We're going to start in five minutes, I mean four minutes and a half now. We're going to start in five minutes, I mean four minutes and a half now. We're going to start in five minutes, I mean four minutes and a half now. We're going to start in five minutes, I mean four minutes and a half now. We're going to start in five minutes and a half now. Welcome to the next session of dream weaving presentations. We're starting with a brief introduction by David and Mona to the dream weaving process and going through everything again. Then we will have a presentation by Omar on city form and bio climatic design. We will go into a tea break and then we will have a presentation on urban planning and Orville economic ideals by Nicole. And so all this is going to be live streamed and but the live stream will stop after these presentations and Mona and David will explain why. And yes, so I'll hand over to them now. Yeah, welcome. So we have some COVID restrictions and a lot of people are not doing so well. Or they want to, you know, watch from home because their children are not well or want to take care. So today we have less people here, but we hope that those who are watching on online will be able to be with us. So this dream weaving session actually is the first session, the first formal session where we actually start weaving the ideas, which means that we will allow for each participant to have about 45 minutes to one hour to present and 20 minutes to present and then 25, 30 minutes to have a real feedback from the different participants. Before this, we have had a dry run about a week, week and a half back. And before that, we've had one dream catching session early morning, six to eight in the morning, where we had like about 18 architects. And today's session is going to be first with these few two presentations, which we had missed out or which we couldn't accommodate in the technical presentations that we had on the third, fourth, fifth of January. And so today we are going to have first those two sessions, which will be also as inputs, which the architects can work with. So these inputs are based, are there for the people who are going to actually actively participate to take it forward. And we have also separated like inputs and outputs. So there are people who are just going to be giving inputs. And there are those who will be giving working actually in a more detailed manner on the crown, on the full crown or part of the crown. And they will be getting a proper feedback. So this is the process for today. The whole idea today is that we're not going to live stream after the presentations have been made. Because one of the main pillars of dream weaving is to create a safe space. And because, you know, as architects, we are quite, how do you say, we are quite protective of the work we do. And it's quite, it's not usual for us to be in a space where we're talking about our ideas. And actually we're encouraging people in dream weaving to steal each other's ideas. This takes a little bit of time. Normally it's a very slow process. It's the first time we're doing it in six weeks, eight weeks. So we have to wing it. Actually, David and I are just kind of managing to figure out day to day because we are also not sure how exactly everybody's going to participate, how much work they're going to be able to do because everybody's very busy with their own. This just came all of a sudden. Everybody has other commitments. So this has been a great response, we feel, and has a lot of hope that we will be able to come up with something that is tangible and yet carries something of the poetry, something of our dreams and aspirations, something that is not just oriented towards fulfilling the technicalities of, you know, what a master plan does. So we want to be able to have this space today where we can have the architects just for themselves. And then eventually on the 4th and 5th February when we're going to have the larger session with all the people who gave technical inputs. Sorry. And all the people who have been randomly selected from the master list and several other perspective people will be there. So that time we will be able to live stream the whole process and we hope that then people can actually check in online. So with that I would like to hand over to David. He's going to clarify some questions maybe and some doubts that people have in mind regarding dream-waving. Yeah, David. Amon? Yeah. It's okay? Yeah. That sounds very strange. Okay. So yeah, I think between Mona and myself we'll try and cover different aspects of where we are today. We've been trying to put together a kind of frequently asked questions because we've understood that within the wider community there's obviously a lot of hope on what the dream-waving process is doing. But alongside that I think has gone quite a bit of misunderstanding in exactly what the dream-waving is compared to, for instance, to a detailed development plan, etc. So over the years there have been various attempts made to make detailed development plans in Auroville and for whatever reason they haven't really taken off or grounded or whatever. And so when Dr. Ravi came to Auroville in the middle of last year, she heard about dream-catching and she'd approached us to sort of look at how can we bridge where we are today to where we need to be in order to do the detailed development plan. And with the help of Doshi G's office in Ahmedabad they've been approached to actually do the detailed development plan. And the benefit of all of this, as I've explained a couple of times, we've basically got the Galaxy model, which is kind of the original vision that Roger and the mother worked on together. We have the master plan at various stages of development over the last 20, 30 years. And we're now looking, as we bring these things down onto the ground, we're looking to do the detailed development plan, which will give a framework within which Auroville can develop. And that framework obviously has to try and maintain its evolutionary character so that Auroville can continue to evolve over the next 20, 40, 60 years, however long it takes. But also give enough detail and enough information that we can actually be building things on the ground in the right place with the right infrastructure, et cetera, et cetera. So what we're trying to do with the architects over the next few weeks is actually, as I've been trying to describe it, we can see it as the poetry, we can see it as the choreography, we can even see it as the masala that's trying to bring the Galaxy model and the master plan together. To give information to Doshi G's office that they wouldn't otherwise have. I think if we see the kind of any sort of township of around 50,000 people that would be developed in India that would need a detailed development plan for an office of their size, it would be a fairly easy undertaking to do something like this. But because Auroville is so special and because the Galaxy model and the vision that Mother and Roger had is so forward-looking, what we're hoping to do with these dream weaving sessions is sort of provide almost like a grassroots input to that process. And that's also where Vastushilpa Foundation are very happy to be working with us with the dream weaving process. It's an amazing opportunity to explore not just what comes out as an output, but actually how we come with that output. The kind of this sort of community interaction which is very popular all over the world today. It's an amazing opportunity and to actually have a grassroots action that is comprised in this particular case, mostly of architects, is extremely rare and very unusual. So it's an amazing sort of potentially a win-win situation for everybody. So what we're actually looking at is some people have actually thought that the dream weaving is the detailed development plan. So no, it is not the detailed development plan. And the interesting thing, the shift from master plan through dream weaving to a detailed development plan enables actually the Auroville architects to come in with all of their knowledge of having lived here for many years in many cases. But in my case, for instance, when we were looking at the earlier dream weaving of Crownways, I have an awareness of urban design and an awareness of urban space, but I don't have that specific experience. So it gives the opportunity through this dream weaving process to weave all of these ideas together, pass that on to Doshi's office, to the Vastu Shilpa Foundation, where then they can actually tweak it across the T's, dot the I's, and make sure that the actual scheme works and how that would work then in a detailed development plan. And the hope is, of course, that as we move on over the next, the rest of this year, this collaboration will continue. So there's also the hope that this dream weaving process will simply expand and continue as time goes on. So that was my main point. Also, just in case people think that the Crownways proposal, of course, was a dream weaving, the result of a dream weaving process back in 2008. But of course, we're now 14 years later, certain parameters might have changed, and we have a completely different group of architects working on it. So people shouldn't expect that the final result will look anything like the Crownways proposal. We're looking for something completely new, and we're looking at the whole Crown. We're not looking at just one part of it. This was also a request from the Vastu Shilpa Foundation because they're trying to look at a detailed development plan for the whole of the township. They're not just looking at one area. The more information they can get from the different architects of Auroville, the more it will help them to work further on the different zones and things like this, because of course the Crown goes through the four zones as well as the four parks. So we have an amazing opportunity here to really touch on some of the essence of what those different four zones and what the Galaxy model represents as we move forwards into the future. So I just wanted to clarify a couple of issues there. I noticed Omar has arrived. I hope he's brought his presentation. And we can move on to that. Thank you. Thank you, David. We'll take a few minutes, I think, to set up Omar's presentation. So just to keep in mind, again, the gongs. So there will be a gong after 30 minutes, 45 and 50 minutes. And yeah, you have one hour including the Q&A for the presentation. So maybe I can read Omar's bio. Omar Rabi is the principal of Unitary Design, a holder of the Master of Science in Architectural Studies from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the Master of Science in Sustainable Environmental Design from the Architectural Association. He has accumulated educational and practical experiences in different regions around the world, from Egypt to the United States, India, the UK and Japan, where he has led design teams at Kengo Kumar and Associates. Omar is a holder of a few international design competitions awards. Moreover, he has been selected by the International Union of Architects to serve as a jury member in four international competitions, most recently in the Velux Award Daylight for Tomorrow. Besides his work in Orville, Omar has given lectures, participated in design studio teaching and reviews at Indian academic institutions, including IIT, Karagpur, CEPT and Sri Sri University. Moreover, he is currently a member of the Academic Advisory Board of Ashoka University School of Architecture. So I see it's working and with that I will hand over to Omar. Hello, good morning. Can you hear me? Yes. So first of all, you have to know it feels comfortable with the whole team except all the cameras. Yeah, but I told the citizens assembly group, guys, I usually sleep very late and I wake up at 10.30 and I start functioning at 10.30, so they wanted to really stress that they aren't charged, so they put me at nine. So all questions are welcomed after my coffee. Yeah? So, okay. So to start, city form and bio-climatic design, I think everybody expected that I am coming to very much speak about bio-climatic design issues and I am kind of bored speaking too much about bio-climatic design issues and the intention was always, I feel there is a misunderstanding because the word city form is the first in the title and the city form, I feel like with all the unending debates about issues of planning in Orville, I always felt like if there is some grounding, some understanding of the theory of city form, the discussions could be much deeper and I started this effort even with some of the youth in Orville to start having a serious lectures on these issues and it stops for now, it will come back again, so this is, I hope, can be considered that the more that we have an understanding of the origins of city and why the city take that form and that city take that form and what kind of social, cultural, economic, for forces that lead to them plus the bio-climatic, of course, the more that we have a deeper debate in Orville. So, yeah, next. So on the origin of cities, so let's just start with a very simple understanding that there are different theories on what makes a city start and here, when I talk about what city in this scenario, I mean the cities that self-generated in a condition in which there was no other cities, like what would be the first city in the Indus Valley, the first city in Egypt, the first city in Sumeria, the first city in the Mesoamerica. What kind of conditions would lead to this initiation and there are several theories, for example, the theory of surplus in which one of the major urban planning theoreticians were saying when there is agriculture enough for the people and there is a surplus of agriculture, then when city starts. And there is another theory, I think, by Jane Jacob, when she speaks about the presence of materiality. There is a material, for example, like the case of Satal Hayouk, Utoukan, I think, in which they find obsidian. They find material, the cities of very high value. Everybody's using stone and this beautiful black material that can cut through things in a much more swift way and then they export it and that leads to very high economy leading to a situation, the economy to lead to a city. And then there is the, and this is the theory that I'm most interested in maybe, and it's the latest of Kevin Lynch and I come from this tradition and he say, no, it's actually, you will find most of these cases when it starts with a spiritual center. There is a spiritual center, there is all of the temple cities. There's a spiritual center that leads to a specific situation in which there is clergy or there is a priesthood class and there is an elite priesthood class leading to the initiation of a city and this comes, many of these religious cities and let's see the next one, yeah, on the original city. There are three, these three different scenarios but then the question is, and here is the, because there are three, in our studies we know that there are, to understand different typologies of cities, there is what we call the three normative models of cities, the cosmic model, the machine city and the organic city. So in this lecture I focus on the cosmic mall city because I feel like we in Ottawa sometimes forget that we have a very peculiar case. We are actually a cosmic mall city that it is done in pre-industrial and this type of cities doesn't exist, it's actually existed in prehistoric times, it existed in medieval time and I think our understanding of that model is of high value for several reasons because you know the advantages of the model and you try to accentuate, but you also know the deficiencies of this model or what kind of experiences other societies had with this model to try to avoid them. And so these are two of these cities that are self-generated in different regions and both of them are coming, both of them are in a very different climate, in a very different situation. This is the city of Ur in Somalia and this is Tutokhan in Mesoamerica and you will find the first, the two belongs to the first model city which is the cosmic mall city in which it's a supernatural model in which there is a belief that the city itself is organized in a way to connect to divinity and there is an access money. That's in simple terms how these cities are initiated. But I am putting these two together because on one side you have very geometrical configuration in which there is a very clear access and there is very much, it's all about the connectivity between all of these monumental pyramids and on the other side you will find very not geometrical. It has all of these irregular streets which we always feel that these irregular streets we cannot recognize much in, this is what we call the cranky maneuvering roads that we do not recognize necessarily in modern planning as much but it started to recognize again in postmodern and we understand that in reality when you go in the experiences they have very much eloquent experience, the experience of Venice, the experience of Rome, the experience. But on the other hand, how about the geometrical model? It actually has another type of eloquent experience, the experience of this axis going to a monument. So these two models always existed but then the question is under which conditions would this exist and under which conditions would it exist and what are the advantages and disadvantages of each? Next. So this is the city of Ur and as you see we always have the axis mondi in this. So we always have the axis mondi in this type of city which means a center that is designed for spirituality and it represents connectivity to heaven or divinity and most of these cities start with a small chapel, small temple and then it goes to, there is a situation that leads to this economy, the clergy starts, the elite clergy starts and then it leads to this very, very dominant space at the center. Most of the time it is a space. Most of the time if we will go to Jerusalem to make, it's the space that it is holy and then there is a landmark in the space. And then, but then here, all the surroundings are allowed to, yeah, so all the morphology, the urban fabric is allowed to grow without much geometrical constraints which in most of these cases leads actually to very interesting situations because most of the passages going to this leads to these surprises. Sometimes you see this monument, sometimes you see that. So sometimes the allowance of this led to very interesting situations. Now the next, notice also the, come back, notice also the climatic because always the culture, and this is something we misunderstand, culture and climate, there are so much, all of the time in history you see them so much together as if the societies were growing their culture from the ground up slowly with the climate. Just burn it, yeah. So, yeah. So this is in Samaria in Iraq today and you see how all of these narrow roads and all the courtyards and all, you have to have a cranky path because the dust, so you will find in very dusty situations very hot climates, always the streets has to take these very natural and irregular forms to prevent the movement of the dust. Now next, yeah. Now how about the very geometrical because this is one of the cases when you'll find the capacity of a society to generate a geometrical gesture on a planning level, right? The previous one there is a geometrical gesture on architectural level but then on a planning level it is left to grow as it is. But in this case there is the deliberate effort to have an axis that goes four or five kilometers. We are talking a very, very huge promenade and all of the surroundings are all of these pyramidical geometrical shapes and one of them represents the this is the pyramid of the sun and this is the pyramid of the moon and I think the Suma line, the Surya line, it's also you find some relation to Indian Vasto and through the center it goes to the governmental and the commercial center and then it continues but then when, it's important to understand when these gestures were done and this is something that Louis Mumford has mentioned. He said when he looked at some of these walls and he have found some of the historical walls are 75 feet and he said there is no practical reason to want a 75 feet. It's not for defense and he said this very important statement that only for the gods man exert himself so much and so actually and this is one question that one of my professors did ask us, do you think you can interpret planning fully through Darwinian science? I think it's a very interesting question that through history we have again and again examples of trials to achieve immateriality but then what is important to understand what's the cost? So this is my message always to architects is to accept that with all of our rational thinking in planning today, what we have learned there are always been examples in which the immaterial exist in planning but there is, so see this is an introduction to also understand when you are working on a model like this you have to understand its consequences and try while you are working on it to avoid. So one consequence is that when you really work on a planning gesture of 5 kilometers anytime you see the same sequence, you exert materiality you exert energy you exert the economy as a consequence you exploit the human so many of these examples they signify models and models again of exploitation of hundreds of thousands of tens of thousands so how to when you are dealing with a geometrical model that comes from this type of a city then the question becomes to which degree you can control and to which degree you can offer design solutions to you do not end up going through that path so my message is accept because not all planning is what is the model planning taught in university but at the same time what to which degree what kind of an effort can be done to actually in that case I would argue the connection to the ecosystem is of the highest value because the model weakness is its incapacity to recognize the material the model strength is that it creates a very significant identity and feeling so we just compare between a city like this and Manhattan in which you go to the center of the city and it's all an expression of the economic forces right but a city like this that has identity has landmarks has clarity and the people feel in cities like this nourished in different ways so it has advantages and some theoreticians of planning even said we are missing something in modern planning there is something to learn from the cosmic model city but the difficulty of this is the exertion of materiality the exertion of energy and there are evidences of cities after cities in which archaeological cities I will show some in which cities like this lead to extension of societies because they thought too much about the material they forgot about water literally we have examples like this so next so yeah another click another very clear example of the cities of that model that another click the cities like that survived the main three cities of that model that survived Athens Jerusalem and Mecca and you will find their survivability came from they have the very strong Axis Mundi by the way Axis Mundi is most of the time either on a hill or in a valley does this make any sense the section somehow emphasize that point always on a hill or on a valley and you will find the city growing in a very natural ways or in a very practical ways but some of them still maintained the old streets so see some of these cosmic mall city did survive under specific conditions next yeah let's say when there is less control now with the cases when there is more control we see so the three cases of an Axis Mundi city in which the whole city is about this center about that center and each one of them has its own issues and problems but then there is one and this is maybe in a way a warning because when you see the case of Athens, the case of Jerusalem, the case of Mecca you can understand some parallel issue that could come with this type of a city because spirituality, religion I'm saying spirituality, religion because I know that the line between could be very thin you can easily move in between both but very much could be related to economic forces and especially if we are taking of today's terms neoliberal and of course when I say neoliberal I do not to clarify to some who wouldn't get the difference I'm not speaking about capitalist forces I think even if Adam Smith was here he would be against neoliberal in a way I would argue neoliberal dogmas but when you see these scenarios and this is I think a major planning issues for the designers that when there is not much understanding of the value and the relation between spirituality and economy you could end up with a big bin huge tower that almost dominate a spiritual city and this is somehow becomes a little bit of a warning when anybody is when any planner, when any designer is working on that type of a city, that model of a city they have to be very conscious of the possibility that because spirituality generate money and you have to be very and you do not want to stagnate you do not want not to allow the money but at the same time you want to regulate in a way through planning to assure that the spirituality of a space is very much intact and respected and that needs both political will and the consciousness and the awareness of the planners who would put the right regulations to avoid such scenarios now for my culture and these cities in this type of a city the cosmic mall city you find that there are big refinements and the two major cultures that has the highest and more elaborate cosmic mall city are India and China so the next yeah so and you see how much culture and very much culture understanding could really have an impact here and you can see that actually one of the most amazing tools to understand the culture is architecture and city because it's just a physical manifestation when you go to all the historical writings you will find that they represent different opinions and different thoughts and power while architecture is so difficult to not be honest and planning and you will find this is the forbidden city in China and this is Madurai and they show very different type of understanding of life and understanding of spirituality in which the case of the forbidden city and I hope not to cause any diplomatic another diplomatic issue between India and China with some officials here there is this very clear axis and compartments and you cannot go to the this is the axis Mundi the connection between the heaven it's not at the center it's at the end and you have to go through stir cases and there's a gate stir cases a gate do we have a pointer? yeah stir cases yeah okay stir cases gate until you get there and all of these all of these are walls so it's boxes inside a box you have the box and then you have another box another box inside the box is another box and there is a time at the evening time at the sunset time in which there is specific music and sounds and then everybody has to be in the boxes inside their own walls and they are only allowed to go outside early in the morning so the value of discipline the spirituality is very much related to discipline to order and you see when you make a city you have to understand that it is coming from your culture but it is also creating your culture it's the modern architecture you create your own house and then your house creates you now Madurai is very different Madurai you find it it has the the temple at the center but then you have all of these crowns basically rotation around and it comes from the rituals the rituals you have to go from the temple and you have to make all of these rotations so it's less of an expression of pushing for order and discipline and even control over segments of society it's more the relation between the spirituality of a place and all of the people so you find here there is even there is a class and I'm a little bit stepping outside my territory so please take it as the foreigner is trying to understand what is happening in India from a distance just like that and so there is a class of clergy a class of the Brahman and then they have to go outside connect to the people and come back but the people are allowed to go in and there is very little preventions it's actually always about a connection from inside outside and when you look at Orville you will find something happening like this because the whole design as it was initiated early is about the inside outside connection and this is for me was something to notice that it is part of the spirituality of India in general this in out connection yeah next so the question of degree of control when we are working on planning issues to which degree you can actually control it's very easy to control on architectural level because we do the design we produce all the detail drawings and then we build it but on a planning level where there are different lands different modules different plots different stewards different owners different designers different contractors different forces cultural forces economic forces all of this how to do that and the more you control the more you can in some cases create problems so the question is the question that I asked early to which degree you can have control and you see the successful examples where the Axis Mundi with very little control around it so let's I will show because we are dealing with this all long fight in Orville on circle and I give you four examples of circular cities and let's see what can we learn from them yeah next because I was surprised that in some of the discussions there was no circular cities but they do exist and there is lots to learn from them this is a city that I never was able to pronounce its name so it's in the south of Russia and it has this circular geometry and at the center there is this space that it is observatory to the sky and it's very much related it's the Axis Mundi it's a smaller scale so it's easier to control the geometry as you can see but it is one of the examples that we actually did see as when you work on a model city of the Axis Mundi the model city of the cosmic model and you try to control too much be very careful because some of these societies did extend so this is an example of that some of these societies did extend because they did not consider other issues and again this is not a call to avoid that to ignore the model it is the model we are working on but to say but that actually there is more importance to harmony with the climatic and topography and water systems next Baghdad not many people know that Baghdad was actually designed as a circular city and at the center there was either the mosque or the caliph house and then there is the open space and then you have always one of the issues of this typology that land gets more value the closer it is to the center so you will find most of the people surrounding the caliph would be living here and then the others and then the crown basically and in this case you see how narrow it is because this type of a climate which is the hot harsh dry has to have this kind of a situation but what we learned from here the first one we learned that in some cases you extend there is extension but in other cases you learn that it never stays so sometimes you try to control geometry but if you go today to Baghdad you don't even find traces of that so what kind of resilience when you work in a city that try to control geometry the question would be what kind of resilience what elements you need to to do so it live to it's not only achieve this achieved and it can live next and then I found this and I was trying to look for a modern example and I found one of the kippus I think called halal halala or something but this in this case it has a very different approach the approach was absolutely not spiritual it was social it was try to emphasize equality the symbol was the circle I think this example for me teach us something because this is exactly what we go to the next slide we will find that this is exactly what not the model of Orville was trying to achieve because the obviousness and clarity of the dig of a circular road has a very different experience than what we have seen in the vision model of Orville and I think one good way to get a sense of the experience because I did ask people who have been there and they were saying not so amazing experience because the because the road like this would always lead to the less connectivity between the two sides and it leads to a feeling of a vehicular road of course it's very low density but in the the fourth example I know which is Orville and in this case I think you can see that unlike the three previous cases you will find the clarity of the circular geometry is much less there is some ambiguity here and I think it's intentional ambiguity you can even trace you can trace that there is something that it is passing by and disappears on the building it passed by again and that actually create a very different sense of the experience in comparison to the previous one and I think one of the important things to achieve if you are going to achieve this model is to focus on this connectivity either the connectivity of the built environment or the connectivity of the environment on this side and that could lead to a very more interesting model in comparison to the three previous models that we have seen from prehistoric, medieval and modern yeah, next now the bio-climatic dimension and here is my trial to get bio-climatic to this theory of city form of course I did not mention much about the organic model I focused on the on the cosmic model I did not mention the mechanical and they both had a lot to learn from and I think at the end a successful city in the modern time would have still characteristics from the the organic and characteristics from the mechanical which is more efficient but the time I think wouldn't allow for it to go deeper but this is for another time so now the bio-climatic dimension next I get back to the origins of bio-climatic design and Victor Olgaie in the late 60s in which he produced the seminal publication design with the climate and he chose and he that was the first trial because modern planning fully ignored bio-climatic issues, fully it was all about infrastructure, the streets boxes of buildings completely separate if you look at the cases of Brasilia the cases of Chandigarh in which very little very little sensibility towards the climate at the same time Victor Olgaie was a modernist but at the same time he was trying to bring some understanding of bio-climatic issues and he comes with this hybrid I would say, it's still very modernist approach, still you can see all of the separations between the streets and the streets separate from the building, there is very little urban fabric especially in the case of the hot and humid but at the same time he tried to follow some of the bio-climatic design principles and in these two scenarios he actually made what would be a model city in the modern time, in the hot and dry, in the hot and humid, in the cold, in the temperate and I here would say I only selected the hot and dry and hot and humid because they are the two that could impact our design in Auroville while the temperate and the cold are a little bit further so you see the one thing that distinguishes hot and dry is that you will find the creation of internal courtyards, internal micro-climate basically or internal cool spots and there is orientation because in all modern yeah thank you so in all modern architecture you will find some orientation orientation is the very major and most of the time it is to the south most of the facade will be to the south and to the north and you will find all of these opportunities once you have a volume mostly on south and north you are having a very favorable energy situation because most of the energy, most of the solar radiation will come from the east and the west the most difficult to protect while the south is, the sun is very high it is very easy to protect with an eave and the north has very little direct solar radiation so you will find some kind of orientation in this scenario but less of importance when it comes to the tropical hot and humid, always the hot and humid is the climate with the highest importance to achieve orientation because the sun is very high, the sun is very difficult to protect from other than the south and the north and also in many cases you will find the direction of the wind like in Orville would be compatible with this so the favorable direction of the wind in Orville is the southeast, southwest a little but more the southeast and you can orient a building to be very much stretched on the east west axis and then it works but but then if, and this is not a push for this, it's almost a critique but then when you look at the proportions and the buildings in the hot and dry you will find less importance to orientation they have the same size on the two sides here so there is very little orientation but it's more about the creation of these internal spaces while here you have to open and you have to have more spaces and more both open or transitional spaces like that kind of a space outside these kind of covered spaces that could really lead to a much better climate but then this is also for me a critique for this because I was so fascinated by this approach at the beginning and then I come but that doesn't lead to unnoticing city if you fully do a city through orientation you always end up with a city of one orientation a city of too much regular and it's not nourishing and it's very difficult actually to achieve that so but then I look for other examples and I next and I look at the vernacular because this is the modern approach when I look at the vernacular and these again the same two climates and suddenly there is zero orientation and this is when I feel like this is to me a more interesting approach and for Auroville I would feel we can learn from this a lot because the possibility to achieve orientation in a circular city with all of these multiple orientations so what is the other approach the other approach if you cannot achieve orientation which bring all of these advantages microclimate and you will find historical architecture and vernacular cities managed to achieve enormous results without much orientation through the concept of establishing a completely different microclimate now how did this happen this is one of the North African cities and you see the hot and dry climate the temperature is 55 degrees is 50 degrees is 45 degrees you cannot do it without all of these very small and narrow corridors and very much walkable very much the experience is amazing actually when you walk in these cities and it keeps rotating and changing its direction and avoid the dust any air that goes inside cools because all of these surfaces are cool because of all the shading and gradually when they move they cool slowly and so the crankiness is a very much a bioclimatic advantage and then even the shapes of a plaza you find it's almost hard to achieve maximum shade so always the proportion of the buildings the proportion and it's all about either narrow paths or cuts of courtyards and this proves to be working amazingly climatically now when we go to something this is in South Sudan and we look at something in the hot climate hot and more humid and you will find it's a completely different configuration that it is designed for the air because when you go to the more hot and humid you will find that the most important aspect is the air by the way not only not all of it is a little different and we will come to that but the pure hot and humid always is about air and you will find all of these circular geometries all of these circular huts always have spaces in between right and if you find all of these geometries are actually almost designed to allow for this flow of air and circular geometries when these huts are open they let air go but when they are closed circular geometries spin air flow so you know when a car has all of these geometries and the air spin around it right so that it has an aerodynamic qualities to it that makes it spin and here why they designed this because the most important life happened in the in between spaces so the life of these villages most of the women with the kids the men are doing this are always happening in spaces in between and we always find in cities and in human built environments that the designers the builders would put more emphasis on transition spaces when the life of a society is in between while it is more on internal spaces when the life is inside the space now what would be the case of the crown I think the crown is mostly about the life than the building itself so it's something that we can look at when there is a design on the crown you are focusing more on the transitional spaces because most of the life happening how many cafes in order will happen inside space all the cafes are shade so it's all about the creation of transition space of covered of the no sun solar radiation and very good air flow now this doesn't necessarily so I wouldn't feel very disappointed because it's actually when you look at the visual model it's confusing because you have no orientation at everything I tried to make a study of the sun and I couldn't because oh my god every single step I have a different angle so but then you think you shift your thinking to microclimate you shift your thinking okay we do not have orientation what kind of general rule can I achieve and then the proportion becomes the highest of the highest importance this is why I have been emphasizing the proportion of the street the proportion of the street because you do not have orientation you are always having an infavorable situation because you are always changing orientation so focus on creating a microclimate that could create to a better climate next this is the 30 right yeah good very good so so now the a little bit scientific a little just a little to understand climates we use one of the most let's say rigorous graphs is the psychometric chart because it has all the data you have on at least on one side you have the temperature and then you have this these lines are the humidity and then these lines are the this is the dry bulb temperature this is the with bulb temperature I won't go through details but they just give you the idea the more that you go up in this region you have more humidity the more you go in that direction you have more temperature the more you go here you have less temperature so imagine a cold climate Montreal will be somewhere here most of the dots the dot represent a reading of temperature humidity dry bulb with bulb all at the same time so Montreal if you have all the points here to simplify it will be the cold climate if you have most of the dots here and it goes above 40 but it has less humidity it's most of the time here here or here in extreme cases or here that will all be the hot and dry the hot and dry also would be always extending a little bit because it goes very hot and very cold when you have here here you are having more towards the hot and humid right so when you look at the the climate of orville the climate of Tamil Nadu you will find it is initially the first vision will be oh it initially feels like hot and humid but there is something because most of the because you can go into and this is something that took me some time to understand you couldn't you can go through the problem of create a problem when you define it it's hot and humid go to the textbooks and find the textbook solutions for the hot and humid it's not always going to work because why next because the textbooks are designed for this hot and humid the textbooks are designed for Bangkok for Florida for Malaysia Thailand it is the very pure case of the hot and humid the very pure case of the what we call more accurately warm and humid the very pure case always has temperature that goes a little beyond above 30, 32, 33 maximum but all of the time it is humid so in that scenario the importance of air it's all about it's all about air and you want very low thermal mass all the time low thermal mass would work day and night right temperature is not high let the air go all the time right now next no back back oh there is one slide ah yeah now you are right next next yeah so usually as I was saying this kind of climate which is the pure warm and humid doesn't close you find all of the buildings are designed on stills like this the life mostly happens here all are open the planning fabric the urban fabric is very sparse you want a building you want a space you want another building you want another space you do not want to bring them too much beside each other when you even design a house you want to separate the kitchen from the living room the kitchen will bring all of these fumes all of these humidity you do not want them together it's all about separation and links so very low thermal mass we mean by low thermal mass very light building high thermal mass these heavy buildings that take temperature and store it and bring it back to you at night next what's the difference is this the difference between the typical climate that exists in and this is why I'm becoming more and more not interested in textbooks of bio-climatic because it took me some time to get there but because they come to something like this and rarely they resolve these issues and that's why you have to study really climate by climate so the difference is this is the case that we have seen of the pure hot and humid but then you have extreme heat so actually if we think about the temperature and order value we'll find that when it comes to humidity it's closer to the hot and humid most of the time but when it comes to temperature the temperature significantly increased beside the typical limits of the hot and humid the typical limits of the hot and humid is the design temperature is 32 while here we have a design temperature of 39 design temperature we mean we cancel the 1% extreme so if Orville for example get to 42 but this is the 1% extreme the design temperature will be 39 so that difference is huge and and then you could come with a different result I actually would conclude that the low thermal mass would still be the best to sleep because at night the temperature will drop 5, 6, 7 degrees the air flow any building with low thermal mass will be fantastic to sleep it would be fantastic at night but workplaces I would argue that in some cases a heavier building that protect from this high temperature would work better so in some cases and then you can choose either you have a building with adaptive opportunities that can be heavy and light which could be very tough to do or you can select based on the function what is light and what is what is heavier what is light based on the time that it is used mostly next so and this is why I always you know why this research because I was always saying low thermal mass low thermal mass everywhere because this is what the books say but I look at the vernacular architecture in the region and I find the kaccha and the pakka and the kaccha is very light it's heavy to some degree and I'm like but I know that vernacular architecture doesn't do it wrong the pakka that model doesn't exist in Malaysia doesn't exist in Indonesia I know that these are thousands of years of experiences and it is impossible that they got it wrong and I'm like no no no we got it wrong there must be something missing and I came to this and I see that they do so some of the characteristics of the hot and dry exist in hot and humid I think one researcher one major in in barclay I think Zoukoli has really went through this and I said oh there is a proof that some of the heavy mass buildings has some advantages in this hot and hot and humid climate but with with variation it will not be the exact same courtyard that exist in the hot and humid in the hot and dry that will exist in the hot and humid and there is no proportion it has different solutions and when I looked at this I think there is something to learn in our design practices in Auroville next. So you will find that for example on a plan level and on a section level let's see some differences of things that they have seen in the court in these solutions so see urban fabric these are buildings that are touching each other that have certain density and you can achieve certain density but the problem will be the air so how to deal with this a plan level, porosity. Porosity. Recently I made a comment on noticing that in Tamil Nadu even people spontaneously make door after door after door after door after door. And that was a cultural comment because we know that always climate leads to specific cultural understanding. So you, because when you align these doors, you are creating the sense of porosity to create airflow. Now interestingly in climates like this you will find people automatically have less comfort with privacy. They are more open to, like, like the climate has an impact or more acceptance to sound, which is a problem we have in Orville because we come from different culture to a climate that actually asks you to accept sound. Because the only way is to accept sound because the air moves with the sound. So, so, but this, when you go to this culture you will find that the opening. You cannot, has anybody seen heavily in Rajasthan in which it has this alignment? I didn't see, I didn't see in Cairo. You will find people naturally to avoid this situation of a dust coming and a hot air coming. They will shift and they create these kind of entrances. As you see, the climate is leading to a cultural situation. And then what happens? So on a plan you can create different types of porosity. I mean the modern architect has the right to see in the current situation how to really take idea like this and elaborate in all kinds of forms and ways. Now what happens on a section level? You will find that the courtyard is there, but the roofs are aerodynamic roofs. This is, there's something we call kawanda effect. Who knows? You know when you have a ball like this and you have a drop of water, the water will touch the surface of the ball and rotate, right? Why? Because once the drop touch the ball, it creates a different pressure. There is less pressure on the inside than the outside and then it push in that direction until it falls. So now how about air? When you have a roof like this, the air touch the roof will create that difference of pressure. It goes down. So you can of course also create a situation in which you have these roofs to get the air down as the wind catcher you can find. But just I'm opening doors when you think you are thinking heavy and dense environment, a combination of a dense environment, by the way dense I could, it could mean dense of urban fabric. It could mean dense of nature and it could mean a mix of both. But it has to have intensity and density to create the microclimate. But with the cuts in the plans and the sections and the aerodynamic roofs to create this kind of an inside flow. And I think a combination like this, if we'll shade it and have density and good air flow, it could lead to a very favorable microclimate. Initially I would say something. Next? Okay, good. So I took this from the study of Helmut and Billinger. And I thought it's very interesting because it has, it is yes, a study on mobility, but it has, it is very compatible with bioclimatic design studies. So when he said the crown could be like this or like this. Because he has seen the crown as a changing phenomenon, a changing experience. And sometimes it could be a pass between heavy trees and sometimes it could be very, I think this is Germany or somewhere, but I wouldn't have a big plaza. I would focus on more paths and smaller plazas. And if there is a big plaza, it has to be shades. But he was speaking about street life and street life could be having lush nature or could have intense situation of built environment or both, or it's a mix of both. And I feel like it is, it resonates by climatically because this is exactly how to create a microclimate. And this is exactly how to create. This is absolutely a microclimate. This here absolutely is a microclimate. So again, the intensity of density somehow, either through nature or through, and to accept that sometimes it's nature, sometimes it's building, sometimes it's weave between both. Next. Well, going back to Roger, because I thought I always go and try to look at the original design. It's almost a professional position. If we come, for me, if I come to a place, there have been plenty of work. I like to look at it and see what we can learn from it. And this is one of the trials, and it shows, because I'm looking for the sketches that represent some path for bioclimatic solutions in a way. And this was a sketch that was done for the Nebula. And it shows, this is for me one of the examples in which there is really a microclimate situation because we said it's either intensity of a tree and ecosystem and nature or intensity of buildings. And I understood that he was very fascinated with that North African and Mediterranean cities in which you have all of these narrow alleys and then you go up and then you go down and you do cannot recognize if you are up or down. So this I see as this intensity, it seems like there is, it shows that there was not very little, mostly thinking of connections of pedestrian movement than anything else. I would only object to the emphasis of the movement on the upper level. From a bioclimatic point of view, I don't think this would work. I think what would really work is to create a situation of multi-levels fine, but from a bioclimatic point of view, the main movement is down when it is really shaded and when there is, especially if there is enough gaps and well targeted gaps to create airflow. So again, this is just, I'm putting it as an example in which I look at it, I see microclimate, I feel it. Next. And then you will find this and I looked at this again and it shows how, for example, again the emphasis of this very, the path that goes and it's covered and it is shaded and it is, but then how to, so the question is how to shade, how to create a situation which is shaded either with buildings or in some cases trees or so, because these are indication of buildings, it could be indication of shades, it could be indication of platforms and how all of these could work, how this, because it shows a situation of the intensity, I'm speaking about, either intensity of ecosystems coming or intensity of buildings and shades. I think there is a possibility to create microclimate in these situations, especially when you recognize the air direction and start having porosity in the direction of the air. Next. This is the problem statement to the dream weaving because with all of the elaborate examples that we have seen in all of the intricate paths, all of the shades, all of the intensity of the microclimate, all of this, we are today in a situation in which there is an infrastructure plan and next and when we transform the infrastructure plan directly to architecture, this is the space left for tree which basically mean you cannot have heavy vegetation here, here, here, if this is spread in this way and this is 16.7, this is the carriageway. Next. So when I did this, transform this simply to architecture and I allowed the tree only in this kind of a space and I started studying the height of the buildings according to our understanding G plus 2, G plus 3 and then see what kind of sun situation we have and I find of course in June when the sun is very high, you have a majority of the streetscape, you have only tree here which is very close to the building which means that it has very little success shading the street but it has very enormous success preventing sound, it's not with no value, it has preventing sound from that building. So these buildings actually are in a way if the trees are aligned so close it is good for the building but it has very little capacity to cover the solar radiation here but this normal usually in June 3pm, by the way when we say 3pm you have lots of sun, 12pm of course you will have anyway lots of sun, that means that from nine, three nine, that means from nine to three you have six hours of very much solar radiation exposure next but what worries me is March because always we look at the equinox as the middle case. When you have June is the highest case but March is the middle case and when you go and you do studies in March you know that majority of the year you have major sun exposure so this is a problem statement with this kind of a situation when you have enormous sun exposure in very hot climate in which the temperature comes to 42 but the design temperature is 39 what to do and this is when we say there should be some system of engaging inside and I think when Helmut in mobility said in assured mobility space when it is designed for the pedestrian streets can even be at the middle of the street because it's actually help you already have a shared mobility system because the when you say slow cars 15 km per hours and mainly pedestrian that means by default shared space it means a space that is shared between the pedestrian and the cars and the small scale cars but with domination of the pedestrian in that case even when you have some landscape and cityscape inside the street it actually make the car only slowly move around it becomes a physical way to slow down the cars even while maintaining geometry it's not changing geometry it's just changing the movement of the car and and and this could work with the bio climatic because you can allow for some ecosystems to come inside but also allowing for possibilities of shading because who said you cannot have light shades you can have some systems to to to have functions in this streetscape so how to and this is for me a problem statement you are having a situation what can you do to establish a new situation in which two things micro climate is acceptable because by the way this is an understatement because this is only saying as if this is the ideal orientation remember this is rotating so it's the sun is not only coming from the section direction it is coming from all from the angle also from the angle so you are talking about a street that it is two things you need a micro climate that it is much better based on all the studies I have shown but also you need to connect remember the issue of connectivity and all the this type of a city in which there is in-out connectivities like the the city of Madurai in which people go outside to connect so this connectivity from inside to outside you need to establish this so this is a design a design problem you have to find a way to solve next one another problem is the issue of the ridge I am not sure I was asking yesterday this is the ridge right the ridge will be more like this you should you told me yesterday this so so yeah so so you it's correct right this is the north okay but but this is the lowest right you go lowest here this is the important part for me this is the industrial zone this is the lowest right and then this is so the if the air is coming more from this direction and you have the lowest here you have one issue because this this part of the crown is easy to get air to while that part of the crown could be very difficult you have the air up so one thing you need this is another statement problem you have part of the crown that it is very down while the air because it's an it's an a wind shadow zone you have the air up what kind of means you can do to bring it down and and next yeah I'm finished yeah next so one thing I I like to do in this exercise when we look at at a model like this is to not to look at it all at once because go back again I think we we forget we keep looking at the totality of geometry which is we see to which degree I mean only time would prove to which degree something like this is possibility to have a totality of geometry over that scale right but at the end cities are experienced as a collage not as a classic painting right so next so one exercise I would like to do is to start cutting pieces and start imagining what kind of experiences would happen in a space like this and to see to which degree a design conception like this could inspire some principles because I always say you know what are the what is the essence I'm not for completely ignoring the story or completely applying it's always the question what is the essence what can you learn from this and then how to bring it to reality the grounding the grounding work so what is the essence of this and what's the essence of this and what's the essence of this and one thing and how this could relate to the climate again the situation of intensity here again the concept of connectivity you have this feeling of urban building connectivity how this can be achieved and and I only I like to take it like this connectivity how can I achieve it how is it doable in the current situation to achieve with the topography with the with the water with this so connectivity here by the way is already if you assume that these mega structures are there you have no problem at all with the macro climate that this is over shaded and lots of wind will go will come in so so but but you I think it would be a very big mistake to design assuming they are there because even if they are there one day you don't know when and you I think part of the design is to design assuming phasing and you have to assume no we are not so protected by these we are having a situation that it is difficult it has very the air is up we are down very little capacity to shade and we have to get some wind now what can we learn from this this is to me one of the examples I keep looking and repeating that it is misleading to say it is very much a mistake to say the crown is all about this connectivity because there are several areas in which you see even the conceptual design is really clarifying that there is an ecosystem connectivity so these could be very light structures and they could have trees coming because if this is a park and by the way the park forest what's the difference between the park and the forest I mean that the in cities we do have very elaborate ecosystems inside cities we have Thierry Garten in Berlin we have Amstead Heath in the UK in London we have Roppongi in Tokyo we have very elaborate system the difference is that it is designed on the ground level to have more accessibility to the human experience but that doesn't mean canceling a very elaborate ecosystem it is just accepting the ecosystem that belongs to this ground and transform it into a park because it has more accessibility but the park experience should continue because you have to be able to walk the crown without feeling there's interruption in the experience but you have also to walk the park without feeling that there is interruption and and how to achieve this if you actually accept that there is nature coming within the the the streetscape it's not completely separate this is a harsh vehicular street and this is achievable it's not not achievable and you can I am also against those who are saying we completely interrupt the crown experience no no the crown experience should also be continuous so and this is for me a design exercise and it's a choice always do you want to deal with it as it's a conflict and you have to choose one or it is a good design opportunity for innovation in which things are happening on levels things are happening and there is this connectivity between the two intersections I would select always that it is not a conflict it's a design imaginative exercise cultures on one thing when I find sudden change in in geometry first of all if you actually manage in reality to achieve something with that density which I don't think is that possible this is a very indicative mass model you will have an ease with the with the ecosystem for sure because because you have a very shaded if there is porosity if it's a combination of heaviness and porosity but what if but this is not this this is a mass model at the end there will be shades there will be trees there will be nature also there will be a mix of buildings and nature but but what we can learn from this is the change of geometry the change of geometry means change of light and shade situation and this is so this is what I mean by essence if you see something like this you could say ha the cultural zone has a different nature of geometry that could lead to a different nature of sun shadow situation that's it and if it has a difference a 90 degree building has a specific feeling a 120 degree building has a different feeling a smooth curve would have a different feel just if you focus on this that when you move from this zone to this zone from this area to this area it feels different that there has a very different geometrical code just just a trial to see what can we get from this next I think I will cancel next I mean no back this is the last one so the same I said here is here and is here so I see and the same I said with the built environment connectivity you'll find it's in somewhere somewhere else so so if you see it why I am saying this because I see it as an advantage also for the bio climate it's a city form that has a bio climatic advantage it's not only it's a spiritual it's this is when I feel the material meets the immaterial you have in one case is the possibility to have intense situation of ecosystem connectivity and you have in other cases possibility of having a sense of built connectivity could be light shades could be nothing could be be very simple elements and and and and it doesn't mean that it is that rigid it could be in some cases this is cut with something this is cut with something but if you have this duality of in-out connectivity and it is done in a way to protect for the sun as much as possible while there is porosity to bring air I think this is one way to get some favorable climatic micro climate situation next and then at the end I felt like I have to put these two together because at the end of the day it is the real challenge I mean I have been showing what we can get from this exercise but at the end why why all of these linear elements are going in that direction because there is topography and always in all the cases that we have seen for the cosmic model city you will find most of them were really able to control geometry because they were flat most of the cases we have seen the cases in the from the Mesoamerica to Sumaria to most of these cases are flat and once you have a situation in which there is topography and there are people living here and anything you do is impacting what's happening here there is a topographical element and then this becomes the real and guys good luck I mean I it's a challenge in which it is very tough I have no idea and and how how these geometries can come with something like this with these natural systems but but I think one of the problems that I have seen in Auroville is that lots of work happening here and lots of work happening in exploration of geometry exploration of geometry and very little effort to investigate to which degree this exploration of geometry can fit this and to which degree this can have some elements of the qualities of this and to me this is a closing statement in a way because when we say we come together we come actually to come to that challenge that was because of the grouping didn't happen much or very little happened happened of it it feels like we are more comfortable working on that level we are more comfortable only exploring geometry and and we're working on that level but they have to meet if they do not meet it will not happen anyway if they do not meet it will be at every single point you are doing something and you discovered oh I'm cutting water system it leads to a problem I need enormous amount of money to do it because it's against the natural system is against the topography the only way is to find this kind of a space and to have the courage to come and meet and see what of this and then you can define what is the essence what elements can be achieved not everything can be achieved what elements can be achieved what elements cannot be achieved yeah thank you questions after coffee okay questions before coffee I got all of the energy I have we do have time for a few questions you think we can take a few yeah so everyone let David know if you have a question and he will write down the names just a point on the bio climatic the light structures and the heavy structures and how it how from my experience and what I've built it works yeah from from where my experience and for that what I've built is what you are saying correctly that you have to have a mix of of everything actually in Tamil Nadu yeah here normal so the light structure to sleep under and the heavy structure to to live in and what I felt works very well is you have spaces which can open and close absolutely and be shaded so you minimize the solar radiation of course the solar impact and then keep your structures light but keep them also so that you can open and close them and that somehow seems to work so it's it also helps for the noise so when it gets to noisy you close and you have a fan okay just as a comment yeah you are right one of the most major issues in bio climatic design is what we call adaptive opportunities that you and the more it is simple it is doors that we can move ourselves and we can change its angle the best it is the more it is mechanical and confused and and technological the worst it works actually so you are right it is just that you have to remember that no matter what you do when you say I am gonna ignore the heavy mass and I am going to depend on operable multi-layered openings because what you are describing is something that includes glass and it has to include mosquito mesh right that's the minimum too right and then and then with glass and mosquito mesh it's not enough protection from the sun unless you have very big eaves and it's very well oriented and if you are for the for the situation here in which you have to orient east and west right and then you cannot really protect so it becomes extremely difficult to achieve an expensive and it will never no matter what you do will be equal to the mass that has very good insulative capacities no matter what because this is glass glass has very little capacity to insulate so still I it adaptive opportunities are fantastic but I don't think it is enough to to to cancel the need of thermal mass in many cases yeah yeah Omar thanks so much I was so interesting um I have several comments I'll try so one thing is again taking off from what Dorle said I feel we have to get away from this idea that you know there are bedrooms and living rooms and kitchens and I think the modern lifestyle and also the way we design um like what I've discovered like I'm a nomad in my own house because I keep on shifting my space of sleeping and working as per the climate so terraces for example to sleep in summer where we have a still the possibility in you know in a place like horrible to do that would be very important secondly having just lightweight structure sometimes I find it's a bit cold like in this time I would find it cold like right now I'm sleeping in a dome and it's perfect but I wouldn't sleep in a dome in summer or in the intermediate time you know so one good example where which I was um haven't really replicated but I think Ajit's house in Samasthi tried that what he did is mass at the bottom and as you go up and he has the sleeping like lightweight pavilion on the top and but again he has to shift like lightweight pavilion which is like will not work if it is you know fully in the winter time I at least that's my experience so I think this idea of of changing spaces like this fixed idea this is bedroom this this is also very architecture right I don't think I don't think society's worked like that you know actually originally this courtyard house that you showed no people use the courtyards to sleep and do a lot of activities and you see that even at an urban scale in Ahmedabad this is very famous example of Manik Chak which changes use as per day and night so daytime it is something else and nighttime it's a bazaar you know and daytime so this kind of things we have to change our thinking a bit um the other thing was uh Victor Olga you said um Design with Climate there's another very interesting book I don't may perhaps you heard of it Thermal Delight in Architecture by by Lisa Heijang so that's a really I mean I think that kind of breaks this because I think like Design with Climate was also written at a time when modern architecture you know was having all these principles you know but we I think we've moved beyond that we have realized that we are missing the sensual the sensuals the immaterial what you call the intangible and all these have phenomenological aspects yeah exactly the phenomenological so you honey palasma etc would be so that was I found would be interesting and the last one is about rituals so when you give the example of of the Madurai thing Madurai temple and the and the and the lost forbidden city and lost forbidden city I I want to just say that every ritual requires order and discipline you know whatever it is wherever you go and also in within that Madurai you know or any other complex or even all the temple cities there there is a lot of order and discipline in that it's just that in India we always manage to combine the two in a very flexible loose manner yeah it wasn't so it wasn't rigid and I always find this very interesting as we design also as architects you know this this rigidity this thinking this mental patterns that are so set in our mind especially with the kind of education that we have we have to break those and Auroville does that very well if you stay here long enough and if you you face all the challenges that it gives you it kind of makes you realize that this is not going to work like you said you know you don't go by textbook anymore because it just doesn't work you have this combination and everything I think it's very I thought that was important also to there's much more but yeah I found it really interesting thank you so much I will definitely not comment on any comment you said about temples and rituals I take it from you the but I the first point you have made is very interesting because this is where a biochlamatic design is today at the highest level of academia they are saying we used to be very adapted in our houses when you look at the Malay house with all of these surfaces and people sleep and live and and do and they change it when you look at the old houses in some of the cold climates in which they were sleeping in some place in the summer and then when the winter comes they go up and they bring the animals to live on the ground level because they generate heat going up and you will find people actually used to because why because they didn't have electricity and they didn't have all the mechanical means and this completely a shift because we feel like we can do whatever we can because we have technology to count to counter it and but we're discovering after 50 years of trying technology that is actually the problem it is leading to the erosion of the chances of life on organized civilized life on this planet because we think we can control but the we need to go back to the to some sense of there are if you don't use energy technology unless needed and these are one of the ways we adapt we live in harmony with nature yeah yeah thanks that looks quite to the force yeah so there's not really a question just also for me it's a reconformation that when you see it's all a question also what you just said about finding the middle path or a finding a balance of things when I see your direct the examples of direct implementations of rigid geometric systems they're very hierarchical which is something which maybe human unity is in conflict with I don't know and on the longer run they most often lead to either they vanish like in the case of Baghdad or they they get extinct and disappear completely and for me it's always when I look again at the galaxy and I'm I'm always really is it really something which is God given or Rochette given is it a one is to one implementation when especially when you zoom in but when I zoom out it's so intricate there are so many possibilities and for me it's not one of these these very rigid systems it's also not limited to one circle no it has this movement which goes in and outside and flows and that makes it really so I really wonder about I always wonder when this transition happened from from that wide open vast vision to what what then the master plan tries to express on a technical level so we still have to get to terms with that no both of them are there for for I talked to you about it for me what would be really interesting would be to see a bioclimatic study of this galaxy model and see what happens if you have a strong southeastern wind which comes in and with all these shapes of the lines of forces what kind of whirlwind we have inside is it great does it lift us all up so that would be something which I wish we have a computer model for I have a little answer for this but first the the first part of the question I mean if if we have an answer for this question that easy we will not be here right it's all would be but the we have to keep trying you just have to keep and this is the aim of these kind of lectures to me is never to elevate to cancel the bits it's actually to make the debate deeper and I was always saying knowledge doesn't make you disagree it just makes the disagree more tolerable to other opinions or other other our other visions because you know that it is grounded in in something so yeah it is just continue trying and I think the beauty of design is that it always can find a space between function and beauty between climatic and and and efficiency and and and you can try to we try through design and see yeah but the the second one I had a conversation I had thought about this a lot and I had a conversation recently with one of the vast shell patim JD and he has good experience with this he's coming from very rigorous place SOM in which they were doing lots of simulations and and he said something and I think it's absolutely correct because I forgot to put it but all of my studies in London on the work of Norman Foster London one London in which all of these geometries are really impacting airflow so you will find this building the helmet the air is very little before it's like two meter per second one meter per second point five meter per second behind it five meter per second just because the geometry spin the air so much so we know that from different experience and I spent almost three months with anonometers checking these things we know that buildings could have enormous but G deep think and I think he's correct mostly not in this case because the porosity this works when you are having a situation of curtain curtain glass for example everything is solid and then there's really turbulence happens but most of the studies and the thoughts on this would say this is a shade and then there is a building another building another building so it's more local that there will be a pressure and then it rotates around the cases in which could work I think if these for example parts of these are solid and they are really up because this is the upper part definitely they can they can be you can use them you can use them as wind catchers that they get the wind from here bring it down if you design it in that way it has to be deliberately designed that you have to be careful with the of course you I could give some notations of what not to do or what to do but for example the north I think the northwest wind is the one that we call the oven right southwest so southwest if it is spinning on the line of goodwill it's really bad because that's really hot but if you have very high porosity it will infiltrate right here not much I would say it is not so bad because the direction of the wind can penetrate I would just say when you are designing something like this you really have to make sure that there are enough passages and corridors for that for the air but it is at the end I when I thought about it a lot and I end to say forget about it go to vernacular modes in which you are creating an intense situation of microclimate because you have all of these orientations and we always when we work in modern we think orientation this is the air direction and I feel like very difficult there is no one single orientation just create rules of intensity of nature and of buildings that leads to microclimate with porosity that leads to infiltration of air and I think that could have a chance of working yeah okay so I think we have run out of time so if you have any more questions we have some papers there at the back please write them down and we will pass them on to Omar yeah and so yeah now we have a tea outside waiting and we will meet back in here at 10 30 I think there is coffee I'm not sure we'll meet back in here at 10 30 for Nicole's presentation all right there we go change because you're creating microclimate that means that you that's why so yes because too much So you can rotate it and spread it if you like. If you have a discipline to open and close it, I don't have that. No, but it really works. The first time I tried to link these two, yes. Yeah. In the morning, I'm looking forward to seeing it. I need to think of the first time I tried this combination. I'm looking forward to seeing it as far as I can. With that light. There's one with the geometry. Yeah. I'm already very curious about the delinquent. And now you know the value. In terms of communication, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to use it, but I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to use it. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about the value. I'm not sure what is your form of the delinquent and why we use that word again. In both cases, the key of this question is accepted in kind of forgot-to-talk, who is right? The Ombel, which now comes out in the input section, takes a lot of time. And he's like, how are we going to handle it? Like, we'll have it, which one of you doesn't do that? Well, that's the biggest question. Yeah. It's not treating it very nicely. I don't think so. I have all my years to do that. I don't think so. I agree. Do you? No. Yes. So, when you want to do it, you can do it in a different way. I agree. I agree. Really, as a recipeer, if you're going to do it, you'll be able to do it. Okay? Is that one here? Is that one here? Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Hey, look at that piece of information you sent to me. Why didn't you get one? It was a Bavarian. And then the Miko, the Bavarian. I'll put it on the table. Yes, thank you. Here. I'll put it on the table. I'll put it on the table. I'll put it on the table. I'll put it on the table. Sophie? Yes, it's me. I'm listening. If you check on your system, if it works, if it opens, if it opens up, if it's not, if it doesn't, you can reach on after three or five minutes. Do you want to check yesterday that it was working? I mean, you can check together, you see if it looks like it's supposed to work, but yes, they want to help you. No, it doesn't change. They have big files embedded in the... OK. OK. I'll see which one. Which one has the behind the corner? The second one. No, no, no, you're right. Ah, sorry. There's no, no, no. Everyone could slowly start coming back into the room. So our next presentation will be by Nicole, on urban planning and Orville economic ideals. Nicole has been living in Orville since 1980. She served as a socio-economic member of Lavenier, having been active in trying to give form to Orville's economic ideals. She co-founded key services such as Nandini and PTDC, worked in the financial service, and has served on both the BCC and FAMC. She has managed the Orville Visitor Center for over 20 years, helping to define the policy for visitor access to Matrimandier and Orville. Over to you, Nicole. Thank you. Can you hear me? I don't realize, no. Okay, so I was approached to try and define a little bit better. The relationship between the city, between the planning, and the economy of Orville. We've all heard the presentation that was made by Olivier, which was centered mostly on the prosperity aspect of the economy. But I felt that how does that impact the city? How does that impact the built form? How does that impact the social system in which Orville is supposed to function? So maybe we can have some. So when I was on Lavner, TDC, Doshi one day asked us this question, ah, but the city, what will it feel like? And we were actually all a bit floored by the question. And this question stayed with me. And when this dream weaving exercised revived in the present form, I have been again thinking what kind of information can we give to try and answer some of that question. So a city. In current cities and pretty much all over the world, but for a few pockets now cities are capitalist cities. Capitalist cities drive on vital enjoyment. They drive on consumption, over consumption. And that drive is the generator both of wealth, but also of progress. We constantly invent new things. Some of them are perfectly useless, but some of them are extremely useful. So this is the system pretty much all over the world. But here we are in a city that mother defined, I mean one of the ways that she defined Orville, she said, ha, the system will be an adaptation of the communist system. And I think we need to try and define a little bit better what we can understand of what she meant. Next. So from the beginning of the 20th century, mother had these visions of cities. There were a few. She had a few of these visions over the years. It started in the 20s and then it was this idea to have an ideal city near Hyderabad. And then finally Orville being the last one in that line of visions that she had for a perfect city. Now these different visions were different in many ways. How were the people going to be housed, what kind of habitat they would have, how it would be organized, which will be at the center, how all this was going to be. Keeps on changing. Not all of it, but some of it keeps on changing. But one of the things that remains constant is that she sees a city without the exchange of money. Now what means a city without the exchange of money? What does she mean by that?  That's not how it's meant to be. So you have a city in which she has removed that mortar of exchange. She has removed it. She has said no money. So how are we going to organize this city without the exchange of money? Because by money she doesn't just mean the cash you pull out of your pocket, which is what she had in those days. But also all the different aspects that we have today, which is a virtual exchange of money. So one of the things we can turn to is the way of course she organized the Ashram. She organized the Ashram, and she organized the early Orville. I know that some of you here remember very well. As places where central services, centrally funded services, were actually giving the goods to people. This is her vision of how the city of Orville is to function. It's to function by you give your work, in exchange you receive what you need to cover your basic needs. So basic needs are taken care of so that everybody is free to organize his life, not according to financial means, but according to his inner capacities. Next, so if it's not money that drives the life of the city, that motivates progress and research, what is it going to be? We've heard Peter touch on to that point a few times. I've heard on the radio, no, I wasn't here. It's consciousness. It is really everybody trying all the time to be at the top of his or her consciousness. This is what drives progress. It's a progress towards more consciousness. Mother invokes an ending education in the charter, future realization. So obviously she sees Orville as a very vibrant place. When earlier we talked about communism, she doesn't see it as a sort of drab place where people will just get what they need in some sort of services that are going to be a little bit tatty. And no, she sees that life, she sees us, she sees Orville going towards being relevant in the world, going towards something that is going to be a shining beacon. Next, what economic principle fosters Orville's manifestation? Now here we have a little bit of the tricky point that Mother's vision for Orville evolved over the years. It is only in 1969 and further in 1970 that she says very clearly, no exchange of money in Orville. Before that it's all there's a crown, there's guest houses, there's restaurants, there's shops, everybody's happily milling around this crown road. But in 1969 she says no exchange of money. And she develops that vision in 1969 and 1970. She says there will be no private property, no private businesses, no exchange of money. The basic needs of Orvillians are to be provided for by the township. What does this mean for the crown? The crown, as we all know, is envisaged as a concentrated corridor of common infrastructure and common services. This has not always been understood also inside Orville. We have had drives towards trying to commercialize parts of the crown, commercialize parts of the city, and several TDCs and FMCs have actually resisted so far, moderately successfully, but rather successfully to see the commercialization of this crown and to ensure that a distinct non-consumerist environment is upheld. So today in the stretch of ground that we all know, which is food link, solar kitchen, PTDC, et cetera, all the way to Arca, we actually have so far pretty much upheld this vision. One of the key questions which we all need to think about is how are we going to ensure vibrancy, dynamism, and creativity in this public services and infrastructure environment? How is this going to be really a living space where everybody wants to go and wants to be together and wants to meet? Next. So in the residential zone, we have all these that I've just talked about, including Santa and the Ovil Library. So what can be envisaged in that stretch is more, perhaps smaller scale eateries, perhaps something a little bit more familiar, I don't know how you say it in English. Community kitchens, daycare, laundry, hairdressers, et cetera, all that in a pedestrian and child friendly environment within very easy reach of the residences. I think that one of the things that one needs to understand is that, and I'm sure you've heard this now many times, this city is a very compact city. When you are at the end, I would say, of the residential zone on the outer end, you actually within how many minutes of the crown road? Three minutes, five minutes? Maximum. So anybody can walk that distance. Anybody can actually enjoy as long as we, one way or the other, create shade, create a pleasant environment that people can actually really give reality to this pedestrian city. Next. Cultural zone, we have Calaboumy, we have the arts and music studio, we have schools, and yeah, this cultural zone, I thought it was very interesting when Anupama presented. When she actually explained very well that both the cultural zone and the industrial zone are inward looking zones. They are zones to develop, the cultural zone is a zone to develop the culture of all, to grow our own culture. And the industrial zone is the zone where we go to work. It is not a zone where we employ a lot of employees in order to produce things. No. It is the place where we go to work. And why is that important? It's, again, that aspect of consciousness. We were supposed, we are supposed, to work and produce for each other. Because, again, of that aspect of consciousness, we are meant to pour consciousness in what we do, in what we try to manifest. And that creates a value that is transmitted in what we pass on to the next person. So we support each other in this adventure of consciousness by our concentration on that aspect. Next. Then industrial zone, the vocational training, co-working space for Orvilleans. Next. Ha. Coming to this international zone again, coming back to what Anupama was saying, she was saying the international zone is the zone that looks outward. It's the zone that actually lets in all these innovations and ideas from the outside world and brings them in. And we are then able to mingle with that and go further. This international portion of, international zone portion of the crown in the early days, and I think still perhaps in the latest master plan, is a place where you have, apart from institutions like Savitri Bhavan, Unity Pavilion and others and the Language Lab, you have also guest houses, which makes absolute sense in an international zone. But again, I think we need to ask ourselves the question. People who are coming to Orville are coming to experience a different type of life. They are not necessarily coming to do what, but in a way they are pushed to do today, which is to consume when we are the other, or to be frustrated by the fact that they cannot access things. So I think that we need in our thinking, when we envisage guest houses and such places on the crown road of the international zone, that we also keep in mind that the people who come to stay in there, we need to absorb them into the Orville way of living, and not try to cater to their needs in the way that they are catered for outside. Then, okay, on the practical level, we have these two parks at each end, we have parks between each of the zones. So how to integrate that? Now it's one of the hot topics at present. So how do we blend the existence of these parks with the rest of the city? I very much appreciated what Omar said when he said that from his experience the green belts have worked when actually they have fingers that go inside the city and that are allowed to create corridors for that environment to flourish. Next? Ha. So if we have this perfect city, when we have this perfect city, we have each and every one of us going about their work in the industrial zone or otherwise or in the cultural zone, we have the crown where we go and get our foods in community kitchens, in PTDCs or whatever. We have that distribution system that takes care of our needs. We, Mother, was very clear, I mean she faced it also in the ashram, you need a little bit of an extra something for each and every one of us. It's not that we, some of us, may be able to live constantly in a space that is organized on these lines, but many of us will have extra needs. The city will not be able to provide everything that we need. This she also forces. She forces that this industrial zone, economic zone she calls it, is not going to be able to provide everything that we need. So we need a zone of shops. We need a zone of shops for the extras and for the things that we cannot produce. So it's at the same time, yeah, the possibility for people in Orville to go out, to be in different, access different goods. So this zone of shops, we all know it, I mean it's there in the very basic of what Mother explains about the city. So, but we have not defined where that is going to be. It's been envisaged, Mother said it should be at the edge of the city, but where we don't know. And to my mind, if today we look at the Crown Road and we try to be true to what Mother wanted for this Crown Road, we also need to look at this aspect and to see where that is actually going to land, how it is going to manifest and what it is going to look like. And it's very important because, yeah, all of us, the moment we want to go to a restaurant, go a little bit to a shop, something where do we find ourselves in Quillapalayan or in Pondicherry. Neither of experiences is actually conducive to keeping your level of consciousness and neither experiences actually being uplifting in any way. So, we need to see, okay, what is it that we are going to need and where are we going to have it? Next. Oh, yeah, I forgot. Yeah. In the same way that the South Service Zone is thought of for the place for the municipal services like electrical service and all these things. So, we have defined more or less that aspect, but the zone of shop has not been developed. It was also there in the presentation that was done by Helmut about Billinger. Billinger also talks about that. At one point he says, you know, Billinger also in this study for the mobility, he also talks about the importance of having something somewhere on the edge. So, on the edge, on the ring road, what are we talking about here? Because we have to be a little bit... I mean, I don't know. I felt, this is just me, but I felt that it needs to be emphasized that in the galaxy plan that we increasingly refer to and that I see increasingly a sort of adherence towards, there is no ring road. The city's fingers go into the green belt and the green belt merges with the city. This is actually what's happening in that plan. Similarly, the crown. Sorry I don't have to say that, but similarly the crown, I mean, you look at the galaxy model, there is no perfect circle on the galaxy model. Because the galaxy is a spiral galaxy. It's not... You have different types of galaxy. This galaxy is what you call a spiral galaxy. Now, a spiral is by definition something that is not in nature, that is not going to create a perfect form. But that's an aside. So, one has to reflect on the desirability or otherwise of this outer ring road, which has advantages for mobility and for access. But this is also a divider between the city and the green belt. Mobility and access. What mobility, what access to the city? I think this is perhaps not strictly for this dream weaving, which I understand is more for the crown, but it's super important. It's super important. It actually defines pretty much everything that we are going to do. Next. Now you've heard in the little presentation that Aditi made. It's 20 years I've been managing the Visitor Center of Orville. Means I find myself daily confronted with a reality, an objective outside reality that is growing. That is growing in terms of mobility, in terms of numbers, in terms of expectation. That is also shifting in many ways and in many interesting ways. But I'm faced with that. And I'm also faced like we all are with this extremely rapid. I mean, I don't know. I don't go to Créla Palais often. But every time I go down nowadays, it's one or two more restaurants or shops or buildings that are popping up. I mean, it's like spreading at a pace that is very frightening. Which is why, sorry, I have the smaller side also, which is why I think it's extremely important that the definition of what happens alongside the roads, the tar roads, on land that is owned by Orville is really very strictly defined. It is defined, but it is not defined strictly enough. So I mean, I've been on TDC. I know what it is. You get these pressures. You get these people. It's 20 times they've come. You don't know anymore what to do. You say, okay, okay, let's try and do this. Which generally ends up, I mean, you know very well, generally ends up in disaster. Because actually, because we don't have a place for everything. Please understand, in this masked plan, we don't have a place for everything. And that's why I'm saying that this zone of shops or this zone of, I don't know, studios where the Orville units can also exhibit their things is important to have. If we don't have that, we will constantly have this pressure of people wanting to go inside Orville to go to the magnets of interest that are there in our industrial zones or elsewhere. So we need to create something in a planned environment, in a beautiful environment that people will be able to feel something of the quality of Orville when they come here. Yeah, showroom in the industrial zone, raise mobility accessibility issues, et cetera. So next, so visit the center. We come back to that. So visit the center is inside the city, not far from the nominal ring road. It actually touches the nominal ring road at the bottom of the visitor center plot. It has limited space and its chief raison d'être is not to sell Orville products. Its chief raison d'être is to explain what Orville is about. Because of the objective reality, financial reality that Orville has been in over the years, we had to blend these things. This happened before I got on the scene, I mean on the scene of the visitor center. We had to blend these things. Commercial units support the site that is the site that gives knowledge and services to the visitors. It's getting way too small now. It's getting way too small. The requests from Orville units to have a place to show what they are doing is constant. It has gone down a little bit with COVID, but I tell you it's about to start with the vengeance. And so is the number of people coming to Orville. The moment this COVID is over, Orville is just going to flare up. And it's going to flare up not in the way in which it used to be. Huh, 50 people in a bus. No, no, no. Two, three people in big suits. That's what's happening today. So we need to... Sorry, I'm thinking way too long and I'm off topic and whatever, but I think it's important that we think about these things when we talk about vulnerability and other things. I wish that with the present configuration where we have the representatives from both the Tamil Nadu and the Pondicherry government when we actually have very high-ranking officers on our governing board that we could take the opportunity to organize buses that come from Pondicherry to come to Orville. Because otherwise I tell you we are not going...  We actually... Our roads, our access roads are simply, simply, simply not meant for that. And I'm not saying that we should welcome everybody that comes. But what I'm saying is that whatever we do, we have to plan to do it in a more organized way and a quieter way for people in a way that kind of brings them into a different space when they arrive in Orville. Okay. I'm good. I'm actually... Yeah. So, yeah. So, currently, all these people that come, roughly 800,000 in non-COVID years, yeah, they come through the Nadu streets of Idar and Chavadi. So, that means they're actually going down very small road that was repaired by the collector not that many years ago, which is now, again, totally destroyed because of water, because of passage. It comes in front of the temple. It comes in front of the school. And it goes through a street. I'm not kidding. It's about two and a half meter wide and you can't make it wider because people have built their houses on the Perombo Club. So, we are at bottleneck there and this bottleneck means that on busy days, when we have 5,000, 6,000, 7,000, sometimes 8,000 people coming on big weekends where everybody's on holiday and doesn't have a festival to attend at home, on those days, you don't pass. Even on a bicycle, you don't pass anymore. This is the reality. So, why? Because everything gets clogged. Everything gets blocked. So, this is not the way to come into Oroville. We have to find ways to raise the bar and to raise that bar on our own terms. Yeah. So, therefore, there is a pressing need to have a different better-managed access for visitors coming to Oroville and currently coming to the Visitors' Centre. Now, I'm not saying that this Visitors' Centre has to stay there for all eternity. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you have short-term, medium-term and long-term in planning and in life. So, now we are in the short-term and most probably the way I've seen things in Oroville developing, we're certainly in the medium-term as well. So, I know about ideas to extrapolate and put things in different places. I've been on these places with Luigi and with other people and trying to give a reality to it. It has not happened. So, for the moment, we have an objective reality. We have the Visitors' Centre where it is and we need spaces for our units and not only for our units, also for the research aspects of Oroville to showcase themselves to the public so that people have a better idea what Oroville stands for, what Oroville is doing, what Oroville is striving for. So, next. Fabien will smile again. This is a little bit of my data, but it's something that I came up with four years ago when, actually, I did realize that the lands that we needed in order to make the stretch of Ring Road between Oroville and the Visitors' Centre parking, we actually had both of them, that we actually can pass through. So, for me, it's always this thing that why don't we do that? So, I know, maybe we showed that thing, that map. Do you give me the glitley? Thank you. So, this black thing is the road that comes from the 32nd corner and goes into Edda and Chavadi. This is the Edda and Chavadi village. So, what the road does, it does this. It goes down here in front of the temple. It comes back up here and people come into the parking. So, what has been happening is that now we have, as you see, not perfect, because we still have pieces of private land. Six pieces of private land actually impact the ring road. But we have just above it a perfectly free space of green, means Orville land owned by the Orville Foundation that is here. So, I just wanted to point that out because I think we need to move on this. I think we need to move on this. I think that blending these two things of creating a space alongside some approximation of ring road, which we need on that side is would be a desirable thing to do and perhaps more what I'm saying is that I felt a little bit alone with that idea. And if it could be taken by some form of dream weaving and by people who have an experience of planning I think that could be interesting because we need to think about these things. You could very easily have a parking and this would become a pedestrian boulevard that people would go on. I hear about mobility and how are we going to basically come closer to our ideals of a city with no cars as much as possible a pedestrian cycling city how are we going to do that how are we going to avoid the mingling of types of transport. It's a question of political will. It's simply a question of political will. The moment we will be sufficient number of people who will want that or the moment when we will have somebody determined who is going to emerge this is going to happen. Next Yes. So one way to address some of our pressing needs could be. I'm not pushing this idea. I'm here to present something. Could be to blend this zone of shops that mother talks about with the need for millions to have a space where they can access the goods that they don't get distributed in the city and blend it with the need for visitors to experience more of what Orville has to offer. We said that already. So one idea pedestrian boulevard made accessible to visitors they are parking in the tramway that showcases Orville units and projects. This would also help the visitor center to become more of a space simply dedicated for a service sector information sector showing more of what is happening on the non-commercial aspect of Orville. Next So yeah, this is just coming back to the points that we have seen the need for a commercial downtown the need to own our managed access for visitor that this one idea could be to blend these two into this stretch of this approximation of the autobing world and then as I said we're not, yeah I think it was this morning I was listening to Lata's presentation when she says that you have a master plan for 20 years and then you have a development plan for 5 years and then you have actually an annual plan and everything that you learn in your annual plan in terms of things that have moved inform your development plan and inform your master plan. So I yeah in 40, 50 years in 20 years in 15 years I mean none of us knows we may have different needs we can move this visitor center more outside we can but then we can use the infrastructure that will have been created for different use. We can use this infrastructure for more housing whatever it is that we feel like doing. Voila. Anything else? Yeah, so this is just the fact that we need a place for everything when I was saying that we are not you see in the master plan in the galaxy also we are not really not everything and of course how could it has been foreseen so we need to find a place for these different activities. Voila. Is that the end? Or there's one more? Excellent. Voila. Good. You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah, thank you very much to David and to Omar and to the organizers for giving me a space to express this. I'm very grateful. Thank you, Nicole. So we have some time for questions. Again, David will take the names so we don't get mixed up. Yeah, so any questions? Just a comment. I learned a bit, a lot more about the whole topics beyond the purely economical side and you are mentioning the stretch behind Ajan Chavadi which is in my mind since 20 years and obvious to do and really and you are talking about the political will for that because of course there will be as everywhere when you have changed something there will be problems, but I remember two years, three years ago in that workshop, this stretch was one of the play field in that round table exercise which was as small as it looked like and in important it was a fantastic, I found an exercise to join these different aspects of information, economics and interface with the villagers without making walls and all the rest and liberate the inner traffic by making the outer ring road somehow functional already on that western side. More not to say at the moment. No, it's good. It's just a comment to get in that way. So thank you very much, Nicole. Maybe it's also a comment. We had also two weeks ago a little bit touched upon this part. What I miss is the answer or the interaction with the villager with Kula Palayam and Edyon Chavity. I think what we saw two weeks ago was about the traffic jam in Kula Palayam which in this exercise you mean? Yes, in this exercise. It's a regular traffic jam in Kula Palayam and it's obviously for me the next we need to solve this question. What was the tentative of discussion, exchange work together with Kula Palayam and Edyon Chavity? Since 20 years it was a question. Can you tell us anything about Kula Palayam? No, not really. You have two different realities. You have the reality anybody corrects me if I'm going to say something wrong here but what I remember from Kula Palayam when we came 40 years ago Kula Palayam is between the road and Portous. You have these two little temples the village around it, that's the village. What we call the village of Kula Palayam is what has developed alongside the road which is actually a lot of external concerns that have come. It's a lot of Kashmiri shops and other shops. So it's a kind of strip development, is that what you call it? A strip development along the road. I'm not saying that it doesn't affect the life of the village today. I would say that Kula Palayam is much more fortunate in that sense, that they still have their village, they have their temple, they have their streets, they have all that. That's actually not impacted by the madness that's happening on the roads when again there is a really big weekend. So Eda and Charadi is the road goes through it. So it is a difficult thing. So what we are at the visitor center at the receiving end of is the fact that people are upset. Villagers are upset about that state of affairs. Of course some people benefit from it but a lot of people are actually saying enough is enough. So we need to find a solution. And I find that when we have the solution ourselves in terms of land and following roughly what our plan is anyway supposed to be I'm kind of I'm hoping for people coming together and really looking at the validity. I'm not saying this is valid, this is what we have to do. I would love people to look at the validity of it and help if it's valid to help to bring it forward. Thank you. Thanks so much. Always nice to see the passion behind people and every time people present oh I think this is what we have to deal with first. It makes so much sense. I have a comment and a question. The comment is that you remember that with Dreamcatchers we have done a medium, short, medium and long term and I think Marie is involved in it quite a lot and David and all of us. So there we brought the I think so but I think you were already working on it like we brought the parking already out. You remember what that mess was before. Now we have achieved that. The next part was to take visitor center to where the SLI was where Kalyan has given his land now to Orville and we had even walked that path and we had said yes and people walk exactly it's 10 minutes from there to visitor center then visitor center is more educational research oriented and then you go 10 minutes to so I was wondering if that's still in your consciousness somewhere and why wait 30, 40 years forget it we have to do it as soon as we can because 8 lakhs 8 lakhs a year it's not going to get less as you said. We're not going to manage another we're not going to be bursting so we'll have to make choices. Yeah what we can do I mean I know it's a big investment but like you said if there is political will and maybe there is money too and then we can design something which is more because like Swaram people want to come to Swaram because they want to see how it's made every time people say I want to see how paper is made in Orville you can't send them to Orville paper right they love the paper but they also want to see how it's made so how can we kind of bring that maybe through videos or some way of doing workshops I don't know but next visitor center can be different because we've learned everything along the way so that's the comment the question is so you said industrial zone and residential zone are inward looking I'm sorry cultural zone and industrial zone are inward looking and residential residential is residential and international is more of a phase to the world yes international I find one I would like to just a question in my mind when you look at the model the international zone is the most pass aspect you know so if you want that to become the phase to the world and when we see 8 lakhs today and we are going to just get more and when we are 50,000 it somehow doesn't sit in the mind like how that's going to be our phase to the world when it is so sparse and it's you know like it's more like a park with some buildings in it so we don't want to have all those guest houses there and you know all these so it's still a question in my mind whereas industrial zone is so dense I mean we have all these 5 or 6 lines of force 18 stories you know it's not kind of sitting guest houses we need to also invite people to experience horrible life it's not just one day visitors we want people who want to stay a little bit experience 2-3 months maybe work so there is some dichotomy there which maybe you can throw some light on that how does that work not the only thing that I can say to that is that you see from what I understand from what I understand what happens inside of it is concentrated so as you say people who will come to the international zone to stay to research to share to take part in seminars or workshops so those people are the people that will eventually be very much welcome I believe in the international zone when we talk about day visitors we talk about something very different and what I know of the international zone is that they've always said no, no, no, no, no we are not there for that and rightly so so I think that the two are different in terms of the type of people that are to be welcome either as day visitors or as researchers I don't know if that answers your question that I'm not really I'm not really it's not my area of expertise at all are there any more questions okay so then I think that's it thank you Nicole and so we will now move into the next part of our two days which is kind of the beginning of the dream weaving and with that I will hand over to David okay so as I think we tried to explain a little bit at the beginning today we're in a transition from the sort of workshops from two weeks ago where we were introducing the aspects that need to be integrated into the dream weaving and we're moving now more fully into the dream weaving the architects are either hard at work or sitting here today listening to the last couple of presentations which have been part of this transition and one of the things now it's very important to explain that the dream weavings that we've done before in the past were all fully internal none of it was presented to the community and so forth until something was finished so it's actually a very new thing for us to be exploring how to bring this to the community now when we first started to plan this this weekend was going to be also fully open including peer review advisory group review etc etc and it was in the flow of this process in the sort of exploratory phase that we realised it's better actually for the architects who in many cases never worked with each other to get a sense of how each of them are working and to give them a safer space to share so we decided to just have the architects today and to do the full peer reviews and so forth in two weeks time one of the things we then didn't do is think through that and realise with the live streaming that that's a bit confusing so we did make the decision yesterday to not do the live streaming from here on for the sharing for the architects so they get a bit more comfortable with each other but it will be fully live streamed in two weeks time and Serena and her team are filming and so anyway this will all be recorded both for architects who couldn't make it but also in the end we will have these presentations from the architects available in the long term they will be there, they'll be recorded another thing that emerged we had an initial sharing session a week ago on Saturday which was not dream weaving it was simply each of the architects being able to show what they're coming up with so everybody gets a taste, a flavour of what everybody's looking at and so from there it also has become clear that there's a sort of distinction to be made between people coming with an input which is kind of like almost like a design extension of dream catching so we had Mona mentioned we'd had a dream catching session just to give everybody a taste of that where you sit in a circle and you share verbal ideas that are coming up over a couple of hours now we've kind of moved into a design phase and so there are actually inputs coming from that design perspective but they're not yet reach the point where they're going to be actually woven some people might take that idea and weave it into their own design and they might not feel ready to yet be taking the inputs from other people and weaving them into their design so we've distinguished between inputs and outputs so now before lunch we'll have three presentations which are input focused which may well evolve into outputs in a couple of weeks time that's up to the people themselves to decide if they want to do that and then after lunch we're going to have two the first two full dream including sessions after lunch and then tomorrow we'll be everybody else we have nine in total I believe so it'll be two this afternoon seven tomorrow so if I could invite Fabian to yeah is that okay so Fabian will make the first of the input presentations now yes yes 20 so we have one hour now between now and lunch and so each person has 20 minutes to present something and if we finish a bit early we get an early lunch yes Marie watch yeah they're on zoom they can yeah I should have mentioned that yes sorry I forgot to mention that yeah this is not feedback this is just an input for people to take on board if they wish and move on with in their designs in the next few weeks