Welcome everyone to our final session in the Graphic Landscape program. We're just going to wait a minute or two longer and see that people are joining us as I speak. So we'll wait a minute or two longer before we get started in earnest. So if you can be patient with me and with us, that would be much appreciated. Yeah, just to say that we're still waiting and watching as people join the seminar or the webinar, and we'll wait a tiny bit longer before we start in earnest when we can see the numbers seem to have reached a good total. Great, I think we'll start. So welcome everyone. So nice to see so many of you joining us today. I'm Mark Hallett, Director of the Paul Mellon Centre for Studies in British Art, based in London, of course. And today I'm delighted to be co-chairing the last of the four sessions that have made up our online webinar program Graphic Landscape, the Landscape Print Series in Britain 1775, 1850. Now I'm delighted to be co-chairing this session alongside my co-convener, the person who helped me and worked, well, two of us worked together in shaping the series, and my co-convener Dr Felicity Myron, who is Lead Curator of Western Prints and Drawings at the British Library. So today's session is entitled A Wider View from Empire to Collaboration. Well, from Collaboration to Empire, and notice, sorry about that, the wrong way around. But before we start in earnest, we thought it'd be helpful to provide some basic information about today's event, which is slightly different, not only in its timing, but its format to earlier iterations of the program. So if we can have the next slide with the housekeeping, that would be great. So today's webinar will consist of two sessions of two 15-minute papers. So we have four papers in total today. We'll have a 15-minute Q&A after each pair of papers. And after the first of our sessions, so after the first two papers, there'll be a short five-minute comfort break. And the webinar will end with a 15-minute panel discussion where we hope to reflect not only on the material we've heard today, but on the series as a whole. And then audience members can type questions using the Q&A function. And as I said, we've built lots of time in for question and answers. So please, even as you're listening to a paper, whether it's by Sarah or Doug, Eleonora, Alisa, and even the middle of a paper that you've wanted, that question comes to your mind, feel encouraged to ask a question in the Q&A, not to wait necessarily to the Q&A sessions and cells before putting in your proposal. And then I'll be able to field those questions to the speakers as you ask them in the Q&A period. So we've recorded and made available to the public, and then finally closed captioning is available, just click the CC button on your screen to enable captions. So a packed schedule as you can see. So rather than spending more time in an introduction, I think we really need to turn to our speakers. So without further ado, I'm delighted to turn to our first speaker, who's Sarah Molden, curator of 19th century collections at the National Portrait Gallery. As in the case of our other three speakers, Sarah's bio and all her details are available to read on our website on the page devoted to this event on our website. So please read all about her many achievements and distinctions there. I won't go into any detail now. Instead, I'll ask simply to turn over, I'll turn over to Sarah and ask her to give her paper which is entitled creative collaboration, Cotman's Norfolk Etchings. Over to you, Sarah. Thanks, Mark, and thanks Felicity for the invitation to this amazing conference that's been going on these past two weeks. And also thanks to the PMC team, which have been amazing and like going through technological sort of revolutions here. So thank you so much to Sean and everyone. Right, I'm just going to share my screen. There it is. I hope you can all see this. Let's start the slideshow. Okay, I'll crack on. So in 1811, John Selcottman began to scale down dramatically the watercolor practice for which he's now best known, and instead focused almost entirely on printmaking. When taught himself to etch he produced an astonishing number of prints, notably the 365 plates on the architectural antiquities of East Anglia and of Normandy that he published in six sumptuous volumes over the next 11 years. This period coincides with the decade long resident residency in the Norfolk seaside town of Great Yarmouth. There, Cotman receives the formal patronage of local luminary banker and well known antiquary Dawson Turner to whose family Cotman teaches drawing. Turner finances at least two of Cotman's most ambitious volumes, the first being the architectural antiquities of Norfolk produced on a speculative basis between 1812 and 1818, and which forms the focus of my talk today. Now the traditional view that Cotman is little more than Dawson Turner's draftsman during this time has now been refuted. But there is still the tendency to compare Cotman's etchings unfavorably with his earliest watercolors, his prints visual characters seen as having been largely prescribed by an exacting banker Turner, and thus leaving little room for his own artistic agency. What I'm proposing in this paper is that the Norfolk publication actually stems from a really interesting collaboration between Cotman and Turner. Both men took a playful approach the antiquity rich landscape of their home region and valued a spirited graphic treatment of those antiquities. Their collaboration and the visual effects that resulted can be situated I think between within contemporary debates on historical knowledge and its production, which I'll also focus on in the latter part of my paper. But first before we do any of that what was this architectural antiquities of Norfolk. Well, the idea for it comes in the summer of 1811 when Cotman's finishing up on his first etched volume called the miscellaneous etchings. Like that volume he publishes the Norfolk one himself, releasing 10 installments of six tapes each and about 12 sheets of letterpress between 1812 and 1818 so 60 altogether and they pretty much all represent local medieval buildings medieval buildings in Norfolk. And Cotman is guided by Turner in selecting what both considered to be key examples of their type within the Norfolk landscape. This election is based not so much on these buildings historical import but as Cotman puts it on their curious appearance. The publication is therefore less a survey of Norfolk's buildings than one giving primacy to taste for details to fragments and to visual variety. And it's also a work that provides the viewer with different views of a familiar subject so sometimes you get multiple plates showing different parts of one building and will focus on one of those two of those in a minute. That emphasis on the familiar on places that can actually be visited and really looked at in person is super important to the prince claims to authenticity. All the text in the Norfolk volume was written anonymously by Dawson Turner, who seems to have volunteered himself onto Cotman's project in 1812 as its patron advisor and letterpress author. But none of this is made clear in the volume itself. In fact, the letterpress is written as if by Cotman in the first person with lots of eyes. I feel that and other attestations to first hand experience. In contrast, Cotman's name is all over the volume. It's emblazoned on the frontispiece, and each prince inscriptions states very clearly that he drew, etched and published the plates, thus outwardly positioning him as the works soul producer he actually describes himself in the prospectus he produces in 1911 as author. The anonymity may seem perplexing, particularly in a talk which is about collaboration. But I think actually it shows him as a distinctly modern kind of patron, the enlightened silent facilitator who has no need to claim the limelight or determine what the work would look like. For the simple reason that he was already a part of it, reaping the benefits of its cultural and intellectual return. Let me explain why when Cotman moves from Norwich to Yarmouth in 1812 to be the drawing master for Turner's family, or at least that's as it seems, as it first seems, he receives an annual salary of some 200 pounds, which is a pretty hefty amount for what actually ends up being a two day a week post the rest of the days for as Cotman calls it leisure, and also for working on this extremely important to him, volume the architectural antiquities of Norfolk. It's also possible that this salary of the 200 pounds incorporated some kind of commission from Turner. Besides seven copies of the volume that he requested from Cotman Turner also received the artist's original etched proofs to compose a unique autograph presentation copy which is quite spectacular, and it's now held in the British Museum. Cotman had met Turner about eight years earlier when he was 24 and the banker 31, which is when he penciled this slight profile portrait of Turner on the right here. The subsequent correspondence of which a tonne survives across the world in public and private collections shows that both these guys reveled in the provisional nature of history. In Turner's words they took pleasure in the fragmentary quality of knowledge attained through curiosity, rather than strict method. The archive shows that both men favored a free and lively approach to the representation of landscape and its antiquities. So what I'm proposing here is there's this kind of synchronicity between Cotman and Turner whereby each is subscribing to an approach to the past which is more often conjectural, subjective and open to interpretation rather than political, objective and accurate in the kind of strictest sense of the word. And it's this I think that can be located in the Norfolk volume. In early 1812, as Cotman was preparing to release his first installment of the Norfolk. He wrote to Turner concerning these two etchings of Walterton Manor in East Barton. Cotman calls it East Barton House, which is a Norfolk. These have recently been published by the Society of Antichrists. These etchings were made by James Besire the Younger after drawings by the architect John A. D. Repton, who was the son of Humphrey Repton. Cotman says, and I quote, I cannot help noticing that Mr. Repton's plates of Varsham House are very vile things. I expected very much better at least correctness from an architect. But what Repton had gone wrong, it seems in Cotman's eyes, was in giving the Manor House a level of finish where Cotman went on, none was meant and altering that which he couldn't understand. In other words, because Repton hadn't actually gone there, he didn't know the place and therefore couldn't offer an authentic image. A few days earlier, Cotman had complained to Turner in another letter about another representation of Norfolk antiquity by Norwich artist Henry Ninham. And he says, how very often is very, very bad drawing, crude outline neither rotundula, which I think he means sort of roundness, nor squareness, given to represent a thing that the utmost delicacy and judgment is necessary in. In both of these remarks to Turner then Cotman implies that correct representation of buildings in the landscape is inhibited by excessive outline or overly finished draftmanship. Instead, his version of correctness was to be achieved through close and patient study of a building separate parts, shapes and details however ruined, affording a fuller more three dimensional understanding of its whole. Turner agreed writing incognito in the Norfolk's letterpress that clear views on architectural facts can only be attained by much study and scrupulous attention to detail, quote, and what's exercising Cotman in his rather cantankerous remarks can be illustrated by comparing his own etchings which I'll show in a moment of Walterton at East Barton. With besides plates after reptons drawings so here. We see Messiah after rep and present retin presenting a quite a neatly and tightly etched image, which places the building at a distance from the viewer, whose eye level is that of a passing rider. The perspective allows a slightly elevated and general view of the building while clearly positioning us within the surrounding landscape, our site line only disrupted by the oblique wedge of road in the one image and the fence on the other. In the other, from here we get an overall impression of the building's intricate masonry turrets and chimneys. In contrast, Cotman's own etchings of East Barton house which were plate. You've got plate 60 on the left and plate 29 on the right. They provide us. Sorry, they offer us proximity in detail to two partial fragments of the building's facade. Providing the eye with plentiful visual stimuli, a wall creeper crumbling mossy masonry between the turrets a boarded up window and signs of a disheveled interior or signs of architectural rumination that signify the past. Unlike Messiah Cotman emphasizes the building surface textures with deeply bitten marks that are considerably more vigorous irregular and assorted in their thickness and alignment. There is a cross crossing on the walls the broken line of the cylindrical chimney breast, the wrinkled pattern of the wooden window boards, and the scribbled shapes of the pockmark stone and brickwork. These fill the plates with multiple graphic effects that bear a stark stylistic similarity to Cotman's preparatory pencil drawings. We invite the viewer to engage with the very process of etching itself and by extension to imagine Cotman's spirit, the artist spirit and his experience. At ground level Cotman includes conspicuous figures who unlike Messiah's tiny inanimate livestock are shown interacting with the house which we are told in the letter presses now partially occupied by a farmer. On the left, for example, which shows south front and the east end of Bartram House East Bartram House, a woman carrying a jug and swaddled infant appears to have just exited through a small door. And in the one on the right, another woman seems to have rested her firewood against the building side while she carries another bundle above her head and walks away with a companion and they're met by three friendly canine friends. These figures help us to imaginatively reconstruct the physical experience of being right there, of watching everyday life unfold amidst the structures of the past. Cotman's decision to include his Pyreneesian figures also implies though shouldn't be taken to indicate that such mundane forms of everyday experience unfolded right before him as he recorded Norfolk's medieval landscape. This reinforces the publication's claims to accuracy and knowledge while also granting the viewer us imaginative access into the life of the scenes. By setting up an opposition between Cotman and Messiah's Prince I don't want to suggest that Cotman somehow presents us with like a better or correct image and of course he would disagree and say that he does do that. Instead Cotman's Prince make artistic claims beyond those are conventional antiquarian images, and they're able to do so, despite appealing to the same antiquarian market, because the forms of accurate representation of the past were by no means decided at this state. The definition and systematization of history as a discipline were still very much in their infancy in the early 19th century. Questions about the past were open to debate and speculation, while historical practice enjoyed a relatively lively treatment of its surviving sources. As Sam Smiles calls it a rhetorical performance almost a form of fictional realism. While images were recognized as valid research tools capable of presenting a useful record of what their makers saw their imaginative potential was not lost on those participating in the archaeology of historical knowledge. Sam Smiles reminds us images and their makers quote, possess the power, not simply to record but to invent and as such to attempt the retrieval of cultures that have vanished. In what Stephen Bann has termed the antiquarian attitude to the past, the imagination was understood to go hand in hand with historical scholarship, enabling fresh approaches to the problem of visualizing the past. Thus, while the 1810 saw a move, a more active move in some circles towards classifying and mastering the past namely London Society of Antiquities, a fluid and playful language of antiquarian discourse was still widespread at the time of Cotman and Turner's collaboration. When first encountered Turner's letterpress text appears quite brief and dry, but when read more attentively and critically, you can see this playful approach coming through. In one part, for example, he asked us again anonymously to read his classifications of architectural styles and dates quote, only as a sketch because he says they rest only on conjecture. And thus fully sensible of its probable inadequacy to convey distinct notions, and I also feel that nothing of the kind can be otherwise. Turner's implying here that openness and conjecture were the only ways to represent the past for modern audiences. His approach also invokes the reader viewer who is in dress not only as a recipient of knowledge, but as an enlightened peer participating in its position, one conversant with a sort of self-reflexive mode of writing, which admits both the possibilities and the limits of chronicling the past. Cotman was similarly frank about the volumes open and imaginative approach to history and the prospectus to the publication, which as I say he publishes in 1811. He says although it will be the principal object of the author to exhibit faithfully these styles of the various structures, he will not be inattentive to the selection of the most favourable points of view. Being persuaded, it will be the wish of his subscribers to see architectural fidelity combined with picturesque effect. The picturesque effect is visible in the profusion of details in Cotman's East Barsham house prints, yet these details also bolster the volumes claims to authenticity by acting as a sort of Bartian reality of effect. If Cotman expressed skepticism about the correctness of Repton's approach who gave quote, finish where none was meant. I also suppose that what he judged incorrect was the clean sheet of unpopulated landscape and the stylistic completion of his images. For Cotman, authenticity was in the detail and detail implied close looking and doing so in person. Cotman's Norfolk etchings are openly performative. Truth is to be found in the performance of their own production. This is done technically and somatically, technically in that the vigorous marks and textures call to mind the artist's own hands and his images status as etchings. And somatically in that the reader viewer is encouraged to rehearse the very process of exploring and happening upon a different angle or unusual aspect of a building in the landscape. Cotman's etchings were meant to incite a desire to go and look. Even John Britton who himself had published an etching of the East Barsham house in his own architectural antiquities of Great Britain, and which incidentally Cotman called the prince called the prince most unpartedly incorrect. Britain admitted, admitted to Turner, to Torsten Turner that Cotman's etchings have excited my curiosity to see and examine, enthused by Cotman's prince in particular the vigor and the looseness that he was able to achieve. Britain subscribed to several copies of the antiquities of Norfolk and sold them from his tapestock place premises in London. Right, so to finish. The last of the installments of the Norfolk volume is published in January 1818, and the whole work gets passing but positive mentions in the periodical press. The critic for the gentleman's magazine described them as being drawn and etched in a clear, free and spirited style by Mr. Cotman, who by their execution has evinced very considerable abilities. The works were picked up by the new monthly magazine who noted Cotman's spirited and intelligent manner, which so conspicuously marks his productions. The lack of more substantial national reviews, however, suggests that the work was being circulated more privately within antiquarian circles, and in the upper echelons of Norfolk society. And certainly, the archive suggests that Turner was promoting and selling Cotman's publications, not this one but others that he was producing around the same time within his own networks. The fact that he did this that Turner did this sort of enabled Cotman to engage only lightly with the market and therefore work in a relatively safe zone between art and business. For all the correspondence that exists though, there's actually little evidence concerning the immediate financial outcome of the work. But by publishing the volume himself using professional publishers only as his booksellers, Cotman could potentially retain most of the profits himself. In terms of his liberal persona, Cotman told his friend that he felt it was a success gaining him he wrote credit in the world and access to many of the first men in London. And so, when read more attentively, I think that we can see that the architectural antiquities of Norfolk grew out of a particular kind of supportive relationship, a like minded attitude and a creative collaboration between an artist and a patron. Thank you. Thanks so much Sarah. That was such a great introduction to this series and to the collaboration between Turner and Cotman and to those images. It'd be great to return, return to those in our question and answers. And now I can. I'm really happy to turn to our second speaker. And that's Eleanor Neumann, who's a PhD candidate at the University of Virginia, and Eleanor's papers entitled translet translating topography women and the publication of a publication called landscape illustrations of the Bible 1836 so very much looking forward to your paper Eleanor. Thank you Mark. Thank you again Mark and Felicity for convening this conference and to Shawna and everyone at the Paul Mellon Center. It's a real pleasure to be here on the final day and to follow such fantastic papers. And I'd also like to thank Ruth Hibbard and the staff at the Victorian Albert Princeton drawing study room for their help. I will go ahead and get started. In September 1833, Mariah Graham wrote to her friend Selena Bracebridge asking her to send a total of 41 views from Palestine and Lebanon. Graham was an accomplished artist and a sub established travel writer who authored accounts that were mostly illustrated with prints after her own landscape drawings. The younger Bracebridge and accomplished artist in her own right was planning a trip with her husband to the Middle East from their home in Athens. Graham reached out as part of her editorial work for the print series landscape illustrations of the Bible, which was published by John Murray between 1834 and 1836, leading painters of the day embellished original drawings done on the spot, which were then translated into print. And though Graham was not formally credited at the time archival evidence reveals her as one of the central figures in a vast network that brought this ambitious project to fruition. The list of views seen here is the copy that Graham sent to Murray, including her aside that a view of Salonica or Thessaloniki Greece was quote much wanted you told me. The exchange between Graham and Bracebridge that this letter has preserved is noteworthy because it contradicts our understandings of the British female amateur artist working in the early 19th century. It was not to break the mold, rather than exclusively sketching domestic landscapes as a private and polite pastime. Graham shaped landscape scape production through her work with a publisher and Bracebridge drew sites with biblical associations that were explicitly for publication. And six of those sketches were ultimately selected and embellished by David Roberts and James Duffield Harding, the prince after which can be seen here and I'll return to one of these at the end of my presentation. I had landscape illustrations of the Bible through my larger project on Graham so today I'll continue to follow that line of inquiry though there is much more indeed that could be said about such a fascinating print series. While Graham's travels to India, Italy, Chile and Brazil in the first part of the 19th century opened up space for her to develop and expand her landscape practice, all the while carefully navigating landscapes highly gendered terms. This appears to have diminished upon her return to the competitive London art world. She sought out instead new modes of cultural production, including a range of work for the preeminent preeminent publishing house of John Murray. Through Graham and Bracebridge we can begin to piece together a slightly fuller picture of how women both consumed and produced landscape print series. We heard women gifted loaned and purchased serial prints that they used in a variety of ways. We heard from Kate Redford earlier in the conference about how Caroline Wiggett used landscape prints in the print room of the Vine at Hampshire. In another example related to Jillian Forester's presentation that I really wish I had more time to discuss today. She engaged with Turner's Libre studio room as a didactic tool. Prior to departing for Italy in 1818 Graham wrote to Murray about obtaining a set of the Libre directly from Turner. He presumably shared it with her after they became friends in Rome, since Graham relied on the Libre as a model when picturing the landscapes of Brazil and Chile for her to travel locks. After their consumption of landscape print series women also produced them in a range of media similar to the one by Amelia Long that we heard about from James Finch's talk. Graham made at least two lithographic landscape series of Italy for private circulation amongst family and friends an example of which can be seen on the right. And as we'll see today women also contributed to publish landscape print series that circulated amongst a bunch of much broader readership, and this is not something that we know as much about. In Bracebridge both contributed sketches of their own to landscape illustrations of the Bible and Bracebridge went on to publish her own printed panoramas. Even though traces of Graham's editorial work were ultimately erased from the publication credit was given to all the artists of the original drawings. And this suggests that their contributions were valued, and that their status was elevated to something more like collaborators in the production of these prints. So this is really interesting questions about who possessed and who claimed the authority to witness and represent certain subjects truthfully in this period that will have to address another time. Landscape illustrations of the Bible was conceived by John Murray and it was at his behest that Graham gathered landscape sketched on the spot by artists who traveled throughout the Holy Land. Murray boasted of collecting over 300 sketches in total. These were the only women whose sketches were selected to be embellished and then translated into print by William and Edward Finden. In 1834 Murray published the first edition of 32 plates titled the biblical keepsake, and on 96 plates were published together in two volumes as landscape illustrations of the Bible in 1836 descriptions drawn from various sources were composed by the Rev. Reverend Thomas Hartwell Horn and included in both editions. So how did the involvement of the three biggest names, JMW Turner, Augustus Walcock it who was also Graham's second husband, and Clarkson Stanfield, with more artists getting involved as publication progressed. Each of these artists contributed to the first set of four views seen here, the rest of which were to be published in 24 monthly parts. A letter to Murray Calcutte wrote that an arrangement was necessary to quote, ensure an equal appropriation of the better subjects between Turner and myself, which he felt would be best done by quote, each having an opportunity of carefully looking over the sketches, and then alternating, taking our choice of subjects. Spawning to a growing taste for biblical scenes that began around 1800 largely thanks to the publication of a new illustrated Bible by Thomas Macklin. After 1770 religious paintings were also made with greater frequency, which Martin Myrone argues can be partly explained at least by the growing influence of the evangelical revival and also a confidence in Britain's growing empire. It was of course John Martin who developed the large scale biblical landscapes that ignited the popular imagination in the first half of the 19th century, culminating in canvases such as the Plains of Heaven from the last judgment series, which is seen here on the right. By the 1830s scholars had begun to treat the scriptures as a historical record that was open to interpretation, which only reaffirmed a continued interest in the actual appearance of the Holy Land. This was during this moment that Murray launched landscape illustrations of the Bible. He had a clear competitive advantage to, despite a very saturated market, which was stated in the prospectus quote, the peculiar value consists in there being matter of fact views of places, as they now exist, taken on the spot and not fictitious pictures made up from prints in the book of travels nor imaginary representations. Biblical illustrations were typically narrative scenes. These illustrations represented the landscape for those events supposedly transpired. As such they could be read either as sacred or profane, thereby appealing to everyone from the antiquarian to the devout, whose faith would be reaffirmed by viewing places mentioned in the prophecies that quote, in their present ruined and desolate condition so completely exemplify everything which was foretold. As for this dual purpose that Murray went to such great lengths to secure drawings that prove the authenticity of the final product. To ensure the widest appeal the illustrations were sold at a reasonable price and were available in different five different sizes to be bound in different editions of the Bible, or to be bound together. This was made possible by the use of steel engraving which greatly reduced overhead and seen here two examples from the British library printed in different sizes and distinctly bound. Both volumes of the 1836 edition included table outlining the contents. There was a long tradition of British travel books that organize views of the Mediterranean and Middle East by location, yet here the travel book has been reorganized into a biblical structure that follow the books of scripture. Each table includes the scriptural citation title, the name of the artist who did the original sketch and the name of the painter who produced an embellished drawing. While working from secondary sources was an established method for professional artists what's notable here is the explicit ref credit given to the artist who produced the original sketches, including women. Again Bracebridge contributed six sketches and Graham contributed one, the table that's allowed readers to fully grasp this division of labor or the translation from the original sketch to the embellished drawing. Take for example these drawings of sardis one sardis one of the seven churches, the original sketch by an otherwise unknown Mr. Mod on the left depicts the remaining columns from the temple of Artemis. Clarkson Stanfield closely adhered to mods original composition, but it added the kneeling figure and kicking horse as well as the quote high key color highlighting a technical effects, representing local conditions of white atmosphere and climate that was not even a quiz identified as hallmarks of the romantic landscape. Stanfield never visited sardis so he relied heavily on the original drawing, though he likely supplemented with other sources in order to achieve the most accurate and complete depiction of the ruins. His drawing was then reproduced precisely in steel engraving by the Finden brothers. Let's briefly again to this table of contents. The columns may at first see be seen to reinforce the categories of amateur and professional and their gendering. It was only two men after all, the painter William Linton, and Captain William Edward Fitzmerries who were permitted to transgress by embellishing their own original drawing. The tables also frame the endeavor as a collaborative effort by mapping out the many interconnections between different kinds of artists to work directly or indirectly within the visual economy of landscape in late George and England. Contributing to such a publication was a professionalizing move for amateurs, even though they were still distinguished from the landscape is the list included some of the days most prominent architects antiquaries Egyptologists authors diplomats military and clergymen. In a competitive book market, many of them went on to publish accounts of their travels even recycling some of their own views, which raises the possibility of thinking differently about the private nature of amateur drawings in this period, when so many of them sketched with an eye towards publication. And by including the tables in each volume, Murray seems to suggest that they not only added value to the enterprise but that it was important for contemporary viewers, and the, the publications claims a lot of authenticity for the viewers to understand that each print was the product of multiple hands. It was sometime before December 1832 that Graham became involved in landscape illustrations of the Bible. In one letter she wrote to Murray about seven different leads on drawings that sheet on earth making it clear that amateur drawing circulated not just within immediate social circles but through extended networks. In addition to sourcing drawings she apparently helped select the very best ones. She described a sketch of Mount Ararat by Colonel Darcy as quote distant and flat is so Calcutt instead embellished one by James Morrier, the print after which we saw earlier. Graham also offered up some of her own sketches, only one view of Syracuse was selected which was embellished by Clarkson Stanfield seen here. In the foreground to figures with horses, lead them between a ruin and another figure gathering water on the right. And the background the temple of Minerva, which was transformed into a church in the seventh century can be seen towering above the city. The original drawing has not survived but I'm suggesting here that Stanfield started from a drawing that was already elevated above the level of near description and and possibly one that Graham drew with an eye to print in the first place. Graham only offered Murray sketches that she determined would translate well into print. While traveling Graham always worked in a variety of modes and media from topographical views related to the panoramic coastal profiles drawn by naval officers, such as this sketch of Syracuse on the left which was taken aboard ship from quote the stern window. To more finished picturesque views such as this drawing of the amphitheater and Syracuse on the right. When she conceived of a drawing relative to print her choice of medium tends to align with a specific printmaking technology brown ink and wash for intaglio processes. And then graphite for lithography seen here is a graphite drawing of the Villa Albani in Rome, on which Graham based her lithograph of the same subject on the right. Brace bridge appears to have done the same while sketching on the spot her drawing practice while traveling in many ways parallels Graham parallels that of Graham. She to drew in a variety of modes and media from panoramic coastal profile such as this one of the Bay of Acre now the Bay of hypha and Israel. To more finished picturesque compositions executed in brown ink and wash, such as this one of Mount Tabor on the bottom which was actually one of the views on brands list. However, her use of materials differ slightly which may reflect her training with the watercolor a Samuel Prout who actually also contributed to landscape illustrations of the Bible. While working at views that she felt confident would be reproduced as entirely using an intaglio techniques techniques. Brace bridge used larger sheets of gray paper with graphite black ink and white highlighting as with her drawing of he brought on the left. And on the right is the print after the embellished drawing by David Roberts in closing for a project such as landscape illustrations of the Bible that was framed as collapse as a collaborative venture by the table of contents. I want to suggest that Graham and brace bridge can be seen not as passive contributors but as active artistic agents. While making sketches on the spot that were conceived relative to print they both made representational choices that elevated their drawings above the level of mere description. Graham's editorial choices for their distinguish their contributions to landscape illustrations of the Bible. Brace bridge went on to publish the two panoramas seen here one of Jerusalem and the other of the Acropolis both sites of which were included on Graham's list but ultimately not selected for reproduction in landscape illustrations of the Bible. Brace bridge sold each for the benefit of a charity. It appears then that the landscape print series specifically the published series opened up new artistic possibilities for women in the late Georgian period. Thank you. Thanks so much Eleanor that was wonderful. Thank you so much. We have, we have 15 minutes perfectly on time to so we have 15 minutes for questions. So please come by all those participants who are watching and I can see that there are many of you to ask questions of Eleanor and of Sarah and in response to her papers. But while you're thinking about that and doing that, I might kick off things. So I was really interested just looking at the images by Kotman in relation to some of the other artists works that you showed and thinking about the kinds of ways he dismissed them. I just wondered if you could talk more about the ways in which this kind of aesthetics of exploration and openness that you are uncovering in terms of the way in which you looked at you approach these images might actually extend to their way up that that and and their ways of of taking the viewer into the imagery I was very struck by. First of all, that idea that you're given this approach not only to a building but into it in that selection of images that you showed where you are taking indoors as if you are kind of nosing around an image, which seems to fit your sense of an aura, but also that there was a very powerful sense of open windows of open doorways of openness and then an encouragement to the viewer to conjecture what lies but beyond those spaces whereas many of the other images you showed showed far more closed or closed facades and then even the extent that so much of the pictorial space in Kotman's images is left blank or white.  Yeah, I mean, you've summed that up really well and there's a lot there. If I can jump on your last point only because it's the precious to my mind from what you were saying. I think about the blankness of the images and certainly in his miscellaneous etchings which is the first set of etchings that Kotman ever produces himself taught in 1811. He produces them and publishes them all in 1811. And his friend Francis Chumlee takes real issue with the blank spaces and the lack of sky at the East Barton Prince have sort of a suggestion of sky of clouds. And sort of my thoughts with that, it was the Kotman at the same time as producing all of these etchings. He's also got a pedagogical role. He is, he's a teacher, as well as an exhibitor, a watercolor painter, a draftsman, all of these things which is how an artist sort of has a career in a very congested art world. And my sense of the blankness is that so sort of his students but also other amateur artists and the budding professional artists can also, can almost look at these images and take them out of their context and use them in their own work. And with that with some of Kotman's students they're sort of taking parts of a particular building in one of his volumes and putting them in their, their own work so I feel like they're, they're meant to be seen. They're meant to belong to the landscape in which he is exploring, and yet they also surface other function of being able to be used by by artists and amateur artists. So in relation to what you were saying about sort of the X, the lorative, how one explores these pictures by Kotman. Certainly the etchings that you see in the Norfolk, the antiquities of Norfolk volume corresponds so well to his other work that he's producing in other media. And from his very earliest work, you get this. This is a titillating suggestion of what might be inside. So I see that as very, it relates so much to his work in other media, but certainly something where, you know, the, the viewer reader, beholding these prints is meant to imagine what is beyond this building's exterior so that they can get a better sense of what, you know, the stories of these medieval buildings might be and certainly the letterpress gives a suggestion of that as well. And as I say with with Turner's descriptions they're very sort of open and loose. So I see that as very much giving Kotman and Turner offering the viewer reader the opportunity to be a collaborator in how the project is consumed and understood. So there's no order that you can, you know, you can put these plates in any order that you like and certainly the surviving volumes that I've come across in different collections. They're bound in lots of different ways. So I think as you say, openness, looseness, the ability to play with these plates and their order, how you might sort of make your own tour of Norfolk is central to their, their being. Thanks a lot. We have some questions coming up but before we. Yeah, I wonder if there's a question from John Hinks for you, Eleanor, that you might like to respond to. Thanks for a great talk says John. It's interesting how Graham and Bracebridge chose the medium according to the printing process. He says what was this normal practice at this period. It's interesting there that they chose their medium in terms of the kind of work, immediately produced according to the printing process. Does that strike a bell with you. Yeah. Thank you so much for the question and I just recently saw Selena Bracebridge's album and I was really excited to see that there were so many similar similarities with the way that she approached, depicting the landscape to Graham and this was a notice specifically with Graham's artistic practice. One of the benefits of studying Graham is that there's an enormous archive of her work and that's not something we normally have for for female artists, amateur artists from this time period there's something like 400 drawings sketchbooks and then other sort of scattered and so it really allows you to look at her method and her practice over time as it develops in place to place which is the heart of my dissertation project on her. And this sketchbook by Bracebridge has something like 30 drawings which also begin to show some of the same methods and it's something that I'm continuing to look at in other women's projects from this time period as well and so I don't want to make too broad of a generalization beyond these two women and its relationship to to landscape illustrations of the Bible. But it does seem like they are aware of printmaking technologies and what sort of print studies or drawings are necessary to to produce in order to translate well into that print medium. And I should say actually that there's of course lots of exceptions. One thing that's really interesting about about Graham's work is. She collated all the drawings that she did for her to travel logs of Latin America, and sent the drawings and her sketchbooks to Murray who also published those. It's really interesting to see when the drawings that she thought would illustrate her book were chosen and when others weren't. And so sometimes there's little tiny pencil sketches that she did just quickly in her notebook that actually ended up being selected presumably by Murray to be a vignette or actually even expanded into a full page print and so there's. There's a lot of choice that's happening when she's out sketching in the field but then the publication process always takes hold and so there's other agents who are impacting than what's actually produced in print and so there's a bit of a push and pull but the point I did want to make is that there are those choices that women are making out in the field as they're drawing and that they are aware of how their drawings are going to look when when reproduced in print. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. There's a question here from Jillian Forrester for you, so one of our earlier participants Jillian. She asks, does a letter press discuss the focus on ruination. And she and this is Jillian, is it just a romantic trope or is there a subtext about the economic and political state of Britain. And is it significant that the series was formulated and published during the wars in Napoleon. Dawson Turner would have had a view on this as a banker and a merchant even though by this time. I also wondered whether there was a Protestant subtext to the etchings of ruinate churches so that there's some thoughts on this focus on ruination in these in these images. Yeah, thanks Jillian those are fantastic questions. On the point on ruination and the letter press and I didn't have much time to really talk about the letter press. As I say on first reading, it does seem quite dry these are Dawson Turner's descriptions and they are descriptions, they are very, they're very short, but there are certain points, and I can't remember which ones I'm afraid, which plates it's sort of referring to, to where ruination is mentioned. It doesn't go into sort of any depth about sort of the history of the buildings they're quite strange really. But of course Cotman focuses so much on on ruination and, as you say, yes, romantic trope absolutely and Cotman is clearly buying into that as as indeed his other work of the period does. Is there a subtext I think you said about the economic and political state of Britain. I don't know I mean certainly knowledge at the time was going through sort of a very difficult economic period, owing to. I think it was, it was to do with weaving and I think it was sort of, there was a market for elsewhere and I can't really remember what I was, what I talked about when I talked about this in my thesis but I wondered, I remember thinking, is it that the, the ruined buildings and the medieval buildings these, these buildings that, yes they're ruined but they endure and they stand the test of time I wondered whether that was sort of helped act to get as a sort of bulwark, you know, against such anxieties economic anxieties. So really good question I don't really have a very good answer to it. I can't remember what the other ones about whether it's a Protestant Protestant subject. Yeah, that's fascinating. I don't know Julian. I'd love to talk more about that with you and certainly also what you were saying about the significance of these etchings being published during the Napoleonic Wars. I don't know who to thought, as always, Julian's questions are always so suggestive. Can I ask you a question a bit about I was really interested in your, when you showed that trio of images, kind of the different stages of a single image from that first early drawing of the two pillars and then the stand feels expansion of it. The third image is quite interesting that even in your captions you didn't mention the final engraving, you know that when you reproduced an engraving you didn't talk about the engraver so it's interesting that you that you don't, you kind of keep the engraver out of things. That's not my question the question really is about what do you I mean you've looked at these so much what happens in what happens between the original sketches that survive. The drawings that produced by people like turners and what do they do to those sketches, what are the classic things they introduced to to make them as it were publishable images. Yeah, thank you for that question and I'm clearly showing a bit of a bias here and my focus on the amateur drawings and the sort of sort of earlier stages and to be fair, there is much more to be said and much more work to be done on the translation of those embellished drawings as a print and it's just something I simply haven't looked at closely yet. But, but I hope to as my work on the series progresses. But, but it is it is interesting that it seems often from from what I can tell I'm still gathering examples, lining up those original drawings with the embellished drawings by the artist and the few examples that I found to date seem like they've stuck fairly closely to the original composition, Charles Barry the architect went on a trip, sort of grand tour and through the Middle East around 1819. A number of the his drawings were used and call kit used one as a as a basis of a drawing of the Holy Sepulchre and it's the exact same composition, but then the artists go in and and add effect to it. And so they're adding a sort of narrative they add additional staffage, often the sort of ratio of the people to background increases and so they're they're adding a sort of narrative component to it, and adding additional effects like lighting effects. And so I found it interesting that there was less change from the original drawing than I would have anticipated seeing, but they're still going in and they're and they're leaving their mark quite, quite clearly. Thank you. One last question I think before we take a break this is for you sir. First as Iris been for your wonderful talk. You mentioned Cotman circumspect approach to classification is artistic ambition stressing imaginative elements in his views. What role did his views of the camera Lucida play in this balancing of truth authenticity and imagination. That's a really good question hi to Iris. Thank you for that question Iris. The camera Lucida. As far as I know, Cotman didn't use it in his architectural antiquities of Norfolk volume, but as Tim Wilcox was talking about the other day in his excellent talk on Cotman's architectural antiquities of Normandy published after he, he used it and he didn't get on with it very well. And the relationship that exists between Dawson and Turner in the volume I've been talking about, I think becomes considerably more fragile and difficult and strange during the production of the architectural antiquities of Normandy, partly because there's so many more collaborators. There are so many more speculators, and he's been pushed and pulled in different directions and so I can't remember who it is I think it might Tim if you're there you might be able to correct me on this but I think it might have been Henry Engelfield who gave one of Cotman's patrons who gave him the camera Lucida or the graphic telescope it was, and he writes to Turner, how difficult he's finding it. And I think it's partly to do with it providing a particular viewpoint of a particular building and as we saw with Tim's talk, these edifices of the Normandy volume, they are absolutely huge they are sublime I think. And they don't, they admit the whole antiquarian subject, whereas what he's doing in the Norfolk publication with Turner as his quite close collaborator is he's so interested in these details which the graphic telescope and the camera Lucida doesn't really allow it's about full views and that is what the sort of the sort of society of antiquities kind of antiquarianism is interested in that sort of antiquarian subject the whole and in an impression. So I don't know that sort of. I'll just question directly but he finds it difficult and ambivalent and it's not just a technical thing. It's what it means for his kind of liberal persona. There are more questions for you Elnora, but I'm afraid we have to draw things to a close here and hopefully we might be able to return to at least related questions later. Just to mention that there's a question from Julian again Julian Forrester fascinated by Graham's interaction with Turner's Libra as you can imagine, and would like to know more about her purchase of engagement with Libra, the example of the Libra. I think four four minutes break now very brief I realized but hopefully gives you all the chance to take a comfort break, and we'll be back at just after one o'clock. I was too sorry, our time now where are we time wise days flying all over the place sorry, we'll be back in five minutes let me say that for everyone. I think we'll start again, if that's okay, I realize that I've given you very little time to take a break, but I hope that you are now returning to our webinar and will all be in, as it were, in your seats and in time for our next speaker. We're doing something slightly differently here because our next speakers, Alisa Bumbury who's from the Grimwell Wade collection curator or the GrimWade collection curator at the Ian Potter Museum of Art in the University of Melbourne. And as you'll have gathered from that description. Alisa is talking to us and joining us from Australia where it's just after about almost well in fact two o'clock in the morning. And knowing that she that would be the time no worrying that she might be appear very sleepy if you gave the presentation in person. She's at Alisa is actually given the going to film the presentation very kindly for us will join us for the Q&A, but is going to give us the benefit of her daytime self as it were in the film, which will be now playing, which will will be available to watch now or on YouTube. And if it's at all proving difficult, but as we see in the chat there, but now we'll play Alisa's presentation so over to Alisa for her presentation on taking from nature printed views of colonial Australia. Thanks. Hello. Thank you for this opportunity to talk with you in this series, which has been fascinating. It's wonderful to be able to share prints of colonial Australia in this broader British context and presenting in this final session I have no doubt you will see strong connections with previous papers and prints shown. I know some of you know this material well, but I'm assuming most of you don't just as we in Australia often overlook the bigger picture of European print publishing in this period. Firstly, I acknowledge that I live and work on the lands of the Wurundjeri Wurrung people in Naam, now the city of Melbourne. I acknowledge their elders past and present, and that my elders came to this country uninvited. I also note that Australia's first peoples were the first printmakers here. It is critical to consider this colonial material in light of the countries invaded over 500 nations make up as Indigenous Australia. I am focusing on the coastal lands around Sydney and touch briefly on Lutruwita, also known as Tasmania. This paper could indeed have been included in last week's session, Print and Property, because the images I'm about to show are all about claiming land. I start this paper reading the words of Dr Shane Ingray, a Dunguti Darawal man, created in Sydney in 1812. This depiction of the calm natural beauty of Gamay, Botany Bay, and the traditional lifestyles of our old people forms an eerie contrast to the actual dangers and stressful events that were happening at this time in our history. The resilience, defiance and survival of our old people are represented here. We see them still practicing and teaching our traditional lifestyle in the early 19th century, passing on cultural knowledge to the next generation. Today, the descendants of the Gamaygal people represented in this scene still live, still fish, still travel and still call Gamay home. This print is number one in the first series of landscape prints made in Australia, certainly crude in comparison with European printmaking at this time, but a graphic achievement for Sydney. By placing this print of Botany Bay as the first in the series, it symbolised to British viewers the safe arrival of the first fleet 24 years earlier, and that of James Cook, Joseph Banks and crew in the endeavour who sailed into Botany Bay and so named it in 1770. Yet seen today, this image invokes the invasion of country, this ship a harbinger of the devastation that was to follow to Shane's old people. The very first printed views had appeared in 1789 in the Stockdale published account of Governor Arthur Phillip, here on the left indeed showing the 11 ships of the first fleet. In the right image we see seemingly untouched Port Jackson, where the British disembarked founding Sydney in January 1788. Yet despite the intense interest in this new colony and numerous watercolours, drawings, maps and charts made by naval and convict artists. The first series of 12 printed landscape views did not appear until a full decade on in 1798 in the account of the judge advocate David Collins upon his return to England. Collins carried with him a quantity of watercolours by the trained convict artist Thomas Wattling, whose skills had been seized upon by officials keen to inform the governor, the government, friends and patrons back home about their discoveries and achievements. Wattling's now missing watercolours I show a similar probably earlier view were copied and cleaned up by the topographical artist Edward days, more used to painting European castles and ruins. And then etched for inclusion in Collins book and account of the English colony in New South Wales, volume one published by Caddell and Davies and dedicated to Lord Sydney. A decade on there was progress to report. This is government house. And here to locate you is the site of the opera house. And these show here, upper left another view of developing Sydney, upper right, the clearing of land and apparently content and hard working convicts on the road to parameter, which we see lower left, like an orderly country estate, overseen by the governor's There is also a view of remote Norfolk Island, which had been settled only six weeks after Sydney, not painted by Wattling, but visited by Collins on his voyage home. To give context, these are the locations of the Prince from Sydney Harbour up the Parramatta River, overlaid on the current extent of suburban Sydney. For brevity's sake, I need to skip mention of a small number of single sheet prints and illustrations printed in London and in Paris, following Nicholas Burdan's French voyage of exploration. So the next series of views was the one we began with a series of 24 prints on 22 sheets produced in Sydney between 1812 and 1814, the entrepreneurial exercise of an emancipated convict. Now businessman, Absalom West. Promoted as quote the first specimens of the graphic arts presented to the inhabitants of the colony. These were firmly directed at a local audience and visiting ships, rising in price from three pounds for the first 12 to nine for the full 29 pounds for the full 24. West was not a maker himself, but rather rather an opportunist, employing local talent, both convict principally the artist John Eyre freed men, and the first artist to come intentionally to Australia, John Lewin, who had in fact previously produced charming natural history etchings on the first intaglio press in the colony. Unlike previous prints, these were not seeking favor with patrons in England, but rather a straightforward commercial exercise with the bonus of carrying favor closer at hand being dedicated to the governor and Mrs McQuarrie. Of the 24 prints, 10 make up five two part panoramas. I show you here one of three double views of Sydney Cove, this time from near the Opera House location, looking across the ships at anchor to multi storied warehouses and with the quite standard inclusions of Government House. An Indigenous group. And an artist recording the scene of course to denote authenticity and accuracy. In the double view of paramatter now substantially developed from the country estate. We see again the governor's residents are here. Indigenous groups together with a bucolic sleeping shepherd this at a time when there was increasing violence over the killing of stock by Indigenous people whose own food sources had been decimated. And we see a well dressed Regency couple who of course indicate stability and safety. The most notable features, however, are the abundant tree stumps tangible evidence proudly displayed of the environmental impact of colonization. I couldn't resist taking this image from John Bonehill's paper last week of Hairwood House extraordinarily similar in mood and possessiveness. If not in execution. These prints were not breaking new ground, except by the fact that they were made in Sydney. A third pair shows Newcastle, a tiny coal mining settlement for reoffending convicts 170 kilometres north of Sydney. Here we see multiple family groups around campfires, the regimented town and substantial estuary. But also the numerous distant fires possibly lit by convict timber fellers, but more likely evidence of Waramai people living on country throughout this most beautiful and still coal mining coastal region. As a quick aside, I was struck by this sheet in John Heaviside clerks 18 views of Scotland in the Industrial Revolution to smoke denote progress where we now see pollution. And of course the Industrial Revolution and the enclosure acts. Another form of claiming land were major economic factors, leading to the British establishing remote penal colonies such as Newcastle. The entirety of West series, which has no accompanying text also demonstrates the expansion of settlement since the previous 1798 series, moving further inland, although not reflecting the breaching of the physical barrier of the blue mountains to the west. In 1813. Absalom West series inspired the second locally made landscape series, due to a set of fortuitous or unfortunate circumstances depending on your point of view. The convicts who worked for West, the engraver Walter Preston and artist Joseph Lysette, each re offended and was sent to Newcastle like had Lysette had quote, obtained sufficient knowledge of the graphic art to aid him in the practice of deception. That is he had forged bank notes on a secret press, which was also his original crime. In the mid 1810s, overlapped with that of a commandant Captain James Wallace, an ambitious military officer, an amateur artist himself. Wallace saw the advantage of visual documents to record his intensive building program, which accorded closely with that of Governor Lachlan McQuarrie in Sydney. For example, here you can see the church Wallace had built high on the hillside above the ordered fields. For instance, Newcastle was a rough convict outpost and supplies were restricted. Wallace later explained that they repurposed copper for ships hulls for the engraving plates. Despite this, Lysette and Preston managed to produce six large and six small etchings for Wallace by the end of 1818. Immetry flowed in both directions between the centre and outposts of empire. While West was publishing his series in Sydney, a set of engravings was published in London in 1814. After somewhat fanciful paintings by a William Westle, the young artist who had reluctantly circumnavigated Australia with Matthew Flinders in 1801 to 04. We know, thanks to Michael Rosenthal, that this set had reached Sydney by 1817 and Wallace clearly had access to it. The classically inspired figures in the lower right are copied from Westle's print of Port Jackson, as is also the Xantheria, the grass tree, and the Banksy are named after Joseph Banks, which helped locate this potentially generic colonial settlement as Australian. Wallace also used Lysette's talents extensively for decoration of his church for watercolours oil paintings. This is likely to be Wallace leading the hunting party here and to decorate not one but two extraordinary collectors chests built, painted, collected and arranged in Newcastle. The unfolding painted panels are based both on these Newcastle prints, as well as Westle's engravings of far distant coastlines. Wallace's views were printed in Newcastle, briefly available for sale in Sydney, reissued in London and subsequently included in his historical account of the Colony of New South Wales, published by Rudolf Ackman in 1821. Now with descriptive text that celebrates the success of the colonial enterprise to date. Not only does Wallace, like West before him, claim these as the first prints in the Colony, while crediting the engraver Preston, he claims authorship of the drawings. However, it was long thought and is now proven that the artist was of course Lysette. This lovely watercolour from the Sydney Battery is one of a number pasted into Wallace's own copy of his account. Again, we see that roaming Regency couple chatting to the artist, yet in the print they're transformed into a relaxed but armed soldier, appropriate both for the battery, but also Wallace's military mind. Okay, onto the wonderful view book produced by Lysette himself after receiving his pardon and returning to London in 1823. Produced in monthly parts with two views each of New South Wales and Van Demen's land now Tasmania. This series began as lithographs that soon reverted to the more familiar aquitint technique, accepting this, the charming title page with distinctive botany and awkward but undeniably Australian animals. One of the remarkably green landscape they're in is the Bathurst Plains, named for Lord Bathurst, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, to whom the book is dedicated. The accompanying essay and descriptive text reads very much as a glowing account of Imperial achievements and an advertisement or enticement for investment and emigration. In a much larger series from Collins and Wallace's 12 and West's 24 prints, now to 48 prints plus two maps, the diversity of locations and subject matter is greatly expanded. Here we have some of the New South Wales scenes, including grandest house in Sydney, Henrietta Villa, and some of the views of Van Demen's land, almost certainly based upon watercolours by a surveyor artist GW Evans, as there's no record of Lyset ever travelling to that island. And once again, we see that ubiquitous couple in various permutations who clearly roamed widely through the British counties and colonies. The repetition of the gesticulating hand is interesting, while suggesting relaxed conversation or possibly mansplaining and encouraging viewers to imagine themselves there in the landscape. This is, of course, a visual claiming of land. You can also see quite clearly here the distinct change in the presentation of the Australian landscape. This correlates both with the increased exploration of inland waterways and land countries, but also, of course, the vogue for the picturesque and the sublime. As Michael Rosenthal notes, Salvatore Rosa was evoked repeatedly in this period here in the descriptive text. The genius of a Salvatore Rosa could scarcely render justice to such scenery as this. That superlatively magnificent and awfully sublime landscape, which the hand of nature has produced in this wide, wild solitude of Australia. This is an enormously important publication in the history of Australian imagery, but it isn't recognised nearly enough here in Australia how absolutely formulaic it is to produce among aquitinted travel books, as Douglas Fordham may show in his paper following. Originally offered coloured for seven pounds, by 1830 it was being remained into two pounds, so it didn't fare well among the abundant similar publications. Nevertheless, JR Abbey chose a plate from Lyset for his travel in aquitint and lithography, as some of you may have recognised. Now, a quick sidestep. The first three series I've discussed each also include images of Indigenous life above and beyond the staffage we've seen. Collins and presumably the artist Wattling were allowed to witness a coming-of-age initiation ceremony in 1795, depictions of which were included as an illustrated appendix in his 1798 book. Contrasting with the nascent townships and house portraits, West series also includes a view of a native camp and a broadside describing the burial rites for a broken Bayman baghara. While Wallace's series includes an impressive double-page image of a firelit corroboree, a ceremony that this man, Burrigan, had arranged to be put on for Governor Macquarie when he visited Newcastle in 1818. The Lyset views, however, is noticeable for the scarcity of traditional owners. As John McPhee and later Greg Lehman have noted, while all but two of the prints are populated, only six show Aboriginal people, all in New South Wales and none at all in Tasmania, where only a few years later, all Palawa people were hunted, rounded up and forced off their island in the Black Wars. I show you here another view of Botany Bay, the location we started with. The one image that narratively as well as visually foregrounds Indigenous Australians is this. The accompanying text mentions only the nearby harbour and its possibilities, not the family group relaxing gathering shellfish. But the image is possibly probably inspired by this event depicted in watercolour by Lyset, in which he was slightly wounded by a spear thrown by Waramai warriors defending their country. So I'll finish on this plate. To the British comfortably browsing through this volume in drawing rooms and libraries, it may have provided a frisson of exoticism or racist superiority. Read today, these men are on alert about to rise, their gestures also very much claiming their land. So I'm aware I've run slightly over time, but there's so much more that could be said and analysed about these prints and their context. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on these, either in question time or in future correspondence. Thank you. Thanks so much, Lyset. That was such a talk packed with so much interesting stuff, not only visually, but in terms of your ideas and arguments around it. So please all of you who have been looking at that remarkable imagery and listening to Lyset's interpretation and commentary on it, please submit questions because it'd be great to talk more about that. Right, we now move on to, and Lyset will be here in person, as it were, live to answer your questions. And last but not least, our final speaker and not only for today, but for the entire landscape, graphic landscape conference program. Douglas Fordham from the Professor of Art History at the University of Virginia, really pleased to welcome Doug here, someone of course whose work all of you, all of you I'm sure will know well, and whose work we're proud to have published recently at the Paul Mellon Centre in terms of his recent book with us. But his talk today is kind of very interesting title, it's Travel, Prince or Illustrated Books, and we'll kick off with that over to you Doug. Thank you, Mark. Thank you to Mark and Felicity for this terrific conference and for all the speakers I've really enjoyed these talks at all hours of the day and the last two weeks. Let me go ahead and share a screen. And I'll mention that I'm speaking from Charlottesville, Virginia, which is on the traditional lands of the Monica nation. So I'm sharing that across the oceans as part of a shared colonial history with Australia and the displacement of indigenous peoples. And another link to Australia is that at the University of Virginia, we have the Kluge Ru collection of Aboriginal art, which makes us the only museum outside of Australia dedicated exclusively to Aboriginal art. And so there's a wonderful connection there too. So in this talk, I would like to ask a very simple question. Am I looking at a print series or an illustrated book. And as I undertook research on aquatents, particularly those of Britain's expanding empire. I found this question surprisingly difficult to answer. It was coming, it kept coming back to me in odd ways. Sorry, this is the title slide and I'll come back down to here. This story and I initially approached prints like Thomas and Williams Daniels and excavated temple on the island of South set as a self sufficient work of art rendered in careful perspective with the temple scale established by the human form. The print bears a title artists names and elegant hand coloring. It's nearly two by three feet wide, which is substantial enough to be framed glazed and framed on a wall, as indeed many of Daniels prints were in the early 19th century. Unobtrusively in the lower right hand corner you can make out the Roman numeral three, which establishes that the print was part of a larger series. This view of a Buddhist Chaikya on the island of South set just outside of Bombay present day Mumbai was one of 144 prints as many of you know that comprise Thomas and William Daniels monumental publication Oriental scenery. This is how one views the work in many libraries today as a bound volume corresponding to the six volumes organized and self published by the Daniels between 1795 and 1808. These elephant folio volumes are unwieldy, particularly for those on a landscape format which was most of them. The small pamphlet that you see on the left holding down the opposite page in the original blue wrapper is of course the descriptive text. It consists of a few pages of descriptive text for each print. The commentary is is a little bit disappointing for our historians it says almost nothing about why the Daniels. What their experience was like representing these temples or why they were choosing what they were doing or even when they were there. They just provide information about each monuments location in India, it's known history, and occasionally it'll make reference to social use how many people were there, if there was a religious festival, etc. This sheer juxtaposition in scale between the elephant folio prints, and the letter press text suggests of course that this is a print series. It requires therefore to read testimony that William Daniel gave before a parliamentary select committee in the 18 teams. William insisted that Oriental scenery was a book, even if that designation came with certain penalties, since letter press was essential to the publications purpose and meaning. I'm not too far into the weeds here but publishers complained to parliament on multiple occasions in the first third of the 19th century, that the deposit rule was unfair to publishers of high end books. The statute of and of 1710 required publishers to register each new book with the company of stationers, and that provided them copyright protection. In turn, they had to provide nine excellent copies of their book to the major universities and the British Museum. Now, not all book publishers did this and to improve compliance parliament passed the Copyright Act of 1801. The Copyright Act also cracked down on the intellectual piracy of Dublin publishers, but it also then added two more Irish universities to the list, bringing 11 deposit copies as the final total of those needing to be given with for publication to be registered. Now this deposit requirement was particularly onerous for the publishers of expensive books with small print runs and Oriental scenery was exemplary in this regard. In an 1813 petition to parliament, London booksellers trotted out Thomas and William as an example, and this is a bit of a long quote but I think it's really terrific, given the nature of this conference so I'm going to read this now. Messiers Daniel spent the prime of their lives in India, collecting drawings and information relative to that country. With which, richly freighted, they at length returned home. Upon their arrival, they proposed to publish their pictures and manuscript for the use of their countrymen in six imperial folio volumes at 200 Guineas, a moderate price for such a work. Now, let us suppose them to have been informed that some of the parties from whom they had expected patronage, meaning the universities, would be amongst the unlooked for claimants of 11 copies without payment, which copies perfect and highly finished they were bound by law to give away before they could sell a single copy. So, including their expenses for these copies that is paper printing and coloring, only of the 11 copies Messiers Daniel would therefore have found that before they could be permitted to receive the least return for bestowing upon this nation one of the greatest boons. It ever received from literature and the arts combined. They must have paid a fine of 670 pounds, end quote. This and William were an extreme case it should be noted, since they combined the roles of traveling artist printmaker and book publisher, thereby placing the full burden of the deposit rule on their shoulders. Five years later, William Daniel gave evidence directly to another parliamentary committee, asked what effect the deposit requirement had quote, upon any publications which you have made or which you intended to make in quote, William Daniel quote, it prevented the continuation of a large folio work entitled Oriental scenery. It also prevented a reduced edition of an African work. And he's referring here to his brother's African scenery and animals. Another of Salon, a series of scenes and figures illustrative of the customs of India and of persons and animals peculiar to that country. I believe those are the chief works which the act has checked me in proceeding with, end quote. When asked whether he would be exempt from the deposit requirement if there was no letter press, Daniel answered quote, I am given to understand that to be the case, end quote. Daniel countered, however, that letter press was quote required for explanation, end quote. When asked what has been the effect with respect to the publications which you have already made in quote, he answered a touch melodramatically quote, they took for me that which an artist can ill afford to give the amount of 11 copies, end quote. Now I don't think we can take William entirely at his word here yes he was under oath but I think he's still exaggerating a little bit I find it very hard to believe that he intended to expand Oriental scenery at all by this late date. He already has 144 plates that had already been in issued as a reduced addition. In African scenery and animals by Samuel Daniel had sold poorly and I don't think that was a prime candidate for reduction and republication. Daniel was mostly concerned about the cost that he was going to face with a new publication of voyage round Great Britain. In fact Daniel brought volume one of that public publication with him. When he gave his testimony in 1818, and he stated that 11 copies of volume one alone would cost him 77 guenis. It's remarkable that a voyage round Great Britain is more book like than Oriental scenery. The aquitant plates and descriptive texts are printed on standard folio pages. As early as 1809 William noted quote, the necessity of being connected with booksellers in quote, and he outsourced this book to the major publishing firm of Longman Hearst, Rhys, Orman Brown. Daniels also hired George Norman to produce a reduced version of Oriental scenery, which they sold interestingly enough for 21 pounds, which was exactly one tenth the cost of the original. The Daniels made these decisions in direct response to an increasingly competitive book trade. The chart tracks the publication of English language books in the English short title catalog between 1470 and 1800, which is the moment it cuts off. What this chart doesn't provide is a clear view of the dramatic growth in book illustration beginning in the late 18th century. The graphic scholars often refer to the quote illustration revolution of the 1820s and 1830s, which was driven by the popularization of wood engraving by mechanized paper production, the spread of commercial lithography and new economies of scale and distribution. But many of these changes began however gradually in the 1790s and early 1800s. It was in the crucial decades between 1790 and 1840 that the landscape print series took shape alongside a dynamic trade in illustrated books. And it is artificial and I think ultimately counterproductive to try to keep these two strands apart. A driving force and Britain's illustration revolution was Rudolph Ackerman, and his repository for the arts in the strand. The main sales floor at the shop that Ackerman opened in 1797. Ackerman began by selling art supplies and the artworks of others, but he increasingly turned to the sale of prints and books that he printed and published in house. Based on illustrated publications with an Ackerman imprint, John Ford calculated that the firm produced no fewer than 372,000 aquitant prints in the period just between 1808 and 1816. And the many of these prints would have been found in bound artistic manuals, magazines, travel books, and more. In an 1813 issue of Ackerman's popular miscellany, the repository of the arts, which is the name of the miscellany to it included a fold out plate that we see here of Ackerman's library for works of art. The print celebrated the recent edition of a tea room and a library to his shop in the strand. The library housed quote, a copious collection of such books as relate to the arts, or are adorned with graphic illustrations in quote. And this is to my knowledge the first library in the world dedicated to illustrated books. As Ackerman explained quote, among the many valuable libraries public as well as private, which grace the metropolis, there was not one exclusively appropriated to the reception of books on the subject of the fine arts in quote. Ackerman's library included full and reduced copies of Oriental scenery, as well as a great many illustrated travel books relating to India. In fact, the catalog I just went back and look the 1815 catalog this 829 illustrated books to be found in in the library. In any of these books, we might call picture books rather than illustrated books. If we take the latter to refer to book books in which images illustrate a preceding textual authority in books like Oriental scenery and African scenery and animals. The images were primary. They ran ahead of that which words could easily or accurately describe lacking clear epigraphic evidence. The symbols had yet to be sorted into periods and styles. NASA and to swana speaking communities in Southern Africa, thwarted not only spoken conversation, but British theories of historical development and racial descent. And yet, as William Daniels deposition suggests, these are picture books that required text more text than you could arguably put at the bottom of an edge into the bottom of a plate. The book was also a format that invested the print series with authority and internal coherence. It proclaimed here is a discrete unit of information or I belong on a shelf as a resource to be learned from. There's a productive tension in these works between print as a source of aesthetic pleasure and book as a source of information. In 1789 a book reviewer apologized for reviewing William Hodges select views in India quote, though we do not usually notice in our review, the publications of Prince, yet the historical descriptions accompanying the views of these ruins buildings etc, which Mr Hodges has represented in his superb volumes are such as entitled the work to a place in a journal of the literary productions and polite arts of the country, in quote. By the time that Oriental scenery was completed in 1808, no fewer than five major literary publications reviewed it as a book as book reviews. Some of them did so without any apology or special pleading. In other words, this is a really remarkable moment where this is a gone from it. Is this something that needs to be reviewed as in a literary review to something that was just a common place and something that was absolutely necessary. I'd like to conclude with my original question but with a slight twist. Are these ladies and gentlemen looking at a print series or an illustrated book. How do our ideas about reception differ when we call something a book versus a print. I'm intrigued by the idea that this is the world's first art history library, which Ackerman opened quote, not merely to the professors but also to the amateurs of those arts in quote. The novels were Roman and Indian ruins English and Jamaican estate views costumes from India China Russia and England microcosms of London, and the world and miniature. This eclectic and largely unhierarchical library of images suggested countless narratives and astonishing juxtapositions. And then moving forward to the 1950s, and a host of art history surveys that sought to narrate coherent stories of art. EH Gombrich made do with a carefully selected set of 370 illustrations. I'm fascinated by what art history both gained and lost in the 140 years between Ackerman's library and Gombrich textbook. It was a century and a half of nearly constant revolution in the means of image production and distribution. And it was an equally momentous period in the expansion of European imperialism, global conflict, and then abrupt decolonization. I do believe these two are related. And one way to explain this relation might be to consider print series and illustrated books as mutually constitutive cultural products that were part and parcel of Western canon formation. Thank you. Thank you so much, Doug. What a great way to end this program. Because you just opened up such a broad set of questions there which are really helpful in terms of us thinking through this category that we've nominated for focus and over the past two weeks, and about its borderlines. So thank you so much. So now the next 10 minutes or so it'd be great to have or five minutes or so a bit of time to for questions to both Doug and to Elisa directly and directly in response to their paper. So can I encourage all of you to do that and to ask questions of the Duggan for Lisa now. And while you're formulating a question or two. I'd very much like to take chairs privilege. I was really struck by it. And so it's a very obvious thing to notice in one level about the fact that this imagery was almost like kind of the part of the weaponry of colonization that that this is imagery that naturalized the takeover of this territory of the colonists but I was really interested about the way you talked about the fact that these images, these sets of images that should produced in in Sydney for what you called for a local audience. And you, you, you, you sort of, you didn't dwell on that idea about the audience for these prints and their role for that audience because presumably they were producing good numbers and there would have been a ready audience amongst the settlers so that they there was clearly a sense on the on the producers and entrepreneurs part that there was an audience or a market for these images and that they may well have had quite a strong kind of permeation into that market so that they became very much part of the visual currency of of the growing settlement. I just wondered how much you think that this imagery was disseminated across those who settle there. Yes, it's a good question to look at how how these were done and how many were produced is one of the big questions to think about particularly for that Sydney material. One of the issues that they were certainly having at this time was a scarcity of paper that often came and went. The Sydney Gazette, the sole newspaper at that time, often talked about the scarcity of paper, sometimes even advertising saying doesn't anyone have paper available. So for images like the West Prince, it's difficult to get an idea of how many were produced at the time. Although we do know, of course, that people would have been buying these and sending them back home. The ones produced by Wallace were probably produced only in small quantities in in Newcastle. And we know that he advertised and sold a small number, but they were principally produced in London and are most are known from the published book rather than the earlier print views that were printed and available in London. But most of the ones that are now seen are published, you know, bound into that or disbound and if they have been so treated since then from the 18 one publication. But how certainly there was an audience of visiting ships. We know that there was an artist, Richard Brown, who actually was the artist behind that paramatter pair, paired view that I talked about. He actually produced drawings, not prints or watercolours, not prints in the 1810s, and he produced them in quantity. He had a stock set of portraits of a Wabakol and Waramai people from the Newcastle region, as well as a small number of Australian birds and animals. And he actually produced them so similarly that there's been suggestion that they were produced by Stencil. I can't see any evidence of that. And I've looked very closely at Richard Brown's material, but he was clearly aiming at a visiting market. And we know that when the Fresno expedition visited Sydney in 1819 that they bought material ended up back in Paris from that at that time. So there was certainly movement of these works. But in terms of the West Prince, we don't get a feeling that he had to keep in good favour with people back in England in the same way that some of the others such as Wallace who obviously was thinking about his future military career might have been thinking. Thanks very much. These questions are starting to come up now. There's a question. Question actually for you Doug, from John Hinks, who thanks you for a very stimulating talk and he says that as a book historian with an interest in the history of printmaking. I think we should find a way of encouraging book historians and art historians to discuss the important questions you raised. And it's interesting that issue about whether, you know, whether book historians are doing the kind of work that we're hoping to do across this event in this in very different ways and just be interested to think about that and the suggestion of Johns that we might bring those communities of scholars together. And what would happen if that was to be the case. Yeah, thank you john I love that comment and I think there's a lot of work to be done that way I mean typically illustration is not the focus of critical bibliography and although it's certainly becoming much more. There's not so much bigger interest in that way, but I absolutely have seen this where I think especially at this, particularly in this period that we've been looking at in this conference there is a kind of falling through the cracks I mean, you know, in these books of travel, where often these were not considered fine art prints by any means, but the books themselves were considered more interesting to bibliographers than the illustrations that might have gone into them. So I think there's still a very rich scene of work to be done that way I, I came to this partly through working with the rare book school here in Charlottesville, and, and kind of recognizing where we weren't really communicating and I really do think that this is something that that in that transitional moment I mean this is something that Anthony Griffith pointed to in, you know, a couple sentences and is, you know, amazing new kind of monumental work. But there was some defensiveness on the part of print makers that the booksellers were intruding into their territory circa 1800. And of course, you know, because that you had the rolling press, and the print makers on one side and you had the letter press, and the book publishers on the other side these had been separate worlds for hundreds of years, and right around 1800 these worlds really collide and the bookmakers have the economic advantages and they really kind of take over and that's what William Daniel points to he says, I can we can't afford to do another publication like this ourselves. It's very frustrated that their works weren't selling well that they weren't being marketed properly, something art historians probably feel in book lists all the time, right. So, so I think this is a really useful seem to mine. And something like the Libo which famously has no textual commentary of the kind that you have been talking about Turner's Libo studio room. There it almost can seem defiantly non textual is that what is that way of kind of asserting it's well it's it's it's occupation of the realm of the fine arts rather than this crossover realm that you're pointing to. Interesting. Yeah. I just wanted to say, I'm interested in your paper and all the papers. Um, but with them, it corresponds with a project. I know you've come close, you can even close. Thank you. And it's just that has found a manuscript. Which shows that So So So So So So And then transferred back to printed books. So what has become sort of normal. And what we see as as appropriate to the print room is actually only half of what was originally transferred there. And so I'm working on identifying those words, and they are very much the types of works you, you're looking at including Hodges. And, and we had to catalog them and try and break down the perceived boundaries between the print room and the library, because just within this one institution, you can see, there was actually fluid movement between the departments. Um, so I hope people can hear what I'm saying. Maybe just to recapitulate. I mean maybe you did hear that, Doug, but just that. Yeah, there's this that Anthony Griffith has found this kind of manuscript a record of the fact of this great number of objects that were what initially meant understood to be part of the print and drawings department then transfers the library because they was felt, and the way in which the British library in the British Museum of kind of maintained or reinforce this what what Felicity is suggesting is a kind of false division between the world of books and the world of prints that that your your your talk talks to talk to so eloquently. Okay, I think we've got 10 minutes left now thanks so much Felicity that's such an interesting such an interesting project you're involved in is to kind of recover the titles that were moved in this way. So, can I invite all the all our panelists to make themselves seen as it were Eleanor and Sarah. That'd be great. So we have everyone on board now and I guess I'd like to ask everyone to reflect a bit on, not only their own papers and each other's papers and you're very welcome to ask questions of each other, but about some general questions that you feel might come out of the conference about about the landscape princess series and, in a way, Doug I think your final paper was a great provocation to us to think about whether we should be analyzing it in isolation in the way that we have been or is that a, is that a false vacuum that we're placing it within, or do you, or alternatively, do people feel that the conference is kind of unearthed a body of materials and a category of imagery or category of publication that is worth looking at collectively as well as we've looked at so many individual examples done of case studies through the last two weeks. What happens if we bring those case studies together and think across them, as well as in, as well as look at them individually some any broader thoughts from the panel on those on those issues or any others would be really welcome. Eleanor. Thank you so much throughout this conference about the different ways in which these prints were used and bound and consumed and I had even no idea and entering into my own research just how many ways the landscape prints of the Bible were used they were intended to be found in different versions of the Bible they could be looked at individually and then even the publisher himself Murray package them twice once in 34 and one bound volume and then in 36 and in two volumes. And, and again the table sort of that I that I talked about sort of frame it as this enterprise and it is fascinating to me, all the different ways that these prints can can be consumed and package, and as a sort of response to Douglas. Could they be both prints and travel books, you know, the and that's essentially what what Murray is doing is he saying consume these individually if this is what's interesting to you if you're an antiquarian you want to take them out of the format of the of the scripture quarter and maybe rebind you know reorganize them for yourself by location or if the interest to you really is in the scripture you can consume them that way. And it's interesting that Murray seemed to tune to that question and produced it in every format that was sort of possible for for people to to to engage with at that moment. And so we've got some those issues or related ones of the themes that have emerged from the conference for all of you. Sarah. My God there's so many fascinating questions on there around sort of artwork and or illustration text and image print room and library. I guess. Oh my God there's so many things but it's I think for me it's a question of methodology that's coming up. This sort of relationship between the body and the work and I was, I guess. It makes me think about whether we can really study these landscapes that we've all been talking about with that without going to the landscape and of course, in some instances that's really difficult and impossible biblical landscapes, perhaps, keep among them. But I'm just thinking of the of how artists might approach that question about do you go to the to the site and experience the landscape before you actually produce the work and the answer seems to be overwhelming. Yes, and I was really struck by Jillian's focus on the work of the two contemporary artists that she looked at. There's sort of a haptic quality there and that they wouldn't dream of making the work without going to the landscape and understanding the environmental effects that those have on the landscape. I'm thinking about Greg's talk on Gertin and Tim's on Cotman the other day again those artists being in the landscape and consuming that landscape and producing that landscape in printed form. Even if they are looking out of the window of a Hackney coach or remember Greg talking about. And so artists seem to be really, really good at doing this. And I am guilty of this myself not always going to the landscapes that I'm writing about. And, and as historians we really seem to be sort of a bit shy or ashamed of doing that. So I'm just, it's not really a question it's more a question of methodology and I think when thinking about the papers and what these artists are doing it sort of just makes me think about my own practice as a part time historian part time curator as a part time historian of landscape prints. It's interesting with in response that point that Eleanor's paper demonstrated the ways in which that that that's a combination of experience and representation could be quite happily decoupled that you know that you have a column of people who did the sketches who did who are who are have highlighted as having visited it, but then a whole column of artists, and they are the fine artists the Clarkson sandfields the turn is who is no pretence that they had ever visited but there was a confidence about saying well they've done some, they've done some really interesting work with those original set to make it works of art so there is almost you can see that that that that coupling of the experience and representation has been has been severed quite and quite confidently so. Well, that also comes up of course in the question of material that was sent back from colonies to be translated in Europe and how how that translation happens and you might have seen as some of the images, particularly of the indigenous people of course they get and so the choices that are made by the artists who frequently don't see the don't have don't have the full image that the full picture behind them to to be able to present the for the vegetation accurately for example, one of the series that didn't didn't doesn't come into this topic is john here side Clark's field sports of the native inhabitants of New South Wales and equity in series of 10 prints that accompanies his field foreign field sports, and he's clearly it's absolutely formulae he hasn't tried to capture that in any in any accuracy it's just to become a formula that he's presented there without without the connection back to the to the key source, which is probably a literary source rather than a visual source in that case. Yeah, one thing I just wanted to draw attention to as well as that I think there's a. When, when we're talking about intaglio print making the efforts to try to print major print series on site, let's say in Calcutta in Sydney. They're generally on a pretty limited scale and they're not commercially successful so the Daniels, for example, found that it was cheaper and easier for them to send to take their materials back to London have it printed in London with professional printers, cheaper paper better materials, and then, and then send it back out to the colonies, where their mark where that was still like it was EIC officials in India that was their main market for a lot of these prints. And then that really that dynamic really changes with lithography it's with lithography for the first time that colonial print makers in these centers could do it kind of cheaply at scale it may also have to do with the cost of paper going down by the 1830s. And there's a real kind of distinction I think I mean, so again for thinking about book trade and print making trade in the British context London still has this overwhelming monopoly on intaglio printing. And then that only shifts once the litho kind of takes off. Yes, you see that in Australia as well 1826 is the first lithograph produced in Australia and the flourishes from then. Yeah. So I can come back to you to you and your example this the common. I was really struck that he used these words of need of how condemnatory was a so much of the other work that was being topographical or not topographic the and architectural views that are being produced. This issue about very bad drawing and he said that you know these works demand that you I think your quote was utmost delicacy and judgment. So it seems that there's a very interesting kind of hierarchical hierarchy emerging within that this field of landscape imagery where someone like Cotman clearly feels a need to distinguish his practice from those are this massive imagery that the revolution that Doug was talking about has generated that there needs to be a way in which practitioners like Kotlin distinguish their products there as aesthetic as different from the kind of what was now becoming the formulaic or the run of the mill and I wondered if that was something that has emerged from you from this conference about whether you know there's this kind of push and pull between the formulaic, the conventional and and the need to distinguish your products from a greater run of landscape imagery. Yeah, I mean, just thinking about sort of is making me think about my own work on on Kotlin and sort of revisiting what I what I might think about what he's trying to do that. And certainly I think he's, and so many artists at the time, have to occupy so many stalls and always having to sort of, I don't know what it is sort of, yeah, mark themselves out in a different way and so I see his comments almost mimicking sort of sort of exhibition criticism of the time sort of having to mark himself out from those can, you know, sort of conventional antiquarian prints. Yeah, it's something that I still need to think a lot about I think in terms of you know what what does he really mean by those words and what I've in today's talk it was very much to do with sort of technique and what that might mean. But I need to think more about it I think in terms of his actual liberal persona and where he's trying to situate himself in a in an art world. I don't know if that echoes across other people's thoughts as well. Well, look, it's 640 you know what 1601 for one minute past four with these two hours of flown by. Thanks. There is so much to discuss and we'll know that obviously I'm going to try and find ways of carrying on this conversation because it's such a productive one. I hope that all of you would agree and all of you watching will agree that this has been a productive and generative focus for us as art historians. And I want to say thanks to all the speakers today for such wonderful papers and contributing to such as in a consistently strong body of papers that we've had across the two, two weeks. I'm actually delighted with the response we got in the first place, fantastic audiences we've been attracting and the level of interest that's been generated by this topic and as I said, we'll certainly want to take it forward but in the meantime, huge thanks to Doug, to Eleanor, Alisa, to Sarah. I'm just reading you out as I see you across my screen in order from left to right. Thanks so much and of course huge thanks to Felicity for helping me and working side by side on this project and of course the PMC team it was wonderful to have such a smoothly running day to day so many thanks all around and look forward to talking all of you have visited soon and we'll carry on this conversation. Thanks very much. Bye bye for now. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.