You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. I was wild in 94, 94. I like wild. There was a bouncer on the back door of Camden Palace. It was alleged that I run up to him. I've tried to shoot him with a sawn-off shotgun. Prison for me was just non-stop conflict with the screws. When you are prepared, when you, you, you, or anybody else, when you personally are prepared to die, to go to prison forever, to get stabbed, get shot, get beaten for that other person, like that's what I'm gonna get. It's gonna, I'm gonna accept that for you. Jumps up.  All the fellas have come out of the wing with tools and they're expecting us all to run off. Yeah! Let's go, let's go, let's go! And then you're like, yeah, let's go, let's go!  Yeah, I was gonna get life. It was, it was, it was just, it's happening, isn't it? You get nicked for them shootings, that you're either getting not guilty or you're going away forever. Bimber on! Back. Yeah, it's me at part two. We've got the brother on Marvin Herdback. There you go. How are you? Yeah, really good, you know, it's, I must say it's quite surprising the amount of attention or sort of acknowledgement I've had through my story, you know, it's quite amazing to see there's so many people interested in that journey, you know, it's a, it's kind of blessing, you know, I admire a little bit on lots of things, to be honest with you, James. It's a phenomenal story and I told you that after we've done it, it's one of the best, if not the best podcast I've ever done, the roller coaster of emotion from speaking about the pain of your past, your mum, your dad, you clearly wear your heart and your sleeve. It was, yeah, it was such a powerful podcast that's one of the most viewed in the UK this month, over 300,000 views, over a quarter of a million downloads. It's been mega. Obviously, you're the quickest guy I've had on for a part two. It's, yeah, it was a phenomenal story and we never even touched the surface, we're not even scratched the surface. So many people, I know a lot of people, I've had a lot of people on the show, I know who's the real deal and who's not.  Even just hearing that makes me feel a little bit emotional, because to me, my journey has just been that, it's just been a journey, it's just been what I've had to do. But when I sort of reflect back and I think about things, I can't say it's traumatising that, but it's like, wow, how could you think like that? Do you know what I mean? Like the mindset I use to have the constant insanity, you know, and it's just reflecting on it all now, makes me sort of realise now, rather than before when people said me, oh, you're alone with it, you're now.   I'll just do what needs to be done and I'll just, I'm honest, and maybe that's been one of my flaws and got me into a lot of trouble, because I'll tell someone when they're a cunt, I'll tell someone when I think they're stupid, I'll tell someone when they think they're making a mistake, I'll tell someone when I think they're wrong, you know, I'm not one to hold my mouth, I wouldn't do it, or I have done it in a way where I've actually made people listen, do you know what I'm saying? It's just all part of the mindset, the transition where we're going and I really appreciate the opportunity to be able to put my story out there in ways that people can understand me as a person, you know, because everyone listens to a reputation, everyone listens to a story, everyone listens to a tale, but no one really listened to the people, you know, and although I'm not proud of the person that I was, you know, I'm proud of getting through what I got through, you know, because I know that it's took a lot, it really has took a lot, and I know a lot of men, a lot of people would have broke a lot sooner, or not being made 20% through my life, you know, but the one message I like to give everybody is never give up, and I'm living proof of that, although I made it, and the word I was looking for last time was an oxymoron, I became a successful criminal but I mounted to nothing, and I was the best criminal at what I'd done where I was doing it, so I became very successful in what I'd done and how I'd done it, but I mounted to nothing, and it was that that resonated with me into realizing I've always wanted to become something, and I made it to the highest level in a criminal fraternity, and I didn't feel like I'd achieved anything, so I needed to go to higher levels and higher frequencies, and that's where I'm going right now, you know. How good was it to feel when you opened yourself up to be vulnerable, talk about your story to be getting so much loving attention now for people to accept you for who you are, and what you've came from to what you're doing now? Were you surprised?  But it's the fact that I've been through it, the fact that I've got through it, and the fact that I'm ready to go up to another frequency and another level is what just keeps pushing me, you know, I'm not giving up, I haven't made it to where I want to be yet, like I've turned my life around, I've made a fundamental change in my life, but now it's about maintaining that lifestyle and that living and that mindset, you know, positively because now there's so many people, you're talking thousands of people asking you to do your book, we know that's all coming, your book, documentary, film, you're also going to start doing your own podcast, what I'm actually buzzing for, we spoke about it the last four weeks that you're going to bring in the elite, some heart-hitting stories. I've seen a gap in the market really to be honest with you James, I've seen a gap in the market that needs to be filled because we all need to be honest, we all need to make a difference, we all need to make a change and I think I'm the conduit to do that for the masses that need it I believe and I think with the podcast it'll be emotional, it'll be explosive, do you know what I mean? It'll be what it's supposed to be, it'll be a podcast for the street, you know, it's just, I think it's going to be unbelievable, we're not touched too much on it but check out Marvin's YouTube channel, Marvin heard about it, you get two YouTube channels, was it one? I think there's one, I think there's two Facebook pages and one's a corporate and one's a personal and one YouTube page.   It's just, like I keep saying, it's just what you have to do at that time and you're like that, even writing down all the prisons I've been in, I forgot some of them because you don't remember the ones you've been for a week, like I've done laydowns in blocks all around the country and you don't remember every prison you've been in and so you don't really mention all the laydowns, you just mention the gels where you've been on the landings, that's what I'll give you, all the gels where I've been on the landings, it doesn't make sense to talk about the ones where I was down the block because the block story is all the same. So yeah, I've been about because I was a subversive inmate, I wasn't one of the inmates that liked to work towards a deacat or towards a home leave, I was just, I was insane.   So 86 was the first team you went to, the way you always felt them, was it? Yeah, what was that experience like? To be quite honest with you, I don't want to sound sort of well hard sort of thing, but it's, I can only be honest James, right, so what was it like when I first went to prison, right? My first fault when I went to prison was I've got to have it with everybody, if anybody says the wrong word in the wrong tone, it's off, it's just got to be off, there's no making friends, I've got no friends here, so anyone talks to me, it's a confrontation or it's a fight and that was my introduction to Felton really, you go, I remember I cried though when they said no bow, the first time I got no bow, I think it was 15, 14 or 15, mate, I was like, no bow, what do you mean, what do you mean, no bow, what do you mean? And I started, what do you mean, mum, mum? Funny, I got to prison, what do you mean I got to prison, I can't go to prison, I'm happy, what's the matter with you? I wasn't really bad, what are you doing?  And I'm all right with I can get cut, I've been cut, I stabbed myself, I fell on things and you know, as a kid you measure things up on the pain and a cut never hurt, a cut was a feeling, it was like, that was crazy, when a cut's just like, it's not a pain if that makes sense, it's kind of hard to explain but I wasn't scared of getting cut, so the worst thing that could happen to me in prison was the knowledge that I had, I could get cut or hot water and sugar, so then I decided that I'll get a blade and I will always have hot sugar and water, so I'm only gonna have what everyone else has got sort of thing, so when I first, I went down to the cells, I was crying and then I was in Hampstead Magistrate, I think it was, I was either in Hampstead Magistrate or Juvenile Court, where was it called? Might have been Willesden Juvenile Court on Marley Bone Road, oh no, it wasn't, it was Willesden Juvenile Court up near Willesden, it was, it was in Willesden and then I went from there to the holding cells in Lambeth and that's when I fucking, I was just out of my comfort zone, there's like 45, 50 kids in one cell, do you know what I mean, and you walk in there and I was always a pretty smart dresser as a kid, once I started nicking money, I was wearing all of the latest labels, back then it was Chevion, Paul Smith and the back end, it was the back end of Chippy and then it was Chevion, Paul Smith, they appeared there, though it was more Pringle and Lyle Scott when we were growing up, Pringle, Lyle, little Scott, Paul Smith, a man he came out a couple of years later, yeah so I was always in the, like the sickest garms, I was dressed well, so when I've turned up in a prison I always looked apart, I never looked like one of them people that was, that I have not sort of thing, you know, always looked sensible, my face was always confrontational, so I wasn't backing down from anybody, if you looked at me I'm looking at you and I'm asking you what, what you looking at, what? And if you look at me, it's for fight, it was no real in-betweens, it was either submission or a fight, so that was my introduction to Felton, yeah that was throughout the course of the sentence so the juvenile's is pretty vague for me but I was very loud, very very loud and very confrontational and I had to be seen, I had to be heard, I had to be known so it was the same mindset I had when I first come to London. I'm in a new environment, I've got to make an impact, how do I make an impact? I make an impact by being violent and loud, confrontational and norwy and that just gets me the attention. I made a bit of an impact throughout the juveniles and a good thing about me growing up is mad because as a juvenile I was pretty advanced so 13, 14, 15, my mates would be 17, 20, 23, like some of my mates are 10, 15 years older than me, do you know what I mean? So when I was 13, 14, 15, my mates was 18, 20, 30 sort of thing, it was like really weird but I am going to apologize because there's quite a few young men that fell victim to becoming addicted to drugs because of me I believe because when I first got to Fulton and places like that, they never heard a crack hearing, ease and power up. There was just all smoke and weed and I was banged up with a few kids from over Totland, there was me, Mark Lambie, Wang Wang, Wang Wang, me, Wang Wang, Grant E, Lambie, me, Grant E, Lambie and Wang Wang, yeah, Wang Wang, Wang Wang, his name was but it was all, it was in the four man dorm and I was, I come off a visit and my pals would come up and it was when the ease the rave scene was going off so when it was all partying on the acts on the weekend my pals would bring about a few ease, a bit of sniff, a bit of crack and a bit of earring so then I'll come back to the cell. Now I was, what are you class as a cockney kid? So all the raggers, they were calling raggers because they were just ragger muffins, some of them were African, some were Jamaican but everybody acted Jamaican but they all spoke Pat's wire and put on accents whereas I was always spoke normally so I was banged up with all the little raggers like Lambie and all them like with the little bad men from Totland and that, yeah. So when I'm banged up with them they're all smoking weed, zest, like they're getting a little 10 pound draws so I learned very quick in prison that you make friends with drugs so I was always, my older brother was a birdhead, my mum was on drugs, my sister was on drugs, my brother was on drugs, my friend was on drugs so getting drugs wasn't a problem so I asked my parcels, my parcels came in so I'm sitting with all the raggers smoking crack and they're like, what's that? I said, this is free because we call freebase back then, I said freebase and just freebase and a bit of coke mate and they're like, what's that, what's that? I'm like, cocaine and they're like, we don't touch that, we don't touch that. So I said, I'm high in there and I've got to come down so I'll boot a little bit of earring and they're like, what's that? I was like, that's herring, bring it down and they're like, wow, what do you do all of that? I was like, yeah, then they would join after. Do you know what I mean? Like that was my normal at that age. You know what I mean? I've been smoking crack and herring for four years up until that point. Do you know what I mean? Like it was like sick and the older people I was hanging around, they were all doing it. So I introduced a lot of the class A drugs into the YRI's infotum. I'm not responsible for all of it by any means but there's a few, there's a few kids, a couple of kids from Battersea that fell victim. Do you know what I mean? My pals' little brother. There's a few people, you know, one of them, a couple of my pals have died. We all got caught up in a world that we thought was good and great and mature and we didn't realise the consequences. What was your leak when you were clocking? If you never had anything? I never really clocked. It was kind of weird because I weren't as mad as it sounds. I weren't a junkie as though it sounds crazy.  You don't look at yourself as a junkie. These were social acts that people done in certain environments that was accepted. Then it wasn't as bad that all those drugs were just coming through and it is the you've got to think of it. I'm easily influenced by all the older lot. So all my older lot are doing all these drugs. So to be like them, you just mimic and that's all it was, you know? Yeah.  But you know, I was. But you don't think you are. It was just the normal, wasn't it? It was just normal. That was normal. That was normal. It was just normal. Yeah. It's scary to think for such a young boy, 15, 16, to be doing that in a sale, isn't it? It's scary. Yeah, but that was it. See, then it became more of a societal thing. So at the end of the weekend and then it was too much. So then I started, throughout my sentences, I partied once a month.  There was sort of frowned upon through, I'd say the late 90s, mid 90s, it was starting to get frowned upon because that's when New Jack City came out, crack was getting frowned upon. So it wasn't good thing to be smoking crack.  I was just I've done things that was called to be done at that time sort of thing. So come the early 90s, early 90s, mid 90s, crack wasn't an issue, heroin wasn't an issue. It was more about getting money then, more money, more sustainability, you know, growing, moving up ladder.  Or was it just a pleasant thing? No, it's just, you come out and you take drugs anyway, didn't you?  And then if you get too wide, then you have to take volumes of something like that to bring you down. The drugs have always, well, they always did play a part until I left this country, do you know what I mean? Because the normal environment on the weekend is everybody parties. Even all the people that work, they go out and have a drink. All the people that have been grafting, they go out and have a sniff. All the people that will go out and have a party. So everybody's out on the weekend. So everything in this country is geared towards the weekend than having a party. It's hard to sort of get away from it totally. And that's why moving out of the country. What was what in whole like 87, 88, you were there? Was that still why yours? Yeah, it was still why I was. Well, back in the 80s, prison was pretty much black and white. And then the mixed race people just sort of never really fitted in.  So there's a lot of mixed race people in the system, three or four that I know, me included, that was just off the hook. Do you know what I'm saying?  Like they weren't a week that went by that I never had a drama in the prison. Do you know what I mean? I never had a week where it wasn't a nicking. Do you know what I mean? Like even towards the end of me sentences, I got released from the blocks. Like, it's just understand like, I'm getting I've got two weeks left on my last sentence, and they ended up chaining an head back in a screw because he got cheeky. I mean, he reminds us of what you followed intimidate me a week before I'm going on.   But he thought that he was going to get me extra bird. He didn't realize that I'm going in front of an adjudicator. So bang, when I got in front of an adjudicator, I plead not guilty. I'm getting out in three days. Do you know what I mean?  They've got to release me. So unless they deal with that case there and then, they can't and they've got to rejoin it for a month for the adjudicator to come back. So it was case done. So the screw was going on. So you're done and you got away with it? Yeah, that was only one. Yeah, only one. Can canton prince was it canton palace in a canton palace in a. Oh, that was my introduction to the big boys. Yeah, that was allegedly I was allegedly what happened. There was a bouncer on the back door of canton palace. It was alleged that I run up to him. I tried to shoot him with a sawn-off shotgun. The sawn-off shotgun hadn't worked. He's took flight while he's taking flight. I was supposed to pull out another firearm and let a couple of shots go at him. He got into the club. I was supposed to have left then. Miraculously, about half an hour later, I got stopped getting out of a car about two and a half miles away. Police, I don't know if it was freeze, don't move. Anyway, I've done one, got away, got through the back of my ass, got through the flat and then basically got nicked about 200 meters about about 200 yards from where I was nicked. They found the 44 automatic and shotgun. And then when I'm remind for that, that was 89. Yeah, then I ended up I ended up in Fulton. I went Fulton. Yeah. Then Brexton after that. Yeah. What was Brexton like? Well, again, it's the same as going to Fulton, but the only difference was now it's men. So we're going up ladder.  Yeah, I'm the man here.  And then that was it. Just went on a landing. I just had it with every anybody that confronted me, you know, like, I was, I found it was only the screws. I never had eggs with the inmates, the inmates I was sweet with is just screws. So you won't let a talk on the landing.    I'm doing what I'm doing when they come. I said, what?   So it was just ag, bricks done. Like they do things like come off a visit Monday. I said, put your feet either side of the box, spread your bum cheeks and bend over. I said, bollocks. I said kicked off, boom, boom, boom, ended up down the block. Three days, CC, back up on the wing. Do you know what I mean? Back up on the visit, feet either side of the box. So that ain't happening, mate. It ain't happening. It ain't happening. Kicks off again. And then that went on for a good few weeks until they just said, er, but you know, you got to, I said, I ain't doing it, mate. I ain't doing it. I ain't ever doing that. Yeah.  I ain't spreading my bum cheeks and bending over for no man.   And then they put me on closed visits.  Yeah, a few times. Like it was just, prison for me was just nonstop conflict with the screws. So at that, them, them stages of my life, it was all conflict. No, I weren't trying to make friends with the screws. And then, uh, all that did change a couple of years down and I met a couple of old villains from over South London. They sat me down and give me a bit of information. I started doing things a bit differently from that day. But to me, it was the screws and us.  If a screw comes to your cell like a friend, then you was a grass. So I wasn't into making friends with screws.  So I was very aggressive, very confrontational with people who thought they were senseless.   You speak to the screws. You speak to the screw. What's he saying outside your door for the half hour for? What are you speaking to a screw for half an hour for me? Like the fuck? Do you know what I mean? Like I could never understand why people befriended screws. And then obviously I started learning about parcels, products, all sorts of bits and pieces coming in and out of jail. And the only people bringing in was the screws. And that weren't until 96 that I found out. So up until, up to 96, I was just a mayhem. Just after I thought it, yeah. Yeah. And he thought it's a verse. After 96, that was it. It was different, different plan field. You know what I mean? Because it's always at the advantage. Yeah. It's just what I learned is this from a young, well, he's an older guy, I mean, Mickey Cullinan. And he said, he sat me down one day. He said, Mum, why'd you do this?     He said, Mum, look, no disrespect, mate. He said, but you're the only one staying here. They're going home and they're laughing about you when they go home. Right.   Then you stay here longer. How about your misses and your kid? Like, don't you care about them? And I was like, what are you talking about?  But I'm having this can't say this and this. And he went to me one day, said, Mum, I think you got it backwards, you know, he said, think of it like this.  Be good. So you can go home to be naughty again. He said, what's the point in being naughty and not going home? It doesn't make sense. I don't understand it. And then that was the one bit of information. And then, right, Mick was the guy that always grafted. He was always your graft, always doing everything right. So I was like, why'd you do this? What do you mean? He said, I'm out of my soul all day. I'm grafting. I'm doing this. I'm going now. I can go there. I can go there. I can do this. I can do that.  And I started thinking, oh, all just because he speaks with a couple of screws. So I started learning from Mick on how to sort of get my own way with the screws on the wing. And then things changed after that sentence. Next time I went back to prison, it was more about offering opportunities.  You wanted to be the don? There was a few people that are couple cross. I won't mention their names because they might not want their names exposed. I don't know where they are right now in their lives or what they're up to. But yeah, there was a couple. There was a couple. There was a couple. Parkers, there was a couple. There was a couple in Swellside couple in Maidstone.  Yeah, the guy who does the Netflix documentaries. See, I've got to apologize to this guy. Yeah, because me and my pal served him in Maidstone. We attacked him in Maidstone because we believed he was guilty of his charges.  What did they get charged with? Oh, I was all sorts of madness. It was, it was murders and all sorts of crazy stuff. But he got acquitted of it. So we can't talk about what he got acquitted from because we reacted because he thought he was guilty and he wasn't guilty. Do you know what I mean? And I've watched a couple of things that he's done on the telly now. Seems like he's going. And yeah, what I'm saying, he weren't that. He ain't that guy. Like he ain't me. He ain't another version of me. Whereas when he was away, I don't know why, but I just believed he put his accent on because he's always spoke like pretty calm. Like he's always been a calm guy. Like the way he would, the way he presented his shows and stuff. He's like that guy, but I always thought he was an actor. He's schemey little sky being kind of, he's not there. And just, and then when, when in the job, we attacked him.  I thought, I know that Giza. Because he's done 12 years for a mother. And you know what? He got, he got, he got some ag in there, you know, because I was, I was, I was, I was wild in 94, 95. I like wild, right? And he wasn't received well in Mason. I was in Mason with him and he wasn't received well.  Or I imagine every time he saw us coming or saw us on the exercise, I'd be thinking, fuck, here we go again. Do you know what I mean? And he hadn't done nothing. So I'd like to apologize to him and maybe contact me. Marvin at themarvinherbert.com. Email me if you can. Yeah. It'd be nice to catch up. There's some story in me to talk about that. Yeah. But you know what you do? You meet people along the way. You know, like I've had, I've had some conflicts throughout the prison system. Nothing really terrible, bad where you want to kill people. But you know, just fisticuffs growing up. Having a couple of that. I've never really, I've never had to throw hot water or oil over anybody. Do you know what I mean? I mean, I've always been the fighting man.  If there's two or three people in the cell, I'd go in the cell and have the fight in the cell with people, you know. I had Yami be on the podcast a couple of days ago. He speaks very highly of you. Yami's done over 46 years in the jail. Said one day you were just coming in, I think it was maybe in the 90s. He knew you. He knew your brother who's got a bit of a reputation. And he says, yeah, Mark's a real deal. He says, there was a couple of big guys.  And Yami thought you were going to get done.  Yami's got a couple of tools. And before he could get them in the shower, the two of them will line spark out in the floor.  He's not, but what a story, man. Great guy. Is this, what is this story? Yeah, that was, I can't, I can't. No one got knocked out on that story. No one knocked out. But what happened was there was a couple of brothers. There was a couple who was in Swellside, 93, 94. And basically what happened, I was a, I was a, how can I put it? I'm just one of them happy bubbly, having a laugh, giggle, getting a drink, getting a bit of gear, having a party prisoner. I wasn't a, I've got to be a good boy to get out prisoner. I was grafting out to get money from my misses, money for the kid. No, you're grafting, you're making money. You're trading bits and pieces. You're getting through your sentence, right?  I've got, I've had money, I'll get money sent out. I'll get what I wanted in jail. What was your weight in that like, were you still training? Or were you thin? Yeah, no, I was, I was pretty slim growing up as a kid, but I was always fit. I was always fit. And I was always- Wiry, sharp, fast. Always, I've always boxed. So I always done circuits. Always done things like, see, there's, men that I've come across with are more powerful than me. Men I've come across are stronger than me. But unfortunately, they haven't got the engine. And that's what keeps me or kept me victorious for putting on my journey because I had a good engine. So I could take an iodine. And if you couldn't last more than a couple of minutes, you're fucked, do you know what I mean?  But if after that you're fucked, then you're in trouble, do you know what I mean? Because I can take that. So my goal with people was always long-term. It wasn't always just a two-minute fight.  So you show to these two brothers and have a change of- I'll tell you, I'll tell you a story. So we've had a party. We've had a party on the wing. There's me, rest his soul. Fox, Shakespeare, Colin. I'll make me, I'll Colin. And Fox, Scatter. It was me, Fox, Scatter, Shakespeare, Colin, Burger and someone else. Anyway, we're in the party. We're taking loads of these. We're all raving, having the right mad night. All of a sudden it was can in. So the screws have come down to knock on the door, say, all the can in's been done. You lot are the last ones. Come and get your can in. So we've come out of the cell, out of our nuts, all buzzing, laughing, joking. Got that landing, got our can in, come back. So remember we've come back now, but it's bang up. So I've said to everyone here, it's a bit of puff. Because it's my party. It's a bit of puff. It's a bit of gear. See you in the morning. So he goes about our business. Couple of days later, I've run out of a bit of puff. So I'm thinking, who's got a puff on the wing? Ah, Burger. Burger will have a bit of puff. So I run up. I said, burger's fair, but you've got a bit of puff, mate. He's like, yeah, yeah. I said, like, I said, gives a bit of puff so I'll get my visit. Now, what I meant by that, yeah, was gives a bit of puff. I'll give you a little bit of puff back when I get a visit, right? That wasn't give me a bit of puff back. I'm going to pay you 20 pounds when I get a visit, right? So in my head, because we're all trading little bits, I thought it gives a couple of joys. I'll give back to him when I get a visit. Not a problem. So all of a sudden, I've come back on my visit one day, gone to my cell, and my door's gone.  Like, because only the cats get people knocking on the door as soon as they come off the business.  So he's like, what's the matter? So he's going to be, have you got that bit of thing? I was like, I actually forgot at that stage that I got to give him something back, yeah? So I went, what thing? It's like, no money for the bit of puff. I don't buy a game in jail. Yeah. Only cats buy a game in jail. Do you know what I mean? We trade everything in jail. You don't buy it. I don't, you don't go, you've got any puffy eyes under a quid. You don't do it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I've done it. Don't get me wrong, but it's not protocol. Like, you do it to get on your feet when you get to a first jail. I'll give you another story about that in a minute. So basically, I've gone to him. He's coming to sell, like, what's happening with that thing? I was like, what thing? He's like, a bit of scratch. So for what? He said, a bit of puff. And I was like, well, he gave me a puff the other day. I was like, ah, well, you come to my cell. I said, go upstairs. I'll come up and see you in a minute, mate.  So I carried on doing what I was doing. And then I'm saying to my mate, my mate went to me, well, he was at the party the other day, isn't it? I was like, yeah, do you know what?  What am I paying him for? So I run up the stairs, yeah? I've gone to himself. I said, bro, what are you playing at? He said, what? I said, you come down to my cell after my visit. And you ask me about where's your scratch? I said, you got a party party the other day. I said, you got a bit of gear. You got a bit of puff. You got a pill. Are you paying for that?  I said, how can you tell me I've got to pay you for the puff, mate? But well, I'm sort of... I was very irate when I was a kid. So that was done a lot higher. So I would have been screaming at him. When I'm talking, I was just screaming at people. All of a sudden he's looked over my shoulder. As he's looked over my shoulder, I've gone like that.   I said, we've got to do me over the back of the head with that.  So I just heard a bit of commotion.  I said, well, you didn't know it was me. You're trying to tell me you didn't know it was me.  And then we had a bit of a screaming match. He's like, well, you've been like that. Well, you've been like that.  And we're like, I can't remember exactly what God said. But there was a bit of a confrontation anyway.  I can't remember what I said exactly. But we've pied. And then we've gone to the gym because everyone used to go gym on a certain date. So we've gone to the gym the next day. But then he was allowed to box in the gyms. So when we've gone down to the gym, him and his brother, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I just thought, well, do you know what? Let's see how we, yeah, yeah. I said, look, all this chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. You keep giving them back. You're going to knock me out. Yeah. I said, put the gloves on me. Let's have it. It's keeping simple, isn't it? He's like, yeah. I said, yeah. And that obviously he don't want to put them on. Right. But now the jowl's got behind him. Come on, muscles, man. Can't let his skinny, you know, no, no. Because now I'm only little. I'm skinny, isn't it? So how do you know the skinny Margot boy to you like that? No, man.  And I'm saying, bro, I don't care if he knocked me out. You can knock me out. No ill feeling. Probably sure. Come on. Let's have it. Have it.  I said, what? You're going to be vomiting.   Anyway, I asked him about 15, 20 minutes he's been put on him. So he's gone, boom, boom, boom. He's, that's put the gloves on. So he's put the gloves on. He's hay making all over the gaff. I'm bobbing, weaving, bub, bub, bub, bub. Do you know what I mean? And yeah, went to work on him. Done me bits. And I don't, I think that put me up the ladder a little bit within that environment because he was, these brothers was sort of feared by a lot of the young kids in the jowl. Do you know what I mean? Because they were big lumps. Do you know what I'm saying to you about? I wasn't ever scared of people. I was always confrontational. So you had to prove yourself to me. I'm not going to listen to other people.  It's not a problem, but you have to prove that to me. I don't take someone else's words because they say you're hard. I'm going to go, yeah, he's hard. Would you shake that hand if they beat you? Feels weird, I would go back. Yeah, it's one of them. When it's over, it's over. And do you know what I'm saying? Would I shake his hand? I don't know because I've never been put in that position. I've never been in that position. Yeah, I'm one of them people. I won't give up. I won't give up. What was Yami like? Yami's like my brother, man. He's just, they're just wild. What is with Yami? Yami's, he's like my old self on steroids. If that makes sense. Like he was in prison. Yeah, he was a bigger figure than I was, right? In prison, because in prison, he made an impact in certain gels and he'd done certain things. So he was just wild. He and my brother were like hit men, weren't they? They just take contracts on everybody in the dispersal. So it was just wild. He was just off the hook. And he, yeah. Over 46 years and we had them on the podcast. When he told his story, man, it's difficult as well, even though the damage that he'd done to him, he was abused and stuff as a character. Yeah, they made a powerful man like this. The painful stuff, man. And we met and we've spoke a few times, man. And you can't help but smile when you speak to him on the phone. He's such a bubbly character. He's been through so much, don't you know what I mean? He's like, I think it's like myself. He's worked himself through the insanity back to normal age, you know what I mean? And he's making himself whole rather than just a product of his environment, you know? Because then that much, that bird does, it does have an impact. It really does have an impact, you know what I mean? Like you can't not go through all of that prison sentence and not be affected. Like that's a hell of a lot of bird, man. Do you know what I mean? Like I don't think I've done a lot of bird, but it's affected me and it affected me when I was a kid growing up in all the sort of unexpected of places, do you know what I mean? Like because you don't understand you're insane when you're going through all that stuff. You don't realize what you're doing as being insane. So your normalization of the crazy stuff is what makes the transition sort of made it easier for me, I think, because it was easy for me to say, fuck, I was wrong. Fuck, I should have listened. Fuck, I can't do that no more. Do you know what I mean? Like you get to a point where you know what's the point. There's no point in it. Do you know what I mean? Like when you grow up trying to fit in, you're trying to make a name for yourself, trying to make a future for yourself. There's a point to taking a risk. There's a point to the cutting corners. There's a point. Do you know what I mean? Because there's a chance you're going to make it. But when you're sort of 40 years of age, 35 years of age, 40 years of age, and you've got kids, you've actually really got to consider what it is you're doing and how you're doing it, rather than just going out on a limb and egotistically doing things because it pleases other people, you know. And that was the madness about living that world, that we lived it for everybody else, for everybody else to make us feel good with that emotional gratification, you know. In 93, you get done for robbery. What was the robbery? That was a security van. Ah, that's, uh, 1993, July. We got nicked on a bit of work we weren't even supposed to do. That was a bit of a mad one. But that was, I think, that sentence there was the one sentence that actually changed the direction of my life. How come? Because I think if I never got that sentence, I might have been a junkie. Do you know what I mean? I might have been a junkie because I was partying, I was sniffing, I was drinking, I was intoxicating myself with any substance, but a but speed, I would never take speed for some reason. I couldn't, I had to go to sleep. I was always one of the people that had to sleep. So speed wasn't the thing I took and vitamins wasn't the thing I took. Acid wasn't the thing I took. So stimulants and sedatives is what I sort of worked on, like really aggressive stimulants and really... Bring you down, yeah. So that was my world. That's what I lived for. So when I got the five, that was my introduction to the gangster world. That was when I thought, right, I'm a gangster. That's it. I'm going to be nicked for a van. I'm nicked. We're going to Scrubs and on the way to Scrubs, my co-defendant, Timmy. I said, Tim, that's it, mate. I said, when we get here, no bollocks. Anybody will do this or do that. So it was just, we're too young, wire-wise. We're lied about our age. So I'm not going. This is the mindset I had. I'm not going to a wire-wise, nicked for a van. You're mad. I'm a man now.  So I lied about my age to go to Scrubs. Yeah. And it was just, well, I'll do. I'll just go through a few stories. Well, in my brain now, right? So this was the mindset I had when I was, so I'm 20 years of age, nicked for an arm robbery. My bird's nine months pregnant. I'm nicked on the Wednesday. My son's born on the Sunday. So now I'm in jail. My head's been fucked. I've been smoking, partying, taking loads of these. Me and Mrs. Hadramas split up. I've been nicked.  So now I'm in Scrubs. So the first night I'm in Scrubs, I'm banged up. I can't remember his name.  But he had the most immaculate cell I had ever been in, up until that point. And all his bits and pieces, yeah. It was like a house. And I've never seen a cell done up like that. You see a couple of them in wire wires, but nothing like the men's jails, right? So I was like, I banged up with him. And I banged up for the night. I'm lying on the bed, right? So now this was, I'm lying down. I've gone, I said, hey, mate, I said, any chance my Cody can come in this cell tomorrow? What do you mean? I said, can I have this cell for me and my Cody?  Can't see, I've done it up. I ain't moving. I was like, all right, all right, sweet, not a problem. So I waited the next day I've come out. So Mim, Tim, now we're talking, how are we going to get banged up together? So I'm going to try and work our way out to get banged up together. And all the cells are taken. We're on A-wing in scrubs on the freeze. No, we was on the fours at first. So we're trying to get a cell together. Can't get it anyway. So Tim's like, I'll just speak to you. My cellmates are tramping. I don't want to be in here. We've got to get your cell. We've got to get your cells. So I was like, all right. So speak to your cellmate over banger, right? So I went, all right, sweet, sweet, sweet. So I banged up and put that story on pause for a minute. Back in the day, in prison, you used to have a Robert Rambler radio. And they used to take PP-9s, which are square batteries like that. Like they're square all the way around, right? Three inches all the way around. People used to put them in pillowcases to whack people on the head with them as a weapon, right? So we're banged up. Now this geezer must be in about 20, 30. Like it was a proper face in the jail. Everyone knew him. He had all the bits, all these can't in. Like it was a proper settled prison. But what I call institutionalized prisoner, all right? So banged up now. So then it's a lunch bang up and we're coming out at 1.30. So I remember banged up behind the door. I was just laid down. I thought, how am I going to get these keys, right? So I said, do you know what, mate? I ain't being funny. I said, me and my pal need to bang up with each other. I said, you need to move out of this cell. And he said, listen, mate, I'm telling you now. Yeah, I ain't moving out. I said, if you want out of me, you got to move out, mate. I'll tell you what we're going to do now. I'll tell you what we're going to do and I've jumped up. So he said, you guys sleep tonight, come.  He's like, what do you think about it? Do it now. You come.  And he's like, we've been all up for a week. I said, get up. Come on up. I just confronted him. Anyway, kind of long story short.  Don't worry. You and your pals can have this cell. It's not a problem. It's not a problem. So I was like, sweet. So I've laid down, waited for the door to open. So the door's open, 1.30. I've gone into himself. I said, well, I think he's going to have it. You know, I think he's going to have it. All of a sudden, oh, but can he read?  What's all of that? So we've been called into the office. So I've gone into the office, screws, four screws in there. So listen, this ain't YPs here. You know, but I said, what are you on about? He said, look, you're going to get yourself hurt here. I said, in what way? He said, you can't be threatening people. These are big men. And you're going to get yourself hurt. I said, I don't know what you're talking about, God, what on earth are you going on about? He said, you're threatening yourself, mate. I said, for what? I said, I ain't threatening him. I asked him if he can even bang up together. He was like, well, listen, that ain't going to be south of there.  Give it all that chat. You've got to be careful there. Men this, men that. Men this. Oh, no, sweet, not a problem. So I've gone back in the cell. The keys is sitting on the end of the bed. I said, do you think you're clever? It's way too ghastly tonight.  You're like, mate, I'm moving. I'm moving. You can have the cell. You and your mate can have the cell. And that was my introduction to the scrubs. And then it was just every day after that, every single day. No matter who it was, screws, if a screw got cheeky, I'll try to drag him myself or punch him in the face. I was down in the block. You know, we weren't. That makes sense to mention everybody's names, but there was a lot of boys from Stonebridge, Halston, Willsden, a couple from South London, you know. Everyone was in scrubs at them times. And I was just like a tornado. And then one afternoon, a couple of the older boys have called me up and said, is your dad's name Barry? And I was like, yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, your dad's my pal. Your dad does this. Your dad does that. So from that day on, I had a lot of the boys from Stonebridge and Halston on my side. So I had a bit of a decent following because now I'm a bad man's son in jail. Do you know what I mean? And the bad man laid everybody on zest. So I was a decent little... And you were making a reputation of yourself. How were you feeling when you were starting to build up that reputation that you were fearless and up for anything? Powerful, powerful, powerful. Within six months of being in the men's jail. And I'm not saying this to make myself look big or bad. I'm just saying it because this was how it was. It's just the truth. People don't know me, know me. We distinguished quickly who the junkies were, who the sensible people were, and who the governors were. So the governors we was in bed with because we knew their sons or their cousins, their nephews, their brothers. We knew people that knew all the villains. So we was accepted because we were the wild bunch of the kids. So all the gangsters was on the wing. They looked after us like... Because we were gang. Do you know what I mean? And all the raggers knew me because of my dad. And it was just one of them things that... The bully come out. So that was it now. Like I'm feared. I'm respected. I'm known. So now I started making rules. So if you took gear or you took certain things, you weren't allowed to have it on my wing without having an egg or without giving certain people products. Otherwise it was egg. And then it was just one of them scenarios where it's just anything to create trauma. So if someone's got a parcel, who's got it? Who's got a parcel? Like, go and see him. Brother, what are you doing with that parcel?  And we talk about it. Have the rare, you can take their parcel.  And I was... I'm embarrassed to say that I was a bully for the wrong reasons. Do you know what I mean? Like it was just... I can't say it's even hard to explain it. It was just... I refused. Although I took drugs, I disrespected junkies. I don't know... I suppose it's an association with my parents or my elders or whatever.  And they just give me the ump. So I just pick on them.  You bet it's because you were seeing yourself in them. Maybe. Maybe. You know what I mean? They didn't want to accept it. You had become what you'd been seeing your whole life as it had addiction problems, anger, frustration. You just became a product to your environment. See, you don't even realise it. Yeah. Yeah, you are. And that was it. And then obviously because of all the violence, the screws, it was just... The reputation grew and grew. Because I was just fearless.  Because I was going to fight every day down the block, you know? So it was just one of them things.  You know?  That's all it was. It was just like getting through the days with madness. What did you do after that, Faith? After the robbery? Did you have a spare loot, the person? Yeah. From 97... From 97 to 2002 was just like a whirlwind of criminal behaviour. Just madness. Like that's... I think there was... I don't know. I kind of remember how many shootings we were under investigation for. How many we got nick for. There was just so many, but I remember... What I can say, there was a list with 24 people on the list and 19 people on the list had been shot or killed. Do you know what I mean? And that was all the investigation, the conspiracies. I was nick for all of that. And then the Dowel Creek and thing. So it was just constant. In 2002 you were charged with murder, conspiracies, shootings, Mac 10 with a silencer, body armour. And you were expecting 36 years. In 2002 it was you... We must have been still wild then. But what happened when you were getting charged? What were you thinking? It didn't go mad. Because back then it was more of a... It's not what I know, it's what they can prove. You had a time in your life where you were going to accept to be getting life at some point? Yeah, I was going to get life. It was what was just... It's happening, isn't it? You get nicked for them shootings. You're either getting not guilty or you're going away forever. Did you enjoy the jail at some point to thinking it was an escape for you? It might sound crazy for people, but if it was... I always regretted it. I always hated being in jail. I wasn't one of them people that needed to be in jail when I was skinned. I had friends like that. I was like, why would you do that? I said, I'd rather be in jail than be out here. I could never understand that. Do you know what I mean? Because I'd rather be out on the road when I'm skinned. So I can make some money. Yeah. I can't make money. Well, you can make money in jail, but not as much as you can make on the out. You know, it's just one of them things that never really stuck with me.  I can't say I thought I was fucked. I actually thought, do you know what? Yeah, I was fucked. I was fucked. When it says to me, you're getting 36 years, that's when I thought I'm fucked. I'm fucked. And it was being fucked that made me move on to asking the older lot for a slot on the transport. So I asked the older lot for a slot on the transport so we could feed all the co-defendants throughout the sentences considering I was getting 36 years and they can't send five grand over. I couldn't believe it. So that was the penultimate turning point on the criminal fraternity in England. But up until that point, it was just madness. You know? But yeah, it was 2002. That was another little rollercoaster ride. So that was all confrontational, very violent that sentence. There's non-stop violence all the way through that sentence. And then, yeah, I think a couple of screws got nicked. One of my barristers got nicked, got a nine. A screw got two years. A screw got four years. You know, that was just before the... How come? Well, living again in prison, because prior to that sentence, all my other sentences have been based on just fighting and violence. So that sentence 2002 was more on making money because I was going away for 36 years. So I needed to get an infrastructure in place to make money to pay for the next 36 years. And that was just what I'd done. So it was alleged that I was bringing in a Keerpuff, ounces of brown, ounces of white, MDMA, and vodka. I think one of the screws got nicked with eight bottles of vodka. A Keerpuff and other bits and pieces. But that was something that was supposed to have been coming in allegedly every month. When they raided one of the wings, they found a freezer, a chest freezer, full of chickens. And in every chicken, it was half a bar. Yeah, because that's what they had to do apparently to hide the path, that's put it in the chickens. And then when they'd come on the wing, I don't know what happened. Someone must have took the chicken out, cooked the chicken, and not realised who it was. I was like, well, I'm in, I'm stunk out in the yard, thinking they didn't find the chickens. But I don't know how that came about, that they found the chicken, the puff in the chicken. But yeah. How does it make you feel as well that your barrister got a nine, some of the screws got a two and a three, who probably get families? The barrister broke my arm because that was something I begged him not to do. I said, please don't do this. I mean, don't go and see these people. Don't do it. Don't feel you have to. Please don't do it.  But he was a good mate of mine, George. He's got it about that.  Sensitivity about you and a kindness and a genuine, you're very genuine. I believe you would be there in the heartbeat if anybody had picked up the phone and phone, did you know what I mean? So that was my problem going up. And it's the same thing that happened in prisons. So I got into prisons and it just kicked off. Or people were getting bullied and I'd support the bully. Do you know what I mean? Or I'd support the person that was getting bullied so we couldn't get bullied. I was just my floor, I'd imagine, that sensitive side of me. Are you involved in any prison riots? Yeah. There was every prison I went in, there was a riot. I think I wrote these down the other day. I'm going to get this down for you. Right. So the first, the first riot I was involved in was trying to think there was a little one in the wire-wise that we were in. But the first actual proper off, out of control, kicking off, fighting blades, screws running around the jail was high point 94. So that was your robbery years when you get done for the robbery? Yeah, that's what I was saying. That was the sentence that made an impact on my character and my reputation. So what happened? I got the five and then I went high point. And then I went high point. So I've got no high point, which was known as being knife point back then. So the story was, I've turned up high point. I've got no gear on me, no path, no nothing. So I'm fresh. I'm waiting for a visit to come in. So now I want a bit of path because you've been puffed and do what we did. So I've tried to find the local dealers in the jail. Anyway, I found a couple of them and I've said to them, do me a favor, could you give me a bit of puff and so I'll get my visit. I'll double it up and I'll look after you. Do you know what I mean? But I ain't got nothing to give you for it now. So I was like, no, mate, no, mate.  Obviously I see myself as being sensible. So whenever I approach people, I approach them on the level that look, I'm going to return whatever you don't think I'm buying it. I don't want to buy it, but I'll double up whatever you give me. Anyway, cut a long story short, they swerve me this little firm. So then in the back of my mind, everything's going minute.  See how they shape up when I flood the joe, ain't it? So a couple of weeks later or a week later, a few of my pals will come up. So for me, my parcels were standard, right? It was half ounce of weed, half ounce of puff, a quart of a brand, a quart of a white and 10 ease. That was what I had on my parcel. So I got them in and then basically, because High Point was very open, you could walk about and do whatever you like. So it was easy to sell gear in it. So I got a bit more gear and what I'd done, because the geezers that were selling the puff wouldn't give me no puff when I first got there. What I'd done used to get, work out how much was it? We used to get 30 joeys out of a gram, 30, 10 pound joeys out of a gram. So what I used to do, I used to sell a quart of a gram for 50 quid. I think a quart of a gram got you, say, like 10, five or 10 joeys, something like that, right? So they'd buy the quart of a gram because it gives them double the amount of gear than what they'd do if they were buying a bag. So then basically, I've done that for a couple of weeks. So none of the people selling bags in the jail could sell any gear. So then a couple of geezers come and say, what do you want to buy, money? I said, I'll ask you for a bit of puff when I got there.  I said, like, you can't sell no gear. What do you want me to do? Well, I've got to stop selling gear so you can sell some gear. Is that what you asked me to do, mate? I said, come on, do what you're doing, isn't it? Like, I've done what I've done and you told me no for a bit of puff. I'll see you later. Anyway, cut a long story short. A couple of weeks gone by, I had a young queen. Shit, I can't remember his first name. Might have even been Ian. Ian Quinn, young Skars kid. But he was having it with me because he knew me brother from another jail. So he was a gear then. So I let him look after the gear and he'd run around doing all the bits and pieces. Anyway, one day he's been robbed, right? So he's been robbed. So me, Gary Wilson, me, Gary Wilson, Steve Mahoney, and me, Gary Wilson, Steve Mahoney, and not Steve because Steve Mahoney's my cousin but it was another Steve Mahoney from Liverpool. I'm not talking about me cousin, I'm talking about Steve Mahoney. So it was me, Steve Mahoney, Gary Wilson, and one other Mark something. I can't remember his second name. Anyway, basically Ian's been robbed. So now I'm asking him who robbed you and he said, I don't know but I can remember their trainers. If I see their trainers again, I would never forget their trainers. That's where he's coming in this go-over. So now we've got to go on, I think there's two wings with something like 60 cells on each wing. So now I want to find out who's robbed my gear, right?   Anyway, kind of a very long story short. We run through everyone's cell that we need to go through. When we come off the wing, I think where we were going next we would have found the trainers but before we got there, all the all the fellas have come out of the wing with tools and expecting us all to run off but because his knife point he was called they had a metal workshop so you can make weapons there. So I had like, you know the police truncheons. So you get the truncheon so you've got to fit here what you hold and you've got the truncheon there like that then you've got a knife there. So you can block and stab and punch. So it's like a knuckle duster, stabber and a blocker. All in one. Yeah. And then we might add a sword.  They're swords.  No, you make them in the jowl. You can make it all in the jowl. Where did you stash them at, mate? In your, there's loads of different places. So depending on the length of the blade, you could take off, well, you've got the U-bend in your sink but then you've got a bit that goes down the sink so you can take the U-bend off and then put, it's like you get a paper clip. Right, so you put a hoop through that paper clip and then you put the paper clip on the top of the tube. So the tube's like that, the paper clips are hanging like that and then the blade is inside the tube but in, it's how it is playing it. Right, so you've got the string. Right, you've got the string. That hooks over the edge and then that sits in the pipe and while it's sitting in the pipe, your blade can sit in the pipe. I don't know if I can explain that. So then basically, when you unscrew it, you pull the paper clip up and then you've got the knife. So you can hide them anywhere and then in those days, you've got to move your bed so you put them up the bed leg, screw the bottom of the bed leg back on, do you know what I mean? You can take your lights, you've got the light, you can unscrew the light. You've got these three pins. You've got three pins in the screw. So you get a bit of plastic, you melt the plastic, you stick the plastic into the pinhole and then it goes hard and then you just turn it and then you just end up making screwdrivers out of plastic. So you're going to hide them everywhere. There's a million and one places to hide stuff in business. You can hide everything and wherever you don't hide, you keep cheats. So I used to have a little blade that I had in my cheats every day. At them days, you didn't have the phone though but you just had your parcel and that, you ask. But yeah, I had them anywhere or what you do is where you associate. So where you walk around the yard, there's loads of concrete so you just pull the mother away from the concrete and put your blade down there. So you've got blades all parked up all around the place so you just run and get one if you need it.  Yeah, we went around terrorizing everybody to church for these trainers and then all the geysers come out of the wing to have it and it was just like a running battle. On the south side it was. Yeah, on the south side because you had north side and south side.  That's when I went parkers. But that was the first riot and then when was the second one? The second one was was it Swellside? Yeah because we had Bedford, Swellside, Haydn. Yeah, we had one in Swellside. There was a mini one, not a riot but there was a mini little kickoff in the man. So the next one the next one was Swellside. So I'm in Swellside. It was after the fight with them brothers. There was a little Irish firm on the wing and basically I got on with the Irish lot but a couple of the Irish lot was doing business. I don't know what the conflict started over but there was a conflict with the black lot and there was a conflict with the Irish lot and there was a bit of conflict but because I didn't like some of the black kids I sort of palied up with the Irish lot and then basically because I had a riot with the two brothers the Irish lot believed that the two brothers was really hard so I'm saying to them they're not mate they're not, they're not hard mate trust me you'd be able to do them don't be scared of their size come on man I've had it with a pair of them and I'll sort of give them a bit of confidence and they just come out and it just kicked off on the wing and they called it a race riot but it wasn't it was just someone had a product someone didn't want to pay for it and it just kicked off and I was instigating it gentlemen just instigating that one what was it like when you got out when you got a five you were expecting a 36 wreck you got a five and came out how was your mindset then I've got to get out of here I was actually get out of England because I don't know if you remember on the third podcast I said that when I went to bed that night before I got the sentence I don't know what it was it was a spirit guide I don't know what it is and he just said you're not going to do no more than five years in prison these voices I'll listen to them I always knew I wouldn't have to do that bird I always thought I'd be on the run so when I actually got released it was like what is this voice I keep hearing what is this voice and then the voice at that specific time said you know you've got to leave this country so I was like yeah don't worry I'm going and I had to convince Zoe we've done it eventually but yeah it was just I had to get out of the country so when I got out of prison I had to get out of the country that was my only aim and goal so I see my license and I've got to leave this country because this is what I'm saying to you I'll get information from the universe and I know I've got to do it do you know what I mean the problem prior to my transition was I focused on the wrong products do you understand I was focusing on criminal activity violent activity, dangerous activity when I needed to focus on helping activity, growing activity positive activity now I do the latter do you know what I mean my life's going in a phenomenal position in a phenomenal direction so I know I had the wrong products at the previous stage of my life even today there's a big difference in you from today you're more calm, fresher you're relaxed compared to the first one the first one you're kind of on edge, not on edge you're a bit emotional I don't know if it's because you know your story was going out to the masses I think it was more about talking about my parents do you know what I mean because it was I never want to put my mum and dad over in a bad light because they've done the best they could with what they had and because we was growing up in an environment that was very racist and very ignorant we was all fucked from the start to be fair do you know what I mean I just wanted to put my mum and dad over in a bad light like I've always said I've always loved my dad and I've always loved my mum unquestionably and I don't blame them for what I went through because I know I made the choices to do what I've done I know my mum and my dad didn't want me to be a criminal they didn't want me to go and do what I've done because all my other brothers and sisters by one are all legitimate I mean I was the only one that was off the hook so I know they didn't want that for me and they tried their utmost to prevent me becoming the person I did and they failed in that and that's all I can hold them accountable for is failing, controlling alunity how was that talking about all the prisons you've been in looking back on reflecting on it all how do you feel do you know what it's just a journey I don't feel anything about it now because every sentence I went through my first sentence I went in I met some South London people I was in Rochester I was in Huntercom I was in Felton I was bubbly, grafting I was in with the car fees the burglars, the robbers, the drummers and I was just mingling becoming that person I became I was learning the best from the best in that environment and the worst of the best the sickest of the best I was learning what to avoid and what not to avoid so it was just all learning a learning institute I used it for and it was just every year it was progression for me so these little out there the burglars had no value I want to be with this one these little aggravated burglars I don't really want to wrap anybody up I'm not into that I want to hurt people, I just want to get some money and then do this, ah the jump ups the jump up delivery vans, ah they're sick but then it's fucking headache selling all the products after it's a load of bullets so then you don't know how much you're going to get what am I going to do how about nicking the snap so the snap we started nicking the snap for a little while we used to get five five hundred and forty pound a box I believe I think it was five hundred and forty pound a box of fags so you get, I think it was five thousand, I'm not sure how many you got in a box but you got, back then it was five hundred and seven pound a box so it might have been five thousand snap for five hundred pound, it's crazy but yeah, we used to get five hundred and seven pound a box of snaps or we used to get all the delivery snap delivery trucks and then it went up to the money delivery trucks and Prism was always an occupational hazard so going through the sentences was just helping me climb the ladder, that's all it was doing and every job I went to I learned more from the higher up the ladder criminals, so Prism was just a learning institute for me how did you feel being on the podcast the first time and making world headlines on the world news about your story being out there and being connected to Daniel and Kenahan how is that story for you because you've been in the papers for mother guns all the fucking heavy stuff today and having a positive story well that's the thing right because it was an absolute milestone for the Irish media to write something positive about me and what they said was gangsta turns advocate and then the fore pays right up and it really shows that I have actually changed and that I mean it and that people were listening and people were paying attention and people are actually acknowledging the fact that I have been through so much trauma and it was an excuse to get away or do what I've done but I've done it because that was what I had to do but I've changed I've turned my life around I'm fighting everything I can fight to help others grow you know so it's a win-win so I was blown away I was blown away I emailed the journalist thanking her for her spread in the paper and the fact that she put me and Daniel over in such a positive light you know because like I said like without Daniel I wouldn't be walking I wouldn't be here like people don't understand like he never financially paid me to do anything or done anything so I could live and grow and do everything like the mindset the conversations not paying for everything in the bar running up bills just assistance in living supporting mindset when I wanted to get my leg chopped off I was sitting down with Daniel and I was in so much pain I was suffering so much I just wanted to get this leg chopped off and I said I'm going to have it chopped off and he said don't and obviously he's looking at me retrospective of what I've been through looking at me thinking wow look you can't get chopped my leg off so I'm saying to him like once it's gone it's gone because I he said once it's gone it's gone forever he said Marv man give it a year just give it a year see what you're being a year and then I'm so glad I did do you know what I mean like because I don't know what I'll do without a leg now I'm saying to you but it's just I think about it all the time now although he gets so much bad press he's done nothing but helped me become the man I am today and I've got nothing but gratitude for that man and admiration because we all get bad press in it look what I said about me in the paper if you believe everything they said about me in the paper why are you telling me I'm such a fantastic guy why am I such an amazing human being how what I'm the only human being that can have this transition I'm the only human being that has this badness no we've all got history we've all got skeleton you know and the media has a funny way of putting things out to make people look worse than they actually are for media purposes you know but we're all men, we're all humans we all have emotions, we all have hearts we all have a life and responsibilities and what I learnt from Daniel is how to be a man and whether people want to say bad things about him that's their business but I always thought a man had to be hard a man had to be violent, a man had to be this a man had to be that people like Daniel told me no a man doesn't get angry I mean a man someone you can be lying a man who's there for you a man someone you can who will support you a man someone who's there to give you advice like men and men that's what a man is like a man's full of responsibility and men are not wild that's kids they're young men, they're adolescents a man's by definition not by opinions you're not looking after yourself you're not looking at the ones you love then you're not that man you're not that man if your family are relying on you and you're supporting everybody and you're protecting everybody and you're feeding everybody then you're that man then you're that man if you can sit down in any crisis any situation any drama and navigate your people through that issue if you're the man that wants to stab, shoot and kill people and go to prison then you're not that man do you understand, so what is a man a man so it needs to be on the street every day for his son or his daughter a man who's got to be there every day for their family a man is someone who's going to be there to support you in your time of need that's what a man is, you can't do that from prison do you know what I mean and these little things that Daniel instilled in me has made me become the man I am today now I don't know what people's opinions are of Daniel but I know he's got some skeletons I've got some skeletons but fundamentally he is a good man who's been transcending to a perfect place since I've known him he's never spoke to me about criminal activities anything I've ever spoken to Daniel about is about legal products it's about growth, it's about infrastructure it's about sort of how do you put it, it's just principles and morals I used to believe that all the people in London Liverpool, Manchester I've grown up with, loved me they loved me unquestionably, that's what I believed they all loved me and we've all got mad respect and until I met Daniel I never realised that it was all used in me do you know what I mean how do they love you if they're going to let you risk your liberty and go to prison that's not love that's not a friend what friend would you go and put in prison what friend would you go and risk their life for who would you go and ask to risk their life for you who would you ask to do that for you I'm like no one because you've got, they can see you're friends they're your friends so you're not going to ask your friends to do that are you I was like wow this geezer is deep and the more I got to know him I was realising that a lot of the stuff that they've printed about him is bullshit just like the stuff they've printed about me is bullshit and I just hope and pray that someday soon it all comes out and he gets reborn like me and it's not a religious thing it's just a spiritual thing you know because he's an amazing man he really is an amazing man I admire him more than any other man I've come across in my life because when we spoke on the first podcast when you spoke about the time you were shot the emotion that you had speaking about that no one came to visit you that really affected you like you couldn't imagine you know and it's what I don't want to do is get emotional every time I speak about a certain product so it's when you're prepared see even when I go to say it I start feeling myself well enough because it's just deep man when you're prepared when you are prepared when you, you, you or anybody else when you personally are prepared to die to go to prison forever to get stabbed, get shot, get beaten for that other person like that's what I'm going to do for you I'm going to sit in prison for you I'm going to sit in prison for you because you're my pal and you're helping me out and I'm not going to let that happen to you so when I realized that I was just being used I felt hurt not only because I was used but the fact that I was just like a prostitute just thrown to the gut for nothing no that's the it's not meaning something to someone that hurts do you know what I mean, it's not as much anything like that I never meant nothing to them I was prepared to die for that person I was literally prepared to die for that person like I'm prepared to die for that person I'm going to get shot at I'm going to get stabbed people going to boot my door off but I don't give a fuck because you're my pal and then realizing they're not your pals like I'm going to say it I can't remember if I said it in my last one but the one thing that I've done it was that I was driving home from the hospital one day and I've seen one of my oldest friends who I've been in so much dirt with we've been involved in so much bollocks from when we were kids and the only reason this man could be where he is on that day is because of me and my pals looking after him surrounding him like a fucking force field and living in his life and I see him and I pulled up all happy to see him and I was like what's happening darling you alright mate and he's like what's happening I was like straight away weren't the welcome I was supposed to get I was like what do you mean I was like fuck I'm sorry what are you up to anyway there was no come with me we're going to look after you like where have you been there's no caring conversation all of a sudden his brothers called him he said hey darling your breakfast is getting cold he went mum I've got to go and have me breakfast I'm sorry mate I'll give you a bell son I'll speak to you later I was I was like wow wow like and my pals dead for you my other pals in prison for a long time for you there's people that have been stabbed and cut and beaten for you there's lives with ruined for you for you no for no one else for you and your breakfast is getting cold you horrible cunt of a man and I thought do you know what leave you to it mate and that was the day where I sort of severed my emotional ties to the criminal fraternity yeah and I think for anybody watching it's a good example to understand that in that life of crime there's no loyalty no there's no love there's no trust the only the only loyalty is to the pound note okay the loyal to the the only law to do that the law to do that the law to take they're the best thing since last bed until they take when it's time for them to give they're not about it they're not let's touch on the things that you do for the kids helping others putting a bit of positivity back into their life kids not to make the same mistake you've done if anybody's going to listen to anyone they're going to listen to you because you've lived that life so how did you get in about trying to help the youth that just happened naturally basically it's just I've always done it basically it started off in Spain MGM and started for the boxing and it was I've just got away with the youngsters I suppose about sounding too cliche-ish I was one of them hard nut violent scary type growling intimidating people that kids want to and I don't know why they want to me but they really did so I had an influence over the youngsters to listen to me to do the training a certain way so I had the youngsters doing training like professional boxers jumps and so on the elite level of amateurs was the elite they went on to win the Spanish national champions in lightweight middleweight cruiserweight and heavyweight they've done that within two years of boxing they run the national championships in Spain so it's always been in me to bring out the best in others that's just something I've always done I've always helped others it's just a quality skill that I've had so I always get involved in adding value to people so people that know me people that watch people that will comment they'll say yeah it's true Marvel's that guy I'm adding to your party I'm adding to your life I'm adding to your product I'm adding something to it I'm not there to take from anyone the helping aspect of me has always been part of my sort of build up I think you've got big plans for the future you're coming to a documentary with me the ayahuasca one we're taking five of the not ace men in the UK how are you feeling about that it's just going to answer all my questions and hopefully we're going to get it raw footage and everyone's going to see the dark side of ayahuasca what it does and what you've got to go through painful journey because I'm saying it now that I do believe it's just going to answer all my questions and tell me that I know I was right sort of thing because it's mad I get told stuff and when things are happening when they're going to happen and it happens so I believe that I'm going to connect to the universe for the first and final time it's going to be the one and only time that I've ever connected to it and then that's it there's no looking back to it it's a painful experience man I was you're saying you'll thrive on a pink because you've always right it was a pink that's what I'm saying to you I'm the opposite so if it was painful I was involved if it was stressful I was involved if it was frightening I was involved and I had to show you I'm not scared so if someone says to be mild as 30 kids coming down here to serve you up on Friday I'm like yeah sweet coming in let's go and see like I'm not running do you know what I mean like there's been situations even the prison stories right in the man about 15-20 black geese come out to serve me up one day rushing me with blades and all that I never run do you know what I mean I just stood there ready come on me Mr. Roberts and I have a couple of people and they just froze do you know what I mean like I've had it with 5, 10, 20 screws I've had it with 15, 20 police officers I've had it with 5, 10 people 15 people 14 people I've been stabbed, shot, beaten I've done it all so the physical aspect of pain doesn't consider is the consideration for me to worry about it's just part and parcel because in the moment nothing hurts so nothing matters so we're going to do what we're doing because we've got to achieve a goal yeah do you know what I mean how true is that a lot of people have been messaging talking about the business to fill them like Tamar Hussein's character is kind of based on you that party life style doing what he's done over there generally it's just one of them things he's just I can't say it was it was based on me but it's based on a mindset of person do you understand so the types of people that were doing that sort of stuff were the person that I was and that's how simple it is now Tamar and everyone they've got their history, they've got their closets I mean they've got their skeletons they've all played their part somewhere along the line within the platform I mean they've all made choices a lot sooner than me to make a change so it's just everybody's associating my mindset to what they're seeing because this is the mindset that they make the movies about this is the guy that it's not based personally on me but it's my type of person I mean there's only a certain type of us there's only a certain amount of us of this type in that world and I'd say only two percent of the criminal fraternity is made up of people like me so anyone that's similar to me they make a book about I mean that's that's similar to me it's similarities you know what I'm saying with me because I was just what's it called when you're self I was I just knew what I wanted to be as a person so I was just obsessed with being the naughtiest person I could be was there a time when you thought you were in my beer and you're making some money you thought I've made it and now looking back you're thinking I hadn't even fucking started yeah I've felt that all the way through my life that I've made it do you know what I mean when you're nicking the cut of 100 grand off a van when you nicked 100 grand 50 grand 70 grand when you're getting 250 bits you don't feel like you're failing do you know what I mean you don't feel like oh my life's getting hardy I'm never going to crack it I've never ever believed that I'm ever going to be skin because when I think about being skin I think well I'll be skin because I'm just going to take that or I'll rob that or I'll take this or I'll do that there's always an option when you're criminal because it don't matter because there's always a target whether it be a criminal target a legitimate target or a business target there's going to be a target out there and you get to say the criminal fraternity is if you give me the ump then you're a fucking target when I've got no money because you give me the ump do you know what I mean I want to teach you a lesson for giving me the ump so you get to say I want I'm fucking taking it or I'm going to set someone on you to take it but I wasn't that guy I was the guy that was I got my own shit do you know what I mean I've never really robbed but I've never actually robbed anybody of anything at all growing up as a kid but I pulled these pants down for a bit of graft back in the day but apart from that I've never really robbed anyone a few drug dealers also refused to pay and knock them out or do bits and pieces like that but I've never actually went out of my way to rob people to benefit materialistically or money-wise it was always taking drugs or people to aim why am I paying a junkie you're a junkie but boom you're a tailor see you later fucking dickhead so that was my mindset the association to me is different to some types of criminals because I was every type of criminal I wasn't any type of criminal so I was going to fight, stab, shoot, rob, steal but no noncing, kidnapping or women so anything but I was in it so and I was good at what I've done so going forward brother part two has done and dusted flash that again what's your plans then tell me how you're feeling today and going forward for the future do you see big happy positive plans to be quite honest with you James I think I'm going to have some form of TV show in the next five years I think we're going to have all sorts of programs developed all sorts of learning programs all sorts of teaching programs to do with music football, media, boxing you know like these kids need to understand they've got skills, they've got qualities they've got opportunities you know and it's about getting as many people as I can plugged in to my network so they can succeed and that's all it is so I'm looking for as many people as I can it was starting mentoring so I'm going to be training young men to be younger versions of me mentally so they can go on a mentor young kids not to do the madness that we've done and then we got training for that we got training for roofing bricklaying, household sort of you know like all the join your day working stuff calm tree, bricklaying all that we've got courses getting set up as we speak now so we're going to be training people for employment but we're going to be employing them because I've got a roofing company I've got a scaffolding company and we've got a general builders so the three types of builders we need we're going to give training and jobs to and other kids that want to set up their own companies we're going to engage with them to set up their own companies whatever they need to do you know it's just that's all we can do though I wish people had done with me when I was a kid do you know what I mean because like I'm trying to show kids now if you focus on sort of legal products you're going to grow you're going to be successful all I do now is I involve myself with anything legitimate that makes money and all my products now are legitimate I've got no illegal products to deal with and you've got a lot more people to communicate with with these legal products and you've got a lot more opportunities to sell these products so just find the right product for you find the right product for your environment find the right product for your social landscape because everybody needs something everybody needs milk everybody needs bar everybody needs cream everybody needs hair gel everybody needs toothpaste everybody needs soap everybody needs deodorant do you understand everybody needs perfume everybody needs clothes everybody needs food like what the fuck do you shave all that down say why brand why ease and crack what the fuck you're giving yourself the minimum amount of products to become successful in the most volatile environment of risk and deprivation and yet you choose to do that rather than going to a legitimate world which is bright, airy, spacious sort of free do you know what I mean more variety more opportunities more growth no headache no prison do you know what I mean the only reason you go to prison if you do something stupid but I think if people think they do a bit of graft it automatically makes them a bad man it automatically makes them a gangster or a fighter when you know yourself the majority of people who do graft are fucking idiots do you know what I mean they ain't got a fucking set of balls between them obviously there's a few big players but my personal opinion on the criminal fraternity is this since the late 80s all they've been producing is drug dealers right because in late 80s all the pickpocketers disappeared in the early 90s pickpocketers basically gone mid 90s all the burglars are going now do you know what I mean all the oysters are going all the shoplifters are all junkies now do you know what I mean shoplifters back in the day the oysters were proper getters all the suits, all the cashmere all the bits and pieces all junkies is nicking all that stuff do you know what I mean do you know what I mean the criminal fraternity had trades you had a trade you was either oyster you was a slider, you was a burglar you was a fraudster, you was a robber you was a brass, you was a clipper you was loads of different things you could choose whatever you wanted to do professing and become the best in that game now it's either a drug dealer or junkie that's it there ain't no real in between now you got the cyber fraudsters and the super fraudsters but the book and card everyday shit going on the kids are just using these cyber things and doing all these online banking stuff online fraud shit there's no real interactive criminal activities no more things need to change otherwise they're going to be double effort last question brother last wee bit of inspiration for anybody that's watching maybe going through the transition maybe in the game looking for a bit of inspiration and out the jail somebody that's gone knows it's not quite right but they don't quite understand if they're making the right choice or not what advice would you give for anybody that's in the struggle just now do you know what I've got to ask this question people send me up to I've had a few messages that people need a bit of advice and the only thing that I can actually advise anyone to do is go to the gym and I mean it James it's not even a joke when I've been at my lowest my most vulnerable my most depressed my saddest all the deepest darkest moments of my life the only thing that's raised me up out of all of it is the gym it's the only thing that gets me out of anything is the gym because when I get in that gym maybe it might just be me I don't know but I'll give you a bit of information now that I believe that everybody misses and it's just fundamental in our existence as a species we're designed to hunt we're designed to chase, carry, kill and fetch that's what we're designed to do so years ago, millions years ago we were meant to go hunting for hours and days so you've got a family of five up to the age of 24 so you've got 24 year old kid 20 year old kid 18 year old kid, 16 year old kid 14 year old kid, then you've got a wife your oldest kid's got a couple of kids your middle kid's got a couple of kids you've got a couple of kids you've got grandkids about now you've got to go hunting you've got to feed everyone so what are you catching, what are you killing how fit do you need to be how strong do you need to be and this is the thing that fundamentally humans are forgetting no one's fucking hunting no more so all these hormones that you're getting all these emotions they're building up all these the breakdown, people now all the fits everyone's getting this epilepsy he's gone through the roof over the last five years but I believe it's all the e-products in the food, the body's getting the wrong hormones the body's reacting negatively and it's shaking people down because the nutrients in our food is gone plus we're not exercising to facilitate the nutrients, we're just eating when we're hungry and what we're eating 98% of it is poison for a human system so get on the plant based diet like they always was back in the day do you know what I mean stop eating acid, sugar, dairy, red meat and you'll be okay so get in a gym, acid, sugar, dairy, red meat you need to stop eating things in your life will change so I'll give you another bit of information I've got to give you this now before we go on so when you're hungry when you're hungry, and this is to everybody when you're hungry what's the first thing you think about food, but what food junk food food you like everybody thinks about food they like no one thinks about what food or nutrients they need they think, I think like I'm gonna eat a bit of acid, a bit of sugar a bit of dairy and then the brain says where's my nutrients so you eat a bit more food the brain says where's my nutrients I've been chewing a little while now I tell you what, let's set up some acid because there's a blockage there's your heartburn so when you start getting heartburn that means you're eating all the wrong food because your body isn't getting no nutrients you need to eat the nutrients your body needs so you can grow and develop perfectly we're not eating the right food to grow perfectly we're eating all the negative food and expecting our bodies to grow perfectly and when they don't we go to the doctor and the doctor says oh no, you're just depressed, take these pills oh no, your anxiety take these pills no, it's not anxiety, it's your body saying where's my fucking nutrients where's my nutrients where is it and you're like I'll have a biscuit oh, I'll have a cup of coffee where's my nutrients oh fuck, I feel shit I feel shit and that's all it is and people don't get it because they don't get what their hormones are do you know what I mean it's like your feelings are only a suggestion they're only a suggestion so you get a feeling like for argument's sake and I want you to touch, put your finger the minute you get hungry your stomach see, yeah where's your stomach your stomach's here what do you mean? that's where your stomach is your stomach starts here your sycophagus starts here that's why when you get that food you taste it your stomach starts here it starts here and it starts expanding here and then what it does when it gets heavy it sits on your large intestines and that's what pushes out your large intestines push out but that's not your stomach your stomach's up here people need to understand their bodies and what their bodies need so their bodies will respond positively now because our bodies need dopamine now everybody's replacing dopamine with their phones because every time you get a like you get a dopamine rush but this dopamine stuff is what you get from feeling good right, so how you feel good is by exercising because then your body says oh yeah we've just run, we've just hunted we've just chased and then you come home you have your protein, your body thinks oh yeah everything's working right now everything's sweet, everything's sweet you go to the gym in the morning you have a workout, workout, workout your body says right, you need protein you need fiber, you need sustenance yeah let's go let's go, let's go and then you're like yeah let's go, let's go, let's go you get up in the morning the same thing again but the minute you have shit shit food your body says oh what's that you should have a shit drink you have a shit cup of joint so anything your body says oh can't be bothered doing that now so you actually suppress your own emotions by eating comfort food yeah you are what you eat so now what I eat is bare energy, protein, life and plants man that's it, I was being as healthy the healthiest version of me I can be, that's all I can be love it brother, that's all we can be marv, as a pleasure as always brother, make sure you check out marv's youtube channel because his podcasts are going to be sick instagram will leave all the descriptions and touch if you need to ask him any questions but again brother phenomenal thanks again, God bless check out more of my podcasts on the right and be sure to like, share and comment your thoughts on this week's podcast thank you