Well, good afternoon, everyone. We are going to get started. My name is Neela Richardson. I'm chief economist of the payroll company ADP. And this issue is long in the making, right? The concept that market wages may not pay workers enough to afford the necessities, like housing, like education, like health insurance, didn't start with the pandemic. The cost of living crisis that is around the globe, and many advanced economies, means that everything has gone up in price, particularly housing. And the great news, the silver lining this year, is that we all, most of us here at the forum, expect inflation to moderate. But the funny thing about that moderation is prices won't go down. They just grow more slowly. So this is a continual issue that companies have to face. Fortunately for all of us, that we have a distinguished panel to discuss the issues and the trends and what they're seeing works and doesn't work when it comes to living wages. So let me introduce them to you now. First, to my left is Minister Hubertus Heil, who is the Secretary of Labor in Germany. So welcome, and thank you for sharing your experience in raising the minimum wage last year in Germany. I think that will be a very welcomed addition to our conversation. Also joining us is Professor Stephanie Stanceva from Harvard University. Stephanie's research explores people's sentiment towards public policy. And so again, as this is a policy change, that research comes in handy with a discussion of living wages. To her left is Mr. Dennis Denis McEwell, who is CEO of ADECO. ADECO operates in 60 countries as a staffing agency. So he has a lot to tell us about the corporate response to living wages. And no discussion is complete on living wages without having Christy Hoffman present, I believe, with Unis. That is the global union representing 20 million members in 150 countries. So please join me in welcoming our panel. So the concept of a living wage probably varies in every room that it's discussed. But it's very much linked to the World Economic Forum conception of what a good work framework is. And you'll see this PowerPoint to my right. And the first point on that PowerPoint is the promotion of fairness on wages and technology. And if technology is part of this discussion, I would welcome it. But let's focus on fairness and wages. And I think to kick us off, we can turn to the professor. And Professor, if you could kind of give us an overview about this concept of fairness tied to public policy and how people perceive what a living wage is. Yes, thank you so much. I can give you a little bit of the research perspective here based on research we do at my lab at Harvard, the social economics lab. I'll try to talk very fast, but please interrupt me if I go too on. So the first thing is that to me, the living wage is actually part of a much broader issue, which is that of good jobs. A lack of good jobs is one of the key issues we're facing right now, which are driven by two secular trends, globalization and technological change, and which are really hollowing out the middle class and standard of living. And you can see this in labor market polarization, in regional inequality, decline in job stability, increase in insecurity. And it creates this rift between people who can benefit from globalization and technological change, typically, you know, digital elites in metropolitan areas and those that are left behind. And the costs of that lack of good jobs, you know, they're broad and they're really enormous and require new policy thinking and coordination between businesses and governments. So what are good jobs to people and what do people think is fair? So one of the things we do at the social economics lab is to do large scale surveys to really get into people's minds and understand how do they think and reason about economic and social policies. And what comes out as fair to people is, you know, a good job is a job that will definitely provide a decent standard of living, a living wage, but it goes beyond that. People, you know, want effort to be rewarded. They want some level of personal autonomy, some stability and security and some scope for career progression. And many people think that their job is not as good as that of their parents at the same age and that good jobs are not available to them where they live. And the costs of that lack of good jobs, of course, their direct labor market costs on the work is affected, but it goes way beyond that. You know, what research shows is that there's social costs in terms of breakdown of families and social capital, drug use, opioid use, crime. Also political costs arise in polarization, arise in populism and ethnocentric nationalistic tendencies. So the costs are really broad and really big if, you know, nothing is done against this. And what this really requires is a coordination between governments and businesses because these costs are not necessarily taken into account by businesses when they choose to not create good jobs or to create good jobs. Of course, good firms do create good jobs, but typically to a large extent this is done for business purposes, not taking into account these broader social, economic, political costs. And this is where government intervention is needed to give the right incentives and to work sort of hand-in-hand with business.  The traditional welfare state really relies on two pillars. One is, you could call it pre-production stage, so that's education, training policies to really get people into the labor market. And the other, let's call it redistribution, is transfers for pensions and social insurance for risks like unemployment, illness, disability. And largely focusing on these two makes a lot of sense. And the third pillar, which is the production state, was really left aside. The production stage was very much there to foster productivity, innovation, and growth, but not really thinking about social policies or inequality. And the separation between social economic policies, those that reduce inequality and insecurity on the one hand, those that foster productivity, innovation, and growth on the other, makes a lot of sense when good jobs are available to everyone. But it doesn't make a sense today when globalization and technological change are hollowing out the middle. So we really need social policies that look more like the economic productivity innovation policies and vice versa. So we really need to merge the productivity and the inequality agendas together. And just very briefly, in terms of concrete policy directions at a very high level, given the lack of time. Why don't we pause there in terms of policy directions? Because I would love to bring the other panelist in on the road map that you've laid out here. And it's a road map that leads to, it starts with good jobs and a living wage and almost an equation between those two, equating those two things, which could be controversial. But it ends with, if it's not done, the social ramifications and the political cost. So we're going to unpack that perspective, starting with you, Minister, on the political ramifications. And the first question I had for you as you instituted this 15% increase in the minimum wage in Germany last year was a really simple one. Why now? What was the impetus for that increase? Okay, Nila, ladies and gentlemen, it's a good start for my debate because it's about the political and the economic costs about bad wages. And I'm very happy that on the World Economic Forum, we are discussing the social dimension because it's not just a question of respect and stability of democracies. It's also a question of stabilizing economies. And that's very important. In fact, what is the aim of this debate? And I think the sentence has to be, if you work all day, you should be able to make a living. It's an easy sentence. It's hardly done because many workers in global supply change do not make living wages, or through, they often work in a difficult environment and have long working hours. As a matter of fact, industrialized countries benefit from supply change. So I firmly believe that we have a duty. We must work towards living wages around the world, not just in our country. But how? That's the important question. For example, through our partnerships between developing countries as part of our developing corporations, and we can promote decent pay, moreover, we can start and implement joint initiatives at a multilevel level. Global standards are also important. These standards are developed by the International Labour Organization in Geneva and its members. An important example of such is the standard of ILO Convention 131. It deals with minimum wages fixing. I plan to ratify this convention in Germany during the last periods. Let me talk about three levels. In Germany, the launching of the minimum wage was heavily discussed about 10 years because we came from a different tradition. We had a tradition of strong social partnership in our so-called social economy, social market economy. And at the beginning of the 90s, before the end of the 80s in Germany, the collective bargaining was very strong, over 80, 90% for companies and for employers. But it got step-by-step weaker, especially in the service sector. And that's why we launched a regulation for minimum wage in 2015. And I raised it in the last year to tell 12 euro. Why 12 euro? Because in the European debate, and we have now an European directive for the member states, the idea is that a living minimum wage should be 60% of the medium income of an economy. And 12 euro in Germany is 60% of a medium. But let me add two other ideas. A minimum wage is still a minimum wage is a minimum wage. And I think we have to talk about strengthening, once again, collective bargaining. Because it's not the duty of the state to set wages. It's a question of how we can deal between workers and companies and trade unions and association of companies. And that's not just important for the question of wage setting. It's also important for the dealing of transformation. Because the state is not able to, policymakers are not able to make micro decisions. And so we are talking about in Germany not just raising the minimum wage. By the way, it's strengthening our demand in our economy. It's also about strengthening collective bargaining, once again. One example is that we will pass a law that public spending for companies who will work for the state have to pay the wage of collective bargaining with the treaties, not a raise to the bottom, but raise a little bit higher. Second idea is not just about minimum wages and collective bargaining. It's also about re-skilling and upskilling. Because as you mentioned, there is a deep, deep transition driven by decarbonization, driven by digital change, driven by demography. In Germany, we are not too old at the workforce, but a little bit too young. We have a highest rate of employment we ever had in Germany. And we have a lack of skilled workers. That's a threat for our growth in the future. And that's why we're passing a re-skilling and upskilling strategy. And there has to be measures in the companies and even by the states to become a re-skilling and upskilling nation. This is our aim, because this is a question of dignity, that people can work and have a living wage. This is a question of respect and democracy, but it's also an economic necessity to have a skilled labor force to be competitive in the future. This is our idea to re-strengthen social economy. And last point is because you mentioned the current situation of the crisis of the pandemic and also the crisis driven by the Russians war against Ukraine. The funny thing is that our labor market is very stable. In fact, we used a little public money for short-time work schemes. And it helped to stabilize our economy, our labor market. There is no tsunami on the German labor market. But in fact, the inflation is a threat for a lot of people. And that's why we need step-by-step strengthening collective bargaining to find a fair wage and to have stable societies as good economic views. But once again, coming to the first point, it's not just a debate for a nation. It's not just a debate for a European Union. I think it's time to discuss this on a global level, because we are talking about supply chains. And I'm deeply convinced this time where globalization has to be free and not decoupled. We have to find a fairer way of globalization. And we have to care. Companies and states have to care about supply chains because the current situation shows us that supply chains can break. And my thesis is that fair supply change with fair wages in other parts of the world are more stable than the other ones. And that's why we are passing also a law in Germany for eudiligence for companies and global supply chains. And we're also talking about a European framework for eudiligence law. It's not just the old-fashioned we should, but we have to, I think. This is lessons learned of the crisis, and it's necessary for the future. Minister, you introduced a few topics into the conversation that I want to pick up on quickly before turning it over to Christie to pick up where you left off on collective bargaining and differences around the world. But the first that resonated with me, and I think with the audience as well, is that governments have a responsibility not just to their citizens to advocate for living wages, but governments like Germany, like the US, have an obligation to express advocacy for living wages worldwide. And I think that's an important point in terms of globalization. The second kind of, I want to ask you a quick question on this, you've given us a number. And as an economist, I love it. You've given us a data point. You said 60% of the median wage is the right number. OK, we'll have to pressure test that a little bit, right? But is that the minimum wage that Germany has now, or is that achievable for Germany in the future? No, the euro was a political setting, but it's nearly 60% of the median wage in Germany. In the future, not the state will raise the minimum wage but a commission joined with trade unions and company associations. The funny thing is when I talked to my American colleague, Marty Walsh, who's a great guy. I know, Secretary Washwell. Former mayor of Boston, a Democrat. And I think the United States are a good example that's the question of dignity and respect for people who drive an economy. And in the times of pandemic, we call them heroes of today, all days, and they get applause. It's a question also about respect. And three years or four years I traveled to the United States. I visited my former colleague in the USA in the Trump government. And I went to Detroit. And I want to learn a little bit about why workers vote for Donald Trump. That's for a German social democratic interesting question, why people are voting for president who steal their health insurance. And one question is, is there respect for labor? And I think the Biden administration and Marty Walsh has learned this lesson. That's why they have an initiative called Empower to strengthen and collect the bargaining in the United States. And that's why there is a debate on raising the minimum wage. In the European debate, 60%, not of the average, but of the medium income, is the benchmark of the European directive. It passed. How we do it in the national economies is with the responsibility of the member states. Because even in Europe, there are different traditions of collective bargaining. There is a strong collective bargaining in Sweden. There's weaker one in Eastern Europe and the South of Europe. Germany is like always a little bit in the center, in the middle. But everybody has to find a way in Europe in the future. First, to find a way for a minimum wage, 60% of the minimum of the medium income. And secondly, to strengthen social partnership and collective bargaining. That's by law. Right. Well, that is a great introduction to Christie, who I think you have a very holistic view of collective bargaining and the challenges and opportunities within countries and in between them. So if you could address that question. Thanks. And it's an honor to follow the minister with his comments about the importance of collective bargaining. But I just wanted to back up a minute with the cause of the working poor. Because when you look at these very rich countries of the OECD, the US in particular, has a very high percentage of workers who are in fact poor while holding down a job, even often a full-time job. So how could this happen? And one of the, I think you've pointed out earlier, globalization and technology. I would add a third, which is really a sustained attack across the West, where there have been unions in the past and there are still are in some countries a sustained attack on the institutions of collective bargaining and on support for collective bargaining. And I think that's paid off in terms of higher inequality in those countries, which have weaker institutions around bargaining. And when I say that, it's not only the possibility to achieve a bargaining relationship, which is very hard in some countries. I would even argue in most countries of the world it's very hard. But then it's also not having the possibility of bargaining across the sector. And when we look at living wages in much of the value chain, we talk about these outsourced industries. If we just look at garment production, for example, where you have millions of workers, four million workers in Bangladesh producing garments, they need a sectoral living wage. Because to negotiate one factory at a time, we need these structures and these institutions that actually produce, make that possible. And often that's illegal, let alone facilitated. I think that's an important role that government can play to help bring the, especially again when I think about this outsourced in the globalization, the production, not only of products, but also let's say call centers, where there's millions of workers in the Philippines or security guards and cleaners and so on. So the sectoral part is really important. But collective bargaining on its own has been proven. So many studies came out during the pandemic just before and during to talk about the value of collective bargaining and creating more sustainable economies and reducing inequality, more stability in terms of industrial relations and how important it is. It also raises standards. And when you get to the question of what is a living wage, I think the European Union has chosen to benchmark it against other wages in the country, which isn't really about, is this enough to live on with dignity? It is, you should at least be making half of what most other people make. I think it's, I would argue, I mean, I appreciate, I think it's great work that they've done this and it's also linked to collective bargaining in the sense that, as Lisa says, I understand it, if 70% or more of your workers are covered by collective bargaining agreement, you don't have to have a minimum wage. So that's actually like an opt out, which gives an incentive to have bargaining. And I think that's an important one because in bargaining, it's not only about wages. It is about upskilling. It is about benefits. It is about paid time off and scheduling and so on. And these are choices that we think that workers should have involvement in making some of those are trade-offs. It's not only about wages. And so when we look at the metrics for living wages and there's lots of academics, we look at those and say, I mean, I trust that they're well done and so on, but you'd rather have the workers and the employers together negotiating what they think is a living wage and a wage with dignity, which includes some of these other things that might not be captured within the wage alone. So I could go on quite a bit on this, but I'll stop there. But where you ended is a really important point, which is the flexibility of that definition to change as a result of the bargaining relationship between employers and workers. And so the other participant in that relationship is represented by Denny. Could you explain to us how your company has tackled the concept of living wage, particularly when wages are rising in many parts of the world and the benefits that you see? First, I think usually when you talk about wages, we talk about the cost to the company, right? And we get it wrong. I think our accounting standards drive us to this, but it's crazy today to account for people as cost in the PNL and not as assets in the balance sheet, right? So I think our accounting standards are driving us in the wrong direction. That's the first thing. Second thing is, it's critical for companies. I mean, the challenges of our world will be solved by people. And investing in people and not only at top leaders, but also at all levels of the organization up to the frontline is critical. Two benefits that you were asking for, Nella, is of course we know that when people are financially secure, they demonstrate more resilience. Their mental health, which is a plague today after COVID, mental health is a big plague in the workforce, their mental health is better. You get more engaged people and more engaged means more productive, better loyalty, lower turnover, and I think a better reputation for companies. So yes, there are benefits. Now, you talked about collective bargaining. I think we have to take a sectorial approach to that. There is no simple answer to the question. We also have to take into account that companies are part of an ecosystem. They have clients and they have suppliers. And depending upon where you sit in the supply chain, you may feel an economic pressure within from your clients, from the competitive landscape which doesn't make easy. If you're a small and medium business, it's you don't have necessarily the same negotiating power than large companies. So there's no ideal landscape that tells us that, yeah, you raise the wages to a living level which is still questionable. What is a living wage? Minimum wage for sure, depending upon the countries, doesn't allow people to have a decent and fair life. Let's be clear. So going over that is probably necessary. But collective bargaining agreements are critical to achieve at least through social dialogue a level that people can feel comfortable with. But we have to be very conscious along the supply chain that the end client has a big responsibility and not pushing down a great position in I'm gonna pay all my people living wage. And then not look at how down the chain, how people are paid. The outsourcing component, very critical. Do you wanna add on to that, Christine? I do because I meant to say that in my remarks but I think that there isn't a free lunch, so to speak. I mean that if you as a company want all the workers in your supply chain to have a living wage, you also have to pay a little more. I mean, there's been so many studies done about the living wage in the garment sector and if the workers producing the t-shirts that we wear earned a living wage, what would that cost per t-shirt? Well, maybe it's 10 cents or maybe it's a little more than that but it's not very much indeed and it can't all just be pushed onto the consumer. I think companies have to really, this has been a big project of our sister global union, industry all global union with a project called ACT where the companies have agreed that all of the brands, the big brands that the producers will pay a living wage but that this will be part of the sectoral bargaining and that the companies have to change some of their practices in terms of payment and that's the toughest part because it's not free and I think where the clients are saying we want our direct employees to get a living wage no problem but then when it comes to the ones at the very bottom of the chain that is where the heaviest lift often takes place and so I, yeah. So I want to get back to this concept of fairness then because there are trade-offs and oftentimes it's the consumer who ultimately will pay the costs of those trade-offs and the idea that living wages are variable and even within a country my background is in labor and housing. Housing is a huge part of the consumer budget and there is a housing shortage in most advanced countries and the price of housing is extremely high making it unattainable to have a home of good quality on a minimum wage salary. So when you think about fairness whether it's geographically or what components not just wages alone lead to fairness where does that lead you in your research? Yeah, now these are great questions and it speaks back to these much broader costs of not paying a living wage that follow and Minister Haile was very right to also mention the economic costs which are not just on the labor market for instance innovation remains bottled up in like the best companies in a sense and never trickles down through the creation of more sort of jobs in the middle of the skill distribution so it's also a huge efficiency cost that is there from those and what I meant to say hearing these amazing comments and really great ideas is the business rationale is there but it will only get us so far because of what we call spillovers externalities which are there and which a business cannot and should not be expected to necessarily take into account the costs of housing or the other's fairness concerns and this is where policy really has to step in and the approach shouldn't be the sort of old perhaps top down prescriptive approach but rather much more collaborative and iterative one with businesses and I think the sort of key policy areas which are also the ones that we actually proposed in a report commissioned by Emmanuel Macron in France was one active labor market policies which are in conjunction with employers with this quid pro quo like employers need a qualified trained workforce but society needs good jobs provided in exchange the other is business and regional policies that are specifically conditional on creation of good jobs. Third is innovation policies which are not just labor destroying in a sense as it often the case but actually incentivize labor augmenting labor friendly innovations and the fourth which Kristi alluded to and also the other presenters as well is international standards actually on trade policy for instance which may sound a bit strange initially but something has to be done against this almost social dumping that kind of brings down labor and social standards in some countries and we have examples of that the World Trade Organization puts many standards in place so it's only a step away to think of also imposing some labor and social standards so these are sort of the big I think policy areas that can be addressed. I think social dumping has Mr. Heil's name written on in terms of your introductory comments about the role of countries globally to be supportive of living wages not the social dumping part but the actual reverse of that to really increase social standards. I want to stick with you for that and I also want to ask you about these other components of the living wage structure like skilling and reskilling because the fact is there are jobs you can call them bad jobs as the antithesis of the good jobs that people need to do we need people to do these jobs, bad jobs and there was a time where immigration into the US the pathway to the jobs market was in bad jobs that led to social mobility over time maybe not in the current generation but hopefully in the second generation those bad jobs provided a pathway to citizenship so as we're talking about reskilling and scaling upwards for the jobs of tomorrow that can embrace technology what about the jobs that we still need as a society to do and how do we make sure that we have the wages that can support living a good standard of life? Let me be very frank and outspoken nobody on this panel and I'm very thankful for this debate is naive it's about the old fashioned way it's about profit, it's about wages and it's about productivity and the question is what is sustainable productivity? And if you have the viewer on short time profits it will be very good for a short time but I give you an example after the German reunification 30 years ago we said Germany, well Eastern Germany is a new part of the social market economy of the Federal Republic of Germany needs some years to be more productive and then the wages we can raise it regionally to the West German level in fact this period was too long and the effect was that the skilled young labor force left East Germany and now they have a problem to find them we have investments by Elon Musk and by Infineon first industrial big investments in the last years and they need skilled labor force so once again it's not just a question of respect and justice it's a question about profit and productivity second, I think I'm not just a friend and I agree that collective bargaining is more than wages it's about strategies for reskilling and upskilling but even the states have to do some homeworks and some things one is we have something like an upskilling national strategy with the social partners and we will change some laws there's an Austrian example we want to copy for Germany it's called education time the idea is if employers and employees agree that people can have one year to reskill or two years in part time and the German labor insurance will pay 67% or 60% for the people because you need time and you need money for the time for reskilling and upskilling second idea is to support especially small sized companies if they invest in reskilling and upskilling we can support them it's the idea of a leverage for investment we also have the idea of a network regional networks of small sized companies and bigger ones for reskilling and upskilling in fact we have to be very, very clear with a view on several sectors and in fact you use the word bad jobs I did that provocative and now I'm provoked there is no bad legal job there are bad circumstances, bad wages and we have to talk about the question and I think this is lessons learned from the Kromer owner once again that these people working in these hard jobs are keeping our society and our economy alive and because of this we don't have to just have a talk about this we have to have respect and reskilling and upskilling is not just about reskilling everyone to an academic it's also about vocational training and it's not telling anybody excuse me to become a Magister, Professor, whatever but it's about the question how to secure your employability because of the new necessities and it's about chances last but not least it's once again about productivity and the biggest problem I mentioned in Germany on this question is not the industrial base the big industrial companies in Germany like in my home region Volkswagen have strong collective bargaining strong worker council there's checks and balances for negotiation male jobs in the industry is not our problem service sector female jobs is our issue we're talking about healthcare we're talking about care jobs talking about cleaning jobs if we go today in our hotels we have respect here in Davos who cleaned our chamber and what is our respect for them to give them five euros or dollars as a tip or as a right and this is very important especially for companies which have a demographic problem last but not least it's also about skilled migration this is a necessity for our country additional to reskilling and upskilling and to rising the female participation in work in Germany and to be healthy as you mentioned even physical be healthy to the retire time it's also about demographic changes we need skilled migration and the question how to deal with pair wages because nobody will come to my country if there are not fair wages for them and to amplify your point of the number of people making minimum or less in the United States there's double the percentage of women as there are for men so this is a gender equity issue living wages as well and part of living wages is affordable childcare we know that the care economy was decimated during the pandemic so you see the spiral but I want to get to the cost in me because there is a sense that if you lower the bottom you see this wage compression between your bottom paid lower paid employees your middle paid your upper paid does raising the wages at the bottom of your pay distribution at all affect the medium and top pay earners and what are the costs if you could walk us through what that looks like for you in terms of your workforce well is there a knock on effect of improving yeah the wages at the lower level of the pyramid yes, progressively I don't think it's massive but again if we consider people as cost and not as assets we get it wrong I know that the accounting standards are dragging us to that but it's a wrong aspect and I just want to highlight one thing because we don't have much time but we are entering into or more or less we are in a recession and it seems for the moment that it's a jobful recession and if companies do not think about people as assets and invest and go into into the pattern of higher, fire, higher, fire right, which has been a traditional pattern they will enter into trouble I think it's time, nobody knows how deep the recession is and how long it's going to be and it differs from countries but we really have and it's all a question of wages right, if you see wages as an investment and you see people as an investment that you have to consider you know, the way you manage your negotiations in a different way and I think because we are entering into troubled waters I would urge companies to be very mindful about how they adjust their workforce and keep the talent and redeploy the talent you were talking about upskilling and risk-killing we know talent strategy is there and redeploying talent even with a higher when you have higher wages you are in a way incentivized into ensuring that they are productive so you put them into better jobs and maybe you automatize what you talked about the sort of so-called bad jobs so as we wrap up what I think it's been a very compelling conversation I think there is an agreement on the panel that collective bargaining is part of the solution I would like for you to all give me very briefly because we have two minutes and twenty seconds and counting left your thoughts about what is the one other thing other than collective bargaining that the global community can help do to help ensure that we keep our eye on the ball of living wages and that we adjusted appropriately for inflation it's not a one-and-done concept so starting with you Christy what's your second solution one other thing besides collective bargaining I think there's a lot of things we could do to support collective bargaining I think that there should be minimum wages should be living wages I think that that's a big gap that we see in many countries if we look at the U.S. minimum wage of seven dollars a minimum wage is closer to twenty the living wage so that that is one one important thing is that government should establish minimum wages that are that are living wages and uh... and I think the supply chain attention is really important I think that and as Denise says somebody has to pay in the end but but um the supply chain attention it is where we see so many crises and lastly and I know I should only say one thing that I do want to come back this is a an issue of women's equality it's an issue for immigrants the cleaners the caregivers are almost all women and immigrants and there's no reason for those jobs to be bad jobs they can be the first job on your ladder to mobility but don't have to be bad jobs and I'm proud to say in Switzerland and where I live in the other part at least they did raise the wages for care uh... for care workers low-wage care workers nursing home workers uh... to twenty five banks an hour and that has fell over effects for other women and working any if you could quickly give us your you know what I would subscribe to everything that you said personally and I would just add that particularly on the living wage I think there's still a still a fuzzy notion that we have a don't have a clear definition and having a clear definition of that would would certainly help you know give a direction uh... for for companies for the preferred negotiations and you know the definition is also linked to where you live living wage in London is very different from living wage in Manchester or Leeds so that's something that would help guide the discussions I think exactly professor your research how would you amplify that discussion on solutions yes I think in addition to collective bargaining it's these sort of key policies at the national level in terms of active labor market policies innovation policy and then industrial policies in a different way not necessarily the old way but at an international level I think it's really the discussion around uh... labor and social standards to avoid this race to the bottom that is that is happening and then finally minister heil he's talking about the global level I think it's about fair treat agreements it's about your diligence in not just corporate social responsibility and global supply chains that's why we have a national law and we will have a European law but last year we hosted the g7 presidency and there wasn't a declaration that were binding rules and I'm very happy that this debate is moving forward thank you very much for that and thank you for your comments please join me in thanking our panel