Alright, this is what I need to do in this video. Breathe in and breathe out because this video is going to be so full. This is my 2022 roundup of skincare and this is going to be a very full video but I wanted to make sure that I got it out for you so that you can see what I've loved in 22 and using on my skin and that I feel like has made such a huge difference. Let's go friends!  We always talk about what I have on for a shirt. This is a pretty sweater that I have on. Crisscross Detail V-neck, very low. You can wear this in the front or the back. I chose to wear it in the front and I'm fiddling with it all the day long so you might want to switch it around and use it in the back or just wear you know a little tank top. I also paired it with one of my new favorites for a couple little necklaces that come together and then I paired it with a set of earrings that are rhinestone and gold. Just so pretty. I love this. Everything that I'm wearing, my necklaces, my fingernail polish, all of my rings, my makeup, everything, that'll all be listed down below in the description box and also along with the numbering system that we have. One through however many products that we get through. There will be a product next to the number that is on the screen right here along with its link and you'll be able to shop that way. It'll have all the information that you need down there. All right, let's get into talking about what I found this year that has really really impressed me for skincare. I'm going to talk to you first about supplements, so big disclaimer. Do not do any supplements without talking to your doctor. This is so important. You have to be in touch with your doctor. Maybe some of your medications might be counterintuitive with any of your supplements. So this is what I take, but please, please, please talk to your doctor before you start on any supplements and do not take my word for it. So let's just talk about what I take and yes I know there's controversy surrounding everything. So if you don't agree with this, that's okay. I'm all right with you not agreeing with it and I'm happy to listen to whatever you do take down below. Let's just all be really kind to each other and be very respectful to each other for the choices that we make. This is just what works for me and I'm just one woman on the internet. I recently from my doctor have been talked to about using a really good vitamin A, vitamin E, vitamin C supplement. Now if you think about those three vitamins, those are the three powerhouse supplements for your skin and serums when you're putting them on. Vitamin A is retin A, vitamin C is one that we all put on for darkness, for aging, for protection, or an antioxidant and then vitamin E is a very highly protective vitamin. It's a healing vitamin. It's a vitamin that we all need. So I have recently bought this one. This is vitamin code raw vitamin E and it has ADK and selenium in it and so these are very important vitamins. I think that these are the vitamins that you need to be taken. This one doesn't have C in it. I take my vitamin C in another way. That's a whole other thing I actually take like with somal vitamin C. If you're interested in that, I'll try to put it right below this one. So definitely love those. I also do take from City Beauty. Now I'm going to show you two here and I want to tell you you do not need to take both of these. I recently came across this one. This one, let me just tell you this is a 40-day supply of cell food, essential silica formula, foundational support for nails, hair, skin, teeth, bones, joint, muscles, connective tissue, gums, heart, brain function, helps accelerate the body's natural recovery time, gluten-free, dietary supplement. It's liquid. It goes into water or wherever you drink and this is really good. I have discovered this whole cell food line and I'm liking it a whole lot but I have for years and years taken the City Beauty Complete Skin Restore that promotes firm and smooth and radiance in our hair, skin, and nails. It has chlorella, resveratrol, probably saying all these wrong and I can't say that one at all. Put it up on the screen. So it really supports the healthy tissue in your body and it helps collagen turnover. So this one I've been taking for a long time and I really do love these vitamins.  I can notice a difference in how my nails grow, my hair grows, and whether or not my skin is having the bounce that it's supposed to have or having that luster, you know, all that kind of stuff. So I really love that. It's the Hada Labo Cleansing Oil for me. This takes off all of my eye makeup, any stubborn makeup and it just really melts everything and I love this stuff. I've been using it for years. Either this or I use the Good Molecules Cleansing Balm.  Inexpensive Does the Job Love Them Both. I was recently actually sent this cleanser from City Beauty. It's the Youth Rejuvenating Cleanser. This does have a lot of cleansers in it that are supposed to help with dead skin and sloughing off all of the impurities and everything like that. I use this morning and night. The only thing that I look for in a cleanser is, is it going to leave my skin feeling clean? So whatever I put on it afterwards is going to be able to sink in. So I don't want to film on there. I don't want a moisturizing cleanser. I want something that's really going to make my skin feel clean and prep it for the next step, which for me is always some sort of an essence. And when I'm talking about at night, right now I've been using the Tatcha The Essence and I just feel like this preps my skin and it really hydrates my skin and gets it ready for any serums or anything I'm going to be using next. And I have a whole video on essences. I think that they are fantastic. I've used them for years and I just feel like you can't go wrong when you're using an essence because it's a very thin product. When you're putting product on top of product on top of product for skincare, you don't want something that's so heavy that nothing else can penetrate afterwards. This is a very light product, very watery, and yet your skin feels very hydrated afterwards. And I really like that Tatcha. So while I'm letting that essence set on my skin from Tatcha, I'll go in with my very favorite Lash Serum of all time. And again, if you've been with me, this is not anything new. This is something that I've been using probably for the past seven years. X Lash Serum. No, it's not X Lax. This is an eyelash growth serum that I got sent when I was a very, very brand new influencer. I got sent the X Lash Pro Serum Growth for eyelashes. And I've been using it ever since and buying it for myself ever since. And this is a bigger tube. So even though this tube is $50, this tube is going to last you somewhere around six months, I just love it. It's chocked full of really good ingredients. It has natural ingredients and the scientific ingredients in it or the chemical ingredients in it that work. And they work in conjunction with each other and they made my eyelashes look thick and lush and longer than they possibly ever could in the past. I know that I'm going to get somebody asked, why didn't you just demo this? It's usually because of my health issues. On days like today, when I'm not feeling the greatest, it's just easier for me to show you products and then talk to you about how I do it. So what I'll do is down in the description box where I put all of it, I will just put in order how I do the morning routine and then how I do the nighttime routine so that you kind of have that as a reference. But the next step that I'm going to do is I'm going to use a bifida and a galactomyces serum or an essence. So right now, I'm working through this one. It's the secret key galactomyces essence. And this one in particular is the same exact one as SK-2. It's the galactomyces. They have 90 percent. This has 90 percent. I've had people argue with me over whether or not this is a dupe because of the way that it penetrates and blah, blah, blah. They formulated this exactly the same just so you know.  I personally just wanted to save $75 a bottle. So I use this one because I have done my research in it. But when this is gone, what I'm going to do is I'm going to go back to using the Benton fermentation essence. The reason is is because I've talked to you all so much about crannous cell bifida, which is the same as Estee Lauder Night Repair and Lancome Genifique. Same exact product, okay? But it has more bifida in it. And bifida is a fermentation process that brightens and helps with wrinkles and helps with texture and just makes our skin soft. It's one of those fermentation processes that is used in so, so many skincare items. This one is something like 60% bifida, 30% galactomyces, 10% something else.  It's serum-like, so it's a little bit heavier. But I do use this every single night, no matter what. But I'll tell you what I do in conjunction with this. I'll put it in my hand and then I'll take one of the ordinaries. This is the Niacinamide Powder. There's a little scoop inside of here with a little spoon. And I'll take one scoop of that. I'll put it in my hand with this, work it together until all of the little granules are dissolved out of the Niacinamide. And then I'll put it on my skin super brightening.  And I'm just loving what these two are doing together. And then right after that, I go in with the Skin Lifting Booster from City Beauty. And this is a firming treatment. And I'll just put this along my gel up here in the neck where I get this waddle going thing right here. And I'll put a little bit around this area right here where I feel like it's just sinking a little bit, you know, falling down. So this I feel like is really helping with the firmness of my skin. But I use a very minute amount of it. I'm very sparing with it. And I just use a couple drops and I really work it in after I've used the Bifida and just kind of work them all together. And then I go in with the New Intense Hydration Cream from Ruffer. This is so nice. I have been enjoying this so much. I did get this one sent to me too. But man, I'm repurchasing this one, no problem. This is a thicker cream that keeps my skin feeling so hydrated. And yet it doesn't feel super heavy. I love using this on my hands as a hand cream all day long. It's just a great cream. Super duper hydrating and it holds all of the serums and everything that I've done in on my skin. So I'm really liking that. Now, you're probably all wondering, well, what do you use, Melissa, as a Retin-A product? Okay. Here's where it gets a little bit different. On nights when I'm not using my super heavy-duty Retinol product, I use two products from the Ordinary. And one is a Vitamin C product. And the other one is a Retinol Retinoid product. And they're both oils. A Scorable Tetrisapomate Solution 20% in Vitamin F. That is a Vitamin C product. And then this is the Grinactive Retinoid 5% in Squalane. So I use four or five drops of each of these, mix them together, and then I'll pat them all over my face, all over everything that I've done. So that is what goes on last. And then very, very last. Yes, I know this is a lot. I hear you. I can hear you. I can hear you. You don't need all of this. This is what I do for a living. This is what I do to try things out. This is what has worked out really good for me. You don't need all of this. Pick one. Pick two. Pick what your skin concern is. And then go ahead and use that. So the last thing is my Sukoyaku Suhara Cream. This is a cream that is thick and heavy and feels like Vaseline, just on the tiny bit lighter side of Vaseline. I will take this and I will slather around my eyes.  And then I'll just kind of feather it out into all this area and I'll put it over across my lip and I'll put it on my neck. It is sticky and it is not for everybody. But for me and my dry skin, I'll wake up in the morning and it will feel, my skin will feel tacky and hydrated. And there is nothing better to me than to feel that in the morning. So this is, this is probably my 50th jar of that. And this is that I'm not joking when I say that because I buy this every other month. I buy this product every other month. That's how much I love it. Because if I've got a patch of dry skin, if my hands are dry, if my face is dry, anything, this is going to fix it. I love that stuff so much. Okay, morning time. What do I do? Oh, wait a minute. Let's talk about my heavy duty right now. First of all, this is very, very expensive and I, I get really feeling guilty when I talk about this product because it's a product that I know is expensive and I know that a lot of you would struggle to buy it. So let me tell you how I bought it because I struggled to buy it too. It's not cheap. So this is the Truth Treatments Regenerating 5% Retinol Gel. And you can see right here, very thick product again. This is like a jelly product, like a petroleum jelly product. That's what it, that's how it feels when it comes out. But what you can also see is, do you see how much is gone in there? I'm like, I probably got a quarter of the bottle left. I've had this for over a year. So this bottle, even though it costs me a lot of money, I've had it for over a year and it's last me. Now, how I bought it is, I bought it on sale for one thing. I got it at a 30% off discount. And then the other thing is I got to buy it on, I think it was after pay or a firm where I paid for it for over a two month period. You know, every two weeks you pay a quarter of it. So that's how I actually got to buy this.  I was on it for six years. But I had to go off of it because, number one, my eyes were so irritated. And even though I wasn't putting it anywhere near my eyes, it would still travel and it would end up just really hurting my eyes. And it also hurt around my lips and it would settle into this area and it would settle around my nose. I was being very careful. I was being very, you know, sparing with it. I was mixing it in with moisturizers. I was only using it a few days, you know, a week, sometimes few days a month if I was irritated. And I still was not tolerating it. But when I went to this, oh my goodness. So now I'm using this twice a week and I never, ever have any irritation with it. And it's such a nice product. And personally, just my own personal opinion, I have seen better results with this in a year than I did in the five years I was using Retinol. That's just my own personal opinion. You guys ask me all the time what I'm doing different and I hesitate so much to talk about these kind of products because I do feel guilty that it costs so much. I want to be able to say, oh, you can get this kind of skin if you're using a $20 product. I haven't, I haven't been able to get this kind of skin from another product. So this is what I say for me works. It might not be for you. You might not be able to afford it. These kinds of products from the ordinary, I do feel like make a change. You just have to wait longer to see the kind of change that you would with something that is a little bit more stronger. This is the most powerful percentage that you can, they put on the market right now that you can get without prescription, I should say. It's just one of those ones that I feel like has made this gargantuan change. That's my nighttime stuff. Yes, I know that's a lot and I, okay, breathe. Like I said at the beginning, breathe. Okay, we're good. Let's go to the morning. In the morning, I'm going to get back out my cleanser, whatever that cleanser is, and I'm going to use it. You can use a scrub if you want to here or, you know, if you choose not to use a scrub. But I also trade off and use some sort of a chemical peel at times too. This is the one that I got a while back from LMS and it's the Dynamic Resurfacing Facial Pads and there's 60 of them in here. I don't use this every morning, so this has last me a long time. I'm about halfway through and I use this maybe three, four times a week. I use this immediately after I cleanse and I don't use this on days when I'm using a physical exfoliant.  So I'm going to be very careful when I use this. I'm going to use it on days when my skin feels healthy and I feel like I can really tolerate it because as I get older, my skin's getting more sensitive. Okay, so now what do I go in with next? Guess what? Out comes the tacha again and I use that again to start my skincare and to make my skin feel really fresh and alive and lovely. Let it set for a couple of minutes and then I go in with the Good Molecules Niacinamide Brightening Toner that has licorice root. What else does it have in it besides licorice root? It has Arbutin Niacinamide and licorice root and yeah, I've been using this one since it came out five or six years ago as well. When I started to use this, I visibly noticed my pores diminishing within weeks and I thought I was nuts and then my friend Mary from Glitzy Fritzy said the same thing and I was like, I'm not crazy. This really does work like that. So yeah, this is a definite must for me every single morning. It's one of those ones that I love so much and if you're wondering how long I wait between doing a chemical part and starting my skincare, I would say it's usually 10 minutes if I can spare that much time. Once I do the Niacinamide Brightening Toner, then I'm going to go in with my Vitamin C for the day. I've used the Timeless Vitamin C for gosh, a really long time. Love this stuff. I think it's great and then I'm going to go in with my new favorite. One of my new favorites that you started me on, one of you guys did, is this. It's also from Benton. It's the Snail B High Content Skin. So this has Snail Musin in it, which is the Snail Secretion Filtrate. It has Camilla Leaf Water in it and it has B Venom in it and so it's got these botanicals in it that work so good. I've been loving this just simply because I've been noticing that my skin just feels a little bit firmer and I'm just noticing a lot more hydration throughout the day. So this is a new addition to me, probably within the last six weeks to two months. So I can't really tell you the long-term benefits of this yet, but so far so good. It's been really great. And then the last step that I follow up with is my Sukuyaka Suhara. This is my Urea Moisture Lotion.  This has Bifida and Glectomyces in it. Sorry about the phone. And then I'll go in with these. So I'll go in with the Sukuyaka Suhara Urea Lotion. This is not a lotion. It's an essence. You can see how watery it is. This has been going in and out of stock on Amazon for I can't tell you how long. And I know you've all been frustrated, but I did find another place that does sell it. It's a little bit more expensive, but if you're interested, you can get it Uber Uber Uber Hydration in a Urea product. And then I go in with the Urea Eye Cream from Sukuyaka Suhara. Now I'm going to have somebody go, Urea is a byproduct of urine. I'm going to have somebody say that and somebody go, no thank you. I'm not going to put that on my face. And okay, if I was putting urine on my face, I'd be grossed out too. This is manufactured in a lab to mimic the properties that the real Urea has. So no, this does not have any urine in it whatsoever. So please put your mind at ease. All right, last step. This is the only sunscreen that I've been using for years. And I finally decided that I'm going to quit messing around and quit looking for other sunscreens because none of them work like this. This is the Dermatology Universal Tinted Moisture SPF 46. This has mineral and chemical sunscreen in it, but it is a super moisturizer. And I love putting it on after all these because it feels super duper hydrating. I know I'm getting protected, but Dermatology, if you are listening to me, can you please find a cap that will stay on this sucker?  And I'm never going to have that cap again. And if I have to travel, this is going to be everywhere. So Dermatology, I love you to pieces, but guys, figure out the cap system. Please. I just, you know, I don't think it's too much ask, but maybe it is. So anyway, that is my morning and my evening routine or my evening and my morning routine. I hope that you guys did enjoy seeing this. Thank you so much for watching. Please tell me what you're using that you feel like has made a huge difference in your skincare. I always want to know that. I watch a ton of videos just like you do because I'm always looking for what is best and I want to know. Now I'm going to disclaimer at the very end because I get somebody almost always talking to me on my video.  I'm not going to lie to you.  I have Botox. I have Botox here. I have Botox here and I have Botox that's across my forehead. I decided to do Botox about a year ago and I get people that are really disgusted with that when they hear that I do that because they feel like it negates that I use all of this skincare and that I could just do Botox and my skin would look great anyway. That is so not true. That does not address redness. It does not address dark spots. It does not address dullness or texture or big pores or any of that stuff. You have to continue on with some sort of a skincare regimen in order for your skin to look decent with Botox because if I didn't you would notice that. You would not think that my skin was anything nice. Now sure I don't have wrinkles right here anymore but I would have this whole rest of my face that looked weird if I didn't take care of it with my skincare. Now I have been completely and totally transparent with you guys for a very long time that I've gotten Botox. This is not something that is new that I'm just announcing right now. You can go back and look at some of my other skincare videos. I really announced this when I got it and I it's a personal choice and I feel like you know what if there's any woman out there that wants to do whatever they do you do you and I want to support women. I want to see women supporting women and being kind to women. I love supporting you as my girlfriends and that's all I want to do is make you happy and help give you some great information along the way. Thank you so much for being a part of my channel and sticking with me today. We're winding 2022 down and 2023 is right around the corner and I hope it's going to be a great one for all of us. I love you guys so very much. Take care of yourselves. See you in my next video. Bye-bye friends!


Thanks for coming everybody and thanks to WordCamp for having me here. So as you probably saw from the thing, and I guess a lot of you are interested in this topic, call this talk the back end is dead. And I just want to briefly ask you guys a question. How many of you guys are developers? Or how many of everyone is developer? I'm trying to reduce my gendered language here. Okay, how many of you consider yourselves to be front end developers? You're probably like, yeah, when you saw this title topic, right? How many of you consider yourselves to be back end developers? And then you're like, I want to see what she has to say about this, right? So how many of you consider yourselves to be full stack developers? Sweet, sweet. All right, so I'm going to start off with a little bit of story time. My title is full stack developer, but I primarily do what we would consider back end work. And there's something about me, I guess maybe because I primarily do back end work that sort of seeks to do refactors all the time, right? So at O3 World we do work for clients and it's not always appropriate or cost effective or time effective to propose a refactor for any sort of website. So I was looking around for an opportunity to refactor something because that is sort of how my mind works and I was like, let me refactor how I think a little bit. And so I wanted to, I looked around and especially in the projects that I was working more closely on and it seemed like the traditional lines and how we would divide up how it would work were a little bit blurrier than sort of just front end development and back end development. And how can I sort of best figure out how to delegate tasks when it comes to responsibilities for a project and how can I help leverage the strengths of everyone on my team? So I thought, why on earth are we using these distinctions to, continuing to use these distinctions to define ourselves? So that's why I call this talk. So when companies are hiring and agencies are hiring and they post job listings for developers, they're not hiring, if they're not hiring for a specific language say PHP or Ruby or a specific platform like Rails or Groovy or Grails, they're hiring for, they usually falls into three categories. I usually have front end developers, back end developers and full stack developers. So using these categories can be a great way to find talent but I feel like it can be potentially limiting. So this is pretty much on, I'm going to preface this by saying I didn't do a ton of research into this. This was a thought experiment that I used to play out how I relate to the other developers on my team but it seems to be working so far. So what I'm putting forward is a new way to think about the stack when you're hiring developer talent. So I hope that this will enable you to truly hire for your needs and assess your business needs to leverage the wide range of talents on your existing development teams and then to give developers more opportunities to develop professionally by introducing them to previously unfamiliar workflows or concepts. Does that sound good? So let's talk about the new stack. So let's replace front end, back end and full stack with the data layer, the business logic layer, the presentation layer and the operations layer. So if you use these four layers to define your stack it might be more difficult to hire someone who is quote unquote a full stack developer but if you hire for several people who can cover each element of this stack you'll have more of your workflow covered than if you hired off a traditional stack paradigm. So if you're lucky enough to find someone who actually does cover all four parts of the stack then you got yourself a unicorn running in the clouds with rainbows coming out of its butt I guess. I just thought that was a really cool gift. So let's talk about the stack a little bit. So the data layer. So that's mostly self-explanatory but I will dive a little bit into this. So you can think of it as someone who is managing data or someone who is actually making an API or microservice that is connected directly to a data layer. A data layer developer would be able to build or organize data for an application or analyze and optimize relationships for the data. Ideally, maybe if you were going to try to shoot the moon you'd want them to be able to write an ORM or a microservice to connect to the data or actually just sort of own the data stack when it comes to a project. Does that make sense? Yeah? All right. So then there's the business logic layer. The business logic layer, I should put business in parentheses because not everyone, I personally don't like the phrase business logic but it's kind of the algorithmic layer. I think you're kind of getting my drift here. This is the meat and potatoes, so to speak. So it's how a site works. So I think traditionally people would think about this as back-end work, right? Something if there's some really complicated number crunching or data transformation or something of that nature or even if it's a more complicated version of CRUD, you would say some of that stuff would sit on the server side and you would think of server side, client side would be your clear delineation between a front-end and back-end. But I think that as things are shifting and as APIs are becoming more available, more of the logic is actually sitting on the client side. So if someone who's been traditionally what we're calling a back-end developer is developing applications that where they're mostly using client side logic or a framework like Angular or React, then are they still a back-end developer? Does that distinction even make sense anymore? So in a WordPress shop, this could be someone who creates new plugins. This could be someone who manages a series of plugins who creates custom plugins. It really varies. It could be someone who does really heavy JavaScript logic. It could really vary. So this is the part where you think, okay, actually someone who is traditionally a front-end developer is actually working on a pretty good bit of business logic for an application more so than a traditional back-end developer would. The distinction between server side and client side seems to be, you know, those walls are crumbling, seem to be crumbling a little bit more. So then there's the presentation layer. I always found that at least in the past the presentation layer, you know, people wouldn't think about the presentation layer specifically. It was all lumped into front-end.  And that's not necessarily clear either. The presentation layer is often, especially now, a lot more complicated than it used to be. So, you know, the presentation layer, it's the stuff you see. But it's a bit more, it's not just the stuff you see, but it's how the stuff you see works, how you interact with the stuff you see, or not even see if you're not visually inclined, if you are, it's the stuff that you're interacting with, those things that are actually sort of bringing the application to life for a user. So you're maybe responsible for converting all those amazing web assets from the designer. In an agile designer development shop, shout out to the three world right here in Philadelphia, you know, a presentation layer developer may previously been a designer, or they may not have, but they speak the language of a designer and they can, and they can, you know, interact with the designer very quickly, iterate on things, especially when it comes to developing a web application. So, you know, bonus points to the person who's a specialist in accessibility and keeps non-computer web connected devices in mind during the development process. So, and then there's a layer that's near and dear to my heart, the operations layer. So, that's a lot of text, isn't it? So it's not traditionally thought of as a part of the stack, but it's an important one. I think people will hire support positions and hire, like a DevOps positions very much separately from who they hire, you know, from when they're hiring someone who is going to be doing the rest of the development cycle. And I think you can, you're actually, you might be missing out on a little bit of an opportunity to cross train someone for that. You could, so, you know, if you have someone doing DevOps that's involved in the development process from its inception, you can avoid a couple pitfalls and headaches related to deployment. And chiefly the works for me syndrome, well, my local, you know, my local vagrant box WordPress install, this works perfectly and it's like, actually, your client is using a different version of PHP and so that's why everything is all jacked up when you try to deploy it, right? You know, the works for me syndrome, you avoid that stuff because the operations layer developer will actually think of that sort of thing ahead of time and actually understand what are the, what are your client's needs? What are your end users' needs? What are they, and sort of keep that into my development cycle and help steer the rest of the development of the application based on some of those things. So they're responsible for keeping an eye on site bills, test coverage, updates in patches of software and plugins, server hardening, security audits, deployment, workflow disaster recovery. So, you know, that would be the person who understands the WP Engine ecosystem or Pantheon, better than everyone else, and it can help optimize your project for the use of that in your environments. And some of those responsibilities are traditionally like a, you know, systems admin, but as platform as a service becomes more influential and grows in scope, someone, having someone on hand who sort of understands what all that is about can be incredibly useful. And that, you know, just because it's difficult to find someone who actually understands what it's like the day-to-day to be a developer and understands the operation side might be difficult, it doesn't mean that, you know, a position like that should go unfilled. Shout out to me. So, you know, some of you may be thinking, okay, well, where do I fit in in this paradigm?  And that's totally fair. Like, you know, I also probably fit into more than one of these categories. The lines are, even though I attempted in this thought experiment to make the lines more clear, that doesn't make them perfectly clear. You know, but I do think that it makes more sense to call myself a business logic operations developer than it does a full stack developer. Sorry, I'm just going through my notes here. So, you know, if you're into this paradigm at all, like, who do you hire, right?  But, sorry, I love Gibson. I love Beyonce, so I had to do that. But you may not find, you may or may not like the specific reconfiguration of the stack, but I hope going forward that you'll do your best not to let titles and categories or even the languages that someone knows limit you and limit you, limit who you hire. So, you know, you could be missing out on finding a great fit in your organization if you're paying attention to what previous titles they held or what specific, what stacks, whether or not they are actually full stack or not. So, you know, I could have easily called this talk, the front end is dead. I could have called it, you know, how I learned to stop worrying and love hiring developers. I could have called it anything. But you catch my drift. I want to empower people to give a deeper read to a resume and cover letter when they're hiring people. Listen differently in interviews and take risks on people who may not be precisely who you had in mind because I think you will end up having a better team for it. So, this actually is. I left a lot of time for questions. So, you know, you can ski-dattle or if you have any questions, feel free to ask. No questions is a good thing, I hope. Does any of this make sense to you? Yes, you have a question. When you talked about the operations layer, I kind of thought you meant just like the day-to-day way that end users actually end up using it. Okay. Can you kind of speak to sort of where that fits in the stack of like, well, you know, Elaine in HR actually uses this application to XYZ? Right, I think to me that would be a little bit more of the presentation layer because I think someone with like a developer with a strong UX and UI sort of bent would fit a little bit better in the presentation layer than the operations layer, but I see, I understand what you mean. I think that with the operations layer, I'm thinking more of DevOps, but, you know, that certainly, you know, again, you know, this is more of a thought experiment and in doing, and in thinking of developer, thinking of my team that way, you know, if we had projects where we had a lot of items left to work on, it was easy for me to say, oh, I know that this person, okay, maybe they've only worked in this language or done these sorts of things, but I know that they have a mindset and a way of thinking that they could easily solve this problem regardless of whether or not it was the issue, the bug, or the new feature was on the client side or the server side. Yes. Hi. So I wanted to know if you could comment for a moment on how you could apply this paradigm to actual interview situations and how you can suss out these different things to match up what you need on your team with the probably miscellaneous skill set that the applicant has. Right. I would probably, excuse me, I would probably, you know, in asking them about specific projects that they've worked on, I would want them to go a little bit more in depth in terms of what their responsibilities were on the project, so if they were like, well, I handled all the client side, blah, blah, blah, for this site.  Sweet. And like, okay, then like, maybe you, maybe you should be working a little bit on the presentation layer and a little bit on the business logic layer, so, yes. Thank you very much for the energetic session and one thing I think that you have missed and I was also missing that was the Steve Harvey. There was no chief for that. Oh, no Steve Harvey give. Oh, goodness, yeah. I could have probably used some like family feud stuff but that's not the question. The question is all about, while we are mapping this paradigm onto our development, we come across sometimes with the trainings and the massive trainings, just like I hire a developer, say, for the front end, maybe you are UX and after a certain time, technologies change altogether and before that, those are working maybe on the HTML and CSS and gradually I have to move them towards some JavaScript frameworks and stuff like that. So, where we can accommodate the training and retraining and retraining stuff in the whole of this paradigm. Where can we accommodate the training in the paradigm? I think that that would be, you know, sort of a title shift, right? I mean, I think a lot of, like in the earlier part of the web, you know, JavaScript was used as it was, you know, expedient to delivering HTML and CSS, right? And now it's way more complicated. You have front end frameworks and things of that nature. But I think just, you know, using this classification allows someone to grow. I only thought of, you know, someone who could say, I only thought of myself as a front end developer. But now that I've learned Angular and actually learned how to you make, you know, or React or, you know, Ionic, I actually learn how to build the bits of an app that actually work or bits of a website that works as opposed to, you know, like some of the things that I, some of the static assets, some of the static things that I see, I can actually do a bit of interaction. So it would be a professional, you think of it as a professional development thing. So if they retrain, they would shift maybe from a front end developer from a presentation layer developer into a, say, a business logic developer or be a hybrid of the two. Yes. Most likely to be operations logic or across the board. Across the board. Like this is, oh, so, so I was asked where testing sort of fit in. And I would say that it fit in across the board. So, you know, I think testing is a responsibility of every developer on the team. You know, it's not just, you know, for the operations developer that may be testing the workflows, testing the development workflows or deployment workflows a little bit. That may be, you know, making sure that if they're using get or any other sort of version control system, making that that, making sure that that makes sense to how the rest of the team is working for, you know, someone who's mostly doing the presentation layer.  You know, there's karma. There's, you know, phantom if you want to automate some of this stuff, you know, for, you know, there are any other sort of unit testing for a business logic developer depending on, whether or not you're working on the client side or the server side of the business logic, you know, I would say it fits in everywhere. You know, there's, there are always, there's always a shortage of tests. So, yes. Yes. As a developer, how do you recommend that we focus on growing? If you're weak in part of the stack, do you recommend that we concentrate our efforts there or to deepen our strengths? I mean, I think that really, I think that really depends on, you know, whether or not you want to grow in that. I think sometimes that, I think this paradigm sort of gives you the ability to, like, focus in on what your strength is, but it also gives you the opportunity to grow a little bit, right? So, if you're a front-end developer in this, in original paradigm and just say, you know, you're, you're not as strong in the HTML and CSS, but you're very strong in JavaScript, then, you know, you could either, you know, build up your skills in HTML and CSS or, you know, try to work on more server-side JavaScript if that is something that you're, that you're doing as well.  Yeah, thanks. I guess you guys are going to get out early then. Thank you so much for your time.


What's up everyone it's your girl Kenzie here from Layton Sports Cards and I'm ripping brand new release today We got 2022 Don Russ elite football hobby six box half case break number five random teams Here is the look at the random results again You can always find these at Layton Sports Cards comm underneath the results tab link. It's also in chat for you Well, Anthony's actually really big on Pokemon fan. He's got like a half sleeve Well, I guess it's not really sleep like half leg tattooed of just all Pokemon. He's really big into a Pokemon recently started like ripping cards, so That's that's cool. All right, here we go and starting off nice here for the jets We got purple ink Garrett Wilson for the jets. There you go Jets this time around is Joel are nice one there again on the purple ink That is shorter printed than the black and blue ink will mag that one for you Playmaker is Parsons And everyone's six total spots left in the next break that is the last break with spots remaining for tonight D Swift to 99 Down to five now five to go Black basketball, I don't believe we did JJ. I know we didn't last year I can ask but I don't think we did elite deck Joe Burrow We usually don't get like online exclusive products I say a spiller rookie elitist gave Davis. I don't think I've ever ripped that either You've got turn of the century out of 99 Jaquan brisker for the bears gave Davis to 25 cool firework a Insert there. He had a nice game last night. Didn't me well for fantasy Good day. I bet it's a cool product JJ for sure I don't know why they make that just a online exclusive. Hi life of cup of cup Get everyone plenty of room for personal tonight. We got DK to 399 only three and Q currently Again, Brad is also over on late gaming doing release day personal So check him out Aiden Hutchinson rookie on deck magic the gathering release day dual release over there And then you'll have magic Matt here tomorrow night with some group breaks for you Matt crowd in 99 Panthers Rest of the crew is in New York going to the Jeter event tomorrow. I know they're all excited craftsman of Antonio Gibson for the commanders Aaron Donald playmakers Be sure to congratulate Sean over here who is employee of the month Brown out of 399 for the Raiders. You got a really cool Slab who wasn't again Ted Williams like autographed postcard slab Andrews the deck so yeah, Sean is our employee of the month new thing that Lane started, which is really cool Justin Ross out of 999 she's that's cool. That's like I Yeah, Duke Snyder was one of my dad's favorite out of 349 Justin Herbert Yeah, it's a new thing Lane started where You'll get like a little PC car. Nothing like crazy huge but still really cool a Patrick Mahomes elitist There'll be one on the gaming side and one on the sports side My son, oh did he Calvin Austin third to 999 Steelers Yeah, I'm a huge, you know, Mac Jones autograph PC, you know Yeah, I'm just kidding. They already know Chris Olava a rookie elitist Joe Mixon Aaron Jones And I'll be that a pitch clock Huh, that's we're aiming the ships too. I don't know what that means out of 399 Garrett Wilson What's that mean? You know, I like this sometimes you see him the second On the right side of the field with the second baseman in this and nobody's on the left side Because the guy always hits the right Garrett Wilson rookie on deck Help some position it better to get the ball and get him out You know, he doesn't you know, he always hits the analytics. Yeah, Davis price of 32 for the Niners No, we throw them away, man Yeah, sometimes we keep them and we use them for like fillers and stuff, but like look, this is from one box We're gonna have plenty of fillers after ripping a leaf. I got it It's about time because I feel like we haven't had a ton of fillers in a long time. Yeah, I like DJ more Malik Willis to 999 they go Titans. I might be the first base of him that we've seen tonight. Thanks Jason. Appreciate that, bro Appreciate it rookie of the year Drake London Falcons Biller, we've got a latte tailored a 25 for the Saints on the fireworks Insert there. Yeah, that's cool. You see us playing Justin Herbert's playmakers Pierce to 999. Yeah, it's a good idea I see the chili peppers Thursday What do we have here pen pals?  We'll mag that one for sure elite deck Tyreek McCreary out of 399 Titans Filler we've got Lawrence Taylor on the elitist for the Giants full throttle to 349 Jamar Chase Oh One spot left One spot left in the next break y'all rookie elitist Garrett Wilson. That is the last group rate spot available for tonight Thank you again so much again. We had like almost All the spots to fill on these random teams when we went live Jermaine Johnson the second southern 999 jets. So thank you all so much for getting all this filled up Do appreciate it Jalen waddle mile high or high life High life on that oh Bailey zappy turn of the century to 49 Otto there you go Patriots Nice one there Drake London the 399 Falcons Again Magic Matt will be here tomorrow night with more group rates for you starting at five Rookie on deck Derek Stingley Jr. Thanks for subscribing Amistar He's starting off tomorrow night with some select WWE random pack style haven't done those in a while I know there's been a few people asking for those in Grum rookie to 75 Cardinals It's so weird that you asked that JJ because our we went out to dinner with our friends last night Playmakers Mac Jones and one of the guys was talking about Australian football They play in like a giant circle, but like they kick the ball they throw the ball They have to dribble the ball after a couple thing like it's really weird like it literally it's literally like all the sports combines It's it's it's really weird out of 399 Michael Pittman, Jr. It's like and then it looks like rugby as well It's so crazy that you asked that Micah Parsons elite coverage Cowboys Elite deck Patrick Mahomes. It's back here. Is there a card of 99 Raiders? All right box three here No, I Ricky on deck James and Williams. I really haven't eaten too much today, but I haven't been hungry I Have been hungry today You've got Trevor Lawrence on the moxie patch. There you go. Jack's on the second year Jack Prescott playmakers Out of 24 we got bronze die-cut status of Miles Sanders for the Eagles had Boston market Which I haven't had in a really long time Ricky on deck Sam how I Wasn't hungry, but I was like Yeah, there there are three different case hits God God-sized We haven't seen one yet. Joe mix on a 399. We've got rookie die-cut aspirations of grease haul 50 of 72 Jets, I like that prediction roller But according to cardboard connections there, it's a list star watch and whiz kids We have not seen any of those yet. We're on our what third case Christian Watson in 999. So I'm not sure if that's just inaccurate or we just have been I Mean, I wouldn't even say unlucky. We pulled some really nice cards. Just no case hits yet. Kyler Murray elite deck JJ Berg what time's that game long? We've got red aspirations to 74 miles Sanders Spellbound five of ten Trevor Lawrence. There you go Jags Nice low-number T law second year Matthias s nice DJ what check it out Here More people order personals. Yeah, we've got ebner to 999 bears We only got three in queue currently it might be an early night Berry Sanders on the elitist for the Lions sold out. Awesome sold out y'all. Thank y'all so much All sold out for group breaks for the night got filler young to 399 for the Seahawks CD lamb high life Cooper cup on the Super Bowl MVP. That is 97 of 339 We've got back to the future second-year auto to 149 Davis Mills You go Texans. Can't wait to see him. Yeah, Jason. Hey, uh, yes Well, I think you will out of 49 Kyle Hamilton with I mean what he's got, you know playing for the Texans, so Got Malik Willis rookie elitists. We've got Taekwondo Thornton on the pen pals for the Patriots Thornton pen pal rookie Otto you know Robinson jr. To 999 commanders their elite deck Justin Jefferson Water here Man, this thing keeps the water cold. Oh my goodness got Trevor Lawrence boxy patch. There you go Jags second one of these Johnson Taylor playmakers D. H to 399 for the Chiefs filler Chris Alavid and 999 Saints Justin Jefferson, yeah Yeah, it's gonna be surprising this year Michael Warren the second to 399 Eagles, what do y'all think the biggest upset this week? That's gonna be anything The upset this week throttle 349 Joe borough Yeah Right JJ, but she go to three to 999 she's sorry see Higgins high life Arizona Niners I could see that color marita 75 carnals You think that was the biggest one? I had I had bills winning not by that much of course, but 42 of 99 spellbound Trevor Lawrence man. That's a nice tealaw half case for the Jags future Vikings to one 149 Justin Jefferson, man We can pull in Jefferson after Jefferson lately you go Vikings cool in there Out of 399 Zeke Rookie elitist Chris Alavid Joe mixon Aaron Jones Filler rookie on deck Garrett Wilson. Yeah Patrick. They're supposed to be a case that we haven't seen either The A-list Starwatch and Wiz kids are the three that cardboard connections that are key states We have not seen any Russell Wilson playmakers got rookie elitist of Malik Willis I was saying earlier Josh Allen can't keep run like that. He's gonna get hurt Sam how rookie on deck? I think each one make a little Kill the Eagles Chris Alavid at 24 for the Saints on the die-cut aspirations. There you go Saints Daniel are nice hit there We've got Carson strong on the rookie of pen pals auto Eagles Carson strong We've got Justin Jefferson out of 18 on the jersey number Vikings And it's a JJ kind of night tonight packs left here Jordan Davis to 999 Eagles Last pack filler elite deck Jonathan Taylor base box five here plenty room for personals everyone just three in queue currently Russell Wilson playmakers three in queue sup high tower We've got Alec Pierce working to 399 Colts If you order a personal you're more than welcome to rip some basketball We don't have any on schedule for group breaks though at a 75 spellbound Joey B Just a football all elite until the last break of the night and then we've got the fanatic diamond memorabilia box filler Kevin Harris out of 999 Patriots, so we do have basketball Personal boxes available No worries Patrick. Thanks for looking that up for us late-deck Joey B Hopefully we can see one. I mean it's been Almost four cases now full throttle to 349 Gabe Davis Wonder if they're just like SSPs rather than case hits back to the future Broncos to 49 Jerry Judy Go Denver. I think he's gonna have a big year with us there for sure To 399 Tyree kill Dolphins Patrick Mahomes on the elitist Hebo deck filler Ricky on deck Malik Willis Titans Got Ricky elitist Chris Alave Saints Robinson Devon White Jamison Williamson 999 Lions Ricky elitist Isaiah Spiller Cook we are all sold out for tonight more group breaks starting tomorrow at 5 p.m. With magic Matt He'll be on this side out of 399 trailing Berks for the Titans So be sure to check that out and start tomorrow night off with some select wwe a random pack style Britain Brown out of 75 Ricky Raiders. Oh No, not bangles It's a fall color.  We've got lions again. Ricky Penpal's auto Jamison Williams. Let's go around the hand lion staying hot Garrett Wilson rookie on deck Man, I have to go get black and gold now just because he said that Out of 999 Wendell Robinson Giants Nope, I don't believe so Aiden Hutchinson rookie on deck Well, we did pull the variation pen pals of Aiden Hutchinson, that's only an eight card Checklist JK Dobbins moxie rookie earth. Sorry moxie patch Ravens like a Parsons playmakers Zack Wilson the 25 for the Jets. There you go. Nice one there like a Parsons Box, yeah, I like that insert filler Jack Prescott playmakers I'll have to look at what they look like then fear. I'm really curious drum for the 999 Browns Yeah, if you can you drop us a link fear One of one of those so it's easier for us to find real quick elite deck Kyler if you don't mind If not, I'll look out for this break Turn of this century rookie auto to the 199 Danny Gray for the Niners Danny Gray to 399 Aaron Donald. I like it rookie elitist of Drake London I mean, it's the one of the first looks of the rookies and the pro unis each year, you know So it's always fun. I like the look of the pen pals to care a laugh It's on the orange to 49 chiefs. I think it pops. Yeah, even the base cards are nice For sure Ricky elitist of Malik Willis TJ Watt Davis Mills Kenneth Walker the third to 999 Seahawks We've got nice pen pals rookie Otto Trayvon Walker for the Jags Are you go Jacksonville having a very nice break Matthias s been pulling a lot of nice Trevor Lawrence and now a Trayvon Walker We'll make that one for you Sam Howell on the rookie on deck cam acres It's like a square foil off to look it up after this the Sean Watson the 399 Yeah, and the pen pals are on card too, you know, you don't see that too often Playmakers JT. I feel like as products go move along. You see more and more Sticker or redemptions. You have to wait John Elway to 349 on the field vision Broncos, so I like it and at the price point to you know, fairly cheaper products Leave deck Jefferson. I don't mind a 999 101 Lamar Jackson pulled a one-to-one Thibodeau auto earlier Barry Sanders alliance Harris Our Kway Walker to 93 for the Packers See lamb high life Jerome 4 to 399 Browns Got Moxie patch Kyler Murray for the Cardinals. I believe the second one of those as well James Williams rookie on deck Last pack here. We will do a recap Daxon Hill out of 25 for the Bengals rookie and get all these cards. All right recap time We had Kyler Murray Cardinals JK Dobbins Ravens To Trevor Lawrence Moxie's both going into Jack's elite coverage Micah Parsons Cowboys Antonio Gibson commanders our autos turn of the century to 199 Danny Gray Niners Jimmison Williams lions Jerry Judah to 49 Barancos Carson strong Eagles back to the future to 149 Justin Jefferson Vikings Typhon Thornton Patriots Davis Mills to 149 on back to the future Texans Bailey Zappi turn of the century to 49 Patriots turn of the century to 99 to Juan Briscoe Bears Our Magd cards. We had the Trayvon Walker for the Jags on the pen pals The variation pen pals Aiden Hutchinson very nice sit there for the Lions congrats again on that John and the purple ink Garrett Wilson pen pals Alrighty everyone that will do it for the break. We've got another half case coming right up


Welcome once again to the breakfast here on Plasti via Africa. A couple of months ago, there was of course breaking news that there was a coup in Mali and that of course was followed by yet another coup that took place, of course, led by Conor Lassimi Goitre. Since then, the economic community of West African states, led by of course its leaders and former presidents and the likes across Africa, had stepped in to try and negotiate for a peaceful resolution of the situation in Mali and also asking for a time frame before they can go back to democratic rule. But that hasn't gone very well in the last 24 to 48 hours, there have been more sanctions placed on Mali. We're speaking this morning with Dr. Katch Ononuju, who is a director general at the Heritage Center. Good morning and thanks for joining us, Dr. Ononuju. Thank you very much for having me. Good to see you again. Let's begin by clarifying or going to understand exactly what the situation is in Mali. Where is there some confusion between Ekoas and Conor Lassimi Goitre and of course Romanian of the co-leaders? Well, I will want to say that Ekoas seems to be waking up very late. This crisis started a long before now and then in 2015 there was a peace agreement. I remember I was in Bamako myself and I advised my leaders, including when I came back here speaking to our president and my former boss, President Goodluck, who later was appointed as our misery, and I opinion that the best way to have this issue resolved was to make sure that the other West African leaders are carried along for an implementation of the 2015 peace agreement. It was when some of the leaders, including our president, President Buhari, did not actually do those things and they thought they could do it on their own that you stole the bottlenecks that we've seen. So it is as a consequence of non-implementation of that 2015 peace agreement that you've seen the various coups have come. Primarily, the crisis you see in Nigeria is an overflow of the problem you see in Mali. Why do I say that? In Central Mali, there was a war between the dog bombs and the philandis. And why we say it resolved the Mali crisis because it's like a dam. If you don't resolve that crisis, when the dam burst, it will affect the entire sub-region. And that was why you saw refugees floated into Nigeria. There in Nigeria, we have IDP camps where indigenous people are staying in IDP camps, but the asexual lands are being occupied by refugees from Mali. And because we weren't able to treat this in the way it should be, that's why it has come to affect us today. Now President Buhari is about to leave office. And of course, as you know about land, wherever these refugees occupy land, indigenous people of course go back to their land when the time gets clear. And that seems to be when Buhari is no more in power in Nigeria. That is inevitable. So if they are taking the seriousness that they think they cannot bring now, all alone, I'm sure we may have had a good go ahead in Mali. Because why, if one thing to negotiate is the positive part is implementation of that disagreement. We saw it all in Northern Ireland with the IRA and the Ulster Unionist Party and the United Kingdom government. Now we are seeing it again in the issue of Mali and its spillover that has brought so much of Fulani refugees into Nigeria, so much so that it has forced displacements of indigenous people in essential lands across North Nigeria and of course it is not resolved. And now the leaders think they can give it another go. I repeat what I said earlier, years ago. The right way to solve the Mali crisis is to get the entire West African leaders on the table to forcefully implement the 2015 peace agreement that can get refugees back to their places. If you try to put pressure on the Mali government, what you have is coup and catacombs and catacombs and catacombs as will not seem to have. Okay. Dr. Kachonu Nudru, do you think that the non-implementation of the peace agreement like you have mentioned is a justification for the military junta to want to stay in power for the next four years rather than have an election conducted in next month? Is that enough justification? No, no, no, that's not enough. Yes, I'm also asking if that, because I mean in less than nine months there's been two coups already and that doesn't really tell well for the West African region. So I'd like to show your thoughts on that. Yes, it is not any reason for the military junta to do the coup because the military junta are doing coup actually forecloses any progress in regards to implementation of that 2015 peace agreement because the junta has had their reasons for coup. The other junta do the coup when there was strong pressure from Nigeria and President Goodwill Junta was going there and going there and going there again and because of the pressures some people felt was coming from Nigeria they did that coup to foresaw what they thought the civilian administration would have done if they still were in place. So what I still say it has to be a rich and wild thing. Everybody must come together. Don't leave it for the Malians alone, no, because as I said earlier it's like a dam. When the dam breaks the floor affects everybody in the sub-region as you've seen it affect everybody in the sub-region. They should take it seriously and not leave it as the Malians crisis, now they should not. Let's not look into the sanctions that have been placed. Give us some clarity as to what Ekoas is trying to achieve and what exactly these sanctions are like. Dr. Cornola Simigoyta has said that these sanctions are unfair and they do not represent what Ekoas even stands for. So give us some clarity on that. Well, the sanctions are coming late, the sanctions should have been there yesterday. The military coup was a strategy to undermine the implementation of the peace agreement. That's when the sanctions should have come right when the coup came in. We've allowed them to sit down and they started enjoying the things that come with office and suddenly what would you want to say to them? They just like all Taboos African leaders will want to stay put, will want to give you dates, will want to deceive the population. I don't see any implementation of the peace agreement as far as those soldiers that did the coup are there. So what I think we should topple up on the sanctions. We should put more pressure on them. We should have started this pressure right from the very first week when the soldiers came in because the essence of them coming in was to block the sustained progress of the implementation of the peace agreement. We have to get the soldiers out, put a civilian government in place and then get those people to carry out the peace agreement. With other peace agreements you will continue to have this instability within the Taboos African sub-region as you have seen it affect Nigeria, affect other countries. There were even countries where the people were told if you ever see a manlion with his capital on the street as it was in Ghana, slaughter the capital, don't let them, don't accommodate them. But we have audited them in Nigeria except the way we did it. We didn't do it honestly. We had pretended we were doing agricultural programs, there are notes and today we have IDPs in Nigeria displaced for those foreigners to stay in our villages and I don't see any end to that. That's part of the reason why if you ask me, I will tell you, we are very administrations afraid that should really lead such legacies will of course be uptold by whoever comes after him. And that's why I believe in the first place, refugees should be kept at home. Dr, you're talking about tightening and even more sanctions to put pressure on the coup plotters. But look at the reaction from the coup plotters now. They've currently closed all borders with Ekoa's member states and neighboring countries. They don't seem to be bothered by these sanctions. It doesn't seem like any of it is going to move any of them. And so very likely it's the citizens, it's the malians that will suffer. So how long are we going to play these games? If Ekoa is placing sanctions, Mali on the other hand is reacting to the sanctions or the coup plotters are reacting to sanctions and shutting their borders with these countries. How much longer will this last and what will eventually at least make a difference? Thank you very much for this angle. This tells you that the sanctions are coming late. If the sanctions are coming much, much earlier, they will have no part to the road that they are taking. It doesn't lead them anywhere. Yes, they could do this as a way to show that they could do a tit for tat. You can do a tit for tat with the suppression. Once you're closed all around, you will go nowhere. That's why once the Ekoa's people are united in their mindset about Mali and Mali is totally coddled off, it's only a matter of time before people inside will tell the soldiers, you cannot win this way, you have to open up to the suppression, you have to open up to Ekoa. Don't forget, no man is an island, nobody can live alone. So what you're not seeing them do, it's nothing. We should not stop. We should put more sanctions and we should get international community to understand what we're doing. These soldiers are not agreeing to an implementation of the special agreement. And if they are to sustain and succeed in that, that would be a very big problem for the suppression because wherever else Mali affects the suppression, whatever affects Mali affects the rest of us. We should have done this earlier than now. We should not in any way step down, put more sanctions, they will come to the table. Okay, Dr. Khachron, let's talk about the trickle down effect now. You have mentioned that first of all, Nigeria is bearing the brunt already. Will there be a trickle down effect to other countries in the West African region? I'm talking about what is currently going on right now in Mali and the effect it will have. So what are these effects that other countries in this region are expected to experience? Well, as you can see from the Nigerian experience, the Bororiflanese that came in from Mali are unknown to Arshaws.  Those guns they were bringing from the war fronts in Mali and they were bringing them into Nigeria.  They most also have affected other countries that are much smaller than Nigeria is. You let them carry the guns into the bushes before you know it, then the gun becomes an aphrodisiac that now prompts them to do anything. Today, I was surprised. I was speaking to Kadila last week and I said, these cars, I like them. What are the colors? He said, oh God, are you asking about colors? I said, what do you mean? Are you in Mali and I said, what do you mean? He says, only Malians that would talk about colors would they buy cars because why they would buy several colors of the same car. He's telling you that when these Malian kidnappers get money from kidnapping in Nigeria, as I'm sure they also do in other countries, they will buy cars, buy several colors, take them to Bamako. Once the money come back, they will come back to Nigeria and stop their crisis. And that's why you see someone like Governor Erufai got very angry because no matter what you agree with those Malians, once the money they have is finished, they will go back again to the crimes. That's why you saw the way they were attacking people in Nigeria. They don't know who is who. They don't know the difference between the Hausa and the Fula. They just attacked anybody that they saw. For the first time in our lifetime, we saw Fula killing Hausa in Basari, in Sabana, in Kankara, in Emusa, in places like Maru, in Angkor, in Tangobe, in Densado, look at Benoist states. They have several IDPs, same thing with Platte, as the last time I was told, it has increased from 77 to 125 villages in Platte state. Now under IDP camp, while foreign refugees occupy their villages. Now this is going to be a problem for whoever is going to come after President Buahari because indigenous people come and complain, give us some of our land, accept us back in our lands. You cannot have Galibashay who tell them they don't have permission before going back to their lands. They will find a way to go back to their lands. And that becomes a problem for the refugees that President Buahari has tried to water in Nigeria. So this is this problem, I'm talking about Nigeria. What about the trickle down effect in other nations that also have different ways of trying to react to these kind of security challenges? It is a problem, it's a wistachrican problem, and should be collected and dealt by all leaders in West Africa because whatever it will affect the rest of the force. As I said earlier, it's like a dam, when the dam bursts, the overflow from that dam bursting will affect everybody within the vicinity of the dam. So whenever the dam, a manly burst, it affected everybody in West Africa's operation. And that's, I believe, we must take very very seriously and put more sanctions on them. Sanctions do work, but they take time to work. That's why I say, you shouldn't have said it now, you should have said it way before, day before yesterday, right when the soldiers came in. Give them sanctions because we understand why they came in. They came in to stop the implementation of peacekeeping. Okay, Dr. Ono Nuju, I'm not sure if we still have you. All right, we may have lost him briefly there, but of course we will reconnect with Dr. Katch Ono Nuju, who's of course the Director General at the Heritage Center. Okay, welcome back. Dr. Ono Nuju, can you hear us? Yes, I can hear you very clearly. Okay, welcome back. Sorry, we had lost you briefly there. You keep talking about the 2015 peace agreement. Can we get some clarity on what exactly that is? It's as quickly as possible before I ask the next question. Well, the peace agreement, because there was this war that was much, much earlier than 2015. But in 2015, there was a peace agreement agreed to resettle both the Fulanese who were escaping from the Central Mali, where they were fighting with the dogmas to come back to where they used to live as their homes. But when there was some door, President Buhari came in and instead of him pursuing that peace agreement vigorously, he now thought he could resettle those Mali and refugees in Nigeria. That was why he started applying for glazing reserves. They weren't anything to do with agriculture. He wanted to resettle those refugees. Nigeria refused. They asked for car quality. They refused. He talked about consolidation from the ground and surface water plus 50 kilometers of land impacting those waters. Nigeria refused. He now tried to talk about glazing reserves. Nigeria refused. Then the Fulani militia meant sudden killing as a way to ethnically cleanse indigenous people off land to take that land. And that was why the resettlement occurred.  Even though we're not at war, it has a consequence of corruption. This is a completely shocking analysis with regards to the banditry as it has been called in Nigeria and insurgency that we've been dealing with. A lot of people wouldn't understand it from this angle. But from what you're saying... That is the root of it. That is the root of it. Don't ever... Nothing about the banditry has to do with agriculture. It's all about land. When we didn't give land to the president, as he sought them, that was why the militia men started looking for land violently. And that's why, as I'm talking to you, we have IDP camps all over the note. Even though we're not at war, that's why that problem occurred. Okay. So Papa, do you think that the leaders of this region have actually done enough and echo as a governing body has done enough in addressing and ensuring that we do not have a repeat of coup d'etat and unconstitutional seizure of power in Africa? No, they've not done enough because they kept moot at the time of the coup. I advise privately that the sanctions should come in. Don't give them chance. It's when you relax that other coup plotters will also think they can do a counter coup. Show them that coups are not allowed in a democratic setting. But apart from Dr. Katch, apart from having these sanctions, are there other means that these leaders would have intervened without having to... I mean, we're getting... Because we've gotten to the point where we have to use sanctions now. So prior to this time, should there be another approach that would have been applied to quell down all of this? Yes, yes. We have previously, we have before in Africa, used the military of other West African states, most especially Nigeria, to intervene in countries like that to bring peace. Because that would have been the best thing to do. Because those doing that coup right now are argumentators and protagonists in that war. Bring back refugees to return to back on the... And then that put pressure on countries in the sub-regions like Nigeria. You can see how we Nigerians suffer. So it's not as if this thing, it's a rocket science. No, if you don't do that, what you should do, as at the time when you should do it, you will suffer the consequences as we have suffered right now. We didn't do it well. We also weren't sincere, pretending as if we had an agricultural problem we wanted to solve in Nigeria, whereas it was a refugee crisis. And today what we have, we displaced Nigerians internally and you have foreigners in their villages. Of course, it's not going to work because we're not at war. So at last, the army has been to be allowed to deal with these people because these people are terrorists. They're terrorizing Nigerians, killing Nigerians everywhere. And we should never have tolerated that as President Buhari was willing to tolerate it. Well, a final question from me, because the angle that you've brought in now is a whole interview's worth.  Because I know there's people who would argue that most of the people who are committing these crimes in Northern Nigeria are Nigerians and not from outside, they're not Malians or anything. But that's, it's all different. Hold on, hold on. You don't know this. I will teach you a place. I have been on this issue. For this problem, I've been to Mali. For this crisis, I've been to Gambia. For this crisis, I've been to Saga. So I know this issue. I was dealing with this issue other President Gulagianata. When President Buhari came in, this agreement was reached, where I advised him, if do this, get other leaders to implement it. No, he thought he could resettle the refugees here. Me and you now know why it's been since looking for land, looking for land, looking for land, and you couldn't get it. Niger is about to leave office. What would be the fate of those refugees if the indigenous people who have lost their central land are today in IDP camp? What that tells you is that the West African leaders will have to find a way to resolve this problem. Well, let's talk about... Dr. Anandudu, I want us to close with talking about the international community. Mali is Africa's third largest producer of gold. There's obviously going to be some, maybe, not obviously, some influence from the French-speaking community, from Germany and the likes. Do you think that they would have any influence here? Yes, the French have been here. The French were actually the first to move in with the peacekeeping operation. I met the French there when I went to Mali, and I went to myself, to Empotsi, central Mali, where this issue was occurring. I came back to Nigeria, and I shared my experiences with Nigerians on channels television. So I believe that the input of French, the French are very, very important because as you registered, there are minerals there, and there are international organizations and companies that are there mining these minerals. And of course, they wouldn't be involved in such an economically lucrative activity but that's of support for their home government. So whatever you do in that space, those people will care how you pray, and the home government will also be there to caution you so that you know two things that undermine the economic activity that their home companies are engaging in Mali. So Mali cannot be resolved by one person. It can be done by Nigeria alone. So when you saw Nigeria try to travel, travel, travel with good luck and try to bring some kind of influence, the coup happened. We need the contribution of everybody in the sub-region to solve it because Mali and crisis is an aqueous crisis. No one single person should try to do it alone. It is that serious. You can see how it has affected us in Nigeria from my explanation. So it also would have affected all the countries in the sub-region from what you've seen just in Nigeria. Please, we should come together to resolve Mali and crisis. All right, Dr. Kachan on the view. Thank you so much for this conversation. I truly enjoyed it. And of course, thanks for the different angles that you've also thrown into the discussion. We wish you a great day ahead and looking forward to speaking with you again as always. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. And away from Mali, we're back here in Lagos and this is where we will be saying goodbye this morning. But of course, if you want to follow up or catch up on any of those conversations, please simple on our social media platforms. On Facebook or at PlusCVAfrica and Instagram, do subscribe to our YouTube channels PlusCVAfrica live star. And I am messable for to have a great day ahead. And I am Musaugi of Bona.