This is Think Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. Welcome and Aloha. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Most of the earth is covered by the sea. Sometimes we forget this fact. We focus on laws of the land. Our vision of law and legal rights often stops at the shoreline. Today we'll talk about the law that addresses legal issues that involve working on or with the sea and the people who cross the sea as part of their livelihood. My guest is Jay Friedheim. Jay is a lawyer who specializes in admiralty and maritime claims. And I've learned that they're called proctors in admiralty. And I'm interested to know more about that. He helps stevedores, ship repairs, maritime workers who perform their jobs on the waterfront. He is the principal in the law firm of admiralty advocates with offices in Honolulu and Anchorage. I am going to say ahoy Jay because I'm a landlubber, I guess. Welcome. Come on on board. Thank you. Thank you. I want to ask you permission granted. Jay, what is admiralty law and how did you get involved in it? Tell us a little bit about it. Give us an introduction. Okay. Let me start off with your question about proctor in admiralty. It comes from, it's a it's a a moniker that now is administered by the Maritime Law Association. To become a proctor in admiralty you have to submit that you have participated in admiralty trials and that in the idea of other members that you're qualified to do this. But historically that's what they call people that practiced in the admiralty courts. Now our laws came into us at the time of the Constitution or actually at the time of the revolution because there was articles of confederation before we had a constitution. When that came in it adopted basically the system and laws of England. England historically had three principle courts. They had the King's Court which were the statutes and regulations and laws. There was the Church's Court which was equity, property, inheritance, and there were the admiralty courts. Wow, so a separate court. Different buildings even. Now there were very different regulations and rules on how you could do things and there were different opportunities. There was no jury in an admiralty court. And that stayed with us now until this time. If you have a pure admiralty claim you don't get a jury unless it's connected to something like the Jones Act which is how a seaman gets a recovery for negligence if he's heard at work. So that having been said how did this come in? Well it turns out that the laws in England developed slowly over a long period of time based upon the realization that if the people that owned ships didn't trust the law in your country they wouldn't let your ship go into those ports. And so if you're not if you don't have ships coming and going there's no trade. And it was considered to be so important that they didn't want to leave it to the King and they didn't want to leave it to the people in jury situations or to the churches because this international this international nature of the situation is really what is what's driving it. It's the same deal right now. You know the laws that are administered in admiralty here are virtually the same as every other country in the world. Really? Really. Really. And then at the time you know when the Constitution was adopted it was we had articles of confederation and the whole thing was taken over by local colonies and we tried to get together and form a United States. And the original courts in admiralty at that point were administered by the states and it wasn't working well. There were concerns about prize ships and piracy and things like that. So that was being handled under the articles of confederation. When we develop the Constitution we have some records they're called the Federalist Papers and then there are diaries and Hamilton in the Federalist Papers I think it's a Federalist 78 says hey you know admiralty what's to argue about this everybody agreed and the states all surrendered their right to administer admiralty to the federal government. Our Constitution specifically says that we that there is jurisdiction in the federal courts for admiralty and maritime cases and so that's basically what it is and there's this need for uniformity. People with ships doing trade want to know that if they pull into Long Beach they're going to be treated the same way as Honolulu or New Jersey and did this all start from England I mean is this oh it goes way before then oh no no no you look at there's a Justinian wrote one of the Caesars right wrote very you know wrote a lot about how the laws were developing and he makes reference to the laws of the Rhodian laws and that he says that those laws are adopted into Rome to the extent they don't conflict with other laws that already exist so the whole thing was taken in then and then that was like in the antiquity days Greek and Rome. So I kind of what I'm hearing is this goes beyond boundaries of country this is talking about trade in a way I mean this is when people started trading they had ships and they wanted to have some oh security or uniformity absolutely is that what's going on here the keyword was uniformity at the formation of the constitution and in the middle ages the the the roles of Oleron the laws of Hanstown and Wisby they talked about all these different what are called traditional maritime remedies and the main focus is on the sailors the highest priority ranking lien in Admiralty law is called maintenance and cure that was brought into the law of England by Richard II the Lionheart because his mother Eleanor of Aquitaine who had children on eight different thrones in Europe said to him hey every time we're on a ship it's these sailors that are getting us here and there and they need to be taken care of in Hawaii that's really a big deal because during the wailing periods these ships were coming and plying our waters and people were getting hurt and they would toss them overboard or just leave them in Maui which is why the daemons you know about the daemons the daemon the semen's church these are historical roots they developed because they wanted to take care of the semen and the kingdom of Hawaii created laws that required vessels to post a bond to make sure that their semen were going to be taken care of should there be an incident well okay but but why didn't the land law i mean what why didn't you trust the land law why you know why didn't why couldn't you take care of sailors by going to a court or somehow going into the the country that you were in when the ship landed and and deal with it there what what was wrong with that well the uniformity aspect and you see they're competing interests here what you're talking about is federalism each state should have a right to experiment with laws that work for their community and there's a tremendous respect for the individual laws that emerged in the location where the incident is being tried but the competing interest is well what happens if they're not looking out for the the interests of admiralty the i this maintenance and cure i keep coming back to it because i'm involved in that a lot that's personally a big passion of mine i'm really into helping people that are hurt it's not just the workers i help passengers and admiralty law and the laws of the states are vastly different in regards to how things are taken care of well for example yeah please people who load and unload boats that was a big deal in england because um you've heard the terms flotsam and jets those are things that came off of a sinking ship and that floated up onto the shore did it belong to the king did it belong to the person who found it or this recent case involving a fire on a vessel out at sea right 3500 brand new cars on it and people jumping overboard and some of them have been lost well these questions like salvage you have an absolute duty to go out and help in a life salvage situation ships are diverted you're under required to try to come to their aid if the only thing you're doing is saving human lives there's no pay in it but if it's related to the fact that you're saving property then the fact that you engaged in life salvage becomes a priority claim also i mean you think about it you got you know there's a ship out at sea it's on fire you got to bring your ship right next to it it could explode there's a lot of danger in it or all these local salvers rushing out there to try to help well it's not only the humanitarian aspect of it is if they save that property they're entitled to a significant share of its worth so it's a way to encourage people to do something good yes in a way not just for trade but to protect lives and and and people but i guess i mean it it also comes into well i mean we're going to give you something for this i mean we're going to make it work just compensation yeah and that's figured out by courts or mediators or it can be by contract you know come over here and help me i'll give you something and then that's actually a contract even if it's just verbal in in in in admiralty law mm-hmm okay all right now you know why can't you go into state court well you can go into state court because after we developed the constitution we had a judiciary act in i think 1789 and there's a term in there saving to suitors their rights at common law so if you can show that you had a right to have your case heard at common law which meant a state court a jury then you preserve those rights in our law in america well how does that come into play now right you have these people that are loading and unloading ships and they're generally workers in our state but they are not subject to the state workers comp law they're subject to the longshore harbor worker compensation that's a federal federal law with a whole program that's administered by administrative law judges and very peculiar rules 95 percent of the workers probably 99 percent of the workers in hawaii are not covered by it they're only covered by state workers comp so the vast majority of workers comp lawyers have nothing to do with this law never heard of it well they've heard of it they know oh no gotta send it to somebody who doesn't because it's full of what i call pitfalls for the unwary you know different situations that come up that you have to do a certain procedure and if you don't you could be out of luck so there's this that's how you take care of these workers and basically i get my cases from other workers comp lawyers who say oh no this is so and the type of workers are those that are working on the docks they're working on ships or both or what longshore those are the people load you know harbor workers people building in the harbors uh people who repair ships those are the people that are covered and that's a big question who is you know like secretaries are not but the people that actually do it security guards are not covered but the people are actually performing the work going on and off of ships they're covered now that's just the workers program there's another body of admiralty and maritime law that's exclusively administered by the federal courts and those procedures were vastly different than the rest of the procedures in uh in legal system up until recently when america tried to consolidate its courts so that there weren't three doors that you walk through admiralty uh 1331 you know statutory law or equity admiralty 1333 is its own beast and there are special rules at the back of the uh federal rules of civil procedure that only apply so if i'm a federal judge i have to know this stuff right i mean you yeah do all i mean is this part of their training is this something that they that they have to know and we're really blessed with the judiciary in our state that is phenomenally talented and we are the source of the major decisions in maritime law at this moment that affected in hawaii yeah it comes from hawaii um and these okay so that one of the tragedies is it's the oldest law but it's too often not understood by lawyers and judges but they get it you know remember sam king sam used to say my job is to decide right it's to reach that decision it's the ninth circuits job to figure out if it's right or not and that's really what what happens is you know ninth circuit can't decide what the facts are the only the court that hears the facts so what we've gotten you know the federal judiciary is really in an awkward situation because it's the most exclusive club in america who gets to be a federal judge and they have no no voice whatsoever in who the new members are going to be right it's a very awkward and they just can't stand up and protect themselves it was extraordinary for justice roberts to get on the public media and to correct the president's misinterpretation that judges were different based upon which president appoints them and there's reasons you know the constitution gives them life tenure their salaries can never be reduced and that independence was very important at the time we became a nation because the king of england used to like cut the salary of the judge who ruled against him or get rid of his job and that that protection creates a very independent judiciary that we are proud to be a part of so and the admiralty judges are federal judges they they got to learn this stuff uh and they they got to be up on it and hawaii has has a history of of admiralty law and looks like we're maybe even into the future we're on top of the game you mentioned the future let me tell you well wait wait before you do that we're going to take a break okay and then we're going to come back and talk about the future okay well all right yeah thank you so we're we'll be back in the one minute hi i'm rusty kamori host of beyond the lines on think tech hawaii my show is based on my book also titled beyond the lines and it's about creating a superior culture of excellence leadership and finding greatness i interview guests who are successful in business sports and life which is sure to inspire you in finding your greatness join me every monday as we go beyond the lines at 11 a.m aloha hi my name is emmy ortega anderson inviting you to join us every tuesday here on pinoy power hawaii with think tech hawaii we come to your home at 12 noon every tuesday we invite you to uh listen watch uh for our mission of empowerment we aim to enrich and lighten educate entertain and we hope to empower again maraming salamat po mabuhay and aloha welcome back to law across the sea with jay free time is my guest my name is mark schlaufe uh welcome back on board jay uh we are talking now you're you're you're passionate about admiralty law oh i love what i do i can tell lucky to have a chance to be almost 70 years old and work in a what what you know what what's the really we before we had our break we're talking about kind of the relationship between hawaii and admiralty law the past you talked a little bit about the past and sailors that were thrown overboard and had to be dealt with tell me a little bit more what what what is our background in hawaii what are some of the cases maybe you've handled or are handling and how does it portend for the future i mean is that are we back in the sailing days of you know formasted ships or is there something going on yeah we're going from sailing ships to sailing spaceships to doing work out far away the same rules and it's with admiralty law it is you know i believe that the work that we're doing now to really pin down maintenance and cure is going to apply to workers in the future let me give you a hypothetical elin mosk decides he's going to build a structure out on the moon and he has a hundred workers up there and something terrible happens half of them get sick half of them die the guy walks into bank bankruptcy court and says yeah you know i guess it didn't work takes his marbles goes to play a different game and who's going to take care of those and he has to be discharged in bankruptcy and he can be asking in the federal bankruptcy court hey let me out i didn't do anything wrong here i'm sorry i can't pay this bill i'm going to go have another life well we have a case right now and i don't really like to talk about pending cases but there's one in which a guy got hurt on a boat on the big island and that his employer had bought insurance for everything else for himself for his boat for the for the people that were passengers but not for his workers so the man gets pretty badly injured his head's busted open and he's goes to the hospital and he tries to get maintenance and cure now maintenance is a small under the admiralty law under the admiralty law okay okay and there's special rules he doesn't have to prepay court costs to go in they're very welcoming to having sailors come in and that tradition was developed in america and it's very strongly held and goes back to the 1800s all right guy goes into bankruptcy court and says hey i can't afford to pay it winds up buying back his assets from bankruptcy goes on to have a new life and pushes away the his responsibility to take care of the worker so the the shipowner is that correct yes uh decides that uh i will just put this in bankruptcy and i'm able to personally buy back from the company or whatever whatever owns the ship the assets but is not willing to pay for the that's right and that's a case that i have now squarely in front of the court and we're trying to say that there's a violation of the constitution here bankruptcy courts are created under article one of the constitution and the judiciary is under article three which specifically says admiralty and maritime law are preserved are preserved but they're but not only preserved that's the that's the enabling act the constitution itself gives the authority to the federal court to decide issues of admiralty and maritime law bankruptcy law they have a whole other agenda their job is to like try to help out the creditors but really to help an individual discharge debts that they can't handle and so the future of this is really a big deal we have a case that comes out of the court now this barn's case which is the leading authority on maintenance and cure at this time in the entire united states and we think that there's more to come out of this as we try to sort out the problem and in terms of how do the judges know it these people are very talented they they have the best law clerks so the the barn's case is at the first level well we've already gone up to the to the to the ninth circuit one time and come back down and we're trying to figure it out what the ninth circuit wants is this man to get his maintenance and cure to figure out a way to get him a little bit of money maintenance is the money you need to support yourself while you're getting cure and that's the latin word for care medical care until you reach maximum medical improvement so how does the ninth circuit say you deal with bankruptcy court and admiralty court together they haven't addressed that yet but it's my hope that the work we're doing not only is going to help my client get a recovery but is also going to help iron out what the rules are of how these kinds of problems are taken uh you know i got into this really because i when i became a lawyer i had gone to two lane and that's the world's leading admiralty in maritime law school but when i went there it wasn't to learn admiralty i was working in organ transplants and i thought that i was going to do something in terms of legislation and i've tried to run for office i can't get elected to dogcatcher but i do i did get into this maritime law stuff and then hawaii is in the unique position we're the most remote island group in the world we are further away from anything else so basically our we cover about eight percent of the land mass in terms of where you get to the next nearest neighbor which would be on california so these are issues that are really significant and basically at the time you know what hawaii was forming only ships brought things in and out now we've got airplanes and stuff well okay so i want to go back to the barn's case a little bit or maybe we don't have to talk exactly about the case but how will admiralty law affect space travel how do you i mean we obviously we don't have any cases on it right now but what are your thoughts they'll be here soon and what a person is a sailor and maybe that turn will be called an astronaut or something later on if they're more or less permanently attached to a vessel in navigation a spaceship or a program out of board and that their work contributes to the mission of the vessel and that's what we've got i mean the people that used to be on the american hawaii cruises lines who cut hair or waited on tables they were as much as a seaman as the guy turning the rudder or putting stoking the engines so it's everybody that's covered and i don't know how the future is going to unfold but my hunch is that we're laying the groundwork now for the protection of workers for hundreds of years into the future so i mean that's really a kick i don't do golf but i love what i do in terms of social engineering trying to figure out ways and it's not like they're my ideas that are going to work it's just pushing the idea it seems like a natural consequence when you think about it now that you've put it out there their vessels and great similarities you know you know and and how do we protect the the seaman if you will well that when that's what we're trying to do at least to the point you know whether or not they get a recovery for negligence you know whether they get paid for their other damages how do you make sure they get medical care how do you make sure that they're not abandoned how do you make sure that those expenses are not put on to the rest of the people in the state and that the kingdom of hawaii they required the ship to put up a bond if they're coming into the to our harbors because they knew that there something could happen and was there were a lot of these people that needed care and there was you know the daemons thank god you know these guys these were missionaries who came and really tried to do good and they did well as they say you know and you know and so I am you know I I I just sort of fell into this and I got to help a lot of other lawyers doing their admiralty cases I remember you remember Dave Shutter said of course David told me says you know it's not having all the cases or for that matter having the best cases it's about a market share it just need enough work to come in so you can do your job and do it well and process well it seems to me that in hawaii we were ideal for that for you know for admiralty law and I never practiced admiralty law I kind of knew a little bit about it but I didn't know all that you've told me today and nor have I thought really towards the future of it well possibility you know okay well I thought it was a it was a dream job to come to hawaii it's surrounded by water but what I didn't realize before I got here is there were what's called a dead-end port the real admiralty big actions are happening in New Orleans where I went to school that's the biggest port in America or in you know the other cases where there's lots of trade lots of trade lots of men lots of cargo lots of accidents and that leads to the cases and the conflicts that come but there's there's plenty here and you know the best lawyers practicing in hawaii are not necessarily even from hawaii there are many good people in my field that come from california and practice helping these stevedores along with myself there's so much work out there we welcome people to come in and help do it because it's a very complicated program are you seeing young lawyers from hawaii being interested in this area do you see that I mean it's not something that the law schools promote that I see or perhaps I don't know yeah but it seems to me that it's an area that's kind of aside from the normal commercial practice that a lawyer would have well it's about you know getting out of law school you have these debts and you need to earn a living I worked in this building one four below at alcantara and frame when I got out of law school they hired me out of too late and but for that I wouldn't have had a way to do anything and after a year I left and I earned my own my own way but it's that kind of an entry-level position it's hard to come they were an admiralty law oh yeah they're still they still are bob frames probably you know well there's I just want to say the best lawyers in town but there's bob there's proud foot there's other people that are really knowledgeable about this far in excess of my knowledge and abilities and I'm you know I'm glad to be able to be at the table and fight for my clients rights it's really exciting but let me ask you you know you've talked a lot about the background and history of admiralty law what is it meant to you what what what have you what have you learned from admiralty law about maybe yourself and about everybody humanity what what have you learned okay well I mean you know I've sort of like to look through traditions and history me personally I feel like I'm on a mission from God I was in the blues brothers movie I was friends with john velucci and so I really take that seriously like I didn't start out on this path but I feel that this truly had something to do with my destiny I mean everything from my joking business cards that say saving seam in the old-fashioned way and you know I just really took off I really enjoy that kind of work and I came into this through public health I worked in organ transplantation harvesting humanized before law school that's why I went to Tulane they had a medical school there I was going to finish medical school it turned out it was this fantastic opportunity and I wanted to be able to have a family and to support myself so I dove into this maritime law program and I it just the maintenance and cure and the idea of helping people I that's the kind of thing that I really like to do it's not for everybody a lot of people are more comfortable defending the rights of ship owning companies from fraudulent claims by workers that's not where I come from you know I hear a guy tell me a story I basically believe him I want to make sure that it really happened and we go we're all in we're about you know doing it to like try to keep pace do well and finish things that's the motto around my office we try to keep up and there's a lot of work to be able to do a workers comp practice you need to have a lot of cases running because you never know when any of them is going to finish it's not like my clients are paying me anything they can't even afford the costs of filing fees and stuff I have to front all that and so that's sort I love what I do and now as far as new people there are not many people going into this because there's no guarantee paycheck in this you really have to do a volume practice to be able to do it there are lawyers that specialize in doing the biggest in the best cases and those can be very very profitable but the rest of the people normal people's problems we specialize in that and that's what you like to do is help others and that's what gives you your meaning in law and law across the sea here yeah with us well Jay I have to thank you for coming on and talking about your background and and Admiralty Law and I hope we can maybe hear some more about what happens in the future on some of these cases I hope so thank you very much thank you sir aloha aloha we will be back in two weeks with law across the sea thank you very much aloha


The United States Army John F Kennedy Special Warfare Center in schools sniper competition Not only is the name a lot to take in so is the competition itself You will only find the most elite in their job here. Yes. These are the best best snipers in the world I have no doubt But it isn't simply point-and-shoot rather the competition focuses on shoot-and-move Practics that mimic wartime scenarios snipers from around the world hone their skills and go head-to-head This tightly knit community has always been and will remain an important force in today's military and usually Go out with a bang Reporting from Fort Bragg, North Carolina, I'm Army Sergeant Megan Berry


Welcome to another episode of Islamabad today on think tech a lot today. We're going to be speaking about governance innovation and reforms How can government policy making have a trickle-down effect on local populations? And how do innovative techniques strategies and you could say different ideas can try and assist the government in trying to make Sure that policy making has that effect on local populations And we do see this great divide between the population as well as government policy making And what are the areas that can act as bridges to try and make sure that we can actually address this divide? I have with me member of the governance innovation and reforms at the Planning Commission of Pakistan Mr. Adnan Rafiq. Mr. Adnan Rafiq Thank you so much for joining me on the show Thank you for having me All right, so let's talk about innovation and reforms and governance Why do you think it's necessary to make sure that you could say governance can actually be you know Reform to a large extent and what sort of innovative techniques can actually be implemented to try and make sure that those ends can be met So a lot of people see Pakistan as a country that is very difficult to govern And I think primarily the perception arises from the fact that Pakistan is a very diverse country. It has geographic diversity It has social diversity It has you know economic inequality. So if you look at it, we have all sort of social economic fault lines So we have, you know, ethnic divide. There's a religious divide then urban rural gender gap We have it all and also if you look at the geography right from a very difficult mountainous Trane down to the deserts And so on It's a it's it's it's you know, it's a mix And then we are in a neighborhood, you know, that has been fraught with different sort of geopolitical and global problems you look at Afghanistan you look at Iran and and then we have been fraught with you know, complicated relationship on our eastern border with India So if you look at all the mix of things, you know, there are Challenges and and as a result you know in the last 70 75 years, I think our governance system has been evolving and It's still work in progress, which is why it's extremely important that we keep an eye on the ball We make continuous Efforts to incrementally but surely improve our governance system and To answer your your question more specifically look the world has changed in Pakistan We have a new generation. We have new demographics We have a completely different Pakistan today than we had even 20 years ago and this new Pakistan demands a very different approach to governance a very different sort of service delivery and The state ought to respond to these emerging needs, which is why I think governance is central to to do our societal life and for the future of our nation Okay, so give a certain examples of the kind of innovative techniques that actually need to be implemented to try and make sure The governance models can be more you could say public responsive or society responsive. I Think you know, I'll you know a lot of people talk about it and tech and all that I'll come to that But in the latter half perhaps I think the more essential bit that we need to have in our governance is a Politics of consensus or our governing with consensus, which means an inclusive approach Where people are duly represented? Proportionally in the power structure where people have a say and have a voice in deciding various policies which affect their lives and That is absolutely critical and I think we made some progress in this respect since the 18th amendment because that transferred a lot of powers to the provinces where it should belong and you know it kind of Strengthened strengthened our federalism now that leaves us obviously with enormous coordination Challenges as we saw that when we had the COVID pandemic or the floods during the last year that needed an integrated coordinated response and I think we are evolving models like the NCOC or the NFR CC Where all stakeholders were brought together on one platform to provide that integrated and Ordinated response that these enormous challenges required. So again, these two are good examples of how a Consultative inclusive approach can be adopted to govern the country Now this needs to go beyond the provinces as well And we need to have a third tier of governance through local governments so that we can complete this The political space where people Communities can have their say and can decide for themselves. So I think that is the critical bit which is still missing in this regard second is the modes of service delivery again, we've had a political system and culture Where we have relied on what we call the politics of patronage Which means that, you know, if we need to get some work done You will rely on your friend or family or someone within the power hierarchy who will facilitate Your, you know, whatever you need to get done even if it's completely legitimate and and and and your right to have but even for Getting basic services service delivery, whether it's justice and security Whether it's just boarding a flight, you know on on the national flag area You will have instances where you will have to call up someone and someone will As a favor facilitates you right this this has been our culture Now this needs to shift from the culture or the politics of patronage Which is trading favors to a politics of service delivery Where the political players accrue the the political capital by providing Good efficient effective services rather than through this informal system of You know, delivering patronage. So I think that is absolutely key a significant shift that we need and this is the only way Through which we'll be able to provide services indiscriminately Irrespective of who's the recipient we have to raise our service standards and and and some good examples exist Where we have achieved it. So you take the example of motorway police It's a good example to see where everyone is treated the same way Same rules apply to everyone. You cannot escape If you make a mistake, you know, you will have to pay the fine as well If you need assistance, we'll get assistance as Like the same way as anyone else Nadra is another example where you go to any nadra center There is a process you will have to follow the queue. You will get your services So I think double one double two, you know, the rescue service again has has done a phenomenal job So I think we have these examples that we need to build upon and expand so that the all public service delivery is rules based And is efficient and effective and provide services to all citizens irrespective of any needs for asking favor or anything So that's the second thing and in order to achieve this Of course technology has a major role because this is only possible When we move from Service delivery model, which is more outcome centric than the outcomes centric. So we have to move from Laying down our key performance indicators within the public sector Which from just outputs So for example, if we are building a school Generally the KPIs we look at is whether the building has been constructed Whether it's been furnished whether we have teachers and whether we have now running School or not what we do not often look at Are the learning outcomes that we are achieving by the provision of that whole infrastructure and and and human resource So we have to shift from output centric Service delivery to outcome centric service delivery and In order to enable that you need transparency you need evidence-based policymaking And technology is a key tool that we can use to leverage That we need to leverage in order to achieve this right So i'm very clear in that that it is, you know, as someone said even in the governance forum that you mentioned That the tools of governance have changed from the paper and pen to, you know, tech and You know with now artificial intelligence coming in and You know it has become digital um And therefore we need to incorporate digital technologies as much as possible To to achieve the the ends that i just mentioned All right, so one of the key tools is e-governance When we talk about e-governance, it's to try and make sure that services can actually be expedited to the general public And one of the keys regarding e-governance is to try and make sure that bureaucratic inertias are actually tackled But if you take a look at the majority of pakistanis who actually need to get registered They need a few government services with regard to um, you know, even possible criminal complaints They do complain of a lot of bureaucratic inertias which are actually taking place So do you think that this is a major hurdle and if yes, then what needs to be done to tackle that? Absolutely, I mean look the state institutions in pakistan were established during the british colonial age and even then they were established with a sole Perview of subjugating the people not necessarily to serve the people A good example is is the police which was established along the irish constabulary model rather than the metropolitan policing model Even at that time. So therefore, uh, we've had, you know, sort of a post-colonial state institutions That are not really geared to to to serve the people And and and they have, you know, a lot of Inertia, as you said in rigidity when it comes to You know, achieving the objectives that they ought to achieve And I think there will be an incremental process through which this needs to be changed The most important thing In bringing about any change is to achieve stakeholder consensus, right and in pakistan That has been lacking frankly And in order to push Relevant stakeholders to agree on for example civil service reforms, which is which would be absolutely key to these things right now or civil service Lacks any sort of genuine? or effective performance management It lacks, uh, you know, even Specialization in various fields Uh, we rely too much on generalists Who lead policy making exercises in in their respective? Domains, uh, then we also Need the right incentives Uh, as I said, uh for them to perform. They are generally overworked poorly paid and uh, not supported As as much as they should be So, uh, I think we we need quite a major overhaul of the whole Civil service system right from the recruitment and induction Down to their performance progression their their career progression performance management and the retirement and and the incentive structure that uh that they have and uh In order in order to to meet, uh, you know the in order to respond to to the uh aspirations that the citizens now have And this is a tall order, right? So I think no one should be under the illusion that this can be done in 90 days or it can be done overnight Uh, this will be a slow process as I said, there are as a few examples I mentioned give you to give you another example Pakistan customs, um Recently, uh, installed just like we are having this, uh, conversation over zoom So they they started a zoom, uh, they they established a zoom system over which Uh, the businessman or the importers exporters they could They could have their meetings with the customer customs officials through zoom rather than going all the way to their office waiting in queues and you know All of that so they created an online system where you can book your appointment You use your CNIC number if you miss two appointments That means you don't show up without rescheduling it third time the system won't allow you to book and you will have to go to their office But it worked, uh, fantastically. So I think, uh, similarly we need to incorporate Uh, emerging technologies, uh to facilitate the citizens and what's important for the power elites to understand is that uh Now with 250 million people This is a more sure short way for them to serve the citizens and get the political dividends Rather than the the informal, uh favor The trading system or the patronage based system that that has been uh in operation So so this is where I see that you know, gradually incrementally, we'll be able to improve our service delivery Much of this also has to do with digital literacy And uh, you know, the population being well aware of how to use softwares and applications and you know Online databases to try and suit their needs Do you think that there needs to be more training of the local population as to what digital literacy is? I'll come to the panels of digital literacy, uh later and digitalization later But with regard to literacy, do you think that there needs to be more training programs that can actually make sure That the population is made well aware of how to digitally get work done? I think of course, uh, one has to consider the digital divide and make sure that those Who are not, uh, who do not have digital literacy? Um, due to various factors, uh, they are not excluded, right? So you always have to cater to all citizens irrespective of their ability To access public services through technology or not However, there is an expanding constituency. Of course with the advent of touch screen phone, you know, a lot of people Uh, you know find it much easier to access services Again sms has been used, you know, just the simple text messaging has been used quite effectively uh to uh communicate with the citizens and uh, for example, you can check your, uh, um, electoral data where your vote is registered, etc Through by simply sending a sms. So, you know, in a lot of instances, you don't need very high tech systems You can simply use simpler and Formats or interfaces that people are more familiar with like like sms, but uh, even for more complicated applications I think that as long as I think one thing we need to do Much better is to use local languages When we create interfaces because in a lot of instances, it's more the language barrier than then, you know, along with the Language barrier that makes it very difficult for imagine if you have a screen in front of you and you cannot read it, right? Uh, then you wouldn't know what to do with that app even if you have installed it in your phone So again, uh, we need an approach that is inclusive of people who cannot access services through mediated Biotechnology, but at the same time because we have a young population 65% of the country are young people They have enormous capacity to learn and I think we should always have tutorials guides and A supportive material to enable more and more people to use technology A good example is, you know, you you you landed Dubai airport, right? and irrespective of Who's in the plane? Now I increasingly see almost everyone going through the smart gates right, whether They are literate illiterate, whether they are IT professional or a laborer you know, if you Provide space and opportunity for people to learn You know, they can learn But it's important thing is to have those options available be inclusive facilitate as much as possible Okay, so when we talk about impediments towards innovation and reform and governance I mean, there are many, you know, you could say stakeholders or you could say many different variables and factors Who would be resistant to any innovative techniques from the government bureaucracies as well? So how do you think, uh, what is the Manor in which such, you know irritants can be weeded out to try and make sure that innovation reform can actually take place Yes, so first of all the pressure has to come from the citizenry, right? So citizens, uh through social media, we have very vocal and very expressive, uh citizenry Increasingly we have an urban educated middle class population. I think that's the real poor group That provides a lot of impetus for change. So you look at not just Lahore Karachi and Ravel Pindi But we have, uh, you know, the Smaller cities are growing expanding increasingly getting urbanized and people now have a shared worldview created through diffusion of electronic and social media So people increasingly there's a huge constituency that aspires for the same level of services delivered by the government as in the developed world, right? And that creates the pressure on all government functionaries To improve their performance be transparent, you know and be effective So so one thing is that there has to be that social place Social pressure because the governments and systems only respond and change if they are compelled to do so, right? Otherwise the inertia continues now the job of people like us is really to translate that demand or social pressure into uh genuine and You know sustainable change within the governance systems, right? And um, I and and that's where it's it's it's a bit of Back and forth because you are right. No one wants to change Unless you know, they are forced to do so or unless there is enough Either compulsion or incentive to change. So I think that given the mix of stakeholders we have Increasingly as we move towards The politics of service delivery increasingly as we move Increasingly as we interact with you know more urban middle-class young population Um, it will have to you know the mode of governance and service delivery have to change unfortunately, one thing we haven't done well is that we've gone down the route of You know accountability in a sense that Rather than ensuring transparency and enhancing public accountability through the right to information act Through setting cities and bodies like public safety commissions through putting out data out in the public through portals and other digital tools We created a bit of dis harmony within the system through institutions who really came building the sword In the name of accountability now that you know puts the whole system into Into a fix because a bureaucracy simply stopped, you know signing the files and And getting the work done that was necessary To run the affairs of the state. I think we need to better balance our approach We need to emphasize more on transparency and public accountability and let The institutions and the laws that we already have deal with any irregularities And and and then apply them fairly and squarely right so that there's no perception of any discrimination or persecution In using or wielding the the sword of accountability and also we have to look at genuinely the Predicament that a lot of government servants are in we have to for example look at the salary gap For comparable positions in the private sector and in the public sector right and make sure that that gap does not grow enormously because without adequate incentivization and adequate Salary structures and and so on you can't expect people to You know remain motivated for For very long time and these this is a service where people, you know spend their whole lives in 30 35 years Is is the average duration of? Of of a person's tenure in public sector right so you have to Make sure that they have the support that they need as well as the pressure to to perform move towards performance management and deliver better services So with increased digitalization, you also have an increase in spite or a spike in threats And you mentioned the pakistan lives in a very difficult neighborhood. You have afghanistan to the west. We have india to the east They are hostilities with iran as well So in light of that there is this possibility that increased digitalization could result in cyber crimes or acting Or you could say disruption from nefarious Elements, so how do you think a pakistan can actually navigate through this delicate balance of a initiating digitalization and governance And also securing its national databases and its national infrastructure from nefarious design There's a lot of emphasis now on cyber security. We've already last year established a national center on cyber security putting together leading research organizations and universities together And different state institutions are enhancing and developing capacity for cyber security. Of course data security is a very important Issue and as we move towards greater digitalizing not just public data, even our banking sector or security sector and so on needs, you know Good standards of cyber security But again, these are not things that no one else in the world has done You know, various countries have achieved good levels of cyber security and so can we Again, I think a technical solution is not as much of a problem Then the political will And consensus among stakeholders once we achieve that Then, you know, once there once there is meaningful consensus Then, you know technical solutions will follow And there will be a there will there might be teething problems and you know a learning curve to go through but Again, this is not something that is undoable Mr. Adnan, you mentioned You could say consensus consensus can only take place if there's policy continued And we've noticed that in Pakistan there's a lot of political turmoil. You also see governments being toppled leaders getting arrested And you you do witness this culture or climate of fear, which is prevents Which is preventing policy continuity to take place. So for that you do need political stability for consensus But that is some something that has alluded Pakistan for quite some time Absolutely, I I think that we need to make policies that have greater ownership than just the sitting government And we need to develop a culture where The opposition parties do not um, you know scuttle An ongoing policy simply because uh, it doesn't have their label on it, right So if a policy was initiated in the previous by by by the previous government um As long as you know It is delivering Its objectives as long as it is deemed necessary for for for the country Then it should be continued and that will only happen If we again where I started from that it will only happen when we have consensus on Key policies that that are absolutely critical for the come for the country and that Consensus has to go beyond just the sitting government rather. It has to be multi stakeholder consensus that involves the civil and military side that involves federal government and the provinces and Yeah, a whole of a nation approach, right now, of course, of course when a new government comes in They they have to review policies Through the lens of their manifesto their priorities What they have promised to the electorate now that's a legitimate Obviously, uh, that that's important to happen. But again, uh, you know, it's better That you refine and improve ongoing policies rather than completely Shutting them down and reinventing the wheel And I think that goes back to how the policies are developed at the first place if we are consultative if we involve all the key stakeholders that need to be Involved it will become difficult for any government to shun that policy because even if they'll reinvent the wheel They will reach pretty much the same conclusions, right? So I think we are making some progress in that respect um and You can see for example bis the social protection policy And the major social protection programs that we have they have survived three changes in government, right? We should learn from that and replicate it in other critical sectors of national importance So that we can we can have continuity of policies, uh in those domains as well all right Mr. Anand Rafiq, thank you so much for joining on the show It's it's been a pleasure. Thank you So that's all that we have for Islamabad today on things like a while You can follow us on social media pages for all the latest update until next time. Take care


This is stock number 10671. We are here at Summit Automotive in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin. You're new and used heavy-duty truck headquarters. Today, we are checking out this super clean 2012 Ford F-250 Crew Cab Short Box Lariat. This truck has the 6.7 liter power stroke diesel. It has been fully safe and inspected by our service shop. It has a fresh oil and filter change. All the fluids have been checked and topped off. I believe it has brand new or like new tires on it. And this one's 100% ready to go. Dark blue metallic over sterling gray is the color scheme on this truck. I really like that combo on here. We shoot all of our videos in 1080p, 60 frames per second. So if you have HD capabilities on your computer tablet or smartphone device, turn them on right now because it is definitely your best way to check out the quality and condition of the truck before seen in person. And if you'd like to check out all the photos on this truck in the upper right-hand party screen, there's a link right to our website. Click that and check us out there. This one's going to come with the 20-inch factory alloy rims with the chrome covers. And it has Sumito Encounter HT LT275 65R20 tires on it. And these tires are very new. I'd say 95% of the tread left or more. Front fender is in excellent shape. I didn't see any dents or dings on that. Headlight lenses are nice and clear. Front bumper is in excellent shape. I didn't see any dents or dings. It does have the factory fog lights. The grille is in great condition as well. And the hood, I did not see any dents or dings on that. Passengers side front fender is in excellent condition. And the passenger side rim, no scuffs or scrapes on there. Very nice condition. As you go down this side of the truck, take note of how clean the body is. How reflective and mirror-like that paint is. We take these HD videos so if you are far away or even if you're close by and just cannot make the trip down but you're still interested in purchasing the vehicle, you can see the vehicle, hear the vehicle, and have confidence in what you were looking at before you even get here so that when you do get here, there's absolutely no surprises. And that's why we offer the Summit Auto Fastpass option in the upper right hand part of your screen. A link right to our website where you can apply for financing, get pre-approved, see a payment quote, even appraise the trade, all from the comfort of your own home. So when you get here, all you've got to do is drive the truck, love it, and you'll be all set to go look how clean that frame and underbody is. I believe this truck came out of Florida. It has all the remaining factory exhaust and those lower rockers all look really great as well. Back tires are just as new as the front tires. And this back rim is in excellent condition as well. As we come around to the back of the vehicle, rear bumpers in pretty nice shape. It does have the backup parking sensors. Full towing package, which includes a receiver hitch, four pin and seven pin wiring. It has a very nice ARE color matched topper, or tunnel cover I should say. And it has a LineX spray-in bed liner. And that's in really nice condition. You can see any major dents or dings. And this one does have the tailgate step assist on it, which is a really nice feature. You can see how nice that LineX bed liner is. That's what I got on my truck. I'd recommend LineX to anyone. Tailgate's in nice shape. It is a locking tailgate and it does have a backup camera. And as you go down the driver's side, very clean as well. FX4 sticker is in nice shape. And for full disclosure, this back rim is in excellent condition too. No scuffs or scrapes. Down the rest of this side of the truck, really good. It does have the driver's side door code entry. You have the factory chrome step bars. They are in nice shape. And you do get the power scope mirrors. I'll show you how those work. Door code entry, we do have the door code. And to get these mirrors, they power fold in like so. I always like showing both sides so that you know that both sides are working properly. And then they also telescope in and out. And you can see that side's working good. And so is that side. Memory driver's seat, power windows, power locks, power mirrors.  There are no rips, there are no tears on the seats. Really nice condition. You do get driver's side lumbar, weather tech floor mats throughout. Power pedals, auto headlamps. And as we hop inside the truck here, you can see that this one has 73,773 miles. Instrument cluster is very nice and clean. Comes with a leather wrap steering wheel. Bluetooth and audio controls on the right. Cruise controls on the left. You get the six-speed automatic transmission with the optional tap shift. AM, FM, and I believe serious XM radio capabilities. Dual climate control, factory brake controller. You get four up-fitter switches, heated and cooled seat buttons. Turned-out four-wheel drive. I'm going to turn that cooled seat button on. It's kind of hot out today. It has a sync system with the Bluetooth. You also get an AUG in a USB jack. Stability control. Townhill assist control. You get that nice wood grain trim on the dash. Passengers side seat, no rips or tears on there. And the headliner is in excellent shape. Side curtain airbags. And up here you get your map plates and power sliding with your window button. Your backup camera is going to show up right in the mirror there. We'll take a quick look at the back seats and then we'll check out under the hood. Back seats are just as clean as the front seats. No rips, no tears. Got that power sliding rear window. It has the locking storage container underneath the back seats. And that is locked right now. But that locks with the ignition key. Carpeting and floor mats are nice and clean back here.  And some latch tether anchors for any child car seats. You get the child safety locks on the back doors. And the bottoms of the doors all look really good on this truck. Coming from Florida, you're going to get that. We'll take a quick look under the hood. And I would personally like to thank you for checking out the video today. And hopefully from this HD video, you'll have been able to tell just how clean this truck is all the way around inside. Under the hood, we have a 6.7 liter power stroke diesel. Engine bay is very clean, runs very smooth. This truck has been fully safety and inspected by our service shop. It has a fresh oil and filter change. All the fluids have been checked and topped off. Truck has been gone through mechanically. 100% has four like new tires on here. And is 100% ready to go. I would highly recommend it from a quality and condition standpoint. And to see more pictures of this truck or one of our other 450 new and used cars, trucks, SUVs, minivans, Wranglers, half tons, three quarter tons, one tons. You name it, we got it. Go to our website, www.SummitAuto.com. Full pictures and descriptions of every single vehicle from two locations all at SummitAuto.com. And if you'd like to check out more HD videos, you can go to YouTube.com. Remember to like, subscribe, and share on this video and all the videos that you see there. In fact, in a second, you will see a link to subscribe to our YouTube channel on your left. It links more F-250 truck videos like this one on your right. If you have not been to our website on the bottom link to this vehicle on our website, click those, check us out. And we really look forward to helping with this extremely clean 2012 Ford F-250 Crew Cab Short Box Lariat in dark blue metallic over sterling gray. Thanks again.


Okay, so let's pray first and then we will get into the class. Can somebody please lead us with a word of prayer? Father, we come to the throne of today's Lord. Thank you for this day you have with us Lord. Lord, as we are learning, we are going to learn about the authority Lord you have given to your disciples, to your believers Lord. Lord, give us your knowledge Lord, give us your fear Lord so that we can learn all the things Lord whatever is being taught so that we can add it to our knowledge Lord and we can do your work. You have assigned it to great commission Lord very effectively and with Lord with great compassion Lord. Thank you for this opportunity that we are learning about this Lord, believers authority and believers Lord. Thank you for this day Lord and thank you for everything you have done to Lord, done us for Lord. In Jesus name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you Sid. Thank you for praying. We will follow along from our notes. So in the last class we talked about demons. We understood that they are disembodied spirits and they have a structure. They are led by Satan and they also have some characteristics. They tend to be very specialized in what they do. So we saw the different categories under which we could classify these demon spirits and we got some insight. Now we also said that all the study is so that we can minister to people who are oppressed in a more effective way. Now in that same chapter on page 20 there is a short note on angelic beings. Remember we said that Lucifer that is Satan before he was cast down. Lucifer is also an angelic being. He was cast down with one-thirds of the angels from heaven and now he is opposing God and his purposes. But then you have two-thirds of angels who continue to serve and minister unto the Lord. So a little bit of understanding about these angelic beings also is helpful. So there is a short note there. We are told that angels have been created to serve. In other words minister. The word minister is service. So they have been created to serve or minister. The way in which they minister unto the Lord is through worship and other ways that God delegates them to do. So we will look at that. So primarily their role is ministry or service. Now there are two major categories of angels. One would be called the cherubim. The other would be called the seraphim. The seraphim class of angels are we would know them from the book of Isaiah. You have these angels who are worshipping the Lord. They are flying around him. They have six wings. You also read about them in the book of Revelation. So these are the seraphim in the presence of God. The six-winged angels who are just worshipping the Lord and they are around the throne of God. And the seraphim, the cherubim angels have many roles. Now they have been delegated with different kinds of responsibilities. You might recall Angel Gabriel is one who brought a message to Mary. So messenger angels. They came to give a message or make an announcement, heavenly announcement or you can call Gabriel as a heavenly announcer. You have warring angels. When you read in the book of Jude for the body of Moses, the archangel Michael is at war. So he is a warring angel. You have legions of warrior angels. All this inferences from scripture. I'm not reading the passage for us, but it is all there in our notes. So you have a class of angels known as angelic warrior legions. You have them. You have angels that are called as plague angels or destroying angels that bring for divine judgments. The book of Revelation, you will see the angel came and then this happened, that happened. So they were bringing the judgments with them. So they are known as the plague angels or destroying angels. Again, they are working in line with the purposes of God. Then you have the ministering angels or the angels which are like waiters or attendants. They are present at all times. They are present and activated to protect the believers. So these are the ministering angels. These are all the functions of the angels that come in the category of cherubim. While we understand that demons are fallen angels, we should also understand that there are two thirds of the angelic beings who continue to worship the Lord and continue to perform what God is telling them to do. So any thoughts, any questions on angels before we move further into our study? Okay. So if you do have a question later on as well, it's fine. You can always stop and ask. We'll continue then. I'm on page 22 now. Methods of workings. So far, we have a background. We know about the origin of Satan. We know about his kingdom, the structure that he has demons. He works through his demons. Now what we will study is the methods. What are some of the common methods that Satan uses? Now, the more you study about Satan, what you recognize is that it's a counterfeit. It's a copy but a poor copy of who God is and what God does. In everything, he tries to deceive. He will try to promote something as knowledge but it will end up in bondage. He will try to promote something as blessing, but it will end up in destruction. He'll try to promote something as welfare and that leads to chaos. So that's his way. He tries to copy things in the kingdom. Now, even if you look at the structure of his kingdom, you would think, wow, there are specialized demons who do all the... But he has understood God and God's structure because in the kingdom of God, you have God of plan, God of design, God of organization. All that already exists with God. So what is Satan doing? Just copy, create a counterfeit and try to function to gain his goals and his motives. And that's how he chooses to do it. So when it comes to the workings of Satan, the way he tries to destroy this world and mankind that is made in the image of God, he has followed some tactics. And maybe we could call it fortunate that those tactics seem to be the same that he uses in different ways through generations. So that way, when we understand his tactics, we can be in a better position to deal with him whenever we come across any such thing going on in our lives. Now, when you look at scripture, 2 Corinthians 2, 11, it says that we should not be ignorant of the devices of the enemy. Devices is their schemes, their plots. If you've read in school, you have all those books, novels where you have all these plots and you're trying to figure out, hey, what was the plot? Who is the real culprit in this case? But it's so twisted and manipulated that it's hard to find the culprit. So Satan has become an expert in his devices, schemes, plots, manipulation. So he comes up with all these schemes to entrap people. So he has all these devices. We need to know that. When we are in warfare, anyone who is in the armed forces will tell you that they do study their opponents, they do study their enemies. Because if you don't know that they are going to use certain kinds of weapons, we may not have the defense for that, isn't it? So it's good to know. What are these weapons? What are these methods that the enemy uses on us? And of course, Paul very clearly told the believers, the devil has devices. He has schemes, plots.  When believers say, no, I don't want to know, I just want to follow God, it's a very naive way of living a believer's life. Because we are on the front lines. We are in a battlefield. This earth is infested with the work of the evil one. And whether we like it or not, he constantly tries to interfere. But we need to be aware, be smart enough. Okay, I figured out this is a scheme of the devil. I'm going to cancel. I'm going to destroy it. So he has all these schemes, devices, plots, and he has his methods of working. In our notes here, there's a nice classification. Okay, I will see if I could just a moment so that you can have a look at it. Then, you know, you want to be confused in case you're not seeing the, I hope you can see. Oh, no, not this one. It's not giving me an option. Sorry about that. Yeah, this work. Yes, can you see it now? Yes, ma'am. Okay, wonderful, wonderful. So the methods of working, they've been listed here for us. And it's really helpful. It's classified it just for our understanding. He engages in temptation, intimidation, intrusion, oppression, opposition, deception, oppression, possession, domination, and empowerment. So these are some of the common methods. And so when we understand it, you know, we will be in a better position to deal with it. Now, I also want you to look at this chart over here. Then we will discuss. Okay, do you see a progression here? It is a progression. And that is why you have an arrow increasing levels of demonization. So I have a good look at this. There is influence initially, then there is oppression, then there is possession, and then there is empowerment. Okay, so what we are saying is the enemy uses all of his methods and through that he's trying to gain maximum ground, maximum control in the life of a person. His initial attacks may be through temptation, deception, intimidation, intrusion, opposition. Now, all of these tactics, we will get into them in depth soon. But one thing about all these methods is they can be external in a sense.  I'm like, wow, I love this jewelry. I need to buy it, you know, and I'm completely tempted. Maybe I don't have the money to buy it, but I'm thinking I really want it. So it's an influence on what? Again, notice that his way of starting off with a person is their mind. So he puts a thought, he puts a suggestion in our minds, and I'm talking about like a simple temptation. So temptation starts as an influence over the person. Similarly, you know, deception. Just do this, write that email to your boss, he will never know, he will never know what you actually did, but you can just share some other numbers, no problem, nothing will happen, you will get your promotion. So what is that suggestion in our minds? It's a deceiving thought. We know from God's word, God's word says he who walks in integrity walks securely, but what he who twists his ways will be found out. So that's what the word of God says. So if I don't know the word, if I'm not living by the word, I am a good target for the enemy. Deception, he's trying to tell me, okay, you will get the promotion. Try to do all these things in your workplace. Deception, intimidation, intimidation. Again, all these are influences on us, and we must really be ready to resist them. Intimidation is causing fear. Nothing has happened, but he can put thoughts in our minds and say, hey, what's going to happen to, you know, your money? What's going to happen to your family? So he's just putting all these negative thoughts and the more I give into it, what happens? Remember, this chart is showing an increasing level of demonization. Demonization is greater influence that the demons are getting. Okay, so that's what it is. Don't get all panicky with demonization. What is that greater level of influence on our lives? So the more I give in, I just shared about three simple methods of the enemy. Now let's say as an individual, I give in to the enemy, then he can move further. He can cause oppression in my life. Now oppression also, you know, from just an external kind of an influence, it could show up in me, in the person that I am. We know that human beings are tripartite, right? We have spirit, soul, body. So he can begin to work in my body or in my mind, in my soul, in my emotions, in my willpower. Maybe I might feel that I'm losing my ability to make decisions or to say no. Slowly I'm losing that ability. So what's happening? Greater influence. He's gaining greater, greater influence than moving further ahead. When an individual has been so, you know, so much influenced by Satan and demons, they can also come to a level of possession, okay? Now talking about possession for a Christian, we never use the term possession because scriptures tell us that the Holy Spirit lives inside of us. The Holy Spirit lives on the inside of us. So a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon. You can only have one kind of a spirit dwelling in you. It's either the Holy Spirit or it's a demon spirit. But for every believer, even if they are coming under, you know, what we are saying, right? Influence, oppression, the Holy Spirit is still there in us and that is the good news that we can be overcomers even if the enemy is trying to do all these things with the power of the Holy Spirit. So we can take charge and break, you know, what Satan is doing. But, you know, a lot of believers are not aware of that. So possession is mainly the term is used for an unbeliever when the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in that person. For a believer, we already said, scriptures say, no, you're not, you know, that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. And the Spirit of God fills us. So only an unbeliever, when we say someone is possessed, for an unbeliever, that terminology is correct. For a believer, instead of possession, we can use the word demonized. Okay, and I'll tell you why, because when it comes to possession, right? Now, we might see that the demons have taken control of the faculties of the person. Okay, I'll tell you what I mean by it. Now, an individual who is possessed and that person is not a believer. He does not have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside him. And the demon spirits take charge.  Why have you come here to torment me before my time? Why have you come to torment us before our time? Who is speaking? It's not the man. It's the demons. So they have taken control of the, you could say, the faculty of speech. Maybe the person doesn't want to say it, but the demons are now utilizing his vocal cords and they are communicating. Similarly, when you look at people who are possessed, we use the term manifestation. Manifestation is when the person behaves in an abnormal manner that indicates that there is a demon that has taken control of this individual. That is called as manifestation. And manifestations can be all kinds of manifestations, maybe just facial expressions.  The demons have taken charge of the faculties. Even the facial expressions are being controlled by the demons, not by the person anymore. And we call that a manifestation or the demon of fear. You might see that the person is looking very scared, suddenly looking so scared, but you can recognize, this is a manifestation of the spirit of fear or depression. Again, let me clarify, not all depression is demonic. So we must never use that conclusion across the board. But sometimes when there is a demonic influence and the person is possessed by spirit of depression, you might find that the person's expression is very sad and you're thinking what's happening. But it is the manifestation of that spirit of depression or the person is crying entirely or the person is being violent. Not just facial expression, even bodily faculties. I've heard pastors telling me when they went to cast out demons, there's a very young girl in the house. She has the strength to carry a cot. She just raised it with her hand, one hand and they're all looking at her thinking, how did she do that? Because it's not her anymore. The demons have taken charge of the faculties. So things like that, we call this as manifestation, the way it is demonstrated in the physical realm. Again, when you talk about possession, it can be part time or it can happen the whole time. So part time is a normally functioning human being. This person is going to work, they are taking care of the responsibilities at home. Things are going seemingly in a normal way. But from time to time, you find that the demons are acting up and you realize, why is this person suddenly so violent or sometimes we have prayer when there's prayer and worship going on. Suddenly you find some demons start manifesting because they cannot stand God's presence. So only at certain times the manifestation is visible to us. So we term that as part time. However, there are people who may be so taken over, so influenced by the demon spirits, that they are constantly in that state that the demons want that person to be like Legion. Remember, he sat far away, he was an outcast, he was not part of the city. So he was so destructive to the people that they had chained him and they had put him away. Because constantly causing chaos, constantly being violent and unproductive for the community. So there can be times when you find that some people are, the whole time they have become a vessel for demonic activity. I've also heard about some, in fact I heard about one girl, this also. I heard one of our churches only, one of our churches associated with APC. That pastor was telling one girl, she had become very sad because some relationship, something didn't work out for her. Unfortunately, this is a believer girl. Unfortunately what happened is that boys side, they did witchcraft and they did so many things because that person was not a believer. And because this girl was not strong in the Lord and she started giving into the work of these demon spirits, she became so weak and she was not functional. So basically she was at home the whole time and her family was taking care of her. She just couldn't do anything, she couldn't think, she was like basically the demon had taken over the whole time and her family was only taking care of her for days because she could do nothing. She could do nothing till the pastors went and they actually cast the demons out and also by revelation they came to know what had happened. Somebody had worked witchcraft and things like that against this girl and it was working on her and so they had to break those strongholds of the evil one and set her free. So you might find that people may, those who are possessed, they may manifest sometimes or they might be constantly in a state where they have become a vessel for the demons. Now I just want to draw your attention to the distinction. I said unbeliever is possessed. Believer, we use the term demonized and the understanding is that the influence is greater than oppression and that the demons are now able to use the faculties of the believer as well. It sounds impossible but sometimes we see that even believers manifest like unbelievers. And that's because of the level of influence that the individual has given the demons. So can believers be possessed? No. They are always possessed by the Holy Spirit but they can be demonized meaning their faculties can be taken over by demon spirits to the extent that they can manifest as if they were possessed. So we must not confuse. So if a believer is manifesting, we should not say that he never accepted Christ. No, no, no. It's possible to have manifestations similar to a possessed unbeliever. So I hope it is clear. So we are quite clear now. Influences your early stage oppression. Oppression, you know oppression I didn't explain to you. We'll again look at it later but see oppression mainly means overpowering. If you have seen a wrestling match, the stronger person subdues the weaker person. So like literally when you're watching it, the stronger person is on the weaker person. They've taken them down. So that is oppression. So it's a greater level of influence where the person or the human being has, you know, they've come under the weight of what the demons are doing. That is oppression. Influences, it's a lighter way to, you know, understand what demons are doing. So they're influencing you. It's a lot easier to deal with it at this level than to deal with it at this level. And similarly than this level and then of course, you know, this level. So when we understand the tactics of the evil one and we become strongest believers, you know, a lot of believers who walk with the Lord to study God's Word, take time and prayer, worship, you know, at this level itself. A lot of us we are able to deal with the works of the evil one. Okay. And that's the good thing. And so, you know, don't, don't get all worried. Oh, my goodness. This is the progression. Does it happen to everybody? No, it doesn't. It doesn't. Okay. And we'll talk about the victorious lifestyle and all that later on. But just for our understanding, if one is not strong in the Lord or if one opens the door for the enemy through a sinful lifestyle, you know, then that's, that's when the enemy is able to take them through this downward spiral. And the situation keeps getting, you know, more challenging. Now we've understood till possession empowerment. Okay. Empowerment is your last level. So this level is when an individual has become a channel for the demons. So by that, I mean the person is no longer living for their purpose. They're living for the purpose of the demon spirits and they can exercise or rather the demons can exercise influence and control beyond that human being on other human beings as well. Okay. And you might also find that this individual is manifesting signs, wonders, spiritual activity are the signs and wonders supernatural. Yes, but they are from the wrong source. Okay. And these are all like, you know, things to attract people towards the empowered individual. Okay. And we would see that people who engage with the occult, people who engage with, you know, there are all kinds of movements these days, new age, this and that. Sometimes people desire, they desire to not just be possessed, but they desire to be empowered. And that's where, you know, they can tell you your, we've talked about this, you know, nobody can really know no created being can ever tell the future. But that people, they try to predict your future that we call it divination through a spirit. Remember, we see that in the book of Acts, a girl with the spirit of divination and Paul cast out that spirit. She was empowered and, you know, a lot of people were influenced by her. So there can be people who are empowered. They are empowered. So they are wherever they go, communities and large masses of people, they can do signs, wonders. And basically they can have a control on the spiritual atmosphere over places and communities. And that is called empowerment. Okay. So I hope that you have a good grip on these concepts. We, if you, if, if so, we can, you know, go deeper and stop sharing the screen and we could pause for a moment in case you have any doubts or clarifications. Regarding this. Hi, so one quick question. So, and I think in the previous classes, we discussed one of the examples which you shared, like when you were in a hospital, you saw someone coming with and you kind of sense that it could be, you know, it could be demonic manifestations. Also, if we face such situations and do you think we can pray at that moment and that person can be healed or, you know, that my question is basically like this, like if, does that person need to know Jesus before being deliverance from any demons? Okay, John. Yeah. So the answer is yes, John, we can pray. Okay. The moment we sense that someone needs deliverance, we can pray. In the context that I shared, I don't think I could have gone and done anything because, you know, the hospital security and the doctors kind of surrounded the person. So I didn't go. But from where I was, I definitely prayed for him. I prayed and, you know, like if at all there is a chance to go cast out the demons. I was like, okay, you know, God just show me, give me the wisdom. But thankfully, I think it was a medication issue. And after some time that person had actually calmed down. So that's fine. Now the answer to your other question. No, John, it's like a person need not be a believer. Because when you see the example of Jesus, nobody was a believer at that time, right? But Jesus was casting out demons of unbelievers. Yeah. So same thing applies. We can cast out a demon from anybody. Right. Yeah. So if there is a public sitting, then let's say one example that you were traveling in a flight and suddenly if you see one person is manifesting and there's nothing much people can also do. I'm just giving one an example. Yes. So in that case, if you have that guidance on the Holy Spirit, we could do it, right? Yeah, yeah, of course. Of course, John. So that's what I'm saying. No, you begin to pray about it and you sense the leading of the spirit. If you sense, okay, I need to go there and I need to ask the person, you know, can I pray for you? Do it. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Sure. Sure. Thank you. So yeah, everyone, are you thinking or? Okay. Good. So, you know, some new insights possibly for many of us. So you can think some. Yeah. Yeah, please. Sorry. One more question. No problem. Yeah. So let's say a minister. Okay.  Yeah. But, you know, sometimes we sense in our spirits that he's not operating with the right mindset or let's say he's using some influences to minister. Yeah. So in that case, would he be empowered or he still demonized? Okay, John. Yeah. Good question. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying that the, the miraculous from that person's life is like all false signs and wonders kind of a thing? Yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So yeah, John, one could be empowered. We have to discern by the Holy spirit and another thing that we talk about to assess the prophetic word or miracles and always the fruit, the fruit of the ministry. You could look at the fruit of the ministry, meaning what is the outcome? Are people being saved? Are people having that, you know, that walk of worship unto the Lord with the fear of God? Is it drawing people closer to God? So when you look at the fruit of the ministry, that will also give you an idea of whether these signs, miracles and all, they are from God or not? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So if you feel like, you know, it's not, then don't, don't follow that person. Yeah. Yeah. My question was like, would he be empowered or? Possible. Possible. Yeah. Yeah. Very much. Yeah. In fact, I heard of some such testimonies from, you know, like the church where I serve, we've had a lot of African students in the past. So many of my, you know, good, good friends still now. And then some of them shared their experiences, apparently like one particular person from where he comes, people practice, you know, all these spiritual things and they try to gain influence over people and communities and all that. So this person was also saying that there are ministers of God who are saved from such backgrounds, but they still, you know, have that inclination to have that supernatural power which will thrill people and they don't, they don't focus on receiving that from God and they also go for things like, so it was very confusing for me to even understand what this person was saying, but you know, this individual was telling me that some such things are also happening there in that region. So I feel like the answer to such things is the word of God. The more we share about God's word, maybe people don't know. Once they are saved, they don't, they don't understand God's word, right? And in that ignorance, they carry on with the old practices which has been a part of their generations, but all these things don't please God because very clearly we see from scripture, God doesn't, doesn't like, you know, worship of other things and, you know, this kind of demonic empowerment and all that. So yeah, just something I thought I'll share. Yes, thank you. Right, yeah, thank you. So good. I think we will go forward. So now we have a good idea about the levels of demonization and also the tactics that Satan uses in order to gain influence over people. So what we'll do is we will start studying different tactics. So the first one would be temptation and temptation is quite common. All of us have been through temptation and we can see from scripture how the enemy uses this method and thereby we can be prepared to overcome it. So when we talk about temptation, the first thing for us to recognize is that this is in the area of our mind. It's in the area of our mind.  But actually he was in the wilderness. So how in the world was he on top of the temple? How in the world was he able to see the kingdoms of the world? It's all in his mind. Jesus was physically in the wilderness. So where was the temptation taking place in our minds? So that's the place where Satan wants to gain access. And that is the reason we say believers spend time in God's Word, meditate in God's Word, renew our minds because when we renew our minds, we're not giving space to the suggestions of the enemy or even if suggestions come, we are quick to recognize and discard them. So he likes to target the minds of the people. Now temptation is common to both unbelievers, believers, everyone because Satan is against man who is made in the image of God. Then when we look at this temptation that comes in our minds, we can also study the life of Jesus and see how he dealt with it. Another thing that Hebrews chapter 2 verses 14, 17 and 18, it tells us is that Jesus, he put on humanity. He's fully God and he is fully man, which means that as a man, he did not engage his godly privileges. No, he didn't. He was completely man and he battled every challenge of a man as a man. So he put on humanity, he was fully man and he had to strive against the attacks of the enemy in a human way. But scriptures also point out and tell us that he was tempted in every way yet without sin. And in fact, the term used for Jesus that is striving, he was striving against temptation, tempted in every way yet without sin. So a lot of us might look at the life of Jesus and say, Jesus, you don't understand. We are 21st century, there is a lot of challenges that we have that you didn't have in your time, this kind of temptation, that kind of temptation. But what scripture says, he was tempted in every way at all points of life, every stage of life, whatever you and I are going through is the appearance of that temptation may seem different in our age and time. But whether it is lust or pride or anything, jealousy, envy, he has been through it. But he was able to strive in such a way that he was 415. I'll just read it out for us. It's a good verse to always remember when talking about temptation. For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses but was in all points tempted as we are yet without sin. So that is the testimony of Jesus for us from Hebrews 4 and verse 15. He was tempted in every way and that is another reason and of course he overcame. But this is another reason that you and I can pray to Jesus. He will not condemn us. He will not say, how could you be tempted in this way? He has been through those situations and he is a high priest who will sympathize with our weaknesses because he understands the pressure of temptation. So temptation happens in our mind. Even Jesus was tempted. Jesus was tempted in every way yet he was someone who overcame temptation and that is why we can look to the Lord Jesus and he can help us. How does this temptation work? We are going to look at that in depth.  So 1 John chapter 2 verses 16 and 17. Can somebody please read that? 1 John chapter 2 verse 15. No, no, no. 16, 17 John. For everything in the world, the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does comes not from the Father but from the world. The world and its desires pass away but the man who does the will of God lives forever. Amen. Amen. So here again, Satan's temptations have been enlisted. These are temptations in our thoughts. They come as suggestions. They could be imaginations but it's in the mind. So here in this passage we see the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life. I think I'll go ahead and explain this part and then we will continue. So when you consider the lust of the eyes, you know, lust of the eyes is when in our minds we have a desire. We have and mind you temptations. How do I put this? So the word lust, right? It is an out of control desire. Some desires are natural. But Satan corrupts it and when we yield to an out of control desire, that's when it becomes lust. So last of the eyes is where the deception is that if you engage in that pleasure through your eyes that you will be satisfied. But it doesn't happen. Instead it leads to greater bondage. Sorry class I think something with my throat. We will go in for a break now if that's okay. Okay. So let's take a break. I'll come back. I'll pick up from there. We just stopped. Okay. Thank you everyone. See you soon.