Welcome to Toffy TV. This video is sponsored by One Football. One Football's app makes it easy to keep up to date with transfer news, scores and stats all in one place to download the One Football app. Simply click on the description, the link in the description below. This is part two of why Everton's business matters. I enjoyed it so much last week, but we had limited time so we've got the lads backing to carry on on. We've had loads of really positive comments and some of your questions which we'll be getting through in a bit. We were talking about the kit sponsors and we've just got some of the figures up here, just so we know really where we are I suppose. And you've got when they were renewed as well. This is what they're getting for this season. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a leaf frog game that goes on, that's the point. So we've got Manchester United getting £47 million a year from Chevrolet, City £45 million from Etihad. Arguably, or from their own. From Etihad, yeah. Of course they are. Honest to the UEFA. Chelsea, Epshire, Yokohome, £40 million. That's the tyres, yeah. Liverpool, £40 million, Standard Charts, extraordinary. That's amazing, that one, isn't it? Extraordinary. Arsenal, £40 million from Emirates. Have they broken it out now? Cos they've still got Emirates as a shirt sponsor. I don't think they ever break it out. So you can actually say it's £40 million for the stadium naming, can't you? But anyway, it's still a lot of money. They're getting £40 million a year job, a shirt sponsorship. Quiet. Tottenham, £35 million for AIA, is it? Yeah, sure. £35 million, so there's your top six. West Ham next? West Ham next, 10. That's crazy. That's seven. Everton, eight. Sport Pager, 9.6. Southampton. So, you know. I thought Southampton were up there. Crystal Palace in ninth. With Manbet X, £6.5 million a year. Newcastle, £488 million. £6.5 million a year. Lots of betting. £30 million, £6 million a year Southampton. Is that up? Is that up? Okay. Wolves, £5 million. Leicester. So, you know. Wolves, £5 million. Burnley, £5 million. Leicester, £4 million. Bournemouth, £4 million. Fwnn, £3 million. Cardiff, Visit Malaysia, £3 million. Wafford, £3 million. Huddersfield and Brighton, £1.5 million. So Everton are... The Cardson that have nots. Eighth, best shirt sponsorship. And I suppose that's what probably we finished eighth. We've got the eighth best sponsorship. Well, it's how we... It's how we... It's when they do for renewal, isn't it? At the end of the day. But it's how we bridge that. I suppose it... We've gone up from... I mean, I can't remember what the last shant deal, but I know it was... Sixth, isn't it? Was it six? Was it as much as six? I think it was less than six. I think it was six. I thought it was four. Cos I know the face on the signs is about one and a half. Really? It's less about Leightable there. It's about this huge chasm between 40 million to eight or nine. Well, you've got... It's not number six in this. Yeah. 35 million a year. So they're getting 25... West Ham is seventh on 10, I never know. 25 is more than the next one. The most on West Ham. That's just for the shirt. You know, man, it's just the United. That's Chevrolet. They get something else for... That's... Oh, they... They get DHL. They drop 600 million for their training kit or something or... So that's just basically on the shirt. It's want to shop again. That's just keying into... It's how we bridge. I suppose how we bridge that without... Without actually being... A team who's in the Champions League or a team who's in Europe. I know you said them quite rightly last week, the Premier League. It's massive. It's everywhere. And it's arguably more... Is it arguably more people at the Premier League than the Champions League? You just said there's six clubs there who are getting, what, 15 million pounds or more per annum. Than we get... 25. No, 25. Or more. Oh, sorry. Spurs 35. Spurs 35. So 25. Yeah, it's the least. Only four of them can get in the Champions League. Yeah, yeah. I just think that's a bogey. I don't think it's the Champions League at all. So what do you think... I think it's a mixture of... But all of these teams though, the six teams here, have been recently in the Champions League and for more than one season. But a bad example, but it's never going to happen to Man United, is it? But if one of those, say Arsenal or Totten, maybe they're more likely, don't appear in the Champions League for a couple of years, are you assuming that they'll suddenly fall off a cliff and drop back into the 10 million? I don't think they will. I think it's about how you negotiate it's how you're ready to express your brand, how you can show vision, I'm pretty damn sure Tottenham certainly used their new stadium as a marker of what's going to happen. And we don't know, do we, whether we're doing those things behind the scenes, whether we're selling a future vision. One of the things we talk about a hell of a lot on business matters really, as an undercurrent of the theme, is do we negotiate or do we do stuff where we are or where we're going to be? And when I was on Merseysad on Friday, one thing that Damian, that the red was saying, is just that, you just need to put your money down if you're talking about buying players and actually, it's almost like behaving like a top six club, isn't it, before you actually come to the league table, you are one of those. Faker to your maker? Yeah, and trying to project what's going to happen in the table here, when we get to the end of the season, how close that lot and City are and the gap to the next groove and the gap to, and so on. But there's a lot of segmentation going on in that league table now, isn't there? And maybe it's driven by money, but it shouldn't be as acute as it is. I don't think you can hold all of those six uppers, Paragon's and Merseysad on YouTube because Emirates and Etihad, they're done deals, they're in-house effectively. Emirates deal was done ages ago. Well, they've put us whilst we're... Yeah, but the best new balance, and that was a way to flood. Yeah, yeah. That was a way to do. The best sponsorship deal that you've read out there, undoubtedly, the people who've done the best deal is Liverpool. Yeah, yeah. Undoubtedly. One trophy in however long and they're getting over 40 million for the shirt from an international finance house. It's an extraordinary deal. That city deal is clearly done and guaranteed and underwritten and Chelsea are Chelsea. And Man United are the biggest team in England, whatever anyone says. There's the world probably. Well, Real Madrid might argue. Yeah, but that's the point. It's an argument, isn't it? There is no reason why we should be getting a quarter, a third to a quarter of what Spurs are. OK. And let us not forget that Manchester City 10, 12 years ago, we're playing Dlingon. Oh, of course. Yeah, of course. So either you've got ambition or you haven't. And if you're just doing it on where we are now, then we might just go, all sport players are next time. Let's see. You know, we've got ABC for 12 million. Fantastic. You know what would be really interesting?  Yeah, yeah. You know, certainly. Yeah, yeah. So that's been announced and there's a single agenda item at the moment, which just talks about basically the forms of the business since the last general meeting. That's OK. Now, hopefully that's a catchall because that'll allow, you know, they've been busy on the people's project, loads of other things, I suppose. And between now and then, I guess, Denise and her team and no doubt Bill and Farhad and the other board members will conclude what they're going to talk about on that evening. One of the things that they need to talk about is the future. Not just what's happened in the last year. What the potential is. OK. And it'd be really interesting to hear like the guy accountable like Sasha Ryazantsef and say, so where are we in this pecan order of sponsorship? Yeah. What can we do? What is the art of the possible?  My fear. Until you're regularly in the Champions League, then the negotiating chips aren't as strong as they can be. My fear is that we do just kind of go the six of the six we're doing all right. So let's just, we've got to kind of take a lot and just hope that's... That would be far more ambitious than that. No, that's what I'm saying. That's what I fear I have as an Edithonian as someone who's looking and going well. You know, there'll be, listen, there's a generation of Edithonians who whose experiences of being an Edithonian is just being in the top half of the Premier League.  It was great because we had four or five years where it was terrible. Where all that bit of older that... I'm not going to say bit of older than me. Like, you know what? I say much. No idea. Where all that bit of older that we've seen us successful, we've seen us be the best team in the land and we've seen us be competitive even without being the best team in the land and whether you want to take that late 70s. You know, that was a baby. I don't even remember that. Like, and then winning it in 80s and even late 80s we were still fourth and then we won the FA Cup in 95 and we were sixth and we were... we were a couple of pieces when then David Moyes got us back there with... you know, if you looked at wage bills it was ridiculous where ever and where it concerns everybody else. So it can be bridged in different ways but what we haven't done and you know what? We didn't do this in the 80s, are we? We didn't build when we were at our strongest. We didn't build when we were close to... You know, we had Alan Shearerre tied up and we wouldn't play 300g ram for him. Not when he went to Need Castle at Southampton. I think... I think you've been talking to my dad. Well, I did because he was that late. No, no, no, exactly. But he would say exactly the same that whenever some were at their dominance I don't mean to point my finger but when we were brilliant in the late 70s and the mid 80s the club was characterised by one thing and I'm scared that the same thing's happening again and that is cowardice in the boardroom. Okay? Cowardice and a lack of ambition in the boardroom. We should have kicked on.  It was difficult but there were still leagues to win and Howard went away and Linnaker left and it all kind of died to death and it had very much a damp squip. But even in the 70s and Catherine we won the league 69-70 we didn't build from there. We didn't go on and kick on and dominate. Well late 70s we finished when we would run us up 70. Well we were up in the top four where it was 70-9. Lee was most unfortunate. Gordon Lee had a couple of seasons. We lost league. So we're talking about bits but even after Heizel. But we haven't capitalised on the opportunity is my point on this. We were at the forefront one of the forefront of the Premier League. We won at the five teams that made the Premier League happen. Of course. And then instead of pushing the boxers. We won at those selfish clubs that won the case.  Dreadful. And it was my only term back then mate. That's what she said. For the big five used to be Arsenal, Tottenham, Everton, Liverpool, Man United. That was it. That was it. That was what he won in it. That was what he won in it. That was what he won in it. That was what he won in it. That was what he won in it. Chelsea were up and down like a bright 19. Chelsea were still having electric fences around. They had electric fences and getting 9,000. So that shows you how quick it can change in terms. And when I say quick over a period of history obviously quick 20 years. But I mean it can't change. But even like I said even with Moise. Even at that time with the Premier League start. Even at time with Joe Royal we won the FA Cup. We had Andréa Cincels. Cos we were at the team. The gap wasn't ridiculous. Stan Collymor was the most expensive player in the country or the top striker. And he just picked Liverpool because of us. Because they were probably. In the Sunday papers he was coming to us. He said himself. It was literally he didn't know what to do. So that's 96. It was. We were going for the number one centre forward. He was available. 96.  See what you're describing right is and Roger's chose to use the word cowardice. Yeah. I just think it's an inability to make decisions. You know. It's cautious. It's. Not backing you. Yeah. Cautious is just a diluted version of Cameron. Okay. But it's like sometimes you have to just be intuitive. Don't you? You do it in your day job. You think I'm going to do it. Yeah. And I'll stand by the consequences. You know. You've got to. I mean Gomez might be one of those come January. We're talking to Barker and all that. Barsa. We're talking to Barker and all that. And. You're going back again. Yeah. And they go 50 million. Then he's yours. And we'll go. That's a lot of money. You know. And then that shower will turn up and think oh we'll have him. Yeah. And that's all about the salesmanship. And I don't mean in the you know the the bloody double glazing salesman's job but high value selling is all about vision. It's all about convincing the other party. But this is what they want to do. Now what we've got now today is a manager and a director of football who appear to be able to encourage players to join this football club who you could easily see in the past might not have. Yeah. I mean we would not have got Yeri Mino exactly right. I don't tell me the bar. So they're doing so they're doing their bit and they need therefore to be backed by this entity called the board. Yeah. And that board needs a strong leader whether that's Denise I don't know because we don't see what goes on behind the scenes. Who dominates conversation around that table. So that when there's a bit of wavering they just go no we need to do this. But what about financial no forget that financial fair play. That just becomes a challenge. We've just spent 50 million quid on Andre Gomez. The forecast for financial fair play two years out doesn't look healthy. We need to fix that. How do we fix it? We've used costs in other places. We shall increase revenues. We make it not an issue. And he'll contribute to the on-field performance and the off-field by people like yourself. John brings up the board there right. And this is where he and I would have a slight difference in opinion in terms of leadership and in terms of making these decisions because the board it's a group of individuals very few of whom very few of whom own any equity. The leader isn't Bill. The leader isn't Denise. The leader isn't Sasha. The leader isn't Dr Keith Harris. Either the leaders far had machinery has to be period and a story may not go to the board meetings but he sends a message. He's invested 200 250 million. He's got to be the guy setting the strategy and setting the direction and showing the ambition. And my concern is that for the next three or four years we are going to be kicking the ambition can down the road and satisfying the fans with the prospects of a new stadium. And that's four years away five years away. Okay. We need to be investing now in on the pitch assets. We need to be improving our off our non match day income so commercial sponsorship partnership and all of those good things. We need to be doing that at the same time where John and I would agree is that the board are not able to do things not able to multitask. Okay. So they do things in series one after another. They can't focus on more than one thing at a time. And that's really very very inefficient math. Yeah. But leadership I don't see I mean Denise is fantastic in terms of PR. She's got great background in the community and she supposedly understands Everton getting Everton whatever that may or may not mean. But she isn't with all respect to her. She's not David Dean. No. And if David Dean was our chief David Dean is not David Dean anymore. But someone who is steeped in football and knows how football works and consider around the boardroom table and say we're going to do that. But all I would say is let me just because I want to say I think in terms of buying the players I think those days are gone. I think of saying 50 million now. I think far that just goes yeah we'll do it because we've done it be shown if you've done a bit get sick it's and we've done a bit if you've done a bit with the others and if you've gone there so wouldn't you. The man had to shed the other day if he's 80 million then 80 million sometimes. Sorry sorry I'm not talking about affordability I'm talking about we think we can get him for 40 and they and they say 50 and you bit like they did with Van Dyne you know. They just pay way over the odds because they knew. Because you have to. And to say that the goalie That's because he's the best player in the world. Oh yeah maybe the goalie is the best player in the world. Yeah but they just knew they were over a barrel. They had a central defence of the problem. So they pay way over the odds for the guy they wanted. They've paid way over the odds probably even more so for the goalkeeper though. The whole goalkeeper cost a third of that one. You know and so on. I think you've been harsh. I don't I've talked about Denise of me. I don't think you need to be I don't know where the Dean was steeped in in football. We've got a man who still sits on the board who's steeped in more football than anyone who's there already which is Bill but the average fan would go Bill you know something. Sometimes you need a new broom sometimes you need someone who's just got a bit of fire in the belly and a bit of objectivity but they need authority. But what about? I'm going to stack that on one now because if we really really believe that we pay and clearly the cost of our board has gone through the roof in recent years with Harris around sure. Ryzan's have arrived and so on I think probably with Woods at the moment the only board member who's got any shares at all is Bill. Yes yes. So they're all employees in that sense. Of course yes. If we're choosing to have all those guys the skills they bring whether we agree about them or not you know about commerciality from Sasha and stadium building from Keith and how to run a business from Denise and so on. And they're all just twiddling their thumbs going and we'll let's ask Farhad. Farhad Meshiri cannot make every single decision just because he has to be the largest shareholder. I'm not saying he should John but he's got to set the direction of travel and demonstrate the ambition. No the board sets the direction of travel the board sets it. No no the owner does. The owner absolutely does because if the owner's not going to put the money in we're not going to go anywhere. Well no. It looks surely well well well one minute. The owner the owner says he wants this business to be self sufficient. That means you've got your shirt sponsors there there. Well let's do the commercial performance let's do the match day income let's do the hospitals all those things need to improve Of course they do! Okay the board cannot have an excuse to say well they can't improve because Farhad won't build as a new towns發 stadium on the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey. They have to have a strategy mor llawer o'r plan, mor llawer o'r plan B. Dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud, dwi'n dweud ymddangos, o'n dweud yma yn y ddwyddiad? Dwi wedi ddweud, o'n ddod yn ei ddod yn digwydd, o'n ddod yn ddod yn ei ddod yn lliwgwgwch, a ond. Mishiri gweithio i gweithio i'r gweithio i'r wyf yn lleidio'r gweithi o'n ddod i'r cyflog hynny wedi'i gweithi, Don't say you can't. Because if he did, he'd be on the board. No one's saying he wants to do that. So he's put his nominees on the board, and I have a fundamental opposition to saying that one single individual who is not involved in the running of the football club day-to-day should set the strategy, should decide what happens, should ye and they own choice of managers, players, whatever it might be. Am nodwyd am yr ddogfodd, pan ond sydd yn gallu ychydig yn ynhaod dymi, ac os angen, e wedi typkyn gynnig o själv fiwyddd o'r gwybod a oedd keyboard, pan gwahan trains ei G witchesg feddygede, a lodeg yn gallu ddweud y dgwybod a'u eu gwybod. Ac nid tymeth y gallai fyrdd clr sydd gen i gynnig o fod chyeilatio y cyhappylliant. donc gyda nid o fydd rainfall mewn teimlog a di g introduce sy'n ni nhw.�wydd i chi fel y cyllido yn gwybodaeth cael eu llei yn gennym ond, a di gallu eisiau bod y bryde am gwybodaeth hyn. Naddw'n ddweud o'i ddogfodd, yn gweithio'n rhanosydd a wnaedol i fyfr i ddymaru ar ymarfer? Pan oedd angen a chymlu hyn mae'n meddwl yn yma yn ei hunud. Fel ddyn nhw'n dda i gydech chi wedi bod yn gallu gilydd o'r awr ac wrtho a llwyddo, Ond roedd yma, ond nid gweld am fyddai bod yn gweithio. Felly mae'n meddwl i'r hyn o'r lerdd. Nid yw'r hyn o'r arfer? Caerdwch i'n meddwl i'r gilydd, John, mae'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r hyn, Felly dyna fyddai gydym addysg ddau i nid ei ddaf yn ein taxes iawn i chi'n ddau i'n dda i'n dda i'n ddau i'n dda. Dyna ti'n dda! Mae'r gael y board yn eich POC yn y llif, mae ddau iawn i ddau! D heavyweight, mae'n ddau i ddau o ddau o assistance sydd wedi'u ddau i ddau o ddau! Y board ddau i ddau o ddau o ddau! Dwi'n yw dydweillie ac mae'n defnyddio'r gwnsfynciosol, gofyn y board? Rydyn chi'n ddau o ddau o ddau o ddau? What do you mean by target, personal target? Is she got a target? What is she targeting now? What kind of target do you want Denise to have? I'm asking you who would set the target for her. The board. The board would set the target for the Chief Executive, rather than the Channel would set it for her. Well he's not exactly if German per se is he. We could talk about this for hours. No, well let's do it. I'm going to say because that's the question. Bill's not there every day either. Baxendale sets targets, she tells Sasha what he needs to do from a commercial perspective, she tells Woods, just turn up on board meetings, and so on. Harris from the timetable for the new stadium. But if you operate as a functional board, then there is a hierarchy of the sense that I suppose technically all the board except Bill reports to Denise and Woods because he's just almost like a non-exec these days, isn't he really? But they have to do it together because you've been there, you've set budgets, you've been getting a task by your boss and said that's impossible, or how does the normal budget process start, you go to the individual functional heads and say yes to the sales guy, right? Right, Bax, you're the sales director or whatever, you tell me how many orders you're going to bring in next year, and you tell me from a phasing point of view when they're going to land so that we can turn that into a run rate revenue for the business. And I'm the chief executive, say, and I get a life mate, I want it to be 20% higher than that, and I want it to be six months earlier. That's what happens. Now I don't think Farhad's going to be the man having that dialogue, so if you ask the question, it's certainly not Bill, so it's Denise. So the chief executive would just hold us in general, which by definition means with the majority shareholder, Farhad and Sherry. And that's what the general meetings about? The targets for everyone, he or she would set the target for sales, perhaps for marketing if you had one, technology if you had one, CTO and an FD, and he or she would be responsible for them collectively and would probably wear the overall target of the company's profitability or turnover or whatever that strategic. And the board meeting is run by the chairman and the chief executive kind of presents the chief execs report and the other reports come through. So the chief executive does need to be given some targets independently of just taking the sum of the parts. And Bill isn't going to give her those targets. The strategic direction of the business is going to be, it should be done, chairman and chief executive reported to shareholders. We have a 70-80% majority shareholder. So he needs to agree, what's our target? Our target is to get into Europe. And remember, we're kind of three years behind. We're now back where we thought we'd be at the end of the first season, aren't we? We're playing some decent football. We've got some nice players. We're doing all right. We're sixth, seventh in the league and we're challenging. Let's forget about what happened under Cooman and let's forget the season under Allodais. So those are where the targets should come from.  What do you mean by responsible for everyone? Well, she can't be responsible for all of the other business, all of the other business units. Inclus in the name, chief executive, you know, the chief of the executives and the executives are the people of the functional responsibilities. And I disagree with what you just said. She has, you know, an overall responsibility for all of those. So a job on a day-to-day basis is to agree with the sales director what his targets are and make sure he achieves them. If he doesn't achieve it, swap him out and bring someone who can and you go across the thing. At some stage, the shareholders, if this was a PLC, would say, we've lost confidence in the chief executive's ability to deliver what we expect to be delivered, either A, by second targets that are too low, which is going to go down very well, really. Or by second targets that are not achieved. Now, we have a fortunate situation, many football clubs do, that the shareholders tends to be a single individual who can pick up the phone and say, what's going on? We also need to be careful that we don't mix or put financial performance, which is fundamentally what we're talking about right now, and how that transports or transfers into being on-field performance. And we know there's a direct link, because the more money you make over here, the likely others, the more successful you're going to be over here. Because then we'll get into the director of football, who's given him targets, and who's given the manager targets. And he doesn't sit on the board, and he should be on the board. And we, hey, high-five, we can totally agree on that. I've got that. But I think part that the issue now is, I think Bill behaves to a degree like an executive chairman. So Denise probably thinks she works for Bill, right? And therefore there's some, if you like, dialogue that goes on there, approval almost. And then there's dialogue that goes on between Bill and Farhad. It would not at all surprise me if there's very little dialogue directly between Farhad and Denise. And that's my problem. So you get into all that then. Then you've got people like Sasha Ryzansev, who's obviously new to football in this sense of a mind of a football club.  John Woods, who is a passenger broadly, I guess, but he has got loads of experience because he's been sitting at board level for whatever it is, 20 odd years. And Bill, who's got all them contacts and stuff. So whether they've stormed to perform as a board, I don't know. But at the end of the day, if you're going to carry the badge of Chief Exec, what goes with it is the accountability. I'm not using accountability, two things, and then we need to move on because it's probably boring. Two things, you've proved my point because the fact that you know and you're better connected than me that there isn't much of a dialogue between Denise and Farhad. I said I wouldn't be surprised. And I'm not surprised either. And I think that that equals dysfunctional because he owns 80% of the business and the chairman is just an executive chairman very loose. Denise needs to be talking to Farhad more, I think you'd agree, right? Good. Secondly, what I said was Denise can't do all those jobs, finance, sales, marketing, et cetera. We've got a finance director, we've got a sales director, we've got, we've got, we've got. She manages them. Yes, but she has to also get strategic direction from elsewhere. She doesn't just impose her strategy.  It's not Denise's strategy. It's the strategy of the board signed off one hopes by the majority shareholder. And if they're not doing it that way. Well, that's where we disagree. The strategy of the board. The board are following orders from Farhad. That's what I think. He thinks differently. That's fine. I'm describing what's fine. It's not to do with big corporate. It's called best practice. I'm describing what should happen. And if they're waiting for Farhad Meshiri to give them the strategy. No, they're not waiting. He's told them. You think so? I don't agree with that either then. Because none of it shows. Right. Let's move. I don't think we're going to get an agreement. But that's good because that's what it's about. We'll resolve it on the next podcast people. The whole thing is debate. That's what it's good for. Let's move on to. Again, this probably ties into the global. There's a couple of things that are linked into one. Localism. It's a big word for Amanda. It is before a game. From a time when Everton marketed themselves and quite openly marketed themselves as the Inchilla club. Almost as a stick to beat our rivals with in the city. You go look after that. We look after this, the people's club and everything else. I'll be honest, I've used it as a stick to slap them 10 years ago when we didn't have anything else to slap them with it. It was a case of all our fans are local. The majority, blah, blah, blah. I think what's happened is that... It's gone the other way too much now. It's almost like a badge that is worn, I think with this, that and the other. The reality is if we want the best practice for Everton, we want Everton to be one of the best sides in this country. We want Everton to compete in this country and in Europe. The truth is whether some people like it or not we have to become a global, a globalised club. We have to. You see it with Man City. Man City was always Everton Man City. Man City most fans in Manchester. Everton most fans in Liverpool. Man City are trying to build that global brand PSG. All of the clubs you were trying to make a run on. Things you haven't been. There's high up in there. Their leagues or how they view throughout the world. So that's surely where Everton are now because even just looking at the kit sponsors there which we've all agreed Liverpool 40 million a year from Standard Charter and we're getting nine. Playing in the same league. A few places where we played Liverpool last week. There wouldn't have been a derby if it wasn't for Everton playing on field. That's a process they started with Standard Charter 10 years ago. 7 or 8 years they've been with Standard Charter. They've been with them for a while yeah. Well they've been with them while at least for today wasn't they and things like that. All the time they've had Standard Charter we had Chang yeah. But what I'm saying is they're global rich. I've said this before and you know at the brisker board and everyone again. I go to Florida yourself with Florida then go to Disney and stuff and when I first started going there in 1996 first time ever went there. I went to Everton and said to Liverpool man United and you know you'd see them around because people just wore them. But then over time Chelsea started becoming here. Now Chelsea 10 to 1 against any other football she had. Every time I go just as I see it Chelsea and see hardly any Liverpool. I have to not say there's less Liverpool fans but Chelsea have been able to turn a club that we spoke about before with electrified fencers. 10,000 have been to Stanford Bridge when it was 11,000. Is it a question or a speech? It's a speech. So globalised, broken on the strata. Rewindy forward me but you see me just forward this bit. What's your view on that the proclism of Everton football or how it appears? Let me try and summarise. I think you're absolutely right. I think we need to be appealing to a bigger audience. My fear is that actually we're going backwards in terms of our reach deliberately now, more local. And I think we are stubbornly and joyously stubbornly, which I've said on the podcast, parochial. We talk about L4 all the time. We've just thanked, the club has just thanked the citizens, the residents of the Liverpool city region. I don't live in the Liverpool city region. I used to and there are many like me, ex-pats in all parts who come up to the game, up or down from the game, fly in, travel 400 miles to a game. I didn't get a thank you off the club. It pisses me off. You've travelled what for? 400 miles today, 400 miles last time, 400 miles to return trip on every home game. But this lad's who come up from Cornwall and there's people who come down from Scotland. So I do it out of freedom of choice. It's not sometimes it can be a real punishment. My point is a simple one that all of this lighting up the bird blue and the city's all ours is petty and it is important to have roots. But some of the greatest players and some of the greatest characters in the history of the football club weren't scousers. Whether it's Alan Ball that you want to focus on, whether it's Howard Kendall that you want to focus on. They're from the north west of England, the powerhouse of football. We can take the very best of our community and our community involvement in the work that we do. And we can broaden that out much, much more widely. And I'm concerned that we are becoming even more insular.  And where does the accent change as you go down the East Lancashire Road between Liverpool and Manchester? Where does it actually happen? Is it St Helen's? Is it Warrington John? I don't know. Who knows. But the fact of the matter is that we should have an appeal. When did your accent go? Did you never have one? I never really had one. I mean it comes out a bit. That was a little bit of a scous there. I had one and then he had one back. I don't tend to use the age. You forget you had to go to Cambridge sometimes. That's because I didn't go to Cambridge. Oxford. Thank you. Anyway, that's it. This is all the relevant. It's all the relevant. It isn't Oxford. I've been eating too much. The point is that Paul made this point on our most recent podcast. That there are thousands and thousands, if not millions of Evertonians out there who just don't yet know they're Evertonians. Because some of the values that make this club special about community, about history, tradition, heritage, fair play, triumph over adversity are values that will appeal to people other than just the gravy terrain jumpers on who are going to follow this year's league champions, whether that be City or whether it be Chelsea next year. And we can develop those brands, those brand values and working with a partner, whether it's Amazon, whether it's whoever. But we've got to be looking broader than outside the city region. And that really, really worries me for the commercial development and the growth of the revenues that we need to do in order to be able to compete on the pitch. And that worries me. How are we going to attract new fans? It's great that we've got kids in the city wearing shirts. Great. Fantastic. But when you can't even buy an Everton shirt in a sports direct anywhere in the country, you're swimming against the tide. And that parochialism is right at the heart of it. And I think there's a danger that the current messaging coming out of the football club is too parochial. You know, you go to the Emirates and they've got flags all the way round of different countries, supporters clubs all the way round inside. What have we got? Everton Island and maybe there's Everton Canada or something I've seen in the park. And there's a few flags there, but not many. These clubs, they celebrate the internationalness. They celebrate their fan base. And that's the route to success. That's the route to growth, in my opinion. I think what's... I was on one then. That was very good. Fortunately, it's one I can agree with. How I talk, so we'll move on then. John agrees. But I think that the serious point is because you can get really focused on something, can't you? And at the moment, because of the people's project, they clearly made a strategic decision to make that about the city and about the city region. And indeed about football in general before Everton, apparently. Then that really makes it really acute that this parochialism sits there. And we were talking off air, weren't we? Because you showed us that little video from the lady at Man City. Well, not Man City. It's city, isn't it? She was talking about how New York City and Manchester City. So she's the chief marketing officer of whatever the city group's called or something like that. And while you're showing, I said to you tonight, that's Marketing 101. Because what you've got, you can't just be local. You can't just be global. And marketing's all about making the consumer believe they are the only one. So it's great for the Liverpool City region to have that very, as you just called it, parochial view here. But the same parochialism has to be in the United States, but local to them. North Africa, local to them. Europe, Australia, Canada, wherever it might be. And so everybody sees, ever and through the lens, that is most sympathetic to what they want. But underpinning all that is the things Roger just said about that community spirit, about that history and so on and so forth. And I've just never heard anybody yet, I'm saying yet because I rather hope that they will, articulate what do we believe is going to be the brand value of the football club going forward. Certainly between now and the opening of Brownley Moor and hopefully beyond. Because the short termism of, which might last six months Roger, if this people's project thing being overtly parochial, might just be just that. It's a means to an end. It's about getting a planning approval. But if it's as you fear, and I'm with you in fearing it, that it's just a lack of vision and we're not going to change that. But that's a real big issue because all those shirts will stay small. The commercial income will stay small. We won't encourage people outside the region to come to this football ground. I totally agree with the both here. I remember going to, when we were doing the radio actually. The Arsenal one, sorry, is a great colour internally. It was when we were doing, me and Paddy were doing, the radio for Casey Jamie went through the talk and Robert Elstone was there and there was a pulse sheet. It might have even been in A and much of the time it was. And David, so A and A done a big thing of how we want to reach them in it, how we're stretching it out and we're trying to get through Europe and we're trying to grow. And Robert Elstone's shirt was how evidence all in the city and we've got ties to North Wales, which isn't far. And that was it, that was our reach. He sat there and we were there at the time with a Liverpool fan. He's a great lad to be fit, not many like you know. He's a great lad there but very business minded as well. And he was like, I can't believe what he's saying here. How are you going to grow if you're not, if you're not looking to do. And that was then. So the worry is that was, I think that was six years ago, I think it was 2012, 2013. So it was six years on and we're still having a similar conversation. You said something before, Rodgy, that there's a big game this weekend, not even a name, there are two teams. But people are flying in international fans and the sky are interviewing them and want their thoughts. And there's some people on social media calling them walls and laughing at them and saying, but the reality is we need evidence to be growing that area because you're absolutely right. How else do we grow? If we're already big in this city, which we are, we are, of course we are. We've got at least a 50% split. But if it's a 50% split, right? So we've got kids with evidence here. My lad's got every evidence kit. You know, we love you always. Great, brilliant throughout the city. So you would suggest that you go forward. That split would roughly continue. It might deviate how well the two teams do. But the growth's not going to get much bigger from Everton, is it? Because we're only focussing on L4, or not L4, obviously, but we're just focussing on the city. You're right how do we grow when Liverpool are looking at China and Malaysia and America and Africa and Tottenham. Only six teams are doing that same thing. If we don't start spreading our wings, we ain't going to get any bigger. So I think there's two things. The second one I'll come on to is technology. But the first point I want to make is if we know our history and you go all the way back, you go all the way back when we decided Amfield was a dump and we needed it. So this is a blessing and a curse for everybody. And we have to use it as a blessing and not a curse. But there are plenty of people in this country in which we live who don't even know that Everton are from Liverpool. Of all the rivalries that exist, and we always say ours is bigger and better than North London or Manchester or whatever, but we are the only club in a major city that doesn't bear the name of that city. Good or bad, well it could be bad but we'll start with the name Everton and I wouldn't change it for the world. In terms of the blue live bird you'll see him on here. That's our first league championship medal which we won at Amfield. But we can use that to our benefit. That Everton is South America as a team in Everton. We started Barcelona, did we? We did. Five Evertonians, hence why one at ATM and love seven miles. Look at their badge. Is that the same as Barca? It's the same as Barca. It depends where you are. Barca Barca. Back to the matter is that because we're not called Liverpool United or Liverpool City, so use it to our advantage and spread the word. How do we go out there that we have to use technology? And I have it on authority that Peter Moore is doing great stuff at Liverpool and wanting to use technology to reach out to the lady from city group. The lady from city group was talking about, they engage differently with Manchester City fans in Indonesia, both of them. Small Manchester City fans in Indonesia then there are Everton fans probably and in India and in Singapore and wherever. They have different strategies for different localities but it's pushed out using technology.  It's very annoying. But that's a concept they spread out globally. And do you know what city's end membership is? Do you know how much it costs? Absolutely. Bugger all. It's now free content. Now Everton still stick content behind a paywall. Even an Evertonian membership paywall. I mean which foot shall I shoot myself in first? It's ludicrous. We want as many fans as possible. So I'm not saying match tickets should be free and there should be levels of membership whether you're in the top balcony like me or in the lounges like him. You pay a different amount. Just checking he's paying attention. But we need to be offering free content and loads of free content out there to attract people and engage people all over the world using the brand values and using technology. I have it on authority that our response to the challenge of Peter Moore's doing it is yeah we'll hope to use some of that when we're in Bramley Moor. On five years? Yeah. Now come on we need to be doing it today. Well that's nonsense. If someone's give you that handset. He's in the Anfield Road and he's got lovely signal. Top balcony is a no-go zone. Let's get some decent wi-fi all round the stadium. Let's get some. Poor G would do. Not so that I can read my song sheet because I know the words to the song. Listen to Brazilian. He only costs 50 million and we think he's jolly splendid. That's the one I'm teaching my son. But it is interesting though and that's the point though because you've got to do segmentation of this customer base. You've got to grow the base to start with. This is what you do. You segment what you've got. You do the analytics. You figure out why people are about spending money. You see how many other people over here who are not who you can attract in. When the city do what they do and God knows how many citizens there are around the world. They end up with a million names and addresses, a million emails, a million how old are they, what the gender is, where do they live, blah blah blah blah. And then a bit like you try and do with your, what is it called, one football, they stick it on the bottom of the content. So the money can come in directly or it can come in directly. But you've got to have confidence haven't you? You've got to have confidence and you've got to have ambition to look beyond the boundaries. I've always wondered this why the club don't do it because I was quite close really to the Orlando city. I want to fill a role and he's moved out today and I want to call it a lot. But I remember speaking to him because I got to Orlando when I'm over there. And I was like, and he was the manager so I was more invested at that time. And I was like, I can't see any of his press conferences or anything on YouTube because it's geo-locked. And he was like, what? So I was talking to him. We were speaking about that and I was like, I'm 5,000 miles away just trying to get some information on Orlando city in a different country. And I can't because it's geo-locked because then I decided to geo-lock the stuff they hadn't done until last. And I think they've now un-geolocked because they've realised we're actually stopping people who are interested somewhere else. Why don't Everton do a free tier with content? And this again comes back to, you can have a paid tier, no problem with that. And that can give you extra content, that's fine, no issue with that. But they need to be doing free stuff as well. So that people in all of those countries that you see can go, I'll sign up to that. I'll be an Everton member. It doesn't cost me anything. It doesn't cost a football club something to go, you're a subscriber. And once you subscribe you'll get emails every now and again. It doesn't cost a club anything because it's just a bit of catchment software. So you go in, John Blaine, I live in America, so you're in Orlando, there's me email address and then you get a code or something. And Everton could put three things a week, say three which you get by subscribing. So if you're not a subscriber you can't see that, that's fine. So it's going to encourage people to go, well I do want to watch Everton training on a Friday before a home game. Because there's a bit of five minute content or ten minute training. Whatever, draw them in, then if I pay I get to watch two training sessions that week. Or whatever, encourage it because obviously at the end of the day the club are trying to grow everything. You like to think so. It comes back to targets, it comes back to ambition. When you set targets, you're talking about growing the fan base and almost counting someone as a fan because they've got all these subscription points. That's right, that's right. The biggest spike in our Twitter following was while Cooman was the manager. When he started he had more followers than we had. It was Blue Christmas Street. That probably helped as well. But it's 1.6 million or something. So when you talk about targets, when's it going to be two? And once it's two, when's it going to be three? Once it's three. And then when you start counting shirts you say, we've got five million Twitter followers. We've got so many Instagrams, we've got so many Facebooks, we've got so many on our name of the dress file. We've got this, we've got that, we don't deal that. Ten million, you're having a laugh, we want 15, we want 20. We've done it on here. I know, I know. When Brazil, when the Jarlison scores, when Mina started, Columbia, 15th out, people just watched. Because we've got big names to then. So the playing in the Premier League, so everything should be all over it. Well let's hope we use them this time because we failed on Tim Howard, we failed on Stephen Pnr, we failed on Tim Easey. So let's hope now with Mina and with Richie Ladd and with Gomez and others. That we like the most. It's been really good. It's been cool. Excellent. And we'll do this again so we'll get anything we've said, you know, the lads have said. Get Mark down. Mark, you're quite welcome to get in your car and drive down. We'll pay for the train for us. John will bring you down. We'll just get you there on Skype. Can you do that? We can do a live thing. We'll maybe do that one day. We'll set it up and we'll do a Skype call and we can Skype Q&A. Yeah, we can do a hang-off in our pitons. But we'll record it at a sensible time. Well listen, I'm here all day. It's him having to travel 400 miles to be here. That's commitment. It's a match day, you'll be here. It's not a match day, you'll have to do Skype. Big thanks to John. Big thanks to Roger again for coming in. There you go. We've discussed all sorts there. All money, the club. If you're watching, I've told you what to do. That easy. Subscribe as well. It's always that easy. See you later.