Okay, well, I'll just get started with the V3 stuff. So there's a few things going on there. First of all, the regular UDPA stuff continues in the background and we're working with the working group there to try and hash out different aspects. Previously it was the transport protocol. Right now we're looking at things like the data model and how L7 routing can be handled in this context. The goal here is actually to do two things, to universalize or generalize Envoy's routing APIs that other proxies might implement them and to have this sort of lingua franca for L7 routing. And in addition, solve some of the scaling problems that exist very concretely in Envoy's API today where everything's essentially a linear match and we're unable to effectively make use of things like tri-structures or hashing deterministically. It's always possible to have an optimizer against what we have today in Envoy, but that's not the direction we wanna go. We wanna actually structurally improve things in the next generation routing API. And so that's currently what we're hashing out there in the guise of the VDPA efforts. Other stuff happening there is we've actually split out the VDPA protocols, including Orca, into a separate repository, which now lives under CNCF slash UDPA and Envoy brings that into its build as an external dependency. And that's then sets the direction for where we wanna go with the V3 XDS API. So moving away from this long-term guide of the effort, we wanna at the end of this quarter cut the V3 major version of the XDS APIs. And given we don't even have V3 offers today, there's not gonna be a lot. That's very revolutionary here. They'll be very evolutionary. We'll be essentially taking the V3, the V2 XDS APIs and removing anything that's marked deprecated will be, there's a few comments around next API major version about doing things. For example, throw away the odd reg X's and just have safe reg X and this kind of thing. And get a better alignment around things like header and path matching and string matching and all this kind of stuff, which was a better ad hoc. And the other thing that we'll probably do is move some of the base types in XDS across the UDPA repository as a sort of a step towards that. So that's essentially what you should expect out of the V3 APIs. But even though this would be a relatively small, it's a magic different from the V2 APIs, we're still following the full API version story. So what it means is from when these are cut, you'll have about a year to start turning down your use of V2 and moving over all your service to V3 and switching over to basically, yeah, to new endpoints, new code path, new generated code, all this kind of stuff. And I think the way to see this really is a canary of the Envoy's API version policy as well as a way for us to actually safely turn down some of the technical debt that we built up. The V4 APIs will probably be much closer towards where we're heading with UDPA and lots of things will be moved into the sort of common UDPA tree there and there will be much more probably revolutionary than evolutionary. I was gonna say, and I think the goal though, I just wanna make sure that from our side, we're on the same page is that, I mean, we're still focusing on making sure that the developer experience is decent, right? So, you know, I mean, that includes like not sacrificing documentation, making sure that we have those. I think I don't wanna speak for Harvey explicitly, but I think our plan there is to have translation tools since we have to do it internally to Envoy anyway. So it's like we're gonna convert probably the old V2 APIs to the new V3 APIs. So we can very likely have a config dump tool that will spit out what the new config would actually look like to help developers transition. But I think just as we go through this process for those that are a little more bleeding edge out there, feedback on the developer experience is useful because we wanna make sure that we're not making things worse. Yeah, I mean, the idea really is by shooting for very low bar for the API changes for V3 or allow us to focus on tooling and infrastructure and process and all this other goodness. And in particular, given that there's very little change between the two APIs really, it will allow us to make sense to not have to, for example, be implemented twice everything that's in V2 for V3. And we'll be thinking very carefully about how we do this translation and automate as much as possible because there'll be a huge payoff from that. Yeah, and then there are a few other things that I would like to fix in this minor rev, which I think I've mentioned to a couple of people. So on the listener and the cluster side, right now we have a bunch of embedded fields that are protocol specific that really either should be opaque extensions or one of, so things like, is it a UDP listener or a TCP listener? Or for some of the upstream cluster stuff, should they be opaque protocol extensions? And right now there are just embedded fields that are null or not. I think there's some low hanging fruit there to actually fix that. Yeah, I think we will optimistically get through some of those. Yeah, cool. Yeah, but that's all on the V3 front. Does anyone have any questions about that? Well, what is the project timeline for V3 right now? It's literally end of September is the plan. And basically whatever we have at the end of September ships as V3.  I mean, if it's an alpha, like why can't we continue to... It was the application clock essentially, it's pushing back even further. Basically, we're at this point where we can no longer deprecate anything and remove it from the API. And this is, it's moving things. We wanted this essentially the clock to correspond with envoy releases, which are end of quarter, right? And if we make it slip towards the end of the year, that's an additional quarter on anything which has been marked deprecated. So anything that's been marked deprecated is going to leave at least from this point onwards for at least a year plus, two months or something like that right now or one month. Sorry, that's not what I meant. I think that's fine. But if we basically snap, or you're saying that at the end of September, if you don't want it to be V3 alpha, you want to actually to be V3. That's right. Okay. So there'll be a very short V3 alpha where we just shuffling a few things around and marking these deprecated. I'm pretty sure it's V3 alpha next week. Okay, I mean, that feels extremely aggressive to me. It is aggressive, but that's why I'm not shooting for a high bar for the actual API changes.  Like if it takes us one week extra, to fix a couple other things that feels like a useful compromise. I don't know if that's the case or not. I'm just... The question is, if it's coming down to like a week or two, would we be willing to just then push the Envoy release back a little bit for this quarter? I'm just brainstorming right now. It feels like a useful compromise. I guess all I'm saying is if we... Let's see where we get, you know, by the second or third week of September and it feels like we're done with the low hanging fruit and we feel good about how things are, then that's fine. But if we get there and, you know, we're thinking, ah, I wish we had one more week. Like we could do a bunch more stuff here that feels like a good use of time to me. Yeah. I mean, the way I think of this is we were basically learning what kind of automation would be useful. So I'm going to buy hands basically do v3 and then we can go back and even push into Q4 some of the automation parts of this work. And so I feel it's important to do is get the right API cut and then the actual tooling and automation beds, some of these things can, you know, for example, you know, the stuff like to keep the two APIs in sync or to make sure we're not violating any constraints on single definite ODR and this kind of stuff. This kind of stuff can be pushed back and we can do it right by hands up the first time around. Sure. I just, I still feel like I'm just thinking through some of the issues just around, you know, even some of the small things that we wanted to do, some of the federation concepts, like making sure that we have named filters, extensions and named host weights and a couple of things. You know, it's like there's some work to do here and I just, I don't think it's in our interest to rush it by a particular date. I'm not saying to let it slip three months, but if we need an extra time, that feels okay. I mean, to the extent that some of these things are incremental, that for example, let's say you could always add a name field to something later on, I feel we could push them back into, we could add them to V3 after it's been cut, right? It's not like V3 is completely frozen. What we're doing is we're banning backwardly to be backwardly in the pattern of change. Here's one thing that I would maybe suggest because I'm gonna be honest, like the existing UDPA docs are like 30 pages and very hard. That's what was two pages, come on. Yeah, it's lots of words. I'm just, I'm just, You're trying to use the diagram. I'm just thinking like tactically, whether it's GitHub issues in the UDPA repo or whatever. And I can help with this. Can we just open issues on like the things that we want to actually fix? Right, like we're gonna pick a small number of things that we think that we wanna fix before we cut V3, whether that's the scalable routing or the listener polymorphism or the cluster extensions, the name filters. I'm just thinking we could open a couple of issues and then we'll have a better idea of what we're. I mean, well, we already have the V3 API label and we have a bunch of these under that. We may even need, we may need to more aggressively triage that label. I'm planning on also doing a sweep of all the various V2 API things and not moving them across as needed and some even though it would be for API. That's fine. I mean, however you wanna track is fine, like whether it's a spreadsheet or issues or it doesn't really matter. But I just think that will give us a better way of collaborating on like, these are the things that we want to, these are the small fixes or small additions that we would like to often be land in V3. And to your point, we can look at one of those things and say, oh, it's incremental. We can add a later. That's fine. But some of the things that I'm thinking of are not gonna be incremental, right? So for example, like name filter configs is not incremental over the current situation. We actually have to fix that proactively. So like let's just make sure that we're getting on top of those things. That's correct. Okay, so let's try. So if at your end, you can make sure everything's filed and labeled correctly. We played it this week and make sure everything in my end's in and other folks in the community can hopefully look at that label and either look at the issues there or at any of their own. Yeah, that sounds good. But my general comment though is that to people who are either on the call now or we're gonna listen to this later is we have four to six weeks basically to make some incremental not revolutionary changes to the API. So if there's things that you want to see now's the time to speak up. So just keep that in mind. And again, I'm just being realistic because it's one thing for us to do this with an envoy, but then trying to reconcile this with theoretically making the other data plans happy. I'm less convinced that the timeline is going to work unless we take a harder line on just this is what we're doing. When we got the data plans happy. Well, I'm just saying is that even looking at your existing routing PR, the first sketch of it. Yeah, that's not gonna go into V3. That will go into V4. While we're going to V3, we're gonna move some base types across as a sort of just testing. Oh, okay, sorry. Then maybe I'm a little confused then. So what is that PR then? Like what are we? That PR is gonna probably be... So I think all the UDPA data model and transport protocol stuff, like the meat of all this stuff is essentially gonna probably land over the coming year in alpha states in V4. It's a really thing that using envoy's clock, it'll be V4 alpha, right? I see what you're saying. Oh, okay, okay, okay. So basically we'll snap V3 with very minor changes, move a couple of things into UDPA repo and then we'll start work on V4 alpha. Yes.  What is the point of V3 then? Why don't we just start with V3 alpha being UDPA? It's a deprecation sweep. It allows us to basically clean up anything we've not deprecated, which we're not going to remove from the API at this point. And obviously, and then other random stuff, which is just kind of a bit ugly and we would like to... Got it, okay, all right. Okay, I mean, I guess it seems fine. I just, I'm not sure that it actually really matters that much. Like I feel like we could just go straight. We could make V4 alpha, V3 alpha. I mean, if we're willing to live with all the deprecations and sort of... Yeah, I'll speak up here. I'd rather not have three years worth of deprecated features. Like, okay. And plus I think it's worthwhile getting a feel for the tooling of having two versions in progress, like sooner rather than later. Just like feature flags or whatever else. Like there was a bunch of work that we didn't anticipate that just got piled on. So having like a minimal change that's not going to be super painful, learning how to support to in parallel and then doing like the big one makes a lot of sense to me. Okay. Launch it early. Sounds good. That's all from me. There's Jot Cookie Support. So hi, my name is Jeremy. I'm from Duo Security and new to the Envoy Group week. I guess I'm not actually technically in the Envoy Group but joined to say hi. There's a group of researchers at Duo who are looking into Istio a lot, which uses Envoy. Everywhere is the communications backbone. And we've been investigating... So Istio currently for Auth currently uses Jots as a HTTP authorization header to authenticate users as they make connections into their applications within Istio. And the Envoy proxy supports pulling Jots out of an HTTP authorization header but doesn't currently support pulling it out of a cookie. And there's a number of GitHub issues on like the Istio issue page that people are asking for this feature. We were looking into this feature. Just last week, we discovered that the Istio group is working on an OIDC auth proposal that might sort of supplant the idea of using Jots in cookies directly. But it's something that we were looking into. And so I was hoping to sort of just say hi and pull the room and see if anybody had thoughts on that if we were going to look into that and maybe submit like a pull request sometime in the future. Yeah, the story of the Jot authentication in Istio is a little bit complicated and the Jot authentication filter is diverged from what we have in Envoy upstream right now. So I think the feature of like extracting Jots from headers a little bit improved in the upstream Envoy, I didn't follow what have done in Istio proxy right now. So it might be already usable with the upstream Jots filter in Envoy but not supported in Istio proxy yet. So that's one thing the tech that we have in Istio site. And also the OIDC group is like is trying to do more comprehensive story of supporting OIDC with the Jot authentication. So that's the current status. Yeah, I've been looking into the OIDC proposal and that's looking really good. We're gonna join the meetup on that proposal tomorrow. If I know more about that. But I guess, so just to clarify you mentioned that upstream Envoy has Jot support in the authorization header. Were you saying that it also already has support in where it can pull Jots out of cookies? Yes, I think so. We recently added up, there's recently a PR is for supporting extracting Jots from other header and matching from part of the like header like semicolon equal based like the which field to extract. I think you might be able to make use of that but I'm not super confident that it's usable to extract from cookie. Right, so yeah, I know that you can specify an alternate header to- Not only alternate header in upstream we recently added that to how to extract from part of the header, so. Oh, so potentially including the cookies. Yeah. Okay. You said there was a PR submitted. Is that on the GitHub? Yeah, you can go find that. Okay. I'll go look into that. Okay. Thanks very much. Any other topics? There was a comment on here about windows. Hello, Bill Rowe here. So yeah, Cole and I are here just to kind of check in that I'm appreciating all of your help over on Envoy Dev, of course, trying to get the Windows port to build. I'm largely interested in your awareness of any other groups working toward or interested in consuming Envoy on Windows first off. And just to kind of give a little bit of an update we basically have all the sources building. There's a whole bunch of work around IO handle and the IO socket handle info that we have to finish cleaning up.  Stephen did a bunch of work way back in the last year. And so now we're finally getting caught up to current Origin Master trying to get back in sync so you guys can accept some patches. But biggest problems we're having are around the extensions API. So, and I don't know how to, I don't know the level of detail we want in terms of the PR on that, but basically we're finding that a lot of the extensions weren't actually built with the Envoy extensions, CC, library and other stubs that were made to tune whether or not those extensions are in fact in the list. I've seen some interesting proposals on Dev to kind of move that over to assemble our list of enabled extensions right off the bat, even as the build system, even as Bazel kicks in. So we would actually know from end to end which pieces of the, in the extensions tree are useful and which pieces are not. Sorry, I'm not, so we... Hey, sorry, I'm not following. What's the problem? Okay. Well, what I've found is that a number of the extensions are just using the normal Envoy Bazel declarations and not using the flavor that was built for selecting extensions. I don't think that's true. I mean, I'm positive that's not true. So if there's an example of that, I would like to know. Sure, sure, sure. I think, yeah, I think you're misunderstanding how we are actually building because the Bazel is smart enough to detect what the rule is not required by a specific target. So if you do like slash source slash dot, dot, dot, you will be basically including everything. But if you do like slash source slash access slash Envoy static, then those not enabled extensions are not being compiled anyway. Okay, that I understand, which is excellent. I guess my question kind of comes down to when we try to invoke the tests, that's where it gets extremely confused. If the test is not using Envoy extension, CC test, that will be accidentally included in the test suite, that's true. And speaking up for the Windows interest, we do have a custom ask for Windows support. So I'm happy to take a look on your Windows port and do some test based on that. I was gonna say, and on that topic, and just just in the interest of time, since we're almost out of time, I really would like Microsoft to do some work here. So let's take it offline. I'm gonna follow up with Microsoft again, and maybe if they can kick in some part time help here. So maybe if you think that you can help, Lee's in, maybe we could start a thread just between us and just talk about some strategy. Okay. All right, well thank you guys. Yeah, I appreciate it. So where is your like Windows port right now? Is that open somewhere on GitHub so I can take a rough look or not yet? Yes, but it's not merged to master quite yet. Yakkel, do you wanna address that? Yeah, okay, I can follow up with you offline on Slack. I'm gonna make a note to talk to Microsoft also. And then could we start a offline mail thread? Yeah, please go ahead. And I also have a few contacts through the Apache ESF that I can poke the bear and see if we can find some resource. So let me know where you're going with that. Yeah, I'm gonna go directly to the higher ups there. And let me just see what I can figure out. Okay, sounds good. Cool. Did anyone else have any quick, I think we're out of time, any real quick things? All right. Yeah, see you folks next time. Bye. Bye. Thanks.


All right, we're recording. Thank you. Welcome everyone. This meeting is being recorded. This meeting will be conducted by remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so. We assume or by telephone, no in person attendance of members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time via technological means. I will call the meeting to order and go ahead with a roll call just to double check that we can all we're all here and can be heard. So, Anna. Hello everyone. President, sorry. Dorothy. Hello, here I am. All present. And Athena, I'm here too. One, and I'm here as well. Okay, so we have a form. And let me see. Do not believe we have anyone. We do. Okay. Can you hear us? We hear you. Okay. Wonderful. So shall it has joined the meeting. And I believe we have one attendee with us. Myra Ross, thank you for being with us. If you would like to make a public comment, please raise your hand now so we can bring on a room. So I am going to, with that, I am going to hand the floor over to Anna so we can review the stream. And she has a hand up. Oh, okay. Hold on just for a moment. It says I'm one muted. Can you hear me? We hear you. Okay, great. I actually hadn't planned to make a statement, but since you invited it, I'm the chair of the disability access advisory committee. And I don't think we have anything in writing at this point for you about the street lights. But we did discuss it at our meeting in March. And we did not, we, we said that what they seem to be proposing at that time, although I haven't seen the latest iteration of their proposal. We didn't have any problem with because they weren't discussing the placement of the lights. They were discussing the characteristics of the lights. And we were fine with the yellow. We were fine with the down facing. We were fine with everything that they seem to want. But for us, the most important part about the placement of the lights would be that they having to do with safety of pedestrians, safety of bicyclists, essentially making sure, especially with the condition that our sidewalks and streets are in, that people's safety isn't compromised by darkness and that people aren't going to be spilling out of wheelchairs because they, they couldn't see that the sidewalk was really not in good shape. So that's essentially what we thought at the time, we don't have any information about any changes to the proposal if there were any. So that's it. I don't have anything in writing for you, but I wanted you to know where we are. Okay, thank you, Mara. Thank you for taking the time to be with us this evening. And if you would like to stay with us in the audience, we are about to get into that discussion now. Okay. Thank you. Okay, I'll know the floor is yours. Thank you. So we have been discussing this for a very, very long time and I'm hopeful that now we have come to a resolution and a path forward here. As a reminder, what's in your packet today? There's two marked up versions. The, what we are talking about and voting on and I hope that we're able to vote today is not changing anything that the policy is saying about, about location of street lights, except for the only addition, which is that we generally, we added regional transit bus stops that was not in the policy before. So if you look at Amherst Streetlight Policy 2023, there's two versions and you can see the marked up, the really marked up and the clean versions for your, for your reference. That's what we would be voting on tonight. I also included in your packet a memo to try to, to provide illustrative examples of what it is that we're talking about. I know that there's terms in this that aren't necessarily part of the everyday lexicon. And so for, for the average person, and so I wanted to provide some visuals and some examples. So I'm happy to take questions of folks on that memo, if folks needed, needed clarification or explanation, anything that's in there. But otherwise I want to make sure that we are very clear as a committee. This is not about, this is not about the placement of the street lights. This is about the technical specifications. And please only what, what we are voting on is only the policy that's in the packet today. And so I asked us to, to remember that. I think that this conversation has gotten really twisty because we initially did propose something different. So I really want us to, to have that document up and be looking at it so that we know what we're, what we're discussing. And I'm happy to share my screen if folks want it literally up, but I wanted to open for questions first on the memo or the policy itself. Okay. That was clear. Crystal clear. Thank you for that. Shalini. Yeah. So one is the concern that Tracy has raised about the 11pm. That the street lighting shall be dimmed to no more than 70% by 11pm or within one hour of the end of closing time. Of the last bar. So that from the safety point of view, and then also from like, have you all shared this policy with businesses downtown? Like in terms of process, how are you getting feedback from the community? So we're gathered feedback from the community the same way that we gathered feedback on every other proposal. And so this has been out and on the agenda and requesting public comment. And so we have not walked around specifically to ask businesses. And the, in terms of the dimming, I think that it's, it's important to look at the light levels. 70% is still relatively high. And so if you look at the light levels, I didn't include examples of dimming, but those are easy to, to search. They came up when I was pulling this together. And so I think I can, I can look quickly. If folks would like me to try to find an example, 70% is still in illuminated, an illuminated surface. It's just not as bright of an illumination. And those, the areas that are most heavily trafficked, it would still be lit until that, that later timeframe. And as well, bus stops are would, would be, would be lit as well. I think since it's impacting be like for me, it's hard to say 70% is good enough. And for you to say, unless we've heard from people, how it's going to impact them. And that's why I think they should be a public forum or some sort where we are more formally inviting the businesses and, you know, disability committee seems like they don't have the latest draft or tack or all of the, I mean, I know you already heard from tack, I believe, but it sounds like disability committee has, doesn't have the latest. And then plus like having a public forum before we as a committee board, I would like to hear from businesses specifically. I'd like to hear from the police chief and fire and, you know, all the safety personnel. We have reached out to the safety personnel that they were part of this process as we went along. Okay. So they're fine with this. They did not have any, this is not a large variance from our current policy. And other than the specifications, the police did not have any concerns. We did not. I don't believe we reached out to fire specifically. I have to ask me if she did. Okay. Yeah. But that would be my proposal is to at least have a public forum where we invite specifically invite. People who represent businesses then. And maybe the fire get feedback from the fire stuff. I'm personally, I don't, I don't know where I'm struggling with that. Shalini is that, you know, everything we do is impactful. And so we also want to be able to get things done. And so I want to make sure that we are, we're considering the implications of that. And if that's what you're also proposing it. In my mind means that we would be doing a public forum on every single thing that we address, because all of this is about. Changes that impact them. I mean, our whole job is changes that impact the public. Right. And so I think that if, if the committee votes to do a public to hold a public forum on this, then that's, that's the committee's prerogative. And I think that in my opinion, that would mean that we are setting a precedent that we will do a public forum on every other proposal that comes forward. So I just, I think that's in my mind. That's where that leads, which if that's what the committee wants, that's fine. I think we as a committee have to come back to the community engagement project proposal that I had. And now that we have done this whole CRC thing, we do have a plan for that I want to bring forward, but I think we as a committee have to decide which, like you said, we can't do it for everything, but perhaps things that do impact. And why I think this is an important enough thing that we should engage the community is because, you know, we are struggling to revive our downtown and there is a fear. It may be a perception and not an absolute thing, but there is a fear about parking in certain places. And if you're thinking of dimming it even by 270%, you know, it creates a perception that it's not safe, or is it going to harm the people who are now trying to come to Drake or we're trying to get businesses downtown and shut dimming the light, it kind of feels like the vibe is like, oh, okay, good night, everyone. We're going to bed now. So I mean, I want to understand not your perspective, I've already your perspective, but I would like to hear the perspective of specifically businesses. Great. And I do want to clarify that the, the dimming is after all of that. We were very intentional when, when we were writing this, that I want to make sure I read the exact sentence that the downtown, I'm finding the exact key. And then 70% by 11 or within one hour of the end, within one hour of the end of closing time of the last bar or live music. Yep. So, so that the idea there is that the, people are able to get home from their show or the bar or whatever it might be. And so that they're the, the located in the downtown so that it's not being dimmed as they're walking back to their car after or whatever it might be. That was a very intentional ad to make sure that we're not impacting those, those types of things and that people have that illumination as they're walking back to their car, to the bus stop or wherever they might be going. Okay. So I think I'm reading the within one hour as before one hour, but you're saying after it's closing at 12, you're saying it'll be dimmed at 1pm or you're saying it'll be dimmed at 11pm. I'm saying at one, it would be, sorry, Sandy, it would be an hour if the bar closes at, when the bar is closed or two. Yeah. So then it would be by three o'clock. Okay. So I was reading within like this. No, it's after, after the purpose is to keep it illuminated. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's right. Okay. Um, Dorothy or shall I need to do that answer? Okay. Dorothy. Well, I have some, some remarks here. I just, um, number one, just to remind everybody of the absolute basics that when we go out to talk to people and it's, it's a lot of, it's a lot of, it's a lot of, it's a lot of things. And, and Paul has responded to some of this. Okay. Streets, sidewalks, and safe lighting. And, and beyond that, a lot of people don't ask for too much more. Okay. Um, and I. When it comes to lighting at night, I'm not interested in theoretical. I'm interested in what is so. Like shall I mean, I wasn't quite sure what so many percent meant what it looked like. So I would like to have a practical test and take a piece of that. Um, I think one of the worst ones up on the upper amity, um, it picks up a little bit, but one reason why I said, I can't draw, walk home from the Amherst cinema at night, even though I live just blocks away is because the sidewalk is dangerous. I think that, um, Myra Ross made an excellent point about, um, having to see the sidewalks and some of our sidewalks, we know we have a huge list where it's going to take years to walk.  So it's really important to be able to see where you're walking. And I don't know what 70% is. So I would like to see what that looks like.  And I say, I'm not interested in should I'm interested in is. Okay. So, and for me, that means I have to see it. Um, you know, I don't know the buses and bars, but, um, I don't know the bus schedules, but I know that we have workers who actually use the buses to go to work.  So I would think that in, you know, in congruence with these bus schedules. That bus stops should have adequate lighting for, for when people can still be coming home at night, because that's pretty scary. I mean, I have to admit, I don't know if it's necessary to do that, but I have done that. I have done that. And it's spooky. Um, and we want to make sure that that's safe. So those are, those are my comments on this. I, I mean, I can, I see, uh, On his point, no point in having unnecessary light when it's not needed. But, um, so I'm just concerned about being sure that we know when it's needed and that we have adequate light that's safe for that. Thank you. Um, I don't know the answer about a test. I think that's something that we'd have to ask go for it about if that's what that would look like, or if that's usable. Um, and I can, uh, I can write that down to ask him. Uh, if that's something that they can do. I don't know if we can. I don't know that we actually have the technology in our street lights currently to dim them. I believe that we do not. Um, that was one of the things that was one of the specifications that we were trying to put in. Um, is that as we switch out street lights that we're replacing them in a way that we can dim them in the future. Um, but my understanding is that we do not currently have dimmable street lights to test this way. Paul, I don't know if you, if that's your understanding as well. I think that's what I'm remembering. I think that's true. We do not. Yeah. Thank you. Um, and the other thing is that I, um, I'm not familiar enough with the full bus schedule to know when the last from the last trip is. I don't know if anyone else knows that. I think that's what I'm talking about. Um, I think that's what I'm talking about. Okay. I know the one by my house, but that's all I got for you. Yeah. I'm almost a hundred percent confident that the. The bus. The bus to stop running before the bars are out. Before the bars get out. We would probably see a bunch of people congregating as well to get on the bus. And I think this is why you see a lot of people. Yeah, we do not have, I mean, like the transportation here doesn't, I mean, we don't have a very late transportation system here. So late night service. Oh, sorry. No, go ahead. I found it the late night service, which is Thursday and Friday only the latest one is 1251 p.m. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. You're right. Yeah. So, yeah. So. So that's before that. Before the birthplace would stop before they're open now. Here was my question because seeing as like specifically for, you know, downtown and areas that there are. That there's heavy traffic. So if the lights on, excuse me, if this is was clear in your proposal, because it was there, you know, I thought that it was very clear, but the, if the lights are dimmable, if they're able to be dimmed, does that mean that they could also just, you know, stay at that same. Stay at the same like at lit at 100% without going to 70%. I mean, would, is this would be on a timer? Yeah, it would be on a timer or if we got really fancy, it's through something that they would, they're able to control it DPW, but one way or another, it's not. It's adjustable. Okay. So then you'd have to, yeah, sorry. So the idea of going to, you know, more efficient lighting can still go and then so would. So I guess my roundabout, what long would a question is with this. So this dimming to 70% is that would this have to be. Set in stone because I mean, we do have, you know, to the, their point there is, you know, there would be a lot going on in the downtown at certain times that that could be complicated and especially just in heavy traffic areas. I mean, we have the same lighting depending on whatever, whatever condition the sidewalks are in, you know, and I have seen like I'm a little more familiar myself with just the dimming and dimming of lighting. And I don't know the exact percent that I'm familiar with, but just that dimming and I know that there's a difference but you can see, and that's also dependent on, you know, how, how many lights there are and how spaced out there are and all that. But it, but is there wiggle room with that at all? So I mean, I think there's, yes, there's wiggle room, but I think what would be important is to recognize that if, if the dimming, if the other option for dimming were to not dim at all, then it's not necessarily worth us investing in the, the special lights that can dim, right? So I think that's, that'll be the question. I also, I mean, Mandy said this last time we met, but reminding folks that the timeline for swapping out these lights is further along them, is further out than we, than we initially thought. So we're talking a couple of years, at least down the road, if not five. And so I guess, yes, there's adjust, my understanding is that you can adjust all of those and the council as keepers of the public way can adjust the policy at any point. I think that the question that I think would be more intelligent of us is to sort of decide soon whether or not that's something we want so that we're not investing in infrastructure that we aren't going to utilize. If that makes sense. No, it does, it does. Okay, so I want to make sure I've captured the, the comments. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let me put it down. No, I think Shalini was raising her. Yeah, I had one more question. I think I was just trying to get to the last part where it asked Paul she within six months come up with a plan. And I just wanted, and I know it's a 10 year. Implementation plans or that seems fair, but I just wanted to hear from Paul, given that everything that's going on, is that something reasonable for you and have you. Yeah, so it's six months plus an additional six months if needed. So I think certainly within that timeframe. It's doable. I think the challenge for the plan is going to be it's always going to be subject to funding, right? So there can be a plan if there's not money available, then it's only as good as the funding. And. You know, I think that that's something that we would want to look at it when we build our budgets, whether we're going to budget for the implementation plan or not. The only other thing I want to make is I think the comment is in that the town shall buy the most efficient light. And like there's a, that's a, you know, that can be a big, I worry about what that really requires because there could be something that's cost, you know, $1,000 versus something that's $100 that's, but I think that. You know, we all know what that, what that most efficient light means. So I'm just going to say we did try to define what most efficient means, including cost installation and labor. So those are, those would be factored into the, to the efficiency as an equation. It's not, not just the most kind of climate efficient. Yeah. Dorothy. I would be a lot happier if we didn't have something that was this fancy and regarding on technology, which might cost a lot of extra money. And Spets and just kept the focus on the shading and the downlight that, that you, that was definitely part of this. I can't imagine that getting a light that, that a streetlight that is dimmable isn't going to add a lot of cost and also have a chance of getting out of whack. Things happen to streetlights and that means that we end up being very expensive and we'd say, what did we ever get into? And then you have a streetlight to get stuck at what it is and it won't come back on again. It just, to me, adding a whole layer of, of difficulty and cost when your two points, which I had no problem with, was to do with choosing a color that worked better for birds and wildlife. And yet was, you know, going to do the job and to making sure that the, the screen, the aperture brought the light down and didn't get to unnecessary uplighting. And I, I think that the dimming of the thing is just adding a lot of money and costs in the area of, of great aggravation for the DPW. So I don't want to put words in DPW's mouth. I would, I would caution us against doing that. And I also think that we want to make sure that we're, we're not ignoring the flip side and the reason why we would be dimming, which is, is efficiency in terms of, of cost over time and sustainability and health. So I think that, you know, there are, there are complications with making any change. And it's important to remember that there's also reasons why we do want to make that change, right? So if, if for you, that coin comes down on the side of it's too complicated or whatever that might be, then that's your prerogative. But I don't want us to lose the fact that what dimming does do is makes the environment healthier. It's more sustainable in terms of our climate. And ultimately it's less energy usage. And so it's, it's over time. The idea is that it would be less costly. So I think that that's that part of it. In terms of the, the technological nature of, of policies like this, you know, I mean, Mandy and I talked about this. And I think one of the things that's, that's tough is we, our, our responsibility is to. Educate and understand so that we're able to write and pass policies on this kind of thing. And, you know, we talked about this in, in council a week. Well, gosh, I can't remember what meeting it was. But, you know, the, the idea that sometimes, sometimes bills come from counselors, sometimes they come from staff and to limit it one way or another, just because of technological expertise, I think is, is limiting both groups. So that's, that's my, my kind of philosophy on that. And if, if we differ on that, then that's, again, that's okay, we each have our vote. But we, we would be voting on this with no idea of cost. And I find that troublesome. You know, so, so we have some idea. We're not going to put cost into the policy. We, we recognize that there is, there are cost implications, but we also were trying to write in that. These are being swapped out as we go. And that cost change. And so to put in, to put in cost estimations at this point into a policy would, would be unwise. We also really did try to make sure that this is budget conscious and putting in, putting in the, the different caveats about why things might need to be shifted. Right. So how we define efficiency includes considerations for cost, how we, how we look at what fixtures to put in does include, does include considerations for cost. So, you know, I mean, I think the other element of this is that we can also change these policies as we go. And if for some reason things become exorbitantly more extensive, then we, we could, the council could vote to change this back again, or to something else entirely. But the goal here is that we are, we're swapping this out, swapping them out as they die to make it more efficient so that we are spending less money and making it safer. I do, I'm trying to find at one point, there were cost estimates and I'm trying to dig through my email quickly, but I can't pull them up right now. I can't seem to find them at this exact moment. Can I, can I respond to your last. Oh, of course. The phrase we can change it back is, is sounds good, but you know, when I think of the time that we spend on doing any little thing and how long our meetings are and our committee meetings are, that's not a comforting phrase to me. I think that getting good people to run and serve on the town council is going to be dependent on making the workload better so that people who have other jobs and other responsibilities can do it and bring themselves to this thing. So, I mean, when I think about all the meetings that I attend virtually or whatever and listen to and stuff, it's not easy changing anything. So the fact that it could be changed, it would mean going through all this again. I must say it's an exhausting thought. So that's not a comforting thought to me that it could be changed because everything can be changed if you have the stamina to put up with it. You know, Oh, trust me, I'm, I'm very familiar with the stamina that it takes to change policy at this point. I think what I mean, Dorothy, and I recognize it's probably not, and I don't necessarily intend to be a comforting thought, but I think my purpose is that we, that would be our prerogative, right? I more meant that we have the ability should someone be so upset by it that they don't like it and want to change it, right? Like that it's more of that's within our purview. Not, I didn't mean it flippantly as like we could just do it, right? I meant more like that is within our right to do. And I apologize if it came across. It didn't. It was not, it was not anything to do with your tone on it. It's just my sense of the reality of what it takes to change anything. Yeah, I mean, ideally we've been, you know, pouring over this to try to get it right and not have to, not have to go and edit anything after. That's, that's the idea. Got it. Shalini. Yeah, I think two things that I would feel more comfortable before voting and, and that's just how I think. And that's why, you know, just to, that's, that's my consistency and how I'm thinking through all the policies that are coming through like the waste hauler, by-law, why we haven't voted. It's a very straightforward by-law, but we're waiting for the cost to, and of course they're slightly different. That's probably going to be, we don't know. It's probably going to bring down the cost. We don't know, but we're waiting to get the estimates before we, you know, we're inviting the TSA to have a conversation. So my mind is going similar to what Dorothy is saying. It's a little, it's a, I don't see how we can, without having, I know it's going to change, you said in the future, but can we look at what it would cost now is this to get a sense of what are we committing to? That's number one. And secondly, I think that the second one is maybe easier, but it's just to maybe show and explain this, the, what the impact of this is going to be to, and get the feedback from the business community. And, and secondly, from the disability and advisory committee. So the draft that the DAAC had, I believe is the most updated draft based on, on what Myra shared earlier. I can confirm that, but I believe that they've been working on the same draft that TAC had. So TAC, and TAC has always had the updated one. Shalani, can I ask what your recommendation in terms of when you say the business community, how do you define that? So I can only think of, like when we did the rental, the stakeholders were landlords. So we went to through the town, you know, the town to reach out to the landlords and did the bulletin boards and did all of that, just like inviting people generally to the public comment. I don't think cuts it. So in this, in this case, in the least, I think getting the bid to maybe send it out and talk to them at least, like what is this something you feel that and the chamber at least goes through. And then I don't know if there are other, I can't think of other, there are other business groups that could give feedback that if this is something that they feel is important enough for them to send it out to the businesses or, or do they, or maybe at least if they can give some, at least just having a conversation with them. I know I'm, I'm just really, I'm struggling to know who them is and I want to be inclusive. And I'm sampling and chamber. Okay. So the bid and chamber leadership, are you saying that we, you want us to talk to all of the bid and chamber members? The leadership. And like I was saying, you can talk to the leadership if they think this needs to go further than the leadership to other members to just having a conversation with them to get some feedback. And I don't know if the other groups, those are the two that are coming to my mind. So I apologize if I'm leaving, leaving out any other business groups that could provide feedback on that. Okay. I've written it down. Thank you. Any other questions or comments? Yeah, Dorothy. I would imagine that each business owner would go outside and take a look and see where the streetlight is compared to their business thinking of front doors and back doors. Because of, you know, it's, it's, it's people pedestrians on the street. And it's also just general safety. And if they found that the lights were in good positions, that probably they'd say, oh, it's fine with me. But I mean, it gives them a chance to check and to see how this might impact them. Right. And, and just in it, we're not changing anything about the positions. Yeah. Right. I know that, but. I just say go, go, go carefully and go slowly and to know what you're doing in terms of how this is, how this impacts other people. And, and Shawnee is, is trying to say, let's get a little bit more input from at least one group of people. Okay. And I, sorry. I get her point. I think it's a valid.  I appreciate it. Any other questions? Thank you. All right. Thank you. Okay, sorry. Just one moment. Okay. Our next topic item here is proposed town staff. Updates. This was expanded on thankfully by Anna and Paul. We kicked this off a couple of weeks ago with a Sarah bar coming to give us a community update. And the idea here is inviting town staff and department heads. Paul and I touched base. Briefly and thinking about, you know, trees, of course, roads, as we know, would be an issue and sustainability. So the, the idea here is to have a discussion based on. Who we as a committee or what departments might want to see to come in. And have a discussion with whether that's presentations a little more of an intimate setting than if this was out in an entire council meeting and could possibly roll out that we would. Decide here discuss who we would like to see and then filter that through Paul. Who would be able to see who and what and when. We would like to see how it fits best in the schedule and when that works and maybe do an alternate schedule, like looking through our, our schedule, our meeting schedule, rather that we would have, you know, someone come in and talk with us. Maybe that's once a month or, you know, how it fits best in the schedule. So I want to, before we open the discussion, see if there's any other input from either on it or, or Paul. If there's any other input that anyone has on it. Yeah, thanks. I appreciate you putting this on the agenda. I think when, when I had initially talked with Anika about this, we were talking about. Doing at least annual updates again on the paving plan for roads and sidewalks as Jason had come in last year and done. That was very helpful for us, but also I know I'll speak for myself. I've utilized that recording with my constituents and the data from it. And so I think that including that on a regular basis would be great. And then I also had thought, you know, possibly again, Paul, I'm just starting these out there. So with respect to your staff's time. Bringing in Alan snow to talk through our plan for tree management, especially as we are seeing emerald ash for show up. More and more. And so tree planting and management. So I think that's some updates possibly from. Probably Dave or Aaron Jock Aaron Jock about. Conservation land management. Those were the ones that came up for me in terms of specific town stuff that I think would be helpful for us to hear from. Mostly to respond to a resident. Resident concerns. Yeah, thanks. Absolutely. Thank you. Just to echo on the, the roads and sidewalks presentation has been really helpful. We've used that in a couple of the. The district meetings and those that were there have, you know, really appreciated that. And we're able to have a, you know, have a copy for themselves to share with neighbors. So that was, that was great. Paul. Yeah. So I think this is a terrific idea. I think we did learn a lot by the roads presentation last year, which, and just to be on it, you know, the staff would really appreciate the opportunity to make these presentations. I think your meetings are more conducive to a conversation than a council meeting. Although I think a lot of counselors will be interested and should be invited to these meetings or they can watch it afterwards. And I think the idea that we do these and we then they package them up as little videos that anybody can watch at any time. Like we did with the roads is really good. The things that we had talked about, I think roads, trees, I think is an important one because that's going to become a big policy, not a policy issue, but it's going to be a big issue for the town in the next few months. So we need to get that out there. Conservation land management is something I'm sure Dave would love to talk. You just need to have several hour meeting, I think, to accommodate that. And the other one was sustainability efforts. I think people would appreciate. I think that's a good point. I think we can start with some of the updates on that. Those are things that come up a lot. And there's not. The ECAC does talk about that a lot, but if you want to give a broader venue to that. That would be up, that would be up to you. I mean, it's just lots of different folks who, you know, if you wanted them, but I think we could start with three or four and see, you know, that would get us to the fall and see how, how that helps works out for you. I think we can add to that. And this could be down the road, because I can see the more urgent one beings the road sidewalks. Sustainability. But also if we could get the staff to talk about. Recycling and composting and all because my husband and I always arguing this goes into the recycle. This doesn't go, or this is not clean enough. And he'll just put stuff. And I'm like, no, this is going to contaminate the other stuff. And I think a lot of people don't actually know. I, you know, I think that's a really good one. I think that's one that we would want to seize on Susan wait. She knows that stuff better than anybody on our staff. So when she's presenting, let's, we can carve out some of her time to do that. That's a great idea. Because there are a lot of questions about that stuff. Yeah. And just saying started composting. Yes. Maybe that one could also coincide with the next. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when the hauler is on the. Yeah. So we're shaking up our meetings. Dorothy. Well, I just discovered on the town website today. Town council, what greatest hits or something. And how easily the meetings were. And I thought, oh, that looks great. So well, you're talking about a video. I would love a video. Welcome to the dump or welcome to the town council. And I'm really excited to see where the different people could show you. This is what we do here. This is what we do here.  And I was total novice. And I'm sure I rode the wrong way on many places and didn't put something in the wrong place. Because. We're still going to have the transfer station. We're still going to have the transfer station. We're still going to have the transfer station. Things are kind of spread out. So not always so easy to ask. You don't want to bother people. I think that could be, they could have fun making it actually. So that's my suggestion. Sounds good. Any other, any other thoughts? Oh, I did have a question. The area that we never talk about is because we don't really have much of a department, but that is social services. But I know that we have. I think it would be really interesting for us to. Kind of get. Maybe have about five or six of the people who do the different parts. At a meeting and each could talk about what they do when they don't do and when they call, move it to another lane or go to the, go to a state thing or. Because like, if you have, if you wanted to get help for somebody in your family or somebody on your block. At the moment, I don't know what to tell people too much. But I know we have some kind of. We have some, some services, some services, or at least referral of that type, but it's kind of not very clear. Well, our services are for seniors. That's the only thing we really, and we have a lot of services. We help direct people and refer people who are homeless. Everything else is pretty much a lot of those other services that are private entities that provided that we that they collaborate on obviously the police collaborate with them as well as fire and crest. The family outreach, for instance, is a big collaborator. That's what I was about to say, like a survival center family outreach. But when I went to some of the senior meetings, there's a certain, I can't remember the name of it, but there's a charitable group or social service group that does. The meals on wheels or there's, there's connections made. Right. The senior center does the meals on wheels. Right. But there was, I, well, I mean, for example, the young man that got killed on the subway today who was acting totally erratically in public. If you have somebody that you that is behaving bizarrely and in a way that might be dangerous or threatening. We just call the police or call Cress or yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean, if you think sometimes I was talking with somebody about this the other day and like, think about some of the resources there was a couple that they weren't aware of either survival center or family outreach environments and like the differences.  Whereas family outreach environments is for, you know, more of like kind of connecting with that primary care. So that's more about long-term. But I think what we're saying, I think what we're saying is that there's, it's sort of a disconnect. It's a connected but hard to navigate social service network. And I think we could, that would take some time to pull together, but I think it's something we could try to do. Yeah, I think that's a great question. And I think it's, I think it's a great question. You know, you know, when you're first entering into the world, if you have a parent, if you don't live in town and you have a parent or someone, how do I gain access to services? So let me think about that one. Yeah. And those are two. Great ones. The other one, I should just. Uptemide it ahead. Not you said the senior center and maybe. They're, they're lunch services. They're maybe. Hailey and Donna, Donna Hancock, who was pretty much instrumental in that. The pandemic. Yeah. So I just think, you know, it, and I think it's fine for the DSO committee to think about this, but you know, it's typically committees are sort of like, we have an action to take. So we should be making work on an action. So this is sort of changing how you approach things. You know, how the information be educated. And you know, and I think that it was successful with the roads because we've utilized that information. And it's, there's not another place. We could just sort of do it ourselves, but the sort of dialogue that came between the counselors and the town engineer was very valuable. And that's that elicited a lot more information than he just made it as a presentation. So it's a slightly different approach to your committee work, as opposed to having, we've been delegated something. So I think that's a good approach to the council. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I want to be mindful of that. And so I think establishing a cadence and a process for it so that we're not pushing off our actions that we need to take because there's, there's a lot that's on our plate right now. So that we kind of have a regular cadence, but that we're not spending. We're not pushing aside our kind of duty and responsibility. And that's why I think we have to be very, very careful with what we're doing at the same time. At the same time. Right. Like we have. Reporting deadlines back to council on things. And so. I think that's, that'll be a consideration is how we. Spread these out. And that's why I was thinking like once a year for paving and one, you know. Yeah. So that we're not. Neglecting what we have to get back to the, to the whole team. Yeah. I mean, I think that. Yeah. I totally agree that we'll go without saying that we'd have to get back to the system. But I think that's kind of chosen. We have. On our list first. But just, you know, seeing as we do touch on, on town services, I think that there is some information about certain departments and some people don't know. I mean, maybe we'll widen our audience and we'll have three people. But you never know. Dorothy. I just wanted to mention that years ago in sunny side Queens, we some volunteers put together a little booklet called the problem solver in which we put we laid out as much information as we could about services and how you contact them. And right now, I think that it would be pretty hard to find your way through the town website. I, so I am suggesting that someone I'm not saying us. Okay. You can make a paper, as well as a virtual thing, which is just imagine I'm new in town. In fact, you know the old days they used to have welcome wagon be the kind of thing that you would give somebody when they moved into town and say, you know, here welcome and hear some of the things about the town expecting people to find their way through the on the internet. It's not not that successful in lots of ways, but so I'm suggesting that I think that that needs to be done, because it takes a long time to find out where things are and what they mean. And I know that some of the TV group, zoom groups with senior citizens are kind of trying to work on that a little bit. But again, when you're dealing with older people. And maybe some people from other cultures. The first thing they do is not necessarily go and find their way around the town website. They might need something simpler. And that's something could be translated as well could be translating to Spanish, and maybe a few of the other languages which are in town. And I'm not saying we do that but I'm saying that this could be a project that we could be help support in some way. So, Paul, do you have that this short list. I do. I'll talk to staff. I think I've heard I've heard your priorities and we'll sort of see, you know, where people are and I'll talk with Jason about the roads. It might be, once we know exactly what our bids are, we might want to wait till we get our bids and which is the second. We're about to submit the second issue of bids so we'll know how much more we can do. Can I ask if the prices have continued to go up. Do you know are they stayed steady from last year. Actually, the bid that we just did which was Pomeroy and West Pomeroy word was lower than we anticipated so. Thank you. Thank you. Hopefully that trend continues. Yeah. That's pretty exciting. All right, so we are going to move into the town manager appointments. Paul, you continue to shake it up. This is great. Hand that over to you. Would you like to walk us through. Sure. So this is our first time that we were pointing to the Amherst housing authority board of commissioners. This is a board that is created by state law, three of the members are elected, and they're elected at the same time you are elected. And so there's some transition language in the charter that helped with that, but that's that's up and running now. There are two other positions. So there is a tenant member as this is all required by state law and then there's a state appointee. So the state the state appointee is appointed by the governor when the governor doesn't fill that position. And it's after a certain number of days. The authority reaches out to the Department of Housing and Community Devile and saying we really want you to appoint someone when they don't respond to that or if they say no, it reverts to the town to go through its normal appointing process. So we, and that's where we are in this situation. So we posted the vacancy. There are people who apply to like to serve. And so I am appointing James Linfield of 71 Country Corners Road as the person to serve as a state state appointee. These terms are for five years. Mr. Linfield is in this would be the gubernatorial appointment. He has worked in housing development. He is, he's worked at wayfinders. He's done real estate development. He's done property management. He comes with a whole menu of really strong skills. He couldn't, he was interested in other committees, for instance, like the housing trust, but he really can't because he could have a conflict because the wayfinders is always doing things there. So this is the place where he felt like, and he really wants to be giving back to his community. So this is, it was a golden opportunity to get him engaged. And the housing authority does a lot of rehab of existing buildings and they, and so it seems to be a really nice skill set match for what the housing authority needed and what he was bringing to the table. The other position is a tenant member. So if, if you there's two processes, one if you have a local tenant organization, there's one process we do not have that. So if you don't have a local tenant organization, you, the authority reaches out to all the residents of their of their facilities and say would you like to serve and then if someone's interested they submit their name. And we followed the same process for appointment. And so we had, we interviewed folks who were interested in that and then, and I'm appointing Mark Barrett, who is a tenant resident now before moving to Amherst, he, he lived in the housing authority property in Belcher town, and he was a commissioner in Belcher town. So he actually had experience being a commissioner. And, you know, but he like I am not an expert on these things, but I've served so I know what it means to serve. He has been volunteering his time at the senior center. And he has also been volunteering at in. In Belcher town he offered his services to help start a rainbow coffee hour and to work with LGBT, LGBTQIA plus organizations to get folks or organized at the senior center so he seemed to be a real good addition to as well because there was no, I think the, there was no expect, there was no ramp up time for him to be able to start to serve and be educated. So the people who were on the interview team were me, the chair of the housing authority who is Michael Burkhart and he couldn't make one of the interviews so another member from the housing authority Nancy Schroeder sat in on that. The, the executive director of the housing authority panel Rogers and make gauge from the residents advisory committee. So these are the two appointments. Paul, can I ask a clarifying, I drafted a motion, I can do them in the same motion right because it's the same appointment with the same expiration. Okay. This is really do. This is exciting. I had a question about the terms that you answered it and then is it common practice for the governor to not to let this to just let that go to the. Yeah, this has been vacant for a long, long time. I mean, Connie Krueger was the last person to hold that seat was just before she was on the select board. Wow. Yeah, right. You know why that is sorry for question or is it just, I don't know it's, you know, the governor has probably so many appointments this is a very small housing authority, it's probably safer for them not to appoint someone and appoint someone they don't really. There's a lot of interest in folks serving on housing authorities, there's not a lot of cash a and survey it's it's, they're reviewing bills, you know, talking about citing on buildings and stuff like that. I don't think there's a lot of interest in it. I'm ready to make a motion unless anyone else has questions I don't want to cut people up. Take it away. All right. I'm going to make a motion and then they screen one way. Okay. I move for the town services and outreach committee to recommend to the town council, the town manager appointments of Mark Barrett and James Linfield to the housing authority board of commissioners for terms to expire June 30 2028. Thank you. Were you seconding or are you asking for a second. I was doing both. I did both. Great. I took it from Dorothy. Okay, I love it. Dorothy. You're muted. Yeah, yes. Okay, Shawnee. Yes, Anna. Hi. And I'm an as well so that is for with one. absent. Thank you. Thank you. All right, I see Mandy is with us. Welcome Mandy. Hi, having me. Thank you. Thank you for being with us. We're going to hand the floor to Mandy, that we are really just in time coming in under the water for the surveillance policy so thank you so much for taking the time to be with us again tonight. And walk us through. I think Paul has asked me to walk her too. So I'm going to try and you guys did you guys get only a draft with everything accepted. No, we had the new one added. I posted both I posted the markup and the clean version of one. Okay. I have to pull up the markup one but so basically, I want to thank Paul. I met with chief living stone and lieutenant daily and lieutenant daily is the officer, the lieutenant who deals with all of the policy directives is my understanding. And it was a very good meeting. And I guess the impetus for the meeting was where I was here last time and I was concerned, particularly about some conflicts between the directive 18 that was referenced in the policy provided and incorporated by reference in that policy and the policy itself. So the new draft, or the new proposal that Paul has, the manager has proposed resolves all of those issues, you will see there's a lot more revisions than just that one issue. While we were in the meeting. And the chief really and the chief re looked over everything and noticed that there might have been some other conflicts between the directive and the policy so that's, that's why there's more so the first, the first big change is to the purpose. And that is basically pulling in the directive that the policy number 18 purpose statement into the surveillance use policy purpose statement. They didn't match, which was my biggest concern because they didn't match before. The, the next big changes to the data retention section, and the concern, I had originally no concerns of it but the concern came from Lieutenant daily and the chief when they read the policy that's on page six, I guess it's still on page six of the town proposed policy it did not match the directive 18 policy 18 from the APD. And so the recommendation was made to make them match and then also indicate that the data that is not saved for evidentiary purposes is overwritten within seven days and that is sort of what the original draft proposal from from the manager said, and so we kept sort of that language and clarified what that meant and then pulled in the rest of the policy directive language or much of it I think I think the manager just referenced the data retention schedule because it's actually kind of long in policy directly. So trying to keep things short public third party data sharing was changed to delete that last sentence about public records requests because it's really covered in section G. So it was more of just clear clarifying things. And then when I was there and since we were going through the whole thing I asked them, is it only the state DA's office that they might share with for evidentiary purposes and prosecutorial purposes and they said no we can't do the Attorney Generals. So might as well add the Attorney General in. And then the other biggest change was auditing an oversight and that was just more of a naming thing. More than anything on that. The one thing I thought would be helpful for TSO to learn know that I learned in my meeting was much of the policy directive. I mean the one that has been adopted by the APD that we're trying that the manager has recommended we incorporate by reference here is pulled directly from the post standards. And those standards are required to be adopted and used as the language is provided to maintain accreditation from the police department is what I was told. So a lot of what so that purpose statement if we were to modify or conflict with what's in policy directive 18. The chief and the lieutenant indicated we would potentially risk accreditation because we would no longer be in compliance with the post standards from the, the, I don't know what year that law was but that created the post commission and all of that. That was one thing I learned that many of these directives are taken directly from those best practices post standards that have been put out there. And so we kind of don't want to mess with them, which is why we've changed everything in the managers suggested one and nothing in the police policy directive. I think that summarizes basically everything. Thank you. Mindy when you were talking about the third party data sharing. And I think I'm following what you're saying. Those are the only two groups there would never be an instance where that data would need to be shared with say the post commission is there. You muted. I forgot I muted myself. They did not mention that. I guess to be safe, you might one thing they did mention and all was sometimes when there are complaints. I don't know where that we were looking at section K complaints. I think that's where you would submit complaints to this. They are required to submit those complaints to post from the police department and so I hadn't thought about that as third party data sharing I don't know whether what the procedures are with those complaints whether they would submit any video or anything to that with the complaint if there was a complaint. I mean that's kind of the that was the scenario I was thinking right like if that was, and I don't know if the post commission is the only group in that instance either inside when I like, I don't want to, I don't want to both limit our ability to have folks have complaints properly investigated and I also don't want to like cut off. I don't want to accidentally over allow at the same time, like the purpose of this is to protect people's data and privacy. And yet we want to make sure that we're able to utilize the post commission as needed. Okay, let me, I'll, I'll, I'll noodle that and see if there's a work around there, because it's also possible to post commission would go through the regional DA in some way. Okay, I'm thinking about that I'm not I was not necessarily expecting to have an answer I don't know Paul if you have any knowledge or insight the post commission so new that I don't like 2020 but yeah. Well, these are public records, and you know, they're, they're saved for seven days. And so someone wants to request the information within seven days but I think this is the idea. I think that this one of these things generate is that how long are you going to save the information of my traffic stop. And we don't we want to have a, if you have to save it for a good reason then that's what what's your policy for saving it. But I think the initiative on this came about is that there's not this store of evidence that the town holds about everybody's traffic stop for forever. So, Dorothy. Yeah, when I read through this. I just realized that it's it's very complicated so I'm pretty much willing to just go with the post standards because I on the one hand I could see wanting to have saved the tape if I thought, and I might not know that I needed it seven days. If I thought it might help my case, but on the other hand, data is so manipulable that, you know, that doesn't necessarily mean that you could use it so it's, I think you're damned if you do and damned if you don't it's really, really tricky. And so I'm willing to just go with the post. I think I have some ideas on this one. And it's very complex. New one else have a question or comment for Mandy or Paul. So I have a question on so to for emotion on this would this be to recommend that the town council adopt the surveillance use policy as amended. So it's the amendments are being submitted by the manager. It's, and I don't know if maybe look to Athena if we have to say as amended, which it would go ahead. My suggestion was as presented at the TSO meeting on today's date. Okay. I had, I had language and you could if you want. Yes, please. So the my suggestion would be to recommend the town council approve or reject, I guess, if that's, if that's your preference, the surveillance use policy for in cruiser video and audio as presented to the town services and outreach committee on May 4, 2023. Okay, I'm going to see if I'm sorry to recommend the town council approve the surveillance use policy for in cruiser video and audio as presented at the town services and outreach committee meeting. May 4. Okay. So I moved to recommend that the town council approve the surveillance use policy for in cruiser video and audio as proposed at town services and outreach committee meeting on May 4, 2023. Okay. Thank you, Anna. Okay. Dorothy. Yes. Shawnee. Yes. Anna. And I'm an I so that is for in favor with one absence. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Mandy. Thank you for having me appreciate you. I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening.  We can go back to it. We didn't vote. And there were some questions that you might have answers to that I did that. Oh, I also not go back. I was gonna say I wrote them all down for you so I figured I would reach out to talk to them at some point soon. We'll do that. I just came in late I had no idea where you guys were. Thank you. Thank you. Good night. Okay, so wow we've moved through this we do not have minutes to approve this evening. And are there any announcements anything that anyone would like to share? No. Okay, we have another early one. I guess we're on a roll from the last two council meetings and now this. So thank you all for being here and see you next meeting. I believe that is the 18th that we need. Thank you. Good night everybody.


What's up everyone? It's your girl Kenzie here from Leighton Sports Guards, and I've been a couple of personals for HPC We've got two 2022 tops five star baseball hobby boxes. All right best of luck HP So you want to get you here five star baseball? First we've got green rookie is gonna be 12 of 15 Jake Burger Mr. Burger here on the green nice low number one two to 15 And we've got how does CC Sabathia right behind it? Solid box there to start us off Hey, Sabathia through 56,375 pitches Wow pitch count era record 6,483 second most wins by African-American ale victor leader in 2009 That's cool nice one there Really cool. All right box number two Here we go. All right, we've got rookie Otto of Jackson Corps Royals Royals rookie Otto not numbered on that one And nice one here for HP. How about a bow Jackson? That's 48 out of 50 on the purple Bow knows that's awesome. Currently a white socks community relations rep. You're in several TV shows and films That's cool. Nice bow Jackson here for you Alrighty HP that will do for your two five star baseball boxes. Thanks so much and we'll get these right out to you


In recent years, artificial intelligence, AI, has made great strides in the medical field, particularly in the diagnosis and treatment of colorectal cancer, CRC. AI-assisted technologies such as computer-aided detection systems, machine learning, and bioinformatics analysis have helped to reduce the risk of CRC progression through early colonoscopy screenings. Additionally, convolutional neural networks have been used to accurately interpret pathology images, while robotic surgical systems like DaVinci have been employed to increase the accuracy of CRC surgeries. Furthermore, AI-driven advances in gene sequencing research have opened up new possibilities for personalized treatments. Overall, AI has demonstrated its potential to revolutionize the way we diagnose and treat CRC, and it is likely to continue to play an important role in the future of healthcare. This article was authored by Zhu Gong-Yin, Chen Wei-Yao, Li Ming-Zhang, and others.


Yeah, welcome back. Before the break, we were looking at verses 16 to 18 of this first Thessalonians chapter 5. So in these verses, Paul is writing to people who are undergoing severe persecution and this is what he says to them. He says, rejoice always. Pray continually. Give thanks in all circumstances. Why should they do that? For this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. I mean, at least when it comes to people who are undergoing that level of suffering, Paul could have said, oh, it's okay if you're feeling bad and you're mourning and you're feeling depressed, all right. After all your circumstances are so bad, but no, he does not say that. He tells these people who are going through the toughest times and who in fact are in financial poverty. He says to them, rejoice always. Pray continually. Give thanks in all circumstances for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. And so when we are going through our own difficulties, times of trial, times when prayers are not getting answered during those times, God's will for us is that we should continue to rejoice and continue to give thanks. So we choose to rejoice knowing that God is faithful. He will not let us down. He's taking us through a season of suffering when prayers are not being answered because he has some specific purpose in mind. Maybe he's preparing us for something. So we choose to rejoice because we know that God is faithful. We choose to dwell upon his character and we choose to continue rejoicing. And it says pray continually. So over here it just basically means to not give up. Continue to pray. So we continue to believe in his faithfulness and rejoice in his faithfulness and continue to pray even though the answer seems to be delayed. So we do not regard it as a delay. We accept that God is a purpose. And so even though we are not getting the answer on time the way we had hoped, we choose to believe in his faithfulness and rejoice and continue to give thanks in these circumstances. So something that I started to do a few months ago, I began to thank the Lord even for the unanswered prayers. You know, because God has a purpose why he is not answering yet. There must be some reason for it.  So if he is delaying the answer, then there must be a good reason for it. So I have made a choice. You know, just recently, just a few months ago that even when my prayers are not being answered, I will thank him and say, Lord, I rejoice because you are faithful and I'll continue to pray. I will not give up because this is God's will for me. And in fact, for all of us believers. So just to remind ourselves of something that is said in Lamentations chapter 3 versus 31 to 33. Lamentations 3, 31 to 33, it says over there, no one is cast off by the Lord forever. Though he brings grief, he will show compassion. So great is his unfailing love for he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone. That is the kind of God that we serve. So he does not willingly bring affliction or grief to anyone. If he is delaying an answer to prayer, it's because he has some purpose in mind, something good in his heart for us. So we can be very, very sure of the Lord's faithfulness. So even in times of trial, in all circumstances, we choose to continue to rejoice. We choose to continue praying continually and not give up. And we choose to continue giving thanks to the Lord. And so then the next instruction, because these are all things, these are all strategies which Satan tries to use to make us fall away so that we will be unprepared for the second coming. So this actually is a lovely passage. I know if someone is preaching a sermon on the second coming, they can actually take this passage and talk about how we can prepare ourselves and keep ourselves ready for the coming of the Lord. The next point that he makes is found in verses 19 to 21. Maybe we can have someone read all the way from verse 19 up to the end of the chapter. Or okay, maybe up to verse 24. I think that should be enough. So if someone could read out for us, verses 19 up to verse 24, please. Do not quench the spirit. Do not despise prophecies. Test all things. Hold fast what is good. Abstain from every form of evil. Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. And may your whole spirit, soul and body be preserved, remised at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful. He who calls you is faithful. Who also will do it. Amen. Amen. So we are told, the next instruction that we are given is do not quench the spirit. Do not treat prophecies with contempt. But test them all. Hold on to what is good. Reject every kind of evil. It's one single thought that is being expressed in these verses. All the four verses are referring to one single thing. What does it mean when it says quench the spirit? In many places in the New Testament, the work of the Holy Spirit is compared with fire. In fact, it's found in all the Gospels. In Matthew, Luke. I think even in Mark. Matthew 311. This is basically what John the Baptist says over here. In Matthew 311 he says, But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, who sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. It's talking about the cleansing work of fire, where the fire burns up all the impurities.  So it's a work which he's doing inside us continually. But we can choose to put out that fire if we want. So here, you know, Paul says, do not quench the spirit. The spirit is burning within you. He's doing his work of cleansing. He's preparing you for the second coming so that you can receive a great reward. He's doing all this for you. Don't throw water on the fire and, you know, quench it. Don't put out the fire. How do you put out the fire by treating prophecies with contempt? So when the Lord speaks to you through the leaders, when he speaks to you maybe through a prophet of God or through someone who is expounding the Scriptures and God corrects you, take that correction to heart. Accept that prophecy which is being given. Do not treat it with contempt. Because if you treat it with contempt, it's like as if you're quenching the fire, putting it out.  So that is what the Lord is trying to achieve inside you.  So he tells, test them all. You know, when someone gives you a word from God in the form of a prophecy or you receive a prophetic word from the Scripture itself, test it. You know, make sure, is this in line with what God has said in the rest of the Scriptures? If it is in line with what God is saying, then hold on to it. But on the other hand, if whatever the prophecy falls, yes, in that case, you know, reject it. But whatever is being given to you truly from God, do not treat such prophecies, such corrections with contempt. Rather, you know, hold on to these things and do what is good. To not put out the fire which is burning inside is the advice that he gives. Because when we have this kind of an attitude, then God himself, the God of peace, he will sanctify us through and through. So anyone who is serious about, you know, getting sanctified and purified and becoming ready, ready, bright for Christ, anyone who wants to do that, if they can hold on to the Lord and accept all the correction that they are being given and, you know, live in a way which is pleasing to God, then God himself will sanctify them through and through. It says, I know that that entire person's spirit, soul and body will be kept blameless. In verse 24, Paul assures and he says, the one who calls you is faithful. So he will do it. He will sanctify you.  The Lord will do that. Paul had earlier said the same thing even to the Philippian believers. In Philippians 1-6, where he says, being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion. So this is an assurance that we can have that the Lord who is faithful will sanctify us through and through. So we need to recognize that there is a fire burning inside us whether we realize it or not. The Holy Spirit is doing a cleansing work inside each one of us. And so when we spend time in His presence, when we have a quiet time, when we meditate on the scriptures, when we spend time in prayer and allow the Lord to speak to us and we hear from Him, all of these things that are going on, there is a fire burning. The Lord is going about His work of doing His cleansing. There is a sanctification work going on inside. Don't take out bucket of water and pour it on the fire and put it out. Don't quench this fire is what Paul says. So let's be sensitive to the Lord, be sensitive to the correction that may be given to us and may the Lord enable us to continue holding on to Him so that we will be blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. So all the instructions that Paul is given in these verses, it is so that we can become blameless and be prepared and ready when the second coming of the Lord happens. So with these instructions, Paul kind of brings this epistle to a this particular letter to a close and then he hears certain reports regarding something which is why he sits down and he writes a second letter. So in this first letter he talks about how they are safe and secure in the Lord even if they die even the believers who have already died are safe and secure because they are now with the Lord and when the Lord comes to collect his people the ones who have died will come along with the Lord to collect those who are still alive. So he gives them this assurance because they were very worried that some of them are already dying and the Lord has not yet come and so they were very concerned what's going to happen to the soul of these people. Will they be destined for hell? They are worried and concerned which the people had and so Paul writes this letter giving them the assurance that even if they die they are safe in the Lord and so they must continue to encourage each other hold on to him and follow all of these instructions which will enable them to become more and more sanctified so that when the Lord comes they will be blameless. So he ends the letter on a positive note he has given them hope he has also explained to them how they can be sober and awake and what they need to do to be sanctified and so whatever he has written to them in this letter should have been sufficient but then later another report comes to him regarding a certain matter and then he sits down and he writes a second letter to them so we will get into that letter now the letter of the second the second letter to the Thessalonians but then you know it would be good if I can start a new recording so if you can just hold on a minute and conclude this recording and then we can start a new one


Good afternoon, for those who are new. I'm Dr. Theron Sherman, and in today's briefing we will be discussing SCP-6605. For content warnings, we have briefed depictions of violent altercations. As Foundation staff, I'm certain most of you are well acclimated to this, but for those who are not ready for this today, I'll see you in the next briefing. With that out of the way, let's begin. Item number SCP-6605 Object Class Uncontained Special Containment Procedures On January 16, 1985, SCP-6605 was reported missing, C. addendum 6605-1. If located, SCP-6605 is to be returned to Site-19's cold storage facility. Following incident 6605-2, C. addendum 6605-2, D-8-6753 is to be monitored by increased security detail until cleared and released into the public per standard D-class amnestic release protocol. Description SCP-6605 was the severed left foot of D-8-6753, which had been removed from the lower leg during an altercation at Stateville Correctional Facility in Crest Hill, Illinois. Despite being disconnected from any other sections of a human body, SCP-6605 is still capable of locomotion. Autopsy of SCP-6605 shows that the vessels and arteries of SCP-6605 continue to pump blood throughout SCP-6605, despite not being connected to a heart or any secondary method of blood production. SCP-6605 was first discovered while D-8-6753 was still a resident of Stateville Correctional Facility, after they engaged another resident in an argument which escalated to hand-to-hand combat. During the altercation, D-8-6753 produced a switchblade, which was immediately taken by their opponent and used to cut into their left Achilles tendon. After D-8-6753 collapsed, their opponent used the blade to cut through the cartilage, connecting the tibia and fibula to the talus. Footnote 1, during the shock, D-8-6753 took the blade from their opponent and slit the opponent's throat. D-8-6753 was taken to the facility's infirmary, where they recovered and received a prosthetic foot. SCP-6605 was brought to the Foundation's attention after SCP-6605 jumped from its temporary cold storage container and continued in the direction of the infirmary's exit despite the Achilles tendon still having been severed. D-8-6753 was admitted as a member of D-Class Personnel in order to test for correlating anomalous phenomena. Addendum 6605-1 Incidents Incident 6605-1 General Incident Report, January 16, 1985 Involved Items or Persons SCP-6605-D-8-6753 At 1235 hours during the daily scheduled D-Class Courtyard period, D-8-6753 shattered a window in Site-19's cold storage facility and was apprehended in the facility. Footnote 2, this occurred despite security footage showing D-8-6753 reading in the courtyard at the time. On inspection, SCP-6605 was found missing. D-8-6753 no longer wore a prosthetic but rather possessed a fully functional left foot. D-8-6753 was interviewed but showed no knowledge of how they arrived in the facility nor the whereabouts of SCP-6605 or how they regained their foot. D-8-6753 was returned to their cell afterwards. Incident 6605-2 General Incident Report, January 16, 1985 Involved Items or Persons D-8-6753 D-8-6753 Incident Description At 1247 hours, D-8-6753 was heard screaming from their cell. After inspection, D-8-6753 was found laying in their cell next to their own corpse. The corpse was identical to D-8-6753 except that its left foot had been severed and replaced with a prosthetic and its neck had been slit open by a sharp object. D-8-6753 was found holding a shard of broken glass which had been covered in blood, presumably used to cut the corpse's throat. D-8-6753's right arm was found to have been severed at the elbow. D-8-6753 was taken to the facility's infirmary and the severed arm was taken to Site-19's cold storage facility. Thank you for listening.  Please become a patron or visit our merch store at the link in our bio to support our work. Secure. Contain. Protect.


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And now to all the parts of Africa. More than 250 migrants, the vast majority coming from Bangladesh, are taken to the port of Ben-Gudane in southern Tunisia after their boats suffered damage while they were trying to reach Europe from Libya. The migrants were transferred to a hotel on the island of Gerber to spend the mandatory quarantine period after they were rescued by Tunisian Navy Coast Guard. Tunisia has reported frequent rescue operations of migrants on the southern coast, especially between the sea route between Libya and the Italian island of Lampedusa. For the past seven years, the bodies of hundreds of illegal migrants have been reportedly seen washed up on the southern coast of Tunisia after drowning in the Mediterranean Sea. You get notified about fresh news updates.