It's academic and it's theater. It's the place where they both meet. We have bloggers and participants very well. We can actually practice and start a practice. It's a couple of questions. Examples of women sharing what it is they need to share and how they need to do that. There's no way you can ignore what I couldn't say anymore. What time is it now? It starts out about different people and about different things. A whole scene of a banana, theater for everybody. Yes, everybody. Let's get what can be done. I have to do it completely. And indeed you might understand your life, relationships, and all the other things. They might have been. First of all, welcome everybody to the Martini Theater Center here at the Graduate Center Cunions. Thank you for watching a bit of our propaganda before we go over to Andrzej. We steal a little bit of the light that comes from him as the old sailors on the ships when they navigated the ocean, they looked up to the stars where to go and they were somewhere brighter and less but everybody knew how to navigate the oceans and the oceans of life of theater and Andrzej with his work for sure is one of the stars. We all orient our little ships and so Andrzej, thank you so much first of all for coming and joining us here at the Segal Center. Thank you for inviting me. He spent six hours, I said earlier today when we shot the film, six or seven hours in a plane yesterday in Berlin and then the plane did not leave. They did not leave them out so we had to go back, we went to an hotel, came back to the airport and just arrived I think three or four hours ago at Newark Airport and so it is quite an accomplishment. Andrzej just celebrated his 90th birthday in Berlin a couple of weeks ago. So I'm Frank Hinschkamp from the Segal Theater Center here, the director. We do bridge academia and professional theater, international and American theater. I do focus on theater and performance and my work here also would not have been thinkable if I hadn't been one of the students of Andrzej at that what we heard in the afternoon, our legendary Giesen Theater Institute. So it's kind of a circle as we sit here in a circle or a homecoming. Part of the video we showed also was filmed here in the space. So Pavel did a great job I think to combine some threads. And so when I heard that Andrzej would be coming visiting New York and South Carolina I said we really have to get him here, invite him here, him speak, his thoughts and I said there will be an audience so really thank you so much for coming and joining and I see many friends and compatriots or comrades in arms from over six, seven decades where Andrzej Wirt has followed theater. He's one who has seen Mother Courage directed by Brecht in Warsaw who has seen the openings of Krotowski, of Tadeusz Kantor, of Marge. Someone who has translated Brecht and Frisch and Dürinmatt, someone who went as a little kid in a tram through the Warsaw ghetto who was part of an underground school, had to leave it. So the horrors of the Warsaw uprising are new about it. There was this father who was a minister, Polish minister in exile in London and then went on and saw the American avant-garde very early on, Richard Forman, Robert Wilson, Meredith Monk and so many others, but especially the work of Robert Wilson. And he then created that school, the Giesens School of Ungewandte Theaterwissenschaft, applied studies that really was even, as some said, the end of the German theater was written in the German FAZ magazines. There was such a military institution designed to end German theater, as some critics wrote. And great people came out. I saw in the program Remini Protocol, he sheep of Gottsquad, Hans-Werner Krözinger, I had an old man, an endless number of linear polish very early on. So this is all the Giesens School and the Giesens influence that Andrzej has put together. It's also really a great, great honor to have him back here. Also Andrzej, next to all his teachings at Stanford and Harvard and Yale, also taught at CUNY and was a professor, I think at Lehman and City College. I think Bonnie Moranka, who was a student. Who else? I saw Eleanor Fuchs, but she couldn't make it, I think, tonight. So he also has formed a generation. Eleanor St. Calpe, I think, went to see him when he was in Berlin and did Johanna Muller studies, who's also a teacher here at CUNY. So it's really, he spent decades in continents. So Andrzej, the evening tonight will be an open conversation about theater.  Well, the question comes too early. I actually was not prepared to... I was actually ready to come yesterday. I also had some confusion and being very tired, of course. It was not pleasant what happened before. But just to be in Manhattan made me again happy. And the idea for this trip is actually that I will go to the south where I was once there, actually ready for happy retirement. And it happened before the call from Germany. I'm talking about early 80s. About 80s, I thought that my academic career was actually closed. And then came this call from Germany. And a country which is very bureaucratically ruled. And it was an age problem that they could actually call me a professor and the director of Institute. Of course I wasn't interested to be a game professor. But the invitation went together with the offer to create a new Institute. And I was 54. I was 54 and I was in Carolina with a young wife, with a young child. And I was reading for pleasure going through this time. In the local, taking... I was the first reader who took the books of going through this time from my people's library in Georgetown, South Carolina. I would check now, I suppose, that I am still the only one reader. It might be there where you put them. Of the books. But it also changed my life to Littlestan in the late 70s and early 80s. And only many years afterwards I was told, I would never think about it, that there is a colleague, a scholar in Copenhagen, named Annalisa Schultz. And he came to my various authentic publications in Germany on Goethe-Western. They were the first which actually opened the reception of Goethe-Western in Germany. And she published in this country a book last year about that. And so I was very pleased at this, actually this work which was very much connected with this genius Lothi, being in the South. And reading also the novels of Spine, which are building with the South. And this is also behind my interest to come so long as I can to see after many years. It's already, I haven't been since early 80s in South Carolina, where I also built the house. It will be really a trip. Yes, I told you this. One of my secret things, if I would have second life, I would like to be an architect. Well, this is good. And you tell us, what is your very first memory of theater? What is the first thing you remember ever seeing in the theater? Well, actually I'm totally unqualified to say anything valid about theater in the view of my biography. Because I was born in this operetta state, Poland, between two worlds, which existed only 20 years. And then from 1939, the terrible terror and the universal, and of course, no possibility to see theater. Paradoxically, I profited. But I see it only now, looking back, that Poles were reduced by Germans, by slaves, and all education was forbidden. But it had a perverse advantage, because in a conspiracy in the underground, and I was a teenager at that time, I was in gymnasium, but I had university professors who taught me, because universities were closed. So it was a paradox of a terrorized city, and with a dangerous clandestine education, because of a danger of gatherings, only three students could meet with a professor. But basically, I think later on I could become a professor and teach, and learn languages, and learn Latin, and already as a teenager, later on, during the Stalinist period, I translated, look at Yuzer Alunatruva, and he still lives with me. I also dream of them in Latin. And I do get it fixed, so me don't move and survive. As you said, you knew the young Pope and his girlfriend at the time, when he wasn't a Pope yet from Poland. A theater place. You know, Oxford, similar tutoring in a terrorized city. So one of these things, and about theater, back to your question, film was forbidden, and theater, of course, was also forbidden. So basically this is my thought that I am totally unqualified to talk about theater, and that this enormous arrogance to try to build our own biography on theater. You know, they're saying that some of the crew haven't seen Hamlet at 17, shouldn't actually talk about theater. I haven't seen Hamlet at 17. I couldn't. So I'm totally unqualified to talk about theater. How did you meet Brecht? How come that you didn't meet Brecht? What was the connection? How did that start? Well, this is also a prehistory, almost. This is not enough now, although I wrote about that. Actually the first publications, after my landing in the States in 1966, was an accident. I came here for the first time, invited by the Literary Group 47 to Princeton, and my intention, indeed, was not to stay. Anyway, I was married, I had a child, and I had also a position as editor in Poland. But as I came to America, I had, of course, contact with American scholars because of my interest in German expressionism. I made friends only by correspondence with Walter Zocali in Stanford and met with Ruby Kohn because of Beckett. So I had scholarly contacts in the United States, which then were very helpful as I was stranded suddenly. I think you wrote about Brecht, your dissertation. I know that you applied to be at the Berlin Ensemble. Yes, what is not known, that Brecht, of course, is a very nice thing to say, but this really had said, it's only seven years Brecht's activity in Berlin, in Berlin-Armsam, and this is explainable only through the fact that he came from emigration with the whole drawers full of places which were not staged. And the whole Brecht canon was actually in seven years. It's actually a phenomenon of intensity in seven years in Berlin-Armsam, the place which was. And in this context your question is that Brecht was also subject matter to political restriction of the regime, although he was very careful not to criticize and wrote a lot of fanatics about GDR out of gratitude that he got this theater. But what is not known is that in the 50s he was under political restrictions in the GDR and the only country in which Berlin-Armsam visited was permitted to visit was Poland, People's Republic of Poland. It was in 52 and 54, so please do note how early it happened. 52 and 54, yes, Brecht was in theater. He was totally forgotten. He's a great name from the pre-war time. And all major plays, Mother Carriage, Berserk, Brochen and Kruk, Caucasian cry-de-cries were shown in Poland. Brecht was twice in Poland. And on the second visit he gave me also, and this is in a reception of Brecht without precedence, he gave me rights to translate his play, Schweig and Schweig based on Hasek, of course, known, known. Politically very naive play, showing that the fact that he was an emigre, he had, with all innocence, he had no idea about the cruelty. No, that's not well formulated. I would say he had no idea about the possibility of resistance. The possibility of resistance in World War I, the paradigm of Hasek, was not applicable to the situation in the Second World. However, politically, no, politically is a great play. And I was ever a translator of poetry, of German poetry, another German, and one of the, to my mind, the most beautiful theatrical poetry of Brecht, is in Schweig and Schweig. I know that, I think you once also, Kristina's here, you gave the talk at Yale, where you said Poland all of a sudden became, for ten years, a world power, and was that also Brecht's impulse, was that changing the scene, or do you think it was a homegrown theme that came out, the intensity that came from Poland, as contribution to World Theatre, was that already there, or was that also initiated by Brecht? You mean the impulse of Brecht on Polish theatre, not just in reverse, it was still domination of so-called leftist critics. Brecht was from the official state criticism in Poland, received very critically, as a pacifist, and so it was just actually the Soviet line, of course, of criticism, pacifist post-expressionists and so on. So it was not easy to fight for Brecht, and that shows my story. I wrote very early this dissertation about something which I wanted to be a dissertation, no chances to be put officially on the universities could it become a publication? No, could it become a vulgar Marxism, yes. So I wrote very early this, actually, this pterometric look-tool was written with intention to be a doctor dissertation, but then it was no chance to publish it in Poland, the reason for that. I started, my university started after the war, and there were two first years of the university in Poland after the war, which were still like a pre-war university. That is to say the Polish strong position in the logistics and the links with Wittgenstein and Schlick and Karnap of my professors, yes. And this was my education, yes, by Kotorinski, Kotor Kielicz, and people who were connected to Wittgenstein's logistics. This was interesting. It was very bad comment. This was possible to study first years after the war, but after that it was no more kosher. So I wrote my would-be dissertation into a drawer, and only by chance it was published in Germany after Brexit in a very widely-read magazine Zinlhorn as this telemetric structure. And it was the best thing that happened to me because the peace was noticed, of course, because of Brexit. But I was criticized in the East and he praised in the West how come that suddenly from this restricted Poland comes such a voice. So I was lucky, but it was... And then I couldn't publish it in Poland until 1966, and then in 1966 it was published in Breslau, in Wroclaw. We heard today in the documentary Hans-Tis Lehmann, who, and we will talk a bit later about post-traumatic theatre, said also your great contribution to theatres, the idea of the Leerstück or the theatre without audience, and I know you also directed Fazer and Kapo and a couple of universities. So you always said this is perhaps the centre of Brecht's work that had been overlooked. So I don't know how very well known it is. But do you still feel that the theatre and the audience perhaps was Brecht's greatest contribution on the formal level? Well, that's his well-taken point. I got it from Brecht. Of course it was already forgotten, but I didn't make an ideological point of it. I had said that it opens a new vista if you think about theatre without an audience. And about, I mean, that Brecht of course. Tell us a bit about your Fazer experiments and the idea behind it that we saw also in the workshops. Fazer was a funny story. Thank you for asking, because... Fazer is kind of an unfinished work by Brecht. It's a collection of material he worked on for over decades of soldiers lost in World War I. What happened after Brecht's death? Brecht's early death, he was 56, as you know, very early. He died and Helena Weikel became the director. And also his daughter and her husband, Eckhart Schoen, had a voice over the archive. And of course material interests are successors also to a big income from the productions of Brecht around the world. And obviously, this is not only with Brecht. Usually the inheritors are very busy to tell the outside world that there is still something hidden, that not everything is out. And we knew with Mr. Brecht's foreshore about Fazer. Fazer was a play which he started as a show trick as a drama actually. And in the 20s and not finished it as a drama. And those were the years where he got ideas about Brecht and started a new version which also is not finished of Fazer as Fazer is the name of a soldier who deserted from the World War I together with three other colleagues and who went into the conspiracy in the underground expecting the Red Revolution to happen. And anyway, an almost volume of material not finished not finished as a show trick, not finished as a drama. And it was seated in Berlin, an ensemble Brecht archive. And all requests of my German colleagues to see it were refused by Helena Weigel and a daughter of Brecht. And I knew a Brecht's strategy as a writer. He was extremely clever. In these terms extremely clever. A situation he went to, he knew that he was manipulated by the East regime for the gift of having a theater. But he didn't want to be slaves to this manipulation. And he did a very clever thing. He gave the rights to his place also to Zurich am Verlach editing house in West Germany. So the first rights were to Alba Verlach in East Germany and the Western. So they said to say, this was a regulative thing. It was impossible to go away from Canon. Yes, if there was East Germanization of Brecht parallel by Alba Verlach or Western addition by Zurich am Verlach. Anyway, this matter, a lot of my German colleagues tried to get it. And I also tried to get it. And of course, we get permission. And then as I came to the States, I remember Brecht's tactics that I knew. I don't know why my German colleagues didn't use it because they could use this door which was still open. The Brecht sent to the Houghton Library in Harvard film roles with his whole, the same old-fox strategy to have it. But for some reason nobody in Germany took advantage of it. And as I came to America, I went to Stefan Brecht, the son, and asked him for permission to read the films in Houghton Library in Harvard. They were real film roles. And I read it on the old-fashioned machine. He saw page after page and copied it and translated it. Of course, I was not enough skillful to trust my ability to translate from Germany to English. So I did together with Lacey Wilson, professor of German in Texas, Austin. Wonderful. So then you made also the jump from Brecht, and of course after all your Polish theater makers, to the American avant-garde, especially to Robert Wilson, your most well-known also in Germany for your big defense of Robert Wilson's D&D1 destruction, which was hated by most German theater critics. The actors loved it, the audience loved it. But he really encountered great resistance. And Andrzej wrote in Teatro Houghton an article saying, you know, the connections of who has to spandau, explain the work, and also that inspired, and also Hanor Muller, who included, then went to see and opened up his reception. He came to that friendship between Wilson and Hanor Muller that created this unique work. To talk about Wilson, you just went last week to see the Hoffman's Tale. So tell us a bit, nobody here in the room has seen it. So we talked about your earliest memory. So your last one is seeing a Wilson production. So tell us a little bit what you saw there, and how you have observed him over the decades. Well, actually to assume that Bob Rhett as a Hoffman, this would be a crazy idea. He doesn't inspire himself from readings, but particularly of such a esoteric author of the show, romanticism, et al. But Teatro in Gisseldorf approached him with a project. And I am forgetting now the name. I gave you the program. And I also haven't seen it, haven't heard it. There is a young British girl who came with two albums as a singer and a guitarist. Calvi, I think. I gave you this program. And this inspired him, actually. And I think it will be a very big hit. It is not sold for global circulation as all pieces of Wilson produce the Berlin Ensemble in the direction of Weimar, because Weimar is no more the director of the Gisseldorf season of the Berlin Ensemble. But I am sure it will be a global success. I am not informed what kind of deals were made. Because this is a radical musical. This is the vicinity of Blackrider, actually. And I talked to some, you know, Ravisch-Holzhausen last week where the premiere took place. And I was very skeptical that he would do something based on Etai Hoffmann. Hoffmann's tales, you know, the opera, the guitar. Yeah, show romantic, yeah. Then I changed my mind. I didn't know anything about this young artist from England. And the idea is... I talked to Bob afterwards. He said... He said that Scott Influenstein, in this piece, is still having a Müller humlet machine, a man's machine, which actually is not Müller's idea because, as you know, expressionist had also this idea German expressionist, man's machine. And in what terms, the figures are totally artificial because this is a young dance ensemble, also dancers. And the voice is given by singers. So they're artificial figures. It's not novel, of course, but the whole aesthetic is based on this. And I think it's an enormous hit because one thing that I thought, Bob, because as usual, what do you think? He said, well, it must be a success. And the reason for that is that it does not require a sustained attention. It's boom, boom, boom. The whole aesthetic is for short attention span. We are box, box, box, box, box, box. Because I'm not from this generation, but I understood. I tried to understand the mechanism. It must be a success because for two hours you are bang, bang, bang, bang. So, yeah, you brought a lot of the avant-garde to Giesa, and it was Richard Shackner, Bob Wilson, Molly Davis, John Jasun came, and many, many others. And this idea, you used first the term in 1984 already of the post-traumatic theater was your invention and then put it to a comprehensive system by Hansi Sleiman. But you still continue to watch and say even this term does no longer grab what theater is about now. So what are your reflections on global theater and this kind of, you know, turbo-capitalism, as we say, in the contemporary global world we live in? What is the place of theater? What is it saying, and what should it be saying from your point of view? I think what I'm saying in Germany also is that the ensemble, this Auslaufen, this model, meaning that ensemble theater is a model which is Auslaufen. Which is no longer in fashion, it's an outgoing model. Outgoing model, yes. Ensemble is globally, actually. Just remember that Menuschkin and Broek and Strailer, just name them, yes. There are all historical names. We don't have them now. It's time to reflect why. We don't have more, the theater became more like a Kino. Kino means movies, theater became more like movies. Yes, and a big example is the Chauvin, the former ensemble theater of Peter Stein, in which you mentioned the scandal with Wilson, the DD&D, in which I... It's very interesting that actually Stein, 79, still director of probably the biggest, the most important European theaters, ensemble theaters of the Chauvin, invited Robert Wilson. Robert Wilson stage does destruction, destroyed the classic, 79. And this became the end of the Chauvin, because Stein got a suspicion that Stein, the leftist, and Zabs Ganant, the communist, thought that this is some powerless eye. Yes, which Wilson put in his leftist theater. And it was a big scandal, especially after Stein's actors, after working with Wilson, started to revolt against the director, Stein. And it was a famous exchange between... I obtained for my students the internal protocols from the rehearsals with Stein, and the big tragic actress edit clever.  I said, what he told me? He came to me and said, edit, you are a star. So this, you may laugh that's what the actors want to hear. Yes, as Peter Stein had this military, authoritarian style, yes. Actually very brutal, also, with actors. It was the end of Peter Stein, and now, under the director from the former Isabelline of St. Mayer, Chauvin had become a kind of a Kino. Movie theater. Movie theater, yes. There is a young, for the first time in German theater, there is a young audience. There is a young audience, and the habit of going to theater is as it is among young people who are going to movies because it's dark there, yes. And indeed, it's just also the tempo and big presence because the educational theater in Germany had no young people in classical theater. And now you have, for the first time, young people in theater. Just I know more about that because I would like to know the reason being that the slime mobility became limited that the Chauvin had happened to be around my house. So I go through the street to the Chauvin. Before we open up to perhaps a couple of questions, you said that perhaps that idea of post-traumatic theater no longer really grabs the current theater, contemporary theater, or as Brecht said, we need new times, we need new forms of theater. What would you describe then what the zeitgeist? What is the era we live in? Is there a term, one could grab, that I always remember you said theater is a model for something, that's why it's so interesting that something happens on this stage that perhaps then also could happen in a reality, in a society, in a home. But what are you saying, is there a term or is there a description, an atmosphere one could use to describe what theater at the moment is about or should be about? It's very eclectic. It's very sensation-oriented. It's very much like a journalist's discourse about disinformation and so on. Something which usually is very publicistic. Publishing. Yes, something like a political part of a magazine. And very often that strict, that's why a play is no more a model. It could be open reading, it could be everything but not necessarily for children of the Dharma. Yelinek is an example of that. Yelinek's work. Yeah, so maybe Brad and Michael, we put a little bit of light up in the audience. We do have a microphone if you have maybe a question or a comment. And again, thank you for joining us after spending a day in an airplane and having an overnight flight and having just arrived for a couple of hours in most most kind and generous of you, not to bail on us. So are there any comments or questions or remarks? So maybe about the film in case you saw it this afternoon. Thank you, Andrzej, for being here. Wonderful. I would like to maybe relate to that question about young people in the theater because what you said about theater as politically minded, like publicistic, like a discussion engaging people because when I saw Oster Mayer's here, the enemy of the people, then I was surprised to what extent the whole audience, I don't know, you must have seen that production, whole audience was engaged. I had never ever seen everybody asking questions. So in your term, do you consider this, that this is theater without the audience when the audience becomes a part of the whole theater production? That's one thing. And in the same manner in Poland, when I saw, let's say, Dajota Masłowska's, No Matter How Hard We Try, the interaction between very many young people that surprised me, interaction between the audience and whatever was happening on stage was again so emotional that it just, again, I was thinking about theater without the audience when the audience becomes a part of the whole production. Thank you. So what do you think about it? Difficult question. I can say only anecdote because it sounds unbelievable, but as illustration to my thesis about the show, that theater becomes as a movie, as atmosphere, I'm still seeing almost everything because I'm getting also free tickets and I'm sitting still, although I'm not making any theater criticism in journalistic terms. And in the seventh row it's dark and I was in one play and suddenly I feel a pressure on my right arm looking a little behind and I think that there is a young lady who put her leg on my arm. So, of course, it's not unpleasant. And what I would hate to appear are all the gentlemen who protest. So I only make a small movement of her head and she saw obviously only black figure and after some seconds I feel the pressure on another arm. So, well, my colleagues won't believe about that. They say, this is Andrzej's fantasy. No, this is not a fantasy. And it happened. Another thing, this is a new, I'm for sure not proved, but some things still seeing from the premiere and still being in generation who remembers the ritual of the premiere and sitting in the seventh row behind me there are young people in jeans and we know that the backside of jeans is not an erotic place. You can show like in a zoo. So, I see three persons leaning upon and they cannot stop us as an agent provocateur whom I'm as you know. So, I said, too much information. Don't understand what I'm saying. Too much information. But this is the atmosphere and this is exactly what I have heard on the column now. Changing audiences is all complication. Thank you. Do you have a question? Yeah, we will watch the documentary just now and I was really, really moved by something I heard. It says like we came for the ocean but we got shallow waters instead. It happens a lot of times in many cases and I hope it was not what you feel like to say about what the theater has done over the decades. So, as also a theater researcher I wonder what would you like to say or what would you see the promises of doing theater itself and doing theater research. Thank you. Do you think theater also is becoming shallow and shallow? Is it worth the research? What should one research? Well, it depends where you think where theater happens. Happens if theater happens on the stage or if the theater happens in the audience or maybe theater happens in a discourse, in a written critical discourse which it provokes or not provokes. So it's an interesting question you are posing but I would say it happens differently. You did say on Jay that, and I agree with you that, if I understand you correctly, that a lot of the work that we see is very journalistic. A lot of the contemporary theater is very journalistic in a sense because it's on the level of magazine writing and we have very good investigative reporting, very good journalism and magazine writing. I love journalism but it's not as artistic perhaps because we're used to getting a lot of contemporary stories from radio and magazines and even online journalism. So I've wondered myself for many years what will theater do with itself. I've recently been thinking that I'd like to see you return to the writer because I feel that these times need a much more philosophic, poetic, rigorously intellectual way of understanding the contemporary world beyond this journalistic way. I've recently felt that one area that I found this has been in the recent work of Carol Churchill who I feel is creating a new dramatic language and creating new forms and I find her work extraordinary and one of the really few people in the theater who has really created new forms and new languages for our time. A totally different kind of language, a dystopian language in the way that the Russians and the general expressionists and the KVG, even the Poles created language in the period between the wars, but it is a kind of catastrophic imagination and a lot of people don't want to go in that place. But I'm saying I found this newer vision at least in writing in Carol Churchill's recent work which is very difficult but very brilliant her last few plays. So it's one alternative to a lot of the spectacle in media and journalistic work that is not reaching that level, I feel. I'm so moved to listening to Bonnie and I have to tell you the anecdote that you have to say that if it's true or not. I remember us the crisis started in the city university in 76-77 and we lost a lot of graduate students due to financial difficulties and Bonnie and Gautam Das Gupta were students of mine at that time and they came to me and asked what to do and you remember I told you you should make a serious, profound theatre magazine. Yes, you asked what to do, what you did of course and I had said it will be something novel in the context of theatre publication in the 70s and indeed a PhD played this role. It's totally new to have a journal of this ambition and this quality which opens now and persecuted by people who are saying that they are my oldest students and who is my oldest student and still somebody else comes and now there is a black scholar very well known and also he necessarily later on biography may be not totally different as mine Klaus Furker who was also founder of Ernst Busch Schule, a prominent school of acting in Berlin and he claims to be my oldest student. Sure, someone else. Maybe we will have a little reception here so you can ask additional questions but is there one more, maybe a comment? Peter, yes please. I was just interested in this photograph or two photographs with the no mask. Did you have a relationship to Japanese theatre at all in your career and I don't know whether you've seen it. You were asking about the mask, I think there's Daniel. Oh yes, okay. What is the history of the photo? Oh yes, interesting that you're asking but because it is also necessary to say here it's for me personally very moving. This was done last autumn montage done in Germany, in Berlin on the occasion of some... Golanfestspieler. A day with Angebert here. This was one day with... Angebert here. We have in Germany now under the new direction of the theatre Ferspiele, we have now something which is called One Day With and they arrange for me one day with ATW. And there are these two pictures. The one is... Is Yadriga here? No. One is the original No Mask from 66 and this is the mask which is still in the apartment of Yadriga Gerald here on the 66th Street in New York which a friend of mine and a former colleague here in a graduate school, Daniel Gerald a great translator of Witkiewicz brought from Korea I think the mask is Japanese, original law and it happened as I thought I landed without planning it in America and my first position was in Stanford and then I rented an apartment from Daniel Gerald professor of the San Francisco State College and in his apartment I discovered this No Mask and it shows me from 66 with the mask of No and the later picture is I don't know unfortunately the original No Mask but a Japanese friend gave me a replica which is actually a replica of No this is not original mask very expensive, very difficult to get and I had this idea to make a composition out of it it is not my two days face which you can see and this is a very good No Mask but not original and the No Mask from 66 is original No Mask may I put it on my paper? Yeah, so it certainly as an image does signify decades and time and memory and ghosting and a transition of time so I think you we looked a little bit behind the mask of Anjivirt tonight and normally it could go on for much longer and a bit more but in respect also to your long journey long days journey home and I also heard you had a little whiskey in your hotel, is that true? Yeah, so we come to and I hope you can stay around a little bit and say hello to our friends and some of your friends who came here we really would like to say thank you and pay our respect for an extraordinary life in the landscape of theater in the landscape of world theater and the great contributions you have made and it's really a model even you might say there are no models on stage but still here is a model for what a life in theater can do or can do and can inspire so thank you for coming Can I say something next? Thank you I think I should say something about Frank who is my student from the I used to speak to say that the relationship between me and the former student Frank is Socratic in these terms I learned a lot from him from Frank I learned not to make an empty compliment he brought he forced me to learn computer and I am the only one in my generation I don't nominate I would not say your name but the very famous colleague of mine Younger who has a very significant institute for performing arts and big institute and she organizes international conference of performers to which young people are coming with their computers with laptops on which they play like Ruben Stein but the great Professor Ressa writes with Kugelscheiner writes with she is younger as I am and I have to think about so part of the biography that hopefully will also come out in English soon we are trying to help with the translation I think Richard Grom on performance research will also publish in London so it will be available in English fleeing forward writing like Brett would say in his songs as he gives a motto anybody who reads German and wants to have this we have a couple of books here and otherwise you would have to wait a little bit but again I think a big applause a big applause applause thank you thank you thank you


So this is a session, really, I suppose this is filling a gap between our expectations of when sensors 2021 will be released and when it's actually going to be released. So the latest information we have is that this is going to be available from October and I'll go through that in the session in a bit more detail. Please feel free to raise questions as we go along. There's quite a lot of information in here. And if you have particular interest, I'm happy to stop at different points. Ideally using the Q&A section so that we can pick them out easily. So what I'm going to cover today is what we know so far of ONS release plans. I think we expect these to be firmed up with some more dates fairly soon, but there's nothing when I checked yesterday to update what we have. Then to talk about some considerations about using sensors data and finally to share with you what we have to offer in terms of events like this and other events that are planned to support your use of the sensors. First of all, there's a phase release over a year. So I'm going to go through each of these in more detail, but phase one, we're kind of in at the moment. So on 28th of June, we received the local authority summaries by age and sex from October to December, we're going to get the topic summaries and area profiles. They cover broadly the same areas, but the area profiles are more interactive, whereas the topic summaries are intended to be more downloadable, I think, if you want to think about the distinction between them. Phase two will include multivariate data. So that will be a set of tables predefined as in the 2011 release, though there are less tables in this release currently in the schedule that ONS have published. And alongside that a flexible table builder, which will be available via ONS. So that will enable you to populate tables. We'll say a little bit more about that later on. And they've also brought forward one of the short term, the small population data sets, which is for short term measurements. Phase three will be a set of other data. So more different population bases, more small populations and flow data and micro data. This is really based on work with ONS, so it links to England and Wales. Northern Ireland actually released the first data and they've got another release planned this week, but there's a slower schedule for the release of their data. And as you probably know, Scotland, the Scotland census only completed a year later is extended by a month. And so we don't expect results from that until well into 2023. Once all of the results are in from England, Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland, there will be a UK wide census release. But there will be if anybody's interested in that, ask me a question about it later on, and we can talk about what will be included and some of the challenges in looking at that data. So the topic summaries are going to be mainly univariate data that will be released every two to three weeks from October onwards. So the first block are on demography and migration. They include variables like the age and sex breakdowns, but at different geographical scales. So down to output area level, administrative scales, etc. I'll talk a bit more about the geography in a minute. They will also include country of birth, age of arrival and year of arrival in the UK. So we'll cover migration topics as well. The second group will cover ethnic group, national identity, language and religion. The third, the veterans information, which has been brought forward. The fourth on health disability and on paid care. The fifth on housing, which includes information at household level about tenure about overcrowding, etc. Then labor market and travel to work. The next area, these are voluntary questions. So they're new to census 2021, new to the census altogether. We're not clear on the return rates at the moment, but they cover sexual orientation and gender identity. And then finally, education. So this data is available for there will be variables for individuals, variables for households, and also in terms of housing variables for dwelling spaces that will show something, some estimate of empty dwellings. So Suzanne's asked about returns. Initially, in Scotland, the return rate was quite low. I think they've largely increased that by the extension of the month. So there will be some issues, I think, particularly in Glasgow that they expect, but I think they're reasonably competent. They can make population estimates based on the returns that they've received. I think we're waiting for more information from Scotland about how that process is going now. So they have actually changed the way that they're using administrative data to check the returns. Right, so in terms of geographical data, this is now available from the open NS Open geography portal and will be available from the UK data service. It has been scheduled to be loaded up. We still have some work to do on our website to make 2021 census data visible and that will be done by the time the data is released. The full sets of area and bivariate data, multivariate data. So the boundary data that's there is administrative data on local authority health districts, electoral data on areas like constituency awards. I'll come to you in a minute, Robert, and statistical areas built up from output areas, which I'll say a bit more about afterwards. Robert's asked that we won't be able to tabulate health data against ethnicity. That's included in the multivariate data release. So my understanding is that for ethnicity, for example, what you will be able to see is ethnicity by age and sex, but not by any of the other variables until the multivariate data is released. I'm pretty certain that's one of the tables that is there. But if not, it should be available through the flexible table burner. Okay, so that's the geography, just to say a little bit more about output areas. So output areas were introduced in 2001. The idea was of them was to give a more stable geography than the kind of ward data had done previously. So significant reorganizations forced by changing populations meant the war boundaries have not really been consistent in many areas over time. So in 2001, output areas were built and they had a kind of set size with a minimum and maximum and a target size. They were based on an analysis of matching characteristics within the population so that the areas were more homogenous and subsequent revisions have tried to minimize changes. So my understanding is that the, well, the number of changes in from 2001 to 2011 was less than 5% and similarly that target has been met from the 2021 census. Okay, Cedric, yeah. So the univariate data, phase one data will be available down to output area level with one caveat about statistical disclosure, which I'll talk about later on. So those output area geographies are then built up into two and what's called a lower level or LSOA again with target sizes, and they are linked to quite a lot of data that's published. So, for example, the index of multiple deprivation and the different indicators, administrative data, and recorded crime data. And the next level up is mid-level super output areas, probably akin to the size of wards. Again, there are statistics published at this level. So GCSE attainment, education attainment, COVID cases. And all of those output area geography boundaries are constrained within local authorities. So we don't get overlapping areas between local authorities. So they're usable in that sense. Okay, so area profiles are similar and there's some examples in here of the types of things that are there. The first release on demography and migration. As I said before, there's sex and age. There's also legal partnership status, whether people are living in private housing or communal establishments, their country of birth, how long they've lived in the UK, and things about household composition. I think I've covered most of the others in terms of work. There's economic activity, hours worked in banded areas, industry and occupation, and also information about travel to work. Again, there's a caveat on that given that the census was taken mid-pandemic. There probably wasn't a lot of travel to work for many occupations. So what we have is limited to some extent. In terms of education, we've got whether people are in full-time education or highest qualification. And on health, there's a self-reported subjective health measure and also long-term health problem or disability, whether the person provided on paid care. So glance phase one. As I said, if you've got any questions, then feel free to put them into the chat now into the Q&A and I'll pick them up as we go along. So in phase two, we're going to get information about the short-term population. This is people who said they intended to stay in the UK less than 12 months. There will also be defined sets of tables, and we will share this version of the slides, but there are previous ones that give you that link to the details of those defined sets of tables. And they will be available at different geographical scales. In terms of the flexible table builder, all we've seen is a mock-up, but it's worth kind of diverting a little bit to explain what will happen. So in 2001, we saw this strange changing of numbers. So we didn't have one in two counts. We had zero or three, and that could mean any of those numbers at different geographical scales. In 2011, the challenges with that mock summing to the total were recognised, and what happened is that small counts were swapped between different areas. So small counts may not reflect the actual area they were in. This time that process will happen again, but once the table has been defined, there will be a rule-based statistical disclosure control that will suppress and tell you how much has been suppressed of the information you've requested. And I think that the last thing to say about that is the variable categories will vary between univariate and multivariate tables based on that. Now, at the moment, my understanding is that for some variables, and I'll use ethnicity as an example, a reduced set of categories will be available in the flexible table builder and in a lot of the multivariate table. So previously what happened with this data was that the balance between scale and the number of categories was determined by ONS and the pre-published tables were therefore limited in scope in particular ways. At the moment, it looks like the scope on variables like ethnicity will be caught back in the multivariate tables. I know there's been quite a bit of lobbying of ONS to get them to change this, so it's a bit of space we'll have to wait and see. But overall, I think the message is that you need to balance the geographical scale you're looking at against the level of detail you want in your categories. Okay, so a question from Samrie all about the multivariate tables. They will be down to output area level subject to statistical disclosure control. So depending on what you're looking at, if the counts are reasonable, they will be there. And there will be population and household estimates, I think is the thing to say. So in the data published in June, what we saw were the actual counts of data collected and also the population estimates derived from those alongside mid-year population estimates. I don't think we'll get that level of detail down to output area level, but there will be estimates of population and household at that level. Marion, the population estimates are the population estimates. That's what we will get, and that will be the base of all statistics released from the census. For those from local authorities, there's a strong commitment from ONS to look very carefully at mid-year population estimates for 2022. So though these won't have characteristics, they will be used to inform resource allocation because as you're probably aware, there's significant concerns about population change during the period of the pandemic. And some authorities very concerned about losing resources as a result. Okay, so, and then phase three, I'm going to go through each of these in turn. So these five areas, I haven't got much on detail migration data. The promise is that will be a number of tables developed around migration. And that's included there, but at the moment it's only words. There's no real, real details. So migration data broken down by a number of different characteristics. So the alternative population basis covers workplace population, workday population, which is a combination of those people who work in a particular geographical area, and those who aren't working and who live there. And out of term population. So this affects students. So students were asked to complete their return as if they were at their term time address, even if they were staying at home. And quite a lot of checking has been done to make sure to allocate students to the correct address. So the population should reflect students at their institutions and the address they would have been living at. If the pandemic hadn't happened. And it's the basis for kind of further analysis of our issues with students. The second address is where people have identified that they live have a second address which they stay at more than 30 days in the year. So things like holiday homes, but also work based addresses for people who have a residential and workplace living around term. In terms of small populations, we have a number of writing categories, and there's a there's a kind of promise, depending on statistical disclosure control to include a breakdown by five year age bands by sex for selected ethnic groups and countries of birth. So the categories that eligible for this are ethnic group. So I would sound a note of caution with ethnic group in that not everybody will have completed this for those who completed a tick box answer. There's no requirement to fill in ethnic group. In England and Wales in Scotland, interestingly, there were different ways of asking this question. All of them had another box right in box. But for example, the prompt for black African identified the country that people came from the the prompt for black Caribbean prompted a question about identity. So they will be there. They were very rich data down to our area level in 2011 and 2001, whether this statistical disclosure control will reduce the availability of that information is not clear at the moment. Similarly with country of birth, there's a lot of detail on country of birth. And in the raw variables, there's quite a lot of information. So we may well get a good look at that in phase one. Religion has a writing and national identity has a writing. There are a number of groups that based on people's requests, there will be data sets on MSO a level. So that includes Cornish Jane Kashmiri, Nepalese, Revadassia and seek. So the question about British sign language, and there will also be consideration about writing data and how robust is on other groups so they've identified Romanian Somalian and Turkish Cypriot. So flow data is probably different, but it is based on the origin origin of the flow and the destination of the flow. So it will cover issues on migration. So internal migration within England and Wales to start with that will be harmonized with Northern Ireland and Scotland once that data is available. Workplace flow so the commuting information that's previously used for calculating travel to work areas, etc. Second address flows.  So this is will be based on the term time and out of term address. Finally, in this section, the micro data samples. So these are data sets, the whole multiple variables for individuals. So they are a 5% sample regional and combined local authority geography. So the combined local authorities are relatively smallish number. So they are smaller, this small, smaller districts, the city of London, the art of selling as examples. So this will be for the first time in quite a while, a 1% sample of households, and there'll be a further 1% sample that's sent into an international database. So those are all safeguarded. I should have said the flow data and micro data are likely to be only available from the UK data service. On the flow data, there will be open data, safeguarded data and secure data. So there are three levels, open data, you don't need to be registered with us, you can just pick it up and use it. Examples include things like teaching data sets, but there isn't a lot of information in them. They tend to be quite limited relatively. Safeguarded data, you need to be registered with us and generally you can access safeguarded data. You do have requirements to notify the data owner of the purpose you're going to use that data for. And then secure data is the most detailed and you need to go through an accreditation process to become authenticated to use that data and then to use it in secure settings, which essentially means you can interact with the data but you can't take things out without them being approved. So it's quite resource intensive, both ONS and UK data service operate secure data training accreditation and also provide facilities for researchers to access that data. And in the secure data, there'll be a 10% sample of individuals and a 10% sample of households. So it's worth saying as an insurance policy for some of us, this might be a useful way and getting at more detail, multivariate data. Though the geography is more limited, we won't be able to go down to local neighborhoods within it, at least in the safeguarded data. So that's the kind of summary of what to expect from ONS and when what I wanted to spend a little bit of time thinking about is the considerations you need to take into account. So first of all, the obvious one, the pandemic was carried out during, sorry, the census was carried out during a pandemic. So there will be impacts on employment, things like employment, where people live, what work they were doing and education. And basically ONS are going to report fairly soon on an overall, if they haven't done already. And they will be looking at this in more detail. And they will provide supporting information alongside the releases of data saying how it might have affected particular variables. I'm sorry, I don't know the answer to this. I think there are some challenges with the rural urban indicator, but there is a, there is a kind of classification there. I suppose I can't answer that question. I'm sure it's there on the ONS website. And if you want to log a call with our help desk, which I'll give you details about later on, then somebody will pick it up and have a look at it. I can't do that interactively at the moment. At the time there was a new quality assurance process, which meant that the figures that were from the counts and the estimates that were being made were shared with local authorities who wanted to I think around 2017 England and Wales did so. That's one of the reasons for the delay because that process obviously took quite a long time. But what ONS asked for was evidence that would challenge the counts and estimates that have been collected from those local authorities. And there's already a kind of some information in draft and there will be publications from ONS on that process and how that worked. So I went to a conference recently where ONS were talking about these and there's a number of people working on publications to support our analysis in the future. So I think an important thing for us to think about is the coverage. So if we look at the coverage overall, the headline figure is very promising 90% percent. But that varies significantly between areas. And I suppose the areas we would expect to have lower rates of coverage, it may be the areas some of some more interested in. So the way that those counts have been turned into estimates might be important depending on the type of analysis you're doing. So you would need to think about and read the publications that come out around that process. Again, these are being worked on and will be released as we go along. But this kind of background technical information is quite useful because we are dealing with population household estimates. Then there is the changes in geography. So if you're interested in change over time, you may need to think about how the geography in the areas you're looking at has changed specifically. I did work on comparison between 2001 and 2011 census looking at Greater Manchester at neighborhood level. And there were significant changes caused by housing market changes. So the development of city centre and town centre living was quite significant. It's likely to be significant again in quite a lot of places. And also the clearance from housing, the changing nature of housing provision. This might be more challenging to get at because I think for me in 2001, 2011 what I saw were major redevelopments taking place. It feels like in the last 10 years we've had a lot more infill change. So whether that will impact boundaries or whether the boundaries will stay the same. I think that's quite interesting, but places will will inevitably grow in parts of the cultivation I might look at. So this is a question for Maria on English date English language data. So this is included within the second release at this to the language national identity and religion and has components around English language competence. Well, she also has things about Welsh language competence for Scotland. He has Gaelic Scots and for Northern Ireland, it has those Scots and Irish questions. So depending on which country you're looking at, they will all include something about English language. And it is the second release in the England and Wales census data so should be available this autumn. So the last point to make here is around trust and willingness to disclose some characteristics. So we are in a strange time. There is lots of lack of trust and particular groups may particularly distrust aspects of the questioning. So for some other work I was doing I was just reading on a report by government published this year on gypsies and travellers using 2011 census data. So they go on the baseline of the population then which according to the census was 55,000 around. In fact, what was the actual population based on a number of other sources like accommodation needs assessment was estimated to be 300,000. So a number of people from that community didn't feel willing to disclose that aspect of their identity.  We don't know whether people would disclose things and we don't know what people might feel sensitive about so we've always held to not asking about citizenship in the census. But there may well be some lack of trust from those going through asylum processes or have been through them to disclose those characteristics. So I'm not sure if there are sensitive sensitivity issues about military veteran status. Yeah, I don't know how people feel so I think for those researching in the area, it's something they would need to consider but it's not an area I'm familiar with I'm more familiar with issues around race migration and that kind of set of data. Okay, so that's the kind of issues to consider. So the last part of the presentation is really thinking about what we have to offer. We're clearly not the only provider of training. It's worth noting that many of you probably already know this that we are funded by the ESRC. So the training we provide is free and the materials we provide on the website, etc, free to use. And we will be a key partner in we are a key partner in the delivery of census data and the repository for the more advanced products like flow data and micro data. So we know that some of these may be also be provided by ONS and NOMIS. So these are likely to be available from other sources aggregate data. So to be able to select data, most of you will be familiar with NOMIS or the UK data service. Our interface is being refined. So it will probably look more like the NOMIS type interface and that you will be able to select the variable and see what's available in a in a more friendly window interface than infuse infuse work fine. The geographical data will be available from us and from the ONS geography portal. And then, as I said, for flow data and micro data are likely only available from us in terms of thinking about what we do. I think we think about different audiences and are developing ideas about how we can promote access by a range of audiences. So our core is probably the academic research and teaching establishment. Many of you will come from that background. We are also working with students in HE, but trying to extend our reach out into schools, FE and schools and we will be providing census information and guidance for aimed at school students. In terms of the public sector, we have used by national departments, local health and councils, and we are thinking about gearing some products. I think we'll promote the data service interface fairly soon that the web designs changes are in and they will be pointing you to different places on the UK data service. Where the data is held at the moment they reflect kind of a lot of information that is not about just getting at the data that you want to use. So that redesign of the website is imminent and will provide access. So I'm not sure it's going to be that link you say specifically, but there will be front page access to census data. There will be information where you find census data that will reflect the priority that a lot of people are placing on 2021 data. So I said there's public sector interest and voluntary and community sector interest and we have been talking to key stakeholders in those sectors and thinking about how we can better reach them with materials we have, given that they're free to access. So obviously they have a cost to using them in terms of the organizational capacity. So the kind of things we're doing things like this so just telling people about it. I've done. I've had a series of presentations at conferences in the latest round, including one run by the body be trust which was quite interesting on race and migration. So connected with a non traditional audience for us. We're running a series of how to set sessions linked to the release of the data. So there is a geography session coming up. There's an aggregate data session plan so data and spotlight sensors. So we've talked at the end of October at the moment as flow data and micro data release next year. We'll also be looking at those and alongside that we're interested in thinking about techniques and substantive areas of interest. So, thinking about the kind of things that people might want to ask questions about, and starting from a problem rather than starting from an interface and access to data. So plan some sessions next year, jointly with our NS in some cases, where we're going to look at statistical disclosure control, the courage and imputation and the implications of COVID-19. So those are scheduled. Well, they're not, we haven't got dates yet, but we plan to hold those in spring. Sorry, from early 2023 onwards and the modifiable area aerial unit problem, which, for those of you who aren't aware is the impact of drawing boundaries around particular places and what happens on the edges of those boundaries. An interesting example in London is that the change towards means that the data is based from ONS on a particular way of estimating the GLA have refined that method to use a housing waiting based approach to allocating their ward counts. And in terms of training and materials, we have one more workshop on planning and research design schedule for next week, which is aiming at picking up people who have a clear research idea and want to take part in a kind of focus of thinking about how they might plan that we have a session in November on using census data for teaching and we've been working on developing Excel tools to demonstrate how you can analyze census data and also provide information on how you can create your own analysis using Excel. So I think for us, the branch into Excel is a new one relatively, but is as it's so widely used, particularly outside of the academy, it feels like a space we need to fill because that's the way many, many people will be accessing that data. We'll also be producing documents that will update the release schedule as we get information, doing short video materials to support the training, and we're working on a set of explainers for key census variables. So picking up the new variables and those are quite complex to explain what's there to give details of the categories available, how they're available, how they're planned to be included in multivariate analysis. And in some substantive areas, some of the cautions about using them for particular purposes. And finally, we have a help desk which you can email any query to and they are picked up by people like me, who will address questions you raise. The help desk is has broader functions so if you have issues about accessing the UK data service, etc, there are other parts of the service that will pick that up. But our team pick up the substantive queries will pick up the substantive queries on census issue.