All right, I'm really excited today to be with Jen Loudon. She is just fantastic. Jen, I wanted to first say hi to you. George, I think you're fantastic. And I just want to say, I think you're doing such a good job with your teaching and your mission and your content. You know, I've watched you since you came on the scene. We've coached together. And I just think you've really had a deeply authentic place for you and you're such a good role model. And I'm learning from you and I save your posts and all kinds of things. I'm incredibly honored. Thank you. You're making me blush now. But let me first share with everybody your bio because I want people to know. I mean, I think a lot of the people who are watching this have either heard of you or have done your work or read a book or something like that. So let me read your bio and then we'll get into it. So Jennifer Loudon is a personal growth pioneer who helped launch the concept of self-care with her first bestseller, The Woman's Comfort Book. Since then, she's written six additional books on well-being and whole living, including The Woman's Retreat Book, The Life Organizer, close to a million copies of her books in print in nine languages. And her newest book is Why Bother, Discover the Desire for What's Next. Jennifer has spoken around the world, written a national magazine column for Martha Stewart Magazine, been quoted in two of Brene Brown's books and has appeared on hundreds of TV programs, radio shows, podcasts, even on Oprah, which is amazing. And there's a free chapter of Why Bother that you can download from JenniferLoudon.com, which of course I will put in the link, they'll put the link in the notes below. There's so much that I wanna ask you, but maybe we'll start with this. I don't know if you can give us what you feel is the premise of Why Bother, your latest book or one of the key points that people find helpful. Yeah, the main premise is Why Bother is built into being human. We may have it for an afternoon, hopefully we don't have it for a decade like someone I spoke to in a talk I've given since the book came out. And we pathologize it, we freak out about it, we try to solve it. And you may never say Why Bother y'all, when you may say it's too late and too old, there's no point, it's all been done, right? We all have our different language, the way we language it, but built into it is the answer, yes it is. You shouldn't bother. And so what I'm saying is normalize it and then actually ask the question. Of course things get taken from us, the pandemic is a perfect example, George. We were talking before you started recording that I usually make a big chunk of my income from live events, no live events last year. So of course Why Bother is sometimes we lose someone we love, sometimes it just creeps up on us from age, from doing something for a long time because I was just talking to someone who said they had gotten into doing work for money and not doing their great work, right? Very common thing that happens. So it's about getting curious, normalizing it and then going into this juncture, this sweet spot, this curiosity of building our energy and our desire again so we can actually move forward with more clarity. Yeah, it's beautiful. And tell me like the, who would be the ideal reader of the book? I mean, I know there's, you have lots of people in your audience so a lot of different types of people reading the book but I'm wondering if you could imagine who is the reader that might get the most out of the book? What, where is she in her life or her business? I will say the reader that I had in mind, I had two particular readers in mind. I had a woman who had never listened to what she wanted and had always done what she thought she should, right?  So she was, and I actually had three very clear legal people that I knew in mind. Another person had had a lot of success and wanted to do something new in her career, in her work. Her personal life was not a why bother but her career was but she was like, do I really have it in me to do it again? Do I care enough? What do I care enough about? I've had success, I could just keep doing the same thing. So she was, those are my two main people. And then interestingly, most of my books have been written for women, George, but this book actually has a guy readers and guy examples in it. Yeah, no, thank you for that. So one of the challenges I think people have with regards to well, inventing, reinventing themselves is, well, there's so many challenges but let's say there are external challenges and then there are internal challenges. Maybe we'll just break it down that way real quick and I don't know which part you wanna take first but how do you, what's the typical? Well, let's start with external challenges because oftentimes maybe it's easier to see possibly but what is a common external challenge you're seeing that keeps people from creating, from inventing, from really taking their fulfillment and career fulfillment in their life to that next level they could. Yeah, what exterior challenges get in people's way? I think maybe the three, the top, first one is money. You know, how am I gonna, if I make changes, how am I gonna pay the bills? The second one is no one's gonna support me. We're gonna threaten the family structure or the dynamics of power in the relationship or whatever. Even parents still, even for grown people, parents seem to still have a strong influence and then I think the third thing is the idea that you don't have time, that there's no time and then I would add a fourth energy but that is sort of exterior injury. Yeah, yeah and how you, I mean then I think the reality is that they're of course connected. Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things you talk about is having to define what is enough, I guess. And I think that's connected. That's kind of connecting the internal and external but talk about that. Why is it important? What does that mean? Yeah, I went through, I've been through lots of why bother times in my creativity and there's a lot about that and my business which are deeply intertwined and I wrote about that quite a bit in the book and there was one time I didn't write about this in the book that I was really stuck and so I went, I was invited on this really amazing right wish retreat, a creativity retreat. Everything was paid for, it was even your flight, it was these really luminary people.  And on that week, I wrote one of the most important sentences of my career and that was if you don't declare what is enough, you will never experience satisfaction. And our brains and our culture is wired to say if George likes me today, then I'm enough. If I fill my business mastermind, if we have a good Oasis launch, I'm enough. If I sell 50,000 copies of why bother, I'm enough, right? You fill in your own, right? If I keep everybody happy in my family, I am enough. That's never gonna go away but what I try to train people to do and train practice, because it's a practice is to declare on a daily basis, what's enough for me dependent on what I can do, not on someone's approval or outcome or sales or anything, but what can I do? And it's a subtle, powerful shift. I mean, every time I say it, George, I feel it right here, right? It reminds me of your energy reboot practice in a way, you know, because it's kind of bringing you back into your own energy, your own focus. It's not that those goals and desires for influence and sales and all that, they don't, are making your people happy. It doesn't go away, but you stop living out there, right? A little bit more of the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And it is, it's true, you know, so this brings me to like all of the internal, because what I see, the reason I kind of call this the external internal thing is because my guess, maybe let me know what you think about this, but there are, it's kind of like, we see what our framework is in here, you know, like we have lenses and that's how we see the world. And so sometimes what we consider to be external reasons that we can't, we can't, you know, take our business to the next level or create a new business or create more or whatever is because they are keeping me from doing it because I need to take care of them. Oh yeah. Because of these reasons, whatever the reasons are. And it's like, sometimes I wonder, it's like, is it really coming from within? That's creating the, right? But what's been your experience around that? Oh gosh, yes.  I did not make it up. And it's the idea that we all have certain things that we're comfortable doing. And then there's things that are outside of our immune system. And so when we go to do them, our immune system does, our emotional immune system does the same thing our physical immune system does, which is go, uh-uh, no, no. And so that's why you say, I'm gonna build this new business and suddenly you decided to get a promotion at work and you're working way more. And you're like, why am I doing the exact opposite what I said I wanted? That's our emotional immune system. Why am I watching so many hours of Netflix? Okay, it's a pandemic. Watch as much Netflix as you want. You know, special conditions right now.  I don't mean, you know, die, but humiliation, failure, public exposure, no one will ever love you again. You'll live in a motel six with 20, 25 minutes. Yeah, right, right. And sometimes there actually are people in our lives that are very comfortable with where we're at right now with things, with not being busier, with whatever work we're doing. You know, it's like the time we're spending with them, whatever it may be. And it's like, well, it seems like, well, then that's why I don't wanna rock the boat too much. And why is that person getting agency over your life? It's a good question. It's a good question. It's really worth coaching on, asking, right? But let's say, let's say that we were able to carve out the space and the time to create, you know, whatever, whether it's writing or a business, there's still a lot of hesitation around it. So some people, you know, and you actually sent me some notes in advance of this call. I'm like, these are brilliant. I'm like, okay, they need another certification or degree. Which a lot of the people, I think that we help ourselves included, like, you know, I have a master's degree. It's like, did I really need to get that master's degree? I was like, it's like, we, you know, we love to learn. And so naturally we love to, the fact that people are watching this means they love to learn. And so it's like, okay, there must be another secret that if I only knew that secret, that's gonna liberate me from finally creating it. It's gonna give me confidence. And you said something in your framework course. There is no truth with a capital T.  And the first time I published a book, I was like, okay, great, yeah, I got it. And then it came time to write the second book. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm allowed to think about something else. I'm allowed to have another set of thoughts that do more research. And then I wrote a few more books.  And I don't really believe that part of it anymore. Can I go tear out those pages from every book I ever wrote? Every book that was ever printed that has that in it. No, because you get to keep iterating and changing and growing. And I love how you said that in the framework course. And I believe that is so important to just remind ourselves over and over again. So it's not that the learning isn't great, it's, but why are we motivated to do it? Are we motivated to do it because we're finally gonna know the truth or the secret? And then we think we're gonna be confident. And confidence only comes through action. Yeah, yeah, this is so good. Yeah, I could completely resonate. I mean, relate to what you just said. I wanna rip out the pages of the early books. I'm literally writing a second edition of my first book right now. I'm like, how do I make the first book go away? It's just, you know, right? But- Try having almost a million copies of all those books in print. In fact, this is a funny side story but I'm divorced and remarried. And when I was going through my divorce from my first husband, we were together for 20 some years. And I woke up in the middle of the night and I set up in bed and I went, oh my God, I wrote a book about couples. I wrote the couples comfort book. What do I do? Oh my God, right? It was like, I just, it was like this physical, like I just gotta find every one of those copies and everyone overbought that book and say, I'm so sorry. I'm like, no, Jen, in fact, you don't, you never guaranteed that you were gonna stay married because you did the things in the book. Right, right. Yeah, that's the part where I think a lot of people are freaked out. It's like, okay, if I put it out there now, right? It's, what if I changed my mind? What if it's wrong, et cetera, et cetera. But you and I are living proof that it's okay. We can get through it. And actually, it's interesting. Like even the people who read the earlier stuff, maybe where we were at that stage is where they can benefit from, right? Exactly. The other thing I wanna say about this is I think of your creative life, business life, however, combination of things you do as a runway. And if you don't get a plane off of it, then no more planes can land. And I see this so much with the people I work with, they're like, oh, wait, not that plane. I'm gonna make a new plane. And I was like, no, no, no, you gotta finish the plane and let it take off. And that's how you actually learn and iterate.  You've gotta be seen. You've gotta share it. You've gotta iterate in public with other people. And this is terrifying to so many people I work with. They're just terrified of it. Yeah, I mean, that's a great analogy, what was it meant for? I never remember the difference. It's so embarrassing. Yeah, it's like what my English degree didn't help me with that. Exactly. But whatever it is, it's a really good example of, so brilliant because it's, I mean, I see this, for example, with people with their websites. It's like, they work so hard on a website. By the time they finish, they've already evolved past it and like, oh no. Oh my God, no. I mean, my website is so outdated that it's like. I know, we just like, we're just every now and then I'm like, okay, wait a minute, we checked the links and all of that. And then at one point we had, when it was really popular, you'd have a lot of pictures of yourself all over the site.   Like we'll do some things like that. But I see these people with beautiful websites and I have website envy, but I'm not about to spend my money and time on that. Yeah, I think that's smart. Well, because I mean. And logos, the obsession with logos. Someone coaches with me and they start with the logo on the tagline. I'm like, ah, ah, ah. Oh my gosh. Well, you're speaking from experience. I mean, you have sold lots of books. You have sold so many programs, retreats, obviously with, you have lots of clients. So it's like, you are someone who's speaking from a grounded place of what's actually important in business. So maybe let's switch gears a little bit. You have a business mastermind that you're launching. Your first business mastermind, you should have been doing this a long time ago because you already have so much experience in business.  Yeah, usually behind the scenes. Behind the scenes, exactly. High level will come or something. You know, a couple one-off sessions, but yeah. So now you're actually structuring your business mastermind. So let's talk about it. So what is, what are you going to be helping people work on? And just so, you know, there's not that everyone watching this has to join your business mastermind. Yeah, no, it's going to be very small. It's not for everyone. But give us kind of a bit of the framework of what you feel people should work on to really launch their play. Yeah, that's a really good question. I want to say one thing about why I haven't done it before. And that is because there's so much unethical business stuff out there. I don't want to be anywhere near it. But when I went, I went through my own why bother time the end of last year. And there was one of the things that came out that I really wanted to do was take this 30 years of experience and my deep ethics and create a container for people to share that. So anyway, I just wanted to get that context. So what I, one of the things that's coming to me that's always been a genius of mine, but I've usually done it live on retreats is bringing a group of like-minded people together. In this case, I'll be applications and hand selected. And then really listening to what concerns they have and building something from that. Like I'm great at that. Oh, I see that you need some help with this. I need to land the plane. I'm not land the plane, get the plane flying and then land the next one. So it'll be really customized. But I think that the highlights that I see in the masterminds I've been part of as a participant is you cannot do this alone. You can't do business alone. It's crazy hard. There's all the technical stuff and all the offers and business models and all that stuff. But to me, it's the inner work. What has messed me up in business is what I call them root stories or root beliefs.  So I have to give you more and more and more. I had undiagnosed learning differences until almost the end of college. So I have a lot of deep shame about my brain. Shame about my brain. I got shame about my brain. So I used to over-provide a lot. We need other people to help us get clear, to have that safe place to go, okay, this is the thing I'm offering. Now, what tell me again? Now, what is that exactly? I mean, we need those people to help us language things. We need other people. So I'll be the expert guide and you'll get individual coaching every month from me. But then we'll meet every week. And so really helping the group to brainstorm and hive mind together. Where are you at? What's holding you back? Is it your business model? Is it your pricing? Is it your over-providing? Is it that you hide, that you cannot stand to market because you think it's sleazy? What is it between you and greater profit? And I'll tell you, George, the sexiest word in the business, lexicon is incremental. So this will be about how can you make real incremental changes that bring you more profit? Because I'm all about what money do you get to keep? Yeah, totally, totally. Absolutely. You know, so much you said there is worth unpacking. I mean, one of the things is, of course, I'm surprised to hear about the learning difficulties or whatever. You know, I'm surprised and I'm not surprised because you're so much stronger today because you have done whatever is needed to overcome that and to be able to succeed in the world. And I still do it, George.  It's okay that you make spelling errors. It's okay that if you ever give a time to your team or a date, it is the wrong time and the wrong date because it's one of my dyslexic things. You know, I'm constantly working on that, soothing myself and just taking the shame out of it. Totally, wow. That's amazing. I've mentioned this before to others, but it's like when people don't know that I used to be extremely shy, I was bullied as a kid for being quiet because I didn't speak up in class. Of course, blah, blah, blah. But anyway, long story short, through a lot of nurturing and practice, et cetera, now you can't get me, you know, off of video.   What happened? But the other thing you said that's so interesting, you know, related to this is over providing. That's really interesting. I noticed that dynamic within myself, but I think a lot of people who care, which everybody watching this, right? Like a lot of us who care, who want to teach classes or work with clients, whatever.  Yeah, so talk about that a little bit here. How do we notice that we're doing that? That's a great question. Yeah, I think one of the things that I would do and often you'll have to do this with someone else and we will do this in the business mastermind, but you could do it with peers, you could do it with family. My husband can do it for me. What do you see me doing that is too much? So start to get some outside eyes and then start to keep a list and keep a piece of paper on your desk. What are your triggers that start you in the over providing? So for some people, it's if a launch isn't going well. Oh, let me just throw some more stuff in there. Let me lower the price. For some people it's if they have a client and a client doesn't seem to be making progress. For a client of mine, I haven't done individual coaching forever, but I did a bunch of it last year because of the pandemic and not doing live events and doing all kinds of pivots. And some of those people are still continuing this year. But so she has, I doubled her business. She's just amazed at what she's doing, but she's doing something, she offered a harder program, a longer program and people started to struggle and she started to freak out. Oh my God, it's not as easy for them. So it's like, right, so you have to remind them. It's not just give them the, you know, more can I give you? It's to stop and go, okay, how do I reassure them? It's normal right now for you to feel it's hard. So one of the things I'll coach people to do is watch for the moments you're freaking out. They're so uncomfortable, but have someone there to talk you down. What do you think you're doing wrong? Cause we wanna get results, right? We want sales, we want results. We want our results that feed us and we want our results that feed our clients. And we're not going south. The other thing we have to look for is when we're really exhausted and burned out cause that's the perfect time to over provide and give the store away, right? Wow, so much here. Well, I wanna be respectful of your time. And so I wanna, yeah, thank you for the books you've written, the content you put out there on social media, the just the spirit with which you approach your work. Excited to let people know about the business mastermind to be able to work with you on this. Of course it's gonna be a smaller group, but I'm sure you'll provide other things for those who can't fit into the group for some reason. I'll have the links below, but is there anything else you wanna say about the business mastermind before we close? I'm just very excited. It's exciting to let myself do something different. And I love tapping into so much that I've learned the hard way because as much success as I've had, I've had way more failures. And just being able to love learning from my own experience in that small kind of group with people, yeah. Yeah, that kind of group allows us to, well, launch because we are supported by a lot of cheerleaders and if and when we have a failure experience or mistake or whatever, we have a soft place to land. And a lot of people don't know, right? But people like us who seem to be out there and we have launches and things, yeah, we have a lot more failures than most people see. But that's why we need friends or a mastermind like this to be able to support us. Well, Jen, thank you so much for the work that you do. Maybe any final encouragement words of creating for those who are watching or listening? Yeah, I think if you find yourself feeling why bother, do be aware that as a planet, we're really suffering right now and you pick up on that. You pick up on that energy, even if nothing, even if you're happy and safe in your home and the people you love are well, we pick it up. And so there's a lot of why bother in the air right now. And at the same time, we've never needed, we've never needed to create more.  And if it needs to be tiny and incremental right now, that's totally cool. This, I feel like is a year of transition for so many of us as we get through this strangeness. And I think this fall will be in a new place. It's beautiful, perfect way of ending. Thank you so much, Jen. Thank you, George. So be sure to check out the book. It's got amazing reviews. The Business Mastermind, for those, the few of you who I think are ready for that, you can check it out. And any other links, I'm sure we'll put below. That goes to Jen's work and social media. So thank you, Jen. Thank you, George, you're wonderful.


Good evening everyone i'm just going to provide an update on the phase one open space works or areas that we're currently under construction. i'm going to move on to the some update on house building and the highway infrastructure work so i'm kind of brought it, broadening this out a little bit than the title in the agenda, so if we start with the open space areas. To the east, they can see the water park feeling along towards the West, the Northern Greenway connecting up to the Western Park. As you aware, we've been working on this since. July, August last year, it is. constrained by seasonal constraints, unfortunately, but. Throughout the last quarter of those two quarters of this year, we have been finishing off all the planting works, and we have been finishing off the seeding works so may was unseasonably wet and that kind of put us behind, but we have now finally completed all the seeding works throughout at the end of June. We started in the water park on the East and we work towards, as I said, the Western Park in the West, so the steed has started to germinate, I can see a nice green hue across the area across the site. Our contractors are still on site at the moment, carrying out marginal and aquatic planting they've got 50,000 of those to install, but they should be completed with those works at the end of this week. There's also some snagging works to the main three meter wide asphalt cycleway combined cycleway footway and those works are ongoing. The water park and the remaining sections of greenways and the two play areas, which you can see here designated as leap one and lead to. will get them opened up as soon as the grass establishes I think at the last forum based on completion of the seeding at the end of May, I suggested. Certainly we're talking about early summer, but I suggested sort of the end of June beginning of July. When our month behind completion of the seeding, so I think the best thing I can do at this point in time looking at where we are now is just tell you that will we hope to have these these areas opened up for use by the public during August. Is it is difficult to predict how long it will take the grass to grow, especially over 23 acres of those sites there, but. We have no incentive tool to keep these areas closed off. We want to get them opened up and I would imagine that there will be some kind of compromise between grass establishment plant establishment and general access to the public. Okay, moving on to the highway works as an update should be another drawing on the screen, hope you can all see that. So during the last quarter or the second quarter of the year we've completed about 200 meters of footway and future cycle way. On Eagle way in front of David Wilson homes and Taylor wimpy and in the next quarter, the third quarter of this year. We look to complete another 200 meters somebody asked a question regarding the. Somebody asked a question regarding the grass around about on path find a way that is still under our control maintenance, it does look neglected, we have. reappointed another contractor actually to to go and sort that area out so within the next couple weeks that area will be sorted but we're just going to grass it will see the areas that have planting in there originally or previously and then see those areas. But I said I thought provider will be useful to provide an update on the house building progress. And the works currently anticipated completion or current anticipated completions of these completions and the completions on the local Center Square local Center and the employment zone. are key to enable us to complete the main infrastructure works footway cycle ways and carriage ways along path find a way Stirling road Wellington road links lane and Eagle way. Before I get into that I think it'd be useful just to repeat again the three stages of the construction delivery of the high infrastructure. That's kind of built into our multiple or multi outlet development model. So it's stage one and this has happened before any of the house building works commence as we come to site. We clear the site we carry all the main earthworks bottoming facial attenuation ditches and lakes. We complete any upside highway improvements in this case for phase one of the station road. We bring a service reinforcements onto the site from other upside for facilities. But we install the main distributor roads throughout the site and again in this case that would have been and has been far find a way Stirling road links lane Wellington road and Eagle way. We take the So the installation the main roads throughout the event and this is only up to the inside of surface course and this is installed with temporary sacrificial curbs. We also carry out installation the main strategic utility mains and these sit within the proposed footpaths and in this instance from also phase one under the on road cycle ways stage to this occurs during and following the progress of the building works. So service connections removal of the temporary scaffold sorry temporary and sacrificial curves we install the permanent curves. We construct the footways and again the on-ride cycle ways between the frontage buildings and the roads. We carry out the installation of the street lights and highway landscaping works where this is applicable. In stage three we top out. Complete all the finishing works surface course to the footways and roads we install the permanent signage we install the permanent road markings. As these ways these works progress to stage three works we then look to obtain. Adoption of the on-site development highway from the highway authority in this instance. This is Cambridge County Council. So just with that as a backdrop looking at what you've got actually on the screen there. It shows the current completions. Building housing completions and percentage completions. Of the individual building plots out of the summer out of the 13 residential building plots that we have on phase one four of them have been fully completed and the remaining eight sorry remaining nine. Which I could do maths. Are at different stages of completion ranging from just started for instance plot H-13, Taylor Wimpy down on H-13 has just started. And plot H-11, Taylor Wimpy and Eagle Way is almost complete. I think the total occupations to the middle of May throughout phase one was circa 800 and I think it was 39 that I saw. And that's out of a planned total of 1500. So that kind of puts us at 55. I think Richard mentioned earlier we were heading up for 1000. So let's assume we're kind of 60% complete on occupations out of that 1500 and the build completions will be slightly more than this. The good news is that all the four house builders currently anticipate completing building works by the end of 2023. So this is two years ahead of the previous predictions that were made 18 months ago. I'll emphasise at this point that it is conditional on the current point housing market conditions continuing, but there's certainly commitment from the house builders to achieve this target. Hopefully you're aware that the local centre square which Ricardo mentioned earlier and the enterprise zone sorry if I offended you by calling it something different regarding earlier on. But they're now owned by SCD and you can see there is momentum behind these areas being developed as well. It's my understanding that completion of these areas are in roughly the time scale is completion of the house building works. So that's towards the end of 2023 maybe just creeping into 2024, but you know Andrew or certainly SCDC will need to confirm that. So subject to the above, this will mean by two years. And therefore we currently anticipate completing by the end of 2024 achieving substantial completion. My internet connection became unstable there by the end of 2024 and then adoption of the roads they follow 12 month maintenance period normally by the end of 2025. So again just focusing in on the map on the screen the the blue lines represent the footways that we have constructed completed to date the both the highway footways and the leisure route footways. All the leisure route footways that you see on there are complete accepted connection up between the between where the pavilion sports pavilion and the car park will be constructed. But we do intend to put a temporary connection in there that before the end of August. So accommodate the shed September, some of these some some of the highway footways are fully complete with the topping on them and some of them are up to underside of surface course. I've also just noticed that we've missed the temporary footway that we put in from Stirling way to the busway. As I mentioned previously the delivery of the footways to stage two are fully dependent on the progress of the house building frontage works. So the service. The frontage houses are made by the house builders to our strategic strategic service main so the gas water electric telecoms that we laid within the proposed footways and dedicated cycle ways in stage one. So until these and the house building works have been fully completed. We're not able to move on to our stage two works. So the leisure route footways in the water park and the section of Northern Greenway between Lyndon and by this homes that you can see running through here in this section of the footways in the water park as I said earlier, we'll be looking to to open that up in August. There's also missing section I think I mentioned that earlier the footpath that runs between the pavilion and the car park. But again that will be installed in August is temporarily as mentioned earlier. So I think as you can see there is quite a good coverage of footway links running from east to west and north to south, but this will improve as the quarters roll by over the next 30 months. So moving on to cycle ways these are shown here in red the dedicated infrastructure cycle ways are shown as a continuous red line. The combined footways and cycle ways are shown as a dotted line. Who's me the extent coverage and the connectivity of the dedicated highway cycle ways. As you can see on here I'll just flip back to the footways. This kind of is significant significantly less and there are gaps where the frontage house building works have not be completed. And where we have constructed footways ahead of the house building works that's mainly in front of the enterprise zone in the mixed local center area. They're mainly sacrificial and they'll have to be removed and replaced. So these gaps in the cycle way on the main infrastructure works will be filled in over the next 30 months. So during 2024 following completion of the building works and consequently a significant reduction in construction traffic. And when we expect to have full connected connectivity along the highway dedicated cycle ways will apply the red topping to the dedicated cycle ways will install the associated signage and paint markings and at this point. They will become operational as dedicated cycle ways. Just moving on to the last slide here that's just really a footnote to what I've discussed earlier. When the secondary school opened. We installed or we signed and designated this footway route as a combined cycle way and footway so that there was access down to the secondary school. So that concludes my section of this and Sam I believe you're going to pick up on the general connectivity site wide. Yes, hi. Good evening everyone. Are you able to put up those. Go back to the presentation. So my slides are much more simplistic than Stevens. And for that I apologize, but I just wanted to talk generally about movement around North State and particularly movement between phase one and phase two. And then also to touch on movement between phase one and the secondary school campus. So you can see a plan here taken from open street map, which is very comprehensive for North State. And I've shown on the plan here the blue lines are roots are currently open and available to be used. So these are highlighted really with the connection that Stevens installed from the park and rides down to Stirling road in the very top. I don't know if you can see my cursor moving about probably not. So hopefully you can follow where I'm talking about. And then also the there's the section of the bus only road from Stirling road going up to the path finder school and then past finder school to Eagle Ray that's completed. And then on the Western side you've got the paths and routes within the Western sports area. Thank you John I can see your your cursor there. So other weeks are available to use is a connection from that Western sports area into Magdalene close just in Longstown and just to the just down a bit John down a bit more. There, yep, there's a connection there into Longstown and and also to the south. Magdalene close that's it that area there. Yep. And then from there you can get on to ramp and ramp road I think it is which goes past ramp ramp and drift that area there. And I'm homes England have stored a tarmac path that goes from ramp to drift and links back on Stirling road. So you can see that there's a bit securities but there's a root there of if you didn't want to use the nice path that's been built along Stirling road. That's even mentioned in this last slide, but that's an alternative route. The red lines are roots should be opening this year and Stevens touch upon the Northern Greenway, which is going from Pathfinder school past London and Bovis and all set of roots through the water park. And that's it wonderful John thank you. And also the the other red line in the centre of the image is the continuation of the bus only road and where it joins between phase one phase two. And so you if you go to the edge of ramp and drift you'll see that phase two homes England have built their section and Stevens built his bit and the two bits need to be joined up together now and I think that's to be happening later on this year. And that will afford another roots that's that's a way from vehicles from the centre of North State from you'd be able to go from Pathfinder school down that personal road join up with the path that runs and drift and then across the Stirling road. Now within phase two homes England have constructed the cycle paths. Slightly Newer standard than what Stevens able to do, because they're in homes England's area they have a separate roots that they can use for their construction lawyers, so they don't have to worry too much about the lawyers damaging the road surface, which is the human phase one. So once you join Stirling road at the boundary into phase two, which is where the the path from ramp and drift is and where the red line from the water park joins, then you want to cycle path there all the way down to the secondary school. So as you're if you're new to North State you'll kind of discover these roots and places. And if you're a long standing resident in North State, hopefully you can follow where I'm talking about. John, could you move to the oh sorry I'll talk about the purple lines, the purple lines are just the roots to happen in the future so that's the southern greenway principally. And as Stephen was saying they those will be in by 2024, but they really complement the the movement network and as the houses and parcels get completed, then all of the different routes through those parcels should designed to connect from parcel to parcel. And almost be an expert network of roots, they'll take shape and form and a good example of that is the the green area within. I think Taylor in peace plots h11 john if you can move your cursor right into the center. Yeah, so there's a green route that passes from there roughly down to Eagle Ray. And then that will cross over into the next parcel and join up essentially the southern greenway with the northern greenway. And if you go to the northern greenway, and you're at the, the area between Pathfinder school and Linden homes, you'll see a bridge. And you think what's that bridge therefore well that bridges to connect that route across the greenway into the parcel which is yet to be started between that greenway and the bus only road. So there's another network of roots that will appear over time. John, if you could go to the next slide if possible. Now we're, that's immediately on the horizon and the county council is focused on and the town council is focused on and there's been several questions in the chat about is, is how do we connect from long stands and parking ride into north day. And this is really saying with the, again, we've got the blue lines and the red lines talked about to the blue that's possible now, and many thanks to Stephen for being able to install the the blue line from Stirling road to the park and ride you can see on the left hand side of the image. And you got your cursor around any way around. And the purple lines are the lines that the county council is focused on delivering. So at the top end, the path link to connect from park and ride to the path within the water park, and then towards the middle of the image, the north south link which is the bus only road. And, again, we've been working on these links for some time, the key you see for us is funding. And we've tried to resolve that. And so in terms of time scales and delivery timescales, I can't give you a date. I'd love it to be September. You know, for the path link at least, but I don't know so I'm not going to promise anything. It's all to do with colleagues and I'm trying to facilitate both discussions and and get colleagues focused on on those schemes and also find money for them. So that's an update for me and happy to take any questions.


Hi, I'm Becca Neal. I'm really not good at Twitter. Awesome. So what we want to ask you to do on the next slide is first introduce yourself. So if you will just go in the chat box and share your name and if you want to share your Twitter handle go for it. But also share anything else that you'd like to share about your context and maybe why you're here. And then we have this like super interactive gift that is going to go wild Becca back on or mercy I'm sorry mercy back on the previous slide if you don't mind. Yeah, whoops, almost there. The crazy gift is where we want to be. Yeah, great. So thanks everyone who's already showing up in the chat letting us know if you're having any trouble seeing the slides. I'm also putting a link to the published version of the slides that you can follow along. The published version of the slides also has some embedded links so that as we open links so you can follow along. And of course you can have access to this slide deck because we are open type of folks.  But if we let's see mercy we lost the slide deck. If we take just a minute and think about what you see here in this gift. I'm excited to welcome you from all over different universities different part of the state. So shout out to everyone love senior Twitter handles will be sure to follow up with you. Is it more a Anna I love what you're sharing about interested in licenses beyond Creative Commons so that's something that will definitely tried to back and Brandon if you don't mind maybe making a note if you see any of those specific questions that we can dig into and we get a little bit later. And yes love seeing that some of you are already collaborators in regards to the open field so shout out to Helen and the work that she's already doing for open access.  So we're glad to have you here. But here's a different circle to think of which is a connection to kind of the process of science. So, just curious about what you see other than the crazy blinking of the gift. What do you notice about this image. And so I'll take give you a minute just to look at it and then we'll we'll debrief for a minute so in the chat box. If you will share anything that you notice about this image. Yes, I didn't realize that the gift blinked quite so fast when I picked it. So it's a little small but I think that Mariana noticed this, the publish is there right like, and I think the franticness of publish is actually about right for what people feel that there's this emphasis in research cycle around publish so no matter what of academics you're in you might be constantly feeling this emphasis to publish. And I really love what Mariana said about publishing can happen at any point. Mariana would you want to I participants able to unmute I can't remember if I can grab her right. Mariana maybe I don't think I can unmute you maybe if you'd be willing to share a little bit more in the chat box or this is an invitation for any of you to share. Why is publishing at any point that's such a great point to bring up why is publishing at any point really important to the work of openness. A lot of you I see are already really engaged in open scholarship, whether it's officially with an organization, or whether it's kind of on your own. And so would love for you to just kind of share a little bit more about what Mariana said around like publishing and how does that have to do with being open. So, I'm a big chat box lover during the webinar so that it doesn't feel quite so much like sit and get but a little bit more like talk. Yeah I love the comment about it's post to be shared. And I think that we can move away from this perfectionism idea that I can't publish until everything is exactly perfect but I can ask for help in the process I can share widely and so I think that a big part of what we're going to challenge you to do today is Marcy offered this theme for the webinar of how to share creatively. And there was a point in the comment box about moving beyond just creative Commons licenses and looking at how we share behavior and education research is the unconference that's coming up really soon. I think there's there's a ton that that we might think about the traditional way that we've shared resources and kind of push that point. Crystal brings up that sharing the process at multiple points really increases our efficiency so awesome and Sue mentions people being able to observe the science, because we want to see how it's happening. So, as we start to move beyond the traditional I wait till everything is perfect and Marcy yet next slide for us if you don't mind. All rights reserved is kind of the traditional copyright so those of you who are copyright experts, this feels really comfortable to you, you know that the traditional copyright is all rights reserved. And one of the really great things that I love to offer to educators and to, you know, anyone is the minute that you create intellectual property you own that copyright you are the author. And so that's really exciting for some folks who don't realize like hey once I make something I'm the creator I own the rights to this, and I can control how it's presented distributed used and remixed which has to do with what we call derivative rights. So what we're really inviting you to do is we move forward away from what I'll kind of call the dark side of like oh I'm going to keep everything in the dark until it's perfect and then I'll share it, and moving towards come into the light side right I call open sharing like the light side come on over. And once you know you can't know once you know how easy it is to share. And of course I always use the story of Wikipedia and how people thought that crowdsourcing was this like awful idea and would never work and we'd end up with so many errors if we crowd sourced and openly shared and that's not necessarily what we've seen and those of you who know the history of Wikipedia know the importance of academics and especially science and moving Wikipedia forward so I wanted to just make sure that we all have this common language around what open licensing means so openly licensed is where there's a formalized specific way of allowing open access. The traditional way especially in science is that you had to pay to access and now that even move to like you have to pay to publish for other people to access so we shared a few readings down at the bottom we're not going to dig into but we shared a few readings on the history of copyright and scientific publishing and the mess that is scientific publishing so this is inspiring you to kind of like nerd out on publishing and what you know and how to undo what you previously thought and then there are some resources there for you and we we do want to bring up as we shared that Creative Commons is one of the leaders in open licensing. And so on the next slide, I'll just kind of share the main examples of the Creative Commons licenses. There are other ways to allow for open sharing. One of the struggles when people first started open sharing is that the way open sharing was done was through the terms of use. So people would write very long lengthy terms of use that might say well you can share this with 20 people but not 21 and you can share it. This way but not that way in terms of use got really, really complicated and it became a barrier to sharing openly and Creative Commons is a nonprofit that helped overcome those legal obstacles to sharing. And so that language that's there is kind of their description of who they are. But just want to get a feel in the chat box real quickly for whether or not you've seen these licenses before so if you can just give us a yes if you've seen the Creative Commons licenses before. And a no if you haven't, then that'll let me know if I should spend a few minutes or move on through. Yes, there goes that there goes that chat box. And those of you who have not seen the Creative Commons licenses yet. The link is there and again here's the link to the published side so that you can have those embedded links. If you open that link, you can dig down a little rabbit hole of what Creative Commons and the licenses are. Those of you who have seen it before if you'll now go to the chat box and share again if there's a particular license that you feel super drawn to. And I might even have a license that you feel super not drawn to so feel free to share that David CC by or bus. Yes, I love that enthusiasm. For those of you who are new to Creative Commons CC by means that you give attribution Creative Commons by you give attribution, you can use it in any way shape or form. You have to give credit to those who made it. And then I love Jonathan's point about CC by SA share alike to keep things open so that folks can't use your work and then turn around and put a more restrictive license on it so that other people can't use it. I have a question about non commercial. That one is the trickiest one that there is because non commercial we say means that you can't make any money off of it, but Brandon, who's our more legal level expert of the licenses would probably say like Well, there's this that and the other things so Brandon the basic X or I'm sorry Bart the basic explanation of non commercial does mean that you cannot use it for commercial reasons you could not take something that's open and put it in a textbook that you go publish and make money off of, but it gets a little bit there. And Jean or Jean. Yes, share like can be a little problematic when mixing resources, because if I take this one and it has a particular license and I want to remix it with this other one that has a different license what license do I put on it, and we're going to get into that particular in the webinar. So I'm going to take us through and I don't think well. Yeah, I don't think I'm going to play the game that's on the next slide, mercy if you want to advance to the next slide. I'll just kind of share with you all that it's a really cool game that if you, if you have people that you're sharing common licenses with and you want to teach them the game that's on here is a Creative Commons license game, and you can share and it's a drag and drop and it helps you practice your licenses but I think you all are already expert level. So the next slide is just where we want to welcome you to join today. So those of you who might be multitaskers. Here's your challenge.  So you don't already have a platform to share resources. I'll put this link in the chat box. And this is a link to one platform where you can share openly. And once you make a account on OER Commons you can join the open science open scholarship knowledge based hub and join the groups and contribute the resources. So if you've got something that you're ready to share.  One of our kind of higher level engagement things for today that we hope you might do is share a resource and so the Center for open science is hosting this open scholarship knowledge base hub.  So this hub has a place to share resources to join a group and have discussion. So we invite you to go ahead and create your account so that you can go to the hub and join the group and we'll remind you about doing this a little bit later. I know that before you're ready to share you might have some questions about how you're going to share and what you want to share. Before we start to dig into your questions I did also just want to offer this why and then ask for your why. So this diagram is a why about why open science. There may be many reasons that some of you already brought up in the chat box, but I'd love to just give you a moment to really think about your why around open science, because you're here for a reason, maybe because you wanted to learn something or join a group. But I think that in order to keep the work moving forward, we have to really be driven by that why so would love to just ask you in the chat box. What's which maybe it's one of these that's your why maybe you have a different why for open science but would just love for you to share in the chat box. What's your why around open science, because I think that that why can drive questions that you have an engagement that you do. And the hub is all about bringing people together so you might find somebody on here the track, I have to connect with April, or I love crystals idea she had a really great point about XYZ and I really want to connect with her so I'm just going to give you a minute and be comfortable with to think about your why and share it in the chat box. Wow crystal has a really good point all of these I think I know I know as I read these it adds to my why. And so I think this is a really, really great community that came to the table to the webinar today and I know Marcy is going to be in touch with you all after today so that we can help drive each other's why forward. Yes, ooh Helen the respect about the research love it. So, as we go to the next slide I'd love for you to keep sharing those wise in the chat box, and yes, Jonathan I love the shouting out of each other's answers and this is how we build the community this is how we move from a restricted rights reserved copyright facing, especially science and academic publishing problem to the place where we can share openly. So, as you're shouting out each other, maybe you read something and you say like, Oh, now I have a question and this made me wonder about this and this made me wonder about that. Start populating those questions in the chat box so that we can get to them. What we're going to do now is move into a specific Q&A we took some frequently asked questions and Becca and Brandon are going to give you the quick answer. And after today's webinar Marcy, we're going to work to compile a deeper level of questions that include your questions, and you'll be getting a copy of the recording as well as a FAQ sheet itself. Let's take it away. And our first question, some questions that you might be considering as you move to be open. Will my work receive as much engagement if I don't publish in a large publication. All right, I believe this one's me I'll kick us off here. So again hi everyone I'm Becca. So whereas Brandon is of course the literal legal expert here. I am a librarian that focuses a lot on access and accessibility and so this is, this is a question that I get a lot. And it's a question that is, it's an idea that's kind of perpetuated by publishers and by non open publishing communities right. You have these mainstream traditional journals that everybody wants to publish and they have their high citation indexes and all of that business. The answer to this is, it will receive the same amount of engagement possibly more possibly a little bit less but there are lots of factors involved here so, for example, one thing you want to keep in mind whenever you're publishing open right you have taken away that financial barrier for access. And so you need to be thinking really about this this this notion of discoverability, and from the library side of things from the back is that has to do with indexes. So, for example, if you're publishing in an open journal, is it part of the directory of open access journals. This is a huge index that is piped into a lot of discoverability tools like the aggregator databases to your big epskos, and possibly most importantly Google scholar, right so is it is it there. Likewise, can you put either the full published or a version of your work in perhaps an institutional repository. So if your university has an IR. The vast majority of those are also piped out to Google scholars so they are findable for folks who are not, or who can't get past certain financial barriers that traditional publishers tend to impose. Thanks Becca so much information there. I was like practically grabbing some keywords that she says so we'll be sure to kind of send that out deeper as well so that when you're looking to promote your work that you have that knowledge and let's see our next question. How do institutional or campus contracts or intellectual property policies affect what I can share and how I can share it. So, I think, enter the lawyer right and I have to have to give the disclaimer that you know I should probably like tattoo this on my chest so I can just like, you know, bear it and show you but like, I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer and if this was legal I would be surprised it would be followed by a bill right but but I'm very happy to talk about these issues and give you some information right so the answer here is that institutional contracts or policies can definitely change your rights in a number of ways for good or right and so, for example, many campuses have open access policies, and under the open access policies that these campuses have implemented, you know, typically through like a faculty governance process like a faculty senate. So that that policy actually creates a license for the university to host open versions of your research and that license pre exists and trumps to use a word I don't love to say the publishing license that you may sign later with your publisher and so that is a way of protecting them by sort of creating a barrier around them in a way that prevents the publisher from grabbing them automatically right because your your institution has already taken a license and the publisher can't undo that. There are other interesting policies so for example, if you're engaged in sponsored research, you may have an agreement with the sponsor of your research whether that's a funder like the National Institutes of Health, or an industry partner and a kind of public private partnership. And those kinds of agreements also may include IP, you know, terminology that say well everything that you do as part of this grant either has to be kept open has to be published in a particular repository, or to the contrary has to be kept secret given only to the industry partner and not published for five years in order to protect their patents so all of that stuff should be on your list of things to read and understand before you figure out whether you can also use a Creative Commons license or any open license, because all of those other agreements came first, and you have to make sense of those and figure out what they mean for you before you can decide whether you have any rights left to license to the world with an open license. And then and just to add this is a great place for advocacy and discussion that you can have with your department and with your broader university because there may be folks who don't understand the opportunity for open. So our next question. Can I make my work open and publish it in traditional outlets like subscription journals or scholarly books. So if you have the right to license your work however you want. Thank you both. It's a great answer and a great question I'll give a not great answer and it's it depends. And so that's going to be the case with so many of these scenarios because again so many mitigating factors but it primarily depends on as Brandon was talking about the Polish, the policies that the publishers that you're working with are enforcing and I come across in scholarly books in the wild. Sometimes you see little notations at the beginning or end of a chapter. This work was previously published in external right so there are some publishers that do allow for for publishing in multiple venues and kind of sharing those around. But it all comes down to what what the publisher says and here there is a little bit of leeway to again if we talk about versioning of the resource. So let's say you publish in a traditional subscription journal. Oftentimes you're going to be able to publish either a preprint or the author's manuscript that has been peer reviewed but not quite copy edited. That can be put into an institutional repository to again boost your discoverability in in things like Google scholar and databases and things like that. So moral of the story it depends but do you take a look at the policies that you're working with. Yeah, I just I want to put in a good word for this strategy of, I guess, you know what has in the past been called like green open access, you know where you can kind of have it both ways in some sense you publish in a traditional place but you also have an open version and, you know, I, there's a great article I'm going to dig out and I'll put a link in the chat. So my solution to one of the kind of dark sides of open access which is that some of the pay to publish open access outlets are extremely expensive and they're recreating the same kind of inequity that we wanted open access to solve by making it hard for authors to afford to participate in the same way that subscriptions make it hard for readers to afford to participate. So this notion of kind of having it both ways publishing an open version can be a way for some authors to affordably take advantage of open licenses and open access. Thanks Brandon will watch the chat box for that link and before we go to the next question just want to ask you all all the participants a question, have you published anything openly yet. Do you want to share anything about your journey of publishing openly and how you came to the open world or whatever you want to share in the chat we want to hear it and we want to know it. So feel free to make that chat box fly as Marcy takes us to the next question. What if I adapt existing works. So this was something that we saw earlier in the chat box where we were asking you about the licenses and let's see. If you're not shared about if I'm adapting certain licenses can be challenging. So how does that work with licensing and attribution if you're adapting something that's existing. So I can jump in on that one too. When you're adapting from an existing work. You know the first thing to be sure to understand is whether the license on that work is going to let you do it. Right. And then, of course, the, the interesting thing about Creative Commons licenses is that all of them except for the zero one, my personal fave. All of them except for the zero include an attribution requirement. So if you are adapting from CC licensed work, you still need to give proper attribution to the work as part of what you're doing in order to comply with the license and so you're permitted to adapt, you're expected to also attribute. And just make sure you know to attribute in the way that the author indicates they would like to be attributed.  It's really clear what was original and what was changed and so when you're doing an adaptation I think it's really helpful to, to attribute to the original link to the original and give a sense of what your adaptation is. Thanks. Okay, so our next question and love seeing some of you share your resources if there's one in particular you want to go ahead and drop in the chat box go for it. Our next question is about fair use which is super sticky. How can I incorporate. Can I ever incorporate into my fair use copyright works or portions of works that don't have open licenses in my OER work and how can I do this and back up before you dig into this if you'll just give everyone the best definition you can a fair use since it is so sticky. Absolutely so I'm going to pull up a link and pop it in the chat. So, very uses essentially it's it's a limitation to copyright. And all of that is explained in the guide that I just kind of shipped along and I'm sure Brandon also agree with great great definition here, but it's it's a way for for you to be able to to use pieces of work. And the problem is not problem the adventure in fair use is that that there are essentially there are four factors involved right so whenever you are contemplating using a copyrighted work you have to think about the purpose and the character of your use of that work you have to think about the nature of the work that you are using. You have to think about the amount of the work that you're using right you can't just take somebody else's full book and republish it as your own that's very not fair use. And of course the market effective your use and this is where things get really tricky and education because there is a lot of times this this, this common notion that there's like a blanket fair use for education right so you can use whatever you want in your courses and it's totally fine that's not correct. So, whenever you're using copyrighted works you need to be thinking through these these different factors right and again the answer to this is always it depends right it's totally dependent on how you're using a work and what you're using. So, I'm looking at reading this question here because I might have gone on a tangent yeah so that the answer to this is really similar to the answer to the question Brandon just just answered in that. You know, it's kind of like if you're just deciding something in a paper right you go by your fair use factors and then just proper legal attribution practices. And so the only thing that's that's exactly right and the only thing I'll add. And first of all, I'm going to go find there's another good thing I'll drop in the chat there's a very recently ish published best practices and fair use for we are. So that document is super helpful, but the very short version is exactly what Becca just said you know fair use is there for you it applies in the context of your use in the same way it would in any other context. And the one wrinkle to think about or the thing that I always stress is when you incorporate other people's works into your own work under fair use. It's similar to if you incorporated their work into your own work under a license, you need to market and sort of attribute it so that someone for example who is who picks up your sort of open access textbook. So, and your textbook says CC by on the front. They don't flip to the third party, you know, material that you relied on fair use to put in there, and, and believe that that material is subject to your license, right. So they need to understand that this is not yours, you've incorporated it based on fair use. And if they want to use it, they have to think through their own kind of fair use calculus they can't rely on your license because it's not your thing. So that's the only wrinkle I always want to, I always caution people, you know, as part of their front matter of their work say you know this work is licensed XYZ, but third party material third party material is incorporated under fair use or other licenses as noted right or whatever just to make sure that your reader understands which parts of your work is under the license and which parts are not. Great. So much to think about. So which license license should you use. And so if you want to share in the chat box which license you've published under some of you have already picked the one that you publish under. Many we are advocates prefer CC by which is just that basic attribution license, but why shouldn't you use a more restrictive license like CC by non commercial non derivative. So, let's see Brandon is this a you and do you want to give us a quick explanation of why why someone would want to use that very restrictive license and then why they shouldn't. Yes, this is such an interesting issue. The, you know, the data we have from surveys of authors and academic authors shows that those authors often like to assign, you know if you just sort of ask them if you had to pick a license for your work what might you use without any sort of prompting or education beforehand the inclination gut instinct is to include these limitations, you know they don't like the idea that their work could be used commercially, or translated for example without their consent. And so the limitations are very popular, and they're popular because people are concerned about what other people might do with their work in certain circumstances. However, as I sort of, you know as we see in the kind of short answer there, every one of these limitations is going to shrink your audience and limit what they can do with your work. Right, and you have to think about whether you're okay with that shrinkage, and whether that's really going to help you meet your goals with the work. One of the biggest problems with license limitations, we sort of alluded to this earlier is as easy as easy as Creative Commons licenses in particular are to understand they're still not perfectly transparent. So, in particular non commercial is a term that that's still no one understands, not even lawyers, you know, and so I mean I was literally panicking, you know, googling and dragging up all of the literature about what this non commercial term is, you know, this webinar to try to refresh my memory because it looks intuitive, but after about 30 seconds of thinking about it it just sort of falls apart. And so when you attach that non commercial term to your license, you're going to lose a lot of people who are afraid that if they use this material in any way that touches money, they could get in trouble, and I don't think that's what the license is, but it's not an unreasonable thing for people to worry about. The other thing I often think about is, are you willing to sue people if they do something that's against the license, like do you have the time and money and resources to go and sue someone for copyright infringement, if they create an unauthorized translation of your work. And if the answer to that is no, I'm also inclined that's one of the reasons I prefer CC zero because I know that the best I can do in my life is to force the expectations I have for how my work is used is to name and shame people, right, and to make my own work as free as possible. And that way, anybody who wants my work can find it and they can have it. They can be able to sell it or rip people off with it. And again, you know, if someone does those things, I'm really not in a position to sue them and chase them down anyway so I'm not a huge fan of all the limitations but, but they're popular, and they're there for a reason so you know I don't mean to talk them down too much but that's my that's my take anyway, for what it's worth. Thank you Brandon and so much to think about and the chatbox is full of really great questions and shares. Let's see our next question because we want to make sure we get some time for you all to ask your questions we've had a few submitted. So, if I change your mind can I revoke my license quick answer. Yeah, so, and this I think this this also depends, it depends on it will not really you can't report your license but but why why are you trying to revoke your license right so if you know your work out there that somebody has kind of fudged with and things are a little wonky there is a mechanism for. I think that that attribution portion there's a there's a mechanism for that. But that only is like a mandatory sort of thing in in certain situations and I can provide a link to that too but the best you can really do if you just want to kind of un-CC license something which you can't do is really just stop distributing it right like if you have it hosted somewhere, take it down. But the people who have those copies I mean are still free to do as they will per the terms of the actual license. Great. And I think the more that we're all as people are saying in the chat box in the open world, the more that we start to understand how to appropriately share openly. So our last question for our panelists and from our side and then it will move to you all, are there limits other than attribution in a basic CC by license so if that's the license you choose a CC by which are giving attribution. What are the other limits. So there are a few actually, and they're not very well known but they are very important. And really the most important one I think because it really addresses something that gives so many especially scholarly authors heartburn is that one of the terms even in the CC by license is that users are not permitted to either imply or explicitly state that by taking advantage of the license, the author, they now have an endorsement from the author for their use. Right. And so like the classic fear is like I'm going to publish my scientific article, and some nut job is going to use it misinterpret it and say, you know, as Brandon Butler wrote in his seminal 2021 article. The sky is actually green and, you know, the moon is made of cheese, and they can, they can quote me they can put my entire paper on their website under CC by, and they could even you know I arguably I suppose you can they could misrepresent me but they couldn't say Brandon Butler supports this website right Brandon Butler is now a an endorser of my bananas theory, because here's his whole paper and I've put it on my website right. I didn't imply that either and so that gives folks a good authors can say well you know I'm sorry he's wrong about my work. And it gives it gives authors a way to prevent people from dragging them into, you know, sort of context where they don't want to be. Also when you alter a work even under CC by your expected to make a note that you've altered the work right so CC by permits you to make like a translation for example. And you have to note you know this is a translation from this CC by work, and I did the translation, you know so that way people can understand that, you know the author is not responsible for any mistakes in the translation. For example, so those two things I think are really important for people understand because again, those are kind of the two greatest fears that a lot of authors have that I'm going to be used as an endorser, or that somebody is going to change and people will think I was the one that changed it. And so, no, under the CC by license neither of those things is allowed and if someone does it you can sue them for copyright infringement. That's what you want to do. Thank you so if you'll share any other questions that you all have in the chat box Brandon and Becca are going to give you their best advice that is non legal and non binding but great answers to questions and we're excited to answer some of the questions we've seen in the chat. So one question or comment that I've seen as I'm populating through the chat is addressing the issue of serious budget constraints at libraries, and how we are might help mitigate that challenge of inadequate library resources. Have any thoughts about that Becca. Yeah, I can do that. No, so, and it's really cool. Gosh, yes, there are so many possibilities here and I'm not sure. You've probably all heard about some of the bigger schools dropping their, you know, big package deals and things like that and one bargaining tool that a lot of larger libraries have to is to make deals with publishers right to allow access to the work that they're going to do with faculty publish with those publishers to be released openly so they're there's some negotiation stuff that libraries can do there's also a lot of consortium movement. So, for example, this is kind of a relatively recent one MIT has a new open ebook licensing model to where essentially libraries pay a little subscription just a little bit. It's based on their library size and that money gets libraries access to backlogs of content but also pays for future open publication of ebooks going forward from that press so there are a lot of ways that that libraries are working toward that sort of open model, because for all of us it's just disgusting that information is behind all of these financial barriers. I wanted to make sure that was was addressed and discussed. Another question we're receiving is what about non creative Commons open licenses. Yeah, and I can take that one on. You know, the, the world of licenses and open licenses is actually quite enormous.  You know the nice thing about creative Commons for sort of textual traditional, you know, scholarly type works is that they are easy to understand on the face of them anyway. They're, you know, commonly used easy to abbreviate, they're supported by all of the infrastructure of creative Commons there's a computer readable version and a lawyer readable version of every license right. So and they're developing and sort of revising them over time in ways that make them strong, you know more robust and useful. So that's all good about creative Commons. True there are the world of software in particular has a huge variety of open licenses. And I will confess I am not an expert on open software licenses that is there are more open software licenses than I could probably read, you know, and in a week. And so I don't have a favorite. But I will say I do think it is useful to to look at licenses that are for your kind of content that is creative Commons licenses are for like traditional textual content and are not perfect for software or data for example so data is another great example. So data creates interesting challenges with respect to attribution for example and as does code. When you're mixing together potentially hundreds or thousands of works to create a new work. How do you attribute all those elements right that's that creates a problem called attribution stacking. So in the data world, it's very common to favor open licenses that don't require attribution so CC zero, or there are open database licenses that are specific to data. And that solves that problem that creative Commons licenses could sort of inadvertently create so sorry I can't tell you which software license to use but I can tell you there are lots. And, and it is useful to not always use CC licenses when you're talking about specialized content. So, there's another question about code. And if there are any suggestions regarding putting a license on analysis or experimental code. Is that the one that's happening in the chat right now Marcy is trying to go through. Yeah, probably some of yeah. I think this is related to also what Brandon said to you so there are a couple of things that I would think of when trying to license my own code or software anything like that so one. What is most recognized within the community. So I mean you can always drop CC on something but if there is something that the community is just used to or if, or if something that is going to kind of ingratiate you to the community so I know a lot of software licensing does the whole copy left thing right so it's essentially similar to the whole CC by share alike. So I'm sharing but you got to share to you can't lock this down so those sorts of licenses. So I don't think there's like a one best thing but it's just kind of what you're familiar with what your community uses and what you want to do with what you're licensing. We've got just a couple of minutes. Marcy. Oh no I was going to say another question that came in was about allowing authors to change a license on public content. And is that only if the license, if they move to a more open license, but not a more restrictive one. So the yeah very short answer to that one sure you can always get broader, but you know because you're not revoking the old license you're kind of augmenting it you're saying you can do everything I said before, and also more. And so you can always get bigger but once you've, once you've put an open license out there and you, and especially once someone has relied on it. I can't say never mind you can't do that anymore too late that you offer an acceptance that's a contract.  So that's one and then I want it real quick in the last couple minutes. I've seen the same question come up a couple of times about if an author uses like a non commercial license, couldn't the author still themselves make commercial uses and yes that's the classic open source software business model in a way is you can put out, you know, a version that's free for other people to make non commercial uses.  So yes absolutely just because you've put limitations on what others can do doesn't mean you yourself as the actual copyright holder are subject to any of those limits. Excellent. Well thanks everyone so much. I feel like we could go for another hour with all of these questions coming in it's some, you know, deceptively really rich and really interesting so we really appreciate Joanna and Becca and Brandon and all of your expertise and so thank you so much for sharing. And again, we wanted to encourage you the discussion does not stop here, and the process does not stop here so we hope you will consider making some of your scholarship available. We're sharing something on the open scholarship knowledge base and take this information back to some of your colleagues. And we know that there are a lot of people with questions so we hope that that this can can help other people at your institutions. And of course, be on the lookout for follow up recordings and other frequently asked questions, and we'll be in touch. Thanks for your time.


Welcome to the 13th meeting in 2015 of the Standards, Procedures and Public Appointments Committee, and let me remind everyone as usual to switch off mobile phones as they may affect the broadcasting system. We have received apologies from Patricia Fagerson and Dave Thompson, and I welcome Mark Griffin to the meeting who is substituting for Patricia. The second item of business is for the committee to agree to take agenda item 3 in private, which is an item for us to consider the evidence that we are about to hear from the minister on consolidation bills. Members agree to take this item in private. Agree. Thank you. We are agreed. Agenda item 2 is for the committee to hear from the minister for parliamentary business on consolidation bills. We are joined today by Joe Fitzpatrick, the minister for parliamentary business, Stephen McGregor, head of Parliament and legislation unit, Cabinet, Parliament and Governance division, and Graham Fraser, who might introduce himself since he is not on our list. Graham Fisher is from the legal directorate of the Scottish Government. Thank you very much indeed and welcome all of you to the meeting. Members will recall that the minister wrote to the committee in June this year to ask us to consider the rules on consolidation bills. At our meeting last week, we decided to discuss the letter further with the minister. Minister, do you wish to make any opening remarks? Very briefly, to say that we see this as a, what we are proposing, a very minor change to the rules. It falls on from the changes that have been made to the DPLRC around law commission bills, and we think that it is making the most of the particular expertise, technical expertise, that that committee is developing. Right, colleagues. Let's ask him questions. Perhaps minister, just a sort of basic one, is it envisaged that there will be much in the way of consolidation bills that might be brought forward? Obviously, the consolidation bill that was in the programme for government in terms of bankruptcy consolidation now is absolutely the right time for us to be doing that consolidation. The changes to the policy have been made, so this is purely technical, purely consolidation at the right time. In an ideal world, I think that we would do a lot more consolidation than we managed to achieve. There has been in the entire period of this Parliament just one consolidation bill so far. I think that the time between consolidation bills has been longer than we would have hoped for. In this particular case, we have just, in the last 12 months, legislated on the subject, so there is no substantial suggestion that there would be any risk that there would be a need to change policy as part of the consolidation. Definitely not. It is coming absolutely at the right time for consolidation right after the policy changes. Obviously, by their nature, consolidation bills shouldn't have any major policy changes within them. There can be minor technical suggestions from the Law Commission, but only minor. Thank you. Good morning. I read that we might need to have a separate committee for this. Do you think that that's not necessary as you have a consolidation? What was the reasoning behind that? The original reasoning behind having an ad hoc committee might have been that when obviously I was not a member of the Scottish Parliament, when the original standing orders were drawn up, it might have been that when they looked at the committees that the Parliament had at the time, there might not have been any one committee that had the XRTs across the piece that you could have said that's where it goes. That's changed. DPLRC has, since the Law Commission, and probably prior to that, has become a committee that has developed its technical skills, its expertise in that area in a way that it now is the natural home to look at those technical bills. Right. That committee wasn't formed beforehand, was it then? It was not formed at the beginning of the Parliament. It was a different committee and it wasn't able to take on the Law Commission right bills. It didn't have those roles. It's worth just making the point that the DPLRC, its predecessor, the Subordinate Legislation Committee are actually part of the Scotland Act. Ah, thank you. There are a required committee. Mary. Thank you, convener. Just to very briefly, one of the concerns that's been raised is if the DPLRC hears those bills, the link between the Subject Committee and Consolidation bills will be lost. How do you foresee that being overcome? I think that there's probably a number of ways to overcome that. The DPLRC committee could invite the Subject Committee if they wanted to send a representative. That would most similarly mimic the situation with the ad hoc committee rules that stand there just now. Not certain that's entirely satisfactory. They have one member from the Subcommittee expressing a view. What might be better and perhaps more flexible would be that the DPLRC would invite the Subject Committee to offer a view. The whole committee would be able to look at the bill and say, actually, that is entirely technical or whatever their view is, but we'd allow the whole committee to offer a view and that might be a more flexible way forward. Additionally, any member can attend any committee. If there was a feeling that there was a need for the voice of the Subject Committee to be on DPLRC, that rules already allow for that. One of the things, minister, in looking at the standing order changes that would be necessary to give effect if we were to accept what's before us, we could have the option either to replace the existing provision by a referral to DPLRC or alternatively—I haven't discussed this at this stage, I stress—or alternatively to change the standing orders to create the option for the business bureau to refer it to the DPLRC but to leave the existing provisions in the standing orders so that, on a case-by-case basis, if it were felt that there was a strong need for policy involvement, you could do things in a different way. How would you feel about that? Flexibility is always a useful thing within our standing orders. I can't envisage how you could have a consolidation bill that would have significant policy content because then it wouldn't be a consolidation bill, but I would be relaxed about the committee's review on how you were able to frame the standing orders. When looking at it appeared that providing the option rather than replacing, perhaps addressed some of the concerns when I looked at it that the committee had about replacement and removing. We haven't come to a conclusion on that, so we will need to discuss that. The situation is that the option is not there and the bureau has to create an ad hoc committee that has the difficulty of pulling people together, basically based on the timetables that allow their other committee commitments rather than on expertise that we have within the DPLRC committee. Do any more of our colleagues wish to ask anything? Any further words you wish to say to us? No, thank you very much for taking the time. Well thank you very much minister. I'm sorry to drag you along for the relatively brief, but I think that it's quite important to get some things on the record in what is an important matter of procedure and hopefully we can do some more consolidation in the future. Oh sorry. Just to say, I thought that the most important point you made was that you'd have to pull people together from other committees if you wanted to do an ad hoc committee, which is why this idea is so good, because otherwise people might not be available who had the relevant expertise, is that right? I think that that would be one of the concerns that I would certainly have, is it? Okay, got that, thank you. Right, well on that basis thank you minister and officials for attending, and I now move the committee into private session.