Now, once you have done all these mechanisms how you are going to use them. So, what I have shown you was the simplest possible models which were being used, but nature is not so simple our profession is not so simple and that is where we have to take help for few models which define advective, diffusive, contaminant transport in tandem, in tandem means together coupled phenomena. So, this is the form of the equation. If you do lot of mathematical jugglery you will end up getting this equation. Can you recognize few terms appearing here? Del c by del t is nothing, but concentration gradient with respect to time, d i is diffusion coefficient, del square c by del x del z square is variation of concentration with respect to distance. What is V s? C page velocity del c by del z is nothing, but again concentration gradient in the distance domain, rho dry is the density of the media. What is K d? K d is the distribution coefficient divided by porosity of the porous media multiplied by del c by del t. I have not intentionally shown the derivation of this equation which will take lot of time, but I just wanted to show you how these type of equations can be used for simple modeling purpose. So, if I ask you a question in broad sense what this parameter corresponds to d i into del square c by del z square sin u s. What would be this term? This is diffusive contaminant transport. What about this term? Del c by del z into V s advective contaminant transport. What about this thing which I have encircled? This is the retardation of the porous media. See the flux is moving from one point to another point. What you are trying to find out is the rate of change of concentration. So, rate of see how concentration is moving from one point to another point it is nothing, but primarily because of diffusion. If there is a seepage velocity the concentration gets reduced. So, you have reduced this much value from this term. So, diffusive contaminant transport minus advective contaminant transport minus retardation capacity of the porous system. So, when you say retardation capacity of the porous system these two terms are very well known to you. It is nothing, but the porous media characteristic which you have been talking about. Now, the term which is appearing for the first time or which is quite new for you is k d. Now, this is what is known as distribution coefficient. What is the meaning of term distribution? See this is what I have shown you earlier that if you allow enough time for a contaminant to come in contact with the porous system because of very low seepage velocities. What is going to happen? It starts communicating with the porous media. Now, how much communication is going on? It is nothing, but distribution that means what percentage of contaminant gets or is getting interacted with the porous media. So, that means this is where we say what is the fraction of the contaminant which is getting distributed from a liquid phase to the solid phase of the soil mass. So, you should appreciate that these are all philosophies and philosophies have been put in mathematical forms clear. So, now let me ask you a question if k d is much more what happens to the concentration at a given point and whether it whether this type of situation is useful helpful to you or not? That is right. That is right. What is the meaning of this? If you have a clay barrier whether clay minerals are very active what is that they are doing? That is right correct. So, this is the whole philosophy of designing a clay barrier system. You have to design clay barriers using a sieve. I am using the word sieve which not only allows water to move out, but it stops cations also from the solute or contaminant. So, the name of this type of sieve is molecular sieve. That means your porous media is acting now like a molecular sieve. It will not allow certain molecules to even pass through itself and that becomes the best possible barrier system which should be utilized at a waste containment facility. Is this part clear? Now, d c by d t you can obtain very easily. You can measure the concentration by conducting either the boreholes or in the laboratory you can measure repeatedly after certain time by taking a sample or dosing and then you can measure by using atomic absorption AIS or ICP or whatever. So, this term is very well known d c by d t. d i you can obtain by conducting different experiments. I have shown you one experiment in the previous lecture by using diffusion cells. Del square c by del z square can also be obtained rate of change of concentration with respect to time. You can monitor at two three different places how concentration is changing and you can know the concentration profile change. V s is easily measurable. The most challenging task is K D and this is a big headache. Government of India spends almost not less than 100 crore rupees in the research where K D determination should be done very precisely. Most of the mines where uranium is been taken out.  So, one side too much of industrialization too much of mining activity very good for your nation to become a high profile nation. But, then second side what is going to happen your own populace is going to die because of all this contamination. So, this becomes a very tricky issue. So, there is a very big exercise going on right now where K D determination has to be done in different labs. About 22 labs have been selected in the country our lab is one of them and we are now trying to formulate a methodology to streamline the methodologies and methods which are adopted for determination of K D. So, the first step in modeling would be after you have got these parameters you should get an answer from this equation in the form C as a function of T and Z. So, what is the concentration at a given time at a given distance that is what you are interested in as a user. So, D i is the diffusion coefficient and K D is the distribution coefficient. Now, with this information I would be in a position to take you into the world of sorption desorption mechanisms. I hope you will appreciate this unless this was given to you there is no point talking about sorption and desorption process. Most of the mathematical models are available these days in the form of finite element codes and finite difference codes and there are several commercially available packages which are available which can give you a solution to A D E this is also known as A D E advection diffusion equation.  So, you should appreciate the point that one dimensional equation will have its own limitations when you solve the real life problems. So, that is where you have to talk about del C by del t as a function of del C by del z del C by del x del C by del y. So, keeping the time domain constant how the distance domain is varying in terms of concentration becomes a real challenge alright. So, I hope this part is clear that there is a new term defined as K D and we have to obtain K D by somehow. So, this we will talk about a bit later. Let us understand what are the parameters or the factors which decide the type of contaminant transport mechanism. So, the first is grain size I have given you some very raw examples like sand and clay and what is the difference between the mechanism of contaminant transport in sands and clay advection diffusion alright. So, grain size is very important density is very important C by velocity is extremely important concentration of contaminant is very important viscosity of the fluid or this solute is very important hydraulic conductivity of the media is very important then comes factors affecting the behavior of contaminant. So, these are two different things these parameters influence the mechanism you agree. So, mechanisms are four advection diffusion dispersion and hydrodynamic dispersion. So, these are the parameters which are going to define what type of mechanism going to prevail in a system. Now, the factors affecting the behavior of contaminant or the fate of contaminant. So, the first one is contaminant itself whether it is reactive or non reactive clear or radioactive or decaying type there could be a contaminant which does not come out of the porous system it gets decayed completely within it alright. So, there could be a situation the second term would be soil condition what type of soil conditions you are talking about and of course, the mechanism which is going to govern. So, the whole idea of showing you these these points is what is the point I think this is what I wanted to demonstrate to you ultimately it boils down to the mechanism which is governing the contaminant transport. So, it is not a very easy and simple way of modeling though it appears to be because this term itself will take care of all these parameters plus many more parameters into account ok. Let me quickly run through if you if you want to do modeling what are the parameters which would be required. So, concentration C of a contaminant in the porous media can be defined by these factors. So, C is a function of viscosity diffusion coefficient sorption coefficient seepage velocity surface tension density of the fluid g value gravity 2 type of dimensions I have used here you are doing a course on centrifugal modeling. So, I am sure that you must you would have been using this type of equation which are nothing but pi Buckingham theorems. So, multiplied by the time and the soil properties soil properties happen to be lumped parameter it is very difficult to distinguish between one property and the property just like that. So, concentration of contaminant in the pore solution of the pore water is defined by these parameters where mu is the dynamic viscosity of the fluid d is the diffusion coefficient s is the mass adsorbed of the contaminant per unit volume b s corresponds to the interstitial flow velocity is nothing but seepage velocity t f is the surface tension of the fluid particle interface rho f is the density of the fluid g is the acceleration due to gravity l is the characteristic macroscopic length what is macroscopic length physical dimension. So, my question to you is if I am using or let me not ask you let me let me show you how it will vary you should try to catch the point that what is the difference between macroscopic dimensions and microscopic dimension.  So, all these parameters are required to form a pi Buckingham theorem how many parameters you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. So, out of 11 how many equations can be formed 10 clear the most vulnerable set of the equation would be with 9 unknowns if I make 2 parameters dependent on each other. So, that means, any contaminant transport problem will have at least 9 parameters which either you have to know beforehand or you have to determine or you have to compute it by some mechanism. So, this is just to show you the complexity of the problem when you talk about contaminant transport in porous media. Now, your colleagues from hydraulics cannot deal with such a complicated situation because what they deal with is all these things will have disappear there.  So, it is very easy to obtain it clear. So, there it is a subset of the problem which we are talking about. So, contaminant transport in porous media happens to be a very very broad problem though contaminant transport in free water supply happens to be a subset of it clear. So, just to give you an idea about how modeling is to be done. Now, when you do modeling you must have learned a lot in your centrifugate modeling course that you require some dimensionless numbers. So, these are the coefficients of contaminant transport mechanisms which you have to generate out of those 9 parameters which govern the contaminant transport. So, the first parameter is known as concentration number. So, concentration number is nothing but concentration divided by densities of fluid and this ensures similarity of concentration of you know homologous points in the sample and the prototype advection number. Advection number is nothing but seepage velocity multiplied by time divided by macroscopic or microscopic macroscopic that is right the physical length of the sample. So, this will ensure kinematic similarity of motion in the model and the prototype diffusion number diffusion number is nothing but D multiplied by T upon L square. So, L square upon T is nothing but inverse of D in dimension. So, this becomes a non dimensional number. So, this ensures similarity of diffusion process in the model and prototype. Capillary effects number most of my students are working in capillary effects on the soil. In fact, you may also be working in the same so, how do you define capillary effect number? The surface tension coming to the picture macroscopic length macroscopic length multiplied by the gravity effect and the fluid density. So, truly speaking this is nothing but the ratio of the surface tension force and the inertia forces. Inertia is nothing but because of density of the fluid. So, inertial forces divided by the surface tension forces are nothing but the capillary effects. So, this talks about similarity of the capillary effect in the model and prototype adsorption number how much is getting sobbed on to the system divided by density of the fluid. So, a very very dense fluid may have more sorption or less sorption. It is a difficult question to answer because again it will depend upon the activity of the fluid, but a good way of defining adsorption number would be a dense fluid like honey whether it will diffuse easily in the porous system or water will get diffuse into the porous system with some contaminants correct. So, that means, a denser material should have lesser sorption into the system. Similarly, your dynamic effect number.   So, this becomes a non-dimensional number. Now the way I look at these numbers is these are nothing but the controlling valves. What is the meaning of this? If I want to study what type of phenomena is going to occur in a porous system when a sudden contaminant comes in contact with it. If I use these numbers I get a very clear cut mathematical image of the mechanism which is going to prevail in the system. Otherwise you cannot perceive and visualize it, but if you are playing with these numbers it gives you a feeling that if number is between a and b this type of mechanism is going to prevail. If this number is between c and d this type of situation may prevail or may not prevail. That means, what you are doing is now you are one step very close to quantifying mathematically the mechanism which is going to govern in a porous media. So, remember what we have done? We have talked about different mechanisms. We have talked about the models. We have emphasized on how to get the parameters which are involved in the models and now we are talking about how to quantify the whole process. This is particular. So, there are 4 steps in contaminant transport mechanisms when we talk about contaminant transport in porous media. Well, there are few anomalies. What are the anomalies? Discrepancies. The discrepancy number 1 is the Reynolds number. You have been dealing with Reynolds number always when you talk about seepage flow. How do you define this term? It is inertial forces divided by viscous forces. So, this is nothing, but the inertial force rho f is the density of the fluid multiplied by seepage velocity multiplied by why microscopic why not microscopic that is right because of this is the seepage which is taking place through porous that is right. So, please remember that this is not the macroscopic number and then we use another word or another number which is known as Peclet number. So, Peclet number talks about concentration migration, particularly dispersion phenomena. So, you have seepage velocity multiplied by again the microscopic length of the sample specimen divided by diffusion coefficient. Now discrepancies in the way that truly speaking there is a school of thought which says that Reynolds number should also get modeled when you do different modeling exercise. But then a great respite is even if it gets modeled the Reynolds number is so low that even if you multiply by 300 it is always going to be less than 1. This type of analysis and debate was presented by Dr. Ashok Gupta in lot of his papers worked on the centrifuge modeling of seepage analysis. So, this is where we defended one analysis by saying that R e has to be always less than 1 otherwise this is not a flow through porous system. It becomes a open pipe flow where R e varies from 1 to 10 which is not the case with any soil or rock system. Now comes the second issue that is the Peclet number. So, Peclet number even if it is higher than certain n value n value is nothing, but acceleration or artificial environment condition. So, here also Pe is going to be less than 1 and order of magnitude of Pe and R e would be in 10 power minus 7, 10 power minus 6. So, any acceleration level which you may apply on the soil sample would not cross R e and Pe more than unity clear. So, I have defined these coefficients over here in the relationship between Pe and R e. So, if you just substitute these terms and you derive equation you will find that Pe equal to nu divided by rho f into d into R e. Now this becomes a coefficient which relates Reynolds number with Peclet number. Again I will repeat Reynolds number is nothing, but the number which controls seepage or the flow in porous system and Peclet number is the number which regulates transportation of contaminants from one point to another point. If there is no flow there will not be any contaminant transport except for the case when you are talking about diffusion. So, this is where R e becomes much less. So, mu is the viscosity of the contaminant, rho f is the density of the contaminant, d is the diffusion coefficient of the contaminant, rho f is the fluid density, b is the seepage velocity, l u is the characteristic microscopic lens such as particle size it is equal to d 10 or d 50 of the mean or the mean particle size of the system. How do you define mean particle size? If d 10, d 50 is known not average whereas, there are different ways of defining average particle mean particle size. The way I would like to define this is under root of d 10 into d 50. This is again depending upon different research groups and authors. So, as you say normally d 10 plus d 50 by 2 is never done. It is I know, but when you talk about the mean particle size it has to be a sort of a you know GP of the two terms. So, it is a very interesting world of researchers. Now, I will show you how these modeling can be done. Now, this paper was the presented by my students Sridhi Bhattan and Moran's at a conference. What we did is actually my dream is to develop this model further. If you plot Peclet number and Reynolds number on x and y axis, you have four types of contaminant transport mechanisms. So, depending upon in which zone the values are falling without doing much of you know analysis I can tell you immediately that what type of mechanism I am going to control. This is what actually I would have loved to do half way through. So, most of the points which we could do are falling in dispersion. It is very difficult to model soils to get some results in advection diffusion and diffusion zones though it looks very easy, but you make a sample and repeatedly you will end up because we did lot of analysis here 3, 3, 7 plus 10, 13, 15 about 45 samples we have tested here. Each point corresponds to almost 3 repetitions of 4 repetitions. So, advection is very easy to get. Now, in sense if I keep on adding clay, what is happening? I am traversing from right hand side to the left hand side. So, that means, Reynolds number is decreasing and so is Peclet number clear. So, I fall in this domain, but this domain itself is such a big domain where I can reduce Reynolds number, but then I should have expected increase in Peclet number. So, that becomes a modeling challenge. I am just trying to show here that two numbers can also be correlated with each other and if you have a sort of a electronic interface where automatically Pe and Re are recorded from a landfill and you have a database of this type where immediately you will come to know what type of mechanism is going to prevail in this landfill and you can take precautionary measures. Is this particular? Yes. In some of the situations, yes you can create. So, artificially you can induce Reynolds number which are much, much higher which are even Peclet numbers will also become very high because of that. So, these are situations which you can simulate, but the most trivial situation would be in this domain, but nature does lot of contaminant transportation only in this domain. So, all your salt water intrusion problems are somewhere here, a bit of them will be falling in advection diffusion. So, what is happening? Re is increasing at the cost of Pe. Here Pe is increasing at the cost of Re. So, these are perfect if this line goes in this direction it becomes a pure clay aquifer. If this line goes in this direction, it becomes a purely sanded aquifer. So, you can do modeling for a certain type of aquifer also if you have this type of a database, all right. I hope you must be clear by this time that how these parameters can be utilized in solving real life problems. So, let me quickly finish now sorption process. So, sorption is nothing, but you have any grain or a parking space in general where most of the cations come, molecules come, they get adhere to this, they get parked over here. So, in simplest possible form this is the sorption phenomena. So, it has two components absorption and adsorption. What is absorption? Atoms or molecules move into the bulk of a porous material, example the absorption of water by a sponge. Now, once this mechanism is over then the tendency of the system is to migrate into the molecules or atoms. Now, this is what is going to be adsorption. So, if you read the definition, atoms or molecules move from the bulk phase that is solid liquid or gas onto a solid or liquid surface. So, for the penetration. So, purification by adsorption where impurities are filtered from the liquid or gases by their adsorption onto the surface of a high surface area solid such as activated charcoal. So, these are basic difference between the two. Absorption still is a physical phenomena. However, adsorption has to be a physical, chemical, mineralogical phenomena. That means, this is where all the activities or the total activities of the system comes to the picture. This is particular. Stumps related to sorption are adsorbates that is the molecules that have been adsorbed onto the solid surface. Substrates or adsorbent, the surface to which adsorbates are adsorbed. In case of adsorbed cations tightly held on the surfaces of negatively charged dry clay particles, clay particle is substrate and cations are adsorbates. I am sorry it should be adsorbates. So, it is a good schematic diagram. These slides have been prepared by Sochit. So, you have a clay particle which is negatively charged and then the cations are adhering to this clay platelet. So, it is a electrical balance is there first of all that nullification of charge is there. So, this type of mechanism where the cations are getting pugged onto the clay particles is a sort of a sorption phenomena alright. So, clay particles are providing enough space for the cations to come and get pugged over there. The reverse mechanism is desorption that means, whatever gets out freely. So, the phenomena whereby a substance is released from or through a surface becomes a desorption phenomena. Process is the opposite of sorption and occurs in a system being in the state of sorption equilibrium between bulk faces alright. A good example of this would be you have these water filters which are normally used in the home. So, dirty water you have a sludge formation on the candle of the water filter alright. So, it is a simple absorption process first of all, but because of impurities which are quite active the tendency of this system would be to migrate into the candle or that calcium carbonate thing which is the candle. So, it migrates into it. So, suppose if you do not wash it for several months and then take fresh water supply and keep this candle over there what happened there is a reverse migration of all the sludge which is formed on the candle into the fresh water. So, this becomes a sort of a desorption process. Now, these mechanisms are normally used when you are dealing with remediation techniques in the real life. So, when the concentration of the pressure of substance in the bulk face is lowered some of the soft substance move to the bulk stage. So, these are the copybook style of defining the desorption process. Now, this is a slide which shows these processes in the simplest possible form you have the clay layers in which the cations are getting logged or bugged. So, they are strongly soft into system when the system is dry you add water to this with the hydration going on and this is detachment from the surface of the clay. And you keep on doing this process much more water if you add what happens all of these systems are free to come out. So, this is what I have written here that clay layers you have cations which are trapped into this these are nothing, but the adsorbed ions cations in the dry condition cations are strongly soft on clay particles you add a bit of water. So, water molecules make them quite hefty the tendency is to get detached from the clay platelet is a sort of a desorption process which has started. So, the water molecules wedged into the interlayer after adding water and this is the final stage this is the intermediate stage. So, the cations get fully hydrated which results in the adsorption from clay surface. So, this is how the sorption desorption mechanism keeps going in the nature alright. So, I will stop here today.


Hello. Can you hear me? Yes I can hear you now. Can you hear me all right? Yes I can hear you all right. Fantastic. Well thank you so much for doing this. Well I can leap straight into it so it's not to take too much of your time but you had from me the explanation about who we are and what the party is and so the context in which this will show is of course at our party conference and it's ahead of a debate around whether data driven technology can help create equality or is part of the problem or both things so that's the context and we'll just get a segment of this conversation for broadcast and we'll show you what it is obviously before we do. Okay this sounds great. So I'll have the entire recording right you're already recording and I'm free to publish it afterwards after you had your display and so time-wise I have two hours so we can talk about pretty much anything. Okay well we're certainly we're intending to have a much shorter exit but I'm happy to talk to you for longer because there's a lot I think I can learn from you so well thank you thank you very much. I'll begin as as for this segment now. Minister thank you very much for finding the time to talk to us today I'm very excited to talk to you because there are very few politicians who I would say are engaged in transformative politics and there are fewer still who are finding ways to harness technology to that transformation. I wanted to talk to you in the beginning about the sunflower mood there wasn't as much publicity around that in the UK as you might have imagined so would you mind starting by explaining the sunflower movement and your involvement in it because it was really something quite amazing. Certainly the sunflower movement was a occupant movement for 22 days in March to April 2014 and during those 22 days students and activists occupied the parliament and they did this for demonstration but not demonstration in a protesting sense but rather demonstration in a demo kind of sense and the reason of the occupation was that the MPs at a time were refusing to deliberate a trade service agreement with Beijing for constituents and so because of that the students did the deliberation for the MPs because they kind of went on strike so they occupied the parliament and did the deliberation with the people at the height of the occupy there's about half a million of people on the street and even more people online watching the live stream the real-time transcripts the various discussion boards and all the different products of this massive occupied movement and two things is distinguished this occupied movement from other occupied movements around the world. The first one I think is very important is that during the 22 days mostly nonviolent every day people converge a little bit more on what they think about the trade service agreement and this means that more than 20 NGOs concerning labor concerning equality of agendas concerning for example environmental protection and so on each had their own kind of corner around the occupied place but they were all linked with a kind of nervous system that channels all the consensus made all the points made all the people's feelings into a shared document that is shared by all the more than 20 NGOs in the occupy and the end result is that like cross-pollinating ideas people would just go from one NGO's boost to another over the course of the day maybe they will visit five different corners and at the end of the day people did a recap a synthetic document so by the beginning of the next day people just talk about other things but they did not yet have consensus and so that's the first distinguishing factor in that it converges rather than diverges and the second I think is equally yes sorry sorry to interrupt but so in turn there had been there had been a a dearth of democracy um you had a government that was not listening to the people and instead what you got through the occupy movement was not only people coming in to have them to make their views heard but you found a way of having a discussion that created greater understanding around the issue and greater consensus around the issue so you moved away from that that's exactly right and was that that's exactly right already and this is already using technology for this as well as live debate that's right so the second distinguishing factor is that we allowed people who participate in any corner in the street to view a real-time live streaming of what's happening inside the occupied parliament and there's also a live chat channel where people just type in what exactly they were hearing from the 20 or more um debate stations um so that people can just at a glance see what the topics are being debated as well as getting the consensus that's being made from this debate on the street and so this is a ICT technology but it is for enabling people to listen to hundreds of thousands of people rather than speaking to hundreds of thousands of people we often see social media or even television and radio used in a broadcasting manner that is to say it enables people to obey or follow the party line or to somehow you know get a talking points from one or two people with power but this is the inverse of that this technology enables tens of thousands of people to listen to one another and it enabled the people who did occupy in the occupied parliament to kind of listen to those people and get them their voice as a single voice so this is a deployment of what we call assistive civic technology that let people as points being heard in a way that is accountable so it's moving away from echo chambers and towards a way of a way of facilitating debate and a way of creating information which um you know sitting here in in England where we're now living with the results of a referendum which in some way looks like people power but of course was based on only partial and very polarized information is a very very interesting uh piece of history and and with an incredibly interesting outcome so so what happened after all of these debates so afterwards i think at the 21st day or so um the general occupiers as well as participants converged on the set of recommendations um to where the trade service agreement and um the head of the parliament the head of the MPs accepted every single one of them and so the occupy was a victory so the idea very simply put is that people want the treatment with spacing to be treated as any other foreign treaty to be deliberated by the MPs in exactly the same way and they're also called for a national forum on making a real-time responsive deliberation system modeled after the ICT system deployed doing the occupy so that people can look at any part of the budget look at any part of regulation and do e-petitions and so on so that they don't have to occupy again uh if some other controversial topic comes up and so during the national forum it was decided that we did a national e-participation platform called the joint platform and of the 23 million people in Taiwan about five million at the moment is using the joint platform five million five million people using it on a basis that helps form an active basis that that's right so about one quarter of people who can use internet of course that number can still grow but still I think we're performing much better than other countries and what was your role in this and you came into this as somebody with Silicon Valley experience which is also fairly a new politician yeah um so at the time of the occupy I was a independent consultant to a company called social text which is called a wiki company we make wikis we make microblogging we make a lot of so-called social media tools but for fortune 500 companies as well as large nonprofits in order to enhance their internal communication and make sure that the knowledge is captured within the organization rather than inside specific silos and so make basically would be something that's like um facebook plus twitter plus wikipedia but with the aim of getting people's things done in the flow of work rather than just keeping them on the website and watching as many advertisements as possible so it's the same set of technology social technology but with a very different goal in mind because it is deployed to people's you know business hours rather than off hours so that's my background I've been working with social text since 2008 so quite a long time and at the same time I'm also a consultant independent contractor in apple's theory team so I'm also working on machine learning on cross language understanding on semantic understanding and things like that so I bring my contribution to the occupying mostly by setting up the communication network and making sure that facts spreads faster than rumors now this is easier said than done because rumors have a way to provoke outrage and outrage makes people share messages even before they fact check them right and so the only way we discover that makes facts spread faster than rumors is to make facts fun is to make facts something that's interactive something that you can just type in your accompanying registration number or your tree you're doing and you see a very interactive graphics that shows exactly how the trade service agreement affects you and so of course all this are done by a wider civic tech community and my main role is just to maintain kind of the portal the information portal of the occupy movement and making sure that all the different endeavors that makes it possible to have informed discussion is aware of each other's existence as well as maintaining the back end infrastructure against the cyber security attacks and things like that I don't know of any other part of the occupy movement that's actually ended up in government anywhere in the world so you you actually you actually went from this this uprising this popular popular uprising to actually being in government and putting these things into practice from the top down even though what you're talking about is something with much more participation and civic engagement yeah it is somewhat comparable with the 15m movement in Spain where many occupiers at at the time was also becoming like Madrid mayors and also people in various important cities but you you are now digital minister so as I say you're bringing you're bringing all of this to bear as as not just something that is part of a protest but something that is everyday politics and that that's right because we see our dev demonstration as a demo right so now I'm deploying demo into production as we talk about this yes um when you were in Silicon Valley you also saw at close hand some of the difficulties with that culture you know one of the things that people worry about technology is that it's being made by a small and not very diverse group of people with certain ideas about what it can do do you do you worry about this as well and do you do you think that technology can be the answer to the work to the concerns around technology yeah it is a concern because at the beginning when we're doing the mobile version of the social text what we call signals which is very much like Twitter we didn't anticipate that it kind of has a effect on the habit of people like back in 2010 or so it's like if a person only installs one messaging system on their phones it actually increased their productivity but if a person installs three or four instant message systems it's like a cocktail effect on the mind because the mind would be constantly context switching and it actually from a mental health perspective puts people in a always adrenaline rush or a fear of missing out state that is not conductive to the kind of deep listening or deliberation that we were just talking about so we were part of the problem I guess and but we're I think also aware that it is possible to have technologies that reduce the demand on attention and indeed the inherent bias that certain technology has introduced in early 2000 I also participated in the so-called spam wars at that point people thought that email is helpless and email may soon go away because it costs nothing to send junk mail and with everybody's time and it also degrades the trust that people put on each other's messages around the internet but the solution to the spam problem was not a single top-down action a law or an act neither was it a single technological change neither was it at a protocol change neither was it a single intervention by any civil society rather it is all the different points that I talked about coordinating in a way that is accessible to all the stakeholders involved that every single action increased the cost by spammers just a little bit and reduced their expected reward just a little bit and taken together over maybe three or four years we delivered a coordinated action that made it much more manageable and now people don't complain much about spams anymore and I think this is one of the blueprints that I'm using in order to look at the manufactured addiction problem the inherent bias problem machine learning the people's distrust in general for example algorithmic decided outcomes and things like that all of it is much easier to solve if we get all the stakeholders on the same table in a continuous relationship and mapping out exactly what everybody stakes it and keeps it transparent and accountable just as we did in the internet society and related organizations during the spam war days so I think there are a set of technologies civic technologies that can help solving these problems but I don't deny that there are also actors that would like to maintain the monopoly precision persuasion for lack of better terms so this is an ongoing dialogue and also that if you are building these kinds of things it's very important presumably to have real diversity in terms of who is inputting to these technologies because otherwise they're going to reflect already and you talk about bias but there is presumably you would see a danger if there are too few women as as we know there are in stem for example that this this can replicate biases then in in terms of what is produced yeah when I founded my first startup in 1996 in Taiwan actually people majoring in computer science are working on IT and so on the gender ratio is very healthy it's close to one one so I think when I got online I discovered that the free software community the maker community and so on many women are forced to use male sounding nicknames not because they identify as transgender but rather they did is to avoid harassment and it's apparently a very important and significant issue on the western english speaking world and that took me completely by surprise because Taiwan is not like that so I think this is highlights a the importance of participation because in Taiwan we have different problems for example the indigenous people they don't participate enough in the design of everyday technology that affects them as are the other ethnicities because Taiwan is like 98% so the other ethnicities voices don't often get heard simply because of the language or the lived experience differences and so I think one of the main points in diversity is not just getting sufficient number of people although that helps like our spokesperson now is a indigenous women our president is also partly indigenous and she's a woman and not anyone's daughter or wife we think this is very important but rather than just diversity I think real inclusion means that all the different people participating in the end result of the designs such as for example in our k212 education would emphasize that people use technology to work with children they must prefer open source technology that is to say that students have a say in where the technology is doing like the access to machine learning and computation resources if there must be no difference between the city and indigenous or rural areas and things like that and also broadband as a human right what I'm saying is that it is very important to have diversity in the community that makes things but I think even more important is to have full inclusion in a set of users in a set of people who use these technologies so they can fully inform where the technology is doing and in in so doing democratize the production of technology itself thank you that's an incredibly useful way of looking at it and I'm interested if you have any particular thoughts about how we as a small party operating in a system that is in many ways stacked against us might use technology ourselves or think about using technology ourselves I'll give you one example there was a lot of concern here around the Cambridge Analytica controversy and what that actually showed although this again got very little coverage was not just about that one incident but in fact there are many people who legitimately provide such services you know where they get a great deal of big data around the electorate and they analyze it and they are able to zero in on what that means and the parties the bigger parties that can afford to pay for that therefore have an advantage when it comes to particularly in a first pass the post system in terms of targeting their voters so one of the things we have to think about is how we can be clever and do things do things that that try and mitigate some of these inbuilt disadvantages under which we we are acting do you have any any particular tips for us about what that might look like so in the Gov-zero movement which is not just about supporting sunflower occupies but also about making more attractive and fun open alternatives to the government websites for all the government websites that Gov-zero people don't think are useful or you know attractive enough they end in GOVTW those government websites and so like the legislative is LIGOVTW and so the Gov-zero people would just make a new domain name LIGOVTW basically by changing to a zero you get into the shadow government that is more attractive and more participatory and so one of the recent interventions that Gov-zero community did which get a lot of press attention is the councilor's voting guide which includes the mayor's voting guide because we have a local election coming up in about 90 days from now and the councilor's voting guide is designed to maximize the people's informed information before going into the voting booth so not only does it include all the voting records and all the you know political career over a candidate's career what they voted what they advocated and what are their disclosures spending and things like that but also it's innovates by if you go to your precinct or your region it lists all the councillors in a random order and with random color and what this means is that all the smaller parties candidates and all the independent candidates get as much the same coverage as the large parties in the voter's guide and they also crowdsource for newcomers their platforms in the form of a small short youtube video or they also allow people to sign in in their social media profiles and vote for the people they want and they even have some grants for people who receive the most number of people's likes and things like that so in in all these cases they act with what we call the ACE principle A means actionable it means that if you support a small parties candidate there's something that you can do with five seconds time there's something you can do with your five minutes time there's something you can do with five hours time that's the actionable part and it's connected meaning that whenever you do this it raises your relative status among your PS so that people would feel proud to endorse a candidate or to ask a candidate a relevant question or to make a summary of a candidate's position and so on that makes it social so that people see on their social media profiles all the time those independent candidates for example there is a so-called oba-san coalition oba-san is a japanese loan word literally means elder women and so there is a loose coalition of elder women councillor candidates who are all running for the first time that maximize the use of social media through this use of the councillor's voting guide and they're not just doing it on the internet but rather it crowdsources the agenda that people care about on the internet and hold face-to-face deliberations based on the topics that the people on the internet feel as important and that bring us to the third which is extensible extensible means like you know the me too hashtag nobody controls that hashtag everybody is allowed to add to it without asking permission so this kind of permissionless innovation also lies behind zero philosophy because the entire code the entire data set everything is under what we call creative commas zero which means no rights reserved everybody is allowed to take it to wildly different directions and to make mix remixes and re-remixes and so on and so we're already seeing a lot of local campaigns that use this as a canvassing tool and that develops a much more targeted way based on the collective information on the councillor's voting guide so but that's pretty particular to taiwan i'm not sure whether how much that helps you but this is how we're doing it no well i think that i i think there are some wonderful ideas in there how feasible they are i don't know just because you know different legislative environment and different cost base for these things but i absolutely believe that we should be exploring all of this and and seeing seeing what we can do because it's not it's not as if technology is going to go away you know so that's the other thing it's about it's about what what we see becoming towards us um what what do you what we can see is the as the sort of the technologies that are heading our way that might make a might make a difference as well so um in this um in the social innovation scene here in taiwan we're seeing a lot of work around mutual distributed ledges i try to avoid the blockchain world because it is just one of the many technologies that can yeah that can deliver a mutual distributed ledger right so that and the newer generation distributed ledgers they're not even using chains anymore they're using acyclic grav and so on but without getting too technical i think what's important is that it's a ledger that people can add to but not delete that people can audit but they cannot censor and that is the important part of it it's not the the ico part of it although i'm sure that people are interested in that as well but for my purposes uh what this means is is a relatively cheap way to build accountability to build something that people can reasonably sure that will not be changed or to be censored or modified and so we're already seeing it in use for example in campaign donations and even in disaster relief donations for example a lot of taiwan people donated to the nipal flooding disaster and people want to know that their donation is being used in a conscious and accountable way across many different actors in many jurisdictions and previously to buy this kind of accountability is very expensive because you have to hire i don't know kpmg or equivalent uh you know accountants in all the different jurisdictions to make sure that the numbers add up and it's pretty expert language and people cannot easily verify it by themselves so they're still doing that but they're now also using distributed ledgers to make sure that even if the crowd sourcing or crowdfunding like go away they can still reconstruct the entire accountability trail from the ethereum public distributed ledger alone and we're also seeing a lot of people doing public discourse this way because they know they will not be censored by editors they will not cave to pressure by you know powerful sovereign entities if they try to censor them just even attempt of censorship will be very apparent on the distributed ledger and is often a lost cause so it's also important to get people's voice heard in a way that preserve integrity so i think accountability and integrity are the two not often advised but i think it is actually a primary value that distributed ledgers offer us today much more than its financial potentials one of the things that strikes me about a lot of conversation about what distributed ledger technology which yes people here mostly know as blockchain would create is that people don't always think about the different impacts for on gender and the different ways this would affect us so for example there some women and certainly people from minority populations for example who would be very worried by something that that was irrevocable and which identified them and held information about them irrevocably because they have spent a lot of time actually trying not to be seen or not to be defined in a particular way how should we approach these different strains if you like in evolving technology where you know that the art you can see the beauty of something that can't be censored and can't be changed for in some cases but then it may have other unintended consequences that's right so the two use cases that i mentioned one for the use of public charity donations and the second for people's public discourse those two i think are definitely in the public sphere and not at all in a private or friend or whatever family is setting i would not advise the use of mutual distributed ledgers at this point in time for any actions that you just mentioned that has a privacy part in it i understand that there's many mathematicians working on privacy preserving so-called zero knowledge mathematics that they are far from mature at this point and so if people are intending to use distributed ledgers in a way that interacts with private data sensitive data that was limited distribution and things like that there are other cryptographic tools such as end to end messaging and you know publicly auditable forward secrecy preserving chat tools like for example personally i use wire but signal also has a lot of users and things like that that are much more useful than distributed ledgers for this setting so i think one part of literacy or one part of awareness is just to make sure that people understand the material of technology and the property that they uphold because code in this case is like law and not like jurisdiction law it's like physical law each different technology imbues with itself a different set of physical law that makes things easy that makes things possible that makes things impossible so i think one of the most important thing when we did our k212 curriculum is learning with the children how they want technology to behave and then make technologies or allocate technologies that respond to their expectations about a social setting and not the other way around many buzzword makers would like it to be other way around advising that is actually detrimental to the autonomy of people with various different ideas and different social reflections that seems to me a very important principle for anybody who is trying to make policy around these issues to to understand that aspect um can i ask you about i think it's called polis uh we were talking before about the ways in which you were able to find consensus from very strongly polarized viewpoints is polis something that we as a party could be using and what would it look like if you applied it to some some very polarized debates that there are within feminism for example yeah polis is great if you may use it as a agenda setting tool by that i mean that is surfaces what people's common values are despite their differences and it enables people to find possible solutions that follows those common values what is not so great is to work out the details of those ideas for that you need other tools um but the great thing about polis and other technologies that i'm sorry i'm just going to interrupt briefly to yes so polis i mean for people who haven't read or heard about it it's a it's a platform yes that right so so i'll just explain it very quickly um so polis is like a it's like a open questionnaire uh when you go to polis you're seeing one of the few what we call seed questions that ask simple yes or no questions about how you feel about one particular issue um the first time we use polis in towering government we talked about uh private right sharing in the form of uber x so for example the first time when one goes to polis one can see a yes or no question like i think um private passengers still need to have protection from accidents by commercial insurance providers and you can click yes or no on that particular sentiment and as you do so there is a face of the crowd uh underneath this yes or no question that shows the clusters the people who think similarly about things and you can see all your facebook and twitter friends if you sign in if you don't sign in you see random famous people uh and how they uh locate within the different clusters so perhaps there's people who care about innovation there's people who cares about safety there's people who care about insurance there's people text about taxation and so on then they will form different clusters and as you answer yes or no questions your avatar will move toward the cluster that most resemble your ideas but the beauty of polis um there are two um distinguishing factors first there is no reply button you can just press yes or no like upvote and download other people's sentiments but you can never reply to them so trolling at hominid attacks and so on has no place on polis if you can get 5 000 people voting exactly the same way there's still one dot in the two-dimensional map so it doesn't pay to troll in a polis environment that's the first thing and the second thing is that after you answer a few yes or no questions you can contribute your own feelings and the more resonance you have for your own feelings the higher the score is so it's still engaged people in competitive way that people compete to win resonance people across the aisle so it's just to win that that that competing to win people over to their viewpoint so it's almost right so basically like a game almost like a game yeah it is actually a game so just to make it more visual here is how it looks like i hope you can see the screen and so on the top you can see one yes or no question and on the below you have an avatar moving as you answer and you can see the cluster of people and after a few weeks we always see something like this where people identify the devices things that they agree to disagree but people spend far more time on consensus statements that they want to win over people from other aisles and other clusters and so whenever we see a shape like this which is always actually we always know that people want to spend much more time to work out the details of what they feel as important as everybody and it also lets people know that although there are a few like five devices question that tells people apart no matter which groups you are there's like 99 percent of people 98 percent of people who share the common values after all but on normal social media people spend it's like flip around people say most of your time arguing their differences while spending very little time arguing about their consensus so um is that is that platform something that that anyone can use oh yeah it is entirely open source and uh we have a instance running here in the taiwan national government um but you don't have to be a Taiwanese citizen you can still use our instance but you can it's easy to set up your own if you know a technological people who can set up a machine yeah as we've been speaking I've been imagining the very few people that we actually have in our in our team with their heads in their hands because I they know I'm going to come away from this conversation going we should do polish we should do polish should be um as you say the the websites that look like government websites but I actually have the information in them that the government websites don't you know but that all of those things we've found like a lot of work so my question to you is how how is this actually done practically who is doing the work here yes so um we actually start normally with a easier version which is not Polish and it's called Slido actually Slido is something that I use for all my public lectures and so I just came up from a conference called Tai Chi which is a Taiwan computer human interface conference and the Slido idea is similar to polis you go to slido.com you enter a number or a code and you get to start asking questions unlike polis there is no clustering there's no moving around but you can still like each other's questions and you can make things that people like the most flow to the top and similarly there is no reply button and similarly the only way to get something floating to the top is not attacking the current top question or top idea but actually proposing something that resonates with more people so Slido is best used in a town hall setting with 200 or 2000 people in the same room synchronously while polis is best used over weeks several weeks time so that people have more time to come up with nuanced statements so we often mix the two for example we will have a kickoff meeting where the people in the civil service people who care about this the activists the various stakeholder groups and so on we first do a kickoff meeting where we talk about how to define the topic of this conversation for example just the name private right sharing while charging people for it took us like three meetings to arrive to this definition for example we had another important conversation on polis where we again took two or three pre-meetings talk where we talk about non-consensual distribution of intimate images so like everywhere it was hotly debated because people want each stakeholder group to feel as comfortable as possible with the definition of the name and so for this kind of meeting we don't use polis we use regular teleconference or face-to-face discussion with deliberation facilitators and with Slido so that people can feel comfortable raising their points in those face-to-face meetings without you know the people who hoard the microphone taking all the time about it but then after a few such meetings where we then converge on the well-defined topic of what we can talk about then each stakeholder goes back to their group and we give them the same URL the same web address for polis in the same time so that people can share at the same minute and it's important because if people come to polis and they see like they're alone in one corner while 90 percent of people was dominated by some other infection they will be turned off and they will not share the polis conversation and so it's important that a balanced number of stakeholders gets the polis conversation at same time and we find ourselves saying after I don't know a month or so any popular opinion any resonating feeling that surface in the polis that's convinced a super majority of people meaning that in all the different cluster it convinced the majority the more resonating it is the easier for us to use this as an agenda for our next multi-stakeholder meeting which is usually live streamed and which the facilitator just checks the consensus from the people one by one with the stakeholders saying the people have spoken so what do you feel about it is this feasible it is possible if it is what actions are we committing to deliver on those shared values and so this is a three-part thing the first one is a stakeholder building trust deciding on exactly what topic to talk about the longer asynchronous polis stage which usually lasts for three or four weeks until we get a set of consensus and then the same stakeholders or even more stakeholders because people become aware of it after the fact go back to the same room live stream or at least take a recording or transcript and everybody responds just to the points from the polis that gets everybody's consensus and then we find ourselves into coordinated action so this is how often it's done in a v-time one lesson and then and then at the end of all of that you might have a vote on something in in the way that you would you would expect in a democracy presumably so you you go through this process of of deliberation and and moving people using both direct surprisingly um barely about 20 percent of v-time cases led into a law change uh in which case of course the parliament need to do uh their conversation and they need to vote on it but they mostly know that it's already the people's consensus so other than one case the other cases the mps just you know accepted the the consensus on polis but on the other hand the other 80 percent which is regulatory change policy change or even behavior change it doesn't need a full conversation by the parliament so just people committing to the actions deliver and work through those actions and they hold themselves accountable to it and that's it and so for many things like for example cyberbullying um what we did was not making a new law but rather making sure that each ministry and each department uh deliver their responsibility in doing um their part of work against cyberbullying and so it doesn't always lead to a vote maybe just one in five cases led to a vote you said you were using it on a consultation around the sharing of image of the non-consensus intimate images that's right images might refer to as as revenge porn for example yeah that's right uh that was the initial name actually um but then uh people um pointed out that it's often not porn and uh calling it porn actually um obscures the original image collection which was to show intimacy and not at all for arousal uh or not always for arousal it is mostly to show intimacy so people eventually change the name to to NCII um I'm neutral on this matter as I must uh but this is just how it happened in Taiwan so I think in NCII it's very interesting also because um people started talking uh on it as a primarily affecting women um thing but then we discovered that there's also um NCII cases uh around lgbt uh groups there's also uh NCII um things in basically anywhere that has a unequal potentially oppressive power structure uh NCII is used as one of the power vehicles and so while women are of course uh one of those groups they're not the only group and uh this is the idea of intersectionality right people are vulnerable on various different parts uh and and any um humiliation or any power struggle in any of those intersectional parts um can reinforce each other's um power when we want to talk about this saying this is wrong and we don't have to resort to calling it um you know pornography or calling it um indecent image or things like that because people need to have control of their own intimate images uh no matter which gender or which social status they are and so I think this is a more inclusive way of having a dialogue because stakeholders just um discover this conversation and then uh we learn about news stories that we did not anticipate that they are also victims of NCII that's completely fascinating um I am very aware that I'm talking to you for much longer than I intended to but um no it's fine it's fine there are so many things here that that I want to know about um I mentioned before your um your that you actually grew up in in Silicon or you came to Silicon Valley ridiculously young didn't you um well 19 is 19 is not ridiculously young uh I I stayed in Germany for a year when I was 11 uh and then one year in the valley when I was 18 or 19 um so so no I'm mostly based in Taiwan actually oh I thought you'd uh so I may be misinformed here I thought you had founded a startup very young I did I did uh when I was 15 actually that was my first startup and then a series of startup but no it was yeah well it got invested eventually by Intel and and was one of the dot-com stories in Taiwan but at that time um I think everything is very international and then we don't call ourselves a Silicon Valley company we're still at that time mostly based in Asia um but yeah it's my first startup when I was 15 right yeah uh but I mean I've been wondering um I'm very glad that you're in Taiwan and doing what you're doing but you know there was part of me that was wishing that you were in America maybe doing finding ways to um revitalize the democracy there right now yeah we we hope actually um workshops in New York City and many people in the NYC and actually also people from 18F from the federal government and we also talk about people from the U.S. digital service and and usual suspects and and I think um there's still a lot of people doing useful work around civic participation and open government especially on a state and city level because to think about it Taiwan is actually just a larger city the northmost city Taipei and the south in Gaosheng taking high-speed rails is just an hour and a half so while we're 23 million people admittedly is on a relatively small um geographic island uh which is why we can sit problem as a human right and so on but it also means that the technologies we develop um are mostly scaled uh to this geographic scale and to maybe uh five million people give or take and which in the United States is you know just maybe have a New York state or something like that so I think it makes sense to start our experiments and start our coordination and workshops and so on on this um self-ruling to a degree um cities or states uh in this kind of size sorry I just lost the sound for a second there okay well I'm recording my side of the sound so we can always stitch everything together yes no no that's good I just just at the end you froze for a second um I'll I'll finish with a question that we're going to go on and debate at this women's equality party conference and that's really whether um data-driven technology can actually help to resolve inequality do you have views on that issue yes strong views also um well good right I I I think data agency data as a relationship and not as an asset um is something that even with the GDPR many policy makers still have not um internalized uh this view on data um and and I'm not just quoting GDPR because uh in Taiwan the Privacy Protection Act the PIPA says the same thing it basically says if a organization or institution holds my data it begins a relationship where I can always ask what's happening with this data I can update it if they want it to be used in a way that goes beyond the original collection purposes I need to be given a chance to be informed and even update about it because the alternative is just to have a pale shadow of a um data-driven um simulacrum as me four years ago a small uh you know part of my behavior that would be extrapolated often wrongly about my current status and uh if we see data as an asset and not a relationship uh we will end up with the data that are there but uh are basically reinforcing biases not just from our past selves but also from past social conditions and this is very important to see that only a living relationship between the data so-called producers and so-called data processors and so-called data um users or consumers um they need to trust each other through a accountability framework that enables constant interrogation constant relationship between all those different people involved and only at that time can we get the agency of the people back to the people so-called producing the data for collection and I think if the people producing data or people collecting data are generally aware of this then they see them their contributions as in the comments for example in Taiwan we're now working with the Mozilla Foundation on a project called Common Voice which is basically us reading aloud random fragments of public domain text and basically informing the machine learning algorithm so they can recognize the different accent the different ways people use language even ethnic minorities indigenous people and things like that instead of forcing everybody to speak in an accent that most resembles whatever the original voice actors that the machine learning company is contracted with and so this commas that resembles the way people actually speak are entirely done by voluntary contributions and with the people knowing that they can also use the voice data in this commas for whatever purpose they like and they can also update it and reflect what they want things to to go through again democratization of this technology and if this is in the commas if this is managed by a social enterprise or a cooperative that everybody can openly join then this is seen as something that shares everybody's stewardship responsibilities but also rights but if on the other hand the collection itself is opaque if on the other hand the collection itself makes biased assumptions that people are not aware of not even the data scientists themselves are aware of then we get a situation where like we get a lot of food we feed it into a machine learning algorithm but there's no nutrition labels we don't know that whether they highest get overdose on one thing or another and then the data agency will be much harder to be built as a kind of ad hoc or post facto way because the mathematics is just not there yet so it need to be privacy enhancing by design and if people choose to contribute to the commas this is by their voluntary action and again the stewardship need to be designed in the beginning not as a tack on kind of law or regulation because that doesn't work frankly speaking thank you that's such an excellent answer great way to set the scene for the debate and incredibly useful insights into what we might be doing so thank you again so much for speaking to me well thank you so i'll send you my and our voice recordings and you send me the video recordings on your end so we'll have a very high quality stitched version okay so thank you so that's right thank you bye


coil That looks nice. Oh that felt I look really good. That looked really good Okay, so you've got the shot too much like this you actually set up and hit it pretty well So see right here.  How'd that feel? It looked better to me pull it up stay coiled That was a lot better day one. What do we do? We did an evaluation We looked we introduced a lot of things and we focused on the full throw because we really want to get in a sense Of what she was doing, you know again body awareness is so critical for throwers Or inside of my collarbone that line. That's the line you want. I'd call this drill a simple elevator drop Okay, heal up and push the hip. Oh That's okay, so don't hyper extend it because watch hyper extend it again There you go. Look at the difference. You see how your hip That was a lot better good you feel the difference better Good on the second day what we started to do is break down our six pillars in more depth And we're going through our pillar connection process So we're really starting to emphasize some Mechanical details at the finish and she could really see again now understanding where she's been and what kind of position She was in and what she's doing the six pillars again We talk about are really designed to help people understand and see the mechanics of the throw really understand what we're trying to do It have a good understanding of good mechanical positions and tail and how you're supposed to be moving So now you can see and identify what's wrong There you go over it That was better. I'll put it down and punch. Yep That was better. It was a little better Close that was better good you feel the difference that time Much better. Look at that. That was nice. This is David Nicole came in from Saskatoon, Canada and in Saskatchewan I appreciate you making the trip and I just wanted to kind of ask you a couple of quick questions How you liked in being going into more depth on the throwing chain reaction system What you thought of our three training days go ahead. Yeah, tell me what you thought of it as a throw We did so much. We got so much done in such a short amount of time. We really transformed my glide I kind of wasn't really knowing what positions to be in so we went through all the pillars Finding what position to be in and connecting it all together and getting drills to really get that hammered in Good. And did you think it was you said it was a nice compliment you accomplished a lot more than you thought you would yeah Okay, good, and it was easy to understand. Hopefully. Oh, that's the whole objective Especially having you here with me to really like personalize it for my body and the way I move it really helped Very effective. It's given me as a coach very specific things to look for and I'll absolutely use the online resources as well So we can follow up breaking it down into the pillars gives us checkpoints that we can break the throw down into more manageable Bites. Yeah, it's really added to my toolkit to One of the things I'm going to point out so as he comes in again We're trying to stay a little straighter so I'm going to have them when he winds up and we keep the hips straight We're just going to have them


Here's a real softball question. What's the optimal rate of tax on capital income? Closer to the tax rate on other income than to zero Would be Would be would be my Answer to that a fair amount of capital income reflects rents of one kind or another capital income is Financially held by those at the high end There's a fair amount of what's really capital income in the form of unrealized capital gains that never gets taxed so I think the right aggregate capital income tax rate is Closer to what would go with a comprehensive income tax Then it is to the alternative idea that Capital income taxation is just a way of taxing future consumption and therefore you should tax future consumption and present consumption At the same rate and the tax rate should be zero if we think about the 1980s There are a lot of models from that time some coming from your research Where you have an infinite horizon model with the zero tax rate on capital income at some point enough capital accumulates So that even wages are higher and there's a kind of steady-state long-run argument. That's still the number should be zero What has changed that makes those models less applicable? Is it that we think the elasticity is different or is it it's some other variable? What's what's changed in our knowledge or your understanding at the technical level there's been some mathematical work Showing that some of the results that you're referring to for the 1980s. You're just mathematically wrong. That's one part I think the second and more consequential part is That the premise of those models was essentially that the supply of capital was infinitely elastic and so you would Whatever the tax rate you would drive capital to the point where the after tax rate of return was some fixed number And that just now looks like a very poor description of reality. We've seen real interest rates fluctuate substantially and We just don't see that when real interest rates are higher Savings is lots higher and when real interest rates are lower Savings is lots lower in the way that many people including me in the early 1980s would have expected and so in the absence of That kind of evidence. I think the argument is Very much attenuated would have someone said well for the special 20-year period We lived through Bernanke's East Asian savings glass So there was always enough capital real rates were very low Arguably for demographic reasons that's starting to end and we'll end up back in an era Where actually the supply of capital with respect to the rate of return will be high again Is that possible unlikely too far away to matter? first One word one shouldn't should never use in economics is never So I don't want to preclude any possibility completely second You you uncharacteristically Made an analytic conflation there you conflated the idea that The saving that the savings rate would fall for a variety of reasons With the idea that the savings rate would become more elastic Which is a separate it sure is a separate issue I don't see any reason to think the savings rate will become more elastic and With respect to the savings rate falling my reading of the evidence would be different I think that the structural factors driving low interest rates Including longer life expectancy, which makes people save More increase in security more inequality are more likely to be Semi-permanent than they are to prove transient and I think a variety of the factors holding down investment The demographic factor the fact that you can buy an enormous amount of capital for a very low cost Think about my iPhone all of that I think operates in the direction of Meaning That we're likely to have this phenomenon of low real interest rates and secular stagnation for quite a long time to come


Everybody forced here ripping 20 21 eminence football hobby case number 25 random hits style We waited a bit to break this one man. Thank you guys for filling up. Thank you for your patience as always Yeah, never like to break things late, but something like this Let's see. Let's see. It's worth the wait, right? It's worth the wait 10 names 10 hits in this case Dylan's gonna type minutes we go We'll do the random with the very end to see who is getting what? Holy cow, dude Shield shield shield shield shield shield shield Don't I need that? All right I'll just show that it's sealed obviously It's also sealed inside this case 2021 eminence football Like a Brady shears Fire There's lots of styrofoam in here what's always drives me nuts I get it But I just I hate styrofoam It's a very like not fun thing. Oh my god The noise the Queens of the box Yeah, yeah All right, well That might be as good as it gets I get home later Here we go Big foam as always big foam Diamond guarantee I'll go with one of the diamond cards in the box Guarantees that the diamonds are authentic Okay, then all right We're gonna start with a Lance all worth auto three of five Lance all worth auto three of five We'll go safety action right there where to go next Let's go here. Yeah, we'll go with Eric Dickerson now auto one of ten One of the best running backs to do it Colt and Ram legends Do I want to pull a cut auto to people I cut auto and a shield that'd be pretty cool Eric Dickerson auto one of ten Another legendary running back here patch auto. It's Terrell Davis patch auto three of three Beautiful Broncos like like the logo patch from the chest not like the actual Bronco, but you guys know what I'm saying Three of three with the emerald foil patch auto Terrell Davis TD. He's probably in the hall of fame There's a lot of other people that are questionable to be in the hall of fame. Just put just put TD in Yeah, Eminence is crazy. These are all like 240 point cards, too. Yeah, this is like Eminence is noise noise Couple more cards in here. All right, we got a Dak Prescott patch auto ten of ten Your old Dak There's a smudge on the you can I don't know if you guys can see there. It's like on the inside of the mag It's not on the card patch auto Dak Prescott beautiful Cowboys card Gorgeous man to Coda Coda rain Cowboys need him back if they need if they got a shot at anything this year, man Ten and ten on the back and even then he's the player really well We're gonna finish the top half of the break nicely. We've got Tom Brady Super Bowl silver bar ten of ten Yeah, buddy, that's gonna be a nice one. Good luck to that one in the random Tom Brady Troy ounces silver ten of ten. Hey, I was saying Brady earlier.  You know get on the silver metal bar Silver metal or you know gold Heck yeah, dude. Good luck on the Brady ten of ten Look in Brady Super Bowl or the 53. That's the last one he won, right? Pat with the pass with the pass 451 what are we gonna? I mean if we end up with a Brady up top we got to have some gas down here, right? Yeah, yeah, geez dude That's so that's so ridiculous. I don't know what order to go in. I'm just gonna pick one up. I guess Look at that silver bar auto Joe Montana seven out of ten Joe Montaignea Super Bowl silver bar auto seven of ten Joe Montaignea as a 49er because he never did anything with the cheese. I mean he was alright with the cheese There we go Joe Montaignea That's the first that's the first one. I decided to pick up out of the bottom This one's probably very close to it though silver bar auto John L. Way five of eight John L. Way silver bar auto five of eight Holy cow We are heating up with some goat quarterbacks right now Bronco's legends in this case to a TD in L. Way. Let's start here Man the last few are pretty wild. Let's start here. I thought the camera. It's all good. It's all good We've got an RPA of Justin Fields eight of ten three color patch That is a crisp card Justin Fields RPA eight of ten three color patch. Oh Yeah, man, I know he his numbers are I was talking to Dylan earlier his numbers are gonna look great this year But he's been pretty good so far considering the circumstances there like they're winning games He's making the plays when they need to be made I mean who's number one receiver mooney Belish Jones or something Yeah Cole Comet is nowhere to be found. I mean it's literally him He is him you guys As the youngings say eight of ten RPA Justin Fields we've got two more We've got two more. Oh, yeah equanimious. That's right equanimious Oh boy I'll go I don't know. No, I'll go. Oh, it's the top one. That's the top one This is tough you guys That these are pretty close to me so we'll start here Platinum one of one jumbo diamondado Aaron rogers That is a stunning card Congrats to whoever gets that one. Good luck everybody Jumbo diamond one of one auto Aaron rogers four-time MVP A card as interesting as he is as a person That's gorgeous That was a tough call between the last two. It was a very tough call.  We had montana elway fields rogers mac jones Dak A couple other legends in there as well. Goodness gracious, dude Very happy as a patreon that he avoided major injury Great. That's just nuts And that is the end of the box. Let me go ahead and get this random ready everybody. Thank you very much for joining again And again, thank you for your patience Good luck on this random Very happy that he's gonna be back in like two three four weeks or so Not only that just for like the future like not as i'm not saying the pets are Pats are gonna like make a run out of this year, but just for like avoiding major injury is a good thing All I think is i made this prasca operating montana elway fields cool Okay Got all our names in there Just a second make sure I have one other thing set up because I did not set up for group breaks tonight To set up for personals one sec guys cool Let's roll the dice through the random. We're gonna randomize the names and then the hits the same amount of times and put them side by side To see who gets what? a Eight that's a two and a six eight times one two three four five six seven eight John a down to tyler b eight times on the hits one two three four five six seven eight All worth down to terrell davis Now you go john a with the all worth and the dickerson tyler b with the dac Hang why the justin fields rpa david b the elway silver bar auto graph with the tom brady silver bar 10 of 10 mark s with the mac jones emerald jumbo diamond auto three of three and the erin rogers platinum jumbo diamond auto one of one mark huge congrats And thank you for joining john n with the montana silver bar auto and tyler b with the terrell davis patch auto I'm gonna get these results posted to the site Thank you everybody for joining Congrats on the hits


RealisticGaming here and today we're being guys another Thomas horror game, which is Five Nights at Thomas's 2. I have played a Five Nights at Thomas's rehydration. It was pretty scary. It was a pretty fun time. So let's check it out and see how this goes. I don't think it's by the same developer actually or might be a fan-made game. I'm not sure. Okay, night one. To the new location of Thomas's Pizza Railway, we used to have a location in U.S. by Wisconsin, but that's not important. We moved for some legal reasons. I might tell you on some other night, but you're the new security guard at Thomas's Pizza Railway. You'll be working the night shift and I'm just here to tell you what you need to do, so show me your first night. It should be pretty easy. That's what they all say. So first of all, this shiny flashlight set up all three of the doors. Do I do it? If you're into closing, if you actually see them, you need to close the doors. Oh, oh, and don't use too much of them. Bro, what the- Oh, what the heck was that? How do you- Oh, okay. Okay, use the flashlight with the control. There you go. You're welcome. Do the show. Oh, that's great. Okay. Okay. Okay, you're welcome. Okay, you're welcome. Yes, thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. I'll take it. Okay. Okay, you're welcome. All right. Thank you, thank you. So, uh, show me your first night. It should be pretty easy, uh, trust me. Yeah, frickin' right! First of all, uh, just shine your flashlights at, uh, all three of the doors in them. Uh, but if they get too close, and if you actually see them, you need to, uh, close the doors. Oh, oh! And, uh, don't use too much power, though. Only use them when necessary, along with the flashlight. Oh, and, uh, don't use the power. Um, unlike the old restaurant, um, you had to put the coal in the furnace manually. At the new restaurant, we had, um, we put a lot of money into getting a newer furnace. You only need to click a button, and it puts coal for you. Uh, you'll find it, um, oh, and we're gonna find it, uh, we have some extra money, uh, we put in, uh... Oh, Thomas, oh, they're, dude, I'm surrounded. Oh, we did have too much money. Oh, Thomas was right there. We only could put a few... I have no coal! We'll find the furnace. No frickin' way, I'm dead. What did you say? I'm dead, I'm dead, how may I not dead? Oh, um, one more important thing. I'm gonna get you out of here when I knew it. I'm not gonna lie, this one is a little tougher than the other one I played. Your first night should be pretty easy, uh, trust me. Oh, great. So, first of all, uh, there's some shiny flashlights at, uh, all three of the doors, um... Um, but if they get too close, and if you actually see them, you need to, uh, close it. Oh! Oh, oh! Little creeper. And, uh, don't use too much time. I quit. Stop this madness, man.  The new location of Thomas' feature railway. Man, like, so much going on. Wait, what happened in Wisconsin? Oh, my. No, please. Oh! No! Dude! Thomas is not moving. And it's manually at, uh... I'm starting to believe this is impossible, man. Like, what the heck? I don't even get paid enough to do this, man. Welcome to the new location of Thomas' feature railway. Uh, we used to have a location in, uh, U.S. by Wisconsin, but that's not important. Uh, we moved for some legal reasons. I will, uh, I might tell you on some other things. But, you're the new security guard at Thomas' feature railway. You'll be working the night shift, and I'm just here to tell you what you need to do. So, uh, show me your first night. It should be pretty easy. Oh, my God, Thomas. So, first of all, uh, this shiny flashlight said, uh, open the doors, um... Uh, but if they get too close, and if you actually see them, you need to, uh, close the doors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, uh, don't use too much power, though. Only use them when necessary, along with the flashlight. Oh, and, uh, yeah, about the power, um... I'm like... Come on. The restaurant, um, you have to put the... call in the furnace manually. At, uh, the new restaurant we had, um... We put a lot of money in getting a newer furnace. He's not... He's still there. You just click a button, and it puts a call for you. Why'd you not go... Don't find it. Um... Oh, and we're the one that did. We had some extra money, uh... What? Dude, it's literally impossible. I can't... I know there's a way, but... It's just too much. You can just try this for a hundred times. But you're the new security guard. You'll be working the night shift. And I'm just here to tell you what you need to do. So, uh, show me your first night. It should be pretty easy. Uh, trust me. So, first of all, uh, this, uh, shiny flashlight said, uh... Thomas is already... All three of the doors, um... Coming. Uh, but if they get too close... Oh, you can actually mute him? Wow! If only I would have known that since the beginning. Okay, we have to be very careful. As they do come from every side. Okay? Not today, Thomas. Not today. How is he still there? Oh, we're dead. That's where I messed up when they all spawned. And the door was...  I'm just gonna call it a day that I've been playing this nonstop. I can't get past the first night. It's literally impossible, dude. And I'm pretty... I'm starving so much right now. I'm starting to feel a little dizzy. So I'm just gonna call it a day. Thank you for watching. Hope you enjoyed the video. And I'll see you all in the next one. Peace.