I'm sure he's going to be scared, so I'm going to be scared. Yeah, everyone's really done. This is great. For our work at HowlRound, how we structure all of the things that we do, and I think that it's amazing just to say to this group about ways in which we can all move forward together. Sadeha Halyar is an author and an activist. He's also a connector, a comedy who is trying to facilitate his ideas all over the country and where they all are in the world, and he's the one who makes sense of these disparate pieces. Since the late 90s, he's been advancing the Commons paradigm. As an activist and independent scholar, an author and a blogger, took out his blog at Halyar, in my mind it's a French translation. He works with the Commons Strategies Group and a diversity of international activists, academics, and hacktivists on a range of strategic collaborations on the Commons. These range from books, to essays, to conferences, to workshops, to policy initiatives, to public talks and movements organizing. He recently joined Schumacher Center for New Economics in Great Barrington, Massachusetts, to start reinventing the Commons program. And just to say that there's broad support for these movements of making Commons a Commons building in Europe. It is happening and there isn't that level of support here in the U.S. yet, but David is a force for that to happen and it's going to be, we're so lucky to have him here today with us to share his presence. Welcome, David. Thank you for that introduction and thank you, Matthew and Carlos and Double Edge, for having me here. It's really an honor to be among artists because I consider artists to formers to be under-front here with a lot of reinterpretation and expression of the Commons. And so this is a dialogue I very much want to have, but I haven't had enough of it. And I think the comments I might also add is very much about survival. Not just bare survival, but more householding in the non-Marvel sense. But it's also historically what's been about survival, of taking care of one's, taking care of oneself according to one's own terms of use, as opposed to those from people in the common sense. So my goal here is to give you a quick fly-by of like, the dozens of rooms in the Commons with a structure, so that you can have a sense of where it's at from, let's just say, the activist perspective and not from the traditional academic perspective, which I find well-established. Of course, a little bit of background on myself, so you can understand some of what's informed on work. I worked for Nader in the 70s, and most of my friends, in my 20s, were fighting what I would now call the enclosures of the Commons. Fighting the privatization of airways, federal research, public lands goes on and on. Ralph had a conference in 1980 called Controlling What We Own, which was very influential to me, so it was an attempt to try this name precisely this. So Ralph was very formative, I didn't realize it until 20 years later how formative it was going to be, because the Commons didn't exist as a discourse then. I also spent some time in Congress. This was me at a 24-year-old working for a 30-year-old congressman who was himself a former Naderite, who then went on to become a lobbyist for the government of Egypt in Monsanto. Then I had the great privilege of working for 25 years as a non-television collaborator with Norma Lear, a TV producer. I had worked for People for the American Way, which is how I met him, and then I worked as an advisor and collaborator. A prince of a human being I left him five or six years ago when he was 87 or 88. He's now 94 last week. He's doing a Latina remake of One Day of the Time for Netflix or Amazon. At 94, it's like... In some ways, my two mentors were the left and right side of the brain. Ralph being the hyper-rationalist and policy actor. Norma and the being the prince humanist who once memorably said that he considered an audience laughing as close to the divine as he could understand the divine, and he worked from that level creatively. Well, we should stop the conversation with the word enclosures, which is a very important term for getting out of the... let's just call it the neoliberal consensus, the American consensus for how American society works, because enclosures helps us of capitalism, which is off the table in mainstream discourse. And so enclosures is about what capital does in claiming the commas. Because the commas is an unknown resource that nobody owns and therefore it's free to take. It's free for the taking. It's the whole history of colonialism because nobody had deeds. Well, the English enclosure movement which many of you may know about which the landed aristocracy took over and shared pastures and forests and water. It's... forcing everybody to move to the cities and become poppers and vegetables is now replicated in itself in Africa where there's a huge international land grab by hedge funds and sovereign investment funds displacing people who live there for generations as indigenous people or subsistence people setting up the future for famines and urban problems. I want to give an overview of some of the range of enclosures going on. Rainwater in Bolivia was briefly considered private property owned by Bactel and the World Bank and they took over the Kachabamba municipal water supply in the early 2000s leading to social upheaval and riots to basically reclaim a shared resource. You couldn't collect rainwater off your roof because that belonged to Bactel. 20% of the human genome was currently patented and privately owned which has profound consequences if, for example, you were a Utah company that has the breast cancer susceptibility gene which means you can prevent others from doing research in that area without threatening to violate their patent. And this is replicated across all sorts of living systems where you can now own living systems not just bacteria but clones and laboratories Harvard owns the Anco Malice patented et cetera. So a whole frontier of enclosure. Enclosure is not just privatization it's turning something that was shared into a commodity and dispossessing the people whose cultural identities and practices were based upon that resource or all of them as users. So it's very extreme so far that there's a book called Mass Who Can't Use. There's an algorithm that's embedded in software that can be patented and owned and somebody else can't use it. So it's actually a mathematics that is owned. You can't own Mick in McDonald's because people have tried to do it in McDonald's a San Diego-based company playing in the Scottish-English prefix that's gone after McViga and McSushi that goes on and on. So parts of our language and our mental level and that really in the mid-1990s, ASCAP the performance licensing body went after the Girl Scouts and hundreds of other summer camps for singing around the campfire because of course this is a public performance that should be licensed and they had the legal right to but only back off after the public operated so large that they said okay but they still do have that legal title and I consider market enclosures kind of the great unacknowledged scandal of our time because it's always equated with progress and growth and prosperity and came in betterment but of course much of the time even most it's really destructive all of the non-market aspects of life be it ecological community, social it's monetizing and marketizing all of these aspects of life so another thing we need to start off quickly and just dispensably is the comments is not tragic it's a genre the tragedy of the comments idea got started by Garrett Hardin in this 1968 essay in science magazine called the tragedy of the comments in which he said imagine a pastry in which anybody can put as many cattle as they want and they can graze as much as they want who will result in over exploitation of the comments but of course this is a total fanciful non-imperial fable but it was picked up by property rights advocates and conservatives and economists as a truism that has drilled into every on the graduates head that any shared resource results in a tragedy Louis Tide who some of you may know talkishly said that the tragedy is the tragedy of unmanaged laissez-faire common pre-resources with easy access for non-communicating meaning of course if you have neighbors in an area you talk to each other, you negotiate you work it out and in the south emers this is how we resolve this tragedy of the comments the science says no horses on the comments I'm joking of course but you know there are ways to prevent the tragedy and yes over exploitation of resources occur but that's not really a comment that's an open access free fall standard economists like to conflate an unowned resource with the comments now it took well it's just too stress the comment is not just a resource as hardly we have it's a community with social norms and practices for managing the resource so it's kind of an integrated bundle as opposed to simply in our physical resource and it took professor Eleanor Ostrom an Indiana university political scientist to over the course of her career in the 70's to the 2012 when she died to empirically rebut pardon and to amass hundreds of examples mostly in developing countries so-called developing countries rural context where farmlands, fisheries forests, water, wild game were successfully managed by the commons and she wrote a famous 1990 book called governing the commons which in a sort of social science death social science way explained the principles of successful commons there were eight major principles and she had founded a whole international scholarly community the international association for the study of the commons there's a whole tradition associated with her she won the Nobel Prize in 2009 she was significant that that was just a year after the 2008 financial crisis she wanted someone different and she was the first woman to win and I don't think that's incidental to her focusing on relationships and cooperation rather than the standard male economists moving objects around so she was just a pioneer for helping to validate and understand this for a more deeper level however some of us try to get to a deeper level she was more of a behavioralist I think there's more of a subjective intersubjective action dimension to the commons and peter linebaugh who's a marxist historian who is written extensively about the commons has said that in medieval times and he himself has written there is no commons without common aid, comedy being social practices and traditions and norms and rituals and traditions by which we develop a coherent way to manage the resources social. Beating the bounds is one way to protect the commons every year there was a festival in many english commons to walk the perimeter of the commons and if somebody had put up a fence or a hedge to try to enclose it for private purposes they would knock it down and it would be sort of like the community policing of their shared wealth and apartheid very convivial so I love the metaphor of beating the bounds as what we need to do today to protect the shared wealth we need to find these ways to protect the shared wealth so let me talk a little bit about varieties of commons to give you some specific examples to give a little concreteness in my narrative group for land I mentioned my profound experience with seed sharing when I was at this village two hours outside of hydrobad women were essentially on the wage laborers somebody else's farm and couldn't afford more than one meal a day as a result but then they had the bright idea of recovering traditional seeds for agriculture which were more appropriate for the semi-arid region of Andhra Pradesh than the monoculture the ag biotech world and hoisted upon them and they were able to grow enough to feed themselves two meals a day and to federate this project among many other villages to accept that they were doing videotaping that they shared among each other for me a very moving story of self-emancipation through comedy and dignity and ownership and this is how they wouldn't allow their seeds to be shared to be sold that were only shared or exchanged which I think is an important part of the commons of making resources inalienable to the market there's a whole system of rice intensification which is like open source agriculture where farmers from Sri Lanka to India to Cuba have gone on the line to trade agronomy techniques which have improved yields by 20 to 50 percent without DMO's or pesticides or herbicides all of this without government ministries or scientists being involved all about amount of collaboration I call that like an eco-digital commons to show that the digital world and the ecosystems are not separate realms they're starting to interpenetrate in Peru there's the potato park where indigenous tribes have collectively gotten a very innovative legal regime to protect the biodiversity of potatoes there they have like 900 different varieties of potatoes one of those bio-diverse areas in the world but of course the ag biotech companies wanted to seize the patent the genetic information of these to claim ownership so this was a significant legal innovation for them to protect there I think it's called the agro-ecological heritage site but very instructive if only as a metaphor for some of the issues we face what's interesting is that there's an estimated 2 billion people around the world who use the commons for survival for subsistence so money being exchanged economists generally don't regard the commons as interesting it's not a market regime even though they're meeting their needs in a non-market way so I find this astounding that there's not as much serious attention given to it even after Ostrom's Nobel Prize she's been largely ignored by the economics but closer to home I consider relocalizing food and enactment of commons are attempted to try to make even if there might be market behavior involved it's not capital driven markets and it's attempting to make these markets accountable to the social community and part of it and there's a whole number of innovations going on in that space there's a whole movement that's developing especially in Europe called the city as a commons and the whole idea that the moral claims on city resources and spaces is that when you talk about the city as a commons because instead investors are wealthy where development is regarded as the prime goal for what a city should be about you start to say equity and access of the ordinary people is the system and that value is created by these people everything as much as valuable as the outside infusions of capital so there's attempts to do open data commons there's several cities policies and Bologna they have this fantastic post bureaucratic innovation the city bureaucracy enters into public commons partnerships instead of public private where they do contracts with self organized groups of citizens and neighborhoods to take care of a space and have formal legal authority and even financial assistance and technical assistance it's a collaboration between city government and and I think David Wager once he's the anarchist anthropologist once said that the left has not dealt with its answer to bureaucracy which I find profoundly alienated everybody finds it alienated the left has no answer to that this I think have the seeds of a post bureaucratic solution in which government can work with commons or be a partner of commons to enable more enlivening ways of needing needs and governing ourselves alternative currencies pretty robust area for trying to capture community value instead of being siphoned away by debt driven banks so that's a whole discussion into itself the web is like vast hosting infrastructure for self organized commons I don't think people realize that this was the new model that was being developed well, of course a lot of the attention goes to the capital driven Facebook, Twitter, Google in fact, there are lots of self organized commons from open source software, Wikipedia and dozens of different content sites that are functionless commons there's the whole I mentioned some of these open access publications there's that explosion Creative commons licenses are now used in more than 170 countries it's termed copyright inside out Creative commons licenses if you're the copyright holder you can say I'm going to put this license on which means my work can be shared in advance for these ways, there's six basic licenses but the point is to make that in advance in perpetuity, shareable so it's a legal hack around copyright law which is otherwise quite possible to sharing there's a whole access to all the publishing movement there's almost 10,000 journals that don't have copyright so they use Creative commons licenses so academia functions as it should in sharing its knowledge especially since a lot of that knowledge is taxpayer finance in the first place there's a whole movement to make college textbooks you know if you've probably encountered these artificially new editions year after year so you have to re-buy the textbook and you can't share it community colleges where a lot of students drop out because they can't afford textbooks has spearheaded an effort to make textbooks shareable as a problem it's sort of like academia reclaiming this mission instead of being let's say the host for parasitic science the open source movement is like exploded in a whole new front here there's all sorts of global design networks with local production which I think is the seeds for new types of local production that's more ecologically benign there's a farm hack a major figure of this is in New Hampshire but it's a global community they've designed dozens of different types of agricultural equipment it can be locally sourced inexpensively and it's sort of more creatively and you don't have to buy a John Deere so there's some co-found implications there FAB Labs, you know Barcelona has more than a dozen specialized FAB Labs which is arguably the rudiments of a different kind of local production system with leveraging off-reported sources, Arduino electronic circuit boards and even a wiki speed car so a lot taking off there in pure production so as this but I want to move to another stage now as somebody who came out of the Washington world I approached the commas initially as economics, policy and politics but I think ultimately it's about world views which is where this conversation in the morning starts to connect with the economy first let's dispense with this political regard, politics is a debate between too much state and too much market and what's the proper balance both of which ignores the vast amount of generative activity through the commas that is simply not discussed, not named not considered realistic as a way to accomplish the meaning of human needs or self-governance in other words we can have we can meet our needs we can govern ourselves in ways of the alive of the market we can bypass that through commas the way a lot of local food systems do the way Linux has, the way occupied in its short life or maybe I'm going to lie but the commas also is about ourselves in our whole richest full dimension it's a world making system it's all right and right and I've only learned this in the past several years that this subjective dimension of common aim is as important as the resource management the way the commas are and it really is a different universe of value and it's about relationality especially and how that works out and these are some of the principles that I regard as as important to the commas of meeting basic needs first instead of market wants it's about long term stewardship responsibility, entitlement fairness, inalienability rulemaking by the people from the bottom up as opposed to from the top down those are some touchstones for thinking about the commas that's a different framework of value and to try to communicate this I'm sort of like how do I convey this especially to western audiences who may not get it I came to one conference this woman who showed a slide of the African desert and this is of course how we westerners can see it but the indigenous people draw the same map that way and it's like it's a work of art it has their human reality and spirit embodied in how they perceive and navigate through the desert and I think that's an important lesson about the commas is that this whole wealth of inner life this morning is hugely generative, regenerative and alive and in aliveness and that's what the commas for me is ultimately all about even though of course we can and must talk about it in the policy and economic realms as well but the other thing that happens along the way to the commas is that familiar you can't say that too well familiar dualities when or rational not the irrational the objective and the subject the collective and the individual the public and the private they all start to mingle and blur and these are almost those dualisms are artifacts I think the 20th century and even the enlightenment which is precisely part of the problem that we don't acknowledge our whole holistic selves in an organic way which helps us start to grapple with that but that begs the question what then is the ontology the commas the economic says we're home on economics we're rational utility maximizing individuals that's who we are but of course so what is a commas well I don't say I have the answer but my colleague of German an activist Silke Hofer tonight called Patterns of Commoning which contains dozens of examples of successful commas and we built upon the the ideas Christopher Alexander who was an architect who wanted to know why are certain public spaces and buildings so humanly satisfying and he developed this whole idea of pattern languages which is the accretion of certain practices so over time find a way in certain patterns and certain patterns persist because they're so satisfying we meet our inner needs in deep ways and this is a result not of any a priori taxonomy or analysis but of social practice of the actual human beings and that's sort of the model that Silke and I took for Patterns of Commoning the ontology is a way to understand commas through these emergent patterns we are inspired a lot by complexity theory which is a science based system studying the living systems how do living systems self-organize themselves and I think that there's a lot to be found through Patterns interestingly evolutionary science is starting to discover cooperation in the commas I've been in touch a lot with David he's been trying to apply cooperation principles that he discovered through evolution and he worked briefly with Eleanor Ostrom before her death trying to apply that to neighborhoods and civic environments and I'm not sure where our conversations might go but I think there's something important there evolutionary scientists also are starting to realize it's a controversy still but many are saying natural selection occurs in a collective basis not an individual which leads to the saying quote selfishness beats altruism within groups altruistic groups beat selfish groups everything else is commentary very interesting so there's some really serious thought going about rethinking and evolution my own personal guru on this is somebody who's maybe a little bit more far out there but there's no flink he's a theoretical biologist he's an eco-philosopher in Germany he's only published one book in English and I've met him through my associations with people in Germany but he wrote this book that came out last year Alive His Feeling and the Metamorphosis of Science by legit wonder and he reinterprets with empirical research that's breaking right now the whole Darwinistic narrative not to sweep the sides and rebut it but to show that the core aspect of evolution is not nasty competition only that the core aspect of life that he sees in all living phenomena from small bacteria on to mammals is the need to develop creatively and adaptively one's identity and his sub-speciality is I love the term biosemiotics in which there's this communication meaning that is exchanged through earth in fact we recently saw an article recently of how trees and forests communicate with each other and so he is studying this quite seriously but the problem is he's kind of a pariah within mainstream evolution because he wants, he thinks and argues quite persuasively in this book that subjectivity, spirituality, meaning, consciousness is an active force in evolution it's not a side, it's not a peripheral epiphanon it's something that, and right now our consciousness and spirituality work as it is, is altering the earth it's having biophysical impacts but he argues this not just in a global sense but in very micro test cases of how it's not as if bacteria have consciousness but they do have a sense of adaptive building their identity and some would criticize him for having a telos and a point that he considers creative emergence to be an important part of the story of evolution which interestingly is an important way to rewrite the whole free market narrative based on a nasty, brutish and competitive notion of evolution which evolved during the Victorian area of industrialization and has become the accepted substrate for how we think about free markets free markets work the way they do because they're based on Darwinism there's this twinning of Darwinism and free markets but Andreas argues that there's this social cooperative symbiotic holistic dimension to evolution as well that needs to be heard mainstream doesn't really want to hear about it but so he argues for a first person subjectivity science and argues for a bio poetics the title of one of his other books and has an essay contrasting the enlightenment and says we have to move to the enlightenment so for me it's kind of a mind blowing way to reinterpret a lot of things because it's based on a heterodox interpretation of evolutionary science that is sort of one of the well on that for a moment because it takes a while to absorb that but I think it's important let me just quickly I have a few things here I guess I have seven but I want to scoot through a number of things that I regard as practical vectors for how we start to support comedy one stop the imploders this of course is a matter of resistance as opposed to generating commas but that's sort of a key priority second recognize comedy as a regenerative paradigm that opens up the entire new solution sets once you start to tap into people's moral creativity trust reciprocity creativity solutions become available that otherwise aren't within the old framework we're just not seen as credible we have to reinvent law for the commas this is one of my current more than a pet one of my current priorities because the prevailing system of state law is philosophically hostile to the commas because it focuses on private property market growth individual rights and doesn't recognize collective activities or the generativity of it most law that protects the commas is a hack the way creative commas licenses or the general public license for software are creative hacks around the law they're not systemic alternatives but I wrote a memo last year that itemized five or six dozen areas where people trying to hack the law from cooperative law to indigenous peoples to contract law to property law and I think we need to start talking about this as a unified body of law to advance the commas the long discussion same thing about reinventing finance for commas most money in finance is based on banks create most of the money in the world through loans government is basically given over the authority to create money to private banks so one reason we have trouble dealing with the ecology is that debt driven lending creates this growth imperative a long discussion the point is we need to divide commas friendly forms of money in finance another mega concept but there are serious people working in this we need to leverage the sharing and open networks to support comedy to get beyond the uber and air bnb extracted predatory models basically they are parasites in social sharing that extract value instead of regenerating value and allowing the people in sharing to keep that value we need to rethink structures of state power to decriminalize comedy and support comedy you know the idea of comedy being criminal goes back to witches in the medieval times were criminalized and persecuted precisely because women were disproportionately dependent upon commas for their subsistence and when they enclosed them and the women would continue to use those resources they would be persecuted and we see this with lots of sharing online and other areas where they are trying to prevent farmers from sharing seeds there is Europe so we have to decriminalize comedy and affirmatively support comedy that requires us thinking how should the state behave another big topic but maybe a counterintuitive thing I have learned is we need to learn to live with ambiguity, paradox and experimentalism because we are in this transition we have to build within a hostile structures so of course we are going to have paradoxical feelings and we are not going to be pure everything is going to be a hybrid so it is a question of how you maintain the integrity of the vision while working in the hostile system as opposed to being vulnerable to co-optation so art and survival I don't have many slides in this because in some ways this is the discussion I want to have but I do think that art is very much about expressing authentic human experience and realities which is so important and implicitly therefore it is about the existence and it is also a way of envisioning it is a way of imagining and envisioning a new world and I think equally there is all these alternative economic movements that sometimes are overly cerebral and cognitive or embedded within political and policy structures and can't back up to what is the human condition that we are trying to emulate how do we express that and I think that is where art has a enormous role to play in an authentic way and I think many of these movements would welcome those kinds of alliances to help them reimagine as well as getting the power of art without becoming propaganda and art becomes alive and involved in political issues so I see art and culture is about new ways of speaking from deep places which will indirectly and sometimes directly have profound political economic consequences but we need to speak from those places with a sovereign voice and that is where I think a lot of exciting synergy is imaginable and these are my books this is my introduction to the Commons which I consider I'm proud to say that it's been translated into seven different lineages in the past two years which I'm proud of that but I think it's more indicative of this kind of international interest and energy in the Commons as a way for reconceptualizing a post-capitalist vision in a positive way so it's not just appropriate but it's creative constructive way and I think that's what a lot of us not what for me was the appeal of moving beyond laterism of starting to see some of these constructive alternatives that are incredible these two books by the way are both available online for free if you care to chase them down welcome to commons.org and patternsofcommoning.org so I don't know what next are we going for groups if we should make some space for some Q&A in a large group before going on to the next conversation yes our end time will still remain but I think there's we can take, you know, ten minutes I just wanted to maybe call on Hal around to talk about how you built on these concepts the Commons that is Hal around so partially by accident, partially by just what was in the air, partially by you know, Todd's kind of unearthing of and getting to know the work of David Belair you know I think in a way one of the Hal around platforms are you could say that they're very much like an open source project in that initially it was a small group of people who came together to address a certain set of problems that we had in the theatre field and then it evolved into this open call for the theatre community itself to produce on these platforms and then this kind of implicit management system started to develop out that the agenda, the conversation the ideas that are shared are all that agenda set by the community of people who choose who step up and want to participate and so that's you know, that's kind of the essence of this particular Knowledge Commons Hal around and so all the platforms operate from this idea of peer production all for the benefit of everyone who's participating for the benefit of anyone who wants to have access to this resource it's so great to meet you and to see the depth of your thinking about this one of the things that I found particularly naughty is the the kind of well the inexorability of the market for one but in relation to this notion of sufficiency so this is something that I was so happy to see on your website because it's a word that I've been using for a while that sense that we in this room or in any room that we gather in we are sufficient we have what we need and there's an abundance of that because we have what we need to make world together however well we don't have I mean I have it I work at a state university but I imagine many other people in this room don't have it's money to pay their bill we many of us run organizations that depend on wealthy patrons who increasingly run the organizations over the decades of their lives and have no sense of the deeper mission or the kind of innate common thinking that is common thinking that is innate artists and collective artists like theater artists so I guess what I'm looking for is wisdom, advice the key, the open door to you know to like how do we actually live sufficiently and spread that when we're well apart from the escapist collectives I think we're in an agonizing transition zone I mean I can't fund my own work very well to this and I think that there's one reason there's a focus on finance for the commons and alternative currencies as a way to capture one of that value ourselves as an alternative system in the meantime the philanthropic world donor angels or it's more risky skimming off market stuff to support the commons because it slides inevitably to market orientation we're muddling through it and we're trying to admit this but the robustness of the commons form especially in the digital age is being demonstrated without a doubt there's a number this is an under theorized area we have some instructive models like the free and open source software foundations that collect money run by the elders of the community and then put into the community the problem is open source has a stable modus operandi with the market without being taken over that's a longer story in other words they are not as endangered by market use of open source software because most commons are endangered by having too much intercourse with markets especially capital so I don't have a good answer right can I say something to that I've been thinking about this a lot for years and I was talking to BJ in the past that I was aware about what happened in Argentina when the market crashed and 30% of the population was left without a job so there was that spontaneous butterfly created and we developed all this it was natural an alternative currency which actually was the thing that stopped because city banks and other banks got really scared so they went to the government and said this and we need to recapture because they are actually making billions of dollars outside of the system this is why sorry the blockchain software which undergirds Bitcoin Bitcoin is a capitalist speculative currency it's bad but the blockchain that allows the authentication of Bitcoins through the network without a third party guarantor like the bank the government is like this potentially breaking the atom because it allows self-organized collaborative sharing the value on networks without any third party so this is the people working so and maybe to summarize where I'm going there are many steps but what I've been thinking is that so I've been trying to create commons and collectives since 74 or 75 and observing that one of the challenges the large the big big challenges that we all have behaviors and narratives inside of ourselves that sort of undermine our attempts to be with the other and to have a common thing so we are taught to do things we learn how to do things in a certain way that don't function so as soon as we are trying to do commons we get disappointed or discouraged discouraged because you know the selfishness or the competition all those things are already indoctrinated so then I started thinking well you know we need to somehow like you said I really appreciate the thing instead of fighting in front of you know create hinges because there is no way out of money in my opinion I don't think we have a way out of money we can go around in several ways money has value so our food control has increased correct because it's so then I started thinking about exchanges which is what I learned from Stacy and it came to mind something that an economist once said to me when we were in the crisis he said you know your theater in Argentina is not going to survive because you don't have a diversified portfolio and I was what the fuck are you talking about I mean what is that so I then started researching and somehow I feel that some of those steps we have been taking by having our food system so embracing which I understand as an individual is very difficult because you have a job but once you start creating collective or working in a collective situation it becomes a little more accessible like we have a couple of cars that are so bold produced well the first priority to answer your question is comments help you de-modify and reduce your dependence on markets and therefore that's the first step to asking a way creating the, and then the second step is starting to federate those so they can be mutually cooperative the way the digital world of open source open access publishing and Wikipedia are all kind of this fraternity of mutually supportive open source so you'll be in the second degree so I'm going to take two maybe three more questions and then we're going to move on and we're going to keep talking so today and we're going to keep talking in these smaller groups can I propose that we don't do that we have about 17 million hours of talking that we want to okay great we also want to give respect to the subject the proposal on this here is to close this conversation and move on in a way that will enable everyone to have more time to talk and as well as tomorrow tonight and tomorrow