awesome we're live. So we are on Dr. Hathi it is so good my friend to see you. It's so great to be with you Jill. Yeah and I just love because we get to talking over a dinner and I have them with friends or wherever we're at and it's just like boom boom boom you know like the energy and the ideas they flow so I actually chose specifically you're one of my favorite people for that so that's why you're here. I want to introduce you and I've got your bio here I actually I won't read it all but I want people to know just a little bit about you so hopefully I pick the highlights and then we'll just dive right in. So Dr. Hathi is a doctor, teacher, entrepreneur, innovator and you'll see just from today some of his ideas on what he's doing. I'm so excited to talk about this because he is on the cutting edge. He's deeply committed to maximizing wellness for everyone. He received his medical training at Vanderbilt and completed his residency in family medicine just like me in Rochester Minnesota. He's board certified in family and integrated holistic medicine. He realized something important was missing early in his clinical practice and he really how to put it in a nutshell he's been a real detective in discovering root cause of illness but what I love about him is he's always he's such a great businessman and entrepreneur so he not only takes the ideas of seeing patients in clinic and functional medicine but he really is going to the next level on creating systems and programs to reverse disease and we are going to dive into that today so welcome David to the call today. I love stories so what I'd love to start with is just a little bit about how did you get interested in medicine like you were where did you grow up first of all where were you born? Yeah well I grew up I'm a dairy farm boy from South Dakota and so I grew up on a dairy farm and unfortunately or fortunately I was plagued with many small illnesses as a child so I visited my local family doctor who is this amazing Filipino general surgeon who took care of our town of 850 people and we had a hospital in the town and so I got several thing issues I had mono that I got to be hospitalized for and during that time he gave me a little lecture on immunology and he would come he teach me and then he quiz me the next day these were the areas where they put you in the hospital for a for a while and and he said you should be a doctor and I was like okay and then he invited me to come and actually assist him in surgery so here I was a high school junior with my hands inside another person assisting with you know colostectomies and I was like this is pretty cool and I also knew that medicine was maybe the one thing I could do the rest of my life and not get bored so yeah and I was right that is so cool oh my god and then yeah from there so so you kind of knew what age was that that you kind of thought you were going to go into medicine uh really it was in high school yeah mom mom said it was younger than that but I don't really have any recall of that uh and then uh yeah so this was I I kind of was a covert pre-med during college yeah I didn't want anybody know I was pre-med because I wasn't I wasn't that nerdy and so I kind of did that some sly and and then uh but you know really have loved it I love the practice of medicine I mean it is it is always an opportunity to be humbled and an opportunity to be challenged so I couldn't agree more I love I grew up in a farm too as corn and soybeans and there's something about that just like I I always think of like this nourishment of the earth and like for me there was also toxicity with the environmental chemicals and things this dichotomy and also like you know that learning to thrive and grow in the work ethic and there's something really special about us farm kids where was that Jill uh central Illinois I was right Illinois yeah so did you not know that it was a farm girl too yeah I know no this but so this is interesting because I think functional medicine is totally an agricultural model of healthcare and so allopathic medicine is really more of a militaristic model so you know we look at a disease as something to go hunt and kill in in allopathic medicine but in functional medicine we know that it the creation of health the growth the nurturing of our health health has to be grown it can't be forced and that's why you know the doctor patient relationship has to be sacred because it's the patient that really does all the important work and and if you don't enable that to occur and I think that's I think it is part of the mindset uh that we just grew up seeing things grow on a regular basis and there is a time for planting there's a time for cultivating there a time for waiting a time for harvesting and then a time to rest and and and that cyclicity of of life uh just I think resonates with what reality is and when we operate outside of those expectations of of life and the kind of the rules of biology the rules of reality uh that's where we get into trouble so I love that analogy you know I I haven't thought of it that way but that makes so much sense and what I always think about now my family is still farming in Central Illinois it's more like an agribusiness because it's grown and I am one of five I have three brothers one is an engineer and the other two are farming but what's interesting to me is my oldest brother has a very good business mind and very good detective and he has gone into soils and soil ecology and he's like a functional medicine like phd of the soil and I love it because we get together and have these conversations and what we realize I know you understand this better than probably anybody the soil is a mirror of our gut ecosystem and if the soil so a lot of what we see in functional medicine we see as a mirror of the disequilibrium of our soils and the overgrowth of crops and over circulation without adding nutrients back in it's so parallel and literally Jeff is a farmer he has nothing to do with medicine I'm a medical doctor have nothing to do with farming and yet we can have these conversations about calcium ph in this and ph in the soil or about magnesium in the body and it's so parallel and it's so interesting to me because the health of the soils and I know when I had cancer at 25 my family started to listen and learn how in the world could Jill have had cancer at 25 and then my sister David got cancer at 28 so all of a sudden there's two girls in this family system that grew up in the same environment clearly genetics had a role but clearly environment had a role right and then my mother had Hashimoto so there was this whole thing that my family started to pay attention and now they are some of the only farmers in Illinois that not only are 100% non-gmo crops with corn and soy which is kind of unheard of that's really hard to do it is and I mean this is like 10 plus thousand acres this is not a small business and the second thing they're doing is a lot of organic plots as well and again this is kind of cutting edge for central Illinois farming so I'm really proud of them for that because that is going to reflect on the health of our nation as farmers do that it's one system I mean we can't we can't live with the hallucination that somehow we are outside of the entire living system that is our environment we're part of it right and I think I think that's just that is just something that you and I understand deeper than what we could articulate right it comes natural right like the understanding so you know I love brain you know I love brains yes I'm always always thinking about brain and you know that the our connectome is the all of the some connections in the brain and we've done been doing quantitative EEG analysis for like 12 years and we do a lot of volumetric MRI studies to try to figure out what is the you know how is that particular brain not functioning at optimal and and when we think of the connectome it is that it's a wiring process when we're really little you know the very first steps we take are just all kinds of sprouting going on all those the first things we see so the things that happen very young give us the foundation upon which we build the next layer and then that builds the next layer and that's why early childhood education is so important you know all that stuff but but are the way we saw the world and the way all of our patients see the world it's so interesting to go back and so I like the functional medicine timeline you know you go back and sometimes how somebody views the world is actually the most important part of their then health care right yeah so how do you I mean that's I love that perspective when you're in front of a patient how do you gather like what's your question for how do you view the world because that's a really good place to start is there any particular way that you start to get information from them about the view of the world or do you just listen what's your what's your secret there yeah you know I guess it's my gut I mean I first start with you know what is your health for you know why do you why do you want to work together because I'm not easy to work with we're going to do a lot of stuff you know I work you know but anyway the uh so what is your health for and then just in listening it starts to open up the opportunities to ask questions you know my first question is not like what is your relationship to your mother that would be a little creepy but but that that one may come right and you can learn a lot about somebody by their relationship with their mother because that is the so that is really bedrock when you think of the so the layering of our brain and how we view the world etc so that's my screening question for who I'll date you know like what's your relationship with your mother because of a lot about how they're going to treat the woman in my life right yeah a lot a lot oh exactly um one question before we go to all the stuff you're doing with brain health I want to talk about that but we talked about terrain and the soil and how this analogy with farming and that what do you think I would love your thoughts about the terrain of our environment and this pandemic that we're experiencing because it's relevant right like how did this happen to us and what soil did we have that made it happen in this type of extreme I would love to talk about your thoughts around that because I think there's a lot of things that set us up for this worldwide oh man there's so many things when you take when you take an ecological perspective of how this emerged and where we went from here it's massive I mean just starting from where this virus probably mutated out of was this really adverse environment of all kinds of animals in very close quarters in high frequency with humans you just had so many opportunities for cross species to jump and that is as fundamentally where this came from fundamentally it was our relationship with our food being dysfunctional that started this process and I say we is in China world right yeah that the virus didn't sprout here but then I find it really fascinating that this is showing for so many interesting parts of what we've always talked about in functional medicine right and I wrote this in an early blog I think like in March third or so and that that it's the people with inflammation and oxidative stress and if we started looking at our the viral population with those two markers I mean a high ferritin is amazingly predictive of the predilection towards cytokine storm right we have been measuring ferritin forever not just a measure iron but we know that that's an acute phase reactants and it's like wow if that's high you know and even if you just have high iron that's a problem because that's going to feed forward oxidative stress but it's those are not measuring the virus it's not measuring the immune system it is measuring a marker of how the system itself is functioning and I think that's that's the huge part here is that we're being invited to ask questions about the system and if we if we take that invitation there's a lot of growth that's going to happen as a result of this if we don't take that invitation guess what we're going to have another opportunity to be invited absolutely and I love I don't know where I heard this this is an original but it just I grabbed a hold of it and it made sense to me hundreds of years ago we talked and even the last decade we talked about germ theory and like and clearly I mean this is valid infections of people that even know that washing their hands protected them from these surgeons who were like you know had taken corpses and then going to do surgery and pass an infection so this is clearly valid but we need to now move from pure germ theory to the theory of terrain because terrain is all about why are some people having a resilient immune system being around I heard the story of a close friend who had a friend who was on the cruise ship and it was a husband and wife and their parents for their 50th anniversary the father died the mother got very sick the husband got didn't get sick at all and the wife got sick and recovered so there was these four people same family same room from all ends of the spectrum from death to no experience so to me this going from germ theory and purely thinking about protecting ourselves with a mask and don't go outside well there's two sides of that story right because when we don't go outside and don't touch dirt and don't breathe fresh air our immunity is actually inhibited because by touching dirt and touching things and kind of our system interacting with the germs in the environment that's how it's trained now I'm not saying we shouldn't follow precautions at all I'm not that person but what I'm saying is there's other sides of this and social social isolation creates its own set of trauma and its own set of immune dysfunction there's a balance here and the real issue in functionalism which is what we do every day David is the terrain which is is there an infectious burden is there a toxic load is there inflammation because that is going to determine if you get if you get exposed to the virus there are some people that will not get ill and we know that there's some people who will die so what's the different and that it's not the germ right it's the terrain not the germ and I love talking about that because that's functional medicine of the core it's what we do absolutely absolutely and you know and it's so interesting there is no there's no relevant answer that that allopathic medicine gives for that right when if you're limited so the germ theory is absolutely correct 100 correct and there's more so wait there's more wait there's more no totally and I love thinking about that because that's what we deal with every day to me as I do I do a ton of stuff with environmental toxicity and what I see is the load that we're experiencing even compared to 20 years ago when I started functional medicine we'd have someone come in with menopause symptoms or hypothyroid or Hashimoto's or simple straightforward things that got better nowadays I never I should say never I rarely see something that straightforward it's layer up on layer up on layer and the breaking of the system is under the load and to me with what I see and teach a big part of that is our environmental toxic load the air we breathe the food that we eat the water that we drink the stress that we live these are all burdensome and becoming more so every day so that they break the system internally in our ability to fight infection okay you hold that thought because I'm gonna I have something very interesting to tie into that start talking about we need to talk about dementia and kind of what I'm doing and that because what you're so right into that because that's what I want to really focus on is not tell me what you're doing with dementia let's like you dive right I really want to hear about that okay well so let me just say right off the bat we're literally doing plasma cleanses to to reverse Alzheimer's so I mean this is just bizarre I mean honestly you sit back and you're like what the heck is that about and but no it's something called therapeutic plasma exchange and this is where you have two large IVs put in the arm blood is pulled out of one arm goes in gets mixed with an anticoagulant it goes into a big centrifuge that's continuously running it pulls off the solid cells and it pulls off the plasma the plasma the liquid part of blood is then discarded and those solid cells or the cells are then mixed with a replacement fluid and we typically use albumin or more immunoglobulins and then that's returned to the body and so what's happens and this goes on continuously until we exchange you know like one to one point five times that person's entire plasma volume so for a guy my size we'll we'll run you know eight nine liters of my blood through the machine in a single setting and it's so it's a total plasma exchange I'm a certified aphorist specialist so this is this is not something you can commonly find so it's mostly done in hospitals but this is a seemingly safe process so but anyway um but the whole idea so I want I wanted to jump in what we are doing because of what you just said because you said hey it's so environmental like all the stuff is environmental well what is the plasma and this is this is going to blow your mind Jill it's going to hear it first here I'm not going to start talking about this this is one of the first times I know talking about it uh I've been thinking about this what is the plasma the plasma is the interface between your outside world and your inside world the plasma is the interface where everything that comes into your gut all the all the microbiome activities all all that stuff right that that it's transmitted through the plasma to the brain how about what the things you breathe you're talking about what you breathe in guess what you have to go through the plasma to get to the brain how about what you put on your skin you have to go through the plasma to get to the brain and and so as you know this entire idea we we have so much interest in toxicity in functional medicine because we know it it just impairs the body system ability to function well this is literally an oil change I mean we're pulling out the old plasma and putting in fresh and there's a tremendous amount of science on this but uh anyway it's it's it's it's fascinating let me tell you about the the major study that supports what I'm doing so it's a major study called AMBAR trial and one of the reasons you may not have heard about it yet is because it hasn't been published the results have been done for over a year the results have been presented at three major international meetings on apheresis and it was sponsored by a drug company called Griffels and they actually make Albumin and IgG they're a major pharmaceutical company that takes plasma that people donate and then they in that group plasma they all get separated into his component parts and they make bottles of Albumin usually used in the ICU anyway so they they said hey you know this makes sense they recognize that Albumin Albumin in the body is one of our major antioxidants it is actually the major antioxidant in our blood we talk about glutathione we talk about uric acid we talk about no it's it's Albumin has the most antioxidant potential of the entire it's in their bloodstream and so Albumin can get oxidized reversibly or irreversibly if it's irreversible that's done right it's no longer available to be used and so there's a difference between the Albumin the Albumin that's actually poisoned and irreversibly denatured as a result of toxic intermediation and it's much higher it's higher in individuals who have dementia than people who are normal and they went hey would that be basically like a sponge or like a neutralizing agent is that what you're thinking when you talk about Albumin for the layperson could they consider it like this neutralizing agent or just a sponge to stop up toxins or is it not quite yes absolutely I think a sponge is is relevant I would also kind of think it more like a Swiffer right yeah little Swiffer pads things will stick on and move on but every once in a while you get something on a Swiffer and it's never going away it's not going to work again got it okay and and so yeah so they did the study and but then they found looked at the Albumin because Albumin's in our CSF or cerebral spinal fluid which is actually the you know the the fluid that bays the brain and which which has this carefully guarded interface with the bloodstream and the Albumin the Albumin in the CSF of people with dementia is insanely denatured is super oxidized like like about 40 fold what it is in a an individual without dementia at that same age right so oh my gosh this Albumin is the problem let's remove the Albumin and put in fresh Albumin interesting thought so they did the study and about 490 participants multi so multinational multi-center many academic institutions involved double-blind randomized placebo controlled trial doing a plasmid doing plasma exchanges and there was a total of 18 plasma exchanges done over 14 months and then these and they track them both mild and moderate Alzheimer's disease well the individuals with moderate Alzheimer's disease so guess what happened over 14 months what kind of a trajectory change happened when they got these 18 plasma exchanges compared to placebo remember there's a placebo control trial so we we have an idea of where how what change do you think happened gosh um maybe 20 improvement would 20 be good yeah 20 be great in in the world of Alzheimer's right okay 61 decrease in the rate of progression wow 61 decrease and i have these in presentations i do um anyway so but but in mild Alzheimer's what do you think happened in mild Alzheimer's these people got even better they got better they improved improved over 14 months they improved now that's insane right now it wasn't really powered to give all of the insight that we wanted to do in mild Alzheimer's disease in the group model it was absolutely clear so highly statistically significant not only that they did a csf measurements of the amount of phosphorylated tau and amylate beta 42 in the csf and this process stabilized stabilized the the abnormal relationship of these damaged molecules uh in the uh in the fluid that was around the brain okay so now it's like oh we're not just symptoms but uh objective data so you have you know that's important and but there's more but there's more is that the um they actually also did um pet fdg scans which measure how much energy how much glucose is being consumed by the brain and uh what happened is that stabilized as well so compared to placebo the individuals that had the plasma exchange done had less decline in the metabolic activity of the brain meaning less death of brain cells wow wow so you said this poster's presented and what happened with the publishing that's about that that's the right idea right so so the unfortunately now this is this is just a hypothesis i don't know why they haven't published yet and i am so thankful for griffels for doing this this is the largest apheresis study that has ever been done in the world more procedures this is a huge investment i have worlds of respect for griffels as a company okay so please tell me let me just say that off the bat they they went where other people weren't willing to go and they put their money where their mouth was so hats off but i think the reason they haven't published is because this was a generic so albumin and immunoglobulins and they're kind of generic products and one's not so different from another supply of one supplier to the next and so they're making currently and possibly an improved version of of a plasma derivative so when you get the plasma comes in it's going to be but it will be a separate drug then that will have its own indication for Alzheimer's whereas other albumin will not so but listen i'm a certified apheresis specialist i am uh we're i think it's unethical that we're not doing this at this present time i think there's enough data i think the the risk benefit ratio uh especially if there's peripheral access uh for an individual that clearly has Alzheimer's disease or just going down that pathway um Alzheimer's is a terminal diagnosis we we see it happening right and and so we're using what is a uh an fda uh i'm using a fda certified machine all fda certified and approved medications but just for an off label purpose so there can be no promises made about what actually occurs because we don't have a classic indication yet so this has to be very plain with the people that come in but and again it's it's how do you see a benefit from this now i have seen some cool things happen with apheresis but it has to do with blood viscosity and things like that but anyway oh no this is so fascinating dr hassey because and i'm curious like for uh what kind of uh i'm sure right now this is probably not typically covered by insurance which is so okay because the cutting edge things that we do are worth that in spades to reverse Alzheimer's right and hopefully what you're doing is going to lead the way for the kinds of things that someday make it covered you know so i love that absolutely no no no question and but there's a lot of hurdles that have to be overcome this is an expensive procedure it takes a dedicated personnel a lot of machinery a lot of i mean it's it's anyway it is imagine this is not this is not something that you're going to see pop up in a lot of places quickly and it needs to so i'm actually what you're doing is like i love this i love that you're sharing this and i love that you're putting yourself out there to really make the difference in these people's lives and to do the work because a lot of doctors will be too afraid to be the one on the cutting edge because you are you're changing medicine like you really are and i love that what would like a typical patient uh how many times would it take for them to uh how many times would they need to get um treated until they want their brain to start degenerating again okay so it's kind of an ongoing for those this is ongoing and so there is and that's the challenge so now let me tell you the griffel study didn't do anything of what we do in functional medicine right right let me go back let me go back to what i said initially right that the plasma is the great interface right and so we know you and i have both at many cases of patients that come in with a diagnosis of dementia and we search for the multiplicity of clues i've actually created a software database called Maxwell brain that we're going to be making available to physicians soon uh that that takes in all the data takes in historical data and laboratory data genetic data and things like that and helps make a a plan and um and we're working with laboratory companies to actually make this no cost to patients no cost to doctors so that and and i needed this platform for my studies in plasma exchange because frankly i need a whole bunch of people out there using the platform to get some benefit because i think that that needs to be our new standard of care right that needs to be our new standard of care and then we can have something to actually uh do clear efficacy comparisons on because this is it's again it's expensive it's time consuming it's just it needs to become more accessible but there's a whole lot of hurdles that have to come and anyway but but you got to start somewhere right you have to start and then and then once you start then i love that you're collecting data too because that's really how we're going to move functional medicine and what you're doing forward and i've got a million questions as you can imagine like right now like this is so fascinating so i'm real familiar with ivig i have a lot of patients who get it because of these complex how would this compare it sounds like a step above because a lot of the treatment still includes the iig in the plasma exchange but what would be the difference between what you're doing and a typical i gg treatment well so i gg is you're putting something in right and and we should do another whole call we'll talk about plasma in more depth because i there's so much more to actually talk about here because but but i gg you're putting in immunoglobulins and these plasma exchanges they're actually removing them you're removing all the plasma and and so what are the typical indications for ivig they're severe autoimmune disease right that's where i've gone with this totally guess guess what guess what is the defined standard for the treatment that is utilized when all else fails in autoimmune disease it's plasma exchange exactly plasma exchange so this is this is the this is the mac daddy of therapies for autoimmune disease so you want to stop something short well let's remove the antibodies and that works because ivig we think that that's actually binding a lot of the excess antibodies and decreasing decreasing the propensity but and and actually the cost is similar so the cost is similar but the pros the the availability of somebody who is able to do this and has the equipment to do this is it's harder to find than somebody to give ivig finding somebody to give ivig is tough too right so yeah now do i again i whirl for me with ivig and there's significant side effects with people a lot of that the volume changes and those types of shifts can really cause symptoms and usually they get better in rate dependent and all that is it similar with you as far as the side effects they're watching people or is it a lot a lot more easy for people to tolerate and so i've given a fair bit of ivig as well in my 20 plus career in functional medicine as well so we're i just love it's just so much fun i love it because we just go right there and you know there's so many basics that should happen before a lot of things that we're talking about right we're a little formal yeah i know i know we just gotta we gotta make sure people recognize that though because you know you can get so much done with the fundamentals and those are what you should focus on and do first but but ivig causes a lot of histamine type reactions right there's a lot of immune activation there's and you had the volume issues i mean in plasma exchange as well there's a condition called taco you know transfusion associated cardiac overload we don't see that because we we have a machine it's basically measuring what comes in and out of the body down to about a 10 cc level so we we can very tightly control all the fluid volumes coming in and out we have a we have a protocol for preparation for doing plasma exchange that deals with a lot of the excess histamine issues so we knock on wood we just like don't have a histamine reaction yet so that and that's really abnormal i need to publish that as well because the because when you're pulling things in and out of the blood and you're adding in um citrate and a lot of these other things you're just you're just stirring the system up and and if your mastocytes are twitchy then they're going to be angry and and that you need to calm them down before you start this process and the nice thing what we're doing is it's totally elective it's totally outpatient we can schedule these things months ahead get people studied and and jill with the other things i'm really excited about i've been doing a lot of transcriptomic analysis and so i actually have before and after transcriptome analysis to take a look at what are the effects of the expression pattern of dna of the various white blood cells and how is that how is that manifesting in the process and yeah anyways it's i'm going to be presenting some of that fine we have to do another call now because this is like i'm like if that's what's going to take is someone like you who's collecting the data well you have to i mean it's one thing to have we have really good evidence that this is a reasonable thing to do i mean in a field where nothing freaking works right for in the conventional world there's you know we do and but we're treating the plasma right when we're optimizing hormones and we're detoxing and we're working with the nutrition and we're changing the the ketones and i mean that's working with the plasma literally yeah and so but i think if we add these to we can get so much more bang for the buck i think we can have fewer treatments fewer plasma exchanges i think we can get you know i i have a lot of hope for that it's still early i mean i don't want to make any claims i think the people who engage in this process early my patients are just you know incredible contributors to the world because we we got to learn it first somewhere and and the major academic centers are not going to go here in the way that we know they need to go there we need to be just need to be so careful and we need to be be a humble in this process and make sure that we're loving people as we go through this this endeavor so oh i love that um so this is just going out in a limb and uh we maybe don't have the answer but i could see this being not just for your patients who are you know terminal diagnosis but i'm assuming someone who wants to be optimal performance who's young and healthy this might be really beneficial too because that's where my world is like where are we biohacking optimal performance again this there's no studies on this i know but i'm assuming this would help anyone who has a toxic load or who wants better performance potentially you know i think that's a really good hypothesis right now i mean it really is it's all about risk benefit like what is what is the potential risk and like i said in a standard plasma exchange we go through an extensive informed consent process people have to actually take a test before i will i will see them because because we have to be realistic about these things but i do think we're going there jill i do think we're going there and i pan or pan does which is the young people with the severe autoimmune cephalopathy is those i could again see we don't know i know there's no evidence yet but i could see this potentially being studied in those kinds of patients no and and and we have people seek us out and ask those questions and and it is a um we're if if people are engaged and and are open to us gathering the data necessary to track is this a benefit or is this not a benefit and and again have very clear informed consent i think that that's a very reasonable path to go down so then uh do you have just a couple more minutes i'll try to wind us down here but this is so great i want to ask you because the people are going to be asking you know you're there doing this is amazing the work you're doing it is hopefully you'll get a noble prize for this someday i mean this is the kind of stuff that we need um are you training other physicians yet are you just setting up the data so that we could where we at with starting to maybe get other physicians doing this is that possible yeah no i i we're not there yet and and because the process is well COVID through a whole big monkey wrench in this whole process like most everything because the people who have dementia are going like i need to stay at home right now what people are finding out the people with dementia uh are everybody that's close to them is going like you need help so i think we're going to have an explosion of people seeking interest on this and like i said i've been i've just been very quiet you know jill like i said this is my first facebook live i've ever done you know i i'm really not out there about telling the story i want to figure it out and so i once the story gets out i think we're going to have a lot more interest in i think there's going to be and and i'd love teaching you know that's my real favorite thing to do and so absolutely we'll be teaching doctors how to do this and how to how to get that up and running in their own areas but apheresis is not something you know it is it's not something you you can't take a weekend course on this and get something right this is not that kind of a thing right and if anyone is doing it and able to do it right i just i kudos to you for being the pioneer out there um i am i know you've got a million things you could be doing instead of talking to me but i'm really delighted and honored that you took the time and i want to let people know just if they want to know more about your clinic want to know more about what you're doing where can they find you tell us about how to find dr. hasi sure well it's just david hasi md on facebook or david hasi md that's uh on i have a website david hasi md.com and you can find more information there not as much as you need to find i'm certain but you can ask for more information and we'll start getting it up more like i said this is really the first time i'm talking publicly about this and i'll be on davasbury on bulletproof radio pretty soon talking about this as well and so anyway the and that's that's one of the best by my clinic in nashville is maxwell clinic and it's for maximizing wellness and we've been we're kind of proud to be one of the longest running functional medicine clinics and certainly in the southeast and yeah it's it's it's it's a privilege to get to do what we do we just need a whole lot more doctors doing it as little farm kids who knew you know what we're capable of well we're growing health yeah we're we're literally still back on the farm jill yeah well i am honored to have you yeah yeah i'm honored to have you i'm grateful for your time i will be sure and share with our colleagues and um and let me know how i can continue to support you because i'm one of your biggest fans thank you joe yeah and you know and thank you for the work you do such a at a you do such a great job of communicating what we're doing and attempting in such a high integrity fashion you know when there's when there's a lot of people out there doing functional marketing instead of functional medicine right you know you know the people who are making clickbait blogs and you know making ridiculous claims and there's a lot of bs you really you really stand above everything you put out i am i'm thankful for your your standards oh that means so much i really really appreciate it well you enjoy your weekend and thanks for spending time with us here and i'm sure we'll connect soon all right okay take care


So on the side of your sheet there, you'll see all the children's names in the class, and next to their name, you'll see that's the favorite animal that they picked. I need someone to tell me. I have that information and that's really great, but what could I maybe do with that information to organize it better and to make it easier for me to read? What could I do with that information? Mariah, what do you think? You could put it in the box and you could make it into tallies. Okay, you could put it into your tally chart. Would that help? Okay, so what I'd like you to do first is I'd like you to, with your same partner or the people that you were working with before, I'd like you to go ahead and put tallies for all of the animals. So you're going to look at dogs and see how many chose dogs, and then go ahead and put your tally marks on your paper. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, all right, seven, nine. It might be helpful to cross out as you're going along so you don't burn. Okay, one, two, three, three, three cuts. So one, two, three. So now let's see, let's count all the fishes. One, two, all right, it looks like there's only two fishes so we just put on two fishes. Now we've got to count the burns. One, two, three, four, five, five, one, two, three, four, five. Okay. Okay, take about another minute to finish up with your tallies.


Firstly, the great joy of being here with you all. And I think that if I can add anything today, let me try and add something to the journey that you're embarking on here. Somebody asked me last night when I got hijacked if I still do anything in the arts. And my answer was I've rediscovered music 20 years after being told I was 80% deaf and my career went like that at that time. I now have a state of the art hearing aid. So here it is. O dolce bar di cio, l'angüe de carreze. That's what I used to do. No. But that was a long time ago and that was at the Metropolitan Opera Company and I frankly spent a lot more time enjoying going down the road after the show to work at the Village of Angart and play jazz, which was my first love. So my going back to passion and music now is about jazz. That my narrative in terms of the last 20-some years has been very privileged in terms of my social entrepreneurship, I guess, is what most people seem to think I am. And it's taken me from the barricades of the front line of that in terms of work with Greenpeace for a number of years and then I started realizing that the game was a bit more complex than just the barricades. And I started working in both the business community and in various forms of government. I spent a long time negotiating. Situations around the planet. And then finally I thought, well, I need to retire. I'm getting too old. So the board at the time of the organization that I was the chief executive of, I said to them, you don't need me anymore. You're doing great work yourselves. I'm out of here. And they said, well, leave us with an idea. And I thought, I'll come up with the silliest idea I possibly can to make sure this is an exit strategy out of the building. So the next day I came back and I said, how about we create to honor our most famous global citizen an international prize, an international awards program in global leadership? And they sort of looked stunned at me and said, great. I said, okay, I'm out of here. And I went and the phone rang that night and the chairman said, we want you to come back tomorrow. And I said, no, no, no, I've got enough corporate watchers. I don't need to come back. He said, no, no, no, we want you back. And so I came back and they looked at me as a board again and they said, you're not out of business. We are, we've dissolved the board. You're right. We as individual companies are doing interesting work. We don't need you. Here's $100,000 do it. So I was suddenly hoisted on this idea, which I had quite frankly come up with as an exit strategy. And I guess the life lesson from this is for those of you who are very keen on planning that in my view, if you make a serious enough plan, the gods are almost certain to laugh at you. And so I've learned to perhaps listen a bit more to the resonance around us, rather than trying to play the game by the rules that you think you should be playing. So that led me on a rather wonderful journey, which I quickly then had to take seriously. I began by, strangely enough, I had never met Sir Edmund Hillary. And the first two people I brought together on this with me were former deputy prime minister and finance minister of this country, David Cagle. And I said, look, tell me this is a bad idea because I want you to help me build an international board. He said, no, I think it's a great idea, I'm with you. Then I had to find a bag man to build some initial capital. So I went to my brother-in-law, who's a famous ex opera singer and also a sportsman. He ran New Zealand Cricket for some years. And I said, tell me this is a terrible idea. He said, no, I think it's great, I'm with you. So I then said, let's get on the plane and talk to Sir Edmund. He said, no, no, no, no, you get on the plane and talk to Sir Edmund. So here I was, Ed was 85. He met me, he shook my hand before I could say anything. He said, I've Googled you and my heart sank because for any of you who would like to Google me, there's quite a lot about me on the net and like anyone, about 10% of it is real and the rest of it is whatever. With a twinkle in his eye before I could say anything, he then said, where are we gonna do this? Not should we do this? Am I prepared to allow you to do this? Where are we gonna do this? And I was still, as you can tell, I'm not usually lost for words, I was still trying to find an answer to something here and he said, well, how about we do it inside of the Maunga? Too many things happened in Auckland and the Maunga he was talking about, of course, was Cook in the South Island. Aaragi, which was the mountain that he in his youth trained on, which was the foundation on which he then built his later career as perhaps the world's most preeminent mountaineer of his generation. And so I said, well, let's do that, Ed, let's do that. So I then spent 18 months working with him because the only condition he put on us was that we didn't do this until we were ready and that's 18 months of work. So on my 50th birthday, he told me, well, he didn't. A day before my 50th birthday, we were in Antarctica, he said, I'm gonna launch this tomorrow off the ice. I said, it's my 50th birthday, I'll be on the phone all day.  A year later, sadly, I spent my 51st birthday burying him and so we only had him for a year. And, but as an inspiration in terms of leadership, I always remember the metaphor that Ed liked to use, which was the mountain we have to climb as ourselves. And that is a great gift and it stuck with me. So here we are eight years on. We have built a modest organization. We have had the enormous pleasure to focus on leadership in mid-career. So we're interested in people in play now. As I said earlier briefly, we don't work with starlets and we don't work with old farts like me who are on the way to retirement. We look for people who are dynamic and in play and we try to make sure that we can give them some further leverage in terms of the work they do. So leadership in what? Well, leadership in mid-career, but then we realized it had to be, it was still too broad. So by that stage, we'd built an international board that had included a number of quite interesting people. Regender Pachari, who I'm sure many of you will be aware of and Nobel-winning laureate here to the IPCC, Paul Hawkin, my old friend from, many a friend to many of you here from San Francisco. Kevin Roberts, the global head of Saatchis and Manfred Ketz De Vries, who was one of the founders of INSEAD in Fontainebleau, trains chief executive of the last 30-some years. It was a very interesting group of people. The leadership in what question was concluded quite quickly, it decided they wanted to work in the first four years on the zeitgeist issue of our time, climate change.  So at that time we have created six global laureates and how that works is, as I said, I'm a glorified scout. I spend most of my time looking around the planet and taking feed and recommendations because you cannot self-nominate from a community that we have built over that time who tell us, here's an interesting person you should be looking at. And so they don't know, it's blind, the process is blind. So for instance, when we rang our very first laureate who's Jeremy Leggett, a preeminent Englishman working as you know, the forefront of the solar industry for many years, now heavily involved in stranded assets, heavily involved in peak oil work, an icon really in the UK community, he was up a tree in Bolivia putting up a solar plant and there was a pause because he thought we were winding, who are you people? We're the Hillary Institute from New Zealand, we wanna honor you as our first global laureate. There was another pause and then he said, well, you know what? I was born in the year Sir Edmund Hillary climbed Mount Everest and I'd be honored. And thankfully from then on, they have all been incredibly gracious in the response that they've had to our search and that family now includes the two latest, laureates 2013, Natasha Sultani, of course, a remarkable figure in terms of her life's work in the Amazon and Mike Brune, who is currently running, of course America's largest and oldest environmental society, the Sierra Club. In the middle, there's been a number of other very interesting characters. We have laureates from China, we have a friend of mine in terms of talk, I'll entertain of the closest we've got to our own country, President Anohti Tong of Kiribati. Anohti is in the front line of the impacts of climate change. There is no hiding from climate change. There is no comfortable place you can go to in his tiny group of battles up there in the Northern Pacific. He has no escape.  He spends his entire time rebuilding the rock wall next to the Europa where his ancestors have been buried for generations. He rebuilds that rock wall every two weeks or so now because it's continually washing over. Anohti himself is now 65. He says his father will die there. He says I will also die there, but I cannot and I will not make the same promise to my eight children. So he is actively pursuing a policy now where he is training his young Kiribati in skill sets which are absolutely designed to take them out of the history of their homeland and into the international community. This is real politic. This is deep emotion. This is real impact and it's palpable. And I encourage any of you who want to experience firsthand what a community of scale is having to deal with in terms of the front lines of this issue, go to Kiribati. The good news is you'll have to be with that community for a week. There's only one plane in, there's only one plane out. And it goes on a weekly basis. So that's in a nutshell the story I would have told you in far greater detail about what it is that we do and that's great and we continue to do this and I hope we can continue to do this for many more years to come and build gradually this community of laureates who are now starting to work together as well. So Mike and Atosia have come together with the proposition which we're starting to craft next week or next month in San Francisco which is designed for the Paris round in December in terms of the overall political process around climate change. It's an exciting project. I can't tell you anymore. I'm sworn to secrecy. Let me reflect very briefly however on what this means in terms of today's copeover which is the culture of this land I had the good fortune to be born in. And I'm a hopper. I have mixed blood. I come from a long line on my mother's side of French Jews. On my father's side I come from a mixed tradition which is part of the largest tribe in the South Island and squats. So like a lot of us here in this room I think the richness of diversity in your own lineage and history is a hugely valuable thing if over time you take the time to learn to understand those threads and I still need to do more of that work. But I've also spent most of my adult life in both of those major chapters of work outside of New Zealand and I still am in the privileged position Peter mentioned before our diaspora second largest in the world. 22 to 25% of Kiwis are offshore. The reality of that now however is that if you look at the productive cycle of their employment they're increasingly spending more of that time offshore in markets where they're very well received and in markets where they frequently excel and they are slower to come home. And part of the reason in my view they are slower to come home is that we as a nation in recent years and we've heard these stats today in various ways have lost I think the fire in the belly in many ways that enabled some of those sporadic bursts of genuinely progressive leadership which have occurred. And we heard the list and it's a list which is often repeated punching above our weight first votes for women. The nuke campaigns, anti-apartheid these are all moments in our history do they reflect a culture which is matured in the sense that it is constantly on the forefront of progressive leadership? No, we have a culture here which is with one notable exception which is beginning to learn the lessons of honoring the treaty in terms of how we are starting to relate to the time to federal of this nation and I'm talking the royal we here in terms of how we're building and realizing the value of that as our core. But generally speaking, this country is in my view lacking a clear sense coherent sense of vision currently. It's lacking a coherent sense of therefore where do we as individuals fit within it? It's lacking a clear sense of how we can encourage that diaspora to contribute back to this country. And it's lacking a sense therefore and obviously this room is an exception to that of generating enough excitement. Sam, thank you for that reference again to Rafe's wonderful idea of encouraging a global citizenry to come to this country and get excited about making a contribution. And yes, where are you Nigel? We should have a policy now which encourages the best we can possibly attract to this country to actually be a part of contributing to what reimagining our terror might be. And I think that to me that is really the nexus of New Zealand really coming into its own a combination of giving appropriate and real value to our core treaty partners to working here on the enormous richness of the indigenous knowledge that is in this place. Marrying that with the wonderful polyglot of people who have come here over generations as well. But for God's sake, let's give us a sense of where we're going. Somebody said earlier today, I hope the cameras aren't on or the media is not here. You know, and I won't be popular for saying this but in my view, we have a federal administration at the moment which is sitting on its hands. And it's missing an enormous opportunity to re-embrace a co-puppet which is going forward. And at this point, I have been inspired by some of the conversations I've been having with some of you which focused to me around one very interesting dynamic. And it is what matters to remind me a notion of this country perhaps as an incubation nation. Not a Petri dish for commercial interests to try out their latest technical toy with the greatest respect to those of you from that industry. But something far more than that. Something where the passion and the excitement of coming to contribute to this economy can be world leading. That we as a small island nation can say to our Scandinavian brothers, yes, we'll work with you. We are not a threatening presence to the hegemons of the world. We are in fact, yes, we have in the past demonstrated sporadic moments of real leadership. Let's see if we can't craft. I'm not talking about a master plan. You heard how much respect I have for master planning but I'm certainly saying let's try and give voice to a sense of vision, a sense of purpose and align that to the larger issues which are transnational in their very nature and which we cannot avoid. We cannot hide from. Sure, Australia's probably gonna become a burning continent far quicker than we will hear but we are not a new it from this. And God knows Sam and I in terms of the experience of the earthquakes and Christchurch have had some first hand experience of what the impact of major and what I was saying the earthquake was climate change related but you certainly get an understanding in the teeth of those sorts of girls of what those who are affected by these issues and will be increasingly going forward. So at this point please I wanna ask Matt to come and join me and I want to ask Matt to re-articulate to you this wonderful idea of the incubation nation. Mark and I just on break we're talking more about this notion of incubation nation and I guess we both share this passionate idea that this coherent vision and this leadership role is a possibility for New Zealand and I've felt over the past years coming to this place that New Zealand is in many ways still a blank canvas for this vision and so we feel honored to play a part in stewarding connections and collaborations in terms of painting this. I guess one question I have for you Mark that given you've studied leadership and that you're on the forefront and a tremendous mentor and role model to so many people some of the traditional notions of leadership are also quickly embedded in some of the structures that have caused a lot of these problems with the climate and hierarchical institutions and westernized thinking that may not be healthy for the planet and I'm curious if you can maybe share some thoughts for how new forms of leadership in New Zealand and in coming to New Zealand might look like and what aspiring leaders might be able to take as some of your wisdom. Well that's a wonderful question Matt. I'll do my best. Firstly I think if I can channel a TOSA for a moment. As many will know a TOSA Sotani is fond of telling every audience she addresses that if you put 30% of women into any governance situation whether it be institutional governance whether it be business governance whether it be community governance the chance of reaching sensible outcomes increases exponentially. And so and she's not arguing that as a feminist dialectic. She's arguing that based on significant research and of course that research is still young because the business as usual male powerhouse is still just that. I think the other thing I would say in parallels there also with her work is also the voice of indigenous communities collective leadership, collective ownership has also got a great deal to teach us in terms of the kateaki principles that we need to be serious about. Having said that I'm somebody congratulated me earlier today on being a pragmatist. Well I am, it's been hard won. I'm still a militant optimist but I'm also long enough on the tooth to have some sense of what's achievable and what isn't. So I think what we have to do is I took about the transition economy a lot moving ourselves away from looking in the rear vision mirror for instance at an industry which is dying called fossil fuels and transitioning into what a 21st century equivalent might be.  So a lot of the work that I now do is actually man to man is males with males. And it's about challenging some of the assumptions which we have learned as men, particularly those of us who've been privileged to be in positions of power over a great deal of time.  Great friend of mine died, many of you will know her here in this audience a couple of weeks ago, Celia Lashley. She began her work in women's prisons. She was an extraordinarily subversive prison governor. But interestingly when she retired from that role she invested the rest of her life in working with young men. And the reason for that was that she felt there was enormous gap in terms of men working with men. And so she started a program which she then got out of the way of which encouraged more of that. So I think the pragmatists, we have to be real. We talk about transition of any kind, we have to be real in leadership terms. There's a lot of BS about, there's an enormous amount of BS about. Where's Russell? Russell we were, he's gone, not here. Russell and I were talking this morning about the old conundrum of the difference between leadership and management, right? Okay, well, okay. There is schools of thought which would say that these are two very different beasts and they require different skill sets and so on and so forth and all of that has got merit. There's no question about that. And I'm not saying we dismiss the learnings that we have, but I am saying we need to be open to challenging them. And we have to be fearless in that because let's not underestimate, business as usual is still in control. Those of us who are entrepreneurial by instinct, I take my hat off to all of us, but we have to be fearless and we have to also be bright enough to bring these folks with us.  The experience in September, which some of you may have been on, in September last year in New York, of 400,000 mom and pops marching on climate change with people in Manhattan hanging out of the windows cheering us on was a revelation to me. This was super bold time, but what was most interesting about it because we actually anticipated 100,000 and we were staggered, never mind the police were terrified when the actual numbers don't know what they were, was the energy was about mom and pop. It was not about hierarchy. It was about, it was fearless, it was demanding, but it was palpable. And sure, old hippies like me were there in numbers, but my God, there was a really strong presence of young people there, which was the thing that also was so enthralling. So I don't know that's answered your question, but there's a combination. I mean, one of my mentors is Manfred Kettstevrice, who was the founder of INSEAD.  But his greatest strength is reflective practice. So here's a man with, you know, 26 books, 37 honorary doctorates, almost as many as Paul, and he's still passionate about learning all the time. So when he's engaging with you as a mentor, it's about, let's see what I can gain from you, not, you know. And it's lovely to find that iPhone in terms of the old paradigm, where so often the reverse is true. I'm in the command position and the authority position. And the other metaphor I'll leave you with here, which I think is instructive, is the military. But I'm not talking about the base military. I'm talking about the special ops guys. And for those who've had any experience of working with these guys, it's a different dynamic. Why is it different? Because their asses are totally on the line. They are most exposed. They have to have one another's back. There is no posturing in that. There is no pretense in that. The command structure is absolutely to do with survival. Mike Bruner and I have been talking about putting climate change on a war footing. Sounds horrendously over the top in one level and theatrical. But there are some lessons that I think what I mean by being fearless, that we need to continue to nurture around the combination of the urgency and the passion that's gonna be required to get us through this rather interesting next 20 years. And I'm afraid that I'm also incredibly cynical about the idea of my generation. I'm a baby boomer. I'm about to, I'm late fifties. Some of my generation are saying, oh, well, we've done a bit. We'll hand it on to you guys. Okay, we know we're leaving you a mess. Sorry about that. Well, that's not good enough either. We have to stay in play. We have to go the length of the journey. We have to go with you. But we have to bring mom and pop with us. Yeah. That was great. I have one more burning question that I'd love to get the audience in on this. The notion of moving from climate change to climate equality. And you've mentioned some of the principles of leadership around passion and fearlessness. And I'm curious, in particular, at affecting climate equality, what are some of the characteristics of great leadership that you would advise us on? Well, with luck, we will have a global accord historically for the first time in December in Paris. But that is the beginning of the next chapter. And the next chapter, in terms of the execution of something meaningful from that, will rest fundamentally on climate equity in that sense. So what does that mean? It means that we have to put our money where our mouths are. Those of you who have the privilege of living in privileged societies are going to have to be prepared to recognize there is a cost. I think we're also gonna have to recognize that when I bring a naughty tong into a room, and this man, for those of you who have not seen him, is emotionally absolutely compelling because he is fundamentally authentic. He is coming from a very deep understanding of the reality of what he faces. And he's coming from that not on the basis of saying to the world, this is your fault that we are in this position. And not on the basis of we are a basket case you need to take us on and help us out. But challenging, we to come with his community to build capacity so that they are able to continue the next chapter of their lives with grace and dignity. What does that mean? What's most challenging about that is that fundamentally, we're all human beings. So I guess, Matt, I'm not sure I'm answering this question well, but the equity, the climate justice side of this debate is fundamentally challenging for reasons that our previous speaker also voiced in part, which is for those who are most impacted and particularly those who socioeconomically are at the bottom of the tree. We were talking about this in terms of the communities that you work with around the world where the inequalities are most graphic. We have to understand these people don't have the luxury of engaging in a discussion like this. They are facing daily realities of a level of survival, which is profound. So that brings with it a whole other box of tools, which, as I said, go to Kiribati. I can talk to you about Kiribati, but you spend a week there in that situation and that's the way you're gonna understand the sharp end of the issue. There's no avoiding that. So yeah, I guess the insight is don't get tied up in the rhetoric. Don't get tied up in the moral virtue argument. Be aware that people are approaching this issue from very different points of view, depending on their circumstance, and use these. People come to me for leadership training, and I staggered sometimes because I don't say anything, and clearly I'm saying far too much. But I've tried very hard over recent years to get better at using these. And partly it's a gift because I've now got the technology that I can hear again, but it really is having the self-discipline to use these before you start saying too much too quickly. Questions from anyone? Yes? Yeah, thank you very much, Mark. And I really appreciate what you were saying about the war footing as well. And one of the paradoxes right now is that there are many different interests in play, and there's something I'm sure you're familiar with to do with nightmare coalitions, very unlikely alliances. And two of the really key players that are not talked about sufficiently are the military itself and the insurance industry. And both of them are tasked with being reality-based and operationalizing. And it's a very interesting situation in the States because the Pentagon is actually way out front just as they develop jet engines, microprocessors, satellite technology. They're now actually at the front of the curve in terms of developing clean energy and zero waste bases and so forth. So I wondered if you could comment on nightmare coalitions, unusual alliances? Thank you for that, Kenny. I think, yes, that's certainly a learning. Unlikely alliances, yes, nightmare coalitions. Critical. To have the Admiral of the US Pacific Fleet ask the question, what is the single greatest strategic challenge to the world's global hegemon at this point is answer is emphatic, climate change. It's not ISIS. This is strategic smarts. In this context here, we've heard a bit about the dairy industry in this country, right? I've put a lot of effort at home and another part of my life into making very sure that when we work on sustainability issues in this country that the dairy industry is at the table because they are so frequently seen as the pariahs. But the reality for agriculture in this country going forward is that again, thanks to the kind of technical expertise that's in this room, the New Zealand's future agriculturally is tied up with intensive cropping of far more value laden product than dirty cows. And your generation in this country is fast beginning to realize that. So I've been putting a bit of effort into the training of young farmers. Sam was mentioning conversations with his dad and I've got two uncles who are farmers and it is a very different world now when you look at some of the graduates coming out of farming training in this country because they realize the significance not only of the relationship between economy and environment but in their own best practice that they need to get out of a lot smarter about addressing real value from this feed the world opportunity that this country likes to think it has. So absolutely applaud that. And politically also, I mean, I have spent as I'm sure you have Kenny over far too many years, a great deal of time working with politicians of all kinds. And whether they be on the liberal side of the equation and they start out with a wonderful vision and then we get dissolution or whether they are quite obviously very conservative in their views, it is absolutely critical that we do not ignore that the political classes have to be part of the solution. So we can't just, a lot of people sort of seem to think we can absent ourselves from the politics, we don't care, we're not even gonna bother to vote. Well, how the hell do you build us a global citizenry if people aren't going to actually take part in the process? So there's a lot of hard work to be done in the political sphere as well. And I often spend a lot of time these days with conservative politicians, not liberals with conservative politicians. And I'm sure you would actually agree with me, my brother back there, in terms of the Maori renaissance in this country, in terms of the settlement, the Tribal Settlement Program, the great irony here is that the progenitor of that in large part was not a left-wing government, it was in fact a center-right government. And so again, these unnatural alliances are very powerful if you can be smart about how you actually engage. Yeah. Questions? Kia ora, Mark. I'm really interested in the shadow side of the conversation about culture and heritage and also about climate change and I see a lot of attention and energy put on creating the solutions, low-carbon solutions, while at the same time I'm still investing in fossil fuels and I've done screening of the managed funds sector in New Zealand and the KiwiSaver funds. There's still a lot of money in there and I just wonder about your view on disclosure and talking more about the risk of stranded assets in this conversation. If you're in that business, in the front line of that business, then I encourage you absolutely to be as public as possible in as many fora as you can in the media about the stranded assets argument. Absolutely, our own largest sovereign fund, as you say KiwiSaver, still heavily vested in fossil fuels. What does that mean to mom-and-pops retirement funds going forward? If you take Jeremy Leggett's argument, it means that they're putting their futures on the line. And I think that it's inevitable in the next decade or so that we will start to see major impact of people realizing that those assets are stranded and what does that do to the value of your retirement savings or whatever your investment. But the other side is I think let's also be clear that again it speaks to the laziness of a nation in my view, be it the investment public of that nation, if they simply take it face value that the markets are going to actually give them the answer here in terms of doing very little but taking the advice of the markets in that sense. They need to do a bit of homework. They need to go to guys like you and actually ask the questions. How can I actually have more knowledge of what I'm choosing and where I'm choosing to put my money? Question number one, and what does that mean in terms of future scenarios going forward over the next decade or so? And in this country, there's very, very, very little discourse in the investment markets and the needs to be. Jeremy's put a bomb under them in the UK and it's very interesting and the Rockefeller Foundation is funding him to do that work. And when he started, he was treated as a pariah. Now their doors are being knocked down by investment advisors so it can happen and that's happened in two or three years. So I would just encourage you if you're in that industry to be as vocal and as public and as provocative as you can be. Because where the smart money goes, we all know this. Where the smart money goes, so too does the pace of change following. Thank you for the hard questions, the hard talk. Really welcome. What's the place of the margins in these sorts of debates? It's been said that New Zealand is both warmth and defiance. We see it in our Maori communities, perhaps we see it in some of our more proactive visionary political stances. But it seems to me these sorts of spaces right here are rather rare and it seems this is where we can actually really get the energy going. Have the affirmation, have this hard talk, but what's the next step? It's been a lot of your time on the margins. Regener Pichare and I have monthly updates on the state of the planetary science, right? And believe me, they're not fun reading. I believe the way forward is going to be in social science, not in pure science, that we have to get a hell of a lot smarter at utilizing this extraordinary world we now live in in terms of social interaction at multiple levels, through multiple portals to ensure that the margins, as you call them, are engaged. There is no excuse in this day and age. You know, if strife must arrive for God's sake, can put the most advanced cell technology in the hands of impoverished Africans and leapfrog the rest of the world. There is no excuse technologically why we can't achieve ensuring the margins are part of this engagement and conversation. And I think in this country, you know, as we've just heard from Peter, I mean, there's still a massive mismatch in terms of some of our marginal communities here in terms of even being offered the opportunity to engage. And there's simply no excuse for that. There is no excuse for that. But that implies genuinely creative design in the processes. I'm a great fan of making sure that your scoping is good, that you have done the requisite homework to understand what is the best design of process which is going to bring you to a greater chance of resolution of an issue, no matter what the issue is, frankly. And then, for God's sake, find a way, as this wonderful gathering has done in so many ways, to enliven the moment every half an hour or so to have Elijah present some wonderful magic, to have this wonderful energy brought to us all in the room.  For God's sake, give people... Give them an opportunity to dance, you know? Well, one last question from Evan who's been asking for it. Thank you for sharing. So you've gotten to now observe and interact with this relatively small group of newly recognized, diverse leaders. Any patterns or traits or approaches that they have in common that we may not have heard about in, you know, the popular pop leadership literature, anything you've observed that you found particularly interesting? Thank you for that question. It was asked of me at lunchtime. And my answer was that if there is one common thread, and I mean, we haven't discovered most of these people, they are in mid-career, you know? I mean, Peggy Lou's a poster child for Clean Tech in China, you know? But the primacy, the metaphor I used was many, many years ago as a director in the theater, I evicted Russell Crowe from a rehearsal room, right?   And it was all about Russell and it was all about Russell's ego, all right? Many years later in Melbourne, I met his wife, Danny, in the street in Melbourne, and I said, I want you to tell Russell, please, from me, that he has matured out of sight as an actor. He had just done a wonderful film called The Insider, which some of you, I'm sure, would have seen. And this was a mature performance for which he was honored. And I was staggered at the growth in him. And I said to Danny, look, somebody got through to him. It wasn't me. Somebody got through to him. She said, well, he did this film in Australia called Romper Stomper with Peter Cox. And that was the film where he played the skinhead. And that was the film that got him an entree into Hollywood, and then the rest became gradually developmental path.  And I said, great, but please congratulate him, because the difference is here, he has learned it's not about Russell, it's about the craft. It's about the work. The man is still the man. He's a wonderful, complex character.  The learning that I have gained from these people is in every case, the laureates that we've been privileged to choose, in every case, it is about the work. Now, that doesn't mean they don't have an ego. They all have an ego. But it is primarily about the work. It is about the duende. It is about the passion that's driving them. It's about the larger whole. It is about a sense of community. It's not about me, me, me, me, me, me, me. And in terms of some of that lovely stuff we heard yesterday from some of our women colleagues, it's certainly not about the whole objectification, pretty, pretty, pretty, putting on the right costume stuff. So I guess that's the fundament. What they have in common is that. It's about the work. It's not about the individual. It's about the community and honoring and thanking Mark.