n categorize those people but someone that can actually be flexible and take on different post-owners it's a bit more difficult I think it's just it's a great, I definitely want to comment on that so it's a great point and I think it's just shorthand instead of asking individual questions like what do you think the role of government is in this particular circumstance there are definitely cross cutting patterns and belief systems that you can roughly categorize well more often than not I agree with the Libertarian position or the conservative position or whatever but I totally see what you're saying and I will comment because what you just described is that I have to clip that part out definitely and whatever comes out of these conversations because you just described the thought pattern of I would say it's philosophy I'm biased because I come from the philosophic background but when you're saying you put yourself in the other person's mindset you must do that when you're doing philosophy it's the exact same thing when somebody tells you a belief you have to say okay, now if I were that person and had that belief what would the other beliefs in my net of beliefs, what would they have to be in order to support that conclusion if I believe X it must be that I presuppose Y if I presuppose Y I got to presuppose Z you have to take these conversations and people's ideas and intellectual positions as a whole package system from the other person's point of view it's almost like a version of empathy it's like intellectual empathy or something it's so critical intellectual, it's got real empathy I don't really have that intellectual, but most people can only take it so far they can try and understand I'm going to think that, but all the other steps they probably find it very very difficult so back to so we're all going to die from Bitcoin we're going to die from Bitcoin I told you about this evil villain type thing right the brinkmanship involved in this is do or die we're going to do it or not you have things like global warming climate change global warming actually it's got a bit colder climate change if it stops changing then they'll come up with something else climate stasis however I've always been pissed off about that why are they going CO2 they should be going on about the pollution pollution is far worse it's hotter and colder it's the pollution that's actually causing that pollution is more than just CO2 emissions and all the nations that will control CO2 emissions will plant more trees what about the toxic waste and even aluminium the process for creating aluminium that's everywhere now it creates toxic waste all the ground or whatever in the process how are you going to clean that up I'll put it in a barrel and sink it in the ocean yeah good one why don't you build a rail gun and shoot it into the sun hey now that was not a bad idea I like that I've got a few ideas like that one of them is to get us into low-earth orbit fast is to if you have a ship or even a plane you've got these those lightening rods you see on the aircraft if you stick that one at the front of a plane because it's not a plane it's something else because that's where the radar dish is inside the last stone stick it at the front there and so it was ionizing ionizing the air molecules in front of it something like 20 tesla or 30 tesla coils inside the ionizing all the air molecules in a volume and then you make with this positive or negative ion you do the opposite for the skin of the machine so it's actually pushing against it so it's effective against the skin which means you haven't got the air drag which means instead of taking say 17 hours or 15 hours between Sydney and San Francisco you can do it within an hour or half an hour well the same amount of power it just goes faster people say it's too long a distance a few centuries ago it would have taken like 6 weeks 4 months to go that distance it's not the distance that's the problem on this planet it's the faster we're going and these jumbo jets they're going too slow we're going to make them faster so if you're going to ionize the air around it it probably won't work but because you're still pushing forward there's still going to be a forward push on the ion so it probably wouldn't change anything anyway but I've thought about that type of stuff so if you can do that you can also make a rail gun or a rail sled instead of having aerodynamic shapes you can have big blocky shapes like a brick and just fire that up and it's just going through the sky through the sky in a vacuum type thing and do that into low-worth orbit and then off to the sun off to the moon from moon base and all the rest but are these future projects? a few future projects but again it takes a lot of electricity to do that any planetary civilization or type 1 planetary civilization which is a type 1 planetary civilization is one that re-soccles everything so all the stuff we put in our recycle bins everything that you put in ends up being recycled we cannot do it at the moment because the machinery we use and the humans we use to break it apart and refine it is just so inefficient and uneconomic however you've got to stop thinking just like a Bond villain stop thinking about how the civilization is right now thinking about how it's going to be very shortly that's what you've got to get out towards one is we're going to have machines doing everything right set out intellectual thinking at least not for a while and so we are going to have machines collecting our rubbish instead of being a driver in a truck and scooping it up it'll be a machine to control that vehicle not only that you'll have machine helpers that come out and you don't even have to put your bins out there they'll come in and to wherever your bins are located and drag them out to the truck and pick it up you don't have to put out your bins anymore yay to the extent that you can actually have a hole on the side of your kitchen that when you put the trash in your kitchen rubbish in your kitchen automatically and it comes around and grabs it and you don't even have to take that rubbish out of your house anymore alright and that rubbish truck will go to a facility and they'll break it apart and there'll be a whole lot of little robots you would have seen them in things like the clone wars when you had little tiny robots helping out in a mechanic shop same type of thing but this will be hauling apart all the different elements of the rubbish going back to the refineries things like when you manufacture iron, the iron smelters they actually put bits of old iron, any previous iron, in with it so you've got the iron ore you've got some coal in there and other elements and previously made iron or steel they put in there and so that would happen for everything so everything would be recycled so you've got CO2 emissions now is this idea playing into the planetary death caused by bitcoin or is this not yeah because if you're a fan of science fiction books some of them are for the utopian type of futures because we go to dystopian and the whole lot is rex we're heading that way anyway and it would need a big swift kick at the backside we're heading towards the more utopian and the utopian is one where you've got unlimited energy unlimited power, I've told you before and about weaponry or say tools rural tool users and the greatest tool at the moment is electricity but we're still restricted how long does a battery last at the moment the batteries haven't changed much in the last two or three decades you put a battery into your machine weaver and it drains after a few days and then also you're going to replace it you should be able to put a little battery into something and it lasts there for a year with good usage not talking too much about an eye beacon that puts a little battery in at last six months to about something that's mechanized should the battery should be more powerful and so what we can do at moving forward is restricted on how much electricity we can generate and how cheap it is how it's dispersed stored and so this comes down to utopian society with robots there's going to take a lot of electricity after moving in and out to take trucks to grab your rubbish and that they'll be running by a battery so the battery technology has to be a lot more powerful so to get to the stage of having excess amount of electricity being generated we need a way to force that to happen and it's been slowing down the last decade or so the economics for clean energy is poor solar panels and wind a lot of it's because coal companies the politicians are inside the pocket they're coming something and electricity digging up the coal from the ground or where it's crushing it or taking it to the generation factory generation buildings they're incentivized to keep that in play the promise that was a prefer work there was a solution in the CO2 the idea is that whether you've got climate change or whatever else it's happening too slow then grandchildren great grandchildren's time will have big bushfires here and floods there it's going to be a real mess but it was moving too slow because the ones that are changing the laws are controlling the funds they're going to be dead in a few short years they only care about the next election in four years time and maybe the one after that but they're not looking past one generation they're barely looking past the next election so they're not going to make anything that's going to actually benefit the continuation of the human species and they've all proved themselves that time and time again so the ideas take the power of making that decision away from them right and so you've got this prefer work the whole thing using parts of the certain deadly sins to incentivize people to bring more machines online and hash more and at some stage we're going to end up getting things like brownouts right usually you might have something like say five coal generation electricity generation buildings during the daytime to take over the pick out but say there's usually three of them on during pick out another one gets brought on another one just in case everyone puts the coffee on and the toast is down and it's off to go to work and it goes down to about three during the daytime the evening time say it goes up again to four whatever and then but at night times at night times it goes down to about two maybe probably just one with a possible another one kicking in but you just one during the night and electricity is stopped cheaper and everything else for the retail folks and the thing is and the whole system to get up like this and so when it comes to the whole supply line it's all going to these to those stations it's based upon it takes a certain amount of coal to burn for the steam engines to tune the turbines to generate the electricity and it's all figured out and then all of a sudden here comes the Bitcoin holy shit what's happening now these things are running 24 hours aren't they it's on peak time it's 24 hours so you've got these five stations running there's always one to for backup type thing and during the daytime you've got to bring another one on board at night time when they used to have this many now there's this many and then I think oh oh but we've already sold that coal to that nation over there you can't have those but we need more coal because we haven't got enough electricity because these bastards are running these miners and it's all of a sudden we're going to have to start switching off the brownouts because of this right so and it's decentralized they can't stop it how are you going to stop it now do you think that just simple price appreciate like the as the cost of electricity goes up eventually you're going to hit like a market equilibrium where people don't have the electricity is too expensive to put on more additional bitcoin miners on the market differently that's why you've seen from the past when it was on the planet to it's gone down now to nations where it's cheap electricity I think US is like twice as expensive as China but Australia and New Zealand more expensive than in the US right so over here it's very very difficult hitched up with a naturally electricity supplier and you're able to take the excess generation then you can't really do it over here much it's a business model but that's always going to balance out and that's what made it kill it is to actually force all the electricity prices up retail wise and all of a sudden can't afford to run it right but some of these people what they're doing is you're retailing your business and some of them now are large enough to get enough there's not one or two it's actually buying us out a hundred of them and then put them into a warehouse and seeing it as a business so they're getting business rates not retail rates so it's it varies but the climate change is happening too far too slow it's the same old thing even if you ignore the political climate itself as a species will become extinct within a few hundred years if nothing gets changed so and the thing is with the way technology is you think oh yeah you're about four generations away yeah well the way the medical prices is changing at the moment we could still be alive then right not the ones in power at the moment but those are I'm supposedly mid-aged but I could be a young one really so the time I get to old age we might have chemical stuff to actually reverse some of the aging effects right so it's not anyone's mind whatsoever that we're going to live past a hundred but we could be here in 250 years time talking about stuff about the people that are currently in charge won't be here I hope not but I've got other plans if they are but yeah it's happening too slow we've got to accelerate it so here comes back to the old thing of being an evil villain type person right it's going to cause calamity and death and all that that's to win we've got to accelerate it and use freakmanship to risk killing us all so you've got Bitcoin, that's why Prefer works so great that solves so many problems including this one of extinction and none of this was talked about in the Bitcoin community because it's beyond but they're payneval only the currency side was talked about yeah so so the idea is to accelerate so that in one single generation we either succeed in solving the electricity the electricity problem we've got one people not this nation these nations throwing rocks you're all going to go if you don't solve the problem now the thing is what about electricity when it comes so cheap because it's so easy to generate power yeah and what sort of society would we have we've got unlimited electricity if you read any science fiction books every one of them hits towards utopia we want we have railguns everywhere if you want to send products to Australia and New Zealand you don't have to send a ship, you just fire them towards them yeah so we either solve the problem or we're all going to die and that's a great incentive this all comes into human incentivization and if someone's threatened with death they will be driven to action they will get off the server and stop watching their sport and drinking their beer and they will do something alright and if they die then that type of person doesn't exist anyway right so when you're thinking about this at a fundamental level you're coming up with this when you're looking at the Byzantine generals problem are you viewing this through the lens of the social the evil villain Darwinist, we got to accelerate human extinction or is that like way down the road when you're thinking about it now that you say it, it sounds a bit crazy it sounds this is so wrong however if it's not done we will be all extinct in a few hundred years but in a hundred years we wouldn't be able to change it anymore 100 years later everything will be a wasteland if we accelerate now it's a boiling frog scenario I've told other people that at the moment we're in a big pot and we're in the pot and it's slowly being heated up it's going to take four generations until it's boiling then we won't be able to jump out or whatever and we'd be dead what we're going to do is put the flames on underneath we're going to get them boiling as fast as we possibly can as soon as they're bubbling we'll leap out if we don't we're dead we're already going to perish the pathway we're already on so we need a way to get find a way to generate electricity and great quantities you got a systems thinker so it makes sense that you're not just looking at this as a nice token you can use for playing poker online you're looking at the intergalactic implications of this so what I want to ask you though is when you are when you self reflect how do you how seriously do you take these ideas because you're seeing that you're solving the Byzantine general problem and creating bitcoin has worked so your theoretical understanding you came up with a system that actually worked that lends some credence to your theorizing about things when you're thinking about these other stuff and you're thinking about these huge big picture stuff are you like yeah it's kind of a game it's kind of fun to think about are you taking that with as much seriousness as the ideas merit there's a scale right of some of the ideas you just wouldn't ever work using railguns to shoot up into space the gas itself is what 70% nitrogen or 75% nitrogen so you're not going to be able to ionize that are you as far as I'm aware or maybe you can with enough Tesla energy used but a lot of this is you've got to come up with the ideas anyway go what a work in this case what if this happened what if that happened you never know everyone else in the world looks at something and sees the end result and then they can go backwards to try and unwind how that was come how it was created in the first place or decided upon but when you start from the beginning you don't know which way it's going to go not at all so some of these ideas are just thrown around the ideas of the geodesic sphere and all the rest fundamental problem still exists today of how do you get a GPS coordinate into a transaction and be able to confirm that that coordinate is actual the real coordinate and not just one that's been made up the only way is if you had satellites where they themselves have private public keys that's sign the GPS coordinate but the technology didn't exist at the time I've heard that Elon Musk is about to start shooting up mini satellites everywhere for internet access all right now the same thing for GPS system to enhance the one we currently use but then you've got to have your phone be able to communicate with this device these new satellite devices and have them be known so there's some sort of oracle knowing that these are real satellites not faked ones and these are the these are the private keys for those satellites and they can sign saying that coordinate came from that satellite that coordinate came from that satellite it's been better than trying the transaction all this stuff has to be done otherwise it's all we're doing is relying on a a number in a transaction which could have been faked all right so if this other stuff isn't built then it's not going to happen if the majority of people involved in the technology are just scammers and fraudsters and all these multi-level marketers and speculators about 99% are all the people doing trading all the ones that are doing they usually trade stocks but now they're investing in Bitcoin or cryptocurrency all them are buying it so that some other smart can come in behind them buy somebody at a higher price and they can sell their stuff and make money it's all the same game they might use them terminology but it's the same game they're all pyramid schemes of some sort even property markets you buy property so that some idiot even if it's a decade or two decades longer come in and buy it for a higher price and if that did not happen the whole scheme would collapse so they're all pyramid schemes you can just change the philosophy and the vocabulary but it's still the same but most of these ideas it's all the same stuff remember the invention was made first and then it was used as an electronic cash there's no Bitcoin invention there's no such thing as a Bitcoin invention Bitcoin is the pref of concept experiment of the invention the invention could be used for this or it could also be used for electronic cash and electronic cash because it's most important if you're going to make a planetary civilization you need it in global currency if this did not work as a global currency you could not the rest of it planetary civilization could not go ahead and also the two people that I had assisting me are only for the electronic cash side of things so that had to be the first one there once they had that they did not want all the other stuff so for you are you I don't remember if you said we might have had the connection break but are you working with anybody to bring about more of the of this original ideas there's a million people in the Bitcoin cash community that I'm sure would be really excited because this is something that you've just forgotten are you working on other stuff well some of the BTC guys don't like me in the sense of I think I tweeted out somewhere about how Bitcoin cash forked back to Bitcoin and BTC soft forked into an altcoin and that upset a few of them or those that read that tweet because whether you got soft fork or hard fork before that delineation was made it was called forking right so the BTC crowd blockchain crowd the block stream crowd and all those they made this delineation to try and market a fork in a certain particular direction which in turn broke Bitcoin because they never understood it these experts never understood even as electronic cash they even brought an add-in back to be a figurehead for block stream to try and give it self-credits even the Bitcoin foundation I think Gavin started it they called it Bitcoin foundation to give it self-credits they might it doesn't matter if they go and say we're not officially in control of Bitcoin calling yourself Bitcoin foundation makes people believe that so no no so I'm in communication with some of the people on the Bitcoin cash side of it purely because they are more open to ideas and thoughts even if it's against what they think they still have a discussion maybe you've already said even in this chat you're against some of the ideas I've got because you're a manic marketing anarchist but we can still have a conversation an issue whatsoever a blockchain we wouldn't have a conversation we wouldn't even have a conversation and read it it's the different type of mindset group and it's got to the stage if you read the Reddit posts or the types of censorship that are going on in places it's got to the stage it's like a mental illness I know it's a cult the BTC people have created a cult for themselves Bitcoin cash is a little bit as well but the ones that are left in BTC are in that huge category of people that are utterly blind to what they're saying that is parroting them they've done that for years anyway but they don't even realise what damage they're doing what they've done to that or maybe they do if you do the conspiracy theorist and stuff like that they're going to be broken and not working anymore but the people that are doing it may think they're doing something that's beneficial they might not realise that they should be manipulating themselves and finding a path that's so destructive that's what I was saying earlier I've learned more about humanity in the last couple of years by being part of the Bitcoin community than I have it any other time because whether it's malice it is high levels of both or either one it takes a so I've got a saying and some of the people that I talk with there are some ideas that are so stupid only an academic could believe them and that has certainly been the case in the BTC community there are some ideas limiting it permanently at one megabyte that's not even within the realm of being reasonable it's not two orders of magnitude if you want to count the block size okay theoretically it is not within two orders of magnitude close to being reasonable and it takes a special mind I think to think otherwise to convince yourself and think that you're an expert and conclude confidently otherwise this is a thing I'll just do a little google for it now I feel it's called hunger I believe it's a tribute to malice which could be adequately explained by stupidity they might not be maliciously damaging they might just be stupid even when he introduced himself when he was brought into the blockchain and introduced himself in the community in 2013 or something he was actually just sorted again just a few days ago or a few weeks ago he was even saying then about how Bitcoin mining Bitcoin is effectively my invention my invention hash cash he calls it hash cash with inflation control yeah yeah on twitter for a while I just read his introduction introduced himself to the bitcoin community on bitcointalk.org and informed there as the first post and then it was saying that he was particularly saying they're using my hash cash for doing the mining it's actually my the thing is the thing is that reference was never supposed to be in there at all even though it's mentioned in the email which means it was in the text the white paper was never supposed to be as a reference in fact most of the references for the white paper are fake false but Craig since he's the one that wanted a white paper published and all white papers have references to make it look academic you had to put something down there but most of them are wrong one was that when he said he was going to put the hash cash one there I said you don't it's based on the prefer work it's not based on hash cash he's yeah yeah but you've talked about yeah okay I'll take that bit out of it or if you're going to put his the hash cash is a reference you go to the hash cash white paper look at his references for prefer work and add them above his reference so if anyone reads it they can see it's the prefer work that's important and it was also used in diminishes his credit credit yeah right but that wasn't done there's mention in there about time stamping there's about two or three references there's only about six or seven references or something two or three of them there's about time stamping alright they're not references at all because I never refer to it I came up with this idea of a chrono stamp server we don't need actually the time the actual specific time that all these other attempts or the electronic carriers try to do and to know what the actual time is you had to trust at least one a few of them in synchronization synchronize the time between them so the time is all correct a chronological order of this stuff it should work whether it's 200 AD or 1000 BC or in 500 years time it should still be the same stuff who cares about the time and the days what means it's one thing happening before the other chrono stamp and Craig had a huge huge problem trying to understand this idea and so he had to look up himself other time stamping ideas from other people and stuff and so he added those just trying to tell my explanation so he added those references in the white paper because his references time understand the white paper right there's how ignore the white references the white paper there's how bullshit they are at least two of the references are Craig's references that he looked up trying to understand what the hell he explained them right have you ever heard something like that before kind of some of my academic days where I'd write up a paper and then have to go through after the fact and figure out who else has said something similar so that I don't get pinged for not having references because I actually think I don't know what you think about this but I actually think it's kind of slow sometimes to try to build your knowledge based on reading other people's work it's like you got to get the ideas you got to get a clear conception of the problem that you're trying to solve and the concepts involved in trying to solve the problem but you don't have to master all of their failed attempts it's like I find it actually it's more efficient to try to just clean slate solve a problem in theory come up with your own concepts and then if somebody else has thought of something similar great if they haven't great I think it's actually quicker that way yeah well I'll cover two points when it comes to that one is the the use of the Merkle tree that was purposely done so that the paper will be more accepting in the crypto community I was actually designed was like a BSP type tree a binary space partition tree from my 3D programming days I've been able to cleft the data and divide it up again and again and break it down until it gets to where the concave geometry is and that's the leaf the way that when you're a 3D shooter going around you actually shoot out rays out towards the planes and if you're on this side of the plane you generate those that geometry if you're on the other side you can just cut it and just not even look at all that data very efficiently be able to traverse trees and get data in and out that was an original idea to use but to make it acceptable I had to use this Merkle tree the idea is to use a binary space partition but you had hashes from the concave data back up the branches all the way up to the root and then Craig came in and said oh that reminds me of something comes back and shows me this thing about a Merkle tree here's the idea of the hashes but not all this other stuff we can actually hook any data at all and not just transactions they're not just cash transactions transactions could be anything one I give you a digital image and you give me something else that's digital and no cash has exchanged but still a transaction to actually holding actual data inside the stuff thought we won't use that what we'll use but still had the hashes between each one up to the root hash I said no we won't use that we will have this Merkle one purely because it's well known in the crypto community and for this to be more accepted in the crypto community will use something that they're used to and Craig was actually against that he thought this space partition top tree thing I figured out was so much more superior that we should go with it anyway I said no no no one of the things we need here is for the crypto community to accept it or at least be able to at least some of them come on board alright and so there's a lot of that that's some so the BSP thing you're talking about I don't know anything about that this is something that you just it was like I'm just going to create a functioning system and then we'll step back and see if anybody has done anything like this that's kind of an original creation you're saying what most of is original creation and well with this here because I didn't make up binary space partitioning that comes from Wolfenstein O3D, you got quake, you got doom in software the BSP trees were existed beforehand but they used that in doom or quake one of them to divide up the geometry of the environment you're in alright and it became quite well known and so I thought well that's what I came to to try and try and you have a block of data and how to make it so that you can check it you just want to be able to check the header type thing and not check single data and once it's been checked you just want to confirm that and know the rest is correct or if any piece of data has changed you want to be able to easy do that or track it or be able to clip things off like leaves or for branch or whatever if you don't need that anymore I just figured that out because it needed to be figured out what data structure to use until the intense amount of effort to do that and then have Craig just turn around and say oh well the merkle trees exist I thought I knew about that I would have gone straight to the merkle tree but I would not have allowed me to figure out this awesome thing structure that was even better exactly and that's like you were saying before about the value of mental patterns even if they're wrong so your understanding of the problem and the solution by coming up with this BSP thing that even if it didn't work that's still going to build your understanding of the system the concepts involved potential resolutions the pros and cons between that and the merkle tree that's very valuable better and also it means that when I see a merkle tree my brain because you're based upon all experiences and hooks inside your head with the ideas and memories and experiences now that I've gone through that process whenever I see a merkle tree in that or think of it I've got all this other information that I can bring to it that others don't because they get taught merkle tree and that's it it's isolated from all the other knowledge yeah so yeah the other thing the point was that the Nick Sarbo's thing with big gold and the comparisons compared to what he's written about big gold and they were very similar to what Bitcoin is so it must have influenced in that which is not true at all now this caused a bit of a problem because Craig when he had told these people when they asked them the white paper or the draft copy was being released to a few people they came back and said big gold and since he wanted to fit into this community he accepted he said yes and then he came to me and said oh you've got these people saying it's based on big gold and I said I said look through our emails do we ever talk about big gold? I don't think so I said right everything every paper we saw we'd read it we'd rip every paragraph and every sentence apart put back together again we'd look through the references you'd try and communicate with the author we'd go through the references rip those two pieces put back together again you'd try and get those authors and then we'd go through their references and pull those ones and pull them apart and talk about them at any stage do we get the big gold white paper go through it rip it to pieces put back together go through the big gold references and get them and do you talk to try and communicate with at some stage to see if that big gold white paper was no none of that happened because we've never talked about big gold it was mentioned on Hal Finney's reputable reusable pref of works website and I went to try and go to the link and I suppose it's been thrown thrown for a while the link just goes to an unenumerated site started reading through it went through about a third of the documents listed there nothing about big gold tried searching his site nothing but where's his famous big gold the very first link on Nick's site says here's my link to my new stuff and I never clicked on it I thought I don't want this old stuff this big gold stuff this new stuff is bigger and so I never went there only after this conversation with Craig and him telling them oh yeah it's big gold I put it in I said where's the link to it site I said there's nothing saying big gold on Nick's Zabo's main site right and he goes and he talked to Dave and Dave it's the first link I said what the one that says my new stuff he goes yeah I said why would I click on this new stuff right clicked on it it's got a few blogs but it's just like one of them is on big gold summary of big gold I think it's a summary only goes for about a page and a half worth of text but that's not a white paper that's like a summary because it starts off saying oh years ago I posted something about big gold but that surely can't be just it because it's like someone saying it's been two minutes saying about an idea and that's it well where's the depth where's the details how is it going to work all you see in some blah blah blah there's something bullshit if you're from a game programming game programming and developers environment like game dev game dev.net and all the others using from 2000s you always had these guys that had ideas they wanted you to sign NDAs to tell you their idea and their idea is this game with the love mounts of this other game and that's my game and all I needed to is find a developer to actually build it and since it's my idea I get 95% and they build it and they'll get 5% of any like no the efforts and the execution not the idea the developer should get 95% and they'll say but it's my idea I said not idea other people's ideas you have no idea no concept of how it takes to develop something to actually put the details in and build it and get artists and stuff so that's effectively what I see Nick Zabri did he's just give him a few ideas that other people had talked about chuck them in there he's talking about property property legions or something like that some weird thing and that's it no tears of how you'd actually make it work as I was saying I want to make some boots you put them on and you have them walk vertically up a wall great how can you actually do that in reality but it's my idea and it came first and some of us invented some anti gravity boots a few years later and went up a wall so they must have got it from my my idea right no it actually annoys me how much standing he's gained in the community because some people if you were a reader if you read Nick Zabri's The Gold or at least the summary that's on his website go through his new stuff to look at his old stuff and and then compare it to the Bitcoin way paper and you think well that that could that what Nick says here if you change the words it could mean that in Bitcoin you change the words there and coming that in Bitcoin oh and maybe not but I think Nick might be Satoshi because I can almost match this up a bit is the same too this oh computers and bits and bytes and nibbles I'm not surprised by that at all what's really interesting to hear is again the community side of it that Craig you can see this in Craig's behavior he desperately wants to be accepted in the cool kids club in the community so that story again seems eminently plausible to me that he's going around and saying yeah yeah this is like your guys' work isn't it great when it's not well does your family know your story did they know who you what you've done kill your civilization and everything so it's the only one I know yeah my martial arts is a little bit only in the last year in that back you know all she knew is that there was some some months that I was really concerned I was going to the door with a kitchen knife behind my back looking through the peephole to see how it was wow I was prepared to this even though I'd end up jail or whatever like that my family had to probably go back to New Zealand I was prepared to open the door and stab it right into their throat for about three months I was really had concerns that because you thought that people assumed you were fantastically wealthy and we're going to try to extort you or something back in turn because of my memory the timelines all screwed up I can't remember much from late turn 11 on June 12 maybe June 13 so I think most of this happened late turn 11 but maybe later how we got wind of not only three leader agencies actively hunting us we already knew they were sniffing out the community but once Gavin went to visit them I thought they're not even doing it secretly they've gone to the current top head person of the project and said come and visit us and give us a one on one presentation this is Gavin you're saying yeah he couldn't say no if he said no but obviously his phone will be tapped and this will be that everything will be checked out over him I don't know if he realized at the time that his phone calls would have been tapped at that stage probably months beforehand and also there were people actively boasting in the community that they were actually funding private investigators to hunt us down wow thousands and thousands and thousands to actively hunt us down I thought well this will test my operational security of how paranoid and do you find out one of those is to be a real ask not everyone's nice millions of people will start dying because prefer work for Bitcoin consuming electricity in the middle of winter when people need power for their ultra heaters they have brownouts because Bitcoin in the middle of the night is taking the electricity and they start freezing to death in winter at nighttime and in the middle of summer they want to cool themselves down but there's brownouts because electricity is for Bitcoin mining and people start dying from heat stroke and that they're not kind of thinking of Satoshi as this lovely person after all they're probably going to think this Satoshi is an asshole that's killing people and should now be jailed for the murder of millions of people that's where we're heading so it's okay Craig carries on claiming he's Satoshi and I'll just say interesting fan fiction story because I've already planned on this evil villain stuff of the deaths of millions of people even the risk of even my mother if it happens in New Zealand that she needs the heater on in the middle of winter and it gets a brownout because of Bitcoin and she's perishing that's one timeline there are many universes going into the future that's one timeline that exists and I had to weigh that up and think well if that happens what's the benefit human's existence or that so something put out to the world there's going to be a lot of misery by the end what if to get to if your body's ill and you've got cancer in it you've got to cut it out but to cut that out you've got to wound yourself yeah I mean I'm not even I hear what you're saying I'm not even sure that the dystopia needs to play out I mean it's very possible that there are other brilliant entrepreneurs out there and coders out there who come up with technology that really do save us from a lot of those a lot of those problems and I think as the price if the price of electricity spikes imagine that's going to bring that many more entrepreneurs into the market trying to create cheaper and cheaper electricity something we can't even think of the way the way the system is it's going to happen anyway the more you go it's fantastic that if electricity comes cheap and abundant then we've got our our excess of electricity or energy civilization we can start having robots doing our work everywhere we don't have to go to a 8 hours a day dead end job pushing some numbers around which means absolutely nothing that job could not exist you could not exist and nothing changes to the universe what's the point in existing give it in the center for human beings to exist or so if it comes out cheap it's more expensive there'll be those that come out saying I've got a cheaper way of generating electricity or if it's if it's costing much we're using coal at the moment it's costing much now because it's no longer being subsidized by the by the nations then we can go well now solar is cheap enough and economical at the moment it's almost borderline but the other idea is this transfer of wealth from the fair care system into geeks and nerds not all of them but more a high percentage of geeks and nerds in the crypto world is so that even if it's something technological advanced is not economic in the fair currency world huge solar panels across the equator and all the rest even you've got planet and you put them in orbit you've got geostationary orbit so it's actually as it's rotating around it's fine you've actually got this way around have it just like as a moon our moon faces the sun right it's always facing the sun we can do the same thing with satellites so that if that's where the sun's coming from the satellites rotate this way the solar satellite the solar panels are always facing the sun 24 hours a day and then just have them being back down to us and since the solar power at the moment you open your eyes up in water in a swimming pool you open your eyes it's all blurry that's what the solar energy is at the moment to our solar panels on the ground it's got to go through our atmosphere right it dissipates energy is getting dissipated diffused it's our solar panels those solar panels are in orbit above our atmosphere the single one the amount of of energy transfer will be magnitude higher than having them on the ground here all right so yeah so we've got to do that type of thing so there are ways to increase it the idea is have more death and destruction first and have the target being this phantom person finally and and then have energy abundance we've got energy abundance we don't have to worry about the price of Bitcoin if electricity was unlimited well in an unlimited electricity top society we don't need Bitcoin anymore so we've got something far better we don't need it anymore one level of analysis which you're kind of saying that Bitcoin is simply a way to raise the price of electricity it's a means it's a means to an end a climate destruction within a single generation it's a means to an end the end will be you'll still value things differently if you've got to walk 200 meters down the road you'll value shoes more than bare feet if you've got to go a couple of kilometers away you'll value a push bike more than your shoes if you've got to go say 5-10 kilometers away you'll value a car more than your push bike so even if machines are building grabbing material out of the ground and refining it and manufacturing it's all machines the price that you pay for each item will be different because you value it differently so you'll still have shoes are cheaper than bicycles bicycles are cheaper than than cars but it's a whole prefer work type thing we need to get rid of it we don't need it anymore we've got unlimited electrical energy being generated and the idea is to do that with a single generation a lot of work needs to be done for that to happen a lot of work I think that's a natural and excellent place to end this session thanks for talking to you Steve thanks very much Phil so before we start again last time when we spoke preface about what your goal is so like we're in this weird circumstance where assuming you are another part of Satoshi which is the assumption that I'm making you're kind of, you've been hidden for a long time and now you're kind of coming you're kind of tiptoeing more into the light and I want to make sure I respect your privacy as much privacy as you want but have you clarified are you planning on being public or is this still going to be kind of a slow thing because that's going to determine kind of the questions I ask you how forward do you want to be well that's one of the difficult things at the moment is that like on my website the disclaimer or truth or proof of anything and that's strange enough that no third party has even verified anything I've said so far which restricts on how much I cannot do I've got some people in the community what made to come in and stand up against Satoshi and people in that which you cannot do unless you can verify your position in the past otherwise I'm just some random case the other issue is that from how it was being designed and built out at the time I was never especially at least initially come forward and always do things through surrogates at least while we're building up the second foundation which is basically the foundation to control the first foundation and only if things were okay we would put out actual real names forward but it really looked like that probably was never going to happen however in the last couple of years because of some certain actions from certain people that's changing to do what was originally planned without being more more public alright or at least public enough to stop other people doing what they're doing and so I go back into the background background manipulation type stuff again like you're saying which direction well it's actually better both it's very difficult to ask some of these questions because of circumstances so when you say you're kind of you know becoming more public to prevent some people from doing some things does that mean that you see what Craig is doing you're worried about let's say the future of bitcoin or you're worried about some nefarious business that's going on or maybe connections with groups that you think are dangerous or detrimental and so that's what you want to stop and so that's why you're coming out is because of that saying things like stop is a bit yeah the idea is this whole thing is based upon perceptions and manipulation guiding like Mr Filler said about being a trim tab you want to be able to tweak it here or put an article out there that'll guide people's thoughts and stuff and so it's not a matter of putting a stop on it it's like stopping a river, you don't stop a river the idea is to guide the banks to make a curve where you want it to go of course there are dams but there are issues but you don't need to take analogies so far things like let's start with Craig himself he gave us words on certain actions or non-actions which is effectively broken of what he's done and I'm not really the type of person that you want to break your word on it's probably the Scottish blood type thing I'm not lying for another 100 years or whatever I'll still go right, you gave your word right? and I'll just say you can back out of it so that part of the issue which will need to be addressed at some stage but then he's leveraging that for this new client with N-Chain and Queen Geek and everything else saying he's not Satoshi but it's my bit Queen and this is the way I want it to go if you don't well I'm going to talk to I wasn't going to have N-Chain and Queen Geek talk to the other miners and to use their client but we don't want control, we don't want to centralise and miners are the main thing and developers are rubbish but not our developers they want our developers code that will be forking off of Bitco and ABC but their stuff's rubbish even though we're forking off that and adjusting it so the whole narrative from those guys is concerning so when you're looking at it I know we talked before about the big picture vision is this is planetary civilisation money essentially, this is one piece of the puzzle and a much, much bigger picture progression of humans is that the thing that you would like to preserve or you would like to try to preserve is actually that vision or is it like the Craig version is maybe seeing it in a much smaller perspective You understand what I like people crap all over Craig all the time like I did a little bit just before however, he's got some attributes that I haven't seen in other people it's great at absorbing a lot of knowledge not necessarily the understanding of it but I read about it between Origins and Story about how he'd read a white paper and then he'd try to contact the author or the authors of that white paper to see if there's been an update because some of these white papers are like 10 years old, 20 years old and surely they wouldn't just stop they would have researched more he'd try to contact the authors to see new developments then you go through the references and read those references to the authors of these new updates so he was always trying to I've never seen it before usually people read a white paper and they think that's it nothing else, they didn't even contact the authors unless they just bump into them somehow in some industry meeting and just take that as facts even though it might be 20 years old 30 years old, 40 years old and I'm talking about people that are high up in the tech world not necessarily publicly but at least I'm very knowledgeable Craig would actually do this extra digging which is great, there's great as a gopher a gopher, this gopher that because he'll dig down and grab the real information and the up-to-date information that you wouldn't be able to get anywhere else so as a like an errand boy or a gopher type thing it was brilliant which is what it effectively was the invention phase, I was trying to figure this stuff out in mid-2008 as time progressed though the idea was to task him with building up the network once it was running while I was supposed to work on the background type stuff but yeah, so people knocking a lot but he has got some strong attributes that no one else has got so would you say that part of his role was any of it technical and or was it intellectual in the sense that I know he's fetching a lot of information and trying to present it, maybe trying to understand it but when you were going back and forth was this like hey let me bounce this idea off this person I really respect who grasps the concepts and then that'll give me some feedback the way I really end up working is for operational security the idea is to have a shield between myself and everyone else which is what Craig and Dave were so there was an Anastasi team which is us three and then there was the Anastasi team which was anyone that Craig got in contact with to try and answer my questions alright I don't know how many there might be half an hour there might have been 20, I don't know I want to make sure I didn't know who he was communicating with just so that at that time in the government there's a cabinet and then information from the cabinet meeting gets leaked out and no one knows who leaked it so meeting just two people I was in contact with means if any information leaked out about me I knew which two would have done it right and so I didn't want to know who was who else was involved or anything else or what was communicated so I'd bounce ideas off of them and some ideas and go back and forth quite often had to dig further from it and then try and contact someone and ask my questions to those people when back and that was quite intense for weeks and weeks on end but when it comes to technical expertise one of the examples I've given out to a few people which is also in that the origin story was about private public keys about signing and he was totally confused with the idea of the public key was the key that the public saw and had access to and the private key was the secret key you keep to yourself he just could not get his head around it and that's like almost fundamental even though there was no technical computing or crypto expertise you describe about what the word private means what public means in a way he could not understand that he could spell off about the algorithms and stuff P, K and whatever else he could throw the algorithms around and stuff and swap them around and wouldn't be able to understand what the hell he's on about but because he couldn't even understand the basics of the private key is the one you keep to yourself you made me question is the math right in the first place alright yeah, so again he had a lot of knowledge but some of his understanding is not quite there this is what's concerned to me about any client all this is Toshi's vision they're pushing forward it's because he never understood Toshi's vision in the first place so we're in this really weird circumstance 3 years he was in the inner circle getting the actual raw information and he still did not understand it when that lock I'm starting to rank now that one megabyte maximum block cap was put in mid-2010 he had two or three people like Harlan Norris wanting to be put in just in case he came to me about it and I said I gave him all the reasons why it should not be there, if anything there would always be a buffer the average amount of transactions for say fortnight 216 blocks and there would be a buffer above it, so there's spam and if it hits against the upper buffer then the fees will rise it will transfer the wealth of the fees from the spammer to the miners until the spammer's got no more money transfer of wealth from an arsehole to people that are useful in the network and then also undergone so it's supposed to increase and increase and the other I think you've told people about this about a couple of years ago and they should put out some bits that have actually been created about like bit 100 and a few others that are pretty much exactly what was supposed to happen in the first place Yeah, they call them the adjustable block size cap Exactly, there's supposed to be a buffer there's ways to do it, almost like a Venn diagram how you've got two circles in the section when one starts going against the buffer that's the way when it's in that middle zone it's flexible only when it's past then it's in the next level that's the level, so it's bump now it's two megabytes and say it was decreased and it goes into again that Venn diagram zone and while it's in there it's still at the two megabytes but only when it goes to the threshold bang now it's down to one so this idea that merchants won't be able to adapt to it and all this it's not an issue at all it was always meant to be like that, I told him all this but he was he followed what Harlan and the others was saying because if he didn't do that they had, in his mind had more standing than in the Satoshi handle so if there was a fork in the repo at that stage that Harlan's idea of having this locked kept size and all of a sudden he won't have any network and and took so long to build it up to that stage he was always afraid that if he makes a change or doesn't make a change if he doesn't make a change is that the community said they wanted or he made a change that I wanted but the community hadn't said they wanted that all of a sudden he'd lose control of the Bitcoin network and be forked off it and that's basically why I forked off and went on to other things because he stopped implementing what needed to be put in there so I have a couple questions I told him it was going to screw everything up and that's exactly what happened so I have two follow up questions on that one I guess is an observation and then a follow up question the observation is this is such a weird circumstance it's so weird because you've got so let's say there's three main parts to the Satoshi group the one who is public who has tried to be public is this mixture of high level of skill in particular areas in research areas or at least the fetching of information if not conceptually understanding it but he I've asked a couple of times whether or not he's technically competent and I'm asking for a specific reason when I consume his content I'm not a technical guy I'm a conceptual guy when I consume his writing I listen to it most of it I would say two thirds of it is bad is self evidently bad and it might be that maybe he's just a bad communicator and he actually understands what's going on but the way it comes across and I know a lot of people feel this way like in the Bitcoin Cash community is that the guy actually fundamentally understands and even if he does the mathematics stuff if you're not a mathematics guy I'm not a mathematics guy it might even be that he's doing the same with the mathematics that he manipulates the symbols but he doesn't really understand what he's talking about and the only way you can really understand whether or not he knows what he's talking about is if you understand the material yourself which neither of us do so it's this bizarre circumstance where somebody might actually be part of the fundamental group and yet not really grasp the basics very fair someone just mentioned the other day that even the people that built the Taj Mahal had had some that cleaned the toilets and I thought well that's a bit low but I thought that not everyone on the team is necessarily doing the actual thinking or the understanding like the errand boy or the gopher type person it's got great research skills to get the information but it's the understanding that's problematic you're always going to go by the thought of it's not dumbing down things down but to make it as simple as possible for the general public to understand that's why the Bitcoin White Paper was written in that way you might notice it's not written like any other type of white paper crypto or academic or otherwise it's written like a conversation between two people trying to explain something in as concise way possible there was emails from me to him they said there's long emails and if you communicate I don't know if he still does this but what he used to do is he would scan things quickly so you might say he's reading all these books but usually he'd only read like speed reading or skipping them simple way through he's absorbed some of the information not all of it so he can pull back information and quote this and quote that but since he hasn't actually read it in detail in depth he hasn't got the understanding but yeah he was doing this time and time again and um yeah okay so that is it's so funny too that kind of the BCH community could be correct here that both Craig is part of Satoshi and somehow doesn't grasp the fundamentals which is so it's so bizarre but that to me from the outside not having all this inside information that is the only story I've heard so far of course plus listening to and reading your article and talking with you that actually makes complete sense because there are some little bits of information that Craig drops that are like oh wow that's pretty deep that's pretty profound that seems like he has inside knowledge and then you know he his writing is you can't read it and it's got a bunch of typos everywhere and at the same time again it's like you've got to try and um like the white paper it's written so that someone in a high school level will be able to grab it and understand it and I thought of um if if you ever read I don't know if you're an academic yourself if you ever read any of these academic papers or white papers um quite often every two or three sentences you've got to reach for a dictionary or reach for a thesaurus and then for a dictionary to understand what they're saying and if you've got to reach for that six times in one paragraph they're not communicating the message the whole point of communication is you've got something inside your skull you want to put it inside other people to many people's skulls at the same time whether the academic level or not you've got to get that message across and if people are having to grab for a dictionary every few sentences you are the one that's finding to communicate so the idea is it's not thumbing it down at all it's using better vocabulary and grammar so that's why the white paper is like that this is literally why I was so persuaded by your story when I read it because there are I don't know what you think about this I'd like to hear your thoughts I think it's actually a sign of deep deep understanding when you have the ability to communicate in a way that a high school person can understand and if your only way of communicating is clunky and it requires unnecessarily large words I think it's actually reflective of not really understanding what you're talking about so when you say there's the academic level that's got all this jargon in it I think in reality the academic level actually it's not clear because if it was clear they wouldn't have to use that clunky terminology oh yeah but there's also the flip side of this because it's not black and white it's all shades of grey and on scaling and the other side of that there's something that's technical sometimes you do actually need a base level of knowledge to be able to understand some of this there was always the risk of the white paper there's about four words that we'll actually have to look up to understand it but that's it but most people you've got to say it's maths what we just said before you've got to become a mathematician to understand the maths like the hash cash oh we had them back you read that I'd read the first few lines of it and then I was communicating with Dave saying hey this thing's grey Dave's the one that showed me about it you can actually manipulate the adjust the amount of bits in front to actually make it harder and make it easier and then just the next paragraph down I read it and she talked about changing the targeting bits the difficulty oh that's great again and then he went on to the maths and I started glazing over bullshit maths does it work or not that's what I care about doesn't matter what the squiggles mean doesn't work right it was based on his references for my other stuff but he didn't really do anything with it just put a name on it but it was never usable anyway because the way the targeting worked and the previous types of preferred work was that either double and difficulty or half in difficulty alright so big chomp chomp chomp chomp you can't use that ever to say if that was what was put in use in big coin and we still use say 216 blocks in 10 minutes it will either stay the same rate half or double you'll see how straight it moved up over the years imagine it going double and then it gets really bad in the seasons and people switch off the measures at half and then half and then double that's the hash rate that's just bonkers the only way to make it usable is to make it so that you could actually increase it by a percentage not many people talk about that part but without that part preferred work would not be usable at all so I was thinking this thing that's broken people say all these things existed before big coin no they didn't this piece that was broken existed this other piece that was broken didn't work and it was fixed and then put together into a system what more difficult than people thought it was when you said that it made me think not to go on a tangent here with regards to the maths and the meaning of the symbols I don't know how much background knowledge you have about the history of mathematics but I literally just released a video on my youtube channel about the history of mathematics and some of the developments it used to be that mathematics cared about truth mathematicians cared about the truth and careful reasoning about true premises but now it's turned in since the last century it's like formalism is this methodology where it doesn't even matter what your symbols mean they have explicitly stripped a meaning out of mathematics what matters is that you have your symbols by which you manipulate the symbols and that your manipulation of those symbols is logically valid regardless of it, literally regardless if it's connected to reality at all that's what a huge part of modern mathematics is built on so it's funny when you say that you saw the math and your eyes glossed over I thought yeah well maybe there's enough maybe because there's nothing there yeah yeah right it's not that I can't do maths I'm not a mathematician type minded person right in my win32 assembly days in early 2000s we had to do a lot of matrices 4x4 calculations for the 3D programming and stuff so I learnt how to do all that stuff on pieces of paper and all the rest just so that I can actually make functions on it so that if you make your first person a person moving around and how they move around like rotation and translation compared to driving a car and being able to offset where the wheels are so that in a wheel actually tunes less than the outer wheel type thing right all the way to the aircraft so the rotation needed in a car or a person that's in from but rotation in aircraft you're in the picture that compared to a spacecraft so work out all the best for it I worked it out meaning me I got it together I made the functions I didn't have to know the maths anymore I just had to know which function to grab call and how it went to apply it the maths is like that for everything even there's crypto stuff you don't have to know crypto to muck around in this industry the base functions you might need to know crypto to make the base functions after that you don't need to know that you just have to know which function to grab and when to apply it forget everything else you don't have to recall all this maths right and there's a big difference too even in the realm of mathematics between applied mathematics cryptography is maybe one of the best examples and theoretical are what they call pure mathematics which is explicitly devoid of its connection to reality there's a funny quote by Bertrand Russell where he says roughly mathematics can be defined as the area of study in which we never know what we're talking about we don't know we don't know what we're talking about nor whether or not what we're saying is true and that's like a tongue-in-cheek quip because at that point when he was writing the state of mathematics has said well math isn't about anything it's not actually about the world or reality and then the second part is a reference to girdle's incompleteness theorems we never know what we're saying is true girdle's incompleteness theorems are this like weird outgrowth of formalist mathematics he said it tongue-in-cheek but I think it's actually quite revealing of the state of some pure mathematics that actually doesn't get at anything or isn't applicable to the real world at all what I'd put onto that is I've mentioned somewhere asked before about which may be also something like I've written down there sorry when I was doing avionics technician course in 88 and 92 in New Zealand we went to this avionics type avionics and electronics and we were talking about say transformers the pure math type part of it will be you have a perfect transformer so you've got ductions and you've got current and voltage and what's coming out but that's not practical in the real world and you're making up a real circuit board you want your transformer to act as a real transformer and it's got different impedances it's got inductance in it you've got a resistor there and you've got capacitance and a risk and so what you do you start with the perfect transformer and then you start adding in reality like the couple Y's got resistance and then since it's it's a loop it turns inductance so the current is 90 degrees out from voltage and you slowly add these things up until you've got a little circuit that represents the transformer it's just a real attribute of it and you can plug it into your circuitry and so all the currents of voltage are correct you cannot use a perfect transformer to build anything but it is a basis to actually build something that's practical but I prefer the applied side of it than just the up here right and this there's a part of your article on bitcoin origins which I love which is when you're talking about this as it applies to the Byzantine generalist problem where okay you've got a perfect problem that can't be solved oh it's mathematically proven that you can't solve the Byzantine generalist problem and so these academic types that I don't think have deep understanding or care necessary about the world they go oh well there's no reason to try to solve the Byzantine generalist problem because it's mathematically impossible to solve preposterous not in the real world no exactly exactly where I use that transformer reference and then you add an okay right let's say we don't want a perfect solution but we want a practical solution what would that look like and you go well it means this happens and this happens this has got to happen and that's when I figure out that but what really is you look at everyone else's solution beforehand where they actually use a centralized server or servers for checking whether this bit was flipped or not things like that I think well you don't need to be so precise because for one thing we're not having a server for the time but yeah it ends up being it's just a decision making machine because what do you really want to do all the generals want to know what is the decision the decision is to keep laying siege or to attack or to retreat what is the decision and so you need another thing that would be able to record the decision made by everyone and that everyone knows that everyone knows everyone's decision that type of thing and the only way that to happen is that everyone needs to have the same database same data and so you slowly build up these actual elements and it just fell into place as soon as you had the actual thinking process of how to go about solving it solving it was actually the easy part well exactly the difficult part the difficult part of actually making it work in the real world was the incentivization system which was not that solution so you have a technical solution but to make it practical you need an incentivization system which is not even in the white paper because it was developed after the white paper just like the scripting system was developed after the white paper they never even been December two questions I guess the one was kind of a tangent about math the other question is you mentioned that part of the reason that you left when you did is because Craig was stuck on this one megabyte block size he didn't understand and he didn't want to change the code and you said you left you forked off working on other projects I know from the forums or whatever one of those was name coin what were the other projects if any that you were working on right after you left bitcoin well the way it really worked is it's not like walking into a takeaway place wanting to order something someone says you can't and you go oh and you turn around and walk out it's not instant like this I decided to leave about early 2010 early 2010 we've got a new bitcoin talk message board in December not the new logo in January, February 2010 so I get a few other people into like John Matonis to mention bitcoin so you said you got that to happen no no well we did because I'm going through surrogates have you spoken with John Matonis at all I don't know my email account was the GMX account so if his communications was via the GMX account it would have been me most of the external communication went through the other so that would have been through the VCML account so if any IPs like the other ones that would be targeted you'll always need to have the full guy alright I don't know if I mentioned before it's like when you go swimming I tell my boy you don't have to swim faster than Australia you don't have to swim faster than the sharks you just have to make sure there's a person between you and the sharks and I'm usually telling them when we're actually in the water above our heads there's people around me I'm speaking a loud voice they can actually hear me saying this these people in front of you and they are turning around and getting a bit concerned and I'm saying sharks get them first alright so the same thing if you're doing something that that's in governments or agencies or companies not really like you doing once they figure out what you're doing it's better they actually have other people that will have their IPs leaked before yours so most of the stuff that goes through them I don't know if I communicate with John directly or not strange enough this is you're asking a question and I'm just not answering it I'm going sideways the November release it had the white paper it had the viste mail account on it cause Greg released it we've done the draft it sent it out to a few people and then said here's the link why didn't you show me the draft I didn't know what was in it alright I sent him stuff I was assuming he was putting other stuff in it but didn't and people were communicating via the viste mail account that's what was used in the mailing lists that was on the white paper because I always had 12 hour shifts 4 days on 4 days off back and forth communications someone's asking the question to the viste mail account and then using our internal account Greg will send the question to me I'll think about it send it back to him to send it back to this guy and this was happening rapidly I've got to go to work see you later and I'm not back online for another 13 hours so here's Greg answering this guy the guy's sent another question and Greg's asking me to answer it I'm not answering I'm off the word and so it happened over a few days or like a few weeks and he got so frustrated of what does he say when all of a sudden there's no answer coming through and I say just tell him you're off to work that's what I'd do so in about the third week of November so I wound up about this that there was an update to the white paper just a few spelling mistakes or grammar changes but also the most important one is the email address was changed alright so the email was changed to my one the GMX one just so that these questions would come directly to me alright and we'd have these communications back and forth back and forth so some of these people that were having communications with Satoshi back in November December they should actually especially the ones that were having these fast conversations that were suddenly cut off they should have a record of that Craig's never going to mention it or even the reason why it was changed or anything but these guys would actually have a physical record of these emails back and forth conversations stopped didn't restart for 13-14 hours every few days so back to the question what was the question again oh the question was let's see if I answered this time the question was I'm not dodging it like Craig does no no I know I was telling my wife Julia about the conversation we had last time and I was saying well the nature of it was you ask a question and then there's a very long long aside kind of half answering the question but then it always comes back around that's an important part back in I was got a trip to the Satoshi Round Table in February at the beginning of the year 2018 and in one of the nights we had a few people come around for this meal over and I was just drinking tequila I might have had tequila when I was in the Air Force around 1990 I used to get bottle caps to put tequila in and stuff it in you get instantly drunk in seconds you have to drink beer for half an hour but anyway beginning of this year in Mexico here are proper tequilas with Mexican tequila and all the rest delicious I had quite a few of those so I was answering questions like you are they were asking me questions like you are I was answering them I was getting more and more slosh up until what midnight or one o'clock in the morning so I was just drinking away answering them about a month or so later when Craig was in these meetings and getting up and people asked him direct questions like what's the whole point of why is it being halved every four years with a million maximum release of coin and he completely dodged the questions every time I was answering your questions and I was all for my face there is a big difference between me and Craig he might be able to recall the stuff as I said before if I don't do it on a regular basis my brain goes just lock that away you are not going to get it back again but at least the stuff that does come back is not a problem anyway that's the question so the question was what projects were you working on I know you said there wasn't an a la carte list but what were you researching what were the world problems you thought how can I solve this next well not usually world problems you have to remember that it wasn't a case of done be done through a lifetime but right now I'm going to do this thing and then going to other things I was already I'm to the top of the person that would go by and I thought why do I work for someone else's be an employee for someone else for all these years doing something that's not going to be important at all when I can do it myself type thing entrepreneurs I go to bookstores and get the entrepreneurial books and get by five at a time the top sellers for the month read them through the month at the end of the month go back to the bookstore grab the next shelf we'll get say four or five books grab them and read them again and again and most of the stuff is like motivational gunk like horoscopes and stuff right generic just motivational stuff that only works while you're reading it once you put it down it's not so good and every now and then I take a snippet just one or two phrases that are good the rich dad poor dad books they're good for telling you that the idea is to work there what you've got to do is say how can I or where can I or why can't I and that engages your brain you might not get the solution but at least your brain is being engaged rather than sitting idle and another book talks about leveraging other people's time and expertise even though you could learn this stuff and do it yourself if you want to scale you've got to be able to offload delegate to others even though they're not going to do it as good as well as you would be able to do it hence a lot of the stuff that's broken in bitcoin was because I was finding those instructions I was leveraging other people I was I tried to do it I thought how can I leverage leverage to Dave and Craig and then have them leverage other people and all of a sudden I'm doing the work of a hundred people and I'll delegate off but it means that the work itself is rubbish the client code is garbage the interface is nuts I show someone a few months ago the type of interface I was making in the early 2000s when I was doing Win32 assembly I was making interfaces you know your scanning of apps that you see with Winamp and the scanning of it to make it nice funny shapes and stuff like that that's what I was practicing techniques of how to do that in the Win32 assembly community and that's the interface I wanted to bring to the Bitcoin client something that's looks it's called skew skewomorphic so that a button looks like a button and a label looks like a label and it actually looks like the texture of leather or it looks like the texture of something else to make it a normal business it's used to look at the current mechanical items can look at the an app and go ah that looks like that switch I know it's a switch I can switch it right it looks like a label that I see a label over there so that looks like a label I know it's a label to read I shouldn't be trying to tap that or change it right that's how to onboard millions of people that are not technically capable so you know a lot of I was looking at entrepreneurial books one of the things I was doing is in February 2008 so just a few weeks before I went to Dave in the ISE channel I was reading neuro-lyndicrystic programming and then the Myers-Briggs stuff and reading all this stuff learning it and trying to apply and trying to get some real feedback of how it would work or not or elements of it um everything's like in 2010 right so the bitcoin thing was still going but I was delicate others to do this stuff I was looking into something called a magic jack this is something in the US you plug into your computer you plug a phone jack into this little dongle that's on your computer you're basically making phone calls through the internet like the skype right and so I was looking at doing that and picking up a website and multi-level marketing system to encourage people to buy a whole bunch to have people underneath them and all that other type of stuff right the thing is ways to actually control and manipulate people to come on board and spread it but it had to be done in an economic sense now are you seeing like coupling magic jack with bitcoin is that the idea? no no no what it was for a magic jack at that time was that you could only sell like locally or all yourself through yourself but I had to set up a system almost like M-Way where you become your own little business and buy a bit of product and sell it and get you one if you and do it that way but do it in such a way so that it's bent the contract a little bit to be able to allow me to scale it across the continent but keep within the contract rules but I was looking into that it never succeeded in the end but that's one of the things another one was electric bikes at least assistant electric power kits so you swap your front wheel of your bicycle for this one it's got a big motor in it and you've got batteries three little batteries about this size in a back on a holder at the back of the bike there and you've got a throttle so when you handle grab grippers end up being a throttle and you're supposed to be pedal and this will give you power assistance I was getting some of those things that are important for a few people or trying to some of the 200 watt motors which were legal in Australia there was also 500 watt ones which weren't legal in Australia I got two of those in and used them to get to work alright a 50 minute car ride to work and one of the roads is a 70K an hour long road and this thing the 500 watt motor can get you up to 50Ks an hour alright and I've got a large fella so an average weighted person even faster so I own a security job so I have security uniform airport security with my backpack that had my laptop on the rest 200 dollar mountain bike with this 500 watt motor going at 50Ks an hour and you have all these lycra wearing cyclists with 5000 dollar bikes 10,000 dollar bikes they're all going flat out here I am just on it I had a pretend pedal I had a pretend pedal with them as I was passing them all the cars they were only going past me at 20Ks an hour going what the hell it's been on the lights obviously sweat pouring down me but it wasn't from exertion it's from fear because I was trying to hold on the whole time but yeah it's like that it's a electric bike that type of thing these are the type of jobs one was a website my father was involved in disability care type products over in the UK they wanted me to build up a New Zealand site so the mobility things like a potato pillow that handles nice and big and round type things so it doesn't hurt the palm of your hand or the extension pincher grip so you can grab a can that's above in the all those other things so I was working on the website side of it and I made things like product scrapers so the code to go through his entire website and scrap all the data off it and then store it in my own database and then be able to present it and build all this type of stuff up but due to things like well they're supposed to have got one of those half shipping containers of product and they never got around to doing that so I built all this website all the tech and not going to be used so this is the type of stuff I was doing over and over and over again this was after bitcoin or before bitcoin well before, during and after bitcoin was there doing that I delegated it to other people so once the machine started running in January 2009 Craig was delegated to build up the network so we could actually have real-world data of how much time it takes to get data to transmit between computers around the world and that's it and stuff you just have to build it up and every couple of weeks I keep saying well I've built it up, how many machines have you I've got this site and you haven't put in a message there but a message in this place I used to get really upset that I was stalking him online to check out whether he was actually doing this job or not but your proof of not actually sending is that I should be stalking you and checking up on you some people need to be micro-managed that's Craig other people alpha class type people you'd say I want that job done you figure out how to do it they will figure out how to do it Craig needs to be told what to do he's like a B class type employee you don't want to put him in charge of any damn thing because you have micro-managed him you say I want that done because he can't figure out how to get it done so the contrast between projects here is just gigantic you've got one where it's like you've created a technology that could unify the planet around a certain monetary system for a thousand years and then the others you're dealing with you know the little grabby things for people that have disabilities and scooters that seems like the mythological conception of Satoshi is that he went from working on this cosmic project to another cosmic project that we're going to find out about five years was it just like this is one project I'm working on among many and hey it's cool put it the other way around then what was Satoshi working on before Bitcoin in that case surely something mammoth and fantastic as well what was that so the myth actually breaks down if you analyze it at all this is okay look this way I was involved in the Win32 assembly community it started up in about 1998 1997 DOS is dead but Kant is assembly dead on Windows 95 and they forget how to make calls to the DLLs in libraries in Windows 95 from an assembly language program I got involved in 1999 come over to Australia here in 2000 and by 2001 that's when I was a moderator of the game and graphics forum of the message board because I translated DirectX 8 and DirectX 8.1 com files into their assembly equivalent so everyone now can use DirectX 8 and DirectX 8.1 from assembly language and that works based on others that have done got DirectX 7 and 6 working a little bit I just expanded it quite a substantial amount but without their work I wouldn't have been able to do it at all and so yeah I come from that area of of trying to build the stuff which doesn't exist before but there was no real huge project beforehand alright not at all it's a case of try a little thing try a little thing try a little thing you gotta remember I was an employee working 12 hours shifts 2 days night shift 2 days night shift on 4 days off which is great time for thinking in that but it doesn't allow you to get out and get a well paid job this is like minimum wage type just above minimum wage it wasn't great you're not going to own a house out of it you're not going to go anywhere you're not going to have holidays with your family at all didn't bring that type of income in and so to try and break out of that you're always trying to start your own little job can I make money doing this can I make money doing that can I make money doing this can I make money doing that and this project came along and when the assembly community since it's assembly right and this is the main point I was started to tell you about is that this is where all the viruses and malicious software comes from these are the people that do it you got the hackers and the crackers and the crackers are the ones that here's a popular game they go through with it with a hex editor and find out where the security is and break it there and then endow it from my website for that game and you got many assembly communities like that but our one we wanted to keep as white as possible actually greater white all these other assembly sites were like greater to dark and every now and then these other websites would be closed down because they're doing dark projects malicious software hacking government sites company sites stealing passwords and selling them and stealing software and selling it and we as moderators we try and stopping on people that come from these sites keep trying to do the stuff that the reason why their site was shut down was because they were behaving this way saying this is how you crack this process this is how you do this and we stopped it and so I wanted from my main handle that I used so that if in the future in 10, 20 years time people were searching for me and they found all this information because it's the internet hanging around some of it I didn't want them to find that I was involved in this crack I was involved in this hack whatever the scrawny handle did was always greater white I build a reputation around that so that someone will ask a question how to do something in the Windows 32 platform I'll wait a day to see if there's any answer there's no answer I'll go around do some research figure out how to do it see how to use rich lists and post a little proggy an example program showing how to do it and I do it that again and again and when I do that I'll learn a lot more and also my reputation anyone searching for this handle back then it's hardly anything appearing now would see all this white to grey type level I even talked about hacking processes when there was a need to it right, most of the time things would shut down so you go up towards Bitcoin alright or solve these simple electronic cash problems in early 2008 before Bitcoin actually existed right from the very start I knew this was going to be a black project basically my first main black project I've helped other people in the past on black projects for the user interface part of it which is a white level part of that and when they had the little scroll saying thanks to this person I made sure they took my name out of there but it was only the UI part that I helped them with in fact that little scrolling little floating thing is what I helped them with in some places but I didn't actually do any dark level stuff I do privately for practicing and stuff and since I knew this was going to be a black project anyway because one it's mucking around with electronic cash or money and every nation in the world has got policies against any citizens any citizens or anyone mucking around with their currency and there's also treason laws in every nation that you cannot do something whichever country you're a citizen of I'm not a citizen of Australia but I'm a citizen of a country and I've risen over here you cannot do something that's detrimental to the country itself the nation itself, it's treason and some nations that don't have capital laws they still have capital laws if you commit treason, oddly enough some of them and so since this is going to be so black that you had these two main things we don't know the answers to them yet but at that time we thought well we are going to be mucking around with money in that nation and as well as do something detrimental to that nation but we're not just doing it to the nation we're residing, we're doing it to every single nation on the planet so that level of risk is like really, really, really high so the idea is to go even blacker when it comes to it my scrawny handle was already had a good reputation that's the one that Dave and I communicated with initially I didn't want that painted whatsoever and so that's when I told Dave to tell his mate to create email accounts for us so will you communicate via those email accounts so there's actually a great line Dave is like my secret keeper he knew a lot of stuff Craig did not and, oddly enough, Craig instantly, even though he was told that I don't know anything about crypto at that stage I've dabbled in it years ago I didn't know much about it I didn't relearn it or again or from scratch he was willing to straight away create an account and we communicate with that one so Craig doesn't know me as Phil or Stronti at all Dave did and since I only have seconds to actually give him what he was named using the email account I think I would either use my middle name which is James or derivative like a Jamie so it's quite likely he knows me as Jamie so all this stuff online that Craig putting me down on abuse and insults maybe because he actually thinks I am a random nap case that's the other thing I wanted to ask you I'll keep going I'll ask about it later I've let him know in a few times though something that only we knew about so that it should have rung a bell instantly in his head so I'm still up and on does he think I'm just some sort of weird nutcase or does he know it's actually me but it's hard to tell sometimes because some of the things I've let him know about only we knew you might be giving him too much credit I mean not to be I don't mean that in like a mean way but it might be that the dude's got a lot of stimulus right now he's got some scheming going on he's got a lot of people he's talking with around a person name doesn't register therefore I'm not going to really listen to what they have to say I don't know what you communicated with them but I'm just thinking maybe that's maybe that's a legitimate possibility no no no because of how we ended up cutting communication you know and basically through like PTSD my brain actually locked all those memories away to the extent that I'd forgotten about I was going to meet up Sydney in early 2016 in Sydney trying to meet up a blockchain meet up stuff that looks interesting technology and then the Bitcoin logo come up and I think I remember something about that I can't quite remember right? this is nuts this is early 2016 but that's why the big book origins stories were written and how it was expanded and I sent the links off to Google so it would actually archive it the idea is so that in the future you'll ever see someone that shut down all these memories and then slowly had to come back this is how they came back it would be useful as an analysis time thing because to the extent that you would have seen the Bitcoin the orange Bitcoin logo which was BitBoy published it but it wasn't his design so as far as the whole world's concerned that's BitBoy's design and his logo and he's published it and published it he tested the instructions and published them but it wasn't his design so it wasn't based upon the 2010 design it was 2010 design version 2 February 2010 version 2 but if everyone can find BitBoy if he's got access to those emails I'll be very interested to see how I convinced him to do that as far as I'm concerned if it's just some random person talking to him I must have convinced him somehow who I actually was for him to do this and not say anything I may have contacted him via the GMX account if that's the case if someone could find out who he is contact him and that is how he's convinced well that's like verified my story quite substantially really at least I convinced him some other way who knows but so I was doing all these other jobs BitBoy in itself it's going to be a dark project so that's going to be different from anything else I was doing everything else was can I do this once they did that system doesn't work at all trying to find a type of system that would actually work in scale and all the rest but when it comes to this electronic cash problem that was different that wasn't partly how can you make money if you actually make your own tokens and they gain value obviously you made money you got rich quick schemes the idea is once you got the system working if you can scale it quickly you're rich quickly if you scale it slowly you're rich slowly and if you go slowly it's got time for a competitor to come in and take over and do it better or cheaper faster so whatever you want to do you want to scale quickly and this Bitcoin thing it was obviously it was not going to be a rich quick scheme at all it's got a lot of elements on it purely because the other elements that I've been studying for years and trying out in real life little attempts and stuff but it was never going to scale quickly but I've gotten in the Bitcoin origin story about how I started trying to help out Craig because Craig had been trying to make an electronic cash and it failed after I've studied it for about a month and a half I've learnt about cryptography and the systems and compared to his one it's never going to be solved without being if you used reliance upon at least one server it's not going to work if you distribute it against six servers it's not going to work it's got to be not reliant on any actual physical machine that's why prefer work prefer work is better than prefer steak and other systems because those other systems you already know those machines in advance prefer work you don't know which machine is going to roll the metric dice we've been through all those systems different ways that we've talked about in all these other attempts and each time it goes back well you know the machine in advance you can go and tap on the door and say right for the next six days whatever traces I'm going through I want this one to go through if it's just prefer work which is basically everyone rolling dice random dice again and again everyone you don't know which machine is going to get it you can't go up in advance and compromise them that's why prefer work is so much better than any of these other systems but um yeah so after it failed I thought well I was going to counter what other little things I was looking into I thought and I reminisced about why then I stopped doing the Win32 assembly stuff but I went back looking at the stuff I had done over the years, electronic stuff as well as the computer stuff and seeing I've been able to figure out some pretty difficult problems so maybe if you look in the history in the future say 50 years and there's a book there saying oh this wasn't meant to do this was created and these are the people that were involved and what I was doing is on the sidelines thinking are these the people that are going to create this thing are these the people and I was thinking about I think well what if that book actually had my name on it instead of waiting to see someone else why not I give it a go and that's why I decided in the first week of June to start the Prometheus project trying to figure it out because if you can figure it out not just for electronic cash but if you can figure it out that means if you can have electronic cash without trusting your third party you don't have to use the third party that means you don't have to trust them alright that means anywhere that you currently have to you're forced to trust someone else can be removed you still have to use the service the third party service you just don't have to trust them at the moment you have to trust the government or this person or the company doing that you still have to use them but you shouldn't have to trust any of them when you go and get a service what's my driver's license got to do with what you call company my driver's license got to with me being allowed to drive on the roads around here they shouldn't know all their details when you put it that way it looks I never thought about this but it looks like a systemic flaw in the way that human societies are structured that trust is something essential because in practice humans really aren't trustworthy that's kind of a design flaw of the system that you've solved yeah so that's why I'll put a few tweets about how the real the real social efficient is planetary civilization a type 1 planetary civilization where we use the planet itself we use the 100% of the energy coming to this planet from the sun we could put satellites up with the solar panels facing towards the sun and having the energy beam down and we could have tidal generators replacing the wall that have the highest tide the tidal generators there that can generate a lot of electricity those sort of things things that are less moving parts solar panels got less moving parts than wind farm wind turbine same with the tidal generator it's just the wall itself that's lifting it up and pushing it down and during that process the generators rotate and generate the electricity if we have electricity abundance every sky fight book you ever read if you've got energy abundance the society all over the planet is uplifted thinking about problems with their batteries at the moment the reason why we have awesome gizmos all over our bodies the entire time walking around the exoskeleton so we can actually run it 100 kilometers an hour is because of power if we have batteries that could give out enough current not enough wattage over time we wouldn't be using public transportation right we'd have our own jet packs exoskeletons to move and all types of other lovely things but power is very very important is that your next project well that's another reason why we've got pre for work what's the meaning you get religious but I always go by the thought of the fates of the universe right some things just happen but shouldn't happen but they do there's no such thing as coincidence but some things these things just fall into place especially with the environment with pre for work or we need to solve this we've got this pre for work solve the energy crisis kick starters in towards solving it it generates a lot of power although I told you this beforehand right and the idea is people comes into human motivation because that's these books, neural and acoustic programming and all these other things how to manipulate people for their benefit not for evil anything okay how to motivate people to fix the pollution system you've got a global warning about CO2 CO2 there's nothing compared to the actual pollution toxic waste just generate aluminium or aluminium electricity but there's also a lot of toxic waste sludge that comes out of that so wherever the smelters are they'll land around it is wrecked same with gold smelting arsenic or whatever it is so they've got great big pits quarries full of toxic waste that leaks down into the water basins and ruins other bits of the landscape so I think the pollution is actually worse than the CO2 global warming business so you've got to be able to recycle everything at some stage so anyway on the electricity side of it prefer work because of the way the economics of it works if the usability of the token goes up because people find it's useful all of a sudden so more people are buying a fixed amount of stuff supply demand means the price will go up because it's valued more and so all of a sudden the miners their reward is worth more so other people go I'll get some mining equipment myself either more PCs at the time or more whatever scale it is and all of a sudden there'll be more assets more hashing more energy used up so in other words you think you've solved it's not the next project that you're working on it's when you've already solved people are going to have to develop it's not solved it's motivation I'm talking about leveraging other people to work I can't do it myself leverage other people this is to leverage the entire human race to either fix the problem in our lifetime or we will all perish as one this is a human extinction level event right meaning you in your lifetime in the mean of my lifetime we're either going to see ourselves solve the energy issue of being able to generate as much energy as a bonus as possible or we're going to die because we're going to actually have brownouts and blackouts during winters and so people's he just won't work and they'll freeze to death during the summers they'll be so hot they won't work to cool them down they will pass out there will be mass deaths if they don't fix this yeah so proof of work is a huge issue it's meant to be a huge issue but this isn't something that you're going into thinking right this is like a derivative beliefs that come from seeing the implications of what you've discovered right no this is all 2008 we were going through different processes of proof of work or proof of stake or this system or this system and so which is a pros and cons and I keep coming back to the proof of work this is good because it solves this when it comes to more law the more powerful computers the targeting can be changed like this here and so that will work but also the electricity we saw the benefits back then it was actually not benefits to who will be affected but it's a possible benefit one of the greatest motivators that humans have got is fear of their own death right and so it's the boiling frog scenario if it's your grandkids that's going to have the problem you're not going to do anything about it in your own time you don't care come and think here they'll just do a little devil there and devil there if they their lives themselves are at risk in the motivated to do something they're bringing laws they'll they'll have the resources they have to go onto that system there or subsidize wind farms subsidize solar panels they'll have to do it they won't have a happy retirement two things I'm still partial to the idea of market solving it where the price of electricity goes up last thing I want is some government project to say here's a billion dollar boondog to build some solar farms I want to see the entrepreneurs take over that type brother did you get a chance to read that the David Friedman book David Friedman book machinery of freedom the one I sent you no no no no how many had a chance okay the other thing is so let me get the kind of big picture the human story in addition to the kind of conceptual level what's going on with the development of Bitcoin you've got a regular human who's got a normal job conceptually dabbling in a bunch of different things knows that he's been able to solve some pretty difficult problems investigates the issue of electronic cash for a month and a half because it's interesting besides that it can't really be solved but then thinks to himself well actually if we solve this Byzantine general's problem I mean maybe I could actually solve this and then straight away when thinking that maybe you could find if you could solve it you go straight from the problem of digital cash to planetary civilization and blackouts and like massive big picture positive belief that I may have just discovered something that could be as you say an extinction level event if the world doesn't change according to my invention based on the thing that I've created yeah is that an accurate story yeah basically more accurate than the old Satoshi myth at the moment right very different one of the things were like the Bond films the James Bond movies the Bond villains trying to take over the current world and that and one of the discussions I had with Craig was that what's wrong these people why are they trying to take over this world this world's crap all they're doing is replacing one crap top of government with another crap dictator what's the difference what would be more interesting if you were able to take over the world of tomorrow I haven't seen a James Bond movie yet so what say we were ever villains we take over the world so the idea is to take over the world take over the world in such a way that we transfer who's who's in power from the current group of people to everyone else think of a Bond villain with a Robin Hood complex but you're not stealing from the rich and giving to the poor they do work and they should have control over the substance of their work so instead of having tax is theft the idea is in society you should it's usually useful to pull your resources together a little bit so you can do something for society right that's how the banks and insurance companies are based upon you all put a little tiff if something goes wrong on your farm that insurance company will actually pay out so you're basically all helping whoever may have a problem and you can do that with roads as well and anything else the main problem is that if it's taken from you forcefully well the person that's taken from you forcefully is not inclined to spend it wisely on your behalf and from my perspective that's the main issue it's not that we pay taxes at all it's how it's done you just mentioned beforehand about how the current society is functioning is dysfunctional and with technology we can make it better than it could ever be before so I even mentioned this on Twitter yesterday about how your local road in your suburb no private company is ever going to pay for that so unless you had a taxation system you're pulling your resources locally so that a local council can put a contract out for a road maintenance company to actually go and fix the road and fix the potholes every now and then then your roads going to go to ruin it might be pulled up and be left as dirt and stone yeah but take an example like Disneyland right, Disneyland is this area it's huge private coverage, private ownership but yet they have roads that they use but internally yeah for their own benefit but a normal suburb what private company cares about the roads that's in the house in the suburb a normal road it's not like it was 100 years ago where everyone that worked at the railways lived in houses right beside walking through the railways and they just walked back and forth like that the railroads did not pay those roads nowadays people are living two hours away, two hour commute so why would a company two hours away pay for a little square meterage of your road to be paid it will never ever happen so I have one thing to say and then one thing I want to ask you this is an excellent setup so the thing to say is I don't think that companies who wouldn't benefit should be forced to pay for roads I think the people that are going to get the benefit will be able to either voluntarily pool their resources or they will be like other businesses want roads to be paid because I can drive to the store to buy their product so I think it could be done privately but that's why I ask about the David Friedman book because I think he talks about roads but I don't want that's kind of a political theory aside the thing that I want to ask you if you're going to believe hold hands hold hands in a circle and go la dee daa in a circle yes we'll all do it people do not act that way they are always acting I agree a company will never pave a road unless it benefits them directly yes but that's what the what the book covers it covers the profit profit motive for private individuals to voluntarily pool their resources in a way that benefits them in the most concrete even that phrase private individual pooling their resources voluntarily that phrase does not really make sense in the real world I know well take something like lighthouses even in a church get handed a bag put a few coins and a few dollars in their hearts because they're afraid of what happens if they didn't do that they're trying to pave their way into a heaven that's why they do that it's a theory about I completely agree with you on that point but it's a theory about good people go to churches, churches are not good right so it's a theory about public goods are there such things as public goods and there's a school of thinking which says that really there are no such things as public goods that if you really investigate the incentives at play if you have universal private property ownership like if people own parts of the ocean or they own rivers and they own streams you can actually have for purely self-interested reasons the protection of things that people normally think of as public goods like for example a common example is the lighthouse one of the text book arguments for the public good is well no individual is enough to finance the production of a lighthouse well you have sailors unions you have groups of individuals that say we're all going to benefit from having a lighthouse so we don't crash in the ocean or crash on land because that's expensive so we're just going to as a trade union pool our resources and buy a lighthouse so I think the same thing might be able to be done with roads and anything else if you're looking at central business districts or central finance districts maybe differently but I'm talking about suburbs where it's just residential housing so how would you respond to this then what if it's the case that the reason we have inefficient road placement and housing placement is precisely because the creation of roads was subsidized by government not for profit-driven reasons so in other words maybe it should be the case that cities should be laid out in a fashion such that where you get the residential buildings built is along the roads is close to the business system and like is profit-driven rather than oh hey I want to live out in the middle of the force somewhere government come along and pay for my road for me well it's sort of kind of like that you may find the main arterial roadways pave but I'm talking about the actual residential roads yourself you go from the 70k road into the 50k road it's just residential and also who's going to pave that no, no trucks are going to go around there either all the cul-de-sacs there's only residential there will never ever be trucks going down there it's just for movement trucks why not homeowners associations couldn't they do that I mean they pay for like garbage removal and those type of things couldn't you have a homeowners association that said hey this is the fun for road maintenance how is that going to be set up though I don't know set it up as you would so somebody's got a somebody owns a piece of land they're making a residential community and they specify in order to move here you have to agree to the homeowners association that has X percentage or X amount of money that gets pooled into the local subdivision road construction fund that sounds almost like strata management in an apartment complex is that one group say oh this is the common area and so you got to pay extra for the common area and that about that common area instead of the same bit of park lane the common area is now the roadway yeah yeah but it's but it's the thing is the difference between that and the government is that that would be privately funded that would be a contract I agree to and say okay yes I'll agree with those rules yes I agree with the homeowners association and it still gets created that's actually an interesting idea thanks it's not it might actually work thank you yeah yeah yeah but that might that actually might might work in the system I'm trying to work out at the moment I recommend when you get the time check out David Friedman Mr. Union of Freedom because everybody I mean it's everybody has the same story we've been taught about economics these these are normal intuitions but I think there's actually an interesting story that can be built about how we might actually be able to solve these without the and be able to keep the whole system voluntary which is why I think so many libertarians and like anarchists love Bitcoin so much just because it's private money it's got nothing to do with the state this one the issues is the libertarians anarchist other side you got socialist they're not sides though it's a scale and I always thought that you can take an element of socialism element of another end and somewhere in between can take elements of both and make them work right this this is most of those is a libertarian and no I don't want to pay any taxes totally socialist means we've got to take everyone's but larger check chunk of people's resources using force yes there is a halfway mark where you can actually have a bit of both pay taxes but it's libertarian which means you control your taxes that's what's this due to this sphere thing I'm working on at the moment that was I'd worked on in like 2009-2010 and Craig refused to put it in that's why I decided right I'm going to leave took me six months to actually leave right but yeah the main reason is because the whole point is to have a geodesic sphere so divide the whole planet into rectangles so that when we move the Mars we use the same structure geodesic sphere over Mars have it over the moon over Titan right same at the moment countries are divided by this river and this mountain range well those mountain ranges and rivers don't exist on Mars or moon which is a stupid way of dividing up ownership territory right so the idea is to divide it up but I want to respond to what you said about the spectrum of the political theory spectrum I completely agree with you there's a very popular juvenile petty anarchism which is like I'm just going to do my own thing and there's no understanding of context or relations and how societies work or anything like that you live in a society so you do actually have to bend a little bit to sort of it's almost like a metaphysical thing like if it's the case you're living in society there is a particular relation between you and the other people in the society but there's another more radical type of anarchism which is 100% based in self-interest capitalism anarcho-capitalism is the title of it but I remember last time we were talking you were saying you see the list of the seven deadly sins is like a template for how people actually act in the world it's 100% based on that and the thing is like public goods problems is now instead of this is something we need government to do which you're going to have concrete problems and how do you structure the government can you opt out what if they're incompetent how do you vote them out how do you keep the incentives right in government this is like okay well let's just what if we take the government off the table and we say these are all entrepreneurial problems how can individual businessmen operating under a profit incentive actually give us things like public goods and I think they build a pretty plausible story what about Defensive State that's in the David Friedman book as is the private production of law there's a book also by Robert Murphy called chaos theory where he talks about the private production of legal systems and gives a very again a very plausible story for both criminal law and for contract law I'm going to have to hunt down that link again cool because I'm on the windows to be seen now so get away from the Mac I'm going to try and find it I'll Skype it too I'll Skype both of those things to you just because I think you've got a functioning imagination that's like how could this work how could this work and a little bit of a plausible exposure I feel like you're going to go okay maybe you could do this but will the jurors just explain the basics of how divide everything up what's worked out but some parts it was still not figured out and still are but the basis of say some of these things can be seen to be devised by privately and other companies as well but you still need a government as a service layer so the other ones are senior contracts so many cases it's different from each country but we've got over here like Medicare so one or two percent of your income goes towards paying for a basic medical care for everyone you don't have to worry about saying I'll still cost me $10 going to the doctor you just go and see the doctor but here's the problem with that though and that kind of system when you have a certain fixed percentage that's taken you don't have the right incentives so it's like all through every layer so the idea of the jurors is that you can test all the triangles down to even the size of the house as you want and so when you make a transaction and you're paying say 1% tax or 1% tax you can decide which territory will be allowed to spend that tax usually it's in your area that you live in but you might decide okay a place in Kenya needs to build a dam and on social media you get a whole bunch of people right for the next week any of our taxes from our transactional tax will go towards the unnecessary step though isn't it I mean so it seems like to me that's an unnecessary step if we can already have things like the private financing of building dams in Kenya online which you can do why would you say we're going to have another system where you can choose to have your money given to bureaucrats by middlemen that seems like an unnecessary middleman step well part of it is a transition there's another thing of this current system there's something new and we're just going to go squash it's a transition this current system into the new system it's not anarchy saying down with government is how can we transform government into this new system this might be one way around it but if there's a way to do it and skipping this step to make the transition faster that would be more preferable okay so last thing on that I love these conversations are so hard to resist you gotta remember that that our our dissentance in 200 years time 200 years time 500 years time they already exist right now so they already know what we've done in our time we don't so anything we do and decide is a win-flux it's like the old Terminator movies the future has not been made yet but for our dissentance their history has been fixed what we're about to do is fix history in their time so we can be very fixable of what we're about to do we don't know if it's going to work or not our dissentance no so I think when you say the anarchist the petty anarchist of which there are many is down with government I think the the more correct perspective is to say let's privatize governance or let's deminopelize governance let's still get some of those essential services but let's bring them into the profit and loss sphere yeah but you gotta do it a specific way like in New Zealand we have things called Estates Enterprises which is basically governments and private companies coming together to put on say electricity or telecommunications or whatever you have it over here Australia with it comes to say building motorways the government will come and put in some taxpayer money and then you've got private companies putting their investments in to build a motorway same type of thing you can't just privatize it the incentives are going to be geared up to the private companies are going to be they're going to be arseholes and they've got to do so so that it benefits us most likely there's private companies coming involved and all of a sudden we were promised cheaper electricity prices now it's actually more expensive okay so when I talk to people about political theory on this and about the question of transition this is an area I don't know concretely here's what I would say there is a theory about how all goods could be created in the private marketplace you could say voluntarily or by entrepreneurs or within the profit and loss system roads included I think that is true from what I can tell where we currently are is way far away from that theory and I don't know what the middle looks like because like for example I think probably the hardest question is like what do you do with nuclear weapons if you don't have governments you have private ownership of nuclear weapons how the heck does that work I'm not sure that the solution is well we have nuclear weapons and let's let the government have them there's a bunch of sociopaths we have a bunch of bad incentives but I'm not sure what the correct the pure anarchist position is but I think it's important to say with that transition period how we go from here to there is to identify exactly where there is because if we're trying to transition to a like a small government state or a voluntary like voluntary taxes type system I think that looks like a different transition versus if we're going to the whole pure like fully market based system so I don't have a good answer though how we go like even if we were to say the ideal is to have everything in the market okay but you have the public ownership of roads you have the public ownership of nuclear weapons how do you begin to privatize those things I don't know yeah yeah yeah I don't think anyone's got the proper correct answer at the moment this is one of the things I've told two people arguing they should have helium so if everyone got to argue you take a bit of helium they have the old squeaky voice how long can they argue for right it makes whatever they argue about not so serious after all alright so before you go and go and nuke someone it could be a rule each side take some helium and then discuss whether you should nuke someone but who enforces the rules though that's just it though the idea is to take it away from humans that's the whole basis of th