Hold on there. We go Sweet Alice gifted five gaming beaver Memberships, oh, thank you. I forget you can do that in this sweet. So yeah This came out and I was like, okay, cuz the first trailer came out and I wasn't really too fast then this one came out and went Okay, okay, and it's got enough things going on to it where I'm like Now I'm just kind of curious Basically What what what on earth what kind of things could we expect from this movie? Beaver I love futuristic dinosaur movie. I know Andres Costello became a member So Yeah, the movie sort of always the the trailer opens up. I haven't actually done this in order because I'm amazing like this Where we go because I kind of want to just discuss the dinosaur designs because this is like the big body This is the the t-rex. I'm assuming or whatever. I feel like because there's parts in this trailer that it says Mankind discovered earth 65 million years ago. It's like hold up so What do you mean mankind discovered us 65 million years ago because there's spaceships supposed to crash on earth Are you trying to tell me that? Man isn't from earth I Get the feeling that's what they're going for it's not a time travel. I feel like they're trying to say that or maybe we did I Don't know. There's loads of things we can discuss and get into and I'm looking forward to it because it's it's gonna go crazy Spaceship yeah, okay, so let me show you spaceship spaceship. Where's spaceship? Is this spaceship? No, that's not spaceship spaceship is Where is spaceship you got not that oh hold on not that yeah, let's see if I can find it with spaceship spaceship Not spaceship not spaceship not spaceship. I got loads of the same There's spaceship although you can't really see spaceship. Hold on. Let's move spaceship.  Whoops and a click copy here we go. So this is spaceship from the movie Yeah, there you go. So it looks like it has a bit of a satellite to it and it breaks up into multiple parts By the looks of it Your lap is contagious keep being you and thank you for all the content. No, thank you That's very kind of you know only if you like gifted memberships to people But you've also Like super child is really nice. Thank you So yeah, I'm assuming the movie will open up with the spaceship, you know exploding And crashing on to earth. I think we've even got if I just get rid of this I should have it not this no not that Yeah, this is it. So this is the space Spaceship spaceship that one. That's the spaceship there and It seems like there's only two survivors and one of them is Adam driver So Star Wars and dinosaurs is really dipping his feet into the whole I don't know sci-fi genre. I mean spaceships, right? We can call it sci-fi at this point even though it has dinosaurs Space I see you and I hear you Not gonna lie. I hate all of the designs and find all of them boring bland and uninspired We'll get into that. Don't worry. We'll get into it because my God is a lot to say 29 months. Hi beaver. Hello. That's a long time and toast to dogs Cheers bruv right so dinosaurs. Yes, so I'm kind of just gonna go through these images and just discuss them Because the trailer just kind of like throws things at you So yeah, this is a scene. I mean should we make chat small actually just so you're not like Sort of kind of going crazy with the images But you still get your love you still there, but we can actually see images now It's a shame that most things they put to the left and that's where I am as well So I don't know what these things are because You're on you're on a coast right and they've shown that there are like normal-looking dinosaurs Oh, we go load the puppet the Rex walks on all fours at the 45 second mark. Yes Yes, you noticed it And what's this murder most foul? Hi beaver been trying to catch you live to send my member chat And my progress got wiped so I'm back to being on one month. What how you've you've got like That's not the first toast badge though. Have a great day. Oh, well. Thank you Anyway, F1 2022. Hey beaver. You made my childhood. Thank you. Oh, thank you and they gave a wrap to 17 month Hey, amazing live streams recently, but I'm curious. Why do you remove the Pokemon go live streams? I see them amazing and I would love to be watching. Yeah, I accidentally deleted one of them That's they still exist for members. I apologize. I accidentally deleted one. That was not deliberate I was I was because I've got a setup when I click record. Oh, sorry stream it automatically streams And I didn't realize it was doing that and I was getting really annoying I was to happen to delete them because they kept on making them and then I accidentally clicked because they kept on doing the same thumbnail on the live stream one Beaver making a video accidentally deleted this dream. Yeah, I did yeah, that's what we're dealing with here guys So, oh god. No It's all over the place it's a cry for help honestly, okay, so Plot let's discuss plot so it looks like crushes the planet earth and then he needs to get to a beacon. I don't know to Escape this planet whatever but there's two characters and because it's you see in text. It says oh this is Like was it 65 million years ago or like mankind just discovered earth 65 million years ago And this movie is called 65 and they crashed to a planet earth or a planet. That's Like got dinosaurs kind of makes you believe that Well, they went back in time because 65 million years ago was a late quotation period and there's T-Rexes So are we saying that they either time traveled and crashed on it to earth? Or are we saying that humanity actually came from a different planet and Colonized earth accidentally via this way and if we're saying that that's the case then I'm a bit confused Well, I'd be confused either way But I feel like these sci-fi movies are going more and more out there The more that like what was that moon crash or moon landing or whatever that was Bonkers, I couldn't believe when I was watching that movie where they were going with it It was like it went completely conspiracy theory and legit It was like no no this this is real the moon is hollow. It's real believe it So, I don't know maybe they're like no, this is where humanity came from 100% it's flat also But yeah, so also the connotation is if they did travel back in time and this is the almost like the the genesis of humanity, this is Adam and Eve Like the female character in this is really young too So that raises more questions Adam driver, excuse me Where is she I've only got one of them. Yeah, there you go. I and this is this is the thing This is the Jurassic World Syndrome, but it only really became a problem when Jurassic World happened with the dinosaur designs because I Mean do we even need to do we even need to go into what this is? I I don't know what this is It doesn't look like any dinosaur that I've seen What is that face What is this with this this is just a dominance. Oh, but no want to go red. Give me me red. Thank you Yeah, this is just a dominance like this whole skull shape Like where it's it's been shrink-wrapped and like even the eye sockets are like sucked in and You've got like teeth sticking out and you know when it would you know if it closed its mouth like that It would it would be like this You know, it would be in Dominus Rex levels of I don't know Like that's what it would look like and it's just in Dominus Rex But in Dominus Rex wasn't the first one to Really spearhead the design. It was actually the v-rex in King Kong Peter Jackson's King Kong as a way everyone calls it Um that really started the train on those sorts of designs. I don't know why I mean it looks it looks vicious It looks mean, but if you're saying that, you know, we are going back in time 65 million years ago Why do we have like dinosaurs that look like they're from Jurassic Park? Like what is this limb? Get a creature. I mean really all it's missing is this right and then you've got dimension on That's what this is. There you go. There's dimension I mean it could be right I mean his legs are a little bit long. It's a bit weird, but it's just got this I don't know new age. I guess new age this modern cg dinosaur look to it now Most dinosaur or monster movies have this like shrink wrapped veiny Stretch skin teeth poking out of every orifice Kind of looked it's a it's a bit of a shame that we have a first dinosaur movie that isn't a Jurassic dinosaur movie in a long time And they it's basically just Jurassic designs or Jurassic world designs Uh poodle diplodocus became a member Uh poodle diplodocus maybe but you've been a major part of my childhood ever since the first Jurassic world The game video and I hope you continue to make everyone around you smile. Oh, thank you. It's so awesome. Oh, I try Uh, but yeah, the main reason why we're doing this more over As a live stream is because I want to get your guys's opinions on this because I can make a video I can rant and rave, but it's always nice to have something to bounce back off um So yeah, that's why we're doing it this way. I'll delete that little thing now So what else we've got? Yeah, like like I said, you've got these like pteranodon designs And I think I've even got a better image of these trandons. Yeah, here we go um So if we we could probably just move this around a little bit Uh, so yeah, you've got that this one here So I thought they were some gopteris at first because I saw this bit and I thought oh, yeah, that looks some gopteris but I mean It just kind of looks like a trandon, but it does get grabbed by a bigger trandon Hence the reason you've got these claws grabbing onto this one But it just shows that you know these designs these trandon designs look fine right They don't look like the demorphidon from drasic world Um all the trandon they've got the crests. They've got the wings. They're kind of untouched It's like if they went paleologically accurate for something they did the trandon's fine But when it comes to the big body No, that's not the big body. Where's the big body? That's not the big body Big body. Yeah this thing What is this? I mean, we've got like a small little dinosaur this thing And I'm assuming it's a velociraptor because if we look closely at it you can see There's a sickle claw on it so It's uh, it's a velociraptor of some sort but Again, it's it's completely like I don't know.  I haven't graduated or anything, but you know, I've been in this sphere for long enough um To just question things. I think I you know anybody who's a fan of dinosaurs can Uh, you know that you should be allowed to question things. Why why not? There we go. Yeah Yeah, that'll do. Okay, good. Sorry. Just talking sorting out the music. I realized it died there for a second um And what what do people think of this? What what do you think of this? It looks like a raptor, right? So Sort of look like a weird dromia saw slash horse skull. Yeah, you're right. The long snout I mean, it's got to be a raptor, right? It's like a trodon or uh, I don't know It's it's may even be a velociraptor because We've never had like an accurately sized velociraptor Um, and maybe this will be the it could be it could be a baby. Yeah, it could be but I feel like this is a Enduraptor It's the baby the one that it killed or something deleted scene never before seen Where did it crash up? So I was very interested with this because I thought that actually What then we're going to do is we're going to go down this rewriting history Okay, we're going to okay You're going to say humanity came from this time and it just so happened at 64 million years ago or 65 whatever, um Humanity or these dinosaurs died out, right massive cataclysmic event So if we're going this far to rewrite history Are these the two that crashed earth make the crater? Right, they make the crater because that's how the dinosaurs were supposedly killed, right and then They just killed the dinosaurs like the crater was a spaceship. They killed the dinosaurs We as a human species do not know About our beginnings because We were I don't know I feel like if it is just these two characters and this is like basically the adam and eve of the world Over time We're not going to be able to have the technology We're not going to be able to make the technology anymore because he doesn't have the resources So a bit like I don't know weird weird reference to make if you know 40k at all Warhammer 40k was a set set 40 000 years in the future humanity went through a period of expansion and space travel and they were super super futuristic but The ai eventually turned on them and then they weren't able to make Machines anymore because they didn't learn it It was all you know Autonomized via machines and maybe this is how it happens like he's got all of this technology to start with and then over time You just forget it and then we become stupid monkey men and slowly evolve again, you know relearn our things I don't know. It's it's a possibility of a way the movie could go down It would be a very weird one if it did Uh, but yeah, anyway, that's uh, that's the I don't know some sort of raptor, but It's this thing. I think there's two shots of this. So this is so So strange to me this this creature Um, because this is the main antagonist of the movie, right? So we'll move it out here um I I don't even know man. Let's let's try and draw this thing the best we can So you've got the hind limb this like I said if there's anything design inspired This is indoraptor Not only does it have the spikes it walks on all fours. It has this outline.  This is what we see It's got it's and put the sickle claw there just to make sure it looks like indoraptor as well There you go Ignore that bit. Oh, you can see okay, and then you like it's just indoraptor Like they deliberately have covered that for the front limb in smoke gig it. It's not a It's such a long body though, and it's so slim Can we bring an indoraptor hold on hold on have we got indoraptor? Anyone of members Have an indoraptor handy or can grab me an indoraptor real quick Hey member where you are Member gone member die Well indoraptor Let's get this let's get this up because I want to see like a side profile. Ha ha perfect. Thank you Jurassic world evolution Now we set this to screen we can scale it down A screen Yep, we'll flip it as well There you go. I mean Okay, so he's he's up a little bit right like but apart from that Yeah Almost fits perfectly into the leg You could if you wanted to You could just like break it, you know you could Okay, let's take this this leg Let's let's move this forward Let's uh You could so do it and then you could grab that bit of the leg Bend that backwards put that there you could make your own indoraptor It's it's such a weird design choice though this whole thing if we look at the other image I mean this it looks like it has to be it's leaning forward so much That there's only one other explanation that it's actually on its front limbs Which means that it can't be a t-rex because if it was a t-rex It would be on the floor now like this bit where like the camera moves from side to side You're like, okay, that's the full face So you got this side which with the normal eye and then you got this side Which shows the eye that's been burned or shot or something but Also, these movies even this newest one can't seem to get away from the trope that is Um Jurassic Park tropes in general So we have like The young girl character Who screams so of course, it's like lex You also have adam driver's character who's like run, which is just oh come on. No. No, no I was I thought we were done with run But no, we're not Wide That was claire's line But they deliberately put it in every friggin movie because it was like, oh, it can't be a drowsy movie without someone saying run It can be and it can be an all-right one Oh, yeah, okay. Hold on my bad. Let me get through so spaceship spaceship crash Yeah, this thing and it's just like it's like an ai has generated dinosaurs It's like you went you put indominus rex indo raptor the v rex from You know Peter Jackson king kong And it just went you went generate dinosaur four limbs go and it just it just made these things They they are I I understand where people think they're boring blind and uninspired I personally do as well. I'm kind of curious. Do you guys think they are? When you gotta run you gotta run. Yeah That's what they should have said drowsy rule. Uh, maybe I'll be like, ah, okay Ah Interesting Somebody just said so I didn't catch you there. What if these are mutations? Run or run looks more like alien I mean the thing is we have a skeleton We get a skeleton of it as well of like a t-rex You gotta go when you gotta go Not the mutation again Yeah, sorry.  What that's a dinosaur. Oh good god Okay Yeah, oh god, we're gonna can I can I get a scrub through? Oh, I can't really scrub through this. Okay. Well, I can kind of show pictures So, yeah, I mean that's obviously not a gun that humanity has at the moment. I think that's pretty obvious Yeah, well actually we can scoot it down here Let's say Am I allowed? Am I allowed? Is it okay? Yeah, baby, here we go. I'm working it is doing good. Hold on. Hold on I got this. I got this one. I got this easy peasy. Ease peas. Hold on We're gonna scoot this a little bit and we're gonna bring this thing in Yes Sword, but I need to make sure that it's all in. Hold on Hold on earbuds almost There we go, sorry Now we can scrub through kind of Yeah, so 65 trailer starts now. So yeah, you get this whole scene with like the Spaceship crashing and I'm driving on now Don't know what brawn is Yeah, come out. Have a look at it destroyed So this is where we say, ah There is anisaurus I don't know man I don't know about you Does it look very similar to the ferris anisaurus scene? I want to hear what you see you guys have to say I personally feel like actually they might have reused some of the set from Jurassic World to Minion here No, okay Uh Hey, we got more superchats Maynard boss camp I do not really have high hopes for this movie, but we'll see I think it's always good to enter these things with a good air of skepticism because nobody wants to be let down But hey, um We got task force tailor. Thanks for superchats and that mario guys First the other day humpback to the giga and now they they gave an alien rex the worst Chiropractor It does look like it broke its back Yeah, this looks so similar to the ferris anisaurus scene Wow That's crazy Yeah, crazy the quiet place I mean, they've got all this futuristic technology that it's definitely like these people are from the future 100% And produces samurai me so yeah, I mean you have this t-rex But weirdly enough you could say it's flesh on it But it kind of looks like it's Like fabric Of some sort Maybe it is Maybe this is like the t-rex that part of the You know what you could be right actually because when the spaceship crashes It does look like there's other parts of it. So possibly It did mutate a dinosaur You could be right although So I want to see that movie is the question Get to the chop Yeah, then you got the geese of the dick's loads 65 See I mean there you have it like 65 million years ago And then I think it says mankind discovered. Yeah, then you get the t-rex humans discovered earth So pretty much black and white there the movie saying This this is about humanity discovering earth 65 million years ago.  It's because we're aliens, okay, and this earth was actually the dinosaurs planet and then we went die Yeah, this thing like It just looks like it's got the anatomy of a of like a tiger, but with the head of a t-rex It's so odd that they I mean I could only think that the design department chose this Because they were like well like in dominus rex is like the most Searched for a most liked dinosaur in the entire franchise Which it is like let's be honest like even I've done polls On on youtube asking like okay guys What's your favorite kind of dinosaur in the franchise and stuff like that if you put a dominus rex in there it wins hands down So obviously universal or whoever made this. I don't think it was universal actually. It's so many pictures They looked at this and went okay. We're gonna make a dinosaur movie Make it look like in dominus I'm not the only one right I know they don't know who thinks this And then they went actually let's make it like An indoor raptor as well. It looks like an interrupter combined with a rex head. You're right. Come wait for this movie to come I I mean, I'll definitely go see it 100 percent It's just it is interesting to to see How much of an impact the Jurassic franchise has had on just dinosaurs in general when we have this movie You know that was made long after in dominus rex was a thing and dominus rex came out in 2015. Can you imagine? Seven years ago eight years ago now And yet we're still seeing the ripple effects of that throughout Dinosaur movies and this is just one of them especially Um, because I mean it it goes down and then can we turn off volume play a little bit Can I play 100% it like it does like the indoor in dominus rex thing of like going down and like looking at the floor and I'm assuming because this is like Uh, this could be the first encounter with the with the rex because You're back in these salt planes or whatever they're called in geyser fields um sulfur fields And then it looks like straight after this bit when it leans down it gets hit It might even get shot. I feel like i'm driving might shoot it in the eye That's why it turns its head that way because we've seen that its right eye is damaged And it goes off to like protect its right eye because you get shot on that eye You're not gonna go ah and present it to the thing you're gonna pull it away So I feel like that's where it gets shot by them for the first time um And then they have to get to a beacon Can't I just like I mean there's only so much you can do but it's a good way to explore this world Is a world if it's not just ours and then more symbology of adam and eve thing and Balls that explode into things not exactly sure what they do, but it's space technology It's like arc in a way. It's like really weird-looking dinosaurs, but also Hey, the wild tyrant with the supership Hey have been watching since drastic park builder. Thanks for the good content lull. I don't know what you mean by lull He's just saying since drastic public. I hope you are enjoying your day. I'm having a lovely day I love it when I get to terror pot dinosaur design It's not terrible. I would just love to know the reason why I'd love to like ask the design department be like what made you decide On like indominus rex dinosaurs, you know when you have this chance I mean maybe when you we see the movie it'll make sense but Like when it came to peter jackson's king kong and they made the v-rex You know that that was the first start of this these teeth everywhere that was in the mainstream audience Or at least that I remember and it was so cool looking And then it was like right. Okay. Everybody loves that. Let's make a domino's rex and then it was like, okay Everyone loves in domino's rex. Let's make this thing Elliott Oh, look at that. That's so cool. I didn't know how you do that. I don't know Oh Right whilst we go I mean I don't know what to expect from the plot I mean this must be a different part of the spaceship that they're trying to get to As a beacon And maybe a volcano erupts because you know, it's the dinosaur movie Here's the close-up shot showing the eye that was shot before saying that though the It could be that he shoots the t-rex in the eye It goes like oh no, why and then it comes back and then you get this shot of it close up because it is the same sort of lighting Yeah, it could be Um, and then this I mean just look at that design with those spikes It is 1 million percent in domino's rex like the way it looks and everything, but it's like sort of crouched Like it would be An indoor raptor I don't know man and then this thing here I mean that that's it in all of its glory right there In fact, hold on two seconds guys. Let's I'm pretty sure I took that And I will see And then you're 65. It's a weird name for a movie Oh, yeah, and then like I think this is just after Like this weird thing appears and then I don't know adam driver comes in and like bonks it over the head Or I don't know it gets distracted even by something else and then it's like oh, it's safe Ah, I get pulled You know, you know, I mean, you know exactly how this is going to play out the psych out They always do the psych out. It's like oh danger. Oh wait.  We're safe All like the random scream from her It's not the actress's fault. It's the writers It's this whole marvel dc one of them dc marvel um script writing that's just infiltrated the mainstream media and made everything The way it is now unfortunately Um kaiju park. Good morning. Well, it's night. Maybe it's 12 o'clock. It's actually 12 a.m. Yeah Uh, good day to you bives. Thank you. Uh, sup steve Looks like to rock 2007 of the movie I'm trying to move 2007 God, you're right. Is that the one I played 2007? Yeah, no those designs you're right. It does look like those They were brilliant. Hold on. Let's bring up some of those to rock designs, man Okay, so what we're gonna do Is we are now gonna bring in we're gonna make The design board For how this how this movie got made. Okay That's what we're gonna do All right, so first off It's a movie about dinosaurs. Okay so We're gonna bring in Indominus Rex because I mean Why else would you have anything else? Indominus Rex is the selling point. Hell. Yeah, so we're going. Dominus Rex Well, what else do we need? Indoraptor Yes Yes, and there we have Indoraptor because of course we have Indoraptor So if we have a look at its design, what else does it look like? Where are you? Where are you? Yeah, so this is the crater and I was thinking that you know, this is how I don't know it all started in a way Like we thought that it was a meteor that destroyed the dinosaurs and actually it was their spaceship Um that crashed into the earth and it's just That's what the conclusion we've came to If they go completely conspiracy theory I'm kind of I'm kind of game for it because I just want I just want to see something different There you are babes right, okay, so yes, we still need I just type in vrex will it come up heck. Yeah heck. Yeah. There it is. I mean that's not the one from the movie Yeah, I mean that'll do get to the point across So it all started with kind of this guy This vrex Just delete some of it I mean even down to its weird hind legs Like is what that thing has Like just you you you put all these in a blender Then you have that Just like yep, there you go all done. I don't know. What do you think hey excited? How you doing buddy? Aliens ground them mutate dinosaurs to hunt them Oh Oh So you think they get shot down by aliens And then the aliens mutate the dinosaur species To hunt them down. You know what it doesn't sound too far fetched. Is it what? Oh You're right. I'm an idiot no So when he's just came in to tell me that I misspelled the new dinosaur movie and I'm I've Let's discuss the new dinosaur move 65 I'm sure someone in the comments has been trying to like correct me the whole time be like Oh, yeah, I just kind of wanted to come on here and um Just sort of discuss with you guys. What do you think? Beaver need to go to school. I don't do you ha I mean that I I guess It yeah, I guess what excited said could be true like aliens mutate them But it it just sounds I don't know I guess if we're going this far sure if we're making indominus rex dinosaurs like does does the t-rex Hold on do I not have I mean it's probably got more like a I don't know. It's not an allosaur head, but it's it's more broad than that, but it it's got the gray coloring of indominus It's got the weird sort of crouched down back of maybe the vrex, but then also got the forelimbs and back of Indoreptor and not only that but it it has spikes on it. It has I mean look at the claws Look at that long like finger it's got which is exactly what indominus rex had indominus rex had these weird like long fingers What if we are seeing like a Jurassic world tie-in Where they just called you know because they do that you had clover field and you had loads of other clover fields sort of movies that weren't called clover field Imagine imagine, but they've they've teamed up with Sony Pictures to bamboozle everybody That'll be hilarious Kaiju Park with a super chat If Sam Raimi is directing this then bully maguire is Going to throw some dirt in the dino's eyes Also, when will we have feather dinos in a movie? Is that Sam Raimi's spider-man. Oh my god. I didn't make the connection Wow, okay. Yeah, you're right Ethan holiday the antagonist is indorex raptor Fine I craze oh From the other side of the world. How's midday doing? It's a good because it's night over here Big fan of the claws to be honest. Well who isn't How could you not be? But it's just it's just like I mean we've seen it all before if we're going back To view or at least have another reshot at some dinosaur designs. Why are we going back to universals scraps? Can we not do something different? I mean Let's not argue semantics, right this design right here is what we as a consumer or a You know a general audience has come to know of dinosaurs And still feathers are seen as this weird thing like was six foot turkey like, you know So this design makes absolute sense why they would do it. It's safe It's you know dinosaurs supposed to be scary scary things or things like this But at the same time, you know making something look scary Is it kind of defeats it in a way like I find if you make something doesn't look scary for instance, but then you make it scary Not by making it like giving it the evil eyebrows or anything like that or making it scaly or god knows what Put in a scenario where it is scary, you know Craft a story like that. That's you know, that's where you see the The true like I don't know what you'd call it Just the things that stick out in the horror genre loads, right? Like I mean you see Mike Myers. You don't think he's that scary or you know, but it's it's how he's introduced How how he is on film It's a bit like chucky as well like the doll doesn't look that scary unless you're scared of dolls um I don't know it could it could be like the Lophosaurus as well Like that was scary because of its introduction because it's frill and it was like it made a terrifying noise It had this huge frill It was iconic so much so they didn't include it until the last film Oh, okay, we got loads of super chance to get through uh, what are your expectations when watching non-jurassic licensed dinosaur movies? low But that's mainly because A lot of dinosaur non-budget movies that come out um Oh, sorry non-budget not non-budget non-licensed. I have low budget Um, I don't think it's impossible to make good dinosaur movies. Of course not and you could I want to see it I think it's doable um, but yeah, when I go into a dinosaur movie nowadays and I do think that it's like I mean name a dinosaur movie that came out recently in the theaters or whatever There wasn't a Jurassic and was good I mean, oh, I guess a pop-up documentaries and stuff like that. That's where you can really let that shine But I don't know I it's a shame Beluki, how you doing? Someone had unlocked a hypo tyrannosaurus rex. I see I mean that yeah, you're right. Hold on. Hold on I mean the aisle is Wow typing the aisle hypo rex is the first thing that comes up I mean, it's got smaller teeth But yeah, it is very much like a hypo rex Trying to find like an actual screenshot of one, but like I don't even Hold on. Hold on. So this is a hypo rex from the aisle It You know what I mean There's so many sources that you could you could have for this kind of design. It's it's it's not It's not original And it's just a shame that this looks like a big budget movie and unfortunately It's just like whatever I know that's my two cents Uh collector source rex and beyond Jurassic plus Star Wars plus et where you're right about that because it does have adam driver Let's have a look. What else can we I want to see something something new something grab me Yeah, I mean It's kind of cute, but at the same time It's still this it it just looks like a naked mole wrap Looks like a touch it and it would be like It would make that Be like made of jelly Yeah, I don't know Maybe maybe they maybe they do drop a bomb or something. I don't know if we're going down the alien route I mean we're in space.  Please don't because it just gets messy. No one likes it But yeah, that's that's so there is an a source. Maybe he dropped into the bios in facility Blue keys scaly tyrannosaurus rex was proven correct with scale impressions Just like in prehistoric planet, but maybe babies have fluff. By the way, I was the guy with the car car tooth Car car tooth Oh, hold on. Oh, yes. No, in now. I remember a Imagine the time travel machine destroyed Well, that's what I'm thinking maybe if we're going to go down the time travel route then Maybe it is You know broken and then this is the start of humanity and it was always going to be this way You know How's profit? How's profit says for doringo? And I don't know how is profit profit profit on this will be very good because people love dinosaur movies That have a you know a star in them. It was chris pratt in Jurassic world in this 65 It'll be adam driver. So as long as you've got like The star power of at least one actor. You've got decent cg You got a decent budget for marketing, which this definitely has and just generally for production Yeah, I could I can see this doing well but It's just like I don't I don't understand why we are doing you know this It's safe. It is a hundred percent safe 100 percent. Yeah, so wait what March 17th only in cinemas. I thought it was March 10 Did I get that wrong or I guess it depends on where you're where you are actually Maybe March 10th was in the us could have been Hold on. I want to see that gun Look at those fingernails. They've been bitten down Adam driver is a nail biter. There you go. You heard it here first I want to find the the part of Yeah, yeah, hold on hold on this bit So you get a perfect side of the dinosaur and I still think this is after it was shot or something Look at that Joe.  I'm assuming that's something else Jurassic creator a member for 90 months. Well done I think since the dinosaurs are antagonistic in the films like this the creators make them look like monsters So general audiences fear them instantly. Yeah, oh a hundred percent like design these things Look at them. Do they look like the good guys from movies? No No, they do not I mean, you got it right, but at the same time it's like Uh, blue key sales would be higher if it were 69 million years ago Well done Hold on Emotion low I imagine if they did that Imagine if the movie was just called 69 They definitely wouldn't do it They didn't go for 64 because 64 64 million years ago Well, that'll be the sequel, but also that's when the dinosaurs went extinct I didn't do 69 because they didn't want to be they didn't want to meme it anybody's watching from sony, please I'd love that I'd love to ask adam driver Questions about dinosaurs was Jurassic park. Did that say 65 million years in the making was that best? Was that their tagline for Jurassic park? I know they had like so many million years in the making maybe Game and beaver have you seen the old dinosaur island movie from like 10 years ago? It had plenty of feathered dinosaurs and its plot was thrilling. Have you seen it? Dinosaur island No Did that have a dinosaur island movie Oh 2040 no, I think I might have seen this. Okay. So you see this Is what hollywood wants you to see what you really want to see That's what we want. There we go. Yeah My friend designed that rex. Oh really this one Why? Anyway, anyway, I don't I don't want to stay here too much longer. Um Kaiju park with a superjack. This is clearly a venom rex. I'm sorry. Yeah, you're right. It's good You know what needs to happen in this Right, so It kneels down Right. So first off We haven't heard the t-rex yet. Okay, so I'm expecting like a generic rex kind of raw You know like a lion elephant sort of sounds, but when it's doing this bit, right? I want it to go It needs to do that sound effect, you know, like the endomus rex does any monster nowadays Makes this guttural noise and I don't know where it came from But it's it's so annoying to me now because everything does it even that like terrible disney pinocchio remake With um monster or whatever like chases pinocchio and goes Like after like stop it, please Go not be original for once Kaiju park again with a super chat What's this other sound Kaiju park did a super chat. There we go. Uh if t-rex dangerous why fluffy and friend shaped? Yeah, because that's the what's it called subverting expectations It looks friendly, but it's not That's why that's why the dialogue did so well. It's like, ah, it's fine. He's having a conversation with it Uh, my lord boss camp says but the dinos went extinct 66 million years ago No, they went extinct 64 million years ago. Wasn't it please tell me more because I went to there's a place in them Where I'm from in Newcastle called the center for life and it's like It's like a place where they I don't know it's for kids basically to learn and discover science and stuff like that But I remember Like plucking up the courage during like a seminal like you know with the kids and it was like a I don't know it was like a lecture And um the guy was like does anybody know how long ago the dinosaurs lived and I was like This is my time to shine baby. They put my hand up. I went 64 million years ago. He went Well, actually that's when the dinosaurs died out But if you close I can't believe he did me like that. I was like come on you kind of just went yeah You can run. Yeah, they also died that time. Yeah, but he was like no, I'm gonna shut this kid down be like Actually, that's when they died out. They lived like from he wanted like and then another kid went From like 200 million years to 65 million years ago I was like You little buggy I was big. I think they're trying to imply that Humans didn't exist on earth naturally And that's why We don't really fit into the ecosystem now. That's why when it like as we're evolving quotations as we're sort of Advancing technology and stuff the world is going out of whack and all this jazz Because we're not from this planet this planet isn't made for us Um, and maybe you know like a lot of futuristic plots that happen have this like Our like earth is so polluted and rubbish that we now need to find a new earth like avatar So I wouldn't be surprised if like this is similar It's like oh boy, they went back in time to try and find You know a source of something or or maybe they were trying to find a different planet And then actually they accidentally went through a black hole or something and went back in time Uh, something like that. I I could imagine that um Pro c wants a song. Okay, you're gonna get this one You get a good song. I think I think I've rambled about this long enough. Um, but yeah Thank you everybody who's tuned in. Hopefully I've answered. Well, I mean, I don't know what to expect I'm I'm excited for it. I haven't got my expectations too high I mean the main draw for this For me personally is dinosaurs and the designs and you know when you've got so much That's why I like avatar too so much like just But those like there's just a scene in it in there when you're underwater No dialogue, no nothing and you're just exploring this world that Like doesn't exist. That's freaking cool And that was worth like the entry like price of entry for me Like I didn't care about the plot or anything. I was like, I want to see something that I cannot see Um and movies allow us to see that. That's why I'm just annoyed that this is just like indominus rex again Because you put I don't know what the budget is for it, but it's just indominus rex again Uh, kirk white lions Even primeval designs looked more like dinosaurs and that was a long time ago Good god But yes, anyway, thank you so much everybody for tuning in If there is like another trailer of the drops or something like that if it if it is enough to go into Maybe we'll make a video But I kind of like just talking through it with you guys on here. This is so much fun I'm like there's a bit ball back and forth for you um So yeah, thank you everyone. Uh, this was an interesting little thing we did. Hopefully it was a little bit messy But we're okay and anyway guys if you enjoyed this video if you're watching it on video Leave a like or if you're watching on stream Leave that like and until next time I'll see you guys laying


In this episode, you're going to learn how to radically increase your influence within the organization by connecting business to design. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hi, my name is Ryan Rumsey. This is the Service Design Show, Episode 119. Hi, I'm Mark and welcome to the Service Design Show. On this show, we explore what's beneath the surface of service design. What are they hidden and invisible things that make all the difference between success and failure, all to help you design and deliver great services that have a positive impact on people and business. The guest in this episode is Ryan Rumsey. He's the CEO of Second Wave Dive and the author of a book called Business Thinking for Designers. The topic we're going to explore today is the one where we're entering a new stage for design. We've managed to get a seat at the table and now people have expectations of what we can bring, the value we can bring, but often it's still a big struggle to actually deliver upon those expectations, especially when we have to connect our work to the language and thinking of organizations that aren't yet designed. So if you stick around till the end of the episode, you'll have a better understanding of how you can collaborate with your business partners and let go of the feeling that you have to convince them all the time, which will make your life more fun, your work easier and most importantly help you to deliver the impact you know you can. If you're interested in learning what's underneath the surface of service design, what are the ingredients for success and you haven't yet subscribed to this channel, make sure you do that because we bring a new video at least once a week that will help you to level up your service design skills. Now having said that, it's time to sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Ryan Rumsey. Welcome to the show Ryan. Hi Mark, pleasure to be here. Happy to have you on on this special day in many occasions. Yesterday was the inauguration, the previous episode was recorded just after the capital storm of the capital. So yeah, big moments are happening right now. Yeah, today is a much calmer day than we've had in a long time and I'm quite relieved for it. For the people who haven't googled your name yet, could you give a 30-second introduction and we'll dig into that later a lot more? Sure. My name is Ryan Rumsey. I am currently based in Austin, Texas. I have a background in design but also building design and product and strategy organizations. I've had the pleasure of working at companies like Apple and Electronic Arts and USAA, a large bank here in the US and I'm an author. I wrote a book last year with InVision called Business Thinking for Designers and so yeah, that's a little bit about me. I can highly recommend the book. I listened and read it this week actually to prepare for our chat and we were just preparing for it and my comment was there are so many things in there which I was already using but didn't have the proper name, didn't have a coherent story related to business thinking for designers as the book is called so I can highly recommend it for anybody who's listening if you want to know what to google. That's one of the big benefits. Thank you. I'm astonished that people have read it still. It's been almost a year and so thank you for reading. We're waiting for version two already. Maybe something is cooking. Yeah, that's a teaser because at the end of the audiobook there is already chapter one of the next book maybe. Anywho, I have a 60-second question rapid fire for you to get to know you a little bit better. So the whole point is to just answer these questions as quickly as you can. The first question is what's always in your fridge? Pickles. Alright, always pickles. Which book are you reading? I am right now reading Small is Beautiful. It's actually a 50-year-old book now by E.F. Schumacher all about economics being based around community rather than capitalism or corporations. Which superpower would you like to have? That's an easy one, flight. Again, so many people who want to fly, come on, especially now. What did you want to become when you were a kid? You know, I wanted to become a doctor. We could talk more about probably my most popular article on the internet is I rewrote or rewrote or captured my autobiography that I wrote when I was 14. And it is by far the most googled and hit article. And I think there's a lot of 14-year-olds writing an autobiography. So I wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. Oh gosh, that's quite specific. Yeah. And the final question, although you're not specifically into service design, you're not out of service design either. So my question is what was the first time that you got introduced to service design? Gosh, I want to say probably around 2006, 2007. I have a lot of curiosity and I tend to dig into different things that aren't particularly, you know, domain specific. And so I recalled seeing some work, you know, back then everybody used to blog a lot and sort of share work in the open. And so I think it was around 2006, 2007 that I began to see a lot of the material. The topic we want to investigate and dig into the rabbit hole we're going to go down to is one that I think a lot of people struggle with. And that is how do you as a designer actually influence decision making? How do you get, how do you make change happen within organizations? Because we see a lot of designers struggle with moving from insights, research, artifacts, and actually translating that into business outcomes, right? And I think that's the topic you're just as excited about as I am. So that's what we're going to try to unravel and maybe give people some practical tips and yeah, yeah, things that they can actually do to be more impactful the next day. I'm quite interested like you wrote a book about business thinking for the designers. Can you take us back to what led you to write a book about this? And I'm curious, what was there a turning point in your career that you thought I need to understand this better? Well, there's a clear turning point. The turning point wasn't necessarily the same time that I was going thinking about a book. But the turning point I write about in the book, which was, I had an opportunity in 2011. So now 10 years ago to move from Apple, I had worked at Apple for about four years, where I was leading design for AppleCare. So not the glamorous side of Apple or the well known side of Apple, but designing essentially enterprise tools for AppleCare as an organization. So when you would call or message an AppleCare advisor, the tools that they use every day are the tools that I was working on in designing. But at Apple, we as designers were responsible for the product definition, which meant I had the authority, if you will, to say no to going live. So I could tell the engineering team that they did not develop the application to my standards or my specs or what matched up with my research that no, I'm going to hold back and say they couldn't go live. And so that was a very, I thought, normal way of working. And then I got an opportunity to go to Electronic Arts and build a design and actually program management organization from scratch inside a brand new customer experience organization from scratch. So it was like everything was built, the bigger organization I was in and then my organization. And what I found was that everything that worked at Apple, like of how we made decisions, none of that was working at Electronic Arts. The sort of way I describe it as Apple is they had a firm grasp on what they wanted to do. And then they would tell the employee, they would tell me or others say, Well, we don't know how to do it. That's why we've hired you. Go figure it out. And then I went over to a different environment, a different culture of sort of decision making. And it was kind of the opposite of that. It was more like, Well, we don't really know what we want, but this is how we work. And suddenly I'm going, Well, wait, that's, you know, how you work is not how we make great things. And it was just suddenly within, you know, a few weeks, 30 days, me going, I'm woefully unprepared for that challenge of, you know, trying now to convince other people that this is a proper way. And it was really it had a profound effect on me. I was really not in a well place. I was really upset, you know, how could people recognize this? So you go from an organization, which I would describe, and a lot of people probably would describe as being design led to an organization, which is not design led, it's probably engineering led or operations led, right? And then you have certain expectations about what's needed for you as a designer to actually be able to deliver value to the organization. And then there's friction, there's tension, like what, what did you notice? What actually started happening in that the period? So, you know, it's easy to talk about these things in hindsight, right? You know, you can kind of reflect and build. But fundamentally, at the time, I thought there was something wrong with me. I thought I was broken in a way, like that they had. I wasn't up to the job. And so it was more this like, what am I doing wrong? What's wrong with me? And I had a wonderful mentor at the time. So the backstory of me joining Electronic Arts is actually my boss at Apple had been recruited by Electronic Arts. And there were a couple of us that moved over. And so one of my closest peers and mentors that I had worked with at Apple had already, you know, a long relationship with, came over to Electronic Arts as well. And I remember going on like daily walks, we had, you know, sort of a path around the building. And just talking, like not in a sense of like, here are the things that we have to do, but just like, something is wrong. I'm not doing it right. And so the feeling was more like, it must be me, you know, less than, oh, here's the structural thing that's going on. But was it a feeling like not being able to contribute to the organization or not being understood or? You know, I think it was not feeling understood by even some of the same people that I had worked with previously, because they were adapting to like culture that I couldn't see. But I think it was more a sense of like, there's a bigger picture here that I don't have access to, or I haven't spent enough time with. And there's also this pressure that now you're here. Now we expect things to be Apple-like. And it took me a little bit of time to realize like the things that we had made and developed at Apple were like, they were years long initiatives. Really, that sort of product is never solved. It's always unfinished kind of, you know, and here we're moving over to Electronic Arts. It was like, okay, now you're here. We need the things that you had made at Apple. It's been three months. They should be in place. But we don't want them to look or feel or be anything like the things you made at Apple. They should be totally different. So there was like this vague, like, where are we going? What's happening? And I felt really disoriented. And none of the sort of design tools and methodologies were helping me in this circumstance. I couldn't write a persona for a customer that was going to affix this, right? And I can imagine, like you said, there were expectations about what design should be adding and how it, yeah, what you should be delivering. And you had expectations and at some point, they don't line up and a lot of bad things can happen, right? Right, right. I think there was this, you know, and in hindsight, I think, and this kind of gets into why I wrote the book is there are things I wish I knew going into it that I don't think we often talk about. Before, yeah, before we, yeah, you know, and so it's like just going down that path of like, I just, I knew there was bigger picture there. But I didn't have access to the information. So that that got you to probably investigate and try to learn what's going on here. Why isn't this working? Why am I feeling miserable? Why am I frustrated?  Like, right, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. I think we we've all been in that situation where when you when you when you don't have the luxury to be in an organization that truly values design and that is design led and the design maturity is high, then you have a lot of work to do which isn't related to design. And that's the thing we don't get prepared to, right? And yeah, and in hindsight, now again, it's actually very related to design. Tell me, we just have to change, you know, what we what we consider design and human centered and all these things. Yeah. So where do we start? Because what maybe we need to frame? What is the thing that you didn't grasp at that moment? What? What was the mystery? Well, I think one of the biggest and this is I all credit to my mentor. His name is Jeff. We were out for a walk. And what he said was, at Apple, people valued you because you would come up with the right answer or the answer that then they thought was the right answer. But here you have to learn the art of letting other people have your way. When we're in different cultural environments, you might have to recognize that it's not about being right or the right thing to do. And it's more about allowing others to participate in that decision. And so one of the first things that he so he literally said this on a walk, learn the art of letting other people have your way. And suddenly it flipped a switch in my head. And I was like, hmm, you know, when we talk about customers and users and kind of human factors and all those things, our colleagues are humans too. Right? Do we actually know what's keeping them up at night? And so what one of the first things that I did was I sat in meetings and I sat in a room not as like that maybe an active participant where I needed to say what I wanted to say, but as a researcher, what are the dynamics happening here? When do decisions get made? How are they made? If we let somebody talk long enough, do they end up doing like a full circle? And so that was one of these first steps is like, okay, I'm just going to calm down. I'm not going to talk. I'm going to be an active listener and I am going to take notes by what I observe. Yeah, so you basically started to study the organization with your design, mindset, attitude, tool, skills. That's right. And what did you learn? Well, I mean, I began to learn that there were types of people who felt more comfortable with making decisions that were maybe considered more risky. There were types of people who were driven by some type of data informing them. And then there were lots of types, other types of people who were quite happy to just be told what to do. And we know about servant leadership and I was aware of that, but there's another concept called situational leadership. That is a super fascinating structure. I highly recommend going looking at it. And it's basically looking at some people want to be led, but others want to be directed. Others kind of want to be told what to do. And so those are the types of things is like looking at here, I'm part of a leadership team and looking at my peers and saying, ooh, this person, they just want their boss to tell them what to do and they'll go off and do it. But this other person here and maybe more me wants to be part of what gets decided. And so it was interesting to just sort of take notes. And suddenly we start to see some behavioral characteristics, some decision making characteristics. Now, if we pause for a second and say, come on, you are hired to do your job, you are hired as a designer, people knew what they were, hopefully knew what they were getting into. Why not stick to your craft? They didn't know. When we talk about people thinking or knowing, I think after a couple months, it was clear what they were expecting or what the expectations they were getting were different than the expectations I thought that they wanted. So when we talk about design at Apple, it has a very different perception and understanding than I think what a lot of people expect out of design. Was there ever a moment that you thought they have to change? Oh, sure. I'm not going to learn. I'm not getting an MBA. I'm not learning about business. I'm the designer. That's why you hired me. I think a lot of my initial reaction was that way. And so I carried that for a while. I'll be clear with that. And then so I was there for two years. We did a lot of good work, but it was very painful. I didn't necessarily feel good. And so I got another opportunity to go to another organization. And very quickly, I saw the same patterns. You've invited me here and now you just want to question. But one of the things that stuck out was interesting. I'm the only constant variable in these two situations. We're talking about electronic arts, wonderful company. There's so many great things about them. And then I got an opportunity to go work in an R&D facility working on systems biology for Nestle in Switzerland. And they went from, we've hired somebody who worked at Apple to like a week later, the same patterns of like, why are you doing this? No, no, no. That's not what we want to do. And me going like, whoa, hold on. Okay. Why is it the same thing? Why is there the same thing happening at a video game company that is a company that's working on systems biology? That's strange. And wait, I'm the only no, none of the same characters are here except me. Oh, wait, maybe, maybe I need to rethink how I'm approaching this. Yeah. And I guess that experience is really powerful. Like, if you're still, if you're in the same context all the time, it might be really easy to blame the context. But like you said, if you experience the same thing in multiple different environments, then it's probably, it has something to do with you. Yeah. And I think that is something in my work now, you know, when I speak to a lot of designers and people who've been around for a while, I work with a lot of sort of mid-career professionals. They suddenly, in having this conversation, if they've moved to a couple jobs, it's me saying, well, you're the constant variable. And that's this light switch in them that goes, oh, my gosh. And yes, that is what it is, right? And so if we paint the picture of what is possible for the people who are watching and listening right now, how would you describe the situation you're in right now? And how big is the contrast to what it used to be? So I think, right, design has matured as an industry by and large over the last 15 years. But I think there's a popular culture narrative of what it is as an industry and contextually that might not be the same in your environment. So I think when I work with people and I chat with people, you know, one of the first things I say is like, you are introducing a new culture into an existing culture. Things have happened before you were there. Maybe start by being a historian first. Has this initiative been tried before? How many times before? By whom are they still here? Is there still some type of emotional connection to what has been tried before? So that's one of the first pragmatic things is just as like, if you're new to an organization or even a situation is just to sort of say, like, can I just be a researcher? Can I just talk to everybody? See kind of what's happened. The same type of work that we do with say customer stuff or user stuff, service design stuff, what's what is the front and back of house of decision making, right? So that's usually where I say that's where we can start. And do you feel that the influence you have right now, like, what is the big game of getting good at this? Because we talked about it's like playing different games. And let's assume that you partially mastered this other game as well. What's possible? So I think fundamentally, let's start about the self. What you gain is a lot more confidence in the decisions you're making. Even if the answer isn't what you want it to be, you still have a lot more confidence that you did a good job in presenting your rationale, presenting your argument. And then yes, we don't win every single time. I think what you also get is trust in others, right? It's not a quant metric that you can gauge, but what are the things that you might sense and trust is, oh, my colleagues tend to be asking for more research or asking me to be involved earlier in a process. That's something new. That's a good feeling, right? So I think a lot of the things that we tend to gain out of this are, you know, all those things that they say like, oh, relationship skills, hard skills. But it's still, for me, comes back to the self, like that you just can sort of sit back and know that you've done a good job that you are worthy enough, try to remove some of that kind of imposter syndrome that I think a lot of people suffer for as they go through career transitions, right? And your life will be much more fun. Your work will be much more fun, less stressful, less frustration. I think you use the word convincing people, like getting out of that mentality that you have to convince people, seeing them as somebody you need to win over, rather than them being partners. Like that's a completely different dynamic. And I think that's what the future holds if you get this right. That's right. You know, there's a common phrase that I hear coming up a lot, still coming up a lot with designers, but also product managers, other functions as well, which is we need buy in. We need buy in. We need others to buy into this, right? We need headcount. We need this. If you stand back for a second pause, it's a very self centered way of approaching collaboration. And so one of the things that, you know, I work with people on is, what are you selling? And what are your colleagues buying? Can you be a little more intentional around that dynamic? That in turn will relieve some of your anxiety. That in turn will relieve some of your pain if you're just a little more pragmatic and intentional about, right? It's a different dynamic. Collaboration teamwork is not about I need to convince them. It's more about maybe relieving their pain that also relieves my pain, right? You know, four years ago, I created a course on selling services with confidence. And then one of the first things I try to point out in that course is that selling is not about convincing somebody is understanding that selling is about helping somebody achieve something they already want to do. And I think as well, once you get in that perspective that you have something to offer and your partners in the organization have a pain, like you need to make, you need to make that connection. And that's up to you. Like, and I think that's a skill that not a lot of designers are familiar with, interested in, don't know that they lack actually the skill to do. What is it? Mark? Partnership. Relationship. Yeah. Yeah. So that's one of the things that I've developed over time is, you know, when we talk about relation, build great relationships, right? Everybody kind of knows you have to do that. But that's kind of where it ends. Like, you're left to your own devices to sort of figure out what that is. But I tend to get really pragmatic. Like, how can you actually practice that? And so one of the methods that related to a canvas or service design type of tool is a canvas I've called the Good Partner Map. And it's really two different frameworks that I've combined. And the first framework comes from business models, business model, a magic triangle, which is essentially like, who are you providing value to? What do you provide of value? How do you provide that value? And then why is it valuable to them? So if you think about that, design is a discipline. I'm providing value to product management. Here are the skills and capabilities I provide. How do I provide them? It's through a Slack message or through a canvas or through research. Why is that valuable to the product management team is a question that I don't think we ask a lot. But then the second part here, which is critical, critical to change, is we're talking about behavior design. There are pragmatic ways to actually consider where you might make small changes to your approach. Can you give an example? Are you familiar with BJ Fogg's work or Atomic Habits? So what I have done is looked and studied his work and turned it into a simplified two by two grid, which is essentially saying in every behavior, there are three elements. Somebody needs to be motivated. They have to have the ability to do something. And they need some type of prompt or call to action to do something. So when it comes to partnerships, what I then work with people on is like, do you know if somebody has high motivation? Do you know if they have the ability to action what you've given them? Or do you need to provide some new call to action? Very pragmatic example for service design, service blueprints or journey maps. Most of my colleagues in my career are glad to receive those. Wonderful. Look at this. This is amazing information. I love these insights. And then they put them in a drawer. So the thing when it comes to behavior design is to understand that they're highly motivated but they have low ability to actually do anything with that map. Right. And so from behavior design, you say, how can we make journey mapping more actionable for our colleagues? It's not to maybe make a better artifact. It's maybe work that happens in the process of mapping or afterwards. Conversely, research. I don't know many companies who really want to spend money on research. So they have low motivation. So what you're not trying to do is give them something easier to do. You're trying to give them a new call to action as to why research is valuable. But then if you get very pragmatic and sort of intentional about that, you know that this is all design. And then how might you change a little bit of your model of what design as a discipline is providing as a partnership? There are so many good things in this. For one, is I think we need to get over the assumption that the people who we work with, and even if they hired us, actually know the value of what we bring. That's one. Right. And the other thing is when we start to see ourselves as service providers, which we are, you said it's a discipline, but we're actually providing a service to the organization, to clients, and then you have to understand how to position, explain the value of the service in a way that connects to other people. And then you have to use a different vocabulary probably than your design vocabulary. You have to use a vocabulary that's familiar to the person you're talking to. This is the great thing about sitting in a room and being a researcher. Write down words that you don't really know. Or write down words that you have questions. We talked about googling, right? Sit in a room, and when somebody says return on investment, spend a little time googling, not a specific, just what is return on investment? Are there things there, right? And then one of my favorite things to do is remix. So not create something new, take something that already exists, and just remix it a little. Do you have an example? Yeah. Sure, sure. Let's talk about remixing the phrase phase gate. So in traditional project management, you have phases that an engineering team or a project management team knows. Like so design, delivery, test, build, all these things. And they have what many organizations will call a phase gate. We're done with design. Now we move to the next phase. So when I worked at Electronic Arts the second time, I worked in IT. IT is full of preexisting culture. And so instead of saying you're doing it wrong, we should not be waterfall. We should be agile. What I had to say is like, how can I remix or really localize a lot of the words that are already being used? And I said, ah, phase gates. You know what's interesting? There's this other way of working called product management. It's not too far. It's like a cousin. And they also have phase gates. But those phase gates are more around conception, inception, introduction, maturity, decline, because when we talk about the difference of making like a tangible, hard physical item, you deliver it and you release it to the world and you never have to update it again. But when we talk about digital work, as soon as we release it to the world, we have to constantly be improving it. The work is never really done until we've determined that it's time to retire that. And so that's a way of remixing their language and just saying, we have the same word that you use. There's just a slightly different connotation in our approach. So I'm curious about remixing in regards to a topic or a challenge. I think every designer has experience in the past. And that is we already touched upon the return on investment. But what happens when you get the question of having to quantify the value of your work, the business value? Sure. And that's probably one of the most uncomfortable situations for a lot of designers because we focus on quality. We don't focus on quantifying stuff. What is your experience around that? Is it possible to cross that chasm? It is. It is. Fortunately. My first journey into this was accidental in 2009 when I worked at Apple. I was working side by side with MBAs. And my leadership just threw out like a curious question. Hmm. Our MBAs are using structures like balanced scorecards to kind of track how we're doing. It's a different way of looking at quality. Do you have anything like that? At this point, I started sweating going like, I've never, what? There's nothing like this. But it got me, they prompted me in a curious way. It's not like your performance review is not dependent on this. It was just like, hey, is there something you can sort out? So it just encouraged me to go start looking around. And about the same time, Livia Lobate and Austin Govella, some designers here in the U.S., were presenting at the IA Summit, the Information Architecture Summit 2009, I think they had what they called a UX health check, which is just placing some ratings in rubrics to kind of saying, here's what we think value is. And so I began mashing those things together. Could I take the structural framework of a balanced scorecard and just apply rubrics and ratings for what I thought was business performance or technical performance, what I thought was adoption as it related to the design lens. But it was really all about mapping. So when you talk about mapping value or how do you connect value, I think one of the biggest missing things in OKRs or measurements is, what do the objectives actually have to do with one another? So we think about metrics, metrics, metrics, what are the right metrics? But what does skilling up an employee have to do with customer satisfaction? What does increasing the velocity have to do with sales and performance? Well, guess what? There's another framework out there. It's the balanced scorecard approach. It's a methodology, not just a report. And so there's a lovely little tool out there called Strategy Maps. So it's in the book. We talk about it. But what it is really doing is connecting cause and effect. If we do this, then we expect that. If we get that, then we expect this. And it's the same thing with design now. We don't communicate effectively. What does accessibility have to do with usability? What does usability have to do with trust? What does trust then have to do with satisfaction? And so those are the types of things that we can begin to connect. And you can measure usability. You can measure in different ways, maybe not super quant, but trust, right? And if you begin to start measuring those, that's just an experiment you're going to continue to approve. Again, people start Googling Strategy Maps because I think that's a super powerful missing connection in the design space and also in the service design space, of course. And when I was going over this, a light bulb came up because I was using similar models to sort of try to quantify the value. And the challenge I see and what designers tend to get stuck when they get asked the ROI question is...  And you're like, revenue, we're working on a much lower scale, a much lower level. So the disconnect is so big. And what I think is needed and what you also advocate in the book is you just need to make, just in between quotes, you just need to make a statement which makes it believable or hypothesis that the thing that you're doing on this low level eventually will compound and contribute to revenue. That's right. One of the biggest switches that I made was the way I approached challenging a business assumption. I think in 2011, when I joined Electronic Arts and I joined companies, one of the biggest misconceptions I had, and this is no fault of any company, Apple is crazy metric driven. I worked in Applecare. We had the organization of Applecare as a cost center. I worked in Tim Cook as the chief financial officer organization. So you're talking about like, 13 key performance indicators and like 25 supporting performance indicators. Like we were working with standard deviations. So the assumption that I had when I went to another organization is that math was being used. So when we talk about return on investment, let's demystify that. ROI is just how much does it cost? When will I get it? How many people need to be involved? It's that. But one of the greatest ways that I have found to challenge a business assumption is to ask about the math. So often, right? We talk about Googling all the time. I certainly have done this over the years. Somebody will come to me and say, like, we need to improve retention. And I go and panic. You know, I did. We'd go and panic and Google, Google, Google. How do you calculate retention? How do I connect to retention? But I think one of the things that I've learned over the years is to, ah, treat it as a curiosity. Interesting. You know, I'd really like to improve retention. Can you tell me our current retention rate? Because if they don't have a current retention rate, they're not using math. And there's no way to actually calculate the value of a guess. It is all subjective. And my assumption was that surely the business partners, executives are using math to drive all their decisions, but oftentimes they're not. And so then, if we get really pragmatic, trying to then go and figure out the math is an interesting provocation of saying, like, how can I invite them to go experiment and start looking at math in this way? And then knowing what we might be exposing is like years of bad decision-making. Yeah. Again, what I like here is that we... I don't know if we're hiding or if we're naive or ignorant, but we're also not too much concerned about the value that we provide. Like, if you don't make any assumptions or you cannot hold accountable for the value that you didn't deliver if there isn't a benchmark. So we often, I think, do it to sort of protect ourselves of not having to get into that conversation. But I think that is working against us. And what we should do instead is when a client starts to approach you and hasn't raised the conversation about value, the business value that you are contributing, it should be you who pushes for that rather than saying, ah, nice. We don't have to think about numbers and RRI. You as a designer have to be critical and say, I want to be contributing to something that the company actually values and that the customer's value. Right, because what we find ourselves is if we're not curious and we don't ask about it, it can often be a setup six months later when whatever magical number didn't change that you weren't aware about, revenue didn't change, and then suddenly they may point to you and say, well, you didn't fix it. I'm no longer trusting you. And so by asking that up front, we can actually say, okay, let's talk about if math isn't present. That sounds like risky decision making. I am making you aware that this is a risk. If you want to move forward with that risk, that's okay by me. But I'm going to maybe provide you some insights around here's what will happen in six months. We still don't know math. We still don't know if there's some type of correlation between this work and what you're trying to get out of it. Yeah. And this is missing from the initial conversation with clients this, how should we call it? Business perspective, business mindset. So it's like, yeah, I think it's more like business situations, like business savvy, like just becoming, right? If we talk about value, are we talking about spreadsheet value or are we talking about like perceived value? What is that difference there? Of course, people can download the book, but if you had to give somebody a starting point to start to develop this new language, become more fluent, develop this vocabulary, what would be some good starting points? You know, I will say my book kind of is a gentle way to share some overview stuff, but if you are interested in the basics of strategy, how business people think about it, you can go pick up like the 10 fundamental essays of strategy that Harvard Business Review has put out. That's a good overview look and there may be some concepts in there, but YouTube is a wonderful place. If you then read that book and you see something like Michael Porter's Five Forces, not every company is using that or living by that, but if you just YouTube and go to video, there are literally hundreds of videos that just say, here's a four minute video on what five forces is. Here's a four minute video on the basics of generic strategy. There's three different generic strategies out there. I think that's a wonderful resource. It's HBR, I think it's 10 essays on strategy. It's a maroon book and it's just a general overview and what you'll find people like Clayton Christensen are in it. If you know Clayton Christensen, he is the parent of jobs to be done as a framework now, right? So there's all sorts of names that start to pop up. Yeah. And you need to, again, the book provides a very good introduction to what to start googling. And that's perfect. And I share a lot of footnotes too. It's awesome. Yeah, a lot of links, resources. At the start, you said something like, we're close or designers aren't that far away from actually getting good at this. What makes you so confident that we can do this? Well, I think as part of, you know, how we've been raised, if you will, how we've been instructed, how we've learned is I think we as designers are curious. We're comfortable with some ambiguity. We are comfortable with taking on risk. But also, I think many of us are driven to do it better, driven to have better things. And so we don't, you know, the traditional, say, design loop is like understand, reflect, and build, build or make. But when it comes to learning this, I'm going to talk about remix again, understand, reflect, and remix. Just gain a little comprehension on what your colleagues have already mastered or what they studied. You don't have to become masters yourself. You don't have to necessarily get an MBA. An MBA is good if you have the means and you have the access and the time. But if you just gain a little bit of comprehension on what they've learned, you're like halfway there. You're halfway there to just sort of say, ah, you keep using this word. I'm curious about this. This is what I understand that. Is that how you understand that? Right. And so it's just remixing what is already present. What would you, now in hindsight, I think we spend a time of 10 years, 10 plus years, something like that in this story. What is the thing that you wish you knew at the start? We'll go back to me. I think I wish I knew that I wasn't broken. It's been a very personal journey. And I've had to go through very weird situations. Like twice I've had a boss been fired within three or four months of me arriving at a company and left on my own. Those are the two things. Is that I'm not broken. I'm also not alone. You know, the first opportunity to really get exposure to that was a lovely little conference here called Design Leadership Camp run by the Bureau of Digital. And I went to the first one and it was the first time where it was designers who were now responsible for building organizations got together and we got to share like, oh wait, you have to deal with this too. You have to deal with this too. And so 10 years ago, I think you're not broken and you're not alone.  You're going to be okay. It's going to work out. Nice. That's a positive footnote on this entire conversation is you can learn this, right? It's not a mystery. Not everybody who is in business has an MBA. It's not as scary as you think. And it's not even... We cannot ignore it. It's a must. Right. If we want to deliver on the promise we have as a community, we need to get this right. We need to get this right. And I think it's beyond just if we want to deliver. It's companies need us to deliver, but really communities need us to deliver. We have an opportunity here to help organizations pivot, I think, in a lot of ways that we as citizens, as society, have the means to do so. And what that means is maybe, maybe, understanding that there's a lot of humans involved in this process. And it's... We can't just hide into our own tools to get there to get there that really to have the societal effects that we want, to have the environmental effects we want. All these things that a lot of us want requires us to then go outside of our comfort zone. We should have started the conversation with this because this is at stake, right? It is. We want to create a better world. We want to create better organizations. And that's at stake. And that should be driving us to actually get good at this. Fundamentally. I fundamentally agree. How would we summarize this conversation? I think a lot of what we've been talking about is kind of this concept of leadership. Leadership is a craft. And with any craft, you need practice and you need some access to tools that perhaps you didn't even know were there. So in many ways, it's important for you to understand that you're not alone. There are methods and resources out there for you. And the craft of leadership is something that we should take just as deliberately and intentional as becoming a service designer or becoming a graphic designer. Well, we should see it as part of being a service designer. And the... Absolutely. We always talk about the holistic perspective and the holistic view. Let's add this to the holistic perspective on what service design is and what we do as a community. Yes. I agree. Ryan, thanks so much for shining a light on what's behind the curtain of successful design, design nurse. I think that's really the goal of the service design show to show what's behind the curtain, what's underneath the tip of the iceberg below the surface of what you don't see. And I think we definitely hit upon some really interesting things. So for the people who want to learn more, go get the book. It's totally free e-book, audio book. You can read it online. Awesome start. Thanks again, Ryan. Thanks so much for having me, Mark. I really enjoyed it. If you made it all the way here, leave a comment with the hashtag commitment and let us know what is the most valuable thing you get out of this chat. If you haven't done so already, make sure to subscribe to the channel because you've made it all the way till the end. So you're apparently enjoying these conversations. Thanks a lot for watching. I appreciate your time and hope to see you in the next video.


I am in the all-terrain cane booth here with someone who introduced themselves as Sedona Dave, also known as David Epstein, and what is it you have here Dave? I've got the all-terrain cane. This is a super strong, super lightweight mobility cane designed by a blind guy, me, to stay active and hiking the wilderness trails of Arizona and everywhere else I want to be. Wait a minute, I'm sighted and I fall down on flat surfaces. You're hiking with a cane? I am, yes. It's a super strong mobility cane. It's what I need, what I feel I need on the trails. What does a mobility cane do? Obstacle detection, terrain changes, navigation. Well, what do I need hiking? The same thing, obstacle detection, terrain changes. I need to know what's on the trails, but the regular street cane just wasn't cutting it. They're made to be light and flexible and easy to pack away, but they don't do anything on the trails. They don't offer any support. They're essentially useless.  Right, they do. The joints pop out, they get stuck, they bend, they break, they shatter, and they're just not effective on the trails. Now, I need support.  When I first ran into trouble on the trails, in the middle of my orientation mobility training, the sun went down and I lost all contrast and I was not having a good time, and my wife asked me what seems to be the problem. She didn't like my poetry, and I said, well, I can't see. I lost contrast. I don't belong here. I can't do this. I need something. I need this, but I don't know what this is, and that was really the pebble that launched the avalanche to what we have today as the all terrain cane. This turned out to be a mobility cane that I can use for support, for balance, for slowing me down or breaking on the trails. As Dave is describing this, he's pushing on the cane and leaning on it, and it's flexing some, but it's not bending like a traditional cane would. Exactly. I needed this to be super, super strong. To do what the instructors tell me not to do, lean on the cane, vertically load the cane. I never do that. Why? Why not supposed to? Why? We don't know. Why? I need this. Can you describe the cane itself for people who are listening? I would be so honored to. The cane does differ from the normal street cane in many different ways. Starting from the top, we've got a 16-inch grip, not just nine inches, but 16. That allows us plenty of room for choking up, either with a cane grip or a ski pole grip for added strength and support while descending, protecting our shoulders, using our upper body for strength. The top half of the grip does have that flat section we're accustomed to. Bottom half. I don't know anything about the flat spot on the cane. You feel that flat section. That's a guide. That's for us to put our index finger on to help navigate with the cane. For feeling. Exactly. The bottom section is just a round profile, and that's good for the ski pole grip. Good positive grip. I'm not on a slippery shaft. If I need to securely hold on, I'm locked on down 16 inches. Then there's a hinge at that point. There is a hinge, but there's something else as well. At the bottom of the grip, there's a flip lock. Kind of like a traditional tripod. Exactly. It's an external lock that I open up. Now I can extend the cane from 51 inches to about 62 inches. Holy cow. That's almost as tall as you are. We call it one size fits most, but it really is one cane that can handle many different not only heights and size people, but different activities. Yeah. If you're going down a real steep terrain, you need it to be longer, right? Exactly. When they ascend on the trails, I set the cane nice and short. Why is this so awesome and unique? Well, it's an adjustable length cane, but it's also a folding cane. This is a three section folding cane. He just pulled it apart. I don't know if everyone has seen the way canes fold up, but you pull them apart like you would the tent poles do this, where you pull it apart, and it's got a flexible line. It's got a spring in it, and you pop it. He's now folded it into pretty small three pieces. Three sections, right. So we've got a three section folding extendable length cane. But the bottom of the cane is what really caught my eye when I walked up. It's red, so we've got black, white, and red. Yes. Now the bottom of the cane, the mobility canes are white and red reflective. That's how they look. That's for the sightlings. The sightlings, yes. The sighted hordes, to be able to identify it. So I made sure the cane is white and red, highly reflective. But I also chose a two-winds rolling ball at the tip. I feel that it covers mostly all trains that I'm working on. Not only smooth concrete, but the very coarse asphalt out in Arizona. My daily walk with a dog starts with the concrete, asphalt, dirt, rock. And now I'm on the wilderness trails with him. Wow. So this rotates about the axis of the cane? It does, yes. It's called a rolling ball. Two-winds. And I went with red because why not? Because why not? They don't have to be white and boring. Let's bling it up for the kids and the adults. We're actually making our cane tips in four different colors. We've got red, yellow, a beautiful sherbet pink, and a red orange. I'm really excited about those colors. Colors are fun. They really are. No need for us to be stuck in a corner or have boring canes. I've got to tell you about the materials. Super, super strong designed for vertical loading. The cane is made of a Grade 9 titanium alloy. Oh, wow. That gives it a super strength. That's expensive, though, right? It is. But why do we have canes that break? A car door can hobble us. And I find that insulting at this age of a game. So for the non-engineers in the crowd, titanium has a very high strength to weight ratio. So you could do it in steel and it could be just as strong, but it would weigh a lot. So titanium is a lot more useful. Absolutely. It keeps the weight down and the strength up. And again, it's able to handle car doors or cobblestones or anything else that's going to bend or break our canes. We need this. And this is finding its way into all the developing countries where they don't have access to great roads or great infrastructure. That's a good point. That could be just walking to go get water, not hiking. It's daily living. Just like me in Arizona, it's my everyday cane. Oh, it is. Okay. That's interesting. So if people want to learn more about the all-terrain cane, where would they go? So we go to AwareWolfGear.com and that's A-W-A-R-E-W-O-L-F-G-E-A-R.com, AwareWolfGear.com. And you can put a forward slash A-T-C in there if you want, or it'll take you right to our site where you can see our great wear, our great line of clothing, the AwareWolfGear. High visibility clothing for low vision people. Find yourself to the all-terrain cane page. Great information. We've got smoke and deals on ball packages. Very cool. This is very cool. Sedona is one of my favorite places. I'd love to see this. This is a really cool invention, Dan. Dan, David, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us. Thank you so much for your time. I absolutely appreciate it and it's great to see you here. Enjoy the rest of the show and keep crushing it. If I can send you home with a red rock from Sedona, I'd certainly love to as well. That's great fun. It's the last day. We can let them go. You don't want to carry them home. I don't want to carry them home. All right. Thanks, David. Have a great day today.