So I'd like to call into session the South Burlington City Council meeting. This conference will now be recorded. Of May 3rd, 2021. And welcome everyone. The first item is any additions, deletions or changes in order of agenda items. Kevin, you thought you might have some, but... Yeah, on the other business agenda, and I'd like to put the memo you got from Justin on Friday for the paving bid. That's normally a consent agenda item. Anyway, you should have the memo from Justin, and I'd like to get that tonight, if possible. Okay. I have one suggestion. I'd like to move item 13, which is a very brief discussion related to the so-called Swift Street extension, and put that in between 11 and 12.  So is that okay with everyone? I think it flows better, it makes more sense. And it's a very brief conversation. Okay. So let's move on to announcements in the city manager's report. So who would... Comments for the public, Helen. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, I almost do that. I'm sorry. Looks like Janet Bellavance would like to make a comment on item not on the agenda. Yes. Hello. Hi. Hi, Helen. My name is Janet Bellavance, and I'm here to talk to you about the climate crisis. Naomi Klein says in her book On Fire, the health of our planet is the single greatest determining factor in the quality of all our lives. I am a retired elementary school teacher. As part of our curriculum, we read biographies to children about people who have had a lasting impact on our world. We chose examples of famous people who have changed the way we think and act. We read about Rachel Carson, author of Silent Spring. Children learned about the food chain through the harmful effects of the chemical DDT on birds. Rachel Carson showed us how humans are connected to nature. Ecosystems have a delicate balance. But an equally important lesson occurred in the book Conversations. Children asked questions in an attempt to understand who holds power and how change happens. They wondered, why did we keep using DDT when we had evidence that it was harmful? Why didn't the chemical company stop making DDT? Children learned that activism can start with one person asking questions about the harmful effects of chemicals and lead to Congress changing our laws. Rachel Carson was a model. We also read about the scientist Galileo who proved that the earth rotates daily and revolves around the sun. This conflicted with what the Catholic Church believed. He was considered a heretic, tried by the inquisition and imprisoned for the remainder of his life. I remember one boy looking perplexed and asking, why didn't people want to change their thinking? Galileo was a model. We read Dr. Seuss, the Lorax, who speaks for the trees, for the trees have no tongues and confronts the once-ler who causes environmental destruction in the name of progress. Children learned that resources are finite and can be exploited. Students learned that we have a responsibility to advocate for those who can't speak, be it the environment, children, or others who are disenfranchised. Why are we teaching these things? We are teaching these things to combat hopelessness, to promote citizen engagement, to empower our children to stand up for what they believe in, to create empathy for other living things, to show them models to emulate, to show them that sometimes the right thing to do is not always the popular or easy thing to do, to show them that sometimes it takes more than facts and scientific evidence to change our thinking. It takes one person who is willing to stand up and do something. And so it should come as no surprise that Greta Thunberg, a 15-year-old Swedish girl, did just that. And in demanding immediate action from world leaders on climate change, Greta painfully reminded us all of our responsibility as stewards of the earth. As Naomi Klein wrote, by far the biggest obstacle we are up against is hopelessness, a feeling that it's all too late, we've left it too long and we'll never get the job done on such short timeline. But the truth is, is that there are tens of thousands of people who have been quietly building local models and road testing policies for how to put justice at the center of our climate response in how we protect forests, generate renewable energy, design public transit and much more. I hope that we can start right here tonight in South Burlington at this city council meeting. I hope that the city council will have the courage to lead us in a direction that addresses the long-term health of our citizens and environment. You can do something about the climate crisis. You can enact strong environmental protections in our new LDRs. We are striving for only the minimal protections. We can do better. You can require all structures to be solar equipped and net zero. You can develop partnerships with large landowners to preserve their land in a mutually beneficial way. You can support creative initiatives to purchase high value natural resource lands. You can incentivize redevelopment of empty commercial buildings for affordable housing units. You can stop all new road construction and increase more and safe pedestrian pathways. You can support tonight's resolution for policymaking to reduce carbon emissions and counteract climate change. You can create a sustainability committee to review all city decisions against their impact on climate change. Take one, some or all of these actions.  Thank you for your service. Thank you, Janet. Are there any other comments or questions from the audience? Okay, seeing none, we'll move on to now. Announcements in the city manager's report. So are there any counselors who have any announcements? Tom is like going away. He's lost so much weight. You can announce that, Tom. You're vanishing. I did mention, I will just thank the South Burlington Boy Scouts, the South Burlington Rotary, the South Burlington Girl Scouts, as well as the Orchard neighborhood for coming out and cleaning up the South Burlington Cemetery and Shelbert Road. We had about 30 volunteers. We spent three hours and cleared a lot of rush and Craig Lambert with our city arborists came in through the next day and picked up a lot of the hard work of those volunteers. So I think it was a really productive day and the cemetery looks a lot better. Excellent, thank you. Tim, do you have a report? Oh, I'm sorry. No.  I just wanted to second Thomas's comments. I participated in the green up day and found a remarkable amount of dumped items that normally should not be left in our natural areas. And I just wanted to say that it was very well organized, that they let people go where they wanted to, but once we got back with our things, they wanted to know where we had been so that they could report it. And I thought that it ran very well and the weather cooperated, the gray skies cleared and it ended up being a really beautiful mid to late morning for us all to get out there and to do some green up. So it was a good day. So thank you very much, the Rotary. I thought that it was very successful. Great, thank you. Anyone else? Okay, well, I've been kind of busy. I did, I didn't work at the cemetery, but I was a weed warrior in Underwood and worked with a number of people and continued to cut back the invasives and learn a lot. It was nice because there were some new faces there. So it's a growing tribe, I guess. I also participated in green up day.  So I think perhaps people aren't drive, I mean, didn't not perhaps, but people weren't commuting as much in the last year. So what I mostly found was beer cans, most of which were flattened. So I think they'd been around for maybe a year. I got a parliament cigarette smoker that goes back and forth, I guess, and throws out as empty or empty boxes of cigarettes, but nothing really surprising except parts of a car. When they had all these plastic cars, they used to be the big chunk on metal would get ripped off, but now cars disintegrate and it's a real mess. I also attended a meeting with Megan and Kevin and Chief Burke and remind me of the woman's name, Megan, on parallel justice. Yeah, her name is Sue Connelly. Connelly. And so we had, I thought, a really good conversation about a situation that she had raised and we had briefly chatted about before the pandemic and has lots of things that fell through the cracks. So that's been reinstigated. And once again, talking with the chief and hearing his comments on justice and how to really, I think, run a top notch police department and being very sensitive to a lot of issues and forward thinking. I was just once again blown away with how well spoken he is and how thoughtful and engaged she is with both the community and his own officers on a lot of these issues. So we made a fantastic hire with him. Megan. I want to second that and also say that Sue Connelly is an amazing citizen of South Burlington who not only asked us to address her particular concerns but also provided support and information that could help us address broader concerns that fall under an umbrella where her concerns could be addressed as well. I just, she came to that meeting with information that we could act on and I expect that this council will see something moving forward. So I just want to also express my thanks both to the chief and to Sue Connelly and to Lisa Bedinger. All right, that's right. Lisa was there as well, I'm sorry. And Tom, one of the things we talked about was sort of the rental registry and how that might be a vehicle to really help our community deal with situations with houses that don't always need or require police intervention that there's other ways to handle that. So it was something that I hope the council will take up at some point. And I also attended one of the CCRPC listening evenings on the interchange. So that's what's kept me busy. Kevin. Matt, you didn't, did you have anything? Okay. Thanks, Helen. A number of things here. Pleased to report that the city hall and city clerks office and the library are back open again. So staff were all back in for the most part today and we anticipated only getting better moving forward. So it's great to have everybody back. We're hearing from VLCT that they expect that half of the ARPA funds will be received in the communities on May 10th, on or about May 10th and that the treasury department is expected to issue rules and how funding can be spent at about the same time. So recall that we're supposed to get half the funds right away and then the rest half by the end of the year. So we're anxious to find out what the treasury department is gonna say we can use those funds for. Two meetings this week, you have your tour tomorrow night at 180 Market Street, the new public library and city hall and then Thursday, of course, you have a special meeting which will largely be executive session. We're still looking at the end of May for the reappraisal numbers to be published. As I reported the last time, the contractors also are working for Burlington and Burlington's had some issues that they want to address differently than was originally thought and that has pushed us back but Martha still thinks we're gonna have our numbers available for the public by the end of the month. Lou Brezee has come up with a novel idea for solar at Airport Parkway and it's a way that we might be able to reduce our own electrical costs and the school district's electrical costs. I'll have more to report on that at another time but we're trying to set up a meeting with the school or the superintendent right now. Also, as I reported to you and that you saw in my email today, the effort that Helen has led for approximately two years now, I think Helen to achieve an MOU between the three cities, South Burlington and Wenuski and Burlington has now been completed. I signed the document today and the mayors of Burlington and Wenuski did too. So it's now in place and now we've got to start looking at implementation. So lastly, there's a rapidly changing story about tax increment financing in the legislature. Tom's side of the building had completed a bill and sent it over to the house. And now the Ways and Means Committee has completely ripped out the core section of the bill. So it's getting toward the end of the legislative session, these sorts of things start to happen. We'll see what will occur with that but it looked like the bill was moving toward restricting our ability to change our boundaries of the TIF district and we'll just have to see where that goes. So, oh lastly, we got our biannual, if that means every other year rather than twice a year, biannual letter from the CCRPC that our appointment is up for our CCRPC commissioner this year, every two years. And your appointee is Chris Shaw, the CCRPC board. I've reached out to Chris to find out whether or not he's interested in continuing in that role and he is. So this is something that you should address at your meeting on May 17th. They'd like an answer from us by the end of May. And so you can advise me under other business perhaps as to how you'd like to proceed with that. But it should be on your agenda then. I understand he was elected vice chair as well. Yeah. Which is something that we had been hoping for getting a little more leadership position for South Burlington and the CCRPC. Yeah. So he is elected for that role. So it would be a little awkward if you didn't reappoint him, but that's still your decision. So anyway, that's all I've got. Tom? Yeah. So Kevin, thank you for that report. We've exchanged the emails, but for the benefit of those that are watching on YouTube, would you go down or discuss, speak to some of the public service announcements and planning that you've been talking about regarding the amazing amount of dog excrement that we are seeing throughout the city that many residents have been reaching out and have been social media activity on. They want us to address this through different means. Would you be willing to speak to that a little bit? Yeah, Tom, thank you very much for raising that issue. So very good point. We are embarking on a public service announcement campaign around cleaning up after your dog and also keeping your dog on a leash where that's required. So it's a two-fold campaign. Helen taped the first commercial that appeared in city news this past week. There'll be another one in the next city news. We're gonna be taking out some ads in the newspaper, but it just seems like this year it's gotten much worse of people just not picking up after their dogs. You know, we're all adults. We should be able to figure this out. You can find these bags everywhere. You can put them in trash cans or take them to your home, but it's really getting out of control and it's not only affecting people as they encounter these on our paths and in our forests and stuff. It's also bad for our water quality, particularly in a place like Red Rocks, but other places as well. So we all have to put our adult pants on here and pick up after our animals. And we're gonna be pushing that aggressively throughout the summer. But also I don't wanna lose the other issue which is the dogs on the leash, particularly Red Rocks, Wheeler, we continue to hear problems about that. And so please, anybody listening out there, please, please keep fight-o on the leash when you're in those places. We realize the frustration of the public that we don't have the new dog park built yet. The location that was chosen has some wetland issues. We're still working with the Army Corps of Engineers on that and Justin's doing the best he can to expedite this, but we need to make sure we do it right. And so hopefully later in the spring or in the summer, you'll see that under construction. Anyway, thanks for bringing that up, Tom. I appreciate it. Well, I think those are issues that with an activated dog park committee, we can maybe think of some and adopt or consider maybe some creative ways to meet the needs of everyone. I mean, I know I was just out in Salt Lake City and on the foothills around Salt Lake where it's a different place and it's much larger, but during COVID with so many people running and biking and walking their dogs have cut a whole bunch of new trails, but they've also identified days of the week where dogs can run free or off leash and other times they have to be on leash or they're not allowed on the trails on Tuesday and Thursday because that's the day when bikers or hikers don't have to worry about dogs. I mean, I think there's a number of things we might consider that could meet the demands of all our residents in a more creative way because people with large dogs, I mean, Matt, your dog likes to run a little bit anyway, right?  A lot of dogs that like to run a lot and we have big piece of property, so it's not a problem, but not everyone has that. And so, but I also recognize that people can be really frightened of dogs. So maybe there's some creative ways to have certain trails open on different days of the week or whatever, so we kind of know that ahead of time. Anyway, okay, no more comments? Matt, did you have a comment? Oh, okay, I just sort of thought I saw your like go on, okay, so let's move on to item four, the consent agenda. Kevin, are we not dealing with B? No, go ahead and deal with B tonight. Justin's had some good conversations with our colleagues in Williston, he's here to answer any questions you have. I've also talked to the town manager, so I think you can go ahead and proceed with this, with this discussion. Justin, would you concur with that? Yep, he's gonna sum up, okay. So the consent agenda has three items. The disbursements award bids for the annual paving contract and the Kimball Avenue culvert project and designate and convey a burial plot at the city cemetery on Silver Road. I'd entertain a motion for approval of A, B, and C. So, I just want to ask you a question, Justin, before we, I mean, I guess I can do it after you make a motion, but set a clarification on the culvert bridge project.  Good idea, absolutely. So, are you seconding, Megan, second? Okay, so Matt, you have a question for Justin about the culvert? Yeah, the memo, Justin, just said, Williston, who's splitting the cost, 50-50 wants to take a second look. Does that mean they want to examine existing bids or is that, are you inferring, or was the memo inferring that they want to rebid it? There were all of those discussions occur, reexamining bids, rebidding. However, as of mid-morning today, we reached a conclusion with them, because this was kind of developing over the weekend, so we had to put a couple of modifiers in the memo as we were working on it. But Williston is in agreement with us. They have their select board meeting tomorrow night, at which time they'll be giving their recommendation to their select board as well. The bids came in a little higher as you saw. We just wanted to make sure that once all the dust settled, each community need what our maximum amount of pocket exposure would be, we're extremely hopeful that we still have roughly $360,000 in outstanding grants that we hope to be awarded. And once that doesn't happen, certainly on the South Brompton side, we can afford it. And if Williston has some issues, we can help them through those. But if we are awarded the grant, it becomes a no-brainer for Williston. Physically. Yeah, and just to reiterate, I mean, which I think we all know to be true, that given what's happening in regards to materials, that your assumption that any rebidding process would come up with higher numbers, I think is accurate. So. Yeah, a combination of just the rising escalation of any fabrication materials, as well as, as Kevin reported earlier, we expect a lot of money to be hitting the streets. Through the various stimulus bills. That's going to drive competition in the wrong direction if you're trying to buy services. So while we weren't excited with these good results, we don't see sitting around and waiting another year, forgetting for the fact that neither of us, no one wants to deal with that bridge for another year. But we don't think the climate will be more favorable here for them. Okay, thank you. Are there any other questions or discussion? You ready for the vote? Okay, all in favor of the consent agenda, signified by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Okay, that appears to be five zero and the motion carries. Moving on to item five. I see Carly has joined us and she is going to report and discuss the summit employers health center slight slash captive insurance model. So Coralie, welcome. Hi there. I think this is one of the first times I've seen you in a year. No, it's been a long time. So I'll be glad when we can all see each other in person again. Thanks for letting me come on and talk about the health center and what we're doing about healthcare costs in the city right now. So I do have a presentation. So I am going to share my screen. I'll probably turn my camera off while we're doing that just in case bandwidth. So hold on and let's make sure you guys can see my screen. Share. Okay. Can you guys see the PowerPoint screen? Yes. Fantastic. Okay. So last year, we've been talking about a health center to address healthcare costs in the city for at least two years prior to us opening the health center. And last year in July, we opened a health center at one Kennedy drive. And we opened it in the midst of the pandemic which could be a good thing or a bad thing. We found it to be very helpful actually and I'll talk about that in a minute. But healthcare costs as some of you know have continued to go up in the city and I think Tom would correct me perhaps if I have this wrong but maybe even doubled in the last eight to 10 years the cost. And so one of the things that we decided to do was try to control some of those costs by employing a health center and also going into a captive arrangement which means we're self-insured. So this slide that I have up shows a little bit at the top where we have family members, our employees in the city. Previously they would just go to the doctor or whatnot it would go through our health insurance. Now what we've done is because we're self-insured we see more of the details of not the personal details of any individuals but we can see what folks are going for and we can start to address some of the health concerns that might be in our population. So on this slide you'll see the family members they have two options right now that we open the health center. They have the name of the health center is Summit Employers Health Center. It is run by Marathon Health which is based in Winooski and I'm gonna tell you a little bit about them but the other option here is that insurance is through CBA Blue which means that we're self-insured and we have some reinsurance and ways to help control the costs which I'm not gonna get into tonight but I wanted to give you this overview that the health center is sort of a place for us to work on health coaching but we still have all of the other options of traditional healthcare with the difference truly being in how we pay for it. So when we went to Marathon Health Marathon Health has a core component to who they are and they serve about 350,000 people across the nation I think they have about 155 health centers. Most of them are one employer with for example they have 7-Eleven and so they have health centers where folks who work at 7-Eleven can go to and other states obviously not here in Vermont but they also have shared health centers and that's what we have here in South Burlington and so we have formed a partnership with VSAC Hickok and Boardman and with TwinCraft and so the four of us have come together and opened the health center. So what Marathon Health is focused on is identifying risks in our population and you can see here for yourself where they sort of get that information. They mitigate the risk and we'll walk through this a little bit so that our employees are forming new healthy behaviors and then also maybe choosing different places where they might obtain healthcare and in the end we have improved health for our employees but we're also capturing some savings for the city both by having healthier employees but perhaps treating folks in a different way. So that's what we bought into with Marathon Health. So here's the- Can I just quickly interrupt and ask you can other organizations join at a later date? Yeah, good question Helen. So I'm glad you asked that. We started in July with just the city VSAC and Hickok and Boardman knowing that we were having conversations with TwinCraft and TwinCraft didn't join until September and we are still looking for one more partner so I'm still doing work. We'll have another session in about a month to talk with other employers. There are several that are still looking to be engaged in a shared model but there may be also an opportunity for others to come together to have another health center and if that's the case, perhaps we could have a couple in the area that we could share services. So yes, still looking for partners and for this to potentially be bigger than just us to really to make a change in healthcare delivery. Thank you. You're welcome. So scope of services you can see here these are the types of things that they focus on. One thing I wanna say about primary care is that this is not a replacement for primary care physicians. However, if you have a cold or something doesn't feel right or whatnot you can go into the health center and you can go home that day with some antibiotics or whatnot. So they do help with that. Also, if you have a regular prescription we carry those pharmaceuticals in the health center you could actually have that processed right at the health center. So, but the focus truly is on prevention, wellness, managing disease and I wanna indicate right now we don't have ancillary physical therapy on site through the health center but that is something down the road where we're looking at a partnership with direct contracting. We do have behavioral health and I'll touch on that in a minute. So here's just one more look at the health center offerings you can see that there's obvious care assessments. If you have to have blood work drawn employees can go into the health center and have that done. Coaching, you can see the variety of things that folks might be coached on for better health. And then of course there's online place for where they draw in if your health record perhaps at UVM medical center or your physician. So there's one place where they can see your full physical history. So here were some of the goals when we chose to move forward with the health center. We wanted to support our employees in a culture of health and wellbeing. We wanted to strengthen what we had for our benefits because it's really about wellness. If we're gonna contain healthcare costs we really need to focus on what's causing someone to have an incident or to be on medication those types of things. So we wanted to add to that. Also address the increasing costs obviously and provide tools to improve our employees overall health. So what's great about the health center is it's easy access. You can be there from anywhere in the city in minutes. You can schedule an appointment. Sometimes you can get an appointment same day especially if you need something like a COVID test and they're doing testing. You can get scheduled fairly immediately for that. Let's see, you get more time with your provider. So I'm gonna talk a little bit about the comprehensive health review. But when you go in, you're not going in for seven to eight minutes or spend more time in the waiting room than you do speaking to your provider. But instead when you do a comprehensive health review she spends about 90 minutes going through everything with you. And most sessions are scheduled for 30 minutes and that's the entire time you're spending with the provider. Let's see. And the focus is truly on coaching. So it's really about changing behavior and not just trying to treat the symptom at the moment. So, and there's very little cost to the employee because we're paying for this as part of our comprehensive healthcare package. There is like a co-pay for some things of like $25, but for the most part, there's virtually no cost to the employees. So instead of them going to their primary care just to get a prescription because they have a sinus infection they can get it taken care of at the health center. And since we're now self-insured that helps save us money. Here are the three folks we have on staff at the employer's health center and Christina is our nurse practitioner. So she's our main medical provider. We also have Damir Alisa who is a licensed mental health counselor and Angela Holm, she's our medical assistant. So if you're scheduling time for a comprehensive health review or you're going in because you don't feel well, Christina is the person you would see. Damir is focused on behavioral health. And so both of them, I don't know, Kevin and Tom have both been and if Justin's still on, I mean, folks have been to the health center so they can let you know how the experience is different. But we've had very good reviews about the friendliness, the time that people take. And I was hopeful Christina could join us tonight to share some of what she's experiencing but unfortunately that didn't work out so maybe in the future. But these are the three folks who are serving our population. And so I just wanna walk through for a minute. If you wanna look at this slide, I know it looks busy but what we're doing with folks and what we've been doing over the last nine months, 10 months is in this red section. So you'll see identifying health risks and doing health assessments, having biometric screening which is checking for cholesterol and all the blood draw and your pulse and your weight and just getting a baseline. And I'm just gonna skip to the next slide for a second so I can talk about this. You'll see three steps to wellness. In July, we put out to our employees that they could be incentivized to go in and have a health risk assessment. You answer a questionnaire and then to have your biometrics taken and also you provide some medical history and the health risk assessment. You go through all of that with Christina and she will identify things in there that may be things that you need to be focused on let alone the fact that you may say, I wanna lose 20 pounds or I'm having a hard time sleeping at night or stresses bother me, whatever it may be. That's sort of a starting point and we started doing that last July and by December we had approximately half of our employees had completed this step. So that's huge for us because I will show you in a moment the data that shows what happens after that. So this is sort of where we start the process is with that three steps to wellness and then when you start health coaching with whether it's Christina alone or Christina and Damir and you start to develop the new healthy behaviors. So we're sort of in that red place with some employees but moving on to the purple phase in our journey with our employees. So again, back to this slide this just as a couple of the challenges. So there's constantly information coming from the health center about a variety of things including walking, mindfulness. I know we, with all of our department heads and managers we during a regular meeting we took 10 minutes to just have a moment to like, pause and Damir led us through a mindfulness exercise that we could use anytime moving forward. So trying to incorporate those healthy behaviors both in demonstrating it at work but also to give us tools when we're not at work. This particular slide shows over the next year the different types of sort of lunch and learns and challenges that are going on. So you can see that there's a bunch of things on here like how to have a healthy holiday and maintain your weight but don't gain weight during the holidays. There's skin safety in July about drinking enough water wearing your sunscreen, detoxing from social media. So there's a lot of topics that they're gonna focus on that isn't just about, you know, lose 20 pounds. There's other things here. So I wanted to give you just a little bit of data without too many numbers to overwhelm anybody but this is the encounters, so the visits and since we opened in a pandemic the health center has been virtually closed unless you need to go in for acute care or you're going for a COVID test and in the case of a COVID test, you're outside being swabbed but most of this has been done virtually. So the fact that we've had such adoption and it being virtual really speaks to the quality of care that folks are getting. And what you'll see on this slide is for most months we've had, you know, at least 30 people of our own employees going in to use the health center. So the blue is employees. We also spouse, our partners and children are also eligible to use the health center. And so you'll see that the green is spouses and the teal is children. So it's being well utilized. And then of our total population who are engaged there's a couple of things here. The blue means those folks who are engaged in coaching activities that means they're meeting with Christina or Demir on a regular basis to work on some component of their healthcare. The green includes acute care. So if there's, you know, someone's got a cold they could go in for that. And the teal is labs. So if you're going in to have blood draws and I think labs may include COVID testing. So let me just pause for a second. We did during the pandemic the health center has been a huge plus for us. They have done things like they developed a self-assessment questionnaire that we do on the app on our phone or on the computer before we come to work to ask those questions. Have you traveled? Do you have a cough? Do you have this? And we get that report daily to make sure that before people come in it self-notifies, hey, you checked to know to this you can't come to work, contact the health center. So they have been our point of contact for managing folks coming and going from the workplace and they've been managing for the most part our testing. And the process is before someone can come back to work if there had been an exposure or travel they have to go through the health center to be cleared and that has really helped us manage keeping our population safe. I just throw this in here because the gray bar here that shows when Marathon Health has a clinic that's near and not directly on campus they typically have average visits of 2.6 from a participant and we're already at 3.4. So our folks are actively using the health center as well as our partners you can see are also actively using it. This part of the slide just sort of shows a breakdown of how many people have been in for one visit, two visits all the way up to six. This is important, this is a really important slide because what it shows is this blue shows that we have screened 70 people in our population and we have data on them. Now why it says no data and again remember this includes employees and spouses is because we've been not self-insured so we had no access to data to know do we have a problem with folks being pre-diabetic? Do we have a problem with heart disease? Now that we have screened folks we now have that information. So we can tailor the type of care or the health center can tailor the type of care to those folks. Now this orange piece says of the 70 who were screened 76% of them present with some sort of a high and chronic condition that might be diabetes it might be obesity, it might be depression, pre-diabetes, heart conditions. That's a very high, very high number. Now again, it's only on a portion of our population and so as we get more data that might skew down a bit but it does mean that we are at least seeing those folks. Can I just, I'm sorry to interject here but if I were an employee I would feel uncomfortable with this information being projected on the screen. I just had to interject my voice here because health information can be prejudicial. I mean, I appreciate why you're showing us this information corally. You wanna show that it's really useful for our employees to have this kind of preventative care and that I fully appreciate but I just with regard to their conditions I'd rather you skip over those slides and I'm sorry to have to voice that concern. I know it's nothing you intended to do. It's just my feeling. Megan, we don't know who the employees are. This is the reason I'm acting in the numbers. I understand, I understand but I just, I'm very sensitive to privacy issues here and we don't have that big of a pool of employees. So it's just. I'm being over cautious and Helen, it's your, of course, you're braggartive to have Coralie continue. Well, I would like her to continue but if you feel this slide is too, have you completed your comments about this? The only additional comment Helen was just that of those folks who are in the high and chronic condition 75% of them are engaged in health coaching. So we're making an impact to help them have, you know, better habits towards their wellness. That's good news for sure. And then I just, I think I have two more slides and then we'll be done. I'll skip this one but basically it goes into the conditions that we have and they and how we're affecting them all above where the benchmarks are. So this goes to money and I wanted to give you a little bit of an idea of the savings that we're having. So since July 1st, these two numbers which total about $60,000 is money that's been redirected or potentially saved by not going to the emergency room, not going to have specialty care visits, a physical therapy, things that we've been able to take care of at the health center. So that's $60,000 in redirected care that's being handled that we're already paying for that we're not paying additionally. In addition, we have another $60,000 that looks at what present about having folks be at work if there's injuries and how we're managing that. So if you look at what we call the hard dollars above 60,000 and then a little bit of the soft dollars which is about another 60,000, that's $120,000 that we could potentially say is being saved by going through the health center or not incurred by having the health center. Since July 1st. Since July 1st, correct. And the monthly cost of that service is, what was it, 40,000 a month? Something along that, yes. And again, remember Tim, we're not a full year in yet and there'll be more data coming but to look at it from a financial standpoint but I wanted to give you a little bit of a flavor of the quick numbers that we had. And so just to wrap up, I wanted to share sort of what's next. Remember at the beginning, I said the health center was a component of how we're trying to contain costs and have better wellness for folks. These are some of the other areas in July we'll be bringing on, you've heard of Kelly Blue Book for your cars to see what the value of your cars are. We're gonna have healthcare Blue Book and we're gonna be looking at what the costs of, it lists what the cost of say getting an MRI is at the hospital versus an open MRI and whether the quality is high or not. And you can decide to choose where you go to have your test or to have procedures done and that'll be tied in with the health center so they can help determine that. So it could be a difference of $3,000 for an MRI at the health center or at the hospital to $600 at open MRI. So that's another way for our employees to help manage the healthcare costs and still get the best quality. So we'll be introducing that in July. And the others, we're gonna have access to data. Again, nobody's information is shared with us. That's by HIPAA, I never see it. Nobody sees it at the city, but the data that is carved up will let us know where are the areas we need to educate people on. And then the other two speak for themselves, direct contracting with folks like the Surgical Center and then medical tourism. If it's cheaper to go to Glen Falls to have something done, then we may do that. But all of this is a different way of getting better outcomes for our employees and maintaining healthcare costs. So with that, I'm gonna stop sharing my screen and quickly see if anybody has any questions because I think I'm out of time. Okay. Where do I start? You have some questions, Jim? Well, I just wanna say, thanks for the... I mean, I'm sure it's been a lot of work to implement this program. And it appears to be saving money will tell long term. But the sad commentary is that it's really pathetic that in this country, that's the way we have to try to administer healthcare because we're like the only developed country that hasn't figured out how to do it right.  It's sad. The fact that somebody can have an HSA and then be able to invest it in the stock market, why, I mean, that's not part of your discussion, I understand, but that's just another symptom of what's wrong with the whole healthcare system. And we're very fortunate to live somewhere where we have excellent healthcare facilities around us. A lot of people don't. And we have a lot of very able, medical professionals around us as well, but the city's trying to contain its healthcare cost by doing this different thing. And every three or four years, there's a different approach that people try to take to cut their healthcare costs. And it's just, it's really sad that we can't figure this out. So I wish, I hope it's successful. Okay, good points. I spent 20 years trying to figure it out. It's complicated. Okay. Any other questions or comments? Thank you very much, Coralie. You're welcome. So we'll move on to item six. We have six minutes before we have to go into a public hearing on IZ. A lot of Blanchard and Tom, we're going to talk about the submittal of an application to the Vermont bond bank for the summer round. Do you guys think you can do that? No, you can probably do that. Okay. All right. Well, you sent us all the materials. So, okay, good enough. Yeah. Good evening for the record, Alana Blanchard, community development director. So obviously in March, the public voted on funding for Garden Street and in 2018, earlier than that, sorry. No, the public also voted on the library, city hall and city center. So the Vermont bond bank is holding its summer bond pool. So they have a call out to municipalities and other governmental entities to raise debt to fund capital improvement projects. And because interest rates are severely low at this point and indications are that they are going to slowly rise over time, we wanted to sort of put our foot in the door and recommend that the council authorize us to submit the application for debt. This is not your actual authorization. The council will have an opportunity to vote on all of the legal documents related to the bond. We do not have to set the terms at this point or the actual amounts, but we wanted to make sure that you're aware that there's this opportunity, we've prepared an application and we have provided it to the bond bank, but we have not signed it in order to put this before you. So essentially it covers segment A and C, which were voted on for Garden Street. And it's the full, what we have in the application at the moment is the full amount that we estimate Garden Street would cost and any excess for that could be rolled into either design work or actual construction work for the third segment, which is the White Street segment. And then also as a placeholder, but most likely the recommended amount, we have $700,000 for 180 Market Street. For that project, we've already bonded for 19 million in debt and that leaves us 1.4 million out of the 20.4 million that has not been issued in debt. And we have been holding off on that remaining amount because once we have the full project cost at the end of the project in terms of all the construction costs minus FF&E and moving, then we can apply all of our eligible cost ratios for the library, city hall and senior center against that total cost and then divide it between tax increment, finance, eligible cost versus the city share of the cost. And we estimate that to finance portion is about three to 500,000 additional. And so we don't wanna take out the full debt amount until we have that number. So that's why we're recommending 700 at this time. Okay. Are there questions? Any additional information from Tom or did O'Lana get all the points we needed to hear? I think O'Lana's covered it really well. All right. So what we want is a motion to authorize the submittal of an application to the Vermont bond bank for the summer bond pool. And to, I guess also, was that an additional consideration that you're gonna actually sign it tomorrow? But they already agreed to that. So that doesn't have to be in the motion. No, that's more informational. Okay, so Megan? Yeah, so moved, Helen. And then Tom is second. Okay. Is there any additional discussion? Tom, Tim, excuse me. Is this the kind of summer pool that Tom would like to have? I'm sorry about that. Well, he might like to own a pool like this. I don't know. All right, so there's no further discussion. I'll have a roll call on this because it's a pretty big deal. So Megan Emery, hi. And Thomas Chittenden, hi. And Nakota, hi. And Tim Barrett, hi. And the chair votes, hi. So this is past five, zero. And you did it in four minutes. Thank you. Thank you very much for all your hard work. These applications are pretty complicated. Will you be there tomorrow night, Elana? I will. So I'll see you all at 6.20, looking forward to it. And so do we need to sign that or is it just your signature or? Kevin will sign it. Okay, great. All right. Thank you. Thank you very much. So see you tomorrow night in person even. Woohoo. Okay, moving on to item seven. This is the public hearing and possible council action on the extension of interim zoning bylaws at 7.30. So Amanda Lafferty, is she? Yep, she's arrived. Do you need to make comments or should we just open the public hearing first? It's fine to open the public hearing first. Okay, so do I have a motion to open a public hearing for the purpose of considering extending the interim bylaws for a time period not to exceed beyond November 3rd? So. Yeah, 2021. Second. I'll second. Okay, move and second it. So we have opened this public hearing. We have to vote aye. Right. Yes, all in favor? Aye. Aye. So the meeting is open. So Amanda, did you want to do any preliminary or do we just want to make this real quick or? I can just, the council last considered this in November when the council said, okay, we will extend the duration of the interim bylaws for six months. And with the possibility of two, three month extensions. So that November 2020 extension through extends until May 13th of 2021. And so the question is whether the council wants to extend it for another three month time period. It is, I think the planning commission and council are very close to finishing up at least one round of permanent bylaws. I think you are going to find out more in the next agenda item. So that's the question is whether to extend it further. And because we are getting close to the end of interim bylaws, the one thing I wanted to kind of highlight in the memo was just that, if amendments to the permanent amendments, or any permanent amendments to the land development regulations that are not adopted before an interim bylaw either is expires or is repealed, then that could, that will, that will basically mean that any development that is prohibited under the interim bylaw would not be prohibited and potentially wouldn't, depending on the chronology of events, but if there's not an overlap essentially between going straight from the interim bylaws into permanent bylaws, then there will be a gap essentially in applicability that applications that potentially would not be something that would be approved by the council under the interim bylaw could, would be able to proceed as long as that they could comply with the land development regulations, whatever those are that are in effect. Okay, so I think the sense was that I understood from the councils we wanted to extend the interim bylaws to November 13th with the expectation that all of the work will be done. So that's what we can vote on tonight. That's more than three months from May. So, so is that the wishes of the council? Tom? Yeah, that's my understanding, but I feel like what I just heard Amanda say is that on November 13th, we will not have the option to extend beyond that. So that's the hard deadline, the way it's written in Vermont state statute. So these changes have to be approved by the council before then or else we revert back to whatever was in place before interim zoning. And I'm fine with that. Let's just, let's do the whole three years and be done with it. So I'm fine with extending to November. So I need two years with the option. No, the two years, they were initially adopted in November, 2018. And also the three years. Okay. Yeah. And, and, you know, one thing to, I didn't raise this, but under title 24 of state law, yes, the council is limited to, you know, that absolute maximum time period is the extra year beyond the initial two year time period. And, but there, there could potentially be, you know, COVID related extensions, but again, I, just so you are aware of the options, but I, I, if you. Well, hopefully we won't have to utilize any options that the work will get done and that's our anticipation. So I, just FYI as well, assuming that any permanent bylaws, amendments to the land of unregulations already before November 13th, then the council can repeal the interim bylaws at a time where it will work with any, the public hearing on any proposed amendments. Yes. Okay. So. Yes. Yes. I think just it's really important that we, we not insert that type of uncertainty by introducing what you offered there, the possibility of COVID extension. Let's just November 13th of three years. Let's get this done. Because I don't want to have a situation where we try to extend it. The developer then fights us in court saying we didn't have the right to extend it. So I think November 13th is the, is the date that we should just be committed to as a council to finish this. I don't know if you all agree or not, but it just makes sense to not introduce any uncertainty or ambiguity past November 13th, regardless of COVID. I'm there at this time, Tom. I'm there at this time. Okay. Tim Barrett and then Matt. Yeah. Just a quick technical question, Amanda. So if the LDRs were ready. And they had been warned and once, once changes, the LDRs are worn, they're effectively law, right? That's right there. They will be applied for 150 days. And then if the, the council does not end up adopting those amendments, then they will not be applied anymore. But yes, that essentially they are in effect, and they apply to land development for a fairly long time period while the council considers and presumably adopts the. Okay. All right. So the point is, is that if, if that were to happen, we would want to repeal IZ after that fact, right? Like not before we would want to remove IZ once we had something in place that we were comfortable with, right?  The permanent and then any amendments, but that can be, as we get closer, we'll consider that and try and figure out, okay, what's the best way to go about this? So that's right. And there's a comment also now I'll let you ask your question, Matt, from Jessica Luizos that they need to be warned for public hearing by the city council. And then there's 150 days. It's not the warning by the planning commission. So just to clarify those timelines. Tim, are you done? You got your question answered? Okay. Matt. Yes. While I'm reticent to extend in terms only again, there's a lot of merit to what Thomas suggested. As anyone on the DRB knows, having to enforce multiple set of bylaws is a tricky, sticky wicket in terms of determining, you know, what applies and what doesn't. I am in favor of extending until November 13th with the idea that we can have all of the work, the good work that the planning commission has done reviewed and finalized before then. Okay. Thank you. Are there comments since this is a public hearing, are there comments from the public? There were some comments in the chat room. Sandy Dooley was supportive and Ray Gonda. Was supportive. Of extending it. Is there any other comments people wish to make? All right. Are you ready for. Do we make that motion? Does someone make the motion? I'm sorry. Okay. Motion to close the public hearing. If there's. Okay. So moved and seconded by. Second. Okay. By Megan. All in favor of closing the public hearing signified by, or by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. That's unanimous. We're out of public. The public hearings. So we have a. We have a motion to extend the interim zoning to November. I will move to extend interim zoning to November 13th. And just I want to add a comment that I was originally opposed to interim zoning for all the reasons previously stated, but the pandemic really did pause things. And I, I think this makes sense. So let's wrap this up. And November 13th, go planning commission. Please give us some stuff to vote on and we'll move forward. So there's my motion. Okay. And seconded. Second. Okay. So you're ready for that vote. Okay. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. It appears it's five zero. So that has been. Approved. Thank you. Thank you, Amanda. All right. Moving on to. Item nine, which is council discussion and possible action. We have a motion to extend the interim zoning to November 13th. And we have a motion to extend the interim zoning to November 13th. And we have a motion related to qualifications to serve on a self-growing to. Excuse me. Board commission or committee. And you should have received. A. A copy of the resolution. A resolution. Yeah. I teal this off, Helen. Sure. I was contacted by Sandy Dooley. She's a high schooler. Who is quite remarkable and has done research. On housing and equity. And I wasn't able to attend her. Presentation to the CVO. But I was able to watch it afterwards. And she presented in 15 minutes of a very nutshell presentation. So. And I'm very excited about that. So. Housing policy has excluded certain populations and in particular. Populations of color. From the same. What I want to say standards of living. That many of us enjoy. And that. Is equivalent to. Or, or it. It leads to inequities with regard to education. And so on and so forth generation after generation. It was an excellent presentation. And I have invited Manel to present to this council, which I hope she can do in two weeks time. When she will also be a candidate. For the affordable housing committee. And that led to a question. Whether or not. Minors. Could be members. Of our committees. And, um, and so, uh, Sandy Julie sent me the bylaws, which. I mean, the, the charter. Um, and she noted that there was nothing precluding, nothing preventing a minor from serving. And, and so I gave it some thought. Um, and I also met with Bruce Wilson, who was our chill out center director. He's currently involved in art. So wonderful. Um, and asked him his thoughts, and this was after he just, by coincidence, can't contacted me because he had the same idea and not knowing anything about. Uh, Manel or, or, you know, the, the efforts to have Manel be a member of our affordable housing committee. And he sent to me a copy of a resolution. Uh, that Burlington had considered in 2003. Uh, well, Bruce and I met on Wednesday. Um, and discussed. Uh, you know what this would look like. And he shared with me, uh, just the, the importance of including, uh, youth who, uh, have a stake in, in their, you know, in their communities for their own future. And so we discussed various aspects such as, you know, should there just be, you know, the possibility or should there be. Uh, you know, something written into the, the language that would allow for that youth, uh, that person to have a peer. And he agreed that to, um, limiting it to two would be useful so that there could be a peer. And I think that it's important for there not to be, you know, the so-called token, uh, member. Um, he also agreed that it would be important for this person to be, or people to be, uh, voting members. Um, he also agreed that because of the sensitive nature of executive sessions where we're talking about legal contracts or, or, um, you know, employees, that that would not be appropriate for, for minors to, to take part in. Uh, and so I was, you know, thinking about all of this and I was in touch with Manel and touched with her mentor, teacher, Christy Lundy at the South Burlington High School who, uh, left a message on my answering machine stating that this would be a wonderful opportunity for their outstanding students. Uh, that Manel is one of them and that because, uh, the, uh, community service is integrated into the graduation requirements for South Burlington High School. This would be a very meaningful internship, uh, possibility for outstanding students. And then we received an email. I believe we all received that email from Kevin Dorn, uh, about, um, a legal resident non-citizen who was applying to the DRB, um, slash, uh, and I can't remember the second, the second possibility off the top of my head. Bicycle and pedestrian. Bicycle and pedestrian committee. And I thought, well, let's put this all together in one resolution. And so I, I added that to the resolution. And I, I would leave it as such. I, I am willing to answer questions about it, but I thought it was important for there not to be quotas. Um, I thought that the question regarding, uh, who could attend an executive session and who could therefore vote based on what was learned in an executive session would be enough, uh, direction to any future council and how many members, uh, of any city committee board or commission should be not privy to that information. I am not in favor of quotas, except for having a peer and for there not to be, you know, a quote unquote token. Um, I believe that the members of our population who fit into those categories, um, would be judged just like every member of our community based on their qualifications, uh, based on their, their level of commitment, uh, and their availability, um, that we seek as a council of balance. Uh, we seek diversity that we know that diversity is a strength, uh, for our city and, and that, that, that diversity should of course be represented on our city committees. Um, I see this as a real opportunity for potential new Americans, new Vermonters, uh, but clearly legal residents as well as, uh, you know, minors who are moving into, into that adult stage, uh, to, to gain, uh, meaningful, um, participation, uh, opportunities in, in policymaking. Um, and of course they are advisory all of our committees, right? The council is the last to, to sign off and of course there are requirements for, for who can serve in elected office. Um, so that is my spiel. Um, I'm open to questions and, uh, I look forward to, to seeing our new applicants. Are there any questions by council members? Cause there is one in the chat room. Tim. Right. So I'm generally in, in favor of this, just the first resolved paragraph is confusing to me. Um, are you trying to say that a person of, of minor status needs to be, it must be enrolled in an area of high school or clear technical center or secondary education or homeschool setting. Is that what the purpose of that first resolved is? Correct. If they are a minor that they're in, they're in some sort of an educational setting. Correct. Correct. And if it's better to say some kind of educational setting, um, I, I looked at the South Bruinsen high school webpage, um, in order to see what kind of language would be appropriate for that. So that I wouldn't exclude anybody. Um, and I also know that we have private as well as a public high school here in town. And so that language is not, is not exclusive of public or private.  Uh, they are pages in the legislature and Montpelier, for instance. Uh, so I, I thought that there would be no reason to, to make it simply a high school student. No, no, I, I understand that, but I'm trying to get down to what the real, um, constraints of this, what the rule is here. So. It was like somebody's about to, if somebody's about to, is a, a rising freshman at the high school, then they would be eligible to apply, right? But if they were, I mean, because they're going to be enrolled in, so is there, is there a, a minimum age for the minor status or is it have to be somebody that's about to be in the high school or, of that age, or do you just want to establish an age range for the minors, you know, say. You know, was it 14 to 18 or whatever it is, I. Yeah, I didn't want to do that because the calendar is always very tricky and I'm thinking about, you know, our, our new law, you know, for some years now that if you turn 17 by the time of the general election, you can vote in the primary. I think it's important for us to not have that technical, you know, barrier to someone who is clearly, you know, qualified and someone that the council would seriously consider. So, so I, again, is there, is there a minimum age? No, just, just high secondary, secondary level. So, but I mean, an eighth grader will be enrolled in an area high school at some point, but not for another year and a half. So. I just want to make sure that they would not qualify. They would not qualify. Okay. So it has to, so. I just want to make sure that there's some hard boundaries on this, right? So that you can't argue about it too much, right? So. I guess the question is, so it. If somebody is going to be a freshman at the high school or in a technical center or whatever it is. So, so if they're in eighth grade, right? And it's May and they apply. Would they be considered for appointment or would they have to wait until they actually are. In. They would have to wait until they actually are so effectively they would be a rising sophomore. Okay. So they effectively have to be enrolled in a high school or a high school level career, technical center or homeschool setting at that age or secondary education, right? That's the word enrolled. Yes. Okay. Can we just type that paragraph so that it says they must be enrolled in those situations. Well, could you say that they are enrolled at the time of application. Yeah, that would be good. Sure. I can add that. I mean, it certainly I think indicates that in which case they are to be enrolled in our area high schools. So I think it does state that they are enrolled at the time of application, but I think it does state it. Well, I just I would be more comfortable if it said and at time application, they are enrolled in all the things that come after that. Okay. Um, as his hand up and then, um, and then I'll go to, um, two questions in the chat room. So I support the direction we're going in here. I'm just, I'm interested to split this conversation into two, one about the minors and the students and then one about the noncitizens and I've got comments on each. Um, when it comes to minors, I, uh, council member, you and I both know the faculty Senate pretty well at the university of Vermont. And one thing I like that way they have at UVM is the student government association of points. They do all the work. They choose from their body, appoint a student to the standing committees of the faculty Senate every year. It's on them. They don't do it then they don't do it. They don't have that representation. So that's a middle ground here where we can have a student government association point. All my point is I like the idea of creating a different path there on the other piece on the noncitizens. What I'll say is the state Senate and I believe the house are likely to approve noncitizen voting and local elections for the city of Montpelier and then likely when you ski very soon. I'm curious. I'm not opposed to taking on that broader conversation, but I wonder if a middle ground solution to just allow nonvoting members of South Burlington to serve on these committees is to change the application to not ask, are you a legally registered voter of the city of South Burlington and just say, are you a resident of South Burlington? And if you're a resident of South Burlington, then you can serve on one of our committees and apply and you don't need to ask about the legally registered voter status and that might just open it up to that diversity that we're seeking without having to get into the quota area that you said you wanted to avoid anyway. Two thoughts. But again, I support the direction we're going in. I just value possibly splitting this into two different actions. If I could respond to that Helen. Yeah, all I would all I would say is that I think because it is an internship idea where they would effectively be interfacing with, you know, local government just as would any citizen. I find that to be an authentic experience that would provide for them. I think a deep learning experience and it would be, I believe, respectful for them to be shown, you know, the same procedures, procedural steps that that we show to all of our applicants. And I think that it leaves then with the the council, you know, the ultimate responsibility, which is our role. I certainly would not want to advocate that to a student governmental association. I think that because they will be fully voting members, that they should be vetted just like all of our volunteer applicants who are then appointed to our committees. So that would be my response there. I think to this is potentially a question. Karen Ryder. And in the chat room wondering, would there be a time commitment since it could be a three year, I mean, some terms are three years. So would and they go off to college. They're interested in high school and then they go away to college. Are we in a cycle of continually having to replace members? Or I'm wondering if you since you frame this Megan as a like a similar to an internship. And I think internships typically have a timeframe. Would you be or with the council, entertain, maybe putting a like a one year. Commitment on this or one year. One year of service. And then if they are still here and want to continue, they could reapply. That was just a question. That was rising sophomores. They could eventually take on a three year seat, right? Cause there's a two year or three year seat usually per, per year. Sometimes there are open seats when someone steps down and there's one, one year left to the term. I, I, I don't see any reason to submit any different. I don't see any, I don't see any reason to submit any different. I don't see any, I don't see any reason to submit any different. Right.  Term limits or I think they should be a full-fledged member of, of the committee. And that, that is something that Bruce and I discuss quite, you know, quite honestly and candidly that that's, it's, it's showing them respect that they are considered to be that we expect of all of our, all of our members. And if, if the member, you know, if the applicant says, well, I have a year left and then I, I don't know what I'm going to do after graduation. That would enter into the council's deliberation where we could answer, we could ask questions. I saw the admins question here. What about someone who wraps up high school while still a minor? Well, that would be a question that we would ask. I think it might not be me. Right. So the, we is the council, whatever, whoever would be serving at the time that we could ask, we see that you're graduating next year. This is a two year position. What are your plans? And we know from talking to members of our boards and committees that and commission, our planning commission, that there are people who have very busy job schedules, that they travel, that they move out of state, that they have to end early that. And so this would not be an unusual situation where students would say, you know what? I got into my dream school. I can't finish my second year. I'm going to Harvard and we'll say Bravo. Go get up. Okay. Um, but on the other hand, Matt. And then Jessica. I agree. I agree 100% with council memory. I think that they should go through the vetting process just like any other applicant. Um, and not be automatically appointed like the Senate, what council should be referred to by a student body. Um, and I think that we can, as counselors, take that, uh, take that very seriously and determine whether or not they can put in the time and effort to do it. So I think I applaud council memory for bringing us to our attention. And, uh, and I agree with the process that she laid out. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. I agree with that. Okay. Well, almost all committees have one year terms too. I mean, so it isn't unusual for someone to. Either finish a term or. Um, Jessica. Yeah. I just, um, wanted to say that, um, The committee membership, there's information about that in the city charter, which actually sets some certain things as well as you. It seems a little strange, but in the land development regulations under article 17, there's also some specifics about, um, The makeup of the planning commission, the DRB and some of the advisory committees. So it starts on section, um, 17 dash 07. And, um, From what I'm seeing here, I don't think anything's opposed to what you're saying or talking about. But, um, Under the planning commission, it does specifically say all members of the planning commission shall be residents of the city of south Burlington. Um, it doesn't seem to have that same condition for the other committees mentioned. Okay. But there's nothing about age or any or. No, there's not. I guess I just meant like, if you do go forward and make a change, like you might want to just circle back and make sure it's not, um, Uh, Like contrary to what it says in those two documents, just to kind of check your boxes. Okay. Thank you. No, just that brings up an important point. Jessica brings up an important point. We still have on the form. We ask you if you're registered to vote in the city of south Burlington. Um, as I look at it right now. Um, Are you legally registered voter in the city of south Burlington? We can still have that check off box, but obviously if someone applies and they're 16, we, they check no. Um, that's not a determining factor as long as there's nothing in our regulations that prohibit us from appointing someone to a committee that, that hasn't registered to vote. Which I assume there's not, but I would double check that. And it's implicit that they live in our city. Yeah. Sandy, do you have your, I, you're so dark. I can't tell. Did you have your hand up? Yeah. Okay. Um, I just, I think you've cleared up one of my questions. One is I was thinking of Manel because she's a junior right now. So she would be a senior and so I wouldn't want her application. I don't want her application. I don't want her application. I don't want her application not to be considered since she probably doesn't know at this point where she's going to college next year. But the other thought is that if, for example, she were going to UVM or someplace around here or, or we were all still doing things via zoom and she could continue even after she was 18. I'm assuming. As long as she could consider or any other person. She could be a resident of a city of 18. I wouldn't have to end their term. Right. Right. As long as they're a resident, could they be living at an out of state college and just joined by zoom? Well, I think people can be resident. I'm not sure, but I think you can. You can vote like as a resident of South Burlington, even though you're a student out of state. Um, but maybe city clerk could answer that question. Right. Yeah. Um, I think the question relates to the DRB and that is they go into deliberative. Sessions or something it's called quite frequently, which are. I think somewhat comparable to executive sessions. So I was just wondering. If, if, uh, if they're considered comparable to executive sessions. And that's a very much a part of the role of a DRB member. Um, I think it doesn't really fit for, uh, the DRB. I think. Matt. Yeah, I, I think that's accurate. I mean, it's a quasi judicial body. Um, I mean. It is akin to executive session, but it's not, it's maybe assumed, but not directly explicit in the resolution. I would favor amending it to exclude DRB. Um, if we're excluding executive session, but, you know, if we're excluding executive session, I think that would be a great value. So. Okay. Tim. So are we, are you suggesting that we add up to two people per these other committees, non-DRB, non-planning commission? It would depend on who applies. Tim. And just like we don't have quotas for how many women, how many men, how many octogenarians, how many 20 something. Right. I'm really not in favor of quotas. It would be a meritocracy, you know, whoever has the qualifications. And I think that the, just like we're, we're hashing it out here for the DRB, that would be part of our, you know, or the council's discussion.  Uh, or a third. And, you know, member who couldn't attend an executive session. Right. That might be something that would disqualify that person. If we already have two, members on a board or a committee or the planning commission, that is that who are non, you know, not excess, not accessing that, you know, that privy, that, that sensitive information that we sometimes rely on in order to take, you know, really solid decisions. And so they would not be able to participate into, in those votes. So I, that's what I see as kind of the, you know, the gatekeeping in terms of, you know, how many people we would have on these, on these committees. And I can certainly put in there, you know, with, to the exclusion of the DRB, since it seems to be a regular. A regular occurrence. Is that. You do say a maximum of two, right. For each. Right. Okay. Right. For the committees that would be eligible to maximum. Okay. And we're certain that the planning commission is. We're not certain though, if they have any special requirements. Just being residents. This is assuming that all these people are residents. Right. As your resolution. That was my assumption. Now, if it needs to. That would be my assumption. Yeah. I mean, Who would want to sign up in the city? You don't live in. I guess. Oh, Sandy. And then Rosanne. I raised the question of how many. And I don't intend it. Never intended it as a quota. But say you have a committee that has. Six members. And I don't know. I'm not saying that there's a quota, but say you have a committee that has. Um, Six members. And for some reason you have four vacancies. And the only people that apply. Are. For students. And. So the question is. Do you want to hide? And almost all committees that I know. the DRB, they don't go. I've been on the affordable housing committee for years and we've never gone into any executive session. It's normally dealing with personnel. Anyway, never got into executive session that I recall. So, I mean, do you really want to have a situation where two thirds of a committee is students when that isn't at all representative of their proportion of the city's population. It has nothing to do with they're being less qualified. But so you face that situation and you apply, maybe you say, oh no, we don't want that, we'll appoint two. And then you lead two vacancies and you have two students, you don't have anything written about not wanting to have, say, more than a majority of a committee be students or non-citizens. And they say, well, why didn't you appoint us? That's what I'm trying to say. What would you do if that happened? If you're fine with having four students or four non-residents in a committee of six, that's fine. I just wanted you to think about that. That's all. Well, the solution says that the number of non-citizens and minors shall be said as a maximum number of two each. I thought that meant two plus two. If that doesn't mean two plus two, please clarify. No, it could mean two plus two. And what I would say in response to Sandy is that this council has turned down people in the past and previous councils have as well. And that if the candidates are not of the caliber that are or the qualifications that we deem necessary or future councils deem as necessary, I see no reason for us to make excuses or apologize for making a selection. That is part of that process that anybody goes through when they apply to our committee's boards and commissions. And that is part of dealing with reality that these students who are in our public high school here in South Burlington and engaged in internships that they're going through. They need to deal with real live employers and real live expectations and real live rules for how you behave in a certain setting or what tools are to be used and how they're to be used. All these things are good training. And I believe that that's also a way for everyone who's applying for them to know that there are expectations that this is not just first come first served. We have openings, you're a body that can warm a seat. We appoint you. I don't think that's ever been the way that this council has operated. I think that it's always been a very thoughtful process. I'm very proud of the councils I've served on in terms of finding that balance and diversity on our boards and committees. Is it a perfect system? No. And we certainly are mindful of people who have given a lot and when they are incumbents and their seat is up that we do give weight to their experience but we do give weight to the newcomers who provide new experience. It's a very delicate process. As you know, Sandy being a counselor for several years but it's certainly not a free for all. The inferences you're drawing from my input are troubling to me, so. Well, I understand. Okay. I just realized I skipped over item eight on the agenda and I apologize. We'll go back to that as soon as we complete this conversation and possible vote. So my apologies. I think Roseanne wanted to say something. Does anyone else have a comment? I do, Councilor McMillan. Really? Okay. So Roseanne, do you still want to make a comment? Yes, I do. Okay, and then Tom, we'll get to you. Everything's so small. It's hard to. I was going to try to say the way I saw it. I think you want to move the agenda along and I would love to see how Kevin speak to two points raised tonight. One, I think we've already resolved that we cannot add seats to the planning commission or the DRB because they're defining our charter. I'd love clarity on that. And then I also would love to know from a staff perspective if they have any concerns with having possibly four additional seats because there is a workload to both interviewing, to managing, to communicating. And I see that to have implications with the students. Not opposed to any of this, but I might propose that we think about this. I heard that Councilor Emery suggest a couple of small tweaks to the language to address Councilor Barrett's. Maybe we could bring this back at a later meeting in a revised form after we get some more input from Kevin. Ellen, prior to Rosanne's comment. Okay, Megan, let's let Rosanne ask a question. I have a clarification. All right, clarify. Yeah, these are advisory boards. They're the advisory that everyone's looked over. So the DRB is already exempt. I just want that to be clear. These are advisory. They're purely advisory boards as the language. We should get a determination around planning commission. I mean, as I recall, we have to go to the legislature to get that number expanded anyway. Rosanne? Yeah, I'm trying to get this very brief because it's a bit tangential to what the subject is here. But two issues. You talked about whether there were, Sandy had mentioned whether there were more vacancies and not enough applicants and that you might have more students than adults. I want to, I guess, ask the Council to consider the opposite. It's not so much with the students, although it could apply. Years ago, and you already met, well, I know some of you remember this, people would be on our committees for decades. And it was almost like an entitlement. But when I moved here, I was considering applying and my neighbor said, don't bother. If the people are in those seats for life. And the idea was that if the incumbent wanted to stay, there was no chance for anybody else to apply. So if you had any adult or student that wanted to apply for one of our committees and everybody that's on the committee, who stayed on the committee, you might not ever get the opportunity to bring students on board or new blood, for that matter. So it's a bit tangential, but it does impact on how you're looking at who is on your committees and how you appoint and whether there is a sense of entitlement to that seat and no new people need apply. That's my first comment. My second comment is as you're looking at viewing applicants, one of the things that I always thought was important to ask was whether the applicant would, they're not swearing or anything, would pledge their commitment to doing whatever the city council wanted that body to do and would set aside any personal or subjective opinions so that you didn't get people on a committee who didn't agree with the core mission of that committee and were there really to make sure progress wasn't done. We've had a few incidents of that. So I'm just saying as you're looking at applicants and bringing on students and that kind of thing, just things to consider. Okay, thank you. Is there more, Matt, you have your hand. Just to qualify to the scratchers point, which is we don't have term limits. We've never had term limits for committees. Is that correct? We're not contemplating that, right? Not in this, no. Yeah. Okay. Are there any other comments or questions? So we have a couple, it seems to me, there are a couple issues that we probably ought to get a little more information about in terms of, it seems like we need to include the exclude rather the DRB, there was a sense that they should, when they apply, they need to be enrolled in an area educational institution when they apply. So you don't have that eighth grader trying to apply for his or her freshman year. And then there was another item. Wondering about the, well, if it's too, well, I mean, I guess that's a conversation, not a, we don't need more information. That's just a decision about if it's two each on each committee and or up to two each, but there was another issue and I'm missing it. Oh, I know, the planning commission, if there's any references that would make that difficult, if that should be another committee that is excluded. So can we? Yeah, I'm happy to send it. I think that my resolution as is does respond to all those things, but and I'm happy though to wait another two weeks just to have it verified. That's always a good step, but I do have confidence that my, I did change. I just specified, even though advisory is in there and the DRB is not advisory, but I did specify that the development review board is excluded and I added at the time of application for the enrollment, but with regards to the planning commission, all that I know is that you must be a resident. So yeah, I can certainly send this along to Kevin as I have been making those changes and have us consider it in two weeks. Good, Kevin, I think that makes sense, Megan. Kevin, do you have a comment? Yeah, I just, I wonder if we're making this a little more difficult than it needs to be. What if you just simply took out the employer question and the employer contact question and change the next line, are you legally registered voter to the city of South Burlington to simply say, are you a resident of South, resident of South Burlington? That means that anybody can apply students, people with green cards, and then you can, you can choose the people who are best qualified for the committees. You're essentially opening it up to anybody who's a resident of South Burlington, period, regardless of age. We should change the application form. That makes good sense. Just change the form. I like that, Kevin. But there's also the issue of executive sessions and I am not sure. Well, the only ones that do that then are the DRB, if you call their, when they do their decision making, then we'll call it an executive session, but it essentially is. And then in the council, but no one else. I mean, the planning commission doesn't go into an executive session. I don't think any other committee does. I can't imagine when. But anyway, I mean, if, so you don't need to say that, except, yeah. And if I could ask- I don't know why we ask it. We have added your committees when there's been more interest than there are seats. So with Kevin's point, we changed the form. It opens the net. So all of these important people can comply and we can make that clear in our communications. And if we want to add seats to the bicycle and pad to meet the interests of the community, we've done that in the past so we can continue to do so. Okay. Well, what's the, what's the pleasure? Do you want to see a revised resolution versus a revised application? I think one of the positive things about the resolution is that it makes a pretty big statement to the populations that we're hoping to expand participation by, by having a resolution that kind of identifies them. But you can also advertise when it's time for committee applications that this is open to, you know, students and non-citizens as long as you're a resident of, you know, and you're, then I think you have to put it sort of an age thing on it if you do it that way. I think that we need a resolution if we're going to be opening it up in this way precisely because of the executive session, the sensitive issue of that. I think that's really key. And it is depriving that individual of a certain power, you know, and access to information, which is why I submitted having two so that it would not just be the token member. And I know that these words are charged, but they're charged because that's how people feel when they are one and they aren't privy to that sensitive information that only privileged members get in executive sessions. So I am trying to see things from the point of view of those members who would be excluded. And that is, I think, important for us to lay out in language that is clear, that is transparent, that people can point to that they need clarification. I was just trying to make it simpler and try to have this set tonight so that people can interview at the next meeting. That's all. I think it's ready to go to be honest because we had our chair of our planning commission say, all you had to do was be a resident. And it's clearly stipulating these are advisory committees which excludes the DRB. And it's clearly says to be enrolled, I added at the time, but I think that's just redundant. So I do think that we are ready to go for next meeting, to be quite honest. If that is what everybody... What is the sense of the council? Are you ready to go? Tonight? Yes. No, not tonight, no. Two weeks. Okay. Because certainly... I do agree with that we should... Still interview Manel and the... Yeah, Johnson and I don't remember. Okay. Yeah, we just... We're going to review them pending approval of a resolution that... Are there any other items that people want included in a new... So Marcy Murray said a very... She wrote to me here that not all South Brunnington students are South Brunnington residents. That's very true. So we could certainly add resident to that. And I prefer a limit of two. Not two plus two, but just two. This is like what the school board has where they have the student... We don't vote him. I know, I know. But I'm saying that it's an opportunity for a student to participate in the process. This gives them a vote except for an executive session or a deliberative session, right? So I would just like the resolution. I prefer just to say two minutes. I don't care what the combination is either residents that aren't citizens and or are minors. It doesn't matter. And make sure we specify the exclusivity of the DRB and the planning commission or any other board that's not seriously just advisory and doesn't violate the charter. And then just tighten up that paragraph about the educational status of the person. That's all right. Okay. There was an, I'm sorry, Matt. Oh, I'm sorry. I just want to clarify. We're not increasing the size of the committees. We're not adding to we are, we are working with the existing numbers as I've created now. Correct. Yes. Well, why don't we get a new draft for consideration and potential adoption in two weeks and give people time to think about it. Do people agree with Tim regarding a limit to two total of those members of the committees who could not participate in executive sessions? Or is Tim alone in that? No, I agree. You know, I don't know how I feel about that. I think there could be problems, but if there were four in a committee with and they, I don't know, I'd like to think about that, that's a pretty minor revision. I mean, it's not minor in your mind, Megan. And I understand that interest in having two students. So they have support. It might be incumbent upon some training with chairs and committees that encourage them or show them how to, to really involve student, these student members into their committee. Yeah. And just like we, we entertain recommendations from our current committee chairs and members for appointing, you know, a candidate or candidates who have applied. I would imagine that we would, or the future council would take into consideration, you know, a concern that we have a maximum number of people who can attend our executive sessions right now. We cannot, we need to have a member who could attend executive sessions. I see that as something that will, it will auto regulate. I really am not in favor. You don't know what could happen. And there might be someone outstanding. And the committee will say, well, we don't mind if there's a third member. It's not a problem for us. And for us to limit it to two, I think is, is prescriptive in a way that is detrimental to potentially a very, you know, positive level of diversity on a board. So at this point, I will leave it as is saying to each, and then we can continue that discussion in two weeks. That sounds like the limit of two because of the comment that Sandy Dooley made, but I also think we should move on and bring this back at the next meeting because we got a lot of other things. So we shall do that. Thank you for all your work, Megan. And I think we'll have something in two weeks that we can support. So I appreciate it. And now my bed, I skipped over number eight, the council follow up from joint meeting with planning commission. And the questions posed by the commission. I had a conversation with the chair of the planning commission, Jessica. And during that conversation, we agreed that the council, a while ago had said, get the, the environmental, you call it, I'm blanking on the term, chapters 10 and 12, done and approved, and then moved to the PUD. So I was, and talking with, and getting a lot of feedback from the public, I was, and I'm going to suggest, and I think Jessica will have a comment as well, that we put off this discussion until we have completed the discussion and the planning commission has completed their work on chapters 10 and 12. Before we start mixing it up again with, well, what about the PUDs and how do they fit? I think the council agreed that the environmental protection were kind of the basis for then, how do you create PUDs and development regs that conform to that and allow for growth? So that's rather than have a long conversation about that part of the work plan for IZ, I would suggest that we move on, but I would like Jessica to make any comments she has, and then we can open it to discussion, but. Yeah, so we didn't provide a lot for tonight's conversation because we wanted you to have just time to reflect on, you know, things that had come up in the joint meeting. In the joint meeting, I think we covered the chapters 10 and 12, the environmental protection standards in pretty good detail and looked at mapping. So if you have comments on any of that part, I think it would be really helpful to have, you know, kind of during this public comment period, which ends on the 20th of this month. And for tonight's packet, we did give you some new information and some kind of questions to give a little bit more background about what we had talked about at the second part of our joint meeting, that part about how the PUDs relate. We kind of got squished in our time, and there wasn't a lot of time to kind of go through all of that. So what's in your packet tonight? I guess I see as additional information for you to have more context and to frame some questions that we will have for you kind of moving forward. But, you know, if you want to hold off till we're done with the environmental protection standards to kind of circle back on those questions, I think that's completely appropriate and in line with your direction to focus on chapters 10 and 12 first. So we just wanted to make sure you kind of had the big picture, you know, before we get to the point of adopting the chapters 10 and 12. So that was it. And I'm here to answer questions if you have any follow-up questions since our joint meeting. Does that sound acceptable to everyone? Not to dig into that tonight, Matt? That's fine. My couple of clarifications. One is I do recall the language that we used. Very particular language that we use when we were referring to, you know, the guidance to the planning commission is putting a pin in the environmental protection standards. And to me, putting a pin in it isn't meaning, it means get started on the public hearing process so we can fully vet it, not to get the approval done and then work to get the PUDs. I still have an open mind about that, about whether or not we should prove them as a package or we can do them in order. And then the second, so I just want to clarify that. And then the second part of the question was for Jessica, which is what is most, I see the questions that you've asked us, the commentary regarding PUDs, what's most helpful to you now as you think about ways to formulate these changes? You know, I think some of the specifics about the PUDs, we don't necessarily need right now because we are really still focused on chapter 10 and 12 stuff, so that's fine. I think the one thing that I might want to point out is the piece where we talk about strict conservation. One thing that I don't know that I pointed out super well in our joint meeting is that the work of the open space and term zoning committee did excellent work and it was parcel-based. Our approach at the planning commission has not been parcel-based. It's been resource and science-based. And we had maybe last year even kind of given the direction that if you at the council level would like to follow up in some way on that report and maybe in your conservation planning take into consideration that parcel-based information, I think that would be something that we've kind of put on your plate. I think it's a great report. There's so much great information in there but our approach at the commission level has been resource-based. So I just wanted to make sure that that was clear and we weren't kind of missing something before we get to the end of IZ. Thank you. May I comment on that, Sherri Lee? You certainly may. Great point, Jessica. And thank you for that. I see that report from the open space committee is tremendously valuable for councils. This current one and future ones, as we consider the use of our open space fund acquisition dollars and those other plannings. And I love that the planning commission is doing exactly what you just described, resource and scientific base because my understanding of the legalities of land use regulations, that makes a lot of sense. So thank you for that comment and I fully support that trajectory. All right. So is there any further comment? And this, okay. So thank you, Jessica. We certainly will be back in touch. So moving on to item 10, this is the interview time. And we're just about on schedule. So that's good. And the first person will be interviewing. I'm hardly read this. Jennifer, let me get them up. Is Jennifer, I'm, I must need new glasses. I'll be Saras. Is that how you pronounce it? Is Jennifer here? Could it be Jen Savas? Yeah, I guess it is Jen Savas. Yes. Alrighty. Hi. Welcome. I'm sorry. I couldn't read your name. Now I can bring up your, you are interested in the library. Okay.  So what is, um, Ellis, you know, do you, are you familiar with the goals of the library committee and how do they sort of connect with your goals? Um, I'm interested in, uh, the library committee because I want to be more involved with the community and a, um, um, In a, in a sport, if you will, that I love, I love reading. I love libraries. Um, but don't look at my library car because I'm pretty sure that I owe books. Um, but I didn't return. But I do, I'm just interested in looking over the library. I'm interested in the new, the new building. Uh, I have a lot of experience in event planning. And I understand that there might be a need for events, uh, coming up with the new library. Mm hmm. I, um, am a little free library steward, which means that I live in Butler farms. I put a new library, a little, um, little free library across the street that I keep stocked with, uh, toddler books and adult books and, um, teenager team books. So I just want to be more active. Okay. Have you been to any of the, um, library meetings and understand the time commitment? Yeah. Honestly. But you think you have the time if you're interested in working on some event planning, you must have some time. I, um, I work from home. Uh, my job is, um, a conference coordinator for a pediatric medical learning health network. Um, so I'm, and I. Spent 10 years at run Vermont planning the Vermont city marathon. Um, I've lived in South Burlington for 30 years. Um, my son is a sophomore in high school and. I was always very involved in his activities. But he doesn't need me anymore. So I'm looking to find, uh, more for me. Great. Okay. Other questions from the council. Tim. Hey, Jen, I live in the cider mill and I, I bike commute through your, your street and I've seen your library several times.  Oh, that's, that's a micro library. A nice little box with a little door and I haven't had a chance to look inside, but I just want to thank you for putting that up. Oh, thank you. It's, um, so my home office looks out over the library and my family calls me a stalker, but I can like.  I just put a bench out there. So now I, um, last weekend and I've seen families sit there and read. So I'm loving it. Any other questions? So let me ask you if, um, and I can't think of an example, but, um, if the, if the library committee were asked to pursue something that, um, you know, the council thought was a great idea. Um, but you personally disagreed with it. How, how would you respond to that? Oh, delicately. Um, I, I would actually find out why they thought it was a good idea because there must be a reason. Um, I am. Well, everyone else thought it was a good idea and it just was, I don't know, maybe it was some kinds of books that you feel were inappropriate, um, or a program. But you know, maybe I didn't think it would work. Yeah. Or just the morally wrong or I don't know something. Um, I would give my opinion. I, you know, for what it's worth. I, I would, I would tell people what I thought. And then, um, uh, hear both. I would hear all the sides. And I would say, um, I would say, I would agree with it. And. I'm not going to not do something because I don't agree with it. Give it a college try and. Okay. Then say I told you so. No, just kidding. I would. All right. Okay. Other questions from council members. to know, and I'm sorry I was reading through comments so I might have missed something if you said it. Could you tell us more about your volunteer experience, Jen? Sure, well I volunteered through my son's growing up. I was on the South Burlington Little League board in charge of uniforms for his whole Little League career. I write the newsletter for the South Burlington food shelf. I'm a mentor for the South Burlington program. I have a little, oh my gosh, I don't even know. I think she's still in third grade at Orchard. And gosh. Well that's a lot. You've got good experience. So what skills would you bring besides loving, you know, reading as a sport? What kinds of skills would you bring forward? I have the same sport, Jen. I know, I do calisthenics every day. So tell me, what kind of skills would you bring forward or do you think the library board would need from quite a wealth of experience that you have? I love writing. I'm happy to, I volunteered to, I got a blank on his name. Also in the South Burlington food shelf, it wasn't Peter Carmel, actually it was Peter and somebody else. Yeah, thank you. Yes. Asking if I could do their communications for them. I enjoy, enjoy writing, designing, event planning. And I would probably volunteer in the library when, when the time comes that there's a availability. Thank you. That's a wonderful response. Thank you. Yeah, that sounds great. Oh, and I love the seed idea and I'm stealing it for my library. My little library. Okay. Ideas are to be shared. That's okay. That's great. Far Oaks. Are there any other finds to be charged at your library? That's what I want to know. I do. And actually, you know what, I do see that finds were eliminated. I also shared, I was a big, I unfortunately had to bring a lot of canned goods and stuff as my library finds piled up. Was there a question? No, if there isn't, I was just gonna thank you for your interest. It sounds like you've already done a lot for South Burlington for your, through your children in the food shelf and all sorts of things. So our process is we have one more meeting of interviews and then we'll find a good chunk of time to meet and go through all the applicants and make decisions. So we, I would hope that we, our decisions could be announced by the beginning of June. So that's kind of the timeframe. Thank you. All right. Okay. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your interest and thank you for, for applying. Okay. Thank you. So the next run is Margaret Cross, who is an incumbent on the library board. Hi there. So you've been on the board for how long? Two terms. So six years. Six years. Okay. Oh, that's your first sentence. Sorry.  So you're really aware of what the library board does and how to do it. Are there any things we should know about your role as chair or the library board that would be helpful for the council to know? So I'm currently serving on the advocacy committee and I serve as the secretary of the foundation. So I've been involved in the campaign, mostly behind the scenes doing some grant writing and communications, a little bit of advising. I'm in fundraising for communications for a living. I work for the University of Michigan Health System remotely. Of course, so yeah, no, I'm, you know, I'm interested in staying involved. I really have loved it. If I can offer any continuity or, you know, just experience, I'm happy to bring that to continue to bring that. I'm super impressed with the library director and the staff. I just love seeing what they're doing and being supportive in any way that I can. So I'm just pleased and happy to continue if you feel that that, you know, that that would be helpful. So yeah. Okay. Any other questions from anyone else? Seems like we need to keep you. Oh, thank you. Right. Well, good. Well, thank you very much for re-upping and I think, you know, the continuity is probably an important thing. Okay. It's been, it's been lovely to see the new people come on the board too is wonderful. So whatever the decision is, is great. But I, it's, it's just very rewarding to be a part of it. Okay. Good. Well, thank you. Thank you. Next up is Leslie Klamo. I'm trying to find her thing. Oh, there it is. Leslie Black Klamo. She, there you are. Hi Leslie. And she's an incumbent on the affordable housing committee. And you've been on that for a couple of two terms for one term. This may be the third term. Okay.  What, well, I don't know.  If, would you have a problem with, if the council for whatever reason changed its mind about the importance of affordable housing? I'm not suggesting we are going to, but if, I don't know, things worked out so we didn't look as if we were supporting it enough. How, how would that play out for you? But would, how would you deal with that on that committee? Well, we would definitely discuss what, you know, what was going on behind and we've had discussions like this as the years have gone by about the impacts of local decision making on housing affordability and sometimes unintended consequences for the affordability of the housing stock in South Burlington. And so by discussing with the committee and then hearing the, you know, the competing priorities that the city council and the planning commission are juggling, that is usually the best way for immediately to get some context for why things may be going a certain direction. And then I just try to, my, my role is more of a fact provider for this group in many ways. And I have a lot of familiarity with the demographics in Vermont and the housing stock and what are some of the levers that can affect housing affordability. So I try to just interject that where it's helpful. Okay. You clearly know the time commitment. Are there any other questions that council might have? Megan. Yeah. I just wanted to, to know a little bit more about, you know, how the state, do you work, I'm sorry, for the county or for the state, Leslie, I guess I have to work for a state, a state organization. It's not a state agency, per se. It's a, you know, it's a statewide nonprofit agency that was chartered by the state of Vermont, but we do things like issue bonds. We're kind of the bank for affordable housing in Vermont. So any building that goes up in South Burlington that has income limits that are targeted to low income individuals, that would always have some VHFA money in it to help make those rents affordable. Does it go directly to rents or does it go to cars and gas and insurance and those kinds of expenses? Does it go to utilities? Does it go to, you know, what exactly besides rents or maybe it's just rents? It's interesting. It's a way of providing housing that's affordable ultimately to the tenant by financing development up front. So federal housing tax credits are provided up front and that means that the developer can work with a syndicator and raise about 60% of the costs of developing that's like constructing or rehabbing the apartment building. And then that developer doesn't need to take out as big of a loan as they would otherwise need. And that means that the developer owner has more flexibility and in fact will be required by this federal funding source. To limit the amount of rent that it charges for those apartments and it doesn't need to to make to make the numbers work because it has had this big influx of cash at the development stage. It didn't need to, the developer need to borrow the money so it doesn't need to turn to the tenants to have them pay it through rent. So those other expenses that you mentioned are all part of a tenant or manager owners budget and money is kind of like water. It flows where it's needed and it's the money in the beginning helps over a long period of time keep those rents affordable and provide enough money for the utilities for the building. Okay but cars, gas, insurance, tires, I'm assuming that's not included. Well one of the requirements of some federal funding sources and some state funding sources are that the tenant is not can't pay rent that's more than 30% of their income. And part of the thinking with that is that that leaves you know the remaining 70% of their income for those kinds of expenses. It's kind of keeps their housing expenses sustainable. They'll have enough money hopefully to pay their rent and all those other expenses that they have like cars and medical bills and food and childcare. Okay any other comments Matt? Oh we just wanted to thank Leslie for work BHFA is an incredible organization under leadership of Mora Collins and done incredible work in the energy space making sure that these affordable homes are not those homes are not only affordable but they're also energy efficient. So thank you for what you do Leslie. Good all right. Do you have any questions for us Leslie?  My question how do you stay awake this long? Coffee. Yeah I'd be up all night. I don't do coffee but anyway okay thank you very much for your service. Thank you for applying again and you certainly bring some important knowledge and facts to that for Wildland Committee. So I thank you for that. Thank you all for your service. Okay Emily Krasnow. Is she here? Is Emily here? No. Hello. Can you hear me? Yes I can hear you. Okay great. Hi. So you're interested in the Affordable Housing Committee as well. I am. So tell us what it looks like you've had a fair amount of experience at the state level. You worked for Lieutenant Governor Zuckerman. Yep from 2013 to 2020. Yeah that's a that's a good long time. So what kind of you know skill sets would you bring to this or talents that would you see perhaps as needed on the Affordable Housing Committee in South Burlington? Sure well I've lived in South Burlington for 16 years now. I was a renter before as a homeowner. I believe that I would bring perspective as a young professional who you know I believe housing is a human right and is at the intersection of a lot of issues that are important having a state safe and stable home advances racial justice climate justice and affordability justice. So I think I bring that experience and knowledge on a state level. I'm a fast learner and I'm interested in learning more about South Burlington housing needs and goals and currently I'm studying leadership and management at the University of Notre Dame's Mendoza College of Business. So learning more about management and promoting civic engagement. I produced an online television show live from the state house. We did a lot of topics around affordability affordable housing and issues like that and so I think civic engagement. I speak at high schools colleges around the state promoting the importance of engagement and being involved in your community. So I think I could bring those skills to the table to advance the work that is going on in South Burlington. Okay. Have you sat in on any of the South Burlington affordable housing meetings? So I had intended to go to the last one. Unfortunately my mother had surgery and I had a family obligations and I could not attend but I had planned to. I do watch the city council meetings on CCTV that you all have. So I am familiar with a lot of the people and people in the community and I do know some a lot of the people on the committee so and have talked to them about the commitment and needs of the committee. Good. Other questions or comments? Tim is that a hand up or you're just yeah. Yeah I know. So Emily do you have any specific ideas that you would want to flow with the committee if you were to join it? Sure. Again my experience is more on a statewide level. I have worked under the mentorship of city councilor Brian Pine and for some time and the affordable housing coalition as well as CVOEO and some other housing organizations statewide. So I would as far as specific suggestions I would love to just learn more and then promote ideas that I've had statewide. As we know there's a housing stock shortage and the units that people want to live in. So there's cooperative housing. There are a lot of different ideas that we've seen on a state level that I'm interested but really as a new committee member I would be more interested in hearing process from others before I would just jump in with my own suggestions. Thanks. Okay. Other questions? Matt did you have your hand up? Yeah. Yes. Hi Emily. You have such a broad public policy background given your work in the state house as we discussed. Is there any other I notice you just put affordable housing committee as you're in the application. Is there any other committees that you're interested in or are you just focused on the affordable housing at this point? To be perfectly honest I do have interest in other committees. If the council believes that I would be a better fit for another committee and that I'm open to the discussion. Affordable housing seemed like a natural fit for me because that's a lot of the work I've been doing in Burlington over the last decade and organizing and one of the most important policies statewide that I've been involved in. But I am interested in giving back to South Burlington in that capacity. So if the council believes that I would be a better fit for another committee I'm open to that discussion as well and interested. All right. Tom. Emily great to see you applying. I think you have a wealth of Vermont state talent to bring so I'm so glad to see you applying. Similar to Councillor Coda's point. I'm not taking anything away from Councillor Barrett but I also see you would be a great GMT alternate.   But if you didn't feel like taking or if you want to light your load a little bit Emily Crasna with mega pole lights on that board and I think you would represent South Burlington really well there. You know how GMT needs to navigate the legislature to plant a seed in your mind and if you want a little less to do Tim I would definitely support her becoming the GMT alternate. It's a real trip. Thank you. Yes that's right. My good pal is on that committee as well. All right. Megan did you have a question? Thank you. I think we have the wrong application in our box is that correct? I think somebody else is that when I clicked on Emily's somebody else's. Mine says Emily. Mine doesn't have her name but it has her. It has 16 years old. I'm a 16 year old resident. Oh 16 years. We are here for 16 years. Okay. Yeah I am 36. So all right. I just want to clarify. Okay. Thank you. I have lived in South Burlington for 16 years now. Born and raised in Charlotte. So not too far. Okay. And I know you from okay. Thank you. It's just the previous discussion. All right. Let me take Nice to be 16 again. Maybe. Oh I don't know. I don't know. Any other questions for Emily? Do you have any questions for us? Nope. Thank you for your time. Like I said I do watch the meetings and as well as the Burlington meetings and stay pretty engaged. So I appreciate all your time and efforts especially. I know that you all wear many hats and give a lot of time to the community. So I appreciate all those efforts and thank you for considering me. Well thank you very much for applying and all that you've done and we may have a place for you somewhere else as well. That's fine too. I'm happy to hear your suggestions and thoughts and I'm open to all of them. Great. Thank you. Have a good night. You too. Okay. Next up is Havala Ganyay. Am I pronouncing that right? Yes. Hi. Good evening. This is Havala Ganyay. Havala. Okay. And you're on bike and ped now. Yes. You're completing your first term.  Do you think they have the right goals? I do. Goals and vision. Okay. So what are those? We talk a lot about shifting the culture and really embracing non-car forms of transportation. It's definitely about connection, making it easier for people to get from their neighborhood to place of work to businesses and making South Burlington really a pleasant place to live. And more equitable. It's a lot cheaper to own a bike than it is to own a car. They tend not to break down. They break down but not really as bad. And that's a lot of what we're working on. So I guess my first term was a huge learning curve for me. Part of it the pandemic didn't really help. It's a two-year term. But I've been impressed at how organized it is. They've got their goals out for years in advance. I think if we got the one megabucks we could just kind of roll out all kinds of great projects. But they're really careful about eliciting community input. Prioritizing, really looking at how many people in neighborhoods can we connect with one little spot here and there. So I'm happy about that. Ashley Parker is a great project manager to work with us. She was able to apply and get a grant so we can fill in a section on Dorset Street. So it's been a great committee. I've learned a lot. Okay. Any other questions? Certainly know the time commitment and you have the time. It sounds like you have the you've drunk the Kool-Aid. So are you a biker personally? I do. I work, I live in Butler Farm neighborhood and I work at the University of Vermont Medical Center. I have a pedal assist bike and boy I bought it in September of 2019. I started biking in full time April of 2020 and I went through full time just about every day through the end of November. I had a couple days I was able to do it in December and I managed to get a ride in January. There's about two or three months that I can't ride because it's just a little too icy for fall. I'm careful. Go down on the curvy parts where I can't see or on the bend. So you certainly understand and appreciate the need for safer roads to get to the University? Yeah, we do. We certainly have a plan and it's a high priority. I tend to go on Spear Street for a part that doesn't have half connected and that's a high priority for us. I think it's, as I recall, it's within the five-year plan for us. But yeah, we'd love funding for paint and signs would be great. We can do a lot with that. Okay. Other questions or comments? Again, thank you for your service in all aspects. That's very cool that you ride your bike so much. I walk and do those things through the library and stuff but I don't bike around here anyway. Thank you and we'll be back in touch before June 1st. Okay, great. Thank you so much. Thank you for all of your service as well. You're welcome. Okay, next is Maddie Christine Luxper and Maddie is interested in the bike and head committee as well. Hi, Maddie. How are you doing? I'm doing pretty well. I really liked hearing your stories. I don't bike as much as you but I'm getting my bike converted to an e-bike in the next couple of months and I'm really looking forward to it. Great. So you have lived here? So I lived in my current address for a year. That's what I've been asked. I've lived in South Burlington for three years but just moved a couple miles away closer to the downtown area which I really like makes it a lot easier to bike around. Sure. Okay. And what do you think you would add to the bike and head committee? I read a lot about sustainable transportation. It's one of my passions is learning about that sort of thing and I hope to bring that sort of, for lack of a better term, like my desire to go find interesting pieces of information and share them with people and bring that sort of energy to the committee. Alrighty. Questions that other people might have?  Have you been to any of the committee meetings? I didn't actually know they were open to the public. I looked at the page obviously but I missed the part where it said they're open to the public. So that guess will teach me. Any, Megan? Hi, Maddie. I was curious if you could tell us your thoughts about that, what is it, the Crossover Exit 14 plan? You attended the CCRPC meeting and I would just, I would love to have your perspective on how that would work. I don't fully understand it to be completely honest. It looks confusing. I don't drive. I mean, I have an electric car and I try and avoid 89 as much as possible because I don't like to go above 50 miles an hour. I guess I don't really get what the interchange would look like. It's been hard to visualize that intersection. I mean, obviously, it's a nightmare I biked to UVM last week and the whole time I was like, had on a swivel and thankfully some very kind drivers like let me cross but it's very scary. Definitely room for improvement. The specific traffic clothing is not really my area of expertise but I love to learn. So definitely something I would like to be able to speak about with more authority, I guess. Have you looked at the exit 13 to see the bike lane there and what would become a state highway that seems to be much less complicated and much more straightforward? I don't know. I can't remember right now off the top of my mind. Okay, that's fine. That's fine. But looking for a way to get to UVM from South Burlington would be of interest to you, to me too. Particularly, I think biking along Williston Road is just, that's mostly, I mostly do my biking along Williston Road and along Patching Road. I work at Community Health Centers of Burlington and have been working remotely for a year and change now but prior to that bike to work three days a week and that's a zone that is rife with speeding and I would love to see some sort of traffic control and bike safety improvements there. I think, well honestly, I know that obviously this is an application and an interview. I feel like if I were accepted to the bike committee, one of my stumbling blocks would be, and this has been the case in numerous of my jobs, I like to dream really big and I think it would have to be, I'd have to keep those impulses in check a little bit. We probably don't have the funds to do protected bike lanes down all of Williston Road as much as I would like that. That's what the committee structure is for, right? It's to dream big and then, okay, now we're going to chip away at the edges. Reality check. Yeah, exactly. Very good. Thank you. Other questions for Maddie? All right. Well, thank you very much for your interest and as I mentioned earlier, we'll finish our interviews and then get back a meet and then get back with all the candidates on our selections. Okay. I actually have one question for the City Council, if I could. I know that this is an advisory committee and that any recommendations we make are just that advisory. I'm sure a lot of the discussion last week at the City Council meeting and I know that this is one of the agenda items moving up or coming up is about the three to two vote about the 12, exit 12 expansion. And I just want to, I guess like I'm aware of the time commitment on the committee and I just want to make sure that it's going to be like a worthwhile use of time if the recommendation that the committee can be sort of seemingly kind of easily over, you know, pushed to the side. Well, I guess I would answer. I don't know if that's a question, but one of the reasons we're revisiting that vote is because probably my fault. We didn't really take the time to listen to all the committees who were presenting. And in retrospect, I agree with you. I think that's a poor reflection on the Council to, especially when we're in the midst of interviewing people for committees and then have a meeting where it appeared as if we didn't listen to any of the committees. So we'll hear from them tonight, I hope, and hopefully get that more, a better structure in our conversations because it is insulting and it's a good question. Why would I join a committee if I do all this work and I don't even get to present at a Council meeting what we were asked to consider? Chair Ridley? Yes. So, Maddie, thank you for that. I think you directed it at the whole Council, so I just offer the following. In the Council role, we're weighing lots of different perspectives and getting interest for the entire city and we received lots of perspectives and I want to want you to know that I took to heart all of the feedback from the committees. I fully advocate for bike and head enhancements in this community. I see 12B as one of those opportunities to get a whole bunch of federal money to make it safer to go over Hinesburg Road, but I simultaneously want to see the improvements that exit 13 and exit 14. So if anybody has perceived that the previous discussions were dismissive of those committee reports, then I think we do need to do what Chair Ridley just suggested is make sure to carve out more time to hear from our committees because you serve an important role and we need to hear your voices and that's why we have these bodies. So I feel like I definitely listen to them and I always do and I love attending the committees whenever I can, especially when they're in person and catered, but just know that you listen to the committees and you serve an important role and I'm hoping that you'll be on the committee soon enough to experience that. Thank you very much for your thoughtful response. I really appreciate that. Okay. Well, thank you very much, Maddie. Next up is Stephanie Wyman. She is an incumbent on the DRB. Where's Stephanie? There you are. Hi there. Welcome. So you're interested in continuing. Remind me how long you, you haven't been there very long, right? Like just a year maybe? Oh, like two months. Oh, that's right.  Yeah, I filled in for someone who had stepped down. Okay.  No, no. Okay. So have you found, I mean, what kind of skills do you find that you bring to the table that have, what you think have been helpful? Yeah. So I'm a professional engineer in the state of Vermont. And so I bring a lot of background, knowing how to read site plans, understanding the land development regulations and how those apply to development projects in the city. And then being able to kind of offer my advice on designs, ask more pointed questions of the designers as to maybe why they did something or why they would lean one way or the other for their designs. So. Okay. That's good. I think Matt would agree. Pointed questions are good. That's fine. Other questions? Tim? Quick one. So Stephanie, how many meetings have you been on, been to the DRB so far? I think I've attended four or, yeah, I think four now. Okay. All right. Have you had to recuse for many of those four? Any application? Yes, you have? Yeah. Okay. And I think that's one of the challenges, right, when you're looking for someone to join the board, you want them to be able to participate in all of the projects that come forth. And unfortunately, that's not going to be the case for me. I work for VHB. And so we are actively involved with multiple developers. Sometimes my company is involved with specific projects in South Burlington. So naturally I need to recuse from any of those conflicts. What's your scorecard now? Is it like one out of 10 or one out of five or just just curious? Yeah. So it depends on the meeting. I've had some meetings where I've been able to participate in the entire meeting. I've also had a meeting where I've had to sit out for an entire meeting. So I think I'm 60, 40. It's hard to say. 60 that you've participated in and 40 that you can or the reverse? Again, it depends on I think. It depends on the night. I mean, tomorro