Hello everyone, welcome to the Jenkins Weekly Infrastructure Team Meeting. Today we are the 20th of December, that's the last meeting of the year. Around the table we have myself, Damien Duportal, Hervé Lemeur, Mark White and Kevin Martins. Let's get started with the announcement. So the new weekly 2.383 has been released, change log approved, checklist in progress. Thanks Mark for confirming. We haven't deployed it yet on our infrastructure, neither checked for the docker image we'll do after the meeting. But that should be good, I don't think the change log was used on this one, so yeah, it should be okay. So reminder, no team meeting next week, no team meeting next week. Let's see each other next year. That's the mandatory joke for the 2 weeks before end of year every year. Do you have other announcements folks? Oh yes, yes, yes, there's a webinar today for webinars today to launch the Jenkins project in Google Summer of Code. Oh, nice one. And calling it a webinar is a bit of a stretch, it's actually a Zoom meeting. But a webinar is a good way to describe it as any. We'll actually just be using a Zoom meeting. We're being a little bold this time and hoping that we don't get Zoom bombed. Crossing finger then. Nice one, so good luck for the webinar. That will be a lot of talented people there I'm sure. Do you have other announcements? Just a note about the first week of January. I think everybody will be as well. So, Stephanie, Kevin, I'm not sure if you will be off this week. Marc will be there. I'll be there. Yeah. And I think Kevin's Kevin, I think you're planning to be in the first week of January. Yeah, I'll be here. I'm only off next week. So, there is one more announcement. The Git plug-in and the Git client plug-in are preparing for a major version change. And there's been a request by the Git plug-in maintainer me to have people help test it. So, version 4 and version 5 request for preparing that and various thread in community. Yeah, and what I'm trying to do the best job I can to be sure that it's reliable, compatible, etc. But much better if we have more people saying, yeah, it looks okay to me too. We can start using it on Infra-CI. What do you think? I'm not sure I'd use it. Actually, Infra-CI would be fine. I'm not sure I'm ready to go with anything like ci.jankins.io yet because we don't like to put pre-release on ci. ci.jankins.io but Infra, yeah. We did it numerous times for the pipeline plug-ins announcement using incremental on ci.jankins.io. The goal was to reproduce issues that were only on i-load or specific cases. Good. I mean, that would make sense. The post on community.jankins.io includes the entries for plug-ins.txt for incrementals already. So, all you have to do is cut and paste. So, that's really great then. If you're willing to use it there, I can then watch to see if there are any surprises. There is no problem if you do it during the two incoming weeks. If it's announced, there is no problem if it's announced on the mailing list. And you say for the four next hours, we are going to deploy the Git plugin and then we roll back to stable. You can do a brown out, is that the wording? Yes, yes. Okay, good. So, that would be a reasonable place for me to submit the poll request to the plug-ins.txt file for Infra ci. And then I can watch it once it's merged, see how does it go, et cetera. Okay, thanks. I'm not yet, I don't know that it'll be today. Today's kind of busy, but... Locker, gently, weekly. Plug-ins.txt. Okay. Okay. That's all for now announcement. So, next week, even if there is no team meeting, XLTS will be 11 janvier 2003. I'm not aware of any security release. Event. And yeah, next major event is the devox. And we have first them before. And the webinar, as we said. Okay. Anything on the calendars announcements? No. Okay, so let's proceed. What did we do last week? That is closed. First of all, Mark, thanks for the fix and for about the Javadoc. I confirm it works as well on CHNKins and on Trusted where it's deployed. So, Mark pushed a fix on the Javadoc builder that under the case that we had with the devops plugin that has been released for the first time. And we don't know why, but it generated an empty jar file for the Javadoc. I assume everything was done manually. So, the problem is that it was breaking the Javadoc generation. So now there is a catch in the code of the Javadoc generator to under empty zip files. So now we are able to update again Javadoc. Good news. It was on the latest LTS or something with the latest baseline as it was on the previous issues. So thanks, Mark. So Damien, I actually had a question about that one if you're okay with me asking you a question before you go on. So one of the things that job does is it creates a 600 megabyte archive and saves the archive with an archive artifacts. I believe that means it writes it to the controller, and over half the total execution time of the job is spent doing the creation of that of that archive, the tar process, because it's using a B zip correctly to compress the thing. So, for any compelling reason for us to save that artifact, I'm prone to say, leave it alone and just admit that take delete the archive step completely, and admit that if somebody needs it will put it back, or maybe parameterize it with the default parameter being off. Well, and see if you look at the next step down, the next step down is where it gets shipped off to the blob storage, where it's actually displayed. Okay, and that for me is a very reasonable thing to do. Shipping it to blob storage is perfectly sensible. On ci.jenkins.io, we don't want to do that because that requires credentials, right, and, and correctly it should require credentials. I was thinking we could, I could netlify it, or we could do something else but it felt like spending half the time of the job, creating a compressive file that no one reads is kind of wasteful. Any guidance there and it's okay if you just say no mark stop worrying about trivial things. Is it the SH step or the archive artifact steps that takes so much time? It's the tar step. It's the SH step. Okay. Proposal. We have, we recently worked with the steps generators. That generates also a website based on the source. And with Stefan and Adrien, we discussed that the archive part should be kept at least on the principle branch only on ci.jenkins.io. That will mean we would have the infra is trusted else. If infra is not trusted, meaning if it's run on ci.jenkins.io or whoever wants to build it and the brand, it's not the principle and it's the principle branch. Then we keep that step only on master but not on pull request. So pull request will give you a quick feedback. But having that on main branch would permit to the contributor to see the resulting artifact file. What's the blockster? The infra is trusted blockster step. What is it uploading? Good point. Good point. As far as I know it is not right, it's relying on blob transfers natural ability to do our sync style only publish things that have changed. And blob transfers, our sync style publish only what's changed means we only get updates on pages that actually got altered. There's a good point that are based on the laying there. If the deployment on production only do a kind of her sync like blob Xifer is the same between two sources, then it means that we don't need to first zip with star visit 2 and then zip it a second time to send it to the controller. We could just remove that part and change the archive artifact to only archive the data site. Ah, right. Okay. And that, that then would allow archive artifacts to do the, well, but won't that then create a lot of small files in the artifact. It's a zip file, so you don't have to. Okay, okay. So we list artifacts and it will it will package them for us. Okay, good. I'll work on this separately then thanks. Sorry for the side trip. Thank you very much for the guidance. I like that. The first point was, it's okay if it's only on the primary branch that we do the archive. And second is archive artifacts doesn't really need us to construct the compress zip file first, we could let archive artifacts do all that work. Absolutely. If I'm doing double work there. There is a good opportunity here to also switch to declarative given how simple that pipeline is. I don't see the value of scripted, which means you could absolutely check what we did for the step generators, and you can have almost the same pipeline. Great. Thank you. Good. Good pointer. So step generator has done the transition to declarative. And you've, you've applied those things already. I can use that. Thanks very much. So you are very, is it what we were asking or did I missed. And we could be avoided on beers. Next subject, thanks survey, but so thanks to a team Alex, and, and the both of them for walking on updating a lot of the ruby dependencies used for Jenkins i your website, which includes some repositories such as ASCII doctor Jenkins extensions, required renovate, which is a kind of dependable to update CLI alternative, which does things in the between. So it's easier for them to use renovate and they asked the infra team to install it on the GitHub organization, which we did but only focused on the repositories that require renovables. So now Jenkins data.io has also renovates. I saw requests from giving a comment on one of his requests explaining why he wanted to get the right test from an PKG for his node module for his web component for the Jenkins value. Oh, yeah. That's one point gone with renovate, I think. Keep in mind for. That's a good point. So the thing is dependable is clearly the most efficient, but it's scope is really narrow. It's able to track way more dependencies, it provide a nice pull request way more. That's the most useful, I think of the free and update CLI requires more maintenance, but it's way more powerful, you can do things more complicated. So it depends, most of the time, going for renovate will help a lot. I'm mentioning that because Mark, I saw that you did pull request today about updating bluish and Maven version and some tutorials on Jenkins.io. That will be worth checking if renovable update CLI couldn't help you on that part by opening pull request automatically when there is a new Maven version or bluish version. Yeah, go ahead. Excuse me. I was wondering if it's possible to have a global variable for specific version available for every document in Jenkins.io. So technically, yes, in practice in real life, don't even think about it because of the amount of tools that are implied to generate Jenkins.io. If it was pure ASCII doctor or pure Ugo, that will be. Even having the version that's in the under the other definition. There has been more than 50% that traded during the past six years. Trust me. Okay, that's a good thing. If you find a way to do it, maybe some of the past constraints are gone and I'm not aware of that. But it's not easy. So if you want to try it, please do, but be aware that you might end up on something like oh my why so much. Yeah, okay, because it was, it was the same kind of thing you suggested. Yes. So what I'm suggesting is that it's part, it's most of the time it's you have a kind of scope per page or per tutorial. But since ASCII doctor is able to have variables, if you are able to at least move the variables on top of the ASCII doctor source page, that might already be the case, I'm not sure. So, then we could use Renovabot or Update CLI. Update CLI, I'm sure it will be able to using a search and replace pattern it will work. I use it for ASCII doctor itself. I don't know for Renovabot, worth checking though. Actually, I believe there's even a ticket raised in the Jenkins.io, an issue raised in the Jenkins.io issue list that we need to automate more things in that those three are three examples there are five or six others. So if you are selling to this issue, if you will find again, can you copy? That's, but I just want to say it's not infrastructure topic. Sorry, I raised it, I moved the scope but yeah. Next topic. So the maintenance migration of repo Jenkins.io was successful past Sunday. So we didn't have any issues, so that was perfect, nothing to do. It looks like based on what you saw on what Daniel saw that it's clearly faster than before. Like at least twice, the build time when downloading artifact are clearly better. So maybe we could, we might, we might use way more bandwidth per month now thanks to that. That will be an annoying consequence, but no, it's still a good thing. Yes, so now we are back to decrease bandwidth. We will have a meeting with Gifrog later today, Mark. Just to be sure, I assume it will be just to summarize before end of year. I don't have anything else about that, we have question points, anyone to underline about that migration. So the next step for us will be ask Gifrog support account and see if we have access to the portal. So I'm sure they will give us direction later today. Forgot username password account not found. As usual, someone open an issue for an account that doesn't exist and then never answer. So closed as not done, even though we ask question. CD failure on SM API plugin. I assume RPU. Temporaire. There was a lot of King Github error last week. Like the commit preference missing. Yes, that's true. So issues on Github, that's made the, that require that the GSC click in that case had to wait for five hours. But the RPU repository permission of data runs should run every three hours successfully to update a token that is only valid for four. So five hours means if you have the token of that is age of five hours, that will be refused by artifactory. So you can fix them. So thanks to Daniel for helping on that point. And finally, Jenkins.io components. So you assume it's given. Yes. Giving created a new repository to or to us to the web components used on Jenkins.io published to npm. For that it was for localizing is Jenkins components. Not for the creation and for the legalization. To the inclusion in the crowd in. Look at the type of issue. They could look at the type of issue. I'm sorry, that makes no sense for me. The crowd in label because it's a crowd in 12. It's for the integration. Into crowd in. It has nothing to do. He created an. Blanc. Blanc issue. He didn't use any template, but it was for integrating Jenkins.io component into crowd in. Okay. Okay. So nothing for us. It was just. They were just using your DL bisque. Perfect. Thanks for the explanation. Work in progress now. Award about EKS. I had to recreate one of the case cluster yesterday and spend all my day doing that. Because without further warning AWS change some default parameters of the case cluster. They suffered from that while trying to upgrade the major version of the terraform module that broke things. That made the default clusters are now private by default. So you have to explicitly change the default. That's a change on both the module and the case.  So I had to recreate it from scratch. Everything is redeployed. It's integrated. I just did that the certificate on repo dot AWS dot Jenkins dot io, the local artifact caching proxy. That's the only application on that cluster. That's why I want to add. That application is now working running, but without a valid certificate. I have to check on that one. More we are trying to use AWS EKS for something else than ephemeral cluster. The more we have issue on waste time. So at the moment in time, maybe it might be worth it to use a local machine instead of that. But yeah, we'll see. Just that's why there was a suggestion at the beginning. We chose to use Kubernetes because we want the caching proxy to be the same on every cloud where we have a Kubernetes cluster. But that might be worth it having a virtual machine instead. I've opened an issue and I'm going to update the issue with all the pull request and commits I did and changes. So it will be auditable afterwards. But I didn't have time to do it in real time yesterday. So work for today and tomorrow for me. Consequence on CI Jenkins io that was only working with digital ocean. So it was, it had a huge build queue this morning due to that, but now it's back to normal. A new issue. So that one I keep for next iteration. Yes. A new issue. I haven't looked at it. Just took it to. Yes. I didn't have time to ask this person if he tried to log in account. We have to look at it for the next iteration. Yes. Don't worry about resolution during the making. Because that might be an issue. That might be RPU. That might be an issue on the user side. So just to mention it that it will be moved to the next iteration. Artifact caching fail on digital ocean and AWS. So an AWS now for sure. No, it's on the free provider. It's also on Azure. I didn't take to collect it. Just I've just disabled. Disabled. I've set the available provider global settings to none. So it's a build plugin. Use the report at Jenkins. CI.org by default every time while I look into it. Okay. Proposal Airways to keep it ACP disabled for the coming weeks. Because the priority for us is to fix the Azure version. And we need to finish the work relative to the networks and the cluster migrations. So is there anyone against keeping it disabled for now and moving that issue back to the backlog until we have finished the network and cluster migration stuff. No disagreement for me. Let's disable it globally for now. Okay. And put it in the next week. Yep. Add Windows Server 2022. So Stefan was able to configure CI Jenkins I.O. To have our first agent template for spending virtual machine with Windows Server 2022. The goal is to allow building a new Docker image declination for that Windows server. Because as a reminder, you cannot run Docker image based on Windows Server 2022 and 2019. And you can do the other way around. So we need to maintain both at the same time until we don't need 2019. So that issue is not closed, but we'll move to the backlog. As soon as we will be able to answer to the contributor on the Jenkins CI Docker images. A pull request has been open. I need to try one time that that pull request build with the new label. It's only Windows dash 2022. So it's an explicit label. If it works, then we can tell the user they can continue working on their pull request. And that issue will go back to the backlog. Main reason is because right now. We weren't able to find a way to install the official Windows Open SSH on Windows 2022 on AWS. Which means that our system is not able to fail all the time. And Windows Server, both versions on AWS take now one hour and a half to update themselves. That's a nightmare. So right now 2019 is on Azure and AWS for us and 2022 is only on Azure. So Stefan propose, let's see how it's going. But maybe we might have to only keep Azure as a provider of Windows Server virtual machines, at least for the upcoming month. Because we are wasting too much time on this build. So that one, I'm finishing trying with the end user and then I move it back to the backlog. Hello newcomers. We have two persons joining. Javanet cash is no longer considered by the update center. I've reopened that issue, which is about Javanet's two repository on Artifactory, which upstream is gone. There are at least two local repositories. One that I did two days ago and one which is more ancient. They are private, not visible by default. But both of these have all the artifacts. We can, we should check exhaustively, but I checked the checksum of the global repository and it looks really good. So at least if that repository is gone by accident, then we could absolutely add it on our tree. So we'll wait for Daniel to give us history when he's back from holidays, so January. But yeah, we have at least three copies and we have the old Artifactory instance migrated Sunday as a backup of backup. I wasn't able to find a way to download these artifacts yet. Because all of these repositories are private and marked as blacked out. So you cannot see on the Artifactory front end anything. It say no item, even though they are. So that issue is open. So we keep track of it. That's important. And I'm waiting for Daniel. So no work expected from anyone until Daniel is back. Any question? Your turn. So close the new Kubernetes cluster private gates that aims at hosting in fraud.ci and release CI once everything is okay. What's the status of that new? The cluster is up and running. I've deployed on it yesterday. All services. Not directly for Jenkins. And today I've deployed a controller on it. With all on fraud.ci Jenkins.io configuration except search job definition. It seems to be working, but I can't access the instance. I can access. I can ping the machine from the. On the VPN machine. And I'm working with SSH, but going from my brother with Austin tree on my machine doesn't work. We are working on it. So good news is. I had to change a credential name in my factorization. For having to have a CI instance. You know, and file a config. And he didn't break the current on fraud. It was an error we were showing a bit. It's nice. Nice work. So now you will have to get your hands dirty with IP tables rules. I'm sorry for you. I will try to help as much as possible. So which means as soon as we are able to fix that VPN issue and that we can reach a fraud. We will communicate about migrating the current infrascii to that new instance. So then we can trash the temp dash private gates cluster. That's the next step, which means they might be interruptions when generating the monthly weekly reports when deploying Jenkins.io privilégialisation site, etc. So we will have to communicate on status Jenkins.io. And IRC. We also plan to do a full migration, full clean migration, meaning we will back up the Jenkins home and migrate it to the empty instance that they created. Because last time we migrated infrascii, we didn't care about the build history. We do now because there are other jobs in that instance in that controller that are not infra related or not directly to our tooling. So that will be your next step perv. Nice job because yeah that was a lot of shadow walk, especially in the network area, Terraforma area, Azure and IPv4 routing. So really cool to have that part done by someone else than me. I'm really happy for that outcome of it. That's really nice job. About that issue, recreate network to think of a lap issue. That one is open, but you'll go back to backlog. Or we can close it and open a tiny issue. The last item should be a VPN for the public network. Last step, VPN VM for the new public network. So that's why I propose a new issue, because the network part for me is finished. Even though we haven't validated the IPv6 port. So my proposal is rename the issue and create two sub issue one for validating IPv6 later because we will have to do it. Because the huge work there has been done and the VPN VM is not required for the public network. Because we can use the private VPN to reach through the peering to the public back ends. But we will need that new scenario for a new infrastructure contributor. Such that for instance, Adrien Lacharpentier, He need access to the public cluster for the public scoring application. But we don't want him by default. There is no reason for granting access to the private area within France CI or release CI. So the idea is to have VPN that are aimed at people that should operate or at least read access to services on the public network. And that one is not mandatory today, because what is mandatory is administrator having access to everything. And people who are currently accessing release CI for releases today should have the same access, which is a private part that we are working on. So if it's okay for you, Hervé, I will create the two issue and we consider the current one done because you did the scope of the issue that was creating brand new networks managed as code by Terraform as your net repository. And a new VPN so same set of features we have today so for me work is done. Is that okay for you, did I miss the managing issues. There has been now an issue opened by giving about netlify for Jenkins components. I need to check he created the initial handling, we'll have to look at it for the next iteration. Assume, we need a website deployment somewhere on netlify what is choice. Yes. We need a token from GitHub app or. It's the bot token. Yeah, we'll need to operate. That should be a quick one. GitHub app for plug-in if coring. That has been a request by Adrien. I will postpone this one when he's back from holidays. To switch the plug in scoring application from a GitHub token to a GitHub app. The challenge we will have to face that will be present also for Jean-Marc when collecting metrics and other scenarios like this one will be. I'm not sure what is the policy for the administrator of the Jenkins CI GitHub organization, we are not admin, at least not me not Hervé. What is the policy when they install a GitHub app for managing thousands of repository. In the case of Adrien, the GitHub app should only be able to run on the plug-in dash something repository. I don't see all three. We are manager of the application on Jenkins CI. But an admin has to validate the request. Ok, so maybe it's our job to automate. I want to install on that set of thousands on something repository. I'm not sure why. I don't know if there are private repository in Jenkins CI organization. It's not to respond, but I would have asked on the installation on all repository. The person who will say yes and no is Vadek, the security officer. And if I would be Vadek, I would say I don't care, you have to partition the access. And I know it's a pain, but that's too risky. If there is any private repository on Jenkins CI, if there is anything that should not be done. If you don't have to, you don't have to access. I don't know why you were saying automate this process. Because we will have to watch for new repository. Exactly. We will need a process that say there is a new plug-in something. Repository permission updater could be one of the areas that could help. Because the goal of that repository and build associated is to list all the plugins and do stuff with that list. So that could be a way to automate it with the current tooling. Because we are not alone having that kind of challenge. So if it's okay, I'll propose to postpone this one for January. We have some Jenkins mirrors using wrong media type. So it was fixed by OSU-SL, as we said last week. And we need to update the Apache configuration on archive Jenkins. I totally forgot about this one. That should be quite quick. Sorry? No, I was about to say we didn't have time to look at the one. Same for the mirror start report wrong results. The goal is to check the status of the disabled mirrors within that time to check. And realign Jenkins. So that one was posed until the shift log migration. So I need again to check if my setup is still there. If it's still buggy or if it's still eventually consistent or not. I hope it should not. And my next step is to try to build a plugin with a proxy to my test area. That is completely a different set than what is doing right now. That's the worst case scenario, but I have to test to start testing somewhere. And that means I will have a perfect setup to force using everyone on the same repository. To test plugin builds with the test. That's all for me. On the work in progress. For the rest of the backlog, we didn't add new issues. Planning for supported GDK that one is on Stefan and is in holidays. So it's postponed for two weeks. I don't see new issues on the bottom. While I'm looking at the recent issues that could have been opened. Do you have other topics that should be mentioned to be walked during the upcoming two weeks? One, two, three, no. Okay. Okay. So I think that's all for today. I'm going to stop the recording. So for everyone following us on recording, see you in two weeks. And for the other, just wait a minute. So bye-bye.


First of all I'm very pleased to be here. This is the first meeting for the African Development Bank and I would say that what is so unique about this gathering is many things. First of all the diversity of members from various industries, the financial industry, the telecom industry. Also what's very unique about it is the topics that are being discussed into operability is on the table and it's being today is looked at as one of the major discussion topics, a major condition for better financial inclusion. At the African Development Bank we support into operability in various regions in Africa so I'm glad that this focus group is discussing deeply on it and has produced some documentation extremely relevant so I think this group is very unique in many ways. Today's 350 million people unbanked to live in sub-Saharan Africa and I think the work that has been done by the focus group will help a great deal. When I take the example of consumer protection, oversight, frameworks between the regulator, the two regulators financial and telecom, when they sit down and look at the issues together to lighten the KYC regulation many people lack identification in Africa and I think one of the new regulation that is being suggested by this group if implemented will help leapfrog and include many of these unbanked.


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It is a three Three there you go top congrats Patriots Aziz Ojalari rookie ticket base autograph And a Kenneth gain well a rookie ticket green pulsar auto Number to 25 You go Eagles nice You're actually the Patriots on that card there from the red white and blue very solid hits Very solid hits Yeah, no problem Jim crushing it man crushing it season ticket Chopra rookie ticket Bateman Got a season ticket Deandre Hopkins there still 175 And another one. It's a round numbers orange this time Mack and Najee. That's 14 of 50 One two three top four five six bottom. Good luck It is a five Bottom there you go Steelers Raiders Trayvon morrick rookie ticket base auto and Cornell Powell rookie ticket Silverado you go it did go to the Steelers. So sure enough. They got split up Sure enough they did get split up on those two different inserts there. Yeah, exactly the move exactly the universe is fair You always hope for that, but you just never of course know we go here we go Season ticket Deandre Swift rookie ticket Davis Mills Got a red Jonathan Taylor to 175 Colts and And Fletcher Cox and Jalen Hertz on the X's and O's pink to 75 All right on to the autographs here number to 30 49ers Tolino who funger Tolano who funger to 30 Niners. There you go. That's green pulsar rookie ticket auto And then Elijah Moore rookie ticket base autograph for the Jets You go Jets All right, here we go here we go a couple boxes remaining season ticket George Kittle rookie ticket Eli Mitchell It's a silver George Kittle and MVP contenders Lamar Jackson Blue to 99 Nice Perennial contenders this time number to 75 Harrison bar or excuse me Harrison Smith Nice one you go Vikings and for the Jets rookie ticket base autographs Zack Wilson boom Great base auto Congrats Jets will mag that Sick rookie ticket base autograph There you go Nice hit. We got three boxes to go. Let me grab a little water Continue we got chronicles coming up guys as well as NT. Yeah, I almost said Harrison Barnes. Yeah, I Don't know why I was thinking basketball for whatever reason It was also a purple team Harrison, so maybe that's how it happens Harrison Barnes played for the Kings for a long time Here's the Smith Vikings But yeah, kind of fun All right, here we go season ticket Kenan Allen Rookie ticket Mack Jones. It does have some damage on that one. We're gonna send an empty box with it And Patriots you will be able to go about that if you do want to get it replaced then Aaron Donald there to 99 season ticket and to 99 Matthew Stafford winning tickets. Nice Grab that quick All right, Washington football team with the Dax Milne rookie ticket base auto Dax Milne redemption time Trevor Lawrence rookie ticket RPS autograph boom Jakes there you go. What a case this was holy Congrats Jakes Like four five six really nice QB autos There you go Jakes Great redemption there That'll be fantastic when it comes in Favorite pride to rip Really really tough. I mean sports only okay sure That doesn't hurt a little bit. I Mean if it's not like breaking Like if I'm not live on camera probably like Allen and Ginter or something like that But I also like prism a lot Regardless of the sport multiple different sports of prism even some of the not popular ones like WNBA and so on On camera, I don't know that makes it a lot different because you kind of have to Be mindful yet still Show cards for the right times Probably something like no war basketball There's a lot of really cool cards and something like that and it's like a higher end product still So on camera probably something like that It's how we killed in 99 and a winning ticket silver elvin Kamara Nice Yeah, I'm a big fan of Alan and Ginter though big big fan, especially it's like an off-camera rip rookie ticket there Tyson Campbell you go I Think so the move I think so the one-time punishment And Kyle Trask here rookie ticket red autograph to 99 for the box. Awesome. There you go box 1099 also like tops triple threads quite a bit. It's a pretty sick product as well On camera or off camera And nothing wrong with ripping Alan and Ginter on camera But it's just you got a lot of stuff to be like checking forward stuff like that You can really take your time and just kind of like laugh at some of the cards off camera Burrow there's always random names and random different like sports and Athletes talents really crazy stuff Rookie ticket there on the Kyle Trask to 30. I mean, yeah, probably something like that little yep and MVP contenders to 99 Dak Prescott Yeah, kind of tough to beat something You don't even have to protect it Redemption Jalen Phillips there rookie ticket auto dolphins you go Dolphins that can also be kind of a tough product to rip though like in terms of for a customer because it's very like You hit or you miss so it's not necessarily the easiest in that way though In a Cornell Powell rookie ticket like blue autograph to 99 There you go chiefs dolphins All right guys, it's gonna recap going here the hits. Thanks again so much Grab little water and we'll do the recap, but yeah, it's tough to beat something like that But there's a lot of um, there's a lot of really fun products to rip that are in that, you know Like ten or even like five to like 20 cards of box range Like I mentioned with the triple threads in the war and stuff like that All right, here we go Cornell Powell Jalen Phillips Redemption Kyle Trask Tyson Campbell tax mill Pereno contenders Harrison Smith Elijah Moore Tolino Funga Got a Kenneth Gainwell Aziz O'Jallari the Schwartz RPA Cameron McGrone Daniel Jones on the Silver Veteran ticket Cameron McGrone crack dice Javante Williams based in Tommy Tremble Redemption's rookie ticket RPS auto Trevor Lawrence Nice one there and a Zach Wilson rookie ticket base autograph There you go. Thanks again so much for joining everyone really hope you enjoyed number 34 pick your team style


And Michael Kreil is an expert for data analysis and data visualization, and he very intensely looked into how it came about that people that you thought would be very rational, out of a sudden radicalized up to right-wing extremism. Two years ago he gave a talk about fake news and filter bubbles, and a lot of the things he's going to tell right now is going to point to that. So take a look at that previous talk and have a big hand for Michael. Yeah, good morning. Well, I made a trap for you. I wrote internet about my talk so that people show up at all. Actually, it's about racism in society that I want to talk about. So two years ago I gave a talk about what effects we find on the internet and filter bubbles, echo chambers, fake news and so on. And a lot of people from extremism research, from social sciences, psychology, political sciences talk to me. How could you explain that, what is happening in the internet there? And is there the cause or is it an effect of something? And the bad news is, well, I think it's a symptom, and it's not the cause of it. And in the previous two years I have looked at several research projects. I've looked at right-wing extremism and racism and how does it interconnect to certain media. Well, mainly the question is what effects are relevant and what's the cause of them and what's the effect, so how to tell those apart. So to take an example with what bullshit topics you have to deal with is the topic of social bots that would radicalize society. I gave a talk in Bulgaria on the OpenFest, the army that never existed, the failure of social bot research. And there's an URL and my lecture notes are on GitHub. The URL is there. So I hope the talk is online in the next couple of days. It's in English and it's a summary who is doing research and on what catastrophic methods of research all the research is built upon. The research is contradictory. There is very, very strange opinions on that and it's bullshit all over and it's accepted by scientific papers, journals. Well, it's rubbish. If you look at the topic of racism and see how it does interact with Internet, we have to talk about what is racism. And I've found if I talk to people about racism, there is different ideas what racism actually is. One reason for that is that it's a very complex phenomenon. It has to do with sociology, political sciences. And we are doing research right now. Up to this day, we are finding new interconnections and we find it's even more complicated than we thought it was. And that means in social sciences there's different views on what is racism actually and what is it not. And I know it's annoying, but it's important to look at the discourse. Normally if I talk to people, okay, it's based on theory of race where you divide people into groups to justify violence from top to bottom. You think about violent youth. But, you know, the term was coined in the beginning of the 20th century, but it's really old. So if you look to the antique times, you would say foreigners are barbarians. And slave trade was also racism-based. And African people were thought of as being underprivileged. And so there was prevalent racism for thousands of years, even if it wasn't called like that. Saying it's a racial theory of race, well, that's not really true, because the actual, this theory as a scientific discipline was not a valid thing to deal with. And so it was rather a racism of the scientists instead of being a theory of race. And it was a pseudo-science thing to legatimate racism. So we can do away with this. It's not just separating people into races. That is not something that we can base anything on. And of course we know that even Nazis would not do in DNA tests. They would just go to ethnic origin, to your citizenship, to your religious beliefs. That's something where you would separate people into groups. Even violence is not a central element of racism. It's also... And we can see the basic concept is about using particular markers to define groups. And you're using that to claim that particular groups are inferior and to essentially put them down. As a graphic example, I made a table with different lines. In horizontally, you have different types of discrimination. And vertically, you have different markers based on which things are being... You can be discriminated. Sometimes you would just talk about racism. As part of racism, some people say insults are... In my opinion, all of this is racism. So it reaches all the way to positive stereotypes. And that's something that we've also known for quite a while. This is also written down in the Basic Law from 1949, which says nobody can be discriminated against or treated preferentially based on their gender, whether from their race, their language, the place of their origin or their religious belief or their political belief. There's a similar agreement on this definition in the UN Convention for the elimination of racism. All of these are forms of racism that includes the positive parts. And so one thing that's notable is that the German Basic Law also names gender as a basis for discrimination. Because if we go back to the slide about the definition where we say, well, what if people are divided into inferior and superior groups based on their gender, that's basically sexism. And then we can see that there's a surprising intersection between racism and sexism because the mechanism is basically the same. And you can expand this even further. I made an entire list. There's antisemitism, sexism, racism, antisemitism, Islamophobia, xenophobia towards people from Arab, classism against people from particular parts of society, ageism against people who might be older and who cannot get a land of credit anymore, homophobia, transphobia, ableism. All of these are important topics. Lookism or even there's discrimination based on someone's first name. There's serophobia against people who have HIV-AIDS. There's such a thing as linguist-cesism, which is something that I noticed in myself because for a long time I didn't take people seriously who had a Saxonian accent because I only knew that from comedians. But once you start putting yourself into the place of someone who actually lives in Saxony, and for them it's just the dialect, then for them it's discrimination. Discrimination against people who are homeless, discrimination against people who are out of work, these different types of discrimination are emphasized in different ways and have different degrees of strength. Just because someone has a first name that it gets discriminated against doesn't experience the same degree of discrimination or danger as someone who is threatened with death or murder. Professor Heidmeier, a German sociology professor came up with the idea of animosity towards groups of people, which is basically based on group markers. But I agree obviously that there are different degrees here, but I think it's important to understand the different mechanisms behind it that are essentially the same. But I also think that even Heidmeier's term of group-based animosity is also not the best term because these groups don't actually exist. The people who are perpetrating racism and who are the racists, these people don't actually know each other and they're just put into a group with each other. So even the group itself is a social construct.  It's hard to say that they're expressing animosity towards a particular group. So there's another new term that I really like, which is the generalizing construction of a rejection. This is the most German term that is in this talk. So basically you generalize about a group of people and then you reject them after you construct the group based on what you reject them. This is something that you might also recognize from your own thinking. If you don't study for school, you will have to get other people's trash or you will have to clean other people's houses. I got another example. All cops are bastards. That's also one of those generalizing rejection constructs. Because you generalize about cops, you say all of them are bastards regardless of whether they were born in a wedlock or not. So for example, there are policemen and members of the police who are against police and against other structural problems in the police. They are also being rejected by a statement like this. This is something that you have to realize. Then there is structural racism as well, which also works without racists. Here's one example that you may know. There is a person who needs a white paper towel to get soap from a soap dispenser because when he tries to do it with his own hand, it doesn't work. Because the light sensor seems to have a problem with the color of her skin. The engineers who built it obviously aren't racists. They didn't do that on purpose or deliberately. They did that because they just didn't think of it. Maybe there's also a mechanism of structure. It's also a measure of structural racism that there are only white engineers who are working on this, for instance. I'd also never thought of this. For example, when I'm getting a plaster, that the plaster doesn't have the color of my skin and what does it look like for people with darker skin. There is a person who was walking around and I was like, oh my God, I didn't even think of how happy people might be to get a plaster in the color of their own skin. One thing that I encounter repeatedly is that I can go to the Bullen Museum, I can see the bust of Nefertiti, I can pay 250 and can see a very important, old treasure from Egyptian history. A friend of mine who's actually from Egypt asked me, I asked him, what do you have to do as an Egyptian to go see your own cultural treasure? And then he showed me documents from the German Embassy. Basically, the documents that Egyptians need to fill out and submit. So they need to have a passport, they need to buy a biometric passport photo, then proof of health insurance, proof of hotel reservation, written proof of their flight ticket, chronological information on their bank accounts and the amount of money that they have access to, written proof of employment and for how long they've been employed there. So the list is even longer, I just couldn't keep up, but this is racism. Here is a range of other examples, especially researched and published by TATS, a German newspaper based in Berlin about people who have trouble finding apartments. The first example is by Mr. Ming Li who applied to different apartments in Berlin who next time essentially just applied as Leon Kunze with the same paperwork otherwise and suddenly he was able to get an apartment. So again, that's something that you can also look into and research systematically. Here's a team that looked into job offers and sent two applications to each job offer, one with the Turkish name and one with the German name and then looked at how many callbacks people got and these different experiments gone. You can kind of look at whether that differs between different sectors, whether that differs between based on the size of the company. But here is basically the biggest example is that it's 50% more likely to get a callback if your name sounds German. I didn't know that I hadn't ever even thought about this because I didn't have to think about this type of discrimination because I don't have a Turkish last name when I apply for a job in Germany. That's also something that you can extend to sexism. The question of media, how often the media discuss where a perpetrator or a suspect comes from. There is a study by the Media Service for Integration which is a German organization which looked at how newspapers report on suspects. On the left side you see where people are from based on the police statistics. So 30% are foreigners, 70% are German. In terms of reporting, especially on TV, you can tell that even though only 30% of perpetrators are marked as potential foreigners, Germans are completely underrepresented. So only in three cases do media reports actually say that someone is German. So here is structural racism as a model. I've taken 10 Germans and 10 migrants and so we can see that Germans are underrepresented even though maybe one in 10 is a criminal in both groups of population. But the core problem is that non-criminal migrants are basically invisible in our society. So if I go to the media and want to inform myself about media, about criminals and criminality amongst migrants and asylum seekers, then that obviously leads to a skewed picture because I will only read about crimes being committed by migrants and not hear about any of these other people. A while back I was having a beer with a jurist who spontaneously used the term of structural incitement of hatred. Because for instance if someone says all asylum seekers are all of you, these are criminals, that's incitement of hate. But if you only talk about migrants who are criminals and that's structural incitement of hate. Some examples of racism from my own childhood.   That's deeply racist. So the question is, is this about children or is the author talking about bugs? Ottowakis, the German comedian, we all laughed a lot about him but I cannot laugh about his racist jokes anymore. Reporting in the media in the 70s and 90s especially cover pictures for a Spiegel, an important German weekly. I found a quote that basically goes, cities such as Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt can barely deal with the invasion anymore. They're starting to create ghettos. This was about Turkish migrants to Germany. Another question is, where did Doc Baum get his plutonium and back to the future? Ah, well, from Lebanese terrorists. Arnold Schwarzenegger obviously was dealing with Arab extremists, Idiana Jones. He's not racist, right? Oh, well, that kind of has several stereotypes in his movies. Arabs are always lazy and always in the way but one thing that really grabbed me is that Idiana Jones' task is to go to other cultures and grab their cultural treasures and bring them to Western museums. That's basically what we were talking about with Nefertiti earlier. That's basically colonialism but culturally. And that's extremely mean because once you start looking into racism you start realizing that it's everywhere and it really is undermining movies that you used to enjoy. And Disney, Disney can't possibly be racist, right? Well, Aladdin, in addition to the fact that the evil Arabs obviously have big noses and all his friends kind of look like Latino teenagers from a U.S. college. But the really crazy thing is the original song, the intro song was originally about the origin of Aladdin.  That's barbarian, but hey, it's home. After public pressure Disney changed the song. And that's interesting to see how many racist stereotypes you can find in the last century.  But at least they're only Hollywood cliches and stereotypes. But we know that's not true. And then there was September 11, which was almost ready for Hollywood in a movie from Hollywood. People were traumatized. People were watching all of this in TV.  Then there were additional terrorist attacks in Europe. I'm sparing you the pictures, but I'm showing you pictures of the memorials here. And again, there is reporting, all of them young Arab or young Muslim men. The question is what does that do to a society if for decades we only always push the same narratives with regards to the media, but also with regards to Islamic terrorism. In 2012 there was a study about the German society with regards to the quote, Muslims and their religion are so different from us that it would be naive to demand the same access to society and to all positions in society for them. And 27% fully agree with this and 30% somewhat agree with this. So the question is essentially like getting at racism. It's asking, do you think people should be excluded based on their religion and their belief? And more than 50% agree with this. So that means racism is not a corner case. It's something where more than half of the people in Germany have racist and Islamophobic ideas. Yeah, but I mean the sentiment is, well, Islam is far, far away. And then there was the war in Syria and we see a lot of young men and they look like the terrorists we've seen before. And the religious monitor of the Bertelsmann Trust says about half of the people we asked think that Islam is a threat. It's more in East Germany and apparently a lot of people see Islam not as a religion but they see it as a political ideology and that means they excluded from religious tolerance. They see the debate and the media reporting are a reason for that because they put Islam into a context of terrorists.  So more than 50% are afraid for Islamization or are afraid of the Islam. So what are the effects of so many people having those ideas and feelings? So if you think about it, so if people are really, really scared of this religion, so they go with metaphors like a flood of people claiming asylum, a flood of refugees, mass, immigration, invasion. So that means people are metaphorically formed into a weapon and it dehumanizes people and legitimates violence in the end. So now there of course are people who are trying to work against that but they are talked about as traitors, as left fascists, as left-wing bullshit people, as do-gooders, social justice warriors and so we have this idea of the press lying as all being figured out. So those narratives are completely illogical because they only appeal to emotions. People are in panic, they are afraid or in fear and they're using those narratives. And the more effective of that is hate speech. People think about this as verbose self-defense. If you look at Miss Chipley or Miss Hayali which show with what kind of flood of hatred and even death threats they are confronted, they are not only focal points as a person for people who want to conduct and hate speech, but they also have a background, they look like they have a migration background that's what makes them a target. And then there's a lot of people who are really in this fake news world and conspiracy theories world and that makes those people a target and I deeply solidarise with them. So of course with the targets.  So to say I'm afraid of being in hate, no one could put me on this bridge because it's a glass bridge and no one could even drag me on this because I would be so afraid and so this fear of walking on a glass bridge is completely irrational. But if someone not tells me, well it's certified, it's completely safe, you can absolutely go there. It's a logical argument because I'm afraid of being with my fear of hate. So they had to drag me over this bridge. So that's a problem because if someone is actually in fear or in panic, it doesn't respond to logical arguments and it doesn't work to call people with racist fears Nazis because they are not yet Nazis. But at the time Nazi is just a pre-objective term without actual good content.  Did you value me that? So on psychological level, we say they have a cognitive dissonance.  I could look at my fears but I could just find a strategy to circumvent that. For example, here are some examples. So your fear is being directed to different causes. So the contradiction between what I say and what I do is played down. It's an idea of being obligated to act in a racist way or I just simply deny what's happening like fake news in the press and I just select my information and I print my information selectively so that it doesn't reduce my cognitive dissonance. So that's a very, very interesting picture because that's an empty bus with empty chairs but it looks like women wearing a bokeh and people are actually seeing this in there. We were laughing about this and people who are actually that panicking that they actually see empty bus seats as bokeh. So people with racist fears actually need those fake news for their self-confidence so the massive fake news in the social media is not the problem, it's a symptom of what we see. And people with racist fears are very vulnerable to conspiracy theories. For example, if you say well, Chancellor has a plan of getting immigrants into the country you also find anti-Semitic conspiracy theories so that's a plan of Jewish people to get the Muslim people into the country.  Well, they take to the streets so you see Pegida, patriotic Europeans, they're serious about fighting against Islamization of Europe. They really believe this and they would like to elect someone who represents them but they cannot find a representation because those party would have to contradict the basic law but there is one party called Alternative for Deutschland the Alternative Party for Germany and so in the names of other party there's something about their value system like a Green Party or a Socialist Party and so that's something that's not attractive for racists but having this alternative that's something that appeals to them. So Bert Lucca and Frau Keperi that you see here they left the party because of their turn to right-wing extremism and there have been warnings in 2015 already about extremist movements in this party which have not been dealt with and the interesting thing is that we have a symbiosis of two powers here we have conservative people here and right-wing extremism in there so the conservatives they say well the right-wing extremism is not that bad I just threw away a quote here but it basically says we have no right-wing extremism in our party and the right-wing extremists they are their part is to get the votes to get the people to vote because when people say well after they are right now is in the parliament is it part of established parties no it's still very very extremist people in there and that makes them attractive for voters and that's a symbiosis that only works in this interplay so you see people who left this party tried to found their own parties they didn't work only this symbiosis here makes it work so let's look at the international part so if you look at the western society so what's reality and what is the idea of having muslim people in the country so in Germany we have 5% muslims and people think it's more than 20% of people living in the country so in almost all countries there's a great overestimation of how many muslims in there so let's look at what connects the voter bases of right-wing parties or right-wing extremist parties they have the very same opinion when it comes to immigration they are widely different parties but when it comes to racism and to immigration they have to share the same ideas so those parties have constituted a platform for voting potential from the right-wing and right-wing extremists so if you look at the brexit then we also have muslims race them towards muslims as part of the brexit campaign then in France 84 year old men attacked a mosque especially the immigration said the press in France is warning of muslim immigration Netherlands there's also from the right-wing party a warning there is Islamization you have the same thing in Italy so we don't want any immigration especially from muslim and african countries they say if you look at the USA you have the muslim ban and you have the how do I call that the racist wall that he built and a lot of people did not understand why do people elect someone and just don't seem to recognize that he is racist and the thing is they don't elect him in spite of him being a racist they don't elect him because he is a racist so if an impeachment would remove Donald Trump the racist potential in society is still there and at that point people maybe would look back and say well Trump was an idiot so he wasn't clever enough to break all of the things or didn't establish fascism that might be something that we could see in a review you might remember the chancellor debate more than half of the time was about terror Islam migration and deportation obviously you can also indoctrinate people and make them believe that this is an important topic by simply covering it highly well, again structural incitement of hate something that especially appears in the Biltzeitung which is an important german tabloid I scraped the 20 most red built articles in october 2019 out of the 20 most red articles six are about criminality by migrants there are none that portray migrants in any particularly positive picture and then even the other 20 most red ones are articles that essentially push this AFD alternative for germany right wing narrative the greens are losing money the antifa is putting our freedom into danger at this point the former editor in chief who worked for the Bilt for 10 years now calls the Bilt a de facto organizational part of the AFD this far right party that I was talking about earlier so basically all these narratives that the AFD is using a lot of these they didn't even develop themselves but a lot of these narratives existed before and they simply had to grab them from the Bilt newspaper we really have to say that western media have failed to generate terrorist propaganda terror is not a military strategy it's something that's a communication strategy and it tries to generate spectacular pictures that works you need to generate clicks we know this from when a famous person a celebrity takes their life then you need to be really careful because if you report on it too much then there are people who imitate the suicide why don't you do that we should maybe be doing the same right because if you say you report on a terror attack then you need to kind of put a caveat we know that this is supposed to scare you but don't be scared media have basically been practicing structural incitement of hate for years they make money with this I don't want to generalize here I want to use a few examples of media that actually do a really good job of this for example there's the NDR with German public broadcasting service that did a really good job of interviewing refugees Spiegel online the online version of the Spiegel had an article on celebrities that used to be refugees there was a Tagess Spiegel newspaper in Berlin which produced one edition that was entirely produced by people who were refugees there was another radio feature as well that was also about racism for government deal with this there is a program called Live Democracy initially created by the SPD the Social Democratic Party it has around 1 million euros for different civil society projects that work against racism and far-right extremism for instance an exit program for neo-nazis but that was supposed to lose some of its money in 2019 there was an attack in Halle in October 2019 a few hours later this this was an attack against the synagogue a few hours later the government changed its mind there are here a few examples from the CDU Merkel's Christian Democratic Union there's Robert Moritz who was a far-right extremist as Christina Schröder who often gets attention for her far-right positions where she says essentially claims that Muslim men are generally more prone to violence sometimes claims that this is related to their norms claims that they are hard to integrate she wanted to cut financial support for measures against right-wing extremism after the National Socialist Underground was blown up in November 2011 it became very clear that there was a far-right terror organization at the time the German minister was trying to take the money away but after it came out that there was right-wing extremism she had to stop cutting money for them the young union which is the young person's arm of the CDU wants to take money away from the Amador Antonio Foundation which works against anti-Semitism the CDU wants to undermine associations that are working against far-right terrorism for the longest time they only tried to support research that only looked into Islamic terrorism but not into far-right extremism until very recently we can't wait until people die first we need to start looking into this but right now the way it works people die and only then is money being given into research but Tina Kudder is talking about how people are being replaced kind of like this great replacement rhetoric Kavegna says that saving people in the Mediterranean is a cap service Hans-Peter Friedrich from the CSU called People Who Are Demonstrating Against the AfD left-wing fascist other people Söder from the CSU is talking about asylum tourism Thomas de Miser is talking about People Who Refuse to Integrate Andreas Scheuer from CSU says that once you have a football playing Senegalese who has been here for three years the worst thing is that you can never get rid of him ever again and then Jens Spahn also from the CSU said we have more in common with the AfD than with the SPD, thank you the Western society has a mass phenomenon of Islamophobic racism and we don't want to see it instead we deal with the symptoms this is something that I tried to portray as a graphic so racism is a mass phenomenon possibly pushed by or probably pushed by international terrorism and unreflected very one-sided reporting it's further exacerbated by politicians who essentially normalize racism and want to use this as a tool to gain votes and in addition this is exacerbated by structurally racist reporting that kind of confirms racism again I propose to use the term structural incitement of hatred and this mass movement has all of these results such as hate speech thoughts of murder, fake news, echo chambers AFD and Pegida and right-wing extremism all of these are consequences of course we can do something against hate speech but the real problem is racism as a mass phenomenon which is the core root of the issue and since I have a bit more time I want to use another example there was the case of Wechtersbach tried to shoot a man from Eritrea afterwards someone researched where this man came from what his social environment was and so he obviously had a pub where they were produced racist on a daily basis the attack in Halle where a man tried to enter a synagogue and in his background a background story had an interview with his mother who also has anti-Semitic positions and I think that's really interesting because we're talking about radicalization online because we can look at it online but what we can't research as easily is radicalization at home or radicalization in your favorite pub that you go to every day and it's not visible and just because we can see it online and on the internet that doesn't mean that it's the internet's fault because racism essentially comes from within society four reasons why we all need to pay attention to racism now these are the bad news only if you look into racism can you recognize it and do anything against it one thing that I noticed before when I was confronted with racism I often didn't recognize it and in addition to that I started to essentially mark it as racism because I was lacking this deeper understanding of the underlying mechanisms secondly only if you start looking into racism can you also recognize it in yourself this is really bad news for you once I started looking into this I also started realizing how many racist stereotypes I have myself and only then can you start questioning getting rid of those racist stereotypes that you hold now is really bad news why do people profit from racism so next time you end up in a police check or if a police check that's doing racial profiling works past you you profit because it hits someone else or when you get an apartment instead of someone else or if you get a job instead of someone else who has a Turkish name in every single case you profit from racism and you benefit from racism and not seeing racism is part of structural racism if you ignore racism you're part of it for decades I had the benefit of being able to say I didn't know I could say I didn't know I wasn't sure that there was structural racism I didn't know it existed in society I just didn't know I'm sorry the bad news is well I just took that innocence away from you and so I confronted you with well now if you continue to close your eyes you're participating thanks for this very very interesting talk we have a couple of so and before we come to the questions just your translators we are FL Burger and YT Chen and now we start with the questions maybe I'm going to meet Christina Schröder what I'm going to tell her or what do I say if she says something or if she doesn't say something that I can talk something to her but if I can talk to her I can talk that's a good question that's incredibly difficult I think there's two levels of which you have to talk about one is what can you do against racism that's not an easy topic especially once people have gotten lost in a world of racist anxiety I mean we can't give 50% of the population in therapy for anxiety and I think that's the most important thing is to question all of these structures that support structural racism especially structures that continue to perpetrate these racist narratives Christina Schröder is also the racism or used to be the expert for racism and extremism so maybe a conversation with some researchers might be sensible for her maybe getting informed yourself might be a good basis for talking to her once you encounter her especially with regards to her statements about Muslims being particularly dangerous or particularly hard to integrate so next there's a question from the internet and I see there's a couple of people who are atheists and they have a lot of debates about circumcision of voice the borderline to racism here how do you discuss it without racism that's incredibly difficult we know this topic that there are several military actions by Israel and it's hard to criticize them without being called an anti-Semite or ending up in the same position as an anti-Semite and that's incredibly hard and I'm sorry but there's no easy answer but yeah it's just very hard but to date I was missing this debate about this which would be the necessary basis for getting to a solution there might be no solution to this there might be no easy answers but yeah next there's a question from the microphone for that was a great talk thank you and well thinking about your t-shirt so for us potato Germans so I was surprised that it changed my view so we're talking about 20 million people are in racist panic or fears but we also have 20 million people with a migration background who are also in fear could be in fear and in the debate we're not talking about their emotions and we're talking about the potato Germans in fear yeah the invisibility of people who are victims of racism is an important part of structural racism they're not being listened to you're not giving them room to speak about this there are several programs there's for example the half potato podcast which deals a lot with people from different backgrounds and they really make jokes about how once they want to fly somewhere they need to arrive there two or three hours early or need to get rid of their beard because otherwise they will be racially profiled and cannot go on their holiday and for them that's almost normal and being confronted with that I think is incredibly helpful so halbe kartoffel is an important recommendation maschalla by katrin runöcke is also a very good podcast because there are different formats that essentially deal with people and empower people who you could meet at any point in time those people finally get an opportunity to talk about racism and I think that's the important thing to be able to be aware of that next there's microphone 7 ok thanks for the talk so at at the end you said ok when you don't see racism you're part of it and at the beginning you're talking about cognitive dissonance so my question is how do I help people to see that and to accept that there is racism as I said that's hard we're really missing there's a lack of solutions and tools confronting people could maybe help for instance inviting the family but that's really hard I really don't have any solutions to be honest one thing I was concerned with in the first place is what are these phenomena this slant in politics in reporting that's where I wanted to where I saw racism as a mass phenomenon that I really don't know maybe there are people who know more about this than me but one thing I can really advocate is that we need to stop essentially further exacerbating this racism so we have time for one question do we yeah ok number 4 hi did you think about in your research what role school and education play and how we could at this early stage how does manipulation happen there by teachers by media or by in the schoolyards well this research into pubs families the social environment is extremely hard Heidmeier is also a scientist of education so is also a scientist who basically researches youth culture and youth education and I know anecdotes but I'm not where I don't think it can be researched systematically and obviously what you see there are things that kids also bring into school from home so I don't know anything more specific about it okay is there are there more questions yep okay yeah you said that everyone's racist when you take a job or you take you can get a flat that because someone is being discriminated in that process well that means everyone is racist but what can I do about it what can anyone do about it being racist by yeah what can you do but take a flat saying you are racist just because you accept the apartment the point from which you are racist that's really hard to say but what I want to point out is that you benefit from racism so if you're a white person you profit from structural racism and as long as you're a man you benefit from structural sexism that's something that I really wasn't aware of before only once you start looking into this and once you hear victims talk about how you're being discriminated and visible only then are you being confronted with this and that's why I can only recommend to everyone even if the degrees to which you benefit are incredibly small you're still automatically part of the structure because it's structural racism and that basically creates an obligation for all of us to inform ourselves okay next there's a question from number one I I think it's not bad if Christina Schröder the former minister makes problematic statements the second is is it a problem that we that things we want to change in our society we always have this war rhetoric if you want to fight racism if we want to if we want to kill racism or swipe out or something I think that people who dealing with racism they have this I think it's difficult for people to deal with or to accept there is racism when this rhetoric is there oh yeah I think that's very clear a lot of things are escalating as well and are mutually reinforcing each other as well once someone says that your family is racist when someone is saying something racist I might also say oh you're voting for a fascist party even if it's not really his fault basically it's completely irrelevant whether I managed to convince him or not but my anger also is then projected onto this other person which is why it's incredibly hard to discuss these things but at the moment we're not discussing these things at all so when you meet with people over a coffee or a beer then sexism or racism it's not really something that you talk about on a regular basis even though so many people are affected by it and that's really sad ok next there's a question from number 7 I would like to say to the whole topic Toboka Ogete and her book Exit Racism Racism Critical Thinking I would like to recommend that and I would be interested in more recommendations yeah that's very good I also read the book there's an incredible wealth the only appeal that I can make to you is we need to talk about racism more I'm not really prepared to actually do that myself right now I can only say this is what we've observed over the past few years those are the effects of that and so what we do now and what we can do ourselves I didn't even start talking about that, that's not even part of it ok next there's another question from another microphone so thanks again for the talk I have two things I would like to say so first is I have a migration background I'm living in Germany for 10 years and I'm a lot in a lot of discourses and it's divided you know people with a background in immigration they talk on their own and then you have the Germans discussing this separately from us so racism is not only fundamental of course there's racism in immigrants and I think that that has a social economical background so what job do I have how much money do I have how much money I have inherited and those elements are you know I think we should talk more about this and what's your opinion on that and why are those elements not in this talk yeah I also noticed that I was at several events for example in a university environment that only affected university students or an activist context that we're discussing this but that the kind of whole of society discussion is missing I mean I have this forum and so I use opportunity to discuss to bring up this topic here but I really think it has to become bigger yeah I don't know whether that helps okay we're time for one final question number three okay thank you I would like to say something to school and how things start there how discrimination incites there so I don't know how it's in sexism so my children are lucky or unlucky and a Bavarian grammar school there is a school service a Christian school service and that means that children go with their teacher to the next church and of course only the children of Christian believe all other children have to stay at school and do something else and I see there's you know they have this structural divide in their in grammar school even in children by saying okay one religion is well maybe superior or at least has a special status and personally as an atheist I also feel discriminated in this regard and I just wanted to give this as a hint how even in grammar schools children are indoctrinated yeah as you you can see once you start seeing this once you can see it everywhere you notice it everywhere okay thanks again thanks again for the questions and there is a big hand again for Misha here and from the translation team if you want to say hi or


Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we will be talking about the situation in Kashmir and to talk to us about in detail we are being joined by Prabhupur Kayaasta who is the editor of NewsClick and the president of Free Software Movement in India. Also we are being joined by Gautam who is a long time civil liberties activist. Gautam I will start with you first. 36 ministers are supposed to go to Jammu in Kashmir to do an assessment of what's happening in this region and talk to the people about government's policies and create an interaction in that space. What does this mean? It's very interesting because out of the 36 ministers, only 5 ministers visit Kashmir. Out of 59 odd places that they are supposed to visit, only 8 are in Kashmir, 51 are in Jammu. So obviously if this is an attempt at reaching out to the people, it's primarily targeted at the Jammu people compared to Kashmir. The idea is of course the government feels that there all the good initiatives and policies that they have taken are not filtering down because they locked down everything. There is no free flow of information or news to anyone. People don't know what is happening except for what they hear through word of mouth. So in such a situation, if the government feels that they're you know people are not getting to know the good things that are going to come out from their policies and so-called development plans, then it becomes necessary for them to go directly to reach out to people which actually is an also an admission of failure on the part or the imbecility of the government to have introduced a complete lockdown in Kashmir which denied not just information, news or their the freedoms to express themselves, but have actually turned them into virtual captives. Now to go there to meet captives and to persuade them sounds extremely I mean to my ears it sounds very insidious and sinister. I don't get any good feeling or vibes out of this thing. Jammu and Ladakh were two areas where people came out in support of abrogation of Article 370, but the situation has turned. People have begun to express their deep apprehension about what is in store for them because they're losing the control over land and job opportunities which people fear. They'll have to be competing with outsiders. They fear loss of power, diminution in the status of a state from special status to a union territory which is virtually a colony because they won't have control over two key elements. One is police, the other is land. The Jammu Chamber of Commerce has come out and complained that by making by removing octroy what they have done is destroyed livelihood of three to four lakh people, robbed them of the jobs because the local industries have to shut down now because that octroy protection which they enjoyed which enabled them to produce for a market in Jammu and Kashmir is no longer available because they'll be competing with outsiders supplying goods to the local people. So what happens to jobs and industries? So if government is on the one hand talking about bringing development and industrialization to Jammu and Kashmir, on the other hand actually the existing industries are going to close down. They're virtually closed, 95% of them are closed in Kashmir and about 30% of industrial units stand closed. It's a staggering economic crisis also that Jammu and Kashmir has been faced with now. In fact, Rabi that brings me to the next question. The entire internet lockdown that has taken place it's been 165 days and the kind of suffocation that has been put that has been thrusted upon the people in Jammu and Kashmir is one of the kind. I mean there are protests but nobody can hear of it. They want to access information they cannot and Supreme Court has talked about lifting the ban and calling it the very basic fundamental right. How do you read this? I think internet is something that we have to worry about today because it is not just a means of communication. It's also means to express ourselves. So this is what Supreme Court has said that this is also about freedom of speech which is as you know under section 19 article 19 of the Constitution is something that is guaranteed to the citizens subject to reasonable restrictions and Supreme Court itself has said in the same judgment on Kashmir that these restrictions do not appear to be reasonable and the government should review that. But having said that they did not go any further and they in fact said the government should review and the court didn't give any further relief and neither has it kept the petition pending waiting for the government to review and give them a report. So in some sense you have conceded the substance of the argument on what that the internet is a fundamental right today but at the same time you have not done anything to make people avail of that right and unfortunately this is the problem with the courts these days to say the right things but do not fall off with the resubstantive delivery in terms of justice. But having said that let's look at some of the other issues that happened. You know it's not only a question of freedom of speech it is also the question that today you need a job how do you apply a lot of it is over the internet you will need an admission outside Jammu or outside Kashmir you need to go and apply through the internet the government sets a whole bunch of its schemes are delivered through the internet and also if you want to verify a simple thing like your adhan it is also needs the internet if you want rations again you need to verify yourself. So the whole bunch of welfare measures which is what is supposed to be enabled by the internet this was also the previous government also these governments claim that they are going to make everything available online. Now if you take away that online itself and say it's only available if you come to specific centers which can be 50 miles 30 miles 20 miles from where you are communication is one thing but even physical transport physical going and coming and going is difficult again the all kinds of restrictions what you are making is on one hand you claim that everything should be online and you will make everything including education available online including applying and so on at the same time you say internet is really a luxury and we can take it away when we want because it's not necessary. So there is a contradiction here in both these issues what you are promising the citizen and what you say is not necessary for the citizen I think this is something the courts unfortunately while having accepted as a fundamental right has really let me say failed in giving justice to the people because they have made good pronouncements but have had no delivery. Can I pose a question because this requires clarity and for most viewers who would not understand can you explain Praveer when the government says that they are going to start resume mobile internet but 2G service what are the implications second when they say that they are going to start broadband services but only for essential or basic you know items like health I mean hospitals banks and government institutions what does it mean see we know today that 80 to 85 percent of the connectivity today is to the cell phone so effectively when you are talking about internet you are not talking of the wired services you really talking as far as the people are concerned to mobile so it's also interesting to see that this what we're talking about opening the mobile services internet services only is about again Jammu okay so it's about five districts and these are Hindu dominated districts yeah let us put that that issue aside for the time being I think we all of us know the implication of Jammu and the valley but having said that it is about Jammu and obviously Jammu and Kashmir are being treated differently and that we know from the beginning in Jammu again the city had access to mobile services for some time 2G services for some time now it's extended to five districts again 2G is a very slow service so effectively anything to do with visuals images etc doesn't work on that most of the time you will see today you will get timed out if you try to upload a form for instance so effectively it's a crippled service as it were that you're offering no it's a it's a legacy service if you will and because of the slow speed of connection most people will not use it second part of it is that you will find the social media is still out of bounds so effectively you can communicate with government services if you want something registering for something applying for something but my whole experience has been that the government services the websites are also extremely slow and therefore if you are looking to access the 2G services you'll probably get timed out before you have done anything except look at one page so effectively all these services the government gives I don't think work on 2G but you know something my issue is I want hospitals I want to reach something I want to say register as a patient for an appointment tomorrow all this today takes place a lot of it today takes place on the internet and how do you do all of that if you want to apply as a student would you try even on an internet good connections you're not able to log in very easily to those kind of forms apply online and so on there's no chance that you will be able to do it in 2G and anyway Kashmir still lies that only fixed places you can go and you can only see fixed things you know that means you can only see certain kind of things but not others but the whole the other part which I didn't answer actually I should have how many livelihoods today depend on the internet what happens to Uber drivers and Ola drivers what happens to all those who deliver various services to us the entire IT based service company is units in Kashmir have closed down because it's nothing but I'm also saying that the whole informal economy which is based likes from swiggy food delivery to your rides hailing of rides a whole bunch of other things today really life is completely affected all of that is affected and then of course you have all other problems communication which I'm not going into I'm really talking about internet not just as a right to avail of information right to speak it's also about delivery of services essential services and it's also about people's livelihoods which depend on providing internet based services all of that is collapsed Neil I'd like to add something and for the media internet is vital it's very important I mean work suffers if you don't have access to internet and imagine if this is denied to the media and Kashmir so you can tom-tom and claim that everything is hankidori and our army chiefs can come out and give their political opinion calling it historic step and things like that the reality on the ground is very different but Gautam it is the historic step historically very bad yes okay so let's not talk not not let's not quibble about doing historic but the point about media you made that is a very important one you see today media can avail of internet if it goes to say places like press club how many place press clubs are there so only available say in Srinagar how many other places can be media people then access information can you write about things without accessing information in today's world you can't you know so those are the kind of issues that also come up that delivery and here the Supreme Court did make the right pronouncement that information is a right and communication is a part related to freedom of speech so but as I said unfortunately the right exists you know during emergency and I have to bring it down to this that it was said by the Rende yes who's attorney general yes you have the freedom of life you have a right to life but it cannot be exercised during emergency so you have the fundamental rights they are not suspended but you can't exercise them so Supreme Court is again reiterated freedom of speech is a right and it has to be there but it has not ensured that it be exercised that is the problem we have okay I like to add something while we are talking about all both has happened in the last five minutes I think we should keep reminding ourselves the saddest part I feel as a civil liberties activist also is a total lack of concern that that we seem to be showing for those who have been picked up arrested detained and I am talking primarily about those those who have been picked up incarcerated in Kashmir are being treated one way but there is a whole body of people more than 600 who are rotting in Indian jails outside Jamun Kashmir and they face all kind of obstacles their families and they're still there and there's not a voice there is not a judiciary which is talked about their rights so I mean what kind of civil liberties and what kind of democracy do we have where you're not even concerned I mean the normal rules of law that should apply where families can visit their detainees without any problems or hindrance to meeting the lawyers to getting their bail applications heard to etc etc everything seems to have been denied to them this is the worst part I feel so we can talk about everything else but we have to also bring in the fact that so many people and so many kids suffered at the hands of Indian security forces and the police in particular after august 5th and there has been no I mean it's as if we can do anything with the children which is to come in the next generation so we can talk about citizenship the army chief can talk about the constitution and preamble what what happens to people on the ground thank you Gautam thank you Prabir we live in a democracy with an entire state that is captive