Hello, yo, yo, yo, yo On three out of five is not bad. Yeah, so there's a good percentage. Hi Hello, everybody. This is e-fap number It's all about whatever the title says because I don't even know what I would have named it Oh, man, we're here today This is if you're listening to this it means that we were Unavailable to do a normal time e-fap, but this would be premiering at the time of a normal time e-fap. So you got that Hi, hi, hi We we we we we're just gonna we're just gonna check out some videos as as usual You're familiar with all five of the faces you can see right now So I'm I've got a different avatar on for and meme has not moved on from his His doctor strange one I guess Yeah, I kind of want to get a colored version of this one.   No stop No Yeah, I can't pause it because it's an ad I don't want to watch llama drama Yeah, we're we're there's a video I've been made aware of and I was like, ooh It's a video essay you guys. I don't know if you've ever seen one of them They're like oh my formal sort of digressions into Specific topics that overall make a point and the point of this one is nah No way home wasn't that great Now what's funny about that does I agree? Like it wasn't that great.  Yeah, that's fine. It's fine. No, it's fine. Um, yeah And so I see this video and I'm told like oh, it'll be a good one for eFap And I'm just sitting here like I mean to agree with it And and and then I gave it a little little look see and I was like, oh So You know What a what a way to introduce the idea of seeing this thing whatever it may be It's gonna be one of those deals where it's like so much to criticize But it's gonna be all the wrong things or something. I don't know what you're talking about Yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Here we go gonna be great before I'll boot her up and Well, you know to be honest with you There's there's nothing else for us to do then jump into this thing I think as long as that's okay with everyone else. Did anyone want to establish anything before we go right ahead That's what I thought I like Ocarina of time. Oh, that's all I got I just It's thrown out there All right. Well, um, I guess I guess I'll just play the video and perhaps almonds will be activated. I don't know Yeah, like I said now no way home wasn't that great? Have a look see Oh so loud Why a lot of it editing choices in this I could be interested to skip this one already.  There's nothing wrong with it. She said you like spider-man is from yeah, my ears out Well, maybe that's your phone and I'm too loud. How about that? Yeah, I can't do it lower.  I already did but it was already loud when it happened So now it doesn't count anymore.   Anyway, they did a couple of months. They did indeed I would have yeah, I would have gone as far as saying at this point in the movies divisive Divisive Yeah, our stance in the quickest way possible is the plot garbage the characters are pretty good except Doc Strange That's it. That's that's how I take it Worth with myself about making this video.  So I have chosen death. I Like it as a meme. So I have chosen death Yeah, I guess it should just be I right So, I guess I have chosen. Oh, that's probably intangible. Yeah. Okay. Yeah Was that people did not just Know I have swings past one building a 1.74 billion. Okay Ray's wanted to read it but also referred to it as some sort of a Be so well, no, that was that's that's like some people who make their video essays six minutes after the film comes out And it's the next masterpiece amazing brilliant Incredible thing and then the next month they forget about it and say it's I was gonna say like the once they've had an hour after six minutes masterpiece hour They're like it was good and then a day and they're like actually why it's terrible It's like the half-life I don't know 20 minutes tops Really Really big movie came out quick quick. We got to push out our video essay quick quick quick There's a part of me that thinks of it's it is just as simple as um That initial hype kind of just creates this reaction That's super duper positive and then it is just more of the wait a minute. Hmm just starts to seep in It just seems like you should have crashed Yeah a little bit like you you see it and it's really novel and exciting and then you give it like time and then it deteriorates um When you know, generally the sign with a good movie is it's like a wine, you know, it's it ages It's like beautiful. It just starts to you start to appreciate more about it Yeah, um, I think you're right the the matter of Wanting to be a part of a community that's so happy to see a thing and enjoy a thing that just seeps into how good was the thing And sometimes it's just absolute shit. I think end games. We're gonna be the all-time example for that Definitely And it's easy to do that since I feel like the term masterpiece today is being thrown around by people left and right I don't disagree Yeah, yeah, true. I think that's the whole response. It's either amazing or terrible Everything everywhere all at once might be a masterpiece though. Wow Yeah You think when you think these camera people who are recording opro when she's handing out cars They're like, oh, I'm in here too, right? Yeah, you just drop the camera and jump into the audience like, oh my god. Look at me I got a car too What if the entire crew the entire crew got really really happy though? Yeah, I can't believe it Oh my god, and then she didn't plan on getting the like the crew anything. Yeah, there's like a little queue Watching them celebrate and be really happy and they're just oh, yeah, I can't believe it And then she has to tell them oh Oh, it's like a classic sitcom or she would just be like she sees them waiting for when she's like, oh Yeah, that's There's a legal thing where I you know, I can't Oh, it was we both there's like a package deal and it doesn't it's only as many as was in the audience You know you you get paid for this job. That's similar You'll be fine And your honor today, I will be going against what's seen he looked like that the six flags guy who jahoo's in the bus the old guy I don't know those commercials No, I don't think I've seen that commercial ever Maybe it's just it's fine. It's an old america. Um Also, what's funny, by the way is with her premise we already have done this. Um, we didn't Atmosphericly, it wasn't that on the stream for no way home, but if If you take it literally like the the film being considered a build a masterpiece and we are um You know, I'm gonna go against the grain on that. It's like, oh, yeah, we gave it a fight. We said it was literally mid Yeah, I guess we've already been controversial on that one and we're with her on this sweet Seems like the rest of humanity by saying an enjoyable movie with a few masterful moments Is not synonymous with a masterful film agreed Yeah, I even agree with the fact that she's using this film as an example of something that's like it's got a few I guess you could call a masterful moments. I do think I could appreciate some pieces of it that way And unfortunately for me I will be using no way home as a centerpiece for this opinion Before I begin I want to preface this video by saying that my reaction to no way home is something that reminds me closely of end game Because when I saw end game in 2019, I of course enjoyed the movie But at the same time going out of the film I felt like it was kind of not so great, especially compared to its predecessor when everyone seemed to think that it was the Greatest movie ever made. That's a very brave thing to say Feel she's practically ready for eFab already like Yeah, that's wobbling though Yeah, um, I don't know if she's doing that. I know you just learned how to do the wobble and it's yeah, it's weird It's on everything like so I don't know if it's her preference of style I uh, but I find it annoying. Uh, but I don't know there's probably people out there who love it. I guess I can feel the presets that she's using because I use them sometimes for animations You've got movies, but uh, I don't use them all the time Generally, I think she might be desperately trying to avoid copyright when it's funny because I almost want to tell people sometimes It's like you don't actually need to do this Like you don't it's like I'll have a five second clip. I'll flip it.  It's like you don't have to do all of those things Yeah I can sure all right number one in every chart in every list Even though I agreed that it was a great send-off for Avengers. I did not think that it was a great film Well, you know, I disagree, but it depends on what she would mean by that Well, because we at this point think it doesn't achieve fucking anything well, but at the time I definitely would have said it was a great ending for iron man at the very least at that time Period, but I was also scared that if I shared that opinion I would probably get stabbed, but the thing about end game to end games pretty shat on these days Nowadays, yeah. Yeah Yeah, I think she's even days that most people probably agreed that it was a fun spectacle And I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. That's the thing. It's like um a reality that uh People just calm down No matter what and I think if you well, there are certain things you can't release hot takes onto this day But a lot of stuff you just have to wait at least a month or so Like multi-verse of madness.  Maybe even Even the hype for it didn't seem to last anywhere near as long as a lot of the other movies It absolutely hasn't people are still talking about the Batman a bunch, which is funny considering multi versus made more money now Translating Because I don't know what you would talk about really Dude, I don't want you Matt Reeves of watching multi-verse of madness and being told like you need to make a movie more like this And that's the exact same feeling I get with no way home The sort of isolation from the rest of the fandom or people who watched it for feeling this way about He looks weird on the left. He looks um The the actor I forget his name, but without hair. He just he looks strange the Jason battle on I think it's jacob jacob battle on. Yeah Um, but talon battle. I don't know if it's pronounced in a particular way, but yeah The movie but I also think that just like within game as the time goes on and the experience aspect of it will die down People will be more prone to listen and agree with the criticism of it Yeah, pretty I think she's right. Yeah but What are those great systems? That's all She's definitely existent with this one, but I'm definitely not going to wait Well, so I guess I want to say at this point kind of like a style Uh, and she seems fun. So it's just like yeah, you're right in those departments. Oftentimes we lose in that department when we cover people Yeah, abuses the wiggle setting a little bit, but that's about definitely There's to say a critical word about the film and I'm going to say it right about now.  Toby maguire Like the gesture of Andrew saving mj however predictable and on the nose it was the ending was I actually agree with that almost every single person predicted that scene was going to happen And it did and everyone loved it Yeah, I guess it's on the nose in that you know what it means, but I don't know that that's a problem Well, I think it's indicative of like an understanding of writing that you would identify that as like a potent narrative. Um Yes Points and and like that everybody was like this makes sense as a character payoff Yeah, I mean it's so easy to slip it into a fight and it's so meaningful do it Like it's such an obvious one. In fact, it's kind of like um You know how a lot of people These are all over end game, but like for example the hulk never got to fight Thanos again He never got to Come through where he failed last time sort of thing and you're like, hmm. Do you want to drag to get to fight them? Yeah drags never did too.   Isn't that exciting? And oh and cut to him laughing cut to black But even though I appreciate it for trying I still can't help noticing the obvious inconsistencies and I had I have hope at this point. She's she's highlighting a scene that I have several problems with and I'm like, all righty This is what was okay.  I know Pretty good track here. Yes, I got some The fine video if not it reaches above a five so far, you know, I'm I'm happy with it So far born into the story and that being said your honor if you may let's cut to the actual video I worry about stuff over this for copyright myself. I'm just like, I don't know what you're using here. I don't know exactly Why can't I wobble the sound away? What is that theme Uh, that's the that's the mc of spiderman thing. No, no, no, it's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I dare you mc wants better. Oh, yeah And I'm just doing this to be safe. I have no idea The music is like three seconds. So, you know, it's like I think this might be a little compilation of all three of at least uh, they are amazing and Remy themes or maybe it's gonna be all three if we keep There we go, we made it maybe it's playing things Um, yeah, and I was gonna say by the way, this isn't a good time for me Where it's like, let's go over the problems the subject one pita parka. It's like, oh, no, that's actually one of the things I think is pretty good. So Yeah, let's do it Remember that one time that peter tried to be a responsible young man I almost ended up killing dozens of innocent people on fairy while trying to take more responsibility Thank you could bear and remember this scene Previously on peter screws the pooch. I tell you stay away for god damn copyright protection I assume the way she's done it means that she's protected, but the problem is that doesn't protect you on streams. Definitely streams get a bit more finicky Like I'm watching a comic I guess we can talk about that that scene that film's point as far as I'm concerned is the uh He's learned That he should act to help people when he has the power to that's like that It's almost like a preset he comes in with that but then homecoming is about how What if you're in a scenario where your help actually makes things worse? Yeah You know, yeah, and uh Part of it is recognizing the difference. That's a really important part of responsibility But uh, I already want to set up that um, then this is something that we've come across many times It's frustrating to me that people think That then that's done then you've learned your lesson about responsibility When and you could forever until you dead, you know, like the rest of your life You are you understand responsibility perfectly responsibility. It's like this Umbrella topic that we are all learning about as we grow up, especially from child to adult Is so many elements that are so complicated In the case of a superhero in a world filled with a whole bunch of different variables Uh, I'm just that his own personal life is changing and that's informing his perspectives on responsibility at any given time Yeah, and the film argues he makes this mistake not only because he's very young But also because he's more so thinking about the reward of becoming an adventure Yeah, it's it's the pure motive of just helping people is gone It's about showing off and being impressive to try and get things Yeah, which is again informed Which I think is Loverly dovetails into the fact that he's a kid who was born in this world and for the past However long how long has it been at that point since iron man in the universe? I think yeah, just if you live in that world. Yeah, that's that's a prestigious role model and you'd love to be them Which is a mistake Wow, it's like Tony says it was you know, Peter's a lot I wanted to be like you and he said I wanted you to be better Done done Right Yeah, this scene where Tony literally shouts at Peter that sometimes taking too much responsibility even for moral reasons Can be a heavily selfish act if it implies endangering lives of innocent people Because if innocent people do suffer from your actions in your decisions It no longer matters how selfless you try to be their suffering will be on you Sometimes some risks are not worth taking I think that's a fair reading The only problem is the visual she just used We'll have to see where she's going with that one at least not alone And that's how peter gets to know that Until he doesn't yes I guess we'll allow her to elaborate Yeah, yeah, let's let out by mentally unstable criminals to freedom and put at risk the entire city because On me said so I don't know Oh Where do you even begin right like um It wasn't he's gonna I feel like it's weird because the film is explicit about this they have mj say Because this that's who he is It's not about on may telling him to do something and he just says sure i'll do it Spiderman don't really want to like kill the bad guys if he doesn't have to no Mysterio was more so mysterious fault than peters Yeah, like you didn't kill missy rio No, missy rio essentially killed himself. Um It's kind of like the glider thing, right? Um, and then of course in this film you're presented with if we send these people back Some of them will die, but right now we have a chance to maybe help them With all of the technology and all of the resources we have in our world. Yeah, and we should try This can soon that uh by doing so you endanger a lot of people he threatens them.  Yeah Yeah, the idea is that he it's a calculated risk and that he has That he can press at any time that will send them away instantly And he opts once aunt may dies to press that button, but the other peters convince him not to For reasons which are pretty obvious given their back stories. What the film is about. Um, but again, I'll let it carry on a bit Thank god. It wasn't just because may said so. No At the time peter was quite obviously shaken and traumatized by the experience at the ship And even if that was not the case you would think that at least Tony's words would cling to his small noggin for the rest of eternity But nope 20 movies later and well, so so here's the thing I think um Something that has been missed in referencing that scene is that peter's goals were to be impressive and cool And to be like the avengers and be a hero. That was what led him to do that Yeah, you know motivation is incredibly important as well as your capacity to Fix the situation which I think both aren't a problem in no way home for him Was worth pointing out because I think she prefaced this with the motivation doesn't matter anymore But I feel like Saying that in reference to that first scene kind of misses that the motivation was actually a big part Of that of like what happened.  He was not suited for No, and the Tony was going to take care of it. Um Well, cia right or something like that. Wow the fbi. Yeah, but but Tony said like he was going to take care of it And he didn't feel like Acknowledging that And yeah, just realizing the capacity of the situation in general like Um He doesn't have a game. It's really dangerous. Yeah, and there's lots of civilians and there's lots of literally like weapons dealers It's just it's just dangerous He's screwing around and the whole thing and like cracking jokes and messing around when it's kind of an important situation here Yeah, and then everyone on the ship is almost uh, not necessarily killed but they're in danger um And so yeah, you compare then to this situation where he's basically the only actor in this scenario that has the power to save these people He has a threat to prevent them from You know running around and killing everybody And uh, it's interesting that she said at least don't do it alone while showing dr. Strange dr. Strange Definitely like inherently as part of his character wants them dead slash out of here Yeah, he's he's he's a poach. You can't that's they have their argument I can't one of them has to win. They both have positions that they can't reconcile Yeah, and it's they're both in line with their characters the one almost one part of this whole film for dr. Strange It's like yes, that is how he would do it good as we've learned. They changed that in multiplayer madness Still as naive as ever except this time multiplied by eight point four. It's not naive He understands exactly what it is. He understands what choice is making That's what I believe this film uh concludes is that not only Is he not naive at the certainly by the end he actually made the correct decision And it was a hard one and it has hard repercussions Like to say that he doesn't understand that he's naive like Dr. Strange explicitly says if that spell gets loose like a whole bunch of people that we don't want hero coming here And he says I know but we can't just let them die. That's his position. He knows the risk But he values saving their lives more. Yeah, which isn't naive um It's it's just complicated in terms of his his values Exactly. Yeah, like the right thing to do isn't always the easiest nor is it the most risk-free option Nor does it even result in the best uh ending Yeah, it can be and that's what I think aunt may is getting at when she's dying Well art may it's like her core point is you got to try to like help people, you know Like yeah, never regret that because it results in good people getting hurt or something The whole the whole point of oh just send them to their their universe That's essentially like a metaphor for just passing your problems on to someone else Like they're his responsibility because he has the capacity to help them And just pressing the button and getting rid of them. It's like no, I don't want to deal with that It's not my problem. It's like well, it is your problem. You partly cause this Yeah, um And uh, which is why it does cycle back to homecoming really well because had he Actually saved the day on the ferry and everything worked out. He still would have been at fault for the fact that he did it all for prestige Exactly because the motives do matter a lot because here his motive was entirely simply to save lives Even at the against one of the most powerful Avengers that exist like that That's pretty impressive and it shouldn't be regretted. Which is what her point is Yeah I'm very impressed by the work they did for peter as a character and what they have to say about responsibility throughout the three films Across the whole trilogy. Yeah billion or something The tony stark had to spell this out for this guy for him to go mature learn grow go to space Fight with thanos and then come back and have a complete amnesia 20 movies later And you might be thinking well, that's why he's so conflicted when aunt may tries to force him to take responsibility Um, well, I can't really force him to do anything. She's just sort of giving perspective on this When he has dark arc Crampling through and all this other stuff going on He's just like what is the quick fix to get these guys back to the universe It's the most simple way to view the situation and then she's like i've spoken to norman He could really use some help And then yeah, and so to have that ingrained in there and then oh, he's gonna die if he goes back Well, yeah, that happens a little bit later then once norman talks to the others But what i'm getting at is just that um He was like what is the quick fix for this weird multi-versal problem we're having as opposed to these are people by the way Yep, like you might I know because you can easily miss that when you're looking at the mechanics of this insane situation it's like yeah, these these are actually individuals who are struggling and um Yeah, there's no like definitive uh position against sending them back until we realize that that will likely kill them Yeah Saying it's not my responsibility and that is not correct The reason why he should not release the villains is not because they're not his responsibility because by spidey standards They are but because the risks might not be worth it and even if he does end up releasing them Hang on. I need to do this again. So I kind of got lost when she's Mm-hmm Yeah, the reason why he should not release the villains is not because they're not his responsibility Because by spidey standards they are but because the risks might not be worth Well, no, that's just by because they're here because of your spell. That's not spidey standards That's just Because you you wanted to do this spell sort of thing and they're here because of you. That's just uh Yeah, and they're gonna die Now if you choose to do the take the easiest path, there's a harder path and it involves risks That's true But he has a he has a curel button in a safe place that instantly removes all of them I don't understand why people It's not a spidey standard. That's just a just a standard for what responsibility is It feels to me like people don't even remember that that's a thing in this film Like they forget that he has a box that can send them back instantly And the only response to that would be well, he doesn't use it when norman starts attacking him And it's like you're correct because spider-man doesn't want to use it.    He could have kept them in cages and still helped them. These two are not mutually exclusive So he actually has help from norman to make the cures Um, yeah Yeah, and and even doc arc.  I think that's reasonable It's uh, the reason I don't want to move out of the sanctum is because that's the first place doctor strange Is going to go once he gets out. It buys you more time at the very least Certainly would buy more time from peter's perspective and I think that's all that matters Yeah, absolutely I'm sad. I think it's a surprise to know that the audience loves doc arc. They love green goblin We know who they are and what they have been through and for that reason We're sympathetic towards them because we know that somehow all these villains have become villainous.  Didn't we? Yes, yeah Yeah, so seeing them back to back. Yeah, I think lizard is really a mess. Like he's a horrific villain In terms of writing and motivation Or just a the point I was making though is that she's implying That our sympathy for these characters comes from having seen them in other movies when if anything I have less because of who I know lizard to be However, the counter here that I really want to focus on is Well, they're people I don't know. There's a reason why when Norman's like peter. What's going on like? What's where are we going when he gets put in the cage? It's it's like Yeah, when if you've seen his film You as an audience member more than like you're gonna be like, hmm What about What about green goblin?  If you haven't I imagine you'll be like this poor guy.  Yep Yeah, so yeah, I'm already heading her off.  I don't think that's true at all No, yeah, yeah, yeah, we do not somewhat unintentionally And the movie uses that same bias and sympathy towards the characters to manipulate us into thinking that because we are Sympathetic and because we know for a fact that these people have good in them. So does Tom Holland's Peter Parker. No No They have good in them. It's about the capacity for them to be good. It's Literally humans. I don't know why this would be hard. Uh spider-man's interested in not killing any humans Yeah, you don't like doing that.  Okay, like He doesn't yeah the idea that Tom Holland's spider-man wouldn't have been invested in saving them unless he had seen the films They're from it's like bullshit No, he was he gets the information that there's a possibility.  Yeah, it's gotta be he has to see that There's a good side to them to know that they can reach us and it's like no It's just it's a basic human empathy that spider-man has I meant to say aunt may does with your permission I'm gonna refer to her as a plot from now on when in reality in the context of the movie No one in the cast has a damn clue why these villains are the way they are The only thing Peter knows for a fact is that his alternative selves All battled with each and every one of them which eventually got them killed and now are sad and psychotic And for the love of god, I can't explain how on earth he would ever think that these people could ever be redeemed Wow Wow, Jesus christ. It's so but wow Oh Mysterio was like so pretty bad person like flat out He was like a really bad guy and Peter still didn't want to kill him because that's not Really a thing that he wants to do ever Dude, he he scans dark arc with his little machine and he concludes almost immediately These arms they have an ai and they've taken over him because he used to have an inhibitor chip that's broken Yep, so what what is wrong with you? Like why would you say this this is very not what we would want for the character writing We want Peter to think about that chip being broken.   He doesn't know much about them. So conversely, he shouldn't write them off instantly You know, you can just make the same argument in reverse. It's like he shouldn't trust He shouldn't believe that they have good it's like he shouldn't believe they're all evil He doesn't know enough about them And she's referencing dark arc having tossed a car with a person off like a bridge and stuff. It's like, yeah, that's really bad But like he has no context for any of this and then people have similar Let's say context being booped into this universe. You have like sandman and electro He has a normal conversation with both of them. He understands Norman is a very tortured man like If we all met these people and knew nothing about them outside of what we see Peter sees within the first like act Um, I with all of you. I just be like if someone said like we should kill them all right, I'd be like, whoa Whoa Keep it light. Well, I'm especially keeping in mind that Norman went to the feast and like talked to me Yeah, I didn't do anything. Yeah, didn't he say his reasoning as well was that he knew that she was connected to spider-man Like as a business hoping maybe he could find him here Exactly He's like, yeah, it's a bit of a twist in the story right because we're looking for green goblin But it's like Norman came to us Um, yeah, I'm gonna roll it back a little bit just to hear all that again because that was pretty crazy They're the way they are the only thing Peter knows for a fact is that his alternative selves all Battled with each and every one of them.  They're gonna die as a result of pressing the button He's like oh shit Exactly I mean yeah, we're talking about meta knowledge then I think the person operating with all the meta knowledge here is you Yeah, and I'm doing it wrong and it goes far as saying the film almost gives you what she's actually Think in the piece is like they're from the multiverse put them back And then aunt may is like well, it's a little bit more complicated, right? Because these people are going through stuff Don't you want to find out what it is and see what's going on and he was just like Oh, yeah, he just needs to be reminded of the reality. Like I said, it's it's a little bit more complicated than just You made a split in the universe. You got to sew it. It's like you've got other stuff going on Yeah, like from his perspective. It's a pretty simple arithmetic. He sees that The powers of the x-factor here the reason that these people are capable of doing such harm is because that they have these powers For one reason or another and that's the reason they're ultimately killed So you subtract those powers you will that means you subtract possibly their deaths and you add More of a capacity to do good because you've taken away their capacity to do harm like it's pretty Easy to understand from his perspective Yeah, and and we know with meta knowledge that by taking their power you may actually save several of them Definitely I think that these people could ever be redeemed Both peter and plot have no idea that at least half of these people have ever been good and of what they So that's actually a reason for him to assume that they can be rather than they shouldn't like I don't know when you meet a human for the first time and you know nothing about them Why would we assume? Ah, you're probably evil then Little thing called good faith. This is like the weird moon night stuff going on here It's uh, it's so odd that she's saying like peter would need a reason to think that these human beings have anything about them that could be redeemable Like damn, I feel like that's part of what motivates him at the core in the first place It's kind of like when you have a superhero That's almost one of the traits that gets given to them automatically like we don't need to know why they think a person is worth saving When you don't know who they are Very surely you don't go through your life really thinking like this. I hope Please They just rely on the sheer luck that Norman and Octavius do not turn out to be prone to compulsive lying along with their other Obvious mental instabilities that they didn't look they relied on them not being prone to compulsive lying But that's not Their character I was gonna say that's not luck who they are. Yeah, it's not luck. That's they aren't that thing They are not that thing and peter doesn't have a reason to think they are that thing Doc Ock is a Aggressive and arrogant in spider-man 2 when he's got the the legs that control in him And he doesn't take shit from anybody and he's oftentimes making fun of people too Like that's just he's that kind of guy. He doesn't I don't see him I don't even know what she means. What does she think would happen if they lied exactly? What is she talking about? Peter would have to not only It's like why why would peter think they were compulsive liars anyway But like what what is she suggesting they could have achieved if they were liars? And they would they would have to lie and peter would have to believe that they were lying too And peter would have to believe it to such an extent that he would want to Kill them Why wouldn't he want to maybe try to help him out let's run the scenario doc ock is incredibly friendly He doesn't even do the whole fight scene at the beginning.  Why did you do that?  Are you dangerous and nobody else tells the truth? And he just goes no i'm i'm just a friendly dude I invented these arms to help me get around and they helped me build my machines that helped the world and Hopefully you can get me back Literally what changes about the plot? Yeah and to be like oh well then it's convenient because Had he done that from the get go then peter might have let him go and it's like yeah, but then you have to just say Well, first of all, he wouldn't but secondly, why would doc ock do that? Why would he be like He's crashing around in our universe looking for peter parker We don't get context for how he ended up on that bridge or what he thinks of the world He's currently in or what he thinks is happening, but How he got his new shirt How is it it just it abuses me to think that he spawned somewhere just walked all that way looking for peter parker I guess or doc. I'm not sure. I'm not sure what he was doing because uh Smashing into a motorway probably isn't the best thing to do to get to your machine Yeah, and he was shirtless when he did like at the point in the timeline that he disappeared from So he had to crash through a clothes store first Maybe maybe he was really cold or something because he was Quite he was quite wet when he was uh during that point in the film in spider-man to maybe Yeah, uh, he hates spider-man and he feels confident he can defeat him in a fight So I don't see why he would do anything other than what we see him do in in his opening scene with spider-man Like it's it's weird to say that can it's it's like a convenient thing that they're not lying to peter when I don't think it changes much of anything at all and then norman. Why would he lie? He's like The personality of norman osborne not green goblin is this tortured soul that's desperately looking for help It doesn't make sense any in any way that he would lie And these things are convenient that led them to have criminal tendencies for all peter cares All of them could be born as sociopathic manipulative psychos And we as an audience undoubtedly root for the entire for all peter cares I don't even know what she why would we ever assume someone is just inherently like evil and unsalvageable That's yeah, that is quite the that's uh Quite a damn nation on someone wouldn't be rooting for peter if you would just assume everyone is just a psychotic liar all the time Yeah, like what if i may told him told him about norman and he's like i'm pretty sure he's like evil We have no reason to think that he's a good person How weird would that be? Yeah, and if she focused on sand man when she said that and he's just like he's probably the more clear cut like Not evil peter person there what they meet for the first time.   You do what? Yeah, and electro making it a very clean and understandable motivation from the get go as far as I'm considered in this film He wants power He loves the way he looks and feels in this world and that ties in a lot to max in uh tazen 2 being Yes, and and just to to be something that's not lame and loser-ish like he wants to be something more um And and that's why I really like that once he loses the power Uh andrew goff feels spider-man is just like, you know max you and he's just like yeah, I'm tapped out. That's it. Like what else is there? It's like if an endgame avengers went, you know what we feel bad for thanos. He sounds so sad So this is not comparable because Thanos is actively trying to destroy the universe You have to stop him from actively trying to destroy the universe. It's not an apt comparison. I also That relies on our meta that just relies on the audience not wanting the universe to be destroyed I also don't mind Acknowledging that there is a humanity in thanos. Uh, they try to show pieces of it. Uh, yeah, it's gone by endgame Yeah, and he wants to destroy it tread the universe to its last add and whatever that means But I guess to to hammer it in It's not an apt comparison when you kill somebody it Who who is actively trying to destroy the universe like right at this moment and if you don't stop him He will yeah versus these are people who I have under my Essentially captive I have leverage against them and I have the means to maybe save them.  Yeah, space dogs are okay Oh, yeah Just against our own intelligence. It's like if an endgame bengers went, you know what we feel bad for thanos He sounds so sad and grumpy all the time. Let's just time travel back and help my question might be like school or something And yeah, I can if what if like at the end of does she think that at the end of avengers when they had low key captive They should have been like, ah, I can't trust him and then hawkeye releases the arrow that goes right through his eye Is the thing let's pretend for a second.   He hasn't got his stones. He can barely walk. He has no army I think they'd feel pretty bad about killing him at that point. They'd be like They're not gonna execute him.  Yeah, it's badly written Already feel hundreds of people you know fringy.  No kill me. No, and then at the end of the comic They think they're in the clear and then the woman's just like yeah, I'm gonna sneak up on spider-man And he'll kill me from the reaction So he she sneaks up on him and he just back Snaps her neck by accident and that's how the comic is Spider-man kills this woman by accident A grim reality see that that is though like that sounds funny But like That would be something that would be the the controversial and risky story to tell spider-man accidentally kills You know an enemy. Hey, and what does he do? To art school or something and here I can already feel hundreds of people lining up in the comments to pinpoint that That's just who peter fricking parker is it's what he does He is naive and young stop saying naive when you're talking about naive That's not naive He doesn't want to kill people It feels weird because she's calling all of us naive then it's like because I believe in humanity I believe that we shouldn't kill people when they're in trouble. Like why would you say that that's naive? That's so weird Well, you haven't killed someone today. It's nice Legitimately downright refreshing in the marvel cinematic universe have like a hero who wants to not only not kill the villains but try to save Yeah To save them put himself in danger to save them and try to make them better. It's it's really it's really cool Especially when most villains just get killed Like there's no consideration at all and to clarify it's not even just about the whole killing them thing Which is crazy, but like believing you can help people That's that's like a really good quality. Why would you say it's naive? Uh, which means there's no idea who they are She's using that as a reason for why he shouldn't believe they can be helped when in reality that is a reason you should believe it It's like you don't know anything that would counter the idea that you can help them He doesn't want to save green goblin after he kills may yes It's when he kills may that it's like oh, no, I don't want to help you anymore because this is what you've done, you know Toby reminds him Orton that's right even for what we do this things like that We got to save all of them, right? And that's why he's so gullible and always messes up. He wasn't gullible.  He's a good man Like that the save dark arc getting saved leads to other people getting saved in the film Yeah, how could you possibly conclude he was wrong like dark arc saves them and electro And if you seriously want a site that aren't made dies I'd be like so anytime this collateral whenever a good action is taken it automatically means the overall act was bad You just which is makes you wonder like what do you do in adventures when loki's in new york? It's like uh-oh one person died give give it up. It's over. Yeah, let him take the planet It's not worth it if we kill a person And funnily enough, um, I feel like that's the point this film is making that yeah It cost Aunt May's life but that doesn't mean it was the wrong decision Well as far as Aunt May's concerned it was the right decision even if it got her killed Which is I think that I think there's the message of no way home, right? Is that doing the right thing is really easy Oh, yeah, totally But there's a difference between a script using a character trait to make a person more complex and a script Overusing the state character trait to flatten the character by I can understand that That every single time we need something crazy to happen They rely on a particular character trait for example, they're crazy or they're arrogant and in this case, they're naive But again, I don't consider what he does in this film to be naive Um, except with the spell character, which I think is relatively fair like That's much more than dr. Strange though I should have told him what I'm what I'm referring to is that peter didn't have the capacity to say like We should plan out this spell and we should talk about the ethical nature of this spell Like these are things that I can believe the kid that he is Didn't uh, pan that out in his head properly But him deciding that we should try and save people instead of letting them die Or we should see what we can do to help them. I don't consider that. Oh, they're only doing this crazy plot line because he's naive No, that's actually something that he's learned at this point and it's a strong foundation Yeah, they're doing it because he's moral. That's there's a very big distinction there Besides, I don't know that um It feels it does feel weird because like the other end of this argument is um Were you saying that once you've used the naivety to to cause a particular issue in a script?     I've seen what it does. It's literally a villain arc We could all agree that peter does act like an naive kid that causes him to do idiotic things, but we can Sorry idiotic. I'm assuming she doesn't on purpose Yeah But yeah, just saying like him giving the glasses to back to me is yeah That's fair to say that it was a naive choice But it was built on a lot of what he thought was a responsible choice as part of that film's point Didn't come out of nowhere We can also all agree that that does not make him an idiot who cannot for his life Mature or read between the lines ever and I'm bringing this up because in far from home The exact lesson that peter learns is do not trust people. You don't know Uh, I know not even close. That's not at all what far from home's about Don't trust people. You don't know that is not at all Just a point of far from home. That's all like the point of that film is so much more about Who are you going to be as a superhero in reference to the reality that the world has just lost iron man? Can you fill his shoes and then far from home says I don't have to fill his shoes. I am spider-man I'm spider-man. I'll do my own thing my own way Yeah It's beautiful Don't trust people. You don't know.  There's like no No, he's a friendly dude. He's he's he'll when he walks past someone on the street And sees that they're I don't know going to go help some old lady cross the road. So he's not going to be like, um, I don't know them.  Uh, gotta be careful with that No, he's this is ridiculous. And it's definitely not what is to be learned from far from home Because sometimes people we trust might turn out to be psychos manipulators Megalomaniacs, okay, so if we conclude that Then what about all the people he has trusted and has turned out good? Would that not then give him a ratio of some kind of how much he should probably do it? If there's only a one percent chance that they could be lying it needs to be taken with an has an absolute certainty And actually we got to remember that this is the remember out of all the spider-man MCU peter has probably more reason to trust than others because he lives in a world where where superpowered people in general Do do the right thing? Um, a lot of the time we have entire teams forming with of superpower people doing the right thing. So This is a very flawed argument because peter is essentially personally only come across what three or four people at this point with um powers and abilities that Have done the wrong thing and that includes in avengers team up style thing. So, you know What else she's just categorically wrong that that could even be something he could learn as far as he was aware He did know mysterio He lied a lot of this is based off of his perception like a lot of the previous points So it's just like this doesn't it's Norman. It's not fair at all He's worked with mysterio to save the world said several conversations with him He's been told about this heroic history. It's like, yeah, I feel like I know him at this point And I feel like he can take care of edith as a Technology or whatever and it's like, yeah, well, you should have waited until you knew him Like how is he supposed to know that? Mysterio's entire point as a character is that he has a constant illusion as to what he actually is You never get to find out the truth So yeah, just just enlighten me as to when it counts that you know someone Is it when you feel you know them or when they reveal their true identity to you?  Well, he was meant to learn this lesson, I guess because evidently he hasn't And it's funny that she's saying that with the clip of electro going past when electro is kind of a good guy He just with with the Thing that happens to him gets power hungry as hell Taking that away from him puts him back into being a normal nice guy It's like nope peter was wrong to have tried to help him And you should never trust anybody that you don't know I don't even know what she means by that exactly She's she's saying that he should never have trusted that they wouldn't kill people when that's explicitly something peter's accounting for with the box Yeah, why would he need the why would he need to threaten him with that if he just completely and fully trusted him exactly Feels like this is Very incomplete as a thought Definitely from no way home and far from home peter's trust in beck's character makes complete sense since Mysterio literally spends like half a movie gaining it because even so now i'm just lost Yeah Peter offers them an ultimatum And well i'm talking about the fact she just acknowledged that mysterious lied to him and manipulated him into thinking that he knew him And she said you shouldn't trust people. You don't know it's like peter thought he knew him He thought he was a good guy. Yeah That was his mistake, but like That's he didn't really have much reason to think otherwise Are we to assume then that peter just can he's just this crazy Is like he could i could never trust anybody because ultimately they could be lying to me down the road like Okay Even though the script is aware of peter's naivety It does not treat him like an idiot even then peter's inexperience and mysterious manipulative skills cause parker to miscalculate in his trust which my friends concludes in this scene To be fair talking about the fact that he believed this whole situation it was an illusion um That's to do with spider sense as well. Just uh Being aware of how much you're being pulled and pushed into different directions I don't think this has to do fundamentally with it's not like fury says you trust people that you don't even know I really don't think that's the point being made Are you smarter than whip? just uh Sucker Now all your friends have to die And pause for the old copies Yeah, uh-huh. I don't know if it's protected or not. So this is gonna be awkward Better safe. Sorry. It's easy to fool people when they're already fooling themselves Easy to fool people when they're already fooling themselves and he's referring to the fact that spider man thinking that he could ever Like be the hero That who inspired him to get to this point, which is the villain talking It's not about filling their shoes Without being your own You got to play a lot of this Yeah, I mean it's it's tilted and filtered and yeah, but the audio is like clear enough, isn't it? It's a little bit clear enough. Yeah, I suppose but I think The I really am sorry And here I am to believe that after that whole nightmare that this poor child went through not only he does not have any trust issues or ptsd Trust issues You don't have to have those things though. Yeah, that's the thing. It's not like I tick the boxes for ptsd Why don't you have it? Damn it Because that's not how it works. Yum if he did after this event that would be one thing But he doesn't have to After this After having died and watching his father figure die If that fucked him up quite a bit this I think we can argue did a different Thing where he got brought to a rock bottom on the plane with happy and by the end he says Uh, does he say you can't trick me anymore?  It doesn't imply that he trusts that they won't do anything wrong. Does it Seems to imply something else. However, she's simply referring to he trusts the idea that he can help them become better people I should be like yes Don't know why you think that's bizarre First for no reason at all like so weird to hear it when like that's part of a big point this film makes about spider-man Five days after being completely and utterly betrayed deceived and traumatized by a horrible person Why why yes by a horrible person?  It's like okay They're moving Iced by mysterio if his actions in far from home make him naive Then his actions in no way home within the context of far from home Make him out to be a complete half-wit because at the end of the last movie He is no longer a naive child, but you can't just say someone learned something. They're no longer naive Like that's crazy. That's just not how it works Like you could only get fooled by a person in your life and then in one way And then you just flip into being a villain. That's just how it works I hope I hope not.  You couldn't do it he is um He realizes his own like faulty motivations in homecoming. He loses a bit of his naivety in that film Does that mean it shouldn't be in present at all in far from home? It's like she's arguing that he's naive in the first two because he learns to not be naive in this one And it's like are you what are you talking about? That is like a constant trait for everyone You what you need to argue to me is that it was out of character levels of naivety For example like oh, you know dr. Strange was just naive about uh the nature of the book of vishanti because He didn't read the book about the book of vishanti that was given to the sorcerer supreme. It's like yeah, that doesn't make any sense mm-hmm Like the the level of um of mistrust and bitterness. She's describing is more consistent with A consistent and long-term history of being fucked over Again and again not just one bad experience This is a this seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding with how Most people work where we kind of bounce back Experienced dude whose gullibility has cost him a lot of trauma in the past part of This is annoying saying like uh his gullibility. It's like a lot of it is to do with the fact that he believes in people Yeah, and it's like to always shake that off of gullibility. Yeah, that's what I mean Like it's like we shouldn't just every time someone You know stretches out a hand to help somebody and every time it goes wrong. You say you're so gullible. It's like Man, okay. Yeah, just being lied to and manipulated. I mean that that's kind of how It is reasonable to believe lies based off of the information that you're presented You can be unreasonable, but be correct if someone Goes through a lot of effort and if they're very good at manipulating you if they're very good at misleading you If they're very good at warping information that they present to you The most reasonable thing that you could do in a situation is to believe that person exactly Yeah, it's based off of information that is not true But it's your processing of that information and what you should expect to be able to believe Just because someone has lied to you and you believed it does not make you gullible It's ridiculous if we had had someone on e5 who just you know A guest we've seen a couple of videos from them and they're like, yeah I had actually a that wasn't even my first channel My first channel was all about reviewing soap if you can believe it and we were all just like wow really? He's like, yeah, and you go.  And we're just like really and he's like, yeah It's not just like a simple dye that does nothing a lot of people think that but the nature of dying soap Yeah, there's chemicals.   I don't know why I would just assume anything you tell me that I'm not familiar with is a lie That's just stupid Yeah, but no I would be gullible at that So he's like, okay, whatever fine No, I don't know the color of soap is determined by the magic spell that was used at the factory To determine its cleanliness rating and then it'd be like I don't believe you It's using his youth as an excuse for his nonsense behavior Even it's not nonsense behavior and it's sad that you call it that Yeah, it is sad So he's basically an adult at this point who has been through almost the exact What do you mean when you say basically an adult? Are you implying that he's still got time to grow like most adults do? Like he's 16 17 right by far from home. I think so. Yeah God the amount I had to learn at that point still He's had like a whole movie where he learned things. Why is he still learning things?  Yeah gullible There's in this movie, but somehow due to amnesia or maybe a genius writing that I do not have enough IQ to comprehend It's not about IQ. It's literally just morality. I'm very confused why you you have such an issue with someone Valuing a fellow human being's capacity for change and goodness. Why are the people we cover have this problem consistently? I am genuinely going to be as nice as possible and assume she's accidentally written herself into saying something she doesn't believe I hope so for this is such a weird thing to say Like I have a feeling that if you're in this call right now, she would be like, no, no, no, no, no That's not what I mean. And I'd be like, okay. Let's see what you actually meant because it didn't come through Still has not learned a thing. Oh, he's also a Been to space battled with Thanos is a physician, mathematician, chemist, engineer But simultaneously he has not enough brain cells to decide against trapping the men who saw 14 million different outcomes of an infinity war And helped Avengers choose the only one that would end in their victory And who is the only helpful and competent person on this earth when it comes to magic and who is willing to help Instead of letting out five deadly criminals to freedom. Oh, I guess she must have missed the scene. This is fine We can tell her about it.  What's gonna happen? And then he um, he does the little thwip Grabby and dr. Strange like no Um, this scene is supposed to tell you as an audience that they are fundamentally Diametrically opposed as to the solution to this problem. Dr. Strange cannot help Peter with Peter's goals Spider-man civil war kind of I'm sad All of the things she said about engineering and chemistry that didn't it's not applicable to that other decision So you're right and it's really weird to To say about a person who studied all those subjects that they are those things if you know what I mean like He is a it feels weird to refer to him as a physicist as opposed to a boy who understands physics quite well Yeah, like I I'm not I'm not saying it's an inaccurate way to put it It just makes it sound as though he has diplomas and all of these things Yeah, I think he's planning to go to university that film is he known like that means he has a lot more to learn Well, yeah, we're expecting the next trilogy of years college years Hopefully, I'm not sure how that's gonna work when he's wiped his personality off the fucking face of the earth You'll find I'm sure it'll all make sads Actually Speaking of that despite the that was a joke the spider-man civil war thing But that I remembered that if the villains hadn't leaked ahead of time apparently What they were going to do with the marketing is they were going to actually just advertise it as oh, yeah It's spider-man versus dr. Strange. This is what no way home is going to be about And then it was going to be this big reveal that all the Villains were back and everything So I just wonder what it would have been like to live in that universe where none of the leaks happened And we had no idea about any of the appearances ahead of time I remember reading a really early leak that described it as a dr. Strange and spider-man Hunting down a little like ramy and tazam villains and putting them in the little prison cells And I remember reading that being like that sounds so shit. Oh my god But uh the context of it is a lot better than it sounds Would you say you were naive I was ignorant naive and uh foolable gullible. It was horrible Glalable. I've also muted this now so that I can just pull it out. I'll put it back up now Okay, let's begin with an elephant in the room if the elephant looks like an unapologetic goddess a strong badass And also a terribly written poor excuse of a plot device All right So this is the thing she's done with this action on peter parker We dramatically disagree with her about almost everything she said And that was the biggest issue she takes with the film. This is like runner-up. I guess or maybe this is the bigger issue I'm not actually sure but um aunt may Was not the same as aunt may in the ramy films nor in the comics necessarily in terms of their Approach with a character and homecoming a far from home. She doesn't get a lot of time Because um not as relevant as a lot of people would have preferred However, I wouldn't describe anything we see As dramatically inconsistent. There's there's gaps though ones that I would have preferred them to have filled like her um In homecoming she tells peter that if If something troublesome it was ever to happen. He needs to needs to run and get out of there sort of thing I think it's one of the first conversations they have Um, and then of course when she finds out he's spider-man by the time we get to far from home She's very encouraging of him a spider-man And so it feels like there should be at least a scene Where we get her to explain her position on how she feels about him being spider-man And that could be as simple as her saying I have seen spider-man do so many incredible things to know that that's your Like potential. I never have to worry about you being in some kind of ridiculous danger I have to be proud of you for being someone who's helped so many people That's sort of just something like that to connect the two mays that we'd be aware of Instead, I guess they rely on us to just simply infer once she found out he was spider-man She had a change of heart in that. She knows that he's strong and capable And I think that's a relatively fair inference considering her um her goals uh with that uh, I can't remember How it begins in homecoming exactly but in far from home they reference she's she's got like a A situation in a career of helping people, right? Well, because she runs feast, which is the uh, basically like community center. Yeah Because happy is talking to her at that place in far from home, right? And I don't think I mean in far from home at the beginning Feast like she's the one who organized the event So and then spider-man will make appearances because you know, quote-unquote hero, but also because reality is peter parker Yeah You know, well, yeah, well one of my um, I guess criticisms of far from moment that we didn't really get A flashback that kind of continues on from the cliffhanger of um homecoming because I think that is a very poignant moment to see aren't many finding out about Peter and all the baggage that comes with that but at the same time, it's not you're right. It isn't overly inconsistent. It's just there's there is a there is a space there that um As audience members, we would preferably like to see filled. Yes. Um, and then no way home Does a lot with her um And I quite liked a lot of it. So it's interesting to see her referred to as an like a wholly written plot device Okay Give me your argument wrong words In the past two movies aunt may was just There her connection with peter was always evident and more times than not quite wholesome even But she could barely even be considered to be a supporting character let alone the most sensible one may's purpose Let alone the most sensible one I'm lost. Would barely be considered to be a supporting character. Let alone a sensible supporting character Supporting character by any definition of the word I was gonna say I don't know what you'd refer to her as if she doesn't get to be supporting or sensible Hmm Just in the story was almost always centered around adding a familiar Relateability factor to peter parker's everyday life and it would make sense Why mcu would decide to switch up may's and then story arcs for obvious reasons But it's as clear as day that mcu never actually made that decision I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure what she's saying exactly Does she mean just because yeah that Ben was already dead at this point in the story because they wanted to move past that Point in peter's story donated someone to play I think what she's saying is like They kind of wanted may to fit that role, but they weren't definitive or conclusive on that choice And so she was kind of in limbo for a while. That's my reading of what she's saying Well, um, not until disney decided that they wanted to capitalize off of spire versus success And now suddenly our may goes from an occasional comic relief and a relatable embarrassing auntie to An entire moral and emotional backbone of spire man because well, I mean Well, she didn't need to be before in the same capacity. So I find yeah My diverse made that happen like may has always been like a hugely important part of peter's uh In pretty much every piece of media about spider-man like in a in a sense may is a lot more important than ben Because she's present in his life for such a long time It's really weird to say spider versus what prompted the decision to make her important in no way home as opposed to This is the film that peter loses the most Or you know Even spider man pierced or would be a better example of of them wanting to have maybe much more of like the moral backbone Yeah, well, what's weird about this for me is that Aunt may in the in the previous two films she was um She was never in the thick of it like she is here like this is This is this is a case where everything is coming home Quote on quote for spider-man. So that means that she is going to be thrust more into this role And that doesn't mean that she wouldn't have Been that if she was more if she was say in europe or um, whatever in um The last couple of minutes just that she was never her place in the story like there wasn't really an organic way to To to put her in that role in the in the other film So that's that for me that it just read as you know, she wasn't It didn't read as oh suddenly she is this it was more like oh now suddenly she's in these new circumstances So a part of her character that just didn't have much of a chance to come out before Is now being allowed to be displayed. I think I don't get it if feast wasn't implied or addressed at all right up until no way home I would feel it's a little clunky But it is set and that Is just a great idea because what kind of person do you have to be to make something like feast? Like well, you're gonna have to be someone who cares about other people right and that's helpful in terms of understanding peter He's got a parent who would obviously have instilled some of these values into him as he was growing up along with uncle ben Likely a lot of a lot of that coming from both of them So the idea that it's like She's his moral backbone and that's like lame or something when it's just like well I actually prefer the idea that We have a strong reason for why peter has been characterized the way that he was up until he was a kid like you can do Rather like pre at peteen, I guess like um You'd have had inspiration from those people in his life that were raising him like this It's the same for superman like superman, which wasn't born good It's the the kents are really important to making black who he is um Same for Uncle ben and aunt mate, but like we having her Reinforcing the right thing to do in this film is completely suitable. I don't know why we would ever consider it like plot devicey yeah So we're saying We don't want her to be in the movie at all then just Background character and just don't do anything with her Sounds like she's suggesting that uh aunt may sort of Dull what position about doing good came out of nowhere in order to force by demand to think to do good when It's it would have been present with feast like there's no way she has an organization like that and doesn't feel that way It's very implicit. Yeah It's just that she hasn't been a focal point until this film Plots and this last minute switch up causes the movie to rely What's supposed to be the most gut-wrenching moment in the trilogy on the relationship and the character? That was never correctly set up to have emotional impact of that magnitude I disagree Of all the characters That could impact peter emotionally I feel like aunt may is the top of that list Especially now that might be able to contest that would be iron man. He's already dead. So that's what i'm saying Yeah post post in game. I mean she's at the top of the list. Who else would it be like he's lived with her this whole time They're they they essentially his parents I I don't know who would it be you'd have to invent a new character in that way like The point that's being made here as well She didn't have like a whole lot of screen time in the price of films It's like sure but the relationship existed and it's easy to infer what that relationship would be because it's pretty It's a pretty clear one. There's some really good scenes with them though. Like when he comes home from the ferry situation I was just about to bring that up. Yeah, like who does peter lean on in his most vulnerable Hours in these films. It's pretty consistently aunt may it may be Ned or mj at certain points, but aunt may is always the person that he will cry to that he will Um that he will let those emotions out to like I think he did to happy and far from home But that was because aunt may physically wasn't in europe. Yeah, that's the only reason it wasn't to do that And I think it's really fair to highlight. It's she's like a rock to him There's no way she's reliable. She'll always be there and she's taken away in this film That's last last of his family Like isn't that enough already? So, I mean it feels weird that she's like you can't have as big of a Um, it's another awkward thing as well because like well it worked for me. So Yeah, it really works. I need a better argument than it's it's just not it doesn't work. It's like, okay What else you got? Which in turn makes the emotional arc of the movie completely depend on the last minute decision to screw Tony Stark and clumsily shove the quote to compensate for I No, no, no the resolution of what his relationship with with tony was far from home. That's the resolution In terms of relationship with tony. I'm not even a hundred percent clear on what her point is here I think it's almost that tony was the vehicle for responsibility as a message And they changed their mind later on and then decided to make it may As far as I'm concerned, it's it's tony may and uh ben all three of them had a hand in this park Is uh, well at hand and toby and andrew Yep, definitely those two in the end. It's a lot of people and our components. Yeah, it doesn't need to be one It doesn't need to be just one And in a certain sense tony's role has has been fulfilled at this stage Um, tony's um, and tony's still lingers in certain ways. He's still using his safe house He still has happy who was very monumental in i'm not anymore tony like Uh Well, yeah, he had um Uh, but he within the context of no way home like he's not uh, he's not abandoned tony stark by any stretch Like he's there's still lingering threats. I'm kind of open. She developed six Set up to have emotional impact of that magnitude Which in turn makes the emotional arc of the movie completely depend on the last minute decision to screw tony stark And clumsily shoved the quote to compensate for aunt may's lack of emotional resonance with the audience in the past movies His uncle bent. I disagree but go on for yours to go. Yeah, like I don't Continue I guess hell's peter with the great power I'm not gonna say the quote It is done in a way that these words that initially flew over peter's head Where forever imprinted in his brain by the traumatic experience of losing his uncle by not following his advice When peter does not listen to his uncle does not use his powers for greater good Does not take responsibility. It directly causes uncle ben's death. That is the reasoning behind uncle ben Which by the way, I appreciate but I'm assuming we all agree That's quite a coincidence So like the message is given to him By this man and he ignores that message from this man and the following day the man dies as a result of peter not Taking responsibilities. It's like wow Quite a coincidence. It doesn't It's not it's not bad in any way for me understanding why a character would learn something so important as a result of this event It's just that that is quite a coincidence. Yeah Yeah um, it's less of a coincidence from memory and um In the rey me ones because he's coming to pick peter up, right? Yeah, so it's kind of like yeah, he's like in a town and he's just walking around and he happens to Be sort of in the same vague area that peter was when you yeah, it's just I think there are ways to write that that can make it much more cause and effecty Yeah, oh in in the original comic It's the I think it's um from memory is even worse because the guy gets away like in the rey me films But then he coincidentally breaks into the park a house later that night and that's when uncle ben dies Well, and this is kind of what i'm getting at like, um, it still works perfectly character-wise It's just you know plot writing. It's just like well you didn't exactly take much Work to make those events happen that way. Did you and again? Yeah, I already know this will Perhaps is the the scariest part of this whole video for people listening right now It's like it's okay. Don't worry about it, but it is something we typically highlight in plots, right in other films. It's okay Yeah Ben's death he needs to make peter see listen and prove his words to be true And here's what bugs me with no way home's writing. It makes this movie to be a living breathing contradiction of itself You see when aunt may hints at this to peter peter does not act like any other spidey boy No, this peter is smart. This peter listens to his auntie. This peter does take responsibility Which directly causes aunt may's death Oh wait if this peter did not take responsibility and sent willem defo to hell aunt may would have survived Willem wouldn't will them defo wouldn't go to hell though First of all, yeah, that's true.   He doesn't and she dies this film screwed it up. She doesn't realize that A second point is being made by no way home that goes beyond the first point that most spiderman content makes with its first story Which is that sometimes taking responsibility does have consequences And you still have to try and push through anyway to still do the good thing even in the face of these terrible consequences Which is such a nuanced thing to say Uh, what's like maize maize purpose in the story is even though I have died because you took you did this That was still the right thing to do and you need to keep doing it So you have to keep going on which I think pushes with great power comes great responsibilities at the literal fucking end It's like what if doing that costs you the ones you love and that's what aunt may die saying Don't worry about it. It's still the right thing to do Because that's her point is even though I died. This was the right thing to do And it's kind of the it's the point that's essentially re-emphasized by the other spiderman Is like, yeah, she died but it would be in vain if you actually didn't like take her lesson on board Which is to continue to try and save them. It's crazy me that like It's read as a contradiction as opposed to an additional point Well, it's like you you've said that the point of the film is a contradiction when it's like the point of the film It's kind of Insane actually that this feels like a fundamental misunderstanding of the film Well, yeah, I don't like to pull the card of you didn't understand But this is her reading and this is not what the film was trying to go for at all Not the references that you can gather from the film. I think something got missed along the way I think it was it has to be If if you were to ask like john watz he he'd probably be like that was the That was the point like he wouldn't he wouldn't respond to that like oh, that's an intro. Oh, I didn't even Screwed up. Yeah, it was supposed to be that she dies because peter didn't take responsibility. Right, right, right, right No, that's absolutely Not the case because this is the kind of stuff we talk about all the time If someone said like yep, you should always take responsibility and help people no matter what we would the first thing We would say is like well, I mean so what if and then homecoming what if far from home What if no way home the the taking responsibility gets one of your loved ones killed But it ultimately is the right motivation How would she square away that because the last thing that goblin says before peter cures him is like It's your fault that she's dead and in response to that he cures him Like how would you because obviously that ties in directly to the whole thing with may's death is To continue to finish what she would have wanted to to take responsibility even though it has these consequences. How would you All the things we just said are what may says Pretty much like I don't understand how this is missed. This is really weird. This is the big interesting point I think the film makes which is The same situation spider-man ends up in in a lot of the times But this time it was caused by him taking responsibility. What does that say about taking responsibility? It says Sometimes it fucking sucks and it can go bad because Because remember the point with him in terms of convincing him not to press the button is just because a bad thing happens because you took Responsibility doesn't mean that the correct choice is not to take responsibility Yes, the terrible thing happened because you tried to do the right thing That's not a reason to not try to do the right thing It's like the bad things can happen no matter what that's just that's what doing things entails Some unintended consequences can just happen and unfortunately It seems to me the had they let's say used doc ox tentacles to wrap around norman before he changed Just out of complete fear that he might and then they uh, they perfect the serum They even meet up with toby. They sort that all out everything goes well Art may send them all off. They all go happily ever after back to their places You'd have to make the video of like Well Peter was right That Like anything could happen Peter if you had said to peter when he introduces them into the apartment He's working on them You'd said to him you understand someone could die here, right for as long as you try to help them And he'd probably like it is possible. Yeah, but I would rather do everything I can to save as many as I can Which includes these guys Yeah, like I think that the lesson we're meant to take away here is that um Responsibility and living up to that responsibility that is not necessarily synonymous with having a happy ending and indeed often It's more synonymous with sacrifice and that's a lesson spider-man will have to learn again and again and again And this guy's going back to her point about tony this actually supports the idea that he did take a lot from tony because tony sacrificed himself To live up to his responsibility to not just the world but the universe right like in theory of ignoring all the problems with end game and so this is him continuing on in that legacy of sacrifice of You know, you know, he doesn't just have may sacrifice in this film. He later on sacrifices his literally his place in the world So that the the universe can be like it it's spiritual He actually commits a very similar act to Tony like he Peter Parker is killed essentially at the end of this film. Um So I I don't understand how she's reaching any of the conclusion. She is I guess the point of deciding that like it seems to me this movie has him conclude If I don't have anybody special in my life, then I can continue to take responsibility and it doesn't cost them When I actually think that you know soon enough we'll have an arc where he realizes That's not what he should have concluded from this That you know having people who loves in his life is important um But it's a great way to because that's a that's a game doing the thing right where you have a full arc But you you add a little bit on that's a little faulty and can be addressed for the next story Because it makes me Let's make me wonder how they're gonna because you could do something interesting if the symbiote is there And it feeds into his negative thoughts You could have that arc where he's already at like a pretty low point and the symbiote comes along and then Enhances those negative thoughts and you can have an arc Kind of showing what a spider-man look like at his lowest point and then he bounces back From that that could be interesting. This is a straight thought of mine There aren't this peter listened to his auntie this peter does take responsibility Which directly causes amaze de always if this peter did not take responsibility And sent will him to vote to hell aunt may would have survived and all the villains would have died All the villains would have died even if they're not all that villainous Yeah, like it feels it's it's almost like aunt may is sitting here in the coal being like did you not listen to anything I said? So what was the lesson to be learned here and see that's it for me. It's like the right thing is Really hard. Yes, your parents should have taught you this a long time ago It's sad to me that it's just like what is the point here when it feels so obvious You just sort of sitting here like oh Because in the past movies while uncle ben died to prove his point now aunt may dies disproving it So so the point so you shouldn't be Responsible of your powerful is what you're saying You shouldn't be responsible if it means that someone dies and something, you know, which is such a So what happens if being irresponsible means someone dies?  I think that she's trying to highlight that as the reality of this film has now gotten itself into which makes no sense What but like that's not at all I guess she thinks that just doing the right thing means no one will die Like collateral is usually inevitable with these super powered conflicts. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take responsibility and to try to minimize the overall loss of life by Doing the right thing. Well, yeah, I mean Tony dying at the end of endgame. That's we should undo that then we don't want him to die Yeah, you made a mistake Yeah, what she is saying here. It implies that the the concept of self-sacrifice cannot work Because what if the life lost is your own?  Well, it's still a life being lost. So now so is can we not do that anymore? Hilariously makes her death a direct country that you can't always win That that this is the point. They're trying to say can't always have a clean win. That's kind of yeah, exactly Can't have everything Now aunt may dies disproving it which hilariously makes her death a direct contradiction of her own words Which in turn devalue the moral isn't this isn't this crazy like I don't it's not a contradiction It's uh, if it was a contradiction, you think that her last words would be oh, fuck. Well never mind then That that goddamn goblin.  That should be at that half. Fuck I just want to be like because I don't See if I can get the ripped No way home because the the fact that she's talking about this When it's it's all available in the scenes themselves because she's like you contradicted what you just said aunt may and it's like man If I remember that scene that's exactly where all of us get our um Our take from the movie on like that's exactly where we know all of this the point being made Oh, so you can draw it in uh other ways. It's just the Bizarre that we're at this point um Like she says must also come right? Yeah Yeah, it's actually closer to the comp. She actually says the quote closer to the comic than the rainy film does Um, yeah, he says this is all my fault. I should have just listened to strange and let him send them back He says no you did the right thing. They would have been killed. You did the right thing He says but it's not my responsibility Then she says oh what norman said my moral mission like because norman implies that the only reason Is being done is because of uh aunt may having tricked him into doing it and then um She says no you listen uh and does does the line Of course and a lot of it is implied in terms of um What he is supposed to take from it. I suppose but the fact that he says I should have listened to strange and she says no you did the right thing as she realizes she's dying I feel like the point has been made. Yeah, pretty clearly Yeah That peter has to learn here since if peter did act like a responsible buggy boy, she never would have died Oh, and i'm not done talking about this quote by the way Is there a problem with hearing the quote used for a million time in these movies to be honest? No, not really these words are a huge part of peter parker's story and without it His character and writing is incomplete by all accounts and I mean unless you want it to make it about something different You can uh get the line across or the message across without even using the line so You know don't try to restrict yourself too hard there. You'll be all right It doesn't even have to be the message any If you want to make a peter parker who's downright morally dubious or Villainous, I mean that's that's you can do that. You can tell that story. Yeah. Yeah, sure Not a post that intrinsically at all Yeah, you could you could do a story where like peter parker like retired because he killed mary jane with his radioactive sperm And he's really feeling guilty about it. No It's all kinds of different things you could do and I know about that one It's um venom can be mayor It's a real popular one And that is exactly the problem every hero has to have a belief system and that belief system every person will know I will Does a person have to have a belief system? I guess I don't have to have a system of beliefs Well, it feels weird right because I assume What you were gonna say intuitively was like they don't even that's not even a choice. They make they just have one don't they? um So yeah, even though you don't choose what you believe but if what you are believing and What your brain essentially accepts us through propositions, right if that's based off of a system Yeah, I guess it doesn't have to be generally you want it to be it's good that it is You don't want to just if you have a brain that just sort of is it accepts things Very inconsistently Then that's for instance being naive with because we've talked about that in this video If you're a naive person then your trust isn't based on any kind of system uh generally you want to You want to look at what people do you want to measure up odds you want to take their character into effect You want to weigh in what they might be trying to do that because there's things to go into it Well, well, that's what I'm saying. That's what you want to do But if you are naive and you're not doing those things then that would you want to have you Then that wouldn't be a system and that would be bad Of course, there's a system of a kind because no system is going to be perfect Especially when you're making these kinds of judgments But ultimately saying a hero has to have a belief system Uh I don't know if that's true or not Probably is but I wonder if she's appealing to what we would want to see typically as an audience We want them to want to see sure. Yeah, um, but even then I'm wondering like there's got to be characters that just They kind of just go with the flow. They don't have a spouse system And that could be interesting to watch right I think that's a character who just accidentally keeps saving people like technically that's a hero But he's not a hero with a really bully structure blood sport He's not far away Like he seems to go with the flow for a lot of it. It doesn't have a particular system But when the whole world is getting threatened by the giant starfish, he's like Oh, fine. Like I'll help, you know when it's like that could have gone several ways Um, unless she would she would argue that that is his system at that point Whatever he's deciding to do is indicative of a system Yeah, uh And it's a call it a system. That's not to say it's this cold calculated scientifically measured thing It's just more of a set of guidelines. Um, uh, but I don't know I it's it's something I'd have to think more about does a hero have to have a belief system I assume she's simply referring to the fact that he doesn't want to kill people and wants to help people And then like really simply, you know punish her will kill Etc like it just goes on with all the different examples Stem in the story is created by the most crucial moments in their lives for peter parker in the past movies That moment has always been uncle ben's death. He has a spider bite gave birth to a spire man But uncle ben's words combined with his death were the ones that birthed a hero in my opinion at least but no way home I don't know why you would Uh It's just like so groundwork before she makes her point in my opinion What births peter parker is a hero is uncle ben's death plus the line and i'm just you know like Okay I'm very curious what like why you needed to establish that before whatever you're about to say, but I guess we'll see Home does everything in its ability to underline the fact that spider man still has yet to learn that lesson Which creates a paradox since a paradox so when he says it's not my responsibility at that point in the film What he's referring to is specifically these multiversal creatures. It's not my responsibility to cure them It's unreal to me that she has actually boiled down Him saying I have power therefore the responsibility to help the people in this world And he's and that is apparently contradicted by him saying it's not my responsibility to cure psychopaths who are from a different dimension It feels like these are two different points and then may says No wrong you are still responsible for helping anybody where you can Because that's a pretty different scenario right Someone's in trouble because a criminal is trying to take their wallet and you help them out versus There is a multiversal crack in the universe. They're coming through and we need to put them back But beforehand you have a decision to do something more than that I don't even know what she's advocating for because this to me is what spider man stories typically are about They test that responsibility line in different ways Yeah, exactly. And like this is something that literally none of the spider men in this film have ever Faced before like this is this is a pretty colossal And events or yeah, there's another variable that people often like to just not consider instead take the character literally Don't you think that he's gonna say some stuff?   Let's go to a bar and just have some fun And you're like, okay, we go there. We end up getting like arrested because something crazy happens And then if in prison i'm like, we really shouldn't have gone out I wouldn't be surprised if you both just go, hey, I know. Yeah, but in reality, we all know Well, no, that's not the that's not the problem like that your decision to do that isn't the problem. That's just It's just this weird result. We got it was Yeah, the thing we did Presumably, yeah, nothing wrong in this scenario Presumably, it's from Fringe's fault and we have to Really reign in on your alcohol consumption in the future because it's starting to cause a lot of issues for a lot of people In storytelling you typically have a thing called a second act low point And what it entails is the hero pulling a little off the tracks and concluding maybe they were wrong about x y z And then they come through at the end and that's what that situation is Ifap is our weekly second act low point. Yeah These videos depress us. We have to build ourself back up off-screen so that we can come back next week and do it I'll go for again because we're naive and we never learned our last Ready to underline the fact that spider-man still has a lot of people fail to process a lot of the time And this is both in storytelling And just in real life in general is that when the emotions are still raw when you've just gone through something traumatic when you've When you're going through even like an unrelated circumstance you You say a lot of things that you don't actually mean you you say them Because they feel right in the moment. It's called emotional reasoning like you are in a state where Your emotions are very much guiding your actions, but then eventually You whether or not that takes a day or week an hour However long you reach a point of clarity where you can once again Express thoughts and feelings that are more consistent with your overall belief structure And I think that's something that a lot of people fail to take into account with these things To learn that lesson Which creates a paradox since the experience and the words that were meant to create him Never quite got through his skull right until now, which throws out the entire Good. What do you think a paradox is?  It's not just something you're aware of it something you're Totally useful too trilogy It's about is like you get told it and you even try to use it as like reasoning for what you're doing for your actions But he's not like ingrained it. There's loads of things to learn about the nature of it Yeah, you can learn about something on a very surface level. You can um, you can learn something in theory But then you know the whole point of spider-man a lot of the time is that he knows what lesson He should have learned from an initial tragedy, but he has to keep Going through different scenarios and different uh, you know levels of trauma in order to Really have that lesson sink in in ways that you know a singular event Probably can't do like you can learn a very specific version of a lesson But to really learn the finer nuances the finer Grain and texture of what it's meant to be You do have to it does take time like we as humans we process things Um, and we achieve new meaning or more refined meaning through uh, the collective sum of our experiences This is just how people work. So I don't know what uh, what what's so confusing about this Not even called like a seeming paradox. She's sorry can contradiction. She's called it a paradox. It's like Shit, man Tire course of his own character Not only this does not make sense from the character writing perspective But it completely ignores almost all of peter's story arcs in the previous movies. Take a look builds on all of them He's been forced in one direction this whole time which is take responsibility Help people good and it's always been good This is the first time it's resulted in something that he perceives to be bad Real bad. And what does that mean? Does it mean the line is worthless? It's like no Look at the first ever introductory scene of Spiderman in mcu and this entire emotional arc with aunt may has no impact Since one of these no impact. Jesus christ Oh The only has impact if he completely changes his entire moral course because someone he loved died I don't even know where to begin without preface with like no offense lady But like what you're saying could be learned as meme pointed out earlier.   Does she think he wouldn't? Like does she think he would conclude? Well, that's not worth it Like it's not a utilitarian arithmetic is you know, you know, uh, He would definitely sacrifice himself It's about you know, what you have the power to control versus what the innocent people do not It seems to me that she's concluded that if you have like a bigger loss of any kind of a loved one Like then whatever you were doing was obviously wrong and it's like, uh There's so many hypotheticals we could give her, you know Like the to see what she actually thinks Dare I call that view naive? Oh Peter says in mcu is the exact lesson We were meant to believe he's meant to learn in like one two three four five six Man, it's almost like you get in it. He learns all the aspects of it because it's a very complicated and long thing I'm pretty sure he's going to keep learning at least aspects of it in the next set of films too Yep. Yeah I don't see why we will stop all of this fresh faced Because this character is done. They have learned what they need to learn.  I would just be like Um, why why? Fortunately, we live in the world where they did Yeah, and And you might be like, well, what are you trying to say? And it's like so Why do you think we're looking for that to be challenged?   He is giving power to other people He's allowing the government to have some kind of hand in discussing all these things I thought he learned in iron man one that it's him. He controls it.  He looks later in the other films come a long way and um I only ever interpreted this As he's got a baseline and that probably came from uncle ben But what does he make of it and civil war?  He's like Saved a few cats from trees, but he's um he has yet to Go through the full grit of what it means to take on that responsibility and that's what these films are ultimately about He's like a big ball of putty and then the other films are just hammers coming into him over and over again And this one's fire So peter has been living and breathing this saying since literally the moment we met him Again like we can't do anything with this because she just doesn't know what this film's about She missed the thing Um, because genuinely if these films didn't even exist and we had someone in the call It was just talking about how it's always good to take responsibility Like when you have the power to do so unless it's going to cost you the life of a loved one We would all be like Really you think so like If your errant is going to die as a guarantee of you saving like a bus full of children You not do it And that's that's just the the thought experiment this film's having that's all But let's have a collective amnesia for the next two and a half hours because plot Even though me complaining about this quote might seem like a very nitpicky thing But in my defense, this is the driving force of spare man And the biggest moral message behind his character the same message this movie and they've managed to maintain it beautifully I think yeah works really really well. It's quite well written Completely cheap ends just because they really needed to squeeze in a badly written sappy arc Right before the third act of the film I disagree but it's okay that you have an opinion that's sucky. That's cute This lesson is too big of a deal for peter for it to be so comically overused and shrew horned and Comically overused. I don't think you understand that all of the heroes go through this all the time It's just presented in different ways Do you think that like when Iron man is dealing with whiplash, for example, there's no thought going through his head of like fuck I kind of created this guy Like it's it's what is my responsibility here Like what am I supposed to do with this and he kind of feels guilty about it a lot as well Iron man three eldritch killian.  Some of his best acting is honestly in these films. It's kind of weird. Um Do you remember his reaction when he realizes the peppers like close to death because of this weird infection? Um I have to imagine the part of his reaction in that moment is the fact that he knows that if she had never met him Uh, this would never be happening to her Um These are things that are coming up all the time for everybody They're just not as explicit because this is the focus for for spider man Yeah, well like um one of the things that I uh to use a non marvel example Like one of the things I really like about batman and why I never really gotten to Gotham the show as a concept is there's that question of Is batman creating Inadvertently the villains that um he fights because the level of craziness for Gotham Um You know criminals Kind of went through the roof Like the level of crazy went through the roof. Um Once batman showed up on the scene and there's that interesting Push and pull like escalation question there that you know, it's it's about is batman's How responsible is batman for those villains and that's a question that I think permeates a lot of superhero I mean is you know, what is you know that responsibility is such a It's a it's such a multifaceted concept.  You say that you got it Yeah, um in relation to like the nature of creating villains Uh versus their heroes because as you guys are all aware A lot of people were like I'm so sick and tired of bad guys being a result of iron man's effect on the world When you think to yourself like, all right. Yeah, let's bring in another like dark elves from Thor 2 That has nothing to do with iron man. Everyone loved them. They were great villains and It's like this really arbitrary almost appeal to a Intuitive position that a lot of people probably do think is right but have no basis for it It's like when you actually have them as a reaction to the heroes effects on the world That to me feels a lot more In line with like creating a through line for your actual story as opposed to By the way dark elves are coming Just like oh It's kind of Well, I guess it's uh to refer to like the trey park and matt stone writing rules having The villains be created by the heroes or at least the heroes presence in the world If it was much more like a but and therefore rather than And then the dark elves showed up and they were angry You know, it's just like and then they appeared Then the dark elves told spider-man With great power With great else great responsibility with great Of course and they could have been great I'm just saying like this weird assumption that the solution to having good villains Is to stop making them connect to iron man or something He's like what are you talking about that has nothing to do with whether or not they're gonna be good I think that only stems from a meta and frankly, it would be the meta of spider-man's more important in the Pop culture than iron man. So his villain shouldn't stem from iron man In any way.  I don't think that's happening. Yeah I imagine he'll join at this point.  Sony's off doing their own weird shit What's um, what's craven's like? dare I say original or motivation at the core I actually don't know much about craven compared to a lot of other spider-man villains Um, I think um, so I'm not uh, because I'm I mainly know craven from like the animated stuff But I think it might be similar in the comics.   That'd be cool. You introduced him. I want to see him a scorpion Yeah, and he's usually hated by spider-man specifically right because of that's what happened It was specifically spider-man nothing changes based on um the spell or anything. He'd still hate spider-man. Yeah Yeah, well, what's interesting about scorpion is that he's normally created by j jona jamison as like the real like legitimate superhero This is the scorpion he will not only take down the spider-man, but he will be everything spider-man should have been And then he turns out to be a massive Psychopath so there's an interesting dynamic there. You know, it's like it's again that push and pull It could be rhino except he's an actual rhino person instead of in a rhino machine And the rhino shape Is amazing. Yeah, but they were caused by tony stark. So that's better That's true. It still makes me laugh that I put them in the marketing material when they knew they knew the truth They still put them in the marketing material Marketing I was just thinking about how um Because this will just you know like we've been advocating for a while This is early on in spider-man's arc But that's hard for people to consume as an idea when it's like these are the main spider-man movies that are coming out right now They won't see it that way until we reach at least number four in the series But further on maybe than that It's so interesting to think about that. They're all you know, they're given subtitles these films They're not given numbers because when you go it's like a rule, right when you go past three it gets awkward Um a lot of the time for a lot of people. It just seems like oh gosh That's that's really getting long in the tooth, huh? um think about Iron man It's like it went one two three specifically because of the fact that they probably knew from early on that Robert tiny jr. Is like I ain't doing this forever. It'll be a limit. And so they're like, all right Meanwhile spider-man, I'm pretty sure they're aware It's like we are not only know that tom holland will be willing to keep going But we also don't want to imply to the audience at any point that it's long in the tooth That this thing is just going on and it's super active and fresh and wonderful all the time And that's how it feels like you can achieve that better the subtitles Funny that you say that because thaw thaw love and thunder is the first marvel film that is like the fourth You know, it's the it's the first fourth standalone Uh film in the series and it's like, yeah, it was called four four You're right. Like four is a scary number for a lot of people Four four four four should have called it the four I tend to forget that four has three movies Uh, well, it's the first one the first two. I only watched once Because people forget about the first two, you know, but like a lot of people forget about and and they especially forget about for the dark world Well, and yeah, like we're at the point We're in the future It could get to the point where like the equivalent of spider-man eight nine and ten I'm all made by let's just say for the sake of argument edgar right And they're his sort of trilogy of movies and they all regard a sort of a plot line that starts and ends with those three And a lot of people in the world might be like, wait, sorry How many movies were before this and you're like seven spider-man movies came before this You know And what i'm implying is like the fact that they're calling them the names that they have that it can make it feel like a fresh thing at any time was something that I think a lot of people haven't realized is um Like they these films were laced very quickly like it's only two years between them because a lot shorter than you would expect Yeah, we've got our origin trilogy is done now. So imagine what they'll do next In between the release of the dr. Strange films dr. Strange one came out before homecoming Multiverse came out after no way home. So he had a whole trilogy And I i'm willing to believe that they have settled with better to come back in the same way They have a tom holland where they're like, we're gonna be using you for a while because a lot of people think that they'll kill him I'm starting to think they'll probably hang on to him for a while But kill yeah, dr. Strange I don't know why they want to hang on to him They want to hang on to everybody for as long as I can I think until they find the right actress to replace him Yeah, because it might well be they weren't gonna keep wonder around until like wonder vision And stuff and then she became really popular and then they changed their mind. Maybe I'm still pretty convinced that she's marketing so hard for the crazy choices They made because she knows her future is solid with marvel I think yeah, maybe um Well, I guess you have to defend it right like if you're an actor in the film I think that's just that's a good motivation if they've told you we're gonna put you on a redemption arc And we're gonna make you a hero again.  There's even contracts relaying to it and she'd be like, all righty then I commit.  You don't have to be an avenger to be worthwhile like these are things that don't often I'm starting at the point. I'm like so humanity 101 you actually think a lot of things sometimes that aren't actually true 101 let me tell you how people work. This will be important for later The actual problem arises when we don't usually try to account We don't usually plan ahead for like multiversal villains to pop out of the woodwork I'm prepared. Um, yeah, I'm ready. We'll have to this movie man. I'm behind I got like my reality anchors everywhere. Like I'm ready. That was my takeaway from this film. Yeah I'm like, oh Never thought of that that way before the actual problem arises when not just the audience But peter parker himself has to not only hear but learn this lesson for millions time It's so incredible that she's decided that when someone says with great power comes great responsibility baked into that Automatically is the understanding from that person that if I die as a result of you taking responsibility That's okay. You really think that comes through Like this stuff takes a while to absorb It's not a simple it's it's kind of weird, isn't it's like arc complete. You're done.  You never make a mistake again.  Yeah I Think this quote is a great way to showcase the biggest problem in this movie Look, if no way home was the first one in the trilogy, this would make sense, but it isn't No, it wouldn't It would not make a lot of sense when it was the first film in the trilogy Imagine that would be your first spider-man adventure.  Yeah Six right civil war infinity war and game and the three spider-man film so six Yeah, six. Yeah, yeah, it's just gonna know how you regard like a full adventure Yeah Yeah, I think the problem that we're facing here is a lot of people can't kind of wrap their head Heads around the fact that this is just a more decompressed Maybe um Origin maybe it can help by relating to batman I think the next batman film is going to have him learning about what it means to be batman in Gotham again, and someone might be like you're gonna teach them that again And be like well, yeah, because what he's learned so far He decided that his motivation was a vengeance for the horrific injustice of what was done to his parents And that that can reflect into the hearts and souls of all of the criminals in Gotham to help Your Gotham it had a bad effect being that um It created some people who were inspired by him and are doing bad things Which is a really interesting test of his resolve and so now he's he's gonna add to it He's gonna alternate it a little bit and he's probably gonna do stuff in the next one It'll make him learn a bit more about what it means to be batman I'm pretty sure the three Nolan batmans are about what it means to be batman It's a question. Yeah, what it means to be batman or like what it means to be spider man That's a broad enough question that you can filter through a lot of different challenges Well, yeah, uh to relate then instead of because that's a bit more broad and people might be like Yeah, well, it is complicated to say what is batman versus what is with great power comes great responsibility I'd be like well, so what batman's working with is what does it mean to be a person who's going to fight crime like An inspiration to the city versus spider man who's like what does taking responsibility mean? Because that can't just be as simple as a literal interpretation that applies to every situation. It's like, of course not mm-hmm Don't like two different people will have two different interpretations of exactly how you're supposed to Do that and I think that's kind of the point home Homecoming is making that as far as Tony's concerned. He is someone who takes responsibility and yet he and peter disagree on how to approach the ferry so You know, you you have all kinds of things to think about Set go by the way, I hope that's what uh, Reeves trilogy is about if there is a trilogy to be had Like I think there's loads to talk about about what it means to be a good batman Yeah, this isn't a monolithic thing. There's a there's a dimension and uh depth to um You know, there's a lot of questions to be asked about how the right way to approach it and sometimes there isn't a clear cut right or wrong way and even What maybe the correct way is not necessarily the right way, you know, there's so much to break down there Goals the movie neglects its own predecessors and lessons which peter learned in them and almost Presses the reset button on his character and at the end of the day You end up with experiment who across every mcu movie starts and starts over learning the same set of moral No, it's it's actually a lot more complicated What it means to be great power comes great responsibility. He's learning it through different challenges. What that means because he's refining it Well, yeah, because when you say with great power comes great responsibility It can be hard to like you can learn that the first time of oh sometimes I shouldn't act sometimes I need I need to think about why i'm doing this It's like how does that lesson help you figure out whether or not you should potentially endangered, you know people that you love to try and save Uh villains like that you've learned something but it's not necessarily broadly applicable You have new challenges that will test Your principles Because it's not it's a broad principle It's it's a little bit hard to know how it's going to help you out in any given situation That's kind of the challenge.  Yes. You're like, well, yeah, of course save innocent person at the cost of a bad guy escaping a prison well Yeah Depends on the on the bad guy maybe and then some people are like, well, no just yes And then you got to go catch that bad guy And what does it mean great power comes great responsibility when your resolve is shaken by really traumatic events And you don't know if you have the capacity to help people See how you go from one extreme to the other you're eager to help to now you're scared to help It's like there's a lot of different ways that you can sort of filter through this uh this lesson Because we we do this with all of them. We did it with Iron Man Each of his films are just about the power of his weaponry Going to like bad things happening as a result of different just choices He makes about who should have access to them and who gets to decide where they go Yeah, the the idea that this lesson is just something you learn once and you're covered forever It's just instead of learning all the ways it can be applied very I don't it's just not how something this broad works I can't believe this isn't said about the ramy films then because if you guys remember What brings him back in spider-man 2 is hearing When he saved the person in the fiery building they said they lose someone And you know someone was still in there and they're gone.  He's learning He's learning about responsibility and power in the second spider-man movie. He learned that already in the first one Calm down Okay Geez for lessons which in actuality have been his entire driving force from the get-go Over and over and over. No his driving force of the core is he should help people if he has the power to do so You understand these circumstances challenge that with complications Like I just said with the prisoner example like these are not easy questions It's easy when it's like do you save the drowning baby?  You're like, whoa Why have you done that? No, I don't know what I'm supposed to do Don't you trolley problem me exactly Again and by now you might be thinking well, who cares if the writing in this movie is not great It's fun. Yeah, this is Well, look, I don't know Well, that's definitely gonna be people who would say like who cares about the writing. It's fun. Yeah, it's unfortunate How many of those people exist? Well, I guess it's just kind of funny because it's like I agree with the perspective of It does matter what the quality of the writing is regardless of how much fun somebody's having We just don't disagree on the quality. We don't agree on the quality of the writing in this film I suppose the irony is we do agree with her conclusion of the quality of the writing But we got completely different workings. Yep, that's true. Um, yeah And enjoyable and I love it and I'll say your honor exactly Okay, you made this far. So let's get to the real point of this video I'm just gonna mute this Um Oh the man Now I can put it back up again The actual point of this video is not me shaming anyone for liking enjoying or even loving this movie because I can't get behind that It's not my intention to shame anyone for enjoying it because I'm not crazy and I do understand the appeal And I'm definitely not going to pretend like I didn't cheer multiple times during it But I am going to shame everyone who's going to confuse a few scenes worth of personal joy for uh, Two and a half hour long masterfulness.  I don't disagree with her. I think that's fine No It's so weird because we're back to agreeing with her now because she's done with all the points It's like a whole round of weird, it was really awkward Yeah, we're gonna play a great school teacher here and go.  I'm surprised you got the conclusion, right? Honestly, you'd you'd have to apply yourself and then underline it twice Yeah apply yourself Practical for many obviously. Yes. Was it a painfully flawed movie? Absolutely. Does one excuse the other? Absolutely not Even by marvel standards Something tells me that in a few years most people won't remember no way home for its flawless plot or amazing dialogue Okay, nobody did not have a flawless plot And nobody says that about no way home now. I don't know anybody that said it has a flawless plot That's a lot of people are pretty upfront about that they recognize that there are gonna be problems without The fact there's a multiverse alone makes people go like we're in a It's like time travel, isn't it? It's just like uh-oh. This is a big variable Well, she's saying here I've cut her off because I want to say like what people should likely remember this for In the long time is just man. Was it neat to have the three spider-men together?  That's like down. That was cool. Hopefully with the more spider-man films that come out This is seen as like, ah, this is quite foundational And if you think about what happened in this one it informs blah blah blah It's kind of like how no way home made people realize. Oh, this was the origin trilogy Yes, it took until no way home for people to see where it was building and I ain't gotta let people get away with like their own revisionist history where they think it's revisionist history that that was John Watts' plan It clearly was you can see that in the films leading up to no way home It's weird for me because it's like even if John was was to be hit by a car today And we never hear from him ever again or confirm any of this I just feel like well it's evident from the three films. You can see it Well, and even if it wasn't his intention, that's what he created even if that wasn't but I I'm pretty sure it was. I even think it's in the names Homecoming yeah far from home and home representing representing like you're safe and understood childhood World yeah, and no way home is like it's over. There is no way home There's no way back to what you were. It's you've grown out of it now. It's done Yeah, you're you've got to push forward with the circumstances that you now find yourself in knowing that there is no way back It's um, it's actually pretty neat Yes every day we drift further from home The funny thing is I think she's going to use this as a criticism like people aren't going to say it has good plot Once time goes over because they'll realize like my criticism of this format is usually people won't even remember what happened In the film like multi-visit madness.  The big example would be Black Panther got like huge accolades But not only do I not really see people talk about it, but even when they do all it is is like Oh, yeah, Killmonger was pretty good But no appeal to anything like really specific like nobody really talks about specific moments in these films And I guarantee you a lot from Marvel films if you ask them What is Killmonger's origin like who are his parents guarantee you they won't know the answer to that Yeah, and it's um, it's kind of people remember the Dark Knight interrogation sequence, you know people remember I mean god damn like people remember in spider-man 2 right like um They remember uh the scenes between um between peter and uh and doc arc They remember uncle ben step in the first film. I mean, you know say what you will about those films overall But like that's and I guess that's the thing is I think that people will remember the big payoffs in no way home I think those multi-views amandas might have staying power with the um the spirit scene Maybe some people will be like I remember that that was great I guess I I kind of want something more than just like of course what I'm implying is it's Sam Raimi's flourishes might actually be able to make some people remember parts of it But the writing isn't going to be the reason Well, yeah, it'll be just do you remember what the story was about and and yeah And and to illustrate that writing alone can often be like everyone references the rooftop discussion between daredevil and punisher and that's There's no spectacle there. That's that's a discussion One of my favorite scenes in no way home is the three of them talking to each other just having a discussion about their history Yeah, and and a more climactic moment will probably they'll be remembered as probably the Discussion on the rooftop. No, I was going to say toby. It's the more spectacle related one Toby stopping the glider Yeah, I think that'll be remembered. I guess the problem is it's hard to make appeals to what will or will not be remembered other than just A kind of impression that you get Yeah, I am and I want to say like we're trying to be fair here Like I because it sounds like it's like oh, you're just gonna say people will remember the ones you think are good and I'm just like There are there are complications to how people remember things that you need impactful moments like tony Snapping his finger at the end of endgame will be remembered, but it's not particularly well done mechanically um Well, I think people remember that they had at the time and and then They retain that feeling. I think does have something to do with like what surrounds that material um I don't I don't know that anybody's gonna find anything like super meaningful and like multiverse and madness when you can't really appeal to Anything else that was in the film I was thinking about like why is terminated to is ending the thumbs up as t800's like going into the lava? Why is that so meaningful? It's like well the reason why is because of everything that was leading up to that moment It's the whole filming. Yeah that final moment This character essentially going on that arc and john going on the arc as well um It's it's all of those moments of those two characters interacting and learning from each other That makes that meaningful. It's not just the moment itself And I think a big problem with a lot of Marvel stuff lately has been that it hinges on like these big moments That kind of get carried a lot more by the acting than any of the writing supporting it Um, I don't feel that same way about no way home. I think that there's a lot of great supporting material Yeah And eras of uh of spider-man as well impressive and clue Yeah, um, I think the only thing you can as far as like memorability You have to I think something to look at is um When it comes to especially when it comes to the meaning of of um a given work Especially when it's so fresh. I guess the the main thing you can point to reference wise is how much meaning do you have to project onto something versus how much is um I guess implicit or explicit within the writing like how much of this, uh, you know how much can be Um brought brought in like we molly versus madness if someone does find something really meaningful with that film I imagine it would be a lot of projection of what they want to see but that's not going to be as universal as say a theme Or a character arc that can be definitively broken down But of course, that's not always universal I've had people unironically tell me that they Found civil war completely unmemorable and felt no compulsion to ever watch it again. And I'm just like, oh, well, okay Yeah, that's your prerogative, but um Yeah, it's it's an interesting one Few years most people won't remember no way home for its flawless plot or amazing dialogue creativity mind-blowing action scenes or character development In my opinion, it will most likely be remembered for scenes that people will be able to easily search up on youtube and watch all of it Under 15 minutes instead of going through two hours of plot full of holes the nonsensical elements. I don't agree I think people will really like the spider-man talking to each other quite a bit. And I think that I think that stuff will last I guess she's saying you could switch that up on youtube But like you do that with pretty much anything so anything though. I don't know what that doesn't apply to Especially if I know the context behind the payoff, I'll watch the payoff on youtube and it works Since stakes some terrible jokes underwhelming action overused cgi underwhelming action underwhelming action I don't know like she says that's the case Anything from that was like the most restrained fight too To like clarify. Yeah when I say like oh, well, I was like she's not given any argument So we can't do anything with that. She's like well you think that we don't bye. Bye Underwhelming action overused CGI if you take away anything under used CGI I think she had overused Dear I don't want it to be that no way home is a complete trash or a terrible movie But that we should stop interpreting just a few minutes of joy as a two hour long greatness Yes, I agree. Yeah, I wonder if that's an issue with this movie It's funny right like We agree with the point but we're just like disagree with everything else. I guess. Yeah Did you get here? How did you somehow arrive here? The biggest purpose is to treat itself and serve as a high budget context for a few nostalgic scenes written by people Who do their absolute best job at being the most mediocre Is going to be new stable for the films if they want to be baptized character stuff There's they did some really excellent character work. How is this the movie you're saying that about in phase four? Yeah, this is the one that like has things that legitimately are great about it Yeah This masterpiece is both by box office and the audience. We are in for experience. That's for What did she think of multivase madness? Honestly, what did she think of it? Did she hear or love it? Because seriously I'm curious after watching this video. I don't know. I don't know if she hated it or loved it Oh, well there you go Should have spent a bit more time focusing on the material and learning And paying attention to what it was trying to say perhaps She didn't even address it as a counter like the the point was that you can lose people when taking responsibility So it seems to me she just doesn't know about that She doesn't know it's a thing I just think um, I understand what the film was saying I guess it's uh, interesting because there's a lot of like those broad statements about uh, I guess that you could apply to other films I agree with and you know like the writing actually matters regardless of how much fun you had with it It's like, yeah, that's true You know films are more than just like one or two really cool scenes, but then you ignore everything else I totally agree with that but I it just feels like um Somewhere along the line Just like a misreading of the film but like a really big misreading of the film and you had references But it was like references that it felt like were ju