Millions of us now have health insurance under the Affordable Care Act, or what some people call Obamacare. But like many things in life, your health insurance can often be confusing and complicated. Whether you've been insured for years or you're new to the game, understanding your policy is important to your health and your wallet. First things first, you have to pay your premium every month or your insurance could get canceled, kind of like your cable subscription. You can also think of it like a shared health care piggy bank. We all chip in each month, even if we're healthy, so the money is there when we need it. If you get insurance at work, your employer probably pays most of your premium and the rest comes out of your paycheck automatically. If you have Medicaid, you most likely don't have to pay any premium at all. The federal government and your state take care of that. If you're insured through a new health insurance marketplace, depending on your income, you may be eligible for a tax credit that pays a portion of your premium. Once you have that shiny new insurance card, you'll want to try really hard to keep it in your wallet. To better your odds at staying healthy, be sure to take advantage of the free preventive services that all new insurance plans provide. But of course, stuff happens. And that's when insurance really comes in handy. Now, having insurance helps a lot, but it doesn't mean all your health care is going to be free. There are lots of details about your insurance plan that affect how much you pay when you get sick or injured. If you have Medicaid, a lot of these services could very well be free. Otherwise, you'll likely have to pay something when you go to the doctor or fill a prescription. This is called a copay when it's a specific dollar amount, like $25 per visit, or co-insurance if it's a percentage of the bill. There's also the deductible. That's how much comes out of your own pocket before your insurance starts paying. Depending on your plan, you might have a deductible for all your care or it might only apply to some types of care, like hospital stays and prescriptions. So read your plan material because it could add up to thousands of dollars. Another important part of your plan is the out-of-pocket maximum. This is the most you'll ever have to pay in any one year, at least for the benefits your plan covers. Your insurer will pay 100% of anything beyond the maximum for the rest of the year. It can be just as confusing dealing with prescriptions. Your plan has a list of drugs it will pay for called a formulary, but the prices vary. Check with your doctor or pharmacist because a generic drug might fix you up the same as a brand name drug, but the price difference could be huge. So those are the costs typically involved. But remember that they'll be affected by your insurance plan's provider network. This is a list of doctors and hospitals that are connected to your plan. Insurance companies negotiate discounts with these providers. Stay in network and the discounts get passed to you. Go out of network and you could end up paying full price. And remember that out-of-pocket limit? It won't work if you go out of network.  In other plans, like PPOs, your insurance will cover you no matter where you go, but you'll pay a lot more if you go out of network. Also, if you want to visit a specialist like an orthopedist, some plans require a referral from your primary care doctor. Sound easy enough? Well, sometimes staying in network can be tricky. In a hospital, it's possible that your surgeon could be in network while your anesthesiologist is not.  So as you can see, there's a lot to think about when you choose an insurance plan each year. Some plans may have low premiums, but fewer doctors or hospitals and high deductibles. There are trade-offs, and understanding and choosing among plans isn't always easy. Remember, if you have questions, call your health plan and ask, or check with your hospital or doctor. If you still have questions, your state insurance department or consumer assistance program can help. With the Affordable Care Act, there's new support for consumers, so take advantage of it. Insurance protection is a good thing, especially when you know how it works. We hope you're now better prepared for the next time you have to pull that insurance card out of your wallet. Stay safe, America.


Carter seem like they elevated your pitch count really early on, but still managed to make it in that seventh inning Did you think that affected you at all later in the game? I mean, it's just tough conditions early It's just so hot, you know It's tough to get a grip. It's tough to regulate your heart rate. I mean, that's probably not just for me It's probably for everybody else. We're you know Lucky it's American League you can Find opportunities in the fourth fifth and sixth to get the pitch count down without getting a double switch. So Glad we were able to do that What'd you think of the overall start?  I mean But I'm you know, we're thin, you know We've had a couple guys go short for us last couple games and some brutal travel and obviously unfortunately my king so You know my how much left I had in there, but I mean I got to give the boys everything I got tonight So it's just you know a little unfortunate that they just found some some holes, you know, I mean It's a good pitch to Mullins good pitch to Mateo, you know, not a great pitch to Urius, but bad contact and You know, it just That's their game. I mean, they don't swing and miss a whole lot. They're really tough to strike out there Shifty in terms of their aggressiveness and they put the ball in play and you know, the out of the you know They I mean a couple mistakes. No doubt like a door got away with a hard-line drive early Retrin 2-0 fastball driven Hayes bad curveball, but It's just the way the ball falls sometimes man I mean, it was a you know, to be honest like that foot try to find a little bit of fun in it It was a fun grind. I mean, I'm exhausted, but it was It was a good back-and-forth battle So good this year really taking some tough hits with Greeny and now Michael Some of the high-liberage guys have struggled has that been tough on you guys and you almost feel More pressure to go deeper to until it gets kind of settled. Yeah, I mean like I Mean tonight is tonight. Certainly. I Don't I don't know. However, generally we feel that way but like, you know, we're thin I Had to go empty it man So I'll spare to go through the fourth time. So then I gave up like eight hits and I was ready I was gonna charge right into him, you know, so I mean You know The culmination with you know, Mike going down and and and you know the travel and the rough starts in this situation certainly just They're just trying to sell out for the boys, man Or is it just sort of the oppressive I mean it's tough to breathe.  We're all playing in the same weather. So Just got to battle the elements. I think I got a breeze in like the fourth and I turned and soaked it up a little bit and You know, it was better it was better after that, but you know, that's that's this division That's just part of the country and you know, it comes with the territory So we guys have lost 8-12 any concern there if you look at it as he just working on steam or everybody for under 62 games No, I mean, it's not yeah, I didn't realize that so that's not very good So I mean Yeah, I yeah, that's not that's not that's not great But I mean there's probably a little bit of like Some of the 50-50 games that we came out on top for early, you know Maybe haven't gone our way. Obviously some bounces tonight didn't go our way, but That's probably baseball at some point. I think we assumed, you know, you know You're constantly trying to duck and dodge the adversity, but at some point, you know, you got to go through it I mean, it's just too long of a season So, you know, how we dig ourselves out of it how we continue to respond and show up is gonna be you know Yeah, I mean it's gonna show us what we're made of so Everybody's got to go through it at some point during the year. There's there's no doubt about that


night on a night where you guys a little bit shorthanded the point composition and you picked up some of that yourself. What do you think just generally of the ball movement where the offense flowed tonight?  Um, and, you know, I think cheese did a great job of, you know, getting that started early in the game, uh, come in and just play with the right pace, right tempo. Um, and you know, we have unselfish guys and, you know, especially right now with our lineup where it is and guys out and it's a unique kind of time, you know, with a lot of guys who haven't really totally played together.  And, um, that's what we all try to do. Greg Logan with Newsday. Well, Andrew, I know it's not your call, but do you have any understanding or clarity yet on whether or not Kyrie might rejoin the team tomorrow because I see you guys are so thin at point guard right now? Um, I'm not sure. I mean, you know, that's, he's dealing with what he's dealing with. Um, and, you know, our job as professionals go forth, uh, planning for the worst case scenario. So, um, you got to be prepared for whatever scenario. Um, I'm going forward preparing as if he's not going to be in the lineup, but things can change. So, um, but yeah, that's kind of, uh, where we're at. Alex Schiffer with the athletic. Hey, Andrew, Steve was talking about, you know, the challenges of playing in Minneapolis with everything going on here, there right now. And, and, you know, the social justice stuff, just how, how far is the season to kind of endure through with the pandemic going on, all this other stuff? And, you know, you guys don't really get a break from basketball with, with the condensed schedule. Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a weird year. Um, so much has happened in 365 days and it's kind of crazy, um, to, to think and reflect on that, you know, just looking back at the number of kind of things that will all, you know, when we're on our deathbed, look back and think, wow, that was your 2020, 2021, like it's just a lot to happen in this, this short time. So, um, it's great having a sanctuary at basketball. I know it's been a condensed schedule and we played a lot of games and a short amount of time, but you know, you, I think you take that with, for what it's worth. And, you know, it's, it's what we love. It's, you know, it's at the root of it. It's what we all used to do to get away from everything going on. So, um, you know, it's been a good, good outlet for sure. Well, thank you, Andrews with ESPN. Landry, forgive the abrupt transition back to basketball, but I just, I'm just curious in your own mind, I know you're mentally always, you know, being prepared, but how does your role change when you are so depleted at Guard? You guys have taken hits all over the place this year, but going into tomorrow potentially with guys from James Harden and, and Kairi, all the way to Chris Chios out. How does that change things for you? Um, just taking more ownership. You know, I don't, I enjoy that. Um, I want to, you know, take ownership for mistakes, for, you know, us having a good tempo offensively, for knowing what we're getting into. Um, you know, I just want to be the best, the best version of myself for my teammates.  So, thank point guard first and, um, do my job for my teammates and then from there, you know, the rest is gravy.


So our buddy cross that's his Screen name Says that he for ten years. He's been addicted to video games And it's it's really it's destroying his life because he doesn't go out anymore and all he won't he's literally addicted to this thing He doesn't go out. He's good at sports apparently.  I understand. You're you're physically physiologically Emotionally addicted to this shit, and I know why it can be because you're literally living in an abstract world You all of your personal identification with the characters in the game Tell you what with it. It's like you're living in the video game I understand what and I see a lot of people it happens to that's why I ran on video games often I see a lot of my friends.  It's just like any other addiction, you know is addicted to the cigarettes or whatever the case may be I was talking to a friend yesterday and We're talking about how is it that some people can can advance in life How is it that some people can move forward and some people just seem stuck?  They're stuck in mediocrity. They're stuck in The the comfort that the zone that they've created for themselves. It's because they we as human beings need one of two things It's always gonna be one of two things and the first is The one that I'm gonna tell you you're gonna need to do you need either a tragedy Or you need a goal so big that it draws you it pulls you out of bed It's much more difficult to be pulled towards something than have something chasing your ass, right?   You've got a really like brainwash yourself to do that.   Good luck


Every year we're really excited that the University is helping to support these students travelling to Hawaii again this year. It's a really great opportunity for them. Yeah, I haven't left the North Island, haven't been on a plane or anything, so that's sort of a surreal experience for me. I still haven't sunk it in really. Evening trainings are really hard because we all come out after lectures and it's cold and wet and we've had some brutal waves come over the boat and get us all wet. So yeah, that's been hard for winter trainings. Well, I've been paddling for a few years now and this is a pretty prestigious event to be part of, so we're a good experience. You're there for one purpose and then I just thought. For except for me, so they were great help and taught me all the techniques and everything and so just the whole new experience and it was quite hard but I love it. Coach, he's been saying that the trainings have been going really well. He's pitched the six paddlers that are going to be doing the long race and then they've been practicing their techniques for the relay, which includes I'm flipping the waka and he's been saying that the trainings have been going really well so I'm really proud of the guys who are putting in the effort. Morning and night for the training.


Hi everybody, it's Sam at Mixed Up Craft. Thank you for watching my tutorial today. I'm going to show you how to make a pop-up birthday cake card. So I've done many pop-up cards before. There's quite a few of this style around and I thought I would have a go at it. So this is my measurements and style and stuff and this is kind of like just my take on it really. So this is just a prototype. I started doing it and then I realized actually it's a bit too higher than I'd like. So the one I'm going to make I've just adapted the measurements a bit more. So five by seven card, open it up and you have this birthday cake that pops out. Now I don't like the gap that I've got here so I'm going to pull mine down and actually I've got something else that I want to pop up here. So again it's very very easy. Once you see how it's done then you can adapt this and it can be done in any size card that you want as well. But I thought it was really nice, really fun. I love the candles that I've added all around each of the tiers there to the birthday cake. Obviously this is for a birthday but this would look lovely for a wedding cake. So if you wanted to do it as a wedding card that would be great. So I'm going to pop that to one side. I am using the candle and the yay for the next one and this is the first edition build your own cupcake and I use this for the pop-out panel card that I've done and another card as well. I think it's really lovely. I do enjoy this one so again I'll share all the links to everything I use as always. Okay so for this one I've done a template because although it is very easy I think it's much easier for me to point to this for you to then be able to see because we're working on a white card. It can be quite confusing I think so that's that which I'll go through in a moment. As I said it's a five by seven card so this is a five by seven card blank and I just cut this from a piece of 10 by seven and along the 10 inch side I scored at five inches and folded in half. This is the paper mania do crafts colossal cardstock that I like to use. This is only 260 but because I'm adding this card inside and then I'll be matting and layering on the front it ends up becoming very strong. So that's that piece and then for the piece that we're going to be actually cutting into that goes inside so recap with this one here this white piece is separate that I've stuck in and that's what we're cutting with here and this is a piece of six and three quarters by nine and three quarters so I've just pulled it in by a quarter of an inch on each side there. That's that piece and then you just want bits and pieces to decorate so I'd already gone and cut my bunting I've cut all of my candles I've got my yay that I'm going to add in I've also cut another yay because I wasn't sure if I would use one or two so I've done all of that off camera because that's just boring to watch and then this is the paper pack forever free that I'm using today really nice not much of my eight by eight left now I've used so much of it but it is a lovely paper pack and then to decorate the cake so you need something for both sides of all the three tears there so the bottom one is a two by two square so I've just come in by one eighth of an inch so this is one and seven eighths of an inch squared you need two pieces the next one is a one and a half by one and a half square so I've come into one and three eighths of an inch squared again two pieces and then the top one is a one by one square so you probably guessed it you need a seven eighths of an inch squared piece and you need two of those okay so I'll come off a little bit there as long as you can see this bit of the cake so with this nine and three quarters by six and three quarters along the nine and three quarters side you want to score at four and seven eighths of an inch which is halfway just got that all off the top of my head let me double check yep four and seven eighths of an inch and then fold in half okay so although I've put in here cut lines are the blank lines and I've done a blank line right through the middle I have highlighted that that is actually your middle score line do not cut so if you are looking back at that you don't want to cut down through there but that is now that middle score line then what you want to do now this is optional how high up you come so on this one that I done here I came up and started my first cut at one inch but looking at it now I just think it's two it looks like it's just floating just doesn't quite look right so this time I've come up by half an inch okay but depending on what you're going to have up here you know you might want to come down even more you might want to just come out a quarter of an inch or you might be happy to come up that one inch because you may not be adding candles here because if those candles were taken off it's actually balanced because that's one inch there and one inch there okay so hopefully that makes sense with this one by the time now I've got this I've got how much have I got three at the top one and three quarters but I'm going to be having that yay there so that's filling up that space that's why I've done it okay so first of all what you want to do is you want to mark these crosses at these different measurements here so come up first of all from that in that centre score line come up about half an inch and put a little cross there okay then from that half an inch you want to come up two inches so in total that's two and a half but if you just do it from each cross so from that cross you're coming up two inches put another little cross then from that cross you're coming up one and a half inches put a little cross and then from that one you're coming up one inch and I've marked that here so two inches one and a half and one okay so they you should have those four crosses then from those four crosses what I find easiest is to lie your ruler on it and you want to come out two inches on each side so if you lie your ruler down here just come up a little bit there trying to keep everything in so you can see if you pop your ruler in and make sure that the two inches is lying on that middle score line then basically all you need to do is draw a line from the very end here all the way up to four inches so that means you've got two inches on this side and two inches on that side then you want to come up to that next cross and again you're going to do the same so two inches and you're just going to do a pencil line all the way across so it's a four inch line okay now the next one when you come up you want to put the one and a half marker in the center of the score line on your ruler and then you're going to draw a pencil three inches okay and then the last one you're going to come up and put the one inch marker on your ruler in the middle of that score line and you're just going to draw a line that that is two inches long okay so now you should have two and two two and two one and a half and one and a half and one and one okay so I've got two two two two one and a half one and a half one and one next we want to do these score lines you'll see I've just done little dash marks just to highlight that these are score lines and I've also popped it there as well the easiest way to do these is just I'm going to remove that just for a minute just because I need a bit more space the angle that I do this so I'm going to grab my stylus here and just pop your ruler down I'm going to start with the top one here you want to make sure it's really straight so what I would say I'm going to bring in my t-square ruler here because I can make sure this is really straight and you just want to line it up I'm going to start from the top so the very edge of this pencil mark here and I'm going to score down to that next pencil line okay so I've just scored that one there which is this one here so you're just scoring it down to that one there okay then the next one I'm going to come across and score again making sure it's nice and straight which is why the t-square ruler is good for this because it will make sure you are dead straight so now I've just scored this one here now I'm going to score that one now this one is the only one that will join perfectly from cut line to cut line because that's your base so you can see there that score line marries up all the rest will join down into that cut line you see but this one you just want to make sure so here there it is I'm going to join it up to that one there so again just line that all up okay so now you just want to do the same on the opposite side okay so I'm happy with that next you're going to do some cutting so we are now going to cut along each of these lines so this basically where you've done all the crosses you're going to cut every one of those lines so all that will be left is these dashes and that's the score lines so I've got my metal ruler which I've just put away bring that back out and I've got my blade here so I'm going to start from the top again it should be nice and straight watch your fingers and just cut that one like so so if I just bring that one up you can see now I just cut across there and go down do the next one again you can see there so now I've got those two cut lines and I'm just going to do the last two here okay so now you should have these four cut lines right next I'm going to rub out everything because you don't want that all in there now so get rid of that before we just fold it all into place okay so all you should be left with now is these four cut lines and then score lines all down here and all down here and then obviously that score line that goes right through the middle next you want to lift out the cake so you want the cake all the cake pieces to come towards you and then you want your score line of the centre of the card to go away from you so what I would say is if you just start to kind of bend all those score lines at each side of the cake tiers like so so basically you're creating everything should be a valley fold you see even that's a valley fold and all these are valley folds and then you should be able to fold the whole thing over okay which I can and it should all line up I have to work it a little bit but I'm happy with that so now I open that you can see we've got our pop out and that's it so it's very easy it's just following I guess you know those measurements and just making sure that you really do make sure that you get your score lines perfectly lining up with where those cut lines are I will share all the other pop-up cards that I've done because I've done quite a few now so there's lots of different variations and ways to obviously change this as well so next you just want to sit it in your card base make sure you've got a nice border all the way around which you should do and then you'll know it's all going to work okay because what you don't want to do is decorate it all and then go to stick it in and realise something's off so you're best doing that now because the worst case is you have to redo that bit that you don't want to have to rip everything apart so just check it and if you're happy with it then we'll move on now to decorating it so I find it better to just flatten everything again and then once you start adding these lovely little mats it will start to bring that actual cake to life so the biggest ones make sure I've got my flowers the right way up they're going to go right down there they wouldn't there won't be much of a border if any with these ones because they're just slightly smaller if you want more of a border then obviously you're going to reduce them down more but they will be like so okay so stick them all down now okay so now they're stuck down you can really see it starts to come together now I'm going to stick my candles in obviously you know I'm aware not everybody will have this die set but what you can do is just cut some you know silver strips just some very very you know these are tiny let me just grab my ruler I keep putting it back and I always use it so they're a quarter of an inch wide and although a lot of this gets hidden behind each one they're two inches high so if you were to just cut you know strips like that then you can still get this effect so what I'm going to do is this here so I've stuck three along the two inch boxes at the bottom and they're tucked in behind two on the one and a half and then one on that one but what I'm probably going to do is not do the candles on the top here and I'm going to add this yay so what I've done is I die cut the yay which is like that so that's it flat but because this card's obviously going to fold in half I've gone and folded it right through the a there so that now when I add that in that will fold with the card so when it opens it's going to stand out like so and I just think that looks really nice at the top of the cake so that will get stuck down there and then all of the candles throughout so I'll pop it on high speed now just so you can see how I'm doing it all and then I'll be back when it's all done okay so that's everything decorated I'm really pleased with this version I think having that shorter area there it just looks a lot more balanced now and then I went ahead and added the bunting this is bunting that I purchased from the works a while back I did share links to it I don't know if it's still available on their website but I will share it if I can but they're really handy and I've used them they're perfect for birthday cards well for any nice occasion cards but that's that all ready to go now and I'm really happy with it another thing I would say is I'm using this Alene's tacky glue it dries although it says tacky it doesn't ever stay tacky it dries completely clear so make sure if you are using a wet glue when you're sticking anything behind that it does dry completely and it isn't tacky because the last thing you want is when you go to sandwich this all together it sticks see this won't stick now because it's all dry and that I'm really happy with the way that I folded that A because that does fold nicely you can see there and everything bounces back up so next we need to stick it all in here I'm just going to sit it in just to make sure yes that purple frame around it really does make that pop love it love it love it right easiest way to stick this down is I'm going to use I'm going to actually use the new dot and dab this is the permanent roller tape or run a tape from Trimcraft but it's their dot and dab range so I'm going to run this along obviously you can use double sided tape whatever's easiest but this is quite handy to be able to just kind of get into all these little bits here now I've used a lot more than I probably need to but I'm just this first time using it so just want to make sure this is not going to come apart I'm doing one side at a time and just like I do most of my pop-up cards sit the non sticky side down first and make sure you line it up with the border that it should have so just make sure it's even on all four sides pull it out a little bit from the score line because because there's a lot of bulk and you're folding it in on itself it does need a little bit of space for that so I'm going to bring that in and then I'm going to just I'm going to lift the top up first actually because I just want to make sure this is I'm going to fold it that way and stick that because I'd rather see exactly how this is going to look then folding it all over and I'm going to fold it on that side and you can really push down now and make sure that's all stuck down it seems to stick really well so so far so good get right in there there we go so that's one side all nicely secure and then this side here I'm just going to go again and now I can just fold this one over although I'm saying that I'm going to do it I'm going to lift it up still slightly just there we go just to kind of tack it there and then I can fold it all down you really make sure that's stuck and there you have it I absolutely love that I think that is such a special card I'd love to receive that myself so my birthday is not for a while now I've had my birthday but if anybody wants to send me this one that would be nice so yeah that is that done so now I'm just going to decorate the front okay so I've just cut these two pieces here so I've used this lovely shimmery card stock this was actually part of the fairy tales dovecraft collection so I will link that in but obviously you know any kind of colors or papers that you've got will work so this is four and three quarters by it's six and three quarters so this is five by seven that's my standard mat size when I use five by seven so you'll see there that just give you a nice even border and then the layer there to go on top should be yep four and a half by six and a half and that's going to stick on top again and then it's literally down to you how you're going to decorate I'm just going to because I haven't got any sentiment on this and it's a birthday card I've got my happy birthday sentiments here I love my tattered lace this is the happy birthday here but I also like this one here which my mum gave me so I'm going to use one of those I'm probably not going to do that on camera because it is just die cutting and sticking down so I'll just share the pictures with you over on my blog and you'll see them at the beginning of the video anyway so I'm just going to get this stuck down okay so there is the finished card so I went for the happy birthday here the circular one and I die cut it from some of the dovecraft holographic cardstock again I'll share all of this in my links but it looks really nice I kept it really simple because all of the hard work and the wow factor is obviously inside you can see there that nice sparkle from the shimmer paper and I also pop this paper here on some foam adhesive so you can just see there just underneath just to give it again a little bit of dimension and then when you open it up wow you've got that beautiful card inside now you can write your messages here if you want but I am going to put mine on the back so when I do go to use this card I'll just stick a piece of white paper on the back the same size as these or probably do a map down a layer as well on the back and then I can stamp and write my issue my issue stamp and write my message there on the back but they have a guys really lovely card really fun and yeah I hope the person that receives this really likes it and I hope you do too so if you did please give me a thumbs up and subscribe to my channel so you get to see more thanks for watching bye


Today we welcome science historian best-selling author and One of the world's best known skeptics Dr. Michael Schermer back to Skepticoe He's here to talk about his new book heavens on earth the scientific search for the afterlife immortality and utopia Dr. Schermer, it's always fun to talk to you. You are one of my favorite Skeptic frenemies and it's good to have you back Right here in in a hotel room as you can see in beautiful San Francisco The lighting is really funky here. It should get a little.  Yeah, that's better Great, you know, yeah, I was just thinking before as I was kind of doing the introduction stuff like a man I Wonder if there'll be another Michael Schermer I mean, I think you captured a certain Time and you found your own lane and you found a voice. I just wonder with you know things change I wonder if that'll ever come again. Oh Yeah, no for sure. There's lots of skeptics doing what I do You know, I never wanted to be called the personality for Skeptic magazine and Skeptic Society when I'm gone You know moving on to the great iCloud above where my connectome will live forever But my physical body is done the Skeptic magazine will continue the Skeptic Society will continue there, you know, there's You know plenty of funding for You know continuing the organization. It's not based on me at all really I'm the currently driving force But and then in terms of my books, you know, I just try to do what you know, right about what I'm interested in that I think is you know relatively important but There's certainly nothing special about that. There's a lot of great science writers I was just at a book event last night with Leonard Millad now and you know He's one of the great science writers Steve Pinkers one of my good friends as the Sam Harris Richard Dawkins You know a lot of people writing about science and reason and skepticism So I think it's a big movement now and in fact my latest column I just that just came out and cited to American is on the rise of atheism that there's a lot more Atheist than not not just the rise of the nuns the people that tick the box for no religious affiliation but because those people may be going to be supporting Deepak Chopra or something, you know just the You know the New Age movements or whatever not necessarily becoming atheist, but But I think a lot of them now are now the rise of atheism, you know We are a powerful voting block. So I am just one voice among many Along with yourself.  I appreciate I appreciate humility because I think you really have made more of an impact But that's great, you know, and I'm so glad you're here I talked with you a couple years ago about your book the moral arc a book that I really liked We had a good conversation on but this time around your latest book is kind of much closer to the skeptical swing zone Tell folks a little bit about what you set out to do With heavens on earth Well, it was sort of a Part of it is an extension of my previous book the moral arc talking about utopias for example The attempts to create a heaven on earth and and why that always fails But of course, that's not what most people believe most people believe that That there's some place to go after the death of the body and brain That the mind or soul or you know some incorporeal Ethereal essence that represents who we are moves on to some other place. So I just decided to take a swing at you know looking at the Scientific aspects of that, you know to what extent is that true? What is it that different religions claim? And so right off the bat for example, there's a history to heaven And this is not like to say the history of cosmology where there's a sense of a growing Yeah, but I think heaven really takes us in another direction, which is a direction that you've covered and covered well in terms of religion, but You know, I think it's kind of a tricky word when you get into heaven I mean what I really wanted to focus on because like I say this has been a topic of mind an interest of mine I've probably interviewed Have a hundred interviews with some of the top consciousness researchers names that you would recognize near-death experience researchers Yeah, okay. All right. Yeah, sure. I guess where we might start where I thought we might start because heaven's on earth One of the areas you get into is near-death experience because I think when you look at science And you look at what's going on and what's made an impact in the culture Certainly this idea of okay Does this consciousness thing survive bodily death has been one place where we can kind of put our attention and really answer that question And I don't know. We need to dig into that. I don't know that you really did a very comprehensive job of looking at that research And that's I guess the longest chapter in the book Uh, I'll tell you I have written about that before I know all about the the topic and I I didn't want to ramble all about the topic You think you pretty well versed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Yeah that read reincarnation Anomalous experiences and so on so the the idea is that You know, most of us are dualistic by nature.  So the near-death experience then is Alleged to be an example or evidence of how this can happen And but of course, we you know, we have to start right off by pointing out that the people Are not actually dead. It's near-death. It's called near-death for a reason. They're not dead They're they're near-death and that's very different that that is your brain your consciousness is still going At some level even if you're you're you're unconscious at the moment There's still some part part of your brain operating that generates these experiences So I talk about that'd be a good topic to get into because that's And and I want to go there because I think that's kind of misunderstood and misconstrued by a lot of people We have a whole bunch of neuroscience that says these are the conditions under which a brain is able to Function in terms of memory in terms of conscious experience So this idea of neth death versus near-death, you know, we'll get into that in minutes Certainly when someone is completely comatose from every measure we have we don't believe there's any conscious experience going on So I don't know Let's talk about hold up on ebbon because I want to talk about him later But the first thing I wanted to hit you with is just that the first thing I did when I got the books I went to the index and I said, okay, here are all the near-death experience researchers I've talked to are they in there? No name after name after name, none of them in there. You know a couple years ago I interviewed Jan Holden from the University of North Texas Who along with Bruce Dr. Bruce Grayson from the University of Virginia two of the most prominent names in near-death experience research They compiled this book the handbook of near-death experiences mainly for People in the medical community so that when they encounter someone who comes up out of a cardiac arrest and said Hey, I had this incredible experience They can be at least Familiar with what to tell them at the time they published this book Michael in 2009 They had over a hundred peer reviewed papers that they included in their book by now There's over 200 peer reviewed papers. I don't see any of that in your book I think it's a part we'll make it well Look, yeah, I don't have to cite everybody that's ever written on the subject But you don't cite any of them. You don't cite Oh, yes, I do. Penvun Lommel, Sam Parnia, who else? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You misrepresented both of them, but you you at least cited them But anyway, uh, let's back up for a second and and um, this I I'd have to say, you know Evan Alexander, I want to talk about him, but technically he's not a near-death experience researcher He's a harvard neurosurgeon that had a near-death experience and wrote a book about it, right? That's right, but he knows a lot about it. He knows as much as you do As much as I do because he hasn't published peer reviewed papers. I'm looking at the science A peer reviewed paper thing is a that's a red herring. I'm not denying that people have real experiences You're you're treating this as if the experiences represent some other dimension A heaven a place to go and that is not at all what these peer reviewed papers indicate all they say is that the people that have the experiences have very real experiences Which I agree the experiences these people have are very real The question is is do they represent? just neural activity or neural activity and Something else and I claim that none of the research I've read none of the stories none of the papers Uh are evidence of an afterlife you do claim that and and michael look you're a science guy And you love science you're poured on science and you do a good job And the other thing you do a good job on and has been one of your strong points with christian apologist is you've called them on Cherry picking right say taking bible scripture and cherry picking out pieces that they want in order to make their point I got to say I think that's what you've done here with the near-death experience research and I'd give you just one example So you're a medical historian You're not a medical doctor right you don't claim to be a medical doctor I'm not a medical historian. I'm just a historian of science So but go ahead and give me your best example of what you think Not not not neural activity that produces a powerful experience People can get that from ayahuasca from ecstasy From deep meditation and so on we know this you can get it from brain stimulation. You can get it from oxygen deprivation I I mean you think you seem to think it's something beyond that Well, here's where I would focus on is on the research On the science I don't think peer review is a red herring per se. I think when you look It's the best means we have right now in science for policing science finding out if people are doing good work What what papers are you talking about? I'll get to that. Okay, so I'd say you're not a doctor So when we get into medical fields I like to look at doctors. I like the near-death experience research from a guy named Jeff long Radiation oncologist, right? So this is a guy who works with death and dying patients all the time He also happens to be a near-death experience researcher Compiled the largest database of near-death experiences Analyzed it scientifically with a scientific survey and here's what he says I'll pull that up for you right now So I guess the question is for the average person who's trying to sort through this idea of near-death experience science research How do they sort through it? How do they know what research really holds up out there? The key thing is to know a few of the consistently seen elements of near-death experience That are the strongest evidence for their reality For example When you're under general anesthesia, it should be impossible to have elucidic organized Remembrance at that time In fact under anesthesia, you're typically so far under with general anesthesia. They often have to breathe for you I mean, you're literally brain shut down to the level of the brain stem And at that point in time some people have a cardiac arrest their heart stops and of course that's very well documented They monitor people very carefully that are having general anesthesia So I have dozens and dozens of near-death experiences that occurred under general anesthesia And at this time it should be if you will doubly impossible to have a conscious remembrance And yet they do have near-death experiences at this time and they're typical near-death experiences They have the same elements and a period of have them in the same order as near-death experiences occurring under all other Circumstances and in fact a critical survey question I asked was what their level of consciousness and alertness during the experience was well Even under general anesthetics under those powerful chemicals to produce sedation If they had a near-death experience under general anesthesia Their level of consciousness and alertness was identical to near-death experiences occurring under all other circumstances There's absolutely no way the skeptics can explain that away. It's impossible Well, we have a skeptic here Explain it away. He's wrong. Uh, not every single one. He's wrong. Let's make sure we understand. He is a medical doctor He is a full-time radiation oncologist. He works with people who are under anesthesia Every day, but he's wrong Tell me how you are Tell me how your expertise would lead you to believe that he's wrong about his medical understanding of the state of consciousness There is a phenomenon of a small percentage of the population when under general anesthesia They become aware of what's going on. It's well known. Well known. I've interviewed An anesthesiologist more than one on this show. So there you go. That's it. That does not that does not explain It's a well known phenomenon that that they they work around Alex you seem to be missing my point It isn't denying that people have powerful neural experiences under different conditions Oxygen deprivation sleep deprivation They have these floating out-of-body experiences in the uh, james wintery's research with the pilots that are accelerated and centrifuges stimulating um Part of the temporal lobe during these epileptic great. You're really making my points here. So Uh that you can you can replicate all of the Um experiences that people report in in these through drugs through conditions through neural stimulation Not true, but you're still making you're still making all of my shows that 100 of the Experiences they have are neural related. They're they're related to the brain Now maybe you want to argue that at some point The consciousness lifts off the neurons and floats out into space. Is that what you're arguing? I'm arguing that i'm just going to repeat to you what dr Long told me don't repeat to me what dr Long says Tell me what you think Do you think that the connectome or your memories or your thoughts float off of the brain? They're they're no longer connected to the neural tissue and go somewhere else. Is that what you think? I'm happy to answer that and you can grill me with all the questions But I didn't want to return to one thing because I think Alex we're having a conversation. Tell me what you think happened Let me close the window here. We're getting the uh, that's a great san francisco sound. We got to have that in there though Yep. So what do you think? What do you think happens? I again? No, you want to talk about red herring? I think that's a red herring because again, you're a science guy. You know what? So we can falsify Paradigms, we can falsify theories without substituting another theory So i'm not sure how consciousness works What I think the evidence strongly points to is that our current model of consciousness being 100 percent tied to neural activity Doesn't fit and that's where I'd return you to dr Long's statement because I think there's some subtle points in there that folks who are hell bent on Dismissing near-death experience data miss. So do you remember the point where he says? That not only are these people having this experience under general anesthesia But their experience is consistent with other people that are having it under different medical situations Rains are structured the same way with the same neural chemistry But Michael Michael, let me just finish let me just finish my point because you're really not you're really not I just you're just not quite correct there because what we know from Neuroscience what neuroscience this tells us it's the basics is that different medical conditions different Physiological conditions create different situations in the brain like you mentioned that they also produce similar experiences and not But they shouldn't be producing the people that describe heaven They're different heavens if they were actually going to a real place The place should look the same, but that doesn't it varies considerably. So how do you explain that mr. Non-skeptic? You know what? I cannot you got an actual place that should look the same. Why doesn't it look the same you got me on that? I cannot explain that I don't see the same people, you know christian see jesus, but others that are not christian. They don't see jesus You got me you got me on that too. That's a that's a question. I don't have an answer for well, okay? So one answer is that Do you want to I want to I want to get another researcher to the table because in your book one of the points you make Is okay the transformative power and near-death experiences. I'm not denying that they're transformative But that's not that's not what her clips is but her clips speaks to specifically Specifically this is right out of your book, which Is you make the point that hey people when they're resuscitated? They claim to have seen things that they shouldn't be able to see well, they've seen it on tv. They make it up Here's a researcher who asked that question with the control group I had then patients who had been successfully resuscitated, but they didn't have a near-death experience or they didn't have the outer body component And I asked them if they could describe what they thought that we had done to them and And they were like, what do you mean? I don't I was dead. I don't remember anything, right? Exactly. That's right. And they were saying why are you asking me this? I have no idea what you did to me at all I and The majority of them couldn't even guess They couldn't make a guess as to what we'd done And then a few of them then did make a guess and it was based on tv hospital dramas That they've been watching and what I found is that there were errors and misconceptions in what they thought we had done to them And so some of them thought that they had been dc shocked with the paddles And they hadn't those people had just had the resuscitation the cpr and drugs administered such as adrenaline or noradrenaline And then some of them made educated guesses But the place where they thought that we put the paddles onto their body Was completely erroneous. It was wrong. It was incorrect So data data, you know, this is great stuff Yeah So it just you know, it just goes to show that the people who did report the near-death experience Describe their experience with with accuracy whereas the control group weren't Wants accurate and they most of them couldn't even hazard a guess Okay, so first of all Full disclosure. You didn't know about that research Uh, I know about similar research to this that What are the objective criteria by which they decide whether a narrative account is a hit or a miss of what they did? How many details have to get correct for you to say?  You have to I'm glad you're back to science. She wrote and published a peer reviewed paper What what what was the criteria for deciding if a narrative was a hit or a miss? Well, the the narrative was the survey that they did which was a professional scientific survey, right?  I mean, I don't want to Sound condescending of course you understand that medical surveys are really the backbone of science So if someone takes a medication, we go in and we ask them. How did you feel?  How does this? What is this sensation? So people were calling experiences and calling things are a part of it So she did a profession because if the person is floating up at the ceiling and looking down at the Operating table or whatever right and that they're getting details Beyond what somebody would from their imagination, okay? You surely know about the experiment where this has already been done where they set up Platforms up by the ceiling with photographs facing up such that if somebody does this in an er You're referring to dr. Sanparnia. Who is a colleague? And they've never had any hints, okay? Why not? But again, you're misrepresenting that The more you the more you hone down and fine-tune the objective exact opposite is true Opposite appears it's just like with esp as sue blackmore Always pointed out also with nde's the tidy you make the controls the weaker the effect gets I don't think that's true at all and as a matter of fact That's kind of my main point that i'm coming at you with is I just don't think you've Fairly looked at the near-death experience research like you just referenced dr. Sanparnia been on the show multiple times dr. Penny sartory been on the show multiple times skeptics of near-death experience science interviewed many of them Sanparnia and dr. Penny sartory Along with dr. Peter fennec We're a group that has researched together. They started out in the uk Uh all this different stuff. Dr. Sanparnia is one of the leading experts in the world on Resuscitation so again, these are medical experts their conclusions matter They matter more than someone just casually looking at it. Dr. Parnia's conclusion is exactly consistent with Dr. Penny sartory dr. Peter fennec dr. Jeff lone Every near-death experience researcher has come to the same conclusion What do you suggest that consciousness survives death? No one's ever reported seeing one of the photographs accurately never not one So what are you talking about? We can talk about the conclusions that the guy has from his research And you have to be careful with this because as we talked about before and we can talk about again You you can't misrepresent Someone's position you can pick apart their research and say why you think it's wrong But you can't say they're saying one thing when they're saying another that I can't take Your book and say oh I shall give you an example Okay, you remember this one, right? Yeah So Dr. Penn von Lommel writes this paper Michael Schermer scientific american says hey, this thing strikes a blow against Yeah, in my opinion No, yeah, you can't you can't Alex the god when you have when you write a science paper I'm sorry I'm saying that he thinks that it supports the uh, that you know the modus position of Of holy brain and no mind. I didn't say that I said that's my opinion No, what you said is right up on the screen You said that this study delivers a blow to the idea that mine Did I read the study I said it delivers a blow. Yeah, that's right That would be like me saying your book heavens in earth heavens on earth Delivers a blow against the Neurological model that consciousness is tied. No, I would be I could do that. I could do that I could do that, but I would be misrepresenting Your position. I wouldn't be fair to my audience if I told my audience Hey, Michael Schermer thinks that's not the case, but I think that's the case That's one thing but to say that that his book Without putting into context delivers a pull and and the evidence of this is clear I mean you have dr. Penn von Lommel coming at you saying hey, this is This is completely wrong. My research argues exactly the opposite, but I don't want to go He may argue for that, but I think his research points in the opposite direction It does not point to consciousness beyond life It points to powerful neurological experiences that people Misrepresent as floating off into the ether somewhere So let's get at that. Let's tell me what you think in your opinion since you studied this extensively When the person is up by the ceiling looking down What is the medium or platform that holds the Thoughts and memories and and how do you see something without a without a visual apparatus without a break? How does an ethereal spirit see anything? Again and and I repeat myself, but I really feel strongly about this is that I don't think we have to to falsify the existing Model of mind equals brain and we should never look beyond that Is a huge step and to take that step allows us to then begin to answer those questions I don't think we have to have those questions answered in order to say this is what the data is telling us This is what the scientists are telling us Alex that's not where we're talking about it's clear from this conversation and the books And papers you're showing me that you and these other researchers Definitely think this is evidence of the continuation of consciousness. All right, so Curious minds want to know how does consciousness continue without a break? But again, that's the question that's the question We need a man on the moon effort to answer But you know the the one point that you'd make That that you kind of no one knows. Okay, right. That's right. No one knows it. It's a mystery So one thing that isn't a mystery That I think we can't misrepresent. Go ahead. I'm sorry Neurological activity or it's neurological activity and something else. Okay, so I compile a lot of evidence that And not just with the NDE say in my chapter with Deepak Chopra He thinks consciousness continues beyond death not because it floats off the brain and is hovering somewhere else But because consciousness is well, I'll use his words the the the ontological primitive It is the ground of all being you can't get underneath consciousness You can't drill into the atom down to strings or quarks and find consciousness It is in a sort of panpsychism way. It's everywhere. And so when your Conscious mind lifts off the that the brain it doesn't go anywhere. It's just it's just still part of consciousness That's pervasive throughout the universe. So it's the same question with with Deepak that I say to him Well, what's more likely that the research we have a neurology points to The brain the mind equals the brain and nothing more or the mind equals the brain and something more and in my opinion The evidence points to just brain in his opinion if there's enough to go in the other direction Okay, so we don't have a part of the problem you and I and everybody else has is we don't have a code theory of consciousness. We don't know how Brains produce what we're doing right now that is experiencing life. And so without that theory of consciousness We're not going to have a code in theory of altered states of consciousness. So we have a collection of of accounts and experiments of unusual things that happen not just mds There's there's many many more unusual. I have a whole chapter on anomalous psychological experiences that people have including my own And you know, I've written about You know the sense presence that people have alpine climbers and solo sailors and and solo flyers and so on where they sense a presence in the room Very powerful. Okay. There's whole books on anomalous psychological experiences like Stanley Kripner studies I know all about this research the question is what does it represent? Well, we don't know for sure because we don't understand consciousness yet So all's we can do at this point and say well in my opinion The lines of evidence all point to No brain no mind But there's enough anomalous weird things and we don't have a good theory of consciousness that it allows you and others to say Well, no, I think i'm gonna I'm think i'm gonna say it can go this other way and that consciousness survives death. Okay, maybe On that last part, I don't know that that's really the direction where things are going You know the last time we talked to you a couple of years ago One of the guys you brought up on your team was Uh, dr. Kristof Koch, right a guy I've spoken to interviewed on this show. Hey, man. He's moved over He switched yours, right? Okay, sort of moved over the position has shifted these guys are no longer holding to the mind equals brain thing You know another clip i was gonna play for you, but i played enough Very nice to do it. But the deep box says you need a brain. Well, hold on sam See I heard I could play for you the clip of sam harris and david chalmers, right? So sam harris, I don't think much of sam harris, but he's the name everybody knows David chalmers one of the leading researchers in consciousness for a number of years and they're they're talking they say, you know, uh Dan Dennett, you know the consciousness is an illusion. Come on. You don't really think he believes that do you? I mean, we're not still stuck there, right? So this idea that you're putting forth this kind of militant Uh materialism mind equals brain. We've moved past that all the leading players have moved past that michael That's just they haven't oh, no, no. Well, christof. Koch has moved past it david chalmers has moved past it sam harris has moved past it Who are you going to point to? I know sam. I know sam quite well. He he has to move past anything. What are you talking about? He's he's not a strict materialist. He's not a strict mind equals brain guy. No he's totally in the panpsychism spirituality something other than strict mind equals brain materialism Get a public event together in austin that he's gonna post in a week or two that you can listen to where you know, he Uh, you know, we ask him bring him on. I'll have both you guys on at the same time and I'll invite the people that talk to you But anyway, all right, so Obviously, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this point And it's not going to be resolved. You know today, you know, it's a hard problem And you know, that's why charmers calls it the hard problem. I'm not sure I've talked to pinker about this Who's a good friend? Steve thinks it may not be a soluble problem because we're we're phrasing it the wrong way. We're asking Uh science to do something it can't do in terms of you know, what first of all, what do you even mean by consciousness? Now I what sam means I think and most people would agree is what it's like to be something like what it's like to be a bad Or what it's like to be a dolphin now on stage We kind of disagreed on on the next point which is in my opinion If to find out what it's like to be a dolphin say You know, I strapped on flippers and I put on some sonar equipment And I reprogram my brain to process sonar instead of visual and Whatever instead of human apparatus and I just kept morphing a lot I could hold my breath for 10 minutes and And so on and so on at some point I would just be a dolphin And I wouldn't even be I wouldn't even know that I was a human asking what it's like to be a dolphin Now now sam disagrees with that. So I'm not sure actually what that means in terms of your pens Like I don't think it means that but but that what it's like to be something To to get at that you have to kind of be that You know what it's like to be a glass of water, you know in deep pocket pens like is the glass of water is conscious It's just very simple consciousness And you know what it's like to be a dog.  What are some of the other Key findings or points that you were trying to get across in the book heavens on earth because you do have It's we did focus on a small part of it. What what else do people need to know like even at the very beginning I kind of pulled you off this thing of the history of heaven which I think is an interesting point Well from the very beginning We can't even imagine what it's like to be dead because to imagine something you have to be alive and conscious So it's like imagine being under general anesthesia. You can't imagine Because to imagine something you have to be awake.   You just don't exist Well, I can't conceive of what that would be like. It's it's literally inconceivable So this sets up something of a paradox I cannot conceive of not being alive and yet I see death all around And the hundred billion people that lived and died before us are gone and they've they've never come back Short of the handful of near-death experience type things or the claims of resurrection of jesus and things like that or in the case of You know hinduism reincarnation Okay, so I mean you're focused on nbe's but there's lots of other versions of this That have nothing to do with that and and the people believe as strongly as you do, you know that something continues after consciousness. Okay In my book I I conclude that no one knows including me. I don't know that there's no afterlife I don't know that you know when I close my eyes for the final time. I won't wake up in some place and there's My friends carl sagan and christopher hitchens and steven j. Gould and my parents and you know people that I have known and loved And are gone. Maybe they're gonna be somewhere and I'm gonna be there with them I'm good with that. I think I find i'm quoting christopher hitchens description of the christian heaven is celestial north korea You know, we you have this dictator that knows all your thoughts and controls everything and you're there to worship Him, you know the dear leader that doesn't sound very heavenly to me But you know his point is that What are we talking about when we're talking about the continuation off into someplace else? So This is not a light problem. You know with christian groups, for example I said well when I'm when I die and i'm i'm reborn i'm a christian So i'm in heaven with jesus. What's up there? Is it this physical body? And some of them go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, like jesus was physically resurrected The empty tomb the tomb is empty. So his body it's not just like it With your examples of nde consciousness lifts off the brain and floats off somewhere No, for christians jesus, you know left the tomb the empty tomb So the physical resurrection of the of the whole body and brain is what goes to heaven for for some sex now To that I say well, how old am I then? Uh, well you're 30 because that's the age jesus was when he was crucified He was 30. It's like well i'm 63 now. So what happened to the 33 years? You know that doesn't that go with it, you know all the memories and the stars and whatever else has happened to me And I say well no you'll be made whole again You know the blind shall see the deaf shall hear and the you know handicapped or whatever will be made whole again And so here I quote my friend julia sweeney that sent her to that live to meeting and her monologue letting go of god Where the marvin boys come to her house in hollywood and knock on the door and they're pitching their mormon religion you know everybody gets a planet and so on and And the you know the blind shall see in the deaf shall hear and so because well, I had uterine cancer So I don't have my uterus anymore. Do I get my uterus back when I go to heaven? If you imagine these 18 year old boys and their starts white shirts going uterus I don't know. Yeah, you get your uterus back. She goes. I don't want it back Because what have you had a nose job and you liked it? so, I mean so there's all kinds of Logistical issues here. What are we talking about when you're up there? Okay, maybe it's not the physical part It's just your memories. Okay, but which memories?  They're like a wiki. They're edited constantly And they're upgraded and changed depending on new circumstances We know that we were biased and we back engineer into our Memories The consequences of what we did and so we justify and rewrite our memories to justify our actions and so on So all this happens in the course of a lifetime There's no like if we took a snapshot of your connectome as it's called the analog of your genome And copied it and put it in the cloud this scientific version of Of what we're talking about here that I write about I call it the afterlife for atheists Because this is what a lot of people are trying to do copy the connectome Which would presumably be all your memories and float it off into you know stored in a computer Put it in the cloud or something and turn it on so first of all Which memories because that's just a snapshot of me at that particular moment And then if it continues those memories are going to keep changing But but worse is the point of view self the point of view of being looking at through the world and experiencing life Now which there's a continuation from day to day Interrupted by sleep and anesthesia or whatever, but but there's a continuation To turn it off You know copy it turn it off kill me and then put the copy into the cloud I don't think my point of view self would go with it Any more than if we say copied you alex right now with the sophisticated fmri brain scanner copied your connectome And uploaded the digital file of all your memories into the cloud while you're still alive and you're still sitting there In your podcast room there Alive and awake and fine and we turn the copy on up in the cloud Your point of view self wouldn't suddenly leap there. You'd be still sitting there going. No, no, no This is me alex that is the copy now the copy is not you It's just a copy now the copy may think it's you when he's running a podcast from somewhere else, but it's not you okay, so all of this is Sort of the a deeper philosophical problem the problem of identity, you know, who are you? We know for example that our bodies are recycled every seven to ten years You're not the same man. You were a decade ago as i'm sure your your friends tell you Okay, come on that that's funny. No, no You you're funny You're a good, you know one of the things that when I when I talk to people About michael schermer and I talked to people are kind of On the other side of the camp the friend of me kind of camp, you know Everybody likes you You're just you're just a good guy or a good guy to talk to you're the other thing is you're a very open guy You know not a lot of people Do these interviews you probably forgot what the show is about which is okay, too But you know you are an open guy you are a guy who's willing to get on stage with Deepak Chopra or whoever it is and hash these ideas out and I think that's why what I was alluding to at the beginning is that I Haven't seen anyone else do it quite like schermer does it and you think there's going to be other people They're going to step in there and do it, but I don't see him on the horizon. So I think it's pretty cool um I'm not in agreement with heavens on earth, but i'm sure glad that you're out there Doing what you do you're in san francisco. You're going full speed ahead trying to Communicate these ideas you're on stage talking about it. What what are you doing for this book and then what are you doing? You know, what's yeah Book events, but actually I'm on stage with Deepak on tuesday in new york city for the intelligent square debate I don't know when you're going to air this, but uh tuesday march 27 It's livestream people can watch it that the resolution is the more we evolve the less we need god Okay, so he's going to argue. I'm not sure what he's going to argue, but I don't know what he's going to argue. You know, I've never a long time listening you and I thought you had a great point, but it was kind of a Weary point about when you were doing the evolution thing with the discovery What discovery institute? Oh, yeah You kind of said look after a while, you know, I'm going to go out there and I'm going to wheel out my stuff And they're going to go out there and they're going to wheel out their stuff And you know, it's kind of predictable not a lot, but you said it in a way that is like truly, you know almost like a Theater actor a stage actor who has to do it still You know, I mean that person came to see Michael Schirmer to see that debate to see that played out And that's important too So it doesn't to mean the fact that people might have heard both sides of this argument before right? Yeah, and so and again, I mean we have to have some epistemic humility You know, we don't even know what we don't know And there's a lot we don't know That we don't even know we don't know about things like consciousness So it's entirely possible that someone like Deepak or yourself or whoever on or or christians talking about The afterlife or or jews or muslims, you know, there's lots and lots of different versions of this out there that I write about um, and you know, I guess you know, one of the one of the appealing things about cryonics would be that That you come back in a thousand years to see what people think then about consciousness black holes or you know, whatever, you know, the science moves on and You know, it's just hard to like we're like fish in the water. You know, we don't even know that the water is there I don't I don't know You know, this is why I like Steve Pinker's point about This question of consciousness, you know the hard problem consciousness It may be that's being phrased in a way That will never be able to answer it the way we're thinking about it Now we need to think about it in some completely different way And that may be the case, you know, there's a group of people called the mysterians Martin Gardner was one of these that you know, there's there's certain mysteries That it's not just that we haven't solved them yet. We just have to you know, improve our technologies of experiments or whatever It's that they're insoluble Like sam sam erison, I disagree on free will he's a he's a strict determinist. I'm a compatibilist I agree we live in a sermon universe, but that we're part of the causal net and we can tweak it and change it Volitionally, but at some point we just run into a brick wall of words, you know, what do you mean by determined? What do you mean by free or volitional or compatibilist or whatever and like for example, I say I said to sam What's it? You know, so we have a we have a an opioid Addiction crisis in the country now You know, it appears that there are some people that really cannot control themselves They just go down a path and they can't stop and they overdose Now I don't have this problem. I know people that are alcoholics My father was an alcoholic. I can have a couple drinks and stop. He couldn't I know people that cannot stop Now what's the if we all live in a determined universe and we're all determined What's the difference between that guy who can't stop and me who can't stop? That he's more determined and I'm less determined. I mean what you know, this is why dan denic calls this degrees of freedom You know, there's certain amounts of things you can control or can't control depending on A lot of different factors. So but at some point I'm I told this to sam and sam says no, no, no, no You're still determined. You're just determined in a different way. Okay, maybe You know, but what are so what do we mean by that word determined? You know, so And we're kind of this with the point dickenstein made that we're We're restricted by the words we use because we have concepts The only way for being you to share our concepts is to talk and use words And the words have certain meanings and maybe you mean something slightly different than what I mean So we have to operationally define the words we're using So when we measure it and I look at it point and you point at it and look we're talking about the same thing That's not always easy to do In science and I think consciousness is especially difficult Uh problem. Anyway, so that's that's my piece there. Good. It's a good piece So again folks, the name of the book is heavens on earth the scientific search for the afterlife Immortality and utopia our guest has been the one and only dr. Michael schermer. Thank you so much for joining me I really do appreciate it Keep up the good work.  You're the skeptic skeptic Somebody's got to do it. Hey somebody, you know, it's like the fact checker said we've got to fact check the fact checker The dr. Seuss who's watching the watchers, right? Okay, buddy. Thank you again. Take care. Yep. Be good