You're watching FJTN, the Federal Judicial Television Network. We also want this training program to give you an opportunity to learn more about sex events. I attended the program today so I could take back information from myself as well as fellow officers about the investigating of people charged with sexually-based offenses at the federal level. It's also difficult for the victim to see it as a sexual crime. We at the Federal Correction and Supervision Division feel that this is an important issue to be addressing and that we have made it a priority at the AO. I think this training will teach us to do better pre-sentences, number one, to start the process and secondly will help us supervise them by knowing what kind of conditions to impose and knowing more about the offender himself when he's released for supervision. The client is the community or the community is the client, so I may be treating, we may be treating an offender, an individual, but that individual may not be my primary client. We've always heard about this program at Butler, but now we've actually been here and have had an opportunity to see the staff, meet the staff, see the program, so it's going to give us a lot of insight into what goes on back here and how we can continue that in the community. Welcome. This special needs offenders program is a focused addition in this series featuring the sex offender treatment program at the Federal Correctional Institution in Butner, North Carolina. In June 2000, nearly 100 pretrial services and probation officers participated in a workshop at the Federal Correctional Institution in Butner. Sponsored in part by the Federal Judicial Center, the seminar was presented by the staff of Butner's sex offender treatment program. For two and a half days, the program's director, Dr. Andres Hernandez, and his staff trained officers on a variety of topics including an overview of sex offenders and the treatment program at Butner, a sex offender specific PSI, and risk assessment and supervision. So much material was covered in those two days that we couldn't adequately cover it all in one two hour broadcast, so we divided the program into two parts. Today is part one, which begins with an overview of sex offenders and the specifics of the Butner program. The part two of the series will pick up with a sex offender specific PSI and continue with risk assessment and supervision techniques. Now, if you're interested in learning more about standards of assessment and treatment, let us know through your evaluations. If there's enough interest, we'll consider developing a third installment in this series. Dr. Hernandez put together a wealth of information and supplemental reading materials. Most of those materials, along with a complete slide presentation, can be found on the DCN. Other materials referred to by Dr. Hernandez can be found on the website for the Center for Sex Offender Management, and their web address is www.csom.org. Let's start with Dr. Hernandez and the warden of FCI, Butner, Steven DeWall. Let me once again welcome you to our program entitled Effective Management of Sex Offenders in the Community. This was a project that was several months ago, just an idea, and I'm so glad to have you here. It's now a reality. We have an excellent program, or what we believe is an excellent program for you. We have a lot of information to share. We also want to hear from you. Certainly you have a wealth of knowledge and expertise that we need to benefit from, and I hope today and tomorrow we can have an exchange of information between our two agencies. Before I move on, I wanted to introduce our warden, Warden Steven DeWall, who has made certainly this training conference possible. These training materials certainly are possible due to Warden DeWall's support. So without further ado, I'd like to introduce Warden DeWall. Good morning. Let me start off by saying that I want to welcome you to the Federal Correctional Complex here in Butner, North Carolina.  I think you will find that as you go through the program over the next day and a half, two days, that they are going to request a lot of feedback from your point of view in reference to this program, referencing issues, referrals, how it can work. This will help support us as we continue to go forward with the Bureau of Prisons Executive Staff on exactly how this program is going to work. And again, welcome to FCC Butner. Thank you. I have a lot of material to go through. We're going to be talking about sex offenders. When I refer to sex offenders, I'm going to refer to criminals.  I frequently get questions from probation officers, from other individuals, and the question goes, well, this person was convicted of child pornography, possession of child pornography. Does he see a sex offender? And my answer to that is yes, he has committed a sexual crime. Okay, so these are some of the more traditional sexual crimes that we encounter in our practice. Child molestation, abuse, assault, rape, indecent exposure, masturbation. These are the more traditional crimes. Now, in the federal system, we tend to see an overrepresentation of a group of inmates primarily comprised of child pornographers. These are people who engage, as you well know, in distribution, traffic of child pornography, downloading child pornography from the internet, using the U.S. Postal Service to get these materials or introduce them via U.S. Customs. So these individuals do end up in our jurisdiction, in our prisons, and they tend not to end up in state systems. We have this other group of criminals.  Those who pander, these are the panderers, individuals who engage in traffic in child prostitution, not those who engage in it, but those who profit from it, recruit children, groom children to, and sometimes abduct children to engage in this type of activity. We also have a group of criminals who are very sophisticated about what they do. These individuals engage in what's called the child sex trade tourism. Does anyone know what that is? Has anyone encountered these cases? Have you heard of pedophilic organizations setting up tours overseas? In Mexico, certain parts of South America, Central America, Southeast Asia, in certain parts of Europe, to go for the explicit purpose of sexually abusing children. There are some pedophilic organizations in this country who sponsor orphanages in Southeast Asia, and the sponsorship is for the exclusive purpose of having access and quote unquote right to sexually abuse those children. This is a largely unknown type of criminal activity. It's very sophisticated, but it has, as you might expect, profound, profound consequences on an entire system that is affected by it. We also have murderers who can also be classified as sexual offenders. If the murder was sexually motivated. These are the more unusual type of sexual crimes, but nonetheless, these are quite prevalent in our system. Who are these individuals? Again, by definition, they are criminals. These individuals may or may not be parapheria. Parapheria refers to a group of psychiatric diagnoses. Parameans deviant or away from normal.  These are all those disorders, all those individuals who may be considered sexually deviant.  A diagnosis of parapheria does not require that the person engage in criminal sexual behavior. There is a considerable overlap between parapherias and sexual crimes, but these are not synonymous categories. I want to highlight that issue. These are some of the parapherias that are listed in the DSM-4. This is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association. Pedophilia. Many child molesters are pedophiles. Many child molesters are not pedophiles. Or I should say, do not meet the criteria for pedophilia.  Many rapists are not sexual sadists.  Exhibitionism, voyeurism, these are people, the peeping toms. And the catch-all category, not otherwise specified. That is, when we don't have, when we haven't made up a term, a diagnostic label for a parapheriac, we make one up and say, not otherwise specified. I've seen some pretty creative diagnoses such as pictophilia for child pornographers. Now, there is no such thing. People just came up with that term, pictophilia. I think it's a profoundly erroneous category, but we'll leave my commentary for later. All right. What do these people have in common? What common characteristics do they have? There's a large study, very large-scale study that was conducted over an eight-year period.   This was probably the first study of its kind in which they ensured the inmate's anonymity for self-report. Again, 561 incarcerated male offenders, these are some of their demographics. The range of age 13 to 76, so really spanning the whole age range from teenagers to well advanced in age with a median part and an average age of 31.5 years. They were, for the most part, moderately educated. So you can say this is not a function, sexual offending is not a function of low education, low socioeconomic status. In fact, 40% of these individuals had at least one year of college. The federal system, particularly with child pornographers, this certainly holds up and we probably see a much higher percentage of individuals who have high educational attainment achievement. Individuals who are physicians, who are college graduates. Individuals who are in law enforcement. Number of individuals that we get in the federal system have advanced degrees. So socioeconomic and ethnic groups, again, not representative of any particular one. These 561 were pretty much from all socioeconomic and ethnic groups. I do want to mention something in the federal system. We have probably an overrepresentation by instant offense of Native American sex offenders. That is by virtue of the type of crimes and where those crimes are adjudicated. About 49, 48% of all instant offense sex offenders are Native Americans. In this particular sample, about 50% were married. Now this kind of shoots down that myth that sex offenders offend because of lack of opportunity. They're not having sex. They are socially incompetent and cannot be part of a relationship with another adult. Well in fact, over half were involved in a quote unquote meaningful adult intimate sexual relationship. Now this is a very good point. The majority of these individuals reported deviant sexual interest prior to age 18. I can't tell you how many times I've been confronted with cases of individuals who at 48, at 52, at 69 suddenly have an attack of pedophilia. That doesn't happen. It doesn't happen. Sexual interest prior to 18, prior to 18, that's when most of us have already developed our sexual arousal patterns. And for a person to say, look, I've never done this before. I've never been attracted to a child and here you find in their possession 10,000 images depicting child pornography that doesn't add up. So this is a very important finding. Another important finding is that these individuals engaged in the behavior multiple times. All too often we get these individuals saying, I did it only one time, only once or twice or as many times as they have been caught. Well, that doesn't happen. These individuals engage in this behavior multiple times and they accrue many, many, many victims. This particular sample accrued 100 over 195,000 victims. This is a significant number. Now this is a number that is skewed by high frequency sexual offenses such as exhibitionism, such as voyeurism. Nonetheless, even when you take all of those high frequency sexual crimes out of the equation, this is a very, very significant number. If I remember the data set correctly, there were only 53 child molesters who targeted boys. They reported over 20,000 victims, just that subgroup. So what are the implications of research like this and other similar findings? What I'd like for you to remember from this is sexual deviance often begins at a young age. It is seldom that a person will have an attack of pedophilia at 42. That doesn't happen like that. Sex offenders engage in multiple parapherias. It is seldom, and I'll talk more about this, it is seldom that they engage in only one type of criminal behavior or deviant sexual activity. The instant offense is the tip of the iceberg. Again, pretty much the same.  It's a group that is representative of everyone. Those who are poor, those who are rich, those who are in between. Black, white, brown, red. All socioeconomic and educational achievement. All right. This is consistent with data that we have collected in SOTP stands for sex offender treatment programs. And I'm going to use that acronym over and over again. I came on board and took the position of director of the sex offender treatment program in January of 1997. Since 1997, we've treated more individuals than 93. But in this particular study, we only looked at 93 individuals that have gone through the program. Some have completed the entire phase of the program. Some have been expelled from the program because of a wide variety of reasons. Some of these people are still in the program. We have or we typed four groups in this particular sample of 73. Child pornographers, those who engage in this luring and travel with intent. That's my sort of catch-all phrase for those who target children, try to meet up with them, travel across state line with the intention of sexually abusing them.  And then other. Others, these are individuals who are in for drug-related offenses, bank robbery. Not that many, but... So these are the numbers of offenders in each group. 39 being the largest group. Yes, sir? What incentive is there for the individual to volunteer to participate in this program? None. Except treatment. So this is a unique population. They do volunteer. Now some of them say, yes, you know, doctor, I want treatment. And when they actually get here and we put them through the treatment program and what it entails, they say, well, no, I really don't want to participate in this. We have some of that. There are very few who actually complete the program. And those individuals need to stay motivated and need to endure the process of treatment. That can be very grueling sometimes, you know, coming up with a victim list, a victim list that they don't want to admit to themselves, let alone to others, to the probation officer, to treatment providers for fear of prosecution and other consequences. I'll talk more about the admission criteria and who actually makes up this group of people. Okay, these are contact crimes admitted to before treatment. This is based on PSI information, based on psychological evaluation reports that we have received. This may also include information regarding self-report. So these are not just convictions for contact crimes. It may include self-disclosure to you as the PSI writer. After treatment, that means after they complete a victim list. This is self-report only. Very few of these people have been polygraphed. So child pornographers, people who are seen frequently by the court as not very dangerous offenders, actually this particular group had the highest number of contact crimes. 925 offenses, very significant. This was, I believe, a fluke. Had we had a higher number, and maybe there's some sampling error here, but I do expect, I would have expected this number to have been much higher than it was. From 42 to 228. And these are just three individuals admitting to contact crimes, and then that jumps to 30. Again, a total of 1,197. Okay, these are individuals of the sample of 63 in the total sample. There were a group of 32 individuals who had no, absolutely no contact crimes. So this is about, I would estimate, about 40% of our sample had no known history of contact crimes based on the PSI. Of this group, in this group there were 25 child pornographers. It's a very typical case. A person gets caught for trafficking, possessing, downloading child pornography. They don't have a criminal history.  A group of 25, five with the travel with intent, and two in the other category. These people admitted to committing 429 contact crimes. Now, what's different about this and the other data sets that I presented, the other data sets included non-contact sexual offenses, exhibitionism, voyeurism, frottage, and in other contact crimes. This is, in this particular data set, this only includes contact victims. These are actual people that were victimized by these alleged, not very dangerous offenders. So these people are quite busy. Again, the same data set. The largest representation is child pornographers and contact offenders. Most of these are Native Americans. Another graphic depiction of disclosures, an increase of 1,000, over 1,000%. Again, this is the overall number of 73 offenders. These are the child pornographers, contact crimes, the luring and travel with intent, and the other category. I hope you can take these slides and share them. I hope to soon publish these data. There is no data out in the field that supports what we have found. This is a unique program because we have a unique sample of sex offenders. There are a lot of people, so-called experts out there, offering their opinions about cyber sex criminals, and they know very little about what we're dealing with. They're offering opinions based on their gut feeling, their clinical impressions, and what they see as they see a highly educated man without a prior criminal history. There is a lot of similarity between the offender and everybody else in the criminal justice system, a person who's quite good and sophisticated about deceiving and manipulating others, and no criminal history. So the natural tendency would be for clinicians and others to form that opinion that these individuals are really not that dangerous, that somehow it's the internet's fault, or some devious child molester who was sending the child pornography, and these people were kind of helpless victims. What we discover is that some of these individuals may have pedophilic tendencies, and the internet is a viable mechanism or medium whereby they can further that interest, and then they get caught for it.  It's unfortunate at this point we don't have a classification system for child pornographers. I hope over time to develop one. My advice to you would be share this information. This is public information. There is nothing here that identifies identities. I am more than happy to talk to anyone who will listen to me. So, any other questions? What about people who are in the BOP for, say, a fraud conviction or drugs, but may have prior state convictions, child molestation? Are they eligible for this? I'm glad you raised that issue because it goes to what I'm going to talk about next. We have approximately, about six months ago, we had about 1,500, maybe 1,600 sex offenders who were serving time for a sexual offense in our system. So that's a little, slightly more than 1% of the entire population. We have about 130,000 inmates in our institutions. So it comprises about 1%.  The others, we refer to them by their public safety factor. And this is an assignment that inmates receive upon their initial custody and security classification. This enables us to identify them, flag them as sex offenders in our system. And yes, they are eligible to participate in the program even if they have had no sexual convictions.  I like to participate in your program. And in fact, we had one person like that, only one though. That's a very rare occurrence. And a few months ago, I didn't think that that was even possible. But this guy certainly disconfirmed that belief. They are eligible. And let me talk about those numbers.    It's a big population, but we don't know much about that population. We've been in the process of studying that population and developing specialized programs for them. And I'll talk more about that tomorrow. How many sex offenders do we have in the BLP?   Now these data are from February of this year and we had a total of 5,500 in some offenders in the sex offenders in the BLP. Now by region, you may know that the Bureau of Prisons is divided into six regions. We are in the Mid-Atlantic region. Now the number with the highest number of sex offenders is the North Central region, right here, 1362. Rate of increase. I've had brief conversations with some of you and you have certainly talked about the number of cases, the increase in the number of cases that you see through your districts. Well, we've also seen that. In fact, in the past two years, we've seen an increase of 45%. Only two years ago, our total number was about 3,800. We are probably, this is six months old, we're probably at about 6,000. So this number is increasing rapidly. Why is it? I think there are a lot of reasons for the increases. It has to do with special legislation and not legislation but funding for the prosecution of some of these crimes. I've heard of the FBI's Sting operation, the Innocent Images operation. That has produced a number of prosecutions and cases filed. We are becoming a nation that is increasingly literate of the internet and we're using the internet more and more. We have now mechanisms where people can police the internet and use these type of criminal activities through the internet and report it to a central location. This is called a cyber tip line. It's a congressional initiative. It's done through the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children along with FBI and other law enforcement agencies. It's a very important tool which has produced in only one year 460 arrests. This is from a little over 2,000 reports and these are citizens just like you and me who are on the internet and have come across this kind of garbage on the internet and do report it to the cyber tip line. That goes directly to law enforcement. Any questions? Let me open it up for maybe a 10-minute session of questions and then we'll break. Yes ma'am. You were saying that you encouraged the polygraph but then you said the 73 people you were talking about most of them hadn't had that. Do you use it on a regular basis here? We would like to use it on a regular basis. It took me almost a year, a year and a half to get it approved. Then it took me a while to find a vendor and then it got too expensive. So now I'm trying to recruit a psychologist from the northeast who is not only a good psychologist but a good plethysmography examiner but he's also a polygraph examiner. So as soon as I get him on board if he's willing to come we'll be doing a lot of polygraph examinations. Can you talk a little bit about what your opinion is that are the important variables that are getting these guys to disclose the information? I know the tool like sexual history questionnaire and the polygraph but what do you think is occurring in the offender's mind so that the disclosures are increasing as they go along in the treatment program? I guess that's a multifaceted process. It has to do first of all with their baseline motivation. By virtue of them participating and volunteering for the program there is some degree of motivation. They want to get better. Now for most of them if we just went on what their conviction was or what's on their record and we assume that that is what we're dealing with and we didn't actually delve into the sexual history and the victim list as much as we do they would probably be very fine with that. They wouldn't volunteer any additional information. For many of them it's very difficult to come to terms with their sexual offending history. They have a great deal of emotional energy invested in seeing themselves as not very dangerous. They have lied to their spouses, their children, their parents, their brother, sister, everyone about their criminal history and there is a lot at stake. Now what gets them to actually disclose and begin to talk about these issues? I think it has to do number one with the treatment community. We have systematically shaped a therapeutic community that is very powerful. It has a very powerful and insidious effect on disclosures. The predominant value in the program is honesty. So there is incredible peer pressure to come clean, put all the cards on the table. We do a great deal of motivational interventions. Tell them, look, unless you do this you're going to be continued to hide and maintain secrets and you're not going to get any better.  It's about a lifestyle, about a lifestyle of irresponsibility, a lifestyle of manipulation, deceit, a lifestyle of hedonism, a lifestyle of egocentrism and we try to impact their lives at that level as the context for therapeutic intervention, as the context for specific cognitive behavioral techniques, relapse prevention techniques, because without that context these interventions can get quickly lost. The peer pressure in a group setting is such that the offender will come in and say, yeah, I only did this. He's now 47 and they all look at one another and say, yeah, right, you've only done this once, you're not attracted to children, so there is pressure, systematic pressure. We also work with them individually as well as in the group setting to again motivate them. We're not looking for self-incriminating information and in fact when we've had them polygraphed I specifically have told the polygraph examiner do not elicit identifying information because that is not the purpose of treatment. The purpose of treatment is to assessment and treatment is to have an accurate account of what they've done. I'm more interested in finding out the full magnitude of their deviant sexual behavior than the identity of their victims. Now if it's a child victim I'm bound by law to report that to authorities and there have been two cases in which I have had to do that, call a law enforcement agency in the location, the jurisdiction where the offense occurred, where I have the identity of the victim and I have the location of the victim and I have made that call and the offender, the program participant has been fully aware of that. So there is an understanding that I'm going to be straight with them and they're going to be straight with me. I'm going to hold them accountable and I will not accept dishonesty and I will not accept deceit. Now I hope that gives you an idea of what is the climate in which treatment occurs. Sometimes I'd like to believe in my own narcissistic mind that I produce these changes but these people sometimes come to us ready to change and we are at the right time at the right place with the right people and expertise and we're able to capitalize on that. These people are not without serious reservations about reporting the full magnitude of their behavior. Based on criminal history based on the PSI these people may be very low risk offenders but gee after they report 93 victims and they report a predatory style of sex offending sometimes I think that they should be locked up forever. We still release them. Yes ma'am.  Do you think that you'll be moving in that direction at some point? At this point in time there is no talk about making the residential sex offender treatment program a mandatory component. There's been some discussion with myself and the psychology administrator for the Bureau of Prisons making having a similar model of treatment as the drug abuse programs. In other words developing what I would call a psychoeducational pretreatment module or class that would be mandatory. A type of program that is similar to the 40 hour drug and alcohol education class that we currently have and that have something similar for sex offenders. Now that has many implications in terms of cost in terms of identifying sites for that and we are at the preliminary stage but we are discussing it we certainly recognize the need to do more. Okay take a 15 minute break and we'll see you in a few. You heard Dr. Hernandez talk about presenting the sex offender treatment program study in November. Well that study has been presented and Dr. Hernandez provided us with an update of the data and analysis which is also available on the DCN. Now next we'll move into the specifics of the sex offender treatment program at Butler but like Dr. Hernandez just mentioned it's time for a short break so we'll be back in five minutes.


You need a financial advisor with the freedom to focus on your specific needs. Whatever your goals, Reid Potter can create a game plan tailored to you. Call Reid at 432-0777 at Pikeville, Kentucky to learn more. Saturday, May 21st, the 2nd annual Alex Polis Memorial Bike Ride will be held in Pikeville, Kentucky. All proceeds of the ride will go to Pikeville Trail Town Project in honor of Alex Polis. It's called the Alex Polis Memorial Ride. It's the second year we've had it. Alex Polis was a doctor in Pikeville at the hospital and he was tragically killed riding his bicycle a few years ago because he wasn't wearing his helmet, which he always did, but he forgot it that day and continued on. The ride will feature a variety of vendors and food and will have three separate rides for all levels of cyclists. There will also be a raffle for three new bikes. We've got a short five mile ride for beginners and families. It basically loops around the city of Pikeville. We have a 14 mile ride which loops around the city two times plus climbs Cedar Creek Hill. Not very difficult. And then the third ride is about 22 miles and it does three loops of the city plus Cedar Creek Hill plus the Bob Amos Hill up to the YMCA. The ride will begin at 9am, registration is $20 and will include a t-shirt. To register, go to Pro Fitness on Facebook or register the day of the event. For Mountain Top News, I'm Breanna Robinson.


I'd like to call to order the Sheboygan County Board of Supervisors meeting for Tuesday, April 18th, 2023. Are we certified in compliance with the open meeting law? Please join me in the Pledge of Allegiance. Next is roll call. Present. Next is the approval of the March 21, 2023 journal, Supervisor Brower. Thank you, Supervisor Brower. Supervisor Wagner. Thank you, Supervisor Wagner. Under discussion. Seeing none, please vote. Yes. Yes, Nelson. Consideration of appointments by a county administrator. We will take these by the committee they're being assigned to. So Health and Human Services Committee. Supervisor Gehring. Thank you, Supervisor Gehring. Supervisor Brower. Thank you, Supervisor Brower. Seeing none, please vote. Next is the public library board. Supervisor Henry Nelson. Thank you, Supervisor Nelson. Supervisor Gehring. Thank you, Supervisor Gehring. Under discussion. Supervisor Spout. Is there any other discussion? Seeing none, please vote. Next is the Recreational Facilities Management Advisory Committee. Supervisor Brower. Thank you, Supervisor Brower. Supervisor Gehring. Thank you, Supervisor Gehring. Under discussion. Seeing no discussion, please vote. And Transportation Coordinating Committee. Supervisor Wagner. Thank you, Supervisor Wagner. Supervisor Brower. Thank you, Supervisor Brower. Under any discussion? Seeing none, please vote. Next is presentations. Public addresses. Letters, communications, and announcements. The Administrators Report. Next is a consideration of committee reports. Executive Committee Resolution Number 33. Supervisor Gehring. Thank you, Supervisor Gehring. Supervisor Wagner. Thank you, Supervisor Wagner. Under discussion. Seeing no discussion, please vote. Resolution Number 34. Supervisor Clark. Thank you, Supervisor Clark. Supervisor Brower. Thank you, Supervisor Brower. Under discussion. Seeing no discussion, please vote. And then I'll hand the gavel over to the Vice-Chair. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Resolutions being introduced tonight. And ordinances being introduced tonight. Including our business tonight. Our implementation. Chairman Disturdey. And the second. Supervisor Clark. Thank you. All in favor, please vote. It is unanimous. We are adjourned. Thank you.


everybody. Good morning, and welcome to the 13th meeting of the criminal justice committee in 2024. We have no apologies this morning, and we are joined by Christine Grahame MSP. I welcome Christine Grahame to the meeting. Ireaming on business is consideration of the following negative instruments. The dangerous dogs compensate and exemption schemes Scotland order of 2024 and I refer members to paper one. Felly, rydw i'n gweithio i'r gweithio, Siobhan Brown, Minister for Victims and Community Safety, and Mr Jim Wilson, the licensing team leader of the criminal justice division at the Scottish Government. I remind everyone present that we have already discussed the principles of the approach that is being followed by the Scottish Government in relation to exiled bully dogs on 21 February. The session should therefore be on the detail of the compensation and exemption scheme set out in the SSI that we are considering today. I invite the minister to speak to the SSI minister. Good morning, convener, and good morning, committee. I welcome the opportunity to give evidence to the committee on this secondary legislation. As the committee is aware, the Scottish Government is taking a two-stage approach for new safeguards in relation to exiled bully dogs. The order that the committee is considering today is a second of two separate pieces of secondary legislation on exiled bully dogs. Committee members will recall that I appeared before the committee on 21 February to give evidence on the first piece of secondary legislation, the dangerous dog designated Types Scotland order 2024. The first stage of the new rules as set out in the first order subsequently came into force on 23 February 2024. This means that exiled bully owners must now ensure that their dogs are muzzled and on a lead when in a public place. Breeding, selling, gifting or exchanging exiled bully dogs is also now prohibited. I would stress however that it remains entirely legal to own an exiled bully dog. This second order that we are discussing today establishes the exemption process for owners and rehoming centres who wish to keep their dogs and adhere to the new safeguards for the long term beyond 31 July 2024. The order also provides for a compensation scheme for those exiled bully owners who unfortunately decide not to keep their dogs. In addition, the order ensures that the historic need for tattooing is not needed as a means of identifying dogs where an exemption is sought. Owners of exiled bully type dogs will have from 1 April 2024 to 31 July 2024 to seek exemption for their dogs from the Scottish Government. From 1 August 2024 it will be an offence to own an exiled bully dog without an exemption or without having applied for an exemption. Let me be clear. Any responsible exiled bully dog owner who wishes to keep their dog can do so. What they need to do is to seek an exemption and agree to adhere to the exemption conditions. As we approach the go live date of 1 April for the exemption and compensation schemes, I advise that full details will be published on the Scottish Government and mygov.scot websites on the first date when applications can be submitted. We do not want to publish this before then just to avoid any early applications that would then become invalid. We understand the concerns expressed by dog owners about the impact that these new controls may have on dogs. I can assure the committee that the Scottish Government takes animal welfare very seriously and it is committed to the highest possible welfare standards. My officials consulted with various stakeholders, including welfare organisations throughout the development of the new safeguards, which are part of the signing up to the exemption. I have also committed to regular monthly engagements with dog control coalition, which members include the Scottish SPCA, the Dogs Trust and the British Veterinary Association to ensure that everything is being done to implement the new safeguards in the best possible way. My officials also meet with the dog control coalition on a weekly basis and also meet with COSLA, Police Scotland and the local authorities on a fortnightly basis through the Scottish Government-led Implementation Forum. I'll end my remarks there, convener, and I'm happy to answer any questions that the committee may have. Okay, thank you very much minister. We'll now just move straight to questions and invite members to come in if they wish to ask any questions. I think that maybe the minister has already answered my question when she was doing her opening statement there. It was actually on exemptions and how you would be granted the certificate. My questions are originally where will the Scottish Government be publishing exemption information soon to maximise the amount of time dog owners have to apply for an exemption and consider their next steps, under what circumstances will the Scottish Government grant a certificate of exemption and what information is required. When you did your opening statement there you actually said anyone who wants to keep their Excel bully can do so. Is it just a formality or will there be people who will not be allowed to keep an Excel bully? Is it the dog or the person? Anybody that has an Excel bully that wants to keep their dog, and as I said previously, when I was at committee I think there was 61,000 that applied in England and Wales and only 200 decided not to keep their dog. So vast majority of dog owners, responsible dog owners want to keep their dog. So if you've got an Excel bully dog and you want to keep it, you just have to apply for an exemption. So on the website we'll go live on the 1st of April and it's very, very clear and I know there's also going to be a video that will be going out on social media that shows the process. So it's very user friendly. So you said a bit responsible dog owners there. Is there any circumstances that you can think of where somebody wouldn't be given an exemption? Not that I'm aware of. No. And Mr Jim, have you, is it that in England and Wales? I mean the vast majority of applications that have been granted through DEFRA for applications have come in have been approved with no issues. I think the challenges that DEFRA officials have had is that sometimes relevant information is not being provided. So, for example, confirmation that an insurance policy has been taken out might be an issue in terms of the certificate of exemption not being granted immediately and I'm aware that in relation to outstanding applications in England and Wales, like I said at the first evidence session on the first SSI, there are a number of cases where there's a backlog that's going to be built up that UK Government officials are still working through. Their controls came into full play on the 1st of February, so it's just to give a flavour of some of the challenges that UK Government are experiencing in relation to exemption applications. As the minister said, there is a number of requirements that need to be complied with or very quickly run through them, but ultimately the certificate of exemption requirements and this information will be on the Scottish Government channels insist that or insurers should say that the owner has to keep the dog at the same address as the certificate holder except for a maximum of 30 days, notify any change of address, including changes within a 30-day period, notify if the dog's death maintains suitable for party insurance for the lifetime of the dog and ensure that the dog is muzzled on a lead in a public place and keep the dog in sufficiently secure conditions to prevent the dog's escape and provide access for reading of the dog's microchip upon request by a police officer or authorised local authority officer. We expect that owners will comply with those conditions, but there may be some queries that might need to be investigated further if there are any gaps in terms of what the requirements actually are, but so far vast majority of applications that were issued in England and Wales were as a result of application forms being completed on time and correctly. Do we know how much the insurance will cost for the dog owners? The information that we are going to put on the Scottish Government website in my give points towards the option for owners to consider is the Dog Trust companion club, which charges £25, £12.50 if the person applying is over the age of 60. We are not saying that owners have to use the Dog Trust companion club and they may obviously have insurance already, so they have the opportunity to consider an insurance policy that is right for them, but we felt that the fairly modest cost in terms of the insurance cover that was offered by Dog Trust was worthy of promotion. The final question was that the financial memorandum does not have any money along with it, so who is going to administer the scheme and if there are any issues, will it be the police that are investigating it, or are we going to invest more money in dog wardens? The Scottish Government is going to be running the scheme off the exemption. We are in close contact with Police Scotland and local authorities in Cosra regarding any costs that might be considered, and they are getting back to us regarding that. The Scottish Government is running the scheme, not Police Scotland. I am interested to know whether there are any cross-border issues that still have to be ironed out, or are there any concerns with that? Thank you for the question. There is no current issue in Scotland in this regard. That is because, up until 31 July 2024, Excel bully owners moving to Scotland from England and Wales can continue to bring their dog with them and they can seek an exemption under the Scottish scheme. However, that will change. As the law currently stands, if this SSI is not annulled, such owners will not be able to live in Scotland and legally own their Excel bully dog from 1 August 2024, when the new safeguards are fully in place in Scotland. The position in England and Wales is different as a safeguards regime is fully in place and has been since 1 February 2024. A person from Scotland or any other country since has no longer been able to take their Excel bully dog down to England and Wales. There is no ability down there to seek an exemption for their Excel bully dogs. Within that context, on 8 March, I wrote to the UK Government Minister for Biosecurity, Animal Health and Welfare, Mr Douglas Miller, to raise the issue of cross-border movement on Excel bully dogs within the nation of the Inner Kingdom. To date, I have not received a response, but during engagement with DEFRA officials and representatives from devolved administrations, the Scottish Government has previously raised the issue of the validility of the exemption certificates when an owner of an Excel bully dog who lives in Scotland then moves to England and Wales for work or for any other reason. It is important to ensure that law-abiding citizens and dogs who have complied with all their requirements to legally retain their dogs as a consequence of the new safeguards that have come into place are not unduly affected by the exemption regime rules when they wish to move to Scotland or Wales or vice versa. I am keen to work with the UK Government to look at collectively addressing the issue in a consistent and fair way and to avoid a situation where the owner would be required to dispose of their dog or run the risk of being criminalised for the events of being in possession of an Excel bully dog without an exemption. It is on-going, but it is one of the issues again when the legislation came in and unintended consequences that were not brought out that we are raising with the UK Government. I hope that they will be in contact and we will resolve this issue. Good morning. I actually think that you have answered most of the questions that I had in relation to the exemption, but I think that that is probably well covered. The dog owner can go on holiday up to 30 days in a 12-month period, so that makes sense. The principles behind the legislation, as you said, minister, are prohibition on the breeding and the selling of Excel bully dogs. Is the thinking that eventually there would not be any owners in Scotland of an Excel bully dog? That would be the intention of the discussion. I think that the question that was put last time to you, I am sure that Christine Grahame might have asked the same question, but I was interested in asking the same question, so that is the principle, but the breeders of Excel bully dogs might just breed those dogs slightly smaller within the definition, so would you have to come back then or reconsider the framing of the legislation at that point? I think that I said to the First Committee as well that we are in this position that we never wanted to be in, and I don't ever want us to be in this position again moving forward with another breed. As we deal with the Excel bully dog situation, I am considering what needs to be done through legislation that we are not in this position, because the Scottish Government, as we know it, is indeed not breed. I know that we are diverging away from it in this particular case, but it is something that we did not want to do. I would not want to be in a position moving forward in six months' time or a year's time that there is another breed and we are doing this again. There has been some pretty horrible incidents of attacks, and one thing that was mentioned at the last committee, the last time I checked, I still haven't identified the breed of the dog, and it may not be possible to identify the breed of the dog. I suppose that you might be giving me the same answer that you did there, but it just seems that if the intention is to capture a breed of dog, that seems to be more prone to attacking, and so you are trying to end the existence of that breed. However, in some of the high-profile incidents, we have not established that it is an exiled bully dog, and I wonder if you have given any thought to that. Even when we started these conversations with stakeholders back in October last year, that was one of their main concerns that they were highlighting to me as we move forward with the definition, and as you know in the presence of exiled bully dog type, there is the definition as such. Although there is, as we know, the UK Government did put a definition on their website, which is where people have to go to define it. They have got the height and the width of the body and things like that that they can determine whether or not to put the exiled bully dogs, but for the normal Joe Blow in the street, it might be very difficult to know. Does that mean that, in some cases, there is just no way of knowing? I don't know if there are any tests. Forgive me for laggons. I do know maybe about a DNA test that I did hear about, but I am not sure that it is viable for every exiled bully owner to be doing it. Just to stress that, ultimately, the exemption process is owner-led, so they have to then obviously look at the confirmation standard that is already published on the Scottish Government website. There will be cases, through my direct conversations with animal welfare stakeholders, around—in some cases, there might be an uncertainty as to whether the actual dog in question could be a suspected exiled bully type dog. They have not frequently, but on occasion, brought in subject matter experts to do an assessment. The cost of that assessment would be £250 to £300, so it is a one-off assessment. I suppose that learning from the approach in England and Wales, where, again, it is a owner-led process, the position that we have adopted is to ensure that it is a precautionary approach. One of the key characteristics of the confirmation standard is that, around the height of the dog, so 20 inches if it is for a male, 51 centimetres, 19 inches for a female at 48, if the dog does not meet the minimum height requirement, there is no assessment that is required. However, from my personal experience, when I have spent time with local authority dog warrants and police, I have seen a vet undertake an assessment of—it was not an exiled bully dog, it was an alleged pit bull type. Of course, they have just gone through a whole series of checks, but ministers are right that there might be some testing that could be done to try and determine the type. It is not a recognised breed of dog, and we recognise that it is challenging. I can just ask members to confine questions to the SSI being considered today. I know that there are a lot of elements to this issue, but just in the spirit of time. I have a couple of questions today that come from the Blue Cross briefing. Pauline McNeill has already raised one issue that the briefing outlined, and that was in relation to the definition, so I will not ask about that. The two areas that I want to ask about are the veterinary sector, if those who do not apply for an exemption minister are confident that the capacity is there to perform the new training. Have you had a think about the impact that this might have on vets and their staff in relation to what might be a healthy dog? The British Veterinary Association is members of the dog control coalition. I have been meeting them regularly since last October. One of the things is that, as we meet them, we are listening to the concerns. That specifically has not been raised at those concerns about capacity or breaking point, but there are several issues that have been raised with ourselves. We are working with the coalition as we move forward through the implementation group as well. A final question, minister. It is on a similar theme for those who do not seek the exemption and maybe look at the rehoming options. What indication do you get there about the challenges that kennels are facing in terms of capacity, such as, for example, Bedley Gardens in my constituency, that I mentioned last time? Is there any additional support that can be offered to those organisations going forward? Unfortunately, you cannot rehome after this stage, after the 23rd of February, but I know that, regarding kenneling, that has been raised with my officials and the meetings that I have attended. I know that my officials, as well as the implementation group that has been set up with Police Scotland and local authorities, have set up a working group so that we can work closely with organisations such as yours in your constituency to learn about all the issues and see how we can work together moving forward. They will be able to highlight any issues that they face as we move forward with the legislation. A very quick question. It does not relate specifically to SSI, but it relates to something that the minister said in her evidence that she believes in that, not breed yet, legislation is breed specific. I think that this is causing people some confusion as to how you can hold to opposing opinions at the same time, which is your position. My position is that, as a Scottish Government, it is the deed, not the breed, as Mr Finlay is well aware that we are in this position because this legislation was announced last September with no notice of the Scottish Government. If these dogs are not inherently a problem, what problem would it be if they are coming to Scotland if it is not an issue of breed? I personally believe that it is up to the owners to be responsible owners. You do not believe in this legislation. I do believe in this legislation because we are having to move forward as you were highlighting last year that the Scottish Government should be moving forward. Yes, we believe in it and we support the legislation, but a few things are deed, not breed. John Swinney is trying to interrupt me here if I could just ask the minister a question. It is really not John Swinney's role as the convener of this committee. Members, if you can finish asking your question, and then we will move on. Yes, but this is directly relating to the evidence that the minister already gave and it is pertinent to the entire reason why we are sitting here talking about this. As I said, in this circumstance we are deviating away from that a bit under the position that we have found ourselves in from the UK bringing in this rushed legislation, but moving forward the Scottish Government will still commit to deed, not breed. Minister, I wonder if I can just come in with a question. Obviously, I know that you are very well aware that a number of owners of Excell Bully Dogs and others have expressed concern about the legislation, how it will work in practice and a particular focus has been the welfare of animals. It seems to me that the SSIs and how the new policies work out in practice could potentially be considered by the Government consulting with others in a couple of years' time, so in other words, looking at some close legislative review of the legislation, is that something that the Scottish Government would be willing to consider moving forward? Yes. We have found ourselves in a position that we never wanted to be in and I think that it has highlighted what we have gone through in the last couple of months. It is a very emotive issue and I know that there are very polarised opinions on this. As I have already reiterated, we do not want to be in this position and again, to do that, I think that we really need to look at legislation moving forward and reform. Thank you, that is helpful. Okay, can I maybe ask if Christine Grahame would like to come in? I am not going to ask a question and do you wish me to proceed with my question? That is fine, thank you. Any other members want to speak? Sorry, yes. Mr Doris. I had some specific questions that I wanted to cut across to Ms Grahame. Okay, dangerous thing, but never mind. I have always had the opportunity to ask a question. So just to confirm then, Christine Grahame, would you like to ask any questions at this point? No, I am not going to ask questions. I am just going to submit. Well Doris, would you like to ask anything? I formally apologise for being late to the committee before the family circumstances. My apologies to everyone present. Also apologies if there is a degree of duplication. I hope that there is not a clear list. I wanted to ask about exemptions. So within the statutory instrument that there are some exemptions, so if I have understood it correctly minister, so if someone passes away, a certificate of exemption can be transferred under certain circumstances and there is still a re-homing exemption for puppies up to 31 July. So the Government has conceded that there are certain circumstances where exemptions can be brought in. I know we had a constructive meeting, even if it was ultimately not fruitful for myself minister. Can you just put on record why the minister believes it wasn't possible to bring in an exemption for if someone moves house through no fault of their own and is restrictive as to whether they can have any pet or any dog whatsoever. So it's not even specific to Excel bullies. They're not able to gift or transfer a certificate of exemption to another individual, which I think is pretty unfair. What is the Government's position in relation to that? Yes, thanks minister. We've discussed this at length. I think one of the things was that the unintended consequences was if somebody died. So that wasn't in the legislation in the 31st of January in England or Wales. So that was something that has come in later that we've been able to pick up on moving forward to include in our legislation. And as there are a few things as we go through this process that have been highlighted and this is one of them. My understanding specifically for that with the Dangerous Dogs Act is to legislate that you would need primary legislation, not through secondary legislation, but maybe Jim can just go about that. Thank you, Mr Doris for the question. I've just reflected on recent discussions that we've had around two issues. One is in relation to the challenges that potentially may have been faced. And I appreciate that you've been able to provide an example of a concern around housing and what that might mean for exo-billy dog owners. But we did actually put out some target communication to a range of social housing organisations and a couple of private housing organisations just to stress how the new safeguards would actually work in practice. And ultimately, we recognise that owners will have to comply with the exemption requirements. If they're following the process, they will be law-abiding. There are no issues in terms of they're not going to break in any rules under the 1991 legislation. So far, the communication that we sent out a few weeks ago, I've not received anything that's not in concerns from any actual individual members on the relation to housing, but I recognise that there may be certain, in certain cases, owners of exo-billy dogs that might be a little bit worried because they're not sure how their tenancy agreement might be impacted upon. But that boils down to the challenges around policies that are being set by housing association in relation to animals. And there may be some cases where they might have a policy that a tenant might not be allowed to have any type of dog, cat, whatever. So on the housing point, just to stress, we have contacted a number of organisations to set out how the new safeguards will work in practice. But in relation to the point around the challenges of somebody becoming seriously unwell in its over a 30-day period, there is no legislative powers available to address that through secondary regulations. So that would actually require a need to do it through primary legislation. I have raised the issue with the UK Government as well to try and get a sense of, well, is it a big issue? They have a small number of cases where there has been concerns about so what does this really mean if somebody is simply unable to look after the dog? So, again, we need to be mindful that this is policy that's being developed at rapid pace. There are some unintended consequences that we're having to grapple with going forward. But, yeah, Mr Doris, you raised a really good point in relation to housing and the issue around kind of long-term illness as well. Well, I wish we were in this position minister. I think you're confirming that even if the policy of the Scottish Government was to move further, we're further exemptions that require primary legislation. So it wouldn't be possible anyway using this mechanism. Can I therefore ask the minister if there was a suitable legislative vehicle going through the Parliament? I would imagine that this would be a relatively simple boat on to another piece of legislation just to give the provisions under secondary legislation to go back and review exemptions. If such a vehicle was to come through the Parliament, is that something that the Scottish Government would consider? That is where I do think there is a need for reform and dog legislation. So, yes, everything would be considered moving forward. Both the short-term and the long-term reforms. Yes, we could look at that. One final question. So compensation is available to exiled bully dog owners, but there's a cut-off deadline I think of the 30th of September. If an exiled bully dog owner wasn't able to look after their dog for any reason after that point and had complied with the legislation and did have the exemption forum, should they not have been taken to compensation after that date? I think at the moment because the legislation is just new, I don't even think we're in that circumstance in England and Wales yet. I don't know if that's been considered or raised at the working group with deaf profit. It's certainly something hard to pick up. The UK Government officials whenever, obviously, about exemption scheme is not opened yet but will go live on the 1st of April. The reason to allow people the chance to have that window of opportunity, if I can call it that, to consider whether they might want to pursue compensation was done to ensure that people have adequate time to make that very, very difficult decision. So theoretically, if someone in October has their exemption certificate and has to give up their dog for whatever reason through no fault of their own, right now they would not qualify for compensation with the Government's open-minded to perhaps reviewing that. We can look into it most definitely. Okay, thank you very much indeed. So I think that completes our evidence-taking on the SSI. So we'll move on and our next item of business is to consider a motion to annul the dangerous dogs compensation and exemption schemes Scotland order of 2024. So a motion to annul has been lodged in the name of Christine Graham and having had the opportunity now to question the minister on this SSI. I'm now going to invite the committee to dispose of the motion to annul. So can I invite Christine Graham to move motion number S6M-12516 in her name and make any brief additional comments she wishes to make? I've been deleting like mad so that I can try to get what I want to say and thank you very much convener. I speak to and move the motion referred to in my name and also put in the record that I think the minister has been put in an invidious position notwithstanding that. I think it's my duty as a parliamentarian to indicate where I have grave concerns about the quality of this legislation. So I think it's important to consider the consequences to date of the XL bully type regulations on this particular instance, the compensation exemption schemes as impacted in England and Wales because we can see what's happened. Since the start of this on ban on XL bully type dogs, there have been 55,000 registers according to DEFRA and 61,000 applications. That gives you an idea of the size of the issue. Now, I accept these numbers are staggering and as a result of some horrendous attacks, though fewer number, 55,000 dogs plus will be neutered, muzzled and some put down. To date, 300 have been put down. These were not dogs that were subject to any criminal proceedings. These would be healthy dogs that were put down. And the distress to owners is considerable. DEFRA has suggested a deregistration scheme. That is because we've heard issues about the definition ably described by Pauline McNeill about if your dog is just an inch shorter than the 20 inches for a male XL bully type dog. It doesn't comply. And it's the owner that has to do all the work, nobody else. So DEFRA is suggesting a deregistration scheme but they haven't actually said how and when it will work.  It may be muzzled for months. So this is the clumsiness of this legislation. As I said, the onus is on the owner and they're searching online for cac cane corsoes, rupvillers, German shepherds, stafager and even jacked rustles to try and work out what they have. Is their dog, have their dog to comply? Now the BVA made it plain to DEFRA last November and I quote, we are extremely concerned by DEFRA's assertion that there is sufficient veterinary capacity to effectively manage the ban. And further, it is also vital that additional support is provided to owners to help them type their dog. They also ask for an extension of the neutering deadline which they've been granted. So there's huge concerns about animal welfare from DEFRA itself which compiled the definition which I hope you've read because it goes to many paragraphs. I thought I'd quote from a dog owner. I believe I've lost all my rights to make appropriate welfare choices for my dog to treat his chronic stress. He's lost his freedom simply because he's two inches taller than another dog and any day of the week the police might knock on my door to arrest me if I choose to meet my dog's basic welfare needs in a completely safe way. I'd be facing six months in prison simply for meeting my dog's needs without risk to anyone. I've agreed today with my local police officers and in consultation an agreement with my vet that should at any point a warrant be issued to seize my dog the vet will attend and euthanise the dog rather than allow him to be seized. He's lost five kilograms just having to wear a muzzle for two hours a day. Can you imagine the stress levels for nine months in police kennels? That would simply be a life which was not worth living in terms of his welfare. This is a dog that's not been a problem. Like tens of thousands in England and thousands in Scotland. Further on I quote the minister from a meeting on 21 February. Selling and gifting this was the first regulation Selling, gifting and exchanging an XL bully dog will be prohibited and the loophole will be removed. I focus on loophole. My question is if the loophole is closed because they thought to be an invasion of thousands of XL-type bullies to Scotland why we proceeding with the second phase given the small number causing concern as opposed the large number of which we estimate Scotland to be over 5,000 plus and the draconian restriction being put upon them and their owners. I quote from Fulton MacGregor at the last meeting. I think this is a very bad legislation from the UK Government. Further quote the experts in this field clearly and consistently tell us that this legislation is bad has a high risk of not working is a knee jerk and is ill thought out and the minister the definition that was determined by Beffra is that the male has to be 20 inches in height the female to be 19 inches. Therefore an XL bully that was 16 or 17 inches would not have to wear a muzzle and lead. I mean this is nonsense this is complete nonsense I'll be very brief but I think it's important to put this in the record because Parliament's not getting to discuss this. Another point to be made about the dangerous dogs act it doesn't apply in the private residence many attacks take place in a garden or in a home this does not apply whereas the control of dogs act does and Jim Wilson said at the same meeting last of the dangerous dogs act it has many opponents and continues we are seriously considering their opportunity to strengthen in their hands the control of dogs Scotland Act 2010 and further he said in the engagement that we've had with animal welfare stakeholders they have quite fairly raised a number of concerns about the ethical and practical concerns that vets are facing in certain cases they are dealing with dogs that they might need to be perfectly well behaved not aggressive and perfectly healthy I appreciate the numbers are not huge but a high number of dogs are nonetheless being euthanised so this committee if it agrees to this is saying we in some will be saying that it's not all of you this is not good law but nevertheless we'll push it through dogs that may or may not be ex-elbuli types that an owner has to decide will be made neutral they will be and they may be euthanised and the government will pay for that this is just wrong I take Russell Finlay on I quote Russell Finlay quote I believe that legislation is needed and urgently because we need to address the risk to public safety we all agree that we need to address that where we disagree is on how we do that in the past four weeks police scotland officers have had to shoot dead two dogs in the street both of which and I underline this Mr Finlay which may or may not have been ex-elbulis I know that there is an issue with definition but if members look at the bully walks UK material which widely available they will see a lot of it goes some way towards explaining that but that Mr Finlay is the problem two dogs thousands of dogs in Scotland may or may not have been ex-elbulis as was raised by Pauline McNeill so this is the problem when you tackle a breed or a breed type and not the actions of the owner in control of the dog so minister you had the opportunity to pursue the second you had the opportunity not to pursue the second second regulations the loophole has been closed and I cannot accept that we proceed to this and I can say convener in conclusion I wasn't going to press the motion because I know that the committee is going to vote for this I know that I'm saying something and even though you've got reservations this will be pushed through but we have an obligation we have an obligation as parliamentarians we were able to vote on legislation and I don't think it should be taken lightly and that's why I'm pressing this just when every member of this committee who agrees to this do will have their name beside what I call absolutely poor legislation demonising owners and leading to misery for many dogs I press thank you very much indeed for that comprehensive overview okay can I ask if any other members would like to come in Russell Findlay yeah thank you I just think I should come in because Christine Grahame quoted me directly it wasn't clear from exactly where the quote ended but I didn't that was an entire quote I didn't truncate it well indeed but I there was no sort of obvious end quote in the telling of it I'm looking I'll amend that for you no just I genuinely didn't know where it was because the they will see a lot of it goes some way towards explaining that closed quotes right and this was from the previous getting in here it's from the OR the record I'm looking at the transcript I'm looking at differs somewhat and I want to just to question that no sorry Mr Findlay that's from the official report right well I would need to just go back and compare and contrast the two things but the point is you know we believe this legislation is necessary because public safety is paramount these dogs are maiming and killing people across the UK including in Scotland and that's why it's so important that can I respond to that please okay I'll bring you back in okay you say these dogs which are these dogs are they excel bully types or not I mean you don't know I'm looking to the convener to see if we're allowed to have a so of a whole debate about the issue of the subject to suspect we might not be well we're at the point that that we are probably more or less in debate so I'm happy to invite members to come in but I don't want I would like to avoid this just being a ping-pong discussion about what's in the official report so if and again we are here to discuss the specific SSI around exemptions and compensations indeed and with that in mind if we can confine our remarks to that that would be appreciated I won't pursue the generalities but then I'm also worth pointing out that as a committee are absolute we've got this pressing need to deal with the stage 1 report in respect of the victim film so thank you thank you Pauline McNeill I just wanted to say in part response to Christine Grahame that where I think well absolutely right that unfortunately there are some procedures in this parliament that are not satisfactory and this is one of them I would have preferred the other members had to say in this but this is the process that we as members just have to take responsibility for I do agree with Russell Finlay I think it's a difficult I think it's been a difficult one because we've had to come to quite a quick conclusion based on the issue of public safety where it was reported widely initially when we started this process that the dogs concerned were Excel bully types what has transpired and we still don't know the conclusion of some of these cases is to whether they are or whether they're not so I think your right to raise all these points and it has made me slightly nervous but I do think that the committee don't really have much of a choice because I do think that there is a loophole I suppose that what the minister is saying and you may be proven right in time and that is that it's all very well that there's a loophole but if the founding legislation in the first place isn't quite what it should be then we are building on legislation that might be flawed but we are not in a position to know that right now and I think that's unfortunate difficult position that we are in that we just have to make a decision today but I just wanted to respond particularly on the point of scrutiny Christine, I've felt that about a number of areas in the panel where they're so substantial actually that they are not really suitable for SSIs but we're kind of stuck with the process that was decided some time ago not by us thank you very much thank you any other members like to come in briefly Shandhoughie so just one final point it's really just a concern as opposed to a question my concern would be the again going back to the exemption certificate so I take the point on it's deed not breed we're talking about whether we've got responsible dog owners but I would have a concern that when I asked is there any circumstances where you would see that somebody wouldn't get an exemption it's more that if we've got somebody just now who's maybe got a criminal record or we don't think that they're capable of looking after a dog especially that type of dog why would we go and grant them an exemption certificate to actually allow them to keep the dog so that would be one safety concern I would have with it just seems a formality that people get an exemption certificate there may be people who whether it be dog wardens police neighbours would currently think that person should not have a dog there's maybe concerns about how they control the dog and we just seem it seems to me where the current legislation will be allowing them to have an exemption certificate and keep the dog Justine Ms Stowe raises a valid point from you'll know that what we have done is replicated what the UK government did implement back at the end of January and I don't think there was any provision for vetting as such dog owners applying for exemption certificates but then going back to the whole point that I keep reiterating is this is the need for like a review of dog legislation moving forward because there are some irresponsible dog owners out there that shouldn't be dog owners Okay, thank you Okay, if no other members want to come in I'll just come back to the minister actually just to ask if you would like to make any further remarks Yes and I think Christine Grahame and I know that she's very passionate about this issue and I think it just shows how polarised the views are regarding the cross between animal welfare and community safety on this particular issue and I know as I've just said to Mrs Dowey it just keeps confirming to me that we really need to be reviewing dog legislation moving forward and I know initially the first bit of that we'll be looking at the dog control Scotland act that was Christine Grahame's initially that she bought to Parliament and I am very keen to work with Christine Grahame and any other member here that wishes to be part of that moving forward Thank you, convener Thank you minister Can I therefore invite Christine Grahame to indicate whether you'd like to press or draw I'm definitely pressing I want to have members accountable for their votes Okay, thank you very much So the question is that the criminal justice committee recommends that the motion to annull the dangerous dogs compensation and exemption schemes Scotland order be agreed Are we all agreed? No Okay, we're not agreed so we will move to a vote So can I ask those in favour of annulling to raise their hands? Thank you Against annulling? Okay, I don't think there are any abstentions Okay, thank you members so there are no votes for annulling there are eight votes against annulling there are no abstentions and therefore the motion is not agreed Okay, so thank you very much that completes our deliberation of the SSI and it completes our business in public this morning I thank everyone for their attendance and we now move into private session Thank you


So this week the Hawaii National Guard surf key has been conducting hurricane response training for wide area search using the joint hazard assessment team concept. And what we were able to do is get together the Hawaii surf key, Nevada surf key, as well as California surf key to form a small group to kind of test and evaluate work through tactics, techniques, and procedures for hurricane response using Cree assets but in a small teams format. This type of training is important for the National Guard response to support our National Guard civil support duties. What we're doing is showcasing how Cree that's National Guard Bureau's Seaburn Response Enterprise assets can be utilized in a small teams format vice having to deploy the whole team essentially showcasing the modularity of the Seaburn Seaburn Response capability within the National Guard. We're leveraging existing capabilities within the Cree Seaburn Response Enterprise, which is our extractors, the rescue elements, medical as well as hazmat capabilities. But the way we're pushing the envelope and kind of using a novel employment is the J-Hack concept where we're bringing together multiple resources, multiple technical specialties. So we're really emphasizing bringing together the extraction, rescue, medical, seaburn, hazmat, as well as with first responders to increase interoperability. Over the course of three days, we've had nine lanes training events that span from collapse structure with hazmat, both ticks and Tim's chemicals as well as radiological, to rollover car accidents involving flammable compounds, and then all the way through a wide area search of a large area where we have a mass casualty event of over 40 personnel that had to be searched, found, extracted, and then medically managed. I think the National Guard as a whole over several years is finding more and more the need or the demand signal from first responders and our civilian entities. And this is just another way that we're trying to meet and answer that call and identify capability gaps and better support our community and first responders.


Proudly, we hail. From New York City, where the American stage begins, here is another program with a cast of outstanding players. Public service time has been made available by this station for your Army and your Air Force to bring you this story. As proudly we hail, the Women's Army Corps. Our story is entitled, Operation Rescue, a true story of WAC Sergeant Margaret Millen, who served with the American forces in Europe. Our first act curtain will rise in just a moment, but first... Here's a most important message for young women listening to this radio program. If you were between the ages of 18 and 34 and qualify, you can prove that this is a woman's world too. How? By enlisting in the WAC, women in the Air Force. By joining right now when you're needed most and when the opportunities for advancement are greatest, you will be serving your country well and yourself too. You will have opportunities for some of the finest technical training in the world, training which will serve you well should you elect to return to civilian life.  Do your part in keeping America strong. Visit your local United States Army and United States Air Force recruiting station and enlist in the WAC, Women in the Air Force. Do it now. And now your Army and your Air Force present the proudly we hail production, Operation Rescue. The scene, Frankfurt, Germany in the fall of the year 1946. The place, switchboard room in headquarters building of the United States Army. The time, a little before dawn. Frankfurt military post. Oh, no, sir, I'm sorry. Nothing's come in no word at all. Yes, sir, as soon as I hear anything. Yes, sir. Marge, you've got to get some sleep. You can't keep on like this. No one can. You must get some sleep. Oh, I'm all right, Betty. You haven't been to bed in almost 36 hours and you've had nothing to eat. There's coffee and sandwiches. Marge, look, I'll tell Captain Farnham. Betty, get me some coffee. But Marge... Betty, please, I'm too tired to argue with you two. Oh, just get me a cup of coffee, please, huh? Sure. Sure, Marge, coffee. And Betty? Yeah? One sugar, no cream. One sugar, no cream. No, Helen, nothing so far. I got on the radio that they'd spotted something at beach near the French border. Stop listening to rumors. What does Marge say? One sugar, no cream. I don't get it. That's what she said, coffee, one sugar, no cream. She wants something. Well, I'll go with you. If you like. Won't do any good though. When Marge gets some news, she'll let us know. All of us. Yeah. If she gets some news. Coffee, one sugar, no cream. You like to that way at home too, remember? Remember back across how many switchboards and transports and trains? Remember your home? Remember? I suppose no one likes to leave home. Especially a home like mine in Hazelton. Hazelton, that's in Pennsylvania. My mom and my dad had both come from good-sized families. Ours was pretty big too. Five brothers. Four that were grown up like me. And then there was little Bobby. Bobby was too young to know what was going on when America entered the Second World War. I had two sisters too. Betty and Anna Marie. They were both younger than me. The war to them was just big headlines in the newspapers. The war to them was things they wanted and things they couldn't have, but the war to me was something very serious. And it was serious to two of my brothers, August and Joe. On December 7, 1941, they enlisted immediately in the United States Army. I wanted so badly to be of some use too. And so I thought at the time that the very best place for me was in an airplane factory. Oh, it was a huge place. Blocks and blocks long. You became a part of the plur and the rumble. Part of the movement of the giant machines. You were a card which was punched in the morning and then it quit in time. You were Margaret Millan on that card, but of course everyone called you Marge. You know, Mike, sometimes I wish I was doing something more than working in a defense plant. Sometimes I wish... Yes, Liz. Oh, never mind. Say, Marge, should I have a date with George tonight? He wants I should have a date with him, but I don't really know him. I mean, real good boys. What do you think about him, Liz? Seems all right. A girl can't be too choosy. Liz had a big heart, but she had a one-track mind, too. And that was about men. Thinking about the way she said... Girl can't be too choosy. I thought about it in a much different way. I thought about it all that day and it kept running through my mind as I rode the bus into New York on Saturday afternoon to do some shopping. A girl can't be too choosy. I wanted to be very choosy. I wanted to make the best choice in deciding how to help my country during the war. I wanted to make a choice which would help me, too, in the years ahead. A choice which made a solid and fine career. The lights bubbled gaily over and around Times Square that evening. I stood watching them knowing I had a decision to make. Working at the airplane factory wasn't enough. I wanted to do more. I had to do more. The choice was up to me. Excuse me, Miss, but could you tell me how I get to Radio City Music Hall? I'm sorry. What did you say? Oh, excuse me, Miss. Oh, no. No way. Please. It's just that I didn't hear what you asked me. Well, I have a ticket for the Radio City Music Hall. I don't know where it is. Well, you haven't far to go, Corporal. Just six or seven streets. You can't miss it. I sure hope not. This is my first trip to New York. Some big town. Big like nothing I've ever seen before. Yes, it is a big town. Well, thank you, Miss. I'm supposed to be there at 7. And then someone stepped between us and someone else, and then he was gone. He was gone. But something stayed behind. Something in the tone of his voice. Something in the way he carried himself. In the pride with which he wore his uniform. And suddenly I knew the answer to my problem. Suddenly I knew the choice I wanted to make. It was all suddenly so very clear. We need girls like you very badly, Miss Millen. I'm glad you've made this choice. Your papers will be processed immediately. Oh, thank you very much. Basic training. No explanation needed, I'm sure. Oh, it was hard work. Routine work. Reveille at 6.30, calisthenics and drill. The thrill of your first letter from home. Fatigue and your date dress. And then it was only a matter of weeks until my address was changed from Fort Oglethorpe to Gunterfield and finally, Frankfurt, Germany. I'm glad to have someone here with your experience, Corporal Millen. You'll be Chief Operator of Headquarters Switchboard. A very important assignment. And one which I'm sure you'll enjoy. And now about your billets. The whack billets are two blocks down the street. You pass the piano. Frankfurt, Germany, 1946. The remnants of the war were everywhere and they were very ugly remnants. The torn and twisted buildings, rubble piled high along the streets. The streets where the cracked troops marched. The invincible men, the iron machine, the goose step and heads held stiffly erect. The dream that marched into a nightmare of hell. Frankfurt, Germany, 1946. The railroad station, the Carleton Hotel, deluxe accommodations with one wall torn out. And everywhere the stench of decay, the gray shadow of hunger, hunger painted across the faces of the children, hunger looking out of their eyes, hunger holding out a tan for bit of chocolate. But, all of this was a part of our assignment too. Part of the words, Army of Occupation, European Command. The days were routine. The work was difficult, but it was exciting too. Calls coming in from Paris, from London and America. Calls routed to Berlin, to Vienna, to Munich and Heidelberg. Once just names in a geography book. Now names spread across a telephone switchboard before me. Your movements became automatic.  Yes, General Blair, I'm completing your call now. No, Sergeant, I'm sorry. No personal calls to the switchboard. You should know the regulations. Yes, London, you are coming through. There is interference on the line, though. Frankfurt military post. Yes. Just a moment, please. I'll connect you. I'll have to transfer your call to the post exchange and the officer in charge is Major William A. Bentley. Hour after hour, calls coming in. Calls going out. A five-minute break was as welcome as a school recess. You'd step outside for a breather. Cigarette, cup of coffee. It weren't the middle of November. I'd say this was the longest day of the year. Cigarette. Oh, coffee for me. Sugar, no cream. I've had so much of this stuff today. I didn't even claim I made percolary. You never had it so good. Are you referring to the coffee? Mmm, it's not bad. Good coffee, something I really enjoy. What time are you off duty tonight? I'm not. How's that again?  I'm taking Helen's shift. And what's with Miss Glamour? She'd pair a cuticle too close or something? You wouldn't want me to stand in the way of young love now, would you? Marge, look, you can be a nice person. And you can also be too nice a person to walk all over you. How many times have you taken that gal's duty so far this morning? I don't mind, really, I don't. I like Bill, and it's for him too. Bill is in Italy on furlough. Bill is landing at Reimann tonight. He got on a special flight, a C-47 coming from Pisa. Is it okay if I take Helen's shift now? Okay, you win. I wish you could have seen Helen's face when she got the call from Bill. Talk about a bright sun after a thunderstorm. You know, I guess maybe I was as happy as she was. We just stood there and grinned at each other like a couple of foolish kids. Marge, Helen, we were just talking about it. Betty, wait a minute, Helen, what is it? What? But Betty, get some water, get some water in the hall. She'll be right away now. Now, Helen, Helen, you're all right here. Just try to sit up a little. Now, there, that's better. Now, just take it easy for a minute, Helen.  I'm all right. Really, I... Oh, sure, sure, you are.  Thank you. I'm sorry, I was so silly. It's just that... Now, you said something about the radio. Yes, it was a news report. The plane is missing. A C-47. But Helen, you mustn't jump to conclusions. You know there's more than one C-47 over here. I took off this morning from Pisa, Italy. You are listening to the proudly-we-hail production of Operation Rescue. We'll return to our story in just a moment. You know, times have certainly changed. Why, just a few short years ago, women were completely left out of this man's world. But today, in more and more instances, women are proving that they can assume the role of real technicians in positions once thought of as solely for men. Now, a case in point is aviation. Today, in our rapidly expanding Air Force, women are taking their places alongside men as cryptographers, control tower operators, cryptographers and dispatchers. Now, these are but a few of the vital services now being performed by the women in the Air Force. If you were between the ages of 18 and 34 and can qualify, visit your nearest United States Army and United States Air Force recruiting station today. Ask about the WAF, women in the Air Force. They need you now. You are listening to Proudly We Hail, and now we present the second act of Operation Rescue. 24 hours and no report of the missing plane. Two days passed, three. The entire zone was alerted, soldiers and civilians alike. Everywhere searching parties spread out through woodland tracks, in the mountain districts, through the wide Bavarian farmlands. AFN, the American Forthes Network, was on the air hour after hour, keeping us informed on the latest details of the air tragedy. Early this morning, constabulary in Air Force vehicles rolled into the town of the beach in southern France to check on the report that the wreckage of the plane had been sighted. But after hours of fruitless search, military leaders were forced to give up when a heavy blizzard started. The same weather has now grounded all searching aircraft. As yet, there is no indication that... Well, no news is good news, Helen. I don't want to listen. Oh, I can't eat much. Now, Helen, look, listen to me. You've got to pull yourself together.  Maybe if you came back to work, maybe that would keep your mind off things a little... And here everyone say, has there been a report of the plane? Hasn't headquarters heard anything at all? And I understand. But please try to eat a little. You'll feel better. I'll leave this tray here for you. See what you can do, huh? Very frankly, Corporal Millan, I don't know where we can get any experienced help. We've screened all the files in this district. None have had any switchboard training at all. Betty Thomas has been on duty for almost 10 hours without relief. Several of the other girls are starting their second shift, too. I've tried to reach Timmy Brady and Joan Nagel. They're on leave in Garmish. The blizzard, though, has caught up all communication in that district. Well, we'll get along. It's of the utmost importance that the switchboard be kept operating smoothly till some news comes in concerning the missing plane. I'll do my very best, Captain Farnham. I'm sure you will, Corporal. Tell me, how's Helen? She's sleeping now. She's certainly taken this whole thing very much to heart. The poor kid just can't think of anything else. Well, let me know if I can do anything. Anything at all. I will, and thank you, Captain Farnham. Oh, by the way, Corporal, how long have you been on duty now? Don't worry about me, Captain Farnham. Fine, just fine. Well, if I find anyone at all who can relieve you, I'll send them right in. Thank you, Captain. Uh, Marge. Yes, Captain Farnham? Thank you, too, Marge. Thank you very much. Frankfurt Military Post. Oh, no, sir, I'm sorry. Nothing's come in at all, sir. No word. Yes, sir, as soon as I hear anything. Yes, sir. Marge, you've got to get some sleep. You can't keep on like this. No one can. You've got to get some sleep. I'm all right, Betty. You haven't been to bed in almost 36 hours, and you've had nothing to eat. Just a sandwich or two and coffee. Marge, look, I'll tell Captain Farnham... Betty, get me some coffee. But, Marge... Betty, please, I'm too tired to argue with you, too. Just get me a cup of coffee, huh? Sugar? No cream. It became something I'd read about in books. Time was something I'd known a long time ago when I was packing my kid brothers off to school. Time was a clock I punched in an aircraft factory in New Jersey. Time was revelry and miss call and retreat and taps. But not the switchboards stretching to my right and left. Not those flashing lights. Not the constant... Frankfurt military post. Frankfurt military post. Frankfurt military post. Frankfurt military post. Day in the search for the missing C-47. And the area in which the plane is believed to be has been narrowed down considerably. The job has been long and grueling. Men working impossible hours under impossible conditions, but still not discouraged. Last night, four fires were sighted. Approximately 40 miles away, an oil smudge fire was sighted in wreckage scene, or so the report was worded. But it was just another rumor, another false report. And Ryan May... Betty, you're hearing all this? No, I think it makes the waiting easier not to listen at all. I took the radio out of Helen's room. There was some definite news, some hope, anything. Frightening, isn't it? What time is it now? Little after 11. I don't think we can expect any rush, of course. Good morning. I suppose you turn in. I'd rather stay here with you. I can handle this by myself. I don't need any help. I'd rather stay.  I have to stay here. It's like those men out there looking for that plane. They have a job and they're sticking to it. I'm Chief Operator. It's my job. Marge the switchboards, my job too. But it's my responsibility. Okay. Then let me go down to the mess hall and get you some... Betty, what... It's all right. I just feel a little bit tired. Look, you're going to bed and right now, or else I'm going to call Captain Farnham, now start marching. I knew I had to keep awake. The night stretched on an endless corridor before me. Strange the things that keep running through your mind when you're alone. Little bits of your life, snatches of conversation. Brief glimpses of people in places you'd forgotten so very long ago. A girl can't be too choosy these days. I had to keep awake. I had to keep watching the switchboard. It sure is some town, big like nothing I've ever seen before.  Frank, for military post... Yes? Yes? Would you repeat that once again? Please? Yes, just now. How about Bill, by the road? No, Helen, no. They found the plane near the Swiss border on the side of a mountain and they found the plane and Helen, they think everyone's all right. When they flew over, they could see the people waving near the wreckage of the plane. Mind she's alive! And, Shun? At ease, girls. Is everyone here, Betty? Everyone, ma'am, with the exception of Helen. She went out to Rhinemane about an hour ago. Well, that's understandable. Please, all of you sit down. I just wanted to thank you all personally for your help during the recent emergency. All of you collectively, and particularly Corporal Marge Millen. Our job here in Frankfurt, in fact, the job of the Women's Army Corps all over the world, is one about which very few people know. Too few people. We are not in active combat, but we have important battle lines which must be held. No matter how difficult the circumstances, they must be held. Corporal Millen has demonstrated this very abry these last few days. Her untiring efforts, the long hours she spent at the switchboard. All this should be an example of the spirit of whack to all of you. Now there are no medals given out for courage, such as she has showed. But medals aren't necessary. She had a job to do, and she did it well. We all owe her a vote of thanks for proving the qualities of the Women's Army Corps. When you get finished taking bowels, Marge, how about some coffee? A sugar, please. Sure, I know. And no cream.  There's a future for you in Air Force Blue. Yes, an important future in the exciting places of the world. Today the WAF, Women in the Air Force, is rapidly expanding to keep pace with our defense needs. Now if you are between the ages of 18 and 34 and can qualify, enlist in the WAF, Women in the Air Force, and join the many patriotic American women who are serving their country on the Air Force team. You are needed to fill an important job in the service of your country. So visit your United States Army and United States Air Force Recruiting Station. Have a talk with the recruiting sergeant and learn all of the facts. Remember, there's a future for you in Air Force Blue. This has been another program on proudly we hail presented transcribed in cooperation with the station by the United States Army and United States Air Force Recruiting Service. This program featured a cast of outstanding players. This is Kenneth Banghart speaking and inviting you to tune in this same station next week for another interesting story on proudly we hail.