a recommendation at that time The council will then act again on the matter of the JC dog park. Yes Megan and I'm glad to that we're gonna wait for the recommendation. I'm I think that I Still understand the language to mean that action could have been taken just like item number 15 Considered to approve the following consider to close So I think we were Acting in good faith that evening It's You know an interpretation which I'm willing to accept Even though it differs from my own and I think that it's very important that we Listen to the Advice and the I would say Research that the dog park committee task force is gonna bring forth to us We've already received some advice from the chair of that task force and And I think that it just it ensures that the public process is done Just on your point on number 15 that's to consider to go into the liquor board We take action as that liquor board so that that's not inconsistent with that use the word consider versus action Well same for number 10 that are possible adoption. I mean consider with an action Either in a noun or a verb. I think I would think a majority of us would think we could have waited at least a Meeting to close the park to give more time for people to come and be heard about their concerns, but I Can't I definitely think we should have I think we acted prematurely and clearly the public felt the same way We got the petition of 270 names, I believe and some real pushback And I think we acted too quickly to open the park to begin with so we obviously differ Well, we may have stumbled a couple times, but this is to not perfect or legal are the city's legal counsel believes we need to Correct this So that's what this intention is so we're not actually going to hear from people tonight and I apologize if That's what this sounded like We have a timeline for when that task force report might be coming I think it's May 7th They wanted to bump back till May the first meeting in May I think they have a meeting this week Action will be announced for that meeting on the JC dog park Unless they've asked for an extension, right? I'm hoping that their recommendations will allow us to then look at my expectation is that they will come forward with some guidelines and recommendations for how best to Site dog parks and what are the elements that the city needs to consider and Follow through on before we cite new dog parks With that criteria we then can apply it to the JC dog park and see if it meets The criteria and maybe it might meet it for small dogs, so it would be a small dog park, you know, I don't know I'm waiting to hear from that task force And I think it's important for it to be stated again that it was not just one complaint from one person There were other people who were not in favor of the park being there the dog park being there and there was an actual Dog attack that had occurred there So there were various reasons. I think that raised concern in people's minds There were Course pat felt very strongly. I think it's on the record. So it's not improper for me to say leaving it open until an indefinite date when we would have an actual you know very thoughtful and You know well researched position and and policy that will you know, I have every reason to believe will be coming from our task force So we need to agree to do that, right? So I so I'll move that we Warn for a It's not a public hearing is it is just a no possible born for an action and agenda item on the May 7th City Council meeting for the JC dog park contingent upon report from the Parks and Rec dog park committee, right? Yes I feel like we owe them some clear expectations Is it fair to say it could be possible that we would reopen that dog park at that meeting? Or is that not on the table? I'll second so we can have a discussion. Thank you Well, I guess it is possible. I mean I I think I Guess it depends on how clear the recommendations are and if they can be Thoughtfully applied to JC park. I mean we can also ask the dog task force to Consider the recommendations and it's and how it might Define or redefine the area at JC park as a dog park whether it Should be reopened or closed and they have other Requirements So I'm not saying we will but it is possible that with that recommendation from the task force the council might Reopen the JC dog park on the May 7th City Council meeting. I Guess that's possible. I think I hope we will have a look for a gauge They want a discussion so I would encourage people who are interested in dog parks Not just JC dog park, but having some dog parks in the community come to that meeting hear the Presentation or recommendations from a report and respond to that so any further discussion? Okay Yes I'm sorry, can you come up so you can be everyone can hear you? Please and state your name. My name is Michael. It's mine. I am Helped with a petition Yes, and I would like to know I still don't understand why the dog park can't be open so if I mean, I'm sorry can't so right now You're saying the dog park will be closed will be still closed until May 7th. So why? It could be open, but it would require three votes on this But what what is I mean so you're postponing it like by four weeks So why can't you just open it now because the action wasn't properly taken? I would move to vacate the decision from the November 18th meeting and Keep the keep the park open and tell the recommendation for the dog park I would make that motion But I don't think I'm going to get a second or two other votes So to answer your question it could be reopened But I don't think you have the support of the council majority of the council right now So what is the difference on my seven then well? Because I believe on May 7th We will have the best thinking from the dog task force about what are Regarding what are the? Requirements or parameters for citing dog parks in the best way possible for the city it could include size it could include steps to Contact the neighborhood and get feedback about the their desire or Just dislike of having a dog park in a particular situation or spot It could include recommendations for hours signage about noise and control I think there's a lot of different Variables that would help address some of the concerns that have been raised by the public About dog parks. I mean we've gotten certainly feedback that neither of the parks were big enough and good enough so In an effort to and and I think we got complaints when they were at the airport Because from people who didn't want to subject their dogs to the noise of an F-16 taking off So I Just think we it makes sense in my opinion to wait till we get some thoughtful recommendations from the committee before we go forward with reopening or citing new dog parks and I again I I apologize that in our interest to Address some needs of the public and and shared values of many members of the council that this community needs more dog parks That we acted perhaps too quickly in finding land we owned moving the fences And designing a park both at Farrell Street and JC and I appreciate that it is very Confusing and annoying to have it open one week and closed another and then it sounds like maybe it might open again And I I'm sorry for that But we're trying to follow through on a process that will allow a full discussion and hopefully We will have a process in place that we can use in a number of times to develop different Dog parks in our community. Is there a question or Because I don't want to turn this into a public hearing about dog parks right now, we will I promise we will have plenty of time But I think this one is relevant to the dog park committee. Okay, why don't you come forward, please? My name is Cindy Modiano My question is what Qualifications do the people on this committee have to decide what is best for dogs and their people? There's people that are making this decision Are they city engineers or do they actually know anything about dogs and their behavior or I? Think we have some people on the committee who are familiar with dogs and their behavior I don't know if anyone is a an expert dog trainer or Care provider We are utilizing staff from the parks and rec committee and a number of people from The neighborhood who are interested and my understanding is that they are gathering Information that's available and reviewing that and using that as the basis for their conversation I mean, it's not unlike a lot of task forces that put together in the in the community You can attend the sessions to so they're open They are open and I'm sure they would appreciate if you have particular expertise To hear that I guess my only then comment is One of the things that the chair mentioned was that there was an attack at the dog park There are people in the dog community that are horribly against dog parks because sometimes get different dogs together I don't think there's a dog park in the country That has not experienced a few attacks simply because dogs on different days. It happens everybody that attends a dog park I mean I bring her she's trying to be a service dog and I bring her anyway, and I take that chance But to use that as a reason for closing a dog park Makes absolutely no sense whatsoever from what I understand the chair of the dog park task force Thinks that small dogs need it and she's researched this need a specific size park and Large dogs need a much larger park and this was a situation with a very large dog and a very small dog That's because the owners of the small dogs do not abide by the sign that says small dog Every day we've been there and you can ask anybody in well, I you know, I think those are Valid concerns and thank you for raising them. I hope when we Rediscuss this and if there's some recommendations or guidelines that the city wishes to approve that we can Include with that some, you know, education and enforcement For the dog parks because I I would agree your dog is only as good as your Ability to control them in those kinds of situations and one would hope that if Your dog is aggressive, you don't take them to a dog park, but Or fearful But I appreciate your comment I Unfortunately was not there at that meeting so I was not part of the conversation. I just heard The concerns since then and really believe we needed a more open and Inclusive conversation about this I'm sorry. I wasn't more persuasive at that meeting Yes, do have another Okay, why don't you come up to the table and then We have a public hearing that we need to start A few minutes just so I can clarify my own thoughts. Is it the council's name, please Mike? Thank you Is the council's position that Mike evened Is the council's position that the closure of the park that decision was made incorrectly or yes Okay, so we shouldn't have closed the park in the first place No, that the vote was taken was not warned. We shouldn't have closed it that night Yes, right, so the park the process for taking that vote The correct process was not followed. It was legal But the attorney Okay, so that's kind of where I'm getting a mixed message so speaking to the council Was the decision to close the park on the night the decision was made made Correctly and properly or not made correctly and properly it wasn't warned properly. Okay, so if it wasn't warned It shouldn't have been made correct Well, so if it wasn't warned and it shouldn't have been made then it wouldn't be in effect It was totally legal if you read open well There's a difference of opinion about our council for the city I'm not not leaves that I just warned when I read it It has different language and I think the the citizens of South Burlington Have gotten Used to the process we use and to read items on the agenda with a particular anticipation of what will happen during that on that item Okay, so using the standard of like a normal social Open meeting law some meeting laws and norms that the community expects yes That decision made that night is something that the council is not sitting behind now. No Meeting law it was not violated It was I'm not getting it. I'm not that's not what I'm driving at. Okay, sorry I'm not looking for like an admission of like a violation of the meeting law That's a whole bag of worms that I'm not at all getting at I just wanted to be clear that the council's vision tonight is that That night that decision wasn't warned It probably shouldn't have been made that night correct. Okay so I'll just say that she's the chairwoman. I'm gonna go with her Thank you. That's I Worked for my boss and you're the boss so I'm calling so Like if I was assessed a fine by the city and the city later decided that that fine wasn't proper I would get refunded that fine Right, that's pretty standard Probably yeah, okay If I got a parking ticket from the police department and they later figured out that I was legally parked I would get refunded, right? That's pretty standard. I think so I got arrested and I was later found like at the first hearing or whatever that I didn't do it I would get released It's pretty standard that if something is done and then they figure out the foundation is wrong Or otherwise shouldn't have been done by some manner whether it's a technicality or whatever We vacate that Why is this? Different I totally support the the context of waiting for the dog park could be to get back Totally get it. I totally am in support of that But we've waited November December January February March April To get a date to warn this to do this again later I'm just curious why We didn't just follow the rest of the standards we use and say okay, that wasn't right Reset back to the dog parks open and we'll address this when the committee comes back We've waited this long. Why not just well it didn't come to everything else. I Didn't learn this till last week or the week before all right But if I get a fine from the city and it takes the city six months to figure out that they should know find me Uh-huh as soon as you figure out that it was wrong You can fund the money Well, I guess it was a judgment call Thank you as I propose and we can't talk with the three of us outside a session But I had a conversation with the chair and one option that we could do is vacate the decision Open the dog park but warn for action two weeks from now to reclose the dog park and we just thought that would be More chaotic. I'm open to doing that But I mean if there were three of us that wanted to vacate that decision properly warned this for action at the next meeting The dog park could be open for two weeks, but then it would likely be closed two weeks from now I'm wet ready to make that motion to move to vacate that decision I move to vacate the decision of November 18th and re-worn this properly for the next city council meeting So we have a motion on I'm gonna move off the mic and my only two questions are just those two things Oh, why did it take us this long to get to the point? We're warning the next meeting for two weeks from now when we're like four months six months behind the eight ball mm-hmm and Why do we not just vacate this the first time Like this process. I appreciate the government wheels move slow. They come forward in December that would have made sense I agree with you, sir Well, but we didn't so right sorry about that. My name is trying to correct it My name is Maria more and I have to yes. Hi. My name is Maria more I Live right near it there the dog park and what I have to say is that I took time off of work to come here I broke my ankle In November so in December I couldn't walk so I couldn't get here And so like you have all these people here because of this and I respectfully ask you to listen to us I understand that you have an agenda, but you also on the agenda said that you were gonna listen to us At least that's what we understood and that's why you have so many people here It's just a thought that we took time out of our lives to be here It would be nice if you respected us too All right, well, we have a motion on the table are you ready for that vote all those in favor signify by saying aye Any post okay the motion carries I Would love to take the time to hear you today, but we're not going to so I Thank you for coming. You clearly there There's a lot of interest and I Think when we have this item in May, it will be a very full conversation So thank you. We'll move on to item 9 This is a public continued public hearing on possible amendments to the land development regulations No You're the vice chair on the clerk Thomas working on infrastructure serious stuff So yes, I didn't realize when I was put in place of being clerk. I would be sitting here Monica asked me from the planning commission And Paul Connor director of planning and zoning before you go any further may I ask a question of the director of planning is only sure What is Ms. Luisa's condition right now? her she is doing well she had she was until last Friday at the Fanny Allen facility She had a surgery on a broken leg on Friday And she returned home on Saturday to some very happy And she's beginning her home recovery. So is she constricted to is she allowed to put any weight on these? She can put leg weight on one of the legs the other one Not so much. That's the one that just had the surgery So things are looking up, but it's not the most fun week of her life I understand she has three hours of PT daily. That's what she told Ted, which is a lot Having had PT on for different things of parts of my body three hours is a long haul So thank you, but I'm glad to hear she's home. So Bring some food over or something right Well, this is the continuation of the proposed Land Development Regulation Amendments and the last time I believe we focused mostly on The first portion, which is the establishment establishment of the housing prevention standards And I believe you wanted to do some research and consideration And I think that's why we continue to today Okay, there was one we certainly had some conversation about Pardon me at the SBB evening. Well, yes Well, but we had conversation around the housing preservation and replacement standards and We also Yes, and especially in relationship to the airport and I think at that meeting we asked our council to develop position or some information about Dealing with the homes that the airport had already purchased and if they in fact could be Subject to the Contribution there's a list of exceptions in these amendments and some of those have been purchased But some of them have not necessarily there, but they are within the map And so they were already considered to be a portion or That could be an option for them. They're not necessarily purchased yet But our council's here, so could we hear from him Andrew? I think you can probably just give him space in the middle or something or pull up another chair The music is stopped You all have to cheer Andrew Bulldeck City Attorney I provided a written memorandum background on the should have been included in your council Provided to council previous to the prior to the meeting I think kind of a very broad And and you're certainly welcome to discuss it in open session if you would like I would advise in part against it as it's Attorney client and it's for the purposes of providing professional legal services to this body but you're certainly welcome to To wave that I think there I have some hesitation about discussing the the success of claims against the city in open session As that could be used later on down the road in a claim against the city That's the purpose of Attorney client, so I'm certainly willing to but I would I would advise against Discussing some of that in open session. I think there's some background information that could certainly be helpful And I know I believe Paul and Monica have some of that. Okay Clarifying questions of these exceptions and even without the exception is all this doesn't affect the airport buying these homes It's really just if they want to demolish them then they would have to pay this fine So this shouldn't have any implications for buying the home to repurpose it to resell it to re-insulate it or to whatever else One of those other options are it's only for demolitions where this is invoked. Yes This is triggered the moment. It's converted to something other than residential use. So it would be it would be demolition. It could also be Transforming it into some sort of commercial use. It would also trigger this Okay, just losing the housing Yeah, it's the housing stock that this is looking to So think they do the other things they've been talking about I forget the names of them But that wouldn't be affected because they are not destroying or repurposing Reusing changing the use of right. Yeah insulation would not trigger this Some of the easems they've discussed would not removing the beds The other thing that I raised via email. I don't mean to dominate this conversation I'm curious if there's and I don't think this says to be an executive session But what about an expiration of these exceptions? So if these exceptions were in place until 2022 Which would give or 2021 pick a date? but that would give time for During that time if the airport wants to demolish them They can figure get the new NCP with a new NEM and know exactly what they want to do on the houses They've already targeted these exceptions, but then on dates certain that would be withdrawn and they would no longer have that That portable housing fee assessment be waived Is such a thing unheard of a expiration date a sunsetting of an exception inside of an LDR like this Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely not not unheard of I think the way the 44 units and 41 houses that are in exhibit H and the proposed regulation those were set up kind of to To be the end end line of the current AIP what what's currently been opened as As eligible or named as eligible for this the buyout and demolition program I think it includes maybe Four units that were previously identified. So kind of those outlier units that are that you see when you drive by And that aren't I think I don't believe they're in any currently open AIP at the moment But they were at one point identified for demolitions Again, those are just a few outliers So So it's possible that you could have a sunset provision in there. I Don't know how much longer the airport would intend to sort of keep an AIP open For the for the acquisition process I know some it takes them, you know, three four years to finally close out an AIP the grant funds that they have And sometimes it may take even me may take less than that. I think it depends on the homes and The transactions that they have with the homeowners What is the benefit to that question time? I'm trying to figure that out my concerns If we don't include these exceptions then all of a sudden the airport or it might affect the airports purchase decisions thus I Think we might want to go into executive session from some of those discussions But basically what he advised us in that legal memo I'm just concerned that if we strip the exceptions all of a sudden that might motivate quick demo permits or Might also otherwise Frustrate whereas if you give plenty of time figure it out, but you can't destroy your houses after this time period After you know the new NCP with all the other variables that are yet to be determined That's where I'm thinking Okay Any other comments or questions for Andrew or do you want to at the end of the Meeting have an executive session to discuss that further or nothing's pressing on me, but if you all want to Yeah, like ten minutes or less That mean we hold off on any action here because I think you could hold off for two weeks Then something yeah Coming up the works So what what you could so we kind of in a little bit of a gray area with the other three proposed Amendments here to the LDRs. I know it's planning in zoning's goal to try and get those get those through because it's it's just Uncertainty and permitting right now and so I guess the recommendation would be if there's going to be a you know Try and make a decision you could bifurcate it somewhat make a decision on those three other LDRs move to continue the hearing at a later Public hearing at a later date Would be one option on the housing replacement if you It's it's a little tricky because if you decide to do an executive session on this and Want to make a decision at that point you will have already moved to continue the public hearing So I'll also say I'm comfortable with as is I just wanted to put that sunset thing out there in case that is attractive All right So I guess my point would be is if we did an executive executive session later. It probably would extend the I would recommend you to continue the hearing for now I'm just that right just that I do for another couple weeks Sandy Julie, did you want to because we did I think Megan had some questions for John for the Okay more chairs yeah Committee of the whole Sandy Julie and I'm vice chair at the affordable housing committee. I I Think something that weighed heavily on at least on me And wanting to have this list was the experience the council went through with the Kirby cottages and the affordable housing covenants and Well, I can understand councillor Chittenden's Thought about a deadline The owners of these are all people for whom there have been offers to buy and Money in grants from the FAA Correct me if I'm wrong to to purchase them Well the wheels of federal government sometimes You know proceed Expeditiously and sometimes not and there's no way we can guarantee no matter what deadline we set that things will be taken Care of for these homeowners, and I just think that for my part. I don't want to leave the homeowners in limbo I don't want to repeat of the situation where you know, the FAA comes through two months after the deadline is over So I just think that it would be good for everybody's peace of mind to and this is not a legal argument probably to put that matter to rest Leaving the exceptions. Yes Thank you. Okay well not to switch gears too much, but we did have a meeting with the South Burlington Business Association and there was there were some issues raised and an example of a LDR that was sort of confounding some of the business owners relates to the bicycle parking standards and They were concerned about Going for a what appeared to be a permit that was a pretty Small change to their building whatever or use or use and They then would find out that their bicycle racks that they'd had for however many years We're not in compliance and so along with getting the permit to do whatever it is They wanted to do retile the bathroom or something. They also would be required to Rip out their bicycle Parking and put in the new ones and they felt that they just thought that that was Kind of an overreach they they certainly understood if they were really so I guess I'm trying to clarify the intent of this Had you intended that with small changes not a Demolition or it's a brand new building or it's a new brand new use To have the old bicycle racks ripped out and and new ones replaced Well, let me I can take a shot of the first half of that question that Did I get that right now? Yeah on the functionality so as it currently stands under the current regulations Anything that triggers a change to the site plan triggers the need to replace the bicycle rack So if somebody's moving around the parking or they're expanding the building or if there's a change of use within the building Those are all triggers of site plans Inter renovations by themselves are not a trigger So the example of switching at the tiles that that would not be an example But the other ones it goes from being an office base to a warehouse then yes, it does vice versa. Yeah, or vice versa That is consistent with the With the other things that historically have fallen into the same category things like dumpster enclosures having Downward-casting Extra lighting fixtures those kinds of things they fall into the same Category of whenever there's a update to the To the site plan that those things need to be addressed The current round of amendments does Have some modifications to address at least some of the concerns that were raised The bike pad committee we shared some of the we shared the concerns that had been raised last fall with the bike pad committee and then with the planning Commission and some of the changes that are being proposed in this round are To state that if the existing bicycle rack as long as it's not made out of wood that It can be reused it needs to be affixed To a to a solid surface so it can't be sort of up back in the wood somewhere, but it can be reused As long as the bicycle can be attached to the frame in at least one place So that's a Modification to understand that there are a fair number of racks that are currently out there Is that because you we already received this feedback at playing in zoning? We did receive a fair amount of feedback when this first came into effect. Yes last summer It was energetic feedback The There's some additional guidance in here some of the feedback that we got early on I think was also that Different companies had slightly different specs for what the racks are and some folks were thinking that they had got the right thing and then the guidance from the American Bicycle Pedestrian Association is different from what manufacturers did so we tried to find the lowest common denominator and make that more clear But to your question of Intent there and maybe Monica could speak to this somewhat But there had been a fair amount of discussion at the bike pad committee about and then eventually the planning Commission about What's the overall intent and the Expected pace of turnover towards having more bicycle racks in the community and appropriate bicycle racks And there was a fair amount of debate of saying well, should it only be with new buildings? If it's only with new buildings, then it's only with a handful of buildings and Over the next 10 or 15 years Where's the right line to draw it and they felt that with these Communities goals of trying to become a Bicycle friendly community that that's where they wanted to encourage Turnovers so that the most buildings possible in the shortest period of time could become Bicycle friendly But there's trades to that and there's there's cost there's insurance So that's how they got to this. Okay. I don't know if there's anything you want to add to it I don't want to put you know, I'm Okay, Megan. Yeah, I think the other question was also the number and how the number was arrived at For how many bicycle slots? They were talking about over a hundred near 200 at you mall for instance So they were curious how that number was I can go and pull the report but the The bike pad committee and then the planning commission had looked at a whole range of different ways to calculate it different amounts To calculate it trying to find the right threshold based on what exists. What's best practices elsewhere? Appropriate like the you mall is a is a really interesting one because it's such an outlier to everything else in the city So the numbers when they multiply to that size, that's a 600,000 square foot building Retail bringing that down to a normal 10,000 square foot building scales down very very very quickly But I'm happy to I'm happy to share with the council the Report and the analysis that have been done in different ways of coming to the Yeah, we did spend a lot of time going through a lot of different scenarios on that and we tried to Streamline by type This chart is much smaller now and briefer than What it was and we felt that that was Would be easier really for The DRB and the developers to work with because the question I guess was when it's retail and people go in and they do their shopping Ideally they're gonna come out with bags, right? and so to go there By bike It just would not be conducive to really being you know a consumer But there's a lot of employees as well. There are retail.  I mean I think 200 bicycle racks seems like a lot for the mall Having seen very few people not that I hang out there a lot, but um, you know, I just have seen such a Few number now. Is that because there aren't bicycle racks that people don't ride their bikes? and And I just wonder if that because it really does seem like I mean, I don't know what these guys cost, but I think 200 would be and I just wanted to say that wasn't a flippant remark The business owner said their employees cannot afford to live here. So I just wanted you to hear that from And we can check the numbers. I believe if 200 is the right number. I just want to be clear That's well, yes, this is here in my part. Yes, not bicycle racks. So for example out front here. There's Three use in a single rack that represents six bicycle parking spaces. Oh, okay So just to be clear, it's not 200 racks. That would be a lot of right. Yeah. No, I knew enough for 200 bikes But I did look at all kinds of configurations from other communities where they're using car How many do you recall how many bikes can fit within a car space that they can convert a set car space? It's somewhere between 12 and 12 and 18 I think a single in a single car space So there's a lot of things that different communities are doing to address that that kind of conversion without having To change their parking lot. Mm-hmm, but literally just section off sure hearts and then it can ebb and flow and So with the work that's being done at the mall now with getting it ready for target and H&M H&L Does that trigger the but the need for 200 bike spaces the into the because The changes at target decided to also make some configuration changes to the parking area than yes so not the not the H&M specifically and not the Target specifically on the inside but because they decided that they wanted to rearrange some things outside then yes Is it trigger just for the target area for the entire mall? Triggers it for the whole property. Yeah, and then who has to pay for that not target Not all 200. That's up to the property owner to figure out how to Address that part of it. How many are there now? I? Don't know as I've never seen any or there's some behind there's there's a number in different areas. There's some Over by the Applebee's There's some over by the Hannaford There's some around back in the Sears entrance. I Could pull up their site plan if I had a few minutes because they do list them on there currently We just didn't have a Previously we require that they show bike racks and that there be a That there be bike racks, but there wasn't a specific number So it's we know how many racks there are I just don't have them off the top I guess that I I mean I know that there was talk I don't know what's gonna become of the mall You know we don't have that crystal ball and there aren't plans But there was talk of a theater turning it more into a destination where there would be entertainment and restaurants and That I can see the bike racks really serving a purpose, but for retail I To be honest, I don't even though I do I do go to the mall by bike, but I'm one I really am not In a crowd of bikes when I park my bike I think I mean I and I am Just this was discussed quite a while ago And I do feel that we probably focused more on the new development within city center and The other thing I just was going to say is that this may take some time But we know that there's hopefully also going to be at some point a better easier access for bike pad from very close to that and Hopefully at time that would encourage more bike head bite Sir is there where's the threshold? I guess is my question is is it when the bike path makes its way there or when they're gonna put in new bike racks or if they You know change from retail to a different profile I Guess those are the kinds of questions that go through I'm sure you've heard this but just the frustration I heard is when you have to throw away a perfectly good bike rack to put in this new form factor So if there's a common ground or in some middle ground where you just accept if that they need new bike racks It has to be the new form factor But be a little more accepting of existing investment and that's that's where we hope that the current draft Amendment would address that as long as there some basic level of a bike rack If it's the kind that are just a wheel on the ground If you've seen the ones where they're only about this high off the ground you can only attach the tire Tires can be removed in three seconds now. So that that that wouldn't meet Something where you can attach the meat today. I just looked at the numbers here for the humor Assuming it's about 600,000 square feet. The it's 120 total spaces So they need that they would need and you don't know what they have today or I don't Know what they have. I'm fine if new bike racks meet our certain conformance But if they already have 60 or 70 I it seems silly to mandate them to throw those out and invest in the new stuff, right? So the new standard would read and if you would like we can give you more detail on exactly this but Where pre-proof bicycle racks exist in the site at the time of the application they be this is new language They may be permitted to remain and count towards minimum standards as long as they're compliant with 1314 which I can go into in a second The bike rack can be bike frame can be attached in one place and the bicycle is supported to stay upright the rack is not made constructed of wood and Each space on a rack where bicycle frame can be attached at least one place is considered one bicycle parking space Needs to be clear of obstruction. So you can't put it sort of Behind the dumpster where nobody can get to it. This seems like a sensible change in the last thing on the number needed I'm seeing more and more pettices bikes So I think people are gonna start biking more if they can kick in the electric motor to go up the hill So we're going to get some in Burlington, right? And South Burlington, yeah if we take this example from before just just kind of putting in perspective and the email is kind of it's a unique beast here, but If we're if we were saying that one parking space would be equivalent to about 12 bikes one vehicle parking space one vehicle parking space would be 12 So that's the equivalent of the you mall fitting 12 car parking spaces to to be Fitted for fitting that many bikes. So it's not Taking up a quarter of their parking lot and you know, I could probably see in the winter when all the snow is Plowed in one direction. It probably would bump into some of that versus the car parking and over the holidays, but It's the you mall area is probably the the most unique in this conversation in terms of quantity So when you discuss this if and let's continue to pick on the you mall if they had they build their 120 bike slots and they're used all the time. So there's 120 less cars No, there's It could be Well, if we said that the bike. Oh, oh, so because they're because they're because they're all I think so there's 120 less cars. Is there a basis for the mall saying? Maybe we shouldn't have to have quite as many or some other new building quite as many parking slots because We've offered the equivalents in parking for different modalities It's the two things related to that one in the city center form-based code district the the The new regulations drop all of our parking standards. They used to vary from between Three and a half spaces per thousand square feet up to for restaurants 18 spaces per thousand square feet Meaning about two and a half times the size of the restaurant had to be for parking Down to a minimum of two parking spaces per thousand across the board for all uses So it was dropped substantially and any First floor Detail use has no parking requirement at all That's in the city center area Planning Commission is exploring doing similar things elsewhere a Related and perhaps even more What we are looking forward to is being even more of an incentive We hope in in the near future is that the Planning Commission is working on an update to the traffic overlay district and our transportation impact fees and At their the last time the Commission talked about this a couple months ago the consultant that we were working with was giving a model of how the Tramp traffic impact fees which are assessed every time that there's new use that goes in that has more assumed vehicle trips could be based on total trips rather than vehicle trips and Then using a model that actually the state the Vermont Agency of Transportation start to put together give credit For different things happen. So if you've got bike racks, then you get a credit immediately If you're on a bus route you get a credit So you don't have to do anything if you choose to go above and you put in something like bicycle showers You could get more and more credit. So some of them exist by their geography And so it's incentivizing Folks to want to build along Shelburne Road or in city center We think that that may have some some really positive effects because right now our fee for each vehicle trip That is generated during evening rush hour is just short of $1,000. So if somebody can get a credit of right trips That's $5,000 right there We're excited that has a lot of potential to really be supporting this but we also recognize and we appreciate that these are The it's It's it's not it. It's not a simple transition. We're trying to hear As best we can what can we do to make this really easy for folks to do and inexpensive right and One of the drivers that we're working with The engineering firms and and developers on is Some of the cost of doing this is just the cost of updating the plans Hiring the engineer to update the plans if we can find a way to make that part simpler We can put dollars towards direct installation rather than hiring your engineer to go and draw little updates on plans, which is a Cost that doesn't yield a lot of success a lot of change by itself, but it's also sort of tricky because that's also where the Liability protection exists that if anybody ever falls the engineer has signed off on it So we're trying to find this this balance of how do we make these things easy to do? but So related to that it sounds like one of the other suggestions with the SBBA was the Their desire that all of our committees and commissions Consider the financial or fiscal impact of the different projects or LDRs or whatever is brought forward it sounds as if you do receive at least some information when you're considering changes of what the financial impact would be to The businesses involved both current and new I can give an example of that within these which is good to hear Yeah, we can within the form-based code changes in terms of the Exterior Material that's used. I mean we did Make a change here that would allow one of the businesses that that came in with an issue to continue using Vinyl even though we had removed it from the entire City center area That would be applicable to anybody who has vinyl that's right place vinyl, but it was a it was Cost measure for the for the business and we it was a common sense thing that we did discuss so I think that We do do that and there's representation on the on the planning commission that I think Raises those well, that's good. I would encourage you to continue that because I think that's another piece It's really important as we go forward with any whether it's I don't know Underwood property or bicycle paths or striping or whatever it is That at least part of the consideration for acknowledgment is that this has a cost attached to it And you know what it is and we still Believe we should go forward or you modify it because it's a an Important factor, okay Any other questions for I didn't want to follow up okay with the affordable housing committee since they're here I don't know. I knew you had a meeting directly after the March 19th City Council meeting I don't know if you Discussed our discussion of the land development regulation amendments or not. I was curious Actually I reported to the committee the discussion that we had John Simpson chair of the affordable John do you want to come up as a mic so The insomniacs elicit watch these People watch these I think after Briefly, you know bringing everybody up to date on on this on the discussion at that meeting I think we felt that our approach as Sandy said tonight on the issue of the exemptions and Having those have those properties listed that we were recognizing trying to make this somewhere in between stopping further demolition, but not being Draconian towards the folks who were already in the process of having Their properties and often made on their property and in their life planning. We're counting on that happening. So We tried to take both into account and we worked with Andrew to Identify those contracts that were still you know had been had been executed and That that's where we draw the line anything after that Would fall under the requirement that if there's a demolition or change of use there would be a payment to the Housing trust so so this is different from what I read so the contracts that would yeah Not all of these are under contract, but they are but they were all part of the prior Yeah, the potential for a contract was there the potential was they might all been identified and I'm not sure where that's you know where the when the FAA and Airport and their attorneys have reached out and actually sat down with the people I was led to believe that in most cases That was had happened or Was happening and you know, we're sitting here today We're another couple months after the last time we had a crack at this And so I don't know what the process has been on those individual homeowners But I'm assuming that because they were under that contract that we were going to enable those Purchases to go through at the time that we wrote this Which would have been back in 2017 this Actual list of exemptions didn't exist. So we were thinking conceptually and then since then These actual addresses were added as clarity So we we weren't like looking at these addresses and understanding home by home with the situation was so as The Homes on this list are homes that either have already been under contract or were part of prior AIPs And they're within the map and we don't necessarily know what all the conversations Have been and I don't know within this list Which ones are already under contract and which ones are not my understanding there were people even in the initial contract way back that had Children in the school system and did not want to leave South Burlington. So they did not execute Deal, but I'm assuming when their children are graduated and moved out and they're ready to Retired that they'll be coming through the airport the FAA and saying now All right, so that's my segue because I also the question had to do with the contribution to the affordable housing fund and also my question about how to build more housing that is More attractive to families with children who would attend our schools. Yep, and we and really based on conversations that we've had on the whole issue of more single-family housing We're working on it and actually Monica and Sandy Have been a committee of two to look into some options and they'll be coming forward as we work through our Agenda, so that would be a separate Yeah, I mean, I still think that yeah, that's a separate effort to but I think on the subject of What's the right?  So so nothing new nothing I mean, I think we're I'm I'm not intimidated by attorneys, but it seemed like I kept coming back and we met with Them and they were adamant that this was the right way to go. And so that's where we are And I think you know other things that we considered and this is Where it ended up but one of the questions that I asked was Somewhere along the way is you know what you know can for example the airport buy one of these homes and then rent it out and they Can't right so we we know that the homes once they're purchased I Believe cannot be reused for housing I think the problem is that in the in the noise lands, which is the term that I guess the the FAA uses Of the property that they purchase and that would include even a home that wasn't demolished But it just been purchased that there's a list of uses that are permissible and Even though we have you know zoning authority You can't you know the airport and or any other property owner I guess wouldn't be allowed to ask for oh, okay, let's got this wonderful open space there Let's let's build you know 50 new houses on it Well, that would not be permitted Good by the FAA that once they've purchased the property Residential use is closed out right and to add to that then we did have the conversation of there's nothing to Stop a purchase in this situation from just letting a house just go then and Not not be cared for and so part of this was to Ensure that for the rest of the neighborhood that a home wasn't just purchased and left But but but you asked time the question you asked earlier about the reuse there are set Reuses and the home is not cannot be reused for as a home unless it's moved The use has changed that falls under the same categories demolition as far as this I'm right under under the current program. There are other FAA program which would be explored which do retain housing But the current program is a bio There are some temporary exceptions that have been meant by the FAA, so I do want to clear about that if anybody notices There are some homes there that have been purchased by the airport for example of the little lane where they got a special What special waivers in the FAA and temporary capacity so that the homes are still being lived in while Well options and ideas are being considered, so they don't get Darryl. I mean we certainly you know for speaking for our committee we would welcome an alternative Which would allow that affordable houses to stay in place and be noise proof Yeah, I mean if the if the if these exceptions were then purchased at the market rate The airport was going to offer, but then we were able to improve the their quality and you know Use them as affordable housing because some of them would be fine in that sense. That would be great, but it's not Permitted right now and that's unfortunate, but I think we've drawn hopefully drawn the line Where where things stand and any future purchases will at least have the stumbling blocker adding some money and Well future her future purchases outside of this Right list. Yes, which will motivate those other plans rather than demolition, which is what we're after so that this makes a lot of sense Well, but the other plans Do you count as demolition? I think what Tom means is the the current noise compatibility plan update That is contemplating what happens in the future after this list Where the airport could rebuy it the airport could give sales assistants the airport could insulate it all those don't involve demolition So this will change their calculus That's right demolishing versus the other plans Preserving our affordable housing stock, which is what we're after any other questions for Well, I guess I have to ask questions so regarding coming back to the bicycle You don't need me for that So thank you, so you've actually made a change to the change Well, you proposed all the art changes that you modified them before coming here tonight No, this the the changes that I described are in the round of amendments that you had Initially born to public hearing on the last case so the complaints we heard were about a previous We're fixing we're fixing well. I would say that we've received a Reasonable amount of feedback in lots of ranges of it Right the bike pet committee and the planning commission have proposed a set of amendments, which they are hopeful will address Some level of the concerns. I don't want I don't think it would be fair for me to put myself in the shoes of the SBBA to say whether they find that this is an adequate solution, but it is intended to be At least we did pass at a much earlier date the regulations for the for the new bike parking So it was the initial round that adopted the standards. There is this current round, which tries to recognize some existing bike parking circumstances that Seemed reasonable and there were no but I don't I'm not going to qualify that every member of the SBDA or any other Business owner will say that this is right and and we also did not get any negative feedback at the planning commission Public hearing did not receive. No. Well, that's interesting, right? I don't think any bicycle. They had our air Okay, so well, hopefully those were then from an older version then Yeah, because their pavement was scratched out Are there any comments from the public? Jimmy my name is Jimmy lease You know, I just heard something that From the Affordable housing from John Simpson That made me think, you know, there might be a conflict of interest here And I think that maybe the council should really reconsider the charge It's giving to the Affordable Housing Commission and not give them two opposing charges Preserve affordable housing, but also think about the developers also think about the airport also think about everything else So that now the exemptions swallow the rule We need to have an affordable housing commission that has one interest affordable housing and Let's go with that and if there are other people who for example, let the Burlington Airport come in and Advocate for itself Why is the affordable housing commission? Being the advocate for the airport or for anybody else I think they should be really focused on Affordable housing otherwise we're not going to have affordable housing look at the number of exemptions in what they presented here I would advocate that they all be removed that makes the Administration of the rule absolutely simple you're going to change the use of an affordable house To something that's not a house Pay the pay the fee it better be a good reason So that you can afford that fee and it isn't really that much compared to the Compared to the cost of a house as far as I can tell And and and let's look at the airport Nothing stops them from applying for an additional grant to get additional money to pay the affordable housing Impact fee And nothing stops Burlington in view of the vote They just had in Burlington on town meeting and the vote that they just had in the Burlington City Council is everybody aware of that vote I'll just I'll just summarize it At town meeting 55% of the voters of the city of Burlington Voted to request the cancellation of the plan basing of the F-35 at the airport and to request instead Low noise level equipment with a proven high safety record appropriate for a densely populated area and The city council last Monday Voted for a resolution nine to three To replace the plan basing of the F-35 with the basing of low noise level plane With a proven high safety record consistent with the ballot question that was adopted by the voters So what that means is that all of this noise might Issue if the whole thing might be evaporating before our eyes The air the air force is being requested to provide low noise equipment And now we've already heard just now that there are waivers being given by the FAA So if that's the case, maybe we don't have to have any demolitions at all Maybe people can continue to live in these homes And I think that uh And now in the the F-16 noise is also going away. They these planes are aging the air Everybody is saying they're going to be Removed so we're not going to be getting that intense afterburner noise in the neighborhood After they go away and if we get low noise level equipment replacing them, why would we Give an exemption for demolishing homes that don't need to be demolished after all but even if Even if they are going to be you know, even if Somehow the air force wants to ram down the F-35 Into Burlington notwithstanding that vote and I think we're going to be seeing a vote in Winooski as well Consistent with The resolution I just read and hopefully we'll have one here in south Burlington as well So the air force confronted with possibly with Resolutions from several towns it would be unprecedented for the air force I really think they're going to listen. They're not going to want to force this on the voters And on the people of all these towns when they themselves didn't want to do it in the first place It was a pressured decision from senator lehi So but even if they do It is possible For the for Burlington to come up with the money either themselves or by requesting grants They're such experts at getting grants Why couldn't they're getting grants for the homes for the land for the relocation expenses for the for all kinds of fees that are being That have to do with relocating people To a new home. So why wouldn't they get that to what? What's the evidence that this is going to interfere with the purchase by Burlington? I know we haven't seen any evidence. So why should we assume that? And make decisions to give exemptions based on just a supposition I don't think that what's at stake now. I I heard that there were um I think 28 homes or 28 homes that have not That are still Without um that haven't been That haven't been demolished yet at least 28 homes. That's around 1.7 million dollars Of impact fee that Burlington would be collecting if it's 60 thousand dollars per home And that's quite a bit of money that could help just keeping that in place could really help Focus the mind of Burlington to some degree One more one more element focusing their mind in addition to their own vote in addition to the vote of the people In addition to the possible vote of wanouski in south Burlington To say look we have a good reason To get rid of this noise And then we can get the waiver from the fAA and keep those homes And I think that's what we should be driving for not giving exemptions. Thank you very much. Thank you anyone else Okay, so I guess what is um, if there's no other questions or comments Well, I'm willing to have the 10 minute executive session if people are still Entertaining that notion I have some questions for Andrew Okay All right, um Break for that now Okay, well that might work sue. We usually take a 10 minute break for um sue so we will Take that break and the council will have a brief executive session I need to make a motion. We need a motion. So I move that we enter into executive session to discuss um, attorney client communications Advising Oh, that's right. Can we end the public hearing? We never moved to enter it. That was a question I had We never made any motions, right? So it was continued. It was continued. Yeah So we have to come out, right? So we have to come out. Well, it's still continued. Can we just continue it? We're recessing. Okay. I'm going into executive session during that recess So, uh, so then on the executive session motion is a, uh, You need premature finding that or a initial finding motion that premature public knowledge would place in public body It's a significant disadvantage You know that language better than I do. So I add that. Yes. So moved In a second second all in favor So moved with what the city manager deputy manager and Paul connor too Okay, so that's been moved in seconded all in favor I thank you This concludes our regular break Yes Okay Oh Okay I I'm gonna do this I hear you You are I And um I have one question in terms of Sort of some future information from our planning director There as I understand it we were talking about the demolition of homes and things and um, is there any any Suggestions or can you think about? Maybe having a greater demolition fee or looking at our fee schedules to see if there's Some other ways to make demolition a little less And are we on step with other communities? Yeah, these types of fees And you do a little research and come back and And if there are any fees that maybe um would help offset some of these costs as well Yeah, absolutely. So certainly you spend a lot of time when they have When we deal with houses being demolished Okay, we'd be happy to do that and I'll coordinate with um, Kevin to find a Thank you very much Okay, super. Um, so I guess if there are no other questions or comments or changes to the um Draft amendments, I guess I would entertain a Motion to adopt the draft land development regulations first step would be the public closing the public hearing I'm sorry. That's right. I move to close the public hearing second All in favor So now I'll make that request for a motion to Adopt the draft land development regulations as presented Second. Okay. Any further discussion? All those in favor signify by saying aye. Okay. Thank you very much Thank you. That's a lot of work And obviously a lot of conversations, so Moving on to item 11. This is the council review and possible action to endorse the community outreach mental health partnership between six Chittenden county communities and Howard mental health and kevin's going to take that And thank you. Um affordable housing committee for sharing your expertise We appreciate it Doug and trevor or chief whipple and chief brent are here with us tonight to Join in the discussion So tonight we have an opportunity to uh get briefed in on the current status But more importantly the background on the community outreach program that's been developed in partnership with Howard mental health and six communities The communities of coal chester wanowski Essex wilson shelburn and south burlington Fundamentally the program is about hiring four mental health counselors and have them embedded with our first responders to support point of contact Deescalation and uh support for individuals in mental health crisis and uh dug and trevor have both been Very much involved in the development of the program and the operational aspects of it. So I would Turn that over to them to to brief the council First or second, we didn't drive it all this time. We didn't even cross our office Anyway, good evening For viewing audience. I don't usually appear out of uniform, but I've been on the road today teaching the academy running around trevor Whipple here chief of police pleased to be here wanted to give you a brief synopsis of kind of Where we were how we got to where we are today We started a number of years ago back in 12 really kind of monitoring We've been doing evidence-based policing trying to identify where where do we see the need in the community? Where's the The high volume calls whether it be location type of call person even And quickly as we looked at at our data at our statistics, we realized that mental health related calls We're driving a lot of what we do Certainly, we know opiates are out there, but mental health as well And from 2012 until today, we've been kind of keeping a finger on the pulse of that and we've seen in 2012 We were averaging about seven and a half calls a month Went up to about 10 in 2013 stayed at 10 in 2014 went to 16 in 2015 and we've seen it continued to rise I think as we further Identify the problem area we've become a little bit better at ferreting it out, but also I think we see increasing need in the community So as we were we're continuing to monitor these numbers I gave kevin some recent numbers and you know as recent as the beginning of this year We had 16 mental health related calls in january and february and then I did a freshen up last night And we've had 12 in march alone So we've had about a 47 increase already just this year from january february to march So we're seeing those numbers continue to rise And continues to put challenges on our officers Back in september of 15 When we were at kind of mid-level Concern about this I approached Howard mental health because burlington had this great program called street outreach At that point, um, I didn't in any way vision that we would have such an animal here in in south burlington I went to them and asked for just a little bit of help and said hey if we've got a critical issue That one critical call can we call upon this resource? That's in downtown burlington to maybe come and help us if they're available And Howard agreed to do that in the fall of 15 So we were getting a very low level of assistance from them on demand only And only when they weren't otherwise occupied in burlington because that's where the resource for this was coming from And we continued to to kind of make do And then it was the summer of 17 so You know about nine months ago or so that Was a number of things was the perfect storm so to speak where we had a number of calls that came in I was I didn't even know I was talking with kevin I think just needed somebody to talk to but we had seen some real challenges in the agency And I believe that that you've already heard some of these anecdotal stories. We had one very high functioning Nurse who had had three suicide attempts in a very short period of time Our officers were really struggling with that because the final time they went to help her She was actually holding a knife against her own throat And they had to use a taser in order to help her and when they tased her she fell and she became injured So I had an officer left with you know, here I am trying to help this woman and I end up hurting her That's how I help her is by hurting her And then right in the same week we had a woman who doused herself with gasoline went into a home Was standing with swords holding the officers at bay threatening to ignite yourself in the home And it was just a really tough time. It was a tough time in the community We were seeing continues to be but this really came to a head this one week And so as I was talking with kevin The idea was birthed that let's get together as as a community collaboratively called it where kevin Brought the energy and the power of the sea management from our neighbors With ems with law enforcement to really talk about this and to commiserate that we're all seeing this level of challenge in our communities this level of strain and stress on our staff And just risk risk to community members who we're putting police officers in to deal with people in significant mental health crisis And we have we have training but we have this much training compared to a mental health clinician that has this much So through this community collaborative There really was a discussion and I think a almost instantaneous agreement. We can do better. We need to do better and kevin sent me with some marching orders down to meet with with the howard staff again In I'm trying to think here when I met with them. I believe it was I can't find it right now july of 17 july around july of 17 the towards the end of the summer of 17 I went out and talked with them and and gave them kind of a challenge statement and said Burlington's got street outreach. They have resources at their disposal on a pretty regular basis I really would like to see what can you do for us and howard came up with a proposal to say They looked at the six communities They looked at our gave them our call volumes and they felt that with four clinicians that they might be able to provide some Pretty robust cut not 24 7 not around the clock, but some certainly a lot more coverage We really had none, but some coverage that could be helpful and supportive to us and Thus the idea of community outreach was born with these six communities where The hope is and they actually have been hired We'll have four clinicians to share amongst those six communities We've already met with them and we've been assured by howard that because of our level of need Our level of preparation and planning that they have committed that there will be one One fte so 40 hours Minimum assigned to our community alone and the three will be shared with the other five communities We'll have one just at our disposal because of the the need I think that our collection of statistics the what we've seen in the community has been convincing So I think I'll give Doug a chance to catch up and Good evening Doug Brent chief of fire and EMS for the city south ronkton I did kind of like what trevor did but I did a polaroid snapshot of one month and seeing I just did qa qi for The month of february. I just thought I'd throw some numbers at you just to let you know what we're seeing So we took 137 folks to the hospital during the month of february Um 17 of those folks were for behavioral health issues Um of that third excuse me 17 of those folks were behavioral health issues of that 17 Four were actually suicidal type issues whether they either attempted it or mentioned it or thought that they were Uh apt to be Causing themselves some harm Just to put that into a little perspective Substance abuse whether it be drug overdoses or alcohol. We only had six people with those type of problems Um, and then just to let you know to bring it a little more mainstream home about this Heart issues people that had cardiac issues for that whole month We only took 10 people with cardiac issues. So this is a problem This is a problem we're seeing in the street all the time and interestingly enough of those 17 behavioral health issue calls that we went on Six of those were to the same person Three of them in the same day to the same person within the 24 hour frame framework. So This is for us as department leaders in the city.   So that's seven people that are tied up on one person who's having an issue And to have somebody that's trained behavioral health to be able to come to the scene And probably not transport this person to the hospital Um, see that they get the help that they need. Um, this is going to be just huge for us Because if nothing else that makes us available for other people in the city that need us for other health issues as well Without calling outside help, but I just wanted to throw some of those numbers out there So just and try to put it into some type of perspective. This is what one month looks like in south brilington So I'd be glad to answer any questions that you might have about that, but We're we're really looking forward to this happening. Trevor brought the four people who are Perspective candidates to be hired into meet with our staff the other day They just dropped in so they only hit one of our shifts But it was great that my staff was just elated to think that there was going to be some people That were Trained in mental health to be able to come out into the field and see people where they're having their problems Rather than having to tie up for our folks take them to the hospital tie up all their folks up there So that's that's my I'd like to if I could also recognize Both trevor and dug The leadership you've provided in addressing mental health issues in your own team in your own teams by Going out and finding resources And bringing them in To address those issues are it's a very important initiative that you both have taken on so Thank you for that And and community outreach will give us a number of layers Being embedded in the agency they will be available to respond with our people So if we have a mental health crisis, we can have a police officer and a clinician go together If there's danger the police officer will make the scene safe will be the primary contact as it becomes safe We can bring in the clinician if there's no danger Maybe the police officer stands back and the clinician goes in and we have somebody with mental health expertise We have the right tool for the right problem. Um, we will get to a point where If there is no level of danger the clinician will go instead of the officer We won't even send an officer the clinician will be able to go and provide some mental health assistance to these individuals and We hope as we've seen in street outreach what we hope to see in community outreach Is we hope to see these clinicians do a level of maintenance and check-ins such that they don't wait for a problem If they know there's a family or a person struggling in our community They can do a check-in periodically to make sure that they're seeing their clinician to make sure that they're taking their medication To make sure that everything is okay. So we don't wait for the 911 call to go to them We provide a little prevention ahead of time through the clinician. So that doesn't get to the point of 911 So I think that there's some some real strong value here and we've already seen I called it a lack of a better term I've been involved in a number of restaurants that have come to the community where you're invited to a soft opening Where it's like let's try things out We actually had a soft opening of community outreach the other day where we had an individual in our community write a very heartfelt very long letter about some significant struggles in their family mental health struggles financial struggles housing struggles parental struggles across the board and it was really a significant cry for help Asking for assistance. They were soon to be homeless and there was some hinting of I'm not sure if I can continue to live this way. So we were concerned about maybe some suicidal issues We were able to forward that to community outreach. We did some background research for them We had engaged with the family before There had never been any violence. So the community outreach went without us spent some time meeting with this family We're able to go with a resource packet And reported back we've met with them. We think everything is fine. We've given them some contacts So a situation where we might have put a police officer or an ems team Into that family not really knowing what the resources are and not knowing for short doing our vast But perhaps not being very effective. We were able to send the mental health experts in Before the the program is actually even officially started and got a great report back Yes questions. Sure. Yeah So this sounds like a a good idea and has it been tried anywhere else in vermont? Yes Down around rattle burrow and bellows falls. I think they have a clinician that they've been sharing not nearly as robust as this I don't think the need is as great down there. I know the city of berry has a mental health person on their staff Who assists with community outreach? It's also been done. I'd love to say we're We thought up this idea. We didn't it's it's come from other areas and if you if you google it It's being deployed. It has been deployed all across the nation With some great success so, um I guess I'm just interested like Do you have any feeling For what percentage of these calls that you get that are that are probably mostly mental health related or strictly What percentage of those are people that are already known to the howard system? Do do we have a feeling for that or unless the person self reports? We don't yeah because of hippo We don't get that shared with us one of the benefits of having a howard clinician with us Right is they're going to have a dual a dual firewall so to speak They will know the howard and they won't be able to share with us But they'll know the howard piece and the and the information right do you feel like When you get the 911 calls that That require you to go to wherever it is right where somebody needs help um Do you think that in some in some instances if not more than just some like more than half? That those are If it's a first-time call from that person that they may not have sought out Those howard services on their own I guess what i'm getting at is that some people don't seek out help when they need it right and unfortunately when it Finally surfaces It becomes so aggravated that you're the last resort because the person could be threatening somebody else or themselves So I just i'm curious.  They don't need help and they further degrade into their illness Right So what we're hoping is by having these experts on the front line That we can perhaps intervene or they can intervene with people before their health degrades And we have to take them to the hospital. I heard just this morning That you know currently in our er We have 12 people lined up. They've been diagnosed. They've been approved. They've been found in need of a clinical mental health bed And they're waiting in the hallways in the rooms of our emergency department for a therapeutic setting And if we can help to address people's needs before they get to that point all the better and the data show that that could be 350 hours on average weight. Yeah, it's almost 15 days On average So there are other infrastructure related problems beds that that This doesn't directly address but but if at point of contact Deescalation can occur so that They're not in the ed then it does address that issue. Well, this also sounds like there's some benefit direct benefit to the um Your employees your staff So, I mean, I know we have a person available at the police department for mental health Care for the personal personal care personal care But it sounds as if this not only helps the public but also provides that I don't know reduction and stress and Um You know over overreaction potentially by Well your personnel and fear too. I mean when we think about yeah, I guess I mean truly fear when we think about the unfortunate event with Phil Grennan in downtown Burlington Those police officers responded to he's a very good friend of Jim Lettice. I've spoken with Jim about phil You know the police officers responded. He was an elderly man very mentally ill And whatever happened there was an interaction with the police. He was armed with a knife and the police officer shot and killed him You know officers our officers worry about that They worry about engaging with someone with a mental illness having things go wrong and having to use deadly force Um, what what I have hopes of is that a we can get to people before they degrade To that point with their illness or even if they are struggling to the level of phil grennan That we can have instantly on the spot a clinician with us to give us guidance of how to best Address that person how to best interact with that person to try to deescalate So I think it I know already Even though they're not even deployed with us knowing they're coming the level of stress in the building To know that there is help coming. There is you know, there is some support to us but I also think that Circumstantially that when I have a clinician riding around in the cruiser with me all night long or first shift There's going to be some incidental communication And you know that office are just the fact of having somebody to talk to not that they're going to provide clinical support for our team But I think things are going to happen organically to wear a conversation that will take place from time to time It's going to leave the officer feeling better than they did before they started the shift Megan yeah, well, I really thank you for putting this on the agenda I think any new major public initiative deserves a public hearing when we build a new public school Right. These things are are I think a public affair and the public deserves to have a place at the table And I had a few questions In addition to just that that statement obviously the need is there and and the vision That exists already in burlington and then you you mentioned other towns Um and across the country. I think is marks an improvement And a response to a need What my questions have to do is it's just like, you know, the bricks and the mortar for new schools We have to look at the bricks and the mortar for this program So looking at the mo you I see that it's good through june 2019 Um, I was curious what the call level was in the other communities If you've been able to as six communities sit down and look at that I was curious about The agreement between the howards center in burlington How that operates and the reasons why i'm asking these Questions and i'm going to stop after two but the reason why i'm asking these questions I might have others but i'm going to let you respond first to those two Is that We are taking this out of Money that was set aside for our police officers, right? And this is something that we did a couple years ago and I believe that since that time we've lost A few or one or two police officers. I'm not sure how we got to five or seven but anyway And so The goal is of course is to hire police officers, right and so Those funds may not be there, right? And Unless we up the ante right on our end and then the community Chips in So when we're looking at one fte, which is $80,000 for this community And I'm just curious because Um Clearly the you know, the other communities were not able to Participate as fully as as we were And So I was I was just curious. I know the state is participating. We won't see that benefit. The other communities will So what is their level their call volume and the level of need and these other I don't I don't have actual numbers I'm not certainly not with I do know that shulburn is the next highest user particularly with harbour place They have a lot of issues at harbour place with the folks struggling with mental illness You know just anecdotally when we looked at our staff level, we have 44 officers I think colchester's the next largest with 28 So, you know community size our police call volume size Ours was by far the highest although I can't give you the the exact numbers Um, I'm sure we can put those together if it would be helpful But uh, you know as far as the the funding for it you ask about the burlington street outreach I'm not 100 knowledgeable where how their funding is done. I do know that a majority of it or at least what got the program started was business funded Street outreach is very different in design Street outreach is designed mostly for maintenance Ongoing direct service connection with people on the street. So when we see street street outreach, they're patrolling for lack of a better term They're walking church street. They're walking main street downtown. They're not embedded in the cruiser with the officers They're assigned downtown and they walk a beat and they have regular interaction with the people who are panhandling or Having, you know, whatever mental health issues they're they're having downtown And I know that the marketplace committee, whatever their their group is Came up with a lot of the funding for that they saw the need and they said we want somebody assigned to our marketplace You know as far as the funding for us Currently, uh, we have five vacancies. Um, I I'm the most optimistic positive person in the world There's no way we're gonna hire five people in a year. I wish there was that's just in this current climate It's not going to happen. So I am sadly I'm 100 confident that we will easily have an $80,000 surplus In the coming year and very likely in the year after that I suspect in Looking at our department roster that we may have one or two additional retirements besides mine So I think we're going to take a little more of a dip down. So I'm not too concerned about having to go to Kevin and say We don't have enough money in this budget. How are we going to make ends meet? I'm very confident that for the next two budget cycles Unless somebody were to say you haven't filled those positions. We want to take them away Then we would have a difficult then we would have a problem For now, I think it's a bit of a safety in that We're not losing the position. So there is some hope or some capability to fill them if the market the hiring market turns but I also think the means of And talking internally the redirecting of these funds from technically a police officer to a clinician Is a double win for us We have the capacity and funding to be able to do that But I also think when we look at the struggles that we're seeing in law enforcement and some of the difficulties in recruiting is People don't want to face these challenges. They're concerned about facing somebody with mental illness We had but in the last 10 days, we've had two police officer shootings Now i'm not in around the country questionable shootings. I'm not sure if those Individuals that were shot were struggling with mental illness. I ventured a guess. They probably were So I think this is a bit of a retention tool that may in turn help our recruiting is to say, okay I'm concerned about being a police officer. I'm concerned about having to deal with someone with mental illness Not dealing with them successfully and having a bad outcome. I don't know if I want to do that I don't know if I can do that or I don't know if I want to keep doing that So by having this resource in our midst, I think it helps to relieve some of that angst to the officers And I also think makes us a more desirable police department to apply to We support our community and our officers by this Rather in most cases, although not completely unique but rather unique for for this state And I do have questions for our staff And just like I said, I think it's important to have the public hearing um We are The second lowest community for median household income amongst these six communities Shelburne is well over a hundred thousand dollars and we're down to sixty seven thousand dollars For our medium income. We have between 60 and 70 of our population That has property tax adjustment every year due to their income level Um Last year we had 25 000 dollars. I believe left over in our budget and that's with the five FTEs tom that we're unfilled. So that meant we spent money That was not used for the FTEs on on other you know needed costs So even without the hiring of a police officer, we're running a really close slim Line um with what we have budgeted And so with regard to our 80 000 dollars and we know that Essex, Willison, Shelburne and Winooski and Colchester will be Subsidized by the state their Essex is paying twenty four thousand six hundred dollars Willisons paying fourteen thousand seven hundred sixty dollars Shelburne's paying thirteen thousand one hundred twenty dollars Winooski twelve thousand three hundred dollars Colchester nineteen thousand six hundred and eighty dollars And i'm really uncomfortable with this in the mo you We're listed as south brillington the balance necessary to cover all remaining program costs Minus the state payment which i've been told is About one FTE which which i've read is 81 000 dollars in the press And i know that Initially just having read the other paper the thought was that the howards center was going to be funding this program And then there was a thought that there could be grant funds available to fund this program and now it's come down really to south brillington Being the you know the the person there to Guarantee the funding and i'm i'm really uncomfortable with that just knowing what We see every year when we are faced with our budget and When i also think about Um fair share We're After winooski at south brillington with the lowest household income median income Now if there's the call volume there that would support that investment I think that that argument could be made and won with the public So i that's why i ask these questions and we're the call volume to change um You know we we have to justify our our Expenditures with the public They Are as you know, we've heard tonight are struggling with Affordability issues and and money issues we see it before the board of abatement And it's heartbreaking and i i feel for for people who are in a crisis situation Um So we're on the other end though where we're asking people to pay into it and So that's why i'm asking these questions is How sustainable is this for our community? When we came within 25 000 last year And how fair is it to our community? Yeah, well i think the grant's still pending You know we we should hear on that Fairly soon if If i didn't feel confident at this point Recommended to kevin that we utilize that $80,000 for this purpose. I wouldn't have recommended it last year we had a unique situation where The development growth and the city was down Significantly and at this time last year. I think we already knew that we were going to be At least several hundred maybe three hundred Thousand dollar short in the fire inspection revenue We're doing pretty good this year. We're doing pretty good this year overall as as you've heard in the monthly financials compared to last year at this time. I think you heard the concern in my voice Um, if I didn't feel comfortable recommending this, I wouldn't have and I think the benefit that we're getting by having a A dedicated mental health Staff member As you heard the chief speak. I think Is is worth it for us. I think it's needed I think we've justified it in our minds. Um, I think the council Needs the weigh in on that if you feel that that's a worthwhile investment as well But we've made the decision to move forward with it because we feel it's a priority And the fairness this new would there will be in future years South Burlington that subsidized when those so that that's a great point So we needed something to measure it by Megan and I I think once we get through next summer To july 1st We'll be able to see what the volume what the exact volume is based on on the four people that are servicing The different communities and I think at that point We can say we need to reallocate the costs And I think we also have to weigh is that if if there isn't enough to justify a full-time FTE Is that what we want? Because to have somebody I think like trevor has said right around in the cars where Our officers are engaging with these people getting to know the folks within our community that there's certain advantages to that But one of the ways we can measure it is by actual data and we'll have that by then with the four people So and I think all the managers are in agreement with that that this is this is a model that needed to start In some fashion and how was it how was it going to? kick off We've been committed from the get-go on this and the other communities have joined in and I think if there's a reallocation of costs they understand that they'll pick up their fair share Is it envision that it would end in Should I first 2019 if if the program? I mean, that's the that's my concern as well First of all this this language that we're just going to be paying the remainder that I really feel uncomfortable with that language I think Kevin can clarify some of that. There's a side letter that clarifies It's it's the remainder of the one half of the cost of the program. So we already committed to one quarter The other communities have Committed to one quarter of the state to one half and so The remainder of the program is our 80 thousand dollars So it does not if you were thinking Is it the remainder of the program? The state's component it is not it's confined to to our half And there is a side letter I'll send that out in the mail So maybe I'm going to pick up a little bit on your line of thinking in line of concern questioning Which is very valid We need to make sure that we're protecting the interests or economic interests of the taxpayers in my other life my daytime job I have served on the faculty senate student affairs committee for the last seven years And we have seen an increase of mental health needs among many populations on campus We've also realized that not having the right support systems actually comes out have worse outcomes at a higher cost So I fully support this program and it seems like the right thing to do It also tells me that this we're desicc dignitizing Mental health issues, which in a way is a good thing. So both the burden is a good and a bad thing The other thing I'll say is at uvm and we both work at uvm So I keep looking over to you I I see that to often take some leadership from an organization from an entity on campus and our sustainability Initiatives are a cross campus thing to get it off the ground But then you have to reassess And so we have to keep looking at this get the numbers But so your questions I completely support We need to keep an eye on this and what we're exposing the city for but I applaud Our effort to move this forward because it's what needs to be done And if anything I see south burlington as fitting that leadership role just to get this thing going so great work And and I can assure you that you know, we've already met with the statisticians at howard and each of these clinicians is going to have a mobile device That they will keep minute data sets on they will track everything so that whenever we want it Whether it be monthly or quarterly we can get reports back from them. Where have you been called for services? What's the level of service and I can assure you that if we use these folks two times next month I've got to report back to kevin that you know, I'm not so sure maybe we thought this was a great idea But maybe we don't need them. It won't be the case But if it were I would be happy to report that out We're going to monitor the need the use. Where are they being used? I mean right now selfishly Because we have said we're going to pony up the the 80 thousand dollars. I don't even have to demand It's an automatic we have one fte devoted to us We're not having to share that where the other community is just going to be in ebb and a flow They might have somebody Two days this week and three days next week and the availability to them Is going to be a lot less than it's going to be to us because we're paying the bigger share Even if their need requires more Even if their need requires more and we have fewer calls Yeah, I mean it's it's going to have to adjust as we go and you know If we're starting out that because we're paying for one that we're getting one one is being assigned here now If there's crises, of course, they will go from community to community as needed But you know absent a crises as far as day to day functionality this community outreach that we want this engagement with people before There's a crisis. We've got 48 a full guaranteed 40 hours of that Um, and you know from there, we will look at the data and we will assess going forward Can I follow up just sort of to along the financial line? So the budget that the um was presented and and the voters approved of for fy 19 included within your budget $80,000 for this Program, is that right? No, it included money for the for 44 police officers Right, and we currently have 39 in our employ But your knowledge was that One of those the salaries for one of them would likely support this program What I heard from My managers my bosses was when we started talking about this program We had a dialogue about do you think you will be hiring five officers? The answer was not in my wildest dreams I think we will have uh Unfunded positions for this year and very likely next year and then the discussion was well We can use some of that planned budget surplus to get this program started And there was a significant need and let's use the money that we currently aren't using for police officers to get service To the citizens and to the officers They were fully in support of that. Oh, absolutely. Yes, but then that begs the question for the next fiscal budget Do we then You know peg one of those fte's to be for this mental health Clinician counselor from Howard center and reduce your budget to four fte's for police but Would that be a reassessment that we have to make at a later date? I think I would I would ask um, I don't want to commit the new guy. I don't want to commit the new guy Maybe I do No, but I mean I will be involved in the beginning of the process You won't be preparing that but so that's a question for you know, that's why we need the data Okay, right, right And I think once we see the data and once we also see what our recruitment looks like for the rest of the year I mean we may walk into f y 20 Realizing that we're still going to carry some vacancies and maybe that provides us another year of a little bit of buffer I just think for For purposes of transparency for the budget for the following year that we're very clear, right that we That this fte is for this Howard clinician Yeah, I have a couple other questions of nobody else. Okay, so I want to get down to some more of the brass tacks of this program, right? So so with these Are they going to be called clinicians? I don't know what Howard wants to call them. I haven't asked yet They've been hired. Yeah, so they're all on staff with Howard community outreach workers. I guess workers are well Howard employees or they're hard employees. Okay, so are are they going to be delivering any formal training? to the police department at all? I mean, are will they have a session where they sit down with some police? You know officers at some point, you know, whatever it is that they can do who's not on who's not on call and deliver some educational instruction about different types of mental illnesses and And you know their sources they're treating in other words trying to to transfer knowledge to police Because I don't know how much mental health training police officers get We get we have about 80 hours you get a lot well 80 hours 80 hours a year. Yeah. No, no, no So the point is is that if somebody's riding around a car with a police officer and they they have a large amount of mental health Knowledge right and past experience They're going we do we assume that they're going to be imparting some of that informally in the car Like so if they haven't they're having a conversation about bipolar disorder, right? They could be imparting a lot of knowledge to an officer who might not have that much information about it, right and and so so then the next question is The police probably have a fairly intimate knowledge of Of a number of people in the community, right who they've had contact with before Who probably have or suffering from some sort of a mental health issue, right? So and these clinicians are going to be present for some of those visits Or maybe not present for some of those visits, but at some point So then the question is in that car when some of those informal conversations are taking place and I'm just asking the question Are are are those conversations prohibited from happening if they're concerning a certain individual? That that only one of them has had experience with or the other or both or not. I mean is hippa going to Prevent Discussions about so let's say there's a person in a family and the police officers visited this house before and knows Extensively this family and the clinician does too are the two those two people in that car Are they allowed to discuss that family and and possible outcomes and strategies for dealing with that in the future? Potential violence is involved. They should be able to write. I mean if there's I don't know if there's danger involved And I think that you know part of this is building a team So there are some hippa protections, but there's also and Howard has been clear that they're going to respect patient privacy They have to legally and also ethically But also if we're talking about somebody struggling in our community and the smith family has a 10-year-old son Who has bipolar disorder and the police officer was there last night and wants to talk with the Howard worker about I went to the smith's house and you know, I just don't know how to help this little guy You know, I there will clearly be a dialogue about you know Well, here's what I might recommend. Maybe the clinician will come at it from a circuitous route where they won't say Here's what I did last time I met with them. They might say well, here's what I might recommend So I think some of that can be shared in that sense But certainly they'll be going to calls together where they're going to be able to talk and play off each other When you talk about training, we have you know, formal roll calls three times a day at every shift And these workers will work varying hours So they will be able to address a shift And whether it be it'll be likely fairly informal but talk about certain mental illnesses talk about how to Interact with people or even specific individuals. Hey, we know you've been having a lot of problems with the smith family Here's you know, what I might recommend to help Help them or help their child or what happens? so what i'm hoping for is that there is a Really advantageous synergy that happens here right because the police are are skilled in this skill set and The howard people are skilled in this skill set right and sometimes they complement very well Right and and those are the situations that you where you want de-escalation You and you want maximum services for at least for the future to be to be able to be provided, right? So i'm hopeful that this will help a lot of people and especially help the police department Right and especially the officers right who have to respond because they're going to they're going to understand more about basic human nature And basic human Aburrent nature at times right and and how to be more Humanistic and trying to deal with people who are having problems. So correct So that those are really that's a really good story and I hope that we can accumulate the data that shows that to be true And this is all part of in my Very optimistic world is also part of for The police fire ems our communities De-stigmatizing mental illness.  You're working on your physical health. We're going to work on our mental health as well And you know, we really want to paint The community paint everyone in our community With the idea that having a mental illness should not be a stigma. That is somebody who has an illness It's like somebody who has a heart condition where they need to watch their diet If you have a mental illness you need to watch your mental health And I hope that by these interactions by this synergy by this complimenting of resources that we can better serve the community And and better serve the people that serve the community, you know, I'm selfishly there's a I see a significant benefit for our officers and our fiery ms And and you know, we're talking a lot about cops. I get a little possessive here But firefighters too is that these clinicians or outreach workers are also going to jump in an ambulance You know if we if if they're dispatched to a call not a police call But it seems to have a mental health component The outreach worker will respond to that as well and could very likely jump in the back of an ambulance and help on the way to the hospital Just one last comment is that I think sometimes A person not in uniform Might have just the effect that is needed as well so Yeah, I mean we deal with I my career I've dealt with a lot of people and A common theme we see in a lot of folks struggling with mental illness is fear of the government And who's a better representative of the government than the guy with the badge and the gun or the gal with the badge and the gun So it's kind of like the wrong tool for the problem at the time Yeah Any other questions Yes, oh top Go ahead Go ahead Yes, you may yeah Thank you All right Yes, this is a good evening. My name is Doug Bugby. I'm a resident of south berlington for 27 and a half years This issue is very important to me. I'm also a licensed clinical social worker and drug and alcohol counselor in berlin working in berlington since 1990 And I can attest to the difference that having the street outreach program in berlington Over a number of years has made in the lives of people with mental illness and struggling with substance use issues as well When people are in need they're not often able to go get help Outreach provides the option of help being a mobile Meeting meeting where they are and capturing an opportunity for the intervention that might not happen otherwise The importance of outreach also hits a little closer to home You may have ideas about what people look like with these kinds of issues They might look different or they might look the same as you They might look like my own family who's benefited very personally from outreach support at times No one thinks that their family might be impacted by an illness and require help And it's very easy to think that this doesn't happen to our family. It happens to other families Um in reference to need in 2016 According to the national institute of mental health 18.3 of adults or 44.7 million people in the u.s Have been diagnosed with a mental health condition 4.2 of those adults Or 10.4 million people have a diagnosis of a serious mental illness Some conditions need a higher level of support than others So any individual and family can be impacted Perhaps you or your family member or a neighbor or business partner could be anyone People who are struggling and people who support them Are a substantial part of this community that the city council represents In regards to tools sometimes the tools of our first responders That they use to address community needs can look different and change over time So new investments may be required community outreach Just like a new ladder or a computer dispatch equipment or a cruiser Is a tool that will assist our first responders given the current climate to do their jobs to the best of their ability I trust that the Leaders working for our city can properly assess what tools they require And I ask that the city council make sure that the people working for the city of south berlington Have these tools that they need to do their jobs. Um, I've been following the development of These ideas to add outreach since last summer and it's professional as a resident a family member And a taxpayer. I fully support this initiative. So thank you for your time. Thank you very much Any other comments? Yes, michael Then tom you can ask your question It's somewhat off point Uh, mike simonel south berlington resident, uh, also happened to be on the board at the howard center Yeah, so In our lives everybody we try to make decisions and look at wants versus needs and from the beginning of this process, I've been tuned into it because You know, kevin from time to time is You know, he will share with me We'll just have some general conversation about what's going on in town and so a while back You know, we said we got to try to come up with a solution here There's actually another part of this program that they may or may not be able to get off the ground that might amount to some kind of a triage thing, but Exponentially that's a it's a bigger get bigger budget But uh, I think that you know, kevin initiated a lot of the effort and provided a lot of the energy for this He was responding I think to some needs that were being expressed by Uh, our police and fire department who were finding themselves You know attempting to solve problems provide services and situations where You know, they were groping For you know doing the right thing So This this program I think is materialized In response to to needs You know Calling it a want that's that's way too light. Uh, this is a need Don't want to this to sound the wrong way but mental health Mental illness mental health is probably the better word. It's a growth industry You know, uh Body replacements big growth industry, right? You know hips shoulders Well over the last several years People have begun to realize how important mental health is to our bodies the impact that the brain has on physiological health and You're seeing a lot more people paying attention to these these issues, but you know, we run behind the curve I want to got a short list of some things that are going on right now That over the last several years have occurred that maybe 10 years ago They weren't even on the radar screen Mental health clinicians in almost every school In our community Because regular nurses were in over their head trying to figure out how to handle issues of this nature one way or another School budgets found a place, you know to fund some money for those services Uh Get a needle exchange program. Uh, and some of these things too. They're like out of the box They're scary. They they've been scary for people when we started these things, but uh Again responding to needs The chin and clinic we know You know, what a process we went through here in south burlington when the clinic arrived and You know, the initial clinic was over in the city of burlington and when that thing got off to what started I mean, we had the governor of this state who was a burlington resident and was passionately opposed to it so, uh street outreach Another response to needs, uh, you know burlington business community, but uh They had a grant actually last year or the year before there was a grant that expired in burlington and the budget for the street outreach program Was like cut in half And they've been really doing everything that they can for the last year or two to try to overcome The loss of those revenues to do the job that they were doing Uh, the use of uh, narcan that literally the distribution of narcan I've got I've got a couple of boxes of narcan in my office Uh, they're at the point right now where from a health standpoint Uh, they're willing to spread that around So that people can have a handy in case of there's an overdose the opiate clinic is, you know, so severe that, uh I mean, it's not frowned upon at all. You know, less than a year ago Uh, I had no idea about that then I went to a retreat for the Howard center And they were there handing these things out to everybody on the board that was at the retreat saying you're good Take this with you Tim, we were at a meeting the other night in the city of burlington Where there was a panel discussing safe injection sites And uh, I mean that's that's out of the box. Who knows whether or not that's going to be judged to be a viable approach to addressing A part of the opiate challenge that we're dealing with All of these things Fundamentally our responses to need and sometimes We don't have the capacity to respond to needs You know, we'd like to try but sometimes we don't for what whether it's cost whether it's our commitment the courage that we have but For kevin and our south burlington community to step up the way that they have here for this initiative It really it says a great deal for our community Uh I know that we're all mindful of what things cost but stepping up and Taking a leadership role in this Is really going to pay great dividends for our own community and for the area as well So this is the model that they've created It may be in a year or two that they can take a look at this program and figure out how it can be more Effectively operated and and funded But there are all kinds of benefits and outcomes To this that we can't even think about right now Fundamentally south burlington here is caring and is loving their neighbor and I appreciate all the effort that kevin and other people other police chiefs and community boards Who've all decided to step forward with us and try to solve a problem here Thank you I heard the chief say that we have been but he's given up hope on filling these police positions I would love to double our efforts to fill these police chiefs of these police positions because Whatever it takes. So I just think if we as a council want to have a discussion about recruitment methods I think we whatever it takes Well sounds like this program is a little bit It absolutely is it's it's it's it You know south burlington has been known to be on cutting edge of a lot of things not necessarily money things But initiatives and new programs and this clearly puts us, you know Bit ahead of the curve and it makes us more saleable and I have not council I've not given up. I'm a bit challenged, but I haven't given up. We can do it Any other comments or questions? Well, I would entertain a motion to um a group that endorsed the community outreach mental health partnership resolution I'd move to endorse the community Partnership between six chitin and county communities and the Howard mental health center Any further discussion All in favor signify by saying I I Thank you Thank you. And thank you And I appreciate your update and clarification of The purpose that money and we all are going to be really interested in I think it's important and I'm comforted that really the programs based on receiving the data that Um support Okay item 12 announcements and the city managers So And I also did attend the m