Nudge the TSC on some recent threads, kind of a hot July compared to probably expectations given that everyone likely extended the, at least in the U.S., the usual 4th of July vacation times with, you know, the week. We'll hit a similar phase like this in August with Europe, I'm sure. Asia, they never take vacations out there, so never really have that issue. Given it's a light week from the formal perspective, we can probably breathe through these in, you know, a half hour, 40 minutes, and really it's just about nudging people back to conversations that are happening on the forums mostly. But Todd, why don't you get started on the first couple and then we'll jump in on the other three. Sure thing. The first quick reminder is the annual TSC elections will be starting in early August. So that's for the 11 TSC seats, it's for all contributors and maintainers. We will be working on pulling together that list, much like we did last year at this time, and sharing the list with everyone on this call and more broadly on the technical list just so that everyone can ensure that if they're meant to be on that, as someone that is able to nominate themselves that they are certainly able to. And we'll also follow up with some more details on these specific timelines on the election just to make sure everyone's comfortable with that. And once that's ready, we'll get that kicked off in early to middle of August, looking to wrap up right at the end of summer. And then after that, we'll move forward with electing a new TSC chair as well. Any questions? And Todd, that's for, that'll be for people who contributed up to what date. We will, I don't know off the top of my head, that's part of what we're looking at in terms of finalizing the time timeline. But I suspect right up until early August, we had it pretty close to the nomination point last year. Okay. Thanks. Any other questions there? All right. Onward to Hackfest Planning. Brian, before I talk kind of more specifically on dates or locations, do you want to just talk quickly, kind of overall Hackfest thought, strategy, et cetera, and just back there? Yeah. So we had, we had a pretty good Hackfest in China. We had about 95 participants there. And thank you to Chris and to Arno and to Makoto and others who came in from out of the country to help to be the bridge there. It was really useful as a way to bring a lot of our members and developers from our core China companies closer into the development cycle. It felt a little more like a mini conference than a true Hackfest. But it did trigger some conversations, some thoughts about just making sure that the technical steering committee here views having Hackfest roaming around different parts of the globe once every two months, about on average once every two months is the right format, is the right pace, is something that people still find useful. There's no doubt that there's utility in the face to face. But we also want to make sure that people feel like the travel time and the two days that they put into this is of high value to them and their employers and all that. And so as we think about planning the one and one for the US in September and one later on in Europe, just want to make sure that that the enthusiasm is there. That the belief that it's the right format and un-conference kind of, you know, self-directed kind of thing is there. And that folks in the CSC are interested in taking leadership and defining the agendas and leading conversations there. And then that can be a useful guide to us at the Linux Foundation in terms of the right way to support these projects, the right decisions around location and timing. So it's an invitation for anybody on the call if you want to express an opinion about Hackfest, write a loan, write format. We can take a few questions here. We could also then take it back to the list. But yeah, just wanted to level that. Any thoughts? My only concern is travel budget. If there are every two months versus every three months, something like that. That's a couple extra. And it could be in the earlier days of the community having a pretty frequent pace was a good way to keep momentum going. And with light the fires, so to speak, and moving to about every three months might be a more affordable pace for sure, especially for the committed developers who still in need to be at each one of these, which would be really nice, really nice to have that, you know, kind of core that keeps coming to everyone. Hart, did you want to say your idea on the call? Sure. I just said something in chat. I think it might be a good idea to have kind of a more well-defined structure. If we want these to be Hackfest and not actual conferences and we want people to kind of get their hands wet with everything, we might want to to change the format a little bit. So we kind of have, we just intentionally leave, say, you know, a part free for hacking, because right now, you know, I don't know if this is necessarily a bad thing, but it particularly recently, all of these have sort of become more conference like where there's just talks and meetings and just the schedule is full, I guess, and people seem to prefer sitting in on talks to to hacking. So everybody just ends up, you know, sitting in on two days of talks, which isn't a bad thing necessarily. But we should figure out, you know, exactly what we want to get out of these, I guess, right? Would it make sense to do like two days of meetings and a day of hacking at the end or something like that? Personally, I'm not contributing a lot of code to any of the projects. I'm, you know, looking more at the working groups. I don't know how many other people are more focused on working groups than developing code. We've always tried to make room at the hackfest for those who just want to hack, you know, places where they can go off to the side. I think the key question is, does anyone do that if, you know, there's a fear of missing out? If there's presentations being given or talks being led, you know, does that become an attractive nuisance? It makes it hard to peel away with a couple of people and start working on code. So maybe Hart III frame, maybe the idea is, yeah, reserve the afternoon for no presentations, we've got to talk. But what we find is that a lot of people who show up at the hackfest are still pretty new. And so at the very least, we need, you know, some guidance on getting a desk environment set up and that sort of thing, just sort of can jump into the coding. So I think we need to provide room for that kind of activity as well. And sometimes that works better with somebody in the front, you know, classroom style, kind of leading the group through sometimes better one-on-one. Yeah, Brian, I've always thought that, Brian, I was going to say, I've always thought that hackathons were better when, like on the beginning or say more learning of each day, there would be like a 10 minute, somebody would peel off and say, hey, if you need help getting set up and getting going, you know, come with me and then kind of have a side talk where you just do, like you said, classroom style to get dev environment set up and stuff. So just kind of be aware that you're going to have people who are new to the community there and plan for a little bit of content for them just so that they don't drag everybody else down, you know, asking questions or feeling excluded because they don't know how to build the code just yet. Well, and in fact, the re-engagement of new people in the community is often a way to surface out bugs in not just the code, but in the onboarding process, in the, you know, the learning curve, where there are unreasonable obstacles, learning curve, that sort of thing. And so, like I've been a fan from the outside of Facebook's premise that if you're hired as an engineer, you should be able to commit code and have a push to production on your first day, right? And by the sound of it, most developers succeed in doing that, whether that's a good idea to move that to break things for us, I don't know.  Maybe that becomes kind of more of a focus for the HackFest, is kind of bootstrapping and, you know, bringing your dead end to the community. I really like that idea. It's a good idea. And as well, like Zippin is pointing out, getting folks from different projects to talk to each other because it's so easy to ignore what that not happened when we're focused on chat, that sort of thing is a good thing to have happen at a HackFest, right? That's why I've loved many of the presentations because they've been intentionally attempts to reach across the aisle to the speak. Yeah, so I kind of like the theme of all this. It sounds like maybe if we will have a little bit more time between the HackFest, that gives us a little more time for a bit of structure. It's still probably good to have that on conference format where we can be pretty flexible right up to the day of the conference or the day of the HackFest, but allocate a little bit of time for prepared presentations, a little bit of time for ramping new participants. Make sure that we've got kind of like a newbie area or something to get people on board with the projects that they're interested in, and then also some time for maybe kind of experience hacking where we've got some project to project work or something like that. OK. OK, well, these are for the September conference HackFest. Are you planning on a public one as well as the hyper-legal one? I know some sometimes you've done like two separate things. Well, we've done. Well, there is there is a thought that we didn't actually execute on but a thought that in China, we would do a hackathon and then that would lead into the HackFest. And we just decided for bandwidth and cost reasons to focus on the HackFest. And I think that was the right decision. We've also collated these things with other developer conferences. We had one close to construct, you know, here in San Francisco. In fact, in the beginning of this year, the other one two weeks ago in China was close to the Linux con happening there. So we try to correlate them to help make it easier for people to justify the travel, I think, and other things like that. But but they're always public. Every one of these things, you know, anybody can show up with them. We hope we get the core contributors, but we want to clear that we want to even newbies to come in. Why don't we talk then, you know, there's there's more. I would encourage folks to share over the TSD mailing list if there's some other ideas here. But I'm hearing so general support for the idea of having access to the idea of keeping them open to folks and and and the similar structure just raising the importance and the profile of just sessions focused purely on getting tables of devs together to write code kind of undistracted by a talking head up on a stage. You know, and make sure there's there's room for that and perhaps even avoiding the distraction in the schedule for some stretches of that, which sounds fine to me. I always feel pressure to add to the agenda so people feel like there's always something going on. But let's do the back side of that, too. So I don't want to go ahead. Yeah, I was just saying, giving focus to Bob's comment, our recommendation that we spend half of the day in the second as in the working groups, you know, more from the conference in perspective and the afternoon, then we go back to more access, but to change the flexibility that in certain days we might do more of one as opposed to the other. I think hard side, yeah, we should look at and see if we can improve on that. So I'll go back that much. OK, OK. All right, so based on all these conversations, people still feel like it's the right thing to be focusing on an event in the U.S. mid to late September and another in Europe, which before the end of the year, probably, you know, Novemberish late October, November, maybe even early December. We do have a doodle poll as Todd has put into chat for potential date for Europe regarding U.S. We have a couple of weeks that are a bit of a noted the 14th and 15th, 21st and 22nd. There are I don't think there's any ideal date that doesn't have conflict for some folks out there, but 21st and 22nd, I think we're looking either one of these actually work for Linux Foundation staff to support. And we do have some good options in Chicago for free interest in space. That's the city that's easy to get to from spreading the world. So that's what we're looking at for Chicago and in Europe, I kind of try to drive folks to the doodle pool there. But OK, so so unless unless we hear strong indications again, we'll continue to move forward. I'm planning for those to hack that and have to be many of you there. Any other thoughts or comments? Yeah, yeah, so I just put some stuff in chat. I think a lot more people would be interested if we got some kind of toy projects and advertise them in advance of the Hackfest.  I think like the Sawtooth Lake battleship or, you know, that I mean, that may have ended up being pretty complicated, but just fun projects that people can get their their feet wet with coding. We don't actually have to have people make significant contributions at the Hackfest, you know, it's only two days and, you know, even the best people are only going to be able to do so much in two days. But we want to put people in position where they can make substantial contributions. And if we kind of get them started, get their feet wet, you know, that's oftentimes the most difficult part of the learning curve and where a lot of people, you know, stop. So if we kind of get people over that hump, then we might we might be able to gain more contributors, which I think is the ultimate goal of these things. Yeah. OK, well, thanks for the feedback, everyone. And we'll, you know, the Hyperledger staff will continue to move forward in planning these two events and we'll have to see most of you there. Why don't we talk, why don't we move on to the agenda item. Great. I think the next thing is the security code reviews and bug bounties and Brian, I know you kicked off a thread shortly ago on this. I did and I apologize for getting it laid out there and intended to kind of last night. But I'll just briefly go through it and Dave's on the line, too. And he he's going to own this going forward. So I, you know, look at him for this. But but he and I have been working him mostly actually doing the legwork in setting up two two things that we think will help reassure the public about the the security priorities of the organization for the code that goes out from here, especially code that carries a label of one dot oh and beyond. Right. So the first of those is that when we push code out as different projects get closer to a one dot oh, the Linux Foundation is willing to fund the cost of doing a proper security audit for the project. We've been talking to different vendors. We get a rough swag of about 40 K on average, sometimes more, sometimes less. We think that's important enough to fund, at least, you know, at some point in the young project's life, you know, before it gets on or soon thereafter. And so we'll take that burden on. And that's the way to help reassure all projects, you know, whether you are well, well financed trends or not. That you're part of you're part of something bigger here. And obviously, that still means that we need to be thinking about the secure coding practices after that point. Hopefully, the process of going through that will help burn into the minds of the maintainers, you know, what are what are what are code paths that lead to problems, whether the types of, you know, the sensitive programming that we should do more of that sort of thing. But we think it's suitable to do it one time. And if projects want to do it after that point and find a way to pay for it themselves, that's great. But we think that's the baseline that everybody carrying a 1.0 moniker from here should carry. The second is it is bug bounty. You know, I think it's been extraordinarily effective in certain parts of the open source world, particularly the web browser world for companies to post public bug bounties for security vulnerabilities. And that's that's a really a big way, I think, of building trust in public trust in the integrity of the code. So we've even started to engage a company that's called Hacker One, by the way. We haven't closed the deal with them yet, but we really like what they've been talking about. And they have a baseline service for bringing projects like in open source projects in particular and running a process with they have a private hacker developer community that they've basically enlisted to do all sorts of different projects. These are gray hat hackers, folks who are also committed to the standard disclosure process. And that's how they get there to be able to claim claim the prizes. Typically things like the start out very low values as you clear out a lot of the low hanging group, you know, a couple of grams or less per for vulnerabilities. But hopefully we get to the point where, you know, projects might have outstanding bug downings and the tens of thousands or more, right? I think Chromium is kind of the gold standard here. It has what, a hundred thousand dollars or two hundred thousand dollars is for bug downing. You know, hopefully, I don't know if we'll get that high very soon, but something that stands out there that says, OK, bring it, right? And you'll get rewarded for it if you follow the right process. So we'll fund the relationship with a company like Hacker One to set up this independent process. But what we will need will be crowd funding for the prizes per project basis. And so what we'd like to do is work with the vendors in this community around the different projects to fill a queue, basically, of prizes. For finding vulnerabilities in the different products. That's a good way for the I think the commercial community on each project to stand up in a test to their confidence in the code. It could be that the board figures out a way to distribute some funds equally out there as well from our core hardware literature funds. But we think the validation that comes from having companies involved in filling that that those those buckets would actually be also a really good signal. So with that, I just wanted to put it out and open it for comments. And we can take comments on the list as well. But just putting it out there. Any initial reaction? Richard, I think it's a good idea that certainly the funding, the security audit, the, I guess, the tension in any project is always when to do it. Certainly, I look at it to see corners not in this process at the moment. But the question we ask ourselves is, you know, at what point do we do it? When the situation you do it early and you you already know there are still issues. So I pay someone to tell you what you already know, they've been too late and you risk going live with no issues. So whether it's when it's you call one or no or whatever you call it. But a milestone when you're saying to the world, you know, we think this thing is is broadly ready or this thing, you know, is useful for some scenarios that kind of feels like a milestone. I think it's good at it. This is Nathan from on the Hyperledger Indie Project. The Sovereign Foundation has sponsored this kind of audit and it's in process right now. And I can't say that we found anything that's groundbreaking or really surprising, but it's been really healthy to have them digging through all the different parts of the code and also the different aspects of the design. It's helped our documentation mature and it's also forced us to answer a lot of questions that in a much more clear and concise way than we had answered before. So both the security audit as well as having a Hacker One profile have been helpful for us as a project. So I think that it would be of general interest and generally helpful to all the projects going forward at Hyperledger. Well, I'm happy to take more feedback from this. But at this point, we're moving forward on both both these fronts. And so let us know pretty soon you have strong opinions different than perhaps those directions. But yeah, thanks for the positive feedback. Why don't we dive next to the next topic? And again, this is another nudge back to a thread kicked off recently on the TSC list, which is just a quick discussion about third party dependencies and the licenses on those dependencies. I wrote up in my technical in my typical overly long fashion, perhaps. But the core thing is when you've got an open source project that depends upon products under other licenses when you have a hyperledger project, at least depends upon projects under and code under other licenses. No problem at all. It can be proprietary. It can be any other license. But it's when it becomes an issue is when we redistribute those dependencies as a part of the package that one pulls down from the hyperledger website. Right. And so when that when that happens, then what we need to do is look at those licenses and if they are very different from the standard IP policy we have in the charter, which is Apache for code and and creative comments, attribution license for documentation, then we need to that this is the standard process, go and get governing board approval for that. And I think we've been pretty easy going so far, partly out of, you know, we figured we needed the ground to settle a bit as projects made their way to one dot to figure out what are the dependencies that really need to be included in the images that get redistributed. But a strict interpretation would be even code that's checked into the repository needs to follow, you know, even if it doesn't end up as part of the final image that gets redistributed. Even that would need to get authorized because essentially because it's in our repository, we are redistributing it. So we are going to this process now with fabric. We've completed the audit of the different packages. Thank you very much to the fabric team for helping piece together all the licenses for this different third party code. And due to the nature of how Go works, we are bundling a lot of dependencies in rather than using operating systems, package management mechanisms to load those dependencies. The process has also been conducted, I think, on the other projects. I think Tracy said everything except, everything except Indy and Burrow. That's right, Brian. OK, so and we'll be covering those soon. So there should be tickets in your issue tracker for any other things that we need to go and get approvals for. But just wanted to highlight this for the developer community that, you know, this is there's there's a process around that, you know, the earlier we can address that and get approvals for that, the better, especially when some of the licenses like some of the code and fabric isn't strictly OSI approved. It's under wacky licenses like the WTFPL, which, well, looking like it's not a problem at all, still requires overhead on the part of, you know, lawyers and others to look at and go, OK, this is this is the nine. It's better. So anyway, just a flag and if there's comments on it, happy to take feedback here or on the mail. And. Yeah, I just wanted to I wanted to add, Brian, so I was thinking about what I wrote on the list yesterday. And I'll probably send out an update for that. But what we're scanning is just what's in your repository, right? So if you are building in those third party dependencies without having them in your repository, I think that's still something to be on the lookout for, right, where the license can won't catch that. It's something that the individual teams will have to catch. That's a good point. Any thoughts or comments or should we just follow up on the thread? OK, well, not hearing other thoughts. We'll move on to the next topic, project reporting.  Yeah, so the last TSC meeting that we had on June 15th, we had brought up a proposal to do project reporting. And in that meeting, we kind of took the the information to the list to try and talk about it, right, where people were interested in really looking at, say, metrics instead of the project reporting. You know, and we didn't really get a whole lot of response to the information on the metrics. And so, you know, it it seemed like we we still have this open issue of how do we track projects, the health of those projects? How do we do oversight on those projects? And so, you know, I think it's still very appropriate that we we talk about project reporting and and what we want as a TSC, right, to really understand how projects are behaving, how the communities are either growing or or not, as the case may be, right, and to really understand that the health of those projects.  Yeah, thanks for orchestrating that. Tracee, I'm sorry, I didn't respond on the thread there. I did review what you posted again this morning, though. And it looks like a valuable list of metrics. I'm always doing tradeoffs with what's not really what's what's valuable or what's not valuable, but what is really a tradeoff in what's the most valuable thing that we could be doing with any amount of time or resource. And I know that from at least from my individual perspective, I don't feel like I'm doing as much coding as I feel would be constructive for the project. So when I kind of weigh against doing reporting or administrative kinds of functions versus doing more direct technical contributions, I prefer not to stack more things on that reporting or administrative side. So, you know, I'm kind of inclined to hold off on more of these reporting activities maybe until the projects have another year behind them. And, you know, we can kind of see where things qualitatively feel to us like like they're growing stale or imbalanced and certainly if something acute happens, we should be able to address it on the fly, but maybe starting to build the metrics, you know, a year out from now. And so I will push back on that just a little bit, Dan. From the perspective of your role as a contributor to Hyperledger Sawtooth versus your role as a member of the TSE, right? And what would you like to know more about the other projects that are happening, right? So I take your point, obviously, that providing information and doing reporting does take time, right? But I think there's two separate roles that you have to consider in what you're playing right now. And so I would ask kind of what do you think from your role as a TSE member, you would want from understanding what's happening in the other projects? Yeah, certainly I appreciate that. And there's a distinction between roles there. I think even with wearing just a TSE hat, the kind of technical steering that I'd like to be providing is maybe being more read on things like the hash graph proposal that came through and devoting more in that technical direction. And then, you know, as we start to sense that there might be issues with project health, I think we can still address those without necessarily doing a monthly tracking. Maybe in another parallel with hash graph, we could set up an explicit rule for things or try to quantify things directly, but the amount of time that we put into trying to do that quantification might just be better spent, more efficiently addressing things that we feel qualitatively. Yeah, I think one way to think about this is there is a mandatory oversight role that has to be performed somewhere in the organization on all projects, right? From the day that they enter. And that's just to make sure that a project both isn't doing something acute and obvious and bad, but also hasn't become more abundant or something that doesn't fulfill our claims when we say when something's a hyperledger project, it is developed in the public, it follows the processes, you know, that sort of thing, right? And so that oversight function, you know, by default, if no one else did it, would be performed by the board, right? The governing board who is very smart, very capable, but I think we've succeeded for good reason in having the governing board trust the TSC to perform that role, right? Alternately, we could have the hyperledger staff perform that role. But I think in across these three different options, right? The governing board or hyperledger staff or the TSC, if you're on a project that is underperforming from those perspectives, you know, who would you rather hear that message from, right, who's gonna be more of a democratic voice in managing that, that's going down the road. It seems to me like it's the TSC. Now, by staff can do a lot of the legwork in collecting data, in organizing this process, nudging projects to the right thing. It was fully planned to, that's what Tracy's full-time job is. But at a certain point, there's a call that needs to be made if a project is underperforming, because it needs to be excised from the project, right? Or corrected in some way. And so that oversight function, I think the TSC should fight for and own as the technical heart and soul of the project. If not, we can find another place in the organization for that role to be fulfilled. It doesn't sound like it needs to be exclusive. But I mean, you were hinting, Brian, at some role for staff to do the evaluations. Does it make sense for staff to do the evaluations and raise exceptions to the TSC? It makes sense for my staff to be involved in nothing the project to be following and know whether what's being reported out from them is what it should be, right? I think there's still an important role for the leaders on that project to play in leading that, whether it's quarterly or monthly or whatever, but actually reporting back, because if there isn't that sense of ownership there, there's probably not gonna be a sense of ownership of fixing any problems that get noticed, right? So there are, I mean, the concern is status report for the SICA status report. As opposed to status report for the sake of actually evaluating the health of the project. And as the TSC, I don't wanna be reviewing status reports that were generated for the sake of generating status reports. So how do we, I mean, I know we've had all these discussions before about cadence seems to be appropriate, sort of managing exceptions rather than managing steady state, but the kind of third one is just the kind of what's new part of the projects is always nice to be able to hear and have as a common topic for discussion. Do we need to use our weekly TSC time for those or would it be possible to have kind of a quarterly longer meeting where we bring in projects for kind of a status update, status what's new, what's planned on these calls? So not take our one hour and dedicate it to that, but actually have a two or three hour session quarterly that's set aside for exactly that purpose. I really think if you take those two or three hours and spread them in the form of 10 minutes a week. So here's my concern is that when a project does go quiet, then the ability to fix that and bring them back into, well, if project developers stop using the public tools, for example, and they start privately talking about building the code, it gets harder and harder as time goes on to correct that behavior. Yeah, by the way, I was not talking about the exceptions. The exceptions certainly could come into the meeting. So it's probably like, how do you monitor for the exception and respond? Okay. I think it's more important to be agile and respond quickly when you see a community that is not responding to bug reports, is not responding to new users asking questions, right? And are fixing that within a few weeks of it becoming a problem rather than realizing three months later that there haven't been any commits or triage of bugs in the issue tracker or anything for a while, right? And this is, by the way, not related in my view to evaluating the technical direction of a project. Are they technically working on the right thing? That's still something I think, you know, is the different level of conversation. This is really more, are the projects exhibiting the kinds of behaviors we need as open source projects in terms of bringing new developers in, conducting their work in the public and showing the kind of help that they need to be showing. Ah, yeah, let it say. I took a move that... I think it's fine because, yeah, governments have to be a good thing and therefore the processes have that. So we need to ensure that there are issues that can be applied in a timely manner. How best to do that? I think FTSC assumes most of the government is functioning and it means that as soon as something needs to be done, then it's your expectation to receive, to be looked at, to be inspected before that issue is that it impacts the focus in the main project. How best to do that, I can't say, but I still think as you said, it should be at that. Well, why don't we... I'm gonna continue this over email a bit. I definitely get the sensitivity to not wanting to create real extra work. My hope would be that the template that we come up with to fill out is something that somebody who is an active maintainer should be able to respond to in 30 minutes, you know. It's not something that requires a lot of extra legwork to go get and if it's healthy, if the project's healthy, it's steady-state. It is not reporting for the sake of reporting, but reporting so that the rest of us can maintain an ambient awareness of the health of each of the projects as a high-polisher. This is just, for those who've been involved in the Apache Stocker Foundation on the Managing Project, this is a key reason for why that process, when it works, it works well. Now, perfect, it doesn't catch everything, but if it didn't happen, that community wouldn't have scaled to what their reputation that they have. Anyway, just wanted to gin that up and please take a look at that thread and participate on it on the TSC. I do think I wanna come back to the TSC with a specific proposal to vote on to adopt a template of some sort. And so let's talk about what that is, but if it is not something that TSC wants to do, we can figure out a different approach as well. But I do think it's the right thing for the TSC. With that, any other thoughts or comments? Do we call it away? If not, we can just leave it for 12 minutes back to the coming minutes. Hey, Brian, we gotta talk a little bit later this morning. Do you wanna reach out on email and just try to knock that out real quick? Send me a phone number, whatever I can reach you at. Okay, yeah, yeah, I'll be done in a minute. Okay, I guess that's it. All right, talk to everyone soon. Have a good day. Thank you. Thanks everyone. Bye. Have a good day, have a good day, bye-bye.


Break for school goals, you know, I think that's what you just said. Uh, and then October, October 16th, this fall break, that's another. Yeah, it's well for St. Brain. It's that in service make up for the teacher conferences. And then, yeah, the Thanksgiving ball break is the 20th. So both of those are. And I guess actually the 27th is the 20th is the third. Yeah, so those are school. You know, does the city of Longmont observe that Indigenous people stay on October 9th? Yes, I think that's a state holiday too, isn't it? Um, I don't know. I looked it up. It's a state holiday, but I didn't know how that meant the city observed it. So yeah, so we, so it's something like because you have a number of people in this room who have or succeed with the school district that there is desire to move back to over 16, meaning and possibly the November 20th. Is that what I'm possibly hearing? I think for me that a November one is more problematic, but I love you. Yeah, October one is more problematic for me, but I can be home in time for it. Okay, so we have to start settling down for the Tuesday beginning of the week anyway. Anyone else see problems right now with their number? I think it's just me. Okay, so my thought is to keep those then. If you only have maybe one person out for each one that that will still have the important majority. Anyone want to suggest otherwise? Otherwise, I think we should go ahead and keep the fall meeting schedule on the third Monday. And just, unfortunately, our captain will be out in November and possibly in October. Is December the 18th okay for everybody? That also is fine for me. I don't know. That keeps us in line the whole fall, which would be nice. That's fine for me in December. Seems some other nones. Okay, well let's read this out as needed, but for right now let's plan to keep all the fall meetings third week of the third Monday of the month, knowing that there's going to be one or two with people missing. Okay, well let's go ahead and be one of the old business. John and Lily are going to be turning these mainly over to you, but follow up through the cities first. So on August 8th, City Council set up the ballot for the library to be on the election in November. Tomorrow night's meeting will be their resolution. Susie, what? No. That's not the right word. I'm trying to unmute myself. So like you're too fast. So we are going to be hearing it on second reading. That with the second reading, it is also public hearing. So as we read each item, so like the first, you know, under the first reading, we can choose to adopt all of that as a set package, you know, and pull each item for discussion as we need to typically be dealt. So the second reading, each item, so each ballot measure, we did separate it into three. The library is standing alone. The white field, the centennial pool, as well as the rec center is one ballot initiative. And then the final one was the, help me out here. The performing arts. Yes. And that was the one where if they don't raise if the nonprofit, the performing arts coalition doesn't raise the 35 million, then we will not be collecting within five years, then we will not be collecting attacks. So that was the one that kind of went on my off my radar for a moment. But, but yeah, so if anybody or if you have, if you have in your own networks, some of you is really passionate about coming in and speaking about the library or any one of the issues, I encourage them to come for the public hearing on Tuesday. It's easy final call. Yes. To clarify, does that mean that the order that instead of a public invited to be heard at the beginning that there'll be opportunities for the public to be heard throughout the meeting? There'll be opportunity for public when that particular item is called on the agenda during the second run ordinances on second reading. So when it passes, if it passes, I should say it, if it passes, then from there if the city will move on to get it put on the ballot. So this is the final one. Thank you. So in the packet, I think I included the the ballot language that's been written so far, so you can do that and see, well, you can see it all, but certainly from the library, how that hell that's being written. So one of the bigger things I wanted to share tonight, so we, a little a few months or two ago, I brought in an architect so they could do some architectural renderings to basically help with informational. So if someone were to consider a library, be helpful to see some type of visual, what that might look like. And so I want to share those with you tonight. They just sent me those today. So let me go ahead, Captain. So yeah, just looking at the language, I noticed that it does not actually state that it would be increased to the preferred level of service. So Susie, can you speak to that? Why that language isn't in there? Or if there was an objection to that? No, actually the the city council did approve to support attaining the preferred level of service. I don't know why it would have, unless it's something that's going to be incorporated in the sales tax or in our annual budget. But I know that our last, when we did the first, we had had and when we itemized it out into separate where we agreed to have it on the ballot, we agreed to have it separate from the rec center, and we all agreed that we do need to do the preferred level of service. Okay, well, something happened between me and Captain. I would really appreciate that because I feel like that's a huge issue. Yeah. Yeah, Captain, reading the ballot language, I think the, I mean it's in there that there's an abridge library and funding and maintenance of all city libraries. But I think we need to hold them to that preferred level of service language because otherwise they can always move the bar. Yeah, so it sounds like from what Susie was saying, that clarification from the city on that would be helpful and important. Yeah, especially if the record shows that city council already going to approve that language. Okay. The city council did approve to finance to preferred level of service. I don't know and let me connect with Harold to ensure that the ballot language does indicate that it will get us to that performance because as I'm looking, it does say the maintenance and improvement, but you know we want to make sure that it's the bars that hired and just the minimum. So let me double check with him and find out. Thanks Susie and I'm assuming that there's a pretty tight turnaround for any changes to the ballot language. Is that a fair assumption? Yes, but as council we can amend. Okay. So that just might mean the meeting will go a little later, but we'll amend if we need to go. Perfect. Great. Well, thank you for taking that to Harold. Yeah, I do know that the financial mask includes that. I saw some language in there. It wasn't in the ballot itself and I think that's what Catherine was speaking to and underneath that are some other information that would be included in the city brochure that we sent out and some other materials and that's good in order to indicate, you know, I've actually raised the question to that point in a brochure of the language of preferred level of service is only meaningful if you know the feasibility in my opinion. So I'm not sure in publications about language aside, if it's written and kind of put in these brochures or the city voting guide or verbal service out of context, I'm not sure if that makes sense, but that's just my thought. I think explaining what that means. I mean in my mind, it's getting the library funding up to a level that can support a population of 100,000 not 65,000. To me, that's really what this is about. But it's a good point that Catherine makes. I don't know that the ballot language itself is real clear about that, but I know the financials are there. There's the property tax for the building and there's a sales tax for operations of both the new library and an increased funding to our current budget. The math is there. Right, right. So what's missing is really that explicit link between the numbers that we're asking voters to support on the ballot and what those numbers get us. Correct. I agree with you. I think that preferred level of service as a phrase is a little germany. It makes it sound like this is above and beyond preferred. This is what's required for a population, like you said. This is the standard level of service of a population of this size. It's an interesting point that without knowing what is in the Yeah, I think outside of the feasibility study, I mean, you can argue it sounds kind of like a luxury or it's creepy. It's like, well, no, that's not really what it is. It's responding to the study that clearly shows that this library is underfunded for the city of this size. And somehow that's what I think needs to get communicated. You can say prefer by explaining it. But yeah, so there seems just to kind of sum up, it seems like there's really two different questions we're talking about. What is the public communications? Does this language make sense? And the views expressed so far does not. But to Catherine's point, you know, it also needs to Recording in progress. Recording stopped. What needs to be about it versus kind of what needs to be in these public communications? Correct. So I think I agree that it's not to use that language in some of the permission or informational materials.  Well, I'm sorry, I missed part of that discussion, but I was on like 3%. So I didn't want to risk it. But yeah, I think my only the relevance of that language to me is sort of a continuity in terms of like the conversation with city council in the city and being able to point to statistics and figures that were developed, you know, so that it's potentially perceived as like less biased, I think. And yeah, there's just an accountability piece there that I agree. I can see how it might have connotations of grandeur. But yeah, I guess I just worried me more personally about making sure that the powers that be uphold that expectation and then the language holds them to the unexpected expectation if it were to pass. That makes a lot of sense. And hopefully, Susie, that's helpful discussion for you. It seems like in terms of the ballot, thank you, Susie, for making sure those concerns are brought forward. And then, otherwise, I'm wondering kind of this board's place at this point in this discussion. I don't know if we really, now that this has been wrong in the second meeting, I'm not quite sure that we have a place in this discussion. Beyond the types of conversations we just had. Basically, what I'm saying is I don't think it is, the question I'm raising is, do we need to take action for any part of this right now? And I'm not seeing a place where we would necessarily. And I know some of that, our hands are tied a little bit legally at this point. Hands are tied a little legally, right? Because we're in that boat now. Yeah, it's big. So it's not campaigning, seeing as me. But one of the things that is allowed, and this would be good time for me to start sharing my screen, actually, I'll share the renderings in a second, but you might remember, this was shared with basically everything. So we're in the vampire ghouls mode right now, but remember that you, a board can always have some resolution of an official expression. So that's the one thing that could happen if the board desired to go to court counsel and pass a resolution of some sort. Of course it's tomorrow night, but I'm just saying those are within the rules. There's also the blood and stakes part that I'm thinking about. So like there's this question, like my marketing brain thinks like, all right, we need information, the library, this initiative, I won't say the initiative needs an educational informational campaign for the public. And where does that sit? Whose role is that to do that? Not even in an advocacy way, but just to put it into layman's terms. Like the document that you shared with us had blank spaces for those those in favor believe this and those who oppose believe that. But that's really important stuff to know and think about me talking about in our communities prior to this election. So the city will produce them. They will produce a voter guide. With all the other stuff. That has, yes, it'll have like, if you vote yes, this is what it means for every initiative. It's like the little one. Right, so I guess part of me would just like to see something additional that is just like. So the, oh just library voters. Yeah. Well the other thing that the city will do is they will communications will create a more for sure. That's not so much.  And so what can go in there are some other pieces of information, including the renderings. So, so let me, let me show you yeah. My team and I have had a number of meetings with an architect. This is very well known in Colorado library and the studio show.  Yeah. Okay. So we worked with them talked about, you know, all our kind of values and everything that we want to see in a library of potential or within the community or so could benefit from a new library. So these renderings are visionary in nature, right? You're not seeing is an actual building that you're going to get necessarily. It's more like what what happens within a library, a new library for a long time. So I'll show you these three renderings they cannot win. So that this first one you see and everyone on the screen can see I'm sure. Or you were telling me no. Okay, thank you. So the first one of these is is basically the overall concept of this and what what this space we named is like an innovation or creation type of space, right? And you can kind of get that from looking at this. So we have our library of things back here. So we wanted to represent aspects that we currently have that are very popular that would carry forward in any new location that we'd be fortunate enough to get that people are here looking at all the different rules that we have. You have a couple of kids up here playing with new technology and sort of this predate space back here. Think of this as like a maker space and the idea is to visualize this not necessarily as one room, right? That's what I think their goal is is like we're trying to represent a number of things in this maybe an area of the library that might expand the other room. So even though you see library of things here and a maker space here, it doesn't mean they're actually there, right? It's just the idea is to show you what what could be. And then, you know, we're still library, we're still about books. So we this is showing, you know, books here and a book display. This side is showing there's a bike repair demo going on. So like an on the flight demo. These people are sitting on, you know, kind of some steps and they're they're looking at the demo from there, right? And you kind of see there's an upper level here, some classroom space and things like that. Kids playing here. And then, you know, some great when we talked about a library, one of the things I said is we need lots of light windows panoramic views. Now, whether the space we have is going to provide that we'll see, but I want to show that because I think anywhere in one that you can have, you can still get some of you or something, right? So so that's the first rendering. The second rendering is what this is showing is our our children's space kind of in the background here. So you have some children's activities here. I don't know how small this is showing for everybody else, but these are actually very large, by the way. And these are meant the size of these are meant to be printed like on poster size. So if we can do informational things in our lobby here, this can be included. This is a representing a sensory table. So like, you know, that kind of thing here for kids. And then just just some open space, people playing games, just interacting a teen space in the background and games, you know, and then a drop in learning area where class is going on. So again, not necessarily one space, but, you know, showing you, and this is what we called, I think the learning area. So that's what that rendering is trying to show. We also asked again for you know, different textures, color you see in the background. I'm big on color, so I was pushing for a lot of color, you know, things like that. So and then the third rendering that I created is an outdoor space. And this is the one at least for me I have the most fun with because I thought this was important to have been a big deal in Colorado, right outdoor space, but also connected to a library. And so there's a lot really going on in here if you look at it. So yeah, there's a patio, there's people sitting doing various things. There's a little story time going on over here outside. You have the canopy, people hanging out. You can see a person back here on the bicycles, presumably maybe there's a path that's going around the library here. In the back here, you have a mural that is a create space. So they're actually working on this right now, the type of mural that's meant to be temporary. So it can come down and then something else happens. People are above, looking down, and this is a fire pit. I left our risk management personnel out of this meeting. But you know, I don't know, we actually would have a fire pit in the library. I could see like an outdoor fire place, right? Like in a wall, it's safe. But at the same time, I want that feel of something where people can enjoy being outside, even if it's not like a hot summer night, even though this is sort of representing comfortable weather. So those are the three renderings they created for us that I received today. And they should be included in any of those brochures and any informational materials that we have, which I think will help. I think people need a visual of something, you know, to kind of, the overall idea of these is creating something that people can see themselves in. And that's really what we were going for with these. And following the meeting, I can certainly send these out. I didn't have them in time. Obviously, I'm sure you'd probably like to look at them further than beyond these few minutes. I think these look great. I love how flexible these spaces are designed to be too. And that was cute. That's so great. Oh yeah, I feel like I must have missed this somewhere. But is this a renovation of the existing library or is this a virtual branch library? So this is representing, well, it's more representing a new branch, a new construction. But I wouldn't necessarily tie yourself to that. I mean, that's what they went, that's what the architect went from. So we're building a new branch. It potentially would go here. It didn't really matter where it was, but it was a new construction. So they went from that to kind of have some leverage to create, you know, some of what you see here that, yeah, this isn't probably, this is not a renovation certainly from this library. This isn't a new branch. So I think we're going back to the second rendering. One thing I really, I mean, I love all of these, but I love this one because I think that people still so strongly associate libraries with print books. And I think that rendering out of all three really shows that as well, which I think is persuasive. It was, it was very intentional to have that. And in fact, I'll come back here, but the first rendering initially it was, it had no books. And I was like, we kind of talked as we need to have some books. I mean, and still if we're wanting people to see themselves in the library, it can't be all outdoor and very creative spaces because that does not appeal to everybody. You don't appeal to a lot. People still, you know, they associate libraries with books. It's a fact. I mean, that's still our core. So we made sure even in this space to have books here and actually up here where this person is standing teaching, I mean, this very thing back here is supposed to resemble books as well, you know, like a wall of books. It's a little much more subtle there than here. Yeah. Yeah. But I agree. That was something we were pretty thoughtful about. That comes great with that thoughtfulness. That was actually my favorite rendering. The first one, because I thought most immediately conveys the various types of exchanges that happen in a library. But it has the books, it has the objects and technology. It has the interaction between humans. Yeah. I thought it was really nice and inclusive. And although natural life. I mean, I'm really glad you're seeing all these things because these are all the things we talked about in this process. So this is just partly my ignorance of how this works. So the city puts forth the blue book language, but then in my understanding partly that they also put forth other communications that would include pieces, informational communications that would these are things they will create like a brochure. It's more, I mean, it's really more of a marketing material to encourage people to go out and vote. So that's different in the sense that we can include images like this and some other aspects that would necessarily be in a blue book or guide. It'll still be information. It'll still have some of those pieces. But that's the advantage is you can do things like this. The rec center also has rendering. So I imagine that will be that same brochure. So we're kind of jumping between something that might be under this agenda, I don't know. Which is just fine. But I guess my question is after hearing this, still is there a role for this board within this process. And it sounds like at this point, not necessarily. But thanks, Susie. I know you have your hand up and had a comment in the chat. Okay. Thank you. You know, I just, John, this question is more for you. Tomorrow when we, so during Oregon's second reading, at times we do have somebody from staff presenting, are these slides going to be presented to us tomorrow night? I didn't see it in the packet where there was opportunity for that. I don't know. I would certainly be there and would be prepared to. I'll talk to Jeff about that. I wasn't given any direction in that. Okay. And partially because I wasn't presenting these to the board until tonight. Okay. And you know, because I'm wondering if that would allow, you know, since the press is there, we have one more leader times call, you know, opportunities to get this out to the public. And especially since our hands are kind of tight, we could really use that opportunity during council public meeting to say, Hey, you know, this is what we're envisioning with this, with this ballot initiative. And, you know, to have that opportunity for the public to be able to see this without us really going into, you know, I know the vampire law and any kind of crossing the line on that respect in that regard. So using, you know, this public opportunity to be able to share what what could be if we voted yes on this on this ballot initiative. Yeah. I mean, I would welcome the opportunity to do that. Okay. I'll, I'll ask internally how that works. Yeah. If I have the opportunity to do that. And I think in any one of the ballot initiatives, you know, I think that's a great opportunity to be able to share. So yeah, you know, let me know if you feel like, okay, maybe Susie, you know, can you send an email as well? Yeah, I can do that. I mean, I have to. Okay. Thank you. Sure. Thanks, Susie. That seems like a very strong suggestion. Anything else that you have in terms of this agenda item? No, those, those are the two, you know, we've kind of been intertwined, but the language and then these were goals to share. Well, I'm really excited to see this on there as a separate ballot item. Any other board comments on this agenda item? Well, let's go ahead and report then. One last thing actually, John, thank you for the summary of the last City Council meeting that you sent to us afterwards. That was nice. Oh, sure. That update was nice to hear. All right. Well, let's go ahead and move on to action plan update. So I'll stay on here. So I think at the last meeting, I share our dashboard of the action plan that we created kind of towards the beginning of the year, but not quite. So this is to show where we're at. I actually changed this again into a new platform because I realized the one I had, which was a free version, didn't give me enough flexibility. So I switched it up again. So now I have something I can work with a little bit better. It gives you in the us, everybody a little bit, I think a better view of where we are at with certain things. I'm not going to talk through everything, but I want to address some things that either have been updated or some kind of status of where we are with our action plan. So one of them is, I don't remember if it's where it was in the status, but actually let me go to the table because I don't know where it was in security. So in patient and staff security, we have the security cameras. So just an update on that, they were installing some of these cameras again just last week and testing some of you. So I feel like this project is very near in conclusion where we can test those new cameras and some updated views that we can ask for as a part of this project. So a little bit more of a status on that. And then I want to jump back to the board here because I created a new status on hold because there's things that I'm moving on answers for. So they're not necessarily in progress. The access to the staff areas would be badged access to that as well as the staff elevator. We're still waiting on quotes. They have to replace the double doors that go into the admin area in order to do this. And they have to also tell me that the staff elevator is capable of being badged, which they think it is, but I haven't heard back. So it's kind of on hold in that sense. The EDI training for staff somewhat uphold in the sense that the leadership team will be meeting with members of the equity team and city manager and the assistant city manager later in September. And that's supposed to be more or less a kickoff into future trainings with all library staff on equity, diversity and inclusion, which is something we wanted to do all year. So it's on hold in that sense. But once we get to that meeting, and then we'll see what's coming up, whether we'll complete that in a year, we'll see, but if we get started, we'll get started. So the shelving project in children and team, I found and hired a consultant to help with that. They came and met with myself and I had children and talked about some ideas and things we want to do there. Basically a very old shelving in children's, it needs to be replaced. It's been on our project for the last few years to do. So we're going to basically clear up all the shelving there and get new shelving big projects. And hopefully we'll open up some space. We're also hoping to make it somewhat flexible by putting some or all of this new shelving on casters so we can be a little more vulnerable of how we use our children's space. So I'm waiting to hear back on the consultants on that. I agreed on their proposal. I imagine what's going on now is they're looking at vendors and different shelving components they want to propose that. The leading of juvenile nonfiction, which is a big component to the shelving project because it's going to allow us to get basically rid of a lot of old materials that are just taking up space. The person that was in charge of that is retired in her last days next week or this week actually. So we're transferring that to somebody else. So I kind of put her on a hold in the moment. I mean, it still has to get done, obviously, but I'm not sure who's going to take that on in her absence. And then the school district, this has been going on before I got here of trying to have student ideas functions library cards. I've done this before. Previous jobs, it's always a challenge more so from the school district side because there's so many student privacy things that we have to work with. Also just capacity of people in school districts. We have teams of people. We're in Marma. So we have an entire second IT staff to help with the technology behind it. Which is true that I'm finding here, which has been true everywhere else I've been in the school district doesn't have the same level of that. So people are overwhelmed and have too many things to do. And it's hard to find time to devote to how can we share data and anonymize it and make sure they can have ideas. They've done some testing before and worked. So we're just kind of waiting on some school district people to get back to us on some other schools that we can test with. And then the meeting rooms, the big meeting rooms, we will open up to the public in September. Sometimes we probably live in the middle of September. Tracy and I, mostly Tracy have been solidifying the policy behind the meeting rooms. We, you know, I think as many know they were available to the public a number of years ago.  But when we open back up here, the meeting room wasn't open back up. Larger because our own program took over. So we have plenty of hours in the day where it can be open. So we're just, we're just finalizing that policy. We'll have that back over to the public in September. And you've been asked about it a lot. You just, I didn't realize it wasn't back open. Do you just kind of look at what the other city buildings do as a kind of a, a guide needs? More so other public library policies regarding not so much within the city. Yeah. And we had a policy before. It's just that it was outdated. And we also have technology behind it that helps us imagine much better before it was all kind of paper cookings. So we're in a much better spot. That technology we use already for our study rooms and for this room that we have been making available to the public web since April. Yeah. Except for when we have this area shut down. But anyway, different, different public. So that's, we're looking forward to that and getting that back out to the public. So computer classes, which is on here somewhere, I think, I don't know if I have it as completed or still in progress, but that was one of our goals this year was to start to having various computer and technology classes for the public. We started those in July. We do two a month, the second and fourth two days. The first two that we have had had an attendance of 12 or above, which is good. The level holds 20. So good turnout so far. So we'll keep doing those. We're talking with another outside agency to collaborate and they would come in and teach some of these technology classes in Spanish. We always have someone on staff in Spanish for our own classes, but these would be specifically for Spanish computer classes. I think that's how it works. No, it's somebody else. Yeah. And then the last thing, which is also on here in progress, so we've wanted to do a library history exhibit here like a timeline. So we met one of my staff members who works in reference in library school she focused on archives. So she has a little bit of knowledge of this, plus we're working closely with Museum, of course, and we just met with them last week to talk about what we'll probably do up here on the first floor. It would be a wall display. It's mostly photos and some clippings to kind of give from beginning to current on library. And they asked me when I would want it done. I said, well, you know, before November 7th would be awesome. That is going to be my question. Future with the library. Exactly, right. We'll have the exhibit and have the present future. It's all there. So yeah, we'll see what we can do. You know, some of that has dependencies on ordering materials and museum staffs committed. I don't think it's a huge exhibit, you know, considering the kind of things they do in the music field. This is not overwhelming. I don't think for them. So those are my updates on the action. Thanks, I'm so glad that that timing of that exhibit might work out. I hope, yeah. I think it'd be so nice to talk about this building and context of the population size when built. I guess I have two other questions. I'm sure others do as well. And one I just forgot. This is my pretty curiosity and probably just shows my ignorance of public libraries, but do you all have this separate, is there a collection development department or team, or do individual librarians in adult services or children's services do the collection? In this library, that's how it's done. So there are selectors within the adult services team. There are selectors within the children and team team. And they do their own ordering. So there's not a collection development department per se. We'll see how that looks in the future. If we have a multi-range system, it might make more sense to centralize that in a way than we do now where it's a control-managed department, but that's always off. Another question which I didn't remember is, would you mind sharing the meeting room policy with this group that you could be next for us to know? And I guess along with that, is there a question? I'm sure these are somewhere front-facing as well. If you want to mind sharing the collection development and display policy, I think it would just be nice for us to have that whole picture. Yeah. So the collection development policy and the display program policy are both on the website. Those are the only two we have that are publicly available at Goldman, which is not intentional, which is those are the ones that we've had ready. The meeting room policy will be up there once we have it ready, but we can share it with the board before that. Yeah, once it's finalized, you can also share it. It's very similar to what's on the website right now with the conference room policy. It's going to be a little bit different for the other members. It's just some differences because it's bigger and has occasion over this. And technology. We also, it's in the action plan too, but there's a team that's working on finalizing the computer use policy, which we also are back in here that will also be publicly available once it's finished. Any questions or comments regarding the action plan? Where are the policies on the website just so that I can look at them here? What, you're having trouble navigating the website? Sorry. I know you said a lot of jazz. It's in the address, which is at the top, about the library, very top. Oh, you're there, just scroll down. There's the collection development policy. And there is also the action plan in case you're still catching up on as a new member. We are our communication, we have mostly a dedicated person for marketing communications for the library, about 90% of them express. She's not completely redesigned the website, but making a lot of improvements. And there's some things that are to help with navigation that I think will go a long way. Awesome. Okay. Other comments or questions? Okay. Well, thanks, Sean, for that update. I think that's really helpful for us to get any of the scope of what you all are working on. Yeah. Let's move on then to your reports and information items. And so I don't have much that's specifically to the director report, but I did want to tell you, if you didn't see it, depending on where you came in tonight, for those of you that are here, our new outside book drop arrived today. It's all wrapped up. Yes, on the present. So this library for a number of years has wanted a book drop on the outside, on the west side of the library. We have five on the east side and zero on the west side, which is sort of like the grand entrance, right? It's the plaza. So we finally have it. I am hopeful that the facilities team will have time tomorrow to unpack that and install it. You know, it gets mounted in there. Who's going to do wear it sitting down? It's where right there. That was the one spot I was allowed to have. Oh, you didn't have free reign? No, no. Okay. No. It's limited, right? I mean, I didn't know this until I asked the question. But a lot of the plaza, at a certain point, you can tell by the texture of it, that part has heated coils underneath. Oh, I didn't know that. And so in the weather, if you don't know this on that side, there's other areas in the city in the civic center that have the same thing. So that it keeps it dry to a certain point. Right. So we can't drill into that. Ideally, it would have been up there closer to the doorway, particularly for staff. The other thought was to have it more on the street side so that people could do driving. We have that on the east side. But it was not going to work here on this side. There were too many complications. So then we started looking where on the plaza could go. And it was pretty much right there by the bike racks. It's still not a bad location for it. And having something there is better than coming. So the director of it, that's my biggest thing. I guess the only question I have is just the action plan, just maybe realize we haven't checked in in a while. Any security issues or any support that this board can provide in terms of communicating the need for anything security related? I don't think so. Yeah, there's really nothing beyond what the board has already done, which is certainly supported the need for secure areas for staff and getting behind us on that. So that's, I mean, that carries a lot. Okay, great. I think that's always incredibly important. So we tried it three few months after we got that. Any other questions, comments for John? Let's move on. Friends of the Library is on. Again, it's like the timing of the meetings are off. So I feel like I'm always in one of the meetings where I feel like my information is old from the other meeting. But I know that the friends are, they're completely gearing up for the September book sales start September 20th in the process of getting flyers printed and distributed in various places. They order new reusable bags that will be exclusively available for the book sales so that we don't have to quibble and, you know, I don't know, is it $5 for this size bag $5 for this size bag, you know, so it's just one bag $5 it's branded with friends logo on it and fill it up. Beyond that, they're also really kind of waiting to hear from John or, you know, what they can do to support the ballot initiative. And that's tricky, there are filo on seat three, there are some restrictions to their ability to get involved with advocating or lobbying for legislation, but we'll kind of I'm trying to help them sift through some of the jargon and legalese that's out there because I sense that ultimately what they want to do is talk to people. They want to write something through the paper, they want to give public commentary, they want to sit in the lobby and educate people, you know, ask me about what a new library branch could be like or something like that. And there's just all of this language about having to do with fundraising and this, you know, things that I just don't think this group is really going to get in, so we're trying to figure out how can we in a nonpartisan way just equip the public or at least start with the friends or members with information and kind of just start to drum up some excitement around the future of the library, whatever that means. It's just time with the election and the ballot initiative, you know, people can make the decisions that they need to make, but to have that potential be front and center in people's minds at that same time would be something I think would win the press. That sounds nice. Do you think that the council meeting tomorrow would be of interest to that group? I can put the call out. I feel really guilty that this would now be like the third time that I was saying like, hey, it was around tomorrow night, but to come and give a heartfelt testimony is quite a library. And that might not, it really was a genuine question rather than a suggestion because I'm not sure if that would be of interest or not to that group. It would be, and I don't know how many people would be available, but I think that would be attention is there and I'd love to give a little bit more of the time. But maybe we'll do a little bit of that on Wednesday night. Yeah, it's one of the next months meeting is, and it is on the agenda to discuss, you know, what can we do? Can we talk to that? How far advanced are they in their process? Months and months, there is a conservative effort to get even better and plan them out even in the year. So I believe that what will probably happen is for 2024, they will decide on those dates, they're striving to do that. Because what I was going to suggest, and I don't know if they are looking to like kind of expand, who knows about the book sales, but they are looking for expansion. You have to plan it pretty far in advance, but the go catalog certainly, or not deals on wheels, puts out a newsletter, there's a lot of like client oriented newsletters amongst non-profits. But then also the go catalog, the deadlines for the go catalog are ridiculously far in advance though. That's an aspiration that's something to strive for. I saw at the last sale, I saw a bookmark that the friends had made that had the rest of the sale dates on it. And that felt like progress, that was different. And then they're trying to reanimate their social media presence with something I'm helping them with, and he did getting those events on Facebook months in advance. Because I know that that's a question that the friends get constantly is once the next sale, oh I'm not going to be in town for this one, once the next sale. So to have that cycle because they're seasonal, and they currently don't do one in the summer. So there's a fall, a winter, and a spring, and it's about the same time. So you can look at a calendar and say, all right, barring an act of God, this is going to be the day. Let's just slap it on a flyer and put it out there because it's not just the go catalogue, it's, you know, recommend you could even carry it. Yeah, I mean, three months out is about like the cutoff for a lot of print publications, you know, even like the Boulder area or Longmont magazine or any of those calendars that will appear. So 2024. That's a little too long. Post-pandemic expansion. Well, yeah, the right now word of mouth is the number one best most effective tool for those sales among educators among booksellers. Yeah, all kinds of people come out for those sales, and I look forward to the next one. So I guess two comments, and I'm sure that this is already planned, but I imagine the friends that also appreciate seeing the renderings. And also thank you to Jimmy for jumping in polaroidly into this role as a new board member in the French days on, as much appreciated. Other questions or comments? Okay, let's move on. Susie, to the console. Well, yeah, I was going to bring up that we're hearing the ballot initiatives on second reading, so I already spoke to that. Yeah, so even if it's, you know, if you all can't attend, if there's other people in your networks who are passionate about this, you know, definitely have them come and speak or show their support. You know, and going back, I think Jamie would be opportunity for friends to get involved. They could possibly write letters to the editor yes, or the Times call, the TC line in the Times call. I know it's shorter, but then they don't have to necessarily put their name to it, even if they want to go to the TC line. I don't know how many words it permits, but it's a lot shorter than your regular updates. The other thing I wanted to bring to your attention was, is that in September the 15th, it's a Friday from 10 to 11, the museum is launching their capital campaign for their expansion. One of the things that we did to kind of concise the ballot initiatives, you know, in hope of having success in the passing was to kind of move the museum piece off of it, and they, the board moved forward in supporting a capital campaign. So one of the things that, you know, I thought as a community, we can rally and support the museum on that effort. So that kickoff will be at the museum courtyard from 10 to 11, but definitely keep an eye on the website and let folks know that they can donate to that as well. And one of the things, the last Thursday I, and the liaison to the neighborhood groups leadership association, the NGLA, and something that's come up, I've received a lot of emails and concerns about was the underpass under Boston Bridge. So as you know, the flood recovery, the September will be 10 years. There, you know, we were acquiring federal, federal monies for the RSVP, so the resilient same brain project through the Army, Army Corps. So yeah, so the United States Army Corps of Engineers acquiring that federal funding, there were a lot of delays, but they've started doing renovations under the bridge, so that trailway is close to pedestrians and cyclists. So that's over by Lentenbury, near, I think it's Rogers Grove. So, and that is expected to not be completed until the summer 2025. Oh, yeah. So, you know, I've been in contact with Bill Greenwald for transportation and Junang Stett from Public Works, you know, trying to make sure that we get alternate routes and detours for pedestrians and people who are dependent on bicycles as primary sources of transportation. So really making sure that we have that out to the public. So something, you know, you can, you know, spread, help spread the word on is they can even look up on the website to search Boston Avenue Bridge replacement and it'll have the details on there as well as detour routes. So that might be, it's not really library related, but it is permanent information in our community. So I wanted to get that out there. And I don't know if you had any questions for me is that's crazy because that other section of the bike path has been closed for years and years too. Yes. So a lot of it we're dependent on and what I was learning is federal funding, getting that those funds allocated and then doing the, you know, meeting those timelines for contracting individuals, like there were a lot of moving parts and trying to get it all coincide together. Yeah. And we had last, was it last year or the year before we passed the expansion so that RSVP to expand beyond over to for that for that to be done. And it's just, it's taken a lot longer, but we, but we didn't want it and anticipated it to be so. Thanks, Susie. Sure. And that's all I have. It's very short. Questions or comments for Susie? All right. Well, moving on. Our next agenda item is library profession news and MP. This is a standing agenda item that it's just John, of course, but the rest of us in different capacities pay attention to the greater library world. So if anyone is writing the interesting or has any updates, how would be the time to share? I don't have anything new or there's been a few somewhat sad news items related to a public library and being fired in Wyoming. Some schools in Texas taking libraries out of the East Indian libraries out of that school district. And so that actually the library in Wyoming made me think that it was probably good for this board to understand our clutch development policies, like display policies and so on. But otherwise, I don't have any large news items on that one. John, I don't know if you have any, thank you very much. One thing maybe that if you're not aware of the board should be aware. The new American Library Association president, and that changes you. The person that was elected last year, now they took office in July, and the person, once the term started, well, actually it was last year, I think, on their own personal Twitter account, celebrating the fact that they were elected alien president and they made the statement of how wonderful it is, and this is not so much of a direct quote, but you get the idea. How wonderful it is that an LGBTQ plus Marxist is now president of ALA. And this has been getting a lot of attention. I haven't seen too much in Colorado, but I can tell you the state of Montana basically withdrew their association with ALA because of it. There's other states doing similar things. In cities. In cities, it's just all over the game. I can tell you that I, one of the times I wasn't here, I received a fairly lengthy email from a citizen concerned about that, that this person was identifying themselves in the Marxist, and what does the city spend for membership in ALA? Things like that. Anyway, it's something for people to know. I think that the president that said that has since written about that, who says those of you who still represent what ALA does at all, ALA has certain missions. In some ways, explaining themselves, not necessarily apologizing, but it's just something to know, and since I did receive a call from it, I think you're proportioned, that's kind of out there. With the bad stuff that goes on in library land like censorship, and all the things like that, and now this is sort of a new thing, or the latest addition to something that someone's unhappy about. But in general, in Colorado, I would say long line, there's not a whole lot of trouble that I've experienced as a director. I mean, I've had a couple of book or display challenges since I've been here, certainly in June during private life, I had some citizen opinions on things that we were doing. And this person also shared that too, since this person was also identifying as LGBTQ plus, they spent half of their message talking about Marxism, and the other half talking about LGBTQ, wondering what we were doing to protect our children. So those are some conversations that go on, but not kind of what, I think long line so far has been pretty, a reasonable community, at least from my experience, but they're there, and so it's something to be aware of. And certainly my standpoint is standing behind our collection development policy to your point, and our display and program policy, and everything that ALA does stand for that we also follow, such as intellectual freedom, and we are here to serve all the blah, blah, blah, and I will stand behind that. And so is my staff. Other comments, or I don't speak, I want to bring up, which I really appreciate that, that is a really great point for the sports head, to understand what's going on with that tweet, the reaction to it. Wait, library board comments. I can just have a quick, just for fun, share. I was in Indianapolis last week at a national legislative conference, so kind of outside of the conference, I went to the Indiana State Library, and just like walked around, the folks having done there before, they have a lot of really big murals and stained glass, and it's a pretty neat place to just kind of walk around and see their collections. But one of the things I saw while I was leaving at the front desk, because they have like an Indiana State Library passport, and so you can kind of like download it on your phone, using a QR code, and then they, you can like bring up photos. I didn't download the pullout, but just from the one page, you can kind of learn about each of the libraries and the different services they have, and it just looked really cool and interactive, and so it seems like it'd be a multi-library effort, but maybe it could be done on a smaller scale, or, but it just seems like a cool way to kind of interact and learn about libraries, so. That's really cool. I spent some time in Indianapolis and in Indiana sometimes personally, so It's also great to know about the State Library coming here today. I love that. That sounds like a good service project for one of my students. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can email you the flyer cup. I have library board comments. We're in our next schedule, September 18th, and at this point at 8.31, you go ahead and enjoy the meeting.