Hey guys, Drew here, thatanxietyguide.com back for part two with my friend Holly from Mallorca. What's up, Holly? Hey, how's it going? All right, I'm going to come in a different day to the last video. I'm going to break the fourth wall immediately. We just finished part one. Holly took her hat off, changed her hair. I did nothing. So, yes. We finished, we recorded the first one like seven minutes ago, so we're just doing these back to back. Today we're going to talk about, today we're talking, this is part two of a video, that you need to watch part one. So I'll link that wherever you're watching this. I'll make sure there's a link. Make sure that you see part one first, and we are not talking to people who suffer from panic disorder and agoraphobia and those sort of things. We are talking to people around the people, yes, their friends, family, significant others, husbands, wives, spouses, siblings, BFFs, all that stuff. So if you're watching with your loved one or your friend who's got this problem, make sure you guys watch the first one first and then come back and watch this one. So now that we spent 25 minutes talking about what this problem is and trying to explain to the people around the people, the friends and family what it is, how they need to think about it and like what lies ahead. Now let's talk about what can you actually do when you are living with or in some sort of life relationship with a person who has panic disorder, agoraphobia, can't leave their house, can't go to work, can't be alone, need you to be with them all the time, that sort of stuff is having panic attacks is afraid of that. What can you do? Yeah. So, well, it's very important to realize this as well is that the person who is suffering really at the end of the day is the only person that can get themselves better. But the you as the people around that person, you can really help them. You won't be like the responsibility isn't on you. It's on the sufferer, but that you can be helpful. And I guess you wouldn't want to be helpful if you care about that person. Right. Yeah, that's true. So you cannot. There are many people walking the earth that for the best of reasons, because they love this person that they have, they care about this person, they want to fix it. Like there are fixers out there.  You can be the person who is dealing with the disorder can fix this and they will and they can because millions and millions of people do it all the time. Holly and I did it too. And if you watch part one, we told her little stories. So that's a good point is it's on them. Your job now is to become a supporter, a cheerleader, a motivator, a role model in certain instances. And what are the biggest and we'll talk a little bit about, you know, what you can do just in general and also what you can do when that person does experience a crisis, a panic attack, what they think is a crisis, an anxiety spike, a panic attack, whatever it is. We'll talk about that too. But in general, let's talk about what do you think? Like let's give us some basic guidelines here. Patience, we talked about that, that this is not a short process. Yeah, it's definitely not a short process. It's not as if like as soon as they start doing this thing where they go towards the fear or go towards the anxiety because this is what we're going to be saying, this is what we're saying that they have to do is that they have to, you know, like not run from the fear and try and break the fear by show that they're not afraid. So it's not like as soon as they start doing this, that they're just going to like get better. It can really take a long time. Some people, it might be really quick, but like some people, it can take a long time because the brain has to relearn its responses to things. And that takes a lot of practice. It's like being a concept pianist, you know, you can't just be like, well, I've learnt my C scale and now why can't I play Flight of the Bumblebee?  It really, really, really is. It really is about practice. Yeah, that's true. And everybody's a little bit different. So in that case, the everybody's different thing does apply. Some people are just naturally fast learners and adapters. And I think you have to understand, too, that somebody, that person's personality does play a role in this to a certain extent. Like if your special person is more aggressive and tends to be a little bit more forward and accepts a challenge and is a little bit more bold, they tend to go a little faster because those people are more likely to say, all right, I'm going to do this. I'm going to go into the fear. They'll show more courage because courage is part of this in a big way. So you need it's a huge part of this. So you have to understand that your your special person here, your friend or whoever it is, is has to start to find that courage. And we start from the premise that we all are courageous. Like they will think that they're not. But part of your job is to remind them sometimes like you came from the factory with all the courage that you need in there. So some people already know that and they can tap into it and go. And some people have to like, they don't think they have it. So they have to prove that to themselves first and they might go a little slower. So yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're learning new skills that people who might have a hard time like ditching their own beliefs, like they're going to have to learn to like not trust themselves and to put their trust in kind of like the collective of everybody else because they're going to have to model their behavior on what everyone else thinks is appropriate things to worry about and what isn't like you have when when they're going like, oh, but, you know, what if I've got it at the minute, we're looking to buy a house and I like being on the ground floor. I'm really weird about heights and we looked flat and it's amazing. But it's got a balcony and I'm like, but what if misty climbs over and falls down?  And I'm happy to realize it's not the thing. It's me. Everyone else is fine about it. Did I mean I'm like, it's me, isn't it? It's me. So I have to learn to ditch that fear because it is actually irrational and I have to learn not model everything in our lives around this kind of weird irrational fear. That's a weird example. But like, no, but it applies, I think to a certain extent. Yeah. So so your your special person is has to do that. And because imagine what's the almost everything they're thinking about, they have to ditch that because they're going to stream in what they're thinking like, oh, you had that thing where you didn't want to drink the milk first because you thought it was poisoned. But if it was poisoned, right? I had that as well. And I had to ditch that. I had to say like, this is this is ridiculous. And so in a way, like, and the reason why they don't, they will be resistant to ditching those those thoughts or hanging. They'll hang on to their old habits is they truly believe that it's they're keeping them safe. So all you want them to do is walk down the block and mail a letter or walk down the block and pick up your daughter from the bus stop. That's all you want them to do.  So what's what's easier? Like, let me go and walk down the block to certain death or let me hang on to the belief that if I just find the right herb or pill or do something different or keep going to the doctor to look for something, they want something to be physically wrong so they could just fix it and this will all go away. That sounds a lot easier than walking to certain death, which they think they're doing. So just be patient because some people can do that faster and some people cannot. We're not, I think we're not talking, it's probably safe to say we're not, not usually to talk about years here. Some people see really fast progress in a matter of weeks. Not perfect. No one goes back to normal in weeks, but like I was pretty fast once I got my acting gear, but then some people will take months and months and months, but that's okay. It is, it is what it is. I mean, I suffered 20 years and once I realized that last, I'd sort of worked on other bits, but not the final, like not this, I hadn't really realized this. And so when I realized it, I'd say within six months I was completely better after 20 years. Yeah, that sounds about right. That sounds right. I would say that I think somebody asked me and I said, within six or eight months I was 75% normal. And the other 25% were just things that I had to intentionally try to do because I didn't need to fly to Los Angeles that day. So like, how do I tackle that if I don't need to do it? But so that's- Even now I'm still sort of unraveling little bits, like the balcony thing. Right, right. You know, so stuff may linger for a long time, but life gets back to pretty normal relatively quickly within six, eight months. Most people are pretty far down the road. Some people will take longer. So anyway, patience, number one principle for the people around the people is you gotta be patient with your person. And if we're gonna say that, let's talk about that thing where the sufferer themselves.  You have to commit to doing this work. So we're now asking your husband, your wife, your partner, whoever to be a supporter and a cheerleader and be patient with you and understand what you're going through. So in return, you have to buy into your part of the deal, which is to say, okay, I am keeping myself this way. I'm not really in any danger.  And you have to commit to doing that work. So- Even if you don't believe it, just do it. Just do it, just do it. Do it. And if you're watching us like- Probably, it's okay. Yeah, if you found us on YouTube or whatever and you are not in that Facebook discussion group, get in it, I'll have a link and you will see stories every single day.  Like you will see stories every single day in that group which Holly and I are both super proud of, of somebody who says they have been, like one person in particular yesterday was outstanding. Five months of, I can't do this, this is horrible. This is terrible. I can't stand up. I can't get out of bed. This is horrible. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm at my wit's end, I can't do this anymore. And yesterday was, I did it, like I get it. And she was suddenly like, I'm rising above my anxiety symptoms and so get motivation and inspiration from there. And so now let's talk about that. So now you have to be patient. The sufferer has to live up to their end of the bargain. And I think, so let's talk back to the people around the people, let's talk about cheerleading and inspiring and motivating to a certain extent. Like when is it time, when do you think it's time to be a cheerleader and a motivator to say, you know what? I need you to get off the sofa and do this. Remember what you have to do. Let's do this thing and I'm gonna root you on and be waiting for you when you come back in the door and we're gonna celebrate. So when is that time? And that is very different. That is very different to being an enabler where you're being in your view, you might be this person around the person that's going like, oh, you know, I know that you're having a really hard time and you feel really awful. So don't worry, I'll take the kids to school today because you're feeling like you're having you have really bad anxiety. It's just like, well, do you know what I mean? Like every time you then step in for them and let them avoid, avoidance is the key word here. Every time you let them avoid something to do with their anxiety, you're actually enabling that anxiety and you're teaching their brain that like, yeah, there's something to be scared of and therefore you had to avoid it. And so like every time you do that and you step in for them in that way and like remember it's manageable steps. So don't suddenly make them go do stuff they're not normally doing but like that's the difference between, so it's coming from a good place, what you're doing but it's not actually helping them. So like every time you let them get away with like canceling plans and stuff because like, oh, they're just not feeling too good at the moment.  Like if you love me, then you'll like, let me just avoid all this stuff and hide away. It's just like, yeah, but also if you love them you're gonna like want them not to like shrink their world to like this far around them. You know, you have to like find that weird like balance of being like loving and supportive and sympathetic and understanding that what they're going through is real to them and also like pushing them up and chilling them on, you know? Like inspiring them. So it's sort of like forcing them to do stuff because they kind of have to, you know you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, you know? They have to do it, but it will be very helpful for them if you understand in this process that they're trying to go through and helping them to go and do these and to face their fears and to be like, wow, you did an amazing job.  And I think understand that the things that you're gonna ask them to do that you're not asking them to do, you're reminding them that they have to do this work.  So it could be a tiny little task or it could be getting out and taking a walk or taking a drive or something. So whatever it is they're doing, always remember that it is hard. Like it is hard and that's why they don't wanna do it. And what Holly was saying is don't, you can't let this person off the hook or you should try not to don't enable their avoidance because the logical thing is to say, I'm having a bad day. This person will wanna say, well, I'm really anxious today. So I'm just gonna get my act together. I'll feel better tomorrow and I'll go do my exposure work tomorrow. But no, it's the opposite. You actually, it's more valuable when you do it, when you feel badly, yeah. Every time they do something that's hard for them, they learn so much more. It's like a really great practice session, you know? Whereas every time they do something cause they will already feeling okay, like fine. That's fine, but you didn't really progress much. You can learn everything, yeah. Correct, correct. So the biggest mistake that many people make is like, well, when I feel better, I'll go out and take my walk or when I feel better, I'll take a ride to the store and buy milk. It's not that you have to do it when you feel badly. And you have to understand that this person is also struggling with making that mental shift between I'm just gonna like hang on and just bear it and tolerate my trip to the store, the shop to get milk and then hurry up to get home and truly welcome it. Like, yep, I'm gonna go out and panic now and I'm happily gonna do it. They're trying to get to that point. So it will take a lot of repetition and struggle and... We should talk a bit about white knuckle and like just because it's so important because this is where people make tons of mistakes when doing like exposure because I think that just by like going out and doing this stuff, because it sounds a bit like that's what we're saying. We just like just go and just do it anyway. There's such a big difference between like, say it's you sending them to the shop to go and get some milk, okay? And like, so there's such a difference between them going like, oh my God, okay. And they go to the shop and they're completely tense all the time and they're trying to sort of like, maybe talk themselves like, oh, okay, okay. It's just anxiety.  And it's like, you did it, so that's good. But it wasn't good because they didn't actually learn that the anxiety itself wasn't dangerous. It's good that they did a thing. If they're stuck inside the house and they're struggling to get out, getting out of the house in itself is a good thing. They learned that going to the shop, like they went there and they survived. In their head, they survived going to the shop. But really what the really, really, really good work is, is if they do this, is if they go to the shop and they, as they are going to the shop, they're going, okay, I'm feeling anxiety and I feel like I might die. And if I die, do you know what, that's okay. Because I just have to do something different. So I'm just gonna go to the shop anyway and I'm feeling like, hell, but it's okay. Like because they're in breaks and they try and relax and they don't, if they normally hold their face, they don't hold their face. And this is where you can be really helpful is that you have to try and remind them of what they are doing. So if they're sat there going like this because they're feeling really tense and that's what they do, that's what I used to do. Like just feel, don't do that with your hand. Just put your hand down, just relax it. If they're trying to like feel like they just wanna like sit on the sofa and hide, then you need to get them to stand up and take a walk outside. Or you need to get them to do the opposite of what they are doing in those moments of feeling anxiety. So if you're walking with them to the shop, say, you need to just remind them as they're walking, like, okay, just relax your shoulders, just, you know. Slow down. Yeah. Like let the worst things that you're thinking about be okay, you're okay with them. Right, let them happen because they won't. Don't try and rationalize them, this is important. Yeah, don't try and rationalize the thoughts that come. Like if they're going like, oh, but what if I fall down and have a seizure?  You just have to be like, well, yeah, I guess. Yeah, go ahead. That's super important. So you need to cheer lead and motivate this person when they need it, when they wanna avoid and understand that you're trying to help them not do, not just white knuckle their way and tolerate it. So when that person says, I'm afraid I'm gonna have a seizure, the actual correct answer, believe it or not, which sounds heartless is, okay, go ahead. Go ahead and have a seizure. Like in so many words, I mean, obviously you don't wanna be a douche about it, but like, okay, go ahead and have a seizure because they won't and they need to learn that they have never done anything that has stopped them from having a seizure. If that's their fear, a seizure, then they have to learn their experience that if I do nothing, do nothing and actually just let go ahead and have a seizure, I won't. And so the only answer is to, I feel like I'm gonna pass out is, okay, I feel like I'm having a heart attack. Okay, I'm really scared. Okay, just calm. Okay. And so your job is to remind them of the, yeah, if they're going like, what if I go to the shop and then I have a panic attack and everyone in the shop sees me having a panic attack. Okay. You don't say to them like, oh, well, don't worry because actually like this, you need to just say like, well, yeah, people might see. Right, that might happen. Okay, you'll have a panic attack and you'll be okay. And the end result, because this person is trying to build experiences that always end with and I was okay. So they're trying to build stories that in there for their brain that always go, I went into a scary situation. I felt really badly. I did nothing about it. And I was okay. It always has to end with and I was okay.  I did nothing and I was okay. So keep that in mind as you're doing that supportive sort of cheerleading thing. You're asking them to do things that are hard for them and they will probably in the beginning be white knuckling their way and it's super common for the person to say, oh, I'm accepting my anxiety now. I'm not fighting it. I've accepted it. It's been two weeks and I still am having panic attacks because the first couple of times the first stage of this is they're gonna white knuckle their way through it.  Or like, why are you going so fast? Slow down. So there's some basic principles. Slow down, relax your body, learn to put your focus where you want it to be. We always tell them like focus on the tip of their nose and breathe, focus in your breath, let those anxious thoughts scream at you. These are the things that they need to do, right? And so you have to be cognizant of what they're trying to accomplish and to help support that. And here's a big thing because this is often very like bad information that gets given to people that are having a panic attack. It's that they get told to like distract themselves. So like, talk to them, like do a quiz. I used to get like my husband to like give me quizzes. Yeah, yeah. Like just to try and distract myself out of it, but distraction, this is where the key, this is the whole key that I didn't know for years and years and years because the avoidance maintains anxiety and the avoidance means not only avoiding going places and doing stuff, but it means trying to avoid how you're feeling at that time. And by distracting myself and asking for quizzes was trying to avoid how I was feeling. And so you see like the difference, actually I should have just sat there, you know, I just sit there and feel it and then it passes and I realized I learned a lesson that there was no danger and it was just adrenaline going through my body and it's gone. That's what you need to learn. But so by going like, oh God, I feel awful, like distract me, talk to me, let's talk about anything. And then, because it will work, it will distract them out of it. It's a degree, you know, it will help, but it doesn't learn them a lesson. So it might feel like a short-term fix and tempting to be like, I'll just distract them out of this panic attack. But actually like in the long-term, it doesn't teach them anything. And it's the same with taking a pill, take a benzo because they're having a panic attack, you know, like it doesn't teach them anything. The benzo will relax them and then the panic attack will go, but it would have gone anyway. And then- And what they have learned is that you save them or the coloring book or the asking them questions or talking about last year's summer vacation, they will think that that saved them when they didn't need saving. So they need to learn. So your job is to understand this and sort of help them navigate those waters, your job. That's terrible. I shouldn't say that, that's putting pressure on people.  I have to, they'll forget all of these things. So your part of how you can be helpful is, while, no, let's talk about that. So while they're actually having a panic attack, like now it's in full force.  No, no, let's, we'll tell you what you're supposed to do. So, right, so now whatever the situation is, you're at home or that you're out and this person is ventured out and you're with them and it happens. The worst thing that they could think of happening, the full blown five alarm panic attack happens. So what do you do? Like, and if you love this person, you want to save them. You do, because you don't want to see this person terrified and suffering. And believe me, I have seen and interacted with many people who go into very extreme states, they're crying, they're screaming. I've known people who say they literally throw themselves on the ground wherever they are. Please help me, save me. Like all that stuff happens on a fairly regular basis. So what do you do when you're with that person now? Get ahead. It's all you. Okay, so the first thing you should do is recognize that they're having a panic attack. Like don't get sucked into their sort of like, well, what if it's something else this time that you can tell when they're having a panic attack? I've seen it a hundred times before, right? So you can tell they're having a panic attack. So you need to be, what you need to remember is that they've completely lost all of their reasoning at this point.  And so you need to be the reminder of all these things that they know when they're not having a panic attack. You need to sort of remind them of that because they will forget and it's so hard when you're in the midst of it to remember like to do the opposite, to relax into it. It's just a panic attack and to feel the, to let the sensations, to not distract yourself. You need to do all these things. Well, you don't have to. But you can be very helpful by reminding them of all these things that they know but they will definitely forget in that moment. And they will be convinced that actually like this time it's something else and, and yeah, yeah, but this time it doesn't apply because of they'll have like a million excuses and you need to just be like that firm and calm.  Get yourself together. That's not gonna help them at all. You need to be very like calm and soothing and be like, this is a panic attack. You know what you should do. You need to relax your shoulders. You need to relax all your muscles. We say like be like a rag doll, right? Yeah, go rag doll, right. Just intense, intense, intense, intense. And feel those symptoms. It's just adrenaline. It won't hurt you. Look, like you can almost ask them to like examine the symptoms to a degree. Like what, what actually is it?  I'm breathing really fast. And none of the symptoms really that they feel anything different if you're like very physically sort of exerted, right? It's sort of like the same symptoms. It's just that you have like a fear that goes along with it that makes everything you feel like it's dangerous. Yeah. So, yeah. This is the point at which when the five alarm panic hits, this is when your special person has to be a superhero. Like remember this, we are asking them to literally, in their minds, especially the beginning when they first adopt this strategy, if they are afraid that they are going to die when they feel that way, we are literally asking them to accept that, that, okay, go ahead and die. Like imagine how horribly counterintuitive and difficult it would be to put your brain around that strategy that says, all I wanna do is run and be saved and be safe and tense and fight, but I'm gonna do exactly the opposite and literally surrender to this horrific experience. And that is what they need to do. So they are surrendering to the worst thing that they can imagine at that point. So you need to understand that. And really the best thing you can be is not even necessarily reassuring, but just there. Like if anything were to happen, I'm here, but nothing is going to happen. And remember, this is where the rubber meets the road. Like I think one of the most valuable things you could say to somebody who's having a panic attack, especially panic attack number 700, is you need this to happen.  And I find that a lot of people will be willing to say, oh, okay, okay, I can do that. As opposed to like, go ahead and die, which is literally what we're asking them to do. Go ahead and have a seizure, go ahead and have a stroke. This is the time when you do the opposite and I'll stand here with you while you do it. And I know that it's incredibly scary and super hard, but I know you can do it. And don't engage in, you're okay, you're fine, they're already doing that. And we're trying to get them to not do that. No, I'm okay, no, I'm okay, no, I'm okay. Just neutral, brain and neutral, body relaxed, let it happen. And all of a sudden they'll discover, you're gonna know that day that they do it right the first time and like four or five minutes into it, they suddenly have their eyes brightened again. It's like, I feel better.  And that is an amazing moment.  So yeah, that is what they are trying to do. So one thing that you could do and they have a magic attack, one reaction you could have, which might be interesting to try, is to be like, oh, brilliant. This is a great chance to practice. Practice, that's exactly right. Practice, like, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.   It's gonna suck, but your team and your program will get better. So using a sports analogy, if it helps, like, yes, this is, okay, remember we want this to happen. This has to happen sometimes. And you need to also understand that their success is not having a panic attack. Like so many people feel like, oh, I'm doing great because I haven't panicked in three weeks. Usually means they're running around it and they've found ways to sort of cleverly injure and engineer their way around it or stop it or, you know, but you kind of need it to happen sometimes. You can't make it happen. If it doesn't, it doesn't. They can't get better without panicking. So that's why you should almost, like, greet those panic attacks with, like, realism. Because it's just like, right, there's another chance to practice. And every time they have a panic attack and they manage to, like, relax into it and surrender to it, they are gonna make such a huge step in their recovery. They're not gonna notice it straight away, but it is there. It's in the background. It's, you know, another time that they sat and played those scales. Like, it really, really is a very useful thing. And they have to, you cannot get better from panic disorder without panicking and learning to face it. So it should not be, yeah.  It's like, oh, okay, well, that's a shame. Well, I mean, it's great. Yeah, obviously that's great. You want that. And in the end, we should probably also mention this, this crazy like thing that nobody gets, even the people who are in the think of it, they don't get it for a long time. Your person's, your special person's goal is not to never be anxious. It's not your, the object of this game is to not make it go away. So we're not talking about therapies and exercises and exposures and techniques that make it go away. What their goal is, is to learn to not be afraid of it and not care if it happens. So when you are, when this person, whether you're with them or not, when your person is out and they're doing the work and everything's been going pretty good for a week or two, whatever it is and it's working great and they're working the system and they feel like they're making progress and either you're with them and panic happens and they fall apart or they come home and they're a wreck because they panicked and they ran home, your job then is to remind them, this isn't, you're not back at square one. This is not a setback because they're gonna think that like, oh, I ruined everything. I thought I was great. I'm never gonna get better. This is, I- Honestly, setbacks don't exist in this- There is no such thing. There is no such thing as a setback. So in that case, your job is to sit them down and give them a hug if you need to and be compassionate and say, this is not a setback. Remember, you have to feel that. So, okay, maybe you panicked and you freaked out and you went back to the old ways when you ran home to be safe but do you think that was right? And they're gonna say, no, I know I shouldn't have done that. Okay, no problem. So let's get in the car and go back to that spot right now. If you can, that's the best strategy is to get right back on the horse immediately.  And this is where you're cheerleading yet supporting. Look, I know that's really sucked. I'm sorry that this happened. I know you feel defeated right now but you're not defeated. You're not like, you are not defeated. Remember, you have to go through those things constructively in order to move forward. So you guys are not working together toward don't expect that your friend or wife or spouse, whoever it is, is going to do this and stop panicking or stop having anxiety. They won't. That's the secondary result. First, they will get to the point where you guys can go out to dinner or go to a birthday party or go to a concert or a sporting event or just go shopping. And he or she may go through that event and feel panic. They might panic, but it'll only last 10 minutes and then you'll just keep going. It won't be a disruption or they might feel anxious constantly, but it won't matter. In terms of the pace about it, puts it like, yeah. Exactly. And you'll see the difference between, okay, I'll go out to dinner with you and they just bear it because they think they have to. You'll know the difference. The goal for them and you'll see when they get there is I'm feeling really anxious right now in the shopping mall as we walk through, but okay. And they will be anxious and uncomfortable and maybe not feeling their best, but they will not be on edge. And you'll know. You'll know the difference. That's where they're trying to get to because when the day comes and they get to that and they discover like, oh, I felt really bad and really anxious and I was anticipating and I don't like the mall, but I was okay anyway. That is when the anxiety and the panic begins to fade away. But if they did it right, if it comes back one day, okay, I know what to do here. So essentially they're learning to inoculate themselves against this disorder. So if it comes back one day, okay, it's not a big deal. Like this isn't- It's like a vaccine, isn't it? Yeah, it's like a vaccine. They're learning to like, oh, if I have a panic attack one day, okay, it's a 10 minute event.  Because what happens is that it's hard for them to believe it at the moment, but what happens is that when you have a panic attack, when you know how to deal with it and that you don't have panic disorder anymore, like us, because we still very occasionally get panic attacks. Sure, I can have now and then. Yeah, and it's just like, it's annoying and it's like not very nice at the time. But honestly, like, I don't even think about it afterwards. It doesn't affect my life. I don't avoid anything. I don't change and it just doesn't matter.  And then you can have a panic attack whilst doing all the stuff you normally do anyway, you know, like actually. Right. Like you can be in a meeting with people you could be driving the car. I've had panic attacks on stage, singing and playing, you know, and like, like actually it doesn't even matter. Like it's so sort of irrelevant.  And actually that was what was causing all the panic attacks. Was the trying not to? Yes.  Yeah, yeah. And I think in the end, I mean, there's so much where we can talk about this for hours and hours and try and get these tips to people. But I think in the end, patience, it takes time. You have to be a motivator and a cheerleader. You have to be a role model. But you also, oh, you have something else. Yeah, let's throw it in there. Yeah. This is really for the people around the people. Like because I would like it. I think people in human nature feel like when they're feeling bad, feel like they have to withdraw away from people and not be around. Like this is more for like, maybe not the like the significant other or the very close people, but more like the sort of more like the friends or like the sort of more stuff. There's people that like it doesn't matter. Like if your person doesn't want to come to dinner with you or to the party or round to your house or meet you for coffee because they're scared that they might be feeling bad. Like you should also make it clear to them that like, you don't care if they're feeling bad or not. Do you know what I mean? That's really good.   Yeah. So you should really try and draw that into them that like it just because people are feeling bad doesn't mean that they should try and withdraw from being around people because that really isn't the case. And nobody who cares about you would want that, you know? No, that's true. And I think you're right for friends and like more of the peripheral people that you counter social situations, but even for everybody, even the significant others like it's, you know what? Let's go out to dinner or let's go to that movie. Let's go see that movie. And you know what? If you really feel horribly and you panic at the movie, all right, it's okay. I won't like in a way as their partner in life to a certain extent or as somebody that they care about, you have to be willing to say like, well, I know that this person doesn't want to do this. They're going to do it anyway because it needs to be a learning experience. And if they panic in the movie, you really have to be okay with that. And you have to let them know that too. Like if you have a panic attack willing your movie, that's okay. It'll be okay. I'm not going to be angry at you.  I'm not going to, you know. They will feel like they are ruining like yours. Everything. It's because it's so loud.    And so you could be sad to someone in the movie theater and they're having like huge panic attack and you wouldn't even know. But to them, they're like, I've completely spoiled your whole experience. It's just like. Right. So the best thing you could do is to, first of all, you have to truly feel that way.  You got to work on that. Like if you really think that, like so you have to really, truly say like, you know what? I don't care if you panic in the movie or if you're panic at dinner. I would, I would rather that happen and we be together and we try and do this thing together. So you have to be on board with that. First of all, you can't pretend. But I think there was something else that I was just going to say, and now it went out of my head because I started saying another sentence, which was a big mistake. But that thing, like, oh yeah, that thing where they feel, let's address the center of the universe issue. I mean, we're 40 minutes, but let's address that anyway. I think one of the things that becomes the most stressful factor in a relationship whether this is your friend or your spouse or partner, whatever, is the fact that you may begin to look at that person as like, it's always about them. It's always about them. Why is it always about them? Everything is about them. And you know what? Let's, let's, here's truth here. Here's the real talk. Like for somebody who is dealing with a panic with an anxiety disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia, since they are driven entirely by how they feel and a fear of how they feel and what they think, it is all about them. But they're not being selfish. So you need to accept and understand that this person, I mean, there are selfish people in the world. So it's possible that that person is a selfish person by nature, right? It's possible. But in the bounds of the disorder and what's driving their behavior, they are not trying to be selfish. This is not an ego thing that says, I want the world to revolve around me. Please revolve around me. They don't, they'd rather not really, but they can't help it. So yes, they are continually driven by being worried about what they're thinking and how they're feeling. So no matter what the event, they will turn it back into themselves. So like, oh no, I woke up this morning and the hot water heater broke and there was a flood in the basement.   They're not trying to be self-centered. They just take everything and reflect it right back inside and they focus inward on how does this make me feel? How do I feel now? How do I feel? How's my heart doing? How's my breathing? Am I tingling? Am I panicking? Am I nervous? So it's not being selfish. They don't want to do that. So you have to understand that, yes, probably you're getting resentful, especially if you're close to this person. This is your life partner in some way and you feel like, Jesus, everything revolves around them. If you help them through this process and understand like when you feel that, really the best thing to do is say like, okay, let's remember here, sit down quietly and rationally and say, I know that the hot water heater flooding is really stressful, but remember that stress doesn't have to become panic. Like you're taking this and turning it in on your, you're doing that thing again where you turn it in on yourself. Not, you're doing that thing where you're selfish. It's you're doing that thing again where you're focusing inward when really the problem is all the water in the basement. Let's focus on that and solve it and it'll get them out of that. Yeah, just have to try and keep their focus out of themselves. Right, the real problem here is that there's water in the basement. The problem is not that your heart is racing. So you have to gently remind them, you're doing that thing again where you're focusing on your cell. You're turning it inwards and it's not about that. It's about the water in the basement it's about the fact that the dog just ate dinner and we have to find a new dinner or whatever it is. We see this in the group a lot, people will go through like a very extreme thing. Like maybe like their grandpa just died and they were at their bedside when it happened and all this horrible stuff happened and all they're talking about is how they feel in it because they're having anxiety. And it's just like, whoa, why are you not like, it's more stressed about like the actual bad things that are happening.  But here's the good news is that every time they do that thing where they have a panic attack and you help them remember to relax into it and face it and accept it and surrender to it and they learn that thing and they make that progress. Down the road, down these six to eight months or however long it takes them, not only will they learn that when they have a panic attack like it's not such a big deal and that it doesn't like become, they don't start like avoiding all the stuff in their life to try and avoid it. So, but actually like the panic attacks will become less and less as well. And then all the other stuff like lifts it's like they're in a fog at the minute and it's not really quite them, you know like they're in there but like they're so in this fog they can't see outside of it. And when they make this journey and they go through these steps it all starts to lift and all the negative thoughts that they've been constantly bombarded with will start to lift and the rationality will come back and the sensitization, we call it sensitization where everything's like a trigger, everything, you know like- They're always scanning, always scanning, always scanning or they'll stop. A big, yeah, like a big loud noise as you chaired the football result. Like that's not gonna cause them to have a panic attack anymore. Like, you know, them, yeah. And in a way they'll stop being so-called the center of the universe. Like all of that will lift. So when you work together and help them get to that point where they're not afraid of how they feel anymore because that's in the end, that's what this is. The disorder is defined by being afraid of how you feel. So let's address it just for a second. Like, so we talked about in the first video it's not about take a pill, it's really not. Like sorry, if you're listening to us we're not about to take a pill. Many people are about to take a pill or find it or we're not. So deal with it. But it's also not about, it's not about just general anxiety.  It's not that the disorder happens when you become afraid of how you feel. You're constantly afraid of how you feel. And you change your life because of it. So remember that there's a big difference there and when they lose the fear of how they feel which is an irrational fear because how you feel isn't gonna hurt you and what you think doesn't hurt you. When they lose that, all of that stuff somehow changes. So if you can, and people say all the time, well, how do I deal with, how would I tackle going back to work? It's the same as how you tackle going to the supermarket. If you can't go to the supermarket, if you work on the supermarket it'll be easier to go to work. So and when you work on like walking, taking a two mile walk or whatever, a two kilometer walk around your neighborhood that you couldn't do six months ago, when you could do that, it's easier to go to the supermarket, the shopping mall and the school run to pick up the kids. So it all progresses at the same time because the object is just lose the fear. If you stop being afraid, everything else starts to fall into place.  Like my shoulder hurts it's probably because I hurt it in the gym and I'm not thinking anymore that, oh my God, that sends me into a total inwardly focused ball of anxiety. It doesn't anymore. So help them do the hard work and be patient and understanding and firm and compassionate at the same time. And it isn't about you, even though maybe this has really negatively impacted you for a very long time. If your person has sat you down to watch this video, then I think it probably means that they are ready to try something different. So do your best to forget the weeks, months, even years of like this has ruined my life or our life and like try to think of this as, okay, this is something new we're gonna try it out and it's proven it works so well. Like, okay, I'll get on board with this, I'll do it. Like you gotta buy it just so if anything else, like buy into this process and buy into it and help them buy into it. And like amazing things will happen. Not a miracle cure takes time, it's really hard. It's not a linear process, it's ups and downs but you know, there you go.  And I would say that this is good, like you guys could talk, like this maybe is a reason to start discussing things. And if there's questions, join the Facebook group or comment on the video and we always do our best to answer. I might not every day but I try and check my YouTube comments on a regular basis and like it's a discussion worth having because there is a light, like you have to understand that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah, well I'm gonna add one more thing is that like careful not to go down the route of like things that are solved or like you know, like shown to help for people, for stress is not the same thing as people suffer in anxiety.  Now, like you'll feel better because like all of these things you can help people with stress do not help people with an anxiety disorder. Do you know what I mean? Like this is really what we've been talking about the surrender and acceptance like if the person is suffering like panic attacks and agoraphobia and heightened anxiety to the point where it's changing their life a weighted blanket isn't gonna help them. It's really only this what we're talking about that will. So it's quite important to like maintain the focus on this like method. And the fact that you're dealing with an anxiety disorder you're not just dealing with worry or just anxiety with the term anxiety is so overused and misapplied in a lot of instances. But, you know, if your husband or wife is just concerned because they're having a hard time at work or they're guys having money issues and stuff like that that's different. So get them a weighted blanket if you want. That's totally fine. You know, whatever, like take St. John's board whatever you want to do that's a different thing that we're talking about here. And the one other thing that I want to add and I keep thinking about stuff is how they choose to go about this, right? And we talked about this by the way over and over with the actual sufferers themselves. I've done videos and all these things we've done them together. But all of the videos. Yes, watch them if you want. It might help you. Right. It might help you. That's exactly right. And I think trying to remember also that the root cause of that anxiety. A huge, huge, huge topic. And many people will say, well, let's talk about it. Let's just, you know, what's bothering you? So just the same way that Holly said, don't get a weighted blanket if you want but don't expect it to cure anything. Like that thing that says, well, something's that must mean that something is bothering you or you need to learn.  Like you need to just let it, let go. Just let it go. Let go of your past. Let go of what you're worrying about. That is not it. So the disorder is also defined when the anxiety is the source of the anxiety.  I was 19. Like I don't know. I still don't know what triggered that. Like I had a 4.0 grade point average. Everything was going great, but my parents also divorced when I was 10 years old.  There's a lot of stuff going on. Like, I don't know what it was, but it didn't matter because whatever caused that initial anxiety didn't matter anymore. The root cause is decoupled from the anxiety and the fear is now the source of the fear. So just like you might want to say, we'll come out to talk to our father Richard at church or, you know, a clergyman or a friend. They cannot talk their way out of this. So the original root cause of what caused that initial panic and anxiety no longer matters when they are back on their feet and living a normal life and can get out of the house and don't avoid panic anymore. By all means, maybe you want to work on life issues because we all have them. We all have baggage and issues, but the root cause, you have to get away from that because I've seen that a lot too. I've seen that a lot too. Don't force them to go and talk to a counselor that's just gonna sit them on a chair for 40 minutes once a week and ask how it's going. Yeah, once they've gotten over their anxiety disorder, they all need to spend their answer. Even at the same time, if you can, if you can manage it, there's nothing wrong with that. Those are good things to do. But it's super careful because I've seen people do that. My husband wants me to go to a therapist. He's not gonna help with the panic attacks and the sort of fog that they're living in. So get rid of the panic attacks, lift the fog and then you've got such more clarity to actually work on stuff for more of a psychological level. Yeah, an emotional level or there's trauma or all those things are real. We're not saying they're not real, but don't expect that your person should just go and see a counselor. Like you should just go see a counselor because some people will say go to the doctor and take a pill. Some people will say just go talk to a counselor, but it has to be the right counselor, like a behavioral therapist that specializes in treating anxiety disorders. So keep that in mind. Okay, I think I'm gonna have to go. No problem, we're all good. So thanks for tuning in, Holly. Thank you so much for taking the time. Super helpful. Find us wherever, Facebook, that anxietyguide.com is a start and you can find all the links from there. And comment, whatever questions you got, we'll answer them every weekend. Thanks Holly. And thank you guys for joining in. Bye.


As long as sports video games have been around, there's always been one lingering criticism. Why would you play a football, or baseball, or basketball, or hockey, or whatever game, when you can actually go outside and play it yourself? Alright, allow me to explain. When you're a fan of professional sports like I am, the gaming world offers kind of an alternate universe where you are in control of what happens. For example, I'm a Minnesota sports fan, which has not been fun for the past 25 years because none of the teams I root for have even been to the finals of their respective league in that time, or have let alone won a championship. So as a kid, being able to play a season of Madden as the Vikings, or a season of Griffey Baseball as the Twins, that allowed me to change that. And not only that, in some instances, you can even make trades or create your own players, like you could in NBA Live or the NHL series. Now, having said all that, that puts games based on stuff like Volleyball in a bit of a precarious position because, I mean, the professional Volleyball Circuit isn't exactly the most popular thing out there. So the same things that make the NFL, MLB, NBA, or NHL video games popular aren't going to apply to Volleyball games. Thankfully, the people behind games like Hyper V-Ball understand that, and they know just a regular old Volleyball game just isn't going to cut it. Yeah, there's 12 international men's teams and 8 international women's teams, but most importantly, there's 8 robot teams that play in a robot league where they can evidently play God with physics. I mean, come on, this isn't just Volleyball, this is Hyper V-Ball. The action takes place strictly from a 2D perspective, and the format follows a traditional Volleyball structure for the most part, where you serve, save, set, and spike, and the game provides 4 different types of set passes and spikes depending on which direction on the D-pad you're holding, and it actually works pretty well. You can also defend and block a spike as well, which is just as simple as timing your jump correctly. The only real issue with the gameplay is that it's pretty dang slow-paced. On one hand, that works from a strategic standpoint since you can aim your spikes for a gap in the defense. On the other hand, your opponent tends to repeat the same patterns over and over and over again, so games can really drag at times. The controls are really simple. You press A to jump, and then Y at the right time to serve or spike, but you really have to be spot on with your timing because it's easy to whiff. If you're playing in the robot league, you can also press the Y button on spikes to put a little English on the ball, so to speak. In a funny touch, you can also press the L button during the game to get comments from your coach. Nothing here, she says, is all that insightful, but it's still pretty funny to see. I've also read that the R button substitutes players, but I have to plead ignorance on that one because this game shares the same problem as, say, Bill Lambert's Combat Basketball. I can't tell one player apart from another. You can hit a ball so hard into another robot, however, that it has to be removed from the game. In fact, you eventually get to the point where you can take out so many players that the other team has to forfeit, so that spices things up a bit. My favorite bit, though, is probably the robot ref, who actually talks trash when you mess up. Hyper V-Ball was developed by Video System. Geez, you think your name is generic enough? And they also made the F1 Grand Prix series for the Super Nintendo, as well as Arrow Fighters, and each of those games range from OK to pretty dang good, so they got a pretty good track record. Still, Hyper V-Ball is just OK at best. The robot league stuff is cool, but they really could have done a lot more with it, and the pace of play is just way too slow. Plus, playing against the computer can get pretty boring, because the patterns are so repetitive. It feels like you're just doing the exact same thing over and over. But still, I gotta say, if for whatever reason you're jonesing for a 16-bit volleyball game, then Hyper V-Ball, uh, well, it's not great, but it's not terrible either. And it's decent enough with a second player, so there you go. Alright, I want to thank you for watching, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.


Hey everyone, Dr. O here. So if you want better sleep you have to answer this question, to nap or not to nap. So what if you've done all that you can to get a good night's sleep? Where does napping fit into a healthy sleep lifestyle? I get questions about naps all of the time. The problem is there is no right or wrong answer when it comes to naps. It is highly individualized and personal. Naps are like supplements. They can't replace the real deal a good night's sleep, but they can help fill in the gaps. So a lot of cultures, including traditional hunter-gatherer cultures, would sleep or slept six to seven hours at night and then took a siesta in the afternoon. You can make an argument that that is how we are designed to sleep biologically. This sleep pattern would help avoid being too active during the hottest part of the day. But if it doesn't fit into most of our schedules, right, to sleep and have a siesta, unless you live in a place where there is a siesta culture, so a close second would be one solid block of seven to nine hours of sleep per night. But if naps and siestas are so good, why might they also be a bad idea? It all has to do with adenosine. So you haven't heard of this yet in the course, but we'll talk about in a few other places as well. So adenosine is a waste product of your metabolism. Think of it like the sand in this sleep hourglass. The longer you've been awake, the more metabolically active you've been, the more adenosine is going to build up. And this leads to what's called sleep pressure. So sleep pressure is caused by the buildup of adenosine while you are awake. So the longer you've been awake and the more physically active you've been, the more your metabolism has been churning away, the more you're going to be building up this adenosine. And adenosine is one of the main signals that tells you to go to sleep. So here's the rub. Napping lowers adenosine levels by flushing it out of your system. This is why naps can make you less tired. But this could also be why you're having trouble falling asleep at night after taking a nap.  So you might not be able to build up enough sleep pressure to go to sleep at night. What about caffeine? So you'll see later. We'll talk about caffeine in great detail later, but caffeine blocks adenosine. It doesn't remove it, right? So caffeine hides adenosine from your brain temporarily, whereas napping actually flushes it out of your system. So caffeine should be able to decrease how tired you feel without impacting your sleep in the same way that naps would as long as the caffeine is out of your system by bedtime. Because you don't want to be flushing out too much adenosine to have trouble sleeping at night. But you also don't want to be hiding adenosine with caffeine when you're trying to sleep at night. So stay tuned for a lot more about caffeine. So here's a study. What does the science say? Napping in college students and its relationship with nighttime sleep. This is a study of 440 college students. And the students that had the poorest nighttime sleep quality had these issues here. They reported taking three or more naps per week. Number one. Number two. Those who napped for more than two hours at a time. And number three. Those who napped late, which meant between 6 and 9 p.m. So basically, the more napping rules you break, the worse naps are for you. Another study. Risk of napping, excessive daytime sleepiness, and mortality in an older community population. So this study found that older adults who napped frequently had lower quality nighttime sleep. They were flushing adenosine out of your system and then it wasn't there when they needed it to go to bed at night. They also had more symptoms of depression and they had less physical activity. They were also more likely to be overweight or obese than the people who rarely took a nap. Another one. Association of nap frequency with hypertension or ischemic stroke supported by prospective cohort data and Mendelian randomization in predominantly middle-aged European subjects. So this is a very important observational study because it showed that frequent or usual daytime napping in adults was associated with a 12% higher risk of high blood pressure or hypertension and a 24% higher risk of having a stroke compared to people that never napped. Results also showed that if napping frequency increased by one category, which means that people went from never napping to sometimes napping or sometimes napping to usually napping, their risk of high blood pressure increased by 40%. So needing naps increased risk of high blood pressure and stroke, needing more naps increased risk of high blood pressure even more. So what is this saying? What is this really saying though? Studies that show that napping is bad for you are really missing the point. I would argue that needing to nap is bad for you because it means you slept poorly the night before. If you had a great night of sleep the night before, you wouldn't need to nap. So here's the key. If napping makes you feel better and doesn't hurt your sleep at night, then go for it. If napping makes your sleep worse at night in any way, then stop immediately. You don't want to trade a nap for poor sleep that night. So the key is honestly though trial and error. I can't tell you what to do here. Personally, I am a terrible napper like this person here. I stare at the ceiling and then I give up. And if I do fall asleep, I feel worse when I wake up. So if you are going to try napping, what do you do? The ideal length of a nap is between 10 and 26 minutes. A 1995 study done by NASA said that 26 minutes was ideal. So why so short? Well, if you sleep a few minutes, that can restore your nervous system. But the longer you sleep, now your body is like, oh, we're going to bed. So now hormone levels are going to shift. And if you start changing hormone levels, it takes a long time for them to come back. That's me when I wake up from a nap. I have this massive amount of sleep inertia that I have to overcome, which is why I feel worse. So short naps are better. 10 to 26 minutes is ideal. Another interesting strategy is to have some caffeine before your nap to help you be more alert when you wake up from it. Just be super careful with caffeine in the afternoon. Right, we'll talk about caffeine a lot more later. When else is napping a good idea? We've already talked about one. It's better to stick to your normal wake-up time on the weekend and then take a short nap during the day if you need to. So if you do stay up later on Friday or Saturday night, for example, still wake up at your normal wake-up time and then use a nap sometime early in the day to make up for that loss of sleep. That's another time when naps are a good idea. Here's a really important time for naps. So another tip. If you're chronically sleep-deprived, like a parent with young children, then get your sleep whenever you can. So I love this quote here. People who say they sleep like a baby usually don't have one. Anyone that's ever been a parent knows what that's talking about. Here's the key. Naps are only bad if they replace a good night of sleep. If you're not going to get a good night of sleep anyhow, then take your naps whenever possible. If naps are helping and possible, don't stop taking them unless you are going to make up for it by getting more sleep at night. There's some research about what happened in Greece where they kind of got rid of the siesta culture, so they were used to sleeping six hours at night and then taking their siesta in the afternoon. They removed the siesta and their health got worse because they didn't replace the nap by sleeping seven to nine hours at night. They were still sleeping six hours at night, but then they were no longer taking their nap. So if naps are helping and possible, use them and don't stop taking them unless it improves your sleep quality and you plan on getting better sleep at night. So what are the key takeaways here?  Naps are most effective if they are short, they're early in the day, and they have zero impact on your sleep quality at night. So you have to decide if naps are a good idea for you or if they're helpful for you or not. Action steps. Follow these napping tips to improve the quality of your sleep. So make them short 10 to 26 minutes, make them early in the day, make sure they're not impacting your sleep, and make sure they help you. So use them if they help you. Avoid them if they don't. Add this to your sleep journal. On days that you nap, do you feel better? On days that you nap, do you sleep worse that night? These are all things you need to know to determine where naps should fit in your life. All right, I hope this helped. Have a wonderful day. Be blessed.


Okay we're back we're live looking to the east looking to Japan looking to Kobe Japan with Steve Zurcher and today we're gonna talk about the most remarkable band in Japan in the last 10 years and let me tell you the name is AKB48 AKB48 hi Steve it's so nice to talk to you thank you so much Jay it's a great can you can you tell us why you have a teacher in Gansai Gadai University in business and entrepreneurship would like to talk about a band of young women why what interests you about them I'm not a fan of this okay the first time I made the videos was was to prepare for this discussion with you Jay but you teach a marketing class I do that every semester at Gansai Gadai and I have the students do a case study on Asian pop music and the economic impact that has in Korea in China and in Japan and how that has with the dominance of Western music and on the international scene it's usually Western music that dominates and Japanese people Korean people Chinese people all our fans of Western music and over the last maybe 20 years there's been a growing phenomenon of the success of Asian music probably the best example of that in the last 10 years is a Korean song and I'm sure Jay you probably may remember this it was called Ganyam style by a kind of a low-level Korean musician named so it was not well known in this country but he released this video and it went viral I checked this morning before our call and 3.5 million oh jeez with a beat 3.5 million views that's something that's as popular as popular as some of us as popular as think take away I'm not Jay absolutely yes exactly anyway yeah I've been doing this case study in the class on Asian pop and one of the things that we look at is Japan pop music which has not been so successful internationally as Korean music has there's this example of Ganyam style and also there's a band from Korea right now that has international success is actually very popular in America it's called BTS that's a boy band so that's like one direction or I don't know how familiar Jay you are with boy bands and girl bands I'm kind of guessing maybe not yes full disclosure I know nothing about it okay so AKB48 started just about 10 years ago and it's the creation of a marketing genius basically he and this guy was in the music industry and what he would do was create a very large group of young women and form them into a band well AKB48 and 48 is indicating the number of people that are in the band although I read that they actually have over a hundred affiliated with this band maybe they have rotating membership so they have touring bands as well so just about 10 years ago he created this and they produced their very first song and it became a huge hit the reason why this is so interesting from a marketing perspective is that Japan has had a history of successful what they call idol these are pop musicians that become very famous but they're huge from a distance you see them in the concerts but they don't really interact with their band directly and the genius behind this particular band is that he made these idols these females in the band accessible to the public so they were performed on a nightly basis in a theater in Akihabara which is kind of the tech area of Tokyo and then after that if you had the proper ticket or you prayed the right sheet you'd actually be able to interact you could meet the girls that were your favorite in this band this is the first time anybody had done this type of thing making the talent making these idols making these pop stars available to the fans at various meetings and so forth and it just took off they have sold 60 million CDs over the last 10 years they're the most popular female high-end in Japan ever they're the second most popular band in Japan ever just to give you a context maybe Jay are you a Led Zeppelin fan by any chance no I'm sorry I would have to disclose no on that one that one as well okay well I am I'm a Led Zeppelin fan and they're one of the most famous in all that they have sold worldwide the equivalent number of records 60 million the AKB in Japan primarily has sold the equivalent number of records or CDs as Led Zeppelin which is an internationally famous band you know from the 1970s and 1980 yeah in a longer period of time actually that they use Led Zeppelin much longer period much longer period of time let me let me ask you a question about you know sorry AKB sounds like Akibara doesn't it sound like the neighborhood AKB what does it stand for yeah that's you're probably right Jay that's a very good guess I'm not sure but I would say that that's probably where it comes from because they set up a theater in Akibara and rather than having you know tours and periodic shows they actually perform every night and their fans can get access and see them so incredible so you know you say that you say that there's originally 48 48 young ladies but in fact many more than that and I guess my question is it how does this promoter handle over the last 10 years how does he handle the comings and goings because if you want to make them iconic you want to make each one you know a darling of the generation so to speak and I and I guess it's the millennial generation mostly but what happens when they leave what happens when he replaces them Jay as usual you're asking excellent questions so the guy who created this his name's Akimoko he figured out that what he could do to generate interest in this band is that the general public here Japan to see all of these different girls and every year he would have an election and ask the fans to vote for their favorite so the girls ended up being ranked you know like a college football team or like American Idol or something like that so it's a mixture of top music and marketing and democracy or voting so every year there be the number one girl the number two girl the number three girl and this would generate more interest in the band the number of people who vote in the elections was just astronomical it's national music whatever this tally was finally reported and then as you asked in the question when these girls they're targeting maybe like 17 18 for like 22 23 when the girls begin to get 24 25 they're kind of aging out of the age limitations that are set up on the band so if the girls are particularly popular they are given like a goodbye party or a goodbye celebration some have gone on to create their own independent careers but to use that aspect when the girls graduated quote unquote the band that turned into a major marketing event as well so it's all about marketing figured out okay this is how Japanese pop music works the pop idols are not accessible all make these girls accessible he writes the music for them so these girls who are 18 years old are singing songs written by a 60 year old guy and he's controlled all aspects of this and I can't imagine how much money he's made it's just been a phenomenal amount well I noticed they're all marketing promotion all of them are good-looking and young and well in a well-dressed pretty they present very well but you know query are they are they talented today can they actuals actually sing is the music worth listening to or is that sort of secondary it's like the secondary that's tertiary or maybe even Twitter down you know this is again my opinion Japanese pop music is almost unlistable in most instances there are some exceptions there's some very good Japanese singers and so forth but usually this type of music when we Westerners hear it it's almost almost borders on torture but that's not the point the point is they're cute you can meet them you know you can vote for them and so forth just to show you how maybe extreme the market goes about five years ago it came up with this campaign and basically was called make a baby with AKB 48 which I know you've been married a long time you're not in the single dating pool but there are services full disclosure right Jay all right yes full disclosure okay there are dating services where you can send your picture in and then match it with a picture of a prospective woman that you want to go out on and then they'll merge your pictures together and have a picture of what your baby potentially would look like so AKB 48 did this and ran a campaign if you became an AKB club member which is like maybe 15 or $20 a month you can send your picture to the website with the girl that you like the most and then they would send you back a picture showing what potentially your son or your daughter would look like if you were to have a child with this girl oh my god oh my god it's facial recognition it's AI it's artificial intelligence yeah exactly so they were yeah doing photo matching so this ran like 2011 2012 I remember catching it in the news services I talked about it with my students and most of them are grossed out about it but anyway that just showed the extent of the marketing to try to get the fans involved and let's engage your question before you think that the band base for this band would be younger women but actually it's not it's older guy so they create a fantastic relationship with AKB 48 members and then they say okay buy the CV buy the membership the club membership buy the ticket that allows you to go and meet these girls you can meet your favorite one there which I guess would be a big thrill if you're really interested in that and as a result the number of sales per individual rather than just buy one TV they would buy one or two or three or four then they would go to their favorite girl to try and increase our ranking in this annual election and so forth so there was one guy who bought 530 CDs and AKB 48 one guy it's remarkable well you know what I would like to study with you Steve I would like to study this from the point of view of you know the marketing namely the identification of those elements in the Japan community in the Japan culture that would that will allow this to happen where this guy he said to himself well I I want to take advantage I want to I'm an opportunist I want to take advantage of these aspects of Japan culture and I want to market around that and recreate this and make all this money and I would like you know you know a sort of a discussion if you don't mind with you in the classroom and you have your students and you're trying to identify what is it exactly that the guy what is the magic the secret sauce let's take a short break Steve and we'll come back and look we'll analyze this from an academic point of view right we'll be right back hello I'm Mufi Hanuman I want to tell you about a great show that appears on Think Tech Hawaii it's all about tourism in fact we call it tourism 101 where we talk about the issues and challenges that faces our number one industry throughout the state we'll have some interesting guests very informative dialogue and allow you an opportunity to maybe learn a little bit more by why this industry is so 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Aloha my name is Victoria and I'm a host at the Adventures in Small Business this is a collaboration between US Small Business Administration Hawaii District Office and its partners where we showcase the stories of local entrepreneurs and small businesses talk about how to start a business talk about great tips for small business owners please join us every Thursday 11 a.m. at Think Tech Hawaii. See you soon Mahalo. Yeah looking to the east with Steve Zercher who joins us by phone from Kobe Japan and we're talking about a band there called AKB48 Akihabara neighborhood AKB48 which is a ladies only women only young women only band that is extraordinarily successful through some really brilliant marketing in Japan so can you talk about can we sort of you know unpack exactly what the promoter is looking at in order to achieve this extraordinary popularity I think there's a couple of cultural phenomenon that are behind there the one is that there is kind of a graduation of young women in Japan and kind of a commercialization of this it's connected with a sense of a cuteness it's called kawaii so women in Japan and also men in Japan like to see the women that are depicted in the pictures that you've shown here like AKB48 so you see that in multiple areas in Japanese culture so I think this band is based on that general preference to look at and enjoy looking at I guess younger women usually in 18th at 24 year old range so but then on top of that what he's built is a marketing mechanism a marketing strategy that takes advantage of this cultural sense of cultural distinction in Japan and allows as I mentioned before access to these idols so they become idols not just in a remote sense but in an engaged sense so that you really are interested in meeting these girls you can at these various events so it's a kind of led way Japanese pop blue over the last 10 years there's lots of knockoff bands that are very similar now in Japan they're nowhere near as successful as AKB48 but there's and I think they have been in categories there's the A level bands the B level bands and the C level bands and you can see them at various retail stores or restaurants they're used to promote products and services of all kinds so you need changed how marketing is being done when it came to Japanese pop music with Japanese idol music I think it's brilliant he managed to touch you know essential elements of the Japanese culture as it exists today all the things you and I have talked about in Japan how the young people and maybe not so young people you know see others how they get along together and frankly it sounds like it's a it's a Japanese only type of cultural a cultural environment where this kind of marketing would only work in Japan for example if you applied this in the US first thing I would think about is is me too isn't this you know somehow demeaning women and the other aspect as you say they can only go to a certain age well isn't this age discrimination of a sort I really wonder I mean I'm not to say that those are serious legal obstacles but they're they're cultural obstacles anyway in the US and maybe the same approach wouldn't work here what do you think I agree with you they do have a series of different bands that are similar to AKB48 and they're marketed by the same company but they're all in Asia so there's one in Indonesia there's one in Thailand and so forth so AKB48 has gone to America and participated in concerts there or various celebrations of some sort like there's one reference I had they went to Washington DC in 2012 to celebrate the 110th anniversary of the cherry blossom the cherry trees that are in Washington DC that were given by the Japanese government so they go on there but they really have not caught on and I definitely agree with you that the reason AKB48 has not taken off in America is are the cultural elements of this Japan you know from a Western perspective if you look at the success of women in the Japanese business environment it's quite limited Japan is still struggling with equality when it comes to allowing women to have equal access to higher level positions and so forth a number of managers in Japan is quite low relatives in the United States a number of high-level executives it's below 5% number of women on director levels on the board is below 1% so Japan I don't I want to be culturally sensitive here but from our perspective these women in a much different way than we do it with a more of a sense of women's roles or more strictly defined to home-based types of activities are certainly this marketing element of young women and you could say exploitation of young women that's something that is accepted here in Japan and you don't get pushed back on the Mitu phenomenon it's not really occurred in Japan there are some instances of women doing going after women of men who have harassed them there's a couple high profile faces but it's nothing like what's occurred in the United States what strikes me I think I'm nearly at Japan what strikes what strikes me I was gonna was gonna ask you about was this you know the the magic here it's not it's not the only magic but one of the significant magic tricks involved in this is the notion of voting for your favorite and although you know the view of women at different in Japan in the US and maybe in Europe too but the idea of voting for your favorites and having some some kind of internet connection with your favorite member of the band I think to some extent that exists here already I mean having an internet connection with the favorite member of the band but voting for them that's really kind of that's kind of interesting and I and I suggest to you Steve that that kind of engagement could work in the US I don't know about the other things they sound very Japan centric but the idea of picking one or picking one out of a group of candidates I mean we're into that aren't we with the national elections aren't we we we're into picking candidates and if the promoter gets up and says well I want to add somebody to the band you decide who it is this is like so many of those shows where they when they vote for the talent right and I think this is this is a right pomegranate in the US this could work in the US no no I think if we look at our current president there's a certain element of this kind of fan support right so in Japan the AKB fan army and the other bands have dedicated fans who go to these events and join the clubs and vote for the members and so forth so we have a president in the United States who had a core group of followers who are somewhat similar to the fans of AKB 48 and they're dedicated to him and supportive of him and no matter what they're going to vote for him so I think some of this marketing phenomenon that's going to apply to AKB 48 you can see in the United States maybe at the election level also some bands or some artists I mentioned to you earlier that take Taylor Swift so she sells regular CDs but she also sells elective and within those elective they're her personal journals so she's beginning to share herself in the same sense the AKB 48 members share themselves with their fans so she adopted that policy to sell TV that a higher value and also Travis Scott who's a rapper he's quite popular right now he's an ugly merchandise with his music as well so some of the popular American idols American pop stars are doing something similar to AKB 48 but not as wild and not as extended and you know doesn't involve the voting aspect that at least and Taylor Swift is one just one individual star and Travis Scott is just one individual star I don't know in America I can't really think of an equivalent band where there'd be like 30 members you know the power power back in the old days but you know usually bands are smaller maybe this would apply to some of the boy bands you know they could have voting for which member that the girls thought was the cutest of the nicest and so forth and then that would maybe encourage greater connection sales the CDs and so forth for these boy band I think this is this is part of sort of a global evolution to connect social media with music and talent and and icons you know like this iconic people and you know it's never been as much as it is now but I mean oh I think I think we have to look to the future of it and certainly it has made a huge impression and been usually successful in Japan I think maybe this kind of thing will happen elsewhere in sort of European cultures but my question to you is is this is this a fad because in Japan we know they have fads and they don't last all that long in this case it's lasted yeah improved for 10 years but it still may be a fad and if it is a fad yeah when will it decline and what will it evolve to what will be the next step and you know in this trans this transition to internet hyphen entertainment hyphen music hyphen politics yeah maybe coming to an end so this year the band announced that for the first time they would have the general election where the fans can vote for the individual members so it could be that this is coming to an end or beginning maybe the guy who created this is saying okay we've had a great one for ten years and I've made you know half a billion dollars off of this so we know how much money he's made I'm sure it's a huge amount so it may be we need to wind down in Japan so what's after that I don't know I know about AKB 48 because of my marketing interest I don't pay much attention to Japanese pop music I can actually this case study I'm doing it on Wednesday here in Japan so I'll ask the class members I think all of them a third of AKB 48 the foreigners I mean you're inundated you can I go literally anywhere in Japan without seeing something from AKB 48 on the trains billboards music on TV there's just music with it so but they do in team being to wind down I can ask my class what they think would be coming up behind it we're almost out of time Steve almost out of time I yeah I would be interested in knowing the other the other thing here is I want to thank you for introducing me to the subject because as I disclosed earlier I know nothing about bands either in Japan or in the United States and now I feel that I am enriched that I know a lot more and I think you and I have something more in common now we both know at least a little bit about these bands and maybe maybe next time for our next show we can we can sing together Steve you know we hope for us gay there's a band that's a kind of middle-aged guy and they tour at various what they're called old sense are you can in the old sense or their outdoor Springs yes and the target market is this band older women and I saw them on TV so there's Steve middle-aged guys and they have a tremendous fan base of middle-aged women so it's not limited strictly to women young women you and I we could actually form a band and maybe we could be successful here in Japan okay Steve Steve Zercher hold that thought you never know what will happen Steve Zercher thank you so much look forward to our next discussion in the meantime you take care