Okay, so we're going to go through five concepts. Dave, you want to come up please? So before NHGRI or any Institute at NIH can publish a funding opportunity announcement that has a set aside of funds associated with it, it must undergo concept clearance in an open or public meeting. Now we use the open session of the council for every funding opportunity, whether it's an RFA that has funds associated with it or not just so our council is aware of all the research programs that we are supporting. So we're going to begin with the LC program announcements for R01, R03 and R21 applications. This is a PAR and Dave Kaufman, program director in genomes and society is going to give the presentation. Thank you. Hello everyone, I'm presenting the division of genomics and societies concept to renew the three ethical, legal and social implications research program funding announcements. We're seeking to renew these current announcements for the R01, R03 and R21 mechanisms which are expiring this July. The purpose of these funding announcements is to continue serving as the main mechanisms to support investigator initiated research on the ethical, legal and social implications of human genetics and genomics which we finally refer to as LC research. Applications to all three of these PARs address four broad areas that surround genetics and genomics. The first is genomics and sociocultural structures and values. The second is genomic research design and implementation. The third is genomic healthcare and the fourth is genomics at the institutional and systems level. Details about each of these areas can be found on the LC research program website and I'll post that link, that links at the bottom of the slide and I'll post it in the chat when I get back to my seat. But I'll also say a little bit more about that fourth area systems in just a moment. As in the past applications that come into these PARs from multi-disciplinary teams are expected and encouraged and applicants can use a single method or mixed methods in response. Depending on their project. Applications can use empirical qualitative and quantitative methods and conceptual legal and normative approaches. The direct involvement of key stakeholders is encouraged where it's appropriate but not required. And we're expecting robust involvement from other NIH institutes and centers based on the conversations we've had so far, which we're very excited about. I did just want to give you a few minor updates that are being proposed. First, just a bit more about the broad research area, genomics at the institutional and systems level. This area will be new to the PARs. It wasn't in the 2019 announcements but it has been represented on our web pages and in our presentations about our research interests since 2021. The area collects and highlights questions from the three other areas and explores the interplay and influences between genetics and genomics and institutions, government systems and other organized stakeholders. For example, we might look at genomic technologies effects on human rights law or how the news media frame and influence genomic research or the role of genomic data used in the courtroom. Those are just a few examples. You can see lots more again on that web page that I'll link to. The second minor update is that as genomic society both continue to change as we've been talking about, we need to bring new viewpoints and expertise to define the LC issues and help address them. So the PARs will explicitly emphasize broadening the wide array of disciplines and lived experiences that are represented among our applicants and grantees. Third, we recognize that successful community-oriented projects may require longer project periods. This could be community-based research or anything where a good deal of community engagement is required. And that may require more time than LC grants typically allow for. So for example, we typically limit R01 applications to four years or less of funding. And as many of you know, a typical R21 lasts for two years. To address the issue that community-oriented projects may need more time, the new R01 PAR will encourage applicants who proposed community-oriented work who anticipate needing a fifth year of support will encourage them to contact program officials prior to submission to discuss appropriate project length and budget which could include a fifth year. For the R21s, we'll be seeking NIH permission that's we're asking NIH permission, not councils. We have to ask NIH. If they will allow us to entertain requests for three-year R21s rather than two-year R21s. Applicants to both the R01 and R21 will be instructed to contact program early on if they anticipate needing an extended project period. And final decisions about the project period and the budgets will be at the discretion of program as they are today. Finally, to improve the understanding and use of demographic population descriptors, for example, measures of race and ethnicity, to improve the understanding and use of those in LC research, applicants are going to be required to propose demographic variables to be collected, to explain the purpose of those variables in their data analysis plans, and to briefly justify that proposed plan. We hope that asking for that information is going to improve the transparency around the use of these variables and improve all of our understanding about how they could, should, and might be used. That is, I'd like to thank my colleagues for their help and guidance, and that concludes my formal presentation. I'd be happy to take questions and discuss the concept with council. Lisa Parker, please. Sure, thank you. And this question may be slightly out of order in the sense it might be better addressed after our next presentation of a concept, but I wanted to relate the two as they both have to do with LC to ask the following question. And the most succinct way is to refer to the second concept clearance, where there's a statement that genomic science and medicine is the established focus of the LC research program. And yet some of the examples that I think you gave when you were elaborating on institutional level and one might say, yeah, institutional and systems level considerations. One might even say genomics and social cultural structures might move beyond medicine. So how is this expansion or expansive understanding going to be negotiated and communicated with potential applicants? Well, Lisa, we've been communicating it for quite some time. I don't think any of these topics are particularly new. And as I noted, the new area really is mostly a result or not mostly, but the questions that we pose as sample questions come from the research questions that we've been posting for years. And so I think the reason that we are emphasizing those interests in the LC pars is because we see, and we saw this in the 2020 strategic plan, the beginning of that plan starts by saying genomics is really not limited to NHGRI anymore. It is all over NIH. We hear questions about the LC of genomics coming from colleagues, various different places. And of course, as genomics, as genomic data are easier to create, other people are using them for lots of different things that are not medical. So we thought it was a more than appropriate time to sort of re-emphasize, I think, and draw attention. And we'll, as we talk about the new pars, we will make it clear that this area is out there and continue to talk about it and try to generate interest among a diverse array of scholars, some of who may not consider themselves LC researchers. I hope that's helpful. Laura. Oh. I need you. So thank you for presenting this and this area of research, I think, is critically important. As I look at some of the LC research, I'm really struck by how quickly we are building our scientific base, but yet how slowly we are implementing our genomic findings. And I'm wondering kind of how you are thinking about that because I think that there's really this disconnect between the two of them. Well, I mean, I don't mean to make light of this at all. It's a great question. I mean, I think some people might say that LC is maybe the reason that there's slower implementation than we might like to see. You know, we sort of joke that some people see LC as the brakes on the Lamborghini and no one buys Lamborghini for the brakes. So, you know, but I think that it can be frustrating and LC isn't just about tapping the brakes and waving our arms and saying no. And we very much intend to re-emphasize the idea that LC is here not just to ask questions, but to help address the issues that are existing so that we can implement in ways that benefit broad segments of the population. Kyle, did you have your hand up? No. Kyle, did you have your hand up? I did. Yeah, just a few comments. First of all, in response to Lisa's question about area, implications not in medicine. I think, you know, it's sort of inherent to our work, even if the NIH viewed health in a very narrow sense, LC is about the implications of the science and the implications don't just, they're not just limited to health. And so anytime we're exploring, you know, what are the downstream effects of the science that's being done, we really need to think about it. It's implications outside of health as well. Let's just sort of, I think, the eye in LC requires that. Yeah, otherwise, Dave, I just wanted to voice my very strong support for what's being proposed for these kind of, you know, slight revisions to the plan about how parts have gone in the past. I think extending the duration of time addresses a major concern that's been expressed, you know, all over the place about the way research, funding accommodates or fails to accommodate community engagement. So I think this is really a great step in the right direction. Our 21s in two years, it's really hard to do anything, you know, in two years. So, and especially if there's community engagement. So I think that's a especially valuable move. I think the, not the expansion, but at least the recognition of systems issues as an important part of LC is a really critical move. I think that's really well thought out as well. Yeah, and so I will just say in response to Laura's point that, you know, there has and continues to be quite a bit of embedded LC research, which I think is the portfolio for the LC program really needs both the embedded effort and the independent effort. Some of the LC work that's about pushing down the gas and not tapping the break happens in that embedded work where you're really helping to solve challenges that this sort of group collaborating together is encountering and having LC folks at the table, both to do original research as part of that embedded effort and also to sort of help address challenges is really a critical role for LC to play in an HGRI's portfolio, but this independent work separate from embedded settings, typically, I mean, most of the parts fund that kind of work is really important to sort of move into new areas and areas where, you know, there's really not embedded work happening yet. So in any case, just wanted to voice my strong support for this renewal. Other questions or comments from council? Okay, can I get a motion to approve the concept? Second, all in favor? Anyone opposed? Anyone wishing to abstain? Thank you very much. Oh, are you abstaining, Judy? I was advised to because I was not here for the formal presentation. Understood, you didn't hear the whole presentation. Okay, that's appropriate for the end part. Right, thank you very much. Okay, thank you, Dave. Thanks so much, everyone. Thank you, council. Nicole, you wanna come up, please?


Here's a look at the Jamaica Colleges starting lineup in goal. They have roll Renton Javon Mills Dylan John a Marley King Jamari howl to hear Lawrence JD Johnson Renson Sayers Jamoy Dennis Malachi Sterling and a Tariq Jones their coach by Davion Ferguson Here's the lineup for Eltham High School their coach Joshua Aitkinson Keddon Clark Antoine McDonald Kevin Clark They are twins Keddon and Kevin Javon Grand Daniel Reed Santana Headley Steven Bull Rashon Linton and Nikki Murphy Jamar Powys their coach by Gregory Allen Romair Francis send things off Jamaica College looking sprightly that header well that missed header from Jaden Johnson showing their prowess Dylan John It's trying to get that one into the back of the net cleared by Clark in the heart of the defense They had a shot that went over the goal of roll Renton was happy to see that go over And that was from the eventual goal scorer Grant another one handled by Renton in goal for Jamaica College Jones Would strike but that was wide breakthrough would come courtesy of It build a play artist orchestrated by Dilla John the man of the match releasing Jibari Howell who then laid it on a platter For a Marley King getting a seventh goal of the season a Marley King the number nine for Jamaica College From point blank range had a good finish HSL in goal didn't have a chance against that one One ill four nil on aggregate at the time the pressure would continue Through Dennis he fired that was saved but not saved effectively Jaden Johnson unhanded to get the follow-up And just tap it home was the most convincing of tap-ins But it was enough to get the job done on the afternoon Jaden Johnson there Getting another goal This season that was all the post from Johnson was looking to Get more but they would get one back Eltham Chavon Grant there in the midst of pain you hear the anguish there getting the touch Raul Renton Unable to pull the clean sheet for Jamaica College Jamaica College though Had more to come in the way of attempts on goal John of course being the main Architect behind many of them And here they'd get a third goal that shot from Jabari Howell Wasn't the most powerful of shots, but the goalkeeper was moving away from it and His hands weak and wet on the afternoon So an assist and a goal for Jabari Howell Good challenge that blocking the danger Good save on that and a Marley King went way high off the mark Giovanni Taylor the substitute had some attempts that one was saved had another one that was weak He really tried Giovanni Taylor, but that was all from our Francis song for today Jamaica College three-one winners They are ten shots on target from 35 attempts. Yeah, they need a lot more accuracy Elton they had one on target from two attempts eight fouls five for Eltham. No yellow cards No red cards at two offsides for Jamaica College only one for Eltham both teams at one corner and of course Joshua Hotsin goal had six saves 80% of the possession with three goals to one Jamaica College confirmed their place in the quarterfinal of the Manning Cup Jenny has the man of the match and here we have the digital man of the match none other than Dylan John Presented by the digital junior brand manager Katie Nwebley Dylan great performance today. This is your third season in the Manning Cup. You are 17 very young What are you looking forward to this season? We just want to go to the finals, you know, always want to bring them the trophy That's the main goal in the quarterfinals. You may play teams like St. George's College What are you looking forward to do you think that your team is ready? You know, we have no fear no matter who comes You know anyone comes with try best do a hundred percent get the job done And do you think that Jamaica College can win the treble this year? We'll make the football talk. All right and now we have the assistant coach for Eltham High coach not the result you don't want it today, but in my opinion your boys put up a fight


Fair fight. Go. Zemez! 4th floor, 6th floor, shot! Shot him for 3. Shot at 2, 5th floor, 7th floor, right? Fair fight.  First call on me! Behind him, behind him. We linked up with B.Co. Can I check that?


Hey guys, Johnny blocks back again, back with another FNAF video. I'm not gonna lie, I completely forgot that this was happening, like I just completely zoned out.  A toky chika, a toky toy chika, a toky jacko chika, because she just got added. Uh, well as you can see, no. No, I'm not gonna lie, I, well I don't necessarily hate the skin, I do think it looks a bit strange. Um, but that's just because of all the textures, like his hat is gone, his nose is gone. I just feel like it's a bit flat and textureless, even with all the, like the leaves and stuff, which... You know, I just, I still don't understand the purpose of this whole skin event right now. And going back to it being Thanksgiving day, why did we not get a chika skin? That is a toky.  I think some skins are very good, right? I love skins that mix things up, that they add brand new things to the characters. I don't like skins that just change the texture of the characters, like this balloon boy skin, it doesn't really add anything new. The sign is still there, yes it does say wrought, but that's basically it. Uh, the balloon's still there, for some reason, would have made, would have made more sense to have it be like a twig, or something kind of like, um, what, would. I don't even remember his name. Wood Forest, Toy Freddy did, like, get rid of the balloon, it doesn't make sense to have it with the whole nature theme, and just like, add something different. Like, if you look at the full model, it's just balloon boy, but he's re-textured with, I can't even tell what it is. Is it dirt? Is it wood? What is it? Is it ground? Is it earth? I just don't know, I don't understand this event, and I'm very upset that we did not get a Thanksgiving skin, because they've done other holidays, they've done, you know, the winter holidays.  Speaking of Halloween though, we did get Day of the Dead Toy Chica, so, you know, it's like, why, and like, St. Patrick's Day, Shamrock Freddy. And I'm sure there's others, I just can't think of them right now, or maybe there's not, I don't know, but my point is, why skip out on Thanksgiving, you know? Oh, I am skipping one. July 14th, Independence Day, America, you know, Freddy Fazbear. Why would you release this on Thanksgiving Day? I just don't understand. I just don't understand. So, I am just going to hop into the game, you know, I just, cause if I keep talking about how much I wish we got a different skin, then people in the comments gonna be just like, oh, you never appreciate what Loomix does for the community. And I do, actually, I have given the game quite a bit of praise, especially when it first released, but the more I play it, the more I realize just how many flaws it has. Oh, and his name is Swamp Balloon Boy, so, yeah, Swamp Thanksgiving, perfect mix. And if you couldn't tell by the hood, I'm in a very chill mood, I just got like, I just got a cat yesterday, he's so cute, I'll put up a video of him right now, he's so cute, he's so adorable. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I haven't made the FNAF news video yet. I haven't recorded, but it was recorded on Monday, and we've got quite a bit more news since then, so I gotta add some segments in. So, we're here at the game, huh, I wanna see this offer, oh, who would've thought? Wow, that math really checks out, great, because the average FNAF fan has $50 in, you know, application money, whatever you wanna use, Google Play Store, Apple, iTunes, whatever. They have $50 to spend in this game, makes perfect sense, Loomix. So, my God! Uh, if they still have not fixed the glitch at the end of fights, my God, I'm gonna lose it. So, Swamp Balloon Boy is our first Balloon Boy skin, somehow I didn't get, um, Boulder Toy Bonnie's profile picture, I don't know why, I swear I, I don't know, I swear I was checking in on the game frequently. Uh, yes, $10 as I expected, hey, at least they're all the same price, God, he looks terrifying, why does he look terrifying? Again, I think it's just because of how round he is, like, there's no hat texture, there's no nose, and like his mouth goes all the way across, it's weird. Notice how I haven't said it's a bad skin, notice how I haven't said I hate the skin, I'm just saying, I think, it looks weird, it looks interesting, it looks creepy, as heck, I will admit, it looks terrifying, especially the teeth in there, I'm just saying, it would've made more sense if we got a Thanksgiving skin. Looks like they added a, um, a third pack here, I don't know which one is the new one, uh, it might be this one, I don't fuckin' know. Look, they haven't even updated their store yet, like, come on guys, it's your anniversary, by the way, it's one year old, from like yesterday I think, so, happy anniversary I guess, uh, when are you gonna fix your game? Oh, look, that, that was Boulder Bonnie's splash screen, why did I get Bonnie's, uh, whatever. You know what man, let's just lure him out here, let's get this over with. Let's see if the game is still bugged, where's his lure, uh, here it is, Swamp Balloon Boy.  If you've seen these videos, you know that's what I do in them, so if you don't like it, just don't watch them.  Oh, hey look, here he is right here. Alright, what's your animation like? You're really small buddy. Alright, he's holding up his balloon because that's what swamp creatures do. So Balloon Boy, he is not that bad, I don't think. His haywire was glitched, I can't remember if they fixed it, I feel like I say that every time I fight this guy. There are different noises, so I appreciate that. Guys look, I appreciate something that they did in the game. Are you happy? Did you smash the like on the video yet? Did you subscribe and ring the bell? Hello. Okay, so he's over here. He is small, Balloon Boy, so I don't look up here, I look down here a bit. He's right here, he's not really moving a whole lot. I also, like, all of the new character additions, they've always had maxed out, the hell, they've always had maxed out like aggression and perception, I think is the other one. But I feel like they're all not that bad. See a different texture, I couldn't tell. For some reason that just looked like normal Balloon Boy. Am I going crazy? He's hanging out over here. Funny Balloon Boy sounds. Oh, hello, hello. So that was my mind playing tricks on me. I don't know why, but he looked like he was just normal skinned Balloon Boy. Skinned Balloon Boy, that's a terrifying sight. Skinned, like how do you skin a turkey? Do you skin a turkey? I don't know. I spatch cocked my turkey today, just like how Mad Pat told me to do in the food theory, guys. He's right here. Oh, there he is. Look at that. Oh, I can not see anything of him, that's great. I feel like that's always the case. It's fixed, it's fit, oh my gosh, they fixed it. Oh my goodness gracious boys, they fixed it. It only took like three weeks. Let's say I get some ports and I get some remnant and that's it. That's great though. Oh, hey look, they remembered it's the anniversary. That's great man, that's great man. I also like how they haven't changed the icon at all for some reason. I guess because it does spoil the surprise, but how difficult would it be to add like a leaf as an icon or like a tree, you know? Oh, hey look, I finally got the splash screen, that's nice. Do I have extra lures of anyone else? Okay, I have a Toy Freddy lure and what about Bouldin' Bion? Okay, I'm gonna fight Toy Freddy, see if we can get anything from him, wherever he is. Here he is, oh, where'd he go? He's right there, he's hiding, he's trying to sneak around me. Yeah, like this guy, Toy Freddy.  He has sticks for his ears, that is what I like. I forget how to play Toy Freddy actually. I was not even paying attention, I was just like chilling. But like with Boulder Bonnie, hello, and Swamp Balloon Boy, it's just a retexture, you know? There's no new additions really, he's over here. Which is why I like Flamethrower Bear Endows so much, is because they change so much about the character with that skin. He has the Flamethrower, of course, he has the welding, welding, wheeling, I don't... Welding, it's welding.   And he's got like a thing on his back, looks like a jet pack. They change so much about him, that's a good skin, I like it. Even Boiler Baby, right? The furnace for a stomach, that's a brand new addition, that's something different about... I thought it bugged there, that's something different about the character. Did I get anything? Ah, damn it. Whatever. Oh, limited time offer, let me see. Wow, five dollars, at least that's kind of reasonable. Yeah, even like Boiler Baby. She's still baby, you know, it looks almost, I'm looking at my poster, it looks almost identical to baby, but at least there's a difference with the stomach, you know, it's a furnace, it's not just a retextured character. And I know, some people are gonna say, but the hat's gone, but the nose is gone, but the sign is different. That's not a change, I mean it is, but like, not really.  But like, at least they were changed slightly. I believe System Aero Toy Bonnie was like one of the first to have particle effects. Vior Toy Freddy has a Vior headset, and High School Toy Chica has the 8-Bit Cupcake. I would not say those are big changes, but at least they look nice, at least the skins look visually appealing.  I don't know, again, I don't really care, it's my opinion.  It's my video, it's my channel, it's my opinion. So, thanks so much for watching. I guess I'll be back next week. Apparently the next event is another winter one, so I guess we're gonna get some winter skins. I don't really know what that means, I also don't know if that's confirmed. Apparently it was in the files, but then again, everyone says everything's in the files.  When in fact, we've been waiting for Funtime Freddy and Lefty for like a year at this point, so yeah, totally legit happening, so thanks for watching, I'll see you later. Gregory, be still. I think she's found us.


This world is fascinating. Alive with diversity. Growing ever more complex. Hightened networks of interaction. Exchange. Translate. Connect. More languages than you can document in the index. First evolving. First dissolving. More cultures than you can count. But this vast canvas of soil and skyscrapers slants ever steeper. The gulf between high and low income yawns ever wider. Believes and identity. Are used to draw lines and divide us. When they could be the fabric that informs and combines us. Yes, diversity can open the door for discrimination. But it also gives us solutions and collaboration. The potential for peace. Sustainability. Communication. A recovery from violence. A recovery from abuse. In all its forms. Let's challenge the inequalities ingrained in our knotted roots. No matter how controversial, undue oppression, political or commercial. No quick fix, no bias tricks. Too many people are at stake. This is the role of researchers. Urgent knowledge to share. Change to make. Migrants and musicians. Farmers and scholars. People are not subject studied. They are partners in research. The problem isn't too many voices. Is that too few of them are heard. This world should have no margins where people lose their rights and say. SOAS is home to the leading research and expertise of today. Don't shy away. From finding truths. Creating solutions. Broaching the debate. Let's unpick misrepresentations. This is about global co-creation and trust. Towards understanding this diverse world. Towards making it more equal and just.


Hey, this is Brett and this 2020 Ram 1500 Crew Cab 5'7' Short Box Big Horn Level 2 is stock number 13035ZB. I am here at Summit Automotive in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, your new and used Ram and light duty truck headquarters. This 2020 Ram 1500 has the 5.7 liter V8 Hemi engine with the e-torque assist. This truck has been fully safety to and inspected by our service shop, has a fresh oil and filter change all the fluids have been checked and topped off per the state of Wisconsin inspection process and this truck is 100% ready to go. I'm going to go all the way around in this video inside underneath, start it up and take a look under the hood in hopes of giving you the most accurate representation of the vehicle as possible. Flame red clear coat is the color and I shoot all my videos in 4K. So if you have HD capabilities on your computer, tablet, smart phone or television, I recommend turning them on now because it is your best way to check out the quality, condition, options and cleanliness of the truck before seeing it in person. As you go down this side, you can see just how nice that body is, the box looks really good, doors all look really great as well, I didn't see any dents, I didn't see any dings, I didn't see any major scratches, very nice and clean. The fender is in excellent shape and if you like the video, you can subscribe to my YouTube channel which is youtube.com slash Summit Auto, click the bell notifications to get updates on the videos I do each and every day. You'll notice the blacked out RAM logo, this is part of the night edition as well as the black step bars and the 20 inch painted black rims. It has Goodyear Wrangler Duratrack 27560R20 tires on here and these tires have right around 60% of the tread left on them. Rim and underbody is exceptionally clean on this truck. Front fenders in excellent shape once again, no dents or dings, you get the blacked out headlight bezels as well as the factory fog lights. Painted front and rear bumper, no major dents or dings on that front bumper and you do get the front bumper parking sensors. Notice the gloss black grille, also part of that night edition and the hood is in fantastic condition, I didn't see any dents or dings on there. Passengers side front fender is in really nice condition too and the passenger side rim, no major scuffs or scrapes on there. Now as you go down this side of this 2020 RAM 1500 take note of how clean that body is, how reflective and mirror like that paint is. I take these HD videos so if you are far away or even if you're close by and you just cannot make the trip down but you're still interested in purchasing the vehicle, you can see the truck, hear the truck, and have confidence in the vehicle that you're looking at. Before you even get here, so when you do get here, there's absolutely no surprises and you can make a smart and informed buying decision from wherever you're at. If this video helps you make that buying decision, let your salesman know that you saw the video, that it was helpful and that Brett sent you. Backrooms in excellent shape and the back tires have just as much tread as the front tires, maybe even a hair bit less or more I should say. You get the rear coil springs in the back which gives your ride a lot smoother ride when it's not loaded up as all the remaining factor exhaust and a very nice and clean under here. Lower rockers all look good and once again you get those nice black painted step bars. Being around to the back of the vehicle, you get the painted rear bumper back here as well, no major dents or dings on that, full towing package which includes the receiver hitch four pin and seven pin wiring. You also get the blacked out chrome looking tailpipe exhaust tips, blacked out four by four and ram and big horn logo, tailgates in really nice shape and it comes with a truck's port by Truxedo soft tonneau cover and that is in really nice shape, no rips or tears and that comes with a nice drop in pender liner bed liner and that is in nice shape and it goes onto the tailgate. That shuts nice and solidly. Coming around to the driver's side once again, the back rim for full disclosure, no scuffs or scrapes on there and this one does come with the capitalist fuel fill which is a really nice feature, never get gas on your hands again. Down the rest of the side once again, very nice and clean, heated mirrors, built in directional signals, blind spot mirrors, inside the big horn level two package gives you the black and charcoal cloth interior, no rips or tears on the seats, power driver seat with lumbar, both these front seats are heated, part of the level two group, all weather floor mats, auto headlamps, tilt, telescopic steering wheel, power pedals, power windows, power locks, power mirrors, you get the cloth bolsters, the wood grain trim on the doors and these mirrors do power fold in, I always like showing both sides so that you know that both sides are working properly. Back seats are just as clean as the front seats, no rips or tears back here, it does have the latch child safety system with three spots for a car seat, power slide in rear window with the built in rear defrost and the seats are in really nice shape, get the all weather floor mat back here, the flat floor which is really nice if you got pets and nice flat place to lay, then you get in floor storage with removable bins for easy cleaning, you could put ice and drinks in there, have too many coolers wherever you go, two USBs, two USB C's and 115 volt 400 watt max plug-in or you could just have extra storage, you don't have to make them coolers, child safety locks in the back doors and the bottoms of the doors all look really good on this truck, we'll hop inside check out the miles, the radio and everything that this truck has to offer on the interior, get the big horn animation there, you can see this one has 14,367 miles you do get the seven inch LCD display, digital speedometer, you can change these corners to read whatever you want, you can see you got the compass there, you can put time, miles a gallon, miles to empty, whatever you want, so that's all configurable, instrument clusters nice and clean, comes with the heated leather wrap steering wheel, cruise controls and gear selector on the right, Bluetooth and information center controls on the left and you do get audio controls on the back of that steering wheel, this one comes with the 8.4 4C radio, AMFM and Sirius XM radio capabilities on here, you have your heated seats, heated steering wheel controls and you can check out your backup camera and see that is an HD backup camera, which I like that they've made them that crystal clear and you can zoom in on your receiver hitch to get hooked up to your boat camper or trailer the first time every time, you also have all your different apps on here, this one also has Android Auto Apple CarPlay where you can project your cell phone to the screen, so while this one does not have the factory navigation system, you can project it to your screen using Waze or Google Maps and displays those up there and then it's like you have Nav right in the screen, so it's a pretty sweet system, we actually did a demo on an 8.4 with Android Auto, if you'd like to check that video out that's in the upper right hand part of the screen, down here you have more tactile volume tune and climate controls as well as your heated seats and heated steering wheel button, 8-speed automatic transmission, your start-stop capabilities, factory brake controller, stability control, tow haul and your front and rear parking sensors, you can turn those off and on, you have two USBs, two USB C's and an aux jack cell phone holder and down here you get another 115 volt 400 watt plug-in, keyless entry with remote start, sliding coin tray and cup holders and the passenger side format and seat are in excellent condition as well, no rips or tears, smells very clean inside this truck and the headliner is in fantastic condition as well, you do get home link buttons for your garage door security systems and lane systems, map lights, power sign rear window button and auto dimming mirror, we'll start it up and take a look under the hood, starts right up, no check engine lights or anything like that and yes we will be putting some fuel in this truck after this video let's take a look under the hood, I would personally like to thank you for checking out the video today, I really enjoy doing the videos when the trucks are this nice it makes my job very easy and enjoyable so hope you enjoyed the video and from this video we've got a good idea of the overall quality, condition options and just how clean and nice this truck is, under the hood you have the 5.7 liter v8 hemi engine with the e-torque assist, if it's got this box you know it's got the e-torque and this truck has been fully safe and inspected by our service shop has a fresh oil and filter change all the fluids have been checked and topped off, there is your emissions sticker and this truck is 100% ready to go so just about as nice as they come on the used side and to see more pictures of this truck or one of other 550 new and used cars, trucks, scvs, minivans, wranglers, halftones, three-quarter tons, one tons, you name it we got to go to that website right there summitauto.com full pictures and descriptions of every single vehicle from two locations all at summitauto.com and if you like to check out more hd videos you can go to youtube.com slash summit auto remember to like subscribe and share on this video and all the videos that you see there click the bell notification to get updates on the videos i do each and every day here at summit automotive in fact in a second you will see a link to subscribe to my youtube channel the upper left the link to more ram 1500 truck videos i've done in the upper right a link to this vehicle on our website in the lower left and a link to one of our latest youtube 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Welcome everybody to your on Brook show on on this. I think it's a it's a Wednesday afternoon And while this is show is taped. We'll be putting it up. I think tonight. So you'll you'll get it on Wednesday I'm really excited about today's show because I'm interviewing I think one of the more important intellectuals of our time somebody who I Agree on a lot of things with which I can't really say about a lot of intellectuals in the world today And mainly what we agree on is the value of human life and the value of progress the value of human flourishing and and and success and prosperity and and a possibility for that and So we're talking today to To Matt Ridley welcome at Hi, everyone. Great to be on the show. Thanks. Those of you who don't know who Matt is and I'm sure there Not many of you out there. He is a who's been a newspaper columnist What for the economist for a long time? Peach Dean biology so a scientist the author of World famous rational optimist Which is how I first discovered I discovered Matt and and really really enjoyed that work and and often use in my talks I use the graph, you know the the graph right over the book and and it's wonderful and And and what we're gonna talk about today really and and I could go on that the biography is long Matt has published many books Including Red Queen and Genome and and many others and Has one of the most watched I guess Ted videos Ted Ted talks ever But I'm gonna skip all the bio. You can find it online It's easy to get what's really important is that he is about to publish a new book how innovation works I understand it's a little delay in publishing it in the UK But that it's coming out in the US next in May and the middle of May correct It comes out on the 14th of May in the US and the UK publisher has Decided to delay publication in order to hopefully get the other side of the coronavirus epidemic And and to give time for me to add a short Afterword about the epidemic good and we'll talk a little bit about that so If you enjoy this interview go out there and pre-order the book there's huge value in pre-orders So don't wait for the book to come out Amazon is there And and I know most of you have lots of time on your hands right now because because you're all hunkered down at home So please go and pre-order the book. So I'm hoping that actually you know This year might be a good good year for book sales because it's one of the few things that we're gonna have time to do Well, I'm a little mixed on that because I hope this Ends quickly, but it but you're probably right because I Dotted in quickly. I think you're right. I think we're gonna be hunkered out for a while Although I'm finding that I'm busy and now You know, I'm busy and now that I then I usually am there's more going on and me too. Actually. Yeah, no It's non-stop, isn't it and you know, and it's a very worrying situation for a lot of people So so I was gonna start off with the question of you know, obviously the rational optimist was this very Positive book about the future of mankind about the present about about how much we have progressed From the past but also how much potential there is in the future how much more there is to be done and to achieve And given what's going on in the world right now.  Yes, I am and the reason I say that it's 10 years since the rational optimist came out in 2010 and every year since then people have said to me Well, are you still a rational optimist in view of what's going on? whether it's a war in Ukraine or a war in Syria or Eurozone crisis or whatever it might be and Of course this particular crisis the coronavirus pandemic is a lot worse than most of those and is a real shock to the World economy and potentially a horrific episode in terms of its death rate and the effect it has on society through that very very frightening for a lot of people and And yet You know, I've argued that a lot of the threats that face us are Defeatable are beatable and I think this is too it so happens that The world of viruses has come up with a Devastatingly clever combination of contagiousness and lethality among old people certainly Which the contagiousness enables the virus to spread among people who are not showing symptoms and then the lethality among older people Is sustained by that spread so this is a very very dangerous virus are not minimizing the effect of it and it comes after a series of What you might call reassuringly disappointing Potential pandemic so things like SARS and bird flu and swine flu and even Ebola, which was Lethal to a lot of people but could not apparently escape from relatively small areas Perhaps gave us too much comfort that this Idea of a pandemic virus was not a huge threat But if you look at back at HIV in the 1980s, we clearly are a sitting duck as a very large population For these viruses and we should have spent a lot more time preparing for it But we will get through this. We have modern medicine We sequence the genome of this very quickly and I suspect that we will work out how to prevent people dying I don't know how to prevent people spreading the virus and so on So when we come out of the other side of this, we will be able to resume civilization This is not going to be the end of the world and just to say why I'm still a rational optimist In the ten years since I wrote that book and I wrote it in the middle of a very deep recession In the ten years since There has been Spectacular progress in the retreat of poverty now less than eight less than eight percent of the world lives in extreme poverty That number was something like 60 percent when I was born. That's incredible child mortality almost any measure you can think of has been getting better and What really excites me is that those numbers have been getting getting better For the poorer people of the world much faster than for the richer people of the world So global inequality is being going down just to give you an idea of that The income of the average Ethiopian has doubled in the last ten years The income of the average Italian has gone slightly backwards in that time So Ethiopians are much poorer than Italians, but they're catching up with Italians And that's a good thing as far as the world is concerned It would be nice if Italians were getting richer faster, too But that isn't the case and of course Italy is now at the epicenter of a particularly vicious pandemic And and but even even in the West where maybe incomes are now rising fast or not at all in some cases I'd say standard of living in quality of life is increased partially because of the kind of innovations you talk about in the book the technology the iPhone the Availability the fact that we can hunker down today and we have access to every movie ever made Through a through Netflix and things like that access to music access to all these things access to books Which we don't have to go to bookstore to buy because we can just download them off from Amazon Which is just stunning in terms of what you thought 20 or 20 years ago just 20 years ago The idea would have been stunning. So absolutely just look at us I mean, I'm sitting in a closet in my house in northern England You're sitting in Puerto Rico in your house and we're talking on an extremely high quality line and without much fear of being interrupted or of the signal being corrupted and That wouldn't have been true five years ago, let alone 10 by video I mean you and I still remember long-distance phone calls, right? Well, and which we didn't make because they were too expensive I remember when I first moved to the US I would never call my parents because they who in Israel because it was too expensive You couldn't afford it and today nobody thinks twice about video coming across the world essentially Costless, I mean that is extraordinary It's the plummeting cost of things that really drives home the price LED lighting would be another example of something that's come in within the last 10 years Unpredicted unheralded the results of an innovation by a Japanese professor 20 30 years ago But now we can get white light or tunable light out of LEDs uses far less electricity than the preceding technologies and Is an is yet another step in the incredible decline of the cost of lighting? I mean that's my favorite example National optimism is is that you basically have to work for a third of a second these days on the average wage to earn an hour of light Well back in 1800 you had to work for six hours to earn that much light from a candle on the average wage That's the the sort of improvement. We've seen in technologies over the last couple of centuries And and of course as you point out what that light provides to all of us from the poorest to the wealthiest is the ability to actually Have a life after it's dark actually read books actually have leisure time after dark I mean, it's it's just that little improvement in human life is Immeasurable really yeah, and of course, I'm not saying everything's getting better or that everything will necessarily go on getting better in fact, I think one of the Important things to say is that people sometimes say that this is a Panglossian attitude But that's completely wrong. Dr. Pangloss was somebody who said the world was perfect and could not be improved I'm saying exactly the opposite that good as this world is. There's no reason. We can't make it a heck of a lot better For not just some people but for everybody So it's it's about Staring up people to be ambitious about improving the world Rather than staring up people to be complacent about how the world has improved and about the conditions that make it possible For the world to get better In those conditions they point and we'll talk about a little bit about that when we talk I talk about the book So let's turn to the book how innovation works as the title. It's again available for pre-order on Amazon right now You make a distinction between Invention and innovation and and I'd like you to a little bit explain what that is and and what differentiates invention and inventors from innovation in an innovators well a Lot of the people who who transformed our lives people like Thomas Edison or Jeff Bezos to choose people from two different eras We're not actually inventors of anything new I Mean in Edison was to some degree, but not really I mean that lots of other people invented the light bulb Edison perfected it and model a point He made it reliable. He made it affordable. He made it Work well He made it reach lots of people and Bezos was the same with online retail if you like and so my point is that What really changes the world is not coming up with a new device But making that device available to everybody and that's a much harder job often than coming up with a new device in the first place And yet we often don't recognize that we don't reward it In fact, if you look at the patent system or the Nobel Prize system or anything like that It rewards the guy in the ivory tire who comes up with the original idea Much more than it rewards the person who puts in the the perspiration. I mean Edison had this famous quote Invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration So what I mean by innovation is taking a new idea and turning it into something that actually changes people's lives rolling it out and the The focus of my book is very much on that and I show that the stories we tell about inventions are often Kind of misleading because they try to pull out one hero at the start of the story as the Inventor and in fact when you look more closely he was already reliant on the work of other people before him or she and Then a lawful lot of work had to be done after them and it's that it's the whole process of Gradually turning an invention into an innovation that changes the world. So for example, the Wright brothers Invented flight. I think they are inventors But if you look at them closely what they did was Incremental inch by inch solving each of the problems by drawing on the work of other people By studying the by doing a lot of trial and error trial and error is absolutely crucial to this process a lot of error And eventually they got airborne and then the whole Technology was taken up by other people and gradually improved until we had reliable Flight of the kind that we're all used to today. So it may it's a mistake I think to think of invention as the key aspect of Change in the world Innovation is is really the thing To what extent You differentiate between the innovators Businessmen entrepreneurs are those are those are those concepts related or those ideas? I mean the innovators typically businessman. Are they typically entrepreneurs? Yes, on the whole the innovators that I'm writing about are people who are working Running their own businesses and changing the world that way. Yeah, but there are exceptions Yeah, so Let me give you an example One of my favorite stories in the book is the insecticide treated bed net for defeating malaria in Africa and I actually tried to track down the origin of this very simple technology because Estimates show that this technology alone is responsible for about 70% of the decline in malaria And it was the adoption of this technology particularly by the Gates Foundation around the year 2003 That turned the curve on malaria malaria was going up until that point malaria mortality. It's been going down since So I wanted to know Where did this technology come from and I tracked it back to one very good experiment done in Burkina Faso in 1983 by two French scientists and some Burkina Faso scientists, which was very systematic and they they they just They very cleverly Set it up so that they could measure every they could count every single mosquito that came into a series of 36 huts and How many of them got a blood meal and how many of them didn't how many left the hut? How many died, you know that kind of thing and they found that a mosquito net was helpful a Mosquito net with insecticide on it was even more helpful and a mosquito net with insecticide on it But tears in it was just as good as one without holes in it and this was a crucial breakthrough because it was Really the insight was that you know, you can't keep a mosquito net intact in normal conditions in African life for very long, but that doesn't matter if it's got Interst if it's got insecticide on it and so these guys never made a penny out of it They didn't set up a business. They weren't entrepreneurs. They were working for the public good But I think of them as innovators Absolutely, and What's interesting is you mentioned that people don't always respect the innovators and indeed if they're businessman If they make money at it, they're often denounced for for the yes, and that is a That's very frustrating is that you know somehow it's seen as as kind of a bad thing If someone makes a fortune out of making the world better, but a lot of the people who drove down the price of something You know the price of steel was driven down by Carnegie and he was vilified as a robber baron We can be just today. Oh Yes, the way he ran Microsoft Yeah, yeah So in terms of what makes great innovators I thought so first, I mean the stories are fantastic the way the book is structured is you have Several chapters early on in the book that just tell the stories in a number of different major industries And then you kind of summarize the conclusions or what what what we can learn from those stories Which I think is a terrific way to structure a book the stories are amazing and And but certain characteristics of these people start coming out when you read story after story after story There's something about innovators. There's different than people who don't innovate and and so I'm curious what you think some of those are I mean, it struck me that I mean, I love the story about lady mary And and maybe you can tell that story briefly and what an independent woman she was at an era where It must have been very difficult to be an independent woman in the sense of the social The social pressure. I mean she was independent in every aspect of her life. It seems yes This is lady mary workley montague in the early 18th century in england who was the daughter of a duke and She married another lord and you know, so she's she's not a Humble person at all But she is the Key person in the story of the innovation that is inoculation that is effectively what we now call vaccination And she went with her husband to constant in opal who he was the ambassador there And while she was there, she got to know Turkish women in harems and things and she discovered that they had this way of dealing with smallpox And she had seen her brother die of smallpox. She had seen Many famous people in the uk dive smallpox It was a terrifying disease at the time and she didn't want her children to die And it had scored her as well, right? And and she had survived smallpox herself and come out scarred and lost a lot of her beauty And so she comes back to the uk and says look, please please please try this thing. It works really well in turkey in istanbul And she was denounced she was uh attacked for this Terrible pseudo scientific idea that you actually give people Deliberately a small dose of smallpox from someone who survived the disease And that way, um, they become immune. I mean come on. Can you think of anything more dangerous? But she proselytized this so she's not the inventor We don't actually know who the inventor was it probably wasn't even in turkey. It probably came there from china But um, uh, the she but she does spread that spread the word And then later in the century edward jenna picks it picks it up and turns it into vaccination Which is really the use of a of a different virus a cowpox to protect you against smallpox And you know, not not quite so dangerous as it were And of course, this is a very germane story right now when we're thinking about how to develop a vaccine for um Corona virus And it's surprising in a way how slow we still are at developing viruses That work against these diseases. That has been a bit of a shock. I think to those of us in the last Few weeks discovering how despite all our incredible advances in molecular biology and genetics We haven't been able to speed up the process of vaccine development nearly as much as we would like Which is a reminder that we need more innovation in the world not less Yep, absolutely. Absolutely more freedom to innovate more freedom to innovate more emphasis on the real threats And this one is a is obviously a real threat. I mean what struck me about that story is is that She elopes She she uh, she she's hanging around with with women in a harem She is she goes to london and she stands up to the authorities at the world society And and and she prostitizes. I mean, this is an independent. She's an awkward woman.  She's and she You know, and she can be maddening people say she's infuriating She quite quickly gets very bored of the husband. She eloped with he's a dull diplomat So, oh, you know, it's a wonderful story But but what what what seems to go through all of them is they're all they all independent thinkers They have to think differently. They they they and they stand up against naysayers because every innovator Has the naysayers and they're always there in every one of the stories Yes, I found this wonderful quote from William Petty, who's almost the founder of economics. He's a six 17th century polymath extraordinary man, actually um one-time professor of anatomy inventor of economics land speculator um, all sorts of things and and He he tried to be an inventor and didn't really succeed. He was very angry about this people didn't take up his He's rather second-rate inventions And he said every man who comes up with something new has to run the gaunt loop of all petulant wits Who try and drag down his idea and it is incredibly true? I mean all the stories I tell, you know You had to be strong If you'd come up with a new idea that you wanted to change the world with Everybody was going to tell you why it doesn't work and not many people were going to Let you get away with uh arguing that it was going to work. So you had to be awkward that said Later in the book I tell the story of somebody who is the very opposite of awkward but is a great great Uh innovator and that's gordon moore the person behind moore's law Who is a key part of the whole story of the transistor? And he's just a nice guy and he never leaves his home state of california and he doesn't Really rock the boat? He just gets on with it. So it's you don't have to be awkward. You can be a nice guy too. Yeah and all of all of these people are I mean the thinkers and their learners because you mentioned you always build on other people's knowledge I mean that's all human knowledge is like that in any field and They're they're constantly trying to learn they're constantly incredibly curious that the people who are always looking out there out You know outside to discover new knowledge and figure out how to apply it Which is which is fast, but but I think They're also open to trial and error. Oh, of course I use this phrase again and again in the book because it seems because because if you ask them You know, if you ask Jeff Bezos or or anyone else, what's the secret? Try lots of things fail often fail fast, you know Um, it doesn't matter failure is not is not a is just an incentive to go on to greater success Um, uh, henry forward said something like that Um, uh, it's it's very interesting how important this whole process of being prepared to experiment is Um, uh, you're not going to solve this problem by thinking it through And coming up with a perfect design at the first attempt. There's a wonderful, uh, sort of Contra, uh, you know, sort of counterpoint of this which is uh a man named samuel langley Who was an absolutely brilliant astronomer who decided that he could invent the first airplane and he, uh He insisted on keeping all his ideas secret. He Designed everything from scratch. He got a huge government grant for it from the united states he was head of the spesonian institution and he, uh, um Finally set it all up for the first demonstration of this thing that was definitely going to work Um, uh in december 1903, which is a key date you'll notice in a minute and it leapt up to the air Stalled crashed and fell into the water pretty well right next to where to taken off And destroyed his reputation overnight whereas 10 days later And a few hundred miles away in north carolina the right brothers were doing it very differently They were trial and error. They tried things They didn't work. They tried them again and they didn't work. They they used they knew how to develop theories too You know, they use wind tunnels and so on but experiment after experiment Yeah, and it's important not to I mean trial and error doesn't is not anti thinking. It's the contrary. It's the try you learn from it Correct you because I know a lot of people who do trial and error never learn and therefore and that's true Politicians for example, you know, they try the same thing over and over again, and they never learn from the You must try a different thing every time. I mean I I quote this fact many times in the book because it's just so startling to me Edison was trying to find the perfect plant material to make a filament of a light bulb out of And he eventually hit on japanese bamboo, which turns out to be perfect He tried six thousand different plant materials before he got to that That's amazing So so so it's it's kind of trial thing Trial error think trial error think trial. I mean that's the way that's I think the way any any innovation ultimately works um And they work really hard and they're really really committed or at least almost all of them, right? I mean it doesn't happen easily uh It in the end a common theme is these people are obsessives. They they work all night. They work all day They they work for months on end. They forget to eat, you know um People who change the world often have that characteristic and it towards the end of the book I ask why is china doing so much more innovation than the rest of the world at the moment And I say well, they have this 996 philosophy 9 a.m. To 9 p.m. Six days a week Nobody does that in the west anymore And they did used to I mean edison demanded inhuman hours of work from his employees, you know, that they Dropped exhausted some of them because he made them work ridiculous hours And uh, you know, it's the same with uh, you know, one of my heroes from my part of the world George Stevens and the man who invented the railways and the steam engine steam locomotive um Just ridiculously diligent. Um, he and his son were just non-stop trying things and trying things and and never giving up So uh, the the lesson There is that we do depend on these people. They're extraordinary in one way But they're not extraordinary in another because all they have to do is prepare to work hard and try lots of things and be open-minded. These aren't These aren't Genius, you know, you don't have to be super clever. You just have to Put in the elbow grease I think they have to be clever in a particular way. So they're not clever and maybe in the traditional way we measure clever, but You know, you make the point that that if Jeff Bezos doesn't do it somebody else would do it but Even if somebody else would have to have very similar characteristics to a Jeff Bezos Different people than than many of us I I think they have a they have a different way of looking at the world in a commitment that most people just don't have Yes, but but I do want to just stress this Inevitability point of some innovations because I think it is important If you think about the early 1990s, the most important innovation is probably the search engine Sergei brinn and uh larry page come up with a very good search engine. They call it google They sweep the the pool and end up becoming extremely rich and successful Uh, if they hadn't done that would we have no search engines? No, of course not We would have them there were search engines before them.  There were probably a thousand or thousand nobody actually thought google would be the winner No, indeed. And and so if Sergei brinn never meets larry page We don't end up in a different world. We don't use the word google probably, but we don't end up in a different world So and and you know, and I when I think of how often I use search engines today It's pretty well every day. I think so they they are an incredibly important innovation and they're kind of the obvious way to make money out of the internet is to Advertise a long side search. Okay So did anyone see that coming? No Nobody you you search in vain in the 1980s Or 1970s or 60s for anybody in the entire world of computers to saying, you know, once we network these computers The really interesting thing is going to be set to set up set up software programs that searched every everybody's computer to find things Nobody nobody comes up with this. So why is Innovation so blindingly obvious in retrospect and yet so very difficult to see in prospect In fact brinn and and page didn't even think they were inventing a search engine They thought they were cataloging the internet. Yep. Yep as most search engines at the time it was about cataloging It's about cataloging but you see You know, some people would do the cataloging and then not pick up on there's a business opportunity here But not but some people see it. They see once once it becomes obvious to them They run with it. Not everybody does that. I I still think there's a unique genius to the innovators And and I'm not saying they wouldn't be others who would do it I'm just saying there's a there's a group among us who can do that and most people just can't It's not that if some It's not if I worked harder I would be able to to do what some of these guys do. It's not that's not the issue They show you're in a particular way. Are you sure? I am I actually am And and I I did want to pick up on a point you made earlier. I was I mean, you know about trial and error I think one of the things about failure one of the things that makes silicon value unique one of the things that makes That culture unique is their willingness to fail And and you know race the embracing of failure and the willing to learn from failure not failure for the sake of learning but You know, Steve Jobs gets fired from apple starts a computer company. Nobody's ever heard of And then lands up at apple learns takes everything he's learned from his past failures and creates one of the most successful businesses in human history But that takes failure in order to to achieve You can write the history of amazon as a as a story of Repetitive failure. I mean they got a lot wrong Um, they got the they invested in a bunch of companies in the dot-com boom nearly all of which went bust They they lost a ton of money on toy retailing. They they you know again and again They made tremendous mistakes and bezos is the first to admit that Um, uh, he's always there's people to do it. He encourages you have to keep swinging and eventually you hit one out the park And uh, so I think that the the really smart people are the ones like bezos who realize that That that that's that that failure is only another word for to try again as it And and yet You know the danger of course then is that you get a theranos You know theranos is a is a company that that modeled itself on apple Elizabeth Holmes saw herself as steve jobs She emulated in many all sorts of ways and she believed in fake it till you make it which is a traditional silicon valley Sort of idea that that you know, even if you haven't quite been able to make a product yet announce it and then And then you've got to produce it And it didn't work. I mean it turns out microfluidics cannot benefit from miniaturization to the same degree that Uh transistors do you know transistors have this amazing property that the smaller you make them More reliable they get as well as cheaper That's not true of blood samples the smaller the blood sample you take the harder it is to to diagnose the disease um and so theranos got deeper and deeper into um Covering up their errors and their failures and eventually were exposed as having Really been making it up all along And the company failed and and you know there was a lot of hype around that so Just because somebody's failing doesn't mean they're going to succeed. Absolutely Absolutely So I learned of a new law when I read your book, you know called amma amma amma's law About hype and and it reminded me a lot of what happens in silicon valley regularly kind of the the cycle of Of adoption and and hype around so tell us what what the law is and how it applies to kind of the the Maybe the dot-com or or some of the other innovations in in recent times Yeah, I'm rather proud of digging this out because the the the the the wording is We underestimate the impact of innovation in the long run, but we overestimate it in the short run We expect too much of an innovation in the first 10 years We don't see nearly as big a deal as it's going to be in the next 10 years and uh That phrase has been around a lot and a lot of people have been saying it for years And it often got Attributed to Arthur C. Clarke And I tried to track down who did actually first say that and it became clear that it's a guy called roy amara who was a futurologist and computer scientist in silicon valley in the 1960s And I got in touch with some of his colleagues to find out when he first said it and nobody quite knows They just know he was saying it by the mid 60s Um, so I'm not the the person to to discover that he said it But I think I have rescued his reputation because on the whole he was going to get lost to history without somebody calling the law Amara's law after him And I think it's a very important insight because when you think about it This cycle this hype cycle as I call it Characterizes a lot of technologies so the internet In in the late 1990s, it's possible to argue that the internet is disappointing That we've been promised more than we're getting That where is e-commerce that you know There's not that much people want to do on the what's the point of this rather ridiculous thing You know that a lot of people have tried to start online businesses has been a dot-com bust Um, you know the first 10 years can be said to be a failure 10 years after that Would you say that no quite the opposite so there's a sort of There's a sort of concave curve here that things Just disappointing to start with and then they they shoot upwards Did that happen with things like you know mix? I mean think did that happen with things like automobiles and railroads? Oh very much so Probably on a different time scale, but the Liverpool to Manchester railroad in 18 28 I think was it 1830 anyway, it's thereabouts Is an extraordinary moment and everybody's going you know the prime minister's there for the opening It's a big deal and this is the it's a it's a you know Whatever it is a 35 mile rail rail road between two cities and and trains are going to go 20 30 miles an hour This is ridiculous and everyone's incredibly excited about it. And what happens not very much actually Yeah, and then in the 1840s you get a railway share boom And suddenly there is an enormous Stock market explosion of people investing in railway shares just like the dot-com boom of the 1990s And an awful lot of people go bust a lot of it fails But you end up with an enormous network of railways being built all over the world as well as all over britain So I think you can see the same phenomenon and In the early 1900s, you know, you've got all these experiments with internal combustion engine vehicles Which are all kind of disappointing and you know, they Sort of work, but they don't make anyone much much money and you know diesel kills himself because he Because of his debts and you know that kind of thing and and yet Henry Ford and people like that come along and say You know what? We can make this thing cheap enough so ordinary people can buy it and that's when it really takes off. Yeah So you make a point in the book about also differentiating science from innovation and or the relationship between the two So most people think in a linear fashion. There's science Then there's evasion and you you're arguing that there's much more of a back and forth that that the knowledge Transmission goes in both direction. Can you give some examples of that? Yes, um I think in in fact, if you look at the history of people who've discussed this Almost everybody agrees that it's a mutual relationship. It's not a linear relationship and yet politicians and journalists and Commentators are all assuming that the point of science is to produce technology which produces applications And we fund science in this boring way We say look the any reason you're allowed to be a scientist is because you might come up with a tool at the end of it Well, that's a bit unfair. What about black holes? What about, uh, you know, um, the geological time, you know Can't we study those we don't have to come up with a technology as a result of them? I think science is is a fantastic flourishing of human Creativity and it shouldn't be At demanded of it that it produces technologies because very often technology comes before science The science of thermodynamics came out of the steam engine rather than vice versa And indeed even something like dna Which you think of as pure science But actually what funded that x-ray crystallography of biological molecules that led to the discovery of the structure of the dna The first work was done by that was funded really by the textile industry Because it wanted to understand the structure of wool which meant looking at proteins And then they got to look at dna instead and the first brilliant photograph of the structure of dna We now know it was taken in leads um In a institute funded by the textile industry so and then much more recently just in the last, um 10 years or so, um We've had the discovery of crisper gene editing, which is this extraordinary new technology in very precise editing of genomics and That comes partly out of the yogurt industry because it turns out that The yogurt industry has a problem which is that the bugs it relies on sometimes get sick And the reason they get sick is they catch viruses and these viruses Some of the bugs are better at at resisting the virus is than others And some of the scientists working for some of the yogurt companies are investigating why the bugs get sick sometimes The bacteria gets sick more than others some bacteria gets sick more than others And they investigate this strange Genomic Sequences that have been found palindromic sequences that spell it spell the same message backwards um They find these in bacteria which have been suggested as possibly part of the immune system of the bacterium And then they realize That these sequences can be used because these are these are homing on in on particular sequences in the virus to try and Chop up the virus these can be used to home in on sequences in human dna or plant dna In order to do precise editing techniques. So the the technology of crisper doesn't come out of Pure research there's pure research along the way But it comes out of surprisingly practical applied research So often science is the daughter rather than the mother of technology and that's not to downplay it I think that's a very important role Yeah, you you've mentioned now, you know a number of times kind of the the government has funded this or the government funded that and This idea that that industry can fund science is is unpopular today And you have a section in the book where you talk about government funding of science and and the idea that You know, I hear this a lot when I give talks and I'm talking about the wonders of capitalism and the wonders of markets And people say and I use my iPhone a lot as an illustration of the progress we've made and this beautiful I I usually show the iPhone I'll do now and I say what do you think this would look like if the government produced it and everybody laughs But then somebody somebody will stand up and say yeah, but all the technology in that iPhone All the technology was actually funded by the government, right? um, and you have a wonderful little section about Uh, is it true that we wouldn't have an internet without the government and we wouldn't have all these things without government funding of science Yeah, and and I don't think it is true. I mean, I think I think this misreads it hugely sure there is government does fund a lot of science it funds a lot of technology to And uh, given that it takes 40 percent of our income and spends it on something I'm glad it spends some of it on innovation. It would be a shame if it didn't But does it get more bang for the buck than the private sector? No, I don't think it does And if you think about the iPhone, yes, there are important Insights that came out of government funded laboratories, including the internet itself, which came out of DARPA funding But DARPA was a program that used private sector contractors as well. So it's not exactly a pure status thing And you know the plasma screen came out of a PhD somewhere, but other things came out of private Research too. It's very much and also this idea that that it goes back to the to an original public sector funded project right at the beginning is is once again Confusing the inventor with the innovator, I think and it is saying that it's the person at the top of the chain who counts Actually, no, it's the people halfway down who make it something affordable and reliable and and and available And if government was so great at funding At causing innovation. Why is government itself? So uninnovative, you know, why does why does congress look exactly the same as it did 250 years ago or parliament where I sometimes work You know actually on the whole Most of these things happen In you know, it is a bit of both. So for example fracking the shale gas revolution There's an argument out there that this came about as a result of Public research and there was a lot of publicly funded labs got involved But they got involved at the behest of industry which said we've got these problems. Can you help solve them for us? And and you know, so I and actually it misreads it to think of that as as a public funded thing So it's important not to Get this out of proportion. There seems to be a tendency out there to sort of want To credit government with more than it deserves in this area And you know back to Samuel Langley the Failed inventor of flight versus the Wright brothers the private sector Successful inventors of the flight in the UK. There was an extraordinary Controlled experiment if you like with airships in the 1920s It was decided at that time that heavier than Aeroplanes were never going to be able to carry enough passengers across oceans And so what was needed was big airships that could could transport people across the oceans And so the UK government which obviously because there was a very big empire wanted to develop long distance travel Decided that it would put a lot of money into developing airships for transcontinental Flights or transit trans oceanic flights. I should say and they hatched their bets They did a private project and a public project the private project came in early Under budget and flew to Canada and back. It was called the r100 without mishap The r101 which was the public project was late over budget over engineered And crashed After flying across the channel on its way to India. It still hadn't got beyond northern France killing 48 people So you couldn't have a great, I mean, you know, if you've got to if you're praising government for being better at it, you've Explained stories like that. Yeah, I mean one of the things I learned was interesting One of the things I learned from that story in the book Was that never should one of my actually one of my favorite authors that I really enjoy his books Works on that project and walked on the private side of it and he of course had Veneration in his book for innovators and engineers and yes, I mean it It was one of his novels have heroes were engineers, which is a lot of fun. That's where it comes from. Yeah So So yes, I mean, I I think one of the points you make in the book Which I which I loved was look innovation was happening in the 19th century when government wasn't spending any money on science Any money on this stuff? They were basically doing what I believe government should do and limit themselves to it protecting us and And maybe we're covering from wars or or fighting Particularly true in in Britain and America Because in Germany and France government started spending money on science quite early but Which countries have the best progress in innovation before that it's actually Britain and America And America in particular very little funding of Academic research before the Second World War Yep, and yet one could argue more innovation back then Higher economic growth certainly back then and then even we have today Also related kind of the politics of innovation You make the point of That you need a a political structure that's fragmented to allow for innovation How much do you think it's the fragmentation per se? Versus, you know, what you really need is freedom freedom to fail or freedom to Invest in crazy ideas freedom to come up with ideas and not get be put under house arrest like LAO Or an authority tell you it's it's just not theirs. Is it really just freedom on whatever scale? Yes, I think that's probably right because One of the points I make is how bad empires always are at innovation Look at the Ottoman Empire or the Roman Empire or most of the Chinese dynasties Actually, they produce very little in the way of innovation China's fertile period of innovation comes in when it's fragmented politically Europe's likewise when it's city-states rather than one big empire And America of course is the exception which Confirms this rule if you like because although it's a great big Unified country it's also a series of laboratory states So in that sense fragmentation seems to be important But the point about fragmentation is freedom That innovators like Gutenberg who invents printing in Europe Which is banned in the Ottoman Empire for another 300 years or something Gutenberg moves around between these little statelets until he finds one That is prepared to let him do his experiments And develop his technologies. So what fragmentation gives you is somewhere freedom It keeps the torture freedom alive somewhere Because freedom to move from one Uncongenial regime to another and you know most regimes Put a lot of their energy into preventing innovation. Yep, we forget this but You know it it It it's so obvious when you think about it That most businessmen or whatever you might call them in in previous eras Have a vested interest in the status quo and do not like disruptive innovators coming in and changing things And i'm sorry to say that that's exactly what the european union has become Which under the european commission in in recent years and i show this very clearly with a number of examples in my book A very very good place for crony capitalists to lobby to get rules in to prevent the emergence of new disruptive innovators Yeah, and and so really regulations and i mean you talked about the right brothers and Edison I mean they couldn't do what they did Under kind of the regulatory environment in which we live today. I mean there's so many Restrictions and you know you mentioned hard work. They couldn't demand they workers work this hard That's why it has to happen in china because of a variety of labor laws that exist today where Where you can't you have to pay overtime or double time triple time Uh, you have to have certain, you know, everybody has to weigh goggles and everywhere has to Has to behave in particular regimen away now some of that Make sense for businesses and they adopt it anyway, but the more govern regulates Does that harm regulation? I mean that harm innovation? I mean you give the example of nuclear energy and you talk about sometimes safety regulations make us less safe Which I thought was yes. No, no that this is a really good point. Which is if you know, why does nuclear power stall in the 1980s and and and and basically go nowhere after that And the answer is not really because people are that scared of it. Um, it's because in response to uh activists protesting against it It has brought in so much in the way of safety regulation that it has become incredibly laborious to build a nuclear power station and so much pre-approval of regulatory Authorities has got to take place that you can't then change the design halfway through And that means that you can't do trial and error and that means you can't find ways of Reducing the cost and so the cost just goes up and up and up And actually there's quite a nice sort of calculation that the amount of material that goes into a nuclear power station per kilowatt of output Has gone up vastly and the amount the material that's gone up most is paper Which is not of course making it safer. It's just effectively giving people Income out of this process So nuclear power has been cut off from the source of Cost reduction, which is trial and error now admittedly you don't want error in nuclear power stations But if you if you then look at what happens What happens is that because you can't build new designs people stop building new plants and they keep old ones open longer And Fukushima was a very old design which should have gone offline before it did And it had a really stupid design flaw in it, which is the pumps to um Pump any seawater or rainwater out we're in a basement where they got flooded, you know This is this is not clever And and I thought it was interesting that section where you also talk about the fact that Big part of the problem was that governments incentivize the building of the early nuclear power plants They in a sense for got us to build them earlier than we would have If we just let the market work and the market innovate and use the trial and error. Yeah, this is my speculation We were in such a hurry to get nuclear power up and running and we basically did it as an offshoot of the military project Yeah, um that in the 50s and 60s we we settled on one design the light water reactor Which isn't a great design really because it's got some inherent Risks basically the coolant um Or you know water can turn to steam and then its properties are very different It's not so good at cooling things and it's liable to explode and uh, so um You know had the had there been Less of a sort of rush to get this out there in the 50s and more of a sort of Let a thousand flowers bloom and see which designs then we've probably have ended up with much more inherently safe molten salt reactors that would have needed much less in the way of extra bells and whistles to make them safe and would then have spooked people much less and it would have become a reliable and ubiquitous technology That's a little bit spec speculative on my part, but I think there's some arguments now It makes sense. Uh, so I got two final questions. I've already taken up almost an hour of your time. Um One is let's connect to rational optimists to to uh, how innovation works um, I mean to some extent I you're optimistic about the future because innovators Can innovate the innovators are making the world a better place for all of us So how optimistic are you that? We we maintain and create political systems that allow For that innovation to flourish and and lead to a better world Well, I'm not quite as optimistic because I would like to be but it like that uh, my rational optimism expressed in the book the rational optimist 10 years ago um Is based on what's happened till now But when I survey the world now as I do in last chapter of how innovation works I come to the conclusion that we're in an innovation famine today And that may seem strange at a time when your iPhone is being replaced by a new model every two years or whatever it is But actually if you think about things like transport, they're not changing at all fast these days not compared with what our grandparents experience when they you know, they saw in the invention of motor cars and airplanes and things like that and um uh, and and then if you look at You know, what big companies are doing they're turning over less frequently. They get they're dying less frequently There's you know, they're more stable now they they're um They're sitting on huge piles of cash because they can't think what to spend it on They're not being disrupted as often by Incomers They're better at lobbying governments to get themselves privileges to keep rivals out And big big companies are really bad at innovation. I mean that's been shown again and again um And so I look at a world and I think with various things like The way we've tightened up intellectual property to make it a hindrance rather than a help to innovators the way we've used um Occupational licensing the way we've used The tax system etc. We aren't encouraging innovation enough Now luckily China has kept the flame burning But China is an authoritarian regime. You know, this is this is a state owned country and That's not a comfortable one to rely on when we Know as we do that freedom is crucial to innovation So I'm a little bit worried that we may be killing the goose that lays the golden eggs Yeah, we definitely share that worry So to kind of close the circle we're in this crisis today. The corona virus is Is out there. It's you know, we're all shut down right now In what ways do you think that innovation is going to be the way out of this? and You know, what what is going to be necessary from from the perspective of innovation and technology to to solve this problem Well, I think the first thing to say is that This crisis reminds us dramatically that we haven't done enough innovation.  They've You know, they're they're barking mad, you know, we haven't Pushed vaccine development fast enough. We haven't pushed some of the Technologies we need for diagnostic testing. It's quite hard to get licenses to do diagnostic tests It's it's really tough to develop some of these technologies the rules and regulations have got in the way um And you know, we've sat and watched as as these pandemics have given us fair warning You know sars really was a warning that out of these wet markets in china It's possible for very dangerous viruses to emerge and to go Global very quickly. Um, and we've developed incredible internet capability But we now look at south korea and we see that all you need Is really good data and really good contact tracing and really good testing And you can get ahead of a virus like this and we don't seem to have that in my country or in the united states so, um, uh, I'm afraid the main lesson for me out of this And by the way, sorry just to mention it. We haven't developed any antivirals We have some we've developed some ones that work, you know, we've solved the problem of hiv to a large extent But um generic antivirals like we have antimicrobials No, we haven't done enough innovation there. We haven't done enough innovation in antimicrobials to where resistance isn't a growing problem So it's a strong reminder That the way to to solve this problem is to innovate and I when we will get a burst of innovation out of this We will find cures for this disease And we will find preventions for this disease and there are going to be really so just to take an example um messenger RNA vaccines Okay, is a really smart idea that's out there and that is being accelerated to try and Get a vaccine for this virus. Well, we should have been on that years ago Now the gates foundation in the u.s. And the welcome trust in the uk and the norwegian and indian governments got together four years ago and said Hang on. Let's create something called the coalition for epidemic preparedness innovation And they were dead right and they funded some of this key work that is going to lead to a vaccine But they only started three or four years ago If they'd started 10 years ago, we might be in a much better position than we are today Yeah, oh, I mean this was making real how much our lives depend on innovation not just progress but literally our lives Yeah, and on on on on success of science and success of innovators to make that science into Something we all can use and can enhance our lives Uh, I've just been talking to matt ridley. Thank you for for joining me today. We've uh, we've been talking about this book My pleasure. How innovation works. So, uh, I I've read I haven't read the whole book I got it just a few days ago But I've read enough of it a significant portion of it to highly recommend it to anybody who's listening This mad is an exceptional storyteller, but he doesn't just tell stories I think you have to tell stories. That's one way People remember ideas But you also have to then integrate them into some principles and matt does both of those in the in the book So a powerful book an important book an important book Particularly now I think as we enter some political uncertainty about whether we Allow the innovators to thrive or not and and all of us all of us who care about human progress I think need to unite in in fighting for freedom and fighting for the ability of innovators to Improve our lives so that we can all be rational optimists Yeah, and the subtitle of my book in the us is and why it flourishes in freedom Why innovation flourishes in freedom? Well, thank you matt Uh, I hope your time hunkering down is as pleasant as this can be and uh, look forward to Shining again sometime in the future and good luck with the book. I've really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you for having me on the show Thank you, man