So I will call the order the transportation energy and utilities committee meeting at 510 And we'll go to a motion on the agenda first if a counselor wants to make the The amended motion with the as I would make that motion, but I just want to make sure that Sandy T. Bo knows that the the item that is one that she's gonna be there is The third substantive one and if she has a Request now would be the time to to make it. Otherwise should hold her peace Okay, is Sandy with us on the call or yes Yeah, what what sort of the time frame approximately? For the other couple items. Yeah, I would defer to maybe director Spencer Could you give an estimate on that? These first two substantive items really are It depends on their commission's kind of engagement my hope is that we get through the first two in 40 minutes Can I jump back on in 40 about 35 minutes? Certainly. Yeah, you can leave come back. No problem. Okay. I'd like to do that Maybe just come back and come back in 35. You can see if we're you know for ready yet and Great, thank you Okay, so Yes All right, any discussion Hearing none all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Okay, we have our agenda unanimously I believe the next item would be the minute approving the minutes. Is that right? Yes from our last meeting. Can I hear a motion on that? Move to prove the minutes for a lot or 26 meeting second Any discussion? Hearing none all those in favor, please say aye. I Okay, we have our minutes And then that would move us into our public forum So if there's anyone who's here and wishes to speak now is the time to do that You can speak on anything related to this committee If if you're gonna speak to an item on this agenda will also give you the chance to speak during that time So it's up to you but if anyone wants to speak now, please just Indicate that raise your hand or otherwise indicate that you want to speak and Not seeing anyone is anyone else Okay, all right, perfect, then I will go ahead and Close the public forum and we'll move into our first substantive item I'll turn it to director Spencer to TS off for that. Thank you great we had a number of questions from some counselors and also from members of the public over the last two months around how we prioritized our sidewalk work and Staff has been working diligently over the last two years overhaul our Prioritization process so we thought it was a good opportunity for us to be able to give you an overview and have you weigh in with any feedback that you have We do very much try to value The public input we receive and balance that with of course the technical analysis that we're very excited to have just Done and completed with our city-wide sidewalk assessment. So with that, I think it's Laura and Maddie with the presentation I will share my screen Maddie Sunder, an associate public works engineer with the city of Wellington I will just give this presentation and Laura can add any input as she sees fit So I've already seen this slide at the council and unfortunately the Participants are covering your map Here I can take care of that Or I think you can even make any difference. Yeah, I can So this is the sidewalk work since 2017 You can see 2020 and 21 There are a lot of little dots. This is where we really started to focus on short run work to address safety concerns that we saw and not just long block segments We've been doing the short runs with our DPW in-house crews and then we have a contract with us that we put out to So this slide shows The work that we have for this year as color-coded this to show the major projects We have the Mansfield outside path and red the contracted work and blue the DPW right away work or the short runs and green the roundabout and the university place You can see the contracted long run list here, which Equates to about a mile of work Estee Island will be the contractor doing that this year So this is How this is the sidewalk inventory that we have just completed this year It is a compilation of a barrier score and an activity score So to go into the barrier score is just the rock condition of the sidewalk panel since we lasted this effort in 2014 we adjusted the barriers or factors to better represent the deficiencies that we see in Brallington and get Just a better picture of what deficiencies are present So we included roughness and gapping gapping is that section between sidewalk panels where it sometimes starts to grow From getting chipped by sidewalk clouds or salt or whatever else it could be and then roughness was essentially Those sidewalk panels that we see that the entire surface of it just starts to degrade We didn't have a great way of capturing that previously So that was one improvement from this inventory So you can see in this map it shows the highest priority barrier scores Question is whether yeah, are there there any other characterizations of sidewalk conditions that are somehow outside of These you know you said how you know the gapping or the roughness was an area that you added So clearly before There were conditions that you hadn't captured in the public even though you might have been thinking about it, right? Yeah, so it I thought there's still some issues with sidewalks that are being forced into these categories that You know, it's not great. I'm trying to think of them myself Yes, I'm flying Um We really found that the roughness and the gapping were the two things that we weren't capturing I can't think of any others. The one that is hard to capture is the running slope because we have hills and brown things, so These are all based on a gay factor. Sure. So running slows this along this like going walking with the cycle across slope is The other way so if it's going towards the curb or away, but keep up from a house towards it just Just to quickly add to Councillor Bergman's question a panel that might rock would be difficult to have captured in these categories But it's something that we do know as a significant deficiency that we would work to replace right away The other one that gets measured in a different way is the material that the sidewalk is made up of if it happens to be an asphalt section that we've quickly patched That's recorded in a different way and not scored So those might be the only other really outstanding ones that we are aware of Yeah, they're okay. Thank you. Laura. I know I like you for a lot of reasons and that's Details, you know, it was always great to work with you So The materials How does that get factored in here? I mean we see that all the all the time, right? We see the You know a patch and then it decays and it's crumbled all around where you had patched it mostly on roads but sidewalks sometimes too like on the This the handicap Tactile areas that's in these programs. Yeah So how does That and the and the rocking Get factored in it. Um, so the rocking would fall under the programs Short runs and that would get prioritized Pretty high on the list. I usually those are reported by cyclic fixes our own sidewalk Tractors Would send those in they're they're fairly rare Usually a panel will crack in its entirety first And then that gets measured under the scores that you see here As it relates to the material that a sidewalk is made up This inventory is entirely within gis and matty has the ability to sort By that as a as a criteria Thank you So moving forward we just have a close up Realizing that that graphic is a bit hard to see Two sections of the city to kind of show where we have bad barrier sections Remembering that yellow is where it is the highest percentage of barriers and this darker purpley blue is where it has the lowest percentage of Barrier scores So this this is pictures from the inventory so one huge Part of this inventory was they took pictures Every 10 feet of every sidewalk panel in railington. So now we have a great snapshot of time And a great tool to kind of Help that whereas previously I would have to find time to go out and drive around the city and look at all these concerns Now when somebody calls me I can easily pull this up And it has been hugely helpful. Um, so these this is how we've grouped the inventory It's a good satisfactory for and serious barrier scores And just to correlate that with the uh slide above Yeah, if you if you scan back up to that hard to read map Could you yeah, you'll see on the right it says barrier score. Yeah there Are you just linking like the 30 and the 35 together to be the? The serious and then the 40 to the 40 half ounce. Is there a correlation between the So the characterization separate numbers This map is just pulling separate from that good fair serious board This is every the actual score. So it's this is more minute. We didn't aggregate this by just good serious bailing One one question for those in the room it looks like Jack Hansen fell back over into the attendees list And I think only maddie or the tv our hosts and could move him back I can do that, but i'm gonna have to stop sharing Um, also while we're waiting for maddie to bring her screen back up council bergman. Uh, there was a there was a slide in one of our previous Presentations, I think may to be it was an internal presentation that we did But it's a it's a graph that shows where those barriers scores fall and maddie had kind of outlined where that serious good fair poor Categories landed so you can kind of get a better tally as to how many miles Uh and what that distribution is throughout the the scoring So we could make that available to you That would be great. That's the correlation between the the numbers that you come up with on the score factors and These categories the That would be helpful Okay Okay, so now moving on to the equity and activity score So this is the other piece of this inventory that we loved to revamp and adjust to the city's current goals So you can see in red. This is everywhere Where we added to this inventory. Um, so we pulled High minority population high low income and high no household vehicles. Those are from census data so we have the ability to update that as Census data is released. Um, so we can keep that current. We also added a downtown district map to give the downtown core score for pedestrian generators And then mobility challenges for age and narrow diverse populations So the goal of this is to attach the usage to the sidewalk and kind of allow Score sidewalks to get boosted if they're being used a lot and Based on the demographic of the users On that sidewalk So this map again shows where the most activated areas of the city are in yellow and then the stark purple Shows Be not so activated areas So this is essentially the model for this whole Inventory. Um, this is how we are actually processing this data to pull out a work plan. So this is an example of A long run which would be an entire block of core sidewalk versus a short run where you can see there's Three or four panels that are bad, but the sidewalk on either side is fine. We wouldn't need to replace that So we've split this up into Two categories blocks and segments and then within those there's two groups each for a total of four groups. So first we have The long run list get created. So we have a goal of three miles of sidewalk each year So this tool will spit out a work plan of approximately three miles So the first Long run list that it creates uses half a mile of just the worst barrier scores and doesn't factor in any activity or equity So that's just making sure that we're getting the worst block of sidewalk regardless of where it is to make sure that we're addressing the true safety concerns Then the next mile and a half Uses the highest barrier score and the highest equity activity score And this removes the bottom of 50 percent of barrier scores So that's the best 50 percent of sidewalks. So even if the sidewalk is right in the downtown floor Next to a bunch of fashion generators If it's in good enough shape, we'll never that will never jump the list Just because it has a really high activity score. So it has to be barrier score qualities first to have Bad enough condition in the first place then the activity helps us kind of Let some things jump the list if we know that they are getting activated a lot So then that removes the worst mile and a half Sorry two miles of sidewalk that we can use for a contractor long run And then you move on to short run sidewalk. So again, it goes into the worst Barrier score short runs half a mile And then half a mile of the total score, which would be the worst barrier score and the highest activity score so I don't know if you have any questions on that. That's kind of a lot, but I think the Graphic here if you really read through it Explains it quite well Yeah, I think Maddie Let me just add for the kind of the cliff's note summation This type of scoring and raking and sorting is really important because as she mentioned There are sidewalks in the downtown that are so highly activated That sometimes brand new sidewalks come to the top of our list because they have such a high activity score And so much use and so we're trying to make sure With these equations and these sorting tools that those don't show up as work plans are part of our work plan Additionally, we were in our last inventory Missing the sidewalks that are further out in town that don't see a lot of pedestrian generators But are in really poor condition And I I want to go on record. We pulled these images from Some of our previous inventory. I don't think that we have sidewalk anywhere in the city That looks like the image on the right here, but we did before the sustainable infrastructure program So moving forward this is So I I I've been yeah, so I If you have any questions, I do but I was going to wait I would just want to hear the presentation. I've been making questions I do would you rather have us bring questions out as you present or would you rather we hold our questions so they I think it's fine. Do you want to ask questions now? I don't want to get lost and then keep going Not if there's questions that we can answer ahead Okay, so then I'll ask the couple then Um I'll just start from the beginning this so the barrier blocks you presented in the first slide the slides three and four. Um, so they're sort they're sort of Larger areas. I you know when as I walk sidewalks, there's like there might be a nice stretch of sidewalk and then there's a really Bad condition and a very short segment maybe even a couple of blocks or maybe from heaving it may be from where they Sort of collapse and there's puddling that happens there and I sent you a picture of a sidewalk walk Um around the corner from me that's been like that since 2001 Because that's when I moved to the neighborhood. I first noticed that and I walked back for years and years and years and until we started this intensive sidewalk discussion And you brought my sort of focus on the sidewalks. I haven't really considered it but it's clearly in the serious category and I just think that This is this is this scoring is really you know essential to trying to to do the work of sidewalk replacement, but there's There's this other aspect of sidewalk maintenance that I that I wanted to talk more about maybe because this Presentation goes on and that's like if there are real bad spots and it may only be a block or two And how do we a sidewalk block and a four by four square that needs to be addressed and how do we go about that? So Yeah, so this this graphic is just to get like just to aggregate all of this This isn't we have a block by panel by panel sidewalk panel by panel And like data so this is just an aggregated to the census block level. Okay. This is illustrative Why don't you go to the short runs and long runs just to recap that? Further yeah right here. So the the short runs are a hundred feet or less So we are getting to those issues those hot spots in group three and four Okay, if we don't think we're getting to one that is urgent then report that to us and we can confirm the model and the assessment is Something hasn't subsequently changed any of my other questions around the assessment um And I think that it's what we could and we should uh enlist That the citizens and I know that this is this is awesome this this um this slide right here And I think that if people saw that they could report things and do it in a way that was helpful to Uh getting the repairs uh quantified in a in a way that you could score them um So that so I think we need to enlist more people to look at the sidewalks that they know and walk every day To do this because i'm wondering about if the assessment It gets things in aggregate, but if there are real hot spots that are problematic either in winter or You know because there's elderly folks that live there that have are people that are mobility challenged They need to get fixed and I think we can I think You all are doing an awesome job at this, but I think that we can we can even get better at it The other thing I just wanted to say really quickly was the the how do you assess Uh, how do you do the activity scores? How do you know how much a sidewalk is used? Is it just based on So we use things such as like all of these are city or transit stops approximately the schools parks um city attractions pedestrian generator senior centers all of these things we put them on a map and then Did this all in gis so we can pull like okay This is a radius around every school a radius around every trend or we had to aggregate the transit stops a bit So we heard the gmq to get the most used transit stops But the same thing for parks um the downtown district all the campuses schools, so we had all of that in gs and then put buffers around that so we can Use that to see how many Like what every sidewalk kind of overlapped a buffer of that generator that makes sense and then for the um the final three the Things that we pulled from the census data that was given to us you can get the census data by block groups, so that's a That's just the only way you can get that census data. So it's a bit of a bigger group. These are all in block groups here But we have rows in there as well. So every sidewalk within that block group got an extra score for Whatever criteria they got for any of the census data. Okay. Thank you. So that would be uh slide eight for example I think your side You're going to get there and yeah, I you haven't gotten there. So I'm not going to jump there yet. Um, are you done? Thank you um So, uh the long run You've got it broken You've got a half mile and then one and a half miles. Now. Is that just this year's or is that sort of the um The template or Or what? We've been aiming for three miles since the sustainable infrastructure. Okay. So there is the template and um Why those proportions? That was just kind of Yeah, I can I can speak to that a little bit so you know our past approach had been the three miles And after doing a few years of repairing Long runs for the most part, you know, we Started to and I would imagine our council base also started to hear a little bit, you know, more concerns about Missing those short runs. Uh, the one like the one that council borough brought up Board one eight were very active and and engaging us on this. Um, they had a lot of short runs that needed work and so We recognize that You know, our inventory has an eight-ish year lifespan and Any sort of aggressive growing tree can actually push a panel to a point that it would fall into the serious category in that in that timeframe, so being able to have An output on an annual basis to identify where we should bring our short runs That is ranked and prioritized similar to our long runs is innovative Um for this this type of work and output our previous inventory didn't spit out the short runs for us It could only do the long runs. And so now we're getting a work plan for that work type, which is what our crews were doing anyway um, that follows the The process that we're using for the rest of the work I'm actually inclined to look at The short runs as being A higher priority And it's not clear to me How long a long run is I look up at the streets on the long run list And let's see 1600. Is that a quarter of a mile? 1600 feet or is that no? That's not a lot Like 5,000 feet. That's right. So so that's about a quarter of a mile Um So I Yeah, I'm just maybe we can uh, I'd like to table that question and handle that one at the end with the bigger picture But I'll write that one down. How do you want to just to be Just to finish that up my my sense is that the The short runs Have a very high priority at this On a slight seven seems not to be Showing that or not reflecting that and I'm not sure in terms of the Equality of the short run two groups between the The groups three and four as to whether they should be equal Or whether we should be really trying to look at the The activity at a higher level where people are doing it knowing full well that you know, we want to not let even the outliers deteriorate to the point of Whatever the Syria it gets serious is the worst. So Yeah, happy to Sorry to jump in maybe we can I think it's Let's try to get through the rest of the presentation if there's any just Questions clear clarifying questions. Let's do those but maybe the Comments and the in the bigger picture stuff. Maybe let's save for the end Because I want to I want to also open when we do finish the presentation. I want to give Anyone from the public a chance to talk but also we do have a couple other large items. So Sorry Okay So this goes through how this tool like what this tool interface actually looks like So it's a web-based tool. The first step is entering in the scoring which we have come up with Scores that some of them are the same. Some of them we tweaked from the last inventory And for those that we added new criteria for So we adjusted this a bit and we have the ability to adjust it in the future, but this is the plan for Our template and if we find this isn't working more as we use this tool, you know five years from now if we see that we Need to adjust it a bit. We have that option So then it spits out the priorities of all the long runs So again yellow is the highest priority and then as it gets to the darker purple blue That is the lower priority Long run. So this is the Average score over that block So every segment gets scored that's aggregated into the average for that block So this is still done on a panel by panel Basis and then that's just pulled together And then we move to the short run list. So this is just 10 foot segments. So these every dot is 10 feet so two panels of sidewalk So as Laura mentioned or I think chicken mentioned We can do up to 100 feet for a short run And We have to factor in a few other things as you're doing short runs to make it Feasible for our right away crews to be out there and mobilize. They have to do at least 50 feet. So Even if there's two panels that are bad We may have to find two panels on the other side of the street or you know Down the block a little bit to make it worth their while to actually go there and mobilize So that goes into the next step, which is staff review The qaqc of the inventory site visits considering all the reports we get from residents from calls emails Walk-ins Coordination is a big piece Private or city funded since the short runs touch so much of the city and they are quickly They come and go very quickly. It's the crews mobilize and are done within a week or two So there are a lot of moving pieces and a lot of private and city development going on that we need to work around As well and then the next step is just the logistics the budget construction constructability and efficiency. So efficiency is just what I was mentioning about the 50 feet Needing to get through that buffer to make it economically feasible for us As well as the budget and the amount of money that we're given 40 years to be able to Do the work So this is the picture of the work that is underway. This is on Murray and Champaign street. They're Almost done here and they have since moved to uh, right behind the city market downtown Doing two stretches there. These were all pulled from the short run inventory Unfortunately, I didn't have any before pictures to show but Brandy's sidewalk is better. So And then the last piece of this tool is the new sidewalk. So this is a prior authorization of all of the Sidewalks that are missing in the city. So if there's only sidewalk on one side of the street or if there's no sidewalk at all We use the activity and equity score to help prioritize that as well as qaqc and We also consider if there is sidewalk on one side of the street Versus not at all. These are funded through state and federal grants. So we have A few past projects listed here and then some current farms The lake street shared use path is in design and the interrail road shared use path. It's also in design Not for this year construction So that is everything from the presentation or do you have any Comments to add Just to add on to a few of the questions One of the last slides that maddie showed had the word constructability in there for our considerations that we do at a staff level And what that speaks to is um, you know, one of the streets that spit out this year was poplar Poplar has a four foot or less wide sidewalk that is composed of brick Another one that comes to the top of our list often is Sherman Street, which again is has some pretty big significant ADA deficiencies These are not candidates that fit inside of our maintenance budget estimate, which is where The requests to the bond went these require a little bit more engineering potentially survey Could be land rights could be other more significant factors. And so this is where um, you know, one of the requests that came from this Committee was can we just spit out a list of all these sidewalks and let people know where they fall on the list?  They become a capital project We have their condition. We have them Scored but they need a little bit more and they need a different funding to help elevate them to what they're going to need to become Um Accessible and renewed so that's where the word constructability speaks to Um, counselor Barlow asked about how does the public get involved? And that's a great question our previous inventory struggled to be forward facing out to the public to be able to provide something And so I recognize that the block grouping of the maps for the barrier scores does Combine a lot of detail that we can see as staff In what the inventory collected, but it's really difficult to put that back out forward facing And so we're we're trying a few templates. Our consultant is still working on helping us with that There are points where we do want feedback. Um, those boundaries around our activity scores, you know, are we capturing the right Net as it relates to like a different schools for walkability We've done what we know as staff from working in the city over numerous years But that's where we're going to want some feedback That's where we want our public to gut check this work so that it is working for them So that is still in the mix. Um before we really finalize that And then lastly to speak to uh council bergman's long run question. Um, you know maddie started to hint to it But really it's about some efficiencies in the contracting of the work I agree. I'd love to get to more areas of the city and do a little bit more work in more places But there is especially this season. There is a lot of efficiency in keeping a contractor On one site set up and doing a little bit more complete work Then hitting the peaks of every worst pieces of sidewalk I think that answers the questions I heard Great. Thank you. So I want to give An opportunity for the public as well. Um, looks like there's just one person looking to speak Cynthia vermont, which I believe is cindy cook. Thanks for joining cindy and the floor is yours Am I unmuted this you're good. We can hear you. Yeah zoom format that I'm used to Yeah, so apologies. I've got a lot going on with family medical stuff So I'm going to be disjointed but I have a few things I want to comment on First off is I would love for this process to be more transparent and clear in terms of how dpw is Doing these rankings and where different Areas play out because we can't comment on things like The activity equity score unless we know what our score is visa the others In my I live on east avenue. There are a number of Residents that are just off of east avenue that are very much affected by the east avenue arterial sidewalk There are several major Parking areas for the u of u medical center. I don't know if those are included but that that leads to huge amounts of traffic on east avenue and Again, I don't know how we used to have Relates to others in terms of scoring But I think that level of use ought to be really high in your ranking system because you want to get the most Effect and and protect the most people with what you do and I agree with councillor Bergman that That focusing on short runs, whereas it might not be quite as financially Efficient will be more efficient in terms of public safety than doing long runs. So, you know The measure should I don't Think should be on How many miles of sidewalk you do but on how much you How many hazards you reduce? the wards one and eight npa have been pushing on this this topic for a number of years now that we Really asking dpw to focus on the major trip and hazard areas the major icing and ponding areas Rather than doing runs. So you can say we did so many miles Let's focus on Having the most public benefit, which means focusing on the the really really gnarly areas So, let's see Ponding and icing are huge on east avenue and they are probably are in other areas We have segments that are two or three Squares wide along that pond and then ice to the point where my elderly neighbors and co-housing Walk in the road rather than on the sidewalk because it's safer and that's crazy We really need to figure out how to address those kinds of issues. So we don't we're wanting to encourage people to walk and People can't walk on this major arterial sidewalk because of the the icing and ponding So but I've got to come back to the Transparency that we really you've listed a bunch of factors, but it's it's not clear how How they relate and what it is you focus on most and my my hope is that you focus on safety and an accessibility My neighbor can't Take her wheelchair on the sidewalk to my house because it's so so bumpy That's that's a problem. We and it's it's a liability issue for the city so I'd really ask that you Let the public know how you're doing the scoring So that so that we can comment and related to that the the maps that you show are really difficult for members of the public to interpret it'd be really nice to have some some Reference points so we can tell where the the segments are that you're looking at Are in that very small map that you you guys do so those are my comments I really appreciate that you're working hard on the sidewalks It's it's great and I really ask that you focus on the areas that are of most significant public safety and are the most heavily used and I think east avenue qualifies in both those regards and don't understand how some some Smaller residential areas rise to the top Whereas major arterials don't so that those are my comments. Sorry for being so long winded Great. Thank you, Cindy So we are approaching an hour on this item Um Do counselors Before I just dive into them. Do counselors have other questions and comments that you wanted to share? You have something I do. Yeah, but can I just hear a yes or no from each of you? Do you have more to ask or share? I have a short clarifying question Okay, how about you counselor bergman? Uh, I I'm okay. I guess I could suggest that we continue to be talking about this in the future. So Okay Okay, okay. Um counselor barlow go ahead. Thank you. Um, my question was around the 50 foot minimum for short run construction Um, and how if you have a single panel or a couple of panels that he replacing What's the approximate area? that You would need to look at in order to make that 50 foot minimum viable. Could you was it within a block or? I mean, it's hard in the new north end and there's blocks that are super long but um within walking distance like It's enough that our crews could you know be Efficient with doing working two places not that far away from each other two or three places A traditional block not a new north end. That makes sense But I think that seems to be as you described it one of the limiting factors for some of the more Um, you know the addressing some of the safety concerns on the really short runs where it may just be a block or two So that would that help me to understand more about how things are getting prioritized. So thank you Um, if I can just add quickly to that I don't think it's that we're skipping the really really bad ones that rise to the top of the list I think what is helpful to understand is that we are composing a work plan around that area That might pick ones that are in the poor category instead of the serious category So there's still important sections To get to but it's one of the reasons and it's a question that's been asked previously Why won't we just eradicate the three miles of serious sidewalk that we presented to you tonight? and it's because Of this composition of efficient work plans around some of the really serious areas Um, but but we're taking work from the other category to make that a spot that we go to Thank you. That's all ahead That's your answer. Okay. Great. Thanks. Um, yeah, I'll throw out maybe a couple questions and if They don't have to necessarily be answered now. I'll let you decide Laura and team What you want to answer now versus we can follow up by email or at the next meeting. Um But I think it's so yeah a few questions sort of on the transparency and then a couple bigger questions So and I think this gets at Cindy's point to some extent. Is there a way to Request what the score is for a given street. Um, I understand the challenges with distributing All the scores of all the streets. I think it makes sense that you all don't Don't do that. But um, if someone wanted to request a specific street, um Would you be able to share the score with them? Um, and or I'll just throw out all my questions. Um Yeah, like, you know, these questions about east av or other streets that people have Is there a way to give them some sense of Why that street didn't make it? I think one thing I'll throw out maybe as a suggestion It is in addition to showing all these criterias is maybe showing a side by side of just picking two streets and saying This one has this score. This one has that score Here are the different factors just to make it a little more real for people and so they can understand. Um How it actually plays out in the real world a little bit better. Um So to see kind of two side by side streets, maybe like The last one that made the cut off and the first one that didn't make the cut out, you know Something like that that would be really telling and helpful for people to see how this works. Um in the real world and I think My other question is another question is how the foot traffic is calculated. Um What what method is used to calculate that and then My big picture questions are just around process if the council Wanted to adjust these criteria. Would would that be through? Um, Not that I am intending to but I'm just curious would that be done through a resolution or what might that look like if We wanted to look at changing these So those are my questions. I don't need answers now, but if you have If you want to answer any of them now or maybe we can follow up later on I think if I can speak just quickly to kind of a few that might touch on it. Um Um essentially we were we were getting ready to Try to put a draft forward facing out on the web So that we could allow, um, you know to be able to go back to award one eight who are very interested in helping us with this tool Um, and anybody else who is just generally interested again You know as I said before it wasn't able to be forward facing before but we are working on which parts we do Want to be able to put out there so that we can get more of that feedback Um, you had some great suggestions about like a comparison tool Um, I think that it's possible to give out a score for an individual street But it's only going to be meaningful with that graph that I mentioned about councillor Bergman So that you know where it falls in the whole world of the city Um, but those are are great things, you know that I don't see from our side because we have way too much data to look at But how much is appropriate to show outwards and as it relates to considering different criteria Um, I don't think it has to be as formal as a council action You know, you guys are you guys are all counselors We take feedback from everybody from any member of our community if there's something that we're doing wrong We want to hear about that. Um, I don't think it has to be very formal Our sidewalk program policy is only um a policy or a guideline As it exists currently so it's uh, it is easy enough to change We do bring it forward and don't change it on the fly without uh, at least going through the dpw commission. So Uh, but that document which we'll explain a lot which I think, uh, Cindy spoke to Is also part of what we'll go up with the inventory Great, okay. I think that I think that answers everything. So no need to No need to follow up. But if I have any others, I'll I'll reach out. Um Yeah, and I guess yeah, my only suggestion would just be giving an example um Just one example and and choosing maybe choosing a street like east av where Many people might think it was a no-brainer But just showing okay, here's why it didn't make the cut because If you look at the average streets that made it in this was their score and this was east av or whatever It may be just to kind of show how How how this plays out and why it's not always As people might expect it to be um I think could be could be helpful Councilor handsome when you weren't finished I would I'm all set go ahead um, so I I think that we should continue this conversation And I'm just look I've been just sort of browsing through dpw's Uh website and try to find, you know, like this is an on there Nobody, you know can see it at least that I can find in the really quick time that I did that And so I'm wondering if You know knowing the full Hattoply of work you've got so we're nothing we do now Or you know is going to change the work schedule that you've got so we've got you there is some time to work but to to have a report back about transparency And the improvements that are being made the improvements that are being contemplated Um, maybe some examples that we can look at. Um, maybe it's just by going on to your website going here Um, this is where we can find the find the material. This is to make it easier. This is how you can compare Sections this is where the matrices are laid out that kind of Um work so that we can um Give meaningful advice in terms of improving this. Um and give Meaningful feedback in terms of whether the uh the priorities are being Done in the way that at least the three counselors on this committee believe that they should be or they should be adjusted So, you know, just coming back to that with the standpoint of Uh the transparency Review Since you're talking about doing that anyway, it seems totally within the work that you're doing Yeah, where to like be in august or september or something like that that would I think Be fine. Even maybe even october Is a is a reasonable time frame for my standpoint Yeah, let's let's aim for september that way if there are changes that you guys want it's before we're developing our work plan for the next season Okay, that sounds great. Um, so we can tentatively Pencil and revisiting this at our september to commuting Um, and happy to talk continue the discussion offline as well. Um Thank you. Yeah, thank you both so much. Um for that and Thanks everyone for engaging Um, we do have people waiting on other items. So I'm gonna keep us moving. So I will go ahead and Close that item out And we'll go to the queen city park road and austin drive scoping. I'll turn it over to elizabeth Thanks jack. Um, so Hi, my name is elizabeth bross. I'm the transportation planner with city of burlington department of public works I Actually hopped on this project just in the last couple of weeks with nicole losh's departure Um, so hoping to see it through across the finish line But due to the fact that I joined soley in the project I'm actually going to hand it off to christine board at the ccrpc Which was um, you know the actual leader of this project. So Um, she she will actually introduce us Um, thank you. Elizabeth. Do you hear me? Okay? Okay, awesome. Um, my name is christine for it. I'm a transportation planner with chitlin county regional planning commission Just to give you the background this project was a joint application to ccrpc between burlington and south burlington It extends it along queen city park road from route seven Down around across the one lane bridge Continuing along queen city park road austin drive over to oak ledge park and It was funded with transportation planning dollars from ccrpc and So we hired Tool design to do this work. There was this an advisory committee of representatives of citizens as well as counselors from south burlington and burlington We started around in the fall in august. Um, there was a public process A lengthy study and we're just going to go over this evening What was recommended by the steering committee. We also had the walk bike Committee in burlington and the south burlington bike ped committee involved with this study And we're going to show you the alternative that those groups recommended and if you are comfortable with it You can endorse the preferred alternative and ask questions and whatever you desire So i'm going to introduce lucy gibson from tool design and she's just going to go through a brief presentation giving you The background and outline of this study So lucy you can go ahead Um, I have a power point set up. I will try to go through it really quickly And focus a little bit on the process and then recommendations at the end So what I would say is interrupt me if you have a question that you want to know more about but just knowing you have a lot more beyond this to talk about I will I'll try my best to Move through quickly and I've got the There we go. All right, can folks see my screen here? Yes, so I will um again like I said go quickly. Here's the overview of the study area Which basically spans from south burlington into burlington here shelburn road here home avenue austin drive queen city park Road making a big loop through here And the general idea of the project is to connect the south burlington path network, which is at the end You can access at the end of lindenwood drive With the burlington bike path up in the north west corner here and also with red rocks park um the This is the team that guided the project We had christine coordinating both cities and then people from burlington and south burlington And then we had a group of us from tool design group and I have more than listed here But we have a group of engineers planners and landscape architects Helping with the project. We had an advisory committee. I won't read all the names But it had people from both cities from bicycle pedestrian groups city councils and other stakeholders and representatives of the area And project goals First of all is just safe movement for people about what traveling by all modes of travel through the study area and then secondly, but equally To fill the gap in the regional bike network that would connect the paths in south burlington with The paths in burlington Particularly along the lake, but also the champlain parkway path and also get access to red rocks park Our process we did a site analysis and observations and understood the conditions of the area We had community Feedback collected through an online map. I'll show the results of that in a minute We developed alternatives and looked at the costs and benefits and impact And then we have a final report, which I believe you have access to a copy, but um, it's a Lengthy report in a big study area. So I'm not sure you've read it, but it Um, you know documents the process and recommends the alternative that we came up with Here's a some sampling comments from the interactive map. We did we got lots of comments hundreds um from and quite a few different people the Key areas people really focused on were the intersection here at shelburn road At the one lane bridge and the intersection of home avenue kind of rose to the top But really there were a lot of comments and concerns throughout the study area Which were really helpful for us to understand as we developed our recommendations One of the goals that we want to keep in mind is that we Are looking at designing or accommodating bikes of all user profiles, not just the highly confident So really looking at some separation and low stress connections throughout the study area This is a level of stress analysis of the existing conditions and We have you know, the dark green are where we have shared use paths a little piece of one here in south Burlington the Champlain Parkway path and then the Burlington bike path And then the sections along the street have varying levels of stress between two and three Depending on traffic volume and what kind of accommodations there are And um, these are all the different types of Bike facilities that are both in the area and that we looked at among the alternatives And I'll skip over some of these This study area is big and complex. So we broke it into five segments based on Pieces that would be could could potentially be done independently and really had some unique conditions in each So one through five starting with one over by Sheldon Road in south Burlington Going through starting again from south Burlington currently there is a Riders who don't want to ride on Sheldon Road ride on a sidewalk to get to the crossing to get to the um get into wards Burlington and As I said, there's an existing shared use path but very narrow not in great condition Our recommendations here is basically to Widen sidewalk along route seven and there is now a crosswalk on this side of the intersection Which just was done by v-trans this year and then connect to the path which would be widened and repaved Um, and then this is just a view from the sidewalk level that actually the work can be done It appears within the state right of way, which is um helpful And then widening the path heading down the hill So segment two is the first section of Queen City Park Road, which goes from the Hannaford's Entrance to the crossing where the Champlain Parkway path can be accessed right by Pine Street There's currently a sidewalk along the whole route But there this is the access to Champlain Parkway path. There is no Crosswalk now, and I'm not sure any plans at this point for that to be included in the Champlain Parkway project um We looked at the cross sections throughout the um the section existing conditions where sidewalk with about a 30 foot wide um roadway And two options that we looked at again to get the low stress riding Which wouldn't really be achieved with just conventional bike lanes would be Widening the sidewalk in towards the road with a to about 10 feet for shared use path and there is room to do that Resulting in 12 foot lanes on Queen City Park Road Another option was to widen the road out on the other direction to provide two-way separated bike lanes And um, this you know expands the footprint of the road basically So here's some aerial views. We had a TCRPC was able to do drone footage But what it provides is an idea of the utilities and some of the other issues and then the other option Widenes through up to the north side. This is a view looking west towards the lake Here's the intersection of Pine Street the Champlain Parkway and then the idea is the path would stay on the south side of the road where it could be basically outside the utilities but In the frontage of the Champlain Water District and again provide a crossing to the path And then the other option that we looked at again was having bike lanes on the north side that would be able to access the path We'd still want a crosswalk for pedestrians walking on the sidewalk So we looked I won't go into detail, but we did look at the utility impacts and costs of each option for each segment. So I'll summarize that at the end Moving down through Segment three is a little more challenging where we have the sidewalk for part of it But it ends and then there's the one lane bridge over the railroad that was one of the top areas of comments Just some aerial views and then this is the study that was done for the bridge I think about 10 years ago possibly that Proposed a two-lane bridge to replace that bridge and sidewalk Presumably whatever alternative that comes up with here because this has not been funded or designed yet could be kind of blended in with the bridge replacement And then moving up to Central Avenue, this is a challenging intersection sorry about the quality of the photo, but Right now there is um two stop bars for Queen City Park Road Which is north is going to the right here and Queen City Park towards the industrial area is to the upper part of the screen. There's a gravel path that provides walking access to Central Avenue And um two stop bars, but no stopping for the Queen City Park traffic So basically the alternatives that we look at would be Bring the shared use path here. You'd have protected crossings in each Of each approach and then at this point we change the path to the north side of Queen City Park Road not partly for both utilities and providing access to You know the destinations on this side of the road And that's the sidewalk option with bike lanes And again another Cost analysis so utility impacts are you know different for each option So and what we would the one lane bridge will probably be on a different project scheduled and potentially a pathway But we could really start one and then get the other to fit in with what is done segment four is and segment that serves the industrial area and there's really no sidewalks at all except for a little piece of one at the green mountain transit facility It shown in the blue dot here There are advisory lanes throughout the section to provide some space for walking or biking There are definitely concerns from the community that those are Not really adequate for people to feel safe and comfortable especially in winter where there's snow banks and And the amount of heavy traffic large both a lot of bus traffic that uses this Frequently from green mountain transit and then trucks going to the industrial area so I will skip over to this slide. This is one of the drone of Photos which shows some of the issues in the area. This is looking north Burton site is on the right here and then rhino foods and green mountain transit And edlin company are on the left here and there's utilities on the left side and there's also significant drainage swales on the left side that and the road is currently profile to drain towards from east to west so we really Immediately recognize that doing anything on this side of this road was going to be really challenging and we really looked at having Any sidewalks or shared use path on the east east side on the Burton frontage so basically the um and Burton is going through a process of looking at redeveloping their site And doing a lot more storm water drainage So the alignment of a new path would be basically along the edge of the road But it would fit in within the right of way and not conflict with their plans This is just a view going further north. So here we're at the end of queen city park road and home avenue and austin driver up here So the path at this point could be more separated from the side of the road and Burton Express their willingness to accommodate this and it would just be nice to allow more space between more of a buffer between biking and walking and the traffic And uh, these are what the cross sections look like the existing is um varies in width, but an average typical of 25 feet. So the one option would be to provide a 10 to 12 foot shared use path on the in the east side along Burton frontage Or the other option would be to both build a sidewalk and then widen The street for bike lanes as well to provide separation between people walking and biking and when we looked at the cost the shared use path actually costs quite a bit less than doing the Sidewalk plus the bike lanes. So that's at the consideration And then finally this last segment is austin drive from the home avenue to oakledge park Which currently has conventional bike lanes a sidewalk the whole way and then becomes shared bikes bike sharing with traffic with on street parking Once we round the corner at the redstone condos And I just want to show this this is a excerpt from the champlain parkway plans This is what they have industrial parkway is now called queen city park road home avenue and austin drive here And there will be a shared use path It's either eight or 10 feet wide extending from the existing champlain parkway path Over to the industrial avenue. So that makes a nice connection for anything Happening on either queen city park or austin drive And then here's a view of austin drive again. We have utilities. We have an existing sidewalk The utilities tend to cross back and forth across the road. So they're not Consistently on one side or the other. It does have a wider right of way. So we are able to contemplate in this case widening the sidewalk to a 10 foot shared use path without needing to go outside of the right of way And for the most part having a Having a path along here can avoid utility poles because of the extra room in the right of way And then other options we looked at were widening the street on either side to provide fully separated bike lanes And then here's one of the areas a lot of concern was the red rocks condo entrance where Traffic tends to move straight in and out from this intersection and not yield to Traffic staying on austin drive And I think there's already planned somewhat a foot to Tighten up the corner here and then if this was converted to a wide into a bike path Ideally you'd want to have a more gradual Turn around the corner rather than a sharp turn the sidewalk And again here are cross sections that we've been looking at to assess the impacts and costs and The existing is the sidewalk with about 30 feet wide which varies from having bike lanes or parking with two travel lanes and the One option of widening to 10 feet shared use path Does fit in the right of way and it does allow the parking That currently exists to remain in place The other option we looked at is keeping the sidewalk and widening the street to provide the separated bike lanes That would not allow parking to be preserved on that section of austin drive So Again, we looked at costs so that here's a summary of what the total cost for all five segments are and basically the shared use path comes out to be overall lower cost not necessarily in every segment but um overall it is and The feeling of the committee and as we looked at it was that having a consistent shared use path throughout the project was going to be a preferable design to be welcoming to people and easy to navigate and And the amount of pedestrian traffic on the sidewalks currently doesn't Lead to any concern about people biking and walking having to share the facility So that's where we ended up with the group. Um, I love your thoughts or questions on that now I think this just summarizes the points I made the other Consideration I didn't mention but winter maintenance on a shared use path would generally be easier than maintaining both the sidewalk and then the separated bike lanes and that includes both winter maintenance and an annual maintenance of replacing paint and flex posts and that kind of thing um I won't read all of this, but we didn't prioritize the segment specifically But we did in the report provide some discussion on things to consider with the prioritization in general the segment five along austin was probably the lowest priority given the lower traffic and it has a nice sidewalk and it's A little easier for the wide range of riders to be riding on it today But really there's you know reasons for any of the other segments to kind of have an elevated priority And then we did come up with a few short term recommendations which include this is actually in south burlington, but sort of tightening up the Uh intersection with the hanaford's driveway that a lot of people found difficult to navigate And then a few of the intersections we suggested considering Converting it to an all-way stop like at pine street and queen city park road and central avenue and queen city park road That would make it a little safer and more easier for people to navigate And so our next steps we have a draft report out for a final review Would certainly like your comments and any others that come in And uh, it'll be presented to the city councils of both cities. I believe in june they're scheduled and The project is eligible now for funding through v trans gants, and I believe the city of rollington at least is considering The grant application And that's all I have for slides. I'm happy to Pull anything back up if people have questions or keep it open if people have questions. I can jump back to anything Great. Thank you so much councillors any questions Go ahead So the first thing that's around the bridge is that part of the capital plan? Yes I'm still here. I could speak to that if you want Yeah um So where if it's in the capital bond is that it's a bridge? If the expansion or replacement happens, we are looking for federal funding on it It's helpful. Thank you lucy for bringing that back up. But the burlington south burlington line Is that blue line right there? And so it is entirely owned by the city of burlington We do have some repairs that need to happen this year that appeared in our capital plan, but the expansion we are pursuing federal funding for Is my second question. Thank you. And my second question is around the existing bike path That that exists between the home avenue and bc park road that runs sort of parallel to What will be the champlain partway is the intention to keep that maintain that? Yes, that has just been renovated as part of the burlington bike path rehabilitation and it Yes plan is to keep that It is the component of the champlain partway right of way. So And and generally my comments are i'm familiar with this area living in the south end for a number of years this was part of a running and cycling route that I use and i'm aware of all those sort of safety concerns around Trying to navigate your way over the bridge trying to get across at red rocks um and trying to get across Shelter road on the bike path. It's all very challenging. So this would definitely be a much needed improvement Great. So thanks Anything else councillor bergman? um the um So south burlington is working with us on this. Is there the thought of there being shared applications for The project is looked at as sort of a single joint community project even though it looks like most of the The work at least by mileage is in burlington Talk to me about that um Yeah What a timely conversation. Um, we are meeting with the city's newest grant director um nicole loesch To review an application for section four of this project under the v-trans bike pad This year I feel like nicole and elizabeth had conversations with ccrpc and with lucy About being able to implement that section independent of south burlington Our understanding of south burlington is they're just not ready with a match this year or With capacity to submit an application It is federal funding Bike pad grants in the city of burlington often do take longer than other municipalities So even if they apply next year the likelihood of construction on a very similar timeline is uh Is a very real possibility And I think the key pieces regional connections to score better than within city connections Working collaboratively with south burlington the rpc positions as well for grant funding whether we apply together or apart It seems to me that the The most serious safety concerns are in south burlington and I have also wanted by no area and It's a good thing. I'm young in the bull It gives that this really connects with the larger system of itself burlington that provides an opportunity if we solve some of these problems This is a green the last question I've got is just the relationship to the latest thinking on the champlain parkway I mean they look to me totally separate Pine street is going to under the the current thinking Uh dead end correct And so the bike path that exists on the parkway that will Be replaced that by this this or that it will continue It's it it will continue I think the thought is there'd be a continuous path still using that but we still need You know access along queen city park. So they're Serving two different purposes Pine street will be dead ended at the before the parkway right of way and that the shared use path would be accessible continued to be Accessed by queen city park road and so that third segment Would be On one hand duplicative but on the other hand be very helpful in terms of that Connection depending on it's going to serve more of that self brought to residents itself with number three And also any sort of burden and re-development Any other questions from counselors or comments I had one other question which is around what happens to the east Once you get to lindenwood is is there more of this plan that you're not sharing with us that or is this The entire plan is there's a south barrington component to approve The system once you get across shoulder road There is nothing beyond this project is all encompassed by this area So the path at the end of lindenwood exists and it's You know kind of narrow. I don't know if they have long-term plans to widen it at all but Okay, thank you But that is the connection to 12 or 14 miles of south Right the key connection very much great great, so Where are we in the process with this? I saw on on our agenda that there was potentially an action on recommended at this point Yeah, so we are Let me pull up my actual memo Um, yes, the memo does include that language that we are requesting from the tube this evening. Um I don't know if you want me to read that out Point on the 34 page memo the advisory committee's recommendation of page that that is on is Since you're requesting that we endorse it So the preferred alternative is on On a page number here Document page 27 of the of the report itself and was the was the advisory so Sorry for not knowing this already, but Who was on the advisory committee and were they unanimous in this? recommendation Um, I know that well lucy. I think you have the language that the All supported this recommendation Yes, and I think there I'm just trying to bring up the uh the list of members and but Everyone who was attending the last meeting was uh agreeable and unanimous on this And I don't think we would have heard anything else, but here's the list of people so Okay, finally. This is to endorse a continuous shared use path And improve crossings right Yes, yeah, yes and the um The memo does provide sort of a summary of that as well. Um at the top of the The second page of the memo separate from the report document itself That has the summary of the But what the what that alternative would actually look like Yeah And how long did this advisory committee serve for? Over the course of a year and there were four meetings so a kind of kickoff and then at each other milestones Okay, okay, and there are the minutes of the meetings in the Report and I think we didn't have the last meeting yet when we made the report so we'll include that And then final final report That's helpful Okay, does anyone I mean I have some further comments, but does anyone want to make the motion and we can to accept the scoping study to endorse the recommendation of the advisory committee For the continuous shared use path and approved crossings and to recommend that the council Do the same through resolution I'll second Okay motions been made seconded Is there any discussion I think it makes sense if there's money You know grant money to do this. It would be great. I would love South Burlington to deal with that because that part is a mess We will continue to advocate for that stuff We'll dump a lot of people out there on silver and road and Then critical mass will come with a thousand bicycles and all the whole breakers So from just had a leadership transition with their director and the new directors getting their feet out of them, but We are in communication Okay Yeah, I mean my my preference is always to separate pedestrians and Bicyclists But I don't want to they've been working on this for a year and were unanimous and I and I heard in the presentation Why that wasn't the case? so I don't think i'm going to try to You know contest that at this stage in the process But just if anyone could reiterate so it was basically the reason that it was shared use path over The separation was was that primarily driven by the the cost differential? I would say that's a big factor, but um Also that the the potential for conflict was so low Where if we had a really busy sidewalk, you'd really come down differently Yeah, yeah, because the cost again the maintenance and other things too, which you know, we Again, nothing was I don't know if there's one thing that was fully deciding, but it seemed like All of those considerations pointed that direction And lucy didn't the report also say something about it was able to to provide a more continuous like uninterrupted Right kind of the experience of that regional connection because we're connecting a path network to a path so Yeah, whereas my date separated might be more broken up a little bit choppier Right, right. Yeah, the cost differential didn't seem Didn't seem huge, but um, I think some of these other factors make sense and particularly just the fact that there's Yeah, there's not that many pedestrians on a lot of these segments um, there's also not a lot of Driveway crossings on the shared use path and that's always a concern with shared use paths Yeah, or a rural segment of the community Just if I can add also the two-way facility required right of way through much of the length of it Mm-hmm Got it great. Thanks for doing a bit of a recap on that and Are we all ready to vote on this? All right, all those in favor, please say aye Hi, so that passes unanimously. Thanks everyone for the thorough presentation. We really appreciate it Thank you for the opportunity Thank you lucy and christine Yeah, excellent We will close that item and move into our next item, which is Regarding uh, north venuski av Implementation and an update on that um Turn it over to chape and and elizabeth Great, uh, I think maybe before I jump in I could give a brief overview of what the department's been working on and no council virgin has been in communication With katana and others. So, uh, what would be the best use for the committee at this time? um Yeah, council bergman this I think you had requested this did you would you want to answer did you did you hear what? Chape in this house. I'm very happy to give a report and I actually don't have a an action request at the end, but I don't care in terms of the order and I've just Sent a tank. Oh, they're sandy excellent So and would like for her to Explain so I'm not explaining for her what she's doing so perhaps chape can give His report sandy can Talk about the conversations that we've had and what they Can and may be able to do and sort of their Their work to date and then I can Give a report on my outreach with will clavell to several businesses on the on the corridor and also my conversations with govremont and then I would I think Be in a position to you know the after conversation to perhaps Put a motion on the table Okay There was no action on the agenda and there's no associated Backing material, so I'll be hearing this for the first time today So I would be very happy if you could not to decide could not decide Okay to get a sense of things You know because I'm not clear in terms of during the process part of it has to do with the $15,000 Okay, and I'm not and they're actual so I think that putting it out on the table and then seeing what we need to do is It would be necessary and maybe sufficient for tonight. Okay Thank you Okay, great. Um director Spencer.  Yes. Thank you, uh councilor hanson so, uh We have been part of public works have been continuing to follow through with the direction of the council gave us, uh, which was Multi-fold in terms of follow-up for the implementation of the corridor study recommendation Just to recap the motion from the council Supported delaying the repaving of north monoski avenue until 2023 to give us time to do several things One was to pursue off-street parking options opportunities And the department of public works has continued to work with a number of property owners Along the corridor for two types of parking one would be parking off-street for employers and their employees specifically the community health center their employees Use a large component of the on-street parking system currently And so we've been talking to adjacent property owners With them. I've been in conversation with many of those adjacent property owners and the community health center To seek parking for business hours during weekdays In addition, there's been conversations with Property owners about nighttime shared use parking as in key sections of the corridor. There's more and more evening use on the corridor there are nighttime establishments and restaurants on the corridor and There are some parking lots particularly even having conversations with vermont legal aid with fin somnit in the middle of the corridor about the potential of Evening and weekend parking for those types of uses My team is meeting internally and has reached out actually to chcb to offer conceptual design support for potential off-street parking options This is not something we traditionally do but given the kind of interest in us collectively finding cooperative solutions to the Parking needs for the employees of community health center. We have reached out to community health center with that offer The second part of the direction for council was to work on TDM TDM takes transportation to management takes many forms Public works has been engaged in TDM activities for a long time I serve on the GMT board. We were successful this year in Raising the funds at the legislature to continue fair free transit. That's huge In addition, you know, we as the last two agenda items have discussed are bullish on building out of the bike and pedestrian network for the city to kind of provide the facilities for those modes to increase Uh, in addition to getting into The transportation management association work I've been in touch with sandy t-bone out twice About how we can partner and look at the council's commitment of $15,000 of transportation demand management funding to best Work on the corridor I've had conversations with captain. I think council Bergman has as well Have some ideas about what's best about moving forward And we look forward to partnering with them I will say just one additional piece That we have reached out to carlington housing authority for a meeting with their new executive director The mayor's office and I are reaching out to schedule that meeting for early june Uh, and uh, you know, this complements Meetings with starla boys and a number of other local partners Who could provide potentially off-street parking for the health center? So I think that's a fair bit and i'll pass it over to council Bergman So actually jim, but if I could just jibber and add a few more things one is city may know this is Pope works participates developer view and one of those things of course is to advocate for TDM missions by parking so on and so forth. So from a TDM perspective, we're playing a significant role there In the private sector beyond what we take for us within our own right away the other piece of that puzzle is jibber didn't mention this is They reached out to with zoning to find out what the possibility with would be to develop parking law I mean use of parking law at childhood site What scott gustin shared with us is that it's the enterprise parcel or enterprise district Yeah, and therefore it certainly can be accommodated in some form. So just a little add to what you have to take um, I would prefer that um And I would I would defer actually instead of prefer to To see what whether sandy would like me to go or you would like to go sandy Your choice Yeah, I'm happy to To speak. I just had a few, you know thoughts and comments. I wanted to share with the group So sandy t-bow executive director at katma The chitenden area transportation management association um, I've had conversations as chapein mentioned with himself and gene bergman in regards to the opportunity to Further educate businesses and constituents in this affected corridor and potential, you know tdm measures that we could assist in Implementing in this area and I will just say anytime in the tdm world anytime there's Development occurring or corridor construction or parking changes. It's always a good opportunity to Explore, you know tdm measures. So such as the case here on north winiski avenue So I think there's two ways katma could assist in engaging the employers In this area with tdm katma has an employee transportation coordinator network also known as the etc network um It is a free service that is supported by the regional planning commission's annual work plan They providing a support for eight years now on this etc network And this is a regional network. We have representation from businesses developers municipalities Throughout chitenden counting we have about 90 members at this time What that means is an employer designates a point person at the business to serve as the etc And they receive our quarterly newsletters. That's filled with transportation information from best schedule changes bike bike infrastructure changes car share bike share They also are invited to two events a year. We have hold one in the spring and one in the fall Um, our we have one coming up on june 8th at the bed spark space and Um, we have themed events. Uh, this particular one is focused around messaging People are returning to the work site gas prices are going up. It's a time to you know Think about different messaging to our employees. So those etc's um So these the businesses in this corridor are welcome to join this network. Um, and Join us. So that's one way. Um that we could assist and gene I think was Meeting with some of the businesses in this area to let them know about the etc network The second um way we could assist is through katma membership Katma traditional membership has focused on employers the major institutions and we have Dozen or so Small medium and large businesses that we work with And we administer and manage a comprehensive suite of tdm programs and services From incentives for biking and walking transit subsidy passes as needed as interested trip planning support Social media workshops events, etc. We also conduct surveys for our members Um in order to measure the uh trends of sustainable travel behavior um So not to get into all of the suite of programs and services, but um, we have not yet recruited Uh retail or restaurant or food establishments in our uh membership. Um Like I said, we typically focus on employers We have some commercial developers and residential developers um, I think the You know the majority of businesses in this corridor from my understanding Aside from the community health center are smaller employers from two five eight or 10 employees Um, so I don't know that an individual katma membership makes sense for the smaller employers in the area and One thought I had uh mentioned to gene and to Chapin at one point is The idea of a corridor tma membership. It's not something we offer. It's not something we can You know, we'd have to explore and research further, but um You know, I'd be happy to look into that more if that was something that would be useful for the businesses in this area um So with that said though, I do want to mention that I have met with the community health center a few years ago To to discuss TDM at their workplace. We are I am scheduled to meet with their team on june 6 Our community health center is a member of our etc network And if community health center was to join katma One of the first steps we would do is conduct a worksite assessment and then we would conduct a employee transportation survey And this provides a really good baseline data on Their employees travel behavior provides an educational opportunity for their employees And and we would learn, you know, what their employees How their employees would like to travel to work how they travel to work what would encourage them to travel differently to work So those would be a couple of the first Steps that we would Do if they were to join katma as a member So and Yeah, so there's one thought that came to mind when chapein was talking was You know offering some kind of incentives for employees in that area Maybe it's uh incentives to support each other's business local business For katma. We have a bike walk reward program where we provide our employees with Rewards to city market and ski rack and the movie theater downtown So something, you know came, you know might be worth thinking about, you know, how to incentivize employees And they can receive some You know reward card or certificate to support some of the local businesses So those are just want to offer a couple of options that katma could assist with I think I'd be I would definitely be interested in learning more about the businesses is the concern about the Employee parking, you know, obviously these are food establishments needing parking for their customers You know, are their customers more local where they are walking or busing there? Like I really want to learn more about, you know, the dynamics in the area and what people are are doing to provide some more and To provide some more assistance So thank you for your work and let me know how katma can assist with your project goals And happy to answer any questions or Great, thank you Um gene, did you want to take the floor back or yeah? I wouldn't say if you can just stay and you know on this that would be No great in this meeting. So, uh, you know, sandy and I had a number of conversations email and in in person And we focused on the community health center because in terms of the this corridor and in terms of particularly the north part of the corridor from Archibald to Riverside. This this is the big nut to crack So I'm really happy that she's going to be meeting with uh with them and uh, they expressed to me and my I mean I had like a two hour meeting with the the community health center And they expressed a real interest in getting Back into tdm So this is an opportunity they understand that they've got to do a lot of things and One of the things that sandy didn't mention tonight, but did mention Is to me is the Whether there was a possibility of us Incentivizing or encouraging them to be part of that catmah. This is the community health center through a subsidization Part of their first year's membership, which I think is a totally Depending on the in numbers. We've got $15,000 to do that. So sandy how much would An annual membership be It's our employer memberships are based on the number of employees and I believe I don't have their number off the top of my head, but I believe they might fall in the 50 to 150 employees Maybe that's the case and and that's $2,500 a year Okay, so, you know, I mean, I think that we might be talking about 12, you know, I I believe that people should be boning up themselves, but 50% of the 1,200, you know, $50 Contribution to that as an encouragement for them to get involved. I think is something that we should Consider and the process for doing that is something to explore because the in my mind The the employee survey as well as the workplace assessment is absolutely critical for them to be able to know how it is that they can Make this adjustment To the differences in parking. So I think it is critically important On that regard and the other piece and I know that sandy you just mentioned that but you were Thinking about there may be the opportunity to do a study or a pilot program In the the later summer or the the mid to late summer or fall related to a transportation management association for the quarter and My conversations with the different Employers, I spoke I've spoken late four or five employers there on the street There's an openness to that So, you know, I mean the devil's in the details. It was a very very brief conversations, but they understand that individually they you know They're not in a position to do something but that there's an interest that they all have You know together as businesses on this quarter and this goes from Riverside to north. So I don't know sandy what you need to To explore That more fully And what you need from us in particular that would be I think helpful because I do think that the the promotion of a tma on that quarter Has tremendous benefits not just for transportation But for the whole economic vitality and the community development of that area something I've been trying to sell the business support people on Because it's not just a transportation matter. So is there Something that you can add with that Sure. So katma, we just um hired a consultant out of state consultant steer consulting to Evaluate our current membership structure and are in our package of TDM services And we are expecting that project to be completed in october um, and so my plan is to Is to bring this up to our consultant as they're evaluating the the structure on the and Explore the potential for at this type of corridor tma membership And and Nationally see if there's other tmas that provide a similar structure and services Another thing I wanted to just mention is as a katma member employees at community health center um And specifically would be Eligible for a discount on our green ride bike share annual membership and currently the system is in process of being expanded throughout burlington and some neighborhoods and The community health center area is one of the potential hub expansions And so their employees would be eligible for a 30 discount discount as a katma member Great another reason for us to to help get them into that system. Um so I've I've also like I said talked to um Community health center and I just want to share That uh an email that I got um from kim anderson at the health center We said if she wanted to let us let me know that their executive director spoken with clean city steel About the possibility of using the property directly behind their building For a potential lot construction and their architects are going to be exploring what can be managed on that slope Now I've also spoken with uh brian pine um at the cbdg conversation and a A hard Construction project is something that is cbdg eligible and it fits within the criteria Of the program in many many ways So I think that There isn't there is there are funds To be able to do this if we play it right and we've got some time to do that mobility and economic Vitality it all fits Within that so I would just say that within the context of your conversations Chapin Um to you know, it it those synergies are something that uh, we should uh, we should try to uh to bank So to speak, um Did brian say how much cbdg money there was? They are generally in You know They're They're $500,000. I mean Some significant there is a significant amount of change. That's true. That's on there.  Could we do that? Um And the the the relationship with that lot to other tm Tdm materials. I mean sandy talked about this with me. There is a potential disincentive That they would have if they build this lot So I why do I have to do all this transportation demand management, right? People are like that, but so I think it is really important For us to understand that the long-term benefit To the environment to the city to residents is to try to get away from the dependency on the single occupancy vehicle And to make this transportation Change and therefore you know, we don't want to just say, okay, we'll build this lot and then We don't have to worry about it. So that that is my hope that we're working on all these pieces together and the reason that the the the Corridor management association is really important is that I'm going to start. I'm going to segue to foe hop who was one of the first Businesses that I we spent a lot of time and they have got some very unique employee Problems they've got customer Problems, but they also have some very unique Employee and I don't know that they're different than a lot of people because their employees are coming They're maybe six or seven or eight of them So they're not a lot of them like sandy was saying but they're coming from all over the joint Right and their hours are really weird, you know coming in at one o'clock leaving at a you know between 10 and 1 Right. So like drinking, you know, like car Pooling or van sharing or ride on that doesn't really work so good So one of the things shape in that in terms of your conversations with ph a Would I raise this with foe hung and they were like, hmm could that happen is maybe Something for their employees. They don't need a lot of spots there, but that would really be very important and the The the pressure that is going to be on the shared lot of old spokes uh Good news garage and now foe hung is going to be incredible and the ability to do parking enforcement is a factor which I think that we should Start to build into our thinking, but if we could get foe hung's employees very close by but Offsite that would be pretty cool and there are at there are about five spots That are at the bh a facility there that would I think be sort of prime for that? So you might want to build that into the to the thinking There are with they and the African market and junk eats I think that short term parking the management plan talks a lot about short term parking and The idea of 15 and 30 minute 45 minute Spots is very important for us to build in To to this You've got people who are picking up people who are in shopping For about an hour for example, uh, the African market People are at about the 35 to 40 30 to 45 minute Shopping need there. They're coming from all over the place So a 45 minute spot is not an unreasonable amount And then crosswalks because if we were moving before we're moving parking from the east side junk eats and Who's you call it and the African market are on the side that They're they're losing the parking. So somebody can't just pull up there and do that. So The relationship and I don't know whether this is where the We're $15,000, you know where this TDM, you know Whether maybe that's some of the money, you know, where some of the money could come from for like big block crossing, but we we we've got to build that that in to their work Bike racks at Foham They have they have like none there So that would be kind of good loading zones on the Stop on maybe in the sidewalk, you know doing a little bit of a pull in If it was limited in time, I don't yeah I know the engineering issues there, you know people do pull up on the sidewalk People do pull up on the sidewalk with their trucks. I I've seen that on occasion. No, maybe we can, you know So the question is just I you know in terms of this work That's the kind of thing that and you know, that is In dbw's valley work, but it's these are things that were raised in my conversations with them Um on the street and they were like significant conversations. I could share So when you say that team is enough space to kind of squeeze over and create like a turnout and maintain a sidewalk or not I think that in the old The salvation army there is sort of like this drive. There's an area that I think you could probably pull off The yeah, not a turn around. I don't want to get young. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no I I mean, I think that and I'd be very happy to go out there on the street With an engine, you know with engineers and sort of look at this and introduce us To these people because the other thing Is the connections they need to know that and one last idea that came out of these conversations that I had with them and the govremont Was the idea of shopping carts there at these and Charlie's You know, it's just a lot of people their laundry in it and govremont has got a program They're trying to encourage that they've got a pilot project up in franklin county In a food desert people got to walk to a long way to get Their food and that seeming to work at the african market Would be interested in that it's not a giveaway from Govremont so that may be an area that we would use some money for from the 15 000 As a pilot project to see how that could work So this motion That I want us to consider and I will you have us think about because I don't know that we need to do this right now but is basically to provide a percentage I'll throw out 50 percent of one year membership for community health center As an incentive that we put in Money for the shopping trolleys. I would say 10 That would be cited at the african market And then And this is something that does not require money. I would like us to Hold a community meeting to give people a status update And I think that there actually should be two meetings one on the north of archivaled and one the south to union Because people don't know what's happening And that is the worst thing for us collectively And so that would mean a meeting to give a status of the of the project to talk about the resources that would be available Or the resources that may be able if there was interest in it that we could explore that we would Encourage people to talk about their needs, but in a way that was actually solution Based instead of complaint based in other words, not I just need parking But you know like what about if we had parking, you know 15 or 30 minutes here What about the crosswalks here? How would that all work? You know, so we we get focused on solutions um I would Like us to Work and I don't think that it's ready yet But uh for if sandy were to need some monies for a quarter Uh tma That we would Contribute from this pot and it wouldn't be a lot But there it would be something there because I really think that the employee Surveys is really important um and um I think actually the last thing with that meeting Is that this is probably a really good site to test The sidewalk maintenance the sidewalk matrix to see just what people actually Think about it or some way to use if not One of these meetings then the fact that we're going to have conversations about this fundamental transformation of the street um and start to look at the sidewalks because that transportation mobility on it here has the The the the the top Improvement that people in the old north end want is better sidewalks And so here is an opportunity at a very Basic level and that's what we heard in the you were at the committees, you know like You're not helping us, you know, we need better sidewalks. We need better buses So this might be a really good Place And the community Meeting process might be a really good way to test some of those transparency Concerns that we had on the sidewalk matrix And I've sort of actually Framed up a request that mark has said let's chew on it. So I'm okay with doing that For the next month and what you would need for me in terms of documents That I can get to make this easier to make a decision would be greatly appreciated so because I'll get that you know fundamentally the components are to Hold meetings Pony up some money And engage people on some of these other basics And on the street themselves and Great Thank you council Bergman. So you're not making a motion, right? I am making a motion and i'm asking that we deal with it next at the next meeting That we defer action on this into the next meeting and that we We have the opportunity you have the opportunity to ask for some details and some documents if any if I mean, which I got great, but that's okay or Uh, I think what I'm hearing from you is not so much that there's a formal motion on a table But you've put concepts forward that you want to work with staff over the coming month to bring a written Motion to the next meeting forevote. Is that right? I I can go with that if the staff is is interested in in taking me On this walking on this journey with me. So those shortly All right Go ahead. Um, so I'm supportive of this. I just think that it needs a little bit more formulation Um, I like the idea of trying to incentivize businesses along the corridor um and assist them and capa Um subscriptions One of the things I guess I have questions about is I know Will Klobel is also working on this Um, and he is a person Who introduced me all these meetings with them, right? What's with will and he's meeting with the various businesses or in collaboration with you meeting with these various Businesses and it sounds like you said you it indicated you met with like four or five of them You know, it'd be good to meet with all of us We understood the entire scope and then we could Prioritize the disbursement or the best Best use of the $15,000 for TDMA that's been appropriated From that, you know from that Though the the outcomes of those meetings Because it seems like as you meet you discover new opportunities like the cards with the African market So I would just like to maybe flesh this out a little bit more, but I am supportive This this this is great. Um, one of the things that I hear from that and which I totally support is the integration of all the staff Who have an interest in this working together on that and there has been a little bit of confusion Uh Regarding at least what has been articulated to me So I there's a triangulation coming on because a lot of information is passing through you I am working hard to talk to Cara will directly so that staff can communicate collaborate and we are definitely going to continue This is good. So I'll be very happy to To have that because Yeah Um, can I are you where you still going? Um, Gina Yeah, I so I guess I'll comment now. I would say two two main things I'd want to emphasize one is I think you said this gene and I agree is that To to build a new parking lot I think would really undermine the goal of what we're trying to do here and When we talk about demand management, we mean, you know, reducing demand for parking not Not increasing supply of parking. Um, and so I think we should really be focused in all these conversations and as we do this work on reducing that parking demand rather than Trying to build more build more parking. Um So that's one thing I just want to voice and The other thing I would say is in terms of yeah, we've set aside $15,000 to help To help businesses reduce parking demand and and and do TDM and I think I think I'm agreeing with with mark and shape and to some extent is that That that should be done through the process that I think is is underway rather than By by this committee sort of saying, okay, we're going to give CHT this money to pay Katmar. We're going to give African market. I think it should be The businesses apply and it could be a very simple application. It could be You know the amount of money What's your plan described briefly your plan for reducing Parking and you know, how many employees do you have and how much, you know, just It could be a basic application and that way We could take that higher level view of okay, here's what the different businesses are requesting and If businesses wanted to get together and do a joint application Say there was a handful that wanted to Come to the city and say we want $5,000 jointly to hire Katmudd have worked with us jointly. I think that's that's fine and they could do that but I want to sort of leave it to the businesses to proactively tell us what They're going to do and why why they why we should give them money and how that money is going to go towards, you know reducing the demand on on parking by their employees so My my understanding was always that it would be done by application, but maybe I just invented that At some point, but that that is my Opinion is that it should be done by application It's not really a response. I mean that that sounds perfectly fine, but I can tell you That transportation is seen as something outside of the business Responsibilities that they have it's a very foreign thing. So they're being Made to do this and as a result The amount of help that they need to get to that point of doing a An application is going to be great I think as long as we are proactive in the assistance and the outreach And we try to encourage them and we can bring in other resources that it will be effective, but Without that, it's not going to happen. I would bet anything But I am not a betting man So But I but I don't think that's it but but I don't think that an application processes that a way that we can set this up Is is inconsistent with that and in fact can encourage people to be thinking more Clearly about it. So I absolutely Can see how that could happen Yeah, no, I hear that. I mean, I would say though I think a lot of these businesses do think a lot about transportation and For example have been very active throughout This when you ski out process advocating for You know, what they believe is going to serve them from a transportation perspective and many of them have Spent a lot of money, you know building parking lots or setting up systems for Employee parking. So I think some of them do think about it a lot and devote a lot of resources to it in terms of Transportation others may not which is the ones that really don't want to Have this resource with Katma that they can If they don't want to think about it as much they can essentially, you know higher Katma to Do a lot of that coordination for them, but I think it's They may not Think they're thinking about it, but I think most of them are thinking about it And devoting resources to it This is just a shift in the way they the way that they would need to think about it going forward because the city is no longer going to be Giving them the the same level of Um Parking that the city was essentially providing them before Um sandy, were you gonna I say come off mute? Were you gonna tell me I was just gonna say that's exactly uh, so two comments as you know asking a business a small business with minimal resources to Complete an application or to do any extra, you know Work with transportation. I know, you know I think could be true the other um The other comment I had was um The benefit of our etc network and the the reason we created the etc network Was to engage more businesses on what is tdm? What is the value? What is the benefits and to collaborate and network with others that are You know having transportation challenges so like they don't feel like oh, they're just targeting me You know, or it's only us that deal with parking or Transportation challenges. It's a form for people to talk about what their challenges are and maybe seek You know network and talk with others like how they resolve those challenges You know, whether it's joining katma or some other solutions. They did internally So I think if we could you know encourage these Businesses but again, it's hard. They're running a business. They may not have time to leave from 11 30 to 1 twice a year, you know um You know be great if even if we could get a cut two or three of the businesses to come to our june 8th event um And just hear a little bit more about tdm and talk with other businesses because they're from all over You know the region So anyway, I think it's like engaging them in that tdm conversation and really understanding and Get them excited about seeking other types of solutions great Thank you, sandy. Um any other comments on this Before we move on okay All right. Well seeing none. We can kind of take this offline and continue this discussion. Um And we will close that item out for tonight and we'll go to Our final deliberative item the champlain parkway update take care sandy. Thanks so much for making that So i'm going to turn it over to norm cori and john for for this one Great, I know norm had to step out briefly But we had heard from my billy was counsel bergman with a question from a constituent about whether the repayment provisions that uh Were seen to be rescinded as part of the infrastructure and jobs act at the federal government task It's also mine to the champlain parkway There's been a lot of discussion around the enormity of funds spent to date on this project and and the Repayment provisions inter cooperative agreement. So we wanted to have our legal team fully vet those out and provide you with a memo as you'll see in your packet that really Clearly indicates the city's position on this And i'll leave it to the project team to talk more I suppose that's me Yeah, so the the analysis of that memo You know, we just took a look at the rationale that federal highways are applying And you know the impact on that of the infrastructure act last fall And it there was one repayment provisionality, but not the one federal highway is disrelying. So Uh, if you want to look at more detail It was great. It was a great legal memo. I this reading them and writing them Glad to do it. So Any questions I read the memo was clear to me. Okay. Thank you. Sure. No problem We probably should have great Go who was someone just trying to speak was that core here? I can't Sorry, it's hard for me to tell who in the room is trying to speak. Um, you're all very small on my screen No problem. We were just having a conversation and having a lawyer sit in the room for three hours Probably wasn't the best organization of the agenda and that's my fault. So Thanks to john for being patient, but You know councilor hands. Do you have any questions about the memo or the the conclusions in it? So the bottom the bottom line is nothing nothing has changed regarding this jambplain parkway repayment Great, correct. Okay great, um I do not and I also want to apologize that yeah, we we should have We should have thought of this earlier of not Arranging the agenda in this in this way. So I'm sorry for that as the chair for you all that you you had to sit through And ultimately it was we didn't end up having A conversation on that. I'm sorry about that No problem at all. I found it very interesting and I was able to get some other work done. So this wasn't all on the city's All right, I'm glad I'm glad you had your computer and we're doing other work and also You know got something out of the other discussions. So That is good to hear and any other questions or thoughts on this before we Kind of close things out. Is there any Reason to Just publicize this knowing that there are people that are out there who are saying that the laws changed and you know, this is a reason to To kill the project, you know, there's not going mitigation. I'm always a little reluctant to put things out And in those circumstances it's any wider than they need to be just You know anything You can be misconstrued in mitigation. So yeah, but I would I would defer to a city on that issue I mean, I think you know the the reasonable approach would be if you were contacted by an individual with concern about this This memo is a public document on the city's website. You could direct them to the memo That would be I think the appropriate Okay, so we are allowed to share it if someone wants to see it I mean, I guess the question that Jean has expressed the past is that you know the the project website Should just be posted as kind of a document I mean it it it seems to be a straightforward legal publicly bill argument. It's a publicly available. It would make sense to do that you know the less free meaningless questions the The more time we have to spend on the important arguments As you're probably posing it there, but yeah, okay I think you can forward it along to the folks who express concern and we will look at posting it on the Alrighty anything else on this Hearing none, I will close that out. Thanks everyone and we will go to the director's report Yeah, we're in the robust agenda. I will leave it at that I'm happy to answer any questions of the councillors updates Okay, any councillor updates or questions All right hearing none Our next meeting is on the 28th and if there's no objections, I will adjourn Thank you so much everyone. I've got a conflict on the 28th Which I will see if I can resolve but I don't think I I'm gonna be able to but I maybe have a town on the 28th Okay Trip that might have been planned and it isn't certain yet, but it's within that time frame to a town that doesn't exist All right, well, why don't you all um Just confirm that on your end if there's no way around here if you need if you both can't be here Um, we'll we'll need to reschedule. So just uh See if there's anything you can do and if not, we can find a time. I'm pretty Flexible on my end and we'll have to work with staff to find a time Great. Does that make sense or do folks want to try to like I'd suggest we consider the the previous Tuesday the 21st So when you're looking at dates if you can let us know about the 21st and 28th The 21st is is wide open for me. I think it works for me as well Me too me too Require us all to beat drums and celebrate the solstice together, but you know, I could do that I'll break my single. Wow So we already we already solved the scheduling problem we're 21st at five We're gonna take a look at the front conference room. I think matty is on Yeah, okay Great. We'll let's all plan on that unless we hear otherwise. Okay Okay, I love it. Great Thank you. Great. Thanks so much Is booked First we could do that thursday or uh that so thursday the 23rd or monday the 20th front conference room is open. I haven't I'm not looking at you Council's the 20th, I think 27th. Yeah, I think one option could be just finding a different location for the meeting Uh Yeah, or going or going virtual potentially. Yeah, yeah 21st We could do it. Maybe is Are you able to see the schedule for the busher conference room in city hall or even just the main contoys? I don't Conference room I can try that. Yeah, we'll take a look. It sounds like the 21st is preferable to the 28th The other thing is I just need to make sure that uh of the items we have coming up that will be prepared A week early, but I think we got a clear sense of what works better for you and we'll work through a comedy Okay, that sounds good. Let us know. Okay Thank you so much everyone Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great night. Take care likewise. Yeah We didn't picture I think uh, it was by consensus. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, all righty. Take care everyone. Bye. Thank you Jack