Good day, my lovely listeners. You are listening to the Forty Auty podcast. Tune in every week to explore inspiring stories and insightful information that dive head-first into the world of autism and mental health. With all those tantalising tongue twisters out of the way, let's get into the show. Hello and welcome back to the Forty Auty podcast. How are you doing today? Thank you very much for coming on, joining me and my lovely guest to talk about autism and concentration. Yes, autism does seem to have a lot of disadvantages in terms of the sensory aspects and the social aspects, but it also has a lot of strengths and advantages. My guest that I have today, Barry, is a very successful YouTuber and game producer, he's got a lot on his plate and he's got a lot of secrets to his abilities and strengths to share with us. But anyway, do you want to introduce yourself, Barry? Wow, that was a really good intro there, Tom. I do appreciate that, my friend. Yes, he is absolutely correct. I am known as Barry Aldridge and I have been on probably YouTube now for probably 12 years, I think, having like over 6,000 subscribers and he is correct. I am actually a game producer, but a brand new one for sort of FMV games, which FMV stands for full motion video, which is kind of like interactive movie sort of stylized and it could be like point and click and whatever sort of thing. Thank you for all these different gaming indie gaming companies. So they're independent games, which is a good thing where you have more creativity in that to your control. Also just before we started, I did a thing for BBC Free, a short BBC Free short thing of about autism in general, and it was a short follow five minute video, which I had a lot of fun with, so much fun though doing it. Well, and also, yeah, I'm also a customer assistant at the Tesco Express, where as we're recording this, as you can gather, we've got COVID-19 situation as we're actually recording it, and it's just before Easter as well. Just give you a bit of a secret as well, just in case this comes out after Easter. So yeah, I'm probably going to be having my Easter eggs or finished off all my Easter eggs. I've got like five Easter eggs and they'll probably be down to zero as soon as this podcast comes out. But I can definitely am fives with that. I've been giving up sweets and chocolate for Lent. I'm not religious. I'm not religious at all. But I just decided to have a little bit of a challenge to see whether I could not eat all that sugar and chocolate that I do on a regular basis. I did that once years ago. And I think when I was in my teens and it was absolute hell for me, my friend, trust me, but I don't mind so much. So nowadays, though, really to tell you the truth, really. It's you definitely do have a lot of a lot of work on your plate. You do a lot of different things.  Did you say that it had about two million views on it? Yeah, I think it was like three million. Yeah, it was three million. And I was part of the video. And I came out with this brilliant line, which I forgot to mention before the podcast. I reference Star Wars and, you know, we was talking about what autism was like. And I said, yeah, we're like the Rebel Alliance in Star Wars. And I said at the very end, come on, bring on the lightsaber. So yeah, that's on there, guys. So trust me, it's a really, really good little video. Some people say it's a little bit dated because of some of the references. But you know what? I had a fun time doing it. He even got aired on BBC One as well back at the end of 2017. And I got recognized a couple of times on the street for that. Good. Yeah. Well, we, well, I definitely need to check that video out after we've finished our little talk. But that's really awesome. How did you get into the sort of YouTube-ing side of things, like what sort of sparked up your desire to put yourself on camera and talk to lots of people? That's a really good question, though, Tom. What actually happened was I think my life was on a bit of a low at that point. And my best friend at the time, Aaron, if you're listening to this, so Aaron, hello to you. He felt very, very sorry for me at that particular point. And he said he showed me this YouTube website. And all I did at the time back then, though, is sort of the same as nowadays, but except, though, it's OK to do it where music artists put up their music videos or, you know, gameplay footage and all that sort of stuff. And I thought, man, it's nice to watch. And then I started to watch other vloggers around about that time. Around about it was 2006, 2007. I went, wow, cool. And then I started off with a channel called Barry 83 2003, which I absolutely hate that name with real passion. I really do. And then I was going through all this different stuff. And I thought, hang on, everyone's using their code name. Nobody I know, apart from one or two people were using their real name. So I thought, you know what, I'll go by my real name in the future. So I think it was like November 21st, 2007. I decided to use my real name and I came up with the real name. No, I just did it as a laugh and it caught on there. And then, you know, I started to go to back then was known as YouTube gatherings, which is now known as meetups and it lifted from there. And I got featured a few times on the YouTube front page before it all went corporate and all that sort of stuff. Well, that's just my opinion about before it all went corporate. And it's all about money, business and that. But for me, in general, YouTube experience has always been about community, making friends, meeting up with people, whatever you can do.  And it makes me wonder about what YouTube is though now that I think it's still slightly there, but it isn't what it once was. But I still try every now and then to do a video, whether like, like we talked before, whether it's a review of log, maybe even the live stream, because I've done a couple of live streams of a couple of games with a couple of companies I'm friends with because and they allowed me to do that because I got sent review codes and yeah. So you were there at the really at the start of YouTube before it became such a massive, you know, part of people's lives. Yeah, I would say I'm just trying to think maybe a few months after it really got started. And then, you know, I was kind of there from the very beginning in that.  And it talked about what happened to his career as well. And probably some people will probably know about it as well. So and it was kind of interesting to see what actually happens to them. And that, you know, I think that YouTube fame sort of thing. I'm glad that it never caught onto my head a bit. I'm just proud about what I've done at the moment though, Tom, to be honest with you. Definitely. I think you should be very proud of what you've done. Like you've you've got a lot of videos out there. And obviously you're very successful on the game producing front. How did you get? How did you get involved with game producing? Did you do a degree or did you teach yourself or did you know some people? For me, it's more surprising, you know, it's myself, really, because when I my university degree is is, in fact, more immediate. And just for people that want to know, we had a quick discussion about our degrees where in certain realities, our degrees don't measure up to what we do in the near future, you know, in our lives. And I'm a big fan of FMV games, which I did mention. And I saw I saw this guy who was doing a kickstarter and he had a producer credit for like, I'm allowed to discount how much it was only like a hundred pound, which is very, very cheap to be a producer. And I thought, you know what, I'm going to put my name in there. I was like, oh, no, but he was still accepting PayPal things. And this is my friend, Darren, Darren Hall from Teyana Studios. And I said to him for so many weeks, I'm going to get you the money to help produce the thing for you. I think he probably thought, yeah, you know, that sort of thing. Then within two or three weeks, when I got a paycheck for my job at Tesco, I thought, you know what, I'm going to go for it. I just thought, why not? And then after that, another company calling themselves SuperString, they had a Patreon sort of thing. And I liked their ideas of their game for that, even though it got mixed reviews, but I liked the passion and the ideas behind it because this guy works for Square Enix, works for Square Enix. He used to work with Sega and a couple of other big gaming companies. And I thought, why not? You know, better help him out in that. And he's got his next project coming out later on this year. And he's got a side project that he's hoping to release very, very soon. By the time this podcast out, the information of that will actually come out. So and that was my friend jamming off SuperString, really. So yeah. Well, cool. So what is it that you're currently working on right now, like the thing that you were working with? I think Tiana. Yeah, Tiana Studios. What it is, yeah, I just provide the money and I just let them get on with the project at the end of the day. And I can fully trust them because he's got a couple of actors who's done an FMV for a game I really, really like. And I became really, really good friends with. And, you know, every now and then I do ask him, can you share me any video or any pictures or something like that? And he does to a certain degree, right? There were maybe certain times he can't share things because of contracts and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah. And while it's a bit annoying, but I can understand the situation. You know, that's the point about making sure that everybody's cool. And if I feel like, yeah, he's done something wrong, I'd say, hey, man, maybe pull back on this and that and the other. But the good thing is we are both fans of Only Forks and Horses. And he's Delboy and I'm Rodney. And we sometimes throw those type of jokes at each other every now and then. And that was that's always fun, though, really. And so you got a good, good relationship together. Yeah, definitely a very, very good relationship. And he's I would like to help him out on his next project, definitely. And he he lives up in Yorkshire. I can't remember the place, but I'm all I'm going to say is Yorkshire. He lives up in Yorkshire and I'm on the south coast of and I'm on the south coast of England in West Sussex. But I'm not going to give any more information just in case. Yeah, right on the south coast. So I'm I'm actually in Yorkshire as well, in North Yorkshire. No way. Yeah. Nice. From different side of the country. Brilliant, my friend. Brilliant. You don't think it's it's crazy that we're having a conversation in two different rooms with two different mics. All the way at the other side of the country from each other. Oh, tell me about it, mate.  That's the beautiful thing about it. It's fantastic. Awesome. Well, there was actually there's a game that that really comes. You know, like you're saying about how it was sort of like a point and clip more of a sort of movie-esque kind of game. Yeah. That was being made. Well, there's there's this game that I really enjoyed. I actually watched a popular YouTuber player. But it was it was something like it was about this this girl who could sort of redo things, redo things in time. Can't remember the name. Oh, I know what it is. Is it called Life is Strange? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And here's another fact about that. My friend, Jammin, of Super String, he actually helped to promote that game with Square Enix. Whoa. I know. I absolutely love that game. Oh, I absolutely love it as well. And I'm not I'm not I'm not saying it as just to build a story. I'm saying it as a fact. He actually helped to market that particular game. No question. Well, that is definitely definitely something that definitely again, I really enjoyed and there's there's not many sort of there's not there's not really many games out there that have such a compelling story to them. I absolutely love that game. It was I thought it was really great. Definitely. Cool. So today we're talking about autism in the workplace, talking about like concentration, the advantages and disadvantages of being in the the world that we live in and working in the world that we live in and being autistic. Yeah. What do you believe? What are your experiences with being autistic in the workplace? Well, I've had a lot of mixture of opinions about it.  I just felt like, you know, I could have spoken out a bit more about it, because I was a bit worried, though, if I kept on talking about it, it will rub people the wrong way. And I don't want to rub people the wrong way at all. But I feel like, yeah, if you make a quick mention of it, then hopefully people will be understanding about because perhaps so many years ago, I think I think it's probably since the 80s or maybe a bit before that, yeah, that autism has become a bit more mainstream nowadays that you now got world autism Awareness Week, autism Awareness Month, World Autism Day. Gressa von Berg. Yeah, all these different things in that. And sometimes the information can be misleading. And sometimes it can be very, very honest in that. And it is a bit more accepting nowadays. That's what I've discovered, definitely. And the great thing is at my job at the moment with Tesco, before one of the managers had to leave because of a heart condition, he was very, very understanding about it. He wanted to learn more about it and the same with other people as well. And sometimes they can forget because we all got we all got our own minds about worrying about how we're going to get through the day with the job and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, it's how can I describe it? It's it's quite a lot to take in and all that sort of stuff. But also I'm very, very understanding about other people's needs as well. If it comes down to certain conditions or how they're feeling with the day. Sometimes I may not be able to read people straight away, but I can find out, yeah, maybe see how we go from there.  Well, the great thing is I've kind of forgotten a lot of the negative aspects because I'm someone here that tries to get rid of that stuff because one of the things about with the mainstream media is and I know this is going a little bit off topic here, I feel like that while they can be a bit too negative with their things and trust me about how they treat autism in general, like they probably got some stuff down, but they haven't they don't completely fully understand it. Yes, I remember mentioning to my manager one time about the noise factor and the same and the same with a couple of other managers. And they will completely understand they will want to help out. I said, I could deal with this a lot of the time. But if it does get me down, I would probably need to be by myself in a room just to sit down and, you know, just have a quiet moment reflection in that. And one of my jobs, luckily, is doing bakery where I'm actually alone in a room at the moment, which is kind of good as well. But then also I have to go out on the shop floor to put the bakery out once it's out there in that. So and do you find that in terms of working on your YouTube videos and the sort of game side of the stuff that you do? Do you find that there are any advantages to being autistic in those kind of things? Yes, it does give you a voice to voice your opinion about autism in that. And in the past, I did do some World Autism Awareness Day videos. And I thought, well, maybe I might only get a couple of people to help me out. Even people who ain't on the spectrum wanted to help me out because they knew a bit about my condition, but they just wanted to say what facts or whatever and they wanted to help out. And it was absolutely was amazing. It really sent a tear down my eye. When I showed my dad the video, he was in hospital at the time and he he doesn't normally cry too much. And I saw him crying and I was like, wow, I've done something really good here. From watching the video. Yeah, from watching the video I did like edit it together, put it all together. And it's probably one of the proudest videos I ever made in that. View wise, not strong, but it means something. It means something. Exactly. Exactly, my friend. I definitely find that sometimes the videos that I don't intend to be the most meaningful and impactful and I don't put as much effort into a certain video. It sometimes doesn't sort of line up with just how many views or how many how much attention it gets. It boggles me a little bit that sometimes the views don't match up with just how much effort and meaning you put into a video. Yeah, and I guess that's one of the sort of negatives of of YouTube in this this current day and age. Would you agree with that? Yeah, I sort of agree with that. Definitely, mate. It's something that gives me a bit more food for thought, I would say. But yeah. Mm hmm. So what do you believe are the main reasons why autistic individuals struggle within the workplace? What are the the main things about being autistic in in those situations that cause conflict or cause disagreements or cause difficulties with actually doing the job? Well, speaking again about with the Tesco job, I think it's just more about understanding the autistic nature because, you know, I think there are people that don't know about it or they don't know any family members or friends that actually have it. And they think when they hear it for the first time, it's just like maybe someone just trying to say it just to get attention. And then it does lead into conflicts of kind of interest. But then when they hear about that is actually a disability, more of a hidden disability, they go like, OK, yeah, yeah. But, you know, a lot of people have been very, very understanding. They don't if they want to ask a question, I'll try and answer to the best I can. I tell them sometimes it may be a bit difficult to explain and all that sort of stuff. And it's just down to them at the end of the day, whether they want to listen or not, though, really. But yeah, I always make sure to tell top brass. And yeah, they always try and make it really, really understanding.  And also, if you don't understand, just ask again. And sometimes they'll make sure that you actually understand, make sure that you've got the right essential. So sometimes when I'm on the job, they tell me the instructions to say, so I do this first and do that afterwards. They go, yeah, so I have a bit of a better understanding really at the end of the day. So it's about being communicative and bringing bringing things to the forefront that you think is important. Yes, absolutely. And, you know, I'm fair with them that I make sure that I do the job that I can. So then if they like, yeah, I have some issues with certain things, they can actually pay attention at the end of the day. It's that sign of respect at the end of the day, really. That's brilliant. Yeah, a lot of autistic people that I talk to mention that there there is a lot of difficulty with autism in the workplace. And I think, yeah, it does kind of depend on the people around. It's not, you know, you're not in the same environment in different jobs. You know, the people in certain areas of industries have different tend to have different personalities and outlooks. And one of one of the things that is usually quite a problem in the workplace looking at the statistics is bullying and social exclusion in the workplace. Yeah, yeah, I do sort of see where you're coming from with that.  You know, I make sure I don't focus on the bad stuff. Maybe a couple of times afterwards, after a little bit. But after that, I just don't see those people again, really, to be honest. You never have a focus on them, really. I think maybe it's something that I was taught, you know, how to do normal stuff but also trying to adapt my autism in the process. But hey, everyone in the autistic spectrum and including anybody who's neurotypical, is that the word? Yes, yes, normal. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to say normal just make it a bit easier. I mean, you might get a little bit of flack in the old social justice division, but not on air. Oh, come on, the social justice thing. They I think they need to wake up sometimes. Seriously, seriously, I'll be honest with you.  We're not being rude here. We're just trying to be honest. And that at the end of the day. But yeah, going back to the thing, I forgot what I was going to say about normals, sorry. Those normals. I know those normals. The normals, well, shoot, I've completely forgotten that we're about it. But yeah, I think you get roughly the idea in that. But if anybody wants to ask me, you'll probably know from which I'll give the information at the very end. You can ask you about some of the more personal aspects to us, because yeah, my my experiences, obviously, are very limited in the workplace. Because I only finished uni about a year ago, if a year ago. And I think most of my sort of workplace experiences have been within school. So, for example, the initial sort of difficulties that I've had with working with other people had been during group projects that we'd had to do as part of modules. Oh, yeah, yeah. I can remember certain stuff back at secondary school that happened to me. But I was like, yeah, and it did happen with me at uni as well. But I'll be honest with you, again, it's like. What under the bridge in my view? What under the bridge? I'm like, you know what, if they want to see me again, that's fine. If not, that sounds to them at the end of the day. With that, that instance in those particular instance that I recall where we were doing this sort of poster for. But we were supposed to do a topic around microbiology. So like about like the, you know, tiny sort of microscopic size organisms and stuff. And it was my job to sort of put the poster together because I did a little bit into it and stuff and the majority of the people in the group. So I could tell that they they got on quite well. And it because because it was my job to do like the poster and stuff. And I had quite a bit experience with it. I decided to sort of lay it out and and and do it. And there was just one person in that group that did not agree with so something like this, the font or the font size or something silly like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I sort of, you know, really really add it back to them and change it around and stuff. And then at one point they said, like, I tell you what, I'm just going to do it. And obviously that left me with zero work to do because they were all sort of congregating and talking to each other pretty much just completely ignoring me. And because of this one individual person who decided that I wasn't fit for the job, one of them actually asked me to go home, like just in a normal conversational setting, asking me to go home. And at that time, my social skills were not developed to the standard that they are now. And I found obviously that very not not, I wouldn't say cruel because it's not exactly the end of the world. But it's just not those types of instances have occurred in many times of my life. And another instance that's quite clear in my mind is is going to work in Thailand. And so I did I did like a research project for a year in Thailand, did a bit of bit of traveling and stuff. And obviously the the understanding of autism and just general science is a little bit not lower, but not not as strong in either the public awareness or in the scientific literature to literature that they produce. And I had a lot of problems with that. I tried on many attempts to sort of explain how my brain works and try my best to be communicated and stuff. But sadly, they didn't really listen to me. And it ended up where I was a person who's never done proper formal research going into a place that I need to do proper research and is going to become a research paper and be actual science with absolutely no help. At all. Yeah. And any time that I'd ask for help, it would be completely minimal, sometimes even incorrect. And then obviously when I approached my supervisors asked if it was correct, it would be incorrect due to the information that these people are giving. So they they very much isolated themselves off me. So so they sort of left me on my own. And the sad thing is that these these individuals actually made very good friends with the rest of the students that came over to Thailand with me. And it was it was a very difficult situation, as you can imagine. Yeah, yeah, I can imagine that, mate. Yeah. That those are the kind of workplace issues that I've had. I think it's it's generally just that I don't think people are willfully willfully ignorant. It's just that they don't some people don't really grasp just how different people can be. Yeah, I can totally understand that, though, buddy. And I think what it is, maybe they might have a bit of an understanding to it, but they don't completely understand. It's like maybe they don't know any, like I said, they probably don't know anybody and their friends or family to actually understand it. And yeah, I think that's what I got from you telling me your story in Thailand right there. There's this individual that I interviewed for my my documentary, Asperges in Society called Peter Bainbridge. And he's sort of like the co-founder of this place called Self-Adautism, which is like a charity that goes and helps people, autistic people in the workplace, autistic people that have to sort of mediate, have to be mediated with like local authorities and stuff like that. And he says that the most problematic thing for people who are what you describe as normal, or neurotypical, he would say that that in a lot of cases, the problem isn't that they don't have an awareness of it, but they just have such a broad, a broad understanding of autism that he describes a very myopic, which is sort of having a very limited view that, you know, that they feel like they know everything about autism. And I think that's what he's talking about. You know, that they feel like they know everything about it. And if you go against their preconceptions about how autism is supposed to be supposed to sort of occur in people, then, you know, it's not your autism, it's it's you that that seems to be the biggest problem from what from what I gathered from the interview that I had with him. And I think that's it is a big issue for a lot of individuals.  You're very good at discarding the people who are going to be in use and so we're not going to be helpful and going to lessen your your happiness. Yeah, I would say a few years ago I would have had a struggle with that. But as I've learned over the course of time, I feel like now I could sort of move on a little bit. I would be a bit upset for probably a day or two. And then after that, it would be long term. I'd be like, yeah, I like that. I like that view is definitely something that I've grown increasingly towards over the past few years as well. I think it's important to realize the extent of which you can make an effort and not be reciprocated. That's when you got to that's when you got to stop. There's not being reciprocated. There's no reason to continue. Yeah, you may be a gold medallist, my friend, but I could still teach you an odd trick here or there. Well, which which tricks I would like to hear one of those tricks.  But if you can manage to deal with it in the long term and become long term, you'll be fine, trust me. So it's more of like a would you say that you've you're very much a stoicist, stoicist? Just trying to remember the meaning of the words, maybe deal with what you can deal with, ignore and move on from what you can't deal with. Yeah, yeah, I think that is it. Yeah, I thought it would be that meaning, but I just need to be sure. So definitely, yeah, I definitely think having like that stoicist attitude towards life, particularly for an autistic person can be quite helpful. So is there a lot of little sort of niggly issues that occur during your life? And sometimes it can just be quite quite good just to, you know, be able to move on from stuff and focus on things that are positive and all that. Yes, absolutely. So we talked a lot about about the sort of issues and the disadvantages and stuff and being autistic and the kind of problems that can occur. Are there any advantages that you believe that your autism gives to you if you can if you can think of it as a separate entity? In terms of like, I think some of the some of the common things are ability to concentrate out of box thinking, routine, straightforwardness. Yeah, absolutely. Trying to keep to sort of like thinking different things ahead that other people do, trying to think like two or three steps ahead, like a psychological move, having obsessions with certain TV shows, films, even online series is, having the knowledge about who did what or whatever. Sometimes with Doctor, I can remember who directed a certain story or who wrote it, who did the music, who actually came up with the idea for this particular line, say like the final line of, say, like a series or who came out with this. And yeah. And concentration, again, can be sometimes a struggle, but I make sure I keep it in there, make sure that everybody gets whatever they need, focus on the end game, as they would say as well. So you'd say that a lot of sort of the skills that you've been using for your videos and your work and stuff come from attention to detail, would you say, on things that you're interested in? Yes, absolutely. Just to make sure that I get to the end game, get through the hardships, get through the hard times, because you know yet that there are better days ahead in the long term, even though I know you were not immortal, but I know for a fact that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, as they would say. In terms of sort of like out of the box thinking, do you feel like in comparison to to most individuals that you have a different way of interpreting things, a different way of explaining things? Would you say that that's that's an accolade for you? I would say that yes, because, you know, I might have a different idea about how we could actually get things done or try and think ahead. Like if I noticed certain things were a bit short before someone else spotted it, I'll be like, yeah, we need to get this done and all that. And sometimes I don't need to say anything. I'll go, right, let me just go and get this thing unless they say no, no, no. Don't do that. But, you know, if they notice that I've been thinking ahead, they'll be like, well done, well done. And always thinking ahead, though, really, that's a pretty good thing, though, really, at the end of the day, I can say. Definitely. It's I found that in general, I do I do think think ahead, but my the thing that lends lends to me the most is concentration in my case. Like I can go for for days obsessing about a certain project. I've had times where I've, you know, stayed away for about 48 hours. Just I know it's not good. But yeah, you know, not eating, you know, good, good meals. Just, you know, grabbing something from the kitchen, just to keep me going. Been there. You're not going to the toilet as much, all that kind of stuff. Get getting really into something. There was this piece of scientific literature that I'd read, which sort of compared the the different persistence of thoughts between neurotypical people and autistic people. And for a neurotypical person, it takes takes around three seconds for them to sort of shift their mind onto something else, whereas three, whereas with an autistic person, it's 20 seconds. So the neuronal patterns and firing persists longer in autistic people. So it may it may be a sort of a factor in how we just obsess about things and just staying like and stay on working on projects, you know, through the night or through, you know, needing to go to the toilet. Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I think also as well, I think routine of being at being compelled to stick to a routine can be helpful in some situations and I guess disadvantageous in some situations as well. Because once one of one of the things that my my Taekwondo coach sort of praise me on when I was training and stuff was that I was, you know, I stuck to this schedule where I stuck to I came every time to it to all of the sessions that I was that he wanted me to come to. I did all of the exercises that he wanted me to do after or on the off days of training. And he said that that that was quite a sort of determining factor in in sort of my ability to fight and stuff. But then I suppose as well, which is, I guess, more of a recent topic, which is the whole the covid thing. Yeah, yeah. I had a good routine, a good routine. I went to work, I wrote on the way to work, did some work on the book that I'm working on.  Come home and work on some videos or go and go training or something. And I had that solid routine that I'd been working on and have been trying to solidify my head. And now I can't do I can't do half of the things that were once on my routine. And it's kind of like these past two weeks, I've had to wipe the slate clean and just sort of like starting you and that's been really difficult for me. I can I can I can understand that, mate. I mean, if it was me from a few years ago, I probably would be in the same boat as you. With me, yeah, with covid-19 just going off a little bit here. A few weeks ago, it was my birthday. It was the last major out and I'll. Yeah, thank you. I've just for anybody wondering, I'm 37. So, yeah, I'm probably even twice nearly twice your age. Yeah, I'd say just a little bit over just a little bit over. Yeah, yeah. So I went on a birthday trip to Southampton and I spent nearly all my money. So I was stuck between my workplace at Tesco, which is only around the corner for me and my home. And I was like, oh, God. So I actually had some practice with self-isolation during that period after my birthday back in February. I spent a lot of money and I didn't have much money. I was like, God, I only have to go to work around the corner. I could go to the next town on the train, but that was basically it. So I was like, I'm stuck in the same area and all that sort of it. When covid-19 became serious and then the lockdown came down. I was like, oh, I've already done this for so many weeks. I know it's going to be a bit annoying, but. All right, this is partly my life. And I found that, yeah, I can save a bit more money in that and do all this sort of stuff and that, which if if I was having a normal life, I wouldn't be able to do it so much would be a bit tricky. So you found that that your actual your routine hasn't really changed that much because of covid? I would say slightly a little bit in the terms I can't go out because I'll just go out just to clear my head or something like that. But other than that, it's not a major issue to be quite honest with, which has surprised me that it was like I prepared myself and the same with my mum as well, to be honest with you. I suppose there's there's been a lot of a lot of autistic Instagrammers and yeah, there's a lot of memes going out there about you know, neurotypicals in before covid and after covid, you know, having a lot of changes. But now it's it's an autistic world now, you know, with we stay away from people, you have to keep a two meter distance. You can't interact with people. There's this less busy, less cars. It's it's a lot more fresh as well. Yeah, you can even see a moon now.  Is it full moon? Was it just it looked close to a full moon? But I can't really remember really, to be honest with you. So yeah, I have to I have to check into that actually at some point. I have to check my picture again. And in terms of routine again, like I think I think the main changes in routine for me would be it's obviously not now I'm I've decided to sort of isolate with my girlfriend. Oh, lucky, lucky, because a lot of people they can't seem to do that at the moment with their other half's. Whether, you know, whatever, whatever the sexual rotation is, they they have a bit of trouble. They can only do online communication or phone or something like that. So you are very, very lucky, my friend, which is a good thing. We were together before the lockdown occurred. How did she how did she feel about it? You don't mind me asking. No, definitely. I think she's finding it quite difficult in terms of not being able to go out and see friends.  You know, it's it's it's a very big change in the sort of recreational activities that you can do when I think the days for her sort of like blended into one. It's very difficult, sort of very you're routine enough for it to not feel like it's just an ever ending cycle of days. If that makes sense, I could see that. Yeah, I could sort of see that. Is she neurotypical? Yes, normally. I thought so. Yeah. Because I remember I had a discussion with one of my neurotypical friends and she said to me, which kind of robbed me the wrong way, she thought, yeah, it was best for me to find someone who is also autistic. And we got into a notness. Yeah, it sort of rubbed me the wrong way. I think, yeah, she was trying to be honest for me to try and make me feel a bit happy. But at the same time, I think she didn't realize yet that it actually affected me in that way that it's like. It's like saying it's like pulling the race. Yeah, I know how do I say that?  Yeah. And that friend was trying to explain that to me. I just sort of fought back against her afterwards and that. And I'm going to have a conversation with them again about it, though, one day to explain that whole situation. Like, I know you were trying to be honest for me and I do appreciate it. And I know you were trying to be nice, but it wasn't nice for me to be honest for you. There are a lot of like positives and negatives to both autistic and neurotypical people. It just, you know, for example, I'm not very good with my executive functioning. I'm not very good at organizing and cleaning. And yeah, I'm with you. Yes, she's she's like a very big manager in a social care company. And she's her head's on straight and she's got everything organized and stuff. And there are some benefits to that, of course. And then, you know, with, I suppose, with an autistic partner, that you'd have a bit more of that unspoken sort of understanding, I guess, with certain issues. But it's good. I don't see say any problem with that.  That's just it, isn't it? I'm just clapping my hands just in case if you can't hear me. I'm just clapping my hands at the moment. Yeah, so it's just in case so if anybody's wondering about what my reaction is, I thought, I'll just say I'm clapping my hands at the moment, ladies and gentlemen. I love it. OK, right. What about the main sort of negatives of being autistic in the workplace, like the typical difficulty with social situations, possibly getting overwhelmed century wise? In what cases do you feel like autism is a negative? And in what ways do you sort of work around that? For me, it's more about the overwhelming about how many jobs you've got to do, especially though, when you're. When I'm a C.A. at Tesco, the Tesco Express I'm working at, like you've got to do this job, you've got to do that job, make sure you get this done and all that. And then they suddenly change the job midstream and that. And it can be a bit overwhelming sometimes and even trying to remember, you know, because I do bakery during weekend mornings, I'm just trying to remember, did I cook this, did I cook that? And sometimes I forget to cook something and I put it in the bag and I go, oh, God, I hadn't cooked that part. And I'm selling it to a customer here, Jesus Christ. And especially round about this particular time where I've got to be extremely careful with the bakery, making sure that everything's all bagged in with. It's all passes the protocol, it takes a little bit longer to do, but I feel more proud about doing it, you know, just to get it out there and that, you know, and get it out to the people ready at the end of the day. And especially around this period where it's going to be very, very busy over the Easter weekend. And when I first discovered it many, many years ago, I was sent into a meltdown or something like that. And after like probably a week or so, I was like, yeah, time to move on from it really at the end of the day. I definitely I definitely get the having lots of things. I am I'm very much a person who likes to do one, two, maybe three at the max things in a day. I can't as if it goes if it goes over to an extreme amount where I have to think about multiple things that are going to be happening, then it becomes very much like an overwhelming. It's like my brain doesn't know which which part of it to attribute energy to. And even if I do have a plan, it's still it still gets to gets to me. It's like I should start this, but I need to start that and start this. And I struggle very much with that aspect of sort of attributing energy. Even if I do have a set plan, I can't I can't cope with too many things on my plate at the same time. It needs to be sectioned off and there needs to be each thing and needs to be given my full attention. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's something where neurotypicals have a bit of trouble like that. We can't you know, I can multitask no question about it. But there are certain times that, you know, you may need to pull back sometimes on the multitasking. I know, yeah, certain things have got to be done. Now, if it's an emergency and they tell me it's an emergency situation, I would be like, yeah, OK, yeah, I can manage that. But if it's like something like last minute and it is an emergency, I would probably go, what? And that's it, really. I think one of the one of the difficulties that sort of popped up in my mind. I mean, as I said before, I'm sort of do special needs, teaching assistants and stuff like that. And there was a class that I worked in for.  And I had a little bit of a difficulty with the communication of the teacher. I told that I told the school that I was autistic and I told the members of the team of the people that were working in that class that was autistic. But the problem was that they were they were asking me to do a lot of things that were sort of conflicting. Yeah. So it's it I think I think another difficulty for me would be ambiguity. Not not being able to give you a set plan, a set of things that you have to do. That aspect of it is difficult because they tell me things that I have to do and things that I should do, but then also say, well, if you feel like you should help out in this situation, then you should. Which is a difficult one for me because it's like, where does the line? What where do I draw the line? Like and my idea of where that line is to cross over into something else that I feel is more important is very different and very dependent on me. And their idea of it could be completely different to mine. And I think that that is one of the sort of problems that I found very difficult sort of ambiguity and not understanding just just how much we need to be explain things in order to really get into our heads or understand what they're trying to put across. I think that's that's a big sort of communicative issue that I've had in in work, definitely. So I feel I feel like once once we have sort of a repertoire and a thing to work from and it's very concrete and there's a lot of explanation and detail, we do that extremely well. As soon as there's blank spaces, as soon as there's things that haven't been said, then it's a problem. Yeah, that's definitely one of the biggest things for me. So in terms of trying to work around these issues, obviously, like you've sort of told me that, you know, basically this the stoic principle of sort of moving on with things and dealing with what you can do is a big part of your personality and how you navigate the world, would you say? Yes, I would say that definitely, my friend. It's just sometimes that you just can't think about the small stuff though all the time there are certain times that you can't win every battle. There are times though you're going to have to lose battles. It's like you're not you're not going to win Olympic gold gold all the time in practically everything really at the end of the day, even though if you really want to and that. But at the same time, I really still want to achieve it. It's very, very strange that the best way to success is actually learning from your failures. Yes. And everyone's going to fail, whatever particular point. And I think that's a problem with though with nowadays, like everyone feels like they want to win everything. And I think that's entitlement. Exactly. Exactly. It's like entitlement or something like that. I think if you earn it in the right way, then yes, the entitlement should come. But if you're just doing it and there's nothing out of it, then what's the point really at the end of the day? So it's going through those hardships, going through those hard times, even especially what you told me of what happened with Thailand. You had that hard time though in Thailand and you've gotten better out of it by, for example, producing this podcast, talking to various different people on the autistic spectrum, including yours truly here. And you learn from it at the end of the day, which I'd say is a great achievement at the end of the day from a gold medalist. Learning from failures is a big part of the sport. I want to know like you have others being countless, countless times where I've got my face beaten in and I was trying to make it up to the big leagues. And even times in the big leagues where I got my face beaten in, but there's also a lot of times where I passed through that that gate and grown and got better. And I think that whole sort of learning from failures, especially for an individual, can be extremely important. See, see every failure as an opportunity to improve. I think that's a great thing. But in terms of looking at autism in the sort of broader sense, what do you what do you think are the big problems that could be worked on some things that workplaces could put in place to help involve autistic people or make autistic people feel more comfortable and able to work in the workplace? What would you say those things are? Oh, this is a really good question. This could be quite a really broad big question. I would say, you know, maybe bring in someone who actually knows about the condition, like even if it's someone who is a doctor or someone who knows about the diagnosis a bit, or maybe bringing in a guide or something like that from, say, like one of the autistic charities that know about the condition or actually understand about the condition, you know, to every single workplace that, you know, even all the big corporations would have to if they find out there's a certain condition, they got to try and study it and learn about it and trying to bring it all forward in that. And with the job I've got at the moment, they we've got these laylards that have the sunflower thing on there, you know, a greenback and I've got a couple of those, you know, and I always make sure to wear it around. And there's an interesting story. You know, when I was serving on the tool, this was like, I think about a month before the COVID-19 thing started. This lady, I think she was like 60 or 70 or some of that. And she asked me about you got that nice laylard and I explained it to her and she asked me about my condition. I thought, you know what, because she's been so nice. I explained it to her and I tried to explain the best I can. I said, I may not be the best of it, but she learned something from it as well. And I remember one time I felt a bit sad because there was someone who asked for the laylards and we didn't have any more laylards left at the end. So and that was a good thing as well. It was like something like that. Although I have heard some people didn't like the fact that Tesco actually put down their name on the laylard.  Definitely. You know, I feel like there's a problem. I feel like a lot of the policies and initiatives, web places are pushing seem to be a lot more on the sort of like superficial level. So we had this thing in the Manchester Student Union where they'd banned clapping. Yeah, yeah. And that was in my, I think that I was in my student union. They'd banned people from clapping. Yeah. Oh, I've heard about this. I've heard about this in the news, mate. And when I heard about this, I was like, are you flipping kidding me? I'm trying to control my swearing here, but I'm so close to actually swearing right now to be honest with you. So I'm going to keep it clean for you, mate. Don't worry. I'm going to keep it clean. I don't want you to. Yeah, so I'm going to keep it clean. But what I can say is, are you flipping kidding with me when I first heard about that? And I was I was doing an apprenticeship at the time. Yeah. When that was going on. I think they wanted to do the jazz hands, which I find very, very funny. But at the same time, the clapping nature, I mean, I think it's more about there are autistic people who find the noise a bit distracting. I think I did a little bit as a kid, but it never bothered me after that little period. But I was like, are you kidding me when they said that? But you know what, I sort of saw where it was coming from. But at the same time, I was like, PC stuff going over the top again, please, gentlemen. I do think it does come from a good place and it does come from good intentions, but it's just completely not, it's not the thing that people should be focusing on. It's reducing clapping in a thing. It's not revolutionary. It's not about affecting the things around autism, the matter, for example, employment and mental health support and bullying at school. And all of that stuff, I think a lot of these things that most people believe that are the main problems for autistic people like the sensory stuff, which yeah, I guess it is a large part of it, but it's a very small issue in comparison to all of the problems that we need to tackle. Yeah. As I said with all the other stuff. Yeah. And I think one of the ways that I believe workplaces can better integrate autistic people is to make sure that there is a positive mindset and there's a good level of understanding, not just from like a symptomatic point of view and a scientific point of view, but even if it's just having someone who talks about, comes in and talks about their experiences with autism and allows people to sort of question them or even, you know, something like the, something that I've come across such as the autism reality experience, which is like this very cool sort of van that goes around. That sounds really weird. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Come to my autism reality experience, there'll be a white van appearing over there, I know. Yeah. But basically it simulates sensory overloads and it gets people to get to do tasks and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Just things like that, like things like that that give people a bit of a, an understanding, a bit of a basis to work on or at least just the openness to listen to an autistic person rather than immediately pass judgements upon them for something that they may not have known was an issue. Absolutely, absolutely. Just that base level of understanding and integration I think is very important. And I don't know whether that's something that needs to be done in the workplace. I suspect that it's something that needs to be done at all levels of society, secondary school, primary school. Yes, I was going to say that as well. It needs to be integrated a bit more into society. Also, I think maybe on a government level as well because I feel like they're not doing enough to a certain degree or not. I think they got a grasp of understanding it though governments and politicians that, but I feel like they're not 100% there though really. That's what I gathered from, you know, at the end of the day. Matt, but when most people think of autism they think of it as something that takes away from your life, something that is a disability and is always a negative. Whereas there's a lot of people out there who don't believe that and they believe that a lot of the struggles that are occurring is, you know, due to more of the social model of disability in terms of integration and stuff.  But I feel like there is a unspoken sort of assumption that autism is the problem rather than, you know, the other things like the bullying and the mental health and the unemployment is the problem. It seems to be autism's problem, not the things that autistic people experience. I think that disconnect, it gets in the way. It gets in the way of progress and people learning about it is really difficult things trying to bring to people's attention because, you know, it's like something comes along and it's like, well, they're autistic. Well, obviously they're gonna have some disability that they're disabled and they're gonna have a lower quality of life. Not necessarily. No, absolutely not. I think what it is, I think just people just want things simple, like a couple of paragraphs, that's it. But they don't realise, yeah, that it involves more than just a small text. It could be like a wealth of knowledge. It could be like a big 500 page book rather than a 10 page pamphlet at the end of the day. But also at the same time, yeah, you've got to make sure it's manageable for people so then they don't get bored. Like you say, it's a very, very difficult thing at the end of the day. I definitely agree with that. Cool, so I think I've got through. We've got through pretty much all of the questions that I want to ask. Oh wow, that's good, that's good. In terms of sort of a little summary, what three things do you think that we've mentioned are the most important takeaway from this podcast? Oh, I'm just trying to remember now because again, like sometimes my concentration can go. I think for me, it's more about trying to overcome certain issues if you can do. That's one thing I've kind of learned from it. Like if you've got the right mentality and you know what you're doing and you are told or you know what's going on and people haven't understand and then things are gonna work out. That's one thing I can say. Secondly, oh, this is a little bit more hard than I thought actually. It's always the most difficult section. Yeah, secondly, for me, there can be a lot of negatives with autism and I can understand why people are a bit worried about this and the other. They have to understand that not everyone in the autistic spectrum are the same and that concentration can be a bit up and down depending on it. Sometimes they can have the biggest gifts in the world and I said that though in a BBC free video that I mentioned a bit earlier on and I think that's the second thing, like make sure that you know that actually though not every autistic person is the same and it's not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing at the end of the day and the third thing is yeah, just having a laugh with this to be honest with you, buddy. That's all it is at the end of the day. That's all it is really.  Exactly, exactly. I know that relates to point one but in a way, yeah, it's kind of separate in its own way really at the end of the day. Brilliant. Well, thank you very much for that. We have one last question which is probably the most broad question of the podcast. What does autism mean to you? Uniqueness, having a gift, being different from the rest of society or to a certain portion society I would say, being out there, maybe a bit ignored sometimes but to the right people, it can be the best gift in the world. Yeah, that's basically it I can say really to be honest with you, my friend. Brilliant, thank you very much, Barry. Thank you. Cool, so would you like to give out some of your social media links? Yes, yes, I've never ever done this part before. Usually, I never ever do but I will do for you though, my friend because you know, you helped me out with this, so. My YouTube channel is in fact Barry Aldridge. My Twitter is also the exact same thing, Barry Aldridge. Instagram, it's Barry Aldridge1983 as well but people wondering about the BBC3 short I took part in back in 2016 which was shared on BBC1 back in 2017. I can remember the title of the video, it's called Things Not to Say to an Autistic Person. That's what the video is actually called. For those wondering about the producing of the games and also the voiceover, which I've briefly touched on, the producing roles are for Teyana Studios and the game is called The Dark Side of the Moon which I'm hoping will be coming out during the summer or the autumn and that was done by Darren with the other producing thing with Super String. Before this actually comes out, I already know some certain things but I can't tell any more information. He's hoping, my friend Jammin's hoping to release the game by the end of the year, maybe 2021, maybe at the latest and the voiceover game hopefully will be out very, very soon. Who knows, maybe after when this podcast has gone out they'll probably have a release date or something like that or whatever. If it does, I will pass you on some details or whatever at some point because one of the disadvantages with recording in advance, you could say some certain stuff and they go, oh right, it's coming out a bit soon and you fall or you've got an exact day. I'm like, oh God, I almost wore again, I almost did blast for me on here. So yeah, I almost came so close. I was like, oh yeah, of course, yeah, gotta keep it clean and all that sort of stuff. Just means that more people can hear it. Exactly, exactly, that's what it is. And other than that, I'm also doing some moderating business for a company called, a video game company called Wales Interactive. They're the ones who helped to publish a lot of FMV games and that really, really good company. And yeah, I think that's basically it unless I forgot anybody as well, anybody that's listening. If there is anything that you want to sort of put links or you want me to put any links in the description post sort of doing the interview, then we can, I can do that, definitely. Yeah, cool, cool, cool. I'll put all of those links in the description of the YouTube video and also the podcast. So if anybody wants to visit any of Barry's links, check out some of the work that you've done, check out some of the games that he's helping produce, go check those out. I think it'll be very interesting to have a look and I definitely will have to have a look as well. Yeah, definitely, definitely, definitely worth checking out though guys, if you can that is, you know, and the FMV games, they're not worth a lot of money, probably between 10, 15 pound. If you're listening outside the UK, you have to find out through the dollar and you know, all these different conversions of money really at the end of the day. It'll be different. I think it'll probably be like $10, $15. If you're an American or Canadian dollars, Australian dollars, Euro probably, probably 12 euros or 12, 15 euros at the end of the day. Barry the currency converter. Well, thank you. Thank you very much for those links. Obviously, if you want to check out the 4080 podcast on any different formats, it's available on Spotify, Apple podcasts and YouTube. Those are the main places that you can go to. There's a little bit, there's a few more places that you can listen to it on, if you go to the anchor site for the 4080 podcast, you'll be able to find all the links to those things. In terms of videos, you can check out my YouTube channel, Asperger's Growth. I've got a lot of videos on YouTube and mental health and all that kind of stuff. And then also the social media, of course, at Asperger's Growth, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram. And if you have a story that you want to tell if you've got any ideas or topics that you want to hear about, you can always send an email to Asperger'sgrowth at gmail.com. There is something also that I need to make aware to you guys. When this podcast has come out, it's likely that my documentary that I've been working on will be coming out as well. And I have spent an inordinate amount of time on this, trying to get it perfect with the low quality equipment that I was given from my project. 200 to 300 hours presenting, produce, directed, all that stuff done by myself. It's called Asperger's in Society and I would be amazingly grateful, amazingly grateful. I'd be really grateful if you went to check that out. But anyway, did you enjoy the podcast, Barry? I did indeed, mate. I did indeed. Thank you. It's been a real pleasure just to do this with you. Now I need, now it's my paycheck.  Well, this podcast is sadly not monetised. It's somewhat new. I know, yeah. I know, I know. I was just messing. I know it's a joke, I know it's a joke. Yeah, I was going to say that. Yeah, exactly. I was like, I was going to say that for the very end. I was like, if you say bye, I'm going to say, right, where's my paycheck? Just leave it on the funny note, yeah. Well, thank you. It has been a pleasure to talk to you. And I feel a lot more of a positive mood talking to you. So thank you very much for that. It's going to carry with me to the end of the day. And I hope that other people will take on your positivity and stoicism in themselves, I suppose. Well, thank you as well, Tom. And I hope you, and I hope everyone who is listening after Easter, we are actually, again, I thought I'd just mentioned recording it before Easter. I hope you had a great Easter. And yeah, take care of yourself, guys. Thank you very much, peeps. And I'll see you guys in the next episode. See you later. Bye.


Hello and welcome to the session. Let us discuss the following problem today.  Show that star is commutative but not associative but o is associative but not commutative.  Thus o distribute over star. Justify your answer. Now let us write the solution. Given to us the binary operations as star from r cross r to r defined as a star b is equal to mod of a minus b for all a b belongs to r. And function o from r cross r to r defined as a o b is equal to a for all a b belongs to r. We have to show that star is commutative but not associative. Given to us a star from r b is equal to mod of a minus b for all a b belongs to r. Therefore, b star a is equal to mod of b minus a. Mod of a minus b is equal to mod of b minus a star b is equal to b star a and hence star is commutative. Next we have to prove for associativity. b belongs to r we prove that not equal to a star b star c and star 4 which is equal to 3 is not equal to 1. Therefore, 2 star 3 is not equal to 2 star 3 star 4 associative. We have proved that star is commutative but not associative. Now let us check for function o to show that creative commutative. Given to us is o is a function from r cross r to r such that a o b is equal to a. We observe that b o a is equal to b for all a b belongs to r. Not equal to b therefore a o b is not equal to b o a commutative. Let us show associativity. c belongs to r we have is equal to a o c which is equal to a is equal to a o b which is equal to a. Now since hence we have proved that o is associative but not commutative. Now let us check the distributivity. Now to show that r is distributive go proving it let us understand what is distributivity.  Now we solve it further o c is equal to a star b o a star c. We have to prove this is equal to a star b which is equal to mod of a minus b mod of a minus b o mod of a minus c which is equal to mod of a minus b.   Now we will check whether o distributes over star. For any a b c belongs to r we have r c which is equal to a o mod of b minus c which is equal to a which is equal to mod of a minus a which is equal to 0. Thus a o b star c is not equal to a o b star a o c not distributive over. Therefore our answer is no. I hope you understood the problem bye and have a nice day.


When developing a research question, it is important to be careful that its scope is appropriate. A question that is too broad cannot be satisfactorily answered within the assignment. Your discussion of important aspects of the topic will be overly cursory, and the paper may lose coherence as it tries to address too many issues. On the other hand, a question that is too narrow will leave you with too little to talk about. There may not be enough relevant sources upon which to base a robust research paper. A balance must be struck, and this balance may take some time to reach, as you may not know from the outset what is too narrow and what is too broad. Often you must do some literature searching to determine if the scope of your research question is appropriate for the assignment. If you can't find much on your topic, it may be that your search strategy needs some work, and we in the library would be happy to help you with that. Or it may be that there really hasn't been much research done on the topic, and so you may need to broaden your question. But if instead you find that there's a lot of research on the topic, it may be a sign that you should narrow your focus. How can you narrow your focus? Have a look at what scholars have written for ideas. Journal articles in particular usually have a very focused topic, so they may be especially helpful as you look to narrow your question. How you might effectively narrow your question depends on your question, the assignment, and the subject area, but here are a few examples. If you need to broaden your topic, consider expanding one of your core concepts or dropping it altogether, as shown in these examples. If you're not sure whether or not your research question is appropriate in scope, consult with your instructor.


So, let's get started. So, I'm here to tell you about a stable device tree ABI and that it's actually possible because at last years or was it two years ago at ELCE there was some talks about having a stable ABI for the device tree being impossible and that's some kind of a trigger for me. So, I thought I need to stand up and prove it's actually possible. So, sorry.  I'm Lukas Stach. I'm a kernel and graphics developer at Pengatronics and what we do is we're a consultant company and we help customers build Linux based on the mainline kernel. So, constantly updating systems using recent mainline versions of Linux kernel and yeah, we help them reduce the maintenance cost by bringing things mainline so we don't have to maintain them for a customer but have them maintained in a wider community. So, at my day job I'm mostly dealing with the idolamics stock from FreeScale now NXP which puts me in kind of a good position to claim stable device trees are possible because those are mostly processes that are used for a really long time in the industry. So, they have really long lifetimes and yeah, that gives us a bit of time to actually get things right then yeah, if you have to deal with mobile chips you're probably in much more of a rush to get things out and get things working and not take the time to actually do those things. But what I want to do today is get you motivated about why we want to have stable device tree AVIs at all and then give you some examples at how you can do it or at least reduce the risk that you need to break the device tree AVI. So, why should we care about a stable device tree AVI? For now, most device trees are still inside the Linux kernel if they are upstream they are in the Linux kernel so most people just consider them part of the Linux kernel and as long as you change things in lockstep so changing the device tree and changing the driver in lockstep everything is fine, you're not going to break anything. But now there are other projects like other OSs that are using device trees like FreeBSD or whatever. They're secure word firmware running on the same system which is probably using the same device tree they don't want to reinvent the wheel and there's even boot loaders now with Uboot starting to make use of the device tree to probe devices inside the boot loader itself and bear works I think that ability is a bit longer so we use the same device trees we use in the Linux kernel in the boot loader or other parts of the system so it would be really nice to keep them stable so other people don't experience breakages just because Linux people decided to change something so one big thing we see a lot is that you have interactions between the boot loader and your kernel it might not be that you're doing calls to the boot loader from the running system but even loading the device tree the boot loader probably knows a bit more about the system than a fixed device tree you're having in the Linux kernel something like what we regularly see is that we have systems with different memory sizes so we don't want to have it in a fixed device tree but have the boot loader detect the memory size and write memory size in the device tree that's only possible if the device tree is relatively stable so for a memory it's not a problem you have defined binding and everyone just uses this and it just works but there's other cases like detecting touch screens or displays in the boot loader or firmware and then providing that information to your running lib or the Linux system you're about to start so you're changing the device tree and that's only possible if it's stable otherwise you would need to have to update the boot loader for the firmware and another big point not so much in embedded but with all those single board computers being out there it's a matter of user experience so people just try to update the Linux kernel on their devices like they're used to from running a PC so updating the kernel on your PC is something you do regularly because it's low risk, it just works mostly but people start to expect the same thing in embedded or boards they think of so it's actually a nice thing to be able to have a working or starting system if you're updating your kernel so let's get into the details about how we get a stable device tree ABI or freeze it at some kind so I think most people in the room might agree that a completely frozen ABI is infeasible so did you ever try to design an ABI or an ABI and never again change it I don't think that works so if we would aim for a completely frozen ABI everyone would just fail at some point and not bother with it again so let's try to get a definition of stable ABI that's actually possible to achieve and that's one way compatibility so let's look at the Linux kernel and the user space ABI we're claiming the Linux kernel user space ABI is stable because we don't break old programs running on the Linux kernel but we don't claim it's stable so you can run your program that's using new ABI or changed ABI from the kernel and run it on your 2.4 kernel we don't do that so if we try to transfer this model of being stable to the device tree the one thing we care about is firmware and the kernel so most people are running newer kernels on all the firmware at least unembedded the one notable exception for that is Enterprise Linux that are probably running a pretty old kernel and new systems with new firmware is coming out but the thing most people care about is if we push the device tree down into the firmware I want to be able to run a new Linux kernel on old firmware and I think if we define that as a stable ABI that's some goal we can actually achieve with some work so for those of you not familiar with the deep process or bindings or whatever just a quick example so a binding defines how you define your hardware in the device tree and make it available to the drivers that are actually talking to the hardware so it has to include the necessary information so for buses that are nondiscoverable like most buses on the ARM platform you need a way to let the drivers know what hardware we can find in the system and the one thing that we're doing this in the device tree is having it compatible so the hardware block is compatible with something and the driver checks for the compatible info so there are required properties in binding so they must be present in the device tree and there are optional properties that you might have in your device tree to better describe the system or have some kind of configuration or whatever so if you're describing your hardware leaving out any of the required properties your device tree is not compliant to the binding obviously so how to actually define stable bindings or bindings that you are able to support as stable a really important part of that is you go look at the hardware and provide an exhaustive list of all the things you can find in the hardware block might it be in separate chip or some IP block on the SOC you really need to look at the documentation and provide everything that's needed like voltage inputs, clock inputs and whatever as required properties probably if you're describing a whole system and you have a lot of new IP blocks or lots of new hardware where you need to define new bindings you're probably in a sense to just cheap out and only push things into the binding that your system uses so if you have some chip attached to a voltage rail and it's always on in your system you might be inclined to not describe the voltage rail in the binding then another user might come around and who actually needs a description in the device tree for the Linux kernel to be able to support that system so once you define a binding and it's accepted and used upstream you can't change it in a way that you add other required properties to it because you would make existing users non-compliant to the binding so what you can do is add other optional properties so they might be present but this again has a maintenance cost in the long run because now the driver has to deal with yeah, a regulator for the water trace may be there or it may be absent and you have to deal with all those complications of yeah, maybe I need to switch that on now or maybe not and there are some abstractions in the Linux kernel which make those things a bit easier but in the long run those are always a maintenance burden if you have to support additional optional properties if you can just say in the probe of the driver okay, I need this, this, this and this and if it's absent I'm not going to work with the device it's a lot easier than doing all the things at runtime right, it works but it's a maintenance cost in the driver so better avoid it and if you can avoid it or the way you can avoid that is actually go look at the hardware and try to be precise as possible in the description of the device so now I'm going over some things we've learned with the i.mx platform in the past years so if you go look at the i.mx platform you might not find everything I'm talking about here consistently in the platform so it was a learning process for us and I'm trying to give some guidelines where we found valuable to try to keep things stable and one big thing is if you're defining bindings for something be precise and exhaustive in the things you need but infer as much as possible from either the compatible or the actual hardware so if you have hardware registers describing your address space or whatever don't push it in the binding so things that are in the device tree or the more properties you need or have on the device tree the higher the chance that someone actually gets it wrong and if it's wrong you're breaking someone so if you can infer something from a compatible do it, don't push it in the binding so okay I'm calling names here but yeah that's something I found valuable to have it present to you so that's actually a good example with the Tecrac controller it's a mix platform but some example I found in the upstream kernel there you have a compatible for different generations of the devices and then in the driver there's a list of things that this compatible tells you the device actually has those quirks you can't use it so it's not in the device tree it's describing all the quirks of the devices it's inferred from a compatible so if you later on find some flaw in the device where you need another quirk or something you can actually look at the compatible and add it in the code so you're not breaking the device tree API to fix things so that's a good example one of the bad examples is the network controller and TI chips where a lot of the things that are just hardware so the number of DMA channels the RAM size that's integrated in the controller and whatever is in the device tree so everyone using this device needs to describe those things in the device tree so if the guy describing the hardware in the device tree gets it wrong the only way to fix it is fix the device tree and if you need to fix the device tree you're breaking the stable API so that's one example of how you shouldn't do it so what we've learned is to always use new compatibles if you're dealing with new chips or hardware blocks or integrations even if the driver doesn't match to that compatible yet write it down in the device tree for new chips so what we do with new chips is so we have that SPI driver on the MX6 Ultralight and we have a compatible for that the driver actually only matches to that compatible because it's basically the same IP block so we're using the compatible of the first chip that used that IP block but we have a new compatible in the device tree in case we find out or later find out that something is broken with the controller and we need workarounds in the driver so if we ever find out or find ourselves in such a situation we can just check the new compatible in the driver and infer the needed quirks from that so right so what if you actually forgot to add a new compatible for the thing you're integrating so if you're fixing or you might fix the device tree if there's something obviously broken in the device tree and you don't want to spread it further you might do that but before you're going and fix the device tree you fix the code in the kernel so one example same SPI controller and this is where we have gone wrong we have an SPI controller that is actually found on a quad in the dual light versions of the same chip and we thought oh that's the same IP block so we can use the same compatible and only use the compatible of the first chip in the device tree and later on we found out that IP block in the system integration had gone wrong so DMA with the SPI controller is actually not usable on that chip so now we don't have a new compatible in the device tree to check for that but we have to work around in the driver code by checking the compatible of the machines or the SOC so we just disabled the DMA functionality inside the kernel code so even if you're running an old and broken device tree that still claims that DMA is usable on that device the driver won't try to use it so always fix things in the kernel first so what do you do if you actually need to break a binding for some reason so you've got it totally wrong and you need to break it to actually support all the functionality of your hardware or something so there's some questions you have to ask yourself is your platform stable? so it's something or someone depending on things being stable and there's a trend in the kernel community to cheap out here and just put something like okay my platform isn't stable in the documentation and that's a really cheap way to get out of all this stuff so don't try to do this and you might have new platforms where a lot of things are still in the works and you might actually or your users are expecting things to break still because you're an early enablement of a platform and you may break things at that stage but it's not nice to your users and then the second question you have to ask is the number of users depending on that binding non-zero and if you can't answer that with confidence yes you'll probably have users that are using the binding and they're depending on it being stable so we've had one situation on the IMX platform where we've got binding wrong for the power domain controller and it later turned out that with the binding we've had we would only ever be able to support a single power domain but the chip actually has multiple power domains so we wanted to support that and we needed to break the bindings for that so what we did at this time is actually getting a comparatively layer inside the driver so you can still run a new kernel with reduced functionality with only one power domain being available on an old DT so there's code for this in the kernel and obviously code in the kernel is a maintenance burden so really think twice if you really need to break a binding can you make it work any other way don't do it so what we learned and did in that example is you really want to split out pausing of the old bindings in the driver in a separate function or something so once you've changed the binding you'll revert all your device trees to use the new binding the testing of the old binding will certainly decline so there's fewer users using the old binding and you won't have as good testing with the new or with the old binding so you probably want to push pausing of the old binding out into some parts of the code that aren't changed regularly so you're avoiding the possible recreations coming from someone adding another optional property and the new binding and just changing the things and then your old pausing breaks and some year later you actually realize it because someone is still using the old binding so just split it out that's how it looks in the Linux kernel today so we have the probe function and we go look and look if we have a child node with this name which is only present in the new binding so we can say okay that's the device tree that's using new binding and if we don't find that we're calling a function to do the pausing of the old device tree and then go on yeah, but it might be possible so in this case it was easy to infer from the presence of the child node because we didn't have child nodes before but in a general case probably it's easiest for the driver to just have a new compatible to check and then go past the new device tree or the old device tree bindings so that's it for recommendations and I think those are actually some relatively simple things you can follow to not make your and the life of your users harder so one thing you might have noticed is that only the first thing I've given as best practice with having an exhaustive list of properties in the device tree bindings is something that is actually enforced by the device tree maintainers reviewing your device tree bindings all the other things are things that are in driver or platform code so it's probably not possible for the device tree maintainers to actually enforce the ability for your platform or your devices or whatever so don't rely on them to do that job for you so if your platform or driver maintainer it is you who should take responsibility to keep things stable so all the things I've mentioned are things that can be enforced or at least encouraged by maintainers from the platforms and drivers so you should probably do that if you're a maintainer and on the other hand it's often actually not that hard to do the right thing and not break the stability of the device tree ABI so maybe it's taking you 10 or 15 minutes more thinking about better solutions than breaking the device tree ABI that's 15 minutes well spent because it's making everyone's life easier in the end and it makes systems upgradeable with out breaking stuff in every corner you go so I'm a bit early but yeah thanks for your attention are there any questions? not yet I've taken the opportunity to have ELCE to actually get the time to put it into a slide so yeah now it's just a matter of turning it into a document for the kernel yeah that's something we've encountered with iMix changing the way how interrupts are mapped on the platform and it was a really incompatible change but you have to be upfront if you're really breaking something so we've decided that it's not possible to have backwards compatibility at that point because it would just spread all over the kernel so we've at least made sure that the kernel boots on an older device tree and spits out a big warning to the users that they might have to update that device tree to regain all the functionality that worked before so be upfront about breaking things I'm not sure how often it's really possible to even realize that the change is incompatible one thing obviously is adding a new required property breaks the compatibility are there others? I don't know it really depends on the driver I think so I've seen a lot of changes where I as a driver maintainer see something that might be incompatible with the old bindings that means I need to know my driver and how it works and relies on something in the device tree and then push back on that change so I don't think there's a general rule of things that breaks the compatibility but yeah it's really just keeping your eyes open for something you might have seen before I think most of the time when you're breaking a binding you're fully aware of it hi I'm with TI so I want to disagree with you on the good and the bad so the CPSW which you used in your illustration is a synthesizable module and each of those things well I won't defend each of them maybe there could have been some defaults there but could be different on every chip like Arn pointed out so what you're really suggesting is that we make encode into the kernel knowledge of each SOC which is the point the device tree was trying to go away from and it also your solution doesn't work for the enterprise case that you pointed out at the beginning right because there what we're trying to do is give be able to write a generic driver that will work even if the kernel doesn't existed before that device existed so it's just I understand what you're trying to do but I just want to give the counterpoint got that argument before from the enterprise people but they're in a much different situation with having enterprise kernels that are probably really really old and you might even be able to change your firmware to accommodate a certain kernel because you are able to yeah detect kernel version and then change device team comfortable ways if you really want to do that but it does apply in more situations than enterprise because you're teaching the kernel specific information right so the same information would have to be taught to the bootloader to the trusted firmware to NetBSD you know all those things but it's possible with PCI devices so you have a PCI device that generally just has a compatible it's the vendor and the device ID and everything known about the device is inside the kernel so yes it's possible to push that knowledge into the kernel and it's right but then before but then old kernels can't run that PCI device right so I'm going to make the counter argument if you're putting synthesizable IP into your system you should do what designware do and actually encode the synthesis options for things like memory sizes into a readable register so that when your driver comes along it can read say oh I've got this much RAM I've got this much this and then it can actually make an adjustment because a lot of people do this and we've had to do this with designware too so I think that I agree with both of you I think the most important takeaway here is when you add something that is configurable and different between SOCs think about whether it should be a property or not don't just assume it should be a property or it should not be a property any other question? yeah, so hardware engineers pushing things into hardware and making it discoverable makes this job a lot easier so we've seen a lot of IP blogs where you just need to know okay it's in that address space or at that position in your address space and everything else is discoverable from the hardware and that's a really nice change okay, thanks for being here


Okay, this is James P. Madonna, Megalife21. Progressive discussions representing the Facebook group. Everything is food. This is an instruction for you people out there, especially millennials that are unaware of this, on how to make old-fashioned popcorn. Yes, popcorn the old-fashioned way. What you do is, I got a cup of organic popcorn in here with extra virgin organic coconut oil and about a heaping teaspoon, heaping teaspoon of Himalayan pink salt. You let it simmer on low flame, as you can see. See that? All right. Then, you wait until you hear the first one or two pops. As soon as you hear pop pop, you quickly run in the kitchen. You put the flame on high, full blast, full blast. That's right. Then, you start shaking the pan or the pot back and forth. In this case, I might not need it. I'm going to get a pot holder. It smells great. You can smell that extra virgin organic coconut aroma. Then, I'll start the second video when the popping starts. Hold on. Wait a minute. Did I hear a pop? I thought I heard a pop. It should be coming soon. Okay. The popping has begun. Put the flame up full blast. Wait a minute. Hold on. If you put the fan full blast, that's shaking. Popping should start increasing. Popping stops.  Please don't burn the popcorn. Shake it off. Extra virgin coconut oil, Himalayan pink salt, organic popcorn. That's it by James P. Madonna. There you go. Old fashioned popcorn. In this case, it has the aroma of coconut and both the high nutrition of organic coconut oil and Himalayan pink salt. Boom. That's it. Done deal.