Hemi-facial spasm is a facial movement disorder that consists of tonic and chronic involuntary movements of muscles observed by the facial nerve. In this patient's example, you can see movements around the eye, around the mentalus, and I think it's easiest to see that these movements particularly are chronic. Occasionally, you'll see superimposed tonic movements, particularly around the mouth. Here's another example of a patient's facial movements. His are secondary to a cerebellopontin-angle epidermoid tumor. The first patient's was a sequelae of a Bell's palsy. Here you can see the movements around the obicularis muscles, and here movements around the mentalus. Although oftentimes this disorder is idiopathic, one should suspect compression of the seventh nerve, perhaps from a tumor or a dolicoactatic basilar artery. Other times it can be the sequelae of trauma or a Bell's palsy. Oftentimes, however, it's simply idiopathic.


Madrid is out the men's drawer is out and we've got some big names playing but some big names are not playing Some top 10 players are not playing. Let's go through the withdrawal list to start with so the withdrawal list three players are not playing Mevvedev he's out Baratini also out and Vavrenka also out of this one So only three names out and here it is the top half of the draw We've got Novak Djokovic buying the first round the top seeds get a buy in the first round top eight seeds Get a buy in the first round Djokovic buying the first round he'll take on the winner of Camino Valero taking on Montfies Djokovic will wait the winner of that then we've got one of the best first-round matches going around Murray takes on Dommie team. What in the hell is that? That's a crazy match up must watch first round winner of that match Takes on either a qualifier or Schapeval of the 14th seed in the second round Then we've got her catch taken on a quali winner of that match takes on either Harris or Fakina in the second round fun Match there then he got charged versus Batista Raghu winner of that takes on number five seed Kasparud who gets a buy in the first round crazy part of the draw Obviously Djokovic back in action Murray team I mean Shapo her catch Fakina rude.  We've got Nadal buying the first round He's the number three seed then winner of that or he awaits the winner of catch Menevich takes on Bublick Catch Menevich is in good form very very interested to see how that plays out Carrots it takes on a quali winner of that match takes on either van de Zanshoop or Carinio Buster the number 16 seed in the second round Then we've got the number nine seed Norrie he takes on a qualifier winner of that match takes on either Crianovic or Isna in the second round then we've got Bacillus really taking off Fanini That's a fun match the winner of that match takes another seven seed Carlos Elcares in the second round I mean that top half of the draw is just insane it's filled with great clay quarters filled with players that have either won titles on clay or Currently playing well on clay or just in general just playing well this year. It's full of killers that top half of the draw Let's go the bottom half which is way more open So we've got Ruebler number six seed he gets a buy in the first round winner of that match takes on either Sine or sorry he awaits the winner of Sinego or Draper We're going out in the first round then we got Evans taking on Delbonus winner of that match takes on either Brooksby Number 11 seed Fritz in the second round then we've got Schwartzman taking on a quali winner of that match Takes on either Dmitrov or a quali in the second round. Dmitrov the sorry Schwartzman the number 13 seed Then we got Pui taking on Hashinov winner of that match takes on the city pass the number four seed in the second round Very interesting part of the draw there Rueblev city pass Rueblev Obviously in great form city pass has won a title on clay this year as well. So a bit of a clay quarters Section there interested to see how Fritz goes, you know Schwartzman He did pretty well last week Dmitrov's done well on clay this year interesting part of the draw there Then we've got FAA the number eight seed buying the first round He takes on either Tiafo or Garin in the second round then we've got Diminor versus Martinez Winner of that match takes on either Tommy Paul or Yannick Cinder the number 10 seed in the second round Cinder's gonna that's a tough start for Cinder Then you've got Opelka taking on quarter Opelka the 15th seed winner of that match takes on either Ravashka or a qualifier Then you've got Chilich versus Ramaphans Ramaphans Van Oles winner of that match takes on number two seed Sashes Vera this part of the draw is Sashes Vera have to lose. I mean he should he should Get through who's gonna win this tournament though. I mean the top half of the draw is so stacked It could come from them but my My god, I don't know how how we're gonna I mean by the time the person at the top of the draw gets through they can be too tired to win the tournament I mean Zverev is probably the favorite. Maybe Sinner.  Maybe it's Rubelev's time


From the Aria Resort in Las Vegas, it's theCUBE.  Hey, welcome back everybody. Jeff Frick here with theCUBE. We're at AWS re-invent 2018. I can't wait to get the people count. It's crazy, we're kicking off nine days of coverage over the next three days. We've got four sets in three locations, but today we're at the AWS Marketplace Service Catalog Experience Hub at the Aria. Come on by, there's no wait for drinks over here. We're excited to jump into, really not necessarily the tech, but a lot of the process behind the tech. We've got first-time CUBE guest, Tolga Tarhan. He's the CTO of Onika, welcome. Thank you. And with him, Jeremy Bendad, he's the director of business development partnerships. Welcome. Thank you, sir. So let's jump into what does Onika do before we kind of get into the details. Okay, go ahead. Onika is what's called an Amazon Premier Consulting Partner. So all we do is help customers embrace, become educated, and become empowered on top of AWS. So we work primarily with enterprise customers across North America. We have offices both in the United States and in Canada, and we're really excited to be here today. And how big is the company, how long you've been around? We've about 300 people. We've been doing AWS for approximately six years, but collectively across our team, it probably goes to 1,000 years of experience. Probably. So there's so much kind of fun out there about rent versus buy, and do Amazon used to be security, but I think we've heard now security's actually more of a tailwind than a headwind for Amazon. So let's break it down. First off, clearly Amazon is doing well. There's a lot of companies built their business on this platform. You guys have as well. What are some of the things when you first engage with a customer that's just kind of AWS 101, how they need to think about this differently than what they've been buying and racking and stacking in their data center? So the model's different, and it's important to not think of AWS as a data center. It's important to embrace the cloud for the cloud. And so there's a pretty common saying about pets versus cattle. And I want to break that down just a little bit. So you've got pets that you love and you care for them, and you've got cattle that are for a purpose. You raise them and then you use them for milk or food. And in the cloud, we want that ladder model. We want to be able to spin up an instance, do something and have it go away when we're done, and then be responsive to our demand. Now this isn't, I'm not the first one saying this idea on camera, but I think the interesting thing to consider is the evolution. So we went from physical hardware in our data centers to virtual machines in our data centers. And at that leap, we got higher capacity. We could pack more VMs onto one physical server than we could in the physical world. And we also got some benefits about reliability and ease of configuration. Then we went to the cloud of those VMs and we got cost benefits. We got performance benefits. We got scale benefits. And now in the last couple of years, we've gone from that to containers in the cloud. And now we're getting even higher density, even more flexible deployments, even quicker scale up times. And then the last piece of this that's the newest is now we're going to serverless, where we're not even managing the operating system or any of the details behind it. It's just all event driven. So that evolution, you don't have to go to the end. It's a journey, but it's important to sort of buy into that journey on your way to the cloud and not just think of it as a place to park some VMs. I would imagine for a lot of people it's really hard to change their behavior, not to forward buy additional capacity and to actually turn things off when they're not being used. I mean, that's not what they've been doing throughout their careers in kind of traditional IT. And that's why we want to talk about those types of things on day one, that security conversation, that optimization conversation, just overall automation of the environment. That conversation is happening the very first time we sit down with a customer, typically. Because it's something that we want them to embrace and start off with good habits when it comes to not only how they're going to use the cloud, but how they should not use the cloud. Right. Because I think a lot of them, they just leave it on, right? I went to a great session. It was a little application, right? Because I like when people turn us off on the weekend and I'm not making revenue because they don't need us, right? It's a high capacity kind of end of the month, you know, kind of run job piece of software. And it's so counterintuitive, but it's really establishing a different type of relationship than you had before. That's right. It's that sort of, it's a friendly consumption model, right? Use what you need, pay for what you use, no long-term lock in. And that applies, I think, not just to AWS, but to the ecosystem they've built. So now you're seeing SaaS vendors, you're seeing partner ecosystem folks adopt that same model. Right, clearly, 60,000 plus whatever here. So a whole lot of Amazon people, but a whole lot of ecosystem people. So when you approach a customer and they're starting this journey, well, first off, how many of your customers are just kind of getting started and they're smart enough to know I need to go to a pro versus how many who got started and unfortunately left the lights on and the Amazon bill was coming in. Wait, wait, wait, you know, this is not what I expected. I'm not being able to manage it. What's kind of the shift of the customers that we'll get into each one? We see a really healthy mix across the board. We've had the opportunity to work with startups that have been purchased for over a billion dollars. We've also had the opportunity to work with traditional enterprise shops where it's their very first cloud project and they want to make sure they're setting things up the right way. And what we find is that we'll actually do something that's incredibly advanced for them, doing a serverless project, for example, and that then becomes the referenceable architecture for all future innovative projects that they end up doing. So because of that spread, we see this incredibly wide spread of different projects, different types of customer challenges, and we're able to collectively take that experience and then help individual customers embrace their specific challenges and point them in the right direction and help accelerate that. Yeah, on that note, it's cloud adoption isn't like a one track journey. Not every company should adopt it the same way. I think the unique value that experienced partners bring to the ecosystem is helping customers find the right path for them, not shoving them into the one path that we know. And how many of them graphs would be, do most of them come in really on the cost-saving side? They see an opportunity to be more efficient in their spend on infrastructure, or how many of them are coming in saying, I see really speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, speed, and this is an innovation engine. Oh, by the way, hopefully I'll save a few bucks versus running a 50% utilization on my data center. I think it's all the above. All the above? It's all the above. Everyone wants speed and they also want to do it cheaply. And that's why they come to us. And that's why the ecosystem for partners is actually so big, is because they know that there's a better way of doing things and through that collective experience that we bring or that companies on the marketplace bring, they know they're going to jumpstart that initiative and end up doing it the right way. Yeah, another big thing I think, probably you guys are making good hay on this opportunity, but you know Andy's going to stand up on Thursday and he's going to speak for a couple hours and he's going to have some mega slides, right? He has those mega slides. He's going to have a mega slide about startups that are running on AWS. He's going to have a mega slide about enterprises that are running on AWS. And then he's going to have the mega, mega slide. Lord knows how many new services they're going to introduce with just this sea of services. And I always look for S3. Like where is the little S3 logo on this slide? From a consumption point of view, from a customer point of view, yes, it's great to have options and yes, there's probably a service that can satisfy my need, but how am I supposed to know where to go?  Yeah, I think most customers understand the basics now. Like most customers understand how to do compute on AWS at least at a starting point. But you're right, there's a hundred other services that look and feel like they could help you. And our job as partners is to help you identify the right ones for your requirements. The flexibility that AWS provides is part of the value, but it also means you have to be responsible and educated about how to use it. Right, what's the biggest just foil 101? Like you know they're all going to step into it, they all do it when people are just kind of getting started on this journey.  The amount of times we've seen that, just because you do pay for what you use. Right. And so we want to make sure that we're starting off with good habits and we're building in that automation to turn things off if they're not being used. Or that we have those guardrails built in for a customer that, hey, is enabling access for a team of people that haven't had access to their own infrastructure previously. Right. Yeah, it's that whole DevOps mentality. So go into your cloud journey with a DevOps mindset. I know that word has become complicated, but what I mean by that is think about how you're going to automate deployments. Think about how you're going to deliver code from wherever it comes to production in an automated way, early in the process. Because if you spin up a giant environment kind of manually and haphazardly, that's when this kind of cost runaway stuff starts to show its ugly head. So we're here in the marketplace and service catalog area here at the ARIA. So I'm just curious to get your take on working with Amazon as a partner. And you guys are different than maybe some of the solution providers or some of the component software people that we've been talking to earlier in the day. But as a services company, how are they to work with, how do you guys play with the marketplace? And I imagine the service catalog is probably a big way that you deliver your services to your clients is to teach them how to manage that thing. Absolutely. So we recently became one of the launch partners that's on the consulting side that's able to not only recommend but also resell products from the AWS marketplace. And so what that means is we actually get early access or sometimes even private pricing access to marketplace items and can then offer those to our customers to help accelerate their initiatives. One of the cool things that we've done is we've actually set up direct partnerships with some of the SaaS providers that offer their services on marketplace to help to strategically drop in or offer that within a service catalog to our end customers. So they win because of price. They also win because we've helped to vet some of those products and we're helping to a lot of the times accelerate that initiative. Yeah, there's also the actual SaaS providers themselves. So those are actually customers we work with a lot as well. They need to integrate their SaaS products with the marketplace APIs. But when they do that, they get access to the purchasing base of AWS. And all of a sudden, Amazon customers can buy from you with no contracts, no legal paperwork needed. It's already covered by their Amazon agreement. So enabling that and taking your SaaS product and offering it for sale on marketplace is another big area that we help customers. And that's kind of the ugly back end stuff that they got to work on, right? All that kind of administration, which is really what that service catalog is all about actually not just talking about it, but deploying it at scale. That's right. That's the last track, that procurement cycle that you would otherwise have to go through all those legal docs. So if we can, at the click of a button, enable one of our customers to adopt the product or even POC it in a very short period of time and turn it off. Again, pay as you go model, the marketplace opens up a ton of doors for these customers. Just pay as you go. Just pay for what you use. Don't leave the lights on. Can be very expensive. Well, Jeremy Tolget, thanks for taking a few minutes of your day and have a great show. I'm sure leave extra time to get to wherever you're next. Thank you. Thank you. We can't thank you enough for being here and we're so excited for re-invent 2018. Yeah, thanks a lot. Thanks. All right, he's Tolget. He's Jeremy. I'm Jeff. You're watching theCUBE. We are at the AWS marketplace and service catalog experience here at the ARIA. Thanks for watching.


Hi everyone and welcome to the Stock Swoosh Play of the Day video. This is Paul Lange and this is presented by thestockswoosh.com. This is for June 1, 2016. We actually had two Play of the Days today. These were actually Melissa's plays in the room shortly after open. This play that's being highlighted on this video is ASNA ANSA. The stock this particular morning on the daily chart you're looking at, gap to here. By the way, this chart you're looking at is an e-signal chart. Beautiful charts and the daily chart here on ASNA gap down to right there. That's where it gap to open. A lot of these plays that we look at, they are surges that happen because of powerful money coming into a stock that needs to make decisions and a lot of these plays have huge moves during the first 30 minutes of the day which is what we focus on. A lot of these plays don't necessarily follow through because of the pattern on the daily chart. This ASNA fell very sharply as you will see here on the one-minute chart but then this is quickly rebounded. We don't care about that because what we're interested in is in that very sharp decline that occurred that you see going right through there. The play actually had two entries. The second play reduced the stops.  Notice that all happened before 945. Entries up in that area and that kind of a drop all during that 10-15 minute period. If you're interested in learning how to do plays like this, it's the Golden Gap Strategy, the Golden Gap Course that we teach. You can take the Golden Gap Course July 11th and 12th coming up and there's also a special offer that was a Memorial Day deal that is continuing through Friday. You can enjoy three months free in the Stock Swish Show Trading Room and three free mentoring sessions with Melissa when you sign up. Also, there's a 30% off of other products such as specialty courses, the Trading Room Options Letter and Mentorships with Melissa. Until next time, this is Paul for TheStockSwish.com. Good trading.


for a lot of experimentation. You know, we have examples of stencil art of various sorts that goes back like 35 millennia. You know, we have hand stencils, prehistoric hand stencils. We have stencil art depicting ancient machines from a galaxy far, far away. And you know, it really, it can be applied in so many different ways. This is a dimensional stencil piece that I did last year. And it's kind of, I like this because it's a little bit of a microcosm of design thinking and it represents what's fascinating about stencils, I think, in that the medium informs the aesthetic. I'm carving this directly into the pages of a book, right?   And so you have, you know, the rationale behind stencil type in this kind of experimental form.  It's kind of an answer to the question of how to reproduce letter forms quickly and easily and accurately. You have them on, you know, vehicle fleets. This is from Kirby Stafford, a sign painter from Kentucky. You know, the Phoenix Motor Speedway. Some interesting forms in here, even as simplistic as it is, like the W, the R and extra bridges. You see it often used in Asia to mark taxi fleets. This is a photo from Ben Mitchell with some Thai and some Latin, you know, that was used to represent a taxi co-op. This one, I snapped actually in Uptown just east of here. And so I had to include it, you know, being local. You can see the vinyl lettering has shrunken and fallen off. And if you look really closely, that you can see that the C is beginning to shrink a little as well. It might be falling off pretty soon. These are from, you know, Dins stencils. It's like a veritable celebration of functionality. You know, these are from a stencil catalog from the 1930s.  So yes, please, I'm going to include this anyway. More Dins stencils. Yeah, not my toes. These are some stencils from the French, the French Metro. Again, it's like, you know, you have signage, you're punching forms out of metal. And so it's a very utilitarian mindset that brings you to this particular conclusion. But you know, you can still make it pretty interesting, you know, unusual forms. This one, I really love the vernacular. In this one, I'm really crushing on that one. Sorry, you can boo, that was awful. That was really awful. I'm sorry, I won't do that again. But yeah, I mean just the forms, the vernacular there that really shows up, the breaks make it very visually interesting. And the forms are just like this odd contrast of the super heavy and then the absences of space within the letter form. You get a lot of interesting signage with stencils when you're mixing strips. One major benefit to this is that the person who is creating the sign doesn't have to read or write all of these scripts.  So you have some tamil, some Chinese Latin. This one, I really like this one, snapped by John Pinhorn. You have this really chubby, chubby tamil. I really like the weight in here. And the textural quality of the forms, you know, it's paired with a very, kind of a condensed tamil and then some Latin in there. Thanks John for the image. Another one, this one was snapped by Shiva on a train. I really liked this one because it really breaks up the forms to a point where, you know, you can't really read them very well, particularly the Hindi. I really like also the number of bridges. You see a lot of bridges in the O, you know, the A, obviously no crossbar. It's kind of a textural thing. You can also see some camera movement in the photo, which means that we know that Shiva was following the rules and not using the toilet when the train was stopped. So yeah, good points there. Yeah, some more mixed scripts from John Pinhorn again. You know, again with a lot of bridges, making things, you know, virtually unreadable, but resulting in a very interesting textural quality with the forms, the number of bridges. The A, I really like the crossbar of the A here, the solution they worked it in there. I would be remiss not to include a Dwiggins stencil, right? I mean, no talkative kind of is complete without a mention of Dwiggins. This is his postmaster stencil. This is his modular stencil that, you know, can create the alphabet using a variety of, you know, little fractions of letter forms. Thanks for the image letter form archive. This is actually from the book by Dorothy Abbey on his illustrative stencils that is being republished later this year from the Princeton University Press. So I definitely recommend checking that out, mostly illustrations, but some type in here as well. Yeah, some more fun stencils with some tie that Ben Mitchell snapped here. Just really interesting forms. Interesting to see stencils used as a practical solution here. More tie. I really like the rounded forms and the various sizes. These are some stencils from Corey Holmes, and I thought I'd include them because his, a little quote that he had when he released these really kind of embodies, I think, what's attractive about and interesting about stencils to us.  But it is, you know, the modular, you know, mirroring LED matrices. I'm gonna read his quote here. It's kind of humorous, but it really embodies it, and I quote, I really like the idea of introducing stencils into the market just at the point that they have absolutely no use or meaning anymore. So it's like, there's a sense in which stencils are ephemeral at this point. You know, there's something of an acrysm. But, you know, they may be anachronistic, but we don't abandon them because there's value in experimentation to be found there. So these have been primarily function-based, but then, you know, sometimes you can prioritize form and use the opportunity that this affords to explore. You know, you can take generally, this is densiletta from Delphans, you can take generally traditional forms and then take advantage of, you know, the unusual vertical rhythm to, you know, with the layers, the diagonal bridges. This one's from Shiva as well. Enemy, it's kind of a militaristic style, but obviously it abstracts it a little bit. You know, really chunky forms. Does something fun with what could be a fairly traditional vibe. This one, of course, you know, a revival of the berry typefaces that are like a really early example of people doing a lot of really crazy stuff with stencils that come from a very, very functional background. But then, you know, you can obviously turn it into something that's really beautifully complex. This is from our type. I really like this pair of stencils from Gareth Hague. This one, I really like the heavy ball terminals. You know, it's kind of a modular system here that you can take these very simple shapes that combine to make the entire alphabet, really. And, you know, obviously punctuation and everything, but it really abstracts it. Gareth has quite a talent for abstracting things and making, you know, really weird forms that still make sense. And I really like that about this. Of course, this is what I set the title slide in. Beautiful type. And then his as yet unreleased anodyne, which, again, it's a fairly traditional form, but he takes the idea of removing parts of the basic letter form and plays with it, you know, creating some very unusual bridges, odd angles, things that just break up the pattern a little bit and make it, well, it's a fairly traditional form if you step back. If you look a little closely, it's very intriguing and there's a lot to look at there. This one I got from the Lublin archive. Here it's a shot of a candy box. This is actually not a true stencil style. You can see the closed loop in the B, but it was so finessed and beautiful I couldn't exclude it here. Just lovely stencil style work inspired by stencils, but not a literal stencil by Charles Dean for a candy box. This one, I really love the abstraction that you can get into when you're breaking up the Latin forms like this.  I should have colored it orange, but this is from Mika Melvis and he does some great work and he was playing with the forms here to the point where if you actually remove some of the forms, it becomes like, a lot of people wouldn't recognize these as letter forms, as Latin forms. I mean, most of the people in this room probably will, but it's just, you know, the abstraction that you can get into really playing up the differences and removing parts of the form to create really interesting visual patterns. This one, I really enjoy the experimental work of Bart Bollebrandt. I don't know if you're familiar with his work or not, but he let me use these images as long as I made it clear that they were still works in progress. Yeah, there are a couple of one word experiments where he's actually building the forms around the breaks as opposed to, you know, taking a standard form and then removing part. You know, it's really an unconventional approach. I really like the approach on the breathe there on the left. This one, this one I really love. This is pretty brilliant, I think. This is from Ruegan Johnson. It's also an in progress typeface, very limited carousel set as of yet. It was inspired by Nebulo's Landi Echo. So the form within a form, you know, that's kind of blocking out portions of the other form. And Landi Echo is actually not a stencil form, but of course the extrapolation of this concept turns it into a very, very fragmented form. You're really just hinting at the Latin form at this point, just these fragments, splinters almost. And I'm excited to see where this goes. I think there's a lot of potential here that's just really beautiful and very, I don't know, kind of subtly evokes language. More from Bart, I really like this one. It's kind of like, I don't know if you've noticed, it's basically a type cooker experiment. It's like the trifecta of interesting quirks. You have a backslant, a stencil, and reverse weight. And he actually turned it into real stencils, you can see he stenciled it into sand and some other things. It was meant to evoke landscapes. It's an interesting experimental project. And I think, I don't think he has capitals for this yet. Thanks to Bart for letting me use this image. Another one from Bart, I really love this one. I think with some open type wizardry, this can make a really incredible typeface. Again, the trifecta of quirks. Just the connector is the various portions of the letter form that are so abstracted that a lot of people would not be able to read this. But it's really fascinating when you put it all together and it becomes readable. You step away and it's, I don't know, fascinating stuff. I'd love to see this expanded on in the future. Some more textural stuff. This is from Erin McLaughlin, a photo of some really fragmented Urdu. She snapped on the side of a bus. I really like this because, of course, I don't read Urdu, but it creates a very interesting visual pattern. It's the kind of thing where you can appreciate the aesthetic. And I think this would be difficult to read even for an Urdu speaker or reader. But it's just, I really like the textural quality. Again, the broken forms. What you see with kind of abstracting it unintentionally in this case. More, another photo from Ben Mitchell. This is some Burmese punched into metal. Obviously, this is, again, from a functional standpoint where you're actually punching it into the metal requires a stencil approach. But it's really kind of playing up the stencils and the patterns. Very visually interesting, even for those of us that don't read Burmese. This one, this one I added in at the last minute. My friend, Danielle Evans, did this just this week to promote a workshop she did. It reads hashtag WMC word play. Again, so I snuck this in at the last minute. And I thought this was really interesting because it's not actually stenciled, but you have the various layers of abstraction because you're working with an interesting medium. The stencil forms, omitting portions of the form, obviously it's very visually interesting. You have to look at it a couple of times to read it. And of course the colorful background, the diagonal. A lot of fun to be had there. And it's not actually stenciled, but just formed that way. Kind of shades of bifur maybe. And you thought layered fonts were just trending now, right? This is from 29, just beautiful stuff. But what I really love about this piece in particular is that it represents what stencil styles have become. They're no longer a functional thing. They're primarily for just the interest we can find in the stenciled forms, removing the Latin, portions of the Latin form or not in Latin's. And it's like you're abstracting, you're experimenting. And it really is word play. It's fun stuff. You can have so much fun with stencil forms. So I guess I just encourage everyone to embrace what's between the lines. Build around what's not there, build around what's implied, what's abstracted. And have fun. Thank you.


Intersectional stigma refers to the convergence of multiple stigmatized identities within a person or group, which can have negative effects on their health and well-being. While race, class, and gender are often used as historical and theoretical bases for intersectional stigma, there is little consensus on how best to characterize and analyze this phenomenon. This paper highlights existing literature on intersectional stigma, identifies gaps in our methods for studying it, provides examples of promising analytical approaches, and elucidates priorities for future health research. The evidence suggests that people experience intersecting forms of stigma that influence their mental and physical health and corresponding behaviors. Qualitative, quantitative, and mixed methods approaches are needed to better understand the mechanisms and effects of intersectional stigma in relation to various health conditions around the globe. Healthcare providers, public health officials, and advocates need to develop instruments and methods to design effective interventions that capitalize on shared identity while reducing the burden of stigma. We are article.tv, links in the description below.


So Gregory a lot of people in recent weeks have been celebrating what is seen as the kind of end or at least the ebbing of Mexican migration and you wrote a great column and what I mean by that of course There's all the data that showing that the flow across the river and across the border I should say peaked in 2007 and the numbers of you know illegal crossings is down the number of the Undocumented population in the US is starting to to come down and that would be expected giving the recession. It would be expected given You know tightened enforcement and also the demographic shift in Mexico But I want to ask you it was very interesting to see to read a column that you wrote this week where you were kind of celebrating this in a way for very personal different reasons where you were talking about how you know the Migration story has affected you in the last couple decades and talk a little bit about what you wrote in the LA Times I What I'm what I've always been concerned with and my interest in migration and my interest in Mexican migration in particular Was how it would affect the US culture how to affect California culture and I never really wrote about it And I wrote about it this week as you're referring to is the extent to which it actually affects me personally because I my family Is of Mexican origin, but we've been here You know different grandparents came at different times, but the great-grandfather my father's side came in 1890 So we my father then was born in Los Angeles. My mother was born in San Diego. I was born in Los Angeles So I'm a long timer. I'm a sort of a suburban California Southern California And so what I what I look back on was the extent to which Mexican migration then Because of the way Well, I'll start simple that how it is that framed my identity Both internally and externally how how people assumed who I was and what the what the what the meaning of Hispanic or Latino or Mexican meant Over time since I was a kid Right. I mean, you know We collaborated together at the LA Times and I lived out there for three years And it's true that of all the people I met in LA Your family roots there probably traced back further than probably anybody else I I met and any other friend I had in LA and yet I mean what you point out in your in your column this week is people always look to you to speak for The Mexicans who showed up yesterday, right? So there was this presumption so that despite my rooted because of my ethnicity There was this presumption of newness. There was a presumption of foreignness Um, and it's not the worst thing in the world, but it's something that I've had to battle with you out I've had editors. I've worked with for years was suddenly I have to have written about LA politics or American demographics Will turn to me and ask me to write about Hugo Chavez, but I'm nothing About I've never been to Venezuela But but there was there was this presumption of I mean one of the things I always say quite bluntly In American intellectual life and beyond if you're white you can be an individual if you're not you are You're immediately presumed to be a representative of a group a standard bear a spokesman and I am I'm a I'm a grouchy Sort of often rude Irrassable sort of guy. I don't I don't I don't really get along with most people and suddenly I found myself on a position of speaking for people and and since I always had to I always it became sort of a burden at the same time I'm trying to be honest about it. It became a job opportunity. It was the marketplace open I mean, I was going I had gotten into Harvard Divinity School I wanted to be a theologian believe it or not and this demographic moment was happening and I came back to LA to work with a medical sociologist who was working on Mexico literally health data and Mexican immigration what it was doing He found that he essentially found that in the early 90s that the poorest group of women in California We're having the healthiest birth outcome or at the poorest group of men in California living longer And so I came to California to study what this would do to California culture So I got I think I got lost where I was going but but in essence I suddenly I Suddenly found myself in a position where these paper editors were looking to like why can't you make sense of this for me? It's an annoying level. It's fair because I as a Mexican-American. I have had a long time But I'm not Mexican and so I was actually interpreting something that was sort of affected me somehow I identified with I didn't I didn't entirely not identify identify with it, but I wasn't of it When you were saying you're grouchy, I kept looking at the coyote over your shoulder You know, I grew up in in Mexico as you know and the relationship between Mexicans and the diaspora here Mexican-Americans and Chicanos Is both a complicated one it, but I feel like it's also one that's changed a lot over time I mean, what's what's your sense of that and how do you when you go to Mexico has your sense of Identification with this country from which your ancestors came has that relationship changed as the border became more porous as more Mexicans moved in to LA. How's that dynamic changed over time? Absolutely. It's changed tremendous when when when For 30 40 years ago Mexican-Americans could often find themselves about being being none of the above Anglo didn't see you was fully American and Mexicans didn't see you back, right? So met an American is on some fundamental and that's really part of me is this net Being part of need a group and that's why I identify with the coyote behind me Ultimate can go anywhere and survive you see the piece in the New York Times about ten coyotes in Golden Gate Park last month I loved it.  Well, that's that complicates my definition anyways So over time though Mexican began that sort of there was this sense that that Through the the derogatory to import show this which is, you know, it translates as a sort of watered-down Mexican In essence, there was this notion that I mean we the those who left were an embarrassment I'm in the early 20th century something like 10% of Mexico had left North so we were the living embodiment of Mexico's failure on some level and Mexicans both of both of both nationally on a national official level and On a personal family level this happened what this happens with all sorts of migration We'll have misgivings about those who left home and may have done better And so there was a little bit of jealousy. There was tension and there was a sense Well, well, you may have gone to the United States you gain certain things But you have you you just clearly lost culture or soldier culture, but the last 20 years That's that's the choice of teams have changed and there's been a warmth in fact and I can go to Mexico now And in essence, um, there is not this great distance There's not this presumed distance between Mexicans and Mexican Americans that there had been there's there's because Polls seem to show that there's so many Mexicans have family and friends in the United States That it's almost normalized the image of the Mexican American in Mexican I think that's right. I mean, I think the political changes in Mexico the opening and the sort of greater democracy meant that Mexican the Mexican government could no longer had to be in denial about its citizenry in the United States They saw it as an economic opportunity Vicente Fox when he became president really capitalized on this and in fact the opposition to the PRI which ruled Mexico for 70 years always saw the Mexican Americans on this side of the border as potential allies and the pre was naturally nervous about them So it's kind of natural that that would shift things. I also think it's interesting how these personal connections have Served to soften. I think how Mexicans see the US and there's there's been a a significant lessening of anti-americanism in Mexican society generally And I think it's because as you said every every family or every person has a friend or a relative who's gone Who goes back and forth and so the you know, the behemoth the Embedio to the north starts looking very differently as its experience if not firsthand through the experiences of your of your primo or your you know Your your parent that's sending you remittances and so forth. So it's it's pretty interesting that shift What about? So here you are I mean on one hand you kind of resent the quickness with which newspaper editors over time or others You know put this label on you and expect you to be sort of the expert on all things immigration and all things happening you know between you know, Tijuana and Argentina because you're the Latin guy But to what extent do you really do you feel that? You should be a voice for Mexico in the US and that part of You know the community even as it has assimilated in the US whether it's over You know three or four generations as in your case or whether it's people who are just going through the process of naturalizing as you US citizens to what extent should they be a voice for You know a stronger engagement with Mexico from the US perspective or better relations or I mean We see this dynamic play itself out for obviously for very different in different ways and for different reasons with like Cuban Americans Who remain very much engaged with what's happening back in Cuba? you see it with the Armenian community in Los Angeles and because that border was was pretty Tight in some ways in the previous generations with Mexico that hasn't quite occurred I mean do you feel it like you need to sort of be a voice for a different approach to Mexico and for more Greater priority being placed on this relationship or is that is that again sort of insulting to you for me to even suggest that? No, it's not insulting at all. I just said I the only it's not insulting It's just that I don't believe anybody should be obliged to be anything I think that that's just against just my better my judgment about humans I you know, I don't think every woman who walks should speak to me on behalf of all women I mean that that's it. There's a product for that's not about ethnicity. This is about I I'm I just I believe in everybody just being having the right and the joy to speak for themselves or but My my attitudes toward Mexican the role of Mexico officially is Informed by my knowledge of Mexican's interaction with Mexican American official Mexico It's been a complicated one Mexico healthy United States a deport the millions of men rather repatriate rather fortunately And during the depression Mexico is not necessarily been a friend of it's diaspora of its expatriates for for most of it Most of our history and I'm saying when you know when the US was kicking out Mexican The the Mexico saw it as a great change in their economy to have these people who are trained in the exterior and then to be Incorporated into the economy back home. But so I just What I've resented over time was the extent to which news media has gone to Mexico to speak for the millions and tens of million People who've left right. I mean, you know, I've resented, you know, the Los Angeles Times asking the former foreign minister of Mexico To speak for And then this is like this is also a class racial to speak for the you know The people the people who are made in Los Angeles There's a disconnect and so what's interesting about the relationship is the extent to what these people become state Is this netherworld that Mexican migrants and the expatriate is seen to inhabit? And I think the way Washington look at it It looks like a very that's official like these people they left here, right the rubbers at the homeland Yeah, I think it's more important in the end I don't know if I've answered your question that the people be integrated as successfully as possible into their new plan Good well that that segues into my one thing. I just kind of want to get your take on if if there's a sense that You know, there's a period now of consolidation This previous bulge of migration if indeed the numbers have peaked and we are seeing a decrease in the crossings Do you see this as a as a period of time when society can sort of assimilate that that Fervid, you know pace of immigration in the 90s and early in the last decade I mean you you I mean some of the studies that came out in the last week or so from the census data And I think some of this was in your column to Contrast the number of native born Latinos in LA in 1970 with You know more recent years where it's just really The proportions really got out of whack in terms of the the percentages of Latinos who were born in the States versus not Do you think that this will be having a pause? To these levels if not an end to these levels of migration Are are going to have a positive kind of effect in terms of social cohesion You are the director after all of the social center for social cohesion. So I should ask you this and an assimilation or Well, I assimilation had always occurred. It does the assimilation doesn't require Immigration to stop it. I mean that that's another subject But it will it my wins did adapt and always adapt to the new land as they saw fit in a very simple sense to make this would be able to negotiate their lives better for themselves But adaptations and language acquisition all sorts of behavioral changes happened naturally over time and Whether the height of migration may have allowed people to to maintain Old-world networks or Homeland tastes more than they did but it didn't really impede fundamentally assimilation over time But but it will do it's not about the assimilation factor. It's about society Reweaving its network. It's or not reweaving recreating them Right, it's a Mexican migrant or the child of Mexican migrant and the child of Korean migrants the child of Thai migrants creating a new community and it's about it's about rootedness right now in the the midterm Electrical Los Angeles had a pretty like 11% turn out This is striking. We live in a very fluid city I want to construct me living in Koreatown in Los Angeles that once I was trying to write something about what with the neighborhood was like in 1970 I could not find a person who would hear So I mean and this is a beauty and wonder and dynamism of Los Angeles I want to make sure that I point out the fact that we're gonna lose some the immigration creeps economic and cultural Vitality and we're gonna lose some of that. We are gonna become more of a state society. There's no doubt about it We're gonna have shittier, right? Excuse me. I think tanks But but the point is and so there is there's something lost there's this this collision and convergence of Negation the taste of culture that attitudes of religion is a wonderful thing And I you know port cities are great and we were a port city But that's not just a one great event I'm saying we're transitioning a new time which we should all should make great Which is the time of rudeness and a place where we share a heritage, which is in my case, Los Angeles, right, right? So to answer your question, it's a very important to social cohesion. Yeah, I mean we got to get we The caveat is we really did get along better than anyone gave us credit for but I think but we weren't rooted in a sense of And taking care of our own community, right? so just to connect this story which was sort of the big demographic story of a couple weeks ago that the data that showed that Immigration from Mexico is decreasing to connect that to the big news the big demographic news of this week, which is Census data showing that last year You know non-Hispanic White births accounted for less than 50% For the first time in the US and that's getting a lot of buzz Today and this week So if we're gonna have fewer Mexican immigrants and We're having fewer non-Hispanic white babies. Are we just gonna run out of people someday or what's the the trend the Threadline between these two stories Well, I I do think at some point we will be looking elsewhere for migration. That's another story Which I'm not I'm not in a place to really talk about it at this point But I do think the I think the story We've seen this we've heard this drum beat for 20 years and it may be national but in California We saw this drum beat every other week the Los Angeles time Latino babies or Latino whatever it was Latino students Latino, whatever and To some extent it's overblown because it's kind of irrelevant on some level. I mean the whites whites becoming a minority is irrelevant Yeah, I mean we saw this and what happens if California is any You have this frenzy of concern the significance is over It's over But ultimately what you have in front of you have a population that like no matter if it's you know zebra You have a population you have to educate that you hope is healthy that you hope it's trained If you hope can sustain the tax base that you hope again, you know can Can fight war as you can right that creates wealth and that it's a really a distraction But so why I mean we can stipulate all that but then why is why the anxiety or why the titillation in the media over this Is it at essence there is there is a racial aspect and it's not probably not a pretty one It's this presumption that people are over time. We used it. I would say We had a more sophisticated view of ethnicity at some point It's max alley a jingle and people Change over time and a cult rate and from different places at a certain point in the late 20th century We started looking we started seeing ethnicity in terms of race and race has always been seen as biologically unmovable And this tied into multicultural this notion that that people don't change over time Oh, they don't change over time or that they shouldn't change over time But the fact of the matter is they do You know when I went to Berkeley in the 80s and a lot of stupid things were sad and I was a joke Like you're against the stimulation has been against it's like being against hurricane like great, right? You know, I mean again, so so this notion is we have this static view of culture that somehow the Latinos I mean the way I look at it is like in 1910 Could a Hungarian Jewish rabbi have ever like imagined we get You know could an Italian migrant in the tournament in 1898 have imagined Dean Martin the point is this is still This is still in there. It's time to stay right still one of the vital culture Not the most in the world and then people are churned and and ideally if they're going to take advantage of the wonders of the country They will make of their ethnicity What in ways that we can't even imagine so I think I think it's this notion that people's Hispanicity of this fixed element that goes over time and that you know, they're going to be drinking, you know eating out of margaritas out of baby bottles some in 2016 but I think it I think it's a much more dynamic picture than that, right? I thought you'd get I thought I'd get a laugh from that one But I guess you got it you got a little chuckle here, but I'm trying to be you know restrained because I'm in Washington You're the one in LA


The reality is amazingly real here to talk to us about that. Here on think tech tech talks is Tom Leyland, Tom and I go back to the 1920s, my right. When he was when he was a programmer here in Honolulu, and he taught me a lot of stuff got me excited about programming, and I still have today so I, I carry the benefit of our conversations from way back when Tom thank you for joining the show. Thank you very much for having me. So what happened. You've had a career of programming your program for big and little and this and that give us a handle on that with. Yeah, I had my own company for a long, long, long time so I was programming really quickly about 40 years, and I had my own company for 20 something of those and then I opted to be an employee at large firms, a little less risky. But generally at one point I said that's fine. I'm a little tired now, and I still program, but I program, whatever I feel like programming for me I don't have to okay it with anyone. So what do you do what do you do with it do you sell it or keep it or give it to your friends. I play it's. There's a thing called a discord bot there's web services there's any number of little tool things that you can build websites even stuff like that. And then VR development is a complete in in world kind of a thing so you're building worlds with anything vehicles in there you can drive around all that stuff. So let's move to that let's move to VR because that's what we're going to talk about and that's certainly to my estimation that's your passion these days you're invested in that. And I want to know why I want to know how. Okay. Oh well I'll tell you the why it in my estimation it's the early days and if you recall the early days of computers and I think you do say the late 70s early 80s. People left and right who said well what are you going to do with that you know, you can't do anything fun. Well, virtual reality is sort of in that ballpark right now it's affordable, but still a lot of people don't know what to do with it. But I keep asking everybody to think 20 or 30 years ago did you think you would have a cell phone that's as powerful as a great computer sitting in your pocket. And that's the kind of thing that VR will do to become lighter and lighter less expense well more bang for the buck would be the better way to say, and then a more capable of doing more and more, more things. So, you need a headset for it when you always need a headset for it. You'll always need some sort of a headset and we'll see if I can show this I don't know look again. This is called a quest to, and there's any number of them, some big players by the way and I think more coming HP is into an HTC company called Pimax Microsoft obviously. And basically they're running two types there's a consumer type which is what quest is doing. And then there's professional ones and the quest goes for about $300 the professional ones can be $12,000 they can be $5,000 but incredible resolution but not the average person is going to be using those. So, so I put one of these headsets on. Yeah, and it and I can't see anything outside the headset. I'm invested. You know, my, my vision is the headset. And, okay, then I can walk around. If I move it knows I'm moving if I turn my head. It knows I'm turning my head. I'm living in the world of virtual reality. And I can probably walk right into a wall and hurt myself that way. Definitely swing your arm into a wall that's going to happen. It's really three dimensional. And it's interactive. Yeah, we use the term immersive. I mean it's it's actually almost hyper three dimensional I mean you're literally in this immersed world. And just to clarify one thing there is a thing called AR and VR and virtual reality is completely virtual. There's more of adding stuff to it so you would be looking through your glass and seeing the real world and then it's accessorizing that with additional information. And they have two different uses corporations you can imagine of really quickly somebody working on say a car engine, being able to see the actual car engine but then looking up in the corner of his eye and seeing a diagram of the stuff he's supposed to be seeing so there's there's that and there's something now they call mixed reality and as well but virtual reality yes is a complete manufactured world. Well on that thing about AR for a moment. I remember this is this is probably 20 years ago but I remember a fellow had a little thing is like it hung down on the top of your glasses, and you could see the diagram of the car and whatever. It was essentially a browser it was a monitor in a browser, and you can see things that it would help you do whatever you wanted to do and it actually your computer was attached to your belt, and so forth. So if you have an AR rather than a VR situation. That's on the, you know, hardware side that's pretty easy to achieve. So you can have that in a business setting in a design setting in G I can think of a million settings where you would want to have your, your friend on your glasses, giving you advice, you know, being essentially essentially a 24 by seven Google thing, where you can look up, you know any question and, and that will assist you as your best friend in life. Is that coming. I believe it is and I think I mean I don't use it much so I really don't know but I believe it's under development right now certainly large corporations have those kinds of things available to them. But it's a kind of a rarefied air. Most of us don't work on aircraft engines and stuff like that so we're not going to need that kind of stuff as much as we are there to have fun. And the fun is that total immersion thing where you are literally on a spaceship, or, and you're flying it. I mean that's how real it is you're literally flying upside down. Microsoft as an example has a flight simulator now that flies in real time. So you're not only flying a 747 but the time it takes from you to fly from New York to Paris is how long it would take in that 747. So, it's just, I mean just amazing in terms of simulation. So, you got involved in this because you were amazed by the reality of virtual reality. And that means as a programmer. You would want to create it, because you can't help yourself. And so you started creating it. How do you create virtual reality. The way to begin is to find an application that assists and those are typically called social apps, and there's any number of them. One of the biggest known ones is VR chat, though I caution people to not jump into VR chat and think that, oh, everybody is this crazy. They're not always that crazy. There's other ones called big screen Mozilla hubs the time alt space. I'm just dropping names here. One of the biggest players is in terms of pushing the envelope is Nios. I recommend anybody look for these people, but those apps allow you to drag and drop things you can spawn a sofa resize it, drop it there, put a light to make a light switch hook the light to the light switch. And that's how you just do that but that means you're using other people's things to build your world. The next step up is unity, and that's an application editor, and that allows you to build anything your mind can dream up. Oh my god. So you have to have the headset on when you do this or could you use that you know it's just an ordinary computer program and do it that way. You tend to do the final touches on the worlds that you design we call them worlds. You do that with the headset on or you very often put the headset on because you want to see that it still works correctly, similar to the way you debug software, but you do the majority of the design work on the PC, and you can rotate models and things like that while you're designing them. But that's just because you'll, it's just easier to do it on a computer. So let's talk about the potential on this. Well before we do that let's talk about what you're doing now in terms of designing the world, the virtual world. I would make a guess and say that you, you Tom have built the virtual world. You've taken assets you've created assets. You've made. I mean this is really enticing. You've made a world that you can live in. What do you do in the morning and enter this world. What is it like and what do you do in this world. Yeah, I'm, I'm going to qualify everything I say with I'm no expert, but I do have fun, and I try and push the envelope where I can. There are certainly people it's a, it's a slightly different than being a programmer it's more of a modeler. And so I think it's a little bit more of an artistic sense and not quite so much of a mathematics scientific endeavor. So I can create programmable things, but the artistic side that's still I kind of go grab somebody else's model and work from there. And that's the other nice thing about it you can actually grab models there are many of them are free or you can buy these assets as you mentioned, for in a relatively expensive go get a $20 castle or a car Chevrolet you want a 57 Chevy. And there it is. Change the color change the lights and drop it into your world. So yeah, and basically they create people create environments for meeting other people and that's one again one of the big pluses is that you invite people to your worlds and you can chat. In the world again I mentioned neos, you can literally interact so I can pick something up and hand it to somebody and they can save it and they can bring it back the following day. All of the assets are interchangeable and, you know, our sort of lives. It's, oh, so okay that's another dimension so you can put your headset on connected up to the internet. I can put my head set on. And we can engage wherever we are in the world. We can have a conversation we can do things together. We can. We can trade assets we can operate as I can take you for a ride in my in my in my Chevy. I can take you for a walk in my castle. I had a friend drive me find me in his helicopter. Yes, it's all doable. And again, this is tip of the iceberg so remember we're talking about 2022. Again, a couple of years where it's been. The price has been that everybody can get in it. Another five years we're going to be hard pressed to recognize it. And in 10, we didn't even dream that it was possible, what we're going to see. But I did want to mention a couple of things so that people don't think it's all just a social apps. One of the things is though is education. There's a lot of use in education. There's a lot of case of self learning and stuff because you can immerse yourself you can imagine that if you wanted to learn a foreign language you could drop in and either work with avatars things that are just not really people. But you're conversing with that person and it's a little different than talking into say your phone or an app which is nobody there. It's science and that's space medicine. There was actually an app with a full body you'll see a body show up. You can rotate it. You can strip off the skin, see the nerves, see the bones, zoom up zoom in all that kind of things. Fitness, strangely enough, is one of the things people get on and they're jogging or rowing in a virtual world. It's a lot of things like that and then just straight on entertainment. You can watch movies in there. So again, you have kind of three dimensional movies going on and stuff like that. So a lot of a lot of possibilities. Oh, and let me enter. I have a note. I just wanted to mention one thing if you think there's what's coming down in the future. They've already have haptic feedback. And so what that is basically is you have a vest on or something.  And somebody maybe if it's a shooting game, somebody shoots you and you feel a thud as it hits your chest. The possibilities are limitless. Let me let me let me track on some of those things. So, talk about another person who joins you now, this person who joins you say in the car or walking through the castle what have you. This is, does this person have the face of the individual you're connected with in Bolivia, or is it an avatar and what's the difference and what's preferable. Very, that's a really, really good question. It's all avatars, and it depends on the game, everything called the games or the app. What level of avatar you have some have full body avatar so your arms, legs, head, everything's there and moves. You can do that. Some are just upper body. And that's for instance, some all space you don't have any legs and all space they don't figure you need legs, but you have hands. They're almost always customizable. And I would say generally, there's two giant three maybe categories there are humanoid like looking ones.  I had some photos of one of me, but you can make as many avatars as you want. And then they have the other ones as a whole group of furries, and there's a group of say robots and stuff like that. And so they are whatever their imagination imagines them to be even size you don't have to be human human size I know one guy in Nios he's a car, and literally is it's a car avatar. I'm familiar with a program that's I guess it get caught in animation program where you put your phone is called real illusion.  And then it will, it will animate your face. In other words, while I'm giving it is my photograph that's all. But now it will animate my face it will, it will talk it will, you know, it will have expressions and so forth. So it's not that far from an avatar, you know, which is a sort of an advanced cartoon, I suppose, on to one of these real illusion faces, where you made it into a real face so I can, I can have you as an avatar but I can advance you with that kind of software to look just like you Tom and act just like you. Yes, and I'll give it again you give you an example of a friend of mine on Nios who has. He's an amazing avatar designer and he has some what are called trackers, and the trackers are watching.  He was mentioning he was going to get two more trackers for shoulders so that when he hunches his shoulders up his avatar does that if he flexes his arm, you see the muscle on his avatar flex. And that's all wired in he's gone through and said when I do this do this. And it is quite extraordinary, but I think the tool that you're talking about I'd love to look into that, possibly as a way to help. So the design start with that as a design. They're using a lot of standards which is one of the things that's important for any of these tools has to be an avatar standard so that you can import it into any one of these worlds. So, yeah, well so so much either so many wonderful delicious questions here honestly. I told you before the show about movie I remember being made involving a heroine whose name was hockey Ross. She was an all purpose person. And it was a space movie it had a very thin and you know, unassuming plot. It was but it was mostly about her. And she had a personality and she could speak and the movie made her a movie star. They didn't do it again and I'm sorry to say I haven't seen anything like that since then but you know this discussion of virtual reality makes me think that that could happen that we could take this kind of facial recognition. You and make you into a movie star, which is very realistic, which, you know, emulates your actual personality. And then I use AI to have you conduct yourself in a certain way under certain circumstances smile frown say this say that I can even program what you say. I can make you into, you know, how in 2001 and better, I can make a personality out of you I can put you on the screen, and you won't have to join the union. It will perhaps eventually happen and the movie you're talking about his final fantasy. I love that movie I thought it was at the time it was a white the hair would move you would just see every detail and you knew it was fake. Boy it looked real. It has to be 10 or 20 years ago. Yeah. And now you could probably do much better with that and you could create this character. She was very pretty, a lovable kind of, you know, image, but I think they could do better now and I think it's so easy to to move. You know what's in a movie a movie is the plot a movie is the, the props the background a movie is the way they relate to each other and, and I believe that once you invent Tom Leland as a, as a movie star, and you put him together with Angela Jolie as Jolie as a, you know, co star. I could think of a pretty good plot. We all can we can think of a pretty good plot and we can put our, our characters are virtual reality characters together and have them react to each other. It would be just as persuasive as any first run movie wouldn't it. I think you need to write that down and copyright the idea right away because seriously what you could do is simply let each individual make their own little version of the movie so here's the plot. Who would you like your co star to be. They'll pop up the lines for you to read.  Crazy. And you can play with it and play with it and play with it until, until you know it's going to be popular. The question is what depths, you know, of programming ability do you need to give to the movie designer. I mean I think at first you'd need a real pro, but then after a while, you know you could make it such that anyone can do this. And of course you have real competition for Hollywood, you have a whole new spectrum of of intellectual property that that has market value. I see this coming out of what you're talking about. I think there's a potential. Yeah, most definitely. So the other thing that, and this is sort of right in the middle of what we're talking about is, you talked about this as an educational tool. I mean, the body for example where you can look inside the body and that's kind of be great for medical schools, which spend a lot of money on dummies you know to teach medical students, but it goes beyond that you could program the avatars you could program the experience. So the individual with the, with the, with the headset is, is in a learning situation where somebody says to a nice move Tom but that didn't work you made a mistake there. So you should do that properly. And then you learn with the best possible teacher you can have, who is way smarter, who has got all the knowledge, and who is able to watch you one on one, what a great learning experience. Absolutely. Plus this is again this idea of having, and a lot of the worlds can't do it but for the further third or fourth time I mentioned neos they should be happy that I've done this. So there's an example of where you'd be able to pick up a scalpel or pick up this and actually do the operation and then hand the thing to somebody else or the other person's holding the dummy's head, because it really does have that kind of detail in the modeling. And so again if you if you say it's not all just fun and games but it has great potential for learning and for education. So somebody just has to apply it. That's all it is a matter of. Well, you know we live in a time of coven where people are forced to stay at home and do their thing. They have meetings this way. They, they, they learn they watch they, you know, and I think it's built into our culture to some extent, after now the third year of coven. I'm thinking, well, do I really need a classroom of people physically together.  Nobody wants to, you know, bring the class together because of the risks of coven but if I have the class together in virtual reality. It's almost as if you are together, you can interact. I'm going to give you a plus on that as well. You're not, you're not stuck with just people in Honolulu or just people in Connecticut or just people anywhere else, you're getting a select group of people from around the world so you're interacting with a guy who really in London who really wants to do this and a guy in Paris who really wants to do this. And so you're getting sort of the best cooperative group, you know it's a group you're working with and pull them together. And so yeah, I think I actually I was going to mention that I socialize with more foreigners now I speak in foreign languages and stuff with people on a regular basis then I do my neighbors, and I jump into a conversation and I'm talking to somebody in Holland or somebody in Kuwait or somebody in Scotland. And I do that on a daily basis. You know, you know, somebody in Russian saying well what's the story in Russia right now or the Ukraine. I'm talking to somebody there. But you don't speak Russian it speaks Russian for you. I don't know I speak, they speak English traditionally, although really quickly I think we're running a little short on time really quickly they do have a automated translations in all space. Right now it's beta. But the point is I speak in English and the listener can say I speak Spanish so do the translation. I speak English and a sound bubble comes up and has it translated in real time. It's just, it's getting better and better. And we are into international stuff. Yeah, I mean we're on April 1 we're doing a program involving seven continents all at the same time on zoom. And what you're describing is really very interesting for that kind of collaboration. And it's not only programming in our treatment of global issues. It's the collaboration and science the collaboration which means so much. So you could have a collaboration to beat all collaborations with scientists and every continent collaborating and their latest work. Absolutely, and no flights, and no hotels and no time lag or any of those kinds of things it's immediate. Yeah, no parking. No parking.  What, what, what, how many people are doing this. Do you have to search them out is there a place on the web that I can find somebody who has a headset and has the software and the interest. I would suggest yes there we do have a couple of places where people gather but it tends to be application specific. There's actually an app called the wander, which if you know Google Google maps and you know that there's this street view and Google maps right. Well this is Google wonder is Google maps in VR you're walking down the street with five other people up to six people. I want to show you my neighborhood and there's my house and then go down the street and here's where I work. And so, yes, anybody who is into wonder would sort of meet up. And then I say if you if you belong to alt space there are places there where you would chat and say I'm going to go into alt space today. I'll see you there. Everybody has a not only a different avatar but they have different names. They make up complete names for themselves. They make you know your imagination on that which is extended and my perception of it which is extended by this discussion. Where does this all go. How is this going to change the world I mean I can see it's going to change education. It's going to change, probably going to change the media because I can talk to anybody anywhere. You know how else is it going to change the world. Will, here's my question. Is it going to make the world a better place. Will it be used for the various purposes. Yes, and yes, unfortunately. Well, yes, what will happen I think what's happening now by the way I was just speaking with somebody on all space today, and I was suggesting that who you're meeting right now are the early adopters again similar to computers. I see a person in a headset from Saudi Arabia and I've talked to people from Iraq, and Oman, and stuff like that. Well, these are, and these are not the average person there. These are people who went out and spent a fair amount of money to get into virtual reality. And so you're going to meet these kinds of future thinkers and they say well you know I want to be prepared for five years from now. I want to know what has what I'm doing. I don't want to be it dropped in my lap in five years. So, we can't predict the future that's the trick but I'm going to suggest similar to computers, it will be used for good, more than it will be used for evil, but there will always be some evil in there. By the way, real quickie don't anybody get caught up in all of this cryptocurrency is not related to VR. And all these other kinds of things people are trying to throw these in, and they can be a part of it, but they aren't universally a part of it at all. I know I hear this discussion and see this discussion, and I really want to know more I want to be prepared, as your friend in Oman was it. I want to be prepared. So, where do I start. What are the steps I take to fully appreciate the, you know, the leverage of it, and to actually engage with others here and there. So, a quick notes, one is do a little tiny bit of research. So I would suggest doing a internet search for virtual reality and stuff like that look at some of the videos that are available. They'll show you immersed videos of people who are walking around in these different locations. If you have a little bit of spare money invest in a headset. The cheapest thing in town, and because it would be the same as sort of getting the cheapest guitar and then saying, Well, this sounds horrible. I know you got the cheapest one that's why you don't need the $5,000 one. But again, the quest is a quite a bargain at $300. And it'll allow you to experience almost everything that's out there. And if you don't think it's really well worth it, you can go buy a $1,500 one but if you don't think it's worth it you only spent $300 to find out. So, I would say jump in and experiment a little bit. And I don't need a new computer at this will connect up by USB. The quest to is completely wireless. So it doesn't require a computer at all it has the computing built into the headset. And yeah, so you're still you're still good if you have a PC. I mean I use both, but you don't need to at all. Do you need to have broadband though, available to, in order to get faster the better. And finally, where do I go to two things where do I go to learn about this I guess Nios has to be one of them. And where do I go to find out who's online. So that can actually connect. Well, now you bring up an actual we need a whole not the 30 minutes and that's the whole idea of the metaverse.  So what is the goal ultimately that there is this sort of metaverse that allows you to jump from app to app or world to world with minimum amount of effort. Right now I speak to somebody and say, oh, let's go over to a wander, I'll be on V time, both of us turn V time off, go on to wander and meet there, but it'd be nice to just transition over there. But again, I'm going to suggest that the people do a little bit of research, read up, watch videos. There's all sorts of tutorials, by the way, that's the other thing that's good on YouTube. It's filled with people explaining things. And anywhere from a five minute introduction to several hours their courses complete courses you can take for nothing for free. If you don't use it. Here's again, I'm a sort of an educator at heart, even if you never write a line of code, you can take a four hour course on unity, just to see how it works. You don't have to key it in just because they told you to do this now. Just watch it. I know I know I do accept that you are an educator at heart.  I changed a bit and hope we can get together again to talk about this or other related things and maybe you can tell me how to make think that into a virtual virtual reality global experience for everybody. We'll do that we'll see if we can't put together one episode in a virtual world, guys who can do filming inside of there, and they can broadcast stream it straight out of there. And a programmer and a virtual reality aficionado can I say that. Extraordinaire. Thank you so much Tom. Thank you very much. Very nice to happen with you again. Aloha.