Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always is my co-host Tom. What's up, buddy? Hello friends We are here today to we're gonna do some work today Tom We're gonna fix as we sit here on the cusp the cusp to the very edge of 2020 that year Barbara Walters had always promised us would come We're ready to do We're ready to have all of our armies basically brought to 2.0, but there's still a few remaining my friend Mm-hmm, and I thought we'd pitch in even though these books are probably mostly written Like they're likely at the printer some of them. We don't know that though. And so what I give our Recommendation slash tinfoil hat prediction slash what we'd want to see however you want to do this Sure Also, I agree Steve Keen Steve said you are much clearer.  So I am not at home You should you should call and you should upgrade your internet You can you I'm sure there's some kind of tax thing you can do on that. I don't know look at your accountant I'm not counting get get get a radio-free hammer-haul to help you out. I'm sure you can find some way to do it There you go All right, so well, that's what we're gonna we're gonna talk about some KO Some seraphon some zinch and maybe maybe dip our toes in a little bit of nergal as well Because that's sort of an on-the-cusp book later today This will be a relatively short show just to warn everybody. I have to leave here shortly I'm going with my wife until the weekend or going away. So So hence this is hence the early show. There you go but at any rate news, what do we got a Rumor engine Yeah, it's not a pack. I didn't bring it up. I'm not bringing it up. It's a 40k thing. I don't care I mean, maybe it's a backpack like it could be new KO Hero model in the joint KO zinch release box. It's not it's a 40k thing I mean, don't don't ruin my my hope. I am gonna ruin it. This is a 40k thing What why do you got to be like that because it's way too technical even by KO standards It's not happening Tom Like here's the interesting part. Let me ask you this question Tom. All right, you ready? Here's a question that I don't know that we've ever directly tackled Yeah, our KO the asymptote of technological advancement in the mortal realms. I mean, maybe maybe Like or maybe we haven't touched that yet Well, that's the question, right? That's that's what I want to get at because the one answer Let's if we say yes, then everything ever that comes out will be less Advanced advanced than them Right So you could get other people using technology the cities of Sigmar have technology, right? They have steam tanks and stuff like that Yeah, but people using a thematic flying ships and you know steam power drill cannons and Stuff like that like is that the height of technology in the mortal realms or is there and by the way Your answer could also be well. Yes, it is of Traditional technology, but you could have other orthogonal high technology Meaning like imagine we got a race from high ish that used like Crystals to power sort of a like like an Eldar type take on technology, right? I was about to say that's very Eldar elfish and very likely in fact Yeah, so like you can have similar flying things, but they're sleek and crystalline and stuff like that like Superman's Technology, right the fortune Yeah, and like we've talked about Constructs many many times. Yeah, I think that like I think that's a that's a world that we haven't explored yet That is going to happen like it's only a matter of time where we get and you know in D&D terms our war forge Esk You know race Sure, you know like our nekron nekron. It's it's definitely nekron. No need to worry about it. It's a hundred percent Sure, sure Yeah, it's funny I was prompted for this question not only because I'm working on my army Which is like this very technical take on all this stuff, but I'm also prepping up our Christmas D&D marathon and That you're not playing in because you're a bad person and basically and The by the way my dissertation is coming along swimmingly. Thank you. I'm glad And we're gonna be running in a place called iron reach Which is in this sort of new world I'm building and iron reach is this I'm not gonna go into big details Nobody cares about me D&D campaign But anyway, like it's a place way up in the mountains that was inhabited solely by golems Okay, like a bunch of golems exist and they founded their own new society and the players are playing the children that the golems created So they're technical constructs and everybody got to make their own little type of golem Right, so like what they want to be made of sure it was a fascinating Exploration of like what does technology in a fantasy setting look like because we had one guy literally picked straw Like he wants to be made of straw like a scarecrow Okay Sure, and we had one person basically pick Microbots like nanobots like he's spiders man. He's thousands of tiny robots that take the humanoid shape, right? And so I was just fascinating.  It's fine Golems g.o.l. Ems like like Iron golems. Yeah, like iron golems clay golems flesh golems those kinds things. Um By the way, hold on Matthias Schaefer said he wanted to hear about the D&D campaign if you want to I would I would suggest checking out Vince's podcast undesigned Where they regularly talk about D&D and things like that. There you go mental plug Thank you a thing that I do literally every week and never mentioned Yes, we're like 60 plus episodes in and I've talked about it three times maybe in the history of war No, yeah so for those of you guys that don't know Vince actually does a podcast about D&D weekly with one of our long long long time friends Travis and It's delightful and I encourage you. I've I've I've I've guest starred in on a couple shows But it's definitely it's definitely worth checking out. So it's a it is a It's enjoyable Short podcast 20 to 30 minutes. We covered deep dive on a topic. Yeah, it's a lot of fun Yeah, so Anyway, yeah, the technology question came out like thinking about this rumor engine And I've been thinking a lot about technology and fantasy settings recently. So it was just sort of interesting to It was just sort of interesting to explore what what can that look like right like how far Yeah, I mean I would love if we perpetually We explore the like the framework like so here's an example of this I think that we could take the framework of what's happening with ko and just multiply it out a hundred fold Like that's the type of technology that I would love to see and what I mean by that is this Um, they have some magical macguffin a So for for them, it's like a third a third gas Um, you know for for dwarves. It's urgold Okay, so take macguffin Whatever, well, we already know that there's tons of these macguffins because each mortal realm has multiple versions of this Right, right exactly. But like for for light like surely let it be crystals You know and in whatever and just multiply that out and run a bunch of different races and things that are aesthetically appropriate and interesting and And like so for me like if we have these things that are like magically powering technology I don't have as much of an issue with it. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah Like as long as there's some, you know, element x that is Functionally magical, you know, that's that's your power source or whatever But it's when we get into like pure like fusion Yeah, sure. Sure. Sure. Sure. And that we're in another we're in another design space If somebody's literally using like traditional plasma or fission technology, right? Yeah, they're they're driving our nuclear powered mechs Yes, then we might have like we might have wanted a bit too far afield. Sure No, it's fine now Eight or eight or gas powered mechs. I'm in. Yeah, absolutely. It's so funny. Just like give me a different Framework a different narrative framework for how it it works, right? And I'm okay with it. Yeah. No, it's a good point All right. Cool. What else we got in the news Um, that's a great question. Let me check my notes Um, obviously the new slaves of darkness and tomah champions are going to deliver this weekend We've had tons of articles from gw. I'd encourage you all to check those out um man reads book is back Um, and he has read us this book and so a lot of the notes of the army and points and all that are out and available Um, I have already started designing lists and I think this is like I think the book is going to be a great counter meta book Like it is the definition of the big big tent book Yeah, I I agree. It's interesting You we were we were discussing some of your lists and I said, well, you don't have a lot of Well, by the way, we'll be breaking down slaves of darkness on christmas day. That's when we're going to do the show It'll be our christmas day show. So mary christmas From uh archion who's up on the screen right now because I just I love this piece of art. Um We'll actually be doing that breakdown then because next week we have a different sort of show scheduled And that'll give us more time and plus there's a potential dfa q will actually be out by then They might hustle it along because of christmas because I suspect everybody's going to be out of the office I will say this. Uh, I have heard That the f a q that we've been waiting on will potentially drop in the next week. Um, which means that uh Yeah, that we may not have to wait till january Sure, I mean if they don't get both the slaves of darkness f a q and the regular and the big f a q out Basically in the next week, it's not happening this year because like any office like this You don't people don't work there for like two solid weeks, right? Like I mean you just people go home and and should by the way, like right people should be home with their families If you work in a job where that's possible that you should be doing you don't need to be delivering me this kind of stuff Like it's cool. No your time with your family. Um, no, they like they likely have an automated like leaks schedule Yeah, of course. Thank you. They scheduled all the online content, but it's not on the post. Yeah Yeah, yeah Um, you know, I I did my 10 years in retail So I know what it's like to work around the holidays and now I enjoy not working around the holidays. So there you go. Um the uh But the the it would be really nice to see it, but that'll give us a chance to break that down So we'll be going in deep there, but what I'll say is I really like it so far It's a very it's an interesting army. It is very counter meta There's not a lot of big hammers like there's nothing that super is going to blow people up accepting One glaring problem right now that will probably be answered in the FAQ, but we'll I don't know what your Nurgle is fine. Leave it alone. There's one massive flashing insane problem right now that I don't know how it was missed Because I mean game breakingly insane, but that's okay What I mean really what's the problem with every six to roll you hit whether it be a melee or range tech doing a d3 mortals back to the unit What is the problem with every unit that attacks one of your units instantly dying And your units standing there unharmed I mean like, you know, it's not like a a unit of like 30 witch elves pumping out 120 attacks Generating back on themselves 20 d3 damage 20 d3 immortal wounds automatically With before re-rolls sure and before the the plague touch kickbacks as well and everything like that Right because then with those other attacks that hit The plague touches kind of generate back probably another 20 to 30 mortal.  No issues Just attack something else. Yeah, I'm sure you'll be fine Well, never mind the fact that you could actually as it's currently written stack that ability So it could be multiple d3 mortal wounds where x is the number of times you stacked the ability and or use it on your whole army So, you know, no big deal.  It's fine. It's fine.  I read it five minutes into reviewing the rules I was like, that's a problem and it was the most broken thing So anyway, it's gonna be fine. I can't wait to do the slave show and I'm sure well good for you You as a designer seeing development problems. Congratulations. Thanks. Good job. Yeah, it's learning Uh, yeah, but that's okay, we'll do we'll get into that later Next yeah, and we'll do reviews of the book and stuff like that as well. So um, I will say that like Regardless of that ability gets fixed or not like the book has some really interesting things to add to the meta And it's a great like counter to a lot of these things Um, that all people have been really concerned with so, um Yeah, I mean somebody said you guys have talked about anvils as a unit classification Is this a spiky anvil? This is a poison spiked electrified acid spewing nuclear gamma radiation emitting anvil So, yes, right. I mean, but there's no rend in the army. So it's not like they can really kill Anything unless you attack them. Sure.  I hope you're registered Um, because I'm pretty sure we sold out of everything but maybe teams For the aos events get on that wait list. So like that's the strongest way to get more space It's for people to get on the wait list Sign up for the teams folks.  Um, this is the this like I am is so excited about this. This is the thing he's always wanted to do It's gonna be an amazing amazing tournament. I'm sure So I am stoked for teams. Um, I will be I will finally announce our team So we've had some turnover for the team As as to what this team was going to look like some things have changed originally It was going to be a hyper hobby focused team that did not work out for a variety of reasons But I'm proud to announce our team. I'm going to go on record now. We haven't done this yet Um, and welcome to our team Ben Sava. Yay Um, yay. Hey woe twit.  So Yeah, I know so it's going to be a fun team of just wild wackiness, uh of dry humor and of Pretty painted models and uh, it's going to be a lot of it's going to be a blast So we're gonna we're going to come and uh and enroll some dices folks at the team's event for acon. So I hope you all are there Very nice. Awesome Uh, okay, cool. Uh, what's next? Yeah What is next? Um Night haunt, uh white dwarf, uh night haunt. Yeah, the night haunt battalions for white dwarf dwarf dropped and like A lot of people Oh, we lost tom. There we go. He had good internet. Then he lost it. It was nice. It was a dream for a minute Uh, you're it looks like you're coming back tom. So i'll talk for a moment.  I'm I'm here, right?  Don't move so much. Okay, sweet.  That's amazing. Okay Okay I'll stay still. Um anyways, so Uh, the white haunt battalions dropped a lot of people in the white haunt community weren't as impressed, but I don't hate it Uh, there's actually like a a one drop Uh night haunt list there. That's actually like really good. Yeah with like all of your core stuff in like 130 unrendable wounds and And like five heroes with items where all of them have items Sure. Well, I mean I think that I think that a lot of people weren't as happy on hex rates And it's something you've always been more on board for And like I think it actually does do a pretty decent job of making hex rates quite scary Um, like the bonuses to them are pretty decent Yeah, like I like I have like it it does the work for extra rates. Let me say that. Um, I uh Yeah, I'm excited. Um, I think that there's a viable list there um, and I like I it it's actually like the the design of my army itself Yeah, yeah, I thought it was funny because it really suited what you were already running Right, like I know I wouldn't get to run my black coach, which makes me sad But like it's basically what I almost already have fully painted as a as a one drop. Um, and so, uh, yeah, so I've been uh Ben sob and I've been talking night haunt lists and so, uh He had some really good ideas with it I don't know. I could I could run night haunt for the for the, uh, aos championships. Sure. That could happen All right, cool Uh, I have one more piece of news tom besides the night hop at times.  Oh, yes, I have them. Okay. All right So here we go. I have the results of the predictions Uh, I'm going to read through them at a hyper fast speed so that we all agree. Okay, and tell me if you disagree with any of my My noes or guesses. We all ready. Here we go I'm gonna leave eric out because eric got just you lost eric. I'm sorry stonemunk. You lost So cutting for time. I'm moving eric All right, let's start with cities of sigmar tom your predictions. No new plastic units Which I say is true. That was correct. We will uh have Only cities that fire storm and you will have to choose one of them very prescient Uh, you were correct Stormcast can be used in the potential cities and we'll gain the type i of that city You won't gain your sce standard abilities. All correct. Tom went three for three on cities way to go Uh, myself allegiance abilities and everything else is city dependent Uh, the hero steam tank war scroll and this book will not have any traditional chamber equivalent It will just use the cities. So I would say I went three for three there as well. I think Okay All right oric war clans Tom you well no no no hold on hold on hold on no no stop stop Your one that you listed on the cities was based on like racial type like elf dwarf all that Yeah, you need to rewatch that. I don't think you got that one. Okay. I'll go rewatch like I think you got two of the three Yeah, uh because it was based on like racial types like the sub the sub racial types not the city And we didn't get that I'll I'll go rewatch and make sure yeah, uh, it's gonna be relevant Okay, that's fine I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. Tom your guess is on war clans. They will have endless spells wrong They will invert the power so the standard orcs will be the weaker non-optima build and the bore boys will be the new Hotness and powerful build not really true as a matter of fact like the standard orcs are still quite powerful The bores are also useful like they actually did quite a good job across the bone splitters of making everything have a lot of viability Uh, and you had the new ij unit the beast grave ij unit will be in the book and count as a new unit It did not uh myself Allegiance abilities ct artifacts and spells will be an exact referent for the iron jaws wrong Uh, the bone splitters will lose the weight of dice shots in the air the cut and ruck nonsense Which was correct. They did they did they did lose all the multi shooting and the cut and ruck now caps at 20 models. Okay Like that was a big change. Okay Uh, it's not gonna matter but but you could still you could still do here. Okay, that's fine. Yeah I mean it's like the number of shots you do in the hero is vastly diminished over old school Things you still roll a lot of dice Right. Sure. Sure Uh summoning for the great wall. Yeah, I was wrong because I just said like weight of dice Yep. Yep. I was wrong there. Yep. All right maw tribes Uh, I I guess there would be a new tyrant and butcher in plastic and that the fire bellies and managers would stay Very close, but I guess the plastic butcher which did not happen. So that's wrong Uh, I guess there would be three distinct allegiances only shared allegiance ability across all three will be a large and a charge Which is not correct. I thought they were going to mimic war clans. They didn't All right, right, and I guess there'd be an updated bragg off beast hammer, which I was sad there was not Your guesses Basic goblins will be the third wing of the army wrong the feast of bone sets will be ogres and bone split is wrong And snowball chucking is gone and it's for current form and they will become priests, which you were correct Ding ding that is what in fact happened to the uh To the huskards and to the or to the sorry to the thunder tusks and huskards In order because that's what you were predicting on right? So that actually means That tom you are the winner by one thing I won something If if I go back and watch the the city's thing and I have the racial thing in there Which I because I get I was right now from memory then we would have tied but I'll just give it to you Congratulations, you win.  He gets so little we've got to give him this one No, well earned well earned. All right Okay, so there you go. That's the result got to keep our predictions on us. This is a week for checking predictions Uh, which will go right into pick of the week, which my pick of the week is speaking of verifying predictions Uh I want to recommend. Hey, woe twitch's new show where he goes back and looks back at his predictions for the meta from 2019 Which is great like he actually goes back and cuts himself with the recording and then shows You know how his thoughts have held up and I think it's actually really cool and insightful And that's you know, we want to be it's fun to hold yourself to your predictions It's easy. We take a lot of swings We take a lot of swings take a lot of shots on goal every uh, every week We don't really go back and look very often So that's my pick of the week. I'll link it down below. True Um, for me, I'm gonna I'm gonna spruke um jamie the jasper's uh realm of classic vlog um, particularly He is doing a advent calendar and each advent calendar is a name generator like a mortal realms name generator nice And uh, it's amazing especially for the rpg that's supposed to be dropping here in the next year or so hypothetically like so um, you know, my favorite obviously with my mind being locked in on Um, nervel stuff with slaves to darkness. Uh, he wanted the advent calendar one of the the name generators was Uh, a disease generator diseases of the mortal realms Um nice and it's delightful Yeah, uh the button to click is cover your mouth as as you click it and it like The shamanic bloating the asthma.  So um, uh, i'm gonna post uh, we'll we'll have the link to his blog and uh In the advent calendars. Uh, they're so fantastic. Nice. I'll drop both below All right, tom hobby time. What are you working on this week, man? Uh, I painted some man. I was you know as new books are want to do. Um, I my my hobby, uh My my hobby progress was disrupted because like I've been painting up dwarves potentially for my acon championships list and then this whole like Uh, this whole slaves the darkness stuff leaked I was like I got most of a list painted Sure like Like really gravitated towards like the nervel plague touch stuff and like all but like 10 models Of that list that I would run in the new std book Uh, it's painted So There's that So I could definitely end up just running slaves the darkness for acon like that's a very real possibility Oh, I'm sorry my keyboard was not everybody. I didn't realize I was clicking so loud when I was answering your question I apologize. I'll I'll put it back on my lap where it's quieter Uh, at any rate, I don't normally type too much.  I'm also looking at how I expand them And I'm not sure yet. I'm still letting some ideas percolate Um, I I shared with you a list called the worst list ever to play against Yeah, and you and I were talking about that. Did you see how I I fixed it? I did I liked your I liked your changes very much and I agree. Uh, the goal would just be to make literally the worst play experience in history Uh, where the your opponent has the opposite of fun at all moments in the game and gets to do nothing they like at all which is Fully a possibility in this book like I like it's I think this book actually has the best Version of the worst play experience. Yeah, it's true.  Um, and I I read I saw that and I was like, I'm interested tell me more sure Yeah, it just occurred to me as I was looking through the book That I was like or looking through the spoiled stuff because I don't have the book yet But I was looking through the spoiled stuff and I was like, oh, wow, you could build just the worst thing in the world here It would be horribly terrible Yep By the way, I think I know a different way that you could make it worse. Oh good. Well, I'm excited We can talk about it. Well, that'll be a thing we do on our show. We'll craft the worst list in history It's just that the absolute worst because you could drop the You could drop the keeper. Nope. We lost tom again He's frozen again poor tom That's all right. I'll keep talking. So yes, look forward to that I'll talk about my hobby time while we're waiting on tom to come back You you you froze for a second, but that's okay tom Uh, I'm working on more of my, uh whirlwinds edge army. So here's my here's one of my steam tanks He's coming right along you can see he's a little walker there There we go This is uh, this is the bad girl as you can see because it says it right there bad girl Uh, and then I've got a couple more of my uh, my patented gyrocopters Uh coming along as well. So I'll have my first full unit of them done and ready to go So yeah, I'm excited about this one continuing to just slowly work on on that army I'll have a lot of points like after I finish this I'll be up to to round a thousand points on it So pretty good. Uh, I don't have any battle line zero So far, but I you know Who needs that who needs that stuff? So what is What is the what is the the the legged thing the big walker? He's a steam tank Oh, that's your steam tank. Okay. Yeah, I've got two because it'll be two normal foot steam tanks and one flying steam tank So this is one of the walkie steam tanks Yes All right, tom has somebody visiting him in his in his in his uh, his office. So I'll talk for a moment Uh, so we will uh So that's what I've been working on. I'm excited continue building that army uh, and Uh, I'll I'll answer a question from the chat since that comes up. Yes, and I agree walter tom's hamster and his internet is struggling tonight Seems like no matter where he is in the state. He has he has the challenge Uh, all right. So let's see I know my whirlwinds edge stuff is all aos Uh, and then the question is do I I can't answer for tom, but do I miss the original warhammer fantasy world? No, not at all zero percent. Uh, or do you prefer aos? Yes, a thousand percent I've always been a planescape person as I've said before and the expansive and infinite possibility Uh of the mortal realms is far more enticing to me Oh, look at that. Tom's in a new place I teleport. There you go.  He just you just like Completely different location. All right, cool. You know, if you change outfits in the middle, too, we'll be really ready to go Uh, yeah, then it would just look like an editing cut. Okay Sure. All right, tom. So let's start fixing some armies. Shall we sure sure Uh Oh, I have battle line planned uh, mathias. I just don't have battle line painted That's that's what i'm saying. I'll have a thousand points painted and it's all That's not true. I'm lying. I'm totally lying because this guy's battle line Your tanks are down regular steam tank is battle line. Boom. I have one battle line. Yes Score never mind. I am good. Uh, but I have other battle line planned as well I forgot my normal steam tanks are battle lining one of the builds Sweet. All right. Never mind. We're back on track folks Clearly we need to cover seraphon first with their teleporting, right? Uh, yeah, let's talk seraphon first. So we're going to cover it Let's talk about what we're going to do here. We're going to go through it's not it's pseudo predictions sort of like I want to split this up like this Part the first what are the problems part the second how would we fix it part the third? What do we predict they're actually going to do? Okay, does that make sense? All right, so yeah Let's start with seraphon Part one. What's what what is their current state? What's wrong with them? Uh Old models. Yeah, just a huge set of hyper old models like a lot of their line is very old now A lot of their line is also kind of new And looks pretty awesome like the new plastic dinos and stuff are really good Right. Uh, okay, but I agree. So old models just fill the range and are not good right Uh, and I think that there's some mechanical problems as well Um, yeah And what I mean by that is like they lack a real like ample. Yep Like their sources are problematic Um as they are I think almost everything Soros is pretty much junk Right. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, that's a problem because that's traditionally been their anvil and all of it's just pretty garbo Frank. It's just terrible. Um Yeah, yes, uh, and then as a magical race, they don't have any cast bonuses And they have this really weird incentive structure for summoning Where like they're incentivized to be good wizards, but not use spell casting. Yeah, sure Uh Agreed like they have a weird and I like those sorts of choices generally Right, but it feels like which by the way, I'm okay with that continuing to be but I feel like it should be more Dedicated to like I am going down the summoning route and this is the kind of thing I'm doing So hence I'm I'm using my magic to summon. That's what it is Or I'm a really good spellcaster and I have lots of things I can get at to be a really good spellcaster, right? Right, right, but they don't have cast bonuses and that's like a bifurcated choice I make right where I like that feels like what needs to happen there Yeah, um either you get to be real good at magic because your salon is like a practiced wizard in the traditional sense He's the master of magic, right? Yeah, or it's a summoning focus thing where he's bringing in more spawns or whatever Right. Yep, and and that would be cool But like clearly by the way also So like I would list all the sorus amongst their problems. I would also say that they they lack a strong hammer Right, they're kroyger. Yeah, I'm gonna. Yes, I'm gonna pronounce them kroyger folks I don't know if I've ever done this on the show before but this is how my god. It's proxigor, but continue their kroyger Are like just one bad models two bad rules just bad bad bad bad all over the place that like The bite rule is indecipherable in nonsense. It's like they're not good in any way They have the traditional elite model problem while also having bad rules, right? Yeah You know, they've got plenty of strengths. Also, they're solo big monsters that should be their murderers. Don't hit hard enough Right, like they're big guy on karnasaur and stuff like that.  Yeah, and they're missing the the like they're missing the new tech as well Like mount trades and stuff like that like but that's that's all easily fixed And but that can carry some of the design weight as well for like murdery things Sure Now I do think they got a pretty decent spell lore In there in the ghp I'd love to see that expanded slightly like I'd love to see maybe a slon and a stinky type lore or something like that You know, yeah, but I think they're on the right road there I think they're teleport mechanics strong. That's good. Keep doing that. It makes them I really like that mechanic and I think skinks are generally strong like chameleons are good basic skinks are good You know, so like and by the way the basic skinks that are all plastics are fine I don't understand the mechanic Of what? I like I understand how it works in the game But I don't understand lore wise why they blink in and out of existence Like because they're super magical Maybe their spaceship is teleporting them Is it though? That's what I assumed it to be.  That's just for real. I know like all of that like I just It seems That the mechanics don't match the aesthetic In the concept But does that make sense like I just like it it seems to be the like the paragon of disconnected things Okay All right, so where it doesn't grok at all fair enough I like their magical Spaceship pyramids and that they can teleport people around I'm fine with it. Okay. Well, then why don't they have any of those models? Like obviously the answer is it's an old line But but that's my point like if they're going to push the pyramid spaceship thing then let's do pyramid spaceships I agree. So let's talk about how we fix it. How would we fix it step one? I would make a pyramid teleporting thing that you could put on the board Either as a terrain piece or as a model and there's plenty of precedence for this by the way because the necrons have a Have a big giant pyramid thing they can put on the board like that's just a thing they have They've got these big pyramids.  Yeah, don't worry That that's part of the point here. That's what we're doing. Um, Doug knows he called it all He called everything we were going to talk about the star of the show He he already won that so anyways, but go ahead That's that's step one give them a sweet pyramid By the way, I would it could be okay with this being like a terrain piece and it would have more reason for existing Anywhere than the rest of these nonsense terrain pieces that show up like I don't know who built that corn altar Okay, right like I don't know where that came from. I don't know who stood up the giant slanesh mirror Who drug that thing into place? Okay, and and all the gold that's piled on it one of the three keeper of secrets that you have in your I guess oh, yeah, like the two of them were all just two of them were together just hauling it along Like I don't know how half the terrain that shows up in this game is there Right, like I don't know why OBR has the necromonger obelisk from from Chronicles of Riddick or whatever just stood up, right? That's my critique not yours. Sure I don't know why any of these things exist Some of them make sense like the fec what i'm okay with because it's clearly just like assembled from bone Like one of them literally creates it from bones. Sure. I can stretch my head around that one sylvanas hypothetically they make trees For the firesayers they summon the forge like that's in the lord That's why you place it like based on wherever your rune priest is is that like he snaps it into the existence Fair enough, but this thing is a spaceship that can literally just land and that they come out of like it's the easiest terrain Explanation in the world. Do you know how you do it? By the way is uh Is you do a pyramid but like the top is like semi raised right and it's a spawning pool inside Yeah, sure sure and so then you can do like you don't have to do summoning per se You could like have you could summon them out of the ship Yeah, yes, great again. Perfect. Yeah, you just call some more in from your teleporter beacon again That's what like that's what we're playing in here. I say lean into it. Okay The swan are like these infinitely brilliant like cosmic minded Creatures that have figured out how to navigate with spaceships and they talk about like many times in the lore They talk about skinks go in there. There's all these things they can't understand because you always see from their perspective this Weird high tech that's inside their pyramids, right? Yep, and like that's exactly what should be leaned into and and the reason that they use Like that the lizards and stuff don't have high tech on them And they don't use laser guns is because that's not how that works, right?  Right and by the way, can I as an aside? I'm gonna correct Emily Emily I love you, but it that's not actually the terrain piece.  Yeah, sure Very clever. The gits are very smart at picking their battleground. They studied sun zoo And corn snuck in in secret and built a built an altar right near it Totally at any rate. So that's step one. What else how else we fix in sarapan? Um, so I think that they need to kill a bunch of the model line and re like re lean into this Like temple guard can stay like temple guard could could be um temple guard could be the uh Um the core of that line. It's a great model line. Yeah crush to one type of sorus Sorus are just sorus guard and call them temple guard again for the love of all that's good or pyramid guard or whatever And just make them like two wound anvil Like just very very sticky hard anvils Yeah, make them like two wound and then like legitimate five up after days Not like mortal wound but just like give them a five up after like not the four of Honestly, I like them melting to mortal wounds I would rather they lean into the rend thing like I understand people hate that I would be okay. By the way with a spell Like a spell you could cast on a unit to give it a five up against mortals like obr has that'd be fine So, okay. No, I could do that and then make them just immune to rend Uh, or or like or reduce it by one reduce it by two go stronger than normal, right? Give them a net give them give they reduce all rend by two. That'd be a cool way to go Like three up base reduce all rend by two just make them hard to break. They don't break to traditional things. Yep, right? Yep, and they need to have Rend three or something which is quite rare in the game, but exists. We'll still cleave through them Yep, right And mortal wounds still peel them up, of course like I don't want another hearthguard berserkers, but that's fine These guys shouldn't be offensive Right there they're they are a slow grindy unit put them on like Fours and threes no rend one damage and a bite that's like fours and fours No, rend one damage and have the bites like on sixes do mortal wounds or something totally totally Um, so the problem is is that from mckentz wise they they lack real Anvils and they lack real hammers. Yeah. Yeah, exactly there. It's two It's all too middling and this is clearly your anvil Right. This is clearly the anvil uh with that all the big dinosaurs need to be your hammers agreed They should be the ones that are up. So like bring make the stegodon great again, right? Like that dude should be rocking and rolling. I used to fear that stegodon So much Right. Yeah in yeah in in like many many many previous editions of warhammer fantasy Um, make the big carnosaurs just like I said absolute hot liquid death They don't fly and that's a limitation to them, but then there's a spell that can make them fly Okay, cool. Great. Nice nice inch of play there um and Make the the uh The bestilladon should kind of still basically be how it is I think that's one of the few that actually doesn't need much in the way of changes like it needs rules clean up But I think bestilladon's the right answer Sure, like he he's pretty much in the right space big old laser beam that does cool stuff or snaky snakes that do Wounds to stuff around them. Yep. Yep. Yep. I agree with all that Yeah um, yeah, and I don't I don't And then make krueger actually like some kind of make them an iron guts like unit That would be the easiest way to explain them, right? Just make them sort of uh, Very punchy Modern saves very punchy, but you've got to chaff and protect them like iron guts have a purpose in the ogre army These guys would have a purpose here, right? Yeah, they're just like very hard hitting dudes Put them on like threes and threes neg one rend three damage Multiple attacks, you know three attacks or something like that and they've got big hammers We don't need to get more clever than that and then bites Do we get laser guns? No, I don't think we have laser guns other than like the bestilladon is okay. Okay. Okay If you want to make a new model that's another take on that I would be okay with that like if we're gonna if we're gonna cut the range and introduce some new stuff Um, like if we were if since this is our part where we get to wishlist Yeah, um Then yes, I would have some kind of new much more mobile Like little laser uh thing that's more focused on uh That's more focused on multi small shots Think of it like a little like a pseudo horde clear where it could like fire out It would work almost like the the um The steam gun from the gyrocopters, right? It would run up and feel like And fire off like a disco ball of laser shots that have Why don't you just do that with the snakes like you could do that for your snake base data I guess I just because the laser effect would be cool on a dip on a faster body My point is you put this on it. Yeah on something that's got yeah, but there's a different like teleport You always still are nine inches away, right? Yeah, one of the advantages to a gyrocopter steam gun is that that thing flies 16 inches Right, right.  We get to do whatever. Yeah, that's true That would give them some because one of the another big problem They've traditionally had is like good reliable horde weakening Right.  Yeah, sure Sure, I mean like they have a chaff is the one place they don't need help on and that should remain one of their strengths Skinks were born and bred to be chaff like literally we have a race Genetically modified to be chaff that was what they were created for So it feels like that's probably fine It's a thing Yeah, like let I don't I wouldn't change I don't know if I change almost anything about the skinks I'd fix the chameleon skinks so when they pop back up they have the normal restrictions Beyond that, you know, like because right now they don't want to be very popping into combat They're just very dumb in how they can pop up right now for no reason like obviously just it should go without saying modernize the rules Right, like that's just a baseline, of course, you know Things that don't say unmodified now say unmodified Like let them pop up within six Like you don't have to do the full nine you could do six for them Because they in like but make their blow darts eight inches or whatever so they could still pop up and do do range Yeah, sure. I'd be okay with that breaking it like some of the stormcast Yeah, uh vanguard chamber or whatever. Yeah, that's yeah Yep, I'm okay with that um Yeah, so I think that's kind of the the main that's the high level functions Uh, what do we think they're gonna do? I don't know Here's my prediction. You ready? Yeah It'll be they won't cut any models. It'll be like it'll be like the scaven book It's gonna uh, that doesn't mean it's gonna be power level this cave and I'm saying remember according to our three release structure There are three types of releases And stamen is the type where nothing gets cut and everything sticks and you just re-release it with a book with all that and you get nothing new That's my prediction Now I do think they'll make sores to wound dudes I do think that'll happen They've always been on the upper end of toughness Like traditionally things like temple guard back in warmer fantasy were very tough A thing that they have consistently shown that they will do is go back and look at the history of the game Right. Yeah, and yeah appeal to that when in informing their new design that has been consistent across many books, right? and so I think that will be uh That'll be something they do like sores will end up with two wounds Um, I don't think they'll be as tough as I I trotted them out though That's that's my personal prediction, but I don't think we'll get any new models Yeah, I mean maybe um I would love a As much as I think you're right Uh, I would love like a partial rebuild Yeah, that's what I would like. Um, where they kill um Where the first source they keep temple guard they keep all the plastic kits Uh, like all the big not the plastic a lot of it is plastic But what I mean by that is like you keep base skinks you keep temple guard. You keep all the big monsters um, and then they release a Uh, a troll size box for a croxagore. Um And they release a um A dual box here we go of of uh of knights Uh, which either have sores riders that are like heavy knights or skink riders that are fast scouts better like like teeny weenies Yeah, yeah, I love teeny weeny. He was awesome And then you maybe introduce one or two more heroes So like a partial like a two box a couple hero rebuild and then a coaling of the line Gotcha I could go either way if you asked me though, I'd call it 70 my personal odds would be like 70 30 on the On the first right. I agree. I agree. But the the reason why like let me let me like get meta about this with regard to releases I think the reason why we've seen like this was the first book that dropped. Remember that sure sure sure Yep, and yet it's going to be probably one of the last books to be updated in this edition I could only Suspect that's because we actually have model designs come Maybe I'm wrong. Could be that's Perfectly reasonable guess But because of the lead times on doing models is so much more significant Like look at the books that we got early the books that we got earlier were things that basically got no models or one model Yeah, sure Sure, uh, like you're scaven and your fbc and then we got uh, we got trees Yep, we got fire slayers like none of that had real model pounds. Um And then so like there was that that was all low hanging fruit And so I suspect that we're gonna see um We'll see models with um What we may see models with serif on Um, that's actually a really good thought. I hadn't considered from that angle. All right. I moved my prediction to 60 40 Okay, there you go. All right. Cool. Let's move on next Uh next song next, uh k o What's their current weaknesses? Uh, it's a one-dimensional army.  They have no melee capability and no casting Yep, and no anvils and the shooting phase alone isn't enough to actually stop my and the shooting The shooting phases is their strikers, right? And the boats are still either not damaging enough or still overcosted like they're their battleships that should be like Truly frightening are still underwhelming and I would argue that Uh, their hero selection is still way too one-dimensional as well right like what I mean by that is What are their good heroes beyond the endrin rigger?  What's the good hero chemist? Yeah, that's I meant Yeah, the chemist. Yeah, um keep their good. That was guy straight. I mean they have other heroes and I know what all of them do But I I take your meaning. Yeah, um Uh, very limited battle line is also a weakness Right like they're they it's it's arco or go Right, like it's the worst So it's just like it is a so that that's I mean the the limitate like it's the One of the coolest modern armies that's been made design wise model aesthetically it is On point right right top to bottom looks fantastic cohesive Cool, you need. Yep. Compounding. Yep. Yep. Yep, right. So we're nailing it there Okay But we've I mean after rules change after rules change after rules change They just got beaten down and mixed around and switched up I mean, they're just they're taffy that's been pulled apart too many times, right, right like they don't like They can kill some stuff But if they do it's uninteractive and it's like it's literally like often a coin flip of either you win on turn one or you lose Yeah So All right, so how do we fix them? How would we fix them? I want to actually start here real quick I just want to get one thing out Yeah Did you ever see the story about survivor bias where they show planes and bombers that had come back in world war two And examined like where they had taken fire, right? Yeah. Yeah, I don't want to get into the lesson that teaches It's a very important lesson about survivorship bias But the point is those planes would get torn up Okay Like they would take tons of fire and they would still get back Okay, like yeah now you're not saying you couldn't blow planes out of the sky plenty of of bombers and savvy bombers and stuff like that crash Okay, right But like those planes could take a huge amount of fire to lots of areas of the ship and still remain completely functional and fly Right. Yeah, as long as like basically the rudders were working and there was enough wing and there was like Half your engines or maybe a little more you could Limp back, right? Yep. Yep. Okay Yep To that end these things need to be way more resistant to damage So like either the ships need to get way more offensive to just be like Just dread knots that roll up and are just like Yep Like I want the scene from the battle star galactica pilot where adama says all stations Weapons free and you just see like all these guns come online and this Wall of fire comes out of her and just shreds a base star into non-existence That is what I want to feel when I go to that when I'm like shooting phase, right? Just like That's that's what I hear you. I hear you what I need to get way tougher I want the exodus scene from exodus 2 Where they airdrop into new caprica. Oh my god. Yes Absolutely This is just this could just turn into a tom and vince talk about the best scenes from the battle star galactica reboot All right, but yes, it should feel like that Right, like that's what I wanted Like don't don't get me wrong every time I played ko and I airdropped and deployed all my rigors Like that's what I was imagining was that the music from the Falling and all there all the ships are being deployed. Um It was worth it just for that and then you know, I'd win or lose. Um Maybe so here's here's how I think they should fix it By the way, the reason I say this because I think the boat should stay about the same cost. They should just be good Yeah, like I don't want them to get cheaper. I want most things in the game to get more expensive and just be better So here's my call The ships at least No, I'll say it. Um And a lot of people aren't going to agree with this. Uh, the ships should serve functions on the table. I agree Okay, and so here's how you do that gun haulers should be gun haulers optional battle line weapons platforms Yes, they should be all You know, like all weapons loose. They should they're an entire purpose Should be to unload lead into the enemy And to that end they should be hyper offensive Mid to short range guns Yep, they just and they can plow up pretty fast. They're not super tough Right there.  I think they're on a five up right now, which is inexcusable all things made of metal Completely should just be four up like that's that's a baseline guys I don't know how we looked at that model and said that's definitely a five up save This is the same armor as as the as like the girl in the bikini. No problem. Um So like yeah, just four up. They need no aftersave or something like that and then there's their give them all the gun quick ish All the guns they can walk up in like multi-fire cannons let off machine guns Give them a steam tank like profile as far as as far as uh weapons go, right? Yep. Yep And let them be battle in I agree That's a really important because steam tanks if I'm playing this I want to play fleet commander Like I want to be in control of a fleet like I want to feel that as an option for the army. Um So that's part one frigates should be the middle of the road ship I think they should be people haulers that are armed Yes, they should be right markers and disembarkers. That's who's actually carrying your troops to battle. Yep. Yep Yep, I agree with that completely They should be your ships that um, if any ships are using injured works to drop out of the sky. Those are your frigates Um, I I think and as gary first of all has pointed out. Um, I'm I'm really open to Some of them having garrisoning rules Sure, like the frigate being able to actually garrison people in it But I don't think that that's the frigate stop. No, no, no I think the frigate is like a like a people hauler Okay, so like it's not designed for people to garrison. It's designed to transport people It's a design to open up its bay and dump bodies Okay Right. All right, like that's that like that's its purpose because it's not it's not sturdy enough to be garrison. Okay Okay, um And then point the third, uh, your ironclad Uh, that should be the army's anvil Yeah, sure And the ironclad should not only be the anvil. It should be the thing that gets garrisoned. It should have true garrison And where you have people like bunkering down and and and pop an open the hatches in firing guns Yeah, see I like the I I'll be honest with you tom I don't I I would love it if the from my perspective. I mean, I get it. I get what you're saying Yeah, yeah, but my take on it would honestly be that the ironclad is more of a battleship than an aircraft carrier Okay, like the aircraft carrier is a step above that doesn't exist Okay, sure, sure uh, and the um I think we dropped for just a second there, but we're back. It was just a real quick thing. I don't know why yeah, um, but the uh The the ironclad is your gun platform.  Mm-hmm We're all we're all wonky now on my screen when I'm looking are we all weird? Yeah, I see that as well I don't know what's wrong. It'll catch up. We're still streaming. So that's fine. It's it's working. It's just all it's all jumpy It'll smooth out Sorry everyone. I don't know why Uh, but at any rate that's sort of I think hey there we go.  It should have the big guns the long guns maybe like you like you want it as as the like the battleship And I like I hear that like it should be the anvil of the army though Like I really believe that because I don't know what else is the anvil for the arm It could be an anvil. I'm okay with that. I just I'm just saying I don't want it to be garrisoned by a bunch of dudes Like that can all just be part of its guns I don't I don't want separate troops getting in it and being safe If you want to move people around you use a frigate. You see what I'm saying. Okay. That's okay.  Yeah, and okay. Yeah, I mean gary. I think that you know the land rate like gary makes an interesting Thing you're you're I think tom you're seeing it more as the land raider, right? Whereas Yeah, um frigates end up being more the mid-range tank the laser the razor backs whereas what I'm saying is I want the the ironclad. I want it to be more like a bane blade Right like that's what I want this thing to hit the table with Just like bring the long guns online and you just start like Shelling their line. I mean maybe I don't know like it can be tough. It can be super tough I'm okay with that. It should be Like definitely base three up and probably some kind of after save as well just to represent hitting getting into non vital areas Right, sure. Okay. Let's keep moving. Um arco Uh make that everybody now fits what are the options that comes in the box? Sorry about your life, but the three light skyhooks thing is gone It's now one if you already modded. I don't care. Just say it's a normal gun pick one do something That's just the nature of the world. Everything should match the kit. That's modern That's modern design and make all the guns actually useful by the by Like if they have these different guns, don't make it so the skyhooks are not all guns Like one of them is a melee weapon Again, you can complete we could completely change the rules around to how those things work. Okay Like thunders when I look at something like thunders that should be like your multi toolkit Lots of different interesting shooting unit and all the guns should actually be useful Well, yeah, I mean maybe I don't know like my frustration with it Like I just I think that it's a feel bad the way that all this design no matter what way you go And not just because like people are sad about how it's built I mean So what what you're telling me is that you want to have five different weapon profiles that you have to check and Roll for with all with special abilities. I'm not I'm not necessarily Because we could give them the ardboy's treatment But could you because then like then do does that just mean that they all have the same attacks? But then they do have different abilities Uh, it could mean like I could see several different ways we we uh We entertain us. Are we talking arco or thunder? Which one thunder thunder is right now It's what you're what I'm what so here's what I would argue for thunders Okay, yeah There are five different weapon types correct and there are enough for the the rifles to be armed on everybody So you have 10 weapon options by five rifles and then one of each of the others I yeah, okay, so what you change it to is two distinct Profiles that is to say like there are two special weapon profiles that have really unique interesting options, okay Vitter in there, whatever the most compelling ones out of the kit are And then you make the other stuff like all one ish profile that has a good decent thing Okay, so you've got two special weapons with special rules That's not too much to track for a unit like that and the rest all have like Like rifles blah and blah like just all their shooting weapons roughly work like this Okay, and it's all but like aesthetically that's weird because like one is a rocket launcher One is like an organ gun a handheld organ gun one is a one is a one it and like so that's the problem Is it like aesthetically it's just gonna feel weird One is a gas gun I guess but I mean to me they don't look that much different Well, then have you actually seen them with full armaments like have you ever seen a kit build out fully? Yes, it's on the cover of the box Yeah, it Yeah, um The cover of the box isn't all of them. It's the all default rifles. Um, it's the five same samey rifles. Um Yeah, I don't know I I think it it's a problem It's how do we solve the how do we solve the anvil problem beyond just an iron kite because pulling up a boat isn't enough Um, I I know what I would do. Okay. What's your solution? I would release a kit that is a mech dwarf Okay Like I would release I would read I would release a power armored war a power armor piloted by two dwarfs um That is that is it is itself a Like have one in the belly and then one in like the head spot Um, and that it is uh that it has like jump jets So it has like a probably a few strikes just put in the comments that I really like Which is later split into several different units The rifle unit as battle line and then a special weapon unit that's more elite where they keep like five distinct profiles And they're and then as gary said, they're more like, you know obliterators or something or the heavy weapon units in 40k where you've got like five dudes with five different weapon profiles And that's just accepted and you actually have two units out of that one kit And the thunders themselves just have like better more elite long range rifles But they're still battle line and then you have like a special weapons elite unit That actually can bring a bunch of stuff. I think that's a cool idea Maybe, uh, I mean, I wouldn't hate that. Um Uh, I yeah, maybe maybe. Yeah, I think that's really I like that a lot Uh, by the way, I think the other option is if we if you're not talking new kit Is uh, you've got to change sky wardens around to be your actual like melee handle And I could see that as well Because they they already have the potential to go that direction. That's kind of their point in the in the lore They're like the sort of defense or the elite guardian elite guardian people, right?  And then they become kind of an elite ish to wound mobile anvil cool. Yeah. Yep. No, I agree with that. Um Yeah, I definitely agree with that. I would say that uh Let's go back to arco because we haven't finished talking about them. Um, like They have to go back to the box. They do They have to go to the one gun per 10 of each The problem is is that like I don't know what that world looks like in their current lineup Um, because like it still has you with like one melee guy. That's weird Um, and then like two different types of guns Um, like I don't know how you balance that unit at its points Like without like truly tinkering with a bunch of other values like pistol shots and melee shots and and all that stuff Um, and so I just it's it's really hard for me to Uh Yeah I do the rust belt blacks met throughout a good idea that I like that the the idea of like a boarding party like heavy armor Shields and shotguns. That's a cool idea too. If we were going to get a new unit I always loved there was like an imperial guard unit That was kind of like that that like the storm troopers that would jump down and were like had all these shotguns You could just blast up the enemy with it like very short range So it's like ultra short range shooting, but you just kind of drop them in and then uh You just kind of drop them in and then they can they just spread damage in this real close Thing, right? I think that'd be a cool take and the right answer is like if you were to have a unit like that That is your like your your thunderer gun unit That is that the because all the specialized weapons like they are the boarding party Yeah, they could become an anvil as well, right? Like that's they are already in very quite heavy armor as they're as they're portrayed So you could just right them up, right like and if you did that like you could have them like You could do a bunch of different fun things with them Like as gary said instead of shooting instead of fighting in combat as an amble they shoot in combat So they use their shooting profile in melee combat. Okay So they they like and then your abilities could like they already have some melee debuffing so you could you could like integrate into them both passive debuffing and Um and like shooting shooting short range like stuff shotgun stuff in melee Um and that could potentially like serve that function on the battlefield. Um In the essence of time we need to move on and we two are get to zinch We don't have a lot of time, but is there anything quick you want to say on the end of of uh of them? Uh, I you know, I don't know how gw is going to fix this. Uh, I think that I think that it's just it's a problem across the board. Um, and I don't know how we split the baby on arco um as a unit because of like I don't know how you make them work their points With the what with what you're trying to do with them because the problem is is that the game demands specialized units Yeah, sure, but i'm okay with them having a generic ish battle line Like that that's just kind of some shooting and a tiny bit of melee as like I they should always be weaker in melee Just not roll over completely and die like they are now You could have more specialized battle line if units and I'd be okay with that like take the skywardens change their roles I like take the thunderers change their role and you could fit those into the specialized slots And your generic battle line is just kind of Generic and it's kind of a multi-purpose toolkit of this like core military isk unit And i'm okay with that because then still like 10 packs and stuff like that can be useful They can put out some supporting shots. They become a supporting unit to your stronger focused units Right, and I'm okay with that if that's the way they go But then that means you need to hand out battle line to three or four different units, which I completely agree It should be done. I don't think they're going I wardens in a case and gun haulers at minimum. Yes Yes, like I agree with that. Um, I don't think they're going to we'll see that's that's my fear Yeah, our actual predictions are we don't even know and I I I hope I don't think they're going to get new models I hope they do some of the stuff we're talking about with the boats But I think that the boat will still not get to redesign as much and And what agreed and we have the technology now to like make boats heroes And not like break them, you know, like totally Hero version of a boat. Yep, right like I don't know why we don't have like named ships Yeah, hero names like names. Yeah, it happened a hundred percent Right. Yep. Like zinch What's zinch is current problem? Here you go. I'll start it's a mess Change host is the opposite of fun. A bunch of their rules are just messy and way too over complicated and overwritten Like yes, they're the schemey army and they need to have cleverness to them And I agree they should be on the upper echelon of complexity, but some of this stuff is just obnoxious Okay rapid fire destiny dice. Yes or no. Yes um Summoning As it currently is yes or no Yes with modifications Okay, um Spell dominance. Yes or no A hundred percent. Yes. One of the one of the chaos is lord of magic Right every every faction has one lord of magic that's vying for the title. This should be chaos is Um Orders is the aforementioned serif on by the way, right? Okay, uh new endless spells. Yes or no Uh, yes a hundred please that would be great I would love some endless spells if anybody should have endless spells It should be them and they should have many special abilities with them Okay Oh, by the way, they should have a version of whatever that dumb soul bound thing was that the dobi are gotten They didn't need and shouldn't have had Uh, so out of out of out of character for that army. So what is the problem with their units? Let's talk about that first Yeah, sure. A lot of their units are just useless and we never talk about them screamers Flamers, right? Those just aren't even in the discussion. Yeah, right. Yeah Uh, their their existing units are annoying as all get out They just like they induce bad play almost from the time you put them down Pink's being wizard a battle line wizard that also then spawns into Second and now third versions of itself Yeah, right just these gummy gummy gum drops Yeah, right that are just so annoying to plow through and feel absolutely unrewarding to fight, right? Yep. Yep um They're the We've classically had a lot like enlightened and skyfires and all that have always been off kilter Yeah, uh The most of their heroes are actually kind of interesting like most of those just need tweaks Like the cursing and the fate master and the ogre dominatars and all that stuff. There's plenty of interesting xinx heroes I actually like most their heroes. I think the chicken is pretty good Uh, he probably needs a little bit of of change and modification and update, but the chicken's in it, you know decent um But so like I have no problem with with with death chicken It's mainly their actual stuff is is just not compelling right, so like zangor Probably are pretty close to right for that army. They're just the base regular zangor, you know the yeah zangor um The enlightening skyfires need to come toward each other Yeah, right. Yeah, and just like find some happy middle ground Where one of them is not just clearly undercosted and one of them is way overcosted Sure, uh, the archonite cultists like the base dudes need to have some kind of purpose in the game Right, uh, they suffer from the ko problem right now. They're roleless right now. Yeah, just no reason to get that That's what i'm like That's what my concern was with the company is that like what the company will become are what are like archonite cultists currently are And I have no idea how to fix the Uh, I have no idea how to fix the pink blue brimstone problem. I'm not sure we haven't dug ourselves into a hole We can't dig ourselves out of now, but I am I'm keen for solutions I'm fine with the summoning situation I am I I just I hate unit replacement junk happening all right there like where they're popping into each other So can I can I Maybe it's just cleaner rules on how that all happens. I don't know maybe can I throw out a different solution then? I'm ready, man Give them a unit regen okay But they regen lesser models okay Yeah Like at in the battle shock they get to just restore x number of models, right or something like that Like so for like so so like wind sometime let's let's imagine this um You summon pinks and the rule says something like in your hero phase return two models to this unit um If you have any uh remaining pink pinks You return blues And if you have and if you do not then you return brimstones Then you return brimstones and they just just have lesser profiles and it basically says like if you have pinks remaining Like it has a special rule of like powerful something any time you remove a model Like you have to remove if there's pinks you have to remove a pink model until all the pinks are gone And they have to remove all blue models so all blues are gone and then you have to move friends to all Friends are gone. Sure. I'd love to see so so let's talk about let's let's fit some stuff to roll here Because I don't want to bog down in in that Uh, I think that screamer should come back and actually do something. It's cool kit. They're really unique looking models I've also thought they were the coolest thing in the range. Yep. And what I would love to see them be is fast chaff slash anti chaff Sure, okay, where they can just pass over things shred them to death You know basically make it so if anything has all your chaff units if anybody has like a five or six armor They can literally just mortal wound them to death make it almost a reverse of metal cruncher Right where like if they pass over them then you get you get and they have a five or six save You do like d three mortals. Otherwise, you just do one Make it super fast and stuff like that. Can I jump in real quick? Matt Davidson has a point and I love it. Um, how about we just do this as soon as the pink unit dies Set down a blue unit of appropriate size within nine inches of a hero Once that blue unit dies set down a broom and just get rid of all of your stuff Oh all the model to model and just make it like a chunk to chunk replacement. I love that idea. Yeah. Thank you matt davison That's exactly right. Yes, beautiful. Beautiful. Yep. Yep. So when the pinks die, then you set down you auto summon a unit of blues Uh, yep Flamers should be Cheaper and put out a ton more shots all without rend Yep, okay Like make them the scrap launchers of the army as a fact Right where they are like just a way to just they just throw out tons of shots Just tons and tons and tons of shots, right? Not like I mean even said they're never going to be You know, uh bone split is kind of weight of dice. It's still a small number of thing But give them like five or six shots a piece They should be like the hurricane crossbows nine shots model. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah put them on like, yes That's a great. That's a great analogy tom. Make them the hurricane crossbows where it's tons of no-rend shots Right. Yeah. Yep Yep, I could do that or or Uh, you turn them into truly like warp flame for their ours Well, no make the exalted one that because remember there's the regular flamers and the exalted flamer The exalted flamers are your short range like warp fire dudes that just literally go up and like melt with real short range Just like Mortal fire. Yep. Okay. I could see that There you go Uh, and then I think that's like as far as magic goes again. They are in a good place I would want to see them get get there in the spells and really be Frightening in what they can do with endless spells, right? Um as well as being able to steal spells and all the stuff they can currently do, right? All that kind of wonky stuff. They should be a real threat in the in the magic base Right. Yep. Where they're just dominating where they're moving. Uh, they're moving Um and the spells around the board other people's and the spells Right They could have rules that like they can jump the line like a command ability that lets them be used A command ability that can be used outside the turn order when you're moving predatory endless spells Right. Can I can I ask a question? Um, so for destiny dice Uh, what if we added additional functions like first of all you would you keep destiny dice at fixed numbers? Yes, I like that or would you or would all the current destiny dice stuff Would you say that they're that you could you say that that you sacrifice them for re-rolls? No, I like them as they currently are. I think they're really good I think they're narratively appropriate and it is a very exhaustible resource Like if you want them to refill you've got to really invest in that Right. Sure. And I don't disagree with that. So what if you actually added additional functions for that? Okay, like like spending a destiny dice to move endless spells or do things like that Oh, that'd be cool. Sure. Where you could burn one off to do these other things. Yes I love that almost like the corn bloodtide where it has these two purposes, right? Yeah, I dig that because then that'll also give you use because you don't always have a use for the ones and two Sometimes you can use it to auto pass battle shocks and garbage like that and that's fine But it's still be exciting to be able to to drop those and be like the spell on endless spell or moving endless spell As though it was moving. Yeah, that'd be real cool. I would I would support that. That's a great idea, Tom Zang Other than that, I think they're you know, they have a good model range. They're in a pretty decent point They have some good hammers. They have some good stuff. By the way, the the you know Like it really just needs a lot of cleanup in that regard I would just hear in our last couple minutes. I would say the same thing about nergal Nergal needs a yeah toward Obviously toward the 2.0 rules do things like move blight kinks on unmodified all that kind of standard stuff And then a lot of it is just like slight tweaks On a few war scrolls to make them more up to up to snuff and fit to purpose They don't feel true that even though they technically are a 2.0 army They don't feel like it at this point and the same thing with with legions of the gosh Sure, they don't feel like 2.0 armies now. I think you could see new versions of those two in 2020, but it's not like Nergal probably needs it more than lol But lol just kind of needs a general cleanup because of the death. Yeah that have come out sense Well, lol needs lol needs the obr treatment and so like your legions And I would say this thing about night haunt like your legions just need to be their own books So like legion night haunt needs to just be legion of grief Sure And obr is the is functionally the legion of whatever of the one more part the legion of Whatever he's called. He's a more part of something But that's my point is that like you just make those things what they are and lean into that Yeah, um rather than making them like a singular monolithic army that then has its hands tight Sure Yep, and but I think like when you look at something like nergal and legions It's really a lot of like rules cleanup making them modern And then probably adding some more punch to a few units that need them right like here and there like Some of the stuff just isn't as damaging. It's probably should be for what it is Right. That's that's the concern Uh, yeah, there you go. Oh as far as zine shack lights if you never actually solved Uh, I I think you should just make them the marauder like chap unit where they're but they give them a decent shooting attack Have them be like nothing in melee and they can throw their little flamey flames around Um, but that's what they are Better better versions of the flamey flames is what I'm saying like improve the flamey flame So it's a thing you actually care about like that's what they do well Do you see what I'm saying? Right now that shot isn't any good. It's not worth taking a unit of them. It's 18 at 18 inches fours and fours Yeah, like that's what marauders are like that's their numbers But they don't there's no buff for that to make that all like you could turn marauders into some hot death in melee Right as we've seen what I'm saying is synergistically that shooting needs to be able to achieve the same stuff Okay, yeah, you know what I'm saying like make it so you can go in on that as a strat To where that like those guys running up and throwing the fireballs actually becomes real scary Yeah, and as as I agree with paul I think norgal needs some work on like contagion like the way that contagion Oh, they're summoning. Yeah, they're summoning is super underwhelming and complicated and annoying to track. Yeah, I agree with that That's a good call All right, tom that brings us to the end. There you go Uh, we fixed it. So hopefully they listen to this and just update the books There you go. Go ahead and call those back from the printer Make some quick updates We're good to go problem solved 2020 best year ever All right Very good They have a lot to live up to since 19's been so good. It has been really good and I'm super looking forward to it Uh, we will be back next week. We're gonna do a fun show where we're gonna get real nerdy So if you want to get deep into the nerdom get ready for next week because we are going to go Deep into design and then the week after that We will be breaking down those slaves to darkness and all celebrating under our new grand marshal of the apocalypse Lord of the ever-chosen RK on so uh at any rate. Thank you all for watching. We really appreciate it as always We'll see you next wednesday