Felly, tensiwch yn y cyhoeddwyr i ddeddiw'r ddechrau i roeddaf wailion i Gwyrdd Rhyw Gwerth trouvéadau i gwylltu'r ddawn i āll. Danipeiais y pwylliannau o hynny i gyd ar gyfer wil cynnig. Felly, i gyd, rydyn ni'n gwybod i'r teimlo'r ffordd, i gyd ymgyrchdeniaeth, i ddechrau i gyd yn ddaergyn, i gyd yn fwy o ddechrau i gyd angen i ganfodol, i gyd yn gwylltech o edrych ar gyfer wrth gyrraedd ymgyrchdaeth, i gyd yn gwir yw'r gwir. a'r oficials, John Spears, senior police adviser a'Nemily William Boystone, soliciter from the Scottish Government and invite the minister to make an opening statement. Thank you for making time today to consider the draft SSI, the Plant Health Import Inspection Fees Scotland amendment regulations 2024. The 2024 regulations are being made to amend Scottish legislation in the field of plant health to legislate for fees for new checks on medium-risk plants and plant products imported into Scotland as set out in the border target operating model published by the UK Government in August of 2023. Of course, the border target operating model is only required as a result of Brexit. The Scottish Government continues to believe that the best trading relationships for Scotland will be found as an EU member state. The Scottish Government has also been frustrated with how the UK Government is developing the border target operating model in relation to devolved issues. I appreciate that last minute decisions by the UK Government have meant the committee not having the agreed notice period to consider some UK statutory instruments, including the one related to the Scottish statutory instrument before you today. Where, within our control, we will always endeavour to ensure the committee has sufficient consideration time as we have with this Scottish statutory instrument. The SSI is linked to the UK statutory instrument, the Plant Health Fees England and Official Controls frequency of checks amendments regulations 2024, which was considered by the committee at its meeting on 28 February. The committee agreed with the Scottish Government's decision to consent to the provisions being included in UK subordinate legislation, which was very welcome. The UKSI makes changes to the official controls regulations to reflect the introduction of plant health checks on certain medium-risk goods, along with similar amendments to the official controls plant health frequency of checks regulations, which introduced the current risk-targeted inspection regime. Those 2024 regulations now introduce the Scottish import inspection fees corresponding to the fees for England set out in the UKSI. The 2024 regulations also provide that, for a period currently up until the 30 October 2024, no fees are payable for checks relating to medium-risk fruit and vegetables from EU member states in Switzerland and, similarly, for any goods from these countries in Lichtenstein entering via a west coast port. That is in line with the UKSI and the border target operating model. The fees in the 2024 regulations are in line with the Scottish Government's approach to achieve full-cost recovery of service delivery from businesses using those services. Those regulations are therefore necessary and appropriate, and my officials and I are happy to take any questions from the committee. Thank you for setting out the opening remarks. I would like to ask you a question regarding the consultation where two of Scottish businesses gave some feedback, only three responded in total. I cannot find the link to the consultation responses themselves. I wonder if you will be able to talk us through the two Scottish businesses that express no objections to the proposals and what they set out, if you have that information, please. I will hand over to John for a bit more detail on that. I thank you for the question. I think that the two businesses involved were horticultural businesses. I do not have the details to hand, but I can certainly provide that for you. That would be very helpful, thank you. From the comments that Ms Laeter made, it seems as though those businesses have no objections to the proposal. It is just trying to balance the argument that was just given to the committee there. Just for some clarity, the consultation was undertaken by DEFRA, so the response in the comment period was 10 weeks. Three responses were received. Is that in total across the whole of the United Kingdom and off those three, two were Scottish, or there were three Scottish responses, two of which raised no concerns? I am a bit confused. Hi, there were three responses, two were Scottish, and the two Scottish businesses had no concerns. The third response was unrelated to the consultation. Any further questions? I do not know how many responses you would have expected to the consultation. Given that businesses are going to have to comply with certain requirements, how are those changes that businesses are going to have to comply with? How are they going to be made aware of them? I will give a summary and then hand to John. This is all part of the progress of Brexit putting in the border controls. There have been controls for high-risk goods, and now this is the controls being put at the borders for medium-risk goods. John, can you give us in detail about how the businesses find out? There has been on-going engagement with all the kind of horticultural businesses, plant-based businesses, to keep them informed of the development of the border target operating model and the requirements, and also each new phase, as has been introduced. For example, on 31 January, there was the first phase of the border target operating model, where FITIS and a certificate of plant health certification were required for medium-risk goods coming in from the EU, so there was an engagement process prior to that, to make sure that businesses were aware and likewise for the changes that are coming in at the end of April. That is fine, thank you. I want to just to clarify, so this committee has dealt with numerous transitional SSIs to look at the import restrictions and whatever. That is all part of the new Windsor framework, the new deal that was agreed at the end of last year, is that correct? We should not see any new instruments coming in that replace the interim measures, is that correct? The border target operating model and the Windsor framework are two different things, but I can hand over to John to get into the weeds of it. The border target operating model is separate to the Windsor framework. The border target operating model is with EU trade in the rest of the world, whereas the Windsor framework is for trade with Northern Ireland. If I may convener, you may know that I am the convener of the Horticulture and Gardening CPG, and the secretary is the Horticultural Trades Association. One of the areas that was brought up at the last meeting last week was around ensuring that we have a very tight biosecurity to ensure that we are protecting our country from non-native species, etc. I think that it is slightly different to what we are looking at here, but it is related. I think that it would be great if we could have some reassurance around that that will be protected and that there will be a seamless transition or an efficient transition or something that is going to be like for like so that we do not have this situation where we are bringing in species that are not welcome to Scotland. I absolutely share the member's concerns. That is exactly what the transition represented by the border target operating model represents. Of course, when we were a full member of the EU state, we were able to trade goods without border checks. In the interim period since Brexit, of course, trading with EUs has been relatively low risk because our regulations and requirements were in line. As we diverged inevitably over time, however much we would like to stay in alignment, and of course now that we are outside the EU, we must have these border controls. This is exactly why these border controls are being brought in, because it has been relatively low risk, but over time that risk could increase. There is a risk-based approach being taken where high-risk goods have already been being checked both by documentary means and by physical inspections and so on, but they are being done at their place of destination, not at the border. Those high-risk goods are already being tracked and managed. This is now bringing medium-risk goods into the regime, albeit with various exemptions in that which, of course, we are happy to go into, so that we can start a phased roll-out of the border controls. I do not know if John wants to add any more detail. I think that the minister summarised that very well. I am just checking whether Eleanor Wittam was requesting to come in. Eleanor, no. Okay, thanks. No further questions. We will now move on to the formal consideration of the motion to approve that the Rural Affairs and Islands Committee recommends that the Plant, Health and Import Inspection Feeds Scotland amendment regulations 2024 be approved. I can ask the cabinet secretary to move the motion. Thank you. Does any member wish to debate the motion? No. Is the committee content to recommend approval of the instrument? Thank you. Finally, is the committee content to delegate authority to me to sign off on our report on the instrument? That completes our consideration of the instrument. Thank you, minister and your officials for attending. I will now briefly suspend the meeting to allow witnesses to change over. Our third item of business this morning is consideration of petition PE1758, which calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Government to end greyhound racing in Scotland. Before we proceed, I wish to make members and all those with an interest in this petition aware that the evidence session that was scheduled for next week with the Minister for Agriculture and Connectivity has been rescheduled to the 22nd of May at the request of the minister. Today, we welcome Daniel Alcorn and George Stark, who are giving evidence as greyhound owners and trainers registered with the greyhound board of Great Britain. Thank you very much for joining us this morning. We have a number of questions that members would like to post to you. I am going to kick off as normal. Can you just talk us through the scale and the nature of your involvement in greyhound racing? For example, how many dogs you have, whether you train, where your dogs are kenneled and where you race your dogs and how often? George? I have about 40 odd dogs in my kennels. That is like ranging from pups to race dogs to retires, the oldest being 13. They are in my kennels in 4th near Lanark and we race at Newcastle. Dogs are drawn on average about four times a month and then we would exercise them in between times at home. Daniel? I have also got 40 greyhounds at home, four of which are in the house, but I will say that Newcastle twice a week with the greyhounds running on average once a week. In lines range from everything from pups to the oldest dog, I have got 12-year-old. Did you previously race your dogs at Shawfield? When that track closed, did it have an impact on what you did? Did you then start to travel more? What was the impact overall on Shawfield closing? I did race at Shawfield up until 26, I think it was, and I moved at that point to Sunderland to race my dogs. On the whole, Shawfield closing never had an impact on my business as such. However, it did because we would attract dogs that ran at Shawfield into my kennels to race at Sunderland in 2021. I moved from Sunderland to Newcastle just because it was a bit close at home, 20 minutes each way. When you say your business, do you train and kennel dogs for other people or do you own them all yourself? Primarily, I own a lot of the dogs myself, but I do kennel for a few owners who have had dogs for years, to be honest, but the majority of the dogs I do own myself and I breed a lot of them myself as well. Is that how it would normally work? Daniel, do you have your own dogs that you have told us about, but do other people come to you and ask that you kennel their dogs and train them and raise them on their behalf? Some people do come to me, but I tend not to go down that route. I have mostly my own dogs in the kennel, some of them are my fathers, some of them are my fathers-in-law. My wife owns a couple of kennels in the kennel as well, so we are a close knitted family kennel, so we have not got any owners at all in the kennel. Currently, you did not have any involvement with Shawfield and Newcastle in Sunderland, did you say that the tracks that you raised were stacked? Yes, I was previously at Sunderland and moved to Newcastle in 2021. Do you think that there is any demand or need, if you like, or support for another GBGB track in Scotland? Can you see that ever happening in the future? To be honest, I think that the cost of setting up a greyhound kennel and starting from scratch would either need to have a lot of money in the bank or somebody back you, to be honest. I am quite lucky that I have a family behind me to build the kennels and stuff, but I do not think that you would ever get a rich greyhound racing. I am very much a labourer of love and I do not know. Obviously, I would love to see another GBGB track opening in Scotland, but you would need to have loads of people with loads of money to make it a success, to be honest, and I do not see that happening, unfortunately. As a business, do you make your earnings from your dog's winning races or is there an element of people again that you said you would kennel for some other people? How do you make a living from it? At Newcastle, we are paid per runner. For every dog that we race, we are paid, and then you get a little bit extra when they win the race. On average, I would have my baby between 100 and 120 runners a month, so it just adds up. We are not going to become millionaires racing greyhounds, that is for sure. Give us an idea of what your kennels are like, because it is quite difficult to think how you keep 40 dogs. Can you explain to us physically how the kennels are set out and what sort of regulations you need to abide by to be able to race at GBGB tracks? My kennels are all 2.4 x 2.4 square. Each kennel houses two greyhounds with a bed in area of 5 foot to 4 foot there. As well as that, the dogs have also got 24-hour access, where they have got a run-out side that can go into a concrete paddock, which is that it will be three metres long, between a half metres wide, and each kennel has got that. Then I have a kitchen area. I have a workroom where the dogs get worked on for getting their grooming on their nails clipped and all that as well as a bath. As well as that, I have two grass paddocks and a three sand paddocks at home as well that the greyhounds can go into to exercise. Is it fairly well regulated? Did GBGB come in and check that you are abiding by their standards and conditions and that the kennels are kept in a certain way and that the dogs are given an effect of size and whatever? Yes, they are. We have got a Stippins Stewart assignment story on who comes to kennels manually twice a year. He could come every week if he wanted to. We have got a vet now called Barry Sanxter who also comes to kennels twice a year and can come more frequently for likes as well. Plus, we have got the new cast of accreditation now as well for all the kennels, so I am getting checked quite regularly. When you go and raise how many dogs do you normally take and how do you transport them? The dogs are transported in specific travelling cages that are to specific guidelines set out by DEFRA. They are transported in a van to the track. Daniel and I's van probably holds pretty much the same. They can hold about 15 dogs in cages, but some days you will go with two or three, some days you will go with 15. There is no set amount of how many you have got to travel with, to be honest. Thank you, convener, and thank you very much for being here today. One of the things that probably lies behind the petition that we have been asked to look at in the committee, or certainly one of the things that is relevant to it, is a report that was produced by the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission. What it has to say is that a dog bred for racing in Scotland currently has poorer welfare than the average of other dogs in the population, so I just wonder if you can respond to that and what you think of that. I would debate that, to be honest, because our dogs are like both Daniel and I do breed at our own dogs as well. They are well socialised. They are allowed to display what any pup in life would be—mingle with kids, adults, play with toys. We probably feed a better diet to our pups than a lot of pet pups would be fed, to be honest. They are not fed like tinned meat or anything, which, in my opinion, does not have the same nutrients as the feeding what we would feed. They are well socialised, growing up at our own ones. The law would be three or four years breeding Scotland, to be honest, but we do it for the love. We would not do it if we did not love having the pups and we were not willing to show them loving attention, to be honest. Daniel, what do you want on that? There's really much the same as George. Mines get attention every single day, as often as we can be in with them. They're going to parrots to exercise, they've got toys in the parrots, they've got a bed in the parrots, they've got their food in there with them, they've got plenty of access to drinking water. In all honesty, I think that Greyhounds, Keffman or Kerr will be better treated in a lot of dogs in a home environment. Okay, thanks. The other question really that I had was, the other thing that the commission was talking about was that it specified what it thought were risks of racing at independent tracks. Now, I appreciate we're in a strange situation that you're not here to represent the independent track and I know that your association is with GBGB, but do you have any experience of the track at Thornton? Do you have any views about the standards there? Before I joined GBGB, I would have been coming up 12 years ago. In July I got my licence when I was 18. Before that, most of my life I'd been going to independent tracks like Armadale when that was here and also Thornton with my father because he raced it at the time. The tracks were always kept great, especially Thornton, that is still going just now. My dad still races here to that state and the running surface there has kept Christine, the boy that actually owns a track. He couldn't actually do any more to keep the track surface the way it is. It's on or so second and on. I would add that, like Daniel, I grew up going to independent racing before we went under the rules. I've not been to Thornton probably as much as Daniel has been in life. I did go to Armadale and stuff, but the tracks are not going to expect you to run a track that is substandard condition. I would also add that the dogs are kept by somebody keeping one or two dogs in their garden or in their house that are running there. There's no reason to believe that they would be kept in any worse conditions than us who are regulated and have our kennels inspected. I hope that those are family pets that I run at Thornton. Just on the back of Alasdor's question, the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission highlighted specific risks of racing at independent tracks where there was no regulation. In the same hand, they also say that the welfare or the impact of racing on dogs on independent tracks is unknown. Do you think that there's any more risk of dogs running a unlicensed track like Thornton than there would be in a GBGB track? Absolutely not. I don't think that it's regardless. Obviously, I don't think that there's a vet on site at Thornton these days, however, anywhere you are in the country within probably five or ten minutes, you've got to be able to get to a vet. We have to have a vet within a reasonable distance from our kennels in case anything goes wrong there. I know that there's very close to Thornton, so I don't see why it would be any different or any more risk at Thornton than it would be us running like some new castle, where there is a vet on site. We have a vet at Thornton called Bowl. I know that Bowl stays local to Thornton, and he is on call, so if somebody needs him, they can't go there for any treatment as soon as possible. I heard what you said about the welfare of dogs under your care, your view would be that they are likely to be better than pets. We heard from GBGB last year about a new welfare strategy that they had. I wondered if you'd had experience of that strategy and if you had any views on that strategy. Do you think that it would lead to any change in practices? You'll be speaking about a good life for every greyhound, but there are things that come in line with that. I don't know if, for instance, the rehoming side of things, there's the GBGB bond payment whereby we pay a £200 bond at the start of the dogs racing career when these are sent to an approved rehoming centre, which I personally only use. I've approved rehoming centres. They receive a £400 payment for taking the dog and we have the dog spayed orchestrated prior to going to the rehoming centre. There are also some training courses being run by the GBGB in line with the good life for every greyhound, which every trainer is invited to attend, be it remote or there's a few that you can go to in person. There are welfare ones, there's feeding and nutrition. There definitely is progress. Anything that can be done to improve conditions has improved. We're now independently inspected by SCI to ensure that our kennels are up to standard alongside our random inspections, because when the GBGB are visiting us, we don't know till they're basically at our kennels that they're coming. That's the independent company for the UCAS accreditation that they've been appointed to come and do an independent audit on our kennels on a yearly basis. There is definitely progress. I believe that anything that can be done to improve standards in the whole, although I like to think that me, Daniel, and everybody would, I don't think that you would really win the game if you wanted to keep dogs in sub-standard conditions. Thanks. That was the strategy that I was referring to, so thanks for that. We know that there's always some bad eggs that operate in a way that perhaps you, George and Daniel, would not operate to or be happy to keep their dogs in certain states. We've been looking at this for a while now. I was looking at the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission report, and it basically had said that they did not observe any negative contacts between handlers and greyhounds at the racetrack, and they saw no aggression between dogs or other outcomes indicative of poor welfare. You've said that that's your experience, but what I want to explore is that for various groups to be concerned about this, there must be something that needs to be improved.  Can you explain to us why the public and some of the welfare organisations might think otherwise? I have been on one of the pages on Facebook that is pushing for a ban on racing. On there, there's sharing information from abroad, like dogs, welfare and stuff. To be honest, I don't know why anyone would have greyhounds if they didn't want to show them love and affection, because they are a lovely breed. Most of what I've seen, you hit in the head where you said that there's cruelty in all walks of life, and I couldn't say that I'm not aware that there's ever been any cruelty in greyhounds racing. However, I'm also aware that there's been cruelty to children, there's been cruelty to every walk of life, everything, and everyone that can be cruelty involved. However, we are obviously responsible for making sure that we are keeping our dogs to standard. We have to keep pushing the bar a bit higher for us. It's not a bad thing, but kennel standards, before you could have just wooden kennels and have wood exposed, and if it was getting chewed, maybe it would have had a blind eye turn to it at one time. However, now it's straight on to things like that, because it could be that the dog needs some more stimulation or it can be that the dog wants to chew the wood, but we obviously need to look into things like that. Daniel, what would be the outcome if your greyhounds weren't kept in good welfare? If you're not keeping them right, it's like yourself. If you're not in a good condition yourself, you're not happy, whereas when you walk in the kennels and mine, every dog is up, they're jumping at you, their tails are wagging, they're happy to see you, they're licking you, and if you don't keep them in a good condition, I don't think you're going to get that off them. Same as I say ourselves, if you're not happy in what you're doing, you're not going to show it, you're going to be down, so you need to keep them in the best possible conditions. Although the GBB set a standard, I know that you're just saying that we like to go above that standard, because my dogs are actually keeping better conditions than I sleep in. The kennels are warmer than my house, but it's got to be a main priority for every trainer is going above and beyond every single stage of the GBB set out. Although every year there, like George says, are adding other bits in, you've got to do this, you've got to do this, if it's not already in practice at our kennels, we'll look at that and we'll go, what can we do that's better than that then? I think that's the thing that every trainer's got to get behind, although that is my own requirements, we need to go above and beyond to make sure that welfare is number one priority. My last question is really just on this sort of public perception of being a bad practice or that people like yourselves don't keep your animals in good conditions. I mean, what more needs to be done to ensure that the general public are kind of aware of the good conditions and the happiness of the dogs? I think that we don't, as an industry, promote ourselves enough to be honest. I have a pretty much open door at my kennels, anybody even in this room could come anytime and we would welcome them to have a look about it, so I don't, I think that transparency shows that we have none to hide at our place, so I just think that we should be in a position where we're promoting ourselves more. Bad news travels faster than good news to us, and it's the case in everything, to be honest, and I think that we're getting to a position where we are that we're trying to promote ourselves more, but it's like obviously there are people out there looking to shoot us down every step of the way. You say you go on above and beyond what GBGB require when it comes to animal welfare, and the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission suggested that there should be a scheme independent of GBGB in Scotland, and the Scottish Government has recently consulted on licensing. What's your views on an additional licence in Scotland that would be independent of GBGB for, potentially for, tracks and in your case for kennels? To be honest, the fact that we already comply with everything that the GBGB put in place, I don't see how there can be much difference in an additional licence that we would require, and obviously if it allows us to carry on doing what we love doing and what we've known our whole life, both Daniel and I have been involved with it since we were kids, so if it did allow us, obviously we are open. We would rather have additional measures in place in Scotland and see the game totally abolished, to be honest, and I think that everybody's in that same situation. So quite happy if the Government to consider licensing all aspects agree in Scotland, that's something that you would potentially take a look at and accept. Yeah, anything necessary to make sure that the thing that we love the most and not only we love the most doesn't disappear really. Okay, thank you. Question from Emma Harper. Thanks, convener. Good morning, George and Daniel. Thanks for being here today. I'm interested in hearing about where dogs are sourced from. He said you breed your own, but I know that Ireland is considered one of the best performance places for greyhounds, so tell me about where you get dogs and as far as how, because I know the turnaround of racing is maybe four years as long as dogs will race for, so that means that there has to be a bit of a turnaround in order to keep up with, I suppose, racing demand. I'm interested about where you sow your dogs from. Most of my dogs are other than my homebred ones. We would sow from Ireland, they have sales auctions here and also I have people who have bought dogs off here for years, so I would go back if somebody sells you a good dog, you've got to go back again and at least you know what you're receiving then and you know that it's coming for a decent person, to be honest, and you've got nothing to worry about. To be honest, I don't think that there's many, if any, bad people in ground racing, but as I said, there is bad people in all walks of life. The 40 dogs, and not for that, the vast majority are all homebred dogs. I've got four greyhounds that were parts of some Ireland in the kennel of 40, most of my dogs are the same, they're all homebred, they're all, I think I've got two that some other trainers that were homebred, one in Scotland and one in England, sorry, two in Scotland, but they're all born at home, really, all mine. Do you have to travel to Ireland then, if there's auctions or is it done online type? There is like online auctions, I sometimes will travel over to the sales and we use like a licensed transporter to get them back over here, so it's just there's many ways also because I do take some dogs in for owners, they would source them as well from even other trainers in the UK or other trainers, although there's not many in Scotland that did receive one to a trainer in Scotland last week. One of our questions that we have talks about like a compatible microchip system where Irish dogs that are microchipped in Ireland will, it will be transferable so that we'll be able to trace dogs more, is that something that you think that should be pursued? So when we get the dogs that are microchipped when they come from Ireland and when we register them with the GBGB that aligns them with us? Right, so it's all compatible then? Yeah, it is. Okay. Do you mind? No, I don't mind. Is that the GB assured breeder scheme that you're working with? The Great Hand Board of Great Britain? Yeah, is it the GBG assured breeder scheme that you work with in terms of getting stock that is more approved or assured? No, no, I don't really understand it. The Great Hand Board of Great Britain is when we're referring to the GBGB, I think. They are kind of like our regulatory board, so they are like... Yes, but a meaning is there an assured breeder scheme? No, I don't think so. Right, yeah, okay. I know that the microchips just now, I think, the GBGB is currently trying to do something different because currently the Great Hand is having a microchip and an ear tattoo. They're trying something different just now to do away with the ear tattoos, so then the dogs don't have to get put through the tattoo anymore. I don't... It's only a kind of... What do you call that? I've tried a period just now, I... Okay, so I suppose the question is then, to develop this, is what conditions are set. Is there a sort of... You mentioned there about the other board. Sorry, I'm getting confused with my acronyms and everything here. But is there a criteria? So say you were bringing, you know, horse racing is regulated, there be certain conditions or whatever that might be. You go to a person who is... Let's just call them an assured breeder. They may not be, I don't know, and that's probably the question I'm trying to ask. You know that they're coming from good stock, but if you didn't buy them from good stock, they wouldn't be, you know, what you were looking for. Is that what you're looking for good welfare when you're buying these pups?  Well, we have dogs with all abilities, but you want... When you're buying dogs in, you want dogs that can run good because you don't know what you're breeding yourself. You don't have good runners, they'll be. But yeah, I like to buy for the same people because we've went back continually to them for years. Yeah, and even if you're buying online, do you like to know... I mean, you've got a relationship with these people and you know that they're coming from a good home? Or, I mean, how do you know that? Well, yeah, that's not guaranteed, but you're hoping so if you're buying them online. Yeah, yeah. Okay. But just another question about... You talk about getting a good dog. What does good dog mean? Does it mean a dog that's feisty, but you don't want them to be fighting other dogs when they're at a track? I mean, how do you know a dog is going to be a good dog? I'm saying a good dog, I mean a fast runner. I don't mean like a good dog. I think there's not many bad greyhounds to be honest. They're really placid natures, but I mean like a fast runner, sorry. I should have said that because obviously we don't know how fast or slow the ones that we breed at ourself have got to be, so I think whenever you're always looking to better how fast your dogs are, but yeah. It doesn't make any difference in my kennel if they're fast or slow. They're all kenneled together, they're all fed the same, they're all socialised. Okay. Come back to what Rachel Hamilton is asking, she was referring to the greyhound board, a great Britain, and their plans to set up an assured breeder scheme. Now, it sounds like you're probably doing most of the things an assured breeder scheme would do, so you try to find that the dogs are from a good home and whatever. Is that something that you would welcome to ensure that, so you guys are doing the right thing, but ultimately, as you've always said, there's some bar actors that might not be following the rules, so would you welcome an assured breeder scheme to allow people to be part of the GBGB racing circuit, if you like? I would say so, yeah. Anything that the GBGB want to implement in place is going to better the dogs, I think, should come in. Anything, any good ideas that have should be kind of brung forward and implemented as soon as they think it's right to do so. Okay, thank you. We're now going to move on to questions about welfare that tracks and a question from Eleanor Whitham. Thanks very much, convener, and thank you to Jordan Daniel for joining us this morning. I'm so sorry that I'm joining remotely. I've got some questions round about welfare, so one of the key welfare concerns that's been raised with the committee is the risk of injury and fatalities when dogs are racing. So could you both give us a sense of how often dogs you train are injured during racing, what kinds of injuries that they sustain, and what maybe the risk factors are, please? Most of the manjies are sustained, they're kind of small, slight muscle pulls, same as you would get with an athlete, a footballer. It's just basically the same things you get. It's a small tendon, they go small muscle injuries, and you can get the odd bone injuries as well, but the tracks are getting better, surfaces put on them all the time, which in turn should be bringing the injuries down. Certainly, I think that over the years, my injuries have been reducing slightly every single year, which I'm seeing is. Maybe that's because I'm putting better patterns in at home, or the track, or it's a combination of both, so that they are coming down, but it's mostly just muscle pulls I'll get, a slight wee tendon strains. I think, as Daniel said, that most injuries are just small muscle injuries, and I do usually think very closely, like if it's an older dog, if it's a muscle injury, we would just look to start the process of finding it at home at that point. We obviously bone injuries do happen as well, but these happen and run free fields and everything. At least, at the track, it's a prepared surface that's been prepared to a standard that's fit for a dog to run at 40mph. Obviously, as Daniel says, the most injuries we get are small niggles, which we would take the dog off the cart at that point of the racing strength and make it, like obviously treat it. Thanks very much for those answers now. If I can ask for just a wee bit more clarification round about what you mean by the improvement to the track surface, so am I to understand that that's perhaps moving from a loose, gravelly type of a surface to a more compact surface, because I know that a lot of the issues that we're hearing around about a noble track animals going into a bend is perhaps where injuries can occur. If you can talk a little bit as well about what you think about the proposals for straight tracks, how that could work in practice as well? I think that it could have the adverse effect with a straight track, because the dog has got to run faster in a straight line, like over 500m, than it is when there's a bend involved, because they aren't keeping up with the speed on the bend, so they're getting up to a good speed, but if they're flat out for 500m, there's more chance of an injury. In terms of the track preparation being better, the GBGB now have people in place who, I believe it's quarterly, visit at least each track at least once and do tests on the sand on the surface. It's just as silica sanding most of the tracks, which is the easiest way to maintain it. There's no gravel in the track surfaces. Okay, and I get that. Final?  No, no, it's fine, okay. Yes, right, carry on. All right, thanks. A last question for me. You've already touched upon it in terms of vet availability at tracks. Now, obviously the GBGB tracks have a vet on site. You've touched about on informal arrangements that are at the Thornton independent track. Have either of you had to avail yourselves of vet services when you're racing? I understand you're saying that it's mostly muscle strain, but I guess there could be an instance where you might have a catastrophic injury that does happen to a dog. Obviously, if the vet's on at hand, they could actually be getting treated in a much quicker manner, so maybe just a little bit more around about vets at tracks and whether you've had to use them before. So every GBGB track's got a vet on site, and certainly at tracks, they've all got an emergency vet, so if the dog was to say, break its hawk, then the vet at the track could do the best that they can do to get the dog then transported to the emergency vet, where they'll go straight in for x-rays and pins in place if necessary to correct the dog's leg straight away. The times that has happened at Newcastle, they've got a few vets in place. River Vets is 30 minutes on the track, so what the vet track will do is they'll band your dog all up, so it's safe to travel. We've then got to have a cage that's specified to a specific size so dogs can lie down in them to be transported to the vet, and then from there within 24 to 48 hours that dog's always operated on. It just depends on the time that the dog was to break the leg and if they need to order in specific plates to do the work, so that's just going to vet depending on the supplies that they have, but there's two, there's more of your vets that's within half an hour, and River Vets both within 30 minutes of Newcastle that I've, and I enjoyed that, a sustained arc send, is there straight away to get the correct fix done. Okay, thank you. Aran Burgess. Thanks, convener, and thanks very much for coming in to talk to us today. The evidence so far has been very interesting. I'd like to hear a little bit more about when you go to understand the day at a track, when you go to the track, how many races are there that take place? Each race meeting has 12 races on the card, at Newcastle anyway with six, if it was Thornton it's, they're only running four or five, we may be five dogs at the minute. A typical race day is we will leave the kennels and set off the track, when we arrive at the track, the dogs are weighed to make sure that their weights are correct, like within a keelod, certainly their last racing weight. They're then inspected by the on-course vet, and obviously if there's any issues at that point, they would retrot them up and down, and then they will give them a physical examination at that point just to make sure there's no issues with each dog. They have their teeth checked and just to make sure they're in general good health. We then kennel them in specific race scores kennels, which are, well, they're much bigger than an extra large dog crate thing, what you would maybe have in your house. And then when we get them out to race again, they're again trotted for the vet just to make sure, because you do get instances where a dog will maybe cut its foot or shut in, like it's clawing the bars in the kennel, because I don't know of any of ever seen a dog at a race track, but they're sometimes quite uncontrollable because they're quite excited to be there. So they want to get out, they want to race, so they're trotted again for the vet. Obviously, as Daniel says, event unfortunately goes wrong during the race, the vet's there to help. I should have added on the back of Daniel's when Elena had asked about and any injuries that we've had to use a vet for. The last dog that I had that required serious injury, the race had actually finished. I was about to put the lead on the dog, and it was having a carry-on with my other dog, and unfortunately it just toppled over, and it did break its leg, and I had to get quite an extensive operation, but I've still got it at home. She will be getting re-homed in due course, but it's not only during a race that a dog would get injured. So 12 races at Newcastle and fewer at Thornton, but just on the picking up on what Elena was asking, and you were talking about the experience with the vet. Over the course of a day, how many injuries might you see? Have you ever had the experience of a fatality in a race? On the majority of the race meetings, you see no injuries. Of course, I think that everybody's seen a fatality. Unfortunately, it does happen. I've had a couple of fatalities myself over here by heart attack as well, and at the time I did say to the track vet, I wish I hadn't brought it, she's like, George, that could have ran across the field at home and done the same, she's like, it's no any different. It's just like people in life, they can have a heart attack at any time. There are fatalities, but they're very minimum, to be honest. It's not like we don't go to the track and see multiple injuries every single day that we're there because it wouldn't be a very pleasant place to go if that was the case, to be honest. I don't think it would be for anybody. I hear your passion for what you're doing, but I wonder if you feel satisfied with the dogs under your care that you clearly love, are they being exposed to those fatalities and injuries? I have over the years re-homed dogs through a specific re-home in Charity in Scotland, which I no longer use, and I've had more killed over the years than I've ever had that has been re-homed by them than what I've ever had killed on a racetrack, like getting hit by trains, breaking necks, running in free fields where the owners, when they've been re-homed, have let them run across an uneven field, jumped a ditch and broke its neck. I've had more dogs killed that way than any, not in Machia, once I've left Machia, so I think we are safeguarding their care when there was, we'll only run them when I prepare surface. I think the tracks are prepared that well, and if they weren't prepared that well, I probably wouldn't raise my dogs on the memory, because for me, the dogs do come first, so if the tracks weren't prepared properly, I wouldn't be taking my dogs through that track, so if Newcastle wasn't right, or when I was at the independent scene at Thornton, if that wasn't right, I wouldn't have went there. It's definitely in Marpine, I wouldn't have been there, and I can certainly speak for George on that as well, so I think that's the main thing, as if we didn't think it would say if we wouldn't be there. Thank you. You mentioned how it works with vets in your experience at Newcastle. Obviously, we're also keen to know how it works at Thornton, and there isn't a resident vet there, so have you, Daniel D.C., raised dogs at Thornton, and how it works with vets, and have you needed vets in a hurry? Before I went to GBGB, I raised at Thornton, and at the time there was a vet at the track that was there for every race meeting in every trial session, but over the course of the years, just Bill has been too busy to be at the track, but if need be, he's a phone call away, and I can't remember where he is now, but it's just come straight up, doesn't matter if it's 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock at night, he makes you there, and he'll give the dog the appropriate treatment that it does need. Thanks very much. I know that we've had debates in chamber about greyhound racing, and one of the issues that has been raised has been accusations of the use of cocaine, amphetamines, steroids, so these are banned substances for greyhounds. Any, I suppose, what will be your thoughts around some of the publication of that kind of information? Respective somebody, but I'd given that to the dog. So in respect to, does it occur within greyhound racing, and as far as given substances that are banned? I think that there has been cases in the greyhound board calendar, and I think that it's been reported in some newspapers that there has been cases of doping. I've certainly never had any cases to answer in that respect. I wouldn't give a dog something that wouldn't take myself, and certainly I would, it's like, I would, and it's, you don't know what effect it would have on a dog, so I don't see why you would give it anyway. I'm like George, I've been there for 12 years and nearly in the GVGB, and I've never once had any positive sample here for any sort of substance. Okay, thanks. Do you think it's an issue though? I know you guys are saying that you're not involved, but do you think it's an issue within GBGB greyhound racing? I don't think so, no. There seems to be very, very limited positive samples, and when there is, everybody is, you know, they're reprimanded by the GBGB, and it is all published, so the public eye can't look at it and see he's had one there, that's what the dog's had there. He's been given this of a finer, a suspension, or whatever's been necessary, according to the GBGB. Okay, thank you. Kate Forbes. Thanks very much. Alasdair Allan mentioned a report from the Scottish Animal Welfare Commission. Can I go back to that, and they do say that, in terms of, sorry, the question about kenneling, so they do say that their, the evidence they'd seen was that greyhound kennels in Scotland are providing satisfactory levels of care, but they also say that there's a question about how long racing greyhounds are normally kenneled for as a proportion of their life in terms of what impact that has on their welfare and their care. I wonder what you would say about that. You talked about the socialising that your dogs have access to. Isn't that the norm across the board? And do you think that, well, how would you respond to their suggestion that, and I'm just going to read it directly, that the fact that greyhounds are kept in kennels for so much of their lives, this is their quote, do you not appear compatible with giving dogs a good quality of life? So, if you have a dog and you work the chances are that dog's got to be left in the house a lot of the day on its own, so I have staff at home, so if I'm at the track right now, there are people there to, so we are basically, usually there's someone in our kennels pretty much from 7 o'clock in the morning till 10 o'clock at night, every day, seven days a week. So, I think they're getting well. It's not like they're not just thrown in a kennel, took out the race and then put back in, and that's the same till the next week there. They're getting like plenty, exercise plenty of care. I think that anybody who has my retired dogs as well would agree that they do settle pretty quickly into their home environment so much so that a lot of people who have my retired dogs will take another one that specifically came from me, and I think industry-wide now that is the case, it might have been, I think it used to be like an old-fashioned way where dogs were, like kennels were maybe open from like early in the morning till 12 o'clock, and then that was the same till the next day, but now, with all the trainers, you're in the kennels all day every day, so it's not like they're not being prepared for life outside the kennel. Do they have access then to, again they talk about having access to paddocks or open areas in order to roam, and how do you facilitate that? All my kennels, each individual kennel for two dogs, all have their own paddock outside where they can go 24-7. They've got a one-to-one as well, so they're getting direct sunlight, what the hatch will have, a hatch they can go out that's never closed, and they can go in and out as a please, they can lie outside in the sun, they can stay inside in the cool, or they can go out in the cool if they want to be a bit warmer on the kennel, so certainly they'll get a lead walk every single day as well, plus then they've got their race days, if they get a lead walk, maybe say today they could be in the paddock tomorrow if they're not racing this week, if the track's given a week off or if I've felt any other way week off just to boost herself sometimes to go in the paddock with just a toy, so mine certainly get a lot of free roam in their paddocks up a single day. We have paddocks the same as Daniel and we have a 220-metre fenced-in run where there's toys scattered all over at Teddy's balls, so we just take them in there, let them off the lead and let them do what they want really, there's no vigorous hard training for them on there, it's like just let them enjoy themselves. I always just say to the boys who work in my kennel, just keep the dogs happy and they'll be happy they'll perform for you, so I think letting them play with toys and stuff is part of that. Thank you, Rachel Hamilton. You know how you need a licence for a boarding kennel in Scotland and I believe that the local authority look at the welfare standards of that. If the Scottish Government were minded to extend that boarding kennel legislation to Greyhounds kennels, what would your view be on that? The other thing is, if Scotland brought in the extension of that regulation in terms of the kennel management and standards, how would that affect anything in terms of the rest of the United Kingdom? Do you think that, as GBGB do in terms of the welfare standards for kenneling, that happens across the United Kingdom, so you know that there's a seamless approach to that? Do you think that there'd be any disadvantage of Scotland bringing in their own sort of regulation? I don't see there being a disadvantage when that would improve welfare, but it's just probably would increase the cost that we need to output, which we, like everybody else, we just have to just do it. It's just like any time that we are put more like something, another charge putting, we just need to do it, because it's what we love doing, so if it did happen, we would need to do it, but I don't see why it's necessary, but if it was the case that it had to happen, we would just need to go with it. I suppose that you know that your friends probably have dogs and some people you may know have boarding kennels, but obviously we're not at this stage yet, but if the Government do and have suggested that that might happen, and there's a consultation on it, for example, what could you see that you're doing that's different to what a boarding kennel is doing, or is what you're doing better or worse than what some of the boarding kennels are providing in terms of the welfare for the dogs? I've been in a few boarding kennels, and I think that the standards on welfare across my kennels and theirs, I would say that they're in par with each other, I'd bob a bit more bias and say that I would be better on that circumstance, but they'd probably say the opposite, but I definitely think they're in par with each other enough. The legislation was to come in, as George said, it's only a benefit. It's just another tick to say that somebody else has checked it, as well as the GBGB, the GBGB Vet and the UCAS, that somebody else has checked and said welfare is number one priority there, and that can all be a good thing for the sport. Okay, thanks. Thank you. I'm going to move questions from Rhoda Grant on retirement, not personally but.  Can I just talk to you about, and we have talked about dogs retiring and being re-homed. Do all retired dogs go to a re-homing charity? George, you mentioned earlier that you used to work with a charity in Scotland that you no longer work with, and you seemed concerned about that charity. I don't use them anymore. I use the Greyhound board-approved re-homing centres, and I can speak for the three centres in Scotland that I use. None of them would support a ban on greyhound racing in Scotland. I don't think—because they would be worried that the breed that they love would die out. I used to use different re-homing places, but now we're just streamline it. I like to be—there's the main one that I would use in Scotland. They like to fortnightly walk, and I like to go and see the dogs. I've been stood at a walk at Strathclyde Park, Trampelia Park, and the next thing is a dog dragging its new owner off its feet to bowing something to me. We can't be treating them that bad when they're in the kennel, the fact that they're excited to see us once they're retired and in a home. Can you talk me through that process a wee bit more? You talked earlier about having a 12-year-old dog at home. What do you decide to keep? What do you decide to re-home? What's the process? What does the re-homing centre do? I've got a 13-year-old one. Daniel's got a 12-year-old. He was 13 on Saturday. He went to a re-homing centre. He got re-homed in a lovely home in Northern Ireland. However, he ran away. I had to go and get him. When I caught him the next day, I did bring him home. He's still there today. He's quite old now. I don't like seeing any of them go for re-homing, to be honest. You can't keep them all because, at the end of the day, the racing is what you make your money from to keep the ball rolling. They would go to the re-homing centre and they would match them up to a suitable home. I'd rather do it that way than me re-homing them privately. I would do that to friends around and I would re-home them. I prefer to re-home them. I would do home checks and match the dog up to the home rather than someone coming and saying, I want that one because it's falling or something. They know what they're doing. I've got three retired them on. Is it the same for you, Daniel? Yes. I've got four in the house. Like George, we've just recently taken one back off of a re-homing centre. The Green Awareness League re-homed a dog from a phala that was racing on independence scene. When the dog moved from Ireland, he was quite nervous. At the end of his career, my dad always wanted to take me in the house, but he had a Labradorm house at the time that they just didn't get on, so he said that it's only fair that he goes to be in somebody's couch. He went to them in October last year and only three weeks ago, the phone made to see if it would take them back because of his nerves that they couldn't re-home them. My dad went the next day to pick them up and he's now in my dad's house and he's jumping over everybody. We've also went and took two ones back. The ones that I've got in the house, two of which are ex-brood bitches that they did rear-pups for at one stage. Another one, having a house, he did break his leg and unfortunately he had to get his leg removed because where the break was, so he spends his days in the couch now and puts us on the floor, but yours all go to the same place as George's as well. He uses that same cent as George's does. You talked about a bond earlier, was it £200? Given that the dogs are, I suppose, like athletes, they will probably have more complex issues when they retire with muscles and bones and things like that. Does that put off people from taking them, re-homing them? Are they more expensive to keep as a dog that would be just your pet all its life? I don't think that it would be any more expensive to keep a retired greyhound than it would any dog. They could have arthritis or whatever, which would be minimal. There are also breeds out there that have difficulty breathing the way they're bred and stuff, so I don't see why a greyhound that's raced would be any different. I know most people who have retired would rather have one that's had raced because they've had their daft puppy years while they've been with us, so they're starting to wind down when they're going for re-homing. Although I have one that's refused to race, so that's in the process of looking for a home. It's 14 months old. There's nothing we can do to make a dog chase a hare, but it's not a hare, it's a lie. It's a bit of material. There's nothing we can do, so we can't force them to chase it. She'll be looking for a home. I don't see why it would be any more expensive to keep a retired greyhound. Do they adapt quite easily? Does the re-homing centre have to do things to help them to adapt from coming in from kennels to going out to a home? You've got to do things in your kennel as well to help that. The GBGB look for us to introduce like low mines hard anyway, but radio's 24-7. They ask us if we can take a hover in and hover back around the kennel once, twice a week, so then when it comes into transition into home they're used to these noises and these different things that maybe years ago they weren't used to. So the transition over now from speak to people that's re-homed dogs through the centre that we both use, they've all said that it's been effortless, it's been easy. Only last, I think it was about September last year, I had went to one of the greyhound walks and the family fell in love with a dog but it was still at my kennel. And I'll be honest, I was a bit nervous about taking them because they had like, it was a multiple dog household. He just went into the house straight up in the sofa and laid down. I knew he was like, he would have thought, I was in that house an hour, he'd have thought he'd been there his whole life. And that was straight out of a racing kennel in the morning and straight into someone's house in the afternoon. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Emma Harper. Thanks, just a quick question. When a greyhound has a litter of puppies, how many puppies normally is in a litter? And then how many of those puppies become racing greyhounds that are good enough to race? Because I'm thinking about is there too many that need to be re-homed after racing? Last year, I had a litter of eight. One of them never made the track, he's the same as George's pup. He's not interested, he sees a mechanical ear and he just looks at you and wags his tail and just wants to play with you rather than chase. So out of that litter of eight, there's been one that hasn't made the track, so he's also waiting to go for a re-home just now. I had a litter of two, both of them got to the track in their race and fine. I got two of her boy from Loddest in his stays and they both hit the track as well. I think his litter had six or seven in their all-racing. So out of that, there was only one that never actually hit the track out of that many, so it's actually quite minimum that don't get to the track that isn't interested in racing. When we breed a litter of eight, I don't sell them and Daniel doesn't sell them in their pups, because if I meet him, it'd be like selling a child, to be honest.  I do let some of the volunteers for the re-homing centre come to my kennel to meet them as puppies to try and create a bond with them being pups so that they can follow them through their racing career and then it might be a potential home at the end of it. I'm going to bring in Maroschill to ask some questions. Thanks for coming along this morning. It's good to hear about your high standards of kenneling and obviously your love for the sport and your love for the dogs. I don't deny that, but I'm wondering if you'd accept that there are still inherent risks to grey hand racing that you put the dogs through and perhaps if I could use an example, Daniel, one of your dogs that you owned and trained, Bluezy Watermill, that you passed on to another owner, has in recent years developed quite a chronic, bluezy watermill. Has developed quite a chronic heart and lung condition and the dog has been taken to a number of others, including cardiovascular specialists. They believe that the reason why this dog is suffering from that condition is because of the racing and the fact that it was raced 67 times under your care, which I think is seen to be quite excessive. I don't deny that your kenneling and what you've described this morning appears to be exemplary, but I'm wondering if you acknowledge that the actual racing of the dogs does cause an inherent risk and that dogs like Bluezy then can go on, in some cases, to develop quite debilitating conditions as a result of that. The Government at Rehome Bluezy got in touch with me recently to ask if anything in the litter had the same and there's been nothing else in that litter of pups, one of which I see every single month at the Greyhound box that my young dogs both attend. I was talking to her about that and asking her, I says, it's worth checking out just in case, but in terms of the 67 races, there's greyhounds that can run 250 races in going over a five-year period, going, be re-homed and live the rest of their days and never have any issues. So I think Bluezy's just a case where I've never heard of anything like that happening before. I think it's just a rare case that with the 67 races I wouldn't actually put down to the racing. I definitely wouldn't say that's anything to do with racing on that side of it because there's many greyhounds going to 250 races and never have any issues in 67 races, just a fraction of what they've had. Okay, so you differ in your opinion to the opinion of Sten and Cardiwaskus specialists, but can I ask you about the GBGB figures though, because the figures do show that there are injuries and deaths at the track. Would you consider that level of injuries and deaths to be acceptable? Is that an acceptable risk for the dogs? I think I actually in the last few days had a look at the injury statistics. I think it is 0.03 percent of our fatalities on the track. The stats have been published. It's like there's, as I had said before, fatalities like those run free fields of fatalities. I'm on greyhounds rehoming pages and stuff. You see it all the time on there. I think that the injury stats have definitely come down from the fatality stats have definitely come down over the past 10, 15 years. I do think that we're in a position where we're making things better. Anything that we can do to make things better would be welcome by us. It would be great if we could have zero injuries, zero fatalities, but it happens in people the same as it happens in dogs. Yeah, I mean the only way to get zero injuries and fatalities would be if he didn't race the dogs on a curved track at Fortmall.  Does that mean that every dog should be restricted to being on a lead and never once allowed to be a dog? Okay, okay. Can I ask you then just a final set of questions just around the number of dogs? I think that, as Georgie said earlier, you've got 40 dogs that you kennel at the moment. What's the kind of throughput of dogs? How long would you normally keep a greyhound form? You mentioned some dogs that have become your family pets and living on the sofa, right? But how many dogs actually come through the kennels from year to year? How many have come through in the last five years about your kennels? The both of us are probably in a similar position. We don't have a massive turnover of dogs because obviously I don't sell dogs on once I've got them. If I buy a dog in or breed a dog, I don't sell it on, so it's pretty much, I like to see them through it until they go to the rehoming centre. I don't have stats handy on what my turnover of dogs has been. I know that during lockdown, we were rehoming dogs with no injuries just because rehoming centres were wanting to rehome because there was a demand for dogs.  You must know surely how many dogs have gone through your kennels in recent years. You've got 40 now, so how many were there two years ago? How many dogs have been moved on over time? We need to get a sense of what throughput of dogs is. We would have that in our books at home, like how many are moving through, because we would tend to keep about 40. There would have been 42 years ago, but there's 40 there now. I would maybe retire about 10, 12 a year. Then you're obviously getting replaced by pups coming through that you breed. I'll be much the same as George, probably one a month, odd months, maybe two dogs a year at your home. It just depends really on if they have a sustained injury. Although some injuries wouldn't be class as clear-ended injuries, I'm a wee bit soft where I think if that injury might come back, I will not take the dog racing again. The rage takes a big factor into it. George Sturme locked in our dogs that we're turning for in maybe two or three months' time. We're turning just turn four in the homeless areas that we use, getting in touch with us and said if he's got any dogs that are going to fit that criteria just now, because we don't have how long this lockdown is going to last for, so all of us have the dogs in a kennel environment for longer when they can be in that home environment. At that time, I decided it was best for the dogs to go for homing, so then when I'm three months off for any athlete, you can, you're prone to then coming back and doing more damage to yourself, so they're going to have that kind of length of lay-off at that time. I decided then that we would re-home the older dogs to prevent the dogs sustaining any injuries coming back. What is the life of a racing greyhound then in terms of its career? Is it a couple of years? Is it three to four years? It's all just a start when they're allowed to race at the track, and they'll race anything up to five-year-old. The odd dog will want to keep going, and some dogs will go to six, but there's not, most of them would say, four to five-year-old would be the time they're tired between. And the dogs, just finally, if the dogs that are passing through and you're passing them on, you say about 10 a year, how many of those have got injuries? Have they all got injuries or some of them? They're too old, they're not fast enough anymore. None will have an injury when they're leavers. If they did have an injury, they'll all be sorted for that injury, so if they've broken a toe or pulled a muscle, or tore a muscle before that dog leaves their kennel, they'll all be taken back to the standard where a dog should be at, where that muscle tear is now healed, that broken toe is now healed. Matthew, that I used locally to me, he checks the dogs over and he'll tell me that that's fine for homing. Also, when they're up to go for homings to go to Newcastle, that vet checks them again, and they then give you a certificate to say that dogs have passed for homing, although he'll say to you that the dog's still feeling that muscle that we've touched, so you need to keep ultrasounding that muscle to get that sonus out so that the dog can go for homing. So it's fit for rehoming but not fit for racing? Yeah, the track, like we take them at the track, and the vet has to sign them off as fit for homing, check their teeth for a reasonable standard, and the injuries healed sufficiently.  To be honest, that is a way... To wind up, Alasdor Allan. Thank you very much. One of the things I think we're interested in, based on the previous evidence we've had, is the future of this pastime looks like. The only places in the world where Greyhound Racing is still legally in existence, I think, keep me right, is the UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, three or four states, I think, in the US, Mexico and Vietnam. As we've talked about, there's only one place in Scotland where this is now happening. We had heard in previous evidence that the tendencies, for instance, at Thornton, had been declining and declining. I don't know if any of that is true or if you can offer any insight into that. Is there a decline in the number of people who are involved in this activity? I don't go to Thornton, so I wouldn't know what the tendencies are like at Thornton, to be honest. I'll be honest with that. I can speak for Newcastle. I choose the morning meeting when we're racing. It's got to be a completely different attendance to a Saturday afternoon or a Friday afternoon, because it's still a popular sport for, like, stag events and hen nights and stuff, family parties. A Thursday night, Friday afternoon, Saturday afternoon at Newcastle, you can expect a crowd. On a Tuesday morning and a Wednesday afternoon, pretty much that's that. Races have been run to be broadcast across the world. Most attendees, then, will be attendees that own Greyhounds that's racing that day, so they'll be coming as a hobby to see their dog's race. Thank you, George and Daniel. We've kept you longer than we intended, but I think that reflects the interests that we have. Thank you very much for your comprehensive answers. That's been most helpful. As I said, we're returning to this with the minister in May. That concludes our business in private. We'll now suspend the meeting for a short comfort break before moving into private session. Thank you very much.