Something about tribunals, I've heard about classes. It's just very interesting. We've had a couple of Nidraji examples used based on what's going on currently in some of the country. Yes, in the country. Why people are going to court. Why we think court is all clogged up. The wheels of justice are moving quite slowly. I've learned quite a lot. I hope you have, too. And in case you missed an interview or caught it halfway or towards the tail end, that's fine. You can go to our YouTube channel. That is Y254 and catch it. Yes, my name is Valentine. Meanwhile, we have entered a different segment. This is a place where I have a panel. Last time I had a panel of men. But today I have a panel of gorgeous ladies. And we're going to talk about something that we have already posted on our socials. Now, at WhiteFive on Facebook, at WhiteFive for Channel on X, WhiteFive for it's underscore channel so you can interact with us. Use the hashtag WCW on your morning. You may talk on social Friday. Still Wednesday, guys. Still Wednesday. At least Keshawnee Thursday. Let me allow them to introduce themselves. Good morning, ladies. I'm going to come here and I'm going to do a book. And I'm going to do a book. And I'm going to do a book. And I'm going to do a book. And I'm going to do a book. And I'm going to do a book. What's your name? Okay, my name is Sajita. I'm an actress and also a musician. I'm a secular musician. Also, thank you very much for inviting me. Karebo. In 254. How can we thank you? I have a lot of money. Really? I have a lot of money. Karebo. Karebo. I have a lot of money. I have a post. I have a follow. But I'm a janitor.  I'm going to do a book here. I'm going to finish the first quarter. Do you know what's going to happen? I'm going to do a book here. YouTube Sajita Music. TikTok Sajita. Facebook Sajita. Instagram Sajita. Everything Sajita Sajita Sajita. You registered for MCSK? No. You should. You should have won. And you have to register. I'm going to do a book here. I'm going to do a book here. I'm going to see what's happening. You register. I love you every time you remove new music or you have a new project. You have to register it as well. Okay. Maybe you'll help me do that. Education. Education is there. I want to hear your name. Oh, good morning. My name is Levina Oseyomo. I'm a journalist. And also a musician as well. Gospel musician. Yeah. I'm going to do a studio. Exactly. I'm going to do a studio. Oh, yeah. Give it a try. Oh. I'm this close. Let's see if we have time before the show ends. But, hey, when you're in Bali, Vizuri, I like it. I really, really, really like it. All right. Welcome, lady. Can you tell us what you've been up to? I've been up on Facebook. I've been on YouTube.  I have to love my background as well. You go to YouTube. You find me with Levina Oseyomo, TikTok, Levina Elmard, Instagram, Levina Elmard, Twitter, Levina Elmard. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Are you going to ask me what I'm doing? I'm going to ask you, my motherland, my homeland. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Okay. All right. I'm going to ask you to call me and tell me what you've been up to. Oh, exactly. I'm going to ask you to call me and tell me what you've been up to. I'm Spanish. My goodness. And you know it's an international language. You have to know that. You're not even sorry about it. She's not even sorry about it. No, I'm not sorry. What do you think? What do you think? What's that? Luger. Bluier. Eh. So, you appear, as if I'm on YouTube. Yeah. How do you ask for food, Sana-Sana? I'm not going to ask. I'm not going to ask. Sorry. My bet, my bet, my bet. All right. So, I'm going to ask you to call me and tell me what you've been up to. I was told to translate by, or she has taught me to translate just in case we have international approval, not understanding the lingo. So, do friendships between females last. That's basically what we are talking about. So, come out and talk to me. And talk to me in the summer to comment and tell me what you've been up to. Eh. At the end of the day, I'm going to tell you what I've been up to. I'm going to ask you to tell me what you've been up to. I had a handsome, I had a handsome when I was a little, I was a little retuned. I saw, sis, mama, Stacy and Chase. I see you, Pandawake. The second show. You can tell me what you want. Eric and Boria, Oceanette, Po, Cantlast. Eh. Finesse, answer my comment. Show Ali, no Kweri. Eric, Kabasah, Kabasah, I'm in summer, I just went to Atwood School and or Westage, or Oceanette. Do you agree? And why? I don't know. I agree because mostly when I was a student I was always in the best shape I was in the relationship because most of the time when we go to studios when we get men there the first thing I remember when I was a kid I was in the relationship it was not going for a relationship I don't know if I'm going to be in love I don't know if I'm going to be in love I'm excited so I'm not going to be in love at least I'm in love I'm not going to be in love but I want to be in love most of the time I just want to use you so when I go to interview I want to be in love I'm sure I'll be able to say why the opposite is true I can say the result actually the point is very correct it rarely lasts very correct it rarely lasts relationships I want to work rarely lasts because most of our ladies are for like the competition between women and women mostly is too high so she'll be like this is my friend and she's doing like so actually by the time I hear that the relationship has ended so it rarely lasts because of the power of mouth we are given as women we talk too much where we have said no filters in this particular studio today do you understand if you were to have this conversation the two of you and you were trying to get to a middle ground what would you tell her what would you tell her maybe she has not passed away maybe what have passed because of me what happened at that time she took me to an interview so when she took me to the interview I said maybe I'll do it next time when I do it next time most of them they warned me and sometimes I saw that I told them that I was going to take him to the zoo but when I saw those men when I went to the square obviously you have to call you have to go to the gate to see the soldier so I was having that interview but just because I went I was going to call the soldier so what they did when they saw the soldier I said I'll interview him and if I want to join I'll interview him when I went I said don't even try don't even try to come to this place again so I told her she said I'm going to tell her she told me she's a baby she had a baby but I told her I'm going to tell her I said I'm going to give you sugar daddy I'm going to tell her most of those men are just harassing these girls by force but they don't give her anything they don't attack they don't attack but I'm going to tell her I'm going to tell her I'm going to give you the opposite and back it up there are stories my experience is also a different one my experience is also a different one because for a man to respect you you have to have some your appearance actually your physical appearance how you relate with them is very important for example like she said you know women are very funny you become too friendly with them they will use you they will use you like you are nothing but if you know your boundaries these men will fear you and they will really respect you so problem comes where our ladies if you want something you know best of what best of what side of which side exactly what do you want with that best thing to a man you know you see where we go wrong we go deep into this and we know very well that the weakness of our men is what they see you go to that place and you yourself you don't even respect yourself with a lot of jokes you just want to go there in jokes because you want something and what does that mean you want something that is very bad I can hear what you say but also what I hear her say is she didn't give room for herself to be misunderstood but they still try taking advantage is that what I'm talking about by the way if I were giving room to what they want I think I would be a billionaire I'm serious because if I were to ask I would ask I'm not a boy and I would say there is no need to interview especially if you want to just because you want to respect yourself let's say you want to interact but mostly most of the time you don't know you don't know you don't know because you don't know so you don't need another man first of all don't let your boyfriend come between you and your soulmate but continue your soulmate don't let your boyfriend come between you and your soulmate exactly you are able don't let him come between you and your rib actually we are doing wisdom out here so please rebutto do you agree with what she said? no I still don't agree with what she is saying why do you want it to agree? I still don't you know when you go somewhere it is not a must that you have there is no kind of kind you are harsh you don't even want to smile you don't even want to do what but you have said that you can smile no there is this one there is this joke in ladies with men which is too much that will make them take advantage of you they see you like this one looks so cheap because you never placed a boundary between you and the jokes you make with these men so this is where the problem becomes you you don't know if you become friendly with these people they will help you so you go overboard with your friendship to a point they see you as something which is not valuable to them they see you as something the only thing you want is to be close to them if we are going to use that school of thought that means then friendships don't last so they know my friendship so basically we don't have friends to me to me yes wow support your answer to me yes we don't have friends so how would you describe ok what in fact what is a friend who is a friend let me say a friend is something you someone you can be close to share your problems with and we have different types of friendship and mostly the friendship we have as ladies is this these are the one the fake one the pretence friendship one life for you to get a genuine friend that you can share with and your secret remains there very difficult and very rare that is why we find most of our ladies as we fail because of the type of friendship we have and the kind of people we call our friends here so nowadays it's very rare to find someone we call a real friend because jealousy is too high we are too jealous to help each other as ladies do you think so no I don't think so mostly mostly ok there is a time that it was a time that it was expensive it was expensive also it was expensive so to get because it was expensive to reduce it was expensive so I was I was like I hope it's not too bad because it's not too expensive because it's not too harmonized but it's not too expensive so I was I was I was presenters and channels so this is when I came here to present I was like who are you who are you who are famous just know that everyone knows you almost everyone so I was just rehearsed I watched it was good I was dreaming I was dreaming but I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was I was really do you all right not that I don't even know presenter but I'm very sorry for that experience but so give me a positive experience so that we can establish that indeed we can be friends who is your friends to you I have many friends I have many friends I have many friends when I want to shoot I want this and this so I don't know when I was I was going to shoot I was going to shoot so I went to shoot I was on the high but it was the October so it was not easy it's not easy it's not easy I was I was going to shoot then I went I was shooting I was very excited I said that I want that I was watching behind the scene I was very excited I was going to watch so I was thinking I was I was telling her that it's okay. Most of the time, I don't want to work in the house. So I get into a business, and if I get into a business, I'll have to pay. If I get into a business, I'll have to pay.  I'll have to make a living. but they are not free to work. They go back to the house to buy food. They don't know if they are free to work. They just stay at home. They are free to work. They are not free to work. They are not free to work. I am not just talking about the father and mother. There is a lot of food. There is support, there is advice for the children. I'm not just talking about the children. I'm also talking about breaking up. You want the part of her you got that part right and that is what I was talking about Our ladies they assume they assume Oh you see you get that part, that was my main point Why I say ladies who are mostly like to my power your character you are a chameleon When I'm with you Val I'll be red, when I come back to myself I'll be purple Yeah and if you follow keenly behind you they will give you the shoes and they will pretend like Oh I was not even as if I want to talk to you here till you get her point Come back behind the scene I help her with my shoe and I'll carry it And everybody will be aware that she gave you a shoe and you wasted it Yes I can't see the same in the sky Yeah, this is the way I see it He's trying to see me He's trying to see me How much money have I spent on the shoes? I'm not thinking about it I'm not thinking about getting posted everywhere I'm not getting that I'm not thinking about doing all of the birthday No, it's not like that You saw the shot He was wearing that day I can't see it How much money have I spent on the shoes? You see, I am not a woman. Even that is why a fair lady actually used 24 hours to fear ladies. Used that time to fear them. They will pretend. These creatures are good at pretending. They will pretend like the angels go behind the scene. They do the same thing. Oh yes, I do. Yeah, I am a woman. Wow. So you don't have a genuine friend. Perhaps, let's call them... Let's call it networking. So you network. Like you know females and then they help you in a certain way for a certain period of time. I do network. But Ulemsa, I am a Tanzanian. She said that I am a woman. Wow. Yeah. I will not love you that genuinely. Because I know that it's time you will bring me down. So I have to be careful with what I share with you. I have to be careful with what I want from you. So that next time when we have rangos, you will find it very hard to bring me down. Because you don't know much about me. Yeah. But it sounds like being vulnerable is working for you. Is it working for you? Yeah. Like making genuine friends. Yeah. I am a woman. Because I am here in two different schools of thought. But both of you seem quite alright with it. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Let's call them. Let me know in the comments. Please feel free to enter. In fact, I encourage you to interact kindly. So to scare when you were where you were. You were in Kira kid. La Roi. Where? Tuned at Kerecho Mall of you guys. Sit over there and let me know. It's cut. Okay. Madem to be any. Tuned in from Georgia. That's Van Vick. So I want to talk to you. You are not sure. We'll really buzz. Who says good morning from Kitale, Bironda. A key runner. I see you. Good morning. I'm from the United States. Of where? Guidedy present. Sanatunde. I see Simba. I see football updates. Okay. All right. But thank you for being on our wall. I see. Hello. I'm from Georgia. I came from Molo Nakuru. Keydogo, my ancestors come for me. Where's the Gibson's. Good morning. Ha'kesha Ha'kema. I was here because two time. I saw you. Hey gosh. Kwanee. Kwanee. Kwanee as in where? All that's all we are known from. Ombhaya. What's yours? Yes, Go see. Constructive... Constructive gossip, clearly. Yes. There is. Tell me. There is, for example. I have this passion of acting. Then I want to be... Let me just use our current actress in Kenya who is well-known, the Maria Lady in the cities and past some months back there was this show in Citizen TV, Maria. So I have this passion in acting and the person I want to copy is this lady and I find somebody we can talk about with a whole... Where did she go wrong? How did you see her? You get that part. Because you have some interest in something and you want to use somebody to achieve your goals. So there is nothing positive. Then there is nothing. There is nothing. If you look at my shoes, if you look at my shoes, you will be like... Why is she embarrassing ladies? Why is she like this actually? You get... Mostly what we do is to talk negatively about others and that is the truth. We should not lie here. That is very true. We are very true. For example, her... Yes, I die. For example, her. I am in a shoot now when those ones are friends. Now, let me tell you, we are not perfect. Maybe I misdeed my makeup.   I am not a makeup artist. I am a singer. I am a singer. I am a singer, but I am not in a shoot. You get that part. So ladies, ladies, ladies, you guys should seek redemption. Talk to me and I will talk next time. I am happy here.  I was very happy. Even those men who are taking those cameras just tell you that make this, make this, to stop Kwanzaa, would detengenize it. Those men. Good. Those men. Good. To your original point. Yeah, back to my original point. Those men. A man will rarely mislead you. But a woman might. Yeah, a man will. If you have a male friend, a genuine male friend, that friend will rarely mislead you. Those are the people who will be telling you exact thing you did wrong. Yeah.  Without correcting you. Because sit back and reflect on yourself. Maybe that was something I was gaining from you and I don't want to lose that chance.  Please change. Because I want something from you. But if you have this genuine male friend that will say, oh my friend, we are not going to embarrass me. Their car is something nice. I can't walk with the lady carrying this. Okay. Can I offer two cents? I think I've experienced both. I've experienced both types of females. Which I really don't think it's a personality thing. It's not about gender according to me. But we'll come back to that. I've experienced someone who we are or we were in the same space at some point. But I don't know if there's someone who will say, hey, why do you want to marry me? I'm like, why? You want to marry me? You want to be with me? Yes. If there's someone who will say, hey, I want to work with you. I want to be with you. I'm like, wow. I want to be with you. I want to be with you. That was one experience. But the same, same space, different females. I want to support you and be with you. I want to work with you. I want to be with you. I want to work with you. Maybe I feel like it's best suited for her. She has a job and I want to support her. So is it possible that it's maybe just a personality? And out of ten, you'll find half of that late. The remaining nine and a half will be born with a job. Now I pack it. Is it possible? It's just personality. It is personality. How do I even phrase it? Yeah, like I just want to be with you. There are those people who only want you two guys to be together to be level.  But there are people who are okay. They are okay with you growing. See, it's your time.  If you're with a band, wherever you are, you'll be with them. You'll be with a band. She's so not convinced. She's just looking at me. She's so not convinced. Why are you not convinced? No, I'm convinced. Yeah, I'm convinced because there's that half girl. Out of ten I talked about. Who will want you, will love seeing you moving from one level to another. And in most cases, if they are not your blood, then you have come from far with this specificity. Or maybe you have something in common related. We have this whole issue. If you meet them, you'll be with them. Those cases, which you will rarely find. So true friends are out there. They are there. But there's that half out of ten. They remain in nine and a half. We pay one half. No. They remain in nine and a half. You don't even trust them with your dress because the water will be dirty.  How are you feeling about it? Oh, there's something called favour. When you're in a job, you're in favour of your job. When you're in a job, you're in favour of your job. When you're in a job, you're in favour of your job.  So you know, people in the town are working hard and that's why they tell you, I'm giving you this job. You're paying work and you want to pay for it. You're not pay for working, you're paying for your job. So we tell you, we're doing our job in a way that can guarantee that. People came here because we were poor. People came here to help us. We should be working hard, but it's hard to get a job. It's hard. Yes, it's the balance of life. Do you think there's healthy competition as much as I guess females like competing? Do you think there's healthy competition like this? Yes, there is healthy competition. I have this friend of mine who really admires my voice. Every time she will be like, are you free? Can we just record some acapella? At least tell me how you put your tongue, tell me what you do so that your voice comes out like this. When she goes back, she will be practicing and she will be able to make a voice note. So you know, she is working hard to know something from you that she doesn't know and she has that interest. And I'll be like, how did you bring up your show to this level? Can you please tell me the steps or how you started so that the woman who is on that side. Then there's me and others who will be like... If I wasn't a lighter person, I would've sponsored them. It's because... It's because I was a lighter person.  There's that to me and others. Wow. It's healthy competition. I'm not the kind of person who does things that I want to do. But if you want to compete, you have to compete, but I can't go to the social handles and say, wow, I'm not good, this is not good, that's jealousy. I want to compete, I just want to be on top, but if you want to compete, it's so difficult, but you have to try.  Do you want to compete? Maybe she can encourage you to be on top, but no jealousy, no, that's not a good thing. Actually, let's talk about that green-eyed monster jealousy. Actually, if you find a lady who is jealous, you should have that big question mark. If you find a lady who is not jealous, then that one is not a woman. Allah? Explain further.  For example, today I'm jealous with your dress. I feel so bad because her cloth was better than mine, let me just put it in that context. Her clothes, I felt like your dress was too much, you were not to overdo it.  That is jealousy. That is jealousy. Maybe she can also feel bad. I don't want that dress again, because it's everywhere. Exactly. These already made dresses of ours. I don't know what the type had bought. I will not do that dress again. And that one will make you work so hard to find another dress because you are not going to wear that. And do you remember, that one is the reduction. So you are going to work hard to get some money and buy a different cloth. And that is jealousy. Alright, do you agree? That's what jealousy looks like. For you to prosper, there is jealousy. Because if you are jealous of something, you will have to work hard for it with your party. If you are not, you will be the one to do it. I think you are jealous of yourself because you are not going to work. You are going to do KBC, so you will be the one to do it. If you are not going to do what you want, you will be the one to do it. I have not done anything so far so far. What happens to self-identification? And that is now the aspect of, I want to try so hard to bring her down. Do you think about it? Yeah, do you think about it? Yeah, do you think about it? We'll be in the same level because you cannot be on top of me. I can't allow that. We have the same things and how can you be on top of me? So I will work so hard and those kind of women will be so close to you. I've seen that before.  That's a lot of effort. They don't get tired. They have the strength. They don't even sleep. They google everything throughout the night. How will I bring Val down? Is there a way you can see through such things? You think you're making a friend for life but really that's something else that they want to have a different agenda. Is there a way that you can see through that? Yes. How? I like the confidence. Yes, there is a way you can see through that. How? And the way is, Val, if you're my friend, I have to know the circle of your friends too. Why? Val, if you are my friend and I want you to be my genuine friend, I have to know your circle of friends too.  Because maybe there's some enemy of mine out there with your close friends and you're planning how you want to bring me down with this enemy of mine. Na akutume. Na akutume just to go close to her because she feels you don't know much about her. So I will be giving you tips and things to do to us so we can finish her completely. So if you want to be my friend, I'd love to know your circle of friends. Who are your friends? I'm calling you. Yeah. Who are these people you're hanging out with? How do you want someone to finish you? Yeah, I have to know your circle of friends for my safety and security. Because nowadays on social media everywhere out here we hear who so and so who's murdered this lady and look if what he'll do to her, her close girlfriend is among the people who planned her death. Yeah, so for me to be close to you I have to know your circle of friends. Yeah. But it will be so hard to know someone's circle of friends because maybe she's financially stable and you are not. What will they do? That's a good question. If she's financially stable and she is my friend and that means she doesn't like my low class. She will not want me to remain where I am and that means she will be introducing me to opportunities and this will make me meet her friends. Yeah. Okay. You're financially stable. I'm down. If you're my friend you will not love me being in that position. You will be like, what can I do to this friend of mine? Because most of the time she is busy. Those friends also were rich. That is not friendship now. That is what you were talking about. You're hanging on someone's coat and you call that a friend. That's not friendship. That's the aspect of hanging on someone's coat because maybe she or he is financially stable.   That is not friendship. Yeah. A good friend will love to bring you from that. If you have an opportunity she will be like, I got the supplies. That's why I say it. I am a doctor and maybe you are just a form for a form for a living. Do you want me to be giving you my salary just because I'm your friend? And you are a doctor.  That means if you are a doctor you are somebody who can get access to opportunities that can help me improve my education. But I cannot tell you come here. There is a work in the hospital when you don't even know to do with a patient. There is a cleaning job in the hospital. There is that opportunity. You will call me and tell me that there is this opportunity.  That is not friendship. If you are a cleaner maybe in that the same hospital and I'm a doctor my salary is higher than yours. So do you expect me to divide and also add you so that we can earn the same salary? No, that was not what I was talking about. What I was talking about is you said you were busy with your other colleagues that you cannot even, you will be ignoring me. How can a friend ignore you? Maybe because she is busy. Maybe because I'm working. That is saying that if you love them, create time for them. Let me just clarify. What I mean is you expect something from your friends. Yes, I expect something that what I say is don't give her the samaki tomorrow. Teach him more how to fish. And that is what I'm expecting from my friend. So when you are making friends, you make friends a bit higher than you whether in education, so that they can teach you. We can be in the same level. But maybe you joined, for example, Val, you are here. I'm a journalist as well. And you are here before me. Coincidentally, I found you where you became my friend. I mean, you are very well versed with what is happening here. And you know people more than I do. You get that? So if you are a good friend of mine, you will be telling me that, you know, this is how we do it here. And you will be telling me like, you know, I was this and this and this and I think if you do this and this, it will help out. Now that I'm here and you are my friend and you are very busy and you call yourself my friend, you cannot even find some good thing and tell me that, you know, my friend, I got some good thing and this one can fit us. You can try, I can try. According to her. Very busy, that she cannot even. Yeah, very busy. You can't be very busy for me if you are my friend. Create time for me, I will create time for you. You start ignoring me, that is not friendship.  And I was expecting you to be. You are my close friend and I was expecting you. If I call this my friend, even if she doesn't come around, there is some help she can give. Yeah. Do you feel like that's a lot for one person to be expecting from a friend? Yeah, maybe if you have several friends, then they can live to you. But one person, it's so hard.  Dying. Let me assume, let me assume I agree. But if we get time, we should be reasoning on this point. Let me assume I agree. Okay, let's agree to disagree because we have a few minutes left. Is time a factor? Make sure that you have spent an X amount of time so that you can actually call this person a friend. Do you need to get into a fight so that you know how you deal with each other if you're going to be disrespectful just because you're disagreeing? Because not two people will ever agree on everything. Maybe perhaps how you are raised, maybe it's your religious beliefs, maybe moja na amini, umgine na amini. Or, you know, for example, both of you are artists, but two different genres. Moja na secular, moja na gospel. What's your friends? Does that play in also? I'm aware, let's not try to not work with a gospel. I'm aware, I try to not work with a secular. How do you want me to do that? I'm a secular artist. Most of the, like me, I'm a secular artist. I'm born again. I'm a secular artist. I should look for friends who are also secular musicians. I also have many friends who are gospel singers. And your opinion on the matter? Let me say African music. Let me just say my country is for income, for being famous. That is what our Kenyan music industry does. And that gives me a point of not choosing that I must be with my gospel artist as my own friends. Because if I'm a gospel artist, I can do it because I need my YouTube to grow, and not because I'm worshiping God. I just chose to be in that industry. It is a music industry. And it maybe sometimes doesn't believe that I'm a believer. Actually, I can be even singing gospel music and I don't even go to church. You tell me to go to church on Sunday or Saturday. I'll be like... I don't go to church all night.  But you get the point. So it's not a must. Because maybe you can have that strong believing and your fellow secular artist doesn't have that strong believing. You can use that opportunity to bring someone from the world to the kingdom. You can use that opportunity. So it's not a must. I like that reason. I think upon your little... Yeah, you sound... I don't know if you can hear me. I'm making a head nod. Now we have a minute or less to go. Good time. We've said time is also a factor here. Like I just need to learn you. To see if you can meet your best friend. That we're in agreement. So sisters out there should learn who they are calling friends. To be able to choose someone. That's where discernment comes from. All right. Thank you so very much. I really wish we could have this conversation ongoing. But it's about that time. My name is Sachita. Sachita is our mother tongue name. So most people can say I'm Sachita. And they can say I'm a cheetah. Most of that was when I came up with an animal's name. Wow. It was a cheezy symbol. So you were... Sachita is not cheetah. Sachita is just as welly. You just write to Sachita the way it is. The way you sound it. So YouTube is Sachita music. TikTok is Sachita. Instagram is Sachita. Facebook, Emily is Sachita. You just want to say thank you. I just want to say thank you for my people who are watching. My grandmother. Esther Yuma. And my uncle. Benedicky Chechi. My sister. Eunice. Sylvia. Phyllis. And also my best friends. Mama Misha. Mama... Mama... What's been cool? Mrs. Ayumu. Let me just say Mrs. Ayumu. I know that she is watching me right now. Also other people are giving me job. Thank you for giving me job for understanding me. For taking care of me and my siblings. God bless you. Also for my pastor Mofat. I love you so much. I love you so much. I love you so much. I love you so much. I love you so much. I love you so much. I love you so much. I love you so much. I love you so much. I have many of them. Seriously? You have to go now. You have to go now. Okay. My name is always I'm Levinla. I'm a frequent visitor here. And most of the viewers knows me. Salamu to my mother. Just a symbol. Thank you. I know. Thank you. My mother. And you and comrades. Okay. I know some of them are now here following you. Okay. Thank you so very much for coming. Both of you have enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much. You're very interesting guests. Thank you for inviting us. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Aya, you. Thank you for staying with me since the Bininging. Or if you came in halfway. Either way, thank you. I appreciate you. My name is Valentine from Myself and Grashame. Thank you. Goodbye.


I'm very pleased to introduce to you two gentlemen today. First on my far left, Professor Gerard Gogan is a professor of media and communications at the University of Sydney. He has an international reputation for social justice and disability activism. His research focuses on social, cultural and political aspects of digital technologies and how they affect disability and accessibility. He's published 20 books and over 170 journal articles and book chapters, and is a board member of the Disability Studies and Research Institute. And his Wikipedia page is way out of date. I promise you, Gerard, it will be improved by the end of this conference. He's recently returned from Singapore. He's back at University of Sydney and it has a whole... Anyway, it needs updating. Graham Pierce probably needs no introduction, but I will anyway. He is a Wikipedia rock star. Graham made his first edit on the 17th of February, 2005. He corrected the spelling of kananara. It has two n's, not three. Since then, he has made more than 258,000 edits across more than 147,000 pages, has himself created more than 14,500 pages, and, importantly, he has thanked more than 2,700 people, WikiStyle. He's a founding member of Wiki Blind User Group, and his own user page is full of barn stars and thank-yous from fellow editors, which, as we know, says a lot. So I'd like to now hand you over to Graham and Gerard. So just thanks again to Bunty and to Frances, and it's a great pleasure to meet you, Graham, and so I suppose I just wanted to invite you to tell us a bit more about yourself. You're obviously well-known to some and many here, but could you tell us a bit about yourself and how you came to Wikipedia? I'm Graham Pierce. He's an Graham 87. I'm totally blind. I was born... I became blind because I was born 15 weeks premature. It's called Resonopathy of Primiturity. You can Wikipedia it. I've always been interested in correcting people's mistakes, and if I'd get work brailed out for me, I'd find all the mistakes and want them to be corrected. So Wikipedia was kind of a natural fit for me when I'd finally discovered what it was. I first found Wikipedia through a copy or mirror called thefreedictionary.com, but it took me a few months to realise what Wikipedia actually was and that I could edit it, and once I started editing it, I was hooked for it basically. That's great. And so can you tell us a bit about also, maybe, you know, the technology you used, or the technology you used initially, and also the technology you're using now when you, you know, get about and edit Wikipedia? You mean the technology I used when I started on Wikipedia? Well, yeah, I would be quite interesting. I have to out myself because, actually, one of the areas I'm really interested in is internet histories, and actually I started an academic journal called Internet History, so I'm kind of interested also in how things progress. So I would be interested to hear you talk about early days in terms of using the technology and then what you do now. I guess we don't have all day, but I first started on the internet in the late 1990s at a computer club at what was then the Association for the Blind. I didn't get home internet access till the year 2000, and by then we were using Windows 98 and Internet Explorer 5. And I've always used a screen reader called George, which makes a computer talk to me. And now I use George with Chrome, which probably some of you would be familiar with. So what Bunchy might do now, and Josh might do, is just play a clip from Think A Peace You Did With SBS. Because I'm blind, I use, I think, a screen reader that makes a computer talk to me. I've been using this sort of technology since I was about four years old. I just practised so I could listen to it at a very high speed. So somebody's obviously had stuff that they shouldn't have to be article. Every day I probably spend about four to eight hours in Wikipedia. Sometimes more. So I think the idea of that was really so that, Graham, so you didn't have to get your kit gear set up to actually replicate the sounds of what you do with the screen reader in your computer as well. But tell us a little bit about that set up that you have as well, because you've now got a quite small computing device that you work with. It's a thing called a NUC, or Next Unit of Computing, Next Unit of Computing made by Intel. There's sort of a bit like MacBook Air. They're very small. It's box with a computer in it, and you connect a monitor, I don't need a monitor, but you can connect one, or a keyboard, or headphones, or whatever you need. Great, thank you. Unfortunately, I think it doesn't power. It has to have the one you've got needs power, so we've got this venue that's a bit trickier. So can you tell us a little bit about how you started to approach Wikipedia. I think it was covered a bit in the clip, but just to tell us a bit about how you really started to start to edit in Wikipedia and then sort of progressed to become an administrator. And the kind of things that took your interest, it's really interesting to just hear a bit about what really drew you to it. Yeah. The first things I started to edit were actually a list of interesting or unusual post names, as Spunty was according to in the intro, where I was fixing a spelling of the count of Kananara. And then I edited random things I studied at school, or just really completely random things that took my interest. One of my first edits was about one of the hottest towns in Australia called Marble Bar, because I'm obsessed with... One of the things I'm obsessed with is the weather and meteorology. And I added in the exact dates of the record run of high temperatures there. And so I had the reference as well, which is very unusual for 2005. And I really hit my stride when I found what's now called the typo team, where people got ranked right in typos. And I just found that really interesting, reading random articles. I corrected the typo, but people would spell Portuguese without the U. And I found all sorts of interesting articles about like a famous female racing driver, all sorts of random things about... and how to do a Portugal and Portuguese. And I just got hooked in from there, really. And so what happened then? Was it partly that, as well as just having that opportunity to work with things that you were curious about or found interesting, that were you... Was there something about sort of seeing that resource and feeling that it was incorrect or there were problems with it that you were keen to then work on and then eventually become a custodian of? Is that part of what sort of animated you drew you to it? Yeah, I think it just happened organically. Like, yeah, I would add... On Wikipedia, a lot of regular users have a thing called a watch list, a list of articles they keep an eye on or an ear on, in my case. And I just had any article that was interesting, really, and it just built up and built up until it was very substantial. And what was the shift like when you then moved to being an administrator? Did you find that kind of shift in going to that? It wasn't a major shift for me, but the biggest problem was always new buttons that were kind of in the way, like a rollback button. But that's a problem for science people, too. Yeah, I don't... Actually, when I became an admin, that's when I started getting really into Wikipedia archeology or wiki archeology. Right. Yeah, and can you tell us a little bit more about wiki archeology? I mean, for the non-initiated, what is that, and why is it important? Well, on Wikipedia, every edit should ideally be saved in what's called original history. And Wikipedia archeology is like looking back through history and finding things about when the article was made or sometimes I do a history emerge which basically fixes attribution errors. So you can see who actually wrote the article properly. And occasionally, there's times where history was missing completely because it had been deleted years ago. One of the most notable gaps is actually the article about the Italian mafia, of all things. Quite a sec. So, I mean, this kind of works really crucial to the sort of integrity, right, of Wikipedia in doing this kind of restoring and going back through to make sure this is complete record. Yeah. Is that the kind of stakes in it, in a way? Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that you've got that you've got some sort of more public attention for is trying to stop and intercept vandals. Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, that kind of the ways in which that's come under your radar and sort of the things you've done around that? A lot of the articles on my watch list are not subject to I'm interested in. They're the subjects where I've found vandalism that's lasted for more than a couple of days. And sometimes I just find it by reading. Like, I remember one day I was reading this article about, I think it was the term neurosis. And it said, this term was coined by Hannah Johnson in the 18th century. And I was thinking, that'd be really unusual to have a woman doctor in the 18th century calling a term like that. That sounds a bit sus. So I looked in the article history and yeah, it had been vandalised probably a month or more before. And I went to fix it. It's been on my watch list ever since.   Or what do you think sort of lies behind that? Most of the short term vandalism is probably just board school kids, aren't we? We've got nothing better to do. The longer term stuff, like the boy band vandal you heard about earlier, that I don't understand, but people are obviously lots of people who do it. Yeah, I mean, maybe that's part of a sort of broader, whether it's a like a pastiche or satirical or other ways that people maybe take things and remix them too. Yeah. Maybe it's part of a continuum or something like that, yeah. Interesting. Well, I wanted to just ask you, I wanted to just sort of shift direction slightly and just to ask you about maybe from your experience and the work you've done as well around questions of accessibility. Because obviously with, I suppose with the web and with things like projects like Wikipedia, I mean, one of the issues, and I imagine one of the ones that's animating this conference as well is about the accessibility and inclusiveness of it. So for say, for people with disabilities and a range of other people, I mean, how accessible has Wikipedia been? I think it's reasonably accessible because there's a standardized way out but there is always room for improvement. To sign up, you need to fill in a capture and the only way to fill it in is by looking at the picture. There's no audio alternative. And looking at diffs, I've found a way around that but it's a bit interesting sometimes. Yeah, so I mean, can you tell us a bit?   One of my most famous or infamous work of that was in 2006 when, for example, Wikipedia had come up with a new main-page design which it still uses for its home page and the problem was the initial design and I didn't have any headings in it and blind people rely on headings to navigate a page and I complained about that and they've put the headings back for me. So it was something that's fairly easy for people to take some sort of corrective action on that case. And what, I mean, in the next, I don't know, five to ten years, what kind of challenges do you see or that would need to be tackled in terms of accessibility? I think the most important is a much more accessible capture. I don't know if this is still true but I remember reading the capture it's also only in English, not in any other language and that's problematic as well. Yeah, it's, yeah. I mean, it's an interesting thing with the capture because I think people have been trying to work to get some change in action for quite a while but there seems something around, and ironically around identification, right, just verifying people that that's a huge blockage where it's increasingly now, whether it's Wikipedia or across different technologies, that's really become so critical, I suppose partly because of the hackability of systems, right? Oh, yeah. Another kind of question that I was interested in, I think, might have wider resonance as well is about within, say, Wikipedia itself in terms of the actual content and material. Is there a kind of movement about as there has been, I think we'll hear in the next session around, say, and we heard earlier today around the sort of diversity and the range of representation and inclusion. Is there a movement around disability representation with Wikipedia entries? And what's the state of play in that? I mean, I work on other areas of media where people are pretty annoyed that, you know, were annoyed that there hadn't been like a more diverse representation of people with disabilities on television or different platforms. Where does, what's the state of play as you see it with Wikipedia? I'm not honestly the best person to answer that question. I think there have been small-scale efforts but the problem is with a lot of disability content there aren't many references. But the times I've tried to find references, it's not been very easy at all and it's honestly not worth the effort for me. For fundamental thresholds. I feel like we probably in university have got a bit of a role to play there in terms of producing some material, I suppose, and references as well. I mean, my sense on that count is there is more material coming through but I'm intrigued.  So I mean, I've got colleagues who've worked on, they call it, say the pipeline to participation in digital technology and digital culture. I did say, well, look, you know, is it a, you know, in your case, obviously it's a very rewrite-edit culture, right? You're very engaged in the community here, many represented here are very actively engaged, right? But what's that pipeline look like for people and is that something that needs attention? Is there a sort of disability participation gap in Wikipedia or in other digital cultures? I think there is, but I'm not the best place to how to deal with it, I'm straight to everyone, I just prefer to go in and edit. No, fair enough, indeed. Well, look at this stage, maybe we should just open it up to questions if anyone has questions and comments. Oh, there's one minor thing I want to say. Yeah, please, forgive me, go ahead, Grant. Bunty had said I created 14,500 pages. That's not quite... It is actually a technique, but a lot of those creations were me fixing attribution errors in page histories and fixing authorship. I probably only created about 200 in total, like actual articles or expanded them. I'm not one of a super creator. Well, it's kind of interesting in a way because I suppose with editing, there's long been that sense of pre-digital that the role of the editor is in some ways to be invisible or the work that gets done is incredibly important, whether it's in the infrastructure, in the custodian, in curating, but in a sense it doesn't get some of the glory of the creator. That's why Bunty was suggesting 14,000. Yeah. Well, look, let's go... Let's go and hear some questions. Yeah, please go ahead. I just was wondering... Yeah. Sorry, can I just... For the people on Zoom, we carry his house... So the question is about the Paralympic project and someone drawing our drawing grants or reminding Graham about the Paralympic project Yeah. I was heavily active in that for about a year. I actually became really interested in it. I was on the edges for a while, but I became really interested when I found out that there was an order of... There was a medal of the order of Australia missing in one of the entries, and I'm like, let's find out if there's any more. And that actually got me hooked in of all things. I helped clean up... I helped clean up articles written by one of the other Paralympic editors and created a few of my own, but there was so much to do and such a high volume of work that I'd just go back my involvement after a while. Thanks Graham. Thanks very much for the question. I think that's really interesting. Please go ahead. Thanks. I loved hearing about the typo club. Sounds like a club I would like to join, but I was just really curious to know what a typo sounds like to you. Because hearing the screen reader, I was kind of wondering, is it just that a typo gets rendered as separate letters rather than a word? Is it an approximation? What do you hear when you hear a typo? It tries to make an approximation of the word. There are some typos where I can't tell that they're typos. Actually, I got in a lot of trouble when I started editing because I didn't really know the difference between how it's built wear and tear properly. Because my screen reader said wear and tear. Some typos are very obvious. Like, if you miss out the second eye initiative, the screen reader will say, inattentive. If you miss out a U in Portuguese, you'll hear Portuguese. So, yeah, it was typos like that that I usually worked on. Yeah, I did wonder if there was something that made them stand out more for you or that sort of attracted you. Sorry, could I ask a second question? Actually, could you mind introducing yourself as well? Sorry, of course. My name is Fiona Romeo and I work on Culture and Heritage at the Wikimedia Foundation. One of the things I'm obsessed with in that role is images and increasing visual representation on our projects. But I think it's my understanding that that's one area where Wikipedia actually isn't great from an accessibility point of view. As a primarily text-based project with predictable structuring, that's good. But actually, I think fewer than 5% of the images, even on English Wikipedia, have good alt text. So I'm wondering if that's something that sort of disrupts your use and enjoyment of the projects and if you have thoughts about what we could do. Honestly, alt text is the sort of thing I don't know what I'm missing out on. It's hard for me to give feedback on alt text because I can't see the image myself. The awkward thing is that the images have captions and often they're sufficient as alt text but you don't really know if that's the case or not. And the other unique thing about Wikipedia is that most images have links attached to them, they link to the file page or to the media viewer page. It's a hard problem and I don't really know what the best solution is there. Hi, it's Tom Graham. I live in Western Australia as Graham does and I rely quite a lot on Graham's administrative capacity to be able to fix up things where in the past I used to ask a more active admin community in part of Australia that I'm in but it's reduced. So I'm wondering of the sorts of challenges that I've asked you, Graham in the last year or so of dealing with a range of issues what do you think the most problematic ones that you've said no, so I don't want to know about. I'd be interested to know what your reaction would be to that. What's the most problematic ones? Honestly, I honestly can't remember. I'm just suggesting there are any technical things or more whether it was certain sorts of editors or editing behaviours that you just find problematic that you would rather just let somebody else deal with. Yeah, I don't like dealing with complex communication like things that require a lot of communication. I just want something that's more black and white really. But I've been very impressed by what you've been able to scan through on something and solve and it makes me wonder more and more about what Jaws is actually doing for you to be able to get through fairly large either talk page items or large articles. Is it what you were saying earlier on to do with headings? Sometimes, yeah. Yeah, sometimes it can be for headings. Sometimes I just know where to walk for something. Yeah. Thank you, Grant. Thank you. You've got a couple of questions. Thanks. Hey, Graham. It's Meredith Porzacki from the Movement Communication Team at the Foundation. For those of you that may not know, Graham volunteered to participate in the Sound Logo Contest and he actually screened close to 3,000 Sound Logo submissions, which is just incredible. Thank you. So I'm curious, Graham. What was it like? Were there sound vandalisms that you caught? You caught a few that were very obvious copies of well-known sounds, like one of them I think was the ABC Australian news opening chart. So what was that experience like? And I'm also curious to learn, how did you review sounds with a screen reader, and what was that process like for you? It was kind of, it was interesting, but it got more hectic as it went on. And yes, it wasn't vandalism, and someone took a lot of care to make a brief production of the Channel 10 news thing. That was interesting. And there was also some more creative vandalism as well. With a screen reader, it was pretty straightforward. The only minor problem was when you hit the play button, you'd hear this sound cannot be played, but I just ignored that. We need to screen read you. We need to ignore a lot of things. Thanks very much. Here we have another question. Thank you. Hey, I'm Sadeep. I'm from India. I also work with the cultural heritage team at the foundation. I've been a Wikimedia as well for a long time. And my question is about navigating that subtle difference between a curious newbie and a vandal. How do you do that? A curious newbie and a what, sorry? And a vandal. A clear-cut vandal. I have a joke with a good friend of mine that I'm a Wikimedia meanie. It is probably true. I'm probably more harsh than some other people would be. It's all a matter of intent. And you're like, are people editing good faith or not? And sometimes that can be hard to tell. You've got to just think, would I as a newbie do something like that for the good of a project or if I really just messing around? And sometimes it's really obvious when they're messing around, but sometimes it's not obvious what they're actually trying to do. Was a copyright violation. Oh, naughty, naughty. Yeah, so I didn't know, and then someone came and told me, and today I have like more than 200 quality images, more than 12 featured pictures and comments. So like I did need that first hand holding in a way. And I think that's something that's missing on our projects and could benefit a lot and bring in more people. Yeah, mentorship is hard on Wikiprojects. Mike Dickerson from New Zealand. Following on from the alt text question, I was sitting here puzzling and I'm sure other people are. It's my first time even encountering something like a screen reader. I hadn't even entered my consciousness and now I'm wondering, what are some things that we as cited editors do that make your life harder? Well, what could we do differently to make your life easier when we're editing? Some of the hardest things are relatively esoteric. Like putting blank lines with no content between list items. If you write, say, star A, then press enter twice and star B even enter twice and star C. Instead of coming out as a list of free items, as you'd probably intended, it'll come out as a list of one item A, a list of one item B, a list of one item C and that's really hard to read for a screen reader. And also, please don't move the table of content around into weird places in the Wikimarker because we sort of expect the table of content to be in a certain place when it's moved around that can be disruptive. On the English Wikipedia, a few people have kindly made bots to fix a lot of weird problems for me. Yeah, that's really cool. I wanted to just pick up, I think, what you were just saying there about, I mean, is there a play screen that you see for either the classic kind of training or toolkits or FAQs to sort of address some of those kind of issues you're just talking about then? You see value in Wikipedia's been thinking about? There is a very sense of accessibility guideline which has sort of information about that. And there's a more simplified page called Accessibility Do's and Don'ts, where I had to go in and fix help fix the accessibility of that page. That's great.  But also, I just wonder, I mean, how do you see, you know, Wikipedia in, say, five or 10 years? I mean, what's your vision for it? And also, what would you like to be doing in that vision? I honestly don't know. Like, a lot of the things that I want for Wikipedia are very esoteric. I'd like to be able to... I'd like to be able to move edits around easily, more easily, like a revision move feature, but it's very hard. But for how it will be in the next 10 years, honestly, who knows the way technology is going and AI and stuff. Just, yeah, it's impossible to know. Hopefully, it will be better. Yeah, it just looks like we've got time for just one final question. So, I understand most of your editing is on English Wikipedia. Have you tried other projects, and what's your experience of accessibility on the other projects? Yes, I have tried... I have, as a quite a lot of other projects for various reasons. I uploaded a lot of classical music to Wikipedia Commons, and I also uploaded images of white canes to Commons. The only accessibility problems I've ever had were related to the capture and trying to become auto-confirmed so you can bypass the capture. And I actually got blocked from the Chinese Wikipedia once. Because they were like, what are you doing? You don't know any Chinese, and you're trying to become auto-confirmed. And I had to explain that I'm blind and I'm trying to fix some links on their pocket, and they did unblock me. There you go. Well, look, this might be the point I think we need to close. So, I just wanted to thank you, Graeme. It's just been a real pleasure to meet you. And also, thank you so much for sharing with us and talking a bit about, you know, your contributions to Wikipedia, how you see things, as well as some of these, you know, kind of accessibility issues and so on. My sense is that your contributions have actually been deep, varied and consistent. And that you managed to sort of just get on with it. I think you seem to have that practical ability and desire to really nurture what Wikipedia is. And I think that's obviously why you're held in great esteem by the community and more widely. So, thank you very much indeed for today.


You know, this time in history is kind of weird compared to prior eras of human history. Because whereas our ancestors were probably mostly concerned with not dying of the plague, now modern people wonder about these really existential crises questions. Right? Like what do I do with my life? What is the work I am born to do? And honestly, the very question of what makes life meaningful is an evergreen human question. But I think now more than ever it's something that a lot of us wonder about. Now in this video, I thought I would share a bit about my own journey and my own story of finding the work that is my dharma because I think it can really help you. Hey guys, Alex Hine, author of the book Milk the Pigeon, a field guide for anyone lost in their 20s. You can check it out. It's now on Amazon and Audible. So I've included a link right below this video, which is for a free journaling worksheet.  It's the first link there. Now for me, you know, my best friend unfortunately in my 20s was kind of a perpetual feeling of being lost. Like I had what maybe many of you may have too, which is that you have your material needs met, you have a job, you're not starving, you can pay your rent, but you just really don't like your life that much.  One of the first things you do is probably quit that job, right? Well, I was the same way too. And I was, you know, mixed up in this ball of feeling like I should be so grateful, like everyone said because I had a job. But all I wanted was the feeling of feeling alive again. All I wanted was to feel like my life had meaning and purpose. And there was a reason to actually show up to this job, besides having to just pay my rent to exist on a piece of land and do that for 40, 50 years and somehow call that a life. I remember having all these uncomfortable conversations with my girlfriend at the time because she was, you know, a first generation immigrant. She was always talking about like career, school, being focused on work, but she hadn't entered the real world yet. You know, she hadn't entered the working professionally for a couple years, understanding how monotonous it's going to be for the next decades. You know, for her, it was like, why can't you be grateful? But for me, it was, I just really don't like life that much, but there's nothing wrong with it. So this was the time where I got back from moving to China. So I had just come back home. I was 24, 25. And I realized that I really had just one primary goal. My number one primary goal was that I wanted to feel excited about my day to day life. And I was willing to fight, kick, claw, whatever it took to build a life where that was the case. Because to me, I realized that there was no amount of money that really excited me or made me feel good about life. Primarily, it was a feeling of excitement about what I was working on primarily in my work quadrant of my life.  If you don't like it, there's almost no amount of money that can make it worth it. So around this time, as I'm really doing all the work possible to find work that excites me, I was reading this book Mastery by Robert Greene. And in the book, he talks about the case histories and the biographies of some of these renowned people who are known for being masters in their fields. And he talks about Charles Darwin being one of those people. And he talks about how Charles Darwin went on this journey via a ship. And he ended up in the Caribbean. And one of the things he was doing was he was studying these barnacles for some crazy amount of time, like a decade, so that he could formulate his theory of evolution, make it credible and acquire enough evidence that when he presented it to the scientific community, they would analyze it through a skeptical eye and still see the value and the accuracy and the truth of this Darwinian theory of evolution. And it just made me think about, you know, Robert Greene talks about following your natural inclinations. And it got me reflecting back on my life. You know, as a kid, was there something I always gravitated towards that was fun, that was interesting, where I lost track of time, and what was that thing?  I saw this picture of myself as a kid, where I was always reading books about doctors and herbal medicine and mysticism. And if you could sum up my passions in one main thing, it was the intersection of medicine and mysticism or spirituality. And so as I'm reading about this, as I'm picturing this kind of story, this narrative in my head, I begin to feel, you know, goosebumps and intense feeling of excitement and just elevated energy, like I'm, oh, that would be cool. That's exciting. And I thought back to all of these stories I'd read about the great sage physicians throughout history, where the patient had been to all the great doctors of the time, and yet they went to this one, you know, the wise into person of the woods, and they fixed them. And I was like, that is what I've always wanted to learn. Whatever that is, whether it's learned from one of those people, become one of those people, this is my craft. Now, I don't want to go too much more into my story, but I do want to share that the difference is the subjective feeling internally. The difference is that before this time, I always felt like I was looking for the path. You know, I always felt like I was looking for what was out there for me. What is my passion? What is something I really like? What should I do with my life? And the difference now is that I feel like I'm pursuing. I'm in pursuit of I'm on the right path. And now I'm like, well, what is one year down that path? That's going to be pretty awesome. What is five years down that path of pumped versus when I felt lost before my mid early 20s, maybe 10 years ago, I was, I felt so listless. I felt so unhappy because I was trying to figure out, find the thing. But now it feels like the thing has been found. And it's like I'm on a ninja warrior obstacle trail that I want to be on this obstacle course. And it's like one hand hold these to the other leads to the other. What's just on the other side of this. And so I think if you're searching for that feeling, number one is look for the feeling. Don't chase the external job or person or whatever. Try to recognize the feeling of excitement. And then let that be your compass for finding the work that is really most important to you. Because otherwise you end up doing the becoming the doctor because that's what you think is it or your mom said that, or you become the lawyer or the entrepreneur because it's cool and it's powerful and it has security, or you choose the decision out of fear, which is not a good decision. Look for the feeling first and then recognize that when you see it externally. Alright guys, again, my other book milk the pigeon. I literally wrote it to answer those exact questions existentially. So you can check that out. That will be a resource that will help you. And then again, the first link below this video is for a free journal and worksheet that will help you figure out what to do with your life and how to plan it going forward. So that it's awesome. Right. For you guys go, I have two related videos for you here.