It's Sunday morning at 10 a.m. at Def Con be a bee amazed. I'm alive. I Didn't say not hungover I said alive So Everyone I'm Dan If you're expecting some you know second Dan Kaminsky talk, that's not at all what this is about A couple months ago Tiffany and end grain came to me asking for for some data for for some reason they thought I had DNS information And I asked you know what for and they they actually explained it to me, and I'm not gonna steal end grains thunder, but It was one of those really classic Hacking is not about you know some crazy stunt you pull sometimes It's just about noticing something so painfully obvious. You're amazed. It's never come up in discussion before I Was really impressed. I thought it was something that really should be at Def Con and I Think we really do need to have a have more speakers more mentorship in our community So I said dude come out to Def Con present your data We'll all like it and we'll all come and listen to you talk So that's what we're here for and I will give the mic over to end grain How's everyone doing? Yeah, thanks. This is my first time at Def Con and presenting so Thank you. Thank you Hi End grain drink No, thanks. No, thanks. That's I'm also I am end grain, but my real name is Elliot Bradbury Here we go. Well, first of all, I just want to say that While the information in my section of the presentation is specific to USM We actually found that it applies to other universities a lot of other universities So I don't want to make the impression that we're targeting the University of Southern Maine Because that's not what we're trying to do here Okay, so discovery well, I first connected to the USM network in in spring of 2008 and It was on the wireless network on our campus and I just want to start with saying our campus is split between two cities So it's kind of weird one of the cities has all the dorms and then there are some classrooms there And then the other campus has all classrooms. So When I say wireless network, I'm usually talking about the campus. That's all classrooms. That's in Portland So I first connected that network in the spring 2008 and Naturally one of the first things I did was connect IRC, you know, just as usual and Thanks So I was just hanging out join the normal servers that I do and all of a sudden I realized that people Were addressing me with my full name and I thought okay either I got hacked or someone's just playing a joke on me and I just dug around a little bit it really only took a simple who is on myself and discovered that First of all the DHCP server that's used on the wireless network Leases internet-reliable IP addresses completely public IP addresses And that more importantly the domain names take the form of first name dash last name Dot wireless that usm dot main dot edu and I was just yeah awesome. Thank you for that So later in the fall of 2008 discovered that the dorms I moved on campus, you know, so now to the other city of Gorham and discovered that the dorms have a similar configuration and In the dorms you generally use the wired ethernet land there so those That network has a similar configuration your domain name is first name dash last name dot dorm dot usm dot main dot edu and actually Earlier this summer. I had to go into it the it office on campus to get some help with a separate issue and I Don't know if anyone uses horde the webmail client, but it logs where you last Logged in from the IP address or the domain name and so when I went into the office the The person that helped me let me log into my email account from there So kind of exposed that they're using even a similar configuration for their own IT staff. So They the domain names take the form of first initial middle initial last name dot acs dot usm dot main dot edu So even from within the IT network, they have a similar configuration. So What does this mean? exactly with these Unnecessarily verbose Domain names it means that sensitive information is now unnecessarily public and It's out there for anyone, you know, it just takes a simple reverse DNS lookup and You have all this information so What information exactly does the domain name that is assigned to you when you connect to these different networks? What is it? What does it contain? Well? The most general thing and pretty much unavoidable is that the user is attending a main university You really can't avoid that piece of information more specifically that the user is attending University of Southern Maine and and how the user is connected to the network and if Well, there's basically two ways that you connect. There's the wireless network or there's the wired LAN in the dorms and Especially with prior knowledge of how the campus is set up the split campus It's it's easy to get an approximate physical location from Your domain name just from looking at it because there's the either Wireless sub-domain or dorms sub-domain and Lastly and most importantly the user's full name is in there for everyone to see So the bottom line is that it's just an unacceptable Policy why on earth are they using these naming conventions when you access the network when you when you log in? Why is why is it like this so? At about the time that I realized that this was a really bad thing I Wanted it to really do more research, so I decided to turn it into a class project for Tiffany and This is when I started looking into how Access is controlled on the network The the wireless network is Not open to the public. So there are some forms of access control So I remember when I first connected I think I was using my laptop you're required to log in with your With your university account This is probably very common Probably, you know any other college students could confirm that their Universities do a similar thing. So basically the first time you connected device. You're redirected to a web page That asked you to enter your your university account information and at USM Actually when you go to the page it tells you this is your MAC address and so enter your password So it was pretty obvious that what what they were doing for a an access control system was They were pairing your MAC address with your university account and So if you successfully authenticate then that MAC address is permanently paired with your account and It's also paired with a semi-static public IP address I say semi-static because it's reserved for you But they still use DHCP and I want to stress public IP address meaning that it's internet routable You're not Shielded by any edge devices. There aren't any routers in your way. Everyone's just right out there completely public IP addresses So after you go through this authentication process for the first time Subsequent access to the network is just automatic. You don't have to log in every time you want to use the network And that's because you've already registered that device. You've already registered that MAC address So there's this network-wide device registration database and it somehow interfaces with the DHCP server so that it Leases the correct IP address to you Okay, so So weaknesses in this access control system well complete trust is placed in The MAC address as a unique identifier, which isn't a bad thing But it shouldn't be trusted that it can never be changed. Everyone knows that you can spoof MAC addresses Okay, so that's the probably the biggest weakness here The second one is why are they using global global IP addresses? it just puts the user at an unnecessary risk and I Don't maybe someone can tell me but I don't know why they use a Configuration like that just doesn't make sense to me then the third weakness is that there's no port based security on the on the land and the dorms meaning that MAC addresses are not Locked to physical ports on the switch And it's pretty much impossible to do that on campus because you know pretty much everyone has a laptop they Register it in their room run next door to their friends room plug it in there go to another dorm Whatever you just can't you can't lock down the network like that. It's just too mobile so Potential for abuse here. What if What if you spoof your MAC address to someone else's that's already registered on the network? you would effectively impersonate that user and Be able to do whatever you want Basically under their identity you could view questionable web content. You could do file sharing whatever you want to do and How how could that be done? Well? basically, well what it would involve was would be logging What users are on the network? And that's very simple. It's just you can basically sit there and passively sniff any kind of traffic and log who had who has access to the network and Basically what you're doing is recreating the database that the university uses to see if a user is Allowed on the network.  These these MAC addresses are valid and Because of the domain name that gets assigned To you when you access the network you actually have a list of full names and the MAC addresses that That go with those accounts so so You can basically pick and choose if you wanted to if someone wanted to do this you could pick by name. Okay. I want to screw Tiffany over so I'm gonna take her take her identity identity and I Don't know do some bad things hacking at some university servers or something that that's possible Not that you would want to do that. That's a terrible idea I'm just saying it's it's possible. I guess Okay, so kind of some unanswered questions here The DHCP servers build these domain names and dolemount to the users along with their IP address and all the other usual information that DHCP does but how exactly is the DHCP server Giving you your your Subdomain like how is it adding your full name in there? How does it know what your full name is? So is it is this feature part of a DHCP package or is it something that the university has created themselves? Are they possibly Pulling that information from their HR database or Something along those lines That's not clear the back end how they're getting your full name I mean, obviously they have it, but is this a feature that's built into a DHCP server already Why is each device on the network given an internet-reliable IP address? And Most importantly, why does my host name contain my full name? Okay, so I Created this proof of concept tool. It's just a network analysis tool very simple. You could actually kind of recreate it with other tools to group together, but it basically logs the MAC addresses and domain names which contain full names of anyone that accesses the network and Then So once you build up this database you can then At a later date scan the network Compare the two lists see what hosts are online which ones are offline and that kind of gives you an idea of Where you could go from there? And I'm still working on it Work in progress, but I will make it available at that URL and that's pretty much my part Hi, my name is Tiffany Rad and I'm an adjunct professor at the University of Southern Maine I teach in the computer science department and I teach a class where we analyze technical Aspects of computer programs hacking networks, and then we look at the legal aspects of it I'm also a licensed attorney in the state of Maine and We found that Having an ethics class required for all computer science undergraduates is pretty important because we do look at Network analysis tools for instance There's one part doesn't work. Yes Elliott's works fantastically, but then we look at other aspects of it Such as when we when Elliott came to me with us. This was his final project for my class We were looking through the code and I found out that it did something very interesting with reverse DNS So who do I call but Dan Kaminsky and I was talking to Dan and we talked a little bit about What the tool did and then we started thinking well the tool does this what kind of legal legal consequences or a relation can we make to To how USM is handling this University of Southern Maine and how other schools are doing it I got to say about Elliott Bradbury. That's fantastic is he's one of the best students I've had in the computer science department I come from Carnegie Mellon University where I got my BS and yeah, great Thank you and I'm very impressed with with Elliott in this class He is the result of a high school program that goes on in Maine I don't know if it still exists, but it did when he was in high school called a tiger team it's where they teach high school students how to hack and They they learn how to break stuff. They learn how to fix it. They learn the vulnerabilities and teaching Kids on that level Encouraged him to go into computer science in college and now he's if he's going to I already know He's gonna be a fantastic security infosec researcher someday. So I'm just saying he's a fantastic product of a high school program that he took through into into the college program All right, so how these host name host name equals real names are used at many universities University of Southern Maine is only one of about 65 that we found and One of the things that we started talking about is okay real names equals host names There's some privacy concerns. What are those and what types of federal law and privacy law affect those and why one of the Questions we had is why the universities some of them do this and so many do this We were quite surprised when Dan was running some look-ups how many we did find So University of Southern Maine is in no way the only school doing this. They are quite a few The first thing we thought about was FERPA FERPA is federal legislation that the the government requires universities to protect students personally identifying information and That means that There's information that students Such as in a directory by default most schools have it that if you sign up for school You go into like for instance a directory of who's at that school You can sign forms to opt out of that, but often that means your name won't get listed on Dean's list for instance so FERPA is something that we looked at with this and a lot of schools need to consider that because when People's real names are so say with the host names If you think you're sending email anonymously like from an account that you've set up some some other username You're probably not it is something that if you're doing Google searches It is possible for people to find out who you who you are If they look so this information is coming outside of the University The way that it is set up and we thought okay What other issues can there be with FERPA one of the the things is if it's considered to be directory information that the School is releasing and the student hasn't signed an opt-up at form That's not a violation of FERPA, but with this there is personally identifying information that is it's possible for people to Find out a lot more about students than just this is their name and they're on the internet Some of the legal issues we talked about is is Why why why do schools have this set up and one of my specialties in addition to computer laws intellectual property and There are certain types of legislation. I'm going to talk briefly about the digital learning copyright act and just privacy law Some of them use the we believe the digital learning copyright act is one of the reasons why Some schools do release this information when IT departments get takedown notices for instance Very quickly they have a short window when they need to address who did this and send them a legal notice that this this information must Must come down So I think that IT departments we do set this up for in relation to how to deal with some of this copyright law This is something that is one of the most interesting pieces that I found about this project when I read Elliot's final project is that What can be done with this information? If you're law school if you have a university at which you're studying and there is a law school there So there's something called attorney client confidentiality and in the clinic setting in the law school The lawyers work or professors who are licensed practitioners take clients into the program and you do real cases You go to court you make filings Privacy is really important if you're one of these universities that has 65 that we found we're not releasing those names, but It's not very difficult to do as Dan's going to talk about some reversing as lookups to find who is doing this But if you have confidentiality that needs to be preserved It's difficult to do that for instance some for an hypothetical would be in a law school clinic If for instance if if they're filing patents, it's very important when the patent system being first to file that You don't release any information about what the technology is if you're helping someone write the patent if you're in a clinic setting and The one of the attorneys working on the case has real name equals the host name And this is kind of going out to the internet someone could watch and potentially Find out what you're looking at and kind of piece together the technologies that make up the patent All right, one of the other issues we talked about is did they do this to combat anti-wealth combat piracy? We were looking at some cases with the help I was working with a little bit of information from Ray Beckerman He's done a lot of defense for students and has a great database about RIA cases and The question we had is is it possible for someone to determine who in like a person's full or person's full Name who is searching from music downloading music or movies? Where they're living and is it possible that you could get around warrants required or court orders for? For instance the RIA or any organization like that to figure out who's doing what without having to go through the traditional warrant requirement And serve or get a court order and talk to the IT department at the University about that We one of the things that We what I will tell you is Are we did not find a way that we could technically prove that? So when I say that it there might be a correlation and is it possible that the RIA could determine What's coming out of universities find out people's real names who's downloading what and then get the legal threat notices? Yes, it is possible. That's something that was one of the most interesting issues. We had do we know they do it? No, we do not Dan and I were saying the only way that we could really figure that out is if one of us goes You know for instance I would probably me me because I have an account on the universities at the University going down on like nine nine thousand Songs get on the RIA's radar and then determine did they follow proper warrant procedures to find out my real name and Neither of us wanted to do that Yeah, pretty risky, especially with a lot of the the way that They're pretty severe Fines now people are getting for this. There's it's illegal. I wasn't going to do that So we cannot find you're not going to get sued by the RIA for DEF CON. I thought you were hardcore Hey, Dan, you know, I think Elliot might be able to set up an account for you. Why don't we want to give it a try? Yeah, I think he's okay. I am too so we technically could not prove that The RIA the cases that I looked through probably a hundred cases in the RIA ones that were universities got legal take down Legal threats for students not necessarily take down notices and all I can say is there there are quite a few that have this set up and One thing that's kind of funny is if the RIA wasn't doing this before well Here we're telling you right now. It's it's possible to do and whether you like the RIA or not This is information that we wanted to talk about and for instance also this applies to law enforcement If there any There it is possible to get information about what people are doing on the network This is public information that's going out there. This isn't your private This isn't the question is is there an expectation of privacy if your name is just going out saying I am searching for Medicinal use as a marijuana. It's something like that Um, if there if there is someone under investigation, this possibly is a way that you can get around getting a search warrant It's just look what's already being out being put out there There is a privacy concern and Dan's going to talk a little bit more about that When you're like IRC chat rooms your real name host I mean your host it comes right up red does the diversity in us look up and there's your name Xbox live. He was mentioning does this too. So if you think you're at Nice University and your search is a private They they probably are not and we found that this applies to both students and faculty members I did a little bit of research some faculty members their information is also being broadcast out All right, are there influences under the digital learning copyright act with the RIA like I said We're not going to we can't prove that technically from what we've we've looked into But it would be disappointing to find that intellectual property law is affecting privacy in infosec I I got to say I believe it probably is and it's disappointing to see that some universities may have Set up under pressure Set up I'd say and where privacy isn't a concern because of Copyright law and vigilant enforcement of that and Lastly, I was about the DMCA. I mentioned already that there's a there's a takedown notice requirement IT departments are under a ton of pressure You got to take this down. You got to find out who this is or you lose your safe harbor provision And I'm working on a case right now where an ISP has lost a safe harbor provision Which means that they are going to be to held civilly liable for Whatever it is that the defendant in the case is so ISPs are under a great deal of stress under the takedown notice requirements, you don't want to lose the safe harbor provision unless you're challenging the DMCA and We talked about FERPA and one of the things that Dan might is probably going to talk about is Recommendations for what should schools do if you do care about if you are concerned about this issue Maybe students should be opt-in You know if you want your name to be your host name Let them opt into that instead of opt out and if schools are going to have opt out make the procedure Yeah, make the procedure very clear So that students and all students understand exactly technically what well technically explain the privacy implications of this and We don't want to say that there is a correlation, but It's it is We're well the RA could use this technology especially since we're talking about it And it's interesting after the school's been our well the school that we looked at has been our University of Southern Maine doing this for about ten years. And so if they are I hasn't been doing it already Well, maybe maybe they can now and we're not supporting that I'm just saying that that is it's possible with this information and sorry. That's the last slide, but I'm gonna I'm gonna have Dan Dan talk about what he did with Rourstianus look up in his results. Thank you all right, so Just in case anyone in the room is not actually familiar with the the database being exposed the data set being exposed Normal DNS traffic you have a name www.food.com you get an IP address <IP_ADDRESS> in reverse DNS You have the exact opposite you provide an IP address <IP_ADDRESS> and you get back a name Now usually this name is like the name of a computer and doesn't mean anything This case. No, that's the guy sitting behind the terminal Which is actually a fairly amusing thing to populate inside of DNS In terms of being someone who's trying to use or abuse this data you pretty much have two different channels The first channel is to just sweep the net sweep by sweep IP ranges and see who's where So you take a particular university that uses the system you take their IP range you just sweep through DNS reverse DNS and see what comes back and What are you finding out? Well, there are this list of students. They're on this campus Maybe you know who they're in you know north main, you know this area main or that area main It's interesting. It's it's not It's not as interesting as the second mode Second mode is where you host some service on the internet You host a web page and add network You you host or you're in part of a peer-to-peer network or you're playing Xbox live and in each of these situations The IP address of a university student is provided to individuals outside of the university that at that time the fact of what they are doing and Who they are can actually be linked so I Bring up Xbox 360 because it's the source of what I thought was probably the funniest change to internet security in the last few years Some guys figured out how to monetize botnets and And the way they figured out how to monetize botnets was they rented you had 12-year-old kids Renting botnets to each other so that that guy who was really pissing them off on Halo 3 Well, they just go ahead and flood them off the internet for a few hours I Thought that was kind of amusing and that that they get so they get even more amusing when you realize not only that but You kind of find out where the kid is and can you go look him up and send him a horse's head or something? You shot me too many times So, you know, this is a deaf con is traditionally considered a Security conference and here we are talking about a lot of privacy implications. What's up with that? Well, this is really interesting. I mean, this has come up This has come up professionally in a fair number of audits that I've done. It turns out security work and privacy work We kind of work together a lot Consider something like a phone home you have a piece of software that is is calling back to the mothership for something on The one hand. Well, this is a privacy implication Did you ask the user is it okay for you to go back? On the other hand, it's an awesome attack surface Which is very often quite as vulnerable So, you know, it is a very relatively common instance during an audit where phone homes are found If you're doing in a security context, you pop it over the fence to the privacy guys and say, hey does this meet all the the the legal requirements and And That's the other thing that that's one thing that's really different. There are legal requirements in privacy Insecurity it's pretty much us geeks that think something needs to be done You know, we're we're all raw raw. We want to see secure code. We want to see quality No one really knows what that means Well, no one knows what privacy means either but that doesn't stop a heck of a lot of law and a heck of a Lot of activism around I don't want anyone to know It turns out there's in security. There's a thinking there might be a hacker and we should stop them if there were a hacker In privacy, the assumption is always those bastard advertisers are selling my infos so it's a totally different presumption it's a totally different burden of proof and It does actually it does actually show up all over the place there are There's an interesting implication behind all of this Nobody is saying that use of the internet at a university should be fully anonymous In fact the whole point to take down provisions and other things is that you should actually with some work be able to get Back to the individual that That was behind the traffic We seem to be wanting to have a system which can be summarized as in order to extract someone's identity from the network It should be difficult, but not impossible Building systems where it's difficult, but not impossible for your personal information to be exposed is starting to prove difficult if not impossible itself either you are fully anonymous and can't be tracked down at all or There's a thousand different ways to get at your personal information This particular path is a ridiculously easy way of getting at your information And that's kind of where where the concerns come in There isn't a really Interesting implication of the spoofing work. This is what I thought was really cool Um, I don't know if you guys notice this people really believe whatever the hell it is the computer tells them It's you a lookup. It gives them answers as I have the answer. I'm going to go move on with my life What what endgrain found is that it's actually really easy to do Look around figure out what other people's MAC addresses are and then later on spoof those MAC addresses So you can actually assume their identity on the network now I think from his work when he was looking at this He found this specifically in terms of just looking at what was on your land and just saying okay Well, whoever has the IP <IP_ADDRESS> has the MAC address of this if I use the MAC address of this I will now have their name.  It's lawsuit bait that wouldn't have been possible before If you actually had a situation where it was difficult but not impossible to acquire the Authenticating information or the identifying information there would be a human involved There'd be an investigation and there'd actually be enough resources applied to figure out the difference between oh This is just a trivial spoof and wait a second. There's a there's something in more interesting going on The reality is a lot of people when they're looking at computer systems don't ask enough questions This is Defcon we ask questions so You know, I think I think I've gone on kind of long enough about all the the interesting Implications of security and privacy here As Tiffany said like I said, you know, this is a small thing now This could grow this could be something that that we turn around and lots of places are doing it just to stop the flood of Requests if it's you know what we're getting a thousand takedown requests an hour Why don't we just publish all the information and now people don't need to ask for it? That is a model it could come it would not actually be a good thing for the future of the internet The reality is and this is what all the privacy guys have figured out perhaps long before the rest of us have If you can't use the internet if you can't use a resource without an implication that no one's watching over your shoulder You just won't and we won't end up with a particularly free society So that's pretty much what I've got on this. I have one final thought to leave you with How many of you guys are still in school?  It's been done a thousand times before get a pat on the back by a teacher Who's done the same review over and over and over again or? You could end up dragging your teacher out to Def Con and showing off what you done


Have you ever struggled to find the perfect footage to tell your story? Sometimes it's pretty hard to put your thoughts down into words and carefully craft the right keywords into the search bar only to get irrelevant results.  Sometimes you're not even sure what's the right shot that you need and you don't even know where to start. But we'll never have to go through that again because there's now a better way to find high quality footage. Hey, it's Herman here again on Artlist introducing a new tool we've developed that truly empowers you as a creator. Meet Artlist, new AI-powered search engine. Instead of painfully guessing keywords, Artlist's AI-powered search engine lets you search the way you think. It's the most advanced video search engine out there and understands natural human language to get you incredibly accurate results. Alright, let's play out a scenario we've all been through. Maybe you're working on an ad and your producer or your client wants you to include a really specific shot in the video that you are working on. They say they want to see a shot of a man riding a motorbike in the middle of a desert during sunset. So I think they meant one man and desert instead of a motorbike on an ice cream sundae. But you know what? Let's just copy and paste their message into the search bar and see what it spits out. Boom! As you can see, Artlist's AI-powered search engine understands what you mean even with typos or plurals and it helps you find what you need with pinpoint accuracy. You can even find specific locations. So if you want to include an establishing shot of Fiji for example, your one search away from finding the amazing shot that you were looking for. The AI-powered search engine also gives you accurate results if you have a specific composition or lighting in mind. So if I want a close-up of a woman in red lighting, that is exactly what I get. Remember what I said about it being tough to put my thoughts down into words? Now sometimes I have the vision in my head but it's really hard to think about how to condense it into keywords and it really slows down my creative process. But if I just naturally type what I feel or imagine for example a happy romantic scene of a couple dancing in the city, boom! Again, that's what we get and we can even go broader. So let's say I don't have a specific scene in my mind and I only know that I want to include an epic moment in the middle of my video. With Artlist's AI-powered search engine, I can simply search for it and get inspired. I can get my thoughts down faster than ever and get high quality results that are even better than what I had in my head. With the rise of AI, many creators are afraid of what it can mean for human imagination and creativity but this is such a great example of how it can be such a powerful tool that assists our creative process. Check out our blog post if you want to know how our AI-powered search engine works. Artlist's AI-powered search engine lets you find exactly the footage you need faster than ever. Don't take my word for it. Check out how easy it is to use and see why Artlist is how you make videos today. Also don't forget to subscribe to the Artlist channel if you want to stay up to date and learn how to make your best videos. Otherwise, I'll see you in the next one.


The brain is possible. Listen, let's talk about the gold jean. Yes, is there a gold jean? Because I feel, no matter how hard you work, right, no matter how much time you put in the gym, no matter how much time you put in the studio, no matter how much time you put in the stage, if you're not a goat, you just won't be a goat. And I told Kevin Love, I said, well, Kev, what is LeBron doing that you're not doing? If it's just hard work, because Kev, if you're six foot 10, 230 pound, you can average 20 and 10, I used to at one point. So what is LeBron doing that you're not doing that he's LeBron and you're Kevin Love? Right, what did he say? I don't remember. I was just Kevin Love, this was a different Kevin. When you were saying Kevin, I was like, who? Well, Kevin Hart, what Kevin Hart thinks is with work ethic, anybody can be a goat. I don't think so. No, I do think there's a chosen few. I think there's a chosen few. I think there's people that, if you work hard enough, you can get to a certain level, but there's only like a certain amount of people that are just the chosen. I think both those things are kind of genetic and a certain way. There's a makeup mentally of people who have the goat ability that is, I don't care, I want greatness at all costs. I don't need personal relationships, I don't need friends, I don't need none of this. I just need to work and be great. I think Kobe had that, I think MJ had that. They had the ability, but they also got that mentality.  I think there's a small part of sociopath in you if you need to be great.  Michael Jordan, we say, oh man, he'll run over his mother for a point, but no, this motherfucker really will. And he probably has. Kobe, same guy. LeBron, I think he has the same type of sociopathism in him, but it just comes off a little bit more charismatic.  I think LeBron's just more cerebral with his. That's what Kevin Love was saying. And I mean, I think, because the conversation started with me talking to Grant, and I said it with me, right? And with me talking to Grant, and I said, because Grant was talking about Tom Brady, and I was like, I said, can you really learn something from people like Tom Brady and LeBron? And the reason I said that is because they can push you, but they're pushing you to try to be as great as them. But can you really be?  He's got 42 years old. He just want to sue Bolash. You're not going to see that again in this lifetime, probably.  I think that's the competitive advantage if you got the gene. Like let's say it's a gene. The gene is that you're willing to sacrifice more than anybody else. And I think if you look at any goat, they've sacrificed more than anybody around them. And when you're willing to sacrifice, you stay in the gym. When you're willing to sacrifice, you study harder. When you're willing to sacrifice, you do what Tom Brady does. You find every competitive advantage you do in a game. I remember, I think you even brought this up, Akash, like Kobe was studying shark movements. Yes, because he couldn't guard Alan Iverson. Alan Iverson, he said he kind of moves like a shark out there. So he started studying shark movements to get some sort of competitive advantage playing D against Alan Iverson. Now that's the psychotic makeup, right? But that's what you need to have. That's what it takes.   Like they said Peyton Manning would go through every single play at the end of every year, every single play that he did. Most people don't want to do that. Most people not going to listen to every set of their standup. Most people not going to listen to every interview.  Most people want to hang out with their boys. What about the person who does all of that but they still not a goat? You got to have both of that. They're just good. So here's the thing.  I don't think that people have that kind of work ethic if it's not matched with ability. And I think that's where you, I don't think there's a guy who works as hard as Kobe but he's just kind of like okay and he plays at the YMCA. I think eventually you give up because even if you're, because even the goat is of goats needs positive reinforcement. You got to see some sort of tangible results. You got to see results.   And it was like, okay, like I have a superior skill to these people. Let me hold it. Yeah, like you're not even, like some people aren't even in that club of like talent where you can even think to be like, okay, if I put in the work, if I do everything humanly possible I can achieve this level. And some people still don't think LeBron's really achieved that level. Maybe because he thinks a little differently.  I mean, I think it's goat tears though. Right? Like I said on this podcast before I think it's great. It's kings and it's gods. You know what I'm saying? I think LeBron is a king. Yeah. You know? What did Kevin Love say about him? He said it's mentality. He said it's all mental. He said he said LeBron would lock in in a way that he just, that nobody else could. I'll put LeBron in a different type of like goat category though because with him, you can tell that his interests kind of supersede sport. You know what I'm saying?  Don't matter what they call it though baby. I mean, but on the court some people when the game's over the game's gonna end for everybody. Even this people in this room right now that really don't remember Michael Jordan like that. You just say, oh yeah, he's a goat but like you don't remember seeing him like that. Ooh. That's a ton of people.  He's just a meme to a lot of people. He's just a guy with the sneakers. By the way, that's a goat meme though. It is. Come on now. That's a goat meme. But to a lot of people like they don't even.  Yes. On court attributes all fade away. It don't matter who you are. It don't matter where you going, where you going, what you play.  When we talking about basketball I agree with you LeBron James is a God outside of that court. Yeah. On the court too. But when you're comparing him to other gods there's other gods that are scrapped. But what I'm saying is I think LeBron the way he wants to achieve his goat status is trying to achieve all that at once. Cause Kobe was on the court goat but he wasn't that. We're not talking about like just being elite in one field. On that court baby. On that football field. We're just talking about like the specific like. Comics.  If you want to talk about a guy who like revolutionized business and motherfuckers a goat. But that's what I'm saying though. Just because he's a basketball player.  No not even just philanthropy.  We talking about getting the ball in the basket. But that's the point of the goat game.  The point of the goat mentality as we are defining it here is I want to be the greatest at this thing. Thing. One thing. Sing a tune. Cause LeBron can't be the greatest human ever. He's more well rounded than Jordan but he's not the goat human. Hey Jesus. You can't get close to Jesus. You know what I mean?


Hello, everyone. In this video, we'll be discussing about shell scripting parameters. So here are the learning outcomes. By the end of this session, students will be able to demonstrate the use of shell script parameters. So this is the basic outline of this video. First, we'll be discussing about what are variables, what we have seen in the previous video. And then we'll be using the same variables in the form of parameters or so-called arguments in a shell scripting. So here it's a good point to recall what do we actually mean by an argument in a C programming language or in general any programming language. So you can pause the video for a while and think on what an argument is in a general programming perspective. So basically, as per the definition, an argument in a programming language is nothing but a value that is passed between functions or maybe subroutines. So as to enable your program to accept some sort of data in the new process of execution. And generally, if you observe these parameters are independent variables and it may contain some sort of data codes or maybe some sort of information, which is going to be beneficial for the upcoming program sequence to properly execute it as per the desired process. And generally, a customized name which is given to this particular process of passing some data or code in between subroutines or functions is basically known as a parameter. So let's now go through some of the aspects which are available in shell scripting. So if you look properly, we have a small table available on the screen here that is parameter versus its corresponding function. So the first parameter that is we have $1 to $9. So this $ by default indicates a variable in shell scripting like what we have seen in the previous video. So basically, we are capable to provide totally nine arguments starting from one through nine. So these $1 to $9, if you mention in your shell scripting execution command, then they actually mean or they actually represent the position of the parameter. For instance, let us say you are executing a simple C program like say addition.c in our terminal and you want to pass two variables in the form of an argument which are supposed to be added in your program. So what I'll do, I'll simply take a terminal and I will issue a command called addition.c probably with the help of some compiler being prefixed to like GCC or some other programming compiler. And then I'll pass two variables like for example, say GCC and then I'll type the file name addition.c and then I'll put a space and then I'll be passing two more parameters that is 10 and 20. So what I'm expecting, expecting the end of the execution of this particular program by hitting this particular command in the terminal, it will be giving me the addition of 10 and 20 which I have passed in the form of an argument. So 10 plus 20 is going to be 30 is what I'm expecting which is to be displayed on the terminal. So similarly, I can pass multiple parameters like for instance, I'm typing the same command again like GCC, some file name.c and then I'm passing integers from 1 to 9 like 1 space, 2 space and so on till 9. Then I'm expecting the addition of or the sum of overall integers 1 to 9 and I'm expecting the sum of 1 through 9 to be displayed on my screen. So the things will be more clear when we get into the demonstration. In the meanwhile, just remember that if you put some braces and if the number of the parameter exceeds above 9, then whatever variables that you pass while executing or issuing the shell command, they are actually considered as positional parameters for arguments after 9. So what is the basic difference between the arguments being passed from position 1 to 9 and 10 to n. So whenever you write an argument whose count is less than 9 or equal to 9, then that actually represent positional parameter for argument 1 to 9 and represent positional parameter for arguments after 9. So whenever you discuss about the parameters and if you are specifically mentioning it from 1 to 9, then it actually represents the positional parameter for the argument in the given command. Similarly, the only difference between these two is that here you need to mention the bracket. That is whenever you have any command and if you are trying to pass some sort of parameters which are less than or equal to 9, then in those conditions you may say that you need not to put any braces here as we need to put a brace for all those numbers which are double digit. So it is a simple method of remembering these things. So whenever you have more than 9 number of parameters in a given shell command, then you need to specifically put these curly braces along with the dollar symbol. Similarly, dollar 0 is a kind of a mechanism which actually displays the file name itself. So as we were discussing about an example of executing a C program through terminal, I said GCC filename.c. So to this compiler command called GCC, the first filename itself is going to be the 0th command. So this is how the things actually work in the back end. That is when we have a parameter mentioned like dollar 0, it holds nothing but this argument is nothing but the filename itself. Similarly, we have upcoming commands. So we will be first of all going through the demonstration of all these parameters or a few of these parameters. So let us get into the demonstration. So I have already opened a terminal and as you can see I have logged in with a user called root 1 and I am not an admin. So it is always a good what we call a method. It's always a good mechanism to do the things being an admin or having root privilege. So as usual, we are going to first of all log in as an admin and for doing this, I have simply typed the command called su and then I have hit the root or the admin password. Now as you can see, I am root here. Now we'll write a couple of things. I would like to use a compiler or an editor for editing the shell script called this. And let us call it parameter.sh. So this is a simple editor called nano where we can type the shell commands directly. And don't forget to put the shebang in this. That is, we are going to use this one. This is by default the basic first line. Now what I want to do here is I just want to, so as you can see, I am simply trying to print a statement called the name of the script is, so I am going to simply type $0. So $0 is nothing but the name of the file itself. So what I'm expecting whenever I execute this particular command, I should be able to see this para.sh as an output. So let us quickly save it run. So we need not to forget this general thing where we can check. Okay, so we have this para.sh as an executable now. Now I'll simply execute this. Okay, as you're able to see the name of the script is para.sh. So why am I getting this as an output? I'm getting this as an output because we have mentioned $0 as an argument which I'm passing to this command called echo. Similarly, we can add one more statement. I would like to add a line gap in between both the statements for better readability of the code always and it's a good practice and a convention whenever you program. Okay, next what we have is I'm going to echo. So the first argument is $1. So we'll go for three commands. Now let us save this and check what it prints. We need not to again convert the mode and all. I'm going to just run it. Okay, so as you are able to see, I have executed this para.sh and as an output what I'm getting, I'm getting the name of the script is dot slash para.sh. Okay, that's fine. The first argument is nothing. Second is nothing. Third is nothing. Okay, so I'll quickly execute this again, but this time I'm going to execute with some sort of parameters. That is the first number is going to be the first argument is 10. Second argument is 20 and the third argument is 30. And let me pass the fourth argument as well, which we haven't taken care of in the program. Okay, so as you're able to see, it is displaying the name of the program very much correctly. The first argument, second argument, third arguments are printed correctly. But the fourth argument which we have used in our command of execution of the parameter is not considered. It's a reason because we haven't mentioned anything about what is to be done with the fourth parameter in our program. Here are the references used.


Hey everybody, this is Christian Buckley doing another MVP buzz chat and I'm talking today with Drago. Hello. Hi, how are you doing? I'm doing well. How are things over there? Well, quite great. It's by me, it's in the evening, but you, it's kind of morning and it's sunny, 30 degrees Celsius. Switzerland's hot, so we have nothing to do. I have no idea what that translates to, but okay. It's pretty warm. It feels like summer now, though it's already the autumn, so from this point everything is fine. Yeah, that's what we're, we're at that, I call it the, you know, it's the late summer, so it's still like we might have another heat wave where it's Fahrenheit, it's still over a hundred, you know, it might do that, you know, one more time, but you start to see a few more showers, you start to see the leaves dropping off, so it's moving towards fall, which I think most people fall is their favorites. And I love fall. I love seeing the colors. You do? Okay. Yeah. Well, by us, I mean, I'm living now since 15 years in the city of Zurich, but I'm originally more from the eastern part of Switzerland, so the region I'm coming from is more known for skiing and all this, and Zurich is actually in the fall, not so extremely nice because it's quite a foggy, but since it's still so hot actually, it's fine, I'm enjoying it at the moment quite well. Yeah. Yes. Have you ever been over to Utah? Have you ever skied here? Well, no, I didn't. I have here my own skiing areas like many of them, and we are really known for that, but if I'm 100% honest, I even prefer more to go for ice skating and playing ice up here than for skiing or snowboarding. Well, I'm not a huge skier. I love it when I can go, but yeah, I just, I didn't know that if you knew that, Utah is known for its powder for its skiing and it's, one thing I'll say that is fantastic about for those coming to Utah, here I am, I'm on the Utah Transportation Board doing advertising for Utah, is the fact that you can stay at a hotel in downtown Salt Lake City and within 45 minutes, you can grab a city bus and be dropped off on a slope. It is super efficient, like we have a word winning bus system here, which is a big deal in the US to have a reliable bus transportation, mass transit here. But the fact that they serve the local ski location, so it's so easy to get up to the ski resorts, whether you're going up to around the back of the mountains to Park City or to the front of the mountains with the Cottonwood canyons. It's fantastic. But anyway, that's not what we're here to talk about. Not really.  You've already said where you are. What do you do? Well, regarding to my boss, I don't do much. No, no, no joke. Yes, my name is Drago. I'm a Swiss MVP in my fifth year now. So I'm compared to you and still a junior in this regard. You have like how many years? 12 now. Yeah. Technically, it would have been 12 and a half when they changed the timing of the renewals, but. Yeah, right. Right. That was this shift. Yeah. I'm originally coming from, if you talk about the topic, about messaging. And I say messaging like I was doing like Unix mail, all these things. And then my first serious contact to Microsoft Technologies was Exchange 2003. I skipped 2007 because it was not, okay, I will not use the word now. I didn't like it much. Let's say like this. Yeah. And then really serious. It got with Exchange 2010. And I got to a company and I was responsible for an exchange environment with more than 200,000 mailboxes, which was quite a bit for our tiny country. And yeah, and this was also the time slowly I was getting more and more to read blog articles because that was like deep PowerShell stuff with Exchange 2010, especially when you had the hosted Exchange version, there was no management GUI. So I started reading and quite quick, I found Paul Canningham and his blog. There was Exchange Pro, Exchange Online Pro, something like this. It was named now it's practical, but it's not his anymore. And I liked how he was writing the articles and it helped me a lot in the past. And then I, on one day I decided when my know-how was deep enough, I want to do the same because without people like you or like Paul, it wouldn't be possible to do things. And I think sharing know-how is like a key point why we have such a great life actually or area to work in. And yeah, then I just started writing and more and more and more and more. And it was actually also as my main topic. Then I had to make some certifications. So there was maybe you remember, there was still the MCSA Office 365. I did this because yeah, I thought that's the way to go. I made some Skype for business stuff. But then it was like always on Exchange. Then Microsoft announced the release of Microsoft Teams. And you know how it is, you start switching slowly more. So I would say in the last few years, especially since 2018, I would say I got deeper and deeper or let's say 2019 shortly before COVID, I started really to go deep in teams. And yeah, that's like my super main topics are that Microsoft Teams exchange. And I do also some data classification stuff and all those things. My company where I'm working for, I work as a currently as a principal system engineer and cloud solution architect. So that means I make the onboarding progress for new customers to the Microsoft cloud. And I am here to fix the problems other engineers has which cannot find the solution. Yeah, I have some knowledge about it. Then we have like a good network where we can also ask some questions. I dropped the question and yeah, this is like my daily bread I'm doing. That's really good. You know, it's actually your approach into the teams, your background is a little bit unique for teams, people for MVPs in the world. Because like, so I came from the SharePoint side of things. Of course, a lot of my background back in the 90s was around social collaboration technology as well. So I had that that experience coming into the collaboration space. But SharePoint, I was a SharePoint MVP. And then one of the first that made the move over to Office 365 MVP for the brief, like the one year, like one of them says Office 365 MVP up there. One or two years of that before the M365 apps and services. But either either people came from the SharePoint side into teams or they came from the unified communication side. So more of the telephony, you know, the side of things. And so it's rare to see somebody that comes from the messaging side, the email side into teams. I agree, but as I said, I had to do, I mean, I loved to do or I love still to be messaging stuff. But I, as I said, just to have one leg is not enough to walk. So I started my second one and that's why I went to Skype for business. But never, I'm a left footer, how to say, and my left foot was exchange and the right one was Skype for business. But I would never say that there was a super pro in Skype for business. And that somehow it might make this way, you know, and I started using teams. And I was talking to the company was also saying like, hey, we have to go to this new tool for Microsoft and they thought, no, we don't need that. We have Skype for business. And I said, yeah, but I mean, we know all the story of what happened to Skype for business where teams went, of course, I don't say nothing good about COVID, but the only good thing on COVID was that teams got a huge boost. Yeah. I mean, if we can't say something good about this pandemic and the teams got good, got the great product. Yeah, for me, that's fine. And I'm super happy with that. I'm just two major topics in. And yeah, I know I'm a bit special, maybe. Well, you know, it's interesting to you look at one of the reasons why teams has even post COVID has continued to grow and continue to do well. And and part of that is because of the integration with the integrations with Outlook, the integrations with, well, Yammer got folded in. But I think what helped now, Viva, engage is also the integration with teams and the communication between those three applications. So the messaging side of it. Now, I think there's plenty of opportunity. It's a nice way of putting it. There's plenty of opportunity for Microsoft to go when they're improve on the messaging layer between the various applications. I think that there are still some disconnected pieces. I'm also my background is on the project management side is on that, you know, that the the project based task based management activities. I think that's the other huge opportunity for Microsoft to fix. So between messaging and task management, I think you've got something for Microsoft to focus on for the next decade to improve on what they've done. My third wish list item is that they would get the webinar piece done right because it's still messed up. But yeah, let's say teams is OK. There will be some some changes because there will be a new subscription from Microsoft's where teams will be taken out from the e-plans as far as I heard. But I think teams. I don't like much this premium stuff for basic things. Let's call it like this. Yeah, let's. Yeah, but that's that's that's a bit of another story. I think the webinar stuff. Yeah, you're right. There is still a lot of potential of webinars. I think they should make like maybe the current version of webinar a basic function and maybe if they develop more features for webinar, they could use it as a premium feature, you know? Yeah, on the premium features, you're right. I mean, look, I understand Microsoft is trying to figure out new revenue streams. How do they continue growing and looking at that? But yeah, but I agree. It's I mean, look, long term Microsoft's pattern is that they will add things to premium. There's the initial pain up front and then as even more advanced features come later on than what were some of those premium kind of find their way down into the baseline services. Of course, with that, prices rarely remain the same. They'll they'll go up a bit anyway. So you're you're paying for it additionally anyway. But yeah, I mean, this is Microsoft's in that with with the premium features, the difficulty is that when they go out and they get people so excited about, look at you can do. Here's the art of what's possible. They rarely talk about, well, what you actually need to go license to have in place pay for to make that demo even possible. I agree. Absolutely. So that can be a bit of a sticker shock for people. Yeah, it's also like just also when you think there's or additional licenses for teams to go for PST and calling. So if they stay like this, but let's go back like, I mean, I also see like how the world changed a bit since we have the smartphones. People are start writing more messages, not SMS messages. And that's why I also everyone tries to reduce the amount of emails. And that's why the chat possibility from teams is is a great thing. I think also the most people started or start using teams because of the chat functionality and then, of course, the collaboration part, like we share pressure online and all this. And I think that's that's also something how how people start changing the way of work, because it's easy to drop a short chat than to write an email. Right, as it's less formal, let's say like this. Well, you know, it's it's funny that, you know, there was the whole there was the movement a few years back where with with tablets and everybody saying, oh, we're going to move away from using desktops, we're just going to drop off at computer sales. We're going down. Everybody was moving towards their mobile devices and tablets and those things. No, what actually happened is that I don't know what our PC sales are. I think it kind of bumped back up during covid. People were buying more robust systems. So I don't know what that actually that market looks like. What happened is that most people like myself, I have my home workstation. I actually have two. I've got an even more powerful workstation sitting behind me than the primary that I use, plus I have my laptop, plus I have, you know, tablets, plus I have my my phone. It's a similar thing with messaging. It's like, yes, the volume of email has just decreased yet. I've not. I'm like, I'm still using email every day all day long. It's just more focused yet. I'm also doing things over SMS and various messaging platforms and through, you know, so much through teams. And I do some community stuff through non-Microsoft community stuff that's through Slack. Like I have all of these tools that are up and running all day long. So what's happened is that I'm not it's not that I'm emailing less because the volume of communications has gone way up. Agreed. But if you hit me an email and you hit me a chance, the first answer we'll get by chance. That's what I mean. Right. This was sad. I explained to me, though. I mean, I'm sure we all have this where I have those those friends where people that I work with or or, you know, I guess, friends, the acquaintances within the community and can't reach them by email, can't get them on their phone to return a text message. And yet if I send them a message via Facebook Messenger, they respond like that. I mean, we'll be linked in. But that's a more yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's I think it's the point of being formal.  You maybe have a small screen which shows you the teams chat stuff. And you just say, yes, no, maybe whatever you need to answer quickly. And when I read emails, I really sit down. OK, and now we're going to look on my emails or when one email come I know I going to spend now some time on my mailbox to to read all the emails which came maybe in the last hour and last two hours or over lunchtime or something.  But a chat you answer just in between two tasks. Let's call it this, you know, so and that's I think more and more people doing like that. And I feel also especially I'm still in the home office. I'm maybe once in a month in the office, maybe every second month because I'm better equipped at home. You said you have two workstations and all this. I have the same here. I'm working in six, twenty seven inch screens at home. OK, I serve sometimes the most. That's true. But I'm better equipped at home than in the office. And the rest of my team where I'm working with the same and we wouldn't have such a great communication or collaboration between each other if we wouldn't have a teams, you know, if it would just be email and phone that wouldn't be working out like it's just at the moment. And I'm sure it has how people do the same. You know, yeah, I'm exactly the same way. In fact, one of the frustrating things that is that travel has started to open up again and being on the road and trying to get work done from that one little laptop screen, it's frustrating. Yeah, impossible. Yeah, I find it very difficult to to get other work done other than check email, check calendars and do some teams, meetings and chats. It's difficult to get work done if I don't have my two giant monitors. I've got the two extra wide with about one hundred and fifty tabs open into different things, but same. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, but that's the way to work. I mean, when my wife comes to my home office still, I mean, I have this set up already for quite some time, but still she's just thinking that I'm for sure not a normal person and that there is no one so crazy like I am. And I just tell her, well, maybe. But that's our world. I mean, that's IP and it works for us. Well, it's interesting to look at the way that, you know, the way that people have worked and I think that, you know, studies will be done years from now, looking back over, you know, the change that's happened in the way that teams work together, how we communicate, the how comfortable we have become. I often use the the experience. I tell the story about how so years, years ago as living in Northern California, I commuted for a year on a motorcycle. So I bought a bike.  And so it was an easy commute, only a couple of freeway exits down. So not too bad. And about it was almost a year into riding my bike. And someone did me a favor. It was parked at night and somebody hit my bike and crushed it. And and so the next day I borrowed my wife's car. I had to go buy a vehicle. I bought a car instead of a motorcycle. But what happened? Because I went through the training, got the license and commuted. I realized how. People, how many people ignore motorcycle riders? And so I became much more motorcycle aware because I was a rider. And that's something that stuck with me. Like I see them, I give them plenty of room now. Like I've adjusted myself. I liken that to this shared COVID experience where prior to COVID, when you tried to do things digital, people, some people were like, no, we have to be in person. Clients would be like, no, you've got to fly out. You've got to be here for this. And no, we want to have this training done in person, kind of all those things. It helped people become more aware of that, though, you know, actually we can do this. We don't have to be there for the all of these pieces. Now, I'm a huge proponent of being in person of face to face. You cannot substitute face to face for relationship building, for example. However, there's so much more that you can get done. You can be so much more efficient by being remote and through the various tools. Totally agreed. I mean, this call now wouldn't happen if we wouldn't have the tools. I mean, you're in the US. I'm in the center. Well, COVID would have still happened, but we would have struggled a lot more. Yeah, but also when I have like when I go to customers and we start talking about, OK, they are customer, what you need, what you want and what can we do for you? And these are meetings that have to happen face to face. You have to feel you have to be there. You have to be able to look the people in the eyes, not in the camera. You have to have a classical whiteboard where you can really get dirty hands. Let's call it like this. This is still really important. It's I also like to seem like I really like my coworkers actually. But it's no question about that. We just also another point that we saw often at home. We're making more team events like we go for people, we go for something. That's great. But another side is like I wake up in the morning. I take my shower, I take my coffee and I switch on the computer and I start work. So that means I can sleep a little bit longer. I'm less stressed than I have no traffic jam. When I go to the office, I stand up earlier. I have my traffic jam. I go to the office, I meet people, I talk to people in the first time a switch on the computer is like two hours late. Is that if I would do it when I would work from home and especially in the evening, when you're tired, I need nothing less than some traffic jam.  And so from this point, we got the higher level of of quality life, I would say. But it's also the trust about responsibilities and loyalty about company that you really work when you have to work. Yeah. And this is, I mean, take example, Zoom. Zoom is just like they told to the employer that they have to come back to the office. It's a bit strange because it's Zoom. But you know, that's that's like by some it works, but some it doesn't work. So we also have like some co-workers from my team, from other teams. They have to go to the office because it didn't work out with them working remotely. You know, they were not responsive. But it forced organizations to kind of rethink, relook at how they work together. I'm with you. I think I think that the right model is the hybrid model for for working teams. Having said that, I'm the only employee with my company in the US right now. And so everything is online.  So yeah, we recognize that there still need to be those times when we get together, where we see each other and build those relationships to be successful in what we do virtually. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, hybrid, that's the way to go. And we see the Microsoft is also forcing this way, which is a really good thing. And I'm pointing again on the topic from events. The last thing I do is hybrids. They still have to do some learnings from it. But that's being kind. Yes, you're being very kind with your words there. You know, we are very neutral, you know. Now, the point is like, but if I say, OK, I don't know, how was the experience for the people from the MVP Summit who were not in Redmond? But I heard more good things than I heard about the Ignite, which was just like three, four months earlier. So I think that's the way Microsoft goes. And it's also another benefit. I mean, OK, you are located in the US. You definitely have no travel issues from the how to say from the government side. But if you're located in, let's say, in some country, which has, which is too expensive to travel to the US or which you cannot get a visa to the US, you cannot join these events, although maybe you are a choreography in your topic. And if you have these hybrid events, you still are able to to join these conferences. OK, the networking is, of course, still easier to do when you're on site. But at least you have the possibility and the opportunity to join events. I agree with the inclusiveness part of that. And to have from accessibility standpoint for people that have a difficult time with in person inclusiveness, the ability for people that don't aren't able to do the travel that are still able to get something out of that. And for Microsoft to be able to still get that message out. I might personal my frustration with the new model of the marquee Microsoft events is that what they've done, though, is that they've they have missed the mark and that they don't understand that the primary benefits of those marquee events are the interactions, the relationships that you build from people around the world. And I think that if they what they should do is they should go back to the old model of it as big as it was and allow those people as many people that want to be there physically and have the hybrid components so that they can get the rest of the people there so that you're not removing the benefits of being there in person because my view is that there is very little to zero value in being at ignite or inspire or build in person like it's just gone. They've taken away any value to being there. And instead, sorry, I don't mean to like use this to soapbox on this and Microsoft has heard my feedback on this point. But I think that you've for as a as a former business owner as an entrepreneur working for an ISV for a startup, the value for us was me. All the meetings was not the sessions was the meetings. It was the face-to-face relationships. And that's God. Long with each other. And it's also for me like my boss asked me, do I want to go to ignite this year? I said, no, because the night will be two days in Seattle. So I will be in the same time in the plane like I will be on the night. This makes definitely no sense for so many reasons. And and I remember it is the last real ignite. Let's call it like this was in Orlando 2019. Yeah, that was great. It was great. It was fantastic. Yeah. I met so many people and it's I also see. So I know, OK, I'm going to do something else. But between the sessions or in the evening, you go for a dinner with other MPs or with other people you maybe just know during the year from from the community or from online stuff. But seeing these people talking to these people. Ah, OK, he's not 180. He's 190 tall, you know, like, OK, it's again metric system. Sorry. Yeah. But, you know, like all those things, they are really important. That's why I absolutely agree. So I would say, like, in person for all these benefits, hybrid for the other benefits for people can which cannot travel. That would be like the perfect way to go. But I agree, it has to be at least four or five days. Yeah, agreed, agreed. Well, I really appreciate your time today. And I always like to like to ask for people that want to find you, reach out to you, what are the best ways for people to connect with you? Where are you most active in the social realm? Well, the very most active I'm actually in LinkedIn. So just search for my name and you will find me and also on Twitter. And I guess you will post my my link there. Of course, they'll have all that, of course, up in the up in YouTube, out in the blog as well. And when this goes live, so we'll drive was really great meeting you. And hopefully we'll see each other at the MVP Summit this next year. Hope really. Let's see what kind of I mean, you know what people say, we make a plan and God laughs about it. But yeah, let's hope that we see us on the MVP Summit again. You were there too last year. Yes, yeah, this year. Yeah, yeah. So in one session. And yeah, let's hope and thank you for having me on your podcast. And hope to see you soon.