Patrick. We've got an issue. What's the issue? I told you it was episode 180. It's not. It's 179. 179? Can you do another intro for me? Are you gonna slice in a completely different environment? I'm absolutely. So it's 179. We were one up ahead. Yeah. Can you just wing it? Can we? Yeah. Hi. I'm Patrick. Welcome to the 179th episode of the service session. So welcome back to a brand new episode of the service design show. This is going to be a very special edition because we're actually doing her life in person conversation. I think second or third time in the history of the show and I'm here at the heart of service design in the U.S. I'm in the harmonic design studio in Atlanta. Thanks for inviting me, Patrick. That's great to have here.  You've been on the show before. Do you recall which one, which episode it was? It was during the pandemic, so it's all blur. I would say, what was I? Maybe midway through your 107 or 80? It could be. Yeah, it could be. And since then, we joined forces. You've been a partner of the show. People might know you from the show. They also might know you from the book, which was also celebrating an anniversary. Five years. Yeah. May first. Yeah. Orchestrating experiences. We'll get into that a bit later. So, Patrick, I'm really excited for this. I already told you we got a bunch of questions also from your team that might be a bit different than you'd expect. So, let's jump into this and see where we end up. First question is about the future of our profession, about the future of service design. If you think about where it's heading, what's the thing that excites you most? I'm excited about the impact that service designers can have. In the U.S., the roots, I think, are still sinking into the soil in a lot of organizations. And for ones that I've seen make the investment, building internal teams, hiring partners to work with them or help them build those teams, I think the future is bright for the profession to grow here. But I also, probably you have questions about this later, but I think it's also going to require to continue to really push and evolve what service design is and what it means. It has to be responsive to the needs of organizations in the world around us. And so, I'm really excited about the future, but it's going to require continuous innovation of what we do. And redefining the boundaries of it, I think it's going to continue to be very important. And when you think about the boundaries of our profession right now, what's the thing that we would need to redefine? In talking to different teams and leaders, talking to the few schools that teach it, looking at curricula, I still think that a lot of practitioners are under indexing on operations and culture. There's a lot of organizational design, business design that I think is really critical. I think over the last few years, the more and more people are understanding the intersection of systems thinking and more systemic service design. I think that is a sign that our profession is looking at our complex world and the organizations that you're trying to work with and responding to that. There's been a lot of people that have been voices for that for a long time. I'm seeing more of that starting to bubble up. I'm seeing it more being taught. But I think that's incredibly important. I think obviously, within a lot of organizations, the push to digital transformation sucks a lot of oxygen out of a lot of opportunities and where it could be going. And I think we have to continue to kind of cut against that grain because I think organizations need more than digital services. Are you optimistic about the future of service design, maybe especially in the US? It's hard to say now, obviously. Yeah, I mean, in the US, like other parts of the world, we're seeing a recession. I believe that service design is a form of strategic design. In recessions, companies start to pull back their horizon lines a little bit, start to look on how can we perform in this recession, pull back on investments, innovation. And obviously, service design plays across that whole gamut from new things and making existing services better. So if you look at it from this point of view, we've been seeing playoffs in the US in service design. But that's been true of lots of more strategic positions. It's hitting engineering and technology. I think it's a blip in terms of the investment that companies will make in this. But it does mean that service designers have to, whether you're internal or external, you've got to be able to speak to the business impact of the work. And that's a good thing. Like in the long term, it's going to benefit the entire community. Yeah, I mean, back in 2008 when we had the bigger recession here, based off of the crisis around home loans, that was a much bigger challenge to the design profession. I remember I was leading a team of about 30-something people. And I remember standing in front of them and saying, all right, so this is where we've got to get innovative. We have to figure out new methods. We've got to be able to talk more about the value of what we're doing as designers. And during that time period, that's when a lot of the lean approaches to different design professions mature during that time period because you had to be able to show you could work with less. So I think every challenge is an opportunity. I think it's a good time for reflection. And I'm seeing amongst people that I think are leaders in our space, seeing them make some better and better more compelling arguments for the value of what we all do. So yeah, so I'm overly optimistic about it. But yeah, we have to stay on our toes and keep pushing. And educating in a way that's not just academic. We need to do it in a here is the value of making this investment and trend. And I think I've always believed in doing small things build to the bigger things. So smaller ways to make an impact to build confidence of leaders to invest more. I'm here in Atlanta. This is my, I think, second or third visit, which was the other ones were quite long ago. And I learned already in the days that I'm here, two very important things. Apparently, everybody has their own mac and cheese recipe. And everybody loves the beach. And your favorite beach is Rehoboth Beach. So my next question is related to this. Let's imagine that you got the opportunity to create a service design cocktail inspired by Rehoboth Beach. What kind of cocktail would it be and what emotions or experience would you want the cocktail to invoke in its consumers? So tell us first a bit more about the beach and why you enjoy it so much. So a lot of people are like, we're with beaches in Delaware. So the first response to people in the U.S. is why Delaware? And the answer is pretty simple. Best friend of mine, each other since we're five years old, has a place there. We visited him for years. Their cocktails there are very, the most popular things they're currently are like vodka with a fresh squeezed fruit in it, which is not my thing. So I'm more of a bourbon person. So I would be cutting against the grain by making bourbon drinks in Rehoboth, but I'm a big fan of old-fashioned. So I would probably try to start to build more of an appreciation for a mix for old-fashioned, but it probably would have to incorporate some sort of orange or lemon kind of taste. Maybe the bitters would be lemon bitters or orange bitters, for example. So what would that cocktail message would be? It would message that the goal is that I retire there at some point. So it would message I'm here, I'm old, and welcome me to the party. Yeah, we need to make that happen. Add it to your bucket list, a service design cocktail. So Patrick, another reason why we're here is that Harmonic also recently celebrated its 50-year anniversary. I'm sure a lot has happened in those five years and I'm going to probably pose a pretty challenging question. If you have to think back on your proudest moment in those last five years, is there anything that pops to mind? It's probably, you know, we're five years old, so if you track back, we were under two years old when the pandemic happened. So I would say proudest moment is how we, this team here, just very nimbly adapted to it. So I'm sure a lot of people have similar stories of how you just had to overhaul everything that we're doing, how we're approaching working with clients, and as a young company and still building our client base and our reputation to be able to do that and then grow during it. What was the secret? When we formed, a big believer, we're a small company, but even as we've grown, my goal has always been that people, that we have a very open discussions and talk about what we're doing, where we're going, how we're working together. So I think that, that and how we work together is just so, such a foundation to be able to then communicate to one another. We've always had a, you know, one of my values has always been to bringing the companies taking care of one another. So we all leaned on one another. And then when we were starting the company, you know, we opened up for people to take a piece of building the operations of this company beyond beyond work of the clients and our practice. And so everybody just kept taking a piece and figuring out like how do we, how do we adapt and how we're working together and to give each other feedback about it. Um, we also just slowed down some things and said, it was interesting. We grew, but we were slowing down those goals. It was very interesting. Um, because I just wanted people not to feel overloaded. I think we all, there was this initial buzz when the pandemic first happened, the first three or four months was very obviously disconcerting and destabilizing for everybody. But there was this weird energy of like, yes, we can, you know, do this. And then it's kind of like you get the take a deep breath and go, oh, we're still in this. Right. And so I think the other thing is just encouraging people to take time, take care of themselves, hold back on a few of our goals. Things like we're doing this week here in Atlanta of our practice week were goals that we had back then. And we just, you know, iced it for a while. And when we felt ready and have the energy that we would do it. Um, and so, um, yeah, I think it's, I think it's that, um, you know, the team just did an amazing, amazing job and, uh, and leaned on one another. What surprised you the most, because I can imagine that going through a pandemic, seeing client work change, um, doubting if client work will still be there. It took us two years to get through the pandemic sort of fully. If you now look back on that, what's the biggest surprise coming out of it?  I think, I think we all have to remember what it, what, well, there's different perspectives on work life. I think we should all kind of put things in perspective of what a, what a crazy experience to go through together as humans. And that a lot of, and a lot of people are doing, doing their best, right? And we all bring different ideas and values. So, you know, I'm, well, I'm, like I was saying before, I'm optimistic of service design. I was surprised by companies, you know, just a lot of our clients were under, like us or in some sort of form of trauma from this experience we're going through. And while there were some tough moments along the way, overall, I felt that people were kind to one another and trying to do their best work together. And I don't know, maybe that's not a surprising thing. It's probably the depth of it. I don't know. I just felt, you know, I was very appreciative of why I'm always, of course, like we're a business, we get paid for what we do, you know, it's very valuable for us to like, we try to show up and being our best and when our clients were as well when we're all struggling and trying to figure out how do we even work together, much less accomplish what we're trying to do. I'm just appreciative of it. So, I don't know if I swerved on your question, but that's what came to me. Let's hope that that's going to continue. We don't lose that appreciation and that respect for each other. Now, once everybody starts adding things to their to-do lists. Yeah, I mean, we know that what service designers do is, you know, there's a lot of craft to it, but obviously, facilitation and bringing people together and creating alignment. And so much of it is that we show up with energy. We ask the same from others. And so, yeah, I think we obviously all have to model that in our profession. But it, you know, yeah, it was, it's just a, like I said, I agree. I hope that can, that continues. I hope people don't forget how everyone was trying to bend and be flexible and try to get stuff done. And it doesn't return to, you know, its rigidity that you see in some organizations. Yeah, I think it was some good lessons learned in that. And like I said about the recession, like every time something happens like this, it just, you know, it accelerates practice development. Right? It is. Yeah, never waste a good crisis in that sense. Yeah. Right. Let's talk about the book for a second.  I don't know how best. We've had your co-author on the show as well. The book is there behind us. I don't know if I have a signed copy. I do have a copy somewhere. The book is titled Orchestrating Experiences. Have you seen organizations generally be able to orchestrate their experience? There's a lot of work to do. Well, you know, in the book, that's a, intentionally has two meanings, right? So, you know, if you look at the experiences that are provided to customers or other people, there's the ability to create these experiences over time and especially in companies that operate in more than one channel, which most do, how that comes together and, you know, ideally customers move fluidly through reaching their goals and the system of touch points responds to them. There's a lot of work to do there. I think there's a goal in a lot of organizations, you know, there's more journey work happening. There's more journey management work. I think there's still the maturity level, I think, of how you get to the goals of journey management versus how you do it. There's a lot more work to do, but that, you know, in, I don't know, I think I did my first journey map like 15 years ago. So, like, if you look at the trajectory of that over time, maybe longer, the trajectory is good. I think more people are trying to determine that. I think one of the barriers to it is less technological or methods, the intent. I think it's the other thing we talked about in the book, which is how you work together. I think, you know, an organization being able to, you know, work together towards that end to have a vision and believing that experiences are really material to how they create value, that it's not something that you just kind of chip away at in an agile team over here and the communication team over here, that you have to have, you have to work together. And there have to be people helping to see the forest while the trees are being created. I think that's where there's a lot of struggle. And I think that's true of any, you know, companies have tried to move to agility. It's the same challenges. It's humans, right? And in the end, like, getting people to work towards this bigger goal and how you balance having that clarity of what you're trying to create and orchestrate versus the two-week cycles of getting stuff done, that messy middle between strategy and implementation is still ripe for doing better work. So I think it's more and more of a stated goal that organizations have the same way that, like, 20 years ago would be customer centered. And now you hear about journeys, right? So, but I think there's, it's a challenge because if you look at customer centricity, you know, walking that talk has been a struggle. And so journeys to me are an even greater challenge, right? But I'm optimistic about the seeing it more and more in organizations making that investment. But there's, everyone's still trying to figure out how to do it well. Yeah. I think literature like this definitely contributed to growing demand, growing awareness. And then the execution part is still something people are trying to figure out, even though it's already written down, but the fact that people are asking for it, trying to learn about this stuff, that's already a big win. Although we always want things to move faster, but Yes. Yeah. I tend to take a longer view. But yeah, there's, you know, and I'll tell people, you know, when we're working with a company and they're, everyone wants, you know, or many people want like that best practice shortcut. And it's like, and I'll literally say it, even though I wrote a book, this is like, you're not going to find the answer in a book, you're going to find signals, clues, pieces, but your organization, while you can see patterns across them, you're your own weird little universe. And it comes down to people working with people. And so that's what, you know, and so I would say that's, you know, in the book, the last chapter talks about that a lot, which is just this is little step by little step, making change, building coalitions of the willing. It can't be, you know, some of it can be education, but a lot of it is just trial and error, you know. When you get the opportunity to speak to people who have read the book, what's the biggest misconception they have after hearing the story? No, one doesn't come to mind, to be honest. I think overall, I mean, I've been, you know, there was a, when Chris and I were writing it, it was always this struggle of there are, there's not one way to do this, right? But you have to make it tangible. And so we were trying to balance this, you know, little philosophy, a little bit of the mindset you need to have, the concepts, and then, yeah, this tool, that tool, this change over time. I think, you know, the workshop examples on it, I think one of the, it shows a way to do it. And I'm happy there wasn't a misconception that that is the way to do it, at least when I talk to people, that they've tried it, they've adapted it. But no one said, hey, I did it exactly like you wrote it down. And, you know, it was trying to make it just really concrete of, and it was a little bit of how for each of those things, like focus on your outcomes, you know, so that's, that's been, that's been good. You know, it's interesting, we also, at the time, made a conscious decision not to say, you know, service design on the paper. And the reason for that was we were, we were trying to pull from lots of different things in it, obviously. And so it's interesting that as many people will see it as a service design book as not, and that was, that was intentional, because, because, you know, in the US, especially, still trying to have people understand what it is, and there's always a, do you lead with that or not? And in the end, we just decided like, we just want people to do good work, help them, if this helps you do good work, call it whatever you want. And so that was an intentional decision. And so that's been, that's been nice as well. If you know, five years later had to add a single chapter to the book, what will be? Yeah, I wrote a blog about this a couple years ago. I know more now too. The, in the book, there's a chapter on journeys that I think would blown out moments even more. But that's become a big part of our methodology here. But there were things that when Chris and I were working at Adaptive Path together and with others, they are like, James Hageman and others, like, the things that we were working on in our practice, when we were writing the book, we were just where Chris and I were in our thinking. So I think that would be it. And then, you know, I would say when we turned our outline in, what Lou Rosenfeld, the publisher, told us was this is three books. So one way to think about it is there's 11 chapters, like nine chapters or one book. Chapter 10 is a book that I think Chris really wanted to write, just getting deeper into prototyping and implementation. And then the last chapter was kind of like what a lot of stuff I wanted to write about, which is I think a lot of what we do at a harmonic is more about the intersection with organizational design and like how do you change, how do you get these things into organizations? How do you evolve and using these approaches? So yeah, so it might be a missing book. But yeah, those are things that come to mind. But yeah, I think the use of moments as part of the architecture of organizations, we've been doing a lot of experimentation. And but again, you know what you know when you write it. I mean, that book came out five years ago, but you really have to lock what we were going to write about even a year and a half before that. So, you know, it's interesting. It's like a, it's kind of a, for me, it feels like a good historical document of like my thinking in 2016. And yeah, I've definitely learned so much from since then and watching my team just like, do some amazing work. That's why we're all waiting for a revised version, like a new and updated. Lou, if you're watching, he definitely is. I know he is.  Please help us to take us back to a moment where there was a particular hot situation with a client where you definitely needed Game Night to get back on your, in your rhythm. I mean, definitely there were moments during the pandemic where, like I was mentioning before, like in general, everyone's trying to show up as they can. But we definitely, you know, I think this will probably resonate with people. You, you're working on something and we work in a very collaborative way with our clients. And there is definitely on one initiative, a kind of clashing of methodology. So I think they're more specific. Yeah, there was, you know, within the branding and marketing world, I think there was, at this client, I think there was a kind of approach of using some frameworks that they were comfortable with. But they were hiring us to do things differently intentionally. And I think as the project was very high profile project in the organization, it's a very large company, CMO level visibility. So I think it's one of those times where our team is trying, we work very, we're very flexible. But it was getting to the point where it's like, no, this is breaking, right? Like the logic of the work was starting to just fall apart. So we, you know, it was very stressful. And this was during the pandemic. So like already just life stressful. And so emotions were very high amongst everybody as a result. So yeah, definitely had to like collect my thoughts on the whole team and definitely work, we've worked through it. And, but it's, I think those are the things where how you handle those moments. I talked to my teams a lot about that of, you know, best laid plans, right? And a lot of the work we do fortunately is important to these companies. It's often has this dual thing that I think a lot of service designers face of you're trying to, you're being hired to introduce new things. But then as you go through it, there's a pull within organizations to the norm, right? And how you navigate that together either sometimes it's the people you're working with in the client and they're having to work with that around them. Sometimes it's within the team. But yeah, just being able to work through that. And you know, in a lot of, I think like a lot of designers who come from a human-centered background still practice that way. We're highly empathetic. I'm an introvert. So these things weigh on me. You take it personal. Not personal, but it takes a lot of energy. Sometimes I take it personal. I just, yeah, I have a, I believe service design like with what we're doing and we're trying to create these things that ultimately we're trying for all the people involved to win. So it's like, am I the customer? Am I employee delivering the service? Am I impacted by it three degrees away? Can we figure out ways to balance that? So that's how it feels to do a project too. So when I go through those, I'm like, I just want us all to have a good experience and listen and help one of those needs. But these, yeah, there's moments where it's just really hard to navigate it. And that's when I need to recharge because that energy, I don't get energy from that. I'm going to be exhausted after we finish talking. So it's that kind of thing.  So you have to show up and work through that and it takes that energy and then you got to take care of yourself. Any specific lessons that you took away from that experience? I would say that why I say we're very flexible, you know, to bring forward things as soon as possible, right? I think it's not uncommon in client relationships where you're trying to be responsive. And then we'll figure that out, you know, but a lot of this work and a lot of the model we've been doing here, it's, you know, you're really building a team together. So you have to be able to create and we really have worked on as a practice, like how do you create that ability to like the merits of who you work for? Can you create the right climate on the project or the initiative within the team to be able to have those conversations and tackle things before the trajectory gets too far off? And sometimes it's the reverse. Like we're, we think we're doing what's best and they're not feeling comfortable, but they may be going, well, we'll trust them. They should bring it forward. So it's a two-way, it's a two-way street. We're all trying to do our best. And I think that's how we try to, we try to signal is like, let's just good communication, you know, and don't try to get it out and not have those conversations when you need to have them. So this is a nice leeway into my follow-up question. In your early years, you ran a high skating rink. Skating rink? No, no, a soccer shop. I need to, I need to double check my info here, but I knew I didn't rank. Oh, there we go. When I was a little kid, when you were a little kid, I was a roller skating rink. I was a little entrepreneur when I was a little kid. Yeah. So skating rink, soccer shop, I knew that as well. Now the question here is, how did that influence your leadership style today? All those things, I mean, I have a partner, James, here. I wrote a book with Chris. I'm more, I lean towards collaboration. And when I think about those things, like the soccer shop with my dad, those things that I did as a kid, I was sometimes the person who was the spark for it or, but I was also, if someone had an idea, I'd be like, oh, let's do that. I think that's, and that's, the way I try to lead is, I definitely have responsibilities in a role as a owner of the company or if I'm leading something with a client, but I always think of it as we're doing this together. I try to show up that way, create the space for all of us to think through how to do this together. And that's what I've tried with clients as well. I believe that leaders should be, I think that everyone on the team, no matter if you're like right out of school, or you've been doing it for 20 years, we all know something. We all have a perspective that is unique and valuable. And that's how I try to show up, and I encourage my teams to do that. I think when, I think when, I think poor leadership is when it develops into leaders and followers, like almost a term leader sometimes as a mucker, right? Because that says, I've worked with some companies where it's almost like a paternal relationship of leaders and employees. And I always say, leaders are employees. So it's this little dance of like, being supportive of one other, if it's not your idea, just because people look at you as the leader, like BS and to it, help one another. So I think it's that, I think as a kid, I always was captive of my soccer team, but I was surprised they wanted to make me, and our coach was surprised. He's like, are you sure? Because I am more introverted and quieter, but I am about the team. So I think those are things I learned at a very young age. It's about the team. I'm guessing an interesting balance towards moving forward together as a team versus I'm assuming that you also have a vision where things are heading. The company celebrated its fifth year anniversary. When you go for a walk or have a game night, you're probably thinking about, okay, what's next? What's going to happen in the next five years? I want to know about that. And if Dublin also plays a role in that story. All my friends in Dublin, hey, Tim. I don't know, business-wise, any excuse I ever, so yes, I have a love of Dublin. So any excuse to get over there. But I definitely have thoughts in terms of where I think things are happening. I try to share that with the team. But it's also listening to them. So if we're not connected to what we're doing, if every practitioner here, then you lose some of the advantage of being a small external party, right? And so how are the answer of what's going to happen over the next five years will be dependent on the people who aren't in this room and helping to take their passions and see can we turn that into something that are we addressing a need that's there? Are we helping people see a need that they have that we can help address, but connecting our passions to what organizations need? I think what I see most clearly is that, and I was just talking to an owner of another service design firm the other day is just how, as an external party to working with organizations of different kinds, how we work with companies will continue to need to evolve. And that's what I see most clearly. We've leaned into that. I still consider the way we've been practicing as experimental. We've been experimenting with engagement approaches that we've learned so much about what to do, what will work and not work. And then you tried another organization, and I think what we're still trying to find are the partners that we really look for in organizations really want to do it together. And the ones that have really leaned into that model have shared that that has been a more enjoyable way to work. And they've seen the outcomes. It's definitely enjoyable for us. And so I think over the next five years, like what I hope I would see is that we are able to help continue to push on how we work with organizations and lean into the things I was talking about earlier, which is how organizations can be more tuned oriented to service. And that word service and service design, I think is the should be a real focus for in our profession. There's obviously mental models about what design means within companies, right? And that's always shifting and changing. But I think that a service economy, service organizations that provide services, that's the playing ground, I think. And that's the business relevance, right? Because then design becomes a way that people see you get to those outcomes. But what outcomes are we talking about, right? And what that word service means and can organizations and leaders really lean into that more and more versus digital or transformation or all these words that are thrown around. I really think service versus customer centricity is very important because as an organization, you need to create, retain those customers. But I think that service and my vision would be that organizations continue to realize that the customer experience and employee experience are the same problem ultimately. That is the service ecosystem that you're trying to make healthy, right? That everyone is thriving within what you're trying to to do in the world. So I would love, at five years from now, that more organizations were seeing that investing in it. And embracing terms like service, journeys, growing their vocabulary, awareness. Exactly. And that's moving away from product because those delivering products these days, nobody is still there in that language. Yeah. I mean, a service technically is a form of product, but I do think that word product is still a barrier. We probably talked about this last time. I could keep going. But yeah, I do think this, you know, a big goal that I think a lot of service designers have is that shift, right? Is can we, can the mentality move from, yeah, we're trying to move things off the conveyor belt in a new way that's not waterfall? But are we still focused on outputs over outcomes? And are we still focused on, are we not focused enough on creating these, you know, like the idea of service of like, human to human service, when every organization I've talked to that's going through digital transformation says, but how do we keep the human touch? You know, especially if an organization has been around for more than 20 years, that's their, they believe that's part of their DNA. And the answer is, well, if you, if you use the approaches from service design, if you use service dominant logic, if you think of service orientation, you're essentially trying to figure out how the interaction between two people, how do you do that at a scale that's often mediated through technology, and it's not through industrial approaches? It's not. So that's the big change. So five years from now, probably still working on it. But I think that's, that's a trajectory. And what that means for our business and how we're doing it, we're going to just continue to be sharp on evolving. But that's the North Star. And we're seeing more and more role models. And I think that's the good thing. There are more and more companies publicly stating this like recently, Airbnb, putting out a statement around this. So that, that helps. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.  They have been doing versions of it for a long time. And when they, you know, when they, when they're, I forgot who it was, but the venture capitalist firm that worked with them originally, you know, they did a case study and like put out the storyboards that they had.  And though those are moments like, okay, I got that. So when they do something like that, it, it is incredibly, you know, such a service to service design, to, and to doing good work to helping companies understand like the, and to have the founder do that, right? That this is not, that's in their scale. This is just, and how close he is still to the importance of that and how that keeps their company oriented around their, not just their business model, but the, the experiences that people have that make it work. Like it's just, yeah, that'll be one we point to for five, the next five years, right? It's going to be a ripple, create a ripple effect. I hope so. I hope so. I was very, very excited. I saw a lot of people posting that and I think we should be all trying to draft off of their reputation and, and that example. It's the next one I'm going to invite on the show. You should, yeah. We need to have, Yeah, he's a good guy, yeah. Well, we'll exchange details later. So we discussed clients a little bit. Now, I'm really curious, I don't know how often you do this, but if you go out and take your client out for dinner, what would be the perfect dinner? And if you could invite a band, a music band, would boy genius be part of that? Well, dinner, well, I would, I would be hostly, first of all, so it would be what they would want to have for dinner, but, and it would depend on where we are, because I would lean towards where the good food is in town. But, you know, if they were, if there was their first time in Atlanta, and we were going out to dinner, I would, if they were adventurous, I would, they have, we have an area called Buford Highway that just has a lot of great international, like every few blocks, it's like you're entering a different country. So that would be really great to do. But yeah, probably, you know, the firm I used to work with, we were really big on taking people to sushi. I might do that. Music wise, yeah, boy genius is good. They just played in Atlanta. Yeah, I'll stick with that for now. I have my music taste changes constantly. Well, that's part of the design. Yeah, I will say for, I will say that, yeah, there were some shows here in town this weekend, but I would say Idols from the UK tore it up. So I would say I might play Idols. That's like great dinner music. If we flip the table and sort of think service design, how has that influenced your life? So rather than you influencing the craft, how has the craft influenced you in your personal and professional context? Well, yeah, I guess it's a series of things. You know, I think this community around service design, the conversations like this one with other people, I really like the people who hang out in our little crazy little world around service design. I've just made a lot of good relationships and friendships through it and learn so much from everybody. So I would say, yeah, that I'm big on continuous learning and so it's kept me focused on that. I'm still curious and interested in it, but a lot of very interesting smart people are attracted to this and it's enriched my life just by being part of it. And I'm sure others feel that way, assume for that's why you do this. But I really, yeah, it's really, it's opened up so many relationships around the world. So that's just been very rewarding. So I, you know, like I said, I'm introverted by nature. So that has gotten me to like, just make a lot more relationships that way. And so, and I think that part of enduring services on a lot of the facilitation that's part of it and things like that, that has been pushing my boundaries. I think of my practice, how it's evolved over time and the comfort level that I've built over time of just getting into a room of people and seeing what happens. So that's been great, great too. Being okay with ambiguity. Yeah, yeah, I was always okay with it. But it, yeah, it's just, it's made me more and more comfortable. Yeah, because just, yeah, you just lean into it. And that those opportunities to be able to do that and then create those opportunities for other people. So yeah. When we think about building new relationships and expanding the network and meeting interesting people, who's your current design crush? Who is the person that you think, man, I wish I had come up with that? Well, I love Lewis book. So good services. The clarity of that. We recommend it to people all the time. The goals of that were different than what Chris and I did, but I hit the nail. I'm sure you've heard that from other people. It's just people read that and then start to then really understand really deeply. And so I just think that is Chris to the point, well-designed book, really, really great work. So yeah, I would say live. That was just, and been helpful, similar to the Airbnb thing. It's just something that like makes the practice more accessible. Yeah, to a wide audience beyond the design community. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, that's one that we, a lot of people here are like, oh, this is great.  So good. We're also waiting for the sequel, that one, definitely a classic. So looking again for a brief moment on your life, personal, private, if you got the opportunity to do something out of something to iterate upon, what would it be? Anything? Anything. Yeah. What needs an iteration? So many, well, so many things. We're talking about me in general. No, I, you know, it's mentioned before about like the pandemic and taking care of yourself and stuff like that. I don't always do that for myself. So I would say that's the biggest thing. I'm, you know, if anyone needs something, I'll be, I'm there. And, you know, it's tripe, but true. Put your mask on before you try to put the mask on someone else in the airplane. So I would say if I could do iteration for me would be to like build in, which is something I'm working on constantly, but you know, build in better self-care practices into my routines. I think that's important for anyone. It's definitely tough when you're leading an organization and working with clients in a pandemic. Yeah, exactly. So I would say that's the main thing. And I would say like, you know, I give that advice to people all the time. I should probably take my advice. What are you doing? Studying yoga, meditation?  It's a constant battle, but I'm the true, you know, I'm trying to get better and better at it.  So it's, it's hard for me to say no, but, but I'm learning. And also, you know, I have a healthy dose of imposter syndrome. So also just cutting myself a break and be kind saying it's good and kind. Yeah, exactly. So, but yeah, I think that's, I think that's something that, you know, building those habits and, and things I'm doing now to get better at that.  It's never too late. Never too hard. That will work in progress. So making a habit and maybe a collaborative habit over here, like doing push-ups every, every hour with the team, right? Why not? So, um, question around harmonic. There have been rumors that there's a secret initiation ritual that involves a unique design task. Can you confirm or deny the existence of that? And if so, what is it? Design tasks. I don't know. Maybe I'm not aware of it. And if there would, would be one, what would it be? Well, one, one thing we did, we do have questions we ask people when they, when they join. I think partly because of the pandemic, one of the questions we ask is how tall people are, because we were hiring and people who, we have staff all over the country. And so we had never met in person. So that, that was one, there's a big battle over coffee versus tea here. Um, the tea people are wrong. Um, but, uh, yeah, there's, there's a fun little like quiz of the thing and questions and things that, that we asked us to get to know, to know one another. And there's a, a crazy spreadsheet that captures that whole history of everyone that's worked with us. So if you want to know any, anyone's height, um, or their Myers-Briggs score or, uh, their favorite food, we have a spreadsheet. Don't let that get leaked on the internet. Um, Patrick, one of my final questions is, if you wouldn't be the current CEO of harmonic design, what do you think your career would have taken you? Oh, that's a good question. Um, I think I would still be doing services on, uh, you know, we, this company emerged out of people who'd worked together before working together again. I think if that, if I had like not come back to Atlanta and met up with that, that gang again, or if, uh, I think I would be maybe trying out what we're seeing with a lot of people in our profession of that solo practitioner, right? Um, but my guess is that I would have gravitated back to then, um, want to be part of a team. So, uh, and I'm not sure if it would be internal or external because both have, um, both can be good and, and, and challenging, but, uh, yeah, I think, uh, yeah, probably, I'd probably be part of some team somewhere and, uh, and I would be as happy to be, uh, to be doing service design and strategy than leading a team or leading company. Um, it's just good work. Uh, I love doing it. Anything outside of the design space? Um, retiring? Uh, no, I really want to teach. Um, I have, uh, you know, we obviously, we do a lot of teaching through our work, but, uh, yeah, I've not had, because of running a company, yeah, I would say I'd probably would have, uh, have been pursuing doing adjunct professorship or, um, writing something else, things like that. Um, that probably would be spending more time on those things. So I hope that's ahead of me. Um, but, uh, yeah, running, yeah, obviously for me and company leading it, uh, there's only so much time. So that's what I've said no to at the moment, but yeah, that's still a passion area. Yeah. So this brings me to our last part of our, of our chat. Uh, thanks a lot already for sharing a lot of these insights into who you are better beyond the service design professional and also the person. Um, before we go, I want to give you the opportunity, any last final words of wisdom or shout outs that you want to do? Uh, well, first, I appreciate you coming to town. Uh, and not just for harmonic, you know, when I would, I'm going to give a shout out to Atlanta.  But I, when I was in San Francisco and I moved back here to Atlanta, um, it was not necessarily to form a company, but I knew this would be a good place to do service design. There is a really great community here. We are not far from Savannah, uh, College of Art and Design, which has a great service line program. Uh, I knew that it, that this would be a good place for me personally to be closer to family and friends, but I knew that I would be surrounded by a bunch of talented people who were, um, we're going to help service design go wherever it was going to go. And so, uh, I would say I'd give a shout out to the community here, um, which I know, you know, a good bit of them, uh, and probably meeting more of them.  If you are interested in service design, it's, uh, it's a really, really great group, uh, a group of people here. So, um, that'll be my shout out. And then of course to my, my team here who are part of that, but, uh, yeah, it's a great place to practice. Yeah, I can second that based on the short experience that I have being here for the last few days, Atlanta definitely seems like a good place for, in general, for, for people, but for design, the design community, uh, in general, so especially that's what I wanted to say. Patrick, uh, thanks again for inviting me over for this opportunity to have a in-person conversation rather than doing everything virtually. Um, was, was an absolute honor. Yeah, great. It's awesome to that you're here and I wish people on the video could see what you're doing the rest of the week, but maybe you'll be sharing some of that too. We'll try to share. So, um, you made it this far into our conversation. Thanks for tuning in to the service design show. I hope you enjoyed it. Please keep making a positive impact and I'll catch you very soon in the next episode. Let's shake hands.


Hey y'all, what's up? My name is Sonali. I haven't posted in a good bit. Um, I just feel like it was not appropriate to post right now because anything I probably could have said was not very relevant to everything going on in the world right now. I decided to mute myself while amplifying black voices in the community over on my IG stories. I'll have a link down below to my Instagram profile and there is a highlight of everything I posted. This week has been eye-opening to say the least. I understand my privilege and I'm really embarrassed to say that this past week was the first time I realized what privilege actually meant. It really clicked when I read something that said being privileged means that you get to learn about history and learn about what's going on instead of experiencing it in your everyday life. I'll be honest, at first I felt like I needed to be silent because I just didn't want to spew out any wrong information. I feel like I just wasn't educated enough, but after listening to black voices in the community this past week, I realized that it really does take the privilege to stand up and speak out to make a change. I want to make it very clear to my friends, followers, and especially the black community that I may not understand exactly what you're going through right now or what you've been through in the past, but I hear you and I stand with you. I've been complacent while growing up. I hated watching the news because I was scared. It just scared the crap out of me going to bed just thinking about all those things that are happening out in the world right now. And yeah, the world is actually scary and this past week has made me realize how important it is to actually stay informed so that we can make a change. I'm going to continue to educate myself and really pay attention to what's going on around me. I know that some of you may not have the means to donate or you may not be of age to vote yet, but I think it's so important to start by even diversifying your feeds on your social platforms, whether it's YouTube and your subscription boxes or on Instagram and your explore feed. Like and engage with different profiles and people that don't look like you and then just kind of like hack that algorithm so it can show more of that on your feeds. And really just like listen to what these women have to say about their past experiences. I've just learned so much on literally just Instagram and even Twitter this past week. And while I'm excited to post my content again, I really understood that this past week was a time to learn and unlearn some things, honestly. I'm going to go ahead and link some accounts that I think y'all should follow down below in the description box. Either I have followed them for years or I just found their accounts this week, but I definitely encourage you guys to just diversify your feeds. So with all that being said, let's get into this vlog. I filmed it so long ago, but I definitely wanted to get it up for you guys and let's get into it. Hey y'all, what's up? My name is Sonali. Welcome to my channel if y'all are new. I just wanted to start the vlog and see where it goes. I mean I have some unboxings to do because in my last couple of vlogs I swear I've admitted I have a problem with shopping and I will admit that time and time again. My mom called me and she was like, are you buying so many hats? Like I'm just curious. I'm like, because I need them and I want them. I don't know. There was like no reason to buy the hats, especially in quarantine, but I just needed them. I was like, you don't understand. I just clocked out of work, thought I would pick up my vlog camera because I actually put on makeup this morning and did my hair for like the first time and so freaking long. It just feels so good to, you know, get ready for once and just like put on a cute workout outfit.  She lives close to downtown and last time we walked from her apartment all the way to the Capitol and back and it was like a good hour and a half, but it was just like nice to get out and active, you know. The last two days I've been working out at home and actually like sticking to a workout and I'm just like, wow, who is she? And I've been eating like really, well, maybe not really healthy, but like pretty healthy. Right. My boyfriend is away right now and has been away for quite a bit of time. I remember when I realized that I would be alone for this long and I actually got like super sad and like slightly angry because I was like, holy crap. Like, why are you going to leave me for that long? Like I can't do anything on my own. Like I just can't be alone for that long. Like all this stuff. I was like really nervous about being home alone. Now I've realized that I actually enjoy being alone and it's actually really nice that he's not here right now because right now is grad season. So I have a lot of work to do on top of my part-time job and on top of my YouTube stuff and Instagram and all of that. Like I have so much going on right now.  But I'm always on my computer just working because I always have work to do. There's never a moment that I don't have anything to do. So I'll be honest, it is kind of nice just to be like alone. But I mean I honestly don't regret moving in with him after college because I graduated in May 2019 for all of you who don't know he did too. And we moved to Austin, Texas. He went to UGA. I went to UCF. So we did long distance for four years, but we're dating for like two years before that. So currently we've been dating for seven years. I remember when we were trying to figure out like what we're going to do after college. We decided that we're going to stay at our parents' houses because it was like free rent and we could save money that way. So that's back in Georgia. That's where we're from. And so then he got a job at Oracle in Austin. So that brought us here. And I was like, thank gosh, like I did not want to move in with my parents, although it probably would have definitely been like financially smarter. But I was like, oh my God, I get to live with my boyfriend. Like I'm so lucky. And like honestly, I still think that to this day it is just the most convenient thing in the world because if you think about it, even if we were to live separately, I would probably be at his place like almost 24 seven or like vice versa. He'd be over at mine and then we'd have to like deal with roommates and it's just like not worth it, you know, but I also wish that I had more years of living with girls because I think that was just such a fun time. I lived in my sorority house my two, the last two years of my college career. And it was just like literally the best time and the two years before that I lived with my best college friend. But obviously here I wouldn't have known anyone to live with. But do I regret moving in with my boyfriend after college? Absolutely not. I don't regret it at all. Like I said, it's convenient. I've also always dreamed about like being a wifey and being like in the kitchen and like, you know, cleaning and stuff. And like, I know not many people dream about that kind of stuff, but for some reason I've just been like obsessed with the idea of like doing things for my man. And obviously it does get overwhelming with all the other things I have to do. But I don't know, it just feels so rewarding when I cook us a nice meal and I really just love doing it. It's almost going to be a year of living in Austin. And it's just crazy to think that because that means like it's almost, well, it has been a year since I graduated college. A couple of weeks ago I was on the phone with my mom and I was like, damn, life just like went so fast, you know, like I feel like I was in high school and then I was in college and then, hello, I'm an adult. It's just crazy how life goes so fast and it's just kind of scary to be honest. But speaking of moving to Austin, I feel like I've gotten so many DMs the past couple of months from people moving to Austin and like wanting advice and like, you know, asking me questions about the areas and stuff like that. And I definitely want to do more videos about Austin because I know there wasn't really much out there to like look up on YouTube, especially because me and my boyfriend didn't visit here before we moved here. You know, why like waste the money to visit if you know you're going to just move there? I don't know. That was kind of our mentality because you already have the job. It's not like we would have said no, you know. So if you guys have any video suggestions about anything you want to see in Austin, let me know in the comments down below. Things are definitely opening up here. We did eat at two restaurants. One was Pluckers and it was very eerie in there. It literally looks like a hospital because obviously people were wearing masks and they took like a lot of tables away and it was just like not a very nice place to begin with. So it felt like really like scary and weird. But then we went to Gloria's and if you guys are from Austin or like, I think they have them in Texas spread out. I don't know. There's like a couple in Austin. So I think it's a chain. But anyways, Gloria's is amazing food and we went there and it was actually really nice. It was like the most perfect day and we sat on the patio. So it was a lot nicer because we didn't really have to see like the people with masks and be reminded of it every single second while we're eating dinner. Since Ryan's been away, I don't really want to cook that much because I don't really know how to cook for one person. So I actually tried out some of the pre-made meals from HEB, which is our grocery store here. And they are bomb and it's nice to see like the calories of how much it actually is because if I cooked it myself, I probably would have put in all these extra things and not know how many calories it is and just probably like eat a lot more because it's already portioned out for you. So that's been really nice.  I need to cut them up before they rot. So we're going to do that and use my new juicer. I literally found it on Facebook Marketplace. I think it was like $35 or something. For some reason, it like won't really get clean though. Like I'll literally scrub it so hard and it still looks like there's fruit residue. So if you guys have a juicer and like know how to clean it, like let me know like what I need to be doing differently. The past few times I've juiced orange juice. It was like the regular oranges in the bags. So they were like a lot smaller and it just took so much time to cut off the peel because if you juice the orange with the peel, I did it the first time and I tried it and it was the most bitter thing ever. It was disgusting.  So definitely cut the peel off. I'm very curious to see what the difference in taste is going to be between these oranges. This is like a navel orange, I'm pretty sure. Let's see. Yeah, a navel orange. I don't know what the other kind of oranges were but they were just not this big. So I only got four of these and the last time I juiced oranges, I used two bags and it like made like a big mason jar. So I split it between me and Ryan. I like to cut it down the middle to get all this white stuff out of it, not all of it but just like the main thing. So I'm noticing that the peel is so much thicker on this orange that it ends up just being like a normal orange. Like this is a half and I feel like that's just a normal orange compared to like the whole thing, you know? I just pulled out my juicer. This is the Breville juice fountain. So I have all my oranges cut up.   But we are going to start by... Oh wait, we're going to start by putting this... So that is all the oranges. It actually made like a good amount. I feel like seeing it in a glass it's going to be like a lot. So as you can see it's like separating because that's like all the foam but once it like sets a little bit, it's going to be fine. It's going to like pretty much all look like this. Maybe not all but a good amount. So that looks good. Now I have to clean this because I've heard it's better to clean it right then and there and I'm just that kind of person.  I made the mess now so I'm going to clean it now and it's really not that hard to clean. I had to like look up some YouTube videos just because I literally did not know how to pop like this thing out, this like little filter and like I don't know how to clean it. I don't even know if that's clean to be honest. But we're just going to hope it's clean because I tried to scrub it so many freaking times but anyways this is all the orange peels and honestly I wish I had like a compost but like I don't know what I would use it for. Like I don't live in a house, I live in an apartment and maybe I just need to do a little bit more research on them because I don't really know what they're supposed to do. Like I think they help plants grow but I don't know. Anyways, I just feel bad wasting all these peels. Okay, this is supposed to like pop right out but it's not. Okay, there we go. Okay, and then this comes off and oh my god, there was more juice. There was more. Yeah, this definitely makes a mess as you can see. It's very messy but it's fine because I just wiped the counters down right after. I let that orange juice sit while I was cleaning the dishes and this is what it looks like now and you can see how it's like separated. I'm thinking this time I want to strain the foam because I don't know. Like it's probably good for you but I wonder if it's actually like juice or foam, you know? So I kind of want to see and we're going to test it out. I have my little mason jar thing. Well it's actually really not little, it's like huge and then it has like this cap right here. It's so cute. I got it on Amazon and I will link them down below if you guys are wanting to check it out because I'm literally obsessed with my cups. Okay, let's see how much this fills up. I just want to show you guys the color of this orange juice. I feel like that's more like true to color. It is a beautiful bright orange. I think this foam thing is actually working. It is so refreshing and tastes so freaking good. So I'm going to actually put this in the refrigerator. I'm not going to drink all of this right now. I'll probably just like leave it in the cup for like the course of like two days and drink it and sip it whenever I want to. But I do need to chill this because the oranges were actually sitting out because they were all room temperature, but so yummy. I'm headed out for my walk. I'm going to take Sophie and meet Taylor over by downtown area and we're just going to have a really nice walk. It's supposed to be really nice outside today. It's been raining like the past week or so or even more and I think it finally kind of stopped. So I'm so happy about that because I just hate the rain. My hair is kind of messed so bear with me. I just got back from my walk and I didn't take any videos because Taylor was like I'm just leaving my phone in my apartment. I don't want to have to worry about it. And I was like, you know what? That sounds really nice. I'm going to do the same thing and it was honestly a great idea on her part. So I'm glad we did that. But I'm sorry for not getting any footage but I did promise you guys and unboxing so I just went and picked up all my packages from my apartment Amazon lockers. Okay so this first thing is my tennis skirt. I told you guys about it in like my last vlog I think. First impressions, I feel like the quality is really really good. It feels like blue lemon or like something very comparable to that and I'm so excited to wear it.  It's very like flared and it's the brand Queenique. Queeniac or something and I got it in the size 12. I wonder if it's going to fit me. Hopefully it does because I'm really excited about that. I just I ordered like these tennis skirts that were really just like straight and not very flattering. I don't know why I did that but I guess I just didn't realize that that was like more of the style I was going for. I got some gold filled jewelry on Amazon and I you know got to invest in my jewelry. So this is the first ring. I don't know if I'll be able to show it. It's like just like a flat kind of band and I got it in size eight. It's kind of tight but it's okay. I look like I have such chubby fingers because it's hugging it so tight but I mean it's not actually like tight type but I wonder if I'm like eight and a half but I don't know if the website had like half sizes so I just went with the eight because I didn't want it like falling off my finger but then I got these stacked rings. You can like stack them alone or together I'd probably stack them like alone. So that's what that looks like. I actually got this bracelet. These are like super in style right now and I found it on Amazon. They're just these like gold bracelets. This is what it looks like on my wrist and I feel like it looks so good with like a stacked set. So I just have to invest in my stack but this was definitely like the first piece and I have one bracelet from Majuri. It's just like a cuff thing. I think that's what it's called. So I have two gold pieces for bracelets. This next one is a swimsuit. I just want new swimsuits honestly and I found this high-waisted bikini and I think... I'm not sure if that's the butt or the front but this is what it looks like and then the top has some padding in it. It's literally just like a sports bra kind of feel so I'm hoping that one fits but I really like this color. It's just like an olive green color and I got this in... I want to say a large but I will have like my sizes in the comments down below with the links to all of these products just in case you guys are interested in them too. The next one is a swimsuit from Cupshe but it was on Amazon and it's funny because the company actually reached out to me literally this morning and I was like, that brand name sounds so familiar so I went back to see what I just ordered it's literally from the same brand. It's like the weirdest thing but I love this color and I like one pieces they make me feel a lot more confident than bikinis but I like that it has like the little cut out so I can show my waist a little bit and plus this has padding in it too and the one shoulder trend is super trendy right now and then I got this in a large as well so I'll try to update you guys if those two swimsuits fit but the quality on them was really good and they were really affordable so these are iPad screen protectors in the last vlog I said my iPad was like literally on it's deathbed actually already dead so I ended up ordering a new iPad oh frick oh thank god I got the 11 inch so I was like oh my god what if I ordered the 12.9 inch screen protector but it's an 11 inch so we are good on that I feel like I ordered more rings than I got so I'm gonna have to look at my Amazon account I'm gonna make dinner I honestly don't know what to make myself because I've been having like H.E.B pre-made meals but I think I ran out I mean I have food to make but I'm like do I really want to put in the effort to make myself something I might make like tacos with steak and stuff but I'm trying to eat healthy but like taco sounds really good so I might do that and then I have two steaks so I'll possibly probably just like cook the other one for my lunch tomorrow I decided to opt out of the tortilla just because you know less carbs so I just opened up an avocado and I swear this thing has been sitting in my refrigerator for so long but I've been having the best luck with avocados like they always turn out to be perfect when I feel them like I swear I think they are rotten so what I have right now is just the steak which honestly wasn't a lot because it was a pretty thin steak but I think it'll be fine and then I put cheese on top and I'm gonna do an avocado salsa and sour cream you know it obviously isn't probably the healthiest but I feel like eliminating the tortilla is gonna make it a little bit healthier oh and also the most important part is the lime I love lime on my food I literally put it on like a lot of my food I'm using a paper plate because I really just don't feel like doing dishes because I just did them but I'm adding the finishing touch a lime and then we're ready to eat I feel like this is actually a lot of food the avocado made it a lot I think it'll be good I just finished my dinner and my meals were really good even though I didn't have the tortilla it didn't really taste like anything was missing which was nice because the flavor was all still there that is definitely one thing I learned while doing keto like literally I don't know how many summers ago it was so long ago but I learned to just leave out the bread sometimes and the carbs because it literally can taste the exact same but I'm gonna end the vlog here I'm honestly not sure how much content I even have for you guys today but let me know in the comments if you guys like long vlogs or like 10 minute vlogs because I personally like 15 to 20 minute vlogs just because it's like a TV show kind of feel and I feel like 10 minutes just goes by so fast but I also totally understand if you're one of those people that it's just like get to the freaking point so I definitely love to hear your feedback in the comments but I'm gonna go get in the shower and I'll see y'all in my next vlog bye


But these are the people who I don't think that really understand or get what faith actually is. We don't mean just a generic faith, a temporary faith, but I mean a faith where we have just kind of anchored ourselves in it, meaning we trust it, whatever it is that the basis of our faith is we live our lives because of it. For example, if I know it's going to be 110 degrees outside, and I really do trust that I trust what the words of the weatherman said, I trust the words of the thermostat or what have you. Then I'm going to live my life at least as long as 110 degrees outside. I'm going to live my life accordingly. I'm going to set the house at a certain temperature. I might keep the curtains drawn in and keep the house a little cooler. And when I go outside, I'm not wearing a coat. I'm not wearing something thick and heavy. I'm not wearing a sweater. Why? Because I really do trust what they said. And oh, by the way, I'm going to live that way. Why? Because I don't want the after effects. I want to be comfortable. But I might have some work to do out there as well. The same holds true with us as believers. As believers, if we say we got faith, if I say I have faith, do you know what the world should see? If I say that I have faith, what should the world see? I mean, let's think about this for a second. They shouldn't see a person who doesn't look like they don't have faith. Remember, Jesus is in the boat with these guys. In the boat. This is important. In the boat, there's a storm. They see the storm. They're experiencing the storm. The waves are moving. The boat is moving. The rain is coming down. The wind, they hear it. They may see the lightning, hear the thunder. But a couple of things that we need to understand about this. One, the storm really wasn't affecting them. It was just around them, but it wasn't affecting them. They hadn't been tossed overboard. They hadn't been hurt or harmed while inside the boat. And then most importantly, they literally have their eyes to look at the feast on Jesus. Look at Jesus. He's there. He's in the boat with them. That wasn't enough. What was more disheartening to them or more concerned to them wasn't who was with them, but who was on the outside, the storm. And so when Jesus rebukes the storms, the wind and waves, and then he speaks to them, what does he say to them? It's as though you have no faith. Oh, ye of little faith. So when someone sees us as Christians and we say that we are Christians, why? Because of faith. Because of faith alone. Faith alone is all that's required. Well, if that faith is true faith, shouldn't somebody see it? Shouldn't at least, shouldn't it be obvious? Shouldn't it be evident if we're going to be separate? If people are going to see our light, as Jesus says, let our light so shine that people will see our good works and then do what glorify God. Well, they see our light. That light is a byproduct of our faith. The reason why our light is shining. The reason why Jesus says, let them see our good works, these good works come as a result of our faith.  The amount of people who even on YouTube or Facebook that will be upset at the moment at the hint of you saying anything about some sort of works. It's a back loaded salvation. It's a workspace salvation. No, it's not you unfaithful Christian. No, it's not. Now it's time that we start questioning people who are saying that if someone desires to live for Christ. When I say live, this is an action, some movement. When people say that, then you get attacked for having a workspace salvation. No, we have a salvation based work. And that's the way it is. As a matter of fact, before I go to some other passages, and by the way, there's another group that I want to talk about as well. But I want to, I want to go to a passage. I want to go to a famous passage. This is the Hebrews. This Hebrews 11, the great hall of faith as we call it. I want to, I don't want to start in verse one. I met, you know what? Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Let's go to Hebrews chapter 11. I'm in verse 30. But before I go to verse 30, let me go to verse one and then I'll come back to verse 30. Now, faith is the assurance of things hoped for. Faith. Now, this faith is the belief, the trust, this trust that we have, this value system, this proof of it is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. So what that really means is faith, what is faith? This is us living our lives based on this set of proof, this bedrock of things. Then what Christ has done. And so faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the things that I have not seen. There's some evidence for that. Or as they say in this passage, the conviction of things not seen. You'll see my convictions. You'll see my evidence in that faith. Though I can't see it or you can't see it, you'll see it where? In me. Now I want to go back to it. I want to go to verse 30. And let me just type it in. So I want to show you something. We know about some of the people in this Hall of Faith. Now some of these people saw some things and then their faith increased or heard some things. I want to focus on a few of the people who heard some things. Not so much saw some things but heard some things. These folks in Jericho, by faith these people walked around. The walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith, Rahab hadn't seen a thing but she heard what has happened. She has heard what has happened from God or by God with his people. We didn't see one resurrection. We didn't see anyone any blind being given sight. We didn't see someone raised from the dead. We didn't see Jesus on the cross. We didn't see Abraham, Isaac or Jacob. We didn't see Noah. We didn't see getting. We didn't see Jeremiah. We didn't see any of those things. But we heard. We heard the word. And by faith we trusted. Just like he says earlier, by faith we believe the earth was created. None of us were there but we were told this by his word. And so because we live our lives. Rahab hadn't seen a thing but she had heard. So the Bible says by faith. By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient after she had welcomed the spies in peace. What does that mean? Well what that means is by faith, her faith, her trust in what God has done, she did something. Her faith caused action. Are you with me? It is a faith based work. Not a work based faith but a faith based work. That's what's required. That's what's important. The Bible says the harvest is plentiful but the laborers are few. Well the reason why no one's going out there to be laborers because maybe it's because too few of us actually have that kind of faith. You know the kind of faith that says the world is on fire. It's yet to end. We need to get people off this sinking ship. That kind of faith that really takes it true. It takes the heart what the word says. Let's keep reading verse 32. And what more shall I say? For time will fail me if I tell you of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David and Samuel. There are so many people in the Bible we can point to who because of their faith they moved. It shouldn't be that there are people that are more committed who have faith in absolutely nothing. We've got Muslims who are more committed to this demonic cause that they're in than us as believers who have the true and living God supposedly living in us. That's a huge problem. Those people who remember the Bible says this. The life that I live, Galatians 2.20. I have been crucified with Christ and is no longer I who live but Christ lives in me and the life which I now live in the flesh. So the things I'm doing, the life that I'm living in the flesh. I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God for if righteousness comes through the law then Christ died needlessly. So they're saying I'm not trying to do certain words to gain righteousness. I'm not trying to do certain things to gain anything from heaven. But because I have gained something namely Christ who lives in me now that's how you judge me. Not just me trying to get righteous because of my works but because I am righteous now I work. The life that I live is because Christ is in me and people should be able to see it. I think we've got this thing misunderstood where we act as though faith is something that we keep internally. No, no, because if that were the case it would do no good for anyone else.  Salt that loses season, season then or loses saltiness. That's what we would be the kind of people like that who we're just out here on our own. We don't really care about because if you really did really had faith in what the word says you would also. And by the way, if you actually are believers you would actually have some sort of compassion sort of faith in what God has said is going to happen. And the compassion left for other people believing what God is going to do for those who aren't his and all you have to do is share the gospel or at least try. Obviously their salvation is not dependent upon you but their salvation is dependent upon them hearing it. Why won't you be the person that they hear it from or at least see it? Makes you wonder about some people's level of faith. Remember the Bible says this one thing says that we were created. Let's go to Ephesians 2 10. You all know the passage and I want to break it down a little bit more. In Ephesians 2 10 says for we that's us believers are his workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works which God prepared beforehand. What is the antecedent excuse me of this word prepared beforehand? What was prepared beforehand? These good works. These works that we should so that we should walk in them. We know that is because it's so that we should walk in them. Walk in what? These works that were created beforehand. But even if you want to fight me on that these works were the ones created by him. It doesn't really matter. The fact is we should walk in them. Walk in what? In these works. God desires for us to be used on this planet. Remember Bible says that David after he fulfilled his purpose then he rested. Some of us got a purpose to fulfill but we never reached it because... And it makes you wonder. Let's be honest. It makes you wonder. Can we just be honest? It makes people wonder. Are you really what you say you are? It's like I never forget there was a guy who this was when I was in the choir. And there was a guy that came in who said that he could play the guitar. And he had one little riff one little guitar riff that he could play. But then everything else was like wait a second. You said that you can play the guitar. Can we see it? We can't. So why would you say it? Let us know about the hope that you have in you. And so it just makes you... It boggles the mind. It boggles... What did James say? I know this passage for some reason for some is offensive. And they think that people don't understand it. It's pretty clear. He says what uses it? What uses it my brother? If someone says he has faith but has no works. Meaning there's nothing that is produced by that sort of faith. There's nothing that anyone in many cases that person can see. Well the Lord knows my heart really. Can that faith save him? The point is what kind of faith is that? Again. And let me just say it clearly. No one is saying that you are saved by your works. You don't do things to be saved. Nor do you do anything to stay saved. But once you are saved you will do something. If you think that once you get saved that there is nothing that you're going to do then I question your salvation. Matter of fact even more so if there's nothing that you want to do. Are you going to tell me that the Holy Spirit resides in you? According to Jesus the Holy Spirit wants to testify of Jesus. And you don't do that. Then is that because the Holy Spirit isn't in you? That's a question that the person is going to have to answer themselves. Now we're not out here being fruit inspectors trying to figure out who's doing the most work. This person did the most work compared to this person. And so we can tell that this person is saved or more saved than this person. You know because the person with the most works he himself or she or herself may not actually even be saved. The point is we're talking about those that actually are saved and you know who you are. If you are indeed then the Lord should be working in you. When the Bible says work out your soul, work out your salvation the point is it is because of or in view of your salvation work. In view of your salvation get to move and get to doing something. And so there are these folks who just absolutely just aggravate me to some degree. Not a lot, but to some degree maybe it requires some patience but who resist the mere notion of someone doing something based on their faith because in life apply this to everything. Tell me something outside of the Bible that you have faith in, that you trust in, that doesn't cause you to move accordingly. Name something.  Then that spouse is going to question it.  Now if you think that you can make it well then now you got faith in yourself. People with faith in themselves they tend to show it as well. Name something that you have faith in that it does not cause you to do something in life based on that. Not something biblical. I'm just talking about faith in something else. Again, faith in what the weatherman said. Faith in you if you work this many hours then they're going to pay you. If you work overtime they're going to pay you more. Faith in that.  How many times did it take you to do that? One time for me. One time that I had more than enough faith.  So what do I avoid touching fires? Faith to know that if I stick a fork in an outlet that'll be the last time I stick a fork in an outlet. I've got that kind of faith. So I think we need to move on and stop fighting other Christians because they want to see us. Because if there should be anybody on the planet that should be working for the Lord it should be Christians. If there should be anybody out there that's showing some tangible, godly works it should be those folks who say they have faith, who have trusted in Christ. So if you have a problem with that, fine. Send me an email. Send me a comment. Make a video so I can come see you because we have a problem. The problem is the world is going in the wrong directions and you'd rather folks be silent. And when you want to say that it's a back loaded works based salvation. Okay fine. Again send me the email. Send me the comment.  Because the issue is, by the way it didn't funny that the very some the very same people who say that it's not about the having any works and they're not saved by works. And then we asked well do you do any work? Do you pray? Do you read? Do you ever share your testimony? Well yeah. Okay, so your works are okay but someone else's are not. And no one's highlighting that. No one is saying that that's what made you saved. So let's let's say it again. Let's slow it down. No one is saying that your works made you saved. What we are saying is you being saved internally having the Holy Spirit would cause you to want to testify. Was that slow enough? Did you did you catch that? Now there's another group that also bothers me. This this group probably bothers me just a little bit more. These are the people who would say that their level of faith is greater than let's say somebody like mine who have the same level of beliefs meaning this. I don't look to nor do I need to have someone else do something in order for me to move in order for me to have faith. I don't need to see someone fall out. I don't need someone to speak in tongues. I don't need to see a miracle in order for me to believe anything. My faith is not dependent upon what someone did or let's be honest what someone said they did. I don't care what you felt.  I don't care what you heard someone say happened and there'd be no evidence to it. I don't bother me. They don't do anything for me at all. I don't care. You know how I can tell your level of faith. See if your faith in the word into nothing you don't have faith. Let me say it again. If your faith in the word isn't enough you my friend don't have faith guy was telling me the other day that he has to he goes down and he speaks in tongues and his prayer life and it just gives him more energy. It grows him and it it causes him to have a deeper walk with Christ. Well then I question your faith. I question your faith in the word. I question your fidelity or your love to the word. I do because let's just be honest there are some Muslims some Hindus who do the same thing who speak in these tongues now. You've got more and more people you've got more people in cults who are speaking in these tongues. By the way when we first saw these kind of tongues we see today it was some time ago with these cults but they all said the same thing that they feel closer to God when they speak in tongues. Fine. But that's how you're edified. Well the word edifies me. I have faith in the word. If the word isn't enough then you're not saved. If the word isn't enough there's a reason why you're not saved. How was that reason? Jesus says an evil and adulterous generation seeks after signs. Now you get a sign you will get a sign the sign of Jonah that is that he will be buried in the tomb in the grave and then three days later rise. You don't want to believe that sign though. That's that's not enough. Show me something do something for me. Do y'all know that what's kind of interesting and I don't know how many of you guys watch pro basketball but of late I think three or four recent coaches who had recently won the NBA championship I've talked about a year ago two years ago three years ago I mean recently were fired why because it was one of those what have you done for me lately kind of things well you can't win the championship every year and so people today have that same sort of spiritual mentality because I didn't I've got to see something spiritual something wonderful every every day every week otherwise I might lose it I've got to I've got to see something why don't you see the words why don't you open the book and see your head down in it and read those words place some faith in what you do realize there's a reason why he gave us the bible there is a reason why we have the bible and we can use that bible to validate what someone else is doing but then someone's gonna come back and say no you're putting a guy in the box who are you to say who are you or how dare you as I was said something by somebody how dare you judge what this person's tongues are this person's casting out of demons or this person's movement how dare you who are you I'm just a boy with a bible that's what I am just just a man with the word I can go and look at that how dare I how dare you not want to be judged by the word what kind of Christian who says they have faith don't want to have what they what they're saying they're doing what kind of Christian wouldn't want to stand up or what they say this happened be judged to be scrutinized in light of the word of God again you can say what you want to say about about me not having faith but I'll put my walk and I'm not trying to be braggadoce I really am not but I get this all I mean when I say all the time I'm constantly getting bombarded you don't know the Lord you don't trust the Lord you don't have faith you don't have the Holy Spirit well who was with me for those 13 years who grew me how was my faith and when I take my faith will sustain mere the mere fact that I'm here and God has just been blessed me is a testimony not to me I had nothing to do with it but a testimony to him a testimony to him the mere fact that I'm out early early is a mere testimony to him my faith in him I trust in him I will put my faith up against anyone else's faith not that it's greater but it's in the same God and so I don't need to see anything there are a lot of people let me just tell you guys this this is the truth there are a lot of people in prison who were demoralized because they prayed and didn't get what they wanted and they were demoralized because they thought they had to see something to validate God God didn't do this and so therefore I'm not with God well first of all that tells what the person never really was never had a relationship with Christ in the first place and your relationship is dependent upon seeing some things him doing some things well again I contend you don't know him because knowing him would be enough how bad would it be how how how crazy would it be if your wife or your husband your spouse said I need to see more in order for me to be with you would that would that be would that be problematic I need to see you I need to see you earn some more money I need to see you uh I don't know make your face a better I need to see you cook better I need to see you do the yard I need I need to see some stuff I need to see more money but I need to see a better car yeah that's what I need to see I need to see all these things in order for me to know that you're with me you know so you mean tell me just being with you isn't enough nope nope not enough believe it or not some of us some of you some of us all we do that with God just being with you isn't enough Paul makes a statement he's listen I've been up I've I've abounded in many ways and I've been down I've been in base I've been lowered but whatever state of man I have learned to be content that's faith that's faith like Joe shall we take the good and not the bad he's God I'll take whatever you got because whatever you got came from you and you're doing something in me as long as I'm with you I'm good and so it makes me wonder we've got to again everybody that calls himself a christian isn't a christian we know we know that how do we know they're a christian how do we know do we need to know does the world need to know and does the word and know who christians are does the world need to see who christians are how do they see who how do you tell me anyone that how does a world how does the world see that you are christian how does the world get to witness what christian looks like I can promise you it's not the person who's not doing anything I can promise you that the world can't know that way and I can also promise you the world doesn't know if you're falling out speaking in in in in gibberatic I made that word up if you're speaking in gibberatic gibberish tongues the world doesn't believe that I can promise you the world doesn't see it if you are claiming some sort of fake demon being tossed I can promise that but what the world can see and respect I've seen it over and over and over again genuine faith is when people who do have human faith and love of Christ share him and do so in a compassion fashion fashion being merciful understanding that it won't happen at this moment some folks get upset and frustrated with the person when you go and preach the gospel they don't get saved at that moment they get frustrated we just go on a hill anyway y'all see that some of the some and I'm not knocking them I guess I am to some degree some of the street preachers who it's almost so they want to have a fight with the people they're preaching to did you expect for everyone did you expect for everyone to hear you and to understand you and to accept what you're saying you're going to hell friend you're gonna burn well there's a way to say it now that's if that's your approach well then hey god bless you if that's your approach uh someone may have a different approach but whoever it is whatever your approach is if you think that you're going to bat a thousand well then that's not about Jesus didn't do so and he could have but he didn't do so John didn't do so Paul didn't peter did and so we get frustrated and angry because people don't come to Christ when I say they should or how I say they should that no no uh faith based on what we read will tell us that some people plant some water god gives you increase in every every every seed that that that you put on the ground every every word that's sown in the ground it's dependent upon it being sown on good soil what's the good soil as Jesus says it's the heart well I can't control the heart so I don't know if the person's going to take and receive what I said um what they take it for the moment and and then the cares of the world choke it um compassion comes what have you my job is do my job all you can do is all you can do and all you need is what you have which is the word again the word the word so compels me so feels me that I have I like telling somebody about something I will tell a stranger I'll when a person's having a bad day or going through something brother can I tell you how I have not had a bad day in four years what do you mean you haven't had a bad day in four years well some things have happened some things that I didn't like have happened some things that may have upset me but my day still keeps moving why because the life that I live is no longer I who live it but it's Christ who lived the one who died for me and I've seen him um show up in my life not to do things but just to show up and be with me this peace and then well tell me more some say some say hey I don't care about that I don't hear about that mess okay and I keep it moving but what's in me should want to come out the holy spirit should want to come out and some folks don't want matter of fact what's funny is some people only want only want to show the goodness of the Lord in the confines of other people who also the goodness of the Lord or what does that do we are literally preaching or in some case you guys speaking tongues to the choir that part we need to fix guys we need to develop or have a sort of faith a conviction and I'm and I'm using this word a conviction that is so rooted in the love of the Lord as well as the terror of the Lord as Paul says uses both of those to preach to people to compel people to even show love and mercy to people that guy the point of seeing and witnessing if some are or hearing about the power of the Lord is to cause you to get to him and even if you are in him to grow in him and so that's what true faith looks like true faith looks like I have decided to base my life off of what I believe and what I believe is rooted in grounded in these words if these words aren't enough that you're not safe and if these words aren't enough to cause you to want to move James is that the kind of faith that saves you now he may not necessarily be questioning if they're saved or he might be might be saying listen you might want to get up off your duff and do something but I challenge you if you are a believer if you are the redeemed say so matter of fact not only say so show so amen