Hello everybody, if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always making us late is my co-host Tom. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Hello friends you know I Life happens we are indeed on Tom time tonight. So I just tuck in this is what this is what life is. Yeah Yeah, definitely This is Tom time and so I'm you know excited about that and The you know, we're not we're this a hotel show in case it's not incredibly obvious that I'm not in my normal place I'm very busy. It's been like a super long day for me. I have another very long one tomorrow So we're gonna keep a relatively short show today But of course we do have All the fun stuff for you We're gonna talk about who has the best lore in the mortal realms later But first up the new I do news flash. I have the best lore out there Sure, as is as is what everybody would say. Yes. Yes. I'm the I'm the problem. It's me. Hey, so Rumor engine like yeah, there's no standard rumor engines But yes, it's Christmas rumor engine and I've only kept I only grabbed one of them They've done six of them so far the first five were complete garbo So it doesn't matter like one of them is very obviously 40k Two or three of them are just completely nothing and it's impossible to see what they actually are But this one Tom this one today day six We were given a gift a glorious gift Okay Now Tom, do you know why we were given such a glorious gift today Tom? Because it's a ratty It's a it's a yes because it's both it's Nurgle, but it's also a rat hand and it's in the exact same position as a previous Skaven plague priest all hail the prediction of brand-new Skaven Skaven relaunch coming with the fourth edition next year I fully believe that's what we're looking at here Yes, you can see the Nurgle three circles in the color. Yeah Will that new existence is that is that the plan here? Yeah? Yeah, just keep wishing it I mean this is Tom. This is clearly proof That what we've been saying is true. I agree. This is this is rock solid proof I mean at this point you can just take me back one rumor engine. Come on We've been on this for a year now. Yeah, so it if we do call it that will be like an 18-month almost Two-year lead on calling. I just want to point that out. Sure. Sure Hey, look I'm believing it. So there you go indeed indeed So exciting We have some other less exciting news. Let's talk about the old world magic phase.  It's There's some stuff that's exactly what you would expect you still have level one two three four wizards They have bonuses equal to their level like they always have and you know You pay points to level them up and so on and so forth So, you know a lot of it is exactly what you think You know double ones as a miscast to the then you roll in the miscast table Double sixes is overwhelming power and you autocast it and all that kind of thing You know, I do think that what's interesting about the way they've chosen to do magic I mean, this is this is actually a big deviation and so I'll give them credit here We're credits do for being willing to explore new stuff is They've brought magic out of a singular phase and brought it into Every phase so it like their base basically there's six different types of spells enchantments and hexes and missiles and so on Yeah, and then each one of those is tied to a particular phase, right? So your enchantments and hexes happen in the hero phase and so on and there's movement phase shooting and combat so You know, it's an interesting concept. I'm not against it. It looked like for the most part It was basically what you would expect The magic base it looked like in there. We didn't really see enough of the spells They gave a little bit of the spells like they gave three different sort of sample spells nailsing fine But I mean, you know the key with magic lures Historically was that all that you needed was sort of one busted thing and then that was what everybody sort of went to, right? If you had the option to go to it Um It's interesting Yeah, I like the change what I would say is What I would say is this I do appreciate how they Like it solves some of the problems Right, like the hero phase teleport a or the like the teleport in the hero phase But then having to put restrictions on the movement phase and yada yada yada, right? Like sure if you just have a certain type of spell that Transports you and it's always in the movement phase then it solves the movement problem.  Yeah That's what I was I was actually working on adjusting settings when I started talking and so that I got distracted um Yeah, so I um, that's I don't know is the answer. Um, I think that it could be positive is what I would say Yeah, I mean with magic the devil is always in the details Okay, that's the reality of the history of warhammer. Um, right, right? And so, you know, I'll be interested to see as things go on I commend the big change here. I don't The the whole level of wizards and bonuses to cast It becomes very very very swingy when you're dealing with plus one to plus four on a 2d6 bell curve That's a huge difference You know the difference between plus one and plus four is mathematically insane uh from it goes from like a 10 increase to a uh, or like a 10 bonus chance to cast swings to sort of a 95 chance to be successful, right? So it's or or or bigger 98 and a half um, so like it's It's pretty wild. Um, what exactly that that means and then and then obviously having your your enemy have the same thing So it kind of led to a previous arms race Like one of the nice parts about sapping the the level bonus out of the thing when we went to aos Was it stopped the arms race of like, oh, I have to have my level four wizard or whatever Um, the only the thing that caught my eye was your unbind range is 18 inches Which is pretty close And yeah, if you're if you're a level one or two and then 24 inches if you're level three or four So they actually have different Unbind ranges, which was interesting because that means like a master wizard can cast on a baby wizard Without being the chance to be unbound, but it's not true in reverse Um, yeah, so I don't hate it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what to think about that.  I've always hated magic in war. I think it's like the stupidest part of warhammer Like I like magic and stuff don't get me wrong. Um Yeah, and dnd as uh fun fact fun facts everybody I proposed a magic show tonight and Vince is like not all we're not doing that Yeah, one is too complicated for a hotel show two. I was like, I don't want to talk about something I hate for an hour and a half, you know, like just i'm not gonna do it. It was magic stupid Um So at any rate, yeah, I'll be interested to see where it keeps going. That's what it comes down to So the old world uh continues to be interesting tentatively interesting. There you go Sure, um So then let's talk about the miniature of the year voting is up. Yep You know how hard it is to vote for a model When it's just a list of names, I know like there's no pictures like it's it's so counterintuitive like I went to vote and I was like Something's missing here. Maybe pictures of all the things we're supposed to be voting for It just shocks me they've never done it. It's always just been a big list of names Like I understand they're including everything for the year And like everything and and really you look at the list and you're like my god They make a lot of models, right? That's the first thing you think is like Jesus That's a lot of models You don't even realize how many are actually being made every year How many new designs until you look at them all gathered in a list and you realize just how incredible the design team the studio team is That's just turning out quality stuff but Ultimately the fact they can't make a page where they just pull in the pictures and have you Select based on that is so wild to me like they can't make a visual photo gallery It's crazy It's just as a model company. Mm-hmm. They have all the photos. It's not like they're hauling the models out and taking photos Sure, right, right, right, right. This is a web design issue. This is a webflow issue. This is not a uh I guess a time issue. I don't think they give people enough time to work on it That's problem because it would take a it would take a slightly more time Um, just to like locate all the photo files and everything like that, right? They are going to be dispersed You know, there's a format page that does exactly that Called their web store. I understand I understand I know and they could just you know, they could like you could click the button instead of adding it to cart Yeah vote for this model Yeah, so, I mean, you know go vote and uh, we can all be excited about whatever 40k model wins this year I assume it'll be angry. So It's always a 40k model. But Benz, what did you what have you voted? No, I got no Hmm, do you know what you're gonna vote for? Uh, I looked over the list. Um, I'm not sure yet. Like obviously I'm gonna vote for an aos model Um, it's probably down to uh, there there's a few that I liked But I think mine would all be off picks that don't matter.  I think it's amazing and I really wanted it I think the model's good. I'm just not sure it's actually my favorite Model the year like legitimately. Um, it kind of doesn't have a great golden angle For viewing it. It's a beautiful model. It's wonderful. I love it. Please don't get me wrong I'm just not sure it's actually my true favorite of the year But it'd be the easy fall back pick like big pig forever, you know Uh, I was torn between Talia and Ionis and I think I settled on Ionis. I think I think he's the right answer I get that With just with the dragon like the movement and just everything like just everything about it is evocative and interesting and engaging Yeah, no, that's fair. I like honestly, I think my pick might be the um city's free guild marshal on horse You know i'm talking about. He's really good. Yeah, I just very much really like he's Had a wonderful pose the the way the horse is sitting there the way the wind is moving through the model Like it feels so alive and in the world like I mean, I understand it's not the most flashy exciting when like Talia is clearly incredible and all of that Ionis is incredible. Bill Thanos is incredible.  Yeah, it's just perfect, right?  Yeah You eat it and you're like, man, this is really good, right? This is just it's like a cornbread muffin The perfect cornbread muffin. The perfect cornbread muffin. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, it's nothing complicated about it, right? It's just delicious Um, and that's kind of that model for me. Like I just I I love its simplicity I love its beauty. I love how much it feels like it's sitting in the actual world It's supposed to live in so like that's what I mean when I say I was looking at that one And I was like if I vote for this I'm just throwing my vote away But I might want to just as a protest vote because it's such a cool model and I liked it No, it is it is it is a beautiful model. Yeah, I mean I don't disagree with that at all Um, yeah, so there you go. Um All right, cool. I think that's all our news, right? Yeah, yeah All right, what you got from pick of the week tom, what do you want to share with everybody? Um, I'm gonna be a little bit selfish this week. Um, I put up a thread on twitter um evoking folks to to Put up your favorite kind of hobby essential whether it be like a tool or brush or lights that you think would be a Wonderful Christmas gift. Yep, and uh, I'm gonna invite everybody to go in to put their favorite thing Right, um out there like I've already seen uh Old town throwdowns, uh, tom's, uh Wild stick and like he's not wrong. The wild stick is a delightful gift like it's a wonderful tool Little pendrel exactly and I love mine like truly Like all the time it is a constantly used tool And I I've been being like asked to make a list for Christmas for myself And I was like I have no idea how to do this And so it dawned on me that like hey, maybe I'll just solicit this from the community And other people are probably in the similar position that I am right there They might be looking for gifts and recommendations and we don't know what we don't know right And so it's kind of an invitation for people to share, you know, their favorite stuff for the hobby I love that.  What's not trash? um, and I'm I'm pretty hopeful because I'm actually I'm actually I have a new light right now that I got that I know is not available yet But will be available soon and I'm going to tell you right now. Tom. It is by far my favorite light I have ever used really incredible. Yes. It is so good It creates a perfect beautiful wonderful full halo of just light all over your desk and like it's it's I love I love everything I'm hearing. Yeah, it's really really really really really really good and um So I'm testing it out right now But I mean there's I won't say what it is because I don't know what I'm supposed to talk about it um but Whenever I am supposed to talk about it I'm going to talk about it a lot because I think I'll do I'll do a full review about lighting in general Because I think it's like legitimately a hobby light that would suit basically everyone. So Yeah more to come on that. Um Yeah, good pick uh mine since we're not doing our flesh eater courts review this week I'm sorry people who are hoping for that but again hotel show makes it I am so sad I want you all to know that like I was pushing hard because Come back and I've been I've been Tom if you want we can do four people That would no we can't first of all that would be week four of me on the show It'd be like like I was here every week it'd be insane. It would be insane. Um, but but you know more importantly Like four is just too many and that's fine. What I'll say is this you all will have fun and you're right folks The fec book is delightful and amazing. It'll be great. Yeah, I'm very much looking forward to it I think we like short review. I think we finally got there It feels good, but not crazy. It's my it's my short answer. Yeah, I would agree with that So I've built a bunch of different lists. That's what I'll say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I played a little practice game and had like legitimate fun playing it. So yeah Um, anyways, but but like I said, we'll do the full fec fec show next week flesh eater courts Um, but if you're thirsty for that flesh eater courts knowledge Then why not check out stewart the iron guttsman's review of it. It is linked down below in the description stewart is a Paramount hero in our community and should be and did a really great review So, yeah, it should be he should be heated for he shares wisdom. So check that out LinkedIn on the description. All right Uh, I'm obviously not gonna be able to share any hobby time, but tom have you have you continued working? How goes the hobby? Oof. Um, yeah, I I started a model scheme. Um, that just didn't work Like I started painting my claws of karnak and I was like set on a couple colors and went in to make it work And it did not work. It did not work. It just totally did not work And like and I got it from multiple people and they were just like nope. Sorry man And so um, and I refused to compliment the colors with the colors that I'm supposed to compliment them with right and so Like I wasn't gonna do that. And so it meant that I had to go back to To square one. So I'm probably gonna have a very boring norming normal looking corn army of red Man, if you want, I'm happy to brainstorm with you. We can spice it up. There's plenty of ideas You don't have to go. No, it's probably gonna be boring. It's probably gonna be boring. So we'll see That's fine. You don't have to be boring But tom, let me share a similar story with you. You ready? Because this is proof that no matter where you are In the hobby, this is gonna happen. Okay So for me, I'm working on a competition piece And I got I got it to like a pretty good place Okay Recorded a video out of it happy with the video stuff like that And then but but as I looked at it, you know, it's on my desk Like I'm trying to really take time with this, right? So I just work on it a couple hours each day a couple hours each day a couple hours each day the whole belief that like It's not about I'm not trying to grind it out. I'm trying to just keep working on it, right?  Yep, and As I was working on it and looking at the other things I kept thinking to myself Something's wrong This doesn't work Like and I couldn't put my finger on it. I was like something just isn't right here Okay And so I I hit up a couple of other people And was like, please tell me what's wrong with this. I can't see it Right, I've been working on this thing for hours a day for three weeks four weeks I'm like that, right? And the problem is is that I mean intermittently like I worked on other projects in there and painted other things in there But sure, but it's always been on the desk And I'm like, I just can't see it and sure enough they were like well this this this this Right And I'm like, oh, yeah, that's it like immediately they saw what I couldn't and I had to go back and like repaint over a whole section because the sort of The tones I had chosen weren't correct Like I went to warm when it needed to be colder and he was like Long story all I might actually make a video out of this because I think it might be an interesting journey of just like actually showing their their chat of like This is the feedback I got and why they're right and why I was wrong and why and what that means and that meant I just Just blanked Parts of the model I had spent 30 40 hours painting right and just literally took a base coat color and just was like Slap it over the top. That's all gone. Be rid of that work right And had to start over and it's funny too because now Where I am with it. I'm way happier Like I did manage to figure out the the the new sort of recipes new colors the new composition Whatever you want to say They got me to a better place and I'm like, oh, thank god I redid that Because that was trash before comparatively um, so sometimes it's just You've got an idea in your head of how it's going to work And when you're doing the model it just doesn't That's what happens. Yep. Yep. I mean that's exactly what happened with me Is that like I went through a scheme. I had a picture for what this was going to look like and Like it was going to push me into Uh complimentary colors that I didn't want to go into. Um, and so Like I just I pulled the plug on it. Yep. So as as I mentioned in the chat It was uh, it was a strong, uh strong teal edging on turquoise Um, and I refused to go into purple and pink Um, and so at that point like uh, like I wanted to be in or in the reds You know, I just wasn't able to square that circle, you know with a dark flesh tone Which obviously complicated complicated it as well. Sure. Because you already have orange tones in that pretty heavily. Yeah Yep. Yep so It happens it does and that's fine. You know, that's that's what it is Sometimes you just got to take the time to be like, okay Cool, I guess we restart over then and there's nothing wrong with that. It's it's okay It's all right to have that on the journey um Somebody asked earlier in the chat by the way, uh for like a magnifier headset I know that was another thing that came up in your chat, uh, or in your in your your series tweets And honestly, my answer is I just bought like a gp one off amazon that has different lens Magnifications you can use That's it. It's a really nothing special It gets you there Like you just want one that has at least a 3x magnification thingy and then I actually wear mine with my glasses So I have to put it like on my face to where its little clippy thing is here and then the The lens is in front and then I'm holding the model like right here right So that's kind of How I have to to work there um, yep But yeah, that's it just some cheapy thing off amazon. I think I I think I might have it linked in my hobby supplies, but if not, I'll I'll throw one down there after the show um All right, cool Tom Shall we move to the Formal segment of the show there the main topic Sure. All right, let's do it. Here we go Let me go ahead and minimize our beautiful recast right here Who's got it the best lore? That's the question. Who's got it? Yeah, baby. They got it Um, well, it definitely ain't these people in the picture. I just happen to like this picture The sun's a bad month Um, but before we get into the specifics I think it's important that we talk about What our criteria are going to be here, Tom? Okay, okay So when I think best lore, here's how I think about it. You tell me if this aligns with your expectations Okay, okay one um, the overall story is cool, right like overall Just it's a neat cool fun interesting compelling story like the broad sweep of the thing Okay Two there's interesting characters doing interesting things somewhere in the war All right, and we're talking about aos specifically aos specifically. Yeah, correct. Okay okay Like there's somebody who you can identify or identify with Doing something and by the way people do not need to be humans for you to identify with them I really hate this call this whole thing from like early aos of like, where's the farmers? I don't identify with farmers. Okay Like that means nothing I I've identified in war with superman comics than I have with like batman comics Okay, and I'm pretty sure one of them is quite human and one of them is not Right. It's about what the character is going through emotionally Doesn't matter how godlike they are if they can like bench press a small moon It's really irrelevant if they have emotional trials and tribulations that you can relate to Right. Yep um so the So that's another one three Okay is Do they have like enough Things going on In the details. So this could be in like novels or the stories or the expansion books or whatever Where they're like a functional part of the world doing interesting things Okay, like are they as a faction involved focused on Doesn't it be a lot but like to some degree where it's like clear that they're written into the broader Sweep and lore of the world and so hence are a compelling part of it, right? They're not just like and also starring that shows up for seven seconds to to just be Like a spoiler in some random story for no actual reason you with me Okay. Yep. I I already have factions like that in mind. Sure. Sure go on. Okay That's really my criteria like I'm not evaluating based on you have to read every novel or stuff like that god knows I haven't Okay But I think it's really those three things And it's not about necessarily does it get captured in the models? Although that could be a part of I suppose as well Like how much is the lore expressed through the the individual models and whatnot? I think that's kind of a separate story um Really to me it's just those three things is the overall cool Are there specific people doing specific things and are they functionally? active in some way in the world doing as as a faction are they part of the The tapestry in a meaningful way Okay, can I Say something can I open like I accept all those terms? Okay. Can I open with a very strong statement? Yeah, sure We can basically throw out all of chaos We can basically throw out all of chaos. Well, I have some specifics I've got some other I've got some slides here Okay, okay where I've put sort of who I think is the best to just to let you bounce off it and foster some discussion Sure, then I also made a slide for the decent Okay, so this is like what I would call average to above average like they're getting a three on their annual review You understand what I'm saying? Sure Okay, yeah Like the the the best slide they're getting fours and fives doesn't mean they're all equal But it all means like they're they're getting the fours and fives on the bell curve Okay, well, I'm gonna open. I'm open and strong just setting my terms in general Chaos is Has done almost nothing meaningful Milding into a os. Wow Like it is the same like sure that's called maggotkin now But like there's nothing really interesting moving from fantasy into a os in any of the factions Sure Okay, like they have none of them have meaningfully changed But go ahead cast go on these are the tom takes I watch for yeah, okay. Good. It's a bold statement Here's what I'll say. Well, let's let's I think I mean, am I wrong has anything I disagree with you wait, but my guess is in a way that isn't what you mean Okay, okay, let me go to the next let's go to the slide. Here we go. We're just gonna start here The good Okay, so these are fours and fives on their annual review doesn't mean they're all equal Okay, I think we can we can talk about out of this. What's the best? We're gonna but I want to leave that to the end here. We're just doing our candidates. Yeah Okay All right So the exception to me in the good is first in the chaos is first off Skaven Now and that the reason I said this is because when you said chaos my guess is you meant the four Gods and maybe s2d I mean like I don't I it does not me feel to me that chaos is meaningfully different than it was in the old Yeah, I understand like maybe maybe they have a pocket. Are you counting maybe to have a pocket dimension? Yeah, I am that's what I'm saying like they again, maybe Skaven have a pocket dimension now in the war that they can like Burrow into other realms, right? But but their role like nothing is really meaningfully developed for them as a story as a group as a like nothing within the clan structures None of it is interesting Like it's all literally just an import for more hammer fantasy battles Like think about where we were in the end times sure and what has meaningfully changed from Skaven Like literally all the model like and it's not just tied to models, but I mean that's indicative as well Like it's all the same My answer to that is Skaven have been frequently Like so let's go through the criteria is the overall theme of being cool, right? I didn't have in there as a criteria It had to have meaningfully changed in some way since the old world like If the themes and stories and activities that they were taking in the old world are still interesting and persuasive for them to do In the new world in in age sigma, then I think that's fine And I think Skaven or could be fine. I'm not going to automatically say it's okay But I think in if that isn't necessarily a disqualifier. How about that? It's necessary. It's it isn't suddenly disqualified Here's what I'll say Skaven are to me When we talk about criteria number one is the overall theming and and kind of Vibes and story of the army cool one of the coolest Okay It's the standard it's it is the faction that that was like the unique thing from the old world, right? It was sort of this thing everybody in war hammer a lot of people belong gone to It has this like the crazy clan structure that it has Um, it has this very like cutthroat ridiculous culture of everybody scrabling and killing each other to get to the top Um, it also ends up being a spoiler So like the sorry part two question number two is are there interesting characters doing interesting things and like? Yes, is the answer Thankful is an interesting character. He does do interesting things in the world like he's literally doing the exact same things That he was doing in the old world. I don't nothing has changed. I don't disagree with that. Okay. I don't I really don't you're right Okay, he like they have not meaningfully changed their behavior in between the old world and aos You're you're not wrong. I cannot push back like let me do this by contrast Let me do this by contrast. So great a great picture of this is fec Okay, fec for me is truly the like the poster child Of reimagining and reinvention It went from like a nasferatu vampire like weird like clinger, right of soublight To a well realized identity in of itself And it was tied into a new kind kind of like lore anchoring, right? And like and that was actually really never realized Before we got their throne and before we got their endless spells, right? It wasn't in any of the models But they but they looked at what the range that they had and said what is this? What is this? What is this at aos and made this super compelling narrative, right? That just draws you in with literally almost no new models Um, basically the same amount of models that skaven had and so this is like this is the two examples I would say like skaven may be passable like they were for me would be like a three Right, but like fec truly is a rock star five like they are interesting and dynamic and Just a fascinating faction. Well, let's just get the obvious out of the way I mean fec's on my the good list. I don't think many of us are sending these boys home with anything less than a top score We all know it's amazing. We all know lore wise. It's a poster child for like how to tell a compelling story By the way, this would have failed the second test up until recently Of like having individual characters doing interesting things, but actually now that has changed You've got a lot of interesting things going on actually in the skaven with Gerald the or whatever his name is the the gerallion You know I'm talking about the herald from the first book who was like a Interesting little compelling dude going around saving people. You've got the summer king getting active, you know usher on here Obviously who's pictured But there's been rumors of usher on from the first book. I understand, but he wasn't actually we've known that something is coming Yeah, sure sure sure. Yeah But like now as of recently I think we finally closed the loop not just because of the new models But we actually told the the completion of the story not just the before they would have been like sale They would have been passed with flying colors on number one of my criteria, but they would have failed horribly on number two and three Because they were basically completely unimpactful in the world to the larger story and they had no interesting characters doing anything If we have done this a year ago Okay, uh, but I would still say that they were still a spoiler fraction within death Like they were the thing that broke the death mold in what right because they were the thing in what The realm gate was the realm gate was the worst Like they were the faction that like didn't go along with the gashes like edifice of of Like his monolithic. Yeah usher on rebel himself initially a long long long time ago. Yes in the age of myth Right and and so like and that's been like and so they were the most interesting of the death factions Right because they weren't just part of the standard hierarchy And that was even before we even had a model or like or an image wanted them to be that way But that's like saying, you know, rome is the most interesting lore today Because 2,000 years ago they conquered the Mediterranean tom. They haven't been too active for a while Okay, like indeed indeed but and yet everybody's obsessed they're they're not winning a modern narrative contest. Okay And so that's my point But either way it doesn't matter fec certainly ticks all three boxes now regardless of what it was in the past they're They're in there's no question. They're the easy. They're the easy slam dunk I agree. I agree with that. I agree with that. Okay So we'll couple swing back to scaven in a minute because that was what got us on this But let's let's hit some other ones here. So other candidates I've put here on the good. Let me go to my number two Okay, because I don't think change is actually a compelling standard to go by I think it can be an interesting thing in their favor like what you pointed out there Is it's not that the change itself is good It's that they did something interesting with the faction and the lore That made a compelling within the setting But if it's already good if it's already a compelling story then yeah, okay, they can act the same right if it was already great like you can take Okay, do you like the movie clueless tom? Uh, it's fine. I like the movie clueless, but you can pick your thing This has been redone Like shakespearean stories get redone and reset in the modern world often They don't change the story 10 things. I think 10 things.   Okay. Let's pick that one. Great. We can pick whatever you want, right? multiples of these Whatever bas lerman's romeo and julia. Like I don't care, you know, I mean sure they Like these aren't fundamentally changing the story It's the same story same characters doing the same actions. It's just changing the setting But it's still a compelling story because it was a compelling story Sure, right. Okay. Anyways all right Seraphon my number two. Okay um I I think seraphon absolutely ticks these boxes. Let me let me sell you here for a moment one The initial lore for seraphon was wild Like wild they took as big a swing with the initial Lore of seraphon as they did with fec, right? When they were like, oh the only thing that's alive is like one immortal undead frog on a spaceship And he just remembered the rest of everything else's memory into existence right like Whoa And you know, they're just they're they're born of like star energy and then he forms these dreams that he has In his celestial demons. Yeah into this. They're celestial. They're weird celestial demons that are they're sort of these Creations that he melds from imagination into reality, right in stardust in stardust. Yeah, exactly And then as then people were like, whoa step too far, right with every sea everybody was immediately on board and with with seraphon Everybody was like, no, I want real physical lizards, right? Okay So then they were like, all right And then they were like, yeah, but also once he remembered them Then they started going off and forming spawning pools and now there's actual fizz and those gave birth to like physical Lizards from the spawning pools, right? We like he landed some spaceships and made real lizards And now there's two varieties of them running around. There's the coalesce the real ones who, you know, live in swamps and occupy come out of spawning pits and Hunt in in deep dark woods and are, you know, cannibalistic lizard creatures Those are real And then also they're still remembering back things and they're still using that lore like in the most recent Uh broken realms or whatever or whatever, but wait, wait, what's now on right now? Dawnbringers, dawnbringers, sorry. The most recent dawnbringers Croak does this again. He's just like, okay, hold on. We need an army. Got him All right like they're still doing that and I thought that I think that's just really fascinating Um, that they that they have this crazy race that's just dinosaurs riding dinosaurs Which is already wild enough shooting laser guns driving around spaceships Like this is all truth. Tell me the lie No, no, you're right. Okay. It's all it's all true. Everything except it's true. It's all true all of it. Yeah, exactly And then also they're just like some of them are real savage lizards and some of them are ultra intelligent beyond imagination Uh, space fairs that remember man through their their remember bury their friends into existence like that is crazy, man and It's very aos. Let me say that and Then do you have test number two is do you have interesting characters doing interesting stuff and absolutely is the answer there? You know croak has been a major player in like basically every story arc as have some other serif on characters Okay And he still is as I mentioned, he just remembered normie into existence trying to kill What's his name crag knows And Number three are they impactful to the overall narrative and once again the answer there is yeah like a thousand percent Yes, like in every one of the major story arcs serif on have shown up as sort of a major faction That is their assisting order or doing something big or fighting in big battles and getting involved in the broader sweeping narrative in some way They've saved cities like from utter ruination and destruction. Yeah, so like Yeah, they're just they they pass all the tests Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I I don't think that Let me say it this way. I don't rate the need For them to be impactful in the story Like that's not something that I require in order for them to be like Like To talk about the best lore of an army, right? Like before peace to me like yes, I think they need to have characters doing things And I agree with like I agree with some of the other criteria But I don't like I don't I don't need them to be major players The reason I like them being major players Or at least players major doesn't it doesn't even be major but players where they're impactful in the world Is because usually the there's a reasoning for this And my reasoning is thusly What usually defines the the character of an army what usually sort of reveals its true self is not through just hearing about it in the void But in watching it interact with the world and with the other factions Okay In bouncing up against the other factions in having and in in being involved in conflicts whether physical or sort of ideological Right is truth about their own self and story and narrative revealed Right Um, and and I think that that's really important because then it's not just the story that's told about them But the story that they they are that they live that they do with through the through the Their actions in the world right And so that's why I think it's a meaningful criteria Okay Um, but you know, that's why I also rated it number three. I think it is the Like those were in a work of importance, right? Um, but I think it's there All right, let's talk about a couple others here Let's just jump down to the other chaos faction. I threw in up here pop a nergal Okay, how I mean I understand like I already know we're gonna go with this with the realm of life and them having a very real like presence and like a very compelling narrative and um I hear that But how can you choose nergal over slanash? Like if any chaos faction actually had a really interesting compelling narrative It was the reimagining slanash as that of one that is chained Right and in reorienting the entire motivation of the faction to be this interesting compelling Hunt in search for freedom and pretenders and and all of the things that that have have branched up in the midst of that Like yes, I understand that nergal has had a lot of development with the in the books and stuff like that Right, but to me like slanash seems way more compelling Especially with relationship to the various elf factions and how those have come into being in yadda yadda Yeah, um I thought a lot about slanash when I was putting this together. Okay My short answer is because I just think nergal is actually a better story And what I mean by that is Going to my criteria Obviously nergal has a cool overarching story many of the cast gods do if that was the only test then they'd kind of all Be up here, right? Most of them have good pitches. They get they got a good elevator pitch You know, they're concise. They're compelling and that's because whenever they created these goofball ideas for chaos they did accidentally or or you know, sort of whether it was accident or genius, I can't say But they did strike upon fairly compelling concepts for the sort of forces of chaos and what they represent and are And the sort of weaknesses of humanity, you know, they don't align specifically to any other Concept of of previous failings like that, you know, they're not the seven deadly sins They're not this that the other thing but there's something compelling about them And what they represent the sort of carnal Primal fears Yeah I think nergal has Sort of the most Compelling of all of them because it is this weird mix of joy and exaltation and also misery Um and suffering and I think that that cacophony is Well realized in their story um So that would be my my thing on the first one like they're they they are interesting because They are they have comical characters in their ranks.  But but ultimately it's horrendous, right? It's a completely horrific thing they represent I mean, there are a few things if the the last years have taught us that there's few things we fear more in the universe Than than rampant disease right To remind us all of our fragility um, you know, I've said Before that that you know sort of Nurgle is one of the few that kind of really really carries into the modern world is like a never-present fear And so I think that's there and number two Nurgle certainly has characters doing things. I mean let's like that's they they show up all over the place doing a ton of things And they're they're highly pivotal in the story as you mentioned like the realm of life and their interplay with A lauriel and everything like that But you also have what's his name for gillias or whatever like the guy who the the early strong cast story where he You know sort of is trying to kill lauriel and then eventually gets redeemed and becomes uh storm cast hero like there's That guy was a nurgle character for a long time and he's very sort of fascinating That journey that he goes on like that's quite a hero's Journey quite a redemption arc, you know um And so I I think that that's what like they've just chosen to do a lot of interesting things with nurgle It sits very well into the AOS story they've used nurgle a lot even in even in Periods of time when chaos weren't wasn't at sort of the apex of storytelling You know when death was at the apex they were often fighting nurgle in the current story There's often people are often fighting nurgle right like they're just always involved heavily in the story because I think that they're that sort of yin yang and the wheel and everything that they have about them It really sits them in a story in a way where you can picture them always being around always being a threat always being present Even when they're dumb little plague bearers aren't hopping directly into your face In a way that like corn just can't Right, right, right corn doesn't represent the same sort of like existential threat To life. It's it's exactly what it says on the tin. It's a bunch of brawling lunatics coming over the horizon, you know um Whereas nurgle you can like go a whole book and basically see no nurgle characters and yet still have nurgle be incredibly impactful On what's going on in the world at that moment as many city's books and things like that have shown, right? so I think that that's what brings them up for me.  No, I mean like I don't think I think that's not gonna happen, but I think they're good So that's my defensive nurgle For what it's worth Yeah, I mean if you're going to argue that way I mean, I would say the same about slanash like if there is like if there are any Any from chaos that should be on this page. I would argue it would be slanash and possibly nurgle And the only reason why I say slanash is that Like the lore and of slanash has literally birth three different armies Sure Right like like it has truly spawned out Three aos armies one imagining of a current army And then the the whole scale like from new cloth creation of two others Yeah, because of what slanash is and how slanash has impacted and shaped the world and like the realm gate wars and the everything, right? the all points like a lot of like I you know, like I think about Like even the entry of like the oc arc into the end of the story Uh Yeah, I that was pressing because archion was in the process of almost freeing slanash Sure, right like that was the Like that like and so I would argue that slash has continually had a presence In the story far outsized for what slanash is actually doing which is just being Chained in between the space between worlds Yeah, I guess I mean, I don't know man It's slanash has seemed like they had one good idea and then they just never did anything else with it That's the issue like I don't disagree with any of your points about you know, sort of them being able to to bring dock I mean the lumeneth and IDK all to bear out of the sort of conception of how slanash Changed or didn't change the elven souls they recovered And that's right like it just that isn't slanash doing anything That's like a happenstance of the story. They're telling with elves like I would credit that to IDK story Or to doc story or whatever. I mean, maybe Maybe maybe like I'm not getting that credit to slanash doc is interesting for reasons that doc is interesting Sure, sure. I mean and I and I acknowledge that. Um, again, I would say that um, I like Like aphrodite. He's not interested because she popped out of Azusa's head She's interesting because she's after 90 or whatever, right? I think that's the right right. I took out of his head. I don't remember. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, no, I mean I hear that. Um, I but I think that that slanash the presence of the slanash the denial of slanash has continually been a um, a lower pressure point that has come up again And again And again and again, right and like I like I would have never guessed that they would have went a decade Without freeing slanash. Yeah, sure. I mean look if if edging we're we're alone We're a low enough reason to get there then we'd be this would be a winner hands down. Okay But that's just it. It's just that like the concept that you talked about slanash is in prison Right and there's pretenders who are claiming to take the crown and invaders who Uh, are all just trying to be champions and and seekers who are hunting after You know where slanash is to free them um That's it. That's the story man That's like it That was the initial story in the first ghp or whatever where they delivered that breakdown Our first core rules first core book like a os one book one big book Sure, that was the story they laid out And and that's my exact point in eight years. They have done jackall Nothing there's no compelling characters doing anything except like I guess you could argue Maybe sigval just kind of showed up a couple times in semi compelling ways Which has been super super fascinating like how we came out of um Of shades fire and the glass and like I don't know man. Like yeah, I just like again. What did they do in the world? What are those characters actually impacting not much? Like in the broader story slanash is a footnote and it hasn't bothered like It has not bothered to evolve in any way or continue to move Like the fvc story wasn't just the summer king. Hey, the summer king's super cool It was here's the summer king and yes, he's coming back and he's involved with the storm cast trying to find how to fix the Storm cast problem of reforging and also there's this weird subplot with nefarada and You know the blood of usher on getting smuggled into the city through wine to drive people mad and like, you know There's like and also they're they're liberating the people of The the great park, you know and like sending them to freedom and they're all exalting this new thing Like they didn't just have the idea of their nobles, but they're crazy and then stop Right they built on it And that's what's never happened with slanash. That's why it's not here. I just don't think it's good That's it. I mean why isn't it here because it's not good They just haven't done enough. They had a great seed. They planted a great seed and then That's it. They never watered it They never helped. They never let it grow All right Yeah, well again If if you find my argument would be if you find nervel compelling. I think slanash has been equally compelling Um That's it. I don't think any of them have been compelling. I think you can just remove chaos from this slide All right. Well, let's move to a non-chaos one Let's talk about gits. Do gits belong on this list? I thought they're good. No Okay, why no, I know one character. I know one character the loon king. I don't actually know what he's doing Um, like it seems like this entire faction has it like has solely been created to be a spoiler faction Like it pops in and ruins things As again as a wave or tidal force of destruction like it's not to me. It's not interesting in any meaningful way Well, you know two Trug, sure. There's a shrug in the loon king. There you go. Yeah, okay Trug in the loon king and even trug was like look trolls, right like Yay, they now have a leader to lead them. I don't know. I just like I love gits, but for me like their lore isn't what's selling Like that's not what's interesting to me. Okay So I like to me if I'm gonna be honest things like when I look at this slide Um, you know, like we can get to cities here in a minute, but when I look at this slide like I I You know, well, let's talk about yours and I want to then talk about what I think Um What I think is missing from this slide because I think there are probably one or two. That's yep. Absolutely Okay, let me let me sell gits here. So I just I struggle with yeah, try to sell gits. Go ahead So on test number one Overarching narrative, right? I think they have a cool overarching story Their lunacy their obsession with the bad moon, you know, all this kind of stuff is very fun They have they have a really fun personality. They have a lot of character to them They're wacky and yet dangerous and all those kinds of things, right? They're just little loony chicks Okay, and you know, they love fungus and being underground. They have the ever dank I mean, come on now. Come on now, man. The ever dank. Sure. That's wild. Sure. Um, at any rate Interesting character is doing things. I mean, obviously, yes, shrug has been hugely impactful in the story Even if as a force of nature in most recent books But scrag roth's been around for a while and doing things like the lune king is has showed up in many stories that they've done throughout this Um as a but what has he done to impact the realms? What has scrag roth specifically done to impact the realms? Yeah, yes, tell me tell me a realm that that he lives in It's all a fair point. It's all fair I like I like he showed up in the narratives, but like I don't know what he's doing I don't know what his motivations are other than chaos and following, you know, chaos lightly and following the bad mood Yeah, like Right. Well, he is just kind of a mad prophet. So yes, I mean, I don't know that he has super motivations outside of whatever The bad mood tells him to do at that moment, which is fair Um, so I'll agree. It's weaker on that point but they do have some characters doing things and then, uh The third point of like, are they impactful to the story? I mean, yeah, they've shown up a lot Like they're they they are often in the story doing things being a force being an of course of opposition getting in fights You know being like present in the world Okay um They were one of the hardest ones for me to put on here like I'm not going to say again I don't know that I'd like slam dunk these guys But to me they felt like a cut above slightly is I guess the answer like they just For me, they were like the bottom of good Is what I'll say they had just enough of my criteria going on that I was like, yeah That's they've done stuff with them. They've tried to place them in here interesting because The flip side is they could be what they were in the old world You mentioned like change earlier and again, I'm not counting that as a criteria But they could be what they were there Which was just wrapped into the broader orcs and goblins and a running joke that orcs just beat up And they had no actual point like they were completely irrelevant, right? They were basically a nuisance Right, right whereas at least here they are this interesting faction with their own self-contained Like they did grow and change a lot moving into a os and beyond and they've continued to sort of grow that story over time So that's that's why I say it like to me if this is like They're like the 3.6. You know what I mean like they just round up Like they barely slide into this. Yeah. Yeah. No, I hear you that I hear that All right, let's talk about cities because I think we both agree on cities Yeah, I mean, I don't know how you make this list and don't put cities on the good That's my let me just start. I agree opening shot. I agree No, I agree with that because here's there is no other faction in the game that I'm waiting for them to make Models for a a sub faction part of their army from the lord Right. Yeah, sure. Like I'm I'm naming here like the order of azir Right, like I I was hoping it would be in this book. It wasn't we got a couple keywords, which I'm excited about right So it's like they're They are They are they're hinting at what they might do or where they could go in development But even with what we have they are quite well developed.  Yes Like by all three of our tests It's easy. Do they have a cool overall story? Yes, they're like the the foothold there's an entire narrative campaign campaign that's going on right now exactly They're like the foothold of humanity survival, right? Obviously directly compelling. Do they have individual characters doing interesting stuff? Oh my god, a laundry list Callus and toll and and yes, the nester in the most recent story and and on and on and on and on throughout the history of of aos, right Do they and like are they do they take part in the world? Yes a thousand percent Yes, most of the stories happen around them I mean for god's sakes anvil guard fell it isn't even a city anymore, right? It got like or it's not a city of sigmar in that way at least you know and got taken over by Marathi like This is a city that there's this is a faction sorry that has undergone a tremendous amount of tumult and change and Action in the story with its characters with its peoples with its aesthetics with its themes It's and and it's also quite broad Right and when you look at all the different sub factions different cities and how they place across the realms Honestly, they give us like an incredible insight into the the nature and What I want to say the sort of tone of each realm Right as we look through the city's eyes as to what that city looks like in that realm and how it acts and stuff like that like I mean it's it's I just I think it's absolutely there a thousand percent is there I would agree with that. I would agree with that. Yeah Um, okay. What's not here? So there are two that jump out to me that seem like they would be go to Low hanging fruit Maybe three. Okay Um, the first of these is going to be the probably one of the most contested and that would be Ida enough um, okay it is a Super fascinating faction. Okay That has has had real impact on the world in in on like and what I mean by that is like they are like they They have repeatedly been They they have shown how dangerous the world is not because of chaos But because of the nature of the world itself, right? Like they are uh, they are a threat to the cities They've continued to press in they showed up in the malign important story with the unlocking of the sea there With the where the unlocking of the tomb that catechrose came out of they were they're important in that narrative They were important in the narrative with marathi When she moved on anvil guard They were a big part of the movers and shakers that took place through multiple combats through multiple books in that story as well um They have a really compelling like tension with luminous um as another like as another Like area of conflict is I thought I would say um And it's just a super compelling like if we have vampire You know like vampire fish elves like what more could you like soul sucking like just even the nature of Like the nature of what they are Reframed what it meant to be order Like this is not a good collect like these are the good guys, right? Sure. Um, and so all of those reasons I would order beyond just the good guys Yep, yep, um, and so for me like of my three they would probably be the weakest But I think that they potentially have a place on here, especially over something like gets right Because they've had meaningful a meaningful presence. They um, they have a compelling interesting like lower and caste system and um, uh Like I can't say the same thing about something like gets right On like societal structure or whatever and yet like I already know those things That doesn't even really manifest itself in models and yet it is a part of who they are And I'm not really an IDK person And I know these things about about who who or what they are. So I would say that it's a um that they present a compelling sort of story That is is just a very interesting engagement. Okay I'll be I'll briefly give you my reasons why I didn't put them here. Um I don't disagree with anything you said. I think it in beat to me at best. They'd be in the decent Because yes, they've had some moments They lack any real characters that you can grab on to other than bolternus And even then bolternus doesn't do that much in the in the world And well, but we also have our other Tidecaster person that's running around with nape now Like we have them front and center like doing things like I mean She's gonna accidentally give storm cast credit because she's part of the black talents and that's like that's more interesting there than she is She's not acting like an IDK character. She's acting like a storm cast character Right and getting in their wacky adventures um so you know if if If wolverine goes over and joins the Avengers that doesn't make the x-men more interesting It just makes the Avengers more interesting Okay All right, that's what you're describing um so the Like ultimately they just fail the test for me to be like in the good because there hasn't been enough done with them They still always end up being like the ooh, there's spooky boys in the mist and it's like, yeah, okay It's a cool story. Like they do have a very cool origin story They do have a cool theme like I've not disagreeing with any of that. It is all good for me I would probably put them in the decent With the next slide. I wouldn't probably put them into the good. I just don't think they've done enough I don't think they have enough characters. I don't think they have enough impact They wouldn't they wouldn't quite make it to me But I understand that you're saying they wasn't the strongest, but okay, cool Well, if not them then why not luminous? Oh my god, because luminous meet all of those Luminous meet all of those criteria. Yeah, they do And they have a major character that has that has showed up As does what he does not just a little bit Not not just a little bit but a lot, right? um And and I with that I will then also say doc Doc is also a natural with marathi and with her presence and her pushing like both of them Represent actual movers and shakers in the world that are doing something that have their own motivations that are That have agendas that have agency Sure, and that are interesting compelling lore. I mean like as much as I hate luminous Let's be very clear like the range did not take me and yet the like the cast system Turn sideways rather rather than being a hierarchy rather than being these like casts of like elemental line temple Like reimagining of avatar, right essentially like Like it is an interesting like L seeking to Both unify with the world But then also like rather than trying to master it Right seemingly having experienced a dose of humility Because that's hypothetically what happened When they decided to pair with the elemental spirits rather than mastering and controlling, right? Yeah, which which is antithetical to to like the historical elf stuff So again interesting story stuff. They have actual main characters. They've made major impacts on the story Why would they be in this slide because they're just because they're actually boring Like because they're legitimately boring They fail the first I think that's your bias. I really don't that's your bias. I really don't know that's your bias I like number one is is the overarching story of the thing Interesting compelling so on and and I think they just fail that test. I really think they do LRL specifically um Like what's their overarching grabbing elevator pitch narrative?  You're not wrong like Techless and to a lesser degree Altharian and or the twins even we could point out They've shown up in a couple interesting stories actually in a pretty compelling way If you remember back in burning realms when they were bouncing around I do I do I've been doing some fun stuff Um, like that's actually where they've had more more interest when you get down to like that Whether their individual L is doing they've actually come across in some more interesting ways I mean like techless is obviously hugely impactful going up against the gosh and having that big showdown and so on Um And then number three is you know, are they are they heavily involved in the in the story in the world? It took them a while But yes, they did get there again We could like if we talk about at different points in time. They've been more or less involved But for the moment, yeah, they they tend to show up and and do things and be involved in some way So I'm willing to give you credit for that. I just literally think it's number one holds it against it. Yeah, you're right Maybe I am biased. I don't know Like I look I'm not going to say I'm not we all have our biases I just genuinely think their overarching story doesn't have the same compelling as anybody else on this slide now The one that you're right that I do think I left off here and and and is a criminal mistake that I left off as doc Because like that's from stem to stern it passes every test with flying colors Like one two three all easily true stories awesome stories compelling their main characters are Their main character In marathi is obviously incredible. She just carries everything.  She's back and helping them again She's scheming and plotting but always to her own ends but also to save the world and you know, it's it's Like you're right doc should be here bottom line like I just I left doc off and that's a mistake I think they easily make it to this category I again, I agree. I think doc makes it in. I still think luminous does but again Like, you know as Keith roger says their elves that had a civil war turned their Their homeland to a wasteland as a result learned together with elemental spirits to try to make amends and not die And I would argue is also secretly corrupted by chaos, right? Like we get glimpses of that No, and I'm like I'm not being flippant That has never been mentioned officially in their lore. This is completely your own. Have you seen their map? This is literally your tinfoil hat you become No, no, their map is literally the chaos star. I understand like their homeland. I understand I get what this is not my this is your tinfoil hat Pepe Silva crap Okay, it's not no, it's there Just because it is there because their map is a circle does not with lines on it does not it's not just a circle No, this is not Zanester's home. Let's be very clear about that Like as soon as we if they did something see see tom. This is the problem with you and lore Okay, you do the same crap with everything else that we like this is this is an old complain I have with tom Is he will self insert his fanfic nonsense into lore and then build a love of it off of that? Look, maybe you're right. Maybe eventually Just 10 years from now five years from now two years from now six months from now. I don't care There's some story written that shows that the corruption of chaos has been embedded in LRL since the beginning And it manifests in this particular way and if they do something interesting with that cool Then they've done something interesting with that but right now That is nothing it's nothing Because I don't care if it's true or not It isn't impactful on the story and the only time things matter Is when they have an impact on the story Not just if you can pepe silva it on a wall and go look this is probably true. Who gives it if it's probably true Okay, it doesn't matter Because until it manifests in the actions and things that are happening in the story It's not interesting period I think you're just biased against them. That's all I'm saying Got it elves and chaos wars Yes, because you don't believe they exist Um, okay. So those those are the ones that I would say that that potentially is there a place on this slide That's that's fine. But And then from that point on we just we drop off and I fully recognize Like storm cast could potentially be a contender, but they're just boring. They've hinted about some interesting stuff Hold on. Hold on. Let's not get the other ones Okay Good. Yeah Who's your other one? I'll say the other the other one that would The other one potentially would be sulp light and the only reason why I bring that in is because a negash is such a major player Like we had an entire edition We had an entire edition center around his narrative, right of him breaking the world or breaking the multiverse um, and so uh, arguably negash has a place there, but You know, I would but I say that to say it's hard to say sulp light because he actually sits in all death factions And so it's hard to actually identify where exactly he lives um, because you have functionally and sulp light you have a bunch of Independent phythomes which are doing their own things Um, and are not actually operating in any unified fashion at any time. They've actually shown up sure, um And so I think that that would be if anything keeps negash off this list. It's just that no one actually maps to The god like negash doesn't map to any single faction Yeah, hold on. I want to address something george southerland howard said in the comments He said not gonna lie fundamentally disagree with that take lore for war gaming is to provide a platform and inspiration for people To do their own things with their own armies and these sorts of half truths are cool George you're exactly right. That is what the purpose of a lot of these things are to be I mean, it's not the only purpose, but that's part of it I mean the other part of it is to like tell good stories. They also want like sell books That are full of these things. They want to make the armies compelling to you to buy so that way you can sort of, you know Immensely align what with the force so you can attach to it Yeah, like the key is so that you can attach to it right like that you can find uh some type of resonance Yeah, it's trying like the lore is obviously doing many things right and that's but but certainly what you're describing and like being able to tinfoil hat with it and having Strands and things like that that you can pull on for your wacky theories is also a good part of it I don't disagree with that But that's not judging the lore that you know I'm not judging the lore based on the like based on the fact that they have some like interesting strands You can kind of pull on if you like look at it sideways That's just tom being an interesting thinker with how he approaches his armies That's not the lore of the army Okay, the the like yes The function of the greater story is to create threads that people can then take and make their own no disagreement Okay, but i'm not taking everyone's threads Like seven other people have seven other wild theories about lrl. I'm taking all those into a county either man Okay Um, you know like that's not the story is the story that's presented Okay It's it's not like you bring your own meaning to it man. Yeah, of course you do when you make your army Right, and you should and that's one of the coolest things about wargaming is that we can But that's not when we're talking about like a comparing the lore. I'm looking at what's on offer That's it Not what tom's invented not what tom's invented. So there you go, george. That's my answer like you're right I don't disagree with anything you said, but this just just has nothing to do with when you're doing a lore comparison Okay All right the decent This is like this is the people who get threes Okay, they're passable. Yep. First of all, I'll agree with based on your previous argument. I think both idk and lrl should be in this in this picture. Let's just start there. Okay Based on what you said before so i'm with that Like no argument to me. They would have both crossed enough to be here To be like, yeah, there's this they're decent. They're not failing. I want to be super clear, right? Like you get a three that most people get a three right and and so like um This is this is like To me, this is where s2d actually falls some people were like beating me up on the previous side Like why isn't s2d here? I've got a simple answer because they fail multiple of the tests um Overall a overarching story on s2d. Yeah pretty pretty cool pretty interesting pretty compelling stuff I actually have read some of the old like The old world like chaos short stories and by the way I think this is one of the places where the old world lore can continue forward because chaos never broke Wasn't like their world got destroyed somebody else's world their world has remained consistent ever since right? um They didn't go through an apocalypse. They caused it Right Indeed and so S2d though fails the test to me where it's like they have archaeon. They have bellicor They're both going around doing things and are cool characters, right? But they don't actually get that involved in the world in a meaningful way It usually ends up being the individual chaos gods armies rather than like other than archaeon or bellicor themselves And we can point at all the interesting things obviously archaeon Through the realm gate wars and through a lot of stuff is hugely impactful I'm not trying to minimize what he did or you know stuff like that, right? But he's never like he's almost never actually going anywhere. He's almost always defending something. Yeah like the My my issue is s2d when you look across the scope of like The stories that get told through Thondio or broken realms or or or or or or right? Like you can all the sort of big narrative books where they're where they're those are and the reason I'm focusing in on those like dawn breakers and stuff is because unlike the novels Those are meant to show kind of the advancement of the broader story in the moral realms Right and like what's going on and s2d just really doesn't isn't the mover and shaker there It's almost always the the god-based armies That are really doing the work that are doing the heavy lifting there Um, that's why I put corn and zinch here because I think they show up pretty frequently in that regard Um, again through characters that are that are there and that are present and that are doing things Although zinch like maybe not I could probably jettison them off this list is my honest answer But to me they're kind of their number one was really strong other than their number two was really weak And their number three is like ever present You know other than uh, there are their activity in excelsis, right? Yeah In the in the one city, you know, like that that was the most interesting that I've ever seen zinch Uh, so I agree with that. Um, I do agree with frank that like we like s2 Like std s2d do get credit for all the war cry stuff like everything that's been built out in war cry Yeah, um, they really do get the credit and that's been some of the most robust world building motivation Like glimpses of the world the lived in world that we've seen. Yeah, you're wrong there and so But that but that doesn't push them up to top tier like well to be very clear. Um There's interesting stuff going on there and there's interesting cultures and stuff like that But we haven't actually seen them do anything like the cities went out and have like terraformed Right different realms. Yeah, sure Like these these people aren't doing anything like that. Yeah We haven't seen any mention of the ninja guys the civil rights or what what were those what were the guys with the fans and the Oh, I know I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah, the cypher lords Like we haven't seen anything about the cypher lords, right? Like they like we had some neat models Right, but they they haven't actually done anything And so they do fail some parts of this test and so I agree they need to be on this page But they did bring some very compelling world building through the war cry stuff Yeah Yeah, that's a good point and I'll openly admit I hadn't considered that the war cry thing and that's actually a really good point Um, yeah, no doubt Okay, um corn I put here because corn is just kind of an ever-present player. They're always around corgis call is pretty interesting um, he's He's clearly been getting the hell out of here and a lot. I mean, I mean it corn is so boring Like I don't know how you could put corn here and not put obr OBR does the same thing collects bones Except they collect more than just skulls. They collect the whole body And they have like what they've been way more interesting in the narrative corn is basically Other than the initial push sure like they haven't really done anything significant Like they were the initial villain that like that the The storm like the storm storm hosts like were framed against sure I'm gonna say this I would jettison corn long before I put obr in Let me just go ahead and answer this because I've seen some obr defense in the in the In the comments. I'm gonna just go ahead and smack that down real hard right now. Um OBR's overall lore is like interesting enough Catechros is cool. He's got a nice sort of attitude about him. He's he's a cool dude his activities in And what about arkin arkin the black I mean the one the one ever loyal to negash. Yeah, again, I don't I don't know man I don't know what to do with arkin like like negash. I don't know where to credit him to Okay, I'm not sure. I'm not sure what category he's added to Right, I know I understand he is truly I understand he's part of obr or part of the the obr army in in the book Like I get it. I get his war scrolls in that book. Okay As an aside, can I can I I'm gonna go off on a brief model tangent real quick go for it. Um, I've been yielding the more tarks Um this last, you know week or so and I just have a truly a new appreciation a truly a new appreciation for the design elements That began in those models And how those have been carried through To the various armies. Yeah And so how we can look at manfred and the aesthetics of hit the armor for his like morta arkin for his like Death pony thing his death bat pony thing And like I see echoes in all of the like the blood knight armor and then likewise with arkin like All of the aesthetics that we ended up seeing with like the scarab like banded arm Um in arkin stuff is like part and parcel like that that became the like the hallmark Of the obr aesthetic and so I just like it was just such masterful Like foreshadowing right of the of the model trajectories or or taking those models and then letting them become the paradigmatic examples of Of what those things were well and to that end. So that's why that's why soulful I agree lord to hear and not obr obr and this is like let me see somebody had to comment um Like catechorus himself has a pretty good story. I agree But w. Henry said obr lost one battle and have done nothing since beautiful. Love it summary, right? Like yep, they stomped in they Took a castle. They then lost and retreated back to their castle and now catechorus is near as I can tell It's been stomping around that castle being angry for a while Right, like what have you what do you do here? Like the bone time escape idea He escaped catechorus escaped from the the storm vault remember we had storm vaults Yeah, I guess that's where he came from and then like I said, he's a cool dude I'm not arguing. He's not a cool dude He is like Well and and less dr. Doom is cool Okay, even even d-list dr. Doom is still cool You bone daddy bone daddy dr. Doom. Yeah But but I mean arkin was like faithfully making armies He's been he's been spending all this time making these arms that would categorize arkin and negash are just outside of it I don't know what to do with these two because he's just always with negash. It's just negash's puppet Like I'd have to give credit to every death faction for anything arkin does Like everything that when arkin and negash were planning the thing that caused endless spells to happen You know the big soul quake. He wasn't acting as part of obr He was just being arkin the black. That was free. No, that was pre obr I was setting the stage for him for his people to arrive He was most certainly not no because all that happened before the storm vaults, right? And so like what he was doing was he was he was they were they were they were carefully orchestrating the return of categories That's what the that's what it was all about. Oh my god. Here we go The giant rat that makes all the rules. This is this is this is a name OBR lore is the Darth Vader hallway scene in rogue one Yep Yep, that is exactly correct That is exactly correct I have never end of discussion We reached the mountaintop. Okay, period Uh, that is maybe the best thing I've heard now On the flip side, soul blight deserves to be in here 100 percent. Why? Because One they've been impactful in a lot of ways and I'm not just counting what negash does here Okay, I'm saying you have three compelling mortars all three of whom have shown up a lot Done a lot of different things even if that's often lose I mean, they're still involved right now the whole blood plot with with usher and blood is a nephew plot Right, these three are are like they're working right and so Like that that's to me. That's actually what's compelling about soul blight is Is the mortars have a lot of character? They dominate sort of the character for their their thing They've been heavily involved in the world. I see them as sort of that They are really let's be honest the preeminent sort of death faction, right? They're they're basically what grew out of the original one and it gets tricky because this these The death factions have been like all combined and then broken up and then yada yada yada over the history of aos So like who's getting credit for whose work here is really hard. But hence the arc and joke, right? There's dependent. There's dependency. We just don't know which way to Yeah, like I don't know where to put for an entire edition for an entire edition A spirit hosts were just in um soul blight Right like for the first edition all spirit hosts were in soul blight Like let's not forget that we only got night haunt when we got to second edition right They were mo lignets before yeah, sure And you know, I think that they're just interesting characters um Cygnus maximus said but how are they interesting compared to standard vampires and folklore pop culture? I mean, I I don't know that they are or aren't they're pretty standard Vampires as near as I can tell right like that is to say they're not doing anything interesting concept really in In the most recent recent iteration We got the two we got the two basically breakaways from that one. We got russian vampires Like russian vampire slash bleeding into werewolves Okay, which is weird, but it's a thing And then we've also so it's getting into like eastern vampire lore Sure And then the other one is moving into like the mother of nightmares lupivy like monstrous Like um, I'll give me the castlevania or yeah Like like the castlevania. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean you could do a lot more with it, but that's okay I think nefarada. I think manfred are very compelling characters I just think they're interesting in the way they act in the story like they're like Generally my favorite part of a lot of the stories have been when you actually just get them talking or interacting with each other And and sort of scheming and politicking and things like that. They're just they are fascinating Now the one I put on here that's sort of the prize that shouldn't be here is ogres Right, I put them on here because of the strength of kind of they're they do have an interesting overall lore They've tried to do some interesting stuff with them. This is like no, it's just hey woe Hey woe is what's made of big. Yeah, like ogres themselves like hey woe And and his uh, and his impersonation of the ogre right and his championing of them are bigger than any actual Name characters in that faction. Yeah, I think they're really they don't deserve to be on the decent I think they should be moved off. I honest answer as I've thought about it more like I put them on here Because in my head I wanted it to be true not because it was I mean, I'll be honest. Well, so here I appreciate your honesty What I would push back is that the one piece that is interesting for Is the um, like the frost side of it Like with the everwinter and the like the chasing and all that stuff Like that is a like that is a wonderful setup Waiting for an waiting for an actual like pay offering or that we've never seen like we've never seen them train that that storm into like a storm cast army or Right, like to use that use the nature to their advantage. We've never actually seen them do that yet. Um, But boy wouldn't that be interesting And then you have the one like then you have the one on the list that to me feels like it Definitely belongs on the decent and we haven't talked about it too much. But yes, it's here And that's just storm cast like storm cast aren't great, but they are decent Um, there's actually lots of really compelling characters. You've got goddess You've got bastion. You've got to be there. There's others, right? Um, neve and the whole black talents thing. We mentioned that earlier. I mean, I haven't watched the black talent show I heard it's actually pretty darn good I haven't either You know, put it up somewhere where I'll watch it.  Um the It's not happening. Um, I'll let you borrow my login. Yeah, thanks. Uh, you know, but like They are the poster child faction. There's a statue out front. They Generally are involved in everything. They have lots of compelling characters The problem is they often just don't do enough with them Like we have gotten some really cool moments of some really cool interactions with some of the characters where they feel more Emotional resonant human like I don't I don't I don't know what words to use here that aren't loaded but like So recently for example the interaction between ionis and vandals And part three of the dawn rivers was great Was really good. It was like a page In that whole thing and it was some of the most compelling narrative that was there right Because you really felt like these two had an actual character And they had different points of view and they had a clash of ideas and then the discussion between them interesting At this sort of hegelian dialectic happened and it was interesting what they came to right and and that's what i'm looking for Like have a character. It's a strong enough character It has some point of view on the world that it's trying to bring to bear through its actions And it runs up against another character And who has a different point of view and wants to take a different set of actions and the resolution isn't they go punch each other It's they have to talk it out and have a sort of contest of ideas because this is what ultimately matters right and so You know, I wish they would do more with that I wish they would because I think the storm cast do have the potential to be really really compelling as protagonists You know the idea of fighting a losing war Of the idea of like what it means to be a hero all of this stuff is questions that are like Very super part of a lot of classic pieces of literature We just don't do enough with the actual story So I don't know and it's funny Because originally the setting was framed as chaos one And now we're rooting for the heroes that are taking back the world Right, like that was the framing originally when gw kind of pitched what aos was Is what happens if the if the good guys suddenly were on the back football win And what's fascinating is We just don't see them winning anymore or if they're winning they're winning at a really slow pace. Yeah Because like we have the realm of fire ish And kind of the realm of life ish And I haven't really seen storm cast push into any of the other areas not meaning Ger would be the other one, but yeah, yeah Say what ger would be the other one Ger Oh, yes. Yeah, sure. Right. Like that's what's happening right now certainly Um, so I don't know. I just uh, it just feels like they're not It's funny like I say they're not doing enough where they've really been the backbone of the like the throwing off of the chaos yoke Yeah, and yet, um We just don't see that like we we've zoomed into Other momentous events whether those momentous events be things like the necroquake or the Releasing of catechrose or not another release. Well, yes. So releasing catechrose also the releasing of I don't know. Uh, no, what's the big uh destruction guy Crimes that nobody remembers or no his yeah the bad guy. Um Or uh, yeah or or or right but um or even the cities Right, but that has nothing to do with storm cast and so I guess my pushback would be that um, they just don't uh For being the star of the show they don't seem to be doing a lot in there Yeah, you know, kyle nelson said would they need to lean more into their metaphor for the dehumanization of war? and I Agree with that to a point. Well, here's how I agree with that. That's one of the metaphors they should lean into with storm cast Storm cast should be an examination of what a life of war Does and the different reactions one can have to that, right? And the different ways that it can change and alter the perception and the actions and the way that put what people fight for Those who keep fighting and remain hopeful those who give into on we and and madness and sadness those who give into Dehumanization and become the monsters because they've stared at the abyss too long All of those are valid stories. Do you think the different change the different chambers should it should embody?  I think that's all stupid Don't force it into that right make it about what it should be about characters Right and like there are probably like like this is an incredibly emotionally charged thing and so having it like Told of give me 10 different reactions Of what happens to that right of what what it means to be at war constantly for your existence to be a soldier Right who is constantly fighting Yeah, yeah and You know by the way what i'm asking isn't and if you think no it can only be dehumanizing or it can only be this or that Like I don't think so. We you know, tom you and I've been playing d&d for 30 years right Yeah, and when you're playing a d&d character you're often playing a d&d character that Frankly fights for a living and kills a lot of things for a long long time many years often Right being in near constant struggles for your life and yet most of us don't most Games we've played in our characters don't inevitably become dehumanized monsters although they have sometimes we've explored that as a concept Right, yeah, but we've also explored 10 other concepts of how that life of battle changes you Right and and That's what I want to see Right, so so don't limit it. I think you're right Kyle, but I don't want to limit it Um Like I think there's so much there to explore that they're just leaving on they're just leaving fallow on the table That's the problem Okay, is there anyone else who's decent? Yeah, I didn't include I didn't put slenesh here either by the way. I just I really don't think it's even good They didn't they didn't even make this cut Yeah, I think that yeah, I don't know that I agree with that but they got to do something man But but anyways, I mean like we introduced senessa and dexessa and then they got shot to death with arrows and died That was their purpose It was really sad And they've done nothing sense cool cool cool new named greater demons dig it um What uh, I mean is there anyone else you think of who should be in here decent? What about ko? I didn't include ko in the decent there. They're often showing up in the story They have they have some compelling individual characters who are Running around interesting including their former god who seems to be like, you know a deck hand on one of their ships By all accounts. Yep. Okay. Yep No, I would agree with that and actually they've went through a major loss like as a faction Like they have a really compelling narrative to me at least where they abandon their gods In the in the face of the overwhelming victory of chaos and as a noble race they decided to flee Like that's very undwarf like right and so it's like I think that there's a fascinating narrative that has been being out in the ko story for a very long um And so and we've gotten some interesting narratives and some captains and and all of that But they just haven't been a very influential part of the major narrative Right. Um, they haven't been impactful like they've showed up, but they haven't been impactful. Does that make sense? Like I think I probably should have put them in decent is my honest answer Okay, like they have enough their overarching story. Like if I could look at my three criteria, their overarching story is pretty cool Like, you know sky pirate ultra capitalists is certainly a compelling interesting idea. Like that's cool Right That's four words and I'm like tell me more. I'm double-clicking. I would like to know more. It's true. Okay. It's true. It's true um, and You know at the same time like I said, they there's lots of characters you meet in the stories that seem pretty cool. They get involved Um, they do show up in a lot of the books including in you know, but basically every major series They've shown up in in some way since their introduction um James Struthers, I said doc was actually in the good like they're the great Sorry, the first one. They were they were in the the high performers. I missed him But I said that was a mistake. They should have been up there in the high performers um And so, you know, we've got cool haul in the comments really arguing for fireslayers So tom, I mean, we all know where I'm going to come down with fireslayers. I just could not care.   No, they shouldn't and the problem is that they just haven't done anything Um, like I I don't see where they've actually meaningfully showed up like they they They have a story going on in the next county Like they're doing things in the world Like hunting their god hunting their goal, you know, like trying to reassemble um Uh Grim near and I just like it's just not interesting And it's hard to relate to and they haven't really had a major presence in any stories They've shown up occasionally as like mercenaries people hire Sure. I mean they have bailed out people including the storm cast on on occasions. They've been able to see But as their own agents that has simply not been Zombie monkey seven says fireslayers just can't catch a break anywhere. Can they No, apparently they're on the lore show Make better models and story and and again I have probably more fireslayers than most people in the war Sure. Um, and it's just not Uh, it's just not a big story army.  Like that's not a thing He's not in the faction. He may look like it. But again, he's part. He's a different story. Yeah Yeah, I agreed. I mean, yes, he's not a fireslayer And he actually in fact hates fireslayers Um, that's like the irony narratively Okay All right. I mean, I'll leave it to it. I know I know kuhl's gonna rep them So but all but we'll let we'll let the viewers decide Okay, indeed The worst I just have a big question mark for this slide Here we go, tom Because this is just the open discussion portion Who's the worst right right who is the absolute bottom Who has the worst lore in aos and then we'll then we'll end on who has the best As we crown a victor Who who is your absolute bottom of the barrel? I think if I'm gonna be on it Let me double check this. I I have a good but I'll wait for you. Make sure Would you like me to say my vote while you're while you're waiting while you're looking? Uh, yeah, go ahead. It's iron jaws It's iron jaws I haven't heard one person mention him not one person in the comments. I've been watching. Okay The entire time we were talking about decent or great not one person was like what about iron jaws I'm gonna raise you one Okay, I'm gonna raise you one. Yeah Night haunt. Yeah, this is this is the other one that was gonna be on my list They're sad like like iron jaws are angry and rampant But at least they're like making their way through the realms. I don't even know where night haunt live Like there's no homeland of night haunt. They just show up in graveyard Sure I know sure, but that's like That's like saying zebras live in africa like sure, right? There's no like my problem with night haunt is it's like, okay Yes, olander sad. We get it But there's no actual Like motivation as an army or a faction like at least we've seen a major narrative right in the realm gate war with iron jaws and there was this trajectory and there was this narrative and it was like What's his face reborn? I know my audio just messed up because my head just died Like we've had at least one major narrative For night haunt, we just haven't again sadness Like we don't actually have any manifest Like function or purpose or aim or again homeland or Hierarchy or structure none of that is there. We have characters and I have no idea what they're doing in the Oh boy, this is a really tough showdown between the two right right door. I I get it. What what are you doing? I get it. So Here's my issue The reason I would put night haunt above ij Is because and by the way, I agree we're having like a worst-first-worst fight here Okay, this is like, I don't know nor alias our worst fighter as a wooden leg and a real foot You know, like we're really at the bottom of the barrel here. So whatever um night haunts overarching narrative themes is is cool Like the condemned and that they carry the sins of their life through them and you know You can see that in the punishments that negash manifests for them for being cowardly or or for, you know, whatever Right. It's kind of interesting And ladio has had a few cool interactions with like bellicor and other types of characters like that Um, it's not much. I'm just saying it has happened Okay Whereas the iron jaws as much as I love them. They're one of my favorite armies.  I mean, it's it's so different than like dirty orcs Like I disagree because the cruel boys have Uh gobsprack who's like the mouth of cragnos and his like he's super deep involved in like plots and machinations And doing things in the most recent story and at least like they're overarching stories more interesting They have characters doing something. They're like participating again. I still don't think they make decent They're getting a two Okay on their your on their lore review. All right.  All right, we can get them a performance improvement and get them into something good But the iron jaws man, there's nothing It is an empty world out there. They're just they are just a hurricane And a hurricane is not a compelling story. That's all it is right and and so uh You know, this is this is my problem um like Uh zombie monkey seven said what are all the factions that haven't been put into decent good just to narrow down the list to the bottom Yeah, just like they're all they're all failing in some way, right? But like I don't know where they all fall. I I didn't want to get too granular. Like what does the different levels of bad? You know, we never mentioned silvan f Again, I think they follow the line, but they're not like they're not decent, but they're not that bad They're they're not the worst. No The we have sons of bad doing a lot of work a lot of work sons of sons of bahamut. Yeah Which let me just let me talk about silvaneth real quick because I want to say this Silvaneth is a faction boring and completely uninteresting. Alariel is a character deeply interesting and fascinating This is the problem that I had with them because I thought about silvaneth a lot for this I and they almost made it onto my decent list on the strength of alariel alone Who I think is like a legitimately interesting character who's Going through a lot and a lot of changes and she gets like lots of asides and talks and has like real motivations and character journeys and stuff like that I think she's super cool and compelling It's just everybody else in silvaneth is like completely Milk toast and doesn't you know, there is an interesting There is another army that we've that's been so unimpactful. We've just forgotten about them I said I haven't mentioned yet. Is that who you're going to talk about? No, it's even worse than that I mean, bees to chaos is bad, but it's even worse than that. Sure Bone splitters, that's not real. It's not a real army, but sure No, yes, it is like it's right here if iron jaws is Sure, right Then then bone splitters are even worse. I don't even have a real name character other than the the prophet Yeah Um, I mean Sure, sure. We at least have gourd rack right in iron jaws but like like naked stick wielding orcs Uh, they don't have a presence in there Like they are truly the bottom like if there is the bottom News flash it is them. I think even worse than night on to be very clear Yeah, I don't know. That's fair. I mean like boy, but that just feels like I'm really kicking a man when he's down right there You know, I mean like sure I guess It's barely a faction It's it was a clearly an afterthought in the book itself So I can't expect them to do anything with them in the floor like they're gone. They're obviously gone Come the next edition they cease existing, right? Hey, we got we got head rackers head Crackers mad mob like we got new models, buddy You can get them online for 25 dollars right now Yeah, I agree somebody said a faction so bad. It's not even actually a candidate for worse It just doesn't even appear in this list. Like that's a bone splaters is we're talking about real factions here, Tom Exactly. I rest my gaze Um, yeah, I mean those guys are going back to the old world like they don't they don't have a place in aos anymore So like they're just ridden out so they can't be the worst because they just don't exist error 404 lore not found, right Yeah, I mean to me it would be I I think you're you make really compelling points on night haunt I think it has to be between those two to me like night haunt and iron jaws Somebody asked about suns. I do think suns are like tremendously boring and uninteresting but at least But I don't know but they're not down at the bottom at the worst because they have like tried to do some interesting things with them They tried to do some fun fairytale-esque Reimaginations with them. They do keep showing up in stories in some way or another And and have some interesting compelling things happening. It's super minimal super minimal Okay, but like they've got a little bit of something. So they're probably a low two is what it comes down to Bad failing, but not the worst. That's what it comes down to for suns They could do so much more Um Okay, okay, those are the worst. Yeah, right. I mean, we're pretty clear on the best, right? Yeah, who's the best? But who's the best? It's fec Show me one faction. I dare you show me one faction on that slide. That's better than fec Okay, I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a moment Oops. All right. I went back to car. There we go Okay I'm gonna play devil's advocate for a moment because to me this competition comes down to three factions For who's the best? Okay fec seraphon and cities Okay All three have comparing very compelling overarching narratives All three have characters all three have a presence in the world Right They easily need all the criteria Yeah So that's we're not we're not based on that. No right My issue with fec Is it's overarching story is doing all the heavy lifting Still Okay, we're starting finally To get some interesting stories out of the out of the individual movements of the guy Like with gerryon and stuff like that, right? We're starting But but it's still pretty minimal Okay Whereas with cities And even with seraphon we have years of lots of really cool stories and interactions and lore of what these people have been doing and and things like that tom cities has Have risen and fallen Cities have tremendous characters that show up in like a myriad number of things callous and toll at all Okay Cities are your your viewing portal into the realms and their individual personality Deeper though Seraphon have a spaceship battle in one of the books You can put that on offer Okay like My issue with the fec is they've grown a lot in the past six months I'm still not sure it's enough like if we were waiting solely on vibes, which is what you're saying Then yeah, probably Like if it was just vibes alone of like who's just kind of the coolest concept It'd be fec because that concept is just fire Right, and it's the remnants of Bretonia. Bretonia is getting new models vents. Okay. Sure. I mean, I'm whatever um like As a pure distilled concept it is Very good I'm not arguing that But I just don't think enough ironically meat is on that bone To give me the best my my problem is that cities are too too big and too amorphous That's the problem is that you're you literally have 13 sub factions that have all been lumped under a single hay Sure, and it's meaningless because it's because it is as big as it is um It's still ultimately the grand story of a lot of humans trying to survive in an insane world That's ultimately the story of all the cities. It's just different manifestations different personalities They're doing what I wanted to be done with a storm cast Right, what I wanted to done with storm cast was show me the different manifestations of a people literally at war for their existence Okay, and and have that come out through the characters Cities Give us that they've not not the eternally at war. They give us the manifestation of different cultures peoples, etc Put under conditions of extreme hostility where they shouldn't survive right where they're always where the deck is stacked against them They're not always a war So some of these cities actually have extended periods of peace, right? But the deck is still stacked against them because life is hard and they're not supermen Right, and you see all the different Manifestations of that as it comes through in the different cities. Some are noble and and try to like better themselves And reach for glory and and so on and so forth a hammer hull kind of attitude, right? Some become grimy and gritty and give in to like the grift Mist oven or whatever right where they're they're like that kind of thing Some turn to their other allies and turn what would be enemies into friends right in in uh, you're uh, The silvan ethylene city Okay Right the living city And so on right And so to me that's actually a strength not a weakness We get to see the the permutations of what this world does to the people who live within it And I think that's actually super compelling. I I think by votes got to be cities, but I mean like I think I would even pick serif on over se fec Hmm, I don't know. That's not even a real equally wild and they've done a lot No, I I see uh, I see nothing like and if we're gonna write in our own fan fiction Then I get to count if you get to count dumb chaos elf crap, then I'm counting battletoad gothic Let me just say that right now at least my thing actually happened Okay, I mean Maybe or maybe it was just imagined in a space frogs mind like I don't know that it's real I don't know that that's not a real army like that's fine uh, you can feel that way, but uh That's not a thing. I mean again, I think again, but the same could be said as the delusion of the Of a king Right. Sure. Um, it may not be a real thing But I think it has to come down to one of those three Like I think from beyond that point we could we could go back and forth and and really have a lot of discussions about them But I think it's one of those three. I think those are the top three easily Now we're just a ring over who gets the gold silver bronze and it's like a photo finish for for different What I would say is this like And I think like let me just acknowledge That uh, kodi is right that doc doc could be in that conversation as well Like of those three doc could potentially be there. The problem is the rest of the factions too weak. It's all on marathi That's why it doesn't deserve to be in this conversation. Yeah, that's fair. No, that's fair Marathi is amazing And super compelling, but that's one character and like She's done a lot Like a lot way more than a boreal That's why somebody asked like why to sylvaneth not get that credit when you gave it to to doc and they have similar arcs I agree with that I think it's because marathi simply way more impactful in the world and has been a way more compelling They're way more interesting. Yeah. Yeah Yeah I agree, but hey folks we want to hear from you. That's right. Which one do you think Is the best which is the most compelling put it down in the comments below. There you go. That's right There you go. What did we miss who what who where are we totally wrong? Give us some comments. Tell us all about it. Tom. Thank you so much. This is a good discussion today This went longer than I thought it would but we just got into it and I couldn't stop because it's really compelling stuff Like there's actually a fun argument like so.  We got some we got some good hotel internet tonight This has been nice and nice and clean real crisp. So way to go New York hotel. I appreciate it At any rate, thank you so much for watching. Don't forget to hit like if you haven't already Subscribe do all those things that make all those dings. 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I really appreciate it But thank you so much for watching Next week will be the fec review tom will not be participating because his opinion doesn't matter No, I mean like it's that's not true It's it's going to be a lot of fun. We're very much looking forward to it two plus tough dug is going to be here It's going to be a great show. Look forward to that next week. I'll be back at home As always, thank you so much for watching this And we'll see you next wednesday Can't end it