I think we'll kick it off and thank you so much everybody coming in person and on the computer and just making sure technical issues are all sorted before we start saying too much everybody can, everybody can hear me fine and even seeing a few of us in the room right thumbs up. Wonderful hybrid meetings alright. So Nicole, do you want to pull up the PowerPoint or the PDF that we have for the presentation. And the first slide is simply the agenda, so we'll go through that and make sure that we're all okay with saying hello introduce ourselves and then we'll just ensure that no changes to the agenda. So I'll take the first step here to introduce myself so Jonathan Slason, the project manager from the consultant team at RSG. And we have another consultant team member Desmond associates who will participate. We'll see the timing of this, but we'll weigh in in September on some of the parking management strategies particularly pricing sensitivity, where he'll have Andy Hill has particular expertise here and familiarity with the city. So I'll turn it over to Nicole for sure. I'm Nicole Loesch from DPW. I'm just barely at the edge of the camera here. Yes, that is me for everybody joining from zoom. Thank you all for joining tonight. We'll do we'll finish our introductions and then yeah we'll just ask the committee before we keep going if there are any changes to the agenda. But yeah what and I keep going around the room. I guess I'm looking there right. Yeah, that is the camera. Hey everyone, Jack Hansen on the East District City Councilor and the chair of the transportation energy utilities committee. Hi everyone, my name is Jane Stromberg of the Ward 8 City Councilor and I'm a member of the transportation energy. I'm Mark Barlow. I'm the North District City Councilor and I'm also a member of the transportation energy utility. Great. And let's turn it over. Max you mind just going first and then we'll go to Kirsten next. Yeah, no problem. Hello everybody. I'm max I just graduated from UVM Burlington resident I'm out in Washington right now, because I did a fishing season in Alaska, but luckily that ended early. So let's get to this call in video. Hello everybody. Thank you. Hi, I'm Kirsten Merriman Shapiro, and I work for Champlain Housing Trust and serve as a member of the committee. Great. Wonderful. And I can see Marshall on the call if you want to just introduce yourself and then we'll go through the other attendees that I can't quite see their names. Hi everyone. This is Marshall Distal. I'm a transportation planner with the Chittenden County Regional Planning Commission. Right. And I'll just add to we know that Charlie's on the committee. He can't make it tonight. He did send some email comments will make sure we share with everyone. And we may also be joined by Kelly, representing Old Spokes Home, Transportation Equity Coalition. So we'll look for her either here or maybe joining the call. Maybe Amy, I have Amy Burns from RSG. Just say hi, Amy. Oh, actually, I haven't allowed the non-panelists to speak. Okay. So should we just simply state their names or what do we do? I think just a public comment period. All right, so we have other attendees and we'll allow public comment periods. So at that point, Marshall will need to allow speaking. Great. So thanks. I'm still feeling out these hybrid meetings as well. What is the appropriate approach? So committee members, we have the proposed agenda here on the on the screen that we have the parking management plan purpose and goals will review. We'll have a public comment period again, given the number of attendees. I don't think we'll have a time issue, but we will be sensitive to the amount of time. There phase A status and findings. We're going to go through a lot of data and results from the initial work that we've been working through over the last couple months. And then phase B, we have a scope of work that we have tabled that we want to get your input on, but there's also an action at the end of the meeting regarding the phase B scope. And then we'll come back to a quick public comment period with any other comments on the phase A and phase B work, and then the actions. So we want to have a discussion and hopefully a motion to approve the phase B scope of work. And then we'll have within the state scope of work phase B there is a survey element and we want to nominate two members to serve on the on the role to develop that survey. So there'll be an action there. Any changes to the agenda. All right, good. Wait, an appropriate amount of time before moving. So we'll go to the public comment period. Next, right, and then we'll go through the rest of the slides. Let's just do. Let's just take care of that right now. So Marshall, if you can, we'll come back to you. Yeah, we'll jump back to these will just while we're still talking and introduce people. Sorry. So, Marshall, if you can just unmute if anybody wants to speak. I know there's a couple of members of the public. Yeah, I think I can only unmute one person at a time. So maybe if there's a member of the public that would like to share a comment, you could think you have the option to raise your hand. And once you do that feature, I can allow you to speak. And there will be another opportunity later. So yeah, nobody's ready to jump in yet. That's totally fine. Okay, well, we can come back and then if you see a hand raised Marshall, just let us know. All right. Sure. Thanks, Nicole. So sorry, I jumped around on her. So just a reminder of the project team structure here we have a slide here that just introduces the role that the city of Burlington is the is the primary team member here and the RPC is a supporting member. And then the consultant team is made up of RSG and Desmond associates. And then some of the names that work for these representatives or the stakeholders we have Nicole here in person and then Brian Davis is out today but in instead we have Marshall Distal and then we have other members of the RPC. And then RSG has a number of supporting team members in the background and then today we have Amy Burns here supporting us. We've already introduced the members of the committee and as Nicole said, Kelly isn't here yet. She may join us. And then we know that Charlie has sent comments in advance and by email. So the committee role and responsibilities is that we have the committee as a city council direction to approve scuffs of work the methodology and the public engagement aspects of the parking management plan. We had a phase a scope of work that was agreed to last time and we have initial findings and some results that we're going to go through today. However, the key action for today is the phase B scope of work, which will be in engagement and collecting additional information from the general public and any other stakeholders along the corridor so that we can move forward with the methodology. And then the committee has the has the authority to make an official recommendation to the city council. As a as a hybrid committee and with the two members here. This is a really strong partnership so the city council should be well aware of what's happening. And then lastly, the committee will approve the final parking management plan. And then we'll also be going to the ward to three NPA and the city council for a final meeting to approve the plan. So we have a role and responsibilities and actions of the committee. The committee structure is a public body so we've worn the meeting we have Channel 17 in attendance so this is being recorded in broadcast is it broadcast live. Yes. And so we have to adhere to open meeting laws that we will not meet in person with the appropriate with X number of members of the committee to be a quorum. And that we follow all the established meeting rules. We've advertised the meeting as I said in all the meetings of materials will be available online if after this after this meeting is concluded. And then there is a link here to revise procedures to I think have one or two edits that figure Kirsten brought up last time. So those are available on that link that people can click on in the in the PDF. So moving forward. It is really always important before plans progress, we always have to come back to the goal. Why are we here. There was a significant undertaking in the corridor study that resulted in a recommended option to put bike lanes along the corridor. And as part of that there were impacts to those bike lanes being proposed. And so the parking management plan was identified as one of the key strategies in the implementation plan that needs to be determined and and and developed. So as directed by the city council, the parking management plan will identify practical strategies for balancing both the supply of parking and the demand side of parking. And we're focusing north of Pearl Street with the goal of meeting essential parking needs, but while freeing up roadway space to meet that recommended goal of putting bike lanes on that facility. We're going to be freeing up space for that purpose. And so the goal is finding what those strategies are. And that's really what the management plan is all about. We're going to achieve this goal by convening this committee. And we've identified using available data and tools, namely there is a model that we can use and rely on that's what the phase a work that we'll discuss today. And then the phase B is the development of how the management strategies then can affect both the demand for parking, and how that demand unfolds on the available supply that we have. And whether there's any other options out there for for changing both the demand and supply. And we're, we're going to achieve this goal by engaging with the community. So that's where the phase B is going to work really focuses on Marshall have we had any hands raised on the public comment. I see. Okay, great. Thank you. So the scope of work just a reminder I've said it a few times here is that the phase a was a technically focused initiative and we approve the scope of work and since then we've been doing a lot of work in the background and now we're here today to provide you some some data, some findings from it. And I think we know where we are and I think there's opportunities to to confirm whether the model and whether the work to date aligns with your impression of what's happening on the corridor. So we need to kind of stress test the model and stress test the results are. And then the phase B is the management strategy so we'll discuss the phase B after we go through the phase a results. Right so Nicole phase a existing conditions. I'm going to walk through a number of slides here I think we have about 15. Maybe 20 slides to walk through. Raise your hand interrupt me if there's something I'm saying that's confusing I want to make sure that we go through this. And I think it has been really. It's it's been good data that's coming to light and I think it will inform really this phase B work so I'm happy to where where we're ending up at this point in time. As the phase a scope of work said it's managing both supply and the demand of parking, we're going to be talking about both of those elements in the phase a so the first part of this is the supply side. And so the book and the source of these this data comes from both physical observations of on the ground court or counting parking spaces along when you ski Avenue. But it's also then because of property limitations and access rights we've been using aerial photos to estimate how much parking is happening in the back of those buildings so on private property. So we have an estimate of the total number of parking spaces that are both in garages and surface lots, as well as on street. And that's where we have an estimate of 1600 and 1618 parking spaces. All told we have 351 along on street parking spaces, 223 along north when you see itself. And those do. So we have a number of of handicapped parking spaces as well as one or two loading zones and so the the margin there might be eight spaces different and I want to be transparent about that forget whether the 223 has that number included or not. There's 128 parking spaces on side streets. The off street spaces and the balance of the 1253. So what we're using in the model is some degree of what spaces are restricted, meaning that the land use that it's on whether it's residential or commercial is saying this is our parking. Nobody else can park here. The majority of which is restricted because of the number of residential spaces particularly but even in many commercial spaces are also kind of restricted or not shared. So we have 1224 spaces are in that restricted category. And then we have a few off street spaces that are shared for more than one use. So for instance, the old spokes home and the phone on that area that parking lot is used for multiple uses. So there's a handful of uses that fall in that 229 category. And then the balance being mainly residential and a handful of commercial uses. On average across the corridor we have about 1.3 spaces per household unit. And that does vary by roadway segment along the corridor, as you'll see in some of the subsequent slides. That's a good question about the side streets is measured like one block. Yeah, great question. Thank you, Mark. So we have to find this study area. So we're trying to, at least initially say we want to try to meet the parking needs of the area shown in that orange polygon on the streets that are shown there and so the side streets are basically one block off of when you see the side streets. We know that some people might part further away. And the disadvantage from a technical approach is that you always have these boundary effects if you keep saying the study area goes one block beyond, then you're saying well people on that street are actually from the other street. And so you keep having this creeping effect is where do you actually found it. So by first defining a boundary we're saying we're going to see what we can do within here first. So if we really have difficulties or management plan strategies that need to involve other areas will be what we're going to have that conversation. So we need to at least go forward with what with with an attempt at first. So the steps are that we take that supply, and then we start looking at all the land uses in the model area, or excuse me in the study area and we turn it into a model, and we spent a lot of time the last call talking about that model. And I have just a couple steps here with just some screenshots to maybe illustrate it a little differently than the last time. We have to first use the data available to us and that comes from the shared parking manual, which is the national best practice for an estimate of how many spaces per unit of land use is typically built. So when you're building new land uses developers look to this manual and they say all right. On a national average, we need this many car parking spaces. Now that's typically done in a, in a variety of land use forms, and it's typically more of a suburban setting. And so this is kind of the high bar. This is where the parking demand is at an estimate of if you were developing outside of Burlington, you might use more of those names nose numbers right off. But it's the best source of data that we have to go by to at least initiate the process. Then the step two is that we're looking at all the land uses and we say, so this manual says X amount of parking for every land use. So what is what are the land uses we have. So fortunately for the city of Burlington and the Regional Planning Commission are both data rich agencies and Nicole and Brian Davis, and we, we've been querying Burlington electric data rental databases. We've been querying private data sets from done. I don't think it's called done in Brad streets anymore but guns. They provide a commercial data set for what land uses are in places all over the country and the Regional Planning Commission has purchased that data. So we have a very rich data set to estimate the square footage of every land use in the corridor, how many housing units are there, and we then turn that into the amount of parking demand. And we do that by that step three there's a computer script that we that we developed that said there's this many demand for parking for every household unit or for X amount of square feet of commercial space. We run it through an automated code that because there's so many land uses and so many little points as you can see in that step two. We then assign a demand for that parking and then we created a function that said, based on your location and how much parking you have nearby. You're more likely to park in this in your spaces that are on your property. And then if you have too much demand for your own property, where else are you going to go. And so there's a spatial awareness in the in the, in the model that says you're first going to fill up your own lot, then you might spill onto the street or to your adjacent lot that's open to you and that's why I went through those restrictions, because lots are open for you and some lots are not. And so we've created this model that results in that step four that we have an Excel data table that goes street by street roadway segment by roadway segment every parking lot in the study area has an estimate for how much parking car parking demand there is over. It's from 6am to 12 midnight. So we model every hour, and we model every month of the year because month of the year varies for parking depending on which land user if you're in. We don't have it but a mall for instance shows in December, maybe pre COVID and pre Amazon December was a high parking month for a for a mall. So that's why we had a month of the year. So for, sorry, first step three. I like I like that function idea is that the same with like every property it's like filling up first and go to the road that is that different. Every law is treated the same.  There's different functions there there is a, there's a distance function.  There's also a bit of a, we prioritize the lots that are bigger, have a higher attractiveness so that sometimes just that one little parking space next to a commercial is always empty right because you're you don't know if you could park there or not. Versus if it's a bigger lot it's more obvious that you can park there. So we've created this function with a little bit of our own, our own suggestions about, and there's there's coefficients that we can change in the model. And that's part of the next steps that's on the next slide is the calibration. And so there, but we try to be sensitive and try to understand that there's a lot of different decisions about where to park. I'll wait, I'll wait a little bit. Okay. All right. And Marshall you pipe up if there's if there are hands from other members in the language. Thank you. So we turn that data into a model and the step five, it didn't go into the depth that I just did talking about the calibration of those coefficients but we use the observe parking data to help us calibrate that. So we observe parking data in this corridor is better than other corridors that we have because we did the whole corridor study, but we have parking data only along the corridor itself. We don't have parking data for the off street lots we don't have parking data for some of the side streets. So we did our best to calibrate it based on the observed parking conditions on when you see Avenue. The step six also as part of the calibration though that we changed those initial. So kind of going back to the first step that those inputs coming from the shared parking manual. The step six says, if the shared parking manual says that we need two and a half parking spaces per residential unit. The step six said, we only have 1.3 on the corridor and we're getting by now. That gave us confidence to say we have to bring that value down. What also gave us confidence is that we've run this model in the city of Winooski for a project that's just preceded us, preceded this, and we found through a much more intense data collection process we literally did about 1000 observations parking in the city and we felt really comfortable that the 0.75 rate per household unit is a better number to use in this parking model. So you'll see from next slide here that I feel really comfortable in using that data that was originated from the city of Winooski and applying it here in this geography. So my question was right along those lines so we are using actual car ownership data from the old north end or you'll see two slides from now you'll see the actual data. Yeah, and then we hope to collect even more actual data in the survey in the phase B. Yeah, because I know there's, yeah, there's the obviously the observed data going out but then there's also like survey data from the census and stuff right of car ownership. So I'm just, I'm confused about the 0.75 per household that's 0.7 by parking spots per household. So the vehicle ownership could be slightly higher, but you have a probability that any vehicle anybody's not there on any given day. There's always a percentage of people who may own a vehicle but don't need parking on any given day. So there's kind of those, there's two, two values there is that there's an observed parking rate that will be lower than the vehicle ownership rate. And for that, for that first number of the observer, because you kind of bank on there's always a percentage of people who don't need parking for any given day. All right, so let's go to the next one so to, to counseling answer point there is that the vehicle ownership data is used to inform small in the study area or itself we have the highest number of households with zero vehicles to them in the county, right in the corridor. That's in the census track that's in the darker color there. And I think I have my mouse here I can just, I think we can all see it but it's that darker color. And then we have a portion there on the east that, and the boundaries or census tracks, every household, it's the best we can do. But 16% there just on the east, and then you have 14% there on kind of the north, Northwest. So that's the zero vehicle households. Then we can also have another data set that actually says the number of vehicles per household that have that have vehicles. And that number comes from other census data that's shown on the on the bottom right figure that shows generally in the census tracks we are between 1.3 1.4 to 1.6 vehicles per household that's what at least is in the state in the census data for ownership. So that's a really good data points, and that's, you say so what can we do with that now. Alright, the point is is that so Nicole go to the next slide. We, because we had so many observations in the city when you ski, we say, how does city when you ski compared to our study area, and it's very comfortable, frankly the city when you ski owns vehicles that are slightly higher rate than our study area. So 275 may actually still be slightly too high for our parking, our parking rates, but it's very close. So it's about 16% households with zero, zero vehicles in the city of Windows key but you can see this tracks are kind of big there. And there is definitely some localized activity within the city. So this gave me really good confidence that we're in the ballpark here and we've got a model that we're using, I think solid data. Jack, does that help you. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and we will talk about, we don't go into the survey questions yet because we haven't designed it, but it is our intention to ask a household. Do you have a vehicle, how many vehicles do you have, how many vehicles do you have to find parking for all those kind of questions. So zooming out on the next slide just gives you perspective that we are in a condition here that's unique relative to the county and this isn't even the whole county because you can imagine if you zoom out what the rest of the county looks like that there's, if you're outside of the county, you need to have a vehicle to get around. And so there is basically almost no household with zero vehicles outside of the Burlington and South Burlington area. And that's basically what the data on the left is showing you. And on the right, it just shows you the darker colors are the household with greater numbers of vehicle ownership, or higher number of vehicles per household. So it gives you again, a perspective to say that we are in a corridor we're developing a model that's very corridor specific, we're trying to account for corridor specific demographics and vehicle, vehicle ownership. Alright, so now there's a few tables. The visuals are nice. These tables, they will be or they will be available to you and they'll be on the website so you can go through every row and query every point but the red are the ones that I wanted to kind of flag to our attention today because there are other slides and we want to make sure we have good discussion. So basically, we say now, if we need to start talking about the demand side, because we've been talking about supply side and then now we said how many vehicles do we own. Alright, now how do we start translating that into into demand and supply equation. So we said first fundamentally what if we just talk about the people who live there. Alright, so households. This goes through the corridors that we have and so, Mario, you can see that we just have those side streets just one block east and west of the corridor. So I didn't give the boundaries I basically said north street west of when he was the other end of the street. So those are all the streets that we're studying. Then we have the number of housing units that we believe that are on those streets. And then in the second column it's that point 75 just a straight multiplier to say alright we think on average point 75 vehicles we need to find parking for on any given day on for these housing units. There are many estimated off street parking spaces there are by each block. So I've done all that that's in column C. And then we kind of said alright what's the demand for parking so what's the be compared to how many spaces they have and you can see in column D. There's a column there that has just that a division. And then what if we just say forget about the demand side what if we just say we need to, we need to find how many parking spaces per household. And that's where we go to the column F to be most simplistic we say that the the section of when you ski Avenue between the Grant Street and Pearl Street so the southern most area that we're involved in. That's the most constrained section for people who live on it. There are the, there's only 0.7 spaces per unit on that section. And across our corridor we're at 1.3 average. The other area that's tight is the northern most part of the section is the Riverside Avenue to Archwell. That's where we're also below that average we're at what we're at 0.9 spaces per household. So we have these two areas that are already identified just as tension just from a household point of view. And then we also have Grant Street being kind of raised up as one that has some tension for for on the residential side that there's basically below the corridor average on that section of Grant Street. Other than that, I think we're going to continue on the conversation unless there's a specific question, but there are streets that are above the average, and namely Decatur and Cromby that there are sufficient off street spaces there to meet the needs, at least based on the needs that we forecast. It's not to say that there's no parking issues there because there might be other people parking there but it may not may not be the residents themselves. This is also assuming that the residents is fill up their parking lots, and we know that a lot of parking lots are annoying to to use, particularly if you're in that tandem condition right you have to say you have to do the juggle and somebody forgot their keys. And now I can't move my car. So we understand that these is a simplistic representation. All right so Nicole next slide. So what if we say not only do we have to find parking for our people who live there now what if we have to find parking for people who work there. So we find now how many employees do we think are in this corridor. I forget what the sum is but the column a there has this has the estimated number of employees per segment that we have. We did call out the Community Health Center specifically because we're kind of there on the top end of the corridor they have a particular need. So we're going to jump over to to go through the columns of the number of employees, we say the number of housing units, then what if we sum them together we say we need to find parking for that column C, this is the number of people and the household units, then we compare the number of parking spaces again. This raises those to these two segments, particularly the Grant Street to Pearl Street segment again as being one of the most constrained parts of the corridor. We don't have, we don't have access parking for sure we don't have, we don't have a lot of parking to meet the people who work along that segment, as well as the people who live there. The Community Health Center particularly also they at this point in time, they have 76 spaces in their garage. They have on any given day around 140 people working there. There's a whole that of that only the lower lot which we think is somewhere around 36 or 40 spaces. That's the only one that can be used for employees. So that means you have about 100 other employees that are finding parking somewhere else in the, in the greater ecosystem. But that's assuming they are all driving. So this is again as a simplistic representation of these needs. Yeah. What are the businesses, businesses between Archibald and Union that has that value. We do know I forget. Yeah, well they're on. Well Archibald that's 294 North Winooski has a lot of employment and then even legal aid has a lot of employment. There's the the spot on the West that Children's Center. Yeah, so there's a lot of, yeah, that's why that that one has a lot of employment. Alright, Nicole next slide. We're done with simplicity. Now we're saying it's still simplistic because we have these parking rates that have been initially calibrated to the local condition. And we now not only say it's just houses and employees and we made we now say there's visitors, there's shoppers there's guests to your house that's actually a category in the parking model you have your owner and a guest, and they have different parking rates. So we turn all those into a an estimate of how many cars do you expect to park based on your land use on any given average day and these numbers are actually all weekdays I apologize for that, for that lack of communication so these are weekday averages. And what we have here are the two, I see another error, but I see these, we have a commercial and a residential section here, because they generate parking at different rates. So first the commercial one is that we have converted the employees into square footage we knew both the employees and the square footage and the square footage is what the parking model uses. And different, different businesses generate parking at different rates, depending on whether it's a market or whether it's an office, whether it's a medical center. So there's about 40 different land use codes that we have to attribute every business to. So that's kind of what happened in the background during this phase a work. We have tried to summarize it. And then we have an aggregate form for communicating this is that we have these commercial businesses, we have this many total square fee in that first column. And then we have the estimate of parking demand at these different time periods, 8am, 2pm and 6pm. And then I've, we've converted simply that average parking rate of how many cars per square footage because that's the unit that we use. So we have 8am you can see there there's kind of an average 1.1 cars per 1000 square feet for the commercial uses at 8am. And that because most people aren't fully at work yet. And there's no shopping typically or there's no office spaces or certain land uses are busy at different times of the day at 2pm is the peak for commercial uses that's why we chose 2pm to show here. 2.4 vehicles on average for every 1000 square feet in commercial space. And certain segments have busier segments than others and that's what's shown there. I forget whether I think we excluded the health center specifically didn't want to isolate them so much here but we do have that identified in other in other aspects. The 6pm rate it starts going down again we're at 1.7. And so it's simply the on the bottom table is the is the residential version of that. So I noticed in the first column there it should or the second column it should be size that's household units. And then the parking demand is vehicles per household unit across those various times of the day. So you get closer to the 6pm and then if we showed 11pm, you'd start seeing that 0.75 rate show up because during the middle of the day, again pre COVID, there was a lot more people still working outside but still it showed on average at 2pm people are still parking the 0.5 vehicles per household on average. And that's that's been basically, we're going to we're going to show you how that compares to some observations in just a minute. On an aggregate level and we've been focusing on the weekday right now, the weekend does represent a different conversation. And how do we deal with that but the weekday on the street through the corridor study we found that is about 69% occupied. So the spaces on the street about 69% of them were occupied across the average weekday, and that was across several time periods during the day. Certain time periods were busier some for some periods were less but it was kind of the middle of the day that the one to three was what we focused on when we did the corridor study because that was the peak period of occupancy. So that 69 was was meant to capture the average occupancy along the whole corridor at the generalized weekday peak. And so we found 69%. We've got the parking model working at 68% to represent that so we're happy at an aggregate level that the parking model is doing the right thing capturing the land uses across all the segments of the corridor. And so we're going to go quarter we're going to go segment by segment here. So Riverside to Archwald. What you see here on the left are those restrictions that we discussed earlier. So to quickly orient you because these maps are going to show the same in each of the segments. The map on the left shows that we have the on street parking. It's shared with anybody. You have definitely some limitations we have some time limitations as part of this quarter but just that in a second. So green which is reserved for specific land use sometimes is residential sometimes it's commercial. Then you kind of have this fuchsia color that would be non residential and shared with more than one use. So that's where we've kind of classify these uses as such. Each of those green dots represent a spot with parking. So this is just on the land use but that creates a lot more mess on it so this is just on the parking supply side just to visualize it. And so we kind of some bullet points here for highlights is that the on streets already managed we have one hour and two hour zones that really prohibits residential demand anyway. And we knew from earlier that this is a constrained household demand. It's either a residential area or there's just a lower vehicle ownership rate in this area. It's either attracted people to live here with fewer cars or they're finding parking. The health center demand is something that was already identified but it's something that I am sensitive to and we're going to have to find solutions or at least be aware of how they're treated that they 140 employees, not all employees take a car. There are only 76 parking spaces and that parking spaces is meant to capture not only or serve not only employees but also all visitors clients to the health center. We also expect that many clients don't drive to the health center. So hopefully the survey in the face be can really be an important tool here to get a better idea about the health centers travel demands and understand how much parking are they actually causing on the on the area. And how we might manage help them it better manage their demand, because they seem to be the largest imbalance in the corridor between demand and supply of parking. Generally the observations, the model and the physical observations really are correlate here we're about 80 to 90 and upwards of the occupancy throughout the core parts of the day. And anecdotally again, that's really, that's really, I think, supported. We have about 40 other jobs, meaning persons employed in this corridor other than the health center as well. And you can see it was kind of fuchsia dots where most of the employment occurs. So moving further south we started introducing this is the heavy employment sector. And we also see that for the residents that are abutting this segment, they have actually a greater number of off street parking spaces than the corridor average. And so we don't see probably a lot of the demand on the street arising from the residential side. We see really it's probably the commercial and the visitors and the like. And so we see that there's a high employment over 130 people. There's 128 spaces for non residential uses. We see the occupancy, the model and observations are quite similar in this segment, we have about 70 to 80% occupancy during the peak times of the day. We think that there there's there's aspects of that that's the on street off street, only about 50% of the parking spaces are occupied. We have some we have an opportunity here that's kind of in that brackets on that second last bullet point that we have some opportunities here if, if we can encourage greater sharing of some of the available parking spaces, we might actually this might be an opportunity for us on the corridor. So that's kind of a nice, we're flagging those now. We realize that the residential street off street are only 40% occupied at the peak when the commercial off street is 90% full. We know though, because of residential uses you don't want to have commercial people parking in your yard so that's it's just kind of reporting about fact. Also reporting here archibald indicator archival is more of a constraint you might remember one of the other earlier tables that archival was kind of flagged as having a little bit more occupancy, or a strain, if you were parking spaces per household on archival, and it's heavily residential. So there's going to be more demand for the on street uses the Decatur. That's only that's less than 50% occupied during the middle of the day at 1.6 spaces per household. The model is is is estimating right now. And then we do see because I mentioned we have all the times of the day modeled. It's logical and I'm just glad I'm just reiterating what the model shows is that the parking occupancy so the amount of cars parked on the streets, declines as other commercial spaces open up on Winooski Avenue so there's clearly some sharing that's happening during later parts of the day. So when when people are not at work. There are some options for people to park. Now moving down into the really residential section here is that we have the average weekday observations about 55% occupied of on street that the model is basically spot on in that in that area as well. We see that it is slightly more parking spaces off street than the corridor average so this is a little bit higher again you have some bigger lots behind the houses here to serve more parking spaces. There's only about 15 jobs in the corridor. Those jobs, admittedly, they don't have a lot of parking on site so they they're they're parking somewhere, and they're probably parking on Cromby, or going up to Decatur. Cromby does have about 1.5 spaces per household. And so probably during the middle of the day when there's employment, those are filling up the spaces on Cromby because there's probably plenty of parking to meet the residential needs. And then you can see what we say is that on Cromby it's increasing about 70% are in the evenings. And again, because of the parking lot design on Cromby there's a lot of narrow driveways. So it's probably a symptom again of those tandems and people saying I'd rather park on the street it's just easy enough. North Street is about 60% occupied at 2pm. And again, anecdotal my own observations is that that kind of seemed to make sense to me, but Kirsten were you going to ask a question or no, you're all right. Okay, good. Okay, keep going. Going down here. North Street to Grant Street, again, big residential section. And this is the one mismatch between the model and what is observed. You can almost you can already see it at this at this scale there's a big parking lots behind a lot of these units there's a greater number of parking spaces it's about 1.5 on average so it's not huge, but about 1.5 average off street spaces per household unit. So it's bigger it's greater than the corridor average. But what the model suggests is that we're only about 40% occupied during the peak. But yet our observations suggest it's nearly double that. And so the question is, why, and two likely reasons one imprint here is that we think because of the management strategy to the south of meters. It's, it's forcing people to go find the free parking. And that means that people in downtown are walking further distances which is, which is fine, but it's creating an artificial demand, or basically a demand that's not, that's not arising because of the local land use on this segment. So this is the one flag that it was an aha, and it was good because it aligned with the anecdotes that came to the corridor study that people living there said, these aren't my cars. And so who's parking here. So I'm happy that the model is reinforcing them. The other, the other, maybe a chance is that down on another section that we're just talked to and also Grant Street. As we get closer to the downtown there's fewer off street parking spaces per household unit. And so it could be some people who live on Grant Street or on the section south. They're, they're driving to the next block north, instead of parking right in front of their house, they're doing the block north. So that could also be it but but the model has attempted to capture that so I think that effect is pretty limited, because the model accounts for people walking 600 feet and that's not more than 600 feet. So I think it's more of the metering, the parking meter effect. So those last section as I said is the most is the second most dense residential part of 95 housing units, but it has the fewest point 66 average of off street spaces per unit. So this is the most constrained area. We're going to have the most difficulty finding parking for the for the demand that probably exists here. So we're seeing that we have basically for the demand that we think exists. We're saying the rest of the corridor would on average provide more than, more than double the amount of parking that we're providing here. So it's under parked by about 50%.  And so that's also further exacerbating their options so the residential needs are parking probably on Grant Street and that's why the for everyone's benefit here this part of Grant Street is only residential permit only. So, only addresses that have a Grant Street address can park there. So that's a bit of protecting that backyard when, when there's demand that's, that's here that's probably not being met. So, we don't know where they're going really. I have a question. The parking garage downtown closest to this. On south. Is that within 600 feet of these businesses on. Yeah, it's a good question. Can you state your name just for the notes. Hey, hey, John, can you repeat that question I getting a question that is hard to hear from folks. Yeah, basically how far away is the, is the parking, the market street parking garage on south bonus key avenue from probably like the radio bean and those businesses on the southeast. I don't know. I think it's probably around 600 feet. We haven't we haven't modeled that model that right. That's where I forget if you were in the room when I described the boundary conditions, if we model that garage then we're modeling the whole downtown area of Burlington and you can think about the complexity of what I've just introduced. Now how many hundreds of businesses and staff and where people go. We could do it, but it would take a lot more effort. So anyway, I think the model said that we'd be basically the model suggests occupancy 100% and because of the model doesn't explicitly account for the meters. And so it's saying people can park there, but in reality people can't park there because the meter so that's why there's only about 80% occupancy. So they're going somewhere else. So I think we need to kind of tweak this one a little bit to get the model modeling reality a little bit better. And what it's going to probably do is force more cars onto cancer. I just say that I having I used to frequent a business here and there's this dynamic where you go you go around the block you go all the way around the block so I wonder if that is a human nature segment north to grant as people like saying, well, am I going to take this open spot or am I going to right because you have to go all the way. And I'm having to go into the traffic that is at that intersection of Pearl. I'm wondering if there's a human nature element to in terms of taking the first available right to chance it. But it does boil down to because of the meters and maybe the demand for parking there, but forcing people to go further away. Yeah. Yeah, human nature is difficult to to model, particularly in a simple model. I was one of those car on the other side. Okay. So we're we're just about done with this phase a really appreciate everyone's patience as we've dove in deep here. So here's a question for you. And I didn't ask this question for the for the Winooski Avenue segments but particularly the side streets because the Winooski Avenue segment we've had observations. And we feel good that the observations are basically aligning with the model in the majority of the cases. However, on the side streets as I said, we don't have observational data. We've only we've calibrated this model along Winooski Avenue we're hoping that the side streets are are being correctly captured because of the calibration that's happened on the main line. So the question is for everybody and for the public in the survey we're going to get more responses but how do these values and as a transportation planner, I sometimes find it hard to say is a 60% is a 75%. I really apologies in advance, but we want to I want to ask whether we feel that these numbers are in the ballpark of reality at these times of day so we have 8am 1pm 6pm across these side streets, and to say do we think that the model is capturing it right or are these side streets busier than that and then we have to kind of do some do some other model tweaking.  So if anybody has any questions you can go ahead and raise your hand and I'll allow you to speak, or you can simply type type your question in the chat box. And Kirsten I saw you had unmuted if you want to go first. Yeah, I just wanted to compliment you on the presentation it's very interesting and I, I'm glad you've gone into the level of detail, you have, and I think it will be helpful and I think it's a, it seems like a really good starting place. Thank you. Marshall any comments in the chat or as a question you're seeing. I'm going to raise my hand raised from Jane Nodell. I'm going to try and allow Jane to speak here. All right Jane you should be able to unmute yourself and speak. Okay you hear me. Yes. Yeah, great yeah I agree a lot was very impressive analysis. I just wanted to make sure that in the, the estimates of demand that you did include demand from patrons of the businesses.  But on slide 21, there is the commercial table, and that's, and all the land uses were combined for the purposes of communicating it for this table. We have an estimate of every business that there's a there's a separate parking rate for the number of employees, and then there's a separate parking rate for the visitors or patrons of the business. And so we have accounted for that. Okay, thank you. And then how about people visiting residents. So the residential side has two parking rates as well one is the owners, and one is called guests. Okay, great. Thank you very much. Yeah. Okay, well thanks everybody. Obviously after we get through our business here, I'm happy to take any more questions as well. But so now we're moving into that was the phase a which really informed where we are that relationship between supply and demand we understood where there is a tension, and where there might be opportunities, as well as some difficulties for finding management strategies. So the phase B scope of work really focuses on the step of additional public engagement to start identifying. How are we going to prioritize and identify what strategies are going to work best for the community. We do have a pretty tight timeline, and we've also appreciated that we've done a lot of engagement in the corridor study so I while we have different audiences that need different levels of engagement in different ways, we have language barriers we have access barriers of coming to public meetings etc. So being sensitive to that, one of the most efficient ways to get a large number of people responding is a web survey. So we're going to pivot really with the web survey being the focus of this public engagement, but then do public or focused engagement to supplement it. I'm going to go, Nicole and I will have a little bit more conversation there in just a second. So the web survey will be designed in English on the internet. And what we're going to propose is that two members of this committee the identify to help us develop that survey. We have a survey that we're going to, I guess use as the backbone to it, which was developed for when you see city, but we have very different questions here so. And just for your own transparency that got about 450 responses and it's really helpful to again, compare particularly vehicle ownership, and how many cars are people parking. So we compared it to the census data, and it just gave us that gave us that other understanding and we could also get survey responses if people are willing to do it. Give us where they live and where they work and so we had really geographic rich data as well, but that comes down to a willingness to share that level of data and trust. So why I want to bring that up to your attention is that you all are the stakeholders that need to advocate to say please participate in this survey. If you want to get your needs heard. And that goes for understanding what are your parking needs as a as a community member as a resident as a visitor as a shopper, and we're going to break it down to say why do you park here, do you live do you work do you visit. So we're trying to really get a handle of these various needs. And so the survey is going to be really that focus point. And Nicole me can you speak a little bit about the interventions that we really are going to do to get people aware of the survey. Sure, so what we're proposing is postcards, really to target everyone who lives works visits the corridor so we'll directly distribute the survey notice on these postcards to the businesses and the nonprofits along north when he will mail postcards to everybody who has an address in the study area, including property owners on people who live there get business owners. We can use additional lawn signs to capture people who maybe are just walking by. So they know they can take the survey will do a citywide front porch forum our social media posts. And again really trying to target people who made us be passing through, but still need to know about the survey. So on the postcards themselves. We are planning to provide some information about translation options and and or interpretation services. And then we'll have paper copies available for anyone who needs that assistance walking through the survey, and we'll have the translated versions and that other assistance available as well. So that's our, our strategy for how we'll get the survey out there and how we'll try to reach as many people as possible. And maybe I'll pause here before we jump into the next bit. It's great sense of it but can we get like you are. Yes, definitely. Yeah, we have used QR codes on some of our other similar surveys and science and yeah it's worked really well. So we definitely do that here. So you hear that question, I just interested about volume. So I can say that again. I was interested whether you heard Jane on the question. All right now. Yes, she just said was hard to hear. Yeah, we're going to put QR codes on the mailing postcards and letters so that people may get easier access to the web survey. And in particular in the lawn sign so yeah as people are walking by they can snap it and go. All right we can come back to this and oh yeah. Yeah I was just going to say so both in terms of the survey itself. It sounds like that'll be further developed. But maybe you can answer that the survey itself but also the way it's advertised. Will it be clear that this is not just for like people who drive. There's a lot of folks and want to make sure that like they know that this is something relevant to them. Yeah that's a good point yeah we it is intended to be used by anybody who's visiting the corridor. But yeah we can make sure that the language is not just parking focused. Right, because if it is I think a lot of people who don't drive will not take it if they think it's about parking they'll be like this isn't relevant to me. I think then will mean to think through what what's the good title that's a good tagline to get people to take this. And part of it particularly like let's say the Community Health Center. Let's say people take the bus to get to the Community Health Center we want those people to take the survey. So we need to find a way to entice them to take it. And I think that's a struggle, always to try to find what is the right messaging and the short little one liner in the front porch forum what gets them figures graph. We do market research we're not marketing experts so that's the problem. I think just simple you know using language of transportation rather than language of parking so that it's a broader understanding. I'm also wondering if depending on, you know, it's the middle of the summer I know that that's the time period you're going to be surveying I'm wondering if you don't get the response rate and you sort of are sensing that the response rate is low we sort of amplify the survey through direct canvassing or through to some other means, you know, maybe by sanitizing the buses and other things like that, you know, on those, you know, on those routes. We've, we've been just fielding a survey in central Vermont during the last three weeks, which summertime. So we do have to do some extra encouragement to get the responses but we ended up getting 700 responses from a from a pretty widely dispersed so I'm hoping that people check their emails but yeah but again physical presence and people going away and we still have, we are still under a pandemic. We're acknowledging that we'll be monitoring that so every, we could do real time checking Nicole and I can say alright it's only 30 people it's 100 people we can report and identify a strategy. Something novel like a long sign in a non campaign season might actually. Oh, sorry. I was wondering you might address this but what's the time. So yeah that question for me that didn't catch it was just with the timeline but we will we will get to that one. I didn't answer yet because it's tight. Yeah. Yeah, I just, before we fully leave this sort of this page on the, how are we going to connect people to the survey. So we have businesses and nonprofits but are, and I know you're offering translation services but we are we also going to places where you might find. Like, I think about how are we connecting with seniors how might we connect with people with children, because it's often more difficult and or new immigrants who, even if you just offer translation services. They may not understand why they may want to participate in this, you know it may need them. But just a little bit more direct, like, I guess engagement or thoughtfulness around that, maybe you've already thought of all that but. Yeah, it's a good question. We definitely don't have all the answers yet but yes we have thought of some of that for in particular trying to reach new immigrants new Americans we did reach out to the city's trusted voices program, which is relatively new but it's in the studio office, they are taking July off so we're going to catch them a little late in the process but we checked in with them several months ago to kind of give them a heads up that this would be coming and they've offered to try to give us some guidance basically on how to reach their communities. And that might take a slightly different approach for getting the survey out. Yeah, I'm also sensitive to that point that the, the language that we use isn't as easy to follow and just a strictly translated sense that it may take a different approach. Yeah, that would be good. I would say maybe you know to some at the family room, you have, you know, across a cross section of folks, and they have programs and so sometimes that's an opportunity to talk to them about what you're trying to achieve. And then, you know, see about providing the survey and that sort of in that format. Yeah, yeah, that's a great idea they were also on our list but that's a good reminder and in that same building the day programs for seniors with different activities so yeah that that facility between the family room and all the other groups that use that that will be a really key building to catch people who live in the area, but the divisive there. In the detailed scope of work which we do have as a PDF on the screen but we were doing a concise version in the PowerPoint. But in that scope of work we did say that there are particular organizations and agencies that represent the stakeholders so rather than convene a public forum and invite people in which we know has its own limitations as I've already said access and coverage and other things so we're going to really work to engage the organizations that engage others and work through that process. So we've the list of agencies and organizations. All years, let's let's get that list and that's where we're prepared to call them up and say do you know about the survey. Can you do us a favor and find a way to distribute it do you have any questions about it happy to try to do that so that's it that's in our detailed scope of work to do that level of engagement. But yeah any groups that you see missing from that definitely send it our way. We. It's one of the reasons that this kind of conversation is so important because we don't always have all the answers we don't know all of the groups out there so yeah any feedback feel free to send it along if you think of anything else after tonight. I have a comment from Ellen O'Brien mentioning how reading level makes a big difference if you want engagement. Yeah, thank you. I become more cognizant of that. That's not a good word to use for that. Thank you. Thanks, Marshall. Ellen or Alan. Ellen, yes. Yeah, Alan, thank you. All right, so next I would add, you know, we'd have to go light on the jargon. Yeah. I really. I rely on on all of you also to help do that. So the, the last steps of the phase B, and we're going to use the survey in addition to the corridor study, because the corridor study had a lot of evaluation criteria but they were more physical elements for you expanding green space square footage of impervious surface traffic volumes. So what we're going to be looking at this to start getting a more nuanced approach to evaluation is to say who's affected by these changes. So rather than what is affected. And we're going to be trying, again, reinforce that while they're optional questions, the last part of the survey which is related to economic or endemographic data. That's really important for us to get a handle of who is affected by these changes. And we have already the equity office providing us data that's census driven. We have a good, we have a census, good understanding about who lives there, and what are the racial characteristics what an income characteristics how far people working if they live there. And that's only a start and we know RSG knows, because we work with this date all the time there's limitations to the census data, and so this is an on the ground way to get more clear data. So if we can encourage people to answer these demographic questions we're going to have a better awareness to say this segment that we're going to be managing parking in a new way, they're particularly effective and how is that from an equity lens right now. How is it from other other perspectives. So that's where the evaluation criteria is going to be driven by who's taken the survey. We're going to be asking some questions to what do they feel is important is is pricing is available parking within a certain place is really valuable. We're going to be asking about safety perceptions. Do you need parking because you feel unsafe in the corridor, do you feel unsafe getting home from work, you know, given what I know the street the downtown marketplace just talk about this escort program so it was timely to think about asking these questions in new ways so I think that's the goal of the survey to start getting a handle. And I know Kirsten you had posed a question, what are they, what are these evaluation criteria, and I think right now it's a little bit premature to know. Until we get some of the feedback from the survey to say these are the hot light hot button items for me. That's the goal, and we're going to distill that once the survey has been complete. Then we're also going to use the survey because we're going to be asking data about their parking needs and the mode traveled needs to then kind of tweak the parking model again if we need to if we've. The parking model did really well on the calibration on a segment by segment already so I don't. I'm not anticipating a lot of tweaks to be needed, but if the survey data really says something different I'm going to have we're going to have to come back and look at things. So there's an opportunity to revisit that parking model a little bit. But it's really going to be coming down to the strategies and so the survey is going to tell us what strategies people are interested in seeing what people strategies people are willing to to have in front of them parking permits for residents. So how are there meters in certain streets, we now have seen the effects of meters right it's going to push parking other places so we have. We can ask a question with a logic to say if you put a parking meter, should we make it residential allowable after a certain time period, or maybe it's residential permits and meters. So people can still park at a metered spot, but just guests can't or something like that you know there's a lot of a lot of permutations to here. And so the survey is going to ask some questions to try to get a handle on what kind of strategies people are interested in. After the series complete, we're going to bring it all together and analyze it. And we're going to do that within a very short time frame. So the next slide there, Nicole. We're designing the survey next week. And we're then going to field it shortly thereafter. And we're going to give those solid three weeks to field three weeks for survey is typically acceptable. That's not a rushed field. It's a it's a normal field. But the development of the survey I know there's already been some comments about getting feedback on the survey. So a real quick discussion there. What what we've talked about on the project team and for your feedback is that the survey process is that the project team has already initiated some framework of a survey. We've already just I've just described you some of the key questions that we want to put into there. We're going to get two members of the steering committee or this committee to dive deep next week and to talk about the survey go through all the questions. And we're going to ask those two members to engage the rest of you on the committee. So kind of a one on one engagement. And so that's the way we're going to get the rest of the committee to buy in on the survey design. We're not going to be able to get another meeting together in the next week. So rather it's going to be incumbent on as a as a committee member. Asking you to say can you call one other committee member and say this is what the survey looks like what do you have for feedback. And then then that person brings it back to Nicole and I and Brian. And we'll be continuing to iterate that survey every day for the next week. Yeah, and I'll just clarify we did we did add an extra week on there. Yeah, our intent is to have the first draft available for review next week and then refine it over the following week so then we can get it mailed out pretty quickly after. And also, you know, we, we know that it can be unwieldy to wordsmith a survey with 10 people, which is why we thought just getting a couple of representatives would really help move this along. So yeah, if there are two people who can kind of be our direct points of contact that additional outreach with anybody else on that committee is really just if people are that interested in seeing the level of detail in the survey. So yeah we're trying to find that balance of getting the survey out there, but also making sure that everyone here is comfortable with what we're putting out. So we will have a live test survey link available during that iteration phase. So any of the steering, any of the committee members can see the progress anytime they want and provide feedback. So I hope to be the goal is to be as transparent and move as fast as possible. So it's a tough balance. So moving into the further steps here is that we'll then have a committee meeting the week of September 9 so we don't have to say that's the date but the week of that some day during that week. We will meet after we have basically two weeks or we can have to analyze will probably download survey data midway through to start getting a feeling for what's happening with the data will look at the parking model as well. And then we'll be meeting to show what are the results of the survey, what are some draft criteria and analysis and some of the preliminary parking management options and strategies that were coming out of the survey. Then we're going to get your feedback from that meeting and come back on the 23rd with the goal of having something that you can accept. And the reason why all this is happening so fast is that there is a paving project that the state of Vermont has for the Windows key Avenue corridor, where they need confidence to say do they need any restriping or curb movement in those designs and they need those designs this they need confidence from the city in that October month or so. And that's why we need to act to inform that process. If the city is going to affect change, you know, these V trans paving and road projects only come across every once every 10 years or something. So this is a way the city has a very cost effective way to get some changes on the ground quickly. That's what's driving this schedule. I'm sorry, it's sometimes sometimes when your head turns, you sort of fade out. Can you get that. I apologize. How far back. Just the going for October November because there's a funding source that will pay for potentially moving curve and we're striping. I don't know all the details but V trans is coming through with their class one paving project. And because it's root seven debt slash two. Right. So we have to get in on that train. If we want to, if we want to capture it. Okay. I understand now thank you. And I see there's a q amp a mark you also that was my question if because it's root seven and to stay private right. I can't see the q amp a. Yeah, so there's a pretty, pretty detailed question here from. Sorry if I pronounced the strong soul soul big old over be. I'll just I'll just read the question. In the survey process it'd be helpful to know if the residents who have cars need to use them daily, whether to commute to work drop children at school or daycare, etc. In parking studies done during the development of Burlington's residential parking management program. It was determined that 25% of cars parked on streets with very limited parking were not moved for days. These folks might bike or walk in town so only need their car occasionally. If there was an option for convenient satellite parking this could reduce some of the on street vehicle storage that ties up parking spaces needed by folks who must park near their residents, because they must use their car daily. The satellite parking should be made attractive and creative ways with efficient transportation on a bus line Uber taxi credits, etc. to parking covered by solar panels to keep snows off making appealing in the winter, better than digging the car out for snow parking bands. I think that's a great strategy. That's the exact kind of ideas that we want to hear in the survey and collect and actually in the in the spirit of what the plan is meant to capture is to come up with these strategies and for us to identify the applicability of the strategy the timing of the strategy whether it's a short medium and long term solution. And basically, it won't be an implementation plan of the strategy but it will at least say, here's a pathway toward achieving that if we, if we deem it a high priority. So that's a perfect example of how we see the process unfolded. Do. So just thinking back to the parking model so the parking model you developed like for the businesses you just use the standard data that's available in the, in the various guides you spoke about right. Do, do you think that it is useful to sort of ground truth that to improve on the model to see if that's accurate or different with the local businesses. But reducing the commercial parking rates substantially as well. And so the city of Burlington we think is about 50% of that national parking average for the commercial land uses, and that's where to get that calibration we adjusted those rates so the residential had a really conservation data set in the city when you ski and we had the vehicle ownership really comparable for the commercial side we don't have that. We don't have as rich of a data set and frankly coven has thrown that for a loop. So, I would, the way that we proceeded thus far is that we've adjusted that national parking rate to results in a parking model that seems to fit observational data. I agree with that. A question is those and those observations are pre coven. So I felt pretty good about that. I think anyone's guests at this point in time to understand how the commercial parking rates are going to change six months and a year from now. So we've done our best out of status at a point in time that was basically pre coven. We've said this represents that that condition. I would be all ears to your sin if you feel that certain businesses should be observed over the next month and you and if that if you think that's representative of the longer term trend. I think a couple of observations would be reasonable, and we could kind of fact check straight face test the model, so to speak. I mean, it may make sense. I'm not sure which ones make I mean I think like feeding Chittenden has like sort of to me that's a in my mind I don't really know what the parking demand is or is it moving, you know, is there a lot of turnover but I don't want to hamper their ability to continue to serve the community yet I really don't or any of the businesses or nonprofits along the street because they're important parts of the community. There's a lot of people. So, I guess, I don't know if others think there's specific places to observe but I guess I was thinking more. Is there like just a simple, not a very extensive survey but what are the things that you ask like how many employees do you have what are you know what are the businesses impression of what they have and whether that sampling like that would just make sure we did the right thing with the model and how we calibrated it. There will be. So there's a whole tier or logic structure in the model is that you could take this in the survey, you can take the survey and you can click multiple buttons I live in the corridor I work in the business in the corridor so somebody would then be asked three different sets, it would look as one solids survey, but there's a logic and so we will have business owners again if we can get it in their hands. Okay, a business owner and so I'm saying all non non residential business. That's what I've said right here so if it's a non residential use you'll be asked how many people do you have working with you. Do you, how many parking spaces do you have on site. How many cars do you typically park there. I like, I like soul suggestion of the frequency question so that's a nuance. I didn't understand the survey is going to work that way that's wonderful I think that allows people to answer from their perspective as a business owner potentially and to get us that data and then also it's like sort of choose your own ending. Yeah, so you can you can slice the data but and you get out of it you can say residential people think this business owners think this and you get those different data points. That's great. Thank you for clarifying that that's, that's good. I would think I can't think off the top of my head what businesses, this would be but I think the ones where the data might be a lot different than it was pre COVID is the ones that have that allow for remote work, because there is going to be that. There's going to be a lot more people working from home now and into the future than they were direct COVID so I can't think off the top of my head, but there might be a couple of businesses like that that we would want to revisit either through the survey or by going. And we can ask a specific question about teleworking. We didn't going back in people's memory to say what did you how many cars did you park pre COVID is pretty risky, because people perceive things totally different but we can ask, what are you doing today what do you feel like doing in the future that's also risky but, but I think from my own reading there's probably not a ton that could do a lot of teleworking, but you know legal aid frankly was one of the ones that was identified as a huge parking demand, and a very very small footprint of parking. They might be remote. So they're, you know there's interesting. Opportunity. You don't want to tailor a solution to the specific businesses that are there. So we don't want to run that risk to say here's a management strategy that fits because legal aid is there because what if legal aid moves next year, we still want something that works. So, I mean, I always hesitate saying let's really focus on what's there but if we can if we can have some comfort about alright there's about 20% of the population that work there that might be teleworking that might reduce some parking. And is this the last slide or we still the next slides is really about the actions we're going to have another public comment period. And then we need to take notes on the phase B scope as well as identify the two members for the commit for the survey. Okay, I just have a comment on this side. Other comments maybe later but with the timeline. It makes me a little bit nervous if we're saying the state is needing it by October November and this timeline is already up against that to the point where there's any delay or we would potentially miss that and this is a project that's already been delayed a lot so can you guys speak to that The delay on it would have been nice to come to you guys a month earlier with some of the parking data. That's a technical problem that are she had. So we own that and The truth being that we had to redesign the parking model because it used to take five and a half hours to run. And that was just unacceptable. We couldn't get it to calibrate because we had to run it hundreds of times to get where it was today. So we took more time there but also the land uses were very challenging to try to get the square footage and the land uses right so we consume more time so RSG owns owns that delay and There's no excuse for that other than it's taken more time than we wanted. So that has pushed this whole thing a bit more toward its timeline than I wanted and we knew going into this that there was an expectation around that October. I thought it wasn't also as hard as maybe it now is. So the October timeframe I think is harder than we realize going in. And I think I'm, I guess, I am hopeful that at least by that time, we will know if there seems to be general consensus and we're headed in a particular direction, or if it is still very much up in the air and at that point we just have to tell the state we're going to need more time and it may mean that the city has to go back and do our own project after paving. It may mean that nothing could happen on the corridor it just we may miss the opportunity to coordinate. So yeah, it's a tight schedule but you know the state doesn't need us to present the final plan that's approved by the Commission so again like if we can get to a point where we can give them enough information as a starting point that's really what they're looking for for now not every level of detail with what exactly is going to go into plans. So going back to the goal. The goal was stated that and Kirsten I saw an email that came through and I'm sensitive to the wording so we're not going into this with a, with a predicted outcome in terms of terms of a plan, but there is an outcome that was agreed to by the city council which is to put bike lanes in. So that means in some locations we're moving on street parking. So that is an outcome of this plan. The, the plan is all about mitigating the impacts of that in the most fair and equitable use that term because we will be doing equity analysis. So it's all about the management. At that September 23 meeting it's a vote of confidence that the management strategy is going to be acceptable to the city council. That's, that's my interpretation of what's happening, because the physical works on the ground. If we were the very least cost option. It's just repaving and restriping, but there are opportunities for curb bump outs at certain locations for loading zones, or handicap accessible spaces. There are opportunities in the corridor to do some localized physical works. And that's where VTrans really needs to know where those are because that affects stormwater design and other design implications. So in terms of where we are and that September 23. I think we can get there. Okay, yeah I guess my two questions are follow up on that it's just like one I agree with you, the council resolution had this going on the ground this year, in terms of the bike lanes and in terms of the changes to North Manusia that laid out in that resolution. The idea was let's make sure we have a plan, a plan in place to manage parking. You know, before we put this in, but it was never meant to sort of the management plan wasn't meant to delay implementation. And I'm just this, it concerns me. Is there any way to like in any way compress or shrink this so that there is a little bit of buffer or something like that because I feel like we're in a situation where if anyone drops any ball. There could be big consequences and is there any way to try to build in a little bit more wiggle room. I know that it's already kind of tight. I guess we don't have. We have a week. I know Kirsten you're behind the week of the 23rd. I guess Nicole we should go to V trans also and understand what they need. Exactly what day. If we, if we can still meet the 23rd and whether it's another meeting immediately thereafter and we try to schedule it. You know, after the conclusion of this meeting we get on doodle and set up our meetings. So that might be an opportunity. In terms of the between the week of the ninth and the week of the 23rd. I expect to be again as transparent with the committee as possible and anything iterative and draft that you're willing to review and provide comment on. Let's do it. That's one pathway. Maybe what I would throw out. Sorry. I'll stop in a second but I know I know I was waiting but maybe one thing I would throw out is the NBA meeting. I think is for the old North and the third Thursday. So maybe going to the NPA in September instead of going to the October. The NPA schedule was also driven by the council resolution where the committee needed to have a draft that we're presenting to the NPA. So I think we just have to keep that in mind that we'll have to plan time for the committee to review that before we're scheduling the NPA. Right. So if on the ninth we look at it and then we take it to NPA at their meeting and then come back to us on the 23rd to approve. I think that would be. The things that will take time in addition to actually drafting the plan but reviewing the evaluation criteria of how we're going to compare the different parking management strategies. We tried to build time in for that. And really spending time drafting the parking and strategies as well. If we're able, are we able to do anything electronically or we have to do things in person. We can share information directly with the committee and everyone can comment individually to send that back to us. We just can't have a back and forth exchange electronically. What do we like Kirsten jumping. We're all partnering. You're muted. So the first thing I wanted to say was. I think that that was very helpful about the clarity upfront that the decision has already been made by the council to remove parking from Winooski. And I think that's very important to have at the forefront of the survey. So that people understand. This is no longer about that decision. It's about how it's managed. It's about how the meeting is managed in the future. If that's the case. And so I think that that that was helpful and I think that that should be, you know, clear in some form of the introduction of the survey and as we continue with these meetings, particularly also at the MPA meeting. I think. That would be important to share. Jack, Jack, I understand you're wanting to have this go faster, but this is a pretty tight schedule. I really think because because this does whatever the strategies that we did do end up being the ones that are coming to the sort of the top of the heap. And that they may have really for some people they may and businesses or locations, they may have some impacts that are difficult or challenging. And as we balance this, there will be some people that will be thrilled and some people that will be less thrilled. And so I think giving it serious talk and thought is is okay. Well, I understand they're planning for the work. They're not going to do the work in the winter. We don't know that their schedule might not slip as well. It's not unheard of. So, I just don't want to shortchange us. And if more meetings by the committee are needed, I can try and make myself available for that as well. But, you know, it is also going to take time if we get a good response on the survey to really kind of crunch that information and be able to present that back not only to us but to have it prepared in a way that it can be presented at the NPA meeting so. Thank you, Kirsten. That was great. I have a Q&A too on there so Marshall can cue that up. Mark, go ahead. I was just going to expand on that and say that I think we should probably approach the trends and try to find out what flexibility they have so. I can confirm their schedule I will say that they did leave this project as the very last one that they're designing, knowing that we were trying to get us additional time every other project is underway and designed. I don't think we're going to do this this one yet because we asked for that additional time so that was, that was the initial deadline they gave us but we will definitely check to see if there's any, any more flexibility. Marshall first maybe Marshall. So Solvegg just has a comment that Ward two and three NPA meetings are the second Thursday of the month. Thank you. And you know one thing I do want to do. I will still. You can speak next counselor handsome I'm just going to share on the screen, Charlie's comments because he did want them to be part of the record. So I just wanted to make sure everyone can see these and of course it was them as I'm trying to drag between screens. Go ahead counselor handsome I'm trying to see this up. Yeah, just following up on the NPA piece. I believe that you know we have to present something to the NPA and kind of show them this before we approve that is my understanding how it's written. So again I think if we're talking about approving on the 23rd I still think it's better to go to them in their September meeting in order to. Because I don't we didn't we shouldn't kind of flip it around we don't approve it and then go to them we go to them first hear what people have to say that's kind of part of the outreach engagement. I think that's why the council included that language is to make sure that that forum was used to get that input so I think we should go to them. In September to get that before we approve it on the 23rd. Yep. And you know the other thing that we can do after this meeting is, you know, continue our conversations is just the small project team to think about you know as we're dragging the criteria and that sort of thing are there other ways that we can like expedite the schedule to get those pieces out to you. In a different way maybe on a different schedule because there are there are some of those that yes we probably could do a little bit more remotely. So we can try to strategize on some of those. So yeah Charlie's are you going to read those. I don't think I need to read it out it's yeah so this this is this is just part of the record now I feel like we have his hand up. Sorry. Max. Oh okay great. Go for it. Yeah, just one quick comment going back to the schedule out to the future here for the summer. I'm pretty flexible as well. So if we need to switch around meetings and things through September. I'm totally all right with that. I could maybe get some more preliminary information or maybe even like a mini slideshow doesn't have to be that much but just some more material that us members could review before future meetings I think would kind of help breeze things along to maybe from here on out it will be. This will be a full time job. So, yeah. Thank you for that and yeah you know I guess before I hide Charlie's comment I will just come back to this because I guess I do want to make sure that everyone else on the committee is we just maybe quickly scan through these. If anybody else has any comments, or additional feedback on Charlie's questions and concerns. I feel like we've talked about most of these but I don't just want to gloss over it so. I came into the meeting, definitely understanding, relating to number one, especially but I think we touched on that. Sorry, sorry, sorry, and then would like to survey and everything these be going out I feel a lot more comfortable in the feedback will probably be getting. Okay, thank you. Jane simply said that you stronger. But coming into the meeting. She really resonated with what Charlie had put on the screen there and now feeling more comfortable that we're addressing those concerns. Kirsten did you still have another question was that hand active. Okay, go for it, but you're muted still. Kirsten you're muted. We can't hear you Kirsten. Oh, you're muted we can't hear you so. We're getting there. Anyway, sorry. I do think we cover a lot of what Charlie raised and I had had some similar concerns which I had shared back with the project team prior to the meeting and I think you did a really nice job of covering that so thank you for that. I just, when counselor Hanson was speaking and I looking at this schedule. I do think that it would, and one of my concerns was how. I'm not going to have the survey but how are we going to take in like and way what happens at the NBA meeting or if there's other types of engagement outside of the survey how does that get weighted and brought in and so I think his point of having the meeting so that the committee can hear what's happening there and sort of absorb that. That feedback and then making the decision before it goes to council makes a lot of sense. Yeah, that's helpful thank you. Yeah. I mean unless people feel differently about it but I do think you know that was my other pieces how are we going to. How does that all that get weighted. Considered. And I think it's premature right now from the from the project team I don't think we have us. We don't have an approach to say survey is going to be 30% and committee 70% or something like that so the committee is going to hear what the survey said, and the committee will decide how to take the feedback that has been collected. It's the human factor. You know I need a human involved. So it is. I think we should have the official public comment period anyway we're taking some comments generally from the committee. But do we want to open it up generally to any other public comment and then and then we come back to the actions. Marshall you're in charge here. We can't see. I'm not seeing any hands raised or anything. I think we should have the actions here right and call I guess it's just two actions from the agenda is that we want to have a have a motion to approve. Thanks to approve this phase B scope of work which you all received by email the actual fully worded scope we just did the highlights here in conversation. I'll move it. Okay. Okay. I'll just add as a discussion point will make that adjustment about the schedule change for the mpa meeting. We can easily adjust that on the scope but. So all those in favor of accepting the phase B. Any more discussion. I mean I want to say yeah I think this is. I agree with others this is a really strong process because when we will be amended this into the council resolution. I don't think we laid out like it wasn't necessarily going to have this level of public engagement it was forming this committee and kind of creating the parking manager plan with the help of you know with experts with RSG. So I do think this is to do this level of public outreach is sort of even above and beyond you know that. So I feel good about that. And I think yeah and again like the npa thing was the npa thing actually was our kind of way of throwing in like getting some of that public feedback so this is taking it you know much further than that but hopefully that'll be the npa will also be part of that. Thank you. Any further discussion. All those in favor of the motion. All right. unanimous. So another we now we need to now we need to decide who I don't know how this process should go frankly who's interested and then if we have more than two people interested we can have a discussion. And just an available this is a tight schedule right yeah. So we'll be meeting over the next two weeks. We'll be scheduling probably as soon as this meeting is done the two individuals will be doing a doodle site poll and getting a meeting scheduled. So I expect at least one meeting right middle of next week and and then probably email dialogue. And then meeting kind of the first part maybe even maybe even two meetings that the first week of August. Yeah right. I'm interested in available but I also if there's two others out there. That's good to be honest. I have availability issues. Okay. I would like to nominate Charlie. I talked I talked to a little earlier today because he was he was he was concerned because he couldn't come tonight and I said well you know, I said put your send the and then we talked I said well you could send an email and so I'm glad he did. And I had asked him if he thought he'd be interested in doing it. I said he would and I, I don't know if he knows the tightness of the schedule. So what I would offer is if it doesn't work for him, I, I absolutely would be willing to make myself available or to participate. Okay. Max any comments because what right now I hear that it might be Charlie and counselor hands. I was going to wait and say that this next week working my way back east. So I may I am interested but slightly unavailable. So that sounds good to me as it is. The committee, the role of the two members will be also we're going to ask them to engage with the other committee members. So that's where Max, your driving schedule and or whatever method of travel you're going to take, people can get you that way, and we'll be sending email correspondence to do that. Yeah, I'll be connected the whole way through for email and calling as need be so it shouldn't be a problem. Great. All right, well so do we need to make that a formal motion or anything. No, I think that's good to members. Well, then I think next steps are that we're going to be sending out the meeting notes from this call. And then we will be sending out a doodle poll to talk about schedule for middle of next week in advance of that we already have kind of a framework for the for the survey. And so I'm going to make further amendments to that survey given what we've discussed today. And I try to capture what was what was discussed. And so we'll have that framework to discuss uses a working session for that first for that first call next week. And then I think you've seen the next steps were then off to the races getting the survey out the door once they're happy with it. And then analyzing, analyzing further data. I'm pierced in that comment about more commercial or non residential parking observations I think you felt like the survey kind of addressed that concern. Was that right, or do you feel like any more observations would be valuable. Maybe I guess part of it is how does I don't know what the how the survey is going to kind of suss that out and so I guess I'd reserve my judgment on that and I. Maybe if I could think about it a little bit more I might spend a little more time. Yeah, think about it and rolling around the corridor and thinking about it I mean, and that's where everybody's gonna have a power PDF of this presentation that will be online that question about the side streets again, how those side streets, the occupancy behaves as of today I'd be really curious.  So you're going to mail out postcards to people whose address have addresses with in the yellow boundary of the project area. Yes, that was the intention to get a physical invitation. Yes. Okay, the study area, right. Okay, anybody in the whole city everybody in the county can take the survey. And that's part of the lawn signs idea that anybody traveling for it or is also invited to take the survey. Okay, I would like to maybe just, we can talk about it offline but I also want to think about like how how to work maybe specifically with like feeding chitin and some of these to make sure when the surveys ready how we work with them to. Work with them to get it to their clientele and the users of these instead of these locations. Yeah, yeah, it's a great point. Happy to talk about that offline. You before we sign off any other public comment or questions. I do not see any. Okay. Thank you very much everybody for attending having a great meeting. Appreciate it. Yes, thank you so much. This is a lot of detail but yeah, we did great. All right, thanks everyone.