Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Mehmed and I work at ICANN, DNS Operations. We are going to talk about some DNS security today. We have some speakers. As I said, my name is Mehmed. I work for ICANN. Dr. Richard Lam works at ICANN as well. And we have Sandy from Nominum. We have Ken Silva of Verisign. And we have Dan Kaminsky from Recursion Ventures. Did I say that right? All right. So I'm going to actually have Dr. Richard Lam of ICANN start and talk a little bit about DNSSEC and the recent happenings. Okay. That works. Good. Hi. As Mehmed said, I'm Rick Lam. I'm the program manager for DNSSEC at ICANN. Well, first of all, I was told that this white shirt is just completely wrong, so I need to get rid of the white shirt. I did have a suit. I wasn't going to wear that at first. I think, actually, if the camera can zoom to show what he's wearing, it's the DS record for the DNSSEC route. That's the hash for the root key. That's for the signed route. That's of July 15 live. Anyway, well, back to the formal program. So, you know, ICANN, I don't know if you guys know what ICANN does, but ICANN is involved in coordinating the unique identifiers on the Internet. You know, make sure people don't pick the same domain name, the same IP address, stuff like that. You know, I think we do a pretty good job. But last July 15, one of the biggest changes as Vint Cerf, one of the fathers of the Internet, has actually confirmed his saying is that one of the biggest changes in the last 20 years happened. We actually signed the route of the DNSSEC just to get an idea, basically, of how many people here in the South don't waste your time. How many of you guys know about DNSSEC? If I say DNS, what? Wonderful. Oh, my God. Awesome. Okay, I can skip all this. All right. Anyway, you know, in our humble way, and this was a joint effort. And this was a joint effort I need to make clear with Verisign and Department of Commerce. But this is one of the times we've worked really well together in this and actually have created this signed route. It's kind of a humble thing. It's really just generating one key at the top of a PKI. But we involve people from all over the world to bring it into it because, well, of course, you know, who's going to say, trust me? So, you know, we made sure we had 21 people involved in this. And so far, we haven't seen any problems. And it's one of the things that's hard to convey about this humble event is that this has opened the door to a whole range of other applications and other things that people can do. Because now we have this single source of trust. Time will only tell if it really is a single source of trust, you know, if people start building their applications on it. But now we have this opportunity. So it is one of the biggest changes. And hopefully, I'm sure Dan will talk to this. But, you know, hopefully this will create the opportunity for people to create solutions for some of the things that have been plaguing the Internet forever. I mean, there was a great line Jeff Moss gave at the Black Hat Conference that said, you know, what security have we really done? What have we really solved?  And not much, but here's one example. Here's a concrete example of something that they can be used in the future. And so we're hoping this will work out fine. And later on, the questions, the answers, please just ask me anything you want to know. And you'll remember about how the system was designed, how we generate the keys and that whole process. That was something I was involved with. Thanks. Yep. Thank you very much. Sandy? Sandy Woolborn from NAMOM. It is extremely interesting that, you know, we got the route signed. That's a huge thing. If people know anything about DNSSEC, it's been like, it's been kind of cynical in a way because it's been 15 years that people, you know, there were, I don't know, two or three designs of it that came out. And finally, some people have agreed on it. But we're just at the start. Like, this route thing is a big deal, but it's just the start. I mean, .com won't be signed until March of 11, right, Ken? And, you know, I think the cool thing about being here is I'd encourage people here to take a look at it because we'd rather find out the problems sooner rather than later. So break it now. Break it now. There you go. Ken? Thanks for that, Sandy. Hey, I'm out there on the... We have to actually break it. Yeah. It might be broken. Without the labor and the DNSSEC element too much, it is a pretty important milestone and we get asked a lot, you know, why did it take 15 years? And even at that, even after you decided on what the standard was going to be, why did it take so long to roll out? DNS is a pretty important part of the internet infrastructure and it's an absolutely critical part. And I don't think anyone who was involved wanted to just sort of roll things out without understanding the impact that it would have on various pieces of network hardware. Throughout the years, network vendors, security vendors, firewall vendors, et cetera have, you know, tried to add value to DNS packets as they come through the network. Load balancers, those sorts of things. That if something was on port 53 and it was purported to be DNS, then it could only be 512 bytes long. And that has changed. So we spent a lot of time really working with ISPs and working with various vendors, hardware and software vendors, to make sure that the subtle little things in home routers and consumer routers, et cetera, didn't try to block those elements. Now all of the pieces of DNSSEC are not actually in place yet. While we've signed the route and many top level domains are beginning to sign there, there's still much, much more work to do. And Dan has done some work in this area. There still isn't a good way for the end user to actually see the benefits of DNSSEC just yet because all of the bells and whistles haven't been fully deployed down at the client level. So as those start to change and those start to become more visible to the consumer and to the end user, I think you'll see the benefits of DNSSEC really start to take off and adoption will begin to take off. We don't expect every name in the comm zone or the net zone or any zone for all that matter to be signed or every delegation be signed. But we do expect that as the tools become more prevalent and as it becomes easier and easier to adopt, that people will adopt it as a normal course of events. Now that may take another 10 years or it may take 10 months for all we know, but we hope that it adopts quickly. We hope that the client side tools begin to take off and that DNSSEC becomes an integral part of the infrastructure for not just passing domain name information, IP addresses, but for also passing other things because now we have an infrastructure that is a trusted infrastructure from the top to the bottom. Is it going to solve all of the problems around the DNS system? Absolutely not. In fact, in some ways it may actually create some interesting things from an infrastructure standpoint. But there are many other elements other than just the resolution of DNS, which are part of the DNS system. And while the last two years I think we've focused a lot of attention on talking about the resolution piece or the DNS servers themselves, the other elements still need some work and that is the registration process, for example. You can make a change and then wind up signing that change. Someone could maliciously make a change and then sign that change and then push that out. And then we would have a bigger problem because we actually trust that. With over a thousand registrars that are registering .com domain names, there are a lot of points of failure there where the system could be compromised and we're going to spend probably the next two years focusing on how we can tighten that down with multi-factor authentication and some things that we can do to help protect against social engineering. Okay, so now that you didn't hear a single thing I said, I'm finished and I'll hand it over to Dan. Dan? I think I really understood what I was getting myself into. I'm Dan Kaminsky. You don't know me. I've been speaking here at DEF CON for quite some time. I had Chief Scientist at Recursion Ventures. And about 18 months ago, I think I was like most engineers when I looked at DNSSEC as way too much work for no obvious benefit. Yeah, it turned out I was wrong. This technology is awesome.   No, this one's actually pretty cool. So we're releasing a name server. We're releasing a name server and we're releasing a bunch of code. We're effectively here to do things like, how about we deploy DNSSEC in two minutes? How about we get DNSSEC support in every open SSL-based application by running a single command? What if you could get the browser lock immediately in Internet Explorer and Firefox and Chrome based on DNSSEC, making self-signed certificates work and work securely? What if you could actually recognize email as signed and actually easily validate that signature? What if getting PGP keys was not such an utter pain? Wait a second. All of this is not just in theory. All this is not just stuff we could do. It's stuff that we're able to do today. In security we have made a tremendous amount of promises about how we think the world could work safely. And you may have noticed or you may not have, but a lot of the code that's been supposed to work been supposed to be helping us defend our networks, been supposed to be helping us fulfill our promises. Yeah, that stuff doesn't work in the real world. It stops scaling real fast. This DNSSEC stuff, DNS has been scaling like nothing else for 25 years. We'd be lucky to have security working that well. And it looks like we got pretty lucky. Thank you, Dan. I would like to add something quick and then we will move on to the questions. If you have questions, please move on to the mic. That's located in that direction. This is, DNSSEC obviously is something that's been worked on by IETF, Internet Engineering Task Force for many years. So everybody over there deserves a big applaud and big acknowledgement about the fact that they have been volunteering and working on this project and they are the ones who made this technology come to the reality. This is one of those cool things that doesn't have an Apple logo, but still very cool, I believe. So it's a really cool technology. So I would like to move on to the questions. Any questions? Is it my understanding that the signing key was split up and given to individuals so that the event of a meltdown could be reconstructed? I will have Dr. Lam explain that more clearly. That's a great question. Thank you very much for asking that. Like anything like this that's high-profiling, sometimes it gets sensationalized. What is split across seven smart cards is the encryption key that is used to encrypt the private part of the root key. That encrypted private part of the root key is another smart card that ICANN controls and has, of course, duplicates of. And we back up copies of in various Class 5 GSA safes that we have. So the idea is that you need five of those cards to come together and the encrypted copy of the KSK that's sitting on a card to recreate the private key inside a crypto device, a hardware security module inside a crypto device. And this is something that's only going to happen if all four crypto boxes on both coasts completely obliterate themselves. I don't know. There's an earthquake on the west coast and a nuclear explosion in DC. Actually, it's not quite in DC. It's in Culpeper, Virginia. None of this is secret, by the way. It's all on the website. So that's what they are. Those cards do not have pieces of the root key, period. So no elaborate Hollywood scheme of, you know, intercepting them all and making the duplicates and anything like that. Well, I mean, you'd have to, that's why it's five of seven. You'd have to go across at least get five of these guys and make duplicates of them. But they still would not have the root key. It's still got no value. But, you know, on the flip side of that is also that who's going to trust ICANN, right? So what we have, this encrypted version of the private key, we have no value. I mean, this is the standard. And I know you guys are very expert at this. But this is, you know, where we've tried to gain some security in this by doing this M of N scheme. Does that answer your question? Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Yeah, the idea behind that I think is sound. And that is that early on there was a lot of discussion about, you know, who actually can generate the keys and who actually, you know, can decrypt the keys or encrypt the keys, etc. And it was decided pretty early on that no one entity would alone be able to do that. And it would have to involve a conspiracy of a large number of people in order to do that. And the key signing ceremony, I think, was pretty elaborate. And there were a number of people there for that. And there does have to be a certain number of people involved in order to actually produce those keys. So I think in general it was a good, well thought through plan in that no one entity would be able to control the whole thing from start to finish. So there's an interesting reason why a lot of authentication systems fail. Anyone here familiar with the phrase Federation in the technological sense? So the whole thing is, if you want everything to work, you need a single route. I'm just going to say that as an absolute statement because we've seen ten years of people arguing otherwise and failing miserably. So you need like one single source that everyone trusts. The problem is anyone who normally becomes that single source turns into a monster. This has happened time and time again and believe me there's industry after industry where I can show you it being true. They're like, look at all this power I can make a ton of money. But not in the DNS system that's never happened. The interesting thing about the DNS architecture is it has a property of what we're referring to as a silent overseer. Structurally there is a single route but that route is so constrained both by the technology which is the best delegation system that we have out there and by enormous amount of politics and political checks and balances. And some people think it's a bug. It is a feature. It is because of this ability to have a route that everyone can trust but it itself is constrained that we're able to build out these systems and actually have a very strong neutrality in how the system is operated. And so this splitting up of seven keys, it's less about, and I'm one of the people who has one of the keys by the way, it's less about a power that I have and more about a power that they don't. It's so the only way where that key material could be abused is if all of us came together in some kind of crazy international conspiracy. It does not happen. Thank you. Before moving to the other question I would like to add some... It's very hard. So I want to add that there were actually 21 trusted community representatives who took place in these key ceremonies. I was the ceremony administrator on behalf of ICANN and there were 18 countries represented in those events. So it wasn't only US base, it was people from China, Czech Republic. I don't remember exactly where everybody was from but there was a lot of countries, 18 countries represented. So one more thing I would like to remind. I believe most of you read a lot of news this week about a reboot key being, you know, available and all. There's no reboot key. I want to assure you that there is no such thing that I am aware of. So what people were trying to talk about was the RKSH, basically what Dr. Lam just explained. Next question. Dan, you said that today we can use DNSSEC to distribute self-signed SSL or at least authenticate self-signed SSL certificates and PGP keys. Did I hear that right? Yes. So I guess I was asleep on the ball the last couple of years looking at this. Can you just talk briefly about any new RR types or how that's done? So the fundamentally interesting question is DNSSEC allows you to release bootstrapping information. Normally this just comes from DNS. You want to connect to an IP address. You don't know what it is. You can bootstrap and find out what that IP is going to be. DNSSEC upgrades us from finding an IP to finding out other stuff, certificate records, anti-spam records and so on. The precise question you're asking is, so what does it actually look like on the wire? What are the actual formats? That is a raging debate, which I'm not getting myself particularly into. So the piece that I've worked on, the piece that we're actually releasing code for is we've got deliberately incorrect representations of the information. So we'll have, this is a very rough way of saying, oh, you want the SSL certificate, here's kind of what it looks like. This is the wrong way to do it, but it's okay. We're showing it's possible to get end-to-end trust of small bits of key information delivered from the delegated DNS into your desktop so that I can know whether to take trusted paths or not. So if I wanted to get in on the debate on this standard, now's a good time since it's not set. Now is a good time. That would be a good time. Yes. Thank you. Any question? Yeah, I was interested in the registration issue. I mean, when we come into basically any certificate or any signing scheme, you're really only as strong as your weakest link, and you have a lot of registrars out there.   I had a tech support call a couple months ago where I talked a guy with root privileges, one of your domain registrars. I mean, we'll leave the name out of it to prevent a lawsuit. But basically, we're a talk to guy with root privileges into running a command. He had no idea what he was doing, running a shown minus R command for him with root privileges on a box. So I have to assume that the same kind of, and this isn't even social engineering. I just called up and told him, hey, I've got an account. I need you to do this for me. He said, okay, sure. No problem. And hey, what did that do again? So I guess my question really comes down to what protections are we putting in place to prevent the dumb register out there from starting to sign some of these certificates? Because I think at that point, I know we can talk about revocation, but I don't think that's, I mean, it is practical if we find out that they're signing bad certificates. But if they have bad practices in the first place, I think the model starts to fall apart. Has somebody talked about the protections put in place or the verification of the registrars? Yeah. So I'll start with that. I didn't have something to add to that and maybe break this as well. But so I agree with what you said with respect to, you know, there is a large number of registrars out there. Some are better than others. The opposite extreme of that is that there are some very, very, very good ones. As a matter of fact, probably the most well-known of them are very good and have good security practices. The registration process, unfortunately from a business model perspective, often tends to lean towards ease of registration more than anything else. So it's about volume more than it is about quality, if you will, particularly some of the smaller ones. Now, that doesn't mean that they deliberately don't want to have good security. It just means that, you know, in order to be competitive, it's all about, you know, one-click sign-up and moving through and adding things. As with any system, and the same applies to digital certificates as well, that there are some CAs that are better than others and some that do very rigorous checks and some that don't. And so I think we're going to wind up in the same sort of dilemma when it comes to signed delegations. And that's going to be how good is the registrar behind that. And I think over time, the reputations of the registration system will begin to come into play and become more important. Where today, literally everything is self-signed, if you will, once you get beyond, you know, COM, let's say, or EDU or any of the other signed top-level domains, although COM is not just yet. But then everything's pretty much self-signed. The trust system is that I trust you as a brand or I trust you as a business, and so therefore I'll trust your signature. But ultimately, it may become more and more important who additionally signed that than just the fact that you signed it. So this kind of blew my mind. There is a fundamental structural reason why DNSSEC ends up having better properties with bad web. DNSSEC can deal with bad web interfaces far better than X509 can. If you have the best CA in the world and they issue you a certificate, LEND certificate shack down the street can also issue someone else's certificate, and their cert is just as good as your cert, even though you spent all that time, money, and energy getting the really good and strongly validated certificate. This means, unfortunately, X509 as a structure ends up being erased to the bottom. When certificates first came on the scene, everyone did strong validation, and then one guy did it a little weaker, and the next guy did it a little weaker, and the next guy did it a little weaker, and it went down pretty far. And that's just something that has to happen when everyone is able to operate in the exact same space at the same time. What's interesting about DNS, and this is fascinating because you know it was not intentional, but what's fascinating about DNS is you have this entire network of registrars, and they handle the web interface, they handle the SQL code, they handle all the stuff that is empirically in the field been what's been getting attacked, honestly way more than cash poisoning has been. If you have one company like a mark monitor or a CSC or something, and they are your registrar, these guys are massively professional operations, and they watch out for what's going on. Importantly, as long as your name is registered through a particular registrar, no other registrar can impact your name. They just don't have the ability because the actual registry, the Verisign Com, only accepts updates from the one trusted registrar. So because you have what we call the exclusionary property, you have a thousand registrars, this one's a little more secure, this one's a little more secure, this one's a little more secure, it becomes a race to the top. That is how you structurally create a secure system. Thanks. Which is not, I believe, only going to make sure that the users are getting the best value, but also at the same time the best service. We want to be able to reward the registrars that do the work that protects users, and that is fantastic. Yep, next question.  If you go one level higher in the stack, it's sort of not the one machine trusting another machine, you got the name in there correctly, there's no questions, but once in a person looking at that from address in an email, looking at a website URL, not one of us, one of those other people, there's a lot of attacks. Let's say if you look at technologies like SPF, the reason why SPF doesn't block all spam is not due to rampant DNS cash poisoning, it's because people say, oh, bank-secure.com, I work with, I go to the bank, so that must be my bank. What, are there specific, I think, you know, we talked about EV certs, brand protection companies sort of going out, taking out these sites, are there specific proposals, are there specific standards for getting EV cert technology into DNS sec, are there ways you can do this in a really secure way where it's not just going to be more whack-a-mole going out looking for all these cousin domains, IDN names proofing, all of that kind of stuff? So, a lot of people think now with DNS sec we don't need the certificate authorities. And it's not true. DNS sec protects domains. The certificate authorities identify brands. Domains and brands are not the same thing. With DNS sec we can say the only certificate in the world that is valid for this domain is the one with this particular hash. Now, if it turns out that that particular certificate is an EV certificate, what we now have is a combination of two good things. We have extended validation identifying the brand of the website, and we have DNS sec making sure no other CA, no other certificate, no other code can actually interfere with that one extended validation cert. Last year, Mike Suspin and Alexander Sodorov actually demonstrated tremendous attacks against extended validation sites if you could do something as simple as getting a non-extended validation certificate for the same name. DNS sec stops that. Extended validation is interesting technology. Right now it's in the browser. Eventually we want to see it in email as well. Why shouldn't you be able to know from an extended validation standpoint that you got an email from your bank? I think what's incumbent upon the people in the industry that sort of create the processes and create the security mechanisms no matter what part of the infrastructure it is, I think we have to realize that if it's too hard for most people to implement, they will find an easier way or something easier to implement that is less secure. It is our responsibility to come up with good security that's easy to implement, and I think Dan demonstrated some of that a couple of days ago with his talk at Black Hat where all of the talk was about, including from me, by the way, was about DNS sec is hard. It's going to be really hard to implement without the right tools and seamless and easy for the end user. The feedback is good because I can tell you that if the end user has to go look up which registrar registered this name, it's never going to happen. It's never going to happen at all. The real estate in a browser is so expensive. The little padlock was hard enough to get in there. Turning the bar green was a lot of pixels that we got. But I think that it has been a mistake that people who have been involved in computer security have made from the very beginning and that perfect has always stood in the way of good. And a lot of good technologies were never implemented or good ideas were never achieved because it was just too doggone hard to do. And I think if we have learned nothing over the last 25 years, we should have learned that if we don't make security seamless to the user and that the user doesn't have to think about it, it just happens. And that's the best part of the DNS aspect of this. Is it so much if it happens in the background and it's done automatically that the user doesn't have to engage with. And I think we need to build on that and do as much as we can securing the infrastructure and securing the transactions that the user never has to interact with. They just know when it's not working and it's going to work and it's going to work well most of the time. And that's where the challenge, I think, to the industry is, yeah, we've got a lot of crypto algorithms that are good and easy to come up with. But I tell you, if you ask every user to start generating keys and stuff like that to do SSL transactions, it would never have happened. And we'd still be, I mean, user names and passwords are at least 15 years out of date, okay, 10 for sure. But somehow end users have never wanted to adopt a tougher technology because we haven't made it easy enough for them to do that. Anybody else want to answer this? We are... Change is out of the bottle, let's do it. Let's build it, that's great, perfect. We certainly are looking forward to demo versions of dense software. Very exciting. Next question. So the root key is obviously physically protected. What protections do we have against crypto attacks when our attackers can have a botnet of 100,000 computers or more or anyone with a financial incentive, say governments, that have the kind of power, the massive server stacks to try and generate a collision against your hash or just a crypto attack against your root key will it be changed every so often? Or is it just a very long key length? What do we have going on here? It's both. It's all of those. You could do an answer. Yeah, Dr. Alam, could you start? It's an RSA 2048 bit key. We have plans, no specific plans, but plans to roll it somewhere between two to five years. Currently, a lot of the crypto experts, I would hope that it was around here or maybe some of his pals were around here, but that's considered a pretty reasonable time for 2048 bit keys. So we do have a rollover mechanism that we hope we don't have to ever, ever use. But again, if there's some report in the crypto world that says that we should, we can roll the key and do that hopefully seamlessly over the next, in a few years. Right now it's a very manual process, but there are automated mechanisms that the IETF, you know, who developed the DNS like protocol is also trying to press forward. A quick follow up. Do we have a key revocation protocol? If it is compromised, can that key be invalidated immediately? Yes, we do. We have a process for that. There was a fair amount of discussion about what key sizes would be used based on what devices and what compute horsepower would be available to the systems that we're querying in. So the key link is sufficiently strong to survive good attacks and thus far that key link has not been cracked. But we expect people will try. We fully expect that they will try and that's why we've used tried and true algorithms which have been under attack for a number of years. Specifically, we used the latest hashing algorithms so that those are sufficiently secure today. But there is a protocol in place that should the key ever become compromised, there is a process in place for revoking it and replacing that key. Thank you. Maybe he wants to speak. Yes? Well, I think it's not only the root key that is in that situation. It's the keys for everybody. I mean, there are established rollover scenarios and there's also established protocol or at least conventions for trying to minimize the amount of communication that you have with your parent zones in order to update the signatures on your individual records say that if people are coming after you and, for example, you want to use a shorter key link. Just as a note, in X-509 we talk about revocation. We think we have revocation. We look at everything that's supposed to implement revocation and it always turns it off because the performance is terrible. In DNSSEC, yeah, you're looking stuff up anyway. That's kind of the point. Here's the deal. In X-509, no one wants to say my website goes down if Verisign servers go down. Sorry, but that's the truth. And so we end up with everything turns off revocation checking except for EV where it's contractually obligated.  That's on you. You're kind of okay with your web server going down too. And so we have this really interesting situation where in DNSSEC you can have revocation. You actually kind of get it for free because you're always refreshing your key material. And so revocation becomes as simple as the next time you refresh your key material, there's a new key there. It's effectively for free. I don't know that I agree that everything turns off revocation. We're getting currently two billion revocation checks a day just for our certificate. So I think that's a pretty substantial number, but I don't disagree that some systems do turn it off because it does hurt the performance. At the point where there's two billion, okay, not everything turns it off, that is correct. One follow-up just to the last question. Would you like to address it? Is that there are actually two keys in DNSSEC. There's this top root key, that's 2048 bit, that signs another 1024 bit key that gets rolled four times a year. So that gets changed very frequently. Just thought I'd throw that in there. Next question, please. Now that you've fixed DNS, what's the next fundamental part of the internet that you're going to fix? Netware. Well, since we are running out of IP spaces, perhaps we will fix the IPv6. Not that we will fix, but we will all move on to IPv6, I guess. Well, there's also the whole routing structure. All we've done is taking this one small little phone book part here and trying to secure that. There's this whole set of IP addresses and routing tables, and that's something called RPKI, and there are a number of people working on it. There are always some policy issues with things like this. The technology is there, people have developed a lot of protocols on it, and I recommend you talk to see some of the IETF things under their CIDR group, S-I-D-R. But I think with the routing infrastructure and BGP in particular, it presents an interesting challenge because the entire internet has relied upon that infrastructure being operating in exactly the way that it operates today. To begin to add security to that, every router on the internet has to implement it or it doesn't work. And so the challenge that we have today is that it's not difficult for someone in Pakistan to redirect YouTube.com to Pakistan because today it relies on a really a handshake and a slap on the back that says, okay, only this AS can announce this address block, it's only if the ISPs actually enforce it and not all of them actually enforce it and validate that that AS is authorized to announce that space. So until we have some security around that, whether that's a signed BGP announcement or whatever it is, and there are a number of standards that are being worked, it's going to involve the entire internet community and the ISP community to implement that change. So that's not going to happen suddenly, but thankfully the work is being done today that's laying the foundation for that. Perhaps not the example you gave, but the web forwarding kind of issues which similar things has happened in China with one of the root servers and made news, you probably heard, like forwarding the IP address or forwarding the resolver to a different IP address. What exactly happened in China was that iRoot was suddenly resolving to facebook.com which was very interesting within China, within some more region and it was actually detected by some community in Chile in South America and this made a big news and these kind of things obviously will be avoided when DNSSEC is implemented because it will just not work, it will just not resolve. So you were talking about before how part of the beauty of DNSSEC is that it can be doing the validation in the background, the user doesn't need to worry about it, but aren't we quite a ways off from that? Until everybody starts signing their DNS records I don't see a lot of pressure to kind of move people to start doing that because it's sort of like it works right now as far as most people are concerned. So don't we have to have like client support for doing things like similar things like the padlock so that those people who do start implementing this it'll show up and we can start distinguishing oh this is more secure than this, push people to implement it Have you seen that in any clients as of now? Is there any movement in that area? I think there's three things that have to happen, right? You have to get the domain signed and that's one of the reasons why signing the route is sort of important because it's kind of a chicken and egg problem. If you don't have signing happening then there's not going to be any incentive for clients or ISPs to actually turn on the validation in their infrastructures so they have to believe that it's become important and I think and that process is ongoing because you know if you go to the average ISP and tell them hey turn on the NSSEC validation today they're going to go like why should I do that that's just going to cost me in terms of infrastructure and what do I get economically out of that so that's been one of the historic issues, problems, et cetera beyond just getting the signing infrastructure going so getting the signing infrastructures first the resolving of the structure second I think the point of Dan's talk two days ago was basically well it'll be great if we can get it across all of these large infrastructures but let's start looking at applications that can actually do things on the client sooner rather than later trying to you know with the various prototypes and so forth that he showed where maybe not everything is figured out but hey it's not as hard you know I think the point he's trying to make is it's not as hard as it might be so let's get some applications going and that will convince the rest of the resolving community to go ahead and deploy the NSSEC Thank you Are there any bright spots in that right now like Firefox extensions or anything yes there are some add-ons that you can download for Firefox that would validate against the NSSEC and that would actually show a green light if the NSSEC validation is correct And does that require your DNS infrastructure to be handling that or is that handled from the plug-in well obviously end or go home what's that end to end secure or you're not doing enough that is the bar that we have as a community and though DNSSEC has a lot of support for looking at your resolver making sure the resolver has it there's tremendous value to DNS resolution itself making sure the resolvers are not cash poisoned that's what the technology was originally designed to do what we deployed two years ago was a Band-Aid and correct cryptographic data for just normal records DNSSEC fixes that same roller for a bug the value comes from being able to get all these certificates for recognizing websites for recognizing emails for being able to log into SSH servers this is where this stuff gets particularly valuable and like seriously the we're going to show just how easy it is to patch DNS support DNSSEC support into applications at the end of the day I've probably spent ten times as much time making the rest of the app realize they can actually trust DNS than actually doing any sort of hard DNS work it's kind of cool thank you I am going to close the mic and answers should be limited to two minutes so last question then Dan you were talking about how passwords, username passwords been obsolete ten, fifteen years is there any thought to maybe getting Microsoft, Apple the other OS companies on board having some sort of public key infrastructure for the users maybe smart card with every laptop something like that and authenticating the users via DNSSEC so we refer to this as the domain key infrastructure one of the things that actually we haven't implemented yet so we have a preload library for open SSL that takes every open SSL application it makes it just immediately work with DNSSEC no code modifications whatsoever where this is cool is you can run this against a patchy and suddenly a patchy client certificate checking inherits DNSSEC now the challenge is of course the browser UIs for SSL certificates aren't necessarily beautiful so there's some work to be done thank you next question this will make it a lot easier for sites to use SSL I think once everyone's using SSL how are hotel networks going to man in the middle of me and show me a captive portal and make me agree to terms of service before I can check my email that's an absolutely great question you'll have to come up with more creative ways of getting your credit card information I think but it is kind of interesting because as we've been delving into this over the last several years looking at DNSSEC as the deeper you dive into it and the deeper you're into it you travel around at different conferences and you see the way that they sort of redirect you from one page to another or when you travel to another country and perhaps there's sites that they prefer that you not go to and how they direct things it's amazing how much DNS is used for that and so you start to wonder how are they going to be able to do this following all this stuff and I think that they're just going to have to come up with more creative ways of doing that and rather than play man in the middle it's just going to have to be an overt redirect rather than that some of the solutions I personally seen being developed are using multiple VLANs and using one VLAN where you actually redirect the user to get the credit card payment and then once that is completed you actually move user to a production VLAN where the production VLAN has name servers validating against DNS enabled servers I guess you could also have a sign telling people which site to go to and have that site use HTTPS I think we're going to have to give people I think the browsers are going to end up having to have a first class feature for this is an URL to go to to pay whatever needs to be paid because lacking that feature the hotel community has just been like well we'll just take every website how you doing so let's give them an actual first class way to do it because we do what you got to get connectivity Skype's law and I think this is probably going to have a rather interesting effect is in areas of the world that choose to censor the internet in certain ways using DNS to do that I think are going to be challenged in specific ways because those answers are not going to be properly signed so maybe you want to wait for China to sign an answer saying China has blocked this or maybe not maybe not next question and if you guys have more questions we will be in the track one track one Q&A room I forget the room number but it's 11 11 apologies, thanks for reminding that we will be able to receive more questions if you have any more questions and we would like to get into more details on some subjects tell me a DNS new but what are we actually signing the DNS server itself or the IP address and the middle men men in the middle attack you're sitting that hash over the wire what makes a hacked router and you're sitting in the same hash with a different IP address so look toward that it's a chain of trust so the signature is created using the private the digital signature made over the IP address record is made using the private key of that domain so if you change the IP address there's no way you're going to be able to validate that signature with the public half of the key associated with that domain name I'm happy to work this out with you so that's how you if someone changed the IP address and gave you the same hash well it's not going to work they'd have to re-compute the hash and the only way to re-compute the hash would be to have that private key which no one has except that domain name owner it's going to be interesting to see when you have DNS hosting companies like GoDaddy and a lot of DNS and a lot of IPs how are they going to handle that when you're changing an IP once an hour or DNS fall over and there's other and content delivery networks for example they're continually changing these IP addresses I think that's something that Dan also has an example piece of software for as well but you can just do signatures on the fly or do something else creative but that's a really good point to me that I've had these systems in place that have dynamically changing things and now they have to implement DNSSEC government agencies for example hard to government agencies and they desperately are looking for solutions that would allow them to you know make this I think that's going to be a big problem with changing IPs thank you if you guys have more questions we'll be in the room 111 I would like to thank everyone for attending and thank you very much for coming and have fun


Look, we're scrappy. You're not still in the restaurant business if you don't have this inside you. This is a dream. You figure out how to make it happen. Whether that's getting the food on the plate or fixing the plumbing during service or putting the fire out on the roof while you're pouring a glass of wine in the other hand, that's what we do in this business, right? Yeah, so thank you so much for jumping on board into this interview on such a short notice. Mark, you guys own and run Canless out in Seattle. One of the best restaurants in the whole United States and in the world. You guys won multiple James Beard Foundation awards. Yeah, so I'm super, super excited to bring you on board. Can you just tell us a little bit more about what Canless is for the people that don't know what they are? Yeah, that was subjective whether or not we'd like to be one of the best restaurants in the world. I think that's what we're kind of set out to do. My grandfather set out to do in the very beginning, so he opened this in 1950. And my parents ran it for 30 years. And my brother and I took over like 15 years ago and have been doing it ever since. And so we were finding restaurants in Seattle or perched up on the hill. A really stunning view. I'm sorry that I didn't give that to you. But you should see like what's happening. I don't know if you can see out there. Wow, yes. That's what I'm looking at. Sorry that you have to look at me. But it is, you know, it's a restaurant that is about hospitality. It's about learning what that word means both internally and externally. It's about learning how to run a business around the concept of hospitality. And we take that word pretty seriously. So it looks like a fancy restaurant. It's a couple hundred dollars per person's reservation only. And yeah, there's been a lot of awards and a lot of accolades. But at its core, 115 people trying to figure out what it looks like to engage in, honestly, serving other people and doing it through food and through those types of things. You know, the wine and the things that we're all familiar with about the restaurant industry. Right. And actually, you know what? Something that I learned a little bit about you is that part of your family. Actually, you know what? A lot of your family members are from the military. And I just want to bring that up because it's super interesting. Yeah, it's crazy. We say it's like this restaurant is a tale of two grandfathers. My dad's dad, the one Peter Kanlos who started the restaurant, was really in so many ways ahead of his time to build this kind of a place, to do it with the standards and the foresight and the vision that he had. He's like a restaurant tour through and through. And the concept of team-styled service, the concept of tip pools, the concept of kitchens open in the dining room and cooking food, and a la minute or a la carte back when you're going to have a steak, you didn't take a tent, so you just like they brought out a big roast, you carved a table side, right? Like that's, we're talking about the 40s here. So anyway, my mom's dad was in the Marines for 39 years. And all my uncles were pilots. His father was in the Navy. And Brian and I ended up in the Air Force. We had to pay for college and sort of being that, I don't know, foundation, that like early, like young 20s foothold on leadership and that kind of thing. We just thought it'd be a good place to start. So yeah, we have a lot of, we got a lot of military in the family. We got a lot of restaurants in the family. And that's not sure we have one restaurant, but a lot of people who have been in that industry, and it goes all the way back to my great-grandfather in 1910 had a restaurant in California. So if you include them, we've been doing this for a long time. As a family. And yet I think so much of who we are today and kind of where we take our cues from comes from some of that training outside of the restaurant. Right, right, right. That's actually what part of the reason would you say that you're able to actually serve so many people. Actually, you were, I remember you talking about like, you're serving saying more than 1200 people per day through your drive-through. It's like somewhat drying back to the roots with how your grandparents actually served more than 3,000 people per day. That's crazy in the military, right? Yeah, he was in Hawaii during Pearl Harbor. So you know, in those days everybody came to help out. Everybody was a part of the effort and one way or the other. And he ends up, you know, talking smack on base about the food and kind of chef throws the towel. So you think you can do a better job than you can try it. And he did, right? So he took over all the food service of the USO back in during the war. And then after the war opened up that restaurant in Hawaii. But so, yeah, maybe at our roots is less fine dining and less tweezer food and more just sort of feeding the masses. I don't know, opening that drive-through felt to us a little bit like getting back to some of the soul. People talk about soul food, but like some of the soul service and the idea that you're just making what you do available to as many people as you possibly can. And that was fun for us. I was talking to Chef about it this morning. That way it was cool to be able to exercise that muscle on so much of this place. Yeah, it can be hard to get a reservation or just even it's like kind of scary to walk into a formal restaurant sometimes and try as we might to make it not feel that way. And so to really greet this sort of new season of life and of what the economy is doing with something as approachable as a burger, a $14 burger and some, you know, ripping hot, salty french fries and a handmade ice cream sandwich. I don't know, it was something that with us really resonated and just connected with that. So life-giving to see all these people coming through.  So that was a thousand burgers, about 400 veggie melts. But yeah, somewhere in the range of 14 or 1500 folks coming through and to see them in their cars and to see the life and the joy and the energy and the amount of like the little family dynamics or like the little, here comes this old couple who's made it out of their place to come get a burger, you know, get some fresh air. That was really cool. That was really special and uplifting and encouraging to kind of be received by the city in that way to be supported in that way. Great. On that note, let's rewind a little bit for our listeners or like our audience that actually don't really know about like, you know, how, what do you mean by drive-thru, right? Like, I don't think they truly understand like the overhaul that you need. Normally when you pull into Canless, you know, you're all fancy and I think we're the last restaurant on the planet with a dress code. But there's something cool about looking good and being respectful to others that way. And you get out of your car under the Port Cachère which is like a fancy French word for a thing that you drive under and our valet is like, take your car and whisk it away, right? And then we open the door and here's just sort of like, there's an arrival to Canless and the Royal Ontario is the architect built it into the building.  Anyway, fine dining was not what Seattle needed in the midst of the pandemic and as I went for a shutting down and so we opened a drive-thru. We just shut the restaurant down, we canceled a thousand reservations and we said, we're gonna just serve burgers. We're just gonna do like food for the masses and food that'll just kind of encourage your soul and also do it in a way that was with the new rules, the economy with social distancing and no contact and the whole goal here at Wilson was like, when we saw this thing coming we sat down on the table and said, hey, look, the game's not up. It's just the rules have changed and it's like they changed the rules on us in the middle of the game. So it was like calling a timeout saying, does anyone know, like the referee is not like the economy is different, like the referee is not doing, he's not blowing the whistle when we thought, right? Like everything has shifted, everyone knows the rules. We just kind of laid out everything we could at six feet and clubs and masks and no contact, right? And take out is okay. So if these are the new rules and these are the resources that we have, 115 employees, really capable kitchen, hey, we're on a busy road. Why not just open a drive-thru? So that's where that thing came from. It was this idea, let's start with what we're thankful for. We're thankful that we're all healthy. We have the opportunity to stay employed and do it in a safe way. We're thankful that we have a web designer guy who we can call up and create a website for this thing. And it was just from that place of, yeah, this is uncertain. These times, sure, we read it every first line of every article and certainty every time. But I think to lean back on the certainty of them, which is this is who we are as people. This is where we are today. Today, it's sunny outside in Seattle. So I got that. Today, this morning, this guy didn't fall. So I got that. I got an amazing staff who wanted to work. And so that's what we did. We changed from the fine dining restaurant to a drive-thru and a home delivery service. And, you know, we have a shipping container in our parking lot with pizza oven in it. So it's like, all right, we got one of those. So why don't we make bagels? One of my expeditors, an amazing baker from the Lower East Side Manhattan. She makes an amazing bagel. So I was like, hey, here's an opportunity to keep another 10 of our staff and employees. So we rolled each of those ideas at Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, just throughout the week. And in doing so, we're able to keep all of our employees working. So one thing that I really want people to understand is actually before we get there, how much is an average ticket price for your fine dining experience? Like in general circumstances? So we do like a four-course meal. Four. It ends up being like six. But it's $135 for food. Okay. So you went from $130 worth of average ticket price down to $15 burgers. 14. 14. It should have been 15. Yeah. They should have probably been 18.  Like making it as efficient as we can. And here it was like, does anyone know what we're doing? No. Okay. No one knows what we're doing. Cool. How much should a burger be? I don't know. $14 bill, good. As it turns out, $14 was too cheap. We did not make money in the first week. We lost money. My brother, who I run the company with, had just had a baby. And so he was out that week, you know, and I'm like, I'm not the numbers guy at all. Like I'm like, hey, it's a good idea. This will be fun. And he's the guy who's like, that's not going to make any money. Like you realize we're just going to bleed cash. So we did not make any money in the first week, but to be honest, I don't, or the second week, I don't think, I don't think this is a time about making money. And a canvas profit has, is never been a strategy. It is a rule to the game. It's something that where we say, look, the rules are, oh, you got to make enough so that we can all pay the bills. You can keep the lights on. But that rule can change. You could make enough so you can put some in the bank for later, or you could make not enough and have to use some savings right now. That's a, that's a moving target. Just like anything, you kick the ball out of bounds. Well, the other team gets a throw in, but just because you kick the ball out of bounds doesn't mean that the soccer game is over. Right. And just because you lose money for a week or for a year doesn't mean that it's over. It just means you need to start paying attention to that rule a bit more. So I think this is a season right now where companies big and small need to focus on doing the right thing and putting profit second. And maybe that's a good wake-up call for all of us. That's not a pandemic thing, necessarily. That's a great strategy for business, regardless of what the economy is. So anyway, we should have raised the prices. But yeah, we went from $135 a person to $14. That's something that I, the reason why I brought that up is that I want our audience and our viewers to actually understand that you, your business has been in the making for decades to adhere to that level of quality. And all of a sudden you were able to shift and adapt to the change of rules just on the dime with over 115 people. You know, that's super, super impressive because of the fact that all these operations, all these systems that you created, all these manuals, handbooks, and SOPs of creating things. And all of a sudden you just switched the dime and you just changed everything. It's like, you know, trying to change this huge cruise ship and turning 90 degrees on a dime. That's very, very impressive. And something that is super inspirational for our listeners is because of the fact that, you know, a lot of our small business owners, they're so soaked up in the noise of what's happening in the world.  And they're not really paying attention to their own game. They're not really paying to what they can do in their control. So true. Right? So true. And for you, it's something that's super inspiring because like, I'm like, wow, you guys were changing on the dime and leading up. No, Wilson, I think that's, you're making such an important point. And right now, look, the temptation, of course, like I crawl into bed, I get on my phone and I'm like, hi, redolter.  This is a time where we need to be aware. We need to be educated. We can't put our heads in the sand right now. And then you see people doing that. They're paying the consequences, sure. But at the same time, you know, I think you could stay educated and aware in about 20 to 30 hard-hitting minutes. And after that, I think you, I think we're, we're feeding anxiety. And so, you know, I just, we've made a discipline around here to not start the day that way, to start the day being thankful for what we have and for accounting the resources that we do have, not being scared of the things that we don't. Yes, there's a lot of uncertainty. I don't know if I'm going to be able to buy toilet paper or buy food or if there'll be a doctor if I go to the hospital. All different level ranges of uncertainty. And that's important to be aware of. I don't want to minimize that in any way. But at the same time, just as important, maybe even more so, it's to be aware of the certainty, right? And so the certainty says, well, I'm sheltering in place in my house, which is a really safe place. I'm healthy today, which is something to be thankful for. In fact, counting our blessings is really a healthy process.  And while this is hard all around us, there's also good happening. How can we focus on some of the strategic standpoint for your business? You can do the exact same thing. You can say, this is what we have at the company. This is what we can do. And no, we don't know the future. We don't have a crystal ball. No one's looking way out there and saying, and everybody wants to know, what's the future of restaurants? It's kind of a silly question right now. It says a little bit of a tone deaf question. And I think a more important one is, what can we do today? How can I encourage the people immediately around me, the person on my left, the woman on my right, like, hey guys, what are we going to do today? Let's not worry about tomorrow. That's never been a good strategy, right? It's not that we ignore it, but right now I don't think that should be the primary focus. Right. And one analogy that you use, which really, really resonated with me, was like, hey, you know what? It's not time to play defense. I don't want to hunker down and bunker down. You know what? Just cry under a bed and just be like, oh my God, stimulus package. Well, we do want to do that, but it's probably not a good strategy, right? Like I feel that way, right? Right. And when this thing first hit, look, Seattle was a little bit taken aback. Like we had the wind knocked out of us, right? And the feeling was hunkered down. The feeling was protect.  Kind of do this. Pull the covers where you guard. I think what we realized was, while some amount of protection is important or is responsible or is wise, that overreaction is probably taking it too far. And so how do we keep, how do we hold both at the same time? How do we live in the tension of wanting to just completely retreat, hide under the covers and hum something to ourselves and wait for the bad monster to go away, right? That's within all of us. And at the same time, at some point, you got to peek around the corner and you got to look into the darkness. You got to peer into that void of unknown and you have to courageously move forward. That is human. It is as human to courageously do that as it is to cower in fear. That's what's so dynamic about us as the species. And so I think to ask yourself the question, what does it look like to endure? What does it look like to normalize this? What does it look like to embrace the loss that we're experiencing right now in the midst of recognizing that our loss is not as great as someone else's loss right now? Those are hard things to do. Those are courageous things to do. And I think that's what we're being called into. That's the middle of any people is to say, courage isn't the absence of fear. It's doing what you're convicted to do in the midst of fear. And yes, there's one lesson out of this, maybe that I'm learning in this whole thing, is I think this is an opportunity introspectively to say what kind of person do I want to be and here's an opportunity to do that, right? Everyone wants to say, well, at the end of this thing, it's all going to be different. But that isn't necessarily true unless the difference comes from each of us internally. If I'm waiting for you to change because of this thing, and you're waiting for me to change, or I point at President Trump, which I think is tempting, or he points at someone else, which is very tempting for him.  That's just not true. This is an opportunity for each of us right now to say, look, I'm going to honor the suffering and the brokenness and the pain of this experience. The forced stillness, Tim Keller says, I'm going to honor the fact that we've been thrust into this thing against our will by letting it change me. Well, then there's a great place to start, right? And so that, it's a company, Ben and I, my brother and I, that's been our strategy as a team, and I think that's been our strategy as a company, is to let it change us, let it affect us. And then when it all washes over us, what is left standing? What do we still have? And let's move with that. Let's go with that. And anyway, I don't even know what your question was. No, actually, you know what? One point that I do want to make is, a lot of people think that, you know what?   You guys don't have fears that you guys are like, oh, so far untouchable and stuff like that. You guys don't have these negative thoughts. But the fact that you are actually able to tell us firsthand that, yo, like I suffer through the same thing, yet it's knowing the fact that I have the fears by having the courage to take that stuff, to make that stuff. And that's precisely the essence of this whole interview is to encourage people. Isn't that the thing? Like, we don't know what we're doing. And we're like, oh, how'd you make the pivot? You know, like, pivot. My God, like, this isn't a pivot so much as this is looking inside and saying, is there something that we can do? And that's a very, like, a radically different question. This was terrifying for us. This was our team sitting on the table afraid and uncertain and wondering. Yeah, this was not like, hey, we've got an action plan. We know what to do. Please tell us how much is your payroll per month? You know, let's tell our audience. Please tell us. Yeah, so, you know, I think we spend somewhere in the range of $450,000 a month in labor. So we're talking about $450,000, guys, right? Something like that. Per month. That's just labor. Yeah, 400 to 500 kind of depending on what's going on and let alone our mortgage, let alone all the other six costs. So we're standalone property with a large bank loan on how to pay for that property. And we have, yeah, like any restaurant, this is a day-to-day month-to-month type of operation. So, but, you know, again, those are rules to the game. The rule says I need to pay the mortgage. The rule says I could lay the people off and the state could pay them unemployment. But we also know if they keep working, then they get the benefits of a much better sort of path for them, right? And not to mention the burden that you're not placed on. So I think in this case, if you have the opportunity to keep any some trickle of the economy flowing, A, that's a privilege. B, that's a responsibility. If you can do it safely, if you can do it within the new rules of operating, just be really sensitive to what that is right now. Right. But know what we were doing. And this was scary. Okay, so it's so many mistakes. I can't even tell you like, like the pricing structure is just the beginning of a list of things that were completely broken about, but when we opened the first day, there was an hour and an hour and a half traffic jam around the restaurant. So the whole, the whole idea here is let's, let's serve our neighbors, right? And then suddenly we're like shut down traffic. And so there was that, there was like, we didn't know how to. And so we had eight traffic people in the streets, which is one of the reasons, you know, you just can't afford to have fine dining people, marshaling traffic and $14 burgers. We're also grinding all of our dry aged meat into those burgers and hand making farms. And so, but again, the point wasn't, oh man, let's not take a step forward because we don't know if that step is safe. I think it's as risky to do nothing as it is to do something. Right. And so this is a really dynamic team. We can look at the numbers. We can say, cool. Okay, look, let's make this, this, this and this change. Yesterday, I rewrote the website that we created four weeks ago for the fourth time because it was like, well, that doesn't work anymore. Yesterday we reprogram the rest of the same website we built a month ago for the third time. Like we keep refining these things. And honestly, it's what the people want to do. It's what they were born to do. It's because there's a race cars. Let them drive. Like let them go.  You want to do something. There is something you can do. And we're not medical professionals. I'm not going to come up with a vaccine. But if I can encourage somebody, that's a really powerful thing. I can feed them a meal.   I'm thankful that we have our health. I'm thankful that we have this table and this meal before us. Like there's a reason to raise a glass. And it isn't disrespectful of the brokenness. I think that is actually respectful. That's an embracing of where we are society. I think it's an important thing to do right now. Can you tell us? Okay. That's freaking amazing. Okay. Let's give somewhere like meat and actionable items for our, the people who are actually in the same shoes. But let's say what can they do?  I think like some of your military experience definitely comes into play when, when, you know, morale was like super low. And I think that's what's happening with a lot of different companies. Everyone's kind of scared. How did you whip everyone back and like, Hey, let's get going. No, no, no, no. It's exactly the opposite. Okay. When we hire someone here, the only real question that matters is how we're working at Canvas help you become who you're hoping to become. Think about that for a second. I'm assuming you can use a knife. I'm assuming you can carry a tray or if not, I'm assuming we can train you.  I want to know how will working here help you become the kind of man or woman that you've always wanted to become. It's a very different question than what can you do for me and what can I do for you? Okay. So think of yourself as having a room full of people who are all hoping to become something, make something of themselves. That is the truth of every company on the planet. We all have that within us. Right. We all have those values that matter to us. All Canvas did was unleash them, unlock them and let them come out. All we said was, hey, there may be a road through this and it might look like a drive through and a bagel shed pop up. It might look like home delivery. It might look like you guys driving boxes over town or building CSA boxes in a tiki hut in a parking house what's currently happening. I don't know what it's going to look like, but there's one avenue through and if you want in, you can have it. And they, they bring the motivation.  Right. All we're doing as leaders is allowing them to become the kind of people they want to become. And in this situation, you're allowing them a chance to ensure you're allowing them a chance to take all that they've been given and put it into action. The feeling in this restaurant after we made this announcement was like, we have something to do and we're capable of doing it. It felt as if 70 years of fine dining was training grounds for this moment. And when everyone says, how did you change like this? How did you pivot Canvas away from what you do? I would say we're doing Canvas better today than we've ever done it. Remember fine dining is the service of other people. How do I care for you with food? Who cares what that bite looks like?  And maybe at another time it'll look like really thought through curated and otherwise precious, delicate art on the table. I don't know. Right. The point isn't and never was about the food. It never was about a bottle of wine. It was always about the guest. It was always about, is there a way to serve somebody? In the old days, we had to find any restaurant. And today, or in July, I don't know what we're making tonight actually. It's about that. And so I feel in so many ways we're doing exactly what we've always done. And all we did was allow the staff to keep doing what was in their hearts. With the same values. These are the same people. What they're producing looks different. But so. That's a huge testament to the culture that you've built. And when tides out you can see who doesn't have hands on that kind of theory where you've actually done so well in building the right culture for your business which allows you to be able to turn on the time and allows you to actually build the infrastructure where you are just providing an empowerment and empowering your staff and these people to live their dreams to unleash the power. So that's the real testament of the importance of the culture that you're able to build. So thank you for that. Can you illustrate actually when you were telling, just tell us that story when you told your staff. That story of how it went. It was a little terrifying. We hadn't told the media yet. We have a practice here of letting our staff know pretty much long before. And then just kind of holding those things close hold. We got to work through it as a team. And we need to sort of use them as a sounding board sometimes. So we met as an executive team a few days before and we said isn't it true that this might be a good path for us to take. And then just got the whole team together and said guys this is what we're thinking about. And it was, yeah, I would say before that meeting in the restaurant, there was a little bit of a feeling of either helplessness or hopelessness or some sort of like, oh man. And then afterwards there was this feeling of, we've got a job to do. Put me in coach. And I remember 9-11, I was in the military at the time and we were part of a group of people that did helicopters and stuff. And so anyway, in that period, the reaction at least in this country was like, was so like, whoa, what do we do? But in the military it was very different. The reaction was we know exactly what to do. We've been training for this. And I think it reminded that meeting here in the restaurant reminded me of 2001 of being in the military. It was like, hey, we know exactly what to do. And I think there was a sentiment of like, put me in. Like I want to be a part of the solution here. And I also just think it can be a real blessing personally to be the bearer of good news. And when you get to bring good news to someone, when you get to say an encouraging word, you get to, we all know this at Christmas time. Why is it better to give than to receive or whatever the expression is like, yup. Like it's life-giving. It is good for the bones to be the bearer of good news, right? Like, and so we got to be a part of that. And so how did your team receive that? By and large, really well. And, you know, we have people who are more on sort of immunocompromised or maybe older or all of us are looking at the risk and all of us are processing this differently. We need to. Every one of us on the planet is thinking about this. And it affects all of us differently. And so I think it's really important A to make it voluntary and B to really have options, like true options for those that are like, I don't know if that works. It doesn't work for me. So we've been moving people around and taking and spreading out the kitchen and using parts of our dining room for staging. I have piano players driving delivery. We have people in the kitchen working outside in the parking lot because for the more air and we took one of the members of the office and gave him one of the private dining rooms.  It's like, I don't know, we'll figure it out. And I feel like restaurants, if there's one thing that unites all of us, there's many things. But look, we're scrappy. Like, you're not still in the restaurant business.  Whether that's getting the food on the plate or fixing the plumbing during service or putting a fire out on the roof while you're pouring a glass of wine in the other hand, it's like, that's what we do in this business, right? I put out four fires during service in the company. And like, it's what we do. And so in a certain sense, to the industry that's been hit so hard, our industry, I would also, I would say, yes, it's true. And also what's true is that we are resilient. Also what's true is that in the business world, we're special ops. We're the guys that can make it true. We're the guys that can say, yep, any time, any place. We got this. We can pull it off. We're the ones that work the weekends, work the crazy hours. We're the ones that go into battle when everyone else needs restoration. We're the ones giving it to them. And so we'll make it true. We will. And it's going to be hard. And it's going to take courage. But we will make it true. I think there's a way to do that. Is there, can you enlighten us on your thought process on creating the strategies? Because I know like you've actually created so many different streams of arms, like from your agricultural boxes, your family meals, your bottle service, drive-through, bagel sheds. These are like five different initiatives that you're able to create just to fulfill your payroll. So for the people that, you know, how should they go about thinking about a strategy that goes ahead with, hey, you know what, I can leverage off what I have. What would your lesson be? Yeah, I think the, let's see. Yeah, those are all a little bit far afield from it. So a couple of just practical things. One, I think delivery is totally doable. But we're not delivering canless. We were delivering family meal. I think we called it family meal on the website. We called it family meal to everyone because that's what we were cooking. We were still cooking the family meal for our staff. And it was like, how hard is it to put this in a container and deliver it? It's not hard. And so I'm not delivering canless level fine dining, contemporary Northwest cuisine. That doesn't package up in a box. It doesn't last. You can't put a souffle in a car and drive it down the street. It doesn't work, right? But an inch a lot of you can. In fact, an inch a lot almost wants to do that, right? Like it's amazing the next day. And so this is, these are meals that our staff knows how to crush because they've been doing it for the, they've been doing it for one another. These are their own mother's recipes. These are things they've learned in other restaurants. And so, and it's not a menu. It's not like we're giving you options. Look, when we were kids, mom's like, all right, time for dinner. And you're like, okay. I wasn't like, what's the menu? I was just happy to have, you know, when you're a teenager, they used to eat everything. And if there's nothing to eat at the table, right? So it's like, cool meatballs. I'm in. Right. And so we're just serving one thing a night. And I would encourage restaurants to keep it simple. Like this is like, you don't have to get fancy with it. It's like one dish that you just do and crush it in every, almost every meal we've sent home is a canless salad. Why a canless salad? It travels well. It's super simple. We do it and it makes everybody happy. It's like crack to the day. And you know what you need right now? A little bit of happiness. So like, give the people the canless salad, give them crack. Like, why not? Right. It's not creative. It's not necessarily. I don't feel like I'm like furthering my brand and showing Seattle how creative, like, nope. Give the people what they want. They want like a, they want simple heartwarming soul food. Right. And so anyway, we do one meal a night. We sell them in advance, which is not hard to do. There's software out. We created software with talk actually back when the whole thing started at the reservation company. And they've made it widely available. And so any restaurant can download that thing, sign up for it. And so we're selling a week in advance. So that allows us to order really precisely. It allows us to make exactly what we need and not have any waste. It allows you to route optimized delivery and have a couple of days to do so, which allows you to schedule your staff. So we're not using a delivery service. Even though a lot of them have made this more financially viable for the restaurant industry. I need to employ as many people as I can. So servers who took food from the kitchen to the dining room can take food from the kitchen to your doorbell. Right. It's not that hard and there's technology to do that. So we use an app called route. Which just makes it super easy. So my servers don't even, they're quarantined in their homes. They get in their cars. They show up in our parking lot. They pay them for the first 20 minutes to sanitize their entire car. Then they never get out of it. They pull through the same port to share a different team, an ex-viting and boxing team that has the entire dining room to work in. Boxes the food, walks it outside, sets in the backseat of a service car. Wow. From that point forward, the address and everything is on their phone. Away they go. When they get outside, they text you and say, Hey, I'm outside. I'm going to leave on your doorstep. If they want, they can put a glove on, ring a doorbell and walk away. That's it. So from a safety standpoint, it's super safe. It's really easy. And there's, there's technology that kind of makes that thing happen. So anyway, I, yeah, I recommend using technology. It's really going to help those talk and route. Tific have been lifesavers for us. I recommend just being one menu item or at least making your, your menu super simple. I, you know, we shut down our normal website, like just keep your messaging really clean and keep it really direct and straightforward. We use an 18% service and delivery fee. I think that's really fair. And so we don't get all fancy with how much delivery cost. We just say like, this is what it is. And if you're at one mile away, thank you for paying what is probably way too much for a service and delivery fee. Like I just think there's a lot of good will going around right now and people understand what it takes to kind of stand up. So yeah, keep it simple and yummy. That's really, really good advice.  What you're saying is like, Hey, delivery is a must. We're going to be, you created menu items that are good for delivery. I think that's what a lot of people miss because like, for example, you wouldn't want to serve fries.  Nobody wants to call French fries. Exactly. Right. So that's why you create a special menu, keep it simple and easy, use technology, leverage the technology. You know, it doesn't matter how, how out of date you are. Things are super easy, super intuitive. Just use the technology.  Like just keep the messaging simple. And that itself just allows you to be able to, you know, take that one step forward, one step on top of the other. So these are really good nuggets that you're sharing with us. Thank you. I'm going to leave in the section, the comment section below description of the two apps that you recommended. Do you have any kind of final remarks for our audience?  I think, I think right now it might, it might feel weird or guilt inducing to think of silver lining. But I find a lot of hope in finding the good in today. Um, by, by celebrating the good of today, it, it encourages me, it uplifting. It helps me face, um, the hard and it helps me hold both. Um, and I think, um, there are some remarkable silver linings coming out of this yesterday. I read Alaska, I got rid of the middle seat. If no other reason, man, if we can get rid of middle seats on airplanes, that is worth like popping a lot of champagne folks. Like, and even if it's just for right now, like, okay, I get it. But there are other ones, maybe less obvious than getting rid of the middle seat. I think what's happening right now is that we are remembering, we are being reminded how alike we all are. That's what's happening. Um, how similar we actually are. And in a former and former days when our petty differences took center stage and we let them distract us. Now, um, in ways that none of us would have asked for or invited, we have been reminded that there are more important things to pay attention to. And I think tonight that means looking at the people who you live with or calling someone if you live alone and celebrating them and saying, thank you. I think tonight that looks like looking in the mirror and saying, what's one thing I want to change tomorrow? Because I got all day to do it because a lot of us aren't working and there's nowhere to go. And, um, and if we're all doing that, then, and if we're all encouraging one another, and if we're all speaking about the good that's happening inside of us, well, then maybe we'll have a little more, um, energy to face the darkness and a little more light to fight that way. And I think that is what you want to be doing. Take out delivery with whatever we're doing. It isn't about that. It's about so much more. So I would, yeah, I don't know. That says it right. No, that's something like that. I love that. You know what? Always, always like leave with a really positive no. And I love that about you.  And it's just, I think that's the essence of being happy in life too. You know, giving thanks. And that's something that I start. You know what? There's something really cool I want to share with you. Um, giving thanks, you know, um, just a quick side note. Um, is that I give thanks every day as well, which I can't find, but I'll send it to you. It's somewhere in my drawer. Okay. Um, but yeah. So for the people and for the listeners that want to follow you, um, the countless and, or you personally, what's, what's the handle? Ah, social media. We're at can last, I think. I don't know. I'm never. My brother's going to kill me right now. I think we have a Twitter feed. I know we do. And most of the stuff we do is on Instagram. Cool. I'll leave it in the description below to make sure your brother doesn't kill you. But thank you so much. Mark. Actually I found my, my, my gratitude. What is it? You keeping a journal of things. Yeah. Yeah. Every single day. I love it. No way. Look at that thing. Guys. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. Look at that thing. Thank you. Thank you. I'm a total preacher. I, I connect with you. I resonate so much because everything is, is, is so true. I, I love it. Thank you. And so much of who we are, we were given it. It was a gift to us. So just to be, to put that in perspective, that's certainly been true of my life. Hey, thanks for having me on. And thanks for what we're doing. And a hundred percent. See you well up there. Wilson. It's great to, um, it's great to be a part of this. So cheers.


Welcome to Toffy TV, it is the Everton News Daily. Frank Llanpard has given his pre-match press conference ahead of Everton's trip to Arsenal at the Emirates on Sunday, a four o'clock kickoff in a game that now doesn't really matter. And it is a great feeling. Obviously Everton will want to win, you know, and if they can finish above Southampton, it's another £2 million in the kitty, but the importance of whether we survive or not is gone, that's gone. We are safe and it's great. Frank Llanpard said he needs to make the squad more balanced and more robust next season when asked about whether the plans start now in terms of recruitment. He said he's got a really good relationship with Kevin Thelwell. They speak regularly and he's given his opinion on how he can improve things. Everton are looking at a number of players this season. Obviously players will be going out the door as well. There's conversations with players to be had. You know, there's lots of links, linking with Charleston with the move away, linking Dominic Calvert-Lewin, Jordan Pickford with moves away from Gooderson Park. And while probably one of those will move on, I imagine, to help Everton's FFP situation, I think Frank Llanpard will want to keep his key players and if Everton can then go out and bring in better players as well, not necessarily better but younger mobile players on cheaper contracts, then they'll try to do that and try to make this squad a much more fit for purpose. Obviously players will be dropping off. Fabian Delf may be going, well, he should be going.  Guilty Sigarton gone, John Joe Kenny no decision on him yet. So there are players going out the door which will obviously ease the wage bill. Concerns or that money can be put back in. But there's other players who will probably be moved on as well this summer and need to be really, they're at the end of their cycle with Evan and that's what we need to do, we need to balance and make this squad much more competitive and mobile. Frank Llanpard also said we need less injuries next season, we have to improve the whole picture around the injuries, why are some players getting them, keep your key players fit and all of this stuff you can look at now because obviously the pressure of staying up has been lifted and it's plans, full plans ahead for next season. But Evan do still have that game on Sunday and Frank Llanpard said Evan will play without pressure on Sunday but will go full pelt at Arsenal. He said he's very aware of obviously the Arsenal and Tottenham situation going for that fourth place. Evan will be giving it everything he can but did say that there will be a couple of players playing who haven't been given the chance to expect that will be deadly for one. It will start his first game for Evan and he's only been used as a sub and I just wonder if someone like Rich Welsh maybe might get a go at Isaac Price, someone like that. It's going to be interesting to see what kind of team he goes with at the weekend. Dominic Calvert-Lewin was speaking after Evan's huge win last night and said that his winning goal was the best goal he scored in his career. Said it was incredible the emotion and the importance of the goals that he's never felt anything like it. He's obviously delighted we're getting over the line. It's been a tough season for Dominic Calvert-Lewin injuries come back and there's never quite got fit but you know it's finished the last two home games with goals a goal in each game, Brentford and of course the winner last night which was a fantastic dive and header. Did say the fans have made a huge difference said he's never experienced anything like that and the atmosphere was just unbelievable. He posted a fantastic picture of himself in the middle of all the supporters at the end when all the fans are on the picture. Brilliant and hugely hugely important goal from Dominic Calvert-Lewin. Siang Towson who I mentioned before is out of contract in the summer at Everton next month and says he's had offers from MLS teams clubs in the United Arab Emirates but he wants to stay in Europe and fight for trophies at a top European club. He's out of contract this summer of course Beshig Tas is former club that they tried to sign him in January but Towson wanted to remain at Godderson but now he is out of contract next month and apparently Beshig Tas have cooled their interest in him so Siang looking for another club. And finally Leeds and Burnley have written to the Premier League to complain about Everton's FFP situation that's come out today they wrote to the Premier League on the 13th of May that was last Friday both clubs unhappy with Everton's losses Everton had attributed a lot of them down to Covid but Everton have released a statement today saying that they fully complied with the Premier League they're quite happy with their situation quite comfortable with it and it's up to the club as they want to try to shoot the league but as far as Everton are concerned there is nothing to answer to the Premier League have accepted it it's Everton have been working within the Premier League directives in the last 12 months have only been allowed to sign players on the Premier League say so so the Premier League fully aware of Everton's business and the money and everything so the Blues have got nothing to worry about there you go that's it for the news daily make sure you give the video a thumbs up subscribe if you haven't check out the Arsenal Everton preview which will be out later and if you want more videos including daily live videos join us on Patreon


Richard says, does Microsoft have a tool to migrate data between SharePoint online sites in the same tenant? They do, but I think it depends what you mean by data. In SharePoint, it's probably going to take the form of a file in which case moving files from site to site or even library to library, definitely possible out of the box. Right in the user experience, there's the copy to and move to features. You'd probably use them as a one-off basis for a single file, but you can do them in both. I'm sure there's limits on how much you can move. It's not the fastest migration service because it's not a migration service, but it is definitely possible to move files around different sites or different teams within the same experience. Even one drive to SharePoint, one drive to Teams, all of that's possible. It uses all the same file experiences across those apps and services. Second part of data that you could be talking about is the list, Microsoft list, SharePoint list data. Now, that's a little different. You can't use those copy move to functions anymore. Then as I understand it, with the out-of-the-box tools, it would be possibly connecting your list to Excel or exporting your list to Excel and then pointing it to a new destination list. That's kind of a clues you. If you're comfortable using the Power Platform, you can use Power Automate to start moving the data around. But that might be a handy-handed tool for you, and it depends on your comfort level, and it depends on the type of data that you want to move. Of course, there's plenty of third-party tools out there. Oh, I totally forgot. Microsoft does have a migration tool that people use to do stuff like file migrations off from Op-Prem or getting off of older legacy versions of SharePoint. What is that thing called the SharePoint migration tool? Formally known as Mover. Formally known as Mover.io, that does not do site-to-site within the same tenant. I think it supports Cloud to Cloud from one tenant to another tenant, but don't quote me on that. Yeah. The other thing I think of too is, again, it goes back to your question. It's like, what do you mean by moving data between sites? Because if you're trying to do a site-by-site, you're trying to do a reorg or something, again, then you're looking at really a third-party migration tool, and there are a number that are out there that can help you with that process. Yeah. When I move data between sites all the time, it's called move file. That's it. So maybe it's a simple, yes, that's the answer that Richard's looking for, but again, depending on what you're actually trying to move. I totally forgot. Probably all of us have the OneDrive Sync client on our computers, and that's another way that you can facilitate file moves around. Now, the downside to doing a lot of these is that you lose the version history. You lose the modified by the modified date on a lot of those types of transactions, and that's where third-party tools shine. So Richard, if you have the requirement to maintain version history, well, I would probably consider a third-party tool that will maintain that for you. If you don't and you just need to get over the latest copy, use that move to copy to on a one-off basis. If you have larger things in bulk, well, consider that OneDrive Sync client, and if you're back to list data, well then for me because I'm comfortable with it, I'd be going to Power Automate all day. One other wrinkle in this, are you looking to do it centrally? Have an admin go and do this, or are you looking for end-users to move this content? So again, that's another thing to consider. I mean, you have all the options we just described that are still true, but if you can have end-users do this and move the data, and you don't have to worry about the version history of that, then you've got the built-in capability in the platform. But yeah, so just another thing to, sorry, Richard, to wreck your day by making it more complex, but depends on what you're asking for. We should have started this one by saying it depends, shouldn't we? We could have just- Well, I couldn't any of these that we've done, we could start by saying it depends. Yeah. Most popular answer ever, but too much. You can make a lot of money if we just figured out it depends matrix, that would just guide people through all of these different scenarios. The worst consultant ever say it depends and then you provide the screen with the tip amounts. Yes. Please tip. Yeah. So if Richard was over that 20 percent tip point, I would say if you had more than a dozen files, I probably wouldn't use the move to copy too. You want to go 25 percent Richard, then I'll help you do power-automate.