Coming up on DTNS, the United Nations wants an investigation into who cracked into Jeff Bezos' phone. A U.S. county decides to just go ahead and hold an election on the Internet and why Microsoft is forcing Bing on some Chrome users. This is the Daily Tech News for Wednesday, January 22, 2020 in Los Angeles. I'm Tom Merritt. And from Studio Redwood, I'm Sarah Lane. In rainy Salt Lake City, I'm Scott Johnson. And I'm the show's producer, Roger Chang. We were just getting Scott Johnson's lowdown on living with the edge browser, also starting a very divisive conversation about Chile. That's all on Good Day Internet. Get the wider show, become a member, patreon.com slash DTNS. Let's start with a few tech things you should know. Motorola's foldable Razer phone has a new release date after being delayed due to unexpected demands. The new Razer will be available for pre-orders January 26 for $1,499, arriving on February 6. The Razer has a flexible 6.2 inch display and runs Android on the mid-range Snapdragon 710. 90s are back, baby. EA is pushing messages to its Tetris and Tetris Blitz app users on Android and iOS, saying the apps will be discontinued on April 21. They're already gone from the App Store. And after the 21st, neither Tetris game will be playable on devices. The mobile Tetris game called Tetris Royale from N3 network or network with an E instead of an E or three instead of an E is offering a battle Royale version a lot like Tetris 99. This, this insta correction, the Motorola Razer first arrived in 2004. Management regrets the error. Did I say 90s crap? Vodafone has announced it is withdrawing from the Libra Association that cryptocurrency project originated by Facebook. Vodafone says it's now going to concentrate its efforts on financial inclusion through its involvement with mobile money service and PESA in Africa. Vodafone does say it hasn't ruled out working with the Libra Association in the future, which what it didn't say was, so if you get your stuff together, I don't know, maybe we'll come back in. Libra Association is now down to 20 members. They originally had 28. Amazon announced on Wednesday that its music streaming service now has more than 55 million customers. This includes paid and ad supported free users. This puts it close to the 60 million total listeners that Apple Music announced in June, which includes paid and free trial users as well. Spotify announced 113 million paid subscribers in September. All right, let's talk a little bit more about this UN Bezos story. Scott Johnson to United Nations special rapporteurs for extra judicial killings and for free expression of requested an immediate investigation into allegations that Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince was somehow involved in cracking into the phone of Jeff Bezos. Saudi Foreign Minister or excuse me, Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan Al Saud called the allegations absurd and silly. A forensic analysis commissioned by Bezos himself showed his phone security was breached by a malicious video file sent from a WhatsApp account that happened on May 1 of 2018. It's been a little while. Analysts did not find malware, but the video had an encrypted downloader and the phone transmitted large amounts of data within hours of the video being received by Bezos. The Bezos phone may have been compromised by software called Pegasus. This is offered by Israel's NSO group and WhatsApp has sued NSO group in October of last year for attacking its users through undisclosed vulnerabilities. Yeah, so a little bit of recap here. If you remember back last year, Jeff Bezos wrote a Medium post accusing the National Enquirer of threatening to release personal photos of Bezos if he didn't stop an investigation into how the Enquirer acquired text messages they had published a month before. We actually took a small amount of heat from a couple of people for covering this because they said this was just a personality story, but there are there is a technology angle here and we're seeing it today. A month and a half after that Medium post, Gavin DeBecker, an investigator hired by Bezos, accused Saudi Arabia of being involved in obtaining Bezos personal data. However, at the time, the brother of a woman accused of having an affair with Bezos, part of the Enquirer story, claimed he gave the data to the Enquirer. So now, coincidentally at the same time the Davos World Economic Forum is going on, we have two UN officials calling on the United States and others to investigate whether these messages came from Saudi Arabia. And the reason that it's thought that this video came from Saudi Arabia is that it came from a WhatsApp account associated with a number given to Jeff Bezos by Saudi Arabia's crown prince. It doesn't, I mean, anybody can operate an account so it's not clear evidence that he was sending them. And if you look at Vice showing some of the UN report, it appears that it's questionable that this would come from the Saudi crown prince because it seems a little odd the messages that were being sent. It might have been being operated by someone else. It might not have been. We don't know. But the video certainly seems to coincide with a large amount of data being exfiltrated from Bezos phone. They don't have a clear connection there, but that seems a little more solid. Wow. So big target Jeff Bezos, I guess, one of the biggest money. Yeah. I mean, you know, he's real rich, influential, runs a successful company also runs influential publications.  It appears that that was something that he had shared with the crown prince and they were both at a function in Los Angeles. Okay. Well, maybe they were talking about stuff. The fact that there was some sort of fairly not bizarre video, but a video that wouldn't really mean one thing or another that had to do with, you know, there's a Saudi flag and a Swedish flag and that sort of thing where the malware was attached to getting into Bezos's phone and then a bunch of information be extracted. You think, well, that's so unfortunate. Oh my gosh, it's Jeff Bezos, richest man in the world, that kind of thing. But this is just to me, it's like this is the sort of thing that we all need to be careful of because this is what happens. Well, yeah, except we're small potatoes and hopefully we don't get targeted like this. But yeah, like these, this, this vulnerability existed in WhatsApp regardless of who you were, right? Like they did say the analysts said they didn't find actual malware, but the video had encrypted downloader and who the heck knows how that works. And presumably WhatsApp's taking care of that and fixed it. And we talked about the lawsuit and everything else. So I don't feel like I'm immediately being targeted or anything, but it's just a good reminder that none of this stuff, no matter what they tell you about ending encryption or anything else, all of it's going to have some vulnerability at one point or another. And hopefully good actors are out there finding those reporting them and they're getting patched. But then something like this happens. It's just a good reminder. Just know, you know, if you're going to put stuff on your phone for good or for ill, where, you know, somebody can get to you. Yeah. The, the video in question was kind of benign. It's, it's a video purporting to be, and I haven't seen it play, but apparently is about Telco cooperation between Saudi Arabia and Sweden. So it is the kind of video file that I could see Jeff Bezos not worrying about clicking on. If you're in WhatsApp, it's end to end encrypted. You assume that that vulnerabilities are patched. In this case, they may not have been. So it goes to show that anybody could fall for a properly targeted exploit. On the other side of this, if you're not Jeff Bezos, you may not have people willing to go to the lengths it takes to find an, you know, an NSO group of vulnerability and pay for it to make a video to send them to hack into the phone. Yeah. Let's talk about the future of autonomous vehicles, shall we? Yeah, that's better. Yeah. Lots of companies are in the mix and GM subsidiary Cruz is as well. Cruz showed off its autonomous electric shuttle on Tuesday. The Cruz origin, as it's known, is designed to be part of a fleet of ride hailing vehicles available through an app. The origin has two rows of seats. They face each other and they can seat up to six passengers. Doesn't have a steering wheel, doesn't have pedals. So it's car like, but not really a car. Origin has been tested on private roads at highway speeds, but is not yet approved for public roads. So we're not doing this on public roads. This is, we're a ways out still. Cruz is testing its autonomous technology on public roads, but in cars with steering wheels and other controls and a human safety driver. So what they're doing on public roads is kind of, you know, the norm these days. Well, Waymo has approval to test cars without human safety drivers in California. We covered that previously. So this really, I mean, GM did a great job getting people to cover this. This is GM does things that many other companies are already doing, which is have a prototype of a car without a steering wheel and pedals. We've seen that before from Waymo back when it was part of Google and Neutonomy and other companies. And Neutonomy is even testing some of their shuttles out there delivering groceries in restricted areas in neighborhoods. So they're not the farthest along, but I guess the story here is that GM's cruise division is in the game. They do have working prototypes. They do have tests out there. And I think they're trying to wow people with the design of this thing. It looks a little like a crossover SUV and not having a steering wheel in a GM subsidiary car, sort of, you know, blows people's minds. It's one thing to see it in a company like Waymo. It's another C associated with the name GM. I get that. But honestly, I'm not, this is sort of an also the GM is also doing it and making progress, which is good. Yeah, it is good. And what I like also is to see companies of their size and of their, I don't know, their influence doing something in the, the autonomous sort of ride hailing vehicle space. Like we always think of, Oh, self-driving cars are coming. We're all thinking of the one car we're going to have that will self-drive us. We don't think that much about what transit will look like. And I think in Vegas that's running now, although it has a steering wheel and pedals, but it's an autonomous vehicle that does ride hailing and that sort of thing. I think that somebody needs to do their best shot to dominate that space where else they're going to get run over. And I think that's what this is. Is their play to say, it's all, it's all well and good that we're all going to have our own personal, you know, supposedly personal cars that one day will drive us everywhere. But what about inner city stuff? What about getting from place to place in a more sort of community? The conventional wisdom is the way companies win at this is with fleets for ride hailing, not, not selling the personal cars. And I would agree. And it's important to know where your rights got. The GM is showing that they are, they are in this game. They're not going to get left behind. And also real quick, don't, I hate the whole facing passengers thing. I hated it when I had to fly on Southwest Airlines like that. I hate it. It's like moving cattle around. It's awful. Don't do it. All right. Here's another thing that I imagine there's several security professionals are saying don't do voters in King County, Washington. That's the county that includes greater Seattle will be able to vote on their smartphones in February for the board of supervisors election in King County. This makes it the first election in U S history that lets roughly 1.2 million eligible voters vote using their personal devices. Previously, the Tusk led company that's doing this also led a West Virginia election that used a mobile app for voters living overseas and military voters back in 2018. There's a county in Utah that allows mobile voting for some disabled voters. It's also very limited. But this is like a count big county, county wide. Everybody can do it if they want to you enter your name and birthday on a mobile website. Then you make your election choices. Then you verify your submission that these are the choices you want to make. You provide a signature using the touchscreen like your manual signature and you submit it. Now Washington State, not just King County entirely votes by mail. So the signatures are on file and that is what King County is going to use for verification. They will match signatures to the signature on file and then print hard copies of each ballot where the signature matches. Voters will also have the option to fill out their ballot on the web and print it out themselves, not submitted over the internet. All the ballots will be accepted between now, Wednesday, January 22nd through election day, February 11th. The worry I would have is, have you seen your finger phone signature lately? Right. Yeah. Mine is sort of like it's a series of what look like mountains. Yeah, that is a fair thought, but I'm going to give Tusk and King County credit that they have already like tried that out and made sure that the matching is close enough that that'll work. Are there any other objections? I mean, no, I want to vote this way. I'm like, I don't have no other objections because man, I do. I'm sure there are a ton of them and I'm not thinking of them, but I do look forward to the day when this happens, because I think there will be a day when it does. And I'm hoping smarter brains and me have thought of all the contingencies, but yes, I want this. I agree with Scott. I understand that there are a lot of technical things that could go wrong. We're in an era now where the voting process in general is under deep scrutiny for a variety of reasons. So this whole kind of like, oh, I can vote through an app. Cool. That's super convenient. Yay. But maybe it'll get hacked where maybe my signature won't be, you know, it'll be like some, you know, false negative, right? Where they're like, well, that isn't you. And I'm like, but it is. So there's a lot of stuff that could go wrong. But yes, in the essence of this is the future and I want it to. Don't do this. That would be my recommendation because I have not seen anything that says they are protecting against a man in the middle attack. The big weakness here would be you do it all online. It looks right to you. You've signed it. You send it through someone intercepts it, changes the votes, sends it along. You have no way of telling that that happened. King County has no way of telling that happened. Even if they print it out, it's already wrong. So until I've seen much more, and maybe they haven't, and I just haven't seen it, but much more security that says there is no way someone can intercept your ballot while it's being transmitted. I might use this to print my ballot. That might be fun to just do it locally on a disconnected computer where I print the ballot and I can see the printed ballot and know yes, that's who I want to vote for. And then I mail that in. Sure. But I'm not so certain that most of the security professionals I trust on this are comfortable that we're ready for this to be safe enough and secure enough. I agree. And I just hope we get there one day as impossible as it sounds because it changes democracy forever if they can figure it out. All right. Moving on. The UK's Information Commissioner's office published a new code of conduct called the age appropriate design code. It's a terrible film. Don't go see it. Anyway, to protect children's privacy on Wednesday. This happened on Wednesday among not just not going to protect it just on Wednesday.  General privacy settings be set to high by default and techniques to encourage children to lower privacy settings should not be used. If Parliament approves this, companies that don't comply with 15 standards of data protection involving toys, apps, social media platforms, online games, educational websites and streaming services would face quote unquote large fines, although specific fine amounts were not detailed. Yeah. So this is kind of GDPR extended. In fact, the ICO even says GDPR already protects our children. These additional standards will make sure that we're extra compliant. Those weren't its exact words, but I want to see more details on what the compliance is, but the details that I have seem seem reasonable, I guess. I mean, yeah. Before the show, we were kind of kicking around. Okay. Well, you know, how much is this going to hurt a company like Facebook monetarily? If they sort of go like, eh, we're just not in compliance and we get fined. Well, Facebook's got all the money in the world. Google would be another company. There are a lot of companies, though, that would have to say, well, we're going to have to change a lot of our default settings. And like you said, Tom, what I'm seeing now is all very, it seems, it's obvious. You're not supposed to encourage children to lower privacy settings. Location settings should be off. The nudging happens. So you need that rule. That's what I'm saying. But when you lay it out and say, think of the children, we should not be doing this. No one's going to be like, well, no, their privacy settings should be lowered by default. This is all stuff that it makes sense to me. It seems very, again, very obvious. And it seems like overall, a good thing. I would like to know what kind of fines we're talking about. Does it depend on user base? Is it a blanket fine, no matter the company? Because that could ruin an entire company. Rather than just kind of be like a small dent. And the bigger company, fines are never really the thing that caused the enforcement. Fines are just a way of putting a little bit of teeth in it. Enforcing principle. What really brings the enforcement is the public shame. The public backlash. If you have been determined by a court to have violated these rules, that's a bigger deal for the big companies like Facebook. And yeah, for the smaller companies, it could be an existential threat. That's true. Moving on to some Netflix earnings. Netflix beat expectations overall in Q4, but fell short in the US due to increased competition. Worldwide, Netflix added 8.76 million subscribers for a total of 167.1 million subscribers. Its fastest growing region was Asia Pacific, where it added 1.75 million users. Netflix added 520,000 subscribers in the US. That was short, though, of its expected 600,000. Financially, it reported stronger than expected revenue of 5.47 billion dollars and earnings per share of $1.30. Analysts had expected earnings of 53 cents per share. So they did do good on revenue. Netflix expects to add 7 million subscribers worldwide below the 8.82 million projection from analysts. So it's a little bit of a mixed bag here when you look at these numbers. The company, and this is very interesting, also has started citing viewer statistics based on a shorter amount of viewing time. So if I watched a show, and I was counted as watching a show previously, that would be me completing 70% or more of an episode of a TV show or a movie. Now, Netflix is reporting 76 million households chose to watch The Witcher, and 83 million chose to watch Michael Bay's Six Underground. But choosing to watch is now defined as starting a film or episode and watching at least two minutes. So this last is most interesting to me. Netflix grew a little slower than possible. Everybody's making a hay of like, oh, it's Disney Plus and Apple TV Plus. Okay, maybe it is. Maybe it is. It probably is. But the fact that they are moving from we never report subscriber numbers or never report viewership numbers to, we're going to report some big viewership numbers that are 70% watch to, we want to report big numbers, but they only need two minutes watch to make those big numbers. That tells me that they're feeling a little pressure to put out some even bigger numbers.   I want to be fair, but if I bounce out after two minutes of a feature length film, I did not like that film. Yeah, that is not a watch. That is me saying, I don't like it. It's not an accidental start, but it's not. And I liked it. If you have only seen two minutes of Michael Bay six underground, they should rename it Michael Bay. You did not watch it. Yeah. If you only watch two minutes of six underground, watch these two minutes. I mean, I also think they have to kind of change these numbers, not just because I think those are good reasons you guys state, but I think that there may be another thing of play here, which is there is now so much new content happening on Netflix every day, or every week new content being added that you're starting to have a kind of crowded content problem. And a lot of that content I refer to is not leaving. It's there permanently. And so a shorter view of a thing might actually be a valuable statistic because a lot of us are doing shorter checks on the thing, whether I want to see it or not, where it used to be, well, I've got this choice between movies I already know and love and this new thing they made. Now it's, I've got 20 new things they made plus eight movies that were added. I don't even know if I'm going to like this. I'm going to give it a couple of minutes. Oh, it held me. I'll stay or open. I'm out of here. Like I can kind of see why that that would be a strategy that that goes along with just content overage in there. If you know what I'm saying, if that makes me call it now, Netflix is long-term thinking. And what they want is a few years down the road when Disney plus is still reeling for people like, wait, you had all the Marvel movies, but now you lost them because of these deals that were done before Disney plus. Why can't I count on the fact that Harry Potter was on Peacock? Now it left and it's at HBO Max. Netflix will start pointing to their library and say, we own ours. All of our stuff is still there. Stranger things still there. You can still rewatch it. It'll flip. It'll try to flip it. But yeah, the international story is the one to watch with Netflix. The fact that they're international members, Latin America, Asia Pacific or skyrocketing, they're doing great international content. That is the future of Netflix. And the slowing down in the U.S. Maybe it's because of Disney plus or maybe it's just, you know, the U.S. has been kind of lagging behind for a while for Netflix. I don't know that it necessarily is. I mean, number one market for some time. The numbers have been, you know, it's, this is, this is a, this is a familiar, familiar quarterly earnings report for Netflix where it's like, Hey, international numbers are skyrocketing in particular markets specifically, but not so much in the U.S. It's like, well, you know, you reach saturation. What I wonder is, especially with original content and how that's working so well for streaming services, if you got a hit, you know, that's, that, that, that makes more sense at least to a subscriber like me than a back catalog, because how many times I'm really going to watch even my favorite movie type thing. I want to see new stuff. How is that going to change the kind of original content that people see knowing what the strong markets are? All right. Microsoft's going to force some users to use Bing on Chrome. At least that's the headline you're going to see, or maybe you've already seen. Here's the real scoop. Some businesses use something called Microsoft Office 365 Pro Plus.  It's basically Office 365 with super awesome business features for doing business. I'm Bob Business and I use Microsoft Office 365 Pro Plus. One of those features is Microsoft Search in Bing. That combines enterprise wide company search with web search. So in version 2002 of Office 365 Pro Plus, Microsoft is making it easy on folks by including a Chrome extension to install Microsoft Search in Bing on Chrome. That way, you can't have an employee claim they didn't find form WB slash five or didn't know about the new employee dress code rule because they had Google as their default search in Chrome, not Microsoft Search with Bing that had the company intranet. Now, some admins are less than appreciative of this generous move by Microsoft thinking maybe that extension should be their option, not Microsoft's. However, Microsoft does provide instructions in its support documents for excluding the Bing extension if you want, and instructions on how to remove it after it's been installed. But there's still chafing that it's the default option that it forces it in on everyone in your company. Yeah. I mean, if there was no option to reverse it, I could see people rioting. Sounds like an annoyance more than anything, but an annoyance nonetheless, especially things like this are, they never go over well. No, like forcing them, they shouldn't do that. If anything, I would rather them come up with another way for people to see that Bing is pretty good these days. Like I was surprised using Edge all week, how much Bing got me where I wanted to be. I did end up going with DuckDuckGo in the end because I just kind of really like what that is for many reasons that aren't just about the search engine, but things are all right. So do it in ways that make people want to switch to Bing. Don't force them to do it. Well, and it's combined with the intranet here. It's a total office workplace thing, which makes it a slightly different flavor to begin with. Hey, if you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes, be sure to subscribe to DailyTechHeadlines.com. And thanks to everybody who participates in our subreddit. Some of you are in IT. Some of you are consumers. Some of you are both. Submit stories and vote on the ones that you care about at dailytechnewshow.reddit.com. Also join in our conversation in Discord. You can join by linking to a Patreon account at patreon.com slash dtns. Lots of good stuff in the mailbag. Yeah. Ian, aka the geeky Brits, wrote in about the advantages of new portable dialysis technology that we talked about on the show yesterday. Ian says before my son passed away when he was 17 years old, he had perionial dialysis that was done at home and the machine itself took up half his bedroom. It was a whole overnight process, about 10 hours every night while he was sleeping. He had one option that allowed him to stay away from the machine for a night. We never pushed it more than one night. So travel, obviously very difficult. A portable solution that didn't need to make sure that he was home every night would definitely have been an advantage and would even allow a short vacation to happen. We now live in Canada, but in March we're going back to England for a week so that we can be close to him on what would have been his 40th birthday. I'm so sorry, Ian. Me too. Thank you for sharing that with us. And we did get some other feedback about this particular story and thanks to everybody who did. Folks who have passed, who are still living with the future of dialysis need for care. Yeah, and what might help quality of life in the future. So it's good to know that that means so much to a lot of folks. Yeah, and we appreciate everyone sharing their personal insights, their direct experience. Jeff Parker did that regarding the Clearview app that we mentioned. That's the one that matches scraped photos using facial recognition. Jeff says, I want to let you know more about it as I have access and use the app. I'm a felony prosecutor in Texas and at least as far as Texas law is concerned, nothing found in the app is by itself admissible in court. In fact, if you look at the attached screenshot, he sent us a screenshot, you'll see the app explicitly states that the results are not to be used in court. The app's usefulness is only in getting leads on unknown individuals. For example, someone is captured on ATM photos or seen on a security camera. Who is this person? Clearview might give you a lead to that person's publicly available photos and that in turn can lead to identifying the person, and that's how I use it. So it's important to remember it only uses photos which are publicly posted and the app merely tries to show people with similar facial features. That's somewhat reassuring, Jeff. It's good to know that there's a warning saying like this isn't admissible evidence, this is just lead generation. Lead generation can still lead to a lot of the concerns that people have with harassment or improper use, but that is a it's good to know that there's at least in Texas, that speed bump in its usage as well. Thank you, Jeff. Yeah, thanks everybody who wrote in on a variety of topics we talked about yesterday. Always good to have a full mail bag. You are so smart and you add so much context to our stories. Keep it coming. Also, shout out to our patrons at our master and grand master levels, including Andrew Bradley, Tim Deputy, and Kevin S. Morgan. And last but not least, thanks to Scott Johnson. Good enough job to get thanked. That's right. You know, we never know. We're sort of like, it's a little touch and go at the top of the show. Did a good job, Scott. What do you, what's been, what's been going on in your world besides DTNS? Well, lots of cool stuff in particular. We are a few inches more down the road to seeing a release of my new card game called Rock Runners. If you guys want to see that, you can see some of the artwork and some other stuff at frogpants.com slash Rock Runners. And watch for a Kickstarter coming soon. We're only going to finally get that thing off the ground and get that going. Rules are done and they've been edited and everyone likes them and we're good. So I don't have to worry about it anymore. We can actually make a product. So check that out. If you're into podcasts, other art, other cool stuff happening frog pants.com is the place you can always follow me on Twitter at Scott Johnson. If you were watching the video version of this, either on Twitch or YouTube, you might have noticed that Sarah and I both have these lovely knit caps that say DTNS on them. If you're listening on audio, maybe you heard it in the warmth of our voice because they're very comfy. We want you to have one of these on your head and there's only 20 left. So Dave, who runs our store said, let's give people a discount 20% off the knit cap. Keep your head warm and show your love of DTNS all at the same time. Just go to dailytechnewshow.com slash store, buy the knit hat and use the code nice hat at checkout because it is a nice hat. Oh man, this is my favorite hat. I love it. And sure it's winter, but you can rock a knit cap year round. You really can. Use that code nice hat. Good through Friday. After Friday, it doesn't work anymore. DailyTechnewshow.com slash store. Our email address is feedback at dailytechnewshow.com. Send in pictures of your knit caps after you buy the nice hat. We're live Monday through Friday at 4.30 p.m. Eastern. That's 2130 UTC. You can find out more at dailytechnewshow.com slash live. Back tomorrow with Justin Robert Young. Talk to you then. This show is part of the Frog Pants Network. Get more at frogpants.com. Bob hopes you have enjoyed this brover. Nice hat.


, , , , , ,, , .  Odysontis has D o gral d Princess skeletal Morgan manjch j sahire tablet puds mang maan kanflow kwit ay gamastre mu aaw separat kg sei kret षवीरांबावलागेर песजी।दोगरांदे नाल2  emergen अऴ meinem unserer mots वाछs एक दौजयांगा नहीं आई तो आप�्छ जामउ�蘉न के ढ़ क् archeणःभले पुछ और गी करते हूल अपने फुर भीच्चोANxter Jones पूच्ग्च कितीज़। Theseamente they will torture people and are bringing them through theront of their houses that is the criminal background which is being brought up in dogra They have been RGB increased by big regions and are being their gangers


There is a lot, there are a lot of other sort of mitigating barriers like needing notary verification or even things that are more so related to voter registration. So around needing to have somebody, a witness to co-sign your voter registration in other places. So for us, it was really important to sort of take the states from where they are and make recommendations based on that. And so we're able to move the states along the spectrum that brings them closer to sort of what we call the fullest expression of vote at home. And so in some states, like I said, that looks like removing the excuse requirement. That's really just like the base level of what we recommend and should really be in place in every state in the country at this point. Because every state in the country has the capability to process mail ballots. How do we know this? Because absentee ballots are used all over the country for some level of voters, some percentage of voters. So the capacity at the base level is there in every state. And so it's merely enfranchising as many voters as possible into that system. And so there are other pieces of that plan that are beyond sort of who gets mailed a ballot that are more so around removing barriers to a mail ballot. So we think about things like postage and making sure that really we would love at the federal level just to make sure that that enfranchisement is across the country. But even if it's state by state, making sure that voters are not having to basically pay a poll tax to be able to get their ballot back in the mail if that's how they would like to return it. So covering that cost is another piece of this and one of the various things that we speak to in our plan. Of course, we also talk about, in the more practical sense, what it looks like to sort of pool resources. And so in our plan, we really speak to what we call a localized option or regionalized option, or sorry, centralized option, which can also be called regional and then a localized option. We really advocate for the central or regionalized option wherein regions are able to pool their resources, things like sorters, which can if you if you're in a small jurisdiction and you only have, you know, a few thousand voters or, you know, what we would consider small in terms of election and administration. And you're thinking, oh man, I'm getting all of these requests. How am I actually going to process this? I don't have an army of people to sort of help me literally open up all these paper ballot requests. So then we think about resources, technical resources like sorters, that a lot of these states and local jurisdictions can invest in and be able to sort of use for the common good. And this doesn't take away anything from local jurisdictions.  You're just sharing the upfront cost and the labor in terms of the hardest parts of this process. And so what that also lends you is the opportunity for more transparency. So when we're thinking about things like post limiting audits being able to do that in a more centralized way gives you so much more visibility into the process. You can employ something like what they have in Orange County in California, where you can have live streaming of pole processing or sorry, ballot processing centers. You're able to have a lot more rigorous security in terms of who gets in and out. What the background checks look like on the people that are able to access these ballots, formal training for people that do signature verifications. So you're not having to go to every small town and every state to be able to make sure that elections are being performed in a really secure and safe way. So there are lots of these sort of accompanying practices that that we advocate for that create a healthy voted home system. And, you know, I hate to be the person that says state by state, you know, every state is different, but it really is, you know, we're looking at states like Pennsylvania where there's some movement to enfranchise more voters into voted home systems. But unfortunately, some things were passed at the legislative level that don't necessarily reflect the reality of election administration work. And so they're now having to sort of go back and correct a few of these things. And a lot of that can be mitigated by on the front end, having access to these resources and really plugging election officials and legislators into this sort of wealth of knowledge that we've been able to sort of curate over the years as Phil says from from states like Oregon that have been at this for a while but then also, you know, my home state of Colorado where we have really the gold standard model of how all these things work together really well to be able to enfranchise the most voters possible so that's that's the sort of overview of our of our plan and then on this on the second side of how people can plug in. It really depends there are lots of different pieces to this puzzle. So as of late, what we're really seeing and what we anticipated to see is really state action state and local action. All election work in our opinion comes down to that local level right like we're always thinking about the election official in the small jurisdiction who's just thinking about how to, you know, make the elections run for their community. And it's always coming down to that you know what happens at the federal level we we are actively involved in and one will always advocate strongly for more access. But now we're looking toward governors were looking towards state legislatures. Who find themselves on on on recess or any variety of things in terms of trying or in special sessions to try and secure elections between now and November, and what we're really finding is is the need for funding. And in the most recent stimulus package $400 million was allocated to election protection, and that is far below what really any expert organization has quoted. Most of us are really in the $1.2 billion range in terms of what we think election officials across the country will need to get this done. And so when we're talking about what can happen at the state level. We're talking about governors. Using their emergency powers to be able to secure funding for this we're talking about in some cases philanthropic efforts to be able to fill this gap. And we're really drilling it down that that this is just what election officials need. And that's if if nothing changes election officials will need this money to be able to conduct secure elections during this time. And while it might be helpful in the short term to kick to kick a primary election back to June or we've even heard possibly July or August in some cases. It's it that's not a fix that's not how you create an election system that works for the most voters. And what we're finding that does is creates more confusion on the voter side. As well as on the voter education piece for advocates as well because they are constantly offering changing information that erodes the ongoing trust that they've worked so hard to build with voters. So for us we we really stand in in the urgency of all of this and and really want any anybody who's thinking of advocating with us on this to really be able to speak to the urgency of what's of what's going on and in our plan. We set the data at really about April 15 so a couple more weeks for state and local officials to really decide what they're going to do for November. And some of that is just logistics things as simple but as big as ordering paper. And some of those things are just to have your dates established and doable for whatever plan of action you decide to take for local elections. So for us that the urgency piece is really big, whether that's advocating for governors to take state action, whether that's around funding and a variety of different ways. And then I really don't want to discount the, the importance of voter voices in this as well. I think, particularly as conversations about voted home are unfortunately becoming increasingly partisan. It's really, in a lot of ways going to come down to putting voters first and what what that means in practice right and so that's for us, we have built a pretty robust local op ed program so that we can lift up some of those voices that, you know, aren't necessarily unfortunately going to be featured in a New York Times or Washington Post or USA Today, and really be able to lift them up in their own local sort of press arena so that the people that are making decisions for, let's say Maryland actually get to hear from Marylanders about what they want and what they need to be able to feel invested in this process. Because we know that the other side of that is a potentially historically low turnout where even fewer of the electorate sort of decides some of the biggest and most pressing needs of our country. So, for us in terms of other other ways to plug in op eds, linking up with advocacy organizations around action suppressed governors. Of course, social media, we can't have a conversation about what you can do without social media. We are increasing our own digital capacity. Really starting toward the end of this week and into next week, just so we're able to disseminate some of the information that lives on our website and in other places so that people have access to this information, particularly around, you know, things like security and fraud, you know, that's something that we get a lot, particularly from people that aren't familiar with the system and aren't familiar with various mitigating processes that really make fraud a non issue that the numbers are statistically so low in places like Colorado and in Oregon and so really being able to get accurate and distinct information on things like fraud on things like equity and so making sure that people know about the various processes, some of which I've talked about already in terms of tracking and curing, but also voter education so that people in different communities are able to be enfranchised in this process and don't get left by the wayside as we make this quite large change quite quickly. And then of course, when it comes to social media just being able to amplify some of the media that's out there that we're putting out there to sort of lift the floor on this because what we always sort of live in is the fact that, you know, for people like me, I've only ever voted by mail just by virtue of living in Colorado but so many people have have no point of reference and I, you know, we would hate for their first point of reference to be, you know, dramatically partisan in one way or the other, and not rooted in the fact and rooted in the process of how we get this done and how and how we bring this process to the voters and really center voters with vote by mail processes. I think those are sort of the main things in terms of the plan itself and ways that people can plug in. We also have volunteer opportunities for people that are interested in tinkering with research and with data and with numbers, because as I said, research is a very big part of what we do and so if anybody's interested in that there are lots of different things I can plug you into. And then of course the local op-ed piece so whether that's we have talking points and local op-eds that we can offer to people that are interested and who may not have the bandwidth to sort of produce their own media. And if people feel really strongly and have things that they want to write or to submit, we're happy to send those sort of through our channels and be able to use our platform to lift up voter voices so that's very important to us. Awesome, thank you so much. I think, I love the emphasis that you're putting on centering the voter and making sure that as many voters vote as can vote. As many of them have the opportunity to vote and are able to actually access that franchise right and then lifting up their voices through these op-eds and letters to the editor that you're talking about I think that's super important. I do want to turn it over to allow folks who are listening to ask questions. I do want to ask real quick before we do that. Actually, if anybody has questions, you can either start typing them in the group chat, or you can click on the manage participants button and your name should be at the very top. And then there's an option to raise your hand so you can click more and then oops. Right, where is it? It's usually there. Oh, where's the raise your hand button. It used to be under manage participants, but I don't see it. Yeah, they just didn't update so. Oh man, maybe it's because of the update. Well either, well then why don't if you have a question you can type it in to the chat or you can just put raise hand in the chat and then I can unmute you so that you can ask Lucille personally. But while while folks start thinking of questions, one thing that I wanted to ask is, you know, a lot of people, their, their state might already have absentee ballot option. Some states currently they have an absentee ballot but it's only, you know, you have to have a legitimate excuse. So what's the best way for people to figure out, you know, what what the rules are in their state because I know a lot of people they might not really even know so is there a centralized resource that they need to go to their Secretary of State. What do you guys recommend. Yeah, so there are a few things, obviously the most sort of direct but also often the most convoluted way of doing that is going directly to your Secretary of State, that's where the most official established version of all your different options will live. Unfortunately, I also have to tell you that sometimes stopping your Secretary of State or your local election official on Twitter, particularly with the most pressing updates on the things changing as quickly as they can, can do that is often a way to do that as well. I wish it wasn't, but it is. Plus, we tend to just by virtue of having that really strong connection with election officials we sort of tend to know about things through through those routes but you know as as any given voter I would say, definitely go to your Secretary of State that will be the most official version of things. That being said, there are lots and lots of voter directed organizations that will be able to offer some some information on this. One that we've found recently that is quite helpful is, we can vote us. And so that is one that is made by one of our partners the Center for secure and modern elections and so that's a place where you can kind of look up your state and figure out what some of your options are. Unfortunately, even with that you know if you live in a state like Nebraska. Some of these things can vary quite widely by county, but that's that'll be sort of your first port of call in terms of figuring out what you can do in your state. What's available and what you what you need and most importantly what the dates are because unfortunately a lot of those are moving based on when primary dates are being moved. So that that's unfortunately right now sort of the best way to do it. And I wish I had a better answer there. No, I think it's that's understandable with so many things that have to do with elections, you're constantly having to say well it really depends on your state or depends on your locality every state is different. That's, you know, one of the advantages and disadvantages of our federalist system here where everybody kind of is able to make their own rules. So you kind of have to just check out check out the local laws online so thank you. We do have some questions coming into the chat so Robin says, are there any states beyond the three you mentioned that are in the pipeline to have mail in voting. And I'm assuming that what you mean by having mail in voting is moving to what we would say is a level five where most if not all of the states are being mailed about it. And I say that because technically every state in the country has the ability to issue a voter. A mail ballot. Now there are restrictions based on who can request that and who is eligible for that based on state, and then somewhere in the middle there there are a wide variety of states where you don't need an excuse. And most people don't know that or don't have access to that or there isn't capacity to process what could amount to a majority of voters voting by mail. So, I assume you mean the level five version and states that are moving there. So California was already well in its way. They conducted I believe it was 70% of jurisdiction or sorry counties in California were already mailing out all of their mailing ballots to all of their voters. And they will most likely move to a full vote by mail or I said direct to voter mail ballot system. There are states like Montana that are quite close to that. So, or let's say Arizona where again lots of voters are using this already they're requesting it. There's another sort of tier that we call permanent absentee so basically what that means is if you've requested to get an absentee ballot you don't have to do it for every subsequent election. So maybe that means in some states that means that you get a ballot sent to you for every election over the course of a year, and then you have to refile. And in some states that looks like getting a permanent ballot in general so I should say mailed to you at every election. So Arizona is one that is moving toward that California is one Montana's there. There's some movement in terms of Maine. And so in general to that you have to think about whether or not those states are moving to that model in the primary if they're moving to that for November, or if that's sort of a change they're making in general because we're also seeing states like Massachusetts, make availability for that for special elections but not necessarily for sort of regular process elections. And so for that you know we we really like to really stress the fact that that voters really like voting by mail where when they can they do. So it's it'll be quite the challenge I think for these states that are implementing the process of either mailing voters ballots or mailing requests directly to ballots which is not as good but sometimes you have to take what you can get that when voters have that experience and when they see how how convenient and accessible that is they rarely want to go back so we'll see we'll see what happens. I hope that answered the question. As I add on to that it looks like Doug Goodman mentioned that Nevada has a no excuse absentee ballot, but the Secretary of State has ordered the June primary to all mail, and he says that all voters will automatically be mailed a ballot and so he's hoping that there's going to be some good information from that following the primary. I know that my home state I'm I'm in Colorado now too but my home state of Ohio. They have decided to go for an all male primary as well I think that's going to be sometime here in April, I think. Phil is shaking his head now so I'm sure he's got something to say there. Sorry. Phil is shaking his head. Yeah, I'll unmute yeah. Oh, it's not. There we go. Oh, we had it for a second there we go. Okay. I think that's a good distinction. Ohio is mailing out a notice to all its voters telling them how to apply for an absentee ballot. And this is a fundamental. It's I would argue more expensive. It's more confusing. It will not produce anywhere near the turnout impact. I think that's that with what Doug mentioned about Nevada. And I want to add that Hawaii in Utah in 2020 will also be doing all voted home elections they just decided that a while ago. The challenge right now and follow up on what Lucille said is virtually every state that holds a primary in the next two months is going to have a majority of its votes cast in the form of mailed out ballots. That is made that inevitable that's not a policy driven change that's a worse pandemic in a century driven change. The real interesting question that we're seeing across the country is which states are going to stop in that kind of halfway point, which I would argue is the most confusing most expensive and in some ways more most difficult, and just they have to flood it with applications come in every day clerks have to turn them around. People are confused about the rules, etc. Versus which stage will hold their primaries in the model that the five regular states are and now it looks like Nevada, and, and Montana, they're going to leave it up to the counties to do it and I think most of the counties will. That's in real contrast to the states that are going to just simply encourage people do to do mail out ballots, and states are going to do that because the alternative is so often to ask people to risk their lives and health to ask poll workers to do that. It is a tough situation and this is breaking news this morning the governor in Wisconsin said, we can't do it I'm going to order the polls to shut. It got appealed to the Wisconsin Supreme Court and about an hour ago the Wisconsin Supreme Court ordered that the election goes forward as ordered before so they'll have polls open tomorrow. That's across the landscape, and one of the things the National voted home Institute is trying to do is bring a bit of order and rationality to a very chaotic situation right now. One thing that I would add there just a little bit before we head to the next question and I know we've got about 10 in there that we probably want to get to is really putting a finer point on what Phil was saying around the distinction between sending voters a notice to request. There are so many different barriers and that's more so you know if anybody is familiar with like program management, the more hurdles you have people go through the more areas that you're likely to lose people. You know, when, when we talk about mailing a ballot directly to the voter. That's the most expedient way to a both notify them that it'll an election is happening. Be give them the amount of time to consult their trusted sources organizations peers, family members, and then figure out their varied ways to return their ballots, as opposed to you again having to have people go directly to their secretary state figure out when the election is figure out when their ballots, when they can request about it if they can request about it. And so when we talk about you know what our ideal ecosystem is. That's why we really speak to mailing a ballot out to every voter and then having the varied ways to return, because these sort of intervening and intermediary steps really create defects in this system that are that just don't yield the results that you want. So yeah that's, that's all I wanted to add there on that one. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and you know I, most of my Facebook friends are from Ohio and I've been seeing some posts and even I mean I work for the Center for election science this isn't our job vote by mail isn't our job but I like to think I have a little bit of a handle on what's going on with elections and even me I got confused so I can totally see how that would be really confusing for voters who, you know, are just trying to figure out how to access their ballot. So I think things were more consistent. Okay, so yeah we've got lots of questions in here Colin asks how, what the best way to follow up with you about helping out with research and numbers and possible content generation is. If you've got a website or something feel free to type that into. Okay, so I'll pop this in the chat but really the easiest way is to contact me and then our executive coordinator she is our first port of call for for our volunteers and sort of helping them get plugged into sort of the best tracks there. And so I will leave those emails in the chat right now. So thank you Lucille. Okay, next we have Paul Burke he says that he believes voted home is needed in November. He says I worry that signature verification when envelopes come in for checking has a big potential for voter suppression. You propose machines and bipartisan teams which can be appointed bipartisan officials. Is there validation of machine checking by race, age, sex, length of name. So actually, what we found is the best and I'm sure Phil can sort of speak a little bit to this as well is actually having it be demographic blind in terms of the sorting, because actually where we see a lot of voter voter suppression voter disenfranchisement in the vote by mail process, or I should say, in in person voting is actually at the polling place so that is the the poll worker, having their own either implicit bias or just human error involved with processing same day registration that can be in terms of officiating ballots on the day of and then. So when we talk about significant, sorry, signature verification, we're really talking about it being as impartial of a process as possible and appointing bipartisan teams, a ballot is only ever thrown out if both of those people see that there's a see that there's a discrepancy and vote for it to be out so. Well, yes, there is the those people are appointed there's still that that sort of feel safe there. And it's by no means 100% but what we do know is that the majority of the sort of voter suppression voter disenfranchisement that happens in the polling place is due to either bias and poll workers or just human error so the more we can invite scrutiny and review and double checking both by electronically and through bipartisan actors, the more accountability there is so that it's not just up to these one on one interactions with people who may or may not have the best interests of the voter at heart so that's definitely one of those measures and then there there are other mitigating factors and we talked about tracking and things like that so there there are ways to sort of better get at and better address some of these concerns in terms of signature verification, especially when we know what the alternative is. Gotcha. Phil, did you have anything to add. Just just Lucille is absolutely right to keep it blind that's what we've done in Oregon, all along other states haven't done that Georgia was a real offender about doing that. You know, a lot of voters signatures change. Even I've got kids in their 20s they've kind of they're still working out what their signature is going to be. It is important that they match though and it's important to have that validation. Those who who have been trying to suppress the vote would would use the lack of signature verification to completely try to discredit this system, even though it is more secure. It's more reliable if you have to do a recount when you have paper ballots rather than machine generated and software enabled machines. So, I would urge people as they work on this issue to try to fix those signature problems and not succumb to some who say well, it's just a bad idea it's actually an essential part of ensuring the integrity of this approach to voting. And also it's it's a particularly good process when coupled with curing, particularly direct to voter hearing. So, you know, I think, particularly of a co worker of ours, Audrey Klein who was initially going to be on this webinar. She had her mother had Parkinson's and her signature changed. And so that's the sort of thing where it might come up as an inconsistent signature, but then that's one where you can go directly to your voter say is this you. And then that voter can actively participate and know and feel really enfranchised in the process of saying yes that's me or no that's not. So, again, it just kind of puts you when it's unwell there are, there are multiple checks and balances in the system to better mitigate this and all of those checks and balances amount to more security more verification, more enfranchisement than the simple interactions with one on one or two on one full workers. That's super helpful. Thank you. I hadn't even thought about, you know, Robin mentioned in the chat, you know, somebody having a stroke you mentioned Parkinson's I hadn't really thought that much about that. So it's nice to know that there are ways that you can you can mitigate that and steps you can put in place. Okay, then we've got Ryan, he says he's curious if Oregon Washington or Colorado use public service announcements to educate voters on the process on the process is used in vote by mail. What questions did voters have when the switch to vote by mail occurred in those states. Yes, so actually, and that's something that we haven't gotten to talk too much. Yeah, so thank you so much for that question. Really robust voter education campaigns are sort of what we love to see and what we really encourage and is is a pretty hallmark part of our strategic plan in terms of what we have to see for secure accessible elections in primaries and going into November. And so what we've what we've found is the simple act of mailing the voter a ballot is a very, very, very good tool and a lot of things can be integrated into that and directly to the voter along with the ballot in terms of education. So, you know, here in Colorado, you receive your ballot you receive instructions about how to fill it out, you receive information about all of your local polling centers, and all the information that you need for any sort of mitigating factors like things that being weird with your ballot if you need to vote a provisional ballot, etc. So that's, that's sort of the gold standard is when you're sending a voter a ballot that's a perfect opportunity to give them a ton of really supportive education materials. That being said, Denver but also a bunch of jurisdictions I'm going to particularly pick out Orange County in California have employed a really robust education campaign for voters. So that sort of get them used to all of the different sort of pieces there right so that whether that's dates whether that's what's available to them in terms of modes to return what to do in terms of needing contingencies, which we do find though that additional ballots go down to very, very, very low numbers and states where voted home is is used quite widely. So you tend to not need as much when you do it well in the first place, but all that aside, you whenever you have a voting system even when you're sending ballots directly to the voter there's a huge voter education piece that election officials really should take on if they're if they're doing it well and I think a lot of that challenge doesn't come necessarily for larger jurisdictions like say in Orange County, but definitely that that gap shows itself the most in smaller jurisdictions and so one of the things that we do it voted home is, and we're in the process of sort of repackaging this for election officials today. But making sure that they have access to lots of these sort of starter voter education pieces that they can use and adapt and push out so that voters can really get as much education as possible around what process or what processes are available to them. But what I will say though is without any kind of voter education without any kind of official pushes, even with all the different changes, you have multiple magnitudes of increased requests of absentee ballots across the country. So regardless of whether or not there's a robust education system voters are asking for this and so the voter education system is what you layer on top of that to make sure that all voters have access to the information that they need. And not just the voters that are particularly tuned into the new cycle or who have done it before are familiar with it.  But in some of these states where, you know, we're not going to go the full way by November unfortunately, it's really going to be about the voter education piece and how we layer that on top of the various things that happen that are happening. Like I said, it's really hard to start thinking about your voter education when you're still having fights at the leadership level about what you're going to do with your election as a whole. So that's sort of like a tier two version of these issues and what I will say in terms of education as well is we have these states that are conducting primaries right now. And the reason why we're not talking about them and the reason why we're not talking about them is because they're doing it by vote by mail, and they're having significantly lower issues than these states that are having to dramatically and franchise voters because they don't, because there's a previous reliance on in-person voting, which we know cuts out lots of people across different communities, whether that's, you know, various ethnic groups, whether that's people who are more rural voters, people who are shift workers, people who are not able to afford childcare for the amount of time that they might be staying in the line. So yeah, when we're thinking about sort of what's possible there in terms of voter education, you need more education the less well you do it in the front end, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And what you said about sending the voter education with the ballot, if you're doing it that way, if you're doing the all in package, that totally makes sense because you're sending everybody their ballot and then you know that they're going to see that voter education at the same time. But if they're doing it kind of piecemeal, it makes it a little bit more difficult, right. And then we just got a comment in from TS who asked, could we use Trump's declaration of emergency to force universal mail-in voting on health grounds? I don't think you'd ever want to go there. There's a chuckle. So, logistically, theoretically, that is a possibility. When we're thinking about what's probable, we're really thinking about governors and governor's abilities to use emergency declarations to make things happen at the state level. And particularly when we think about national things, we, as for our organization, we think a lot about funding and we think a lot about removing some of the barriers in the ecosystem like prepaid postage. So those are the things that we think are most likely, most plausible to be able to move in a big way, especially seeing some of the movement around some of the economic measures in states corresponding to various party lines, unfortunately, rather than directions from the health community. It's just unlikely to see that sort of national change based on that. But one tidbit that I will like to tell you is that the president and the first lady have requested their absentee ballots from the great state of Florida. So if that tells you anything at all. That's helpful. So as you were talking about going to governors rather than trying to, you know, force it on a national level, and Robin actually asked whether your organization at National Vote at Home Institute has spoken directly to governors. I have spoken directly to nearly if not all governors in the country at this point to talk about what their options are at this stage, and to give some of them credit some of them have come to us. So that's just from being in the space for so long to sort of get get our lay of the land of what's possible and so that's definitely something that that we're plugged into. Because I think there are a lot of governors across the country that are really taking this, this very seriously, and are very much invested in what their, their duties are what their roles are in terms of securing the, the health and livelihood of the other people in their states and so I think every, I think every governor in the country is at least thinking about it how much you know will there is there to actually get it done how how much hesitance there is around the process of getting it done. They're, you know, in terms of resources as well you know if you're looking at a project that you've never considered before. Thinking about how to do it and making sure that you're not breaking something while you're fixing it is obviously about concern and so for us. It's really important to sort of be that be that mitigator to say, Hey, this is this is a process oriented that you can make this is a bipartisan route that you can take. This is a route that election officials and election administrators stand by and would like to be able to do. Should the resources be made available. And here is how you can do it. And here's what they need so. Yeah, those are definitely conversations that are. Can you guys hear me. The seal is frozen for me but it might be my internet. Oh, you can hear me Phil. Yes, maybe maybe it's Lucille then. Oh, hi. Now you're back. That's the joy of working with the internet right. Yeah, I think you were it sounded like you were kind of wrapping up about just going to the governor's making sure that they have all of the tools and information they need and that's kind of how how you all view your, your role at home is to just make sure that they have as much information as they need and identifying ways that you can mitigate any, you know, issues that they might be having right for sure. Okay. All right, and then I think that you may have already answered this but just to make sure. Okay, so Jessica asks what the best way for her to get started on some of the voter voice action items like op-eds educating the public is and so she should just email either you or Ali correct. Yes, so preferably both of us so that we email the other one will catch it. Yeah, so that's that's the best way and then we'll get you connected with sort of our press team so that we can get you connected with sort of what what you or some of your fellow advocates might need on this.  And so, you know, depending on what your affiliations are and all those things really being able to sort of hopefully plug you in and be able to lift your voice and because like I said, you know, our place in this ecosystem tends to be really much in the space of knowing how these things work and making really strong expert recommendations but again we really want to make sure that this this whole effort is rooted in in voter experiences and making sure that that those voices are being heard through all this, especially as things become increasingly more partisan and unfortunately we might we anticipate seeing a lot more misinformation about the process out there. So really being able to keep this as much as we can in in the arena of research and effects and really being able to lift up the voter experience and give voters what their access to their right to vote. Absolutely. Okay, I think I there's just one more question if any I'm just going to give a last call because I know we're right. We're past the hour now. So if anybody else has any questions please go ahead and stick them in there so we can get them answered for you. But we have one more question from Colin he asked what is the recommended time period between when ballots are sent out and the last day they can be received. This might be a better question for Phil because I know that this varies greatly across the country and has to do with sort of the local sort of requirements and then there's what's accepted nationally so I'm going to kick this one to fill. Yeah, it's usually we recommend at least two weeks and maybe as much as four. You also have military ballots that have to go out even sooner federal law effects those kind of separately and they get them up sometimes 45 or 60 days out. But I think as we mentioned earlier some states count the ballot but it has to be in by election day. Some states actually even say it has to be in the day before. Postmark and we're recommending that most states move to a postmark that states move to a postmark time. And the postal service has gotten a lot better tracking mail than when we started doing it in Oregon 20 years ago we've worked with them. They've been a great partner concerns that people do have about mail getting delivered in either direction. I think that's not totally perfect but they've done it. I think a pretty remarkable job and know that they're in the spotlight right now with what's happening if there's any organization in America that knows it needs to perform very well. In the public eye I think it'll be the postal service in this upcoming election. So the. You want to get it people a couple of weeks to have the ballot in their hands before they actually have to get it back. And the one thing I would add there to is our recommendation is postmark and that's postmarked by election day. But what we also the sort of asterisk that we that we add there is then we also have to be patient for actual processing right so you know when we're at things like super Tuesday and everybody's calling states based on exit polls and all this all this stuff and everybody sort of wants that that really immediate sort of call for this. Definitely, we can see that the voting by mail extends that, but also when you are able to process ballot so this is another again like case of what what is the best ecosystem and how can we facilitate the best ecosystem. We do accept by postmark, but you're also in an ideal system giving election officials up to you know anywhere between a couple of days to two weeks before the election to start processing those ballots. So, you know, take Jefferson County here in Colorado. They, you know, do a vote by mail system. They do early processing and so they're able to really to basically track returns in real time. And so you're not actually seeing those delays that we see in some of these places where, you know, you get all these male ballots and they basically have to sit somewhere safe and locked up and secure until you're able to actually start processing them right and so then you're processing all the in person ballots and then somebody calls something on the in person ballots, and then people sort of try and act like the the mail balance are there. And in states or jurisdictions like DC where only 5% of voters roughly are turning in mail ballots, you know that might be statistically negligible, but nobody wants to hear that their ballot is statistically negligible right and so we really want to make sure that we are preserving the sort of media landscape as well for these states that don't have the early processing but do have mail ballots to make sure that we are waiting for all those ballots to come in, and that we all have a consensus around those ballots mattering right. So that's, that's the one asterisk that I would add to that in terms of postmark. There's so much to think about so much to think about I'm glad that you guys are here to help us through it. Emily has a really interesting question and I've seen this posed in kind of different frames. But the way she asks it is what do you say to people who opposed votes vote from home due to concerns about women and abusive relationships, being able to vote for themselves. And as I mentioned I've seen people kind of have a similar concern about folks who may have a certain type of disability or they may be older and maybe, you know, younger people on their household or somehow forcing them to vote a certain way so what's your response to those concerns. Yeah, so I think in that question, we're talking about a few different groups and so I would really hesitate to group them together. So the first one speaking about people in abusive households. So what having an extended voting period with and mailing ballots directly to voters allows you to do if you're in that scenario and you're receiving unfortunately, a balance or coercion is that you are able to actually have access to a polling place outside of the ballot that you get mailed if you feel that you need to have have that different option. So it's definitely not locking voters into only voting the ballot that comes to them in the mail. And because of specific barcodes there you're also taking out the possibility that somebody's going to vote twice on the same ballot. So those things are pretty well tracked both from by election officials but also through USPS through barcoding and unique signaling on the ballot itself. So if I am sort of the, if I'm experiencing coercion I have various other ways in order to cast that ballot. So I'm not sort of restricted to an in person at home pressure situation that being said the alternative for for a lot of these folks can often be voting in person which, and I should say only voting in person, which can also sort of pose its own challenges for for people that are in abusive relationships, and not being able to leave experiencing lots of pressure at the polling booth. And so what mailed ballots mailed out ballots or allow those people to do is find different ways to cast their ballot that are outside of the home, and really anywhere so that could be at the home of a trusted third party that can be in a car that you know you drop off, or it can be going to an in person polling station, sorry not polling station vote center, and voting in person rather than voting with a mail ballot at home so there are various options there. I talked about people experiencing abuse but also people with disability. So people with disability are one of the groups that we specifically advocate for in person voting options and so like Phil and I spoke to earlier, when we talk about, you know, full vote by mail. We're not just talking about mailing every voter about it we're also talking about leaving the full spectrum of ballot return and so for some people that does look like going to a polling place particularly people with specific physical disabilities. And so those folks will likely go into a polling place in person and either receive physical aid or be able to use electronic voting aids that are able to sort of help them in the process rather than making them rely on a paper ballot. Same with elderly folks. A lot of the time what we see with elderly folks particularly like say if they live in a nursing home is those ballots will be particularly I can speak to what happened in Colorado those ballots are actually hand delivered by sort of, I forget exactly what the term is and I'm going to call them agents of the government which seems very nefarious but they're designated people. So not just like, you know, random person. And so they get delivered in a very deliberate and so specific way that's the same for a bunch of people any case where there's a large group of people that live under the same physical address. And so that's a way that those people are able to specifically get their ballots specifically make sure that they're being enfranchised. That being said, fraud in a in a variety of ways and that's one version but there, you know, others tends to be remarkably low and voted home systems because of some of the other mitigating factors that we've talked about before not to sort of beat it over the head. But there are lots of coordinating aspects that that let you sort of mitigate that and really giving people a longer period and more options gives them more abilities to sort of escape negative situations and cast their vote in one of those other ways. I hope that answers the question. I think, yeah, that makes a lot of sense and it's helpful to see how having multiple choices, multiple modes of voting can really help to enfranchise voters because all of us have so many different needs so many different situations in life. And it, it seems to make sense that that means that we need multiple ways to be able to cast our vote right. You know, Phil is here in the in the comments section to so I'm happy to take on anything that he hasn't necessarily spoken to specifically. Oh, okay. Yeah, I didn't see that so it looks like I wanted to address some of the things that that people have asked for because if in case we run out of time and want to emphasize that we're available to just directly, you know, contact us if people have any, any other questions.  That's tough as you put your ballot in, you can't be getting in a situation you're letting people come in and say, gee, I want it back. So we tell people, wait, don't go too early. A lot of people in this presidential primaries just voted way earlier than they needed to. That's why the postmark is important. You don't have to worry about whether it gets received by you can wait until election day just put it in a, in a, in a mailbox. And, you know, the, you know, the assumption and a couple questions about pushing for Congress to mandate vote voting at mail on all the states and again when we say mandate voting by mail. I don't not see Congress ever saying that all 50 states need to automatically mail everybody their ballots. Maybe, you know, maybe down the road but for now, the single most important thing Congress could probably do is just simply saying a federal election will pay the postage. Take that issue off the table. It's states and local governments are now having to pay for it. It's an impediment. You know, my own kids, they're in the 20s they often don't have stamps. So, simple things that that that can be done to further this along and and not overreach we're at a time right now that that people have to be careful not to use the pandemic itself as trying to get a lot of other things that might be good election policy but aren't central to actually holding an election at the moment. And the final thing I want to emphasize is there is no perfect election system, there will always be problems and glitches. What is important is that there's transparency and the ability to see it and Lucille's made some great points about the importance of audits to be able to look back and ensure people that the counting machines are working. I think in an election that already was slated to be one of the most contested and polarizing in my lifetime and I'm in my mid 60s. So having paper ballots at the end of the day and a lot more than we expected to have because of what's happened is one of the best protections we have about people losing for testing the results and not accepting them. There still may be some of that, but I think this is a method that really will help minimize that, but we do have to work to try to get as best systems and processes in place and we'd love everybody's help who's on this call to be advocates for us in all the right places. Yeah, and just to do a super quick whip around on a couple of the last minute messages before we close. It looks like Colin was asking about things like candidates dropping out of the race and accused of crime or scandal. So in a lot of states, what ends up being best is running this in parallel with ring choice voting, which negates this this issue. They'll also spoke to the fact that while you have an extended period to return your ballot, it does not necessarily mean that you have to return your ballot right when you get it so that's also a thing there. This also tends to really be an issue with primaries like the primary that we had this year on the Democratic side, where there is an extremely wide field and also the primary season is extremely long. So while that is not common is obviously a thing that we've observed, and those are a couple of mitigating factors, somebody asked about death of a voter and so usually what happens is that all ballots are against the death registry. So it's there actually very robust ways that that states and local jurisdictions keep track of who dies. And so that's what gets mapped against the the voter files and usually things like that. And the same can be employed with voter registration as well so while voter registration is not directly related to mailing everybody about it is obviously part of the ecosystem like I said before and so a lot of states will use various second party information that they for that they already keep for people updating their addresses and that's one of the one of them mitigating things that we really recommend particularly for voters of different minority groups that are that have a higher percentage rate of changing addresses so it's not necessarily relying on the voter to come and say hi I changed my ballot I need to change my address I need another thing. But as they're doing these other processes and changing changing their addresses there, making sure that those things are are either automatically updated, or that they trigger an electronic sort of kickback where then the Secretary of State can say, Hi, your we have seen through, you know whatever other system we're using that you might have to change your address is that correct. So that's one of the other mitigating factors. Phil already spoke to Congress, and then I think I, I think I got everybody. Hopefully I'm sorry if I did not please send me email with your question if I didn't. I forgot everybody but I know that Colin did ask earlier. Hey, I have a million questions I could go all night. I know this is super interesting for a lot of people listening so if they have lots more questions, what's the best way for them to get in contact with you all, or who should they get in contact with that vote at home. Yeah, so if it's more of a general question around how voted home works or maybe in terms of like wanting to access a number or research. So I think the first port of call is to go to www.voteathome.org. That's our website. I will drop it here. And at the top right of the homepage, there's a link called the reference library. And so that has a lot of our latest sort of research and findings, all in one place, as well as resources for for a lot of these things, our strategic plan and other things are in there as well, if you want to have some nice bedtime reading. And so if it's more of a general question I would recommend emailing that to info at voted home that help drop that in here info at vote at home.org you will be met with our amazing director of research Jerry lingler and he is a wealth of knowledge and then anything related to specifically plugging in or getting involved. That would be me or Ali and I dropped our emails in there before I just type in those in again just so people have them just in case because I know it can be a pain to scroll back through the chat. Well, if nobody has any other questions I just want to thank both of you Lucille and Phil for being on this call I really really appreciate it it's been super informative and interesting. I was so interested at the beginning that I just jumped in I didn't even say who I am or what my organization is so I should probably put in a quick plug my name is Caitlin Ali pinia I'm the director of operations and programs for the center for election science. We're a non partisan nonprofit that studies and advocates for better voting methods. So when we're talking about voting methods we're not talking about the the mode so mail in or electronic or in person we're talking about the actual information you're able to provide on your ballot so what we advocate for is something called approval voting. It allows you to vote for as many candidates as you like so if you like three candidates you can vote for all three and then the candidate with the most votes wins. Last year we helped Fargo North Dakota become the first city in the US to implement approval voting and now we're working with some activists in St. Louis, so that they can get it implemented for their city election so if anybody's interested in learning more about that and learning about our work you can find us at election science.org. And we're also hosting we're trying to host a lot more of these events because I know that people are stuck at home right now. They're trying to find content they're trying to interact with others. So we're trying to host these virtual events to help inform people and keep them engaged. And so we have more coming up if folks are interested in RSVP and taking a look at those so I'll stick that link. And in the chat as well it's election science.org slash they take that dash action slash events. But thank you again to Liz Lucille and Phil you guys are doing such important work at vote vote at home. I hope everybody goes and checks out your website and learns more about how they can get involved. But yeah, thank you guys so much we really appreciate it. Thanks everyone and hope to hear from somebody else soon. Yeah, thanks everybody have a good night.