All right. Good morning. We apologize for being a little bit late. We were transferring between links on zoom and Many of our witnesses were given the wrong link and so those technical difficulties cost us a few minutes, but we're lucky that everybody is back that ready to go live Dealing with age 183 and act relating to sexual violence the committee has been working Very hard on changes to it and we'll hear from Shell, but we also asked Kate Great from victim services director of one state police menu crime unit to discuss this bill and Over to you Kate look forward to hearing you just Thank You chairman Sears for inviting me to testify today and thank you and Hello to the rest of the committee members. Good morning. My name is Kate Searles Brayton I'm a licensed clinical social worker in the state of Vermont and in my social work career I've worked with hundreds of sexual assault victims in different capacities Currently I'm the victim services director for the Vermont State Police and I'm assigned to the major crime unit In my daily job, I work with family families who are experiencing acute trauma From the loss of a loved one through homicide or other traumatic death during the investigation case investigation phase of their case My other responsibilities include involved it include consulting on cases statewide that include acute trauma or victimization I'm part of the internal domestic violence task force for the Vermont State Police as well as domestic violence fatality review committee Time I teach at Norwich I teach victimology victim services and restorative justice to spread a little background And here today to talk about how trauma responses can substantially impair the ability of someone to react during a sexual assault regardless of other contributing factors When a person is faced with an instance of perceived danger or fear our bodies Respond with mechanisms that originate deep within our brain and affect our whole body These reactions are involuntary meaning they happen to you and not because of a decision-making process. I Would expect that most of you have heard of a couple of the defense mechanisms fight flight and freeze are ones that often people refer to and have some common knowledge about They're part of a defense mechanism called a defense cascade and So there are six specific defense cascade reactions that can happen. I'm going to talk about a couple that we don't hear about as much The first response is arousal And when we experience arousal what happens is our body opens up our center to take in data to start to look at potential threats around us.  I also see it often in my dogs in the daily behavior if there's a knock on the door They'll freeze and scan before they decide what to do next and freezing can it can take just a couple of seconds Before you move into the next phase and usually the next phase is that fight-or-flight phase where you take action or you retreat depending on your ability to do so and so That's the one that people know most about But if you're in the freeze response where you're scanning and assessing and you your brain Assesses that there is no way to escape or there is no way to fight Your body can quickly go into what's called tonic immobility and tonic immobility is a defense mechanism mechanism that gets gets triggered in humans and animals when they have the The perception of being caught and not being able to escape, right? So tonic immobility is a state of involuntary paralysis In which a person cannot move and cannot speak In animals we work to it as feigning dead or feigning death In sexual assault, it's referred to sometimes as rape induced paralysis The reaction happens for two primary reasons biologically one is to deactivate the kill reflex in the predator And two is to try to avoid consumption It's truly a last resort mechanism to preserve life and that's its function In this reaction, the person is aware of everything going on around them They are aware of what's happening, but they are unable to access their motor systems including speech In a 2007 study from Stockholm Sweden about tonic immobility They found that of the participants who had survived a sexual assault 70% Experienced significant tonic immobility In that study It's important to understand that tonic immobility in and of itself is terrifying Because while under in the middle of an assault you're unable to engage your body and unable to verbalize And it can have long-term impacts on mental health People who experience tonic immobility during a sexual assault are twice as likely to experience post-traumatic stress disorder And three times more likely to experience severe depression in the months after the assault People with a previous history of sexual assault are twice as likely to experience tonic immobility during a subsequent assault And people who experience violence or penetration during an assault are also twice as likely to exhibit these symptoms According to an article in Scientific American that looked at the research regarding tonic immobility Part of the reason for increased adverse mental health outcomes for survivors May be how we understand and judge involuntary reactions that we have perceived it in some way to be voluntary During an assault when the body is doing exactly what it needs to do to survive Victims are judged for not doing enough Not fighting back or not saying no The lack of awareness and understanding in the public on this topic mixed with the possible shame and self-doubt Experienced by victims of sexual assault leads to a misunderstanding of the strength that it took for a person to endure the assault and survive it Court systems can reinforce this harm by failing to recognize innate biological responses to serious incidents Along with tonic immobility one of the defense mechanisms past that is Collapsed immobility and collapsed immobility uses the same biological defense mechanisms as tonic immobility Except that you are rendered unconscious or semi-conscious So the difference between the two is awareness and memory retention Which happens much more significantly in tonic immobility than collapsed immobility In h183 lack of verbal and physical consent is not only Inhibited by outside factors that you've discussed in previous testimony like alcohol medication or substances Or another barrier. It can actually be our own biological defenses reacting to keep us alive That impedes our ability to resist an assault Legislation like 183 allows for these natural and voluntary and many times life-preserving mechanisms And it's important for victims who are seeking safety and justice and validation of their experience The acknowledgement of affirmative consent in this bill Is a way to validate the survivors of sexual assault did exactly what they needed to do to get through a life threatening or violating event The language proposed in this bill regarding consent allows for the concept that silence doesn't equal consent It allows for the possibility that the defense cascade immobility Would cause serious impairment for a victim of sexual assault When someone experiences immobility related to defense mechanism Engagement becomes impossible consent becomes impossible and fight and flight become impossible in those moments There's one part of the bill in particular in the definition section under the definition of sexual assault That says when the person knows or reasonably should know that the other person is asleep Unconscious or otherwise unaware that the sexual act is occurring I might be so bold as to suggest adding to that Something like unable to engage in something like unable to engage in In order to capture these These reactions as they happen So it would read something like when a person knows or reasonably should know that the other person is asleep unconscious unable to engage in Or otherwise unaware that the sexual act is occurring That may better include the trauma responses I talked about today I have to say that I really appreciate the leadership of this committee To to work towards more effective laws and language that truly speaks to the research in regards to trauma and violent crime I'm also as an adjunct professor Excited about the provisions regarding higher ed resources to focus on this as an issue Um, and I'm happy to respond to any questions or talk a little more about any of the things I've talked about today Oh, um, thank you very much. Kate.  I might say and it's something I think we Don't usually get but we can certainly use to help better understand what victims may be going through um I I do appreciate your Suggestion for unable to engage in Um, but I'm wondering what if other states have used similar language we A number of us are Concerned about the draft here and to make sure that Um, the totality of the circumstances are taking into account and using more of the federal definitions So I'm curious if other states have used the unable to engage in or And I don't know the answer. Yeah, I don't know the answer to that question But certainly, you know Thank you other questions for kate senator benning Kate this just seems to be my week for looking at things in a different way and sounding like i'm a neanderthal, but i'm going to take this shot The one thing that has me concerned here is the concept that a long-standing married couple Um may be in bed together And one partner um Is interested in having relations sexual relations with the other partner And the other partner is asleep at that moment and The hope is that if there is an advance of some kind the other partner will wake up and be willing As I read this bill with that language, we're creating a crime out of that situation And my misreading something or is that what you nevertheless would prefer to be the case that we are creating a crime out of that event I would I would argue that the moment that that person wakes up and begins to engage in Uh with their partner That that becomes a mute point Um, it's the engagement I would agree there, but I i'm i'm looking at the language and i'm thinking to myself The initial move Is now being made a crime and i'm It could just be me. It could just be the way i'm reading it as a defense attorney that wouldn't surprise me this week, especially but um I'm thinking there's there's just something to leave me uncomfortable there Let me just add a little bit about um tonic immobility in the study in stock home Which was a nice study because It captured victims Assessments early after the assault and not a lot of the research on tonic immobility is Looking at past experiences, especially with childhood sexual assault, which is tonic immobility is has very high Incidents and they use a tonic immobility diagnostic tool In order to assess the level of tonic immobility and collapsed immobility in clients And there are a series of things that that you know that they assess and so tonic immobility if I could just so If you're Experiencing tonic immobility and somebody were to move your arm It would it they could just lift it and it would drop right you don't have You don't have the ability to kind of manage those motor skills Which looks very different and I would expect should be a reasonable Assessment that somebody who is trying to engage in sex with you would have That your body is not mobile and you are not using motor skills at that time If that makes sense whereas the situation you're talking about In a married couple who engages in sex, you know as one of them awakes It has full function of their body and their speech usually at that time Because the The mechanism is triggered Only when Fight and flight is seen to be impossible It is the final and last resort I guess I'm I'm not sure it's clearing my hurdle and that's what I'm I mean the sleeping person could very well say No, I'm not interested and contact should stop. I have no question about that But we seem to be one step before that decision being made By labeling a sleeping or unconscious person as someone who cannot consent I guess I'll I'll wait to hear from the Attorney general's office and the state's attorneys and the defense counsel to see if I'm missing something It could just be me. I could be missing something But that's what I'm fearing right now Could I have a question? Oh I'm muted because my entire file system I'm muted. No still applies. Oh, I'm sorry. You had the question. I was explaining that um My entire my entire file system here at the house just fell over and So, uh, unfortunately, I thought I was muted, but it was Phillip who was muted So, uh, I just tell if you have a question. I just wanted to say I'm sorry senator baruth. Yeah I just wanted to tag on to what joe was saying It has seemed to me the more we discuss this That it it really even though the bill doesn't say it it really is creating a standard where you need um a vocal expression of consent And if you don't and and I wanted to ask you, um, miss bradon Is that how you see it? Um I don't see it as as specifically always having to be vocal Um, but the uh resistance to engage in um I I believe is a lack of consent. So for instance if well, but let's let's stay on the consent side because The bill is the bill is defining everything as what doesn't count as consent Right. So when when you talk about resistance So we're we're saying that if someone is A sleep or unconscious or frozen Um, that's not consent And so there has to be some active expression of consent And I understand what you're saying that it could be non-verbal But it it seems as though under this framing The absolute safest thing for everyone within the law is to get an expression of verbal consent Since anything else could be read or misread in the moment and I I know that that's a fine line that the drafters of the bill were trying to walk because There has been in other states like california There's been pushback against the idea that there would be express consent Not just for the act, but at each stage of the act Right. So I'm I'm wondering how much you can help us with What what does this bill require in terms of having something count as consent? Yes, and and and you know to be uh Honest most of my work is in the field and it's you know, so I don't often in you know, engage in policy discussions at this level my But my opinion is that verbal consent is the best-case scenario. It is a clear indicator of engagement Engagement can happen non-verbally and I think It it is hard to It is hard to pin down if you know it when you know it, you know, and so But verbal engagement. I think our verbal consent is the clearest An easiest to define I believe in in consent. It is best best practice um Okay, so that's that's my real You know my real thing that i'm thinking through here is it's It's very clear on what doesn't What doesn't count as consent clear that our laws are now That's good But but there's a one sentence. I don't know if you have the legislation in front of you Okay, so there's a one sentence thing at the beginning That says consent means words or action by a person indicating a knowing and voluntary agreement to engage in a sexual act And words obviously would be clear actions, um Again less less so but I think what joe is talking about is that same area where um If it comes down to actions It seems to me that's where the the real genuine possibility of misunderstanding comes in um You know if if someone squeezes your hand tightly Does that mean that they want it to go forward or they don't want it to go forward So that's why I pose the question to you as somebody who Is familiar with that tonic immobility um Isn't that the case that you might have Some reactions that could be misread physical reactions That's a great question with tonic immobility in particular um, it would be really hard to misread the uh, the point at which somebody is physically incapable of engaging in That acts that you're engaging in um, they Literally are unable to move their body on their own and so especially with collapsed immobility Um, although their eyes may be open or you know, they may be semi-conscious They are unable to Action their body. So well, but couldn't there be um, couldn't there be a range of Of freeze reactions and and you might have somebody who was more or less immobilized but capable of some small physical response There can be a range and there can be a going in and out of um, but tonic immobility itself does not look like um It doesn't I'm trying to word this the right way It is not an act of submission It's an act of protection Um, and I am trying to imagine a case Or somebody was engaging um in sexual conduct with somebody who was not able to realize That that they are not in control of their body or their speech Well, I guess I guess what I'm going to is it it seems In this rendering in the bill we're looking at It seems to me that the drafting and the thinking about what is in consent has been Considerable It it seems a little underdone on What constitutes consent and that's of course the pivot point that people will be prosecuted on So, you know Any any suggestions for how we might beef up that language we we had um our Attorney send us around some other definitions of consent From other other states, but that's that's my question at this point Yeah, um and and again, you know, it's not entirely in my wheelhouse to be thinking about it in those ways my um You know my certainly my goal today was to kind of open up the conversation about When the bill talks about incapacity or impairment that that looks like more than You know being intoxicated or having substance use be occurring in the in the act so I certainly would like to hear from other witnesses and also we'll think about Ways that that would that would make sense and can come back to the committee Great. Thank you Yes, I very much appreciate the discussion. Um, I think Obviously if some if there's verbal consent and that's fairly easy or if there is not verbal consent Also, really if somebody verbally says no, that's Understand, but if somebody is unable to engage in I like that term Um is unconscious So intoxicated they're unable to engage in I'm not sure at what stage of intoxication You know You're rendered incapable Siding You know it I think there's some A lot of thought needs to be taken into this And that's one of the reasons I liked having something in there regarding the totality Totality of the circumstances, right? So that you're taking into account everything that's going on and That's not in the house draft. It's believe in the federal Senator white So thanks, Kate. That was helpful and I I'm sorry to have been late, but Um, again at the risk as Joe said of I'm putting myself in the hot spot here I do have the same concern at the of the non verbal Ascent that there there is consent non verbally and I'm I am concerned and I hope that we can come up with some language that um That clarifies that so that just because there isn't verbal consent It means no consent and so I I I do have that same I think it's pretty clear if somebody is Incapable of of moving or incapable of engaging That's pretty clear in my mind, but it's A different um level that I'm concerned about and so I hope we can come up with some Some language that Doesn't mean that just because there isn't verbal consent. It's non consent Um, is there anybody in the I really had a question for Kate first Is there anybody else in the room? with us Who would like to comment on the discussion At this point either Sarah Becca David brewery or Michelle sorry While let michelle go first if if you'd like I was just I was just going to mention something with respect to senator benning's concern about a sleeping partner And um, so the act requires as an element that a sexual act the the statute does and so that sexual act is specifically Defined and I'm going to put that in the chat so you can look at that and um send it out to everybody so the definition of the sexual act and so I would imagine that In the scenario that you're talking about Joe that You know, you kind of turn to your partner and whatever they're not necessarily while they're still asleep Going directly to what is defined as a sexual act. There's a little bit of a lead up Or there's something that then rouses the person and and then the actor is able to engage the person's interest or willingness to engage in the sexual act But the person the actor wouldn't be Engaging in the sexual act while the person is still asleep and unaware that the sexual act is occurring Michelle any intrusion however slight Of the parts listed I don't want to get too personal here, but the long and the short of it is people Commence sexual activity In many different ways. I know that this bill is trying to get at preventing someone who either doesn't want it Or is manipulated by the perpetrator To stop that kind of behavior But it seems to me there's a strong possibility That the sleeping person may have been invaded in one of these categories In the hopes by the other person that when they wake up, they're going to continue the activity And that's where I get a little Queasy on moving that particular portion of it. Yeah, I think the act clearly does say You don't intrude into a person's Unless you know you have consent And so you have a sleeping partner And this may have been activity that was In previous engagements perfectly acceptable That doesn't matter under the rape shield law I know So now you're you're specifically saying to all couples in this situation You cannot Move to go into one of these categories If your partner is asleep There's no ends if buts or maybes about it. It's a very clear statement. We're creating A potential criminal case If you do And that Has me leery about how people normally interact with each other I fully understand and support the concept of preventing Activities by people who are either Manipulated into when they don't want it or they are unconscious or rendered under Some kind of duress I fully understand and support that concept. I want to be very careful that we are not including something Um that was unintended And as I see it written the way it is currently I have that fear very deep So I'm Can I ask Joe a question? Yeah So Joe in that case, um Nobody's gonna know about it unless the other unless the partner files some kind of charge. I mean So if if the partner files some kind of a charge Then maybe there's issues there that go beyond just A nice healthy relationship and I just I'm I I can't Deny that but we are setting up initially a charge And if the partner Wakes up and says okay, that's great You're right. No reports made we're we're done with the conversation But if for whatever reason and I've represented people in family court for 37 years And I know there are instances where people suddenly have a change of heart We have now created a criminal offense that i'm not sure we want to go in that direction with but I'm I'm open to hearing other conversations all that good and right now I've got rebecca turner who's got her hand up and rory Who um was good was going to speak and I'd like to hear from both of them and then we can continue the conversation So starting with rory and then rebecca Good morning for the record rory kiba washington county states attorney. I think it's important to go back to the existing Law and definition of consent, which is consent means words or actions by a person indicating a voluntary agreement to engage in a sexual act So under existing law a sleeping person cannot demonstrate through other words or actions that they are voluntarily engaging in that Again, I agree with senator whites assessment, which is past actions or pattern of conduct may May suggest that that's okay in a confines of an established relationship And again, if there is a complaint, it's not there are detectives There aren't siu detectives in everybody's bedroom or or camera monitors When we deal with their address a complaint like this, it's because One partner the other has come forward with Those circumstances even then I think sarah robinson in the past has provided great testimony about the number of reports Versus the number of cases filed versus the number that actually proceeded to a trial I think what you're taking out of the loop here is prosecutorial discretion, which includes necessarily analysis of potential mistake of fact as to consent These are all factors that get considered before Going forward and you know, I don't want to be the Winey prosecutor, but we are resource limited We do not have the luxury of pursuing complex sex assault cases on fringe theories where We stand very little chance of succeeding a trial And fortunately, I think to the detriment of victims There are times where tough calls fall on the side of not filing because there's such a low likelihood of succeeding a trial Leaving them to really you know seek civil remedies or other recourse to protect themselves So I think that I don't mean to be You know too dark with this but the scenario in which is being discussed is Incredibly limited and under existing law that person if sleeping and penetrated there is a potential prima facie case The modifications proposed by h183 tend to clarify the state of the law But they don't cover any new ground with respect to the propriety and engaging in a sexual act with someone who's sleeping or unconscious Last point I like to make as well though I think senator sears point is very well taken about the totality of the circumstances While it does not appear out of the federal draft or in h183 It does seem appropriate that the consent definition in section one Be concluded with a comma based upon the totality Of the circumstances But with that being said there are some circumstances That either fall into the rate messes We'd previously discussed that are currently under the trial procedure or rape shield evidence, which is precluded Absent that the totality of the circumstances is always considered not just by the fact finder trial But by the prosecutors and investigators who are looking into these cases in the first place We absolutely take into account What the nature of the relationship was what the history was what the past Experiences were and the rape shield is not a full shield if you will rather There are some Institutionally based defenses or circumstances particularly when relating to a mistake of fact That can come in So with that being said believe that there is not new ground being covered and The discussion here is I think more academic than than how things are are practiced Well rory clearing my hurdle I'd feel a lot more comfortable with the phrase totality of circumstances Being plugged into the mix Thank you Rebecca For the record, Rebecca turner from the appellate division office of the defender general. Good morning I want to Jump off of where senator bennings concerns are specifically with this conscious person cannot consent language and then Step back a little bit, but I agree with his interpretation that as proposed now that presents as an absolute No consent scenario that doesn't take into account the moments before Uh, the sleep in terms in terms of whether or not the partner the sleeping partner Consents affirmatively even Expressly as as senator bruce was trying to tease out in terms of we still don't quite know what it takes to satisfy Consent under this, but let's even assume we have affirmative clear unequivocal. Yes. Yes to sexual activity while i'm asleep Under this statute and let's let's say that this is this is a long term relationship buried or not Loving and that this is also Something that is done Is is something that is perhaps that under this statute? It's an absolute cannot cannot consent And so senator bennings concerns are warranted. I also wanted to point this committee To On this question the vermont supreme court was presented with a challenge conviction of sexual assault involving a sleeping complainant and What and the supreme court ultimately affirms that sexual assault conviction? And in that analysis interpreting current law on consent and the requirement of compelled conduct The supreme court took note That there was no indication Before sleeping that the complainant consented again And of course the supreme court also noted that of course a sleeping complainant cannot consent As sort of an obvious sort of truism that if you were asleep, you can't affirmatively And again, again, this is back to the affirmative. Yes consent, right, but if uh But the point of the supreme court's decision and that is state v snow 2013 vt 19 was that consistent with what With what is discussed here, which is considering the totality of the circumstances including before sleeping That that goes into the analysis of whether or not there was consent whether or not the Charged person the defendant knows that there was consent all pieces to the puzzle Explored by our vermont supreme court. So there is case law this the statute departs from that significantly and creates that absolute my ability to worry t-bow attorney t-bow's point that Uh we should take comfort in the prosecutorial discretion to only prosecute offenses where The attorneys involved law enforcement involved has done considerable investigation trust them To exercise their discretion and judgment as to what is a crime Now with all due respect to attorney t-bow and i've discussed this before That is not how we assess the constitutionality of laws that cover Otherwise innocent conduct. I also want to make sure and I know that we've talked about And I still haven't heard An answer as to what is lawful consent Because even if there is an affirmative clear yes beforehand how At what point must that continue right to what extent? but I understand and I see Michelle child has pulled up the comparison of the consent laws to What is referenced has been referenced to federal law, but let's be clear That is a reference to military military law not Uh, not federal criminal law that applies to civilian courts But military law that only applies to military courts and I think that But I think it's important to note that s when h 183 When drafted in the house is my understanding they followed the military federal law. And so that's why it's there I know I don't think there was That that's what the house did Is Thanks, they did and they looked at the other one, but the the title 18 federal law A plot has not been amended since the early to mid 80s and Military has been updated recently They were looking at using title 10 Because it had been had a fresh look rather than being 40 years old is fine And Go ahead Rebecca. Oh, excuse me. I don't I don't question that and I'll take that In terms of the most recent amendment what I wanted to just highlight in terms of stressing why It's significant that this law is being pulled from military law and that civilian law Is that military law has is fundamentally different from law that is developed in the civilian courts fundamentally different Because of the underlying purposes served Five military law and I'm extending that to definitions of crimes And I know and it may seem obvious to to sound that it's different, but I think that It's worth recognizing and we're talking about proceedings that operate in the court martial context Where we don't have independent judges and jurors and the peers and that goes to a procedural side of things But in terms of again the creation of crimes the expanse of creation of crimes the motivation reasons for that is because The military has an has an absolute interest in maintaining a disciplined force And the integrity of military forces. I was reviewing some of the academic Uh journaling on sort of the fundamental differences and why they just don't cross pollinate between the two systems But you know one one here describes it that You know commission of certain offenses in the military Is seen as fundamentally destructive military order and safety And again the emphasis there is not on individual rights and liberty interests, but on maintaining military order and control And therefore I think we have to be extraordinarily cautious when we are considering changing our own states development of jurisprudence of sexual assault laws pulling in from not just federal law military law Again where those definitions are broad I was looking quickly finally. I was looking quickly at that specific military code That michelle siden. I just I read it as title 10 us See section 9 20 not 9 10 There where I was interested to see how to what extent they eliminated mens rea requirement as this proposal does here inserting Knowing or reasonably should have known standard I upon my quick look also saw that the military statute on sexual assault didn't go as far in terms of dropping mens rea so I just wanted to alert the committee to even appreciate Would it be your testimony that this law is not needed? Yes current law protects These cases that this law seems to try to Yes, that current law regarding consent is at it I think that the current law regarding consent is clearer than the proposed law here that Rory, um, did you want to comment on that? I want to respond to one thing. So I think it's the last time I testified. I reminded the committee that um I served for eight and a half years as a united states army judge advocate in prosecuting and defending sex crime cases I think miss turner's assessment of the ucmj particularly with enumerated articles is Wrong First every united states military member is subject to the same constitutional protections as a civilian While there are procedural differences in the system the statutes are applied evenly Reference to good order and discipline refers to only one part of the uniform code of military justice specifically article 134 which requires a showing of prejudice good order of discipline or that discredits the service sex assault murder aggravated assault all common law crimes That are codified under the ucmj are treated commensurate with how state and federal law is treated so that um, I don't think that's a correct assessment Of how this applies what I would also note is that parallel to what vermont and other states have experienced the military about 10 15 years ago began A sexual assault crisis much like what we see on college campuses today a large number of young people in Kind of closed universe with a lot of alcohol available leads to some unfortunately Dire circumstances and a lot of victims being created It was in response to the national uproar and upheaval Over the proliferation of sex assault in the military ranks that led to the united states congress going back and revising These statutes additionally, I would note the ucmj applies not just to uniform service members But also applies to us individuals whether contractors State department officials who are operating overseas or accompanying Uh military members. That's the military justice extraterritorial judicial jurisdictional act So that is applied to civilians as well I would note that the reforms that we see in 10 usc 9 20 were bipartisan Such individuals with a huge stake in the military such as senator mccain senator jill brand from new york Uh senator mc form senator mcaskill and others were instrumental in adopting these definitions upon consideration not only of The modern uh application of these statutes in states Certainly what has been proposed by the house does not go nearly as far as what some other states have done illinois new jersey colorado For example, uh, so I will respectfully disagree with this turner's assessment that we don't need this we're relying on 40 year old uh or more definitions. I think 1977 is what michelle indicated the last time we took a fresh look at how to define consent And again, I think we're in dire need of clarity and a standard Particularly when alcohol is involved and particularly when someone is incapacitated as these are increasingly the types of cases That we see and are forced to reckon with in the court system Thank you. Um michelle With the little time we have left Perhaps you could go over the document that you provided the comparison that I've got to pull it up again on my own Device, um, it's a comparison between federal law and what h183 And I compliment you on all the different colors So, uh, where where is that? It is on our Um on our where is it michelle?  I think it's on our web page You see it? I also I emailed it I emailed it to all of you, uh yesterday Yeah, so we should have it there and if I could compost it It is See that's the nice thing is we have green yellow blue and purple and hopefully uh there's So I was just trying to show to you how um When I was drafting I was pulling the language, um from that And uh, so I have to I guess correct that citation there So, um, you can see on the left the the federal definition of the military code And you'll see there that it and not yellow that it has an expression Of lack of consent through words or conduct means there is no consent And you'll see on the right hand side there in h1883 that's in section 3254 on subdivision two Then the second one on lack of verbal or physical resistance does not constitute consent Um, you'll see is in subdivision one of 3254 Then the next one submission resulting from the use of force threat or force replacing another person in fear Does not constitute consent, which is subdivision three and 3254 and then the final one um A current or previous dating or socials or sexual relationship by itself or the manner of dress Does not constitute consent and then we have uh the reference to that provision in current law um so then Be in the federal you'll see a sleeping unconscious or incompetent person cannot consent and that's in subdivision five and 3254 um I think the the language that's also in b is already uh In with regard to the force provisions under the existing law that we didn't change The one thing as senator sears mentioned Joe said he was interested in is that I didn't pull in there was subdivision seven c there that all the surrounding circumstances are to be considered And whether a person gave consent Which would be the case whether you had that language or not But I certainly understand that just having it there and the statute may provide folks with some greater comfort about that So moving down to the definitions of incapable of consenting So you'll see on the federal level on the left there It's incapable of appraising the nature of the conduct that issue and then in the house first It's incapable of understanding the nature of the conduct issue I did have the same exact language with appraising and after hearing from various witnesses. They decided to use the word understanding instead You'll see that uh on the Um, what's unwillingness? Right, so then if you see an eight b physically incapable um right now you have visit In in current law Which so we're just re redoing that is is is not physically capable of resisting And then the rest in in the 10 b is the same as existing law in in vermont And then you'll see on the last one on 10 c lacks the mental ability to make or communicate a decision about whether to engage in the conduct that issue And that's just a reworking of current law that you have on the books that says the person is mentally incapable of understanding the nature of the act And then another provision that says the person is mentally incapable of resisting or declining consent. And so that's something that we worked through um with some uh with some of the mental health law advocates that were Defying in the house Thank you Good question.  To the yellow so if I leave out words and say an expression of lack of consent through conduct Means there is no consent. So that's said in a negative way, but what it If I read it it says Conduct that Um implies consent is consent Is that I think it's it's I mean it's saying that if you through your conduct so like in joe's scenario um my partner uh Is you know starts loving me up in bed and I Pushes, you know pushes hand away or you know just kind of roll back over and or something like That that's an expression of lack of consent Right, but I'm putting trying to put it the other way so by By my conduct Um, I can't consent Sure, because if if when they do this instead of pushing the person away You open your arms right turn towards the person or you start to engage Then you're you're not saying anything but now right express their interest you turn to them and Right, so my conduct is giving consent. It's yeah, your conduct is giving consent because you're choosing to engage In this I don't I don't have to say I don't have to say yes Right, I can through conduct. Okay, correct. I think I've got a michelle. I really appreciate this And everyone who's been here unfortunately It is now 11 24 and we're due on the floor at 11 30 So I've got to cut this short um But I appreciate everyone being here and hopefully we can take this up again Peggy, can we fit it in next friday? Yes, we can nine o'clock Uh, I thought yeah, well look at your agenda or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, we can do it for a half an hour But I'm gonna be overly ambitious. I'll go ahead. Um I We can go offline You and I can talk about the agenda Peggy. Okay, hold on one second. Um, you're on the floor You all on the floor. Okay. I thank all the witnesses


Library and we'll get rolling here in just a moment. And we welcome you all here today for a series of programs that will be partnering with the San Francisco Department of Environment and this is our first of the series for climate action month we are excited to partner. I love partnering with fellow city departments. And today we're going to do a healthy home workshop. So let's jump in for some announcements from the library I want to welcome you I'm an ESA I am one of the librarians at San Francisco Public Library, and I do a lot of virtual programs. We want to welcome you to the unseated land of the Aloni Romutush tribal people and acknowledge the many Romutush tribal groups as the rightful stewards and the lands in which we work and live here in our beautiful Bay Area. The library is committed to uplifting the names of these communities and to providing amazing book lists and resource and all sorts of amazing reading list about our first person culture and land rights, and all of that stuff that librarians love to make lists about. And I'll put a link to all those things in the chat box after we get going. We also want to acknowledge the and condemn the horrendous violence against Asians and Asians Americans in our communities, our state, and our nation. And we are in stand in solidarity with our neighbors and colleagues distressed and hurt by these attacks. We also want to acknowledge that these events are complicated by the entanglement of anti black and anti Asian stereotypes in the reporting of these acts of violence.  So the library has been working. I want to say all city departments have been but the library has been working extra hard on our racial equity commitment. So you can just Google SFPL racial equity and you would find so much but again I will put something in the chat box after we get rolling. The pandemic's not over and all my library family out there serving as we continue to open our doors at more locations Portola just opened up and more scheduled for that. If you have any library material pickup, please wear your mask and check out Samuel Rodriguez's art on Instagram. Tomorrow, we are doing we are hosting the 16th annual poems under the dome 16 years of open poetry, and this is the second year of it being virtual so let's hope not for a third year. It's an amazing event 4pm and you can find that on our website and, like I said, I'll can put some chat links in soon. Our partnership with the department environment is going to include a couple of healthy homes in Cantonese on April 16 climate change in San Francisco, April 17. This is the Earth Day event with Jane Kim and Thayer Walker of Ink Dwell Studio. If you've ever been in the Tindalline, driving down High Street you will see the amazing huge monarch mural. And these two do amazing work together. And so come check out that event. Healthy homes in Spanish on April 23. A panel about edible food recovery, April 24. And it is we are still celebrating our one city one book which is San Francisco public libraries largest literary campaign. If you have not read Chanel Miller's know my name yet that is our selected book of 2021.  We also get to do amazing programs around the book, our friends of the library sponsors, all sorts of things for us. So on Monday, this Monday coming up. So she he the Simmons Lambda award winner filmmaker director will be coming to show her film. Know the rape documentary. And there'll be a Q&A that follows and so this is a pretty groundbreaking film. It's a decade old now and still groundbreaking so come and check it out. Now we partner with Moad to bring honey, Abduquip in conversation with Ray Lynn Barnes and he just wrote a book he's also a poet and a cultural critic musical critic and has quite a nice library of books that he's written himself. His latest book is a little devil in America, and he will be in Convo, April 28. All right, I am so excited like I said to partner with the San Francisco Department of Environment and today we have Sierra Pringle who will be presenting and Chris on chat who will be helping to answer questions. And I'm turning it over now to Sierra. Hi everybody. Let me share my screen. Sorry. That's good. It's good. Okay, thank you. Hi everybody. My name is Sierra Pringle and I'm here to share with you the safer cleaning and disinfection for a healthy home presentation. I work for the Department of Environment and we're going to talk today about how to identify safer, how to identify cleaning and disinfecting products that are safer for your family's health and just as effective. I will also share simple actions you can do today to safely use whatever cleaning and disinfecting product you buy to improve your indoor air quality and protect the health of your home and your family. So we all deserve to have healthy homes. And we all deserve to have healthy families, especially during this time in COVID-19 from vacuuming to dusting and wiping to sanitizing, cleaning is a big part of our lives. Everywhere we live eventually gets dirty and needs some upkeep and it's unavoidable. Some of us will find it therapeutic while others of us dread it, but it's a part of our lives and frankly it needs to be done to keep a healthy lifestyle. As we all strive to protect our families from COVID-19, we are cleaning and disinfecting more than ever. But many cleaners and disinfectants such as chlorine bleach can cause asthma attacks and people who already have asthma and they can actually cause new asthma cases of asthma and people who didn't have it before. So why does that matter? In 2012, over 80,000 children and adults in San Francisco suffered from asthma and over 32,000 children and adolescents were hospitalized at least once due to asthma. There are many reasons for high asthma rates and using cleaning products that contain bleach and ammonia is one trigger that we can control. And the CDC lists moderate to severe asthma as a risk factor for COVID-19. As part of our Healthy Homes program, we want to let folks know that there are safer effective products to clean and disinfect their homes. We don't want to hurt people, we don't want to hurt ourselves, sorry, in the process of protecting ourselves. If you only remember one thing from our presentations today, I hope will be this, you aren't disinfecting if you don't clean first. First, we're going to talk about cleaners, and then we'll talk about disinfectants. Before the pandemic, I used to think that cleaning and disinfecting were pretty much the same thing, but that's not true. A cleaner is a product that removes dirt, disinfectants don't work on dirty surfaces. Bacteria, fungi and viruses cling to dirt, cling to dirt particles, so the dirt must be removed to reduce COVID-19 transmission. Excuse me, your slide is not advancing. Oh, it's not? It's still on the very first one. Oh, my screen is moving. Maybe I have to change. Oh, resume share, is this working? Yeah, now it's working. Okay, thank you. Okay, so I'll just start on this slide. So, I was saying, I'll just start here, because this is a good point. If you only remember one thing from the presentation, it's to you're not disinfecting if you're not cleaning first. So, first we're going to talk about cleaners, and then we'll talk about disinfectants. So, I was wanting to say that a cleaner is a product that removes dirt and disinfectants don't work on dirty surfaces. Bacteria, fungi and viruses cling to dirt particles, so dirt must be removed to reduce COVID-19 transmission. Just walking into a typical cleaning product aisle, you'll notice that there are hundreds of different products, some with only slightly different sense and colors. We're doubling, when we're doubling our efforts to stay safe and keep our homes and families healthy as we are now, it's important to choose the right cleaning products. But how do you know what products are healthy and safe for your family? Choose cleaning products with these certifications on the label. They're just as effective as other cleaning products, but safer for your family and for you and your family's health. Every ingredient in the products with these labels has been identified and removed by scientists, not just the active ingredient. Cleaning products, although they are effective at removing microorganisms, are not regulated by the US EPA. Oftentimes you'll see words like natural or green to make you think that they're healthier. There is usually no evidence to back up these claims. If you're looking to buy safer cleaning products, look for any of these certifications on the label. The most common certification for household products is the safer choice label on the list. You can also make your own safer cleaning products to keep your home clean and healthy. Since you're cleaning first before disinfecting, why not save money and reduce your family's exposure to enlisted toxic chemicals by making your own cleaners? For example, here's a lemon. Did you know that lemon juices give your home a fresh smell without the man-made chemicals? It also cuts grease. Next we have baking soda, which can serve as a sink cleaner, a deodorizer, and with a brush and some elbow grease, it can remove soap scum. And then we have simple soap and water, which are our best friends for fighting germs. Remember, when you remove the dirt, you remove the germs that stick to the dirt. So in many cases, you don't need bleach or other expensive disinfectants in your home. Whenever you can, buy unscented soap instead of scented soap. The fragrance in many soaps can cause or worsen asthma. Use a microfiber cloth when dusting or mopping or wiping counters. These cloths are reusable in their dust and dirt magnets. They cut down the need for chemicals while cleaning. For example, instead of using a window cleaner, you can simply use water and a microfiber cloth to clean your mirrors and windows. And we've put together some great ideas for you to make your own safer cleaners as part of our Healthy Helms program. You can find them in our website in English, Spanish, and Chinese. And I could leave the links to them in the chat. So we all want to do whatever we can to keep ourselves and our families safer from COVID-19. As a reminder, cleaning is the first step in then disinfecting. If you're not cleaning first, you're not disinfecting. Now we're going to talk about disinfectants. A disinfectant is a chemical that kills things. Because disinfectants are designed to kill things, the EPA requires them to be tested and registered. The process ensures that we know each product is effective and successful at killing the thing that is supposed to. Disinfectants are tested and registered to kill specific viruses and bacteria. EPA then establishes a list of all the disinfectants that are proven to kill each virus. The lists are titled by letters of the alphabet. If you want to kill the COVID-19 virus, then you'll need to look for disinfectants on the EPA's end list. The EPA focuses on disinfecting products and is about effectiveness. But many disinfecting products contain bleach or ammonia and can cause a worsen asthma. Avoid products that contain ammonia, bleach, hypochloride, or strong fragrances. In San Francisco, we want our products to be both effective and safe for our families and for ourselves. So how do we find safer disinfectants? SF Approved is a website that you can go to to find those safer disinfectants. We all know that it can be hard to find a product that you want these days with all the pandemic supply cleaning supply disruptions. So what whatever cleaning or disinfecting product you use, there are some simple actions you can take today to reduce your exposure to toxic chemicals and make your home a safer and healthier place for you and your family. So the number one simple thing you can do is to open the windows or doors to increase the ventilation in your home while you're cleaning and disinfecting. You can also turn on a fan. You can cover or remove food from the immediate area where you're cleaning and or disinfecting. When you disinfect, spend your time on frequently touched surfaces such as your telephones, doors and cabinet handles, railings and other devices and services used by more than one person in your house. Don't just spray and wipe disinfectants. Disinfectants need time to work. Clean dirty surfaces first and then spray disinfectant on a sponge or cloth to apply. Let the surface being disinfected remain for 10 minutes and then wipe away the residue. So don't just spray the product directly on the surface. If you can spray the product into the cloth and then apply it when you spray a product. It puts the chemicals into the air in a form that's easy to breathe and it can cause harm to your lungs. So maybe you've had this experience yourself where you're cleaning your tiles in the bathroom with a tile cleaning type product and you start getting choked up from the fumes. Well, that's an example of respiratory irritation which can increase the severity of COVID-19 illness. Spraying cleaning or disinfecting products into the air to kill viruses like COVID-19 does not work. All it does is put toxic chemicals into the air. And whenever you can look for cleaning and disinfecting products that are packaged in a trigger spray bottle and mark fragrance free. Tiny particles of air sauce spray get deep within the lungs and may and many fragrances can cause an asthma attack. Disinfecting and cleaning products disinfecting and cleaning products even safer products can be dangerous if misuse. It's important to understand and follow the product instructions on the label. So and finally never mix different chemical cleaning and disinfecting products, even safer products together. The chemical ingredients don't always play well together and and some, for example, ammonia and bleach can cause poisonous gas called chlorine that can damage your lungs. So our home is a place where we can control what we do to make ourselves healthier. Did you know that even before the COVID-19 pandemic that average person spent 90% of their times indoors? Or that the concentrations of indoor air pollutants can be two to five times higher than the typical outdoor concentrations? We've talked a lot today about how cleaning and disinfecting products can impact your lungs. But there are other indoor air pollutants that can affect your family's respiratory health. This is especially important during the COVID-19 pandemic. So let's review some common sources of indoor air pollution. So first we have dust and dust mice that can cause at allergic reactions and asthma.  Some molds can even be very dangerous and cause serious health problems and not dealt with right away. And then we have pests like roaches and rodents that are not only annoying, but their droppings and tiny dead body parts become part of the dust that we breathe and can cause serious respiratory problems. So we've already talked a lot today about aerosol cleaning and disinfecting products. But when we use other aerosol products like our hair sprays and oven sprays, these can too create a fine mist of toxic chemicals that we can potentially breathe in and pollute our indoor air pollution. And create indoor air pollution, sorry. The spray chemicals go straight into our lungs when we breathe them. And products that we use to make our home smell nicer often contain combinations of numerous harsh chemicals to produce a nice smell. If you see the word fragrance or if the health warnings like caution on the product label, then the chances are that that product contains chemicals that are not healthy for us. Lastly, without proper ventilation, the fumes from cooking on ourselves are another source of indoor air pollution. So we don't have a lot of time today to go over all the simple actions you can start doing that make a big difference in improving your homes and our air quality and protecting the health of yourself and your family. But you can check out our healthy homes presentation on YouTube and English Spanish or Chinese. Or you can invite me back to share this important message with you another day. So the takeaways in this message is clean first disinfect only touch points not everything. Choose safer disinfectants, follow directions on the product label for dilution time and leave on surfaces to leave on surfaces. Choose cleaners that have the safer choice or green logo on the label. Or green seal. Sorry. Try to avoid clean household cleaning products with bleach, high chloride or ammonia and avoid aerosols and products with fragrance. Now that you've learned about simple actions you can take to keep your home clean and healthy. We need your help share what you've learned with other people in your neighborhood. During the COVID-19 pandemic and after our health is our most valuable asset. Because we all deserve to have healthy homes. And we all deserve to have healthy families. Thank you everyone. This is my contact information if you want to call me about questions. We're going to take we're going to do question and answer and we'll also we'll also do out loud and it will also have question and answer in the chat. There is a brief survey that I hope you guys can take. So we're also post that link in the chat too. Thank you. And I can stop sharing my screen. Thank you. If I could figure out how. Okay, yeah, there you go. Thank you. So we had this let's open it up to questions.  We had one question about scented candles asking if scented candles are bad for indoor air quality. And I mean the answer there is with regard to the sense themselves. We probably know people have all different reactions to sense some people love it and some people just really can't tolerate it. And so we have to be sensitive parting pardon the pun to people's differing reactions to the sense. There are also some chemicals used in perfumes to fix the perfume that aren't are not particularly good for you that can affect have hormonal effects. So, in combination with the smoke itself itself I'd say yeah it's not so great for indoor air quality to have scented candles going. But it's also greatly dependent on individual tastes as well as as far as the sense go. We have a question about what's a healthy and effective way to get rid of ants thanks Preston. The best way to get rid of ants is a combination. Number one, do not, do not go buy a can of pesticide and spray it around your kitchen. You will see a few dead ants on the floor, but it doesn't actually kill the colony yet. Oh it does is release a lot of pesticides into the air of your kitchen. And you can do kill the ants in the kitchen just as effectively with soapy water so soapy water is the key around the house. In the long term they're going to come back, but it does destroy chemical trails they leave on the floor that, you know, they follow each other in those ant trails for the long term. If the if you cannot steal them out of the kitchen or out of the building. So to end up the next best thing is to use various sorts of baits and there are some non toxic or less toxic varieties of baits like boric acid, for example, that are used to really tiny amounts, and the ants take them back to their colony. Actually kills the colony or just weakens the colony and that's that takes about two weeks. So you have to be patient for that question about air filters and air purifiers good idea or waste of money. We were all sort of dealing with that last fall in September when we had that horrible air quality. It's absolutely the air air filters and if you get the right kind. They can definitely improve the indoor air quality and during a forest fire event. It made a big difference for some people. You need to know what you're buying there are there are some recommendations on the Department of Public Health website or the COVID response website SF gov. So, yes, someone just put some. Okay, put some more links in the chat. So anyway, yes, the answer is yes on air filters, air purifiers. Another question is coming up. There's some nice links for upcoming presentations that are in the chat. If anyone wants to unmute and ask that's okay too. Yeah. Now's a good time to let folks know to that they could save this chat with all of these valuable links by going to the chat box and next to where it says file there's three little dots. If you click on those three dots and one of the options will be saved chat. And we'll send a follow up email that contains all sorts of information. What with lots of links. Let's see here. Okay, we have a question about getting rid of rodents. This is a big question folks, but it is really important for indoor health. We recommend starting with prevention very very much or with any pest problem we start with prevention but I think especially with rodents, because it is very possible and feasible to seal them out of your house. If you get rid of the passageways the holes and cracks that they've found to get into the building. And so that is the number one thing to do along with sanitation. Of course, if we have open compost bins or, you know, a even a fruit tree with a lot of fruit on the ground those things can attract rodents. There are some resources on our website on how to how to pass. Sorry, how to prevent pests as a whole set of guidelines on that as a matter of fact, tell you what kind of screen to use and what kind of locations to look for and so forth. So we would, we'd start out with that. I think that for residents using traps is the next option. There's sort of a trick to using traps. I do not recommend baits for residents especially really only for very extreme public health situations and then you call the professional I would say, let's see. We have a question, can you let us know some simple DIY cleaning solutions for the home. Yes, and actually if you look in the chat scroll up the chat we provided a link to the fact sheets that Sierra mentioned.  Thanks, Sierra for posting that. Oh, here's a great one. What's a safe and effective way to remove and prevent mold in the shower grout. So this is someplace where I think Sierra as an example was a really good one.  I mean this is something that is really bad for people with sensitive lungs. So most of the products you find for tile cleaners are based on bleach chlorine bleach. But there are some that are out there and some general purpose cleaners that are based on peroxide and peroxide does work on grout. It is it takes scrubbing like actually the bleach takes some scrubbing as well. But if you can look for peroxide based products. That is a whole lot safer for your lungs than the bleach based products. Let's see, scrolling up the chat. You can you can blurred out a question if you have one you unmute yourself and ask a question if you don't want to enter it in the chat. That's just fine. Here's some Dory Mercado had a question. She said that this person says just curious what's your professional credentials want to get she they want to give us credit in her school report. Sorry, Dory. Thank you. Sorry. So my background is I have a PhD in entomology and bugs so test management is one of my things. And then I lead our green purchasing program at the Department of the environment as well. And I'm the toxics residential associate on at the Department of the environment, and I graduated from college in 2019. I'm 2018 and environmental health. So that's what I that's what I thank you. This is Dory. Yeah. Like I said, I want to give you credit in my discussion board. I'm a DMP student at USF and my DMP project is towards environmental health so maybe I can hook up with either one of you and see how I can, you know, maybe interview you and and give you some credit in my DMP project as well. So thank you. Another question. This is another good question. What do you do to clean a toilet bowl. And so we, we do work with the city custodians a lot on green cleaning programs and products. With toilet bowls, I think I would be correct to say that you can use a general purpose cleaner, most of the time one of the safer cleaners that Sierra was talking about every once in a while a deep cleaning is needed. And I know that there are safer choice toilet bowl cleaners out there as well so you don't, there are specialized toilet bowl cleaners under the safer choice program. For the really, really bad stuff that stains and so forth, you may need an acid based prolet bowl cleaner. They usually have sort of citric or phosphorous acid in them, and that it's a little more hazardous if you get it in your eyes so that's something not to use every day. That's only when you absolutely have to. Let's see, from YouTube is food grade diatomaceous powder safe for pest control. It might be safe, but it's not effective. You need a, there are different kinds of diatomaceous earth out there, and you need to, you need to buy the kind that is a registered pesticide. Some kinds of diatomaceous earth that are have a different shapes and so they don't affect the insects as much as the, the insecticide style diatomaceous earth which has little spikes on it, they're, they're fossilized plankton, and they, they break the skin of the insect and the insect dies from dehydration way it works so I would say no food grade diatomaceous powder if it's not labeled as a pesticide to kill some of these, then you shouldn't, shouldn't try that. I hope that answered your question, Anissa, or from YouTube, I guess it was. Let's see ants inspires are common to see inside the home but is silverfish a common insect to see as well. Yes, silverfish are really common in homes. In the past, in terms of being visible or causing damage they, they can cause some long term damage on certain things, for example, silverfish and some related insects really like certain kinds of starchy materials, like you might find in an old book, book glue or in wallpaper paste. And they, in the long term they might cause a little bit of damage, but they tend to hide better than the others and they are not a public health risk in any way. Either. Let's see, well, that's a great questions here. A question from Reginald, what's the best way to check for mold inside a home aside from visual inspection are all molds visible. So we actually on this one I want to defer to our Department of Public Health. They have some information on talk what they call toxic smoke toxic mold, and how to detect it I believe that there are some detection kits that are available in hardware stores, I'm not sure about that so I, I'm going to punt on that one and say, ask you to check the public health mold resources and well maybe if I can find it before this is over we can put in a link in the chat. I have a question, how do you get rid of fruit flies and the answer is you have to get rid of their food. And it's not just fruit. They can, they're very tiny little insects and they can, if you just have straight crumbs here and there. They sit for a few days. That can be food for them. So, usually they'll come up if you haven't watched some bins recycling bins for example or compost bins frequently enough only takes a few days for them to lay eggs and start hatching out so it is important to do regular sanitation. There's nothing else really. There's no spray or any magic bullet for fruit flies other than cleaning things up. So, how to better clean vegetables and fruits. So, there are Wendy I think maybe referring to some of those specialized vegetable and fruit washes that are out there. My understanding a safe, you know, a non toxic soap Castile soap is just as effective as those rather expensive vegetable and fruit washes. And if you're washing it well the soap is not going to be on the surface in any care in any case so this is kind of a personal opinion but I don't, I don't recommend the spending the money on the specialized fruit washes. Oh, great. We have a link for the public the mold remediation program that has been posted in the chat. So have a look at that. Okay. Those of dead batteries. Okay, this is a little bit little bit off topic but you put in a.  I will not go. Yeah, go ahead.  They don't take back car batteries guys, just regular batteries, like the ones that they're still but they're still doing the bin top is that correct Sierra. They're doing the bin top. They're still doing the bin top. So, yeah. Thank you. Any other questions here. And thank you Maggie posted the link for recycle where.org this is the general solution for any questions about recycling where to recycle different sorts of things. As every cycles.org. Oh boy. How do you dispose of car gas that's in containers. I'm turning that over to you Maggie and Sierra. Yeah, I would turn that over to Maggie. I have a question like that. I'm typing in the chat. Oh, you are okay. Yeah, so that is it. That's a hazardous material. You can't just put it in the trash, obviously. Maggie's going to give you a detailed answer in the chat. She's much more well acquainted with the waste issues. Let's see. The recording of this workshop be available on YouTube. I think the answer is yes. Correct. Yeah, we go. Correct. We streamed on our on the public library YouTube channel. As will the Spanish and Cantonese versions. Thank you. We do have some more links I think we're going to be posting right Sierra before we close up. We do have more links. Oh, here we go. Make Maggie Johnson has answered your question about the gas. I would dispose of gasoline disposal. I was thinking. There is a link to the healthy homes presentation about indoor air pollution. And that is also on YouTube and English Spanish and Chinese and I could put the links for all the for that presentation. It's it's different from this presentation. It has more about indoor air pollution in it. And I could put the link to that presentation in the chat here if anybody wants to look at that at another time. Is a question I get tiny flies in my house plants. Any way to deal with that.  But the most common tiny flies would be fungus gnats they live on fungus in the soil and the solution to that. And the solution is to water less water let it let the soil dry between waterings. And you might have noticed fungus on the surface of plants. I'm sorry in the surface of the soils. Sometimes that's what they like to eat. So, if you can adjust your waterings that will sometimes solve it for you. There's no real chemical solution that I know after that one that you would want to use. Doing great questions today. Amazing everyone is awake Saturday morning ready to ask questions. What's the difference. You have a question what's the difference between the safer choice certification and design for the environment. So, safer choice is what you look for when you're looking for cleaning products if you're a consumer going into a grocery store. You're looking for something safer in regular cleaning products not disinfectants. You look for the safer choice logo you can also look up on their website and I think we might have some links for that we can post. So, there are a lot of different kinds of products covered by safer choice it's run by the US EPA. It's a trusted program. Design for environment is run also by the US EPA and that actually what they used to call safer choice. And right now you will not see them use that term except for certain disinfectants. So, if when you look on our website at the lists of safer disinfectants, you'll see some of them marked as being designed for the environment disinfectants. That's the closest thing we have to a certification or you know an eco label showing that these are safer products for disinfectants we don't have you won't find other eco labels on disinfectants it's hard to know what's green and what's not. So that's why we made the website to help you with that. And yes, so design for the environment is what we used to call safer choice. Now it's just used for disinfectants and there are just a few of them actually certified for design for the environment. Excuse me. Oh my goodness. Okay, we got lots of great questions here. All right, safe products for weeds on public concrete stairs between two streets. So, if it's public area. Well, first of all, we as members of the public should never be using any pesticides on public property. Round upon and Yeah, but if it's something that you're taking on for maintenance. The first choice of course is to do it mechanically get a screwdriver and get them from between the wheat from between the slabs of concrete. That's a lot of work. I used to do that when I was a kid. But our public employees use for these spaces. If they use anything. They would use something that is kind of similar to a dilute vinegar or to a certain kind of soap that makes the plant that green parts of the plant die. And it's not a something that goes into the plant it's not anything carcinogenic doesn't cause cancer. It's not like round up. Or some of these more powerful or besides so if they do control with chemicals they usually use those kinds of non toxic products. They occasionally also will do weed flaming, maybe not on public stairs but in other sort of concrete areas. There are devices that they walk very quickly across the area with this flame and it causes the plants to wilt back. So and that's sometimes used in the parks. Excuse me. Sorry. How do you permanently have a question. Yes, go ahead. Go ahead. Oh. No, it's not about carpet bugs. I have little, I have little tiny moths. They wouldn't be more than they're like between an eighth of an inch and a quarter of an inch, and they're dark brown. And at first I thought they were coming from the carpet, but then I thought they were coming from plants and now they're just, I mean they're just a few here and there and I just, I squished them with my fingers, but I don't know what they are I can't get rid of them. I don't want to use anything on them. What are they just work. You said they're for that size. Oh no. You know what I would suggest there's a bunch of resources for this sort of thing with the University of California that help you identify these sort of mystery bugs that show up in your house. I don't know what you've described it makes me want to ask how close it is to your kitchen, because there are some dark beetles that maybe about that size that would feed on flour and grains. You know, they started in my, they started in my bedroom. Oh really okay. Yeah, where I have plants, I have plants, where you have plants, and I have a carpet. It's really impossible to tell without seeing them. If it started with the plants are you might look to see if it's something that was feeding on the plants because they're, you know, that's quite possible they just strayed from their plants. Well when I water, when I water a plant they come from the soil. So, I don't know. All right. Well, yeah. Maybe. Sorry. I water the plants with soapy water, and I think I'm killing them but then they pop up again. Okay, we can move on. That's all right. Thank you. I would check out the University of California statewide. Well, I'll post the link I'll post the link statewide integrated pest management program they have a whole bunch of resources to identify. Thanks. Thank you. Okay. Thanks a lot. Someone asked, is hydrogen peroxide generally the best choice for disinfecting a disinfectant a registered disinfectant product that has hydrogen peroxide as the main ingredient. They can be very effective just as effective as any of the traditional disinfectants actually they use them in hospitals. They are quite effective. But if by hydrogen peroxide you mean the kind you buy in the drug store. You can't recommend that as a disinfectant it certainly will kill germs, but it hasn't been tested in these situations as a cleaning product. And there are other ingredients that they use in the cleaning product versions that make it more effective and make it last longer. So, you mean drug store of peroxide. I wouldn't rely on that as a disinfectant I would buy always look for a registered disinfectant in the store. Let's see. Being outside which is the best hand I think it means hand disinfectant hand sanitizer alcohol hydrogen peroxide.  And of those, you know the alcohol ones, what I would look for with ethyl ethyl or isopropyl alcohol. Those are recommended by the Centers for Disease Control. They are low toxicity. And they work just fine. I don't think I would stray from the alcohol products personally. Oh, I see the follow up for that question that comes in an opaque container. Yes, that's because I think you were you were Christina you were talking about drug store hydrogen peroxide probably. And that I wouldn't recommend that. So, let's see, Sierra, am I missing any here? Yeah, the last one I see is how do you permanently, how do you permanently get rid of carpet bugs? Are there better cleaning products? Maybe they would say safer cleaning products for carpet. Maybe there are safer choice carpet cleaning products as well. So, if you're looking for the safest products, I would look for safer choice again. You can look on their website and I think we distributed that link. For carpet bugs and that's probably you mean carpet beetles, which are some very tiny sort of round model looking beetles. They are called domestics and they feed on various kinds of organic matter in or under the carpet. And there are some, first of all, a lot of vacuuming and cleaning is important for that. There are also some powders that you can use that are non toxic sort of a silica gel or diatomaceous earth type powder. If it's a really bad infestation and you have for example a rug that you can get where you can get this underneath the rug. That could be helpful also, but really it's a lot about vacuuming very frequently. And often they pop up when a carpet has gotten wet also. Anyone who's been in a flood knows this. They will get a lot more of the beetles popping up from different sorts of cloth. So, make sure it's all dried out. Let's see what else do we have. Not seeing any new questions. If anyone on the line would like to just blur it out a question you're welcome to. We're coming down to the last few minutes it looks like. Oh yeah, and Sierra has just posted the safer choice certified link in the chat so you can find certified products ahead of time. And that's a good way to go. It's important to notice that for whatever reason there are some safer choice certified products that don't have the safer choice logo on it. I don't know why this is. So it is a good idea to look at the website if you are a better planner than I am about your shopping. Look at the website first. You have another question about ants so I did, I did cover ants earlier, but the summary was don't don't buy sprays to use indoors use soapy water to wipe them up indoors. And if you need further control. We don't have any more questions from YouTube either but lots of thank yous. Chris you're muted. If you are speaking. How's that. There we go. We're back. We're back. I think we have answered. I'm coming back on high. We've answered lots of questions today, and very amazing thank you for answering all of the questions that came through I love when presenters do that. And audience thank you for having all those robust questions and YouTube we thank you as well. As we mentioned a couple times this event will be on the San Francisco public libraries YouTube for future viewing. And we do have a nice series with the SF department of environment for the month of April which is climate action month. So, please come back. Sierra, Chris, Maggie SF Department of environment we thank you all for being here today. And let's go enjoy this beautiful Sunday we have outside Saturday, Saturday. What day is it. Thank you. All right friends. Thank you. Thank you. Don't forget. Yeah, you can save the chat by clicking on the three dots and will. Oh, did you put your survey in. I think you guys all the way at the top but I can scroll and get it and put it at the, put it at the end. Okay, and we can also we'll send a follow up email to folks that lists, lots of links and lots of ways to get to us, but definitely take our survey that's what helps us form what programs we do and how we best serve our community. Thank you friends. Thank you. Everyone. Thank you. Bye bye.