So, what did you do when you were five years old? What did you do? So most children by the age of five have developed their own personality by then. And when inside it, my company officially became five years old last year, it was time for us to also discover our own identity. So we sat together with the entire team, which was about 50 people at that time. And then we brainstormed with the team on issues like, what really defined us? What were the day-to-day practical examples within the company, which were typically inside it? And what did we expect from new people joining the team? So the team held a few sessions, apart from me, just with the entire team together. And they came up with a list of five core values, the five things which really defined the company. And guess what? This list was exactly as I imagined it would be. This list was exactly as I hoped it would be. And this list of core values was exactly what also defined me as a founder and CEO of the company. So apparently, my entire team had developed and discovered the same core values as I had in running the company. So for today, I want to tell you my story. I want to tell you the story of inside it along the lines of two of these core values. But before I kickstart, let me get you guys in the mood on my company inside it by showing you a quick video. The challenging part of my job is really finding how a community can deliver value to a specific company or business. What I really like about my job is not only working with customers, but also with the teams internally. Well, I really like all the people that work at inside it. We really have enthusiastic, ambitious, hardworking people here, and it's really great environment to work in. What I really like about inside it is that there's a lot of great people, there's a big diversity, and that you always get to be yourself. What I most like of my job is working with very diverse customers. So different company cultures, for example. And besides that, the very dynamic environment inside it is, so there's never a dull moment. The most challenging and actually also the most fun to do is get all the different ideas from the different team in that project converging to an awesome product. Our big, hairy, audacious goal is that in 2025, inside it communities are an essential part of 1000 brands worldwide. In 10 years from now, inside it will be a global leader in community engagement, with an even greater platform than today. The sales team will grow tin-fold over the next two to three years, primarily through international expansion. And one of our core values is do it together, and we really want to bring on board people who embody that spirit. Inside it is growing, so the implementation team needs to expand. Well, we're looking for roughly double the size of our development team within a year. We are looking for eight players, the top 10%. Personally for me, an eight player is someone that re-changes the game. We are people that love to win, and really like working together. I'm looking forward to welcoming you on this team. I'm happy to welcome you to our team. We will be proud to be your guest on our team. We need to provide an opportunity to join inside it. I'm looking forward to welcoming you on this team. I'm looking forward to welcoming you on this team. Translations by YouTube, by the way. So, one of the first core values is about ownership makes it happen. I was actually the first person from my family to go to university. So it was not common to do that. And already in the first month of being here, I broke my knee. I had to go to surgery and I couldn't walk for three or four months. So I couldn't attend any colleges. I was sitting at home and after a week of watching television, I got kind of bored. So I turned to the computer and learned about how other people were creating websites, which later turned out to be instrumental in my professional career. After that, when I got back on my feet, I moved to Tilburg to a student's house. Well, actually, it was not really a student's house. It was above a shelter for homeless people and former drug addicts. And there weren't even other students living in that house, by the way. I really felt a bit alone. I was a shy boy, hardly had any friends. And my girlfriend, which I had from high school, broke up with me. So things were not really looking very good for me at that stage. Then I decided it needed to change. I needed to make something happen and decided to join Study Association Top Down, which I heard no longer exists, but this proved out to be one of my best decisions ever. I learned about organizing conferences. I actually organized a big conference also in Tilburg. I made lots of friends. I partied a lot and really understood the value of being a student here in Tilburg. Apart from that, I also became the first chairman of the Academic Business Club, which is the Student Association for Entrepreneurs. There was basically nothing when we started, only a few guys who were discussing each other's business plan on a Monday evening here in Building B. And we turned that association to a thriving part of the university with weekly monthly events, a big symposium, and we really became a business partner for the university on the topic of entrepreneurship. And we also helped with starting the incubator here at the university. So making these choices, my life was immediately completely different. Also in my professional career, a lot of stuff happened. I am now currently CEO of Insighted, co-founded the company six years ago. But there was basically nothing when I started. There were no employees, no revenue, there was no product. There was only an ID, which was in my mind and in my co-founder's mind. An ID which we thought could change the world. There wasn't even a market for it. Companies were not using a solution like we offered. So we really had to educate and create the market and after that also selling our software solution. So what we do is that we provide a solution for bigger enterprises like T-Mobile, Sonos, Philips and TomTom to create our own community as part of the website. In the first year, I guess we did around 400, 500K in revenue. We had around three or four big enterprise customers. So it went really well. And I believe that if you have a company and you're able to grow it to at least 400, 500K in revenue, you can grow it to one million. And if you have a company with one million in revenue, I believe you can grow it to five million in revenue. The only thing is you need to put the effort in. And a lot of people underestimate that. And a lot of people don't want to do that. In fact, I read by coincidence this morning in the Dutch financial papers, F-Day, a story about Airbnb. They already existed for five years. They were almost at the point of quitting, stopping the company. They were three months ahead of that decision. And now the company is worth over five billion because they put the effort in. So after the first year, the company progressed. We currently have about 70 employees. This year alone, we're going to hire 60 additional We have offices in Madrid, in Berlin and London. And we have around 50 or 60 large enterprise customers. So things have really changed in the first six years. A year ago, we were at a crossing point. We doubled in size the first couple of years in terms of revenue, in terms of people, in terms of customers. The last two years, we grew about 80% year over year. And we realized that if we would continue this way, probably our growth rate would be anywhere between 30 and 40% year over year. And we were thinking, is this enough for us? And we realized it was not. Because in the end, we did not want to build a good company. And why not? Because I believe good is the enemy of great. And we had far more ambition than growing 30% year over year, which was mainly due because of working capital constraints. Because we needed to invest. We needed to have salespeople all across Europe. We needed to set up a marketing machine. And all these costs were already flowing out of our pocket, while revenue would probably take one or two years. So that's why we were only able to grow 30% on average. And that was not good enough for us. So we were at the crossroad. And then we decided to look for external capital, mainly to fuel the next step of our company growth. So we created a presentation, a PowerPoint presentation of about 20 slides, which basically indicated how our vision and how our ambition looked like. What did we want to build from an insider perspective towards the future? And along with the PowerPoint, we created a big financial excel sheet, which had all the assumptions for the upcoming four or five years, which people that we're going to hire, what were the salary rates, which countries should we conquer, how many customers are we going to get in each individual country? And we had shut-loads of assumptions put in the model, but it was our thoughts of conquering the world and becoming a global market leader in this area. So together with my PowerPoint and my excel sheet, I created a list of 40 big investment companies, a long list, and in the end we spoke with about 25 of them.  So in the end I think we had about 10 proposals from different venture capital companies and we selected one. And actually it was a combination of three investors, which we've picked, two international investors and one Dutch investor. And in total we've raised 6 million in external capital, which we closed around 12 weeks ago. With that transaction the company was valued in tens of millions of euros and since last week the magazine of Quote got me on the list of their top 100 millionaires below 40. And with that I hope to give some inspiration also to other entrepreneurs, who are also in the same spot, who are also looking to expand their business. And we'll also like to have, just like me, some inspiration going forward, really achieving that world domination. And this maybe looks all happy and fun, but actually being an entrepreneur is quite hard.  When my friends or family are in the weekend, when it's sunny, just like last week's, when those guys in the weekend are having fun, are doing a barbecue, are walking in the park with their kids, are doing great stuff, enjoying the beach or whatever, I'm at home replying to emails which my employees sent to me this week because they need to have an answer. I am preparing a board meeting which I'm having coming week. I am creating a presentation on business development, how to conquer the next world. And it all takes time. And you have to put the effort in. You have to have the ambition to do it, else it will never work. But in the end, I truly believe that if you take ownership, either your own personal life or your professional life, your life will be so much better. Many people dream, but few execute. And I also say to you, take the ownership, walk the extra mile, get it done. I'm sure you will not regret. The second core value is all about improved by learning. When I was two years old, my father left. And my mother had to run the family. And although she got remarried, that also didn't work out. So growing up was quite a challenge. I always had the idea that one day I would trace my father and we would reconnect again. And about two years ago it was about time. Also because my girlfriend was pushing me that it was about time. And then it happened. It was a normal Wednesday morning, I guess. I was sitting at the office doing some regular work and my mother called. I sat down and she immediately said that my father had passed away. The father which I knew nothing about. The father which I had never spoken to.  I learned the hard way that sometimes in life you need to move fast. Personally I'm doing this totally different now. I have a great girlfriend, I have a son of about one and a half years old and we're expecting a newborn, a new guy or girl at the end of October. And I learned to cherish my family. And I'm really committed on getting and keeping everybody together in that. Also in my professional career I learned a lot. And I believe if you are an entrepreneur one of the most important things is growing as a leader. You continuously need to redefine yourself as a leader. Being a CEO of a company which only has like three, four or five people is totally different compared to the company size which we're currently at. But I'm still the same person. I was the CEO of the five person company and I'm the CEO of the 70 person company. And in 12 months I'm the CEO of the 150 person company. So I continuously need to redevelop myself, challenge myself to grow as a leader. And apart from that it's also really important that with that I also grow the entire leadership team. So all my management team members but also the entire organization. I think that is really, really key to growth. We are a software company so we use a lot of technology. We're currently at the forefront of these technological possibilities. We run a platform in the AWS Amazon cloud but we learn new techniques every day. We learn how to service our customers on a completely different way compared to a year ago. A year ago we had some consultancy hours which we sold by the hour. Today we have standardized success packages to offer to our customers. Our organization chart changes every six months because a new department pops up, because other people get a promotion or because the business or our customers demand it. So you have to be agile enough in order to do that. And you have to grow as a person but you also need to get people on board who also have that attitude of growing. Who also understand that if you step into the company today in six months it will be totally different. And you need those people in order to survive. This is a quote from the CEO of Microsoft. I am defined by my curiosity and thirst for learning. I buy more books than I can finish. I sign up for more online courses than I can complete. I fundamentally believe that if you are not learning new things you are stop doing great and useful things. Nice quote. And this guy by the way is an Indian guy who is now the CEO of Microsoft. And the recently appointed Google CEO is also an Indian guy. So we see a real trend towards these more personal and humble leaders in this world. But that aside, did you know what? Target Mark Zuckerberg set for himself last year to read 24 management books. Warren Buffett reads 500 pages a day and contributes his success to that fact. And he says that's how knowledge works. It builds up like compound interest. All of you can do it, but I guarantee that not many of you will do it. In fact, many studies show that not your personal or economical or even university background, but reading books is key to growth. So I believe that probably the best career advice you can get as an entrepreneur but also as a person working at a company is reading and learning books. And with that obviously, we don't mean the Donald Duck. It's about things which bring you knowledge, things where you can improve, where you can learn from. Personally, I read about 12 books or so a year. And without, for example, this book, Scaling Up, Rockefeller Habits, but also books like Top Grading or The Goal or Predictable Revenue, I wouldn't be as far as I am today. Apart from this, I also want to speak a little bit about personal training and development. I mentioned that I was once the first chairman of the Academic Business Club, which I'm really proud of, that it still exists and really growing and organizing lots of events. Currently, I'm part of the Entrepreneurs' Organization, EO, which is a global organization of around 11,000 members worldwide. And every month, a peer group of entrepreneurs comes together, and I'm also part of APA Group of 10 entrepreneurs, and we share experiences month after month on topics we bring in as a team. We don't give each other advice. We're only there to share experiences, and that really helps me to put stuff in perspective. I also have a few advisors, people who really contribute on some specific strategic subjects. You know, and we're all smart people here in the room, right?   You know, you guys have all the answers to the problems you encounter in your personal lives or in your professional lives.  I'm not too worried about that. The thing is, it's not the answer you don't know. It's the question. Which question do you need to ask yourself as a person, personally or professionally, in order to grow? Find the smartest who and learn from that. Don't do everything by yourself. There are many people who have already experienced it. That's what I've been doing with the Academic Business Club, and now with EO. So, a month ago, I was in San Francisco for a conference, a software as a service conference, so exactly the space I'm in. And it was a conference of about 800 people or so. It had regular, you know, sessions during the day, some workshops, and in the night, obviously an open bar and lots of drinking. That's how conferences go. And in the early evenings, I went to the bar trying to grab two beers, one for me and one for my co-founder who joined me in the conference. And I got, you know, a conversation with somebody who was also ordering beer. And we got into a conversation and he was explaining that he really felt bad about his company. He felt he was a bad manager. He felt he didn't have the right vision in order to grow the company. He felt that he had lots of operational problems inside his company, and he felt responsible for that.  I'm, you know, up and running for five years. I have a pretty good team. So, I explained him some of the stuff I was working on, on the meeting rhythms which we implemented inside the company, the one-page strategy plan which we implemented. So, I felt really proud, you know. Oh, cool. You know, I can really, you know, give him some tips and some stuff I am working on and share my experiences. And then I asked him some more detailed questions and it turned out that his company only existed for two and a half years. Right? So, not a very long time. And then I asked him some more questions and it turned out that this guy in these two and a half years already had 400 people working for him. So, this guy in like half the time where I founded my company, he was like four times the size and I felt such a loser, you know.  But why, you know, I mean, you have a great company. It progressed really well and you're doing a great job. And then I felt, whoa, why are we not moving faster, you know? What's happening with us? Like after that moment, my co-founder, every week he comes to me saying, Robin, we're not going fast enough. What can we do to increase the speed? But it got me thinking, you know, a lot of the people also in the Netherlands, which mainly in the Netherlands, which I talked to, they think really small. What we now see, you know, traveling all across Europe but also to the U.S.  And I was really shocked by that. And we now have another vision, you know. We want to be this global leader in this industry. But it really helped me putting stuff in perspective and also seeing, you know, what other entrepreneurs worldwide are doing. And now I see the Netherlands mainly as our test market. You know, it's only a small country. So we try out new propositions, new products, and if that works, we scale that on an international level. But it's really hard if you, you know, cycle from your home to university or to your office.  And you come to the office and you see the same people and that's it. You know, if you don't read any books, if you don't go outside, if you don't talk to other people, if you don't travel, then you have this limited vision, this limited idea of the world. So that really helped me going there to this conference in San Francisco.   I need to do something. And if I look back now at my time here in Tilburg University, I'm away for 10 years now. And when I was studying here, you know, we had lots of colleges and we had to read all kinds of books, you know, lots of books. And I was here in the library reading all these things, you know, and I was, oh, man, do I really, why do these teachers need to, you know, pick this book, you know, for their college? Why can't they just do it like a 10-page summary or so? And I was really feeling, you know, oh, why do we need to do that? But only now I see the value of that. Only now I see that, you know, if I hadn't done that, that knowledge was not compounded as the interest as Warren Buffett talked about. And it also now, looking back, I see now that it's really, really important that you also keep it up, you know, don't start, stop learning when you are done here. Get that management book. Go out. Read about it. You've been doing it here, so you're able to do it. Don't stop there. Every morning in Africa, a gazelle wakes up. It knows it must run faster than the fastest lion or it will be killed. Every morning, a lion wakes up. It knows it must outrun the slowest gazelle or it will starve to death. So in the end, it doesn't matter whether you're a lion or a gazelle, when the sun comes up, you'd better be running. And before I finally wrap it up, there was one final video which I want to show you on Insighted. I love the improved by learning because I truly believe that we need to reinvent ourselves every six months to keep up with the growth we are experiencing. I also love the We Party because I believe if you spend lots of time in growing the business, you better make it a fun ride. I'm really proud of the fact that we work for big brands and that we can actually make a measurable impact on how these big brands interact with their end users and how they are able to step into the collective knowledge of their end users. The first five years have been amazing and I'm really proud of the entire team here at the Insighted office in Amsterdam but also at our satellite offices worldwide. We currently have over 15 different nationalities which all bring value and diversity in the team and I'm really looking forward to expand that even more. In 10 years from now Insighted will be a global leader in community engagement. We have even greater platform than today but also an ecosystem where external parties like customers and partners can build applications on our architecture. This means we still have a long journey to go. In 10 years we will be the market leader worldwide, have lots of great offices around the world and also work with an awesome team. We keep our international teams aligned by having a monthly town hall meeting here in Amsterdam where we keep everybody updated on what's going on in the company and every quarter we dive in even deeper on a strategic level. Here in Amsterdam as well where we fly everybody in from the other countries so that everybody can actually work towards the same big hairy odacious goal. Our big hairy odacious goal is that in 2025 Insighted communities are an essential part of thousands brands worldwide. So with that a message for everybody. Start running or keep running if you already have the right pace. Improve, learn, speak to others, speak to peers, start reading books, take ownership but most of all stick to your own core values and boldly go. Thank you very much.


Thank you. So shall we get started? Can you hear me? Is the microphone working? Maybe if it isn't. Yeah, good. Cool.  Because this is my first depoconf and I've not been doing Java packaging very long either. And I say the more everyone else will get out of it. And I think. So I put together really one slide other than the title slide of things people suggested we might want to talk about. So I also, I put those things on a gobby document on gobby Debian org. So maybe if someone here could sort of scribble down what people say on that gobby document then we'll have a record afterwards of kind of what was said. So kind of those were the things that people sort of wanted to talk about. The reason why I proposed this boff was that I foolishly tried to package a Java application. And I actually went like, well I was about to start doing this. Russ, and he said, yeah, I tried to do that and it was just too much like hard work. And my experience also was that it was too much like hard work. So I have, you know, I ended up with ten libraries to package. And then the, so I got all of those and packaged them and then I never quite finished the app itself because, you know, so I got so far behind everything else. And I think it struck me that there must be a better answer to this because, you know, one of the things on that list is a problem with manpower. And if everyone who tries to come to think, well, I've got this Java app I use, it would be handy if it was in Debian. They start off on this process and lose the will to live halfway down it. Then we have this kind of vicious cycle where each new potential contributor gets stuck, loses heart. So their application never makes it into Debian, which is a problem. They probably go off and do other things and we have fewer, few of those dependent libraries packaged up. So the next person who comes along, there aren't so many libraries, so they have to package more libraries. These sort of self-reinforcing problem. And I think that Maven actually makes this worse. I've come to loathe Maven more than I loathe almost anything else. And I think as a distribution, it presents a number of problems for us. Ignoring the fact that this default mode of operation is not terribly secure, you know, it'll download any old garbage over HTTP and compile it and install it on a system for you. I think it encourages upstream authors to be kind of slapdash in their approach to dependencies, the libraries they depend on. If your expectation is either everyone will just install the binary jar, which is a common model, or they'll just run Maven and it'll download everything. You don't care about using sort of popular libraries in the way that someone writing a C application might. There's a lack of clear sort of versioning, you know, you declare a version dependency or some other library, or maybe you wanted a particular API that's provided by a particular version, or maybe you just picked the latest one when you happen to write your application. And then when we come along, we don't want 50 different versions of some Java library, so we often end up trying to have to pretty much guess where the API has changed in the versions of a Java library. So that makes the whole process harder as well. Yeah, so I think this sort of whole approach that Maven encourages is really unhelpful for us as a distribution. And I wonder if there's anything we can do to try and ameliorate that. And Andrew, is Andrew here? Hi. Andrew's Google Summer of Code project I think might be a starting point for that because do you want to say what you did? There's a microphone. Tell us what you did. Save me talking. Hello. Is this on? From my project, I was creating a Maven plugin to actually build a Java application and iterally build all of its dependencies and dump it all into a Maven repository. I mean, it struck me that this sort of... because we have MH make, which is pretty good, but it's not perfect. And I wondered if we could... some modification of that approach, that sort of automatic finding all the dependencies and building them, we could use to make the job of someone who comes along with their new Java application they want to get into Debian and makes the job of sorting out all of the libraries and getting them into distributable form easier. And that might solve some of our problems both in terms of manpower and make people's lives easier in terms of getting Java applications into Debian. Someone say something. Disagree with me. Excellent.  Could you please explain to the group how you propose that Debian support Maven 3 coexistence with Maven 2? No. I don't have an answer to that question. So, as I said, I'm not sure I'm the right person to be coordinating this. I sort of did it because I thought it would be a useful discussion to have, but I'm not an experienced user of Java. I don't really develop Java at all. It's just I had a need to use a Java application for my work. And the Shibboleth team already has everything except the Java app in Debian. And it would be useful if we could get the Java app in as well. So that's sort of where I come to this from. So if you ask me kind of detailed questions about different versions of Maven, I'm not the person to answer them. Just a minute. All right. So I'm Tony Maxwell for those of you who don't know me. And I've been on the Java team for a while. And I have to, I also have to claim certain ignorance of some of the inner workings. And we have the Maven repo helper, Maven Debian helper. And it's a little bit of black magic for me even having worked with them for quite a while to get those to work. And I think we're at the point where to support Maven 3, where we really need to back up and retool and reevaluate this. So we're talking about a couple. There's a few issues, right? As one, and I think, so my answer is we already have to support, we have to support Maven 2 and Maven 3 build systems if we're going to continue to distribute Java apps within Debian. Yeah. And coming to this conference actually, I didn't want to put it up there for topics of discussion, but some days I feel like we should distribute JDK and we should distribute maybe Tomcat, maybe if we're willing to do the security support and then helpers to allow folks to basically run their Java apps on top of Debian because this cascading effect of every library that anyone has ever used is arduous. It takes a simple, what's, there's some open CA, some nice CA tool and it had 45 reverse dependencies and we don't know how many of those also had reverse dependencies. So the interesting thing is of course the problem isn't really numerically all that terribly different from the world of C-based applications. The distinction is that most of the libraries that matter to people in the world of C applications grew up through the history of Unix and lots of people over a lot of time have thought about what's the right way to package libraries. We transitioned to shared libraries, we figured out shared library versions. Just a lot of infrastructure that's grown up with the application community and so new people coming in who want to write a C app sort of have this body of well engineered infrastructure that's grown up over time. The problem that I've seen is a lot of folks that are writing Java apps while the resulting apps are really cool and the one that Tom and I sort of got entangled in his open rocket and a really cool rocket design and simulation program and a reverse dependency list just about killed us. Then of course Keith and I our rocket ground station software is all written in Java these days so this is why I'm hearing why I care about this but my observation has been that just in the world of people writing Java apps there's nowhere near the sort of focus on distribution, distributability, packageability and all of that because the model really is here's the URL to download the latest JAR just run it and I in fact have given up and for open rocket I'm now delivering an installer that knows where to go get the latest JAR and download it and you know wrap it so that it can be invoked and gee you know it works and my life's gone back to being less painful but it feels like it feels like treason somehow this isn't how this is supposed to work. It's actually I'm sorry to hog the mic but it's actually more complicated than this because we have upstreams that have this post open source attitude that they will just shove bits on to GitHub that build with Maven and they're happy when they create a POM XML that will build their thing and you're actually lucky to have reasonable version numbers and releases and if you have version numbers and releases there really isn't much consistency in Java developers using semantic versioning to actually represent ABI changes absolutely so this makes Tony's problem even worse because not only do you have the large graph of reverse depends but each project has a reverse depends on different versions of libraries and there's almost no path to resolve that except hand to hand combat every time. The way that I resolve this in Java packaging is actually to have a SED script that runs over my source code and renumbers the library every time I make an ABI change and so I literally edit the name of the library and append a number an ABI version number and ship multiple libraries I mean I looked all through the documentation is there really no ABI versioning in Java at all? Who could build a library system like that in the year 2000? I'll just comment I gave a talk on this in 2012 and it's this, you know so Gosling's dream has come true right at one to run it anywhere right? So the point is basically once it builds that's one of the issues I think with struggles with Java as a language once you get it to build you know that's it that's what Maven is there to solve is hey let me be able to reproducibly build this at some snapshot in time and there is no conception of let me have just one copy of this library on my system and move it forward I'm sorry I don't have time to move forward and let me upgrade that I'm supposed to wrap my arms around the whole system and build it all together well I think it's more of a container view where basically hey this app runs with this set of libraries and that's good I just wanted to comment that at my company we definitely tried to fight this battle some and we had given up and basically just each application ships its entire set of dependencies and the premium that it used to be runtime requirements are also not that bad you can make an argument for security issues I'm not sure where we stand on that but I see a lot of value in the package the JDK and package Tomcat and do nothing else approach to things because it's a lot of efforts that when people get down and use these things in anger and alternative approaches just to get their job done it's kind of a council of despair though isn't it how do we solve the job of packaging problem we don't the security thing that someone alluded to at the moment is an issue so I looked at this application I was trying to package and see on some SSL library that some PhD student had written back in the day and he was he's going to get it into security commons on this gov and yet it has forgotten and here it is doing SSL and something that is a security relevant application this sort of maybe encourages you to just say at one point I'll just carry on using it till the cows come home and if someone finds the security bug in it well it herbs one kind of related minor thing we might want to consider is I believe past few weeks Sonotype has now enabled support for HTTPS for downloads from the main repository so it might be handy for our tools for people to switch to use that as a default because it's not the upstream default yet I don't think for Leiningen or Maven or whatever I expect for Leiningen it probably will be soon if it's not already but I don't know about Maven that's it Rob brought up a really good point which is Leiningen is basically the tool built on top of Maven for closure applications and I happen to be a closure developer and I really enjoy closure and so I started talking with some people about well what should we do for Jesse well what we really ought to do is get Leiningen into Jesse and we started down the trail of doing that and then Emmanuel brought up the Java 8 transition which you have in your slide which is a big issue we tripped over the Maven 3 thing which is another issue and then the reverse depends for closure to get Leiningen to build but I think that this problem isn't just Java it's also JVM languages so this comes up with closure it comes up with JRuby potentially Scala and other things as well and I would guess that many of those Java languages are probably using Maven or in the case of closure their own build tool which is sort of a layer on top and I don't have any answers but it certainly brings up a good point okay I certainly don't want to one comment and then I'll I don't want to hog the mic I guess my look I mean I realize this we could move in a lot of places with this talk I mean I don't want I would like feedback and I think Debian Java is the best place to provide it certainly there are folks who aren't here but feedback on how we continue to make Java within Debian what's useful sounds you know sounds like supporting JVM run times development tools possibly I mean I think applications gets pretty hairy pretty quickly writing up policies for how to package Java applications just telling us how to do it right now the instructions are the instructions are make sure all of your library the current Java instructions are in Debian and then build your application on the top of the Java libraries in Debian and given the ABI issues that's clearly just not a supportable plan Open Rocket is an example here we have you know BDEL tried to get all the libraries in Debian and the ABI instability across versions was a disaster I've tried to do the same thing and ship you know one library with multiple applications and every time I rev the ABI I just I can't do that having a policy down that says the Java distribution policy is you package all the libraries except for this tiny little set of ones which are guaranteed to not change an ABI that we will supply package them in this way put them in these directories and then your application will work and just abandon the notion of having common shared Java libraries in the distribution That's quite a radical suggestion I think it might be the right answer because currently our other Java policies like the C policy if there's a library we should have more version on the system because as you pointed out we solved all these problems in C years ago and it's clearly the right way to do it but maybe that's a fight we can't have with the Java world because they don't give them monkeys We don't have we don't have shared libraries in Java What does this mean? But does this mean are we going to insist on building all the jars from source or not? I think we have the whole point of free software is that you distribute the preferred form for modification I assume you wonder if you're starting to talk about I just wanted to make sure that's still what we were talking about In what sense if you're not building from source in what sense do you have the preferred form for modification I think, sorry, do you speak? Right, so I'm a newbie when I first started to learn Java I used Linux to do it and I got in the habit of adding dependencies right with my package and I really thought that was the way to go because reading about Maven was just too complex for me to want to I didn't have the time to do it I didn't have the knowledge to set up Maven and stuff like that and the wiki page was too complex for me even to touch upon so that was my issue I just wanted to comment I do think we do always want to build from source no question asked but I think there's something to this idea of if you have these set of libraries that belong to your app to a lot of other apps maybe at some point they'll be promoted but maybe there's room for us to distribute some jars provided they build from source that are part of your class path that aren't part of the system's class path so I'd welcome discussion on the list about possibly it's not really relaxing Java policy but it's changing Java policy to support this for me personally I think it's untenable right now to continue trying to support this because invariably you're well you're robbing someone one of the issues we run into the Java team is we're pushing new we don't have visibility of everything so we're trying to we need upstream version X of package foo that needs version Y of bar push that and it turns around if you don't build all the reverse depends you know this isn't so our next summer of code project I would love a tool that just said alright I'm proposing uploading this build every single reverse depends because invariably then and then there's a we have to quickly we have fail to build from source and then we end up spending a lot of time just trying to essentially now we're reporting those ABI changes within the team and that's the team is not staffed for it a problem that will arise from this approach at the moment you know if we find a security problem in a particular Java library well it's easy we fix that Java library and you know where you go so if we're going to start shipping entire apps we're going to have to have some sort of metadata in the app you know in the dev file or somewhere that describes the versions of all the libraries that are contained within that app both and partly so this problem and a security issue we can fix that but also then that will give us the tools to say well actually you know we're shipping 20 apps all of which contain this same library maybe at that point we should start thinking about taking that library into its own package. How do we plan to deal with the issue of the different packages depending on different versions of the same dependency? Do we allow them to be co-installed? The problem I see is that if you allow them to be co-installed you easily end up with 5 million copies of the same library because some program won't be whatever be changed or in the next years be changed to use the new version that would be easier to take away but yeah So is the answer to that we need to push back on upstreams more to make them produce higher quality code? Do we have that power? We can try but I think I think this is kind of the crux of the problem is it's unrealistic to expect we can change the Java habits that are there but it is really frustrating hold on a second I'm torn because in the one hand I see this idea of well let's just ship open JDK and then go to town the thing that scares me among other things like security is that this is kind of breaking our relationship with our users. It means that you can't just say up get source and get something that you expect I'm wondering if I know this sounds kind of unrealistic but I'm wondering if there's a way that we could you know with a policy change like insisting that every Java library that we use has some sort of auto package test thing in it that we basically have some magical tool that will like examine the ABI of Java libraries download every version and automatically determine when the ABI changes and then you know help us do this basically automatically so humans don't have to be involved that would be cool so I just I keep reminding myself that the fundamental problem is a clash of world views and that the objectives of what appears to be sort of the center of the behavioral model and the Java community is not the set of objectives that we have had traditionally in the Debian project with respect to how things get packaged how they get distributed you know the notion of never shipping more than one copy of a given piece of source code built on the system as a shared library or something that world view I mean you know is Keith's point out the situation with the support for ABI versioning you know you just look and there are things that just aren't there and the reason they aren't there isn't because those people are stupid it's because they have a different set of objectives and that wasn't necessary to meet the objectives they had is that good for us? No to your question is this something we should be pushing back and upstream about? Hell yes because you know I think that the model that we have evolved of sort of how we care for source code and how we deal with security issues and all of these things that we use in Debian is immensely powerful do I think we actually have the power to you know drive change in the Java community? No I really don't and so where does that leave us? It leaves us having this kind of a discussion off it's a we think we know what they ought to do to make the world a better place and we have absolutely no idea how to actually affect that change so where does that leave us? Well as you use the word magic in there some magic tool I mean it would be nice to have some magic tool but I don't know how we make that come into existence there is a tool called CLEAR a C-L-I-R that will do some of this other packaging problems that I've come across one of the other areas where we have a similar problem is shipping multiple versions of GCC targeting different architectures I built a cross compiler environment for ARM that's in the archive the way that we resolve that in Debian today is we actually have the build process have a build dependency on a source package would it be appropriate for us to allow in the archive innumerable different variants of the same source package for different libraries and have perhaps a Debian specific numbering of the ABI's of each of those packages so that when you build your package you're saying my package needs this library and I need this source version of that library and as part of building your package you incorporate that source version of your library and build a JAR from that and make it a very lightweight process of the new source version of a particular library and it's like well I know it's not and probably not make the ABI any sort of monotonic progression in time just say yeah I downloaded this new program it used this random version of this library it's not already in the archive what's in the archive doesn't work for me I'm just going to upload a new source version of this package and give it another number that would have a couple of effects it would allow you to share the same source library across several package that you maintain if it's the same version it would also allow us to identify rapidly locations in the archive where we have security problems and we can upload security fixes and it would be a tremendous burden on the Java team to actually go through and say oh we have 47 versions of libSSL used by different Java programs I have to go and do the same security fix to all 47 versions it would be a mechanical process at least because you would the code would presumably be effectively the same everywhere but it would be a larger burden but at least it would allow me to upload the sources that I needed to construct my package to make sure that we had sources that corresponded to the binaries in the archive yeah I do you have a question you were waving your hand out there I'm just going to comment quickly I'm carrying the mic over here that's a little bit of a maven that's kind of getting closer to the maven model we'd have our own repository of lots of versions possibly the same library but I like that it's interesting yeah I mean I was thinking that I don't I don't know that we have enough leverage to be able to you know push we have a limited amount of leverage but I think it's very good for us we may have being a reasonable decision to be have some stronger influence over time and there probably are plenty of upstreams that follow and there's a number of other versioning processes that are just fine and so for those we might not have too much trouble handling things the normal way I suspect that given the way the JVM works there may be tooling ways we can help but it sounds to me like maybe over time what we need is some sort of hybrid approach possibly where you know there's the obvious way we want things done and we try to encourage people to do it that way but there's a lot of packages that upstreams that aren't following that model we still have a way to address it and in particular be able to handle the security issues carefully that kind of thing all right if anyone else I'm going to bring up a couple other topics before you do just to try and sort of summarize that a bit to make sure I've understood what everyone said and I think we're going to have to go back and talk about this on Devi and Java because we're essentially proposing a policy change and we've sort of two alternatives I think have been suggested there's the alternative where we ship OpenJDK that's about it there's the alternative where we carry on with our current approach which I think is clearly unsustainable and there's an approach where we we move towards the point where if you want to ship an app in Debian it's okay for that app to be built using a pile of libraries rather than having the sort of have one copy of this library on the system instead you know either we have some sort of mechanism with different source packages in the archive that you incorporate in your build or something like that where you have an app that definitely builds from source but it comes as one giant jar rather than you know with its own class path my feeling is that latter approach is better for our users it means for common applications people will be able to use it on Debian and I think it will make our lives tractable in a way that our current approach doesn't just a quick that was just a straw man saying yeah no shot I think we needed some sort of combination between those two because there was one case where you have just a pure Java library and it then can just incorporate everything it magically finds something somewhere else but there was also a case of library just happening or programs just happening to have some features in Java and in my case they just incorporate the code from Apache Commons and just build it into the jar and be done with that so what that package does now is to use the normal packaging way and if we get to the source code solution you need to invent some mechanisms to get the source code into that program so I think it's not a good way to change the complete way but have a mixture between so I think shall we leave the dependency health question for now because we've used most of our time in the word there are some other issues up there so Tony do you want to say something I think you are going to I just wanted to bring we just kind of spitballed on the list to figure out what will we talk about during this I think the dependency health question is more I'm glad that we spent a lot of time on that I just wanted to bring up so Java 8 transition I can't give a good overview of that other than the main struggle there seems to be that wouldn't it be great if we had JDK that built across all of our architecture and just just one or two or even just three would be great actually microphone sorry just in the spirit of getting to all the architectures it would be a lot easier if we only had to support one version of open JDK absolutely no argument there I think when we brought up the Java 8 transition I mean I don't my gut feeling is for Jesse we I don't suspect it's going to happen maybe if folks really wanted to happen and everyone gets really super busy we have two months right it doesn't look tractable here unless somebody is suddenly going to have a burst of enthusiasm on that front but let's talk about it on the list it's what remains to be done I just wanted to know what remains to be done for the Java 8 transition I haven't been following it closely the main problem as far as I followed it is that some random package does not be a twist to ADK 8 maybe because there was some javadoc issues or some code issues or whatever so I think Emmanuel did file a pile of bugs but I'm not sure whether it's all bugs existing part of the answer to your question can be found on the . Emmanuel created a bug to track javadoc transition things some of them are kind of benign there's one little Java library a leaf library that needs to be updated but there are significantly more complicated cases like j-ruby I've taken a couple of steps at updating and packaging j-ruby but that's tricky because there's native bits, there's it used to and I've been working with upstream because I know upstream to get some of the binary blobs out of their thing but still we have to, I mean it's a really tricky package to do the problem that they have gems which is a whole other thing and so there are some really tricky things for example to get this done to do it right what we really want to do is we want to get an updated version of j-ruby that builds against JDK8 and then that will solve that particular problem but that's an example of how the transition is going to be tricky so to be continued javadoc transition talk so with Tomcat I just want to list this one explicitly because we've gotten to the point with Tomcat it's a little bit of a deviation from the Debian model in terms of supporting stable where we're no longer back porting so we no longer back porting everything to say Tomcat 6 6035 instead in fact we're actually proposing uploading 6041 to old stable and I'm talking to Holger about that and so we reached this point I just kind of wanted to bring it up and let folks know we reached this point the security team needs these updates and we're currently the way we're staffed with manpower we it seems less dangerous to go to the new version but that feels odd to me having been that hasn't been the Debian way in the past and so I just wanted to bring that up as a topic and maybe hear comments and ideas for that and one other thing because I've been hogging the mic so much but in terms of getting more contributors those in the room and those listening to the stream we make it sound so bleak and all I think it's a blast it's fun, these are interesting problems these are some real kind of gnarly engineering problems plenty of meat to sink your teeth into maybe Andrew wants to comment on that so if you're interested Debian Java at list.debian.org please feel free, we welcome all types of contributions there's healthy, there's a lot of sponsoring going on there and I'll let anyone else who would like to speak I mean this business of not backporting security problems it makes me unhappy as well I speak from a position of massive ignorance because I don't use Tomcat at all but from every other package I've maintained whether it's security problems we always backport them but I guess we have to do something for our users and in the end if that means moving to a newer version it's better than not fixing the bugs at all there is precedent for it for a while years ago I used to maintain the bind packaging domain name service stuff there were at least two times where some issue upstream resulted in a new release and not from which it would have not been easy to backport a specific security fix and the discussion and resulting decision sort of came down to were you did you have a higher degree of confidence in the quality of solution you'd be delivering to our end users of trying to generate a Debian specific backporting patch which might or might not get a lot of testing and attention or accepting the fact that there was a large intense very technically astute community working to ensure that a new upstream version really did all the right things and was it better for our users to just put that in these are never easy discussions and I would not begin to suggest that our stable release managers will ever be happy having to have that conversation but there certainly have been times in the past where it was clearly the right answer to just accept a new version and put it into a stable update or put it into a backport depends how compatible it is but are we going to break everyone's with Barton you know if you break everyone's name service they'll be quite unhappy we've got five minutes so I think any more comments I'm just hoping that the gobby document now has all of this sort of stuff in it and maybe we can get at least get any executive summary up there and then send that to the Debian Java list so the people who haven't been here maybe we've talked about some quite radical policy changes we should try and get a summary of this discussion on the list so everyone else can particularly Emanuel who's not here does an awful lot of work and I'd want to keep him on board Absolutely, I agree. I was just going to touch every single point up there because I'm Tidey. All of the corrupty packages I actually had an email exchange with Emanuel regarding this and so the take right now is as long as there's not an RC bug we're just going to continue to bring things forward but that we will draw belief packages with extreme prejudice if they end up taking too much time it's one of these things I got real active with the team in 2010 and that was when Torsten Werner was giving his talk about the dependency hell and there was I think leading up probably 2008 to 2010 was maybe the heyday of Debian Java where a huge number of packages were added and there was a lot of support perhaps maybe even some day job corporate support I'm not sure but one of the issues we have right now with the team is there are a lot of packages that the active members on the team haven't actually worked on bugs get filed that's great another way to help that's awesome thank you to all of our bugs submitters and a lot of times they come with patches too I appreciate that but you get a patch and then you realize I don't even know how this build system where I mean it's about enough half the packages are CDBS, half of them are dead helper half of them are maven, half of them are ant and then half of them are super homegrown so and maybe well I just want to kind of share that as part of this buff is that at least in private email we kind of agreed as long as we're not going to proactively look for packages to cull but I think the count now is about 780 packages that are Java team maintained and that's for the size, it's hard to judge the size of the team but that's touching a fair number of packages every week I think for folks and also quick, well we're right at the thing thank you very much Matthew for organizing this and getting us together well thank you all for meaning I didn't have to stand here until talk all afternoon any more last thoughts anyone I'm interested in the reproducible build effort and one of the things that is on the list of things that aren't reproducible are time stamps in jars and time stamps in javadoc generated documentation would there be any real objection if we made these or if we attempted to make these deterministic based on like the stamp of the change log no I don't think so just engineering time yeah I think we're out of time now so thank you all for coming I think it's been quite useful we'll have a discussion on Debbie and Java about some of these ideas in due course


Putin can win any prize. It would be a competition of Russophobes because nobody as much as him has compromised Russia's future prospects and the prospects of its people with Hitler and Stalin is primarily responsible for the thousands of deaths taking place every day in Russia, whether it's on the battlefields of a crazy war or the continued dramatic deterioration of people's living standards, the propagation of diseases, alcoholism and drug addiction. According to the conclusions of some researchers from Yale University into the sanctions against Russia and I quote, Russia is no longer close to being an economic power and has deleted the minimal decoration of statistics on the minimum income which is required to be a member of the IMF. Putin's Russia simply survives by ceasing assets, the economy is increasingly dominated by the state which is devouring its own companies to feed Putin's war machine. It is therefore in the world's interest to put an end to this criminal regime and to bring about comprehensive, fair and lasting peace in Ukraine. We encourage all peace-loving states to commit to a process to implement the peace formula plan and in particular to participate in the fourth meeting of National Security Advisers on the peace formula for Ukraine which will be held on Sunday the 14th of January in Davos in Switzerland. The peace formula has become a platform and an international structure for peace to restore international law and the multinational security architecture. Lasting and fair peace can only be possible when we work together and our work must be based on the founding charter, the UN charter. Thank you very much. I thank the representative of Ukraine for their statement and now give the floor to the representative of Poland. Mr. President, distinguished briefers, members of Security Council, I will be brief. At the turn of the year, towards the end of the second year of the war, Ukraine experienced the largest wave of the Russian missile attacks on its civilian infrastructure and since the beginning of the aggression. Those barbaric and cynical assaults as well as attempts to impose a novel blockade of Ukraine clearly demonstrate Russia's resolve to plod along the path of terror and destruction. Moscow seems to be convinced that it can outlast the Ukrainian resistance and resilience to defend its people and its territory. Therefore it is our primary task to prove the Russian aggressors wrong by continuing our support to Ukraine for as long as it takes. Poland has done it so since the very beginning of the war and will continue on this path as it was duly reconfirmed during the yesterday's telephone conversation between the presidents of Poland and Ukraine as well as by the Polish Minister of Foreign Affairs during his very first foreign visit in office to Kiev just a few days ago. The choice of the minister's destination was a symbolic emphasis of the priority role that Ukraine plays in the Polish foreign policy as well as Polish readiness to further actively support Ukraine's European and Euro-Atlantic aspirations. Mr. President, the representatives of free world cannot afford to be fatigued with the war on Ukraine. As Mr. Shikolski stressed, the only country that could feel exhausted after the 23 months of constant oppression is Ukraine itself. And instead, it bravely stands against the unrelenting forests of Russian imperialism. So must we. As long as Russia remains committed to the furthest destabilizing global security architecture, we should continue to exert pressure on the aggressor while supporting the victim. Not only must we maintain the current levels of military and financial support to Ukraine, we actually need to do our best to increase it. Poland is currently discussing with Ukraine new forms of such support. Let us not forget, should Ukraine fail to falter, the risk of Russian next aggressions against new countries would rise dramatically. Should Ukraine prevail, the peace and the UN values will be restored. Mr. President, this delegates, therefore the stakes of this war in Ukraine are very high. Let us not forget that Russia openly admits that the war is not only about Ukraine. It's about imposing the new world order, which in fact disregards the very core principles enshrined in this United Nations Charter, namely sovereignty and territorial integrity and humanitarian law. So without the just peace in Ukraine, there is no chance for a lasting peace based on international law to which all members of this organization should adhere. And I thank you. I thank the representative of Poland for his statement. I thank the representative of Germany. Thank you, Mr. President. Let me start by congratulating the new members of this council, Algeria, Guyana, Republic of Korea, Sierra Leone, and Slovenia. We appreciate your commitment to contribute to strengthening international peace and security. Mr. President, Russia, we all witness it, is continuing its illegal war of aggression at full force. The recent massive bombardments directly target civilians even far from the front line. Besides drones from Iran, Russia fired for the first time ballistic missiles produced by North Korea. The transfer of these weapons constitutes a direct violation of binding Security Council resolutions that Russia itself voted for. To exercise its legitimate right of self-defense under Article 51 of the UN Charter, Ukraine relies on international support. We have taken the lead role in the supply of air defense systems. They directly contribute to saving lives. At the same time, the humanitarian situation in Ukraine remains dire, and Germany has contributed more than 403 million euros of humanitarian assistance. Besides the delivery of basic goods, we focus on the provision of mental health services, winterization, as well as demining activities. Colleagues, Russia's unjustifiable war affects us all. We must not allow attacks on sovereign countries and neo-colonial attempts to grab their land. An aggressor must never prevail. That being said, what can the international community do to end this tragedy? First, we must press the aggressor to seize its unlawful invasion. The GA resolutions and the ICJ's provisional measures must be implemented. Second, we must support Ukraine in defending itself, as long as the aggression continues. Third, we must create a foundation for a just and lasting peace. President Zelensky's peace formula clearly outlines a viable way forward. Finally, perpetrators of war crimes must be held accountable. In closing, we once again call on Russia to immediately and unconditionally seize all its military operations and to withdraw its troops from Ukraine. Thank you. I thank the representative of Germany for her statement and the representative of the European Union. Thank you, President. I am the best of all. I congratulate France for its presidency and I wish you the best of success. I have the honor to speak on behalf of the European Union and its member states. The Canada countries, North Macedonia, Montenegro, Albania, Ukraine, the Republic of Moldova, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Georgia, as well as Andorra, Monaco and San Marino, align themselves with this statement. Mr. President, for the people of Ukraine, 2023 ended and 2024 began with massive Russian missile and drone attacks on civilians and critical infrastructure in the midst of winter. As it unsuccessfully attempted last winter, Russia aims to destroy the morale and resilience of the Ukrainian people. In late December and early January, it carried out the largest strike since the start of its aggression. The EU condemns the intensification of Russia's campaign of systematic airstrikes against civilian targets and critical infrastructure in Ukraine. We reiterate the need to protect civilians and obligations of all UN member states. The Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights has confirmed that more than 10,000 civilians have been killed in Ukraine and more than 18,500 injured since Russia launched its full-scale invasion. The true toll is probably substantially higher. In this regard, we also condemn the continued military support for Russia's war of aggression provided by Iran, Belarus and the DPRK. And we continue to urge all countries not to provide weapons and military equipment, including missiles and drones or other support for Russia's war of aggression. We urge the DPRK and Russia to abide by the successive UN Security Council resolutions which clearly prohibit any arms exports or imports involving the DPRK. We also remain very concerned about the situation at the Saporizhia nuclear power plant and Russia's refusal to grant IAEA monitors access to the plant's reactors. Russia must urgently withdraw from the ZNPP and return control to its legitimate owner, Ukraine. Humanitarian access remains critical and we call on Russia to ensure safe and impeded humanitarian access to all areas under its temporary military control. The negative consequences of Russia's aggression are not limited to Ukraine. Russia's deliberate attacks on Ukraine's grain storage and export facilities as well as its actions to hinder the freedom of navigation in the Black Sea show it continues to weaponize food and deliberately undermines global food security. I stress the importance of security and stability in the Black Sea, which is vital for sustainable food exports to global markets and particularly to countries most in need. Mr. President, there can be no impunity. Russia and its leadership must be held fully accountable for waging a war of aggression against Ukraine and for other most serious crimes under international law, as well as for the massive damage caused by its war. The EU encourages further efforts to establish a tribunal for the prosecution of the crime of aggression against Ukraine that would enjoy the broadest cross-regional support and legitimacy and a future compensation mechanism. We reiterate our support for the work of the International Criminal Court and condemn Russia's continued attempts to undermine its independence, international mandate and functioning. We also recall the legally binding order of the International Court of Justice of March 2022 for Russia to immediately suspend its military operations in Ukraine. Finally, the EU supports all meaningful efforts to bring an end to Russia's war. The path to a comprehensive, just and lasting peace is for the aggressor to immediately, completely and unconditionally withdraw all its troops and military equipment from the entire territory of Ukraine and respect its sovereignty and territorial integrity. The UN General Assembly has stated this very clearly in successive resolutions. The EU will continue its global outreach to ensure the widest possible international support for a comprehensive, just and lasting peace and the key principles and objectives of Ukraine's peace formula with a view to a global peace summit with the broadest possible participation. The meeting of national security advisers in Davos in a few days is the next important step. The recent large-scale prisoner exchange demonstrates the scope for confidence-building measures and we welcome the facilitating role played by the UAE. Mr. President, I reaffirm the EU's unwavering support for Ukraine's independence, sovereignty and territorial integrity within its internationally-recognized borders, as well as its inherent right of self-defense. We will continue to support Ukraine and its people for as long as it takes. I thank you. I thank the representatives of the EU and the UN for our statements and our confidants and representatives of Estonia. Mr. President, I have the honor to speak on behalf of the three Baltic countries Latvia, Lithuania and my own country Estonia. We also align ourselves with the statements delivered by the European Union. Thank you for convening today's briefing. I thank the briefers and also warmly welcome all the new members of the Security Council. Mr. President, as many others have said, Russia has started 2024, where it left off last year, by unleashing death and destruction in Ukraine. Starting from the 29th of December, Russia initiated what could be considered the most extensive missile and drone strike against Ukraine, since the onset of the large-scale war. Deploying a total of 500 missiles and drones specifically intended to target high-tensity residential areas and critical infrastructure, including homes, schools, water systems, power plants and hospitals. Since the beginning of the war, over 1,300 attacks on healthcare facilities have been reported by the WHO in Ukraine. The Russian representative tries very hard to come up with absurd claims by stating that the damage is caused by Ukraine and air defence systems. At the same time, repeatedly failing to address why Russia even launches missiles which threaten lives of innocent civilians of another sovereign country in the first place. Mr. President, we also condemn Iran and the DPRK, who are providing weapons and ammunition to Russia in its indiscriminate war against Ukraine. We once again reiterate our call for a UN investigation on the weapon transfers and a report to the UN Security Council. Our countries have also joined the joint statement, which was mentioned before. Mr. President, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania have altogether contributed over 100 million U.S. dollars' worth of humanitarian aid to the people of Ukraine, and we will continue to support Ukraine until the aggressor is defeated. I would also like to acknowledge the efforts of the UN humanitarian coordinator for Ukraine, Ms. Denise Brown, and her leadership on the winter response plan. In conclusion, the sharp increase of Russia's attacks demonstrates that their criminal goals have not changed. We call upon Russia to respect the calls of the international community, voiced in relevant General Assembly resolutions, calling for immediate, complete and unconditional withdrawal of Russian military forces from the entire territory of Ukraine within in its internationally recognized borders. Into interest of time, we will send the full statement after the meeting. I thank you. Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. President. I thank you, Mr. President. I thank you, Mr. President. I thank you, Mr. President. I thank you, Mr. President. I thank you, Mr. President. I thank you, Mr. President. Thank you, Mr. President. I would like to add some considerations in its national capacity. Today, almost two years after Russia's full scale unprovoked, unjustifiable and illegal invasion of Ukraine, we stand together with the Ukrainian people, more united than ever, to reaffirm our unwavering commitment to our shared values, based on the rules-based multilateral order as recognized in the UN Charter. Italy condemns in the strongest possible way Russia's continuous, brutal attacks targeting civilian infrastructures and cities across Ukraine, as well as Russia's complete disregard to the call rising from the entire membership to put an end to its invasion of Ukraine. Russia will have to be accountable for war crimes and the heavy damages caused by its war of aggression. Assistance to Ukraine has been a priority for Italy since the beginning of the conflict and throughout 2023. Our countries provided more than two billion euros in aid, including humanitarian support and reception measures for refugees from Ukraine. Italy fully supports the humanitarian actors who are working tirelessly to ensure the protection of the population, rapid, safe and unhindered access to humanitarian assistance for those in need in Ukraine must be guaranteed. As current chair of the Mine Action Support Group, Italy is particularly proud of the broad engagement of the international community together with the UN to support the swift demining of the territory in order to prevent further humanitarian impact, especially on children and sustain Ukrainian agriculture to the benefit of global food security. Mr. President, we are committed to the sovereignty, independence, unity and territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders. Political, military and economic support for Ukraine is one of the key priorities of our G7 presidency, and we are determined to continue doing so as long as necessary to reach a just, comprehensive and lasting peace. In conclusion, Italy intends to play an active role in the reconstruction and social and economic recovery of Ukraine. A bilateral conference on the reconstruction of Ukraine was organized in Rome in April 2023, while in 2025 we will host the Ukraine recovery conference. Together we will lay the foundations for a prosperous independent Ukraine within our common European family. I thank you. The meeting is adjourned. Thank you.


Hi! Welcome back to my YouTube channel guys! Today we are going to talk about Wellington, New Zealand again, but we're going to talk about 10 places that I highly recommend you visit if you're ever in Wellington. Now if you didn't see my previous video where I talked about five things that I love about Wellington, New Zealand, I will link it above. But today we're going to talk about 10 places. Now this isn't like the only places that I highly recommend. These are just 10 of them. There's probably a lot more, but there's 10 that I would definitely recommend that I personally like. And no, none of them are paying me or sponsoring me to say this. This is actually what I think and places that I really love and that I think that you should check out. So here we go. Okay, so the first place that I think that you should check out is Taepaba, which is the National Museum of New Zealand. It's free of charge. It's like three or four stories high and it takes you all day. So if you come in, you can get through a lot of it, probably in a half a day. But if you're really into museums and you want to see everything, plan for a whole day. It is a great museum and they always have something else going on there where there's like a special exhibit or a special thing that you can walk through. And I highly recommend Taepaba. It is one of my highlights. I go there often. They have a really nice cafe and store inside so you can kind of plan a whole day there. And then also they have Wellington Museum, which is right next door. And I recommend that place as well. But Taepaba, if you are in Wellington, you're not going to want to miss it. The second place I recommend if you come to Wellington is you're going to have to check out the Embassy Theatre. Now, the Embassy Theatre was built in 1924. It's like this really old theatre, but they have kind of transformed it multiple times over the years. It did host the premiere of Lord of the Rings, Return of the King. And so it is just a really cool theatre because when you go in there, they have like the cool staircase when you go up on both sides. And then when you kind of sit like in real theatre seating because it used to be like a real theatre. And it's just really cool. And it's really well done. And they do have a cinema in there that has like 36 surround sound speakers with Dolby digital. All of that is kind of a really cool immersive experience that you can have at the Embassy Theatre. And so you should definitely check it out because I love that theatre. And you're going to see any sort of action packed film. You're definitely going to want to see it at the Embassy. And certainly any movie that Peter Jackson made or that was made in New Zealand, you should see at the Embassy. Now, you're all familiar that Fish and Chips is a very popular meal that they eat in New Zealand as a whole. So what is my favorite fish and chip shop in Wellington? It's the Chippery. And so if you happen to be at Embassy Theatre or you want to get something to eat before you go to that movie, I highly recommend the Chippery because it's just right around the corner. And that's really, really good. Now personally, I think that the Fish and Chips in the South Island as a whole in New Zealand are much better. But if you were in Wellington, this is one that I really like. And I think that you would like to. So if you haven't checked it out, check out the Chippery in Wellington. That's what I recommend for Fish and Chips. If you have a different one that you recommend in Wellington, it's not that I've tried everyone. Comment below and let me know because I would love to try it because I love Fish and Chips. Okay, the fourth place that I recommend is the Thai Chef Restaurant. This is my favorite Thai restaurant in all of the Wellington region, even in the Hutt Valley. There's lots of good Thai, but I'm telling you this Thai Chef restaurant is the best. And it's just down the street from the Embassy Theatre. So when you get out of your movie and you're feeling hungry again, go get Thai food here. It is so good. It's just down the street. It's just off of Courtney Place. And Courtney Place is kind of the cool hip-hopping place to be when you're in Wellington. It's like a lot of bars, a lot of restaurants, a lot of clubs, lots of fun things to do. That's where people kind of go to on the weekends for the party scene. And so it's just off of there. It's really good. It's kind of down to like a side street. So it's quiet and it's private. And it's also close to Taipapa. So if you haven't spent the day all at the museum, then go to this Thai restaurant. I highly recommend it. They are not sponsoring me to say this. I just actually really love this Thai restaurant. Okay. And the fifth place that I recommend that you do when you're in Wellington, and I have to say this because I have children, is you have to take them to time zone.  Now time zone is just a really fun arcade. It's really easy because you can just get like you get a card and you just scan it to buy all of the different games and arcade games. And then you collect tickets and you can get prizes. And it's like really cool. And I love it. And my kids love it. And I, I don't know, I guess I'm a little bit of a kid at heart. So my favorite is the deal or no deal. And I always like the dance ones. I love the whack-a-mole. But in this case, at time zone, they had whack-a-minion. And so I had to play that because I love that game. So yes, if you have kids or you're just a kid at heart, I highly recommend checking out time zone. It is a great place. It's like right in the middle of Courtney Place. So when you're just hanging out, you need something to do. And you're looking for something a little fun, or maybe it started raining and you need something that you can do that's indoors, I highly recommend time zone. Okay, now if you've been watching my videos, you know how much I love coffee. Now, you are not going to be disappointed by going to any cafe, I think in Wellington. Like I have never been disappointed. But I am going to recommend two to you today. The first one being hangar. And it is honestly the best coffee. They have really great food there too. Whether you just like a cheese scone or some a scone, or if you actually want breakfast, both are very good at hangar. I highly recommend that place. But definitely really good coffee. Like really good coffee. And then the second one, if you want something fun and more eclectic, I highly recommend Espresso-Holic. That is a really cool place on Cuba Street. It's kind of in the artsy district and just a fun shopping street where no cars can go down it. And it's just lots of, it has a really great vibe to it. And Espresso-Holic I think has been around for a really long time. And it's just kind of a cool place to get coffee. So like if you're looking for a place with atmosphere, I'd probably go there. And the coffee is also very, very good. So I highly recommend hangar and Espresso-Holic if you're going to check out a coffee place in Wellington, New Zealand. Okay, now moving on to other important things. In addition to coffee, you need to try the chocolate that is in Wellington. It is so good. So the first place that I'm going to recommend is obviously the Wellington Chocolate Factory. Now this company actually hasn't been around for a long time, but they have a really, really cool story. So if you go there, find out about the story. It is very, very cool. They're the first chocolate factory that are beans to bar in Wellington. And maybe in New Zealand, I'm not that familiar, don't remember offhand, but they're really, really cool or organic. They work with the farmers overseas and they're creating a really good relationship with them, paying them well. And it's just kind of a really cool organization to get behind. And I highly recommend Wellington Chocolate Factory. And it's really cool when you go in, you can see them making the chocolate. And it's just very fresh. And then they have a really great thing. So in the menu, if you want a good hot chocolate or ice chocolate or some ice cream, and they have just like, you can dip donuts in chocolate, all really, really good. And so check out the Wellington Chocolate Factory, check out their story, see what they're up to. They haven't been around for too long. I think five years are less or maybe a little bit more than that. And they just are very, very cool. They have a really cool company. I've talked to the owner before and just really cool what they're doing. And they're always doing neat things. And they're kind of creating new chocolates with other organizations and other restaurants in the area and creating and kind of combining their flavors and doing really cool things. So check them out. If you're ever in Wellington, check out the Wellington Chocolate Factory. So sometimes it can be cold, it can be rainy, it can be windy, especially in the wintertime. And if you're looking for a delicious hot chocolate when you are in Wellington, I highly recommend the hot chocolate at Scuba. It's like amazing. It's like literally like liquid chocolate in your mouth, but like not too rich. It's like, I don't know what they do. It's like the most amazing flavor. So that's what I recommend for the best hot drink. If you're not getting coffee, if you're not into coffee, go get hot chocolate from Scuba. It's also a pizza place. I haven't actually tried their pizza. It looks really good. So you go there for pizza and a hot chocolate and it's right on Cuba Street and it's in a great location kind of right in the middle. And it's really easy to get to and it's kind of in just a cool area to be in. So definitely check out the hot chocolate at this place. And I did do a vlog recently where my kids tried this hot chocolate for the first time. So I'll link it above so you guys can watch that one and you can kind of see what it looks like and what my kids were, my kids reaction to this delicious hot chocolate. So I highly recommend this place. Now the final place that I'm going to recommend when you come to visit Wellington, New Zealand, and I have to recommend a burger. I just wouldn't be an American if I didn't, right? So I'm going to recommend, there is a lot of good places actually that have good burgers. But I have to say one of my favorites that just makes the burger similar to what they make in the Midwest, the butter burger. It's so good. The bun is so good. I'm going to recommend Gorilla Burger. Now Gorilla Burger is just and it's in a food truck. I love food trucks. So I love that it's in a food truck. It's actually right by the Wellington Chocolate Factory. It's actually between the Wellington Chocolate Factory and Scuba.  It's so good.  And their burgers are very good. Now I haven't had, they have other, they have chicken burgers and that sort of thing on the menu, but I haven't gotten past the burger because every time I go, just give it to me. You know, I just love a really good burger and they don't always have it in New Zealand. I generally don't order burgers from places because unless I know that they're going to be really good. But this place I highly recommend if you're in Wellington, check out Gorilla Burger. Okay, so I hope you enjoyed my video showing you all my favorite spots of Wellington today. I really enjoyed it, but I'm tired and unfortunately my phone is dying and so I have to finish this up in my car while it's plugged in. And I am eating my Gorilla Burger because sorry, I'm American of all the food that I see today. I just really want the burger and I will finish it off with my Wellington chocolate from the Wellington Chocolate Factory. So I hope you enjoyed the episode this week and subscribe below, click the bell and I will see you next week.