Welcome to start up the storefront presented by or a Bora All right, welcome to the podcast on today's show with Steven for you all my sport that you almost sport perfect Oh for the English folk free. We don't know what does the brand do? Yeah, so the brand. Yeah. WOMO means men Italian So I was trying to actually kind of hark on the days when you know clothing was Italian was made in Italy A lot of it bella Italy, so I wanted a you know I was trying to figure out what could the name be I wanted something clean with the letters I just I was actually in a restaurant in New York and WOMO means man So you'll see WOMO or Donna on a bathroom door So it actually was in a restaurant and saw the name and said that if we put like sport together like Prada sport WOMO sport could be interesting, so I kind of just kind of like the way it sounded I like the way the letters look together So that's how I kind of came up with it for it was almost going to be a French brand So it was actually at rolling I like the E chose Italy for my wife and her family They're very Italian the one thing I've always I mean I've gotten a tennis recently six seven years ago Awesome, and I'm addicted. I became addicted very quickly coaching the whole thing every day a little and at some point I really realized there's a real fashion gap here with tennis in particular And it's then I think it starts with the sneakers the sneakers are the most obvious example of we're missing the mark And then it just continues to everything else and it's really interesting right where it's almost like You're almost better off wearing something you'd wear to the gym t-shirt style with some wick fabric But it's not classy. It's not elegant It's not like golf attire and there was a like a huge hole and it's been bothering me for a while You're so you guys came along and I was like finally somebody's doing something about back classic timeless brand I think you know getting back to God I was in Capri, and it was a hotel that had this book the most interesting awesome Italian seeing all the players the way they carried themselves the Panetta the way they all dressed It was unreal I mean it was so stylish and so fashionable and so chic and so cool Why you know when the great brands have so much admiration for Fila to Keeney a less They made such high quality stuff that I wasn't thinking tennis at all growing up And I had a beautiful a less polo. I had a tecchini track suit and the quality if I had it today It's still completely hold up You know so I think that when some of those brands put it on players some of the players Succeeded McEnroe succeeded tremendously, you know wearing tecchini Borg wearing Fila Pat cash wearing a less and then they just I guess ran into some problems because the players became popular And obviously you know way back in the day when Stan Smith's agent made the deal for him with the Adidas Stan Smith, we got a piece of it I think that brands weren't able to financially Live up to the deals with the players when they started winning grand slams and getting prize money So I think that's what it actually kind of became Nike great running gear company Got into tennis so a lot of brands have actually kind of rushed in to tennis didn't really think about tennis That much or really kind of understand or study You know I I was at the US Open when I was 12 years old And I was actually at a tennis academy in Cheshire, Connecticut called the wing on tennis Academy And it was all dressing all white, but the cool thing about is they get my brother and I I don't know how we got clubhouse passes to the US Open and we were in the clubhouse with Stan Smith, Nostazi, Ash And for me, you know, I was really kind of really at the basketball growing up and loved, you know The basketball players and their uniforms and how they looked and you know The game like Puma Clyde's came along or like the Pro Keds just really Very stylish, you know the way some of these players You know Adidas superstars and Adidas pro models Just the shoes and and just the style the colors and I was just really wildly wildly wildly into it So then I saw these athletes in the you know in the clubhouse at Forest Hills the US Open And they were they were the coolest athletes. They they all Nostazi was wearing this brown with tan stripes Stan Smith looked very fresh very all-american Arthur Ash had this polo with the placket that was part of the polo and these guys just had such style And it just it stayed with me forever. It's just I never forgot it I said these are the I said to myself I said these are the coolest athletes of any sport The way these guys these guys I don't even know if they even knew how cool they were but these guys were Personality the charisma that they walked into a room There's an iconic status. Yeah, all of them It wasn't like today you think about two three four guys Maybe you think about a little bit obviously and those guys are starting to fade away a little bit obviously, you know what what Rafa has done is unbelievable and what Federer has done is unbelievable and You know Andy Murray what he's done is unbelievable But you know now it's kind of a younger generation. So where's this younger generation? Where are they gonna go with style and fashion? I mean, it's cool that we're seeing now You know with a yonic center. I think it's the most amazing style. I think he's the next Federer I think so too. I think this guy is the coolest guy Gucci bag coming to center court.  But how did you decide to get did you realize how important it was that you needed to get an athlete pretty quickly? And just from a business perspective to give listeners like a window into maybe not so much how much money you It was it were really required to take this thing off, right? And so one thing you're doing is you have to commit to a line of clothing You're obviously moving into women's apparel now and so to a small entrepreneur This might seem like a large upfront cost to an experienced entrepreneur It might be what's required and then ultimately also you have to have the ability to get athletes You have to to win right just after I mean really what it comes down to is getting people to believe in you To believe in the confidence to believe in the style to see the passion that I have and I'm you know, I'm looking from their passion my passion and I'm looking for that marriage together and I got very lucky with Jensen. First of all, he was overlooked You know, this kid was number one in the United States in the 12s 14 16 18s, you know He pretty much won everything, you know, he won Orange Bowl. He was number one college recruit in the country and He's you know, he grew and he you know, he beat five of the top ten players as first year on the tour You know, there were some mistakes along the way They're fixing some things right now, but great great agent behind him Who's really believes in him? So we're very much on the same page his agent and I his agent believes in the brand His agent realizes that you know, he could get lost at being at you know Another one of these brands he's gonna get a lot of attention. He's gonna get a lot of care He's gonna have to be involved. That's interesting. Okay, and you know, just really behind him I mean literally and you sold that story or did they just understand it? They understood it He really they understood it He got you know for very you know We insured him for bonuses and he reached a number of the bonuses. We you know, we paid him some money I actually brought an investor onto the brand because he really put us on the map when he played Novak Jokovic he won the first set six one. I'll never forget that he played perfect tennis perfect strategy He was very tired up to that because he had some pretty big wins. Yeah, and yeah He was just unbelievable in this first set. So in the first hour one hour We got actually 162 online orders in one hour. So you saw it in real time. We saw it in real time I think you know, I don't know if it's really legal to say this night Actually Brad Gilbert gave us a shout out and said like you know that brand or something with California or Malibu that kid from NorCal because Brad's from NorCal So I think he kind of yeah I think Brad wants to see what Jensen's gonna do now with the injuries and overcoming the injury injuries He said, you know, he's got a very very very high IQ He's working really hard right now, you know getting over the surgeries. When did you sign him? I signed him when he was basically before he had turned pro. He was about to turn pro And college actually he never got to play for Baylor.  He wins like, you know, he's in five challengers I think I think he won four I think he was in a final on the other one and then he went into playing on some other Surfaces he's never even played on before and reached, you know reached the finals and some pretty major tournaments Yeah, so he just so you got him early. Okay, he knows how to he knows how to fight He knows how to win and he's going to get in your head. He's a very hard kid to beat Yeah, you're gonna have to go out there and really, you know, really play incredibly well That's pretty good timing though in terms of I remember we were talking to a doctor jason Orslander from therabotty And we when he had him on the podcast He had just signed his first athlete and it was Colin Morakawa the golfer And I think he had just graduated college and then he goes on the win the us open Almost immediately thereafter and I think from that success now he's got f1 You know theragun's got or therabotty has all these athletes all of a sudden But the first one they spent a lot of due diligence on was Colin And it was crazy how quickly that worked out. Yeah, you know translating a tennis player into a you know building the success of a bram You know, I think it's almost like people talk about You know awareness and influencers and all that kind of stuff You know a lot of it you want to be as true to the brand as possible because if you know, I have an influencer next day They're being paid to Handle another brand.  We're actually going to getting into business with a hockey player So who wore one of our polos playing golf and he's a 25 year old hockey player I guess I can announce who he we're actually working on it right now. His name is Clayton Keller And he's signed a very very very lucrative contract with the arizona coyotes And he's really into fashion. He's 25. He's an all-star. He's massive contract his agents reached out to me one day And I'm I don't follow hockey that much, but I'm going to start to follow it more Makes sense. He's an he's an awesome guy So what does he say? He's like, hey, I don't hockey player but he plays golf and he likes your stuff Yeah, and it's yeah, and I guess well, you know, how do we translate that? So So yeah, so the agents said the agents were amazing like let's get this in the arena So we're going to get it into the arena Let's get it into his club called silver leaf And then we're going to start marketing him with it. I actually want to put him With some of the tennis players. I'm hoping he'll come to indian wells for a shoot Now put him like get him out there playing golf with thomas burditch Or you know pat cash or a couple of these other you know guys who You know we're four in the world or pat one wimbledon You know thomas burditch is a you know legend and a great looking guy and one of the coolest guys out there Turning into a great coach. So I'm glad that some of these guys, you know are it's giving back, you know, so Yeah, you know financially, it's a tough business You know, it's a tough business, you know when you you can get on people's minds Obviously, there's some amazing things that I can't even believe it that are even happening What I'm really hoping for at the end of the day here and I had a conversation yesterday with ryan mccally I'm hoping there's a tournament los angeles a real tournament los angeles. It's a shame. You can't believe The people that live here and people like i'm talking about even if they don't live here Bill ackman bill gates Some passionate guys who get up every day and play tennis like let's Have a tournament here. Let's keep tennis healthy alive. Let's bring american tennis You know, it's turn it on its on its head and make it what it should be what it was And it's like you walk into the labor cup. I was just there You know got to meet roger and talk to him for a little bit amazing what he's done But why can't we have something here in the us when you walk into Curated event with rod labor and all the history and the labor cup and what they've done but the history of You know jimmy conners and john mackin row Like you walk into a curated room with with you know, you go into john's academy in new york and you see all this But jimmy conners.  There's billy gene king There's such legendary icons behind this sport, but why don't we have a tournament here? Why you know, obviously indian wells Amazing what what larry ellison's done there? But there's so many powerful. There's an opportunity you're saying bill and these people look at it like an opportunity of How do we get this thing to connect here? How do we get these guys together to believe in all right, you know new york los angeles Obviously indian wells.  I mean, he's here if he could just show up Yeah, and if you just you know it in at at the us open last year when you had bradley cooper there and you had brad pit there And you had leonard de caprio there and you know brad was at wimbledon They're getting into it. They're into it. They love watching the sports one of the greatest sports to watch And I think I believe that getting back back on the clothing You know, I what I see today unfortunately is like you see tennis players. They look like they're going to play On center court in a grand slammer look like they're going out to a practice court in a park It's kind of strange the calico colors this year of a certain big brand were very strange to me I mean, it's and the sleeveless they're trying to make they're just trying to get noticed these brands and tennis is a small Blip on the map of so many of the respective to their other other Other sports. It's you know, it's a huge sport internationally. It's huge And I think that you know the racket technology what's going on right now With tennis More people are playing tennis now. Obviously pickleball is another that's a whole another conversation But I think that tennis is growing in a in a major way and people love watching it and see these celebrities coming out People supporting the sport seeing other athletes, you know, seeing formula one guys seeing hockey players seeing Obviously, you know laver cup, you know the dirk and um, steve gnash steve gnash is really into tennis Really into probably he's really good too. I mean, he's yeah, he's gotten pretty good pretty quick Yeah, I mean obviously the sadness of kobe who was just kind of getting into tennis and You know, I think the athleticism of tennis. I mean today You know the power of the I mean the rackets the technology the strings the spins the I mean, it's it's it's unbelievable I mean, if you you know, you're seeing a you know the racket, you know Forehand or backhand to speed the 120 30 40 miles an hour serve. You can barely see the ball It's a tough sport when you think about pickleball or even padel Does it give you an opportunity or do you see an opportunity in that from a branding perspective? I do I'd be you know to overlook pickleball would be really dumb So I'm trying to get involved now in I actually went to the pickleball draw in las vegas. I was trying to kind of you know, learn about it What I'm hoping with pickleball is that obviously it's played in all these incredible clubs all over the country That players actually want to show up and look good in pickleball clothing. It's such a social sport And there's a lot of I was just at a pickleball cancer charity benefit For me on a tennis court, you know and obviously tennis you've got to be very quiet when you're hearing for the players the respect of the players You know, if it's a let you want to you know, you just want to really hear the ball hear it off their racket There's an etiquette that exists an etiquette. Yeah, I think with pickleball. I'm not sure it's such a social thing Right. There's no I I could never I actually tried playing it one or two times But playing it around a lot of people and it's very loud. It's I you got to I mean, it's any sport It's like, you know, the professional ping pong players It's pretty quiet in there I don't know what the what the etiquette really is of of pickleball yet how that's actually gonna I don't think it translates that great on television. Yes. I think it's fun to watch I think it's fun to play a lot of people I know in the television world that they'll basically say like I don't need to watch myself or a version of Myself play pickleball. Right. It's not that cool. The guy doesn't look that inspiring. There's a cool guy Matt Manasseh I don't know if you've interviewed him. I mean, he's pickleball to the stars He really kind of Put Hollywood and pickleball on the map here and he really got a lot of people very very very interested I think he's going to be Commentating on tennis channel pickleball And obviously a lot of great athletes are getting involved with pickleball with the teams You know, it is exciting. You know, I guess there's there's two leagues that are joining each other now It is exciting. I'm actually kind of interested and I actually when I started the brand I had a meeting with Henri Laconte former french tennis player And he was talking about padelle padelle padelle padelle And I kind of overlooked padelle. Yeah, but padelle is a very cool sport It's apparently overtook tennis as the most popular racket sport in spain. It's a very very very very very athletic interesting cool sport That I think it's going to take off In the united states obviously pickleball I think so too. Yeah, we just had this conversation But when you think about this in a in a real way, so we have obviously the the birth and a massive growth of pickleball Old sport, but it's taken off since the pandemic and then I think about what's happened globally And so padelle is winning that battle Easily when it comes to racket sports like padelle and then tennis and pickleball is kind of a distant cousin I wouldn't even say it's a race But in america pickleball has won and so when you think about this long term, do you think Let's say you're a board member at latc and you have to decide the future Do you do pickleball and padelle? Okay? I think I think I'm actually talking to a neighbor of mine Who has a very very very cool space? Turning it into a padelle. I really believe that playing tennis next to a pickleball court Is really annoying the sound of it when you're playing tennis is really tough I really believe that there should be separate pickleball facilities I don't think a tennis club like LA tennis club Should be bringing in pickleball. It's a pure incredible iconic tennis club. That's a tennis club So I think Obviously real estate they all want to play. It's it's an easier on the body sport I'm just not a fan of taking some of these clubs reducing the tennis courts and turning them into Pickleball. I'd like to see some incredible Facilities, there's a company called reserve. It's building some stuff in You know in new york with padelle and pickle and it's a very very cutting edge Group of guys good branding good branding. Yeah, so I think that I think it should live in its own space In my opinion when I think about your brand it feels more padelle to me oddly enough I mean it feels higher quality higher and it's really nice pushing in that direction. I'm really interested I'm really kind of learning about I'm hoping to do this all-star padelle Event that's coming up Like like a all-stars or just like celebrity plus all-star. I think it's like the best padelle players compete against each other I don't think it's a celebrity thing It's actually going to happen in san diego run by ryan redondo and jim courier's company called inside out sports They do a lot of the events. I've been aligned with them on a number of events I've been very fortunate This brand exists only because of because of one thing it exists because of Truly my friends who have gotten behind the brand started wearing the brand You know built out of a very grass roots Group of people that have been super loyal to me There's a guy here toby krabel Who's so passionate? I think he's he's the number one tennis player in the united states 65 and under and over I think he's a little under that. I think he could actually compete at you know with the 50-year-old players He's amazing and he has basically an academy and he brings in like I had Nicholas on agro wearing some stuff. He brought on agro in trained with him He has a guy brian debaul who works with him and his son and a bunch of kids and and he really is very serious because Tennis is great for life.  So Tennis is the culture of guys. I mean I play I have a hundred guys part of our team womo group of guys That we play live ball, you know, um, obviously I've done it actually at latc. We've taken two courts We had 16 20 guys two coaches And then we all go to dinner after but yeah every saturday we play, you know When I'm usually around or there's a just amazing amazing group of coaches that are all incredible That's smart when it comes to the brand what's been the most challenging part? So you got brooks when you mentioned you got some sales come and you probably got some sales after Let me be like for that week maybe for a couple months after but yeah, it's been it's been I think you know getting it out there. We dressed the pepperdine team You know seeing the kids wear it all around malibu is it's it's very cool and great great coaches great group of kids Is it just a lot of marketing or is it like word of mouth? It's a lot of marketing. It's constantly creating content It's staying on people's minds You know not ever relying on one thing always having the next thing the next thing the next thing the next thing Eventually for it to catch on I think doing some of the um digital marketing stuff is is hard You know, I think that it doesn't always necessarily translate into Dollars and do you have a team? We have a team. We want to we want to create a great brand at the end of the day We don't have the means of you know any of these massive brands But I think the brand is growing and it's growing tremendously and it's becoming it's becoming very successful in a lot of ways for a lot of reasons Like we're very lucky with tennis warehouse Now we're actually going into i'm actually doing a press conference in mexico. I'm going to get involved with uh tennis depot who is going to take the brand under their wing and really get behind the brand and start building the brand in mexico They have great stores. They have they're building the online model like tennis warehouse tennis warehouse is a They've helped the brand it actually did some very interesting marketing behind the brand It's isn't that funny to think about where it's like you go to places like london or mexico And you'll see a tennis store every every street. Yeah But you think you even think about that america. It's a bygone bad thing You don't see I mean you go into westwood sporting goods, you know, they string racket. You gotta go see brad and malibu to get some gear Yeah, it's it's it's strange. I mean that that that classic tennis shop. I think it could exist I actually like you know, there was a there was an amazing store in Beverly Hills That had all these casini all these incredible brands. It was ski and tennis. It was super chic. I mean had the best Ski clothes the best tennis clothes. There's more of a 70s thing I actually think that could come back, but I wouldn't take a risk What I would do is I think that you know like skiing is somewhat seasonal tennis is somewhat seasonable We want to create some style lounges. We want to create some very cool things around tournaments Um, and I think to do some pop-ups do a pop-up in the hamptons Do a pop-up on madison avenue during the week of the u.s. Open invite some amazing people there talk about strength and conditioning Talk about nutrition You know have people that don't want to be you know In fleshing meadows the whole day They're there in new york for the week or two weeks to see some tennis You know could be an amazing environment to create something where they can come in and you know Have a very healthy juice bar and just you know have tennis on all the time back to that brand building piece. Yeah So these are these are things that there's just there's a lot. There's so much opportunity There's so many ways to create Something that people just aren't I think the standard way of building a brand doesn't really work You know you have to kind of keep it in a very organic way Where you just have to kind of go with the flow of things, you know I mean I was very lucky in indian wells jack mcfarlane god bless him He got behind the brand gave me one rack, you know, who is this guy? Why does he want to be here? I was very maybe a little bit aggressive about it because I wanted to kind of get this brand out there Now he walks around, you know He comes around this company now legends has done an amazing job with all the apparel at indian wells It's just first rate I think they're going to build some permanent buildings at indian wells instead of having the You know the tents the tennis warehouse tent and the legends tent You know the rackets and the strings the shoes and in three different tents I think it could be an amazing shopping experience. I would agree with that. Yeah, that makes sense Have the Rolex store there. I mean really make it elegant. I think we fit into that all of that very well Yeah And it matches the food. I mean the food obviously there is great too. So yeah, I mean obviously I hope wolfgang puck goes back. Please wolfgang go back and you know be on center court Wolfgang puck spago You know the nobu amazing to have nobu there and have its great chefs there It's a pretty first rate tournament. It's pretty amazing and the players love it Actually, they're going to have the college teams there a couple days before they compete against each other. So I'll be there with You know pepperdine guys, but I'll be there the whole two weeks in the retail store So yeah, they gave us one rack and then they gave us our own, you know Some major areas and now we have the women's brand. So we really want to we do very well in indian wells And I think we're going to do even better this year. We we make special things For indian wells. I I hope that um jensen is back and I hope that donna veckage I actually met donna veckage at indian wells. I said we can't call the brand Well, well because you're a woman that means man. So you have to come up with donna people think it's donna's own brand That's okay. She's buried behind the brand. She's done great things for the brand as well And when did the women's brand launch? Yeah, this woman's brand is actually kind of I really feel it's like kind of Evolving right now starting to kind of get out there a little bit You know we have to make the first pieces and kind of test it Like even like the men's pieces takes a while to get the pieces exactly You know the the short and all the details the fit You know perfect. I think we've really kind of gotten there with the men's polos the handleys the crews the shorts Yeah, this is the one I wear a lot. I have two of those I actually got one for my father-in-law. We were in a tournament together. And so we thank you We showed up matching I love how that happens. This is great. And he loved it. He's a Italian last name Cappellini And so that espresso fits into his brand perfectly. Yeah, yeah Yeah, so the women's brand is you know, we There were a lot of kind of thinking about the men's brand how to create the women's brand So when I was kind of when I was growing up Just remember all these fashionable women wore the word this brand alaya beautiful beautiful brand and I kind of thought about How do we make something like an alaya dress sporty? Like, you know the fit of it very kind of the way it fits women's bodies Um, so how do we turn that into a sports dress because I'm kind of you see so many women wearing leggings leggings leggings leggings leggings And they look great in a sporty dress You know the way it's tailored to their body to their back to their arms to their legs And I'm really hoping that this dress that we made four or five colors of it That it'll become something that becomes a piece that women who can look and feel sporty are wearing all the time I'm really hoping so i'm working on all those pieces. You know, you've got the The crop, you know, you've got the sleeveless top And I got to figure out what the what the um the demo is You know, you're selling it to clubs. Are you selling it to Young athletes or you're selling selling it to women in their 20s women in their 30s So i'm trying to navigate that and trying to right now to kind of test the waters and see where it really belongs I really would like the women's brand to be a very youthful brand I actually want the women's brand to be more 20s younger And so I want women to feel great and look great And feel confident and feel stylish So I think it's starting to there were a few women Even at this thing at mahal and tennis club this event. There were a few women Including my wife wearing it Like wow, that's really really chic. That's really beautiful So I think you know, I just want to kind of carefully it's interesting it too Where it's like the your materials are definitely better, but it's just one thing that you don't really It's it's weird to think about that where it's like people don't expect it Yeah, you know, and so if you if you throw some care into your materials all of a sudden people go Oh, that's a lot better than I thought it would have been right. It's like the floor is so low Floor is very the floor is honestly The stuff is so poorly made out there that they throw it out there and they mark it the heck out of it The most important thing is the product the product's got to be great I know even you know the the people behind our brand they really believe in the product They know the product is there. So I think it really kind of comes down to how we get ourselves out there Being smart marketing ourselves in an interesting way You know, it's just very important to people that are wearing it The key people wearing it that they look great. We have a young player from uh, Denmark We did a shoot with yesterday's names August Holmgren I think he was number one or two college player in the country and he's a strapping Six three great looking guy if you can make it He can really be you know, he's like, wow That could be one of the coolest guys out there if he was on the tour and he was top 20 in the world I think there's a lot of potential there with him I just want someone to walk on a tennis court and just to be have presence and have that charisma and have that cool thing that You know, even Andy Murray has that Novak looks great carries himself looks very smart isn't trying to be a 18 year old or 17 year old look that part Roger always knew how to look that part. So I think the players don't really know how to look that part I want to help them work with them to make them Feel and look that part because you're competing against another player. He's wearing the same outfit He's also six four You can't really determine who's who I don't think it helps the sport. I don't really think it's a great thing for A brand to have so many guys wearing the same clothing exactly like if I'm nick kereos who I adore He's an unbelievable athlete super super cool guy and really passionate about the sport I would work with nick so closely to create His style some of these players That walk out on a tennis court. I just don't think they know You know, I would agree with that they just they don't They're not thinking about it. No, they they could look so much better The stuff should fit them right if you come back a year from now, where do you think the brand is? How many athletes do you think you have? What does that look like to you? Listen? There's a lot of competition in this space But you know when the velver can bathing suit brand all of our brand came along you did a great job So I think there's so much. I think our brand can be the prominent premium Elite brand in the sport. I think it should be that I think it should be the highest quality brand I think it should be the lower piano Brunella Cuccinelli Of tennis I'd like to see the brand collaborate with a couple of these other brands because a couple of these other brands like thomas burditch Who was paid a lot of money to our h&m and they rushed into it or under armor. They rushed into it You know like designing the the short Took five years To get this short.  It's climate cool. It's really not It's like they're really buying inexpensive Fabrics are not spending the money on the fabrics. We spent a fortune On the fabrics because it's going on to an athlete They're the ones out there. They're the ones that are suffering out there when it's hot and humid And you know, they're tired And the clothing should not fail them The clothing should be as good as the technology of the rackets and the strings and it's not So that's there's a reason for us. We exist We exist for that, you know, we want to put the best fabrics the best fit Um the highest quality Italian microfiber that we bring in from italy to go into the pocket of the short So when you put your hand in the short it helps dry, you know, some of the sweat off your off your hands It's a recycled drawstring cord a lot of places in broider So we we do what moncler does we do an embroidered patch and that each patch has to be different to go with each piece There's so much detail. There's so much time that's spent Into the quality when we are selling a short for 120 dollars We should be selling the short for 200 dollars We should be but we won't do that to the market. We want people to appreciate it We want people to wear it. We want it to make it Quality luxury, but we want to make it affordable And now your margins still healthy despite that or healthy enough It's tough the business right now. I was actually on the phone with a friend of mine who's been involved with a number of successful brands It's changing a lot. I think that the the margins are are tough You know with with wholesale. It's very very tough. I think that I don't look at wholesale Being in in clubs. I I think we can be we're gonna we're in some of the best clubs in in the united states And hopefully we'll be in some of the best ones in the world I think that it's a marketing thing being in a great club for us being at the vintage club or being at You know fisher island. It's more of a marketing thing for us than it is obviously to exist You got to exist. You got to build bring people to your online store That's the way a business will exist today Think having stores and rent paying high rents in stores I tell people in clubs when they're purchasing things that if something doesn't work or something's not selling Let's change it out for something else We want to work with the athletes. We want to work with the retailers. We want to work with Tennis depot. We want to work with tennis warehouse. We want to see what's working We want to help them find the best pieces in our line that are working for them that excite them And the players as well, you know, we want to fit them properly. We really want them to be involved in the style like jensen wants up He wants us to do kind of a very retro purple color track suit There's a way, you know, there's a way to do something that fits his look and still it has that retro Vintage feel so He loves this stuff. He just loves it like he's so blown away by it And yeah, I think donna has been an amazing ambassador. She's got great style. She's elegant. She's beautiful She's everywhere. She's at formula one. She's super entrepreneurial So yeah, I want to work with people that are really driven are really passionate And that's what I kind of look for even when I even when I go into a you know into a tennis club a golf club I want to work with the people that are the buyers that they love what they're doing. They want Great product in their places. Well, look, I want to thank you for one creating a great brand I think it's amazing. I am a believer of it It's good to see someone trying to tackle the problem in the sport world Despite how tough it might be and so kudos to you for going on this adventure Obviously wish you nothing but the best obviously we were big supporters will continue to be supporters Anything we can do let everyone know where they can buy the product where they can go you almost sport.com almost sport.com On the website. There's also a lot of you know clubs and stores and resorts That carry it as well But we'll take you know, we'll take great care of you if something doesn't work right, you know We will exchange it. We'll make sure you're happy or refund you We just want you to experience the product you'll find a lot of times.  It's a great wristbands. Try our hats all these things, you know, we just we think about You know the wristband we think about the sock. It's got to be right, you know, you don't want to wear the wrong sock You don't want to wear the wrong short. You don't want to wear the wrong polo All these things matter and they should matter because it's it's going on you It's going on your body. Yeah, you decide. Yeah, what you're gonna wear this morning We're gonna wear this afternoon. We're gonna wear this evening. You decide And I think we've made some some high quality Pieces if you know, you want to find quality, you know come come see us. Love it. Thank you. Thank you. It was awesome Thank you for tuning in If you enjoyed this episode share with your friends your family or anyone you might think might benefit from the conversation We've had today And if you haven't already, please take a moment to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform We'd greatly appreciate it. Your feedback helps us improve and reach more people who can benefit from our discussions The best way to stay connected with us and get the latest updates on future episodes is through our social media channels You can find us at start of the storefront We'll be back next tuesday with another great episode. See you then


Thank you for everyone for your patience and for those of you who are with me since the half an hour ago Discussing with Katie and then Tony about using Joanna's work, particularly the truth Mandela In workshops on deep adaptation and our experiences with that. Thank you for waiting for Joanna, but And now and thank you to Tony. Thank you to Katie for standing in Without any notice whatsoever Joanna. Hello, and Hi, good. How you're in California. Are you was it afternoon there? That's right. That's right And then it turns out that there's several folks on this call. They're You're California's well, Colorado. Yeah here Yeah, we have 75 people now So I'm I'm joining you from Greece and I see people in the UK and so on so there's everyone who's just for context Joanna everyone who's joining joins as a member they're a member of the deep adaptation forum which I set up in order to to Try and deal with the in a useful way with the the amount of people who are getting in touch to After my deep adaptation paper came out and who wanted to really connect with others and explore Questions of collapse and how do we feel and how do we what do we actually do in if we feel that some form of societal collapse is either inevitable or likely and Of course, that's how we connected And I know Joanna you and I have been having a couple of conversations over the last months But I'm really pleased that you agreed to do a Q&A With us today. So welcome Good to be here So I first discovered your work About 20 years ago and I used a I think I used your systems game in my teaching quite quite quite often But I really reconnected with it when particularly the work around How to how to hold space For people dealing with with difficult emotions As we as we sense That we're in the heart of us in the middle of a sixth massive mass extinction and and and we Feel the the the terrifying situation that will that confronts us. How do we how do we find some sort of both Equanimity but also engagements and not to turn away but turn toward these difficult times and I felt Your your book coming back to life really really speaks to that So first up I would I'd love any Thoughts you could share on how you feel Uh your work is is is perhaps finding Greater relevance and resonance around the world right now Sadly because of of growing awareness of our predicament Well because this work sprang out of an awareness of this predicament, but that was 42 years ago I had been an environmental activist with my family and my teenage children and we So that was we knew a lot and then it was my son his freshman year in university When I visited in Boston took me to a a Day one day Looking at the threats to the biosphere. So this was 77 And there was everything it was the Cousteau Society Jacques Yves Cousteau himself was there But it was much more than the On destruction of the oceans and the pollution and the loss of And was a big concern then but it was the oil spills and the But then it covered all the other things as well On the depredation on the species the extraction of the Before station. So this was 42 years ago and I went from display to display to panel discussions And this was all information That I was familiar with I was in my middle 40s then Or late whatever I just turned 90. So it's hard for me to figure back that far. It was about halfway Happy birthday for recently Now I met so that I mean de nostra vita halfway in the course of our life. Anyway But there was one thing I saw and it just tipped it And on my way back to where I was staying On a train over the bridge of the river charles. I it just suddenly hit me that our species Was destroying our world And that they And of what I saw which somehow pulled out the Scaffolding that had kept all that information as information in my mind My mental Acuity there it put and it just cascaded down Through my body my heart my feelings to my feet and I thought we're done so this was And I and so the question for me From them was how do I live? Uh in a world that my species live. How can I live? So that I am present enough in full presence so that I could enjoy it and be useful To good questions While my species is destroying it and um And that led to Work that you have that you encountered 20 years ago and a few months ago again So that it became It was evident to me after a year and a half of sort of a dark journey that People did not lack information And for me to tell people what was happening Particularly the people who were responsible Or who were voting but almost anybody Except a certain diehard activists for almost anybody else Uh, they would turn away And say well, there's nothing I can do about it. It is a shame. Isn't it? Oh such a shame But there's nothing I can do about it, but they there was a reluctance to feel mental pain Moral pain so that was what started the work and that scene central. How can we? Be with uh, discomfort mental and moral and psychological discomfort and um And I didn't like it myself, but I got very curious And so that went right from the start We we were because I was teaching meditation at the time as well Um began to experiment with how close you could get to the fire and and then to um We found simple things that we're still using like open sentences and much better than questions Or that helped people and because I was looking for not to persuade people About how bad things were That that your eyes would just glaze over That was the one thing they didn't want to hear they just think I know so but they How could I get the Voice from inside them as the most voice they most needed to hear which was a voice of caring And so that wasn't so hard. I see I see that really does come through in your work The voice of caring inside them to connect back with that rather than The the fear of the pain that they might experience that the fear of despair That would keep them away from con being conscious From from connecting with their compassion and their benevolence. I just do any you mentioned meditation Can I can I uh come in on that?  I'm a person who loves the teachings and practices of the buddha. Right I see that was not a buddhist Excellent. Thank you I was wondering how How a buddhist philosophy And also buddhist practices Or either of them You you think or you're finding helpful For for yourself or for other people as as we sense this ever greater Terror about As as this destruction of life on earth seems to be coming to our own doorstep Um, when I say our I'm I'm recognizing the people here on zoom around the world probably the educated middle class people Most people living in the west It's sort of coming home to roost now on that test. I was wondering if if you're finding The buddhist philosophy or buddhist practices to be of of help in that context I I did from the beginning Okay, usually um, see this What what what makes it difficult for us? coming out of um The western mind coming out of uh the um and theistic traditions uh is that um We have uh See ourselves as separate individuals um basically And um and this has grown of course extremely strong in the last five centuries uh of hyper individualism. So what for me as a um Westerner and a and an academic and an activist and a professor and uh was to um Not just read about it in books about them but to uh working with uh buddhist refugees from to bed and and and in the 60s I encountered their way of being and that intrigued me and I um What I found was that the experience of being a Who you are is not put in an isolation cell or a prison cell of being a separate and permanent self or individual And that that is actually that separateness and permanence is actually a delusion And it's a delusion created by your appetites or power and praise And and and the and aversion So to So we've lost our way now. It's okay. If you think of yourself as a um What let me get back to so that the right now today we we how do we handle such overwhelming these that The world that I need the world that has brought me forth Or that I am now living on with my family and my job is coming apart. What do I do? I'm lost I went and I How can I so the move that's the buddhist made and now that you can make with an understanding that our World is alive That our earth is a living system that everything we are and know and feel and Is part of that earth if you make a shift Break free of that isolation cell of the separate self always so greedy for Recognition and And all and kind so ready to compete This this Right this separate false pray to I got I got to find somebody. Who can I blame for this? Could I could I just pick up on that one? Which is which is fascinating to me because you've you've talked about your work about inviting people into that place of compassion and you've just said also to one of the ways of not One of the ways of coping with a sense of that you're losing control in your life and things are falling away is is is to blame somebody Just on that issue. So I find that quite a lot of people who are either concerned about climate change or who are Clearly activists on climate change are talking about who to blame And it may be oil executives or it may be a whole country that's profligate or a whole class of people and I was wondering What are your thoughts on the I mean and and also some people say that it's actually strategic or tactical to to have someone or to blame I was wondering what your thoughts are on blame in general but also Where that might come from in terms of your your spiritual philosophy and so on and I'm thinking also let let's make this Why should the What are your thoughts on whether or not young people should be blaming us For the predicament we've created so children today who are facing such a terrifying future Well, I'm not hearing blame from From Greta Thunberg on by and large. I only hear them wanting us to hear them They want our ear Listen to me. They say Don't turn away. Listen Care, please care about this You've got the levers of power as she says to whether she's in Davos are talking to the House of whatever parliaments where she can get out without taking the plane That so I don't Frankly, I don't I don't get blame from the young ones and the the youth and the millennials um because they uh know that they're Well, I don't know. I can't explain why but they don't and I think that the people who are the most I'm susceptible to blaming are the ones who have the smallest And tiniest sense of self that they are totally identified with their social or economic position And they're the votes or voices or that they can Harvest so that the We are called I've just spent a day with a wisdom keeper of the rainforest in the amazon and I have never met A more humble person and it's evokes the humility Humility is freedom as far as I'm experiencing again to go because you find this in the indigenous people You don't have to go to the buddhas. As a matter of fact, I've know some buddhas that were pretty concerned about their rank priority Thank you. I was wondering the other aspect of blame is self blame or guilt and If you hear people who feel guilty about this situation and our contribution to it what what's your What's your response? Yeah, I could say that we're You know There again is a focus on the separate self. It could be endless You can look in the mirror morally from now to doomsday. That is so boring We've got to graduate from that We have a planet-wide disaster where we finally step out of your separate Self adulation because self judgment and self praise are so equal you're focused on How great you are we could just take it off as if we're taking off a suit of armor Yeah, no, it's it's uh as I feel that way too and I And I don't know how to often to say it Yeah, it's just because I've had a lot of people Talk to me about our predicament and all these sorts of things about who to blame or blaming the self and so on and none of those views seem to lead to Compassion action So yes, I hear what you're saying very clearly there I'm gonna turn open now Joanna to the 80 people who've joined us and invite So hopefully Joanna, would you be able to stay with us for another half an hour? Is that possible? Okay, good. So we'll have half an hour of questions and of course people who thought this was ending On the hour then obviously duck out and I'm sorry for the delay in getting started Matthew I know you were good. What I think I'd like to do is actually have a question on on hope and the context for this Joanna is um I have been criticized for So taking away hope by talking about how I believe now that the societal collapse is inevitable And so I know you've done quite a bit of work on hope in the past now. We have a question on hope from Iowan and Matthew Matthew if you could unmute Iowan and We'll we'll hear from Iowan directly on this matter of hope Have you We can hear you Loving to talk to you Joanna. I was a student of jr. Krishnamurti and used to say that hope must die And I wonder how you relate to that well He's got a point Is yeah, I I I myself when I wrote the last I co-wrote the last book called active hope My people who've been with me over the decades couldn't believe I had written anything with the word hope in it because I had been experiencing and saying and teaching all along that If your attachment to hope takes you out of the present moment And this is where you can act You can't act yesterday. You can't act tomorrow or next year. You can act now Now is this huge a beautiful arena of the present moment and this is where you can make a difference and so Hope actually takes you out of the present into what you can gesture is That happens. So that's why however with my co-author Chris Johnstone and who's living up in northern scotland now and we actually wrote the book by skype, which is quite a romp and What we did was combine it with both systems theory and um The buddhist teachings where uh, what you can do in the moment is You with your intention to know what you want what you wish for What you uh, love Oh the the program, uh A civilizational program that uh, you want to get get behind even if you feel it's unlikely But that's where if you want to get behind and so we linked hope with intention which is what actually Both in both systems and and buddhism happens and that way we could talk about that's that's active hope Active hope is what you can do right what you you see yourself and choosing to do It's that great thing we have which is choice There people choosing to um Be online right at the moment And those who have a last to choose that they have to go because their babysitter is gone Thank you any thoughts on that i1 Well, yes Um lots I mean it it feels to me that you know There has been a turn of events That they're feeling that it is too late and and this draining away of hope Um, especially, you know relating to what I do as well Uh using theater To produce reenchantment. Actually, this is my work Um because I don't think anything's going to change unless there's a reenchantment and a love of nature Okay Yeah, I mean just say um I I was the other day I was uh talking with somebody about this and I brought up the example or illustration From the fellowship of the rings and photo going to through mordor for the ring And imagining somebody asking him when he's in the hardship working Do you have hope are you optimistic about this venture? And I he doesn't have time get out of here. I don't have time for questions like that. You have to concentrate So it's not that Hope your whole plus you just don't bother Talking about hope or nurturing hope if you're looking right at the moment right the act you're in the middle of That's very clear indeed That's my one o'clock clock Oh, you have a fun clock better more fun than mine so Yeah, I've I've um, I've started to hear people talking about being hope free Uh, but other people then talking about a kind of hope Which is how we wish to be in the moment rather than speculating on things we we won't we don't really know about But that also connects though to this this idea of Some strands and spirituality, uh Particularly influenced by the law of attraction concept think that We need to imagine some positive material future for it to be so and by not imagining that we somehow make it So I was wondering what you Uh, what you say to people like that. I'm thinking also of um That yeah, we hear a lot about the power of vision the power of a compelling story around the more beautiful world our hearts know It's possible for example Well, what are your thoughts on those people that say that we we need a powerful vision of a better material future I think it's a very unfortunate example of a magical thinking That you that that uh, you are thinking of something Makes it so I haven't myself found that persuasive Or useful in my life I think that being willing to be with what is I had uh to I was having a hard time at last fall over Um at I was actually went to a facility. Oh, I'm talking too much Let's bring on the The next question. Okay. Sure. Are we gonna ask there's a question from from linda? And by the way, please do put questions if you're ready to ask questions of Joanna put them in the chat box also, um Be good to get a mix of the men and women asking asking questions linda you've asking you're asking a question about if it's to do with being a Speaker and a teacher and on this topic and and how difficult it is to find something to say in these desperate times Over to linda matthew if you could unmute linda I think I am unmuted but thank you. Um Yes, I I um hi Joanna. Thank you so much for today. I um I podcast and ironically is the reluctant evolutionary at voice of evolution radio And I wrote a radio drama series about why the world is where it is as an imaginary character giving a kind of not advice but sharing an open-handed offering to humanity about where we are and how we got here today and After I wrote that I found that I I didn't know what else to say that I I haven't really podcast in a very long time And I'm You know, how do we be with all we know And find compassion for our own reluctance because I have to raise my hand as a reluctant evolutionary Myself and and how do we use our voices? In combination of an urgency And humanity I I'll add to it that I'm also I became certified as a forest therapy guide so that I could Reconnect people to the more than human world and make it personal again Because I know that if something is personal we care about it and we want to protect it and we have Categorized it as an object So that we see it as outside of ourselves right now I you know, I have so much trouble today finding my own voice in this being a voice for the voiceless And I can't find my own voice And so I'm wondering if you might have some thoughts about that Well, I think this is a there can be a very fruitful situation I think that that's then give yourself a break from your own voice There's so many people who are shooting off their opinion is how do you know, what's your own voice? But you can let other parts of you speak you can let your Taste buds speak or your feelings of your heart speak. Oh, this is good. Oh, this scares me The I think it's a sign. I was just we're just talking about this this man from the rainforest this teacher He was so humble He was so humble and that if but you can You can write stories or you can ask questions You can turn from not having your voice To having a being of this blessed state of curiosity and inviting people To speak how they see the world What scares them? What worries them? What do they love our first question? at in a climate emergency Meeting We could do a go. I did an open sentence and which was as I face Collapse of our culture What I'm grateful for is That's a wonderful question try it. That's a brilliant brilliant. That's really powerful for me to hear that as well Joanna um in the sense of of And it's a difficult thing to do, isn't it when suddenly people Everybody wants someone with the answers everyone wants someone to give them a pep talk And and you know what excuse me? They don't want it. They don't want your answer basic They ask as if they want but what they in their deepest heart They want to hear the voice inside them Yes, very beautifully put. I I had a an experience recently at a at a camp Where after a q&a Which was set up well out there for I was an expert on this topic of societal collapse and and how we live with that anticipation Um, there were quite there were parents of of young children and they were particularly troubled by this And I have no answers and no answers at all about about but So the only answer was simply to offer a space and and katie and another camp member They just hosted the space and it was an invitation for people to share their emotions With no answers. It's just to be with the pain and to witness each other's pain And honor that it's like say it it's it is the way to be in this predicament. There's no way out of it We have to be there with that pain and and then and then find community find something else on the back of that sharing You are a brave man And that is exactly What I find so admirable and so persuasive that true humility of yours Is what what caused me to believe right off the bat? Here is someone that I want to read and learn from You are entirely there You're not trying to spoil anything.  You're paying them the great Complement the great honor of being Intellectually naked are emotionally available before And I think that this allows excuse me for preaching. I tend to preach but this this allows Gaia Gaia consciousness to speak through you Or any of us who get our separate competitive self out of the way Thank you. Thank you Joanna and You've spoken to my Higher self. I know I fall away from that. I get busy. I fall back into ego stories of of doing and responsibility and contribution and And and then I become imbalanced in my personal life and all the all the all the nonsense that goes on goes on in me too But that was wonderful to hear. Thank you very much and bless you I've seen quite a few questions are now coming into the chat box. Wow Um, I'm going to go to beca Beca who's got a question here. Matthew if you could unmute beca Hey Joanna, um Thank you once again, and I would love to hear if you have any advice on what is the best way to come to terms On the spiritual level with ours on the planet's demise. Um I'm just curious to know what your reflections have been on Do you think this is a part of our collective souls evolution? Is this supposed to be how things unfold because it's so hard to accept the loss and suffering but Is this maybe just some form loss of form we are facing? Um, you know, I I guess what I'm coming up against a lot at the moment is really dealing with people's existential Crisis and grief around what's happening and I'm trying to understand the best way to support them through their own Coming to terms with what is We've been given this beautiful life this beautiful planet If you let yourself really love it If you let yourself be open to what the ancient ones and the indigenous people and the Um Contemporary science, this is a living planet Uh, you can find that you can Grow in your life in widening circles Widening circles that reach out across the world you're that big We're liberated from us that little prison cell of the ego And then when you're in widening circles, you see pain. Oh, yes, you do, but you see also A The beauty of this planet out of which we grow then we're not we aren't coming out I don't believe we're coming from anywhere else. We weren't manufactured We're not coming out of a laboratory, but even that would be coming out of so that this we can Plumb and just turn to Again our gratitude for life and for the love of this and when we see oh my god Things are going to be bad. Then you say well, how can how can we Uh So you see what's falling apart is a demented system It is a system a political economic system of the industrial growth society Corporate capitalism and its guises in not, you know Countries that don't like to use the word capitalism, but they are commodifying our mother They're breaking her up and eating devouring that So this needs to be this needs to be destroyed. This needs to come apart Not be disturbed, but it's and so we look at this. How can we Love this world as this Demented and destructive Political economy Dies We go into a system what we call in systems thinking positive disintegration This happens actually at every stage of the evolutionary as we evolve from one Level of evolution to another the old codes the old appetites The old fears have to come apart the armor has to be taken off So that the soft sensitive skin and fingertips so that the Vulnerable parts eyes and lips and ears can't blow so that we can grow in connection It's only to connect when grow and learn in connection And the industrial growth society forgot about that Because you can't build connection in a factory Can I can I just come in on that Joanna? You're you're pointing to Well, some people Tell me that actually why do I sound so gloomy or terrified about collapse? If it's the collapse of industrial consumer growth society Which has been so abusive not only to nature, but up to our nature and to us as nature Then then why why be so doom and gloom about about it? And I think well Because It's going to be quite a lot of pain along the way and and maybe people dying young and and so on so What's what's your response to the people who say oh, let's just welcome collapse. It's it's it's about time Well, um, I can see their point, but we we have we can't just say toss it all so that we we can Try to make what I was hearing already Uh In the 90s As more and more people were recognizing the mortality or the short liveness of this Corporate capitalism that we need to bring it to a soft landing Let's let's not and that was even back then contemplated that we could But now But that's still so we we tried to acquaint people so that with the necessity of this maybe So that they don't Blame each other It's the blaming the system otherwise they've turned that this is this is all because of trump or all because of the Mexicans trying to get into the states or you know, we blame each other that's pointless We've all made a huge mistake Yeah, so there's that sense of unfortunately We humans could make a bad situation worse rather than Learn from it and have this as a as a rather tough invitation to awakening And for me, I think I don't see I don't have any story I don't believe in any story that this means that all of humanity will awaken to peace and love and understanding but many of us will And we can be actively seeking to do that ourselves and be part of that ourselves Um, I think that's what what you were you were saying as well I'd like to um call on azul who's with uh with tony in totnes Azul you have a question and I think it's um, oh, let me see azul's face Okay, so azul can you one? Matthew, can you look for tony? Look for tony and i'm new tony and azul is there bonsoir, duana It's fine you're on hi. Yes. Hello. We can hear you. Yes. Hi. Hi, duana. Hi everyone Uh, duana, I have a question which is um Actually, I might have changed the question originally my question was If you were speaking from the river, what would you say to us? But I remember that you have a tree outside the window that you love very much so perhaps uh Yeah, perhaps you could uh We could change the river to the tree. Whatever you choose Oh, no, I was thinking um I was just thinking that that that you know that that last sonnet of real kids that I love so much And he says And if the world has ceased to hear you Say to the rushing No, I say to the silent earth I flow And to the rushing Water speak I am So we give We Experience our inter-existence I had a wonderful revelation at the dark river near you Where a wonderful swan spoke to me The year was the year after the year my husband died We have the the earth is alive as you know We can awaken to that And the awake awaken that the the earth Uh holds us The poets know that The early our ancestors knew that the early ones know that And to be with our mother As she's suffering do we not want could anything be sweeter than to be with her? In this hard time Do you look at your watch say I can't bear to I don't have time to be with the suffering of my mother Hmm We discover I love all over again Music's wonderful rushing rivers are wonderful poetry is wonderful Looking at two poets right there Thank you Joanna. Um I And uh, I'm loving the reaction on faces Um around the world through this digital system. I'm seeing Faces uh with tears of joy Uh, so I I wonder I don't know quite how to ask this question. Um Uh, you just you just turn 90 And uh I was wondering As as death becomes less of an abstract thing in your own life in terms of your own mortality As it becomes something that Might be more imminent. I mean who knows I might die tomorrow, but it it there's a sense that it may be more imminent now How is that if anything changing your outlook if at all in in in it does that Can we learn anything from that in terms of as we as we fear our own mortality as we look at What's happening with with climate change and the the potential for Uh a breakdown in our own way of life I don't fear it I want to stay around as long as I uh Can keep up with what's happening Um I think this is the most exquisite moment on earth I think the conversation we're having now Is the conversation we all need to have we all need to fall in love again with what is And what is is an exquisite planet with wonderful arts and great species and we Have a chance to move together and not blow ourselves up and not kill ourselves with these misplaced fears I am would like to I just received a painting. I can't do that that I look at and it's a painting from a friend I've never seen because he's on death row at this San Quentin prison and uh, he painted um a Woods like a woods you go through or like Dante found himself in the woods in the middle of his life And then in the woods he has in the distance Uh His name is Orlando and he painted a window and the window Is open and there's a white bird flying through Like and I saw it as an angel of death first But and you look through the window and there fields and oceans and waters beyond Uh And I saw oh, that's my death. He's painting my death So I just find it you know Jam, I think at buddha fields around the universe People are lining up To be born on earth right now to be here now because this is a moment of such exquisite Realization And that's why I love you so much because you are helping people realize I tell what it's like to be show what a human a human can be at this time So I look at that picture from San Quentin that man did that I said, oh, that's my death But I'm going to stay here in the shrub shrubbery for a while longer as long Thank you for thank you for for answering that and Wow, I I uh, I I I just can only hope that I I'm I'm for me. I'm new to this path Joanna. I'm I had sort of a a positive disintegration of self um about a year ago and and Decided to not do that quietly Yeah, and still experiencing the consequences of that but um, it's been wonderful to To connect with What is most important in life? And you've spoken to that very clearly over the past hour and so much so just in in reflecting on that last question. So thank you very very much and um, and I'm going to call it to a close now because we've we've overrun so um Uh, thank you everyone around the world for tuning in and also for dealing with the technical issues with your Thank you. Joanna wonderful to to connect to Not just your words, but that sense of passion and Divine inspiration behind the words. It's wonderful indeed. So I really feel blessed to have been chatting with you today Thank you. Thank you for this hour


It was early morning when the meeting took place on one of the bridges connecting West and East Berlin. Within hours, the news flashed throughout the world. The exchange of a Soviet spy for our U-2 pilot underscored one of the realities of our present day. There is an espionage war, fought on a dark and secretive battleground by trained professionals. As the Russian who we returned across the bridge in Berlin, Colonel Rudolf Ivanovich Abel. During his period in the United States as an active agent for the communist conspiracy, Colonel Abel operated under the cover of Emil Goldfuss, artist. And artist he was, at spying, at furthering the directives set out by Lenin, bring about world revolution and eliminate its adversary. But skilled as the Colonel Abel's are, countering them would be less of a problem if not for those who aid the professional agents. For the Colonel Abel's do not work alone. Riot in Tokyo, inflamed by local communists. How quick the Colonel Abel's are to make use of those who always see the world through red-colored glasses. In a quiet corner of a European city, a Soviet agent has met a contact who is not assisting him because of communist conviction, but because he has been bribed. Money is often the lubricant on which the Soviet spy machine rolls. So too is the weakness of people who act in an intemperate fashion. A hand caressing another hand. The focus of a hidden camera and later on the subject of the picture may be the target of blackmail attempts on behalf of Soviet interests. A plane flying between two American cities. How tempting it is to talk too much to a stranger, especially when one is involved in some way with important technological and production secrets.  Now gentlemen, I want to emphasize again that the purpose of the security briefing which the DOD provides is not that you start seeing spies behind every bush these next few weeks. All of you are cleared. And all of you in one way or another hold in your minds all will be handling classified information. Information the operatives of the other side want to get their hands on. Now should you by mistake or any other reason become involved in something that could be interpreted by the enemy as exploitable, report it at once to your nearest United States security officer. He'll be discreet. He's not interested in blackening your name or in ruining your career. Thank you for your time, gentlemen. I was glad it was over. The Department of Defense briefing foregoing overseas for my company. A large outfit in the aerospace field. Oh, not that the briefing was dull, no far from it. After all, what's more exciting than a spy thriller? Hearing about all those cloaks and daggers and Mata Harays awaiting us on the other side of the ocean. But one thing I was sure. I knew how to handle classified information. And I also knew that leaving behind the United States meant leaving behind certain built-in protections. Local police to contact quickly. Talk to in my own language. The immediate protection of United States agencies such as the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Close at hand, properly maintained security files and safes for classified documents would not always be available on my overseas trip. All these thoughts were running through my mind as I arrived home. Frankly, I had mixed emotions about the approaching trip to Europe. I had the travel bug just like anybody else. But I would be separated from my wife and kids for almost a month. The mark of that separation had just arrived in the mail. My passport. And a few days later, that same passport was checked at the overseas airlines counter. Today, more and more business and industrial executives and technical people need to go abroad on company or organizational matters. Many military and civilian employees in the Department of Defense must go overseas in the performance of their duties. It was time to say goodbye to family and home and America for the next few weeks.  But I had taken the proper actions. In my bags were papers and blueprints, yes. But nothing classified. These I'd arranged for the company's security office to mail on ahead to United States military installation close to my destination. Overseas I had no intentions of letting down on security. As my plane took off, I made this silent vow. Yes, from the moment of my arrival in the foreign country, I was determined to be careful every step of the way. But what I would later come to realize was, in security as in everything else, good intentions alone are not enough. Things went smoothly at the start. Sure, things were not much like our suburban town back home, but I settled into the routine of the assignment fast enough. Early morning, a car would pick me up and take me to a plant on the outskirts of the city where I worked very closely with a Colonel Carr, a man who had apparently never heard of the eight-hour day. So you can understand, come the end of the working day, I was a mighty bushed man. But not too tired to react at what greeted me when I returned to my hotel room one night. My hotel room had been ransacked. I was about to call the local police when I decided to phone somebody else first. Then as far as you know, nothing was taken. Not that I know of. You left no classified documents in the room. No, I know better than that. Well, I know you do, but maybe whoever did all this was hoping you didn't. You think they were after classified documents? Could be. Why else would a thief take such a chance? Try so hard. Seems to me this is a case not just for the local police, but for the American authorities in the area. Well, there's no question about it. You did the right thing to come in and report the incident. Under the circumstances, we had no choice. Well, frankly, it was the Colonel who insisted. I find it hard to believe that someone would go to all that trouble, just on the chance that there might be some classified documents lying around. It's amazing how they will go to all that trouble. Do you remember a few years ago when it was revealed at the United Nations that the Russians actually placed a sophisticated bugging device inside the Great Seal of the United States? And so began another orientation. This time, believe me, I listened. I was all eyes and ears. Watching and listening to the Consulate official, the whole thing seemed to come alive. At the UN, it was revealed for all to see. The wireless microphone device hidden by the Russians inside the Great Seal in the American Ambassador's study in the Moscow Embassy. I learned that a wireless microphone, such as the one placed in the seal's hidden cavity, can be smaller than an eraser on a pencil. These miniaturized devices are self-contained radio transmitters. Everything said in a bugged room can be tape-recorded as far as a mile away without using any telltale wires. An enemy agent can be wired for sound with concealed microphones and recorders. Technological breakthroughs in miniaturization have made possible the development of these hard-to-detect devices. But quite possibly, the best of all is the simplest, the one at hand almost everywhere, the telephone. A trained hand can adjust the wiring inside the telephone in a matter of seconds, and your room is left with an effective bugging apparatus. It does not matter if the receiver is off the hook or on the hook. The listening device is operating, and only a telephone company technician or trained counterintelligence specialist can tell that the instrument has been bugged. In much the same way, a radio loudspeaker can be converted into a giant ear, passing along your conversations to hostile listeners. I soon found out that in the optical field, there has been a similar technical breakthrough. Newly developed telescopic lenses make it possible to make a readable photograph of a newspaper page from a sizable distance away. Miniaturized cameras can easily be hidden while taking incriminating photographs. He explained that more sensitive film and new developing procedures require much less light for the taking of a recognizable photograph. Even if there is no light in a room, infrared photography can do the job. Then he stood up and brought back a large mirror. It was really a mirror window. One moment, a window I could see through, then a mirror, transparent again, then opaque as the agent wishes. All I could now see was myself. Agents make use of these mirror window devices when they want to see or photograph without being seen. And a good strong lock on a door or safe makes little difference either. Can open a complicated lock with his pick faster than you or I can do it with a key. That's a grim picture you paint. Well, potentially it is grim. Especially when you add the human factor to the technological potential of espionage today. The human factor? Weakness, susceptibility to temptation, lack of more fiber. Call it what you want. But the enemy searches it out. And when he finds it, let me show you what I mean by giving you a little background in this article in today's newspaper. It's been officially reported as a resignation. It's nothing of the sort, of course. As it happened, he stayed in the same hotel as you, arriving a few months ago. He'd been working on his assignment for about three weeks when it happened. He didn't speak the language of the country and a disagreement developed about the taxi fare. Neither could make the other understand. Just then a young woman came out of a hotel. The driver seemed to know it. Her talents as an interpreter were more than adequate. And so were her other talents. Whatever she said to the driver, it did the trick. Anybody who can accomplish all this in the space of a few moments is worth some curiosity. Which the official expressed. Her name was Maria, the driver said. She was a dancer in a local cabaret. Often when a man is separated from his family and familiar surroundings, feelings of depression and loneliness may set in. Writing a letter back home is no substitute for being home. Waking up in a strange room, he felt a mixture of hangover and conscience. The first thing he wanted to do was to get out of there. But his hand was a little unsteady. Even in a not very alert condition, he knew what it was immediately. A device for picking up conversations such as his. Now he thought it couldn't have happened to him. Not to him. So he didn't report the incident. Not till a few months later, that is, when he was contacted by a Russian espionage agent in his home country. The agent was very polite. He played him some tapes, showed the official some photographs and said bygones would be bygones. If certain NATO production defense information was made available. That's about all I can tell you. Except that this man's career has been ruined. These people, those who want the kind of classified information that people like Colonel Carr and I carry around or know, they don't stop at anything, do they? That's it exactly. You show them any weakness, and they'll exploit it for their own ends. Well, what can we do about it? Not much more I can tell you than you know already. Above all, it's a matter of common sense and tact. There aren't enemy spies and agents everywhere you go at every turn, of course not. But because espionage directed against you is a valid possibility. You have to be a security conscious overseas as much or more than you are at home. And that goes beyond observing all the regulations affecting the proper handling of classified papers and materials. It means security consciousness every day, 24 hours a day. Use common sense. Suppose you're an American serviceman or civilian meeting an associate for the first time. Don't be embarrassed about asking for proper identification. Be cautious with all new acquaintances, especially if they seem to come into your life out of unexplained circumstances. Never discuss classified information with unauthorized persons or over a telephone or in an area that has not been checked out by security technicians. A foreign national appears at your drawing board. He may have clearance for a certain category of information, but he's not entitled to knowledge of everything in that category. He is only authorized to have access to information he needs to know in order to perform his duties. Avoid any kind of public or private conduct that enemy agents might use as a blackmail weapon against you. Be especially wary of being lured into illegal currency dealings. These are to be avoided if security compromises are to be avoided. Remember, too, that the enemy agent uses legitimate international conventions to make friendly social contacts. These conventions are for exchanging information, but you must know in advance clearly what is and what is not classified. Today, for one reason or another, large numbers of American citizens are going behind the Sino-Soviet curtains for varying periods. Behind these curtains, further precautions must be kept in mind. You should always carry the address and telephone numbers of the United States Embassy or allegation on your personal. If you become involved in any difficulty, no matter how slight, contact the Embassy or allegation as soon as possible for assistance. Always carry identification documents. Do not misrepresent yourself under any circumstances. Do not at any time take pictures of military parades, military personnel, or military installations. Taking photographs and making sketches can lead to complications for the traveler. Notes and diaries should not contain any military information or any statements that could be to the detriment of the United States. In general, note-taking should be avoided in public. It is an action that often draws a suspicion and hostility of Iron Curtain citizens. It may lead to an incident which the Soviet government will use for its own purposes. Always be alert for attempts to place documents or pictures in your hotel room or your automobile. Do not accept letters or any other objects for safekeeping or for delivery. To an address either inside or outside Iron Curtain countries. Just about all mail is censored. Since usually you will not be able to read the contents, you may be giving Soviet or satellite authorities an opportunity to make embarrassing and compromising charges. That was our contact with the local police. They caught the man and went through your room. A bellboy the hotel fired yesterday. Land security wasn't involved at all? Who can be sure? Anyway, I want to thank you for coming in with us, Mr. Andrews. No. I want to thank you. I walked back to my hotel all the way from the consulate. I needed time to clear my head. A lot of thoughts were clanging through it. I couldn't help thinking of the officials who'd gotten into trouble. From any point of view it was not an amusing story. But the real question for me was how many men, lonely and away from home and family might have fallen into the same trap. There was a lot of mail waiting for me. Some welcome letters and a tape recording. I breathed easier when I saw who'd sent it. My two kids, a little family newscast they'd sent me. And again, I couldn't help thinking how different it would be if I somehow had fallen into the same trap as the man whose picture was in the paper. Every time the mail would come, there would be fear. Every time I would come face to face with a stranger, there would be fear. A hand would reach out with a photograph, a recording, along with a softly voiced threat to let others see and hear them. What would I do then? What would you do then? It's a question I hope none of us ever has to answer. Later on, while I walk the streets of the foreign city, enjoying the sight and sound of something new and different, I worked out the answer for myself, and maybe for you. Overseas I'd come to learn the best thing to do is act as at home with a moral code.  It has to be that way. Let's face it. Injustice to ourselves, injustice to our families, and injustice to our country.