Hi, we're here at the Portland Media Center for the Civic IQ series where we're meeting each of the candidates for mayor in the city of Portland, and I'm here today with City Councilor Andrew Zaro. Thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Right. So, Andrew, can you tell me a little bit about yourself, your background? What do we need to know about you? Yeah. So I, as you've said, I'm the city councilor right now. I'm the representative for District 4. I was elected in 2020. Very different time to decide to throw your hat into municipal government. My partner and I live in Batcow. We've been here for just about 10 years, originally from Vermont, and I've always worked in a combination of public sector work that really was a main street director. So I worked for Boston Main Streets. I've done a lot of work in social entrepreneurship, and then I worked at the Gross Smart Main, the state smart growth organization when I came to Maine. And worked all over the state in communities, helping them address what mattered most of them while they were dealing with growth. I then decided to become a small business owner myself. So for the last six years, I owned a coffee shop. First one was in Woodford's Corner and then moved downtown. And that was really when I lived my values of being very active in our community. Coffee shops are a great place to connect with people. You know, I am one of those people who just for whatever reason loves, I love municipal government. It's the closest you can get to constituents. It's how you can impact people's lives in a way that's meaningful. It's less cerebral, right? It's tangible. You can bump into us at the grocery store, and sometimes that's why I will go grocery shopping outside. But I just turned 35. I am the youngest person on the city council, and I really care a lot about it. I mean, we live in one of the greatest cities, I think, in the country, and I'm a big believer of civic engagement. So anything that I can do to get people excited about government is really important to me and how they can leave their fingerprints on policies that matter to them. I think I've noticed in my work in the community, but also on the council that I'm seeing a lot of people starting to unplug and be apathetic. And I want to fix that because our democracy requires people to be engaged. So that's a big part of my call to action and why I care about this work. So I'm really excited at the prospects of being Portland's fourth elected mayor because we need a new vision for the city. We need a new generation, and we need someone who's going to bring the council together and someone who's going to bring the community together to address the really significant challenges that we're facing as a city. I've done that before in the public sector and the private sector on the council, and I'm ready to do it in this role. So this is my invitation to the entire community to join in accomplishing that. Great. I'd like to explore a lot of those points you've just raised. But first, could you kind of take me back to your earliest impressions of Portland and what was it? When did you first come here? What kind of city was it? I was really little. I was like, baby. So yeah, my family would always come to Portland to Maine in the summer. I feel like people have three connections. If they're not born and raised in state in Maine, they have three connections to Maine. They went to school here, they went to summer camp here, or they married someone from here. And so my connection was we would come here every year. And Portland was a city that we would visit. We didn't stay in Portland, but it was the big city, right? It was the metropolis of Maine. So we would come here for errands, but it was a city we never really stayed in when I was little. We would go through. And then fast forward, I started coming to Portland as a young adult, and this was in the late 2000s. And I just thought it was the coolest city. You could do something here. You could have an impact. It was kind of gritty, but it cared.  You can feel that people are interconnected. And that was really attractive to me. So when all of my friends were moving to New York and San Francisco and Austin and Portland, Oregon, my partner and I moved to Portland, Maine. And we were 25. And everyone thought I was nuts. What are you doing? Why aren't you going to a city where you can focus on your career? You can do something. Well, to me, this city is where you could do something. You can have an impact. So Portland's part of its appeal to me was that it wasn't this super polished place that you had to go to check the box that you made it there. This is a community that I was attracted to because it was the intersection of small businesses and neighborhoods who really wanted to do the work themselves and show up and change their community the way they wanted. And it was a really inviting community. For me, I felt at home here because I could be myself here. So I know that it has changed so much in the decade that I've had. It's becoming less accessible. I couldn't move here now. My partner, I could not move to Portland, Maine right now. And that's, you know, hopefully we'll get deeper into housing affordability, but it's become a city that has become... We're a year round economy. We're the largest city in the state of Maine.  And that's having really negative impacts on our local economy and our local housing market. So I know it's becoming unattainable. The people who made it that crunchy, cool community where everyone was all hands on at the same time. Those people might live here, but they don't work here anymore because they can't. They can't afford to. So they're being pushed out to Westbrook, Bitterford, even more, you know, further out places that are more rural. And we're starting to see the impacts of it. I mean, I know the pandemic impacted everyone. But, you know, Monday, Tuesday nights used to be when you would go downtown to see live music as a local and you would get to see people. So businesses aren't open anymore because workers can't live here. And the cost of doing business here is too much. So we're starting to see, and I know we are not the only city, lots of others in the country are dealing with this, but we're starting to see the very fabric of our community be pulled. And that tension is really showing up in in Portlanders. People need some people want something to be done. So I still think that the core values of our city are the same. We care deeply. We're compassionate. We're excited. We want to get involved. I think we're a city of helpers. When something needs to be done, we show up. But now it's our turn as the electeds to help the people of Portland live, work, and play here. So that's the most noticeable thing I've seen in the last. If you were to project forward 10 years, you know, presumably you got elected, that you've had two terms, which would be a first. What would be a first? What's the city going to be like in 2033? So under my plan, one of the most ambitious goals that I have that is attainable is we need to build 10 to 12,000 units of affordable housing in the next decade, right? And that's something that has not happened in the last 15 years. We've seen since around the Great Recession in 2008, we've seen a significant reduction in that. And we're feeling the pinch now. So that's one of the most significant changes that I plan to see, you know, 10 years from now. The comprehensive plan in 2017 argued that about 2,500 housing units in the next 10 years would do the trick. Well, that was incorrect. We were clearly seeing that live out in real time. So we need to we need to be bold with our housing policies and the way I think to get to those 10,000 to 12,000 units of affordable housing in the next 10 years. And I say affordable because right now it's so inflated. I'm also including missing middle market rate housing is our land use, right? And we're seeing other cities tackle this. Minneapolis just did a full rezone of their city to make it streamlined. I believe there is not a we should do everything in our power to make sure we can build housing in every part of the city. There's the obvious exceptions like our parks. We love our parks and certainly wouldn't make that argument, but there are huge swaths of our city where you cannot build housing. And then we talk about we have a housing crisis and then we talk about how our taxes are going up, right? So these are pretty common sense things that we can do today. And to your question, a decade from now, we're going to see really positive results that are going to start to fix decades and decades of bad housing policies. I think I've been really open about talking about rezoning right now. A great example is our industrial zones, right? We have light and moderate industrial can't have housing there. A good example is where all the breweries are in East Bayside, right? So you have housing on one side of the street and then huge chunks of land. You cannot build housing. Big sections of Riverside and Warren Ave, right? Those are on major corridors where public transit can access. Why are we choosing the status quo when we have we have developers who are ready to work with us, right? We have other issues with zoning and permitting that I hope we can get into, but that that is the key to unlocking the potential of this city. And we have lots of folks who want to work in Portland. We have lots of folks who want to build in Portland, but we are pushing them to Westbrook, to Augusta, to other cities because we have a reputation that we need to fix. And it's that we're not easy to work with. And we also have prohibitive land use policies. So for me, that's day one. We're going to prioritize that. Lots of other things I would like to do, but that is what I plan on doing if we don't do that. So if I if I don't get elected, if we do stick with the status quo, we are on a trajectory that is going to continue to enable people scooping up housing here that is not going to be for long term use. We are going to continue. We are on the fast track to a San Francisco at a much smaller size, a city that is for elite and a greater metropolitan area where people who work in city in the city have to live. And so we're going to encourage automobile use, we're going to encourage sprawl, bad environmental impacts, climate impacts. I mean, that is the trajectory we're on. So that's why we need forward thinking policies and we need a brand new perspective for the Portland of tomorrow. Because while I love the nostalgia about Portland past, those days are behind us and it's time to get to work. So, as you know, there's been a lot of controversy about the the role of the mayor. We didn't have a mayor for almost 100 years or like directly elected mayor and and there was we just went through a charter review project process that was ultimately unsuccessful to give the mayor more power. I think there's still a lot of confusion in the public about what the mayor does what the mayor's role is how the mayor influences events. And I wonder what your perspective on this is what what is the job of the mayor and and how does the mayor accomplish that. So in our form of government, I believe it's really important to have whoever's in the role of mayor. Their number one task is to make sure they are bringing people together to accomplish their policies right there their vision their initiatives and personality plays a huge role in that. So I think one you need vision you need a roadmap of this is where I as mayor want us to be in five years and 10 years and then you have to pull your council on board and you have to pull city staff on board. So I understand there are folks who say we have a really weak mayor right now they're one of nine there's nothing they can do. And I push back on that because the mayor sets the agenda for the council with the city manager. But that means the mayor has the right and the authority to say that they are going to prioritize housing on every agenda they're going to prioritize the climate on every agenda they're going to prioritize affordability. And every agenda and working closely with the manager to accomplish that I mean at the end of the day five counselors can direct the manager to do what they wish right within the context of our charter and policies. I think we need to we need someone who's going to bring people together, who is singular in that vision of accomplishing work right, we cannot be comfortable with inertia, because Portlanders are fed up with that, and I joined them in that. So I think the mayor in its current form actually has a, a lot of potential to get these ambitious agenda items accomplished, but it involves rolling up their sleeves, working really closely with the city manager, whose pervious city staff, the community and and the council to get that done so. And that happens to be what I do. So I'm comfortable in saying that I think I would actually be a pretty impactful mayor because I've done it as a district counselor already got a lot done in three years.  So, but you know I've been able to do that before with staff with the manager with the council and the mayor but this is why we need a mayor with a bold vision, who is not here to alienate people. Their, their job is to leave the place better than they found it. I don't know if I would have run if the strong mayor one, because it would have become a it just would have been such a different structure that I think whoever would have become the next mayor would have had four years of chaos. They would they just it would have been so new it would have been there would have been so many moving parts. And we're a city of 68,000 people. We might be the biggest city in the state we are the biggest city in the state, but we're we're pretty small, which means we can get things done by working closely together. You know, a lot of what you describe is behind the scenes work, working with counselors working with the manager. But there's also a public role to the mayor's office that people have expectations that they that they will hear from the mayor and they haven't always been met and I wonder how you would approach that part of the job. Yeah. So I try my very best to be the most accessible counselor. It's been a big reason one of the reasons why I ran is because I didn't feel heard. It was impossible to hear from my counsel as a business owner as a constituent. So that's always been really important to me because no one likes to be ignored. Even if you disagree with the person you should respond to them. And I think the mayor does have that expectation of being accessible. I think the mayor's job is one of the hardest jobs in this country. Any mayor of any city or town that is the hardest job you wake up every day and you look around you like what's on fire today. What are we dealing with today. And it's hard to be accessible at all times. I think that's when you have a really good relationship with your counselors whose job as district counselors to be boots on the ground. But the mayor's also meant to call people into City Hall. That's the people's house. One thing I would love to do is change our rules right now, because you're right behind the scenes is where everything tends to happen. And that's where I think I've been most impactful. Working behind the scenes and then before you know what the policy is getting voted on. But I would love to restructure the way we do our work to resemble Augusta a little bit more, which we can do. And that's instead of you know right now the policy is we have an agenda setting meeting as one of our first meetings of the year. We all have post-its that we put on issues and you know the most post-its get the most issues. It's the past two years have been homelessness, housing and climate and sustainability. So and then you know the chairs of the committees go and they do their thing and they'll send stuff to the full council as they wish. What I would love to do, and this would be an amazing way not only to get the mayor to work closely with the community and have them be heard, but it would be a really effective way to prevent citizen referendum from showing up every year is have that agenda setting. Session in the beginning of the year be the opportunity for the community to work with a counselor on whatever the issue is, say it's, I've been talking about vacancy rate so say someone's counselors are I'd love to work with you on vacancy rates and then I say I will sponsor that. And at the meeting of the first agenda setting meeting I, I sponsor that I give my reason why we should work on it and I refer it to the Housing and Economic Development Committee. The council then would vote to five votes send it to the committee. It gets worked on like on in the committee, and then if the committee wants they send it back to the council and the council votes it up or down. That would be extremely impactful, because the mayor and the council are are calling the constituency into city hall and saying what do you want. What matters to you. And then they're working. There's lots of opportunities for public engagement. There's lots of opportunities for the council and staff to do their work. And if they want to support it and send it along they do. And if they don't, then that's that's also the work but it diffuses this tension between staff council and the community of well you're not hearing me you're not it's not accessible. So I truly believe city hall is the people's house. I did that in my committee that I chair sustainability and transportation this year, and it worked. We got a lot of people showed up it was like two hours of public comment. And we did adopt some of those items that we worked on this session so I would love to see that be our new process because people need to be heard by their electives. So last question about the mayor. We've had three very different styles of administration. Anything that you look at from the past experience that you'd like to emulate is there anything that you want to avoid. That usually means somebody's not going to answer it when they say when they tell me it's. I usually answer my question. So I think I think there's something that I think we've learned from each mayor that you know is commendable anyone who raises their hand for public office and does this work. You know I respect them, but you know the first mayor was really good at connecting with Augusta really focused on that. The second mayor had big ideas and and wasn't afraid to swing big. The third mayor was so good at bringing people to a place where they felt like they could talk to her they felt like they, they could rely on her. You know being available. So those are all commendable traits that I think that those are I mean those are good for any public figure to have you know the from vision to the you know the day to day. I want but they also they also had very different times they were serving under I mean specifically our current mayor was sworn in and then just had the unthinkable happen. Now we're at a time where I think there is a sense of urgency that at least the first couple of mayors didn't have to deal with right. And that's just been the last you know the last four years I think I've really done a done a number on you know every city in town in this country but I want to be a mayor that is able to pull on the strengths of previous, but also now it's time to really get to work. I want to push for policies that are going to better our constituents, and I'm going to do it in a way where I'm bringing a creative coalition along with me. And I think that is what I would like to bring as the fourth mayor as my strength. The mayor sits in the mayor seat next has massive challenges that they need to tackle head on we cannot kick the can down the road anymore. We are possibly beyond breaking point for a lot of our issues. So that's why we need someone who understands where we came from to know where we're going and is not afraid to try. Yeah, I mean, it's, I know the previous mayors are all very big. They've left big imprints on our community in really different ways. And so I mean I appreciate everything they've done I've learned a lot from them. But it's also, again, worse, we're a relatively small city so I know I'm going to bump into them all the time. And I look forward to calling on them for their insights, you know, when the time comes. All right, so you've listed off a number of the big challenges the city faces but let's maybe start there. What if you're ranking them? What are the biggest challenges for city government for our community? Yeah, so the top two and they are very close to each other is our homelessness crisis and housing portability. Those are very interconnected. One, one does impact the other. And I've been talking to a lot of Portlanders going to a lot of doors. Those two issues people talk about the most. What we're going to do to support our unhoused neighbors, how that's impacting our community. And I can't afford to live here anymore. What are you going to do about my taxes? You know, that and so those are those are not mutually exclusive. I think close after those are asylum seekers are, you know, I think this last summer we really saw people for the first time pay attention to our climate crisis in a way they had not. We're seeing the impacts and our island communities in our waterfront. So I think people are really starting to wonder how the municipal government can in that engage in climate work. So those are, I mean, there's lots of others. But if I were to give you the top four, those those are what I believe are the issues that people will be voting on this November. Okay, let's start with affordability. What can the city do to make housing more affordable? Yeah, there's a lot we can do. The first one I already talked about is through recode and rezoning our city, right? We want housing, we need to incentivize building housing. It's not rocket science. But it is hard to move the or it has been hard to move the needle on doing that. So we're going through a recode right now. You know, I don't believe that'll be something that this council will be voting on just based on the timing of it. But we need to the current yeah, and that's been worked on for as long as I've been on the council and I still couldn't tell you entirely kind of what that process looks like and what to expect from it. But I do know and I know I had already said this, but that that is that is step one in tackling our housing affordability issue. We need to do more to incentivize housing. We have, you know, TIF programs tax increment financing programs those are great for affordable housing. But I think we need to be looking at sections of our city where housing makes the most sense right so I talked to Eddie's Bayside. That's a dense walkable neighborhood it's on public transit. We should be building there we should be building all along forest staff right think about it's one of the most heavily trafficked roads in the city. There's not a lot of housing along forest of is there right so we should have benefit districts, we should create every opportunity for you know recode phase one one of the big takeaways was ad use accessory dwelling units. The state loves ad use the city says they love ad use but we make it really hard to build an ad you right through setbacks of your property. So we need to we need to absolutely reimagine our permitting and inspections at the city, so that we can make it easier for people to build, and I'm not trying to be overly critical but one of the most common pieces of feedback I get is that our city is really hard to work with. And I'm quoting someone it's almost as if their job is to get to know that is powerful feedback and not again not trying to be overly critical but we have to acknowledge where we are, so that we can fix the problem. And so, again, everyone wants to work in Portland, it's just, we have a cultural issue to work on. And I think once we start to really take it seriously, we have lots of people who want to build in Portland. The city is not a developer, right. Once upon a time we did have more of a role by having you know municipal backed mortgages love to consider bringing that back, giving people the opportunity to pursue home ownership if they if that's for them. But what we are seeing is you know we're seeing referenda around certain issues because we're not doing enough right so we are seeing, you know rent control is talked about very regularly. And I think the reason why it's being talked about is it's it's a very tangible way to enact in the current housing market. Right. But the way it's the most effective is if it would be coupled with significant housing stock, and that is where we're failing as a city. And I'll own that right only been on the council for three years but I will own that we are not doing enough to prioritize and incentivize more housing stock so. I'm sure you've heard the concerns people say you know how can we be building luxury condominiums hotel rooms when there's a lack of affordable housing. Can the city government play a role in the types of things that are developed. Yes and no. I think this is where you get creative. So, ultimately, if you own your if you own a lot and you want to build a hotel on it. That's yours, you can you can do that right. If you want city subsidy that's where we get to be involved and say okay hold on. And we've done that before. Exactly. But for the most part you own that property you want to build luxury housing on it. That's on you you might you'll go through the planning board but for the most part you're not coming to the council unless it's a specific issue. What we can do though is and I've had a I've heard from a bunch of people how about you know for every unit every hotel room that's built we take a short term rental off the market right. I think we need to always come back to the fact that we're in a housing crisis. So everything should be discussed everything should be on the table for for a conversation doesn't mean it's going to be the idea we move forward with but I think that is my north star. I think that's everyone's north star housing affordability. We don't have enough housing. I mean the city's population right now as I said with 68,000. That's not even our highest it wasn't before the 1960s in the mid 20th century we were almost 80,000. And Franklin arterial ripped an entire neighborhood apart and other other policies from urban renewal did a lot of damage to our city so we're not even at the the population peak that we've been at. That's important to remember because because when people think of when Portland you know used to be and things were maybe as hard there's lots of reasons why but we did this to ourself with previous generations implementing really harmful policies so those are opportunities for us to revisit and I brought that through my committee was in the council on in workshop on Monday. That's a transformational project restoring Franklin Street right potentially thousand plus units of housing. So, great example of thinking big and using there's a lot of federal funding for it right Portlanders aren't going to have to pay for that in their taxes. So I think it's just really important for us to say, this is a yes and situation for us to really tackle our housing and again I'll reiterate it's going to take time, because it took a long time to get us here. We're talking 1520 years, so it's going to take us 510 15 years to get out of this, but the longer we wait the worse it's going to get. So I think that the city needs to be the number one partner back to your question about you know what can the city do the city needs to do everything in our toolbox to be the best partner we can be to call people and to say, How do you want to what what works and what doesn't. How can we get you to build with us that maybe the city needs to revisit our, our staff, like our departments right, we maybe we need to re engage more of a holistic approach to real community. Maybe we need to pull people in from the creative economy in in City Hall, so that there is someone who's working directly with domain experience on these issues but what's happening now is is falling short and I think I hope every candidate recognizes that. One of the priorities of Portland is the the traditional worker housing neighborhoods that were walkable and access by public transit and and close to employment opportunities have become wealthy neighborhoods because they're so desirable. They don't live in a place where they can don't have to get in a car and drive everywhere. And the demand for those housing units has priced out the people who the the kinds of populations that used to live there and then that would still like to have that kind of lifestyle. And when you talk about density in other parts of the city, I'm talking off the peninsula. You run into a lot of opposition from neighbors and and maybe some of the the the recalcitrance around city staff and the slow, the slow walking is in response to what the people have told them they want, which is they want more density. So looking forward, I appreciate you're talking about growth, but but looking forward, how would you see how the city will grow where the density will happen? You know, is it a possible to to meet the the the market for people who want to have a an urban lifestyle in a city that has a tradition of almost suburban development. I mean, great question. This is the work I did when I was with the smart growth organization working in communities all over Maine. How do we grow while preserving what we love about this place? Right. And I'm I'm an off peninsula counselor living back home, and we have predominantly single family homes. My streets are great example, lots of single family homes on one section of the street, and then built right into it. Lots of multis, four units, five units, 10 units, right? It makes sense for our community. But that when that community, you know, got going, it was mostly just single family, you know, 30s, 40s and 50s capes, right? And with large lots big, you know, I think a lot of people walking around can't tell the difference of an R3 versus an R5, except maybe the lawn is a little bit smaller. But, you know, you're right, people do choose to live in certain neighborhoods because they want that character of the neighborhood. I am in no way shape or form saying that I want to build, you know, a tower in an off peninsula district. That would make no sense. Not only politically, but in terms of the land use that that just doesn't make sense. I don't that I don't know anyone who's advocating for that. But what I do know is that we have lots of vacant parking lots in downtown Portland. Lots of them are municipally owned parking garages that are empty a lot.  Oh, we talk about affordability. And then we don't do anything in the places that are the lowest hanging fruit to actually, you know, move the needle on it. So, I think we have to start where where it makes the most sense. I would be pretty surprised if there was pushback from the community saying, you know, forest apps already a highway. Why aren't we having dense housing all along and I think most people can get on board with that it's on public transit right we want to incentivize those corridors. Same for Warren and Riverside. I think that those are we have we have industrial some industrial businesses in a, in a fairly vacant technology park like I don't. I don't think that those areas are going to really impact developing those areas are not going to impact neighborhoods negatively for the most part. I think that we need to be intentional with our land use. People love their communities for very nuanced reasons I mean one joy hill and the and the Western prom have a lot of similarities but also they have a lot of differences and is the nuance of those communities that people want to live there right and the same could be set up during center back over wherever. So, I think we need to allow people to expand within their footprint a little bit, but keep it reasonable right that being said I don't think if there's a you know if there's a four unit five unit multi in during center. I don't think that's out of character. I think that adds value, but I also understand changes hard. It could be scary. It's also inevitable. So we're going to change. We need to control the path forward. We need to own what our roadmap is going to be. And this hodgepodge, no vision is going to result in in some bad policies and that's again why I keep coming back to we need a vision for our zoning we need a vision in our with our mayor. We need someone who understands and is talking about where we're going and inviting people in to be a part of that when it comes to housing isn't that what the recode project is supposed to provide. Supposed to I've been on the council for three years we've had to report outs to workshops right now the text is out there but there's no map. That's one of the departments the council has no oversight into. I've asked every year for the mayor to appoint an ad hoc committee of recode every year and every year I'm told no. And that's a problem for me. And that's a problem for Portlanders people want to know what staffs working on. I don't think anything bad is going on but I think there's a lot of time money and resources that's going into that work for what should be a transformational policy initiative. And the council does you know it does not have say that's where the mayor's role is very impactful mayor points committees, the mayor, the mayor has a say in that. And so that that is where I would be different because your councillor should be able to answer the question if you go up to them and say hey where are we at with recode. You shouldn't have to be able to like get information a little over here and a little over there to put pieces together for me that's not good governance. And so that needs to change. Wait so where is the breakdown happening is it between staff and the electeds or is it. I mean, I think maybe a combination of both. I think again back to your earlier question I think that's where the mayor plays a really intricate role of bringing the council and staff together with the manager as as you know the the most powerful position on city staff. So I think that's where the unified vision the coalition building gets at that because we're we are bringing people together for addressing this together. You know I think there's an expectation after at least a decade of I'll just be honest when I was elected there was a policy city staff do not talk to councillors do not talk to you talk to those councillors. You're in trouble. That is not healthy. And we're slowly working through it we're getting there. This isn't a secret by the way like this is this is just people know it and I think people are finally walking through it and saying well that was dysfunctional. That didn't help. So we were getting their cultural organizational change takes time but I can't tell you how many times I've asked for us to have you know obviously state law prohibits three councillors from convening and I understand that but I can't tell you how many times I've asked for us to have a close relationship with senior leadership at City Hall because that's how we get stuff done. One of the best parts of having a coffee shop was people just come in and we would catch up. We would catch up with city staff and I and it was great. And then you know I do have a really good relationship with most city staff but I think structurally the institution as it currently exists is councils over here. Mayor manager and then they sort of decide what we're working on together and what we're not. And I'm don't get me wrong. It can be really challenging. We are electives are notorious for having some big personalities and being tough to work with. I'll own my part but you know so I think again that's the reason why we're about we're talking about this this massive policy recommendation that's coming out soon and we can't really speak to it in depth. Is a symptom of an internal structure that is not meant to be super transparent accessible and I will change that especially on issues like this one which are again once in a generation. I'd like to shift to a related issue which is the encampments the tents. I have never seen such visible signs of homelessness. It appears to be getting worse. We put a lot of effort into as a city into dealing with homelessness and whatever it is we've done is not working. And I wonder if I could just get you to explain what we can do going forward starting right now to deal with this very sensitive complex complex issue. And obviously great need. This is going to be one of the biggest issues Portlanders are thinking about when they when they cast their vote in November. And this is not just a Portland issue we are seeing this in cities and towns everywhere. Portland does have a huge heart and I met what I said before we are a city of helpers. And we we I feel like right now in the last summer I agree with you 100% I've never seen it like this before in Portland. There's a couple of variables as to why and I won't go too deeply into it but combination of we are the service center Portland committed 40 years ago to have a municipal shelter. Other you see Lewiston City Council voted 5 to a couple months ago not to open a shelter even though they had state funding. Cape Elizabeth last year chose not to build hundreds of units of affordable housing right so you have our neighbors who are saying no this is Portland's problem. And then also have something to say about Portland when we have campments popping up. But Portland punches above its weight we always have we're at three times our capacity city staff works endlessly to achieve this. Our homeless services shelter was that capacity day one when it opened in March. Over 60% of the people at the shelter are asylum seekers who have very different needs from our on house neighbors. What we're seeing right now is two underserved populations with very different needs at odds with each other and the community is trying to make sense of it. We are doing we are making some some moves now to mitigate that we're opening a new shelter for asylum seekers on Riverside for 180 beds to open capacity at the shelter so that people aren't on the streets right because right now we just don't have beds. And this is this is where my plans come in. We know data shows us that emergency housing on its own is not it's just not going to do it. Transitional housing coupled with housing first policies is how we are going to meet the moment. And so there this has been done in other cities right Denver San Antonio, and we've even been talking about it with GP cog the Greater Portland Council of Governments. I'm proposing that we prioritize 100 units of micro efficient tiny homes with wraparound services as the solution to the emergency shelter barrier right because people can't go to the emergency shelter for lots of reasons. If you're with your partner, you'd have to be broken up. That's probably not going to be okay for a lot of people. You might be using still you might be you might have a dog. You might not have a place to store your belongings right there's lots of reasons that an emergency shelter is not your answer so transitional housing with wraparound services is the solution for a lot of this there is state funding I believe there's about $13 million that's been allocated from Augusta for housing first policies and something like another $70 million for communities who are addressing their affordable housing crisis. So there's three lanes of this there's emergency housing, transitional housing and permanent right now we're coming at it with just one we've talked about what we need to do in the next 10 years for the permanent for everyone. But in terms of right now the inflammation we are seeing encampments because people are not getting access. So that's, that's, that's the key. That's how we're going to do it. And it's, you know, they're quoted to be about $44,000 per unit. We're gonna do 100 of them to shy of $5 million. We have $9 million in the housing trust fund at the municipal level but then again we have that 13 million and that 70 million at the state and the state wants. The state wants to see the municipality take the lead right and Portland already is that's kind of what we do we take the lead but what I also want to do is call in the region. This is not Portland only right. I've been walking around a lot of the encampments talking to people trying to help out where I can listening to them. A lot of people are here from Lewiston. They don't want to be in Portland they want to be at home. Right. There's someone I was talking to the other day who's 40 years old and and hurt themselves two years ago and got addicted to to pills. And their their life was was stable. And it was just like that and now they are in an encampment and they don't want to be there. They want to be at home they want to they want to be in their community but their community is not actively doing this right. Portland can't make another city or town do anything. But we can be a good partner and we can reach out and say how are we going to work together to help both of our constituents because what's happening right now is not working. So this really is a regional approach. We need to work closer with Augusta and take them at their word when they say they want to help. Portland cannot point fingers that's not that is not how we are going to call people in to help us. We can't say you're not doing enough. We need to say OK this you're going to help with money you're going to help with with great that's we'll take it we'll work with you on that and we'll take it from there and we'll partner with organizations that are here in this work with us. But again there are there are solutions to these issues doing nothing is why we are seeing this significant increase in encampments. And we are doing a lot with within the context of what our current policies dictate. I certainly want to be clear about that. We are doing a lot. We're doing more than anyone else as a city. But it's it's not meeting the moment because it's it's too focused on one part of the housing You know you talk about the three parts and certainly intertwine with this problem is untreated mental illness and and substance use and I know you don't want to point fingers at Augusta but those are really state responsibilities and clearly it's not working to the extent of what is going on is not it's not making the problem less. And I wonder if there are things that can be done on the municipal level regarding treatment. A number of cities have in Canada there are safe injection sites in several cities and there are other kinds of local level projects that are done to deal with the with the with the fallout from inaction at higher levels and I'm wondering if you can see Portland playing a more active role. Well I'm certainly not letting Augusta off the hook with being a part of that with with you because you're totally right there are three crisis happening at the same time housing substance abuse and mental health and that's why my proposal involves wrap around services right if someone is being whether they're moved from emergency housing to transition by the by who I mean that would be the combination of the state and the city and service providers right this is also where this is a public public and a public private partnership because again Portland's not doing it on their own and there are organizations who we work with pretty closely now the ECRT and at the state level.  I I know enough about safe injection sites to have a working knowledge of it I believe last year the Council's Health and Human Services and Public Safety had a presentation or they were entertaining a presentation. I don't believe that they were able to have that conversation but right now what we're seeing is very active public substance abuse happening in parks and streets like it's just everywhere right. We are in a precarious situation because of the Attorney General's protocol of what we can and cannot do in terms of response from the Portland police. So I actually met with the new police chief a couple weeks ago. Yeah, obviously it was only a couple weeks in. Welcome to Portland. What are you going to do about all this. And so I'm actively working with the manager the police chief to, I believe we can expect a report out in the near future on an analysis I've also been discussing with the district attorney that interpretation because we are in a very precarious situation. But for me, I'll just speak personally what I think. If I'm seeing someone actively using in public if I'm seeing someone have, you know, struggling with mental health publicly, if I'm seeing someone elevated in themselves or others in the community, that's not okay. That is just not okay. And similarly, I'll just be honest, being okay with people living intense is not okay with me, because that means we have we have not only have failed at prioritizing housing first, but we're okay with saying, maybe we aren't going to fix this. So let's just settle with what we've got. And I'm just speaking as a person who lives in Portland and my personal beliefs of what I think we should be doing. So the tensor here now, building new housing first projects is a multi year pro project. Correct. I mean, yes, with the exception of the proposal from GP Cog is is a pretty quick turnaround. Land use is the biggest barrier there. It all comes back to land use. But so that that potentially could be something that happens within a year, like very quick. So you're right, though, again, this is over a decade of it being ignored at the state and federal level, this is allowing major corporations to get people hooked on on addictive medicine, not not not medicine addictive drugs that are ruining their lives. And this is a failure of our society from actually caring for people. And so for me, it's really important that we approach all of this with care in mind and I think being okay with people just existing in a tent with no order services other than getting very basic needs met. We're bringing them food, we're bringing them water. We're trying to figure out how to get infrastructure for restrooms and showers. That is just that's a failure for me. Right. I want someone to have a home. I want someone to be able to get a place where they can get mail sent to them where they can get a job where they can take advantage of, you know, our awesome education system with adult public adult education. You know, I want, I want to give people a shot. And just because they're in this part of their life where for whatever reason the floor fell out from under them. I'm just not okay with them and this I will say this is near and dear to my family. I know there are a lot about making sure people are housed and cared for and get access to the services that they need. I know it's extremely difficult, but I think that, again, I have to keep coming back to the fact that there's a lot we can do, but it's going to bring all of us coming together and implementing some big ideas. And that's why I think this pilot is the only option we have. I mean, we can, we can just break up encampments left and right, you know what that's going to do, it's going to move people elsewhere. They're just going to go elsewhere and they're in within the city and it's going to cause trauma in the meantime. You see, you see an increase of calls to the police department who already have capacity issues. You see other neighbors in other parts of the city say, wait, what the heck's going on? Not in my neighborhood. It's just perpetuating a cycle where nothing is changing. So we have, we have to change the issue. We have to get to the root of the issue, not all of the symptoms and tents are a symptom. Let's move to a another related issue which you've already brought up. It's the asylum seekers whose needs are very different. What is the city's responsibility here and what are the opportunities? What are you concerned about when it comes to housing these families? This one is concerning for a couple reasons because we, and this is a misconception from the public, which I don't blame anyone. It's not like we get an email every morning that says, hello, Portland main, you are receiving X number of people in your community today. XO federal government. It's not, we have no idea, right? People show up and then we have to respond accordingly. So about a year and a half ago, I don't know, a year and three months, we did change our GA policy, our administration of our GA policy, because we, by state law, have to adhere to it. Of course, we're going to, but we ran out of housing. So now our policy is here's your voucher, which, you know, that's not great, right? We're just, that's also why you're seeing such a significant number of asylum seekers at the shelter, because it's first come first serve, right? Very low barrier. So part of exacerbating the issue. What I want to do is look at this as an opportunity. We have people who are coming here. Maine is the oldest state. It is the whitest state. And we have a declining population. So let's look at this as an opportunity. We have people who are coming here and they want to be a part of the community and they want to work. Huge issue though is the federal government is not moving at all on work regulation, right? People can't work for at least six months, but it's usually more like 12 to 18 months. So you have people who are coming here, who want to work, who want to be a part of the community and the economy, and they cannot. And I will give credit for credits due to Congresswoman Pingree and Senator King because they are doing a really good job of advocating for this. But what does that mean for the municipality? How does the city of Portland tackle this when this is clearly a federal issue? Very much above our pay grade. And Augusta, I feel like, feels the same way. It's not a state issue. It's a federal issue. But at the end of the day, we are where people are coming. So we're trying our best to sort of mitigate the issues that I was describing between our underserved populations, right? But small city. So I've heard all sorts of interesting thoughts on what we can do by issuing municipal only work permits and, you know, taking a chance and see if that's going to, you know, incentivize the federal government to make, you know, movement on this. I think that's risky. But I do appreciate people thinking of thinking outside the box. You know, for us, it's per capita we're dealing with this pretty significantly because of our size, right? But I want to recognize, and I'll continue to say that this is, we have to look at this as an opportunity. Because if we start to go down the path of, you know, why are they coming here? Or, you know, what about Portlanders? That gets dicey real fast. And I know that we are better than that. We have to be, right? So I think right now we're doing our absolute best to make sure people have housing and access to, you know, through GA and resources. But this is where we're working closely with our state delegation in Portland and the governor's office to make sure that we are in constant communication with each other and making sure that Portland is not the only destination for people who are coming to Maine, because there are lots of other cities and towns who, I will say, are starting to work better with us, right? Looking at the hotel and Freeport, right? It's tricky because then you all of a sudden have, you know, you have language barriers. You have more access to resources that are challenging. But this is another example of- No one wants to live in a hotel. You can't cook. They can't walk anywhere. Exactly. Exactly. Those are all like the expo. That was short term hotels. This is short term, but because we aren't looking at this from a big picture, then that's why we're not getting at it. And again, not to always come back to this with your last two issues. Transitional housing meets the needs for both of these populations in different ways, and it is affordable and it is paid for. And I'm all ears. If someone has an idea that is great, we should go with it. Let's go with it. But right now all signs are pointing to this is the next step. The state's excited about it. I think the region can really engage with it. And it feeds two birds with one seed, right? It's taking both of our communities who have different needs and allowing them access to better quality of life. And just to keep on that system's thinking, permanent housing is the goal for everyone. Permanent housing is the goal for asylum seekers. It's the goal for our unhoused neighbors. Our goal is to not always live in- if we're always looking at the emergency shelter or the emergency, then it feels like we're constantly in an emergency. And I think it's because we are right now. But this is when vision is everything. It's time we have. Because we can't just say no. We're not going to do anything about it. Or you can't come here. That's not on the table. And that's hard for some people to hear. But it's the reality and we have to be very honest about that. So this is why big solutions are the only way through this. Glad that you mentioned growth because a lot of residents of Portland, long-time residents of Portland have the impression that the city has been growing at an alarming rate. And it hasn't. The population has been just about level the last two censuses. And that's the area the region has grown. People are coming here every day from across the economic spectrum from asylum seekers to people, remote workers with very high incomes, empty nesters, all competing for the same urban housing stock. And I wonder if I could get you again to be specific about what your growth strategy is and how big do you think Portland could get without losing the character that's attracting all these people. So I'm a big proponent of smart growth. I do not believe in growth for the sake of growth. That's not because that's when you're going to end up with completely unattainable housing costs. You're going to end up with lots of commercial vacant commercial office space. So I think we need to be intentional about our growth. And I'm glad we're talking about the that we are not at our highest population. The perception that Portland is getting big, I think is because we make every list in that that's out there, right? We have the best food, we have the best waterfront. But we also have folks who are scooping up second, third properties, right? So it's like, well, the numbers should tell us that we have enough. But we don't because we're not being equitable on the distribution or the access of our housing units on top of the fact that we do have a deficit of housing stock. That's, I hope I've been clear on that. But I think, you know, I think a lot about my neighbors in backhofe, right? A lot of people who have lived there, they raised their kids that they've lived there since the 60s and 70s, right? And now they want to stay there, but they're getting priced out. I do a lot of work with the aging in place initiative. I try to be helpful with making sure people, you know, can get their, their sidewalks shoveled or get to the grocery store and just sponsored with one of my colleagues funding another full time position for the Office of Elder Affairs. But we have a lot of people who live in the city and have for a while. And they're, they're feeling the pinch. And the assumption is, well, we're growing so quickly that that's why I'm getting pushed out. And that's just not true. There's other variables that are contributing to it. We're not growing and that's why you're getting pushed out. Exactly. But then you have the conversation that we were talking about a moment ago. Well, what is that? If you want to build more, what does that mean for me? And I think we need to just be very clear that it doesn't mean it's not bad. It's good. This is a net win for everyone. Your property taxes will go down. The mill rate will go down. You'll have more, like you'll have a more vibrant community. You'll have neighbors. Like I think the reluctance for change and fear are such powerful motivators for people. We've seen it in all sorts of elections from candidates to, to referenda to ballot items. Like people are afraid. And I think that's why it's our job as candidates or as electeds to meet with people and say, this is, this is what we're looking at doing. What do you think? Explain everything. It's our job to make sure people are fully aware of the reality and then what, what we think we should do about it. And also, I mean, I hope I've shown in my time on the council that I'm always up to learn something new and if that changes my mind or my vote, so be it. But I take it very seriously that it's my job to work with people and let them know this is why things are the way they are. And this is what I think we should do to fix it. And this is why I think you should support it because it benefits you. So I mean, growth is, listen, if we don't do something, we are going to like I already mentioned this, we are not on a great path right now. The trajectory is looking pretty grim. So everyone, it's time to call the entire city to the table to tackle this. I think once people learn more, and I've experienced this doing a lot of doors talking to people about this. Once you have a conversation with people here where they're coming from, talk to them about why this is important. Nine times out of 10 people feel good about it. You mentioned referendums a couple of times. Why do we have so many referendums and is that a good thing? And if not, what should we be doing about it? We've seen a spike in referendums for the past few years. The argument at first, my understanding was that the city was not listening. And I agreed with that. I agree. I think the city previous councils were not known for listening to the constituents of Portland or the entirety of the constituency. Fast forward. You know, there were several issues that I was working on a committee in 2021. What year is it? 2022. And, you know, those very items for minimum wage to cruise ships both showed up on a referendum while I was actively working in the committee. So this is when I was like, there's a disconnect. This is being worked on. So what's going on? And I think, you know, my proposal that I shared with you earlier about how I think we should restructure the way our rules work, I think would go a really long way because it calls people in.  Anytime I need to get something done in my district, first, the first group of people I reach out to in my constituents, because without them, I got nothing. I need them to be on the same team as me. So I think referenda, we're in a really unique situation where our referenda process, it's very easy to get an item on referendum, citizen referendum on the ballot in the city of Portland. Unusually easy. I think it might be the easiest in the country. And what we're seeing now are groups who are in opposition to each other play a game of tennis. So we have June, we have November, and that is getting untenable. I think we shouldn't expect, I'm a fan of referenda, they are a very useful tool, marriage quality passed in the state of Maine via referenda, right? It should exist, and it should be used when appropriate. We cannot, I believe we cannot use referenda to pass policies every, every election. It is like trying to hang a picture on your wall, but instead of using a hammer, you're using a bulldozer. Why would you do that? I, I recognize that there are parts of our community that still don't feel heard. I totally see that I own it. It's why I'm proposing changes to our rules so that hopefully they can feel more heard. But I think right now we are we are starting to see burnout. The community is absolutely done with referenda, which my concern is, God forbid we need one. People are just going to say no to it because they're, they're just done with the concept of it at the municipal level. I think a lot of it comes down to trust. And that is, you know, I'll tie it back into why we're here today. I think that's a big part of the mayor's rule. Re-establishing trust with the community. I want you to give me a quick answer on a really complicated question. Short-term rentals. How is, are they a problem? Is it a big problem? Is it, you know, is the regulation sufficient? Is the enforcement sufficient? What, what should we be doing about short-term rentals given that, as you say, we're in a housing crisis? Yes, you gave me my setup here. We are in a housing crisis, which means we need to revisit everything until we're outside of an housing crisis, until it's in the rearview mirror. I do think, and this is just from data, that we are, our enforcement of our existing ordinance around short-term rentals is not working the way it should. This summer, there are hundreds of units that have been operating illegally, right? So that's a problem, because not only does that tell me we're not enforcing them, it tells me that people are okay with skirting the law. And if you don't enforce something after you've given them the opportunity to be educated, because, you know, I know some people might not know what the law is, then, then we have a problem. So I do think it's time, this council, as long as I've been on it, has not in committee had a conversation around short-term rentals. Pretty confusing. Do you ask me why? It feels like it's a good time to have the conversation, because it's not a one and done. This is an ongoing conversation. I think we have to be really clear about what we're talking about. The island communities, very different short-term rental conversation than when we're talking about downtown or off Peninsula, right? And that's where the nuance of community comes in. But I think it is time to have, to revisit the conversation, I think that we need to do everything we can to incentivize long-term rentals.  They own a three-unit and they rent out the second or third or short-term. But I think most Portlanders, even though I know the short-term rental referendum, the ones that failed, I think most Portlanders are acknowledging that what we have right now is ill-fitted.  And even if that conversation is as simple as, okay, how are we going to be better about enforcement? That's great. I mean, we have these rules, these ordinances, for an example, but for a reason rather. But I do think that in the big picture, holistic conversation around housing right now, short-term rentals play a pretty big role. And in the last 10 years, we've seen them do this. And right now globally, we are seeing that short-term rentals are having some unintended consequences on local housing markets. So, again, my North Star, we are in a housing crisis. We got to take it seriously. And if that means revisiting what we currently have to understand what's a better option for us right now, then I'm all in on that. Because, again, what's happening right now is not meeting with them. Completely unrelated. We have three high schools. There's been talk about consolidating them. Do you favor that? Do you have an idea which high school should be the winner? I'm not going to pick a winner. It's actually really interesting in such a short period of time. I've watched the conversation go from being very reluctant, for the community, being very reluctant to having that conversation to it being actively discussed from school board members to parents. I think people are recognizing that it is time. And it's time to do that by pulling the community into that conversation. Obviously, it's outside of the purview of the council that is school board first. But I'm surprised by the number of people who are openly talking about how in favor they are of it. Because it's just not the model doesn't work anymore. It's outgrown what it once was. So I don't know. I think those are both pretty unique campuses, Portland Enduring specifically. Whatever we do, it needs to be something that we're proud of. We build a new campus. We need to make sure we say, well, that's our school. We're proud of that thing. And I feel the same way about everything from infrastructure to sidewalks, street lanes. But overall, I think that the community, it feels like what I'm hearing from a lot of people, people who typically disagree on almost everything, that has become something that a lot of folks are ready to talk about. So I'm actually excited about that conversation because it feels like one that it needed to be had. Quick one, it's a ranked choice election. You're going to put yourself first. Who do you put second? Oh, I do like to answer every question that is asked of me, but I think I might pass on this one. Mostly because I haven't actually given it that much thought. Well, you're going to have lots of opportunities to think about it because you have a number of forums. I will say that. I guess the ultimate question for everybody is, you know, why do you want to be mayor and why should we vote for you? And I think that would be the way to end up this conversation. I love the way you phrased it. Most people say congratulations. Are you okay? Because is everything all right? It's a great question. Why run for mayor? Why not run for the district forestry together? Why not, you know, be done? Like I started at the beginning of this conversation, I care so much about municipal government and I care so much about Portland. The city is so important to me and to everyone in my world. Even when people get really frustrated with Portland and they're angry with us and they're angry at just the state of things. They care. Sometimes they're caring very loudly at me, but they care deeply and that is so special. How many communities have you traveled to where you can just feel you could be anywhere? It doesn't matter. Like it could just be, there is no sense of community and this place is just rich with community. It's rich with people who want to leave the place better than they found it. For me, I have, and this is one of the reasons why I ran in 2020 for my seat.  You give up, you walk away or you do something about it and I'm a candidate or mayor who has concrete plans to solve our biggest issues. I am almost to the point overly detailed with what I think we need to do and people want that. People are creating that now more than I've ever seen before in our government or even, you know, I've lived in a few places. I've never seen the urgency that we're seeing right now and I'm in it to solve the problems. I want people to rank me as their first vote or their second if they are looking for someone who's going to try to meet the moment. My campaign is not a laundry list. It's not a wish list. It's a promise to Portlanders that we're going to meet the moment and we're going to do it together. So I'm not doing this for my profile, believe me. I never thought I would have this much public attention. I'm not doing this for any reason other than I love this place. I love the people who live here and I want more people to be able to call this place home if they want to. And so I believe it's time for a generational change. I think it's time for us to look forward towards new policies that are common sense and they allow people to thrive. I don't think that's a crazy idea. I think that's what most Portlanders want, even if they fall on different parts of the political spectrum. People want to be able to be proud of where they live and they want to be able to say, you know, that's my city. And so that's why I'm running. I'm running to do that because we can do better and I know we can. And I, you know, with as much admiration and respect of anyone who's running for this seat or the others, I'm the candidate who's going to do that. So that's why I would like people to vote for me and I'm always here to talk to people about what matters to them. Truly, even if we don't agree, I'm here for them. I think we'll make that the last word and thank you very much for coming in and thank you for putting yourself out and running for office. Thank you. I really appreciate you having me.