Paul expressed concern over some of the comments that were being made in the hallway in the back room and the cheering that was going on and the yelling and the clapping. And I was asked to ask people not to partake in that. And I think we can try that tonight to see how that goes. We all know that everybody gets excited over some issues and quite frankly that's the way I like it. We should get excited over issues. But it may just be a sign of disrespect or a different sign to someone who's trying to speak and doesn't get clapped and someone who is speaking and gets clapped and it's not really a good thing. So I would ask that you please cooperate with me and no clapping, no yelling, again no heckling. We have an issue before us tonight that's a good issue that will require some good debate. And I'd like to have the council be able to debate that without any interference. So we thank you for being here tonight. We appreciate your presence. We appreciate the people who are watching us tonight. And we're going to have a good meeting. Madam City Clerk, would you read your quotation? Thank you Mayor. You have not lived today until you have done something for someone who can never repay you. Thank you. Call the 6th regular meeting of the Common Council to order. Madam City Clerk, would you please call the roll? Warren. Burke. Serta. Davis. Graf. Hannah. Kittleson. Cleonis. Manny. Meyer. Montemayor. Radke. Ryan. Sushia. Excuse. Vanderweel. Anverhasselt. 15 present. Quarms present. Alderman Davis, would you please lead us in reciting the Pledge of Allegiance? The Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you Alderman Davis. The next item on the agenda is the approval of the minutes. President Burke. Yes, thank you Your Honor. I'd ask for approval of the minutes as entered on the record. Motion in second to approve the minutes. Under discussion. There being none. All those in favor, state aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Minutes stand to approve. Resignations. Attorney McLean. Thank you Your Honor. It's a letter or email to the mayor from Danverhasselt advising that with regret he's resigning from the park and forest record. I'd ask motion to accept and file. Motion to accept and file. Any discussion on that? All those in favor, state aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. And a letter to the mayor from Trig Jacobson advising that he's submitting his resignation from the Marine and Harbor committee in that he was the STC member appointee and he's recently resigned from the Sporgan Development Corporation. Thank you. Motion to accept and file. Motion to accept and file. Under discussion. Alderman Montemayor. Thank you Your Honor. When I opened my packet and these letters of resignation were included, I thought that's a good idea. I know we hear about them from the front, but I do like to see these letters of resignation and then the letters of the people you're going to confirm and Trig Jacobson's letter was on top. And I love his last paragraph.  You are a bright man with a good heart and I wish the best for you as you lead our great city. Thank you Trig Jacobson. Thank you Alderman Montemayor. Anybody else? All those in favor of the motion to accept and file say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. And for appointments, I submit the following appointment for your consideration. Thomas Leonard to be considered for appointment to the joint municipal court advisory committee as a representative for the village of Kohler whose term expires on 43008. And David Gass also to be considered for appointment to the joint municipal court advisory committee as a representative for the city of Shboygan whose term expires also on 43008 signed by the mayor. And those will lie over. There's a document in place today to add to more people. And Crystal Siebert to be considered for appointment to the Blue Harbor resort convention center committee to fill the unexpired term of Claudia Reinboldt whose term expires 43008. And Vicki Hall to be considered for appointment to the Board of Parks and Forestry to fill the unexpired term of Dan Verhasselt whose term expires 43007 signed by the mayor. And that will lie over. And Thomas Lebel to be considered for appointment to the Marine and Harbor committee to fill the unexpired term of Trig Jacobson whose term expires 43007 signed by the mayor. And that will lie over. And then there's a document with respect to the Metropolitan Law Enforcement Services Study Committee. President Berg. Yes, thank you. I moved to file a document. Motion to second file document. Any discussion? Paul von Montemayor. Thank you, Your Honor. I know that we're not doing this Metropolitan Law Enforcement Study. However, this was such a good committee mixture. Can we use some of them, all of them as part of the studying with the county or is that already set? We're going to be looking at President Berg and I are going to be looking at maybe putting together a committee with the same combination of people. You're absolutely right. I think that's a great combination of people. Thank you. Alderman Hanna. Mayor Perez, I wanted to echo also that that's a great committee that you put together there and I'd like to see that as part of the shared services committee. That's the right direction to go. Thank you, Alderman Hanna. Anything else? Okay, so we have a motion to file. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Thank you, Attorney McLean. Public forum. City Clerk. Yes, first on the list is Chris Velasi. Chris, can I get your home address please? 1125 Kentucky Avenue. Kentucky? And you will have five minutes, sir. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it very much. Second time I spoke to you folks the last couple of weeks. Pretty important stuff. Well, where do we start? We start at Sheridan Park. We start at 23rd Street. We go out of Vandervaart. Go to City Hall. Well, I think about it every day and we talk to people every day. Obviously, you 15 people here, you have a big choice to make today. I said it last week. Mrs. Clayhunis had said that we need to look at all the information that we get before we make decisions. The fiscal responsibility of you folks for us 50, 60 years down the road for our kids lies today. This is where we have to make our decisions. It's really not in best interest of the city to spend a lot of money now for later. We've wasted a lot of money. For this purpose. Alderman Serta and Ryan are going to propose a resolution tonight that I've already talked to an alderman about it and their mind is made up. That's wrong. I'm sorry. That's outright wrong. You don't make up your mind before you hear the facts. That to me doesn't sit well. The other thing that comes to mind is before we do anything, we have to rescind this one in any way, shape or form. Before you bring 23rd Street back in the fold, just like you did with Sheridan Park, you had to rescind that one to come to here to go to there to go to here. People aren't real happy with the fact that, you know, you think about it and you just were flip-flopping. People all over are hearing about this. You're flip-flopping from one to the other. Let's make up our mind. Okay. Don't play games with this, with that. We have to understand that 23rd Street really isn't fiscal responsibility. What better person to understand about cleanup than Alderman Ryan? He's in that kind of business because he's had, you know, his business, of course. When I was in business, it took a long time for my property to be cleaned up through the super fund. And as if I'm not mistaken, the bank would not give me the money for that property until they got the okay from the environmental study that it was safe to be sold. So if we have any problems over there, we're stuck for a long time. The other thing is that comes to mind is why is the county not giving us a guarantee that it's not their responsibility? It's sold as is? That's not right. Give them an option and say, listen, I want you to give us a guarantee that if this comes up, you pay for it, not us. That's very important. I remember the statement that you guys had a couple of weeks ago. Act as if the whole world is watching. Well, it's watching. It's watching carefully. And a lot of people are being watched. And you have to be careful because with that, with people watching you, you know, there's a lot of talk. And we have to understand that we have to come back with the fiscal responsibility like everybody talks about. Do not spend the money foolishly. It's not right for us. It's not right for our kids. Thank you. Thank you, Chris. Next on the list is Greg Wegemann. Greg, can you give me your home address, please? 3421 North 51st Street. North, I'm sorry? North 51st. North 51st. You may want to put the mic a little closer. And you will have five minutes. Thank you. Mr. Mayor, city council members, thank you for allowing me the time to address you. I am here speaking on behalf of the greater Sheboygan committee, which is a volunteer association of private citizens who are involved in creating, running and advising in the business community. One of our main goals is to work to enhance the efficiencies in government. It's our strong opinion that in this matter coming before you this evening concerning the future police station location is that the 23rd Street location is without equal. In 2005, two studies. One was conducted by Zimmerman design group. The other funded at considerable expense by local businessmen and conducted by Engman and Moyer said essentially that that the 23rd Street location is without question the best. If I may read you an excerpt from the Engman Moyer study with increasing demands for services to the public in the absence of corresponding increases in tax revenues to support them. Renewed attention is being focused upon efficiencies and economies which come with cooperative cooperative efforts between units of government. And it goes on to talk about how the state and office of the governor and a number of organizations have encouraged that type of cost sharing. And it goes on to talk about some of the cost sharing that the city and the county have already implemented, but the need for more. We agree. We'd like in this case and you look at these studies, the 23rd Street site was clearly the number one choice of the experts. This site allows the city to maximize current and future efforts towards sharing of services and cooperative ventures with the county. No other site. Selection studied offered as much in that regard. We understand that the vendor of our site may be offered again for consideration, but that matter was studied and both consultants ranked that property the poorest of the options. That it's consideration again will just muddy the waters. We you have before you a monumental opportunity before you to develop and strengthen the relationship between the city and county government do not let it slip away. We feel that this council rather than being criticized for wavering should be commended for being willing to write a poor past decision. It's time to listen to the experts and move on. So this project is not delayed. Thank you for your consideration. Thank you, Greg. Next will be Barb Zinski. Can I get your home address, please? And I'll spell my last name to T. U. S. Z. Y. N. S. K. I. Yes. Home address 2404 Silverleaf Lane, Sheboya, Wisconsin. Silverleaf. And you will have five minutes. Thank you. I'm not here representing Citizens for Responsible Government, but there is an organization out there similar to Mr. Wagemen's, but we appear to have different views. We do not represent big business. That group represents the common people, the taxpayers, and the community of Sheboygan. Citizens for Responsible Government's goal is accountability to the taxpayers through Responsible Government. They're kind of a watchdog group. People might have heard of them. They've been down in Milwaukee dealing with Amont, dealing with Piwaki. They have some concerns. I'm echoing some of those concerns this evening. I, too, have read the Moyer study. I, too, have read the Zimmerman study. Actually, there's a lot of different versions as to how people are interpreting this. The reality is there is not any one strong location. Some of the people here at City Hall, Mr. Holton and Ms. Enders recommended City Hall as the first location. But when you ask the Zimmerman people, Mr. Sabinash, his response is, it is your responsibility to take the information I give you to decide what you need to do with the political decision. We are finally, I think, hallelujah after 20, 30 years, towards the end of the road. We have had city leaders for a long time realizing there was a need for a new police station for this community. And it's for this community. It's not just for the police officers. It is for the long run. It is for making our community safer. And I'm hoping we are getting very close to the end. We have a resolution here by Alderman Serta and Ryan. I appreciate their work here saying, open it up to one other site. I don't think anybody in this room is saying, look at 42 other sites. Go back to what we had several years ago. But right now there is a resolution that's going to be coming to the Common Council to actually vote on going into a contract with the county to spend money to purchase that land. My concern is to be good stewards of this community and of its tax dollars. We need to go very carefully and very slowly. The best way to do this is through informed government. We have got new older people here. If you would just hold on a couple of weeks, have a chance to get information from Vandervaart because what I seem to hear, it's very preliminary. I understand. It's that the Vandervaart site might be a cheaper site. From what I understand from a lot of police officers, they prefer that site at the central location. It's easy access for people that come from outside our community. It'd be easier to get to that location. I have very serious reservations that the Common Council would move this quickly to buy basically a pig in a poke. We have no idea what the environmental impact is regarding that. When I talked to an older person today, both of them I believe have just had the preliminary study. We don't know what lies on that property. We already told last week it could be potentially a million dollars more to purchase that piece of land. I don't know why there was a rush to move ahead this quickly. If you look at the Vandervaart piece, contact the Vandervaart people. You'll get more information. If we are going to be good stewards, and I think that the mayor and this Common Council will be, they're not going to rush into this contract until we know what that land contains and who is going to be responsible for the cleanup. That's going to take a while to do. While you're doing that study, look at Vandervaart also and get that information. So then a few weeks from now, you will have all the information. We can compare apples to apples. You'll know how much money it costs. You'll know what the environmental impact is. You'll have some idea of what you're financing. You start to talk to the people who are loaning the money, and you move forward from that. Another concern, as I looked at this study that I thought was very interesting said confidential across it, it wasn't confidential. But the subheading is review of the proposed city of Sheboygan Police Facility. It's impact upon shared law enforcement services potential. The whole premise of this study was to determine the best location for shared services. Many of the shared services in this study no longer are on the table. The county has already moved forward on a number of these pieces. We don't need a large piece of land and a large building to have the municipal court. That's already taken care of. The county has already created some of the buildings that they need. But yet when I talked to all the people, I am told that what we need to do is look in the future for sharing because the facility that the county is currently using for their safety building is not large enough. So they're going to need something in the future. And I said, well, why are we making a termination for what the county needs? A few minutes later the conversation came up again saying that while they've got those sheds out there for working in their vehicles, they're going to have to close some of those down and they're going to need another location. And again, I said, isn't the common council's charge to do what's best for the city of Sheboygan? What's best for the city police department? What's best for this community? Why are we suddenly focusing on what the county's needs are? We don't know what the county wants to do five, 20, 30 years from now, but I have a very serious concern that that is what could be driving some members of this common council to do something that the county wants to do rather than what's best for our community. That's not the way we're supposed to be doing business. I understand that we all are part and parcel. We all pay county taxes. But this group of people should be looking out what's best for the city of Sheboygan. Is your five minutes? Do you need an extra minute? Could I have one more minute, please? Thank you. I'd like to take everybody's, I'd like to take time to thank everybody for this. I know it can be very contentious. I have faith in our common council, faith in our mayor's leadership. He's done a good job so far looking at some very complicated issues. Mayor, I'd say it's on your shoulders as far as what we do. I've heard some people say it's going to be a cost savings. Mr. Wegeman, I greatly disagree with you. Even if both of us are wrong, at this point, neither one of us knows. Until you investigate both of these sites fully, we're not going to know which is the better route. So I please ask this common council not to rush into anything quickly tonight. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Barb. Next is Tom Rathal. Tom, can I get your home address, please? 1617 North 24th. North 24th? Yes. Thank you. And you will have five minutes. Okay. I won't need that long. Okay. First off, I'd like to start by thanking Mayor Perez and the council members again for letting me speak to you concerning the 23rd Street site. As a choice for building the much needed police station, last year you were presented with a petition with over 130 names of concerned citizens that live in that area immediately that would be affected by your decision. While everyone signing that petition had varying reasons to do so, they signed with the belief that their concerns were valid and would have a conscientious bearing on your decision. The reasons were everything from costing almost a million more than the present chosen site, but that's not the only problem. It's part of the overall problem, potentially hidden costs in cleaning up and disposing of contaminated soil. But again, that's not the only problem. It's part of the problem. Added traffic and stop and go lights to the area, decrease in property value because of the traffic and the lights and the already heavy traffic on Superior Avenue with the addition of a municipal court which could run all times of the day and night. Again, it's not the only problem, but part of the overall problem. The potential for having undesirables drawn to the neighborhood because of the police department and the municipal court, but again, that's not the only problem. It's part of the overall problem. The loss to the city of the parking lot valued at today's cost of over a million dollars, not to mention loss of revenue of any dollar amount. Once again, it's not only the problem, but it's part of the overall problem. I think these 130 citizens deserve to have their concerns and feelings and opinions considered and honored. The council chose and voted last September of 2005 by a two thirds majority to build at this site, the present day location of the police department, which has served this community well for many years. The council made its decision, and I think they owe it to the citizens of Sheboygan to stick to that decision. Thank you very much. Thank you, Tom. And last is John Burner. John, can you give me your home address, please? 1919 Broadway. And you will have five minutes. Okay. Good evening, everyone. When this common council, well, not this common, when a common council met to take Sheridan Park off the books, they said the police station would be centrally located. To me, it was a scam from day one. They came upon City Hall. I told people never to be built on City Hall, 23rd Street. Somehow the county was promised there's somehow there's a deal here with 23rd Street. What I don't understand is the county had 14 acres of land at Sunny Ridge and some developers that were interested, it said 500,000, that's all it's worth. How in the heck can you get more for four acres? And it's not even four acres. I think the citizens have been conned. I think a lot of times when I watch this common council meeting, there's a council meeting. There are people in this council that know what they're going to vote. They know ahead of time. And then there's some that don't know what's going on. I mean, they don't know that it's a pre-range vote. It's all eyes except for a couple of days. I saw it in the last common council meeting. When you're on camera there and people from China only show your faces when somebody makes a decision that wasn't arranged to be voted that way, you should see your faces and the looks you give each other. I don't think you're fooling the people at all. I still say you represent the people. It is your job to figure out which site is the best and economical, economical for this city. And if you can't let the people decide, put it on a referendum. People are really getting fed up to a point that it might be time for a change in this council. Thank you. Thank you, John. And that's it. Thank you. I want to thank all the five people who spoke to the council tonight. Thank you for taking the time to address us with your concerns. A couple of things we want to talk about with the mayor's comments part of it. And one of them is a trip to Eswingen. And we had it on the agenda last time we met. I wanted to delay that because the issue was before 10. But I wanted to just mention a few things. And then I'd ask Alderman Groff and President Berg if they want to add anything to it or Alderman Meyer. All three were members of the delegation. But Oberbürgermeister, Dr. Juergen Zieger, asked that I extend his greetings to each and every one of you. And he asked that I thank you for the new and inspired relationship that he felt was beginning to form with our trip over there. As you know, it had been about, well, a little over 13 years that a mayor had not visited Eswingen as part of our sister city. And for a lot of us, we may say, well, so what? But I found out that they take it pretty serious. To them, it's a really serious relationship. The sister city partner stock is what they call it. And they take it pretty serious. So it was a time to rekindle friendships and a time of reaffirmation that we are committed to this type of relationship. Primarily because Cheboygan's roots and history is rich in German culture, we see traces of German architecture and design when we were in Eswingen. And it was amazing. They'd say, oh, that looks like our building over there in Cheboygan. And it was really a nice thing to see. We were treated very well. We were made to be felt, to feel at home. And it was just a wonderful time to meet with friends and talk about some of the things that they do. We weren't able to get into the nitty-gritty and all the details of their government. We were able to visit a few things, a few parts of the government there and talk to some people who were there. One interesting thing is that they don't have department heads per se as we have them. They have burgemeisters. And the burgemeister is a mayor. So there's a mayor of this area and a mayor of that area and a mayor of that area. And then the Oberburgemeister, which is, he oversees all of them, is the one that's the mayor. And that's the one that gets elected. I believe the other ones get appointed. I thought, I think. The interesting thing also was that Oberburgemeister, Dr. Jurgen Seeher, was only a resident of Esslingen for about six weeks before he got elected. And I said, that never happened in Schmuygen. But it happened there. And it was the dynamics, the interrelationships of the political interest groups, if I may call them that, was very unique. And there was traces of each one when they first met us and they met us with this huge band with the feather caps and trumpets and all the music. And it was really a phenomenal thing to see because you see these things in books, but you never see it in person. And that was the most interesting thing and the most exciting thing, at least from my standpoint. But as I said, we did get to talk a little bit about everything, about a lot of things, I should say. And if any alderman is particularly interested, I'd be glad to sit down with you and take some time to talk. And if you have any questions, then we can certainly discuss it further. At this time, I'd ask if any of the three aldermen to President Berg, Oldman Graf or Oldman Meyer, have anything to add? Cool, I may add before, before I forget. I must pay a compliment to President Berg. He astounded me. He surprised me with the German that he knows. I thought, wow, he was good. He was really good. People understood him, so it was good. President Berg. Unfortunately, when I speak in English, few do, Mayor Perez. Just as a comment to, when we talk about history in Wisconsin and in the city of Sheboygan, we just celebrated our sesquicentennial. Parts of Esslingen date to the 7th century. And for me, I think this was particularly revealing because my great-grandfather came from a village some 80 miles away from Esslingen. And as I look at how we keep our traditions and keep our culture, how difficult it is even for myself to reach back in what little smattering of German I know and how even though we are basically a Germanic culture from that part of Europe, many who came over in the 1850s, how yet today, what little we see of our cultural heritage in thought and action. And I guess I only say that because we are a diverse community and I think we really need to recognize and celebrate that diversity and if anybody out there would like to practice German and knows it well, please see me because I need to keep fresh on that. Thank you. Thank you, President Burke. Alderman Graf, Alderman Meyer, anything? Let's see. Excuse me. Hold on. I believe this should do it. Try it. Thank you, Your Honor. Okay. But it was very interesting, all the architecture, and as you said, or Alderman Burke, just different saying about some of them will take back to the 7th century, but a lot of their buildings do it too. It was funny because it wasn't funny, but it was good that Esslingen was not hit by the wars. All their buildings were basically left standing. And they build on those. They don't tear them down. They keep them and they utilize them. We went down to several levels to have dinner several nights while our stay was there. I think one thing that we could have done or should have done possibly was stay there a little longer, the four days. This wasn't enough time to see everything that we could have seen. We were there four days and they were full of everything that we had to do. One day we spent at the police station and just the different things that they had and it was great because the people there, a lot of them didn't speak English so it was easy to understand. They shared with us how they do things. And that's one of the reasons we have this sister city program. So we can share with other cities that we have a sister city relationship. In Esslingen they call it twinning. The twinning cities that they have and I believe they have like six in addition to Shavuigan. Esslingen is a little bit bigger than Shavuigan. I think they're about 91,000. But still there are many things that we have in common and we need to share. And that's why it was so great to be with them. And after 13 years of not visiting them I think you could see how happy they were. And especially when we were leaving on our last day about how we all talked about getting together next year when the 40th anniversary of our sister city relationship does come up. And I believe there's a lot of people that are going to look forward to coming to Shavuigan to help celebrate the 40 years of sister city with everything. Thank you. The excitement was so great that at the same time we were there Esslingen has a sister city relationship with some city in France. And the excitement was so great between the Oberberger Meister and the staff at us that France said can we have one with you too? So they wanted a sister city with us. I don't know that we could afford one but the inquiry was made and that's because there was a lot of a lot of camaraderie, a lot of friendship and it was rekindled and reignited and I thought that that was really great. How about Meijer? Thank you Your Honor. I just want to add that it was one of the most exciting experiences I've ever had and the hospitality was just fantastic. We were strangers in a homeland is what it felt like. The people embraced us. One of the most surprising things to me was that the first night when we went to the Old Town Hall and there was our name Sheboygan honored on their square and I thought that was just fantastic and as we went around through Esslingen any time we mentioned Sheboygan there was somebody that would come up to us and say our sister city I've been there I know people from there and it was just amazing it was beautiful and that surprised me also was the vineyards because you think Germany beer the vineyards were everywhere the wine was wonderful the champagne was wonderful and the beer was excellent. Okay, I should have asked you. Interestingly though they don't serve a lot of tab water so everything we drank had bubbles. Everything we drank had bubble beer champagne wine and water everything had bubbles so that's the way it was but as a final closing note we sit here in a 100 year old building and our country itself is about 230 something years old we were in buildings that were a thousand years old 850 years old our first dinner was in a cellar that was 850 years old structurally sound beautiful just an amazing piece of architectural work and that really inspired me to take a closer look at the things that we have here that we could easily lose and almost deny future generations of that beauty and importance and integrity so keep that in mind the other thing I wanted to mention just a few thoughts I know we have a full agenda and we're going to get into some issues in a minute a couple of minutes but I wanted to address something that has been troubling me and I didn't want to address it because there is a huge change in exchange of unpleasantries but I keep getting calls from people who watch us on TV people who understand and observe our interactions and that of the community with us and that is that they felt that I needed to say something about the manner in which some people are saying this council is perceived and that manner people are saying that this council is perceived is that we are dysfunctional we can't make decisions that we are always fighting that we have political cliques and political groups etc etc etc I'm not blind to all that criticism and negativism that seems to be part of the environment that is being nurtured a lot of it are personal gain political interest so I'm not blind of what's going on in the community what I am asking our community and they're watching us now and I'm asking the alderman is it have faith in what you're doing believe in what you're doing if you don't make a decision that somebody agrees with it's okay it's okay it's just the way it's going to be you were elected as one of the few or the one of the only people that ran for office in your district there's a lot of people counting on you to do the right thing and that right thing may not be the same thing that I consider to be the right thing or that another alderman considers to do the right thing but there's people out there that depend on you there's people out there that depend on you as an individual because you represent their district and there's people out there that depend on you collectively because every time you vote you impact the whole community not just your district so it's important to be cognizant of the fact that even though that negativism out there and it keeps swirling its way into everything and those personal attacks and those and that ugliness that's out there that is only directed at you because you are doing a good job and you're not doing what some people may want you to do and that can stir up some commotion that's just the way the world wags but please stay strong and I always use the analogy of the family I've used it before if you look at a family when mom and dad can no longer get along with each other or start disrespecting each other the family starts to crumble when mom and son or daughter cannot get along the family starts to crumble when dad, son or daughter cannot get along the family starts to crumble and even though they go through bad times and if they're going through bad times and that's what's causing this to crumble but you know and I know that there's families out there that have gone through terrible times I know my family has but if that family stays together as a unit just stays together as a unit and respects each other bad times are going to come and go pretty soon everything's going to be okay again but you need to have faith and the ability and the heart that you have and I know each one of you have it but there's going to be people that tell you you don't and I've never seen I have never ever seen such ugliness and disrespect for city leaders and leaders of our nation and our state it's unprecedented what's going on I was in Milwaukee and I happened to over here a man not criticizing but saying some ugly statements about some people that were there there was a lady standing next to him and she just nipped it at the bud she said you know I don't appreciate what you're saying I wish you wouldn't say it and the man said free country I can say what I want she said it is a free country but say it somewhere else not in my presence and that's almost what we have to do when people come to you to to create this respect for another alderman or the mayor or the city attorney or city clerk any elected official I'm not interested thank you if we start taking care of ourselves the way a family takes care of each other we're going to get strong strong strong and everything that comes before us will come and go and people are going to start seeing what leaders you have the ability to be now you may say Mayor Perez yeah right but well it's not an easy thing there's a lot of personality involves a lot of dynamic interaction outside factors coming in but if you stay strong keep the family unit as an analogy in mind we have to work together people elected us to work together expect us to work together folks the duty that we have the interest that we represent much much bigger than ours those people out there the kids all the people who depend on us do a good job so you almost have to turn off and just say I'm not interested in free speech go tell it to somebody else that's what I started doing myself if people are going to be ugly and rude and nasty to me I'm going to turn the radio off I mean that literally but turn it off because you will not imagine you will not imagine the calls I get at home the emails I get the messages I get the ugliness in it and it has nothing to do whatsoever with the job we're doing all it has to do with people want you to do what they want you to do when they want you to do it no questions asked it's okay to consider that advice it's okay to consider those concerns but you make the ultimate decision and finally you make the ultimate decision collectively I am going to say it I'm proud of each and every one of you everyone has shown a lot of heart a lot of passion and you've shown you have the ingredients to lead this city forward into a brighter future I can't do it alone I need 16 people to stand right next to me we can compound our influence and impact on this community 16 fold if we stick together as a unit I know we can do it I know we can do it I have faith and I believe in that is there anyone notice of a public hearing for the vacation and discontinuance of a portion of south water street between the east right away line of south 9th street and the west line of south 8th street of the original plat is there anyone here that would like to address the council is there anyone that would like to address the council is there anyone President Burke motion second to close hearing under discussion all those in favor say aye any opposed motion carries consent agenda President Burke yes thank you I move to accept and follow our rules accept and adopt all our C's and put all resolutions upon their passage motion and second under discussion they're being on please call the roll Burke Kielsen Clowness Manny Meyer Montemayor Radke Ryan Vanderweel Verhaselt and Bluren 15 ayes motion carries communications and petitions 624 through 629 to be referred report of officers 2 630 lies over 631 through 647 to be referred resolutions introduced 3 648 by Alderman Graf amending the composition of the mayor's international committee to increase the membership from 13 to 15 Alderman Graf motion and second under discussion please call the roll Serta Davis Graf Hannah Kielsen Clowness Manny Meyer Montemayor Radke Vanderweel Verhaselt and Burke 15 ayes motion carries 649 by Alderman Graf consent to the collateral assignment of Shabuigan senior community's interest in the development agreement with the city of Shabuigan Alderman Graf is there any objection to suspension there isn't please proceed motion and second put 649 upon his passage under discussion there being none please call the roll Davis Graf Hannah Kielsen Clowness Manny Meyer Montemayor Radke Ryan Vanderweel Verhaselt Boren Berg and Serta 15 ayes motion carries 650 by Alderman Vanderweel amending resolution number 270607 authorizing the appropriate city officials to enter into an agreement with the Shabuigan area school district relative to providing the public school system with school liaison officers from the Shabuigan police department so as to make the city's obligation contingent upon annual appropriation of funding sufficient to meet this obligation Alderman Vanderweel which one are you trying to I got you I think what happened here okay I think you're on are you on oh boy what we got here move my things here try it now now I got it thank you your honor second okay is there any objection to suspend the rules let's take a vote all those in favor say aye aye any opposed motion carries please proceed thank you and I'll make a motion to put the resolution upon its passage second motion in second to put 650 upon its passage under discussion under discussion your honor this is the result of the questions that were asked last meeting about the about the resolution and if there's any questions attorney McLean will be able to answer them thank you Alderman Ratke thank you your honor I just want to say I'm very happy to see the five-year agreement in place here last year it asked to do a three-year agreement in committee that never came about but now we have a five-year agreement and much happier instead of messing around fooling around with this we've got to see if the schools are sure for the next five years thank you very good Alderman Ratke anything else okay please call the roll Graf Hanna Kittleson Clanus Manny Meyer Montemayor Ratke Ryan Vanderweel Brasselt Bourne Berg Hanna Mr. Mayor I move for suspension of the rules we don't need to spend then I would move that the resolution would be put upon the passage there's a motion in the second to put that resolution upon his passage under discussion I may just just say that the reason that the municipal court advisory committee has been increased to five members is because as you recall there was a three-member committee and finance director Richard Gibbard was a member of that so we were unable to talk as mayor and finance director because that constituted a quorum in violation of open meetings law or that we had to post the meeting every time we talked so we haven't been talking to each other so to speak for a while and I'll be glad to have this thing go so we can start talking to each other again and we did consult with city attorney Steve McLean and that's what it was best to do in this case so we're going to be appointing one anything else okay please call the roll Hanna Kittleson excuse me Clayunas Manny Meyer Montemayor Radke Ryan Vanderwheel Verhasselt Boren Berg Serda Davis and Graf 15 ayes motion carries 652 by Oldman Graf Meyer Montemayor and Kittleson requesting that the common council reconsider the North 23rd Street site for the new police station Alderman Graf thank you your honor I would ask for a suspension of the rules is your objection okay there was a motion in the second let's call the roll and the suspension any discussion on suspended Alderman Graf made a motion Alderman Meyer second we have to call the roll this is an aye vote would be to suspend Kittleson Clayunas Manny Meyer Montemayor Radke Ryan Vanderwheel Verhasselt Boren Berg Serda Davis Graf 7 ayes 8 noes motion fails 653-656 lies over 657-661 to be referred the report of committee 662 by public works informing the department of natural resources at the compliance maintenance annual report has been reviewed and recommended passing the attached resolution is required by the department of natural resources Alderman Meyer thank you your honor I would like to ask for suspension of the rules we don't need to do that okay sorry I would make a motion that the RC be accepted and adopted and the resolution be put upon its passage there's a motion in the second under discussion can we open the floor have Dale Doerr please speak on this issue Mr. Doerr is a department head he can address us Mr. Doerr would you please step up sir thank you mayor CMAR is a method by which the DNR Wisconsin Department of Natural Resources monitors wastewater treatment plants and how well they do do their job and this year again is a grading system they made it so it's more like school we got a 4.0 grade A the best you can get for the second consecutive actually probably the third consecutive year it's they use it as a benchmarking tool so when other communities don't do quite as well as we do they look at how we do our work has to do with cleaning sanitary sewers and operating the treatment plant and then they I guess force them to do that type of work the same way the good plants do but we just have another good report with the good employees that work for the city thank you any questions for Mr. Doerr okay thank you very much okay so we have a motion to accept and adopt 662 put the resolution upon its passage all those in favor say aye any opposed motion carries 660 report of committee 6 663 by law and licensing recommended denying beverage operators license number 3435 based on the failure to cooperate with the committee and failure to reveal all violations Alderman Ratke thank you Dr. make a motion we accept committee motion second under discussion under discussion is sherry blackshear here this evening sherry blackshear she's not here this evening thank you Alderman Ratke any other discussion please call the roll cliunas mani meyer ratke van der wheel boran berg davis gough kittleson motion carries 664 by law and licensing stated that the quasi-judicial hearing to determine whether class B and class B alcohol beverage license and cigarette license number 2231 held by garner LLC should be suspended or revoked was held and the law and licensing committee recommends various penalties Alderman Ratke thank you your honor I move that the report of committee be put upon its passage motion in second to accept under discussion there is a party here ask that maninder car is maninder car here this evening she's not your honor thank you Alderman Ratke any discussion there being on please call the roll mani meyer montemayor ratke van der wheel boran berg davis gough kittleson 15 ayes motion carries 665 by law and licensing stated that the law and licensing committee recommends a suspension for a period of 10 days to begin within 30 days Alderman Ratke thank you your honor I ask that the report of committee be accepted motion in second under discussion is maninder car here this evening she's not here this evening your honor thank you Alderman Ratke anything else there being on please call the roll meyer montemayor ratke van der wheel boran berg davis gough kittleson mani 15 ayes motion carries 666 by law and licensing application number 2 2 3 1 be granted pursuant to various conditions Alderman Ratke thank you your honor I accept the report make a motion that the report be accepted and adopted motion in second to accept and adopt 666 under discussion just for discussion purposes your honor this is basically the both the law and licensing took in the terms of the punishment for the offenses that occurred at this establishment with the application thank you Alderman Ratke okay anything else we will call the roll madam senator clerk montemayor ratke van der wheel boran berg davis gough kittleson mani and mayer 15 ayes motion carries 667 by law and licensing stating that it quasi-judicial hearing to determine whether the contractor's license and roofing registration number 621 held by mark s. winkel was held and that the law and license and committee recommends that the roofing registration be suspended for a period of nine months with other provisions Alderman Ratke may ask that the make a motion that the reporter committee be accepted and adopted second under discussion it's mark winkel here this evening mark winkel is not here this evening your honor but there are two people here that were involved with this and this suspension and revocation actually was retroactive to october 27 of last year the day after the board of contractors examiners met and we asked mr. winkel at that time for a voluntary suspension and it carried on for many months after that and the board of contractors voted 5 to nothing at that time to ask him for, you know, I think it was a nine month if I recall I can't think right at the top of my head for a nine month suspension or voluntary surrender he did not go for that and we came finally to a hearing last week which just basically came down to a hearing for the punishment for what happened there and we never heard the facts in the committee but really there are two people here this evening one is the vice chairman of the board of contractors who has a better feel for what had happened as he is a contractor and I've been the chairman of that committee I'm not a contractor but he can better tell you what really happened and miss susanne house who was actually one of the persons who was a property owner that was affected by this so I'd make a motion that we open the floor to both miss house and mr. hop motion in a second before you vote is the council okay with that last time I always like to let the alderman debate it but then somebody I think alderman david made a motion to call the question so is it okay if we let the people speak before the council debates it in full you want the council to debate it in full first you want the council to debate it in first we ask the council to debate it all directly would you say okay with you you withdraw open the floor later thank you let's debate it let's see who's next blinkin and those people will address the council in a minute thank you alderman barn your first thank you your honor mark winkel is the friend of mine and I abstained in the committee on this and I'm also going to abstain on the vote tonight thank you thank you alderman barn alderman mayer your next thank you your honor I was on the law and licensing committee last year when this issue was first brought in to us and we rejected this penalty because we felt it was not fair to the people that were victimized here and what has happened the other night is basically a slap on the wrist we give a lot of people a lot harsher punishments for doing less than what happened in this situation and I can't go along with this sentence it's just not it's not fair it's not fair to the people it's not fair to the honest contractors in this city and I just can't in all good conscience accept this thank you alderman mayer alderman Ryan thank you your honor mark winkel has been a contractor in sheboygan for over 20 years these two violations in question occurred in 2001 and 2002 he's done literally hundreds of roofs without any complaints any formal complaints for 20 years he had two of them within a period of I believe six months that these roofs were done I did have the privilege of hearing this quasi judicial hearing Mr. Winkle since 2001 2002 was continuing to be a contractor pulling licenses doing roofs in the city of sheboygan until October of last year October 27th I believe it was of 2005 also during that time he had no complaints it was the recommendation of the Chuck Adams city attorney to go with this nine month license suspension both myself and alderman Berg recommended that if Mr. Winkle were to violate anything in the future that this these incidents would be considered in that penalty we felt it was fair you know Mr. Winkle definitely he he tried to make amends to make it right one of the roofs which was a church he basically was in over his head on it he admitted it didn't have the expertise to do it didn't have the personnel to do it paid the price for it the other he did respond to the homeowner on several occasions trying to make it right trying to make it sound and was not able to I think Mr. Winkle is not he's not a fly by night operator by any means he's spent a business for over 20 years in this town until these incidents I believe he he does have a decent reputation as a contractor and I feel that the penalty that he has received is fair thank you thank you Alderman Ryan Alderman Ratke thank you your honor October 27th was the day he stopped said he stopped doing roofing contracts in the city of Sheboygan it was a day after the Board of Contractors had met and we had asked him at that point in time he voluntarily did that and just to accept the record straight Chuck Adams was the prosecutor for this case and I did recuse myself in the committee because I was under the assumption we were going to a full quasi-ditional hearing at the time and I was part of the original case that sent this forward but at the time Chuck Adams is acting as not as our city attorney we had outside legal advice in that particular instance but Mr. Winkle voluntarily stopped doing jobs at that point in time and there had been back and forth trying to get this thing settled out but nothing until last week and now we have a piece of paper that says well October 27th the last year is good enough and I can't accept that thank you Alderman Ratke Alderman President Burke yes thank you your honor in terms of the process that went on really involved the committee listening to testimony that was presented by both sides the particular testimony that I found was striking was from Mr. Mulder of the church I believe the church had likely suffered the most significant injury regarding dollars and cents Mr. Mulder said that he didn't have any specific concerns about having Mr. Winkle return to work as a roofing contractor his request would be that there would be a level of oversight by the building inspection department and my guess is knowing the building inspectors that they will certainly if the council chooses to uphold this recommendations I think they will certainly provide and be very proactive in assuring that Mr. Winkle continues to serve the community in a manner that doesn't bring about such complaint another factor I believe is that the maximum revocation for any individual would be a period of one year as Alderman Ryan said this was the first offense in a period of some 20 years the feeling was that if we could consider this as a precedent to be considered in any subsequent offense that that would if you would be a suitable remedy for the matter thank you President Berg we have Alderman Meyer second time thank you your honor I guess I'm not understanding this I think when you're supposed to be punished for something that you did wrong that means punishment and one of the things that Mr. Winkle did was not take out a permit for a roof he did in the city now in the last seven months he has not taken out any permits in the city but he did admit that he is still working around the county I don't think this is a punishment he has continued to work and we're not going to do anything about you know what he did wrong to begin with thank you Alderman Meyer next we have Alderman Bannerwheel thank you your honor I just have a question I think Alderman Rack you can answer it if we deny this recommendation tonight what will happen will we have another caused judicial hearing or will we'll go back to the committee what will happen if we deny this recommendation I would ask to turn him a clean first turn him a clean I guess I would hesitate to go into this too much I again represent the city attorney's office which prosecuted the case we did have outside counsel we checked whether Mr. Volkner was available tonight and he's on vacations he's out of town so he was not to advise the council but I guess to answer your question if you did not accept this recommendation I think we'd be back to square one as far as going back to law and licensing and having another hearing to come up with some other recommendation unless the council were to adopt some other recommendation on their own if this was not abided by thank you attorney McLean we have next we have Alderman Verhassell being a member of the law and licensing committee I continue to share my concern for Miss House and the church as well as Alderman Ryan pointed out he has approximately 20 years experience in the city and the area which makes it even more perplexing why so many seemingly simple violations were made on this project he has I've been told one crew to oversee which again tells me he had ample opportunity to pick up on these problems I don't feel after listening to the information that he made a good faith effort to remedy the problem to Miss House I really don't so therefore I can't support the recommendation thank you Alderman Verhassell Alderman Ryan second time sir thank you your honor this has been going on since 2001 2002 I believe this is the third time that it's come before the council correct Alderman recce or before the before law and licensing yes the third time to drag this out any further to start again from scratch if the maximum penalty is 12 months we're talking about a three month penalty here would be my recommendation that this matter be put to bed thank you yes thank you one final note it's my understanding that there is an appellate process that should the plaintiff should Mr. Winkle not agree with the decision of this council the remedy available to him is to immediately take it to circuit court is that correct so we are not the final arbiter in this case the due process Mr. Winkle to also take it to circuit court thank you President Burke anything else okay Alderman recce second time I'd like to open the floor to Andy Hopp and Susan House if I could please your honor and then I would make a motion after like to come back make a motion after that but that's allowable to hear from Mr. Hopp was the vice chairman of the board of contractors examiners and who was there and saw the evidence in front of us okay there's a motion to open the floor to two people is there a time limitation Alderman recce was that is there a time limitation five minutes each five minutes each motion and there was a second second any discussion on that Alderman Manning thank you it's important to hear from especially both people I guess because there's differential between the contractors board and what they would like to do by way of punishment versus what Chuck Adams had recommended so I think that's the key to the struggle in this issue thank you Alderman Manning attorney McLean not quite Alderman Manning attorney Adams is here also and perhaps if you're opening the floor perhaps you'd allow him to speak also as far as opening the floor just would you like to include that in your motion Alderman recce and the second okay we got three open the floor motion and second to open the floor to three people five minute limitation any discussion on that those in favor say aye any opposed one opposition who would like to go first please do sir thank you your honor and thank you members of the common council for allowing me to speak I come before you this evening to respectfully request that you revoke the roofing registration of Mr. Winkle for a period of nine months starting from this state forward rather than retroactive back to October 27th as recommended by the law and licensing committee it's not easy for me to get up here and speak out against a local businessman especially one who's a member of that loose fraternity that is the construction trades I don't know Mr. Winkle personally I've only talked to him on one occasion and that's when he was before the board of contractors he's not a competitor in business to me so I really have no personal agenda here I do however feel compelled by the fact that I'm a member of the board of contractor examiners I take that very seriously and I feel it's my duty to protect the citizens of Sheboygan from contractors that aren't following the building code I would like to support my request for this stronger penalty by using three criteria first, the severity of the offenses I hope you have the stipulations in front of you RC-6-07 from law and licensing if you don't you can follow along I'll quickly summarize them paraphrase them and explain what they mean and these are the facts that law and licensing accepted first, no building permit whether this was intentional or merely an oversight I'll leave for you to judge second, Mr. Winkle installed a roof that was not structurally sound was not free from defects that would admit rainwater and was not waterproof Ms. House started with a roof that was simply leaking around the chimney when she contacted Mr. Winkle to come out and look at it she quickly lost faith in his ability to fix the problem and then when she called the building inspector as she pursued the matter to Small Claims Court she became aware that she had a roof that not only leaked but had numerous code violations it was plain and obvious to me because I happened to be in the area when Mrs. House's roof was redone so they tore off Mr. Winkle's shingles and it was plain and obvious to me that there were several areas where there was improper substrate what that means in common language is there were spots where the existing cedar shingles were missing or were rotted and gone completely several areas along the side of the building had no flashing and one of my things that I really took notice of was when the crew doing the project stated to me there's one spot where a critter could get into the attic that's how big a hole there was no underlayment or felt paper the third finding effect this black tire paper that we often refer to in the building trades at the law and licensing committee there was some discussion that this was a minor offense not using tire paper because of the small cost of this material I would beg to differ omitting the tire paper 400 square feet for under $15 a roll seems to me like something you would automatically do if it meant that the roof was going to be code compliant no attic ventilation there was some discussion at law and licensing that because Ms. House Ruff's didn't have attic ventilation before this roof was put on Mr. Winkle didn't need to put any on the fact of the matter is our building inspectors do not grandfather old buildings when you put on a new roof you are required to put in ventilation and a fact that did not come up at law and licensing was the fact that all manufacturers now will avoid their warranty if you do not put in attic ventilation five properly driven fasteners in many ways this was a result of the improper substrate because either in their haste they nailed or stapled in the wrong spot on the shingles or the staples went partially through or all the way through the shingles because there was nothing underneath we then switch to the Calvin Christian reform church project number six it was not waterproof the roof leaked but you don't know to the degree that it leaked what Mr. Mulder told me is what they would do every time it rained is they would make a list and they would post it in a closet for the custodian so when Mr. Winkle came he could hand them the new list every time and every time it rained they would make another list on one occasion it was dripping on the organ luckily there were parishioners there and they were able to move the organ excuse me Mr. Hop your five minutes are up I'm sorry thank you Mr. Hop thank you for allowing me ma'am please thank you you're welcome thank you for taking this time to listen to me I know that you have a lot of really important things to talk about but I appreciate that an individual can come and talk to you I am Suzanne House I live on Barrett Street and I bought my first house a few years ago my inspector told me that the roof was bad I should get it redone I asked that that be part of the purchase and so the roof was redone in August 2002 it first leaked in August 2003 then in October 2003 and then June 2004 I know that Mr. Winkle's attorney has said many times that Mr. Winkle responded immediately and tried very hard to make amends there are many good faith efforts and that's what I would like to talk about the code violations are well documented there are pictures and everything but Mr. Winkle's attorney implied that I asked him to come once when he didn't fix it immediately I immediately took him to court in fact I asked Mr. Winkle to help me I asked the company that held his bond to help me my insurance company was trying to help me and then I went to small claims court because Mr. Winkle would not help I kept working because I thought there was this basic idea that if someone does a bad job then they'll reimburse you to get it done properly and apparently that was naive and now I'm much wiser in the ways of the world I had to pay $8,000 to have my roof redone because it was in such bad shape and I knew that if I ever go to sell my house there's no way I could say it's a good roof because it clearly had lots of problems I also had to spend a few thousand more to fix the inside damage at this point my interest in the penalty that is given to Mr. Winkle has to do with just consequences for the actions of professional takes and my attempt I don't want other people to have to deal with this I would much rather be at home not here talking about my roof I've learned far too much about roofs but there was a lot of correspondence I'm an English teacher so what I can do I don't roof but I write letters so I have a lot of correspondence and I'd like to read some of Mr. Winkle's correspondence that happened about this well first when he came he stood with me and he said it was the chimney his assistant put some putty in the mortar and he told me never to have a roof done as part of a house sale that his company had complied with the seller's request for quick work he asked Faith and decided I would rather have somebody else up on my roof so I eventually asked my insurance company to help me he wrote to my representative of the American Family Insurance an inspection by the city building inspector has absolved us of any wrongdoing that was July 6th 2004 in fact there was no building inspection until October 18th 2004 and then he was cited because the roof was not watertight he after I tried to get money from the bond and the nation's specialty insurance says I have spoken with Mr. Winkle who has indicated the roof was installed properly and satisfied all pertinent codes and ordinances it had not at that point Mr. Winkle wrote to Bradley Temple from the insurance company it's unfortunate that Ms. House had a leak problem but the fact that the problem surfaced a full year after our work was completed would indicate that the problem is not a result of workmanship Ms. House's allegations about workmanship are based on speculation and supposition and she offers no evidence to support our allegation her allegation is further contraindicated in that the municipal inspector has not cited my firm for code violations or workmanship deficiencies it's true that was August and they weren't cited he wasn't cited until October when he wrote to the subrogation examiner for the insurance company that was helping me your letter is a grievous error complete falsehood you are insured Susan L. House was informed by another roofing contractor that the leak in question emanated from a defect in the chimney flashing which was installed by another contractor after our work was complete this is something that he said in court that there was someone else who had been on the roof I never had anybody else on the roof I went back and got statements from the realty company and from the previous owner who never had anybody else on the roof again Ms. House's allegations are born out of speculation and supposition I asked when I had I don't know what the words are I said I would like to take him to court his response was the residence does not need to be re-roofed I was not cited by the building inspector for a code violation then we went through the mediation and we ended up in court where I learned that he had another roofer get up on my roof without my knowledge or permission and do a roof inspection that I didn't see until we were in court finally on June 27th his lawyer asked that in fact he not have to pay court costs because Mr. Winkle wants the court to know he has spent more than $3,000 in attorney's fee and an additional $365 in expert witness fees defending his case so he shouldn't have to pay anything August 28th he wrote to the judge without copying me and requested that the matter be reconsidered none of this to me speaks of a professional trying to do his best to make up for an error thank you very much assistant attorney assistant city attorney Mr. Adams thank you I speak this evening simply as the prosecutor on the case and my recommendation was in fact that the license be suspended for a period of nine months and that Mr. Winkle be given credit for the period of time that he voluntarily did not act on the license I I'd note that I do I did have some knowledge of what was going on I'm a member of the church where this occurred in fact I've been dripped upon member of the council there and Ms. House is a friend of mine my former next door neighbor on North 9th street but I do think that the penalty that has been imposed is a fair one first of all why nine months nine months primarily because these are serious violations there are not the type of violations that are minor and warrant a short type of violation like we would oftentimes do for minor violations nine months is three fourths of the maximum penalty and I think that these kind of violations are worth nine months the reason why I did not recommend the full one year is because this is somewhat different than previous cases where we have requested the full one year or revocation those were in situations that we call cut and run contractors the most recent one we did was a contractor by the name of Scott Kale who we revoked the license he was a cut and run contractor had done some work disappeared there's perhaps maybe only one or two of you who are on the council at that time a few years ago but an elderly couple that basically was built out of their money when a contractor left without even completing the work this was not that type of cut and run and so I felt that one year would not be the maximum would not be appropriate but nine months would be as far as why giving credit for the period of time that he did not take the license one is because the process simply took a long time and he did voluntarily once the contractors requested that he voluntarily surrender his license he did take the action he didn't surrender the license but he didn't act on the license either typically we do give credit in criminal court and in civil court if someone sits in jail for a period of time before conviction we give them credit for jail time served and this is something similar to that he has paid a penalty in essence if we were to suspend him for nine months from today in essence what we would be doing is imposing a penalty of between 16 and 17 months which would be longer than the maximum provided under the law which I just felt would not be fair in this particular situation and so giving him credit for that time seemed to me to be an appropriate way to deal things and so that's why I made the recommendation that I did and I believe that's why the committee accepted that recommendation thank you thank you assistant city attorney Adams we have Alderman Banderweil thank you I respect assistant attorney Chuck Adams recommendations but I don't agree with them so I would like to make an amendment to the RC if I could and the amendment would read on the fourth page would be the last page it says that the roofing registration held by Marcus Winkle be suspended for a period of nine months then I would add starting June 19 second and then the words with effective immediately with credit being given for the time since October 27, 2005 should be deleted and then go on to read the rest of the RC thank you Alderman Banderweil, motion in second Madam city clerk you get that sure Alderman Ratke thank you Your Honor this is what the board of contractors examiner wanted from the very beginning to go back to October 27 there's enough feedback in here to go back to October 27 would not be correct because we met on October 26 in a special meeting we only meet every other month the fourth Wednesday and we had a normal meeting in November we were not able to take anything up until November at that time we rejected and sent it back there was a little back and forth in that time but the truth of the matter is he could have worked the whole time if he was sitting in jail I would have given credit for that because he couldn't have worked but he could have worked he took it upon himself to go backward while we were negotiating back and forth trying to come up with this so I think nine months from today and it's what was the recommendation of the board of contractors and if you would have seen the pictures and I wish I could have brought them in and I should have I'm not a contractor I rely upon the building inspection department as a chair of that committee to help me understand in certain situations I didn't need any help to understand this situation I saw those pictures those pictures weren't pretty they were not at all I mean it did not look like a newly finished roof it was very bad looking that was the picture of Miss House's home pictures of the church I didn't really remember seeing but when I took a look at those pictures if I had a contractor like that you would have brought my house it came out of Louisiana or something after the hurricane it did not look very good and I'm just a regular working guy here I'm not a contractor or anything but I could see it just as quickly as I looked at those pictures it was not the best of workmanship it was very shoddy workmanship from what I could tell at best so this is what the board wanted to do from the word go I support all the person Van Der Woe's amendment because if he had none I would have so thank you and that's all I have to say thank you thank you Alderman Ratke we have Alderman Ryan next thank you Your Honor as assistant city attorney Chuck Adams stated this would be the equivalent of almost doubling the penalty for Mr. Winkle he has not done a roof in the city since October 27th I believe that that his recommendation is correct to all of a sudden now tack on another nine months on top of the eight months that he has nearly already completed voluntarily not doing roofs I think is excessive at best I don't see Mr. Winkle accepting that penalty I guarantee you I wouldn't to be penalized doubly and I think this is going to continue on and on into the future if it is not accepted as stated in the resolution thank you thank you Alderman Ryan next we have Alderman Serra thank you Your Honor if there's one thing I think we're in agreement on is that is he should have nothing less than the nine months can someone tell me what I'm missing is why is the seven month restrictions that he imposed on himself any different than the seven months that we're looking to in the future he served his time what am I missing because if not then again we would that would be dual we would be double penalizing him why are we looking at that seven month voluntary any differently can someone answer that question Alderman Ratz wait a minute we have Alderman to my other next were you going to respond to that question Alderman Ratz please respond normally when somebody surrenders a license they come in the city hall and turn that license into somebody when they voluntarily surrender a license in this case I don't believe that ever happened in any situation he could have continued to work out there because he did hold his license but he never turned it in he had it the whole time so I don't think that's a voluntary surrender when you hold on to your license and continue to work if you choose to he just chose not to while this was all going on trying to come up is thank you Alderman Ratz Alderman to my other thank you your honor it seems to me that the penalty should be that you won't be earning money for nine months if he was still earning lots of money working in the county how was he complying with not earning money for nine months that's my question thank you Alderman to my other second time just to reiterate I understand Alderman Ratz's opinion on that matter but when you take into consideration the legal advice by the assistant city attorney Chuck Adams who was the prosecutor he even recognizes that in court that seven months voluntary suspension that he gave himself would still probably be upheld Alderman Ryan second time thank you your honor yeah actually he has voluntarily surrendered he has not surrendered his license he's voluntarily not done rust for seven plus months and the penalty suggested here will carry it out to nine months to say that he hasn't earned money in the last seven months if his license was suspended for nine months starting today Mr. Wakele would still be able to go to the county and work and do the county he just wouldn't be able to do roughs in the city is my understanding this is his city rougher's license not the county rougher's license so it's I don't think you can ask somebody if they're not sitting in a jail cell getting four squares a day or three squares a day to starve themselves for nine months and not work at all for him to have worked in the county he voluntarily stayed out of the city he did not pull any permits in the city I believe it is sensible to go with Assistant City Attorney Chuck Adams recommendation in this case I personally do not care to see it again in the law and licensing committee thank you thank you Alderman Ryan Attorney McLean thank you Your Honor I don't wish to address the merits I guess it's really a procedural issue and Alderman Ryan and Alderman Van der Weel I guess you made the motion but technically you've got the committee report from law and licensing I don't think you really want to amend the committee report that's the recommendation of the committee I guess what you would propose to do would be to accept and file the report of the committee and recommend as you said that the suspension for nine months be from today as opposed to be in retroactive and that the other provisions in here that those complaints or those allegations be used for future penalties and so forth still be in there but I just sort of a technical issue that you're not really I don't think it's appropriate for the council to amend the committee report if you know what I understand what I'm saying Alderman Van der Weel thank you Your Honor, thank you Attorney McLean for clearing that up then I will make a motion to accept and file the RC and with recommendation to start the nine months June 19th so what was the motion again Alderman Van der Weel the motion was to accept and file the RC the report of committee and recommend that we start the nine month suspension period today June 19th recommend to the law and licensing committee just recommend was there a second to that there's a motion and a second under discussion please call the roll does everybody understand what you're going to vote on Attorney McLean did you want to say something to clarify that would also include Alderman Van der Weel that similar language that's in the recommendation as far as that should additional formal complaints be brought before the contractors examiner's board that or the law and licensing committee or the council that the allegations of complaint should be taken into account by those recommending penalties and the potential future actions yeah thank you Alderman Ryan what's your time are you excuse me does the council have an objection to that there's a rule two times per it's a new motion it's a new motion that's right I forgot Alderman Ryan thank you once again your honor why do we have assistant city attorney Chuck Adams is our prosecutor that recommended this penalty if we are going to in essence take his recommendation take the recommendation of the participants in the quasi judicial hearing throw it out the window and impose a stiffer penalty that has the potential to be considered almost a double penalty I think we're kind of probably sticking our possibly sticking our feet in some hot water here I don't know the legalities of it myself because I am not an attorney however I do trust in the judgment of assistant city attorney Chuck Adams and I do highly suggest that we go along with his recommendation thank you Alderman Ryan thank you your honor once again let me give you the sequence of events here this came before the board of contractors examiners who voted five to nothing unanimously for a nine month suspension or voluntary surrender Mr. Winkle didn't do that he eventually came here went to law and licensing the quasi judicial hearing which was held was a penalty phase it wasn't a full quasi judicial hearing the facts of the case really didn't come out here in committee like they did back in the board of contractors now my board voted five to nothing and I'm back in my board all the way on this one there is no double penalty here it's not only imposed at this point in time Mr. Winkle voluntarily stopped taking jobs within the city of Sheboygan since October 27th of last year he voluntarily did that he didn't come and say to us here's my license I'm not working in Sheboygan he just decided to try and come around the system that way I don't buy it the fact of the matter is I saw the evidence in committee we sent it up the ladder and it still stands in my mind I can vividly see those pictures of the workmanship there or the lack thereof and I was not a happy man when I saw them I sit with a bunch of contractors and we were all there that night and they all showed me and they all told me because I asked a lot of questions of these people because they're in this business it's not a double penalty the penalty has not been levied at this point in time Mr. Winkle in his own mind has paid his price that's what he decided to do it's not what we've put forward secondly this is the final court this is the final stop if somebody doesn't like a penalty phase we took a liquor or a beer license from a lady tonight for 90 days she could have come up and argued in front of us as well the long licensing committee only makes a recommendation to the common council not that that recommendation has to be taken it's only a recommendation by the committee the common council still has the final say over anything that happens in this city whether it be a license or putting a new manhole cover in the middle of 8th street the common council has the final say and that's where the court is tonight right here after that you'd have to go to circuit court but we are the final court in the city of Shibuya thank you the board is lighting up like a Christmas tree so bear with me Alderman Meyer thank you your honor I just want to say this is the same penalty that was offered the last time last year when I was on law and licensing and we said no last time and it's the same penalty with last time because more months have gone by and nine months retroactive well now we're down to what, a month and a half this is just wrong thank you Alderman Van der Wiel thank you your honor I just wanted to explain myself a little bit I was on law and licensing for three years and I worked with assistant attorney Chuck Adams quite a bit and I respect him but his recommendations are just recommendations it is our job as Alderman who are making this decision to look at the situation and if we feel that the penalty should be stronger or weaker we should suggest it and that's what I did I feel that the penalty should be stronger and you each have a single bullet and I made my suggestion thank you Alderman Van der Wiel Alderman Bressel thank you your honor there's been a lot of talk in the last few minutes about double penalty and so on and if in fact Mr. Winkle did propose a I guess a penalty on himself since October 27th that would be a great gesture by him however I guess I think we should entertain the possibility perhaps he wasn't approached for jobs within the city limits since that period too seeing he did have his license and he was able there's a possibility he wasn't approached that may be the scenario thank you thank you your honor I think a couple of just thoughts on the motion I think the one of the biggest penalties confronted this contractor is a judgment of his peers and also the discussion of his workmanship in the full light of the council and in front of the community I don't think there's any penalty that can match that for any individual who holds himself out for business so if we're talking about nine months now or nine months later I think the public certainly has been very well informed about the nature of the offenses and I think for me the length of penalty to some degree is moot in light of the impact that this likely has upon this individual as he holds himself out of the public as a contractor thank you president burge we have are you calling the question is there a second to that second to that all those in favor say aye any opposed we will call the question madam city clerk please call the roll this is to accept and file the RC with the recommendations that the penalties start on 19th and take out the part in here with credit being given for the time since October 27th 2005 is that correct alderman van der Wiel and I vote would be to do that um ratki hi ryan no van der wheel hi verhasselt hi borin I'm stein burge no serda no davis no graf hi hannah hi I'm sorry hi thank you kittleson no clayunas hi montemay or hi eight eyes seven nose motion carries I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry take that back there was an extension six nose one extension five six seven eight I'm sorry take that back there were eight eyes six nose and one abstention sorry I don't remember okay everybody got that clear very good the uh six sixty eight one extension and safety recommending that the common council keep wildwood avenue open and doesn't go forward with a previous recommendation rc number one sixty one oh five oh six that would require blocking wildwood avenue and block a driveway into the shaboygan athletic club complex on new jersey avenue alderman van der wheel thank you honor I'll make a motion to accept and adopt the rc motion in a second under discussion under discussion this is a complicated issue I can't explain it in a short amount of time but about two and a half years ago denny moyer from the from the local a's baseball complex asked us to work with him regarding the problem of parking around the complex our engineering department worked often on the last two and a half years to come up with the best solution to uh to work with denny moyer we looked at every possibility and decided the best way to go was to close the north side of wildwood avenue this was slow traffic down and wildwood avenue and would allow more parking in that area uh blocking the driveway along new jersey avenue would also allow a little bit more parking just for the record I was always a little concerned about this and how it would affect the public so recently in public protection and safety we heard from the residents in that area with the help of alderman kittleson we were able to notify the residents of the meeting time and ask for their input the public who attended that meeting were all against closing the street the community could not take any action because the last council already approved the closing so tonight I ask the council to listen to the residents of that area on this item and vote not to close the street thank you thank you alderman van de wiel alderman moyer you're next thank you your honor um I was on this committee last year when this issue came in and we voted to close and the reason being we were told that all the neighbors had been notified and no one had a had a problem with it so we thought great you know we'll do something good for the athletic club possibly a safe safety for the people walking around in the road and kids chasing balls were told we thought this was an easy situation and then a couple weeks ago we find out that all the neighbors are in an uproar nobody knows anything about it so I guess there was some kind of lack of communication and I hope that this kind of stuff doesn't happen in the future it would make our job a lot easier if the people are notified like we're told otherwise I guess we'll have to run around and start knocking on doors ourselves but we did trust you know the people the professionals and I don't know I guess somebody dropped the ball somewhere thank you thank you alderman alderman kilson thank you your honor I just wanted to say on behalf of the residents up in that area of the third district I appreciate the recommendation of the public protection and safety committee to look at that resolution or that motion to close that street they really appreciate it they I went up there and talked to the people and and they hadn't heard about it so I don't know where the miscommunication was but and I know the people at the vfw hall were quite upset about it also so they all appeared at the meeting and I believe we did hash it all out but on behalf of all of them I know they appreciate not having the street closed thank you thank you all thank you your honor the citizens in that area did come and speak with us and they made themselves very clear originally it was to help out the children playing in that area the parking the baseball games that were going on and the city had decided that it is a narrow little street with no curbs it is very narrow and it is about half a block further and you're on a regular street to go up that same hill so we thought it was probably a fine idea to close and would make things better just wanted to explain a bit more thank you before we call it real just wanted to point something out this is another good example of how the common council can change its mind you're doing it tonight on another issue when people tell you you're being indecisive you made a decision don't change your mind it's okay to change your mind this is a good example of doing that and there's a good mixture of reasons for that and that is what the legislation is about thank you please call it over Ryan Vanderweel Verhaselt Boren Berg Serta Davis Graf Kittelsen Manny Montemayor and Ratke 14 ayes 1 no motion carries ordinances introduced 10 6 69 6 70 to be referred matters laid over 11 4 38 and RO 506 0 7 by the city plan commission recommended vacating that portion of south water street between the east right away line of south 9th street and the west line of south 8th street of the original plat city of Sheboygan alderman montemayor thank you your honor I move the report of officer be accepted and adopted and the resolution be put upon its passage motion second to accept adopted file and resolution be put upon its passage under discussion please call the roll Vanderweel Verhaselt Boren Berg Serta Davis Graf Kittelsen Clowness Manny Meyer Montemayor Ratke and Ryan 15 ayes motion carries other matters authorized by law 6 71 will go to public works 673 will go to public works 674 will go to committee of the whole 675 lies over other matters city attorney McLean thank you your honor 676 is a communication from Eric Jensen of LJM architects requesting an encroachment of the public property along the river boardwalk in the south pier district to construct a building in conjunction with the islander cafe that goes to the city plan 677 is an ordinance granting LJM architects, successors in the science privilege of encroaching upon described portions of a public promenade located at 528 530 south pier drive in the city for the purpose of building and maintaining a deck 678 is a resolution adding one additional member and one employee remuneration committee that one will lie over 679 is an RO by the city court submitting a communication from John Madenauer asking that the council vote to bring the location of the police department to a referendum hold on a minute Alderman Kittleson on that one thank you your honor can we just change that to Gail the lady instead of John it's Gail in the room the communication has been submitted by Gail Gail John I believe is her husband and that will go to the committee 680 is a communication from Dimple Adams stating her frustrations regarding the possible sites for the police station and the fact that the 23rd street location is back on the table 681 is a communication from Debbie Desmolan stating chemicals that are going airborne into her yard that one go protection and safety motion to adjourn session motion to convene in closed session under the exemption provided section 19. 85 1g for the purpose of conferring with legal counsel for the city who was rendering oral and written advice concerning the application of the application adopted with respect to litigation in which it is or is likely to become involved. So moved. Motion and second? Second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. We will convene in closed session. I'll ask that everyone else leave.