Good evening, everyone. Welcome to this session, our fifth session at this conference, which explores the ideas in a recently published book by a Baha'i author. Over the past two weeks, as you may have participated and seen, we've spoken with six authors about their work and learn from their efforts to bring insights from the revelation to bear on contemporary issues and challenges. I'm Julia Berger. I'm joining you from Montclair, New Jersey. I serve with the Association for Baha'i Studies, and I'm happy to welcome you all on this 15th day of our 16-day ABS conference. Today we have the pleasure of speaking with Michael Karlberg about his new book titled Constructing Social Reality and Inquiry into the Normative Foundations of Social Change. And Michael joins us today from Bellingham, Washington. It's my great pleasure to be introducing Michael and his book. But honestly, when Neil Ifar, our conference coordinator, asked me to moderate this, I did want to run in the opposite direction because I knew it was a really weighty book, and I was a little intimidated to read it. But having read it, I'm so glad I did. What really stands out, a lot of things stand out, but what really stands out to me I think is the courage and boldness with which Michael engages some of these very challenging, long-standing questions in philosophy. And I don't mean just impressively challenging questions, even though I think sometimes you may need a dictionary to get through some parts of the book, but challenging in the sense that philosophers and activists over the centuries, like Gandhi, have grappled with these questions because they are the questions that help to define how we build a better society. It's governments, it's educational institutions, how we try to overcome injustice, how we define what a good society is, and then how we try to build a new social order. Many of you I'm sure are familiar with Michael's first book, Beyond the Culture of Contest, in which he argues that a culture of contest and adversarialism is no longer an adequate response to our social and ecological problems and that a non-adversarial mode holds greater promise in this age of interdependence. Michael, as you probably know, has published widely in different fields. Many of us are familiar already with his articles about constructive resilience, discourse, liberal democracy, media and public discourse to name but a few. So this book builds on all of this work and really takes a bold step in addressing these deeply ingrained ways of thinking that holds society back from constructing a more just and peaceful social order. And I think that the social rights and many of us, I think, agree that the social order we inhabit today is an engine of human suffering and ecological ruin. And so here we are as Baha'is trying to do our part to help alongside others to chart a way forward. And Michael's book delves into the conceptual foundations of human behavior and behavior as it emanates from thought. And it generates three tensions or contradictions, predominantly in Western thought that really hinder our progress today. The tension between truth and relativity, asking the question, is it possible for us to ever know the truth about reality? How do we grapple with that question today? The tension between knowledge and power. So can the generation of knowledge be shielded from the corrupting influence of power? How can we build science and religion? How can we realize their full potential to contribute to the betterment of humanity? And as the theme of the conference calls us to go beyond critique to constructive engagement, this is a book that offers a way forward and lays out a program for what Michael refers to towards the end of the book as radical constructive activism. So what I really have appreciated about this book in particular, besides the fact that some of Michael's research interests are similar to my own and asking questions about these intellectual foundations for efforts to pursue a social change are three things. One, I love the fact that he's not afraid to ask the really, really hard questions. And in that sense, I think the book is inspiring for our own efforts to not shy away from the hard questions. And two, I think so is writing is bold, but also exploratory and very appreciative of other insights in the field. It's innovative and invitational and it demonstrates this mode of engagement and discourses that I really think is is helpful for our own efforts in our fields. And finally, it's very practical. And this is a book that speaks to the challenges of our time of climate change of human rights of technological innovations of electoral systems, and among other things then among other things and then brings to bear the experience of the Baha'i community also in building these new patterns of community and social life. So without further ado, a quick word about the author. Michael is a professor of communication studies at Western Washington University and his day job, but he also contributes so much in so many areas of Baha'i life, particularly in fostering the intellectual life, the Baha'i community. He has been a very generous mentor to so many people. I know I've benefited a lot on many occasions as have perhaps many of you listening and so many others. So without further ado, I turn it over to Michael. Thanks, Julia. So a little context and then I'm just going to try to outline the sort of the arc of the argument I make in the book in very brief terms and I'll try to keep it just to maybe 15 minutes or so if I can. So we have time for questions and comments from the audience. And a little context then first so you know some of you listening might have been at the conference, the ABS conference in Ottawa in 2016 when Dr. Farza Marbab addressed the plenary session. And he suggested that Baha'is can contribute to processes of social transformation on three levels. The first levels, as I understand the kind of attitudes and behaviors that reflect the interior condition of our hearts and minds. The second level is the social structures and institutional arrangements that are external features of our social order. And the third level is the deeper underlying system of knowledge or systems of knowledge around the world that the first two levels derived from. So he referred to that deepest level as the intellectual foundations of civilization. And as, as Julia mentioned in my first book beyond the culture of contest I tried to make a small contribution at that third level, really. Make a case for rethinking some really widely held assumptions about human nature about power and about social organization. And I did that by demonstrating how this prevailing culture of contest, which has been built on competitive assumptions about human nature and society and so forth is inherently unjust unsustainable and and reflects also an impoverished understanding reality. I tried to examine how this culture of contest and body is embodied not only in hearts and minds but in the social structures and institutions that we've built. I did that provisional evidence suggesting that humanity can in fact transcend the culture of contest. And then I explored the paradox of trying to do that through processes of political contestation which embody the culture of contest. And in that, in that larger argument that I made a case for more transformative yet non adversarial approaches to social change so in some ways that was a springboard for this second project, my latest book constructing social reality. I really alluded to the book really sort of focuses on these three ingrained habits of mind. I mean the surf that are foundational intellectual sort of problems built into Western civilization that have resulted in widespread cynicism about the possibility of transformative change. This latest book, I want to say it benefited from, you know, a decade of rich conversations with so many people friends collaborators colleagues students. So really it's a product of a conversation. So these three broad habits of thought. Again Julia mentioned to him but the first has to do with the relationship between truth and relativism, more specifically moral truth and relativism. And a second relationship between knowledge and power, and third the relationship between science and religion so let me just sort of outline the argument that I make here. But when I talk about moral truths and relativism, you know philosophers would sometimes refer to what I'm talking about as normative truths. And normative has to do with in this context, the way we ought to live. So truths about the way humans ought to live. So the question of whether such truths even exist. Now, for those of you who are bow high or familiar with the high faith, we know behind often referred to normative truths as spiritual principles. So if you want to sort of translate this language. That's what I'm talking about here and what the highs recall spiritual principles about how we ought to live. For example, the principle of the oneness of humanity. You know, along with the principles of justice and trustworthiness and compassion. These are not just sort of, you know, nice cities that we like to see a little more of in the world these are principles that we believe a new social order need to be constructed around, just in the same way that, you know, we have to build airplanes out of the principles of physics. Many people in the world today reject the existence of moral truths, reject this idea of, you know, normative truths. And I'm sure you're all familiar with these arguments that normative, you know, moral truths are just beliefs or just truth claims that are all relative. They're assumed to be nothing more than the subjective preferences of individuals. In other words, maybe works for you, right. We've all heard these kinds of arguments, or sometimes they're assumed to be cultural construct shared by entire communities different cultures have different so called moral truths, but ultimately there's no foundational basis for any of it. It's all just made up socially constructed in that extreme sense. This is a widespread view today obviously. And it's present from popular culture to, you know, academic discourse and many other contexts. Now, philosophers have debated the existence of normative truths for millennia. Since the earliest recorded philosophies. The argument of my book is that normative truths do indeed have an existence that is independent of our conscious understanding of them. And I offer some initial evidence for that claim. But beyond that, more importantly, what I argue is that humans are endowed with the collective capacity to increase our understanding of normative truths. To provide some language for thinking about this, I refer to this understanding as relative attunement, which is a concept Todd Smith and I articulated in a previous journal article. I offer some evidence for relative attunement with normative truths. And in some of the ways humans actually collectively advanced towards this. Then more importantly, I turn to the ways that we can learn to consciously apply normative truths in our under in our efforts to construct them or just in social order. And again, I'm trying to provide a language that is digestible in certain intellectual academic philosophical contexts. And I refer to this as efforts to increase the embodiment of normative truths in social constructs. Now by social constructs, I'm referring to things like social practices social norms social institutions, all of which are socially constructed. They don't exist independent of human agency we bring them into existence. And all social constructs I demonstrate can be analyzed in terms of the relative embodiment of normative truths or spiritual principles. So let me offer a concrete example that I cite in the book. You know, if let's consider the various systems of rights that have been socially constructed throughout history. Those are systems like slavery, in which some people have all the rights and others have virtually no rights, but the rights are clear it's a system of rights that has that was socially constructed. Most people today, thankfully, recognize that slavery as a socially constructed institution failed to embody normative truths such as justice, equity, and the inherent dignity of every human being. We can also think though of other socially constructed systems of rights that embody those same normative truths to different degrees. So cast systems and feudal systems embody those truths to very limited degrees but perhaps more than the system of racialized slavery set up in the Americas. Democratically constructed bills of rights tend over time to embody these truths to slightly greater degrees however imperfect they are documents like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights attempt to embody these truths to even higher degrees. Again, however imperfect they are. But by extension then we can also imagine the construction of even more mature frameworks of human rights and of human responsibilities that represent an even fuller expression or a fuller fruition of normative truths such as justice, equity and inherent dignity of every human being. So, in my book I spend a chapter examining how these processes are actually being advanced in the world, not just a theoretical exercise. And how these processes can also be understood as processes of knowledge, knowledge generation in other words a dimension of these processes has to be understood at the level of the generation of knowledge. But this is not knowledge like knowledge of the natural world knowledge in the natural sciences. We're talking about knowledge about social patterns that unfold through our own agency. It's a unique form of knowledge that has to be understood on its own terms. It's important to distinguish between knowledge about phenomenon that emerge independent of human agency, like the solar system and everything in it before humans, you know, arrived so to speak, before we evolved on to the scene. So those kinds of phenomena has to be distinguished from knowledge of phenomena that emerged through human agency. And that leads us into the second sort of conceptual relationship by addressing the book this relationship between knowledge and power. Because when we're talking about knowledge about things that are socially constructed through human agency power becomes especially relevant. For example, let's think about this relationship between knowledge and power. Most people today understand that histories are often written by dominant social groups in ways that are favorable to their interests and that can normalize oppressive social arrangements. You know history is written by the victor, so to speak. We often see that and we're most people are aware of that and that's about the relationship between knowledge and power. But we also increasingly understand even applied scientific knowledge is often generated by powerful commercial and military interests in ways that privilege dominant dominant social groups over others. But beyond that, many people recognize that even so called common sense knowledge within a population can be cultivated by powerful groups in ways that become oppressive to much of the population. So consider for instance the materialistic understandings of human nature that have been cultivated by a massive system of commercial propaganda in the world today, which render people vulnerable to commercial manipulation for the profit of others. Right. These are all about the relationship between knowledge and power. In recent years so much attention has been devoted to deconstructing this power knowledge nexus, as Foucault referred to it, if you're familiar with him. So much attention has been devoted to this that in some circles the argument is made that all knowledge is corrupted by power, which is a very cynical place to be if you think about the role of knowledge and the progress of civilization. So I spent a chapter addressing the limitations of that argument by outlining an expanded conception of power, which encompasses both its oppressive as well as emancipatory expressions. I then outlined some of the conditions methods and approaches by which the generation of knowledge can be shielded from oppressive expressions of power and can be more fully aligned with emancipatory expressions. And within that framework, I argue it becomes possible to learn our way forwards systematically and with perseverance toward a more just social order, despite the efforts of those who might want to prevent that. Now, this kind of knowledge generation is increasingly familiar to Baha'is. We're continually increasing our capacity to advance the generation of emancipatory knowledge in systematic ways, your universal and participatory culture of learning about social transformation, even under conditions that are repressive. Right, we're becoming familiar with these conditions methods and approaches. We're learning how to train ever expanding circles of protagonists to actually advance this work precisely this work. And of course we recognize we're not alone in these efforts many like-minded people and organizations are contributing in their own ways to these similar processes. So in this context then I examined the third conceptual relationship I alluded to earlier that the relationship between science and religion. And I argue that science at its best can be understood as a system for increasing our relative attunement with the material truths that underlie our physical reality and learning to apply those truths to the betterment of humanity. I argue that religion at its best can be understood as a system for increasing our relative attunement to normative truths that underlie our social reality and learning to apply those truths to the betterment of humanity. Now, the latter religion involves communities of people working to increase the embodiment of normative truths in social constructs. And the experience of the Baha'i community has one form of evidence to this, among others. In that same chapter I also point out the science has been driven toward maturity through what you could call a normative discourse on science itself. In other words, a discourse on the way science ought to be practiced. This is what philosophers of science, for instance, have spent, you know, a couple of centuries thinking very deeply about. As well as many practicing scientists. What I argue in the book is that religion also now needs to be driven toward maturity through a parallel normative discourse, a discourse on the way religion ought to be practiced. A public discourse in the way that the discourse on the normative discourse on science is a public discourse. Now, I want to distinguish what I'm talking about here from the kind of normative discourse about religion that is sectarian, which has to do with, you know, whose religion is correct and what rituals need to be followed and that's not what I'm talking about here. But I'm talking about requires us to conceptualize religion in its singular form as a global phenomenon the same way we have come to understand science. In that chapter I discuss I suggest some of the normative principles by which we might begin to hold religion to account publicly. But I offer them only as a contribution in a certain invitational way to this discourse, and it is a discourse by the way that has already begun in the modern world, but it needs to significantly advance. Following that discussion, I acknowledge that my line of reasoning runs against the grain of some influential traditions of thought today. And in the next chapter I engage and respond to four of those. First I engage the broad tradition that philosophers call often called physicalism, which is a mouthful and it's roughly synonymous with materialism as the terms often use. In that broad tradition of physicalism, I engage the influential current of thought known as known as pragmatism, which arose in large part to address the moral relativism that arose from physicalism. Now I realize this is a lot to sort of track as I'm going through but basically the materialist sort of, you know, turn in intellectual life gave rise to the moral relativism and pragmatism was a response to that. But of course there are limits to pragmatism. Then within the tradition of pragmatism I engaged a subset of thought which is influential in its own right, which is often referred to as proceduralism. And that's a very influential current of thought that seeks procedural solutions to the problem of relativism of moral relativism. In other words, there are no moral truths but if we just follow the right procedures we can fit we can get along, we can learn how to, you know, live together. And the last current of thought I engage then within proceduralism, there's another current of thought that's increasingly influential called agonism. And agonism basically assumes that perpetual forms of political contestation are the only way, the only procedure by which we can address oppressive relations of power. Now in each case, I try to show the limitations of these traditions of thought, and the possibility of moving behind that beyond them, as a means of moving from a kind of moral cynicism to a hopeful and constructive posture. Now the book concludes then by discussing some of the deeper philosophical implications of the line of reasoning I've laid out. In the last chapter I discuss, for instance, some of you are familiar with Plato's theory of forms which most theories of moral truth or normative truth reference, but play those theory forms and widely rejected today. I engage it by looking at the work of a philosopher named Thomas Thomas soon, who's really thoughtful insightful reinterpreted reinterpretation of Plato is actually very coherent with a high understanding of spiritual principles, or normative truths. I'm going to discuss in that last chapter the need to rethink materialist assumptions about human consciousness, because it's very relevant to thinking about our capacity to generate knowledge about moral truths. And I do that by engaging the work of another very thoughtful philosopher, some of you are familiar with Thomas Nagel. Just the, what I consider largely unrealized contributions or potential contributions of the social sciences, and the role that need to play, actively systematically helping humanity increase the embodiment of normative truths in social constructs, and some of the methodological implications of that. In other words, what are the methods, what are the implications of the line of reasoning in this book for the methods of the social sciences. And finally, I discuss the need for constructive agency or what I often refer to as radical constructive agency as an approach to social change that's coherent with the line of reasoning laid out in the book. So, that's the book in a nutshell. And a quick last comment then this framework of concepts that I've tried to weave together in the book should be broadly familiar to any of the highs who have been engaged in the experiential learning within the evolving conceptual framework, articulated by the Universal House of Justice over the last couple of decades. But what the book tries to do is, is contribute language and a line of reasoning that makes elements of this framework, and of what we're doing digestible to academic audiences and other sort of critical intellectuals. And my hope is that this language and this line of reasoning can serve as a resource that others can draw on, as we collectively try to lay the intellectual foundations for a more just civilization. Amid the, frankly, the chaos and ruin of a collapsing social order that every day, I think becomes more alarming to, to, you know, people everywhere. So that's the project in a nutshell. I'm happy to take whatever comments or engage in some sort of conversation with with those of you who are listening. Thank you so much, Michael for taking us through this really rich and diverse set of ideas and through this framework and helping us to piece it together in this in this really elegant way that you have. I want to welcome those who are maybe have joined us part way. So we've been speaking with Michael Karlberg about his new book constructing social reality and inquiry into the normative foundations of social change. So now we're going to move into the questions. I got a couple of questions. So I'll read them out. First question is, although normative truth is absolute in spiritual realms. Can it be considered relative in the human realm. Yeah, absolutely. So I dressed that. And this is in, in to use some more precise philosophical language and I'm sorry if it just is bothersome for some of you. The way that I address this is that normative truths, I argue have an ontological foundation in other words they exist in reality independent of our understanding of them, or the degree of our understanding. But there, but we have to think about human knowledge of normative truths as relative. So it's an ontological foundationalism and epistemological relativism, if that makes sense. And I think it's a very important distinction that we need to be able to draw when we're in conversation with each other because it's about, it's about our own humility and the limits of human consciousness. And the limits of how far humanity's understanding has collectively advanced at any given moment, or within any within any given, you know, culture and so forth. Without sacrificing the understanding that they're in fact are those truths so it's the same with science right. Maybe I think, by and large, most people today, except the fact that there are certain laws of physics for instance material truths about reality that exists independent of our understanding. And you know the law of gravity existed, frankly before humans were on this planet to even observe it let alone advanced, you know our understanding of it in various ways. So the law of gravity has an ontological foundation, but our understanding of it at any given moment is epistemologically relative, if that makes sense. That's why I try to address that. And to suggest that that's that's part of an argument that I put together, but it's amazing how, how frequently people conflate those two ideas. Thank you Michael, and now we have another question this person is asking consciousness is considered as a profound capacity of the human soul and not emanating from matter and the physical world. Humans exhibit their power of discovery innovation and creativity not only through education hard work expertise and experimentation but also through receiving inspiration guidance from supernatural metaphysical phenomena. If so, how could we demonstrate that the inspiration discovery and creativity could come to the human mind and soul through metaphysical phenomena. You know, I don't try to take on the ultimate question of, for instance, human, our, our, our mystical relationship to divinity, right to the revealed world, word, the revealed word and so forth. I allude to some of those things briefly to invite people from certain backgrounds to sort of recognize themselves and what I'm saying but I don't set out to prove that what I do. What I do, however, is talk about the role of intuition of normative intuition and normative discernment or what in the Bahá'í world we're often referred to as spiritual perception, right. If you've, you know, animated junior youth and gone through book five training you're familiar with this concept of spiritual discernment. And think about it also in terms of a form that it's a form of empowerment that we have intuitive faculties that enable us to assess the relative embodiment of normative truths or a moral or spiritual principles in the social arrangements around us. But those faculties, just like the faculty of, you know, like logical thought, need to be trained and developed. They don't just bring forth, you know, full blown from every, you know, human being. Everyone has the capacity for it but they need to be trained and developed. So this, and this is one of the things that distinguishes knowledge about material phenomenon from knowledge about socially constructed phenomenon or not phenomenon that arises from human agency. The latter, socially constructed phenomenon always inherently have a normative dimension. That normative dimension is not susceptible to, to like measurement by instrumentation, a kind of empirical measurement. But it is susceptible to assessment by the human soul. And that process has a mystical or intuitive dimension. But that's not an irrational process and it's a faculty of the of human consciousness that can be trained and developed over time. And most importantly, it, that faculty finds its highest expression not an individual assessments but in collective assessments through the power of consultation. I'll just add one more thing to that. Most importantly in that collective assessment if we're talking about how to construct a more just social order, the discernment of people who have experienced injustice of various kinds becomes especially relevant. This is one of the reasons I assume the House of Justice tells us that the participation in the generation of knowledge is a responsibility of a right and a responsibility of every human being and justice demands universal participation. It's also one of the reasons I think if you know throughout this conference some references have been made to this very fine article that Derek Smith wrote on the people of the eye, and the sort of unique role in the high writings ascribed to the perception of black people in the modern world, in part because of the oppression they've experienced throughout modernity. So, all of this is to say that these powers of spiritual discernment or normative discernment can be cultivated and the experiences of some people are especially relevant in certain conversations about as we try to assess the relative embodiment of moral truths and normative truths in existing social relations or arrangements. So we've got quite a few questions coming in. This next one is from a graduate history student. They're asking, do you have any thoughts about the methodological implications of your framework for the discipline of history? I'm not a historian, so I probably would go out on limb and get in trouble if I try to offer too much there. I guess the one thing I would say is there are certain concepts that once we become familiar with them, you know, concepts that have normative sort of dimensions and implications, that once we begin familiarize ourselves with them, they become lenses with which we need to take a second look at history and begin to notice things that were previously unnoticed or held stories that have been largely untold. So an example of that that I've talked about elsewhere is, you know, this idea of constructive resilience or radical constructive agency combined with resilience in the face of repression. This is a phenomenon. The House of Justice began writing about this in 2009 describing the, you know, the the Baha'is of Iran with these terms and more recently writing about African Americans in these terms. But this is an approach to social change, constructive resilience to use that phrase, that it's not unique to Baha'is. Throughout history, people have demonstrated constructive agency, working for social transformation and constructive rather than contentious ways with resilience in the face of repression. And yet those stories have rarely been told, at least through those lens. So as a historian, I hope, or as as those of you who are historians, I hope that we can begin to look at history through the lens of some of these concepts that are becoming available to us, which are like normatively rich concepts, they have implications for how we ought to be doing things in the future. And as we realize that the past histories we're building on, that expands our imagination for what's possible in the future. So I think that's a methodological implication on a certain level. We need to think about the lenses through which we interpret history and the norm of implications of those. And our next question is epistemological relativism implies a posture of humility towards what we think we know. However, when a community takes collective action, it usually must rally around a single understanding of reality for a particular period of time, in order to work together make progress. So does an individual's consciousness of epistemological relativism make collective action more difficult? If so, what posture can a community take to overcome this challenge? Yeah, it's a good question. I think, you know, in some ways, the question, the answer to the question can be found in this principle of consultation that we act in a unified way in order to figure out the limits of our understanding, right? We consult, we come up with the best understanding at any given moment for the course of action ahead of us. We make a decision, we implement it in a unified way so that we can reveal its limitations and adjust accordingly or expand our understanding accordingly. And unfortunately, it's almost impossible to do that unless one adopts a unified approach to the action, to sort of action, which of course is one of the reasons that contentious action limits us. It's very difficult to advance systematic learning over time within contentious sorts of relationships. But that doesn't mean there's no role for contentious action in the sort of wider social processes playing out in the world and that they don't play a role, nor that we need to judge those or condemn those or criticize those. In fact, I admire a lot of what I see, you know, happening in the world around me that might be described in those terms. But we can also recognize there are some limits and that we're trying to learn to operate by deeper logic. So I think this question is, you know, my understanding is, we have to be very humble about the level of our knowledge at any given moment but not paralyzed by that humility. We collectively make the best decision we can, we implement it in a united way, anticipating to learn from our mistakes and limitations and refine our understanding and actions over time. So we have two questions that are touching on this question of science and religion and I think I'll just pose them both and then please just feel free to reply in whichever order you wish. The question is, this person is interested in learning how we speak about religion, quote, in its singular form, unquote, and says I imagine that this looks different at various scales of society, local, national, international. And this asks have you found any concrete examples of this approach to talking about religion. The question about science, this person asks about your conceptualization about asking about your conceptualization of religion and its singularity and wonders if we shouldn't revisit science and its singularity. And says today's science is so fragmented that facts can be confirmed by one discipline and denied by another. So that could be ontological relativism. So how can we then engage with scientific discourses to encourage the application of its singularity. This is a hard thing to encapsulate in a couple comments I do try to address these, these concerns in my book. So let me just offer a few broad initial comments. Let me start with this question of whether science should or can be understood in terms of a singular system a sort of global unified system. On one hand, it's clear that what some of us think of as like modern Western science has its limitations, and that there are internal debates within it still about you know methodological sorts of debates about how to generate knowledge. And it's also clear if you dig deeper that what we think of as so called modern Western science actually has roots in Islam and you know, Hinduism and a lot of other traditions and it's not in fact sort of uniquely Western construct at all. Even though obviously certain moment in Europe contributed certain, you know, forward movement to that. And we can also acknowledge that there are many, you know what many people refer to as systems of knowledge or, or different epistemologies around the world different ways of knowing rooted in different cultural experiences. All of that can be true without denying the fact that there's an underlying reality that is one. And Abdul Bahad tells us as as much again and again reality is one. So, I think for my eyes at least we need to start from that premise that reality exists. It's one it's unified and of course then humans over time and different cultures bring all sorts of lenses to understanding that are limited in various ways. When the House of Justice talks about science or when Abdul Bahad talk about science talks about science. They're talking about it in a singular form as something that somehow encompasses. To my understanding, all of the systematic ways humans generate knowledge about the material world. Right. So it's not any one singular methodology, or it's not any one cultural approach. But there is some something we can refer to collectively as the systematic generation of knowledge about the natural world. And that's what we can call science and then we can recognize it has all sorts of branches and ongoing methodological states and there's a lot of contradictions at the moment clearly because on some level, it's all somewhat immature state. We can also recognize some of those contradictions might actually just be complementary ways of understanding the same reality because reality is more complex than any of our models. You know, the particle wave duality and physics is a good example of that. Seemingly it's describing the same reality even though very different experiments lead to very different results and descriptions. But we don't generally use like the particle wave distinction to argue that there isn't one underlying reality. It's not the case in the normative sphere though, where we often argue there just is no underlying reality. So I think we have to think carefully about what we mean by science in its singular form and definitely not confuse it for a sort of specific cultural historical sort of notion of what science is. And recognize we're still learning about the systematic generation of knowledge about the natural world, which we can call science. The question about religion, how do we describe that? Are there examples of that? How do we learn to talk about with others? You know, I think in a certain way, what the House of Justice has been guiding us to over the last 10, 15, 20 years is a new language and a new vocabulary and new set of concepts for talking about religion. So first actually for understanding our own, like what we're participating in as a religious community. I think the Bahá'í world has a fundamentally different understanding of what it means to participate in religion today than it did 20, 30 years ago. So our own understanding is advancing. We're learning in an experiential way, as well as a conceptual way with this guidance we get. So I think first we need to be able to articulate to others how we understand our own efforts and what, you know, what we participate in and use that as an opportunity to show that it's possible for religion to look like this. And then I think we can also take a next step, which is to say we can find traces of this in other, you know, moments in history and in other so-called religious traditions that, you know, Islam certainly participated in the generation of knowledge, not just about the natural world, although science was central to Islam, especially in a sort of golden, you know, age, but the Islamic world was generating knowledge also about how to increase the relative embodiment of normative truths in social reality. We just don't usually think of it in those terms. So I think we can also begin to sort of reinterpret or enrich our understanding of some of the other religious traditions and what they've done. Now, the reality is, I don't know that any of them have become as sophisticated in their methods and approaches as what the Baha'i world at the moment is pioneering. I mean, there's a way in which I think we're at the frontiers of this enterprise and eager to invite anyone to join us, whether or not they identify as Baha'is. Somehow we need to begin to have these conversations, invite people to think about religion in new ways. We don't need to reduce, we also don't need to reduce religion just to this one conception. Religion is a richer phenomenon than just, you know, a system of knowledge and practice about X. It's an important dimension of religion that has been underappreciated, under theorized, that we need to bring into focus. And the next question a person is asking, what does assessment look like in normative social change? What implications does that have for fields like international development? Well, in the field of international development, I think we see sort of struggling efforts to do exactly this. So it's not my field, and I'm, you know, I'm not entirely conversant with the language, but when I think about like this sort of development goals articulated by the United Nations and this sort of broad global development community, in every, you know, generation, many of those goals are normative goals, like increase the, you know, opportunities for women around the world and education for women and so forth. That's a normative goal that has to do with the principles of justice and equity, right? There are many development goals, like in global development discourse, there are many normative principles at play by which the development endeavor tries to periodically assess itself. Now, it's halting, it's haphazard, it's sabotaged with, you know, political problems and, you know, like it's very imperfect process, but we do see in that domain of normative discourse efforts to apply normative principles actually to assess the effectiveness, or even the conception of development projects and endeavors. I think an even better example of this, but that has been not thought about in these terms are social movements. I mean, if you think about what do social movements do. And I'm talking about movements for, you know, progressive social change of various kinds, the Southern civil rights movement in the United States, or all sorts of movements around the world, you know, independence, post-colonial independence movements, movements for the quality of women, all these things. Social movements, in a sense, are collective efforts to increase the embodiment of normative principles in social constructs in social arrangements. Like that's almost by definition what a social movement is once you begin to think about it in those terms. Of course, the challenge with social movements then is one needs to ask, with any given movement, are the methods and approaches the most effective? Can we learn over time about how to do this better? But in fact, social movements can be understood exactly in terms of like assessing existing social arrangements in light of normative principles and struggling to improve the degree to which they embody those principles. So I think there are a lot of examples of this we see in the world around us where actually this is already happening. It's not like Mahay's are the only people trying to do this work, obviously. But we don't have, I think, a language developed that enables us to sort of see the coherence of these efforts to reflect on the effectiveness, the methods, the approaches. And I think that's what we can help bring to the conversation. So I think we've got time for a couple more questions. Maybe before we get to the next question, I just want to say that if you're interested in buying the book, it's available on the ABS website online. It's also available on Amazon. It can now be preordered and Neelafar is telling me that it ships in two to three weeks. And there's going to be a link in the abstract of the presentation in your online schedule. So that's, please do go there for more information. So our next question is, would it be accurate to say that the foundation of normative truths is not any external empirical fact, but our own inherent human needs and capacities. For instance, we all need and are capable of love and justice and therefore we require values and social systems that nurture and protect the development and expression of those capacities. So I think there's a kind of, I don't think we can separate these these two things. In other words, if humans have certain inherent needs and capacities, the question is where do they come from. And, you know, if human consciousness is somehow an expression of an underlying reality. Then those human needs and capacities come from that underlying reality so somehow I think we have to not separate human needs and capacities or human consciousness from the sort of underlying wider deeper encompassing reality. We're one with that reality. And that reality just expresses itself in a particular way through us, so to speak, I mean the will of God ultimately brings reality into existence and that reality sort of comes to fruition through human consciousness in a certain way. This is what the Baha'i writings, you know, tell us at least how we understand this as Baha'is. So I think we can't separate, you know, does the need for love the need for justice is that just a human thing or is that somehow foundational to reality. Well, humans are foundational reality, where one were of the same substance as reality. But let me let me also maybe give another nuance to this if I can, which has to do with the question of how do we know these things are foundational, whether like they're just foundationally woven into human experience or somehow into external reality, which I think we have to be careful not to. Like I think that's a kind of a false dichotomy on a certain level. But how do we know they're foundational at all. And what I argued in the book and this I'm not the first one to make this argument either, but is that we know them because of their effects, which is actually the only way we can know any truths, even like the, you know, physics, the laws of physics, so to speak. So, gravity is a simple example. No one in the world today know the most advanced physicists in the world today don't have a clue what gravity is. Nobody can explain the essence of gravity. What we can do is predict its effects reliably, and we can model them, we can predict them so accurately. We've come up with, you know, very accurate numbers that describe the coefficient of gravity and how, how strong the attraction is between two masses all these things, we can model and predict the effects of gravity, but we know nothing of its essence. I would say the same thing is true of justice. We know nothing of its essence. But we what we know is, when we violate the principle of justice, the effects are predictable. They don't suffer. They become resentful. They begin to work for change. They struggle, they persevere, right. The principle of justice we know from its effects. We also know what happens when people experience justice to various degrees, they start to flourish. So, in a sense, justice and gravity are no different. They're mysteries that will forever, their essence will forever be beyond human comprehension, but their effects are knowable. And it's, it's knowing those effects and the predictability of their effects that gives us some confidence that they're, they're real. That they're independent of our imaginations. They're somehow embedded in the fabric of reality as our, we ourselves, right. So, in that sense, we can have confidence that these things are real and we can begin to learn how to try to apply these, these truths, these principles, these normative truths to the betterment of a human condition. Thank you so much for that. And I, I know we're sort of at the top of the hour, but one last question this person is asking, are there topics that didn't make it into this book that you're excited to explore further? I couldn't not ask that question because maybe many of us, many of us are wondering what that is. So, I mean, there's a topic that is sort of brought up just at the end of the book very, very briefly and some of my previous work, and it's this question of ends and means, the, the, the means and ends of social change and the relationship between them. And it's something I've already given thought to and touched on in some of my writings.  In the kind of Western tradition, it traces in the modern Western world that traces back in some ways to Machiavelli. Who basically is one of the founding figures of modern political philosophy and who basically argued that, at least in certain contexts, the ends justify the means. There's a really held view that gets embedded in all sorts of so called political realism today. So, on the other hand, there are other arguments about the relationship between ends and means that trace through a wide range of figures, you know, from Marx and Trotsky to do we and Gandhi, all this Huxley wrote a book on ends and means and the relationship have to do with the relationship between the ends of social change what, you know, the world we want to build, and the means by which we try to do that work so there is a discourse on ends and means that goes back 500 years in a Western tradition alone. That, to my knowledge, but highs have never engaged. And I think that's remarkable because we have some things to bring to that conversation, not only abstract theoretical, you know, sorts of arguments we can make, but we have also experienced we've been generating that shed some light on this question. So that's a topic I touch on at the very end of the book, but that hopefully is will be my next, I guess, larger project that I'm trying to dive much deeper in familiarize myself much more intimately with this, this ongoing and deep and rich discourse on ends and think about how do we begin to contribute to that conversation globally, because in the 21st century, it's becoming an acutely sort of important conversation. And my students on my campus, they're very concerned with that question. They know this. We have a generation of young people in the world today who fundamentally understands civilization is collapsing around them like the system is broken. And they, if they're not just sort of lost in cynicism and pessimism, pessimism, sadly, if they're not lost in that, they're asking how, like, what are the means, what are the methods, what are the approaches to changing the system. So anyways, I think it's a, I think it's going to be one of the primary questions of the 21st century that we need to be at the table talking about. Thank you, Michael for giving us a glimpse and we, we certainly wish you the best and then look forward to reading the fruits of this continued labor. And I want to thank Michael for his sharing the book with us and allowing us to kind of understand it on this kind of much more intimate level and allowing us to explore its ideas. I encourage you to, to check it out online. And thank you also for those of you who participated for your excellent questions which always make this such a such an engaging experience for all of us for all of us here and we hope to see you at the last day of the conference tomorrow so thank you everyone. Take care. Thanks to you. Thanks everyone.


A film in three minutes? No. Okay people, listen up. We've got 15 minutes of television screen time for the next 27 days to get this new brief over the line. The client? The people of Chile. The campaign? To convince an entire nation to say no to eight more years of rule under Augusto Pinochet. Easy, right? We're going to need a cool logo, a catchy jingle, mimes, can't forget the mimes. Oh, and an inspiring message of hope to pull this off. Just like what happens in Pablo Lorraine's 2012 historical drama? No. Set on the eve of Chile's 1988 plebiscite to decide whether the strongman Pinochet government was to be extended by a further eight years of power, the story follows René Saavedro, played by Gael Garcia Bernal, an advertising executive who is approached by the leaders of the suppressed political opposition to spearhead the no campaign. Faced with scant resources and authoritarian bullying tactics from the government, René is at first hesitant to join. However, thanks to his astute marketing instincts which bring him into conflict with some of the political victims of Pinochet's regime, the no team is able to spread a message of joy and optimism about the country's future, threatening to destabilise the regime itself and running the risk of the vote being discarded entirely. No is the third film in Lorraine's trilogy focusing on Chile's Pinochet era, with the first two entries, Tony Manero and Post Mortem, delving into the birth of the dictatorship and its most violent moment, whereas no dramatises the period of the dictatorship's end. The character of René is a composite of two real-life marketing executives, José Manuel Salcedo and Orgenio Garcia, who were instrumental in the campaign's success and have cameos in the film, as do other actors, presenters and activists from the period, who are cleverly spliced into existing archive newsreels and anti-Pinochet material, giving the film a heightened sense of realism. This authenticity is also aided massively by the decision to construct the entire film's cinematography on rebuilt 1983 umatic video cameras, perfectly blurring the line between what is real and what belongs to the world of the story by seamlessly blending the film footage with already existing news broadcasts of the competing campaigns, giving the film's presentation of 1988's Chile a documentary style finish that heightens the believability of the drama. While no-nose focus on a small ragtag band of marketing execs fails to shine a light on the tireless work of thousands of grassroots campaign activists had in delivering the no-vote, you'll be hard-pressed not to feel inspired by the film's life-affirming dramatisation of recent historical events. A story with hope at its centre that may not be the entire history of how a nation dared to dream differently and move on from dictatorship, but reminds us how marketing, despite its superficial shortcomings, can still be used to achieve good in the world when you have a happy message and the bravery to stand up to authoritarian bullies and say no.


kind of a side note. It's so important that we're not talking about our kids in front of them. This isn't like sensory based, but only conversation topic or anyone, anyone in front of them. Yes, we don't talk about people like they are not in the room.  I'm like, you know, yes, it's just doesn't feel right. You know, it's that's, that's one of those parenting things that you that parents need to learn immediately. Not years later, they don't they don't clock that the kids are actually listening and what they're saying. Doctors like the doctors should know at this point, the therapist, that if we're rehashing all of the crises since the last appointment, and the child is in there listening to all of their everything, it is it's not kind. It's this is not compassionate. This is not affirming. So that's just kind of a lesson learned that parents, like we should be telling parents this when the diagnosis comes not. You know, it even happens in, you know, I was watching that show love on the spectrum. And I even saw that that happened between like the camera crew, the interviewers and the parents of this, this one guy. I can't remember what his name is. It's kind of the big star of the show.  I was just like, Oh my God, they literally just don't think that they have have the ability to process what they're saying. They're like, if they're not looking directly at them and they're doing their own thing that they they don't have ears and can't like, you know, so it's yeah, and it comes down to the presumed competence. Also, we need to be honoring our kids and honoring autistic people as whole people. It's so important.


Hi everyone, if you're watching this video then you've heard the announcement from Nintendo yesterday, Monday June 26th, that there will in fact be a SNES Classic Edition featuring 21 games. Not only that, but even the PAL region folks get their own design as well. That's pretty cool. The SNES Classic is slated to be released on September 29th of this year, and hey look, there's even a statement saying they're gonna produce more than the NES Classic, while I would freaking hope so after that fiasco. Anyway, I thought it'd be cool to take a quick look at each game they picked to be a part of this collection. The big news here is the release of Star Fox 2, a completed game that was never released because Nintendo thought it would take too much attention away from the upcoming N64. There's some more details of the backstory of this game and why it was never released in the description below. As you can see here, Star Fox 2 is pretty different from its predecessor. This is not exactly the same linear pick up and play style structure as the original Star Fox. This is closer to Star Fox Command for DS, which this game obviously inspired. There's an open-ended map system where you move ships around to different spots to intercept missiles, and you come up with a strategy to invade enemy territory, and it's all done in real time too. The Star Fox shoot-em-up action you're familiar with is still here, but it's in smaller doses, and there's a bigger emphasis on strategy and movement. Star Fox 2 was definitely an ambitious game for its time. If you want more info on it, I did a full video on that game alone that you can check out in the description below. Well, if Star Fox 2 is on here, then of course the original Star Fox has got to be on here as well. This is an interesting one to me because it really hasn't aged all that well. I still love this game, I love the soundtrack, the easy accessibility of the gameplay, but the framerate causes some serious problems. Plus, the overall visual design of Star Fox is just so, so 90s, so I'm really interested to see the reaction to this game from people that haven't seen it since it came out in 1993. Next, there's what I call the goes without saying category, meaning it goes without saying that Super Mario World, Super Mario Kart, Super Metroid, Super Punch-Out, Legend of Zelda, Link to the Past, and Kirby Super Star were all included. These are extremely popular titles, most of them developed by Nintendo, and there was no way they were going to make an SNES Classic Edition without these games on it. Super Mario World is a natural follow-up to Mario 3 for NES and is an incredible open-ended and creative platformer that holds up perfectly today. Super Mario Kart is one of the best versus multiplayer games ever made and has some serious potential to end friendships with just the flick of a red shell. Super Metroid is considered by some to be the best video game ever made because of its combination of an atmosphere and open-ended gameplay that allows the player the freedom to approach its daunting world in several different ways. Super Punch-Out is like Mike Tyson's Punch-Out, but on steroids, especially in Super Macho Man's case. Link to the Past is thought of as the best Zelda game ever made to this day by many, with tons of weapons and tools to help you solve challenging puzzles. And Kirby Super Star is a fantastic two-player co-op game, maybe the best co-op game in this entire collection here. These are all high quality titles and some of the best games on a console that has one of, if not the best game, library of any gaming system ever. So yeah, I don't really need to say much else here. Interestingly, they included F-Zero here as well, and while this is a great game and one of the best launch titles ever made, it's kind of odd that it was included because, well, it's a single-player racing game. I get why it's here. It was really popular back in the day and people still love it. But I mean, single-player racing games have a much shorter shelf life than a game that can include a second player. People will be happy to see the original Donkey Kong Country on here. This is another one that should probably go in the goes without saying category. It's a great game, but selfishly, I can't help but be a little bummed out that Donkey Kong Country 2 Diddy's Conquest isn't on here. In my opinion, it's a much better game with much more fun and intuitive level design.  It's also really interesting that they're putting Super Mario World 2 Yoshi's Island on here because, like Star Fox 2, it used the Super FX2 chip. If I remember correctly, that chip caused some problems with those two games being made available on the virtual console. So I'm wondering if they simply bought the rights to emulate the games that use this chip or what. Either way, Yoshi's Island features some of the best visuals the Super Nintendo had to offer, like this sequence here, for example. Touch Fuzzy, Get Dizzy. There is a group of five fantastic games from Capcom and Konami on here as well. Street Fighter 2 Turbo, Super Castlevania 4, Super Ghouls and Ghosts, Contra 3, and Mega Man X. Street Fighter is the only fighting game on here, but it's a damn good one. The sprite work and sound design here are as good as it gets in a 16-bit game. Super Castlevania 4 has a brilliantly crafted, absorbing atmosphere that gets more and more intense the further you progress in the game. Super Ghouls and Ghosts is another game predicated on atmosphere, although this one has got to be one of the three or four most challenging SNES games ever made. Contra 3 is one of the most fun co-op games the SNES has to offer because there's no nuance or learning curve here, you just turn it on and kill everything that moves. And, of course, Mega Man X is, in my opinion, one of the five best Super Nintendo games ever made. It's action-platforming at its very best, featuring tons of different weapons, cleverly laid-out level design, and a kick-ass soundtrack. The Super Nintendo is probably best known for its role-playing games, and here we've got Secret of Mana, Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars, Final Fantasy VI, and Earthbound. Secret of Mana, in particular, is an inspired choice because, again, sorry to sound like a broken record, but it's two-player co-op. This game might be outdated in certain aspects, but it's still fun to juggle all the different weapons and squash all sorts of different enemies. Mario RPG is one of the more accessible role-playing games out there. Even if you don't usually like these kinds of games, this is one you can get into. Final Fantasy VI, on the other hand, this is your hardcore RPG experience right here, with an absolutely massive and multi-tiered story, with tons of characters, and a detailed battle system that'll keep you busy for dozens of hours. And Earthbound is, well, it's Earthbound. This is one of those acquired tastes. In my full review, I compared it to stuff like Big Lebowski and Tom Waits. It's laugh-out-loud funny and a lot of fun, and it's definitely worth checking out to see if it's up your alley. Now, all of these choices so far are easy and obvious inclusions, but one selection that's a little out-of-left field is Kirby's Dream Course. This is a fun multiplayer game that sees Kirby play the role of a golf ball in a mini golf game. It's interesting to me to see this game get picked, and I can't help but think that maybe the popular Game Grumps series from not too long ago had something to do with it. Anyway, this is the most surprising choice here, but it's still a quality title for sure. Alright, so there we go. That's 21 games on the SNES Classic Edition. There's a couple things I have to point out. For one thing, there's no beat-em-up games here, and no shoot-em-ups either. Something like Final Fight 3 would have fit in perfectly here in my opinion, but oh well. It's also a little strange that there's only seven co-op or versus multiplayer games here. That's weird, since there was such an emphasis put on multiplayer for the NES Classic. Also, I can't help but think that a package like this would have been a perfect opportunity to introduce a game like Terranigma to the rest of the world, but I mean, hey, we got Star Fox 2. That's a pretty nice surprise, so I can live with that.   And here's hoping Nintendo decides to make more than a couple hundred of these things so we can actually get one and use it, you know? Alright, I want to thank you for watching, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.


Chemical analysis today is very complex and time-consuming. The IBM AgroPad is paper-based analysis for agriculture. You deposit a liquid on the cart, just a droplet of the sample can be water, can be a soil extract. And then you flip the cart around, you essentially use a smartphone application to take a snapshot. So when you plant corn or tomatoes, there is always what we call the genetic potential. How much you can produce in that parcel of land? So what we want to do is to provide the simple device that they can test the soil and then they can correct the soil to maximize the production of what they want to produce.


Hey, welcome back everyone. Live Cube coverage here in the broadcast booth at VMware Explorer. I'm John Furrier, my co-host Dave Vellante. Also my co-host in the Cube pod. Check out the Cube podcast. Every week we break down all the action. Go to siliconangle.com for all the stories. Of course the cube.net, you'll find all the videos there. And today, this session, we're going to review the amazing panel we had yesterday modernizing the digital first multicloud world sponsored by Kindle. We're here with Sunil Bhargava, who's the senior VP of offerings with Kindle to review and just talk about the impact of that panel. We had Oracle Cloud, Azure Cloud, VMware, and of course Kindle. Very dynamic conversation. We're going to unpack that and more here. Dave, what a great conversation. Sunil, great to see you. Thanks for coming back on. Absolutely. It was wonderful to be here yesterday and happy to be here today. This is kind of like a backstage kind of review post-mortem. It was such a good video that we wanted to do on a replay, but also dig deeper because we hit on a bunch of things. Number one, I'll just summarize. The Oracle and Azure together on there with VMware showed multiple vendors talking multicloud in a way that was very productive. They were cooperative. They were talking to each other. They were open and a little bit of a debate, but not much debate. We're all on the same page. Yep. That I think was the biggest takeaway for our customers. What would normally be considered competitors actually sitting ready to cooperate for multicloud for the benefit of customers. Now what we discussed yesterday was many customers end up in multicloud. And now that they're there, you have the issues of policy, of skills that you have to naturally work on. And yes, companies like Kindrel can help address those issues. I use some of our talk. Okay, continue. Yeah, the one thing that we didn't get to cover so much is the deliberate move to multicloud and the new architectural concerns and the new culture concerns that come. And why would you need to do that? As the clouds diverge with the investments they are all making, the opportunity to truly leverage the best of each of the vendor partners we have to get lower economies, faster agility, and really start addressing the needs of JNAI and other operational requirements. That's the real opportunity. Well, and the Oracle Microsoft example is interesting because that's an example of a deliberate attempt to simplify, we were at SuperCloud 2 and I used that example with Insec Ray, who's a VC and he's like, you lost me at Oracle. I'm like, no, that's not fair because what they're doing is actually making it transparent to customers. So that was a big, to us, a big step in that deliberate, what you're calling a deliberate move to multicloud. That's exactly right. And some of the announcements that we have heard this week at VM Explorer are all about making that easier. Being able to do the multicloud architectures, apply policy, modernize more rapidly, and I'm really looking forward to bringing those technologies to our customers. Now that said, the press releases from Microsoft Oracle Center, they make it sound like you just show up and everything works just perfectly. So what role does Kindrel play in actually achieving that simplification and more importantly, realizing that customer value because that's really all about? That's a really good question. So all of these vendors are making the technology part easier and easier to do. But the plethora of technologies requires a skill set that now needs to be a mile wide. And the second is all the nuances of the customer situation, whether it's policy, compliance, data protection, integrations, and some challenges around latency and others that aren't quite available to be absorbed by GenAI, aren't available to be absorbed by code, it really requires knowledge and experience. That's the value Kindrel brings, whether it is to modernize or to operate. So a lot of that is architectural and some companies have that in-house expertise. Many don't or maybe they don't have the bandwidth. Then you've got security concerns and we could talk for hours about the menu of things you've got to deal with. And the architectural about what is the existing state versus the multi-cloud architecture, two different skill sets. And you need access to both to get the job done. Let's take it to the deliberate move, why you see it. And first, I want to tell you a story last night. After the panel, we were out at the VMware Executive mixer and then we met up with you guys later. I've been using that line like multi-clouds, like a collection of things, broken toys or toys you use once in a while. They don't really work well together. I got teams over here. I might have something in, it was here, I used Google for some BigQuery. It's not threaded together, it's not running. And so, which is what we call SuperCloud, that kind of operating model. And the feedback we're hearing from customers, I asked the VMware folks is like, customers are driving the change, not so much the clouds. The clouds will be multi-cloud enabled with technology, but the customers are asking for stuff to work better together. So, and they agreed, you made this point yesterday in the panel, I want to get your thoughts. What is the deliberate move to the cloud look like? Why? What's the motivation? What's the starting point? What's the attitude of the customer? Are they apprehensive? Are they just hostile? I got to get to the cloud. Are they enthusiastic? What's the attitude of the customer as they move to the cloud? What's inspiring them? That's a great point. You know, the move to a cloud was always hampered with security concerns and not being able to physically touch the hardware you own. People have gotten over that, but the conversation remained which cloud? Due to acquisitions, technology introduction, teams preference, customers have found themselves being on multiple clouds today, and now wondering how do you apply policy consistently? Security policy, compliance policy, fiscal policy, whatever policy, how do you apply that consistently? So as we begin to help customers do that, the realization comes in, we no longer have to choose one cloud. We can actually exploit the best of all the existing clouds that we already have in our enterprise. That realization, that having addressed policy and now moving to architecture, having skills on hand through a delivery partner like Kindrel actually creates an opportunity that frankly was too expensive earlier. Great call out, I wanted you to get that out there, but I don't want to throw a wrinkle in here. One is how AI has changed the conversation, because now we're talking about data, and another point that was made by the hyperscalers was by unbundling the focus on the applications and pulling the data out of the app was an interesting comment, because now data becomes the key element to watch between the cloud-migrate movement. So okay, have multiple clouds, there might be separate applications, but now I have data that can be harvested and leveraged by AI, that kind of shines the light on it and too creates a mandate. It absolutely does, and it started at the edge. Data was being generated at the edge for the longest time, but only in the last five years or so were we able to start harvesting it, synthesizing it, pre-processing it, sharing it back home. Now that problem which existed only at the edge now exists across every one of the multi-cloud landing zones that our customers have. The technology, the methodologies, the architectures that people had done, used for multi-tiered data analysis is one of the routes to use on multi-cloud. There are other routes, some of the vendors, as you mentioned, Oracle and Azure in particular are working together to make data access easier, but GenAI, the biggest challenge it's posing, is data management, policy around it, knowing what you're allowed to use and what you're not allowed to use, and making sure that when you use GenAI to make productions, are you actually using a representative data set? Can you trust the outcome? That really puts a big shine on data. It's not just making the plumbing work. There's a data strategy, there's legal and compliance issues. The other thing, too, I would say, John and Sunil, is just in observing the year of AI, there are a lot of, and we buy the premise that you need to have this sort of, what VMware's calling private AI. Private AI, yes. Because of the legal issues, John, you and I have talked about this a lot, we've done a lot of research in it as well, our power law, distribution of AI, so it all makes sense, but when you look around at what's available for customers to actually deploy, you get a lot of stuff in the cloud. If I want to do things in a hybrid or a multi-cloud or even a non-prem fashion, I see reference architectures, I see a lot of complexity, I see a lot of immaturity, and so that's, again, where you guys bring skillsets. How do you think about bringing that to market for customers, are you getting a lot of demand for, hey, help? We don't really understand how to make this stuff work. What are the dimensions that they're asking for help in? That's a great point. So complexity is one of the biggest challenges they end up facing, and generally with complexity comes elongated timelines. What our customers are bringing us to us is the desire for agility through minimum viable product that can iterate, deliver value to the organization, because some of the things they're now stepping into are actually culture changes within their organization. So waiting for a perfect solution is not really what they're looking for. They're looking for iterative solutions that give insights, allows them to do the change management, skill development, funding, clarity, while continuing to progress on this journey. So that actually puts a point that we had talked about yesterday with managed services and how managed services now becomes in parallel to this innovation. Enabling it, supporting it, no longer transform first and then manage later, but rather doing it in parallel streams. Sonia, we've been following Kindrel since the launch of the venture, the renaming and seeing the success of it. And now with the whole AI and multi-cloud, it's much more mainstream in the sense of the urgency that they're in. What attracted you to join Kindrel? And how do you see the role of Kindrel orchestrating and leading this transformation on behalf of customers? That's a great question, John. Thank you. So Kindrel has 75 of the top, 100 Fortune, 100 companies, equally large number of the Fortune 500, all the major banks. And they have some of the most complex environments, but the innovation drivers they have and what they can do for their customers also poses a great opportunity. So when I was looking, I concluded that that opportunity is probably the richest. Then the next question is, is Kindrel set to actually achieve the opportunity there? And what we find in Kindrel, enormous customer-centric scientists, customer-centric delivery personnel, customer-centric teams, and I'm really excited about the energy in our company to help customers achieve the value from Kindrel. And that requires a variety of operating models. Some customers want to in-source part, outsource part, collaborate in co-sourcing. Those various operating models is one of the strengths of Kindrel. And for that reason, I think I wanted to join a company that's best positioned structurally to really achieve success in this hybrid world where it's not just clouds that are hybrid, but the entire way IT is delivered is becoming hybrid, but DevSecOps, at the same time as Cots applications, all intertwined delivering value. And I'm excited to see that my suspicions about this being the company that can deliver it, turning out to be true. You were talking earlier about the thinking about the management and the transformation together as sort of a parallel exercise. But when a customer comes to you and says, okay, help us figure out our AI strategy, you got us data is obviously a critical piece of that. Given you've got application, portfolio, there's an opportunity to modernize that. Are those also parallel efforts or do you take those sequentially? In other words, hey, you got to get your data order in order before you can even think about that or do you sort of in parallel think about your application portfolio and all the business impacts? Another great question. So your question started off with strategy. Strategy has to be done in parallel. Execution can be serialized and sometimes it needs to be, but strategies always needs to be done in parallel so that you're not coming back to revisit decisions you made. Because of the highly iterative ways delivery happens now, execution not just serialized, but sometimes leading, sometimes trailing. We do see that happening as well. Sunil, great to have you back on. What a great panel. Kendrill did yesterday. I think the panel yesterday that you led with your partners kind of encapsulates multi-cloud. It really did. It really did. There was good conversations, honest, intellectually honest, people were engaged. I've never seen anything like it. It was a very big success. I want to thank you for doing that. We really appreciate it. Thanks for coming back on. To give us more insight into your vision and Kendrill. Thank you very much. Okay, it's theCUBE. We're live here in Las Vegas, the broadcast booth in VMware Explore. This is theCUBE. SiliconANGLE on theCUBE. Go to SiliconANGLE.com. Check out our new theCUBEAI.com. That's our special language model. Also go to theCUBE.net for this video and all of our videos from VMware as well. 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