Yeah, considering that contract is always an important aspect for a student of law advocate. We thought that let's do some series that we have also done certain sessions with Professor Nilima Babade. And we had also done one of the sessions with Professor, sorry, Justice Suresh Gupta. And taking things forward just because we were connected through him through Justice Roshan Dalvi. We thought that the second part as to the consideration in the contracts in the Indian Contract Act. That it will be a connecting point, those who can watch that Justice Suresh Gupta's video as well as on the aspect of consideration in contracts. For taking you from the topic itself, Justice Roshan Dalvi has always been considered, though there is no contractual obligations, but she always exceeds to our request. And today I am finding that she was saying that she's not able to see us and be that as it may and since she says that she is having a difficulty with the PPT part etc. But her passion, her zeal to share the knowledge, paying back to the society has always been a fascinating part. And therefore, the topic for today's topic is consideration in the contract. I will not take much time, I will request ma'am to take the things forward. Good evening Vikas and good evening friends. I know you have heard about the offer and the acceptance from Justice Gupta. You have heard about the elements of the contract act from Professor Nilima. And I have heard both of them. And I think from there, we must follow one of the most important aspects which may be quite missed at some times but which has got many prongs of understandings and that is the consideration. There is no contract which is enforceable if there is no consideration in the contract. So first friends, we will see what is this provision in the Indian contract act. It is in one of the corners, section 2D that shows what is the consideration. And that consideration is a little different from the English law from which our contract act has been based from 1872. So under section 2D, when at the desire of the promissor, promissor is the person who offers something and wants to promise. So it is only at his desire and not any other person. The promissor or any other person has done or abstained from doing this past consideration, does or abstains from doing present consideration or promises to do or abstain from doing future consideration. Something such act or abstinence or promise is called consideration for the promise. So it's a very simple but a long definition and this definition consists of three parts. It shows that something, some value to whatever is enforceable in law must be there. As we go along, I'll tell you what are the exceptions etc. But when you have this value, you can't have it at that minute when you enter into the contract. It may be given before, it may be given at the time of the contract or it may be agreed to be given afterwards also. And everything is acceptable under the Indian contract act. Past consideration is no consideration under the English law. But we are not really concerned with that because a lot of our contracts through 1872 and even there before when the contract act came into being dealt with past consideration. Because of something that somebody had done earlier, some contract came to be and that was enforceable in law. So it was a contract. It was not only a social agreement. Okay, so at the desire of one person, another person has done is doing or will do something that is consideration. It's as simple as that, but it's extremely important. Now, when we analyze the section friends, it is what is this consideration? If you have to explain, we would say that it is a reasonable equivalent or any other valuable benefit that somebody will give somebody else. The two parties to the contract. Okay, so a valuable consideration may consist in. Now this is as per the judge made law, a right interest, forbearance, detriment, loss, responsibility, given, suffered or undertaken by another person. So it could be any of this. It can be a right to get the money. It can be an interest in a thing, for example, to purchase. It can be forbearance. Okay, I will not do something for another one year. It may be to the detriment of somebody also that I don't mind I will I will get this loss but I want this contract. Or it may be a loss which is suffered that can be construed as consideration or a responsibility for doing something like for example an employee working for an employer. So all this any of this could be consideration. And therefore it is called a price under the contract that which deals with commercial contracts. What we consider of value is the price. This is not morals. So it is not the word, like the word of a man, it is the value of a thing. So it is the promise, it is a price for a promise, a return or a quid pro poco, as we call it something for something else that is consideration. The second question is consideration is for whom. One is the promissor. So a financial bank giving a loan is consideration for the other man getting the loan and paying off the loan with interest. So both have given some consideration. A construction man constructer, he constructs a building. He is a promissor. He says I will construct a building and I will get this much money, but I'll give you a flat. So that is consideration. A purchaser and seller in the sale of goods, that is usually the commercial contracts, both either you purchase for consideration that is for money or a price or you sell for a price. A stevedor, for example, in commercial maritime contracts, all these are promissors for whom the consideration can be considered. But that is not all. In Indian law, that is under the Indian contract that it is also for the promissor or some other person. So it is a third party. It is not only for the promissor that the promissor gives a consideration. Now, when we say third party, why has that come? That is in our Indian law, not in English law as such. But it must be seen to be understood. For example, a father pays the school fees for the education of his child. Now, the school fees is consideration for the education, not of the father, not of the father who is paying it with office check. Then, for example, there are marriage contracts where you say that I will give you this gift if you marry my daughter or something like that, aside of course from the W Prohibition Act. So those agreements are also for the bride, which a bride's father or sometimes even the groom's father gives when they settle a marriage. Then there is a trust. So whenever there is a trust, there is a settlement for some money. And even if the trust has to do some charitable act and therefore that charitable act or that settlement is for the beneficiary. That beneficiary is a third party. Then there are some contracts in labor laws. For example, contracts of employment and various contracts between the employer and the employee. Now, if a settlement is done under the Industrial Disclutes Act, for the workers, it is held that it is very good consideration. And once that is done, nobody can resale from it, both the employer and the employee. There have been many cases on this. Then if there is a HUF, for example, and there is a partition of the HUF, the father wants the partition from his brothers. But for whom does he want? He wants it for his son, so that he can have another HUF of which he becomes the Kartha with his sons and his son's sons and his son's son's sons. As the law was prior to 2005 and the daughters became co-pastas. So any Kartha doing it also for his son, the son is a third party for whom consideration is given. So that he says, okay, I give up this and I get this property in partition in a family arrangement. It has been held that it's good consideration. Now, very often nowadays we have got contracts of redevelopment of properties. These contracts are made by the society, the housing society with the builder. But the real beneficiary are the flat owners. For whom the flats and the occupants for whom the flats could be taken. So those occupants are the beneficiaries for the consideration which has passed from the builder to the society of ICOS. Then there are some tourist holidays. There was a very interesting case of certain tourists who went with a man had made a contract. He was the promissor, but he took his whole family for his tour and the tour was a complete loss. So he applied for some damages and it was said that okay, for him we can give but not for his wife and all his three children and all that. And the court said no, that is a third party for whom the consideration was paid because he paid for all five of them. So when the holiday went around, when the contract was breached damages were given to all. Okay, so these are the various aspects of third party beneficiaries in a contract of consideration. Now friends in commercial contracts price is the fundamental condition because no commercial contract can be entered into without a price being fixed. It may be adequate or it may be inadequate. But there has to be some price for a contract otherwise it is not enforced. You can understand this by this example. A wanted to construct a building through B. The parties negotiated the price but they did not agree. B introduced the financer also. But since they could not agree on the price, A gave the contract to somebody else after he got the financing. B sued A for breach of contract to construct. He wanted that contract to construct. But it was held that there was no price fixed and without price there can be no consideration in a commercial contract. So price was held to be fundamental and having not to be agreed there was no contract. Then comes now there is there has to be a consideration we understand. But what is this consideration? I want to sell a house for 10 rupees. Is that consideration? Yes. It is good consideration in law. So somebody would say why would you sell for 10 rupees?  Or you must be having some kind of a front to show somebody that you have bought this house when you have not bought. Or you want to make it Benami which is prohibited under the Benami Transactions Act or whatever. But the court will not go into it unless one of the parties says that this consideration was not proper. So inadequate consideration is also good consideration. It is lawful consideration provided it is given with free consent. So both the parties have agreed. Now we will deal later on with some kind of exceptions to it and that would be exception 2 to section 25 which I'll deal with later. But for example there is a sale of a dilapidated building. It goes for an undervaluation. If there is an auction sale of a building it goes at an undervaluation. So the consideration is inadequate but it is not unlawful. Depending upon the exigencies of commerce of trade of that particular contract parties decide on any consideration and that the courts accept. But if it is challenged if the other party says that no this consideration is not proper. I was given this and I had to be given some more. This was actually only in part payment. Then the court will go into adequacy or inadequacy of the consideration. So the court will say that this contract is worth so much price. How can it be done at most at so much of an undervaluation? There is something right and we will not enforce it. So that is about adequacy of consideration. Then we come to past consideration which is only in Indian law. So an act done by a person without any contemporaneous promise. He just does something for somebody else. That can be a consideration for a subsequent promise and for its enforcement. Now how did this come about? This came about actually in cases of caring for children. That is as I first only told you about the education of children. So the father pays the fees in advance. But then that is past consideration and the teachers are supposed to educate the child. So if suppose nothing is done in schools or colleges or any such thing, the father will say give me back my fee or that I will have to claim damages. So this is past consideration. Suppose somebody finds a wallet and gives it to the person. He has done it without any consideration. But he may not have done it absolutely gratis. He may be wanting something and the promise he says, yes, I will give you a reward. Once he says that there is an oral contract and that is for past consideration. And that becomes enforceable in law. Similarly, I have a marriage contracts. In fact, actually it appears that this past consideration came into our law seeing the custom of marriages in our country. Because there were many contracts made of movable as well as movable properties of ornaments, etc. at the time of marriage and they became enforceable. And therefore if the marriage could not take place or there was a breach, then that had to be written. And that was the past consideration which had to be written. Now this aspect of past consideration, we find in our Indian contract act in other sections. That is sections 68, 69 and 70. 68 are for necessary supply for good consideration of payment. So if suppose a grocer supplies us food, groceries, because there is some kind of an oral contract that every month I will want 10 kilos of rice and the grocer supplies. He doesn't supply gratis. He has supplied it for necessities and therefore he has to be paid. That becomes an enforceable contract under section 68. Then if there is money paid on behalf of another person who is legally bound to pay, then it is again good consideration for reimbursement. So if suppose a bank gives money on behalf of one person to his purchaser or seller in a purchase and sale contract, it will be taken as a loan and on an implied footing that the loan will have to be returned. In fact, these are the written agreements and this will be returned with interest. So under section 69, if there is any money paid, it must be paid back. Now suppose there are some goods and services given. Suppose there is some service actually undertaken. For example, if there is a construction contract and a lot of construction has taken place, but money has not been paid for the raw materials. So then that developer would fall under section 69 and he would be able to claim for all the raw materials that he has purchased earlier in anticipation of that contract which he had, that this raw materials would be required. Then under section 70, acts done and delivery made not intending to do so gratuitously is for consideration. So even if there is a contract and if everything doesn't go well, but some thing is done in the contract out of many acts which have to be done. Let us say for example, a building had to be constructed and it was of 20 stores, but the developer did construct up to say five stores and there was a lot of delay and monies were not paid. And he says, unless now you pay me the monies for the raw material which I have purchased, cement, steel, etc. I will not be able to do anything further. So he stops the construction. And the person, the owner says that you have reached a contract. I am terminating your contract and I want damages. Now at that time, the builder can say that whatever is this past consideration, the amount that he has put into say cement or steel or whatever for the raw materials will have to be paid even if the contract is terminated. There are many such contracts in our arbitrations in commercial law. And we hold that when we are deciding on whether the termination is lawful or not. And what is the damages that the party has suffered because the other party has not done a part of the contract. You say yes, you can terminate because now he is not going to construct, but you will have to make that payment. And that payment, it is not understood quite often, but that payment is under section 70, even if it is not under the contract. So a reasonable value for the goods purchased for the services rendered for whatever construction put up is always deducted from the damages which are given. That is the question of justice, equity and good conscience. Okay. Then friends we come to executory and executed consideration. Now as I told you past consideration, as well as future consideration both are good, because most of the contracts you don't have consideration at the moment of the contract. So in executory consideration, it consists of a promise. It deals with outstanding rights and liabilities of both the parties. Like I gave you some example marriage contracts for example, my daughter will marry your son but I will give her this house. So it is an executory contract. If the marriage doesn't take place you can't get the house. But if the marriage takes place you can demand the house because that was executory consideration. The contract is binding as soon as promises are exchanged. Now this happens also in sale of goods. For example delivery and payment at a future date. So you make a delivery on save after one week and payment will have to be made in installments at after one week two weeks two weeks four weeks. Okay, so that is executory consideration but it is enforceable at a future date. Then there is promise to sell and deliver and the promise to pay in such a contract. The contract becomes binding as soon as promises are made and does not depend upon delivery and payment delivery and payment can be later enforced. Okay, another example which we always have is the power of attorney to sell. Now that is the power of attorney coupled with interest. It is irrevocable power of attorney. It actually gives leeway to a party to wait on because he has got to sell that property. Now he has to wait for the best price to get that property. It is under the power of attorney. The giving of the power of attorney is good consideration that you wanted him to sell and therefore you can demand that he sells that property. Now what is a executed consideration? It consists in performance. For example, if there is a lawyer, now a lawyer acts for the client. The lawyer may charge fees in advance. He may charge part fees. He may get a good order for the client. He has done everything for the client. He can demand this fees for executed consideration. You understand this is generally in service contracts. There is a right of one party and the outstanding liability of another party. The contract becomes binding after the work is performed and the payment is promised. These are also offers for labor. For example, a contract for a salary, let us say for an employer and employee. The employee works for the entire month. The employer has to give the salary at the end of the month. Now this is for executed consideration. The work of the employee is good consideration for the salary which is agreed. Then there is a different aspect to consideration. Unilateral and bilateral consideration. Unilateral is consideration of one party which is executed and can be enforced. Then there is a right of one party and the outstanding liability of another party. Just in the last example which I gave you of a service contract or an employee's contract, it is unilateral. One side consideration is already given. The other side that is the employer has the liability to pay. Now for example, there is a promissory note. It is on a unilateral consideration. The money is given and the party who receives the money promises to repay at a particular date. So there is a unilateral consideration for an outstanding liability. Even certain sales which are on credit, for example. There are many sales which you can take, books which you can take on credit and goods which are supplied on credit. The orders of credit are executed and the goods are shipped from one country to another. Now all this is unilateral consideration and that can be enforced by the outstanding liability of another party who receives the goods or who gets the services. Then the other is bilateral consideration. That consideration is executed on both the sides but the contract is in the present. So there is nothing to enforce. For example, sale of goods over the counter. So you buy one packet of rice and you pay the price for the rice. These are bilateral considerations. The grocer gives you the packet and you give him the money at the same time. Another very important example of this is co-owners. Co-owners getting one property each and giving up the claim to another property. Quite often we have our arbitrations also and mainly our adjudications where there are family arrangements. Family arrangements is between brothers and sisters or brothers or whatever. And there are several properties and for whatever consideration one brother gives up one property and says I will take this property and you take that property. Now these are bilateral considerations. They are executed on both the sides. So one brother will say I must get this property. Another brother will say I must get the other property. So giving up of one property also is good consideration for one person. Now I have been telling you about giving up. That giving up in law is called forbearance. So forbearance itself is good consideration. Now which are these types? Again examples will give you the best picture. Parting with something of value. For example the settlement of a house in anticipation of the marriage of the daughter. I will give you, I will part with this. So that is good consideration. Somebody in a family moves out of the family because he wants better space but he has been given some money. Now that is good consideration. We cannot have the right to that property thereafter. Once and for all it is settled. So he says I will not come into this house for this much price. So there is a forbearance. Then sometimes there is an undertaking. There is a legal responsibility which is undertaken. So a party undertakes a legal responsibility. For example, tutoring a child. You got a tutor. You are going to pay the tutor at the end of the month but the tutor takes legal responsibility. And the tutor says yes now he will pass in his math exam and therefore he will get admission to whatever IIT college. That is the legal responsibility. And that forbearance undertaking of that for the amount which will come at the end of a month or at the end of the course is also good consideration. And therefore the tutor can enforce it. Then in law really the more of the cases that come up are forgoing the exercise of a legal right like the right to sue. That happens in very many cases where you agree and there is an agreement after there has been a legal notice for example. So there is a forbearance to sue but that should be for consideration. Non enforcement of a claim for a specific time or non enforcement of a claim or suspension or abandonment of the claim is also good consideration. Because there may be something which that person got and he says okay, I don't want it may be peace of mind for example. I don't want to withdraw my claim. I don't want to prosecute the claim. Now that is good consideration. After sometime you can't say no now I want to prosecute the claim because the suit is withdrawn that contract comes to an end. So non suing for eviction for example the landlord says you give me more rent and I will not I will not sue you for the areas which have now happened or for the construction that you have put up or even for my bona fide requirement or any such thing which is another rent act that is entitled to claim. This is good consideration. And many times now contracts do take place like this, there are agreements for compensation of rent executed after every three years or so. So that is actually forbearance of the licensor or the owner and the consideration is paid by the licensee or the tenant. So that is an end strength. Then compromise of a doubtful debt or a disputed claim quite often parties file a suit. Then they realize they don't want to go on with the suit. It has been 10 years and there has been no judgment. So they declare it as a bad debt or a doubtful debt and they claim that income tax benefits and whatever because it can be shown as the expense that itself is good consideration for the travel of that case. Then there is an NOC. The arbitration we find that in all this construction contracts which cannot go through till the end. Quite often of course contracts can go through till the end and a bridge is constructed or a road is constructed or whatever like that happens. But when that doesn't happen and the government or whoever is the promise or he says we are not constructing and the construction has stopped. So all right, I will pay you, but you please go away and let me have another call. There are many such arbitrations. Now in that what they do is they get an NOC that is no play no objection for any claim or something like that. So that NOC is in full and final settlement of whatever are the rights that the contractor will get for whatever construction that he has already put. Now then the adequacy and inadequacy of consideration becomes important because these are commercial contracts and the employer says the contractor says that no I never gave this NOC and that doesn't mean that I'm not entitled to. I am yet entitled to damages because he did not allow me to go onto the site. Then I had to do various other works. There are very many contracts of quarrying where the contractor quarries and finds nothing and then he says that I've done enough quarrying and it just goes on and on. I can't do anymore in the price that I'm going to pay. So the court will look into the adequacy of consideration and if the contractor is paid everything for whatever that he has done, then that would be taken in full and final settlement. There is a lot of jurisprudence on that. I don't want to go into all those case laws but this comes about usually in construction contracts. So if everything has not been paid then that much amount would be taken to be the admitted amount paid and that much can be deducted but the claim for damages for the remainder of the amount remains. There was an interesting case of an insurance contract. The insurance company said that we have made the payment for this kind of fire benefit. The goods which were destroyed in the fire.  So if the insured was entitled to say 100 rupees, the insurance company said no you are entitled to 80 and we will give you 80. But to give us a receipt in full and final settlement, the insured refused and said this is not adequate consideration. Now it was held that this cannot be, 80 you have to pay and this is an admitted amount. So there can be a judgment on admission or if there is an arbitration there can be an award on that admission. But the claim for the remainder of the 20 rupees will remain and if the insured can satisfy and prove that this claim was given to be given and was a proper claim he is still entitled to last 20 rupees. So this NOC in full and final settlement is very important in commercial contracts because there is forbearance. Then friends we go to another statute, the Negotiable Instruments Act. Under that act there is an exception to the rule of consideration. Other considerations will have to be proved, it will have to be shown. But under the Negotiable Instruments Act as you would definitely know there is a presumption of consideration. So until contrary is proved, there is a presumption that the Negotiable Instrument was made, accepted, endorsed, negotiated and transferred for consideration. Now this is a rebuttable presumption. It is not an irrebuttable presumption. The rebuttable presumption is that as soon as you produce a negotiable instrument, anybody would say that some consideration had passed. But the defendant or the respondent can say no, this was passed consideration for some other contract or it was in part payment of something else and it was not the whole consideration or that I have made payment and this included also the interest which I did not get. In many of the moneylenders claims, those are the defenses which come out. Now this applies to bills of exchange, hoondays, promissory notes, dishonored checks, letters of credit, etc. Now these are for business experiences. Every time somebody gives a check and the check is dishonored, you don't have to go on proving that it was for this consideration because there would be chaos. So therefore the law says that for all of these, when there is a written instrument which is negotiable, which you can transfer by mere delivery, then there is a presumption that consideration which is the price had passed or whatever is mentioned in that document. Then friends, in contract, especially in commercial contracts, we have always reciprocal promises. One party sells and the other party has to make the payment of the price. One party constructs and the other has to make the payment for that construction. So in all of these kind of contracts, there are reciprocal promises, promises of two parties for each other. So one party has to perform when the other party is ready and willing to perform. Now these contracts are usually executory and in stages. Like for example, you have to supply 100 computers. So you may supply 10 computers in the beginning. The person has to make payment for those 10 computers. But it doesn't make payment. So there is a running account. And further 10 computers are also supplied. But it doesn't make the payment. So the supplier says now no more computers until you make this payment. The person says you are supposed to supply 100 computers. So there is a breach. He says no, there is no breach because you had a reciprocal promise to pay for the goods which were delivered. And it has been held in several arbitrations and in judgments that one party's forbearance is good consideration. So he has given for 10, 20 computers. He has foregone but how will he go on? He requires the money again to roll into his business. And therefore payment of price is a very good reciprocal promise for the goods which are delivered for the services which are made. So as they say, no supply, no price, no payment, no supply. Both of these ways the commercial contracts run. Then there are those contracts for designs and plans in construction of structures in construction of artworks, etc. These also form a very important part of arbitrations in commercial contract. And if suppose for example there was a case where art designs had to be made digitally for a serial on the television. And designs and plans had to be given to the designer based upon which he would make it digitally. So when the designs and plans were not given on time and he could not make the digital work and the serial could not be telecast. It was hell that the earlier promissor had could not get damages because he has not supplied the designs because he was himself delayed in supplying the plans for the digital work. This happens in many construction contracts also because in construction contracts again the constructor says up builds up to the plant level and then waits for the first installment to come. And that installment if it is delayed his construction contract for the next slab will be delayed and that will not entitle the owner to damages. Then friends one more aspect is consideration in mutual promises. A mutual promise is a promise for a promise and each promise is the consideration for the other promise. So neither promise in itself is of value but each promise gets its value from the exchange which makes both the promises binding. And therefore each party has a right to enforce the promise of the other. Again the examples are similar that situations may differ. These are for example marriage arrangements also. Marriage will not take place he says unless you give me this much. And if they have if the bride's father has given a particular promise and he has to supply things in the name of the bride. And that is of course not under the dowry prohibition act and I'm not talking about illegal contracts. They'll come to them later. He would say that the marriage not having taken place there is a breach of promise to marry. And under section 73 of the Indian contract act would be entitled the bride would be entitled to damages because the bride was the beneficiary. It was made for the benefit of the third party. Then in commercial contracts also there are various contracts you know from time to time you go on supplying goods from time to time you go on making construction of one road another road one bridge then the end of the bridge whatever that is. So each promise is a consideration for the next one. Similarly in family partitions sharing properties between two heirs is consideration. So there is one promise for the consideration of another promise. There are more properties. Let us say the father died leaving behind four properties and there are two brothers. Now one brother says I'll take the biggest and the smallest property. And the other brother agrees to take the second and the third problem. So there is a family arrangement. Now for each of these there is a contract, but it is a contract, which is a mutual promise for another. And therefore a promise is a consideration for another price. And the entire family arrangement is enforceable. This is the aspect of a fresh consideration. In the same contract sometimes there can be a fresh consideration. There can be an extension of the contract period. Again in arbitrations this is what happens. A agrees to build a house in eight months for rupees one crore for being. We agrees to pay one lakh of rupees, one crore of rupees. A cannot complete this construction. We says all right I'll give you four more months. So he extends the period by a month or four months let us say. Now at that time he says that look you had to construct the whole building. You were supposed to get the cement, steel, all of those other parts etc. And now the prices are rising. So though I will give you extension I will pay at the price that we have agreed. And he also says that if suppose in future the prices fall. Then that doesn't mean that I will have to bear that loss or I will have to pay less. I may still say that I will take the price which has been agreed that is one crore of rupees. So this is a fresh consideration for the same contract the contract of building that house. But extension by one party and for the extension taking the benefit of the price for the raw materials which is implied in the contract is good consideration. And that is a fresh consideration. Then there are some collateral contracts. So there is a consideration in a collateral contract also. A contract the consideration of which is the making of another contract. That is enforceable as collateral to the main contract. Again by example you would understand best. If you enter into a contract of tenancy I will give you rupees 100. Now if this is a lawful consideration if you can give 100 rupees and enter into a tenancy. Then this consideration is collateral to the contract of tenancy which will have some other consideration also. That every month you will have to pay that rent. This doesn't take place many times but quite often sometimes it takes place. Now friends we have the ADR system. In the ADR mediation is now taking hold and many of the contracts specially commercial contracts then realistic properties then in consumer forums. Then in family disputes of properties etc this mediation helps a lot. In this mediation there has to be a women's situation. So each party gets something and gives up something. That is how it is called mediation because it is somewhere in the mean, mediate. So you require negotiation, facilitation, mediation and consignature. And you come to a particular agreement. Now in all these agreements some party loses out something and gets something. Another party may get a little more but one party may have lost out a little more. But the peace that you get, the litigation that comes to an end, the friendship that remains is also good consideration in mediation. So therefore mediation agreements are foreseeable. So any dispute which is analogous to order 23 rule 3 which can be settled down today by mediation or otherwise it was under what we were calling consent terms in adjudication is a good consideration and therefore it is enforcing. Now I would again give you some illustrations of consideration. A gramophone record was to be sold. This was a very interesting case for one shilling sixpence and three wrappers of the gramophone record sold earlier. So it was held that the wrappers were a part of the consignature because this would mean that you would get this price only if you have purchased three gramophone records before. So for a you can say a repeat customer, we will give you a discount. Now that is good consideration upon proving that you are a repeat customer. Many of these contracts today even online in Amazon, if you take this, you get rewards on your credit cards, etc. All these reward points become enforceable because it is for past consideration of the credit card holder. He has purchased something and he has got the points and now those points are valued and can be converted into a purchase. Then a power of attorney to sell a property by a developer. Sometimes the owner says, okay, you develop my property. You give me four flats, the remainder of the flats you can sell. So he gives him a power of attorney to construct, but that power of attorney under that power of attorney he can sell. It is coupled with interest. It is irrevocable and the consideration is the earnest money paid. So when the developer plays the earnest money gets the power of attorney enters into an agreement much before the conveyance he can sell and he can then ask the society to convey the property to the flat purchases. Then allowing a creditor to sell the property is also consideration for the loan given. Now banks and financial institutions give loans. They enter into contracts. There is a promissory note. There is a hypothecation. There is an English mortgage. Then there is an agreement to repay and there is a bank account or a financial institutions account. And one of the clauses of the agreement is that if the loan is not repaid in so much instalments etc. Then the banker or the financial institution will have a right to sell the mortgage property. This is good consideration for the loan which is given by the bank. And this can be sold even at an undervaluation if there is an option sale which is in terms of following the process of law that is today under the securitisation. Then other example is of tenders. When government or PSUs or other parties also invite tenders then the tenders may be for a lesser amount. But the party who wants the tender will give it at an amount which is lesser than the other parties so that his tender can be accepted. Then he cannot say that this is inadequate consideration. A tender price then would be enforced here. Similarly for development of property. So sometimes the tenants they know that they are in a dilapidated building. They are going to get a new flat. The new flat may be more than the area or less than the area. Because there is a capping given in most of the things. In Bombay under the murder act there is a capping of 753 square feet carpet area. Now if the flat was larger also but it is dilapidated they give a larger flat to get a new smaller flat. That is also good consideration. Similarly when we have leave and licence agreements, tenancy, conducting agreements of hotels, restaurants etc. Then the rent or the compensation whichever is agreed by the parties is good consideration. But what if there is a gratuitous licence? For example if a man allows his nephew to stay in his house in one room. And then he says that now my daughter is getting married you please get out and you get another house. The nephew says that no you have not given me anything you pay me something for getting out. And he says no this was a gratuitous licence. I have given you the flat for no reason at all. That is I allowed you to stay for the period that we agree. That was good consideration. And for that consideration you would have to give up his possession after the contract comes to an end. It may be it is generally an oral contract. Liquor licences for example. Liquor licences are held not to be contractual. They are the privilege. So when you get a licence and you have to sell liquor at a given price only and for of a given quality. Because it should not be detrimental to the people who are purchasing it. It is under the excise laws and that becomes good. The licence itself is good consideration. The price even if it is less has to be sold at that price. Now letters of credit are given in most of the international contracts. So when letters of credit are given and the contract is over a period of time. There is devaluation of the dollar or the devaluation of another currency to a dollar. For example a rupee to a dollar. So in that case they increase the limit of the letter of credit. That increase is security for the payment and therefore that is good consideration. So nobody can say that you cannot increase the limit and that is enforceable as consideration which is given. It is a kind of presumption of consideration. Then there is an agreement to avoid a tax. For example parties enter into some agreement to divide the properties between two brothers or between partners. So that the taxation liability becomes less capital gains tax or whatever. Now that is good consideration. So each one will be able to enforce that because evasion of tax is unlawful but avoidance of tax is lawful. Then there are many other examples. For example sale of property in a winding up petition. When there is a company which is going to be wound up the property will be sold by the official liquidator. And when the property is sold it can be that somebody is a buyer. So there is a buying and selling transaction which is called buy off or sell off of a particular party's share. For example there are minority shareholders and majority shareholders. There is a buy off and sell off. And the sale of property if the company has gone into winding up the creditors can also sell the property. It is like the sale by the bank and those are considerations that they will get in an auction sale the price which may be less than the other price but the company cannot challenge it. Then there are partnership contracts. That may be between sleeping partners and active partners. For example one partner will get the capital. He is an old man. He has got a lot of money. He brings in the capital and the younger partner brings in labour. He cannot bring in the capital but they both agree to share half and half. Now these are reciprocal considerations for those promises. So it is good consideration for each of these partners. I told you withdrawing a suit and giving up a claim. Settlement of a bona fide dispute. All these are good considerations. If there is a mutual agreement to avoid further litigation. So if there are commercial contracts or if there are family properties and family businesses then they enter into a mutual agreement so that then there won't be litigation. There is something like a buy over sell over. So all those agreements also are with good consideration. A mere family arrangement to promote peace and harmony is good consideration. In a very interesting case an elder brother had to pay his younger brother a part of the money. He could not pay fully. The mother said that she will pay the deficit, the balance to bring about harmony in the family. That is very good consideration. And that can be enforced against the mother by the younger brother. Then an agreement to pay maintenance to a wife or to an illegitimate child. That is also good consideration for the mere purpose of being a wife at one time at least even if the marriage has been dissolved. And the child who is entitled to be maintained so that agreement to pay maintenance. Then a mother agreeing to pay any shortfall or that is what I told you shortfall for the elder son who had to pay the younger son. All these were good considerations. Now when so far we have been talking about lawful considerations. But there are some unlawful considerations also and they are not enforceable at law. So these unlawful considerations make the contract void under section 23. Which are those unlawful considerations. When the consideration is forbidden by law. When it defeats the provisions of any law. When it is fraudulent. It involves injury to a person or property. Or it is immoral or against public policy. So let us understand all these also by examples. Something which is forbidden by law. If a consideration is given in a binami contract. For a binami purchase. The entire consideration is unlawful. And therefore the contract is void as being as being barred under the binami transactions act. Similarly, Pugrees which are paid in rent contracts. For example, I will give up my rented property to you because you have one of ID requirement. But I will get 50% of what the other purchaser gives. That is a Pugree system which was illegal. And then thereafter under the amended rent tax. It's not Pugree, but it is additional compensation which can be taken or additional rent. That makes it a lawful consideration. Then loans from unlicensed money holders. Under the money holders regulation on prevention act. There was an act of 1976. All money lenders had to be licensed. And all those licensed money lenders had to receive by checks. So they gave loans. Loans taken from unlicensed money holders. This was forbidden by law under the money lenders act for my money lenders act. Therefore, any loan which you have taken from an unlicensed money holder money lender. The money lender cannot recover. It is forbidden by that law. Then employment for money. If suppose somebody says I will give you employment if you give me the first salary. In fact, there are many such contracts and parties have paid. Even in a Lehman license agreement the broker takes the first month's rent as consideration. But employment contracts under the labor laws could not be executed that way. They are forbidden by the labor laws. And if forbidden, they cannot be recovered. GST, for example, it is not forbidden. But GST has to be taken and has to be deducted or added to the price depending upon who gives the service and who takes the service. And therefore there are several contracts which take place. If you do not want GST, then we will not issue the bill. But then if there is an executory contract, you would not be able to execute that contract because there has been no invoice. And GST, it goes against the GST act. Then transfer of license or transfer of tenancy, which is prohibited under the rent act. Again, if there is a transfer, then that contract is for an unlawful consideration. Agreements to evade tax also. For example, GST, all the, so many of the shop owners are evading GST. But an agreement to do that, if it is separately given for an executory contract, you would not be able to enforce it. Then second, if it defeats the provisions of any law. For example, minor's marriage, I will give you my minor daughter in marriage is not a contract which can be enforced. It defeats the provisions of the child marriage restraint act. Dowry prohibition act, very important than in so many houses. I hope it is not there anymore. But all these dowries which are given are under contracts which are not enforceable at law. Then under the urban land ceiling act, nobody could transfer property or develop property more than 500 square meters, etc. Now there were very, very family people and therefore they divided the properties amongst those family people. But if you cannot do that, then what the developers used to do is, they say that you enter into a partnership with us. And after some time, you will dissolve the partnership and you retire as a partner. All these agreements are for unlawful consideration and cannot be enforced. Similarly, Mumbai Tenancy and Agricultural Lands Act. If agricultural land, there was a ceiling limit. And if you exceeded that ceiling limit, the consideration for that particular land could not be recovered. Then under the goal control order, under the prohibition law, you could not sell gold at certain times. And all the jewelers who sold gold sold it on the slide. This was in the 1960s and 70s special. And all those monies which were paid were supposedly called black money as we call it. And nothing enforceable. It is all done at the same time. I give you the goal and you give me the money so that there is no contract which remains executable. Sale of liquor also without the license falls in the same category. Sale my data to a relative. Now, for example, there is a loan taken and the data sends the property to a relative so that when the loan becomes enforceable, when a court decree is obtained, then he says, no, it is not my property. It is my relative's property. All the consideration which is paid under such a contract is unlawful consideration. And if that has not passed at this time, the unlawful contract was made cannot be recovered. Sale by a revenue authority to a default. Now, this is in collusion. It is actually a criminal act. But then maybe and there were some cases where the revenue authorities sold back the property to a default at an undervaluation. The default himself got the property. So he never paid the land revenue under the land revenue code, but this property remains secure. All those considerations were unlawful and payment to stand surety. For example, in the criminal law, if you're going to be released on bail, you somebody stands a surety. When a surety is given, then payment to stand the surety. If you stand surety, I will pay you this much amount and he stands that surety. The consideration is unlawful. Then comes the fraudulent contracts. A sale date in place of a development agreement. The builder or the developer enters into a sale date with some old people who cannot read or do not know the law, etc. And they understand that the property is going to be developed. They are going to get this at the top floor, there is flat, etc. And they will get some consideration with some consideration is paid. And after that they realize that there is a sale date. There is not a development agreement. This was actually a matter in court. It was held that the consideration which was paid was unlawful. The contract itself was void under section 23. And therefore the developer got nothing. Then fraudulent preference to a single creditor is also wrong. When there is a creditor and other when there are many creditors and when there is a settlement with one creditor. So that that creditor can pay less and get out is of unlawful consideration. And the other creditors can come up to that same data and get the property. Now assignment on the eve of insolvency. For example, a man knows that he's going to be declared an insolvent. And just a little before he enters into a contract to sell his immobile property and get some money. That contract is for an unlawful consideration. Payment to biological parents for adoption is unlawful under the adoption set and the Hama Hindu adoptions and maintenance act. And therefore to say that if you give your daughter or son in adoption to me and there is an adoption deed for a consideration, the consideration is unlawful. And fraudulent actually this fraudulent. And then there are contracts and considerations which involve injury to person or property. For example, a lease by an agent and agent is supposed to maintain the property. He has been given the contract to maintain the property to pay the taxes etc. And he enters into a lease and gets the rent. This involves injury to the property of that other person who is the owner. And therefore that is an unlawful consideration. Under the bonded labor prohibition act, any bonded labor is for unlawful consideration. That consideration is very meager. There are boys trafficked and taken into bonded labor. Now there is supposed to be no bonded labor in the country. So if any person cannot get out of an employment by virtue of say his passport having been kept with the employer or his ration card having been kept with the employer. And he is supposed to be given. He is supposed to do some labor work. It is unlawful consideration. Then he saw immoral and what is opposed to public policy. Immoral as really of this concubinage and all those contracts. But admissions to college by influence, you pay the money to somebody to get admission to the college. That consideration is also unlawful. And if that consideration is paid, admission cannot be sort of guaranteed or granted. Dropping a criminal prosecution, there are some contracts where if you drop a criminal prosecution, then you are made some payment. That is an unlawful payment. It is opposed to public policy. What is the consequence of all these unlawful considerations. The agreement is void. When the agreement is void, it is not enforceable under section 2g of the Indian contract. The promissor cannot go back on it without restoring the benefit, but the promissory cannot sue. So you can't come to a court of law. Now I've given you many illustrations of unlawful consideration. Agreements at the time of marriage, annual allowance to biological parents for adoption. Compensation to a witness for deposing was also held to be unlawful consideration. Agreeing to pay a bribe for the work done is also unlawful consideration. The person can get the work done and not pay the bribe. Agreeing for our payment of amount in excess of what is mentioned in the document of transfer. This happens in actual written contracts. Nobody can come to a court of law and enforce a consideration which is not mentioned in a written contract and say, no, this was also agreed to be paid. That is supposed to be black wedding. And that is not enforceable because it is an unlawful consideration. Now consideration by courts of consideration in international contracts. These are certain sound principles. Courts will not enforce contracts or agreements which are contrary to the law of the other country. That is the common law or the statute. It may be either law, but courts will not enforce those in international contracts. And if it is void under the proper law of contract also in international contracts, the courts will not enforce those contracts. For example, contract of selling poppy seeds in Saudi Arabia is illegal and unlawful. So if there is an international contract and there were such contacts within Saudi Arabia and China, which were to be enforced in London, in the Royal Court of Justice in London. The London court said this is contrary to the law of the country where the contract was executed. We will not enforce it. It was not unlawful in England. It was not unlawful in China, but it was unlawful in Saudi Arabia, which is the proper law of contract. And international contracts are not enforced because of unlawful consideration. Then courts will also not enforce or grant damages if the contract would be illegal in the country in which it is required to be performed. So if goods have to be supplied in international contracts, and if those goods could not be supplied in those contracts, then the consideration is unlawful and those contracts are not enforced. So the principle of law, what is that? Courts of one country should not help to break the law of another country. That is the, it is also shown and reflected in conclusivity of foreign judgments and all this. Under section 13, D, E and F of the civil procedure court, I will not go into that now, but that is based on the principle of unlawful consideration that a contract cannot be enforced. The judgment also cannot be enforced. Then friends, when there is part consideration, which is unlawful, a contract may have some lawful and some unlawful consideration. Then lawful consideration can be enforced and unlawful cannot be enforced. For example, if there is a contract for 100 rupees, but there is another contract or in the same contract they make a clause that if such and such a thing happens, I'll pay you another 1000 rupees, which is illegal. Then a part of the contract will not be enforced. So now this is under section 24 of the Indian contract act, where there are different agreements and different considerations. A single consideration for more objects and several considerations for one object. Now, again by way of illustration, payment of municipal permission to get plans passed illegally for buildings in a layout. This is a single consideration. The consideration is the bribe for many objects. Objects are to build 10 buildings in a layout and one consideration is paid. That consideration is illegal. The consideration cannot be enforced. The layout will be enforced. Any part of several considerations for one object also. For example, an employee is paid salary from time to time for bribing some government officers. So his work is only for bribing. This is an illegal contract for an unlawful consideration. And though it is several considerations, it cannot be enforced. If of course the salary is to be paid for lawful work that also then the salary would be payable unless the employee shows that the part of his contract of employment was illegal and unlawful. Then there is the exceptions. The exceptions would be contracts without consideration, which also can be enforced. These are under section 25 of the Indian contract. One is a written and registered contract for love and affection between relations, parties in close relations. This is actually a gift. It is explained also in explanation one to the same section. Now if you make a gift to your son or a daughter or whatever, it is to be under a registered agreement. It has to be stamped with whatever is the stamp duty payable. Then it must be for no consideration but signed by both the donor and the donor. And then it becomes a valid gift, which is a valid and foreseeable agreement, but without consideration. Then a promise to compensate for past work. As I give you the example of NOC in full and final settled, some past work is done. That has to be paid. At least it must be paid under section 70 of the contract act because it was not meant to be gratuitous. It can be paid as a part of the contract which has been done. So that would be to compensate for past work. There is no further consideration required. But the promissor should be competent to contract when the work was done. So a minor upon attending majority promises to pay for his education is not good consideration. At the time he was a minor, he had no capacity to contract. He cannot afterwards say that I will pay you.  It was under the oral contract. That would be bad. So every single last thing has been seen in this law. Then promise to repay time bar debts is an exception. Now that is confirmation of the balance at the foot of the account. So from time to time when a bank or a financial institution gives money and the data keeps on receiving money and just paying interest. He acknowledges that liability. He makes some part payment or he gives. He pays the interest which is due. All of these will be for that past consideration of that loan. And for all of those contracts of extension, there is no consideration. This we will have to read with sections 18 and 19 of the limitation. This will also extend the period of limitation. Now a Kartha in an HUF cannot promise to pay a time bar debt. A Kartha can promise to pay a debt which is for legal necessity. But the time bar debt is not for legal necessity. So a Kartha cannot say that I will acknowledge this liability because the co-partners are the beneficiaries and without their consent he cannot do that. Similarly, a Christian cannot promise to pay his father's time bar debt because in Christian law there is nothing like paying the father's debts all for legal necessity also. So those will be exceptions to the exception. But the exception is payment of the time bar debt. So friends, I think from whatever I know, these are all these various sections of the contract act and other laws which deal with consideration. And you will realize that in anything which is enforceable at law, there must be a consideration. Thank you. Good evening, ma'am. As usual, you have taken us to the entire spectrum of contract law in terms of the consideration and that too without consideration. That was the most important part. We have few questions not on the chat box but on the YouTube. It says agreement in regard to an immobile property on invalid stamp and without registration, whether it can be enforced by paying stamp duty later on. Yes, stamp duty can be paid. You would have to register the agreement, pay the stamp duty which will be adjudicated by the stamping authority with interest and penalty. Once the stamp duty is paid, the agreement is a lawful contract. Then could you explain if contingent contract is enforceable by other party or not? Yes, of course. A contract to do something at a future time if something happens. Like for example, an insurance contract which will have the insurance company agreeing to pay some amount for the consideration of the premium receipt if there is a fire or flood or whatever is the policy. It is a contingent contract. It is definitely enforceable. And it's a lawful consideration. The payment of premium is consideration for that. For example, we pay the premium for our car and the car meets with an accident. So in the terms of that contingency, the amount can be recovered by whatever is the contract of insurance. This is owner of a property has executed an unregistered sale deed. Affidavit registered GPA in favor of the purchases slash attorney. Affidavit GPA? General Barotoni. He says that he is the owner of the property has executed an unregistered sale agreement. Affidavit registered General Barotoni in respect of the purchasers slash attorney and formed a few sites and sold few attorneys died early on. Whether the legal here is entitled for the property? Legal care would be entitled. If the owner was entitled, if the owner dies, the legal heirs right on succession would start. Then if the contract survives to the legal heir, the legal heir would be entitled. But if there is an unregistered sale date, I don't know what the owner himself would be entitled because he will have to register it, pay stamp duty and then only get some. Then thereafter of course the heirs would be entitled. Before we conclude, we will ask Professor Mohan Bhola to express his views. Mr. Bhola. As it's usually heard, very great with great comprehension madam has given a great rendition and this presentation has taken us to a place where we have every such example given for each one of the minute considerations that are possibly legal or illegal depending upon the circumstances. And very great to hear madam and we are indeed, there's a lot of take home and we are indeed very much blessed to have this very great program. I take this opportunity to congratulate Vikas for this and all those who are there in this platform are greatly benefited. Very kind of human. Thank you. Madam's sessions are always well received and it gives a lot of food talks, food thoughts. I will ask if there's another professor, Ayushi Negi, if she wants to share the knowledge or the expressions of the session. No. Yeah, she has taken over. Over to you Ayushi. Hello sir. Thank you ma'am. We had like a very enlightening session and I, that's all I would like to say. I have no questions. Thank you. Ayushi is a regular follower of your sessions ma'am. Besides the other sessions also. She teaches in Shimla. Yeah. Yeah, but then now I'm not teaching anymore. I've joined practice. Okay. That's good. Yeah.  Yeah. Okay ma'am. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Tomorrow we will be having a session with K. He will be taking us the sessions between the co-ownership etc. So do connect with us at 6 p.m. Thank you everyone. Stay safe and stay blessed. And thank you ma'am once again. Thank you.


Hello, I'm Pita Sjarosci. I'm the editor of the Drug Reporter website. I'm really happy today because I'm sitting here with Nana Gotfretzen, a long-time friend and ally, a legendary street lawyer, a founder of the street lawyers in Copenhagen, and now elected member of the Danish parliament. Hello, Nana. How do you feel here in Vienna today? I'm really good. It's an amazing place to be with so many friends and allies from all over the world. So it's really good to be here. So you were elected last year. Can you tell us the story?  I think it was a decision made of quite a desperate street lawyer who really wants to change the world for our most vulnerable people and you can fight and scream and fight again from bottom up. It can be hard to be listened to. It was kind of an experiment. What can I do and achieve if I'm not just a street lawyer? I'm still a street lawyer on Mondays, but if I can also fight together with the people who use drugs and other vulnerable groups from inside and top down. So it's an experiment and it's only a few months now. The election was on 1 November, International Drug Use Day. So it's very new, but I think for now it's promising. Yeah. Exciting. Yesterday you spoke at the session and you emphasized that you are not a politician. So can you talk about that? I've never been a member of a party. I've never been a politician or I'm not a politician now. I will never become a politician. I'm a member now of purple, coloured, political party, the moderates, a new political party who wants to insist on having the dialogue and the conversation about also really, really difficult issues which we have not solved by now, but have it cross the parliament with all parties. It's really amazing that your constituency, the voters, they supported this kind of harm reduction agenda, right? And standing up for the people who live in poverty, the marginalised. So how could you do that? Like, what kind of campaign did you do? How did you convince the people to support this agenda? I was very insecure about how would this go. But I got a lot of messages from people who use drugs and their families and close ones saying that they completely lost trust in politics. But now they are going to vote for the first time in 18 years someone wrote and another one in 26 years. I was Nana, I was a street lawyer promising to continue to do street lawyering but wanting to expand the platform from where I could do the street lawyering and that helped. I won Copenhagen, so it worked very well. I was not a politician in a campaign. I was just me, a street lawyer. OK, so let's speak about the problems of the street then. Last time we were talking there were still so-called no-go zones in Copenhagen where the police were kind of banning people of who use drugs, right? What's the situation right now? Is that still exists? The no-go zones is history. And we got the drug and sums in rooms from actually 11 but the first one was a civil disobedience one. And just a year later we had the state-sanctioned DCRs in Copenhagen and even also in other parts of the country. And we do have the diamorphine also called heroin treatment program. So we have had successes. It took a very long time and we have lost so many loved ones while waiting for our politicians to be mature enough to do these things. But it kind of... We need to scale up. And we need to develop these initiatives. We need to also have a really honest and evidence-based discussion, conversation on decriminalization. It's still a tough one. We have many politicians and policymakers who really fear to take that step and they fear missing the means of sending messages. But an evidence-based dialogue in parliament would be helpful, I believe. Do you think that what's happening in Norway, for example, can inspire politics in Denmark? Yeah. Yeah. We are not very good at learning from experiences and conversations in other countries but Norway is very close to us and we have had a lot of conversations here in Vienna this week. NGOs in the Nordic countries, how can we step up? How can we get a better understanding of what is going on in other countries and how can we get our governments to meet and step up together? And we have made plans for that, so I really look forward to what we can get from that. You mentioned overdose deaths. I suppose that's the biggest problem right now. How can you also talk about other kind of problems or challenges or barriers? Our data may be not... There may be not that good. Maybe we need to also look into that to get better data. But it seems like the overdose deaths have stabilized over the last two decades. That's not good. We might have, with what we've done with the DCRs and the diamond treatment, heroin treatment, we might have succeeded to prevent it from exploding the death rate. But we have a problem with people actually going for treatment. If you look at our most at-risk population of users of drugs, it's only about one third who is in contact with our treatment system. And that's really, really not good. So that's also what will happen now. We have to look into what's going wrong here. Why is our treatment system obviously not that attractive? What can we do to make them more attractive? That's going to be a big issue. We have had so-called treatment guarantees since actually the psychosocial treatment guarantee from 2003. And a medical one from 2015. But something is not working. We really need, especially in the medical treatment, OST treatment, to create low threshold access. So you can just go there. And if we can't find the doctors, we could copy the Canadians when they open vending machines. We really have to ensure that people have access to medications easily as a real alternative to very deadly illegal market. Do you think something like the safer supply programs in Canada could work in Denmark? Yes. We need it desperately. Let's say we are in the end of your term in the parliament. What would make you happy? So what could be the success which you say that, OK, so I really done something for this country? I'm really hard to satisfy because my standards and goals are really, really high. But we have to see as soon as possible a decline in mortality among people who use drugs. I also, and that's really hard to check upon the de-stigmatizing of people who use drugs. But it's so necessary. I want to see a scale up on the funding for their own organizations because we need them in developing policies and treatment services and other services. These are some of the things. And I would be very, very happy if they are completely decriminalized. It is not that prohibition has been a disaster. Really cost so many lives. Prohibition is a disaster still. So people who use drugs have nothing to do in the criminal system for what they do with or to themselves. We need to take them away from the criminal system and have a public health approach. So of course decriminalization is the most important for me. But it's going to be a tough one too. In Denmark you have to be able to count to 90 because there are 179 parliament members. But I'll do all I can to make it. Thank you so much for the interview. And I hope next time we will speak then you can report about success in the parliament. Good luck to you over. Thank you.


Live from Washington, D.C., it's theCUBE. Covering .conf 2017, brought to you by Splunk. Welcome back. Here on theCUBE, along with Dave Vellante, I am John Walls for live at .conf 2017. As Splunk continues with day two of its get together here in the nation's capital, Washington, D.C., home game for me. I love it. Dave's up the road in Boston, so yeah, he had to hit the road a little bit, but not as bad as it can be sometimes for you. I'll take D.C. over Vegas. Sorry, Vegas. Yeah, but you travel a lot, man. You're on the road. Chris Kurtz travels a lot, too. He's come with us from Arizona State University. He's a systems architect out there. Chris, always good to see you. We had a chance to visit last year for the first time. A member of the Splunk Trust. And in general, with a quite a diverse background. I mean, he supported Mars missions as part of the Mars mission facility in Phoenix. Working now, as you said, at Arizona State. But also the trust. Let's talk about that a little bit because there was some conversation yesterday from the keynote stage about expanding that group. Absolutely. Adding 14 new members and for a lot of people at home who might not be familiar with the Splunk Trust, talk about the concept and how you put it into practice. Absolutely. So the Splunk Trust is the organization that Splunk set up as a community leader, community activist. Our kind of watch word is that we're not the smartest people in the room, but we'll be the most helpful. And so our purpose is- I'm not sure about that first part too, by the way. I think you might be short changing yourself. So our organization's purpose is we act as members of the community to help direct community people who have issues and help them internally, or excuse me externally, but also to help Splunk and what direction they should go. Hey, we see this pain point from a lot of the customers. This is something that maybe that's functioned concentrate on. We're often given access to betas or even earlier or even potential products is how should we build this? Is this something that you would use? Is this something that you would like? Table data sets was a feature that I worked on for a year that was released last year. Is this something that you'd use? Is this something that you want? And sometimes users fall through the cracks in the support system and they don't know how to get support help or they don't know where to get directed. And we can volunteer and say, show them where the Splunk Answers group is very powerful. There's an app for that. We can show them Splunk base and help them when those things fall through the cracks. So we provide community enrichment and support, but we're not an official representative of Splunk, even though we're appointed by Splunk on a year-to-year basis. And aren't that many of you, right? No, there's total 42 this time. And you serve for a year and it can be renewed each year you reapply or you can be volunteered. Somebody else can nominate you. It can nominate for us. And there's no guarantee. We, the members of the trust vote and then that goes to Splunk and Splunk makes the final decision. Some companies allow that, some don't. It depends. ASU is very generous and lets me participate and give them my time to the organization. And I said ASU, Arizona State University. I never fully introduced that. What do you have to do to qualify and what's the hurdle? So be the most helpful person in the room. That's what you need to do to qualify. So you need to be a partner, you can't work for Splunk. You have to be a partner or a customer and you need to give to the community in some way. So you need to give back to the community of your, you participate on Answers which is the online kind of self-support forum. You need to speak in the community, maybe run a user group. A lot of us do run the user groups. I run the user group in Arizona. And you need to be respected amongst the community and people go, I want to go to them. They'll help me or at least get me to the right person. Is it predominantly or exclusively technical practitioners or not necessarily? This year they divided us into kind of organizational units. So there's architects and practitioner and developer. So we're all technical. But this year we're going to have the ability to focus a little more on a specific area. What do you do for a living? What do you do with Splunk? Do you architect a Splunk internally? Do you just provide Splunk practice? Are you a Splunk developer that makes apps? You know, how do you use Splunk on a daily basis? And again, there are partners as well. So a plur and defense point, I think are both tied with four members of peace. So that's one of those things that, you know, they're going out to individual customers and helping them every day. So it's really taking this notion of a customer advisory board to a whole, another level.  It's an ongoing, active, organic institution, essentially. Absolutely. We have quarterly meetings online and at those meetings, a different Splunk, sometimes executives, sometimes product managers or engineering managers, you know, come and speak to us and it can be anything from, hey, we're developing this internal product and are we interested? You know, is that useful to you or what enhancements do you feel the product need or, you know, this is a new feature we're working on to, you know, look and feel? You know, I was asked where, I was consulted about the COMPF logo. Hey, Chris, you're an average customer. Which of these four logos do you think really, you know, kind of helps set the mood?  Does it really matter? No, but they were willing to just, I'm not associated, I'm not in the bowels. So this isn't your logo over here that you didn't? That is actually the one I chose. Oh, excellent. Yeah, I would assume so. All right. Who organizes the quarterly meetings? So the quarterly meetings are organized by Splunk in the community. There's a community group that's underneath Brian Goldfarb, who's the chief marketing officer. And so he organizes the quarterly meetings, he gets to herd all the cats, because we're all across the world. You know, you have to figure out a time zone, you have to figure out where, you have to figure out when. But most of the time there's some suggestions. Hey, you know, the engineering manager for Section X would like to speak or, but sometimes it's like, yeah, we would like to talk to the person in charge of search side clustering, for example. We'd like to, you know, we have some, we see some pain points in the community or something like that. So it's wide ranging. But, you know, we can, we're not just a group to rubber stamp anything that Splunk does, but we're also not a group to just sit there and complain about things we don't like. It's really very much a give and take. Splunk is generous and open enough to give us that access, and we take that very seriously, to be able to help guide Splunk into making their product the best it can be. And it's an amazing product. I'm an evangelist have been for, since I started using it, but also to, you know, to help the customers. If the customers are having a pain point, we're probably going to hear about that first. When did you start using? I've been using Splunk for about five years. And when I started using Splunk at ASU, it had been a 50 gigabyte license and they had just bought another 100 gigabytes. And it needed, it needed reworking. It needed architecting. So when I came in, our chief information security officer and our VP for operations are the ones who directed me. And I said, what do you want to grow for? And they said architect it for a terabyte, assume it's going to take us several years to get there. So I rebuilt the current environment and we architected for a terabyte. And here we are, four and a half, five years later, we're at a terabyte and we're still growing. And we're looking at cloud, you know, we're looking at other use cases. And I think the biggest shift for us and we talked about this briefly last year is that I work for John Roem, who's the deputy CIO for Arizona State. And he is in charge of business intelligence and analytics. So it is an enterprise application for data at ASU. It is not part of the security office. It's not part of operations. It's not part of dev. Those are all customers. And so internally, those are customers. And I think that's an amazing opportunity to say that those are customers of mine and I'm not beholden to building the system so it's only useful for security or building it so it's only useful for operations. They're my customers and we avoid any appearance of, oh, I don't want to put my data in a security product. I don't want to put my data in an operations product. Nobody questions putting their data in the data warehouse. That's the appropriate place for the data to go. So that's the beauty of the system that we've developed is they're both customers of mine. All right, so let's talk about your work at Arizona State a little bit. I don't know the size now, I'm trying to think of. I mean, huge. We're the largest single university in the United States. Probably what, 60, 70,000? Total enrollments 104 or 110,000. A lot of that's online. I think we have about 70,000 or more at the main campus. But we're the single largest university in the U.S. There are groups like University of California that's larger overall but not single institutions. So, you know, obviously. Passive. What, where are you now then? What have you been using Splunk 4 that maybe you weren't last year when you and I had a chance to visit? So we started using it as a security product. It was brought in to make security more agile and getting that information from the operations and the networking groups. Firewalls was the first thing we were brought in for. Now we're starting to look at other use cases. We're starting to look at edge cases. We're using it for academic integrity. So the very beginnings of that we're looking at if a student is taking a test. Are they the person taking the test? We're looking at to make sure that students' accounts are safe and not compromised. We're looking at rolling out a multi-factor to the university and being able to protect that. And we're taking a lot of those functions and pushing them down to our help desk. So the help desk has all of the tools they need to be able to support the student and take care of their issue on the first call. That's really important. We have an amazing help desk organization, amazing care organization. And that's the goal is, doesn't matter how long the call takes, you do that on the first call. And Splunk is a key portion of that to be able to provide them the right information. So they don't have to go try to get somebody from network engineering to solve the student's problem. They can see what the problem is at the beginning. Academic integrity, explain that. Yeah, so I don't think that there's any student who doesn't want to do their own work and do the best possible thing they can. But sometimes students get in a position where they need some help and maybe that isn't always exactly what they should do. So you need to make sure that the student is taking the test that they're signed up for, that they didn't have any assistance, especially in online classes. We need to keep our degree important and valid and obviously none of our students want to. Occasionally you find somebody who hasn't done exactly what they're supposed to and we need to be able to validate that. So we need to be able to validate that someone did what they said they did, it's just like nobody wants to plagiarize, but occasionally it does happen and we need to protect ourselves and protect the students. And you can do that with data, you can ensure that academic integrity. How, can you explain that a little bit? So a little bit, yeah. So we look at where the student logs in from, if they log in routinely from Tempe, Arizona and then suddenly there's a login from someplace else. Oftentimes that has nothing to do with academic integrity that has to do with that there's a count compromised. We need to protect the students' personal information, both HIPAA and FERPA. We need to protect their privacy information just generally available, PII. So we look at when they logged in, where they logged in, how they logged in, how two factor worked. And I think academic integrity is really a much smaller portion of it. I think the more thing is we need to protect those students. So we look at how they logged in, when they logged in, what type of machine they logged in from.  And so we put all those pieces of information, all those logs together to build a case that do we need to reset this user's password for safety? But I think academic integrity is important from the brand as well, because the consumers of your students, the employers out there, they may be leery of online courses. So to the extent that you can say, hey, we've got this covered, we actually can ensure that academic integrity through data, that enhances the value of the degree and the ASU brand. Absolutely, and I don't think any student wants to do anything that they're not supposed to. It does happen, you know. But even if it's one, right? Or even if it's the perception of the employer, that it can happen. The possibility. Yeah, and I think that's a really good point is that we need to protect that brand and we need to protect the students. You know, in protecting students is the number one thing. Protecting employees is the number one thing. Everything else falls from that. Yeah, right. Okay. What about other student behaviors? I mean, as far as trafficking around campus, maybe food consumption, dorm living, I mean, all these kinds of things that, with sensors and what have it, you could extract reams of data. We're doing a lot of that. We're partnering with Amazon to look at the Amazon Echo and using them in dorms to provide them a voice interface. You know, Echo, where is my next class? Or, you know, what time does the Memorial Union open or how late can I get a pizza? And that type of thing. And we want to build an environment that's not only fun for the students, but very powerful and uses the latest technology. Pricing. Well, let's talk pricing. Right, I dig for, you know, the one little wart and splunk. It's hard to find. But I've heard some chirping about pricing because pricing is a function of the volume of data. The data curve is growing, it's reshaping. What are your thoughts? What do you tell Splunk about pricing? Yeah, so a lot of people say, man, Splunk is expensive. And I don't think Splunk is expensive. When you, once you've achieved a volume, it's got a good pricing structure. I think that anything that Splunk tries to do to change the pricing model is a bad direction. So you like it the way it is? I like it the way it is. I believe that we've made an investment in a perpetual license product. And I certainly don't think that what we're spending on it for maintenance year is a bad thing. And I think that we get a good value for the product and we're going to continue to use it, you know, for years to come. I've always felt like that your price is too high. It's never been a deal breaker for software companies. They've generally navigated through that criticism and it's been ultimately, you know, an indicator of success more than anything else. But your point is if the value's there, you'll pay for it. Are you able to find ways to save money using Splunk that essentially pay for that premium? Absolutely. So one of the very first things we did with Splunk is we looked at our employee direct deposit. We talked about this briefly last year. We looked at employee direct deposit and we were being targeted by a Malaysian hacking group who was using phishing emails to fish credentials from us. You know, you send an email that looks very much like a university login and says you need to log in and change your password or you're not going to be able to work in an hour. A lot of employees, especially employees in areas that aren't high tech in the psychology department, they may fill in that information and then the hackers log in and change their direct deposit. And then the university ends up paying the employee again and eating those costs. So our original use case was on the fly. We saved $30,000 in a single payroll run. Pretty easy to pay for Splunk when you do that. And so that was our very original use case and that came from just looking at the data. Is this useful? Where are these people logging in from? There's a change, you know? And I think that that's very important. And the thing I love about Splunk is because it's schema on demand, because there's no hard schema, is that it's use case on demand, is that every single good use case in the very beginning was standing around the water cooler having a drink and saying, I wonder if we combine data set A and we combine data set B. We come up with something that nobody was asking about and now we see something that we can help fix, we can help grow, we can make more efficient and to the question of how you deal with all that data is you tune, you decide what data is important, you decide what data is unimportant, you clean up the logs that you don't care about and we spent a year, we didn't buy Splunk for one year, we didn't buy a new license, we didn't buy an expansion license because we took a year to compact and say, okay, all the data we're getting from this firewall, is that all necessary? Is there anything redundant? Does it have redundant dates? Does it have redundant timestamps, et cetera? And pull that information out and it'll just give us a little bit of breathing room and then we're going to turn around and take another chunk. Help. No schema on right, sounds geeky, but it's profound. But you mentioned the word help again, big word, key word, Chris Kurtz, one of the most helpful guys in the community of Splunk. Thank you very much. Thanks for being with us, Chris Kurtz. Back with more, David and I are going to take a short break, about a half hour, we'll continue our coverage here live at .conf2017.


On today's episode of the Pumpkin Patch show, Stairblood Arena just got an expiration date, some juicy gossip over on or slash vibe, Firewall dominates 2018, PSVR leads the charge for virtual reality, and finally we got some dreams news. Now let's get to the intro. Hey there lads and ladies, welcome to episode number 6 of the Pumpkin Patch show, the only PSVR show on the internet that will actually increase the size of your penis or vagina by watching it so be very careful. I'm Petrifying Pumpkins and as always I'm joined by a very special host, today's host is of course Tussuki, how are you doing Tussuki, it's always a pleasure to see you. Hello, this is David Sigerson also known as Tussuki227. That's a very nice cat. I'm afraid you've already got 6 months left to live. So if you're a fan of the arena shooter Stairblood Arena by White Moon Studios on PSVR, then you should definitely play it now while you have the chance because unfortunately the servers for that game are going to shut down in July of this year, and you simply won't be able to play it anymore. In a recent post over on or slash PSVR by White Moon Studios CEO Jay Kutarapallililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililililil he does do a bit of digging himself towards Sony. Firstly he mentions that Sony gave them no option at all to keep the servers running themselves and he also expressed regret that he and his team did not own the StairBlood Arena IP and that if they did that things might be different. He also states that back when StairBlood Arena launched that it had zero marketing and zero POR support from Sony so this is kind of a big amount of shade I feel like he's thrown that way. However he does say that hopefully this will not be the last we see of Whiteman Studios so fingers crossed that these labs will get back on their feet and come back to PSV or at some point in the future bigger and better than ever. Because you know it's always sad to see this kind of thing happen nobody wants to see games die in anywhere. Also I myself boss StairBlood Arena back near launch so we should definitely stream that on the channel soon.    No I just asked that because there's some juicy drama going on over on the subreddit or slash a vibe right now it's kind of bizarre so over there right now you've got a moderator over there and he seems to be a bit power hungry or he's having a power trip or something he is banning viewer developers from the subreddits for like nitpicky reasons the rule I think is not you're not allowed promote stuff on the subreddits and technically when these developers go there and they talk about their games they're promoting it so like that seems very wrong and they're being banned for that reason that's just seems absolutely ridiculous you don't want to be cutting off communication between you know developers and the people who follow the developers it seems very counterintuitive this guy seems like a bit of a fucking I don't know what I don't know what he seems I apparently they've got a quote here from upload viewer who covered this fiasco we'll call it one of his quotes is that he holds the face of the vibe community in his hands and just stuff like that I'd know if he's trolling I'd know if he sincerely you know it gets off on this but very strange but look that's why we went with ps viewers instead of vise people who went for the vise instead of the ps viewers you know they're bound to be a bit you know a loopy in the head something's not right with them but still he's doing that subreddit absolutely no favors at all firewall is the hero that we need so firewall has done very well in 2018 according to the NPD retail tracking service firewall was the number one best-selling ps viewer game for all of 2018 now keep in mind that doesn't even include the digital sales this is just retail only and this only applies to North America of course NPD they only cover North America fair point came in second place and somehow Bravo team came in third place because there's just no accounting for tests so are you happy to see firewall at number one there to see what what do you think about that just calm down I'm sorry please please calm down I'm sorry ps viewer is the hero that we need and deserve so a few days ago superdasa revealed their figures for the big headsets and how they performed in the last year they stated that the ps viewer had a strong holiday period where it sold over 700 thousand units and that officially means that it overtook the Samsung gear and it is now the market leader for viewer in general it's undisputed now so the overall viewer annual revenue including all the headsets that increased by 30% that exceeded all the optimistic expectations that were there so the next time someone tells you you know viewers dead viewers gimmick you can go show them this and then you can tell them to eat shit because you know the numbers don't lie dreams can come true so you may already know about the dreams closed base that is currently going on now unfortunately I myself never got my basic code I barely even cried about that so don't even worry about it but those who are lucky enough to get into the base that they got to experience all the cool shit that people have been making and they get to make cool shit themselves but they were never allowed to talk about it because there was an NDA and non-disclosure agreement in place no sharing of videos or screenshots or streaming or any of that now there was a few exceptions where people broke the NDAs and they didn't seem to be taken down for a while but that doesn't matter anymore because now media molecule or Sony probably Sony have lifted the NDA on dreams so you can just freely go look search YouTube videos people have been uploading stuff people are streaming go check that stuff out I've seen some cool stuff already and keep in mind this game is going to have a viewer support and it's probably going to come out soon enough because you know this is based on everyone's got nothing but good things to say about this base I imagine it's going to be your first half of the year release maybe May maybe June something like that but it's coming soon it's gonna have PS viewer support on day one so definitely look into that that game might be the game of the year of 2019 for viewer in general so hey tizuki if you had dreams like what kind of game or what kind of thing would you make in dreams well as a ladies that's it for this episode of the pumpkin patch show now before I go let me give a big thanks to my patreon supporters who are on screen right here let me give them a nice rub thank you very much gentlemen for your support I appreciate that if you want to support me on patreon the link is in the description but if you don't want to give me any money at all you can still help me out by doing all the usual shite like like in the video sharing us and stuff like that I appreciate that very much as well thank you for watching and I'll see you guys in the next one bye for now