Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm honored to be joined by Gil Chiron Gil Welcome to the show Great to be here. Thanks for having me. Absolutely. So You are here to teach us about really the origins and history of reggae drumming, which You came to my attention from your very famous book DVD wicked beats, which is reggae rocksteady and Jamaican ska drumming Lessons, which is just I think very very well respected in the community. So I'm really really pumped to have you here awesome Thank you so much. Yeah, it's it's an honor to be here and it's it really is an honor to be a representative of this music and just Explain it to people and I love doing it. So I'm I'm excited to jump into this. Yeah, so it's it's funny because like Some people might think that like I should be talking to like a traditional Jamaican reggae drummer But I think it should be set up front that you are really really really passionate and very knowledgeable about this and that what's just kind of mind-blowing though is like You have done so many things which will really kind of dig deeper in at the end But like Dillinger escape plan Marilyn Manson Jerry Cantrell. I mean you've done a lot of film work You're all over the place, man Yeah, yeah, totally. It's it's funny even when I joined Dillinger. There was a lot of like Press behind my entrance of that band and for people that don't know the style of music that Dillinger is it has Nothing to do with Jamaican styles of music and now it's extremely extreme metal heavy music lots of time changes lots of blistering tempos so They they introduced me in the band and people knew me from this clip on YouTube doing like reggae rhythms And it was funny because they'd be like Dillinger got a reggae drummer. What's going on? That's hysterical. So yeah, yeah, it's funny, but it's Definitely even though I play everything and I really don't you know say that loosely I really do play everything and and I'm music is my life and I Can't hold myself down to one style. I've never wanted to be that kind of player. That was just an expert in one thing I always wanted to be like an expert in everything because I just loved it all and you know, I really feel like my my Education of the Jamaican styles of music and what I've been through Over the years and playing this music for you know, almost 30 years now and being around the community I I can say with confidence that I may I'm a good authority figure on the topic. Good. I love that. I like you're amongst fellow like obsessed Nerds who absolutely this is just you know, everything drumming is is is what we all love So you're amongst friends here. I love that. Well, Gil Why don't we jump right in and go back to the beginning and start with the origins of reggae drumming? Just a side note, especially for the listeners besides the Jamaican styles of music. I'm also a total jazz head So a lot of the comparisons that I make Explaining the Jamaican styles of music and the sub genres like you're gonna hear me throw a lot of jazz Comparisons and compare certain players or how things work musically to jazz. So let's start from the beginning and We start in Jamaica Basically before reggae came There's a lot of people think it's like just reggae and then everything is under the reggae genre, but it's not we start with ska and a Lot of people kind of think oh they heard of ska and like the 90s from bands from like Orange County or they heard of ska and like the early 80s from this two-tone movement and We'll get to all of that but that is not at all what started everything So when you go to 1950s Jamaica Before ska even started the musicians were highly influenced of course from what was happening in the States with Jazz with with blues with there's Afro-Cuban influence. There's Latin influence there were also Calypso styles and styles called Buru drumming which were Being played by a set of drummers on hand percussion as opposed to a drum set but then the Buru style really got coined by One man who we just have to just talk about and give props to and everybody needs to know who this man is his name is Lloyd nib and Lloyd was the godfather of pretty much all of these styles on the drum set and we will get to Lloyd in a minute so basically Before ska was coined in the late 50s into the early 60s The lot of the Jamaican bands were just playing like this combination of like doo-wop boogie woogie Kind of blue beat type shuffle grooves and that's what was happening on the drum set it was either like a straight kind of boogie woogie beat or a swung shuffle beat and That's why I always tell people it's so important to develop a strong shuffle in your playing Not only to develop a jazz feel but just other styles outside of jazz They're still so much implied that you can't get from just playing straight patterns Yeah, and like my buddy Stanton Moore We did a whole show together Several years ago where he talked about his New Orleans influence I talked about my Jamaican influence and how they both influenced each other But there's those that in in between the cracks type feel so That's another important thing that you can get from understanding straight for swung pulses So Lloyd is pretty much credited as the creator of the ska beat some other Jamaican musicians might say oh it was Winston Grenin. It was this guy. It was this guy, but I truly believe it was Lloyd His sound is undeniable his influence is undeniable Anybody that's ever played the music is Basically copying Lloyd. I know I do. It's like sure Anybody that understands traditional Jamaican ska and the feel of what became Everything after that it came from Lloyd nibb. So when you start with the with the very first style of music that came out of Jamaica it is ska and Ska at the time when you think about what was happening politically Jamaica's independence in 1962 It was a very celebratory time. It was a happy time Which clearly reflects in the style of the music of ska So Lloyd told me the story that while he was recording tunes with coxswain with Clement Dodd at studio one Um coxswain just said let's change up the beat Let's let's try to give it a different feel because like I was saying Everything before that were like boogie woogie shuffles so Lloyd came up with the signature Inside-out groove of what a shuffle would be put it on the hi hats and became the ska beat in wicked beats I Demonstrate a very thorough breakdown of the ska pattern that I'm referring to so if if people aren't familiar with it you know, they can check it out, but No other style of drumming before Lloyd created this pattern Nobody else was doing this. So this drum pattern was essential it was it was a major factor in what created ska and Why ska feels the way it feels. It's a very it's a very dancey feel. It's very upbeat the Snare and the snare cross stick that scas pretty much especially traditional ska. It's always played with a cross stick It's not played later styles get into hitting the snare drum with a stick like a backbeat but this is a two and four cross stick and two and four bass drum in unison against a very fun open swishy swing hi-hat pulse and Then Lloyd would do all these fun accents which you hear are just like clearly influenced from Latin music and those those different cowbell kind of patterns that he pioneered on the hi-hat no other drummers were doing that before Lloyd nibb nobody in the States Nobody anywhere else that I know could take credit for what Lloyd was doing on the drum set in Creating this style and I even joke to some players that aren't familiar with what even the ska pattern sounds like or What these accents and writing the bell of the hi-hat sound like when you listen to rush and you listen to YYZ And you hear Neil Neil get to the ride and he's playing that pattern The broken up bell pattern. Yeah, that is a very staccato pattern and a rhythm that Lloyd would throw in his ska beat So even if he was just doing Swung like a like a eighth note feel he would play this cool bell pattern In so many of the tunes like one off the top of my head You can listen to simmer down, which is a classic ska tune I think came out in 64 and the lead singer on that is Bob Marley and that was before Bob was a Superstar this was early early the whalers. It wasn't even called Bob Marley in the whalers in the 60s It was just the whalers and it was Bunny whaler Peter Tosh and Bob Marley and all three lead singers You know became reggae icons and superstars And we just recently lost Bunny whaler. I had the honor Yeah, get getting to spend time with Bunny and just he was amazing But anyway Lloyd told me the story that Coxson was saying let's change up the beat. Let's do something That's different. That's our own and boom the ska beat was created on the spot right there and from then on Through that era of that music into the mid 60s It was a combination of Lloyd's signature ska groove and then still those kind of boogie woogie Blue beat I call them blue beat shuffles Where a guys guys are almost playing a us shuffle on the ride or the hi-hat But hitting that cross stick on two and four and unison with the bass drum Which is much different of a feel than drummers in the States were doing even with boogie woogie like you'd have guys playing four on the floor with the kick Versus just a unison cross stick and bass drum accent on two and four. It's a very different feel Yeah, for sure. Now, can I ask you to were they in the studio at this point with the I guess it would just be considered ska where they Applying as many, you know heavy reverbs and delays that reggae is kind of I say quote-unquote reggae You know overarching term that it's become famous for with like the the super long echo was that mean used yet? No No, not yet. Not yet that we'll get we'll we're gonna get to that but the the recordings of ska were very much Just pure it was live, you know, you'd hear some horns like out of tune It was just live these these guys were they were recording on the spot. It was like the wrecking crew They would just do these tunes They didn't spend all day on one song that Lloyd would tell me back in the day in the 60s He would do a session with coxswain and then as soon as he was done He'd run over to Duke Reads and then Prince Buster would see him driving in the street and say hey come to my studio after I got songs for you to do so that's awesome the thing is what people need to research the scottelites and the players in the scottelites all of them the The rhythm section both Lloyd's Lloyd Brevet and Lloyd nib and then you add Don Drummond on trombone Roland Alfonso Tommy McCook Ernest Ranglin on guitar Johnny Dizzy more on trumpet. So these guys were heavily influenced by jazz and you can hear that in their melodies and their solos They were telling you a story. They were melodic. It wasn't extremely technical But what it made up for in that respect it had all the feel and the expression in the world And that's another thing that drew me to the music not only the feel but what they had to say Yeah, you know, I love that early on you said that they were obviously influenced heavily by like, you know Western music and jazz and blues But like you also mentioned that then ska and then into the further, you know iterations of it influenced the whole rest of the world. So it's kind of this give and take of like They're they're taking things that motivate them in a certain way that that influence them in a certain way And then they give it right back and that changes the the face of music.  So it's it's really cool that they had such a huge impact People borrow from their influences all the time, you know, it's like everybody so many people have said, you know The best musicians steal and but the the difference is they make it their own and that's what Jamaica did They they took all of these styles. They fused them together and created their own Their own signature style, which then like you said influenced the rest of the world like we wouldn't have the police We wouldn't have the clash culture club You know, I'll get to all that more of the modern bands heavily influenced by Jamaican. So Back to the 60s. So now Now you're listening to this style of music that's super upbeat It feels great people can't stop dancing to it and now here comes the introduction To rock steady, which is the next style that started to come before reggae So you have all these People in the dances dancing and they want to break, you know, it's like give me a slow jam You know, you don't go to the club and then you're just always dancing to the same tempo You've got to change it up or Even in modern day you walk into a club whether it's like an edm thing or a hip hop thing or what or funk or disco As soon as that dj drops it or drops the tempo to a slower thing. Everyone's like, oh damn so That's that's basically when how rock steady came into play Where it was time to kind of slow things down and give it a cooler sound The characteristics of the bass and the guitar and the drums the whole rhythm section Vibe changed and it was such a perfect compliment and the really really deep Deep conscious stuff didn't come into play until reggae was coined Um scon rock steady. We're both happy music rock steady, you know lyrics It's almost similar to like 50s doo-wop. It's it's love songs and it's it's got such a cool sound and You know joe isaac's another Major pioneer as far as rock steady drumming goes. He was One of the house drummers for studio one That feel was the perfect balance and again you can say, okay What's the difference between scott drumming and rock rock steady drumming and there's a major major difference scott drumming had that Open pulse on the hi-hat that open closed pulse Kind of swung kind of straight the bell accents his Lloyd's Lloyd nibs fills were textbook like the vocabulary of scott drumming is just Lloyd all day The buru style of his drumming Which stanton actually called me about and said yo i'm blown away by the the buru stuff you're doing It's so slick and it just was awesome that He but I wasn't surprised that he noticed that I said awesome man. I said dude. I'm glad you're I'm glad you're loving that then So that's what even started the conversation. He was so intrigued by it. He's like man I've never even like heard that approach before and I just say it's Lloyd I got it from Lloyd and that's just straight up So it's so exciting in those fills. So the buru style drumming Which I mentioned earlier was played by a group of drummers playing different percussion instruments. Lloyd took the bass drum and the toms and the snare drum to create the whole group in on the kit and He incorporated that in between the scoff feel So when you go back and listen to anything Lloyd did with the scotta lights, you're going to hear right away These fills i'm talking about so in rock steady That wasn't so much there So it's more stripped down basically or it it was it was very stripped down rock steady It pretty much gave birth to the one drop which everyone credits to reggae But yeah, the in rock steady is that's when we said, okay, look Let's stop the swishy open high hats. Let's tighten up the high hats. Let's give a straight eighth note pulse It's gone. It's gone. It's come and then it's dancy. It's light Um, the carly barrett high hat, you know variations those those worn apart of the rock steady vibe rock steady was very stripped down Straightforward it's funny guys that come to me and they're like, yo I can't understand. I can't wrap my head around this reggae feel like I need to hit the bass drum on beat one So Yeah, they they kind of they kind of have to get used to this inside out Pulse it's cool. You just said that so inside out pulse really that's referring to obviously Basically flipping it where you're not playing on the one, right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, so the one is empty And that's one of the myths of where the term one drop comes from there's and I love that We can talk about this now because there's a debate where people ask Do you count reggae on beat three of a bar or do you count it? Do you count it on two and four? No matter how fast it is or how slow it is it's one two three Four and I'm in that tempo. I'm counting that cross stick and kick on one two three Four and that's slow. We can get even slower if it's fast once two three four once boom Boom. Yeah, boom. So When I did the dvd, I was explaining You know one of the myths of it being called a one drop is because there's only one drop in the bar Which is on beat three and a lot of people connect to that when I talk to my jamaican influences about these styles of music They'll all say The same common thing The main difference between those three styles of ska rock steady and reggae Would be tempo It helps define what was going on. You have ska, which is your upbeat dancy rock steady, which Time to slow things down in the dance halls. It's a it's a cooler field to dance to Even in ska they one of the style of dancing is called skanking, you know and yeah what the What the guitar player is doing on up beats is Skanks the piano horns skanks on the upbeat So if they're all on up beats, then it's clearly two and four are your down beats are your back beats Instead of thinking of if you're counting it is a Beat three in the bar then two and four are now your up beats. You know what I mean?  Those are those are down beats. So Again, it's if the feels right and you're playing it with the right intention Then the debate isn't that hardcore But in reality, I like to say it and the way I count it off the way carly listen uh When you get to reggae those real deep slow like burning spear tunes or Or any of the slow bob marley tunes It's one two Bats Boom boom and we're in. Yeah, it's not one. He you don't hear carly going one two One two three four, you know, it's not like that. So no, we're keeping we're keeping the quarter nopal slow in reggae So I definitely like to say It's two and four. That's the traditional way It's starting faster and slowing it all the way down, but you're still playing it on two and four Yeah, and what what you just did there though kind of you mentioned it earlier, but I think it's There's the classic and I guess you said Lloyd nib it goes back to him He was like the prototype but those the fill in is very iconic where Even on like, you know very famous bob marley album or something you can start it and it's And then the next song is that dude The next song they're they're really I mean a lot of songs start with the fill in which is kind of an iconic thing Definitely and those fills are so signature and they start really from Lloyd carly will even say If if you was still here, I learned from watching Lloyd nib Slide done bars gonna say Santa's gonna say horse mouth is gonna say all these legendary reggae players Are all gonna say they were all under the school of Lloyd nib just like myself And that's where I developed a lot of my roles from even before I got like really deep into reggae I was kind of more into scoffers and all the phrasings and the fills That Lloyd was doing and the crack on the snare and the setups again A lot of those melodies, especially with the traditional scon the 60s They're very jazzy. So Lloyd was able to play As groovy and as swinging as hard as he was But have that attitude his cross stick. Oh my Lloyd taught me how to do the way he does his cross stick I've never seen anybody do it like that. I've Totally stole that from Lloyd like so much of that. I can't say enough about what I got from him But yes, those reggae fills for sure became just signature Yeah, especially when carly came out like there were other drummers that Did amazing things But carleton carly sound was I think the epitome of what anybody thinks of when they think of reggae drumming. So When you have these at this point three genres, we'll call it ska jamaican ska rock steady and reggae Would would one band who's playing ska not ever play rock steady or would these be You'd be playing all three genres in one night at the dance hall ska and rock steady were primarily grouped together I feel especially through the 60s And then reggae was kind of its own beast when that took over Now before we move further on into reggae just kind of like in this, you know Let's call it the origins What was like a drum setup like because again, Jamaica, it's not like you're in America where there's all these huge brands It's not even like you're in Europe where there's Massive manufacture like where would they Were there jamaican brands? Where would they be getting the drums? Would it be imports? How would that work? in the 60s They're they were playing, you know Old Ludwigs that you know Gretsch just whatever they could get their hands on the one important thing to realize too It's music from the ghetto So it's not like everyone was just like flossing the brand new drums and cymbals in the high end You know the ska sound and the rock steady sound was a wide open sound It was it was like a jazz whether it was a big band or a small group It had that kind of sound to it the snare Would have a crack the snare would ring it was open the cross stick would breathe it wouldn't sound completely Dead and gated and muffled um everything was open and natural and it really wasn't until reggae hit that You you hear the signature like put a chamois over the snare or the the heads are so Beat up and and broken that there's just like five layers of tape over the heads and everything's very but not only did that just work out because People were playing on the gear that they had but it also sonically defined this music where The space and the discipline as a player comes in to play where When you're listening to a lot of reggae records, especially roots reggae Everything is very tight in the drums. It's they're not ringing the toms aren't taking up, you know 10 bars after the fill is done It's the the snare will Will be either very dead And you're and fat sounding or it'll have the carly sound which almost sounds like a timbali And I even talk about that and I show two examples of different like this is my 60s era drum set full-on classic four piece open No, muffle then you get to reggae and now i'm dampening the head um the toms I usually use two different snares one a fat snare one a ring tight snare and a timbali also symbol wise There were guys that you know, we're playing on crack cymbals It's because there wasn't there wasn't the money to get Brand new cymbals or whatever was in the studio is what was being used on this record. So That also became another sound. You don't hear a lot of Big fills and then a cymbal crash every four bars in reggae that Again comes into play with the discipline of understanding that music There's this stereotype where you have to hit like a lot of splash cymbals and crashes and that's like That's a way more bastardized version of what people think reggae drumming is Then what authentic reggae is like when you see me in a reggae setting and I know i'm not playing any ska I don't even use a ride cymbal like none None of the legends that I learned from are using Ride cymbals in roots reggae It's your it's you want it to be tight and you're playing the time on the hi hats that can be manipulated by opening and closing And how tight you're squeezing them but on a ride It's just so out of character To be doing that. I mean you don't really hear much ride in any of this music and but Everything you're saying is about it being like a part of the vibe. It's like you watch old videos or anything And it's like it's usually kind of a In a good way kind of a broken down looking drum set With cracked cymbals, but it's a part of the vibe and they're usually in like a studio with like 35 people standing around Yeah, you know, it's like it's a feel Uh, and it's just great very much and and that that's a good segue now to explain what now That we're jumping into reggae Naya bingi drumming is Such an important aspect The whole marriage between the rastafarian culture and naya bingi drumming This is a a very deep spiritual religious ceremony. That's happening and By the smoking and chanting And having these these drums Playing in a group it could be three drummers It could be 20 and it's heavy heavy heavy feeling And it's the heartbeat literally the heartbeat pattern of the bingi drumming boom boom. Yeah boom boom chat chat boom boom Boom boom and that tempo Can be faster. It could be slower. So It's a correlation a direct correlation of bingi drumming and fills and phrasing the lead drum the repeater the ket it's It's like hand in hand when you hear me play the bingi drum And the way I phrase fills on a bingi drum If I pick up sticks and play the drum set I'm gonna phrase fills that way too. So there's a vocabulary that gets established in a marriage So it's really important when you understand reggae drumming that you also Are aware of naya bingi drumming and how deep that is to me. It's kind of fascinating how Rastafarianism which is a religion is so closely tied to a music where it doesn't happen I mean you think of like gospel music or something here and you know around the world But and I'm sure there's tons of examples of it But when people think of and it might be incorrect, but when people think of reggae they typically think of Rastafarians and things like that like it's it's just a unique Um, how connected they are Is pretty wild. Yeah, so reggae you said 70s were we're basically entering that time and Things changed it obviously like you said it blew up and the world, you know kind of began to notice it Fair enough, right? Definitely. Definitely. You had just songs that an artist that were just undeniably Just touching the rest of the world But guys like chris blackwell and other key players that were able to bring awareness To these artists, you know that might not have ever been known outside of jamaica It was because of guys like chris blackwell that were able to say hey I'm going to introduce you guys To the to the rest of the world to the uk to the us like and that's when other people started paying attention And catching on to this is like turning into a form of almost pop music. Mm-hmm Yeah, like you said with like the police and those bands and like I mean, it's just I feel like it's that the skank It's the beat and that just really translates I mean, it's it's happy music that everyone likes to listen to obviously there's slower songs, but it's got such a good feel to it It's kind of um, you know, it's a no-brainer that it struck a chord with everyone Oh, yeah, even you know, the rolling stones and for sure with bob and peter tosh and just these world Like superstars working with these jamaican artists, but as far as what was happening with now drumming you had The roots reggae feel Which is the one drop and the stepper's pattern and the rockers pattern which I kind of coin I coined as a rockers pattern Because it feels like a rock beat So some guys will talk about rockers as a as a genre And that's fine. The way that I refer to rockers is taking the beat And you're not playing a one drop anymore Which would be for people that don't know the cross stick and the bass drum and unison on two and four or beat three however you feel it It's it's now playing like a rock beat where the bass drum, let's say for instance is on beat one and And three and your snare drums on two and four. So you have that that boof boof five boof five one two three four and then your skank so That's another style that now opened up the floodgates for the reggae feel Now you have stuff you can take from scott. You can take stuff from rock steady You can take stuff from roots reggae now. You got rockers style. You got the rubba dub style This is before rappers were rapping you had guys in jamaica It's called toasting it was just such a massive influence on the culture before we go too far further I want to you mentioned scientist Um, I grew up in high school loving. I think it was king tubby meets scientist um And i'm sure there's there the names of those like dub albums were awesome There's just so many like that Is now a good time in the timeline to maybe pause and talk about dub music and I I kind of think of it as engineers being the like Musicians the stars it's it's sort of a unique type of music which maybe is like a precursor in in uh, I don't want to offend anyone But maybe a cooler version of like modern djs dude check this out dub was the birth of the remix Uh-huh. Can you define dub before we go because maybe someone out there doesn't know so so lay it out as what it is first dub is the engineer manipulating a reggae tune to give the bass and drums even more in the forefront and add effects and drops and filters to the horns or the vocals or the guitars or any top line things that were happening Would be affected or muted and really let the bass and drums shine and drive the track It's a remix and it's the engineer saying this is now my time to shine a lot of jamaican artists and producers We're releasing the a side would be the vocal version And the b side would be the dub version That's awesome So so there would be releases and that's why my group that i'm currently in gill miggs and roge We our formula is that we do our instrumental version and it's a dub But then we also get vocalists to come in and do a vocal version of the tune So we kind of start the other way around we start as a pure instrumental rhythm And then we get people to do a vocal after Instead of starting with the vocal version of a tune and then remixing that so But we're it's just like a complete salute to the jamaican culture And how things were working in the 70s with that and even before the 70s like when you have a A producer like king tubby or lee perry or scientist They're hearing a tune And they're saying Now i'm gonna remix this song And this is how i hear this remix But this is all before automation too. So you have to realize that The art form Of dub was These guys were like octopuses like they had to move a fader And do a mute and do a filter sweep and add a delay and add a reverb They're all doing this in real time. This isn't okay. Let's run it back and now do the delays on the snare Now let's run it back and put the filters on the hi-hats This is all being done in real time with analog gear the nobody else Taught these guys that they invented it now and for non engineer most people know this but automation obviously the gill just mentioned refers to Like you do a passive automation where you can ride the fader in like uh in like touch mode in pro tools or Latch or there's there's these modes where you're moving the faders and then you hit stop and it's gonna it's writing These moves you just made so every time you play it's going to be doing the exact same thing so obviously what you're referring to is is That that didn't exist.  It's so important to say the octopus armor. You're moving everywhere It's like Exactly and and if something got messed up in the take and that's why actually that's pretty common you'll hear Like good mistakes or you'll hear like legendary hip-hop producers like like Rizzo from Wu Tang it's like he'll say oh that beat ended up being like a mistake Because something you know was in record mode and it shouldn't have been and it ended up blah blah blah But I kept it. So yeah, sometimes there's things that were like Good mistakes that were stuck on the track because they didn't go back and redo it. It was what you got at that time was what you got um Scientists now, you know, he's he's not afraid to use digital stuff. He he's very particular on what he'll work on What console he'll work on but he'll still record into pro tools But it's so fun to watch him like even with our stuff He'd do like two passes of each tune. So he do he do a dub and then When he heard it, he'd be a little more familiar with the tune And then he just run another one But it was it's such a pleasure to watch him and see how it's done So With with that dub influence people ask. Oh, is that the same as dubstep? It's like no dubstep is Dubstep is a totally different genre and style of music Of course, there's some influence from where dub came from But yeah that that again dub was really the birth Of of the remix. Yeah, and the the iconic like I mentioned before the super long the the snare delay Echo that will go for super long. There'd be I feel like there's always a lot of trumpet and horn involved in a lot of dub Um Those sounds and just these these the which I think that Those effects across the board Yeah As an engineer And as you are yourself and most now modern-day drummers have some engineering experience and all that stuff But it's just that really pushed forward engineering I feel like an adding effects and going like way over saturating everything and realizing wow, that sounds awesome You know keep it exactly there are no rules when it comes to that and it was the effects shine the guys using the effects shine um But again, like I tell purists or guys that are like I can't believe he muted that beautiful snare drum or I can't believe he killed those toms. It's like yo This is the sound. This is deliberate. It's it's not like oh We made a mistake sorry to the purists that are afraid to like do anything outside of The norm when I hear a king tubby mix I know it's they had their own sound like when when I hear max roach and tony williams I know who's who when I hear a tubby dub and a scientist dub and a prince jammy dub or a mad professor dub I know who's who they all had they all have their sound and their take on it And um, it's an amazing thing. But yeah, those filters and those delays. I'm I'm in love with that stuff I I can't get enough of that. Yeah, it's so analog and just awesome. But um Okay, so for the sake of time, let's chug forward here So we were in the 70s dub is happening obviously, but reggae Bands are popping up in the world that are influenced by it obviously the clash Um, but I don't think that those bands come off as like bastardizing that type of music because I love the clash. I love the police. I mean they they do it Well, yeah, do you know how reggae players felt about that happening their their style spreading to the rest of the world Yeah, I can't speak for everybody but from the ones that I know directly and and what I've seen also in interviews or reading about They were they loved it. They were very into the influence like lee perry produced the clash went to jamaica and worked with lee perry And he actually kind of insulted How bad they were at reggae, which is funny, you know, like it's but at the same time They had a charm to their sound like when the clash plays reggae. It doesn't have to sound like sly and robbie It doesn't have to sound like the whalers. It doesn't have to sound like roots. Radix. They they had a charm You could tell they loved the music, but they played it. They're kind of sloppy punk punk rock way, but one very important bridge to talk about to getting there is the The era of two-tone ska. So from the late 70s The mid to late 70s. There was a strong of course jamaican relationship with the uk and a lot of those bands Were loving reggae, but they were also Filled with angst and punk rock energy So now you have two-tone ska, which is faster The driving beat of the bass drum through what I call a stepper's pattern. It's riding through And the guitar skinks are still there But the main the the primary bands that were a part of the two-tone movement The english beat the specials. Yeah, you read my mind madness The selector there's even a very iconic two-tone live album called dance craze And it's got all the checkerboard imagery and the two-tone and the scott the the skank and rude girl That is all Started from 60 scott influence, but now we're in the late 70s And like I said, they have reggae to choose from they have rock steady and scott It's all it's all been established already plus they're mixing it with punk I had the honor of playing with dave wakeling who was the lead singer of the english beat like Talk about another pioneer of that style of music that now i'm in his band for almost three years i'm young All the dudes in the band had like a nickname for me. They call me young drummy or or young buck and like it was amazing to play that style of music with the guy that Founded and created that style and for people that don't know the english beat You've heard their music in countless movies and radio Yeah all over the radio and even sting is wearing an english beat shirt in a couple police videos Like don't stand so close to me. You see the beat girl that iconic Beat rude girl, which is an influence from jamaica, but it's it was a very like uk thing Yeah, and the little hats just even the style exactly I saw them i saw The rx bandits open up for the english beat I was in high school. I mean it was years ago, but just unbelievable. I mean and That's another rx bandits or another modern band that uses that kind of reggae style. Um, which is that's the third wave. Yeah Yeah, exactly. So yeah that imagery and again you have the culture So with you know, you have the imagery a very strong rastafari then the last wave Of scott a hit which is referred to as third wave scott and you know bands in the 80s were playing third wave You had guys like bands like operation ivy um Skank and pickle like Oh man, there's just so many but then bands in the 90s That started to break on like commercial rock radio like bands like real big fish and of course no doubt So bands like no doubt really opened up another um Just kind of awareness to to reggae and scott because guen and interviews and and tom and all those and tony and adrian They would say we love scott. We love two tone scott. We love reggae. We love bands like fishbone like No doubt wouldn't exist our sound our style Would not exist if it wasn't for these bands that came before us and these styles of music And then there's cali roots reggae Which is that mixture of that kind of sublime sound and which now miguel from my group gillmigs and raj miguel who was part of that original sublime crew and kind of helping create that california Sound that people refer to so i've had i've had this amazing You know opportunity to work with so many of these legends and all the different eras of this these styles of music Well to keep it and and and then i mean unbelievable and just to back up to that third wave to keep it drum related I always think of a lot of orange county drums and percussion a lot of ocdp drums You know that was like which are amazing drums, but it's like that was the and i remember I remember looking it up one time like i think i was in like grade school I was like, you know, how much are these drums and i wanted to like piece it together and you could like kind of Price it out it was like oh the kid i want is seven thousand dollars or something right right like that but um And very clean and and like sharp honestly, maybe it's a contrast to like the original Gritty drum set of broken cymbals and stuff to then have this I mean, you know a travis barker. I know he's not reggae. You know what? I mean orange county like $15,000 drum set with sparkling a custom cymbals Right kind of a polar opposite side on on gear, but they had those you know Like adrian young with like the jelly bean kind of multicolored kit Um, yep. Yeah stylistically. It's different. I feel like the influence stort copeland had on drummers um, he single-handedly bridged like roots reggae to like two tone modern rock uh Almost progressive rock in a way. Um But the sound of his snare and then of course the splashes I think that's where a lot of people disconnect and They connect that with like authentic roots reggae But it's really like this strong stored copeland influence because the police was such a massive Band still just like their hits are played all the time everywhere And that drummer just like you'd hear carly with bob marley and carly wasn't the only drummer that played with bob marley He's definitely the most iconic and that sound is signature now bands in the two tone ska and the third wave ska They're now like well, wait a minute. We have this modern gear We're playing loud distorted guitars We're playing with rock bands and punk bands and we're fusing punk and rock into this style with a reggae and a ska influence Let's just do our thing with it And of course the sound of the snares and the cymbals had to cut that that was another influence now you're competing with like Big distortion guitars and like a marching band of horns blowing, you know Yeah, and I mean with stewart copeland you gotta It's like it gets like a caveat of like He's also like a virtuoso Amazing not that these other guys aren't but he's special stewart copeland as a drummer is just like His ability is Very very very high. I mean in in that era of just like he he's up there with the best of him For sure for sure. So that's worth Worth noting. Yeah, completely So getting to you and the modern, you know, what you're doing, which is being basically a great ambassador to Reggae music and like I said at the very beginning Where people may think why aren't you getting like a traditional Jamaican reggae drummer? It's like I think now everyone understands that gill is A real deal traditional reggae drummer.  Where can people Like where can people get it all that good stuff? I mean, I I feel like that was unless unless I'm jumping the gun But that was like an unbelievable and it's not over, right? Yeah to back up a little bit and say you said the third wave It's still people are still playing reggae all the time. I mean and scott. It's it's still going Yeah, and and then the marriage to hip hop and dance hall and you know, there's And the electronic influence in the electronic era So I feel like we covered a lot of ground of course There was a lot of other stuff I could have mentioned a lot of other names I could have mentioned this was a great conversation to understand where things came from How they developed and and with me not even being behind a drum set like ideally I can do I can do this conversation sitting behind a drum set and literally like playing everything for you But um, it's important to educate people just like I said with jazz There's a big difference of how you're going to play in a bebop group in a bebop setting Then you would in a big band or if you're playing a ballad with brushes Then you're not just going to you know step all over the song and and play busy and fill things up It's the discipline and reggae for a drummer is such a huge part of understanding the feel of it Um, because and that's one last thing I'd even want to end with where drummers might say oh That's easy. You're just doing the same thing over and over again Good point. It's so much deeper and it's so much more than that Plus, there's a lot of variations that are really difficult So I hope this gets people to want to dig in and kind of check out these pioneers that i'm talking about and Even carlton barrett like the the magic of his hi-hat patterns I I refer to carly as the tony williams of reggae like What he did his phrasings his setups his sound god It's you know, it's it's no different than studying a pioneer like bonham with rock and elvin jones with jazz It's carly and loyd those guys. They all need to be studied equally The cool thing is is I mean, uh, there's so many great genres of music out there, but it's it's reggae and All of these sub categories gem like scott all this it's really fun to listen to for everyone So it's like, you know your wife or husband or girlfriend or parents Like most people like reggae, you know what I mean like most people enjoy that kind of music Where is if you're listening to like, um, well as a former as a member of dillinger escape plan before Your mom might not like dillinger escape plan as much, you know That's a little heavy. Yeah, it's harsh exactly and and there's a time and a place because look I'm not always in the mood to hear that kind of music let alone play it So whatever mood you're in let that cater to what you want to listen to i'm i'm not always going to listen to dillinger and No, dillinger is awesome though. I mean, I should say that as a kid I got a second hand copy of uh calculating infinity and it's just like, you know, it's nuts. It's not it's insane It's it's it's totally nuts and and it's amazing and it's some it's musicianship at its highest level and Some people might hear it and like say it's unlistenable But any musician with any kind of technical understanding would say That is almost impossible to play perfectly set. It is extremely hard to play but but because reggae comes off as Quote unquote easier doesn't mean that it's it is easier. It just means it's I mean, it's a different feel It's a different vibe which which it takes a lot of skill for a man like you to have Those are two extremes. So you've you've got it figured out for sure. Thank you. Appreciate it. Absolutely. Well, um, you can go to gillondrums.com g i l on drums.com or gill sharon s h a r o m e Dot com Gil this is just awesome everyone should check out wicked beats And gill's latest project gill miggs and roge Um On that note gill. Thank you so much, man. I mean we kind of met through instagram and just sort of Went back and forth and i'm so happy to have you on the show Dude, thank you. Thank you again and thanks to the listeners. I hope you guys enjoyed this all my socials are just at gill sharon Hit me if you guys have any questions or want to know more about this and you can keep an eye out for all the other projects I have In reggae and everything else I do outside of reggae Awesome. Thank you gill. Take care. Thanks If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history And please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning


Winnie Mandela Hospital at least, very sick in ICU at Millpark Hospital. Winnie Madicca's Ella Mandela was admitted to hospital at the weekend with a kidney infection, but is expected to make a full recovery. According to her spokesman the 81-year-old had complained of a loss of appetite and that one of her legs was painful. She was taken to the Millpark Hospital on Sunday, said Victor Dlamini. Upon admission it was discovered that she had an infection that had affected her kidneys. She is expected to make a full recovery and should spend approximately a week at the hospital, said Dlamini in a statement issued on Tuesday night. He said that Madicca's Ella Mandela was being visited by family and was in high spirits.


Hello, YouTube. I want to play a game. A game with ten chapters. An experience that only you have the power to begin and end. The rules of the game are very simple. In the coming weeks, very special episodes of EFAP movies are going to release. Episodes chronicling the adventures of the crew through the Saw universe. When he peeks around the corner, he just plays the song, but it turns off. And when he goes back, he's like... He turns the tape player off. It stops the song. Up! He's hurt you. He's not in right now. That is funny. Okay, Jinx will do a little trolling. That's what that was. He's not smart. It was your surprise birthday party. For those who are unfamiliar, Saw is a franchise about a friendly man who is trying to test people. Testing all kinds of people from all walks of life. Testing in strange and specific traps. Traps that they may or may not be able to escape. If they succeed, they are provided their freedom. If not, they face another fate.  After all, how you play the cards you are dealt is all that matters. Also, there are many cup storylines that go nowhere. Eight YouTubers will attempt to survive one of the most devious traps I've ever constructed. That of surviving the entire franchise. Even the new one, the 10th one, the Saw 10, ain't that nifty. This was actually movies that were coming out consistently around Halloween time, right? For like one per year for ages. Every year. One through seven was one per year.  That is one of the most absurd transitions ever. Darren Lynn Bathman. Bravo. Crispy. Crispy? I don't know. Rick didn't kill Ivan. Ivan made his own choice. Oh gosh. You're all bad.  I slapped him for that.  Starring Muller. One of the doctors used to be like, what are you doing?  That would be a great reveal. The tape is playing. He's like, Jeremy, Tom, you guys are the systems out there. They're both dead already. Maybe Jigsaw is an aged up Kevin McAllister. He changed his ideas. Go ahead. Destroy it. I will. You can't stop me. Tell my victims I love them. Rags. Thinking about the last thing I said to my daughter. You told your daughter that Santa Claus wasn't real, but we all know that obviously he makes presents up here in the morning. Wait, wait, wait. See. Oklahoma where the wind comes sweeping down the plain. I'm going to give you a hint as to where I've hidden the key. So listen carefully. It is in Boston, Massachusetts. You have four minutes to get there.   Also, so sick.    Now you do that. Now you do that. Now that you're free. I already hate this is my least favorite already. All the music. Oh, here comes the twist. And I'm sure this will be a good one.  I think these traps aren't exactly fair. What is blue blood? I've never. Yep. It's about an alien race of police officers that have blood. And that's how you can tell. If I may offer one positive. The cinematography stood out. No, you may not. I want to play a game. And that game is range shadow legends. One of the most ambitious.  It's like one look at him and be like, yeah, no. Yeah. Hey, why didn't you trap the drunk driver instead of the grieving father? Just a question. Oh, he was a slave. Oh, yeah. We would have been through two traps at this point. Two? Five. I don't know. Shit. Nothing's happening. Metal commander. Jesus Christ.  Basically the anti-life equation. Yep. So it's between breaking your hands and getting cut in half. You know what? I think it's pretty straightforward. I don't care.  I can see it just from looking at you.  With YMS. Yes. Looks very similar. Strahm and Hoffman are two different people. Oh my God, right. Strahm and Hoffman. Get a good scan of their faces now. Either you're not confused later.  Why would they do this to us? He's relishing this. My God, he's jerking off right now. Stop that. Wow, you live here? Oh, God. It's a million dollar apartment in Los Angeles. Every time you hit me, a device stimulates my prostate. What is this? A torture room for ants?  I wrote the book of saw. It was me. If this is what you're coming to sleep with people, the fair stuff, you should really not hold that. It doesn't matter who's called it, buddy. This is bad news. He just goes, hello? I put on a different voice. Hello, this is someone else. Hello, this is the doctor's secretary. Two.  Why did you do that? Three. Why am I never facing the camera when I start this? He's got a flyer for the dramatic effect. Four. I don't want to play anymore. Five. Why is it so lures? It looks blurry. That is really weird. Six. Do you think they thought he will be dead, but you know, one more, one more for the road and it'll be set up at the end of his death.  Seven more. I think maybe Lee Winnell thought it would be really funny to see them write themselves at that point. This is my last film.  Good luck, fuckers. So that's the thing. I'm very surprised that they did do is say that wasn't Jigsaw, that was his brother, Jogsaw, and he's just killed that. Jogsaw. 3D.  What kind of trap is this? What is this crap? What are the gnomes? Those are perfectly good gnomes. Why were they gnomes? Jigsaw. John, just please let me go. Please. Did you know that pigs are highly compassionate animals? That's got nothing to do with this, John. Spiral from the book of Saw. Alright, best shot. Best shot. They shaked the camera. Did you see that? They were rumbling the camera. And finally, Saw 10. One by one, film by film. Episode by episode. The blues willpower and sheer sanity. You can witness this by tuning in at particular times throughout the month of Spooktober.  Abide by these rules. And perhaps you will survive, Halloween. The arc shall unfold over the course of these dates. Listen closely. October 1st. October 2nd. October 7th. October 11th. October 13th. October 18th. October 20th. October 24th. October 29th. And finally, October 30th. Oh, look at that. It sort of makes a little X, like the new one. If you fail to attend these EFAP movie events, I cannot guarantee your safety. So, make your choice.  Game over. Game over. Yeah. He said the thing.


So first, happy birthday, Thibault. So for me, it feels a bit like time travel into the past to be here, and I really remember my time here as being very formative. So I think of IHS as a luxury place for research, where the clock seemed to be stopped to leave the time to think. But it was also a pretty stressful time for me to be surrounded by so many bright minds. And I still remember our discussion at lunches, where you would ask me about my progress and the question that you had asked me at the previous lunch. And so then there was a discussion at the table where there were always pen and paper. And I could even find back traces of those discussions. And I must say it was not always trivial to converse those notes and those drawings into a mathematical equation. Anyway, so you know that since then I have changed research field. But in my mind, I didn't really change path because instead of addressing fundamental question about space like singularities and the origin of the universe, I am addressing no question about living systems. And I'm particularly interested by embryonic development and the role of the geometric arrangement of the cells in the embryo to code for the body plan. But today I will tell you about another research line, which is about microbes. So I think it's pretty impressive to think that in each of our bodies, so inside and outside of each of our bodies, there are about 100 times more microbes than there are stars in the Milky Way. In particular, the gut microbial communities are one of the most densely populated ecosystem known, which makes them very complex systems. So why? So microbial communities are important, in particular human-associated microbial communities, because they have been associated with, so yeah, I wanted also to give another number. So they are important basically because they are very numerous, so that's an indication. And it has been estimated that for each human cell in the body, there is one microbe. So we are literally working microbial communities. And also, from a more pragmatic point of view, it has been shown that for basically any kind of disease you can think of, from cancer to obesity, to even depression, an association between a unhealthy gut microbiota and those diseases. So there is still many puzzles to understand the causal relationship, but the association has been already observed. So from a theory, so there is, yeah, of using the long run, we hope to have personalized medicine based on our specific microbial communities, because it varies among people. From a perspective, a terrorist perspective, the long run goal in the field is to build predictive dynamical models of those microbial communities. So the type of question we want to address with these models are the following. So we want to understand how the community can be stable. So it's a big question to understand how so many different microbes interacting can form a stable system. But I won't be speaking about that today. We want to understand community structure, and I will come back to this later. But the basic idea is that we observe in across microbial communities that the composition is really dominated by rare species. So we have a few abandoned species, but the majority of the community is many different rare species. So why don't we could think naively that they would die and they would be killed by the strongest guys, but it's not the case. We want to understand the region of anterotype so very briefly, so plot doesn't show really well, but the idea is that if we represent in 2D the community composition, so if you choose wisely, you don't choose bacteria one, bacteria two, but you choose wisely a combination of those bacteria to represent this in the 2D in the plane. So each dot is a different individual, and we see that there are clusters occurring, saying that basically people belong to show different types of bacterial composition in the gut. And if you analyze this a bit in more detail, you see that these clusters correspond to different families of bacteria who are dominating the community. So then we want eventually to gain control, so in case you have, yeah, I don't want to go to the detail of the plot, but basically if you have a unhealthy composition, how should we perturb the system to go back to our healthy states? So before building models, basically we want to look at experimental data. So how do we do this? And for human gut microbiota, the way to go and was done by Lawrence David here, with whom I actually shared an office at some point, but I was not working on that, unfortunately at that time, but what he did for a year, he collected these tools for one year every day, and he sequenced the tool to have as a probe for the community composition of the gut flora. So the result is as follows. So for visualization purposes, I represented only five species at random, but he could distinguish about 100 different species across that year. And what we see basically is a stable state with fluctuation. So the fact that there are these straight lines is just sampling artifacts, and the fact that it's a log scale, so it's not very important, but we see basically fluctuation around the steady state. And so we did a literature search, and we could find only about 12 different time series of microbial communities that were taken for such a long time. But the communities were coming from different, they are very different types of microbial communities, so we have marine plankton, but we have also microbial communities coming from different body sites, and each time it looks like a steady state and with fluctuation around. Something that is also, so that's the time, the temporal dynamics. But we can also look at a snapshot, so it's not very visible, but basically what we plot, the second line is the abundance versus the rank. So the rank we just take at one time point, we look what's the most abundant bacteria, that's rank one, second most abundant rank two, et cetera. And we always see the same shape of this curve, and this is, so it has been rescaled here, so I'm sorry for that, but if we had put relative abundance, we could see on this curve that the vast majority of the bacteria account for less than 1% of the total composition. So this is called heavy-tailed rank abundance distribution, and it's not really understood why we observe this. So now in the theoretical ecology, people use Lotka-Volterra models to build dynamical models of these microbial communities. So I will give you a crash course on Lotka-Volterra models, but in view of the audience, I think I can be very fast. So the idea is that you have, it's like in an ecosystem, you have different species, so here we have rabbit and sheep, and these animals, they compete for the same resource, which is grass here, and we can transform that into a question. So very quickly, so we have R is the population of rabbits, so the rate of change of these rabbits. The first term is a growth term, so if we had only the growth term, we would get exponential growth, which is not realistic. Then you have the self-interaction, so the R-square term, and this is representing the fact that at some point the resources will be limited, so you will go to a steady state, and then you can incorporate the effect of the competition for the grass, that's also a negative term, which is coming from the sheep, and then you have the same equation for the sheep, but obviously the growth rate of the rabbits is higher because they reproduce like rabbits, and the interaction is more important on the rabbits from the sheep than reversely, because they are stronger. So this leads to nonlinear equations, and typically we will need to rely on numerical simulation because we cannot solve that analytically. Just a tiny specification, so if you have just one species, this would be modeled with the logistic equation. And now we go to a community with 100 species, so we generalize this type of equation, and we can also include, maybe I will use this, so we can include an immigration term, then we have the growth term, pairwise interaction between all the species, and because this is obviously influenced by the environment, we have extrinsic noise, so this term here is actually a noise term in the growth rate because it's linear in the growth rate, then we have here a noise term for the immigration process, and this represents the intrinsic noise which is due to the discrete nature of the microbes and the fact that the processes of birth and death are stochastic. So this is our basis to model microbial communities, and the question we address was, okay, everybody uses that, we have experimental data from microbial communities, can this generalized logcavolta model describe the experimental time series that I've shown you? And so to answer that question, we need to be more specific, so we need to characterize the noisy dynamics. So basically we have, as I told you, fluctuation around the steady state, and to characterize this, we did four different, we used four different characteristics, so I will go through them one by one. So the first one we consider, so we can, for each, that's supposed to be one species within a community, and we consider the size of the jump between two time points, and for each species, we computed the mean value of this jump, the absolute mean value of the jump, and we reported that as a function of the mean abundance of the species in a log-log plot, and what we see, so each point here corresponds to one species in the community, and we see that this fits well with a linear, so the exponent is almost one, and we see that in all our time series for all the communities. So this means that the fact that the dominant source of noise is the linear noise, which means that what is dominant in the more noisy thing in the system is the growth rate, and it makes sense we eat three times a day that this growth term is very noisy. And then we reported also, we computed the ratio between two successive time points so that we can capture the fact that these go up or down, and we made an Instagram of the ratio between two successive time points, so the mean of this distribution will always be one because we are around steady state, and to characterize the strength of the noise, we computed the variance of the distribution. So this ratio of the jump, they would fit well with a log-normal distribution, and we observed that the width of the distribution is around one, which means basically that you do big jumps, essentially. So from these two characteristics, we concluded that we need to use, the linear noise is dominant, and this noise should be large, which is not surprising, but then the next characteristic we looked at is we wanted to assess how much temporal structure there was in the time series, and for that we computed the power spectral density for each species, and we used the well-known fact that, okay, if you compute, so the temporal structure can be encoded by the autocorrelation, and we know that the flatter the autocorrelation is at the origin, the more temporal structure there is in your time series, and this correlates with the fact that you get a steeper power spectrum. So we can associate, and it's kind of a usage in the community to associate the slope of the power spectrum to associate a color. So if you have a white noise, you will have the flat power spectrum. If you have a pink noise, you will have a spectrum in one over S, so the slope is minus one. Brownian dynamics, you will have a slope of minus two, and we associate, this is really bad choice because the white noise is blue, the pink noise is pink, but the brown noise is green, so we use a scale where it's white, pink, brown, and the darker, the more temporal structure there is in the community. So for each community, so one dot is one species, and we see that like the slope, so the color of the noise for each species, when we plot that against the mean abundance of the species, we see that there is no correlation. So this might seem like not that interesting, why plotting that as a function of the mean abundance if we don't see any structure, but the thing is that if we know the in-silico time series with the GLV model, we see structure. So we see that the slope of the power spectral density correlates with the mean abundance, but not exactly, so it actually correlates with the mean abundance times the self-interaction, but self-interaction is something we don't have access to in the experimental data, we have access to the mean value of the species, but not the self-interaction. And this is actually due to the fact that there is a tradition in the field to always set the self-interaction to minus one. So if we put the self-interaction to minus one, we see that there is a destructor and it's not disturbed by the interaction between the slope and the mean abundance, basically we cannot explain what we have seen on the previous slide. So what we propose is that we need to use self-interaction which varies over the order of magnitude in the load-cavalta model to be able to reproduce the experimental characteristics. Okay, and the last characteristic we used is also related to a broad debate in theoretical ecology, and the debate is a community neutral, in a neutral, I'm not sure how to say, like is, do we have a neutral community or a community which is in the niche regime? So neutral theory says that the driving force in the ecosystem is stochasticity of the birth and death processes, while the niche theory states that the driving factor in setting the community structure is the interaction between the species. And we can test for neutrality of a time series by, I mean, there are several tests that exist and we have used two of them. So one is based on the, yeah, maybe it's a bit technical, so maybe we can save a bit of time if I go quickly through this and I don't go to the detail, but I'm happy to explain if someone is interested after. So we can use something based on the Kublack-Leibler divergence which is basically comparing two probability distributions and another one which is comparing, like which is testing the invariance under grouping of the community. So if you group species, like you say species one and species two, we put, we sum them together, we consider them as one group and species three, four, five, or we, like we change the grouping of the species. Neutral teres says that the result basically should be independent of this grouping because species are not special. There are no, I mean, it's not important the difference between the species. And basically for all, so all the time series, like we looked at that we found in the literature, we, for the two tests, we always obtain that it's in the niche regime. So like light stuff here. It doesn't look that good, so the colors don't go well so it's not that neat, but it's always niche and reddish for the other tests. So it's also a niche. So basically we propose a minimal model which is this logistic equation. So no interaction, no pairwise interaction. So the logistic equation for each species plus a large linear noise. And if we do, I mean we do in silico time series with this model, we can study the properties and they are really comparable with what we see experimentally. Even the niche character which could be think of being a bit surprising because here we don't make any difference. So we put the same growth rate and same self interaction for all species. We don't make difference between the species. But we have, so I'm just a little bit lying because what's something that we have imposed at first here is the rank abundance distribution. So you can, so to determine the steady state you can set this equal to zero so you don't take care of the noise. So you can, so we fix the growth rate in such a way that we observe. So the steady state is given by x i is g i over omega ee and minus sign. But basically we can choose the growth rate to impose this distribution of abundances. So that was a bit cheating. And this is saying that the species are not equal. So it's not surprising that we get niche even if there are no interaction between the species. So to summarize this, all like I put here, each column is different communities and we see always the same typical behavior of these communities. And okay, we, yeah, too much text, sorry. So basically at the observed time scale we can reproduce all these things with a logistic model. But so the message, we don't say that interaction are not important but we say that they are not important at the observed time scale. And we were still puzzled by this. We had to impose this rank abundance distribution which is not very natural. So we wanted to get that as an emergent phenomena. So that was like a follow-up stories. And basically, so for Lotka-Voldera model, it doesn't come up for free. Like this rank abundance, so the dominance of the rare species. But we know from kind of old work that these everyday distribution, they can come from self-organization. And more recently, it some approaches of ecosystem that were based on individual modeling approach. You get this heavy-tailed rank abundant distribution as an emergent phenomena. So we wanted to understand precisely what's important in the individual model approach to get this heavy-tailed distribution. And we realized that it was really the fact that the, so you simulate each microbes so you place the microbes on a grid basically and then you have kind of an automaton. This is this individual modeling approach. And the fact that you get this heavy-tailed comes from the finite size of the grid that you place the microbes on. So we wanted to mimic this finite size of the grid on the GLV model. And this is natural in the sense that we have access only to a limited amount of resources. So this, we added a maximal capacity which is mimicking the finite size of the grid and physically representing the fact that we have a global limit on the resources. So we split the term in our GLV equation. So basically the dead term and the growth terms. And we multiplied all the positive term by this global maximal capacity. So when you reach the maximal number of species possible in the system, all the growth term will be suppressed. And if we now do the simulation of our system like this, we get for free like as an emergent feature the fact that we have heavy-tailed abundance distribution. So basically to obtain, so to summarize, to obtain a predictive dynamical model, the next step is to go to more densely sample time series and to capture the interaction between the species because we know that bacteria, if you do, you grow them two species in the lab, you know they interact through the nutrients. So we know it plays an important role, but so far we don't see it in this experimental data. But the field is like exploding and there are many experiments being done. So I'm confident that we can progress a lot by having access to better time series and also it would be very nice to have access to experimental data about the, to measure the concentration of the nutrients and to get models where the nutrients are also explicitly modeled in the system and to have access to the spatial structure would be even better. And yeah, so there is still a lot of work to be done. So thank you for your attention. Thank you very much. The question is close to you. You mentioned 1972 paper by Bob May at the very beginning. Yes. Right? And that was the one about how, you know, how very can the group of competing species be and still be stable. Yeah, many in 1970. I remember reading this years ago and I've kind of forgotten the conclusion. Roughly speaking, it was that you can't have more species stably surviving than the number of... The number of nutrients, basically, I think. And what has happened to that conclusion in this way of looking at things? Has that disappeared entirely? Does nobody think about that anymore? Yes, yes, many people think about that problem. And so now I cannot reconstruct the story quickly in my mind, but so it has been overcome. I don't remember exactly how, but so the basic conclusion is that I think I have in mind that if you have like three nutrients and three species, I mean, you cannot have, if you have only three nutrients, you cannot have more than three species or something. I don't know. I cannot... What was the conclusion? Yeah, but... It's back to that random matrices. Yeah. Yeah, I think I cannot... But I mean, in the considerations that you were going through here, the question of what these guys are eating, how many different things they were eating, doesn't come in. No, because it's an effective model, where the pairwise interactions are supposed to represent how these species compete for the same resource. So typically, if some microbes they can produce some nutrients for, that can be helpful or the letter use for other species. So it's... Yeah, but I really cannot... In the end, the conclusion that you reached is that you can forget about their interactions, at least at the... At some scale, like at some level, we can model that effectively, but there are also papers showing that these pairwise interactions, they cannot capture all the types of nutrients interaction. So sometimes you need to go to higher order times. I think, so the conclusion of some papers is that you cannot use GLV to describe all complicated type of nutrients interaction that they can be between the species. But I think that if you include a higher order term, not pairwise, but third order or higher terms in the Lord Cavalter equation, this could be possible. But I've never really worked on the complexity, stability, this type of problem. But I know there are many people who did works on that very recent work, but yeah, I couldn't. Okay, I think in view of the time, let's thank...


It's an absolute pleasure to bring to you some of Philadelphia's greatest basketball legends. Ken Hamilton, Wally Jones, and Bill Backett. Let's hear their stories. Thank you for tuning in to Will Megatv. 2016 went to Bill Logan University. Let me back up a little bit. I did have a chance to go to prep school right after that. Graduated from prep school in 1960 and continued my education at Bill Logan University. Then I went on to the Baltimore Bullets. I made the NBA our rookie team. Then I played six years with the World Champion 76ers, Milwaukee Bucks, Utah Stars, and Detroit also. I was fortunate to have a career as community relations director for the Miami Heat, which Billy Cunningham was a part owner, wrote me down there. I became a principal of the Heat Academy after school program and also a scout for 20 years for the Miami Heat. Now I'm now working as sports inside and out Wally Wonder segment broadcasting blog talk ready my byline radio with the Army Network in Pentagon. Go back again known as Double B. Graduated from grass in 1961. Graduated from Temple Prep in 1962. Went to NYU. Graduated from NYU in 1966. From that time on I was with the Sixers, with Denver, played overseas, played with Venezuela for a while, coached in Venezuela, and the three of us have been working the shoot for the stars in 30 years. We've been working with children. Q says 40 years, but we've been working with kids all over the country all these years. Thank you. Coach Ham, talk to me about your time playing at Germantown, who your coach was, who were some of your fellow players, and what's your most memorable moment as a player at Germantown High School? And what year are we talking about? We're talking about 58, 50, oh you want me to start? Okay. All right at Germantown High School when I went there we were probably the second best program in the city. Of course Overwood was number one and in my junior year and my senior year we went to the championship. We could beat everybody with Overwood High School. As a matter of fact in the championship it was almost like men playing against boys. Neither game was competitive. They killed us both times, but actually we were just happy to go as far as we did because I consider those particular Overwood teams to be probably the best high school teams to come out of Philadelphia. I would say maybe other than maybe the William Chamberlain teams. So unfortunately we came along at an era at a time when the Overwood Dynasty was just too much for us. I guess my most memorable thing would be playing at the Pulasmy. Being at the Pulasmy in such a great atmosphere but unfortunately the outcome both years was not so good. So what position did you play? Guard. Point guard, shooting guard or was there at Germantown? Who was your coach? Bill Nelson who I had the opportunity also to coach against. My very first game as a high school coach was against my high school coach, Bill Nelson. Fortunately we beat him. Basketball schemes back in the early 60s, late 50s, were they are they much different than what we see today in 2013 in terms of defense, schemes, offensive plays. I would say that we played on the floor. Today's players play in the air. As a matter of fact we say that they lack fundamentals whereas actually they just don't know what to do on the floor because they're jumping and up in the air and they use jumping as their escape or out for everything. You can get in trouble you jump so I would say that in our era we played on the floor and today they pretty much played in the air. Coming to you Mr. Jones, talk to me about your high school experience. Their overbrook what years were you there? Who were some of the players you played within and against? Who was your coach and what's one of your most memorable moments? Well you know I can think about the tradition that overbrook that Wilt was there. Marty Hughes, Vince Miller, Jimmy Sadler and as a young man seeing those ball players and actually competing against those guys at Haddington it was so much about tradition and the overbook tradition about winning and then I followed my brother little Bobby Jones, Wayne Hightower, Ralph Hayward, how we launched him and they won championships there. Matter of fact I didn't realize my brother Bob was an MVP in the city championship when they had the public play against the Catholic and one of the things that had us was tradition and we had a fellow named Walt Hazard that actually came from Maryland and had won the championship in Maryland in the ninth grade and he was a ball player that had all the skills and fundamentals and with our coach Paul Ward that's what we were about about fundamentals but one of the things about our team was if you didn't play football you were running cross-country so our team was one of the best condition teams that played because most of the guys ran cross-country and that goes as far as Wayne Hightower being 6'10", Ralph Hayward. During those days we were three sports the fact that we wanted to let her cross-country track and basketball were the three that I competed in but I had a guy that used to take Walt Hazard and I in the gym and physically beat us up and that was my hygiene teacher John Cheney. If you're talking about ball players that could play that's one of the great ball players that come out and fill up you. Come out of Ben Franklin High guys like Guy Rodgers, Hal Lear, Tim Parham, Carl Lacey, Joe Howe, you're talking about Reese Mary. These are guys that I looked up to as a guard and to see the top players in Philly coming from that crop of ball players you learned a lot from all of them but I really attribute a lot to what John Cheney would do to Hazard and he would play both of us and one of the things that he taught us is something that carried on with our game was that defense was very important in winning and I think that carried on through my career later on in prep school that Bill Lover and then in professional games. So let me just write you you were playing against John Cheney in school like what during lunch or lunchtime or break anytime here's my hygiene teacher come on we're gonna take you into take you and Hazard to the gym you guys are high school high shots that's the same thing with Tim Parham the industrial league they would come beat you they would physically try to intimidate you your high school high shots but these guys what made us tough and made us understand the game I think when QP and Bagga talk about Guy Rodgers he one of the roughest and smartest passing one of the best back court players ever come out of Philadelphia as a matter of fact we rate him and Al Lear is probably two of the top guard combos that ever played in college in his area I'm not going to exclude the young man Jameer Nelson and the other kid that played the St. Joe they were excellent back court but we had some great back court players we had some great great guards that came out of here he'd be white we had a combination of George Leftwood we had Pickles Kennedy we had Tom Gola you're talking about some of the greatest guards ever to come out of Grand Duffy Grand Duffy that's right you can play basketball so you think about tradition and what Philadelphia basketball is about it's really about not only the toughness but the basketball IQ and they would always talk about the New York ballplayers could drive to the basket or jump they'd jump out of the gym but we had playmakers we had shooters we had defenders and that's the way we learned the game because if you couldn't play bovins you couldn't play you couldn't play let me ask you about this I'm thinking about your era you graduated in 60 which means that you were at Overbrook High School with Guy M. Buford did you know Guy M. Buford no I didn't I mean I told you right but I didn't but he went to Westfield no he went to Overbrook I thought he was in Denver no they hired all them they have that's right okay now at Overbrook we were at a school that was very it's interesting QP had the same thing we're half Jewish-American have African-American Jametown with us so our competition was also in the academia because when we first came to school the counselors would try to put you in the shop for all those courses my mother said no he's taking trade trade they try to put in trade during those time counselors but our parents told us you taking yes academic courses because it's something that I'm going to pass on during those times they stare at you as brawn and no brains of course we have the Jewish in my school there are guys that were great athletes Richie Richmond a double score three sports played a bill low ball so football but it was academia it was us being student athletes matter of fact I was the campaign manager for the one of the first African-Americans to be president of the student body and his name is Walt Hazard and at our school the Jewish students ran the yearbook they ran they controlled everything because that's the way it was my father went to Overbrook and he's 96 and he said they won't allow him to play baseball they didn't allow African-Americans to compete and he was the same high school I went to and he wasn't allowed to compete in sports so you see we're on the brain and that's right when I first started my first year at Ben Franklin as a coach I got several arguments with the physical head teachers who were at Ben Franklin because I was putting in plays and they actually said to me that these kids can't learn how to play the plays and this was 1971 and these were the people who had been coaching there prior to me and that was their way they felt about people that they had and they they were physically possible mentally possible to learn plays that's when I broke in we had to argue about that we're going to come back to that with some some of the guys that you coach talk to us about of Grats you're experienced there at Grats Teddy block we had some fantastic time times there we've got some funny things too we got a big boy named Tony forward who wound up being the mayor's bodyguard for about eight years showed up at a game at Overbrook forgot his sneaks and he had to play barefoot Overbrook was talking about jump on his feet jump on his feet and now Tony was the biggest guy in the public league at the time he's about six nine about two eighties and he had no sneakers there's a jump on his feet jump on his feet so he was a protector of our shooter our shooter was Bobby Bandon yes Tony wouldn't let nobody touch Bobby he protected Bobby like Bobby was a child and Bobby could really shoot the ball but my greatest time in high school was when I was at Temple Prep and when we went to Canada and play Canada High with Archie Smith and Sonny Sunker we'd beat them 160 to 60 so when you're at Temple Prep that was still considered high school at that point okay Temple Prep was high school yeah but we played all freshman team was Temple Prep at Temple University yes okay yes when he went they were brought down that's right well when I went they were born in Columbia they had moved to a new building yeah but they were this old building playing with all the old guys how about Southall yeah no that's not all this was on he's on Southall yeah it's on down the street that's where he was I'm telling you that didn't Earl go to prep Earl go to the Earl Monroe go to prep school he didn't go to Temple Prep he didn't go to no big Bobby went big Bobby went it was a brown prep too yeah it was yeah great Carter went to right right right great Carter with the Roman and then to William Penn or been he didn't go to Roman he went to Ben Franklin he went to Roman and then Ben Franklin and then Brown prep and then he went to Mount Saint Mary Mount Saint by the way the other thing is that we've made playoff in 61 and lost to Earl Monroe talked to me about Earl Monroe well in in the beginning he was an average player he played a lot he played soccer yeah he won the basketball and that's how he got his moves played soccer Teddy Blunt he had Teddy was a he was a golden so these guys yeah he got played soccer right that's how Earl got his moves but Earl didn't really spring out until he went to Whistlesale then he was another person but he he was a different kind of player as when he was young because he was a forward yeah and he was a jumper and a slasher and he had a terrible knee was wobble yeah I mean I think he might have broke his knee he broke everything in his body right and I think for a year he won a full cast yeah from here all the way down but he kept playing basketball yes he did and this cast had a spiked heel and while this year that he played that's when he actually developed that famous move in the head because he would get the ball and spin around on that spiked heel and he was a completely different player after that he could jump no more I don't think it's he never left the ground again after that but Earl could get up and do all that stuff but he changed his entire game and boy his new game took him to the NBA all right so now that leads me to to to this question Philadelphia man we have a long tradition of basketball nicknames talk to me how you got chores how you got chores how Earl Monroe get his I think I got mine this guy chinks got chinks started calling me double B and it just stopped but he's the first guy to ever call me double B he tells everybody since we saw the lookalike that I'm his little brother but that's my man but he's the one that laid the nickname on me double B that besides me dumping and running after Jeff yeah I was dumping the ball and just keep running just just for the hell of it yeah Jeff Walker was one gave me my name while I wanted him but I tripled a lot to him not only in the journalistic aspect because he's a writer he's also a producer of the Isaiah Thomas story his mother's story and Muhammad Ali's story but he got me interested in writing a composed a book with Jim Washington called black champions challenge American sports I think one thing about our era was that we read a lot and we exchanged books that we played in pro ball we go to the creams house and chess jazz but also a lot of reading Richard Wright's solo on ice I could tell so many books that we learned about being African-American but that's when we all started to change our names we started to study more about our heritage and I think when I was traded from here to Milwaukee that's when I changed my name there's so many ball players had really found out about their heritage and done so many things I think that even comes to coach Hamilton so what did you change your name from what to what is Wali WALI which Mawali means teacher in Swahili it means ruler and Kenyan is different names and African names and we can't tell you the real name because he's named after a couple presidents so Malcolm X changed his name once to oh Mawali yeah when he went to Africa yeah it's pretty interesting because after learning a lot from coach Hamilton about black history I learned so much about different kings so as a matter of fact he named his son Esquia and I named my son Esquia he's actually a great African king and I have other African names for my children Kahar and Muki because you learned so much about your heritage you started to identify but I think one thing I told my papa I wasn't disgracing his name that he gave me but this is what I believe when I changed my name Abdul Wali Kimyan but when I went to the Mawaki Bucks it's just all I did is Wali Mahid Abdul Rahman Walhazid Keith Wilkes Jamal Wilkes Lou Alcindor Warren Jibali Warren Jibali these are guys that were his name was Armstrong but there so many African-Americans played ball changed their name I mean I mean Rashi so we we just learned so much about our heritage so we became more proud and not only that how we dressed beside beside the fro we wore eastern clothing kabubas robes that shit good that shit yeah we wore that shit yeah long long time wow we wore bells oh on the shoes yeah so what kind of music would you listen to that then pre-game pre-game what were you listening to before the game or did you have anything to listen to we'll talk to me it was like hot you dropped the bomb on me you dropped the bomb on me baby yeah that was your favorite so that was that your favorite song what's your favorite one of my favorites okay okay all right so last question talk to me about that the greatest yeah talk to me about a high school perspective did you see him play when we when you were younger any personal story you have about him I guess what you can say about him is that he changed the game because he destroyed the game and he destroyed the game so much they had to change the rules so other people could compete such as you mentioned with Elaine Will Chamberlain could stand outside in lane hold the ball reach over and dump the ball so they actually had him come in stand there hold out his arm and then when they realized that this was past where he could reach the basket that was a new lane and some gyms you still go and they still have the narrow lane and then they have the lane they had to do for Will Chamberlain and for the longest time they talked about raising the basket for 12 feet yeah yeah right he had a problem shooting foul shots because when he was in high school the rule was he could not come down and touch the floor before the ball went in the basket so Will Chamberlain was standing at the top of the key take a step to the foul line fly in the air and dunk his foul shot


The Rajasthan-Kisan Sabha in the month of September 2017 had led a very historic and unprecedented struggle of the peasantry. Three or four major demands of the struggle were loan waiver to the peasantry. Second was pension to the poor peasants and the agricultural workers. Third was a proper remunerative prices for the crops and the fourth demand was control of the wild animals etc. who are creating havoc among the fields. As a result of a 13-day chakka jam that is road blockade struggle all over Rajasthan, the state government had to bend and it had to agree to most of these demands of the Rajasthan peasants. They agreed for a loan waiver of 50,000 rupees per farmer. They agreed to 2000 rupees pension for the agricultural workers and the poor peasants and many other demands. Now what we are finding is tragically in the last six months not a single demand has been actually implemented of what they had actually agreed. And therefore the Rajasthan-Kisan Sabha had decided that today 22nd February a huge Mahapada of lakhs of peasants will be held in Jaipur to protest against this government inaction and the government betrayal of its own promises. Now what happened was three days ago the government instead of actually having talks with the farmers they arrested Comrade Amra Ram, former president of the Kerala India Kisan Sabha and the leader of the Rajasthan peasant struggle. They arrested more than 500 peasant leaders all over the state. Not only that, they stopped the farmers from coming to Jaipur. They stopped them in their villages, they stopped them in their tassels in the districts and now in Jaipur whoever have come in spite of that thousands have come, they stopped them at the national highway to stop them from coming to Jaipur. Even then hundreds have come over here, thousands are coming more. Now the first thing is the all India Kisan Sabha, we are condemning this entire repressive campaign of the BJP government of Rajasthan and we are saying over here that you are not allowing our farmers to come to the Vidhan Sabha to fight for their legitimate demands in the coming elections to the Vidhan Sabha in Rajasthan. The Kisan Sabha is making a vow to see you have stopped our peasants from coming to the Vidhan Sabha, we will see that not a single BJP leader is elected to the Vidhan Sabha in the coming Vidhan Sabha elections. This will be the approach and the slogan of the Kisan Sabha in the coming days and against this anti people and anti peasant government. One more thing that we are trying to say, while loan waiver by the state government is a must, we believe that the central government has a major role to play for conceding loan waiver not only in Rajasthan but to the farmers all over the country. Not a single step is being taken by the Narendra Modi government in favour of a loan waiver. On the one hand this same government gives practically a loan waiver in the form of non-performing assets worth 11.5 lakh crore rupees to a handful of corporates but at the same time they don't give loan waiver to the lakhs of farmers as we know in the last 20 years of neoliberal policies both of the Congress and the BJP government we have seen more than 4 lakh farmers have had to commit suicide due to indebtedness all over the country. And therefore these farmers are not before the Modi government, these farmers are not before them, they have only the corporates before them who help them monetarily and financially in the elections. So therefore we say that this kind of a thing should stop, all the policies should be changed. The final point that we are saying if the loan indebtedness of the farmers has to end once and for all. Another very important recommendation made by the National Commission of Farmers and its chairman Dr. M. S. Swaminathan needs to be implemented and that is that remunerative price MSP must be given and calculated as the cost of production plus 50% profit for every crop for every farmer. This has not at all been considered by the Modi government although they had promised it during the election campaign but they after the election they went to the Supreme Court gave an affidavit in February 2015 saying that we cannot implement this. Now in another Chonavi Jumla they have said in the budget that we are going to give one and a half times the cost of production and we have already declared that cost MSP for the Ravi crops. Nothing can be a bigger lie. None of the Ravi crops whatever MSP has been declared has become one and a half times the cost of production. This is only pulling wool over the eyes of the peasantry and the Kisan Sabha has decided to make a big struggle not only in Rajasthan in the coming month of March we are having a huge struggle starting in Maharashtra by the Kisan Sabha on the similar thing betrayal by the Maharashtra state government of the BJP of the assurance is given to us last year. All over the country also such struggles will be launched and as a result of the Kisan Sansat that we had in Delhi 184 peasant organizations came together huge lakhs of farmers came together Kisan Sansat for these two main demands loan waiver and remunerative prices. This struggle will spread all over the country in the coming few days. This is what we have now set our eyes on and that will be the direction of the future struggle by the all India Kisan Sabha.


This study examined the effectiveness of indoor common spaces and providing social distancing after the COVID-19 pandemic. It found that the single-loaded corridor, gallery, plan was most effective in achieving social distancing compared to other plans. Additionally, the study provides a foundation for future design and offers visions for further study. This article was authored by Salahadaniya Seenbaper and Sihamusher Karim.