Oh you're uh now you're connected How are you? I'm pretty well. Thank you and yourself. I'm well Excellent So many things moving all at the same time. It's funky. I kind of like it. Yeah. Yeah, it's good. It's uh It beats doing the same predictable thing every day Yeah, I Had uh, I had dinner with David Allen years ago. He's the getting things done guy who wrote the book And he was trying to figure out how to like build a business model that would give him escape velocity enough to be able to step away from the business and retire But try as he might everything he was doing. He was selling books. He was selling workshops He had merch. He had coaches on the phone to help people, you know talk people through how to get things done I'm forgetting one or two other business models sort of all there. He had a staff. They were quite efficient. Obviously. He was getting things done But but he one of the things he said that stuck in my head was he was he was performing the same one day workshop like 200 days a year In which he had to show up with energy and if and because it was David Allen's getting things done If he didn't show up at the front of the room Like people didn't sign up Yeah, so he couldn't offload it.  It's not fun I haven't read the book so but I'm just so He came up with a model for other people to get things done Including him and including him. Yeah But he's trapped by the business model of trying to you know, break free from from the same sort of stuff And and his model is easier to explain So getting things done roughly says in your head are a whole bunch of things he calls open loops Which is stuff. I know that I gotta get done.  These are like These are the that you get your to do things And your life will be better if you can get all of these open loops out of your out of your head And into a reliable system that you will check on all the time Okay That's the key is that you have to get them into a system that you're going to just work from And then he shows you how to break things down into tasks instead of big projects Uh, and then he gives you a sort of priorities like any tasks you can do in under two minutes Just go do it And then a bunch of other ways and I'm sure that the whole model has evolved a lot And then some to-do list Applications sort of tune themselves to this model because it's really it it lends itself really nicely to you know To do list prioritization or whatnot So it's cool. It's it's it's you know, it's cool as a way to get things done And then then what right Well, I guess the piece that's missing for me is What's the motivational piece of it? Like some things you have to get done and then there's those things that you want to do And so what forces you back to doing those things? Um Exactly and then like what's a priority and what's not? Uh, I mean all those questions are are big questions And I'm just wondering if we're in the right room or whatnot. I'm checking to see if anybody's messaging us and nobody yet So I think we're in the right place To just pivot a little bit because this is another thing So, you know in ogm There's not a lot of like venture capitalists or people that are constantly thinking about money Which is almost a shame In it in the reverse way because we're using old business models that That like I don't see a sustainable business model For the small guy Like I don't see the system where the money's like when you were talking about the commons and ogm And I mean I I again when you talk about the commons I could be wrong. This is like um, like a metaphor, right? There's not an actual entity That well, it's like the internet is not one entity, right? Okay, and the so there's old commons and new commons the old commons are things like aquifers and fisheries and forests And healthy soil and clean air. Those are all commons And the and the prototypical one is the the village green where people graze their sheep, right? And if you have too many sheep on the commons, you over graze. There's the tragedy of the commons, which is like a bad meme actually And so the new commons are the information commons and their dynamics are different because if I if I copy some open source code over to my hard drive The open source code that exists in the world is not diminished at all And in fact, you could argue it's improved because if I looked at the code and said, ah, here's a fix and I submitted a fix Then that open source code just got more productive got more powerful got more secure got more something Because of my my easy participation So so the new commons or information commons and there's many of them But it's like it's like kind of anywhere. There's a disk drive that is open for access is kind of part of the new commons I think And there's some major bodies of work in the new commons. So the wikipedia Which uses open source code called wiki media as its engine for building a wiki has data that you could take You know somebody published a german wikipedia dictionary. I think somewhere Yeah, and that's totally like up to anybody to do you can go do that um And so there's and there's hundreds of foundations each of which is holding Like the apache foundation is where apache software lives linux foundation mozilla foundation you name it And those are all part of the commons and then there's data commons Which are big databases big pools of data that are shared shareable Buildable all those kinds of things and then there's other kinds of commons kind of in this space That would have to do with ideas pattern languages, you know higher level stuff than than just a a bucket of a bucket of data And all of that is in the commons Okay, but there's so but there's no So there's no funding of the commons because there's no entity to fight like when I think of like pbs You know and you know they take donation. There's none of that So there is a bunch of that because each of the foundations I've just mentioned raises funds so that they can have staff So that they can actually take care of these things And and a model I really like so when linux first comes out linux is a An open source version of unix which was an An invention of at&t's bill laboratories a long time ago and has a long and twisty history Um, but at some point this this guy named linus torval says I would like to have a version of of unix that runs on my pc Would anybody like to join me? That's his that's his plausible promise and then people join and suddenly they They create this thing called linux which then runs on just about anything you can kind of move linux to anything and then A series of vendors show up who make a living Selling linux distributions. They're called which is we've taken linux It's exactly the same linux and we've piled on it a bunch of utilities and we've made it work in this kind of environment Or especially for these kinds of applications and they made a good living There are a whole bunch of those distributions Some of those companies are still around and those were for profit businesses Who a piece of whose task it was to make sure that linux and whatever other pieces of open source software They were using just kept getting better. Otherwise their competitive advantage goes away, right? So so they would devote some of their paid staff to helping make sure linux was it was was improving for everybody And that's different because before like each company would have its own software and not worry about anybody else Okay, but no but no money gets funneled back to the original people that jumped on to make it better in the first place um depends I mean what happens a lot is that the inventors say things wind up figuring out what other role they want to play or Or they they apply for grants. I mean a lot of these people formed up foundations and became the heads of the foundations Uh, and then received grant money and took a salary from the grants Then that's fine, but you see what you see what happens in real life like just like watching these polls Once the whole idea of money and profit gets into the mix People get really tense and uptight and will that have will they do you know what i'm what i'm trying to say Sure, I mean it I guess I was I guess I was wondering if there was like a hybrid type where you like unionize and form a cooperative But where there's a real mechanism that you know some of it is going to come back into the cooperative and Members of the fact cooperative will actually get like a dividend almost um So yes, there's a whole bunch of ways of setting these things up Uh, including co-ops including now dows digital autonomous, uh decentralized Autonomous organizations and a bunch of other things so I think I think your question is great and and um, I think other people would probably know better than I what the alternatives are and and other ways of doing all this Yeah, I thought a lot about dows and I mean I actually started charting something But I I wanted to ask you that because I wasn't sure if there was actual like the other question I had is Why couldn't What you're doing when you're talking about making money? Why couldn't that be a for-profit entity? with a different arm That was which part do me your your point your um I guess it was designed from trust or yeah So what I'm envisioning I mean there's lots of different models to do this I I used to do a lot of work with the institute for the future Which is a non-profit that was set up like 40 years ago and they pay salaries They're you know, they they chug along and they're a non-profit What I was envisioning was a for benefit of some sort that would be a consultancy That might be a co-op might be a an LLC or something else But would help would probably need one of those kinds of formal structure That would live atop the ogm kind of Commons or or or ecosystem or whatever else you want to call it And and my wish is that the things that are created in design from trust as a consultancy Are as much as possible fed back into the commons That you know when when we they invent the new process that they're like here's how the process works and boom They create a pattern language or a process or something and say here everybody else Uh, you know, you're welcome to use it and and improve it and if you improve it and put it back here We will add your improvements and say thank you Yeah, and I was wondering if the consultancy Could be a benefit for people working in the commons Whereas if they're not part of the commons they pay high price So one of the interesting things to do one interesting business model one that I like a lot is you pay for privacy So as long as you're willing to keep your work open and share it out You pay nothing for using the platform The moment you want to have privacy and you want to make it yours Then you pay good money because the software is pretty good and you do it yourself And I don't know whether github works that way I don't know whether source forge worked that way But I think so where these were these were places where people put open source code, you know for programs Um and github kind of killed source forge Because it had a different form of improving software. It had a different format for doing so But um But I think it's I think that's a really nice business model because some people definitely want privacy And they don't really want to play in the commons But they their work should their use of the tools should subsidize Other people's work in the commons totally and it's a way to shift where you're drawing money from You know, you know, you're you're pulling from the top instead of pulling from the bottom Exactly exactly I know you might have more better things to do. I don't know what you want to do I'm here for the thursday call and i'm just looking to make sure that that um We're not in the wrong place or something like that and I think we're in the right place So it is what it is one of those days And i'm happy. I'm you always ask good questions and you're you're helping take us in the right direction. So uh Happy to talk about these things That's all I got um So there's some questions about like what does og me mean which which I'd love to Just start talking about if you're up if you're up for that conversation. Yeah, um And part of the problem is that ogm is this big squishy vision Uh that includes things like the geeky stuff. We were just talking about In particular an emphasis, I think on mapping visualization argumentation Things like that, but also then storytelling Which is different which is not, you know, the same as argumentation or visualization. It's a form of visualization. I guess too um And there's this whole layer of like tools to do those things But then ogm also cares about like just the nature of discourse and trust And the fact that if we can't actually sit down with each other, there's no use for these tools of fancy visualization Or even or even nurturing trustworthy data because if nobody's going to pay attention to the data We're all sunk, right Yeah, and and so so I think behaving in an ogm-y way or doing ogm-y things means Uh nurturing the commons means um And and this is the part we haven't done very much of which is why it's sort of maybe mysterious or maybe not not set down much But but when we start saying things and making claims and making arguments and stuff like that to actually model them and to actually find Why did we say this and and you know, how does that all fit together? To use the tools that we're talking about for the conversations that we're having By which I don't mean that we should endlessly unpack every phrase that we say which If you take into the extreme, that's what that's where it goes to right? It's like it's like somebody makes a passing comment and it gets analyzed and Chattel logged and whatever, but how do we take like the shiny little nuggets? that show up in conversation and pull them out and also The moments of tension or the moments of of really interesting questions that came out so last thursday, we had some conversation around There hasn't been enough research done on the effects of covid And the vaccines and all that kind of stuff We had a we had a like a couple moments during last week's call that I was interested in revisiting this week And part of that I think is slowing down The process of conversation which we don't do enough of here And then part of it is unpacking or maybe adam grunt would say complexifying the issue Which means that's the great question the question isn't binary It's actually pretty like it has a lot of layers to it. Let's see if we can't agree on what the layers of the question are And then let's see Excuse me If we can't figure out where those layers fit and how they work together. So that kind of thing Um, let me pause for a second and see if that's making sense Yeah, no, it's absolutely making sense. I think that Excuse me for one second Okay, um Yeah, it does it does make sense The problem is that the examples that come up are so charged and it would be nice if we could Take topics that aren't as charged and run them through the same model Then go back to the topic that's charged It'll be good. I'd love that. Um And as practice rounds we could actually sort of sit and do that So we could we could set aside a different call and pick a pick a neutral topic and and and practice that a couple times I think that'd be actually super useful In practice what ends up happening is somebody asks a really hard question And then you've got the hard question in front of you And some and maybe the only way through that question past that question is through that question and to do the process with the hard question. I don't know and You know hard questions bring emotions to bear and make people really present and sometimes lead to a lot of strafe and sometimes Like lead to resolution But like even shifting the topic from vaccinations To a different drug right That could be the difference right there because I don't I mean I understand the point there are We do I know myself when I start to hear people talking about Anything that sounds like a reason not to get a vaccination The wall goes up a little bit But there is some validity there But it would be easier to show a different drug first Because then you could say okay How much emphasis do we put on this? How much emphasis do we put on the risks of this? Let's apply that same emphasis Now we can continue the conversation Or maybe we need to step outside of medicine all together and practice in a different Theme because because if we shift to I mean an argument I would make is hey if you scroll back like 150 years Childhood was pretty fatal a lot. Like kids used to die of a lot of things And and and we were much better acquainted with death Like people people just died to burpulosis, which was called consumption Which they tried to go to a sanatorium But nobody really knew what caused it until they figured it out Like they were all in smallpox and mumps and measles and all that many of them were fatal Certainly polio And a bunch of others and and we slowly you know chipped away and eradicated a lot of them got rid of one or two And we have no memory of that Like like, you know, that's a conversation I think is interesting But it's still very much freighted about medicine and vaccines and the high isn't science great like And I'm traveling back 150 years in time to try to get away from the present dilemma But clearly I'm making an argument about the present dilemma in some sense, right? So I don't know how to I'm not expert in figuring out within the same domain how to find a safer space for the for the topic Right And I would love to have good advice on on how to choose your way through that Um, so I made friends recently with the author of the book of questions He wrote it back in 1987. His name is gregory stock greg stock and very interesting guy And he's figured out almost like an algorithm for asking interesting but sort of neutral questions Meaning most of his questions come out not politically charged And there's still questions you're interested in sitting down and answering and some of them are just hypotheticals if you were in this situation, you know If you could live forever, but be poor versus blah blah blah, which one would you choose that kind of question? I do the same thing a lot when I start conversations. I think that's a great way to Well, he's coming up with an app with a freemium app, you know, all that kind of stuff so I've had that conversation a little bit with him and and he's From my perception not that interested in taking this into political realms He's interested in this being useful for relationship establishment trust creation Dating whatever like, you know, it's it's really a useful dating instrument. It's like, hey, let's sit down and answer a couple tough questions over Over drinks, you know, that that's interesting And I'm like I'm somehow really interested in like how do we take this into the hard conversations because Because we're we're faced with really difficult things right now from pandemics to climate to racism and whatnot And unless we sort out how to get through them They're going to sink us Well, the reason I like, you know, what he's talking about for a first question Is everybody's going to take the question from their own perspective and it's a really good clue to see what somebody's needs are Where they're coming from exactly and and when there's questions like immortality or You know wealth or or whatever on the table as part of the question You hear what people think about like, you know, I'm surprised a couple times I've asked audiences like, okay, if you if you could live to be 500 years old, but feel like you're 40 You know, you'd be pretty healthy unless you got run over by a truck Um, who would do that and like very few people want to live to 500 years very I would love to I like put put me on that boat like like I would love to do that um Yeah, it's a little bit like groundhog day except you never get to repeat the day But you're there forever. Oh, man, that'd be that'd be a lot of pain That's life is not always easy. That's a lot of well and and I think the assumption is nobody else gets to live that long so You wind up seeing all your friends live and die live and die, right? That's then that's clearly hard That's clearly hard um So, yeah But I I I mean I I I I do understand why you'd want to it's similar to you know People would say do you want to come back to the you know to reincarnate again? And there are times that I say no way. I'm never coming back. I want to be done And then there are other times that I say, you know what? Yes, I do I want to I want to try again and it would be fun to be something else and Depends give me a little do-over. Come on, please Can I have the do-over? um I know agreed um So again, yeah, the biggest issue and you know when he talks about questions and relationships It's really undervalued how important relationships are In business not just in relationship on the ground level People will go further for somebody that they're connected to Obviously, and you know, I feel like that gets overlooked a lot not with see the people that come to ogm There's a greater concentration here of people that are really I mean I find there's a greater self-awareness here And there's also a greater connectivity to the rest of the world. They see those connections That's not to say that other groups don't but there are certain groups that proportionally have a lot less of that They are less trusting. They are more concerned with protecting themselves. They want to do good things. I'm not saying they're not kind But it's really hard to do good things when you're always afraid somebody's going to take advantage of you Exactly So the relationship Which takes us back a little bit to your comments about money coming into a A community or a conversation like this, which we can go back to as well Um, so years ago, I moved from Manhattan out to san francisco like 1998 and I helped Eric greenberg start a company called science, which you may not remember but science was one of the dot com Kind of like they went public their stock went spectacularly high then they crashed hard later And I helped them create the initial pitch deck and one of my little statements made it through the pitch deck And it was like transactions are the byproduct of successful relationships Yeah And that became a piece of their code a piece of way to know how they approach projects And I don't know how I don't know whether got baked into their methodology or whatnot But but and then in 2010 I started to think all the relationship economy expedition or rex Uh, which if you go to linkedin, I still haven't sort of swapped over to to ogm but but but I I was really irritated by visions of the attention economy and the experience economy Specifically because in the attention economy the idea is attention is our scarce resource And so it's all about fighting over getting you know, somebody else's attention and I'm like You know, I have friends I haven't seen for a decade and I spend no time with them They have no none of my attention right now But if they showed up tomorrow and said I need some help I would drop things and help them Like they have all my you know all my loyalty and respect, right Right, but the other way to look at that I mean, I see the the negative part of it, but the positive part of it is Your attention is worth something right these friends that you haven't seen for so long You're dropping everything because they are a value to you But not on a permitted basis They're a value to me in my life Yeah But I think the point I'm trying to make is And I'm agreeing with you. I'm just looking at a different way Is that you know, these people that are designing software or whatever they're trying to grab our attention at all costs It doesn't matter if they turn us into zombies There's not they don't care about that when we should be valuing our attention. We should be They have to win our attention Right, but there has to be There's a reason they're getting our attention like when like facebook There's a reason so many people are on facebook doing whatever they're doing They're getting a need filled whether they realize it or not and that's that need to be heard That's why I keep preaching the things that I do because I'm where I would like to help those I don't know 70 80 percent. I don't know how much what percentage But if we don't help them to find fulfillment We're gonna just you know eat each other right. I totally agree. I totally agree Yeah storytelling is you know important and having their stories heard and I don't know something has to shift in the I mean, I said this to you before and I really mean this The fourth estate should truly be owned by the people Mm-hmm And that and that revenue should feed itself like that is the only I can't think of any other Sustainable system other than by looking at Our economy as an attention economy and seeing how we would make that flow Um by which do you mean that we would reward writers of articles by how many people clicked on their article? No, well, that's how an attention economy might work and I think that might work that way. I think that that's bad for journalism I agree and it might work that way. Yeah, but like all right so part of shimon's project and I don't understand the whole thing, you know, you know, especially like, you know the plat the tech stuff, but If we if the people were actually creating it Then it's their work product that's being created right and then that's a different way I mean, I'm not he doesn't talk about anything about charging that I'm not I don't mean to draw that Parallel I'm just talking in terms of If the people are creating something then the people are getting paid for it. Like for example, let's just make it up and say that Facebook was selling Like let's say facebook charged Or no that doesn't work either People well, they don't they do do it that way I always felt that facebook should like pay the new york times and then the new york time should be given to us for free That would be our payment for our attention That's that kind of a and and I think I think Facebook and or google are making some small payments to some media some news enterprises But I've forgotten who and how much but that kind of came across the radar pretty Shockingly recently. I don't think that you know that that hasn't been going on for long But I think they were trying to do some of that because because they're realizing, you know, and craigslist kind of Craigslist kicked one of the legs out from under journalism, which is part of the reason why craig newmark funds a lot of journalism research and and other kinds of things at this point At least I think there's a causal relationship there because Sure so So newspapers used to make money from advertisements classifieds and subscriptions. Those are the three legs of their of their stool mostly right And the average basically the the the classifieds got nuked by craigslist Okay, yes, because craigslist craigslist is basically self-service free Classifieds right and for you know for your locality with with with much better search than newspapers were able to provide We and and you didn't have to sit down and talk to an operator who was going to misspell your entry And you weren't being charged by the syllable or the character and like all that stuff was like terrific And and so there there goes a third of newspapers revenue, right? And then and then advertising winds up becoming web advertising and they're still struggling with that And and there are publications where I land on their page to try to read an article And there are 50 things that invade the page and I'm just like irritated and angry at them and and and Even some places where I pay subscriptions. They still put a whole bunch of and I'm like, no, no I'm paying you money so that you stop putting those things in so that I can actually read the content that I think You were alleged to be interested in showing me And then subscriptions have died a lot although Although during times like trump, you know subscriptions shot way up, you know, I think I think Trump becoming President in 2016 Was great for the new york times digital subscriptions like their subscriptions shot up like crazy And and and this is a side conversation But it's sort of interesting in terms of the attention economy trump understood that cnn and everybody else could not turn off their lens from him That they were benefiting from showing the circus he was putting on And he made sure that the circus was always right out at the edge of what was possible And never too far weirdly. I don't understand. He has this he has some sense of the instinct What would be like a step too far? He could he could say I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody And nobody, you know, everybody'd be fine, but he didn't go and try to shoot somebody in the middle of Fifth Avenue That's probably good Um, but but he had a real I think sense of where that boundary was and he was always pushing that boundary because we get used to the last thing It's like well Okay, so he did that so he can't do that again And the next thing has to escalate a little bit or he doesn't get the attention You know that dynamic and that's all about attention and the attention economy and arguably Arguably he became president because he understood those dynamics better than anybody else Right and on on my wish list of things that had happened in the past During one of the debates between clinton and and trump I wish that jeff sucker who was in charge of cnn news And took the cameras on me and had stared at the camera and said my friends. We've been hacked I don't mean and I don't mean that chinese or russian hackers are in our servers, which they probably are What I mean is the man we're showing you has figured out how to use us against you And until we figure this out better, we're going to show you a lot less if you And they they I don't know that it was even possible maybe for them to do that But they could have done that Right and if they had sat if they had sat back and stopped giving him the oxygen Maybe the fire wouldn't have burned so bright Yeah, well, you're absolutely right about about him in terms of he is really good at lighting the match and walking What he's a fire ship.  Yeah You'd have like fleets sail next to each other and try to shoot each other with cannon One of the right tactics was you take an old ship one that one that's like creaky and old You load it up with turpentine and everything flammable You push it you you set sail and you shove it toward where the where the fleet is thickest and you set it on fire Uh, and sometimes people like sail it close and then they jump overboard and swim back to the fleet kind of thing Um, yeah, trump was kind of a fire ship for democracy And he was an expert at reality tv So he really understands people's motivations and he really knows who he can put together to most likely get the desired effect and uh Yeah, yeah, I see so so we've gone into sort of darker waters, but But how much could it cost to have a reasonable layer of journalists funded well across the country really like considering how much we pay for Um, which I hope we never have to use Why isn't there a service corps? Right of journalists that are going back to what you said. Why are they not subsidized supported by the government in some sense? right And the other thing I want to say is the reason that trump was able to orchestrate this is that he really understands a lot about human behavior But particularly about the 80 percent of the people The people that aren't doing big things and the great things And how could we take that same knowledge because basically they want to be respected They want to be valued. He made them feel that How do we take that same that same knowledge about what they're looking for and as howard thurman says help people to come alive And there are a lot of very smart people out there. And that's why I keep going back to facebook If they were supported to co-create An accurate reporting type thing and that's what I mean when I keep saying people running the fourth estate people becoming the fourth estate owning the fourth estate And what I like like maybe shimon's project is going towards that. I don't know but that's what that's what sparked my interest in wanting to know more um agreed um And a piece of what i'm hoping ogm does is help tease out people like howard thurman and a bunch of others who've got really great ideas Make their ideas more popular weave those ideas into the common knowledge of what we know like like we don't we don't have a place We've got wikipedia Which is kind of mostly facts and stuff, right? And then we've got google which everybody turns to for search which kind of won the search wars And we don't have a lot else in terms of a structure of what we know We just not a lot. There's like the blogosphere and the twitterverse And that's good, but those are those are like pouring past us all the time. They don't really like make a Context for doing stuff. So how can we weave that context so that these great ideas get put to work? I think we have to start looking at projects and add that to the rubric of how successful a plan is Because a lot of people have very well intention But there still seems to be a split between what we have to do and we're pragmatic and we need to make money and we need to do this and Yes, and we want to uplift people and we want to nurture them That one secondary that one will do that after we get here and it doesn't work that way It has to work together. So maybe there has to be a little bit of looking at well, what are our goals? You know, so you mean for GM or you mean as a society in general In general, you know, I mean we've been taught like the most efficient method, you know, we want less people What about if we switched that? What if we said something is more successful the more people we need to do it, you know And that's where what's go ahead. I'm sorry. I was interrupting you go ahead When Scott mentions breaking things down into pieces I think that that also is good for many reasons one of which being It helps other people contribute in little ways Just to feel part of a whole because feeling like you're part of a whole is really really really important And it's not a yes, but If we really agree, it's important then we really have to make an effort to make that happen So feeling part of a whole is like central here. I think and and for example Um, I think that there's a bunch of people behind the curtain on the alt right the far right Who are busy doing crazy high fives and chewing each other When when joe bob's peppy the frog gift goes viral and really pisses off those liberals and makes the liberals cry Like like whoever whoever's gift won the day that day is feeling really good and feeling a sense of community They didn't have before this thing materialized for them so so for me A huge reason why a bunch of people have banded together to do this insurgency And I think of the alt rise as an insurgency that that understands a lot of the dynamics of how media work How power works all those kinds of things and they're busy pulling on those levers with all their might With all their might while the left is like hey, there's social justice. Hey the planet's on fire Hey, we've got 50 different issues all of which are really important But the left doesn't really pull on the levers and unison much It doesn't know how right and and so when you get everybody unified even if you're a minority Um, you can actually sort of win power and that's that's what seems to have happened That's where we are right now. We're in this weird weird position But this feeling of belonging is super important.  So Yasser Arafat was the head of the plo the people the Palestinian liberation organization He was getting no attention and then the plo pulled off the munich olympics Kidnappings of the Israeli athletes in 1972 which turns into the helicopters blowing up and is a is a real disaster And he's got 300 trained kind of terrorist guerrillas in this in this black september organization That's what they ended up being called Well that incident gets yasser invited to the negotiating table And all of a sudden yasser kind of has what he wants which is he's he's he's being invited So he doesn't really want terrorist incidents to happen right now But he's got 300 trained killers who are just like thirsty to go out and do some damage So what did they do they put out a call across the Arab crescent and they say Young women of the Arab crescent the chairman needs you He creates a dating game for these terrorists Marries them off gives them a gives them a bonus if they get married gives them a bonus If they have a child they'll get a tv they'll get a flat they'll get an extra five grand or something I don't know what it was But he basically successfully melts an organization of 300 terrorists and then they test them a decade later They test these guys by offering them Assistant ambassador or something or other ships around the world Like you can have this this notable position that's paid well in another country But all of these guys know that their names are on lists and if they leave the country They're going to be arrested and spend the rest of their lives in jail So none of them accept these these nice positions because they don't want to lose their families Right, so so a ton of this a ton of this I think is about community And then a ton of it is about how we see our future if we think our future is going to be crappy And you know if we think our kid's future is going to be crappier than we than ours and then our grandparents We're going to be willing to break a lot of things or do a lot of dangerous things to try to not have that happen Well again, so i'm drawing the parallel between The people on facebook Especially the people that are on the right that are yelling the loudest and just looking to fight over anything Yeah if The way Arifat gave them another road to take we gave them another road to use those same skills Absolutely, absolutely and and so So one of the one of the projects that's starting to grow up and become a thing right now is klaus muggers food Systems redesign project And we've had a couple really good calls and stuff and planning over the last couple days And so I think that's going to turn into a regular weekly call and some project plans and a website and initiative and a piece of sort of the center idea for him is this this notion of innovation brokers Who go into farming communities because his project is about regenerative agriculture It's not about revitalizing cities or other things and there are plenty of things broken You know in towns across the country and across the world, but he's focused on regenerative agriculture So he wants to send innovation brokers who understand resources methods Whatever and can sit and tell stories and and then make connections for people on the ground In different settings. Awesome. There could easily be a service corps, you know, just like there's a You know vista or a peace corps or you name it There's several really really lovely and interesting service corps There could be a service corps for regenerative agriculture Um, and it could have funding, you know, there could be stipends there could be whatever and and the resource base that these people draw on and feed Could be very og me in the sense of You know, uh, it could be linked. It could be open. It could be available And wherever there's controversy, we could figure out how to unpack the controversy and like test experiments and whatever else and and and I'm hopeful about that. I think that that's really interesting and then I look up and I'm like Well, okay, and then monsanto is going to do what? Because because monsanto has decided that the you know, science is the way forward and we're going to we're going to put a gene into seeds So they don't actually germinate and replicate again, which I think is a crime against humanity personally Um, we're going to make sure we're going to we're going to breed some of our crops so that they're resistant to the pesticides we sell Which it turns out some bugs are already immune to anyway Like like like we're getting super bugs because this whole cycle just runs, you know, nature finds away as as jeff goldblum So famously says in Jurassic Park um and and so That's going to happen at the same time as claus is out here trying to stand up some innovation brokers So let's stand up the innovation brokers and see if we can't help people find a way to do this and And and the reality of the political battles and the corporate battles is just reality That's just like that's just the super in right now And if we can find a way To diffuse that energy And I mean both it's funny. I mean both defuse to remove the fuse but also diffuse in the sense of dissipate Right, if we can find a way to diffuse and diffuse diffuse that energy And or convert it transform it into hey, that sounds like a good idea I think I'll go along with this and we're going to make some money from doing this, right It's I heard al gore speak in front of a crowd like 10 years ago. I think And his first statement was I don't understand why conservatives don't see greening the economy as a huge economic opportunity I don't get why they won't say wow that sounds like a lot of good business And biden ran on Green business like this is going to be the green economy where this is of all about jobs jobs jobs jobs Right because he knew it wasn't about The peacenik saved the earth stuff because no conservative nobody in the middle is going to vote for that So so there's this really like weird dangerous interesting moment that we're in where if we can figure out how to save the fourth estate and have them Report in in a way that's credible if we can figure out how to get people who have Who are credible and can build trust and have access to really great stories and knowledge and resources If we can figure out how to help wealthy There's a lot of money sloshing around that doesn't know what to do If we can get a bunch of that money into pools of responsible investment That's interesting right I think the idea of I mean, I think I mentioned it before like the truth and justice podcast. I think the idea of Sort of leading people or guiding or sending them out on a mission To find the truth and using that sense of play again. I'm focused on the 80 percent Yeah, I'm focused on the people on facebook to be able to get them engaged In finding answers because then they're working together and I've seen it happen and it's it's incredible the same with you know, when we talk about Plos's project and I say If if you had the lesson plan so that the kids were going home and doing their own Community mapping and talking to their parents and oh, yeah, the community garden right down the street And then, you know, you're building that social fabric so that people want to become involved um Yeah, I think that's that's a huge part of it. I this weekend I was up in woodstock new york and I was talking to somebody who What he does is he starts community gardens. That's what he does.  There's a lot of good video to watch Alas on this topic I'm really interested though in finding the people that were able to start something without any help That had to do it, you know, that's what I'm interested in your everyday person That figured out a way to do it. Those are the stories that if we can tell we empower other people to do the same And connect those stories Yeah, yeah So can you say more about that? Like, do you know any any instances or are you just saying like you want to hear more of them? um I don't know enough to be able to go into detail I know like in nyak where I live I know the businesses work with the farmers, you know, the local farmers I don't know enough the detail about it I do know that when I went to sign up to work in my community garden, there's a waiting list like you can't believe Yeah, yeah And even uh, I remember the high school That my son went to and I'm to this particular son So this an angry kind of kid But he really benefited from working in the garden You know, and I'd like to see I'd like to see the mental wellness component tied in Yeah, absolutely And that's just super critical Um, let me scroll back a second about the waiting list for community gardens So what that means to me is that there's a lot of demand for community garden Either for working in it and digging around at it making a piece of the you know, having your own plot Or just for produce and you know veggies off off the off the plot But I'm assuming it's people who wanted to create their own plot inside the community garden, correct And I'm assuming that there's empty plots around No There's no there's no land to make other community gardens on Uh, I mean again, like I said, I don't know enough to go into it. No, I don't I don't think there are Oh, that's weird. I mean like in a city like Detroit Some one third of the housing stock has just been raised because it was so damaged and like they're they're systematically taking it down So in a place like Detroit, there's a lot of land you can turn into Assuming you can remediate the land, but probably these are probably not superfund sites. That was just a house, right? um So so there's a lot of places to do that, but I guess and you are you talking specifically nyak or or like Well, I've only checked in nyak because that's where I lived and I said, well, let me find out. Um I know actually now that I'm thinking about there is one in new city. It's a cooperative So it's you pay in and then you um, I do believe you work And you get a certain amount back. I think it's like a few hundred dollars that you pay for your vegetable So it's more like a cooperative, which is the different model altogether. Yeah, but but still same sort of same sort of work But but everybody sort of picks a role and does larger scale work, you know, right? If you don't have the five hundred dollars to join the cooperative, then you add a lot right And maybe there's ways of financing people in through sweat I could hear through through other kinds of financing or small loans or whatever to to get into the clubs um, don't know, uh, so So partly I'm asking that because I hear about like there's waiting lists for really good schools like Why? Why are good schools scarce? And I'm not I think, you know, I'm not a big fan of schools with the capital s Period and for me learning should be inexpensive and easily accessible anywhere on earth Um, and we should band together. I don't mean that we shouldn't get together to learn I think learning is a social event But there's no reason to militarize the whole thing and to make sure that, you know Only kids within eight six months of each other, you know, are in the same room kind of things like seriously people Why are we doing that? um So why are there waiting lists for the scarce resources called community gardens and good schools? I don't I don't know. Yeah, I don't I don't think there need to be I think it's dumb that that that's the world Right Yeah, well as far as school. I mean with schools. I actually think we should have trained facilitators and moderators And the lessons should be created by the very best. I mean like I sit here I watch like youtube videos of like robert sapolsky and i'm loving it Yeah, you know, why not have the best create the video material and then teach people to facilitate and moderate Better better qualified not I mean, you know I taught school when I was when I was in my early 20s I taught in new york city And I came in and I was like so excited. I love being with the kids And some of the teachers I they were old and bitter Yeah, and they truly looked at the kids as animals How can you be taught like that and it was very hard on a young teacher because God forbid you want to try something your own way. I know because you don't want to be mean and bitter So I think the whole school system should change Um, are you familiar with john taylor gotto? Okay, so do not pass go do not collect $200 Take a look at let me just give you uh, there's a website for the my favorite book of his which is the underground history of american education Um, and so there's a website where you can read the book for free. Uh, you can also Buy the book and paperback only I think So he was one of my openings into Half of my theories of how the world works So design from trust and all those kinds of things really are spillouts From some 30 years ago.  Don't work so slowly Um Sorry, I got to find a couple things here to send you links on the chat. Here's the name of the book Yeah, um, let me give you here's the name of the book Uh, here's a link to the book on amazon in case you want to buy it Here is this spot in my brain, which is I think totally worth navigating around Uh, and then Oh, I think actually I think this is a youtube video where somebody read the whole book. I think I'm not sure Yeah, I don't know if it's still there, but it's in my brain is that if you want to check that out and see if that actually Leads to that and then I know that the book is available online. I'm trying to figure out which one of these it is. Anyway, um He has a lot of really really really interesting stuff and he was he was a new york high school teacher Um, so in fact, he was getting a lot of awards For his teaching. So they started sending people into observe his classrooms And it turns out that the way he was winning awards was he was breaking all the rules of school Um, so so in the book he talks about what what we now think think about as the hidden curriculum of schooling And the hidden curriculum is the the explicit curriculum is I'm supposed to be trying to teach you math or english or french the hidden curriculum is When the bell rings you're supposed to put down everything and go to the next class and I really don't care if you were in the flow Like it's immaterial like like Nobody cares if you were like jamming on the poem And whatever there is no room for that because you're just a little cog in the wheel So your job here is to learn how to be a little cog in the giant machine. That is the economy When you know, I am god in the classroom.  I can say about the hidden architectures of mistrust So design from trust implies that we've been designing for mistrust And yes, we have and we have because we lost faith in humans somewhere along the road And we decided to build these large institutions because there's so many people And we had to build them in kind of coercive ways because otherwise people won't behave right And that assumption underlies almost all the institutions we have And I'm trying to say if we did the opposite If we started like Wikipedia does by assuming good intent and then figured out how to deal with the bad actors late and cleverly We might have very very very very very different systems now Right, and so I'm sort of saying this about every system But the door opened for me around gato and and and doc searles sent me an essay by gato called the six lessons school teacher I'll send you a link to that as well The six lessons the school teacher was kind of my doorway in and I'm like, oh, holy crap. This is really interesting Um My brain is moving very slowly. I think my machine is very confused right now. There we go. Um Do do do Where'd it go? I need to search for it with the now slow search function Um, so the six lessons school teacher was a short essay in the sun, which was a you know reader submitted Uh journal Um, and it just like woke me up. I'm like, well, that's that's really really interesting. Okay. Good. So I think I've got it Uh My brain's got to stop beach balling There we go Well, copy finally and now I can paste it into the chat. Okay Um So that's the six lessons school teacher later rewritten to include seven eight maybe even nine lessons But but this is sort of the the start of this notion of the hidden curriculum um And so a piece of what he says in the underground history is that american educators went to germany And they witnessed the prussian military school system that had been set up for bismarck To create a docile layer Of well educated and kind of prosperous people that would be fans of of bismarck So that he could control power Our educators copied that system and dropped it in and and they dropped it into 12 experimental schools in manhattan the first year And i'm making up the numbers and I don't remember what year At the end of that year, there were riots in the streets where horse mounted police injured parents and children Who were picketing saying this is a terrible system? We don't want this system the next year the system was rolled out across the whole manhattan the whole uh new york public school system and then the system gets rolled out across the country Including in gary indiana. I'm remembering there was like because gary was a company town So there was there a lot of this was was experimented with in gary indiana and then float across the country from there And we basically took hundreds of thousands of little one room school houses that were doing a fine job of educating americans and american citizens And we industrialized the whole thing. So then you get these I went I went to marina high school in huntington beach california Where there were 4 000 kids? I was one of 995 in my graduating class And I graduated a year ahead of my normal buddies. So I knew two people in my graduating class That was it right and I have no contact with anybody from from that school. It was a big industrial school um, and so This has happened all around our society right and now we're trying to hit undo or redo or reinvent or something But all this stuff is buried really really deep Like you hit on something When you said well first of all docile, you know the word docile just jumped out at bay and the citizenship part We're we're not teaching said it. We don't we don't want to teach that we want you to be done not wait The system is set up to keep you docile Yeah, um, I worked at I did an internship at the Dalton school in Manhattan. That was interesting Yeah, that was that was wonderful and it was totally the opposite of what we're talking about it was Just providing the materials and letting the kids find their interests and let them discover What worked? I remember we made bridges out of like toilet paper rolls We learned about tension and we I mean it was And it was always what do you think? You know, they'd come to you with a question. Well, what do you think? Okay, let's try it. Let's see, you know, it's like It's actually valuing making mistakes So you don't look at a mistake as a mistake. You look at a mistake as an experiment As a learning event. Yeah. So the last link I just put on here is to my TEDx talk, which is all about education I don't know if you've ever seen that No, okay, okay, so let me give you another talk because if you like that one I like YouTube videos. I I prefer that. I I had no my brain can't read anymore It's really hard. I finally got through a book because I had to yeah So I like this better and the six lessons school teachers are relatively short assay So that hopefully that that doesn't give you trouble But the last two YouTube links I put on I put in there one of them is my TEDx talk in 2012 And the other one I did it for the Las Vegas downtown project Like six or eight months later and it's it's a follow-on So I basically build on what I did in the first talk and they're both only about education Oh, and I've forgotten that you've done a bunch of teaching and all that so you might you might like them and a lot of the things that OGM enos sort of comes from have roots in these in these talks because it's all about Trust how to regain trust all those sorts of things Yeah And then let me give you another link while we're at it Um I did a video which was meant to be a draft. Uh, just I think during lockdown um Here we go and So it's not well produced and it's just me sitting in a chair talking about it But and I'd love to deepen it elaborate it produce it do more with it But let me send you that link also It's basically how I see the world like what happened to trust um, and and I think I have a sort of an unusual thesis that You know, uh, it accords with some people who've influenced how I see the world who are kind of non-standard thinkers Did you put it in? Yes, there should be a last youtube link in the chat the one that ends with p5c Okay, let me say but okay. Yeah. Yeah Sounds good. So that'll keep you busy on youtube for a while Yeah, well, thank you.  Uh, he's also trying to help class a lot. So I think we have a lot of resources to work with Yeah, I forgot how to do this Sounds good So we ready Shall we fold our call? Yeah, I think so. I'm sure you have stuff that you need to do Um, this this actually works better in my day. Um, having because I have a little transit time I have a desk I can use nearby and this gives me actually time between calls to transit So that's great. It's nice talking to you. I will see you next week. Same here. Thanks. Stacey Bye


French tanks are not suitable for counter-attack of Ukraine. A Ukrainian military commander has reportedly raised concerns that light combat tanks supplied to the former Soviet Republic by France aren't suitable for attacks against Russian defence lines because their thin armour can easily be pierced by artillery shells and other weapons. Touted earlier this year by Ukrainian Defence Minister Alexei Reznikov as a sniper rifle on fast wheels, the French AMX-10RC armoured fighting vehicle has proven impractical during Kiev's current counter-offensive against Russian forces, Asians France Press reported. One four-man crew has died because of the tank's thin armour which can easily be pierced by Russian weaponry, a Ukrainian battalion commander told the media outlet. Unfortunately there was one case when the crew died in the vehicle, said the 34-year-old Ukrainian Major whom agency identified only by his called sign Spartanets. There was artillery shelling and a shell exploded near the vehicle. The fragments pierced the armour and the ammunition set detonated. However, Spartanets said the French tanks have proven to be ineffective in front-line assaults. The guns are good, the observation devices are good but unfortunately there is thin armour and it is impractical to use them in the front line, he said. Just sending out the vehicle so they get destroyed, I consider it is impractical and unnecessary because it's primarily a risk for the crew. The Ukrainian commander added that the AMX-10RC's also has been pegged by breakdowns in their gearboxes possibly because of their use on dirt roads. Kiev's troops received one month of training in France which wasn't adequate to master operating the vehicle, he said. The 20-turn AMX-10RC travels on wheels rather than tracks. It was developed in the 1970s for armed reconnaissance and attacks on tanks.