Although when you eat a high protein diet, one that hits close to a gram of protein per pound of body weight, picking the right protein can be kind of like splitting hairs. I will say this, there are some proteins that are more suitable for bulking. For example, whey protein. Whey protein is probably one of the best proteins you can consume when it comes to bulking. Why? It has the lowest effect on satiety. One of the biggest challenges when you're bulking is getting enough calories. A lot of people find that to be a challenge, especially people with really fast metabolism. Well, protein tends to kill appetite. So any of you who've ever bulked, who have trouble bulking, no, eating high protein, but also getting enough calories, boy, can that be a struggle. Well, whey protein might be the solution. It produces the least satiety among the different types of protein, meaning you can hit those protein targets and still be hungry enough to eat those calories that you need to build muscle. I didn't know that. Yeah, it is. So whey is less satiating than like a vegan protein? It's the, yes, nominally, but compared to like casein or especially like bone broth or collagen, like collagen protein produces a lot of satiety. Interesting. It kind of becomes a gel in your stomach. And so it, but whey, it, like your body digest it very quickly. Is this based off of like surveying people after they take it and then then reporting back that, because I could see where whey would report back that way because it tastes the best. So people would be like, oh, it was so good. I still want more versus like, if I have to like put down like a vegan protein or maybe a bone broth, although you rave about the problem. Yeah. No, it's not necessarily the palatability. It's the after effect. Interesting. I stay full after a particular protein. So like, for example, collagen, it's not as high in, in branching amino acids, gram per gram, not as, I guess, high quality. Again, I do want to clarify though and be clear. If your protein intake is high where it's supposed to be, then the type of protein you consume really doesn't matter because you're getting enough amino acids period. But that being said, collagen protein fills you up. It produces a lot of satiety because it takes the longest to empty out of your gut. It kind of produces like a gel like, if you've ever used pure collagen, you could see it thickens up if you leave it for a while. Way is very thin, easily digestible. It empties the, the gut very quickly. And so it produces the least amount of satiety.  And I'm like, oh, I'm, I just can't do it. Like whey protein, it's like it barely affects appetite in comparison to other interesting to parse out. I mean, I definitely, I could see how like I could increase calories substantially with whey versus the other ones, but everything else I added to it was probably what was faking it. It's satiety, you know, not, not necessarily just the whey bites, the peanut butter, the egg yolks, you know, like everything else. I'm just dumping in there. Uh, but yeah, when I have just had it with just ice and you blend it with ice, like you can just, okay. Are you, are you, are you doing a lot of protein shakes right now?  Yeah. Well, not, I guess, um, I tend to do it in the morning for breakfast, but, uh, if I haven't, if I haven't hit my protein intake, then, then I'll usually like add one towards like before dinner, like after I work out or something. Yeah, that's usually when I, well, I know that's how you use it. But I mean, would you say you're doing it every day right now? Are you doing it once a week right now? Like how, I'd say a few times a week. Yeah. So it's like three to four times a week. I'm like, yeah, including whey protein. What about you right now? Yo, dude, uh, for me to hit my targets. So I weigh a little heavy right now. I'm about 215. I made me for 200 grams a day. Uh, I really have a tough time doing that with food. Once I get to like 170, I'm like, oh, I don't really want to eat more. I can eat more of like carbs, you know, but to get like to 200 grams of protein, I find myself having to kind of choke it down. I don't want to do that, right? So at least not often. So I do shakes almost every day. I have at least 40 grams of protein from a shake on a daily basis, cause it's too hard for me to hit. How about, how about you? Are you similar? Yeah. You know, right now what I noticed that's a little bit different about my diet is, um, I'm, I'm not only am I doing the creatures of habit for breakfast in the morning, which is using a vegan protein powder in there. Then I'm again, having another protein shake later on the day, which has a bit abnormal for me. Like, uh, typically like 80 grams of protein from powder or from a supplement is 70. So yeah, 70 because the Legion is not even that. So Legion is 25 plus the almost, so it's like 30 Legion is 30 something for their way. And then I'm getting 30 for the, you're trying to hit what 200? Yeah. That's not bad. No, I know it's not bad, but typically the way I, like when I start on my diet is like, of course I allow that in there because I know I need to get it. And then the goal for me is always like, oh, can I get rid of the shakes and bars and have nothing but whole foods? But I've just, just being transparent, I'm like, I don't care enough or I'm lazy right now. I'm not prepping like I normally would prep. Like kitchen and I are staying ahead a day or two meal wise, but we're not doing our week ahead. Yeah. We, when I'm like dialed, I'm doing Sunday preps like that just when I prepped Sunday for like three, four hour, her and I together in the kitchen and we're laying out a lot of meals today. I'm very consistent with my protein. I can get it all through whole foods. It's not a problem. You know why that's so effective is because when you have a little bit of space to decide what you're going to eat, that little bit of space turns into eating things you're probably not I told you, but if you don't have that space, it's easy to be like, well, I already got my food. Or what it ends up doing is you default to something quick and easy, like a shake or a bar. So it's like, you know, I, and so that's kind of where what's happened to me right now. I was like, oh, because the meal's not prepared. Oh, I need something to eat right now. I don't have something. The choice is order something from DoorDash or I'm going to just make a shake or a bar or something like that. I've been traveling so much. I think that's probably why I've ramped it up quite a bit. Like, so usually on the weekends is when I tend to do the most like protein shakes, because it's just I'm here there everywhere. So yeah, that's that's so much more convenient for me to do that, like, you know, blend it up real quick and get out by the way, in terms of health benefits, because since we're talking about way, and you mentioned Legion, they have a really, really good way shake. The health benefits. I don't know if you guys know that there's lots of studies on the immune boosting, cognitive boosting, gut health boosting effects of whey. Did you know that by itself? Okay, well, don't you think that's directly connected just purely to it's not just purely protein? No, no way itself. Now, here's the caveat, right? If you can't tolerate dairy like me, then this doesn't this doesn't count. So I can't have dairy. Yeah, but how do you see the percentages of that? It's like in terms of people are lactose intolerant depends where you're from in the world. Yeah. And it's not just lactose intolerance for me. Most people who can't have dairy is lactose. Some people, it's the dairy protein. Yeah, but let's let's forget about those people because I'm curious about this study because there's a lot of studies by my speculation would be that when we talk about this all the time, most people grossly under consumed protein. So if I took a group of normal people and then I and then if this is how the study goes, these 500 people, let's say we don't tell them to do anything, we measure the cognitive effects. And then these people, we just all we do is add away shake. I guarantee you're going to see a boost your cognitive performance because they have more protein. Yes, you're right, but that's they actually have it's actually weight protein has a weight protein supplementation has a lot of studies and they're not just muscle building and performance. There's a lot of health studies, a lot of gut health studies, immune boosting studies, and they do controls like that. What's unique about the protein? It's probably most complete. Well, they think it has to do with the branch human-elastic content. The peptides, whey peptides seem to have some beneficial effects. It just it's got of all the proteins that have been studied for its health benefits, collagen, also collagen is up there, but collagen is more specific to like skin, hair, joint health, whey, maybe Doug, you can even look this up, look up whey protein and health or whey protein and gut health. And you'll see and I know this because I have a my godson's got Crohn's disease. And when that first happened, you know, we all went down the rabbit hole of things that could help and whey protein. Interesting. Yeah. So again, it has to be well tolerated. Now back to what you said, Justin. Lactose and a protein, a milk protein intolerance are two different things. And usually if you have if you have lactose intolerance, you have a higher chance of also having the protein intolerance. But what does that say there? Whey protein may be beneficial for inflammatory bowel disease. Yeah. Yeah. So look at the 10 evidence click on that. That's health line. So this is a medical website. Look at the go down the list of the health benefits to the TV turned off, but you can read them to us. Yeah. So excellent source of high quality protein promotes muscle growth, may lower blood pressure, may help treat type two diabetes, may help reduce inflammation, those three are funny, may be beneficial for inflammatory bowel disease. That's interesting. May enhance the body's antioxidant defenses, may have beneficial effects on blood fats is highly satiating. Well, there you go. Two or three of those are interesting. Yeah. So and you can help you lose weight. That's the last one. Yeah. So so that's a lot of those we know why. Yeah. Right. But some of them are interesting. No, some of them are. There's at least two or three and then that. Oh, that's interesting. That's a that's an interesting fact. Like some of them are obvious. Like you have to be careful like taking that information helps you lose weight. Well, why? Well, because if you increase the replacement Donald's that's why if you eat 2,000 calories and you add the counter calories away, you're going to lose weight. But you know, back to what you were saying, Justin, lactose intolerance depends on the part of the world you're from. So like if you're peep like from the European, you're probably northern European, very small percentage lactose intolerant Mediterranean, much higher Asian, much higher. I think like up to 60 percent of people from the Asian countries, depending where Africa are intolerant. Yeah. In Africa, here's a weird one. They're less intolerant. No, there's a high lactose intolerance, except for a specific region. OK, that's why. So when you look at northern Europeans, they have this gene that helps them continue to break down lactose, right? Babies can break down lactose, but we lose the ability as we get older or some people do. But northern Europeans have this gene that continues to allow them to do so. There's a region in Africa. They evolve to have a different gene that still allows them to do this, like the Maasai tribe consume a tremendous amount of milk, have no problem digesting. Somebody was just telling me about a company that exists right now that does. OK, you do it.  Yeah, I know. Those have been around for a while. How they not the blood type one I'm talking about. Not to me. Like there's like what region you're from. I'm like I forget the guy told me the name of it. So if it's based off genes specifically, there's there's some cool science behind it, but it's still preliminary. If it's based off region, here's the problem. Like, do you know anybody besides me that is from one freaking region? Well, not my whole family.  It's not the greatest example, but it doesn't mean that's not it can't be like that in Italy or other places in the world where, you know, just because a majority of people eat a certain way doesn't mean every single person in that area eats that way. So you could be in a region where I just mean if you're just, you know, most people, their parents and their grandparents like come from like five different regions, like which one do you eat? Like my grandmother came. Well, I've always thought it was fascinating that there's there's certain foods like like there's there's Mexican food that I feel like it's just you would think should upset my stomach and it doesn't upset my stomach. And then there's other things that I think it was like I should be able to digest. There has to be something with bacteria there, though, like it's passed on as well, right? Because like, yeah, evolutionary about that with like spices and things that just like destroy certain people and other people are just like, totally. Yeah, I'm thrive with it. So I've always thought that I'm like, this should mess me up. You know what I'm saying? Because I see how it affects other people. So that doesn't affect. Did you know, by the way, I learned this the other day there was this post. Maybe we can double check this because I didn't I didn't fact check it. But this guy was talking about how white Italy is one of the healthier Western nations and they listed some stuff that was like, well, that's we'll see. I don't know if that necessarily sign community. And then they also have stricter rules with GMO stuff too. Yeah. Those are the three that he said. Wow. You hit the nail on the head. Now, the GMO story Adam Wait a minute. Did I share it with you? No, no, are you on that C Max or what? No, I took it to Sporting, dude. I also gave you that I did. I did do the digital. What do you think of that? So far, so good. It's still early, right? Well, it's only been in my system. I gave him the joy mode. Oh, you did get a boner. Wow, stay over there. That's exactly what he said. No, actually, you'll feel that it feels good. OK, so not in that way, by the way, everybody calm down. No, back to the protein, though. It's interesting because protein powders have different value depending on if you're bulking or if you're cutting. If you're cutting, I think it's more valuable when you're cutting to avoid protein powder because you want to be satiated, right, with food. You want to eat food that's going to not make you want to overeat. However, protein powders value when you're cutting is you could get just protein with no other calories. Yeah, I was just going to challenge that because that's the value I use. I actually loved. So one of my favorite things to do was use just like a straight like Legion has their pure vanilla way, which is like I want to say it's I mean, could correct me if I'm wrong. It's like a hundred and something calories, just protein. Yeah, a hundred something calories for like 25 grams of protein.  Just it would just basically ice, water and that or I'll do almond milk, which is you can get almond milk with 30 calories or like that.  Yeah, I think the value is that is that you could get the protein with no fat, no carbs for bulking. I think the value of protein is it gets hard to eat that many calories when you're hitting high protein and protein shake is an easy way. There's only a hundred calories. Yeah, 100 calories, 22 grams is even lower than what I thought. Yeah, 100 calories plus some almond milk which you can get for 30, 30 calories. You're talking about like 130 and you just blend it on on a ton of ice. So it's thick. And that's like when I was, because when you, okay, when you cut That's a good trick because it bulks in. Yeah, well, when you're cutting, when you're cutting like consistently, especially as hard as I was for like shows, like you learn to be hungry. Like that's just part of, part of it. Like you accept it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, anybody, anybody who thinks you're going to diet like that and be like, oh, I never was hungry. Like, no, you're not doing it right then. It's like you, you are going to be hungry because you are consistently under eating what your body wants, right?  And a lot of times like when I remember going to bed, like that you just want to go to bed and go to sleep because you're so hungry going to bed. And so that would be like my last thing that I kind of be sipping on that laying in bed and that way I get something and then I would fall asleep and then make it, make it a lot easier. Hey, how, at what point, cause you've gotten down to pretty shredded. I've never been in a show, but I've gotten down to like before. Oh, you've been pretty close. I've gotten pretty lean. But you've been pretty close. Do you remember the point where you realized like, oh, I just, I just have to accept the fact that I'd be hungry all the time. It was like a game changer for me. When I accepted it and just learned to like, just feel this. So I used to tell clients, I know like my science nerds will totally like jump all over this, but I just think it's a good metaphor or example for clients is like, I used to tell them when that happens, that's your body switching over from glucose over into metabolizing fat. So when you feel that way, I'd say that that might not even be true, but it's a good thing. Right. Like I know like, of course, like some of that will technically it works like this, you know, that way they build a different relationship. That's exactly what I would teach them. I'd say, listen, as soon as you feel that feeling, that's that's that system switching over. It's no longer using glucose carbohydrate. It's now using your body fat. So the longer you can sustain that and work through that just, and so they used to love that. And it worked for me too. I'd tell myself that it's just like, hey, I'm metabolizing fat right now. So I'm getting leaner by the minute. Here's why you're such a good trainer. So again, I'm gonna speak to the science people right now. It's behavior right there.  It doesn't matter if it's true or not. What he did is he helped people, and this works for a lot of people because appetite in cravings is a big challenge. What he did is he's teaching them to develop a different relationship with the feeling of hunger. The relationship they developed, if they listened to you and believed it was, oh, this is a good feeling. Not the relationship most people have, which is I gotta get rid of this feeling. You're panicking. I gotta get rid of this hunger feeling. I don't know what to do with it. I know, that's what I once I accepted it, that's exactly how I felt. Like, okay, well, I'm getting leaner. I'm getting leaner. Just gonna be hungry all day long. Chew a lot of gum. Today's giveaway maps split. Here's how you can win. Leave a comment below this video in the first 24 hours that we drop it. Subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications. If you win, we'll notify you in the comment section. We're also running a sale this month on our Correctional Exercise Pain Relieving Programs. Maps Prime, Maps Prime Pro and the Prime Bundle, which is already discounted, you can take an additional 50% off all of those. If you're interested in this month's promotion, click on the link at the top of the description below. All right, back to the show. You know what I used to do? This is so bad. I mean, it actually works. I'd buy carbonated water. So if you get carbonated water and I'd add a little salt to the rim and a little lime and pretend it was a B.M. Empty margarita. Yeah, yeah, I would drink it and be like, Oh, I did stuff like that. I did stuff like that. I had all kinds of like rice cake things like that. I mean, there's a lot of actually things that if you are, try what you say.  You are like an angry diner. I remember when you all leave that show, you were all like, He gets angry. That's why I don't ever go all in. You guys are like 100%.  First of all, hold on, hold on a second. So do we. The difference is this. Here's why you have a challenge with it, Justin, because you reject so strongly the whole look at me aesthetic attitude. So for you, it's like, why am I doing this?  Yeah, it gets to that point where you push me far enough and I'm like, I don't even like this. Which I believe I can relate to you on that one because it's one of the reasons why I have a hard time right now, like getting really lean. Because I don't care enough. Like I just don't care enough to really want to do that. And I've already, for me, the competitive side is what got me before. Like I don't. We've had to get on this. I have to do that. Yeah, I'm competitive. And so if it's me versus other people and me trying to prove that I've got more knowledge and this like that, I leaned into that. And it was just like, yeah, watch me do this, right? And then once I've done it, it's kind of like, yeah, I don't really want to go in there. You know, it's funny. I got to tell the audience what it's like working with confident, self-aware, stable men. So we're all kind of in this like, it's good and bad, right? We're all kind of this like, oh, let's get lean stage. We kind of talked about it.   I start doing that. And Justin laughs at me like, this is yesterday. I'm like, oh, I'm singing songs about getting lean.  Justin's like, nobody cares, though. I walk out defeated. I felt a little bad.    I said, you do look less fat. All right, yeah, less, less puffy chicks. He doesn't care, though. You know what I used to do with, so I used to, my first mentor, Don, good friend of mine, right? I was 18 when I worked under him and there was a period there where both of him and I were like, let's get lean, right? This is when I was always bulking. So I didn't even know what that meant. But I'm like, all right. Well, we used to mess with each other. And one of the things I would do is I'll mess up. This is how hilarious it was. I would go get lunch for us. And I'd put like extra mayonnaise on his sandwiches or like extra sugar in his coffee. I wouldn't even tell him. Baker and I used to do that when we lived together.   What? Dude, cause he's so dense. You know what I'm saying? Throw in an extra 200 calories. He's like, wow, this is only 300 calories. It tastes amazing. Yeah, that's messed up. Well, there was money on the line for us, right? We were like, dunk.  Of course. Yeah, it was fair game. You know what I'm saying? Everybody messing with each other. Did you ever do the candy bars and the person's like a desk? And I would buy the candy bars and put it in Don's office? What time you got so bad? Mess with their willpower. Bro, back then the gym space was so crazy. It was so Wild West. I remember one time I kept doing that. I kept putting candy bars and he always had a tough time getting lean, right? He always, he gets strong and big. Getting lean was hard. And I remember one time I was outside his office and I literally loaded his desk with light candy. And he just got, I don't know what happened early in the day. He must have got mad at his ex. I don't know what it was.  He's like, stop, like yelling from the gym.   It's just funny. I didn't share it on the podcast. I should share it now because Katrina called me out on it. So I've talked long, if you've listened long enough, you've heard me talk about my sugar addiction or anything. Yeah. Like for sure, have got a really good handle on that. But there's, there's these moments where I go to the movie theaters with my son. I get, let him have some gummy bears. I have, obviously I give most of them to myself and my niece and then the little bit. It's cause you don't want them to be lucky. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So the right thing. And I'm, I'm eating it. And boy, I tell you what, and I don't know if this is a physiological thing. I don't know if it's a psychological thing or not. But I mean, I just don't have candy ever anymore. And so I had it. And boy, did I like wants.  The monster came back on whoppers, junior mints, hot tamales. Whoa. Yeah. Oh, so all those boxes. Those are big boxes too. Oh yeah. At the theater and it's like $40. You don't say like $40. Four boxes. Wow. Hey, the person's like, damn, he didn't give your little kids all that candy. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's going to other people. Hey, do you hide it by the way? So, well, so, oh, not for my son. Yeah. So I got it over here and I'm like, I'm like picking at it. And so that, but what I thought was an interesting thing, like I didn't even, I just did it, right?  And then when I was in line, I was like, oh, man, I haven't had this forever. I haven't had that forever.  And I ended up opening all of them and just having a little bit out of all of them. And the only reason why anyone knows is because I left them in the truck and Katrina Guthers. She's like, oh my God, I saw the candy that you bought. I was just like, I don't know what got into me, but it's, it's so crazy that you, it's like all I can relate. I'm probably somebody who has struggled with alcoholism has probably can relate to something like this. Where somebody just got mad right now. Yeah, like, oh, you compared alcohol.  I'm not saying it's harder or easier. But my point is like, what I thought, the disconnect that I have, right? Like I'm so disconnected from that, that I could do something like that where, you know, I'm in the moment watching the movie. I'm actually watching my son most of the time, having a great time, have a couple of his gummy bears just go, mm, that gets triggered. Okay, I'm gonna go walk with it and just do it. And then catch myself doing something like that. I'm like, wow, that's so wild to go from zero to a hundred like that over. It's not like I, I like, I go, cause Katrina can do this. Like she can buy, and I don't know if you guys can relate to this, you can do this or your wives can do this. Katrina can buy a, you know, pint of ice cream. It could stay in our freezer for six months and she could have a spoonful at a time for six months. Like just every once in a while. She's obviously psycho. Yeah, like have this weird like thing, thing where she can just go in there and just have one. That is not me. Like if it is in the house and I know it's in the house, that I'm gonna go have it. And then when I decide to go taste it, my logic is, no matter how you drum it up, it's a thousand calories.  I gotta use it. I gotta do whatever. That's the, that's the post activity where you're, what is it? Rationalization. Yeah. That's after you do it. I know it's so illogical, right? I know it's not like a smart way. I know it's a bad relationship. So you know what it is. So psychologists will talk about this, which maybe this is it. I don't know if this is it, but this is what they talk about where it you, there's a tremendous amount of willpower or discipline and behind that discipline is willpower that keeps you from doing said action. When you break the dam, then the willpower's gone. So it's like, I've already had five. Now whatever with, you know, strings of discipline was holding this together and now broken and that's it. So you'll see people with any behavior they have that they struggle with, whether it's drugs, food, alcohol, sex, electronics, whatever, that the second they can't do the whole, like I'm gonna have a little bit. It's like, that's why they don't recommend you. So what's the prevailing thing? This will be great when we have, we can talk about the psychology side when Adam Lang gets here. Cause I'm sure he'll have something to say about this. So is the, is the idea or is this, is the best strategy to work towards abstaining completely and being like eliminating or is the goal to eventually be able to re-introduce into your life and still have it here and there. So the strategy changes depending on the substance. So alcoholics. Well, let's use candy since I don't remember mine.  I mean, I guess you could always never have it. It's like so- I really never have it anymore. I really don't. You probably find never have it again. And I don't actually, when you don't have it, you don't crave it. That's the other thing, by the way that I noticed. So that was on Saturday, today's Tuesday, right? I have that or Sunday it was. I have that. It just triggers all those- Oh yeah, the last two nights before going to bed, I'm like, sweet tooth. And I haven't had that feeling in a long time cause I haven't had it in there. And all it took was sharing a couple gummy bears and popcorn with my son, which is total not normal behavior for me, sets me off to your point. And then it's just like, oh, I don't have all of these. It depends on the substance like gambling. They don't tell people who are addicted to gambling, just gamble a little bit. That's what we gotta work towards. Like things you could get away with the rest of your life never doing again. It depends on the damage of the substance. That's when they'll recommend that. Otherwise like food addiction, which is the most abused substance in modern societies is food. Obviously people abuse food more than anything else. People can't never eat. So that's one of the reasons why it's so challenging. Whereas if you have a heroin addiction, you know, you can at some point be like, I'll never use this again. What's neat about the evolution for me in this is that, so I went and did all those things. The difference today that probably that, let's say this, say 10 years ago, when if I would have done something like that, is I actually would have ate all the candy until my stomach hurt. Oh, so you didn't do that? Oh no, I didn't even, I didn't even put- Bro, that's huge progress. I didn't even put a dent in half of all those three. I just bought them because I wanted to try all of them. And then I had- That's a win. It is in a sense. Oh man, that's a big win. Like a real win would have been just to enjoy the popcorn and the gummy bears with my son. I think you're judging yourself a little harshly. 10 years ago, you're saying you would've ate all of it. Oh yeah, I would've ate all of it, it was my stomach hurt. The fact that you didn't even eat half of each, that's a huge win. You guys don't have that with anything? Well, you have chips like that. Potato chips. Well, but can they, will it make your stomach hurt if you continue? Like I will, there's certain, candy will do this, ice cream will do this. Potato chips or french fries.  Even if I don't, even I'll literally force, it's like I'm like eating only. Why am I still doing that? Yeah, that's like the candy, like I know I'm already full from it. I've already had a thousand calories yet, but I will, if it's, there's still some left, I'll keep eating until literally I get like the, like, okay, I can't have any more. Yeah, I'll throw it away. What I'll do is I'll eat chips and then I'll look at the bag and be like, I'm just gonna toss these because I know what's gonna happen later. So I'll end up throwing them away. It was, the way it was explained to me is you develop these neural pathways that are very complicated. There's the neurochemicals, dopamine, serotonin, whatever, blah, blah, blah. But there's also like psychological connections. There's lots of connections that can happen with these neural networks. And the way it was explained to me, I thought this was a brilliant way of explaining it. Think of fresh snow. So it's totally smooth, right? And then you get one person skiing down, creating a track, and another person goes down the same track. After three or four times, when you're skiing, it's almost hard not to go on that track because it's already been made. So in order to create a new pathway, you got to go through that fresh snow and it doesn't feel smooth. It doesn't feel easy. And you got to keep doing that and allow snow to fall to fill up or to kind of erase that old track. Some of these tracks, if they're developed when you're a child, are always there. There's always gonna be that connection.  So that's why like childhood traumas, never really, you could work with them, learn how to cope with them, never fully go away. Connections like we may make with sugar or foods or whatever, they may never go away. So. Yeah, I kind of go back and forth. Like I think now that I'm older, I've had so many issues with some of the foods that I used to have those propensities towards. Cookies especially, it was a big one for me. I would just like eat all of them before my brother could get them. And that was like an association I had. And now it's just the consequences of it.  Anything like that was used to be awesome. I have a completely different association with it now. So it's like, I'll do enough. I press, I guess my pressing isn't like a huge binge. It's more like, yeah dude, like what you can get away with. I'm gonna eat it. I just had like pretzels with this like dipping cheese, like when I was out in Arizona, that place we went to.  Those are so good. Yeah, I went back specifically for that because I remembered, I mean the service was terrible, but again, but literally they had those like pretzels that you could dip into this cheese. I'm so bad because I didn't get it. It destroyed me again. And I just knew it was coming, but I just had to do it. So when my gut is really bad, it's easy for me to avoid certain things because the reminder is like instant. When my gut heals. Well, that's what I'm worried about. Honestly, that's what I'm worried about.   This is what I'll do.  And it's like a strong reminder and I do real well. Then it starts to heal. And then that's what I'll do. I'll have something and I'll wait. Oh, I'm okay. Then I'll do it again. Oh, I'm still okay. And then I'll do it again. And then boom, I'm fucked. Oh, here we go again. Start to cycle over. I definitely know that there's a psychological part for sure too with me because I know that there's this connection with not having a lot, this sharing with the family. So I've talked about this also before. Yeah.  It makes me sad. You should not be sad. In fact, we were just talking about you and your family ice cream, right? I'm pretty sure you were more poor than I was. I really do believe that you actually grew up rougher than I grew up just, or maybe I felt it more. PG&E wasn't as important as us having like a Pepsi or a horse, you know what I'm saying? Bro, I saw her close with a bargain barn, you know what I'm really talking about. So you have all these kids in the house and then you get like, one package of cookies or one thing like that and you did. Whoever eats it eats it. Yeah, whoever eats it eats it. And so it would be basically you would have to do that. And so I definitely have that. I vividly remember when I moved out when I was 17 years old, one of the first things that became every, I always had like full gallon of ice cream in the freezer that was mine. Just constantly.  Like I remember making a big deal about that. I go to a grocery store and that's all I got. You also did that with air conditioning, right? You could never turn on the AC. Yes. That's why you always had that full blast. That's still today. I haven't got through that. Could you ever find about that last night, bro? It's cold. You turn the AC on? Or I open all the doors so the air's coming in, but then I like the fires. So I just get to sell them back. Well, I like the ambiance of the fire, but I like the cool air coming in, you know what I'm saying? So I'm just like- So the only person that had an issue with that was my dad, because my poor father would bust his ass, work hard physical, he had four kids though, right? So he'd buy a treat for himself.   Same thing with my mom. She did everything for everybody else. She's still like that. The one thing my dad would do, he'd come home from work, tired, we'd eat dinner and he'd watch TV and he'd eat something like ice cream. That was his one thing. Looking back, this is obvious at the time I didn't realize it, right? So he would sit down the couch, first off, couldn't find the remote control 80% of the time. That almost always turned into- Lose his mind, right? My dad's saying- Oh yeah, dude. He was looking through the couch once because he couldn't find- He was looking through the cushions everywhere. Thermostat and the remote, those are like World War Three. One time he's looking through the couches, he couldn't find- There has to be such like an 80s, 90s thing, right? I don't know what- It's so like an 80s, 90s thing, dad. Well, I mean, it's happened a few times to me where I'm like, you wanna watch something, kids are down, you're trying to find a remote, I can't find it, five minutes later.  Oh, dude. Even now. I'll never forget, he got so mad, he's looking through all the cushions and finally he broke the back down of the couch to look what he did. I don't like that. Yeah, dude. You know?  Yeah. Okay, so- You guys have to have things you buy and then- Sometimes I'll get some Reese's Cups and put them like way up high. Listen, listen. You're not a parent if you haven't done this. If you haven't gone in the pantry, close the door and ate your little snack in the pantry. Totally.   You're lying.  Okay, every, probably every parent that listens to this podcast because you're health conscious and you're trying not to let your kids see those behaviors.  I think most parents just go grab a bag of chips and eat it right from the beginning.  I'll open the pantry and it makes a distinct sound. Anywhere in the house he is. Ba-ba-ah, dude. What you eating? What you eating? Nothing. What I do now is I have certain foods he hates that he's tried many times. He doesn't like macadamia nuts. And then I sometimes use psyllium husk powder, which for some reason he thinks it's protein shake. I'll have him taste it, it doesn't taste good. So I'll go in there, I'll hit him running up and I'll grab that thing. You want some? Oh, no. I need to walk away. I'll grab the other thing. I'll grab the other thing. I'll grab the other thing. Are you sure? Are you sure you don't want this? No, I don't want it. Dude, I cannot believe my son's appetite right now. We had the other morning, we are- Is he going through a growth spurt or something? I mean, he's kind of been like this for a while. Like I know he has- Is he tall? He's tall for his age. He's actually not that tall. The doctor said so at this point, they say they can predict and they predict six foot. So they think he's not going to be as tall as I am. Yeah, that's the average height in America. I mean, that's you guys. You guys are six foot. I mean, it's not sure. I would rather be six. I've said that before. I'd rather be a little six. I'd rather be six foot than six foot. Even now as an adult? I know when you were younger because it made you not look as skinny. Yeah, I guess it's a good point, right? I mean, I'm happy. Like I wouldn't, like whatever. I'm fine with six foot, six three. But six foot would make me stock here, which I would have preferred to be. So you want same muscle mass but six foot? Especially since I didn't go anywhere with my six three. It didn't benefit me on the basketball court. It didn't benefit me in the swimming pool. You're attracted to swimming cult.  No, so that's a big deal. You're right. But I think most women would agree that once you hit the six foot, it's fine from there. Unless you're an abnormally tall woman, like if you're a five, 11 woman, you want probably six, three and above type of guy. But if you're an average height woman, six foot would be considered tall. That's what they consider tall. Most women would consider you guys tall guys too. So it's not like I'm like abnormally taller than you like that. But I'm tall enough, the thing that I never liked, oh, you always get sized up when you're that guy. When I walk into public places. You also look like the kind of guy though.  Do I?  You know what I mean? This guy's going to be a problem. Let's keep our eyes on this guy. You know what I mean? You have an air of, you're confident, but it's an air of cockiness. You know what I mean? So maybe that's what it is. That's what it is. You're the guy in the room. So you add that to six, three. Yeah, so I walk in.   I remember. Yeah, look sad. Yeah, look sad and shibble. So it's a confidence, look sad. You look loppy? Try to look loppy? You're getting less people trying to size you. You know, I remember in my like mid to late 20s, that's kind of why I had to stop going to bars and stuff like that because it was like, we almost always get into something. And I always felt like, and I was, I'm not the type of guy that wants to fight. I never went looking for fights. I always ended up protecting one of my friends or whatever, like it was, but I mean, when I go places, there always seem to be dudes that would size a guy up like me. And it's just like, oh, let me go test my strength with this guy. If you have muscles too, I mean, that's just any, like, because that happened all the time for me. Yeah.  Like, I get the dudes that are tough. They're like, yeah, they're big or they're strong or they're fighters. It's like, let me go try and fight this guy. You know, it's funny too. It's, how did you guys, you guys figured this out? Once you get to a certain age, you guys figure out how easy it is to diffuse sometimes that shit. Yeah.  Or, oh, you think you're tough. Like, no, these muscles are just for looks. Done. Yeah. Like I took me a long time to figure it out. Self deprecating humor is very powerful in a situation like that. If you have the ability to kind of pick on yourself, which by the way too is another form of real confidence because I mean, and I didn't learn that till later when I started hanging around other fighters and dudes that were real bad asses. Most of those guys, there's a, there's a still small sliver than there are massively insecure. Most of them are very confident in what their capabilities are. And they're the easy going guys. Nixon Gracie is widely known, or I guess considered the best Gracie family member for in terms of fighters. He did an interview once and he talked about that confidence. And he goes to the reporter or person asking him, he goes, would you get mad? And if a five year old came up to you and the guy's like, no. And he goes, because you feel no threat. He goes, that's how I feel. When somebody comes up to me, I feel no threat. That's such a great analogy to cure yourself. You know what else he said, which is crazy. People used to challenge the Gracies all the time and there's one fight in particular where people would challenge him and he'd fight them. And he says, he said, we'll fight in my dojo, no cameras. And the guy goes, no, we'll fight out here. And I want to record it. He goes, okay, I'll give you two options. If we fight in my dojo, no cameras, I'll stop when you tell me to stop. If we fight with the cameras, I'll stop when I feel like stopping. And the guy's like, I'll fight you in the dojo. You know, that's kind of a crazy thing to hear from someone. I don't know if I want to keep doing that. Do you remember ever a time where you almost got into it? Like where were you most scared about a potential altercation that you were about to get into? Like have you ever been in a situation where you own like a UFC fighter or a guy like that was trying to start something with you or was there ever a moment where you're like, oh, this is hard. No, but I recognized one one time at a bar and like I had a few drinks in me and I think he thought I was like one of those guys, you know, that were like, hey bro, you know, you're that guy on TV.  And so I recognized him and I was like, oh man, I think I saw you on like whatever that show is on. Ultimate fighter? Yeah, ultimate fighter. He was like an ultimate fighter guy. And so he kind of like, you know, peacocked me and kind of like lunged at me. And I was like, whoa, I just like, I just wanted to say hi, you know, I just kind of moved on. But I was like, he was like ready to go, dude, he was all cocked and ready to go. I always feel, and I think people are lying when they don't feel, there's always a sense of fear when you know something's gonna happen.  But the most fear I ever felt was in Cabo. We were at a bar and it got late and the crowd changed from like the tourists to like the locals. And one of my buddies had a little bit of a, a little bit of an altercation with one of the bouncers. And you saw all these locals start to gather together. And I'm like, we're not in America. I don't know what could happen here.  Yeah, like this could be really bad. And so we bounced. But I remember feeling the air, feeling tense and being like, I felt- Yeah, that group tension just like, dude, that reminds me of- Like they run the show there, you know? You don't want to be- Yeah, we were at a bar, it was in San Francisco and me and my friend and it was like, no, nobody's really in there yet. And we were just sitting at a bar drinking and this guy came up and, you know, we just kind of look over to our right and this dude was like a Tongan guy who was like really big and we're like, oh, hey, start talking with him, super nice. But then all of a sudden the bar we look out and the whole bar just filled up with like Tongan people.  And it just like, I don't know, at that moment I just felt like, dude, like somebody could squash me in like two seconds. But they're the friendliest, like fun loving people. I was like, dude, I was like super scared for a minute. Massive, yeah. Yeah, there was a, who was that one, you guys know that guy that, he worked out at Santa Teresa. He was like- Isaac Sopalaga. In his fifties? Oh, I thought you were talking about Isaac, who was the, he played for the Niners. No, I saw him too. Oh, you're talking about- There's this like 50 something year old- Tubblefield, Stebblefield. I don't know. Dana Stebblefield. I don't know, he looked, he was too- He's in his fifties, look up Dana Stebblefield, he's like in his fifties. I want to talk to him. Oh no, there's a big black guy. No, no, no, no, this was like, I think he was, did I talk to him? I want to say- The Tongan guy is Isaac Sopalaga, who used to be a lineman for the 49ers, who I've told stories about. I saw him too though. But that's just a, he's just a- Oh, he's massive, strong. He's the one I told you, Skull Crushin' like 90 pound dumbbells, right next to me. No, no, no, no, no. He's a beast, dude. Well, I was jacked at that time too, like I was all feeling myself. Yeah, no, no, there was this dude, and he was in his late fifties, because I asked him, I specifically asked him, because he was benching, he was probably 250 lean, and he was benching four plates, and he was just like, it was moving like 135, like bink, bink, bink. And he would always come in, he would get real bloodshot eyes while he was working out.  And he's like, he gave me this crazy number like 30 years. Like, wait a minute, how old are you? He was like 58, like no, you look like you're 40, tripping me out. Kirby was at the here, Steve Cook say he was benching 225 in sixth grade. I mean, yeah. Sixth grade? There's some genetics. Well, that is wild to me. I was in my 20s, and I still couldn't do the wheels. I didn't even know how to bench press, I think. Who was, what was his name? Bobby Harris? Did he work for 20 for Bobby Harris? Yeah, yeah. You ever watch him squat? No, but I heard how strong he was, because he's really close friends with Marcucci and with Baker. They were all around. He didn't work out, and he went out and squatted six plates. They didn't even work out. Like that. Yeah, I mean, you could tell you look at the guy. He's just, he's just jacked. Yeah. Oh yeah. He got a squat five, six plates. Like, what is that coming from, bro? Yeah, it just makes me mad. Yeah, I know. It's so frustrating. But do they have the number one fitness podcast in the world? I don't. Makes me feel better. You see, speaking of our podcast, so I've been exploiting my son, trying to get him to do like our commercials and sort of that. Yeah, yeah, whatever we have, one like that. So you're just handling products? Yeah, so I did. Well, I did, I don't, do you remember the video? I used to do that. I remember the video I did of the magic spoon, and it was like a terrible one. It was just like, he wasn't working with me, whatever. I got a good one on ButcherBox, right? So ButcherBox, he's, so he's got these. I, we didn't know this until I think they had, they, I think they ran a special, maybe like six months or so ago. I don't remember recall when it was. And Katrina actually, I think, heard us talk, mention it.  Oh my God. Cause that's like one of Max's favorite. Have you tried them? I haven't tried them yet. The best, I listen, I swear to God, the best gluten-free chicken nuggets I've ever had in my entire life. Yeah, they're both. Like the best. Yeah. They're really good. I couldn't believe that we had to make it funny right there. No, no, no. Every time we go to like sushi, no, no, they're really, they're really good. And I can't believe that we are, I was ordering. We were buying somebody else's chicken nuggets because I just didn't think that ButcherBox had chicken nuggets and Katrina had that. Oh yeah, I had no idea. And so now that's all we, we get. And so I got, I got a little video of like us making them the other day and, and, and got him to actually do like a better commercial stuff. Oh, what is that? Oh, ButcherBox, are those your favorite? They taste like really good fried chicken. Like really, you like air fry them? Like, you know, they're already because you just heat them up in the oven. Yeah, we just throw them in the oven. Do them in the oven so they get kind of crispy. Yeah. They literally, it tastes like, like legit fried chicken and it's gluten-free. Sick. They're like, Jessica and I ordered them originally for Araleas. We now eat them ourselves. Like we just. ButcherBox, ButcherBox has truly really, I mean, I'm in for the price that you get because when you get stuff like that, obviously in the grocery store, you pay a much higher price. So to get the quality of food that you get from them and delivered to your door, like I've been. Oh, see now you can order, anybody can order them now. Yes. So what they were, so here's what happened. They were like a special thing, right? So somebody told me about them, might've been you guys because you guys might've got them at one point. And I went on their site and I couldn't find them. They were only offered as a special for new members. Now, of course, we have connection to ButcherBox.  Get me them nuggets. Katrina went crazy the other day. I was going through our credit card bill and stuff like that. And I'm always like, I'm that husband. What's this charge for 200 bucks? What's the change? I don't know if anybody else in here is that. I had to mind you. Yeah, yeah, I'm so that guy, right? So terrible. And I'm asking, there's like a $300, some dollar charge to ButcherBox. I'm like, we can PutcherBox for free. What are we doing paying three or some bucks? But I guess they had some like crazy deal add-ons. The add-ons get us. So we have our, you know, we don't get it for free. We get a lot in amount, all of us do, right? With the company, which is. What are the add-ons right now, Doug? Because I've seen before lobster tail on there. I've seen like lunch meats or whatever, what they call charcuterie. Charcuterie meats? Oh, I haven't done that. You didn't know that? I got a lot of catching up to do that. I mean, there's all kinds of things you can add on. And they've got pork carnitas, apple gouda sausages, pork sirloin, roasts, sweet and smoky salmon bites, all kinds of delicious things. Yeah, and they change them up. They change them up. So you know, I bet you never even been on site.  Because charcuterie is like our thing. That's like our family's thing, dude. Oh, really? Yeah, we just do it. The horse, it is so fancy. Cheese, but also the lunch meats and all that, like, you know, just have that.  Why is it, Doug? You'll know this answer better than these guys probably. I hope so. What's the big one that you can buy from Costco and you just kind of shave off on it? Like, what meat is that that's? Oh, like a prosciutto or this, the Iberico ham? It's like, yeah, it's huge. Like, you can buy it massive. Yeah, I think it's the Iberico or Iberico ham. So you can just leave it out and it stays good forever. Yeah, I mean, that ham is amazing, too. It's preserved. It's dried, yeah. That's the Spanish version of the ham. Yeah, they can't call it prosciutto because Italy's laws are hilarious. It has to be from a specific region to be called that. Well, that's like... Isn't that how their wines are, too? For the wines, you can't... France does that with wine, too. Isn't that funny? You know what's funny? They're... I think it's cool. Because there's such snobs about their food, it actually has protected them from the processed food, like, revolution. I do, too. I like that. It's legit protected them. I like that. That's why, by the way, the GMO thing, it's not because they think GMOs are unhealthy. It's because they're local farmers and whatever, they take so much pride and so much power that they said, no, you can't do that. No, we figured it out. We're gonna leave it this way. Yeah, and it's our business and this is our culture and this is how we do it or whatever. It's pretty funny stuff. Who's got the shout out today? Justin. Yeah, so, okay, whereas it's old time strongman, old time dot strongman. So on here, yeah, you just get, like, really cool information about all these guys from back in the day and gals, which is another cool thing. I never knew about all these, like, old time kind of strong women that were there. And, like, you know, it's, a lot of times it was like, they're presented in some of those, like, circus, like, acts and things because it was so rare, you know, to see, like, a woman that was, like, very built and, like, had defined muscles and it's just cool to see that even back then. Like, there was, like, some interest there with some of these badass women. Yeah, I like them because I think, first of all, I think that era is phenomenal. For excellence. It's just Norris in there? Yeah, why was he there? That's right. Okay, so yeah, they'll throw in some. So I love, I love that era because a lot of the wisdom that we know now. It was before all the studies and before supplements and before.  Women, it was laughed at. So I have a random fact for you guys, which I thought was really cool. So you two are so much more into this than I am. Like, I didn't know anybody from that era and, you know, just hanging around you guys. I've heard you drop names. And Hackensmith is one of the names that I've heard you guys talk about as, like, one of the, like, most epic, like, strong men back of, you know, in the, what is it called? The golden, this is not the golden, this is the bronzer, the bronzer, right? So from the bronzer, I just so happen to be watching a Netflix documentary on something totally different than this. It was like a trade show type of, it was something so different. And they just so, they brought up Hackensmith. He was the first person to ever wear a robe into the ring. He started that tradition for boxers and wrestlers and fighters that come out in a robe. Nobody had ever come out in a bathrobe before. He was the first guy to do that and set that trend going forward. Yeah, back in those days he came the thing. Back in those days, these strength athletes, a significant percentage of them also wrestled. And they would do an American style of submission wrestling called catch wrestling. Catch wrestling, by the way, if you do Jiu-Jitsu, look up cat, you probably already do because it's more popular now, but look up catch wrestling and their techniques. And you'll learn some stuff that you can use in Jiu-Jitsu that you maybe catch your, your Jiu-Jitsu practitioners off guard with. That's what, what his face was, why he was so dominant in MMA, was why can I not think of his name right now? Was he look like? Older guy. And he came back and he came back for to win the heavyweight title when he, and he's not a- Oh, Couture. Yeah, Randy Couture. Randy Couture. Randy Couture. Yeah, Randy Couture. Yeah, so, Carl Gotch, Hackensmith, they were all catch wrestlers. Abraham Lincoln did catch wrestlers, by the way. That's what I hear, dude. That's so awesome. Yeah, and they, they're masters of the, what they call the double wrist, double wrist lock, which is a, or figure four lock, which is also known as a Kimura lock. So for grapplers, check it out. All right, check this out. There's a company called Joy Mode that makes a product that helps improve sexual performance and satisfaction. In a nutshell, these are compounds that improve blood flow. Okay, by the way, this is also a great supplement take before your workout, if you want to get a better pump.  Anyway, great product. Go check them out. Go to usejoymode.com forward slash mind pump.  All right, back to the show. Our first caller is Erison from Wisconsin. Hey, Erison, how can we help you? Hey, so I just want to start off by sharing. I really appreciate not only the much needed, honest and nuanced information you guys provide, but also the personable way in which you present it. I've learned so much and gotten a lot of laughs, especially in the early episodes. I remember you, you've been to the studio before. I have, yep. I came to the live event in December. Yeah. All right. All right, good deal. Well, cool. How can we help you? So I tend to get distracted on details. So I'm going to start with the question and then I'll give the details after. I'm wondering how you would program training and nutrition throughout the year if you try to peak at the same time annually to kind of see the progress that you're making year over year. So I'm not a competitor. I never plan to become one. But I do like to have a plan for throughout the year so that on 4th of July, I can kind of look my best, bringing a better and better physique every year just like you would do for a show. So it's a way to see my progress year over year instead of just focusing on a small window of time or just focusing on the scale or smaller metrics. But I feel like I end up in the same spot every year. So I'm wondering if I just need to change it up. I usually build from September to about April, cut in May and June, and then just kind of maintain throughout the summer. Programming has been all my apps programs for about the last year and a half. I hit 10 K steps per day and I adding a three mile run on NFL Sundays, things to add them to SIP, on getting movement in before the game start and just maintaining some baseline cardio. So I'm wondering what you would recommend to do differently. Yes, this is actually a really good question. How long have you been exercising consistently, period? So I know you said maps for the past year and a half, but were you working out a lot before that too? Yeah, so I've always been generally active playing sports and just getting movement in, but in terms of hitting the gym like five days a week, every single week, it's been about three years. Okay, you're pretty fit and you've been doing this for a long time. So to see lots of progress year over year, I wanna make sure you have realistic expectations because most of the progress someone's gonna make when they start working out pretty consistently will happen in the first two or three years. After that, the progress is quite incremental. Now, strategy-wise, what you're doing with your diet, where you're saying you're trying to build, let me see, from September to April, and then you cut May and June and then you maintain, I like that. So I'm assuming you're going on a bulk or a small bulk during those build phases and then the cut is obviously when you cut your calories and then you bring them up a little bit to maintain for a couple of months, is that accurate? Yep, so I maintain about 2,400. Thanks to you guys, I've come up from about 1,500 to 2,400 for maintenance. So I tend to go up to about 2,600 to bulk and then I cut down to about 2,02100. Okay, cool. And then when you say peak and look, be your best, are you talking about athletic performance or I'm assuming you're talking about how you look, like the visual part? Yeah, the aesthetics. More aesthetics, yeah. Okay, so diet-wise, on point, I like that. And we can get into more details with that in here in just a second. When it comes to the training, it doesn't make that big of a difference except I would say the programming that you would want closer to the 4th of July, which is when you're trying to peak, I think should be more of a bodybuilding focused, maybe bring up weak body parts type of routine. So like maps aesthetic, maps split, map symmetry would even be good, leading up to that just so that, because what you, in order to peak, especially after a certain period of time, you've been training for a long time, initial stages, you just wanna develop your body overall. After a while, if you look at, because I think the athlete that you can look at for the most wisdom on this, and I don't think you should do everything that they do, but the athlete that is most comparable is the bodybuilder that competes, let's say one or two times a year. And what bodybuilders do is after a while, in order to improve their bodies, they stop trying to build everything all the time, because it's just that you're not gonna do that. After a few years of being consistent, you're not gonna keep building the whole body, but what they do, the smart ones, is they find areas of the body to focus on and bring up those weaker areas. And the way to do that is by taking volume away from other parts of your body. So the way to improve for the first three years, general strength, general muscle, general fitness, but then after that, it's really about finding those areas of your body you really wanna focus on, placing more emphasis on those and taking away from other areas to compensate type of deal. So the training leading up to that doesn't make a huge difference, but then when you get closer to that reveal, I like a program like maybe Maps Aesthetic with the focus sessions, for example, to really focus and hone in on some of those areas that maybe year after year you wanna kind of work on. And you could pick the same areas or focus on different areas each time. That's exactly how I do it. I would work backwards, right? So if the, let's say, fourth of July was the weekend I'm trying to peak for, I would work it backwards. So I'd run Maps Aesthetic leading up to that so it ended on that day, right? And then the program before that, I like something that is either strength-based or functional. So and then the rest of the year it would look something like this and you can pick and choose between all of our programs is I would run things like Maps Anabolic slash strong slash power lift with interrupting that with like a Maps performance. So I address mobility stuff like flip-flopping it. So like what a year would look like would be like Maps Anabolic, then Maps Performance, then say Maps Strong, then like a Maps Performance, then like a Maps Power Lift, then like a Maps Aesthetic, something like that. Where I'm getting, I'm trying to build strength and then throughout that whole year to Sal's point about addressing like how bodybuilders kind of address this is even when I'm going through Maps Performance, Maps Strong, these other programs that aren't necessarily for the peak or the show, I'm still trying to address my imbalances or my lagging body parts per se. So I'm gonna slightly customize Maps Strong, slightly customize Maps Anabolic or like for example, in Maps Anabolic, my trigger sessions are gonna be focused on my weak areas, right? So throughout the year, I'm going to be kind of addressing those weak areas consistently just by making sure I put a little more focus on that. But I would alternate programs from like a strength-based program with a more functional-based program leading all the way up until I hit Maps Aesthetic for the final 12 weeks going into my peak, something like that. And then within the program, as far as diet is concerned, I would be in a maintenance surplus for most of the time and then I would interrupt it with a one to two, maybe three week cut sometimes, then back into a bulk slash maintenance. The only time that I would run a longer cut would be for Maps Aesthetic heading into the what I'm trying to peak.  I wanna see what the difference is. It normally doesn't change much. Usually at the end of the bulk, it's about 26, 27% at like 115. And then during the cut, usually gets down to about 23, 24% at about 110. Okay, I would like to see you bulk a little bit more aggressively is what I'd like to see. Let's see if we can, and you can let the body fat climb up a little more but really push the calories and get as strong as possible. I would focus on a lot of strength in that period. And then as far as the cut is concerned, this is gonna be a two-year process. The first time around, I wouldn't try to be as aggressive as you maybe getting down to 23% but then the following year, you can go ahead and go for it. And that'll give you a little bit of space to gain some muscle because that's really what we're looking at here. What we're really looking at here, Erison, is there's two ways you can change your appearance come 4th of July. One, get leaner than you did the year before, which you could do but once you start to get to low 20s, high teens, it starts to get a bit gnarly. Or two, what I think, which would be a better approach is to put on a little bit muscle that sticks around when you get into the cut. So you might have to stretch this out for a couple of years to kind of make that happen. How tall are you? I'm about five-four. Okay. And how's your strength? How's like your squat and deadlift? I mean, give me an idea of where you're sitting. So I just finished power lifts last week. So my one rep max turned out to be 184 squat and dead and 115 for bench. Yeah, not bad at all. But yeah, I would be a more aggressive during the bulk for strength. I don't be crazy and sloppy with it, but maybe take your calories and your protein up a little bit higher and see if you could get those numbers to go up and really that's where you're gonna get. So when it comes to like bodybuilding, for example, the big mistake I think most bodybuilders make or competitors make is they think it's all about the pre-contest.  Most of the best competitors, the people who do the best are the ones that are really consistent in the off season. Where they build quality muscle and they're able to keep it when they go through that cut kind of phase. And again, I'm referring to bodybuilders that's similar to, that's the most similar to what you're looking to do.  And if you can progress each bulking season over the previous bulking season, then you're doing pretty damn well then you're trending upward. Okay, sounds good. Yeah, normally in the fall I've been running like max cardio or max performance because I have those runs in there as well. I mean, it's once a week, so it's not all that much. And then I've been doing kind of a strength-based program fall, I'm sorry, winter and early spring and then cutting. So I think I'll just switch it around and focus a little more on bulking, it sounds like. Yeah, and it sounds like you can push the calories a little more than you have in the past. I mean, which is great because it's not normally the advice that we're giving people. People tend to do the sloppy bulk or they over-consume. It seems like you're probably on the lighter side. I mean, if you're only fluctuating five to 10 pounds in the entire year, difference of off season and peaking, that's very minimal. So you could afford to probably, which maybe the most challenging part might be the psychological part, right? When you're going through the bulk and you know you're in a surplus, is you're probably gonna put on a little bit of body fat, gonna put on some weight on the scale is being okay with that and knowing that, hey, that's the goal right now. The goal right now is to build strength. I'm gonna increase a little bit of size, not a big deal. So then you can then reveal it in your cut. But if you never really push that or get that, get to build that muscle up, then you just keep coming back to a cut. And by the way, this happens to a lot of competitors. Like one of the things I share with the guys all the time, I would recognize really quick with my peers is they get to a place with their body and then they go through this bulk and then cut season just to reveal the same physique. And a lot of that is because they would go too aggressively with the bulk, they're not focusing on their programming, wasn't dialed in. So a lot of this is like you making sure that in the off season, you do a really good job of building as much muscle as you possibly can. When it comes down to the maps aesthetic to the cut part, you're just revealing the hard work you did in the off season. There's nothing really you're doing at that point in a calorie deficit. You're really just revealing what you did in the off season. And if you don't allow yourself to push your weight up a little bit more and put on muscle, you're gonna be revealing the same physique every year. It seems like based off of what you guys are recommending that there's kind of a basis of a formula leading up to the peaking part, but there's a lot of flexibility for you sort of like in the preceding months to experiment with a lot of different programs that are gonna address like a lot of different moves you probably haven't done, a lot of different muscles that we're kind of trying to highlight. So I think that you could really like experiment and see whatever sort of option that's available makes sense for you kind of in maybe the winter months and focus on strength and obviously feed yourself to that point where we're trying to build muscle, but then the reveal itself is probably where you're gonna wanna stick something kind of like a formula. Yeah, and I'll look, I'm gonna add a few things here. One is that your approach, your year long approach is excellent because what you're doing, whether you realize it or not is you're creating kind of this lifelong balanced strength training routine by switching to different programs, by slightly changing your goal from mobility to strength to getting leaner to stamina. This is great because this type of training is gonna serve you very well for the rest of your life. It's gonna avoid a lot of the pitfalls a lot of people fall into like overuse injuries or imbalances. It's going to allow you to continue to slowly progress because you're gonna be bringing up weak areas or areas of your body or performance that maybe other people might not focus on because they're so single-minded. So that's excellent. The second thing I'd like to add is to be patient and enjoy the process because if you're, and you're young so you can still do this, but what you don't wanna do is keep pushing the visual appearance every single year because that's gonna make, it's gonna take away the real value of what you're doing which is the entire process of the whole year of going through these different phases and I'm sure you're enjoying training different ways and focusing on different things whether it be strength or mobility or stamina. So I would focus more on that. And also performance improvements although those are not infinite either are better metrics than visual ones anyway.  So I like performance for that standpoint. And the last thing I'll add is this. This is very true. This is true for both men and women but especially for women. When women have a good amount of muscle on their body they look better at higher body fat percentages than women with less muscle.   We don't want to go crazy but get stronger, build that muscle. That's where you're going to see the progress. Okay, that made sense. Yeah, it has been helpful. Like power lift was just a really great mental shift in terms of I've never really tried to do one rep max before. So that was just kind of fun. And performance, I mean, I played volleyball once a week and admittedly it's beach volleyball in a men's net. So I'm useless at hitting but on the rare occasion that I get to try it was really fun to improve my vertical and that kind of thing just as a side effect. Awesome. Do you have maps and a bulk advance by the way? Yes, I do. Okay, do you have all of our programs? Pretty much. Wow. Okay. Well, there you go. We're gonna get you a new one here. Yeah, well, we got something coming out. If you can remember when we come out we'll give it to you. I want to send you something so. Yeah. Okay. I can't say what it is though, it's a surprise but you'll like it. There you go. Thanks, Harrison. Thank you. You got it. That's a good approach. That's a great approach. I mean, she's shifting through different modalities and goals and I think that's a great longterm approach to fitness. Cause a lot of people would just be so hyper focused on one thing that everything they do is towards that and they end up getting hurt or they end up burning their bodies out. But what she's doing, she's cycling through all the different programs and changing nutrition by seasons, that's a great way to keep yourself healthy. Yeah. I was thinking too, like symmetry is a great program for kind of like going back in sort of your North Star. Like what's, how's my body been benefiting from this? Maybe where there are some deficits that I can focus in on and kind of iron those out along this journey because she's gonna be applying new programming like each year, it sounds like at least one to try it out and see how our body responds. And I would think that's always a good follow up right after that to kind of see where you're at. Yeah, after listening to her and giving all that advice that we gave, I think a simpler way to kind of sum it all up to me after hearing everything is she does a great job already cycling through programs, cycling through diet. She keeps herself in a very manageable place. I think actually she just hasn't allowed herself to put more weight on. Yeah. That's why I said the bolt. Yeah, just doing that alone, I think is going to give her this, you know, a better reveal the next year of going through this. I think everything else she's doing is pretty spot on. I just know sometimes I have clients that struggle with the, you know, they got themselves into a good, and by the way too, there's nothing wrong with just staying there. But if you ask me a question, like, hey, I'm trying to improve. To progress. Yeah, progress and move my physique and then you're gonna get advice that way. I think that she's got a very healthy relationship with exercise. She looks really good, like, but I mean, you asked me a question like that. I'm gonna go, okay, well here's how we go about it. Two biggest mistakes with bulking is the person who's insecure about being too skinny. They over bulk and the person who's insecure about being too fat, they under bulk. There is a nice sweet spot with a bulk and if you're going below or above it, you're just not going to reap all those benefits and it sounds like she was just going to agree. Our next caller is Lucy from Virginia. Hi Lucy, how can we help you? Wow, hi guys. Thank you so, this is crazy. Thank you so much for having me on today. For the first time in my 46 years, I have been working on getting stronger rather than skinnier. All thanks to you. Your content is accessible, logical and incredibly helpful. I know you probably feel like you repeat yourselves constantly, but please keep doing it because us dummies over here really need to hear it a few times before we catch on. So thank you. Appreciate it, awesome. My question, I haven't been lifting long. I found you guys in September of 2022. I started with anabolic performance and now I'm in phase two of symmetry. I have both a ballet, I was a professional ballet dancer and now I'm a yoga teacher and practitioner. So I'm very interested in getting the right technique in my lifts before I overload myself too much. So on that note, I can't seem to get below 90 degrees if that in my squat, in my barbell squat. I'm very mobile in all three zones. I did the prime tests past all of those, but I still feel like I'm stuck either in my hips or my ankles and my back seems to round a bit. When we teach yoga and when I was a ballet dancer, we often talk about people, different anatomies having different sort of centers of gravity. And so what that means to me is longer femurs, easier to do certain things, but harder to do other things and vice versa. So I just didn't know if without excusing myself, I don't want any excuses, but I didn't know if in certain anatomies just couldn't go ass to grass. Cause I really, I'm coveting that for some reason. I just know I should be able to do it and I feel like I can't. I also should note I've had both of my hips replaced, total hip replacements. And so I don't know if that's doing it. I feel like I've restored most of my mobility since then, but I've just never done this kind of fitness before. So I don't know if that's holding me up. Yeah. Wow. How low can you go?  I did. In fact, I heard you guys the other day on your podcast talking about that. So I tried it and it still felt, I don't think it's my ankles, in other words. So if I don't load myself, if I just go down, I can go all the way down, but I can't come back up and I don't think I could have any weight on me to go all the way down. So that's kind of where I'm wondering what the next steps would be if there's something. I know there's something I'm missing actually. This is a great question. So I've trained a few dancers who were very, very high level and when I remember when I first trained them, it posed a completely different challenge for me as a trainer because until then, usually what we encounter as trainers are people who just don't have the flexibility to do certain exercises. Sounds like strength more than that. Yeah, and now when I would train, now when I train these dancers, they had all the flexibility in the world but they lacked the strength to provide the stability. Remember mobility is range of motion plus strength and stability, right? It's not just range of motion and it's not just strength. You got to have both. But you did throw in a wrench here, which is the hip replacements, okay? So that's a bit of, that's a rent. So let me address the question as if you didn't have hip replacement and then just for people listening and then for you, I'll have something a little different. So if there was no hip replacement, I would say this is probably entirely a strength issue, being a professional, doing ballet professionally. My cousin does it. I'm very familiar with the world of ballet. Like flexibility is, I mean, it's incredible at that level and on top of it yoga. So you've probably got great flexibility. I would say it's a strength issue, 100%. I would work on strength. I would use no weight. I would try to create tension in those lower positions and then support yourself coming all the way up. So what I would do is I would go down as low as you could with no weight or as low as you felt control over with no weight, okay? So in other words, if going all the way down means you can't come back up without helping yourself, then I wouldn't do that. I would go just to the point where you feel it's a challenge, create some tension and then come up. Now you have hip replacement, both sides. So this is a wrench because that can limit your range of motion. When they do a replacement on hips in particular, they don't, they're not like replacing, it's not like creating like the same thing you had before. There are limitations to replacements that you wouldn't necessarily find with a natural hip, for example. So I don't think you should test your depth or range of motion aggressively at all. I would play with it, but I'd be very, very careful. And then to add another thing, when somebody is very flexible, but they're working on strength, usually what I do is I limit the range of motion anyway. So if I took somebody who had just hyper flexibility, I would not have them trained to their end ranges of motion because their lack of stability was so bad or the strength was so not, it didn't match the flexibility to the point where if we went to end ranges of motion, I am dramatically increasing risk of injury. So what I would do with those people is I would cut their range of motion just short and try and create connection and strength within those. So to sum it up, you're at no disadvantage. I don't think you're, I think you're fine going at 90 degrees. I think split stance exercises would be great for you. I think hip thrusting would be amazing for you. I think those would be really good for you. And when you squat, there's nothing wrong with going down to 90 degrees and coming up. And then like I said, you can play with ranges of motion, but I would do so with very little to no weight and go just outside of where you think you have control and nothing deeper than that. And once you master that, then you can try it again. But listen to your body too. If it feels like your hips are locking or like you have to do weird things to get deeper, then that's the joint. That's not necessarily strength or muscle. Yeah. I mean, it's strength, stability, like all that, especially with the hips now trying to relearn a lot of like be able to respond appropriately, laterally and with rotation.  So if I get the suspension trainer involved where I can actually like kind of like very, very incrementally like decrease in terms of my depth and then try as much as I can to produce that kind of tension throughout your body and squeeze and drive your way up and just keep continuously kind of like working on that. And also like lateral movements, like caustic squats and, you know, lateral lunges and also doing things a bit with rotation. So step up with the rotation just kind of working through that entire process of like multi-planar type of work to re-educate those hips on how to respond appropriately. So that way you feel like you can get them to respond and brace and you can feel some tension actually like being produced again. And then box squats, you know, at a height where you feel comfortable the most to begin with.  And that's like your entire focus is like, you know, generating force and being able to get up out of the hole. Did I hear you say that you're on phase two of map symmetry right now? Yeah, so I know all of these things you're saying, I'm so excited to recognize all of these terms. Yeah, this is- But yeah, I haven't yet done the five by five, I guess whatever's at the end. So that's kind of why I wanted to find all of them. It'll be exciting to see because I think that's the right program for you. So you chose the right program for what we're talking about. So hopefully you're gonna get a lot of these benefits. Just to circle back, I wanna do two things that Justin said that I was gonna go this direction anyways, which is I love the suspension trainer and basically doing a pistol squat, you know, holding onto the suspension trainer.  And then just slowly challenging it a little bit deeper with one leg and body weight at a time with the support. I think it would be a great way to build strength there. The other way with the box squats.  We work there for a couple of weeks then I pull one foam pad out. So now they're getting another inch by inch. Yeah, you know, inch by inch. So now they're getting another two to four inches deeper then I pull the next foam pad out. And so we just slowly work our way backwards like that. The combination of that with the, you know, suspension trainer pistol squats with support I think are great ways. But we have a lot of unilateral work that's in symmetry. So it'd be interesting to see just from what we've programmed in there what kind of benefits you see also. When you do a split stance, you can go all the way down, right? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. So okay, so you know, this wouldn't be an issue if you did this. If you, when you did your barbell squats you stopped at 90 degrees and you loaded it and then your full range of motion comes with your split stance exercises. There's no problem with that. I like loading hip thrusts a lot for someone like you. A hip thrust is a shorter range of motion, really strengthens the glutes, really strengthens that support for the hips. And there's nothing wrong with loading a squat to just 90 degrees with these under the circumstances that you're kind of communicating. Because the issue is really the wrench is the hip replacement. If there was no hip replacement, this would be a little bit more straightforward. But when they replace a joint, it's not designed to be like, well they don't design it that way. There's a point that the joint isn't gonna move any further. In fact, they'll tell you this when you get the replacement. They'll say, you can't rotate more than this, you can't. So what you don't wanna do is push past that and think, oh, I gotta go deeper because you could cause yourself some real problems. But there's like, you have no issues with flexibility, obviously. So this is all strength. And there's nothing wrong with building strength going down to 90 degrees and then working on range of motion with other exercises that you feel more comfortable with. It's such a good point. If you're getting full range of motion in lunges and split stand stuff, you're addressing the thing that we would be concerned about. If everything was shortened and you weren't being able to go down full range in other movements, then there'd be an issue there that we'd be concerned about. But you're still addressing full range of motion with other movements.  Oh, yeah, okay.  But then if, you know, if we're talking about aesthetics now and building the butt more, then I would push you in the direction of what Sal's saying, which is we would focus on loading the hip thrust and that's where you're gonna get that glute dominant work. How do you feel with a really, what's your stance when you squat, by the way? Well, yeah. So initially I was very parallel because that's what we do in yoga, right? It's chair pose. So then, but then I watched videos and now I'm wider and I have my toes pointed out more. And that feels better. I can go low. Yeah. I want you to go by feel because you're in your, you're not like the average person, Lucy. A lot of people call us and they've not done all the work and exercise and movement stuff like you have. And so I don't necessarily get, I always tell people to listen to their body, but I want you to really trust your body because you're in your body. Like you've been in your body for a long time through your training. So if you watch a video or you hear us say something and it doesn't feel right to you, I want you to listen to that like you did with the parallel squat. Like that didn't feel right to you. You modified your form and technique and it felt better. So really listen to your body. But yeah, it's, there's nothing wrong with just doing 90 degree squats and getting stronger there. There's nothing wrong with that at all. As long as you do all the other stuff, you're totally fine. Waiting in the wings after symmetry, I have anabolic advanced and power lift. Do you guys have a recommendation for what order or should I like return to performance in between those two or? No, not after symmetry. After symmetry, I think you're good. I would go anabolic advanced. But then after that, I would go performance. I like to have, especially my clients that it's like overall health, longevity, strength, we're not like very specific. I love to rotate a strength based program with a more functional based program. And so I would put, you know, performance and symmetry as our more, you know, functional based programs. Like I would put that in that category. So every other program, I would want to be one of those to kind of interrupt the strength of this. Now, I know you didn't bring up diet, but I want to ask you because the ballet world has got some of the biggest challenges when it comes to relationships with food. It's very, very, I mean, it's just, it's one of those spaces that it's just quite common. How are you with nutrition and eating in a way to fuel your body for strengthings? Is that a challenge or are you pretty, you got a good grasp of it? It's a challenge. I, yeah, I mean, I've really just had a tough time with food most of my, from about, oh, I guess I was anorexic when I was 13 through dancing. That's actually why I stopped professional dancing. And probably very likely why I have hip replacements because I am very, I just, I went right in from ballet to college swimming to marathon running to yoga. And it's, I wish I could say it's yin yoga, but it's not. So I do, but after, I promise, after listening to you guys, I'm tracking my protein, I get body weight and protein. So I'm really, I'm much more cognizant at least of what I'm putting in my body. Do you feel uncomfortable when you eat in a way to fuel strength? Like, do you feel like, like I'm eating? Oh man, I'm eating too much. This doesn't feel right. No. Okay, good. And what I've done, so I kind of hit a tipping point when, and it was very serendipitous the way I found you guys because I was, I had just, my body had just sort of said we're done. And I was walking because I couldn't run because of my hip replacements. I was walking upwards of probably 35,000 steps a day. So I've cut way back on that and increased my food and have, so I basically kind of done a reverse diet but by cutting way back on my activity versus my food, although I have increased my protein as well. And I feel great. I mean, I'm sleeping better. My husband likes me better. I'm just a, generally, I think I'm a better mother. So I'm really focused, and I have a teenage daughter, so I'm very aware that she's watching me. So I'm really trying to, I'm really trying for me and for her and for everyone to be better, just be better. Yeah, try doing a little bit of an aggressive bulk. That would help you with the strength so much. I think it would blow your mind.  Okay, so I would, if you tested it, I would let your body fat get up to the mid twenties and I think you'll see your best strength gains and health gains in that percentage, but I would do a nice aggressive bulk. Go ahead and push the calories a little bit.   I mean, that'll make the biggest difference right there. Lucy, I'm gonna have Doug put you in our private forum just so we can be there for support and you can reach out to us as you go through this journey. And then I'd also like to see the squat. We did a lot of speculating and, you know, sometimes when I see somebody move, there's something that jumps out at me that it could be a small tweak or I could help out. And so I would love that too, it was just for you to get on there and show me a body weight squat so I could kind of see your movement and see if we can continue to add value to what's going on with you. Okay, thank you guys so much. All right, thanks for calling in. Thank you, namaste. Thank you very much.  I'm so glad you went there. Yeah, because I, okay, so I know you, I know you went the doctor safer out with the hip thing, but I think you hit it more on the head with the nutrition and strength. I think that she just is not very strong in that position and she hasn't fed her body ever. So she's been heavily focused on flexibility her whole life.  She knows she has the flexibility because she can probably put her head, legs over her head, she's so flexible. But when she gets down, she can get down in that position, she can't get out. So what tells me it's not the hip replacement is her ability to get down comfortably. I like that you said show us the squat so we can kind of see. Cause then you'll tell, you'll be able to notice the, oh, that's the hip joint. Yeah. Oh yeah, you'll tell if that's limit and she didn't get, or she didn't really communicate anything to me that made me go like, oh, something's going on in our hip area that's limiting her from going down there. She can go all the way down, has a hard time getting out. That tells me it's a strength issue. It's damn near impossible to feel strong and adequate when you're underfed. Right. So that's a great insight there in terms of like, being in that state for a long time. Like, yeah, that's gonna be real challenging to build. If you're a professional ballet dancer and you don't have an eating disorder, it's rare. That's how common it is in that space. And they start young. They start as, you know, real young. I've heard that about some gymnastic events as well. Yeah. With young girls. And what happens is you're so underfed that you actually give yourself osteoporosis or joint degeneration because you can't fuel your body.  But yeah, we'll need to see, because again, to be fair, like I have trained a few osteopaths and they've talked to me about joint replacements and they're like, look, these things are not made to have like the range of motion that, and so you always wanted to be careful. But yeah, I think if she fed herself, she'd be like, holy, I mean, she's already doing more of it now and she's noticing all these benefits. It's probably not enough though. I bet you if she pushed it a little more. Oh yeah, no, you hit it on the head.  That's why I said, that's exactly what I said. Put some body fat on, 10 pounds, which probably sounds like so much. That'll be the healthiest thing, absolutely. And I actually think when she does that, I think you'll see the strength go up in those areas. And then I think coming out of the hole from the squat. Look, to that point, I've worked with people like this and they reach a point where they're like, okay, I'm comfortable gaining weight so long as it's just muscle. And I remember working with, this is early in my career, I worked with functional medicine practitioners, they're like, no, they need to gain body fat. Like they can gain muscle, that's fine. There's a healing effect there. They gotta put body fat on. So I had clients where literally the target was to get up to this body fat. And then when we did, it was like magic, hormones balanced and everything worked out. Especially as a woman. Especially as a woman. Especially as a woman. So I really think that's, we're heading in the right direction with that conversation. Again, like you said, I'd like to see this squat. That's the reason why I asked for it. Because I have a sneaky suspicion that it's less to do with the hips, even though that's the right way to be safe to communicate to her. But I have a feeling it's just, it's really a strength thing. And even when she said, I mean, since the show, she's moving in the right direction. She cut back activity, she probably cut it in half, which she needed to do for sure. But then how much more calories are we really eating? You know what I'm saying? Then we really still need to feed the body more. So we'll see. Our next caller is Jackson from Florida. What's up, Jackson? How can we help you? Hey guys, how are you? Thanks for taking the call. I'm actually calling from inside of cruise ship. So I bought the internet package just for this. Oh, cool, right on. Hey, so my question is kind of based off of the conversation I had with Ben Greenfield, the peptides. And I feel like I'm pretty fitness literate. I've been doing fitness since I was like 15, 32 now. But I'm starting to get injuries, some knee injuries, lower back injuries. And I know, I'll say zero about peptides. So that conversation really intrigued me, but I don't know where to start with those, but it seems like something that could really help me. Peptides are a remarkable space. Now they're not gonna replace lifestyle, so diet, exercise.  Those are bigger, bigger rocks. So let's say you had low testosterone and you had to use exogenous testosterone to bring it up, that would be a bigger game changer. But peptides are pretty wild. It's an interesting space. They've been around for actually a long time, which I was informed of not that long ago when I first started kind of diving in. Some of them can raise growth hormone levels to more youthful levels and then you'll reap the benefits of that. Some of them accelerate healing. BPC-157 is anecdotally like people are just like, this stuff is remarkable. I remember Adam, when he tore his Achilles, used it and he couldn't believe how quickly he recovered whenever he used it. So it's a remarkable space, but this is out of our wheelhouse. And this is why we partnered with the people at mphormones.com. So part of your question is like, what brands and stuff like that? So it's not so much about brands. It's about, am I getting this through a legitimate pharmacy or am I getting quote unquote research chemicals in which case I could be getting anything? That's really the big divide. If you wanna make sure you're not getting some weird stuff or things that can maybe cause bad reactions or even just not getting monitored by a doctor, then you wanna go through a company that uses doctors and works with an actual pharmacy because that pharmacy has to follow the same regulations for when they create pharmaceuticals. So I'll just- Not only that, but they're also, when they do your, because before you're gonna wanna get your blood work done, even though you don't have to to get peptides, you can definitely skip that part. I recommend getting your blood work so that they can communicate that to you. I mean, every time I tend to do this, I feel like I learned something new about my behaviors habits and then go back and either make adjustments nutritionally or they add something into my regimen. So I think complimenting not only the peptide stack that you consider doing, but also getting your blood work done and you having these doctors take a look at that so that you know that, oh, okay, I've now introduced this into my life and now I'm seeing these other markers improve. I think there's tremendous value in that. And that's, I mean, that's really their job is to be able to do that panel. You do it like the way it works is you'll sign up with them, you'll fill out all the questionnaire.  And they can talk to you about, potentially upping your growth hormone. They can talk to you about the BBC 157 like Sal mentioned, there's stuff for leaning out, there's stuff for cognitive performance, all kinds of stuff. There's lots of cool compounds out there now in that direction. And definitely the actionable steps is what Adam's talking about in terms of like getting to that point. Were you able to listen to our episode with Dr. Seed or Jake Campbell? Cause we also like brought people on the show to try and explain a lot of the benefits in more detail with that, with the peptides. So if you haven't make sure and check out those episodes. Yeah, no, the only one I've heard from from you guys is the one with Ben Greenfield, which you kind of, you touched it and then went into the fatherhood stuff. And so I was just hoping, but you, MP hormones, that's good information. That's kind of what we're looking for. Where do you, where do you start? Yeah, go to mphormones.com. And if you want to listen to episodes that are peptide focused, Dr. Seeds and Jake Campbell, two episodes we did recently. Definitely listen to those. We go real. That's all the whole thing about peptide. So you get to hear all the everything on that. So that, that would be the recommendation. Go to mphormones.com, fill out the questionnaire in there, get yourself set up there. Go listen to those two episodes. You'll feel really informed on what you should hear. He must be in the Mermuda Triangle right now, Dr. Seeds. Must be. Yeah. Well, sending that link looks like he's disconnected. So thanks, Jackson. Yeah, have fun on your vacation. Yeah. I'm a little jealous. Yeah, have a good cruise. Yeah, I'm a little jealous of that. You know, hey, of all the, so here's the other thing too. There seems to be an individual variance with some of these peptides where some people get, you know, notice them and other people don't notice them so much and they got to try different ones. I'll say for me, the biggest ones were Ibutamorin literally was a crazy mass builder, like strength and pumps and like it feels wild.  MOTC, I really, really liked that one a lot. Other people don't notice it. I noticed that one big time. I like the C-Max for cognitive performance. I noticed that one a lot. Those are the, those are the three so far that I've tried where I'm like, these are, these are big time and C-Max. For you? Love it, yeah. I haven't done MOTC yet. I do like the C-Max. I mean, I'm like, I just took something again this morning. So of all the cognitive ones I've messed around with, it's probably the one that I feel, the nasal spray one. So that, Ibutamorin, I'm with you, man. If I wanted to get on a bulk right now, I would run Ibutamorin. I sleep like a baby on it and my appetite goes through the roof on it. So I love, I love that for those. Those are the main, oh, I got to get on BPC. That's my next one. So I just ordered that. So I just ordered that from Jesse. I called them up and because of the issues that I've been having with my quad. So I'm actually really excited to try that and see if that makes it. So I'm going to do BPC 157 orally. So if you take it orally. For gut healing. It heals the gut. That's exactly what I was thinking. No, so that's, that's what I'm, so you can inject it or oral. I'm doing the oral. Well, that one is the one that is most, is the most popular because it's had the most. Tons of anecdotes on that in animal studies, mainly but anecdotes pretty well. So Mott C, you like it now, huh, Justin? You can do it. I do feel the effects. I feel a bit of an energy charge.  Thanks, man. I've been, you know, having adjusted it anyway. So it's, it does make you leaner after a while. I swear to God. No, this one was looked jacked for a while. He's been undercover like, like the other day we got, I don't talk about it.  I don't even know. Yeah. I don't even know. All right, Justin. A high to my high. Look, if you like Mind Pump, head over to mindpumpfree.com and check out some of our guides. We have fitness guides that are free that can help you with almost any health or fitness goal. Also, come find us on Instagram. Justin is at Mind Pump, Justin. I'm at Mind Pump to Stefano. And Adam is at Mind Pump, Adam. Today we're gonna teach you everything you need to know to build a strong, well-developed chest. When I think of weak points and areas that I struggled with developing for a really long time, chest was up there with the weak point. Yeah, it was for me. It was for me for sure. I got more caught up in the weight I could lift versus how I was developing my body. I think it's one of the most challenging muscles to develop for most people because the form and technique.