T-Mobile says the time is now 6.39 and tonight's meeting of the Development Review Board has been called to order. The DRB is a quasi-judicial volunteer resident board that upholds standards and procedures as defined in the Lewinowski zoning ordinance. Review and make decisions on subdivisions, site plans, conditional uses, variances, and also appeals of the zoning administrator's determinations. The DRB has authority through the Vermont State Statute and ensures due process protects the rights of applicants and rights of the public to participate in proposals for land development within the city. Appeals of decisions made by the DRB are heard by the Vermont Superior Court Environmental Division and the Vermont Supreme Court. Kevin Lumpkin is our board chair. We are currently trying to get him here. My name is Matt Basowitz. I'm the vice chair. Harlan Miller is not here. He is our board secretary. Also tonight, our board member is Erin Gayet, Elsie Goodrich, David Weisberger, Caitlin Hayes, as well as Bob DePalma, and Eric Fourwald. Actually, Matt, just as a point of reference, Harlan is in the room here with me tonight. Oh, he is. And I'm going to, while I'm going to pause here for a second so I can start my recording because I forgot to, but I also just want to make sure the audience can hear properly. Can everybody hear OK in the audience? OK, great. Recording in progress. OK. Excellent. I apologize for dog barking. Something's happening downstairs. First order on the agenda is, are there any changes to the agenda? Would anybody like to propose any changes to the agenda as delivered to us several days ago? Seeing a lot of shaking heads, we will move on to, let's see, number three, which is public comment. Vermont's open meeting law grants an opportunity for public comment at every public meeting. If anybody would like to comment about anything that is not on our current agenda, this is your opportunity. Hearing nothing, seeing nothing, we will move on to the approval of the previous meeting minutes. I did have a chance to look through them. I see no changes. Does anybody else on our board here know of anything that should be changed on the minutes from our previous meeting? Hearing nothing, seeing nothing, we will entertain a motion to approve the minutes from the previous meeting. So a motion? David motions. Anybody second? Erin seconds. All in favor of approving the minutes, please say aye or raise your hand. Aye, aye. Harland, I don't know. Wasn't there. Abstain. Abstain. OK. Motion carries with one abstention. Next on our agenda is an appeal of the zoning administrator's decision for 379 and 381 Main Street, as I mentioned just before we started. I personally had a chance to kind of go through the paperwork. I don't know that I'm the appropriate person to officially moderate this procedure just because I don't know that I have all of the background information. But I believe that maybe Bob is a good person to give us a little bit of background and then tell us who we should be hearing from first. You need to unmute yourself, Bob. Yep, I'm unmuted. Thanks, Matt. So this is an appeal from a certificate of conformity issued by the zoning administrator under the form-based code. As I understand the notice of appeal, the appellant is concerned about one or more of the conditions in the certificate of compliance relating to the site plans showing the wall and the plant things along the southern edge of the parking area for this project. I should point out that the certificate of conformity is set up so that there are a number of conditions to the certificate, which the applicant will need to satisfy. And upon satisfaction of each of those conditions, the zoning administrator will issue a zoning permit. So we're sort of in midstream on this project in that I do not believe all of the conditions have been satisfied as of yet. But as I understand the appeal, it relates to whether the adjoining landowner is satisfied with the proposal with respect to the wall between the parking area and the adjoining properties. I do understand that the applicant has submitted an updated plan, which may or may not have provided information that the appellant was looking for. So what I would suggest is that we have the applicant, if he's here, do a brief presentation on that issue. Thank you. At this time, I would invite the applicants to join the meeting either here on Zoom or in person. Yeah, Matt, so just for your reference, most everybody is in the room tonight. So the applicant, the appellant, and other members of the public are here. Actually, Kevin just joined as well, the meeting. So he is also here with us, but most everybody is here tonight. Perfect. Hey, Matt. Hey, Kevin. Are you? So sorry, I completely just got erased from my brain and supplanted with some personal stuff that I'm dealing with this evening. Do y'all have a quorum? Do you need me to move things around? You look very well-tended here with five without me. We are well-tended. We invite you to join and moderate, if possible, seeing as you've had some more background here. But if that's not possible, then we do have a quorum. Hi, I would prefer to leave it in your capable hands together with those of Bob, if that's all right with you, Matt. That's fine. Yeah. You're the man. Sorry, folks, for interrupting. And I apologize. That's all right. Have a good night, and we'll catch you next time. Thank you very much. Matt, if it's the practice of the boards of swear and witnesses, I think it would be appropriate to do that before anybody speaks. It is. So at this time, anybody who choose to speak for or against, this appeals process in any manner, we invite you to please swear that everything you are about to say is the whole truth, nothing but the truth, under the pains and penalties of perjury. Please raise your right hand and affirm that that is true. Lots of hands raised. Thank you so much. So now at this time, we invite the applicant to please join. So if you want to come up to the table here, I have all the documents on my screen that I can bring up and share so that everybody out in the virtual world can see as well as the folks behind you. So please introduce yourself as well. My name is Carl Marshall. So I work for older Berksville Associates and the civil engineer working on the project with G4, the architects. Eric, if you could bring up sheet one, the 60 scale plan with the existing proposed conditions. Please. So my understanding of the appeal is for screening. And Mr. Bruck is, I talked to one, a very nice person who's got concerns about headlights and stuff on to belt you. So what we've done is that big line that you see in purple is a six foot high vinyl fence that we intend to put one foot from the property line to satisfy the conditions. The reason that we want to put in a fence on the lower section, where it's neighborhood manners, I think there's question about whether it's a fence or it should be like a wall. But on the Southern property line, we feel like and everywhere else, the reason that we're proposing that is there's quite a few mature trees. I brought an excerpt. I don't think we're gonna be able to really blow it up because I brought it just on paper. But the emphasis is that there's some very big, mature trees along the property line. And we're willing to put in six foot fence so that there's no headlights shining onto the neighboring properties. And we're also moving while the parking lot is about 18 feet away from the property line. So we're gonna be able to put some mature trees in there per the regulations. And we feel like we're meeting all the intent of the regulations. So that's my understanding of the reason that we're here tonight. I will entertain any questions from the board if there are any. So these trees that we see on this plan are all proposed to be planted? The green trees on there that you kind of see as row trees are to be planted, correct. It's to give it that sort of row look that I think is the intention of the regulations. And then the screening, the regulations say one foot from the property line. So that's where we're showing the purple sort of lines and little squares portrays the fence as shown in the legend and through across the entire property. Yep, just like Eric showing it there. And we're also doing the neighborhood manners in that and the reason I don't think it applies here, but we said that pretty explicitly that we're doing defense and set of the wall in an effort to try to minimize tree and root disturbance to try to preserve as many of those big mature trees that are near that property line as much as possible. Is it safe to assume that the trees we see in the plans are meant more for aesthetics as opposed to screening and the fence is okay? The fence is for screening and the trees are for the visual appearance because they should grow up above the six foot vinyl fence. And so it's really just to kind of give it that I guess, just give it that appearance of big growing trees or big trees that are gonna grow to be mature and canopy over the parking area provides some shade. I mean, I imagine that's the intent of the regulations. So the spacing and all that kind of stuff is based on your regulations. If I have the memo from the zoning manager correctly, it seems that there's no specifications or requirements for the role that apply in this location, but it seems like that's what the appellant is mostly concerned about. Have you, do you have specifications or drawings for what that fence will be or will those be spelled out before the zoning or building permit is applied for? To be honest with you, I'm not, well, I don't recall if we put in our specific detail but it's very explicit on the plans, the call outs for a six foot high vinyl fence. And so my understanding would be six foot high of white vinyl fence, just like you could get a home depot or any kind of like specialty store that sells fencing or have it installed, but that's the intention there. And I believe that along that Southern property line, our only requirement is a fence and not a wall. Is that correct, Eric? Correct. So that's our intention, six foot high white vinyl fence. I mean, if there's any doubt in anybody's mind, we could certainly put a detail on one of the detail sheets and call out more specific of the board so insists. And I guess, you know, we'd be happy to have that conversation with you folks tonight if you find that helpful to satisfy all the neighbor's concerns. Now, did you say you had something on paper that might offer up a better visual representation of what we're talking about? I brought views from the corridor. And I think that's, I need to get hold of the camera, but. You want to see what we're gonna do? Eric, and if possible, I'd like to see if we can get a copy of those entered. Zoom in, just hang out there. We can, he can zoom in his camera. Okay. This camera here, just, you just say where you are, Carl, hold, let him do the zoom. Okay, I'll see you right here.  Oh, okay. So this is the first excerpt that I brought. And it's really just a Google Earth image from the street perspective. I don't know if you guys, I mean, I can get closer to the camera too, but. Actually, let me stop my share as well. That might help. I mean, I can definitely, I'm gonna leave these with Eric. And what are we looking at there? The mature trees? Yes. Yes. So I don't know if you can zoom in more or I can get closer, but yeah, this is really tough. All right. This is not gonna help. Okay. I can see it. Yeah. Let's look at that. I can see it. So all those trees, all those will be cut down? This is the street view for, I believe it's 53 to the right that you can see the garage in the back. And so in perspective on the plan, I mean, I could, we could go back and point to the plan, but I guess kind of visualize what that looks like, the garage in the background there. And then we'll show you where it is on the map. So that's that one. And then we're gonna show the other side of the house right next to it. Which is that one. So that's the street view looking from Bellevue towards what will be the fence behind that garage. This one right here. And on the plan view, Eric, if you would bring that back up, I'm pretty sure you can point to it. But I can guide you kind of where those pictures show the representation from the street view. You get the right picture up here. Sorry that I'm asking so many things, Eric, to jump back and forth, but I know you're the man.  So yeah, that's it. So we're looking right and left of that house on those two views. And obviously from the street view, there's a lot going on there in terms of structure. So for that particular property, even though he was the one concerned, I think really you're not gonna see much. But for all the other properties that don't have, you know, structures that close to the property line. I think the fence will be more of a benefit perhaps as far as, you know, lights and that kind of stuff that that's the concern. So just because like when I spoke with Mr. Brack I thought, you know, he was the one most interested in the proper screening. I just wanted to bring those visual images so that we could take a closer look with the board about what that's gonna look like from the street perspective and, you know, what you'd see passing by and that kind of stuff. So that first image that you held up with the current existing trees, is the goal for this new planting after these trees planted behind this final fence mature to mimic what's existing there currently? The trees that we're gonna propose are gonna look obviously like more row trees because a lot of stuff is kind of brushy. And obviously there's no consistency with species and whatnot. So, you know, in having to build a parking lot, we're gonna loosen trees. And so I feel like the trees that we're proposing are gonna be just a good addition to sort of make the transition from existing to new plantings to parking lot. Will you be keeping any trees? We're gonna keep as many trees as we can. But unfortunately, I wanna do some grading and you can see those contours on the plan. We can zoom into it, but I'm not really sure if, you know, Public Works has looked at this and I'll be happy to talk about drainage, but I don't know if that's part of what I should be talking about there. You have the floor. We're gonna do some re-grading on the property to bring all the stormwater to those two structures that you see directly behind the building. The reason there's two structures there is if one fails, there's a second one. I just don't want to take any chances. I don't want anybody to get flooded. And then we're gonna put in a brand new pipe and we're gonna connect that stormpipe to the existing run. And the intention there is to minimize any stormwater issues. And then are those stormwater basins near the second driveway out? So if you zoom in right behind the building, Eric, can you zoom in there? Or we could look at Plancheat 2 as well, if you want, that's a bigger perspective. So if you look on that plan where Eric's pointing to right there, all the drainage were those two sort of handicap spaces that you see. There's one basin there and then there's two basins right there. That's the low spot of the site. One spot is one foot lower than the other basin. So if the low basin plugs, the second basin will take all the water and drain it away. That's the sort of fail safe. And then if that doesn't work, it would overflow because the basin trajectory that goes to that gravel wetland is lower than the owner's property. So the intention is to drain all the stormwater into that gravel wetland. And then there's a structure that you see on the bottom left corner of your screen. And that's the outlet mechanism to let the water back into the structure at a controlled rate because we have to get a state stormwater permit. Mm-hmm. Have you acquired that from the state? Or is that still in the box? No, because we had an appeal and I guess from what I understand, it's rare to see an appeal with form-based code. We were just waiting to see how this was gonna go. We've seen many appeals with the form-based code. Well, I mean, and it's totally... It's my first one. And so I just thought we should be prudent and see what happens, because just the way the guard's on the table, if there's anything wrong with the plans or there's significant changes and we are already into the state, then we're going to get an amendment which pretty much doubles the length of time and more money to spend. And so we wanna make sure that everybody's happy with the plan before we go get a state permit. That was our thinking. The other exit out of the parking lot onto Bellevue? Is there another depression there? Yeah. Right there, yeah. I spoke with all the folks on our team and I told them that it was my opinion that because we're over an acre that we're gonna have to put a stormwater feature there. So even though we're just creating a 20 foot wide access for the fire people that asked that we should have the second emergency access because there's a gravel surface there, we have to address stormwater as well. That's why that feature is there. So it's a pre-treatment to a basin and when we do our full investigation of the stormwater system, you may have to work with VPW to put an overflow but we haven't, we've talked about it with Ryan Lambert but we haven't finalized sort of a potential overflow or need to one. So we need to do test pits to be frank. Like March, we're gonna do some test pits. We're gonna finalize the stormwater and then we'll submit to the state. That's our intention. And then is that a similar situation with the far rear of the lot? That's correct. So the gravel wetland, there's no doubt about it. We don't have to do any testing. We know that it's kind of wet there. So we're not gonna meet the three feet of separation. What's gonna dictate the system two and three is whether we have the three feet of separation in groundwater and by the maps, we should. But that's what we don't go by the maps.  And so your fence will extend the whole southern border. What about that? I guess, is that the east end there? The far bottom there? Yeah. There's a chain link fence there now with a bunch of vines and vineyards. I don't have any pictures, but I have some in the file. We actually surveyed another property very close to this one. We have a lot of information for that area of the corridor. I don't have it with me tonight, but let's just say that because of the stormwater features and proximity, we feel like we don't have to put a fence there because there's already a chain link fence and it would look kind of weird because we don't own the fence. Yes. So we were just thinking, let's stop it at the corner. Sure. So that was sort of our thought process there. And your neighbor to the north is the school district? Yep. Is anyone from the school district here this evening? Was the school district involved in any of the talks? They were notified of all the meetings. Yeah. I don't know if this, I don't know if you guys want to know this, the board, but I spoke with their engineer from EV. Yep. And I asked for information about their stormwater system during the underwater property. He wasn't sort of coming bracing a little bit. And he said things that I didn't like, so I said something to the fact of, well, maybe we could just close that stormpipe off then. And he was like, well, you can't do that. And it's like, well, it's our property. So we're fixing a problem that we feel isn't ours, but we're volunteering to fix that problem in effort to sort of allow this project forward. Is there a stormpipe from the school's property onto this? The best way to see it is Eric have just scroll that up and look at the existing conditions, maybe? I don't want to get too far into the proverbial cat-tails here. No. No stormwater pun intended. So on the existing conditions plan is a lighter blue shade line. And it's a little hard to see. Yes. But there's an existing pipe that goes through that garage and follows Eric's cursor. And we have locations on the pipe on that blue pipe that goes all the way up to the sort of towards Norman Street there. Goes through that garage? Does. Yeah. Not ideal. Hopefully there's no drain pipe in there. Yeah. We talked to the owner and he said that there's no settlement issues and he just does not want to be concerned. But part of our solution is to align that pipe and fix it so that the city has more control over where that stormwater goes from here forward after the project's completed. And that pipe flows south? Correct. Or I'm sorry, project south on this? Yeah, project south. Looking at that plan, we're kind of like Norse like this. But yeah. Well, Eric's got to, you know, that's the perfect orientation for the visual purposes. Yeah, yeah. On sheet two, I think you've got a note that is in conflict with what you're saying. OK. Existing storm line and disrepair to be abandoned, pointing to that line. There might be miscellaneous going on there because what happened is, well, it's a long story, but the short version is we were going to reroute the stormwater around his house. And then he decided he wouldn't even want to tear up his yard. So we're actually going to do it from structure to structure. So that structure right there shouldn't be there. Should have been erased. That's a mistake. But we're going to line that pipe that goes through his garage and basically restore it to a new condition or as best as we can so that it's usable. So the long winded write-up that we wrote back to the city of Wynimsky was to explore slip lining, spray coating, or any fashion that, after investigation, what was going to be the best solution to fix that existing storm pipe right there through that? Because I don't think we should put an easement on and put the burden on the city of Wynimsky. And I think they would have been OK with it if it wasn't through the Sergeant's Garage. But that's the kind of discussion that we had with the city and the public works. And so we left the easement starting at the back. And then we're just going to repair the existing pipe. And everything from there forward in blue is going to be branding. So if there is a miscellaneous or erroneous note there, we'll be happy to make that change. Because these changes happen pretty rapidly to get it to Eric for the 10th. And so I was kind of rushing to get these plans modified to make that change. Is this property going to have an easement across the Lassage property? No, the easement is going to start right at that structure that's pointed to the fix right there in that note. What's to stop the Lassage property from removing that pipe in the future? If he removes it, he's going to get flooded. So it may be his advantage not to remove it. But I don't know. Isn't that the same argument you were just making about the school, though? You got me there. That's true. That's true. Well, we definitely don't want them to remove the pipe. And I think I should emphasize that that was just a joke. We have no intention of blocking the pipe. So I was joking to the guy, because he kind of called my buff, so I called his. A few questions. So one related to the storm pipe is if there's not an easement or a right of way, who's responsible for maintaining that in the future? Myself, the city of Winooski, public works, and I think the school district do not know the answer to it. Be honest. That's just the honest, the goodness truth. No one will touch it, but it's there. And it's draining a lot of property. So it's in our best interest to make the repairs for everyone's benefit. That's my opinion. OK, and one other question I'd read. The provision for the fence was that it was to be between 4 and 8 feet. Yeah. And I just was curious if there would there be a benefit? You had mentioned that the fence in this site plane is going to be 6 feet high. Is there a benefit for those adjacent property owners for it to be the additional 2 feet? I understand that it seems like it's lower, so probably want to protect from headlights or anything more than the 6 foot fence already know. So usually like a measured site distance is at 3 and 1 half. I feel like the headlight is more like 2 and 1 half or 3. But regardless of if you want to split hairs on that, the thought process is there is 6 feet. You can kind of see over it. It's not like, oh my god, I can't see over it. Well, if you're quite tall, you can kind of see over a 6 fence, but it's going to provide the adequate screening. And I feel like 8 feet is kind of daunting. We just thought that was just too much. And we thought 4 feet wasn't enough, so we went the middle and went 6. That was our thought process. And then I just had one other follow-up question. So for any new trees that are planted, I noticed that there are, I think, inco trees. And this maybe is a question for Eric, too. I'm just curious that if there's anything that asks to have native trees planted when we're for projects like this, or if there's no regulations or requirements for that. So I'll tell you my answer, I guess, if that's OK. That species, we work with gardener supply. They're a local supplier, and they say they're hardy zone 4. There's just a lot of good things going for that type of tree. It's very hardy, salt tolerant, just versus cold. I mean, there's all these things. So every time I do a project, I consult with a local predominantly, because there's a lot of towns that actually accept gardener supplies like design that we work with them. In this case, I consulted with them because we did another project on Main Street, and we chose the same species. And they recommended for the site, for the soils, that we show them on the map was most appropriate. OK. Yeah, thanks. I just was curious with them. Excellent. Any other questions from the board? I have just one other. OK. So my question, just getting back to the fencing, which is what this appeal is primarily about. The north border along Norman, there are several houses there. I did see a purple line adjacent to those. Is it safe to assume that you're planning the exact same fence? Yes, we're going to do a six-foot vinyl fence. It matches the legend, and that's our intention, is to meet the neighborhood manners with a six-foot vinyl fence. OK, there's a retaining wall there now, so we're going to go right against that. OK. And I don't. I have one question. Go for it then. Yeah, what in general is the relation of the new parking lot to the houses, say, on Bellevue? I don't see many grades down there. Is it pretty flat with those, or is it up higher? The location that you're referring to, if you look on the Bellevue property that is grading that basically hits almost existing grading almost immediately, and all the way down through that corridor is just to be slightly higher and then drain and tie in to create a swale to those three catch basins. And on the other side, for draining all the stormwater floors, the sort of easterly feature. So all the grading is east-west. But the way you're looking at it, I guess, from what you're looking at it, you can tell by the grading it's all right to left, or all right or all left. The high point starts at the emergency access and goes by their direction. So it's like the whole site is sloping up to the east. We're trying to create a high point. I can't see my grades, but just from doing it, it's almost just slightly left there, where it looks like a V-shape, I believe. Eric, if you can see that V-shape, that's the high point. Yeah, Eric, a little bit more right. Sorry, a little bit more right there. That V-shape, those two contours are the high point. The road, the emergency access, so the residents cannot use that normally? Understanding is it's for emergency access only. And how do you control that? I'm not sure if that was really asked of us there. Was that who we asked, how we're going to control that? Can you hear? I mean, that's the switch on the spotter. No, that's OK. The fire department did ask for a second access. I believe the certificate of conformity, which should be included in your agenda packet, does indicate an emergency access that is regulated per whatever the fire department is looking for. So the intent is not for that to be used by the residents. It's intended for. So that'll be a gate or something. Or some, that's the expectation, yes. And whatever that is will be something that is discussed with the fire department so that they can get in as needed. And so that the adjoiners don't have traffic ripping through there. Not that anyone would rip, but they would drive through there. We should let all of you street. They would rip through there is what you're saying. Doesn't just happen on Bellevue. People rip everywhere. That's a discussion for another evening. Yes. So obviously, this appeal is primarily about the privacy screening, the fencing, and the request for a design before that goes to the approval process. So keeping in line with that, if there are no other questions about that, I believe that we can probably talk to the appellant if there are no other questions for Carl. Hearing nothing, seeing nothing, let us ask the appellants if they are there for a representative of the appellant who's joining. OK. Charles, who do we have? Bruk. Bruk. Yes, please. Please come up and introduce yourself. I'm sorry, I did not get your name. My name's Chuck Bruk. OK. Yes, it rhymes. So I live on 25 Bellevue Street. I'm the appellate for this. Would like to make it known. Did talk to both Joe and Carl about the plans a couple weeks ago, and they did give me a preview of some of the updates. I do think it is important, though, that we do have this appeals process as the Project Review Committee seem to be a pretty inadequate forum to address some of the concerns. And I like that the development review board, you guys are asking some great questions. I think this whole part, the appeal process is really to make sure that both myself and the rest of the neighbors to have all of our concerns heard in a way that's going to be productive and help, hopefully, the whole development process here. I'm just pulling something right out of the form-based code from 103, making sure that we have a complementary relationship between the quarters and the surrounding neighborhoods. I think that's really important to this entire process that everybody actually does have a chance to get heard on the record and make sure that any concerns do get addressed. So in regards to the fence specifically, it wasn't just for my property on 25 Bellevue, speaking to other neighbors, it was certainly a concern for everybody in terms of both the screening considerations and also just safety concerns of having a much more increased both vehicle and pedestrian traffic going through. So we didn't want to make sure, or we wanted to make sure that we didn't have a bunch of people chasing through the backyards, pun intended, as the original plans didn't have any specifically prescribed screening or fencing and really the basis for the appeal at that point. Anything else to add? I mean, at this point, I think it would be, Carl was great on the phone, I was able to talk to him. Joe was also very agreeable when discussing some of the concerns, and they sounded like they were very much willing to work with the neighborhood. So I think as long as that dialogue can remain open, as some of the finer details do get hammered up, like the fence specifically, and I think addressing any of the other concerns that have been come up while talking with the other neighbors, like drainage was one specifically. I know that there's concerns around removing some of the mature canopy that exists there. No, it's not gonna be possible to save everything, but I think making sure all efforts are included to make sure that we do that will be important, as we do have a nice biodiversity going on in the backs of all of our homes. I think it'd be great to be able to keep some of that. So that would be my goal out of this. So it was my understanding that there was no indication of a fence when these plans were eventually, when you first saw these plans and requesting, the better evidence you wanted to see what they were going to actually do for your privacy screening. Are you satisfied at this point, knowing there is going to be a six foot fence installed along with those trees? Or are you looking for a more specific design? At the moment, knowing that they exist in the plan, I think it's sufficient, but again, like I mentioned, it'd be beneficial for everybody involved to have the input of the adjoining neighborhood, adjoining neighbors throughout the process, as you know, still the plans exist on paper and nothing's been put actually in motion yet. Okay. Anybody else have any questions for Charlie? Yeah, regarding an expectation for open communication lines remaining as this project moves forward, are there any sort of guardrails or specific expectations that you'd like to voice? I mean, so far, Carl and Joe, like I mentioned, they were communicative, receptive, and seemed really open to working both with myself on my concerns and the neighbors in general. So I think as long as that there's good faith behind that, then that's sufficient for me. Okay. Thank you. Dana, did you have something? No, you raised your finger looking like you had something to say. Any other questions for Chuck before we move on? Okay, thank you so much, Chuck. I appreciate it. We will now invite members of the crowd, either online or in person, to voice concerns or voice support for the project, the appeal, all of those, if anybody would like to. So Matt, let me, I'll just jump in here real quick. We did have two people sign up to speak tonight. So, and they are both here in the room with me. Okay. So if you want, I can call them up in the order that they signed up and then we can open it up to the rest of the folks in the room here and then go to anybody that's online. We have two people attending virtually as well. So if you're okay with that, I'll go in that order. That sounds wonderful. Who do we have first? Okay, Emma, you are first up if you wanna speak. Okay, we can come back to you. Andrew, you are next on the list. Andrew Wolfe of 21 Bellevue Street. I'm a landscaper. I'm trying to be a member of the Vermont Nursery and Landscape Association and a certified horticulture. And my primary concerns are about the trees and the landscaping and from what I can see from what Joe's talking about, that it's on their mind and that's great, at least it's on their mind. And I was just really hoping that they would just preserve as much of the canopy as they can over there. I know it's difficult with the construction project. There's a couple of butternut trees that are super mature and that's very rare. There's a lot of birds back there that there's gonna be a hiccup and where they go during the construction. And I just wanted to just highlight chapter 29 of the municipal code that talks a lot about public tree planting and provides some guidelines for that, using native species and ensuring that's a different code, I guess, to talk about the complementary relationship between the corridors and the surrounding neighborhoods. In my mind, you would, at least to some degree, preserve the existing aesthetic. And I think with a nice row of trees where all the mature branches are touching each other, some shrubs and a vinyl fence, I think that would be accomplished with this new project. So that's my main concern and it's really nice to hear Joe speaking and to see those plans. Thank you. I think what I'm gathering is you support the proposed changes. I support it. I guess my concern is how many trees are we getting? Is the canopy gonna be tight enough? There's really no guidance in the municipal code for that, but just a number to throw around here in the Vermont Urban and Community Forest Program. There was a public inventory of trees in Winooski in 2013 that showed that Winooski by and large is 31% covered by tree canopy. And as a number to shoot for, I would say I would really like to see 31% of whatever they're building covered by tree canopy to follow suit with what's already going on in the neighborhood there. So that's what I came to say. All right, thank you, Andrew. Any other questions for him? It's not really a question, but maybe it's a question for Eric. It seems that the section that was pointed out in the memo requires that the trees be planted on a maximum spacing of 30 feet. And I don't know what a Ginko tree ends up with. It has a mature tree, but that seems fairly close. I mean, I don't know how much closer you'd wanna plant them. And I guess if we were going back to ask if that's what we're seeing on the plan is that are those 30 feet centers? That's what the code requires. So that's what we would require them to install. And Eric, can you clarify the intent? I don't really understand that section 506 about the tree list is not really a list. It's basically anything that's hardy in this zone is what it sounds like. That is correct. I don't know if when the code was written that there was a separate list that was just not included or I don't know the history there, but you're correct. So I'm gonna go back to Andrew actually with a question seeing as he is knowledgeable about landscaping. Do you believe that the layout and species that have been picked so far will adequately recreate the canopy that already exists?  It will definitely be more neat and orderly, but I would very much like to see shade trees, that would be a little more of a windbreak rather than street trees. I mean, anything's good, but rather than kinkos and crab apples, I'd rather see maples and oats personally. Okay. On page five on the landscape plant list says the tree symbol can be a combination of any zone for improved trees, including red maple or honey locust or ginko as in the chart. So I'm wondering, maybe we can ask Chuck again, if the intent is for sure to go with the ginkos or are those other ones options? I think it makes it a more interesting space in general and provides a little bit more... Can't hear him, sorry. Chuck is saying he would prefer a mix of species just for greater interest. Well, thank you, Andrew, for joining us. Is there anybody else that would like to come up and speak? I would say if you're interested in speaking, come on up and then I'm up here with anything you wanna say, feel free to jump in. My apologies, Eric, when I sent my letter to you, I thought that was my go ahead to speak, so I didn't know I had to sign up for it. My name is Mike Myers. I live at 47 Bellevue Street. I wanna thank everyone for showing up here tonight. I think this is a productive way to do an appeal process. Mr. Handy, I'd like to thank you for being here. You've been a great partner for the City of Onouski for many, many years. I have a few questions. Not only on the fencing for the appeal, and I wanna make it clear that we weren't just looking for screening, we were looking to secure our properties now that you're taking two and a half acres of green space that is really not passable, and many of us have sheds and we store campers and bolts and stuff in our backyards.  Is that okay? So I can speak a little bit better? Sure, while you're speaking. Security was a big reason why we were wanting a secured fence line on our properties, especially with the high school there. There's gonna be a lot more traffic in the back there. When we obviously, many of us hang out in our backyards because it's the very night, if you know Bellevue Street, our backyards are very nice. Many of us spend our summer nights back there. So I wanna thank the architect or the engineer, Carl, we have a mat for getting this done, and I do support this sort of fencing, so I think it's gonna be very hard to either jump, and I think it's gonna do its job to screen our properties. I did, when I wrote my letter to Eric, I did have a huge issue with the drainage. Anyone that lives on Bellevue Street, especially in my section, my Sump Pump runs 365 days a year. In fact, it runs just as much in the winter time as it does in the summertime. So I have a huge concern about the drainage and the water that, if this isn't done right, could cause a severe problem to my summer block foundation that's already kinda has some issues with it as is. Also, when it rains, my backyard fills up, and if the rain does not drain properly, or if we get a huge storm where the basins can't handle or the drains, the grade can't handle it, where's that excess water gonna go? There's a lot of green space being paved over now, and I have a huge concern about what's gonna happen to my property for drainage. The other issue, and it brings, I'm glad I came here because I didn't realize the school had a drainage because I'm wondering if that's part of the problem with our yards back there with the school drainage because like I said, I have, I think it's called a French drainage system. You have that three-inch mold system around your basement. You can constantly see water pouring in my basement, even this time of year when, I mean, I know it's been raining, but you shouldn't have water coming in your basement this time of year. So that to me is a real concern, and not just to me, but to my fellow neighbors on each side of me. So I was kind of surprised that the drainage part wasn't on the appeal because it was kind of what my, one of my four most important things was when I wrote my letter appeal, and I just need to know, is that been lost in transaction, or is there, I mean, how do we communicate in here? How are we gonna solve an issue like this? With the drain? It's because, right, I had my yard surveyed years ago because I wanted to try to get some kind of proper draining because when water puddles up in my driveway, it doesn't seep into my yard. In fact, when it rains, and especially in a good downpour, which you know we have more and more of, my backyard looks like a swamp. Actual water does not drain in my yard. So, a little concern about losing, and well, let me start over. From my driveway to the backfield, I think it's a six inch difference of height. So, there's water constantly draining towards Bellevue Street from my yard, and that's not just my yard, but it's my neighbors next to me, and I can't confirm Jeremy and Kenny, which, what address was it? 27, it's Chuck's neighbors. I can't speak for them, but I do know them at my neighbor and myself. Our yardways are so much lower than the yard in the field that water is just constantly making its way towards our houses. And I know there's new development is, and I haven't, I don't know if I missed it, but is the parking lot going to be even higher than our yards, and is that water going to be able to work its way even more, even faster? And that's, a great example that I will tell you is like, yeah, actually, sorry, if you don't mind coming up so we can catch you on the microphone there. The intent is to regrade the parking in a fashion to drain East West. And so, all the water that is currently going towards Bellevue now, because we are higher, the intention is to create a swale to intercept the water that's coming off. So, you're absolutely correct that there will be more water, but it will be graded in a manner that we're actually gonna pick it up and control it towards the stormwater system that's on the plans now. The best real world example I can tell you is we had a project that people were nowhere near as nice as you folks have been tonight. And they were completely against us and said, my basements are flooded and this is awful, you're gonna create more problems. And we heard it all. After the project was done a year later, everybody was thanking us for doing the project because it solved their water problem. So, my guess is, and I can't be certain, but the way we got it graded, more than likely you're gonna have less water coming on to you because we're gonna intercept it and put it in the basements. So, that's, I don't know if that answers your question. Well, it does, but it brings up another point that, because as you know, we've had a really, really cold and rough winter and my driveway has actually risen 10 inches from the sidewalk. So, what kind of plan B do we have in case we get the frost heaves affecting the parking lot, not just the first year, but how about five years down the road or maybe 10 years down the road when it starts because of the frost heaves? Because it's a real concern. You know, it's an additional expense that I'm not sort of myself or my neighbors really wanna take on if we have to try to re-drain our property because of a two and a half acre parking lot. And that's, I mean, it's a real concern. Just I'm glad that I can be put on the record because I think there needs to be some literature put in there that can address these issues. And I'm really hoping that that's the fact that, you know, progress is good. And I think that this new drainage system in the back could be really beneficial for my neighbors and myself. And I'm certainly hoping that's the case, but I'm hoping that there's a plan B in case it doesn't. The next, can I just keep going on? This is more than not the appeal. Can I talk, discuss stuff off the appeal that we, that's been discussed here tonight? I'll go for sure. Sure. The existing tree cover in the backfield behind my house is an apple orchard. And I'm wondering what is gonna happen to, I think there's 50 to, you know, I don't even know, at one point there's hundreds of apple trees back there, but the last I knew there's at least 50 that I counted because I was back there trying to cut the vines because the vines have actually really have been very harmful to the canopy in the back. In fact, I have a silver maple that is about five feet in diameter. It's one of the biggest trees on Bellevue Street and brings up another concern. Because of that canopy, and the reason I went back there to cut the vines because the vines actually made it to my silver maple and it's actually kind of, it started damaging my tree. So I was trying to save my silver maple because it's a beautiful tree. It provides, you know, as much as I hate the tree because it sheds three times a year, it provides a lot of shade. So when we're in the back there on the 90 degree hot humid days, it brings some relief. But that tree is on the fence line and I don't know those roots run deep. So just not for my concern, but for my neighbor's concern as well, existing trees that are under properties, what's gonna happen to them if the root system gets damaged and that will trees die? Because that tree right there to call a tree service to come in and take down is gonna cost an exponential amount of money. And it's something that I don't wanna lose. I have two of them in my yard and I love them both. And I think that there should be some assurances put in in case something like that does happen. Again, it's probably one of the oldest trees in Winooski. And I hate to see because of progress that my property's gonna lose that luxury of having that tree there. And I don't know if there's, if you wanna just meet me to go through this and then you guys can ask questions or answer questions. I mean, how would you prefer to work this out? Again, I'd like to ask the chair. Yep, how long of a list are we talking here? This is just stuff I heard here tonight. I just rolled down. I have a few other issues that like, for example, the emergency lane, that's something new that has been put into this project that wasn't on the original draft. And I'm trying to find out how that was snuck in there, so to speak. And if it was a fire department requesting it, that's one thing. But if it has to be in there, there is another instance like that at the end of West Street in Winooski where there is a new development. It's probably about 10 years now. They put a secured fence so people couldn't drive through from West Street to that new development that's off Mallets Bay. And that would be a prime example of something that I would like to see. So we don't have traffic going in between two houses where there's kids in the neighborhood and those two locations. So the kids that live by that emergency lane are older high school kids, but I have an 11-year-old that likes to ride her bike and I don't want people trying to cut through because they want to miss the traffic and be non-compliant to the rules. But again, at the end of West Street, there's a secured fence with a lock that any emergency operator should have a key to in order for, if that's the case, because to be honest with you, that wasn't on the original, that I saw anyway. And we were told from somewhere, I don't know where, I can't say where I heard it, but we were also told that that lane was not going to be put in. And I'm seeing it here for the first time tonight. And there was another issue that has been starting to happen. And this is really no new problem to Winooski, but there's been a road infestation down on that property. I think it's 381. There, people were living there and squatting there for a number of months that all their garbage was thrown into the garage. And there's actually been signs of rats from the neighbors on Norma Street to my neighbors up that upper part of Bellevue Street. So I would like to request before any destruction of those properties get done, if there could be a exterminator to go through to make sure that our pets and our houses, even our health is not affected by a road problem that they scatter once the buildings get demoed. I think that will end my questions and I appreciate the board's time. I appreciate the developer's time. And if they have any answers or any questions for me, I'd be happy to listen or hear or answer. Thank you, Mike. Yeah, we brought up some good stuff. We'll talk about when we get into the little deliberative session, so thank you so much. Would anybody else like to speak tonight? Come on up, Emma. My name is Emma Lynch and I'm also resident at 25 Bellevue Street. My comment does not directly apply to the appeal, but I would like to use this opportunity of public comment to speak as long as the chair's okay with that. I'm okay with that as long as we keep it fairly brief. Of course, I'm mostly just concerned about the dwelling units in this building. My understanding is that it's about 68 studio and one-vendor apartments and then four or two-vendor apartments. And when you take a look at some of the other developments that have gone up on Main Street in only the past two years, you've got 355 Main Street, which is right on our corner of Bellevue, that is 30 studio and one-vendor apartments. And then down the road, you've got, I think it starts at 211 Main Street, which is another 27 one-vendor units. All the while, we're learning about this news of 300 Main Street being forest evicted and that's one of the only apartment complexes in Wynuski that has family-sized dwellings. And so truly, this is just a plea to you guys to consider what is really good for this community of Wynuski. That's 24 families that are gonna be most likely forced out of our town because there's not family-sized dwellings available to them, not even to mention affordable family-sized dwellings available to them. So I truly just wanted to take the opportunity to say that I want to make sure we're considering what Wynuski needs, what the citizen and the community needs, and maybe not just what is gonna make the most money out of this building. And that's really all I wanted to say. Okay, thank you, Emma. Would anybody else like to speak on the subject of the appeal that has been presented? For the folks that are attending virtually, if you do wanna say anything, if you can use the raise hand feature or use the chat to indicate that? At this point, if Carl's okay with it, I'd like to bring him back up just to find out if there's anything that was brought up that he would like to address before we move on. After hearing all the testimony from the neighbors, I don't wanna be a rule breaker, but I think we should strongly make a consideration with the board of maybe offering a little bit of flexibility on that one foot from the property line. Yeah, I like straight lines.  I like straight lines, but there's trees out there these people wanna preserve. We should give them some flexibility, let them just be in and around some of those big root structures. You're gonna have posts every eight feet or 16, whatever panels we choose. And we have an opportunity here to make those holes in locations where we're not gonna damage tree roots. And it's just you guys making that decision to allow, I think honestly, an appropriate figure might be just to lay down like six feet, like I'm six feet tall. And if you gave us one to six feet in that five feet of change, I think we could do a lot. I don't want it to zigzag too much, but I feel like if there's a place where there's one big tree and we're gonna 45 for 10 feet and then maybe six feet of it out of 45 or whatever and then go at that angle for 10 feet to preserve some trees for the neighbor's benefit. I don't see any harm in that. I mean, I specifically made it 18 feet to give that kind of flexibility. Even if the new tree, approves the fence 15 years later and then we'll just deal with the fence then.  So that's it. Give us some flexibility on maybe be able to move that fence instead of the one foot. I think that's, that'd be appropriate. And you think six feet. Do you want me to answer questions too? As far as drainage goes, I really do feel it's one of those instances where we're gonna make it better. You know, is there a guarantee?  It's essentially you're getting water that's rising up three feet and then it's flushing out and it's causing a plume of sediment in the city storm system and they know about it. We're gonna fix that problem and it's gonna help the neighbors. That's my opinion, but I'm fairly certain that's what's gonna happen. Is there anything else that I missed that you guys want me to say? Be happy to try to answer that. Other than the fence posts, do you have any concerns about the, how the trees on the neighbor's property would be affected by the construction? Yeah, I think that's why I'm kind of offering that. You know, you guys make it, give us some flexibility to move the fence. So if we're going down that row and we see a big mature tree, we can just avoid it by moving the fence, meandering it in and out, you know, basically from our, from the property line one foot in to maybe like six feet towards our project. Because we have room. I'm asking about the grading in general rather than the fence. No, the grading, the grading, it will just follow the grading. So after we get it graded, we'll put the fence in after. So I want to grade the property first because I don't want the fence to look, you know, kind of weird, but after our regrading is done for the parking lot, then we put in the fence. I think my question is, will your regrading possibly affect any of the trees on the neighbor's property? No, on the neighbor's property. No, we don't show any grading onto the neighbor's property. Now the grading stops short of our property line. It's pretty clear on the plans. Thank you. Yeah. Any other questions for Carl before we move on? Yeah, I have another question. I'm sorry, is that Mike? Yeah. Okay. Carl, appreciate that candor, what you just said. What, can you tell me from the end of the parking lot, the green space from our property lines, what's that amount of feet? Is it 10, 15, 6? I think they're from the end of the parking lot, the problem is about 18 feet. 18 feet, so, okay. I heard some stuff. That's all Mike's question was because I know in order to start something new, you've got to dig in and get everything down. I was more worried about that damaging the tree roots, that extent out past. I don't know how far silver maple tree roots or any tree on that Bellevue Street south end extend out, but that was a, I know you guys aren't going to drill a pulse down and hit it, but I was more worried about the digging up and getting the grading straightened out, all the infrastructure put in. And then just one follow up on the emergency corridor. Now that we're talking about the fencing, is the fencing going to follow that roadway too, is that going to be all open between, with a secure fence? Why will fencing show stopping on the plan just because obviously the emergency access wouldn't be used for the fence out through. The only thing I can offer is, on another ground we did the human use game toll gestures, there was a breakaway fence and I think we would be able to do something like that. It's something that just a chain and then the truck had to go through and it breaks throughout. Oh, so you did that properly. That's in the one street. Sorry, Carl, the board can't hear what you're saying. Oh. I was talking about, I was just talking about a breakaway fence, that's all, on the emergency access, so. Okay, so what I was thinking, are you guys willing to come down to keep this secure, or lock secure, because obviously there's going to be a lot of congestion and traffic going through there from the parking lot to cut through. And I was wondering if that's on the docket or if that's something we can discuss, just to make sure our properties are secure as much as possible from that huge parking lot, because I was young once and I remember what kids did in parking lots and I just want to make sure that our yards and our properties are secure from the bad elements out there. We would like to make the parking lot closer to the building, but the 119 spaces are what's required for our project. And the people that are basically an eight, they're a quarter of a mile away are going to come running in the winter towards the building to get in. So we don't think we're going to see too many pedestrians going towards Bellevue, but I don't know if we really need to put a plan and action to prevent people from cutting through Bellevue. I mean, I think people are going to park their vehicle and they're going to head towards the building because they're going to be people that live there or are visiting. So we didn't really think that that was going to be a concern, but we heard what you said if you have anything specific that you think we should do then we would like to enter there. Okay, I was speaking to the residents that are living there. So I'm speaking about straight traffic, people, transient people, you know, it's going to be a cut through from the school where it's dark at night and they can just cut through that parking lot if they get around or if they come in from George Street, jump the channeling fence just to escape some other situation they're in. Just trying to keep my family and my neighbors as safe as possible, that's all. Thank you for your time. Thank you for answering my questions. Agreed, and I believe that maybe an agreement can come out of this that possibly Joe and Carl would be open to modifying slightly these plans. If it becomes a problem, would Joe and Carl be willing to make it more difficult for random pedestrians to be able to access properties by building a fence along that access route? I don't know the answer, maybe they know the answer. But it's something that we can certainly discuss about for future. If it's a problem, then maybe it's something that can be addressed later, possibly. So if anybody else has anything to say about the appeal or the application, please speak now, otherwise we will move on. There does not appear to be anybody else in the room here interested in speaking and the folks online are not, have not indicated they want to say anything either. Okay, so we will discuss this in delivery session after we get through the next three agenda items. So thank you so much, everybody who has spoken about the appeal and about the application. We will move on to city updates and I will let Eric take this portion. Matt, before you close this hearing, it might be worthwhile to make sure that the exhibits are deemed admitted in the hearing so that they're part of the record from the exhibit list. I don't know if you have the exhibit list, Eric, I'm sure Eric does. Yeah, Eric, you said that earlier today, and... Thank you again for listening to us, Eric, thank you. I will, so yeah, Eric, is this something we do now or I was planning on just talking down... Why don't we take a brief pause to let folks clear the room here as they're clearing so that everybody can hear what's going on and then we can pick up again. Okay. Thanks, guys. I'll be right back. You're welcome to chat, but I'm not going to ask you to not do it right here in the hall. Okay, so the exhibits for tonight's meeting. I'll just read the exhibit, the letter and a quick synopsis of the exhibit so it is entered into the record formally. You should have all gotten a copy of the exhibit list via email from me today. So exhibit A is the zoning permit application with the civil plan set, the architectural plan set and the elevations and materials. Exhibit B is the project review committee agenda from 12, 13, 2021 where this application was heard. Exhibit C is the notice to the adjacent property owners for the project review committee meeting that was sent out on 11, 23, 2021. Exhibit D is the list of persons that received that notice of the project review committee meeting. Exhibit E is the certificate of conformity that was issued for the project, dated 12, 16, 2021. Exhibit F is the property posting for the intent to issue a zoning permit that was posted on 12, 16, 2021, including a date by which appeals needed to be submitted. Exhibit G is photos of the property posting. Exhibit H is the notice of appeal to the decision of the zoning administrator, dated 12, 30, 2021. Exhibit I is the notice of the public hearing that was posted on the properties for on 125, 2022 for tonight's hearing. Exhibit J are photos of that public hearing notice posted on the properties. Exhibit K is the public hearing notice for the development review board meeting on the appeal. Exhibit L is proof of publication of that hearing notice at the Burlington Free Press that was run on 129, 2022. Exhibit M is the memorandum to the adjacent property owners, dated 124, 2022, notifying them of the hearing tonight. Exhibit N is the list of persons that received that memo. Exhibit O will be tonight's meeting agenda. Exhibit P is the memorandum to the development review board dated 217, 2021, providing information on the actions that led to the issuance of the certificate of conformity and the appeal. Exhibit Q is the updated civil plan set that was submitted on 2, 9, 2022. Exhibit R will be the sign-in sheet for tonight's meeting for the folks that were here in attendance and also the folks that attended online. Adding to that, Exhibit S will be the photographs that were presented by the applicant tonight. And then my intent is Exhibit T to produce the letter that was referenced by Mr. Myers indicating the information that he had sent to me about an appeal as well. I believe what he had sent was he was, as I understood it, he was appealing the project as well, but it was not a formal submission of an appeal as is outlined in our regulations. So I did not include that. However, I will locate that and include that as an exhibit as Exhibit T for this hearing. And those are the exhibits that we have for this application.  I don't believe so. I think it's basically he presented the same testimony that he included in the written statement. He's on the record in either case. At the end of the day, it confirms his standing as an interested party in this matter. Excellent. Before we finish, I don't know if we're allowed to still do this because everyone left, but are there other outstanding issues with this project that we should know about? So the appeal was issued. So let me back up a step. The project went through the Project Review Committee. The certificate of conformity was issued, which outlines the conditions necessary to the conditions needed to be met in order for a zoning permit to be issued. Typically what happens is once the certificate of conformity is issued, the appeal period will start. The decision is made, the appeal period begins, which is what is appealable, the decision of the zoning administrator. And generally speaking, the applicant will wait until that appeal period ends before they start to address any of the conditions. So in this case, however, the applicant has begun addressing the conditions, one of which is referenced tonight with the screening and the fencing against the adjacent property owners. So they're still conditions they need to meet that they're willing to meet. Are those appealable? At this point, they are not because the appeal period has ended. So unless an appeal was submitted within that 15-day window after the property was posted on December 16th, there, this will be the only appeal that's heard on this matter by this board. What if those conditions aren't satisfactory? You have the lone decision on whether they be those. If the conditions are not met, then they will not be issued their permit. And there's no ambiguity about whether they are met or not, do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, based on the conditions, I don't believe there are. Okay. I can share my screen here with the, not trying to be difficult. No, no, that's fine. Understood, absolutely. So I'm gonna share my screen again and show you the certificate of conformity. I believe that was, I thought I included that with the agenda, but I may not have. I think it's in here, yeah. But so the certificate of conformity, it's pretty straightforward as to what is needed, generally speaking. So providing certification of the affordable housing to meet the standards, complete the fee and lieu agreement on street trees, update the architectural plans for any mechanical systems to make sure they're in compliance with section 608. Specific to what was discussed tonight, a comment from emergency services on the secondary access. So once those items are addressed by the applicant, that'll be reviewed by the emergency services to make sure those meet their standards. Just some delineations on the site plans and other specific items. The item seven here is what is basically under review tonight. Traffic impact study, they've prepared one and is under review right now by our staff. The comment about the rodents is actually included in here under other comments, item one, specifically the health officer requested that they mitigate and provide documentation of that for issuing demolition permits. That will be through a separate process. The demolition is not covered under this zoning, that is a separate application. So this comment, that's why it's under the other comments that are identified for consideration because the health officer basically stated at that meeting that they will not issue a demolition permit unless they see that documentation. So that's just reiterating their concerns. So generally that is what we include as the, those are the conditions that they would need to meet. These first 11 items that are listed here. Can you consider that number seven or six or both of them to have been met at this point based on those updated plans? I would need to see a little more information on the, I believe on the plantings, but I think based on what I've seen as far as the fencing, it has been met. The fence part is there. So that meets the, at least that component of the neighborhood matters. I haven't looked in a lot of detail at the planting schedule and where the rest of the actual neighborhood manners areas are on the properties to confirm that, but I think it does meet that standard. Now, number eight, you could find that unsatisfactory and they could appeal that similar to that Dunkin Donuts, right? That is correct, yes. That's correct. You can appeal by the applicant, not an interested party. That's correct. And similarly, the way that that happened with the Dunkin Donuts is there was a condition that was not met. Right. Which led to the denial. So that was a change of decision in essence. It was originally a approval with conditions that then was reversed to a denial when they were unable to meet the conditions. Right. So anyway, that's... Okay, sorry to go off on that tangent. No problem. Good question. But yes, item seven is specifically what is under appeal tonight. I guess that means we're done. I'm sorry, Matt, I'm... Oh, that's all right. We are done with the evidence. Correct. The hearing has been closed as best I can tell. We are ready for city updates. Yes, we are. And Eric can provide the city updates. I have no specific updates to provide tonight. Unless there's any questions that you all have, I'll be happy to answer those, but otherwise I have nothing specific. And item number seven is other business. The next potential meeting we will have is on March 17th for the DRV. Tomorrow is the deadline to make it onto that agenda. So far, I have not received anything. So if we don't get anything in tomorrow, then there will be no hearings for us for that meeting, and most likely we will not have a meeting. So anyway, but that will be our next regular the scheduled meeting. Awesome. So that is the last agenda item. The next is adjournment to adjourn. And I believe if everybody's open to it, it's eight o'clock now, deliberative session can happen tonight in a fairly timely fashion if everybody's okay with that. So I will take a motion to adjourn. Motion to adjourn. By Harlan. Any second? A second. A second. Elsie seconds, all in favor of adjourning. Aye. Aye. Aye, looks like hands raised. Unanimous. We are officially adjourned.


The ongoing COP27 summit in Cairo has thrown up a number of questions about the very future of humanity itself. As delegates tried to thrash out a final agreement, what is clear is the failure of the capitalist system to address the global climate crisis. A huge part of this responsibility falls on the United States, which is historically the world's largest emitter of planet warming gases. US President Joe Biden was at the Sherman Shake for the conference and kept touting what he called the leadership role played by the US. However, has that really been the case? What has been the role of the US in the climate crisis? Eugene Perrier of Breakthrough News explains. I think that when we look at the United States climate policy, we can say it's failing on two levels. I mean, it's failing just on the level of transforming the political economy of the United States in such a way to be able to address and hold the globe below one and a half degrees of warming, but also it's failing to really address its own fair share of what would be required in order to be able to actually meet the burden of climate change around the world based on the reality that the United States alone and really the developing the first world quote unquote, the global North is responsible for the vast majority of global emissions. So you look at what's happening in the United States, for instance, on one hand, and you can see that there needs to be a 50% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 here in the United States, excuse me, by 2030 here in the United States in order to be able to really do what the US needs to do in terms of its global share right now to hold the world below the crisis threshold of one and a half degrees of global warming. But based on their own admission, the climate legislation that's been passed by the Democrats will only get us 30 to 40% of that goal in 2030. So 30 to 40% reduction, you need to have a 50% reduction. And it has to happen in the next nine years, essentially, or eight years, essentially, and they're not on track, the government's own policies are not on track. And now in an era of divided divided government, it seems much less likely. And then on top of that, you have the broader issue of the sort of fair share, which is a huge issue in COP 27. And we can come back to that. But the United States is doing absolutely nothing as it concerns actually putting out climate finance at significant and a lot of the climate finance they're putting forward like with South Africa is actually loaned. So it's almost like debt trap diplomacy, the way they're approaching it. But on top of that, you can see the United States is essentially playing a huge ideological role and undermining the idea of fair shares. John Kerry, who is the climate envoy of the US said, well, everyone wants to get the whole $100 billion a year, which is what the rich countries are supposed to be giving developing countries in terms of money for adaptation and transformation. And obviously, it's not even close to that. I mean, what exactly it is is unclear. Could be as little as 18 billion, even though there's a lot more that allegedly pledge could be even lower than that, depending on how you look at the various different aspects of it. But that being said, John Kerry said, well, I used to think when we got a 90 on a test, I did pretty well. Well, they're not even doing 90%. But just the idea that, well, maybe we'll never make it to the threshold for what we should be paying. And that's actually even a low ball number that we may never even make it to the threshold of what we should be contributing based on our historic contribution to climate change. Then I think you can see that already the US is playing a huge role in trying to evade responsibility for what needs to happen. So both in terms of the contemporary reality in the United States, what does the US need to do with its own policies to hold the globe below one and a half degrees warming? It's not happening. They're at best 40% of where they need to be over the next eight years. And as it concerns really paying the cost for the share of global warming that the United States is responsible for, they are doing essentially almost nothing to make that possible and using their own ideological apparatuses and bully pulpits in order to in order to really attack the idea that the countries of the global north do bear a disproportionate responsibility and thus have to bear a very disproportionate responsibility of the cost. The US is already seeing the impact of climate change through extreme weather events. However, there have been many instances of political deadlock on the issue and the approach to climate change is wildly divergent in various regions. How do we understand the domestic implications and approaches to climate change? You know, I think the sort of domestic conversation here in the United States is still very limited as it concerns the issue of climate change. I mean, first and foremost, I would say the maybe biggest sort of element of the conversation around climate change in the US is actually adaptation, not mitigation. And I think that speaks to how blinkered the reality is amongst the political elites in the United States about the scale of the challenge.  And let's say about one third of Democrats are essentially in no way shape or form committed to actually addressing climate. The only thing that people really can agree on is that, you know, cities that are sinking like the Miami's of the world, the New York City's of the world, that someone should do something to try to address them or try to save them. And that, you know, that kind of those kind of issues are important to address loss and damage issues, which of course, they don't want to address in the developing world. But that being said, you know, that's really the crux of the national conversation. Now, in the regional level, there's more things happening. And you have a different patchwork of conversations happening around the country, as it concerns climate change in states like New York, where I am states like California, you know, there's no doubt that it's happening. And there's a very robust conversation, for instance, here in New York state right now, a huge push is happening. And in fact, it looks like it may in fact have the votes in the state legislature to drastically improve publicly owned power utilities that are operating on 100% clean energy and offering it for very low prices. So you can see that there's a sort of an advanced edge of the conversation. But then you have places like, you know, the deep south of the United States, the Great Plains, other areas that are dominated by the far right, where there's just no discussion about anything at most about adaptation, but almost every elected official is a climate denier at the local state and federal level. So we have this very deeply fractured conversation, which is leaving us with a lot of half measures. For instance, the US is spending billions of dollars to incentivize the production of electric cars, but they are not spending the enough money to actually build out the infrastructure for electric cars to really operate on a wide scale all across the country. So the only places where they have the infrastructure are a handful of places where private industry does things and then a handful of states that are willing to take action, California, New York, and the District of Columbia and the like, that are willing to take action on climate change. So it's a very fractured conversation. There's a lot of half measures emerging from the political process. But at the end of the day, we can see that the sum total of it all means that the actual goals that need to be met by certain time periods 2030 and 2050, that's a 50% reduction in emissions by 2030, and you know, quote unquote net zero by 2050 are, I mean, there's almost no chance that they're going to be enacted. And a lot of that is because even the majority of people in the country would probably like to see more happen. The anti-democratic political system makes it impossible to really assemble the correct majorities. The US role in climate change is inseparable from its role as an imperialist power. A report from 2020 noted that the Pentagon is the world's largest institutional user of petroleum, and its greenhouse gas emissions are more than even industrialized countries such as Portugal and Sweden. How do we see the US contribution to climate change in light of these facts? You know, I think that it's critical to understand that the United States approach to climate change from my point of view has really been completely deluded as it concerns the development realities of the world. I mean, as the president of Nigeria pointed out specifically at COP 27, Africa, for instance, has some of the lowest emissions. It's the closest to net zero emissions and has the largest number of countries of any continent that have actually met the social development goals, the UN SDG for climate, but yet and still Africa is being pushed aggressively to actually take the lead in reducing emissions, which in many ways means in, you know, essentially baking poverty into the reality of these countries. I mean, the reality is most of the poor countries are really in what you could call a climate deficit, because not only has their contribution over time been so low, basically nothing, but even their current contemporary emissions are so low, they could grow their emissions significantly, significantly, really even over the next 50 or 60 years, and still actually not be playing a role in holding the world back from actually meeting the goal of one and a half degrees Celsius warming or no more than that. And so you can see that what the United States is doing. And we're talking about DRC, for instance, where they are trying to sell oil blocks in order to generate revenue for the country. And when the Secretary of State Blinken was there, when John Kerry also spoke about this issue, they were imploring Congo to do nothing, the Congolese government, whatever criticisms one may make, we're saying, well, what about all the people living in poverty in our country? What are you supposed to do about that? The US presents no money, no agenda, no nothing to help the people of Congo. You can look at the same issue in South Africa, the so-called majorly touted deal of COP 27. The reality is it could throw 110,000 miners, coal miners out of work with no plan at all whatsoever to mitigate these terrible impacts on mining communities there in South Africa. And on top of that, this eight and a half billion dollar package, which is primarily in loan, so will make South Africa even more deeply in debt, which is a multi-layered issue there too, because most of South Africa's existing debt is only in RAND, their own currency. This would probably be in dollars or in euros. So it's significantly unfavorable in terms of what it does to the debt load of South Africa, in addition to throwing 110,000 people out of work with no plan for how they're actually going to sustain themselves. But it also sends all the money to private corporations and guts the public sector, which of course will make it harder for South Africa to do its own development tasks and address issues like the 50% unemployment in their country. So you've got the United States that is essentially refusing to recognize its own fair share, refusing to do its own fair share, that in the context of the war on Russia has openly and willingly made it much easier for the fossil fuel industry to grow, also still continuing to insist that these developing nations that have almost no emissions, both historically and contemporarily, are not allowed to pursue their own development past, because that will be deemed to be against the issue of sustainability. So they're looking to balance the crisis on the backs of those who are not only the least responsible, not both historically and contemporarily, but those who have the least means and least ability to actually address the issues.


Nandini Nigeria niki. Politi meda mtato mtato hwaisu niyati nakaiajna wajimutia. Niti wajimutia. Niki wajimutia, wajimutia, kwa kwa wajimutia nakaiajna. Kwa wajimutia wajimutia. Niki wajimutia, wajimutia, kwa wajimutia. Niki wajimutia. Kwa wajimutia. I can see that you are frustrated with the current state of our country and it's understandable to feel angry and powerless when we see problems around us that seem beyond our control. But I want to remind you that there are things you can do in the office of the citizen to make a powerful difference even if they may seem small. Firstly, remember that you have direct control over your own actions and behaviour. You can choose to be kind, compassionate and respectful towards others even if you disagree with them. You can also choose to stand up against discrimination, prejudice and injustice whenever you encounter them in your own life. Secondly, you can get involved in your local community and work towards positive change at a grassroots level. Now imagine 50 million citizens who are just like you doing the same thing and working on change within their local communities. No political party can change, cause that kind of change. Now this could involve volunteering for local charities or advocacy groups joining enabled association or attending town hall meetings to voice your concerns. Thirdly, you can make a difference through the choices you make as a consumer by choosing to support companies and products that align with your values. You can send a message to businesses that they need to prioritise ethical and sustainable practices. Practices that help create a better country for everyone. Finally, I want to encourage you to stay informed and engaged with the issues that matter to you. By staying up to date on current events and seeking out diverse perspectives, you can better understand the complexities of the challenges facing our country and the world. And by sharing your knowledge and insights with others, you can inspire positive change in your own community as a powerful individual in the office of the citizen. You have two options. You can choose to focus on the negative aspects of our current situation, or you can choose to look for opportunities to create positive change and make a difference in your immediate environment. I know that it can be overwhelming to think about all the problems facing our country today. However, I believe that by recognising the power we have as holders of the office of the citizen, focusing on the things we can control and working towards positive change in our own lives, we can create a brighter future for ourselves and for future generations. I am coming from a direction where I can tell you that over my decades of existence as a Nigerian, there has been constant focus on how powerless we are to make things change. And we are always looking to the powers above us. And there is this different perspective where we are not focusing on what we can't do and the negative, but what we can do at the level of the individual. When you said the issue amongst each other, we don't really have issues, but it's those from above. I would say in my mind, that's exactly what we need for the individual to know that with him lies the power.  I could be. Please, I could have AUSA blood, I don't know it. It's true, it's possible. So if we relate with each other based on the human level, and I'm looking for how can I do things that will benefit three of us, I'm thinking about how I can strengthen the values that I hold to be very strong, that I hold to be very important. It's you viewing what I'm doing, cascade upwards, and before we know it, we have a great effect in the nation. So I'm going to ask, I'm going to start with you Elijah, in what ways have you worked on the positive side of what could be in the country? Your question is very thoughtful. My personal capacity right from my university is up to now. I always have a sense of service and leadership, an exemplary living, a model, an injury. So I've worked with several organizations in time pass to foster unity, maybe through programs that encourage young people to understand the essence of leadership and community development within the environment. Up to this moment, I see, like to interact with other young persons and make them to understand how they can be better. Because when you are better as an individual, the country is going to be better. It's going to be a submission of every other thing. So we are crying today about issues facing us as Nigerians. We have poverty, these are the major issues. Poverty and maybe not lack of enough opportunities for young people and the rest. But in our own little corner, we should try and encourage other young people, young people to young people, mental people you can, skill transfer, skills transfer, teach people you can, train people and then those people that have the miss too. You don't have to be in government to support young people or women or anybody. If you have the miss too, you can maybe work with relevant government agency just to push this through. Maybe by creating awareness, funding opportunity for women and youth for their businesses and other things. And above all, drive national consciousness. The tribalism you see is a thief of our democratic processes. We are facing insecurity and poverty. These two conditions have no tribe, have no religion.  Thereby collaging our sense of reasoning that we cannot even solve our problem. We don't even know where to start so many problems. So above all, if those people that are seeking political office, if they didn't give you an opportunity to run for an office, that thing you said you want to do, try and do it young personal capacities, it's achievable. It's achievable. If you meet relevant government agencies, you do the right thing. I'm sure if you try to tell them this and this and this, there is no way they will not want to buy into you and give you some set of, it might not be easy, but it's possible for you to work with the government when necessary to encourage young people and women in a large scale. I'm using young people and women because these are the demographics that are more affected by our problems in Nigeria. Insecurities affecting a lot of young people and women.  Even if you don't have the capacity to reach out to government institution for partnership at an individual level, you can help your neighbor, inspire people within your community to be a positive Nigerian, a positive change. That's what I think. Thank you very much. It's from the citizens that we end up getting the leaders. So a lot of times you hear that we get the leaders we deserve because they are us. Some of us, when we get there, we do the same things because we've not built that office where what you do in a small way and what you're going to do in a big way. So what's your take on this? Okay. Very interesting issue. I feel when I think of this since I remember Chinua Achebe, God bless his soul. He used to say that. It seems you're an Adeans reader of Chinua Achebe's work. I love him. He used to say then that the problem with Nigeria is simply a square leader of leadership. In fact, that was the first sentence in his book. But you are right. The citizen is important.  Martin Luther King had no office till he died. Mahad Magandi had no office till he died. He didn't hold any office. It's strange, but he never held any office. But he was very influential in his affairs of his country. So there's a place for the citizen and influence he can bring about to be on this country. What that reason was just, she was just a nun. In fact, she lived most of her life in half seclusion. But each time she went into society, she impacted society. We can impact society. When I was young, younger, okay, you think I'm still younger. When I was younger, in my professional life, we were part of a loose association of groups. My principal then was the head of the, was the Director of Legal Service of Seattle. And I remember, when I was doing some of those cases in Fundamental Human Rights, I felt maybe this is why I came to read law, not mainly because of the money. I took one particular job in doing cases in which you could identify some wrong had been done and you needed to cure it and all that. So it gave me some particular sense of joy. Then during the military era, you remember there were so many citizen groups which tried, in fact this democracy we have now, owes much to many of those groups. If you remember, some of our military rulers actually wanted to be permanent dictators and it was switching over from military to Abadda. In fact we were lucky with Abacha. He was so determined that he set up five parties and they all said it was him they were going to give me, political manipulation. They all said it was him and only him. Yes, it was him and only him that could become. We were just lucky that the man just died. If he had not died perhaps right now we would be leaving under dictatorship but all those groups gave him and others before him IBB also it was rumored that IBB that was his intention as late as 1990 that it was his intention to become a permanent ruler and citizens pushed him to the war gathering of citizens. The problem I am seeing now is and I ask often where the gathering of citizens like that that group that can be called civil society is vanishing. You see if you say who last come from followers but recently I read an article and you see the number of governors who become senators, who become governors, who become... You can now truthfully say that leadership is coming from followership again. No, it seems that now in Nigeria leadership is recycling itself. But where are the citizens? That's the problem. Where are we? Where is the citizen? That's why Olu's talk is very important. We need to awaken the office of the citizen where does one or in the collective you find the kokoshares as an individual they are not strong but they are strong as a collective we need to awaken the office of the citizen joining hand to hand. Alright, thank you very much. Thank you for your input. Steven Agiodi is next after the break.