All right. We're cooking. We are rolling and take three. What's up, guys? Drew here that anxiety guy dot com as always with Billy Cross from anxiety united dot com. Good to be back again again for the third time this morning. It's a yes, we have all kinds of newfangled technology this morning. So I hope everybody notices it and loves it. Yeah, if you don't stuff, we're sticking with it anyway. So it's another Saturday morning and we're back to do the next and our extended anxiety one on one series. What are we talking about today, sir? We are talking while I recommended doing something about like restaurants and social situations like going out for a drink in a bar, you know, maybe parties stuff like that. I think it's a good idea. I think you're going to have to run with this one because I just don't do it. But interestingly, like I'm going out for my birthday. So it's less than two weeks away. So give me some tips, man. Give me some tips. Some tips. All right. So I guess we're going to entitle this one like how to deal with restaurant slash social situation. We haven't figured it out yet. We'll figure it out, man. So it's all about like going out to eat and probably hit on a couple of different things because there are people who have multiple issues with regard to going to a restaurant or a pub, a bar, whatever. We can almost put in concerts and any kind of public situation. Yeah, yeah, that's it. So that's that's something you do on a regular. You're saying it's been a while. I mean, I did it. I went out. Wow, Jesus Christ. I went out for breakfast a few times recently. But that was kind of, you know, but it was way emptier. The place was than it would normally be like a peak dinner times and stuff. So sure, sure. But I haven't been out for my birthday for many years. So I just want to do it, man. I should celebrate it. Jesus, it's about time. You should be out for your birthday. You know that. I'm with you, I don't know. Instead of going to McDonald's drive through the drive through. We talked about that last week, though. Yeah, yeah. Being stuck in the drive through.  But I didn't have a specific problem with, you know, like with restaurants. It was just in general for me. But I think the most common things that I hear with people in a restaurant is going out to eat is the feeling trapped, like that's it.  I think I mentioned it maybe on a video before where it was like it's a battle getting in the place. But then when you've given your order, like, you know that you've got to sit now. And that's when it always used to be for me, like I'd make that decision. I'd sit and think about what I'm having. And then it's like, I know as soon as I order, I've got to stay. That's it. Because a lot of the places over here, like the pubs and restaurants, you would go up to the checkout and you'd pay. Yeah, like there's no waitress service or the reason places. But the places I used to go, like the dark and dingy bars, you know. So you'd go up and pay, you'd order your food and then you've got to sit. Otherwise you're wasting 20 quid. Right, right.  Exactly. Exactly. It's all we eat, maybe. Bangers and mash. It's all I know. And I'm out now. I'm done. So yeah, but once you'd made that decision, I'm ordering like we're sitting, then that becomes the tricky bit. But then I used to get a thing like when I'd eat as well, because there's obviously changes in your body when you're eating. Like I'd always get hot and sweaty and feel a bit dizzy, maybe. I don't know whether it was me overthinking or whether it was actual physical changes that are happening in your body when you're eating. It's probably both.   There's no doubt about that. But and then probably they just get magnified by the fact that you were saying, yeah, that's it because you concentrate on it. Yeah, exactly. So I think so there's that thing where, okay, now you're trapped. People always say, well, I feel trapped now because I have to sit, especially if you're with a larger group of people, you know, it's just you and your significant other or you and a friend. That's one thing. But if it's you and, you know, there's 16 people because you're at a birthday party or something like that, it gets even tougher. People feel even more trapped. So there's a thing that says, well, I can't leave. If I have to leave, I can't leave now sort of trapped. The second thing that I've heard was the is the what if everybody's looking at me, you know, so that's that fear of embarrassment or being judged. I don't know if that's if that's kind of a thing for you. But and then the third thing is that whole eating people who, you know, what if I choke, what if I they're actually get anxious about eating in front of people, which isn't, I don't know if it necessarily. It's weird because there's so many different ways that you can go at this. Like that for me, like a fear of choking has never been an issue. But yeah, you're right. You're right. There's some people out there that that is the big thing.  And I think that could be that's almost like a phobia by itself.   And then the third one is people who have the emidophobia. They're afraid of being ill of throwing out the vomiting. And so the eating just plays right into that. That's a tough one. Like, you know, I have never dealt with that myself. Yeah, how do you expose yourself to that? You don't. And so we'll have to talk about it. Yeah, yeah. Some of these things you cannot really expose yourself to. So, you know, what do you do with them? But so you have you ever the choking thing is not a thing for you. The getting sick thing is not a thing. No, no, with me, I was talking to somebody yesterday talking about this very subject, and it's like it doesn't matter where it is for me. It could be anything like I went to the doctors yesterday and experienced major anxiety. I was telling you yesterday, weren't I? Yes, yeah, you know, so I went through that exact same process that I would if I was going to eat a restaurant or if I was going to a supermarket, it's exactly the same process. But for me, it's not it's not a case of where it is. It's a case of what it is. That's what I think. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, no, no, I get it. So it doesn't matter that you're in a restaurant or the office. Yeah, it makes a difference. The same thing I would bet for the majority of people who are watching and listening. That's probably that, you know, eating out is just another. It's just another thing, another challenge for them. It's probably based primarily on the what if I panic and I am trapped and I can't escape and it's not safe here. So that stuff you can you can certainly address in just about everything we've ever talked about. Yeah, yeah, well, that's it was perfect yesterday. Like that was it was exactly the same process of what you would do with any of these things. Like I was freaking out when I was in the car park outside, went in, walking around like I was pacing around the waiting room, you know, the nurse called me in, I went in. It was like just a health check thing. And when I came out, I'd accomplished everything and I felt great and I was just pacing around the waiting room, like just chilling out. I wanted to stay in there until it was zero on the anxiety level. And I did and it was that feeling again, the same as when I walked around the castle, the same as when I did anything when you see it through the same principles of Lyman. Right, right. So it didn't matter, you know, in the end. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the takeaway from that, right. And I killed a pheasant on the way to the on the way to the doctor's surgery, which freak me out. So I was feeling really dodgy. I had to go and pick my little up from school. Yeah. And I was feeling like tired and just questioning. I don't want to go to the doctors like I was arguing with myself saying like, I don't even need to go to the doctor. It was just a health check because I've signed up to a new surgery like. And I was just thinking, I don't need to go. I'm not going to go. Then I hit a pheasant and all of a sudden I swear.  Pay attention to the road. I felt way better, way more alert, but I was still freaking out. So yeah, I killed a bird. Well, my condolences to the pheasant and his family. Funerals next Tuesday. I'll make a charitable donation in the name of that person. Whoever she or a couple of turkey drumsticks. So did that put you in a more anxious state?  So it woke me up.  And it was like the upsetting thing, too. Like, yeah, it was weird. It was weird because my daughter was in the car with me. And she was like, did we just hit that? And I was like, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Can't sugarcoat it. Yeah. Yeah. It's dead. The circle of life and all that. Doesn't usually involve a diesel engine, but that's OK. Well, OK, so that's fine. So I think in the end, so your story about getting to the doctors yesterday and, you know, having that initial panic and losing it in the waiting room. But then once that was over, you just you were good. Took over. It's exactly the same as I would feel if I was going to a restaurant or I will feel on my birthday. I'm going to feel exactly the same. I'll freak out on the way there. I'll get in there. I'll do that ordering thing. I'll probably have the peak of the anxiety then. And then it'll start to subside. If I sit with it, if I run out of there, then it's game over, isn't it? You did a video a while ago. It's probably over a year or two ago now where you did that. You went out. I want to say you went out to breakfast. Yeah. Yeah. Do you remember that one? Yeah. I did it a few times. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that one. And I remember one of those two. And it was that is exactly what happened.   It was nothing. It was fine. That's it. That's it. Always subsides. You just got to sit with it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's I think in terms of like, if you're just having a problem with there's nothing specific about the act of being in a restaurant or a bar or a pub, it's just the fact of being out out of your safe area or whatever the heck it is. And you think you have to escape. That's again, the lesson is you just have to sit with it. Yeah. Don't add to it. It will subside. It might not go to zero. I mean, for you, it went to zero because you're you're quite experienced now. Just a bit. Well, that's okay. But that's normal because you've been at this for quite a long time. Yeah. You're new to that whole thing. Like it might not go to zero.  Yeah, you read that pub. But but the bottom line is if you just let it be there and don't react to it, it might not be the most enjoyable evening of your life of your life. But the next time you do it, you know, it'll be a little bit easier and a little bit easier. And I would say so if if a restaurant or a bar or a public place like that, it's just part of the bigger picture as you're working on everything better at the supermarket, better at going to work, better at all of those things. A restaurant and a bar will naturally become easier to do. Yeah, yeah. Although if you're primarily working on driving and work in school and like those life things and and the restaurant is something you haven't done in two years, you'll likely fear it because I haven't done this. What if I can't I could drive now, but what if I can't sit in the restaurant? You'll have those are natural thoughts to have, but it'll be easier than it would be if you went from completely house bound to, you know, yeah, yeah, it's not for three hours. So yeah, I think it's just like anything else. As far as the other stuff, this is the tough stuff, like fear of choking or fear of vomiting or just the fear of just being in social situations. Have you been social anxiety isn't really necessarily? It is now. Oh really? Yeah, yeah. Really? Okay. I don't know why. Maybe it's just because it's through not doing anything. That's what it is. It's just the unknown now. It's becoming the unknown. Right, right. That could be, that could be. But I think people- Doing stuff like this is helping though. Like taking live calls on the stream and- Sure. I'm talking to way more people now off stream. Yeah. Like just from the group in there. Yeah. Chatting to people properly and so that's helping. So I do- It's just the face-to-face thing. I don't do it enough. Yeah. But do you find that as you communicate with more and more people that social anxiety thing is starting to feel a little bit less? Yeah, I guess. It's weird. I'm just weird, man. I'm just weird. Like if I am face-to-face with somebody then I can hold a conversation and all that, but I do tend to go inside my own head and start thinking like oh, I feel a bit giddy or so I'm just questioning myself. But I'm fine. I'm fine socially. Like I can hold a conversation. I'm a master of small talk. You know? You are. You're very witty. I mean, obviously as we could do, you know. We could ban that. I'm a little funny so that's cool. Yeah. I'll take that. Yeah, you should take it. It's good. But I think that social anxiety thing and I think that like people who are afraid to eat in front of other people. There may be specific fear of what if I choke and there are specific things they're afraid that might happen that are food related. What if I get sick, what if I choke? That I get. But just the general feeling of like, well, I'm anxious being around other people or in a crowd. I don't want people looking at me.   So I've never. Say nothing. I've never had a problem, you know, with that thing, eating in public. I didn't really have social anxiety, but everyone, even for me, that's never been part of the anxiety complex.  And the thought occurs to me, like this is the strangest thing that we do. Like we, you know, we put stuff like in us. Like it's just. Feet, feet. Right. It's just the strangest. Like if there was an alien came down and it was like watching us. What are these, what are these things doing? It's crazy. Like there was a thing. And now it's not there. What happened? Yeah. That thing, yeah. Sometimes they do think that. And I can understand then maybe why people would view eating in public as especially vulnerable. Yeah, yeah.  I can see where if you're socially anxious or you have social anxiety. So it'd be more of what other people are thinking when they're looking at that gravy on your chin or. Right. That's what it is. Yeah. It's an embarrassment thing. If it's that fear of being embarrassed or judged, you know, if you're not terribly confident or you're feeling that people are judging you, I would think that eating in public is probably a super vulnerable place to be. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because we can look silly when we eat, but everybody looks that way. I don't know. Nobody looks cool necessarily when they're eating. Which it's so interesting too, because well, now you're kind of back in that world now a little bit. But if, you know, especially on a date, I love hearing people talk about like their date restaurant strategies. Yeah, yeah. That's a bad idea. Well, right. A lot of people, I'm gonna say women, I hate to say this, this is just my own personal experience. Women tend to say that. Like, I don't want to eat the first time I meet a guy. Yeah, yeah. Or for a drink, but I don't really want to eat anything. Just in case, because I guess it's that thing where you can't look cool eating. Nobody ever does. So that's all right. Because we all look the same. So what's the difference? Yeah, yeah, what's the difference? So I don't know in terms of it, how do you get over the fear of being in a restaurant? If it's just part of the overall anxiety complex, you just have to work on everything. Say all the time, you work on all of your issues and the rest will kind of come along. But I think it's just something you have to just start doing. I think I was thinking about this morning, like, cause we said we was going to talk through the steps of how you would do it. Yes. So I was thinking like it's the same rules for like the supermarket. You'd perhaps just get in your car the first time, be prepared, think about it, then go and maybe sit in the car park there. Then the next time go to the doors. Next time go in, maybe go to the bathroom. Next time go in to have a drink, maybe. If you can do that, you're not going to just build up to it if you need to take those steps or just go straight in. I think, yeah, I think that's an individual call, depending on how terrifying it is. Yeah, that's it, that's it. But yeah, you could probably do that. Just go and sit in the parking lot, the car park. Or maybe go first to a takeout, where you could go in and stand there and just stand in the anxiety, order your food, wait for it to be prepared, then you're leaving. So that's a good intermediate step also. Takeout, takeaway, whatever you call it, where you live. Takeaway, takeaway. Takeaway, is that a thing there? That's takeaway, we call it takeout. But that's a good intermediate step. And it forces you to kind of stand there and wait for the food to be prepared. You have to stand there to wait to order, you have to stand to wait. You can't just run out unless you want to pay and then leave without your food, but. I've got a question. Yeah, go ahead. Like who goes to the takeaway anymore? It's all I'm just eating it. Jesus, they've even ruined that. Wait, all right, let me think about that. Who goes to takeaway? Here, I think a lot of people do. Oh, really?  Takeaway is like a fast food, if you're not driving through and like shipping a hamburger in your face while you drive, but a fast food. And then there are, like for us, we have delis, delicatessen is in New York, at least in the New York area, big deal. And our supermarkets, like all of a sudden our supermarkets have become like full blown catering, like. Yeah, yes. I don't know if you guys have that there, but you walk into a supermarket here now on Long Island in New York area. In a lot of the rest of the country in the US, they have that already, which is now getting it. Like we're behind in supermarket tech here, I don't get it. But it's amazing the number of people I see that walk into a supermarket now and actually go right for that section. And they're buying dinner already prepared like they're in a restaurant and they're just putting it in a bag and taking it home. So, you know, I think that's a decent intermediate step. It forces you to sit and wait a little bit.  Oh, sure. Sure. We have that too. Yeah, but now, you know, at least if you live in a more, you know, urban or even a suburban area, like, do you have Uber Eats? I don't know if we do one. I don't know. We have Just Eat, that's what I use. Oh, whatever. Right. So at least here, you know, in Uberville in the US, like now we have Uber Eats and an app called Door Gas.  Pizza. Pizza is takeout. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Dominoes. Dominoes. With that, we can agree on. Well, we can agree on pizza. I can't, I'm contractually obligated to not agree on dominoes by my ethnic heritage. I can't do it. There are dominoes and like Papa John's here in New York area. I don't know why anyone would go to them. We have like the best pizza in the world here. And people, yeah. So anyway, but that's neither here nor there, but pizza is take away. So I would think, okay, let's, you know, maybe take away where we're just talking about food. Sorry, sorry about that. I forgot how many people are watching us. So take away, take out probably a good intermediate step.   There are definitely intermediate steps you can take, but I'm gonna repeat what we should repeat every time. Like expect to feel badly. If that's a problem for you, then success in that trip to the restaurant or the pub or the bar is not, oh, I went and I felt great. That's not success.  I was in a panic when I stayed. Right, but I stayed and nothing bad happened. You need to create a memory and a story in your head that ends with and I was okay. It has to always end with I was okay as opposed to making up a story. Cause you didn't do it saying, well, I almost, you know, I had to run out of there because they almost passed out. No, no, you need to create stories and memories that end with and it was okay. I think that's interesting you say that cause when I've done something like that, like I would always remember the part where I didn't feel okay. Even if I successfully do it and come out feeling great, like the next time I was gonna go and do it, I'd always think back and think, shoot, like do I really wanna go through that? So it is about challenging that and trying to remember the positive, like you did it. Well, that's a good point. That's a super, I mean, I think that's pretty normal.  I can't wait to go and have a panic attack, you know, in a restaurant again, nobody does. But what you should really be thinking is I can't wait to go and feel the way that I did when I just nailed it. More positive thinking, yeah. Right, I can't wait to feel the way I did after the panic started. I felt like, you know, invincible and happy. But even if you do that, I mean, that's a powerful thing. It's why we develop panic disorder and agoraphobia. The memory of the bad is like really strong. So you just have to, but that's the crux of this whole process that you and I talk about continually. Like it sucks, but you got to do it anyway. But as far as the other stuff, I guess we're just gonna sort of guess and we'll have to wait to see what kind of comments. Like you can't expose yourself to throwing up and vomit. You can't like this. So if you have eminophobia, there's really, there's no way to expose yourself to that. If you have social anxieties, there are ways to expose yourself to that, but social anxiety and that fear of eating and looking silly in front of people, you can put yourself in those situations. But that's where you get into the realm of the difference between more behaviorally based stuff, which is stuff you and I talk about all the time.  Uh-oh, there's someone in your window. No, I'm not kidding. Shit. You scared me then.  Bastard. So, more cognitively based things. So if you have social anxiety or if you're afraid of vomiting or all those things, I freaked out, didn't I? Why did you do that? Poor Billy went off the rails. Jesus, I'm gonna beat a blocker.  Oh my God, did you see that? I'm gonna guess that's your daughter. I knew it. Dude, that is so funny. Did you see her before? No, I did not see her before. I was just making a joke. Hey, Lola. I cannot believe that you ended up looking in the window. That is one of the funniest things ever.  I'm gonna watch it back to see if she was there. She was not there. I completely popped it in my head because I started to notice the window and then 45 seconds later, there she was. That was like, it reminded me of Scream, the film Scream.  Because I could sort of see an outline in the window. Where is it? Over there? Jesus. That is hilarious. We might put this bit back in. I'll do a bit of editing. We'll make it look good. That's fine.  That's really funny.  I can't remember. Oh, we were talking. Okay, so let me see if I can get back on track. She's just grabbing something, then she's going again. Oh, that's fine. So we can just chill out until she goes. I don't care. Yeah, I'm good with that. Yeah, let my t-shirt soak up the sweat. Wow. Rough. That was rough. Yeah, I made a joke and it kind of freaked you out. It looked like it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.  But if you have eminophobia or you're afraid of choking or you have social anxieties, these are things where you really have to work on identifying those thought patterns and challenging them, changing them. It's part of CBT. So even if you just have panic disorder and agoraphobia, you would do that. But you can't get off the window, can you? I'm just looking. I'm sorry. Carry on. Carry on. But even if you're dealing with just your run of the mill panic disorder and agoraphobia shit, you're going to deal with some of those things, thought changing. You've been through some sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Going through those exercises. But if you're dealing with social anxiety or that sort of thing, things you can't really readily expose yourself to, you really got to take some time and start working on those things, whether you're using a workbook or you're actually with a therapist or whatever those things are, you have to take an active role. Like it's really difficult to change because thoughts or behaviors too. So if you have social anxiety and so being in a crowded restaurant seems like your worst nightmare, just night white knuckling your way through the crowded restaurant isn't enough because in that situation, you're not going to find like, well, I didn't die. You're not really afraid of dying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your panic disorder might be. You're afraid of people looking at you and what are they thinking? And are they judging me? Am I fitting in? Or do they like me? Or do they hate me? Yeah, yeah. Those are, that's all happening up here. So you got to really work on being in that situation and being able to identify and modify those thoughts. Yeah, yeah. And learning what you're in control of because you're not in control of it. Like people don't look at you. Right, right. Especially if you're handsome like us too, you know. You know, what are you going to do? It becomes an issue, yeah. It too becomes an issue. I'm so tired of it. It's so hard to walk down the street.  It's so funny. I have people just coming up to my windows looking through, you know what I mean? Obviously, how do you keep up with Apparazzi is what that's all about.  It's you and Lady Gaga, same problem. Yeah.  I do have a dress made of meat, so you're right. So there you go. A dress made of meat. In the next episode we're going to wear his meat dress. Oh my God. So anyway, that is probably, I think, the best. I don't know. I think we have a whole lot of advice other than eating out or going to a bar or restaurant. The same as almost everything else. But if you're dealing with some of those other more cognitively-based things, you really got to take an active role in working on that. Like, yes, I'm afraid of being judged or I'm afraid of looking silly and I'm afraid of vomiting or I'm afraid of choking in front of people. You can't expose yourself to things, so you got to just take an active role in working on the cognitive part of that. You just have to. I don't think people forget, you know. Yeah, yeah. I suppose because we talk a lot about just doing it, but that is some, yeah, that's a different aspect in it. Because people do ask about social anxiety a lot, but I don't really have major experience because my social anxiety is purely linked to a fear of doing something rather than I don't really care what other people think. Like I never really have. So I guess, you know. So it doesn't matter. I know. Which I'm guessing for somebody with social anxiety, it must seem so foreign. Yeah, yeah. Like I could sit in a restaurant. I might spill soup in my lap, but I couldn't be less interested. Look at me, don't look at who cares. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But so I think we were talking about just doing it. If you're dealing with those more cognitive related things, just doing it means you got to start taking an active role in that work. You could do that work too. You could change your thought patterns. So it's a thing. It's an actual real thing. And I'll just add to that. It has nothing to do with going and just laying on a therapist sofa and talking about mom and dad. Like that isn't it. There's specific types of therapies that are designed to identify, help you identify. Well, now, oops, I'm thinking that thing again. You know, follow it through. And you work on those things when you're not in a restaurant in sort of high anxiety mode. You work on it, you know, when you're feeling good. You have worksheets. You follow your thoughts through to the logical conclusions.  And then you can challenge that. Well, the worst case is somebody doesn't like me. OK, what does that mean? And you can work through all those things in a logical way as opposed to when you're being fueled by fear and anxiety. So when you get into that actual situation of being in the restaurant or the bar, you can fall back on those techniques that you taught yourself while you, in the comfort of your own home, feeling OK. Yeah, yeah. All right, I'm thinking this. So that means I have to do this, this, this, and this. And it's super uncomfortable in the beginning. But as you get better, like anything else, you start to put those tools in practice, you better. So people do overcome things like social anxiety. They do. It's not a life sentence. And there you go. So I don't know. What else do we got? I think we could apply this to restaurants, concerts, bar, almost any public situation. It is, yeah, yeah. And like I keep saying, the doctors think really reinforce that for me yesterday. Yeah. Because it was just like, I know that I'm feeling like this. And I know that I'll feel that exact same thing whatever it is that I'm doing. So for me, that's my condition. My condition is, well, my issue, my disorder is being in these situations. It doesn't matter what it is. It's when I'm out of the car or out of the house. That's when it's an issue. So it doesn't matter what it is. Yeah, yeah. Like even walking around the castle, that was an issue. Like it completely different. It's not even in a building. No. But it's the same exact issues. Yeah, yeah. And my guess would be that if you went and did that castle walk 16 times in the next two weeks, so it became boring to you and you're no longer anxious. It would actually improve your restaurant situation. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like some measure. Yeah, yeah, it would. So, you know, there's that. We want to take a look at some of the comments that people had posted about this in the forum. Let's do it. I'm just starting to stop sweating a bit now. I see that. I'll look. Let's see. How do I? Laura Karnarski, my friend Laura, how do I get through being in a heavily crowded place without seeing an exit in sight? Like the mall or yesterday? Oh, Laura's in my neck of the woods. Yesterday she was in New York City at Rockefeller Center. And there were so many people. And you're just sandwiched between them searching for how to get out, made my anxiety so much worse. I think the answer to that question is kind of the same as anything else. Like, why do you think? So, Laura, why do you think you need an exit? Yeah, yeah. Why do you have to? What do you need to get out from? You need to get out from how you feel and what you think. So the object of the game here is to be in that situation where you do not exit. Or if there's no exit, so be it. There's always an exit. There's no place we can't get out unless you committed a crime and you're in jail and you can't get out. But otherwise, without seeing an exit in sight, like you must put yourself in those situations where you cannot see an exit. Because if you think you still need an exit, why? Why do you need an exit? Yeah, yeah, still fearing that. Right. The same thing happened with me. And I'm going to go back to it because I'm just a broken record. No, it's totally fine. Like when I was halfway round the top of the castle, there was only one way back down. And I reached the halfway point and I had that flash in fear. It was like, shit, whichever way I go, I've got the same distance. Yeah. And I was thinking to myself, I need to go.  But then I challenged it. And it was at that moment that it all just disappeared. Like it was mad. Because we've talked about that so many times. Like if you have that flashing fear and if you act on it, then it just gets worse until you're out of the situation. Right. I made a different decision. It was just, I ain't running. Like I'm just going to slow down, in fact. Yeah. Nothing happened. You did the opposite of what your initial instinct told you to do. And so much of this. First time in a long time. First time in a long time that I've challenged that thought. Usually I would act and speed up and get out. Yeah. No. And you know, do the opposite is like something we've talked about in the past. It's almost the best advice you can give yourself at any given time. What should I do? The opposite of what I initially think I want to do. So Laura, if you think you need to find an exit, do the opposite. Stop looking for the exit. And like panic if you must, because the object of the game is have a panic attack at rock. And I understand, believe me, I've been in Rockefeller Center, especially now at Christmas time, it is just jam packed with people all want to see the Christmas displays.  It gets crazy. So I understand that. But the object of the game is if you're going to put yourself in that situation, just then do it. Like don't do it and think, well, I'll do this, but only if I know I can get out. Because why do you need to get out? If you panic, then panic. Who cares? You need to learn that even panic. It's not the end of the world. It won't hurt.  And if you just let it happen, it'll subside after seven, eight, nine minutes. And you're fine. Go and look at the tree some more. So be prepared. Be prepared to panic. Right. Be prepared. Like you want to feel that way. I mean, sometimes, let me back up a little bit. Sometimes it's not about, sometimes you just want to go out to talk about restaurants. So we'll bring it back to that. But Laura, how do I get a crowded place like a restaurant where you think there's no exit? Once you've ordered the food, there's no exit? I get it. It's not always exposure. So sometimes, and maybe in Laura's case, like that that was just what the family was doing. So she wasn't treating it necessarily as exposure. And I get that. It's not always exposure. Sometimes it's just after your daughter's dance recital and you're going for ice cream, and that's it. So I get it. Sometimes it's difficult to always think of everything as like having a plan and exposure and doing this on purpose. Sometimes you don't want to do that. Yeah. Anyway, how do I think we should have a how do I fly? How do I ferry? How do I go on the two hour Eurostar tunnel? Yeah, I need help with that one as well. How do I fly? You know what? We could do that. That's another good one. How to travel. I could definitely speak to that. I could definitely speak to that. Because from like a little bit afraid to leave the house, sometimes a lot afraid to like go anywhere now or come see you at a passport. And Laura says, yes, or how do I go on vacation? We'll do that. Maybe we'll do that next week. That'll be the next one. How do we travel? Let's see. That was about all we got. Is that it? We had no love in the comments today. It's too early for these people. We did. We had love, but it was early. It was early in the US when you posted for sure. That's fine. So next week, we'll do travel. I think that's a good idea. Yeah, yeah, definitely. I like the experience with that. Anything else you want to add on this? Not that I'm enjoying this. Me too. It's working out great. It was. Yeah, yeah. You were until the whole window episode. Yeah, yeah. That's kind of threw me off of it. It was good exposure. It was. Honestly, I would have had no idea. If you didn't say that it kind of freaked you out, I would have never known. Yeah, yeah. Never known so much. Nobody could know and would have ever known that you got a little flustered over that. Yeah, yeah. But that's OK. We'll have edited that. My master of disguise. You are. You are.  So I guess next week, we'll do travel. This is pretty good. We're 37 minutes in and we're going to take some edit, take some footage out, so it'll be less than that. But we're like, if you're watching this now with us, like we're having a watch party. So if you're watching it after, then I apologize. But yeah, hello. Hi.  OK, everybody thought it was live. Oh, that is so funny. Everybody thought it was live. I was getting messages after saying, oh, I thought it was live. It was like, no. Yeah, I'm sitting here watching you. Why aren't you answering my question? You're not acknowledging. What are you vaping? What are you vaping? Let's just this is Billy's not going to tell you what he's vaping and I'm not going to tell you about dying my beard. So that's the internal. I'm going to put like a frequently asked questions thing on my website. Well, number one, what am I? Q A none of your business stuff. Keep fighting. All right, I think we're good. I think that's it. Yeah, man.  We kind of we kind of we kind of got it. Yeah, I'm pretty. Wait, wait, wait, before you go, before we go. Yes, subscribe on YouTube. You're going to upload this to YouTube. You know, I am. I'm going to do both of them. I'm going to upload next week, last week's now. So OK, so we'll be a week behind. Yeah, that's cool. So whichever place you're watching this, whichever channel minor Billy's, hit the subscribe button. Damn it. I'm not going to put it on mine. Oh, you're not going to put it on yours. You are. You are quite. You are quite the good friend. Please help me out. Get to that magic house. We're getting you there. So like you hit the thumb. What are you supposed to do? Hit the thumbs up button. You got to like it and subscribe. Yeah, like, comment, leave a comment. Hit the subscribe button, but hit the little bell icon and then you'll be notified every time Drew uploads on his channel. See, there you go. See, I'm going to hire you. You can be my YouTube marketing consultant. But like really, no, truly, like wherever you happen to be seeing this, whether it's YouTube or Facebook or whatever, my website or wherever, just and you have a question, leave it. Like we'll always see it jump in. We'll try to answer it or suggestions for different topics. Yeah, yeah. If you have a question, you have a topic suggestions, throw it in there. But we're both going to see it no matter where it is and we'll jump in. No matter how late it is next year, we'll still answer the questions. Exactly. Awesome. All right. I'm going to end it here. See you guys later. Ta-da. Get the stop recording button.


Okay, so let's go ahead and do this second mechanism that was on the quiz so this one said draw the mechanism from propanolic acid to propanol bromide using phosphorus tribromide So Remember just like every time we do a mechanism. What are we going to do? We're going to erase everything that's not needed in the first step and we're going to expand the bonds Okay, if we do that it really helps us to remember What things are breaking and what things are forming and I'd also like to put the lone pairs in okay? So let's go ahead and do that. Don't forget where we're going to though because if we forget oftentimes we won't get there, okay? phosphorus is oxyphilic, so Even though it's got those lone pairs on there, and we don't often like to Attack things with lone pairs phosphorus can Be attacked at that position. So that's what's going to happen. It's oxyphilic. So the oxygen will attack it So it'll be actually the heart hydroxyl group portion of the carboxylic acid so Going to take those electrons And attack that phosphorus out Okay, that's not the only thing that happens right? We're also going to knock off one of these bromines So what we're doing essentially is taking a bad leaving group the OH group here and turning it into a good leaving group Which is that oh connected to the phosphorus and all those okay, so So here Remember this carbon is electrophilic the carbonyl carbons always electrophilic and hopefully you can see right this is Going to be that good leaving group that we talked about in class. Okay, so this thing is going to Attack the bromide ion is going to attack the carbonyl carbon Which is going to induce those electrons to go there just like So we're going to get that tetrahedral intermediate that we see Final step is going to be these electrons coming back down Making the carbonyl again kicking out those electrons to allowing them to rest on that Okay, so when that happens, let's just draw that final product The organic product that we're interested in if you remember how to name those things and then This is an organic product, which we as organic chemists of course aren't interested. Questions on that mechanism? Makes sense You sure?  Okay


the President of the United States. Present to you the President of the United States. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you all. Ladies and gentlemen, the first order of business tonight is for me to express my deep gratitude to each of you for coming here to help make possible a matter of national importance, the election of Dave Carnes to the United States Senate. You see, when it comes to the next senator from the great state of Nebraska, well, let me put it like this. The best man for the job is already there. But greetings to the members of the Nebraska Congressional delegation with us tonight. Congressman Doug B. Ryder of the First District, Congressman Hal Dobb of the Second District, and Congresswoman Virginia Smith of the Third District. And to Governor Kay Orr, who will view this wonderful event on television back in Nebraska, Kay, I just have the feeling that come election day, the people of Nebraska are going to confirm your wisdom in appointing Dave Carnes to the Senate. And special greetings, of course, to Dave's wonderful wife, Liz, and to their daughters. I see the four of them right here. Cory, Kaylin, Kara, and Laurel. I don't know whether a romance between a man in his 70s and a little girl of four has much of a future. But when I said hello to Laurel just a few moments ago, well, I took one look into those big brown eyes and just plain lost my heart. But we came here this evening to talk business, and that's just what we'll do. Back in 1980, America faced a crisis. We had all the usual trappings of government, but no real leadership. It was sort of like one of my favorite stories. This had to do with a fellow that applied to the zoo for a job.  And when he came in in the morning, they said, but to tell you, we lost our ape. And you'll have to take his place in this ape suit just until the next one arrives that we've sent for. And then you'll be at your regular job here in the zoo. Well, he got into the suit, and they said, you just get in the cage and just kind of move around as a rope in there. You can swing on and stuff and entertain the children. So he did. Well, he kind of got carried away with it after a while, with the children all looking at him and so forth. And finally, he was swinging on that rope, and he swung too far up over the top of the cage and dropped into the lion's cage. And the lion came roaring at him and jumped on him. And he started screaming, get me out of here, save me, help me, get me, get me out of here.  But as I said, America faced a crisis. The month when George Bush and I took our oath of office, inflation stood in double digits. The prime interest rate hit the highest point since the Civil War, and economic growth was disappearing. It didn't matter where you came from, whether you were a man or a woman or black or white.  If you had a dream of owning your own home, inflation and interest rates were closing those doors of opportunity. And for working men and women who needed loans to start their own business, and for farmers who needed loans to plant their crops, 21.5% prime interest rates were closing the doors on their dreams too.  The Navy had fallen from nearly 1,000 battle-ready ships to under 500. We Americans watched as the Soviets amassed vast military might, then intimidated our allies and fueled regional conflict. I'm convinced that in 1980, America faced one of those historic choices that comes to a nation only a few times in a century. We could continue our decline, perhaps comforting ourselves by calling it inevitable. Or we could realize that there is no such thing as inevitable and choose instead to make a new beginning. Well, we made that new beginning. And with the help of a Republican Senate, we cut the growth of spending, we eliminated needless regulations, we reduced personal income tax rates, and we passed an historic reform called tax indexing. Government can no longer use inflation to profit at the people's expense. Perhaps many of you didn't realize paying your income tax in those inflationary days that your purchasing power was going down. Your money was worth less. But because the numbers of dollars were increasing if you were getting adjusted somehow that way, your tax was based on the number of dollars, not on their value. And so the government profited, and you were worse off than you were before you got, say, a cost of living increase. Well, today our nation has one big program to help every American man, woman, and child, and it's called economic recovery. In foreign policy, we've let the world know once again that America stands for political, religious, and economic freedom of mankind. And by restoring both our military strength and a firm sense of national purpose, we've achieved an historic agreement with the Soviet Union, the INF Treaty. This treaty eliminates an entire class of US and Soviet nuclear missiles for the first time ever. Now America faces another crucial election, one that'll do much to set our course for the entire decade of the 1990s. The choice is simple. We can go forward with George Bush and Dave Karnes, or we can go back with, well, those other fellas. Back to higher taxes. Now I know that other fella claims he won't raise taxes. The truth is he just did. And not only has he hiked taxes as governor of Massachusetts, but in the last five years he's increased Massachusetts state spending at double the rate of federal spending. He spent every dime and more of the revenue generated in his state by the Reagan-Bush recovery. Back to weaker defenses. The likely Democratic nominee has proposed cut after cut in the Pentagon budget, cuts that would undermine or eliminate crucial systems and lower morale among our men and women in uniform. Of course, that other fella's trying to make it look as though he's for a strong defense. But when it comes to defense, the Democratic nominee is a sheep in wolf's clothing. Already the truth about the Democratic nominee's record is beginning to be recognized. And when the voters fully understand the difference between the shiny image and the tarnished reality, well, there's another story that sort of explains what it's going to be like. That's the one about the railroad engineer that got up one morning on the wrong side of the bed. His shoelace broke when he tried to put his shoes on, got down to the breakfast table, the coffee was cold, had trouble then getting his car started. He was running late. Then when he finally got to the yards, started the train and pulled out, looked down the line only to see another train coming toward him at full speed on the same track. He turned to the fireman. He said, have you ever had one of those days? Well, I'm convinced that for all those who want to take America back, back to the days of tax and tax spend and spend, election day 1988 is going to be one of those days. You do agree, don't you? Sure. The way forward is the way of low taxes. And believe it or not, with our tax cuts, the total revenues the government obtained from those lower rates began to go up and it's still doing that. The way forward is, as I say, low taxes, high growth. And it's the way of a strong America dedicated to the expansion of human freedom. It's the way of Republicans like George Bush and Dave Karnes. We need to have a Republican Senate so that our accomplishments of the last seven and a half years will not be undone. You know that many of our achievements came when we had our fellows in control of the Senate, just that one house. Well, I want to help George Bush have a Senate that he can work with. Dave Karnes has already proven that he's a winner. He was one of 15 Americans selected from more than 18,000 who sought application to serve as a White House Fellow in 1981. Impressed with Dave Karnes' performance, the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development asked him to stay on as Executive Assistant to the Undersecretary. He's been a member of this administration. And I must say, we were proud to have him. And now, during his time in the Senate, he stood with us on vote after vote, working to keep America strong and our economy growing. Given his background, Dave manages the family farm and continues to do so even to this day. It's no surprise that Dave has taken the lead on crucial farm legislation. He's promoted farm legislation that's fiscally responsible, market-oriented, and fair. And he's worked tirelessly to help our rural communities. And Dave is absolutely determined to see to it that America's family farms, and yes, the values they represent will be there for future generations. Family farms and the values they represent. This brings me to the subject that is, perhaps most distinguished, Dave Karnes in the United States Senate. His unshakable commitment to family values. Dave has pressed for innovative measures in education. As the father of four daughters, and with Liz's interest in education, she's on the school board in Omaha and worked for Barbara Bush on literacy projects. Education is high on Dave's list of priorities. Dave has supported anti-pornography legislation, and Dave has worked to pass tough anti-drug legislation. He believes with Nancy and me that the time has come for America to just say no to drugs. I know this is going to be a tough campaign, and so does Dave Karnes, and that's why we need your help. But I do want to let you know that the momentum is on Dave's side. He was down in the polls when this campaign first began, down by some 40%, but the people in Nebraska have gotten to know Dave Karnes, and they've grown to like him. And the latest poll taken by Dave's opponent shows that he's closing fast. That's the kind of spirit I like. You know, it reminds me of reading about a poll about another candidate in January, 1980. It was taken at the National Press Club Luncheon here in Washington on the eve of the primary season. Jimmy Carter got a large number of votes, and so did Teddy Kennedy. There's one candidate on the Republican side who got so few votes from the wise men of Washington that it wasn't even reported in the lineup. I'm not gonna tell you who that was. His initials happen to be R.R. So I have a hunch that being underestimated could turn out to be Dave's secret weapon. When it comes down to is this, the people of Nebraska can count on Senator Dave Karnes to defend freedom, to defend America, to defend the American taxpayer, and to defend the American family. It's like I said at the beginning, when it comes to the next senator from the great state of Nebraska, the best man Dave Karnes is already on the job. He's exactly the opposite of a Democratic state senator in California when I was governor. We came to a year in which we had a surplus of $850 million, and the question was what to do with it? And I said, let's give it back. And we did, we worked out a system to give it all back to the people. And one day that Democratic senator stormed into my office, and he expressed the philosophy of his party. He said, giving that money back, that's an unnecessary expenditure of public funds. So that's the way they think about it. When I said earlier, tax and tax and spend and spend, that isn't something we invented. One of them, at the height of the new deal, proudly expressed that was the policy of their party, tax and tax and spend and spend. Well, some changes have been made and we're gonna keep on making them. You just send Dave back here where he belongs. And I thank you all. God bless you all. Thank you.


The nucleocapsid protein, N, of SARS-CoV-2 plays a crucial role in the viral life cycle. It is responsible for packaging the large genome into virus particles, as well as regulating the expression of genes. Additionally, it has been shown to recognize specific RNA motifs, which are important for viral replication. Using nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy, researchers have identified the binding preferences of NS and terminal RNA binding domain, NTD, with these motifs. This study provides insight into how N recognizes and binds to specific RNA motifs, allowing for more efficient viral replication. This article was authored by Sophie Marianne Corn, Kavikei and Damatharan, Siam Jeffries, and others.


All right, people, I think we're ready here. Hola, Buenos dias. Can you say? All right, everyone. So we're gonna try to do things a little bit differently here today. We obviously have this wonderful, amazing panel full of wonderful, amazing people, but we recognize that we also have all of you amazing people in the room here. And to do things, I guess, open to that style, we actually even have an etherpad going. The link is up there. I think several people have tweeted the link. But the hope is, is that there's obviously a lot of ideas, a lot of opinions, a lot of definitions even of what interoperability is. And with kind of one of the big themes of this summit, being the interop challenge, I think it's just a great idea for everyone to get together and discuss some of these topics. So if you've got a question, like I said, don't be shy with something in the etherpad, shout it out. I can run up to you with a mic. You can do whatever you want in the etherpad. If you have your favorite ASCII yard, I don't care, that seems exciting. So all right, we might as well go ahead and get started. I think just obviously with the name of this presentation being interop, what you think it means isn't necessarily what I think it means. Maybe we should start out with whatever the official definition of interop is. And I'd like each of the panelists to introduce themselves. And Chris, being that you represent the foundation, I think you should go first. Hi everybody, my name is Chris Hodge and I'm the interop engineer for the OpenStack Foundation. And I've been working on interoperability with, you know, it's kind of my full-time job for a couple of years now. And, you know, I kind of, I think of more of a formal definition of what an interoperability means, which kind of boils down to interfaces that are discoverable, meaning that you're able to discover what an interface is and how to use it. You know, there, it's durable, meaning that it persists over time. If you think about like, you know, interoperable interfaces that we deal with every day in our lives could be like, you know, even just like power sockets, where, you know, that is they, you know, varying from country to country. It's always the same no matter where you go and it's always usable.  And so those are kind of the three conditions that I see when we talk about an interoperable interface. Awesome.  How do you view interoperability? Who do you want to guess? Yeah, whoever's most eager. I'll go first. So my name is Rob Hirschfeld. I served on the OpenStack board for four years and I am sort of the, considered the deaf core person, although I guess taken over and Mark, thank you guys for carrying the torch. And so that, and then my day job, I am a co-founder of a company that does hybrid infrastructure automation. So we really care about things like making OpenStack, Google, Amazon and Metal all work together, right, interop. So my definition for interop, after sort of going through the crucible of deaf core, is a contract. So it really comes back to a contract that multiple people have agreed to enforce. And that means that when you are using a service, that service provides a contract that you can count on to persist, both over time and across multiple vendors. So my name is Paul Chakovsky. I'm a cloud engineer at IBM. My perspective comes from the kind of operator slash user perspective. And my thoughts around interop is more about, less about the API specifically and more about the usability and the behavior. So it doesn't worry me so much if one has a slightly different API to another or has a slightly different way of giving me a network than another, just that it can give me a network and the way it does give me a network is documented well enough and supported in the ecosystem of tools for doing deployments on the cloud. That's, yeah, that's where I'm focused at thinking about interop. Okay. So my name is Katherine Diep. I work for IBM. And I have been working with Rob since day one on interop mobility for OpenStack. As you just see, each one of us have different definition of interops. So for me, the ability to be able to test whatever the definition of interop that we all agree with, I mean, still a lot of discussion and still evolving, but the testability aspect of it is essential, essential for us to know that whether we really have a common core or not. So to me, whatever interop definition that we agree with, we should never forget the testability aspect of it. And for that, why my definition is so centralized on test aspect, because I'm the PDL of the RefStack project. Awesome, thanks guys. And so just now we talked to say with our panelists that let's get some morning exercise here because let's be honest, this is pretty early for Barcelona time. Everyone varies me.  Oh yeah, I kind of figured an OpenStack conference that might be, keep your hands up everyone, keep your hands up.  Yeah, yeah, get those hands in the air, like you just don't care. All right, finally, how many of you are currently using some form of multi-cloud? If the answer is yes, and you already have two hands in the air, you better just give yourself a hug because you probably need one. So, all right, so that's good to know with the room. So, you know, to kind of get into the meat of it, we've already got kind of netted out some of the topics that we want to discuss. I think the first one, you know, why are we even talking about interoperability when here we have this thing, this amazing, wonderful universe of OpenStack, but it is just one code base. Why isn't interoperability an issue when you have just one code? So, you guys, who's most eager to... Paul, you look really eager. I'll happily take that one. So, we deploy a lot of clouds and we have like 4,000 configuration settings or something ridiculous that you can set inside of OpenStack, and each one of those in some way, shape or form, affects the behavior of the resultant cloud. You know, even if you're fairly cookie cutter at how you build them, some choices, either yours or customer choices about whether they want Swift or whether they want block storage or what the networking in the data center looks like, makes from small to large changes to the behaviors of the cloud that they end up with. You know, the APIs all might be the same, but the underlying behaviors can become quite different. Right, I'm not sure the APIs are all the same. So, I mean, I think it's a really interesting point about the idea that OpenStack is one thing. Hopefully people in the room understand it's not, just even which projects you've implemented. But the fallacy that we sort of started with when we did the DEF core work was there's a lot of discussion about using code and APIs and requiring both. And as we got into the meat of the matter, it became clear that when you look at time drift, different versions, right? OpenStack has significant variation of version to version code, APIs drift, code drift, things like that. It becomes very hard to actually point at any OpenStack cloud and say what code is in it, what code it's running, if it's the right code and things like that. And so we really found, I found is that as we got into test, it became very hard to sort of use the code as a, well, if we all use the same code, that will solve all the problems. Not even the config, you could use the same code and configure it a thousand ways. And so we really found that interop was not solved by the assumption of same codes, same behavior, same API. Yeah, all right. Chris, Katherine, anything? Yeah, I mean, kind of what they said just a second ago is that there are so many different configurations and there's so many different drivers and this is part of the openness of our community. And I actually do think that the work we've done in interoperability has helped, though, by defining what behavior there needs to be to be able to call yourself OpenStack in some official legal way. I think that it's helped define a core set of APIs and some expected behavior. And while it may not cover all the behavior that you can build out with an OpenStack cloud, I actually think that it's helped focus our community in general and it's not just the development community but also the vendor community to make them realize that even though that there is a tremendous amount of configuration options that you have, that if you drift too far away from what you consider to be what the Devcore working group has under the board and the foundation and the community has defined to be essential capabilities that a cloud has to have, that that's okay because we're open but that doesn't mean that you get to call yourself OpenStack anymore. So for me being able to test some things, my dream is I should not care what you configure, how you build your cloud. If I want a VM and connectivity with the outside world, I should be able to just get that without worry about the underlying cloud configuration. So that is the goal that we try to get to. Maybe one of the way to get to start with and we already did that is to define a very finite behavior that we all try to enforce. Just give an example. If I would like to create a VM with external connectivity as a tester, I should not care whether you use floating IP, you use a VLAN with a public accessible capability or anything like that. All I know is I would be able to create a VM and I would have connection. So that would be the goal that we would like to get to. I'd like to discuss that a little bit more. One of the things I think that's really interesting to think about with this is that a lot of people at OpenStack and OpenStack Summit are using OpenStack for their own internal function and they're trying to be successful. CERN is a great example. Huge pool of OpenStack resources that they consume internally, but that doesn't create an ecosystem on top of OpenStack. And one of the things is the board and part of the original vision going back to the first summit was to create an ecosystem around OpenStack where a vendor would say I could sell you a service or a product or an extension that would be portable for the vendor to create the ecosystem in a market, has to be able to sell it to multiple vendors. And so if they can't show up at your site with confidence that your OpenStack cloud is gonna work the way somebody else's OpenStack cloud has worked or figure out what the differences are easily, then we haven't actually created an ecosystem on top of OpenStack, right? A lot of people here are worried about just using OpenStack for their private infrastructure and they don't think about the benefits they get when we can actually move workloads or vendors or capabilities site to site to site or customer to customer to customer. It's a very important thing to build. Great, and so getting kind of onto the transition to the next point. So obviously, although we had this really amazing keynote yesterday, it's hard to order some pizzas for 16 people and figure out how to all work together to do that, let alone figure out an interoperability challenge. I mean, that's a real challenge for people. So just if we could give a round of applause for everyone who participated in that, I think that would just be amazing. How many people did? How many people are on the stage? Do we have a couple of the... Yeah, a really great job. Everyone who is involved with that. There's a lot of work going into that. Yeah, and so with that, I think it's interesting to kind of understand what was the journey that before even you get to something like an interoperability challenge. Obviously we have things like ref stack and Def Core that have for a while been looking at some of these interoperability issues, but now have kind of come to emerge as part of this challenge. How would you guys like to describe that journey? Being that you, I think many of you have been around since the beginning. Okay, let's go over together. Okay, so for me, Def Core def course defy a core that ref stack will try to test and enforce. So from that point of view, it is still at the foundation area. So with interop challenge, one of the things that we try to test is with these criteria and the testing that we have done, in reality, where are we in terms of interoperability? We go up one level at the application level. In this case, a lamp stack, how does it behave? Is our criteria good so far? If there are gap, what are they? Yeah, let's go next. So for me, about a year ago, I was actually having an argument with Rob on Twitter, which if you don't frequently have arguments with Rob on Twitter, you should do it. It's a lot of fun. And out of that, I was- They're probably trolling me now. Out of that, I was like, okay. Which is good, please. I really want to show where I think interop should work. So I put together a bunch of tooling using Terraform, which I put up on the OSOps Contrib GitHub repo that showed using Terraform to install a few things like I think it was a Docker swarm, there was Kubernetes, and there was an elk stack. And I said, look, this is how we can show interop by using like even an external ecosystem tool. And then people can run this and say, hey, this works. This doesn't work. PR changes so that it can work on their cloud as well as our cloud and kind of figure out what some of the differences are and maybe even push up to Terraform and say, hey, here are some changes we need to make to your open stack support to make it more suitable for more clouds. And given that the interop challenge actually ended up in OSOps Contrib, I'm going to take credit for most of it. Yeah. There's a Twitter we're starting right there. This is something that we really, it was a long-term vision. It took three years to go through the board process, right? Down we had to start with principles. We had to really work through what we were doing and why we were doing it. And there were a lot of compromises and pieces along the way. So it obviously as a political kind of be a very political was a political process. Because at the end of the day for interop you have to be able to say no to things and you can't say no in an arbitrary way in a community like this. You have to give reasons, you have to give rationale, you have to give waiting and a process to do it. And so one of the things that is worth thinking through with this interop question is when you say this is the standard part of open stack, that means there's a whole bunch of stuff that's not.  And you have to be able to have a process that says, yes, this has become a standard part and this one hasn't. So ref stack is a big part of that. That's why it's been doing that for a long time. Defcore is the process by which we say yes and no to things. And it has to be transparent and predictable. And actually one of the things that was really important for us early on is it has to drive community behaviors. So if you create a system that allows gamification of the APIs, those APIs have commercial value. And it's important when you think about, hey, we're talking about interop and making all this stuff work, it's a big deal. But we also don't wanna create interop in a way that advantages one vendor or has them pull the project in strange ways. And so you have to put that hat on when you think about this in a historic perspective. And it's not just about the definition of interoperability that the Defcore working group has come up with, that so much of the success on stage yesterday depended upon tools that the community built in the OpenStack ecosystem. And you can talk about the library shade, which it was kind of originally joked as, every line of shade should be considered a bug because it's something where there's a difference between clouds in OpenStack. But I think that the authors of that library have changed their point of view on that and they're actually seeing it as the interoperability library that once we accept that there are going to be some level of differences between clouds and our ecosystem, shade provides us a common way to access those clouds. And for the end user, it hides some of those differences like Catherine was talking about. If you only care about booting a machine with a network on it, then shade is a way that allows you to do that. So it's not just work that's done by the Defcore committee, but also work that's been done by our community, by the people who are using clouds on a day-to-day basis. And I think that it really speaks to the strength and maturity of OpenStack that we had 16 different clouds on stage, including different processor architectures. Great, I was just about to ask, if anyone has any questions, we actually have t-shirts for those that you are ready to get involved. Yeah? One size fits all t-shirts. Yeah, Chris, we're happy that you mentioned shade because when we did the Interrupt Challenge, that's the tool that we use the most. Well, that's the only tool we use, actually. Yes, well, yeah. So, my question is that, moving forward, the Interrupt Challenge group, how do we work with the shade project and make sure that whatever we find that you find actually influence that project so that the API is very capable of doing what we want it to do? I mean, it's an open project within our ecosystem and so that's one of the nice things about it is as people's needs grow, they can grow the capabilities of the library too. But also, from the point of view of the Interoperability Working Group, how that informs us, we have criteria that helps us to find what we want the next, what we think are the APIs that are important to try to enforce across clouds and shade in some sense becomes a tool identifying what the APIs are that real cloud users are using and we can take that into account when we're evaluating current and future APIs for inclusion. Okay, thanks. I don't share the enthusiasm for shade. I agree with the original idea that shade's a defect. And I think that while it gives us sort of a way to cope with the fact that we have a lot of heterogeneity among the cloud infrastructures, it keeps us from actually solving the problems because shade's a Python library. If you're consuming the clouds from other libraries or even from the OpenStack CLI, you don't get those benefits. And then it's still, it puts the onus back on the user or the person creating a configuration file within shade. It doesn't actually address the underlying interoperability problems that OpenStack has. And even more, when I look at interoperability, because I have tooling that works on Amazon, Google, OpenStack, right, physical infrastructure, the differences, behavior differences, going back to one of Paul's points, the behavior differences in those different clouds is very concerning. And the fact that we can gloss over that with a Python library keeps us from having a hard discussion about fixing those fundamental problems, making the APIs discoverable so I can ask an OpenStack cloud, what implementation have I done? So, we're hiding it for somebody, it made the interop challenge work well because we had a Python tool calling into OpenStack, but I don't think that that's the same as actually creating real interoperability. When I talk to people in the field, they use Amazon and Google as much or more than OpenStack. And so interoperability with those platforms is important to our user community in a very significant way, and we need to consider that. That, to me, is as much a part of this discussion, should be as much a part of this discussion. Clearly, what you're saying, and I think there was one of the presentations at the summit where somebody's showing from the horizon dashboard going to Amazon or whatever, I think you're making some valid points that we're always customer-driven and crawl was, all right, make sure all these OpenStacks are operable and then a second phase, like you're saying, is, okay, now let's make this work well with these other clouds. The, yeah, I don't mean to diminish the challenge. The challenge was a significant accomplishment and it shows where we've gotten to with API interoperability and the fact that Defcore and RefStack are helping people get to a point where the APIs are consistently working, which is a big deal. It certainly is, when we started this stuff back at the San Diego Summit, that you couldn't count on OpenStack APIs at the most basic levels to work together. There were all these extensions, it was crazy. So, yay, huge. But I also think that it's easy in a community like this to take something that sort of is a bomb, say, all right, we don't have to worry about that and fix it, and it's harder to keep the focus on the hard problems. But I don't think that the two exist in isolation from one another. That's one thing that I've seen in the two years since I started this work is there has been, what I would almost consider a recommitment from the community to preserve API compatibility across versions. And so you look at things like Cinder, which just announced the version three library, which is actually entirely backwards compatible with the version two. Or you look at work that's being done within the Glance community, in part as a direct response to the concerns raised by the Defcore working group about how to build a discoverable image API that still allows you to have multiple implementations or even implementations that have recently landed in Neutron about just a single API for attaching a network. These are all things that we don't wanna take all of the credit for that, but the work that we've been doing with Defcore has helped drive some of that development. And I'd like to point out that actually, I think in many ways, Defcore kicked off the whole awareness of the multiple ways of doing things and the need to actually converge. And now there are multiple projects that are actually working towards that. We've got the Defcore rev stack, we've got the interop challenge. We have the open stack client. We have the API working group. I think the real key to keep this going and spur it on is to get, it is also happening right now and that the node pool is being expanded to be much more multi-node testing as opposed to the old DevStack model of everything on a single machine. And when the developers start feeling more of the pain and start seeing the differences and they are starting to do that, I think we are as a community starting to converge and I think that's a sign of maturity. And to me, API is the foundation layer. If the API level does not interop, shade, terraform, Ansible, it will not work. So to me, that foundation layer that Defcore has been coughing out this limited important API that need to be interop or compatible for all open stack ecosystem, it's important foundation layer. So back on the shade topic a little bit, I don't really feel like each line of shade demonstrates a defect. I think it's more each line of shade demonstrates somewhere we could probably improve things. The way I look at things, if you're using the CLI or Horizon or whatever, you're probably not doing a ton of stuff like complicated things. If you're doing complicated things, you're gonna be using something out in the ecosystem like terraform or Ansible or share for puppet or whatever, or one of the many cloud SDKs and going that way and doing the whole infrastructure as code thing. And if you're doing that, then we have ways of working with differences in the different clouds. We just need to know that they exist and we just need to find out what the capabilities are or what the differences are. Which is kind of what Rob was touching on and figuring out like can we ask the cloud to tell us what it supports or can we at least get good pointers to documentation and can we get people working out with the ecosystem, working with terraform, like go for cloud, lib cloud, all those things to help bridge those gaps and bring shade like usability into some of those other tools that are commonly used. And we probably have information about what those tools in the OpenStack user survey and stuff. So that may help us target which of those tools are the best ones to really show off as like best of breed. These are the best ones to use with OpenStack and then hopefully that will encourage the rest of the ecosystem to improve themselves because it forms some healthy competition. So I think that's an interesting point. The issue, Mark has a question next. The issue that shade, the shade configuration file is maybe the defect and the extent to which you could inspect an OpenStack cloud and get that configuration information, that would be sufficient in my mind. It's the fact that you have to put an entry into a file that says this is the behavioral characteristics of my OpenStack cloud. One thing that we sort of gloss over but was a huge point in this, when Defcore came out, it's not a version, it's not an OpenStack version spec. And this is a really important point for people to think about with OpenStack. The Defcore standards are dates. They say on this date, this is what we expect your behavior to be. And then you can go back and say, I wanna go back to the 2016 March spec and I would need you to conform to that. We're not saying it's cactus or kilo or mataka or Liberty. It's this is the API spec that we conform to on those dates. And so it becomes a sliding window of date conformance. So it's important when you think about interop to not, you're not supposed to care what version somebody's running. And that is, it's a very different thought process if you're used to thinking about, oh, I started running Liberty and it's gonna solve these problems. From an interop perspective, it's not about Liberty or any version. It's about the behaviors that you get. So one of the themes you're kind of both hitting on there is discoverability, which has been kind of a hot topic with Defcore lately. And especially on the operator side, that's operator choices seem to impact discoverability a lot more. And so it's things like, I can make a change to policy.json that says you can't upload an image to my cloud. Right? And there's actually no good way to discover that if you're a client other than try and fail. Which is kind of a terrible thing for end users. So since we have an operator on the end of the bar here, one of the interesting things is that neither Defcore guidelines today, nor the interoperability challenge really address the operator side of things. Defcore doesn't accept tests that require admin credentials. And the interoperability challenge was an end user workload, right? So, and one of the things that you said, Paul, was that the APIs aren't necessarily the thing that you guys care about. It's more of the behavioral differences. So what does a set of tests look like for an operator that would be good for interoperability? I might have to talk into this mic over here. You know what, I'll stall for you. So Paul thinks that this is a really challenging question. That actually gave me a couple moments to think. So I think, I mean, when we're doing CI for our tooling, we are doing, can I spin up a VM? Can I attach a sender volume to it? Can I attach an IP address to it? We're doing a lot of that sort of stuff. So I think being able to codify scenarios and moving those and really testing out the behaviors, maybe even doing something a little bit complex like docker swarm or all the way up to something crazy like Kubernetes where there's a lot going on and you're testing a lot of the capabilities of the cloud rather than just a couple of things and you're testing them all as a unit together rather than saying, I span up a machine. I span it down. I created a sender volume. I destroyed the sender volume. I put a thing in a bucket. I deleted the thing in the bucket. Right. I think that when we look at, I've become a big fan of splitting the def core tests from Tempest because Tempest really tests utility like that. And I think that def core should add tests that actually test behaviors. Did I get a Linux machine? Do I have Sentos available? Do I have an externally accessible network? That I can, those things are actually operable issues that somebody's trying to use the cloud cares about. And I'm actually a big fan of splitting those out. From an admin perspective, this is way deep legacy but def core used to score, initially, scored admin tests and we, for good reasons, push them off into the future. But the goal was not to never have admin tests. It was to say that we would have different classes of tests and that we would eventually get to specialized silos of core plus admin, core plus telcom, core plus something else. And I would love to see that come back in. It's just, we're not as fast as I was hoping we were a couple of years ago. But what you mentioned, especially around, you know, not being able to upload a glance image until you try, that's pretty bad and it's pretty common all across a lot of things. And the error message you get back even then are not like, it doesn't say you can't do this because of a policy setting. It just says error kind of thing. So, getting better errors into the clients is very important. A lot of the times, the only way to find out what happened is to read the logs and you don't necessarily want to give the user access to read the logs on the hypervisor that they're trying to launch a VM on. And one last thing about, you know, operators of clouds, I mean, from the administrative point of view of watching a number, you know, over 40 vendors now, you know, running the tests and submitting passing test results is the clouds that have the most difficult time passing are the ones where the operators haven't been testing, where they've made decisions about, you know, implementation decisions or they've made changes to code and they're not running the tests to understand how those changes impact the behavior of the APIs. And so one of the best things that you can do if you are operating a cloud, if you are selling a cloud to somebody is to actually be continuously testing what you're doing to make sure that the changes don't have unexpected side effects for your users because that's been the biggest pain point for everybody who's been trying to pass their operability is they come in, they make a change and they don't, and that change, they may think that they've covered that change in how it impacts one API but they don't realize that it changes the behavior of other APIs. And I just want to add that if you do the test, please test the whole set of APIs and not just the must pass test. With that set of API, you give us a lot of data so that we can do a more meaningful next set of, divide the next set of must pass test. So maybe what we need is like a wall of shame somewhere with a list of the logos of the vendors that aren't fully testing or testing it all from Devcore. And we can put that up on the big screen of the keynotes. The board actually took an action when we were in this process to specifically not have walls of shame but it was a very good idea. It looks like we're taking an action today so. That's actually a funny thing too because there are members of the community who will actually come out very vociferously against particular clouds and say that you're behaving badly, you're doing something this way. And again, in my personal experience, I found that that isn't, it's useful to know that when someone has a problem, when a product has a problem but it's also recognizing that I don't think anybody in this community is out to create vendor things that are exclusive to them. Generally when they're part of a community, they want to do the right thing and again in my personal experience is when I communicate with them, when I communicate the problems in a way that understands the vendor's concerns because we are a community that's made up of users, developers and vendors. They typically want to go back and do the right thing in their product and I've seen that several times. Once we told them what the right thing was. We were just about out of time so I need to get you guys off here but we've kind of, I think, gotten into some of the other questions but unless there's any other questions in the audience right now, I'd love to hear, where do you guys think, where do we go from here? Where, you know, what direction do you think will continue to set things going? I need a moment to think. Okay, so for me, Interability is a journal. So we started three years ago. We are getting somewhere with the latest guideline. We have about more than 200 tests and we're including the five most important project in there. So that is an improvement but we know this is a journey and there's a lot of good input here and that's what we need, the community involvement to keep working on the interability. I think the biggest success that we'll have is when interoperability is just entirely boring where people don't think about it. You've tested, you run, you know that OpenStack Clouds work and I think we're on that path. I think that we're on that path and that we're gonna reach that point in a year or two. I think we're doing good work. I agree with those points. I think that it's important for the users, people consuming OpenStack Clouds, to ask the vendors, ask their ops teams to conform to the tests. That the biggest liability I see or danger I see with interoperability in OpenStack is that it's not a user consumer driven thing right now. That will make the vendors conform and adopt and move faster. So we have to have people in this room, we have to have people in the community asking and demanding that the interop tests are being followed. That's where the power of DEF course gonna come from in the interoperability committee.  Yeah, I think I would really like to see a lot more people looking through the stuff on the OSOps repo. There's Terraform, there's Antibole. I mean, it might be some heat as well for deploying a bunch of interesting tooling and to have more people, whether they're users or vendors or operators, testing those out on your clouds and maybe making pull requests, improve them and make them more interoperable. I know when I was doing the Terraform ones, I made a few decisions that were like, these are pretty blue box specific, but I can guess at what other people are doing or I can just leave those specific things in there. So I would bet a bunch of them, if you tried to run them on your cloud, they would like almost work, not quite work. And I would like to find those parts and keep improving them and have like a place you can send people to. Here are some really good, you're like reference level versions of the Elk stack or whatever it is that you can install using these tools to help you learn what the cloud's capabilities are and also how to use tools to interact with them in a very DevOps-y and think-of-quotes way. And I'm pretty sure we're all out of time here, but did wanna remind people, I believe, is it at 11 a.m. that I think Catherine and Brad have another session discussion in the interop challenge? And Rocky. And Rocky, and so everyone is invited to that because I think there's still a lot more to be discussed and I think it'd be great to continue discussion Are there any last questions for me in the room? Or I think, like I said, let's be respectful to the next set of presenters in this room. So hi, I'm the guy who's basically responsible for ensuring that Cloud Foundry installs on an open stack. I'm so sorry. Yeah, and from the most recent user survey we saw, this is like the second most popular workload people install on an open stack. And still it's like almost impossible to make sure that it installs on Bluebox as well as on all of the other open stacks which are out there, right? So I'm still not sure after following this discussion, how are we going to improve that? I mean, it's like you're saying that vendors should adhere to a set of tests. Unfortunately, everything covered in Revstack or Devcore is way insufficient to make sure it installs which led us to basically develop our own test suite, right? So we are now pushing that out to people saying, hey, if you run that and everything is green, then you're about to be sure that it actually installs. This should work out of the box, right? This is... So as we say, this is a journey. So absolutely, we're not there. So what you say is where we want to get to. When we started this, and Chris, Rob can talk and Mark can talk about this, when we define the set of Devcore criteria, the mean to start with is to get community involvement. We don't mean to fail a lot of people to begin with. So to attract community involvement is goal number one. Of course, getting to the stage where you say you can test your Cloud Foundry. It's just a workload that you call the underlying API. That is where we want to get to. Are we there yet? I don't think so. And you know that. Yeah, and just for my personal interest, would you put a link to the Cloud Foundry tests into the etherpad we have up here? Because I think I'm interested in seeing it. Right. This to me reinforces what I'm trying to say about it has to be client-driven, right? If the end users aren't putting pressure on the vendors about, hey, wait a second, you passed Devcore, the ref stack, but you didn't, it still doesn't work. It's still not compatible. That lets us bring more tests into it. It lets us continue to tighten what those compatibility issues are. But it can't just be something that's done from the board down. It really has to be the consumers saying, I want compatible Clouds. I want a tighter spec. And the vendors have to do it. There are vendors who don't participate in this effort. Major vendors who don't participate in this effort. And so when you think about that, there's plenty of people who can ship OpenStack, meet the, I'll be brutally honest, there are vendors who can meet the spec and ship an OpenStack and set it up and it won't conform in the field. Yeah, exactly. That is your experience that is what you are seeing. And the only way we're gonna get that to stop is when the people who are buying that cloud run ref stack themselves and say, WTF vendor, fix this. That's how that gets fixed. Otherwise, it's not gonna, all we're doing is creating some nice marketing blitz at that point, until the users care and tell the vendors they're not gonna accept it. Okay, thanks. All right, I think we're painfully over time here. I just wanna thank all the panelists and everyone in attendance. I think this is a great session. Thank you very much. Thanks. Thank you. That's actually a good closing comment.