Felly、 ydych chi'n defnyddio y Llyfrgell Llyfrgell yn ddoch i gyd yn gweithio ddim yn ffodol fel non anod yn ei wneud, efallai rydw i ddim yn felly llynllun. Felly, dyna ni fydd gan y hoffwyr i'r dystau'r cyflwyno radio ydw i bwysig edgeshau no cwrwch. Felly, nid y gallwch yn fawr datblygu fyddiad. Roedd y ddwy hyn, y mwy fyddech chi'n gwneud. Fyelduol yn fyddiwyd y gwerthwyr, a rydyn ni'n dweud bod nhw'n llyfiol. Ie ddim yn fwy o'r gwnaeth. Mae'n ddweud â'r byw i'w gwaith am ymlaen nhw, i wneud yn fwy o'r gwych â Jane Fee a Anita. Fy hwnna'n gwych ar gweithio'r llwy. Dwi'n fwy o'n gwybodaeth i chi'n gwneud. Fy hwnna'n ddim yn fwy o'r gwaith o'r fwy o'r gweithio. Rwy'n ddu i gwaith i'r ffyrdd. Rwy'n ddu i'n gwych yn fwy o'r fwy o'r gwaith. Mae'n ddigon i gyda'r ffyrdd. Fi sent me pictures of her by a pool yesterday with her beautifully painted feet looking rather lovely.  Has she? Has she? No, of course she hasn't. I've tied it up. No, and then when I was moaning and I said, oh well I'll just talk to Jane. I don't want to talk to you about tomorrow.  I'll talk to Jane, she's my favourite. She said, well that's nice. She's just come back from Seville.  Did you have a lovely time though? Thank you, yes. Did you have a nice time? Was it good? Yes, it was. Do you find it easy to switch off when you go on holiday?  So busy, aren't you? Absolutely. I do find it very easy to... I mean I'm not that busy. I shouldn't really say that when people have actually been kind enough to pay money to come out to hear us talk. But we're not as busy as you might think. We're certainly not as busy as you. Well no, I think you're actually ridiculously forcey modest. You don't have packed schedules, do you? No, not really. Unless you're doing work I don't know about, which is possible. No, you're doing stuff behind my back. No, I tell you everything, Jane. But do you tell each other everything? There's quite a lot of my life that Jane knows about that I think she doesn't know about but then it turns out she does know about. So yeah, I know she knows about it pretty much. Does she know more about you than I do? Because I have to say we are all three of us very good friends. I basically professionally stalked the hero from throughout my career. I was five live first of all. Oh no, but we do actually like you in these times. They say that. It's not one way strong. Right, not by the end of this.  I can't get over that. But anyway, so five live feeded a late night show and then I stalked her into that role and then Jane did drive on five live and I stalked her into that role when she left and then they went on off to Radio Four and I stalked them there as well. So I mean there could be a restraining order by the end of the evening, frankly. So you tell each other everything. The podcast relationship, that is 2017, isn't it? Yes. It's longer than all of my marriage is put together. So we have been podcast dating for five years. Five years is a long time. It's a very long time, isn't it? But the funny thing was, so before you think that this is some kind of terrible coven of intricate friendship, actually Jane and I didn't know each other all that well when we started doing the podcast because over at Five Live, it's a little bit like different sections of a library, isn't it? You would imagine it's all one great big kind of festival of fun. God knows it can be. But actually the different shows mean that you don't often come across people in real life. So we didn't really know each other until we did the Radio Festival together in 2013. I'm lucky for some, but not for us as it turned out. And we actually discovered that we quite liked each other and we made each other laugh.  Short, that's the bit I always forget. And I think people just, I mean, it is true that some BBC managers honestly couldn't distinguish one from another. And they can't actually, I think when they heard that we were doing a podcast together, there was an element of what there are two of them. No idea. But there is a sort of awful truth at the heart of this which is that women are too ready to compete against each other because there weren't that many of us and there are more of us now, which is brilliant.  Exactly. I'm trying to be aware of. Thank you very much. I know you're keeping me a check and rightly. It's important, obviously. But we were, I think I was a bit scared of you. Oh, don't be so silly. Why are you scared of her? Femus, why? Terribly sophisticated. Note the past tense. Well, now I know the truth. She'd worked at GLR, which was London. Some of you will have been very dedicated listeners to GLR and it was so hip and so happening. And you had this wet look catsuit thing that you wore a lot. You were notorious. Whereas I'd done my local radio at BBC Hereford and Worcester. Well, you know, which was wonderful, but not quite in the same league.  And she was just a bit more worldly and she's had twice as many husbands as me. It's just genuinely, it's not fair. But I really regret that now and I hope it doesn't happen in that way now with sort of younger women in broadcasting, as we were then, where they don't speak to each other because they're slightly worried that, frankly, the other one is after your job. I always really liked her. I always say, but there wasn't a lot of evidence to actually back that up. There's a Daily Mail quote about you. Oh, God, that's not going to go well, isn't it? Actually, no, surprisingly, they really liked you on this occasion. In person, as in on air, their style is conversational. Jane is homely Thelma to fees more buccaneering Louise. Homely. I mean, how do you feel about that? I've been called homely a lot, actually. Somebody else won, and I've never forgotten it. Someone else described me as a homely blue stocking. So that's two homelys, one blue stocking, and one was the other adjective. Thelma and Louise, you know how they ended up. Exactly, that was good, wasn't it? I think you just need to stop the soup anecdotes. I am dull, but there's that. I'll take a certain amount of pride in that. No, I know, but please don't take the Daily Mail first.  I mean, honestly, it would be very easy to hate them, and I don't really. I love them both incredibly. But the fastest wits, I mean, you'll hear this. If you hear, fortunately, you will know this, light lightning, and I resent you both deeply for this. You just managed to be there very, very quickly, and when you told me, I think it was Fee told me first of all, that you're working on the book, I sort of went, yeah, let's see how you do that. What does that work? Could you really think that, you miserable cow? I did. But you made it work, and what is wonderful, if you haven't read this book and it's on sale outside, please read it outside. No, you really should. It's one of those things, so listening to their podcast has always reduced me to hysterics on a crowded tube always. I mean, it's always at the most inopportune moment. But the book did the same thing. It's laugh out loud funny, and what is beautiful about it is that we hear your voices. I mean, you've managed, you've cracked it. We wrote it ourselves. But you didn't take on another voice for it. You kept completely who you are and how you speak. How did you do it? First of all, were you intimidated by this idea of writing? Oh, I totally, because we are both massive book lovers, aren't we? Yes. I've always wanted to write a book.  I didn't want to be terrible at it, but also I did find it hard to find my righty-type voice, because I know what you mean. Some people, they don't speak that way, but they're right in a way that's terribly sort of authorly. It's like wearing grown-up pants. People put on their grown-up pants.  I went from Five Live, which has a brilliant conversational free-wheeling style, and suddenly started adopting these affected pauses in my sentences. Well, it's a whole different type of intonation.  Well, you must have noticed this. I presume many of you are Radio 4 listeners, and you can share with the group. It's fine, we won't judge it. But there's this thing at Radio 4. I think it happens as much as it used to, but when people were being introduced on air, there'd be this long kind of spiel about, you know, he was the former ambassador to the UN, who then took up his post as the world's most important pompous ars. He is, of course, Sir Buffington Tuffington, and you're listening at home going, of course. I mean, I don't know. I don't know, Nick. It might be, of course, to you, Mr Robinson, but it's not, of course, to all of us. I've assumed knowledge, I think, at Radio 4, which can be incredibly intimidating to listen to, because that's the moment that you always switch off as a listener, you know, when somebody, you know, is just kind of operating way above your level. You know, I'm at home going, well, I don't care.  So I think both you and I struggled with that actually when we joined, didn't we? I would say arriving at Radio 4 as a presenter is a bit like deciding to set up home in a very remote, Herefordshire village. No previous knowledge of the locality whatsoever, and sort of breezing in and assuming that you can take over the Women's Institute.  And it's not terribly welcoming, actually. No. Well, you two both had a hard time. Yeah. Well, did you not? Well, I think you'd made it easier for me, actually. I'll be very honest. I mean, that's why I do follow you in your career, because you plough the furrow and I just trips in. But it was hard. It's one of the things that I love you to read in a little while, because I think it's just a real treat, and they both picked my favourite chapters that they wrote, which is really nice for me. But it's something that you wrote about, which is women judging women. And would it be fair to say that Radio 4 was sometimes the women who were the most awful to the newcomers, Jane Garvey? I don't know, actually. No, I think the men were worse. Do you? Yes, I do, actually. Because how old were you when you joined? By the way, we love Radio 4. It's absolutely wonderful. Well, no, it's tremendous because you made it lovely. Slip of a girl. All those managers who are watching online. Oh, God, yes. I'll think about them. I've forgotten about them just for a second. I'm not paid enough, in my view. How old were you when you joined Radio 4? 40, 44. Yes, I was just a child, 44. So I think I was 32. God! On Radio 4? Yes. And I've never genuinely, in my career, and I hope it won't happen again because I'm as old as the Bloody Hills now, but I remember feeling so intimidated, mainly because it was a very alpha male newsroom and it was run by these huge silverback gorillers. That's how they would see themselves. And I definitely felt... I'd never felt inadequacy as a woman in broadcasting, actually, until then, because five life wasn't really like that. Was that us doing what women do, which is like, this is, you know, I've got to do more. I've got to be more. Yeah, probably. Or them. I mean, I always think of this anecdote. Virginia Bottomley once said it and she said she was asked to take on Secretary of State for Health, I believe. And the Chief Whip rang her up and said, Virginia, we'd like you to take this brief. And she goes, oh, God, do you think I can? I mean, I haven't got that much experience.  No man, half as qualified as you, would ever dream of saying that. They'd say, yes, I'm starting right now. So, I mean, there is perhaps a degree of that where all those hundreds of managers, you're wonderful, by the way. So, just camera, I think you're great. But, you know, they'd say, well, we didn't do anything. It's all in your head, kind of thing. So, it might have been. But I think James points to as well, that because there just weren't as many women in broadcasting, there certainly weren't mentoring schemes or, you know, WhatsApp groups, all the stuff that we have now, which is just intrinsic, actually, to success at work for both, you know, young women and young men, because the workplace is an odd thing to enter. And I don't think you automatically know the ropes. Somewhere as big as the BBC as well, which feels like it has all these different rules and different ways of doing things. And when you're out there, actually facing the listeners, that is quite a pressured thing, too. Because you've got to get that bit right first, but all the stuff going on in the background may not be very helpful. And I just hope it is a bit more helpful now.   Look, very easy, that's all. You made it sound very pleasurable, not as if it was... What, working at Radio Tour? Just radio in general. I mean, one of the lovely things, I think, is that you were human. You just sort of said, when you didn't know something, I don't get that, you just said again, what's that, you know, which is lovely, because you sort of hold the hand of the listener, which is exactly there in your writing as well. Can we talk about the book? Let's do that. It works. So how did it all start? So this was almost like a tennis match between you, wasn't it? Yeah. So when we were asked to write the book, that's such a pompous phrase, and I really apologise for it. But when we were asked to write the book, we did say that the only way we'd be able to write it is if we could kind of try and replicate what we do in the podcast, which is absolutely no preparation ever. It may surprise you. So Jane and I didn't tell each other what we were writing about, and we had this writing process where we would send each other our chapters, because it's a kind of call-and-response thing, so every chapter, one person writes it and the other person responds to it, and we had a deadline, didn't we? Can you remember the deadline? 10 o'clock, wasn't it? 10 o'clock on a Monday morning. It was. Where we had to send the stuff that we'd written for our chapter, and then the other person had to write the response without really thinking about it. So you literally just read it and go, oh, I don't think that's right, and don't let that off we go. Because we just wanted to try, it's not a very formal book, and it's not a self-help book, and we're really not telling anybody what to do. It's just how we feel about some things that we believe to be important. And we actually managed to do that, didn't we? Which I think we were surprised at. That was a lockdown at the time, and I think we wrote it in the January, February and March of 2021. We didn't have many options, did we, actually? No. It was lockdown three, everyone's least favourite lockdown. Yes. The really bad one. The grievousest of the lockdowns, but who knows. And so it was actually really, I found it a place of sanctuary, actually, to sit and actually get this done, and I look forward every Monday to seeing what fear come up with, and I look forward to trying to come up with a really speedy and genuine, authentic response to what she'd said. Did you ever have the conversation of, look, there are things that we are not going to put on the table, the stuff that we're not going to talk about, and if you love me, you won't take me there. I can't say. Well, neither of us want to drag each other's, you know, offspring into anything. So the children, although they're acknowledged, will always going to be off limits. I mean, my kids are 22 and 19, and their level of interest in what I'm up to is, I'll say it's quite good. So, you know, the thing is, no, I mean, the book we would never have written is a guide to parenting. I mean, I am actually astonished that people do write guides to parenting. Why would you do that? Well, also, there's always a chapter in a guide to parenting about how possible it is to find time for yourself, and it's just like, well, don't worry about it.  I don't think anyone looking for a guide to parenting just talk to my mother. She'll tell you a million ways of doing it wrong. It's just fine. I can renter out reasonable rates. Friendship, though.  We are quite competitive with each other, it should be said. There's nothing wrong with a bit of health. So how does that sort of... Jane wins. Well, we do like each other.  I find that really irritating. She's more articulate than what I am.  No, not really.  Just a little bit. So I find that irritating. We have a lot in common as well, which is also really good. The fact that we've done this together is something that... I'm genuinely really proud of it, and I'm proud of the fact that we did put a certain amount of effort in, didn't we? We did. I think for both of us, our go-to place can be one of self-deprecation, and that's not a... Now, you said I'm articulate. I can't think of anything. No, I know this is just ruining that. You really can't think of anything worse. One of the problems with that is... I was born in 1964, and I'm 57, and I'm not supposed to be a show-off. We were not brought up to blow our own trumpets, or we were brought up to work hard and to be fastidious and clean in our habits, and I'm from a lower-middle-class background, and it was very important to my family that I was respectable and that I continued to be respectable. I wanted to write a chapter in the book called If Boris Were Doris, about how Doris Johnson... Let's do that now. Let's do it now. How did it start? I think we have a fair idea that Doris probably wouldn't have been able to do some of the things that Boris has been able to do. I suppose he is my go-to person born in the same week as me in 1968.  He's from a very different background to my own, and I think he has, he carries with him, I'm going to say it, a certain amount of self-confidence which I haven't been blessed with. Do you know what I'm guessing at? That's exactly what you're getting at. But do you think eventually that self-confidence is going to be the failing of him? Whereas actually your lack of self-belief might actually be something of a victory in the long run. Do you know how weird it is for a lot of people to hear that you don't have self-confidence? I mean, isn't this weird? Do you not find it as weird as I do? Do you think it might be bollocks? No, so I think we do need to clarify it because you're absolutely right to pick us up on it. So neither of us are shrinking violets. Both of us have chosen a career where we have the courage to open our mouths and speak for a living, and both of us are really happy to have a kind of public persona. So we're not the quiet people at all, but I think what is absolutely true, and I would say this of so many women, and perhaps it's just that men can't yet articulate it and bless them, welcome to our world. Don't be shy about it. I think it's a good female trait to not believe that yours is the only voice in the room, the only opinion worth having, the person who's going to end the sentence, the cadence in life. I like women for exactly that reason, and I don't want us to have to change that. I'd rather men came over to us rather than us go towards them. And some men do, don't they? Yeah, they do. We're incredibly fond of about three men. Two of them are Sean Keith men, to be fair. The other one's my son. Okay, there we are. Can I just ask you to maybe dip into the book because I'm just fascinated in baby Jane. Baby Fee. You've got advice in your book about things that you wish you'd known. Okay, so you're doing the reading. Do you mind doing that? We're very clear we're not giving life advice. No, I know none of us. By the way, I've got my COVID pass here, just in case anyone's wondering. If you want to QR code yourselves in all the way around. Do you know what? I spent hours doing all of those things because I've come back from a little holiday in France. Very lucky, I know. But you still, they say on the website you have to do the letter d'honneur, which is just such a hilarious thing. What is the letter d'honneur? So it's a letter from the French government available on their website. You're meant to carry with you all times in France where you basically just promise the French that you don't have any symptoms. Oh, on my honour. I have not done this. Oh, my face. But it's just so delightfully old fashioned and pointless.  Do you think if they find out you lied, there's a duel? I mean... Quite possible. That's a draw, isn't it? Perfect. Right, are we doing reading? Do you want me to do the... Yes, I'd love that. You'd like that, wouldn't you? Yes, good. I haven't brought my other glasses with me, so they're very focal, so I have to do that to get to the bit down at the bottom, so I'm sorry about that. It's a bit strange, isn't it? There's no need to laugh quite so loud. I felt that was a bit cruel. It's a little bit. There you are. It's nice of you to come. Right, so this is just a little chapter. It's in a list form, and it's called Things I Wish I'd Known Before Leaving Home. I'm pretty sure that I ignored anything my parents said to me between the ages of 15 and 25, but if those same words have been told to me by literally anyone else, then I might actually have listened. So here is a list of the genuine things I wish I'd known before leaving home at the tender age of 17, released like a dove in a Bonnie Tyler video into the wind machine of life. I might as well leave it here because I suspect my children will be ignoring it. Number one, don't leave home at 17 if you can help it, spend as much time in the proving drawer as you can. The final bake will be better. Number two, if the chicken smells off, it probably is. Number three, if he smells off, he probably is. And number four, if you smell off, go and see a doctor. Number five, most of the time it is sensible to do what that doctor says. For example, always finish the course of antibiotics. I had a simple, albeit painful, tonsillitis in my 20s. I didn't finish a course of antibiotics and I went back to work within three days. I ended up with a quinzied tonsil and yes, that sounds decensium because it is, it resulted in a doctor having to pop it open with a scalpel. I know, shall I go on? Imagine the exorcist and you're there. I was in hospital in Dundee for longer than I cared to be. I've got nothing against Dundee. It's a delightful city, the birthplace of Lorraine Kelly and the resting place of the discovery. But I don't live in Dundee nor did any of my friends. Number six, while we're on the health thing, for heaven's sake, learn some first aid. Don't be one of those people who didn't know what to do. You don't have to train to be a St John's Ambulance team member. But why on earth wouldn't you learn how to save a life? Number seven, read Anne Tyler. I can't quote great chunks of her wisdom or even name her characters. But I know that all she's written about relationships and family life has stayed with me and informs many of my decisions without me realising it. Number eight, lovers will make you high. Friends will make you happy. Number nine, never sacrifice the latter for the former. Number ten, while we're on the love boat, if he, she says he, she loves you within a week of meeting you, it's probably love that he, she loves more than he, she actually loves you. Beware of the lover who loves love and good luck with that sentence. Number 11, I'd say give drugs a swerve, at least until they're legal, it won't be long. And in the meantime, if you wouldn't buy your mints from a bloke on the corner of London Fields, why would you buy anything else from him? Number 12, no one really cares about cellulite apart from you. You can't even see it most of the time, so is it really worth worrying about? Number 13, avoid changing rooms with mirrors where you can see your cellulite. Just on the off chance that number 12 has started to bother you. Number 14, have you ever, and I mean ever, not liked a friend of yours because they've put on or lost a few pounds? Did you love your parents, aunts or favourite teachers any the less when they got wrinkles? No, so please don't lay that judgment on yourself. Number 15, hugely important one, don't reheat rice. Or if you do, reheat it in a microwave until it's like tiny pellets of hardened uncooked rice that appear to be inedible, then they will be inedible, and this method makes sure you throw it away. Number 16, if a pair of shoes is too tight in the shop, they'll always be too tight. Walk away, sister, just walk away. Number 17, ask lots of questions, then actually listen to the answers. Number 18, and I wrote this before all the Boris stuff, saying sorry feels good as long as you mean it. Saying sorry when you don't mean it will turn you into a pain. Number 19, get pets and look after them well, it will be worth it. Number 20, don't get house plants, no matter how well you look after them, they'll die and it won't have been worth it. Number 21, parking fines don't pay themselves. Number 22, avoid peach snaps. Number 23, the expression, first impressions count as bollocks. I have close friends who I couldn't stand when I first met them, and I now love them.  Friendship is like feeding broccoli to a three-year-old. You do have to give it at least a couple of trials. Number 24, kindness is next to wisdom. Find kind people and stay close and possibly consider being the kind person yourself. Finally, number 25, the saying, a change is as good as a rest is bollocks too. Often in life I found sleep is exactly the answer. This chapter is short because I'm going to have a kip. I mean it's so glorious and you're going to have to buy the book to hear Jane's reply to, which is also hilarious. Just one bit from her reply is, if your house plants die, just get new ones. You twit. So you get the idea. I think it's worse than that. I've developed a keen interest in house plants. Well, we know. Sorry. Did you mention her book? I did, sir. But if you have given that advice to yourself, by the way, I do think, Fi, you did leave home at 17. It is. Can I just say that? That is too young. I didn't know that. Well, it was too young, wasn't it? No, it was fine. Are you all right? I wasn't fine. Okay, I mean 17. I mean, if you had said any of these things, what was 17-year-old Fi like?  Whilst underneath, just flailing. Would I have taken any of that advice? No. I mean, that's the point, isn't it? I mean, you tell your kids all of these things that this ground-up wisdom that's been quite painful to achieve, and they're just on TikTok or obsessing about the fact that Harry Styles only released a single, not an album. That's been a source of tragedy in our house last week. So you don't listen. And that's the never-ending cycle of life, isn't it? You left at 17. You didn't leave much later. 19? When did you leave? Well, I went to university at 18. But I was a very unworldly nerd. Well, tell us about Baby Jane. I just like calling you Baby Jane. Please not. I'm very worried. No, I was very, very innocent. Very keen on Echo and the Bunny Men. Had a coat, a bin man's coat from Millet's. Felt very strongly about a lot of things. Very much had the view that I probably wouldn't have much of a life because the apocalypse was coming. And I wrote a lot of very depressing poetry along that sort of theme. So Freshers' Week was a little bit of a challenge. I remember saying to people, I don't know why you're so happy. OK, if we get to the end of the week. But do you know what, Jane? Neither of us can lay claim to the fact that we wrote a letter to President Gorbachev. Oh, yes. Oh, let's have a little bit of Anita because Anita's double fabulous. Oh, no. No, please just quickly tell that story because it's so... Can you keep it very briefly? So ashamed about that. I... Thank you. When I was first at university, I started working with a student newspaper and I thought that what it needed was an interview with Mikael Gorbachev because that's what every student needs to read. So I knew he was coming to London. So I wrote him a letter which started, Dear Mikael Sirgavitch, we have a lot in common, you and I. And can I just say my really awful brother has read that out at my wedding? I know, that's how I know it. Still not speaking, do you? Do you not remember that we were there? I do remember that. I also remember Peter Allen. Do any of you know Firefly Peter Allen? He thought it was a dry wedding for the first half hour when it was an absolute agony. It came over to me and he sought my counsel on a number of occasions about all sorts of things. Do you think there's boobs? Do you think these people have boobs? That's sort of what you meant. There was lots of boobs. It was a great wedding. It was one of the best weddings I've ever been to. Oh, you're gorgeous. Well, thank you very, very much. Which leads us to your reading which I'm equally thrilled to hear because it's about something I just think is so true which is even though I think most of my women friends are perfect. I think it's wonderful and I think they're really, really supportive. But I know in me, certainly, there is this thing where even though you want to be really sisterly, you think that you're doing the right thing, there is this one little judgy bit and you never even want to name it because you're so ashamed of it and you just write about it. You just say, actually, this is what we do and read it because I think it's brilliant and it just made me think, oh, God. Yeah, you're right. What I've tried to do here is to acknowledge that I love, I like the least if I'm honest with you, but it's a very real part of me and it's that snivelling side of, I'm going to say a lot of women and of course a lot of men too, but I'm a woman, that does mean that I do read the Daily Mail and that I do sometimes thoroughly enjoy. Yes, I'm going to say it. We all know that even those of us who don't read the Daily Mail do read the Daily Mail. I've just remembered something. The Daily Mail wants to call me a crop-haired feminist. What they mean is we think she's a lesbian. Right. We'll go with that. I mean, God, they're unbelievable. Anyway, do I studiously ignore everything the Daily Mail? No. I've just got to be completely honest about it. Anyway, because I being authentic, I have used my reference points of the soap operas of my youth which is kind of where my thoughts went. So we were sort of immersed now in the 1970s if you can come with me to this place. In Sopland, many a plot was driven by the woman in a fake fur coat with attitude despair and what we all knew to be the burden of a reputation. Men did not have reputations or if they did, they were always accompanied by a woman saying, find him, it's just his way. Lots of the female characters in Coronation Street had reputations but my early favourite was Vera from Crossroads. If you weren't around at the time, you'll need to be armed with some basic information about the show and a willingness to suspend your disbelief. Here we go then and don't say you weren't warned. At a time when I doubt Britain had a single actual motel, Crossroads was set in a top possibly four star Midlands motel. Close to that region's dazzling motorway network. It attracted a range of guests both shady and sophisticated and it was Vera's fate to be attracted to many of them. It's fair to say a good many suitors hopped on board. Miss Vera Downend, she would never have been a muse was the Crossroad motel's hairdresser who lived and loved on a houseboat. Vera played by the wonderfully named Zeph Gladstone was a foxy brunet, I should emphasise but otherwise she exactly fitted the Nairdewwell bill. Wiki now describes Vera to my shock as a tart with a heart. And I suppose it's true Vera's suitors came and then they went sometimes with better hair because she was a damn good hairdresser. When I got home from school and was dispensed within 30 minutes or less I'd immerse myself in the messy affairs of King's Oak, the Midlands. And even my pea-sized brain was receiving some important messages. You could be a Vera, you could live in wacky alternative water-based accommodation and have a string of lovers between bubble perms and blue rinces but chances are you wouldn't find yourself sitting pretty at 65 with hubby safely tucked away on the golf course something unctious in the slow cooker and the prospect of a couple's only river cruise up the Danube hoping interview. Oh, these wrong and women like Vera had spectacular flurries of excitement wild peaks of ecstasy troughs of despair brimming with confidence and sometimes almost predatory they may fleetingly have had a better time than the rest of us but there was always a price to be paid. They got candlelit steak dinners and trips away but you knew there'd be no big white wedding for the saucy minks who led the gender stray. He'd no doubt go on to find lasting happiness with a handily placed local virgin while a haplus vixen died toothless and alone in a filthy hovel with only a schooner-ish gin for company. The hovel would definitely be filthy because women of that sort have very low hygiene standards. If her hovel had a fridge and I accept it's a big if she would not bother to clean behind it. My adolescent self was beginning to get it. Women, it's a big if was beginning to get it. Women, it seemed, had some choices to make. Do you want to be one of them or one of the other sort? Stock on your houseboat waiting for a debonair car salesman called Lance or Vince to pluck up the courage to leave his misses or a contented life in suburbia with decent dependable Brian someone you knew his way around loading a dishwasher.  To be fair the chances of me flouncing through life as any sort of temptress already seemed remote even in 1980. I think that dream finally died the night I saw Debbie Harry frunting blondie at the D-side Leisure Centre standing on tiptoe on soggy squares of carpet on the ice rink. She was unimaginably beautiful a pop goddess, simply luminous. I was 15 in a Marks and Sparks ski jacket contrasting dark and light blue panelling. Squinting. Squinting because I hadn't wanted Debbie to see me in my NHS glasses. This meant unfortunately I couldn't see her very clearly but I saw enough to know when I was beaten. Atomic union city blue and heart of glass my fists were clenched with both excitement and fear deep in the pockets of that ski jacket. This was power and it felt dangerous. Power in a raw pulsating uber female form centre stage her hands on her hips looking us in the eye daring us not to be captivated power I would never have. You see what I mean about them writing in their own voices. It's kind of miraculously true to who you two are. There's one phrase that kind of leaps out the kind of women talk about you have both been talked about haven't you if you don't want to but you've been in the papers for ridiculous things about divorce which is a really difficult thing to talk about. I don't remember any of those. What was the one about Baked Alaska what was the pudding I was really rude about? It was. They know. So I've been in the papers for Arctic role. Do you know because I know you've spoken about the divorce and you're very keen to say what up yours which I really like. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about divorce. Jane and I have both been in the papers because of our personal lives. Not as much as you know. No not huge amounts. Enough to be really annoying and if I'm honest also it's upsetting isn't it? I think it's more upsetting than you think it's going to be because you know you do live off this diet of knowing other people's private lives and then when it happens to you there's a kind of like oh that's just tasteful. You have to remind yourself you're part of the problem but I think what we try and write about in the book is both of us are very keen to not be determined in other people's eyes by our relationships be they successful or unsuccessful ones because it's just irrelevant it really is irrelevant and I think both Jane and I and I don't want to speak for you on this tool but I'm going to I think both of us are very keen to normalise divorce more so for our children than for us and also because the sheer statistics mean that there are more children of divorce and separation in this country than not so how absolutely absurd that there's still some kind of a morality attached to it, a shame attached to it I mean it's really not a news story if a relationship hasn't ended in the way that other people or even those people themselves wanted it to end and everyone's fine I mean what is the story there so we write quite honestly about divorce and the annoying judgement of other people but also in an attempt to actually have a really much better conversation about how separated families work because that's the really helpful bit is just all being able to talk about which bits work, which bits don't which experiences worth hanging on to which bits not that would help everybody it would help people make better decisions about marriage let alone better decisions about divorce I don't want my, and the funny thing is I don't think my kids do carry with them any anything like the kind of shame that possibly I carried with me as a child of divorce so we're moving in the right direction but we're not moving quickly enough I think and women do still get it more than men so I think if you did a survey today of the most mentioned men in the newspapers I think, apart from the obvious one our dear leader I think most of those other men you wouldn't really be able to know or talk about what their marital status was but with women you always do and I think that might need to just shove off the stage as well would you agree sister I do agree and I also I kind of try to make the case for single parenthood in my chapter of the book on divorce because I actually think for me and this is a very personal thing and it isn't a criticism of my former husband particularly but particularly that's another book no it's the fact that I found being a parent on my own easier as soon as I knew that the buck stopped with me a kind of enormous weight fell from me and I just thought okay well who's going to do this well I am and I'll be doing it tomorrow and the day after that and a curious calm came over me and but that's not to say that most of my friends are very very happily married and they're in great marriages and they're bringing children up very successfully and sometimes I look at that and I think I wish my children had had that frankly that looks great and I can see that you provided a wonderful cocoon and it's no mean feat to stay married and I really admire those people who do because God I know it's not easy and I know that both people have got to be prepared to make compromises and there's a price to be paid somewhere along the line no one has it 100% easy but I do think that I've found single parenthood are often a huge laugh and I've spent hours weeks on my own with the children and obviously they're women now and I've got out of it what I put in it's been good it's been 80% 85% maybe even 90% lovely not easy but good and so I wouldn't want any woman or man to think oh God this is going to be terrible for everyone it's going to be terrible for the kids honestly it doesn't have to be the number one bit of advice if anyone is remotely interested and I know I've said consistently we're not giving advice is always big up the other parent children you know that never ever ever say anything about their mother or father that is going to cloud their judgement because they won't marry to them you know he's their dad or she's their mum so and I think I think I've stuck to that I get it both my kids are in prison they're two each and two of the most lovely lovely kids each actually anyone could hope to have I think we could take some questions now I'm sure they're going to be a lot of questions now we've got two ways of taking questions we've got lovely people at our act with a roving microphone so if you're going to ask there we are two gorgeous people at the back with roving mics if you have questions because you put your hands really high in the air and I also have technology so I'm going to all of you guys watching at home I can take questions Fee B it looks complicated it says click here to view them okay I'm doing that can't see anything like real life questions are there any real life questions otherwise you're going to have to hear me wanging on because I've got millions of questions anything at all there we are officially my favourite audience member right there oh no you're wonderful thank goodness you're here hi thank you so much for this evening it's been really interesting I was just wondering in terms of your discussion on divorce and relationships I recently got married and what would be your advice for a newly married woman well first of all congratulations it's lovely advice I think this is more for you for you gosh I just wouldn't dare to give you any advice I mean every marriage is its own little ocean liner on its own cruise to its own destination so I think you've got to feel what did you just say I don't know not one of those cruises where everyone gets norovirus is it where the ship sinks I don't know just enjoy it I mean presumably I can't ask you this really you're happy to have got married yes well I mean that's a start and I just didn't you know just enjoy every moment of it and when it gets difficult which it inevitably does you just got to stay true to yourself and if it ever gets too difficult you see this is the terrible thing you're going to ask you're asking advice of two women for whom it became too difficult to stay married and you know that's why we are both divorced but you know we are happy to be divorced so I suppose that would be my only piece of advice if it ever didn't feel that you know it was this is dreadful stop stop stop now what what um no no what's star sign are you congratulations I mean you're in the very much the first flush do you know I mean are you having discussions about who's taking the bins out or how that sort of thing he just does it he's a keeper well no that's wonderful that's a very good sign isn't it the bins very very good sign can he make risotto does he reheat rice I'm sure you'll have an absolutely magnificent marriage it'll all be wonderful yes let's uh let's take another question over here thank you actually just one bit of advice so whenever we're having sometimes we argue quite a lot and he always says this one thing which is just so lovely and just takes the rage out on me we just I'm your best friend and you're my best friend just remember that and you're like oh god so that's quite nice if you can still feel like you're each other's best friend that's quite nice and that ends the argument in your house yeah well I just moving on let's take on here I suppose this is partly an observation and a very welcome one is that it's such a joy to hear two women talking as we do frequently listen to you and I can't imagine really a situation where we would get two men talking in the same frank open honest way what a lovely thing to say no that's really kind I tell you what madam would you both be able to answer this lovely ladies question about how to stay married and enjoy it patience actually I'm glad it is a really nice observation and thank you and I think the difference between radio and we have done a lot of very formal structured radio programs of course we certainly have of course yes and that's what's so wonderful about the podcast form she said sounding like an absolute idiot I'd like to take that back is that we have been allowed to just properly talk to each other and we talk to each other with somebody else in the room recording it it's a very weird way to earn a living I have to say it wasn't how I imagined my career would pan out did you think it would be as successful as it is no no they just needed a couple of women to do the BBC quite literally was looking around for a couple of women and they needed older women to do a podcast and we were just sitting there cluttering the play across to give these two a whirl nobody expected it to be but I think we do it is actually quite authentic the conversation that we have on the podcast it isn't rehearsed we never discuss before we do what we're going to talk about with each other and we do share elements of our lives that have allowed the listeners to join in with their own experiences and observations which has been brilliant and as a regular listener I've noticed that actually the demographic is wide it is sort of over the lockdown period in particular you had a lot of young women saying you know I was really lonely and we're massive in western Australia so is that right? but actually to also be serious for a moment I think part of the reason for its success is nothing to do with it being Jane or me talking it is literally your point that it proved to be very rare to hear normal conversation between women because I think women in broadcasting have had to ape a kind of male way of talking because that was what the status quo was so you know both Jane and I were probably in our other jobs on other programs much more possibly a little bit more aggressive in interviews or authoritative or that's probably the wrong word straight backed a bit more formal I don't think we ever felt that we could talk how we normally talk and and that I think my hope most women in the audience would agree is what keeps us going is talk isn't it we wanted to be gender determinative about it that's what women do really well we can just veer off and take the profound to the profane and all the way back again so it was really lovely to be able to do it and to prove to bear success because there were a lot of people at the BBC who didn't think we would last longer than 12 weeks and didn't think that the way that we talked was important and now they do so that's a really they've taken quite an interest in us now they've taken an enormous interest in us because we're backed up by statistics you've got numbers it's actually vanishing into memory slightly but the lockdown it was really frightening we have all been through a really odd and disturbing time in our lives and I think maybe none of us are fully aware of just how miserable we've been some people in this room will have been through extraordinarily terrible and sad experiences over the last couple of years and some of you will have proper jobs in the real world where you're actually really exposed to some terrible things but there were times when I would I would be desperate to talk to Fee on the podcast every week during the lockdown because we were both doing it from home at that point and it was a bit of a mental it was a life saver wasn't it it was a self help group of two well not just two I mean we were all there with you so it was lovely I think I would have done it anyway I think I would just have done it that's called just having a friend but darling it helps that you're paid it doesn't hurt doesn't hurt there's a question over here can we just pass it along the road but they may not at home so why don't we just get you on the microphone anyway hello first of all thank you very much for keeping me company most evenings I feel like I know you personally and of course you don't know me at all I was late fortunately and I'm listening in sequence so I'm currently as of last night in week 11 of lockdown which is really super weird so I wanted to ask in relation to lockdown what have you taken from that experience and carried forward for now for example my local shops and the local veg guy in Hampstead was an absolute mainstay he was joyous and happy and fabulous and meant that I didn't starve so I now go to him rather than go to the supermarket really simple stuff but is there anything that you took from lockdown I can't believe she just talked about the fudge bloke in Hampstead and it ain't happening is it now I can't believe we've got listeners in Hampstead and just one last point whatever kind of day I've had at work you've always always grounded me and made me laugh so thank you very much that's a nice thing to say I've had a great answer to that question I haven't really I suppose like no I'm not any calmer I'm a lot less calm actually I suppose there were times on the morning about and it was about this time a couple of years ago wasn't it on the morning that Boris Johnson was really really ill and I was doing Woman's Hour and they decided I don't know why but they decided the mood of the nation was genuinely people were fearful for very good reasons and so as a sort of emergency we rang Mary Berry I know it's funny but this is true it's not an answer to your question it was just an anecdote and it was almost like she was behind a glass and it's an emergency smash it and so she came on there was absolutely no rhyme and a reason to this at all and we talked about how to make a simple tomato sauce at the end of the day thanks so much Mary it was lovely to talk to you and indeed it had been but the response we got from the audience was just I just wanted to hear Mary Berry anyway it's not an answer to your question anyway it's brilliant what would you say I really wish that there was a long list of things that I have changed but I have found I wash my hands more that's been a long time coming I've rushed back into normal life to try and not have to think about how different and bad it was and just embraced all of those things that I used to get a bit frustrated and pissed off about like flogging to a supermarket to do shopping after a day at work and rather relished the familiarity of it and I don't think it's changed me enough at all actually but I think something might happen to all of us much further down the line because I think it's quite a natural human thing to just want to get back to what you know so I don't think we'll actually realise quite how bad it was and how much it has changed us for a little while longer and certainly I mean there are other periods in history Jane became obsessed by the Spanish flu during the early pandemic which you'll get to in about episode 294 a standby for that where you became a bit obsessed by what the experiences were after the Spanish flu so we could use those experiences to inform us now but as it turns out there's really very little record of that because nobody wanted to talk about it if they'd survived they just wanted to get on with it and I think maybe that's us now and also you know there are so many distractions I mean many of us have just come back from the Costa del Covid you know there's more imminent have people lived through times like these and are women better suited of course people have lived through times like these and are suited to dealing with this Not with our hormones, no What do you mean in the sense of being able to compartmentalise power? Yeah just you know separate because you did an amazing thing so I'm sort of aware because I do know both of you that there are things that we've had conversations and I'm trying to think in the book or is it a conversation but is it a conversation we had yesterday that you've actually taken Twitter off your phone because that's the way you're going to cope better with it a bit of a bore on this like a Catholic Convert but I have taken Twitter off my smart phone and I am a significant But have you kept it on your burner phone? You've completely ruined it because actually Fy and I have got a bank job later on and now it's not going to happen so I am a significantly happier and calmer person I've had 10 days now without scrolling through Twitter and I haven't posted on Twitter I haven't looked at Twitter and I am going to have to professional purposes probably use it again at some point in the future but I tell you what this is an absolutely honest answer at one point the week before last my phone screen use average across the week have been six and a half hours and that's like a teenager it's pathetic and I'm actually I was almost sick when I saw it and so I just thought this has got to stop so today I've bought a pair of shoes on Instagram I mean I am using the phone still but I am not at the moment there's so much terrible stuff going on in the world that you don't know what Twitter is going to show you next and you can see this horrifying image from Ukraine followed by some catty observation about the size of somebody's bottom and you just think no I can't do this anymore so we'll see how long it lasts Do you have sort of coping strategies that I don't know about? Carver so well I've dialed down all my internet use for exactly the same reasons I'm just not, I don't feel resilient enough to be able to deal with all of that imagery so I've never been an Instagram user anyway but even on Twitter I can't cope with seeing the body of a dead child and then just go about my daily business it's not just the shock of seeing that horror it's the fact that we seem to be impotent to change that war at the moment and I just find that really impossible in my head to try and deal with because you can open your home to refugees you could be vociferous we both have a public profile we can say things that we want to say but it's still not going to change a mad mad fucker intent on destroying so many people's lives and that thought that just spirals from one tiny image I can't cope with having that all the time so I find that incredibly difficult but your point about women I think is a really interesting one because the women and children who are leaving Ukraine at the moment so many of them are going to be widows and children without fathers they maybe don't even know that yet and so the resilience that women are going to have to show in a foreign country for possibly decades ahead is just almost unimaginable but I think it would be surely it wouldn't be a good time in the history of the world to start saying it's men versus women again we have to have a better understanding of all of those of those two different positions because it is hell on earth for the men in Ukraine being separated from their family and the resilience that they're showing is there too so I think it would just be a slightly easy strike to go we're all women together and we'll deal with it better I don't think anybody's going to be able to deal with it well it's going to be hard to make a gear change out of that I can do it has anyone got a question we have got a question right there at the back on the screen oh there's one on the screen well I'll tell you what let's get the human first and then I can't see that can I sorry I can't hear my voice the first thing is that I love how much your podcast is such a celebration of female friendship sorry for my nervousness I don't normally like public speaking and the second is how much fun you make being women seem and that's so exciting for me I'm 25 and me and my twin love your podcast I guess my question don't worry it's not just a statement my question is although you claim not to be a self-help podcast or a self-help book I think you've been really good at teaching me how important it is to say when you're wrong and that you're sorry and you do that quite a bit when you read an email that changes your view on something and is that a skill that you've had to build up over time because it's my biggest weakness for it lovely lovely thank you very much it's interesting you pick up on that because some people think we apologise too much I don't think we do and I think we are often wrong and sometimes we we missed George Floyd didn't we you know what I mean we didn't reference it quickly enough on the podcast and we realised we hadn't referenced all that terrible stuff quickly enough and we discussed it and then before that I mean I'm to blame for this I had this I mean it's unbelievable but as an adolescent my crush was Prince Andrew this is just true there's just nothing we can do about this I've got diaries five years worth of diaries why you're laughing it's a number of women with their heads in their hands because I suspect I wasn't alone well no and you took the piss out of me on the podcast because my crush was Elton John but you win because I've actually got a the thing is for about six months Prince Andrew was really attractive in the late 1970s and the early 90s and there's a picture of him in the inside cover of my 1979 diary which is hilarious the whole thing I spoke about Prince Andrew and about my crush on Prince Andrew and our podcast started in 2017 we knew about Prince Andrew then and I was still thinking it was okay to make these sorts of remarks about this man and so we've discussed that too on the podcast so we do have form in at least acknowledging genuinely my inadequacies as we've gone along and I think we're a bit quicker now to react to stuff I hope but also I think it's such a lovely point from a younger woman about being able to hear people admit they're wrong because it's just quite helpful isn't it I think it just makes it easier and just going back a bit to that point about how women used to have to be in broadcasting I think it would just have been almost impossible to say I've got that bit wrong and I'm not very good at that we had an armour on us where we had to send out the signal that we were always right about everything and it turns out we weren't and it's much easier to just admit it and most of the conversations that we have with listeners do start from them saying I don't think you're right about that and then we get to some kind of happy place eventually so it's nice that you notice that and also it's amazing that you're listening to us so thank you we appreciate it You have no idea how delighted the BBC would be that a 25-year-old woman is listening to a BBC Sounds podcast it will mean a great deal It would, yes In fact I'm dashing back there now to tell everybody of what's going on Sorry No I was just going to say if there is a question here I'm not getting it so do you want to read it out for me if you can see it Do you just not have to work it out? No Really not a question but okay Happy birthday Sort of running out of time if we've got any more in the audience just put your hand up there we are there's one here and there's one here so let's get as many as we can in Sorry we're just deliberately geographically challenging you with this And there's one online from Sally if you could murder someone and get away with it would you? Oh okay while we're coming to If you could murder someone and get away with it that's an outstanding question Great question the answer is no Oh I'd do Putin in I'm very happy to go in Under the guise of being a very short middle aged woman I think I'd be able to get away with it No one's going to suspect me of anything Yes I'd take him out at the moment That's a brilliant question How do I follow that You mentioned earlier that you guys don't have a lot of confidence which for me was quite a surprise During my PhD and even now as a scientist it's really clear that we have a lot less confidence than our peers I know of some superb PIs who just don't have the confidence of the males who are exact same levelism We all feel that we're about to get found out and it's all the big mistake So I'm wondering how you guys do live radio to the nation so if you don't have self confidence like how do you do it how do you go about combating that 99% bullshit I do think you sort of have to learn to bullshit don't you and just power through look at a man and look at the way not all men I mean some men carry themselves with that extraordinary degree of confidence which is to be admired I mean it's an amazing life skill Now whether they're born with it whether they acquire it whether it's their mother's fault I suspect it's all the viewers I don't know how do they do it and why you're an amazing intelligent accomplished woman I think you have a PhD from where I'm about to graduate from Birmingham I do yes Can I just say mine is an honoree Own it sister Why am I apologising Yes I've got a PhD To go back to something I was saying earlier on the whole and I've got two daughters I don't think we bring our daughters up to be bullshitters and I don't think we like them if they display those characteristics and I don't think their peers like them and I don't think boys like them I mean is that No no I think and I think it frustrates the life out of me that you are in any way doubting yourself and perhaps we should pack in saying things like we don't have confidence because I'm not sure that's really the message I don't think it's true I think you've gone through maybe stages of not being confident but I think you are such supreme craftspeople now and what you do you don't even think about it I think you just do it and it would be disingenuous to say that we don't have umf because obviously we have to have umf to even do something like this tonight but radio is odd because you are in a dark room on your own you don't feel I think such an immediate pressure of scrutiny but in your job you probably do you're presenting to people in a room you know to mark your work and to listen to what you have to say you know we're slightly kind of megalomaniac in what we do because we just opened the microphone here we are but maybe it's just helpful simply to know that lots of other women experience the same thing and what's the worst that could happen you know the worst that could happen is you say something that not everybody in the room agrees with or you know you don't leave the room feeling that you kind of owned it I mean so what you'll still be fine so I wish you well I mean Jesus Christ you're a scientist you're doing something valuable for the world we are chatting for money so you know please don't say that what's your PhD in? what are you just going to ask? I'm just going to say it but no you're a skill in your middle age you've got life experience normally in 10 to live to be 180 so I'm therefore the foothills of you no I take your point and I think by bullshit I meant it's about acquiring that superficial slightly superficial sheen of confidence which isn't actually real but if it carries you through who cares no one else knows whether it's real or not so it's not bullshit it's just not having self doubt or the kind of self doubt that stops you from being easy those of us who've got daughters need to encourage them to be more like their male peers and not to berate them if they appear to you why can't we just say to them be more like you two I mean let's just stop saying be more like male peers you've done great things you've done great things already you've done great things in a sphere when no one thought you would you've written books you just own it I mean I think people with daughters just say be more Fianne Jane let's take one final I think that we've got time for one more have we be okay brilliant and there was a question over here there we are sorry lost you for a second let's get the microphone to you great thank you you have a very wide range of guests on your show how do you choose them is there an element of choice yeah so gosh well there's a long answer and a short answer I'll do the short answer you can do the long answer senior partner Jane I don't have much to say we do get told who we're getting we are in quite an interesting position on the podcast where we don't get first dibs on the guests that goes to more important programmes on the network but as a result we get very interesting people sometimes years after they've been very interesting we welcome them all we get the vintage interesting people that's a very very good question and I wish I could honestly answer it but I can't quite it's so random we don't really understand how we get the guests or why and sometimes it's definitely so we had Anne Tyler our all time favourite guest I mean just you know one of the one of the planet's best writers and I swear to God I think her agent Sam our producer just phoned up and said it's the BBC and forgotten to say it's a tiny podcast an offshoot of Radio 4 which is just a radio station that's part of the BBC so sometimes we luck out and she said yes and she came on and other times I don't know I mean sometimes I was just thinking the astrophysicist Maggie Adair in Polcock was on relatively recently and I loved having her on cos she's just fizzes with Maggie and she's so clever and she just knows so much stop about a world that I know nothing about so people like that are delightful and that's wonderful but sometimes let's be honest we're lumbered with a bit of a dud okay do we all want to know who the duds are? no go on no no I think when someone's on and we make constant references in fact they also have a podcast on BBC sound I think we know and sometimes I think you can if you do listen to fortunately regularly I think you can tell in the way that Jane and I say to each other who's our guest this week cos it's a little bit we keep being promised you Edwards and he just seems to fade well no but he did get in touch didn't he on the socials with both of us it's quite flirty on the socials and he said he said that we were a deeply menacing pair but that he was going to come on he is going to? but he's not shown up yet well I think we've run out but I've got time for one of my questions which is if Alison Pearson were to resign right now and the Daily Mail offered you lots of money to take on that column would you do it? nope that was a short answer I wouldn't do it no but God I'd be tempted honesty always honesty always and thank you both very much for your brilliant questions and thank you everyone at home thanks very much