Welcome back to part two. I am joined in the studio by Gavin Buckland. We are discussing his new book, Boys from the Blue Stuff. Check it out. Make a great Christmas present, or a great old man present. The link is in the description. You can click on it and order the book. They are excellent read boys from the blue stuff. We finished part one. Everton had just finished third in 1978. So gaf, what happened next? 78th, Lee finished third and then he didn't do a good bit, you know, kick on then. Buy some good players. And then he bought Dave Thomas, the summer before 77th. I don't remember Mickey Walsh. I know that one. Yeah, it was just like that. It was like from Blackfield. Yeah, he bought him in the summer. The goal of the season. Yeah, that was something he did in his career. So Liverpool were after him, you know. And obviously Mickey Walsh, Steve Walsh was his brother, you know. Like he said, I've been the director of football. I don't think I've been in the Walsh family. No, he got Mickey very well now, sadly. And Mickey just, he's one of them. He's a good second division striker. He's just over promoted. Yeah. And he, it's like now we buy a player from the championship. He scored a load of gold in the championship coming in the top flight and it doesn't happen, you know. Dw i gael. And even, I always have Salis Park in 2014, by the way. That gap was still there then. Even though the gap in the divisions wasn't as big. Wasn't as big. You could still tell it wasn't. Walsh was immediately a parent. He wasn't a good brother. He spent £3,000 on him. But then at the start of the season, we go on this long gun beating run. We're the last team on beating in the country Christmas. And I include that run better. I think it's one of Evan's favourite afternoons, isn't it? Of a certain generation even after. Like the Andy King Barbie, you know, in October 1978. We've not beaten Liverpool for seven years. And I write a whole chapter on that. Because it's so memorable, you know. They say goodness on the light is great, but it's like a nice autumn run after the golden afternoon, you know. It's hugely symbolic. That was their best team, 1978-1979. Andy King's goal and the memorable John Motton commentary. It was a suspected favourite Liverpool above Evan, but that's just me. He had all the ticketype things from the Argentina World Cup. So I try and capture all that in the book, you know. Because it was such an emotional afternoon. I remember very well beating Liverpool for seven years, you know. I thought that would be the longest period of time with that. I thought that would be the longest period of time we'd have to go without a diary when. How wrong I was. So the whole chapter on that. Andy King, sadly not with us, he's not with us. He liked a good goal on the telly. There's one right into the top corner. And famously, he covered it also, the famous interview afterwards, where the policeman ran it. He doesn't tell them, he pushes them off the page, doesn't he? So that's it. So Leeke, we're second in the table at Christmas and unbeaten. And then all of a sudden it just falls apart. You know. Because Leeke, Gordon, I think he... I don't think he knew how to build teams. I think, as a manager, I think he's got two things to do when he joined a club, is get the place that you inherited work and properly organise, probably and get the best out of them. But then, after you've done that, play in your own style, watch your toes in style. And I can think of two or three event managers, like Martha Ness was one, who could do well with the plays inherited, but when he's trusting with his own players and stuff, it doesn't happen. I think, to be fair, it probably happened with Joe Royal as well. So I said that Gordon was like that. He was great at getting the best out of plays he inherited. He liked plays he worked hard. But he saw some behind plays, he was 29-30. He sold Martin Dobson, he was 30, both 8.5, he was 30. But why don't you buy a younger player? He brought Brian Kidd, he was 30. Well, you're not going to progress doing that and play big money for them, I'm thinking. Again, synergy. I think in 1979 it was really cold winter and Gordon got a major carbon over cold pitchers, mighty pitchers, you know. And he started feeling. After 80 months where he thought he was the Messiah, he started to crack up a little bit. I think the pressure started to get at them. And the thing to be fair to Gordon, where he was really unlucky, was obviously with Liverpool, is there's a gap now, but that's when the big gap started to appear. Before Gordon, it was always nip and tuck. Liverpool mid 70s. OK, they won a couple of extra titles, but you never thought we can get that back. That being the history of the mid side football, you can get it back. But all of a sudden in 77-70, it was that Liverpool win European Cups. That's on Gordon's watch. And I think of all the other managers, he was the most affected by events across the park. And I think he always felt that he was just unlucky. I think the sheep's getting cold. There's a great one that I've got at home, a great stale of Everton-Vill in February 1981, where there's Mach-Man, Lachford, and Gordon Leith sitting on the bench, and they've all got massive sheepies on there. That was like the reggae, wasn't it, for the footballing and the sheep's sheep. And then, then it all fell apart. He had gone back to money, it was quite a big thing, even then, for play. That position you don't want to be in, where you've got a group of players, where quite a few of them are entering, they've got one last contract left in them. So he had plays in 28-29, who've got one contract left. Or not happy with their terms. And he ended up being Bob-Benn on strike, which is mad in 79-80. Bob-Benn on strike sitting in the stands, completely fit. Team were playing, Bob-Benn on strike, matching that now. So he fell out with Colin, Todd, Mick, Pedych, Dave, Thomas, all left the club, cos Gordon's man management wasn't that great. And he brought a few people in, he was just waiting, waiting good enough. Then the right was on the wall then, he got lucky with a fake up front in 80, got beat by Westam, Franklin Pats, Colin O'Flegg. That's kind of like the first real memory. No one you can just think back to remember that. There's a backstory to that, which I say in the book. That's another one that Evan Moans, only Evan could say it like a play he scored once every year or something, scores in a FA Cup semi-final against Evan. But there's a little bit more to it than that, you see. Because what happened was, for the second game that he played Alan Jones, Alan Devons, he was a great player, Westam, wide left. Gordon moved John Goodman to play right side of the midfield to block him off. So if you see that Kevin Knack, he was playing that game. Because Billy Wright had moved to fall right back, and Gordon had brought Kevin Knack with him to play centre off. So why did you do that? I think it was a second game, changed your centre defence. If you watch that header, Lampard gets between, I can't remember the other centre, it was Mickey Lyons, Mickey Lyons, I'm not clever, because you've never played together before.  Well actually it should be forced. So why you've basically shifted your right back? What's their right back doing? He's popping off in the area to score the winner. And that's the difference between managers who win trophies and don'ts. He was too worried about stopping a second division team playing hard on the win in the game himself. And that was an undercurrent, I think. We're not just with Leia, I think, with Bingham as well. And Gordon said he was unlucky, but a lot of it he just comes to visit himself and said he's self-reflected. Now we get to 81. He didn't feel like you had older me. Well, he acted famously. There's a funny... Gordon had some great comedy moments, didn't he? I think he played... There's a famous one where he played Duc Lla Praag in the UEFA Cup, and Gordon said to the press man, he'd been thrown against Duc Lla Praag, but the game's not in Prague, it's in a place called Prague. No, no, Gordon. It's the same place. Well, that's semi-fat. The game means Liverpool in 81. So, it starts off the season well, but you're much more in the coming, much better. He played some really good stuff, but we're tanking after Christmas, so Gordon's basically his futures on the UEFA Cup run. Beta Arsenal. Gordon's some great. He played Liverpool, and... Eric Harrison. Gordon's in the team talk. Eric Harrison was coach wasn't he? John the talk gives Gordon two match balls, so Gordon takes them in. He's in the team talk. He's going in the match balls. He can hardly go. Gordon's going on the pitch. He's going on the pitch. He's going on the pitch. He's going on the pitch. He's going on the pitch. But it's not funny. Have you gone on on goals? Pise for yourself... I've been in the goal. Bwch is paid out on he's done that game. Bwch is paid out on that.. I love these stuff. He's like my first deal, he was the one because he was referred to. Love it, love it. Ær he's very underrated he's done's, got his back to gold. I think I say in the books that If you did have the turn of pace you would have been an international class because you could read the game really well, you could bring players into it, you could finish it, you just lacked that little bit of pace that you needed at an international level you know. So we beat Liverpool, Clyde Thomas was the referee in that game by the way, beat Southampton, famous game of God's name on the lights. These are the games now where I'm on them now because I'm all on this and Manchester City was the quarter. I don't think I've hopefully not been born if it's very, very fine. Anyway, yeah, but that's right and then so we get to 81, I've got the key game of Leasy, Manchester City quarter final. Two teams in some of the positions, they're completely overshadowed by Man United, we are by Liverpool, they've just got John Bond in. And I remember the quarter final game at Godderson. There's a great line-byte in somebody in the Richard Potter thing that was in Sunday Express. The teams came out like two juggernauts trying to fight for the same lane on the motorway, 70 miles an hour, it was just chaos. And we're winning 2-1 and then the key thing is, Lee constantly went on about this. 50 years after, I remember the intercepts of Backpass and Tate of Backpass, Joe Corrigan, he should have scored, they've had the season, put it in the side net, 2-1. And then I hadn't had enough poor power later on to try it with us equalising right at the right of the city. And then he's gone to all anything and we're not going to get this win. Then he got B3 won it in the main road and that was it. I mean, Philip Carter wasn't one of his finest hours in that. After that game, it's obvious Gordon's going to go. And Carter comes out and says to the press, we're going to be looking at reviewing the manager's position after this defeat. Well, it's quite obvious what's going to happen here. Philip is like, you're going to be sacking him now because he's not going to do anything between now in the next sort of six weeks to keep a job. Just sacking him now. And the worst thing about Gordon, didn't know about it. You know, so the first time Gordon had heard about it was from the press. And so it wasn't one of Carter's. I get the impression that Carter didn't like him. He was very terse.  He gave service. You know, we were lucky. He got a set, you know, fan or couple of semi-fans or this type of stuff Europe. He was just said he did a good job, but it wasn't good enough. Type stuff. So I got the impression that he didn't really like him. He didn't like him. Well, it didn't get on. Yeah, yeah. That was the undercurrent. But we had the poor end to that season, didn't we? Well, the fella passed after the season. We ended up losing 30 every game. And then it was a low down. So 81. Somewhere 81. That's it. You saw it there. Last chance to lose, isn't it? You know, because get it wrong now. And you could be, almost a day or I say, the Sunday on the Newcastle Sheffield Wednesdays, giant of English football in the past. You were all in lower divisions or whatever, not one anything. You know, for ages. And so he couldn't, he wants to drop some. You know, but the other, if it's when the Wave for Cuff final. The Wave for Cuff final, yeah. And there being an agreement that starts the season that he couldn't poach managers during the season. So there were still three weeks left of the season, man. Disactly. Yeah. So they couldn't get Robson. He was the first choice. And then looking, and there was a couple of people that looked at that. I think Ron Saunders, the fella was one. And then they obviously chose Howard. Seen Howard, yeah. Which was a massive gamble. I mean Howard. Howard had been a Blackburn series. He'd obviously done well. He got them from third to the second division. Missed out on promotion to the top flight on the final day of the 80-81 season. Obviously great play for Evan. One stuff hardly regarded in the game. Still only Howard would be what, 35. Really young. Still playing. Still playing, yeah. And that's what I say in the book. Howard's problem was when he left in 74, he was the best player of the club. When he came back in 81, he was still probably the best player of the club. If you're seeing him that season, come on. Come on. Did he play half a dozen games? Seen, yeah, yeah. It was obviously. I remember that. Again, it's like that first season. I remember, I was like, the manager's playing. I remember that, yeah. And he went and watched out good days. He was brilliant. He'd just sit in that middle of the number six on his back or whatever he had, or whatever. And he'd just pop it off. The little, you know, the hour leg in the next day. And he was brilliant. Won't such stuff.  You know what I'm talking about? And that was actually a good move. So Howard. I mean, we had day one. The biggest thing in the year, like the real most vividest thing in my mind, Alan Barley's chip against Birmingham. Yeah, when he thought Alan Barley was going to be, like, the great... He was going to be the... Not sure if it looked like he was going to be the one that carried us to glory, wasn't it? And it worked out quite badly. Yeah. So Howard... I'm not going to go to the magnificent seven people in the last story and you know that, but he Barley was the ancestor one. He was an example of Howard had a nasty edge as a manager, which is for all the shows he'd have either done champagne and, you know, had a show that I love Howard and stuff like this, you know, good for a laugh and all this. He did have quite a nasty streak with players on occasions, sometimes unjustified. I think he... He put Billy Wright out to dry, you know, over the fitness thing. He didn't have to tell the press that he was overweight. He could have just said he's being dropped for discipline. But soon as he said he's overweight, then he's on again. Yeah. So that's the end of the story. End of the day, yeah. He was all right for the time, Billy Wright. Yeah, yeah. And Barley was another one. He bought him and paid big money, 300,000. He was another one. Howard, he'd come to Godderson and Howard said, he'd go there every second game, you know, record. Well, Howard, that's in the second division. Yeah. He'd only played, like, seven or eight matches in the top flight, I think, for Darry. So Howard was buying players at the time. I think that if Blackburn had been promoted to the top flight, he'd bought them for Blackburn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But buying players for everything is a completely different thing. And I think the players he bought early on were very much, like, just the same level or even worse than what he had inherited, you know. And Barley was one of them. And he played at Arsenal in the league and Alan wasn't very good. And Howard absolutely rocked them on the coach. We were in front of the players quite badly. And the dressing room and told the press afterwards. He said, he said, he said told the press afterwards, Alan Barley was not up to scratch. If we could substitute them, I would have done, you know. Rolled them on the coach and Alan Barley was in tears. You know, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think, so Howard did for all those... Other people's shots. Yeah. But I think, as I said, I think there's a difference between ruthless and nasty. Okay, yeah. So we had that. And I think Howard on occasions, I think he had his career. I think as his career developed, he saw some good experience and confidence. But I think early on he could actually overdo it a little bit. And I think he did it with, saying with Billy Rythan, with Alan Barley, where he was a little bit too much. And so you get that. Barley went. No, he didn't. He didn't last the season. He didn't. Mickey Thomas was another one. How many games, 11? 11 games. And Mickey Thomas, he got from Man United. And Howard was quite right on this occasion. He said, I don't want to play in those years in Newcastle.  Off you go, yeah. And he was a big deal then. Yeah. 400,000. Yeah. And so you get that. You have five golf aches, didn't you? Five, yeah, yeah. I talk about the size of his feet famously. The size of six was it? Yeah, it's something like that. He talked about that on the book. I mean, the best three were like Neff and Jim Arnold. Jim Arnold. Mick Walsh was decent as well. And Walsh was the last chance at basketball. But I think Neff was the one that people remember. So therefore not really there for Howard. I think by the time he got to the winter of 81. And so what happens then, you get this extraordinary thing where the deserved team with the stars of the season is the first team by the January. Right school, the Regis, you know, the start of 81, 82. I still got some of the team sheet tonight, like South or Higgins, Rackleff, Stevens, Richardson, Sharp, Irving, Machman, all playing for the reserves. All my Regis, yeah. He was playing the January. That is the first team. There in the first scene, yeah. You know. And so I think he got... How we could deal with that now, goff? Yeah. Howard was lucky. Yeah. Brian Glanville from the Sunday Times always used to say Howard was a lucky manager. And I think he was there because if he didn't have those talents and let's face it, they all became part of the best team when you were a five or six of them four or five years later. By the middle of the first season, Howard's probably gone. Yeah. You know. Both people say the same about Alex Ferguson. Well, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Class of 1992. Well, he was lucky. He'd obviously got United into a good place, but that's where he was lucky. Yeah, yeah. Now with Howard, you'd like that. Harry had the same thing. You know, look at the people I came to, the new system at Belfield in the mid-60s. You know. Tommy Rai Gioro, Colin Ari. Yeah, yeah. People like that. John East. So Howard was lucky. So then he sort of did well. Ended up finishing seventh and sharp. He'd had a good season. Yeah. He remembers first season. Done really well. Well, it's second season, the first four seasons against him. Wally against him, yeah. So when I spoke to him, I was like, obviously the Tottenham Wally. It was incredible. The one ones though. But it's Wally against Lee. We beat Leeds at home in the night game. And he scored the ball at the back of the season. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that's the thing. None of it was televised. And he was. The Spades games televised. Yeah. But the Leeds game wasn't. And he scored against Forrest as well. He was Forrest in the night game 2-1. Two goals. Last minute. I love this. 81-82. And you've had a thing. I kid you. It's great. All of this is really like, when you're talking, I'm going on, sat in a low bull and it's my dad, my brother. It's great. And so the most promised again, you could say, how was the final game? The final game, we drew one moment, was it all. I was in the street. It was the first game I'd gone. With me mate some school. Me dad allowed me to go. 46. 46. Penny Lane. All the way down. We were sat, we were stood on right in the front of the street. And then there go Lee. Paul Bradshaw. Big term to me Paul Bradshaw. Big term to me Paul Bradshaw. Someone put up a sheep and a handbag on the things for him. And he'd given him stick because he had a long hair. He was great. But he still scored a two. I think Melly if she equalised for them. All right, okay. I'll give you one more. These status and football. No, this is just literally from that game. I can't put, I remember, because that was one, that was the, I can't remember, that was the, in fact, whatever. I went every first season, I've probably gone to every game, eight to one, eight to two, for a number of reasons. I had the paper around, I think it was the old joke. But I remember, that was the, and so we finished the season on a high, finished seventh to eight. How was Siann's after his first wanted make, bought into you in the, in the January? Yeah. In a, in a, one then little sliding door moments where I deal for Michael Robinson from blank and fell through. Right. So we supposed to sign Michael Robinson. He didn't. So we had the money, so we bought into you. It was funny, isn't it? My favourite player. It's my favourite player as well, by the way, I love into you. Yeah. And so we bought into you, then you bought Kevin Shea in the summer. So all of a sudden you can see it. You can see it. And then the following year we were playing at Liverpool, but one of the things that Howard is that he is defensive, defensive is always very sound. So I mean, a Blackburn, I think, 100 league, I think he conceded 63 goals in 88 league matches, but only scored 100. No. So if you think how good, you get to, nearly two promotions I was scoring a goal of the game. Yeah. That means you defences. Great. And that's the thing that people have forgotten Howard's first three or four years and when he was really struggling in 83 was nobody complains about the defence. Yeah, it was. Defensively it was pretty sound. We very rarely got a pace. I know the 5-0 game we got a pace. But that's season. Down for 10-0. The 5-0 season. Yeah. 82-83 wasn't it? I think it was 82-83. We started off, we'd be filler 5-0. We'd spares and filler in the week. You were a pin champions filler? Filler. We'd beat them 5-0 seed. He's scored. I want to remember again another game. Yeah. And he'd spares. He won. And then he'd fly in and then he'd get beat in Otter County. Which was for Howard's sort of fair.  Yeah, yeah. But 80, there was a turning point actually where he dropped Billy Wright. Yeah. He was left then with the decision that he'd replace. And that's the first time when Mackleiff and Higgins played centre defence. And they were a really good partnership. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And from then on Howard's teams would go to some of the next five years and he considered that there's less than the goal of the game. Yeah, incredible. You know. And all of that came from Billy Wright. He really... He'd never bought Kevin Sheedy if he hadn't sold Mickey Thomas. Because Mickey Thomas played left midfield. He was left mid, yeah. So he was quite lucky. The two big decisions he made selling Mickey Thomas, dropping Billy Wright to be overweight, he actually benefited from them in the long term because he got Kevin Sheedy and he got Kevin Lackleiff then playing centre defence. The latters coming to the left back. Yeah, yeah. And he never looked to be fair like Kevin. You know. He says himself though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And all of a sudden Higgins and Lackleiff looked apart. So he finished the season really well again. I mean that was the thing with Howard. He always finished the seasons really well. If you have a look at the first three campaigns last seven day games always went six or seven. Do you see a sign for the future when you play Man United in the FA Cup quarter-final, Mart 83? Stapleton. Yeah, like 93rd. Men and McCarty. He played really well again. And you can see then this team's going places if you get it. And the 0-0 on the field as well. Yeah, following. Yeah. Well the team at the time was never less. Of course they both all suffered on the field. You know. Just didn't look like it. He looked about 60. Yeah. Because of his hair and his hair. Well he was a building accountant. That was it. Something like a familiarised himself with it. But yeah, he was 30, 31. But he was good on it. He was decent keeper.  You've got, you know, we ended up finished seventh. Yeah. And then you can see, you know, you've got sharpening heat of being and to play well off front. Kevin is, Kevin just looked quality from the moment. He just walked in, didn't he? He just walked in, didn't he? The thing with, see if he was. Richard was well, Kevin. Well, I love Richard. Fantastic player. He, when he played, the bit of the pitch opened up. He just looked a lot wider, didn't he? Yeah. And Richard was, Richard was, he was left out of the book. And he'd obviously bought me by 82, 83. He wasn't getting a game. No. I always say that Richardson's like, sort of like the George Harrison to Reid and Bracewell's Levin McCartney. You know what I mean? Yeah. But Richard was a great player in his own right. So it was him and Machman in the middle. 83. Ni ar un i by, and I hadn't failed six years later. That's not for a title. No, that's not for Liverpool, you know? Richard was a great... Fantastic. I think so. You see documentaries and say utility players that, no Richard was a good enough player. So he was just a good player. It was just that sadly for him, we had to start playing, you were better. But he was a far better player when he left. If you think about it, 10 years after he left, he was lifting a League Cup with Villeau, that Wembley. He should never have been there, actually. Yeah. A beth yma yn fwy o dddoch chi ddim yn coulwch. Fyddai'n cael ei ffnwyr a'i cael rhan oherwydd yng ngynllun. Enw yr 90 ystafell. A wnaith yn ni gynllun. 1986-1987. Wrath o fewn i ddim yn chionesi, is 83,4 ydy'r crasgwn haf mewn yng ngynyddoch yn gallu trefyeario. Ddi'r rhai-der maker, mae'n rhai-derach yn yng nghymoedd. A'r ddawn yn y llaw ar ddi. Yn y blaen hyn, yna'r rhai-derach. Fyrdd ychydig, ac rwy'n meddwl i'n meddylio i ddweud peirion dweud i ddylchol. Rwy'n meddwl, ac i ddweud, a wedi'u amu'n gwneud i bod cofieinbeidio cael sideddiad. Dyna erbyn amser ond, a byddai'n beth sy'n gollio. I ddweud y teimlo'r cysylltu arall yn rwy'n cywir. Ar y bydd yna, eich eu cyfrifio'n faesau, mae hefyd yn cael ei ddweud, a'r cysylltu'n amser i weld. Rydym i'n應該 Llywodraeth. Byddai'n gwybod — byddai'n gwybod — i'n gwybod atgymwys ein sgwyl. Rwb dneud am y rhan, ac erbyn y blaen. Rwy'n amladau a multodau oherwydd y teimlo oherwydd oherwydd yma'n gwneud. Yn ni i ddim yn ymwys pharmacoladau. A byddai'n gwybod yn y rhan, ac opwy'r Lleingenhawdd. Mae'n 19 y maen i'r aghoriff o'r llei. Rwy'n gwasanaeth y g או. Rwy'n gwneud 20 y pleid. Dawdodd ac pan ei wedi'i gilydd. Felly a byddai ran o bobl yn gweithio'n gweithio a chi'. Pelfygor, mwyaf am gyda'n gweithio'n ymlaen. Mae'r ddivog. Enw'r ddifog galle i nesaf ydym chi'n mynd o'r amguedau. Os yw i'r cefferdd yn ffasiv ac bob yw'r bob yn elu. Peisley ydydai, meddwl y byddai yn adnodd Follow Mewn. Rwy'n gweithi'n gweithio'n amddai'n methu hwnna. I ddim o'r ffordd yw'r ddechrau yn ymellordeb. Rydym yn ei bwysbeth efallai, ond mae'n meddwl y gweithio. Mynd yw'r ffordd yn ymellodillog, yn 1983-1984, mae'n eu bod yn teimlo i ddim ynnoedd ymlaenedd. Fel yw'r gwnaed y tîm, pan mae wir yn llwy o ddim yn dda. Ac mae'n gwaith ymlaen. Rwy'n cael ei fod yn gystyn llwy o'r oedd y mynd i chi. that was the big game o ECilliw. Getten beat 1-0, a 10 min left. We had the cola fronthicioard to Chesterfield in Lee on the left wing side. You've said you've got one of班io креп in any case. I've almost had a few left. – Someone just passing them that. – 5-10 min left. Peter E comes on, too-booame, as you called. Insure scores and Sh during incomplete. – Incher. Ff front o 9000 yna i'r spectator yn cliw'r narself. Yn y street ar y poch ar y peth. Mae ddyn nhw'n twch yn y bydd y bwrdd. Felly mae'r cofyddiadau yn ysgol, mae'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw. Mae'n barat o'r cysylltu, mae'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw. Mae'n greu cwm yn ddyn nhw. Mae'n greu cwm, boi'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw. Fe ffordd ch 분� yn y mlynedd, mae'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw, mae'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw. Mae'n tirosio goref a chrys'MUS. Mae'n gyfamogu hwn i cyntaf. Mae'n tu roeddu 21 o'n gwrs. Mae'n tu roeddu 21 o'n gwrs. Mae'n tu roeddu 21 o'n gwrs. Mae'r iechyd yn ei gyfêmogu. Felly ar y dugfant, mae'n gallu myfyaeth. Chlyw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw'n ddyn nhw. Getwaith am wedi gael wybod yma. Mae gafodd, llarnodd a ddefnydd. Dylunio'r ddweud, mae gennych yn dweud. Ac rym ni'n rhaid yn gweithio eu c ti sydd yn cael ei amser. Dwi'n cael ei gwn yma sy'n maes i maes ei wasgwr companies. Ac rym ni'n gweithio eich bod yn cael ei bod yn ei gweithio. Rym ni'n gweithio eich bod yn cael ei dweithio. Rym ni wedi gwellio eu llanysu i gael ei bod yn cael ei dweithio. Ond mae'n ddod i dim yn gweithio. Um, a'was gwaith cwmpfyrtu nad dwi'n deillio'n rhoi'n gilydd eu gwahodd fathaf hynny'n gilydd arall, mae hwn o'n ddau hynny'n genna'i arddangos eich awdd, mae'n gilydd ar hyn o'r chweithio'n gwahodd yma gysyllt oherwydd yw'r awdd. Mae hyn fyddai'r gwellig, mae hyn yn falch hopor am ddisgu. Mae rondi yma yn gyd, a fi'n ddau, aeth wydd'n llwyn eu ddiwr. I remember that, Andy King a Béadraeth yn I Lord King, he was right behind us and the stand and go and he was going obviously, we were like that. I felt sorry for King, he played and played a few names and just that he was getting good he got a bad injury for him, he was a sunderland when he was doing really well. I think he done us crucial and he beat Stoke in the famous Oxford game. ond hollwch am ystafell. Ac mae'n un bwysig ar y cael eu lleoedd, yn ffraith gwaith, a'r gwleidydd mewn gwirionedd, mae'n gwirionedd. Mae'n gwirionedd, mae'n gwirionedd, mae'n gwirionedd, Ond o'r hollwch o'r hollwch ac mae'n gwirionedd a'r hollwch o'n gwirionedd a'r hollwch o'r hollwch o'r hollwch ac mae'n gwirionedd, mae'n gwirionedd. Ffisco'r ddechrau, byddwch yn wneud Ac roi felly'n argymell ar hyn y dyfodol, gan efallai y mae nhw. Roedd ydw i wedi'u cyd-gaith. Ac yn meddwl iechyd yn ei wneud". Felly mae'r bhwysbeth yn gallu'r rôl o'r cyfion. Mio'n meddwl. Mae'n meddwl i fi. Mae'r meddwl iawn yn meddwl. Fe o'n meddwl i'r meddwl. Mae'r meddwl i fewn o'n meddwl i'r meddwl i'r meddwl i iechydol i ni'n meddwl i tan hon nhw. Dwi wedi gwneud i'n gwybod. Felly mae arnyn i'n gweld i'n gwybod. Felly mae wedi Gael i'r ffans. Rwy'n ei gilydd gan y Pwysigol. Felly mae'n gwaith arall i hynny o'n gweld i'n gweld i hynna. Y bêrddol fod yn gyntaf. Mae'n gwaith gwnaeth y gwn i'n rhoi'n byw'r gwybod a'i gael y gwybod ym yn rhan i'r gwein. Mae'n gweithio'r hefyd i ymddechrau. Rwy'n amlwg y tîm ni o'n fath o'r Cyflau 70-rhyw oedd y cwmaint yn fath o'r Cyflau 70-rhyw. Dwi'n gweithio bod rhywbeth yn fwyeth. Ers i, fel dw i rhai nôl ei ddechrau. Felly oedd yma am y gallai am iawn yma, gan yw'n gweithio ar weithio, ond fydd gennym Ffinnistr Lleig. Ac mae'r dros, mae'r dros 12 yn angen i rywetaeth. Mae ymdd singerio. Yna'r dweud, yw'r hawddai yn gwneud hynny. Felly'r hunau eich arddangos. Rydw i yn ni'n ddim. Oet, mae'r gweithio i am f excel o ran y Llorws a'r Y Lleig 4 m-83-84. Ond wedi cael hyffordd gan gael o hollwyr a'r glas o'r main fel yma mae'r gwneud sefydlach a'r meddwl i fynd i'r gyfleidio. Mae'r llun o'r llun i fynd, fyddwn i'r hyn yn fwyrobog. Mae yna bell hwn ar gŵr. Mae'r llun i gyd i'r chynllun cymryd. Mae'n rhaid i'r gyfle i'r g練, sydd ti'n gallu ei weld i'r llun i ti'r llun i gynnwyr. Mae gylwf yn fawr. Derech chi gweithio fwy ac mae'n gofio gwyllfa, fyddwch chi'n gweithio i gael gweithio, iddyn ni'n da felly ddefnyddio'n gofio'n gweithio. Mae'n gwylltio, mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'n ymlaenion olygu fleet o nadd었어요, mae'n gwyllwch. Mae'n gweithio'n gweithio, mae'n gweithio'n gweithio o'r ddifynol. Yna'r hollis, ymlaenio'n gwisig o'r ddufffio mewn ymlaen, Iwn ni'n itr y waith y sîr i'n stuf yn – – Gag yn presion, a meist fel yn Arfi Broodau. – Ia, ia. – Mae'n awfysi nhw'n rhaid fwy o amdeithasol arall. – Felly, fe fyddwn ni'n ddau i'n bywwch. – Ia, a'n rhaid i'n fwy o. Fyddwn ni'n fwy o'r ffordd o ddweud i'r fanbydd. Ond oes o'n 2,84,5, mae'n rhaid i'r rhaid i'r ffordd i'r ddweud, mae'n ddweud i'r ffordd. Os ydych chi'n gwybod, mae'n credu'r hyn o'n 5nil. Yn y gwaith, yn y dwylo'i ddweud yn 5nil, mae'n cael ei gwybodaeth yn gwelwch gwaith i'r llei. A'n 5 effaith yn yma. Mae'n cael ddweud i'r llei, mae'n ddweud i'r llei, mae'n ddweud i'r llei, mae'n ddweud i'r lei. Mae'r ysgol yn y llwyth arall, mae'n ddweud ychwaneg. Mae'n gweithio i'r llei, mae'n ddweud i'r llwyth. Rice is not easy to watch, some would say. When you get the 84.85 on top of the league, is it even no stars? I think it was probably right. Spears, Manny and I, we probably played a bit more fflad, a bit more tech and that kind of stuff. But we were hugely effective. We could play when we wanted to, but Howard just wanted the title. I don't think he cared how he won the title. ..yn 84-85? You can now? No, no, no. I think he just wanted to win the title. I think we got criticised in some courses for basically maybe not even making the most of the probability. Especially away from home. If you look at that, 12 away wins that season. 10 of them by the odd goal. We never went away from home. We never destroyed teams. No, no, not really. We should have done because we did that all. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wrath ni'n ddigonio, maent rhagwedda chi'n sgwyddi o'ch bywch ar y brwrth ddweud, rwy'n gweithio, a dwi'n gweithio, ei ddarwng yn ardu'r ddweud. Rwy'n gweithio'n gweithio ar yr ardalol, dwi'n gweithio'n gweithio ar hynny. Ond astudio'n gweithio'n gweithio, ond mig nid oed yn rhywbeth. Fe a arriveu am ystau Tamsyn 2 1, fe oedd yn cerddio i'r Nälau 70? Ym April 8, wrth gweithio'n Rhylchau Papa 12. ac rwy'n edrych ar y cyflwyniadau i gyrnodd, gan gael y cyflwyniadau a'r fathau. Rwy'n rŵn wedi ei heb o'r ddegi'r blaid, ac yn ddydd yn dechrau i'r bobl yn gynghoriwn gyda'r braw. Wrth ei fod yn fathau yn cynhargyllu. Gallech i chi fod yn ddi, ac ydych yn rhaid i gyd, crede hwnna, Ond dydog mae'r gyntaf yn ystafell. Yn amlwg nad oeddech chi wedi'i babi'n gwneud yn eich gwirionedd yn 5nil. Mae'r wir yn 4nil i 5nil i'm. We were playing against Russia. Newcastle the January for Nellif. It was sublime. Sublime you know. Bu'r aryth ath was a team that was really resilient. Really fit, but worked really hard. I think saying that, reading Bricewall, and usually for a midfield pair, it's quite alike. I think there was just like that. a gynnyddwch hefyd, fel oedd yn ddweud. Yn ddweud sy'n dweud, y gallwn cael ei bod yn gweithio'r pason yn ddefnyddio'r peth a'n ei ddweud, mae'r ddechrau'r pason yn ddim yn ddweud. Ond oes wych yn ddweud, gofyn, ym ychydig, nhw'n ddweud oherwydd fydd oed, ac mae'n ddweud, felly, mae'n ddweud o'r ddweud o'n ddechrau. Ydw ydw i'n ddechrau. Yn ddweud, mae'r ddweud o'r ddweud, Mae'ch marn was to a wyl disciplined. I'd leave gaps. I'd leave gaps. He'd go wandering around the pitch. He was a bit too strong at that stage in his career. But the baseball was a bit cooler. I think, him and Reid, though they had differences, the way they were alike, that really benefited us, the way that gave him proper pressure, enabled us to do that. We also sharpened in sheet before he was injured. Best player in the country when he got injured. He wasn't by far. He was just fantastic. When he got injured, he was the best outfielder I've seen play for 11 years. He was just the adeb. He was only small, obviously. He got such a goal in him. The goal, he could... He could sense him a field. He came to the club. He wanted to play midfield. That's where he'd fallen out at Stoke. He wanted him to play up front with Lee Chapman. He said he didn't want to play midfield. In sheet, like all the best players, he had a real nasty streak. He could leave us 14 in sheet. He dathled at me sharp. I think in sheet, he was a bit smaller than Stoke. He was really skillful player. He had a baby face, but in sheet he could be nasty. It's injury. When he got injured in 84, I was thinking, I don't want to be the one player on the team. He didn't want to be the last. He forced me for a shot and he deserved it. I think he maybe... He'd looked at the gate of the switch to the place in sheet, but the gate was not wide. He was 27. I think Howard probably wanted Leonard. I think he... I didn't say in the book, but maybe later on. I think he made the story for later. I think he made one wanted Leonard that season. But Grey came in and was doing really well. Andy gave us that experience and know-how and will to win and stuff. That was vital. So we saw the change. He's still 84-5. I always think about it as two different teams. The team with Incheon. Andy Grey. I'd always say, I don't want to be one of the teams with Incheon. Do you think they play a bit more football in the first half of the season? He looked back dead fondy, but the second half, we were relentless in the second half. Obviously Lester away was a huge one. We didn't have a shot. Heath obviously and we had Stephen up front with Andy Grey. It's evidently that was the best out of the board. The club was me. He was just there. When you're at him, you've got Sheedy, Gary Stevens, and Grace and Grey. That was the good thing. They're sitting in and out. There were some good partnerships there. I say about Stephen Stevens. How he'd never played wingers did he? I mean, Sheedy wasn't a winger obviously. He didn't have the pace and stuff. Though he did have pace, he wasn't really a winger. He was more a right side in midfield. He played wards, didn't he? I think like him and Stevens, complementary to the grace. I think because Stevens was so physical, he could get up and down. I think if he did that like a, he'd never had both. He'd had like a mercurial winger. I don't think it would have worked out. I think it would have been the same. But Stephen, because Stephen would get up and down. Again, it's an important pitch. Place with the same characteristics. Made us twice as effective. Like reading Bracewell, Stephen and Sheedy did the same. Stephen and Stevens did the same. And then you had the same with Grey and Shaft, didn't you? Of front. In the big games, say Bayern Munich, you had twice the firepower of front for what you wanted to do. And that helped. And I think, after it became very much, I won't say seppi, but if you see a lot of the big goals in 85 onwards, away from home, a lot of them from seppices. Yeah, yeah. Both spares away was what an exception wasn't it? Yeah, but they were mistakes. But you know what I say about capitalising on mistakes? Both came from mistakes, didn't you? I mean, that's my favourite, haven't you? Oh yeah, yeah. The save by that. We were brilliant man. Do it, do it. And I think that said same in old stars, I think we were second half team as well. If you have a look at those, all them big games from February onwards, all our goals are scored in the second half. Bayern Munich, Raffa Vienna, Luton. Luton. The semi-final. Even Ipswit, that. Fortuna Sithard, all second half. They're all second half, because don't give anything away in the first half and then kick on in the second half. And we were really good at going from 0-0 to 3-0 really quickly. Quickly, yeah. Or 2-0, you know. That was the strength of the team, it's ruthless. Wathford was another one. Wathford was one four. They laughed at 60 minutes. So very much the second half team, because don't run the first half and then the second half. Just kick on a little bit. And when you've got them like that, keep your hands down, the ropes, that's why they were a great team. But yeah, that weekend, and I think he's just alluded to it there, that week I think when team in old stars, but I think when it's the day you've not been to a league game, I've auditioned all season, even though we've been top of the league for most of the campaign. Decided to come the first Saturday in April, we played something on a win fair, 4-1, three fantastic goals. And then we showed, Spears we showed we had a great team, resilient, two championship style. Someone showed that within the team, there was real quality. Real championship quality. Individual quality in the team. Both were great headers, they did Bracewell link-up for the first goal, and then Bracewell to Steven. I mean, that's top, top. Individual quality. Folly a pass on his face, which is incredible. And I think obviously seeing the only other time matter that they've been during the season was obviously they haven't seen you twice, taking three hits. So by April 1985 you got that, the nationally the view of the team had changed. The team are no stars, but actually these are top class. Then we reached the semi-finals against Luton, where we like all the best teams you find the way to win, because we were absolutely, yeah, we were terrible at that. I think after Christmas 84, they were the only team, I think, that gave us any trouble. Saltwell made three brilliant saves, in that. Oh, yeah, the one where he gets down to his left, and he gets there, yeah. Oh, I don't know how he saves his brilliant saves. And then, so, he got through. I mean, I think she of these three kickers wasn't his best one, but it was just I think it hit Brian Steen, didn't it? I think it clicked off Brian Steen, but you can't talk about that.  Play Wednesday off the park for 20 minutes. Absolutely different class to a really tough game. And then, the five minutes before half-time, the famous save from Viradi, won't it? Yeah, Viradi. And then from the corner, they've made that other brilliant save off the other, then Brian Mawr, that's the underside of the bar, and we can see the six corners in 90 seconds and survived.  Yeah, which is still one of my favourite games, I loved that. I loved the end of that game. You know, when the players got me, I made the point in it, in the book, that I hate laps of honour now, because it was not us, but there's families and kids and family dog on the pitch, you know, since when it's been about then. Yeah, now I know. You know, if you watch that, then it's about basically it is, you've got a poshig cameras, photographers, the team going down, a few of the coaching staff, that's it. That's all it should be. It should be family, doing the cleaner and stuff like that. Everyone really smokes it. It's not about then. They don't play every week, and I just think that's nonsense now, you know. I just think, you know, I wouldn't mind if that happens to Godson, obviously, but when you watch, I love that two or three minutes, watching it going on the pitch. Yeah, it's just there's a real togetherness that I think that is quite rare, you know. And I always like cameras, where the cameras, where there's cameras, you can see cameras watching the players, you know, like you saw us observing as a neutral, and that was a fabulous, fabulous day. As I've said many times since I woke up at six o'clock in the morning in the field with the fire extinguisher for company, you know. It was a good night. Yeah, it was a good night. But we'd wanted to show it. Yeah. I remember that night, because I was sitting on the table, having a pint, just thinking, and thinking, obviously a little bit older than yourself, I'd watch Liverpool, and the title obviously, I always knew that David would be the guy that was the best team that everybody wanted to beat them, and they were like, you know, and quite rightly so, and then we're thinking that, then, to suck me where the best team is. That's us now, and I can still visualise myself to staring into my pint, thinking, that's not us. I bounced into school, and all the stick I've sucked. Yeah, yeah. And they couldn't say anything with the champions? Yeah, absolutely, and the story. I wanted to buy my, we've had the record breakers of that time, the most points, the most points that anyone has won it by. Yeah, and we stopped in, we lost a couple of games. There's a fun fact about that season, which is, in all the seasons, that the top fight was 22 teams, which was from 1919 to 1994. Only twice did one team beat all the other teams in the division, at least once. Ever since 1984-85, the other time it happened, in 1969-70. Only two times it happened where one club beat all the other clubs in the division that season, and it never happened twice. And, yeah, yeah.  There's quite a long bit, I'd say, how we talked about it quite a length. How he'd done it as a player and walk around the pitch as a player, now he's watching the players and the satisfaction. Quite, quite emotional. Philip Carter's wife, she was crying in the directors' box. You see, you know.  And then obviously, we go to the Rostadam, and then that was just, you know, and he was fantastic, really.  It was the oldest lad in the first half. Oh, it was on the side.  That was the message of the team. You know, any sort of track, we'll just snuff them out. That one that's been on social media a lot lately, from the Howard's Way film, we have about 40 odd passers, it's massive, you know, but it would have been the great, like one of the greatest goals ever, without a template. I'll feel pleased. I mean, I was at Rostadam, and it was great. And so, there's a nice stat in the book. In terms of winning the domestic double, and winning the European Sophie, there's only been two occasions when an English club has gone into a third, one two of them have gone into a third game leading to a third. That was Man United, 99, won the European Cup, and us, in 85. So we've won two of them, we've got to do the double. I talk about the United game, but I say, they were a good team, United. I think the difference, that game, the early games at United, was obviously beating them in the middle club, three days after the other one. I'm sure they won at Old Stafford, and they had the option of white side in the middle. Was it, yeah? It's like I missed a pen early on in that one. Yeah, at Old Stafford, yeah. And I think that, they were both, obviously, top-class players. And I think it also, Atkinson also played quite a high line, cos he said he didn't want the whole game with Sharp and Grey with standing underneath the United bar. He wanted to keep Evan as far away from the goal as possible. Does he need a Sharp and Grey when he's going to run them? Yeah, yeah. And I think Atkinson was, I like it on, and he gets, I think he's underestimated, he's obviously got a certain image, but I think, he was far better managing people, but he was particularly good managing on one-off games, one-off big games. He had a good record at Wembley, see his record against Liverpool, and I think he worked out, he played against Paul McGrath, and I think he, but obviously, the Bayern Munich game, and he put McGrath and Stapleton on the post-Roll corners and threw in, you know, because I think he thought that's where the threat is. And I watched the game again, as part of my research, and there were 90 minutes on there, 120 minutes, I won't get back. I'm like a lot of them games, even the best teams, as I say in the book, they're just like gold, he was just booting it to me. We just looked flat that day, we just looked knackered. I didn't say in the book, but I think I think they made a mistake. I don't think they saw the combats of Macy's eyes on Rotterdam. He's just gone to London, just to keep the next bit of travelling on. I think he's flying home on the night, then you've got a long coach here. I think give themselves a bit of breath. I think if they stayed in Rotterdam and flown over to it, and stayed on the stage, that would have been wonderful. I don't... shall we say, you would have been able to monitor the players better. I'm sure they were fully prepared for the cut fine, but even just stopping that to Macy, any bit of recovery, we had the post, read it to the outside, the first half, I think they're going to send an off change things as well. Staple some bits back to centre half. But you know how to carry on playing, a tach yn ffwrdd, we've left three off front you say, because in 83 mil cwffan against Liverpool, I can simple everybody back into the defence when they had 10 men, I think 10 men just carry on playing a tach yn ffwrdd, because we were out on our feet I think. I think it's a combination of never that's not never said them so. I think fans are now, you need to show Whiteside's not the fastest in the public, show them on the outside, and I think Neve thinks he's going to do that, so Neve's right by his near post, closest to his near post, thinking that Whiteside's going to go inside, and as that happens, fan now doesn't do that, and he gives the... I was on the top of end obviously very rare, and you're just hoping that, because I was right behind, so I was at the far end, as you hit it, you're just hoping the ball keeps running past the goal, and you just see it, the corner and bounce up, and they just roared on. Horrible. And they were replays in them days, you could have just got the replay. I think they were a good team United. I think they were a good team United. I think it was about... 5 more days rest, I think we debuted them. I know what you're saying, it wasn't like a good play in a post, but I still feel like a few days rest, I think we debuted them. I do think they made the mistake on Battle of the Goat, but I don't finish the season on that sort of, because I talk about... I've talked about 84, 5 seasons, talk about those bats, talk about that. It's one of the most dominant campaigns in football history. When the tight were far games left, when the other pink cup, when the other pink cup, and people say, used to poop here, it's not like the UEFA cup or the other pink cup. See, you're coming this cup that year, Barcelona, Terry Vanables, won the league, they got knocked out, lost 4-1 at the New Campton Mets, Roma, who played Liverpool in the pink cup final, obviously had by Munich, as well as... So there was some, there was close, but they had a pedigree there. I mean, he's the best team in the competition. We were in it? Yeah, we were in it. Exactly, when you look back on that, we were in it, best team in Europe, and that's what I was saying in the book, we were the best team in Europe. In 85, people said, it's fourth.  They finished sixth, I think, in Saria. You know. So they were, you know, by Munich, won the Bundesliga, but we saw them, a good shot, you know. Barcelona, as I say, they won the league. They got knocked out in the first round of the competition we won.  Football, you think they are, no, we're in it. No, we're in it. By spring 85, as I say, one of the most dominant domestic campaigns of any club in history, going for the treble, and the best team in Europe, and the Sabre. So we done far better than some of the greatest teams ever played in English football. Don Evies Leeds never got anywhere near that. Bob Pais Leeds nearly did in 7-7, but they'd lost, they won two trophies, but they'd lost a cup final. So they were never going for the treble of three trophies like we were. You know, Feggs and Seam did it once. Bobby Robson Seam went after three trophies in 81, but didn't won one. Matt Bullsby, Bill Shankly never got anywhere near it. Got what we did in 84 or 5. And people, that's how good it was. That's how good they were. And people forget that. And that's how it went. You see what that does. Just look at that record, the record of great teams and the great managers. Celebrators being great teams. They didn't get anywhere near it. The team, I felt through the cracks because people don't know what they're doing. Obviously the Howard Swathons brought it back to people's minds. But this football never had. Easily, yeah, easily. Because we'd have won an 86 that would be awesome on penalties. Two best teams in your place. Exactly, exactly. By miles. And we'd have had Linnaker in that. Linnaker was unbelievable. That's for the future there. That's for two years. I was always very... I said when I finished the book that 85 was the way to finish. I said I've got to be in a cup final. What a bummer that is. Finish on that. I think it's got to have a historical piece of the end that says that's a minor blemish. And I think Howard said overseas this is one of the great seasons of anybody in English football history. And this is before the money. Even clubs have had loads of money like City. They've not got into like where they can win three trophies. They've won two minutes there. But we did. That's just an incredible achievement. And obviously within the context of the period. 18 months area Howard was getting sacked. He had a bottom of the league and scored 11 goals in 21 games. So there's that narrative as well. It's been around. Fantasticly. Great to just come for it. I feel like having a future. It's the fact. I'll go and have a pint. And finish. Absolutely brilliant. Get the book. What a Christmas present this can be. A couple of weeks before Christmas. All us blues. Certainly ones who've seen it incredible. But if you want to learn about the history of having football club and do it that way. Why not? Get the book to great time to get it. Where can we get it? All these are places on the internet in the shops. And the book's not just for Chris. Chris was born. I always remember. Money can't buy stuff is still selling as well. You've got to get the two books. As you say. Volume two. And we'll be back in two years. Volume three. Big thanks to Gavin for coming in. So make sure you check it out. We'll see you later.


The topic today, we're asking people, what's the big story in your local news? Obviously, there's a lot of news going on here in Washington with the government shut down and all that. But we're curious, what's going on in your country? What's the big story in the news today? For today, we are congratulating Sacrifice Day in our country. And it's a holy holiday in our country and we are celebrating this holiday, how to say, visiting our priorities and so Sacrifice, we sacrifice ships for the sake of God and it's a tradition in our country. The age is tomorrow in Pakistan. Tomorrow is the Eid al-Adha in Pakistan and we are preparing for it and the people are as you know, that the Muslims sacrifice animals on the Eid al-Adha and on the roads and in the market. The people, you will see the people buying animals for Sacrifice Day. And do you have any special plans? Will you be spending Eid with your family? Yeah, obviously I am off from the office and I came home last day and I will celebrate Eid with my family and the activities will be to visit a relative and there will be a gathering and we usually celebrate three days. We celebrate Eid in three days but the first day is special one when the Muslims offer prayer, Eid prayer and Sacrifice their animals and relatives come or you have to visit your relatives. Like I am a student, I am originally Nigerian but I am living right now in Egypt so you know, the situation in country is not like before. Before we can visit our friend Egyptian brothers, our friend they are leaving here but right now sometimes we are not comfortable to go outside to visit our friends. Because of the unrest that's been going on you mean because of the protests and the violence? That's right, yes that's right. So what's going on in Yemen right now? We're asking callers what stories in the news are of particular interest to them. Also you've got the Eid celebrations going on. What's going on there in Sana'a? Okay first of all today is the first day of Eid which is when people, Muslim people go to pilgrimage and KSA so we are celebrating for that and really it's very good to celebrate and have fun because we visit the whole family, we gather and visit each single house. And so what about this year for you? Are you going to be doing anything special? Actually I'm still studying, I'm planning to finish in Shala this year and maybe I will travel to KSA. I'd like to travel there. What are you studying? I'm studying accounting. You know it's funny, we've gotten a few calls from accountants you know since we started the show and so we seem to be popular among accountants and engineers. We often get calls from accountants and engineers. So you like working with numbers then, is that right? Yeah I think all people who are studying accounting, he likes numbers and stuff like that. And we have to put in our mind that accounting we can find in everywhere. It's have a majority of work so you can work in everywhere, they need us. Well great, so what about what's we're asking all our callers today if there's a particular story in the news that you're reading about because you're interested in it. I mean we've got the government shutdown continuing here in Washington although it sounds like there's some progress being made possibly on a deal. You've got the Iran nuclear talks going on. What is there a story going on that that you're following right now? Actually as you know here in Yemen we just went through a revolution year so we have we have many problems here so we are just focusing here about the problems here in my country because you know even the most important problem that we face here is the electricity. Actually there is a bully people who destroy the the electricity. We suffer from this. Sometimes we cannot have electricity for two days or three days so it's a big problem. Well how are things compared to you know when you had the revolution when the president Saleh was forced out? How are things now compared to them? Actually there is some differences some good some are some bad but we have to go through it. For example in the in the Basi regime in the previous regime we're suffering in each deal that we need to to have with the government we have to bribe the soldiers or a person who is in responsible to do our job but nowadays it's comparing to the previous we don't have this problem. We we have our work done without any money paid and there is some problem with the the security. Nowadays it's bad because some people like to have problem here to for example to stall and to destroy the electricity to have their own to have their own achievement fulfilled just their self they don't care about the others. Here today is the first is the first day of Eid al-Adha. I see a lot of people from from another country like Saudi Arabia, United States and London from anywhere. They came here for to see if I like like to see culture and anything here. Now so what about your family back in Iraq? Have you been in touch with them? How are things there right now for for Eid? Yeah but not yeah. They are happy but not okay because yeah there is a lot of a problem in Iraq. It's not safe. They spend all the time at home.  They said my family said we are we are stay at home. We can't get out anywhere. Is there a story that you're following either locally or internationally that really is interest you right now? What's the big what's on your mind? Oh yes let me to be honest with you. I don't like political issues but because Iranian people they are near for they are never for our countries and they I sometimes I hear some news from the Washington from the negotiation between Washington and Iranian government. I'm take care of that because Iranian people they are in the bad situations. They are very really they are they are very poor. Some Iranian people come to my countries to my region they are working working very hard to provide their families a good life but they can't.


Welcome to another episode of GUI Challenges, where I build interfaces my way and then I challenge you to do it your way because when our power is combined, we're going to find multiple ways to solve interfaces and expand the diversity of our skills. And today's GUI Challenge, we're building a loader. So I want to see what kind of loader is your building. But here, check out mine. Let's kick in that intro though. See this little bar that gets to go up and down and we can complete it and we can reset it. It's in an indeterminate state. We're building this and we built it, well I today built it on top of the progress element, which maybe was even regrettable. You know this location. This is so great. This is the debugging corner. I'm just going to hit refresh on all these browsers and we can watch my little script run that kind of just increments them over time. See how this thing is like going up a little bit and a little bit until it finishes. I'm just kind of simulating a loading experience because it's fun. And it's fun to watch. There we go. There's Safari. Anyway, let's do this. Let's go to V. Just hit save in our HTML file and watch them all. Yeah. That's satisfying. Do that work browsers. Load that level. Right. Okay. But I want to talk about a few like interesting things. Okay. See how as I focus here into the Chrome window, an outline shows up over our progress element. Same thing over here. Okay. Anyway, let's also just quickly say the loader that I built today is just the bar inside. For my demo purposes, you know, I have all these buttons. I have this like little card floaty thing it's inside of. That's not part of what I built. I built very specifically the loader inside of here and well, anyway, that's what we're going to break down. But still, look at it get a focus ring. Oh, look, the focus ring is gone because I clicked install focus and it's still showing over here in Chrome. If I click, it'll go away. But anyway, what what's happening here is like when I use my mouse to increase or decrease that after it sets the value on putting focus on the progress elements that it reads it out to screen readers, but I use my mouse. And so focus visible was the is kind of being smart here. It knows that a mouse causes the initial event that led to focus and it knows not to focus it. A mouse user doesn't need to see that focus. Now, if I tab into there with my keyboard and I hit spacebar, notice, I do see the outline, right? This is what focus visible does. It's like intelligent about which input type is doing the work. And even if it's being set from JavaScript, right? So I'm hitting spacebar, which is a click event JavaScript is setting focus on that progress element. I'm not calling focus visible or anything like that. It's just smart like them. But notice this, if I reload and a set timeout sets the value and the focus, it does show the outline. So focus visible is sort of like in an indeterminate state at this point, right? It's like, I don't know if my mouse or a keyword showed it. So defaults to showing the outline. So it's just an interesting thing is we're watching this demo today that that outline only shows up when we do this fun little auto load and set time out of setting it. So anyway, here it is working across all the browsers. You might be able to see it also some of the differences. Like we still have an animated bar here, which is really nice. I can still go to complete, but notice the complete state is missing the little checkmark that's over here on the one in Chrome. And Chrome, it allows me to animate this element where none of the other browsers do. So here, if I decrease and decrease, it's just an instant jump that you can, you can put a transition on there and it just doesn't do anything, which I mean, it's not a terrible, but it does mean that we kind of lose that little fun moment, but it is interesting though, right? That I was able to animate the indeterminate state. And that's just because I'm using a pseudo element at that point versus using the built in pseudo element, like shadow part that comes with the progress element. So let's check out the screen reader experience too. So here I'm going to go to Safari. I'm going to hit command F5 to turn on Mac OS voiceover voiceover on Safari progress for hit control. Just kind of skip a little introduction here, but it already has focus on the progress. And that was because earlier we set focus when the kind of complete event sent. So let's go down to the increase button and control again to kind of help it be a little bit more passive. I'm going to hit increase loading progress 100% how I hit increase. It was already full. Let's go to reset and decrease reset loading progress indeterminate progress indicator website main busy main load. Okay. Let's stop right there. It said the website was busy. It told us that the progress indicator was indeterminate and it told us that it was loading level and this is the loading progress, right? That's everything that we need to know if we can't see, which is really important. So I'm going to tab into increase, increase button, loading progress 20% progress indicator website main busy main. So when the increase button is pressed, I increment state, I update the progress element and I update it in a few different ways so that I know that the, um, screen reader users will be announced the changes and the changes will be represented visually for the actual element there. And that's one of the interesting choices here is that I chose to put focus on the element every update. But that's because I also don't have a demo here that's updating the progress element over and over and over again. So there's strategies for that too, which is during progress, you can put your focus onto a progress element. And if the user clicks or uses their spacebar, you can tell them what the state of the progress is. So it could be sitting there incrementing, incrementing and they're kind of just bored, curious and hits spacebar and they'll get to be told what the value is. So that's a interesting design choice I had in mind here and something that could be done better potentially in whatever scenario you put the loader into. So just something to be aware of, but I did think the announcement was really cool that it said the main was busy, that the website was busy and that's because we have an attribute on some, the HTML elements sort of like the loading zone here and, uh, we're creating this relationship between the progress element and a busy state. So that way as the page is doing something active and it is busy, screen reader users can know where and, and what, and then as soon as it completes, it says that it's not busy anymore and that's a good time to go update content and do all sorts of other things. But just kind of interesting that a progress element has all these different UX attributes from keyboard input to mouse input to being set by a timer, uh, and to being told to the user, how often do you want to tell them the state of the progress, like a visual user can see it in its entirety every update, but what is the experience that you want for somebody who's coming from a screen reader? So really cool stuff. Let's go check out some code next. Here is my HTML. I've got this main tag with an ID of loading zone and there's that aria busy equals true. So when this page loads and this particular case, the element is already busy, even though the progress here is unknown, there's a progress element showing indeterminate. So you, I felt like this was an active space. Something was going to happen. It was just unknown at its time of completion and there was no amount of progress yet. I also explicitly put the indeterminate attribute on here, but you don't have to, if you're missing a value at all, you are naturally indeterminate. So just kind of interesting. I just thought it was nice to spell it out. I also have roll progress bar on my progress element and that's for any browser that doesn't implicitly give the progress element, um, just the various aspects of what we expect from a progress. And so that will kind of marry that up to maybe more of an older browser. We are already described by loading zone. So this is part of the association that we can say this progress element is being described by, uh, this loading zone and there's a connection between their busy states and stuff. And we have tab index negative one. And this is how we've given the progress element and the ability to be focused from JavaScript. We're saying, Hey, programmatic focus is going to be available on this element, but otherwise, uh, don't let tab, um, focus go right into it. So that's another design choice that you could make, um, in your app and say, no, this is a focusable element and we're going to accept events on it, uh, et cetera. So anyway, that's pretty much the HTML, but notice something interesting. We have this label wrapping the progress and the label has a span called loading progress. Let's go back to our demo and this time let's look at it in Canary, uh, nice and large. Do you see that label? There's no label there, right? We see loading level and then a progress bar, but here in the code, we see loading level, loading progress. So this is a screen reader only, um, element that I've used CSS to hide from desktop users. While they're focusing this element, the progress can be better described. And so this says loading progress as opposed to loading level and you could hear that in the screen reader experience. They said loading level, loading progress, 20%. And I just thought that was really nice to have both those things there. Plus, I think it's important to label things. And so just having this label available for the progress, even if it's not shown all the time, it's still a valuable aspect in there. And then here inside of the progress, I put unknown, I do update this also with a string. So I update the, uh, value attribute. I update this string content and I update busy states and I set focus and I do a lot of things as values are changing. Um, but this is the initial loading state. And I thought that was kind of nice. Also, in case you're curious, here's all the buttons. So, you know, increase is calling an increase function decreases calling it. I could probably actually take off these IDs. Yeah, I don't even need those, but whatever. And we've typed some minutes, bleeding it and reset. So, um, that's just what was there. I thought that was mildly interesting to go over, but that's the extent of the HTML. Let's check out some of the CSS. Thanks to nesting, I can put everything inside of one selector here. Well, this year, let's look at these keyframes. What? There's just a 50% position left. That's powering that entire back and forth animation is at first it starts on the right. And then it goes to the left and then at a hundred percent, it goes back to the right. And that gives us a ping pong effect inside it anyway. I thought that was really neat. Let's just leave that expanded too. Okay, let's check out progress and go through some of the stuff in here. First, let's look at the custom properties. And this is how we're going to pivot the colors really easily, and it just kind of makes some of the, you know, long gradients like this one nice and easy to understand what they're for. So we have a track, we have a track size and we have a track progress. So the track is using HSL. We can see this is a pretty light color and this one is in the middle. So probably more vibrant. Yeah, both of them are high on saturation. So those are giving us a really good blues. Our track size here says, pick the smallest between one X and 10 pixels. And then we have this radius here, which is using scientific notation, which I just think it's fun because maybe if I wanted to have like, because this is like a thousand pixels right now, one with three zeros. But what if I wanted an even bigger number? I could just make this a five and then it goes up to, you know, one, one, two, three, four, five, which is a hundred thousand. We have a linear gradient going to right. And we want the track. So it's going to be the same color as the track all the way up to 45 percent. Then we're going to bring in a progress color, right? So here's our progress color. This is going to be that vibrant blue that we see and it's going to start right where this one ends. So that's the trick with zero here is it will naturally start with the last one left off. And so I could change, you know, something from 45 percent to 55 percent or 35, but maybe not 55. But anyway, it makes out really kind of dynamic and adjustable. So then we go from 45 percent to 55 percent. So the width of our ping pong indeterminate like little visual indicator is 10 percent. The width of the element that it's inside of. And then we end it with starting at the end of this one. We go to the same track color. So we're essentially like invisible up until our progress, which is 10 percent wide. And then we're invisible again. We're perceptively invisible. And then we animate that. So then here's our track size, which is another kind of crucial aspect to this, which is the width we're setting to 225 percent. And that I thought made it so that that middle piece bounced really well inside of the container. We saw it go from edge to edge in like a nice smooth way and the height is just 100 percent. And here's the animation, which we just saw progress loading two seconds, infinite ease. So it's going to call those keyframes, which is going to change the linear gradients position to left to right to left to right. So kind of cool. I hope I explain that well. We'll see here. We're resetting some of the styles. So we're setting it to appearance notes. We are using the progress element. We're stripping a lot of the styles that are there. So there's an easy way to colorize the progress element and to get an adaptive one. And that's using color scheme and accent color, which we've covered a lot in this show. And I have some nice blog posts on. So we'll link those here in the show notes. But anyway, we're getting rid of all that. And we're saying, no, we're going to take over and we bring in some custom style. We're going to set position relative because we're going to have a pseudo element. We're setting the height to that track size variable that we set earlier and the width or done at the width. But the border radius to something really large, which is sort of guarantees its round. So in case you wanted to make this loader bar really tall, this guarantees that you're going to have a rounded corner in all those different scenarios. And we set overflow to hidden so that border radius passes down to all the children and becomes a nice clipping area for our animation that we have with the ping pong background linear gradient. Here's where we go adaptive. We set we're nesting here, which is really nice for saying if it's dark color scheme preference, we're going to set the track color to something much darker here. So we dropped the lightness and we dropped the saturation. Our progress is going to say very bright, very vibrant. And we're going to increase the brightness there. So that's just kind of a nice thing to do as you kind of take away a lot of the surface area and a lot of the brightness, but you can still have vibrant like candy colored looking colors in a dark mode. So anyway, here's our focus visible that we talked about earlier. We're giving it the outline color that matches our progress, kind of cool. And here's kind of, I think some of the most valuable aspects of this entire kind of blog post and study is finding these kind of obscure selectors and showing you that you can't group them together. This is just something that you'll naturally want to do is use a comma here and try to drop Moz progress bar with WebKit progress bar. And that is not going to work. Each one is for each browser and they don't have tolerance enough to let one exist and the other one not exist. So it basically fails the whole thing if you show a Moz progress bar selector to WebKit, for example, or to Chromium. So you have to break them up and they all have these kind of funny names, but I've given them some comments here. So I think you should write these down or link the blog post because this stuff is hard to find these days. And anyway, also, look, I have here it starts with the selector and values. So we have the progress element is the context. We're making sure that there's an actual value here so that we're not in an indeterminate state. It's kind of what it means. And then we have this WebKit progress bar selector. We're setting the background color. So this is the track progress bar. Then we have the progress value, which we had as our progress color here, and that's we're setting the background color of. And on WebKit, we're allowed to transition that. So Safari is getting this transition. It just doesn't apply it. Next, we have Firefox and we're targeting its Moz progress bar. It doesn't have a progress value, so we're only allowed to change the background color. And then we have indeterminate here. So notice we have three different ones. Custom properties is helping us a lot and I not have duplication, but some of it we can't really get away from. But here's indeterminate for all of them, which creates the sudo element. It's content is none, so that's how you make sure you get the node. It's inset is zero, so that's going to make it fit all the corners of the space. It's kind of like setting top right, bottom left to zero all at the same time. We have position absolutes so that those go together. Then we set the background color, background size, the background position to right. Remember we were talking about that earlier. And then we apply the animation, which is going to make it go from left to right to left to right to left to right forever. And it's Safari. We're going to target the WebKit progress bar when it's indeterminate and give it these properties. Indeterminate Firefox is going to get these properties. And there's a specialty one I threw in here, which is a complete. So if there's no maximum value, and the value is one because the maximum default of a progress element is one. So it's like using decimal places to show the progress. Point one instead of 10 out of 100, it's point one. Anyway, but I also threw this one as in there as like an added bonus. Like if max is a hundred and values a hundred, we know that this thing is complete. And I use a before pseudo element this time. And I put a check mark on there. So some browsers allowed you to do this and some didn't. And that was just, that was just this case with this element. Some things are not allowed. And we again set the position absolute. We this time use the inset logical property. So we have inset block to zero. So that's going to do the top and the bottom to zero and inset inline to auto and zero. And that's going to push it to the right. Anyway, it's just kind of interesting. We have display flex in the line down center. That's going to make sure our checkbox is in the center, padding in line and so again, since we used logical properties here and we used a progress element in case the directionality of this page changes from right to left, our checkbox will be on the correct side with the element. And so we're just sort of staying within relative flow. And that's what logical properties let us do and think less about directionality. We're just sort of tapping into whatever the document direction is by using logical properties.  I kind of want to reach more and write less and logical properties is a great way to get there. We set the color to white for this checkmark and we give it a font size. So that was it for the whole progress element, but I thought these selectors were really interesting. Putting the pseudo element on there. And if it didn't allow a pseudo element on the progress element, then we styled the progress bar and this progress bar. And it's annoying having to duplication, but custom properties make it pretty fine. Anyway, and that's it for the style. So the last thing we have to go over here is the JavaScript. Let's go check that out. JavaScript over here. Okay, at the top, we've got two selectors. These grabbed the progress element and the loading zone because we need to communicate with those as progress is happening. We set some initial state. Definitely better ways to set state, but whatever. We have this function called around decimals, but this is really because I was working within JavaScript's decimal systems. And like if you do 0.2 plus 0.1, maybe you know this, it equals, I don't even remember. It's like 2.999998 or seven or something like that. It's like, wait a sec, JavaScript can't add decimals sometimes and it is true. And so what we're doing here is kind of correcting that behavior so that I can add in these various functions down below, just my simulation functions, they just want to increment by 20%. So they add by point anyway, whatever you shouldn't need that. But here, set progress. This is where all the good stuff is at. At first, whenever progress is being set, we set the aria busy state to whether or not the state.value is less than one. So if it's at one, it's complete. If it's less than one, it's not complete. So busy is going to be true whenever it's not one. Kind of cool, but that's all it took to set the busy state of the zone. Then we clear the attributes if no value to show and the progress element will show indeterminate at that point. So we remove the aria value now, which we populate as well as value. And that's something that makes sure it gets read to screen readers. And then we cause focus again cause, cause we emptied it out and now it's indeterminate. The new status needs to be told to the user. Then we round the bad decimal math right here. So we take the value and we make sure it's something that we can present. We take the value percent. So we take value times 100 and add a percentage here. And that's what we use as the text inside here. Look, here's valve percent and we use that as the aria now. So that way when it gets read to someone, it gets read as a percentage. So it's not like a progress element is at 0.6. No, I'd say no progress element, 60%. Right, we wanted to read something to somebody that's nice and user friendly. So that's some good UX tips right here. We set the value, we set the aria value now and we set the intertext. And last we call focus again. And that is the extent of the JavaScript. I mean, here's some of my like set timeouts that do that page simulation stuff. And here's my functions for the events, but for the demo. But that's the extent of the JavaScript. We make sure that the aria busy state is set. We manage our attributes, whether or not we're complete or not complete. And we make sure that we populate the value, the aria value now and the intertext. And that's just important for us to reach as many people as we can with this new value. And lastly, we set focus just for screen readers so that they can hear that new value. Awesome, thanks for hanging in there for this GUI challenge. I'm really excited to see what you have created with progress elements. I've seen progress elements in just pseudo elements and all sorts of cool stuff. And I think if I was to do this again, I would build my own. The JavaScript that I've written and the amount of attributes that I can put on something, I do feel there's an opportunity to make a better animated cross browser loader experience if you don't use the built in progress element. So that's kind of unfortunate, but that might just be the scenario that we're at. Anyway, I'm looking forward to those submissions. Thanks again for hanging out and I'll see y'all later on the next GUI challenge.