Yeah, that was rough yeah, but then But then when I dumped rumble the stream to rumble and was just hanging out in on YouTube DT showed up Nice, okay, I don't know how long he was there, but I did see him So we're here. Oh, he was at home. He was at home He he was he was at home on his home PC All right, we're live. So don't say anything. It's gonna get me demonetized or canceled There's no editing this week. I'll be Jake got it There's no editor No, there will be no editing All right sweet Okay, I promise to be a good boy So I got that going got that going the event has officially started Okay So we haven't we haven't done with it one with a topic yet before so I'm not sure How we want to start this off and I'm sure we're gonna go on some major tangents as we go through so Just Yeah, it's gonna be good What is it how would you fix linux if you could With ideas I have some ideas about this like legitimately All right, so Why don't we just go ahead? Yeah, it's okay. It's gonna be good because Jake's first in the chat So he gets to go first We've been canceled already and he's just look at it. He's look at him. He's canceled written on his forehead You want to see this used to be a people person Yeah, so Jake, how would you fix linux if you could custom kernel Guaranteed exactly clang as well Clang Full LTO, of course thinker with mold with mold as the linker All right, Jake go ahead take us off. Yeah, you get to start us. Oh I don't know what would I fix about linux? I mean, yes, it really depends, you know, there's you know What your use case is because you can come across so many different problems But I guess my most common issue would be like I want more data recovery tools, right? Like like file systems like EXT for have good data recovery tools, right? But our FS is pretty good with that stuff. There's other five F2 FS if you use F2 FS and you Screw up that partition at all. All of that data is gone. You're not getting it back like see you. Bye They were talking about be cat be cash FS on Linux matters the other day. I've never actually heard it, but that just made it into the kernel be cash FS that supposedly has like the supposedly the the stability of XFS or whatever it is and The data recovery stuff in the snapshots of butterfests, I'm interested to try it I didn't know that you could do that but All I know about be cash FS is it's supposed to replace butterfests for some reason Oh, you remember those those were the days though. Come on in just Every night every 90 days get on there and just get into the windows defrag tool and watch the pretty colors. It was It warm up your room, you know, cuz it you know create a lot of heat and it would also provide some nice background noise just in case I'll say right background noise windows update module work code. Everybody's doing it. They go 50% my CPU just to install an update before time to restart seriously Windows takes 10% of your CPU just a idle Run No, it's about true right there, I know when precisely when my system was updated Six minutes in already bashing windows. It's a record We get rid of windows I Sort of something else that I think should be mentioned here is that like there's no auto-tune for Linux like I mean the last one Like apparently there was one that people were working on like 15 years ago But like it doesn't work with like the modern stack at all and like I've Look, I have like I think I've done some good research on this But like there's basically no auto-tune for Linux Well audio tools on like big audio big Audio editing tools and stuff like that Those are always there's audacity and stuff Right like that's not auto-tune like, you know big big Dax and stuff like that are like on Linux either Auto-tune is in like auto-tune in like a DAW or you mean like just like a like a Plug-in that you do on like James DSP or pulse effects. I don't know like sort of a Have you heard of the commercial product called audio of like auto-tune is like No, what I hear like it provides like a bunch of plugins for a different auto audio editors And then like I can also filter your voice through it and like I see what you're saying. Yeah real-time Stuff like I don't know discord calls or something Right, so it provides VSTs that you could use into like say like, you know like like PreSonus has now released the studio one For Linux and you could use it but you can use it on Ubuntu But it would provide those kind of plugins for that is what you're saying Yeah, that's that's what the commercial product provides like it doesn't provide any for Linux and you know, well, so To speak to that actually you have focus right, you know who focus right is No, okay focus right is another is another studio grade vendor that is making interfaces and audio equipment right for Use in home as well as in like, you know studios Along with pre sonus. I'm sure you've heard of pre sonus, right and Mackie and those guys. Yeah a bit Yeah, okay, so those two have now entered the Linux fear pre sonus is actually paying a guy who wrote Code to make their focus right USB interface Mixer to work with Linux. So they're they're they're putting money behind development and pre sonus is actually hired the actual development or team that is actually Yes, I'm currently only available in Not Bob now You got the hold on a second Alex Yeah, I've got some feedback on Leverian's feed. I want to meet you Leverian.  There you go We were hearing Alex like five times. It was great That's a way to take over Yeah, so so I've actually been in contact with pre sonus and they're In the middle of putting a core team together that they've got developing for and they're actually going to make it available for because I was like hey guys, uh, there's multiple different distributions of Of you know, Linux out there that that are not Ubuntu that could really You know help you out with this project if you guys really want and so let's make the core the source code available So that that way we can compile it ourselves or just you know into a fashion You know like a tar ball or something like that that we could do so that we could actually all help you with this And so they're they're they're looking at compiling that and getting it soon But that'd be they're going to have in the studio one They have the autotune and all those plugins in there But you can get because if you get studio one You will be able to download their whole entire vst plugin library So that is coming the audio sphere for linux is going to be improved drastically Within the next really great to hear and thanks a bunch. I've learned a lot Hey, no problem. You're welcome, brother Audio has always been one of those areas where the professional tools Audio and video really right? I mean you don't have any of the Adobe stuff photo photo editing things like that The photo editing is we've kind of we have alternative tools, but Audio editing video editing both of those have you know, we have alternatives, but they're not quite Professional level like audacity exists, but it's not you know, the best thing ever Also, it's only recently really started to truly improve in terms of ui and actual tools I don't know if you guys have actually paid attention, but they've added a ton of different plugins lately Um, I really wish they did get to work on a better user interface, but that's beside the point In terms of like video editing we have kid in live and that's literally it Like I know I know everybody like oh olive exists and shot put and or shot cut or whatever Those are all like alpha software not very good Where's Nate when you need him he'll tell you exactly how much davinci actually works on linux I think he has one he still doesn't work that's literally that's literally the one thing you actually need an nvidia for It's actually good in linux for Okay, so let me ask answer this question since I how my face is actually next in line um So I think that if I were to if there I if I could choose one thing to fix And I don't want to reiterate making butter fs the default, you know file system, which is was my original choice. Thanks jake Uh I think that I would probably Get rid of ubuntu now I know Swing into the fence The the reason why I was gonna go with that the reason why I say that isn't because ubuntu is bad But because people Because people consider it the default And when you have something that's not as good as it used to be considered the default It's not necessarily the best situation to be in so Maybe it's just my my my bias against Ubuntu sticking out here and I'll readily admit that I don't like I can't get on board with that Whoever said who said something somebody just said something I didn't see I said I could get on board with that. That's actually a pretty good call for the right reasons. Yeah, so it's just Canonical doesn't feel like they have the interest in advancing The desktop like they used to Ever since they abandoned unity really they've It just feels like ubuntu desktop has fallen by the wayside They've made really weird decisions. They've obviously very heavily invested in snaps, which is, you know, fine I don't have I have things against snaps, but they're better than they used to be but it just feels like And because people consider it like the distro that you want to use if you're a brand new linux user If you go experience ubuntu Even though it's based on debian And has the debian software repositories there and the ubuntu repositories and snaps and stuff It doesn't feel like what you experience out of the box with ubuntu is what you're going to get on any other distro The ui is completely different than anything else. You're going to experience the update mechanisms and the update schedule are different than basically anybody else that actually does it It just feel and they have this gigantic cache of stuff that lives on the internet that making Everyone says that the best thing about ubuntu is that if you have a problem Chances are someone else has had that problem in the last 20 years And because it's been so popular you can go online and find the solution to that problem The problem is that there's all that stuff on there and Chances are the thing that you find from stack overflow from 2008 Maybe he's not going to work in 2024.  Maybe the the A periodic spring cleaning of some of the old shit that lives on the internet of people of telling you how to do Stuff on ubuntu should be cleaned out a little bit just because While that can be an acid, I also think that it's a hindrance and that it just Provides false information and you don't have the same experience as you do on other distros And this is going to come as a surprise But I truly do believe That if you were to replace the default ubuntu with something else because something would take it place I think it would be linux mint or something like zoren, but probably linux mint and I know Matt saying something good about linux mint.  Well, I don't want everybody to use open susan because then it would be special anymore I gotta get keep a little bit man. Come on All right, alex why don't you answer this question? so I think the biggest step that could be taken to fix linux is to Some way somehow convince people to have a standardization of quality of documentation Let's be real 90 of our time we spend doing anything on linux We're diving into documentation for some reason or another if people just had a standard of quality to which they maintained their documentation On what they're developing as much as they work so hard on developing what it is that they're developing In their project dude linux would win all over the place So what you're saying is that we need to make the arch wiki the default for documentation. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I hear absolutely. Yeah. Yeah something like that. Yeah, yeah or Documentation That's another good one. Yes. Yeah Yeah, seriously. I mean if you make that the template and go with it Well, that's gonna give the arch guys a big head They go we we get to do the documentation for all of linux. That's gonna be fantastic. Just don't count on their growth Their grub being stable Yeah, or them to actually help you with your documentation Yeah We need to find out who actually owns rtfm.com And if nobody does we're buying it right now Yeah Yeah, so if you go to rtfm.com all you get is a picture of a mountain That's it. Yeah, there's like a somebody obviously owns it. It's not Like an actual website. That's really that's very weird. That's wild It would have been hilarious if it actually like redirected to the arch wiki That's the best thing ever Somebody's got to just tell the arch guys if they get too big of a head we're going to replace them with jinn too. No, no Yeah, nix. It's the nix guys that they're scared of Yeah, everyone's just going to nix at this point. Yeah You know, they're all standing in the corner rubbing their hands together saying is it my time to shine? Is it my turn? Well, the nix documentation is only really useful for nix os Yeah It's not like there's like much of it I would cross out on server. Somebody's type that out the nix os documentation is not useful It's really bad. Uh, uh, all right war thunder. Why don't you answer this question? So, okay, I could be trolling and just say cancel open susan, but I won't do that in actuality Because of things like flatback and that like I like the universal formats, but I would love to see an easier way for developers to port their packages And what not to work more universally Um, because like no system that we have currently is perfect I mean some are better than others like I don't like snaps for instance Um, I've had a lot of issues with in the past But if we could have something that was a little bit better than what we have that'd be great Because flatbacks aren't perfect either they have their own long laundry list of problems and whatnot I'm I'm in matt's boat on that one man. They're they're starting to download way too many dependencies for what you know You know would be great Is if the snap guys and the flat pack guys would just say, you know Screw it come together and create one format that actually was good And a better way of naming them and a better way of naming them Yeah, I agree Yeah, there's like third groups like um for like my wife's cricket machine for the software she needs It it used to work on linux because they had a web version of their software, but now they don't and so Now she's just gonna have to run a vm or something to get that working and it's frustrating to see stuff like that I'd like to see less of that more Just to be able to use use your stuff Did you check to see if there was an app it was over No, it used to it's a really crappy Chromium browser app is what it is for their design software Got you But they just decided to just no longer use a web portal And so now they want to use their crappily compiled version of chromium that runs like crap on everything you own Even if you had a 4090 and To use this app. It's terrible This is librarian. Can you guys hear me? We can hear you.  You're next Yes. All right. Okay so One thing I would love to see six and This is like mainly about New users coming to linux really um I really do think having used a lot having used a lot of de's I really think that a lot of people just see gnom and go. Oh, that's too hard. I don't like that True linux. I'm going back to windows if people knew about like if people If a distro started shipping kde for example as the default Yes, there's customization. Yes, there's there's a lot of it, but To me at least it seems a lot more user friendly And again, you have this like more things in settings like the flatpack thing Like gnomes implementation isn't all there. It just lets you toggle on off the initial permissions of the of the flatpack. It's not a full-on manager like kde's And there's just other things that kde does a lot better like with like the whole Key grabs thing if you run a vm with quick emu or if you just use or if you use spicy To run it or vert manager Your key grabs are going to work for only 95% of time. I've never seen since 5.27 a time where it just didn't work So I think that the usability and for general adoption If I I think if if they store kde a bit more and more distros having that as a default on their flagship distro They go, oh, actually it looks quite easy to use Yeah, the whole genome versus kde argument though is uh oldie, but a goodie We've been we've been trolling that soil for quite a while and it seemed at this point Yeah, genome has one the Maybe a good topic for us one one lug will be to answer the question Why we think everybody every distro on the planet earth has decided that genome is the best option When obviously kde would give them more power to do what they wanted to do but That's a simple question really for a simple answer Dual libraries Or dual licenses rather on the qt libraries. Oh, yeah, it's the the qt is the is a good answer to that Yeah No qt qt is still there's still proprietary Version of license that they Almost insist on everybody using it's very it's a very messy situation um All right, so I I think I saw let's sit here Who's next? Well ddubs unmuted and he turned on his camera too. Oh sweet ddubs you're next then going Thank you trying to do that in order, but everybody's moving around I know, huh? Keep showing your toes It's interesting. The the only thing I want to add to the the last bit of conversation is Whether whatever your distro Environment is it doesn't really matter. You think it's easier. You think it's better the the average person walking in Usually doesn't have that kind of experience or framework It's what we can teach those around us And what works for them You know in effect, I've said it before I think we should adopt our friends and families and co-workers if they're interested And whatever distro you are comfortable with that is reasonable to use and reasonable to set up Is what you go with That's in my personal opinion Is the only way the desktop for linux is going to grow if you got rid of every other desktop environment in me Everything gnome or or hyperland or whatever It's still going to be the same issue. There is a learning curve to a new operating system People are literally growing up on windows but you also see kids today are growing up on Android or iOS And whatever they use them because it's it's a tool and they've learned to use it I have certainly put family members on linux for a number of different reasons You know stop breaking your windows. I'm not going to keep fixing it but there's The my big thing that the last thing I just want to add is the big thing about the flat pack versus snap versus app image Is they are all too bloated They just carry too much stuff with them all of them do I have something to say about that when you get ready for me. Okay. Yeah, just distract us. Go ahead. We're gonna say about that So I've looked at how you like package an app image It is really stupidly hard.  There's just got to be a tool out there that can help you with that Well, as long as as long as app image has a hard dependency on one of the few's versions out there Exactly. It's gonna it's gonna. Well, yeah, I think they finally did get a solution for the fuse two thing But still there's a hard dependency there that eventually that's going to be not updated anymore because fuse two gets updated a lot so It's kind of like hyperland having a hard set dependency on certain versions of wl roots and stuff Which is precisely what they do.  Um D dubs, did you have more to say? I'm sorry. I kind of cut you off there I think he froze I think he froze too. All right I like I like to say it's really not broke, but um I think On your point about ubuntu is I think they should pretty much Stay away from the desktop and stick with the server, which is the only place they're really doing Well at all and providing services. Yeah, john That's it I was just figuring with me Yeah, we can't hear you bar You're you're you're in a well I'm in a well Somebody call lessy timmy's in the well Audio problems on linux, no Oh I think he's trying to say something say go ahead john Can you hear me now? Yes Okay, let's try that Cool. Yeah, linux microphone problems on linux. What's up? Yeah, no, I lost my train of thought. No, we're talking about canonical canonical in ubuntu um I always feel like uh ubuntu and this is I had on my little sheet here. I was going to talk about this um canonical in ubuntu like They use open source Like as a beta test Like all this stuff that comes out that they're paying attention snaps and all the user environments and We're going to help you guys out. That's so people contribute to ubuntu so they can get free labor. Like I don't That happens another way.  It's not if you run trying to run locally Well, we we have to get the servers like if you listen to the linux experiment He'll go on about how he can just do snap install next cloud. Boom. He had the next cloud running. He said that so many times Well, I think one of the Well, one of the one of the I mean it was developed. They were developed for Enterprise first, right? That's what that's what they were developed for First and then they thought it was such a good idea They brought it down into the desktop space and then you guys notice that they didn't really improve them for the desktop For literal years until they decided that they were going to make firefox A snap and then everybody was like, oh my god This thing takes like a minute and a half to launch and you have to fix this and then they finally decided to fix it Kind of right they have a new compression thing that they use and if the if the snap developer who packages the snap Actually takes advantage of that compression. It launches faster and it's actually better Problem is that half of the the package managers or package maintainers don't actually take advantage of it Also loopback devices are the literal worst I'm just I'm gonna put that out. Yes and like the literal the literal worst Amen. Amen. Leave my partitions alone. You bitches. Those are mine I have some to say about snap images Uh, laverne you you wanted to say something about it? Yes, sir The snaps the app images. It's almost like Linux is becoming like the education system. We're being dumbed down In other words, like I remember when I had a problem We could like a guy A programmer would be able to fix, you know patch a code And now they're saying, oh, let's not do that anymore. Let's just make these And send them out But they're they're heavier. They're they're more, you know, uh They're larger in size Because, you know, they put everything into it, you know, the shared objects What we call them in those dynamic libraries It reminds me of the old days back in the 80s When you'd have a program and all that program everything was compiled in and to get it to run in dots. Remember You know Now then later on They used shared objects And see that's what like we're going backwards on this You know, like I've had that argument and I agree with you 100% because I say they did the same thing with arch Arch used to be difficult to install But now anybody can install arch like there's nothing no problem tomorrow because of the columnar's installer And then you got an example tools You got those welcome tools that help you install and any and every damn thing under the sun For your setup on arch John Arch and made it into Ubuntu John remember I said guys, uh Get to boundaries. Remember it's like, oh, that's the longer going that way too. Yeah Yeah, there is what there was one point though that we from the software vendors point of view Linux is a nightmare Because you've got so many different versions kernels drivers libraries and so forth One in my opinion one of the reasons that snap and app image and so forth are Out there is an attempt to kind of level that playing field At work. It's it's close to help people but actually, you know, I mean, what if you have serious problem? Yeah, exactly. I'm just saying it's it's not as simple as oh snaps are terrible or this is terrible Exactly. Well, I don't trying to resolve a problem Yeah, he does froze again. I don't I don't think that anybody is denying that there's a reason why they were created I think that most people's problems with flatbacks is that is just that they Have issues that don't seem to ever be fixed now. John, you had your hand raised. What did you want to say? Yeah? Yeah, I hate just I don't want to talk over anybody and there's enough people in here. I feel like I would do it the Ddubs made a point and then like very made a point that they were kind of together where we're talking about Inviting users in like this is the new people coming over to Linux And doing some of the evangelism where people we want people to come into Linux We want to make it easier for them to use and then libraries talking about Well, you know, we're going backwards and suffered about how we do programs That what I was talking about was canonical and the snaps and stuff that kind of has all the same conversation It's one of the things that I wanted to get you guys's input on, you know, if we had time if we didn't branch off too far is Linux keeps trying to bring people in The desktop Linux. I'm not talking about the service Server Linux or even the enterprise Linux, but we talk about like we want to get new users to come over and join the cult Excuse me, but then When they come over to the cult and they're like, hey, wouldn't this be great?  We just do it all in the terminal anyways They're wondering why can't they do gear? Yeah Right, but I also think I also think by last little point and then I'll stop until somebody asks me a question The people who are going to come to Linux in my view Are here Or we'll come here eventually I don't think we need to evangelize Linux on a desktop or as a hobby or I think the people who are interested and are going to pursue it They will come here on their own We don't have to go out and like try and drag people into the bus Exactly the people that naturally gravitate towards Linux Their computer enthusiasts are guys that like to tinker. They're Maybe girls that like to tinker but you get my point The people who will find their way here and even if it's just a window sucks What else is out there?  We don't necessarily have to go and You know, wave the flag because and I'm not trying to gatekeep But maybe some of those people we actually don't want here I don't know that's why I just want to say that's because I said those who are interested in our circle Okay, well I get you. I didn't take it. Yeah. Yeah, okay It can be a bit of a it can be a bit of a Issue getting in and getting it running and working without frustration because there are so many choice Well, I've talked about I've talked about this on on on videos before Linux isn't for everyone. We know that and one of the reasons why it's not for everyone is because it does require some interest in learning new things and while it sounds horrible to say this but the vast majority of people who use Windows don't care to learn. I mean, not necessarily don't care to learn about new things They don't care about learning these new things because they're not Linux nerds The vast majority of people aren't going to come into a discord server Join a linux user group so they can talk about this nonsense, right? They're out doing things that real people do, you know, so Um I think he's projecting I've seen a lot, you know, I watched a huge you create videos quite a bit and I'm thinking Maybe we need to have videos like on just simply compiling source code by hand in linux, you know, like You know configure make make install is easy, but you know like python setup py etc Well, I haven't seen a lot of those videos. I know that the old guard are your favorite distributions to recommend to beginners It's blackware Also an important question is this streamed to youtube? Yes Yeah, I should turn off my face so you don't get comments turned off on your stream Uh Yeah, to Liberia's uh point. Am I saying that right Liberian? Yes, sir. I'm amazed people are saying my name correctly Okay, cool. All right. Well, good to meet you, sir. Um I've been thinking about for a while that there's there's enough, uh And this and especially in match discord and I see some overlap from some other places, too I've been thinking we were talking about the wiki earlier. I've been thinking about Uh github or gitlab or one of one of those it doesn't matter as long as it's public-facing and everybody can get on it I've started compiling like my own resources Uh specifically for linux like I'm I'm a windows uh guy in the work life And I have one privately for my own nonsense like everything I found or keeping or whatever I haven't get up with all the links and read me's but I've been thinking about like for linux I've found a good one And I think what you're talking about videos are like compiling stuff actual food tutorials in one place Because I used to go to the red hat stuff a long time ago when I was new but Yeah, that's not good and the linux foundation courses are not great To your point on that there used to be there used to be the linux documentation project I don't know if it's still around but it was It's not it's not because the linux foundation spends like I don't know like 32 dollars a year of linux They're mac guys now. Did you know They're what now they're mac guys. They're all mac guys. Um, but yeah, they're all mac guys And they also they spend a ton of money on uh, like their billy dollar or position But they they spend like a thousand dollars a year of linux and they're probably all goes to linux Yeah, so aside from his other sponsors but back in the day, I think that's a really I mean People buy books. I think that's a good idea. That was a thing You go into barns noble or you go into your local bookstore and you'd buy this gigantic thousand page book On linux. It came with cds We don't do who we don't we don't have that anymore I mean you can still I'm sure those things still exist But the vast majority of people aren't going to have that experience like I have a it's uh Good Yeah, the only thing I've seen is the the only thing I've seen and I don't even think the linux foundation puts it out Somebody else puts it out as I found a thumb drive Uh in a package and it had a qr code for a website There was a book and it was a thumb drive. That's the only thing I've seen it was at a Almost bought it Okay, so I think that we're having I think that there's two ways that we could talk about this so There there's the old guard way where We want to have the You know compilation of code and you know a tutorial on how to do c make and and and Compiled gcc and compiled jigs custom kernel all that stuff. Those are that's the nerdy stuff that we all love But there is definitely I think a place for the simplistic gooey dumb down Way of doing things like librarians. I I think that that there's I mean whether we agree with the way snap does things or the way flat pack does things or Nobody agrees with the way app images that does things that those things are just stupid The whether you agree with those things or not The purpose of them is good. Whether or not the execution is good is another question and I think that one of the things that They enable better than just having a regular repository of random packages that is maintained by A distro is that in theory We can have things like flat hub that exists cross distribution So if you want to download obs you go to flat hub and you get that thing And it's the same thing whether you're using open suzer or linux mint or debian or whatever That's the idea behind it now. Like I said the execution is not perfect And I think that we could get further into perfection if we didn't have to do the traditional linux thing of having nine different Options for people to choose from but we're not going to get past that. That's just the nature of open source But I think I think that By having those types things because I mean I don't remember who said it But they said that that all these things are huge like the all the the snaps and the flapx They're all very big packages and there's a reason because they have all the libraries in there The idea there is to of course Have it so that you don't have library conflicts if you download the thing from the arch repositories But have a dependency from the aur and you know version your problems, you know, so the idea I think is is very good I don't see The the best part about linux. I think I would argue other than the community is that We don't have to choose. I mean both of these things are going to exist but The the biggest downside To a lot of this stuff is that we have one group of people Who have been here for a very long time that they Have a certain way of doing things and they're very vocal on And guys remember i'm one of these people like I hate wailand with a passion and I will tell everyone That I just can't stand wailand and it's ruined my day Three times in the last week. We're just going to put that out there. We can't be friends Too bad you went around the beginning when x was really terrible on pc Yeah, you would you would be like I love wailand. I love wailand Hyperland just keeps freezing on me, but that's that's beside the point But the the the thing is like the people like me don't want change and we tell people we don't want change And then we we see the change and we bitch about the change and that infects the Kind of the environment and atmosphere around the change now some of that has to do with the change itself some of it has to do with who's usually doing the change because there's this Gigantic anti red hat thing that goes around the entire community You know every three days that you know for for some good reasons some bad reasons, you know all that stuff so I mean I I think that There's a thing to be said that in some ways the old guard Holds us back, but Also the new guard hold us back and there's no new guard and the linux foundation is doing their things we don't have like a We have three million different champions of linux And none of them agree on shit Like nothing right, but that's but that's that's part of the that's part of that's but that's the way you're phrasing it And I like you matt a lot. I love your videos. I love this community But that's that's part of the problem too is that the old guard has to join with the new guard They don't They don't have to the old guard does their thing the way they do and then the new guard does the way the thing that they do It doesn't have to be All the same thing. Well, no that does kind of what I said there at the beginning was like It doesn't have to be either or but it sometimes feels Like it has to be either or because we we spend all of our conversation and half of our effort in the conversation About whether or not we should or not instead of just doing The thing and I mean right that I Then I know that I 100% agree with you on that that you're right about us. We we spend a lot of time but I think that that's I think that's part of the thing is that we think that the The old guard and the new guard should be on the same page And they don't need to be well, I mean we talk about linux is if it's this big thing It's this huge big body of three million people We did that because we wanted to say like linux has got three percent of the market flexors Which is not even real four percent Is that what you're doing? Is that what you're saying now? Is that what you're saying? Is this four percent? Yeah, four percent, but we we don't have to you know, I think select where is Ridiculous, but that doesn't everything to do with me because I don't use select where so That's the thing you don't have to use it if you don't like it I mean, that's the greatest part about linux is the ultimate choice that you have Yeah, right, but it doesn't say it.  I hope they're having fun. I hope they get to work done. They don't have to be part of the Fedora people. Jake you had to I don't know. I'm sorry. I'll stop. I'll get off my soapbox. You're fine, John I think zombie had something they wanted to say they were talking in the lu g chat asking basically how they could raise their hand without a camera Oh Yeah, there is a way on On discord to actually have a hand raising feature, but I don't have it enabled because I'm a dumbass um, so Zombie wherever you're at if you need to have someone say go ahead and say it It looks like they got their stuff muted at the moment.  All right. So long don't we go ahead and who who wanted to take us to the next To answer this question in a different way anybody who wanted to go that didn't have a chance to say it Going once Can I ask a question? Oh, yep. Go ahead uh What does it mean to make uh, Linux bother or to fix it because uh, I don't think we're on the same page here where A new user might see something as a problem where the old user might see this as an advantage For example for new users actually having more options is something bad because they get scared out of it whereas old user might think that's awesome and Like that's what I mean like what does it mean to be better or fixing Linux where Where actually we're not on the same page here. Are you complaining about the wording of the question? Are you a lawyer? You can say that I just think like It's not something it's not something clear like To to mean to fix Linux. Well, you remember that i'm a youtuber. So I have to put things in the most clickbaity way possible Um, but never never I know you're right. You're right. He did it in a clickbait way, but it's to generate Conversations to like you you had an idea. You didn't like the question You didn't like how it's raised. So you made your point. That was that's what he was doing Yeah, I I understood and made a joke It's fine. Uh, I think when I meant to fix what What it meant was that what are things that you see as a problem like everybody doesn't see the same problems, obviously If you see a problem, what would you? Do to fix that problem or what would the solution you Proposed to fix my because everybody's you're right. Everybody's going to see a different problem based on their perspective of where they're at in their journey um But I think that we can all agree that no matter what you think the problems are there are problems There that we can have interesting conversations on The one thing The one thing that i'm surprised that nobody brought up So I made a video About two weeks ago saying that normal normal people don't use linux for a good reason and In the comment section of that video the number one reason why people say they can't use linux is still gaming And i'm surprised that nobody here has brought up Anti cheat or any of that stuff that maybe maybe it's just because none of us are gamers But it's uh interesting that nobody has has brought it up at all because that that by far I mean it's like 90 of the comments in that video. We're like, well, I can't use linux because I'm a gamer and half the games that I want to play Don't work on linux now. I I mean look it I think that's This is something I kind of want to say and I don't think this is just in gaming but then Just software support in general I have Used linux for a long time, but not on I have not made linux for very long Like this year I switched to linux on my main pc and I've completely used it because I was very scared of what I Am and am not able to run and do Luckily a lot of the games I play aren't anti-cheat and I always use free software because I am just cheap But I think yeah Yeah, I've used free software on windows too. I always use the game instead of photoshop um Yeah, but I feel like software support with More software support with getting on board on linux It's software on linux is hard. It's not going to be hard. You're coming into the future But it's it's hard right now and when people say they're gamers like I have games on my machine, but I'm not a gamer Yeah, you know, I mean like my my son. Yeah, my son isn't Sorry My son's a gamer and like when I showed him like nabara and some other stuff and he looked at it And then he went and did his homework and he's like, no dad. That's not gonna fly And he went back and you know kind of it kind of laughed at me like oh man And he went back to do what he was doing because linux isn't gonna support Gamers It's going to be like a very difficult thing to uh solve because to get more software support companies wants more users But there are little users because there is no software support. What I that's what I think at least Yeah, I think basically the vast majority of like most popular games are just all like there's There's just so few popular games and like most of those have like Very invasive anti-cheat. You see so like there's valent which um famously Restricted anti-cheat. There's um cs2 actually works very well on linux, but like well The anti-cheat there isn't uh the best but like The the majority of like games that like people actually play are online online only have restrictive anti-cheat and like like like I'm I'm I Play like I have played like a ton of um single player only games like that's basically what I do and um like It just works for me, but that's just because I'm an edge case I mean Like like he's playing ghostrunner like three people We're all I don't think there's anyone in this chat. That's not an edge case in some in some case and I think that that's kind of I mean Somebody was talking about earlier that If you want if you use linux, you probably are an edge case in in some case because John I think you're talking about you don't need evangelism because it draws in people who aren't going to be You know interested in in linux the people who are interested in linux will come here on their own We don't need to put up those words for yeah No, we don't need we don't need to recruit them because the people who want to be here air already here Or we'll find us eventually They just you know, whatever we just have to be nice to them when they show up And that's fine and the other people who were trying to like a man come on could join the party They'll come over here They won't like it because it's not what they expected and then they'll go to all the friends of linux sucks So it's not to me. It's not productive Also, I started using linux many years ago. Hold on a second librarian Alex. What were you saying? I had a discussion with somebody the other day about just that also historically, I mean, I've been using linux for a very long time and Historically when people were migrating over to linux back then it was a steep learning curve because there was a lot more It wasn't as easy to use things were as easy to install packages weren't really there I mean the software library either through flat hub or Whatever just wasn't there.  Okay, none of that was there, right? but also The people that are coming in and ddubs kind of spoke to that earlier Is that they're no longer the standard newb coming in these people have grown up with a cell phone in their hand A game console in their hand two or three different laptops in their hand They've already been taught stuff in school as to how to code and stuff like that So for them to kind of come into linux and experience a little bit of technical difficulty Is not like me on my boomer level coming in You know a lot of the newer people coming in are now the older boomers that are trying to find linux. Yes They're in that scenario, but 90% of the new people coming in they're not in that scenario They're picking up linux and running with it easily the other day I was in zany's discord and we were helping some kid The first thing he was installing in his entire life in linux on day like two or three Was nixos And the dude was configuring his stuff on his own Was would have been more impressive if it was lfs or gen 2. Sorry Well, yeah, yeah, but i'm still saying i'm still saying the stuff that we would look at when we came in and be like holy Shit, what the hell? You know this guy was like eating it up like he was candy No, i'm more impressed. He did nixos because lfs and other ones. There's some nice how-to guides He had no documentation for nixos I know the problem is there's tons of documentation. It's outdated or wrong or not. It's all over the place. Okay. Yeah Um, labyrinth you had something to say Uh, hold on a second. I let the cat out. Uh, yeah, uh it's really When I started using linux the main reason was everything was free And a lot of times when you're I wanted a program on it You know these programs that you buy for windows to do programming, you know cost a whole lot thousands You know you spend a lot of money and especially games. Well like jay pointed out to me the other day that uh The problem, you know with free bsd is is that proton doesn't work. So I'm doing some free bsd team development. Maybe we can work look at that the next Six months or so. Maybe we you know Sweet fix the problem. That's what I love about our community, man I really do is that we we come together when we see a problem like that. We just fix it Well, we we're just here to help Try to use it anyways. Yo All right, um Raise the floor Okay, so who anybody else wanted to answer the main question before we branch off into something By the way, if you guys are here having a chat in the in the little chat room that's right off the side And expect me to see any of that. Don't expect me to see it. I can't have open I can't open i'm streaming the way they wanted to say Come on, man. Get good. I'm streaming the window and it's there's not enough room for it and all your pretty faces Skillish I wanted to talk No, you hear me. It's the audio quality. Okay. Yeah, go ahead. So um I wanted to address my main issue with with linux at the time so At the time rcm and hip is completely broken on arch So I can't render anything in blender with gpu acceleration and cycles And I basically have to go back to my cpu accelerated rendering and this is basically slower cell And this mostly stops my workflow at this time Since there's no alternatives to nvidia's cuda or something I can use to do that. So uh, what I am actually looking for is Like a drop-in replacement Or cuda since I was an nvidia user and now switched over to a medial but actually Yeah, I hope I hope you can understand it Momentarily, I don't have the way to like render things Hardware accelerated in blender It's my main issue momentarily with it. So Yeah The nvidia stuff is always going to be a pain in the linux community's rear end. I don't watch you use it Well, I think that they've warmed to linux probably forcefully For forcibly over the last few years because you know, they've they've open sourced some things a number of years ago I Yeah, but but it's it's never I don't think I'll ever catch up with amd stuff and and unfortunately amd has never been the best thing ever either so The whole graphic stack when it comes to driver support and the the fancy things like dlss and And ray tracing and all that stuff Is always going to be unfortunately behind on linux. So I think that's a lot of a lot of the stuff It does eventually eventually make it what's way in because of things like proton Uh, but outside of the gaming sphere, it's it's even worse because at least when it comes to the gaming stuff We have a champion right we have valve there They want that stuff to work at least for games, but It feels like outside of that sometimes it doesn't always come through and translate and eventually come like it does in the gaming sphere We're we're gonna get some benefit off of the uh The ai thing because they're trying to push a lot of that workload over to the gpu So the idea that they want to do like with amd's Eight or whatever that's coming out next year. They're trying to they want to drop Uh ai like a local version the llama or whatever that they want to use it in the cpu But they have to dump some of that workload over to the gpu And then on the server side, which is all going to be linux. They're going to try to do the same thing So now they're like, hey, we a bit we we ignored linux for the last 30 years Like holy shit, we need them to be our friends and we need help Or else we're gonna lose a bunch of money. So you'll see over the next 24 months You'll see all that's why they open sourced it. That's why they did all of that It's because they're please come work for us for free Build us a bunch because that they need the the cpu power like that's the whole thing That's holding the back is the gpu like they don't have they have all this great stuff But it's hotter than the sun and nobody has enough cores. I think I think cores is right For us, it's a good thing for us. It's really good But and it'll get much like we used to have to wait 10 years for something to change for linux No, it's gonna go real fast over the next 24 months. I hope that's that's good. Yeah, that's true It'd be that'd be odd because it and v has been Dogshit on linux for a long time Yeah, I could I could be wrong but everything Yeah, it could be wrong with everything that i'm reading that i'm trying to to pay attention to So i always look i'm i like to make money so i'm always looking for like work in a certain level. Thank you and somewhere and get a piece That's what what kind of what people are talking about. That's the same thing that they were talking about was like risk me They want to be able to do more with less And they're also you also see that they're pulling a lot of stuff back from Back from the user that's part of the motivation for like electron and stuff like that where you get rendered from a web page As i can turn it off they're trying to pull some of that back On the server rather than a local application because they want to have more control over it and they want to be able to Worry about the compute time if you have it as a local application Then there's less control So they want to do more server rendering pull some of that stuff back Because everybody's scared that ai is gonna like You know some school teachers going to be in their top of your class and she's going to ask the ai question And then the ai is going to be like well 1930s germans And like It literally just happened Yeah, I know there's method. What was it? gingers with Elitone and stuff. Well, no the um Google had to had to pull parts of gemini like two days ago because it developed nazi sympathies Like literally like two days. It was on the verge Yeah Hey matt matt don't don't demonetize your own video. You got to say 1930s germans, don't Don't Germans Yeah, so now I got to say 1930s germans and I also got to whip out my my my stock my my stock Portfolio and start investing more into nvidia. Got it. Yes. You should know you should be risk Yeah risk risk v is a good thing and video is a good thing. I'm an amd I don't like to be video for a while. I've been investing there for a while, but I'm from what you're telling me I gotta invest some more Yeah, I I mean, I don't know. I don't work for any of them. I was an evangel advisor. I just I don't care. I just like to make one big issue with nvidia Go buy some nfts.  Yeah. Do you have an nft? Okay, no, I don't all right. Who who was talking while we were making jokes.  Okay. Uh next next time guys for this I will delete this channel and come up with a new one where you can raise your hand that way I can actually see who wants to talk because going by the little green thing that goes around people's face when they start talking Is not working the destructive tron is green all the time. So so very uh, so Maybe you can actually use emojis for this You'd have to show up somewhere Because yeah, because then matt would have to look to the side of the screen and that's they have they have like zoom has a like a A hands up thing this court This court has that too, but you have to have a channel have a channel that actually is for that.  I was like, uh You guys guys gotta remember when I first came up with this idea It was absolutely 100 positive that no one was gonna show up like I was I was gonna sit alone Like a douchebag in the in the room all by myself. So I was like, you know, I don't have to put any effort into this I don't have to create it for the proper way. I don't even think I put the dates right in the damn event log Half of them say like thursday when it's supposed to be friday.  I had I actually tried this once before and that happened I was literally the only person here because it was very early in my youtube career was like back when I had like 2000 subscribers So there's very few people to actually come to the the log So it's much it's much different now. Um anyways Um Matt had a program man be a programmer See I he's he No, he's gonna have doubt to tell you that he has no interest in but matt's always sneaky because He knows that he knows a lot more than he'll let on and I think he's actually got some pretty serious He's a programmer. He doesn't know it I spent the last 24 hours messing around with python. So But there you go. Yeah, weren't you taking classes for python? I finally finished him finally Yeah, I um, I've written some python code. Believe it or not.  What's the first run man? It's just it's like a true programmer there. It's just not If you don't do any better if statements, you know, you're not a real real real real man Yeah, I used I used to get worried about like when I was first starting because I you know, I just started coding like Six years ago Um, but I was not like I came from a whole different industry I like I 20 years ago. I was like a basement nerd just playing around with stuff But I had a whole job I didn't try to be a developer until like six years ago and it took me forever to figure out that Uh, google's your friend Read the book Generally don't talk to other people about it unless they're in your workplace like watching youtubers tell you how to code Not good people. I mean, maybe they're nice people, but the youtube tutorials are garbage, but I kept like, uh I'm 20 years older than everybody at this job. Uh, I don't know how to do anything Everybody feels that way Nobody has to go work for, uh, you know Netflix tomorrow and even the people at netflix don't know what they're doing. Just go do stuff Let's go build stuff. Now if you want to know something just go to chat gpt Okay, see Alex is part of the Alex is part of the problem I have chat gpt I got microsoft co-pilot I'm digging the jetbrains ai Like I use those tools And they are real cool sometimes like that's real fast.  Well, that's that's equitable That's equitable to just go on to the any web page online and just blindly copying terminal commands into your terminal Without no, it's it's yeah, it's the same thing It is fun sometimes, you know, that's exactly that's exactly what it is a nuclear missile from nasa. How the hell did I do that? We're gonna count for everything it'll be fine Right. No, no, it's it's not bad enough. You're piping into bash. You're piping into pseudo bash Windows windows is getting pseudo Uh too many.  You were saying something I said, oh, yeah curl fsl pipe it into back. That's a really good idea Just piping that's a really good idea. Just Don't even look at the code first. It's like curl it into bash. Yeah, you The number of times you go go go to get hub or get lab and see exactly that I mean Literally these are season developers who are saying, you know Maybe there's something we can talk about the the I think the idea is that they want their thing to be as easy to install as possible They don't want to have to write documentation on how to use mason or make or whatever They just want to say hey, I wrote this script.  We'll do it for you You can trust us wink wink. Um, we're only going to install miners on your your machine to pay us back But but the the thing is I think the intentions behind that kind of thing are usually good Because most people are stupid. I'm every time I come on this lug.  You can't just blindly trust everything. You gotta that's a good point guys Just don't trust everything don't trust nothing. Many years ago had a customer call me Because she had a tower and her uh joint tray wasn't popping out Her drink tray? Are you for real? I've heard that one before Okay, yeah The funny thing is that I'm like, yeah, I heard that one before but I don't know if he's uh, if he's pulling our leg Or if he's serious He could be a yeah, he could this could be a real honest to god story guys. I don't know my computer I believe it because in the military had someone bring in a radio And the tag wrote the problem was unit does not work in the o f f position Oh my god people aren't just not jokes from from the 90s Yeah, yeah, well that's a lot of us close to what it was Yeah, a lot of us were a lot of us were out doing cool shit in the 90s I was I was around in the 90s. I don't know if I was doing anything cool. Um Uh, I think that Just to kind of bring us back around to the to the Topic of conversation here that linux itself Has a too many it has a pleasing everybody problem where In a lot of ways and especially specifically the bigger distros Try to generalize who they're for as much as possible. So they do this by creating snaps They do this by creating flat packs. They do this by being as Yeah Inoffensive as possible in their choices most of the time not always sometimes they make choices that are, you know stupid amazon on the desktop canonical, but um, they They have And it's a it's a reasonable thing to to want to do is to try to please as many people as possible, but When you try to do that you never succeed at anything so And When you you were also trying to please as many people as possible You're also going to have people who disagree with the way you're trying to do it. So therefore you end up with Uh, you know someone going in forking ubuntu and creating linux mint, you know, they go, you know They create zorn and they had you know and you can drill this down into your favorite program You know lsd or whatever, you know, basically anything you talk about has been It's either the creation of something or it has forks of something from a developer who didn't agree with the original developer's idea And they wanted to go a different direction So, you know because that you know, they wanted to please a certain group of people You know, they ended up with a fork and we have all of these different things Going on all at the same place and for us nerds Fantastic news, right? We have a whole bunch of stuff to talk about We have a whole bunch of different things to try especially if you have add like i do You can just hop to different wind managers six times the different, you know an hour and you're never going to run out You know, that's fantastic news. But for average joe schmoe who has like john said has the interest in coming to linux and doing the thing They still may have problems because there's so many different things And like i said earlier when when i talked about my thing, there's so much stuff online We talked about python, right? python's exactly the same as ubuntu in this regard you go try to find something That you want to do in python that you don't know how to do so you end up on a random stack overflow or stack exchange thing from 10 years ago Chances are Python has done something that's different than it was 10 years ago and that thing's not necessarily going to work Exactly the same way, you know, and you have this situation where you know people come in and they you know they have you know ways of looking at things and Wanting to learn if you have the interest in learning stuff. It's just a question of Where you learn this stuff because the content stuff's out there Well, that's what I was that's what I was pointing out earlier when Liberian was talking about like videos and stuff. That's why I was talking about having that The github or git lab or something like that because the arch wiki has the right idea But it's for arch and it's also outdated and it's hard to get that Adjusted but that's why I was you know pushing the idea to to have that github because when I go and look for First stuff when I'm trying to pull in something like right now. I'm working on a website for steve and he he's like not helping but I don't do web development and I'm like I know how to do it. I built websites. That's fine. I can JavaScript and code work I don't like doing it and I haven't done it for years So I had to like go look at libraries and refresh myself with node and I have touch boost drive and three or whatever So I went out to github Not necessarily the documentation, but I went out to github to look at other stuff and pulled There so I think for guys that already are interested if they had That kind of resource for like, oh no if you're looking for A bunch of stuff or deviant stuff or whatever. Here's the resources for then and because it's also updatable You're like, oh, you want to change this? This is outdated or whatever It would take somebody two minutes to do a pull request and change it rather than have to go Change the open suce site So he's wanting to compile The mother of all documentation So I think it shouldn't be no, no, no, I don't think it should be like I'm sitting on top of the linux documentation repo. That's asinine I don't think that I mean somebody out there could do it But I don't have that kind of time or energy or resources But I'm saying like no if you if you just started putting your guides there You because you can link to other repos to other repos to other repos But if you had uh When github they have this thing called awesome lists and it's just this guy made a markdown file Everything that he found that had to do with rust. It's like 37 pages and it's got a table of contents And then he updated when something breaks. It literally takes five minutes Maybe I'm not maybe I'm not explaining it. Well, okay, so here's here's something We have the tool That maybe not for the software level, but for the distro level we had We have the tool. It's called distro watch. Okay in theory.  So when I you know, when I I thought you were going somewhere very different Matt. I was gonna jump off the call. Okay It's just it's just it's not good, right? It's not updated. It's very It's kind of proprietary in a way that it's all controlled by one dude And the codes and information is not public. It's all controlled by him So when Yeah, and if a few a couple years back there was a big controversy over something on on distro watch So I bought a domain called distro db.com. I was like, I gotta remember this before I knew This is before I knew anything really and I was like, oh, this is gonna be a good idea I'm gonna create the next version of distro watch, but it's going to be community-based and it's going to be a wiki similar to Wikipedia and Well, I don't have the interest in ever doing it myself anymore Gentlemen, I think that a wiki style thing that the community can Think it's not arch based. So it's not gonna have like arch in the but a more general thing where people can Contribute and like a gigantic documentation Database for for everything would be good Of course, it would be a moderation fucking nightmare because Right, so I I have something very important to say but then somebody else talked I don't want to cut them. I did somebody else said I'm trying to I'm trying to interject I'm just trying to get to get a space to to uh, I'm just trying to get a space to To inject my thoughts if that is that's welcome. Go ahead. Okay. Yeah, I promise I won't talk over everybody and adhere to judge duty rules You're fine. Go ahead. What are judge duty rules? I don't know what that is Um, there's a moderator in in the in the there's a moderator in the middle who tells people that um, if they're talking at a turn or uh, or speaking over the other person And you have to be silent until the other person said Said says otherwise I think I'm sorry. I'm sorry if I garbled that I have a mild speech pathology You'll have to you'll have to excuse me. So I wanted to I wanted to to share my thoughts because I've been listening to this podcast for a while I think that you might benefit from somebody who's been in the Linux sphere for about 24 years now Um, I started my lip my wonderful linux journey all the way back in 1999 just as I was graduating high school Um, and I started on mandrake and what got me into linux was the was That I was upset. I grew up obsessed with novell network. Anybody remember that? Yep Okay, no before that network. Yeah, I have pdp on that Okay, I what got me hooked on linux was the ability to create and and emulate a novell network server Of which da ms. DOS clients not windows I want to bring that that windows came later when I got into samba development and I was obsessed with samba and open ldap And i'm dal kerberos and those sorts of server services for decades I did everything I could to learn everything I could about them and was just so was just fanatical about them However The thing the fact that I started on mandrake get and the fact that mandrake collapsed as an organization in 2015 um Brit, um, I bring with me some experiences that I think Give me a unique perspective on this because I ported many packages from open susan fedora and other distros for um Two mandreva Is it was called later on before it before it imploded and became a split into magia and and the russian variant of it rosa which um Before it imploded I spent so much time Ages porting packages and porting getting updates Either to either as a magia user or as a mandreva user back when it was called that I I made my way up to to um junior maintainer um a sort of junior maintainer stat Um state over the years there are actually still packages floating around out there That might still have my name in the changelog somewhere As zombie rayushu, which is the which is the the pseudonym I go by anyway The point was was that beyond I now I use open susan now But the thing one but one of the major frustrations was is is that there was such fragmentation at the time That I honestly asked myself why I was putting myself through this agony to continually have to port have to um Port over applications from other distros because mandreva was typically actually usually behind The pack when it came to the because they were a small distribution so I was One of the people who was tasked with the endless task And I do mean endless as in a treadmill of porting package after package after package after package after package So much so that it became thousands over a period of 10 years uh To get them all um to get everything working in to get everything working in mandreva and later magia And I started I started to ask myself. Why am I doing this? Why am I you know Wouldn't it be easier just to use open susa or to use fedora? Why can't I just install a fedora rpm or add their repos as a resource? um As a resource for me to use um Like I do the other the other you know Some distributions like fedora has what the hell is it called the Stuff where you get things that are technically against the dmca Like dvd css rpm fusion Yes, yes, I'm sorry rpm fusion things like that Why can't I add more repos? Kind of like how yubuntu does with additional ppa's Um, why am I why do I have to sit there and double check spec files and make change logs about the about the changes I make for a common, you know, and sometimes it's simply bumping a version number okay, but um The thing is is that and for 10 years I did this And then I got involved with large organizations and I work for for a large public-facing I work I've worked for two public-facing large organizations. One is a One was a private sector service center. Okay, that was absolutely massive They used linux extensively in the data recovery operation that they had Um They didn't use it outside of that Um, the as far as their customer their customer service base goes Um, they didn't support linux for their customers They supported linux for their for their internal data recovery division department Uh division operation nothing outside of that even um Then I moved I I lost that job Due to personal reasons. I had a family member who contracted who contracted cancer And then I moved to another large semi public-facing organization that um that um had some contracts with government entities Like this one does that's where I work currently as before I work in a in in a public In a public-facing customer service capacity to some extent There are aspects of my position that are not public-facing, but I do. Okay One problem that I've noticed noticed is is one In some situations there there are tools that make my job a lot easier on linux at the same time Some of the tools that are on linux There there are windows only windows and mac because we do support mac for some some facets of our business some um There are some applications that run on windows or mac That don't run on linux because they're proprietary and if those applications aren't running on windows or linux You don't get paid so That's one facet of it to some people in some situations Running windows and running mac means that means means the difference between Bringing bringing you're bringing your salary home every day And not and that's something something that has to be addressed um linux has to become a force to where I as a linux as a linux user can Do not have to lease equipment from my company That belong that meaning I have to bring windows machines that are managed by my organization Into my home and connect them up to my network and in my case It's I have a vlan But the thing is I have many employees who don't know networking that well And to have a a piece of windows equipment that doesn't belong to them That is managed by their organization Is a privacy risk for their personal lives because much of what much of what my organization does relies on remote workers Who never leave their homes and work out work across the internet to do their jobs Now in the past my my organization has allowed user windows Windows users To not lease company equipment And bring company equipment home if the if your um if your own personal computers meet the specifications for it Okay Now you're going to ask the next question would be what um So the question The question then becomes what facet of your job is preventing you From doing your job with your um with your linux pc Sometimes it can be the damnedest thing you could possibly imagine in my case every almost every My organization has a voice over ip aspect to it. It's not it's um a Facet of what we do that we have to be able to pick up a headset and call people as if they're calling a phone number But none of it actually uses phone lines. It's all over the Over the internet over an encrypted vpn The vpn program Program works under linux. Okay. There's even an open source implementation of it The the our database management applications that access the proprietary databases of our Of our company work under linux. I have I have I have set up linux clients with access to it the um Many of the internal web pages that that our company uses behind of vlan or vpn also worked under linux you can bring You can bring the the um You can bring the uh You can bring the the internal applications for managing various facets of of my Of my company's operation Up in firefox or chrome and as a matter of fact we explicitly Support firefox and chrome only we don't support edge and we don't support safari. Okay Those work under linux. What does it the dialer? The dialer Is a proprietary application produced by sysco systems Who else? And it only Works Under windows and mac. I can't get it to run under wine. I've tried As a result of that I um As a result of that the difference between me getting paid and um Um and me not getting paid to pay for my mortgage Is to um is I have to lease this this windows pc that doesn't belong to me and have it In my home managed by my organization Who can turn on my webcam? And violate the privacy of the inside of my house To be able to have my job and pay my bills I want to bring up how important this is um Now fascinatingly enough It's not that there aren't um There aren't windows dialers that or sorry linux dialers that would do would perform a similar task It's just that in this situation That's the only dialer I can get to work. Well, I think that a lot of different Uh enterprises and businesses have these tools right that that are That that are either unique to them or just think that they've been using for Ever that are preventing them from doing the things that they want to do right john go ahead right Yeah, well we enterprise decisions are not I mean you guys don't work close in the industry probably all of you I know uh, I see a couple of these names like I know you work in the enterprise industry. They don't Those decisions aren't made by the person who's uh most qualified to make that decision those usually are made by somebody who's uh Like the you know close to talking to the c-suite and it's about money And it's not it's not like hey, this is a good technology for us to use because it's good for the employees Or it's good software that it's kind of an aphrodisiac that the engineers got it like Or the it guys kind of like wow, this is what I got to work with like what they pay for is a cost benefit and Is that changing? Yes, um a lot of it is is internal authoritarianism within the organization for instance Yeah, but um, it's an organization.  So yes, it's authoritarian by nature. Well, you put money on it and then yeah, so I I didn't want to dig it I'm sorry, you get I got a big soapbox for that one Maybe maybe we can get into the corporate side of it in in another vlog or something but I I think that we we should bring it back to Uh desktop linux and you do zombie you do have a point that can be made Uh to correlate to desktop linux that people Oftentimes have a workflow that suits them the best And if linux doesn't transform to that workflow They don't then they can't use well. What I was not saying is that the window that Does not transform to the workflow my workflow under Far more efficient than it is if I did not we're not settled by the problems with the windows machine That I leak that I leaks from my organization Believe it or not The tools are better, but the there's but there's always that one thing There's always the one thing That prevents me from using it That for that purpose now I have other linux machines in my Um in in my home that are my personal machines. They run open suza. Um, they they run opens They run it's just bad. Do you just like bring your friends to the disc board? The users can join the luck from now on. I'm just gonna let y'all know open susan users only You guys want to run my custom open suza. Colonel Yeah, I can sympathize with the I could yeah, I can sympathize with the workflow But what I was saying I can sympathize with the workflow because the the I made comments this week in the discord about I'm on a windows machine right now for a client for You know like a day job work money stuff and I don't particularly like it like it's kind of I don't particularly like it my workflow on Um, I run fedora kde most of the time or I sometimes use pop But I like I sit in terminal a lot and I do stuff myself And I just I like the linux workflow. It's much easier for me And I'm more productive that way Um, so I can sympathize with it But I mean we all got to do what we got to do so I feel free my friend You just it is what it is So It lines it out the way it is that's the way it is Yeah, that's the way it is. You can't do anything about it. I I will go back to What we were talking about earlier is that the people Uh, who are going to come here are here or on their way. They'll find us Just for you know, for whatever reason, but that's not what it's Uh-huh. Yeah, it yeah everybody. I think that's majority that's not Linux though I know Matt's trying to bring it back to get us back on on top of what we could do To fix it. So I I do want to I I'm interested in your guys It's I miss part of the start and I am interested for sure in what you guys have to say Which are what your other thoughts are I I said the better the documentation So that that way if you're new and you're trying to figure out what your problem is You can concisely look it up and figure it out Instead of being scattered all over the different places. I'm gonna go to What do you guys what do you guys think about my github as a wiki idea? Where where we could go in and and update because that's the thing too is like updating a website takes a while I mean if like go through I feel what you're saying and it's a it's an interest. It's a very interesting idea really But the problem is is I think you'll succumb to the same problem that is with with wikipedia Is that people can certainly change anything and everything on their ad nauseam? And a lot of times they could believe they're posting correct stuff when they're actually incorrect Well, but see that's where that's why I think it's because matt was talking about moderation Is that where that's where github? survives just because github Is managing like okay, so I have a page here. It's just a markdown file on its list of 10 things It's just one through 10 And then it's my repo so nobody gets to push to main without me Or whoever else I add in an organization you might fall into a couple organizations You don't have that added layer of security for that. Yeah, right? So some people have you know can push to main some people can merge some people can only read the public fork Can create issues Can do whatever the comments be an asshole you can block people whatever and then hey, I want to instead of 10 things I want to have 11 So I created issue They add this 11 thing and I said sure man go ahead and add your thing They fork create an issue do a Pull request and then it comes in and whoever it's not going to be just me I'm perfectly fine starting it But there's too much work for one guy to do it have to be a team and then the pull request comes in And and you look at it and you say hey this guy's crazy and you squash the merch So the moderation is much easier than like on wikipedia and you also Because unlike wikipedia the conversations about why we didn't pull this thing in is public So I'm going to comment and say This is not appropriate for this So we squashed it. So now you know why and then github has also got stuff like Discussion pages. It's got its own wiki that you could do like I just I don't know. Maybe I'm getting The problem with wikipedia isn't that the moderation tools are bad. It's just that it outgrew the ability to moderate Right and you're going to have an easier time with linux knowledge because it's a smaller amount of knowledge than all of the knowledge You know, which is what wikipedia is trying to do is bring all the knowledge where you would just be doing just You know linux knowledge, but still I think you would Encounter the problem and it's one of the reasons why I didn't do the distro db thing is that The scale of it eventually would cause it to top to topple over because it would become unmanageable Not necessarily to buy that domain from you You Let me know you can you can literally have I'll happily stop paying for because I'm never going to do it Um, I actually have to give me give me the yeah, give me the domain I think I'm gonna do this because the other thing you're talking about because some some people can Some people are fine going to github and doing what all I said or whatever But they're also they don't want to read through that somebody look at it Be like man, this is not for me, but you can also Publish all that stuff straight from the github So you wouldn't necessarily have to give somebody the github address to go find information You'd click and go to this website, but it's actually just a front end for For github. Well, it would be a normal website experience It would almost no certainly have to be a website experience because github is very confusing for people who don't know Anything about github. Um, yeah github would know I'd I agree with the the the idea in concept as far as content management goes But believe it or not it probably should be categorized into sections as far as documentation goes because Yeah, there's no yeah, there's no way that it could just be One gigantic list No, nobody. Oh my god. Some of these things are can turn it can can become can have a sort of Bugzilla like arcane this to them if I have an example. I'd like to share as to as to as to what I mean Um currently, you know in open susa right now. I'm dealing with a I've filed multiple bugs about this one against wine one against stl and one against open susa themselves Open susa has a secondary what's called a pac-man repository and a um and a The the the repository is called pac-man and it has sub sub repositories called emulators and games Okay, those are two different repositories. One is called emulators. The other is called games One of the effects of having the games when enabled is is that is is that it upgrades the version of stl two not 1.2 but two um on open susa up from 2.08 To 2.33.0 and it keeps it with the with the current upstream release of stl Um in the games repository But this has an unusual secondary side effect um I play games in wine under linux Occasionally some of them are retro looking some of them are fan games Stuff like that, but they but they're built only for windows. Okay, they were they they generally work Fine under linux except except that The stl 2.33 upgrade Makes some of my button inputs from my gamepad controller not register For a few of them and it only starts working correctly again When uh when stl is downloaded is downgraded back to 2.0.8 I file It's not a loaded It's not a dry. It's not a it's not a it's not a driver That is You can't install both versions of the package at the same time what you can do is you Is you if you um if you extract the could be contents of the of lib stl 2.0 um And just extract the the rpm to a folder um and then um And then Only one library the the lib stl.s o dot dot o sim link and it's associated actual Um shared object binary is what actually matters So if you so if you by hand copy that to ford slash lib ford slash So user local lib64 Okay, and then and then configure ld dot so dot conf To have an extra thing to look there You can have them both installed at the same time Simply by ask let me ask you a question. I mean this is complete I'm not sure I understand how you what you're talking about correlates with what john was saying, but Just because i'm an open suzer guy i'm going to get delve into this rabbit hole you you you've attracted my attention Is there a reason why you need both packages and you can't you don't just pin the old package so you don't Yes, the the old package There are again. There are other things that are installed other than wine And wine is not the only application that is affected by this that require For open suzer leap 15.3 to have the to um to have the the i missed the leap Yeah, I thought we were talking about tumbleweed. Um, we're not talking about tumbleweed. Okay. That makes sense. Um, what okay, so Um, somebody was saying that the in the chat that the problem with github isn't uh, github. It's microsoft So, uh, john if you're gonna do this you might want to consider get lab just to not piss off the microsoft haters Well, yeah, I could can I talk about that? Yeah, go ahead. We have time. Yeah. Yeah. I'm here for another 15 minutes Okay, well, so this yeah, this is gonna get a lot of a lot of hate from people Which when I thought we were saying tricks linux, so it was going to be very divisive and so far See everybody on the same page. Let me start up a little The linux foundation is paid for by google microsoft for facebook Those are the people controlling linux right now Linus told worlds is nearing retirement So whatever people think linux is going to do Uh, it ain't going to be me and ain't going to be guys like me linux the next 10 years is going to be decided by not us So that's not just like hey, we can go distro somewhere else like know the kernel Is and everywhere i'll pass that so sometimes it's not going to be us The the next thing is that, uh For github the reason I chose github rather than get lab is because github is also Much bigger and I know for some people that's like hey, I don't want to do that But from my perspective and from where i'm going is that I like linux and I like the technology and I Completely understand some of the value proposition and like hey, we probably shouldn't give microsoft more power. I'm with you but also, uh, I'm interested in this is the road that Is being traveled and this is where this is going to be most productive And git lab has done some shady shit too. So there's really no good players in town It's just that git lab is the most or github is most accessible one And because i'm interested in the technology and not the political stance Uh, that that's my reasoning behind you know putting it on github is because it'll also get more attention But that was it was my say I could I mean hey, I could be wrong I mean and i'm open to criticism criticism helps me learn. So if anybody wants to Some stuff back. Actually, I don't care where it would be hosted. Um, because if you're gonna do a website and have your own url I'm not gonna know Yeah, you're like yeah Go ahead to start to turn over you say from what I have seen Media wiki is very very good at Just being wiki and hosting it information.   So they're not there They're off somewhere else on somebody else's server because get lab doesn't have the resources Well, it's not it's not just it's not it's not about it's not about the resources It's all 100% due to cost if you take a look at the the get lab Uh cost to actually store something. It's absolutely Ridiculous. It's 10 it's like $60 for 10 gigabytes. It's ridiculously expensive, right? It's yeah There's other things too like it, uh, you know, okay, so let's say this this project It's me and 10 other people or somebody really much cooler than me comes along and takes it over and it's them and 10 people um Because I work with the open source institute and I've been doing stuff with the open source collective like Look at how they do funding GitHub if you are doing something that like is a public good GitHub will throw money at you and they will give you all kinds of stuff for free They're they're free tier is absolutely great and as far as the storage sizes and stuff So if this actually got to be something that was big enough to matter Uh, github would fit the bill for that's I mean, you know, there's other stuff too But I do think that's important. That's a good good, uh criticism or something good to point out Is it like no a lot of people will be pushed away from that? I understand that well, there's I mean Theoretically at least while it's still small. There's no reason why you couldn't just pull a gnomon mirror it over to get lab yourself Um, if it right really bothered somebody. I mean that can be automated with the ci cd and all that stuff Uh fairly easily, but once it got to a certain point, there'd be no way for you could you could afford get lab I I and the thing is I don't know if what the prices are in github either So it could be possible that the github stuff is just as expensive But I know when I was going to host a whole because github is a very cool Thing to kind of like back up some stuff But if you want to back up anything big, I mean, it's not really what it's for but you I was looking at You know as a way to like back up like wallpapers, right? I have like 30 gigabytes of wallpapers because I'm ridiculous and every time there's a wallpaper that's posted on unix porn I have to download it Beside the point. Um, I have all these things and I wanted to everyone's always asked me Matt Where'd you get this wallpaper? Well, it's so much easier for me to say. Hey, all of my wallpapers are over on githlab But after I passed 10 gigabytes, I couldn't do it anymore because it was too expensive Well, yeah, because you can't yeah, you don't want to do images Absolutely not there you can compress them But there's no way you have to look at something like uh, whatever the git version is for games Which I know you could do there's it's not git it's something else But that's the one that can compress images now Honestly, the best thing you'd have to use a unity refill the best thing that I found to do it And this is going to this is going to take you back Flicker is actually the best place to host your wallpapers is because it's astonishingly cheap It's easy to upload in bulk and you can just go put everything All in one folder on flicker and just leave it there forever and pay like three dollars a year or some shit It's just I'm gonna do that whatever. I mean, I don't remember what the cost was but it's still very very easy And yes flicker indeed is still actually a thing. It's still around I actually think that it's not owned by yahoo anymore, which probably means that it will still be around in a few years Because they kill everything. Yeah, don't let yahoo touch it Yeah Yeah, go ahead How we embed video youtube videos on websites Like you do all the documentation In git and once it's updated it automatically gets updated in the websites Like the documentation website. Let's say we have a wiki for some project. Let's say xyz project And the front end is there on the website itself. So it is easier for people to find it But at the same time it is pulling from the documentation from github and as it Yeah, that's so right. So I host a couple of blogs And the the back end is on a github repo and then github gitlab has this too But it's something called github pages where you have a repo You have a git main branch and then you have a like a dev branch or something And you work off of the dev branch to make all your changes But then once the dev branch like hey, I like this I'm going to merge the dev branch into main and then once change happens to main It's it cycles in like hey We're going to go ahead and do and build an update and then because it's a github page. It's cheaper But it has a url and now it's the website So it just pushes as soon as there's an update and push it from your repo and boom it goes out into the website So when you want to give you the url for like the wiki website, you don't see any of the code It looks like just a regular website But that's it updates from github. So you're on the right track exactly what I was talking about or what I'm thinking about As it would do is you could It's much easier than actually maintaining a real real website because you could literally just from your computer At home you can make a change merge it and it's live So there's not it's much easier on somebody. There's a couple of blogs that I do like that This is so you're on the right track. Yes There's a also a potential downside is that if you do the documentation for other people, they will stop doing their own documentation Because developers hate doing that documentation So if you were to set up a situation where you were in charge of doing documentation for certain projects They themselves might not put any effort into doing their own documentation, which could be a downside I don't think that would be universal a universal problem, but you would experience that in some cases Which would probably not be great But no, absolutely. I I wouldn't advocate for like I like I said, that's and that's part of the Like yeah, do it as a github or get lab or some kind of repo is that you get the ball rolling And then I think it's important once you start talking about other people if you get other people's shit wrong It's the reddit effect, right? Everybody knows that joke about like a abacoding problem.  They won't answer my good question They'll come and tell the response why he's a complete asshole Which I've done that I thought it was a joke, but I've done that it works Reddit comments are always the best Yeah, so I so I get up there and I make a wiki page About open susan how it sucks and like 10 minutes later matt will be in my repo correcting me I couldn't do that. I don't I don't know nothing. So, um, that's yeah, all right Yeah, so alex will show up there and yell at me. I don't know somebody will show up there Somebody will show up there and yell at me. I don't I don't ever yell at anybody brother. That's not my style, man I love everybody and I just want everybody to be a great beautiful community Oh, I'll yell at you. I'll yell at you. I just don't I'm not gonna correct you When it comes when it comes to my typing my typing's atrocious, you'll never know if I'm yelling or not I Everything I fat finger everything One of my Zombie you were gonna say something this one I I agree. I I like the atmosphere here. I I've been watching you guys on youtube for a long time and I and I uh Um, this is the first time that I've ever actually decided to participate because you were talking about something that I thought was Was very important and relevant to what to what i'm going through right now Um, I don't think it's you guys. This is the match show We're just yeah, I should have called it that we're just the uh, I should be the freaking title The match show. Yeah the match. No, it's no, it's the it's the linux cast. We're just like the uh the I just I just popped in to visit We should we should oh, that's right. The linux Yeah, linux and or the linux tube and uh, that's alex and then there's uh, Matt for the linux cast This is the match channel and alex has got his own channel the rest of us are just Groupy plebs. I think I don't think there's any other professionals here. Okay, so the last thing that I have for you guys Is the thing that I always noob Yeah, okay eternal noob t-shirts available now Uh Uh lptstory.com You should buy you should buy a linux cast water at rattle. It's it's not as big, but it's it's good You know I can do that And I just I'm just joking Anyways, the last thing that I do is the on all these is to talk about the next one so that I can have some kind of plan And uh, I'm not taking inputs on this one actually because we're we're we're taking johns I believe john you were the one that talked about home labs. We're gonna do home labs next time. Yeah All right. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah, we're gonna. Yeah, we're gonna talk about home labs And I'm sure we'll devolve into all things linux hardware. Um, just because I might not it should be fun Anyways, that will that will take place on I don't know. I don't know what the date is It'll be the first one in march. It happens in the morning So if you those of you guys who are watching live, believe it or not, there were people who actually watched live almost 500 views So that's pretty good. Uh, if you want to join us, we can we do this twice a month Uh, I should actually have the days, but you can check the times and events in the discord server link in the video description. Um There you'll find where the When we actually do these but I do the first one in the morning So I catch people who, you know, can do the things in the morning and then I do one for uh on the fourth Fourth or fifth friday of the month in the evening that way can catch people who actually have you know day jobs and are in different time zones So if you want to join us, you can do so then, um Usually people hang out long after i'm gone. So feel free to do that of course I'm gonna hop out now, but the next time in early march. We'll talk about home servers And that should be very entertaining. So if you watch us live Thanks so much for watching. Uh, join us next time if you have a microphone and you feel like Inputting your two cents. Yes, I'd I'd love to participate.  I know Get a camera zombie You didn't specify we probably got a lot of cursed home This is this is just a pure linux operation the the the active directory is powered entirely by samba I oh, I I definitely don't want to talk about samba I have a sneaky suspicion that I have a sneaky suspicion that zombies Like simple home lab has a nuclear reactor Just a little I I'm just getting this vibe like maybe So this is a little simple thing This is a little simple thing, but I think like Not I don't have a nuclear reactor, but I but I but I do have a terrestrial television antenna attached to it All right, I think I think we've we've done it for me Anyways, I'm gonna hop out guys. Feel free to to stay in the room if you want to keep chatting. I'm I will Talk to you all later Okay