How are you doing Dahlia? You're on the edge of your seat today I'm still reeling from whatever it was Nicki Minaj is up to last night Which I'm really glad we're speaking about because I need to figure out what the hell is going on into it like 2021 has taken it too far But yeah, I guess also the cabinet reshuffle No, I agree, you know, if you're looking at politics as entertainment the Nicki Minaj story is is Better than the reshuffle We will talk about that at the end of the show We will also be talking as well as that Nicki Minaj story about how Boris Johnson's winter COVID plan is Ignoring the science of a deja vu at the moment. I'm feeling a little bit worried If you follow the goings on at Westminster like some kind of soap opera Reshuffles are like season finales There are chance for journalists to pontificate on who's up and who's down But sometimes at least they'll also have real consequences for the people whose lives are affected by the departments that cabinet ministers Manage on that latter front today will provide less excitement than relief Principally teachers parents and students will be delighted that this man Gavin Williamson has finally been sacked. He'll be moving to the back benches We could go over all of Williamson's failings right now It's a very long list But I'm actually going to outsource part of that job to Piers Morgan who said this to Williamson's face in January If you go over your charge sheet your record is leading our education system Repeatedly shamed over school meals by a footballer exam result fiasco The school reopening catastrophe where you basically sent millions of kids back to school for one day to all infect each other And then go back to their homes so they can affect their elderly relatives Which may now be why we have this horrifying daily death number We had a poll at ITV Two weeks ago. We asked England's teachers whether you should resign 92% of them Said you should go and it does beg the question given this series of abject failures that you provide Presided over in the last ten months. Why are you still education secretary? Why haven't you done the right thing and resigned and let somebody more competent take over and do a proper job? Because you have failed our kids That was a very successful destruction of Gavin Williamson's record Unfortunately held on to his job for nine months after that interview which meant nine months where schools were provided with no extra ventilation Where millions were often schools In bubbles after other mitigation measures were ignored and where vaccines for teenagers were only approved two weeks After schools Re-opened I do wonder if there had been a different person in that post whether we would have had the go-ahead for vaccines for teenagers Just that little bit earlier Williamson will be replaced by Nadim Zahawi. He's been promoted from a vaccines minister The next cabinet minister to get the chop was Robert Jenrick Robert Jenrick was in charge of housing He was a better media performer than Williamson, so there are less howlers for us to mine on this occasion He did however oversee some real failings within his department Principle among those is the continued failure to resolve the scandal of leaseholders facing bankruptcy as they continue to occupy buildings covered Inflammable cladding Jenrick was also found to have acted unlawfully when he went over the head of the government's own planning commission to approve a billion pound development by Richard Desmond, a Tory donor Jenrick will be replaced by Michael Gove Gove is being moved from his current job as cabinet office Minister where he's been overseeing parts of pandemic planning and also food supplies after Brexit Let's go to the biggest demotion of the day. So Dominic Robb was not fired He's still in the cabinet, but he has been moved from the foreign office to the Justice Department Robb had been heavily briefed against by civil servants in the foreign office They saw him as lazy and disinterested in the role that impression wasn't helped by Robb deciding to continue a holiday at a Luxury resort in Crete while Afghanistan fell to the Taliban Facing allegations. He had been paddle-balding while Kabul fell Robb suggested that wasn't possible as the sea was closed Dominic Robb has been replaced by Liz Truss Truss has been trade secretary for the past two years Most recently she oversaw the removal of any reference to climate targets in a trade deal with Australia Yet she is still probably most famous for this speech. She gave to Tory conference in 2014 We import two-thirds of our cheese That is a disgrace It's good to good to know someone as four-fritters that will be representing our country Abroad obviously for some reason it seems to be the role where we put our most embarrassing politicians Boris Johnson was in the job before Dominic Robb Actually, that was Jeremy Hunt between then and then wasn't there It's not great Liz Truss's promotion to foreign secretary makes her the biggest winner of this Reshuffle second place probably goes to Nadine Doris She has been appointed as a minister for culture or more realistically minister for culture wars This was her in 2017 Left-wing snowflakes a killing comedy tearing down historic statues Removing books from universities dumbing down panto removing Christ from Christmas and suppressing free speech Sadly, it must be true history does repeat itself. It will be music next Doris will be in charge of negotiations with the BBC and that's another issue on which she has very four-fright opinions in 2020 she tweeted I've deleted a tweet I posted this morning because I realized people would use it to pile in on the person I was tweeting about I was trying to make a point that the BBC Favour strident very left-wing often hypocritical and frequently patronizing views that turn people away This is the person who is going to be in charge of culture in this country of the cultural industries Dahlia, I want to go to you on this reshuffle. Obviously, you know, some of these Sackings are a relief particularly Gavin Williamson. I think teachers across the country will be rejoicing the promotions I mean there the flip side of reshuffles isn't it as you fire a lot of incompetent people and you hire a lot of I mean Equally malicious people in this case Yeah, and I mean there's really not much to sort of choose from from the modern conservative party But but what I notice here is that and this has kind of been both Boris's modus operandi Which is sort of taking figures that had previously been sort of at the margins that had been kind of ridiculed even within the party and You know promoting them into top jobs making them into credible names giving them, you know Unmatched boosts to their political careers, you know pretty patek Matt Hancock as an example about pretty patek is another example You know, we have to remember she resigned in disgrace when she was having unauthorized meetings with Israeli officials as the international development secretary And now you have Nadine Dorris who um, you know Has always sort of been seen as the sort of a little bit loopy even within the Tory party The first time I ever heard of her was in 2011 when she Tried to strip abortion providers of their role as councillors to women who are getting abortions So she essentially came out swinging straight from the bat Trying to kind of pull this country to the right on an issue that you know, you would have thought is quite settled When you know abortion, which is a woman's right to choose That's not sort of something that's been that's dragged into the culture was at least not in England, Scotland and Wales and You know, so that plus the comments that we're seeing here of of stoking up this kind of Hatred of a so-called left-wing media that isn't left-wing at all You know whining about council culture alongside her sort of brief stint on I'm a celebrity get me out of here It makes it really clear that she is quite ideologically committed to a sort of Trumpian style to kind of importing the the US style culture wars as the center of politics Model, which is sort of already underway, but she is particularly ideologically committed to it So it's not surprising that Boris would pick this particular fighter at this particular time He's he's sort of outsourcing the work of stoking up the culture was to Nadine Doris's culture secretary and it's happening now because The government always returns to these kind of culture war Techniques when you know it the state needs to assert itself when the state needs to promote itself as strong and cohesive When it is anything but and especially when the government is failing to act in more meaningful areas And what is a better example of that than the pandemic where you know That kind of Tory small government ideology has caused immense carnage and this idea that you know the government's total lack of presence when You know people really really needed the government to step in and help protect the population and particularly protect workers During a global pandemic So the total absence of a competent government at this time means that it's not surprising that they're kind of Resorting to these cheap techniques of making themselves seem strong and cohesive In order to project themselves as a strong state because in the things that actually matter to people's lives And they are not only ideologically sort of Strapped in this in this arena, but are also deeply deeply incompetent I mean that promotion for Natalie Doris Nadine Doris is definitely to keep the flag flying for the culture wars in the cabinet the switch in Education, I mean I I don't think Nadine Zahawi is sort of as committed to making the culture wars central to his brief I suppose maybe that was slightly harder as the vaccine minister and we'll wait and see but I know that Gavin Williamson While he was completely failing to do anything that was required to keep kids in education throughout the pandemic He was still finding the time to rail against Cancel culture on campus like that should have been about a hundred in his list of priorities But it was the thing he kept coming back to the thing he kept writing comment pieces about and I still think that actually that probably The thing I find most outrageous about this particular reshuffle is that it took this long to get rid of Gavin Williamson Because we have talked about it on on the show so many times before that you know a big part of the problems with this government's Pandemic response has been sort of incompetence and and slow us and and some of it's even been very ideological But nowhere has that been more the case than in Education and it seems to me that everyone in government has recognized for at least 18 months that Gavin Williamson wasn't up to the job That if you wanted to get laptops to kids when they were lockdowns if you wanted to get ventilation in school So that you wouldn't constantly have hundreds of kids self-isolating at home and and kids getting covered and teachers getting COVID Then you could not possibly do that with him in the job yet They kept him there for the entire pandemic. I mean we haven't left the pandemic, but they kept him there for 18 Months how how many days were missed of education? How many kids got infected with COVID-19? How many teachers felt deeply uncomfortable going into work because no Mitigatory measures had been put in place because Boris Johnson couldn't get round to sacking Gavin Williamson and hiring someone who was Remotely up to the job. Now, obviously, we'll wait to see to see if Nadim Zahawi is is is that person? as I say his briefs have been quite different to this up to now, but The fact he he stayed there for so long one of the most important jobs Throughout this pandemic one of the most important jobs in the most important times in you know Since the Second World War to use a complete cliche. It just it beggars belief. I think Dalia any more comments on the reshuffle before we go on to our next story Yeah, I mean, we'll wait and see I think that you know, this is the thing that has defined this government in this Pandemic whether it's coming whether it's about holding You know cabinet ministers accountable or whether it's you know Restrictions it's just been a government of too little too late and this is a time when you really can't afford You really can't afford to do that and especially as you said, you know the leadership that we have seen when it comes to education has been from The unions, you know, where whereby trade unions are basically the only thing that stood in the way between, you know Stu students and teachers going back to really really unsafe conditions and actually the government having to do that U-turn So so kind of like at such a quick speed It's been you know, the unions and sort of Marcus Rashford and that is just really quite embarrassing But I think also one thing that the idea that that these ministers aren't really being sacked for things that they should have Been sacked for I mean what was a better example of that than Matt Hancock Matt Hancock Who was a health minister during a pandemic that went horrifically wrong? Ended up getting sacked because he snogged a co-worker, which who cares like so the idea really You know, it just goes to show that this government is much more concerned with optics It's much more concerned with how it can play the media Than actually protecting the population at this really really difficult time Let's go to a couple of comments Channel right with a three-pound super chat shuffle the pack still get jokers Solidarity Henry the eight fake with a fiver. I think you got one of the names wrong guys. It's Liz distrust very good Of course, if you want to get in touch, you can do so by tweeting on the hashtag tisky sour Let's go on to our next story On Tuesday Boris Johnson presented the country with his COVID winter plan And it's fair to say it was pretty thin on measures to control the viruses spread other than vaccines No new measures were announced to control COVID over the winter We've tried and tested measures to limit outbreaks all but shunted into plan B We will keep Further measures in reserve plan B We do not see the need now to proceed for instance with mandatory certification But we'll continue to work with the many businesses that are getting ready such a scheme in Indeed over 200 events have already used COVID certification Voluntary and it's it's just not sensible to rule out completely this kind of option now When we must face the fact that it might still make the difference between keeping businesses open at full capacity Or not we will also keep open the option of mandating face coverings as they as they have elsewhere or advising people again to work from home and reflecting the fact that When you've got a large proportion of the country as we have now with immunity Then smaller changes can make a bigger difference and give us the confidence that we don't need to go back to the lockdowns of the past Boris Johnson, they're saying that simple measures such as vaccine certification Masking and working from home will all be avoided unless things get significantly worse than they already are Of course that ignores the fact that we already have around 1,000 people a week dying of COVID and that our hospitals are already under intense Strain perhaps more importantly ignores the fact that when it comes to disease control Earlier actions beat later ones that was made clear by the scientist standing next to Boris Johnson in that press conference This was Patrick Valance on the importance of taking action before it's too late the principles which have been really clear, I think right the way across the world are When you make a move you have to go earlier than you think you want to you have to go harder than you think you want to And you need to make sure you've got the right geographical coverage So if this goes in the wrong direction and cases go up followed by hospitalizations It's important that the measures are put in place early enough and they're significant enough One might ask of a Patrick Valance there was speaking to the press and public or to the Prime Minister Standing next to him early action is better than later action Boris Johnson saying oh, we're only gonna take action if things get really bad Later in the conference Valance was again in contrast to Boris Johnson by being pretty clear that we can't just rely on Vaccines to get us through the winter if you think about the degree of immunity We've got and the levels of behavioural restriction that people have imposed upon themselves So people aren't meeting as many people We know contact patterns are still quite a long way down compared to where they were But they are changing quite fast the faster they change the more pressure This is going to come under and that may well lead to a significant increase if you look at Go just across the channel countries where you've got similar levels of immunity and some higher degrees of restriction What you can see is that the cases are going down so you can see we're sort of at that pivot point where things are Flattish at the moment if they go up quickly then as I've said you got to go early in terms of getting on top of it You can't wait till it's late because you have to do more. So that's sort of where we are on that So Patrick Valance, you know, he's standing next to Boris Johnson to basically explain the strategy But everything he said there seemed to be a not particularly subtle dig at the plan as it currently stands He says we are at a pivot point. I mean, we're already at a pivot point That doesn't mean let's wait to see how cases go He's saying now is a moment that matters. We can't wait till it gets worse. He's also saying Look at look across the channel look in look in Europe look on the continent there We are seeing that even with you know similar vaccination rates to what we've got here Just simple measures mean that their cases are falling instead of here where they are Rising I think now we can go to a clip by Chris witty. This is on vaccine passports They've been abandoned for the time being by our Tory government From the science point of view, though, I think nobody would doubt that it's you're safer off If you go to any indoor venue where everyone around you is vaccinated It reduces the probability they will get COVID at all. It reduces the probability They do have COVID they will pass it on and if everybody in the in the environment is vaccinated The chance of a mass spreading event is very substantially reduced because everybody's got it So things that are to encourage everybody to get vaccinated, particularly if they're going to large Mass events indoors You know, the evidence that that is going to be a good idea Is it's rock solid? How that's done is very much a matter for ministers Chris witty there making it clear. He believes vaccine passports would be a very helpful intervention Boris Johnson has other ideas In terms of warnings from scientists going ignored There was also a significant release from sage on tuesday there, of course the group of scientists who advise The government these are the latest models from spy m. That's the sage subgroup on modeling This is on the months ahead You can see here free lines. Some of them are more scary than Others their projections for daily hospitalizations up to november given different r rates on this chart The trajectory model in green represents an r of 1.1 In that scenario daily hospitalizations are projected to peak below 2000 but quite close to 2000 However, if r goes up to 1.5 and stays there we could see 7 000 daily hospitalizations spy m have put those two numbers in there because they think that's the likely range of Plausible levels for the r number Though actually a lot of them have gone on and said look it's it's more likely to be that green line than that blue line Because if we're seeing that many hospitalizations people are probably less likely to go hang out in bars Then they would be otherwise It's always worth saying when looking at these models that there is a great degree of uncertainty Even the scientists who make them say they aren't predictions There were many interesting pieces in that sage document that spy m document that we can Sort of assess with a greater degree of certainty though Again going against what the government are currently doing I think we go to graphic 11. So in the spy m document They say while the relationship between cases and hospitalizations has changed due to vaccination Increasing cases remain the earliest warning sign that hospital admissions are likely to rise It also remains the case that the earlier the interventions are brought into curb growth The lower prevalence is kept reducing the direct COVID-19 burden and reducing the risk of needing more stringent measures to quickly reduce transition They go on There is a clear consensus That continued high levels of home working has played a very important role in preventing sustained epidemic growth in recent months It is highly likely that a significant decrease in home working in the next few months Would result in a rapid increase in hospital admissions. So what you have there is spy m That's the modeling group who are Officially tasked with advising the government saying early action is better. Please take the early simple action So that we won't need a lockdown later in the year the thing that means we can avoid drastic action later Is taking simple action now We Instead the governor said oh no actually the simple actions will only take if it gets really bad That's the opposite of what you're being advised And I mean the the reason I picked out that home working Part is because that was a specific policy Proposal I think really inspire I'm saying look, it's going to be much easier winter It's going to be much easier if people work at home again Boris Johnson saying get back into your offices Maybe if things get really really bad, I'll tell you to work from home again, but we're going to wait until The A&E's are full I suppose why not take the action sooner rather than later Um, we have been speaking for over a year now about how this government seem incapable of recognizing The fact that's recognizable to everyone else in the world It seems the early simple actions are better than letting things get really really bad So one a bunch of people die who didn't need to die And also you end up having to take much more extreme action such as lockdowns. Why haven't we learned anything? Well, as I sort of said before it's a mixture of incompetence and ideological Opposition to the kinds of measures that would keep people safe This includes things like encouraging people to work from home Offering workers support if they need to self isolate And you know, I think one obviously so much of what you've mentioned, which is that a lot of the measures that are in Plan B Are you know things that should be kicking in right now? But also they've not given any indication of what the metric is for even triggering plan B They haven't said, okay This is the benchmark of cases or you know, if there's a new variant There's no clarity about the threshold even even though it's not doesn't make any sense to not bring them in right now So the suggestion that the metric should be hospital admissions Firstly, we we know that being admitted to hospital is not the only risk The only like adverse risk that comes from contracting covid But also having our health care staff been through enough Why do we have to continually push them to the brink when they've already gone through an incredibly traumatizing and difficult and exhausting year And yet we're saying well, we're going to just sort of take you for granted and push you right to your limit once again Um, and then you know, maybe we'll start to do things by which time we as we've learned It will be far too late and this just seems part part and parcel You know another round of the kind of unclear messaging The hap has a timing the poor planning that has really characterized this government's approach To the pandemic, which is why we've not only had an unnecessarily high death toll We've had really considerable fallouts from having to have so many long draconian lockdowns And we've also had a really massive economy hit So it's not even like we've made a trade-off between public health and the economy even though that's not a trade-off We should ever really make um, and I think also Another reason why the government have sort of put themselves in this position Is because of the whole freedom day thing You know, this is why so many of us were really really opposed to the declaration of freedom day Is because it's going to make it much harder to then Reimplement these measures things like a mask mandate, which should have never stopped It's going to be much harder to to once you've already announced freedom day to then go back and say to people will actually That was completely delusional and deranged and we're actually going to have to go back to the situation that we were in beforehand What would have been so much better would have been if we had you know Instead of confusing people with these very misleading messages Even though it might play well in the press for a few days If we'd have actually just been really honest with people manage their expectations said look This virus is not something that we're going to defeat It's not something that we're just going to conquer It's something that we're going to have to learn to live with for quite a long time and learning to live with it Doesn't mean, you know being in constant lockdowns It means learning to live with it the key word being live learning to find a way How we can sort of reorient our society and re what, you know Sort of re yeah reorient our society essentially around the kinds of things that keep us Safe and that includes things like we should expect to have to wear Masks on public transport for a few years to come We should expect flexibility around working from home to avoid those You know can rush our commutes and work and unventilated workplaces That's something that will probably be part of our reality for quite a long time things like, you know having A system in place so that when workers need to self isolate They don't feel disincentivised to do so because they're worried in case they're going to lose income We need a strategy that works for precarious and and you know paper our workers as well as sort of salaried workers So these kinds of longer term lower effort sustainable solutions Are really the things we should be prioritising but as you said it seems like the government has learned nothing But they also aren't interested in learning anything different because the reality of the situation is Goes against their fundamental principles, which is you know, the government should have nothing to do with people's lives The government is only there to punish. It's only there to incarcerate. It's only there to kind of criminalize people But it's not there to you know, provide a functioning health care system or public health mitigation system In the middle of a pandemic. That's not an interesting or you know Useful thing in the government's In the government's eyes. So I think yeah, I think that the government is reaping what it sowed when it announced freedom day But it also, you know, especially as we know that that the efficacy of the jabs wanes after six months you know Especially against the delta barrier variants. We're looking at a another really really tough winter that didn't need to be so tough There's only one bit of what you said that i'm going to push back against actually and it's it's that given Freedom day, which I mean we both agree. They shouldn't have got rid of masks, etc, etc Your suggestion is it would be politically difficult for them to bring back a mask mandate if I if i'm Understanding you correctly and one of the things I find so frustrating about this all being shunted into plan b Is that everything that's been shunted into plan b? I don't think the public would mind at all right vaccine certification I think would actually be fairly popular masks on public transport masks in shops fairly popular. None of these things are You know issues where there is a popular Uprising against them, maybe the julie heartley brewers of of the world But that's not a popular movement the polling on this always shows that there's an overwhelming majority of people who are willing to wear masks on tubes There are measures which would reduce Circulation which I don't necessarily think we should take closing pubs, etc But these are masks certification for me They're socially basically cost-free and the only reason we're not introducing them isn't because it would be politically difficult in terms of public opinion it's that Boris Johnson cares what his really extremist out-of-touch Unrepresentative backbenchers think they have a sort of conception of of freedom That's completely out of line with what most people in the public believe And and that is what is guiding our pandemic policy. It's a real sort of tail wagging the dog situation I think that's true to an extent, but I think it's the confusing element of it It's the fact that people were told it's over We've done it and once you've done that it becomes really hard just from a political comms perspective regardless of you know What whether or not people are necessarily in favor just from a political and you know public health comms perspective It becomes it just becomes kind of it's yet another u-turn from that now I don't think that that's justifiable at all don't get me wrong But I think that's probably this is where I'm just sort of like how could you not have foreseen that this would be an issue And you know you see it in the in public transport You know people are have abandoned masks. They have you know stopped wearing their masks And that's because the government told them it was okay to do that Yeah, no, no, I mean I it's not a it's not a fundamental disagreement I suppose I'm just pointing out how I do I do think that even given their terrible decisions in the past There's very little to stop them introducing these these moderate measures Um, I also think it's often overstated. I think When it comes to pubs and when it comes to sort of socializing I think people have serious pandemic fatigue and we need to be careful about what what Sort of constrictions on people's life we introduce But when it comes to masks, I think it is just really simple Which is if you're told to wear them and everyone else is wearing them You will and if you're not told to wear them and not everyone is wearing them You won't Like I that's just human nature like I think of myself as a fairly independent minded person But when they first made masks not mandatory in pubs I was always I would just do whatever the majority of the people in the room were doing Right. I was it was it was that simple if the bar man wasn't wearing a mask I wouldn't put my mask on to go to the bar if they were I would put my mask on to go to the bar And I just think that this idea that people have stopped wearing masks because they're sick of wearing masks Is kind of a false assessment of what's going on And it's literally just if you tell people to wear masks and everyone is wearing masks They'll do it if you don't they won't and that's why I think it's so stupid that Boris Johnson keeps standing up And saying this is a matter for personal choice We want you to use your own judgment and wear masks with social beings We do things that other people are doing Which is why you should take the simple measure of saying everyone wear the masks It's like a collective action problem really simple to solve and they're refusing to step up to the plate When it comes to conservative back benches having a Panicious Influence on government policy. The next story is probably a better example of that than anything Before we go on to that if you're enjoying our show tonight do hit the like button Most importantly, if you're not subscribed already hit the subscribe button as well Why not do both at the same time? Our Tory government's approach to kovat has been consistently undermined by ignorance Denial and appeasement of the right-wing libertarians who occupy the party's back benches Each one of these deficiencies were on show in this ridiculous answer from saja jabid on sky news How many of you were wearing masks? You can take a look at the picture that we've got the number 10 released yesterday They chose this picture. There's basically 38 to 40 people in that room Poorly ventilated not one person is wearing a mask on the day that you advise us to wear masks in situations like that And that is perfectly consistent with what the prime minister said yesterday and what I said yesterday Because what we said was that people should Consider wearing masks in crowded places when they are with strangers when they are with people that they are not normally spending Time is a conservative back benches to be wearing masks at p.m. Cues later. No, they're not they're not strangers You know, this is they the sort of back benches whether they in parliament in the chamber themselves itself or in the other meeting rooms and things Do you not catch COVID for your friends? It's it's not it's you have to take measures that are appropriate for the the prevalence of COVID at the time That guy is the health secretary is the health secretary He's the most important person in the country when it comes to public health And he's going on national television and saying you don't have to worry about catching COVID if you're among friends Right and now I can imagine you saying it. Oh, you've got a gathering You've got a party. It's not really going to work if you're all wearing masks He's talking about the house of commons, right? That's 650 people The house of commons would function perfectly if everyone other than the speaker and the people who were speaking were wearing masks There's no reason not to wear it other than ideology Now as I say there are a number of ways in which I think that clip is characteristic of everything that's been wrong with the toy response to COVID over the past 18 months one, it's completely stupid to the point of ridiculous as I say you can catch COVID from strangers COVID doesn't care if if Tory MPs went to the same debating society if they trashed the same restaurants at university and public school It doesn't care. They can still pass COVID to each other Secondly, what this does is show a government completely In denial Javid there said we have to take measures that are appropriate To the prevalence of COVID in society that implies we currently have low rates But let's see how we compare to our european neighbors These are new confirmed COVID-19 cases per million people in britain and in our european Neighbors we are running at about 500 daily cases per million people france, the nevelands, germany, italy and spain are all under 150 Now when faced with these kind of comparisons what you'll often hear is that oh, but we've got higher vaccination rates Which means that a case is less serious than it is there actually that used to be the case Now most of those countries have caught up or overtaken us when it comes to the number of people vaccinated It's also worth noting all those countries have mask mandates So this is another situation of complete denial and exceptionalism from the government Which is putting people at risk for no good reason If we can limit transmission In a relatively socially cost-free way just do it They're refusing to do it because they're obsessed with seeing themselves as I find it difficult to rationalize I I have to say The final thing this is Sort of why it represents everything that is wrong with our government's strategy when it comes to policy making Is that that was our health Secretary now he should be making policies that protect our health communicating the latest up-to-date science on COVID-19 yet Instead he's essentially lying to the public on an issue of public health all to justify the pigheadedness of his extremist back benches So he sees the back benches They refuse to wear masks instead of him going on television and saying how do I communicate the best up-to-date science? He's saying how do I go on television and justify the idiotic behavior of the back benches in my party Now if you want an idea of how strongly these adult babies on the Tory back benches feel about masks Just look at this moment from Tuesday's announcement about our so-called plan B We have prepared a plan B of our contingency measures that we can call upon Only if they are needed and supported by the data to prevent unsustainable pressure on the NHS these measures would be Communicating clearly and urgently to the public the need for caution Legally mandating face coverings in certain settings No Like Sajid Javid there had literally Just said if we were in a situation where the NHS is under severe strain. I mean it is already under severe strain, but he's I'm presuming he's imagining it's about to collapse A Tory backbencher MP has heard that in that extreme scenario people are going to be asked to wear masks and he you know He's at work that now like it's It's so pathetic, but it's also incredibly influential because it seems to be dictating government policy Dalia, I want to bring you you in on this and I suppose especially this point of How significant do you think these extremist back benches are? Am I in a way letting Boris Johnson and Sajid Javid off the hook because they are also just as extremist as that person sort of screaming now In the background would it have been Boris Johnson sort of go? No If it was Theresa May who was still prime minister announcing, you know a sensible policy such as this It's very very hard to say because I think a lot of people that are have been close to Boris Johnson have often said that the only thing He cares about is You know the the Murdoch papers and and the Tory back benches, but it makes you think What are you scared that the Tory back benches are going to do like what kind of threat to these? You know, I mean That kind of dinosaur style croaked the idea of wearing a mask doesn't suggest to me that this is some big Early threatening person that I should be really scared of it sounds like someone who's just sort of a bit of a Coward snowflake really so I don't really know what they're worried You know that if the Tory back benches are sort of, you know coming to you what exactly they're going to Do but I think that you know obviously that that interview where Sajid Javid said that thing about You know not you can't catch it from people that you know Is it's actually the precise and exact opposite I feel like you're actually more likely to catch it from someone that you know because you're more likely to you know Being close contact with them. You're more likely to be an ongoing contact with them You're more likely to be you know Hugging them and being sort of near them without a mask on I mean, I don't don't quote me on that I don't know the exact statistics, but it strikes me as probably quite likely I know that when the um In the the sort of the last massive Up up tick in in infections over winter during that Christmas period a big reason for that was secondary schools They were they were secondary school students were a big part of that that spread because they would go into secondary school And then go home with their family like Covid isn't something that you give to someone because you don't like them It's something that you give to someone because you know, you're not following Uh precautions like wearing a mask and I also to finish this off And this is something that I don't think we're picking up on enough the fact that one of the plan b strategies Which you know, it's going to kick in if you know the nhs is on the brink of a collapse And you know, however many deaths per day is to use caution I mean this government has not learned a single thing. What what does that mean throw that in the bin? I'm fed up of it like that's just apps What does it mean to exercise caution when you haven't given people concrete steps on how to be cautious? It's just absolutely absurd and it just shows to me again And this is where I think a bit more of the blame should go on to that from the front bench and the decision makers It's because I think it's not it's rooted partly in political expediency But I think it's rooted more in actually being quite ideologically consistent with the idea that you know Mandating people to wear a mask is like some kind of violation of individual libertarianism, which is of course absurd I think that's such a good point. I hadn't picked up on that actually that plan b If the hospitals are about to collapse will urge the public to use caution Like why don't you urge us to use caution now? you know That doesn't that seems like that should that shouldn't even be plan a that should just be like a A given just I feel until until the pandemic is over like the starting point should probably be like use some caution You know very absurd. It's absurd And it is it's deeply ideological and it has cost Tens of thousands of lives Right, we would have had a much much lower death toll if instead of Following his back benches and following his own I don't know what was like right wing libertarian instincts, I suppose Boris Johnson had just literally followed Science right we wouldn't have been what the Julie Hartley brothers of the world will say if we follow the science Who would have been endless lockdowns? Not at all. That's not really what the scientists were ever Suggesting what they were mainly suggesting because they do actually seem to care about freedoms Despite this whole like oh, they're merchants of doom who just want to increase their control That's the dan woodton line on gb news They they do actually tend to seem quite interested in in balancing freedoms with safety Which means that they are highlighting things such as mass such a certification these things which won't significantly impact our lives But which will keep the virus under control and ultimately avoid lockdowns That's what patrick valance kept saying if we use these simple options now Then we won't have lockdowns in future. So it's not oris johnson on the side of freedom versus the scientists on the side of Totalitarianism it's Boris Johnson on the side of I suppose this sort of anti science irrationalism Which over and over again puts off the inevitable as a tool of party management So he's like oh, they won't be able to oppose mass mandates if the hospitals are about to collapse So I'll wait until the hospitals are collapsing. It's the worst way to do public health imaginable Let's go to our final story, which is on Nicki Minaj Before we do that if you want to support us directly, you can do so at navara media dot com slash Support it is our regular donors that keep us going if you are already a donor to navara media. Thank you so much We do really appreciate it This wouldn't be possible without you We'll close the show with one of the more surreal showdowns of the pandemic This time pitching pop star Nicki Minaj against uk prime minister Boris Johnson and the bbc's political editor Laura Coonsburg the story begins with this pretty wild tweet from Nicki Minaj to her 22 million followers she says My cousin in trinidad won't get the vaccine because his friend got it and became impotent His testicles became swollen His friend was weeks away from getting married now the girl called off the wedding So just pray on it and make sure you're comfortable with your decision not bullied It goes without saying that the vaccine Don't doesn't make testicles bigger or cause impotence that was confirmed by the u.s Center for disease control Um, they felt the need to clarify that after that tweet because Nicki Minaj has so many followers It's actually quite I mean it seems quite easy to work out what has happened in this situation Nicki Minaj's cousin's friend caught an std And then his fiance broke up with him due to infidelity. I assume that's what's happened and it's Led to this rather embarrassing situation, which hopefully won't persuade anyone not to actually take the vaccine The next part of the story is that this came up in a Downing Street press conference. A question was asked to Chris witty In fact and Boris Johnson also commented. Let's take a look Professor witty one of the world's biggest female celebrities Nicki Minaj today publicly links the coronavirus vaccines to impotence Now she's got eight million followers on Twitter. Many of them are young people The young people you're suggesting should get vaccinated What would you say to them and how concerned are you by public comments like that from public figures? So there are a number of myths that fly around with varying some of which are just clearly ridiculous And some of which are clearly designed just to scare that happens to be one of them. That is untrue I my own strong suggestion if I may to Uh media present and not present is repeating them in public actually just give some credence which they don't need They're untrue full stop If you think about where we are actually overall and this is this is a slightly longer answer to your question Because I think it's a very important one the great majority people are getting vaccinated So the great majority people are ignoring these myths And if you talk about people in their fifties and sixties and seventies You're talking about over 90% of people getting vaccinated And very few people actually are actively in this in a sense in the anti-vax group There are a group of people who've got strange beliefs and fine And they make their own choices and in a sense also fine people are adults are allowed to make their own choices However, strange that is a basic principle of medical ethics actually But there are also people who go around trying to discourage other people From taking a vaccine which could be lifesaving or prevent them from having life changing Injuries to themselves And many of those people I regret to say I think know that they are peddling untruths But they still do it in my view. They should be ashamed And I'll leave it at that And I look I'm just on that Steve I'm not familiar with the works of or not as familiar with the works of niki minaj as I probably should be But I am familiar with with uh niki kanani superstar gp of bexley who's appeared many times on Before you who will tell you that vaccines are wonderful and everybody should get them So I prefer to listen to to niki kanani Chris witty's answer there. I think quite reasonable sort of Saying that we focus a lot on people who are peddling misinformation or people who are, you know, genuine vaccine Skeptics and less on people who were just a bit vaccine hesitant They're they're probably the more important group to focus on Back to the the flame war niki minaj was alerted to the fact that she had been brought up in this press conference and tweeted A video of oris johnson and chris witty saying I love him even though I guess this was a diss the accent Yes, boo With a lot of emojis and then she followed that tweet up with this quite Exceptional voice note Yes, hello prime minister Boris. It's niki minaj Um, I was just uh calling to tell you that I thought you were so amazing on the news this morning And I'm actually british I was born there I I went to university there. I went to oxford. Um, I went to school with Margaret Thatcher And she told me so many nice things about you. I'd love to send you my portfolio of my work Since you don't know much about me. I'm a big big star in in in the united states That was very you know, she's not her public don't take her public health advice, but she got a very good twitter game I went to school with Margaret Thatcher. I'm very famous in the states like I kind of I feel like she made up almost I suppose that a vaccine misinformation is more Consequential you can't just make up for that with a funny voice note But she got she got part of the way there. I think I mean niki minaj has put her fans through an awful lot I feel like she hasn't really been okay since cardi b came on the scene and since then she's just been moving like Very very mad and exhausting all of her fans who need to defend her Like I think that like the barbs are tired and you need to give them a break niki But I do like she did say elsewhere on her twitter that she is probably going to get the vaccine before she goes on tour But i'm also just disappointed with her because i'm like if you had told me like a week ago That there would be a fight between where like laura coonsburg piers morgan and boris johnson were on one side And nikki minaj was on the other side You couldn't have paid me enough money to convince me that I wouldn't be on nikki minaj's side and yet 2021 continues To to uppercut me in terms of like just completely spinning me But it was hysterical, but also Get the vaccine. Yeah, get the vaccine. Yeah, she she she has been over the past 24 hours Very keen to stress. She isn't actually an anti-vaxxer. She's saying i'm i'm open to this I just want people to do their research. I suppose a problem with that line is I mean the research she's Doing and encouraging people to do isn't isn't the kind of research you should really be taking on board if your cousin's friend Got swollen testicles and then their wife didn't marry them, you know, that's That's not oh, that's not scientific research. So I do think that while, you know, everyone should do their own research That's fine. That's good But we should also recognize that Well, I personally do this I recognize that my knowledge of vaccine safety and vaccine efficacy is is very much limited And so if there's an overwhelming scientific consensus that these are safe vaccines and they're very effective vaccines Then no matter what you tell me your cousin's friend had happened I'm I'm not going to actually consider Listening to you as me doing research. I'm going to just dismiss that out of hand, which probably Nicki Minaj should have done as well, right? Yeah, I think with the the people who do their own research It's like there are people whose job it is to actually do this research and I don't think that you have a full, you know Lab testing lab, you know in your garage where you're going to like personally test these vaccines out But also it's just like oh, is this what men are doing to like get out of cheating accusations now Like when they are getting stds from cheating on their girlfriends They're just gonna be like, oh, no, it's a side effect of the vaccine. That's why, you know I have like I've done all kinds of madness. It's just it's innovative. I have to rate it But also don't bring your cousin's friend into it like that It's disrespectful The other people were suggesting is that maybe the cousin's friends fiance was a bit harsh to call off a wedding Because he was impotent for two weeks But I think probably more likely she actually knew that it was I mean, maybe she called off the wedding because the excuse was so ridiculous Let's go to laura coonsburg. She was caught in the crossfire. She had quoted menages response to boris johnson saying 2021 everyone You know, I don't like the way that laura coonsburg tweets And nicky menage responds Yes, 2021 when jackasses hang onto my every tweet but can't decipher sarcasm and humor and can't read Go away tumbo You still are you still siding with with coonsburg johnson And witty after that drive by So tough, man. Why do you have to do this to me, nicky? Let me support you in this if it was anything else I have been like great. Let's go but I have no choice. I guess it's my duty As you know, having a teeny tiny platform No, you're yeah, I I should take my response I was I was starting to kind of be team nicky, but you're right We should take our we should take our platforms more seriously Even if one side is is is more funny and talented and likeable If they're the ones promoting vaccine misinformation, we should side with the with the people who who aren't Um doing that. Let's go to a couple of comments. Joshua Youngerman with five dollars while I was initially against vaccine passports We have a version of them in new york because many places require proof of vaccination and they work Um, that's I've been making the argument on this show. I disagreed with ash about that on monday Um, so there's there's been a lot of vaccine passport discourse on this show I actually i'm not surprised by that comment from joshua youngerman I do feel like if they were just brought in Then the controversy would suddenly fall away because it would it would you know become clear that they're not actually That problematic, um, not that they're without problems. They have some problems, but I think on balance But I've had this debate before um oliverkant with a fiber Is there any indication of doing nothing to get the nhs to deliberately collapse? Just curious really? um I don't think there's a possibility that should be thrown out of hand so that's the idea that You know, it's often put forward that the conservatives want the nhs to collapse so that they can then privatize it I think that's I don't think that's the Probably the best explanation for why they are being so lax when it comes to covet 19 I think there are probably simpler explanations than they explicitly want the nhs to collapse I think it's it's probably more um A lack of care Than outright malice on that particular front, although I mean you could say a lack of care to that degree is downright malicious um On a different note some breaking news at 10 p.m. Tonight the prime minister will make an on-camera address alongside u.s President biden and australian prime minister scott morrison on a strategic national security announcement They're expected to jointly announce a new trilateral security partnership that will see australia scrap a multi billion dollar program To build french designed submarines and build a nuclear powered fleet with us and british technology instead australian media are reporting so we're going to have a new military alliance Between the uk the u.s and australia which has gone very well in the past searock Dalia it has been an absolute pleasure speaking to you this evening It's been lovely to be here. Thanks for having me. I have to say you look incredible with that new camera Really really does make a difference Um, we will be back on friday at 7 p.m. So do make sure to hit the subscribe button For now you've been watching tisky sour on navara media. Good night