I am very pleased to welcome, at an appropriate social distance, Naomi Klein, Senior Correspondent at the Intercept, Gloria Steinem, Chair in Media, Culture and Feminist Studies at Rutgers University, and critically acclaimed author. So that is a CV that could please even Bengali parents. Naomi, thanks for joining me. Well, tell them I'm a university dropout and they'll be shattered. It's so good to see you and to do this with you.  I'm going to say that you were pre-med and that'll be good enough for her. So, you know, there was this little election in a, you know, the backwater that is the American Empire, not even a week since it was called for Biden. And yet there's still all this litigation about whether the Democrats had a good or a bad result. And there's a view amongst some liberals that the historic popular vote win and the Electoral College margin means that it's just unequivocally a good result. You shouldn't talk about Biden having scraped it. And then there's a view amongst some establishment House Democrats that the underperformance down ballot was really the left's fault and Black Lives Matter's fault. And then there's the view that you take, which is the election should have been an absolute sweep for the Democrats, but they cocked it up on every front. So I guess my first question for you is what should Biden have delivered? And why didn't he? So first of all, I don't think it is just on Biden. I think it is, the responsibility is shared by the top of the ticket for sure, but also by the Democratic leadership that is currently in power, right? So this isn't the way Democrats govern. It's not an abstraction to American voters because the Democrats have the majority in the House right now and Nancy Pelosi is the leader of the House. And so when they are making a decision about who to vote for, and I mean, I don't know, I feel like I have to give a million caveats before to analyzing voters. There's so many factors. And we have to acknowledge that Donald Trump has a very large and emboldened base. And when it comes to his sort of fanatical fan, there's absolutely no doubt that a huge factor at play is white supremacy and misogyny and all kinds of things that there's no point sort of being strategic about like it actually needs to be confronted and defeated. There are voters who I do believe would have voted for a different kind of Democratic ticket. We saw, we seen Trump get a much larger share of the Latino vote, for instance. And the most disturbing result I think for the Democrats, and this is true for Biden, but like I said, also true for Pelosi, for Schumer and the Senate, is that the issue that voters in exit polls cited most as being their most important issue was the economy, no big surprise. It wasn't a majority of voters, I think was around 30%, but it more than any other issue, including the pandemic, the economy was said to be the most important issue for voters. And of the voters who said that, 82% of them voted for Trump. So they saw Trump as being a better protector of their economic interests. And that should be very worrying for a party that makes claims to represent working people. A lot of the analysis I've seen in elite media has focused on while Trump is still writing this claim that he was good for the economy before the pandemic, right? I don't think that that is the main issue. In the final weeks of the campaign, Trump relentlessly pounded this message that he stood for opening the economy back up, putting jobs first, and Joe Biden was Mr. Lockdown. And the Democrats' messaging was all about we listen to science. Yes, we are the serious people. We are the educated people. If the science says lockdown, we will lock down. And they were counting on the fact that so many people had died and we are in this unprecedented crisis that people would be okay with that. But they didn't talk about what they were going to do for people in that lockdown. I mean, there was no talk of the kind of salary supports you have in the UK, right? I mean, you have a conservative government that I think is covering 80% of people's salaries. In Canada, we have a government that's giving people $2,000 a month. The Democrats have just abandoned people. And that includes Nancy Pelosi. They absolutely criminally went along with the Republican plan to first hand out trillions of dollars to corporations and the rich, and then we'll worry about people after pretty much. I mean, as AOC said, there were crumbs for families in the first bailout packages. But it's just the most basic crime of negotiation. You don't first give it all away and then say, oh, yeah, later on, we're going to make sure that people aren't evicted from their homes, that people have their healthcare taken care of, that gig workers are taking care of, that small businesses are taking care of. They didn't do any of that. And so I think a lot of people, and this is the worrying part, voted for Trump because they associate the Democrats with this sort of self-righteous mask as signifier of virtue, lockdown as lifestyle choice. I mean, it's been encoded in this sort of cultural discourse, whereas if you're just very clear from the beginning, look, you're going to be taken care of if we lock down temporarily while we beat this thing, which is the way every government who has had effective results has done it. Then you drain a lot of the energy away from these debates. So I think that that was one of the biggest, I think that's just emblematic of the ways in which the Democratic Party has systematically failed to understand the depths of economic crisis that people are facing, and they do it on every front, but the pandemic has heightened it. But I mean, there's something interesting there, right, which is Joe Biden has been praised for big tent politics. And one of the things that I've seen identified in elite media is that they've said, well, he's ignored and sidestepped and evaded culture war issues. He's not gotten into that kind of values driven micro event, brouhaha. But I think that he's actually tilted almost entirely into culture wars. His pitch was about the soul of the nation. It was about listening to science. As you said, it was about lockdown as a signifier of your own regard for expertise and very little in the way of the material support and the economics. So you end up in a position where pandemic management becomes polarized and congeals kind of around these two culture war kind of positions, unlock, prioritize the economy, don't wear a mask because you love freedom. Also, by the way, I did give you a stimulus check. And then on the other hand, Nancy Pelosi can quite happily lock down with her double fridge ice cream. The amount of damage she did with that ice cream I think is yet to be calculated. I don't know if we'll ever truly understand it, but I do think that it's very important to understand how divisive she personally is because right out of the gate, we heard this push to blame AOC and blame Elhan Omar and blame the squad and moderate Democrats who lost their races turned around and said, never talk about socialism again, never talk about Medicare for all again, never talk about the Green New Deal again. This hurt us. And now Justice Democrats I think are the ones who did this, but pulled together a lot of the attack ads from regional media markets and found that it's not AOC and all the ads. It's Nancy Pelosi and all the ads, right? So we are in the grips of this sort of frantic narrative war. And the stakes of it are really, really high because in those moments, as you know, right after the election loss or scraped by, the narrative gets set in stone. And I think that the corporatists, Democrats have been, were the first out of the gate, right? And so it's been a bit of a heartbreak actually to watch the people who worked their butts off in this campaign, who didn't do virtual campaigning, who actually knocked on doors to incredible organizing like AOC, like Elhan Omar, like Rashida Taleb, having to spend what should have been a moment of just like, okay, you get to like take a day off, frantically fighting these messaging wars on Twitter and in the media because they see the potential of having these issues be sacrificed, right? Like never talk about the Green New Deal again. And the other thing I think, where I do think we are in a better position is I think we've got better research right now. And groups like Data for Progress, and as I said, you know, Justice Democrats, different fairly new organizations have been ready with the data, you know, to show that actually voters who endorsed, had endorsed the Green New Deal overwhelmingly won their seats. Voters who had endorsed Medicare for all had overwhelmingly won their seats. So it was just bullshit, right?  And an attempt to go on the offensive so that you yourself are not under scrutiny.  So there's not a lot of evidence to back up these claims that if you supported the Green New Deal, Medicare for all, that it was a turnoff that would mean that you would lose your seat and what have you. There's actually evidence for the contrary. But it's a useful pretext to punch left and to marginalize the party's progressives. So what leverage do progressives and socialists have in a Biden presidency to pursue policy goals? I think that remains to be seen. I think we're going to have to see a much higher level of organization and coordination among. So here's the way I see it. This is all very familiar terrain. And Joe Biden ran a nostalgic campaign as Barack Obama's vice president. Let's turn back the clock. Let's go back to the pre-Trump, sort of utopia, quote. But of course, Joe Biden is not Obama. Joe Biden was put on Obama's ticket to reassure elites that they didn't have to be afraid of Obama, right? Obama shows Joe Biden precisely because he is seen as this very centrist, bipartisan, loving, non-threatening. So we know the kinds of decisions that Barack Obama made surrounding himself with Larry Summers and Tim Geithner and all of these Wall Street figures in the middle of a crisis that they themselves had created. And basically after that, everything was downhill. But that said, we are in a different situation. Even though this is a familiar dynamic here with Biden, movements are not in the same position that they were when Biden and Obama came to power. DSA barely existed. I mean, I think they had a few thousand members. They were not a political force. Justice Democrats didn't exist when Obama came to power. The Working Families Party existed, but nothing to the extent that it has political power now. The squad didn't exist during the Obama years, right? And that is a result of those political organizations. Occupy happened during Obama's presidency. The first Black Lives Matter uprisings happened during Obama's presidency. Standing Rock. The Keystone XL protests. The Apostle Field Divestment Movement. Sunrise. These are all products of that era, right? So that's why I've been sort of trying to remind people, because I think we all have PTSD a little bit, that they may be the same, but we are different, right? And so your question of like, okay, what's our leverage? I don't think we know because I don't think we've actually organized ourselves in a way to summon the full power represented by all of these forces, right? So I think that our movements are still too siloed on issues, as opposed to coalesced around a coherent vision. And even the squad itself is largely an ad hoc group of like-minded colleagues. It isn't an organized political bloc yet. So now you have, you know, AOC, Ilhan Omar, Rashida Taleb all fought fierce primaries, right? Where they had- they had- they were primary by politicians who had a lot of money. They'd come back with a really powerful mandate. So it wasn't just that they were re-elected. Because people tried to dismiss a lot of this as a bit of a fluke. They didn't see them coming. They didn't really prepare. Now they prepared and they actually have a bigger mandate. So they're coming back more powerful and they're bigger. So you've got people like Cory Bush who I campaigned with on the Sanders campaign. I mean, DC doesn't know what's coming when it comes to Cory Bush, you know? She is a nurse. She was a street medic during the Ferguson uprisings. She is a very, very, very powerful activist, extremely accountable to those communities. Jamal Bowman and Educator. So you have like, you know, people from the care economy, from the care sectors who understand the brokenness. So we need more coordination from them. We need more coordination, I think, between Justice Democrats, DSA, working families, parties. And I think at the social movement level, we also need more coordination. What kind of leverage we can muster remains to be seen because we haven't done that yet. But I think people understand that and we'll see. But I think we need to replicate and grow exponentially. Is that moment when the Democrats won back Congress, they were expecting a parade and instead they got the sunrise movement occupying Nancy Pelosi's office before she'd even been elected as speaker. But everyone knew she was going to be the new speaker. And AOC who herself hadn't been sworn in going to the office occupation, high-fiving them, promising to bring in a green new deal, right? That sort of inside-outside pincer, right? Of the squad on the inside and the movement, you know, doing direct action on the outside. And targeting establishment Democrats, if we can replicate that dynamic and grow it, I think we could have a significant amount of leverage. But I think it's a moment of real danger because Biden's appeals to working class voters did not work nearly as well as his appeals to suburban voters, right? So if we're just looking electorally who he may feel accountable to, thankfully, he doesn't feel accountable to the, she shouldn't feel accountable to the Republicans because they overwhelmingly stayed with Trump, right? But he did make some gains with wealthy suburbanites more so than with working class voters. And that's not a good recipe when you're dealing with somebody like Joe Biden. So we have our work cut out for us. I mean, it's also all about how you define unity. So Biden is claiming that his mandate is a mandate for bipartisan corporation and for unity. And one of the things that I was asking myself is, well, what does this even mean when your opponent hasn't even acknowledged your win yet? When, you know, the Republicans aren't interested in unity or consensus.  He was, you know, intended to break his presidency and break him as a man. That was where they were at. So what do you make of these calls for unity? Are they nearly misguided political strategy? You know, the kind of lovey-dovey instincts of, you know, peace and love, leading people in the wrong direction? Or is it a reflection of a vested set of elite interests and trying to restore those to, you know, 2016, pre-2016 normality? Yeah, I think it's the latter, actually, as I think you know. Yeah, I mean, what this is an elite unity that they're talking about. It is not unifying working class people across divides of race and religion and gender. I mean, this is the kind of unity work that we really need to do if we're serious about healing and about repairing deep, deep rifts. It's a papering over in the interests of those elites because, yeah, the United States has two ruling class parties and Joe Biden is a representative of one. I take solace from the fact that he is extremely out of step from the base of his party, that there continues to be a huge amount of support for the policies that Bernie Sanders represented and, you know, having campaigned for Bernie and, you know, acted as a surrogate for him. I went to five states during the primaries with the campaign and talked to a lot of voters and met a lot of people who, you know, frankly, who were very clear. I love Bernie. I agree with Bernie. I think he's totally right about Medicare for all the great new deal, but and the but was interesting. The but was was was was sometimes it was about just fatigue, you know, we need a transition period, you know, and that was one of Joe's pitches, right? Like I'm a placeholder. I'm just gonna like you'll be able to take a breath and just relax, you know. And I think people are are so beaten down by the Trump years. And here I'm talking about, you know, working class African American voters who I met in in the Nevada caucuses who who just said like, can we just have a break? You know, like I love Bernie, but can we just have this kind of in between break period? But then there was also the but of of a deep understanding of the depths of of anti communism of red baiting of of, you know, particularly for older voters who who felt that they knew the country, right? Better than these young Bernie kids, right? And who said out of hard won wisdom. And this is where I think that, you know, we can't just like attribute this all to, you know, the centrist we love to beat up on, right? It was it was out of hard won life wisdom, having survived, you know, the civil rights movement and seeing their leaders assassinated and and seeing how the McCarthy era had destroyed, you know, working class movements and divided the civil rights movement. They said this country will never elect a democratic socialist, right? You are underestimating what is going to what is going to be thrown at Bernie. And and so, yeah, so I guess there's some hope in it in the sense that it wasn't like an affirmative vote for the policies that Biden represented. It had to do with a fear of of the power of that of anti communism in the as an American tradition. And I don't feel the Sanders campaign ever did enough to sort of frontally address that, right? I mean, I was arguing that we should have had ads like that were kind of funny and like, you know, reds under the bed and red scale that sort of put what Bernie was facing within the history of red bathing and McCarthyism do it with a light touch. But actually, don't just say, don't worry about it, it's going to be fine. But actually talk about what that what is the plan? Because this is a fierce force. And I think, you know, speaking with you, Ash, like, you know, the truth is that it what we had to fear was not like, I think Bernie could have survived Trump's attacks, because the Republicans attack every Democrat as they did it to Obama, as you said, and threw in black nationalist on top of it and said it was part of a vast plot to bring reparations to Kenya.  The problem is they've been running candidates who don't offer the benefits, right? So you get backlash against socialism, but you don't get the socialism. So, you know, this is why during the Obama years, I would argue like, you're gonna get, you're gonna get treated as if you're giving people reparations anyway. So why not do it? Fox is acting like you're doing it. So why don't you do it? But the real issue is that it isn't the Republicans that Bernie had to worry about. It was the liberals, right? So they would have done what they did to Corbyn, right? Like that rolling coup that Corbyn faced, that is what would have happened within the Democratic Party had Bernie won the primary, and that's the thing I'm puzzling over. Like, how do we deal with that? But I mean, one of the things, and I think that this is particularly the case for voters of color, and it's something which I've heard again and again in the UK, and I think it's also something which has a resonance in the United States context as well, which is you do have these voters of color who go, well, I want these policies, but white Britain, white America, I'm never gonna go for them. So there's this element of ventriloquism. You're deciding what's electable based on what you think is going to allay the fears of voters who've historically been best treated by this democracy. And that's not something I know how you break through. I don't know how you get to the point of going, well, maybe you should just do what you want and let's see what happens. Right. Yeah, I don't know either. And I think, you know, I saw some of that within the like, you know, Bernie did not do everything perfectly by any means, and he didn't have a great operation reaching out to African American voters, particularly older voters, where he had a fearsome organizing machine that I saw myself was in reaching out to Latinos. And watching the Unidos Converning campaign in Nevada, I started to see what that could look like. And it travels through the kids. It was quite interesting. You know, there was this strategy of reaching the children of the sort of more cautious parents. And it seemed to really work. I mean, Latinos voted for Bernie overwhelmingly in Nevada. And so I think it is possible to do, but I think we still have this problem of even so, so Corbyn did win the leadership, right. And he faced a sort of, from what I can tell on this side of the Atlantic, a rolling, never ending coup from the party establishment, right, which succeeded in making him seem, you know, just, I don't know. I mean, you know better than me, but it gradually wore down the support, right. And I think a lot of what I heard from voters around Bernie was, were tired, right. And they knew that best case scenario, if Bernie won, it would just be a nonstop war, right. And so people are looking for some kind of a break, right. Like some kind of a being allowed to exhale. And so I think we need a way to communicate with people that acknowledges it is a war. Like we don't get a break, right. And there's no way you actually get to a better place without having the actual conflicts with entrenched interests. And they are going to fight because they have a ton on the line, right. And so, yeah. But I think we need better messaging on the unity question because people do want unity. So we have to talk about the kind of unity that we want, right. Because if we don't really, really name that and give people a taste of it, then that sort of paper unity seems very appealing, or as a sort of a second choice, right. So like that moment in the campaign where after Biden won his first primary, right, you have the whole balance of losing candidates surrounding him, right. That moment, right, where all, like not everyone, but a lot of them were all on stage with him. And it was this performance of elite unity against Bernie, right. And people looked at that and said, okay, this looks like, this looks more appealing than fighting forever. Whereas what I would wish had happened in that moment, and this is what sticks with me.  She was giving interviews to Rachel Maddow about how Bernie Bros were mean on Twitter, you know. Like Andrew Yang, who said he wanted universal basic income and has been critiquing the Democrats for not speaking to working class voters. He was one of the first to endorse Biden, right. So, you know, or none of the candidates who sort of position themselves as being more in the Bernie side, sided with Bernie in that moment. We needed more cultural figures who maybe could, but like, if they were all going to unify behind their centrist, we needed our own kind of unity that represented by the kind of movements that I was talking about earlier, these organizations that I was talking about. We have to be able to show people what a different kind of unity represents, I guess is what I'm saying. And I don't think we did that. It just kind of looked like they're all united against Bernie.  I mean, I think after the five years of Corbinism, where I kind of went into it being a, you know, austerity motivated anarchist, and then suddenly I'm shilling for social democracy. And it really was one of those record scratch freeze frame moments of, you know, you're in some marginal scene, you're like, yep, that's me. How did I get here after, you know, being at the top of Milbank Tower 10 years ago, while Tory party HQ was getting smashed in. That was you. I saw that video. I mean, that was, I was 18 years old and I thought it was the most exciting thing that ever happened in my entire life and probably was the most exciting thing that happened in my entire life. But seeing the arc of what happened with Jeremy Corbin and seeing how he was produced, first as he's too nice to hold the office of Prime Minister to by the end of it, there was the sense of he's a wrong in, right? He's a wrong in in every way. He's an anti-Semite, which is worse than a racist because it's got its own special name. He's too close to the Muslims for comfort. One of the things that I heard on the doorstep in 2019 in a constituency which was 97% white is that Jeremy Corbin wanted all the Muslims to come and take over. And I was like, bro, have you seen a single Muslim in this town apart from me? And I've just come here. But the way in which like one's perception of your neighborhood is completely distorted through media coverage.  And one of the things that stuck with me through that process is that the left didn't have strategy for combating that other than appealing to values, ones of solidarity and kindness and wanting a better life, which just weren't hegemonic in the electorate. Much more powerful was the feeling of negative solidarity of I'll do without better as long as someone who I deem unworthy doesn't get something they don't deserve. And I wonder from across the Atlantic, what you made of watching that, and if you could have advised Corbin and his team, what would have been the thing that you would have said, do this differently or fight back in this way? That's a huge question. I have to cast my mind back to it a little bit. I do feel that there were ways that he could have addressed. I think there was a lot of cynicism in the claims of anti-Semitism, but cynical or not, it resonated with people. People felt it, right? And I think that there was an important moment that was lost where there was a video that came out where it was sort of taken out of context. You'd remember it better than me where it was something like, there was a discourse around it was not really English. Do you remember? So what that was was he was trying to make a comment about a Palestinian man saying almost more English than the English because he understand irony, which Zionists didn't. And that was then a huge moment because I think a lot of people in the Jewish community felt that that wasn't a limited comment on these specific individuals anymore, that it was saying that if you're a Zionist, you don't participate in English culture. You're not a part of it. Yeah. And so I remember watching that and what I felt could have happened. This is just one example. I felt like rather than just talk about how that was taken out of context and it wasn't right. I thought it was a moment where Jeremy could have given a great speech about the exclusive idea of Englishness and who patrols the boundaries of Englishness that really spoke to the many, many, many people who have felt themselves on the outside of that because it was a feeling. It's not, at a certain point, it's not about the facts. It's about the fact that people have experienced anti-Semitism in the UK. When I was there at Labour Party Conference a few years ago and I was doing media and people were saying, well, what about the anti-Semitism? I was saying, yes, there's anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. There's anti-Semitism in the Tory Party. There's anti-Semitism in British society. So it's everywhere, right? And I think that you have to be able to speak to that and define another kind of Britishness that feels much more inclusive to people. And so I think, I wish he could have done that. But this points to a broader issue, right? And I'm probably going to say some things that I regret. But I would love to hear your thoughts. That's exactly what we want. Come on. So correct, Miss Naomi. All right.  So, you know, who cares what I think. But I did get involved in Bernie's campaign in a way that I've never gotten involved in electoral politics. I've never, you know, as I mentioned, I was a surrogate. I've never done anything remotely like that. The most I had ever done was like write a newspaper column about which candidate I thought was better than the other. I have never gotten involved in electoral politics the way I did for Bernie. And I did because for the same reason I spoke at Labor Party Conference because of climate change, because I think we need transformational politics a decade ago. But even though we didn't get it then or two decades ago, we damn well need it now. And so I've gotten out of my comfort zone in order to do this work. Corbin and Sanders are very, very different types of politicians. But I do think that they share something in common. And it's part of I think the appeal that they had for younger people was that they were, there was something about them that was, was like a kind of a lovable cluelessness that allowed them to survive the 80s and 90s, relatively unscathed. Precisely because they didn't have the kind of media sabbiness and because they had that sort of singular focus. I wrote a little bit about Corbin as the kind of anti-brand where if you had Tony Blair as like the politician who understood corporate marketing, applied the principles of corporate branding to a political party for the first time, rebranded labor, new labor, this utterly meaningless trade, labor-scented as opposed to actually representing people. And so Corbin represented this return to the pre-branding era, the pre-media savvy era of just like, we're just gonna, we're gonna be the labor party as in people who labor, you know. And I think that for young people who are so seeped in branding and marketing and self-referential communications, there was something really trustworthy about the fact, that sort of media cluelessness. And we saw something very similar with the Corbin, Sanders campaign, particularly in 2016 where Bernie had that very same thing he's been saying forever. This is why I think after so many sort of test tube marketed politicians, these figures were more trustworthy because they have been saying the same thing for so many decades and that sort of message discipline. And yeah, Bernie's been talking about the millionaires and the billionaires for a very, very long time and he continued to do that. And then all of his sophisticated comms work grew up around him, much of it volunteer, right? And I guess what I'm wondering is maybe we've gone as far as we can go down that particular route. I think it brought a whole new generation into politics, actually brought in a couple of new generation into politics because Sanders and Corbin were a different kind of politician and were able to earn that trust. But their strength has also proven their weakness, right? That sort of intellectual rigidity or that sort of messaging rigidity. I mean, I think it's good to be consistent, right? But you also have to be nimble. You also have to change with events. And so I wonder now whether perhaps we can say to Corbin and to Sanders, thank you for bringing these new generations into politics, including a new generation of politicians in the squad who would not have done this work if it weren't for their example. But if we are going to weather these tumultuous waters that you and I have been talking about, we need leaders who are profoundly literate when talking about race, when talking about gender can seamlessly tell a story about the interrelationships between class and race and gender. And not just make a list of issues to tick off, but actually tell the story, right? Tell the story. And pivot and weave and use social media and be responsive. And I want to stress that when I say pivot and weave, I don't mean change your position, but respond to events as they're happening, right? Because I think that there's a frustration with that rigidity, which is also what we love about them, right? Where dramatic things change and we're still sticking with the same message. And I don't think that that works well enough. So I don't think these are insurmountable problems, but I just don't think that we maybe had the leaders who could lead us through them. And I'm not throwing them under the bus, but I just think that we need leaders who have the whole package maybe. So apologies to our viewers who have noticed a real shift in lighting, but the deep state hacked my camera, so I had to switch to a different one. But I want to talk about this thing that you identify, which is being able to talk about talking the registers of race and gender and doing so convincingly, and not just because it's a long list of injustices which you rattle off and say you're going to fix. Because it seems to me that particularly in America every four years praises heaped on black people for saving democracy from white nationalists. And then straight afterwards, liberals, the elites, the establishment gets right back to arguing that the demands and the material interests of those exact same black voters are completely untenable, unelectable, it's kryptonite the suburbs, and there's this enduring sense of we want your vote, but on no account do we want to have to represent your interests. And then you've got white politicians like Jeremy Corbyn who did try and represent more the interests of voters of color, particularly working class, Muslim votes of color in the UK, and it was absolutely hammered for it. So one of the questions that I've been wanting to ask, you know, quite a few of the big hitters, you know, the other side of Atlantic is when, if ever, will America actually be a multiracial democracy? And how do you achieve that sense of inequality of legitimate political interests on the part of white voters, black voters, Latino voters, voters of color more generally? Right. I mean, if this would be a good moment to try.  I think you're seeing an immediate pushback, right, in a way that maybe we haven't seen after elections. And that pivot that you're talking about is it's not it's not it's not happening without a fight. I think the danger is that Joe Biden seems to believe that he can appease people with representation, right. So he said, I owe I owe black people for my primary win. And I promise to elect a to select a woman and eventually he selected a black woman as his running mate. And he sees that as like, like that is him paying back those voters, right. And now he's talking about if he gets to appoint a Supreme Court justice, he will support a people appoint a black woman to the Supreme Court. And that's great. But it is not the same as ensuring that every black person in America has health care. And in fact, he is supporting policies that will actively prevent that, right. So I think that this is the danger is, is whether or not there is going to be pushback against just the kind of representational response, because I think that we can expect the Biden administration to be very intersectional. A friend of mine tweeted, welcome to the age of intersectional empire, the other day, which was pretty harrowing and probably quite true. I mean, there was a meme from the Clinton campaign in 2016. And it was near the blonde lady maths meme of all of the like geometry and stuff. And it's when you're trying to think of how to make drones intersectional. I think that this comes back to what we were talking about earlier about what the leverage is, what the power is, because people are naming this in a way that they haven't, and pushing back, including against the kind of tokenistic appeasement, right. Like it isn't just no, it's not enough just to appoint people to the highest levels of your administration. You actually need the policies that are going to materially transform the lives of working people and the people getting the raw steel in the United States are overwhelmingly black and brown. So this is about race. And I think that this will, you know, as Ilhan Omar said, we get what we organize for, right. So we have a lot of work to do on that front. But it's Joe Biden. It is not going to be, as he keeps reminding us, he's not Bernie Sanders. He's not. He beat Bernie Sanders. So I think it's, when is that moment going to be? I don't think it is going to be this moment. I don't think it's going to be this administration. But I think that what we can do at the movement level is come together around that vision much more forcefully than we have in the past. And a lot of that has started to happen during the Trump era, but not enough of it. And there's still, I think, a feeling of kind of scarcity in movement politics of like, you know, and a lot of that has to do with the way movements are funded, you know, people are competing over scarce resources. And so it almost mitigates against collaboration because you want to claim that your movement won this and you get money from foundations for it. And so, you know, we just need to talk openly about what are the systems that we're all locked in that are keeping us from organizing together. This is what was powerful about being part of the Sanders campaign, is you caught a glimpse, right, in the way that Bernie brought together working class voters. You know, if you look at who donated to his campaign, overwhelmingly it was nurses, Amazon workers, Walmart workers. And, you know, the tragedy of it is these ended up being of the quote unquote, you know, essential workers, the frontline workers. They were already Bernie voters, right? And they weren't trusted. I mean, this to me is the biggest heartbreak of what happened during the primaries is that Bernie did bring together a multi-racial coalition. It didn't go deep enough, but it was there and you saw it. You saw it at rallies and you saw it in who was donating to the campaign. But a lot of the people who speak on behalf of those groups didn't trust their own members, like whether it was union leadership, you know, or whether it was NGO leadership, there was a sense of like, I actually kind of like a classism in that, like you couldn't trust that those workers at Walmart, that those workers at Amazon, that those nurses actually knew it was best for them, you know? And that goes, I think, very deep in the kind of left or progressive movement that we have, which is actually not a left. I mean, do you think that in part because the reactionary right have been very good at absorbing and capitalizing on the way in which 40 years of neoliberalism has transformed class composition? Because even just being able to say a multi-racial working class coalition is something which not everyone or even the left accepts exists. So one of the things, the other thing is that, you know, 40 years of attacks on trade union organizing, the demise of heavy industry and former industrial heartlands is that one's perception of class identity is decoupled from the economic base. So you've got this tilt towards thinking of the real working class being a small business owner who might own multiple properties, but doesn't have a college degree, therefore is more working class authentically than a temp doing data entry who rents a box room which costs half of their salary and they're never going to own a house as long as they shall live. And the right has acknowledged that change and has leapt upon it, but the left and progressives more generally struggles with that. Yeah, and a lot of it has to do with trade union membership. And so, you know, who makes up trade union membership does not represent who the working class actually is. It is much wider and it is much better off, much more middle class. And this is where I think COVID and the response to COVID presents a really powerful organizing opportunity that a lot of people have been stepping into, right? Because COVID made the actual working class visible in a way that it is systematically invisibilized in our culture, right? And the whole discourse around essential workers is quite interesting, right? Because it was really just a rebranding of working class people who never were able to shelter in place and people keeping the lights on, cleaning up the trash, taking care of people in hospitals.  And all the gig workers and delivery drivers and so on. So that's the current working class, but people who weren't able to lock down. And they were treated and are still being treated so vis-va-oi, right? And this is where it comes back to where we started in a way, which is, you know, and I'm really worried about it already with Biden. You know, the first thing he's done is he has struck this high powered scientific committee, right? To develop their pandemic response. And it's filled with amazing public health experts and different scientists. But those people will tell you that you need a lockdown, but they will not tell you how to do it without sparking a massive backlash and causing mass starvation. You need social policy for that, right? And so I think we need to be, because we are still in this pandemic. We are still in a moment of a mass death. And that is the working class, the people who are keeping us alive. And so that's who we need to be organizing. And, you know, we did a little video with Molly Crabapple, which was a sequel to the one we did with AOC. We've done a couple of these videos that are sort of set in the future.  When we did the first one with AOC, it was a little bit more straightforward, right? Because it was pre-election and the idea was, well, basically, you know, we're going to take power and we're going to do this thing. And now, whoever the we is, we're not taking, we are not in power. We are not Biden. And so we are still going to have to fight for this. So what are our points of leverage? And in the second video, we kind of explored what an essential worker general strike would look like, right? And I think that that's where we need to be investing a lot of our energy. And I guess just to bring this around a little bit more and thinking about the lessons of the Corbyn and Sanders movements, right? And your leap, right? From being that 18-year-old anarchist and shutting down Tory headquarters to suddenly campaigning for social democracy for Jeremy Corbyn. You know, maybe that's too big a leap. And I say, like, in a sense that I sometimes wonder, and I felt this when I was on the campaign with Sanders of like, okay, did we skip some stages here? Right? Like, we went straight for the top, right? Like, campaigning for, in your case, for the prime ministership, in our case, for the U.S. presidency. And we knew that we hadn't done that sort of base organizing work to earn it. And we got a taste of what it would look like to all be kind of rowing in the same direction and this sort of, this multi-racial working class coalition that you caught a glimpse of in the Sanders campaign and in the Corbyn campaign. But the communities themselves weren't organized yet. And the Sanders campaign responds to that by saying, okay, he's going to be the organizer in chief, they're organizing as they go. But a presidential campaign is not the same as actually organizing in workplaces, in neighborhoods and building up that power that then can stay cohesive no matter what happens. Because I think that the heartbreak, and I don't know if you felt this in the U.K. as well, is that when the Sanders campaign was over, with some exceptions, we all just scattered back into our silos, right? And I don't think you should ever be reliant on a presidential campaign or a prime ministerial campaign to hold your movement together, right? There's that's much too precarious. And so maybe these years are about building up what that represented in a way that isn't reliant on any one politician's political fortunes. And I think that's a really beautiful place to wrap up. It's hopeful with just enough amount of bittersweet, almost remorse to see people through on a Tuesday evening. Naomi, thank you so much for joining us. And I swear it's not just because I mixed you up for a lockdown skeptic Naomi Wolfe. I'm sure she would be happy to talk with you. That's not that. Do you know that when I met with Alexis Tsipras about six years ago?  So he let's just say he was more disappointed than you. Oh, really? Was it Naomi Campbell? He had mistakenly said that at a public forum that he he'd said, you know, what we're living through here in Greece is Naomi Campbell's the shock doctor. And he was in conversation with Slavoj Zizek who just sat there and went it's one of my favorite moments in left history. I mean, it's one of those things where it's like a huge promotion to both of you. So suddenly it's Naomi Klein, supermodel of the world, shot by Mario Testino and Naomi Campbell. When I show up, you know, I just show up and it's just like, sorry. Well, you know what? Actually, I lied. My final question wasn't my final question because I did outsource to Twitter. What would you ask Naomi Klein if you had the chance to? And somebody did ask what is the skincare routine? And seeing as I pulled you into, you know, trivial waters with the Naomi Campbell thing, I've got to put it to you. But, oh, Jesus. Oh, what is the skincare routine? That is very kind. I guess that means that they think I have a good skincare routine. I don't, I'm not going to do this. I guess. It may tell her, I'll say good genes that you have absolutely decimated whatever good will you put full top over the interview. You know, if you just go out, I've got fantastic genes. That's it. Oh, no, no, no, no. There are ridiculous numbers of creams involved. But you don't want a $12 ice cream moment. I see what's going on here. Exactly, exactly. No, I'm not there. Naomi, thank you so much for joining us. I will let you get back to your busy regimen of exfoliating, moisturizing and whatever. Exactly. Some serums, some serums. So lovely. I can't believe this is the first time we met. It was such a pleasure. You're such a hero. Keep up the great work. Lovely. And you know, hopefully when all this is over, I can come raid your moisturiser cabinet in person. Absolutely. We'll do sheet masks. No product is safe when I'm in the house. Sticky food. Take care out.


So what are roadmaps? We have a talk on this more from a conversations at Lab Week and our Endress Summit. Actually, if Juan here, if you want to talk through this, you did a really great presentation on it. This is me grabbing your slides, but I can voice over. Yeah, happy to. The thing you hear is that when you think about roadmaps, there are several different levels which you might think about describing a roadmap for a team or a project. There's, of course, the lowest zoom level might be a very detailed set of tasks and to-dos that you and your team are directly executing on. And then when you can sort of zoom out from that and you start thinking about the milestones that you're working with other teams in adjacent areas with, you look at a higher granularity, then you can zoom out at an even higher level and then start looking at a set of specific milestones that then maybe consumers of your project or other groups that are further away from your work but are dependent upon your work, the information about it and so on. So as you're thinking about updating and describing progress along a vision or progress along a trajectory for a project, it's extremely useful to have these different roadmaps, different levels of granularity for the different groups that need access to this information. So we've done pretty well in terms of figuring out kind of the lower granularity roadmaps and various different teams use different tools, everything from GitHub to Gantt charts to their own tasks and to-do list and whatnot. And what we were missing was this kind of like higher level zoom view, what here in the slide is described as kind of like zoom level three in a sense that corresponds well to the kind of roadmaps that a number of teams have been working on in the last couple of quarters in terms of having kind of a road map on the earth with masses in the order of like three to six mass stones spanning somewhere between you know kind of two to six quarters ahead in time. These are not kind of like very prescriptive boundaries but they kind of give you a sense of roughly the set of masses that you want to be able to communicate to a larger set of users that kind of wouldn't know the progress on the project. So that's the set of roadmaps that we're using to coordinate across all of our teams and with a lot of the dependent users that's kind of like that's in level three set of roadmaps and that's what's kind of going to start maps and which Molly has been using in the core improvement road map slides. Like those are kind of like that's in level three. Exactly. And I think that was my next slide as well. Like probably the biggest thing having read through everyone's roadmaps over the past couple of days since we landed first drafts of those earlier this week is we've tended to do too many. Is your biggest takeaway is focus, focus, focus. You can have more milestones that you keep track of as your team, as what you're working on. But when you visualize a user focused roadmap, this is like five milestones a year. If you have five themes per year each of which has five milestones, you're doing it wrong. That's too many milestones. Those are not user focused milestones. Those are maybe team development milestones. And so focus your roadmaps come up and the wonderful thing is this is now computable. It's in tools, it's in GitHub issues. You can have many issues and you can have different views that you include some children in one view but not another view. And so big thanks to this new computable tool which is more machine readable, interlinkable and automates that visualization process. You actually get much more optionality on how you wanna visualize things which I think is really exciting. Yeah, roughly the milestone count here will depend by project like you, it's not exactly five persons like that. It's kind of like a think of it as a range but definitely like if you're giving people more than six things to care about like you're already kind of past the point of them being able to remember and so on. So really think of the Zoom level three as communicating to thousands, to tens of thousands of people, not a very granular thing. What most team members individually will care about in your team is the lower level, lower granularity maps. So kind of with Zoom level one and two. Julie, I don't know if you want to talk us really quickly through star maps, the two of it. Yeah, exactly. So I think a lot was already said so I'll skip over some things. But yeah, most if not all of Endra's teams have now added their roadmaps to GitHub. So a huge thank you there and huge thank you to everyone who's offered feedback along the way. For the time being you can find those links in Notion and we'll probably figure out a better home for those. But yeah, all the links that you see in the link there are compatible with star maps. So feel free to play around and explore some other team roadmaps. So just quickly, this is what you would see if you pasted a roadmap link in star maps. This one is actually a rendering of roadmaps across all of Endra's in the detailed view which is what you're looking at. You can see that top level issue and then a milestone one level down. If that milestone has child milestones you can keep clicking into that so you get more and more granular as you go. Each one as Molly mentioned has a link to GitHub so you can follow along the issue there. And then also as those child milestone issues close in GitHub, you'll start to see a progress indicator which we're not seeing on this one yet, but we will soon. It is working though. So if you do have any closed issues you'll see it for your roadmap. But yeah, I'm intentionally not going into too much detail that's the gist of it. I would love though folks to play around and offer any feedback that they have so that we can help make this tool super user friendly and great for the work. Thank you so much for building this. Yeah, I grabbed this together from all of the different roadmaps. I think there is some already immediate learnings from going through that exercise. I created like six new route issues last night with different visualizations of sub milestones. Like definitely learnings around if you break things up into a lot of different themes, hard to see what are the major milestones that are happening within there. All you get is the theme, not the milestone. And also if you don't put any ETAs in your root issue then that gives us warnings and concerns. And so always put an ETA and just do your best estimate for what's contained within the roadmap that's being described there. But I definitely think this gives us a highly flexible tool. We're gonna keep iterating on it. But the really cool thing that this is not unlocks, again, all of these issues are happening in each team's specific repo in GitHub where they are tracking kind of their roadmap areas. Many different people own these different issues and can make their own views. If you have other ecosystems in, you know, say the Olympia to Peace space or IPFS where many different teams across implementations like IRO and other groups are building capabilities that create cross dependencies or should live in an overall IPFS project roadmap or Falcon project roadmap that extends across multiple groups, we can create visualizations across the roadmaps of all of those different teams and communities. It's truly open source and cross ecosystem and network native in how it can visualize the contributions that are happening across many different teams. So we do not see this as the thing just for Endress. We are biting the bullet of helping build the tool and be early guinea pig testers of putting our roadmaps in it. But we would love to see this become more new and a tool that is super valuable across the whole PL network. But we still have some work to do to get it to that point. And one thing you'll notice as we start using these is that we'll start seeing that some of the milestones won't line up, meaning some dependencies will like strike out as, hey, wait, suddenly these milestones won't actually be possible. And yeah, this is exactly what we hope will pop out of a lot of this stuff. So a lot of the, these are the first integration of everybody's individual roadmaps. It'll take a while while we sort through that and detangle some of the dependencies. And I think right now we don't have, we have children, but we don't have dependencies yet between different areas. And so that's a future thing for us to be able to define those dependencies and make things turn red if the timeline of a dependency is after the timeline of a thing that is dependent on it. Great, that gives us good signals. And we can use these visualization tools to alert us and then drill down within these areas. And so that is, this is the wonderful tool, StarMaps. You can open items in GitHub. You can swap into a more detailed view that sees kind of the sub items within different themes. All sorts of really, really cool stuff. It's a big, big thanks to the Ignite team for building this. Please keep giving them lots of feedback as GitHub issues on the StarMaps repo. And yeah, we're gonna keep moving forward on it.


Hey guys, Vladimir here with Desktop Makes. Now every year I do a Christmas theme design and 3D print. And usually true to my nature, they're always last minute. Now this year, instead of designing an ornament, I'm going with a holiday card. Not just any old boring holiday card. This is a snap apart and build your own gingerbread house kit that comes in the form of a holiday card. So I've got a few here in different colors that I'm playing around with. And actually one in the Prusa Mini right now printing. So yeah, small enough you can fit it on the Prusa Mini. And in fact, I made sure it was small enough where you can actually fit it in an envelope. So this right here is a regular card envelope that you would get for like a birthday card and here it fits right in there and you can just, there you go. So yeah, 5x7 is the dimension I went with. So yeah, the idea was inspired by Thingiverse user Nakazin. And I'll leave the link below to his page where you can check out his amazing 3D printed card kits and maybe even be inspired to design your own like I was. Okay, so here's the built model in Fusion 360. I took this model and created a flat pack version of it where you can print it and give it to friends and family. And that's just where the fun begins because after receiving it, they can snap apart the pieces and have fun building their own gingerbread house kit. You can see here I've printed a few already that I'm just having fun kind of playing with different colors and other schemes here and I've uploaded the STL files to Prusa printers and to Thingiverse. The links for those are below. It's my Christmas gift to you, so Merry Christmas and feel free to re-gift it. I've uploaded two versions where I only changed the text on the top here. So one of them says Merry Christmas and the other one says Happy Holidays. If you don't want to do filament change, another option is to just 3D print it in one color and then you can paint it. You can even use like a marker or a sharpie to give it the look that you want. There are a lot of really valuable Fusion 360 techniques that I use to create this model and I'll be creating separate videos to go through those. It would just take way too long. I mean I'd probably be looking at like a two-hour video if I try to cover everything in one video. I'll also be making the Fusion 360 design file to my Patreon supporters. So see the link below to see how to become a supporter of my channel. Okay so for this video I simply want to build this with you. I know a little different than my other videos but like I said I'll save the design tutorials for future videos. Okay so first we need to cut apart the different sections here and you can just use little snips to break them apart.  Okay I'm going to go ahead and cut this one out just using a pair of snips here and then we'll assemble it. So these actually will just pop right out and I'm just going to get them free for now and then I'll go ahead and come back and clean them up. You want to be careful here you want to actually cut them because I did try to see if you can just kind of snap them and the problem with that is that these... I made them so thin just enough to hold it together that they'll behave as like a thread if you pull one and then just try to pull it apart it may just end up like pulling the filament like a thread and kind of unravel it. So okay then you're left with this, got all the pieces and then what I'm just going to do is I'm going to go back and just clean all these up. Okay so I'm just going to come back in and cut these flush you want them to be flush otherwise it's going to interfere with the build here and we go to snap them together. This is where good pair of snips really comes in handy. You might notice that this has actually a different color on the back than in the front. The reason for that is I just simply ran out of filament this color and I had to swap out a different filament a few layers left to complete the top so that's the only reason that you're seeing a different color in the front versus the back. Okay now I got these all cut. We can go ahead and assemble them. So I'm just clear this out the way. Okay I built a few of these and I kind of have a method here that works. So I like to start with the back wall here because you've got that long chimney and then you want to grab the roof that has an extra long slot and that's the one that's going to go on the chimney here and you can see here that the chimney is actually beveled there which is really nice because what happens is so if we go ahead and just push these in when you put the other chimney with that beveled they're all going to meet at a nice edge here so if we bring this other chimney here that should just snap actually you want to make sure that the beveled edge on that is facing up and then we're going to snap that into the little tab here. Go ahead and snap that in. Now they're not Legos here you're not going to get that really satisfying snap but it will be enough to hold them in place there and there's not that much material to work with we're only working with like that's two millimeters there of thickness. So yeah so you get the back end there that chimney will hold that really nice into place and you can see this you know it holds pretty well so you shouldn't really need glue hopefully not I mean I know designing something like this is going to be you know different with every printer every printer has you know slightly different tolerances and I designed this at 0.2 millimeter clearance so let's go ahead and get this front wall on here now and sometimes you do get actually that nice satisfying snap right in there and then so there we go I've got the front and the back wall now the way I did that the clearance there is after I designed it I went back and did an offset to each of these sides all the tabs that are well where the tabs go into sort of the inner void there at first I tried 0.15 on each side but that was too loose and I'll show you an example of that so this was one where that was at 0.015 which meant you know combine it you're looking at a 0.3 millimeter clearance and you can see there the problem with that is that was just too loose and this just pops right out it doesn't hold it in so then instead of 0.15 I did a 0.1 offset and then that gave me a total of 0.2 millimeter clearance and that seemed to work well and I've tried it on a couple printers here and it works well so okay I'm going to line this wall up here now and I'm going to go ahead and snap that in and that holds like that and let's go ahead and do the other wall here and so you know you may have to play with it a little bit but once it does get in there you know it should hold nicely and then we'll go ahead and get the bottom plates in so foundation here go ahead and line that up and there we go so very satisfying once it comes together you can see there the front the side the back the side then it should hold pretty nicely I mean you know if you're getting your if yours is too loose or coming apart a little dab of crazy glue here and there should work but I've done a few of these in different printers and look I can like do this and it doesn't fall apart so still pretty sturdy pretty happy with the way it came out and then we can build a little village here so you can see all the ones I started making here and yeah I've got my little gingerbread town going but I need to stop building them so I can give them as gifts and that's how you build these so I forgot to mention this one actually did in woodfill so it's wood PLA wood fibers and PLA this is sort of it's one of the more lighter colors I've seen for woodfill but pretty nice so yeah got my village going I'm gonna be cranking these out today and tomorrow so you can see the printer is still going it'll be running all day and I hope you like my Christmas gift so have fun printing your own the files these are below where you can get the STL files to print them and if you want to play around with the fusion file those are making available to my Patreon supporters so if you want to support the channel I have a link down below where you can support the channel and get the fusion files as well alright guys I hope everyone has a very merry Christmas stay safe and have fun and I'll see you soon


Hi, I'm Andy Gojruv, Investor Intel. We're here on day three of PDAC. I'm sitting with Niko Kekos of Golden Arrow Resources. Welcome. Hi, Andy. Nice to be here. Thank you very much for coming. How's your PDAC been going so far? It's been fantastic. It's been busy, solid, so this is exactly what I'd like to see. What's the Chapman like in the silver market here? Silver is a great commodity and I think we're going to see silver come through the beginning of a great bull cycle in silver and this is just the very beginning now. Wonderful. How are your Argentina projects going? Argentina, we're very excited right now. We have a production, we have a new joint venture with SSR Mining. We are producing in production with silver at the Perquita Silver Mine and the Chinchillas deposit. Chinchillas is a satellite deposit that we're just going through the capex and construction phase and we expect to see that in the early part of the second half of this year, going to production and ramp it up and then make sure we should be in full production on that. When it's up and running, it's expected to be the 7th largest primary silver mine in the world. Can you give us a little update on the silver market for us? The silver market has been on up and down upswing and we're confident we're going to see a silver market that's going to begin to explode in the near term and the market is going to open up and we're going to see much better silver prices in the future. What we're also excited because this is a primarily silver mine, there's a significant byproduct, the zinc that we get out of it, about 20% of it. Zinc has been a great performer. We've seen it in the last year go from $1 an ounce to $1.50, $1.60 a pound and we're seeing that's adding tremendous value to our mine and I think our first few quarters of production at the end of the year are going to reflect that. That's incredible. Wonderful. And for your shareholders, what can they expect for the next quarter or two from Golden Resources? Well, what they can expect, we see that we've got fully permitted to put the construction in place. We're in the construction phase right now and as we begin trucking ore from Chinchillas to Perquitas in production, I think we're going to see that the cash flow is coming into our balance sheet and I think investors can expect to see some nice returns in the market reward us. Well, that's fantastic here. We welcome your time here. I know you're a busy man, so thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me.


I was just going over some things with I apologize Meetings rent one Was that any actual reason why you're late? Yeah, no, we were we were handling a couple things here You know we we signed Luther Kirk to our practice squad At least Elliott Fry released TJ Green and so we were going through and Meetings and then that obviously that's why I'm late What went behind the decision to release to get Well, there's a lot of things a lot of some things I'll keep in-house and we're very appreciative of the work TJ did there's some other guys and it's a very fluid situation as you guys have seen so we've been here and We've you know Moved a lot of guys in and out that's helped us on practice squad and We feel pretty good about the health of where we're going hopefully we get every Williams back we should it's turning in the right direction and Feel good about everybody else as far as Chris Williamson goes because he's now out of practice squad Elevations do you now bring him up? Oh? You know what we know as a week goes on Like I said, and we feel pretty good about where we're at health of our team right now, and so we feel like we'll have options at the end of the week I See You know we can't you can't come off the IR any earlier in three weeks like you just said so we'll see where he's at when we Get to that mark Well look it's NFL so different than Kale McGarry and that's life in the NFL, you know Nothing's more important than the health and safety of our players in this team And but that's why you have a team and and like I said, we have a lot of guys There's a lot of ways to get production Jason Sprig stepped up. We threw a lot of different guys at him outside I'd a played well means Cope those guys and there's a lot of ways to do it, you know So that's what it is. It's like an NFL and I don't sit there and say Hey, he's exactly going to be back here because it's always different, but obviously we already assessed I mean Dante played that whole game in London and We feel like this is best thing for him and then for the team. So we'll see where we're at after neurons So you asked about the TJ Green move and I really appreciate TJ there, but We'll see as we go on so I wouldn't use the word banged up everybody right now in the national football league It's a little nicked up. It's a it's a tough sport. We assess it. And like I said, we take every Caution necessary and we take it very serious, but we feel pretty good about what we're at health wise You take it all into account, right, and that's why you had the meetings That's why you know when you guys And I and I apologize for being a little bit late some of the meetings ran long. So At all things taken to account. Yeah, that's that's exactly what you're asking me. I just use different terminology there vocabulary, so Yeah, we feel pretty good about where we're at Look he helped us when I game and he came up and helped us win that game in New York And you never know it's never I said he's played a lot snaps and I'm very appreciative of he could be back He'd be back tomorrow. He'd be back in the future. I will we'll see Sure, you get in those situations and at some point you got to assess it and that's every game so We have the analytics and then you got ultimately I got to make the decision So if you it's so as a law of unintended consequences, I know what the numbers say we obviously in Washington game You saw a different thing at the end of the game. That was however the mask gonna be you know there Went for it didn't get it and we kicked it and then we essentially made them go for two, right? so Harry's it out. It was probably gonna be a two-point game either way and At the end right and that's a you know law of unintended consequences So you got to make a decision. So if you if you go for it go for two you don't get it Now they go up they got a decision made to go for two and it could be a three-point game. So You know we again or you get it obviously I reckon do the the simple math when it's 21 to 14 or 28 to 14 So There's a there's a great subjective argument when you want to start doing that and Jason points I think you saw it a little bit last night They had a similar thing happen any and then there's no perfect answer and that's what makes it fun We have the information and we talk about communicate it and then ultimately I got to make the decision But I feel it's best for the team at the time and so That's what that's what we felt and You get it depends on your plan how you're playing what quarterback all that goes into effect and We're a situation we had enough time to go down there and set coup up to kick a field goal You know It all goes together to you let and like I said we've That's it's gonna come down to you know situational football and you know in the red zone You know we played well in spurts. It's an area. We'll continue to improve on and that's it's a lot of games in the NFL Defensively and then really we got to help them offensively. We you know, we were productive at times You know, they had the ball nine more minutes and we did credit to Miami But there were some drives like we had some really good drives And then we had some other drives are pretty quick and that can add up and you know The one thing about playing down there That you can really feel in that field that humidity is real and so they did credit to Miami They kept us on the field a lot and That's I said, it's a tough mounted team as they get some good players and yeah We need to you know, we need to get sauce we can also as it all goes down the team Like we can also help offensively before that so you don't get to those those situations Absolutely Yeah, and Hawk made it I mean look the thing about the hawk interception, too It was a really good job by Dion getting some depth there and hawk breaks on it And you've seen a lot of DB's take it out hawk was smart. He went right down And so instead of sitting there running it and getting tackled at the two or three and then and then you're getting and then In the half you're in there trying to get a quarterback sneak to get some green rooms You know take a safety it allowed us on the 20 to take a shot to go get and we did and then we got down there and we You know, you were able to get three points right in the half get the ball right back coming out That's a 10 point swing Those are it's a great play ball. Great play by him and as a really smart decision by him not to take the ball out Follow the Washington game So you talk about what I said about at the end of the Washington game Me and the jet you said John's right. Yeah. Yeah, so you don't know when I said after the Jets win I got you There's a yeah That's what you pay to do. You're paid to make decisions. They always say there's no there's no victim is this thing It's what you signed up for and I enjoy it. I feel fortunate is how to have this job So yeah, I mean, I think you every Monday like whether you win or lose.  So you look there look at it. What can I do better? If we get in the situation what would I do different? It just so happened that it came up again and the Jets came over in London And so it's just at the time that's pretty similar and then we just Called it different It's ultimately the players don't want to make it play and you gotta give it makes it makes it go and they did a nice job We've been kind of kicking Have some struggles around the league this year. You know you were part of 10c team that Had issues I think a few years ago having a guy like young way. What does that do to maybe end game strategy for you? Well, like with all your players like you build confidence and We got a lot of confidence a young way That's not it. I said this all the time. That's not an easy position to break into this league. Most of those times those guys get cut There's a little cottage industry of guys in the West Coast There's an old team in mind and Charlotte's got his own kicking thing Dan or you know, and you just see it, you know, and it's a tough and you got to be tough monitor Those are specialty jobs, but you see a career path a lot of these guys that they bounce around and Then with some fortunately young ways here and he's the guy that's improved and we got a lot of confidence in them and Like I said there Of course you look up there. I had all the confidence words just like I did in New York He was gonna smoke smoke that thing in there and he did. I like that laugh at a celebration too From practice Like you said, I mean you have a ton of confidence in your way does that change Sometimes how you think of end of half end of game sure versus other maybe if you didn't have a kicker that you go I mean, that's that's part of the strategy to I mean no different in the Washington strategy, you know, and it's So it happens, but they get down there and you know, if we were able on that third down that Hineke rolled out and the guy leaked out late. They made a play, right?  I mean that there is some psychology there. So hey like Or they'll have more time to go down and say hey We you know, he makes it then we're gonna go back down just like we did yesterday and we'll set young way up But we got down there in field range and we had to throw the Hail Mary Yeah, certainly Yes, big play it was a big momentum plays, you know Marlon did a good job they He globs down him odd it comes free and odd he's got a lot of length No different than an aqua knocking the one pass down for Matt.  I mean a day. He's got a length That's a land of reference that's an Atlanta reference I'm just gonna ask you where you thought Matumbo could play in the NFL if anywhere Can we put him on the field going extra point block? So to Kimbe if you watch this We'll get Terry to work you out here tomorrow. See if you got you got one good jump in here So we can get one of those Yeah, I've seen that I've seen that when people played JJ Watt, so I've definitely seen that I think they show clips of that I think New England was doing it. Yeah You know Yeah, it's everything everything goes into it and understand where you're at Like I said, it's It's hard. It's easier said than done, right? Especially in today's climate Where everything is in your face you can open that that phone and you can find whatever you're looking for good bad or whatever To try to keep perspective it's the hardest thing to do We appreciate all the time If not overreact Whether things are really good or they're bad. It's that's neither one's really true Especially as you just sit there and focus kind of that narrow alley and never have your analogy You want to you got to be objective and just understand like can I look at this thing without too much emotion? Or you know you make a good good play or good, you know The guys get caught up in that stuff or that you know the negative stuff So that it's a challenge and the really good ones understand that and you can stay kind of on that on that narrow bridge so to speak and and that's a journey and you and you want to keep Getting better and you want to have a shot at the end So what we're trying to do now is to push through hopefully we can get get to a winning record. It's a visual game It's that we need to win at home. It's only our third Real home game. I know I'm London we were in Tottenham, but you know We're almost in November and it's our third one and but we need to go down there And we need to give our fans a reason to be excited And it'd be a big weekend around Atlanta. We want to be able to hopefully get a couple good braves wins and then we can cap it off Sunday afternoon form Well, it's the whole team They'll be ready to go. They'll be ready to go.  We know that I think a good skills skill guys outside Like everything, you know, so there's peaks and valleys and obviously they started the year really hot and It's a good at every game then it felt gonna be a challenge. It's a good football team really well coached and It'll be a big divisional game here Sunday Yeah, no, I mean you really grow up in Memphis with not a real allegiance to any proteins, right? You go up there and somebody's got an SEC allegiance Didn't have one, you know in my family and my dad went to Yale. My mom went to University of Memphis So, you know huge old Memphis State fan basketball wise and football wise Yeah, so everybody there is either a Cardinals or Braves fan Obviously Braves are really good in their early 90s, they're always on TV and In a playoff so I like it. I enjoy all sports. I Love that. I think there's always things you can learn from and it's really cool to watch what they've done And they talk about you know narratives, I mean, I you know, I remember a couple years ago I had a nephew that was graduating from the Naval Academy and I was up in DC And so I went to a Nats game and they were struggling I think they were 10 games or so below 500 and they're saying hey, they need to Have a whole wholesale change and trade everybody build it You know tear it down and then a couple months later they went in the World Series Braves same thing at doing a hell of a job at this good to watch team Overcome adversity and chip away. It's a long it's even longer season at baseball That mighty I can't imagine writing 162 stories Yeah, I got a lot of stuff for that and those it's a grind and then they kept chipping away and it's cool to see it It's a good I thought it was cool to see on the TV is how electric the atmosphere was And that's what winning does and so We need to get you know create our momentum create up a good home field advantage down in Mercedes Benz Yeah Are they doing pretty good, and we'll know more Wednesday throughout the week, but feel pretty good about you know again It's like when you ask this question. I know you got to do your job But we won't have a final answer, you know, we get through Wednesday Thursday and Friday But we feel pretty good, but that doesn't mean that something can't come up Things change. That's why I don't want to give you exact timelines because there's there's just too many variables that can happen, but we feel Okay, you're sitting on Monday feel pretty good about where they're at, but we'll see Like 610 611, I mean, obviously they're very rare, right, but could they could have got that big play Maybe anything other than like offensive line football or is there do you think there's kind of like well The odds are saying that they I would never count somebody out. I mean sometimes I know this like You know some of the battles we had with Kalea's Campbell and when he was in Chacksville There's certain times I felt like he was seven foot tall coming at you Certain guys that just have a lot of length As you talked about what like the guys that are really good at knocking the ball down I wouldn't I'll never count anybody out, but you know, they're historically there hadn't been a ton of guys that tall play Not counting you out to came back.