All right. Good morning. Good afternoon everybody. Welcome to the July edition of the Wikimedia Research Showcase. My name is Dario and I'm very excited to have here today with me Andrew Holt from University of Minnesota to present on this current work. Andrew has been working with us at the Wikimedia Foundation to help us understand the value of structured data, specifically wiki data, and he's been doing some really fascinating work to understand how peer production communities work around the creation and reuse of structured data. So I'm really excited to have you here and here today. I think it's going to be a fascinating discussion for many people in our audience. Wikidata contributors, OpenStreetMap, people working on structured data on Wikimedia Commons. So without further ado, let's take you to yours. Thank you, Dario, for the introduction and thanks for inviting me and thanks everybody who is attending. So let's see here. Looks like we're screen sharing. So I have to say that everyone here is familiar with the massive success that has been peer production communities over peer production communities like Wikipedia and OpenStreetMap. Over the last 15 years or so, you know, Wikipedia has produced 40 million articles and in the case of OpenStreetMap, OpenStreetMap has produced nearly four billion nodes. So as Benkler pointed out, one of the key factors in the success of peer production thus far has been contributor freedom. People can generally do what they want in the way that they want. Recently, there have been some entirely new initiatives in these communities rather than focusing on largely unstructured data. These initiatives have put more focus on producing structured data. So these sorts of efforts have surfaced in the form of Wikidata and in the increased emphasis on tags in OpenStreetMap. So structured data in these contexts are essentially key value pairs. And if you ever use InfoBoxes in Wikipedia, you've used peer-produced structured data, or if you've used Google Knowledge Graph and Google Search, you probably have as well. And we're going to focus today on OpenStreetMap or OSM for short. So if you ever use Craigslist, for example, you've used structured data from OSM, Apple Maps and Foursquare, and others also use OSM's data. So OSM produces geographic data about roads and buildings and many other things. And this data can have metadata, which describe properties of those things. So metadata, structured data, and tag data are all really referring to the same thing in OSM. So these new initiatives towards structured data, such as the one in OSM are different because applications using structured data need it to be standardized in order for it to be useful. They really need it to follow rules. However, we talked about contributor freedom being important in these communities, and this potentially runs into conflict with this need for data standardization. And so what we decided to explore this tension between freedom and standardization, and so we asked a research question, how does OSM's strong commitment to contributor freedom affect its efforts to produce standardized data? And so here's what I'm going to do in my talk. So I'm going to tell you what you need to know about the OSM tagging standard, then I'll tell you about my method and results, and then I'll reflect on some implications for OSM and beyond. So in order for data to be standardized, there must be some sort of data rules. The OSM community has a tagging standard and it's actually a wiki. So here's a page for a tag in the wiki. This tag is amenity equals fast food. So in this case, amenity is the key and fast food is the value. Each tag in the wiki has instructions of when it should be applied. So we can see that right here. The standards in the wiki are global standards that are created through community consensus. I'll talk more about the wiki throughout this talk. So moving on, so to explore the tension of freedom versus standardization, we decided to interview OSM contributors and we performed 15 interviews in a semi-structured format. So we used the OSM mailing lists and an OSM forum and then also a snowball sampling to recruit. Our questions focused on the process of creating OSM's tagging standard and applying it. So after the interviews, we performed a data-driven analysis on our interview transcripts. This involved affinity diagramming and led to high-level results in the data related to freedom versus standardization becoming apparent. So what were the results? Well, so we arrived at three high-level concepts which were all, as I said, related to freedom versus standardization and we'll talk about two of these today. So we'll talk about code and correctness. Code relates to how data entry tools and OSM's data standard affect data production. Correctness relates to the factors affecting correct or incorrect application of OSM's data standard. Let's talk about code first and I'll talk about correctness afterwards. So let's get into a bit more detail about what I mean by code. So Lawrence Lessig argued that the code of a system constitutes an architecture that constrains human behavior and it does this by allowing or forbidding different actions. Our interview has talked about how OSM's tag data model constrains contributors' ability to represent the real world correctly. So as we know, a tag in OSM is a key value pair. Additionally, an entity you're mapping can have only one instance of a certain key and that instance can have only one value. Well, these constraints do not align with entities in the real world sometimes and this can cause problems during the process of tagging. One of our participants talked about this. So he used mapping a hotel that is also a restaurant as an example. He said tagging is hard in this context since it's a restaurant with a hotel upstairs so it isn't really two things. It's just one thing. To further shed light on this point, let me give you another example. So we see a couple of different US OSM Panera Bread locations right here and since these Panera Breads are instances of the same business and they're located both in the US and the same country, we think that they'd be tagged the same way. Well, the left-hand Panera Bread is tagged as a minute equals fast food and the right-hand one is tagged as a minute equals cafe. The result of these two different taggings is two different icons on the map. Which of these taggings is correct? Well, that's kind of a complicated question. I go to Panera Bread sometimes and I've bought coffee there and I've also had some quick meals. So it's sort of both a cafe and a fast food restaurant but because of the constraints of the OSM data model, only one of these tags can actually be applied. And just another example here plays out for say a Dairy Queen. I'd like to be able to indicate in OSM that I'm mapping, that a Dairy Queen that I'm mapping has a cuisine of both ice cream and burgers but the code in the data model constrains me here to just one tag. And the result is that applications using this data, this OSM data, are going to be provided with an incomplete picture of this entity. So moving on, as we said, Leszig argued that that code constrains human behavior and he was arguing that there's power in code and we can actually see this power in OSM as well. Excuse me. Contributors are allowed to create tools to... For example, some tools provide tag recommendations. These recommenders are called presets and they tend to really influence what tag data people apply. Our interviewees noted that presets actually have their own tagging standards. For example, one of our interviewees P8 said, there's not a single source for those presets. It's all manually done by the developers of the tool. So those who create the preset code constrain other contributors by creating de facto standards and importantly the contributor freedom of code creators limits the freedom of others to influence OSM. It also results in code creators not following community standards. And finally, of course, the Wiki itself which tells people what tags to use and how to tag objects is itself code. It is a constraint on behavior itself. So now moving to correctness, which is the other high level concept or theme within our results that we're going to talk about. So we found out that because OSM originated in the Western world, Western concepts and definitions have been embedded into the correctness standards within the Wiki. Because of this fact, OSM standards sometimes do not work well when mapping outside of the Western world. However, interestingly, we found that the OSM community's ethos of contributor freedom allows for rules to be broken in these cases. Incorrect data can then be applied. Specifically for roads, the Western assumptions and the tagging standard confused our participants and resulted in them breaking tagging rules when mapping outside of the West. For example, one of our participants, P11, she was a Westerner and she mapped remotely in Africa. Given her Western background, she was hesitant when applying a Westernized tagging standard in Africa. She said, someone says this is a highway and I'm like, I disagree. I'm really afraid to map that as a highway if I think, for example, a vehicle can't go down it. So someone from the US, when I think of, say, the concept of an average highway, I think of roads that are probably paved and have a couple of lanes for car travel, something like this, which is here in the United States. However, as our participant mentioned, mapping throughout the world with a tag that represents this Western world concept doesn't always work well. For example, in less developed regions, both of the roads seen here had the same highway classification tag in OSM. It's worth noting that OSM originated in Britain and our participants actually talked about how British terms and concepts have had a particularly heavy influence on OSM's tagging standard. And even as an American in the US map, there are scenarios where OSM's cultural assumptions are confusing to me. When I go to Walgreens or CVS, I don't think of these stores as a chemist. I think of them as pharmacies. So here's another example of freedom allowing for incorrect data application. This one occurred during a humanitarian open street map or HOT as it's called mapping efforts after the Nepal earthquake in 2015. In this example, they were mapping HOT, was mapping remotely using aerial imagery. So our participant told us, we do bend the rules slightly with humanitarian open street map. We wanted to help the aid agencies to reach remote places. So what we were doing online was trying to identify helicopter landing sites and what we did was we found the tag for helicopter landing site. Let's pause there. So here's the Wiki instructions for this tag. The tag is arrowway equals helipad as summarized in this picture. Well, as summarized in the picture, it describes a helicopter landing site as infrastructure explicitly made for the purpose of a helicopter landing. Let's jump back to the rest of this quote. And he continued by saying, and what we would do is look for a clearance of 30 meters that was level land near a village. And we labeled that as a helicopter landing site. So based on the tagging standard, they were clearly bending the rules here. The tag was designed for something like this top photo that we see here, but they were labeling areas that were more like the fields in the bottom photo. And it turns out that a half a month after the Nepal earthquake, the OSM Wiki was actually updated with a new tag to account for this different definition of helipad. This new tag was emergency equals landing site. So HOTS actions, humanitarian open street maps actions led to incorrect data, but eventually succeeded in driving the evolution of the global tagging ontology and OSM. Some work by Palin at all stated that HOT is quote a driver of OSM's evolution. And that is, this is a good example of that right here. We certainly see that. So as a final example of freedom allowing for incorrect tag applications, one of our interviewees even created a tag to born that quote pretentious pubs served bad in house ketchup. So, you know, we see that contributors are free to break road and helipad tagging standards and even to, you know, go so far as to create some ridiculous ketchup tag. And we also saw with the helipad example that HOT has the power to influence the standards that can use their freedom to enact change. But are there other groups that that can or cannot define what is correct in OSM? Well, so there's been some work by Monica Stevens that has discussed how new tag proposals for feminized or nurturing spaces are given less quote attention. Also, one of our interviewees mentioned that she had quote heard of women not being listened to or respected in OSM. More generally, hostility seems to also be commonplace in OSM and this may have the effect of limiting its victims influence and activity in the community and leaving just those who are hostile or who are willing to tolerate hostility. Another of our female participants talked about this issue. She said, sometimes the email lists be very toxic. People feel like they can say things that they wouldn't say to someone else's face. Here it's worth saying again that, you know, related to our high level concept of code, the code and tools such as presets established the facto standards and less in contributor freedoms to influence standards. So moving up a level while freedom can allow for contributors to break the rules, freedom when left unchecked may allow groups such as code creators or males or hostile contributors to limit others freedom to influence the community. So now that we've discussed results, I wanted to talk about some implications for OSM. So as we discussed, our interviewees talked about this problematic one key one value data model restriction. So it seems that the community should consider some data model changes to better accommodate the nature of of entities in the real world. I think an interesting direction for future work is to try to understand the process through which mapping projects in OSM interact with the global community. We saw that hot that humanitarian open street map broke and then updated rules. It'd be interesting to see how often this process occurs. I think it'd be also interesting to look into mechanisms that can facilitate how projects like hot negotiate tagging standards with the rest of OSM. And finally, I think that, you know, future work should look into ways to better incorporate these diverse views that we talked about into OSM's tagging standard. Now I want to briefly move up a level here and talk about peer production communities more generally. So there's this tension between freedom and standardization that we talked about in communities like open street map and in wiki data. And we've demonstrated some problems resulting from freedom in this talk. However, I think that simply lessening freedoms is not likely a good solution. Contributor freedom has played after all a large role in the success of these communities. And when you do start enforcing too many rules, there can be negative effects on the community. For example, you know, there's been work showing that too many rules hurts newcomer retention in Wikipedia. So some balance between, you know, freedom and rules, or you can say between freedom and standardization needs to be found. And I think that the issues that we talked about today that contribute to freedom affecting standardization are general problems. And they may likely appear in, for example, wiki data as well. Because in wiki data, there are after all global concepts and entities just as there are in OSM. And I'd like to reiterate that, you know, as I illustrated at the beginning of the talk, we all use this data. We all use peer produced structured data, whether in the context of Google Knowledge Graph or Wikipedia Info Boxes or other applications, Craigslist, Apple Maps. And that's why this tension between freedom and standardization in this context really matters. So with that, I'll wrap up the presentation. And I'd like to thank my collaborators at the University of Minnesota and Northwestern University and also at McAllister College. I'd also like to thank those who provided some feedback on this work and the NSF and the US Department of Education for funding. So thank you and please feel free to contact me at this email listed right here. And I'm also happy to take some questions now. Thank you, Andrew. There was a fascinating presentation. So I have several questions, but I want to ask first Jonathan if you can relay anything from the IRC channel. Yeah, we have two questions from IRC. One from user pigs on the wing. Question is what is being done in OSM to address these issues and who leads on it? It's a good question. I think that to my knowledge, a lot of these issues are, I'm not aware of what is being done to, for example, resolve gender gaps. And it seems like it's been a recurring issue for several years now at this point. And I guess it's a common problem across other communities as well, unfortunately. I think I may have misunderstood the question. I think that it's possible that pigs on was also asking. So the user observes, I know some women are who are involved in RL OSM events, but it seems to me a more predominantly male community than Wikimedia. And then so in that case, the follow question is, are there things being done at OSM to address the gender gap issues specifically? I am not aware of, I did not, from our participants, I was not aware of anything that was occurring. I do know that there is a large gender disparity in OpenStreetMap. It's quite distinct to us, maybe 96 or 97% of contributors were male, if I remember right from one study that I saw. So it's quite, it's quite, you know, polar, it's quite biased towards males. Yeah. One other question from IRC from Aaron Havaker, user Havak. Can we have our cake and eat it too? Is adaptability of the data model based on new understanding a solution or is the problem more social? New understanding. So I think he's asking, if we know that these contested tag values exist and the reason why they're contested, is making the data model itself support, say, multiple values for a tag, the solution or is there an underlying social set of challenges that wouldn't be addressed by a strictly technical solution? That's a good question. And I'm not aware of social issues that have, everybody comes in OpenStreetMap, everybody's coming from a different view. So there's oftentimes cultural differences regarding what something should be called. And we didn't talk about that so much in this presentation, but there's, in the interviews, there was a lot of discussion about, you know, somebody from Britain would say, well, this is called this. It was like a, for example, there was some sort of entity that they were trying to tag for boat supplies. And the British group of OSM contributors came in and said, this is a ship's chandlery or something like that, some word that's very distinct. It's not something that, if you're in the US, you would necessarily understand or other parts of the world, probably. And so I think that there would still be, even if the data model changed to allow multiple values, like something maybe more similar to wiki data, I think that there would still be a lot of debate regarding what those values should be in the data standards. So in some ways it's very much a social problem too. Thank you. That's all from RFC so far, or IRC so far. Okay, I'm going to ask a question next. I have a question and comment to consider the comment for later. The first question is related to the role that downstream consumers play in these decisions. Having worked with structured data communities myself for quite a while, I'm aware of the fact that very often what matters to downstream data consumers is consistency and correctness, often at the cost of diversity or incusiveness, which is funny because it ends up creating data tech data or major quality issues if they have data that is biased in the beginning. But I've seen communities of experts, ontologists trying to grapple with the idea that not just the contents, but even the data models could evolve in wiki data, for example. And I'm curious if in any of your interviews you had any indication of how to accommodate this needs that are legitimate in a way that is still allowing the community to preserve its freedom. Has there been any discussion in your interviews with people either directly being representing downstream consumers of data or people are voicing concerns from these groups? Yeah, we did talk to downstream consumers of the data. Well, one thing I think that not just downstream consumers of the data talked about, but pretty much everybody we talked to, or a large number of people we talked to, reiterated was open stream map data is not being created for, it's not, I don't believe a priority of open stream map data is to have something that's consistent globally. That's not the first priority. The first priority is making maps that are usable locally by people. For example, if you're mapping, we talked to some people who are mapping in Asia, and they wanted to map when they were going out mapping, they wanted to map not for the Western tourists or people who would be coming there from someplace else or some large application that might like to use this data, but they wanted to be mapping in a way that made sense for locals. For example, you're not tagging some sort of a fuel station in a country as a gas station if it doesn't make sense to be tagged that way. If it's not the Western definition of a fuel station, then don't tag it that way. Tag it in a way that the locals will understand. That was a really common theme that we saw open stream map is tag for local users. Does that answer your question? That's good. Yeah, this is something we could discuss for hours. There's one more question and it may have another comment later on. Awesome. So my question, this is a question for me. My question is about detection. So I know, Andrew, you've been doing research on wiki data as well, and I'm curious whether you have any insights or ideas around whether we could, what approaches we could take to potentially detect these kinds of tensions or conflict around structured data on wiki data. So we know that we can assume that they're because wiki data is a big project and it reflects like all technology does the biases of the people who created it that there could very well be these kinds of conflicts between the intended use or meaning of a tag, say. And in your study, you used interviews to kind of uncover some of these tensions. Can you think of other methods that could be used to kind of either retrospectively or even in near real time detect where conflicts like this are occurring? Yeah, that's a good question. And in the case of wiki data, I'm not as, I haven't talked to people who are making these decisions as much as I have in OpenStreetMap. And so I'm not exactly sure the processes that are going on there. That's a very tough question. And in OpenStreetMap, a lot of these discussions are going on in mailing lists. And it's sort of an informal process, a very informal process to talk about how something should be tagged. And our interviews often talked about how very few people actually were involved in this process. You might have 10 people involved in the process of talking about how this new tag should be used and what's it going to look like. And people didn't feel like that was authoritative at all. And that was a big problem in OpenStreetMap. And so I think finding ways to increase the authority of the process, to increase awareness of the process are important in both communities. And like I said, I'm not as familiar with the wiki data process of proposing properties or things like that. But that was a huge thing in OpenStreetMap. You'd have these big decisions that are being made and only a few people who are actually chiming in on them. I'm not sure if it was a question of just a remnant of the mailing lists being kind of hard to keep up with them. I mean, I think certainly some other factors played into it as well, including things like hostility and sexism that we talked about. And then as one of our participants talked about in the presentation, sometimes females didn't feel like their voices were being heard. And so not everybody is able to take part in this process unfortunately. So there's some underlying factors that need to be worked on as well in order to make this more inclusive. And when that happens, then I think it'll be a more successful process of defining these standards. Awesome. Thank you. No other questions from IRC? Okay, so I might just make this comment and ask this question. It relates to the comment that Jonathan just made about the minimum and the expectations that people have around community spaces where data modeling work happens. My experience has been that both with OSM but also Wikidata, most of the data modeling discussions tend to happen on a wiki-style like 3-form, you know, page, mostly text-based, and with a typical structure of a wiki. So a page anyone can edit, threaded discussions and so on. And it strikes me that when we're talking about, you know, the issues of including more voices, not just when it comes to cultural breadth, but also bridging the divide between experts and volunteers. It's another big topic that we've seen in Wikidata, for example. These spaces are not really suited for doing a job. In other words, the constraints on the channel, both in terms of design and norms of where discussions happen, themselves affect who participated and how they can participate. For example, it is really, really hard for a bibliographic metadata expert to be able to just make a technical comment on a specific data modeling solution if that discussion is part of a very complex thread on a wiki page where somebody doesn't even know how to interact militarily with them. So the comment that I have is something that I'm seeing more and more is that, one, all of these communities do the data modeling work using basically wiki-based interfaces, which to me is a suboptimal solution, and B, this creates barriers that I don't think have been fully articulated about participation in these efforts. So I don't have any thoughts on this. Yeah, at least one of our participants echoed that view that some of the decisions are made on the wiki pages in OpenStreetMap about tagging aside from the mailing list. And technical, you know, that you have to know how to edit the wiki pages, and a lot of people didn't really do that that we talked to. In fact, very few people that we talked to seem to put much time into editing the wiki pages, and oftentimes it's really confusing to edit these pages. And yeah, so that was definitely something that we saw. And we also, you'd sometimes see people who just did not want to get caught up in this process of defining standards. They just wanted to go out and map. They didn't want to, they didn't want to get bogged down and get into this bureaucratic process of figuring out, you know, what should we call this?  Oftentimes they're interested in a very specific thing, and they'll just go do that. They won't worry about the process. And so making something, streamline that process of making people aware of what's being voted on, so that if they're interested in that domain within OpenStreetMap, you know, maybe they're interested in bike paths or something like that, or railways or something. You know, there's a lot of niche areas that people are interested in, and if they're interested in those areas, they're probably going to have opinions on how those things should be tagged. And so I think facilitating them in that process of getting involved is very important and not being fully done at this point. Right. Yeah, totally consistent with what I've seen. Does anyone on IRC or in the audience who knows of research on this topic, basically how to increase engagement on collaborative data modeling efforts? I'd be really, really interested in learning more about that. Thank you. So Jonathan, any final comment, blessing, question from IRC? Nothing. Nothing at the moment. So, yes. Thank you very much, Andrew. This has been great. Okay. Thank you again for having me. And happy to continue the conversation on Wikis and see you all next month with our next showcase. Thank you, everyone. Thank you.


Hey friends today We are hanging out in the Magic Kingdom and we are gonna be having a scavenger hunt with 30 people I am so excited the Roosevelt's team are down here for Megacon And we wanted to put together a little team building exercise Because half of them have never been to Disney and this is the best way to see a lot of the areas that you would not Normally see so we're gonna ride some rides eat some food and have a cozy Magic Kingdom kind of day Anyhoo's let's go do this Here it is the great Roosevelt's Magic Kingdom scavenger hunt 2024 this is basically a scavenger hunt based off of points that there are teams of five and Whatever team gets the most amount of points combined wins and it's cool because they're gonna get a $250 gift card per team per person So each person gets $250 and here are some of the cool like things This scavenger hunt is actually really fun because I mean the way that we're doing is you have teams of five And it's gonna be a lot of photos You're gonna have to go around and find these cool places solve riddles and take photos So if you have to go find and get a picture with the orange bird Like if it's a group of five at least four people have to be in the picture So that way they're all together and it's a team effort and you're not breaking off into side missions And you have three hours and each task is worth a point from like one point to five Being very difficult and whatever team has the most amount of points at the end of the day Each member is gonna win a $250 gift card like I think that it just makes it like so much fun The teams are broken up by color and this is team oranges bags every team has a bag inside it comes with checks mix What is going on look at this pretzels they got chargers is this literally a charger. What is that? Yo, I want to be on a team on my team. All right. I'm joy. Yeah orange team Because me Steve Andrew and DTH put this together We're not gonna be able to partake in any of the teams and we're not gonna help them Maybe a little teasers and maybe I'll throw them off like the path on some things just to make it interesting But we're just gonna be basically judging it and making sure they actually do all of the tasks that they need to do But yeah, you're gonna see it from our point of view and I'm excited because this is like this is so much fun Especially a magic kingdom We are all broken up into teams Fractions have been made friendships have been broken. It's all on the line now New friendships new allies Now that we have our teams and those goody bags, which are awesome like I said checks mix in their chargers sunblock Everything's there. We're gonna head to the magic kingdom Steve is gonna go over the rules a little bit Steve is one of the co-founders of Roosevelt's and like I said, man, he is such a great guy this whole entire company I really just feel lucky to even be here with them and Honestly, they've become such great friends like family to me So it's great to be able to hang out in the park with so many of them for the first time Like it's like these are the things I love Okay, so thank you for coming once again Together to kind of like get everybody connected meeting people learn about Disney makes memories It's gonna be a really great time You're all in groups of five people when you find an item on this list You have to take a group photo. So there has to be at least four people in the photo That means, you know, somebody wants to peel off and like Rest for a second use the bathroom get food. That's fine You kind of one person from your team off doing some but you need four people in the photo or the point doesn't count again Prize everybody gets $250 on the team visa gift card I think that's really it. I'm actually gonna be at mega con Orlando this weekend Saturday February 3rd from 11 a.m. To 1 p.m. I'll be there doing a meet-and-greet with the Roosevelt's team. So if you guys are gonna be there come by and say hi I'd love to see you and then also this is gonna be the shirt Exclusively for that day. It's island smile and look at it I don't know if I can make use my fancy camera to move up or down. Let me see.  We got team red team rad team rad What's the team name for team orange Team sunny D Yeah, who we got next team black Team black, what's the name team black the black nights look at this Team purple haze I love it Now that we're all broken up in teams and everyone has their Little instruction or scavenger hunt manual. We're gonna go and hang out now We're ending right over there at the terrace that area right over there if you walk there you'll see signs will meet there 3 p.m. We got three hours Great, okay, get on your way Let's go. Where you going first ready? I don't know. I think we're gonna try to get David a haircut go get a haircut That's five points Yeah Yo, look at they're actually disbursing quick people have plans look they're on the go yo Look at look at they're all they're they're all strategizing Yo, this is actually really cool like certain people went different ways. There's gonna be a unique way that they do it All right, what are we gonna do? Are we gonna go ride tron?  What does it come skipper's Cantina? Ride some rides eat some food enjoy the day have a cozy magic kingdom kind of day in a bun. Oh, yeah I won't survive without a cinema. Let's do it. Casey's corn dog nuggets. Maybe maybe this is gonna be a good day We're gonna try to track down some of the teams just so we can see how they're doing But for the most part we're kind of staying away because I know that they're gonna be asking a lot of questions and some of the Task on there are like personal things like my favorite ride go find Dustin or DTH's name you know what I mean like really cool things and For certain people that have never been to Disney it can be challenging So it makes it actually very exciting and educational because now people are learning so much about the parks And they're gonna be able to pass this along like fun facts in Disney and then afterwards They're gonna be able to go hang out and do whatever they want Can you imagine the first time you came to Disney? You just spent two hours literally like researching the whole park and then you go out and explore It's like you get rid of all that lost and confusion time So I think this is kind of like actually worth it to do Individual chats for every team. Yeah when they submit like a Scavenger list item they put the number that the point and then the item and then they send the photo And at the end we're gonna just tally them up. So we have all the photos coming in all the photos coming in They're streaming. I gotta see one wait. Let me see so for example The blue team Just completed Casey Yo, this is great. Yeah, there you go Wow, they got all five in there. So so they got the points already. This is gonna be good. Yeah, so far It's so so far so good. It's working the paw prints team blue. Did the paw prints team to team blue Did the paw prints? Oh look at that. Can you see it?  I love this restaurant for appetizers We got the secret menu Appetizer which is the cheese bread and then we got a little fried rice with some shrimpy shrimp It's nice. Look at us in here. Just being all cozy. Everyone's running around out there They're you know eating cheese bread. We're just like nice and cozy. They're having a great time though We're having a great time. I know I'm kind of like a nice ginger ale I feel like what cheers cheers to the great Roosevelt scavenger hunt The food here at Skipper canteen is so good the rice. I got this rice. It was so amazing a little spicy though a little spicy rice and now The chickens here Here is my chicken. I actually like this chicken a lot. I Feel like it's advertised. It's just something plain tastes like chicken because it is chicken But it actually has a lot of flavor lunch was amazing now It's time to head out and check on the teams see what they're doing. I mean, I'm really rooting for Katie or Scotty I feel like those two have the upper hand, but Ian though. Ian's a sleeper. I feel like yeah, Ian might know I think early check-in. I would say Team might win. Katie. Ian's a sleeper. Really? Ian's an operator. He's gonna do well. Oh, we'll see Oh, here is a little quick update on some of the photos that they're actually completing Look at that. I love. Oh my god. They got a rocking chair. Yo Shriner got the rocking chair over by Big Thunder Mountain This is actually amazing. I Love all of this We're gonna see if we run into anyone that's doing this scavenger hunt on our way over to Tomorrowland Because we also got Tron lightning lanes, so we're gonna go ride Tron by everyone's trying to complete the scavenger hunt Like we're living it up. Look at us. I like this But it's really awesome because like I said a lot of the people that are coming There's a good amount of never been here, right? Yeah, 18 people 18 people have never been to Disney World And they're getting to see some of the best parts I mean they're gonna have like an off-day where they get to do whatever they want But like this is a great way to actually experience the park and kind of see it for what it is All right, what's the point update? All right, so we're halfway through and we have a points update Team blue is blowing away the competition right now with 71 points. Oh my lord second place is team red with 44 points So they're that far behind team orange is in third place with 43 points black With 40 is in fourth place Navy fifth place with 32 points and purple is very far behind with 23 points. Let's go purple Halfway through it. We'll see how they They still got an hour and a half. They got plenty time. Yeah, this is like the Lions game You never know like purple could fly back and you never know anybody could be the Niners All right, we got to find we got to find some of them now though. Yeah, let's go Yeah, we'll do our own scouting. Let's do a scavenger hunt trying to find them. Hey, how are y'all? I See team blue. Oh Craig is on that team too Wow Team blue doesn't know it, but they're winning and they're probably gonna win team blue's dominating the competition All right, let's not let them know. Let's try to get them. They have to hurry Guys, how you making out? Yeah All right, I'll give out any teasers if there's any help we can try to help you like a hint. Oh John Travolta What's this thing? I'm pretty sure the hobby helps right or no Yeah Yeah in this area You guys don't my favorite ride right has a lot to do with my name All right, see you wow you guys got to get some work done You got this I believe in you There are a bunch of different like tasks on there and like I said some of them are like personal like favorites and like Also like very puzzling and like trickery right a little trickery So, I mean we can give him we can give out hints or we can throw them out their games I would throw them out their game a little bit This is Steve's and DTH's first time riding Tron It's honestly it's such a good ride Oh Luckily, we got the lightning lane. I mean that is a long so if you join the virtual queue Like it doesn't you get to go on the ride, but you have to wait in this long line This is a lot. Holy moly. I Love how this line or this queue is very quick like there's not a long pre-show It's just right to business because they got to keep it moving like this is like the busiest attraction in Magic Kingdom at the moment Guys ready to enter the grid Don't be nervous you guys got row one you got this your shirts look very nice very very tron-y-ish Time to hop on guys What did you guys think about your first time on Tron? I loved it amazing, right? It was really good. It was probably one of the better rides I've been on And now I know in that takeoff takeoff is my favorite part. I honestly I'm starting to think maybe Team Sunny D is onto something because I know Taylor. It's her well. It was her birthday. So happy birthday Taylor But Scotty's there. They got the good name and they got the energy. So maybe they I don't know I don't know who to root for because everybody is like so passionate about them. They're all excited So I kind of wish they all win that would be really cool Oh wait a second Where did you come what is that behind your back there? It's not she in Let's get a group it's true wait wait well obviously I was gonna see if you need any pointers Yeah, if you guys need any pointers they can help I can't Yeah, we're talking about Ryan joining up. Yeah, we gotta we gotta figure out what happens here once we tally up all The original tally puts team blue very ahead. Yes, so like even it with Ryan's help I don't think they're gonna win but if it comes close I think we need to acknowledge it might have to dock some points for outside help This is gonna be a judging decision and does Ryan show up at the end to collect the prize or something like I don't know Who comes it? Where does he come in? Are they gonna try to hide it send him a check? Uh-huh Did they cut a deal like you know, I'll give you I'll give you a couple extra bucks You show me where it's at check back on episode two 2025 the great Roosevelt it's gonna be an Epcot next year Drama Team purple is literally in Cinderella castle at the moment team purple We wrote run How you guys doing Do you guys need any help any tips I give you a hint Pick a hint to one question I can try to give you a hint on something One of the things is take a picture with the Roosevelt in the wild look at that How many points is that one one point one for one for one for Roosevelt in the wild one for Roosevelt Nice look at that. We're actually seeing a completion happen in real time and a baby Yes Honestly Katie, I thought because she's like she likes Disney. I thought she was gonna come true But she actually is just taking it easy there. They're enjoying the park not really like diving in I think they wrote space mountain. Yeah, that's not even on the list Yeah, they took a little break and I kind of respect that I like it Do team red is actually instilling some confidence really I think they just started very slow in the beginning and maybe I don't know if they're gonna come back from it. I'm really excited to tally up these points See how it all played out. It's a little bit busy today. Look at this. Holy moly. Why does this seem so crowded in the hub there? and hot Always at the three o'clock parade. Yeah, oh, we can't meet here. Oh, well, we'll meet in my There's gonna be people that are gonna be late. They'll get out the Johnny get around the three o'clock parade Wait, can we like start docking one minute like every one minute is one point Yo, what a challenge This is team Navy Oh the team black but your team Navy Okay, let's go Navy seals and team did fine. You guys are trying to find DTH Well, you only have nine minutes nine minutes. It's somewhere in the Haunted Mansion It's somewhere in the Haunted Mansion, but if you guys make it there and back In nine minutes with the parade with the parade. How many points is that? It's worth it, but I think someone we have to run didn't take four pictures or one Four people four people. I don't think you'd make it team black the black night Yeah, but how you doing you guys are completed. I thought you guys I thought the leads were supposed to be under the Are you guys? We did awesome? How you guys do did you do pretty good? Yeah? Yeah, any last-minute ones I can give you can probably get some points in if you feel like running. I mean Where's the dragon tomorrow? Picture with the dragon in Tomorrowland. Oh Yeah, that dragon. Yeah Zeke right there Literally you can go get it easy points easy points. You got like six minutes The dragon is right there in the grass Look at their go sit right there easy points Look at the two teams are going now Hey, did you guys get the Tomorrowland dragon? It's right behind you Right there to the right it's in the grass next to the water up there a little bit dragon tomorrow land dragon It's right up there. 50 seconds hurry up 50 seconds up a little bit. Oh, I don't even know it's a it's a it's a it's a You see it.  So you can obviously stay at the park like you're here Beautiful day, so go explore the park if you want or you can kind of do whatever else you want the rest of the Day is open and free so you can go to the hotel you can hang at the park You can kind of do whatever you want what time we gonna be so we have to be at the hotel Yeah, we're gonna do dinner at like 845, but we're gonna meet a little bit before the hotel if you want to watch the fireworks from the hotel It's a great view, so I'm gonna probably get there Six seven o'clock to watch it. You can watch the fireworks here and then head to dinner over there after but dinners at 845 Try to get there a little bit early Not our hotel the Hall and Asian Hotel. It's extremely easy to get there. You walk out here and then the The boat or the monorail goes directly there Yeah, but I would say monorail is your best bait now that the scavenger hunt is over We're making our way over to the Polynesian because we have dinner at Ohana tonight That's where we're gonna announce the winner and also we're gonna hang out with Trader Sam's kind of take it all in This weekend is gonna be so much fun. Megacon is a blast. I hope to see some of you guys there Like I said, I will be there for a Saturday February 3rd from 11 a.m. To 1 p.m. I know I said 2 p.m. To 4 p.m. Before but we had to move it because we have Mosh Isley later on that night, which I will also be there and there's still tickets available if you guys are going It's a Star Wars emo punk party with like so many great people It's a Nick from Bayside Ryan William Ryan K from the yellow card and Adam from story of the year and then you also have some great creators like the Dano channel and The Princess and scoundrel and also the think the maker podcast So that's gonna be a fun after-party So I'll put a link for all the description in the description if you guys want to buy tickets to that And I hope to see any of you either there or at Megacon There's not a better resort to come to after a fun day at Magic Kingdom Right here at the Polynesian resort. We're gonna go probably hang out Maybe grab a drink at Trader Sam's and then we're gonna watch the fireworks in the beach and dinner at Ohana We are taking this very serious. Look at this. We're tallying up all the scores. They're checking the list twice We're verifying all the pictures I'm excited. I Didn't think it was possible, but we ended up on basically Getting everybody into Trader Sam's We've got a nice little section over here just a score, but look at the squad over on this side here. Oh, sorry, Dom Guys, what did you get I'm excited to see Oh, you got the old did you did you anger anyone?  Yo, he is so anxious No, it's not For Trader Sam's it's time to head down to the beach for happily ever after Ready to begin Forget Let the wonder Take hold We're gonna have the world Isn't it nice? It's romantic, buddy Now that we got to watch happily ever after on the beach and how cool was that? Like I think a lot of them like I said they they didn't think it was gonna be as good as the view actually was But I thought it was great And now we're gonna head up to Ohana get something to eat and announce the winner of the scavenger hunt I have to say I was pretty spot-on in the beginning when I was like, oh, yeah They're crushing it like nobody was even close and I'm actually shocked on how much they got done We made it into Ohana. We literally have like almost this whole entire area over here Oh, it's crazy. I never thought it was possible. This is so crazy Today was great. I don't know how we want to do this, but we do have one winner there Worst the first Worst the first Worst the first You did have a tie Oh, sorry. Okay. So team purple, thanks for coming out I hope you guys really enjoyed it I hope you guys had a great time Seems like team purple didn't fun I heard it. I concur with both of them. I heard them say it So tied for next actually with the same amount of points which is wild Navy and red So you're not the worst So ten points separated navy and red from team orange Second third Was team black so the winner of team blue team blue The hustle Yeah, it was bad you guys were asking for hints and I was like, I'm not giving the men's or anything And with that I think we are done here today. What an amazing adventure Congratulations to the blue team. They crushed it like unbelievably and I hope the video came out I seemed like everyone had a great time. I had a great time just watching everyone have fun Oh, Hannah was great and man, it's like I said, it's great to be able to meet such a awesome group of people that I get to call friends Like like honestly, it's the best thing you can ask for in life So I hope you enjoyed the video. I enjoyed making it and hopefully I see some of you at mega con Orlando Saturday 11 to 1 11 a.m. to 1 p.m. So anyways Bye


We might get out in a way if we could for our last panel of the day. Now, you've listened to a bunch of Australians talking about Australia for the past three sessions and we thought it might be an interesting thing to do to ask some non-Australians, some close observers of Australia who are not Australian, to reflect on how Australia is travelling in today's world. So who better to call on than members of our wonderful diplomatic community here in Canberra? Members of our community may I say that we are most grateful to at the ANU and the Coral Bell School. They are wonderful supporters of our work and wonderful interlocutors of our scholars in talking about the world. And even better, who better to think about Australia and tell us about how Australia is travelling in today's world than Australia's three closest neighbours. And so I have three excellencies here on stage with me to my immediate right is High Commissioner Chris Seed who is the New Zealander High Commissioner to Australia. To his right is His Excellency Ambassador Najib Ripat Kossima who is Indonesia's Ambassador to Australia. And to his right is His Excellency High Commissioner Charles Lepani who is Papua New Guinea's High Commissioner to Australia. Now, I've been looking forward to this session all day. In the spirit of Nick Farrelly, please do keep on tweeting away and letting people know what you think of their Excellencies judgments on Australia. Now, Excellencies, I'm going to ask each of you at the outset to give Australia a traffic light, be it a green light that Australia is doing well and getting better, be it a red light that Australia is not doing well and getting worse in travelling in today's world, or an amber light that generally we're doing okay and we're not getting much better or much worse. Now, I'd like each of you to spend a couple of minutes thinking about that and making a few remarks and then we might open up into a broader discussion. So, who would like to start? That's the Dean. Might have to be the Dean of the talk. Thanks, Chris. Mike and the distinguished participants of this gathering this afternoon. I was approached by Mike just a few days ago to participate in this gathering. Sorry about my voice. I've just risen out of the death of grass-ruff flu. So, forgive me if you can't hear me properly. Papua New Guinea and Pacific region and our relations with Australia. PNG first, we form a colony of Australia, as you know, one of the only two probably. I don't know what you can call Nauru, but Papua New Guinea was a colony, the first colony that you have attempted to colonize. Generally, I can say you did a pretty good job as colonialists in the times that you were there as Australian colonialist administrators. Things have changed, of course. I was just at high school in Charter's Towers. A class of 66 graduated in high school a long time ago, but we had a reunion and I was asked to reminisce and reflect. I said, well, first, most important highlight of my attendance school in Charter's Towers was, even some of you may not know where this place is, the Australians. But I arrived on this poker friendship flight turboprop in those days from Port Moresby to Townsville and I was scared to get out. I was the last passenger and the stewardess came and said, you have to get out here. This is where the flight terminates.  Can't expect white people. I see white people carrying baggage, which we don't see in Papua New Guinea in those days. Manual work is for us natives. So this is Australia. You can get out and even when I was putting my steps in trepidation, feet on the steps to get out, I was wondering when the police are going to appear and arrest me for making white people work for me carrying my baggage. So that was a transformation. This was the mentality of most of us Papua New Guineans growing up in your colonial administrating days. Not all that bad, of course. Australia's colonial policy had a lot of good things about it and much of it resonates today and that is to protect our land. Only 2% of Papua New Guinea land was taken over by crown for crown purposes, crown news. So the rest of the land remains today for Papua New Guineans and that is the saving grace of our process of development, Mr. Ownland. People say, most of you development peddlers say Papua New Guinea is poor. Out of poverty, insecurity. The regional arc of insecurity is one of your famous colleagues has pronounced a decade or so ago. This instability would come to Papua New Guinea and the rest of malnition group which is the arc of instability. But there were sort of times when this approached that level but has never emerged as such that there was mass killings, mass murders, mass political instability in the country that a lot of other developing countries have gone through after independence. PNG is lucky because we have a neighbor like Australia. We achieved our independence at a time when you had period of instability in your political constitutional history. The phrase that was taken over from Gough Whitlam. But at that time, and that is one of the critical issues I want to talk about, how aid contributes to a lot of angst between our two countries, your development assistance. Even at independence, on our part, I was the head of the planning office who manages your aid and puts it into our priority development policy areas that still remain till today. Health, education, law and justice and infrastructure. They are the main ones. Of course, administration and corruption is alleviation of those issues at the part and parcel of it. But your aid, Gough Whitlam couldn't convince Treasury's stone, as he was known, to relent to continue to give us aid. His message was if we keep giving Papua New Guinea aid, even this next budget, Australia would go bankrupt, basically. That's his message. So we had dispatched our people. Ross Garneau was one of them. He was the first seasoned secretary in our Treasury. They came down with our Minister for Foreign Affairs and to discuss with Fraser, Whitlam's people, Treasury people. They said no. And the phrase was coined, we are trees, not stones, to reflect how tough your stone treasurer was behaving. But when Fraser came in, he not only extended the period of aid to three-year period cycle, but increased the amount. So as a planner, plan forward of a cycle of three years, we need to have that breathing space because your aid was contributing 60% of our budget in those days. Now it's only 5% of revenues. Now it's only 5%. But be that as in May, Fraser came and gave us this gift. When I awarded him the logo at the mission here in Canberra, I reminded Malcolm Fraser with gratitude of those days. His first words was adjust a lesson here over a lunch with everybody else I invited, including Julie Bishop. First lesson is never listen to Treasury advice. And at the time when Abbott Government came in, they were also having difficulty with Treasury. So I said in a speech I gave to Deakin University, there must be some genetic thing about liberal national coalition and Treasury relations. But given all that, we have done very well by Australia with your aid. A key cornerstone under the development cooperation treaty we signed that underpins our relationship, formally signed in 1989. And it continues till a few years ago. It still is there, but there is an economic cooperation treaty now that's supposed to indicate a reduction in your aid to Papua New Guinea but increased the flow of our trade and investment to recognize and acknowledge the maturity of our relationship rather than a dependency relationship over the years since independence. That treaty has been signed but it's like a framework arrangement. Nothing of substance have come of it for the last three years, well, two years now since Abbott and O'Neill signed, but the treaty was prepared and finalized about three years ago. So we are working to put in the meat over the bone, so to speak, as to what that all means in our relationship going forward. PASA Plus, we're told by Australian friends that you have to sign. Papua New Guinea, you have to sign, you and Fiji have to sign PASA Plus which governs our regional trade relations with Australia and New Zealand before we can move to a bilateral arrangement with access to markets in Australia for Papua New Guinea. Unfortunately, we find that a very difficult thing to swallow because why should we sign a regional arrangement that has nothing, essentially nothing for Papua New Guinea and Fiji, countries and yet you hold us to that before we can talk Turkey with you on trade and investment. I have been proposing an arrangement with Indonesia, Papua New Guinea and Australia, a trilateral economic cooperation group for the last five years, that that should be the basis of our maturing relations, not asylum-seeker boat people. That is a transient issue. I know it's close to the hearts of many of you in Australia and in Papua New Guinea, but it's a transient issue that our Supreme Court has ruled and we're moving forward to Manus is now closed, asylum-seekers are roaming free in Manus and there will now be, there's a roadmap of how to proceed which has been approved by the Supreme Court. Now we are moving in that direction but we have a group of about four or five hundred asylum-seekers sitting in Manus. Where do they go? We can't just force them out. Those who are found to be non-serious, genuine asylum-seekers, refugees are to be deported from our countries. We're talking to our friends in diplomatic missions whose citizens are there to give them the documents to return home. But we cannot just force out the refugees that are there. That's the sticking point. Australia doesn't want to take them. The refugee commissioner he has stated that it is a difficult proposition that a refugee commission is confronted with but they will help us verify the refugee status but that's the extent of the assistance they will give us. So we are stuck with refugees in Manus. Be patient. We're working on solutions to relocate them and resettle them. But coming back to going how we should proceed and how Australia is performing, you, in terms of Papua New Guinea, as I said, there are certain things and events that have railroaded or pretty well sometimes put our relations at risk. I mentioned one, the Australian assistance and various reincarnations, development, direct budget support at independence, now it's program support and let me just make sure you understand that all your checks are signed here in Canberra. You remember the elections in 2013, income in Abbott government and politicians stood up and said Kevin Rudd was giving blank checks to Peter O'Neill. There's no such thing. And of course, people have confronted Julie Bishop on that. She admits she was just getting stuck at Kevin Rudd, not the Papua New Guinea. Peter O'Neill. Samarez shoes, issue at Brisbane airport, multi-affair, Bougainville, still an issue. PNG's election of 2012 where Bob casts threatened sanctions and of course asylum seekers, Supreme Court decision and Papua New Guinea's continuous advocacy or request to Australia to allow us to enter Australia on visa and arrival terms. We let your people come to Papua New Guinea, arrive at our airports, we stamp the passports to walk into our country, but you can't let us do that. And that's a sticky issue for us going forward. At official levels, we have institutions that deal with our bilateral relations, the annual ministerial forum, leaders meet regularly whenever they can and meant for ministerial forums and senior officials meeting. At people-to-people level, Kokoda Track Foundation does a great job. Kokoda Track is an iconic area in Papua New Guinea, reminiscent of Second World War. If you ask former Prime Minister, Labour Prime Minister after Bob Hawke, sorry, my apology, kidding, he will say Kokoda Track is more important than the Gallipoli, sorry, I was sick recently. But anyway, it's very important, iconic place for both our relations and Australia PNG Business Council and all UNGOs doing a great job in supporting Papua New Guinea's development. But as I said going forward, we should work towards trilateral arrangement with Australia PNG and Indonesia. PASA Plus we need to deal with why you can't let Papua New Guinea and Fiji bilaterally trade and the investment flows rather than wait till PASA Plus is signed. Climate change, why is Australia so obstinate about climate change issues? I want an answer from some of you today. If not from your government. Ramsey, Mike asked me to comment. Ramsey is winding down. Next year, June, they will close the operations. But as a region, we are very grateful to Australia for its support. It's a regional effort, but Australian New Zealand's grateful, we're very grateful for support in Ramsey, in Salomon's, also in Bougainville, on behalf of my government. We thank Australia and New Zealand and appreciate greatly for your efforts. Now let me close by saying how you're travelling. By bike, you're good bikers. You've won two of the France ones. Swimming, you're kind of getting there in the Olympics. By boat, I don't know. I can't live that. To and from Australia, I don't know by boat. We still have visa and arrival issues. Thank you. Thank you, Michael. Professors, ladies and gentlemen, I'm so delighted to be able to be here with you all today to talk about, well, I can say it's also about Indonesia, Australia's relations. Because if you look at Australia, where, how is Australia travelling into this world? Of course, Australia should be travelling together with their neighbours. And as one of the closest neighbours, Indonesia is one of the closest friends also of Australia. But the relations between our two countries is very unique. Indonesia and Australia is very close to each other. We are not more than 200 nautical miles away. But we are very different to each other, both historically and also culturally. We are so different. So that's why sometimes it's difficult, if you have a totally different background to discuss things, sometimes misunderstanding is always there. So that's why I think the only things to make the relations good between the two very close neighbours and very two different families is by dialogue, by talking to each other. Ladies and gentlemen, what kind of things are driving the Indonesia and Australian relations? If you look at from time to time, sometimes the people will very easily answer that the relations between the two countries is driven by the situational condition, by the tactical level or practical level situation. Because if you look at from time to time, from the independence of Indonesia up to now, so it's always up and down. You look at the confrontation. The confrontation is one of the worst relations between the two countries maybe in the early 1960s where Sukarno at that time said, well, he mentioned that no capitalism, no colonialism, he mentioned about everything is known about Western civilization at that time. And then the confrontation happens.  We have East Timor between 1995 to 2000 maybe. And then we have also the three bees, like both. And then we have the Bali bombings and everything. And then we have beef. That is cattle, live cattle exports. So the three bees is always trying to bring the direction of the relations to a kind of area that disputed between us. Ladies and gentlemen, we have, I think, the most important thing between Indonesia and Australia is that we make a good, not only a tactical, not only practical, not only transactional relations, but we have to make in a very good frame a policy planning that we have to face together for the future of this region. Now we have started with what's called SIPA, the Comprehensive Economic Partnership Agreement, which I think is one of the most important economic negotiations between Indonesia with other countries, except ASEAN. Of course, ASEAN, we have the Asian economic community now. But with other countries, this is the first time that we will have the SIPA. And I know that we are now in the middle of the robust, open, and frank discussion and negotiation on SIPA. We are talking about the service. We are talking about trade. We are talking about investment. We are talking about the financial service. And we are talking also about the movement of Labour, for instance, from Australia to Indonesia. We try to have a very good relationship in this, not only as I said, as short-term and transactional activities, but also for the long-term. We have what's called the Lombok Treaty, the Treaty between Indonesia and Australia to discuss about the strategic things, about that we are going to the right direction. We are shoulder-to-shoulder in facing so many challenges, strategic challenges between the two countries. Our Defence Forces, for instance, they are very close to each other. The ADF and the TNI is very close to each other. They send officers. They have from tabletop exercises to the field exercise. They try to know each other. Even though maybe the level of advancement, maybe Indonesia is a little bit left behind, but we are trying to understand each other. How do we face the challenges? How do we face the threat from outside? Now, we also have now what's called the Council of Ministers for Law and Security. I think this is also very important. We are talking openly about terrorism. We are talking openly about counterterrorism. We are talking openly about the threat from extremism. We are also talking about so many things that could hamper the good relations between the two countries. That is what we are trying to do for the future. And for the challenges. I think a lot of challenges that we face together, one of the most important challenges for Indonesia and also, I think, for Australia is the pressure of demographic pressure. Indonesia now is about 250 million people. The population of Indonesia is very big. It's about 11 times of Australians. And in 15 years' time, we will be 287 million people if you see the statistic, the growing of the population growth. So the pressure will be very, very big because the resources is only that, only what we have right now. Then if you look at the land area of Indonesia, we have 17,000 islands, so many islands across Indonesia. But if you look at the land, it's only one-third of the big of the Nusantara, the Indonesian archipelagic nations. So the sources is only. So that's why President Jokowi is trying to push the what's called the maritime policy for the future of Indonesia. This is very important for Indonesia to see the future with the maritime issues. So that's why we have now trying to build the infrastructure, maritime infrastructure. We try to build new ports and to refurbish the old ports and so on. And we try to accommodate New Zealand, Papua New Genie and Australian needs to export their goods to Asia, through Indonesia. We built now at least two ports in the eastern part of Indonesia like Sorong in Papua and Makassar in Sulawesi. So there will be two international big ports in this area to accommodate the eastern ports, the eastern coastal ports of Australia, New Zealand, and also Papua New Genie. And so you will have a distribution port over there and it will be open to the 600 million population of ASEAN and 250 million population of Indonesia. That is one challenge of demography. And then the second challenge is the fast changing region. The region is changing very fastly now. If you look at the in 2030, Australia and Indonesia will be a region that is much bigger than it is now. Bigger economically because as predicted by experts that in 15 years time the household, every household of Australia which is now have about 50,000 of today will be fourfold for time become 200,000 in 2030. This will be very big economy of Australia. And the economy of Indonesia also will be bigger than of today but that's of course we should also get a new sources for the... And then for the students, we have now students in Australia about 20,000 students of Indonesian students in Australia and in 2030 there will be more because Indonesian government now give also some scholarships to the students to study here. And then how about the holiday makers? Right now we have 1.15 million holiday makers from Australia into Indonesia and I hope that there will be more Australian coming to Indonesia every year. And even if you look at the last two months, the last two months we are the tourists from Australia going to Indonesia is bigger than the tourists going to New Zealand for instance. So we are now the biggest destinations of Australian tourists going. And my turn point is the ASEAN and the Pacific Islands that Charles has mentioned. The ASEAN will be the fourth largest economy in 2045-2050. And then they need also, you know, innovations. They need also the resources of innovation. That is I think Australia can supply that for ASEAN. And I think that's the situation as a whole and I hope that within 15-20 years in the future Australia and Indonesia will have new dynamics because we will be a very big economy. As Charles said, it's very good if we have a triangular economic cooperation, maybe also with New Zealand. That will give us more freedom of collaboration for the future. And for the last things that I would like to mention about the travelling of today, maybe some misunderstanding should be discussed properly between the two countries. Some misunderstanding, sometimes unilateral actions taken by one country to another is not very good. But we have to be very, very careful on that and then we have to discuss with our neighbours because our neighbours is always there, you know, and then we can contact them anytime. And I'm very happy that now we have so many good relations from the top relations between the President and Prime Minister, for instance, and then among ministers, senior officials and also diplomats from universities. Ladies and gentlemen, I hope that the directions of Australia in Asia and Pacific will be better in the future. We are partners. We are part of the future of these regions and we have to work together very, very closely. Thank you. Thanks, Michael. Am I hooked up? I am hooked up. Well, thanks for the invitation and thanks to WESPEC for hosting this. It's been a great day and there's nothing like getting a bunch of Australians surveying the state of the nation. For a number of reasons. One, it's a reminder that no matter how tough you guys are with New Zealand, it's nothing compared to how tough you are on each other as you're sort of unpicking the challenges that face Australia. But often the role of New Zealanders and things is to sort of actually, you know, we have to be optimists in our country. And we think that Australia's actually got lots of reasons why it should be optimistic as well. And I'm not sure that the optimism piece really sort of washed through the day so much. So I just thought I'd sort of perhaps run through a couple of the points that we, where we think Australia's travelling pretty well in the world. Indeed, why you've probably got the sort of problems your government, your polity is sort of dealing with problems actually which a lot of countries wouldn't mind. They wish they were on there to do list rather than some of the things that they are sort of struggling with. And so it was really just a sort of chance to talk to that and then I had sort of two or three issues where I thought that just sort of running it at a ruler against the sorts of things that are driving an agenda in New Zealand that even if you accept some of the debate here about political gridlock could still be areas of focus for a government. Not that New Zealanders are actually in the business of sort of providing advice to the Australian government. That's one of the things they teach you on day one when you join the New Zealand Foreign Ministry. We're not in the business of providing advice particularly to Australia. It's a good way to shorten your diplomatic career. So I mean if you sort of think about it in broad terms I mean a lot of the arguments about why Australia is doing well in the world. I mean the great sort of shift from west to east of sort of geopolitical power and economic weight. I mean Australia is sort of immediately adjacent to that deeply integrated in the region. Maybe it needs to be more integrated. I mean arguments about that but nevertheless it's in a sort of a specially privileged position. It's one of the safest and most secure countries on the planet. Australia is strategically anxious. It's being described as a strategically anxious country. But the fact is you know it's a bloody big continent. No one's coming to get you. You've got enormous, you have both depth and breadth of sort of all sorts of capabilities. One of the most coherent sort of states in the world. Despite what the commentary might say you remain extremely well governed. You have enormously impressive institutions. You can talk about your banking system is extremely strong. It's such a driver for a lot of why Australia has such a future and why it's able to navigate the ups and downs of the world. One of the great outcomes. Well New Zealand is very conscious of this. One of the reasons we got through the big hit of the Christchurch earthquake.  Our major insurance company went broke and in fact if anyone is interested in buying one I could go on to hop off. But what stood behind it actually was Australian financial institutions, the Australian Prudential System speaks to the sort of power of our single economic market but it also speaks to the strength of the Australian institutions. If you want another example about Australia's brand in the world it remains extremely strong. I mean there's never been a lot of credit in my view given to the way in which Australia was voted on to the UN Security Council and the role that it played there. What was extraordinary for New Zealanders was that you have to remember that Australia entered the race late. In fact they jumped in ahead of us so we were very conscious of that. They entered the race late. You change Prime Ministers three times. You change Foreign Ministers three times. The opposition tried to nicture all the way through and you got up on the first vote with 145. I mean that sort of speaks powerfully to the way in which not only Australia's brand in the world but their sort of capabilities and competence, not only of your foreign service but all the other elements that contributed to it. I mean there's obviously the piece about resources but it also in a world which is sort of short of protein Australia actually produces a lot of that as well so another reason why diversification in both in terms of markets and economic benefit is that you know, you know, wood and should flow to Australia. There's a reason Fonterra, you know New Zealand's largest sort of economic entity, owns 20% of your milk supply. We actually think you're quite good at it. We want to be part of that and we think that Australia will do well in that space in the world. You have a remarkable consensus here on foreign insecurity policy and you know, there's some of the sort of fundamentals you know, the frameworks for defence spend, for defence capability, ambition for your sort of international relationships is extremely strong and enduring and it's a great benefit. So anyway, those are just a few things that strike me as you sort of listen to Australians sort of talk about what might not quite be right but actually much of what you do and the way Australia acts in the world is of course for good and the world actually needs more Australia. In terms of sort of just as thinking of it as a New Zealander and the sorts of things that our country you know, has to navigate, we're very much at the sort of, you know, once described as at the, I think, at the end of the world. You know, a dagger pointed at the heart of Antarctica. I mean, if anyone's got to sort of think about how you organise yourself in the globe and it's New Zealand you certainly don't, we don't bring economic weight or hard power to issues and we have to navigate a, you know, a smaller, obviously a smaller population, smaller school set, thin country, you know, 3 million taxpayers, so you know, you think quite a lot about resource prioritisation and where you put effort and so when the sorts of things that even if you accept some of the challenges that Australia faces currently, there are a whole range of areas where, using a New Zealand example, you would think are ripe for continued sort of investment because essentially they go to matters of public policy rather than, you know, political, rather than legislative change or parliamentary management. I mean, one of them is around the budget, I mean, I sense that in the modern world, governments own about 25% of the economy understanding how that works where, what outcomes it's meant to deliver how you manage that budget there's enormous sort of power that rests in the government, that it doesn't require, where it doesn't require legislative authority, so there's enormous benefits to be secured by tackling issues, a whole range of issues there which don't require the approval of the parliament. The whole, the settings around how we're integrated in the region as much as for you so for New Zealand, you know, we're never going to get wealthy really selling to ourselves so thinking about how we integrate with all that sort of economic capability, all that economic upswing that's happening in our region, these are the sort of issues which require continued attention and require sort of new ways of thinking why have in Australia and New Zealand, for example sort of, what's the next thing after the ASEAN sort of CER agreement it's one of the reasons why New Zealand has always been a proponent of TPP and in fact it's why we would be one of the great beneficiaries out of TPP it's why we, along with you make the argument in Washington that it's the economic it's the other side of the pivot, the pretty pivot argument in Washington what's the counterfactual that the world that our region will be better if TPP is not signed so making those sorts of arguments on migration that's something where it seems to me there's a lot of scope for the government and here getting a more coherent narrative I guess and I think you're seeing a lot of publications now about the great change in the mix of Australia's sort of migration intake and particularly that idea about how you the increasing number of people who are coming on one sort of visa education 457 visa, temporary skill visa and then there how the country sort of manages that shift into actually people they put down routes they want to stay they want to commit to this country so how the government here is going to manage that climate change has been mentioned by others it's a great challenge certainly for my country as well as yours because of the sort of special peculiarities of our profile in New Zealand's case we already have something like 80-85% of our electricity is generated by renewables and then we have this massive other piece which is from animal emissions which sort of creates a big challenge for us in trying to lower emissions levels so anyway just those are a few observations but clearly it is navigable and the reason I say this is you can always incentivise Australians by getting them to set New Zealand can set itself up if we can do certain things surely you must put all of things just off the top of our head so what we have tried to do we have had four prime ministers in 26 years you should try it it has a lot to recommend it but not only that we have had four finance ministers in the same period and four foreign ministers so it leads to a lot of policy continuity and no one could say anything other than that our politics the architecture that we have designed requires people being able to reach across the aisle if you like the political aisle but the challenges that we face in doing that are no more than the challenges that will be in our face in the parliament here it is possible you think about the sort of the recovery issues that have been driven off Christchurch or second largest city taken out of operation that sort of big hit on GDP sort of reorganising the economy to service that you think about Australia's had 25 years I think it was the figure of economic growth we have had three recessions through that period so you are the challenges that we have had to sort of navigate that New Zealand as an example are not it can be done and out of the other side of it there is a surplus this year and in out years unemployment is currently at 5.1% workforce participation rate I saw the other day we are now fourth in the OECD for that but it is also true that what is going on here is definitely navigable and definitely manageable that is why 640,000 of us live here 12% of the population so that is a great thing to finish I guess to say there is nothing like having 12% of population to live in another country to know that there is a lot of things here that are going very well Thank you, Excellencies now ladies and gentlemen we have got a few minutes left if anyone had any questions for their Excellencies ask them a curly question get them to test out their diplomatic skills Brendan Thanks Michael good to see you again I'm sure Michael is particularly grateful that you didn't say anything about the state of Australian Robbie at present it was much appreciated my question is about your observation that Australia is a strategically anxious country I think you are right about that one of my favourite characterisations of the relationship is one by I think it was Alan Gingel who talked about Australia and New Zealand as being two countries that share the same bed but if you look at some of the statements that have been coming out of Wellington over the last 12 months about the South China Sea and also the gradual but I think quite significant warming in the New Zealand-U.S. relationship that was seen over recent years I'm wondering whether you see a gradual convergence in the New Zealand and Australian strategic outlooks and if so, if you accept that proposition of that and what are the potential limits over time to that convergence I'm not sure convergence is that the right word I think that New Zealand would run in line that we share a common strategic space with Australia that of course we have it's a formal alliance relationship it was even in the dark days of our dispute with the Americans that we discussed said that New Zealand's interests in Australia didn't end at the Blue Mountains and so we've often we work together in the world because in a sense our interests are so intertwined even if our often our approach or sometimes our approach to tackling issues or to resolving issues in third countries in other areas might be quite, you know, might be different so I think too that the way in which our two countries have thought about our big relationships with China or with the US both our cases have evolved over time and they've evolved to take account of what is changing in the world and you use the example of our relationship with the United States and one of the it was always sort of clear that in looking to improve that we also had to be sure and to take account of the effect that it had to improve in a way that Australia was comfortable with and Australia saw benefit from and I think the way in which over a long period of time New Zealand's worked deliberately at that it was born fruit with which are essentially the foundations now of the current relationship and was evident as recently as two or three weeks ago when Vice President Biden was in Auckland and announced essentially that a US and a Navy ship would go to New Zealand for the 75th anniversary of our Navy and I think again both of us have taken different roads to thinking and thinking our way through China and how we engage with China the sort of relationship that we want but New Zealand is sort of very alert to international the narrative of our partners on China we make our own decisions and we promote and prosecute our views in our own way but I don't think that there's any doubt that we in Australia have a very sort of similar view of the region and the bits of the international sort of framework which need to be applied to making that region work well be safe and be secure Do we have a last question for the ambassadors? Yeah So I'll end with asking the question I think that has become very popular probably to ask without being too flimpy what is the contingency plan of each one of your countries if Donald Trump is elected president? A contingency plan? What are you going to do if Donald Trump is elected president? I don't know if that's the right word but that's sort of well I've been following you'll be hosting him an APIC Yeah two years time I've been following that very carefully CNN for my own personal education rather than representing my countries it's difficult to say really for us who think you think from your own political perspective be different from when you put in a context of what's happening in the world and the trends of politics including Australia and Britain's Brexit and you had a few days ago Farage talking Trump's campaign personally let me tell you this I don't like Trump I don't know what my country's response would be my deputy who's a Highlander loves Trump they all like people so he said oh he's going to win so in Papua New Guinea you would have probably in the Highlands they love it at my Trump for us coastal peaceful we have a different view I'll leave it at that thank you well I think what Trump the voice of Trump's of today is the campaign of Trump to be the president of the United States he used that everything every effort for the benefit of his presidency but I think he will change this is my personal opinion and also I read some articles in Indonesian newspapers that the pessimist is no longer that pessimistic so it's a growing number also the people in Indonesia to see maybe not the positive side but the more optimist side because it's not possible for United States to bring up this voice this kind of well we can say motto which is you know which is too different to the very basic principles and philosophy of the United States and I think he will change when he become president thank you well I guess it'll be tricky it'll be tricky but part of navigating it I guess that's why people are investing time and thinking about whether you're going to be an international economist or involved in international economics or a diplomat or an investor in the defence and security commentary it certainly won't be short of business so I think that it will forces you to think about historical sense there's been these sorts of shocks before and Brendan talked about saying bed different nightmare which is another way of describing always for New Zealand the great nightmare for us is economic development which we've lived through in my professional career when you think about Britain joining the EU and some of the sort of shocks that flow from that when you think about the GFC and so the things which allow you to navigate it are the way in which you organised as a country the coherence of your sort of political narrative and the strength of your institutions the way in which you navigate it the sorts of relationships that you have the architecture which supports them the narrative which runs alongside it and the sort of personal connectivity which keeps it contemporary and you then sort of think about the way in which you use those sort of state those state resources to manage a change of that magnitude at the end of the day the US will still be the biggest economy in the world the US will still have at its heart will have so much of the energy and the drive which will be fundamental to us so part of our job will be to understand that and to manage against it it's why for example in our case when we think about our indispensable relationship with Australia how we manage we manage that in terms of the ecosystem of connectivity from political leaders to business to you know sport, media, name any part of it how all that sort of fits together we think about the way in which you make sure that it's actually focusing or dealing with with contemporary issues and you think about the sort of narrative which supports it including the work that High Commission does or government does in revaluing all the time that relationship and making the proposition about why we matter and so I think all of us will you know be doing the same thing with the US if a Trump presidency turns up Thank you all Can you all join me in thanking their Excellencies


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