Hey everyone it is another episode of this weekend science we are here we are here Broadcasting because I clicked the button and we're live. So that's a great thing We're not gonna talk about, you know, the best worst movie villains. We are gonna talk about science. That's what the next tight 90 minutes 90 90 minutes all gonna bet we are ish ish will be all about we're missing Blair tonight and We're sorry to miss her, but I hope that she is having a wonderful Vacation driving around doing whatever she's doing We don't pry we just hope she's having fun But it's time for us to start the stove this the stove the show so Just remember this is live and when we do mispronounce things and when we make mistakes That's just live and the way it is. We don't have a script and we don't have all sorts of Things you don't have a script. I have a script. Do you not get sent a script? I don't get it I nobody sends me a script There's a script to the oh I'll forward next week. I'll send it to you. Okay. Send me the script Justin I mean really I just Yes, we are here we're live We are unedited in this video space because we are live streaming the podcast is edited and we think Rachel our editor for doing that and Yes, it's time for us to get started Make sure to click those likes and those hearts and the ups votes and all the things so that other people in the search Algorithms find us when they're looking for science time to begin. We are starting this show in three two this is Twist this week in science episode number 904 recorded on Wednesday December 7th 2022 Justin, how can you science your way out of a lying toddler? I'm dr. Kiki and tonight on the show We are going to fill your heads with Chardonnay lying toddlers and a big ol science feud but first Disclaimer disclaimer disclaimer the planet earth the one we are living on is in trouble The moment in which we can do something about it is now You let a lot of nows go past without doing anything and so we are running out of them So this now that today now is really the most important one of all So much so that the united nation's cop 15 biodiversity conference that started today Is being called the last best chance to save the planet species From irreversible destruction So there is still hope That a global deal to protect nature and the benefits it provides to all people will be negotiated During the conference. We just need to rely on world governments to prioritize Things that there's what do they got there the equitable sharing of benefits from the use of nature And the safe transport handling and labeling of little modified organisms. Oh, no, that's they're going to address Biotech legal issues not planet wide sustainability Which is important the biotech issues are extremely important That's such a weird issue that you can't use a microbe if it was found in a foreign nation to do your research but still The planet is uh the planet We only have one And it's the only one we know that can support This week in science Coming up next I've got the kind of mind that can't get enough. I want to let it happen every day of the week There's only one place to go to find the knowledge I seek. I want science to you kiki And a good science to you too justin blairs out for the night But we are here as we love to be to talk about science Pretty much every week of the year Oh, it's december already. I don't know how it got here, but somehow we are here Well last month, I know it was november and before that It is october. I know it keeps going. I know it doesn't it doesn't pause Keep waiting for the pause. Yeah. Yeah, no, there's no pause button. It keeps going And so here we are in december and wow Yeah, I just want to say Happy twisember Yeah This is always an exciting month because we're gonna have we're gonna have at some point. I think uh still in december We have the top 11 stories Of this past year boy, and it's been a year. Is it 2019? It's 22 we You're still pod. We got to unpause kiki. Right. Okay. We're gonna and then and then at some point either By the end of this month, or maybe the beginning of next month, we'll have our prediction show Yes, we're we're going to check how we The predictions we made last year about this year's science and make new predictions for the future The scientific future. Yeah, so there are some fun shows that are coming Your way and our way because we enjoy doing these shows every year and uh, this is Another week full of great science news and I have brought stories about yes A science feud. Yes. There is a debate happening in the paleo community uh, and I uh Justin you're gonna love this story. Uh, we also have uh lying. I brought the lying toddlers That's what I do. I come to parties. I bring the lying toddlers And I brought a cold nose some animal sounds and some concerns about neuro link What did you bring?  You're breaking up like crazy. Let's stop for a second. Oh, yeah, and I know it's because I opened a google doc It's because I opened a google doc. I'll turn it off I got really old dna. How to avoid autumn children a new animal segment idols versus owl dolls and just good news Chardonnay edition Oh, I love chardonnay. Hopefully my internet can recover from Opening a google document. I don't know why it becomes a problem We will see as we will also see What is going on with all these scientific stories as we jump into the show I want to remind you all that Even though Blair's not here. We're gonna still talk about some animal stuff That's gonna happen And if you have not yet subscribed to the twist podcast you can find us Most places podcasts are found we are known as this weekend science. You can find us also by looking for twist and we Stream weekly 8 p.m. Pacific time on youtube facebook and twitch We are twist science on twitch twitter and instagram And if this is just a lot go to twist.org That's our website where you can find all sorts of fabulous things Like the link to purchase our 2023 blairs animal corner twist calendar Which Blair did some amazing work on to create some incredible Lego animals. It's all Lego based. It's it's really great Yeah, and uh, you can purchase through the zazzle link which will get you a nice printed calendar or you can also purchase Through a PayPal link that will get you a downloadable pdf so you can print it as you would like But now it's time For this weekend science. What do we have? I want to start with a little science battle. You ready?  I don't know what it is I know this controversy So we have talked on this program about the paleontological paleontological discovery at a site known as the tannis site that is here in north america that has evidence in the form of little uh Not crystalline but sphere rules that were found in fish and fossilized organisms and the layers of sediment that time it to the impact at the yucatan crater of the asteroid that killed All the dinosaurs about 65 million years ago or so creating huge tsunamis that pulsed up through the river valleys of north america and really show the impact of How far reaching That That impact actually was killed the dinosaurs. But what what else happened? Okay, so we know that there was a researcher who uh, robert depalma who published his research on this subject There was another researcher named melanie durring who in june 2021 submitted a manuscript to nature And she was pretty excited because she was working at that same paleontological site Which by the way Robert depalma has the lease on to do the work in Um, but she was a graduate student. She's doing the work And she was like, oh, I found some cool things She got depalma to send her her fossils that she dug up and she did um, a lot of work that really solidified those Those sphere you sphere rules that uh, could use could be used to carbon date The impact and what it actually happened So They were working together durring and depalma. They were working together They were at the site at the same time. Depalma actually sent her her fossils They were all doing their stuff together durring Put him as a second author on her paper that was published in nature in february and She discovered in december 2021 while her paper was still being reviewed peer reviewed her collaborator depalma Published his own paper that did not use she wasn't included on used a completely separate data set and um, they are saying that depalma made his data up What? Yeah So the this is reported in science, uh, the uh, and And the melanie durring she has a twitter thread that she talks about this a bit on This is reported by michael price on the science.org news website But the thing is He published basically the same conclusions that durring had come to but without putting her on the paper using his own data that nobody can Replicate that nobody can can know whether nor not it's accurate because he Has been unable to produce that data set People have asked for the data set and he isn't giving it to anybody And so, uh They this is very very Sounds like the he frances cricked her That's kind of what it seems like is going on.  And then he's like, oh, I'll get to the d to fill in the details later Because that's literally how they ended their first paper on dna, by the way We understand ramifications of what we we've put in this paper and will provide more Affinitive details on it later. That's how they finished their paper. Here's our conclusion Well, I'll give you data and fill in stuff some other point further down the road Yeah, so in this science article, uh, it says that The data that would be the data that depalma would be giving to everyone to support His analyses he says the raw data are missing because the scientist who ran the analyses died Before the paper was published and so nobody's been able to get the data out of this deceased person's laboratory Oh, okay Now look now look As long as he did name them on the paper Right cited them that work That okay, so because that's that's a huge thing Raw data can sometimes Be pretty massive sometimes take up a lot of space sits on a computer or a server somewhere It's not the output that you that you generally Put into a paper. It's not the you know, that's the analysis is all done in the box, right? Yeah, there is if somebody who owns that box is dead. It's can be impossible.  Yeah So, you know, what's what I think is very interesting here is that in science Getting the scoop being the one to publish first is often, you know, that is So much of the scientific endeavor competition is we don't talk about it a lot on this show but the competition within science is to be the first to publish something is There's huge pressure there and so it There's a game being played here that we might not know we don't know all the information on What we do know is that De Palma did release a lot of the information ahead of publication that there was Media circus around his findings that there's even a documentary that has been published related to the findings that he and also You know what Doring published about and other researchers, but There's a lot that hinges on this and it's it's fascinating to Watch this coming out in in real time and to see A young female scientist actually putting her foot down and Trying to get some credit right saying no, I did this work. This is my stuff This is you know, this is what I did and you know, so there's Is there etiquette involved though? Because you're saying like he's There is etiquette. She put him as second author on She put him a second author on the paper and he left her off Okay, yeah, that that doesn't sound right But then again the way you presented it initially is he had the lease to do the research on this land Like this sound like his project. He's got the other researchers and he let other researchers jump in So is he like is there's any kind of etiquette where it's like, all right, this is your project I've got a paper that is now ready to go But since this is your Thing that you brought out everybody else onto Do we wait for you to publish? Do you do we confer with you first? Like I don't know how it's all supposed to work, but I I can tell you if it is fake data Yeah, and that is the concern So, uh, Doring has said that she's not just a russies in the figures There's concerns that the authors aren't publishing their, uh, their raw data And they're and so people are they're dead people are looking into it I mean the story still stands because Doring Has published her data which she insists is correct and she can publish her raw data She's got got it supporting her. So anyway It's scientific because she didn't collaborate with dead people That's a very I mean, that's a very difficult situation It's a very difficult situation to to parse out from the outside however If if she contributed to the findings that are in the paper that she was left off of Yes, then uh, then yes, you should absolutely Cast this individual out into the wilderness Banished from society If on the other hand this is if the the the perspective is This was his project and he let other people Jump in and do research in that The space that he had carved out as long as they didn't interfere with his thing Then it's a different story. Yeah, so here's the question Is it is it he was doing his own research and doing his own thing and let other people Use the ground that he was leasing that area Um, or is it that you know, she shared her findings with him tried to get him to be on you know to Work with her and he he refused and then went on without her using her information You know jealous that his project where he found nothing of interest Somebody else has made a major discovery and it should be mine. I I got the land lease. I filled out the grant paperwork or whatever it was and therefore everything's mine Right then guys Yeah, so what what what the bottom line is this is uh the The stuff that has been found at the tannis site does have data supporting it We do have that we do have data that supports the timeliness We do have data that supports how this might have worked Um, you know, so it's great to know that there are possibly multiple studies that are all supporting the of what happened and the what depalma has been Um publicizing through the media or one story that That has data supporting and another one that claims to claims to yeah, because actually, you know, and this is this is an interesting thing it's sort of sideways, but It's actually a problem. I have with uh, a lot of early psychology experiments They there there's a there's a trend of early psych psychology experiments when when a big study is publicized in a lot of people the Marshmallow test is a perfect example. Yes. Yes the marshmallow test got a lot of attention or right away and subsequently researchers Did their own version of it different And got like the exact same result right something that in psychology Is insanely difficult to replicate to begin with but when there's a very popular study There's a bunch of researchers who This is especially old. I'm sure it goes on still today, but this is the specific cases One of the specific cases They there's a lot of replication that happens that's Very similar to the point where it becomes suspect No, I mean, there's the other side of it, which is the uh, actually in psychology The effort To replicate psychology studies and there has been a very big effort to actually go through these big psychology studies that seem to have these amazing results And replicate them and see if they can get the same results Yeah, and very often they're not able to it's a replication The point is, you know replication replication is important It is collaboration is important science to this, you know Science itself as an institution is competitive and it You know, I've known other people to be Scooped on their science, you know, and it it hurt it And careers change as a result of that who was the first who was the second, but Yeah, this is it's interesting to see this come out now and to see See this feud and we will let everybody know Where it goes. Will there be more replications? Will the data come out? Will the palma? Find the data. Will he not what's gonna happen? We don't know, but um, I think it's a very interesting case study of How science Sometimes happens in a way that isn't all nice and shiny and in the laboratory and oh findings That, you know, we like to we like to pretend that it is very often But let's go back in time. You like archaeological stuff. Tell me a story chestin Yeah, so once upon a time a young phd candidate was looking out his window And he saw a a dog Take a take a dump on the sidewalk And he thought to himself Wow, I bet that the DNA of that dog Is going to be in the surrounding soil for the next thousand years and he and his phd candidate brought it up to his is The advisor phd advisor at the university there at the the science science university he was going at And the advisor said that's the stupidest idea I've ever heard well now That uh that candidate uh got his phd and went on to become Uh a world-renowned scientist professor eskia willerslev Who has pioneered the field of environmental dna? e-dna e-dna Yeah And has made now a record-breaking Uh Find discovery Two million year old dna Has been identified not just identified sequenced Sequenced and categorized That's that's wait two million year old dna like Million at least At least it could be older They used this is an important note because they used the most conservative time estimation That was available Uh And they got to two million years it could be it could be much older in fact It was identified in northern greenland sediment researchers discovered Uh these fragments that's a million years like we have a million year old segment of dna From a Siberian mammoth bone That's the record holder was Doubled it two million years old way back an environmental dna so it's not From a creature It's from over a hundred This is uh made possible But it's just it's just incredible Okay, so this is professor bill stuff It says a new chapter spanning one million extra years of history has finally been opened And for the first time we can look directly at the dna of a past ecosystem that far back in time According to a professor Chair who I think is the One of the other researchers on the Paper the ancient dna samples were found buried deep in sediment that had built up over 20 000 years The sediment was eventually preserved in ice or permafrost and crucially not disturbed by humans for two million years At first I I read that and i'm like wow Something undisturbed by humans for two million years and then I was oh well. Yeah current modern humans weren't really Not really around for most of that time And we show up and the first thing we do. Hey, let's go digging that Undisturbed two million year old bit of dirt so samples were taken from something called the kubanhound Formation the sediment deposit 100 meters thick at the mouth of an arctic ocean fjord in greenland's northernmost point The climate they say there in greenland time was Buried between being arctic and temperate it was 10 to 17 degrees celsius warmer Then greenland is today so much warmer than than now It was 40 researchers from denmark uk france sweden norway us and germany working on this Looking at uh looking at the dna segments. Apparently the process was pretty painstaking They there's you know, this is two million year old dna and they They needed a way to get the dna that was hidden in clay and quartz rock And detach it from the sediment to examine it And the question is could they do that and the answer was no They could not Okay Yeah, they could not do it and So at the This level says we we we failed We tried and we tried and we tried and we tried and we failed and we failed and we failed again Uh, and then they did some more science uh to it and the answer became yes. Yes. They could yes. They did researchers Turned to matching these dna fragments and they animals plants and microorganisms And they created a map of a two million year old ecosystem because they got so much This must have been sort of exciting and also a little bit tedious Because what you're doing is you're taking basically you're googling within a library of known dna Very small fragments Yep, you know, uh, you would hope to have a sentence You might have a few you might have a word you might have a couple of words You hope to really have more than more than that in a in a row In these fragments you might get some of that you might not but so what happens is you get You you you you could get a conserved section of dna There's a little fragment that you're you're searching through the library might be a conserved fragment It could be it might come back with the answer plant It might come back. It's like this matches mammals Right this might right you could be but if it's more specific segment Something that isn't isn't as generally conserved. It works more like a keyword search So now you you you're you're searching Uh in the right family of animals, right species of animals Maybe you even get something that only occurs in in arctic hares, for instance So so some of the dna fragments were easy to classify this way as predecessors present a species others were stuck at the genus level Some originated from species impossible to place in the dna libraries of any organism alive today Suggesting that only aliens from another planet could just kidding. It's never aliens. It's just it never is no So suggesting those are lineage is that died out that we don't or yet that we haven't found again. Yes That died out or it could be died out Absolutely, or it could be The segments also the segments just might not have been able to be categorized whether they were too Small or just didn't fit into any No, you know, you never know what you've got in terms of that segment. What what bit of the code it is so So yeah picture began to emerge of this very different balmy greenland They found dna from trees bushes birds animals and microorganisms reindeer hares lemmings black geese horseshoe crabs birch and popular trees more than 100 plants and mastodons What previously previously not thought to roam so far off the ranges of known central america They found evidence of mastodon dna So apparently quartz and clay in the soil played a crucial role the charged surfaces of the minerals captured dna and protected it from degrading enzymes and oxidizing agents so dna has a charge and apparently so does the The crystallized minerals or the quartz minerals in this soil And so I guess it would work a little bit like a static cling. It just sort of like kadook Attaches itself Magnetically, I suppose to the to the electrostatically. Yeah And Yeah, so and this was all figured out by co-author Karina sand a geochemist at university of covenhagen The onset of the ice ages then about 2.5 million years ago Helped by keeping the dna frozen to the present day And then such a lush balmy ecosystem could have existed half a million years into the pleasing Suggest greenland hadn't yet fully glaciated because there's no trees in greenland There's there's not that there's a lot of small plants, but not in any great collection Certainly some of those animals aren't there, right? But uh, there are muskox still there today Uh, but the the trees is really odd. So this must you know So the question is it hadn't fully gone glacier yet in greenland Or maybe this was a warm point In an inter glacial period Or the dna might just be older than they think because of the way that they did the dating It could be before 2.5 million years I suppose because that's the glaciation event coming on but let's have uh, this According here, uh Oh, no, sorry. This is a break. So this breakthrough when they realized they could they could unstick these The dna from these minerals And we'll just have saying a crudysand was instrumental in breaking the cap covenhagen curse She and colleagues learned how to liberate nearly half the dna bound to quartz and much less that bound in clay and 41 Samples they sequenced and extracted dna and many short stretches and screen nearly three billion Reads against libraries of living species He says goes on to say dna generally survives best in cold dry conditions So such as though that prevailed during most of the period since the material was deposited in this board But now that we have successfully extracted ancient dna from clay and quartz It may be possible that clay May have preserved ancient dna in warm humid environment environments and sites found in africa If we can begin to explore ancient dna and clay grains from africa We may be able to gather groundbreaking information about the origin of many different species perhaps Even new knowledge About the first humans and their ancestors possibilities said to us that are endless So and what's really a fascinating about this is that Yeah, you know, not only did they break the record once In a sense of getting a million year older dna two million year old dna a million years older than that mastodon bone That was previously the oldest They did it hundreds of times Right and it's not just for one thing It's for 100 plants and all these animals and trees And it's a new method because it doesn't rely on that complete isolation of the dna from the substrate Which is something that has been basically just the the foundation of genetic sequencing so I mean, I guess the question now is we want to make sure I mean the fact that they've done it hundreds of times They've got all these different species. They've got lots of matches with different things. It's it it seems as though they've Crossed their t's doubted their eyes done their homework made everything work But you know, the question is, you know, even today In looking at like COVID-19 sequencing from different places. We have contamination issues, right? so What is the potential for contaminate cross-contamination of the sample with stuff that is currently in in the environment? How do we know that there's not, you know, yeah We need more we we need more data. We need more studies. We need replicate replication What you're talking about But yeah, I mean if if this can be Fossilized and preserved in a cold climate Could it be found in a warm climate where that that where? You wouldn't normally expect to be able to find this kind of information because of degradation because of humidity Humidity and heat are usually two problems. But if you've got something that's underground Not oxy Oxidized and then you've got this static cleaning effect going on with the with the courts It gives a great possibility that this is elsewhere And and I think that there is a mystery here that I can't Uh, I can't quite sort We've got a balmy There's a saying balmy. They think this is almost it was almost an environment unlike what you see elsewhere anywhere else in the world Where you have the Arctic? And How they get there how they get there It's one thing when that when the north sea freezes over which there's still going to be the winter It's still that far north. It's still gonna have six months of darkness. You you could you surrounded your island There's water swimming mastodons. Something could walk over. Yeah Mastodons, they've got a like built in rain deer. I don't know And reindeer so I mean that's the stuff walking over there from north america And and any usually picture that island hopping most places During a glaciation event when the sea levels are really low land was But then if it's really cold if there it could freeze over so you could walk over ice But which is it you could you're saying it's it's too warm for the ice, but too cold for the oh Great mystery. It's a great mystery. It's gonna be fun for We love the mysteries Yes, that's delve Um, well, let's talk about the mystery of the club at the end of the ankliosaurus tail Oh Why does it have a club back there? Well, if my uh cartoon knowledge of dinosaurs is an indication it's for whacking things For whacking things exactly so a researcher was looking it has been looking at the uh Ankliosaur for years and years and years and in this particular study lead author dr. Victoria arbor Curator of paleontology at the royal british columbia museum In uh at the royal ontario museum in toronto has been studying Ankliosaurus for a very long time and she was like tail clubs Some of them have them and some of these very similar dinosaurs do not What were the structures used for so you think It's a big old club at the end of the tail. It's probably used for bashing and so She was asking. Okay. Is it a weapon? So in 2009 she suggested in a paper This is a weapon for bashing But uh, you needed evidence for that. So they did work looking at the flanks of adult fossilized ankliosaurs and found that there were all sorts of All sorts of wounds that had healed there was damage On the on the outside evidence of broken and injured bony structures on the outside of these osteoderms, which by the way, I love their name because i'm a ghost busters fan um, they are identified as Zool Cruary vastator Zool right zool from ghost busters and then The other words for cruary vastator cruce shin or shank and vastator destroyer The destroyer of zool the destroyer of shins Which is a pretty awesome name to have and you know, I might Change my name anyway The idea was okay. Is this a weapon for self-defense? Is it a weapon for? You know fighting against other ankliosaurs. Is it a weapon? You know, are they fighting against t-rexes? What's going on there? so They uh, they did a bunch of you know, their analyses and they were like look at all these Ankliosaurs with their broken up bones and other things and There so anyway evidence The clubs at the ends of the tails of the ankliosaurs are for Were for not are I mean we just see them now, but they were for bashing other ankliosaurs So it was like when the behavioral Posturing stopped working And they fought each other what did they have to fight with they had the tail clubs and So they used them against each other The reason they know this is because there were not any comparable injuries on The other similar dinosaurs the notosaurus that did not have tail clubs So ankliosaurs were like dude I'm gonna fight you And then they fight each other and the notosaurus were like, I don't have anything to fight you with somewhere Somewhere in a grave Is A researcher turning over an old paleontologist well very old now Who discovered ankliosaur and already noticed this It's like yeah, it was wordplay ankle Soar get it. That's how I That's why I named it that it's I discovered that of hundred years ago. Oh never mind. I'm dead now So from these they did not find any evidence of Bite marks or scratch marks that would have been evidence of predation So this wasn't this wasn't the velociraptors Coming in and causing damage and then exactly. Yeah Yep, these were Ankliosaurs going I have a beef with you I'm taking out your shins I am zool destroyer of shins So it's such a it's such an oddly weighted tail in that respect You wonder if is this was this used in mating competition Was this just accidental Hey, look, we've developed this tail that can go like look what I can do with my new bank. Oh, I'm sorry Oh, they're just apologizing to each other constantly. I didn't mean it Didn't mean it It's got this big whack-a-mole thing on my tail. It's way back there. I didn't even see it when I turned around That's pretty long yeah, so the lead researcher likes to uh, which I'm sorry Blair is not here tonight to discuss this but uh enjoys the analogy that The tail of the ankliosaurs is similar To the head of a giraffe So male giraffes with their ossicons their little horns at the top of their heads will swing their necks around and smack each other with their heads, um and can really Hurt each other and break each other's legs by using. Oh, yeah They're their heads and their horns as a weapon. So this is the head of giraffe swinging me once It's very frightening. It's very telegraphed too. It's not that difficult to avoid Yeah, it's very much like that. It's like, what are you? Oh, I see what you're doing. Yeah plenty of time, but gosh powerful So So boy you want to avoid getting hit by uh giraffe heads or Ankliosaurs than their tails. Yeah All right, let's let's talk about ADHD. Is that where you want to go now? Uh, yeah, so this is not exactly new news We've known for decades that the youngest child in the classroom is the most likely identified as having attention to deficit hyperactive disorder We've talked about it on the show plenty of times all kind of came about when instead of doctors they started having teachers do initial assessments on whether or not a child was Hyperactive and You know the the result is that a lot of Kid who happened to be the youngest child in the classroom Got pegged as ADHD whether they actually were or not Now an extremely comprehensive study has confirmed that this is so In the study that included all Norwegian children Yeah Born between 1989 and 1998 Uh total around 488,000 individuals. Wow. Okay. Yeah, not often you get a study that's that's all of a population Yeah They found that children born in november to december Had an 80 higher risk Of being prescribed ADHD medication Compared to those just born in january february So I guess that may that means there's a pretty simple solution Uh to ADHD Just don't have sex in early spring That way you avoid The autumn children problem Right, right, right. You don't have the youngest child who is a little bit behind in the developmental aspects of But of course, then you know what happens those those Summer kids become the youngest And then they just it just continues it continues it continues the way that so the way that we're looking at it and the way that we are defining these self-control issues and these I guess defining caring or allowing school teachers to be the first The first it's probably not the best probably not the best way to go So, uh, according to this the study lead christine strand bakman in the norwegian university of science and technology Says it looks like we're medicating the most immature children because we're comparing them to their oldest classmates Who are a year older? So obviously Yep, they're going to seem different That shouldn't be the basis for receiving an ADHD Diagnosis we have to expect that a child born in november is going to be less mature than a february child born The same year Of course, we can't stop diagnosing ADHD and giving medic medicine to those who need it, but what we see here is something else In particular she also was studying premature children born before the 37th week of pregnancy So then they've got they've actually got it the worst if they're born as an autumn child Because and they get their prescribed medication at even higher rates because the tendency there is They're born early in autumn and So they're in class. They're more than a year Right there. They're a year and some more months younger in essence along the path of development Then their peers So they get they get like a little double burden there But yeah, she says it has everything to do with age in class. There's no seasonability link There's no seasonality link. There's no oh because of autumn children You're being boring. Okay having to come into the world in the winter. They become no It's nothing like this. That's not yeah, that's not the issue Is the cause of excess ADHD? That's one solution She says is it you could just wait till the following year or not compare children against their peers and just base what's happening on You know how they're developing and how whether or not they are developing and reacting to situations and working on you know working on stuff at the pace at which Yeah, we consider to be quote-unquote average And you know as are in law is saying, you know it potentially in our chat room right now over on twitch Maybe it's lucky that younger kids get diagnosed earlier When they need it because of this but at the same time there is this potential aspect of over diagnosis because you're just looking at kids who are Developmentally less mature. Yeah with respect to the 80% higher rate Yeah, 80% higher rate And then by the time they're teenagers a lot of that's going to disappear in terms of the differentiation with who's on medications and not But that seems like there's definitely a problem in the schools in the way Bachman points out that studies from Denmark have shown that there is No increase use of ADHD medication among youngest pupils in class but In Denmark 40% almost half of the students the half of the autumn children Start school the following year They delay different because in Denmark There is your first assessment before starting Regular school and kindergarten, I guess They they look at the individual child and say are they ready? Or are they not ready? And if they are still exhibiting a lot of those younger immature behaviors, perhaps they might wait and the bachman is not advocating that all Autopones start starting school because again that would probably just shift the problem to the To winter children would then be the youngest in class But uh like the Danish system they should be individually assessed With a focus on the child's Specific needs study also looked at other types of medications such as depression anxiety psychosis sleeping pills And they found the same age effect for several of these drugs as well Clearly children born late in the year are receiving more medication compared to the older ones Hmm Interesting Very interesting. This is data Who knows it was made possible because Norway has a very centralized it's one country But it's like like one centralized health care system so they could track They could track half a million kids Uh through through their medical history, which is really amazing what they're in their the drugs that they were They were assigned Speaking of kids.  What? Parents seem to report lying Starting at about two two and a half three years old In kids and the question is what's going on with this lying the manipulation of Someone else to believe something and what you want them to believe whether or not it's true Um, and so some researchers publishing in applause journals this week They did an experiment in which they subjected a bunch of Two and a half year olds to Something like the marshmallow test not the marshmallow test, but there was a box There's a little hole in it And sometimes they allowed the parents to be around and sometimes the parents weren't allowed to be around and then they were like Don't look in the box You don't get to look in the box And then they'd come back later and this is a test related to inhibitory control and Whether the kids could you know sit on their hands not look in the box. Listen to instruction Do what they were told right? What's in the box? What is in the box? And then the researchers came back and they asked the kids Did you look in the box? and a lot of the kids said Yes Even though they had not looked in the box And so the question is you know, is this lying is this what is going on here You know, and then they'd ask them what is do you know what is in the box and it was a stuffed teddy bear that was in the box Was not a snake because that's it was not a snake. It was not Dangerous, it was you know nothing or anything like that. So did you peak? and they had 35 percent of the kids that peaked 65 percent of the kids that did not peaked did not peak But a lot of the non-peakers Actually the ones that never peaked they said yes, I did peak But they didn't know what was in the box. And so the question is you know, why did they falsely confess to the peaking Well, it's it's sort of like when uh, when somebody asks you if you've seen a movie and you're like Oh, yeah, I saw that movie and then you realize. Oh, gosh. I didn't actually see that movie. I don't know anything about it Why did I tell that lie? That's a terrible lie to tell now. They're talking about this movie and I've never seen it I'll just keep nodding until they change the subject. I'll never do it again Yes, exactly. So um So they and they they did snack delay tests similar to the mushroom the the marshmallow trials to see you know, whether or not these kids had the ability to control their their wants inhibitory control and You know, even the kids that were more able to Wait for a snack or less likely to peek in the box and all this kind of stuff. But um What the researchers ended up taking into their conclusion was that the false confessors And even the truth tellers the maybe It was the beginning of the question that was asked Did you Did I did you do? Yes I understand. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and they're the researchers conclusion in this study is not necessarily that these kids actually Were malicious meant meaning to manipulate in the lie that they told at two and a half years of age But more that it was a spontaneous Lie rather than deliberate Because they were following the language that the adult was using And not so much that the kids were like You know wanting to lie about something Yeah, and it's also going to be a thing where every single child Imagined looking in the box Right exactly. So so You know in in the child mind of did you look in the box and they're thinking like oh, yeah, like several times apparently It you know, there might be a memory of imagining it over and over again because something has been drawing your attention to it. So That's very interesting. I mean you an adult comes to you and says Did you peek? Yes. Yes, I did. Yes It's supposed to Yes, if I wasn't supposed to then definitely not Yeah, so this is more of an impulsive as opposed to a uh Manipulatory Response, but they're fully capable of that too. They're fully they're fully capable of that. Yeah, I've I've had three toddlers two of which Definitely made up stories to manipulate their papa for sure two and a half years of old Oh, yeah.  Two two and a half. All right This is this is a this is a fun story about my oldest boy Sebastian, uh, he wanted a popsicle for breakfast And I was like no popsicles are treat Special occasions. It's not uh, we don't have those for breakfast It's not food And he went and he got the cereal box and he was Pretend reading the back of the cereal box. Uh-huh look papa popsicles are food popsicles Breakfast And I was like, oh that was good That was good, but you still don't get a popsicle. No, he got one Well, he backed it up with evidence. I wanted to support that part of it that he had brought text evidence He might have been three He might have been just a little bit more advanced. Um, I have one more quick study here related to uh winter colds and Why do we get so many colds in the winter time? Well, we've talked What? Whoa, go ahead. What were you gonna say? Can I guess? You guess guess away So the thing I've always heard is there's nothing to do with temperature But it has to do with the fact that well sort of because it's cold outside So people are indoors more and if you're in closer proximity to in a sealed air environment then Sicknesses transmit quick colds will transmit faster that way. That's what I've always heard And this is one aspect of it but a new study that was uh, published out of northeastern University this uh last week by a professor mensur amiji He has been looking at Samples from inside people's noses He took, you know tissue samples from inside people's noses And they investigated the role of the nasal epithelium-derived extracellular vesicles in their uh antiviral immunity responses and so there's this When you're in normal temperatures at body temperatures, your nose is like I'm happy I'm at a body temperature 98.6 ish degrees. It's all good a virus comes in Or some kind of thing and then your nasal mucosa is like Spin it out and then there are these uh, extracellular vesicles they get flushed out of the cells Extracellular outside of the cell they get out and they have these receptors that are antiviral they they attached to the viruses they fight end up fighting them off so They took a lot of specimens from people's noses and then looked at them at room temperature or at body temperature 37 degrees celsius 98.6 degrees fahrenheit versus Uh, it's 32 degrees celsius, which is just like in the 86 ish 89 ish degree range Yeah, so not a lot colder really, but just you know, the cold air gets in there It might have cooled down the nose just a little bit during the winter And they determined that there were fewer of these Extracellular vesicles that were elicited to suppress viral infections They used fairly common RSV we're dealing with an at respiratory syncytial virus and other Flu virus kinds of things kinds of viruses to to see and so what they're what they are thinking considering is that this is a mechanistic explanation for How? More colds happen during the winter months So it's not just that it's just it's Your nose get the inside of the nose gets cold And so the vesicles are like the cells are like, ah, not gonna produce the stuff and they don't Yeah Seems like a very complicated answer. I like Kevin Reardon in the chat room's answer best. It's duty child care Yeah, put kids in a room together They catch each other things and then they bring them home and then you're sick Everybody else is excited and Kevin says welcome to the collective. Yes No, that's a great point. That's a great point. All of all of this regulation might just have to do with uh Daycare or the kindergarten Kids who lick playground equipment sharing germs together Spreading it to the rest of the world What I what I what I find interesting about this though is that these researchers are You know looking at Mechanistic therapeutic solutions to this problem. Like can we create some kind of therapeutic? Medication or a substance or something That you can use and I'm just thinking to myself as I'm going by well.  What are you doing? Oh, I'm just getting Just getting ready to go and start rubbing your nose. We're hard.  Okay This is this weekend science. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of fun-filled science discussion If you are enjoying the show, please consider telling a friend and do make sure to head over to twist.org and Get one of our 2023 Blair's Animal Corner twist calendars, they are gorgeous beautiful Lego animals artwork that Blair Created specifically for this calendar and we are just so excited that you might be interested in them make great gifts digital downloads or printed versions are available and if you go to the Zazzle store, which is where the printed version versions are we have lots of other things too that make great gifts for you or others Whatever it is Okay, we're gonna move forward now, but it's not Blair's animal corner time No, it's a new segment called just interesting animal corridor with With not Blair I was gonna play the music, but I can't play the music right now. This is this weekend science Okay, we're back. Let's talk about the animals. Justin what you got? Uh, just interesting animals with Justin Tel Aviv University studies discovered that the female locust has superpowers Turns out female locust central nervous system has elastic properties Allowing her to stretch up to two or even three times her original length That's pretty incredible lady locusts engage in this superhuman Superlocust behavior while laying eggs in the ground all that stretching Happens without causing any irreparable damage It was a it was surprising to find this according to researchers. This is the only creature That they are aware of that can do this for instance nerves in the Uh human nervous system Can stretch about 30 percent It's pretty good 30 percent without tearing or becoming permanently damaged So 200 to 300 percent is insane by comparison Okay, so they think the in the future these findings may contribute to new developments in the field of regenerative medicine as a basis for nerve restoration development of synthetic tissues and and of course one day To make a super stretchy superhero human hybrid creature. Oh, like like really like like an elastic man Very good, you're really good, but like if you know if you did transpose this to human And if a human It's a like a 15 to 18 20 foot maybe even put long human being There's a there's a graphic of this too where her Her lady locusts abdomen section Is stretching down into a hole they got these little tubular things at the end of the abdomen that that dig out These deep trenches and so when the abdomen Go pushes down down down down down to the ground it gets to a certain depth And it says okay now it's cool to lay eggs Down far enough we've safely protected and then then it just it goes back into shape And lady locusts continues on her day like nothing happened This sounds like one of those, you know, awesome things that sound that that happens to pregnant women You know like there are all sorts of changes that happen to the Female mammalian body, but this is you know an insect female That's sexually mature. Um Yeah, I'm wondering, you know, okay number one. Why does it have to elongate? Is it part of the process of getting The eggs into the ground Is that like a necessary aspect of it? Is it they elongate and then as they're squishing back up it just squishes all the eggs out um What you know, what's what's happening with this locust and why and then how much? Longer after they do this do they live? You might want a full longevity All right, don't locusts die. They're like I I reproduced so now I'm gonna die Every everything he does eventually that's true, but I guess this is uh According to the graphic you had up there looks like it's about a half hour process Uh, so it's it's not it's not like a rapid like whoop whoop kind of a situation You know, it's it's a slow elongation and they The researchers are saying they expected there was a hypothesis previously some other Examples in nature that they're familiar with of some form of an accordion like mechanism you know segmented section of Of sort of like what do you call it Russian dolls where you've got you know one thing is inside another none of that none of that They they discovered that the nervous system of the female locust has elastic properties That's cool. I'll allow it to elongate. So it's it's uh, it's a very cool thing, but it's also a mechanism They haven't seen before they I love this quote. This is dr. Pen uh, fantastic. Who is the researcher? on this This finding is almost incomprehensible From a biomechanical and morphological point of view So, uh, it shows you how sort of like unexpected Of a find this was But it's definitely related to sexual maturity. So there are hormones involved There's something going on that changes the capacity of these Locusts to be able to become more elastic making Interesting what is it quinceanera or uh, you know the various Various, uh, ceremonies that we have for coming of age and now you are elastic We will stretch you and you will be fine Yeah, isn't that isn't that uh pretty close to home? I don't know I don't know, but maybe we should be talking to the animals a little bit more Animals have you got talking animals? Well animals talk all the time. It's just whether or not we actually understand them If you were to sit down and listen to a bunch of Animal sounds Horses sheep cows Do you think that you would understand what these animals were feeling The emotion that was being conveyed Interesting. So I feel like with the cows and horses that might have an inkling Of their mood like sheep and goats. They're just they're just always sound annoyed. So I would you can't tell I don't know if you're happy sad or really mad. It all sounds the same to me But a horse and a cow they kind of have different emotive qualities to To the moves in the the nays This is a farm kid, you know telling you right, okay.  So these researchers publishing in the royal society Uh this week they were studying how people Whether people understand or can uh kind of kind of understand the emotional aspects. So they were looking at uh, the the Aspects of emotional arousal, which is like bodily activation related to emotion valence is whether or not something is negative or positive and whether or not we could by listening to the calls of these animals under various situations of Stress or just being on the field and being happy or whatever whether we could get the Emotion or whether we could understand the valence whether or not it was positive or negative They also did a bunch of Had people listen participants listen to a bunch of recordings of kind of Meaningless word speech random kind of blah blah blah kind of stuff that what had had different emotional or valent connotations to it in the way that it sounded so the interesting aspect of this is that the People who are in the studies listening to the animals they were able to rate above chance the arousal levels of vocal vocal vocalizations Of three of the four three of the six ungulate species that were involved valence of four of them They didn't differ a lot across arousal levels And there was a lot of variation on whether or not we got whether or not it was negative or positive sounds The researchers go on to say that they think that this indicates that there is a shared mammalian system for expressing and understanding Emotions And that we are tuned into that And so what I find and find interesting They've got an image in their paper that they published where they've got the correct recognition related to The emotional aspect or the valence aspect and people seem really really in tune with horses and with pigs and With goats we're doing really great there Not so much People can understand a goat that's fascinating Yeah And then when it comes to correct recognition of valence people It were Really really close to horses like we're really good at understanding horses, which I find very interesting Um, not so good at understanding cows We don't do the cows so much but the whole issue here is that Domesticated animals those that we work with often we are more in tune with those that are wild like a wild boar as opposed to just a commercial pig We are not as much in tune with however It seemed that we were very in tune with the valence of the wild boars Which would make sense if you didn't want to be attacked by an angry wild boar Right So It's an interesting study considering cross species communication and what uh, what humans understand Whether we understand I thought that was fascinating that crap because the people were looked like more in tune with understanding goats than they were cows Yes Now cows an open book to me cow just tells you whether how the day's going Right and a goat is just just Sounds Like that they've got one I'm with you on the goat thing all the time unless unless there's like what was the mood of the goat annoyed? Oh, yeah, that's what everybody guessed. Oh Goats are always just annoyed Yes, um Yeah, so anyway mammals do we share an emotional system? Because it probably helps us out a little bit Again, this is this week in science if you are enjoying the show, please head over to twist.org click on the Patreon link if you're interested in supporting our show as an ongoing patreon Patron sponsor join our patreon community ten dollars or more a month and we will thank you by name at the end of the show There's lots of other stuff that comes In the mail if you become a patron as well as you can become part of our discord community And um, also while you're at twist.org, please consider heading over and clicking on the 2023 calendar purchasing in print or pdf download Justin tell me some stories Okay, uh, this is For the occasionally a year-long time listener, you've heard me making light of Archaeologists inclination to ascribe ritual or spiritual significance To any ancient artifact that they can't explain otherwise As though as though folks of the ancient world are somehow obsessed with nothing more than a zealots appreciation of whatever beliefs they might have had It's taken a lot of time And you wouldn't be entirely wrong in thinking that ritual and spiritual concerns existed. It's just improbable or even impractical to imagine Ancient man being dedicated so dedicated of spiritual being in every facet of their material existence that Almost every artifact of any type is given this ritual or spiritual significance Yeah Take the case of the engraved owls these small Owl idols carved into bone or wood around 4,000 of them have been discovered across the iberian peninsula to around 5,000 years ago Many have been found in tombs leading past archaeologists to ascribe ritualistic meanings to the offerings they might represent lost deities or spiritual protectors of the dead You know there's a good argument that uh because some owls are nocturnal That the owls ability to to hunt at night gives them the power to see in darkness bides them with some sort of wisdom or perception beyond normal human existence or No, you did not go deaf Justin Unmute your mic Can you Oh, I thought I had I am so sorry or Where was I or Oh, did I not say what they were yet? or So they might have been they might have been uh deities Uh, right. They've been seeing into the unseen like an owl hunting at night to the the extra perception of the owl or As is uh published in scientific reports the reexamined interpretation suggests These owl plaques may have been Children's toys They look like stuffed animals. Not at all. They look like yeah carved rocks Yeah, kind of it's gonna be rock bone wood whatever they can find So it's an interesting thing that toys are often missing from the archaeological record Yeah, almost as if the concept of child's play Well was non-existent in the ancient world And like a child playing with things hadn't been invented yet And and you can't blame the ancient parents With all the rules and culturally and spiritual activities archaeologists imagined Them to be involved in on top of the constant hunting and gathering There was likely no time to craft children's toys and That might be so Researchers provide evidence suggests suggests that the thousands of owl dolls discovered We're likely made by children The authors assessed a hundred plaques and rated them based on how many of the six owl traits they displayed Including two eyes feathery tufts pattern feathers a flat facial disc a beak and wings the authors compared these To a hundred modern images of owls drawn by children aged four to thirteen And observed many similarities between the depictions of owls Owl drawings or closely resembled owls as children aged became more skillful at the craft of representing Others point out that the presence of two small holes at the top of many plaques Was previously thought to be for stringing them to accord according to them to to be worn right for the impractical purpose of wearing owl medallion Yeah Instead they say there's there's no wear signs that would associate with that specifically instead they speculate that Those holes were there to insert feathers Local owl species have those sort of feathery tufts On uh on top of their heads Yeah And so it looks much more likely that these placements were Used to to better represent to resemble the tufts on the heads of some of the regional owl species Yeah, correct the newly discovered mass prevalence of children's toys in the region I don't know maybe give archaeologists pause next time they find a a little rattle Made of bone for honoring the dead or a small carving out of animal deity In and ask I would a child play with this and if so That might be reason enough for it to exist I I could see that happening. Yeah Kids like toys kids like toys. Are you kidding me? I think I got a 10 month old right now who has more personal possessions than I do He's already got more toys than I have things on the planet. That seems about right. Yeah Yeah And it's like that was how is that not to been the same since the ancient times? I don't know Oh, and then the last story tonight. Oh, look at those cute little drawings Yeah, last my last story the night is I brought just good news the news The new segment that dares to look under the college couch cushions of current academic research and search of positive news Loose change and the occasional unexpected surprise just good news Chardonnay edition Archaeological assessments of soil and climate in the uk have discovered that Around one fifth to even a quarter of the uk Is suitable to grow Chardonnay grapes for high quality winemaking Alex Biss a phd student who led the study said there are great some great sparkling wines produced from Chardonnay grapes already in the uk That's with the bubbles Well, but the grapes used in sparkling wines don't need as much ripening as for still wines That's the ones without the bubbles a good Chardonnay vintage is not Attained reliably in britain at present But climate change looks to sit Looks to change that and then not too distant future Thanks to global warming ideal conditions will be reached around mid-century the researcher Model considered three aspects of weather that affect quality of Chardonnay The average the mean temperature between april and september Mean minimum temperature in september the cool at night index Total rainfall between june and september and the model identified 20 to 25 percent of uk land May be suitable by 2050 for growing Chardonnay grapes Now this is there's good news in the future. We can yeah That's just different places are gonna are gonna make the wine. Yes 20 to 25 percent This is up from the current global warming assisted situation of 2 So that's quite an improvement Yeah, quoting bis without attempting an english accent, but maybe drifting a bit mid-atlantic We are not celebrating global warming which for so many is already causing major challenges to food production public health and more rather it's something we can Monitor and respond to by changing what we grow and where They used an intermediate greenhouse gas emission scenario in which climate policies Can limit global temperature rise? To between two and three degrees celsius by 2100 that i'm glad they're using that that's a very real much more realistic model than than sticking there's too many like If the ipcc if we the 1.5 if we forget it, this is better two to three Under this scenario emissions continue to rise under 20 till 2040 and then only then begin to level off So Just good news for uk and viticulturists. It'll be fun to see what other neat surprises global warming Brings us in the not too distant future Well on the other side of it, maybe some bad news for france because that means what's Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, you know, they're gonna everybody's gonna have a different silver lining This is the just goodness. Here we go. Just don't bring us down All right, I won't bring us down, but I will Maybe I'll just keep my vr headset. No, no, I will implant a neural link Thing into my head. No. No, maybe I won't after all Yeah, so uh neural link is another company run by evan musk. We have Discussed it before it's a medical device company that is developing a brain implant that what they say The hope is is that it will help paralyze people walk and cure neurological ailments However, musk's previous previous statements have been to the effect that we need to be able to Basically integrate ourselves with computers because if we can't become AI AI will destroy us so You know, whatever It's somebody forgot how to be a human being Yeah, well This company now is now on it's under a federal probe by the u.s. Department of Agriculture's inspector general at the request of a federal prosecutor and it is focusing on violations of the animal welfare act researchers within the company under whistleblower status and anonymity and others Um, there are documents and interviews with current and former employees that Reuters have Has in their possession that um musk has Been pushing the company in the same way he pushes all his companies and so as a result corners are being cut and The way that animal surgeries um and testing is being done is unfortunately leading to the death of more animals than would likely be necessary if the research were done at a slower pace with Care taken to be sure that things like the right size implant were being put into the animal Or that they knew all of they had done Not in vivo studies prior to Work out the kinks of advice before putting it into an animal The animals they use are rat's mice pigs and also primates But the issue here is the different what we're looking at is a private company And how the company is using animals for research There's no regulations on how many animals companies can use for research And there is leeway to scientists to determine when and how to use animals in experiments Neuralink has passed all of the usda inspections of the facility so these reports are coming at Out of the company itself from people who are working in the company and are concerned about the way that the work is being done Yes so musk has said that we're going to get to human trials of neuralink Very soon and he wants to get to human trials within the next six months but um because of that schedule and the The stress that everyone is under employees are concerned that there are Hack jobs quote-unquote being done last minute changes before surgeries things being shortchanged in order to meet Deadlines that increase risk to animals and you know This is something that i'm glad that the federal government is investigating because this is important. We don't want devices tested in humans That haven't necessarily passed all the bars have you know gone through studies that have been pushed too quickly So this is i think this is one of those interesting middle places between you know Venture capital startup culture and scientific research and you know how it all works, but Yeah, I think you know there are animals involved and there are ethical issues at play here and it's I don't know it's an interest it's an interesting point And I I want everyone to to know That this story is out there and then that there are Questions about the quality of resulting data from the work that is being done within the company A few months ago. I might have heard that story and thought yeah. Well, you know what hey Make all of the mistakes go ahead and push it see what happens when you put the wrong size thing And do all of that In the animal version right so that when you When if you ever get to that point where you're going to put this in a human being you've looked at a lot of things And record it all and pay attention at all. Yes And some people are uncomfortable with working with animals and any number seems to be too great for them Absolutely. I could alibi all of that But then I've seen now The mr. What do you say today was mr. Musk. Is that the fellow? he's the the ridiculous Messages he was sending to the the twitter employees About needing to work You know ridiculous hours and dedicate their existence to the company's thing and you know You don't like to take a hike or do it and they're firing the guy that made the pass codes The security guy at the building and then had to call him up and to rehire him because nobody could nobody get into the building it like like not like Before that I would have confidence like well mr. Musk seems to know what he's doing He did bad. He's got the rocket company and the rocket And that boring company is still drilling its way to the core of the earth. I believe So there's something tesla's not working much anymore. Tesla's a great car company You know guy must know what he's doing so what I doubt that he's putting any undue pressure on bill And then yeah, now there's evidence that says yeah, this this as a CEO. He can act rather erratically and recklessly and So I wouldn't I now have so much more confidence In those whistleblowers than I would without the CEO's Current previous actions right One interesting connection to all this is that previously because of the location and be In california the university of california davis does have a primate center So neural link was involved in a partnership with the university of california davis to conduct its experiments But there was a complaint there of surgeries that killed monkeys and so Uh The veterinary staff said that there were health problems caused by experiments. This was from uc davis And uh, the uc davis spokesperson said that it defended its research with neural link and said that it followed own laws and regulations, but neural link has since Taken all research in-house. It is not partnering with anybody else anymore elon has created a monkey disney land Um And they are I know it's it. It's uh, how do you push forward quickly? How do you it's not rockets? These are living beings. It's a very different. It's a you know, how do you how do you iterate and how do you do the work? at the fast pace that uh Financial progress often Requires And still do it ethically and still do it well. So there are You know, there there there are a lot of questions here And i'm glad like once again I said that the uh, the government is looking into it because government regulation of this kind of animal research is very important and it's couple eyes notice like If I was in that position of this invention and this thing I would want that brief of concept done Out of the company and I know you're like, oh, we don't want to share information, right? Yes, but yeah There'd be such a risk of Everybody who's involved in the research is paycheck relying on getting a specific result Then you could end up with a A false toddler effect Of people saying that they oh, yeah, we all looked in the box. Yeah. Yeah, everybody looked of course we did Why wouldn't we it's a job to look in the box? That's what we did even though they haven't looked in the box and then you end up with uh all this investment And it does nothing on the other hand. I have a feeling that there is a a secret uh Muskfella island somewhere where this is already being done on humans Some sort of international waters island so so it's they're gonna figure it out one way or the other They'll figure it out one way or the other but this is where it is right now and I think we've made it to the end of the show Oh, are we there? Yeah, I think I think we've done it We have come to the end the part of the show where we love to say thank you To everyone who has spent your time with us so far who has joined us for the last bit of time And I would really like to get my uh, yeah, my get my stuff all set up here so I can give my Specific thanks to patrons. They've changed an interface This is fun. Okay. I will figure this out. Get to this point. I didn't do this before the show and I should have By the way when when we do eventually Do you get those neural link things going on? Yes, people will still not be using the metaverse It still won't be necessary still not gonna be necessary. Yes, still just a complete waste of time You know, you start to get the idea that sometimes people can get lucky ones. I live in virtual reality all the time right now So All right, well, I would love to thank you all for joining us Thank you everyone in the chat rooms who has chatted and made your comments and asked your questions Thank you for being here with us those of you who are viewing live those of you are who are viewing us later Thank you for being here. Thank you to Those of you who helped make this show happen fata. Thank you so much for helping with show notes and social media identity for thank you for Recording the show and our lore and Gord thank you for helping to keep our chat rooms nice happy places to be in And rachel, thank you so much for editing the show Make sure we edit out a whole bunch of those little blips and bleeps and other things that we're going on tonight And I would love to thank our patreon sponsors Teresa smith james schaefer at richard badge kenton north coat rick lovman pierre velezarb rat john ratna swami carl cornfell Karen tausie chris wozniak dav bun veggard chef stad health snider donathan styles aka don stylo ali coffin gorev charmott raggan derek schmitt don mundas steven albaran darryl myshac stew paulik andrew swanson fredis 104 skylute paul ronovitch kevin reardon noodles jack bryan kerrington davidie youngblood grew and bob john mckay greg riley marquesson flow steve leesman aka zima ken haze christopher rapindana pierce and richard brendan minnish johnny gridley fremmey day flying out christopher drier greg briggs john atwood rudy garcia dav wilkinson rodney lewis paul rick ramus phillips shane curt larson sue doster jason olds dave neighbor eric nap e o adam mishcon kevin parochan erin luthan steve debel bob calder marjorie paul disney david silmerley patrick pecker raro tony steele and jason roberts Thank you for all of your support on patreon If you would like to support us on patreon head on over to twist.org and click on that patreon link on next week's show We'll be back this day eight p.m. Pacific time And again, hey on thursday a European time broadcasting live from our youtube and facebook channels Broadcasting live from our facebook and from twist.org slash live Oh, yeah Want to listen to us as a podcast? Just search for this week in science wherever podcasts are found if you enjoyed the show get your friends to subscribe to For more information on anything you've heard here today show notes links to stories Are available on our website www.twist.org and you can also sign up for our newsletter Woohoo Someday we'll do one and you can contact us directly email me kirsten at kirsten at this week in science.com Just in a twist menu at gmail.com or blare blare baz at twist.org just put twists in the subject line So your email doesn't get spam filtered into a future bottle of chardonnay That i'm just gonna just drink and not read the subject line of And if you uh want to get a chance to Be an experiment on musk island You can hit us up on the twitter where we are at twist science at dr Kiki at jackson fly and at blairs menagerie We love your feedback if there's a topic You would like us to cover or address a suggestion for an interview haiku that comes to in the night Please let us know We'll be back here next week and we hope that you will join us again for more great science news And if you've learned anything from the show remember It's all in your head This week in science This week in science This week in science is the end of the world So i'm setting up shop got my banner unfurled. It says the scientist is in i'm gonna sell my advice Show them how to stop the robot with a simple device I'll reverse global warming with a wave of my hand and all it is is coming your way So everybody listen to what i say. I use the scientific method for all this week in science This week in science This week in science science science science This week in science this week in science This week in science I've got one disclaimer and it shouldn't be news That what i say may not represent your views, but i've done the calculations and i've got a plan If you listen to the science you may just that understand It's the after show I have no chardonnay. I have orange flavored water Justin probably went to get coffee I don't even know what's going on anymore. How's everyone out there? Thank you for joining us for another episode of twist I hope that Blair is having a good holiday little vacation. She's going on That's good. Do I have vodka or rum? I do not No, I just have orange flavored water flavored like orange kind of It's got vitamins Or maybe no electrolytes. There we go Eric nap you got a calendar I love hearing about people getting calendars. That is fantastic Ha ha ha fada. Thank you for that hilarious gift in our discord chat What is that Amy Schumer drinking a very large glass of what looks like wine Scared Oded Blair post pictures on instagram. I haven't I haven't used instagram in a very long time. I'm afraid I've been Trying to avoid social media. However, I keep getting sucked into the twitter. Yes, and also now the mastodon I am on the mastodon if uh, would anyone like the mastodon? Oh foot and a half of snow. Yes That makes getting to the male male box very hard Eric Yeah, we got some snow here in portland, which was Wonderful, but it was only like inches made it very beautiful around here Ooh vodka or rum with a small amount of sugar is what are in law is saying Maybe with a cherry Could be very tasty. Oh, no, what did we get pie day wrong on the calendar? I know I I know I'm supposed to be interacting with people that twist on the social media And I know that's my that is my condom conundrum My life conundrum noodles got a calendar too Nice Lizzie pie day so that would be on the down loadable How did we get that? I swear I looked at things Every day is pie day. Thank you, Lauren I agree with that, but Okay, hold on Really? No, I already downloaded it. Where did it go? You know, it's it's never pie day in Europe Because it's the backwards the way they do their dates is backwards. Well, they do it From yeah, they go day month year Yes, which is logical If if yeah, if you just think about it, it's You can actually let me get it works I don't know Oh, I gotta wear a day off Wait, did we really get it? Darn it happened. What what's going on? What are you cursing about? I'm not cursing. I don't curse We put it on the round day We didn't we did we put it on March 13th instead of March 14th Okay, everybody who orders the down loadable calendar You will understand that you just get to have pie day all week that week Is it is it because it was it just get pulled from the last year's calendar. Is that what happened? No, I mean it's always 3.14, right? Yeah 3.1412 Pie the 14th of March. Yeah, but if it was on a Monday before and it's on Monday, I don't know I don't know what happened It's wrong on the printable calendar Oh No, but that means I can fix it And let people download again. So if you've already purchased it, I can make sure that's a pretty big error for a science show I mean if we wanted a science show If we were like a A pet show Then I'd be like, ah, you know Rick Loveman not sciencey folks. Thank you, but oh my gosh Oh, Eric nap. We made your birthday pie day. Yes. Eat pie. That's why we did it. That's the reason That's the reason we did it. I like Lauren's way of looking at it. Lauren Gifford errors are always more valuable. Yes, right? That's really funny. I swear I scrolled through everything and I was like no one pie day is It is a communication show that is a liberal art. It's not a math show. Thank you I don't know Well, if you order the calendar from zazzle, none of the science days are on it anyway So your printed calendar is not going to have that error. So You can write pie day on whatever day you want Do we have a solution for reducing errors? Less information Yeah, that's always a solution Good It's good So it's already I you know, I gotta go back. I uh because it's uh tomorrow where I am Yes, uh, I missed the opening Of the the new biodiversity conference That has uh started in montreal today You're today my yesterday Uh, so i'm kind of curious what the Opening statements of this will be I I'm I'm I'm a little bit After the the climate conference a little bit Suspicious that not a lot Of important stuff will happen. I think the fact that they are looking to address the biotech issue is is an important one It's this thing that I ran into a Or find out about working biotech was that I think I think what what it was is I was looking at That study we reported on of shared microbiome between bamboo eaters across the globe Yes, red panda the giant panda certain types of uh, I guess lemurs And I guess it wouldn't be lemurs. I don't know different different termites Whatever like different things that just shared microbiome Uh overlap in the the Venn diagram of all these and you thought well, okay There's something in that which should be good at breaking down Uh cellulose if not just specifically bamboo And and one of the things that was pointed out to me is like yeah the problem is these are Microbes found in animals from a whole bunch of different countries You can't just research them What do you mean? You can't just research them. Yeah, you can't use them Because legally they belong to that country. It would be the same thing It's almost like a a not cultural appropriation. What would it be? Uh Well, it's it's it. Yeah, it's biodiversity appropriation. It's by Yeah, so you can't take a soil microbe. Yeah, it's the resource of that of that country. Yeah, apparently you can't take a soil microbe from france and develop A drug in indonesia because you didn't have that's not yours Which I never thought that the you know, I get that yet countries control The sea space and the airspace above them and they have like these Boundaries that have been put on maps, but I didn't know that it included ownership of Microbial diversity on those lands all the things so so I think that's one of the things that they're looking to address is a Breaking of that law so that Research can just use whatever microbes are on planet earth Towards the goal of research. Okay, so I appreciate that perspective because yes, I think research should Move forward and we should understand more about the microbial bio biodiversity of Our planet. This is important. Where are soil microbes? What are they doing in different ecosystems? What roles do they play? What's happening there? But at the other side of it, we know that um historically you know Rich individuals countries governments you to come into other countries and just you know, they take things right? they take the rights to things and so If there are you know, if ecosystem biodiversity is essential for Sustainability and for survival. We also need to manage the use of those Life resources the animals the microbes like whatever it is we need to manage their use in research as well so You know, even in the united states if you are doing a study where you have to go collect animals you have to get a Permit to go collect You say I need this many these this many animals and you have to get a permit to be able to do that You can't just go take animals out of the wild And you might think differently about the ground but at the same time Here in the united states and in the west and in the southwest We are experiencing a massive loss of topsoil and so Do we just yeah, you don't go to get around and Yeah in the midwest right the midwest There was a study that I I looked at that I didn't do it It's what was it like something crazy like 10 to a thousand times quicker erosion Than previously anticipated from topsoils there Largely agricultural Largely agricultural and you know a lot of this stuff is you know, it's okay. It's your land You do what you want with it and you know, whatever but Even as we talked about the the tannis site at the beginning of the show that's private land and The dopoma researcher he got a lease to be able to Work on that land So there are ownership rights. There's property rights. There's you know, there's a lot. There's a lot of stuff I don't know. I hope that what what we come across that these biodiversity conferences and bringing everybody together globally to start looking at these issues is You know, how can we all cooperate and collaborate to yes make some of these studies easier but maybe also to not just have like oh White researcher from rich college university in north america going to poor area in You know ecologically rich whatever area and just doing whatever they want How about collaboration across borders with researchers that actually Increases the cultural value of the research that's happening and you know, there's so many things And it could be fair just to be fair. Yeah, most likely that scenario is going to be uh state sponsored chinese scientists Apparently that's that's where 60 70 percent of the Meaningful research is actually being done right now It's fascinating. Yeah, I don't know. I would love. Yeah, I hope that The biodiversity conference can bring us better places than the cop conference did but you know, we'll see Yeah, and one of the problems is getting somebody who's been assigned to represent a country Going to a conference that is Going to be about global issues They're like, yeah, all those global issues sound great for all of you except for where conflicts with business at home and then I'm going to be against it and everybody's going to have so many of those things that I gosh I I really hope that they figure something out because it's something like I think one of the reports is they're looking for a 30 by 30 was uh, one of the One of the articles I read where they want 30 percent of the biodiversity 20 30 Yeah, 30 percent of the biodiversity on the planet protected by 2030 is the only way we can get to uh a sustainable goal by 2050 so Good luck Good luck Yeah, I mean When it comes down to it, you know, we've got the science. We're learning new things all the time We're putting this information to use hopefully in enacting policy But in the end, you know, it is all just people working with people and trying to figure out how to live together and Survive and everybody's a bit selfish. Some people are more selfish than others you know, so that's where the politics comes into it and You know, there's the old saying that you know any compromise That you come out of where both sides feel like they you know have not gotten what they've wanted That's a good compromise Yeah If both sides feel like they've lost out that's a good compromise Rick Levin wants to know how different Christmas is in Denmark from the u.s. Well, I can tell you it starts earlier So so in In the United States Christmas season doesn't start sexually isn't supposed to start didn't traditionally start till after Thanksgiving They don't have a Thanksgiving In in Denmark And I think the harvest season is probably in july because the summer is so short so short so so So yeah, it starts pretty early It's very much what you would expect Christmas decorations everywhere Christmas music kind of stuff the traditions As as we get closer to Christmas are very Very different. They are very uh There's very specific foods that are made that aren't made in the states There's very specific regional uh, there's singing that takes place and The one that just drives me nuts. I like singing. The one that drives me nuts and that I'll never Get comfortable with is the practice of putting Lit candles on a Christmas tree fire And then a bunch of people who may or may not have been drinking Join hands and dance and sing in a circle around the Christmas tree I mean some some traditions Maybe we should all turn them just a little bit. Yeah Yeah now now to be fair, uh Denmark isn't a a very forested country Oh, what forest they had all got turned into viking ships a long time ago and got sailed over to the UK So there's not a lot of trees They've been reforesting a bit, but uh, but also a lot of houses are uh brick in concrete So maybe the fire concerns Aren't as you know, the the liberal use of fireworks in new years is one indication I got that People aren't really too concerned with fire safety It's not a very dry country. It's very wet. Yeah, it makes the conditions the conditions Yeah, they influence the culture. Oh, and there's a there is a drink that you'll see and I can't remember what it's called. Oh log It's something like that though. It's something very much like that. It's a very uh It's like a hot some kind of a hot toddy click Maybe that's what the same thing something like this Yummy I owe tibaly you got to go to tibaly for christmas. It's the little the oldest maybe second oldest amusement park in the world Pretty fun place they're all themed up for christmas Very cold. It's been snowing here the last few days We like snow And on that note with the snow um You know, I think it's time that we go and that uh Picard everyone if you haven't done it yet the christmas the christmas tradition of watching the edit from um, what was it start trek the next generation Make it so make it so make it so Make it so make it so make it so It's just an annual tradition like a christmas story Like so many other movies this short video a re-edit of grabbing little clips out of so many little episodes of star trek and Make it so Make it so I think I you've stopped making sense to me, which means either my coffee has stopped working Or it's time for you to say goodnight kiki Oh, no. Good morning, justin Good morning, justin Good night Kiki Good night, everyone. Thank you so much for joining us for another episode of this week in science It's been wonderful to talk all about all the science And i'm so glad that you were here and we'll be back again next week with a blare So I hope that you will join us once again next wednesday at 8 p.m. pacific time By our error filled digital download calendar And um, also the there's the printed one on zazzle if you haven't done that one yet But in the meantime get that digital one quick. It's the collector's item. It's all going to change Ah, boa noite. Yes Ciao bello Buon nuit We will see you Next week bon cement. Stay safe. Stay healthy and stay curious. Let's see.