Hey everybody, tonight we're debating abortion and we are starting right now. Ladies and gentlemen, thrilled to have you here for another epic debate. Wanna let you know about your first time here at Modern Day Debate, we are a neutral platform, hosting debates on science, religion and politics. And we wanna let you know folks, no matter what walk of life you are from, we really do hope you feel welcome and we are excited about today's debate. It's gonna be fun and we are thrilled to have our guests with us. Wanna remind you, it's a controversial topic but do wanna encourage you to focus your attacks on the arguments rather than the people. We are really thankful to have our guests, Kay and Ariel with us today and so we wanna show them that appreciation and so we are going to introduce them in just a moment but let me first just let you know about the format. It's going to be roughly 10 minutes of openings from each side and that'll be starting with Kay and then after those opening statements we'll go into open conversation followed by about 30 minutes of Q and A and maybe a little bit less than that for Q and A. So do get your questions in early folks and what we're going to do now is introduce our guests. We're thrilled to have them here. So thanks so much for being with us again. Kay, we'll start with you and so Kay is representing the pro-life side tonight and Kay is linked in the description. So Kay, if you can let people know what can people expect to find at your link in the description. Thanks for being here. Thank you for having me. I always love coming on and I'm excited to have this discussion tonight. I am Kay Fellows. I am a pro-life activist, political activist on the side a little bit. In my link below you're going to find my Twitter which is where I'm most active most of the time. I talk about pretty much whatever I want to talk about over there. You're also going to find a link to my YouTube channel which I recently started uploading to again very recently. Again, just whatever I really want to talk about. I talk about abortion. I talk about different political issues. I talk about different social topics. I just kind of like to delve into whatever interests me and that's pretty much on every platform. And after this show, I'm actually going to be on a political panel live stream over at my co-host Tom Fullery PC. We stream on YouTube, Twitch and Facebook. So I will be on there later tonight after the show and welcome you guys to join us there later. You got it. Thanks very much Kay and Ariel first time here. We're thrilled to have you and I want to let you know folks, her link is in the description as well. And so both of our guests are linked to the description if you want to hear more at any time. Hey, click on those links. And Aira, what can people expect to find at your link and thanks for being here with us? Thank you for having me. I have not talked about abortion on my channel. I don't think maybe a passing here and there but nothing like this. This is why I decided to do this debate. And I would say most of the time I talk more about LGBT, LGBT rights, LGBT culture, women empowerment. And recently, very recently, I would say I became outspokenly, I guess I become more outspoken against the progressive left, we could say. So I took a stand against the woke mobs. And I post a lot of videos debating, you know, the new woke culture, we'll say. You got it. We're thrilled to have you here, Ariel. This is going to be a blast. And so what we're going to do folks is we're going to kick it over to Kay for the opening statement. And so Kay, I've got the timer set for you. And again, that's flexible if you, you know, whether it be a below or a little bit above the time of 10 minutes. The floor is all yours Kay. Well, as you know, I never take up the full 10 minutes in my introduction, but I am a pro-life activist. I've been a pro-life activist for about seven years. I think it'll be seven years this year. I believe that all human life is valuable. I think that it's an inalienable right to have the right to life. And I think that it's a foundational building block for all of our other rights. And I think that it starts with protecting our most vulnerable and the people, those of us that can't do it themselves. I think that it's a huge part of having a functional society that we protect the most vulnerable of our species. With that being said, I am what they call a social pro-life activist. So I do believe that we should be doing everything that we possibly can, both in the social aspect and the legal aspect to help bring abortion numbers down. It's not just about making abortion illegal. It's about protecting these women and forming a culture and a society that is more accepting of women that find themselves in unplanned pregnancies, making, creating a culture that not just respects life, but values life and wants to create an environment that's healthy to bring children into and is helpful to the women that face these hard decisions. And a big part of my activism is breaking down the reasons why women get abortions so that we can prevent them from happening if a woman has other options, legitimate other options. She's less likely to go into an abortion clinic. And so that's where my activism really plays a part. I'm not a huge, I'm not a big player in making abortion illegal. I don't take part in a lot of those conversations. I'm definitely not active in that type of environment. But I do think that there's a lot that we can do on the social level to help prevent abortions from happening and not just stopping abortions from happening, but really, really helping women in this culture. I do believe that we still live in a very patriarchal culture that is not catered towards women. And I think that there's a lot that we can do to change that. You've got to think very much. I like everything you said. I like everything you said. I feel like it's not going to be as much of a debate as people think, but I think it'll be more interesting because of that. Because I think we have varying ways of looking at things. And hopefully that's how the world can come to better conclusions and how to deal with issues, right? I think that the first point I would like to make is when people hear pro-life, they think the other end of the spectrum is pro-death. It's like, no, I'm pro-choice, right? And I think it's important to note that because I don't want people to think that I'm okay or that a lot of pro-choice activists are okay with killing innocent babies, like killing innocent lives. I think that we just want women to know that their body, their choice sort of thing. And I know that the argument against that is that it's not our body. And I think what I have to say to that, I think is when does science say that a body, and I know that science says that it is a life, but when is a body considered a body? Is it, is a baby growing inside you a body if it cannot stand, if it cannot live on its own? You know what I mean? Like if it cannot live and breathe on its own, so to speak. Like obviously when you have the baby, then you have to feed it, right? My question would be to science, when is, or I guess it would be more politics and law because science says that it is a life when the clump of cells comes together and it meets in that whole thing. So I understand, because I'm a libertarian, I'm very aware of science, but I'm also aware of culture and law. And I think the thing with abortion is most women and men, but most will just say women for this. Most women are very aware of the science that goes into it. But I think what she said, she's right. I think culture has a lot to do with it as well. I think a lot of women feel lost.  I think that there's a lot of social implications. I think that there's also still a lot of miseducation that goes around. I think that's socially we have a lot more work to do. And I think that maybe the issue, maybe the debate shouldn't be, should abortions be illegal or are you pro-choice or pro-life, maybe the debate should be, how do we keep women from having to have abortions? I think that's the best progressive step forward. How do we stop it from happening at all? That's like ideal. And I guess some religions would say, oh, you're not supposed to have protection, whatever you're not supposed to use.  But I think generally that's where I stand at the moment. I think that it's a lot more, there's a lot more nuance that goes into it than people think. You got it. Thanks very much, Ariel. And then what we're, I forgot to mention folks, we are excited about the future as Matt Dilahunty will return next month. And that'll be against Samuel Nassan and debate on whether or not Jesus fulfills prophecy. So do hit that subscribe button as you don't want to miss that one live. It's going to be epic, folks. And want to give you a reminder, our guests right now are linked in the description. And with that, we're going to jump into the open discussion. So thank you both very much. The floor is all yours. Okay, so I really like the fact that you brought up the aspect of religion because this is actually something more recently for me in my pro-life activism, something that I've kind of like butt up against a brick wall with. And it has kind of gotten me blacklisted amongst several pro-life organizations. I believe that there should be a separation of religion and pro-life activism. And thankfully that there is a very large sector of our movement that is kind of drifting this way. It's a more of a secular argument. We look at the science and we break down the argument of science from a completely secular standpoint without the aspect of religion. But this is really where that social aspect comes into play because you're right. It is more nuanced because at the end of the day we can break down every scientific argument like, yes, life begins at fertilization. Yes, it's a human being, so on and so forth. But there are a lot of cultural aspects that go into this. Women do overwhelmingly field-trapped. I believe currently at the last statistics that were taken like over 70% of women that have abortions so that they would not like there was an underlying socio-economic reason why they were having abortions. So that's 70% of abortions that we could potentially prevent from happening.  But I also am well aware that the government's not going anywhere and either our taxes and if they're going to spend our tax money on things I would like to see it go towards something like free contraception or low-cost contraception so that people can afford it and can get easy access to it because that is a huge thing, childcare. I can talk for days about getting access to childcare particularly for teen moms that are still in high school and young moms that are still in college. I think that's a huge thing that plays into why women get abortions is that they're afraid they're not going to be able to finish school because how are you supposed to focus academically on your schoolwork whenever you have a child that you have to take care of? 24-7, 365. So there are so many things that we can do as a society to help these women in these what seems like an impossible situation. My two children were brought into, you know, they were conceived in a loving stable marriage. My husband and I were happy with, you know, each time we found out that we were pregnant and even then it was scary. Pregnancy in and of itself is a scary thing and it's incredibly terrifying for a lot of women without all of these underlying outside pressures that they then have to think through whenever they find themselves pregnant unexpectedly. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense and I understand that. I also want to note the fact that obviously I'm not a person of color but I know for a fact because of all the Black Lives Matter activism that was going on over the summer that most Planned Parenthoods and abortion clinics are in Black neighborhoods and I think that says a lot about culture too and where we need to focus more of our energy and education on. So that's probably maybe another topic because that's more about like, you know, race issues and but I think it does have a lot to do with this as well because I think it was like I can't remember the exact statistics. I don't even have it in front of me to pull it out but the majority of abortions were performed in like Black neighborhoods. So I tend to agree with you. I think a lot of it could be prevented but because I believe in, again, like the my body, my choice type thing, I don't think that abortion is a good thing, you know but I think it's an important thing. Does that make sense? Yeah, I understand where you're coming from and there are a lot of people. I don't think, well, I guess what I'm trying to say, sorry, I just want to cut you off just for a second because I forgot what I was going to say. What I'm trying to say is I don't think that I don't think that most people that have abortions feel good about it but they know it's the right thing for them. And I think that's where a lot of pro-life activists get it wrong. It's not that these women are happy about it or like I said, think it's good. They just think that it's what they need to do. It's what they have to do kind of thing, you know? Yeah, and that's where pro-life activists like me or more social pro-life activists really come in because it is an overwhelming issue where we're not, you're not seeing an overwhelming amount of women going into abortion clinics, blowing those little party buzzer things like with balloons, like this is an incredibly difficult thing to go through. And for me, it breaks my heart that so many women have gone through this, have been put in positions where they felt like they had no other option, like this is it, like either I do this or my life is over. And that, to me, that shows such a huge failure as a society with women. Like we're supposed, we supposedly, you know, in 2021, we supposedly live in this age of such, you know, enlightenment and just empowerment and like women are just living high. But I don't think that we ever truly got out of the patriarchal society that we had been living in back in the fifties and sixties. And it was abortion was like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound and then saying that they solved the problem whenever they didn't because women shouldn't have to choose such a harsh abhorrence, this terrible, tragic thing in order to feel like they can get educated. They can get a high school education, college education. They can pursue their careers. They can pursue their dreams because of something that is biological about females. Like this is our basic biology. Do you think that men today feel the same way that women do about having kids? Like, oh my God, my life is over? What do you think that's specifically a woman thing because A, maybe a lot of men will leave the woman to do it herself or because we're still possibly in that mindset where the woman has to stay home and the men goes out and does what he wants type of thing. I don't know. Like I'm trying to figure out not that I agreed or disagree with you. I understand what you're saying. I'm just trying to reel it in to understand you to understand exactly what you're saying especially for the viewers at home too. I think that there are men out there that take the news of an unplanned pregnancy with the same amount of weight that women do in regards to what their future looks like. But at the same time, even those men that are like, now I have to completely change, shift gears on what I was planning on doing with my life because now I have to take care of a child. Even those men that step up to the plate and realize that to the same extent don't have the same pressures that women do because like you said, men, even though they're considered scum of the earth pieces of garbage, like they do still have the options of having that out. Whereas women, they do have to go through the pregnancy and if they do at the end of that pregnancy one out, they have to go through the hardship of giving that baby away. That baby that they bonded with for nine months gave birth to, they have to go through so much more in order to quote unquote have the out of not being a parent. Whereas men can just really just up and decide like I don't wanna do this later, like peace, where. No, it's definitely, I would say it's not, I would say it's partially societal and partially biological obviously, like the baby's attached to you. It's not a societal thing in that sense. So it's partially biological. But yeah, a lot of social implications come with it. Yeah, like men can just straight up get up and leave. And not feel as guilty about it as a woman would. I could be wrong, but that's generally what I've seen. Anyway, that's what I've seen. And yeah, yeah, no, I agree. I agree with a lot of what you were saying. And also like with on the social aspects, men even if they do to step up to the plate and decide that they're going to be an equal parent, like they're still not an equal parent. Like a man doesn't have to give up his career or drop out of college necessarily because he got a woman pregnant. There are so many more obstacles that a woman has to go through being pregnant, trying to finish school, trying to get it higher. Yeah, which is also like very much cultural because while there are some men. That's a really good feminist talking point. Yeah, there are some. As an empowering women, not hating men. Yes, we don't hate men here. We're not hating on men here, but there are like, I am not a man hating feminist, but whenever you look back through history and how we got to where we are and why abortion was able to become so prevalent in our society to a point where women feel like they have no other option. Like this is the option in order for me to be able to pursue my life, how I wanted it to is because of men. Like I'm just gonna throw it out there. Men did not want to adjust our culture and our society to accept women in all of our biological states and the fact that we can get pregnant even whenever we don't want to. And that's how we got here. And I think that it's going to be on the backs of men that we get to where we need to be. Men need to be willing to adjust and acknowledge that there are so many aspects of our culture that need to change in order for women to be truly, not just seen as equal, but be truly equal in all aspects of our society. I think that's a great point. I think that's a great point. And I think unfortunately I think a lot of people, I don't know about the audience that's watching this right now or the people that are viewed online after, but I know a lot of conservatives are gonna see that as us being super woke. But I think it's true. I think society does have to change. I don't think that means hating men or hating cisgender people or hitting straight people in the process, right? But I think society has to, what doesn't have to change? It has to evolve, right? Like that's the actual truthful definition of, it should be the truthful definition of progressivism is for people to be seen as equal, but we're not the same, but we would like to be seen as equal and treated equal, right? Even though we're not the same. The same and equal don't mean pun intended, don't mean the same thing, right? But equality is a really, really important thing. And interesting that you brought up the fact before that, would you say like 70% of women that had abortions didn't necessarily want them? Or what did you say? What was it? They felt like they had no other... Yeah, 70% of the abortion statistic is made up of women that listed socioeconomic reasons as to why they were getting abortions. Not just like, I just don't want to have a child right now. Because I wanna be able to finish school or I'm going to have to give up my career or something like that. Yeah, I think most women, even a lot of lesbians do want children. I think it's just the timing thing. And timing usually has to do with either economics or education, sometimes just relationship status, stability. So I think that's a lot of cultural things as well. And yeah, I think a lot more goes into this than people think. It's not just like, okay, I'm okay with killing babies, okay, I'm okay with not killing babies. It's like, I feel like that's not what actual activists are arguing. It's just, yeah, it's a lot more complicated and I think a lot of these issues are just more complicated. That's why we can have hour-long debates about them, right? Yeah, and it's funny because there is this stigma around it and it's gotten to, because abortion is such a hot topic, it really has gotten to, you do have people on both sides where it's just like, you have this stigmatized idea of what I believe and what I support. So I'm going to pretend that this is actually, they become radicalized almost, where you do have people online joking about taking dead fetuses and flinging them against a wall like a sticky toy and you have people on the right talking about how they do want to actually just control women's bodies and it's all about shoving women back into the kitchen. It's like, we're not accomplishing anything whatsoever by just screaming at each other and the majority of us are really just like, hey, you're pro-life, I'm pro-choice, let's meet in the middle and like, make this a more welcoming society that benefits women because that'd be kind of awesome. Yeah, and I think you're the perfect person for this. I'm happy that he chose you. I have a question for you and I know this is a question you get asked a lot and I know people's answers, I don't know your answer though. Are you, when you say you're pro-life, does that mean that you are pro-life in every situation or just specific situations or? Yeah, I guess that's the best way to say it, yeah. I'm what they call a consistent life ethic activist. So I am pro-life from the moment of virtualization all the way to natural death. I don't believe in any exceptions to the rule. I am anti-abortion all the way. I am anti-death penalty. I am anti-nuclear weapons. I'm anti-war. I'm anti-euthanasia and assisted suicide.  Okay, so my question for you is, I guess my counterpoint would be, I don't think that, at least myself, I don't think that I'm arguing that human life is invaluable. I think that what we're arguing is the value of the human life equal to the amount of suffering it might cause somebody to live on, because you said, obviously I'm anti-war. I don't think anyone's pro-war. I think we're pro-wanting to change different societies and we wanna control cultures and stuff, which I'm not personally a fan of either, but that's how capitalism happens sometimes. I think it's difficult to have a conversation about being pro-life in every situation. I have not been at all a victim of rape, but I have friends that have been and I know that's obviously a topic that we have to talk about. And I find it difficult for someone to believe that I guess for someone to believe that a woman should be forced to carry out said pregnancy to the full term and then have the baby after they had experienced the trauma that manifested through that. So for me, it's not the human life isn't valuable, it's the suffering that comes with it. And is the suffering that's going to cause the other human life in this situation, is that more, is it less value? Which human life are we talking about? Which one's more valuable? You know what I mean? I think that's what it comes down to, but I understand where you're coming from. I do, of course. I just think it's complicated. That makes sense. My point is- Yeah, it is incredibly complicated and whenever you're talking about situations like rape, we can't just pretend that there are a lot of pro-lifers out there that like to sweep it under the rug and be like, it only makes up like 1% of the abortion statistic, but this is something that happens. It does, and it's a reality. And there are children, there are living human beings walking this earth now that were conceived in rape. And this is a horrifying issue. And I think that it is something that is, something that needs to be treaded lightly on and something that needs to be addressed situation by situation. I don't believe in abortion, even in cases of rape, because I don't believe in causing, giving punishment to an innocent human being in no way took part in how they were conceived. But- I understand that. I guess how I feel about that, the punishment aspect is, I believe in, I'm a spiritual person. I don't necessarily believe in religion, but I'm pretty spiritual. And I think that, I think trauma can manifest in somebody's being like super early. And I don't know if, like we're both trying to figure out what's best, right? Like I don't know if it's best for someone that, that a child that was conceived out of rape, to like have their, I guess my question would be, find these people later on in life and see how they're doing. Like if they're doing well, and they lived a normal, healthy life, then maybe it's not the worst thing. But at the same time, I feel like if there's spiritual trauma and emotional trauma and physical trauma that early on in someone's life, even if they're in the mother's stomach, the mother's regretting every second of this pregnancy, like how is that gonna manifest in this kid's upbringing? And this kid's, even if the mother doesn't verbally say it, right? Like the energy's still there and still behind it. And that worries me for the wellbeing of the kid in a different way than what you're arguing, I guess. We're both worried about the wellbeing of the kid and of the mother just in different ways, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, and like there's a lot of, not just in cases of rape, there's a lot of things that go into this conversation because you talk about adoption being an option for women that don't want to be mothers at the end of their pregnancy. And you talk about the possibility of that child not being adopted and then going into our absolutely horrifyingly awful foster care system and then you have that abuse and you have that trauma. And as someone that, you know, had a fair amount of childhood trauma growing up, I always argue that yes, you know, there was trauma there and mine wasn't even nearly what so many children experience and I think that is horrible and it absolutely breaks my heart.  But wait, you said you're not pro death penalty though. Just curious, just trying to remember.  I am, if I walked out of this. That's an un-disagree, I think pedophiles should be, I think child molesters should be, should be destroyed. I tell people all the time, like I am pro life for the whole life, but if I was walking down the street and I saw someone beating a pedophile to death, I would turn around, I would walk the other way and I would not lose an ounce of sleep over it that night. But whenever it comes to the possibilities of a child experiencing any level of trauma throughout how they were conceived or how their childhood goes because they were born into less than perfect circumstances.  And as one human being, I can't justify saying that I or anybody else could say whose life is and is not worth living at because of these certain circumstances or potential circumstances that they might be born into. I see what you're saying.  When I'm gathering, I don't even say anything. What I'm gathering is you want to see the value of the baby or the fetus or whatever you want to call it of that being as equal to the value of the life of the mother, of said mother. So, and I completely understand that point. I think it's just, like I said is, I guess technically, I'm trying to figure out how to say this, but I'll sound like a douche. Let's say somebody got the bed, somebody was raped, they're forced, let's say they're forced to have a baby. I don't agree with it. Let's say they're forced to have the baby. In your mind, is it kind of one of those like, well, it's only nine months of their life and then they can kind of heal through that trauma as the mother and then the baby also still gets to live on kind of thing. Is that like where your mind is at? Kind of, yes. And I don't want to just brush it off. Like it's only nine months. Like I mean, it's definitely not an easy thing and it takes time, but they do like the child gets to live instead of having their entire existence, you know, wiped off the face of the earth and the mother does have the option of moving on with her life and healing from what she experienced and what she went through. And I think that as this is one of those societal things that we should do is that assistance for these women should be more readily available. Women should be able to have access to therapy and trauma help and any amount of assistance that they need to get through these experiences whether or not they ended up pregnant or not resources for women that experienced sexual assault are incredibly lacking in our society. And I think that's a huge step that we need to take as a society in helping her abortion. Well, definitely. I have a question. So because I know you go by science and you said you believe that, you know, life begins a fertilization, right? Do you also believe in reincarnation in a sense that in the definition, in the way that science would define it, meaning, you know, all energy is just, like energy is not created or destroyed. Like the energy just kind of turns up in different places, right? So that's another thing that I believe in which is backed by science, right? That if the, because I believe in souls, spirits, energies, whatever you wanna call them, if that energy, clump of cells, fetus, baby, whatever you wanna call it, if that being, we'll just say being, if that being is terminated personally, I believe in reincarnation or I believe the transfer of energy. So I believe that being will eventually come out where it's supposed to come out. Does that make sense? Come to fruition, so to speak, where it's supposed to. So I think that's another argument for me in favor of being pro-choice. I think that I, I mean, if I was, if I was, well, I was, I was gonna say if I was, we all were, right? We were all in that situation at one point. We were all in somebody's belly and somebody's womb, blah, blah, blah. If I, as a soul or spirit, whatever you wanna call it, had an energy, had a choice to make. And I was like, okay, like, do I wanna go through this really rough life or like take a step back and go through this path instead and have a great life? Like as a soul, like which one would you choose? You know what I mean? Like if there is a choice in the matter, like I don't know, nobody knows, right? Cause nobody knows really what happens after death, but I can understand. Yeah, I feel like, I think you can understand me. I think you understand what I'm saying because it's also science-based. So I try to add that into the debate when I talk to people about this kind of stuff. But what do you think about that? Do you believe in reincarnation in the way that science defines it, you know? Scientifically, yes. As far as like the idea of reincarnation as like a spiritual aspect, I'm not exactly sure where I fall in that. I'm kind of on like a spiritual journey right now. I used to be, I grew up traditional Christian and now I've like branched off into paganism. So I'm kind of, I'm on a very long spiritual journey right now. But I do like to believe the idea that, you know, whenever a soul dies, whenever someone on this earth dies, that that energy is transferred and they do come back as a different being. I think that it's a beautiful way to see death. But from that aspect, I wouldn't say that because they could come back as a different being that it would be justification for ending their lives as the being that they are now. Okay, so I think your argument is, life is more important than potential suffering. And my argument is potential, if we have the option to not suffer, you know, I would rather take that off, you know, that's where the pro-choice comes into play. It's like, it's suffering for this being worth it, which is why I'm also okay with assisted, assisted, I guess you could call it assisted suicide, but assisted. What's the, I don't even know what the technical term is. Okay, euthanasia, yeah, I'm technically, I would be pro that depending on the situation of course, because again, I think suffering to an extent makes people grow, but I think suffering, you know, at some point, suffering just doesn't help anybody, even the person that's currently alive, the difference between being alive and living type of thing. Yeah, it's a suffering argument, I think, is what we're having, not a pro-life and pro-choice thing. It's like, who's meant to suffer? Who's not, you know, which life is more valuable? Which energy is more valuable? So I try to look at it from science and from spirituality. And in a sense, like I said, energy, you don't have to call it spirituality.  Yeah, that's, it's an interesting, it's interesting that we figured that out pretty early, pretty early on into the debate, into the debate, right? Like a half an hour and we're like, oh yeah, it's all just about suffering, really. I feel like that's what most debates are about. It's really who deserves to suffer and what suffering is deemed acceptable in society. Cause nobody wants to die, but unfortunately everybody does suffer. At least at some point in their life in some way, mentally, physically, socially, financially, there's all these different types of suffering spiritually. So I think a lot of the debates are less about politics than people think and more about simply just suffering of beings. Yeah, I would agree with that.  And I don't support the idea of anybody suffering, but I also don't support the idea of one human choosing for another that like you might suffer in life and therefore I'm choosing for you not to have that life where you might suffer because I don't believe that- I see what you're saying.  I forget, do you know what I mean? Yeah, that's the way you're saying. I understand that point too. I think it's just like where you are in your spiritual journey or enlightenment how you view the world is how you're gonna view important topics like this, you know? Yeah, I'm just very pro-freedom and anti-control. So anytime anyone tries to control somebody too much that just makes me like, it irks me. So when I see somebody trying to say that what another woman has to do with her body it just, it rubs me the wrong, you know? It rubs me the wrong way, yeah. But again, like I said, I think most intelligent people can understand both sides. As long as they're not getting emotional about it I think it's pretty easy to see both sides of the argument. I have curious to see what the moderator has to say though. He hasn't spoken in a minute. I'm always striving to be as neutral as possible I can't jump in though I will ask like are there any, maybe is there like a, well we've heard Kay's kind of time threshold in terms of when she would say she would be pro-life in terms of like, let's say what trimester a person would draw the line. And so that's something I'm curious like if you two might have disagreements on just to kind of explore those issues and not for the sake of like creating sparks and fly a fire, but more so just kind of the difference of perspectives that I think is, I'm curious to hear what you guys would both say or. That's a real tricky one because I don't really know how to answer that yet. It's not something I've had to deal with because I'm gay, but I've never slept with men. But I think that I think it's really about judgment it's really about being judgmental, isn't it? We're judging when we think, if we're not going by the scientific definition of when life begins, then it's really just about judging when you think a baby looks enough like a baby, I guess, right? Or a baby looks, or that being looks human enough. I don't know how to answer that. I think I definitely don't agree with late trimester, 4th trimester, 3rd trimester abortions. I think my answer to that will be, if you want to have one or I should say, if you need to have one or if you want to have one in like the accident happened type of thing and you have no other choice, I would say just my answer would be to have it as early as possible. That's the only good way I can say it without going against my morals and science completely. It's not like, okay, this is the line. It's like, no, it's all kind of fucked up, but I understand why people do it. I don't think it's like, again, I don't think it's good that they're doing it, but I think it's important that they have the option. I think it's important to have freedom of, I think it's important to have freedom to have control of your own life to the best of your ability. That makes sense. I hope that made sense. I see what you're saying. And we also, another thing is we've gone almost an hour, and this is usually where we'd go into the Q and A. What we could do is start pulling from some of the questions that have come in already. And so these may be more pointed. So, but don't worry. I think you guys are both quick on your feet. So I think you guys will be ready for it. And we do have one from Tuss Beatbox as well. By the way, Tuss Beatbox is a huge supporter of the channel in terms of like, we appreciate everything you do, Tuss. And Tuss asks, for Kay, if a woman is kidnapped and then hooked up to another person, so that the other person's life is dependent on the woman staying there and hooked up, is she forced to stay regardless of length of time? So this is kind of like the old violinist argument. Well, that's the argument that I said too. Is it a functioning being if it cannot survive without the mother? That's the argument I brought up too. Yeah, my argument with this is, like, no, she's not required to stay hooked up to some random stranger that she was kidnapped and hooked up to in the middle of nowhere against her will. Without bringing in the idea of rape, this isn't how pregnancy happens. Pregnancy is in a woman being kidnapped and unintentionally hooked up to another human being. And also, a fetus is not some random stranger out in the middle of nowhere that you were kidnapped and hooked up to. This is biological offspring. This is, by all intensive purposes, this woman's child. And as a society, we have already established social norms about what we expect from parents in protecting their children.  This isn't just some random stranger. It's not some random being. This is somebody that was brought into the world through intentional action that we as human beings know can potentially lead to pregnancy. And if it results in a pregnancy, this is your biological offspring. This is somebody that is related to you. This is your child. So I don't see the comparison with this argument at all. I think he's trying to make the comparison that I made. Is a being considered a life legally, I guess, if it cannot function without another being present? I think that's his argument. You can correct me if I'm wrong, though. And I understand where you're coming from. Whenever I, with that argument, I kind of argue that there are, unfortunately, through suffering and the fact that we are flawed beings, there are a lot of people that cannot survive on their own without the use of, I mean, it's not another human being, but without the use of machinery and technology. And unfortunately, we haven't gotten to the point as a society to where women have the option of transferring their fetus to technology instead of the use of their body. We haven't progressed to that point. But I wouldn't say that the fetus is not a human being because they have to be reliant on someone else or something else to survive, especially because it is temporary. They are growing and they are developing. They are eventually going to get to a point where they can survive on their own, whereas there are plenty of people in the world today that will never be able to do that. And I wouldn't want to strip their humanity away simply because they cannot live on their own. Next up, we'll jump to the next question. Appreciate this one from Brandon Ardeline, says, what does preventing women from having a glob of cells sucked out of their womb due to reduce crime, improve the economy or solve world hunger? I'm guessing that was directed towards me. I do not, I reject the idea that if more children are like that we should be killing human beings so that they don't potentially commit crimes in the future. I think that's a horrible argument. I think it's kind of eugenics-sounding. As far as, like, and I would put that as, I would go as far as to say the same thing for the economy.    But ideally we wouldn't, right? I understand what you're saying. And especially because these aren't like, it's not like they are convicted criminals.  Like, these are completely innocent human beings that have not made any conscious choices yet.  So the idea that we should allow them to be killed for things that they might do in the future is kind of horrifying to me. No, I agree. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just. Yeah. What's the next question? These are good questions so far. You got it. And this one coming in. Obey physics. Thanks for your super sticker. Appreciate the support. And Sigefredo Sarabia, a regular here. Glad to see you asked both. Why and how did this topic become so political? Can't we get to the nitty gritty in what we need culture that protects women who love Wienerschnitzel. So let's see, I'm sorry. Okay. But basically.  What, I'm so, okay. Focusing on everything before the Wienerschnitzel, they say both why and how did this topic become so political? I think it just became, I think it became very political because of religion originally. I think religion generally is still seen as very right wing. Even though there are very, very many left-leaning people that are religious, I still think it's just how people view it. And I think the majority of old school conservatives are still very pro-life. And I think the majority of today's leftists are very pro-choice. And I think that's, I mean, it's as simple as that to me. I think it started with religion and I think it evolved into more, I think it evolved into just traditional conservatism versus new age progressivism. Does that make sense? I don't know how it got there. Maybe that's the question he's asking. I don't know. I think maybe the answer is whatever way maybe the answer is typical conservatives are much more about control and progressivism, ideally would be seen as much more about freedom. And maybe they see pro-choices, freedom and pro-life as control, you know? I don't know. I understand what he's saying. I'm trying to figure how to answer it. But I don't know the answer really. I think that it became so politicized because of, I would give full credit, I guess you could say, or full responsibility of the fact that this has become so politicized to Republicans because this has been something that Republicans have campaigned on since it became legal, since Roe v. Wade. Republicans have been campaigning on the idea that they're going to defund abortion clinics, that they're going to overturn Roe v. Wade, that they're going to give the power back to the states, that they're going to eradicate abortion in the United States and it's just a talking point that allows them to continue to get right-wing votes because this is the hot topic on the right. Right-wingers want a pro-life candidate and they will never vote for a pro-choice candidate and Republicans know that and they have just capitalized on it for all of these years knowing that they're not going to do a damn thing about it. I think that's a good point. I think that's accurate too. Yeah, I think I would say conservative, I'm not necessarily Republican though because I think I'm technically a Republican but I'm not fully conservative at the moment, you know? I'm like a libertarian but that's just an argument of what words mean but yeah, it's a good question. You got it and this one coming in from Cider in Port says with regards to the non-consenting sex and pregnancy, Kay said she was anti-punishing the child. How is it not rubbing salt in the wound of a woman who didn't consent to sex? I wouldn't argue that it's not incredibly traumatic for a woman that has gone through something that is already a traumatic experience and then having to experience pregnancy on top of that. I'm not going to deny that that is not something that is incredibly hard for a woman to go through but like she said, my argument is I'm not pro-punishing and it's a completely innocent party, another innocent person that also did not consent to being conceived in that manner for the crimes, for the abhorrent actions of another person. You got it and this one from Cider in Port as well. Thanks for your, says, wish you got me better opponents for my last debate. Put it in the comments box, Cider in Port but Red Alert, thanks for your, he's a pass debater but he's a friend of the channel. Red Alert says, glad to see you both. Hope you're both well. It seems to be about consent versus sentience versus differing values on life. What are your thoughts? I think that makes sense. I think we're both pretty fond of the idea of consent. I don't think either of us believes that rape is okay but I think her argument with consent is also in the eyes of the second being is this being did not consent to be, maybe it did consent to be here, I don't know but it did not necessarily consent to being killed but that again, a lot of the times, I don't think anyone necessarily consents to being killed and if you did agree with that, you don't agree with that. You don't agree with euthanasia so this whole topic is tricky. Yeah, I think we agree with consent. I think it's, I don't think the argument is about consent because I think we agree with that on that topic. I think it's again about suffering which being deserves to suffer more and ideally we want neither to suffer but that's not how the world works and that's the, I think that's the root of the argument here. Yeah, I would agree with that. I don't think that there's any disagreement in regards to consent, consent is extremely important, people always get consent, please. You got it and thank you very much for your question. This one coming in from Corvus Crux. Hold on a second, I've been asking this, I honestly don't know but Corvus Crux know you don't get an apology by the way so they are angry. They, is turf a bad word? Is that like an insult? Do you want me to answer this because I get called that all the time? Yes, you know what I'm saying. It has nothing to do with this by the way, it has nothing to do with abortion but I can answer the question anyway. Technically the actual definition of turf is not an insult but the way people use it 100% is these days. So turf stands for trans exclusionary radical feminism. A lot of people will call me that and not actually understand the way that they're using it because I'm actually not trans exclusionary in my feminism depending on what type of feminism we're talking about. In regards to abortion, my argument would be the same for trans men that can get pregnant as well as women like me and Kay. Like I'm going to include trans men in that part of feminism because abortion is a big feminist discussion. It's a big talking point to big debate the moment as far as trans women in feminism to me that's much more societal and less biological because a lot of trans women or most trans, well not all trans women can't get pregnant, right?  So it depends, but there's a lot of cultural debates in feminism and trans women I think fit a lot of trans women if they're transitioned or at least socially live and are seen as women do fit into a lot of these debates. So I'm not trans exclusionary but I do get called turf an awful lot because people just don't know what that word even means anymore.  Gotcha. Yeah. So sorry, I did not know that it was like... No, I don't think so. The denotation didn't seem bad. Like it... It's an acronym and it just means trans exclusionary radical feminism, and it's like some people are legitimately like trans people are bad, blah, blah. And it's like, no, science says this. And it's like, okay, like I agree with science just like always, but I'm not gonna dismantle society and stuff like that because trans people exist. Like I'm still gonna recognize the difference between biological differences and societal differences and how each potential group of people fits into either conversation, you know? That's all. You got it. And do wanna respond is it's either the, you know, we have problems with, it's usually people at the extremes that don't like our channel. So I do have to say, you guys, we're gonna host everybody. We are gonna be real about that. We'll even host, is it an insult if I say woke people? Do woke people call themselves woke?  I don't even know what the problem is. They just call themselves progressive. But the point is folks, no apologies here. So Cider and Port says, James, let's see. We always love a good debate call out. Says James, I wanna call out K for a debate on this topic. What's the topic? This abortion in particular. Oh, so he wants to redebate this topic. Okay. Let's do it. It will be like the fifth time that I've debated abortion on this channel. Oh my God, girl, how many times? It's like me with women's rights and trans rights. Like I got, no matter how many times I say the points that I'm trying to make people will, people will think that they can convince me otherwise. It's like, no, I still stand firmly in what I say. I am always happy to come on and say the same things over and over and over again. You're happy with that? I'm not.  I'm done, leave me that alone. Like let's have a discussion, bud. Good for you, good for you for standing tall because I can't do that. We are thankful for both of you. And we do have a couple more questions yet. But before I jump into those, I want to remind you folks, our guests are linked to the description. Now is a great time to click on those links. You can hear plenty more from both of our guests. And Collin Lorenz says, modern debate question for Kay, should I have been forced to carry the fetus to term when I was raped? I think this is- To repeat question kind of. It is kind, it's already kind of been asked. And so Brooks Sparrow, thank you for that question. It was already asked. Let me know if you didn't hear it, but. Can I just like really quick? Cause like she, she's coming from like a very vulnerable place. And I want to express that I am so sorry for what you went through. And I don't wish any kinds of horror on you or I'm not making light of what you went through. And I think that is awful. And I'm, it breaks my heart that you were put in a situation where you had to come to that decision to have an abortion. And I don't look down on you for it. And I don't hate you for it. I stand by my, where I stand on the issue of abortion and rape. But for you specifically in your situation, I want you to know that I don't, I don't think anything less of you as a person, as a human being. And I am genuinely sorry that you had to go through such a horrible experience. Thank you Kay. And thank you Brooks Sparrow as well for spending time with us. And sorry that I was late on the Twitch chat in getting your questions in the Twitch chat. So I am peeking in on it now. Thanks to your patience guys. And thank you for your question. This one coming in from Zirafa says, Ariel, what would you think of a woman who wants an abortion solely because the child is of a certain sex or their father of a certain race? Hmm.  There's a thing in China where correct me from wrong where they, a lot of the times if they find out the baby's a female, they will, they will have a forced abortion with the forced abortion. And they'll have an abortion or what was the question? What do I think about it? I think that it's sexist and racist. I think that's the answer. I think that, I think it's every human being is a human being regardless of their sex, sexual orientation or race. And I think that's more important than physical traits. Does that make sense? Where I thought that she was going with that question was like physically deformed or I thought she was gonna say has like a, they knew that they were gonna have problems. I don't know how to answer that question, but that's not the question they asked. So you get to skip that question. You've got it. I don't know how to answer that. Kay, they have a question for you as well. Said, if a child is in a coma and dying, would you try to save them if you knew it would be at the price of them going deaf, blind and tortured with persisting pain through life? I would have to say with the knowledge of that their life would be hard, I would still, yes, I would still try to save their life. I wouldn't just let them die. Again, I am against like things like assisted suicide, but I think that if someone is going to die at the very, very least, it should be the decision of theirs and not a decision that is made by somebody else that their life was not worth living. I don't believe that other human beings should be making that decision for somebody else. You got it. And thank you very much for your question coming in from Seth Benedetti. Says, for both, have you heard the argument from bodily autonomy? Example, should I legally have to donate a kidney to someone? I hit with a car that needs it to survive. Is this like a thing that's happening right now? I think it's kind of like a thought experiment to test for consistency, namely, I think they were trying to argue that if you wouldn't say that a person has to give up their kidney, then why would you say that they have to carry a baby to term? Right, I understand what they're saying. I don't know. It's the same argument I was saying before, right?  Are they considered a being worthy of living, whatever? I don't know how to answer that. I don't know how to answer that. What about you, Kenny? That's a strange question. That's a good question. Yeah, it's a good question. And I've heard it before. No, I do not believe that we should be legally requiring people to give up their organs to another person. But again, like this is, even a person that you've put in this position where they could die if they do not get a kidney, this is still somebody that is a stranger.  And you are going to suffer societal consequences for your actions, especially if that person dies.  Whereas with abortion, we don't see it that way. Abortions are happening by the thousands every single day. And we're just kind of Lottida passing it off as not just something that's normal or something to be just ingrained in our society, but even to the point where it's being praised as something that's good and something that's empowering. Even at this point, abortion is not on the same scale as someone being hit by a car or you hitting somebody with your car and killing them. And I think that that's something that seriously needs to change, that we as a society, we've been working, society has worked so hard to de-stigmatize abortion. I personally think that abortion should be stigmatized and seen as something that is the death of a human being. You got it. And this one coming in from Adam Albilia, watching all the way from Israel. Thank you for staying up late with us, Adam. Says, did Kay say that she's pro-life even in case of a forced pregnancy? If so, please ask her why mentioning the choice of the woman having sex while knowing the risk. I'm not entirely sure what he's asking. I am against abortion, even if the woman did not choose to engage in the act of sex that led to the pregnancy because I am against killing an innocent human being that was not part of forcing the act of sex that led to the pregnancy. Gotcha. And Seth has one quick follow-up question for you Kay. This one, two seconds I got. Seth's follow-up question from the last question regarding whether or not the bodily autonomy argument says, okay Kay, what if it's my brother? There's that connection. Would you have the same answer? Your brother is, you hit your brother with your car and now he's dying and he needs your kidney?  Again, this comes back to the social idea, like how we as a society view abortion in different terms to these other situations. Like abortion is not put on the same scale as like this is a child, this is your child that is being killed in an abortion, like that's what's taking place. You got it. And with that, folks, thanks so much for your questions and also wanna say our guests are linked in the description. What are you waiting for? You can hear plenty more from them. We really do appreciate them. It has been a joy to have you Kay and Ariel. Thank you for hanging out with us. It's been a true pleasure. And it's, we also, by the way folks, I have to tell you that Ariel drove, how many miles do you think you drove? How many hours do you think you drove today, Ariel? I drove, I think four and a half hours. You got it. And then I got home and then I ate and then I came right on for you guys. We appreciate it so much. Thank you very much. And so Kay as well, thank you. I know Kay, you're juggling family responsibilities and then also everything else. And so I'm like, wanna say thank you to our guests. With that folks, I'll be back in a post-credits scene in just a moment to let you know about upcoming debates we have coming up. And so with that, thanks everybody. We'll be right back and one last thank you to our guests. It's been a true pleasure to have you both. I enjoyed that thoroughly. I'm glad. I knew I was going to. I knew it wasn't gonna be a terrible debate. I feel like I'm pretty good, pretty good with, again, understanding both sides. I'm glad Kay was also awesome. Yeah, I enjoyed this thoroughly. I thought it was a great conversation. Thank you both. Man, be right back folks with that post-credits scene. Because I was so happy. That was so cordial. That was great. Honestly, I enjoy that. I have to be honest, I enjoy that more. You probably figured it out. I enjoy that more than when it's like crazy dumpster fire style.  You should have interrupted more. You should have interrupted less. It is stressful. So this was just great. Amazing. So really fun. Want to say hello to you all in chat. I just love saying hi. And also let you know about the upcoming debates. And Larry Letts, good to see ya. Mr. C, happy you're here. Good to see you again. Nicholas Cato Strode, glad you're here. Grimlock, happy to have you again. Darth Revan, pumped you're with us. And Samuel Lilleholm, good to see you again. Red Knight 821, pumped your back. Want to let you know, folks, we are pumped about upcoming debates. And also, I forgot to mention earlier the debate, you guys. I am so excited. People have been enjoying the podcast. That's encouraging. So hey, folks, if you haven't yet, if you, here's one thing. If you enjoyed tonight's debate and you're like, yeah, it was good. One thing you can do to help the channel is if you give us a rating on your favorite podcast app.   Give it a one out of four stars if you want. But that is one way you can support the modern day debate. Basically the podcast or YouTube channel, you could even say, because it's all together, we're trying to get our debates out in whatever medium we can. And so, hey, we hope that that's useful to you. If you like listening to debates on the go, well, modern day debate is on every major podcast now. So that's exciting. We're really glad about that. And a lot of people have been downloading it. So that's encouraging that people are getting use out of it. But Seth Benedetti, thanks for being with us. And Paul Kamish says, I'm here. We're glad you're here, Paul. And I'm pumped for your debate this coming Friday. Whoa, I forgot, you guys, I'm embarrassed. I completely forgot to show you. Okay, so other debates on the bottom right of your screen tomorrow. It's going to be Epic Theism on Trial. It's going to be a tag team debate. You don't want to miss that one, folks. That's going to be at 9 p.m. Eastern Standard. And though, we are also excited. Not only that, folks, but this Friday, Paul Kamish and Whitsit gets it. As you see on the bottom right of your screen, they're going to be debating Flat Earth. So that should be a juicy one. We are really excited about it. And yeah, pumped for it. So we do hope you make it. And Cider and Port hanging out here. Good to see you, Ben. Again, RJMTruth says hello and right back at you, buddy. We're glad you're with us. And let's see who else we have. Let's see. I'm confused, Cider and Port, at what you're saying. You're saying you picked the bad opponents? Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, okay. Oh, that's funny. Given your old buddy, John Maddox, a hard time. But good to see you as well. Brian F. Good to see you, Swez. Is it pronounced Swez or Swez? Silverpug345, good to see you again. And Joseph Turcott, good to see you as always. Let me pop into the Twitch chat, say hello. Poor Lucy, thanks for hanging out with us there. And Brooks Barrow, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate you. It's honestly a pleasure to have you. Everybody, in fact, hanging out in the Twitch chat. We appreciate you. Lawsonge, we see you in there, buddy. And let's see who else. M-I-K says, how are you, moderated bait? I'm good, thanks for asking. That means a lot. I'm in a good mood. This honestly puts me in a great mood every night. James SC, thanks for being with us. We are pumped that you were here. Good to have you. And doubting Thomas' back, glad you made it, Thomas. Shines is here. Thanks for being with us, Shines. Taliesin Overlander says, if we get 20 dislikes, the more exciting tomorrow's debate will be. That's gonna be epic. If we get up to 100 likes, you guys, I will show you what is behind the curtain. This right here, this is a curtain, you know. That's not real. But yes, do hit that like button as we do appreciate your guys' support. And I can't wait to unveil what I have back here, you guys, see that? It's pretty wild. But let's see. Tussbeatbox says 110 likes and James will freestyle rap. That is really funny. I definitely wish I could, but I am still learning how to do that. And Alex says, it was interesting. Take care, guys. Thanks, Alex. We're glad you enjoyed it. That's encouraging. Appreciate the positivity. Yes, we are a puncture here. And Adam Elbilia says, why didn't you clarify if she didn't understand? If she's pro-life anyway, forced or not, then it's irrelevant for her position arguing about the woman knowing the risk, thus responsible. Let me read that again, bro. I don't know if it's me, but I'm trying to like, frankly, I think Adam, I have to be honest at the end, I didn't understand your question myself. So I honestly didn't know how to clarify it. But saying, okay, so I am reading it right now, and you're saying, why didn't you clarify if she didn't understand? Sad face. And then says, if she's pro-life anyway, forced or not, then it's irrelevant for her position arguing about the woman knowing the risk, thus responsible. Man, I'm sorry. It must be that I'm just shot from schoolwork. It's been a rough day for me. And so I honestly didn't understand it. So that's the only reason I didn't kind of clarify it with her. But Resuad of Gore, thanks for being with us as Flat Earth Live Chat will be hilarious, can't wait. It should be juicy. Grimlock says, 100 likes and James reveals his death ray. We're at a 101, thank you guys for your support. But yeah, I am, Larry Letts says, you should get a green screen. We should! Now let me show you what's behind this bad boy. The Shire Cryer says, James dipped into the study aids tonight, feeling good. Man, I didn't, I only had like two cups of caffeine. Maybe I had like 300 milligrams. So that's a pretty good amount. But it's not nearly as much as I used to have. Now, I've been like cutting back on my caffeine. I used to have like four or 500 milligrams a day, which is, for me, I think it was affecting my sleep. Now I'm down to like 300 at most. That was today. You guys, check this out. It doesn't get any more epic than this. Behind the secret, the sensual curtain. It's not really sensual. But this mirror, I use, you can see, there it is, you can see my ear in it. I use this to constantly check my ears. Not really. This picture, oops, one of my favorites. What I did for a friend of mine, he's a professional friend, like a really kind person, is that we were both, you could say fans, to some extent, of Carl Jung and Sigmund Freud. Not everything they said. But basically, I photoshopped our heads onto their bodies. And I put this picture in a scrapbook for that person who moved away. Now you can see, here's my face. Isn't that awesome? It looks like it's part of the picture. So that's G Stanley Hall right here, in terms of psychology, another big time player. And, but yeah, I'm huge into psychology. So now you know. But this is, it's like fun to show you guys this. I feel like, I don't know if I should, I don't think anybody would mind. Basically, this is my cohort who I came in for the PhD. I love my cohort. They're tremendous. I've got nothing but love for them. And so I am thankful for them. And let me just make sure I don't run over my magnet. You guys, it is snowing here like crazy. The last time I checked, the snow was just coming down rapidly, and it was just furiously gigantic flakes. It was crazy. It was amazing. So we do appreciate you guys. We wanna say we, that was a fun time. I honestly really appreciate Ariel and Kay. They honestly, I just really appreciate their personalities. And so we're at night eight to one. So I appreciate the channel, James. It's always good to challenge my views and realize I'm right. I like it. Grimlock, thanks for your super chat, buddy. But yeah, Darth Revan says, leather shows don't like all the people in chats, but at least you do good work and get people to debate topics kudos to you. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I always kinda wonder, I'm like, should, and I'm like super open to this. Let me know, should we be like, should we bring the hammer down more on trolls in the chat? Let me know because I'm like, should we, I mean, it's a gray area where I wanna be careful because it's a debate channel. It's gonna be rough and tumble in the chat. So I wanna be careful. I'm like, I'm like, I do not like the trolls. There are a lot of trolls. And so it's like, I go back and forth on this. I sympathize. Zebulon181 says, James, glad you're here, Zebulon. And then Cider and Port says, no, it's a whiteboard to only fan, James's only fans, like definitely not on only fans, but Kikan Osuki777, thanks for being with us, buddy. We're glad you are here. And, but yeah, we're excited about, yeah, this Friday's debate, I love this poster. See this poster? I'm like, you guys didn't know it. Old school WWE, I'm a huge fan. And so, let's see, I just saw somebody gave feedback on, Stripper Liquor says, I suggest you change it up with what's behind the curtain, put something unique each time. That's true. Oh, you're right. That is actually a good idea. Like maybe I show like one thing per time or something. That would make it more exciting. Otherwise, sometimes people would like give their likes and then they'd take them back. They're like, what? It's the same as last time. I'm taking my like back. But yeah, we're pumped. Thank you guys for your support. And then Reza Wad of Gore said, a debate on whether proper grammar and spelling are still important would be interesting. Thanks for the great content. That was an interesting idea. I appreciate that. And thank you so much for your kind words, though. I appreciate you being so positive. And, Taliesin Oberlander, you're right. We were almost gonna host a debate on who really killed JFK. And it wasn't that we thought it was like too controversial. It was just that I was like, eh, should we keep going with the conspiracies? We've had a lot of conspiracy stuff. But Larry Letts says, you really should put up a surprise each debate night for this. That's true. I really should. Let me think about how I could do that. But yeah, we, yeah, we just, that was a quick debate. That was probably one of the quicker ones we've had. But you know, it was great. I enjoyed it.  I agree. You know, there are a lot of trolls. And so we're like, hey, man. Hey, man, knock it off. That's what I say. Stanley Hakujor. Thanks for being with us, buddy. Appreciate you. And, and then Colin Lorenz. Thanks for having my back on the Twitch live chat. I seriously appreciate that. If you're still listening to, let's see. But yes, I wanna let you know. Yeah, you guys, we're pumped. And so if you do wanna help the channel out, giving us a rating on the podcast helps. So we do appreciate that. And yeah, I just appreciate you guys. You guys make it fun here. So thank you guys for everything. You have helped us a lot. Grimlock says, bookshelf reveal, Pine Creek Doug is interested. Is that what he does? I don't know. Maybe what I should do is like show you, like maybe I should pull up a book each time. I've got a lot of books here. They're not behind, well, there's some behind me, but there's more of them are on the shelf over here. And there's some pretty, like some of my favorite books, pretty interesting. Whoa. I've got one that I should show you guys. It's like a really cool one because it's signed by the author and the author's kind of famous. That's like one of my favorite little things I've got over there. But yeah, we do appreciate you guys for hanging out with us. I'm glad you're glad you're here. Thanks so much that you came by. And William, thanks for being with us, buddy. I hope you're doing well. And but yeah, we're pumped you guys about the future. And thank you for all your support. Is there anything, you know, shoot me an email at moderndaydebate at gmail.com. If there's something I can do to make your day better. We do appreciate you guys. Seriously, I love you guys. You guys make it fun for me. When I'm doing my work during the day, I have mixed feelings. If I'm lecturing, I'm usually in a good mood. I love teaching. If I, after I'm done lecturing, I'm pretty tired and I rest a long time. But I'd say I take like an hour break. And then also, oh, good joke on that. Zirafa says, any bets on Ted DiFlatiasi versus Hulk Globe Man? That's really good, man. You're right. I didn't even pay attention when I made the thumbnail, but I, looking at the boots, I was like, that's gotta be the million dollar man that Hulk Hogan was dropping the leg on. So, but yeah, we are excited, you guys.  And so, Bible Burners says, James Checkhold, God is not great from Hitchens. I think I might own a copy of it. I never read it. I'm not trying to be mean. I know that some of you guys, Hitchens was a great speaker. I don't think his arguments for atheism were that good. I know that's, to some of you guys, that's sacrilegious. There are just really tough, there are philosophers out there, like J.L. Mackie and William Rowe, I think were the toughest debate, like toughest atheist philosophers. But, Adam Elbilius says, basically, if you're pro being arm in public at all time, whether it's day or night, why are you arguing that the reason is because it's dark at night, it's irrelevant? Are you trying to confuse me? But, Larry Letts, you really have, you have Ted DiBiase's autograph, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I like, I do love like old school, like late 80s, early 90s, wrestling was pretty rockin'.  That was really like really cool stuff. And so, but yeah, I'm excited you guys, thank you for all of your support. Thank you guys for all your love. And like I said, let me know if there's something I can do to support you and make your day easier. Tussbeatbox says, show your feet. Nasty, nasty guy. But yeah, I do appreciate you guys, let's see. We, it's always fun. I hope you guys have a great rest of your night and we'll be back tomorrow with that debate, which should be epic and I appreciate all you guys. So thank you and have a great rest of your night. We'll be back tomorrow and then we'll be back Friday for this bad boy, five years for his globe Earth with good old, withs it gets it and newcomer Paul Komish, who's a pilot. So that should be fun. Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable. Everybody take care. Thanks, Stanley Akajor says, congrats on 43,000 subs. That's encouraging buddy, that's true. That happened I think like during last night's stream, we turned over to 43,000. So that's really cool. That's encouraging. We've got big aspirations for the future. And so we do appreciate you guys. We love you. Thanks for everything and we are determined. You guys, this channel is just gonna keep providing a bigger and more neutral platform all the time as we strive to complete, to fulfill, to bring about the vision of hosting debates on a truly level playing field for everybody to make their case for their position. So thanks everybody. We appreciate you. Thanks Adam Elbilio for your love. So thanks for your time. Appreciate that buddy. Thank you for hanging out. It makes it more fun for me. And Colin Lorenz says, love all. Hi wit, twit. Thanks for coming. Glad you're here. So better late than never. Glad you made it. I love you guys. Thanks everybody. We hope you have a great rest of your night. And so thanks everybody. Keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable.


welcome to another walk-and-talk. Noor and I are out on a wet cold winter morning and that's how we do a little photography talk. Today's subject is how many frames is enough for film photography. I just saw a video talking about the new Pintex film camera that they've been developing. I've been kind of excited about this ever since I heard about them developing a film camera and then when I saw what the camera was going to be my heart sunk somewhat. I was a little bit disappointed. So it appears that Pintex's entry into the film photography camera market is going to be a half frame vertical format camera. I was hoping for at least a full frame camera, at least full 35 millimeter frame size camera. Their their thinking and their reasoning behind it seems to be a little odd to me. It seems like their selling point is that now you'll have twice the frames. Just like shooting with a smartphone or digital camera you can do a lot more photography for the same amount of money. Double the photography and it'll be great for social media because you'll be shooting vertically. Let me say that just because this approach won't meet my needs or it's not what I want in a camera doesn't mean they won't be successful or find a market for it. But to me it just feels like they've kind of missed what I think film photography is or why a lot of people choose to shoot film in 2024. Their answer to the cost of film is well I'll just give you twice as many frames and you'll be happy with that. Where they seem to have that digital mentality that you can just go out and shoot tons of frames. They'll be so happy. Every time you push the shutter it's gonna be satisfaction. And that might be what a lot of people get satisfaction out of. For me the satisfaction in film photography is the making of the image. It's the contemplation of making the photo. It takes me a long time to get through a 36 exposure roll of film. My approach to photography was shaped in the film days. I've never been one to go out and make tons of frames when making photos. I've always been pretty conservative in that regard. And that's probably just because I learned with film. I once watched a video of a guy talking about why he would never use film. Because when he goes out and takes pictures he usually shoots like 300 frames at least. His question is how much would that cost me? And my question would be well do you really need to shoot 300 frames? What is it you're doing that you need to make 300 images? I can see that in a sporting event or something. We're just walking around casually making photos. I just wonder how much seeing the person is doing that they can't do it with less frames. So you can't really have that that mindset that digital mindset when you're using film. For a lot of people film photography it's about slowing down. It's about being contemplative. It's about knowing that's the composition you want before you hit the shutter button. I've got a muddy morning here. To people that have never used film they might think it's a odd thing to not blast away. To not just take a picture every time you, you know, have a whim to do so. When I did journalism with film we had to be pretty selective of what we photographed because we had to go back and develop this stuff. I didn't want to go back with ten rolls of film on every assignment. I would love to take two or three rolls and develop that and I think I've adopted a lot of that in my digital photography because whatever I photograph if I make a thousand frames of something I gotta edit this stuff. Something that I found kind of interesting thinking back to when we transitioned from film to digital. One would think our photography would have gotten better because we could see the back of the camera and know we're getting the shots. What I think was happening was we, it just made us faster. We made photos till we found what was good enough and then we headed back to the office where with film you didn't know if you had all the shots you needed and if everything was going to turn out. So we often would stay longer and make a few more frames and in that period of time a lot of times we would come up with maybe one of our best shots because we stayed longer committed more time to the shoot to the photos because we didn't know we had the shot. Yeah it's coming down and I feeling it was going to be like that on today's walk. It's just what you got to do sometimes. I already find it a challenge to get the image quality I want out of a 35 millimeter frame. I can't even imagine trying to cut that in half. Often I think 35 millimeter may not be quite big enough but it is a fun challenge and I think if you're careful you can get quite a bit of image quality out of 35 millimeter full frame. I guess it depends on what you're gonna use the camera for. Now I don't want this to sound negative because I think so far it does. I hope that they succeed in attracting more people to film photography but I'm not sure trying to compete with digital by just giving more frames and less quality is is the answer. I really would like to have a fixed lens point-and-shoot kind of camera something with a good quality lens on it. I mean I've said I don't shoot film casually but there are times where I wouldn't mind a nicer compact setup something with a like a 28 millimeter out in the woods that I could put in my pocket pull out that would be kind of cool. I don't know how this would distinguish you would distinguish this camera from a disposable camera that she's full frame image quality. It'd be interesting to see what the image quality how they compare. Probably still gonna have better image quality on the half frame if they have a decent lens but still I don't know. Hopefully I've communicated what I'm trying to say here this unscripted walking and talking is can be a bit of a challenge. I am happy that somebody's coming out with new film cameras. I'm just not sure how many people are gonna find a half frame camera all that appealing. It seems to me that with this approach why not just use your smartphone. What's so special about film it do you use film just for the sake of using film and you want to say it's on film. I mean I the one place I can see this really being kind of a cool asset would be for photos of family members gatherings birthdays that kind of thing. That does make some sense and maybe that's what people want out of this kind of camera. For me I use you know that's where my smartphone comes in but maybe that's the market they're going for is for someone who wants to document their everyday life and they don't need bigger than a four by six print. That that does make sense but as a person who uses photography probably a little more seriously is an art form. I'm a little bit disappointed by the announcement of this camera. Maybe they'll come out with something different now down the road. If they do I hope that it is a full frame camera full frame 35 millimeter. Honestly though I'd love to see them step back into the medium format. Give me a medium format camera even a fixed lens one I would be all over that. I guess I'm gonna hope that they have success with this and I'll be hoping that maybe this is just the first step into something a little more for artists and professional photographers down the road. My answer to the rising cost of film will just be more contemplative. Think about my shots more. So what do you think? Is this the camera you've been waiting for? Is this the the camera for you? Are you excited about this announcement? Or are you looking for or hoping for something a little different? And like I said before just because it's not great for me doesn't mean it's not great for somebody. May not meet my needs but it might meet somebody else's needs. So hopefully if this is the camera you've been waiting for hopefully you'll get it and make some some good photos. Well Nori and I are getting soaked. So we're gonna end today's video right here. Until next time thanks for coming along for the ride. Hey, thank you girl. You wet? Come on, let's go.