My name is Mora Collins. I serve on the same economic and recovery task force that Paul just spoke about. I also in my day job, I'm the executive director of the Vermont housing finance agency. And I'm here to facilitate this discussion tonight. And to hear from all of you on your thoughts on this topic. Okay, so you can see in the chat who we have joining us tonight. Thank you all for coming and being a part of the conversation. I am going to. Oh, I want to introduce sorry, Josh is here with us as well. We just met Josh in the opening session. We know him as the commissioner of housing, but also a resident of Orange County. And I would, I'm curious about why people chose this. Conversate community conversation. And I guess as a way of asking that, I'm curious about. For you to think about what do we want for our community in this area. When you think about housing and homelessness. What do you want to see. What do you want to see for Orange County in this way. So Josh, do you want to go first? Can you all hear me okay? There was a little bit of muffled before. Okay. So I was asked just to quickly sort of set the stage of a little bit of what's going on COVID housing related. And then, you know, more has got some questions to prompt the group for, you know, discussion. Like she said, what do we want to see for recovery? What are the problems out there that feel like there aren't being addressed? And, you know, I'm sure most folks on this call, since we self-selected this topic are aware that, you know, housing was an issue before COVID-19 as far as a lack of affordable housing, housing condition, access to housing, and therefore homelessness if there is an adequate housing. And COVID-19 has only sort of made that problem worse, if you will. We, as most folks probably know right after the pandemic, there was an effort to really quickly temporarily house homeless folks that were in shelters or out on the streets unsheltered into temporary housing, motels and hotels to keep them safe. And all the partners in all regions of the state did a fabulous job doing that, working with the agency human services and, you know, essentially interrupting homelessness. But that's not the whole story. You know, these folks are living in places that aren't meant for long-term and we need to provide more permanent, stable housing. At the same time, there's been a, you know, loss of income, depending if you lost your job or had hours reduced. Yes, there's been additional unemployment provided at the federal level and stimulus checks to help with some of that. But regardless, there's been, you know, folks that have struggled to pay their rent, struggled to pay their mortgage. And so with a lot of this CRF money, there's been a number of housing programs that the governor and the legislature put in place or they're, they're being stood up right now as we speak. And just to give a quick lay lay of the land, you know, more organization is running a mortgage assistance program for folks that are struggling to pay their mortgage that are lower income and have those challenges right now. There's a rental assistance and rental a rearage program that's up and running 25 million was allocated to that. That the Vermont State Housing Authority is operating. So landlords and tenants that are struggling to pay the rent or landlords that have not had their rent paid or had missed payments can apply to that program. And then there's other funding that's being deployed to stand up housing to help move folks out of that temporary housing situation into more permanent stable housing that Vermont Housing and Conservation Board is working on. And also a grant program to help private landlords that have vacant or sort of apartments that are in trouble out of code that are not operating right now, bring those back online to provide much needed housing. And there's also more support and rental assistance available for homeless folks that need some additional services support and rental assistance. So there has been a tremendous 85 million in total of housing funding has been allocated and has to all be deployed by December 20th. So there's sort of a rush of funding out there. And at the same time, there's also an eviction and foreclosure moratorium that's in place that is affecting people in various ways. Obviously it's to prevent a public health crisis during this pandemic. We don't want people being evicted and becoming homeless and trying to move into crowded housing or other situations, but folks that own properties that they rent or homes that they rent that are trying to sell have been impacted by this because they're essentially evictions for non payment is not happening. And so there are a number of stressors in the system right now that we just need to acknowledge. And Paul asked me to just give that quick overview. And I think that's enough of me talking and we can get into what folks are hearing and have more prompt us with with some of these questions. So thanks for listening. So the question posed, what do we want for our community in this arena? We've heard about some of the state funding, but what do we want for Orange County specifically or your communities or your organizations that you may be affiliated with? It looks, I've been scanning the chat. Looks like a lot of you are volunteers, leading a lot of work on behalf, service work on behalf of the community. And I guess I'd like to hear what you're seeing in regards to what you think is needed and what you want for Orange County. Oh, excellent. I was going to say, I'm going to warn you that on the side, I teach at UVM. And so I am not above calling on you by name if I have to, but let's start with Jennifer Fontaine, please. Sure. Hello, everyone. As I put in the chat, I work at the Upper Valley Haven, which is in White River Junction, which is Windsor County. But we, we serve people from all over, including Orange County. And for quite a while we recognize as I think I see some of my colleagues from Capstone on here as well. And I acknowledge that there are parts of Orange County, especially Orange East that are not necessarily hotspots for services from bigger organizations like ours. We just haven't had the reach and capacity in the past, but see the need and understand that a lot of people from Orange County come down to Windsor or Grafton County for services.  And I feel like it's important, you know, as I speak from my organization, it's important for us to acknowledge that we haven't necessarily done as much as we could have or should have in the past. And so we're looking to collaborate more with people. But I think what we see is a, a hesitation of people to move further north because it puts them away from bigger services and transportation. And so they're stuck between it's cheaper rent maybe in some instances, but they don't have a car or they don't have a reliable vehicle. So they're not going to be able to work. And so, you know, I was torn between this group, even though this is what I do for work and the, and the businesses because they feel like such a big piece of it is building up the economy in Orange County so that there's places for people to work. So they don't have to commute an hour so that it becomes a more viable community for people to be able to live in. So we're just seeing people not wanting to try to come this far north because it just feels like another obstacle. Thank you. Let's go to Kim Anderson next. Hi everybody. I work for the Orange County restorative justice center. So primarily I work with folks in the criminal justice system. And I would second everything that Jennifer just said. We have a lot of people that rely on the Haven for a lot of different services. And, and there's a lot of folks that would like to live in this area or Orange County in general, but we just don't have housing for them. But specifically I've been working for the last three years with a group that's been trying to get housing for folks who have addiction issues. And that has been a, we have a tenacious group. And the fact that they've stayed together for three years, I think is just completely amazing. But we haven't gotten there yet. And we're still looking and looking for money and looking for ways to make it happen. So in addition to that, I work with folks coming out of jail. And as we know folks that anybody that has any kind of subsidized housing won't allow people to live in their housing units. So I'm always trying to convince landlords to let families or single people move into their housing units, even if they have some sort of convictions. So substance abuse and, and convictions are the two areas of specialty that I am trying to find people housing for. And cars are definitely the winner in all of that. And so I'm looking for anything that's a step up from cars. I'm looking for something that's a step up from cars. Well, that's a very sobering message. But I hear the connections between you said and Jennifer in terms of their needing to be more services to support folks, if they're going to live in Orange County and right now, there's a lot of folks staying maybe south of the area, because that's where the services are, but there's a lot of opportunities in Orange County. Let's go to Linda next. We have a lot of people who have connections here, family here, jobs here, and there's no homeless services. So being forced out of their communities consistently. And it puts us in a problematic position because when we're trying to apply for funding for homeless assistance for shelter or something like that, we don't have the numbers to back it up because data collects based on where a person is not where they're coming from. So if you look at Orange County, Orange County doesn't have a homeless problem. We don't have a homeless problem because you can't be homeless in Orange County and be anywhere that's countable. So that's something that we struggle with. I think there's also the issue of just not having affordable housing units. And while the stuff that's being done right now is fantastic, their short-term solutions to long-term problems. So we can bring units online, but even what is coming online is affordable, isn't actually really affordable for a lot of the folks that we're dealing with. So, you know, 700 bucks a month might sound great for a one-bedroom apartment, but if we're dealing with folks that get $800 a month in disability, you can't do it. So we're putting to really impossible situations. And I don't know what the kind of resolution is for that other than more subsidized units with that actually match up to the number of people that need them. Yeah. And there is a difference between just having below market rents versus a truly subsidized unit that would adjust to an individual's income and would solve for that. But yeah, it sounds like there's not enough of that in the region. Eileen Murphy, you want to go next? I'm kind of here wearing three hats, but right now I'm going to speak as chair of the board of safe line, which for those who may not know, it's domestic violence and sexual assault for Orange County and Northern Windsor County. And one of the comments that our executive director has brought to us many times is urgent housing. So what to do when we need to get someone out of the place they're in and find them something that night immediately. Or if there's a family with an issue and they need to move pretty soon, what are their options for housing? And again, just like everyone else has said, well, where are they working and keeping them near work and transportation, et cetera. And I'm sure everybody knows part of that right now might be a little bit less of an issue because we're missing our mandated reporters. Kids aren't in school and people aren't around things. So that's going to be coming back. That happened in Washington state already. So once things calm down, that will pick back up again. But from safe line standpoint, it's the urgent need for housing short-term or long-term. Again, another sobering comment. This is so far the conversation about what we need there. There's a lot you all want for this community and it's, I'm hearing it mostly about the dearth of what's available currently and that what you want is to build something that's not there right now. Jennifer Guarino, probably portrait that. No, you did it right. So I'm in a mediator based in Randolph and now working, had been working countywide and in Windsor and Washington counties. And now I'm doing online mediation. And the reason I'm interested in this topic among really all the topics here is because I think a lack of appropriate housing for families, especially families in crisis, going through separation and divorce and things like that. And homelessness piles on more stress that creates more conflict. So my work involves working with people in crisis or in a dispute or, you know, struggling with a misunderstanding or whatever to find resolution. And that's hard even when all the support systems are in place. But when you have, you know, multiple crises, including lack of work and lack of schooling for the kids and, and homelessness or insecure housing. Those layers of conflict can really create, you know, multiple obstacles and sort of magnify a set of obstacles for people to, to move through conflict and find resolution. So I am worried about the families in Orange County and beyond through this time, which just is sort of piling on to, you know, regular old tough times for families. So I was interested to hear what this group had to say about homelessness and housing issues. Again, as they pertain to the work that families do to move through crisis. Yeah. And I guess listening to you all and about the lack of services and available really locally, I guess I'm curious about what's holding the region back from achieving it. It was, I think Jennifer who, oh wait now Linda said that, you know, when you're counting people who are homeless, you know, you know, you know, you know, since there's not a lot of shelters in the county, they're going to appear as if they live in another county, but really they want to be living in Orange County or maybe that is their home base before being served at the Haven or elsewhere. So I guess I've heard that answer so far about what's holding us back, but what else is holding us back from achieving those things? What's holding us back in terms of building the economic vibrancy of the county that Jennifer mentioned, or Kim, the recovery residences and things like that. What would I be able to do? Oh, lots of hands now. Kelly Ann. Thank you, Maura. One of the things that is holding my community back is a lack of zoning and lack of code enforcement. I might have buildings that have been up for sale or seem to be vacant, but with nothing to do to be able to rehab them. And I also have folks that are recently out of the court and the justice system who are living in places that are probably not habitable. If I could get a health officer to enforce some of the particular code issues and then driving by and looking at places that you drive by and you think to yourself, oh, they'll literally run down. If you drive back the other way and you return a trip and you see a carnival, you realize that people are living in a place that doesn't look particularly habitable in a very subtle way because we are rural and not everything's on the roads. Thank you. Kim, do you have an idea on this one? No, I don't have an idea on this one. I just want to say all the things that have been said already. And then some additional ones are that for the populations I mentioned, most places don't want to release somebody either from the jail or from a substance abuse place to a location that doesn't have enough housing or doesn't have housing ready for them. So, I think that's one of the main issues. That's one of the main issues. And then one of the main issues for other counties, even if they started out in Orange County and their families here and their jobs here, but they're not allowed to actually move back to Orange County. After the institutionalized. Because you have to have something you can afford. And a place that's available. So that's one of the main issues. And I think that's one of the main issues. And I think that's one of the main issues. And I think that's one of the main issues. Alcohol and drug places or housing folks that already exist around the state. Don't want to come to Orange County because we don't have existing services. For folks in recovery. And so they want the cart. Before the horse, which is they want there to be services. And then they'll. Support the housing. And I think that that comes up in a lot of different ways because we don't have any services that are based in Orange County. All of our services are based outside of the county. So it's just kind of assumed that therefore we don't have any population in Orange County. That's meaty population. Jennifer Fontein. I think, you know, we, Josh mentioned all the funding that is available right now, which I agree with Linda. It is fabulous. We're trying to help people get connected with everything that is available. But I think what. It's a great solution for the immediate. I think the long, there's a couple of long-term issues. One is funding, like if someone's going to set up services or housing, there needs to be a long-term commitment for funding. It's not something that you can do for a year and then pull away from a community. That's not fair to the community or the people it serves. And then the other piece, I think that goes along with that is you have to have the relationships with people to have, you can't successfully work with people without relationships. And you have to, it takes time to build those relationships. So there's that piece, but there's, I think the bigger one and is the community wanting to be responsible. And I think there are individual people. I mean, it's clear with people on this call, they're individual people who are committed to wanting to help people in their, in their county. But you need the right people, the people that make decisions. As, as Kellyanne was saying, the enforcement people, the people that make the rules and the laws for the towns, you need those people committed to making a difference and just supporting it. And without that, it's hard. And then there's also the caveat of every area is cut up in different ways. Like we work with Twin Pines Housing Trust, which is based out of White River, but they don't cover Orange County. So it's a different, you know, housing trust that does.  And so there's all these pieces, like Twin Pines won't step foot in Orange County because they feel like it's not their territory. And yet I feel like they might have, you know, I'm using them as an example, they might have the capacity to do it, be able to find the funding and things, but they like everyone else doesn't want to step on someone else's jurisdiction and toes. And so you have all these political things. And so I think that's very important. And it's important. I'm not, you know, I'm not, I'm not talking about the County in town and all those issues, which are. A myriad of things that service providers like us. Look at and say, oh, you know, like, we can't necessarily control that. See Linda nodding. And we can't control that. We can. Advocate, but that doesn't, you know, we're, we're not located in Orange County either. So. You know, it's kind of us from the outside, Um, but I, you know, I, I don't, I don't know exactly what the answer is and do I think it's clear to see what the problems are, but figuring out the answer is always a little harder. Um, and I don't know if it's a group like this or a group like the tax force or whatever it is that comes together to try to influence the communities but then there's so many subset communities within the county. You know, every community has its own agenda and, and what it thinks the town should have and it's just not a one size fits all. I just hear that and I, I know I've been a member of conversations like this many times and I know that when we start with questions about like what do we want, what's holding us back, you do start getting stuck in this. Oh yeah, and these needs. Oh and we haven't even talked about that, you know, I haven't heard people talk about mobile homes yeah we haven't talked about you know there's always going to be more and more. But I do hope you just start planting some seeds in your own brain about where are some of the things that are working because I am going to turn the conversation a little bit to that because I actually what I know about Orange County I'm not a resident I want to be very clear. But what I know is that Orange County has some really special things to be proud of and I'd like to be able to shine a light on that. But first I want to go to Linda and then down to Michael down because you can tell on my screen where Michael. Sorry, Linda. So, related to what Jennifer was saying, one of the things that we're really noticing is the need to bring a variety of stakeholders to the table. You know, we consistently try to solve these problems with health and human services, and we have a stake in this game, but we are not the end all be all and so figuring out how to bring the town government officials how to bring business owners how to bring anybody that has a stake in having a healthy housing environment to the table to resolve these issues so that's something we've been struggling with our continuum of care is really trying to look at the issue of geography. So we are trying to pull together a strategic plan that we can implement throughout our very vast geographic region, but that it can be implemented at the micro micro region levels, based on that community flavor, because we realize that specifically in our region. It's far too big with too many geographic boundaries to cover to have a one size fits all solution so trying to figure out how what what boundaries make sense, and how those teams work together so we're starting a process there's going to be a lot coming down I'm really hoping that we can start reaching out to the community soon to say, here's some ideas let's figure out how we work together to implement them. Great. Michael. Laura. Good evening everyone. I just wanted to real quick follow up on Jennifer's comments and introduce myself so my name is Mike Rama, I am the director of advancement at downstream housing and community development, which is the affordable housing community land trust of central Vermont. So our service area covers lamoille Washington and Orange County. So I just wanted to introduce myself and, and, and invite you all to ever reach out to you know engage in conversation Jennifer I know you have some ideas around, you know, opportunities to seize, you know, you know real estate development opportunities and such, you know, for us, majority of our housing exists in Washington County, and that's because our headquarters isn't very. So for us is about kind of balancing the resources available to us and our staff to effectively manage our, you know, our properties but we do also have properties about 100 units, 80 to 100 units in Bradford. So, you know, Twin Pines is the counterpart to the other side of our region so again just want to introduce myself and offer, offer my my contact information if anyone would ever like to have a conversation. We're all yours. That'd be great Mike maybe you could put that in the chat, your email address, in case people want to follow up that's, that's wonderful. I warned you I might call on people and so prepare yourself I recognized Ernest Caswell, your name, because I believe that you work on a really unique role within housing and I was was wondering if you want to join in the conversation. Sure. My name is Ernest Caswell. I'm pretty much a private citizen. I'm a volunteer, but I'm also a board member of a nonprofit organization that does not do housing in Vermont. Our organization is in seven states we do housing and I believe three or four. But my main thing is, because our organization here in Vermont. It's known as past on corporation you can find it at past on.org. And our main function past on here in Vermont is working with fine workers and a variety of programs and services. And I've learned a lot about the work of our organization over the years, being a part of the organization for four years. So my main thing is, is bringing to light. The opportunities our organizations have created in the area of farm workers and farmers in general. Our organization has made improvements in the area of farm housing. I see right now, we're talking about the COVID crisis. It's going to go on and on. But what I'm hearing now is from our own organization, plus a couple of others that you may know of is addressing the current status of some of the farm workers, living conditions. So an example of a worst case scenario. These cases are around they're not like their majority of the crisis but they're enough that they should be addressed. The worst case scenario is is right now presently. I know of a location where there's about eight farm workers sharing a two bedroom. There's probably about two out collar mobile home or trailer. And this ain't the only one is probably about for examples out there, and during this COVID thing here they are. They're so closely confined there. They're living in conditions that I know you all would say are terribly unacceptable. And a lot of us farm workers are humans. Not all of us are citizens. Many of us are citizens, and all of us farm workers in one form or another pay taxes. One of the things that I've been addressing is how we can improve those current conditions right now. Unless I miss anything in my research there's really no place a farmer who put these folks up. There's really no one that could help improve the situation, even if it was like saying hello you can come to us and there's funding available and we can improve the housing in some way shape or form whether it's building another mobile home bringing it to the site. Some farm workers, basically their housing needs to be up updated up to code. And one of them that I have seen they don't meet the codes at all. And it's very frustrating when I talk to the farmers and the workers because I'm huge on agriculture. I've been involved in farming on my life. And anyways, no one out there's no organization, no funding available that a farmer can easily reach. Sure people point finger, go to the USDA go to the USDA. Well I know of two organizations. I personally went down to the USDA to help find resources because the USDA has resources specifically to address farm housing and the nonprofits could utilize that funding as well, same as the farmer. There's also funding with some organizations don't realize that the Department of Labor also has loans in or grants that addresses that. So with all these combinations of things for a farmer to walk in and apply for those things is extremely difficult. Those two organizations which are out of Vermont. One of them. I'm not going to name names, but one of them. I was really surprised actually both organizations went to the USDA at the same time, and they walked out of their shake in their heads what the heck just happened here. The USDA, they weren't helpful but anyways, addressing these situations is challenging. And then 25 farms went out of business. And because of the farm housing law. About 10 of them, when they lost their jobs when they went out of business they had to move. And that's a challenge as well just because as we all know trying to find affordable housing is extremely hard. I was reading a report recently where Vermont is I believe fifth. On top of the list of need to address affordable housing and addressing affordable housing Vermont is challenging, whether it's talking about wrap up in the next minute or so because I want to call on some other victims here in the room but finish what you were saying there. Yeah, the main thing is, is one organizations to take a look at what they could possibly do. And I know there's funding out there I'm just a volunteer I don't have the answers. Everything I do is on my own personal time. I think I'm doing things that you raise that Kelly in mentioned the quality of housing, which you definitely have talked about. Yeah, hard to access funding and the government bureaucracy that comes with a lot of these programs can be very difficult to navigate and we've talked. Yeah. And some of the others talk about, you know, these hoops you have to jump through of counting people in the right county so that they get counted is Orange County but, but also you know you raise questions about non citizens and there's a racial component that we also need to address with this entire topic that we know that both the poverty, the need for affordable housing homelessness, all these issues have a racial component because people of color are disproportionately fall into these categories of needing affordable housing living and poverty, homeless, compared to the Vermont population overall. So I love from someone who hasn't spoken yet about any of these topics or other things about what's holding us back from achieving what we want for our community so I don't know if Rick or Bonnie, Catherine Annie, any of you want to jump in at this point. Thank you for talking. We're working on a workforce investment systems change project and a lot of the things I've heard here tonight are actually mirrored in there. In the with the concept of partnerships. How do you talk with the business community and bring them into the discussion. In that other conversation, the business community representatives keep telling us the exact same thing. You have to show businesses what's in it for them. And each time our group of education and social services agencies. Talks to our business representatives the business sectors about it. I can hear a disconnect in language. And I don't know if there's a way to help us better connect. We still, from a housing perspective, talk about folks needing housing which is absolutely true absolutely critical. The business may not see that direct investment if I make this direction investment what's in it for me. And we tend to think of that as selfish but it's, it's what we do for housing, what's in it for us is serving our clients. So what's in it for them is often stable workforce. And how do we help make that connection I guess if I look at problems not being addressed. That's one I'm not hearing being addressed is helping the two sectors meet in the middle or meet somewhere where they can have a true conversation with shared language. And how to solve that problem except actually having the conversations but maybe some of you have success in those areas. A lot of what the workforce and investment group talks about is stigma, and the stigma of folks who receive social services, whether it's a racial stigma or an economic inclusion stigma, but that that passes through. And we've defined this need to have a community conversation about that stigma and what it needs. And we often talk about when people start having the conversation homelessness for instance they're almost afraid to have the conversation, because that could be you but for one life instant, and you don't want it to be and so not having the conversation keeps that door closed. So, I don't have a solution for addressing it, but I'm hoping that the economic recovery team can help us find that solution or that this group can as well. How do we further those conversations. That's it. No, no brilliant solution here. No, it's a really excellent question and I, I really do enjoy facilitating discussions but I have to say that my husband knows I will come home very amped up because there's so much I want to jump in and talk with each of you about about what you're saying and I'm trying to just instead hold the space for you all to have this conversation but that that could be probably its own whole conversation Bonnie. Does anyone else want to weigh in on what's holding us back from achieving what we want for the region, before I move on. My name is Kathy Fulton. I'm the executive director of the Vermont program for quality and healthcare, and I don't mean to be poaching, but I'm actually enjoying listening to all the comments all the issues. Our organization is very where our mission is to study the system and make it better. So I can, you know, also I can do is kind of not along with all the great summary and description of the issues. Everything that everyone has said it are continuous themes in the efforts I think of healthcare providers and other partners in across the continuum of service delivery. And, you know, housing is probably the most foundational issue in discussing the social determinants of health, and where where I believe it was Ernest describing, you know, eight people living in the space. Really that would only accommodate one or two. When you're facing a challenge like the COVID pandemic and the need for social distancing that just compounds problems. And Bonnie to echo your statements about stigma. I think when folks with mental health issues, try to re engage and reconnect into their communities. Stigma is probably one of the biggest barriers and biggest hurdles to clear in addition to housing and employment. So I'm listening to hear your discussions and learn more about the area I live in. And then also by having this understanding hopefully can bring this information forward and make connections to resources and programs and we work to disseminate best practice and so that's what I'm listening for. So thank you for this opportunity. Yeah, that's excellent. There are so many intersections where you know I would, there's a cliche that housing is health care because we do know as you said those social determinants and that we know that with safe stable affordable housing decent housing. And that we will have better health outcomes overall and never has that been more obvious than in the past six months as we all realize that our homes were the safest places for us to be and so it's great to make those those connections and, and I know that there's been a lot of work around health care and housing regionally with success stories and I guess I'm curious about what are some of the promising practices what are some of the strategies or programs that are emerging from the towns in Orange County that that you've seen, maybe that you're a part of and you're really proud of maybe that you've witnessed are happening in other towns. I'm listening off towns and you can start to tell in the region, which are the towns that have the resources and which are not because we start saying like oh well in that town, you know they have these things. And I guess I'm curious, what do you see that's out there that you'd like to replicate broadly across the region or bring to your community specifically. Does anyone want to raise their hand through the function and speak to that. I think there's going to be a lot of answers here because I know we've been through the needs but there is a lot of good happening in Orange County and if you need it Chittenden County person to remind you of that and we have some problems so Linda why don't you go first. I just I think that we are seeing a lot of movement in the direction of trying to explore, like I said through our continuum of care. What is the continuum of housing look like and trying to create a system that doesn't have so many gaps. What does it look like from homeless services, through permanent housing, and how do we apply that and not just in our center of Hartford which is where we tend to focus but how do we really address our entire region so Orange County on the other side, the Randolph side how do we figure out what all of those little micro regions are and make sure that we're sort of blanketing our region, and we are doing that in a thoughtful methodical way we are thinking about what is a strategic plan look like. We're looking at what is our geographic region actually look like what those micro regions and we're trying to talk about how do we get feedback on a strategic plan from a variety of stakeholders. So, not just this is what we think is going to work but talking to folks representatives of town governance talking to people who lived experience talking to folks in our communities that develop properties and trying to figure out how to get feedback to see what are we missing and trying to bring new voices to the table and find new different ways of approaching issues. So I think it's exciting I think it's long term work and slow but we see movement. Yeah, and Linda maybe just for everyone's benefit could you just take a quick minute and remind people if they don't know what about the continuum of care. So how is that design what's it intended to do and then as well the coordinate entry system which has been a newer accomplishment of the continuum. Yes, so continuum of care is basically a functionality that is mandated by HUD, and it is to address homelessness. We have to statewide one is chitin and county ballot and then the other is a balance of state which is everything other than chitin basically. And then each continuum is in our the balance of state is broken down into local continuance of care so ours is the upper valley, continue of care which covers orange Windsor and parts of its Grafton County in New Hampshire, Lebanon that area. So we're really tasked with trying to figure out how do we eliminate homelessness, which is a really big task and our region is tough. We do the point in time counts. And then the coordinate entry process is about trying to figure out how to really coordinate access to these resources for homeless households that we have an idea of how many homeless households are in our region and where they're at are they connected with a provider. It's how we determine, we prioritize for our access to vouchers. I think that's sort of a brief overview. Great. Thank you. Eileen, do you want to go next and I'll go to Jennifer Fontaine. Mine is actually more of a question. I've heard earlier that how do we say that there's an issue with homelessness in Orange County when people aren't homeless because they have to go to a different county to live so what I'm thinking about for numbers is, I've worked in health care on both sides of the river. And if someone goes to New Hampshire, but they're Vermont resident they're still going to get counted and statistics for Vermont Department of Health. How do we capture these numbers? In other words, is there a way to capture someone who is who actually should be counted under a certain town or in Orange County, but is not in all of the conversation that's happened so far. How do those numbers get captured and how do we know where they are? I'm not looking for the answer right now and begging that question of that might actually help with then trying to move forward with some efforts because we know that that needs to happen. And it's probably serendipitous that Jennifer is going to speak next because I know that the Haven is a big partner in the point in time count and these sort of censuses of, of counting people who are homeless. So Jennifer maybe you could half answer the system that we have today, but also I know you wanted to share something and probably still want to raise that the system that we have today is not perfect for some of the reasons you've spoken to already. Yeah, I mean just a quick answer to Eileen's question. So it's a point in time. And so it's meant to be tracking where people are on a single night, the single 24 hour period. And so it's the way that HUD has set it up. It's a lot of HUD guidelines on people that are couch surfing do not count. That's not consistent. You know, the HUD guidelines for chronically homeless and for homeless get stricter and stricter every year. That way it makes the numbers look better. That's my pessimistic viewpoint on it. So, and I see Linda laughing at me. But you know, so it's, it would be a revamping of that system or having to partner with organizations that are in those counties where people can't, it would, I think it's doable in the long run but it would take a whole lot more planning than is put into it now. The positive from Orange County that I wanted to mention, because I do tend to point out a lot of negatives. But I think one of the positives I've seen I also sit on some on the local hunger council and some food committees and one of the things I've seen in the past. I'd say year, year and a half is Little Rivers health care, which is based out of Orange County as in there are federally approved medical site for people is their expansion into more than just medical care. And they are, you know, they have community more common familiar with the Dartmouth terms that, you know, community specialists that help people with other things besides medical needs, whether it's applying for benefits or helping connect with other resources. They've expanded into food needs for people. I want to say it's up in East Corinth, but I could be wrong. That's now working on something that's called Upper Valley North, I think, trying to collaborate where food is available and in the northern part of the community so, you know, they've been a positive force trying to help the people that they work with, which a lot of are some of our same clients or people that are living marginally. Yeah, yeah. So my last question for you all is, what are your ideas, what's still needed. What are the additional actions that we need either hyper locally regionally at the state level that can address these challenges, and to work towards equitable economic recovery in the rural, because a lot of what I've heard tonight and if you see me looking sideways it's because I'm a note taker and I like writing a lot and and what I'm hearing and what I've taken notes on gets to a lot of fundamental issues that were in existence well before which whatever when COVID struck us. I mean, this is COVID just really opened up more and deeper what was already happening. So I guess I'm curious to hear from you all what other ideas you have about what would make sure that our recovery or renewal is equitable reaches for everyone and is is fully available across the whole region of Orange County. Any Rick fell you know I'm coming to you if no one raises their hands so let's be thinking. Eileen. I don't mind saying in rural Orange County, it's getting the word out and how do you get the word out. That's a real issue. You have to do it in multiple ways there's so many people that we're not even going to talk about cell phones because those are things that don't work anywhere so for those few spaces that have them. But then there's broadband and then there's paper, and then there's word of mouth so even if there were ways to do this and there were conversations and solutions, how would we then communicate them without that. Yeah, Bonnie. I just put my hand down. I think my boyfriend covered things. Okay, great. Mike. Thanks, Mara. I probably want to be. Well, I, I, I think it doesn't need to be said but I'd like it to be in the notes I guess. But funding, you know, speaking from a affordable housing developer and provider perspective, you know, us and all of our colleagues across the state have more or less an endless pipeline of project ideas. So it's not a, it's not a question of, you know, is our energy there is our commitment there but it kind of gets down it is the funding there. So with the restrictive funding that that exists. It limits the actions that organizations can take because they need to take very conservative actions to ensure that they get funded for that project in that there's limited funding and I'll, you know, those of you who are aware Vermont Housing Conservation Board is like the mediator of of state funding to local and regional housing organizations. They haven't been fully funded in over three decades. So from a state level to me that's a pretty easy point to to indicate where I think there could be growth that would then open up greater possibilities and more, you know, calculated risks to go into communities that don't have services. And then, you know, I think it was. Who was it, who said it before. I can't, I can't see your name. Who I think dropped off mention how it's kind of like the car before the horse right, but it gets back to we need to be a little conservative in our approaches to ensure that we do get that funding because we rely on that and that the pool is very limited. So I think more funding would open a lot of different doors, particularly for, for our role communities who feel like they're not being considered as often. And Linda. I want to echo the funding but also for services. A lot of times we're asking landlords to take a big chance. And they're a lot more comfortable doing that if we can offer services, but there's not a ton of money for case management, or long term case management. And one of the things we end up seeing with our coordinate entry list is our programs are really set up to address short term to medium term needs they're not set up to address long term needs. So we don't have enough shelter plus care programs to be able to provide those long term ongoing services with the subsidies. The other thing that we see and get really frustrated with, especially in Orange County is the rules are very strict and there's needs to be some flexibility with things around. We get spent in the situation to sort of cut off our notes despite our face.  They can't work. All of a sudden, they can't pay their bills. The landlord wants to keep them as bending over backwards. If that person to qualify for a subsidy. They would be great. Unfortunately, because their house they don't qualify. So we have to make them leave housing in a region there is no additional housing to get become homeless to even consider being qualified for a voucher. So those rules are set up. I, you know, I'm not privy to why these rules are set up this way. I just know they don't make sense for some a lot of our circumstances. Yeah. Yeah. Again, some of these issues are, I mean, I've only been in the state for 20 years and I know what they're that old I'm sure they go far beyond my time here. Jennifer. So my mind's just kind of posing a question. I'm, you know, thinking about what Bonnie said and just thinking about some of the things I said I almost sat in on the business section because I see the intersection of those two.   I know about how many of the communities in Orange County are technically food deserts that don't have a substantial grocery store or even a decent, you know, general store where they can buy things. Things like that are a necessity in the community, but it's a business, but it could have has I mean, I know it's way more complicated than that but it just makes me wonder are there ways that benefit everybody that could, you know, again it is a lot of funding to start and people willing to take a chance, but I just wonder if that's an opportunity that we're just not thinking about, because it's so complex. Yep. Yep. I'm going to go to Phil next, but I want to queue up that at some point, Mike I'm going to call on you to maybe talk a little bit about French block is that kind of what it takes to do that kind of upper story housing and Josh I know that is a lot going on around the economic revitalization of downtown and especially coming out of this recovery specifically but I want to go to Phil, and then maybe talk about some of those things. From, you know, Josh I want to jump in it's going to in a little bit we're going to be wrapping up and I want a chance to sort of say a few observations that I see the housing as well but first Philip love to hear from you serve Vermont perspective. Everybody fill calling with Sir Vermont where the State Service Commission and our primary mission is to administer the AmeriCorps program in Vermont so we look at everything through a sort of human capital lens and where can we insert people to make a difference you know when I hear this great conversation around housing I think of our we do have a very substantial AmeriCorps program with the Vermont Housing and Conservation Board. But we're thinking a little bit bigger than that right now because either in the next recovery package or there's a standalone bill right now. Both sides of the aisle down in DC are looking towards national service as a way to get people employed or at least not unemployed these are AmeriCorps members are volunteers but they're not on the unemployment roles way to build skills a way to address some of the challenges that we've been facing and as we're saying and I'm hearing from all of you you know most of this is not new it's just exacerbated so I like to think of things from the lens of where can we insert people to make the most difference and one of our interests in Orange County right now is similar to what it sounds like a lot of other organizations have we don't have as many people in Orange County as we might like to. Some of our AmeriCorps members serve in the places you would expect or the organization some of yours even that are easier to place them at but I've certainly gotten a lot of fodder and ideas from this conversation but making sure that we're always going to have you know how do we take people who might be out of work or who might be underemployed right now or whose lives have changed substantially you know we're even talking about parents whose children might now not be going to school full time so they're going to have some time but not enough time maybe for the job they had or a different schedule or whatever so how do we make sure we're taking care of the people and using some of these resources we anticipate having to address problems and basically you know one of my biggest challenges is everything I hear all the time sounds like something we could get AmeriCorps members involved in so you know everything you've said everybody has said so yeah we could be part of that we could be part of this and just how do we best leverage the resources we have to better serve Vermonter so thanks for having me as a part of this conversation. Yeah Phil can I ask you a follow up question and it goes back to Mike said earlier you know we need more resources and he was speaking about resources for housing and then another comment jumped into like and we need the services the case management long term to stick with people. When I think about AmeriCorps again I go back to resources I agree with you there's great projects that they could be working on but it seems like we never have enough resources to have enough AmeriCorps. Do I have the right perception there or is it a lack of folks willing to serve what what are the limiting factors. Yeah it's definitely not folks willing to serve for years now we've had hundreds more applicants in Vermont than we have positions we have about it's essentially like 200 full time equivalents and about 400 members serving in Vermont throughout the course of a year. But so yes we do not have enough resources there either. However some of what they're talking about now in terms of recovery is things like the Civilian Conservation Corps which there were millions of people out of work. They put them to work they built all of our parks you know how if we had a program that looked like that. The other piece is as with most federal grants there's match requirements there's a lot of rules there's a lot of administrative barriers to hosting AmeriCorps members so I do think sometimes we underutilize the program as a whole. A lot of that is up for debate right now because we need to get people moving on these projects so an organization that maybe can't meet match or doesn't have enough local cash to host a program. How do we get them that cash so right now they're talking about both match waivers as well as match replacement cash so rather than getting a grant of $200,000 you'd be getting 400 or $450,000 to run the same program so. Some of your perception is tragically correct and we're working hard behind the scenes to try to change some of those things to make it easier for states and organizations to access AmeriCorps as a resource for recovery on all of these issues. Thanks. Um, Josh, maybe you want to talk about, you know, Phil was laying out sort of an identified need, what's being discussed what's happening within the planning works I know that when we talk about the connections between housing and economic development and revitalization and bringing back our communities. You know, ACCD is at the forefront of all of this so do you want to talk a little bit about some of those downtown efforts as well. Sure, I could talk about that and then I could kind of. I haven't really said much from the beginning kind of put back what I've heard and some thoughts on that to. Yeah, there is lots of different downtown tax credits various grant programs incentives for sort of reinvesting in our village centers and our downtowns. Um, that it goes to a lot of what I've heard people talk about that we have to do those things because much of our regular market systems and housing is the visit visit. Visit a biggest example of this are not functioning as they should or maybe as they have in the past and so incentives government incentives to make that system work is what's needed in many cases it's yet it's cumbersome it there's bureaucratic layers there's never enough funding. Um, but we can't just stop and sober hands and give up and say no we all are champions of our own sort of communities and making them better and the work that we all do. Um, you know we want to make our our area and the people we serve better so are lots of different programs out there. Um, you know on our website accd.vermont.gov you can search you know housing community development economic development. Um, what's interesting is, you know a lot of this conversation that we had today really COVID didn't really come up I mean that's not even we're really talking about as much more fundamental challenges across the board and on the, the plus side I think turning, you know, lemons and lemonade, you know I heard a lot of challenges around coordination, you know what's a very for a rural county that some say there isn't one actual stop light in this entire county. You know just in the housing and social service sector, you know that I can think of that were mentioned on this call capstone Clara Martin RAC DC down street safe line. We have a number of organizations that serve this very rural county with a fairly small population and it's a challenge to sort of coordinate that and have you know overlapping territories and um, you know, in some sense competition for funding, but there's a lot of resources out there that we have to find a you know way for these networks to be a little bit more seamless and to complement each other I think, you know rather than then compete or concern that we don't have the resources in the right places is fine that the partnerships that will make a difference to address that one area that I heard that I agree is a solution is on this sort of zoning and code enforcement our department are we have a community planning and revitalization team. And this is a lot of what they focus on that, you know, many of our historic downtowns and villages that dense that density that we love that make them a place you want to go visit actually is illegal in our current zoning, you know, we have zoning models that were all adopted in the 70s that are suburban car oriented. And if a building burnt down and you wanted to build that mixed use density that is there it wouldn't be allowed under current zoning. That is the place where we challenge our select boards and our planning commissions and to change their thinking, you know, much of that many of these organizations, many of these sort of volunteer positions you got to remember they're volunteer are mainly run by people that own a home that own a single family home, and maybe have never thought about the need for small apartments and micro apartments, you know, any eligible to be anywhere in town, you know, we don't need. We need most of our community zone for large single family homes on five acres that serve in today's population 1.2 people in that home whatever the statistic is we have the reality is we have a declining population in Orange County and an increasing housing need that the reality is we have 19,000 substandard housing units in Vermont, I drive around my neighborhood downtown Randolph, there are vacant apartments left and right, that the market is not working. You know, the system will not work to fix those up have them in code compliance be nice safe safe decent housing that we want with the rents that most people can afford. And so the opportunities are there to reinvest in the housing and the funding is always a challenge but we have to remember that we do invest you know I'm looking at the housing budget report from this just this year and you know Vermont spent almost $62 million just in new housing development last year. Another 94,000 94 million in and support services rental assistance and support services. There are resources I'm not going to say it's ever enough but you know we have to challenge ourselves to try some different models that bring those costs down. I think is one of the solutions including farm worker housing, including mobile homes you know it's an it's an affordable way for someone to have their own four walls. And we don't reinvest in mobile home parks a lot when they close you've just lost a valuable housing resource that you can't bring back. We're not in all that housing funding we're building, we're barely keeping up with the rate of housing that is going away. You know we're our housing development is something like more of the statistic point zero one nine percent we're barely building more housing than we're losing every single year in Vermont. And so there's some real challenges that make us need to sort of look in and refocus on what we do have for housing resources and find you know roommate models home share other things that bring down these costs. For monthly expenses that people don't have the income to pay. So those are sort of the things that listening to this conversation that jumped out at me and that there isn't any one of us, they're going to solve this, you know by ourselves it's all focusing on every single project one at a time. And there are some folks in some communities I'm aware of in Orange County that would never would have supported. Yes, they've identified we need more affordable housing. Let's have a multi family housing unit planned in our downtown and you know a mere few years ago I did not see that support at the select board level and people have heard from those businesses you've talked about that said we can't stay in Bethel. I know that's outside of Orange County but just over the border we can't stay in Randolph, three or four large employers, because they can't get workers because the workers can't find decent affordable housing. And so they've come around and sort of push that conversation into one of supporting more affordable housing rather than opposing it. So I think there is a you know opportunities and people are understanding the need for affordable housing in a way that they haven't in the past and conversations like this where we connect and we hear those the varying opportunities out there with the challenges laid on top and we just double down on our efforts to work on them. You know one one one one at one at a time to make some progress. I don't think anyone here is talking about going away and doing less on this issue I think this this sort of brings more energy to the focus we all have so I'll stop talking. No that's great Josh there was really helpful summary and reflection on how what we've talked about and heard today tonight dovetails with a lot of what's been happening at the state and a lot and a lot of data. Bonnie something that was said prompted a thought for you. Just a challenge I guess. We're starting to talk Josh mentioned zoning and certainly I think our zoning is based on 1960s 1950s housing policy in many of our communities and zoning gets amended over time but never really thought through. But I think the other thing that we're talking to our communities about we often think of housing as something we need to build new and there's a reason for that we do that because the quality of the housing that's out there may not be that great. But it's also about our the efficiency of our service delivery model. We need 24 units of housing to make the project work. So we're talking with our communities. Not thinking about the number of homes in their communities but the existing number of bedrooms and as our population changes. And our population curve shifts. They might actually have to think about turning that single family home into a duplex. And that may not be great for housing in our village center because most of those single family homes are out there in the middle of nowhere. But it's going to require a systems change if the only way to get the true number of housing units we need is to take the housing we have and divide it in half or thirds or quarters. And I'm hoping that the housing community might consider that and maybe you already have and talk to the planning world about what's realistic there because it would require a different service delivery model from services perspective, not just building homes. So any feedback would be great. You can rant at me. You can say, yes, let's talk about this offline, but I want to interject that. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what's going to be needed to to solve these sticky widget problems. We're going to need to look at things in a whole new framework and not keep figuring out how we keep doing more of the same but putting some new solutions on the table. So are there other thoughts? We're going to we only have about five minutes left together. So are there other thoughts that you want to cover tonight? I will tell you, I want to jump in. I take it back. I'm not turning it over to you. That I I'm so impressed with the dedication of so many people who bring so much knowledge to this conversation. You know, Jennifer talked about how individuals want to help but we don't always have the decision makers and that sometimes things feel out of our control but I am hearing about and seeing a real dedication to give up two hours. I mean, it's a piece of your evening with your family and or your Netflix, whatever means more to you in this world, but and and really spend it on these topics and grappling with this and clearly what you brought to tonight's conversation is not just your thoughts as of 630 this evening, but it seems like it's really going to be difficult on careers or time volunteering or or deep commitment to these communities that that really is going to be what's needed to make some change in in Orange County. Nick has been taking notes as we go along. That's why I wasn't picking on him to have to speak. He has been our scribe. I also have a couple pages of notes here that I was taking and Josh did a great summary for us. And I'm going to wrap things up in about a minute and a half but Ernest I see you've raised your hand do you want to say something quickly before we wrap up. Yes, something that was talked about that I would like to see more of. I think Josh mentioned that I grew up in Orange County mentioned about how it would be nice to bring in some of the vacant homes. Some of the underutilized homes basically rehabilitating what's out there. And if there's organizations that have the ability in the want to do those kinds of things. I think that would be great and now it'd be another way that the agriculture community could also take advantage if there were opportunities to rehabilitate like current farm housing homes, plus some of those homes that are out there that are available that are out of code and bringing those up to code seeing those that kind of work may be more appealing to communities versus building something new. I know NIMBA is a huge factor. Everywhere, not in my backyard scenario sort of things. So being something that's already there rehabilitating something. I think maybe Vermont should look at more of because rehabilitating some of those homes, there may be more affordable homes available in the future. That's, that's all I got to say. I think that's a great idea that should be utilized more. Yeah, and a lot is going to change in the future. Well, we may not have talked about COVID a ton tonight in terms of the needs. Many people will acknowledge that COVID is going to change our housing markets. It's going to change our job markets. It's going to change a lot about who's able to be a Vermonter. What jobs can be done here? What jobs can be done remotely that we lose and also knowing that so much of Vermont relies on seasonal homes and we've always had a lot of people from outside Vermont coming here for tourism for recreation. There's a lot of opportunities. So with that, I want to turn it over to Nick, who's going to explain to us what the closing sessions like and Nick, are you going to talk about the survey as well? Sure. I'll probably talk less about the survey because I think general will bring it up back in the main session. But thanks everyone. And before we move back to the main meeting room, I just want to take the opportunity because I don't think maybe anybody else will just to thank Mora for facilitating this conversation. I think this has been really super interesting as a lifelong resident of Corinth and therefore Orange County myself. I'm super into it. Thank you all. Appreciate it. And I look forward to seeing you in just a moment in our closing session. So thank you.