Good morning. Good evening. Welcome to the committee of the hall. I'm glad you're here again this evening I commend you for turning out in this weather although we have nothing to complain about. We are in, Wisconsin So thank you for being here Alderman Graf. Would you call the roll, please? Bowman D-Berg E-Berg Serta Davis Graf is here Kittleson Manny excused Meier Montemarro Here Radke Excuse, I'm sorry. He's ill. Yes. Segali Here Stefan Here Susha Here Van Akron Here Vander wheelie Here 14 present Quorum is present. We will proceed. Thank you Alderman Graf. I'll entertain a motion to approve the minutes of our last meeting held August 22, 2005 Do we have a second? We have a motion and a second to approve the minutes of our last meeting. Is there any discussion? Seeing none. All in favor of approval signified by saying aye. Disapproval. Thank you. Agenda number four. Possible action on site selection if information from Vandervaart has been received. We do have some information that we received from the Vandervaart company. I think you've all seen it on your desk and Susan Hart will explain what information she has gathered. She will explain that information that you received. Susan, I've returned on yes. Hi. Basically, I contacted the contacts that Vandervaart at our meeting on August 30th had indicated had expressed some interest in purchasing parcels or pieces of the land and you have my notes on your desk. Now, two of the folks I was not able to reach. They did not return phone calls. But this is a busy time of year. I don't know if people are gone or on vacation. But you can tell that basically there is one possibility and that's at the very top, quashes. They need to expand. Oh, thank you. They need to expand their business. They said that they're getting so much request for extra rental equipment that they can't house it all. So they have not discussed a price though with Vandervaart because Vandervaart had indicated they did not want to parcel out the land. But they were the most interested. Joseph Schmitt and Sons is not interested. Tom Schaefer is a developer out of Milwaukee still waiting on a return phone call. Progressive beginnings waiting on a return phone call. Northland Plastics. They are not interested in the price that was quoted by Vandervaart but they would be interested in the price if it wasn't at the industrial park price of 22,000 an acre. Automation products. Both Mary Rager and I have tried to reach them and I don't even know if they're still an open business. The phone just rings and rings and rings. No answering machine. No pickup at all. Concord development indicated that they had just briefly talked in passing about the idea of perhaps a residential area in the Vandervaart site. Great Lakes Training and Development is not interested at one point. They had talked about building some low income housing at that spot but decided not to do that. And then Quash's Construction. They were at one point interested but the gentleman I talked with, Mr. Ray Hain, indicated that they were initially quoted 60,000 an acre but over the weekend it went up to 100,000 an acre which took away their interest real fast. And then Canaan Construction. He mentioned they had three clients. Two were RCS that I had already explained up in Quash's Construction and the other Northland Plastics that expressed they are no longer interested. The third client they want to remain anonymous but indicated that they would be interested perhaps in four acres on the south side for a retail type of application but nothing more had been talked about or discussed. So what types of questions can I answer for you? Susan, when you were speaking with any of these prospective buyers, did they say please call me back, let me know what's going on? The closest I got to that was Quash's Equipment Rental. Number one when he said, you know, yeah, we really might be interested. And he was real specific about what they wanted. The corner of Broadway and Business 42 talked about what they would use it for. So I think that they were really the only interested party. Thank you very much. Alderman Dan Berg. How many acres did Northland Plastics say they were interested in at the 22,000? What they had indicated is that they would, I'm sorry, I'm confusing them with someone else, they did not indicate how many acres. They just said that before they'd even consider it, it would have to be at the 22,000 an acre, the industrial site price. Alderman Dan Berg, does that answer? For now. What you were trying to find out? Thank you Alderman Berg. Alderman Serda. Thank you Madam Chair. I understand that this is the first phase of collecting the information for the Vandervaard site. But in addition to our meeting that we had, there was two properties that they were inquiring off of Highway 42 and then out in the industrial park, further south, the garden property. Right. And people have been calling me at home asking when those numbers will be translated and given to the elder persons. I'm going to have to defer to Mr. Holton. Do you remember from that meeting that we were at, you were waiting for the end of the month to find out before you could translate some numbers for what the garden property would run? The Heisen property. No, not the Heisen, the garden property. Well they're looking for both. I mean just in terms of collecting that information, they think I was going to be presenting that. But from the meeting what I understood is the Heisen property. I remember Mr. Holton saying that perhaps the city would not want to parcel that out because it would diminish the land value. It was in your notes from the meeting that we had. But the garden property, as I recall, because I did those minutes, you were waiting for some information on the Romer property before you could. So do you have that yet? Mr. Mayor, I think you have some information for us. Thank you, Madam Chair. When we met, I believe Alderman certainly remembers that there were also going to check with the town of Wilson and the town of Cheboygan to see if there were some restrictions with respect to heavy trucks on certain sections that didn't belong to the city. We haven't heard from them either. With respect to numbers, I think that what we need to do first is to get an appraisal of the Van der Waart site to see what it's actually worth so that we can go back and translate the numbers from our end. Our acreage is selling for 22,000 an acre. If there were to agree to a land swap, it would be our 22,000 versus their 100,000 per acre. To me, it's a little outrageous. It may be that if the council is interested in the Van der Waart that the council consider instead a swap to do an outright purchase. I believe we'd come out ahead in that respect. But we can't get to that point until we know what the land's worth so that we can start comparing both sites and so forth. What I did today also, as I requested from the engineer in office, an aerial map that gives me a much, much better picture. And I did do a tour with Chief Kirk and Deputy Chief Weiss today. We toured the property and got a better look at exactly what people have been talking about. What we haven't quite pinned down is what is that piece of land that Van der Waart actually wants to keep. And that would be my next step to pursue that if we keep moving in that direction. There's still some questions that need to be answered, and I hope to make that contact soon. Thank you, Your Honor. Now, it seems to me that Mr. Tietik, when he was spoke with us, wants to sell us 14 acres at $100,000 an acre. He wants to purchase 14 acres for $22,000 from us. I mean, we can call it swap, but we're going to pay him $100,000. He's going to pay us $22,000 for the land. And the land out at Heisen, I would imagine, would be definitely not $100,000 by any means that he would pay for that. And if we were to sell him the land at Heisen, it seems to me he would work well for him. But of course, being in the town, all the property taxes go to the town, not us. He would simply get the $10,000, $22,000, however much we charge him for however many acres he wants. I think I'm right in all of these numbers. Alderman Serta, did you want to ask another question? Yes, please. Go ahead, please. Thank you, Madam Chair. I contacted Vandervaart today, and forgive us because they were left with the impression that, again, the ball was in our court. But because they were going to be doing their own research on the roads and such. And all I'm asking is that you present this information to the elder persons. I was unaware, and I thought I communicated myself thoroughly in the meeting that I understand, for instance, Mr. Holton is giving his recommendation. But I guess I didn't want him to stop there and decipher and make that his own discretion there. I think that's for us elder persons. And all I was asking is to get the numbers, the reflection, for us to make that decision. And as far as the 22,000, and maybe Paulette can answer this question. I was under the assumption, and Vandervaart is fully understanding that it wasn't going to be a fair swap. They never gave that impression, and they realized that there would be some out-of-pocket expenses for the city. But if Paulette could answer, or Tom, the question of why we would maybe sell the acreage more out on Highway 42 versus our industrial park area. I was going to come back up a little bit. Vandervaart, I suggest them to check with the towns about what use they could have with their zoning, if it would fit their zoning. So they were doing that also. And I didn't recommend not splitting up the parcel on Heist. I just said that the value of that property could be diminished if you split it up. Tom Holton, do we as a city have a price per acre for that Heist and property? No. It won't be $100,000 an acre that we can sell it to them. No. More like $22,000 or less? I guess it would be in the 20s to be a guess. You'd have to have it appraised, but I guess it would probably be in the low 20s, I would guess. So no matter what swap or sell that we do, we will be paying them $1,000,000, $3,000,000, $4,000,000, $1,000,000 something. Possibly, yes. It depends on what appraisal would come in on their property, too, down here. And if they don't hold to what they said, because he did repeatedly say, it's a firm $100,000, it's a firm $100,000. I heard those words repeatedly from the podium right where you are. Thank you. Alderman Segali. Thank you, Madam Chair. I thought that Mr. T. Tech said that they could negotiate the price at the end of his talk. He was saying, well, you know, somewhere if we're going to be interested, something with the monies could be discussed. So there wasn't a firm $100,000 there anymore. But I think he wants some type of a commitment also, you know, from the city. I mean, let's really sit down and let's talk about this. I mean, if we want something different other than the $100,000, we have to sit down and talk. And I think they were willing to do that. Thank you, Alderman Segali. Alderman Vanderwill. Thank you, Madam Chair. In the meeting with Your Honor and Alderman Serda, were they still firm on the $100,000? Did you get that impression per acre? Your Honor. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair. I don't recall talking about that as far as the price again. The one thing they were firm on was that if there was any contamination, if any was found at any point in time, they would not cover any of the costs. I don't recall. Do you recall them? Okay. Okay. Alderman Serda. Alderman Serda. Thank you, Madam Chair. And I think it was referred into the document that the mayor had submitted to us concerning the conversations we had with Vandervaart. The issue of as to why they had arrived at that price, and Vandervaart had just said that was the appraisal that they had recently had and it had came in at 100,000 per acre. So they had gave the explanation as to why they had arrived at that number. But if we do come back and if we do seek this appraisal ourselves and we come up with a different number, I think they would be willing to look at it at least. Do you think if you wanted to look at 22,000 an acre? That would be great. And I think it was pointed out, Madam Chair, that that wasn't unreasonable. That was the going price. So in all fairness to them. Yes. Anything further about the Vandervaart information? Alderman Steffen. Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess just a question for the mayor. He mentioned that we would, as he says, concept was moving forward was working on appraisal. Is that something that we would do in-house or we'd have to have someone else do it? Your Honor. Here we go. Thank you. We'd have to contract it out. We'd have to get somebody to do a, a realtor to do an appraisal commercial. Alderman Steffen, did you want to add? I know. I guess at this time I'd make a motion that we, I know I had my house appraised. It was a few hundred dollars. So it's not going to break us or anything to get an appraisal done on the Vandervaart property. Second. We have a motion and a second to seek out an appraisal. Do we have any further discussion? That has to be recommended to the council. The council has to approve that. Yes. That recommendation has to go to council. I understand. Great. Any further discussion about recommending that to council? We'll take a vote. All those in favor of recommending, asking for an appraisal to council, signifying by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Aye. And that was other persons, Mayer and Sushia. Okay. Alderman Davis. Madam Chairwoman. What I'm about to do here might come around and invite us in the back side here for supporters of the city allside. But I'd like to make a motion at this time that the city hall site be the preferred site to build the police station. It's the most citizen friendly, most economical. And it's got the most cooperative existing owner right now. So I'd like to make that motion, Madam Chair. Do we have a second? Second. We have a motion and a second to recommend city hall as the site in which to build the police station. Any discussion? Alderman Vanderweil. Thank you, Madam Chair. A question on that motion was that to only concentrate on city hall and other sites? Yes. Okay. Thank you. I'm in favor of the city hall site because of the new information I've gotten changed my mind. And recently or a few months ago I said that it was the wrong site. But now I think it will work. But I would vote against that motion because I feel at the Vandervaart site there's still too many questions. So if that motion would include the Vandervaart site until some of the answers are, some of the questions are answered, then I would vote for it. I can make that. I recommend that to include the Vandervaart site. You'll add that. Would you second that? No. I'd second that. Then how do we withdraw the original or change the? The second has to withdraw otherwise we have to vote on that original motion. I will withdraw my second. Thank you. We have a motion and a second to recommend city hall and Vandervaart as possible sites on which to build the police station. Any further discussion on that motion? Alderman Sousa. I would like to make another motion so I'll hold it until the proper time. Any further discussion on the motion to recommend city hall and Vandervaart as two possible sites on which to build the police station? Seeing no further discussion, let's vote. Let's do a roll call. Sure. We'll all be held very responsible for what we're doing. And the city hall. Okay. And I vote would be two. Two sites. Those two sites. Bowman. D-Burg. I. E-Burg. No. Bowman. Bowman was I. Serta. I. Davis. I. Grafwo Vodai. Kiddelsen. I. Mayer. No. Montemarore. I. Segali. I. Stefan. I. Sousa. No. No. Van Akron. I. Vanderville. I. Eleven eyes. Three noes. Motion carries. Thank you. Thank you committee. Thank you. We've at least done this. We've gotten it down to two sites. Alderman Sousa. Actually I was going to amend that. If it's not too late. Yeah. It is too late. It is too late. Okay. We voted. Okay. Thank you. I. I. Want to make up another motion of some sort. Well I can try. I just I don't think it's right that we paid $35,000 to an expert to give us advice and eliminating the first site that he recommended. So I think that if we are going to leave more than one site on the table. That we cannot. Just throw away $35,000 and not take into consideration the site on 23rd Street site. So I would make a motion that we also consider. And that way we're down to three sites and we remove two of them off the table. There's been a motion to. Include the 23rd Street site as one of the places. To build the police station. One of the sites that the council will consider. Do we have a second on that motion? Second. We have a second. Any discussion on the motion. Let's take a roll call vote about. Including the 23rd Street site as a possible site. That would give us three recommendations to the council. D. Berg. No. E. Berg. Aye. Serda. Davis. No. Grown for one. Aye. Kittleson. No. Meyer. Aye. Montemarore. Aye. Segali. No. Steffen. No. Sousa. Aye. Van Ackren. No. Van Ackren. No. Vander wheelie. No. Baumann. No. Five to nine motion fails. We have two sites. Now it's up to the council. Which is us. We'll get this written up and it'll be presented at the next council meeting. Yes. I believe we have to also eliminate vote on eliminating the other two sites. Or was that included in the first motion? No. You know it wasn't? No. Okay. So we need a... Yes. Alderman Davis. Was that included on your original motion to eliminate the other sites? All right. I'm assuming that we're currently not. Okay. Alderman Danberg. Okay. Madam Chair, then I move that all the remaining sites be removed from competition. So that will leave Vandervaart and the police and the site right now on ninth and center. Second. Second. Any further discussion on that motion? That's full. I think we can signify by saying aye. All those in favor of removing all the other sites from consideration signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Aye. Motion carries. Thank you Alderman Danberg. Who made the second on that motion? You're doing a wonderful job Alderman Grom. Thanks. Agenda item number five. Submitting a petition from members of the Sheboygan County Taxpayers Alliance consisting of 1,191 signatures from the citizens of Sheboygan requesting an advisory referendum regarding the 17 million to be used for paying the cost of acquiring land and constructing and equipping a new police facility. The 125 pages of signatures are available for viewing in the city clerk's office. I would entertain a motion to file because the council has already made an action on this. Any further discussion on this arrow? All those in favor of filing signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Aye. Thank you. Agenda item number six. A communication, let's take agenda item number six and seven together. They're both communications from Mary Zerafanatos. And I called everybody on our agenda. Everybody has gotten a call from me, every single person. And Mary told me that she wouldn't be here. And she knows that we're simply probably going to file her communications. We've read them. We understand them. We thank her for communicating with us. I'd entertain a motion to file. Any further discussion? All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries. Agenda item number eight. A communication received by the mayor from Charlene Dickey regarding taxes in the city and concerns with the proposed costs of the police facility. I see Mrs. Dickey here. If you want to add anything, we've read your communication. Thank you. I'll entertain a motion to file. Second? Second. Any discussion? All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Agenda item number nine. These are two communications that were received by the council and referred to committee of the whole in 2004. Some of the things have been acted on already. So I think these are simply housekeeping things. And I'll entertain a motion to file these two communications. So moved. Second. All those in favor, any discussion? All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Agenda item number ten. A communication from Gina Steinhardt regarding numerous issues about the site selection for the new police station and stating many discrepancies in the Zimmerman report. This is simply a bit of housekeeping also because that was the letter that we discussed in length at the last committee of the whole meeting and we filed the letter. But now Sue has given us a document that we have to file.  Well, of course you do. I'll entertain a motion to file. So moved. Is there a second? Second. Any discussion? All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Any nays? Thank you so much. Agenda item number eleven. A petition from residents near the area of the proposed North 23rd Street site for the new police station and other concerned citizens requesting ceasing consideration of the North 23rd Street and Superior Avenue site for the location of the proposed new police station. They are opposed to this site as it would be an interruption of residential life in the surrounding blocks bringing an increase in traffic and noise. The possibility of adding traffic lights would devalue the neighborhood and curtail pedestrian activity. I think we've taken care of that. Alderman Danberg. Madam Chair, thank you. I'm seeing that the 23rd Street site has been taken care of now. I make a motion that we accept and file this communication. Makes perfectly good sense. Any further discussion? Your Honor. Thank you, Madam Chair. I wanted to just clarify perhaps what might be a misunderstanding in the Sheboygan Press. I was quoted as saying that I had not heard from anybody that the 23rd location could not continue to be considered for police station. The circumstances under which I was asked that questions were a little peculiar because they were asked when the list was being shown to me and my understanding was, has anybody from this list called you? And as far as I knew, no one from that list had called me. But I think some people understood that no one in the entire community. Now if I offended anyone, I apologize for that. I did get some calls. Not a lot, but I got some calls from people within the community that said that they wanted the van of our location and that the 23rd location should not continue to be considered. If I offended anyone by not clarifying that, then I extend my apologies to each and every one of them. But that was the circumstances surrounding my comment that I made to the press. And I wanted to make that clear to the public, clear to the council, clear to the gallery. Thank you, Your Honor. Alderman Dan Burke. I understand where he's coming from because the Sheboygan Press does make quite a few mistakes when they court you and what you see in the print. So I'll have to kind of back him up on this one. The press does make quite a few mistakes. Did you want a picture? All those in favor? All those in favor? Any opposed? Thank you, the motion passes. Communication number 12, the questions. And I think Alderman Groff and I are going to try to answer these questions. Good. What services could be shared at 23rd Street? I don't think it's necessary to do that. I think all we have to do is file this one. I think that would be a wonderful idea, Alderman Groff. And I would so move. Any further discussion? I move to file. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Opposed? No. Thank you, Alderman Groff. Communication number 13, a communication from Roger and Candace. Thank you. Stating that they support Gina Steinhardt in her effort to clean up and improve their neighborhood and that her efforts are appreciated and should not go unnoticed. Are Roger or Candace here this evening? Do they want to add? We read your communication. We thank you for your communication. Seeing none, I'll entertain a motion to file. Are you 14 and 15 with me? Yeah. And we'll see if any of the other people are here. Is Betty Davis here? Or Marsha Reese? Marsha Reese. Well, let's see if we can take care of communication. I mean agenda item number 13 and agenda item number 14. I'll entertain a motion to file. All those in favor of filing those two communications. Who may differ? Who may? Agenda item number 13. Agenda item number 14. The ones from the Teacotch family and the one from Betty Davis. Guys, I talked to them on the telephone and we've read their communications. Yes, and Alderman Van Ackman, what would you like to add? I'd like to not file 14 because I may speak on that a little later. Betty Davis is here? No, I would like to speak on it later. Would we come up into the protection safety committee and be part of it? Because there's something set in there that comes out with 14. Thank you Alderman Van Ackman. Agenda item number 13. Who made the motion? You did. No. Okay, I will make a motion to file. All those in favor of filing agenda item number 13, a communication from the Teacotch family. All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion passes. We're holding number 14. Alderman Van Ackman wants to address that later. Agenda item number 15. A communication from Marsha Reese, 1320 Maryland Avenue, and Stephanie Sorens, 1320 Maryland Avenue, stating they are sick and tired of being pushed aside and requesting that the mayor and council listen to the neighborhood spokesperson, Gina Steinhardt, and solve the issues that they face. I assume we all have read their communication so we know what's going on. Marsha, would you like to add something to your communication? Well, we do appreciate you putting the lights in the park. We wish when you put the camera in the park you'd actually have it fixed and it would be working. It's kind of a joke in the neighborhood that the older kids know that and they kind of dance and they get a little out of control some of the gangs there because they just know it's not working. We have issues with trucks constantly going down there. We had a rather good time last year. One day our street was two-way. The next way it was one-way going west. The next day I went outside and they said, I said, what are you doing? So we're making it one-way going east today. So we never know which one-way we're going to be. And on both sides of 14th Street it says no trucks. Well, the trucks are zooming by and we have a stop sign on 13th and Maryland. They just kind of use it like a slowdown. They just go right through it. We have gone out as neighbors and hailed the truck drivers and said, you can't come down here. It's the one-way. They keep insisting that they're getting their information from the dispatchers on where to go. That's the only route they're giving. But the route they're giving, it takes them five times to turn around to back their truck in. If they would go down Penn Avenue or Indiana Avenue, it would be logistically easier for them. A couple times we've seen them slamming on the brakes. We've got about 30 kids in the neighborhood that the mall goes up, but the trucks, they just don't stop there and they keep coming down and it's posted and posted. And we have some of the worst alleys in Sheboygan. They're cracked. They're filthy. We have asked a couple times our neighbors to clean them up. They haven't. We've gone to the city. The city hasn't done it. We have one neighbor on 13th and New Jersey. I think it's part of a movie. We see a suitcase out there once a week with clothes all over the place. They're laundry. They're garbage strewn out. We know recycling is one day as paper, one day as plastic.  And some of the neighbors will not pick it up. So we have this stench there. And it's just like, we want to live there. I have been there in that neighborhood for 21 years. It's not, you know, the most plush of neighborhoods, but it's just like, yes, you're trying to help, but you're putting a bandit on a gashing wound. We really enjoy the neighbors' wear, but there's always a rot in the apple in every bunch. And we're asking for your help. We appreciate all that you've done, but can, you know, we're a small part of Sheboygan, but you have to start somewhere. Can you start helping us? And, you know, we can set an example. I mean, we have friends and family all over Sheboygan. And, you know, we want to say, yes, the city was here for us. We don't want to say, yeah, we wrote letters. We did this and we did this. And you didn't do nothing. We take pride in our city. We take pride in our government.  But we're asking you to back us up. We sent Jean Steinhardt as our spokesperson.   And that's not fair. We give you a chance. We vote you in. So please help us. We need to work with each other. We thank you again for everything you've done for us. And we ask you, please check us out. Come visit us. Talk to us. You know, a lot of times about the park issue and everything else. You talk to people in Black River. We live right there. Come talk to us. Not once did anybody come in my neighborhood and talk about any of the problems. But you read in the paper, people from Black River, oh, save the park. Do this, do that. The neighborhood is not bad. Well, honey, come live there. We do live there. And we do love it. But there are problems. And before it gets out of control, we ask for your help. And that's all I have to say. Thank you. Thank you, Marcia. Thank you. Yes, Alderman Grau. Marcia, your address is 1320 Maryland Avenue. Yes. Okay, thank you. Very last house before rock night. My name is Mary Werthack. I'm the homeowner. And again, I want to thank Gina for all her hard work. She was representing all of the neighbors. And the truck issues. I've stopped the trucks myself. And they tell me that they... Yep. Thank you very much for your support of Gina. That is very commendable for you to do that. But I don't have you on the agenda. But come to the podium, say a couple of words, but then we're going to continue. Because we heard about the... And your name and address, please.  H-U-E-R-T-A. Address is 829 South 13th. And I'm at the very corner of 13th and Maryland. And I've stopped some of the truckers myself. And they have informed me that that is the route that they are getting by rock line. And still, this month, we've been told by rock line that it's not happening and it's still happening this month. And we'd like that stop. Why can they continue to do it? If any one of us were still doing breaking the law, we would have been stopped by now, no matter what. How come they have not? Please help us stop the trucks coming our way. Or I have discussed it with Gina and I would like to discuss it with the other homeowners that our foundations are cracking and perhaps we should discuss this with an attorney and see what we can get done, if anything. Thank you for your comments. Thank you. Tom Holton, did you want to say something about the cameras? We somehow have to find out if that's accurate that the cameras are on or off. Susan Hart, do you have some information about the camera? The camera is on. I think what was referenced, too, is when she says it's not working. We do not have video surveillance as far as a tape recorder recording it. So if a neighbor would call at 3 o'clock on Wednesday afternoon and say to the police there's an issue going on in the park, the police could look because it's in Captain Wallace's office, as my understanding, look at the screen and see what's going on and get someone right over there. If someone calls and says yesterday at 3 o'clock, there is no videotape that has recorded what happened yesterday at 3 o'clock. Thank you for that information, Susan Hart. So when it comes to the trucks going down that street, they're disobeying the signs, it seems to me. That's all I want to say. The alley. Tom Holton, I was under the impression that the citizens on alleys care for the alleys, not the community, not the city of Sheboygan. Am I right or am I wrong? Well, we'll go and maintain if it's a concrete alley. We'll go in there. We'll throw some asphalt just to real minor patching. Otherwise, if you have to go into a reconstruct, it's a cess bag. But we were in the area out there. We did some patching. We'll check that other alley. I thought they were addressed. Thank you, Tom Holton. I see Chief Kirk has something to tell us. Thank you, Madam Chair. I just wish to add a little bit about the camera. The mayor did request the camera to be placed in that park and certainly that's the reason the camera is there. Susan Hart is correct. In fact, before I came up to this meeting, I was watching the park and there were some people playing basketball in that park and I made comment of it. Basketball games are probably a regular occurrence there and I'll understand. We do monitor that camera in that park it is working. Yes, it is. Several of these issues that Gina has brought up and this neighborhood has brought up over the years, we've dealt with these issues now several years. I think we made some great progress there. I think we will continue. I would welcome Gina to still contact us and speak of her concerns and we will deal with them as we have in the past. As far as the other issues, I think there's a number of different issues in that entire neighborhood which I think we've addressed. We've tried to deal with different departments and I think we've come a long way. Is there some needed work? Sure. I just spoke with Officer Winter and he brought up ideas to what sort of barricades we could place up there so that semis could not make some of those turns. As far as the rock line people, I remember sitting in on meetings with rock line. Sergeant Tarkowski dealt with rock line on a number of occasions to get this information down and have the semi-operators be knowledgeable of that information. Where the problem is or where the weaknesses are occurring, perhaps needed to be dealt with once again. I just wish to bring some of these points up. Thank you, Chief. Thank you. Alderman Vanderweil. Thank you, Madam Chair. This question was for Chief Kerr. A few years ago, maybe a year ago, because the one way it was mentioned, we made that into one way going east because of the rock line employee parking lot there. And so when they leave, they wouldn't go through the neighborhood. Is that working right now? I believe it is. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Alderman Vanderweil. Alderman Van Akron. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I've been down here two or three times with Sergeant Tarkowski and stuff, looking at the area. We just, within the last month, I would say signs have been put up from Illinois to Jefferson as no trucking. They used to go down the next street, pass and then come around the block and then go down the hill. We caught them that day when we were standing there doing the same thing. So then Ryan was there. I was there. The fire department was there. We talked about it. And we decided to put every block no trucking. And that seems to stop them some now. So I think we have improved a lot down there in the trucking. Because I have watched trucks different times come from the other way. And when they have left me, they have gone out that way. They are supposed to not back up the street. Thank you. Thank you, Alderman Van Akron. Alderman Meyer. Thank you, Madam Chair. I'm just wondering when the trucks are going down the one, or the no truck road, should they not be ticketed by the police for breaking the law? Would not the next move now be to call the police when trucks are traveling down these no truck routes? Yes. Thank you, Alderman Meyer. Chief. Chief. I have one question of you. Alderman Meyer said, if the residents see trucks proceeding on a street that says no trucks, should they call the police? Absolutely. Thank you. Yes, please do. I'm sorry. I missed a question. I was talking to somebody else. Yes, absolutely. I would recommend that you would call, but get the added information that we need, such as a trucking firm license plate number, things of this nature, time, such information that we can proceed with. Thank you, Chief. Sure. Madam Chair. Yes, Alderman Graf. I would move that the communication be accepted and placed on file. Do we have a second? Any further discussion on agenda item number 15? All those in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion passes. Agenda item number 16. RO number 1680506 by the city clerk submitting a communication from Gina Steinhart regarding continuing issues with the trucks driving to Rockline and not having the proper signage recommends that the report of the officer be placed on file. Discussion. This was the communication that was handled in public protection and safety. It was acted upon. It was handled. So we won't be handling the action. I don't know what we'll be handling. Let's see. Discussion was held regarding making Rockline a truck route from the 14th Street East to accommodate people at Mayline and Rockline and convert the street back to two-way traffic. It was stated that prior to any action, Alderman Alderperson Sousha wishes to talk to Mayline and Rockline. Alderperson Sousha asked that the police continue to be contacted in regards to the truck issues. You're taking these all together separately? Well, this one is about the trucks and the other ones are building inspection. I'm doing the trucks. Alderman Serda. Thank you, Madam Chair. Just as a reminder, again, the reason why 1617 and 18 were brought to this committee is not so much like you said, addressing the certain items. It was courtesy that wasn't given and extended to citizen Steinhardt. And that's why we've asked her to come here tonight to give her that opportunity to speak. And that's why this is here. Are you asking her to speak on this particular RC? I was assuming that you had that same impression. Ms. Steinhardt, would you like to address us about how you felt? Well, this will cover the three agenda items because you're going to speak about how you felt about the agenda items at the time in which they were acted. I guess so. Okay. All right. Please proceed. I have a couple other letters from other neighbors as well to submit. I realize that they're a little late. They're just basically saying the same thing that these neighbors have said that they don't want things to change to go back to the way they used to be. It is getting better. All we wanted was that Rockline be told to inform the dispatcher to let them know so they wouldn't keep coming down because as Marcia said, as Mary said, these truck drivers are still getting the directions. Even last Friday, even today, we've seen them.  And, you know, yes, we have called the police and yes, the neighbors are coming out and trying to address the drivers and stuff. It's just that they can't... The driver that I spoke to and the police officer that I spoke to the day when I called, they said, why don't we... why don't you quit picking on the drivers and ask the city to fix the signage is what the driver asked me. Because he's not from Sheboygan, he had no idea how to get down to Rockline any other way. And, you know, I'm like, you're right. How would you know if you went down to Indiana Avenue, there's no signs to tell him where the dock is, even though it's only a half a block from Indiana Avenue. There's just no signs. So, you know, I felt kind of bad for the driver and so did the officer. And we both said this driver shouldn't get a ticket. Rockline should, for giving them the wrong directions. I don't know if they ever did. I don't know what the officer did. You know, I didn't follow up and find out any of that information, but as you can see, the neighbors are saying that they're still coming down the road. And I was just there to pass along the information that my neighbors have told me. That's why I brought the letters and that's why, you know, these people are here. Some of my friends are here that, you know, and some other neighbors are here that, and my daughter's here, that they all are being affected by this.  And it's, you know, we just, we just don't want it to go backwards and be opened up to truck drivers where actually it's unsafe for these drivers to go the way they're going. So, you know, I just basically wanted to say, you know, I think it's getting better. It's much better than it used to be. There's just, there's one little miscommunication or one little problem left to handle, and then it'll be fine, you know. Thank you, Ms. Steiner. What is that little problem? And that was like the truck issue. I don't know as far as the garbage issues and the repair issues, you know. We've gotten your communications. Those two, they're still occurring. There's still, you know, lots of problems that way.  And, you know, I'm not saying nobody's doing their job or anything like that. I'm just saying if we eliminate, you know, if we try to handle and make these landlords take responsibility for their properties, if one or two of them have to, the rest of the neighborhood will get the idea that they have to as well. Instead of in reverse is what's happening right now, is one or two think it's okay to dump their garbage everywhere. Everybody's doing it. And they all get away with it. So they're thinking this is great. We can throw it anywhere. And like Marcia said, we have to pick it up. You know, we have to deal with it all the time. And all we're asking is that, you know, we just get a little bit of help in that. That's pretty much the whole issues.  And Mayor Perez even said in May that this is all going to be taken care of. I've got an article, Schwagen Press article, that this was all going to be taken care of. And I'm just hoping that it'll be, you know, wiped out more entirely instead of like one by one. And, you know, it's just, it's not, it's not going as well as we had hoped, I guess. That's all. Thank you, Ms. Steinhardt. Thank you. Alderman Segali. Thank you, Madam Chair. I guess the main thing about all of this that what took place at the Public Protection and Safety Meeting, and I would like to hear the tape that was, I would like to hear, I would like to have everyone and the council members hear what went on at that meeting that Tom Gina was upset about. So I would like to have it played, please. We don't have a, we don't have a player. Otherwise we certainly might, we do. Oh, good. Good. Let's play it. Thank you. Alderman Van Akron wants to say something. Alderman Van Akron. Alderman Van Akron, yes. Your Honor, these three items were brought in because of what happened at the Protection and Safety. Right, right, right. She was denied three times not to speak because she didn't raise her hand is what they're telling me. But yet she asked three times, can I speak? And she said, I will tell you when you can speak and you will hear. Let's listen, let's listen. Is that in front of the microphone though? It's going to bring it down. Can we turn the microphone so it will pick it up? Do you have the tape? Thank you. Thank you. Welcome all of you to the meeting. And to those of you that have never been to before, you're welcome to stay for the entire meeting or answer your items in the process. And you're welcome to do that at the time. Quite often people come and go, so it's really a great opportunity to be a member of the team. Thank you. Good afternoon. I want to gain a motion to approve the minutes from the previous meeting. I move. Second. All in favor, say aye. Aye. We have a vote signed. Motion carries. And I'd also like to entertain a motion to amend the minutes from the July 20th meeting. A motion to add motion carried all on meeting minute notes on July 20th. All in favor, say aye. Aye. We have a vote signed. All opposed, motion passes. Two on the agenda for 506 from Union of Steinhardt. Regarding houses in desperate need of repairs such as windows missing, a roof that has fallen down, et cetera. And if the owners of the property were to take care of the problem in the spring of this year and nothing has been done, an item number two, RL number 2290506 from Union of Steinhardt, regarding the ongoing case, you would garbage being allowed to pile up in backyards on porches, stuck between garages in her neighborhood. One of you two gentlemen could you tell us a little bit about the two windows from the rough problems that you saw on the building inspection? Hi. As far as I'm concerned, I don't know, we don't have an address for that. It's not seen. Have you been told on that? That was, that was in thinking 13, 20... This is my room. Find a built window. That's in the backyard. We did get all that cleaned up. In the middle, I didn't get back to see if windows was repaired or not. It was like a storm window in the house. And it was last year. We'd worked on getting the, and then the, the bulletin camp that we moved this week, after my thing down with the guy, we had, it was free of the year, it was just thought to get it out. He had an excuse for that. Then through the summer, I got in, I didn't get back to it. We didn't get back to it, just the past couple weeks. And if you wanted another week, six weeks, then no, if you have it in there, by this evening, you're going to receive a citation on it. Then in half an hour, it's gone. Citation. Okay. What about the pile of the backyard's porches? Okay, that was, that was one particular neighborhood that we did. Now I, trying to keep on it, I, and I've only been the housing inspector for a little over that year. So I, it outweighs the rest of the city, even for head fires, just to treat the community health. We did pick up washer, dryer, refrigerator, out of the backyard. I've been keeping an eye. In fact, I've been at that particular residence three times within a year. So I'm, I'm just trying to keep up, trying to keep on it. The owner receives the bills on the city every time that stuff happens. That's correct. Yep. The owner, the owner never responds to, just go into the whole weekend. And it might, and I have to admit, it might go another week before I do get a, a chance to get a garden shutter, but, but we do get it picked up. It's really. Well, it's a big city to take care of, I'm sure, it takes time. It's like. And let's see, what I think is, as far as building inspections, you know, we've gotten so many calls on that area. And one broken window does not constitute a window. We have to deal with the issues. A broken window is certainly, it should be repaired, but we're dealing with uses. Backyards, cars, parking, backyards, garbage, and everything like that. And we've spent just an inordinate amount of time in that neighborhood, particularly because we get complaints, and I've seen it so many times. We don't, we haven't done seven or eight pickups in the city. We have 200 miles of streets across the alley to take care of 15,000 dwellers. There's no way that we shouldn't spend that much time in that area. And we, we walked it today, a couple of our men and, uh, three officers went with us. We walked the entire area together, and there was nothing other than, um, we found a washer and dryer in the backyard, but within a day, things change because that is a rental area. There are landlords, landlords and tenants moving in and out, and a lot of minorities who don't understand some of the issues, um, picking up garbage. As a matter of fact, when Dean and I were yesterday looking at this, um, they had a bunch of garbage piled in the alley, and we actually talked to the person who didn't understand the American response, he found someone who didn't can be moved to something in the alley, but it's still in the yard, but well, the part of that is that it's a breath when they're kind of deep and watching that, but there are a lot of other areas that are much worse than that, but I think we've done too much of our safe resources on one area just because it's a complaint from the beginning, and I don't think it's really about that, and we walked up and down the street today and we find nothing wrong with any part of that alley on either side of the alley. So, um, I don't know how to deal with the situation anymore, other than we've done everything that we possibly can, but the situation is occasionally routine. We just find a band and car that was very yesterday, so are you getting complaints from multiple neighbors in that neighborhood? No. Or is it just primarily from the Chinese? We haven't had this far as I know, we haven't had any complaints from neighbors on this street. Here, please. If you don't have the floor, excuse me, you don't have the floor. I'm the chairperson and I will see when you, I don't know, please. As far as I know, and Dean, have you got anyone from any other, please? Not that I use your fault. And by any chance do you have a resource list available from the community? Yes, I do. I got one from the big building section and it says building on the right-hand side of the street department and sometimes I think it's mostly an idea with all the complaints that they should be having performed on the right-hand side of the street department. Great. Ms. Stanghart, where to direct your concerns? Rather than send an e-mail out to everybody under the sun at the right-hand side of the street department, it sounds like we are spending thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars, a taxpayer's money on your complaints. And if there is something worthy of investigation, that's what we need to hear about. But if these elements and these city employees are walking the streets and they find nothing wrong, we can't continue to allocate resources towards them. Responsive government employees if there is an employee that is not cooperative and if something does not get done in a timely fashion, that's going to happen overnight. We'll give them a couple weeks or months to accomplish it. Then I would like you to notify me of a particular employee that is in cooperating, because that's where we can come in and help. Other than that, I'll entertain a motion in regard to the address or where we have seen so many letters from you that we're comfortable that we know where you can. Excuse me, you don't have the floor to speak. You are welcome to attend the meeting. We have a motion in the second all in favor to file these. Aye. Aye. Chair, vote aye. Motion carries. Item number three, our own number 160506 from the chairman if I may do some phone calls about this issue. And I would like to ask Ryan Sadden if I could please return to the contractor. He's one of these kind of kind of gentlemen. These trucks coming in more or less, even though that would cause the mail line not walking. If the trucks coming in the mail line have to get to that district to get these trucks up 11 back behind the rock line and over to the mail line south dock. I believe that's how they get in. Is that how that works? I think that's the mail line. What does he do again? Is there nothing else? The reason I ask hard is because I do a little checking around. I went to the department. He's the biggest problem that they have and they've brought this to Ryan. He's going to write down Maryland Avenue in the direction coming south. It doesn't matter which way. It's Maryland Avenue large enough to handle the traffic. And we also have a situation where I personally wanted to accommodate the children over at Sheridan's school with the buses and the other who only follow traffic into the rock line area. I actually make a motion. Maryland is a front route from 14 degrees east to college. We've got made out of rock lines so that we don't have business untranslating and again rock line and mail frustrations a number of phone calls but they are receiving some significant points because I too followed up with both companies and when I spoke with rock liners we've been informing that 95% of the trucks that were on the list right by this time are actually going to Mayline. When I call Mayline to ask on what direction they're giving the operator who asked what they're doing with routing their trucks but one thing that everybody is in agreement with no matter who is giving the direction right now at the chance today in Maryland Avenue is not a truck route and the only people that have power to stop the trucks from going down there would be the police station and issue situations and then the message will get out loud and clear that at this one time you can't go down 7th Street's wrong way and I get to 7th Street and I realize it's one way street I'm not going to turn it down and if I do I deserve the ticket because I'm breaking the lock going down the wrong way. So I would ask that the police continue to be contacted in regards to the trucks if they're going down there and right now I think first I'm going to take a motion on this panel I want to suggest the situation I'll favor holding that motion on a particular document if there are a motion to file I don't move second I'll be from this and second is defiled as a document all in favor to be denied aye all opposed well I just have one question about the Maryland Avenue isn't graded through the ambulance as in like you know there's different grades of concrete for different ways we have coming about here we've got to replace the street right away it's kind of a piece of course but thank you for being here right up number four Alderman Ben Akron thank you on it you see on it speaking there that she has asked to speak three times she didn't raise her hands what they're saying and also the first time she wanted to speak she was going to give her the address of the house they were looking for which neither one of the two inspectors could find the second time it was speaking I don't remember what it was if it was the boats and that in backyard well I went back there today and I had to tell you the boats back in the yard and also I went down the street where you went three times in front of that house today again that's the fourth time now something has to be done if you keep going there and going there and keep doing it we've got to hit them with it we can't just keep saying well we're not going to go back we don't have time she was denied to speak three times at this meeting I know that the chairman has the right to do that but then don't tell me we got open government and the citizens thank you Alderman Ben Ackerman any further discussion on this? Alderman Graf for the record could I have your name I'm sorry and your address thank you Alderman Sousha thank you madam chairperson since I was the chairperson of that committee I just wanted to just share a little bit about what transpired there I know that the tape was very fuzzy and probably difficult for many to hear as far as the setup of the room no where the third floor conference room was the committee is set up up at the front of the up where the comfortable chairs are up at the front of the room and the rest of the building inspectors of police that attend they all sit at the table with the committee and along the sides of the room you have the chairs where the public is usually welcome to sit and I received a complaint when I was on maternity leave I received several complaints from elder people and the general public on attending the public protection and safety meetings they complained that Ms. Steinhart was allowed to sit at the table as if she were a committee member and I also received complaints that she was constantly interrupting and not raising her hand and contributing to every aspect that was on the agenda as if she was a committee member so when she started interrupting the meeting after her second interruption I did make it clear I said excuse me you do not have the floor shortly after that she was told again excuse me you do not have the floor I took two rules of order I took two quotes out of Robert's rules the first quote is once a member has been recognized he has been granted the floor and another member may not interrupt him and another section of Robert's rules says that no other member may interrupt or call out remarks without being out of order the presiding officer should remind such a member that the floor has been assigned and request that his remarks be held well after somebody interrupts the meeting that I'm running five times there were five interruptions by Miss Steinhardt not always picked up on the tape because the microphone was up by the committee near the front of the table and she was sitting perhaps eight feet away in the side chairs over by the windows and of course that was after Alderperson Radke had asked her at this particular meeting to move to the side chairs so after somebody interrupted the meeting five times no she was not granted the floor to speak if you heard on the tape after they were done talking about the trucks Mr. Cooner rose his hand he was called on he asked a question about whether the street was graded properly and is it my mistake for not telling her to raise her hand after five times I say excuse me you do not have the floor I assume that she understood what she had to do and if I made the mistake of not clearly stating you must raise your hand rather than you don't have the floor you know then that's my fault but you know she comes to these meetings she knows when it's appropriate to talk about inappropriate times so those are some of the comments I wanted to make in regards to the truck issue I know that she also typed up a letter right after this meeting saying that I've never responded to any of her emails or messages and I've ignored her and that's not true and you can easily check her computer my computer I've written to her several times encouraging her every time a truck goes down her street that's not supposed to be there she needs to call the police and if she's the spokesperson for the community she's funneling this information back to the people in the neighborhood because that would be the responsibility if she is their spokesperson because it's imperative the public protection and safety committee cannot issue citations the building inspectors they can't do it it's only the police they need to call the police every time a truck goes by provide the correct information the type of trucks license plate et cetera and then the police will come and do the citation I would encourage the citizens to stop flagging down trucks because I'm concerned that you might get into the trucks and that would be the worst thing that could possibly happen so after sending several emails back and forth she did respond as she did tonight by saying that she still feels that it should be the businesses that receive the citation well that's not how the law works if I'm driving the truck and I'm going down the wrong way I deserve the citation you cannot give a citation to the person who may or may not have given me the directions on which way to go so I want to be real clear right now that it needs to be reported to the police department and one of the concerns that I have and I expressed it again in the tape as you heard is that when she sends out these emails it's not just going to me and it's not just going to the police officers it's going to public works it's going to the building inspectors there are usually 10 to 30 people on each email that goes out and many of us do follow up and what's happening with some of the businesses down there here tonight the majority of the trucks that are going down that street are going to Mayline and what's happening is the last time I spoke with Mayline and Rockline they are getting extremely frustrated because I'm not the only person calling there are other older people calling and following up on the same situations then you've got building inspection calling you've got the police department you've got public works we're all calling these businesses when ultimately these businesses are not driving the trucks that I do I said how do you write route the trucks she said straight down Maryland I said that's not a truck route and she said she wasn't aware with it and she where of that and she promised to stop routing trucks straight down Maryland so I think that's going to solve the majority of the problems because if there Mayline trucks and the operators giving the directions she now knows she can't route them that way and then we also spoke a hundred emails if not more since the first of the year if you send it to ten different people at a minimal that's a thousand contacts within the city government that have been contacted about these issues and when you have all these people trying to follow up on these issues you're running into a great expense not to mention a duplication of services so what was provided to her at that meeting was we had Ryan from public works put together a comprehensive list a resource list so when she has an issue with tall grass specifically who to call when she's got a concern about garbage in the street she knows who to call and it's a resource that should help her funnel her concerns to the right people so we don't have a bunch of different people working on the same project independently so I think in the end everything is going to work more smoothly from here on out and I certainly hope she's shared the resource list also with her neighbors so in case they do want to start calling they know specifically where to go with what concern thank you Susan I was part of that committee meeting that night I thought the committee handled the complaints that she had very effectively everyone was definitely addressed and I agree with your statement that we do know how Miss Steinhard feels about these things we've heard about them many times thank you your honor thank you madam chair I'm a little concerned about the term open government being thrown around so I wanted to make three points from what I gather from the tape one is that there's a concern that there's a lot of garbage and it keeps repeating itself I believe tonight we've talked about that there's been a lot of progress done keeping in mind our city inspectors have the entire city to cover not just one neighborhood in my mind they're under staff and they're over work and underpaid and they have so much work to do I applaud them for the amount of work they're able to cram in one day I think they might be putting in the 13 hours a day that I'm putting in the other issue deals with the trucks continuously ignoring the no truck allowed signs or whatever those signs are there I think that issue has been cleared tonight also all the neighbors have to do is report it to the police the police should be in a position to issue citations I agree with Alderman Sushia that citizens should not be running in front of trucks then we're going to create another problem where there isn't one the final point that I issue that I see extracted from that I can extract from this tape tonight is that being chair of a committee is a very important role a chair has to be able and we must allow a chair to maintain control this is not the first time I've been in Alderman for four years and I think some of the Alderman present here have been longer than me in every couple of times especially when people were interrupted that never became an issue then I would hope that citizens who are watching tonight are able to learn that if they would like to speak to any committee meetings and in particular city council meetings that they need to be recognized first I did talk to a police officer who was present during a meeting and he assured me that Alderman Sushia as chair had handled herself magnificently had done a great job and had maintained order he also informed me that at the end which we weren't able to listen to because the table was picked up and taken away a little quicker quickly that Miss Steinhard left and slammed the door so hard the glass almost broke and I was told that if that glass had broken she would have gotten a disorderly conduct citation for that so what I'm trying to say is that if we come in there with a mindset of being disruptive we're not going to get anywhere I think all of us with citizens need to come in and say may I speak there's nothing wrong with doing that we need to maintain order Robert rules of order is what we follow the day we stop following that there's going to be chaos no order we're not going to know which way to go thank you thank you Your Honor Mr. Sazma I think you have brought that list of information numbers along could you pass them out to the council so everybody in council knows the information that was provided to Ms. Steiner is there anything further that you would like to add Mr. Sazma no that's just that's just the same list I handed out protection safety meeting it's like a like Alderman Sushis said it's all the way from cutting grass to rental park to annexations to traffic citations thank you thank you so much Alderman Cigali thank you Madam Chair the one thing that bothered me about what Alderman was saying was that I don't feel as all the people we have any right to tell our constituents who and who they cannot email if she wants to email the whole city if she voyages with her problems I think they as citizens and taxpayers they have the right to do that then we as Alderman really can't decide for them who and who they cannot email I agree she can't certainly she can't be prohibited from but it would be a very effective suggestion to do it this way I think this would be more effective thank you Alderman Cigali Alderman Van Akron Your Honor I mean Madam Chairman I heard the mayor talking here and he said he never heard of one I've heard of one it used to be said a law in life and it was J and L Manard refused to let a person speak on an issue one night one meeting after that the week later that person from the mayor was told that she could speak and she had them speak in that forum I don't have the quorum on which she runs it but when you tell people that they cannot speak and you tell them to go to a list like this that you're handing out how many times have they called that list and say to call your Alderman plenty of times I've got calls from people saying I call this one I call that one call your Alderman so where does it end up by your Alderman I have no problem with anybody calling their Alderman I make the communication she sends it to me I bring it in it goes through the clerk she says where it goes that's where it goes she's on the document she should be able to speak I feel that this committee already in the beginning has told her that she's not going to speak all the way through I had the feeling that she was not going to be able to talk at this meeting and that's the way I felt thank you Alderman I heard this oh I'm sorry and another thing this one that we held they say on there that they were never contacted by any other persons in that area for anything you look on your papers you got explain yourself Alderman Backer and what did you say? the one that you said that I held on here oh yes yes right they say on there if you listen to the tape they say that they were never contacted by anybody and he even asked Dean if he was ever accounted by anybody else only Steiner that is not true because you got a on your papers today you got where one has counted them six months ago on the same window so don't tell me that it isn't the whole area that she's she's speaking for the whole area because they made her smoke person now she's getting knocked down for that I see her she's doing a good job I went through it her day again I can tell you this boat that was supposed to be moved is back there that one day went by three times if you're going to forget it's going to be right back where we started a year and a half ago this hasn't been going on for six a month I don't know how many times Alderman I have never found out I have never seen her I'm there once a week going through that same area good for you and it changes every day I didn't mean it changes so I feel if she's got the right to call me if nobody else wants to listen to her I will listen to her and I'll keep her in all the communication she wants good for you good for you thank you Alderman van Ackeren Alderman van der Wiel thank you madam chair I agree with the mayor that building inspection is under staff and they bring in revenue so I've always been in favor of having more building inspectors I also agree with the mayor that we need to follow Robert's rules of orders as there be chaos but the average citizen doesn't always know Robert's rules of orders so sometimes we have to teach them and help them and show them what we expect that's all thank you thank you Alderman van der Wiel thank you madam chair okay I sympathize a lot with Gina and the neighborhood there because I've been fighting a fight for 15 years and I've been fighting the guy that lives on 13th or on 13th in New Jersey but since Matt and the inspection department got a little bit more teeth where they can issue citations it's turning this guy around but me and my wife on Matt on Dean on Pat constantly calling him but they were they were there and now this guy is starting to turn around and now that all this other stuff has been hashed out tonight and brought out into the public everybody seems to be getting a bigger smile on their face everybody looks a lot happier than they were when they first came in here so let's end the evening on a nice note and everybody be joyful thank you Alderman Burke Alderman Graham Madam chair I would move to file 16, 17 and 18 along with 14 do you have a second on that motion any discussion on the motion to file those communications Alderman Susha I was just wondering if building inspection had anything they wanted to add yes they're going to give us some information of what the work that they do and this takes us to there are the end of the agenda but not the end of our meeting because we're going to listen to building inspection thank you Alderman Susha Alderman Serda thank you madam chair I just want to respond to some of the concerns or it was brought up Miss Steinhardt's inappropriate conduct if you listen to the tape her inappropriate conduct is when she asked can I speak yet when she was told that she wasn't recognized by the chair she cooperated and again I would reiterate like Alderman Van der Wille that I hope we're not expecting that the citizens come here and be well versed in the Robert's Rules of Order if we just need to as chairperson just do house rules before we begin I think that would be helpful secondly it has been said about Gina Steinhardt she has been reminded that she could have cost the city thousands if not tens of thousand dollars but it was pointed out at a meeting that her neighborhood is not the only neighborhood like this in Sheboygan and that there's many others that are worse but I believe it was Alderman Van Akker who had said but you know what I bet you all of them wish they had a Gina Steinhardt in their neighborhood because of her persistence in combination with building inspection that you've seen the results that you have there today she has not forgotten of her neighborhood and she will continue I don't want to send a message to citizens that when you come back and you're persistent that you're considered to propel some so I wanted to make that and lastly given Gina's neighborhood it is unique because I think we all agree even building inspection too I mean it's tiresome because the week that they are not there or watching it it's like the garbage comes back immediately that's all I like to say thank you Alderman Serta Alderman Vanderweel thank you Madam Chair I would love to hear about building inspection presentation but I'm concerned that it's not on the agenda I would ask Attorney McLean if we can still view this even though it's not on the agenda it refers directly to what's going on this evening I wasn't aware that it was directly to what was going on Attorney McLean but while we're waiting for Attorney McLean Alderman Berg yes thank you Madam Chairman I've just a thought I think we've had a good discussion and clearly there's frustration on both sides of the table I think that for me it would only be fair that we also offer to open the floor to Ms. Steinhardt if she has any comments at this time so I move to open the floor to Ms. Steinhardt following Attorney McLean's interpretation thank you Madam Chair I guess I would just say that I don't know what the inspector's going to talk about either but there certainly are items on the agenda that you're still dealing with I don't think you've filed them yet that address ongoing issues like garbage and various building inspection issues so to the extent that you know it's not 45 minutes or two hours of propaganda about how great the building inspection department is which is fine but you know I don't see anything wrong with it and I think it's covered by the agenda thank you Attorney McLean you have to vote on opening the floor to Gina well we can vote on opening the floor to Gina now or we can see the PowerPoint let's the motion before us is to open the floor oh the motion before us do we have a second on that motion yes you do any discussion on the motion to open the floor to Gina Steinhardt all those in favor signify by saying aye opposed I thought excuse me maybe pull it down a little bit further so we can hear you okay sorry I apologize if I did not understand the rules I always understood in this room there was a certain you know I guess order that it had to be taken and I didn't in the three years that I've come to meetings on the smaller committee levels nobody's ever told me where to sit where to do anything if I was on the agenda I wasn't even asked to raise my hand or anything I was just asked to speak and I had no idea that I was breaking any rules I'm very sorry if I was breaking any rules and if I have offended anybody by doing so I thought it was more of a conversational thing that's the way it was treated in the past years and I was never given any idea you know besides this particular meeting that I was doing anything inappropriate no one address I let them know what the address was and he said nobody else had contacted him and Betty had just called me right before the meeting and said that she contacted him three times and hadn't gotten got called back and as far as why it got to committee I don't know who gave it to committee and how things go like that I really don't have any control over it I emailed the people Sergeant Tarkovsky certain people had asked me to email them about the trucks like Chief Kirk said the date, the time the kind of truck all that kind of thing so that's what I was doing I was following up on exactly what people were asking me Dave Bebel asked me to let him know which addresses were a problem so did other elder people so I just assumed that since Renee was our elder person that she should be included I didn't mean to email anybody that didn't want it and if anybody doesn't want to receive an email from me please send me an email and I'll take you off my list I have no problem with that and I apologize if I've bothered anyone I don't know I would like to understand I guess how I've cost the city money when apparently since you heard in my neighbors and Don and everybody else that if there is a problem there I'm not making it up it's not you know just my issue it's not you know anything personal involved I have nothing to do with it personally I'm just passing on words from my neighbors and I don't know how I could have cost the city money by asking them to follow up on these things and since I did not hear from Dean repeatedly I did email Renee Don has a copy of that email I got an answer back from her on three different issues just call the police about the trucks issue never anything about Dean or what I should do or how I should handle it so I just assumed that I was doing the right thing again I'm sorry if I have done something wrong and you know like Mr. Vanderbilt said that or Ms. Sourda said it would have been helpful for me to have known what the directions were prior to the meeting because I had no idea I wasn't supposed to be more conversational and that's kind of why I have some letters from people that they couldn't come some people didn't even want to write letters or show up or anything because they were very upset about the way things were going and they didn't want to be involved because they were worried about the way I was being treated and they didn't want to get involved in that so you know I don't want to make things worse I wanted to make them better the whole idea was to try to help the neighborhood to help my area to help the children not to bother anybody so if I did instead of going you know and telling somebody else that I bothered them please email me or contact me yourself and I won't do it anymore thank you very much Gina thank you Ms. Steinhardt Chief Kerr I just want to just add a couple comments I think part of the problem is probably my philosophy on policing and I tell citizens to call call call as far as Gina I've asked Gina numerous times in my department to also copy me so I can double check to make sure that the matter's been addressed so with that even today Mayor as we drove around we went to look at Vanderbart you made a comment on a neighborhood that needs some attention and there's a lot of neighborhoods that need attention I wish to commend Gina on the attention that she's been asking for and for years we've been providing I think probably one of the best statements I hope you said this in a sense that I don't think we all know the Roberts rules of order when citizens come or maybe all the person Serta has mentioned that perhaps it needs to be mentioned I think that's probably a good lesson we're learning here is that the citizens when they come need to be informed now I was not there that night however I've been at others and I did speak to several older some of the lack of control that we were noticing I give Alderman Sushia credit for taking charge yet at the same time I think we have to remember that when we invite someone to come to a meeting that they're allowed to speak so thank you very much thank you Matt Livingston are you getting prepared? I'm ready okay Marge Sagale would you like to say one quick thing before Matt Livingston gives us some information? Madam Chair I think it's a very sad day in this council chamber is one of our citizens who has tried so hard to do so much for her neighborhood to stand up at that podium and have to apologize for trying to do a good job this is just a very sad day thank you Alderman Sagale Mr. Livingston and Larry Hilbelink Good evening thank you members I know it's getting late but I would ask that you indulge just a few minutes in a PowerPoint presentation I'm sure we're all aware after tonight of the issues regarding Maryland Avenue and I thought there was probably no better way to handle the situation than to take our digital camera and just go up and down the alle up and down the street and just take a quick snapshot of this neighborhood compared to at the end a few other neighborhoods in the city Dean has been here for the first 28 times to do inspections I've been there myself 18 times over different issues so it's not like we haven't been in this area we have been really policing this but as we heard before there's 15,000 dwelling units in the city so I think we truly have given this an inordinate amount of time if we see what we have to look at in this area so what I would like to do is this was August 22nd like I said you realize this is one snapshot in time Alderman Van Ackeren is correct the boat is back last week it wasn't there tomorrow that owner will get a $200 citation in the mail because he did put that boat back so we did give him adequate warning we wrote him letters he did move it and now he defied that order so he will get a citation tomorrow in the mail just to clarify that that will be taking place what I'd like to do is if you have any questions as you go along just feel free to stop us and talk to us and ask questions because I think that's going to be the best way that you find building inspections perspective of what is happening in this neighborhood so Dean hello I'm my Dean Heslink I'm the housing inspector for the city as Larry has stated this is August 22nd and as Alderman Van Ackeren stated he goes there once a week and I can attest to that it's at any given time I can I can go into any one of these neighborhoods and it can be totally different the day as it was the day before as you can see here we do have snapshots from this is up and down Maryland Avenue and up and down New Jersey Avenue we do have a camper in a motor home in the back alley here this is in the back of Maryland Avenue we do have we do have a abandoned car here and alongside the garage and this again was August 22nd hit now if we go there if we go there tomorrow the camper I'm sure is going to be there the motor home I I have to speak with this gentleman again he did say something about having some kind of appeal if he appealed this or something that he could have that motor home there I have to check in on that again I did speak with him last fall and he did he did say something about having some type of appeal or something I being new to this job I will definitely check into it and if he does not have the right to have this thing there I will check in on that again these are is the back of the homes right behind right across the street from Gina's house I think it was two weeks after I started this this job I went here and I picked up I think it was a stove two refrigerators and maybe a dryer out of the backyard now since then it has been it has been pretty good across the street there is a little bit of garbage here in there but we do catch up on we do have a trailer for a few weeks we are going to have to also get on this gentleman he is on 14 street this particular I can't exactly place this one oh it is across the street from Gina this is this is on Maryland Avenue right right right yeah here too this is excuse me I'm sure what is wrong with this picture I mean it looks you know to me again there is there is nothing wrong with this picture there we were just going through Gina's neighborhood this was again I got to remind you it is August 22 we could have gone there August 27 and it could have been totally different this particular is next door to Gina this is Kevin Neyheis owns this property I am working on him on the roof he he does have some shingles coming off of this particular property and it is a bad roof I have talked to Kevin about it he said he can't afford to put a roof on right now but he says he swears he does not have any leaks in the house and me not being able to be invited into this place to inspect it so I have to take his word for it but he did assure me that as soon as he could afford it he would be getting a roof on this on this residence here another is another alley this used to have a bunch of brush along the side of it it is cleared up service garage has come and cleaned it all up here again is the brush on the side it used to be hanging over people I had complaints on the side of their cars actually the owner of this building cleaned this up if I remember right Larry here is the back alley I believe this is in the backyard of Gina's house this particular slide here is the back alley of Maryland avenue on the south side this residence is building a building this particular occupant the building materials there as long as he has a building permit he is permitted to have these on his property this is the dreaded boat and camper situation we did get it cleaned out as you can see it is parked up on the driveway the camper as far as the boat this was a picture of today if I recall right the boat is back this particular landlord will have a citation in the mail tomorrow I just wanted to make a statement for 1312 Maryland if I could okay go ahead thank you madam chair I walked through today and that picture was taken August 22nd and today at 1312 Maryland there's just tons of garbage in front of it so that just shows how fast things change there thank you okay it could be I I have to admit I've been down to your alley here which is on the south side of Maryland Avenue I did not get a chance to get on the north side of Maryland Avenue today this as you can see there was a smashed up firebird vehicle in the yard here on August 22nd today the vehicle is gone I don't think they drove that one out of there here too we do have a lot of people that do keep their lawns up very nice this happens to be along 14th street it appears the corner of New Jersey and this particular I can't exactly picture where this one is that's the south side okay yeah it's there we do have a trailer parked in the yard and there we have vehicles on the lawn we can't we can't tolerate that it has to have concrete underneath here is I can't picture that one either okay this is south 13th street this is the corner of south 13th in Maryland he does have garbage cans out in the front it looks like he has some kind of cooker out there or something maybe for fish now if you look on the south side of that porch there is a commode sitting there it probably shouldn't be some people use them for flower pots and I can't do anything about that here too we got flower pots we have it looks like maybe a bicycle sitting along the now if there's children's toys outside if there's bicycles if there's you know things that can be outside we do allow that here is the north side of Maryland Avenue in the back it's actually the back side of New Jersey this was the day that Larry and I were walking down there this is a mung family and we did communicate with them we finally found one that could speak English and we told them it had to be removed and now you can see the items are removed the backyard is clean and this was just word of mouth we happened to pick them up and talk to them now this particular place this was August 22nd again the backyard has quite a bit of stuff about a week after that picture was taken August 22nd I came in I came in the back we had a complaint and the whole backyard was just full of garbage and the gentleman was cleaning out his basement and as soon as he came around he said are you from the city and I said I'm clean by the end of the day and today this is the way it looks it just takes a little bit of priding once in a while now this gentleman was cleaning his basement he was telling the truth and he did clean it up and it does look nice so we do have people that do conform to the ordinances if we have to are asked and now here we're getting into looks like a pickup truck in the boat looks like a boat This has to be on concrete Or we do have a zoning ordinance that says it has to be on concrete, so we will be getting that Just like the camper in the boat on the on the other on the other alley As you can see we do have some stuff we got a bicycle in the front yard here, we've got a few plants We do have outside Fixtures on the front porch that that can be outside. It looks maybe like it's Kind of upset a little bit, but it it is actually outside items This is actually a really old home this is I Believe if I remember right it was from the 1800s. It really is actually a Pretty nice looking home for the age Here's another I believe this is off of south 14th It really is not a real terrible looking neighborhood we'd On this particular day we we did Here we have mr. Nyhuis's roof which I had explained about before It is there is moss growing on it. There's There there are pieces that look like they are coming off the roof Now this is the house directly next door to mr. Nyhuis and As you can see we do have problems on that roof too, so we do We do have to get that addressed also here. We have the The east side of south 13th Street along Mayline's property we did the the mayor and Building inspection has met with at least four or five people from the from the Mayline company We asked that they did address their their problems along south 13th Street And as you can see they have been working very diligently on it the The shrubbery has been taken down the brush it is looking Much better than what it did before They they are working To clean this up now. I do have a I do have a complaint way on the On Maryland Avenue right alongside of Maryland Avenue and the corner of 13th. I There is some grasses that long grass growing back there yet that I do have to address so We are we are going to be working with Mayline on that but but Mayline has been has been cooperating ever since our meeting with with the mayor, so I Along with that I'm going to present Yes, thank you madam chair Did Mayline fix that hole No Now that's that's that's a varied interest. I mean that's enough for a Adult to fall into and it's right off that sidewalk and the kids could just fall right into it That's that's a very dangerous situation there I guess I should readdress myself following Sigal the last time I looked it was not fixed. I I was probably a Month ago that I that I actually walked the sidewalk and took a look But and I did I did look for that particular one and and it was not addressed yet So I will Definitely check on that Right, we're gonna I'm gonna let Matt take over Dean that's gonna be a left click there I'm gonna address Left I'm just going to address this part of the the presentation on some of the things that we do That not only applies to this neighborhood, but applies to city-wide We do get inside some of the homes in tenetability situations and this is certainly one of them Next picture, please This is a basement entirely packed wall-to-wall Florida ceiling This is a backyard. This is also in this neighborhood. This is at 1422, Illinois Avenue This one I personally in the past three years have picked up Four or five times When we get complaints on on garbage typically this is what we end up seeing It Remarkably situations like this You would think there would be a prompt a response, you know from citizens in that area We don't normally patrol these areas, but when you do get a complaint a garbage complaint. This is sometimes what we find Now this owner here will get charged. There's an extra fee for the refrigerator any refrigerators air conditioners Dehumidifiers those are I believe a hundred dollars a piece for disposal and we do charge them for that the cost of the pickup Plus 50% Mr. Livingston whereabouts in Sheboygan are these photos taken that one the lat the previous photo was on North 11th Street. This one here Came in as a is just a minor complaint someone complained about garbage on South 7th Street, and this is what we found This was a homeowner doing some remodeling project in the neighborhood helped themselves to their dumpster this is another example of Tenants had moved out more tenants had moved in and didn't appreciate the furnishings that the previous tenants left So they placed them in the backyard This is on 1330, New York Avenue And I said to put it put this in perspective perspective a typical garbage complaints This is what we're seeing in more and more frequency and just everybody understands that previously the housing inspector Was Was supposed to do neighborhood Surveys Per the Common Council. We're surveying this neighborhood because someone felt it was in decline So they would pick out three or four block areas survey them right up the houses in it for you know for painting and maintenance issues Garbage issues vehicles and that type of thing for the past three years Our department has worked exclusively on complaints exclusively on a complaint basis South 10th Street This is another type of issue that we've had to deal with this isn't a structure And that's why a lot of the things that we take issue with cross a lot of lines Now is the building inspector supposed to look at this is the housing inspector supposed to look at this? Zoning administrator this inside this thing There's a large cabin cruiser and the structure was built around it so they could work on it in the winter the complaint came from the Tarps blowing up onto the power lines in fact He did take built part of the structure to move the the utilities above his building and that one has since been removed This was an apartment that we were called called to by the fire department This again was a complaint from an adjacent business. This is on South 7th Street this is Kentucky Avenue 727 Kentucky Avenue and Take note of the date on the bottom of this photograph June 14th of this year This the next date on this one June 23rd now We're doing the garbage pickup and this this place had a tremendous amount of debris Tyres you name it. It was in the backyard of this property. We sent the owners. We got no response We went ahead and conducted an abatement Note the bottom picture the time on the picture August 18th. This is the same property so what happens is most of the the things and and you had touched on that before and you know the committee members here that a lot of these are evolving because You can go there one day and the conditions are fine You can go there two days later two weeks later or even six weeks later and the conditions have changed dramatically In this in this case, they didn't change dramatically. They just went right back to where it was but We do need to hear that's how we get our information on these properties like this is is from all the persons From the citizens we get our information from the police the fire health department and and of course neighborhoods And it's important that they do call us that is important. That's how we find out about things like this, but Again as Larry had touched on There is 15,000 dwelling units in the city and We've got one full-time housing inspector and one part-time housing inspector You know to take care of all these complaints We do our best to get at it, but as you can see we have to prioritize our complaints This obviously would take precedence over a bag of garbage on the street Or a couch on a curb on a cul-de-sac or something like that We do have to prioritize this of course is going to get the higher priority some of the other complaints Again, we do strictly by complaint basis and that's why we have to follow through in this manner Thank You mr. Livingston. Thank you As you can see, oh, thank you As you can see by the last pictures that we showed on the screen when we consider Garbage in the neighborhood and garbage complaint. That's what we usually expect to find and Sometimes when we get complaints in the Maryland Avenue, we know what we're going to find because we've been there so many times And we may not prioritize it as we should have but because of our resources that we have we Just go by what's the most important at the time and we do always call back I think Miss Steinhardt said that we that someone tried to contact our office We do have answering machines when we're not in the office inspecting and we always call back Each one of us has an answering machine and we go when we get back in the office in the afternoon We always do call back But if the person is not home, we'll leave a message or if they don't have an answering machine, so I Think we've done a job in the Maryland Avenue as good as we possibly can and I Would ask Gina to continue to call us if there is a problem We will not We will definitely look at it. We'll drive through the area and if there's something we'll write it up Just like we did with the boat today that came back again, but we will continue to do the rest of the city So I'm open any questions if you have any and we really thank you for your your time tonight for listening to us And how we operate Thank You mr. Hillbilly Alderman Stephan, would you turn the lights up? Thanks All right Alderman graph Right, I think We didn't we need to vote on filing these communications. Is there any further communication any further conversation about these communications? Seeing none all in favor of filing I opposed Thank you Let's do that. Thank you a new territory for Sheboygan South that's for sure I'll play a game here, and they'll they'll get the kickoff right away Marty Alex Byer is the kicker for Nina