So Heraclitus is trying to answer the question, what's the unity and diversity as a way of answering the question, what does it mean to exist? OK, seems simple enough. Now, I suspect that some of you, at least maybe a little bit, laughed at Heraclitus' contention that you never step into the same river twice. And his point being that the river is constantly changing. Therefore, there isn't just one river, right? There's a succession of rivers, or succession of objects we call them all rivers. There's all this change. There is no unity. Now, everybody listening to this video has been to a river at least once. I mean, this is the Guadalupe River, right? I suspect maybe around half of you all have gone tubing at least once down the Guadalupe. You talk about the Mississippi River, the Missouri River, the San Antonio River. You talk about a variety of rivers, the Amazon, the Nile. These are all rivers. And you don't think that there's been just a succession, right? We're not calling it Guadalupe version 7,928, right? It's the Guadalupe River. All right, great. Then you can answer the question, what is the unity of a river? If you know that this river has been here for a while now, what is the unity of a river? Answer the question, what's the unity of this river? So what do you think? What's the unity of a river and the unity of this river? What is it about the river that stays the same amongst all the changes, right? The changes are the diversities. It's the diversity, right? So let's start with an obvious one. It's not the water. Well, at least this, if a river just is the water, there goes one Guadalupe. There goes another Guadalupe. There goes a third Guadalupe, right? It's a lot of quickly flowing water today. A lot of Guadalupe's passing by me, if all that a river is, is the water. So it's not the water itself. Well, what about the river bed? And so the bottom of the river, and it's got rocks, dirt, plants, right? The river bed is what never changes. Well, not exactly. I mean, the river is an erosive force. It pulls and pushes dirt, rocks, plants down the river. It carves out a trench in the land. The Guadalupe, you know, the Grand Canyon looks the way it does because of a river, a river flowing through it. So it's not the river bed itself because that's moving down, just maybe not as fast as the water, but it's also moving down just like the water. The rocks that are lining the edge here weren't always there. I think some of these are artificially placed. Now you see that tree over there. I don't know if you can see, there's a big old stump right there. That once was a tree. The dirt that's lining the bank, that's getting washed away. It's not the river bed. The river bed moves, changes, maybe not as fast, but just like the water, it changes. Okay, maybe it's the location, the path that the river takes. That changes over time. So the Mississippi River has changed a lot over the years. The Nile has changed a lot, a lot. One of the reasons why the Egyptians developed a geometry was to measure and redistribute land after the swelling and the recession of the Nile. So it's not the location or the width of the river. That changes depending upon the flow. Today we have a pretty high flow day, right? So the flow is not what remains the same. Today we have a pretty high flow day for the Guadalupe. But if we don't have a whole lot of rain, they don't open up the gates very much and we don't have as much flow. It's not whether there is water in the river. There are parts of the Rio Grande that are dried up and flow again after some time. I just heard somebody here just told me that further down, one of the lakes further down this river has dried up. If we want to say what makes the river or a lake, the fact that there is water in it, well then after it dries up, that lake is gone and after new water goes in, it's a brand new lake. I doubt that's it. It's not its location. It's not even a source. I mean, this source is pretty stable right now. It's a dam, right? The source of the Guadalupe right now is a dam, but it wasn't always this dam, right? Lake is an artificial lake. It was constructed by the Corps of Engineers. So right now the lake, the dam is the source of the Guadalupe, but it wasn't always the source of the Guadalupe. When you think about something like, I think it's the Colorado River. It sources all the many different springs that pop up after rain and snow. Snow melts in the mountains, that feeds the Colorado River. It's got lots of different sources. Not to mention the fact that big rivers like the Mississippi have very different tributaries. I'm gonna have tributaries right where, but rivers that flow into it. So even just trying to answer that just backs up the question. It's not the water itself. There's water in the, because for starters, they're not just water in there. That's not pure water. That's got quite a few different things flowing through this river right now that probably wouldn't wanna drink this water. It's not the form, right? I mean, I don't know, maybe you could say it's the form. What the unity of this river is the definition of the river. Well, first of all, I'm gonna want you to provide me with a definition that stands the test of time. That's one thing. Secondly, if the river is just its form, do you see the river? Because you don't see form. You never, ever, ever see form. Form is comprehended. If the river just is its form, you never step into the river because you never step into form. So it's not the water. It's not the flow. It's not even the direction of the flow. Because again, the geography changes. That's one thing to think about. But sometimes rivers reverse courses. And if we say a river just is this flow, once it reverses course, you got a brand new river and it goes back, you got another river. Usually it takes a geological event, but yeah, rivers can reverse their flow. So the unity of a river, it's not the water, it's not the direction, it's not the location, it's not the bed. It's not even the name, right? This wasn't always called the Guadalupe River, if this always did exist, right? So what is the unity of a river? If you could come up with an answer, I'd be curious to see it. So Heraclitus is trying to answer the question, what does it mean to exist? By answering a different question, what's the unity in diversity? It's a little bit more complicated than you might have thought. We already looked at trying to answer the question, what's the unity of a river? Didn't really come up with many good answers. Any answers that we did come up with imply that the river comes and goes, along with the water. Okay, well, so here's a further question. What's the unity of you? You think you've been around for at least 10 years. Some of you 18, some of you twice that, some of us, more than twice 18 years. All right, what is it that's remained the same that entire the time? What is it that hasn't changed, that's remained, that's been around for over 18 years? Well, you might have originally tried to answer this question by saying your body. Well, your body is a lot like that river we looked at. There's a flow of matter that goes through. Every last part of your body is composed of organs. Every last organ is composed of cells.  If we're gonna count the age of you by your oldest organ, which would be at best your oldest cells, well then you're about seven to 10 years old. That's your bones, your bones last that long. Most other organs are three, five years, something like this. I'm not the best biologist in the world, but it's around this number.  So I've got a scar on my hand here. I got this when I was a kid. So if we count the age of my skin or the scar by the age of the matter that's there, the skin that's there, well, this is only about three years old and it's been swapped out. That same scar has been swapped out by brand new scars dozens of times. So if all we are or what remains the same or try to answer the question of what we are by answering the question of what remains the same, not a whole lot remains the same or at least it doesn't last 18 some odd years. Your body, even your brain, right? It used to be kind of a standard belief or doctrine that your brain didn't generate new brain cells, new neurons. They knew they died off, but they didn't think that they generated new one. Well, recent evidence suggests that they generate those too. So even your neurons are replaced. So if what you are, what remains the same or try to answer the question of what you are, what remains the same if it's your body, well, then you're at most seven to 10 years old you replace something very much like you and something's gonna replace you soon enough.  Maybe you say it's your mind. Well, your mind changes. You have different beliefs than you did when you're a kid. Shoot, you have different beliefs than you did when you're five years old. You're constantly adding to your beliefs. Even the values you have change, right? Those deeply held values. You'd be surprised how much those are gonna change over time. What you hold passionately to right now, you hold to it so strongly, you're not always gonna hold on to that. You'd be surprised how often that changes over the decades. Your personality changes. I already mentioned values if we're gonna count personality is, or excuse me, count your values as a function of or a constituent of your personality. Your personality changes, right? You don't react to things the same way that you did even probably even last year. Certainly five years ago, most definitely 10 years ago, I presume nobody here throws them or nobody listens to this video throws themselves on the floor pounding their fists in a tantrum of fury when they don't get their way. If you do, probably need to go get some help for that. Your personality changes over time. It's not done changing.  Your personality is not static. It's not your body. It's not your mind. Or what you are is your body, your mind. Well, you haven't been around that long. There's something that's gonna replace you.  But it won't be you. Your will, your will changes. It diminishes. It's stronger one day from the next. Weaker the next, I mean weaker that day. So it's not your body and it's not your mind. Now, maybe try something like your soul. Okay, I mean you could try something like that, I suppose, but what do you mean by soul?  That changes. So if it is your soul and your soul just is those things, well then you got a new soul every once in a while. If it's not those things, if it's not your mind, if it's not your emotions, if it's not your values, if it's not something like that, then what are you talking about? I mean, I can more or less perceive my emotions. I know when I feel angry and I know when I feel sad. I can more or less identify the beliefs I have and if I did a thorough enough history, I'd be able to figure out when these beliefs change. So I can identify or at least spot at least some of these emotions, at least some beliefs, at least some personality traits, but these things are identifiable. And if a soul is not one of these things, if it's not the beliefs, it's not the emotions, it's not the values, then you can't even see your soul. You can't identify it. What you are is fundamentally unknowable. Eesh, that seems scary. You know, we today use the soul in kind of a weird sort of way compared to the ancients.  Just like a really transparent version of you. That's due to the movies. It's not what the ancients meant by soul. The ancients meant something like life force might be a better way to describe it today, life force. Well, you know, so it's like a battery. It's not the mind, but what allows the mind to think. It's not the beliefs, but what allows the beliefs to become known. It's not the emotions, but what makes the emotions vivid or gives rise to the emotions within you. And if the soul just is a life force like that, okay, I mean, that's a way you can go. Strange consequence here is what you are in this life force, again, probably not something that you hold onto dearly, right? You hold onto your beliefs and your values with a clenched fist, but the force that does, that is not the same thing as those values but gives rise to them, it's different. Maybe it makes you wonder what I'm supposed to make one difference, make the difference between one soul or another. If it's just a life force. I mean, if it's a life force, it's something like a battery, right? You can swap out batteries. If you really are just this soul and it's not the same thing as the mind, it's not the same thing as the body, it's not the same thing as the emotions, it's not the same thing as the beliefs, it just gives you ability to use all these parts of you or it gives them force, gives them movement. Okay, but that's all the soul is. How do you know the soul isn't swapped out overnight, you know? Old souls depleted as a power source, it's pulled out and new souls put in. A soul is not seen. It's not heard or tasted out. I'm not saying a soul doesn't exist. Please don't get up in arms and riled up about this sort of thing. All I'm saying is if you try to identify the soul with something like your beliefs and values, would those change? And if that is what your soul is, okay, fine. I mean, you could do that but then the consequence is that your soul changes over time. If your soul is this life force, how do you know it's the same one? I'm not saying it isn't. All I'm saying is you're pointing to something. You say, I ask you the question, what is it that remains the same through the course of your life? I'm like, so the change is say, it's this life force. Like, great, how do you know it's there? It's like, well, I really don't. Okay, I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing but you haven't given me any reason to believe what you believe. You wanna say DNA? Well, if you really wanna say DNA, there are people, two different people with the same DNA, right? There's, I forget whether it's fraternal or maternal twins. It's one of the two, the same zygote. And even if we say what you are is from that body, well, there's, you know, with that sort of thing, well, twins are the same people because at one point they have the same body. Now, imagine this is a little bit frustrating by now. Well, imagine trying to be a philosopher. Philosophers have been trying to answer the question, what does it mean? You know, what is this unity, this personal identity through time? Not personal identity is in the sense of, you know, what do I identify with? But, you know, what is it that remains the same amongst all the changes? By the way, even when you identify with that, can and does change, you know? Philosophers were trying to answer the question, you know, ever since Heraclitus. What's this unity and diversity? We haven't come up with a non-controversial answer. There's lots of answers. We've got lots of different answers. Well, we haven't come up with one that's non-controversial. So if you're frustrated, you're not alone. But frustrated doesn't mean that we're simply just creating a problem for your answers. The problem's there. But I find it very interesting that we haven't been able to answer this question yet we often presume that we know what we are. Okay. If you know what you are, that's fine. Write it down. Let's see what you got.


Hello everyone, this is financial author Amit Dan of AmitDan.com. On this channel, you'll find financial travel and more videos just like the one you're watching right now. If you like what you see, please give me the thumbs up and consider subscribing. Canada's Best Great Curse by ManiSense. Hello everyone, this is financial author AmitDan of AmitDan.com. Today, I'll talk about Canada's Best Great Curse list just published by the ManiSense magazine. ManiSense magazine has been publishing its annual rankings of Canada's Best Great Curse every year and until this year, I have always questioned its questionable selection of Canada's Best Travel Great Curse. Selecting WestJet World Elite MasterCard as the Canada's Best Travel Great Curse year after year was questionable because how can a Great Curse or travel Great Curse can be the best Great Curse when it has a low return, for example 1.5% return on everyday purchases and this card event doesn't provide trip cancellation insurance and concierge services which many other cards provide. Now, we do not know what goes on behind the scenes, whether there has been compensations by WestJet to make this card the number one great card until now. Another major reverse website, reverse Canada, has questionable selection of Canada's Best Travel Great Curse which has been selecting the American Express Gold Travel Great Curse year after year and this is also raised questions what type of compensation American Express is providing because the American Express Gold Travel Great Curse does not even have full insurance coverage such as trip cancellation insurance and concierge service whether many other great cards that charge less annual fee than American Express Rewards Gold Great Curse provide those services and these sites they are based on affiliated links so the more you'll hear about good things about these cards and the more people will sign up clicking on their links and the more money they will make. For that reason you'll see that Rewards Canada recommending American Express Gold Trade Curse almost every month and there is an article about how good the American Express Great Curse is being published very often almost a month or even sometimes twice a month and definitely the more people will hear good things about this card the more people will sign up by clicking on their links and the more people and the more money the site will make. So they don't worry about who are signing up for this great curse and in case they require trip cancellation insurance or concierge services because they're happy as long as they're getting money from the American Express when you're signing up clicking on their links. This year in 2017 the Canada's Best Great Curse published by MoneySense magazine is more aligned to reality and I'm happy to see that it ditched the WestJet World Elite MasterCard as the Canada's best travel reverse great card. So just go over briefly what other what cards are MoneySense magazine selecting for this year and we'll talk about mainly travel great card and cashback great card. So this year number one travel great card on the list by MoneySense magazine is PMO World Elite MasterCard. Number two best travel reverse great card is the Scotia American Express Gold Travel Great Card and number three great card is the American Express Gold Great Card. Now this list is better than any years before and it is more aligned to reality as looks like they chose the best great cards based on their features and reverse not just based on other things and maybe reasons that wouldn't make sense at all. In terms of best cashback great cards let's look at what cards MoneySense magazine is choosing for this year. The best cashback great cards for 2017 according to MoneySense is number one Scotia Bank Momentum Visa Infinite Card number two MB&A Rewards World Elite MasterCard and number three American Express Simply Preferred Cashback Great Card. Except these two categories which are travel reverse great card and cashback great card MoneySense has also published a list of reverse great card and another list is student reverse great card and another one is no fee great card. So this year the list has done better job than any other years and these are the these are some cards that's made on the list I just mentioned. If you like to know more about how these cards are selected you can read MoneySense magazine which I'll provide you with a link on the screen and some of the cards I have reviewed on my YouTube channel and I'll provide you a link in the description box below. I'd like to mention that my site and YouTube channel always provide honest and unbiased non-affiliated link information so all these great cards I'm reviewing or mentioning to you they're not affiliated and I do not make money mentioning those to you so whatever you're seeing or the reviews you're getting they're totally honest and unbiased and for that reason Canadians are coming back more and more to get honest information on my YouTube channel so I hope to see you again shortly. Please subscribe and like and that's all for now bye


What's good Josh your boy Ross back at a game with another video, so She has returned y'all Kazumi returns with a friend and tells another insane King paying story now. I've reacted to her on a no jumpers podcast maybe a few months back and she Was very explicit on certain things that she gets into and she is Ultimately for the streets, but it seems like She is back to grace us with another another story another one of her life stories, and I'm pretty sure She will still be for the streets You know say it and I'm not here to judge anybody you do what you do You know I'm saying in your free time. It's your life. You live it But you know at some point you gotta be like yo man like is this What my life is about to amount to is this what people are gonna remember me as someone that was super Mega for the streets. I don't know but hey if if she's okay with it Apparently she's making some good money off of it. So I'm pretty sure she's not tripping over the situation Then it works for her, but you know hey, man Two weeks is on we're gonna check out and see what Kazumi has to say man See if she's changed her ways, but by the title. No, she did not. Let's get into it Patriot sending free news for people who send their backs card. I saw that I'm only five seconds into the video And that's the first thing I hear I've been selling or giving away nudes for people Who show their vaccination card? I just I need to run that back just to make sure I heard everything I heard correctly Hold on y'all. I've actually been selling Sending free news for people who send their backs card. I saw that Ladies and gentlemen, let's give her a round of applause.  I love it Very well like Like get vaccinated.   I What everyone should get backs I don't care what anyone thinks about that like my cheerleaders over here. Thank you get backs and you'll see my wax Get back and you'll see my wax I guess that's how easy it is y'all get waxed you see the badge Okay, I can at least say hey, she's not out here smashing Everybody, you know I'm saying if you are gonna have some sex Especially with a lot of different partners You want to make sure you get tested make sure they get tested make sure they show their results Because you know hey, that's a dangerous game you play. So that's the one thing I can give her but she's still for the streets, but She's for the vaccinated streets now I love it all 36 of those gentlemen have their cards on them. Then it's pre-covid. Oh, okay. I'm sorry So wait, so how has your life changed since we last had you on the show because you had like 60 000 followers I think at that time and now you have like 300 000 I actually hadn't figured out how to accept everybody until a few weeks ago Which is why I just blew up because I finally just accepted everyone into my instagram I did notice that it wound up really quickly and I was thinking that maybe you bought some but okay I was gonna let you live though.  There's some fellas like they can't resist Getting some of that sweet kizumi It's been good. I've been eating a lot because you said something crazy happened there.  Yeah, of course. Oh, let me introduce avon So Where did you come from and how did you end up in her little prostitution network? Well, she took on 10 guys in one night and they took her under a wing Well, we met through like twitter pretty much Um, I mean I started with like my snapchat premium and all that started going on like twitter Instagram and just like slowly trying to meet like other girls who do it too And then my kizumi We talked just hit it off. So we've been like hanging out making content ever since then She's straight from the philippine.   Yeah, that was insane. I literally squirted it on like a girl It was like project that like it was like See her only fans is like if jeff bezos had an only fan It was like we were all nuns and we were just Re-enacting her true life, which is just being a bad shitty nun into philippines and then we had our I don't know like I don't know how to just you have to watch it But like you just have to wait We all squirted on this woman's body while she was screaming. It was like it was like the exorcist except Who's the woman? Our friend kitty k fan. She is not here. But that was that's her and she's she's an attractive girl too I didn't know if you found they're both from the philippines And people they tend to associate asian girls with pretty faces and just pretty unremarkable flat bodies But what kazumi is done here is she's created some sort of hybrid where she's she's got the figure of a black woman On an asian frame. It's like the best of both worlds, right? I'm loving it.  I'm born again virgin with white guys technically with my new body No white guys The things that she is saying does not compute.  Were you in a club or were you at a blackjack table? What were you doing here? Yeah I guess it was a white guy that's a for the details and I assume he had a suit on looked like he wasn't Anyways, we go up to his room It's like eight of his girls and we're like, wait, how are we gonna gang bang you? And he was like one guy in a room So put on the strap on and we obliterated his old man's booty hole, bro. Like we like Six hours Please give it so my white guy her gang bang. Why would you want to obliterate?  Do you think stop for me?  Nope That my initial reaction there. I What This is insane.  Whoa This is definitely gonna be probably demonetized, but it's okay.  He had an armory And he came with the props. He came with the props. He knew what he wanted Asian girl gang bang here is dumbfound it. I love it though.  So she's a pioneers what you're saying Get rid of white privilege by just obliterating somebody with some dildos I told y'all man at the beginning of this video. She is saving the world One dildo one vaccination card at a time. She's still on the streets though He was like he was also wearing a wig and a bra and stuff It's just like a whole oh so he's trans. No, so he was a woman Sounds like a woman He was just you know, having fun in vegas. Yeah Just wanted something different, you know, what a vibe. Oh my god. That is crazy. Yeah, the scene is we were at a yoga Yeah, it was like a yoga. Yeah, right.  No, no, she was she was here today I would like to ask this kazoo me because you said when you came in and people who are watching instead of just listening We'll see the kazoo me is sitting on a modified Brazilian butt lift seat. She cannot physically sit down which begs the question. Can you physically do yoga or exercise? No, so Yeah, porn is fake. I guess I didn't actually do yoga.   Are you able to jog? Are you able to lift weights? What are the limitations with that? I'm able to do that, but it doesn't mean I will so You don't work out or anything I mean, I should I'm gonna get there sex or size. Yeah. Oh, we do that all the time, right? Oh, we do that all the time. So, yeah I don't even know what to say to this other than Yo, this is She is wild That's funny In the the next recommended video is my video reacting to me, you know me reacting to uh My first time seeing her on no jumper. So it's funny that that's the next video Uh, to check out one of the next videos to check out And then the thumbnail of that video she is for the streets She's still for the streets. Um I don't even know what to say man yo, I I don't have much to say I don't I have I don't have much to say here Comment down below Let me know Would y'all get vaccinated? Just to see her nudes for free Let me know if y'all would do that. Let me know if she's the deciding factor for some of y'all to finally get Appreciate all the love and support Well, just 60k appreciate y'all kicking it with me and I'll see y'all up next way


Mae wedigylched arall, o'r cyfrun genedliethol, mae'n meddwl i'ch fath o'n brydydd, trofwch, barod o'r rhannu, roeddwyl gwarodol, ond iddyn nhw i ni'n jion. Mae'r myfyrdd jwyl wedi cyfafchildrenio ar yr eich Ynigllun, gyda'r gweithio'r cyfrwch, gallwn ar gyfnodur diwrnodau i amlŷch. Mae'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud o'r ddweud yn gyfrwch, I walked in. I realised it's going to be one of the most traumatic shoots I've ever had. He went right up to me aggressively with two fingers pointing into my chest and he said, You better be photographing a guy who's happy and not some kind of snarler. Get it? Wow. So what was happening? Now all I can do is give you my take. You see I have witnessed many heads of state and government as they leave office, they go through a very painful transition of power. Suddenly there is time to reflect on their legacy to get perspective on the decisions that were made when they had the seat of power and I suspect he was going through a very difficult time himself. So what does he do? The last thing he wants is someone like me recording that painful process on film. So he wants me to show the mask of politics. In every picture he insisted on this ridiculous goofy smile. And I thought I was failing as a storyteller and as a photographer because all I was getting was the lie. But sometimes the mask tells you more about the truth actually than the truth does. So Tony Blair. I loved Tony Blair and this was also after he left office. And I said to him you know Tony the day you were elected I was a humble art student in England facing a terrible recession and no opportunities of a proper career. And I cried tears of joy because I thought finally my generation have got a leader that is one of us. This look comes over his face and he says well that's all very nice but did I live up to your expectations. To me I've witnessed power very intimately not intellectually but from a human gut level and it does definitely include one side which is good leadership is power, authority, charisma, capacity to make important decisions. But good leadership is also about something else and that is service. And how can you be a strong dynamic character and yet still regard yourself as a servant of the people. Sometimes there's a conflict there and for me to learn about service I didn't learn enough of that from the heads of state I've worked with. I needed to go somewhere else. So I decided to do a big large scale photo essay once I was taken on by the New Yorker magazine and it was called service and I wanted to photograph ordinary people, men and women who serve their country in America in the armed forces. Now I did this work eight years ago and I wanted in all earnest to avoid all politics. I'd kind of had enough of it and it was time to just focus on the humanity so I'm going to show you some pictures. I got embedded with the US military for about nine months. This is graduation day at West Point Academy. It could have been something from 150 years ago. Then basic training. This soldier, it's his first day. So they shaved his hair off, they've given him new clothes and he's not got his boots fitted yet so he's waiting in the corridor to have his boots.  There's a sense of strength, courage, excitement about serving his country. He stands to attention in front of a civilian like me. So it's not much to say about this. It kind of speaks for itself. But in the desert in California, the US military own about 100 square miles and they have built Iraq and Afghanistan in that desert. And they simulate towns in those places for their soldiers. And two weeks before deployment, all the US military soldiers go to this place and it's called the Suck because it's about as brutal experience as you can get as close to war. And this was during that time. They have a street called Trauma Lane and they employ hundreds of civilian Iraqis to have a marketplace to sell fruit, vegetables, to simulate a real town. And the soldiers are driven in in a platoon and then they're ambushed.  This Humvee is blown up three times. And over here you see a soldier coming out screaming covered in fake blood from Hollywood makeup artists. And he's holding bits of his body screaming in pain saying somebody help me. And they do this to desensitise the soldiers so that when they get used to seeing these things, when it happens for real, they're not rendered defenseless. This is the guy who's a role playing amputee. He's the one that was in the previous picture. And again, it's Hollywood makeup. They put blood all over him to make it even more effective. His job is to shock. This is the Humvee. Blown up three or four times a day. This is in California. And this lady is an incredible lady. She's the head recruiter. And she employs so many people from Iraq to work for the US government to help advise on cultural behaviour, on how to treat people with dignity, so that when they go into people's houses, they know how to behave. Then I got involved with the Navy. This is Seaman SS linebury. And every day on a ship, they choose one of the sailors to lower the flag at the end of the day to put the ship to sleep and then raise the flag to wake the ship up in the morning. And you can see the sense of pride and dignity in his face because it's his first day out at sea. And he's so proud to get the chance to do that. This is him and his friends. It's like anchors away with Gene Kelly and Frank Sinatra. Now, this is Maiden voyage SS Antonio. And this sailor, he's never been out before. He's about to be deployed. He doesn't know how long he'll be away from home and they don't tell him where he's going either. And you can see that sense of mystery of his future in his face. The families that are left behind. Great sacrifice from the families. Women with young children will probably have to bring up the children for at least a year. Perhaps in some terrible cases, a lot, lot longer. And women who are pregnant also know that they will give birth without their partner or their husband present.  It's very, very painful. This little boy, his daddy is in the Marines. Pretty much guess what he'll be doing when he grows up. I went to a marine wedding. And it was a beautiful day. There was this so much pomp and circumstance and so much love and respect. And then after the ceremony, I got an opportunity to photograph the bride. And she sat for me and all of a sudden this happened. And everything changed.  And I said, you should be so happy. Congratulations. And she said, well, my new husband is being deployed tomorrow. And they tell me the chances are he'll be away for a year and a half. And hopefully he'll come back. So my wedding didn't really last very long, she said. So this is the point where everything started to turn for me on my journey. And I now started focusing on the return. Because at this point it was all about mobilisation, forward thinking, excitement to serve your country. So this is the return. I waited with this young girl for about five hours for her fiance to return from war. He's been away for maybe 12, 13 months. Now these guys are like rock when they come home from war, physically and mentally in some cases. And he pulls up in the Humvee, drops his bag. And this young lady charges at him like a team of wild horses and nearly knocks this guy over with a force of love that I've never seen. In fact, I had to tilt the camera, you can see, because I wasn't expecting the composition to do that. The hug, the embrace. The first moment you embrace your loved one after so long. But looking to his eyes, something's changed. The idea of service has shifted and there's pain now. There's sacrifice now. This picture was taken at the Army Hospital, Walter Reed. And it's divided in two halves. The top half is love, trust, loyalty and compassion. The bottom half is pain, tragedy and sacrifice. You see, she's his wife. And she looks at us and she's saying something very important. There's a transference of power right now. She's taking over. And she says with a protective arm around her man, I've got him home. And no one, no one will hurt my man ever again. And for the first time he feels a sense of strength in her so that he can let go. I went to Arlington Cemetery and I photographed many bereaved families there who had lost sons and daughters in America's most recent wars. And one day I saw a lady right across the end of the cemetery. And every day she goes to her son's grave who died fighting in Iraq. And she brings a little fold-out picnic chair and she sits down and reads a book to his spirit. I was so moved by this beautiful expression of dealing with loss in a very dignified way. And so I went over to her and I explained what I was doing and asked if she would sit for me and she graciously agreed. She took the book she was reading and she placed it at the bottom of the gravestone. And she got behind the gravestone and cuddled it as if she's hugging her son. Now I was so aware of our body language and the sensitivity of the moment that I didn't even notice that the book she was reading is the Quran. And I didn't even read what was on the headstone because I was focused on her mannerisms and I was just devastated by the fact that she closed her eyes for me. So it wasn't until I got back to the New Yorker and I was editing and I saw that there were these other elements added to the picture and it was an interesting story. We published this picture along with 20 other pictures in the magazine as part of this large scale photo essay and we published it three weeks before Obama his first election with John McCain. A week later I was watching the news on a program in America called Meet the Press and there's a very famous news anchor called Tom Brokaw who was the host. And he invited General Colin Powell to go on the news. There was an important statement to be made. So I was sitting watching with my wife and General Colin Powell said I have an important announcement to make. I can no longer endorse my fellow Republican John McCain. I am switching sides to support Barack Obama. Tom Brokaw, the news journalist said well with great respect General this is massive news. This is devastating news to the Republican party and it's only 16 days before the election day we're not even sure John McCain can recover from this because with you comes large parts of the military support and the Pentagon as well as many moderate Republicans will just follow you in support. What on earth made you change your mind? A photograph changed my mind said the general and he went on to describe this picture. He said let me be clear John McCain is a good man. He's a friend of mine and he's about as non discriminatory as any man could be. But I am disturbed by what I hear about the rhetoric in the Republican party. He said I hear at the back of the room sometimes in meetings Obama is a Muslim and he might be associated with terrorists. He said first he's not a Muslim. He's a Christian. But the real answer is what if he was a Muslim? He's wrong with being a Muslim in America. We are supposed to be a country united by our differences. We are supposed to be a country that celebrates the fact that we think and feel differently about things and we are supposed to be all free together. He said I saw a photograph of an American Muslim and she gave the greatest sacrifice to a country you could ever ask anybody to give her son's life. He said I would be very proud to stand by her side as a fellow American and even though I fundamentally disagree with Obama's economic policies I hope as a human being he will represent a more inclusive society. So I always put that above economic policies. So this picture was then voted the most powerful picture of the entire election. And it wasn't of Obama who I had worked with many times and it wasn't of John McCain who I'd also worked with or anyone powerful or famous or it wasn't anyone like that. It was a picture of the most ordinary lady dealing with something that we all have to deal with. The one thing that perhaps unites us all and that is that we all get to love and we all lose. So this is Jessica Gray she holds the flag they draped over her husband's coffin she has his wedding ring on a chain he was killed in Iraq few months before I took this picture and she had a three year old daughter. Now when you're killed in battle they send your belongings back to your loved ones in a metal box so she had not yet had the courage to open the box I was in her house and I suggested that maybe she should wear an article of his clothing as a tribute to him in the picture so she said well I'd love to wear his army t-shirt but it's in the box so now in front of me a complete stranger it was time to open the box I knelt by the box with her and we both undid one latch each and she did the lid she cried and I suddenly felt ashamed because here I am as a photographer almost being predatory and taking advantage of a situation for the sake of a picture and I knew this is one of those moments where I did cross the line and I apologised to her and I said please Jessica you've been hurt enough and this was the worst idea I ever had I don't want to put you through any more pain it's only a photograph let's leave this idea and she says you don't understand why I cry she says I'm crying because I just realised they washed his clothes and I wanted to smell him again this is what it is my friends to be alive these are the sensory perceptions that we all have as human beings no matter who we are and if I can dare to set you a homework assignment it's that you wake up tomorrow with a clear head and if there's anyone in your life that you respect, love or admire tell them because you still have a chance so I end with this picture eight years later as Obama prepares for the moment where he reflects on his legacy that you Bush did just like Tony Blair did and it slightly worries me that after eight years of progress in quotes the rhetoric is still there and unfortunately this whole photo essay that I did that should be well out of date now is troublingly relevant so thank you for listening


Just to give a quick introduction. So what do we do with CD events? It's a common specification for continuous delivery event. So there's a lot of fragmentation in the CD space. There are a lot of tools that you can use for different parts of your workflow from writing code to getting a software into production. And all these different tools they interact with each other within each other in different ways. So often you have to build, I guess, this kind of metrics of integration point-to-point. It becomes really complex to maintain and troublesome. So we came up with the idea of, let's define a common language, common dictionary, using the event-based paradigm for all these tools to talk together in a common language so that we can kind of repaint the picture to something that looks more like this, where you have different tools in your pipeline and they can all send CD events, they can all declare what they are doing, and then you can have some kind of broker that collects these messages, store them, and then you can take decision based on this information you got from these events. You can apply policies, you can have triggers, and decide to trigger different parts of your workflow based on that. And so, yeah, so the main, I guess, idea within CD events is to bring interoperability to this space. And the other thing that we are looking to help with is observability, so that you can take informed decision in your pipeline, basically. So, because when we went from the initial picture to this event-driven approach, there are some questions that may become harder to answer, like what is running right now in your workflow, what steps have been executed, if things go wrong, where things broken, and how long does it take to run the whole thing. So, if we start storing events, collecting them and storing them, then we can bring this visibility and we can collect data, we can build metrics, we can provide nice view about the entire workflow. So, interoperability and observability, these are the two main things that we are trying to solve with CD events. Well, a bit of history, maybe. We started within the CD foundation. We have an interoperability special interest group. We started discussing about interoperability, and then another interest group was created out of it, specifically to look at the events in the area of interoperability. And so, the CD events project was born out of that, and we had the first commit in October 2020, and then it's an incubated project in the CDF since 2022. Is it 2020? I need to check the slides, sorry. So, we announced zero-one release in Detroit last year, and then the initial focus was orchestration event, software configuration management CI CD events, and other features that we have a cloud event binding. So, cloud events are a CNCF standard for envelope for events in the cloud native space. So, we have a binding so that you can send this CD event information through cloud events, and we initially released also Golang SDK and support for some developed metrics. And so, we have been working continuously on CD events, and we've brought some more features. So, we expanded our scope to continuous operations.  So, we had great contribution from the TestCube folks that contributed test events, so they can be used for notification, test-driven automation. We did some work in the area of software supply chain security, so we introduced an artifact signed event that you can send when an artifact is being signed. And also, we have a lot of quality of life improvements, like we improved the ability of the specification, we introduced JSON schemas, we produced examples for each event. We also refreshed the website, hopefully to give a better experience when you're onboarding on CD events. We have some nice features in the SDK as well. I don't want to spend too much time here, and we got some really cool adoption. I think it was announced in the keynote already, but there are a lot of more projects we are talking to them, both we have today, so we have the work in progress, so we have the Jenkins that is done, so we have experimental supporting tech, don't we have Spinnaker that is happening, TestCube that is happening, but we also talk to a lot of other communities. We were in Amsterdam, at CubeCon, couple of weeks ago, I guess, and we spoke to Argo and Flags folks, we spoke to Harbour. Harbour, the registry project, they announced cloud event support, so they are interested in also using something like CD events. And other projects, TraceTest, JairReleaser, ShipRide, Jenkins X, they all expressed some interest in this. Okay, just keep through these, maybe I wanted to tell a little bit about the roadmap that we have in mind. So we definitely want to expand on supply chain security type of features. So right now we introduced this artifact signed event, but we want to have more better data model in CD events to capture information about bombs, provenance, attestation and all these features that are important to the supply chain security. Another feature that we started discussing is the ability of signing the event themselves so that you can actually trust that the content of the event has not been tampered with. This becomes important if you start relying on these events to build features that are important really for your execution workflow or some suggested even, we were discussing with the CNCF up delivery tag and a Qtcon. And one question that was really interesting is like, can you consider your set of events as a signature of your artifact? So if you have certain sequence of events happening, you say kind of this represents an attestation of this artifact. And yeah, you could think of a model like that, but you need to be able to trust your events again, right? So something that we, sorry, we had been working on for some time and hopefully we'll get in the next release and it's a very important feature is the ability to link events together. So we have context now within the events in the data model that we have that allows you to connect different events with each other. We have this concept of subjects. So subjects that are unique IDs so you can connect through events using this mechanism but we want to have the ability of having more explicit type of links within events. So we are discussing how to best implement this, right? So you want to be able to say like, okay, I got this my events storage and what are all the events that are related to this artifact or what are all the events that are related to this pipeline execution or what are, yeah, so that's the kind of things. We are discussing things like compositions. So we have certain data model assumptions today that are simplified because we wanted to get started and get the ball rolling. Like we have artifacts and deployments but we usually model like deployment is a deployment of one artifact but we want to have the ability to say, well, you could have a deployment of a composition of artifacts so the ability to compose this existing data model in more complex type of things. Yeah, there's plenty of work to do in documentation examples, SDKs, proof of concepts and yeah, so today I didn't mention that though let me go just back a little bit. So today, CD events is specification and SDKs but in this picture there is this broker in the middle with the policies and triggering bits and that becomes very important when you want to start receiving events and doing things based on that and we think that there is space for standardization in that area as well. We don't have that part in CD events today but we know that different initial adopters or people they implement this within different companies so that's an area where we can try and expand our scope and get some standardization as well. And so that's included in the roadmap here broker and policy. How are we doing in time? Yeah, so we, as I was mentioning we have a few collaborations ongoing with the, still with the CIG and the CDF so we have one special interest group in the CDF which is about best practices we shouldn't say they're interrupt and one initiative they're driving is the reference architecture within the CDF so we want to work with them to include CD events in the reference architecture and we talked as I mentioned with the CNCF tag up delivery and we are also discussing with the Value Stream Management Interoperability Group they're also interested in bringing interoperability in the Value Stream Management area and there is a good amount of overlap with what we are doing. Right, yeah. Yeah, I think that's enough. Hopefully people manage the lunch. Yeah, I would just open the floor for two questions, comments, ideas if people want to discuss about something please take the mic and I'll just. Yeah, so Andrea we were talking about the broker so when we were doing, we called the message bus but we used Kafka and I've been working on a concept of a workshop that does events and we were talking about using Red Panda is there a particular technology we've talked about with using for the brokers? Sorry, I just wanted to get some notes. So no, we have not talked about any specific technology yet. We have not talked really about this yet. But it's very much like to start the discussion so please. So in general, I'll tell you that our experience with Kafka has been fun. Is that why broker sounds very much like broken? Yeah, I'll say, well, no, look, the Jenkins guy is here I don't want to hurt his feelings but look, I'm going to tell you I don't like Java in my pipeline. I do have a bunch of Jenkins servers though. But I don't like the Java in the pipeline and then the first thing we ran into was the message limit size like when we were doing this which is three years ago, think in the past Kafka's default message size is one megabyte, right? And so we have, if you guys went to the Fidelity presentation they had this evidence server where they store their stuff. Well, we've got the same similar thing and we ended up putting a one megabyte limit on what you could put into it for the same reason because you didn't want to be able to put it on the Kafka but you couldn't put it on the Kafka bus if it was bigger than a megabyte. So had I been able to do it again I would use Red Panda, which is completely well, it's supposed to be Kafka, like Kafka-like like you don't have to change much to switch to Red Panda but it's missing some of the features. But what we found out was is that we didn't need the features. I just need somewhere to stick these messages and I need to be able to replay them if something dies. So if one of the consumers dies I just want to be able to go back to where it left off and pick up again. So that was something I was thinking about for a workshop, so. Ask, should the CD-1s project really endorse certain technologies or that type of stuff should go into reference implementation or something like CD-1s could come up with reference architecture here's the broker, we use Kafka, they use Rabbit MQ and different implementations could make choices of different technologies like CICD orchestrators or so. For the broker, using Red Panda would be reference and I'm not saying that the CD events should do anything other than say, hey we've got this JSON blob you need to be able to stick on the message bus you consume it however you want and if you want to use Rabbit MQ you get to do the bleeding when all the rabbits die. So, however you want to do this you want to use Red as fine when it runs out of memory and it dies, use it. And so that's what I was thinking more is that the Fresca reference architecture type thing where we go, hey we used Red Panda here but you can use whatever you want, right? And you get to pay the consequences, so. So are you kind of saying like maybe for MVP-1 we start with this initial broker and then expand to it with more capabilities because I agree, Kafka, I've dealt with enough Kafka to tell you, yeah, let's not go near that. So any more comments? They didn't have any wireless mics like this one, I was a kid. What were we talking about again? Kafka, Confluent, I've got Kafka Cloud, I've got Kafka on-prem and I've got a connector between the two of them so that I can run stuff in the cloud and run stuff on-prem, don't do that.  I'm just saying stay away from it but to be not specific to Red Panda, but for MVP-1, hey, here's what we're gonna do, MVP-2 will include RabbitMQ or whatever you wanna use. Whatever queuing system, is that what you're kind of building on? We can add more as more people adopt it. Yeah, so the idea here is that CDEvents doesn't say you need to use this queuing system or this message bus, CDEvents is like, we've got a JSON blob for you and it does really cool stuff, put it wherever you want, right? If God help you, if you wanna write it to a file on a Jenkins server and pick it up by the next Jenkins server and read it in, you can, right? Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's like, you're right, your solution is better. Get to work. That's how you get contributions, right? Yeah.  I couldn't rip out all the Jenkins and put the tecton in. I had to just say, okay, look, there's a JSON blob that you have to produce and you post it to my evidence server to use your terms and then the evidence server will put the message on the Kafka bus and then all the little robots that are watching that bus will just do stuff, right? And that's how we attacked it and it was because there's teams that like needed to use curl to post a JSON blob and I didn't wanna have them have to write Avro. What? With bash. That sounds beautiful. It does. No, and I fully agree that we, going back to Jenkins, let's just talk about that. I'm just kidding. No, let's not. We had, when we released a plugin for our team, we send data to Kinesis, but we're like, let's build this in a way so if someone wants to contribute, they can add a different endpoint. And so we built it in a way to where it's like, okay, right now you can do an HTTP endpoint or Kinesis, but if you wanna do it, we already have the general framework, you add a new button on the UBI, you add your classes, and now anyone can contribute and I think that's a great way to go. If you've gotta start with one and then say, here's a contribution if you wanna add a different broker type. So I think that'd be great. What did you guys use? Kinesis. Kinesis. So for the rest of the world, that doesn't wanna repeat the same experience over and over again, it'd be awesome to also contribute your findings. Like what you didn't like about Kafka, can we have not only an example, reference implementation, but also have running conversation on these other things. So you don't have to convince everyone over and over of the same thing. I'm glad we claim any technology.  It's just a matter of what software works enough to get your job done that doesn't get you fired. Right? The nature of open. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Open awkward and open embarrassed and open humiliated. That's right. It's all okay. Yeah, it's bleeding edge and you get to do the bleeding. And you get to keep all the pieces. That's all I got. None of that helped Andrea.  Behind you? I just wonder, so a deployment release, is there any scope, obviously with the t-shirt open features or any scope for feature flagging? Because if you've got version one running, but you've got different feature flags operating on that version, then your version one doesn't really mean very much anymore. There are things going on inside that artifact that don't really have very much to do with the version. I wonder if CD events is gonna tackle that scope or is that out of scope? That's a great question. It's not something with considered yet, but it seems like something relevant to me because like you said, especially if we want the ability to connect events and I don't know, you have something changes in your production environment. Maybe there was no, there was a deployment, but not a deployment that brought in any new software version. That's something that changes the configuration. I guess it depends a little bit how you model an artifact, if an artifact is a combination of the software and the configuration that goes with it, or if it's, but like if you consider something like open feature, then you're storing the flags in a separate service, right? So the feature flags. And so it might be that you don't have any change at all in your main service, but you have a change in behavior because you actually have a, I guess you could see it as a deployment to the open feature configuration, but it may be something that we might want to model more accurately and more specifically. So yeah, that's a great question. I don't know if people have any comments on, yeah. Yeah, I just wanted to say that I agree with that assessment that that's like a part of a deployment. And one of the things that I get worried about, especially as we're expanding context, is that we're not, be sure that we're looking at it as, okay, is this a sub context of something, of a concept that already exists, right? And so you're talking at least, in the way at least I'm hearing it, it sounds like your feature flags are something that the deployment section of CD events should be implementing or thinking about or there's a place for it there as a part of that deployment, you wanna change this configuration as it's deployed. But then that's still a part of a deployment event and not something completely separate. And just understanding the context and where those things fit in, let's us put standardization around it, it allows for us really strong lasting language models. And that's the thing that I like most about CD events, this is the way that it's very well-sectioned. And as long as we think in terms of where are these events happening, what's the sub context, what are they a part of? We can get really, really, really granular about it and keep expanding it and make sure that CD events sticks around a long time. That's a very good point. That's why I brought it up here because I'm sure we don't all wanna fragment this to the nth degree and then it becomes useless that you've got an event for everything. We'll take this kind of offline, but a deployment is an artifact. To me, it's an artifact going out whereas feature flags happen at runtime without any sort of redeployment or anything. So sure. And to that point, it's like you can have something watching for this deployment event and then say, okay, I need some runtime changes, I need the media. Or you can signal it as part of the deployment saying, when this deploys, these are the runtime things that need to be done. Maybe that's the terminology then, a runtime event or something that happened. And then that's regardless of feature flags or security or anything that happened, yeah. So the one thing you have to be careful with is that if you get too many different topics, you can't tie them back together. And so we did with our event driven system since we're in ISV and I deliver these units that the customer can deploy, right? About 270 OCI images, for example. And they all have very RPM-like names because I'm an RPM guy. So they're name, version, release, platform ID package. That's how we track everything through the system. So if I deploy that name, version, release, platform ID package, the event has that data in it and you can tie it back together. And then you just reissue the data, right? And then so in the context of the deployment, what I would say is that if you have a deployment event and it has feature flags in it and you change the feature flags, that's a new deployment even though it's not. You put another event on the bus that says deployment and then maybe there's a deployment false and then you change the feature flags but that way you can track it because you're like, okay, give me all the events that happened for this deployment, right? And then so it gets really, really granular. And then so the one thing we did was that the NVRPP is what we call it. They're all strings and they can be whatever you want them to be. And so don't do that. It becomes a nightmare, that whole observability thing. Yeah, they're just a nightmare. So don't do that. Anybody else got anyone on that? I think the way that, well, the group that I work with, we're looking at links and way to link events across systems because this issue that you're talking about now, it's like what is gonna end up being the final product might have been deployed several places across several organizations to come up with something final. If we can't track that with links across multiple things, it's, you know, it gets lost in the shuffle quickly. But I agree with what you're saying and as long as we hold the categories strong at the higher levels, we can do things within granularity in that scope. And so it should be fine to do both, right? And this is about this organizational excellence where if we've categorized these things properly, we leave space for some granularity. We can hold our stories as they work best for those organizations. And at least when I first saw this, this is about this time last year, that was the first thing I noticed about it. That is, if we start at the top, we can control everything else as we flow down. So we're gonna be fine. You know how you get more microservices, right?  The same thing happens with the categorization of the events, right? So you do have to have some self-control, right?  Oh, it's not. Yeah, it is. Then Jamie comes looking for you. Why they don't let me touch certain systems? Could I bring him down? Just a logistic question. I'm not very good at taking notes, but I'm doing as best as I can here and I'll stick them on GitHub in an issue and I would really appreciate it. I mean, if you have more opinion and better notes than I have to go in there and express farther your opinion, so to compensate for my lack of note-taking. Those notes look fine. Okay, yeah, oh, that's brilliant. So we can get a transcript. Cool. So I have a question, Andre. Just thinking from the Python SDK, how do we get this into like AWS code pipeline? How do we work with these cloud providers to like really bake in CD events? Yeah, that's a great question. Anyone got the answer? So I know that I'm pretty sure Azure and I know Azure supports cloud events and so if we have cloud events as the base envelope, then you extend the cloud events with whatever you want to extend it with and they should support it. And then the schema is, we provide a schema. We've got a schema, right, Andrea? Yeah. Don't write JSON without schema. So anyway, yeah, we provide them a schema and say, hey, look, we've got this really cool thing. You should adopt it. And then this is an extension of cloud events. You're not gonna break anything if you're only running cloud events. This is just an extension. Now, I don't know who we talk to you because those are corporate entities. Yeah. I mean, we're partners with Microsoft. They might listen. Yeah. We could probably just find their headquarters and then stroll up and say, hi. You wanna talk to us? Good. I'm all in. When? Yeah. Yeah. We should look into. Yeah. Yeah, no. I'm all in. I like this idea, yeah. But yeah, so I think the strategy has been to start like we're doing, integrating into tools, get a critical mass, get like people actually starting to use events and then it becomes easier to show the business value, the advantages.  So yeah. When are we getting that Rust SDK? Yeah. It was a joke. Like the hotness of Rust. I'd love to learn Rust and have time to write it myself. So if anyone is willing to spend like one day with me and show me how to get started, I can do it.  My view. Oh, it's recorded. Okay. So be careful what you say. What? Look, my view on this, pretty simple. One, I do believe that if you, we have projects, CI CD projects and CDF, they should be supporting CD events. This is not something that we tell them to do from the CDF TOC. We explain the benefits, why it's a good idea. I know Spinnaker is working on it. I know Jenkins is working on it. And the hope is to have a user of those two using CD events to say, this is the benefit. This is the value we get out of it. We start to add other things. At that point, it becomes a lot easier to go to the commercial CI CD providers and have them at it. Reach out to our friends at Harness, or our friends at Octopus to play. Once that happens, then it's approached the cloud vendors because they are very jealous of certainly the reach that Harness and Octopus have. And go to AWS and say, hey look, code pipeline really needs this. Go to Azure, Azure DevOps really needs this. So it becomes a lot easier. So I think the first step is we need to, at CDF, we need to work really hard to support our projects to support CD events. We need to show them that it's a good idea. The second thing is that then it's reaching out to our friends at Commercial CI CD. And then from there, I think it's the next step is the cloud. I think that's how you get there. I don't think you go straight to the cloud vendors because I don't think they're spending a lot of dev budget. And if you've got a dollar and you're AWS, where are you gonna spend it? EC2, RDS, or are you gonna spend it in DevOps line? Just adding to that one of the things that I think is super important is to reach beyond cloud for things delivery. Cloud is not the only place we deliver software or software is delivered. There are a lot of companies that are delivering smaller packages to devices, all types of devices that have all of the same problems to deal with. Creating some momentum around that will improve your ability to draw in cloud vendors because if a company is using CD events to solve problems outside of cloud and they can tie this to the work that's in the cloud, then that benefits them. So when we talk about evangelism and getting more buy-in on CD events, have we ever thought of doing a presentation to different foundation projects? I know that as a member for certain foundations, you get webinars and stuff, but have we ever thought about using this as a resource for other projects at CNCF or at the CDF? And just hosting an impromptu, not impromptu, because it'd be scheduled. But just an informative fact-finding, like this is who we are, this is what we're doing, and look for other projects to your point, Robert, to get them on board with using CD events, getting onboarded now as opposed to later so that they can bring their two cents and maybe there's answers along the way to serve some of the problems that you've just identified that these projects are actually trying to solve by virtue of being a project. Again, like we say, the CNCF has 159 projects housed within it, right? CDF has nine and there's the Eclipse Foundation, all these other foundations that are out there. And so I'm just wondering like, should we do to Dedece's point a broader stroke and look at not just cloud, but on-prem, IoT, that kind of thing, is this kind of in your roadmap for evangelism or is it something that maybe the CDF can help do, make some connections, try to figure this out? Yeah, that's a great question. So I think we've done advocacy in the context, I guess like KubeCon, open source summit, false dam, so we went to this kind of conferences and CDCon, of course, presenting the project. And we've been to talk to different project maintainers individually. So we have been, I think there is a new initiative of workshops as well within the CDF and one of the potential topic is CD events. So that would be in line, I think, with what you're suggesting. Yeah, so I think the more we do in that area, the better, if we can reach more community, that's great. The only thing in my experience, it takes a certain amount of effort from the CD events project side as well to be involved in the community, to getting things started and moving. And I mean, for Jenkins, I mean, the friends of Fidelity that did a great job of driving that. But I think in many cases, you need really to be there and be in the community work together on an RFC. And so, yeah, it's a scaling issue that I see, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't spread the word more and more. So if we can expand our reach, for sure. Argo CD, I need it to make events. That's what I want. So let's go find the guy, he's here, right? And we'll go ask him, because you talked to them at KubeCon, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, those are places where we could ask, can we get, and then, of course, as good citizens we need to go help and contribute upstream, start a pull request, all the hard part, right? And I've got in my copious amounts of free time. Let me ask you, you said Rust, is that the next critical thing we need to look at? Because I commented on the Rust SDK issue, I was like, oh, this looks fun. Well, if we build a Rust SDK, then we can run CD events from Wasm. I'm here all night. What do you need to say? Did I get it right? I have a question to you, Elin, and Jar, and Jamie. I don't see Jamie here. So you said you started using CD events for parts of your pipelines, isn't it? Do you visualize them? So, are you going to answer that, or? So we've just now collected the data and we're seeing a full picture because of CD events. And one of my awesome teammates is starting to build the dashboards, build the visualizations. Now that we have- There's no CD events. Yes, tying it end to end. So. It does not happen in open source. Yeah, like a React framework that takes the event and visualizes it for you so you don't have to go rewrite that code. Cause we did that in-house for our dashboards in our proprietary stuff that we did in open source. So, which I want to open source, but we learned a bunch of lessons while we were building ours and we're thinking that maybe we just green field it again and go build it again outside. And then, but yeah, the React framework like when it gets the event, it just creates the page. Maybe like, since you said something, you are looking at this might be a topic to start. No, I can't write JavaScript or React at all. You can write. I could do it in Rust. Mark, definitely. You can write your ideas. So we should move all of our dashboards to mark down. Oh. Oh. Oh, I like this. All I'm trying to say is like you are trying to figure out how to turn those into some kind of visualization. Right. So maybe that conversation could take place purely around CD events in the community. I don't know. Cause I was going to ask Andrea, information we're interested in is, like any other company that is interested in this, not unique to anybody. Haven't started that work yet. Like, how do I do call it? How do I do compliance, how to measure security? Even if, you know, it was a product, it's something that broke production. Sorry. So we want to build something. We should probably talk in this community to see how to start, because make sure we started in the right way that would benefit and then more people could join. Versus we building something and then even contributing it. Like we did with Jenkins, right? We built it first. And then we put in the open source. This one should probably be built in partnership with the open source. Yeah. I mean, that would be great. And whatever. I guess one of the objective of creating interoperability and standard from the beginning is to foster this kind of initiative to make sense, to begin with and then to exist and to happen. And I mean, the final open source code that is written to produce this kind of tools, it doesn't have to be in the CD events organization. It can be. That's something we can discuss. But as long as it happens in the open and with collaboration, I think it's beneficial for everyone. Because like when I think as a user, because I've worked for an end user company for a long time, like when you look at JSON, when you look at Slice, when you look at GitHub, you listen to talks, oh, this is great, all kinds of benefits. But when you show people some diagrams that shows things that takes those events and turns them into red, green, yellow boxes, connects them to each other, then people could see that the power of this much better. Instead of asking them to imagine stuff, we can show them. Here it is. This is the simplest thing you can get from this. You can come together as much as you like and create different views of your software development lifecycle based on the audience. Program manager needs different, something different than developer and security people, for example, just. Yeah, because you've all these personas in every organization and then this information can be just Slice, Dice, rolled up. Andrea, do you have that slide? Can we see that slide that had the things at the bottom? Yeah, and so all of those things underneath the broker, I mean, these are the potential, especially the metrics and the view. How, what we storm in, that was a great argument you guys had about it. I love that. Notification for the events and the view and the metrics are potential projects in themselves, right? And we have the context for metrics just around door metrics and what that would look like, but being able to have something that does that analysis, that shows you that end to end, that could be a project in itself. And the question, and this is not a CD events question, this is a CDF question, this might even be an interoperability sync question. These are all things that come out of interoperability. This is showcasing what's interoperable. It would be great if it's under the CD events umbrella and you took care of this for everybody. But I think as a community, we should step up and kind of find ways to do this with this good work that you're doing and extend it as a part of CDF and find projects like that and companies like the ones that are in here that have the need and want to drive it forward. Thanks. I would love to start on the spec, like a GitHub conversation around this to start having a discussion on ideas, tools, because this would be a lot of fun. I'm a stats person and I'm like, great, let's go. I don't want to write Python. I want to build and analyze data, but we have to have the data. Do you want us, can we start that? Just start a conversation? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we can start a conversation. We can use the working groups we have today to discuss things. If things grow beyond what we can fit in our working group, we can spawn a new working group and we have like 20 people that they want to build a dashboard or a metrics tool, then they can start another working group. So, let's start, absolutely, and then we can scale this. Awesome, give me five minutes and I'll go start the post. No, I'm scared. I might need to. I've always seen people talking like, I see some new friends with us, like any thoughts around the project, any comments, like how do you feel based on what you are listening? Anyone wants to share their opinions? Careful, Fatih will sign you up for a work group. No, no. Yeah, hello. Yeah, I can share my opinion. The first time I see this project on this conference, I never heard about it. I'm like one of the speakers, I will be speaking tomorrow. How we do stuff in our company. But it's, I quite intrigued, honestly, because we do very similar things ourselves inside our company internally. And we essentially, when we were talking, I read through white paper and your specification and stuff. And it looks very like, thought out, like I mean, it's, you put an effort in it, which shows, and yeah, so it's, I feel right now, we build a lot of stuff ourselves. So we started using Kubernetes in 2015, a lot of stuff, which we have right now did not exist. And we had like, yeah, we're building stuff ourselves. So right now I feel like this, I want to participate essentially after hearings. And at least want to see how does it evolves. Maybe I can contribute, maybe I cannot. And I definitely want to see how it can be used by our company and how we can give back. So we're very impressed. Yay! All right, Katna. Hello. Nice to meet you all. So yeah, same as my colleague here. We are colleagues, my colleagues here. It's the first time that I hear about CD events. I saw it today while browsing the schedule. And yeah, it resonated a little bit with it. I saw some, like a similar project of standardization in the JavaScript world with some testing frameworks, like reporting through the same thing, like the same event so that you can have like the common standard set of reporting tools. And it was, that point was hard to, really adopt them in the like existing projects. So yeah, I think also here, if I got it right, also it's, I'm not sure. I mean, are there existing tools, I don't know, Tecton, Argo or many of the CDF tools that are using CD events? Yeah, so yeah, we're working with many communities. So we have support in Jenkins. So Tecton, we have an experimental controller that produces CD events and we have on the roadmap to get more out of experimental. We started, we have an RFC approved for Spinnaker. So implementation is ongoing. So that's happening. Yeah, so we spoke with other communities. I know Jenkins and Sheepright, they expressed some interest and they know, they're also both kind of related to Tecton. So as long as we, as soon as we get good support in Tecton, it makes it easier for them to build on top of that, to continue like CD event, yeah, adoption. So yeah, so we are working with several tools, communities. Yeah. That sounds good. I think it's really important like maybe for new tools that to start like to have this implemented like from the get go, I mean to popularize it. So that I mean, yeah, to just close the gap because if other tools are going to appear like, and they don't have these, then it would be the same story. It's hard to put it in when it is not like from the get go there. But yeah, I think overall, I mean standardization is always good, right? To have a standard set of events and this, at least from what I understood it's like, it will be great like it will be easy to connect tools between them because it will be a standard interface and it can be connected more easily. I mean, the ecosystem will be more open and it will not be close just like, okay, I have Spinnaker and I'm just working with Spinnaker because I cannot connect ARG or other CD tools. Yeah, so I know, keep the good work. Thank you. Thank you, yeah. I mean, there's a just quick story. So when I, I'm a maintainer of Tecton as well and it was implemented the cloud event support for Tecton. And so when I wrote the events there, I was like, okay, we use cloud events for the envelope because it's a standard. And so what do we put in the payload? And I was looking around for a standard about that and I found none. So I joined the interoperability working group and we started, we had the, oh, we have a discussion about events going on. Oh, that's great. And so that's my story and how I got to working on CD events because there was no standard and we are writing a new tool and we need a standard for that. So like to the point that you made, it's great if new tools being created, they can adopt these. And we are trying to do as much advocacy as possible to spread the word. So hopefully that happens, yeah. So since we are representing the back, back row, so I thought, okay, I can also take up the mic. So nice to meet you all. And this is the first time I'm also hearing about CD events. In my company, we are working, developing the internal developers portal. And we were trying to basically analyze all these tools which CNCF provides. We're trying to go open source as much as possible like everybody. And CNCF provides great tools in terms of deployments and things like that. CD events looks a very novel idea and standardizing the all, especially the CNCF tools first. We have Argo CD, we have Flux in this space, Jenkins. There are a few tools like CircleCI and all Shipwreck I heard. So yeah, definitely it's a great idea when we try to standardize things framework and something which can, I just want to talk about the adoption here. Something which, I'm sorry, something which really can add to adoption is the UI. Yes, it'll be like a cherry on the cake because this is something it is not available like, there are more propriety tools in this space who gives you the nice UI, UX, you talked about it. And if it is an actionable on top of that, like you have the events generated then you can take an action on that as well. Yeah, there'll be a standard set in that area as well. So just my two cents and great to be here. Great, yeah, that's a great point. And indeed, it will be great to have that kind of visualization happening in the open, in open source. So hopefully we can collaborate on building that. Yeah, I've been craving for something like that and building POCs and oh, now I have to visualize these and okay, let's print this log file with all the events and it's not that appealing. Yeah, so, yeah, great point, thanks. And thanks for joining today. Any more, anyone else who would like to bring up topic this class? Oh, yeah, Fatih, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, Gerard and then, sorry, just. I know Fatih, we talked, what do we do with Github's, Atlassians, those organizations? Cause one of the things we did, those two did, was with event-driven architectures, distributed systems, like web books, you can configure anything at some point and our friends in JFrog here, if they had an out-of-the-box plug-in that would say that when you publish event or promote event or you do something, it automatically is generating a CD event for the purposes of the artifact here. If it was in SonarCube, it would be a SonarCube event with all that data and either CDF works with those vendors or those tools to create it once. They could be even open-sourced as part of the CDF project or the CD events project to hold everybody benefits, right? We build it once for the community and everybody, then we scale it very quickly. Like, we from the foundation, obviously, like JFrog is one of our members, very strong supporters. Like, we have been talking with our members and so on. That is one thing, but at the same time, if organizations like Videdi can also talk to vendors, then we could get their attention faster. Now, it's happening now because projects are adopting and some organizations, vendors, they are watching what's happening here and I'm sure we will start seeing some movement there, but if you want that to be faster, then you could pass the same message as well. What are you doing about this? Like, do you have any plans? Is it in your roadmap and so on to get that conversation closing loop, yeah? Yeah, so thanks for the presentation. Like, just to build up on what the last question was about, for things like get-up actions, would this fall into the same space for city event usage? Because there are many actions happening there and there's a lot that can be benefited if we can get feedback from, hey, this one happened. I don't know where it would help, but like from my own organization, we are pretty get-up action-driven and I don't know if this would be proper use case for city events. Yeah, I think, sorry. We do have a get-up action. I don't know the depth of it, but there is a get-up action, kind of not SDK, but that you can import. Well, we are working on a kind of adapter to transform like get-up action events or webbooks into city events in the kind of SCM type of space or like, I don't know, commit, create the pull request, open those kind of type of events. The other thing is, I mean you could generate events within the build destruction that you have in get-up actions. If you have abstractions that are not natively included in get-up actions, so let's say you're building an artifact or doing some type of testing and you want to send test, do you want to send events about that? You could probably trigger them within the action itself. And I think one of the things that we have in the roadmap is to have a JavaScript SDK as well, as I think a lot of, it's quite popular language in that space, but I don't know if that's what comes to mind, but I don't know if there are any other comments or ideas about get-up actions. Everything you do produces an event, right? And then like in my particular system, we kind of did it based off the audit trail and the audit trail produces the event, which is a little different from what we're talking about, but either way, you produce an event and somewhere you store that event and so the more events you track, the more data you have and then the more analytics you can do against it and the more decisions you can make. So the get-ups operation could definitely be tracked. Hey, we triggered this get-ups operation 17 times a day, right? Do we need to be triggered at 17 times a day? So there's all kinds of data to be gathered there to do metrics and do analytics against. So I would say everything produces an event. At least that's how we ran it. And just to kind of round this out, at least the way I was hearing you say it, yes, get-ups should produce CD events. I mean, that is what we're trying to say, but it circles back to this thing we were saying about the vendors, get-ups of vendor. And so if companies, I mean, J-Frog has stepped up and they're joining the thing, they are, I'm gonna just give them that note, right? Because they're sitting next to me. And yeah, it's gonna be in the J-Frog products. Yeah, okay, it's gonna be in, but the companies that have the need like Fidelity, like my company Apple, there's others in here, JP Morgan Chase, that I also work with those guys. We need to say this is the standard we want, and we need to contribute to it and say this is how we want it to work. And it will follow because we make the statement. And it will show up because we make the statement and we're the folks that buy the things. And that's why I'm here because I'm seeing this community of people, we're all solving the exact same problem, okay? There's not, the difference between this problem, company to company is not great enough to dismiss this as a way to do it, right? And so as long as that happens, we can get it to the next step. As long as we communicate, talk about our needs, come to the meeting, participate in the SIGs, do the things that you have to do to get into CDF to make your voice heard, to be sure that what your company needs is included. It will get included and then this will be the standard, okay? So we have a few minutes left. Yeah. Pressing. Is there a white paper? Oh, thanks, Tracy, for bringing them. Yeah, updated May 2nd, 2023. I made sure to put that there to differentiate between versions. Any last comments, questions before we wrap up? Yeah, just a simple question. Just to help my understanding if no one else have any questions. So you like showed like architectural pattern how to implement this kind of a system. And it does look like something like because it's a wind driven system and we built multiple wind system in the past that really look really closely to secure errors type of the system come out very responsibility segregation. And is it correct or not? Can it built in such way and do you trying to do something like it? Sorry, I'm not sure I got the question is built in. I mean, like, is it resemble secure as type? Oh correct. Even driving system in the core do I understand it correctly? Or does it not? Does it like contradicts to like if you see events as a commons? Yeah, the query sites is like your UIs or some kind of analysis engines which runs on this events and different types of components can generate another type of commons which are basically not like carries a state. No, yes? Yeah, so. Sorry. No, I'm just thinking. The idea is that you can build a state or state information out of the events that you generate but not single component. They don't need to be aware of the overall state of the system if it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, okay, thank you. Yeah, yeah, okay. I think if I was understanding that correctly, you can also use CD events to trigger other systems. There's the triggering to start a thing and then, you know, that is a so you can have some sort of stateful progression if that's what you want to build it. The interesting part, at least, again, when I first looked at it, is that you have the choice for how you want to build it. It is event-driven. That's the purposeful part of it for the brokerage and storing it. But if you wanted to go system to system to system, you can actually carry it that way. That was a use case. Yeah, ours is completely asynchronous. It's safe. And we let the development teams have an SDK and they were able to build their own toys that read and catch messages and do other things until they come back to our demos and they show us stuff and I'm like, I didn't think of that. And so you build the framework for the event-driven system. You've got the data type for the event-driven system that's defined. We're all speaking the same language. And then you can go and just build out whatever you want. It could be asynchronous. It could be synchronous. You could have pieces that depend on each other. We've got this concept of these watchers and they watch the Kafka bus from messages and then we have ones that do specific things. Like I've got one that like when you build this particular unit, it goes and deploys the documents, the documentation for it, right? I got another one where when the guy pushes the documentation and it gets uploaded, the watcher grabs it and publishes it outside to the rest of the world. And that's not even like part of the build pipeline or anything. These are just random use cases that you can use once you have the event-driven framework. So, great. Now explaining that to all of my developers was fun. Yeah, yeah. So, thanks everyone.