Hello in this lecture we'll talk about calculating depreciation using the straight line method. We will be able to calculate depreciation using the straight line method, create journal entry related to depreciation, explain the effect of recording the journal entry related to depreciation on assets equity net income. So in the past we have discussed talking about the recording of depreciation, meaning how do we record the journal entry for depreciation. We have not yet looked at how to calculate that depreciation in a defined way. Now we're going to talk about the calculation of depreciation but we always want to keep in mind that adjusting entry of what depreciation is. At the end of the day it's going to be reducing the cost of the equipment and recording the expense over the useful life. So keep the bigger picture in mind as we drill down into the the details of the calculation in this case. We're going to start off with the straight line method which if you were to ask someone how to solve this type of problem this would be the first method that would probably come to most people's mind. It's very common, sensical, and makes sense. So let's see what we have here. In this case we have purchase of equipment on January 1st costing $257,500, salvage value $20,000, useful life for years. First question then is the problem is this. If we expense that $257,500 in the year of purchase it will bring down net income and that could distort our net income when we compare year over year because we would have a reduction of this large purchase which hasn't been consumed yet, it hasn't been used. So in accordance with the matching principle we need to allocate that amount over the useful life and in so doing we will allocate it in such a way that net income will be more evenly affected and thereby make the comparability of the income statement a lot better. So that's the idea now. If we're going to say how are we going to do that the first thing that probably would come up to people's minds is well let's see how long this equipment is going to last and let's allocate the cost over the useful life. In essence that's going to be the straight line method. So the calculation is going to look something like this we're going to say take the cost we do have to then reduce the salvage value. So what is the salvage value? We have to $20,000 salvage value that represents the amount of money that we believe we can sell the equipment for at the end of its useful life. So if we were talking about like a forklift or something then at the end of the useful life maybe the forklift is no longer operational maybe it's completely done for operation or we don't need it but even if it's done for operation then we could still scrap it for metal or something like that that's the salvage value. So that's what we need to depreciate it down to because that is the amount that we believe that we can sell it for at the end of the useful life. So that will give us the amount that we're going to be depreciated. So what's going to happen is we bought it for this going to put it on the books as an asset here then we're going to depreciate it down to $2,375 over the useful life and if we do that then we'll be left with $20,000 which we believe we can sell it for at the end of the time frame. Once we have the amount that we want to depreciate it we're going to divide it by the useful life. In this case they gave us of course the useful life being four years and the question that's going to come to mind is going to be well how did you come up to that four years? So we're going to have to there's various ways we can think about the four years obviously we're going to have to plan out how long we believe the equipment is going to be used for and that's how we would you know come up with the useful life for an accounting purposes. Notice that the tax code will differ the tax code oftentimes will just tell us what the depreciation is in accordance with what type of category the item is in but also notice that the tax code is not necessarily geared towards the best reporting in order to make the best decisions. So the tax code is geared for other types of things such as stimulating the economy and this type of stuff and therefore there could be different types of method accelerated methods so the depreciation calculation for the taxes will be same concepts involved but could differ greatly than the depreciation for the financial statements. The depreciation for the financial statements are what we're talking about here the goal on the financial statements is to have the proper matching in order to have the best reporting in order to make the best decisions therefore the useful life should be the useful life that is most accurate in terms of what we believe the equipment will help us in the future in order to generate revenue. So if we do that division we're going to take the $137.5 divided by four we have $59.375 per year so that's what's going to happen we're just going to depreciate it by the $59.375 each year and at the end of that time period we'll have accumulated depreciation of 237.5 and the cost will remain at 257.5 leaving us with a salvage value of 20 let's see what that will look like then. If we look at a table in terms of the calculations we can think of it in terms of a table then we can think of it in terms of the trial balance and what it will look like in relation to other accounts. So if we think about it in terms of a table we know that depreciation is what we just calculated then we want to think about the book value the book value is going to be the cost less the accumulated depreciation. So we said we just calculated the 59.375 for the depreciation for this period if we calculate the book value then we are going to say that will be the cost 257.5 minus the accumulated depreciation which represents the depreciation over the useful life of the asset up to this point which of course at this point is just equal to year one being the only year that we have done so far and that will give us the book value. Notice what we are not doing is we're not just writing down the equipment itself we are actually making a new account called accumulated depreciation and the reason being is that unlike something like supplies where we actually use the supplies write down the supplies and we can see the physical deterioration in this case we know it's an estimate we know if we bought a forklift that same forklift is there after we wrote it down it's not like we have less of a forklift but we also know that the value theoretically is going to go down over time and therefore we're telling our reader it's an estimate look it's an estimate this is what I paid for it this is what it's gone down by in accordance with the estimate how did we estimate it well we'll tell you we did the straight line over four years with a 20,000 salvage value. So if we look at the journal entry then here's our same calculus here's our number in terms of a table if we think of it in terms of context of the trial balance this is a simple trial balance that we have the assets in green this is before we record the journal entry and we have assets cash counts table and then here's the accounts we're going to work on equipment accumulated depreciation and then we have a liability and the liabilities are represented by credits in this case with brackets and we have the capital we have the revenue at less the expenses and we can see that the debits that are non-bracketed minus the credits that are bracketed here are zero therefore the debits equal the credits we also see that we have a net income of 100,000 that's income not a loss how do we calculate it revenue here less expenses no expenses at this time the only expense that we're going to be looking at is depreciation so that we can see the effect in that case this net income is an is an arbitrary number we're assuming that we we earned 100,000 over this time period so that we can look at the effect on net income for the transaction that will happen also note that the equipment is on the books already at this point at 257.5 which would be a debit to 257.5 when we bought it in a credit to cash or payable when we bought the equipment so now if we look at the journal entry then you would think that if the equipment was on the books here that you would then write it down by the depreciation you would think it would reduce the equipment that's kind of what happens when we think about supplies but remember that that equipment is still on the books and therefore we don't want to write it down because we want to tell our reader hey it's an estimate i want to tell you the reader two things i want to tell you what i bought it for and we also want to tell you what we wrote it down by therefore it's kind of like we're cutting the t account for equipment into two accounts like a seven and an r so we got the seven on this side the debit half of it and then we're kind of putting the credits on another account over here and that we're going to now call a contra asset notice it's still green it's still next to all the other assets but it has a credit bounce represented by the brackets because it's really the reduction half of the equipment here all right so the uh adjusting transaction then it's going to be all adjusting transactions usually have one income statement account one balance sheet account we know the balance sheet account is going to be accumulated depreciation we know the income statement account is going to be depreciation expense in this case we know that expenses only have debit balances for the most part and expenses generally only go up so we're going to make them go up again by doing the same thing to it which is a debit increase in the expense and therefore we're going to credit the other account being accounts payable if we look at what happens when we post this journal entry here then we can see that the accumulated depreciation is going to go from zero up in the credit direction to 59 375 and we can see that the debit of 57 500 minus the accumulated depreciation 59 375 will equal the book value of the 198 125 that we calculated in our table being the book value we can see that the depreciation expense went from zero up to 59 375 what's the effect on net income well it's the 100 000 that we assume we earned before this expense less the 59 375 revenue less expenses means that income went down to 40 625 if we look at equipment purchased in uh the year two so now we're going to say year two this is the table that we already had from the prior year in year one then we're going to say the same calculation we don't need to recalculate it we know that the appreciation is the same for each year each of the four years therefore we're going to say depreciation is once again 59 375 the cost is the same the cost does not change that's what we paid for it the accumulated depreciation on the other hand is the prior year's accumulated depreciation plus the current year's depreciation expense that's one way to think about it or it's the depreciation expense over the life of the asset to this point so the 59 375 plus the 59 375 this way or the 59 375 plus the 59 375 this way in this case will give you the accumulated depreciation of 118 750 how do we calculate the book value we take the cost less the accumulated depreciation giving us the book value of 138 750 so let's look at that in terms of our trial balance so if we look at year two now this is where we started at the beginning of year two meaning that the book value is now the 257 5 less the 59 375 which is the book value here in after year one because that's the beginning we're at the beginning of year two and then we're going to post the transaction so this is the year two before this adjusting entry is recorded then the owner's equity is including all of last year's income and expenses is rolled into the capital account and then we're assuming that we earned another 100 000 in year two so this isn't the same 100 000 earned in year one it's the new 100 000 we're assuming we had the exact same earnings in year two so that we can compare year over year what has happened and what will be the effect of depreciation on it and then of course we have zero at this point in the depreciation expense notice we had to clear out the last depreciation expense to the capital account in order to start the new year so the accumulated depreciation does not go down from year to year it's a permanent account on the balance sheet the depreciation expense is going to be cleared out at the end of each period in this case the end of each year in order to start the counting again in the next year we're assuming that we earned 100 000 once again in year two as we did in year one now we're going to record the transaction and of course the transaction is the same adjusting transaction every adjusting transaction has generally one balanced account one income statement account income statement account is going to be depreciation expense depreciation expenses only go up we're going to make it go up by doing the same thing which is a debit so we're going to debit depreciation expense then we're going to credit a balance sheet account that account being accumulated depreciation and we're going to credit it by the 59 375 and so the if we look at the effect of that transaction the depreciation expense is going to go from zero up to 59 375 in the debit direction to 59 375 what's that due to net income the 100 000 minus the 59 375 is the 40 625 again it's income not a loss the brackets represent revenue credits winning on the balance sheet side the cost remains the same now we got 257 five and the accumulated depreciation went up in the credit direction for a contra asset account being an asset account that has a credit balance rather than the normal debit balance for asset accounts from 59 375 in the credit direction the same thing makes it go up so a credit and a credit made it go up in the credit direction to 118 750 the debit of the equipment the seven side of the t account minus the credit of the accumulated depreciation the other side of the split of the t account that we made will give us the book value of the 138 750 all right so then if we take a look at the next year we're going to now we're at the end of year two we this is where we were at year three we'll look much the same in the straight line method we're going to have more depreciation expense same amount on the depreciation expense the book value calculation cost will be the same cost that we've had of course and the accumulated depreciation is going to be last year's accumulated depreciation plus the current year's depreciation expense or you can think of it as the depreciation expense throughout the life up until this time so the 59 375 plus 59 375 plus 59 375 will give you the 178 125 or prior years accumulated depreciation 118 750 plus the current year's depreciation expense fits now 375 will give you the 178 125 if you subtract these out then you'll get the book value of 79 375 what you want to be careful of when the questions are asked on these types of problems is they can ask you anything they can ask you any of these numbers here they can ask you what is the depreciation expense at a current year what is the cost that's probably they probably want to ask you that as much but they could ask you what the accumulated depreciation is at any given time or what the book value is so it's often students often get good at calculating one or the other getting kind of to a shortcut so that we can calculate one piece well but oftentimes the problem is going to need all the information and therefore it might be good to set up the table in some way that you can just plug in a numbers in accordance to this and if excel of course is great for doing that if you set up an excel worksheet that basically will calculate all the stuff with minimal input for a straight line method problem then that would be very helpful all right so then we're going to say the equipment will look like this here's our table up here if we post the journal entry once again it'll look much the same the journal entry now it looks like this but if we start out year three before we post the journal entry note what it looks like we have the equipment before which is the same value we have the accumulated depreciation which was the cumulative depreciation for year two given us a book value of 138 750 before we record this and we can see that the capital count now includes the net income from the prior year once again we're assuming that we made another 100 000 in year three this is not the same 100 000 that was in year two this is what we have earned in year three assuming our performance was the same and everything other than the expenses which is we're only going to use one right here and then the the accumulated depreciation is now zero why because it got closed out last time in the closing process to the capital account so once again remember that the accumulated depreciation goes up and it never goes away until we sell the item whereas the expenses is a temporary account that gets closed out to the equity section after every period so if we record this it's an adjusting entry we're going to debit an income statement account this account being expense we're going to increase the expense because expenses generally always go up with a debit so we're going to do the same thing to it making the expense go up so we're going to debit depreciation expense and we're going to credit a balance sheet account that balance sheet account being accumulated depreciation and if we post that then we say that accumulated depreciation has a credit balance we're going to credit it making it go up in the credit direction and that is actually a contra asset account because it's an asset in with all the other assets which has a credit balance which is contra to the normal debit balance of assets and then if we calculate the book value 257.5 minus 178.125 would give us the book value 79.375 then if we take a look at the expense the expense goes from zero goes up by the debit here and goes up to 59.375 what's the effect on net income brings it down from 100,000 down to 4006.25 so let's do this one more time we're going to go to year four the final year and then we'll wrap this up so year four looks much the same we've got another expense of 59.375 the cost 257.5 is the same the accumulated depreciation is prior years to accumulated depreciation of 178.125 plus the current year's expense 59.375 given us the 237.5 or you could say it's the all the depreciation expense over the life of the property 59.375 plus 59.375 plus 59.375 plus 59.375 will give you the 237.5 book the book value then cost 257.5 less the 237.5 gives us 20,000 we've seen that somewhere before 20,000 where have we seen that that is the salvage value so remember we we thought that at the end of its useful life being four years we have now ended the useful life in accordance with our estimate then we should be able to scrap it for 20,000 so you might be asking what happens in year five if the thing is still in operation what happens if we're still using this thing next year do we keep on depreciating it because we're still using it and the answer generally is no we don't generally keep on depreciation it and it's easier to see that if we had a case where there was no salvage value so let's say that the salvage value was low or immaterial and we just said we're going to write it down to zero instead of the 20,000 in this case you can see that if we kept on depreciating it even if we're using it in the next year it would make no sense to have a asset like a forklift on the book books that's not only written down to zero but actually has a negative value it's worth negative 20,000 that would make any sense so we can't we cannot take it below the floor the floor obviously if there was no salvage value would be zero if there is salvage value the floor is the salvage value now there is a question as to whether if our estimate is so far off that it's immaterial and we need to fix it then we could have the issue of revaluing the equipment or adjusting the depreciation on it and and extending the useful life at some point but that not being the case what we'll do is we'll say okay we the estimate wasn't perfect but we but we've expensed it and what we cannot do is go past the amount of the value of the cost of the equipment we can't expense more than we paid for the equipment so if we look at this in terms of the trial balance once again we have the same thing we're in year four where we had the book value before at the beginning of the period or before the adjusting entry being the 79 375 which would be the 250 75 minus the 178 125 and note that the accumulated depreciation is accumulating upwards because it's a permanent balance sheet account as opposed to the depreciation expense which is zero before we record the transaction because we haven't because the prior transaction was closed out to the equity section is now part of this for 49 375 and of course we have net income we're assuming it's the same net income same earnings this year that we had last year again it's not the same amount of course we earned 100 000 in year three and now we're assuming we earned another 100 000 in year four just to see some context of the transaction we record the transaction looks much the same it is much the same we debit the 59 375 to depreciation expense making the expense go from zero up in the debit direction to 59 375 what happens in that income 100 000 minus 59 375 brings it down to 40 625 the accumulated depreciation goes from 178 125 up in the credit direction because we're doing the same thing to a credit and the credit makes the credit go up to 237 5 and now if we take the 257 5 less the 237 5 that is 20 000 so we can see on our trial balance that we have a book value remaining now I do want to point out that of course we're talking about one piece of equipment here and a lot of companies of course will have lots of equipment and we will so we will then have to have this number will be grouped these two numbers will group much equipment in it and we'll have to have worksheets that will basically record this depreciation and back up this depreciation schedule so this is a simplified example so that we can see the context here notice that these numbers in reality will often have lots of things involved in it and we'll have very detailed ledgers that will do the calculations of the depreciation so that it will back up these numbers and we'll often have to have of course two of them one for taxes possibly and one for the books of course and maybe even more than that depending on different tax regulations and and our needs in that case so if we look at this in terms of year over year so i'm just going to put the ending trial balance for year one year two year three year four so we can compare this and see what has happened to it we see that the depreciation on the table remains the same each year we can see that on our trial balance it remains the same each year each year we're going to depreciate the same amount we can see that the accumulated depreciation goes up at a fixed rate meaning it goes up at 59 375 each year until the last year year four in which case that's the end of it and it will not go up in year five because we have fully depreciated it down to the salvage value and we can see that of course in the table as well what happens to the book value it goes down at a constant rate so it's going down by the 59 375 in a constant rate leaving us with the salvage value of the 20 000 what happens on net income it's an even effect on net income now remember we're assuming that we assumed we earned 100 000 each year this is not the same 100 000 we're assuming that each year we performed exactly the same on the revenue and the model is showing that we only have one expense so we can see we can isolate that expense and see what would be the effect if that were the case in net income i'm obviously in reality that is in pot heaven would never happen but in the model we're earned the same 100 000 each year and the only expense we have is this depreciation so the effect is the reduction to the net income in the same fashion so we have the same net income all else the same other than depreciation the net income would be the same because we uh evenly allocated it now later that will not be the case so i'm going to show you the later calculations that we'll have this is our allocation here you can see the even allocation and the net income effect next time we're going to go into the double declining method which is the idea that we should be able to depreciate more in the first years than the last years because the equipment will be more efficient in beginning years rather than later years so there is you know some reasoning that's appropriate in this case to do this type of method so we're going to say we should be able to front load the depreciation and thereby what would that do well that would reduce the depreciation and i mean that would increase the depreciation reduce net income in the beginning years and it would increase net income in the later years so that's what we're going to take a look at next time you notice that in year one up here we have an income of 40 000 and if we use this method we got a loss of 28 750 so that's a big difference then in year two we have a gain of 35 under this method 35 625 as opposed to 40 625 then the reverse happens we have 67 8 15 under double declining and the same 40 625 and then income goes up a lot more if you look at the life of these two we end up with the same place meaning we end up with a self book value of 20 000 at the end we end up depreciating over the life of the equipment under any method we use the same 237 5 to leave us with that 20 000 but there's a big difference in when the depreciation happens we call that a timing difference so over the four-year period there's no there's no difference after the four years is over but within that four-year period there's a big difference so the question could be well why do we care why do we care about that if they're basically the same in the end and the answer is that you know there's going to be a lot of effect on our comparison of the financial statements so for the accounting purposes we want the financial statements to be as accurate as possible theoretically that's our goal so the accounting principles would say well which one of these methods are actually the most accurate and there is an argument to say that the double declining or some kind of accelerated method is more accurate because it would give us more depreciation more use in the first years than the later years but there's also some if we're talking about a tax incentive note that if we're jumping to the tax code we have the reverse incentive notice that if we're we're trying to look good which we usually assume that we want to do for financial statement purposes this makes us look bad at the beginning years and better at the ending years which for financial statement purposes is probably not as much what we want for tax purposes that is more kind of what we want because if we're able to take the deduction today we would rather get the tax dollars today and then in the future so for taxes clearly if a business had a choice which they do have less choice because the tax code you basically dictates what our depreciation options will be in a different way than generally accepted accounting principles but if we had the choice we would want to depreciate usually more in the first years than in the last year on taxes when we think about our financial statements then companies often have an incentive to look better in the current years so they might have an incentive to use a straight line method to look better in the current years but the ultimate goal of the of the financial statements is to do what is most accurate in terms of comparing year over year and there is an argument for an accelerated method being better at that now if we wanted to take more time to be more accurate we might try a different type of method than these two we might say hey why don't we use a different type of base rather than just time and it's similar to if we were trying to figure out the value of the car the depreciation of car should we just take the car and divide it by its useful life or should we use something that might be more accurate like taking the mileage of it and using mileage rather than time to depreciate the car a lot of people would say well that would be more accurate neither one of them are perfect of course but that would be the units of production we'll talk about next time in which case we'll talk about that later but in which case now we're going to say well instead of just depreciating over time let's say how much of units that this thing is going to produce so if we're talking about a printer and we know that it's going to print so many pages over its useful life that's what the warranty says then we can divide the cost by the number of pages and then we can see how many pages were printed over the certain time period and depreciate in accordance with that method which would usually be considered to be more accurate what's the problem with that method that means we got to count the pages and then and then depreciate it which is takes more time to do so so those are the pros and cons between these three note that in this example the if we did it with the more accurate method which we would assume that to be more accurate we are showing that the expenses truly are more front loaded meaning that we're getting more use out of it in the beginning years than the later years and that would kind of make sense and that would support an accelerated method so we are now able to calculate depreciation using the straight line method create journal entry related to depreciation explain the effect of recording the journal entry related to depreciation on assets equity and net income


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Welcome in to the Coach's Corner. I'm Joe Wamba joined now with Ed Hoddle, head coach of the football team, 12th ranked football team.  Yeah, it was a good weekend for us. I'd like to thank all the fans that came out. It was sell out. It was an awesome environment for the guys. And it was loud as we'd hoped it would be. And our guys responded well to the game plan and things that we had talked about and discussed all week long. And we're able to execute at a fairly high level at times. And it was enough to get a W. And I mean, the conditions played a factor. But I would say more about the control over the line of scrimmage that you guys had offensively and defensively. Delaware Valley starting fielding position, I think they were rarely on their side of the field. There was a 26-yard difference in field position. We started at the minus 48, and they started, I believe, at the minus 22. The wind played a factor in that at times. But like you said, our D-line did a great job controlling the line of scrimmage. It was something that we had looked at from the previous week and really challenged those guys. And to their credit, they responded. The challenge for them now is we've seen what they're capable of. They've got to exceed our expectations now, which is a good problem to have for us moving forward. And the commitment to that control over the line of scrimmage, those linemen forced two fumbles. Yeah, that's something that we work on constantly. And the interceptions are flashy and big. But the dirty work happens in the trenches, and the guys forcing the fumbles was nice to see. Again, I think it's a credit to the work that they put in during the week.  It could have been more. But getting those plays that did work was a success. Yeah, again, the wind took away a little bit of the vertical passing game. And the exciting thing about the offense is we did make some mistakes, and there are some things that we can work on to clean up. So I think we still have room to grow and still have room to improve as we look at the Saturdays ball game. And thinking about the Saturdays ball game going up to Kings, what does it you guys need to do to stay 1-0 this week? Again, it's focused on what we can control. It's focusing on a high level of play internally. We kind of feel like looking at our team at this point, we've got to work and strive to play the best game that we can play. And then when 60 minutes is up, hopefully we've scored enough points. All right, Coach, thank you for your time this week. He's Ed Hoddle. I'm Joe Wamba. This has been the Coach's Corner.


Good afternoon. I am Mary Keena, the livestock environmental management specialist at the Carrington Research Extension Center, and I am here today for the horse mortality management. And that is going to be one of four in our spring 2022 horse management series that we're doing. And so with me today, of course, are my co-host Rachel Wald and Paige Brummond. And so Rachel and Paige were instrumental always in making this happen. And so they'll be in the background, making sure that we keep you guys on mute until the end. So we'll unmute you at the end if you want to ask questions, you're more than welcome to. Otherwise, it just keeps things flowing a little faster. And then, of course, you can always type your questions into the chat and they'll make sure and let us know what's going on there. So today we're talking about horse mortality management. And I also then have a guest with us today who has not talked on one of our webinars yet. So we're really excited to have Krishona Martinson with us today. So Krishona is the professor and extension program leader at University of Minnesota in equine in horse management. And so we're really excited to have her with us today. So how it's going to go is I'll start out and and then Krishona will take over and we'll do questions at the end unless Rachel or Paige think there's something to interrupt us for. Before we get rolling. I just want to say hi, we're just really excited to be back with you guys. It's been a year, and we've talked to you a couple times in between just sending you a couple things here and there to let you know that if you have questions, we're more than happy to answer them but it's been pretty quiet. And so we're just really glad you're back and we see a lot of I'm looking at the names list right now and we see a lot of people that are are common and have been here before so that's really exciting. So with that, like I said my name is Mary Keena and I will talk about horse mortality management today so I'm going to start out with just what the approved methods for disposal are are in North Dakota. And so I will talk about that and then we'll roll into a more specific method composting with Krishona. So approved disposal methods for livestock carcasses in North Dakota include rendering incineration burial composting landfilling. Burning is also an option however we try to use that only in specific situations. And so you can see there's some situations up on the presentation here. Most often though we try to stick with the ones that are on the left hand side of the slide. So the law states in North Dakota that animals that die for any reason must be disposed of an improved method within 36 hours of death. Something that we do want to avoid so again the burning is technically something that we can do however it's really low on the list of things that our regulators want us to do and so we try to avoid open air burning if we can. We also try to avoid the small city inert landfills. So the smaller ones there are larger ones that are licensed to take livestock mortalities. And so we try to go to those instead. And then of course carcass abandonment. So, leaving an animal carcass out on a section line on a rock pile in a field, basically abandoned is illegal. And so we should not do that. Okay, so we'll just step through a couple of these really quick what they are. And then like I said at the end we'll go into what composting is so rendering. Rendering is a process of converting animal carcasses the pathogen free useful byproducts such as as feed protein so what happens is is exposed to really high temps and pressurized steam. So, the process used to be really, really common. Now it's more so common, maybe more in the south, but in North Dakota and parts of Minnesota, there are rendering trucks that work with our butcher shops. And so we don't actually have rendering that go around and pick up livestock carcasses, unless it's a very specific situation. Incineration is another option for disposal. And so incineration, some people say incineration when they actually mean open air burning. Incineration, however, is an actual technique that uses basically it's like thermal destruction with a high fuel so like propane diesel natural gas. However, the difference between open air burning and using an incinerator is there are actually filters on this unit that make sure they're filtering out some particulates and keeping the air clean and so that's the difference. Incinerators tend to be pretty expensive, expensive to put up expensive to maintain and then you have to have certain permits to use them. And so oftentimes, when they are put up we do have a couple incinerators in the state. Most of them are like the veterinary diagnostic lab for instance uses an incinerator, but that's a constant use whereas some of our other operations I've put them in and have since gone to composting because it's actually easier for them to maintain that. Burial is another option, pretty common, especially pretty common here it's a little hard to do when the ground is frozen unless you pre prepared for that. And oftentimes, you in the horse community, we're not really pre preparing for that because we we don't typically have a lot of mortality happening. And so burial at certain times of the year is a little easier than other times of the year. If we are going to bury we do want to make sure that we're four feet above the groundwater table and then we put four feet of cover on top of that carcass. So that's the key there. And then I talked about municipal solid waste sites and so there are 13 of them in North Dakota. And, and we have a list of those in case you're wondering what they are. Now, I say 13 but individual landfills can actually accept or reject on their own terms. And so it's really important to call beforehand one to make sure they'll accept and to see what their protocol is for receiving that. And then composting. And so composting of course is a naturally occurring process. It's, it's advantages over other methods include lower costs easy to prepare piles. We, I call it above ground burial, because we don't have to dig a hole to do this. And so I'm not going to elaborate on this process I'm going to let persona do that but just composting is something again that basically we're breaking down that animal carcass and the basic elements. So just some quick rule of thumb for site selection whatever you're doing if you're burying if you're going to compost, if we're going to just some things to think about when we're looking for our sites. So, no gravel pits, no sand pits, no excavation areas, no flood plains, nothing that is within specific feet and so on here it's 200 feet it really depends on your state and what your rules are of private water wells public waterways. And so, we want to make sure and then of course, we have to be a certain distance away from streams and lakes. Soil type is also something that we want to keep in mind so sandy soils rapid permeability, more opportunity for leaching clay soils slower permeability less opportunity for leaching. Okay, so with that, we will leave the resources until the end and this will be available for you online. We're going to go ahead and switch to persona. That was a fantastic introduction, just two options that horse owners have for park is disposal and you know, I'm really pleased to be here with NDSU I think NDSU is going to hold a special place in my heart. My oldest daughter right now is highly likely going to NDSU to major in nursing and take advantage of some of the horse opportunities there mostly college rodeo so I think I will be visiting NDSU a lot in the next coming years. So, this is a collaborative project that we have worked on that really kind of necessitated out of a huge need in Minnesota in our horse industry. All of you realize that horses are really unique to other livestock they have a much longer lifespan than cattle or sheep.  So that means that there's 100,000 horses that you know die annually that we need to properly dispose of that carcass. So we've already went through these rendering burial incineration and composting in Minnesota landfill is sort of only allowed through the rendering process. But interestingly enough, the reason this project started was about three or four years ago, one of our largest render sent out a letter to all of our vet hospitals, saying that they were no longer taking chemically euthanized horses, or horses that had been injected with for example like sodium pentobarbital. Well, that's a huge issue in the horse industry because a lot of our survey work shows that about 85 to 90% of horses are chemically euthanized because they're not going into the food system, you know, like cattle and hogs and poultry are. We talked about the complications with burial and in northern climate incineration is costly. And really the biggest thing that people kind of veer away from with composting is just that it's simply and you know it's not familiar. I just want to take a moment. If you guys have any questions at any time, please ask them and Mary and Rachel and page just just unmute and interrupt me because sometimes the question is best sort of addressed. You know, while we are there so please ask questions throughout I'm happy to be interrupted. So what we did is first we actually did a survey to see if horse owners would even be interested in it we looked at horse owners and veterinarians. Then we actually composted horses both in the summer. In the fall, not really winter but more summer and fall composting work had been done previously but a lot of it had been done in Florida and obviously the climate in Minnesota and North Dakota is vastly different than Florida. And I wasn't even sure if we could compost horses during the winter months for example. So what we did is we did two surveys one for veterinarians and one for horse owners and we had a great response to the surveys. Surprisingly the horse owners that are represented in the gold text, you know, 86% of them preferred the horses were chemically euthanized followed by burial. The veterinarians again 84% you know preferred chemical euthanasia and 45% of them preferred burial in only five or 10% had ever even considered composting. So, when, when we asked okay you've considered it but have you actually used it very few people had used it, and we dug into deeper why people were looking. So, we do have a commercial facility, but the biggest thing is they simply weren't familiar with it. And it makes sense right we have this beloved horse, in many cases, it has passed, and it's hard to, especially in those first few months after to think about what to do. So, the other thing that we found interesting is that people would be almost eight and a half times more likely to try composting if they knew there was research to stand behind it, and they would be almost two times more likely to try composting if they were just familiar with it. We're an extension in all of us here in extension, and that is part of our job to do research and then disseminate the results so I thought huh. I can do this I happened to meet one of the composting gurus Mark Hutchinson at a meeting in Maine, and he had a demonstration of horses being composted, and I thought you know this is something we can do and I think could be adopted in the horse industry. Before I move on to the actual composting process. I just want to make sure there aren't any questions. Alright, and Irene, I'm glad I'm glad that the composting has worked well for you. So, what we did with our research is we composted horses both in the spring and the fall I have to admit. I was a little hesitant to actually start in December which would be true Minnesota North Dakota winter. So I started it kind of took the easy way out I started the end of September. So it was really fall we composted horses both in the fall in the spring. And honestly our results are really similar so I'll just share the fall one with you. So we recruited four horses that were going to be euthanized anyways for terminal medical reasons most of them were advanced age and lameness. So they were euthanized the end of September. In Minnesota we have to compost on an impermeable pad. So we chose to just lay a concrete pad down in a rural agricultural area. And you can see these are the four individual mounds each one has a horse in. There's no fence, no cover. When composting is done right, there isn't smells or isn't scavengers being attracted. It was just out in an agricultural area. And again, I don't know Mary if you want to share does North Dakota have any regulations for an impermeable an impermeable pad when you're composting. So ours is more so just the soil type and so clay soils are preferred and best here. Yep. All right, great. So how we started it again this we I actually teach a horse management class so these are some of the students that were in that fall semester. They were helping with it. Mark Hutchinson is a gentleman in the gray shirt in the brown pants. And what we did is we made a playground we just use playground wood chips that you would see whatever playgrounds you would go to with your kids perhaps. And these to be about a foot and a half deep so 18 inches deep, and these pads look really big until you lay the horse on them so they were about 15 feet by about 15 feet. And the playground wood chips are really important you don't want to pack them down or step on them. You want them to be the carbon source because you also want them to be the air source so they want to be light and fluffy. So we are very careful not to step on them and kind of bring up those sides to measure 18 inches. Next we added three bags of pine shavings like you would use for a stall, simply because when the car when the carcass does start to decompose there is some liquid that that will come out of the carcass. And this just helps absorb the liquids we don't have any leachate coming from that pile. The next thing we did is for some biological activity we simply used beef feedlot pack it was from a local beef farm or they've been with corn stock fails, and then horse stall waste which was mostly apples and some shavings.   Next we laid the horse down, and you can see that pile looks really big and tell the horse is on it. And because we want air flow, you really need about two feet all the way around the horse, including its legs. We have the wood chips, shavings, a little bit of manure and then the horse. And then we simply covered it with two feet of that same exact manure mixture that mixture of horse stall waste and cattle feedlot. And again, the biggest thing is to go two feet and try to leave some of that those playground wood chips exposed so air can get up and get through that pile.  So because this was a research project. It's really important to monitor the temperature of a compost pile. So we had these awesome little data loggers that connected right to my phone so I could get within maybe 50 feet of the pile and I could download the data. They were placed in that depth of 18 inches so kind of measure the outer temperature, and then one was placed at 36 inches right on the horse's body so we placed the, the temperature sensors, then we put the manure on top of the horses. People will really concerned that we'd have a lot of scavenging wildlife so we did install a trail camera, just to capture any activity that we could have in our temperature was recorded every eight hours for the full six months that we composted the horses. We didn't turn the piles at day 15 I'll share why, and then at the conclusion which was either six or seven months depending on the time of year. When we turn the piles and at the end we did sample the compost for sodium pentabarbital to look at that euthanasia solution throughout the process. We also scored the carcasses. There was a student that develop a carcass degradation score and it's listed here on a scale of one which is large amounts of flesh and hide and hair down to five which is none of that present and only a few large brittle bones. So this was this was the scale that we used. When we get into some of the results, temperature is incredibly important. So here, we have the, the average of our fall composting with all four piles average together we have temperature, and then we also have days after constructing or starting the compost. The little line is the 36 inch depth so that is on the core of the horse and that 18 that 18 inch depth is further out. Now in the state of Minnesota and Mary I love your input for a carcass to be considered fully composted. We have to have two heat cycles where the pile main reaches 130 degrees Fahrenheit and is maintained for seven to 10 days. And two of those heat cycles, the pile is considered composted. So Mary, what's it like in North Dakota. Okay, so we don't have any statutes like that, but we do when we're teaching follow very similar advice. And so we like the over 130 for seven to 10 days for all the reasons you are going to say. So, you can see that, you know, at that day zero when we constructed those piles, you can see immediately within two to three days those piles reached 160. It's really important we want the piles to be between 104 and 150 or 49 degrees. That is those thermophilic conditions where those microbes really react and really break down that carcass. And now our piles did get a little hot. But again, they recovered nicely and you can see why we turned the piles at day 50. You can see there's just that gradual decrease in temperature. And the temperature is created when those microbes are reproducing and kind of digesting the carcass. So, as they sort of run out me they don't have legs right they really can't they're not mobile. So, you know they need to be stirred and kind of redistribute redistribute the nutrients in that pile. So we could tell that we had already reached our 130 degrees we had sustained it but our temperature was slowly decreasing we knew we needed to turn the pile. So at day 50 we pulled it, we turned the piles and you can see almost instantly it went back up and sustained in that hundred that 104 to 149 degrees. So technically, according to the statute in the state of Minnesota our piles were fully composted within 10 weeks. And Krishna I'm going to pause you there for just a second and just say point out isn't it really interesting and so when you look at about day 15 close to 20, it naturally brought itself down, but then it spiked itself right back up. And so that can be any number of reasons maybe there was a little bit of a breeze that day.  And so it's really neat to see we do see that increase again at 50 because we manually made that happen. But at the 20, 10 to 20 day there it naturally just spikes and goes down and spikes and goes down. Yeah. Yeah, that that's a great, you know, that's a great observation. You're absolutely true. I will say that at day seven with a carcass sort of collapsed. There was some cracking in the top of our pile and we did put one more skid load or Bobcat scoop of that manure mixture. Because remember that manure mixture is going to form a crust. And that is what is going to keep those volatile acids or those smells inside the pile, because it's the smells that attracts scavengers. So again, we did cap it when that carcass collapse and we anticipated that happening. Now we did leave our piles go for six to seven months simply because we know during that cooling phase or really that day 100 to day 210 or you know whatever that is. We still know that there is some brittling of the bones that is happening during that time and that was important for us to see happen. So when we look at the carcass gradation score. So here are individual piles. An individual saying adding animal to the pile. For example, you would put the body of the second horse kind of nestled in between the legs of the horse. But because this was a research, we treated these piles as a replicate. So we looked at them individually. So you can see the weights of the horses that were in each pile. The degradation scores on day 50 were twos and threes and the degradation scores at the end were threes and fours. Remember for is no higher hair present. The flesh was completely degraded and only the large bones remain. It is interesting that the smaller carcasses were more degraded than the bigger carcasses. So I'm going to show some pictures. The inside of one of the piles at day 50. Now, if any of you are like me, I always thought it'd be fun to be an archaeologist. And I was expecting to see like little horse bones kind of laid out. And when we opened the pile, there was nothing. This is the middle of the pile after 50 days in compost. Do any of you see anything. No, you can maybe see some little skin colored flesh towards the bottom left of that picture.  But this was it. At the end of day 217. That's what we had it looked like a combination of manure that had more wood chips in it. And then our final product you can see is right here. Now, the largest bones were not completely brittle or gone after 217 days. But all that was left of the four horses is pictured in the right the larger bones remain the pelvis, the skull, the femur and some of the larger ribs. Now, if you were going to continue composting you could put those bones back into a larger pile. Or about you know back into an active pile. We simply chose to bury those few bones that remained. So what about the magic question what about the sodium pentobarbital. So, this is a huge issue is an issue that really only impacts the horse industry, because our other large animals and our other livestock into the food chain so it's never given sodium pentobarbital they are humanely slaughtered and into the food system in the US our horses don't have that fate. So here are the individual piles and here is the amount of sodium pentobarbital on day 50. You can see it ranges from 6.5 to 2.5. I'm really wondering what does this mean. Well, because this is a relatively new issue where we've had some restrictions on rendering at least in Minnesota. We do not have any recommendations for minimal amounts of sodium pentobarbital that is accepted in the industry. Again, it's an only a horse issue or primarily a horse issue. So we do not know if this is high, medium or low. However, we know in the literature that there's when you look at scavenging birds, farm dogs, things that have been secondarily poisoned accidentally by consuming an improperly you know, buried or disposed of carcass. We know that the lethal dose of sodium pentobarbital for a dog is 85 micrograms per gram, and you can see we are not even close. So, we don't think this is an issue, but there are no guidelines that we can use to confirm this. We also know that when land applied to an agricultural field, the soil microbes will continue to break down any sodium pentobarbital. And if we look at day 217, just because we can detect it doesn't mean it's a problem we can still detect it but in very, very small amounts. So based on working with our Board of Animal Health, our Department of Ag, and just our collective scientific minds on the project, we very confidently applied this land applied this to an agricultural field that was going into small grains, and we didn't have any issues. Yes, we can still detect the sodium pentobarbital, but no, we do not think it will cause an issue. So what about scavengers? So, you know, this is, these are images from our wildlife cam. Yes, we had crows and we saw maybe some evidence of some digging and we saw a fox or wolf or whatever that is. It's probably a wolfish thing. But you know, we did not have any piles that were disturbed. There weren't bones drug around there wasn't a lot of, you know, there just wasn't wildlife activity, mostly because our piles were properly formed. In that crust, there wasn't smells and you can see in the back of this color picture, there is a very large home, and I don't even know if they knew what was happening at this site. So again, we just didn't have issues with smells or flies or scavengers but again our piles were monitored and properly composted. So I wanted to leave time for lots and lots of questions. But one thing is that because this was a research grant, a large part of it was designated to really educating horse owners on the possibility that composting can be a viable option for carcass disposal. And quite honestly in many parts of Minnesota, for some people it's the only option, especially if you can't bury the horse has been euthanized the renderer won't take it, and if it's the middle of February right there's just, you just don't have a lot of options anymore in some parts of the country. This is especially true as you move towards the east coast. So we have a lot of resources currently available that are freely available. We have YouTube videos and how to construct and manage a compost pile. We have two more that talk about frequently asked questions and land applying it. We have infographics that are pictured here, which sort of outline how to build that pile so you can see in those, you know that playground wood chips the, the sawdust, or the, you know, the stall shavings, the manure the horse and then more manure and it gives dimensions that we recommend for that average thousand pound horse. Obviously if you have a pony it can be slightly smaller if you have a draft it's going to be bigger. We have website articles and also our scientific manuscript on this project was actually just accepted this week. We also do offer a fee based course in January. It's a six week certificate course that people can take it off to a certificate of course completion that walks you through this process more in depth and maybe covers some of the maybe potential issues that somebody could face. So, the take home message is we know that owners and veterinarians are open to composting because of our survey data, but they wanted scientific information to back the process, and they wanted educational resources and I hope that we've provided that to the best of our ability. We know that composting can be used as a primary disposable carcass disposal practice in the horse industry we know that it's commonly used in the swine industry and poultry industry, especially unfortunately as we have high path, going through both of our states and the US right now. We know that it's friendly for the environment we know that our state agencies support it. There are some still questions that remain about sodium pentobarbital. But again, just because you can detect something doesn't mean it's going to be a problem, but we have applied for a follow up research funding to further explore that option. And then of course our educational materials are freely available except for the online course which is a fee based course but everything else is freely available, mostly online. So, funding for this project was provided by our rapid egg response fund. And of course, we just want to thank everyone that helped carry it out. So, Mary with that, I'm going to stop sharing so that we have more time for questions. We can always go back I can show you images if we need to, but I do just, you know, I just want to make sure that we have plenty of time for questions and for you to add what you see in North Dakota. Yeah, thanks that was awesome first congratulations on the manuscript that is a feat. So that's awesome that it's going to be out there more in the research community as well now. Yep. And then second I just have to echo a couple of things you said and so the first one would be the base. I am realizing more and more, the longer I do this that that is one of the most important parts of composting. We tend to think that each step is the most important right because we work with it a lot but if you start with a really good base, you're going to have better success. And so just echoing everything Krishna said there. Something else that I picked up on and want to just reiterate is the smell. So people ask me a lot so we compost mostly a lot cattle at our center. However, it doesn't matter what kind of livestock we're composting people always ask like doesn't it stink. And I'm like, okay. If you open it up and you have a degrading carcass. You're going to smell something right, but most often and like you said, it's most often the manure the spoiled silage the oldest stillers the bulking material that we use that actually stinks more because the carcasses broke down. By the time we open it the carcasses broke down already to the point where that smell is no longer an issue. And so does it smell sure it's not a little bit if you get too close and step on it you'll stink a little. But does it stink like a carcass that has been abandoned out on a section line. No, not at all. There are just a couple thoughts. I think we're talking. And so we can have other people ask questions so you guys if you want to unmute turn on your cameras unmute you're more than welcome to this is meeting format and so we would welcome you to do that otherwise you can always type them into the chat or send them privately to Rachel or page or I and, and we can answer them. I have a question. We know that we stated the level of toxicity for pentavarvotel for dogs. Is it known for other scavengers I'm thinking wildlife like skunks raccoons box birds, smaller animals. Yeah so page that is a great question. I included that example for dog because that is what has been reported in the scientific literature. I am unsure if it's been reported for scavengers, but obviously it's probably on a per body weight type, you know, scale. I would assume it would be less simply because I think that was like for your average 40 pound dog, and I don't know what birds of prey or eagles way but probably 510 1520 pounds depending on the bird. So it would probably be less. But that's a great question and I don't know the exact answer but if any of you know, please share. One question I thought of well while you were talking about so when you turn that pile on, and you get it ready to be in its next heat cycle do you need to add more of that manure to the top to create that crust again. Yeah, oh Rachel that's a great question so we did not add more, but you do have to kind of put your, you know, strong girl pants on or whatever. So there's going to be bones and stuff that stick out, you have to take those and sort of tuck them into the pile. It doesn't bother me, but not everyone would have the stomach for that, especially if it was your own personal horse. So we did not have to add anything but we did have to tuck those larger bones into the middle of the pile, just so that they weren't sticking out to potentially attract a scavenger. But even at day 50, most of the meat that would be on the bone that would attract a scavenger had already been decomposed or already been composted off the bone. And in fact, in animal science and veterinary medicine teaching getting bones is a very expensive thing. And because the compost did so well. A lot of those bones that you see in the picture were actually saved for teaching purposes because they were so well composted there wasn't any hide or meat left on those bones and they could use them just for teaching. And that is something Krishona you had mentioned that you guys buried some of the bones or that's an option. Another option in North Dakota and several other states too and probably Minnesota as well as if they're white bones. And so they're clean they're dry all of the there's nothing left on them it's just the white bone by itself, you can put them in the dumpster. Yes, well, this was on a wonderful farmer collaborate. There's a lot of hay and he's like you know I just can't have clients, you know, opening up a bale of hay, and having you know a femur in there. But you know that is one thing I was sort of anticipating that those larger bones would be brittle after six or seven months and they weren't yet. I don't from people that I've talked to that takes about a year to get those larger bones brittle so if you ran it through a nurse spreader or slinger, or something it might kind of shatter them or you wouldn't see them, but they, they were not. They were clean, but they weren't brittle yet at that point. So the customer nurse haulers that I work with in North Dakota really prefer no bones, going through their spreaders, especially. So, like I said, most of the time, if we're composting a horse, or a horse has died, it's almost always older. They tend to be a little more brittle. If it's a cow or a bull, most of time, they would be a little bit younger maybe or feedlot calf. And so their bones are calcified but stronger than something that's a little bit older. And so they're almost like rocks, sometimes going through my guys spreaders. And so if we can sort them out, that's great. And oftentimes people will say, Well, I don't want to sort them out. I don't really want to spread this. And so for us, that's okay. And I think it's Christian had mentioned we just open it up. And you can put another mortality in there. Or you can start another pile and put those bones back in, just to give them another heat cycle. This was done during COVID. So my children who are in high school, they were recruited. And the one loved being the bone collector.  And I think it's worth mentioning too that even, you know, if you don't want to go and tuck those bones back in to finish the compost pile, it would be an option to take some more manure or that nitrogen source and kind of build on top of that pile. Sometimes that's easier for people to do if they have access to that material. Is there any thoughts or concerns? For sure, it doesn't all have to be positive, right? If there's a concern in the group, we're happy to try to address that too. Or if anyone is thinking that you might want to try this in the future, you're more than welcome to comment. This is Irene. And when we did the composting, it was kind of, it was a family chores, been in the family for 36 years. And they did not want it rendered. They wanted to keep it forever. So what we did was we did the, just pretty much what you said, except that we didn't get enough on the bottom days. We didn't make big enough. And thank goodness it was a smaller printer. But we had leakage around the outside. So then we took the, this was kind of a covert matter. We didn't tell anybody what we were doing, but they were avid gardeners. And so we sort of like had two compost piles going, their gardening compost pile and the beloved friend. And, but we took the more of the pine and recovered the bottom, like the bottom two feet we put to absorb the moisture. And then they did, they were avid, apology people. And they did want, they did want the skull. So we went in twice to find it the first time it still wasn't ready. So we went in the second time and found it. And in that process we turned it. Now, I don't know if turning it fully would have done better. And it really wasn't an issue because in the end it was their flower bed. And it really, it really was emotionally fulfilling for the family to have this beautiful flower bed. And I was wondering, in retrospect, if making it into the flower bed would cause it to decompose more thoroughly over time. And I'll let you go with that. Yeah, you know, Irene, I think that's a beautiful story, right? We hear people say that they like composting because they feel like they can keep control of that horse throughout that process. And I think making it into a flower bed is a wonderful idea. And of course, the longer that pile is managed. And if you have things growing, it's going to continue to decompose those bones and make them eventually brittle and they'll just go away. You know, I think to truly manage it, you'd have to turn it. And I don't know how much tillage is done in that flower bed, even if it's just hand-wise. If you're planting annuals, maybe, but perennials, you're probably not disturbing it as much. But it's definitely a great way to honor the horse and to have a, you know, a friendly way to manage that carcass. I know Irene mentioned some issues with that kind of bottom layer, not having enough. And I saw that you had both the wood chips and the corn stover. Oh, oh, yeah. Corn stover is an option on there. Would the corn stover or those corn stalks and hay work or what other options are there? Those are kind of the best ones. Yeah, Rachel, that's a great question. So that is the second research project that we are trying to get. We know that in a rural area, wood chips or, you know, playground wood chips are sort of inexpensive and hard to come by commodity. So we do believe that corn stover or corn stalks will work just as well. They have been used in other species, but not horses. So we have no reason to know that they won't work. But of course, we like to test it in the specific species. We are concerned that things like hay are like older hay or kind of maybe not great quality hay, rained on hay or straw. But because it compacts so much, there won't be enough airflow and that it won't work as well, or at least that's what's been deserved in other species. So it needs to be kind of light and fluffy. So the corn, the corn stalk veils, the corn stover, or the wood, the playground wood chips are probably your best bet. And we would probably shy away from things like yard clippings and, you know, leaves that you pick up in the fall and old hay and straw, mostly because it's going to compact. But again, that is exactly what we're looking at in our next research project that we, we haven't started that yet. But that's exactly what we're looking at for the exact reasons that you just mentioned. We're not really sure what will happen. We think we know, but I've been doing research long enough where I no longer think anything because I'm usually wrong. Chris, it looks like there's a question in the chat, would cedar wood chips work, or would they contain a chemical which would suppress composting. So that is a great question that I don't know the answer of but let's just think out loud for a second. So, I don't think the type of wood chips matter. I would not want wood chips that are treated with anything in case that would lead, you know, to killing off those microbes in some weird things. So for example, you know, like around my landscaping at my house I have those wood chips that have been sprayed red, right, like I probably wouldn't want to use those number one they're even more expensive. And I don't know how that spray would interact with the microbes. So I don't think the type of wood that you're chipping matters. But I wouldn't want anything added in. But Mary, maybe you know more about that question. No, I don't have anything specific either but I would agree. So we consider this a natural process right and so the more quote unquote natural we can be with it, I think the better results will get and so I think sticking with something that like you said is not treated, and also, ultimately, we don't know what we're going to end up doing with it all the time. So sometimes we go to flower beds, sometimes we plant trees, sometimes it says there and sometimes we spread it. And because of that, because we're not sure exactly what we're doing, sticking away from stuff that may have some kind of some kind of chemical contamination is probably best. And I know sometimes are if we're using straw, if we're using corn stock sometimes that stuff hasn't sprayed as well. And so there we're more concerned about a residual from that spray, maybe hurting our plants that would grow. So that's a whole other line to think about and we, we do have some information about that as far as chemical residual and how long that stuff lasts. Yeah, so, and I know Mary you guys have a lot of great resources I just shared our one that is specific to this process in the chat. And I was actually trained as a weed scientist so that herbicide, I know that herbicide residue question is a really great one and one you really need to consider. If you're using hay or straw, especially if your end product is a nursery or a garden, or even a soybean field for example, you know you just have to watch anything that would be a broad leaf and just kind of know what those stocks were sprayed with. And yes that's a great resource that Krishna shared. And so I will email that out when I email the recording out. And of course if you guys have any follow up questions from this you're more than welcome to send them to page Rachel and myself. We can always get those questions to Krishna if we can't answer them for you. And so we're happy to continue the conversation. If you have something that comes up later.


Let's present the Pacific story. In the Mounting Fury of World Conflict, events in the Pacific are taking on ever greater importance. Here is the story of the Pacific and the millions of people who live around this greatest sea. The drama of the people's whose destiny is at stake in the Pacific War. Here, as another public service, is the tale of the war in the Pacific and its meaning to us and to the generations to come. Bangkok. There is a nervous man in Thailand these days. His name is Ruan Gavit Abhuwa. He is Premier of Thailand. He is a long way from the bombings of Bangkok. But he's nervous anyway. He's pacing back and forth like this at his place at Petchaboon, the new capital of Thailand, 190 miles northeast of Bangkok. Yes, it is coward. I have a dispatch for you. Bring it in. It is from Bema. Yes. The message says that the British forces in Bema, driving toward the Thailand border, have taken important positions at Kalao and east of Tunggu. They're getting closer to us. Is there anything else, sir? No.  No, sir. The guards are still at their posts? Yes, sir. And they're all armed? Yes. Good. Good. Is there anything else, sir? No, no. That's all. That's all. But it isn't even the British advance on the western frontier of Thailand that makes Luang Gavit Abhuwa nervous. It's something more immediate than that. He remembers what happened to the last Premier. Stop that man. Stop him. He tried to assassinate the Premier. Stab him. Luang's people sangram. Are you all right? Yes. Yes, I think I am. Let me help you. Here. No, no, no. I'm all right. He left me. How fortunate. How fortunate. Come. Let us go at once. Yes. Yes, by all means. Let us go. I didn't see him until he aimed the gun at me. The man with the gun escaped in the clouds. This is the third time they have tried to assassinate people sangram. He's the underground. That's who it is, the underground. Next time, people sangram may not be so lucky. The underground has sworn to kill those. Gavit Abhuwa, the man who finally took people's sangram's place as Premier, is nervous. He has a good memory. Siam herself cannot present any danger to Indochina, but the day she enters into an alliance with Japan, every safety to Indochina will vanish. That's what some Frenchman interested in Thailand's next door neighbor, Indochina, said 30 years ago. Siam is the door to British Maria, to British Burma, and to French Indochina. Siam now aims to overthrow the yoke of European powers. The fact that an important Japanese said this was significant. That should have been a warning to us, for we were not under the yoke of any European power. We had been independent for 600 years. It's all clear to Gavit Abhuwa now that his country is occupied by the Japanese, and may soon be a battleground. We of French Indochina were not apprehensive about what was happening in Thailand until Luang Peeble's sangram became Premier in 1938. Gavit Abhuwa remembers the Bangkok of that time. He remembers the court dancers performing in the Plaza of the Royal Palace. I have never seen anything so enchanted. These court dancers are trained from childhood, such grace, and such subtle beauty. The dancers have been performing before the Royal Palace like this for centuries. What a setting this is. Why it's almost unreal. The palace here is almost exactly in the center of Bangkok. They say that no matter where you enter our country, you always come to Bangkok, and you always come here to the Royal Palace. Gavit Abhuwa was proud of Bangkok's old charm. That's the Maynam River there. What a colorful river. Are they in hospitals? Yes. Many thousands of our people live in boats like that all of their lives. You see, not so many years ago, Bangkok was almost entirely a city built on pantounes or on pile. There still seems to be almost an entire network on canals. Yes, and most of them join with the Maynam River here. How far is Bangkok up the river? About 20 miles. Look at that. The motor boats pull those trains off smaller boats in from the villages up and down the river. Oh, they're hauling vegetables and fruits. They bring them into the marketplaces. And look at that man in that tampang. Yes. You see how it's perfectly he sculls that boat. Wonderful. Man have been sculling boats like that over these waters for centuries. Look at all of them up there. Yes.  What sort of an individual is that one he's talking to? The one with the yellow flowing robe? Oh, that is a monk. There are many of those here in Bangkok. See them down there in the street? Oh, yes. They are from the shrines. Look at all those vertical banners hanging in the streets. Those are the business houses of the Chinese merchants. Chinese merchants? Most of the merchants are Chinese. Their shop just seemed to fill the streets. The streets are so narrow. This is the old quarter of Bangkok. We also have the modern section. Govitep hui wang was as proud of the new sections as the old. This is one of our modern boulevards. You see, we have automobiles and cinemas just as you have in America. And that park over there was muddled after one of your city parks in America. And Govitep hui wang was proud of Bangkok's industries. This is our big match factory. It is the biggest of its kind out here. And we also have an armament factory and several others. The Bangkok that Govitep hui wang remembers impressed all who saw it. Forgive me for not writing sooner. But I have been so captivated by the charm of this unbelievable city that I must confess I have neglected everything else. It takes hold of you. The streets team with fascinating people. I have watched them in the marketplaces and on the rivers and canals and against the dramatic settings of the Siamese architecture. And there is a spirit about the city that is wonderful. Bangkok doesn't look in the least like Paris, but it makes you think of it. The people who come to Bangkok don't like to leave. And every one in the back country hopes and wishes to come here. The climate is so silvery that I seem to have little of my usual energy. And yet I keep going avid to see all that there is to be seen. Today I went out to the Daom Mong Airport north of the city. And only here did I find a disquieting note. I got the feeling that Daom Mong Airport in some way foreshadowed the end of all I have seen and the starting of a new and safe... A new epoch was in the wind. Japanese were filtering in. In the middle 30s, there was only a handful of Japanese in Bangkok. By 1938, there were many hundreds. Maybe several thousand. And one of these was the Japanese who made the significant observation that Thailand was the doorway to all the adjoining countries. And by 1938, the Wang Peeble Sangram was premier and was listening with both ears to Tokyo. Kovit Abhui Wong remembers all that. And he remembers how he, with thousands of others, cheered Peeble Sangram. Peeble Sawat means the same as Hail Peeble, which Peeble Sangram ordered said the same as Hitler ordered Hail Hitler said in Europe. People had come up with military ranks. Major, Colonel, Minister of Defense, then Field Marshal, and now, Premier. There is an army, Kovit Abhui Wong, of which we can be proud. Yes. Sixty thousand well-trained and well-equipped troops the finest army Thailand has ever had. Yes, sir. And look, look at those airplanes. Yes, sir. Those planes are as modern as any in the world. I've seen them out at Dongmong Airfield. The training school we have at Dongmong Airfield will be the heart of the new Siamese Air Force. Yes, sir. It is the salute of our warships in the river. We now have gun boats, destroyers, torpedo boats, and more than 5,000 men in our Navy. Impressive. Is it not? Yes, but, young People's Songram, what value is a force so small as ours? No matter how well-trained and well-equipped, how could it stand against the Japanese? It is not our purpose to have it stand against the Japanese. Or against any great power. The mere knowledge among the big powers that we have a modern army and Navy and Air Force is worth all its cost to us. By this time, the Wang People Songram was a dictator. The year after he became Premier, the name of Siam was changed to Thailand. And soon he made his purposes clear. We must bring under Siamese domination not only the territories which Siam and Gears passed was compelled to yield up to France, but also those regions which are not subject to the control of Britain and China. People's power. People's power. A wave of concern swept over the country's bordering Thailand. It's time to reflect that we have no defenses along the frontier between Indochina and Thailand. It might be well to concentrate at once on installing military defenses along the border. Meantime, Thailand and Japan were drawing closer together. The voice of the Thailanders against the policies of the Wang People Songram was suppressed. They can suppress us, but they can never stamp us out. The free ties went underground. It is the duty of every Thai to resist collaboration with the Japanese. But pro-Japanese People Songram was now in the saddle. All Thai landers were considered either for him or against him. Under him, Thailand concluded a treaty with Japan. Japan and Thailand mutually agreed to respect the territory of the other. What chance would Thailand have to dispute any territory with Japan? Japan and Thailand agreed to exchange information on matters of mutual interest. That means that the Japanese will use Thai landers as a source of information in this part of the world. Japan and the Thailand agree not to side with their graces if either Japan or Thailand is attacked. That means that if Japan goes to war with the United States, we cannot side with the United States. But meantime, Japan will use Thailand virtually as a base against the United States. But if the Japanese thought they were using People Songram, People Songram had his own reasons for entering into this treaty. He watched what was going on across the border in Indochina. The Japanese moved in. People Songram waited for the right moment, then made his claims. Thailand demands the return of the territories which were stolen from it by Indochina. People Songram! People Songram! People Songram! The dispute between Thailand and Indochina flared. And the Japanese already occupying part of Indochina and with their eyes on Thailand, graciously stepped in as mediators. They gave the territories demanded by People Songram to Thailand. People Songram was gratified. But he was to learn that the Japanese were looking farther ahead than he. Attention! A squadron of Japanese bombers is approaching Bangkok. A squadron of Japanese bombers is approaching Bangkok. Run for your land! Attention! Attention! Japanese amphibious forces are landing in Thailand at the neck of the Mele Peninsula. Japanese forces are invading Thailand. After five and a half hours, People Songram gave up. The Japanese marched in and took over Thailand. Now Pace's the floor nervously was there with People Songram when the Japanese took over. But if he thought what many another Thailander thought, he said nothing. The Japanese did not receive the free ties of the underground. The Japanese are aggressors. They cannot say that they came into Thailand to liberate us from the oppression of foreigners. For we have longed been an independent nation. The free ties from their concealment watched what the Japanese did. In addition to the territory which we returned to you from Indochina, Japan now returned to all the provinces of Mung Pan and Kuntung from Burma. Thailand expresses its boundless gratitude. We are happy to announce that a grand mission and a visitation on the Japantai Alliance will soon visit you here in Thailand. Thailand expresses its boundless gratitude. In appreciation of all the state ministers of Thailand have done in the promotion of Japantai relations, we are happy to present each of them these gifts. Our gratitude is boundless. And to you, Madam People Songram, we are happy to present this trove of diamonds and pearls. Our tiger never sheds his stripes. A Japanese bearing gifts is still Japanese. People Songram became Japan's boy. He declared war on the United States. He had his army, his navy, and his air force. But he also had the Japanese in Bangkok and everywhere else in Thailand. By this time the Japanese also occupied all of Indochina to the east, Malaya to the south, and Burma to the west. And these countries they set about diligently to tie together. This railroad system we are building will ring directly in Thailand with Indochina to the east and Burma to the west. Of course. The new railroad built across Thailand from Indochina into Burma became part of the Japanese strategic highway of steel in East Asia. Over this railroad they could supply Burma without sending ships all the way down around Singapore and through the straits of Malacca and up to Rangoon. Also, if Rangoon should be knocked out they could still pour supplies into Burma over land. These will make Bangkok even more important as a railroad cylinder than ever before. Of course. For years before the Japanese came Thailand had one of the best railroad systems in Asia. 2,000 miles of rails and all of the lines converged in Bangkok. But the underground knows the value of this too. Bangkok is within 48 hours of the three major ports in Southeast Asia by railroad. Rangoon, Burma, Saigon, Indochina and Singapore. This is a great advantage for the Japanese. But since Bangkok is the railroad center in the middle of the three this is also a great weakness in terms of allied air power. But when Peeble Sangha mentioned the vulnerability of Bangkok and the trans-Thailand railroad the Japanese had an answer. No railroad is invulnerable on race. There is the adequate air power to protect it. And we have aerial supremacy over Thailand. But as the allied successes in the Pacific piled up Peeble Sangham and his satellites had reason to reassess their supposed safety. Your new supply railroad runs across the great north and south valleys of our country. For centuries these great river valleys have been the trade routes between China and the sea. The Chinese armies could drive southward through these valleys and cut the new east and west railroad. This would divide the Japanese forces and Thailand would become a battle ground. You all need to have no concern, Rangoon Peeble Sangham. Our military has a situation under control. But it is a possibility, is it not? Peeble Sangham the dictator became Peeble Sangham the yes man. At last he knew he was Japan's boy. At last he knew he could do as the Japanese said and nothing else. He saw more and more evidence of the resentment of his people against him. His own personal servant tried to kill him. Assassins attacked him. The underground stalked him. He began to look for a way out. I have asked you the members of my cabinet to name one to succeed me. You have not seen fit to do this. Today I ask you again. No, no, you must be the leader. No, no, I cannot go on. I have failed. You must know that Thailand is confronting a precarious situation. You must leave the way. No, no, I have even been reproached that you my ministers are men of dishonorable character. I say that one of you should succeed me. No, no, I am not worthy to step into your responsibility. You must! You, my ministers, must name Govathapuiwong my successor. Not only does the enemy hate me, but many of the Thai people as well. No, no, no, you must continue to be our leader. That's right. Peeble Sangram continued his premiere, but in the next two months he saw the rising tide of the opposition against him. Word filtered in that the free Thai underground was gathering strength. Peeble Sangram knew he was through. Peeble Sangram has resigned. The word echoed through the underground. Peeble Sangram has resigned. Peeble Sangram has resigned. For two weeks, no more was heard of Peeble Sangram. Nothing about what had become of him. Nothing about a successor. Then something strange happened. The April Solido among the people of Thailand is the premier Luang people of Sangram. The Japanese radio launched a campaign praising him. Luang people of Sangram has been a far-seeing statesman with only the welfare of Thailand at heart. That means that something is about to happen. Through the efforts of the Luang people of Sangram, the people of Thailand have won their rightful place as the most progressive in South Asia. It went on like that for weeks. Peeble Sangram had resigned. Yet the Japanese radio spoke of him as still premier. That means the Japanese will not permit him to resign. One day he returned to Bangkok and resumed his office as premier as if nothing had happened. The time has come for all of us to work together for the good of Thailand. But now there were no mass cheering. No people saw us. For now the fury of war had come to Thailand. Luang people of Sangram. Luang people of Sangram. Luang people of Sangram. What is it? The big bombers are coming back again. British bombers and American bombers this time. You must come to the shelter. No. No, I will stay here. They will be here in a minute. Come along, please. Are they never going to stop coming back? That's right. This way. No hurry. Heavy U.S. and RAF bombers hit Bangkok in force last night. Targets for the concentrated blow were the railroad yards, the dumb Hmong airfield north of the city, and the armament factory. U.S. liberators returned to the attack at Bangkok today and blasted railroad yards on the armament factory. India-based American bombers have just returned from giving Bangkok its worst raid, blasting railroad chops and freight yards and smashing the waterfront. Bangkok is being destroyed because people of Sangram dragged us into this war on the side of Japan. Yes. Down with people of Sangram. Down with people of Sangram. The bombers came back again and again, hitting Bangkok, the strategic center with ever heavier bomb weights. We cannot remain in Bangkok. That is right. Bangkok is being demolished. We must move the capital to Petchaboon. Yes. We must take action in the National Assembly at once. The bombers returned to knock out the harbor and wafts at Bangkok. For since they had been knocked out, rangoon as a port, the Japanese unable to land supplies there, were bringing them into Bangkok to be shipped by rail overland into Burma. And the falling bombs hastened the flight of people of Sangram at its satellites to Petchaboon. People of Sangram and his cabinet have resigned after a dispute in the National Assembly. People of Sangram did not resign. He was ousted. We must make sure that the wrong man does not succeed him. The dictator had fallen. Throughout the ruins of Bangkok and in the secluded hideouts in Petchaboon, the enemies of people searched for him and his satellites. Some of people's satellites were shot to death. Some were poisoned. People of Sangram again miraculously escaped. But so did the would-be assassins. A luang go with a boy one. You will succeed the luang people of Sangram as a premier. Thank you very much. I am deeply honored, but I must decline. You have been very close to the former premier and the two of us. I have tried to act in the best interests of my country. Yes, yes, of course. And you were the former premier's choice as his successor. I hear. He, luang people of Sangram, was very kindly disposed to have me. Oh, then it is settled. You will, of course, accept the premiership and will name a new cabinet as one. Ah, I believe that. Thank you very much, premier Luang go with a boy one. Good day to you, sir. So, today Luang go with a boy one is a nervous man. He gets his reports about the bombings in Bangkok and the advance of the British in Burma toward the Thailand border. The British have Rangoon now and for all practical purposes they have knocked out Bangkok. Luang go with a boy one. How long do you think it will be before the enemy is here? The enemy is the Americans and the British and the French and the Chinese. What was that? I say how long do you think it will be before our enemies are here? We have no enemies. So, we have nothing to fear. But enemies are not. Luang go with a boy one knows that with the Japanese in control of his country it bids fair to become a battleground. His advisers have told him this western shore of Thailand right here facing the Adaman Sea is excellent terrain for landing operations. The beaches along here on the western side would permit easy amphibious landings. And the terrain is neither mountainous as you know or covered with jungles. Invaders could then cross the narrow peninsula and push northward on Bangkok and up into our broad plains here above Bangkok. Yes. In addition, the enemy could advance from the north down through the river valleys. Yes, yes, that will be all. Of course. Running through Govitt of Huayuang's mind is something he has known for a long time. Thailand is the key to military operations in Southeast Asia. When the United Nations get control of Bangkok and the country immediately around it they will develop it for all its strategic value. From there, the whole range of Japanese bases will be pulverized by bombings. Singapore, Saigon, Palembang and even many of the bases in Sumatra and Java. The little man knows the meaning of all this and that is why he is nervous. We've been listening to the Pacific Story presented by the national broadcasting company and its affiliated independent stations as a public service to clarify events in the Pacific and to make understandable the cross currents of life in the Pacific Basin. For a reprint of this Pacific Story program send ten cents in stamps or a coin to University of California Press, Berkeley, California. May I repeat? For a reprint of this Pacific Story program send ten cents in stamps or a coin to University of California Press, Berkeley, California. Pacific Story is written and directed by Arnold Marquis. The original musical score was composed and conducted by Thomas Paluso. Your narrator, Gain Whitman. This program came to you from Hollywood. This is the national broadcasting company.