Hello, everyone, welcome. We're so excited to have this conversation with all of you and three fantastic playwrights on demystifying the playwriting process. I'm Danielle Latopoul, artistic director of Rattlestick. And before we do anything at all, we wanna take a moment and read a Global Land Acknowledgement. We are hosted by Rattlestick Playwrights Theater whose physical space stands on the unceded lands of the Lenape people. As an online event that addresses global issues, we recognize that in countless places in the world, native peoples were abused, murdered, and forcibly removed from their lands by ideals and actions of land discovery and settler colonization. We recognize and respect all of the native peoples all over the world and invite every individual in this event to investigate the history of the land on which they stand and their native peoples. Colonization is an ongoing process that still harms and destroys lives and cultures. Let us honor, respect, and hold the open space for all native peoples past, present, and future. This acknowledgement demonstrates a commitment to dismantle the ongoing legacies of settler colonism. And if folks who are joining wanna take a moment and just put in the chat what lands you're calling from or viewing from, that would be really special. And we are so honored to be hosting this wonderful conversation with HowlRound. And these three wonderful playwrights are all Mellon playwrights in residence. And we are honored and fortunate to have Basil as the playwright in residence of Rattlestick. So without further ado, I'm going to turn things over to Basil who will guide us through this next hour. Okay, great, thank you, Daniela. So this talk was proposed as sort of an attempt to have a kind of a casual conversation instead of a maybe more directed normal the way we usually have a talk back session. So this is Madeleine, Corey, and I. We've come up with three questions for each other about playwriting process, questions we'd like to ask another playwright. And none of us know at this point what each other's questions are. So that'll be a little bit of a surprise and maybe we have some the same questions, I don't know. But I know for me just coming up with the questions made me really reflect and think on my process. I don't know, did you too have that experience too? Yes, I would say yes. Yeah. Yeah, it made me sort of become a little introspective about the whole thing and think about it. I don't think you usually think about it that much. Yeah. Yeah, it put me in touch with some sadness that I have around playwriting at this moment, which I feel like I'm skating over the top of a little bit a lot. And in thinking about what I wanted to reach out to you two about, I was like, I touched some emotional, yeah, some emotional nerves. But I mean, they're calm questions, don't worry. But I realized I was like, oh, I'm so excited to talk to two playwrights right now. Like. Yeah. So we'll share our questions with each other and to see where that conversation leads and then make sure that we have time for you all to ask any questions you might have about process or anything that came up in the conversation. All right, so should I lead the first question? All right. This might be my best question. It might be downhill. Okay, so also it might be a little bleak. But I was reading, I read an article like a couple of weeks ago, I think. And it was one of those kind of horrible Bloomberg articles about like career stuff. And this one was about having, it was the topic of it was creating a new career at like in your sixties. So it was kind of, and then it listed the three things that psychiatrists say you need to be able to start a career, I guess. And one of them was passion, which had then said peaked in your twenties. And then the next one was, I think they called it the ability to learn something new but basically brain processing speed, which also peaked in your twenties. And then the third one was grit. And it talks about how grit continues to grow as you age. Your grit actually gets like stronger. And I don't know why it made, wait, what? You have no choice but to use your grit before your project is in decline.  And something kind of struck me as feeling very true. All of that. And it made me think about grit and in process. And I was kind of curious, do you feel like that assessment is true? And if so kind of where does grit lie in your process? How do you use it? I'll just say that I often say about the theater, which I'm gonna refer to as if it's an alive and ongoing thing. I feel like the way to have a career in the theater is not to quit the theater. Like that's the number one thing you can do is just not quit. And most people feel like that means you should, you have to feel great about it all the time. But a lot of people that I know in the theater want to quit every day or say they're going to and if they don't, then they're in the theater. And like that's the difference. So for me, and I spent easily two decades like every day being like don't quit, don't quit. Or I'm gonna quit, I'm gonna quit, but then waking up the next day and still being a playwright. So I feel like to me grit is a hugely important component of writing plays, which is important because I don't, I'm way better playwright now than I was 25 years ago. I'm glad I didn't quit. I wasn't, you know, and I hope that at 25 years from now if I'm lucky enough to be still alive and writing then my plays will be better. So I don't know what else can you ask for? Cory, do you have a more enlightened idea? I mean, I don't know if it's gonna be any more enlightened or more eloquent, but I would agree with that. I was just thinking actually, I mean, it's sort of related, but it's not related. But years ago, and I've talked about this a few times and I don't remember where I saw it, but there was a letter that Jose Rivera had written to playwrights. Do you remember this? I think maybe it was in the Dramatist magazine or I don't know where American theater, it was somewhere.  But anyway, the thing that he said that I always, like that I remembered was the minute you finish writing one play immediately begin the next one.    So if you can't like handle those things, you're not gonna be able to make it. And so I think as you've done it, it just becomes, you know, second nature almost just, you know, accept those things. So I think it just becomes easier and you become better at it because you then focus more on your work, I think. I mean, I feel like there's playwriting offers this incredible lucky balance of like the more you do it, God willing, the wiser you are about it and the more you're, like the more you're able to start the next one right after the last one, you know? But then at the same time, I never feel like I know what the hell I'm doing, not ever, especially not at the beginning of a play, but that's lucky in a way. Like that's the kind of thing that will support your neural plasticity thing Basil that you're talking about. Like your cognition can never go into a decline because you're always like, wait, what? You're always learning. And I feel like I always say that also to younger writers, like leave your mastery for like something else. Like this isn't where I look for mastery. I never imagined that I'll be excellent at doing it, but I can always be engaging. I can always be at the very front edge of what I wanna know and think about and learn and understand. Nice. Yep. Are you gonna answer your question or? Oh, should I? Yeah. Yeah. I didn't have an answer for it, but I was thinking about how sometimes, I guess I was thinking on a more, my new level of like taking grit to just literally write sometimes, you know, and that I agree with everything you're saying. And I feel like the older I'm getting, the better I'm getting at writing.  There's something about that sometimes it's like, it isn't passion. Sometimes it isn't just like warp speed in a zone. Sometimes it just takes grit to like get to it, even when you don't feel like it. And that's like always a struggle, but yeah, and that's totally necessary. This is not on my list of prepared questions, but I feel like if we are allowed to like have a, what's the word in the debate? Like it's not a rebuttal, it's like a follow-up. Do you, it sounds like I don't have a lot of pleasure in the act of writing like this thing. It's filled with negative feelings for me. Basil, it sounds a little bit like, maybe that's true for you. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Do you ever have delight? Do you have delight in writing or no? I don't. In fact, it's almost unpleasant really. It's a kind of an unpleasant experience, especially a first draft is horrifying for me. After that, then I enjoy it more. I think I enjoy rewrites more than the first draft. I actually kind of enjoy rewrites actually. Yeah.  That sounds rough. Yeah. I was on a silent playwriting retreat once with the playwright Adam Bach. And so we were all sitting together, not speaking for many days on end and writing plays.  It was so amazing to watch him be like, ha, ha, ha, ha. Like I was like, what is that like? What if you just delight yourself and fill yourself with joy with your own writing? I never have been able to achieve it, but I feel like it's a goal. That would be so nice. That's happened with me where I laughed and laughed through something. And but I mean, I pretty much at that time really would think like, this is the most horrible thing in the world. Nobody's ever going to see it. So then I like was able to just like let go and do it for myself sort of. Were you laughing because you thought it was so horrible?  You know, like horrible and all that. So it was like, oh, who cares anyway? And I just started like trying to entertain myself. I feel like I, characters have surprised me and made me laugh like occasionally. How are we doing? Are we doing like one, two, three or should we go around and like? I think we should do rounds. Yeah. You want to go next, Madeline? No, of course I should go next. Okay. All right. I mean, that kind of feels like it was segwaying into one of my later questions. Not that there's an order actually, but I think I'm going to jump to that question that I was going to ask, which was what is the biggest surprise that you've ever had while writing a play? Wow. If you've had one. Everyone thinks the live stream is broken, but it's actually. I mean, I've had a whole, I've had a character, a play turned from a five-hander to a three-hander in a single rewrite. That was a real shocker. I mean, no one on the outside, it didn't make any difference to the spinning world, but like it made a big difference to me. I was like, oh, it's a whole different ball game. There's got to be something interesting on that. Corey, that's such a hard question because I'm feeling in all my surprises, but the details aren't coming to me. Well, it's like where maybe you thought, I mean, I've literally sat there getting ready to type on the thing and think I was about to type one thing and I literally typed something else and been surprised. So that kind of thing has surprised me or like all of a sudden something will happen and I'm like, now what? Because it feels almost like I'm out of control of it or something and been shocked myself and not knowing what to do, like I have to get up and walk around or like, oh my God, do you know that kind of thing? So I don't know, maybe I'm just weird and this happens to me. So I just wondered if anything like that had ever happened. I definitely feel like that has definitely happened. Although I don't have the details of like what exactly that was, but I know things have happened where I'll suddenly learn something about a character because of something they've said that is like a really surprising. Also, I feel like surprises have happened in understanding the play. It's written, I'm in rehearsal, we're having a conversation with actors and suddenly I'm aware of my play in a totally new, surprising way that I wasn't. That's another good one, yeah. I feel like this is a sign of great artistic and spiritual health to be able to be surprised by your own writing. Like to me, that signals like a kind of a quiet ego and a very strong integrated soul that's like through which like your art is moving. And I go to this length to describe it because this is not a description of how I live inside my head, but it is a description of how I'd like to be. I feel like that if you're capable of being surprised by your own, what you generate, it must be that what you generate is coming from a source that is at once exactly you and much, much greater than you. And that just seems so beautiful and wonderful. So much more exciting than just being like, I feel like we don't need these two characters. Those are important and surprising things too though. Anyway, it's really about, that's really like an ego question, you know? Yeah. Corey, did you, are you satisfied with those answers? Yeah, that's fine. I mean, it made me wanna ask other questions, but that's okay, I'll wait because there's some of the other ones. But can you, you can ask one more and then I'll all do two or ten. I mean, yeah, because one of the other things I was gonna ask was because, and I guess maybe like this, and it is tied in because it's kind of a surprise thing. I guess I kind of sometimes feel like, oh, well maybe you're weird because these kinds of things happen to you when you're writing. The other thing that I do that I don't know that a lot of other people do is I don't write from a plan. Like I don't really know what I'm gonna write before I write. So I was, one of my questions was going to be how do you know when you're ready to start writing something? Because I don't like outline or know exactly, stuff comes up as I'm writing and then I'll have to like research what is this. So I understand what it is I'm writing about because I didn't know I was gonna write about that in advance sort of thing. So a lot of it is like that sort of, it's like in process and in real time in a way. So I think a lot of people write from plans or knowing exactly what they're gonna write. I know one person told me they always write the last scene first and then they write from the beginning to lead there and they never have changed their last scene ever. That's where they started. I mean that they start with the end and I was like, oh my goodness, I don't think I could do that. But I do know that I can't, I mean there's a point where I begin but then I just like don't know where I'm going either. Was it David Mann who told you that? No, it was Lynn Nottage actually. Really? Yes. Basil? Yes. I don't, I never start with a plan. Okay. I may have something I'm thinking about, you know like some kind of an idea about what I want to write about or I might have a place like a location but then I just stick people in and see what happens. And then I learn what I'm writing about as I'm going, like what you're saying, where I'll have to stop and research something. Right. I asked this question, Susan Laurie Parks came to my school when I was in grad school and there was a thing where we could ask questions and I said, do you always plan? Because I didn't, you know, and I was curious. And then she, every question everybody asked she turned back to a question to them and she said, what do you do when you're about to go on a road trip? And I didn't, I was like, get in the car. I was kind of going through all the things but what she was trying to get me to say was I get a map. So I assume that she probably has a plan. Yeah, I've never, I mean, for TV and film I do because I have to, people... You have to, which is stressful, I find. Yeah, and it's a whole different kind of writing. Yeah, it's very stressful for me to like come up with an outline. Like I'm always like, this is so anti-writing for me because I don't know what I'm going to be writing. How can I tell you what it's going to be? So it feels very, like I'm very, very stressful. Yeah. Yeah, well, you end up getting notes on your promise. You know what I mean? Right, yeah. Like this, and then they're like, or could it be different? You're like, I haven't done it yet. How do you know how good it would be like? Right. What about you, Madeline? I don't have plans because of this thing that we're talking about it but although that road trip analogy is a good one because like if you have a map, you haven't been on the trip yet. You know what I mean? Well, that's true, yeah. But I feel like I start when I, I have sort of two kinds of ways in. I have like an inside out version of wanting to write a play where I have like a basically like an emotional, oppressing emotional question that I can't, something that I can't deal with very well in my life. I'm writing into that. And then I have an outside in version where there is like a gimmick or a structure or some image from the world that I'm drawn to and that I wanna work. And then the, you know, so those are, they're kind of like two totally different approaches, really. One of them is like generates energy or heat and intensity and attracts things to it.  So they're not really the same. But do you, but do you have the two things like when you're starting play?  Yeah, I think that, and that would be like when I start, like that's what I can tell you. Like I have, like I'm working on a play right now and I can say that there's only one character in it and that it's about birds and epistemology and like what it means to know something. Now, I feel like once you, that's for me, that's enough. Like if I go in a room and close the door, like I have enough energy for six months, but it's not enough to pitch this play to somebody. You know, I feel like I need a sort of like anxious expression on people's faces when I'm like it's about birds and epistemology or like, you know, that's not the play. There's like, but it's enough there. There's just enough like Tinder and there for me. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I feel similarly to what you're saying. I feel like there have been times where I've created a structure for myself, like a box to write inside of, but very rarely. I guess it is more for me that emotional. Like I'll have a question or like you're saying birds and there's like one character, you know, I'll have something that I'm exploring, but I have no idea what it's gonna be. I mean, I feel like if you're using playwriting to do any kind of emotional or ethical or spiritual work in your life, then that's about as much as you want to start. Right. Trying to get to the other side of something. Right. You want to be different when your play is done, right? Right. You don't know something else about yourself. And if you know everything at the top, then you're- Yeah, there's nothing to write either. But there's not, but that's one way to be a playwright. Like there's no reason why that's not gonna be what you use playwriting for. Like you can also just like crack out, bang in mysteries or whatever else you want to do on stage. When I think about the outline situation, I think why would I then write the play? If I made the outline, I don't need to write the play. Yeah, a teacher, I forget who it was now because I didn't study playwriting formally either. So that's another thing that I have that might disadvantage or whatever. But I remember somebody once saying that if you talk about the play or if you tell somebody about the play, then you won't write it or you won't want to write it because it's like this. Like if you know exactly the plan, then what's the, you know, why are you gonna do it? Cause part of the fun is discovering it in a way. Maybe you know some of the highlights or something. Does that mean you keep your work secret until it's in draft form? I don't know. I mean, I don't really, well I usually will do one draft though before I start showing it. I mean, I've been in writing groups where I've brought in, you know, pages. So I think I've done it both ways. But I don't know if that's what he meant as much as you don't like actually discuss the play thoroughly with somebody before you actually do that time by yourself with just you and the play. I think that's what he meant more than telling somebody maybe you're having them read it as it's going along. I think that's okay. I don't really know actually. Can you also end up in that situation if you talk about your play before you've done it where you're sort of like too confident about what it's about? Cause you don't know birds. And then you like put in a few months on it and you're like, it's totally about frogs. Right, exactly, exactly. Is it my turn to ask a question? I think so. Cause I've asked like two, I think two or three at this point now. Me it's a real pleasure and a relief to be able to talk a little, just like to go back and forth a little bit. Yeah, I think so. Whatever extent Zoom will allow. Oh, I have, so I can't figure out which ones I should ask first. Okay, well, maybe this one is a little connected to this last one. So when you're writing for the stage for this, like for the physical stage, do you picture, are you living inside the play as an existential event? Like, are you inside the story of the play or are you thinking about the audience not in an abstract way, but in a physical way? Are you picturing like the geometry of blocking and the relationship of audience to stage and stuff like that and physical bodies? Does that make sense? So are you abstract in a way when you're writing for it or are you materially conscious when you're writing a play? I don't know the answer to this in my own head. So I'd like you guys to... I think I'm not either one of those things.  And so I think I don't think I'm in the story ever because I know that I have like sort of stepped out of the play and thought, oh, so this is what this is about. And then it was about something completely different like then they surprised me. So then I'm like, okay, I was wrong. In fact, usually I've been wrong or I've had a good idea like, oh, they should say this because then it'll mean this and then whatever it was that I stepped in to do is always horrible. Like, you know, so it's just... And I'm talking about first draft because I think my first draft experience is so different from rewriting experience altogether. So yeah, I think it's... I mean, I would have to say abstract would be my answer because it's definitely not, you know, but it's not place or story. It's not things or story. It's more of the people, I think. That's cool. I think I am in it inside of it. I'm not thinking about the audience watching or the relations, like literal. I'm not thinking about the literal stage. I think it's a complete world of its own but now that I'm thinking about it, I think it has an artifice. Like it isn't, I'm in the theatrical world if that makes sense. So I'm not really thinking about where everyone is on stage, but the vision is not totally real or filmic. It's a theatrical world I'm inside of or seeing. I wonder if I... I never used to ask this question or think about it, but I started to try to pay attention to the audience as a living, breathing component at a certain point because I was a little ignoring them, you know? And now having done a little bit of work in film and TV, not very much at all, but just a little bit, I see like, oh, this lens, I see that there is a more inside even. So I think that's what you're talking about, Basil, about artifice. Like there's a kind of artifice that I've taken as a given in the world of the story of the writing. And now I see that there's an even more inside of the story, which is like you're writing a screenplay.  Yeah, I would say that about screenplays, definitely that it's a different viewpoint or something that the way you see it or tell the story, that's interesting. I've always found it very interesting when I read a script or when I've taught class and someone will give me a script in there so detailed about things like, you know, to the stage, stage left, there's a pink lamp and whatever. And it's not like things that are actually important to the plot in some way, you know, like the pink lamp doesn't explode or something, you know, it's just that they've described it to such detail and to the stage left and stage right and whatever. And all of these, and I'm like, how do you know, first of all, you're going to have the budget to have these set pieces where I've always, I always find it so interesting when people are so detailed about that.  And I think I'm not mine or not like that at all. You know, I mean, I think place, there is place. And I do sometimes jump around from place to place. But so I've been told sometimes that it's kind of more cinematic because you'll go here and then you're in another place and then you're in a different place. But I'm not usually detailing the place so in such a detailed way. So that's kind of always very interesting to me. Yeah, me too. And I know I've had directors sometimes ask me, how are you envisioning this?  I've really struggled with answering that question sometimes because I, although it was a living breathing thing that I was inside of and thinking about, I didn't have like a stage idea about it. So that's, and sometimes I've been really surprised by, and delighted by design drawings of some, you know, just kind of seeing how someone else saw it. There's something about maybe, I mean, both of the, you're both, a little goes a really long way. It feels like to me in both of your plays in different ways with in terms of like setting and physicality, like there is a lot of nimbleness and a lot of seriality, but certainly based on your, but also in when January feels like summer. Like, you know, these are, and seriality and heightened location in the theater are best with less, you know, in a way, like it's like if you're Shakespeare or Alan Eckborn or something like that, you know, like, so maybe that's one of the things, it's like the more nimble you want to be in your theater world, the sparer your stage directions yet and certainly. That's true, I think, yeah. This question that immediately made me think about my students because like what you were saying, Corey, sometimes they're very just intense about what's the stages. And I teach at SUNY Purchase and I don't know who the other, all the playwriting teachers are, but I get, you know, I have playwriting one, two and three. So then sometimes my playwriting two students have had other playwriting one teachers. So I get like a little bit of insight into some of the others. And I know there's someone who had them, would have them make a stage, like totally create a stage for them to think about when they're writing their play, which always felt so strange to me. I mean, I totally understood the idea that most of them are writing for the screen. So they have a hard time transitioning sometimes. So I understood that, you know, but I also find, I found, I thought that's so like constraining. I would never say that to my students, but it sounded very just sort of, yeah, just very constrained. Even though theater is, you know, that's one of the pleasures of it, but it can be bigger than that model of a stage. I mean, there's the question of the objects in the space. And then there's the question of the audience, like the literal people in the audience. Also like an interesting puzzle to me always, and who's there and how they got there and what theater is or what theater is for. And to me like that, I don't worry that that's like gonna small in or pander in my work or anything like that. I feel like the more I can think a lot about who they really are, anyway, the happier I'll be with my playwriting. When you say thinking about the audience when you're writing their relationship, are you sometimes thinking about how they may respond to something? I guess, especially the more jokes I try to write.  You know what I mean? Like a joke really, multi-visibly touches a group of people and tries to get something out of them going back towards the stage. And so, you know, thinking about them as a, I don't have a performing background, I should say. I think writers who, playwrights who start as actors and some of my favorite playwrights have been actors. You know, they, this comes intuitively to them. Like they know what an audience is. They've been up there like conversations with audiences, but for someone like me who started not just at the back of the house, but literally like under the bleachers to a terrified, you know, of how my plays would be received to even sit in the audience, like coming to understand who they are, like what they are, who they are as individuals and what they can do as an organism, like is a real part of my self-education as a playwright. It's not a question, I'm sorry, but it's just a... I mean, I started out as an actor. So I'm coming from that. And I mean, that's my training and that's where I got my degree and is acting. So I think that that training does go into my writing. I mean, I think I do write roles that people wanna play or can play. You know, I think that's kind of something that's just in, and so maybe the audience part is just part of it. You know, I guess, yeah, I never thought about it, but I think now that you're mentioning it, I think you do automatically realize that there's whatever. And I remember once, I mean, Danielle is here, but anyway, there was once when we were in rehearsal with When January Feels Like Summer and there was a scene that's supposed to be funny and it wasn't funny and it just wasn't funny and it just wasn't funny. And I was sitting there trying to say, why is this not funny? Cause it's been funny before. And I suddenly realized that the two actors were playing it for laughs. They were trying to be funny. And I said, they're trying to be funny. Tell them to stop trying to be funny and it immediately became funny. And but I think I realized that as in, like it was more the acting part of what I knew that told me that actually, that made me understand that in a way. And we did it and it was like, oh my God, it was like night and day. Cause it was just like a focus thing actually. It was so weird. It was like they were playing to the audience and it was like played just to each other. And don't think about being funny. The play is so funny. Yeah, that's the one that made me laugh and I was going to throw it away literally. I that play almost ended up in the garbage cause I thought this is the worst play ever written in life and I was going to throw it away. And I only didn't because my agent said, have you written anything new? And I felt so embarrassed that I had nothing to hand that I just gave it to them thinking like they were going to probably then fire me for it. And they said, oh, we sent it everywhere. And I was like, what? Oh my God. You know, I was so, so embarrassed, but anyway. Thank God. That's a story about how, how the curve of the world is spared a great injury. This is, this audience thing is a big, is a big deal for, for a lot of playwrights cause most playwrights don't get produced. You know, like- Right, right. Big deal for, for student playwrights because now we don't, we don't train our playwrights through apprenticeship or through being on stage or whatever, we train them in school. And, you know, for me it was a really tough look, like never having a chance to have plays produced for decades, you know, because I just didn't, I just didn't know what the, what the game was, you know, like really about. So that's why- I know that there's very, there are few things I enjoy more than sitting in an audience watching a play of mine and they have no idea who I am and I'm just sitting next to random people and just seeing them like experience it and learning from that whole experience, that is something I just love to do. So I'll usually sit, yeah, oh, I love that.  I mean, I do that in previews. I'll usually do it in previews a lot. I find it really, really interesting. I like- Oh, sorry. Basil, what did you say?   I literally, I sat in the house for the first time in my entire life in my last show and that was February, 2019. And I sat in the very back row on the last night of the run. Before that, I was plastered to the back wall of the house, listening. I was there, but I couldn't sit in a month. I'm so, it's harrowing to me beyond description. Basil, do you sit in the house of your place? I do, I sit in the back, the back row. Yeah, it's kind of an excruciating experience. There's moments of joy, you know, when it feels like everything's working really well. And it's, you know, what happens for me is I'm, I always feel terrified that no one is gonna understand. And so I feel like I'm holding everybody in that audience and I'm like, I'm trying to take you with me. And I feel that the strain of holding them and bringing them, which I, so when there's moments where it's like, okay, they got it. Like there's like a relief about it. But most, like I, you know, people will be like, ah, people laugh so much. I didn't hear like a single laugh. You know, I'm still busy holding everybody. I mean, there's definitely, I like the learning about the play. Like I feel like the previews helped me learn about it. But I'm learning about it so I can better hold it. I have like eight million more questions. I'm, you guys have at least two more each, right? But now it's 546. I just want to say like, I don't know what our, Oh, yes. Oh gosh, time has flown. Do we, do we need to move along so other people can ask questions or should we do one more? Maybe one more. Can invite folks to chat in questions if they have it, but also what you all are talking about is so rich and so full. So I, we can just forward question. People can just chat in their questions. And if you all can keep an eye on it and integrate that. But what's happening here, I just feel like we're voyeuristically having this amazing opportunity to hear you talk so honestly. That is so special. So we certainly want to include other voices and questions. Go ahead and chat them in, but you all should keep on going as well. Okay, great. Thank you. Okay, I think it's my turn again. Okay, let me see. Well, one thing I'm, now I'm veering off where we were, but I guess I'm, the space I'm writing in feels really important to me. And I was kind of curious, this may be like a double question, but for me, it's sort of, I realized I have three go-tos. And maybe it depends on my mood or where I am in the process, but I often feel like I need a space that no one else is in. Like if it's an apartment, no one else is in that apartment, a house, whatever. Sometimes it can just be a room, but life can be happening outside my room, like the family's home, but I'm like in a deadline, so I can go in a room and write. And then my other place is a diner, alone in a diner, which I love because I'm alone, life is happening, but I'm not a part of it. I'm not gonna get sucked into it. It's like, it's not my life happening around. And the other part of that is sort of aesthetics or preparing space. So I guess I'm curious about that for you too. If you have needs about aloneness or how your space is.  I've been known to like get, because I think I get very involved with whatever it is. So I think I do like to be alone. But I mean, I've written in rooms with other people there too. So that works fine. I don't think, yeah, I don't, I mean, I know that when I first started, I was more particular about stuff. I used to like have hand sanitizer. I always use hand sanitizer.  And then I read somewhere that August Wilson always washed his hands before he wrote. So I was like, okay, I'm not that weird. So I mean, there's just something I think about wanting to remove the world from the, let the play come through you without some sort of, even though you do use your life and whatever's around you in it, but I think it's just wanting it to be its own thing in a weird, weird, weird way. But I can write almost anywhere at this point. I think I used to, I mean, one thing I will say this is making me think of is that I used to feel like I wrote easier. It was easier to write when I had jobs that I hated that I was like trying to steal time to write. Like, you know, like you had a full-time job and the only time you could write was like at midnight or you could write like on a weekend or that kind of thing. I think I enjoyed writing more because it was like I couldn't wait for those moments that I could focus on writing. And so when you have like this time to write all day, all the time, there's something very difficult and hard about writing, it's less pleasurable or something, it's less of an escape or I don't know what it is. So that's making me think about that, actually. Are you writing all the time now or are you stealing time? No, I mean, no, I think it's like procrastinate all the time now. I think I was more like focused on the writing like as I think it was the escape so I like couldn't wait to do it. And now it's more like I shouldn't be writing but I'm not, you know, kind of it's weird. Yeah, it feels like the job now. I mean, it is, right? And it is, yeah, it is less, there's something different about it. Yeah, yeah, when you were not getting paid and you didn't think anyone was ever gonna do it, that's when it was like fun to do it. Yeah. I really, I've written a lot on the subway. I really love to write on the subway. I really love the A especially, like it's a long, fast trip through a lot of different landscapes and it has those seats that face forward. I haven't written on this subway since March because I just feel like I really think the subway, I cherish the subway but I feel like people shouldn't be writing it what amounts to recreationally, you know what I mean? So I haven't been on it in a long time which is very painful to me but in general, because I just love the subway. But the subway is like a diner, I think, you know what I mean? It is, but do you physically write on the train or are you just like right there? No, I write, because I write in a notebook first so I can go with me there. Yeah. Yeah, I don't think I would crack open the laptop on the A. I know, I was like, do you sit there with that? I mean, I do notebook stuff too on the train. I like that. I love to like copy little conversations I'm hearing and all kinds of things happening. I'm very susceptible to people's voices around me and but somehow on the train, especially at like, you know, in the daytime, like there's not a lot of chit chat really, like people are going about their business but they are themselves and they're with you but they're not with you and it's a perfect amount of companionship I think for writing. Yeah, that's, yeah, go ahead. That's what I love about the diner, Daniela. I was just gonna say we have a question from Sarah. So I just wanna float that in your conversation. Oh yeah, cause I'm not seeing the chat. I don't see the chat either. Do you ever show a very first draft, a pre-first draft to others or is the pre-first draft always just for you? I have people that see pre-first drafts as that's their charge. Like there's a writing group that I'm in and that's what we do there is that we bring in stuff that's early enough and that feels okay cause everybody's on the same page about where we're at. I don't think, you know, I would be very, I wouldn't show it early un-punished stuff to theaters and I would only throw it to the most select collaborators because I, I don't know, I'm very, I would be very vulnerable to being kind of influenced or having my tender little dreams crushed. Yeah. Yeah, say it. I would agree. I would agree. I wish I had a group like that but I don't but I have a couple of friends that I trust, you know, and who can read a really early draft and are able to excitedly talk with me about the things that are exciting about it. And in no way is it a conversation about where it's going unless I wanna have that conversation that I'm meeting but any kind of, like you said, Madeline, I feel very susceptible at that point and I may abandon the project if that goes wrong. But at the same time, I want to talk about it. I sometimes need to verbally process with another person. So at some point I need that to continue on but it needs to be the right kind of conversation. I think there's some people that, you know, they're demanding and structure oriented wishes for a play are the perfect thing but they're only the perfect thing when you're like nine, 10ths of the way done or seven, 10ths of the way done. And if you try to bring that person into conversation with you when you are working in miasma and you're doing the, is it birds or is it frogs? You know what I mean? Like that person can really hurt your play even though they're doing something awesome that you desperately need eight months later. Right. I'm looking at you for it. You can't tell if this is Zoom. So even though I'm staring directly at you. Oh, at me? Yeah, you don't feel, you don't feel that. I was wondering if you were gonna say other things about that. Yeah, no, I agree completely. I just, I think I completely concur. That's exactly the way I feel too. I wouldn't, I mean, and I think there are different people for different stages that you can bring in and that are gonna be useful. I think I've usually only showed very early things to either very trusted people, one or two, usually maybe one even. And then otherwise it's like writing group things. Those, in those environments, I have been known to bring plays in and increments, you know, in early, at very early stages. But otherwise, yeah. No. I'm married to another writer and I, whose work I love so much and whose person I love so much, she's like the greatest in the whole outer world. But I never show her anything until quite late because her natural criticality is so cute. It's one of the main things I love about her, but it's like, it's totally scalding to me when I'm like 15 pages in and she's like, why isn't it this? And I'm just like, no, look, I can't. And this thing, yeah, that's not what I want. I just want someone to wrap it in like, you know, lavender scented blankets and love it. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, that's a great question. Something, oh, Corey, isn't it your turn for a question? Oh, is it? I think I asked so many questions, but anyway, let me think, well, I feel like I asked the three, are we at time? I think we're close, but I think you should go ahead. Let me think. Well, if anyone else has any burning questions, please feel free to jump in. I'm trying to remember what the three questions were now. And if I didn't, I feel like I touched on all three at some point. So that's why I'm like trying to think of something now. Can I ask, I can ask my last one, because I feel like I've asked one and a half. And it sort of connects to this in a different way. I was gonna ask, and I know part of the answer for both of you, where and how do your plays live in your political life? And maybe that's an early, maybe some plays that's very alive early on, maybe some later, maybe it's all the way through for all of them, like how do they live in your life politically?  But I mean, I don't think I'm deliberately political. Let me put it that way. I don't write within agenda usually. So, and that doesn't mean right or wrong or good or bad or anything, but I'm just saying, I think I thought, all right, in my head, political, I think writing is political anyway when you're putting something down, it automatically is a political act in a way. So therefore it's important, I guess, that you're clear about what it is you're saying about whatever it is you're saying. And I do usually try very hard if there is a subject, I try to make sure that all the different angles to something are expressed as best possible. I try very hard to have a well-rounded discussion about something if I'm gonna have some subject there, it's not gonna be just one-sided to like, try to make you see this, I'll try to make you see all the different angles. So, I guess that's the closest I can get, that I think it's like, I think I write about things that I'm interested in and that touch me or move me and that I'm excited about or that means something to me. And so some of those things are sort of political type things. So then therefore that's what's gonna come through in the work, but I'm gonna try to be very careful about how I present it because I understand that it's important to be clear. I think, you know, when Corey said the act of writing is political, it sort of touched on where my head was when you asked that question, just that because everything feels political, I'm not thinking about something, I'm not thinking like this is a political thing I wanna write about it, no matter what I wrote about would be political. So I'm thinking of it in that way. So maybe then that tends to feel like the work can be political because it is no matter what you're doing in my mind. And I am thinking of it that way through the same lens that you're saying, Corey, and just that I know people are watching this and people are gonna think about this and I want to make sure I'm considering that, and that it has meaning. Before we wrap up Madeline, do you wanna answer your own question? Yes. Oh, I mean, I have a very sort of, I often feel vexed about it because I'm drawn to political questions and ethical questions, but then in the play I'm always feeling like, like I wrote a play that has to do with climate change, but the thing I want the Green New Deal and for the grid to be nationalized, but the play is about what is it in us that makes it so difficult for us to assent to things that would also save us? You know what I mean? So it ends up being, the thing I'm trying to write about is the backside of the thing I care about. And so I feel like I don't wanna look like I'm an apologist for bad choices or bad politics, but so for me it's a lot of live tension and I never really know what to do about that, but except just like March on my off days, you know. That's what we have to do, yeah. Yeah, and that seems to be like, that's sort of how to get at the heart of something really though is, you know, like what you're saying is sort of almost the bigger question of your desire. You know, how do we, what keeps us from being able to have that and then exploring that, having an understanding and empathy and true understanding? Well, I'm gonna say on that note of empathy and understanding. This is an incredible moment to have empathy and understanding for the three of you and also just for all playwrights and the complexity of the playwriting process. And I feel like all playwrights should be listening to this, other theater artists, audience members to just have a deeper understanding and appreciation of all that you go through to create, to sit in the theater and watch your work.  For those of you who don't know these three wonderful writers work, you must find them and read their work and it's incredible. And this has been a really moving conversation and could just go on and on because there's so much to say. So I just wish that we could wrap you in your lavender-scented blankets as you deserve. And if we do it again, we must have lavender blankets or bathrobes or something. We have to do it live at 224 Waverly. So thank you to the three of you. Thank you for everyone listening. Thank you to the Mellon Foundation. Thank you to HowlRound. It is really powerful to be in conversation with all of you and we cannot wait to share more of your work with you in the future. So we're gonna close out now but thank you so very much and to be continued. Thank you. Thank you everyone. Bye.


This is the final day of excellent week of programming around non-personal data that has geek has been convening. And I'm just here very quickly to introduce the first speaker this evening for the next sort of hour and 20 minutes. We have first Srikanth talking to us about this particular concept around a debt and NPD that he's going to be talking more about. And then for about 15, 20 minutes following which within the 20 minutes slot by 6.20 I'm going to provide some reactions to his presentation and invite comments. We'll have a short break and at 6.30 then we'll begin a moderated discussion around privacy concerns in non-personal data, the V2 of the report with an excellent lineup of panelists who will introduce themselves. So given we're quite short and snappy with time, I'm going to go off video and hand over to Srikanth to take us through his presentation. Thanks Srikanth. Yeah, thanks Malamika. Hello everyone. I'm Srikanth, part of Cashless Consumer and Consumer Collective on Digital Payments. What we'll be looking today is around the topic of debt, NPD and ownership to play infrastructure. Now I'll unbundle each of these as we go through the presentation. A quick overview of what we're applying to cover it for the next 20 minutes. These are essentially political economy observations looking at payment systems and other data flows in them. Specifically, we'll be looking at three payment systems, Bharat Bill Payment System, Fastag and National Common Mobility Card. We see what the non-personal data aspects of these payment systems. And the emphasis here is not on privacy. So that's a separate debate. We've kind of had through all the privacy conversations and there are probably enough literature by now on privacy issues around each of these. So I'll not touch much upon the privacy aspects of these, but we'll focus on the NPD aspects, so which is the non-personal data. So on that, much is started on the economic value of non-personal data. And even if you've seen the reports, there is an economic growth aspect of non-personal data that keeps coming around. We'll kind of see that slightly closer with these real-world examples. So for that, what we try to do is we'll see, this whole notion of NPD has come around in, say, 2020 when this committee was formed and it produced two versions of the report which we are discussing through the week. But we'll kind of see how this essentially non-personal data was still kind of managed on these three payment systems. And for which we kind of see what's also common is all these three payment systems are essentially part of the indicted infrastructure sector. So you might have heard in the news about the non-performing assets of banks and so on, which basically the loans that are not coming up. And these are primarily on the infrastructure sector. And when we say infrastructure sector, one is electricity. That's where PVPS will come in and we'll go through what it is. Next is FASTAC, which is where all your highways and tollways come in. And then the third is National Common Mobility Card, which is where all the infrastructure around your metros, metro rails in urban context comes in. And we see how all these three have been having huge debt issues or their financing of infrastructure and what these systems and the NPD around them try to achieve and what where we are today, we kind of see a brief overview. And then we'll kind of use this knowledge as a background and see what NPD is. Because mostly you've kind of seen NPD from the prism of let's say startups or as a community is generating data, wanting access to data. But we'll kind of see what NPD is through the lens of the state or what NPD entails to the state and what we should be worrying about. And as always, standard disclaimer, views are personal and of course, political as well. You may agree or disagree with me. So we'll get started. So first is power sector. What is the role of BVPS and NPD? So a brief history of power sector reforms in India, I think ever since we've kind of opened up our economy, there is a significant push in privatizing the power sector which is traditionally held by the state, both when all across the various forms of it, so be it generation, transmission or distribution. And there were initial set of reforms which kind of uncoupled each of these functions and said we've kind of largely allowed range of private sector players in the generation aspect. And in some cases, transmission and distribution as well. Although distribution is still held largely by the state, the individual state governments own electricity company and that has also led to some kind of a financial crisis in them, which is why you may have heard these names, Uday scheme that was kind of put in place somewhere in the NDA one, which is to kind of bring these distribution companies to a better financial health, relieving them of their excessive debt burden. And one aspect of it is, and which we are now seeing as part of the Atman-Balbarath is the Discount Privatization. And we'll kind of closely see what's the role of MPD in all these. And so one problem is essentially, so we've kind of seen one part of this puzzle is that Discounts are unable to collect electricity bills. And so collections have been a problem which is kind of leading them to a place where they are financially unhealthy. So one, there has been multiple committees and task forces between thinking around solving these problems. So the initial, the early reference to that is the 2002 power sector IT task force, which kind of suggested some, it's a computerization of the consumer information system as well as bill collection system. So let's say the earlier versions of digitization of these to bring in efficiencies and see improve them. And then slightly later in the day, RBI came up with this concept of a bill payment system. And in 2013, it kind of floated this idea again. And what it essentially meant through that regulation was to create an infrastructure where RBI mandated all utility bill payments to be centrally routed through this system called Bharat Bill Payment System. So this is basically, so if you have kind of a brief history on payment systems on utilities is essentially you would kind of be going to the counter and paying up in cash or probably website of this utility company. That kind of changed over last three, four years when since Bharat Bill Payment System was gone live, you might have seen your Discom getting listed in your favorite app, payment app, and then you could just pay or get the staples. That's possible because of BVPS and BVPS is mandated regularly by RBI. What BVPS also does is basically creates a centralized data source of all the receivable data of all the discounts. So essentially, we can practically say that every electricity bill in India is being centralized in this BVPS data store. And this, of course, does have its own personal data implications. I'm not gonna go into that. We're only gonna see the non-personal data implications of that. So on the non-personal data front, how can this data be leveraged? So one is as part of this privatization they are planning to kind of boost this data and run some data analytics and then see how we can kind of segregate these companies into more efficient units and then privatize them. So let's say today your one big state has one single distribution company. Now how can each city have its own distribution companies and how can they be privatized individually so that their value can be maximized and so on? So this is one place where this data, the receivables data of discounts is being used. So this will probably go into valuation of these, fitting of these discounts and so on. Let's say when the other, why this focus on, say, sizing discount data. The other reasoning is also that there's a huge transmission distribution cost in kind of distributing power. So if we have better knowledge as to what the consumption patterns are down to the, let's say street transformer, then they can optimize, the distribution companies can optimize their networks and then use and deploy their infrastructure effectively to kind of save load and they can analyze consumption patterns across various regions or areas in the city and then they can kind of manage their network efficiently. So that's the other role of non-personal data in say power. And what we've done through VVPS is essentially, we've kind of centralized this data infrastructure at a national scale. So VVPS as with any other payment system is being run by the National Payments Corporation of India, which you might have known that it's a bank owned segment infrastructure company that's collectively owned by a set of banks. There's also been some recent discussions around forking off a subsidiary for VVPS. Now, this all discussion is of importance because if you see the value that MPCI, which itself is a nonprofit has and is only data and this data is not just the personal data of, say you and me using UPI or the other payment system, but it is also this non-personal data forms a crucial role. And that is forking that off to a different entity. One kind of needs to see who benefits out of it. We leave the who benefits out of this just for your thinking. And I want to kind of bring in the NPD paper context here. So the NPD paper context here is essentially a data trustee. So I mean, if you read through the NPD report, you notice the data trustee being referred and here data trustee kind of aggregates the NPD of the entire sector. So this subsidiary for the VVPS will kind of own this NPD of all the power distribution companies. Now, we'll see what's the issue with that towards the end. Now, this is power sector. And then we have a similar set of issues on road infrastructure and FASTAG, why we are having FASTAG. So again, brief history of highway development in India that being like multiple PPP modes of building highways ever since say the Golden Quarter lateral days and so on. But even that sector again, faced significant financial health issues, which means that say the contractors who are putting the highways were not getting compensated or the state was losing out a lot more money, tools were not collected properly. So FASTAG was kind of again conceptualized as an electronic tolling system, which will kind of maximize the revenues of. So just like how in the power sector, we had a collection problem. So even in the highway sector, the tolling was again a problem. And FASTAG was kind of pushed as a technological solution. It was conceptualized in 2010, there was a committee report and it went through multiple iterations and kind of fully went live in 2020 and it's now managed in 2021. Again, FASTAG has its own say the privacy issues, we're not gonna go into that, but let's quickly see how the NPD role of FASTAG data is. Now FASTAG kind of collects, let's say the traffic volume of each highway systemically and with which, let's say the traffic volumes across individual highway segments can be measured in very absolute terms because especially if you make FASTAG as a mandatory mode of payment for tolling, you're basically having the entire tolling infrastructure data in a single place. And if you strip off the personal data part, you'll be having a rich NPD data set, which is then further used to decide policy and the policy here in the road infrastructure has been like two financing options. So one is called a model called toll operate transfer where publicly funded highways, which is basically highways built with the government money or in some cases, if let's say a highway was built by a private player, but the concessionary agreement had completed over 20 years. Now that kind of, that highway comes in with the hands of state and then state decides to monetize that asset, the highway as an asset. And while monetizing that asset, the state is using these FASTAG data to kind of value what the highway is and what its potential is. And then it puts a base price upon which multiple people bid over that highways for tolling rights. And use that and then they participate in an auction and they get the tolling rights and then they continue to toll and state gets a one-time monetized value of that asset. So state no longer owns that highway, now the highway is kind of sold off. So that's where an NPD is crucial there in the context of pricing the bid. So how do you value a highway for a 20 year period? So the answer to that is state, I mean, one way is to use the FASTAG data and then do some projections. The other is, again, invits, which is slightly a different variant of this wherein an individual kind of issue like a mutual fund and people can buy invits of the market and the entire highways will be owned by invits. Again, a set of highways will be transitioned into this trust, which will issue invits. So again, the role of NPD here is largely around pricing of these taught and invit bids. And again, housing this data, currently it's housed with NPCI, which is implementing the FASTAG ATC project along with an infrastructure consortium, IHMCL. This again, bringing back to the NPD debate, these are the data trustees of this data set. Again, I leave the crew benefits to you and then come to urban mobility. So urban mobility, again, we have a similar set of financing issues over funding metros for each of these cities. And metros typically take a very long time period to kind of build the entire infrastructure and then ticketing forms will be a very low part of repayment to that kind of debt. So NCMC has been like ideated multiple times, started in 2010, concept slice in 2012, launched multiple times in very different names. Previously there was an entity called UTIITSL, which was owned by Ministry of Finance, which ran some common mobility cards. Currently there is again another pilot by NPCI to do a common mobility card. So every now and then you will see a common mobility card. So the role of NPD here is involved on two fronts. So one is the standard things that we've seen on valuing what the economic value of it in terms of transactions.  Like how much are people using the transit infrastructure is one part, but this transit infrastructure data can also lead to, let's say, planning input into urban development and planning transit networks themselves. So where do you build the next metro line and so on and so forth? So this again, there was a huge value on this non-personal data and then this NCMC kind of tries to centralize this data into again with NPCI and I would say taking away the autonomy from the cities. I'll again leave the who benefits to you. But so this has been the case with India and how India has kind of navigated through this for the last decade, but we'll kind of see some examples globally. So there is Saudi Arabian bill payment system which is called SADAD is being run by the Saudi Arabian banking regulator themselves and it's a fully centralized data store, an NPD, much like the database itself is with the regulator of the state. And I can loosely call it to, let's say, a Marxian model where the state owns all this data. And then there is oyster cards in London. So they have a transport for London authority, this corporatized entity looking at all aspects of transportation in London. They again issue oyster cards which is for the transit payments in London, which again creates a centralized data store which also generates NPD around transit patterns in London and so on. It's with this entity, TFL, but it's also TFL again rolls up to the London city council and so on. And it's sort of, let's say NPD is accessible not just to the state, but lastly to the community and the market as well. And I would say broadly this I'm equated with the Keynesian model. And then we'll take an example of tolling and toll interoperability in the US. So US also has a freeway system and multiple tolling, electronic tolling projects much before we've had. And there again, there was a concept conversation recently a few years back around why do we need to have a tolling, e-tolling infrastructure uniquely separately for each state? Why can't we have an interoperable tolling system? And there, the way they've solved it is not by having a single entity, but then used a federated interoperability standard with which you can still move across multiple toll providers and still have different set of, I mean, you don't need to actually have multiple tags or transponders and can still transact in an interoperable way. And here the NPD is kind of collected in a federated manner as in whichever tolling company owns that particular highway kind of has its toll data. It's not shared with the state. So it's kind of NPD is with the market. And I kind of say loosely say this is an Adam Smith model of housing this NPD data. And India we've just seen through PVPS, NCMC and NETC which is fast type. We've kind of have a slightly mixture of all these put together in one form or the other. Now, we'll kind of broadly see which are like the NPD generator systems or high value data sets systems currently available to kind of before we see what NPD, what role NPD plays and I've kind of split this by ownership. So let's say the first generation systems or the legacy systems, we've had say Waffen, which is the vehicle data. You might have heard this in the context of privacy leaks or a Waffen data sharing framework and so on. And then we have GSTN, which houses taxation data, PFMS has public class data. ENAM is an agricultural market, but it's basically run by the state. And then IMPDS is basically the ration shop network. So you, which gain houses, both food consumption data as well as potentially migratory data as well. And then say we have e-courts, which houses all the litigation data, NCRD houses crime data. So this is all basically state owned or state built data infrastructures, which have a very high value data sets on NPD. Now there is again, moving on like there's a second category, which is regulator owned or built data sets. Examples here would be like the insolvency information utility built by the IBBI or approved by the IBBI. Rohini is a database of all hospitals in the country run by the insurance information bureau, which is again under the IRDAI. FOSCOS is basically all the, it's a system basically that has a database of all the food licensing related data. So all the FSSAI, which is the Food Safety and Standards Regulator in India has a system called FOSCOS, which licenses all the packed foods and so on. And then let's say the trial, which monitors the internet and telecom infrastructure has an app called MySpeed, which is to monitor all the internet speeds and then it kind of houses that infrastructure in itself. So these are some of the HVD infrastructures built and owned. I'm there for you Shrikant. We are coming up to time. So you have a couple of moments. And then we have like the privately owned built infrastructure where we saw these three, but there are some more as well. What do I mean by asset light sector control infrastructure? So we've kind of seen through 2010 through 2020 state built several data platforms, as we've seen in the examples, through a private entity to centralize sectoral data. And this centralization of sectoral data was used with the strategic intent in raising capital to offset debt. And why do I call NPD as an asset light? Because here the government which is not, will not even be building that kind of a data infrastructure to generate that data. And it's also partially because government wants, doesn't want to kind of regulate the digital economy same way, but still want to have some amount of power or control of the economy. So what it means is basically anybody, what it brings through this employee framework is a data trustee which will kind of operate the data infrastructure to collect managed data. And then that is the exit of the government for whatever reasons it wants. Now, what does NPD mean in this context? So NPD will also be an infrastructure insolvency resolution tool. So as you've seen that these sectors were kind of indebted by a huge margin. So the state kind of decided to intervene, put in these data platforms, extract data, generate NPD out of through systems. And then the state is currently using that to kind of get out of the debt mess that it has created. Now, what did to potentially mean this with NPD is state will not even be building those systems, but state still has access to such kind of granular data, which can then be used to kind of decide policy for each of these sectors. And this has significant impact for the existing and new investments across sectors. So we've kind of seen only the infrastructure sector and how payment systems were kind of used to generate NPD for the infrastructure sector. What this also means is approaches to data minimization will be structurally discouraged. So the state says that you've got to generate data. And if you're operating in a sector and the state comes and says, this is the data system and you have to share your data, you might even as an industry, you might not want to actually even collect some data, but you would be forced to kind of collect that data and then give that NPD to the data trustee because now the NPD framework demands such kind of data to be shared to the data trustee. So data minimization options will be kind of structurally discouraged. And then the other issue is around governance of data trustee, some of the framework mentions of data trustees, now what is the governance norms of these data trustees, transparency, accountability, provisions of these and how it impacts individuals, businesses is something to worry about. And that is all I have. Thank you. Great, thanks a lot for that. Actually there was a very, very quick and a nice overview of all the thoughts that you had. What I'm gonna do very quickly is just a way to check if we have any questions. I don't think we do, which is great. We are right on time. I'll just share a couple of observations maybe and then we can go straight into the next panel if that's fine for everyone in order to stay on time. So I mean, just in terms of responding to the presentation Shikant, I thought it was very interesting. Some interesting dots connected for me that I hadn't previously thought about in that light. I think everybody's talking about this foundational question of whether at all the state can do this and monetize data in this way or set up a regulatory framework. But I think two or three specific things I want to call out is one is this presentation. It started doing this. And I think if you're planning to write it up as a paper, it might be really helpful to just call out the fact that you're thinking about NPD in the context of asset monetization. So obviously with Deepum and all of that, there's this huge conversation or an asset monetization that's happening. And I don't think they really thought about it seriously in terms of how do you unlock intangible asset value from data, whether it's the NPD itself or how do you use NPD for business intelligence or when the government is figuring out how to auction off his assets or whatever Deepum does. So I think that's something that it's in there and I would love to see more about that maybe in a future presentation. I think the other question that it raised for me is I would like to understand whether you're thinking about NPD in itself being valued and in some sense that itself is the public asset or are you just thinking of NPD being used in these kinds of valuation exercises? And I think why that distinction is different is important is because in the first where NPD itself becomes valuable, then are we starting to think about it as public infrastructure of some sort that everybody is getting open access to and then a whole new range of regulatory and other issues come up. But if we're only thinking of it as business intelligence, then of course you're essentially thinking how can the government use this better or how can private players like you had in your table use it better. And quickly, I guess the last thing I will say is just I think there was a little bit around financing in there and a little bit around the regulatory, what's the intended impact of this framework? Again, I would love to have that kind of drawn out. I think you wanted to say something and then we can go straight into the panel discussion. So I don't consider the NPD as an asset in itself. What I meant as an asset-like infrastructure is basically for doing this, the state had to invest significant capital, political and economic capital to build out these data infrastructures. So we've talked to these three and it has taken a decade long. With NPD framework, this thing is kind of going is it's lashing on to the industry and saying that we are not going to even build this out. We want you to give us data that we want and then we will use that in policy making. So this is like going, if the asset-like framework is basically, you don't even have any asset or data infrastructure and the only thing that you're putting in place is a NPD framework, which will kind of latch on to the existing data sets by various industry, community, whatever, by mandating this community data sharing. And this is just one view as to how the state could potentially view. I'm not saying this is how the state intends to, this is what the policy intends to, but this is possibly one consequence of the NPD framework.


Hello, my name is Chris Dancy. Some of you may know me from the Airtable community. Some of you may know me as the world's most connected person. Seriously, Google Most Connected. In 2020, I had a vision for a conference. Not one that I can't know to that, but one that was open to everybody that would focus the power and unique abilities of the no-code tool Airtable. As many people know, I've run my life and my entire business and family on Airtable for close to four years. More importantly, I've used Airtable to extend my own business as a public personality and help communities, whether it be with COVID or empowering Black speakers. After the 2020 Airtable conference that I've built, we had over 1,000 people sign up and 400 people come to that event on the day of the stream. It was so magical and I was so proud of the event. Most proud that 50% of our speakers were women, people of color, and LGBT folks. It was phenomenal. Well, I'm here to tell you we have something even more special. On the heels of the biggest Airtable user community on Facebook with over 6,000 people, on the heels of the world's first and only Airtable user conference in 2020, we are launching Airtable 2022. What is Airtable 2022? Airtable 2022 is the user conference expo and awards for Airtable's customer base.  This event will be in person. Yes, we are meeting in person in Austin, Texas, best barbecue ever, a block from Airtable's office in the world famous Capital Factory. What's Capital Factory, you ask? Capital Factory's a multi-floor enterprise incubator that has hosted some of the biggest breakouts in tech the world has yet to see and has ever known. I encourage you to look them up. Our event will be from April 8th to 9th, two days and will feature keynotes for myself and other amazing people. We are opening up our call for speakers today and announcing our event. If you're looking to speak, you wanna share what you've done with Airtable or just educate people on the power of the unique solutions that Airtable can bring, this event's for you.  We're paying everything single speaker and we're looking for vendors to help get this event going. The event will be on two floors at the Capital Factory on Friday and Saturday, April 8th and 9th. We'll have an unconference section on the second day for anyone who wants to get up and share the amazing things they've been working on and one and a half hour sessions on a beginner's intermediate and advanced track every hour on the hour during the conference. These sessions will blow your mind. If you've never built something to actually building something and leaving the conference with something you can put in production in your enterprise or in your community that weekend. I am so confident you're gonna love this event. Check out the link at our event notification here in this post and I hope to see you there. I can't tell you how much I'm excited to bring their table 2022 to the air table user community, the larger no-code community and to businesses and people alike. Air table can truly change your world because I know it sure changed mine. Thank you so much and I'll see you in Austin in April.


The megalithic marvels of lore, very rarely studied, academically explored or publicized, yet regardless of this, remains one of the most curious and intriguing ruins of the Neolithic Menhir Age.  A collection of curious, kooky, and oftentimes mischievously graffitied, prehistoric Menhirs. The Menhirs were often elaborately carved, and due to the unexplainable scale of some of the stones, cut, quarried, and eventually raised along the valley, it is clearly an example of an inexplicable ruin an ancient relic left to us, once created using unknown technologies at an unknown time within history. A now lost, yet once highly advanced ancestor, impossible for the current academically claimed culture which is clearly a fallacy within modern paradigm. Some of the inexplicably huge stones incorporated into these sites are now being found scattering our planet. Like that of the plane of jars located in Laos, an unusual enigmatic site we have also covered in the past possesses stonework from megalithic blocks of inexplicable sizes. These gigantic stone carvings, Menhirs and jars, some still in astonishing conditions, are a testament to what our lost ancestors were once capable of, and due to the immense size of the stones they could control, have successfully left their mark far into an unknown future, our present. The channel feels a duty, clearly as a far less capable civilization, that we do not withhold the evidence for their existence which has been a great disservice to those who deserve the truth. Multiton Menhirs are located all across the Bada Valley, but not just the Bada Valley. Menhirs can be found across the globe, located in many countries, even in New Zealand and Rodney County. The erosion of many of the world's Menhirs stonework, we feel, is indicative of incredible aging, and as such, possibly from the same era as the Bada Valley's mysterious Menhirs. Yet regardless of whoever made these sculptures, there will never be any academically admittance to the evidence that these particular stoneworkings are found all over the planet. Yet regardless of any one's opinions regarding their past use, a function undertaken at a time so long ago we may never know the true purpose of what our distant ancestors may have been trying to tell us all those millennia ago, only time will tell. The Menhirs and the Henges found worldwide, many now widely known about, have blown a few holes into the hull of the sinking ship that is academic paradigm. The fact that these Menhirs are no less common, and no less scattered across the globe, merely lays another nail in the coffin for the timelines academia put forward for the migrations of man. And even our beginnings, for to have these unusual megaliths everywhere, their builders must have been everywhere too. A highly advanced, highly capable, once world-going ancient civilization, an extremely long time ago. In which we find highly compelling.


zero accounting software 2023 set up bank feed test company file with 30-day free trial get ready to become an accountant hero with zero 2023 here we are at the zero accounting software website the URL being xer.com because I'm in the United States I have a forward slash us if you're located elsewhere then you should be able to follow along just fine with the practice problem because the concept of connecting the financial institutions the banks to the accounting software to zero as well as the double-entry accounting system itself used by the zero accounting software is basically universal the major things that will differ from location to location is number one of course the currency so you'll have to deal with me measuring things in the units of dollars while you might be measuring things in some other currency even though the accounting concepts will be the same and number two taxes so taxes will be specific to a particular location even there you can get the idea of what type of taxes being applied however of course the exact tax that's going to be applied will be dependent upon the laws and regulations of a particular location so what we would like to do now is be practicing with the connection to the bank feeds in order to do that there are two main tools that zero provides us for practice one is the demo file which is great and number two we possibly could get access to the 30-day free trial to be practicing with that's the strategy we want to use here because that way we could possibly get a file that has nothing in it in other words when we're looking at the two methods that we could use possibly to practice with the demo file is a great tool because it already has information in it and we can practice basically manipulating that information that allows us to deconstruct going from the end result back to the source documents but if we want to practice setting something up like setting up the bank feeds from scratch then from the beginning then it would be nice for us to have a blank file that we can connect to the bank or import information into and for that it would be nice if we can get a free 30-day trial to kind of test that process out so the way we could do that if you're logged into zero you can simply log in here if you haven't logged into zero if you don't have an account then you can click on the try the free 30-day trial basically what you're going to do here is enter your information into zero I don't believe you need a credit card at this time in order to log into zero so that you have an account once you have the account then you'll be going into zero's dashboard and the zero dashboard is where you can set up new company files possibly taking advantage of the 30-day trial and be using the demo company so once we're logged in we should have something that looks like this so this is our custom zero dashboard and so now we're gonna have the company files that we have created down below now if you don't have any company files created you're not gonna have anything down here and we can go in and add an organization like a company or business file or we can use the demo company down below now remember the demo company if I if I open the demo company the tool of it is that it already had the great thing about it is it already has information in it so I can I can go into my actual reports accounting drop down I can go into my balance sheet for example and it already is populated and so that now I can make changes to it and then I can go back into the balance sheet and see what happens so that's a great tool but what we would like to do is try to create something from the ground up and so so if you if you don't have access to a 30-day free trial or you'd rather just use the demo company


You are nobody wanting this election in the round to Christmas, but what an incredible thing you have done. You have changed the political landscape, you've changed the conservative body for the better and you've changed the future of our country for the better. Thank all the people, all the people of Sedgefield, of Bishop Auckland, of Stockton South, of Darlington, where my ancestors come from, it turns out, North West Durham, Blythe Valley, I want to thank all the people of those incredible constituencies because I want to thank all of you for the trust that you have placed in us, in the conservative body and in me. That was amazing, Rosamund, you loved your speech, did you? I want the people of the North East to know that we in the conservative body and I will repay your trust. Everything that we do, everything I do as your Prime Minister will be devoted to repaying that trust and first of all what are we going to do to get Brexit done, are we? We're going to get Brexit done and we have a deal ready to go, now can anybody tell me what kind of a deal it is? Can anybody give me? Give me the Coventry characteristics of that deal. It is oven ready, it's ready to go. Every single one of our wonderful MPs are one of our new MPs, they're all, now do you support that deal? They do, they all back it in. We have 100% support, we can get it in before Christmas. We've just been going over the timetable, we can definitely get in before Christmas and then we're out on January the 30th. I know Richard, how are you? Richard, this is it. Who says I'm missing? Well done everybody, what an incredible thing. There is much more that we want to do to repay the trust of the British people and the trust of the people here in the northeast. We want of course to improve our fantastic national health service and that's why we're making the biggest investments for a generation. How many new hospitals? How many new nurses? How many more nurses I can say? Yes man, we will get on and we will get on and deliver on those objectives and we will make the streets safer across the whole of the UK by investing in how many more police initially? Absolutely correct. We will improve our educations and where the money is already going in for every primary school, every secondary school in the country, 4,000 per pupil in the primary, 5,000 per pupil in the secondary schools. There you go. Do you want me to toss to you? There you go. Cheers man. I don't think I'm going to get a job back in the park. Well done everyone. Thank you. Fantastic, well done you guys. I'll see you all on Monday. Thanks for coming up, Richard. What we want to do as Conservatives and we want to take our country forward, we want to do it by uniting and levelling up across the whole of our incredible United Kingdom and we do it with a very simple idea, it's by investing in better infrastructure, better education and fantastic modern technology and give those things to every part of the United Kingdom and we will spread opportunity across the whole of the United Kingdom because that is fundamentally what we in the Conservative Party believe in. We believe in giving opportunity everywhere. We believe that talent is evenly distributed throughout our country but opportunity is unfairly distributed and we are going to rectify that as a one nation Conservative government, as a people's government. That is what we are going to do.  And I want to say in all sincerity to you in the northeast. Thank you very much but thank you colleagues for what you have done in your campaigns. I think they've all been excellent and I congratulate you on your achievement and you're all going to come down now with me on Monday to Westminster or I don't know when you start setting out but you've done it. We're all going to be there on Monday and we're going to do some fantastic things. Our country is now embarked on a wonderful adventure and we're going to recover our national self-confidence, our mojo, our self-belief and we're going to do things differently and better as a country because we can. We'll have some fantastic opportunities. I see Mayor Houchen over there. We're going to look at... Different and better regulation, cutting national insurance contributions, doing all sorts of things differently and better and it's going to be a wonderful, wonderful time for our country, I hope. Our country will stand tall in the world but I want to say to all of my colleagues as MPs, when we get down to Westminster and we begin our work, remember we are not the masters. We are the servants now. We are the servants now and our job is to serve the people of this country and to deliver on our priorities. Our priorities and their priorities are the same and of course they're getting Brexit done but it is also delivering on our national health service, our education, safer streets, better hospitals, a better future for our country. That is what we are going to deliver. That is what we are going to focus on. Thank you all very much for your time. Thank you for coming along this morning. Thank you for your wonderful achievement in transforming our party, transforming the political map of this country and I think putting Britain on a brighter, better path. Thank you all very much.