Are you guys finding Twitter fun? Nope at all Twitter Just waiting to get banned for something stupid, right? I feel like that's the same for me It's just a matter of time before I get bad if I say something wrong Don't misgender somebody or tell someone to learn to code But it's not a ban because they said to learn to code Oh, yeah, so when I someone in my server got a 12-hour suspension for telling polygon polygon They should learn to code. I was there because when you get fired. It's like you're rubbing it in. Oh Is that how they would justify that because I'm curious what that would come under it's like this No, exactly attempt is yeah, that's the justification for it Yeah, well people have been people have been spamming it on mass It's kind of become just a spam. Oh, like you're adding fuel to the fire sort of thing Yeah, remember if a lot of other people say it and you say it well It doesn't seem fair, but I guess you know Twitter being fair is a really a thing Yeah, I'm unfortunately logged into this chat is my actual name, but whatever You can swap that in the top right right in YouTube. Oh really use account I think oh well not on the chat like I'm assuming you have a yeah, it's fine Okay Anybody wants to find my address slash my tires go right ahead. It's a Toyota. I don't care E-fap 25 great up live This episode is called the e-fapening everyone Get ready. Oh, yeah, we haven't used that yet. That's That's surprising. I'm really I don't believe that E-fapening wait, was that one all the was that one all the celebrity Nudes got stolen. Why do you got to bring porn into it all the time dude? Yeah Oh my I slowed down our My uncle represented one of the kids who stole nudes from one of the celebrities eyeclad Really he got him a great deal. He was like he's just a kid. He just wanted to see naked whoever it was How old is the kid Oh, he was probably like 19 or something. I was gonna say like what what was his sentence after I don't remember What it was he just got probation because my uncle is a king Trying to remember what my uncle's out of here someone had to be in jail for that I could just want someone did go to jail Well, the thing is that like, you know, it there was different like groups He was like one kid who like got pulled into it, you know, some dudes Ring lead. There was multiple people doing it Yeah North koreans Yes Yeah, the north the north koreans were definitely part of it Oh, I don't know if I I don't know if I buy that they hacked sony. It's it's a little it's a little out there Yeah later Um, right. Anyway, so since that's a decent chunk of time for people to be jumping in, uh I will go quick. You got the kid got eight months in prison. It's pretty good. I'm gonna say eight months Yeah, I don't know because I don't know what the precedent is for something like that, you know Is that is that now with a good job there? Because like that must have been a About the fact that you can't remove the photos. I mean no matter what they do There's some other country server is going to be hosting them for forever It's not that I've seen them or anything. Not that I've looked into this I'd say that's a pretty light sentence man. If somebody took a picture of me. I didn't want being out there me being naked Oh, uh, there he goes So uh in the middle of his pun The only way to fix that is to start working out and get yourself looking really good and then release those nudes Yeah, and then you could still probably get some money out of suing them as well. Let's just win win But uh Unfortunately, it took us a while to get the stream started because veto's been trying to fix his ability to stay and speak And it looks like it has not been fixed. I don't know what's causing it But uh, he may be popping in and out throughout the stream even though he's supposed to be a Consistent guest So in the meantime, I guess we'll just Oh Hello, a lot of people want you to ask me about my you get to look at women comment. I would love to I would love to We'll uh work on that. I will give I'll give everybody an intro. We'll totally talk about that. But uh veto are you there? Last one too. Yes. Hello. Uh, hopefully it stays longer this time.  I do discord for two hours straight. I have no problem I don't know what's it's because you're in the probe or whatever Probably the server is Localized next to you and not yeah, it is a western europe Uh server right now. It's his region western europe. So that's probably what's screwing me over Well, if you can't connect to europe I don't want to connect to europe. I probably have a racist router that doesn't like you Wait, can I change it to like america u.s central happy better? Hello Yeah, okay, I guess maybe that'll improve it. I don't know. Hopefully we can we're weeding out the weak links here Is this what's happening? Um, is this v2 weak link in this analogy? No, but come on get it together. I know right? This is like Come on. Uh, but yeah, okay. Oh now it's u.s east. I have no idea what discord's doing or what it wants to do, but uh Okay, so anyway, this is efab number 25 The last one we did was like considered a season finale because of the insanity that took place 25 years of efab 25 years It's it's insane. I don't even know how we managed to oh, I just invited you to a server for no reason to ignore that Um, wait, this is a really funny pun majorly more like minor p. You know, that's actually pretty accurate I take a lot of minor p It's true. I do. Um We got got me pegged We it's been said now the season one villain of efab was quintin reviews season twos villain was jack and eric put together So we're excited to see what happens in season three considering this first episode as as many people may have Noist there's no dishonored wolf. It's because he was essentially busy for the whole week We're gonna try and obviously have him back uh next week next time But because of him being unable to be here. We've got two guests two Wonderful beautiful guests the first hello.  Jesus christ. You're not a guest. Oh wait. No, that's the meme, right? Yeah rags. How you doing? Uh special guests, uh, we're doing great. I'm glad to be on again Mm-hmm You too if it'll keep me on for more two seconds. Oh, right. Yeah, so while while v2 is here, uh You you what don't you want to talk about your channel and and why you decided to degrade yourself by coming here today Oh, uh, my name is vido. I don't really know what my channel is I just kind of make stuff But I made a video about star wars that a lot of people liked What was it a? Jedi a cinematic failure But you did that you did that video.  I'm sorry. Oh, I'll settle for the the jack of criticism of the yeah Oh, I don't want to go for queen personally. I'll have the jester of criticism. You can be my jester. I got no problem with that You know, I I'm I'm so embarrassed. I was ripping into you. I didn't even know you did that hilarious video Did you watch did you watch that one? Oh, thank you, sir. Be honest I I just looked at the thumbnail and that that was enough to just crack me up. I mean Good work Yeah, people got real mad about that thumbnail. Uh, I still get people being like, how could you treat general holdo that way? make her look I'm like, I don't know man. I just played around with the liquefied tool in photoshop I wasn't really thinking that hard about it I just mean the whole cinematic failure part. That's just as hilarious to me Yeah, I don't know why that that phrase has A cinematic failure would be if the movie didn't get finished like if it wasn't a film it would be Maybe there's an argument to be made I've definitely had arguments people would they're like You should it's all right. It's a good time. But yeah, definitely. I don't know if that phrase makes sense, but What do you get there? I see other people making youtube videos using it now and I'm like, oh, you gotta have a hot title You know, you got to have a hot title and a hot thumbnail with a hot See what you do. It's very clickable.  Oh a good failure You could just you could have gone with like an embarrassment to cinema Something like that Yeah, I mean that's a potential clickable one too. Um And so, yeah, the uh, so not a good good to have you here soon It would be fun to talk about um anything but Star Wars, right? That's probably not a topic that we'll cover. I seriously doubt it, you know, why would anyone Talk about that Um, you know, if you guys want to talk about Star Trek discovery instead. I'm I'm sort of down, but I've I've not seen it, but do you like it or hate it? It definitely has a lot of hateable elements like I can totally see why A lot of people are calling it, you know SJW propaganda. I mean it is very diverse You got to look with like a magnifying glass to find like a straight white male on the show that isn't like a bad guy But you know, that doesn't bother me, but I it is very Heavy with that But all that aside, I think it's a really solid Star Trek show I mean, there's so much stuff that relates to the the past.  I mean, I don't know I think if you've watched all of Trek, it's it's got a lot to enjoy, but You know, it's not perfect. It's definitely got your TV drama issues, but uh Yeah, I was a little confused. So so discovery is not part of the official Star Trek timeline now I I know that people thought that yeah, because there's like the Kelvin universe and everything it is I mean, it totally is, you know, they Spock's in it Pike is in it They they talk about the you know, the Klingon war is referenced a lot in in old Star Trek So it definitely relates. I think it's kind of like the first JJ You know reboot film where it it started out as being this Prequel but by the end of it. It's like, yeah, there's these two timelines happening at once So yeah People in the chat are saying it's not officially the original. I don't know. I think no, they're probably right I there's two original timelines now like apparently You have to interpret the prime timeline. I don't I don't there's two universes But but it's I don't know to a guy like me who hasn't seen every single episode of every series It definitely feels like it's all just in the same Realm but you know that could be just because it's consistent I don't know I was actually gonna say to make sure because I'm totally cool with this talking But I was gonna say we also have major lee if you'd like to tell everybody a bit about your channel Then I'll I'll I'll get you up to speed on on a potential of of your uh, your rep here on eFap Not to say that. What do you want to know dude? I mean, I'm I'm I am at your mercy. Just Uh, your channel you what would you say your channel is all about?   You got some star wars stuff But I started out really not intending to cover either of those things. I wanted to do, you know Videos about random stuff, but really those were getting no views and I like talking about video games So I started doing that and I like talking about star wars. So I started doing that and uh Then it kind of turned into this character Sort of that I started to kind of keep up Because to me it's just it's just fun.  I love it How have you found the response to that uh position? Well, I I totally get that the shop system was terrible I mean, especially when the game first came out, you know, the the prices of characters were insane But even then I mean, there's so much good stuff to enjoy in that game. The campaign mode is awesome It actually has a storyline that bridges Return to jedi to force awakens and yeah, it's not amazing. It's not perfect. It's not like Cinematic quality, but I thought it was pretty damn good And there's a lot of funny lines that they give to han and lando billy d is in it So it really hurt that the campaign is terrible.   I just thought they did a really good job You know, you got luke.  Uh, yeah, I have no play the graphics. Yeah, it looks terrible. Well, it looks amazing I mean, maybe it sounds terrible, but you got it. I mean, it's a beautiful World that you're in the animations looked really funky the uh, it looks like it was there a mini game Where luke can squeeze the green milk out of some alien titty because I would play that I really wish that was in the game.     I don't know what EA is up to It's something bad. I'm not gonna buy a multiplayer game with pay to win microtransactions That's a leap Every time I buy it, you see the thing is it doesn't really affect the game that much I mean if all you care about is winning then yeah, but it clearly does it clearly does It doesn't affect the game, but it does affect whether or not you win Because when you're playing the campaign mode, this has nothing to do with the microtransactions If you're talking about multiplayer modes, then yeah, I mean, I don't care about some lame campaign Well, then don't buy the game. Yeah, if you're just playing it for the online experience Then yeah, you're gonna be you're gonna be like, all right People are better than me.  Okay, the things that if I go online Why would I be worse than anybody else like Money to get the strong star cards. Whereas you would have to what is the star card? Why is it strong? Is that a character? It's an upgrade for your It's like it's like Okay, it's like it's for specific attacks like let's say ray has like a lunge attack One of the star cards would be like lunge plus two or you know, whatever it's like you upgrade your moves And you can customize how you do that They make your character objectively better sometimes in serious ways You know the the thing about the game is that I think you have to be Just a massive star wars fan to like it It's like you have to be just into the fan service if you're looking for like a a competitor to like you know Call a duty or rainbow six, then You just play those but a game should be a good game on its own, right? Yeah, because it sounds like what you're describing is like hey, it's got fans It's yeah, but look, I mean people want fan service in episode nine They're saying they they just want to go back They just we just want palpatine and pad may and just bring make luke alive We just want the characters to be together.    We usually blame. Yeah So many hours. They're the ones that would have pushed. Yeah, but I'm not going to support a game if I have to pay for a game if it especially if it's not a free to play game Like this released as a $60 game with pay to win microtransactions in it. Like that's that's awful. That's terrible. That's also totally normal But yeah, it's it's not totally normal. No, it's not totally normal Do you think microtransactions are normal the question becomes like why help normalize it? You can go I don't want to help Just just put it out there god of war One of the most successful games of the previous year didn't have any to microtransactions I mean a lot of games just reasonable to have any. No, I mean it's like when you said it was doing It's normal and massive multiplayer online. Yeah, of course.  Are you really? You don't like you don't say I'm not saying it doesn't happen I'm saying normal is a relative to him. I don't think it's But it depends on the game too. I mean if we're talking about a We're talking about a multiplayer game. I mean apex legends just came out. I don't have to spend money on it You know, it's cosmetic overwatch Cosmetics yeah, like the difference. No, it's not the same with every other battlefront Different thing the campaign regardless and it's If I just want to play the multiplayer that i'm gonna have multiplayer sick No, you're gonna have a great time.  I'm gonna be worse than everybody else.   It doesn't matter. You don't need star cards like dude. I'm like level. It makes you objectively better If you're telling us it literally says ability of your character plus You know You know, it doesn't define that's not that you would win, but it certainly increases your chances definitively Well, how else how else would you want to have it? I mean Yeah, like veto just cosmetic only But yeah, but then there's no fun in upgrading the character now you get to shitting me You get to upgrade their moves. That's the whole point You got you when you upgrade a character you want to upgrade their moves not just their outfit Yeah, but why do I gotta spend money on it? I don't buy final fantasy and every time I level up my character I gotta put a dollar in the slot. I try to play games You can have a character upgrade system that I don't kind of pay money for Right I understand the fun of upgrading a character. Absolutely, but just give me I'll play the game and get experience points and spend them Don't be like, oh 100 dollars and you get a magic card that usually you're spending 100 dollars you You need to get You have lots of classes lots of weapons lots of and there's all kinds of balancing That allows each other to counter each other depending on what you're picking up that creates the matter You don't just go this thing.  I dude.  I'm telling you. Have you played the game at all or have you just watched a video? I watched many videos and I'm not buying the game Pick up Clarify Talking about a game you never even play. Why are we even wasting time on this? Let's move on It's fun to play guys, it's fun to play chess when you don't have half the pieces, you know chess is more fun It's pay-to-win game that i'm defending you can't talk about it I was about to say if we're talking specifically about it, you should play it If we're talking specifically about you haven't said anything that's wrong the pay-to-win elements I would never utter a word The the length that you've done. I would never do that for a game that I've never said that's right What have I said that's wrong nothing you just said too much You never played the game never said anything wrong You can judge things you haven't played if somebody tells me Where a guy gets if a guy if there's a movie about a guy getting a nail jammed in his deck for two hours I can objectively say yeah, that that probably is not a thing I want to say, you know, so if you tell me there's a star wars game Or I gotta pay 20 bucks to be as good as everybody else. I can go. It's not my kind of experience All right To clarify what what you're suggesting is that the the pay-to-win elements and are like not that important You're saying like they don't make that much of a deal doesn't matter game is still good. I'm sorry. I just don't care No, no, I get it. But the fact that they exist is a very poor practice It's not perfect. Look, you got to at least give the game like a four or a five or so I'm not saying it's a 10 out of 10 game But to give it a zero it's like dude. You're ignoring the good elements I'm not saying you did but people did I'm that's what I made my video about because there were a lot of zeros So I'm just saying you got to just be realistic. It's not the best game But it's like an ethical judgment from a lot of people where if you you cross that line It doesn't matter what your game is because you've all right. Well, that's sort of thing I'm not going to argue with that if you want to be have strong principles. That's that's fine. But you know Just don't don't overreact. It's not the end of the it's just a freaking game. I mean, yeah, it's you're not going to Get every trophy It literally doesn't it doesn't matter it really doesn't matter It's still it clearly does to people my veto baton zero play the game All right. I'm excited. I can't wait It's like nine Hand me the nails. They're going nine. He says it's good.   Just I'm just saying I mean, it's on the same level The beautiful analogy Fair enough fair a lot of giving my giving my money to EA feels like jamming it.  That's my thought EA has to earn my money I'm not just going to throw them money so that I could spend more money Yeah, it's a bit of a weird. That's the thing because You like to earn How old is this game by the way this game's what like three four years old at this point two years only Play was it 2015 for the first one and no one's gonna buy it. No one's gonna play it. I'm gonna send you a copy I'm gonna send you my copy. I will play it.  I haven't I don't know if they've changed anything in the game since all the Like of a what kind of changes they make so I know that they tried to reduce the amount of grinding you needed to unlock certain things Well, not to mention the insane amount of free content They've given you like the last Jedi content the solo characters the new stuff from the prequels You know, like I said, you got Dooku and Grievous and Obi-Wan in there But I mean, yeah, they they did reduce drastically the prices Of unlocking shit, which I don't even think was that good of an idea because now you really made yourself look stupid But now I think a lot of the main characters are all free On EA's payroll or something you talk. I just insulted them. What are you even talking about?  I'm sure You know, what was the point? I can feel angry. Yeah, I'm fine with the people who spent Money on objective advantages and what should be a fair multiplayer game. Yeah, I don't care if they feel shafted People in the chatter saying that uh, it is now only cosmetic. Yeah, I don't know Apparently you cannot you cannot buy star cut upgrades with money bent over even more They they bent over backwards even more. I don't know if it's bent over. Fairer minutes for their players Yeah, I hope that they would well, I remember the biggest thing being now the game Didn't they flaws are like minuscule Well, didn't didn't they prove that to be able to play as Darth Vader He needed to grind for about 900 hours when the game came out Well, something ridiculous. Yeah, I'm sure he was expensive.  Yeah, that was what caused the initial controversy.  You know, probably talking in circles about this game I think we reached a nice little conclusion there, but uh We we we are in a in a watch together. They were we're not gonna look at we usually look at meme videos At first, but we're not gonna do that because wolf's not here and he needs to appreciate That he's in a lot of them. So we will I mean, we got a chunky chunky intro there. Anyway, so the first video and possibly the only video No, not the kittens Line it up. I need to use the restroom real quick. I'll be right back All right.  Anyway, it's a video called Uh Star Wars the fandom menace and I believe it is a video that is critical of the negative response to tlj um Not got a huge amount of views and it's not like uh You know the guy who made it. I don't know. He's got 34k so this is relatively a Strong channel maybe but um, yeah, the idea will be I haven't actually seen this video I've only seen like the opening and I'll just be curious to have a look at it And then maybe we can talk about the movie and possibly the uh the culture surrounding it I really hope I really hope he sticks it to those incel man babies But uh, yeah, not every tlj haters an incel man, baby. We we know I am, you know, I I can't hear you from your basement v2 Test one too. Oh, no, never mean you can't hear me. Uh, oh, yeah. So by the way, I just Should say that we did cover your video uh in like e-fap. I want to say Like 16 17 one of the earlier ones. Hi video. No, no, no majorly. Please. Um, oh, I'm aware Um, and and yeah, I assume I got a tsunami of comments after that We we enjoyed the hell out of it. We may have disagreed with it hugely, but uh, we really The uh, I think by the way, were you responding to you responded to a bit of veto's video in that video? Did you or did you not? No, I I honestly haven't seen his complete cinematic failure Uh, I just I just loved the the title so much. It just you know, you know, the I'll never forget The you get to look at women comment Wasn't that in response to the the part where veto says something like there's there's like five women on the screen at the Same time right now. No, no, I I don't think uh, I was aware of anything he had said That was just in response to you know, amazing lucas just being a clown. Okay. Okay. Well, yeah We thought that was a hilarious counter argument. Um, oh, yeah, I mean I I you you gotta understand I am fully aware that a lot of things I say are very easy to make fun of It's I I want you to make fun of it. That's the thing.   No, wait, is your opinion your opinion or is your opinion Baiting it's my it's my opinion. I I do I do like the casting in the film I think uh, Laura during is hot. I think Billy is hot Yeah, I mean, you get I mean I look at that She's wearing around her neck and I'm like, yeah You know the thing about hall doe is like The reason why I love the character is because yeah, it's not what you'd expect She looks like this purple-haired lady that that doesn't fight isn't a general or an admiral But she steps in and then when she You know cuts po down in that next scene You see that she is really who this person is. She's really an admiral She has she probably has what it takes to be lair's successor And she does because she teaches po the exact same lesson that leo was trying to teach him, you know There's only dead heroes dead, uh, what was the line like something Dead soldiers no here dead heroes no leaders. That's what leo said to him. And it's just like doesn't hold Oh become a dead hero That's the Han but but but there she's still a leader though. She led she still taught po the lesson. Yeah, that's the thing like Yeah, they all died But the lesson that luke gave at the end of the movie, for example Was that you can use non-violence to succeed in a war Which should be the lesson that the jedi are teaching us at the end of this movie And thank god that this film She didn't find what she hates to defeat the first order No, that's well, that's that was the whole point po went ape shit got the whole bombing fleet killed in In her eyes. Yeah, it was and maybe it wasn't the best. Oh, it actually wasn't po Well, it wasn't even that bad of an idea. That's the thing. It's like everyone makes mistakes. It's not po No, he said it was po. It wasn't po. Who did that? Oh, who got the who? Wanted the bombing squad to attack at the beginning the bombing squad did it on their own on orders from leo Well leo wanted them to go back and not destroy the dreadnought and po went against her No, i'm confused She ordered them in but then po took it to the next level. He's like we have a chance to take out the dreadnought and lay It was like no turn back around and then he shut her off Yeah, he knew it here, but she can still talk to the bombing units. Yeah, she ordered the bombers out That was her She she didn't want them all to get killed. She slapped him. She scolded him. She said she did and i Considered a bit of a reckless move considering she had all of the power to be able to draw them back She made the mistake too of putting po in charge of that mission maybe Yeah, wait, how does the how does the chain of command work there? Because she goes all the bombers go in and then they're like, all right leo gave us that instruction But now we listen to po on whether or not to turn back I don't know It's not very well translated in the film because it shows po muting here, but it doesn't mean that everyone else can't hear Leia Like Not to mention the invisible bombers appearing from nowhere once po brings them in Maybe po was like mauler and he just like kicked leia out of the chat and they all just didn't hear I I I I guess that I don't know. Yeah, you're right. That wasn't explained, but you know, I don't know It didn't really bother me. I mean it just felt like He was going against her and that's great drama by the way The fact that you see these heroes budding heads, it really fleshed out I think that leia and po are not heroes No, I thought you meant the one with uh holdo and po No, no, no, I mean the very opening scene is great. I mean, it's such a great dynamic Like the idea of two good guys clash on what should be done I just uh Like for instance, by the way, if they decided to turn back unless those bombers have hyperdrive They never would have made it back to the radis before they'd get shot down It's just slow they were Yeah, I mean And if they have hyperdrive, holy shit, they should just hyperdrive one bomber into a and they do by the way The the ships do have hyperdrive. We actually checked.  It's not even about that. You're right. It's not about that No, your thing So That scene I like all the explosions and spaces But no to go back to the women To go back to the women comics People love that. Uh, yeah, I just really do like Looking at the women in this film. I think it's well shot. Do you think rose is a very attractive woman? I think kelly mary tran is very attractive. Definitely I don't I wouldn't say that the character of rose is supposed to be attractive I mean, you know rose is the person that they needed she she needed to be this pure fighter who lost Her other half her sister and that's why she will not stand for finn being a deserter and she will not stand for him trying to He tried to leave and an escape. Yeah, but when did he join the resistance? Yeah And yeah, but he was gonna steal an escape. No, he was just he offered help. He was never part of the resistance Yeah, but well, whatever. I mean she knew that he helped with the star killer base mission She thought he was a hero. She knew that people looked up to him. He was important They needed him and rose just needed to be who she was to get people in line She's probably gonna have that same role in episode nine.  How was rose. How was rose getting fin in line?  There's like four scenes where she Slaps him and tells him what's up. Yeah, tell tell me tell me Well, the very first one is when she tases him the next one is right after that How was that getting him in line? Because the dude really I just said that because they need fin fin is gonna be a big Big part of episode nine.  How was fin out of line? Dude, he's he's filled with flaws that character In the scene that you mentioned, where was he out of line and how he tries to escape in the pod? With his back-up hack Well, why is that to go get ready? Why is that bad? He's trying to save someone's life. Yeah, that was unnecessary It was a dumb thing to do no matter what whether it's cowardly or whatever It was not the right decision. They needed fin first of all fin had the whole plan That didn't work, but at least he tried and what was fin going to do. Sorry, which plan Him and rose came up with that plan to sneak on to the the supremacy Right guys, but that's how are they gonna devise that if fin escaped? Well, that plan didn't go any ways Sure, it didn't but still that that's the movie though. There would be no movie if you He was gonna fight what he hates but what he needed to do with save what he loves Is true Like although sometimes she saved and I don't understand what the difference is but okay I Say that one more time. I didn't quite catch that He he was fighting what he hates but what he needed to do was save what he loves That's how he was fighting what he hated That's the line, right? I'm curious. Yeah, I actually genuinely want to get your answer on this So, um, would you say that holdo was a defending what she loves rather than attacking what she hates in her maneuver? Not the suicide maneuver. No, but definitely in the whole escape plan.  That's what pissed the audience off So you think that she was doing the attack what you hate when she did the hyperdrive thing She did both when she was loading the escape pods. Yes If you can do both, what's the point? I was going to say do anything. You gotta be balanced. You gotta do both The rose says that you shouldn't do one and you should do the other She says sometimes it's better to say Obviously you have to fight that's how we're going to win this thing. Yeah, well that particular moment.  We had page. We had holdo. We don't need fin That's too much. Why didn't they get it? Oh, but if they hadn't a blasted open the wall, they could have stayed there for indefinite amount of time Wait, if they hadn't blasted open, you mean the wall at the end?  It's protecting what he loves or no There was a better plan anyway Or was he hating what he saves? Hold on. He's getting caught. Luke Luke had his own amazing trajectory Okay, yeah, Luke did the same thing. Yeah, he chose not to fight Kylo. See if Luke physically went there He loved. Yeah, like everyone he loved If everyone like kevin smith got their way and luke got in the x-wing or whatever physically went there Only two things could have happened either he kills kylo or kylo kills him How how it didn't how do you figure that those are the only two endings? What else is going to happen? What else is going to happen? He delays kylo and then escapes. All right. Are you Dude kylo is strong.  I'm sorry.  This should call him darth wall I mean, uh, I mean rey be kylo Of a fight is who's more sure sure rey be kylo, but she's the good guy. Well, we don't want the good guy to lose No, be fair Kylo's lightsaber has three beams and luke's only has one Well, yeah, there you go. So there's that more buffs. So he wins except if the other person's a good guy In which case it doesn't matter. I do want to sort of highlight rags his point there I found it interesting that you said like what can even happen if luke goes there personally It's like do you not there's a he would have died he would have died or kylo What I was going to say was something has to happen as a writer You have like a thousand options and you limited it to kylo dies or luke dies It's like so many other things could happen Name one I'll just Imagine in episode five right cloud city luke and vader go there the only two options is that luke dies or vader dies There's no other options Yeah, because he he escaped but look, I mean, oh one of them escaped that's possibly wasn't that maybe that wasn't possible Unless you were not physically there. What do you mean? Maybe it wasn't Why why wouldn't order?  There's literally a precedent. Yes. It there's there's a precedent set for this being able to happen So yes, of course, that's a possibility. That's a possibility, but I don't think that would have been that good I'm sorry. Oh, so it is a possibility. So there's more than two possibilities That's not a good one.  I like it when people like yeah, that could have happened But it would have been for me Dude, I'm just saying it's not that effective. I know you said I'm right. Why wouldn't uh, why wouldn't it be effective? Because it's just not a big happening. Just someone getting it's not a big happening That's what this is leading up. I would refer you to empire strikes back the biggest happening in the series Yeah, yeah, okay, but look we got to take it to the next level by the way the whole fact that kylo and luke had that conversation where luke apologized and Tried to get some kind of redemption. I mean, don't you think that that was we could really dramatically impactful Okay, so they talk but then they also fight. I mean, that's what literally happens Yeah, but like again luke is not as strong as these new characters luke and snook have to rely on mind tricks Exactly. Maybe he does. Maybe he tricks kylo. He he has like a force sort of clone that kylo attacks and Force for like a let me back up for it. Let me ask you guys a question Uh, what actually are your problems with the ending?  Tell me what your problem is. You mean the death of luke skywalker Is that yes? Yes.  He doesn't die as luke skywalker. He never resumes. He doesn't die as luke As an old bitter man. How is he old and bitter? He apologizes to kylo. He shows compassion What is the apology when he when he? Literally says i'm sorry The wrong Everything is just just disappears. There's no there's no Like hey man I think you're going down the wrong path. I think there's still good in you There's no there's no obi-wan to darth vader being like, you know, strike me down I'll become more powerful than you could possibly imagine He kind of said that he said i'll see you around and he did say if you strike me down I'll always haunt you like your father Well, he basically just tells them.   That's one way to look at it Definitely and and that's why it's so cool because you could look at it as he's taunting him And making fun of him or you could look at it as he's apologizing and trying to I've said this in my videos sound like i'm quoting myself I'm actually going to back you up here. A lot of people are saying he doesn't apologize. Luke does say i'm sorry. I failed you Yeah, he literally says i'm sorry. I failed you and that's why the scene has had to happen because If luke fought kylo. Yes, it would have been cool But it wouldn't have made sense in the story luke's whole reason for being on that island was because he held This saber over kylo something he feels awful about he created this tyrant this Hitler of the universe I mean, it wouldn't be galaxy. Uh, I don't think that's what he's and i'm pretty sure luke's side Snoke is the one who created him. He says snoke's gone to his heart Sure, but kylo blames luke. I think he's apologized for uh, yeah, go ahead Well, he blames luke and and the only thing luke could have done was apologize if luke fought kylo We just wouldn't have made sense. Well, i'm gonna go. It would have made perfect sense.  Well, like we suggested he wouldn't kill him. He would stop him Yeah, but we've already seen that with rey. It's like it's a reaper. There's literally a precedent for it Why you just suggested that luke wouldn't kill him. So what we just said had to be in character, right? He wouldn't know i'm saying he would either he would kill him or kylo would kill him And neither one of those would be good. Where would it go from there? What would be the third? Clarify you think that luke would execute kylo If they fought wouldn't you want to see that would if people this is part of why people think that luke has been damaged That's something we would never expect luke to do. Yeah, that's not.  Look, I think the only thing that made sense I think the only thing that made it right.  I'm sorry like if luke If luke was over in like a library researching badass fighting techniques That's not good enough to to like let han die that that does doesn't make sense The only thing that you can do is make him this this depressed hermit who who's rejecting everything It's like not at all not at all all right So what would what would you have rather had them studying the force? He was out there studying the force building a secret Jedi temple on the island letting han die He wasn't there. It wasn't a way that was happening. Yeah That's not relevant or maybe kylo, you know cut him down He's meditating gaining his strength back in the absolutely. He could have been injured by kylo He was I mean, how do you think he was able to do this this force projection that That's why he didn't show up to save han because he was these wounded or whatever emotionally wounded Who knows I mean the the the move that luke did do, you know the fighting move It could have been that you were searching for a way to defeat snook luke was trying to he's the ultimate Like original sith or something and luke didn't but see that but again that wasn't necessary because kylo kills Your question was what else can you do? That's a post hoc rationalization for why he didn't do something. All right. Okay. Sure. Yeah So you said there were no other options. We came up with like four or five right there But they don't make that much sense though. It makes a lot of sense luke Okay, snook did not need to get killed by luke. Yes. I was going to the theater expecting them to do all I was right with you guys. I thought this film. No, I didn't think I didn't care if luke Okay, fine, whatever people did a lot of people did I've read some of them did yeah people I think people more concerned with Having an explanation. That's all I think it's no cabin explanation Yeah, just have a snow explanation So you guys don't like that snook had no backstory What is to like about that?  We don't know anything and now at this point it really doesn't matter because in the last jedi It's not about that the first scene we see with him.  He's shaping kylo. No the problem still exists. It's like they've moved on Down the road, you know, we need to know something about snook. We know nothing yet to clarify a dude who's there At least it's the emperor. We knew like, okay.  I was about to say I've been corny if we're assuming Even if it's corny at least he had at least he serves a purpose in the story If in this conversation we assume the force awakens is in stone and we can't change it then yes We're currently dealing with an emperor clone. So what can we do? That's what they wrote him as so what can we if you're saying from the ground up? No, I wouldn't have had an emperor clone But if we're dealing with the force awakens as our law, we have to then I go Okay, so the first thing I've got to do because jj fucked up is explain how six became seven And the one of the biggest things to do is figure out snook Where was snoke when palpatine was in power? Where was snoke and how did he can convert kylo? How did snoke tear apart the skywalker and solo families? How did snoke gather so much power and men? Snoke is the key to all of this Yeah, but he doesn't have to be though No, I'm not saying I wanted I read the fan theories where he was the key and you know Everyone was like you gotta pay attention to snoke because the movies tell us he is Kylo's the key now. It really is all because that's after the fact This is after the fact after it's all before I mean maybe snoke only rose to power because he found kylo and was using him You know, maybe where do you even draw that inference? I don't I'm just saying it's possible. You're just making it up We have nothing to go by because of these characters. That's not what you have to do.  I don't know anything about fan theories This is just us You don't know anything about fan theories.  I don't know the researching fan fan theories is like what research is that relevant to It's totally necessary. You have to know what people are saying about the film if you want to like But it's not real. We don't know if it's real or not All we have to go that set in stone is the movies. I don't care what the fan theory Then why did you bring up that I have to research fan theories if you agree with what I just said Did you hear what we were saying before like are you forgetting the sentence that came before I said You seem to be doing this a lot like I'll say something and you asked me why I'm saying it But it's like dude. Are you are you following the conversation? Honestly? I was wondering why I love you follow because you're giving me mixed signals here Because dude we're talking about And people wanted to know something about him.  I'm going to try and explain both of your positions of why they're clashing rags is saying Snoke needs to be explained so that we have continuity and you're saying you've got all these fan theories that try to do it what we're trying to do now, but it's like we're We're talking about it to get to a point where the film's actually just follow We don't care like the idea is like Snoke is mace window. It's like I don't care Snoke is palpatine's brother. I don't care what I need is specific information of how he made this mechanically happen Why this happened? I don't how he rose to power then is what you want to know Just how he will be in this position I don't know the well because like he might have been in power this whole time As long as you know something. Yeah Honestly, you know, you're not wrong. But again, this was a thing I brought up when the force awakens came out. It was like this Something that has always been a flaw and and at this point especially now that he's fucking dead And that he made kylo even more of who he is because he did that forray and then she kind of turned him down It it was all just leading up to this great moment where now kylo is this powerful leader of the of the first order And that's what Snoke's purpose was What it leads to But uh, if Snoke is alive that that could be fun I mean when that that shot where he had his tongue hanging out when I first saw that I thought that was An interesting thing to do Well, it was almost like maybe he's still alive because his eyes were open And you know, his body slumped over on its own Um, yeah, there's a few things that they could undo like if they wanted to make the only thing I know about Snoke isn't that what doesn't leia say like oh, he turned kylo. Was it leia who said that? Yes It was leia and han weren't talking to each other yet. Well, that's a luke who said it as well in tlj It's interesting. What does that mean? What does it mean exactly? How did he tell those families of kylo doing before then? That's true during the original trilogy. What is his has been missing? You're right. I mean in the Why do I got to wait till the third movie to figure out My villain's motivation in a way it's it's cool because you know me into this at all I think I hear I have no idea what I love. I have no idea and I don't care The upside to it is that we're learning this really interesting backstory through flashbacks Which hasn't been done before and I think it's being done pretty damn well When in fact two of my favorite characters of all time are dead and I have no idea why or for what purpose Dude, come on luke luke sent a great message in this book Because he's running away from your problems. He had to teach that you need to You put love over everything. He did exactly what he did for his father. He chose not to fight him This is a war movie. You can't put love over anything. That's a theme. Yes, but it's a star wars movie It's a space fantasy and it's about love. It's it's about family and relationships Okay, it's about love. I got it. It's about love outside of the theme Why did kylo run need luke skalker today?  No, no, no, no, that's not the question you asked. That's not the question. He asked Okay, what did he ask? I'm sorry.  I think there's more to it than that, right? There's a lot of reasons.  He he wants to be the most powerful jedi. He's got a snuff luke out Oh, yeah, we'll take these one at a time. When did he say he wants to be the most powerful jedi? What what element of the script supports what you just said? Why wouldn't he want that? Can you reference just a scene or a line to support what you just said?  He is he clearly blames him I mean, you could tell from that showdown that they had the way he was looking at luke He was like a like a snarling dog. I mean the guy just had so much honest animosity towards luke I I don't think he was just on snokes orders.  Well, maybe So the story is over. So kylo got what he wants luke's cowher's dead and we don't need a third movie, right? No, no, see now ray and kylo have to go at it because now kylo's gonna be really pissed at ray for turning him down He told luke. I will destroy her and everyone and now he's going other hopefully hunt me down Yeah, we're asking for the reason for that statement not the state.  It's like when luke did what he did He was seeing the dark side future of kylo and ray is trying to do the opposite of that But it's too late for him and that's why it's so tragic because in the force awakens everybody was aware that kylo Was like a pussy and wasn't you know fully dark And you know, again, I think that's why he wore the mask tragedy The tragedy is that kylo could have been good He's the son of leia and haan But he maybe he almost was but if luke didn't do what he did he would have been okay Or was luke seeing a distorted vision? Was luke getting a dark side like trip and that wasn't even the correct future It's such a mind fuck. Man. I wish to make a comparison, right? All right at the at the end of uh empire. I know what's going on Okay, the the empire wants to kill the rebels Darth vader wants to convert luke scow a pretty evil, right? Right I know everything that's going on and i'm ready for a third movie The first order is now under kylo. I don't know why that matters or what he wants with them Luke Skywalker's dead. I don't know what that accomplishes kylo wants ray kylo is going to burn it all down for a girl That's how fang crazy He just wants everything gone. Why did he take the first order then? Why didn't he tell them all to pull out their guns and shoot themselves in the air?  I'm going to take control of this and now he's gonna know he said he wanted to leave it all behind He didn't want to rule whatever What you think is contradicted by something in the film and I was gonna say you can't I understand the need to say whatever But it's like but this is your point isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, this is this is literally you get what I'm trying to say though He wanted ray and him to join forces. That's that's what I'm trying to say He wanted him. Can you see how me as a yeah Can you see how me as a person who wanted to be invested in the star worst thing?  This is the exact opposite of that.  Please Oh boy, what do you think return of the jedi did when we when we saw them again? They were so much more Good at what they do We couldn't have had a character grow. Okay. Well not haunt, but like luke definitely evolved between those movies and an empire They would get a little bit of a training for empire Confidence is would be the primary So you're saying you don't want dude. I'm excited to see fin and rey and po after a year I can't wait to see what they're gonna be like.  Absolutely I think they're gonna need one. I don't think they can do the film without a timeskiff at this point Yeah, they're gonna have to basically require one. It's gonna be free. It's I hear what you're saying though it is kind of And it's all different now like the stakes are different the motivations are different Like you said when we left off an empire, there was this clear cut conflict now It's it's about rey and kylo and it should be I mean By return of the because that's how the original was too and the prequels. It's all it's all about this have to be like the original Okay, so do you not honestly? I'm not trying to like piss you off by saying this but like are you aware that like The main plot line of the prequels and the original trilogy is the the family drama or the relationship Why does that even matter? Because that's dramatic. Why does that why does that have why do we have to redo old things? Why does that have to not redoing it? It's very different If anything, it's the polar opposite in the original trilogy The whole more the whole theme was that you have to love your family unconditionally and and Redeem them and this one. I think it's going to be the opposite. I think it's if someone's not your family Hate your family. No, you just let them go. It's okay to stab your family The moral of the movie. I'm talking about rey rey asked rey asked to let kylo go. He's the abusive boyfriend He why didn't she just leave? She did she closed the door on him at the end of the movie.  She's just leaving Kylo's gonna hunt her down.  Because he doesn't like her. He's a whiny baby. Well, this is this is kind of The moral of the story is that's kind of a weak really The I think he's a phenomenal I want to be clear The intriguing conflict at the center of the movie is kylo ren is a bitch is what you're telling me That is the hook. No, come on. Why should I be invested in this character?  Isn't that great? That's not why I said you should be invested in him.  We we don't want to a villain That's just you know, we don't want a villain. That's just pure evil. We've seen that really evil though Now he is yeah, but he but I'm glad that he started out kind of conflicted Did you say we we haven't seen like a non pure evil character? I'm just saying it's been done so much in all types of movies.   You have to have someone that's confused and kylo is such a confused menace He's always going to be a menace.   He does whatever the current writer wants him to do Yeah I love I love going to the toy store and I see these kylo ren figures and like what kid is buying this being like All right, let's play star wars. You have to be kylo ren. I don't want to be kylo ren.  It's like depends on what scene you're gunning for is how he feels You know what? I feel really bad.  I heard JJ is planning on bringing the mask back Mask that was the only thing I liked What do you mean? That's the only thing I like. What are you seven? That's the only thing I like about kylo ren. He's got a cool mask and a cool mask It's child. It's like you're like going with the iconic imagery. You don't even care about his personality It doesn't have anything to it. Oh my god. Star Wars is childish It's not that we don't care about the characters that there's no there's no meaning or substance. It's all wishy washy All right, I'm not gonna argue if see here's my position if you have a problem with force awakens and last shed eye That's a whole different argument, but if you're trying to tell me that Okay, fine, but if you're trying to sit there and be like force awakens is amazing last shed.  It's like backwards Force awakens has good costume design. Let's put it that way. That's true.    I felt more for leia reacting to han's death than I did in anything in the tlj It was a good moment Let me ask you guys this Remember when they cut that sink on the last Jedi for luke. That was a smart one Wait, you mean when he was crying you didn't like that? No, they cut it from the film. He cut the yeah No, but did were you serious that that was smarter or no, I can't It was sarcasm that they cut that from the film. That was ridiculous Right, what do you think? Do you think it should have been in the there's a delete? Wait, there's a blue crying 100 percent. How have you not seen this?  Oh, yeah. No, I agree with you But this scene I'm I'm just put it in our well, I'll PM it to uh, I'll put it in both The crying was so quick and you know another really quick moment that they should have left in It was so brief. I mean literally 10 seconds where you see luke Speaking the caretakers language to them.  Well, yeah But we we did get 11 minutes of kanto bites. So um Vito if you just check that out Wacky casino. Yeah. Uh, no, I did look at it.  No, it's good. I just like there's a there's a lot of people who will defend the last Jedi to the death And they'll say like the the argument I've seen is we don't need this. We know he's sad about han Oh, no, I I think they definitely should have left that in the film I also really liked the deleted scene where Finn sees the hologram of rey and him. I you can make fun of me I know it's corny, but I love that. I thought it was really really good. Well, I'm just curious Do you think it's insane that they cut this luke scene because I do I think it's uh, I would have I don't not really Uh, if you if you think about it, there are people out there that probably thought it would have been corny and unnecessary We see a lot of I think ryan johnson actually said this I hate to like take the words out of his mouth, but there are a lot of shots of luke's Like face with his mouth open in the film. I mean it kind of Fine cut one of the other ones Take place like right after he finds out about han solow. I'm not sure how it was actually It was right before I don't know where you I don't know where you drop this in exactly I think if you actually watch it it shows what's after it and yeah, it's weird. I think it cuts to like leah In that room In front of you know when she's sitting there at the table like because rey's not in the room with him at this point Right sense what's going on by himself But like I think it cut to leah at sitting at the table with like her hand covering her mouth She was like thinking about how this was going, you know like legit when I first saw the movie The first thing that slapped me right out of it was when she says She explains what happened to to han well, he says, um where's han and it cuts away That to me was the most bizarre choice for filmmaking in history to have luke find out that han is dead offscreen I hear you but at the same time it's like People would have probably you're right Uh, I kind of thought that too. I kind of wanted to see rey say that But it's also really good when they cut back And you're just seeing luke sitting there on the steps looking demented like he obviously just heard the news And that is pretty effective so Yeah, you know, I don't think it was effective. Some people don't even string together that that's what's happening A lot of people are just like because remember what he talks about acting like before anyway, and he says She makes her argument about the first order, then he's just like what do you expect me to do it?  This is just him Because no one's there. That's the important thing. No one's looking at him. So he gets to be raw true Yeah, no, I I I agree. Yeah with the with the han thing I don't know. I uh, I think it's fine, but um, you know, it's it's all just part of that Thing where we all really wanted to see these characters together or at least talking about each other Yeah, at least but the fact that they never got to be in the same room is also really I hate to use his word again, but it's just fucking effective Like it really makes you appreciate the old movies because now those are really special because we get to see those characters together They're they're different. It's like these movies are not even trying to be better than those They're trying to be different and do their own thing. So it's like they're respecting those The movies are bad because they make the old movies more treasure that didn't say Yeah, I don't know man. I'm just saying It's dark the fact that you realize what you're missing out on Well, I mean, but but that's that makes you really appreciate the old films. It's like, yeah the events that happen Why would you want to appreciate the old films?  It should be a lot harder for these characters Because it's episode eight things. It's supposed to be like level eight in a video game. Everything needs to get harder 10 wait, so episode 10 is going to be darker than episode nine I'm not saying it's gonna be darker. It should be harder for the heroes to win. Therefore, you gotta kill off some people Dark hard same thing But why yeah, why does that mean that's conflict is the end of return of the king Right is that darker than the middle of the two towers? You mean the part where Frodo's getting his finger bitten off? No, the end of the return of the king. It's the resolution It's happy. I mean, no, no, but but it's further down the road. It should be darker That's what dude. Come on. It's a strange like I'm applying your logic. Yeah, he's just trying to No, yes, I am let's let's let's roll it back. Why does episode eight need to be dark slash hard The for the characters Because why else would we be watching what how else is it going to be like? What's the point if if the stakes aren't heightened and you can only do that by making these Are there are there stakes in a new hope thrown out in the space? Yeah, there's stakes in a new hall. Are there stakes in the false awakens? You know, I actually thought the stakes were kind of low in that film Well, what I'm suggesting is the the stakes would still exist Even if you're not going dark and hot I'm actually I would advocate in a trilogy that you Bring the heroes down in in the second of the three films However, I thought that you maybe would have been a proponent of being like well, we did that before So why don't we try something else? Well, they're new characters now I mean, not only do we have actual new characters, but the old ones have grown up so much They're practically different people because they've learned so much. I mean, you know, Leia has this power now to fly or whatever pull herself Is that your example of all the characters learning? No, I'm just saying it's like why now? Oh, okay. I guess they did change and meaning Luke changed. Obviously we've except we've He can probably fly too, right?  Yeah, but all this fundamental character shift I'm goofing on you with no justification Wait, say that again. I'm sorry. Oh this fund like for Luke, especially this fundamental Complete total character shift into a new person is done all off-screen with extremely little just I don't think it was a complete fundamental shift into a new person at all He just had a downer moment. He was in a rut. He made a mistake And isn't it great that we didn't get to see why that happened Well, you mean why luke held the saber over kylo? I'm talking about the time between then and the end of episode six.  So why not have just made a trilogy in that time? I don't know. That's a good question. They probably thought it would have been more effective to just cut right to the future Disagree I think they decided to try and remake a new hope and decided the best time to do it would be 30 years later when you can just Hey, if you want to if you want to shift gears and to dump it on force awakens. We I'm down Well, that's that's a whole other topic. This is the thing The one thing I give the last Jedi is that if I was told to write and direct the sequel to force awakens The first thing I'd want to say is like by the way jj. Fuck you for putting me in this position But that does not mean you can't make a well written Explanatory film the first thing I'd be thinking about is like guys We've got to fix this we've got to explain all the things that jj skipped over to have his beautiful payoffs Like we I think they tried that with the flashback. I mean, you know, we saw that Moment where luke did this I just I was In my head, I was thinking like right 30 minute flashback loads of exposition He was just like the three second flashback that we saw three times. That'll do it So you wanted to see okay, so you wanted to see a longer flashback then I am more substantive flashback start Well, I mean a lot of people probably wouldn't have been down with that You know, it's not all you need to do is set up framing devices So for one we have kylo being taught by snook the final lessons of being a sith and while they're doing it They can recant some history some then we go with ray and luke talking about how all this came to happen That's the perfect setup like luke.  I think there is still room to do that And it would and it would be pretty cool if they did that in the third movie because this movie was about the history between kylo and luke Well, okay.  I don't know what you defined that meaning Dude, come on. Hey, hey It has the rain man That war Very important Here's why I love kanto bite. All right, by the way, when I first saw the movie I was in heaven during that scene. Here's why I love kanto, but no, no, no, no, no words Of a dying. Here's why I love kanto bite. Go go go for it. Go for it. Uh, it's it's a pure adventure I mean, it's it's the pure adventure part of the film where you're just Dropped into this star wars casino, which is totally new for the films Dude, it's just fun man, like That was a real question. Is it first of all? It's it has a purpose the whole point is that the question is it better because it's new is being new I never said it was better than anything. I'm just saying it was really One of the qualities that you assigned to the scene was that it was new It is it's a casino. All right, so because it's new Better, I mean, I'm just saying it's we haven't seen this So right so it's it's a new setting We've got new creatures so and we have this plot where these people are you're just skipping right over Why does that make it better? I'm explaining to you have this plot I gotta hear these people these people are like weapons dealers It's showing you this other side of the war that's going on that I can't believe some people had a problem with I thought that was really interesting and Then you have this this accident where they bump into this kid who just happens to have the force He at the end of the movie and it's like yes It seemed like they were just fucking up and running around But look they had good intentions and it led to good things and fin needed to learn that lesson Fin needed to lead to Dude the kid the kid he had the force no matter what Right, but he has the ring now.  Yeah, the children, you know The children they left the children they freed the space horse Why don't save the children? I know you don't know nobody knows it's a massive a scene.  I mean How old was the horse? Maybe he grew up in that stable and just maybe he grew up in that stable. Leave him here to his slavery He looked like he was having gone as they should have just left anakin on tatooine because he was born there Can I present? He was to a uh an argument to to li I want to see how he reacts to this so Uh the the way I think we're supposed to interpret it is that the kid is ecstatic to see that the rebels not only Certainly exist because it's because of that ring But it's uh What are you doing? While I go pee Okay, so uh, I get that right and the kid is like happy It's like hey the the the people are here and he wants to support them because obviously he's in a in a rough spot um Yeah The and you can you can talk about any source of the issue for this be it force awakens or tlj But my assumption here was okay So the fighting between the first order and the Resistance has only really been going on for a day because the republic was destroyed a day prior to that who were in power and were blissfully like vaguely unaware of the first orders at least power so canto bite uh Is flourishing hardcore under the republic So why would this kid want the good guys quote unquote to even be in power when his entire life He's been that way thanks to them if anything when she showed that ring I would expect him to be like you fuck her hate them Well, I mean he you know, it's possible that since he is very young. He probably Didn't think that deep but no, you're not wrong. I just think that you know, this kid He's a jedi. I mean he he should be part of the fight and no, he's not a jedi. He can use the force No, no, no, you're talking about the character of luke. That's one of the very important distinctions that luke makes This is your character. You love so much. That's actually a part of film. Yeah Yeah, the force does not belong to the jedi the forces right that's true. Okay. Yeah, so you're right. Yeah He doesn't have to be a jedi. He's just kidding. That's a force But he's meant to be in this fight. I mean he wore that ring and he looked up at that ship He wants to fight on the resistance side. He's probably wanted to for a while He has this luke skywalker action figure that he just made and it but it makes it obviously into it Well, you know, no, it doesn't make any sense that he would want to support the government That's responsible for his condition Or you'd be happy to see them. I don't understand what he thinks that they do One could say that the resistance is only fighting because the first order isn't power I mean, don't they already empower yesterday. Can this kid even know about this? Maybe he's working off of the legends from the original trilogy Maybe he heard about the return of the jedi and he's Playing with those toys and now this new thing just inspired him. I don't know I'm gonna actually all side with leave for for one time. I'd say that kid Has heard a bunch of story book adventures of the guy walker. That's all he knows.  It's like these are things that yeah making sense does matter in films I feel like what you're saying is totally valid But I think you could do this play any film you could play even colonial times. You're not like it doesn't matter Take any film that like you love I guarantee really doesn't matter say things like this about forest people in america Saying is that they're flaws in other films too. That doesn't alleviate the flaws in this one. No, I'm just saying they're not even Flaw it's like it's not a big deal. It's just this thing that like I guess you could Yeah, it just no it just doesn't matter just because you can do it in another film. That doesn't mean anything That's not relevant. I'm saying they could do it in films that you like and you probably don't have we would accept it as a flaw as well Is different than a flaw in the film. That's good That's completely the reason this matters is because that kid saves them in that movie So you're saying it's a flaw in the film that the kid Is a fan of the good guys and not just not it doesn't follow The kid would not recognize them and he would certainly not like them and yet he's the reason they escape In two ways.  That's the point we're trying to make just because there's other How does anybody in that you know what I'm suggesting is that if I grew up in his position? I might look at the first order as the saviors Yeah, I mean Well, the first order can't argue with it. I just don't either of them is ending slavery Yeah, the difference is that we're just going by what's in the film. We're not trying to make stuff up I don't even think that kid is going to be an episode nine by the way I don't think so. He's probably going to be in ryan johnson's solo trilogy Or or not even but that would be interesting But yeah, I think he really was just a symbol of the fact that luke Since left me here in slavery. What what luke did actually did reach people's ears. I mean it actually had Yeah, that honestly bothers me more. I'd like to I'd like to approach that that is watch that on youtube It's like a live That's a good question. I I I don't argue with that either. I mean, yeah It's right to him with this action figure made Lee genuine question. Lee. How would you describe to somebody what happened on crate? Like in definitive terms not like flowery language literally just like mechanically I truly Truly was just over the moon at that's at that whole crate sequence and still ask What do you want to know? I mean what what I'm suggesting is if if if the if the Rebels or the resistance sorry the ones who spread the story of luke all they saw was him getting pelted by 8080s and he didn't die They didn't see anything else remember they were heading to the ship when he was fighting kylo Or doing something with kylo so they didn't see any of that But they don't need to know that he did this crazy thing They just know that he sit he let the rebels escape he came Distracted the first order and the rebels were allowed to survive. I mean that that could be all that they know And that's enough to be inspiring. Um, yeah, so the if that's the story that alone, right? I'm not going to say that I can't inspire anybody the guy do that.  When they're all on the land was it a time skip because the kid is the exact same age as when we saw him That is As the millennium falcon is taking off raise furiously penning fan fiction And look, I know this is not in the film I'm just saying it's possible people were talking about it nearby the kid over her Maybe some guards or what about what about right tuxedo wearing fish people were like, oh, fuck you hear about the Let's say the story gets out. All right, and it makes sense that it gets out What about the first order being like by the way, he wasn't actually there It was just like a weird projection thing that story could ruin the the legend But maybe kylo is keeping that under wraps because that made kylo looks so bad Can you imagine the humiliation keep it under wraps at that point?   Yeah, I'm saying he could sell it However, he wants my suggestion is that it's it's a very strange story to have kicked off compared And this is the important bit The just 30 years ago when one man killed the two People at the top of the chain in the empire and was instrumental in its destruction and the freedom of the galaxy How is that story not everywhere? Well, maybe that is the story and Out of the fight for 30 years this this kid thought that all right Maybe he died and then the the news that he reappeared Was enough.   So you could actually argue kylo killed him Yeah, right, right.  Oh, he let him So he sacrificed and still it's gonna get friends. Yeah escape. I mean that might be a good story I suppose it seems so hard to clarify exactly how the story spread and what the story would be I guess is the point here Yeah, it's very Right, but then again, this is the story. This is the story of the age I mean, this is luke skywalker saving what's left of the rebels that story's gonna travel somehow That's the biggest thing nobody cares about You know because they didn't come The kid knew that rose was out there and she was there or he he met rose He just went over why that kid shouldn't even be happy about that. They left him He should hate them. He should despise them. Yeah, I mean I I've really I have no rebuttal to that honestly Yeah, it's I would say it's terrible To roll back like this was just talking about cat to bite and it's it's such a mess But then like the main point when people usually make is that it It's self the opposite of self-fulfills like it's self-cancel. It was supposed to be a mess It was supposed to be this big mess. That's why it was good. That's why I loved it We're used on the word mess differently. I think There should be a scene in this movie that goes nowhere and it's just an aimless adventure and Yes, yes Present the argument go for it Dude, it's an adventure everything in star wars. It has been built up to be this Oh man, this has to happen and that character has to do this There should be there should be a moment where it's just a break from all the Deep plot twist and it's just this star wars escapism.   We're helping this kid. They were just being good Yeah, okay being good. Wait, so it is There's like six arguments for this that we're gonna have to go through that Really just to see what your take is so Destroying kanto bite with those those creatures fin and rose they you you would agree they considered that a moral good and a general fun Yes, that's what they had thought that they were doing. Do you do you agree with they take on that?  That's after This is at the time while they're doing it as they're getting ready to do it and as they're executing Let's ignore dj telling us that uh, people are morally good. They will just ignore that because that that should have been self-evident for them Yeah, but If you think that yeah, they're they're wrecking these rich assholes, you know, nice town So the concept of insurance, right? The idea that The good guys who are super well the guys who are super rich, uh, this isn't gonna bother them a favor then there you go Okay, so they get to take their aggression out and they're doing them a favor. It's a win-win No, no, that's not how any of the that's not how any of this mess. So two We do you think let's just assume there is an insurance for whatever reason? Who do you think's cleaning that mess up? That kid the kid with his broom the bro. It's It is so embarrassing to think that they did all the amount of damage They've dealt to that small child after all he did was help them Who knows how much whipping he's gonna get for all of this double whipping. They helped him, too, though I mean, they did they They gave him that ring man, it was oh, wow He gets cold with that ring that kid is getting executed Right. Yeah, they really just left him with like this big risk I here you go. I love the point I think it was him over here who's like, why is the richest casino place having six How useful is a six-year-old slave kid when you could get a robot that probably cleans the casino? Yeah, that's another one.  Well, you have to have that creepy Child slavery. No, you didn't have to have that at all. Why not? Why not? No, no, no, no, why not is not a reason why they had to do it It's cool. These are completely different things. They didn't have to do it. They decided to write that in of their own volition Destiny did not lead them to writing those words.  He was hilarious.  And then they're like, this is why it's worth it And they let the the animals go. So if we ignore all the stuff that I just said Releasing captured racetrack animals. Do you know why that's not a thing people should do? Well, it went it went back to its family, didn't it? I think they showed It's just Didn't go to like a pack of other fathers. I was pretty dark scene, but I could have sworn it like I think there's like a chain or another one come out of the forest or no. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, something like that, right? I It's a giant rich people planet a big net Well, yeah point point is they will be recaptured because that's how they get these things in the first place two We for depending on how long this thing was in captivity It can't even survive outside of captivity anymore because it wouldn't have any I do just know what to do Three the the flying things they're like right there as soon as they let it go I don't know what rose is thinking that it's like, yeah, there's no way they're getting captured again. It's a planet They can't fly away Maybe maybe guys in the chat I could have sworn and I know I should be sure about stuff like that But I could have sworn like when they freed it it was running over the hill to join like other ones Yeah, they're either way If that's true, then maybe they're gonna all be safe. Maybe if they're No, they'll I don't think it's definite. Look, it's based 99.8 percent. What I what I think people Yeah, what I think people who love the movie would say is you see Finn was like all happy about smashing the people we hate while while Ray Rose was like no, it's worth it now because we've saved what we love these innocent animals But you look at all the mechanics and it's like the message is nice But good god, you have fumbled its delivery and that would be the the problem I have I get the message just like I appreciate the message the failure is the best teacher I think that's a great message too But if I made a movie where I said that was my message and then it was just a black screen Like would that be a what you would consider a good movie? It's like we all it's like degrees in which you deliver this message, right? Do you have like a method Boy, it would have been better delivered. So I would have cut can to buy and re re redone the b-plot I would have made it so it was relevant first But if you were like, you know, we need it to say that you should protect what you love instead of attack We hate I'd be like, okay, we'll definitely do that But first we have to figure out what our b-plot is going to be But if you gave me that kind of creative freedom, I would want to nuke the a-plot as well I hate the slow chase.  It makes no sense Do we want to talk about that? How does it make no sense? All right, this will be easy. This is like one of the this is the one that we got Billy the fridge with There's a lot of dialogue that they spend explaining it. Well, they tried. In fact, I don't even think it was necessary I'll give it to you that they tried to explain it, but they made it worse. Um So we've got the idea that the smaller the ship you are the faster you are, right? Right. So why can't the star destroyers cast into the raiders? Yeah, I mean Again, these are things that I'm not gonna I'm not gonna I'm gonna say the same thing I said for the other thing. It's just not that important like I get what you're saying very easily You could easily pick out things that They should be doing if they're really going that slow This is central to the plot of the film Like everything relies on everything happens and it revolves around this scene this chase. Okay. What's the what's the main beef? None of it makes any sense. It doesn't make sense that it even happens. So first of all the star destroyers should be able to catch up to the raiders Let's knock that one out. Secondly, they can Hyperdrive ahead of that. Well, they because the film said the ship is smaller. They fall faster It's dumb ass logic, but that's the film the star destroyer smaller than the raiders Um, whether or not they wait, hang on I'm pretty sure they might actually be because the raiders are supposed to be the largest capital ship that the The resistance of ever had If it's not if it is the star destroyer like the main one is like massive the supremacy or no, I'm not talking about that one just the star destroyers Oh It doesn't even matter because this film operates It tells us that all of these ships can only move at the exact same speed as one another Well, I was gonna say that if we go even possibly speed up, which doesn't make any sense Fundamental you remember the opening for a new hope, right? Where the big ship is chasing and catches the little ship right Well, that's curious how that works. Um, well, I would assume considering I'm not an astronaut or a nasa person It doesn't matter how heavy or big your ship is it's going to be all about the thrusters because you're in space Yeah, I mean you're right the a new hope Tantive four or whatever it's called rebel blockade. Yeah, I mean they got they got uh boarded But again, it's like it's possible that man. Maybe their technology Evolved because they started using the act bars Stuff and now they can go as fast as the first order. I mean Well, either way, right? So if we throw that out, let's just pretend that's not a problem And it all makes sense.  I don't know. Maybe they turn really slow I don't I mean it's they have all the time in the world Time time isn't an issue. They have all the time in the world to just turn around So maybe that would use all their fuel up. No, no, no, no, no, they're a huge that they can literally go ahead and then No, the fuel thing it doesn't hold up. This is an organization that can build planet sized planet destroyers Resources are not an issue and not to mention that uh, the idea would be if you know, they all port in like On the ratus for some reason I don't know why kylo and hux would have ordered every single one to port the exact same place Behind the ratus instead of surrounding it But let's just say that was an accident. They go oops I hit the controller. All you need to do now is go. Okay star destroyer 7b go Uh back by like one Hyperdrive unit and then go forward by 1.001 and you'll be just ahead of them. You can cut them off But but that's assuming they can do that They absolutely can they can they can land in the orbits of planets They they they hyperdrive a lot if you remember an empire the star destroyers In the movie. Yeah. Yes. So it's established that they can do this. So why don't they do it? I don't know. Maybe they Just tell me why all right. All right. They don't they don't feel like it. We'll ignore that one We'll put a pin in that one. I mean I'll admit that that that thing offers a lot of questions, but I don't think it's a flaw necessarily It's just something that wasn't Explained a shit ton even though I thought it was but apparently not enough Uh It just didn't bother me like it didn't bother me one. I am okay with it not bothering you but to say it's not a flaw I find that interesting. What do you mean by it's not a flaw? I just I I mean, it's not a flaw because it didn't bother everybody. No, no, no, that doesn't matter Stop stop. I also don't think it's the a story. If anything, it's like the sea. No, no, we're going out of tangent We're going out to clarify I'm just explaining why I don't think it's important. No, that's not relevant It's not relevant whether you think it's important or not. You said that it's not a flaw because not everybody Is bothered by it. Is that how you define a flaw? No, I'm just saying it's not glaringly bad. It's not like a massive plot hole where So this makes no sense. This couldn't have happened. They had to have been caught. It's like now I don't I don't see it that way at all What can you just give me a what you consider a massive plot hole like in another film even if you want to just find out Geez, uh I don't know. That's a good question. I mean, let's see. What was the last bad movie I just watched Well, can we admit that plot holes exist in films? They exist. Absolutely Would you consider what we've been talking about a plot hole in a minor degree at least? Minor maybe nano degree I I I will say this it's probably not the strongest plot thread of the film, but I don't think that's because it's flawed I just don't think it has the stakes as Like the luke and ray storyline or the kylo and ray storyline and that's okay. I mean, I like it has far more stakes than both of them All right. Well, I saw it as this kind of break from that and it's what remains of the good guys outside of that That's the entire resistance right there Yeah, I mean, you know, it's just I don't remember what I was saying, but okay We'll put a pin in that one as well So when they go back to it when they connect to the radis with all the star destroyers They release four tie fighters Now before I make my point about that between the four of them They destroy the bridge on the radis and the radis is hangar and that's a lot of damage for four Tie fighters. Why did they send only four instead of a swarm? I'm starting to see a pattern with your guys as criticisms, but Why did they only send four tie fighters because kylo was a part of that squad?  So when kylo comes back.  Leia was they were still clearly alive in front of them were they Didn't didn't they didn't hucks have a line there where he was like Like right before they showed leia waking up and flying away. They had hucks and he Fuck, what did he say? He was like, well, we'll keep at a safe distance, but keep firing I can't remember the exact dialogue. I know. Yeah, it's some line. I feel like they did offer some kind of maybe it wasn't that strong Doesn't hucks get mad. He's like, why can't we catch up to them? Yeah, even though the tie fighters could catch up The tie fighters can we can establish a tie fighters can so why don't they just send tie fighters to blow up the radis? They have any left. I don't know They have fleets of them Maybe they were down to their last fleet at the end of the supremacy has like hundreds of thousands of personnel on it Yeah, but it got destroyed No, no, not yet Not yet. It hasn't Yeah, I mean they have hundreds of thousands of personnel. It's possible. It really is possible that kylo was just like no Okay, look The only explanation I have is that they're like, why waste the resources? You know, you could say that Why send the full tie fighters to begin with? Why waste the resources on destroying our only enemy? It's possible that it's probably just being so cocky.  I I'm Totally comprehending what you're saying. It's not perfect. You don't consider that important, right?  What was that actor's name the his like first in command I can't remember the fat guy White guy. Yeah, the british guy, um That scene. Yeah, maybe the explanation could have been a little more Pleasing would you would you agree that like ryan johnson cared to put lines in to try and explain it? Therefore we should probably consider how well it's explained as in that's clearly i'm not saying that means it's good I'm just saying at least they know i'm suggesting that considers it important to his film He's like this needs to be explained i'm putting lines in that explain it Absolutely. He's obviously aware that someone is going to like you guys, you know be really scrutinizing the realism and you know, if everything adds up scientifically and mathematically I I don't think we've gone much further than literal just easy logic, right? We've just been like this x is y but else x is also x But again, it's like you could You could make up shit that's not in the movie and I think we're we're all kind of guilty of that Right now like no We're all just going by what's in the film Here's here's the problem for me. How is this a good enough explanation? Well We're using just what's in the film and we're pointing that out that it doesn't make any sense with the film's own Logical rules that it has set the film does not follow its own rules Yeah, it's not about relating it to our worlds. It's about what they tell us about their world Yeah, it's it's it's debatable, but I I see where you guys come how that's been going I I get how movies like this Probably are filled with shit like this because these are scenarios that don't really happen I mean, even if they do it doesn't matter the technology isn't real It's like it doesn't matter.  So I'll turn off my brain and just Come up with explanations, you know that maybe make it make sense That's just lazy writing not even saying that but even if that was the case that would still be acceptable for some movies I'm not saying that's what you should be doing here. It would be like, yeah, the the writing kind of sucks But like Star Wars, it's like dude you have so much lore like so many people are invested in this universe I feel like it should be like an airtight ship where like there's not even a moment that I have to be like This doesn't make sense. Well, all you have to do is just follow the rules that you said Yeah, what about previous movies? I mean It doesn't matter. It doesn't literally disappear when Han was out running the Star Destroyer. I mean Why didn't they just yeah, what's the inconsistency? Why was he able to outrun them in this millennium Falcon? Sure, but it's this big Star Destroyer.  I mean Well, he was right next to them No, no, no, no, no, no because this is this is fair, right? What you should we should be applying the lens to every Star Wars film So what happens when Han Solo is evading them?  It's being like, well, that's us So that's not when it was on the way. What about when it's traveling to the ship Couldn't have seen it then Well, the idea is that he's stuck so close to them that for temporarily They wouldn't be able to see him But then by the time they're waiting from to turn back up. They're like, where's he gone? So what you could say is it's pretty convenient that they didn't think to check the back of the Star Destroyer But I mean that seems like a pretty that to me is what Holdo's maneuver is done, right? It's a thing where we go.  That's fair. What I would like to sort of talk about then is So you've seen the disappearing knife right in the throne room Yeah, so does like does that bother you? Absolutely not. Okay.  It's okay every knife disappears I want to explain it mechanically why it would bother somebody.  He's gonna he's a pretty good fighter. So that's him Then we got luke.  He's he's better now than he's ever been He's super confident and he wants to defend not only the people that vader's threatening But also fight the chance of becoming The dark side and he's he's pretty skilled at this point too. Who's gonna win? This is gonna be interesting if luke's lightsaber disappeared the moment he went to strike vader and it just disappeared We'd be like whoa That's that's the lightsaber the floor is taken away from us in terms of we had all of our stakes We had all of the understanding of each team and now the film has just said no to that specific thing Luke no longer has a lightsaber. We need to do something that's getting in the way of so It's betraying the audience intelligence Luke's lightsaber and some henchmen's like little knife are very different. So let me know what happens when a dagger stabs you Let me relate it. So like I've made this that's the argument right in in that fiction So let's bring it over to the last Jedi ray Is we've got enough issues for how ray is is skilled and powerful like without What I would call proper exploitation. She's nailing it in this throne room fight Now she gets to the point where this guy tangles her where he can stab her in the back and she's finished But he doesn't because the knife disappears Yeah, it's a mistake. Yeah, she has the kind what I'm suggesting is what does it do to the stakes of the story? She is so powerful that she makes it happen What I'm suggesting is why it affects The the storyline not I'm not I think it's an error too I think it's a matter of them airbrushing it out when they Fucking failed to realize that she would be dead if they didn't do it That doesn't change the fact that it's massively critical to the stakes. She makes weapons disappear if they touch her You're I mean, well, you're treating it like it happened in the film Do you understand that that's what it's doing Like in the script it didn't say weapon disappears now. It doesn't matter. It happened Yeah, but it was a mistake. It wasn't yeah, we know that It's like the guy wearing blue jeans and gladiator. All right, you guys got a nail on it though You gotta be like, yeah, that was bad. Yeah. Yeah, it's a mistake I didn't even notice it until someone what I'm assuming the whole reason I brought this up is It bothering you and it being a mistake of two different things Yes, especially when it's that small that is such a small It saves her life. I was gonna say she literally survives because of it I should survive because kylo saved her at the last minute Because the knife disappears that was like yeah, but that didn't that wasn't okay Let me give you right. Uh, luke is wearing like literal converse in one scene You see him in a corner of the screen. You can see he's wearing that.  I mean, it's gone by the next scene That is what I would call minor because it has absolutely no effect on anything But it's a mistake now a weapon disappearing before it can kill ray is Incredibly serious to the night. I hear that it's a weapon. Yeah, I get that it's it would have made or break her life Yeah, you're right But again, it just it wasn't intended to be in the story. I think that's very true I don't think they would ever have wanted that to be in the story I mean, it's on it's on the same level as you know, people You gotta be like, all right People are also making sure that they never hit ray and like aim over her head Let's talk about another guy and it hits three people Here's another thing that oh, okay Random so a guy can see if you want to talk about ray That's that's a topic but what I was going to get into was You know, if you want to ask my opinion on shit that's like hated the leia flying in space thing I thought could have been better. I don't hate it. I don't think it was terrible, but what do you think doesn't work about it? So I actually think it should have been longer. I know that probably sounds the opposite of what you don't think I'll present the argument I think the moment turned people off because it was really quick and jarring.  It's it's a big moment I think it should have just been dragged out a little bit Maybe we see like one more shot of her flying towards the camera. That sounds pretty silly But really I think it just should have sunk in a little more Here's another thing you could have done at let me know what you think of this What if instead of flying or pulling herself? she You might hate this too, but Like a blue shield or something forms around her and she protects herself from like the space radiation That's even worse. Okay. Well, I'm sure maybe some people would agree with you But then some people probably like oh, I like that better It it's like you could improve that scene a hundred million ways But I love the fact that we got to see Leia first of all almost die Actually have her like actually have some stakes for her And then we get to see her do this great thing and it's not like she just Was perfect after that the book tells us that she got really sick from that the book doesn't matter All right fair enough, but I'm just saying it really I'm glad that they did something like that But yeah, I think it could have been maybe Paced out a little better So how did she learn how to do that? Oh, I don't know She just How did I'm not too bothered by that? What did the what did Jessica Chastain learn at the end of interstellar that led to this? Well, I'm just saying it's like I a lot of times I don't I don't care about But uh, I'm just saying there's a lot of times you could be like, how did they learn that? Well, that's not relevant. I don't care. I don't care about this. What about ism of other movies? I'm asking about this movie. It's been 30 years. Maybe she just freaking learned it. She hadn't no Okay, she had because they didn't because they didn't say I learned this Um, so they confirmed that she to compare it again a few like where they confirmed that she does The knife thing the director if we're unaware of Powers or abilities that the The person has it'll change the stakes arbitrarily in the biggest payoff moments. What you need to do It's standard storytelling you go What we'll let the audience know that this is possible for layers like oh We need to have an earlier scene where she does something that implies that she's actually got a decent understanding of the force as opposed to luke telling her you have the force We need more than that. Otherwise when we're told she is dead. We're like, oh god And it's like oh, no, she's alive because of the force remember and you're like um There was a very quick Let me ask how you feel about this. I'm I'm guaranteed. I guarantee you're gonna be like it wasn't enough but In the last in the beginning of the film, there was a quick moment where you see leah Sensing That page is about to die or something big is about to happen The camera kind of zooms in or it's her kind of having like that That was sensing death is something that a lot of the jet I do she did it in false awakens with her Yeah, and then right before right before she got blown out Obviously she had this moment with kylo where they were going back and forth with like the three frame fades just like in the old one So, I mean they did a little bit. Yeah, they didn't say oh, I learned how to fly but I don't know maybe she didn't learn maybe she just Learned it right there and then kind of like how ray figured out how to mind control the daniel craig storm Christ that was a mess too. Um Well, hey, but it's but it's keeping it in line where maybe you just learn force powers It keeps it keeps in line with the idea that force users can just spontaneously learn extremely difficult techniques But that doesn't that flies in the face of the OT Fair enough. She's a Skywalker. I mean, I wasn't bothered by her Flying honestly. I was like, you know what? She's a Skywalker. Maybe she just has that much latent force ability Yeah, I mean she has figured out You know for 30 years you're hanging out.  I just If it was me and we it was like, what is the quickest fix?  I need it to be ray, but we can't do that. She's not there But maybe before ray had left see this goes back to force awakens. It can't be in TLJ Unfortunately, maybe they're on a calm device or some shit, but she if if ray is like I can't get through to luke Like something's wrong The layer could be like talk about the time that we spent together talk about how he taught me Blah blah blah and how he could teach you or something in the last movie at the end She says, you know luke will teach you like he's taught me or something like that Yeah, yeah Have a nod to it like like ray is like did he teach you and she could like smile Totally fair would have been cool. Just something so we can go. Oh So what I wonder what layer can do.  Okay So you could have just had her get knocked out or anything else I always assumed that the purpose of it was to get hold of in into the the admiral chair because it would have been layer Yeah, but you could have had that you could have had her just get knocked out by the blast Absolutely. Maybe hold on there Hold on never would have destroyed that star destroyer if I'm not gonna make the argument that we need it to happen because we need another thing to happen By the way, that's the other thing about hold on not telling po the plan.  It's supposed to be the secret Thing that they're escaping. Well, it's not supposed to be blur remember what happens when he's told the actual plan He says this will work Well, he says this might actually work meaning that he would have been on board. So isn't that just a bad call from holdo? Yeah, I mean she made a mistake. Yeah.  I mean This is really not much more you can do to try to redeem yourself.  So You you got It's like she really kind of knew that he was dangerous impulsive like she said to him, which he is What twice already I was gonna say he's not What what what gives you the impression that he's a hot-haired dangerous pilot It's the fact that he just the fact that he turned that calm off with leah and disobeyed her and just went Okay, let me ask you this what from tfa supports it because my argument would be it's invented for tlj Nothing which is why I love what tlj did to post character because they gave him flaws in the force awakens He was so pitch perfect. He's barely in the movie was that he consistently makes the right call when necessary All you need to do to give him a floor perfect His okay, so his like core character trait is that he's an amazing pilot Right, so like all you need to do is have him put in a situation where there is no piloting and he can fuck that up What they did was try to make it so that his leadership in terms of piloting or Organizing a fleet was flawed which I think is essentially a contradiction Because he's been amazing, right? But but then again, it's it's the kind of contradiction that I honestly was really glad They did because that character just needed some dimension and force awakens.  He just ignored it Yeah, well, I mean they did blame him for getting the bombing. Yeah, which is he saved the entire fleet He saved the fleet by doing what he did. Yeah, he gets no appreciation for that. Yeah Yeah The character needed to be told about his flaws, which there were And I'm saying I agree, but the way in which they executed it similarly to what we were saying about the themes like they It's clunky. They have all these ideas I think I think one of the commonly said things by red lair media was that like it's all about how they executed it It wasn't it wasn't that they have bad ideas. It wasn't that all these things couldn't happen Visibly the idea that luke Has forsaken the jedi and become uh like sort of anti jedi like I'm like, yeah, I'll watch that story But you've got to really execute it well. You can't just Make it arbitrary, which is what I feel like they did with a lot of the elements to get there that one time I mean like what else do you think is is poorly handled but Sounds good on paper ray basically Falling for kylo. I think the him killing han should have had a hell of a lot more of an effect considering your reaction in tfa Well, she's so forgiving. She's willing to see the light in kylo It's like she's she's even better than luke luke was ready to turn on kyle It's the one thing that I actually really liked about ray's character was how much she she cared when they she brings up It's the one part that I say like daisy ridley's doing a good job is when she like struggles to say Why did you kill your father because of how much han meant to her which by the way? I think there's a problem there, but if we accept it that han solo was a father figure to her for whatever reason Uh, she gets over that really quickly in favor of um And that but that's ray's lesson that that was ray's mistake of the film is falling for kylo Trying to even just talking the kylo. Do you see the connection here all of these mistakes are just Happening that's the whole point of the film.  That's not the only way to learn In this film it was the message and it was pretty damn consistent across all the plot points I thought the whole conversation we've been having was how it's all inconsistent Oh, I think it's the opposite of the message itself.  Because by the end of the film when you see okay, so When he sees luke out on that battlefield and he says that line where he's you know quoting hall though We are the spark. He's distracting us. We have to save ourselves.  That's the moment where he really becomes a leader How does that what he's done in the past? It doesn't it strengthens his character It it makes him really likeable.  I certainly wouldn't do it. I would absolutely The the fact that the mutiny was it effective is another topic because that's I agree with you It was so dumb the way they do the mutiny. However The act of mutiny is not a mistake in this scenario. I absolutely would have been on his team Even though leia wasn't on board with it. We didn't know that he doesn't matter. We didn't know that Yeah, but lay was in the coma before holder was introduced When you watch the movie a second time and you're aware of Where it goes and what hall does intentions were and what leia's position was you start to see the characters don't know No, i'm just saying the first time you see the film you're along for the ride You're in the shoes of po you're pissed at hall dough. You're in the shoes of ray You're pissed at luke actions that she takes and the reasons why she attempts to justify them They don't make any sense. All right. Well, that's your opinion. They don't change on a first or a second viewing And like what could po have done exactly? What could po have done mooring morel What po what should po have done should you just sat there?  Everything from the moment he meets holder onwards. What should he have done? I don't know. I'd have to I'd have to think about each scene But my point is that the best thing you could have done from what we know is to just do nothing And we would have been fine But the fact is that all the information he has which is the information she's controlling She only allows the trickle of very small pieces of information all points to destruction Everything points to everyone dying So he has to do something because he doesn't want to die and he doesn't want everyone else to die And that's her fault Yeah, but it's like Again, it was really good that he didn't do anything and at the end his whole lesson was let's not do anything Yeah, but that's Finn wanted to go fight Finn was like let's go Wait say that again. I'm sorry that what you're doing is you're taking the results of something that they couldn't have possibly known beforehand And using that to rationalize the decision based off of what the outcome happened to be how so give me give me the example We what you just said about the mutiny He couldn't have possibly have known that things would have turned out a certain way based on the information that he had The rationalization can't be well if he would have just acted irrationally Things happen to work out. So that's justification and it's not I'm not even following. So the the premise of the argument was uh poed made mistakes We're arguing that he didn't make a single mistake in the movie Well, I don't know. All right, let's put it this way if the characters thought he did So I definitely agree with that. Yeah, if she thinks he made a mistake, then yes Absolutely. Her being Leia doesn't give her freedom from not making bad decisions You know what they did really cleverly putting her in a coma because if she had been on board with holdo's plan And not telling po po would have been like Leia. What are you doing?  I think he warrants being aggressive. He didn't respect her.  It's not his right. So what what is it captain? Captain don't get to know captain don't get to know the survival plan dude.  This isn't like what does that have to do with Anything factual like oh this captain knows that who knows first of all, there's no one left This is obviously like an emergency situation.  Admiral holdo is now the general In a way. She kind of got like demoted am I wrong?    Hey, don't worry. There's a plan.   You have to just have her go I think there's a spy. I gotta be quiet. Yeah, I think I think that we could Apply a large patch to this this wound if she had just said There's theories that there is a mole aboard But then the question is does that go again mentioned in the feminist world that they're trying to put in a lot of people made that argument It's not even in the movie Not even a little bit at in the slightest of ways in the like like people said she obviously thought Poe was a mole and the counter is one no lines, but a mole in the movie and two She actually likes it's possible that she just thought he was really reckless and he was gonna You know let it slip or you know, I don't know what he did that was reckless But the moral is he told Finn he got to do it No, that was post post Post the decision not to tell him anything. Yes, that's what it was before that that was reckless The thing that got him slapped by leah What was that that he did that got him slapped by leah? Well, if you remember hold on even taken out the drug Dreadnought that wasn't he saved the he saved the entire fleet. Yes. Lee's right in the she slapped him Do they confirm in the movie that they needed to take out the dreadnought or they were going to get by? The dreadnought's cannons. Yes The the cannons can fire and aim and fire at the radice at a very significant range Meaning but they needed the bombers to take out the cannons. Is that what they said? Oh, the cannons were already taken out That's why I I thought that's why I was like, okay, we're done So there's these mega cannon things that blow up the base and they're about to shoot the red at the bottom Yeah, those so the film is telling us those things can destroy the radice meaning at very large range meaning that if the dreadnought had come with them when they did the The the ambush then the radice would be destroyed Yeah, why would leah call them back? Is she's just an idiot? This is this is the thing so you say that leah slapped him and by virtue of leah slapping him You believe that he's done something reckless as opposed to leah being wrong Yes, and leah was wrong. Oh, no, it's possible. She was wrong. No, that's a great point Yeah, it's it's confirmed that leah was it's totally possible that everyone in this movie at some point was wrong That is totally possible. I see where you go with that. We're saying that specifically in this point leah was wrong Po didn't do anything wrong in the movie. I don't think so. No, but in a way, maybe it's like Okay, saying po didn't do anything wrong in the movie. I mean that's Arguable, but you gotta like you I don't know you're just not seeing it from the the female characters points of view They think he's wrong They have a decent reason to think so. I mean he did disobey his boss I Everybody in the resistance. Let me say this publicly. I would hope you disobey your commanding officer if they're planning on murdering you There was that shot where leah looked at her screen and saw all the x-wings were gone and she lamented So the alternative is everybody dies or some bombers die. So if you're a general Maybe the bombers are more important Bomber what I'm joking The bombers are more important than everything. I just don't know what leah's plan would have been if they didn't take out the dreadnought Was it just to go fast enough to not get hit by the cannons? Well, they couldn't have gone fast. That's the thing I don't know. I know I know they were trying to stop it from destroying the base that was on ducar Because that's what it was really that already happened like a hey How come at the beginning of the film they didn't shoot the ratus before? Oh god Yeah So liam just warning you like we've only been through like 30 percent of how much this movie We're not even we haven't even reached like act two. By the way, I really want to know do you guys like I'm just trying to get like a better perspective on how much you hate the film like you don't really need it I we're just talking about film stuff. Do you think that the film has some good elements? But like plot holes ruin it most you just think none of most of what I love about the film is superficial So like I love the visuals in a lot of it. Yeah I'm just a lot of places. Um, there's a couple scenes that I like I like the ideas really don't like the the last 30 minutes just Everything that I do I'm gonna I'm just looking for myself here. I just really don't like women or minorities.  Yeah, but visually it looks pretty cool You know the red on white. I like, you know, let's talk about the snook getting murdered I want to know why you say that and the black. I almost died, which would have made the movie better Wait, what did you say? Oh, are you? I don't know if you're I hope you're joking, dude I obviously joking. Come on. He's he's baiting me. Don't fall for it. Lee. Don't fall for it. I'm I almost did I'm not quite great. He was a good time. You're funny. Okay. So snook dying. Mm-hmm. How do you guys feel about it? So I I'm okay with snook being killed. It's that I needed the information on him.  Don't you think that he was a puppet master? In the first one and the second one they make him this affluent over the top like I'm the best I have all the best things. I'm super smart and powerful person Snoke yeah, I I think in the in force awakens.  That's what I mean by puppet master But he's like in the thick of it here.  The way you could almost say luke is like the reverse of that I mean he's kind of like the puppet master who hides on this island In what way is he the puppet master? I'm not he's not pulling anyone strings, but he's using my tricks to stay out of the fight. Well, no, he I'm just saying he's a puppet master.   I'm confused.  Yeah Oh, he makes him think he's there. I guess the apparition makes him think he's physically there at the very end But that's not controlling anybody else. That's just I'm just making no, but he's using his mind tricks to Manipulate, I mean that's something else that you could argue was an issue How does kylo not recognize he's using the lightsaber that he just destroyed? Same same reason why why snook didn't know kylo was going to kill him He's so blinded by his rage for luke that he is not blinded is really convenient, isn't it rags? No, it's just this is what happens when you have clients. It's realistic Dude when you client pleads insanity. It's dude. It's it's honest like when you have a character that is that rage filled He's not gonna see straight It's the ultimate defense of anything that anybody does Like and this is no slugging to you early, but the top defense I have for any action kylo takes is It's supposed to be that way. None of it makes any sense because he's just angry I'm okay with being so mad that he's not good. Are you saying that's light saber color, you know Yeah, dude, I didn't notice that I didn't notice the lights. Um, I would I would argue that I don't think everybody would However, kylo is the one of the characters that absolutely should he wants that lightsaber If you remember in the force awakens, he's like that lightsaber belongs to me Is he? How does he know that, you know, maybe luke scowalker built a new blue lightsaber? It's the same one dude the same one I would The second he starts fighting him does he look at his hand like oh, yeah, that's definitely the same one Do you think it's a stretch to believe that he would look at the lightsaber? Yeah Knowing what weapon they have is important Power could be starting to make him the same lightsaber again All right, well looks just like it Kylo's a dummy.  Maybe he goes, oh luke made a very interesting the same looking lightsaber from the one he used to You want to we can jump into crate if you want because I just I just like the idea that real quick We will but real quick. Here's why I love the snook scene that whole scene Like the build up to snook getting cut in half was just so well done I mean you see kylo sitting there the saber flings back towards him. It spins around.  He is really playing snook really well. It's so fun to watch Why did he kill snook?   Plus.  I referred to him as sith and I got a lot of like They're not safe. There's no I don't know how to classify it for you. I I have no idea what they are, but apparently they're not sith um So following the rule of two doesn't necessarily follow but um the His animosity towards both luke and snook on his anger tools. I'm like that's something I want to see Beyond him going you will beat him by a girl and then zaps him. It's like Yeah Yeah, no, I I hear you. I haven't even seen why kylo's always like snook Like why did kylo even connect to snook? Maybe he just didn't he just thought snook is more powerful because the dark side is more See how you start that sense.  Yeah, like I have ideas of what's going on, but it's given me nothing So I have to like make up in my mind. What's going on with snow? But what is luke like yoda? I shouldn't be at that point two movies in I should have some idea Why does luke like yoda? Why does luke pursue yoda? It's like we can answer that question all day You've got so many references back while I'm training baby. My point is that the film has given us so much to work with Gotcha. So you're saying you wanted kylo to like Flesh out his relationship with what we saw a little bit more What we saw were really great payoffs in the grand scheme of cinema But uh, I'm missing all of the the legwork that makes them powerful for me All I see enough I want to know was kylo was he actually working for snook? Was he always planning to betray snook? It's no tune him doing training with luke because that's the implication. No change his mind That's a great question that I think you're supposed to be asking because luke Well, no, it's a gray area was luke seeing kylo's actual future was he actually already turned Or did luke just doing that saber holding over the bed? Did that create the future he was seeing? Was he creating that future in that moment? And I think the fact that you don't know is really strong I don't even know what in the future we're talking about Do you think kylo becoming a tyrant? Do you think it follows that luke may have created kylo in that moment by threatening him with the lightsaber and thus kylo murders the other students? That's why it's such a mind-fuck and Did luke, uh, yeah We agree No, but like, you know what? I mean, it's one of those things you keep thinking about did luke start this or was he reacting? It's very much like what anakin did to padme inadvertently killing the person you love by trying to save You've got you got no hope of it making any sense if he was a good guy up until that point because again Murdering a bunch of students and maybe that's a good reason why we didn't see anything before Wouldn't it be at least wouldn't it be great if he had animosity towards those students? We saw him training with them and they all insulted him for being weak for being slow for being unable to understand the force and then Over time is getting bullied as his dad nothing as good as his mom the only voice that's supportive because his mom and dad A distant and luke is is harsh with him because yoda was harsh with him like that that's going on The only voice that's comforting is snokes.  We don't need this guy to be his kid This is too much But then when I realized where it was going the fact that yeah He couldn't be this evil if he wasn't their kid It's like it really paid off really nicely and kylo is now responsible for all their deaths I mean, I don't I was going to ask you guys. Do you think he knows that leah is dead or not because he There's nothing really to say that he knows she was in that base at the end see and that suggests to me that you see it as a really interesting sort of Yeah, because in his mind He's killing everyone my take was it was a waste the idea that uh, we don't get to see his reaction because leah and kylo That's something I can see But now that's a whole other thing that they can they can do that in the third one We know she's in it. It is possible. They're gonna have a moment. It's possible. I'm not you know, I don't I'm not saying let's wait till the ninth one. It's gonna all make sense I'm just saying it's that that is something that you don't need. I don't think to have crammed into tlj It was about kylo and luke. That's where the the flashbacks went That's where the film ended. How long were the flashbacks?  Don't you think it's very obvious that they had three flashbacks all the same scene instead of giving us No, that's that's a very common thing in film. I don't remember what it's called, but it's like, yeah If it doesn't work, whether it's common in films doesn't matter if it doesn't work I agree with you guys in that I think the flashbacks should have been actual flashbacks with like dialogue and you know A scene like yeah, that would have been awesome. I'm I'm totally on board that great For the luke vs kylo lightsaber fight. Honestly, that's what I was sure Sure, I mean we got like a second of it, but yeah, I need their conflict. I don't it doesn't have to be lightsaber fight I just need their conflict There you go. I mean for me When he killed snook and I saw that body cut in half.  What about all the repeats? Yeah, he's a corny. He's like an emperor palpatine clone. Just get him out of here.    I felt like my mind was just shattered It was like I did not expect to root for kylo at any point in any of these movies and here I am I'm rooting for this guy. He's rooting for Why exactly exactly that's the power of this film's right. They actually made you They made you like the person who's supposed to be Yes, you didn't like kylo and he threw people into a shredder those red henchmen. You didn't think he was the Oh this poor henchmen It was nice. Why do I want why do I want kylo to survive to clarify?    It's so unpredictable What a character just is bad and then he's good makes bad, then he's good That's kylo force awakens like veto it changes It changes the way it's flashing out what the force awakens did the same thing Yeah, literally changed up the weather when the sun went down He became bad. It's like he's dead. What remember that in tfa?  I thought luke was gonna Fight kylo. I was like, oh, we're gonna get a duel. This is great And then when he put that saber away and started apologizing It was like 10 times better and then when they revealed him to not be there.  I was like, oh my God, dude I don't know I don't clap in a movie. I don't clap it. Yeah, I'm not seven Get into it. Nice and dice.  I'm not seven years old I don't clap for Star Wars theater with me. You you gotta you gotta just get ready. I get go hard as long as it's not like opening weekend If there's like five guys and they're fine. No, no, this is midnight. Yeah You know, so I guess if we're talking about crate, you mentioned how much you didn't want these films to copy the old films And how you want to get them their own thing Yeah, I just saw them post like I just I clapped I clapped when I I clapped when I saw star wars I clapped dude.  No, I mean, I wasn't like, you know If when I saw force awakens and the the blanket came off of r2d2 like like one person the theater clapped I'm not on that level.  There was this great moment where I also jizzed in my pants where the Millennium falcon goes into the mine. You hear the tie fighter music raise at the at the gunner position It's just pure fan service in the best way ever. It's like a medley for a shot Yeah, they use the music they use the visuals that they just they use all the stuff we've had already That's a problem, but it was unexpected. It almost came out of nowhere.  You didn't like when the tie fighter music played. You really weren't excited Can I reflect that question back to you? You didn't like it when the star wars did the star wars? No, honestly, like that was such a Needed moment because I love it when star wars to star wars I like the story was the millennium falcon when I saw the millennium falcon. I clapped. I recognize that It wasn't just that it's the millennium falcon. This was a medley dude. Kylo sees the falcon Ship you're recognizing the song No, no, no, there's a lot of elements mentioned the tie fighter music specifically You're picking out one thing. I'm talking about like 10 things. Yeah, the whole scene You're picking out was filled. It was a star wars medley.  Let me ask you.  I'm not saying that's why this scene is good. I'm suggesting that that is the presentation But the reason we're so invested is because this is the heart of the the empire These people have just been in a half hour long Spaceship battle where they're in a kill box and they've survived it long enough to now enter The hole itself we've got they're being chased by the tie fighters So the stakes are still through the roof people are dying as they're going through the the track the the area to the center of the death star It is phenomenal. I absolutely adore that bit to then Copy it paste it cut out the narrative for why it even happens and just have the visuals and the music It's actually insulting to me Okay, I mean I Yeah, did you just say like if you take out the plot and it's just visuals then it's bad Is that what you just said? I said if you copy and paste what is an iconic moment in the other trilogies without with forgetting why it became iconic Then yeah, it insults the original scene itself.  It's what's going on in the story.   You know, we're we're getting chewy Coming to the rescue Dude, who knows? Because he's Han Solo. You think I'm gonna be like dad of the year Yeah, I'd love to have one If we sold that relationship wouldn't it be cool to see that relationship? Why better than uncle? It's you're right.  That's the only scene where you even see the relationship. So that's why it's It's like you're getting this thing that I agree with you I do want to know about And that's really all you need to know Han was gonna abandon Kylo.  So it's like You and Han knew that that was a bad idea, but he had to do it because just like luke He had to try to plant a seed in Kylo's heart That makes it exciting when his kid wants to blow up his spaceship Dude, it's just a great All of his he sent all of his tie fighters and everything to chase that one ship And remember there's like seven and for some reason there's only seven tie fighters even though yeah for whatever reason They managed to save all their 8080s This contradicts something you said earlier where he said maybe they only have four so we can prove they at least have seven And that scene. Yes, they they had more It's a different scene The whole parade hits Were those in the previous parts of the movie? Yes, you can see them in the background because they're in the supremacy Yeah, yeah, but they weren't being used It doesn't matter why would they use them in space combat? So you're saying the AT-ATs should have been used or yeah, I don't get the point you're trying to make Why why aren't there more fighters later? It's so simple. They're established to exist. Dude. Did you not see the supremacy get ripped in half?  Hello.  Do you understand how big the ship is? It has hundreds of thousands of personnel That's not even an escape The tie fighters we saw were after the ship destroyed They're after that Rags' suggestion is we saw seven after it was destroyed therefore before it was destroyed and we only see four Would you like the scene more if there was 20 tie fighters getting shy of ray have more kills No, no, that's not at all what we're saying That's what we're saying. I thought ray ray was killin