Welcome everyone to Senate Education this Thursday afternoon, February 18th. We have with us, Chair Sandelson and Sarah Buxton. Chair Sandelson, we know is the Chair of the State Board of Education. And is Buxton your special counsel to the State Board of Education? Correct. Great. Thanks. So what I thought we needed some time and committee to do, since it's in the press so much and we continue to have a number of different conversations and even questions from constituents and colleagues is to go over the 2200 rule series. And if you don't mind, I think unless I see some immediate questions, I'll just turn it over to the two of you to take us through what these are. They're talked about a lot, what's in them, and then we'll have some questions. Great. And I think that's a really good way to frame it. Okay, we'll interrupt with questions too. I think that's this committee, Bob Sprash, if people can jump in. Yeah, thank you. It's good to be back again. I'm Jennifer Dex-Amielson. I'm the Chair of the State Board of Education. Nice to see you all, although a little farther away this time. And I am joined today by Attorney Sarah Buxton, who's been retained by the board to assist us with updating rule series 2200 to incorporate the principles and goals of Act 1 of 2019. And before I jump into this, I just want to preface this with the general overview that the board takes our responsibilities very seriously and we are absolutely committed to implementing strict anti-discrimination and inclusion requirements in all of Vermont schools, including our approved independent schools. We've taken enormous steps to achieve this aim through the last and current round of rulemaking, which I'm kind of referring to as Phase 1 and Phase 2, and I'll get into that shortly. The rules we are discussing today have the power of law. They're very strong rules. In fact, there are several parts of the rules, including the non-discrimination provisions that are significantly more robust for approved independent schools than they are for public schools. And we can address that point at another time at the committee's pleasure, if you'd like. With my thanks to Morgan for his assistance, I sent to each of you this morning the following, the slideshow presentation, which I believe everyone has, as well as, and this is where it gets a little bit more lengthy, the current version of Rule Series 2200 that is fully effective as of July 1st of 2023, the proposed updates to Rule Series 2200 as they were filed with ICAR this past fall, and a detailed side-by-side that Sarah prepared to clear what changes are being proposed. You can review the Rule Series on the side-by-side at your leisure, but we thought it would be helpful to have everything at your fingertips so that you understand the work that we've done and the work that we are continuing to do. These rules are comprehensive. They reflect many hours of work by board members and input from stakeholders, and we are proud of them. So with that, I'm going to jump to my first slide. I would just say my only recommendation on all of this would be talk to the committee, like we don't know much about rules or anything. I mean, I really want us all to have this, make the language our own after we have this conversation. So as much as you can do that, that would be great. Sure. Yeah, I have a few slides that are sort of setting the table for our discussion. Yeah, so let me just jump to slide two. I do want to point out after we met last week, and I couldn't remember where our student members were from. I did update that, we're all clear. So our junior member, Gray Farron, is from Panton, and he's a student member. He attends Virginia Union High School. Aaliyah Wilburn is our senior member, and she attends North Country Union High School. The other update, which I have for you, which is unrelated to these rules, is this computer case of mine, which now you can't see anymore is from Etsy. It would appear to be handmade. Don't have any more information on that, but I'm happy to give anyone the link who would like it. Thank you, Sanderson. And are you going to be pulling the slides up on your side as well, or would you like to just say, how would you like to do this? Well, if members have the slides up, then that might be the easiest way. Otherwise, I can share my screen. Oh, that's fine. So I'm on slide three. Oh, there's a concern that people in the watching might not see the illicit rate point.   Okay. This is going to be embarrassing. How? Okay. Beautiful. Beautiful. Great. Thank you. So let me just go back to my version of it. Okay. So on slide three, I just listed out who from the State Board of Education is on this rule series 2200 update committee. The committee has not changed from, you know, phase one, our last iteration of updates to this current iteration of updates. So I am chairing it and I'm joined by Kim Gleason and Tom Lovett. The next slide, slide four, this series, this slide is really kind of setting the table and I've got a few of these. But this really just kind of starts with what authority does the board have and what are the effect of our rules. So pursuant to 16 VSA 16414, the board is required. This is mandatory. It's a shall in statute. We are required to adopt rules for the approval of independent schools. The rules are then adopted pursuant to Vermont's administrative procedure act and they have been codified as rule series 2200. As duly adopted administrative rules, these rules have the power of law. Compliance with them is not discretionary. And I think that's really important for the committee to understand. Next, this is another little place setting series of slides. This is slides five, six and seven. These are the roles. And it's funny to me, Vermont is a small state, but yet we have both a agency of education and a board of education. And I've received a number of inquiries where people are really confused about, you know, who does what? What is the purpose? You know, what is the role of the board? So I wanted to take a minute and just really clarify that. I don't know if, you know, the committee also has similar confusion, but I just thought it would be helpful to lay it out here. So the board, you know, you'll notice, you know, based on the size of the font of this slide, we really have three basic roles. We are, we adopted rules for approval. We make findings before we approve schools that meet the requirements of Title 16 and our rules upon recommendation of the secretary. And we conduct quasi-judicial due process hearings to revoke or suspend independent school approvals. Again, upon recommendation of the secretary. The next two slides, slide six and seven, I'm not going to read these. I'm just going to, you know, there's slide six or Sarah and slide seven. You'll notice the font's much smaller. There are a lot more bullets. There are a lot more responsibilities that the agency is charged with. These roles are more varied and they're more extensive. The system that we have in Vermont is designed for each entity to perform specific functions that align with their structure. And this makes sense when you consider our resources. The State Board is an independent board that's made up of essentially volunteers who bring various backgrounds and expertise in the educational field to our positions, but we all have other jobs. We have an extremely modest budget and we have no staff. The agency by contrast is comprised of professionals whose duty it is to enforce and monitor compliance along with its many other duties. And as you can see in slide six and seven, this work is enormous. The agency sitting on its hands, it's not ignoring matters related to independent schools. Their work in this area is extremely time-intensive and thorough. There are site visits, there's technical assistance, there's scrupulous review, and this all takes time. But, you know, much as we want to reassure, you know, the committee and members of the public that a school that is approved has been through an extensive process, any, you know, assistance for an independent school, any, you know, investigation of complaints with regard to an independent school is also similarly thorough, so that the public can have confidence in our process. Also, just take a moment here to foreshadow that in the newly proposed rules, we recognize that, you know, there are a lot of tasks that are being assigned to the agency and we are proposing to have an annual assurance for independent schools to complete that will just ease future backlogs by adopting some minor coordination checkpoints. So moving on slide eight, this is now going to what I'm referring to as our phase one updates. So these were updates that were largely enacted in response to Act 173 of 2018. So there were, you know, two sets of updates to phase one. The first set of rules became effective upon adoption, so that was May 10th, 2022. And then the second set, which really, you know, pertained to the Act 173 related changes, those only became effective July 1st of 2023. And that change involved rewriting Rule 2229 and adopting approval criteria for approved independent schools to receive public funds. So that was a pretty significant rewrite that we did there. We have a question from Senator Hewlett. Sure. It's more of a comment, and I do this sometimes with Alton Welker. Could we just slow down a little bit, because there's a lot of information coming at us at once? Sure. So I can pause too and see if there are any questions or, you know, just check your understanding. That'd be great. Whatever speech committee is comfortable with. Does anyone have questions at this point? I actually have a question. What is the process as applications come into you? Are they vetted prior to arrival to the board by the AOE, or do they just come directly to the board? That's a really good question, and there is a very extensive process, which is laid out in, well, the rule, numeration has changed, but it starts with, if a school is up for reapproval, they have to submit a timely application packet, and that is in, I believe it's current Rule 2226. So it's very extensive what they need to submit. Once they have done that, the agency will conduct a site review, and the agency team that conducts the site review prepares a report. That report is vetted by agency counsel, and it is reviewed and signed by the secretary at that point with the secretary's recommendation. At that point, that recommendation comes before the State Board of Ed 2200 School Approval Committee, which is Tom Lovett, Jenna O'Farrell, and Lyle Jepsen. So they meet with the agency, they meet with the school, they have a question and answer, if there are any questions, and I should say, too, that this independent school is given an opportunity to respond to the secretary's recommendation. So they have a meeting, and then based on that meeting, the 2200 Approval Committee then presents its recommendation to the full board. And then that happens at our monthly meetings where, you know, Tom Lovett will present us with the entire packet, including the secretary's recommendation and the report from the agency team. We have a discussion. The school is there if we have, if board members have any questions, and then we vote on it. Okay, I just interrupt. You also are required to make findings, Jennifer. So I just wanted to highlight that because that's those findings carry over into the next iteration. Thanks. So I guess that's just to say that I've pulled it up on the screen here. I'm not sure if you can see it, but the current rules, it starts in section 2226, and you can see there's a variety of things that are required in the application. But then in the approval process, you know, the agency does all its work, as Jennifer said, the subcommittee does its work. But then in addition, the board has to make a number of findings that, you know, are pretty robust. And then they can make their their decision about whether our school is approved or not. And they can grant, they can put conditions on the schools. I'm not sure if that's been done in recent times, but they can. It has, yeah. Yeah. Okay. And when you say things like pretty robust, can you point us in that direction? So we know what you're. Yeah. Actually, I'm going to, I'm going to point you in two places. One is where they are now, which is up on my screen. And then I'm going to pull up the new set of rules because they've been reorganized a little bit for usability, but for another reason I'll get to in a second. So the robustness of the review starts here. Can you see my screen? Okay. Do you want to make it a little larger, Sarah? So this what I'm what I'm looking at right now is section. Let's see if I can make it any larger. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So I'm looking at the, these are the current rules, Senator. So the current application requires, you know, some basic information. And as you can see, those include this, the school's statement of philosophy and purpose, description of their enrollment practices. That I'll highlight is different for publicly, for the application to receive public tuition under the, under the current rules and has been sort of reorganized under the proposed rules. The plan of organization, governance, faculty, student body, names and addresses of the governing board, description of curricula, methods of instruction, evaluation procedures, special services, et cetera. And then the really, I think one of the important parts that was added in the last update, which was phase one of 2200 is this part right here that I've got highlighted. And it says that the school needs to comply and provide, sorry, demonstration that the school substantially complies with all statutory requirements for approved independent schools and provides documentation of the following, a statement of non-discrimination posted on the school's website. And those are checked in the school's app and included in the school's application materials that is consistent with the Vermont Public Accommodations Act and the Vermont Fair Employment Act. I'm sorry, Vermont Fair Employment Practices Act, the assurance signed by the head of school that the school complies with the Vermont Public Accommodations Act in all aspects of the school's admissions and operations and a description of the facilities and assurances that the facilities meet all applicable state and federal requirements. I'll skim through some of the rest because they're probably what you would typically think of that you'd be looking at with the school information about their staffing, their staff qualifications, the job descriptions, the resumes, the assignments of all the staff members, how the institution approaches professional growth of staff and supports professional development and what they've done over the last two years. So it's both like what is your policy but then show us evidence of what has happened. More information about the professional environment. Financial capacity here is actually largely lifted from statute. The legislature adopted this many years ago and certainly has always had an interest in making sure that approved schools are certainly not going to go under anytime soon. And then the second part of this, as I had said, it was robust is that the agency is collecting all this information. They're doing their site visit, they're creating the report that Jennifer had mentioned. But then before the board, which sits in this sort of check and balance in the process, when the board acts, it goes over all of that homework that it's been presented with, considers the recommendation of the secretary and then needs to make the following these findings prior to approval. Examples include the course of study as adequate. The school has the available support services to meet the requirements of the minimum course of study. Everything including library and administrative services guidance and counseling. A system of records by which student progress may be assessed. All of the facilities information that the school employees, professional staff were qualified by training and experience in the areas in which they are assigned. I think that's a really important part to note, because I think what that is intended to do is, you know, we all acknowledge that the licensing requirement is not the same for independent schools. But that's not to say there is no consideration of professional accountability or professional status. This this clearly asks the board to make that finding that they that the professional staff are qualified by their training and experience. And for teachers that they have a minimum of a bachelor's degree in their field of instruction. More on professional staffing that the school substantially complies with all the statutory requirements for approved independent schools, including nondiscrimination and other requirements that are in your are in title 16 and actually title 18 is the immunization of students against disease that the school maintains their register of daily attendance again operational matters financial matters that the school is a compliance with child protection registry in the vulnerable adult abuse neglect and exploitation registry. A few years ago, I believe this bill may have originated in the Senate or maybe it didn't, but I but you did update the law and it's now in the rules that the school complies with legal requirements concerning nondiscriminatory school branding. We have two questions. I think Senator Lance has a question that's in review it. I was the question with that in rule 2226 2226 and these standards that we're holding independent schools to other public schools being held in the same standard. Do you want me to answer that Jennifer? Do you would you like? So the public schools and I don't have this up on my screen to show you but it is something actually the board is is really engaged in at this moment. The statute requires that the board establish education quality standards and it and it notes what those education quality standards need to address. They aren't I'll just say at an overall level they don't on on the whole they are not as detailed as this. They are general but I don't know that I can say that they are more or less robust. They're just different and I am actually doing some work for the board to try to compare and contrast some of the areas where these these rules are the same and whether different for example you know all schools need to have a hazing harassment and bullying policies and all schools need to adhere to the immunization requirements so there there are many things that are the same requirements but as you're seeing right now on my screen the professional development and the professional support and the instructional strategies are different. You know curriculum is decided in an independently governed board by the independently governed or independently governed school by that entity whereas the curriculum in a public school is determined at the supervisory union level. I don't think I quite answered your question they're not exactly the same. I don't think you guys will know but it's hard to see where we can have one standard for academic excellence if we're being held to different standards of compliance so it's very good point. I will point I will let you know that in title 16 you do require the board to promulgate standards of performance and those apply to public schools but you also require them to approve assessments for those standards of performance and the assessments meaning the testing those apply to both and so there is data and this is something you may want to follow up to find out what the data looks like and and you know how that's presented you may want to follow up with the agency but but to say that we don't have a handle on the performance of independent schools versus public schools in terms of academic excellence what we we do have the assessment data for how how students are performing and that's reported up through through the secretary. Senator? Yes I do have a question but I do I want to echo senator Williams great point that it is a shame that we have this bifurcated system with two separate levels of you know assessment and oversight etc etc etc so thank you for bringing that up senator Williams. I am wondering about in terms of the financial viability piece and I'm sorry if you said this Sarah and I missed it but did these items have to be published so for example like when you talk about finances are you required to publish the finances of each school? No actually in the statute in title 16 there are exempt the public records exemptions for independent schools for for select pieces of information and I can get you that precise reference but not all information is public record I can't I can't tell you that you know which documents are and which aren't but I know that there are some exemptions the tuition is not you know the amount of of the cost for tuition is something that's reported and tracked by the agency but there isn't a publishing requirement at this time. Okay thank you so and I will just a couple things to tack on to what Sarah has presented here one is you know just thinking back on approvals that the board has considered in the last you know year or two the question of qualification of staff we declined to approve school because we had concerns about the staff qualifications for at least one of the teachers and there was another school that we considered where we were concerned about the financial viability and you know we have the authority to grant approval up to five years I believe that school we granted approval for one year because we wanted them to come back and you know assure us that they were financially viable so we do take the rules very seriously and you know it's not like we're rubber stamping either based on the secretary's recommendation or what's written in the rule I mean we really do go through these rather thoughtfully the other thing I would say is these rules 2226 that Sarah just reviewed with you that goes to a school's approval so this is kind of like the first lever in the system you know this this is sort of is a school going to be an approved independent school or is it going to be a recognized independent school and if it wants to be an approved independent school even before we get to the question about public tuition funds it has to comply with 2226 and I've just pulled up the the new version the proposed rules which are two-thirds of the way through the administrative procedures act you know for rulemaking and they're organized a little bit differently and it may help this committee or I'm hoping you're pleased with where the board went with this um rather than categorizing the information as here's what you need to have in your approval I'm sorry your application package and here's what the board needs to the findings that the board needs to make we reorganize this slightly so that it's very clear that we that it's not that you have to provide evidence just for an application that everything that the board has promulgated in these rules with regard to operation are actually requirements to operate they're of course precursors to becoming approved but they are their requirements to operate and so as you have the time to go through the proposed rules you will see that they're significantly even more robust not necessarily because the board added a lot of new things but the board had asked me to go into the green books and pull out all of the requirements that are in there that apply to independent schools and to include them in this as well you'll also I thought I would just pause for a second and also note that the board bolstered again the non-discrimination requirements and the non-discrimination um statement in policy so that not only is some of this language familiar to you because we just went over it um but we also added that the agency will develop a standardized method to assess the school's compliance with this subsection um and it shall be used to investigate complaints of non-compliance um and it will be used when evaluating applications for approval by accredited and non-accredited schools um the method will provide indicators of compliance and shall be made available to schools for their ongoing self-assessment the board thought this was really important because I think when we talk about go ahead and interview with him a question I think when the when when the when there's monitoring around non-compliance the some board members were concerned about um without a standardized tool that there may be subjectivity and so they asked to have language in here that would create a tool so that it could be used and would um would would sort of eliminate that subjectivity about compliance okay thank you yeah thank you um I believe there's at least one school right now that's not complying and is still being considered as an approved independent school and I was wondering if you could speak to that I believe it's the grace christian school so the I mean this goes back to my slide about um the division of roles between the the board and the agency and that school has not come before the board for re-approval so there's nothing pending before the board that's something you know that the agency has to go through its process of reviewing and then making the recommendation that would then come before the state board subcommittee before it comes before the full board can you speak to why there's there seems to be a pickup in that process why why is there that complexity that is not um sort of drawing a line in the sand I'm not sure I understand the the the question like why has it not come before the state board or sure why is it held up in the AOE because earlier I thought you said that applications that come to you aren't necessarily vetted by the AOE or they come directly to you so I'm confused no I I certainly didn't mean to communicate that if I did um an application for approval always goes to the agency first because the agency has the staff that then conducts the site review goes to the school prepares the report um that report is then reviewed by agency legal counsel it's reviewed by the secretary the secretary that makes a recommendation the school then has a chance to respond to the secretary's recommendation all of that happens at the agency level before it ever comes to the board and all I can tell you is it has not come before the board so it sounds we were having a little bit of this conversation earlier today that it's it's it's with the agency right now if we have specific questions about moving that along it lies with the agency yes and I mean I don't even know where it is with the agency because again I'm not privy to that information I all we only see a school when it when the agency has completed its review and then I appreciate that it's good clarification uh there's been some confusion out there I think whether it does lie with all of you or the agency uh and so this that part's very helpful okay senator okay oh thank you thank you sure um so I think I was I believe actually if I may I just can local districts one of the things that I believe might be happening somewhere uh local can local districts decide not to send money to a certain school again my understanding is that there is a list that is made available on the agency's website of school that have been approved and so if a school is on the agency's website as approved then that is the signal to local school districts that they are authorized to send tuition payments to that school but if they have concerns that a district that a school is not following kind of following up a certain fuel this question the anti-discrimination piece can do they have the authority and the power themselves can a district say hey we're going to stop this now because it's it's not on the website the attestation isn't there that kind of thing so they I mean I don't believe that a district would have the power to unilaterally make that decision they would have to go through the complaint process which is again laid out and rule and that's a pretty robust process but it starts with someone making a complaint or report that then goes to and and Sarah I believe that's currently in 2220 but now I can't remember yep right here yes I I think that's a really important point because just to confirm what what the chair said it's true a local district the way the system works the board makes the list they approve all of the schools if a school is on that list then the the district may you know pays the tuition to that school they can't subjectively pick and choose which schools on that list they want you know they feel are they feel like they want to send the funding to if they do have concerns and it was a situation you just noted senator campion that they they feel that their the school isn't in compliance unlike public schools independent schools have a fairly robust complaint and investigation process and there's a couple of things that can happen in this regard the complaint can happen and the secretary must conduct an investigation in this case the secretary as they go through this process could remedy the situation if it was you know the form wasn't filled out and the school just needed to fill it out they could say you know you forgot please complete this um or if it's something more substantial they can also put the school on probation while they pursue a formal investigation which may lead to a recommendation to the board to revoke or suspend approval until the board goes through that due process hearing which is required we don't decide if the due process requirement here once once that process has begun the secretary can put them on probation can move through the formal investigation process and then as a result of that investigation can recommend to the board to immediately revoke or suspend the approval and um that like as I said is is unique to independent schools and to follow for some reason could anyone in the state make a complaint or do you have to be in the district for example if I were to review the schools right now and say to myself gosh I want to check all the schools in Vermont this weekend to see who may or may not be putting forward their the the legal anti-iscrimination policy and I noticed oh gosh there's three and I wrote a letter of complaint would that move things along then logically from the agency yeah there's no limitation in the rules um as to who has standing to bring a complaint it just says but but the process starts with a complaint so I want to be really clear on that and it's a complaint that is made to the secretary and then the agency conducts the investigation and once that investigation is in again like there's different you know layers that the the secretary has before it would come before the full board um for our consideration thank you thank you I think this might be my last question but we'll see um I'd love to hear more about the layers you just mentioned but we could do that some other time um once is the time frame by which a school that is lately flouting the rules here by which they need to comply uh before they lose their approval status so because it seems to me as though a school could be potentially discriminating for years ostensibly and and still be approved so is there a time frame that's in in this that's laid out that's a good question and I think you know right now we're kind of between two different sets of rules um so the way the rules are written and I mean it makes sense when you think about it there is a requirement that a school has to timely request re-approval so if a school's request is not timely then they would have to go through the approval process all over again but once they I'm sorry I was timely there's no I that that's could be easier that could be five years timely in geologic terms or in human terms or what are we talking about so if a school has been approved for four years I believe within six months prior to the expiration of that four-year approval they would need to reapply for approval or they would have to apply for re-approval maybe that's a better way to say it so if they've been approved for it wouldn't be more than five years but you know could be one year it could be five years prior to the expiration of that approval period the school needs to submit a complete application for re-approval if they don't they lose their approval status if they do submit it in a timely fashion they are approved until um they're not approved and I did not write that rule but I can intuitively understand that you wouldn't want to penalize a school for the secretary's delay or you know you know whether that's intentional or otherwise you wouldn't want to let the secretary allow certain applications to lapse because for whatever the secretary is thinking you wouldn't want to penalize a school um there's an expectation that the school has to submit a timely application for re-approval but then you know it's in the secretary's hand um this gets us into you know the new version the phase two that we were looking at where we are um and Sarah's put it up on the screen this is new proposed language um this is what the board is currently working on um this is an annual compliance assurance and part of the reason why the board you know took the initiative and put this into the rule was you know at the request of the general assembly um and so what this does is it says that by January 15th of every year the school shall continue or shall attest to its continued compliance with the applicable requirements of the rule series as well as state and federal law um and I just want to point out you know the board had a discussion we put in January 15th as the deadline um because if you think about you know school starting in September if we have that deadline set you know seven months prior to the beginning of the school year that allows families to make decisions about you know do they want their child to stay in that school do they need to find somewhere else to go you know we we didn't want to disrupt families on August 15th and you know suddenly have everyone scrambling to find a school so and Sarah's highlighting language in here that um this annual compliance assurance form um would contain and there's also a process that um this is what happens if the school does not timely submit it so um you know the first step is that the secretary would reach out to the school and say hey you know you haven't submitted your form on time you need to get that in um if they if the school still doesn't then the secretary shall launch an investigation so thank you I was wondering if you could tell me how many schools in total are out of compliance with uh with the rules the 2200 rules I don't know of any um I mean there aren't any that have come before the board so um again it would start with the agency the agency is also required to um in these rule and the current version of the rules is required to maintain records of complaints in schools that they put on probation so you can ask for that that is a new that is a new requirement with the current revised with the current rules I mean it's in place um but they are they are required now to collect that data um I also just wanted just to make sure we put a fine point on um the senator's earlier question about how long can a school be out of compliance right now under current rules as the chair said four and a half years until they have to prepare information but but maybe by July if these rules make it through and over the promulgation point by July it will not be that long this attestation or this um annual assurance is really important and it does two things one it tightens that timeframe to say annually there needs to be a check on whether or not compliance is still in place and if that's not found to be satisfactory remember um chair campion earlier you said can anybody you know launch an investigation or launch a complaint that is true however the board opted in this instance that if that assurance process um uh if it's if it's a school it's failing to meet that assurance requirement the secretary shall launch the investigation so it immediately begins that process where formal investigation could result with revocation and it just speeds up that process a lot faster um so that you Sarah if I may just follow that point in that show in terms of investigation could the secretary also at that point immediately put the school on probation and that and does that halt public funding going to that school when it's on probation um it doesn't halt public funding because that requires a due process hearing before before but it does accept and that that's the that's the constitutional consideration we were sort of juggling here um but it does mean that this is going to be addressed right away the other reason for it is there are uh requirements about disrupting um the student students if you were to all of a sudden saying students can go to that school on Tuesday so they could on Monday um part of the due process requires you know their their interest as well Sarah are she so sorry to be uh repetitive with this question just want to make sure I confirm that currently all approved independent schools in Vermont that are receiving public dollars all of them are abiding by every uh every 2,200 rule right I I think you can't answer it that they are in the same way that you can't say that all public schools are combined with all of the educational quality standards I um so I don't know Jennifer if you have more to say in that because you I think you had already said that you didn't have the complaints but yeah like there are no complaints pending before the board um so I I think you know we have a system of checks and balances that have been set up the board has very you know clearly delineated roles the agency has very clearly delineated roles and you know we have crafted these rules the rules are effective but um you know if a member of the public has concerns about a school the proper process then is to file a complaint or report with the secretary could I just ask but you know if this happens also in a public school if there is a concern that somebody's being discriminated against I did you say I just want to make sure this there's no process for public schools complaint processes um kind of what comes to light with the two committees I'm working with in the board one is handling the education quality standards and the other is working on the 2200 is that the independent school rules are far more robust they have that complaint process in um in there the EQS I understand that I just wondered about the kid who might be in public school yeah yeah so there isn't anything in EQS that has um has that yet there are there is a there is a um um there are mechanisms already available for I'm aware of um special education complaints that the agency is federally required to take complaints related to special education but I think the agency may be able to describe any other complaints and how they follow up on those in public schools but they are very specific in independent schools and not so in the um in the public schools so and I'll just I'll just add to that too I mean if there were a complaint that were filed you know that the agency investigated and then you know referred to the board for a due process hearing and let's say that the board you know took the agency's recommendation and revoked a school's approval status that I mean that that goes right to the heart of a school you know we've now demoted that school from an approved independent school to a recognized independent school um it if it's a approved independent school that is receiving public funds it is no longer receiving public funds there's no corollary with the public school system there might be a complaint but and there might be a finding of wrongdoing but that wouldn't take away the ability of the public school to receive public funds or you know continue to operate as a practical matter yeah and the reason is there were some headlines this summer I think about uh some different students that were being discriminated against and I'm not seeing as perhaps one of the things we could work on is is putting something in place for those students as well um yes there you go well I just wanted to say because I've been through this that uh we there was a district in my um area that uh was found to be discriminated against a student and it went up to the federal level and they were literally under investigation for and how to apply the certain rules for a number of years before they were released from that lawsuit so just yeah I mean I think it's it's it felt very robust I just want to say that much for what it's worth um it sounds like they had to go through the court system well and then they had to follow a bunch of rules to get sort of out of that and it sounds like this wrangling they could maybe if we created something they might not have to go all the way through the system okay you get lawyers and that kind of thing my my my question was um is there do you have a list of public schools that are not following eqs again no um nothing like that has ever come before the board so I I don't even have an answer to the question of are there public schools that are not complying with eqs okay well because it was you were someone was speculating that a few minutes ago that's why I asked the question yeah it's the secretary's duty to make that determination the reason I I raised that is when um um the question was asked you know how many are out of compliance the the monitoring of vermont's education system neither at no level makes this check of you're either in this box or in this box and so it's based on um the the complaints at this point and at least with ed with the independent schools they at least have to go through a five year they have to be up for review every five years or less or less yep if they're conditioned to to say less and so I can't I guess the the question was framed in a way that it isn't possible to answer because that's not the way that compliance is um implemented for education for schools in the state that's a better answer to me than speculating there are a bunch of schools that aren't applying with eqs just just FYI from my perspective yep you know I apologize I didn't I didn't mean to suggest that they weren't if if there were schools that weren't complying with eqs you wouldn't necessarily know that either unless you know there are allegations that might come out in a lawsuit thank you yep okay uh if you want to continue we don't have a lot of time right have you back but this has been very useful and I think for me at least it means we really need the agency of education in to ask the same kinds of questions of them since yeah in my opinion a lot of their work well and again I think it's really helpful to go back to um the slides that really delineate the roles between the agency and the board um and I think you know with with good reason people don't necessarily understand you know how the roles between the two entities are divided um and certainly we need to continue to work on dividing these roles and responsibilities but I think you know these slides really capture what the process looks like um you know between the agency and the board and and the board's roles here are pretty straightforward and pretty simple and that the agency has a lot of work on its plate with regard I mean to go through what we've at what the board has asked and these rules for them to do is extremely time-intensive if it's done well and it and they do do a good job um and I I don't think they have I don't know two staff people maybe in their in that division so it's a um it's a heavy lift and and I think that's worth noting I understand I understand we have a lot on their plate but when it comes to discriminating against children I think that should be bubbled up to the top of the list and we'll have the agency in next week for a similar conversation all right so should we stop there um I wasn't really sure what the committee wanted I can keep going or if we can are there any other key highlights before we shift to act 127 that you think we should know at this point um let me just frankly I would welcome you to come but not come back in when the agency's in but watch the agency's testimony one or both of you to see if you want to there's a chance to respond or maybe you have you both okay let me let me just point out like I am looking at slides you know nine and ten and the current non-discrimination requirements these are rules that are currently in place and in particular rule 22 29 that's the rule you know the next lever now we're talking about an approved school but in order to receive public funds the school also has to comply with um 22 29 um so I would encourage the committee to you know take a good look at that because that too is um pretty detailed in terms of the requirements and then you know we are currently working on applying the principles and goals of act one of 2019 to independent schools and I think the one thing that's really noteworthy there that I would just you know maybe leave the committee with is we have not heard from a single independent school um you know complaining about applying act one to independent schools in fact what we got a lot of were um schools reaching out to the board to say this is great we're already doing this work we appreciate having this requirement in the rules um you know thank you so we we didn't hear any complaints from independent schools you know suggesting otherwise um and I think that's really important hi yeah I just want to leave you with one thought which is one that we hear in all of our committees in this building which is that rules are only as good as their enforcement right and I think that's why we really I mean we're obviously against gotta have the agency in to talk about this and I think it's I think we all might agree it's part of the larger question in terms of how many people are in the agency to do and one of the things that would be interesting to know is do they have for example was there a point person on this do they have somebody or is this something else just honestly in addition to everything else go around and check the anti-discrimination and I think the the um annual assurance will go a long way toward facilitating that that is a new requirement it is not currently in the rule and so that that's work that the board is you know undertaking to close that loophole so that there will be this annual um feedback from schools to the agency again with this provision where if the school doesn't submit it then that would instantly or not instantly but it would it would launch the formal investigation process along with the standardized you know non-objective way of assessing whether or not you know you're discriminating that that rubric and that tool is going to be really important both the independent schools and recognized schools and public schools anyone who wants to use it you would assume you know non-discrimination is non-discrimination and the laws apply equally thank you both thank you if senators ask specific questions for you you're both available sure okay and uh if it seems that the committee wants to have you both back when we have the agency next week or a different time we will be in touch all right thank you all good to see you good to see you thank you both bye morgan let's take five minutes before we shift gears yeah everyone to senate education excuse me um we are returning to conversation around financing act 127 an act relating to improving student equity by adjusting the school funding formula and providing education quality and funding oversight we have a joint hearing next week on school budgets taxes what we're seeing out there we're going to be with the finance committee we're going to use house education and we're going to be with uh ways and needs committee in the house this will help give us a little bit more information on act 127 we go into that question i was giving marty's thoughts okay no i'm getting her self sir i'm good thank you we're all set um thank you yeah that's okay so uh the united center cure let's hear um we are ready to go so miss saglowski thanks for joining us you're welcome you're welcome um i'm here with jeff francis and morgan debilworth we're doing this together the three of us and and uh so i think our approach is that we we can certainly provide you with some basic information um it's very good to hear that you are meeting uh collaboratively with those other committees next week on this topic and then we're really um here to answer any questions that you have that's great thank you so much and uh welcome uh mr francis and mr debil hi what i think we would love to uh understand okay so what we uh we'd love to understand more about how 127 is impacting schools school districts what you're seeing out there i suspect i'd be shocked if all of you are not invited next thursday to have this conversation with all of us uh all four committees so i thought this might give us an opportunity to tee things up and have a conversation so that when we get there thursday it'll be as productive as possible thank you mr chair it is the does the way the system work and i haven't been remotely in your committee yet this year will like one person unmute unmutes at the time at a time to speak is that how is that the protocol oh do you know what gave us the echo there must be something is it possible um how is it now uh perfect oh no it's not can you go get gonna get the it person in for the meantime if you don't want the reason that i ask you yeah let me i'm gonna mute but we can't hear you of course when you mute so there's some kind of little issue but the it person will be here momentarily jack do you have multiple screens open just close one sometimes okay no i think that may be yet is that working better now oh that's perfect yeah perfect okay i apologize for that okay it's for a second for a second yeah just if i don't know if you've got an echo there in a sense i don't have an echo there yeah you've got two senate ed committees here in this zoom and i think you're getting echo off yourself so one needs to be muted they just said to move the speakers away from the the camera or to use headphones so just rank around please okay this might be the sign take it south r and right yeah there's both jeff and both jeff's we believe it's on r and okay anyone have laptop okay jeff do i try again am i unmuting and testing testing one two i think we're still having the same problem i think we're still having the same problem yeah what would you suggest they do oops sorry for that that's a passion yeah really grand ones let's be grand ones it's definitely brownies where's your mac or phone just make sure it's not gonna go on i need to bring my phone and show it's very well and no just kidding is jeff's the only one we've had this year no jeff and both they all happy to hear maybe we should try again should we try to get uh jeff then we try with you sure i think the problem maybe that you have two senate eds open and echoing off each other it's not because he's not thinking we're not doing it right now sound good right now sounds good so bad yeah we're just waiting for jeff francis and we'll check with jeff francis but jeff then you thought it was what i'm seeing two senate education zoom rooms ah is that would that be making and one is not there neither one is muted this one it has nothing united yeah and is there another this one is but that's this room so it needs to be on you yeah and he's not hearing that yeah we're not hearing it now it was jeff francis yeah right jeff francis we give it a shot let's see how you do see how you do so i'll test it again so would you tell him yeah jeff it sounds like you have a speaker on somewhere in your work okay so so i'm gonna i'm gonna move to susie okay okay we're ready to go thanks to thank you thank you miss glowski yes i am here and jeff is uh coming down to my office so he thank you he might have a couple of speakers on in his office and he doesn't somebody's probably reporting him he doesn't realize it mr francis thanks for joining us you heard the prompt uh if you could just weigh in and let us know what you're hearing out there from school districts superintendents others honest on the impact of act 127 sure and if you don't object mr chair i wanted to make just a couple of contextual comments first absolutely okay so number one thank you to whomever has called that hearing for next thursday because i would say that the dynamics about the f y 25 school district budgeting process and the transition to act 127 have a lot of people's attention and even increasingly so so the reason that mr debil and miss seglowski and myself have been traveling together on this topic is because the school wards association the business managers association vasbo and vsa have been working together on the implementation of the law um really since the late summer early fall and we've done a lot of professional learning around the transition to the new weights um because school districts are adjusting to what's referred to in the law's tax capacity as you know that some districts have lost tax capacity where the weights adjusted their their pupil count which is the denominator in calculation in calculating ed spending um has been lowered and in places where the denominator um increased uh it has a effect on the ed spending for pupil calculation the reason that we've worked with vasbo is because that's the association of all the school district business managers um and school boards for obvious reasons they ultimately make the budgets um so i think that we've been pretty effective in supporting our members through that process um and our first testimony on the topic which was in the house ways and means ago on january 9th which seems like a long time ago but was really only 10 days or so ago we focused on the cost pressures that school districts are experiencing in general and the reason that we were asked to talk about the cost pressures is because when the december 1 tax letter came out it had um lots of people's attention because of the predicted 12 increase in education spending f y 25 over f y 24 and the resultant property tax increases um so that was something that everybody was concerned about um i think that's justifiable and they wanted to know meaning the ways and means committee what we were seeing for cost pressures and without um going into great detail on that topic i will say that um and i'm going to run through these quickly um in the post-covid era we've seen tremendous pressures on salaries and wages we've seen a steep increase this year in terms of health care costs we've seen the manifestation of mental health needs societally as they play out in schools and we're also contending with the loss of esser funds esser monies were used to sustain us through the um pandemic and school districts are making individual decisions about whether to retain positions that they created with esser monies and so on and so forth um two complicating factors in terms of the cost standpoint is the recently released um report on infrastructure needs in schools and also just the competitive market for school employees period so in summary lot of upward pressure on school district budgets soon after the um december 1 tax letter was released we started to hear more and more about the potential influences of the common level of appraisal and on january 1 the tax department released its equalization report and school districts i think across the state were surprised to see that um in many instances the common level of appraisal was decreased in communities so we're starting to hear not only about the um 18 increase in property taxes but also what the effects were of changes in cla amounts and how that um is contributing to projected tax rate excuse me tax bill increases in communities across the state so that's an important part of the context second important part of the context is when you consider the education delivery system we operate off a singular education fund but we're deploying the monies from that fund across 120 school districts in vermont and those school districts i think it's fair to say are the manifestational local control so a lot of the features that exist community to community to community um depending on perceived wealth in the community what their historic governance models have been um whether there's been transition in their administrative staff um transition and school board members it all plays out differently so it's a complicated system to begin with when 127 as a transition in order to introduce more equity into the system came to pass it became even more complicated so now we're at a place where um school districts are wrapping up their fy 25 budget preparation the general assembly is right at the start of its own legislative session so when you have that hearing next week i think we should predict that there's going to be a lot of different input from school officials and others representing communities across the state that are going to respond to the dynamics that i just described in an overview and one of the things that we're seeing right now is is act 127 working in the way that it was intended to and a central question i think associated with that implementation goes to a feature in the bill which is the five percent um property tax capping feature that said in order to support the transition both two districts that were seeing added tax capacity and those that were losing tax capacity um what's the utilization of that five percent capping feature and frankly um i think we can um anticipate that it was used differently in different communities so what we just started to learn about over the course of the last week is that some of the districts that lost tax capacity are using it to support um spending both to for lack of a better term use a a soft let you know create a soft landing for themselves but the the you know the conversation in the building and this is now um expanding is what you know what is the influence of that what it means for ed spending overall what the effects will be relative to the ed fund etc um so i was happy to hear that that hearing has been scheduled because um i think it's going to be an important opportunity for local school officials to come in and talk with legislators about just how this is working um so so that's sort of a my perspective on it as of today i think that the influences um community to community with respect to um uh gaining more tax capacity or less tax capacity are going to get ultimately filtered through the question have we in year one of act 127 implementation um induced more equity into the system and i think that's something that's going to need to be examined because the features of the bill that i just described i think are playing out in in different ways so um it's something that has the focus of the three associations um vsba vs a and vasbo um i think it's something that um we both will and need to learn more about um uh and and you know that that's where at least from my vantage point we are today now um i think if i make it central um center do it has a question absolutely oh thank you thank you very much mr francis for this um every time i hear it it sings in a little bit more and i have a better understanding so i appreciate it um my question around 127 and i'm looking forward to the hearing don't get me wrong um but i have the sense that um there's not much we can do to stop the bleed this year we might be able to fix that loophole for next year great question but is there some i mean do you see in your personal opinion do you see a way to uh minimize uh i can't use the word i want to use um yeah i'm trying to be trying to be politically correct and fair in my language um it so we want this to be about equity right so is there a way to achieve the equity that we were hoping to get in act 127 this year so as you often hear when you have folks from the joint fiscal or legislative council before you you they sometimes say that's a policy decision um and i wouldn't i would not rule out um actions that the legislature could take this year but my contribution i think could be to considering ideas that members of the general assembly have itself so mr glowski morgan debil and i i think well have all got experience working with the array of school districts that i referenced but i would not i you know i don't have anything um on the top of my head that would um address any problems that could arise from the first year implementation of act 127 but either after that hearing or before if legislators have ideas um you know i'd be a eager participant in those discussions but i don't have anything to offer right this minute okay if you're talking specifically around what we could do even this year yeah so if the if the um depending on the problem statement right so if the problem statement is property taxes are rising too much there might be some things the general assembly could do if the problem statement was we're concerned that we're not achieving the equity that we'd hope for through act 127 there's some things perhaps that the legislature could do but you know i think it's we're all painfully aware of the fact that the legislature just convened a couple of weeks ago and we're talking about a budget development process that is pretty well um completed right the school district started their budgeting process in october um the data relative to their long-term average daily membership count which is the equivalent of equalized pupils in prior years that was that was not settled until just a couple weeks ago for many school districts the cl a numbers came out on january 1 and school boards who are working with um what they considered to be i'll say predictive tax rates based on the budget work they had done were now confronted with you know steep increases in property tax bills because their clas had fallen so um it's a factor that i did not include in in my opening comments but another complicating factor in this year's budget cycle has been the rapid gain in um in uh real estate values principally homestead values that i would say and i don't have this factually but i think people will largely agree um greater increases in real estate values um over the last two year period than vermont had ever seen before so you know there are people who are more well equipped than i am to talk about how all these factors add up to mounting pressure on the education fund and local school district budgets but um it is true that that's a real factor this year yeah i think one of the things we talked about in this committee everybody's talking about is are we going to have a record number of budgets voted down uh or and then people are going to go back to the drawing board and what's that going to look like for uh the spring and possibly the years i mean if i can make a comment on that the one thing that is gratifying to me is that um folks realize that there's a tremendous connection between state policy makers and what happens at the local level we've got a statewide ed fund that supports all those local school district budgets and if we're in a challenging period right now meaning the f y 25 budget cycle um i think that we should remember that we're all in this together we ought to be working on this together and if there is a way to alleviate whatever pressures we're going to experience then um we should be doing it together i think that the the public hearing next week is a good place um or a good uh initiative to contribute to that problem solving i think that you know there there could be a tendency which i hope folks will resist to point fingers at you know one of the participants or another i i you know as my from my vantage point as executive director of the superintendent's association i think it is all laudable intent on the part of everyone from the general assembly all the way down to local school district officials and to the extent that we have problems to solve both known and maybe unforeseen we ought to all be turning into those problems together thank you and just a clarification on my part it's it's a joint hearing i don't know how the the witnesses i think anybody who's interested in putting forward witness ideas are going to be more than welcomed um but i don't have the impression it's one of our more traditional public hearings where you know anybody and you know wants to come in like sorry i understand okay thank you senator lears is jay for me involved in this church i'll be there great uh i'd be happy to yield not of mr glosky and mr you probably would like to have me do that too i appreciate your message of you yeah you mean thank you yeah so it's just oh we have jeff bannis he said uh mr glosky thank you thank you um i just wanted to add to what uh jeff frances expressed to let you know that um we think it's very important for you to have the most up-to-date data that you can have in this situation and not to be relying only on stories from different districts um so if you if you're able to get updated data um through the agency of education uh we that we think that would be very very helpful i also wanted to let you know that the vsba um just got finished providing a a webinar for our members about communicating their district's um priority needs when um presenting their budget so it was all about how board members can work collaboratively to ensure passage of the budget engaging with their community and strategies for making a clear connection between the budget and the vision and mission and priorities of their um school district so um we hope that that information is going to be um helpful to our members as they're working on passing their budgets and at this point i'd be happy to hand it over to mr debel if that's okay yes please should be about welcome thank you and i don't really have much to add um on top of what jeff and sue have already mentioned i do want to say as as my association business managers across the state have been navigating um the you know additional uncertainty in the budgeting process this year i think it's important to note that everyone whether they're so-called advantage or disadvantaged under act 127 has been steadfastly in support of the underlying law and the concept of equity behind it so that has been universal and i think we need to to mention that right up top jeff had talked about some of the funding um pressures this year and i would just add to that um districts like mine that are seeing more um more students under the new model have been adding um costs that maybe we would not have in the past such as for one of my districts in english language teacher that they did not have in the past that ultimately is the intent of 127 and um and so i think that there should be a recognition that while there are budgetary pressures um they're not all dire or negative if i could um somewhere between policy morgan and sue uh i believe at this point the districts have presented their budgets uh and is there like a collated matrix of who's up and who's down and how it's you know just kind of like district by district on a summary or with that is that best coming from our jfo yeah i don't believe that exists yet i certainly when i'm in one-on-one meetings with folks i'll ask where they are in the process and in terms of whether they're up or down and is their tax rate up or down um but i don't think there's a comprehensive data collection that's out there um since last november okay so we're seeing in the papers that this district just presents the budget it's all this you know but it's not you guys don't have it as a as an organization you don't collect that so i don't my entire game of calling yeah the second time today if he said she's um i cannot do that yes are you are you asking for taxing capacity going up or down or you want budget numbers like how high because what's your increase by district i'm starting the conversation two weeks ago or so with a year's the anticipated the overall budget impact um which you know we're seeing it piece me you know i hear you i just wanted to make sure you weren't talking about taxing capacity but not yet it's really a recurrence if she can zoom in for a minute yeah we lost her just a question does uh is there an education fund surplus last year play into this at all i mean why why was there a surplus because i know a lot of the property taxpayers uh got a check or actually went back to the towns and a couple of my constituents found out about it they were really upset why didn't it come back to me now i guess they're going to apply that surplus that that rebate to the to the municipal education times that i don't know why were that mr robinson oh did you want to answer that i can attempt okay um for the record column robinson vermont and the aid there if julia joins you uh you'll see on the bottom of the ed fund outlook that you all chose to reserve a certain amount i believe about 13 million don't quote me on that uh to the bottom line the ed fund for use in the ed fund this year around property tax rates if that's it what you're referring to senator that is there and i believe the summer first letter is required to incorporate that into any free productions but i was also told that that that rebate that they got from state can only be used to be applied to education that money was held on the bottom line at the education fund to be applied at the education fund here mr france did you want to add something i just um as you know julia rick is the best person to reply to this so if you get her that'll be great the revenues to the ed fund are variable year to year based on the performance of the various tax components that make up of it so you know the the property taxes are a big source of monies for the ed fund but they're an array of other taxes that go in as well and my recollection and she's going to be able to confirm this is that through the covid years the revenues were very strong in the ed fund and some of the expenditures were down because in some instances schools weren't operating um last year with the surplus in the ed fund the general assembly made a decision to use monies for both the pcb program and universal school meals so you know those are policy decisions that the general assembly makes but there is an ebb and flow on an annual basis to both the sources and the uses in the ed fund so julia will be able to give you an expert treatment um of the explanation to the question but my best response is that each year is different and the general assembly makes decisions around the uses of the money in particular depending on what the um resources available to the ed fund are thank you as we're waiting to see if perhaps uh miss ricketer is going to join us i wanted to shift to mr fannett and let's soon or or uh morgan mr davill uh miss glowski did you want to have any final comments no thank you great nothing to have a lot of happy to answer any other questions if they come up thank you good afternoon uh jeff fannett executive director vermont nea thanks for inviting me here to this discussion i'm like jeff rance has said i um i think it's great that there's going to be a joint committee hearing next week we would uh very much like to participate in that and will um i think jeff did a nice job of contextualizing this this is a dynamic budgeting season uh the greatest one i've seen in my tenure i think um and there's a lot of changes at play here and obviously jeff identified to health cares gone up a lot uh salary pressures as those are and those are national problems right those are not unique and exclusive to vermont those are national challenges that everybody's facing across the country so we're not immune to the pressures nationally and people are rational actors and school boards superintendents business managers teachers all act rationally and their kids are they're just their budgets are just simply meeting the needs of the kids really and that's what's um they're all doing uh i don't think they're wasting money they're just uh i've never thought that i think that schools do a good job they're publicly accountable people get to vote on their school budgets uh and that's a good thing and uh they get to elect their school board members that's a good thing we have adults in the lot involved in the lives of children throughout the state uh and likewise that's a good thing so i the dynamics are challenging right now uh back in 2021 it went back earlier this morning and looked at some of my testimony to the uh the waiting task force um we supported the change in the weights um we may have had chat you know differences about how the solution came about but we certainly wanted uh schools to have an equitable have more equitable access to the education fund dollars and we knew there would be transitions and that's why last year the 5 cap was put into place um these were all noble things and and when the december first letter came out uh there were some pressures on it but i think it seemed within within the norms i think the change the big change has been the cla and i i don't know if it was uh sue or jeff um just said it the the increase in home values statewide uh is like nothing i've ever seen and and um that's great because most people their largest asset is their home their home value is going up that's great uh but it does cause with the cla uh some some challenges and so i think that um that was something that's worthy of exploration next week i guess and you'll get some information i'm sure from uh from julia about that and other things um i don't think right now there's any uh magic solution i walked into the state house a week or so ago with jeff francis and we discussed this and neither one of us had a silver bullet if there was one i think we would all have used it by now or at least waved it around uh it's going to take some rolling up the sleeves and some creative minds and i think that sounds like that's what's going to happen next week um so i i it is challenging and uh we know that what schools are doing are meeting the needs of their students and that's that's a good thing it's very helpful yeah question i don't i don't have a solution for senator um i wish i did yeah well i think your point's a good one next week we'll gather and have a deeper conversation with all of us other committees other experts um and see what we can come up with if anything uh for us and if you have said this this might be the situation that we're in and we might not be able to change direction at this point and uh we'll see what happens town meeting day and then what legislature might do after that it's it's best approaching is town meeting day that is versus all right we uh we don't have miss richter available uh she come in when she has time to set things and we'll intro her sentence so we'll have miss richter and later today uh but we um aren't gonna be able to get her anybody have any final comments or questions from uh this group of witnesses i guess the only thing i'm wondering is miss siglowski uh probably have your ear to the ground better than anyone right now around what school district what school boards are thinking might happen in march uh any anything you can say to that about that well i can say they're working very hard to prepare for um that vote and to communicate with their communities um in various ways to make sure that um the most information can get out there and um i you know i think they're um preparing budgets that they feel are responsible and um meet the needs of their students and um and working to pass them yeah well thank you for that anything else okay we will spend anything else no i'm just gonna say thank you okay thank you right committee we'll return at 3 30 for school safety good afternoon welcome back to senate education on thursday july 18th uh we have we're shipping gears to school safety in act 29 we have miss barbick with us the director of violence prevention task force and i'll say and her team uh miss barbick was instrumental in our work last year huge help to us and as we move forward and what we thought we'd hear today is a bit of an update how act 29 is rolled out things you're seeing any concerns any particular successes and anything that you think we need to address the legislative to go into forward and um just as a review we'll just go around the committee because i know there are a few new people here so everyone has an opportunity to know who's to climb the table to start with uh our new attorney but uh not a regime uh senator from one of the counties sure our team iraq you look senator from burlington and shitton and central district from campy and then to county district dig weeks roll in county terry wane and we'll just pick it up with uh this is uh want to introduce yourself in finn or commedia police i'm sanny erickson with uh public safety and other months with safety center yeah okay i'm micah grace i'll work for the vpa on robinson vermont nea uh dnvc deputy commissioner public seat clumsy hedges from my agency of education and my colleague jill rick camp will be joining us shortly she's just running a little late terrific revacca mcbrown with vermont nea running everyone lunch so they didn't turn well it's not as bad as my group is all thing that was a wrap it's that's right for consulting okay thank you for yours thank you um and good afternoon and thank you for the opportunity to appear today um my name is gie farve again i'm the director of violence of the violence prevention task force um within the broad scope of violence prevention school safety has been a large part of the focus for my position um as you recall there were several major sections to act 29 which was passed last session and those sections covered a number of different areas to include options-based response drills and fire drills access control and visitor management policies the development and maintenance of emergency operations plans and training and policy development for school threat assessment teams the work related to the many parts of this act including drills developing eop emergency operations plans which i will refer to as eop's and threat assessment training um started years ago prior to act 29 coming into effect um that work was done through a grant um in that branch was uh awarded to the department of public safety specifically to do work on assisting schools in developing their emergency operations plans providing um in emergency operations plan template that was available for schools on vermont school safety center website um workshops were held designed to assist schools in developing their emergency operations plans and it also included behavioral threat assessment training again this was all fire to um act 29 coming into effect um since the passage of act 29 the vermont school safety center and the agency of education have done an incredible amount of work together on the implementation of the act this you know included a continual collaboration with schools and stakeholders during this process um much progress has been made in the development of policies reporting updating the eop template to include a guidance document and continue training for behavioral threat assessment teams um there's still a lot of work ahead um sonny erickson of the vermont school safety center and jill reed scandal of the agency of education as well as uh caro jill will be here um to go into more of the details of the specifics in terms of the work that's been done uh thus far and work ahead on act 29 um i was going to turn it over to jill to um share that powerpoint and i was going to go into some of the nuances and details of um what a we've been doing in terms of um act 29 implementation is there a good question that's not specifically on this topic it is around safety though um i just happened to be listening to um national public radio the other day and they were talking about the successes of anonymous tip lines in stopping potential islands and schools um i was wondering if she says pain we do um we do have one it's uh safe for vt and that is um an anonymous tip line and the calls are answer 247 um there's a process of identifying you know where that call needs to go um if it's an immediate emergency it would you know go to law enforcement if it needs like uh you know it's a high immediacy type of event or if it's someone's new reporting concern um and there are a number of avid instances you know that they're vetted into the appropriate location for an entity that would appropriately feel for that awesome do we have any data around like how many calls yeah i'm successful i don't have it on hand with me but i can get that data before you thank you any other questions you can say i can answer um again the the um details and nuances of the work that's been done has um been done through aoe and um the romont school safety center is the as is outlined in the act um so i would leave those very specifics to to aoe and the romont school safety center but um happy to answer any sort of higher level questions if you have any yeah um i have heard him totally i've no numbers to back this up but i have heard that it's been difficult to put together the behavioral threat teams i don't know if you've heard anything or if you can speak to that at all but um i can't speak to to how difficult it's been the the training has been offered um and and continues to be offered through 2024 and scheduled out for that um we there is uh was a very in-depth um thoughtful process of developing policy and that policy hasn't come out yet um but it involved a lot of work with stakeholders a very large group of stakeholders so we could get input from a number of different entities and perspectives um it went out for public comment um in december and it's currently with um the agency of education legal to do that policy um so i think that policy will go all the way in clarification um for that and again we'll be as not to in the romont school safety center together very collaboratively in this effort to um guide schools and provide as much support for schools in this implementation process but thank you thank you that's apologies my meeting invites it for so i'm upstairs oh something we like to do then always early yeah that's all right we planned for an easy segue um thank you dig apologies yeah uh jilbert scamble and we director of operations um we have sent over a pretty extensive slide deck which i do not plan to go to slide by slide um the intention there is to sort of remind us of what is in act 29 it's um somewhat complicated i have it open on my desktop pretty much every day and always have to remind myself of teaching the sections um but what i was thinking we could do and please let me know if this works for you um is sort of go through each of the sections and provide a little update on what we've done what's upcoming for 2024 and then hopefully leave time available for you to ask the questions if you have any does that work for you works for me okay fantastic um so as i'm sure d rd signaled and would you mind bringing that up on the screen so those watching yes i yeah i think we spent it or do you want me to try to share i'm not in this new game um i can share but you'll just have to tell me when sure absolutely and i'll try to go through it as i said i'm not going to go through slide i'll go through somewhat organically so i'll try to shout out when i'm hitting a particular slide one thing i wanted to signal is uh just a sort of brief reminder for us on the second slide consideration of the hierarchies because there's a lot of different language included in act 29 so obviously we have state law is sort of preeminent under that are policies policies are passed by school boards either public school boards or independent school boards generally speaking aoe does not develop model policies unless directed to as we are in act 29 sitting under policies are procedures those can be adopted by school boards or school s usd's or independent schools themselves these tend to have an additional level of detail right so there's the you shall do this at a high level and the procedures basically lay out how you do it and then under that are guidelines and best practices and aoe vermont school safety center other state agencies to put out these guidelines for any more expert how how should you do it and within act 29 all of those exist so i just wanted to call those out better all right so what's in act 29 one thing i did want to highlight um because it's it's a fit unusual for us is that act 29 applies to all vermont schools both public and approved and recognized independent schools i'll be coming back around kind of throughout the presentation to some of the challenges i think that our independent schools are going to have in implementing act 29 with kind of same level of rigor and fidelity and it's not for necessarily lack of trying it's for a lack of experience which means at least pieces of work so the first as your top three sections include options based response to violent intruder and fire drills all hazards emergency operations planning access control and visitor management policies and you've got quite a lot of work done in that area already then the last section of act 29 is centered on behavior threat assessment teams i know you all took significant testimony on that and we've done quite a bit of work there but i would say um a lot more to come and i'll be sharing some of those updates with you and then the last section which is not included in this presentation because it's not my work uh workload uh is uh act 29 creates a working group on student protections from harassment and discrimination so that's a separate group that students have worked i think you've already um in previous testimony heard from our uh partners at vsba that some of the initial timelines for act 29 were pretty aggressive and were really challenging when schools were actually not in session so some of those initial timelines are were july 2023 um and i will also call up that we had a sort of planning event starting in july 10 and um as it so happens uh a lot of the state personnel that are involved in the implementation of act 29 also happen to me the uh emergency uh response folks so for example sonny erickson is also part of the law emergency management my operations team and i'm the director of emergency response at the a of me and my operations team as well so we have to acknowledge that created a delay but i would say we've got our feet under us now and we're actually really taking into this work and i think that will encounter so i'm just a few kind of considerations i'm going to bear with me we're going to skip down uh to slide number five um and one of the initial pieces of work that we needed to do was identify a process whereby schools could indicate that they were meeting their requirements for act 29 and we did that this year through an insurance process are we matched up yeah we have great um we did that through an insurance process and that's been um an iterative process and we're actually now in the phase of checking checking the math right and ensuring that all of our sd's sd's have completed their assurances our independent schools have completed their assurances and now we're going to follow up round of work um so it was intended to allow response to certify their compliance with several key elements of act 29 those specifically those initial ones um it did also acknowledge that some of those initial dates for implementation were going to be challenging if not impossible and school was not in session and so it allowed independent schools or s usd's to indicate sort of a future anticipated compliance and it asked them to identify that date and the date was not you know 20 27 right the date was january of this year so now what we're doing is we're going through we're identifying through indicated future compliance and we are reminding them of their obligation to complete that work and to update their assurances uh it also included um uh a requirement that if they've already developed a model of a policy or they've adopted a policy they upload that policy so we've got some data there and it also asked um the respondents to indicate if they have a current behavior threat assessment team that was not information that we had a really good handle on and as i'll indicate as we move through there's some work that they're going to be asked to do in relation to that moving on to section one this was the section that required each school board that operates a school and uh each uh approved and recognized in printed school shall adopt a policy mandated options based response to violent intruder drills and uh fire drills um the fire drills are something that we've developed in partnership with other state agencies and it's an annual thing so there is a lot of update there but for the options based response to violent intruder drills there are some updates uh those drills must be age appropriate trauma informed and options based uh the Vermont school safety center offers a lot of guidance and best practices around this work so when schools reach out and say how do we do this we can direct them towards those resources and our partners at the school safety center um it also required notification that parents not later than one school day for a setting drill so uh and finally i'm sorry it also requires that schools as they complete this work um report that they've done it to the agency of education we've created a drill reporting tool um and we will be doing sort of follow-up on that by annually so they should report by january and by june and then we'll be able to check and uh ensure compliance there uh so i'm going to skip to slide eight and just sort of indicate what is the work that we completed today we did partner with the fba to develop a model policy i think that susie glowski again this happened right as the july flooding took place so there was a mismatching time between when the school boards first drafted their sort of initial policy and did a lot of work to try to get that passed versus when we released our drill guidance which was in september and that was purely a result of flooding just a lot of capacity at the state when we we um identified that there was a mismatch between those we immediately partnered up with the sba and they were able to adjust that policy and now the two things match really well so i think that was an example of maybe a little bit of a bumpy start but actually the strong partnership that we've developed with them which we continue to have ongoing um we also again released our annual guidance uh in compliance with act 29 we also um presented a webinar and provided resources for independent schools around all of the different elements of act 29 this is a place where they need additional support many of our schools are starting i would say it at minus square one uh they might not have an emergency operations plan at all they might not have an access control policy at all and i'll talk about some of the specific challenges that they're facing in terms of access controls um so we we recognize that was an issue we've been holding additional webinars and sort of support opportunities for them and they are actually reaching out to us and to our partners at school safety centers for asking for some advice and how we do this and having um rob evans available as a consultant to sort of talk them through like this is how you might create um access controls in a space that's a shared space or a leased space those are some of the specific issues that are in the schools um have faced we've also offered a similar webinar to public schools um they have as of this moment declined because they've got their hands full but we'll be sort of putting back to them to force and we're always in close contact with um our partners at psa bpa and bsba um so in terms of work plan so on slide nine based on feedback from school partners uh there may be a need to create a small schools working group led by the school safety center to develop uh procedures to support safety um develop emergency operations plans many of our independent schools are very very small you know their staff might consist of two people three people um many of them lease their spaces many of them operate within shared spaces things like a church or a community center and many of them highly prioritized I think as many of our Vermont schools do sort of a combination of indoor outdoor learning learning taking place within the community so how do we balance that really it's a strength of our Vermont education system with some of the requirements at act 29 and so that's I think where um our small schools whether they're public or independent we use a bit of additional support and so we might actually be creating sort of a community of practice around that um as I said we're in kind of the uh oversight and compliance mode when it comes to the assurance so who is reported hasn't uh we'll be using that data and turning it into a public dashboard if you can as one of our compliance and oversight measures that we have um I would say that an additional challenge for some of our recognized independent schools is they're not used to this necessarily this level of engagement with state agencies um and so we're going to have to do some additional touching on some outreach with them all right moving on uh section two emergency operations planning so the requirements are that each SUSD uh and or independent school both approved and recognized shall adopt and maintain an all hazards emergency operations plan it must be reviewed and updated on an annual basis and key component here is that it needs to be as comprehensive as the all hazards emergency operations plan template and it must be developed and updated due for elaboration with local emergency first responders and local emergency national officials this is critical one um thing that we certainly have identified in the experience of the july flooding and then again in december 18th and the the rain event and flooding that happened there is um our experience in working with probably the top 10 most impacted districts is that where they have long-standing firm relationships with their local first responders when we would reach out to them and say do you know where your kids are do you know what families are in need they knew they even though school wasn't in session they knew because they were in touch with their local first responders they have long-standing relationships with them and it was in their emergency operations plan so as the fire department was going door to door they were identifying oh we have three minors in this household we need to let the school district know and they were able to almost immediately start to provide supports other districts not for lack of trying work effort do not have those same kind of levels of relationships in place and so there's a there's an artificial disconnect that exists there and so part of this reason for this engagement is because we've seen the way it actually plays out in real life and the way that it can impact the ability of schools and communities to support students and I'll also say at the state level it impacts our ability to get good data right and to know when we are working with task forces and we are working with FEMA and American Red Cross to be able to say we know we've got 23 kids in johnson that have been impacted and we need to ensure that they're getting fed closed shelter right and that brings a level of detail to our ability to respond so all around it's going to have a key impact where we're at with this is that we are in the process of completing a major revision to the current emergency operations plan we split it into a template which is something that most I want to signal this we're not starting from square one with our public schools they pretty much all of our sd's and sd's already have an emergency operations plan so for them this is going to be a process of revision improvement ensuring that they're maintaining that they're doing training exercises etc etc for a lot of our independent schools this is starting from square one and so we provided a template that they can use that will result in an emergency operations plan and with it a guide how do you this work and as part of this they will also be we've already got these scheduled the law school safety center has a schedule through spring of 2024 they're readying it and emergency management for schools rems training these things go hand in hand right you take the rems training tells you how to do emergency operations planning you identify your team we work on the plan make revisions and updates and you have your local first responders and emergency management officials involved in the process of life so work plan for 2024 these rems trainings and I'm on slide 13 here if you're following along at home rems trainings for schools and local disaster management first responders are scheduled they're starting to run there'll be ongoing technical assistance from the Vermont school safety center with specific supports for small schools who may need to identify how they're going to have these robust plans on the AOE operation team side of things we will be aligning the requirements that you'll keep in templates with our district quality standards so it has a question yes I hate to interrupt you know if you were doing such a nice job um have there been talk about uh the fact that maybe like small schools need a different option yeah okay yeah we are actually doing that review live right now but I think we have a meeting scheduled I think on Monday um so yeah we're going to be going through that template and identifying first we need to sort of define what is a small school right and maybe there's there's different levels and then go through kind of this universal template and try to identify what are the places where you know maybe a a micro school like a very tiny school might not need to have x y or z or this is how they could do x y or z so right and is that something we need to tackle the statute or no I don't believe so I can get we can tackle it senator like the issue municipality I think is required on a local emergency management point this could almost be a man X yeah and so you do you want to speak a little bit this is some of the work that you do sure I would just say that we add Vermont emergency management when we're working with all of the local emergency managers the directors there we always encourage the sharing of plans within their local community so in case there's a response need they're familiar with what processes within their individual schools and their communities absolutely so there should be a really fruitful cross-pollination happening between these plans and that's I think the VEM is really messaging that to their municipalities that they're working with as well um so I think we have a moment of opportunity here and I think the July flight this is going to save watershed moment that's the terrible plan and I it's just the word that came to mind so okay um one thing I do want to indicate uh is and I'll sort of this lies further down in the slide deck but this is the moment to to discuss it um because this work around emergency operations planning doesn't need to be thoughtful planful folks are busy it really does need to engage with local first responders and emergency management folks it's the recommendation of the school safety center DPS and AOE that this deadline actually gets extended this is something that we really feel should be done with rigor and fidelity and we also know that for at minimum our SDs and SDs they have emergency operations but it's not like they're out there with nothing so there's not this great risk and I would also I'm going to hazard a guess here that all of our larger independent schools also have some level of emergency operations plan as well so we do have a recommendation um we can give you statutory language for this that that deadline gets extended out to July between five but we are going to be releasing this template the REMS trainings and we'll be really working the schools to ensure that they're not procrastinating on this one all right um access control and visitor management I think you can do this pretty briefly because it's along the same lines as the drill recording um just so you know we are approaching time we move a little bit okay yeah absolutely so we'll kind of cruise through this section uh really basically they needed to develop healthy most of them have done it it's in the assurances um we do have some caveat language that was included in there around um if the school recognizes a need to leave a specific structure unlocked and it called out kind of what the legislative intent was there I'll signal that some of our independent schools are actually using that caveat language in their policy it doesn't make sense for them to pass a policy for which they're automatically out of compliance but what I want to signal here is that those access controls things like key locks door cameras those sorts of things are expensive and there is no identified funding source for that so it's just something for all of us to consider how to move resource school safety and specifically that infrastructure need um because our our independent schools and our public schools are sort of signaling like this is not something that we necessarily can make work so all right um let's move to the behavior spread assessment I think the as I was walking in with uh uh indicating and and sharing that um the sort of initial work that needs that needed to be done in 929 with the development of a model policy um we have an almost like 19th um we did engage in a pretty lengthy and um in-depth stakeholder engagement uh that included a lot of the advocacy groups that you've heard from last session um that model policy was released on December 1 there was public comment and at this moment AOE legal council is really reviewing that public comment I acknowledge that it's late but I would also say that this model policy is basically foundational to all of the work that will follow from it and that some of the public comment and stakeholder feedback that was given needs really careful consideration and so we'll take you that additional time to ensure that this is done very well um as a sort of order of operations once that model policy is released the next round of work is going to be looking at all of the BTA guidance that has already been published and ensure that it actually lines up with the model policy and then identify what are the tools that our schools need to be able to implement BTA teams the final thing I'll share is that um there is also sort of an immediate requirement around current BTA teams so there's all of these different requirements within Act 29 and it sort of calls out if you've got a current BTA team you need to be in compliance with this by the start essentially the next school year our intention is to support current teams in that process uh one of the ways that we're intending to do this is you all have a budget adjustment act uh request for $50,000 because there was no funding identified for that work you gave it to the house correct we did give it to the house yeah we'll be getting that presentation um and we've we've identified how we plan to use that money uh we're going to be holding a one-day conference slash workshop in late spring it will include um sort of an introduction to the model policy new procedures and tools and critically um some diversity equity and inclusion training we've been working really closely with the Office of Racial Equity they've been great partners in evaluating our current training offering suggestions and then moving forward into the future what I would say about BTA and something that I think we have a strong consensus across all the agencies is that BTA is a program and it should be treated as such we can check the box and implement and say oh we've got we've got teams they've all been identified they're all going to do their reporting but really if we want to do this in a way that has the rigor and fidelity of what's intended in Act 29 I think what our advocacy groups want to ensure that we are not disproportionately impacted marginalized students that we are doing this in a way that's effective that it is not a law enforcement activity but is one of a part of multiplayer system of support that we should treat it as a program and so again I'm sort of identifying future needs for resources that if we're going to do this well we need to resource it if that's part of MTSS is it tier three in that where would you place it online? I think that what we haven't yet done is had an opportunity to actually engage with our AOE MTSS team we've been talking to them but we haven't done yet and so identifying where it is I'm thinking it really depends on the student and what the behaviors are right so is this a student who is just having some challenging behaviors is this a student that is potentially a real risk of absurdity to themselves or others and so then what are the appropriate levels of support that they're sure about? Okay we want to work with our MTSS team to think about how to integrate it. Then I know we're running out of time but um if this has been this may be a discerning question but I was actually trying to see if we're playing into this. That's really interesting. I happen to be sitting in a conversation about that right now um so I don't know that it I don't know that we have a handle necessarily on how those things are interacting and I think it's why we need to integrate it into these larger conversations so there is a conversation that's happening right now around product absenteeism redefining truancy. I would certainly invite you to have Anne for now come in to discuss that work I'm not the expert I'm fly on wall in those conversations but again how do we treat this as an integrated thing and how might product absenteeism be an indicator of other issues that we need in the future. Thank you. Senator she might know you before Puck me you mentioned do you have any questions for our witness? I do not but thank you. Thank you for letting me bring through that as quickly as possible. Any other questions? Well it's just curious on your your emergency health response. Are you discovering it? You said that a lot of schools already have emergency health restrictions. In your rollout are you seeing that schools like other areas that schools like seem to have to now incorporate like is there a common thread on what you're requesting them to add into their EOPs? So do you have anything in particular? I've got one or two examples that pop up for me. I think some things that pop up tonight that we've added some new annexes for consideration I think especially including you know what to do with flooding situations which might not have previously been included in some EOPs but I would say adding support mechanisms around you know specific threats is what comes to mind. That I was I was going to say the same thing. There's been recent incidents that have indicated that folks might need to beef up their response to potentially hazardous or dangerous materials or items on campuses. We're also encouraging as like VDHS and health initiatives that are rolling out that stop the lead or the provision of naloxone Narcan that should be integrated into their EOP planning. How do you respond to a suspected overdose on campus? Unfortunately it's something that everyone should be prepared for even if we're not seeing that happen on school campuses. Thank you. Then we want them to be prepared for it and it should be integrated into their EOP plan. Good and then just final questions very quick. EOP plans are you envision the schools being kind of like community center for preparedness not preparedness but to the natural disaster or incidents of various Yeah so this is something that's actually very close to my heart because I also do school construction and facilities and I think that we really need to start understand that our school buildings serve as critical community resources during all kinds of emergencies flooding power outages blizzard all sorts and we need to ensure that those buildings are resilient and that they can function as such. So for those who are already identified as emergency shelters certainly that should be in their EOP plans and I would be looking out for that as we're supporting them but I think that we should consider that more broadly because I think the critical community infrastructure and should be treated as such if I'm going to get on my soapbox. Ms. Barbara remember looking at this bill last year was there discussion around the state colleges and UVM that it relates to school safety? Not specifically or the independent colleges? I will say this University of Vermont was just awarded a federal grant to look at this very topic so what they are doing is embarking on offering threat assessment training to all of the colleges and universities in Vermont and also large and large and middle level employers mid-sized employers. The great thing about it is they put out the RFP for who would provide that training and it is the same the RFP was awarded to the same group that's doing the threat assessment training that we have been doing for the last several years and are continuing to do in our K-12 schools. So there's going to be this great continuity from what's happening in our K-12 schools to what's happening in our IHEs. But there is work being done in that realm and UVM if you go to their website there's a link I couldn't direct you exactly how to get to it but you can find it and it goes into what their plan is for that training for the next year anyway. Any comments from you Ms. Barwick or anyone else on your team at this point? To Jill's point a lot of incredible amounts of work have gone into Act 29 and some of the dates are aggressive and we're finding that as we're embarking on this road so just that we're mindful of that. You may come back if you at some point to us I suspect to propose additional time. Certainly at this point it's the EOP plan specifically that we've identified that that date is I think probably too aggressive for folks to do it in the way we want them to do it. We are applying for some federal slash state money to support a consultant for the BTA implementation. I think that's a critical resource that we need it's not expertise that we necessarily have in-house at this point and so I'll just identify that that's a resource need that we're trying to fill and that you know we can get that. Yeah and as soon as you can get language to the committee to more then the better we go in Pennsylvania's education to start to put together and that would be great to get that in there. We can definitely commit to getting that together. Anything else? Apologize again for the schedule. Thank you. Great. Thanks for all that you're doing. Great seeing all of you. Thank you very much. I look back to my instructions. Here's about 15-20 minutes. At 4.30 we're going to hear from Julia Richie. I'd like to hear something. I'll say yours so we have a forum. You're taking it very well. Yeah we are just trying to get in. We're just waiting for it with us. Yeah but you know what I know. I was going to go but if the chairman wants me to go there Well I mean literally at 4.30 versus 4.30 I mean you know Ms. Myers you're under a time crunch. Okay don't be quick we'll talk quick. Great thank you both. You're testifying together Ms. Myers and Mr. McGrath. Ms. Myers is from the 10th association Mr. McGrath. Mr. McGrath is the assistant executive director of the Brown Principal Association and we are talking about S87 and we asked our usual suspects if you will in the public education realm to weigh in on the boarders. Great thank you. I've got some prepared this morning and we'll send it to you if we have another. Thank you for inviting us to provide this morning on behalf of the Superintendent's Association and the Principal Association on the proposed S87. All cost education promotes awareness, empathy, collective responsibility to prevent such atrocities in the future, fostering society's commitment to justice, human rights and preservation of peace. As S87 states, according to the Anti-Depamation League over the past decade there has been a marked surge in anti-Semitic and racist violence in the United States and Europe. By learning about the systemic state sanctioned genocide, six million Jews and other marginalized groups, students can profound understanding of the consequences of unchecked prejudice and hatred. We fully support the continued teaching of Holocaust education in Vermont schools. We unequivocally believe that all Vermont schools should be teaching students about the Holocaust. Indeed it is part of the curriculum in our public schools. So the best of our knowledge if passed S87 would be the first piece of legislation to mandate curriculum in Vermont. This would be a significant shift from how Vermont has previously legislated around what educators teach in schools. Currently to quote the Agency of Education's recent testimony about the regulatory framework surrounding curriculum. Vermont's regulatory structure directs local boards to set graduation requirements and develop and select curriculum, methods of instruction, locally developed assessments and the content and skills to be learned within a supervisory unit. Supervisory union boards are responsible for ensuring alignment to state adopted standards and those standards need to be inclusive of the minimum course study delineated in the relevant statutes. BSA and VPA took note of the Agency of Education's call to align proposed legislation within the implementation of the proposed education quality standards and subsequent ethnic and social equity content standards. That work currently sits with the State Board of Education for their consideration for adoption. When adopted these rules and standards will require each school district to provide learning opportunities that allow students to demonstrate proficiency in ethnic and social equity studies including the definition of ethnic groups as defined in Act 1 of 2019 which states impart groups that have been historically subject to persecution or genocide. As of December 7, 2023 the proposed revisions to the educational quality standards define ethnic groups exactly as it was stated in Act 1 of 2019. The State Board of Education signaled its duty to consider the adoption of ethnic and social equity content standards and appointed the subcommittee to begin this work September 20, 2023, according to their meeting minutes. Act 175 of 2022 stated that honor before January 15, 2023 is 24. 24. 24. Sorry. Yeah, 24. 24. The Agency of Education shall issue a written report to the State and House Committees on Education on the status of the Holocaust Education in Public Schools and its recommendations to ensure that Holocaust Education is included in the educational programs provided to the students in public schools. That report has not yet been able to be provided. We have noted the important partnership with the Vermont Holocaust Museum to develop ongoing professional learning and resources to schools around the state. And based on some recent conversations anecdotally with educators, Holocaust Education is currently embedded intentionally into deeper unit studies in line with the C3 content standards and connected to transfer skills. The importance of the Holocaust Education cannot be overstated. This is a vital piece of learning that continues to occur in our schools throughout the state. And we hope that you'll consider to continue taking testimony from educators leading this work. Can I ask a specific question? So yeah, you're representing the principals in the superintendents. So the bill had a very specific outline of the scope of study as far as like the number of hours per year, the number of hours and that it's an annual recommended as an annual training education requirement. Do you agree with that level? Is that something you're willing to do? It was six hours per year. Is that? I think we would point to the part in our testimony that calls on us to consider what we've historically done around curriculum in the state of Vermont. And if we if the legislature is going to move in the direction of mandating curriculum, considering that within the context of the education regulatory framework moving forward. Okay, can you? Okay, so do you want to say quickly? Yeah, I'll try to rephrase. Currently the legislature does not dictate the curriculum. And so I think we would stand that or answer that question with that that six hours, 12 hours would still be within the realm of dictating curriculum. Yeah, it's definitely legislation of curriculum.  So I did have the opportunity to speak to a few curriculum leaders that I was with yesterday. If I can't speak broadly from the superintendent's perspective on this question. But what I did learn from those curriculum directors is that putting some constraints around the hours might actually kind of reverse the course of that deeper learning opportunity when it's embedded within like the framework of the standards. So we we would have fear, I'm not saying that it would happen, that the six hours would become more of a checkmark each year rather than an intentional additive to the coursework. So like, yeah, putting some contact around and framework, we wouldn't want it to just become, okay, we're required to do six hours, we're going to check that off. When currently we believe that the that qualified education is very intentionally built within the framework of their coursework. And I should not speak to the superintendent's at large on that. So I'm just going to quick phrase that from the curriculum directors I've spoken with. Would you pass me your test? Yes. And would you email it please? Yes. Or get as soon as possible? Yes. Because I think there's key things in there that we Mike, would you add to that question or? I agree. Yeah. And, you know, your question is around, I think you said the word training then corrected, right? It's a background problem. Right. And I think that that may speak to a concern that I would have personally around it, right? Is we wouldn't want it to be considered a training, I think our schools are taking right, taking it very seriously and doing in depth work around it. And we want to make sure that that's the case and continue to do that. My apologies. My apologies. Using the word training was something just given my background. I understand that. So education and not education. I think that is important to think about like the resources that the agency is requiring and our educators do they feel like to teach Holocaust studies and that I think that status report that was required was would have been a pretty good opportunity to look at like our educators equipped with the knowledge to be able to effectively teach about the about Holocaust education. And it's unfortunate. We haven't been able to dig into that question a little bit more. Mr. Fannin, I guess my mind's kicking around the platform. No, we don't want to hear your thoughts, sirs. Please. Yeah. Thank you. I just had a quick question, Jeff, before you jump in and sort of statement slash question. You mentioned that there are, there's no statue that we don't have. We don't dictate curriculum in the list. So that's our knowledge. And so I am going to push back a little bit and commit to more learning because I'm not an expert in this, but it seems like yesterday we didn't do a deep mining of Title 16, but we did pick up fairly quickly that it looks like tobacco and alcohol education is mandated in statute. So that's that is like one area where we do dictate curriculum. And then, like I said, we didn't go deep in the title 16, but let's counsel thought that there might be other instances. So I guess it's not, I don't know if we can make that blanket statement. That's pure as even I thought. Right. Yes. Yeah. No, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, forward's worth. Mr. Bannon. Yes. Hello. Bannon's testimony. Yes, I submitted to Morgan a little bit earlier. I think you have that. We do. Thank you very much. Floor to floor. All right. Thank you for inviting me to speak with you about S87, the Holocaust Studies Bill. We full support the continued teaching of the Holocaust in Vermont schools indeed is vital that we never forget the horrors of the Holocaust and that our students learn about the atrocities committed against the Jewish people. As was pointed out yesterday, however, the bill, we think the bill would be best accomplished at stating goals by requiring the proposed act one standards to be revised to include teaching about the Holocaust. The education quality standards or EQS being revised by act one racial equity standards is the logical place to include teaching about the Holocaust and all schools that receive public education fund money should be required to adhere to these new standards. And it's not too late. While amending, excuse me. Nothing. Okay. While amending the new act standards makes good sense, what we at Vermonnie know is that almost every student graduates having received lessons in the Holocaust. Indeed, when I unscientifically admittedly asked teachers last fall, we have a fall tour, if you will, meetings around the state, whether they were teaching about the Holocaust most laughed at me and said, of course, we are teaching about the Holocaust. And I believe you've heard from teachers in the AOE about how the existing and again, Mike here in Chelsea that how the existing social studies and language arts standards already include Holocaust standards. And these standards are, we commonly refer to a C3 and the common core standards as well as the portrait of a graduate. They do not mandate how or what specific content within the Holocaust to teach, but they specify the skills we want all students to be able to acquire through their lessons and discussions. As the AOE pointed out yesterday, that is the Vermont tradition establishing state standards that local school boards career film directors and teachers then implement. Notwithstanding the fact that Vermont's public schools already are teaching about the Holocaust and the state has Holocaust standards, both of which for money a supports for money a poses as 27 for technical and longstanding reasons that you just discussed really requiring what to teach and how to teach a specific subject runs counter to the state's approach to locally accountable public community supported schools, which for money a has always supported. It almost also misses the fact that Vermont's professional teachers are teaching in the Holocaust now as prescribed by these above listed standards. But if a teacher is not teaching about the Holocaust and that needs to be addressed locally and not through a bill. And finally, if you insist on passing the bill at a minimum section five, the effective date should be amended to say that the requirements in the bill are not effective unless and until the agency hires an employee who is responsible for the technical assistance required of the agency. Without that change, schools will be left with a requirement, but no support as envisioned by the bill. Thank you. And happy to answer some questions if you have any. Any questions for Mr. Fatt? Good. And Ms. Richter, here we have she said she's going to be here first. Thank you very much. We do have a question. What would be technical assistance look like? What do you envision with the technical assistance? I don't know. I know that the bill calls for it. And that might need to be fleshed out a bit. Okay.  Sorry. I'm sorry, but certainly the person, there would be a person, a human being, doing the work that currently is not being asked of the agency. We want to make sure that that person's in place to give the support to the schools to do the work. And I think you're not, I'll say it. I have concerns that the agency is understaffed in this would certainly go right to that issue, the heart of that issue, making certain that if we add additional responsibilities to the agency, we have increased staffing. And frankly, it goes along with a lot of the conversations we've been having around a range of issues, making certain that schools have to support and making certain that certain things are being done that we're hoping that they do ask you to do. Agreed. Anything else before we shift to a quick fit school update with Ms. Richter? Perfect timing. Can I just? Yes, please. To conclude with, I think that hearing from facility curriculum directors is super important because they can put it within the context of the overall picture, better than I think Mike and I can do. So. You know, I, yes, I appreciate that very much. I think right now the committee has had enough testimony where I think the committee can maybe with a weekend think about this and decide which direction you want to go. Sounds good. That was one question about Mike and Chelsea. So what what region of the state are you from? Like, where's your where's your experience for you? That's a good question. I will do now that it works in the statewide role, you know, it's four and a half years. You start to get a better sense of the whole state, which has been really one of the best parts of the job. But I've worked and lived in Franklin County. I was a school counselor and middle school principal in Enosford, and then I was high school principal in Montpelier, and I live in Shiton County now. Good. Good. My experience is from out of state, though I'm born and raised multi-generation Vermont family. So I came back to join the Vermont Superintendent's Association from other states. Yes. Sure. Great. Thank you both. Thanks, Ms. Yonfer. Good to see you too. Ms. Richter, do you mind joining us? We have just a couple of questions, I think, for you, and thank you for jumping in like this. Yes, thanks for the help. We know you had a very good day because I believe the emergency ward met. Yes, that's why I wasn't able to join your role here. Yes. So thank you very much. Really grateful. And I think we'll be relatively quick in our question. We're wondering, one of the things that the committee was wondering is has a list started to be compiled of districts around what their budgets are going to look like, whether where the increases are, where there might be decreases? Is that kind of information available? Is that really? Yes. So we're beginning, our only source is the paper or the Superintendent's He's talking about all of us, not just you and Senator Terry. That's correct. Yeah, thank you. Sorry, I meant to be li