Being able to collaborate is claimed to be a core skill for students as well as for teachers. Besides the concrete how-to of using tools that enable collaboration, there's also a learning curve in how to work together collaboratively on the social level. Good experience in tackling these socio-technical challenges was gained with the free and open-source tool HatchDoc over the last three years. Compared to collaborative writing tools of big ICT players, HatchDoc is closer to a web page than to an office document and thus enables the mixing and remixing of rich media sources of various kinds as well as easy publishing on the web. This way, it empowers learners and teachers to collaboratively develop content in an OER mindset, meaning that their work is intended to be published on the web later on or being developed in the open while others can watch and participate. Hello and thanks for your interest in this video. My name is Axel Durkopp. I work as an advisor for conceptual and technical development at Hamburg University of Technology for the Hamburg Open Online University. In this session, I want to give you a brief insight into the technical and pedagogical potential of using HatchDoc for teaching and learning. Thus, this presentation is divided in two parts. First, I'm going to give you a very short introduction to HatchDoc and its potential as an ad hoc website and OER editor. Second, I'm going to discuss three different use cases HatchDoc was used in. You will find all sources mentioned in this video at this address. Now, introducing HatchDoc. In this part, I will show you how to start a HatchDoc. I'll show you the simple beauty of Markdown. First, I want to embed images, videos and H5P content and add a Creative Commons license before you publish the HatchDoc on the web. What is HatchDoc and how can you use it? As you can see, I'm at demo.hatchdoc.org, which is a demo instance from the developers in order to let people check out the potentials of HatchDoc. All you need to do to get started is click on New Guest Note without any registration or login. This gives you, after a short while, a pad with a cryptic URL you see here, which is also the URL that you would share with others and it's difficult to guess this URL. So, share this URL with others and many, many people can collaborate on this pad at the same time. In order to save some time, I've prepared a pad with some content hosted at my university as this is a free and open source software. It can be hosted wherever you want to for yourself. We have it at our university, which is quite handy and this is what I use here. So, three main aspects of this view I want to point out. You have a two-part view here on the left-hand side, which one might call the source code view. You write markdown. In my references, I will point to some good sources where you can learn more about markdown, but in a minute I will give you a short introduction to the beauty of this simplicity. On the right-hand side, this is the rendered view of this markdown, so this is what comes out when you do this on the left-hand side. And there's also a publish button that we will use at the end in order to really make this public and shareable, for example, as an OER or as some kind of landing page for whatever reason. We will see this later on. Another point that is important is for you to learn more about Hashtag. There's a question mark right here. When you click on this, you will get some help on markdown and also on the features that Hashtag has and that I cannot mention in this video here. Please look for yourself. And last thing is there are three different views. This is the one that you would probably share with others to attract them to the content and not to the editing. So if you want to inform people about the content of this document, you would share this link. If you click on this one and share this link, this might be an invitation to collaborate on this document because you show people where and how to add content and contribute to this Hashtag document. Well, that's all for now. Let's have a look at markdown. As you can see, there is an icon bar on top which is comparable to the icon bars in office text processor programs and other programs that you might know for writing. But the main thing is that these icons cause special characters. In your text to be inserted like hashes for headlines, like dashes for lists and asterisks for bold and italics. There's also some kind of special markup for links, which you can find here and all the other tips and tricks you will find under the question mark help that I showed you. Well, this is in short what markdown is. So it is a way of writing text and putting special characters in between to cause the rendering of this website here and we're in the browser. So this is also a website as this is. But if you click on the I here, this looks more like a website. And this is what I like so much about Hashtag. It's not an online text processor. It's some kind of a website generator. It's very easy for people to dive in without knowing HTML to write something on the web and finally publish this. It's always just a one pager can be very, very long. But the killer aspect, the killer feature of Hashtag is that many, many people can work on this single document together be authors of the same text of the same website and have perhaps the idea in mind to share this later on on the web for others to profit from it. Now, let's see what makes this potential of being more a website than an office document. What makes this so big? First of all, I want to show you how to easily embed an image here. I've prepared one for you, of course, cat content. This is clear and I just drag and drop this image here to this tab with my document and drop this here. It gets uploaded to the instance of my university. And this gives you the possibility to, for example, ask your class to please find all cat images on the web and collect them here. It's as easy as that. Within minutes, you will have 20, 50, whatever cat images or whatever images here because it's an easy way to have a picture gallery of a certain object or whatever the idea might be. So this is very easy. Of course, this deep linking is not very nice as I did it, but as you have seen, instead of downloading this image, I just copied it over so it got uploaded again to the Hatch Talk server at my university so there is no deep linking here. The question is, do I have the right to have this document, to have this image in my pad? But as long as I have not published the pad, this will not be found in search engines, this document. And as long as this scope is protected or something other than freely, this won't be a thing that might cause legal problems. So at this moment, this is really a safe space and you can really collect things here because they don't appear in search engines and won't be found unless or until you publish this Hatch Talk. Now, what else is possible here? Let's add a video to this document. So I scroll down to get some free space here and as we are on a website, it's easy to, for example, embed an iframe. So I take this video here and click on Share and click on Embed. And then I take this here to copy it over and paste it here. And now I have the video in my Hatch Talk document. Also a very nice assignment for students to ask them, please go to YouTube and find everything you can have on web development or HTML or whatever the assignment is. And they bring back a collection of videos that they like, that they can create, they can write things about the video here and within minutes you will get a list of lots of videos that you can use for the class or for later on or have a curated document of certain videos. Now, and this points to this iframe here, which is a classical HTML element that makes it possible to embed other web contents into a website or as you can see here in the Hatch Talk document, this points to the potential of this editor because whatever you can have as an iframe can be embedded into a Hatch Talk document given that the server where the content comes from allows embedding, but yeah, most of the times in my experience this seems to be possible. Now, another example which makes Hatch Talk, for example an interactive document for learning is embedding H5P content here. So another space here, I have prepared another example with H5P content and as you can see this is the example of an interactive video. So I can click on Embed to get me this iframe mark up here and I paste this at this place here. Well, it is a little bit too wide and there's a solution for that. I use a service that is called Embed Responsively which is great because when I post this iframe mark up here and click on Embed, it gives me some mark up, a little bit longer the mark up, but as you can see what I have from that is I will have a responsive container here which also looks great if you open it on a mobile phone. So that's it, so let's see. This is the document and if this is what you want to publish, well, go ahead. I would say we should add some Creative Commons license as it is good style or best practice in OER context. So at the bottom of the whole thing let's add a new, well, I scroll this up for everybody to see. Let's add a license and I've prepared the license generator of the Creative Commons website and I just grab this here, copy it over and paste it here and as you can see at the bottom of the page you have a clear signal what people can do with this document. Of course this video and this video and the image should be under Creative Commons. This shouldn't be a problem here because I checked this before so this is a Creative Commons document video, this too and this image is CC0 so now I can click on Publish and publish the document on the web and this is the link that you would now use for example in social media or in your learning management system or wherever you want to share this document on the web. As you can see it counts the views here and if you want people to edit this note they can click here but if you don't want others that you don't know to edit the document please think of using this scope selector as I call it where you can very easily decide on who is able to see and to edit this document. Now that's all for the short introduction to how to use HatchDoc. Please refer to the Help page that I showed you and to the features document here and also to the slide example because you learn a lot from looking at the source code of these documents of how to work with it and what else you can do from a technical perspective. After this short introduction to HatchDoc I want to talk about my experiences in three different scenarios. First I use HatchDoc for teaching scholarly writing in class. My experience is that when I start from the first session in a semester with the conception of an assignment of a term paper students have much better results when they finally write the paper than they have when they start at the end of the semester and deal with the assignment for the first time. That means that at the beginning of the semester I set up a HatchDoc document with a scaffold of what they should think about for their assignment and then I ask them to copy this scaffold into a HatchDoc document that they host individually for themselves. If they want to, they can share the link to this pad with the class. We do this with a chat tool called MetaMost that we use to chat in class. So most of them does it but they share it also with me and this gives me the possibility, the opportunity to add references that I think they should have a look at or read or I can ask them to find a good research question and comment on this research question. So from week to week I have a look at these pads and make comments on what the progress is that the students have in their pads and I can give short assignments of please write an introduction or please find five relevant sources that you think you can use. And this iteration over the development of their term papers finally ends in a good starting point for really writing the paper and my experience is that it's really fun to write, to read their papers when they hand them in because they were planned together and it was not something like, well, some surprising thing. And to give you just a short view of how this might look like you can see this here. It's in German but please just have a look at the structure of this. So this is what I do with them. I call this in document chat. In other tools you might do this in the margin but this is not possible in Hatch. So we do it this way. And you can always have some comments on the text that the students wrote here. And yeah, as you can see this is full of thoughts and comments and links that we have found the student and me sometimes other students as well. And this is important also because it makes the writing process not a so intimate thing as it usually is. It gives students the possibility to open up their writing for others in an open source way. So release early, release often and let others have a look at your writing. And sometimes this makes it better but quite often the biggest task is really for the students to open up their writing. But this is the social level that I was talking about which is important here. And here is something that students can learn from this small example to work in the open on the web if they want to. I don't force them and perhaps find out something about the advantages of release early, release often and fail often and fail fast and all these things that you can say about open source development. The second experience I want to talk about is using Hatch.Doc for developing learning material together. So this is more a staff member thing meaning that colleagues work together for example on a learning material, an OER that needs to be prepared and published finally. And with a colleague that I coached in developing a learning material for a learning arrangement that's called collaborative ideation we used Hatch.Doc as you can see here. So this is his document where he and another colleague wrote down everything from first ideas to project management, project management things up to content and as I showed before real media embedding like this timeline here that you can see is also an iframe as I showed before or an H5P element that they wanted to have in the final learning arrangement. And this gave them the opportunity to do some kind of rapid prototyping without the clicking and learn management systems in order to see this and to see the results and without needing to share back end access of complicated content management systems. It was just the link that they shared among them and with me so that it was a very, very good way of discussing every week in a geofix discussing the content development. So and well this is a very long document as I said before this is perhaps an advantage as well as a disadvantage but as you have these anchor points here you can absolutely jump to these headlines here you can share the anchors for example in a chat and discuss about certain things here and this is the sketch and this is really a prototypical sketch that then was transferred into the content management system of Hamburg-Opernan University where you can see the same thing that I showed before the timeline but this was then a certain point in time where they really copied over the whole content of the pad before they reworked in this Hatch.Document for conception and for collecting the media and then transferring it over. There was a great process without all the barriers that back end clicking of content management systems have. Besides this pad they also had another pad that I want to show because it gives you the impression of what I mean with Hatch.Document can be used to build a website right away so for four workshops they hosted they needed to announce what was happening they needed to announce where the entry points to boards and pads and other sources were and so they created in Hatch.Document some kind of a landing page that you can see here where every information for the four workshops is embedded and they could easily correct this even why they were hosting the workshops they made it possible for others to work on this document as well during the workshops and had a very very low barrier collaboration style in working on this document. This was posted on social media and as you can see it was viewed quite a lot of times here and this is another example from this project with the use of a Hatch.Document to publish a simple website. The third and last example I want to talk about is the collection of information with learners in synchronous and asynchronous session style. As you can see in the references it was a course on robotics and AI where learners met in a learning circle learning circles by peer-to-peer university and there was no OER in German on robotics and AI that we wanted to use in this learning circle for the learners to walk through as the peer-to-peer university concept of learning circles supposes. So the decision was well then let's write the material ourselves. So we started with a Hatch.Document with no content and discussed everything we knew and wanted to know about robotics and AI in the group while we were in a video conference tool with a Hatch.Document open we put down everything that we were speaking about all the links that we shared all the thoughts that we had on these links we shared them in the chat and we added them to the pad and after six weeks we had really a pad that we were proud of because there was so much thoughts and discussion points and links in it that we thought well let's go on with it let's try out what can we do with that and everybody agreed in this group agreed on let's publish this as an OER let's see perhaps someone needs the collection of these links and our thoughts and as you will find in the references I will show this here for you we made a little book out of it which was quite easy because the pad was written in Markdown and Markdown is a language that can easily be converted to other formats like HTML or PDF documents or even slideshows now what we did here and I just scroll through it that you can see what came out of this this is the content of our pad we put some work in it to make it look like that but not much because it's the exported pad and some emails that we had written together converted to a PDF document and published as an OER with the DOI so that others can use it so that was another great experience having Hatchdog as this a website like editor which makes it possible for learners and teachers alike to add whatever they find on the web collect this, put this together, create this and finally perhaps not necessarily but perhaps publish the whole thing for me Hatchdog is not just another tool with great features to collaborate on texts it is more a website editor than a writing tool for office document like texts it has the possibility to publish what you wrote at the end on the web make it findable in search engines and share it with others in a very easy way you do not need a web server to upload the website because it's already uploaded technical feature, great but the second thing that is from a pedagogical perspective even more important I think is that it is a vehicle to learn collaboration on a social level so you have to be brave and courageous to really write while others are watching I don't say that this is what one should or must do but if you really want to find out what collaboration means on different levels this is a way to check this out so negotiating while you are synchronously working on this path and this is something that I really like about Hatchdog that it is a playground to learn about yourself your openness towards others towards your digital identity on the web and how far you want to go with your content, do you want to publish do you want to keep it for yourself all these grades of working with the tool are given here besides many other features that perhaps you find out please get in contact with me if you like Hatchdog and if you have experience with it you will find my information in the references so thanks for watching


Hello, good morning We have a few regrets this morning. We'll be missing Lynn and Cornelia, but that's By and large, I expect everybody else. So give it a second. Oh Liz one housekeeping note the only sick that didn't have slides today was Contributor strategy. So if they're here, I'll maybe push them to the end. Not sure. Okay Is there a place holder for them or are we I've dropped them from the deck? But there's the place holder is if I see them, I'll flag you down. Okay If there's a placeholder, I'll see it and I will remember to check Yeah, I'll keep track. How's that? I'll just let you know maintain course and speed. What do you think? Should we give it a whirl? Let's do it. All right. Welcome everyone to today's TOC meeting All the usual preamble you've made it and I'm sure Amy will update that. So mostly we're here for sick updates and before we get into sick updates Amy, do you want to say anything about the renaming of six? It's still in voting. That is what I am saying about it. The vote is still open over in GitHub. Okay, the vote is still open fine I didn't know whether the vote where the vote was That is where that is the vote is still open. So if anybody has strong feelings about that Please go ahead and I can certainly drop that into chat in a bit in here But that's that's where we are on that Alrighty. Thank you very much So looks like first up is oh, um, there's a Question in chat that was like the the thinking around renaming of SIGs So we had a discussion on it I think it was the last public meeting if I recall correctly and the idea is to avoid Confusion with Kubernetes SIGs and Kubernetes SIGs got there first. That seems only fair for CNCF SIGs to come up with a different name and The name under proposal is technical advisory groups, I believe and There's a bit more detail and discussion in the GitHub Issue also of note. We talked a bit about the possibility of holding votes on GitHub Rather than on the mailing list and we're using this particular vote as an experiment To see how that whole process Goes and and how people like that. So I guess once that vote is closed. We should put something on the agenda to just discuss Whether we liked that format for voting And the link is up in chat so All right, so moving on to SIG app delivery Yeah, hello everyone. It almost feels in school always have to go first because you have the first letter in the alphabet So some project updates on our side. So there's a lot going on now again on the project front Our goal requested to move to graduation So this is an interesting one for us in app delivery because it's actually the first project that wants to move to Uh, graduation within SIG app delivery. There were already some commands, especially regarding CI batches from Justin I think they should be resolved now because it didn't have CI batches on all of the projects updated Um, I started to engage in the conversation obviously about other obvious things like security review and so forth um, but like as the other SIG people are here if Anybody has done or moved their project to graduation already and can give us some hints and tips. They are greatly appreciated Second project we had a presentation from gimlet.io and one chart. Um, for those of you who don't know these projects, um They call themselves a github store. We had a longer discussion about this so one chart is You could think of it more as a super powered Helm chart Depending what configuration you get in you get different things out of it from a simple Service and deployment all the way to like pretty sophisticated configuration Um, and makes it just simpler to um Not having to understand Helm and all the the market and Kubernetes markup in detail and gimleton is a graphically tool that more or less you fill out the proper values file in there Uh, interestingly how we came across them. We had from the last KubeCon this potato head project where we have like an examples for most of the delivery tools in there They posted any examples Uh, I looked at the tools that this is kind of interesting and might be helpful to what a lot of people are doing Especially as we see more people using standardized templates and then just let developers fill out What they want to fill out and the rest is handled automatically like everything obviously from deployments all the way to Open policy and so forth So, um interesting project there that gallant in their litmus Well, uh, actually tomorrow present an update and they also wanted to move to incubation The last one was just added by harry in here Noka host is looking for sandbox and they will also be presenting so noka host being a cloud native um development uh in environment More or less On the working groups, um that we have the operator working group The work is heavily underway for the operator white paper And by the next in the next two weeks we expect to see the first version So the first um bits and pieces are starting to appear right now. It's all obviously on github already. What's there? The github's working group no update uh from them so far And then on another activities that are not in here there's some organizational updates uh here so, um We have to do also some organizational work in the in the working group Obviously, we had harry move into that uc, which means that he's then obviously stepping down as The co-chair for sick app delivery Brian is stepping down as well And as we have some then also to see the assault changes coming up There is some organizational work in uh app delivery that needs to be taken care of going forward and Obviously, we will reach out to the proper people on how we can get new Especially the co-chairs in there. I think that he is he is ours um are pretty Obvious who we want to keep so all the harry offered himself over already, which is quite obvious Another one would obviously be cornelia But for co-chairs, we would have some internal candidates, but obviously need to follow the official voting and uh proposed process there to um Get new people supporting us on on network front So that's it from sick app delivery Uh, there was one question with this skinnet and one chart our one project. Um, yeah, they're one project it's um Yeah, I can that be more or less the ui to it pretty much Oh, okay. Thank you Yes, with the co-chairs Do you have like candidates? Uh, or potential candidates or are you gonna need some help? Putting out the word that co-chairs are And we should do a mixture of both. Um, obviously see the people who are kind of working especially in the operator working group being pretty active So I want to add active There is also a good chance maybe to bring some new people into the mix for those that are interested Why would especially be interested in to get people from the end user community into app delivery? At least have one end user Related seats because right now or up to now it was even mostly focused on on on vendors and especially in this group We should at least have one end user representation there Right. I also agree that um, we may want to look at Whether they are folks from end user companies want to join the sick as chairs of tls I think at least it will be great if we can help a little bit here so Um, I I'm hoping to see um, maybe At least one co-chair here to co-work with um, alloys in the future.  So I think it's good to have a new candidate here Another thing I want to bring up is flux incubation. It's right now under voting, but it has been Taken for a while. So maybe tlc want to take a look at this project and Vote if you haven't done that before Good reminder. Thank you Anyone else got any questions for sick app delivery? Okay, thank you Let's move on to what's next Sick network. Okay Who do we have? Liz you say that Sick network your favorite sick. I heard I heard You're all my favorites all of you Very good. Well, uh, so the sick network we have Uh, I've been having a fair bit of participation over the last three or four times that we've met So it's been um, it's been pretty nice There's a lot of the activity and the participation has been On initiatives within one of the working groups the service mesh working group So we we have generally take care of some some sick network Business relatively quickly in part because we've really just had one outstanding project For a while under review and that project is well the project formally known as ambassador It's you know now known as emissary ingress And so it is proposed for incubation and it is out for public review. I think as of A day or two ago or here very recently. So That's a call for all of you on the phone And not on the phone to go Show your support or or lack thereof for Emissary ingress please go out and Please go out and vote for ambassador.  I apologize. I didn't mean to make confusion there Of a lot of the activities that have been going on in sick network have been in the service mesh working group There are four or five initiatives within that group So just as a quick recap about I think it was Three weeks or so ago the group went through a review of service mesh patterns There's about 60 of them that have been described about the functionality of service meshes and um, how How people can take what what the patterns are for using those those Functions there was a demonstration of the open application model and meshery Demonstrating some of a couple of those patterns the The following week we ended up doing a review of get nighthawk Nighthawk the low generator for that's under the envoy project Some exciting new features coming to that project And get nighthawk is an attempt to Well get nighthawk into people's hands to more easily this last time that we Yeah, I may be getting confused on the which which the sequence was here, but um this upcoming time that we'll meet will be on um service mesh performance s and p and really probably um a push to Propose it for sandbox. I think that's been an outstanding item for a while. There's a couple of um Fine folks from from intel who've been I'm helping advance the discussion on s and p and are showing support there And and I think we'll be encouraged to Do even more do even more with that specification as it heads toward sandbox Other items that we discussed inside the service mesh working group are Well from the smi team or smi maintainers there's been an ask for Uh, there's been an ask for some assistance on Feedback, I think both on service the use of service meshes So a little bit of a call and ask of the sig to either collaborate on if there's an upcoming rate and use a radar on service mesh to either collaborate there or to Have tried to facilitate a different another survey a more in-depth survey focused on on service mesh things That smi the the maintainers group is Looking for feedback on where to where to focus There's been a recent proposal for them to focus on multi cluster On today if you're familiar with smi it covers four different has four different specifications covering Different functionality that you can use a service mesh for Um, and that is yet to cover multi cluster things. So But that's uh, that's about it. I think we're lining up a A deep dive for um, cube connie you That is going to be one interesting end user radar Excellent uh SMI should fill in this is from josh in the chat SMI should fill in all of the required single cluster functionality before moving on to multi cluster, but i'm not working on it So that's really up to them Do you want to comment on the parallelism or serialization of that? I think that um generically that's an agreeable statement like or that makes you know a lot intuitive sense to me that you would I the the group or knowing a little bit of the background here the group is I think responding to um Asks from people who are showing up to the meeting saying Um, hey this I think there was one user in particular. It showed up and said Istio is refactoring how it's approaching some of the way that it does multi cluster And that approach doesn't necessarily work for that that particular user the way that they've deployed kubernetes The way that they manage namespaces that had to do with the fact that they're reusing the same namespace across multiple clusters And Istio's multi cluster was expecting that namespaces are globally unique. And so anyway, I think that the group to respond to A well-placed comment from josh is I think the group is more or less responding to People that are showing up and asking questions about multi cluster support But it's a good it's a good point like There's a there's a number of other Specs to enhance specs around, you know, I won't I won't go through the specs There's a lot of specs to enhance that new ones to create as well For single cluster All right, any other questions before we move on? Thank you, Lee All right SIG observability Here do we have Give some big status on the SIG observability. So I will try to be quick. Um, the main focus right now is The collaboration with open telemetry on the incubation proposal that was proposed a couple weeks ago We have huge amount of good discussions on on technical levels adoptions and so on And the project is such such large that Yeah, it takes some time But I would like to invite everyone as well to Join us comment on the on the document we are Creating and and kind of give your opinion and also some suggestions for You know, how to make open telemetry better. So Kind of this is our main focus right now We also work on some white paper for observability. I forgot to add that to the slides, sorry And kind of related to this incubation I would have an open question to to the tuc and maybe you know to community here Is that um open telemetry is very unique project, right? Um, we usually had You know all our project that moves from sandbox moves to sandbox first and then to incubation and graduation being somewhat ready and ready in terms of all the core Components all the core You know goals of the project well were the where the find adopted fulfilled So we could it was easy to assess this right Right now open telemetry is very unique on this field because tracing is very well adopted very well You know constructed the api solid and you know very much used in cloud native Solutions, but other other signals like metrics and logics logging are kind of starting up and you know getting this motion but Not getting there yet. It's not like stable and adopted and very well aware So I wonder, you know, if it's a requirement for incubation or maybe only for graduation So this is like an open question. We we kind of the main question right now have I guess So we would love feedback on that, but maybe before this let me give Yeah, the upcoming agenda items or something in the future. We want to focus on There is white paper on tracing site for the very beginners level Kind of guide how to start with with an open telemetry and other tracing projects And we are talking about streaming apis and how to observe those So, um, yeah, that's the status from the observability side I feel like we um Sorry, I feel like we should probably try to um At least touch a bit more on this um on this question of hard requirements for um incubation, I mean Yeah, incubation is supposed to be a high bar. It's supposed to be you know The the the point where we do the majority of due diligence Sorry for bringing that up to now. I think Richie asked me also to say that He was supposed to send some email about this, but he forgot Um, so yeah, let's let's discuss this. I feel it's very It's very fuzzy. Um at this point And there might be some suggestions for you know, there might be some recommendation we can make I know open telemetry really want to be consistent across multiple signals So they don't want to incubate like one project one part of the project and others Maybe later. So, uh, yeah, there was this question around incubation here I guess my I mean, this is just me and my sort of gut feel, you know To get to incubation. We have to feel that the project is pretty You know pretty strongly de-risk them pretty, you know on its On its path to graduation and I wonder whether If if there are some parts here that are really still experimental Yeah, I'm I'm not sure what service we're We're providing to end users to move it to incubation Yeah, I'm having to provide a little bit of context So there there's two different aspects open telemetry. One is like the core components So think like instrumentation libraries that you add to your application And the second is a collector component. So think like an agent you deploy that collects and processes data So those core concepts exist in open telemetry today and are leveraged pretty extensively The the the part is on top of that are the data signals. So think like traces metrics and logs So tracing actually reach stability in open telemetry and is being rolled out across the instrumentation libraries right now Metrics are in beta and will reach stability later on this year and logs are alpha They're experimental at this point with the goal being to provide those probably by by next year There there's a lot of adoption on the tracing side already from the instrumentation library perspective and on the collector side There's adoption for both traces and metrics But the the project is actually quite large like it's not a single focused or single component or single repository project It's it's pretty disperse Thus kind of the question around the different signals and to be fair These are not the only three signals more are going to be added to open telemetry over time So the project will kind of expand and scope, but this is kind of the the initial focus for for the project So maybe one way to think about this is a little bit like how new features get added to You know existing very mature projects, you know, we take kubernetes as an example and You know, there are alpha features. There are beta features. That's totally acceptable in a graduated project I suppose there might be questions about how those are signal to users whether the you know, if um I mean, I'm a very hypothetical example suppose that the logging part actually never stabilized and and you know Turned out to be an experiment that failed. I'm not saying it. Well, I'm just posing that as a hypothesis That doesn't necessarily mean that the whole, you know Open telemetry can still be successful regardless In much the same way that kubernetes is successful despite the fact that some alpha features end up getting deprecated, you know, that's That's okay. So I guess maybe some of this is around the The signaling and the pathways that the project takes for these different Maturity I'm kind of thinking out loud that the different sub projects could have different Maturity And we're thinking about it similarly, right? So some ver is followed for the different signals themselves So kind of a similar model to kubernetes. And yes, additional things will be added So you have to be able to mark like what you can depend on versus what will have breaking changes, for example So that's the approach that the project's taking currently okay, so for biotech and the SIG observability people does that kind of And and does anybody think this is wildly off the mark to say that it's, you know, not every single thing in a project has to be You know wildly adopted and widely adopted For the project to potentially be ready for incubation And does anybody think that's a terrible idea and a terrible analogy Yeah, I think makes sense Just just from my side, I think, you know, product doesn't need to be perfect. That's for sure. There are experimental things However, my perception was and and you know, maybe I'm wrong is that, you know, that the signals Observability signals are kind of, you know, have equal importance. Let's say so if logging and metrics are not yet well Not yet defined This is like two-thirds of the project being not defined And maybe it's just my perception that has to be changed So that's why this analogy to communities might not work Yeah, that's that's my only problem that Yeah, I I believe our requirement for a project moving from sandbox to Incubation one of our major requirements is that they have to have three users With it being implied that those are production users So And and I think I think this is a good example of why that's still a good benchmark um Because You know is too much undefined is enough to find or whatever Honestly, the users can decide that right if people if there is enough there For people to be using this in their own enterprises, then it's not too much that's undefined If there isn't then it is Yeah, and I just shared an adopters link. There are definitely end users that are adopting it in production today Just the thought of this because we've come across similar sort of circumstances in in sick storage I think we probably need to differentiate between um subcomponents or standalone bits of a project versus Integral bits of a project right because you know if we use Kubernetes as the analogy um having Some function or some feature which is Alpha or beta is one thing having an entire sub project That may or may not be usable or production worthy is probably another also because Some of those things if they're not actually defined may also have Dependencies on other things or IP policy issues or all sorts of other things because they just haven't been ironed out yet um So I would probably caution about about you know if a project has a dozen repos You probably want to actually specify which repos or which components are specifically joining as a cncf project uh Everything in the organization is a cncf project and the IP policy applies to everything that's moved that's inside the repo regardless of what status is in there's no There's no bits of this auger in or out of the project Right, okay Yeah, I think this is something like we we ran across this problem also in sick app delivery When we for example the our gross admission, which was a pretty massive suite of different sub projects that were in a different state And just just recently with the current flux of mission with which area brought up right now Where they're currently in between a full version one two two version two while I'm wanting to move in this case to incubation I think we will see this high velocity in projects more and more um And maybe the criteria need to be Adjusted here or how we communicate about projects Exactly for open telemetry from from somebody actively working with the tracing part Even if the rest never materializing the project in itself has value and has has adoption. Well, actually the the metrics part I know it's also adopted by um very big or end user organizations already Just the logging part is not there So I think we have some that that's also why we have like tech leads and the do you see this as technically risk of things not actually turning out The other risk is that we won't find people and the other is organizational risk. Nobody actually working on it Well Logs do not exist. I think how to write a logging signal library Excuse me. I repeat because not like really rocket science. Yeah, this has been done before It's not just standardized there and it might take longer from an organizational point To find people to actually work on it and to have like Did the overall agreement? I think that a lot of this is really in the assessment. It's a bit of a gray zone And we will just see this higher velocity like for our goals Like the key parts of the projects are already mature enough for flux. They have a very good Plan to move from version one to version two. There's a lot of industry momentum in there People are already already moving there. I think there is no hard criteria And I think the standard project criteria do not really help that much here And like technically vision and technically stability of the ideas behind it is not really even a criteria for the project Maybe that's something to add in the at least have a statement of assessment by whoever's reviewing it I think we should probably um move on because we'll we'll run out of time for the other six But um, I hope I think that was a useful discussion and I hope that's sort of set some thinking in place for SIG observability folks. Yeah, definitely. Thank you. Great SIG runtime Hey, hello everyone well Okay, so We've been having presentations We had a couple of presentations last month um So some updates on some of the projects that I had mentioned on the previous meeting So we had On the containers and runtime space sysbox is a project that allows you to run uh containers Uh in bm or or they containers that look like bm's so It allows you to run full workloads that Would run in the ends with system d and you can even run the Kubernetes clusters inside the container So pretty interesting project. They had a presentation early last month So another project that presented is trout and that's container image registry In the difference with some of the other registries That are around is that this one is written in rust so they're targeting use cases that are looking for kind of faster lighter weight image registry maybe people running container registries in Kubernetes clusters So Yeah, they presented at our last meeting and It's still on the works and this is from the folks in from container solutions So Another project. So there's a few projects on the web assembly runtime space We are going to have another presentation for ssdm This is from back by a company from the name is second state So Yes, we have some of the virtual machines. So pretty excited to have them presenting our second meeting on thursday Another project that we reached out to is wavm They reply to our invitation and they're also looking at presenting another Runtime or web assembly runtime in and I think the focus is on having high performance workloads Other web assembly runtimes we have wasmer swam Was in time some of them we reached out Wasn't time hasn't replied yet. So hopefully, you know, we get that to present at some point In the operating system space in The Meeting next this month or the not the one Thursday, but the one after that we have a rast CTL It's a project from the folks at facebook and this is a project that allows you to Um Manage the resources on a system based on metrics So things like number of requests or latency on some of the Requests that are servers actually receiving and and adjusting that dynamically and this project is also written in rust So another just in project presenting And then finally on the iot and edge space. We're still talking to k3s. They're already a cscf project So we'll have them present at some point in the future And as far as other sick runtime activities our container orchestrated device work group They've had some meetings and they they are working on container device implementation in and in beta and They're going to have that with pot man And and they're also working on the same but integrating that that implementation with kubernetes So some progress there on the work group and and And I had a meeting we had a meeting with our new toc liaison. So So alina Is one of them and then so our new toc liaison is ricardo rosa. So the other ricardo and Yeah, so we had a conversation about, you know, some of the projects that we're working on and We're reaching out to and and and some ideas of how to Help get more engagement With the sig and with the cncf And some related events. So we're going to have a qcon eu session and There's three events that are Not per se directly related to sig runtime, but you know, there's some relation With some of the projects for example kubernetes On the edge date there's cloud data wasm date and and there's also cloud data rusty Uh Yeah, that's that's all the updates that I have for sig runtime and happy to take any questions.  Yeah Yeah It's like double ricardo, right? I think there's something very interesting about the fact that there are all these You know, uh, co-located events these side events for cube con going on in the runtime area. It seems like a really Rich seamen activity All right, cool it's pretty exciting and yeah, hopefully that that actually helps the sig and The ecosystem grow and and taking forward Any other questions for ricardo? Okay, let's move on Sig security Um, some quick updates for you all today We have the secure supply chain working group issue number 510 They are rapidly moving forward with a supply chain security white paper. It's been scoped We have a documented schedule and we're looking for a final release of that paper before cube con So keep an eye out for a call for community review We'll be sending that out to our sig uh list as well as probably the cncf list We were successfully able to merge the translation of the cloud need of security white paper into chinese This is a really awesome thing for the community We also now have apac region bi-weekly meetings. It's been going extremely well We're seeing a significant amount of growth from that community as well as an increase in the amount of contributions as a result of those meetings We're also going to be starting a serverless security Um, research white paper. So see a call to action coming out about that soon We're going to start work on the cloud native security map. So this is a interactive edition of the cloud native security white paper Um, we're going to also be sending out a call to action for that requesting both content and development opportunities from the community to contribute to this really awesome effort But the biggest update of all is that we have updated our process based off of the past five security assessments that have been performed and the feedback from the projects that underwent those Assessments, we're now calling them security reviews to avoid a lot of the community confusion that community experienced going through this But we've also made some changes to the overall process to better align with the maturity level of projects moving through the cncf ecosystem So we've got some big updates there lots of changes Please check out the changes in our repo under the assessments read me and we also have a current proposal To more formally align these new changes with the cncf phases and that's under pr 5 34 That's everything Thank you. Emily any questions from anyone? All right six storage Good morning. Um, so We had the discussion last time That we were that we needed to kind of spec out the the sake We had been looking for some new tech leads For the for the sake for a while We'd like to nominate two tech leads one is raffaele spazoli Who works with red hats and has a lot of Has a lot of background in kubernetes, of course and storage and has Recently being authoring a cloud native dr document in the sig and also We'd like to nominate sheng yang who's An engineering manager with with susie formerly rancher And he's also the the maintainer one of the maintainers for the For the longhorn project Again has a lot of background in in storage Is a really strong technical lead and has been involved in the sig for Probably a couple of years on a season since we first started So so we'd like to nominate these these two people for tech leads. I'm Going to follow up with an email to the to see mailiness or perhaps um, I don't know if this should be another one of those that goes into A github issue for voting, but I'll I'll take your lead on that and um, is the co-chair of the Storage sig I second the nomination. I think they're both great candidates and contribute a lot To the community. So I fully support it Thanks, Erin wonderful Hopefully get that closed off for you. Yeah, and about very quickly That would be brilliant. Thank you so much Um, we have another slide with a few more updates So the the longhorn project, um, we really need to kick off the dd process. Um, I Need to follow up with um, with sad on that Chabo fs are currently in sandbox. They are proposing to um to move to incubation They presented to the sig Just last week where we're getting together to to review a few of the items And we should be able to make a recommendation shortly an open ebs is Still another discussion. Um, but we haven't we haven't moved forward that One of the main topics that we're working on is a Is a disaster recovery a cloud native disaster recovery document which as I mentioned rafael I was working on Is he's also produced an overview presentation which kind of helps with the with the documents we're covering Lots of lots of Areas including, you know some really sort of technically Hard stuff like, you know, different consensus algorithms, but also, you know, different ways of deploying databases across forward for disaster recovery and Covering some of the cloud database as well as some of the legacy ways of doing them To to to provide that overview. So so hopefully this will be something that will be really useful for for Sort of end users going forward The project vineyards Presented to the SIG they plan to submit to the sandbox. I imagine it will be on the march 23rd session So that should be coming up for for a vote And finally the performance and benchmarking white paper has has stalled for the last few weeks because we've been busy on a bunch of other stuff But but hopefully we'll get that finalized before And published before keep going That's me great Any questions for Alex and SIG storage? Okay I have one other little thing from a couple of weeks ago. I said I would draft a proposed wording for adding the requirement for having some sort of documented security process At incubation level and I'm just going to stick the link to that into the chat in case anyone has any comments This is the right one so Take that at your leisure Any other questions or any other business? Oh, did we have anybody from a contributor experience? We did but I don't believe they've got anything Do you want to say hello or no no need? I think the only other thing to bring up is the uh michelle seed is coming up for Availability so the tsc is going to select a new person to replace her I think we've we've got some nominations and the qualification process is underway, right? Yep. Yep should be a couple weeks. So just give people heads up Terrific. All right, unless anyone has any late breaking thoughts or comments We'll call it a day Thank you very much everyone Thank you You


Excellent. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of The Therapy Show behind closed doors with a wonderful Mr Bob Cook and myself Jackie Jones and what we're going to be talking about in this episode, which is episode 123, is empowerment and self-agency important goals in the therapy process. Jackie, they're the most important goals in the therapy process that you will ever have. Yes, I agree. And let's take self-agency and what we mean by self-agency. So self-agency, if you looked it up in Wikipedia or from a psychological perspective, means the promotion of action. It means actually the movement of action.   So self-agency is the ability to externalize actions. In other words, a client can come into therapy highly motivated. You can do lots of educative therapy about what I need to do to develop self-resilience, what I need to do to stand up to somebody who bullies me. But before you two actually do that, demands agency. And demands something to happen. Yeah. And I think that's one of the things that often doesn't happen. We learn how to do things. We learn how to be mindful. We learn how to do all this stuff, but then we don't actually do anything with it. That's right. And then we wonder why nothing changes. Our sense of agency is limited. Yeah. And I think it's so important to give permission or help a client in the era, in the arena of agency. Yeah. Because otherwise, they may use intellectualization or passivity as a major defense against anything happening. Yeah. So in that respect, do you set homework or goals? Okay. Here we go. Yeah. So according to what type of therapist you are, if I had a guess with you, Jackie, that you're somebody who probably does set, I don't particularly like the word homework, but I will stay with homework at the moment, things for them to do outside the psychotherapy session. Is that correct? Yes. Yeah. Even if it's just to get curious about the behavior. Yeah. And I think that's great, by the way. I like the idea of people practicing some of the things that they learned in psychotherapy in the real world. Yeah. Then coming back and talking about how they got on. Yeah. I really think that's a really positive part of people integrating new behaviors and coping mechanisms. In fact, without that bit that you just talking about there, therapy might not actually happen. In other words, it might just stay as an idea. Yeah. Or it may stay in the world of the therapy room. But nothing actually happens if that makes sense. Absolutely. See, I know I've mentioned this in the past, but the reason why I love the training that I did at MIP was because of that self agency. We were still in training, but practicing. So that's, we were kind of learning about it, but then doing it at the same time. Yeah. You were practicing how to do competencies. And then you've got a placement and you've got a client. Yeah. Practice the things that you learned actually with clients. And it's like an old, what I had in the 60s and 70s, apprentice style learning. Yeah. Absolutely. Do things on the job. Yeah. Yeah. I learned, I was a hairdresser. That was my first job. And I was an apprentice hairdresser. So I went to college one day a week. And the other four days I was in a salon. Wow. So yeah. I never knew that about you. Well, there you go. You learned something. I never learned. You said something to me on Facebook. Oh, off air or somewhere. That's another thing you learned about me. I can't remember what it was, but there's a thing I've learned about you. It's about horses. Oh yeah. Polo horses. Yeah. Polo horses. Yes. Never knew that. So yeah. I used to be a hairdresser. Yeah. There we go. Yeah. So get back. I think the last video, if I remember, was on integrative psychotherapy. Now in the, in the, in the psychotherapy sequence, you need to help people integrate new behaviors in the real world. Yeah.  Now in that process, not only will you promote integration, but you will promote active self-agency. Yeah. So I'm a great fan of that, what you just talked about. But the bit is that you talk about it afterwards. It doesn't get lost. You know, so I was used to say this when I trained psychotherapists, if you are going to be this type of therapist, it needs to be followed up. Yeah. So if you're going to set them things to do, you have to jot it down in your notebook or your memory or somewhere to check up the following week how they've got on. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. That's something I say to clients as well about, you know, a lot of people like journaling, they write things down. And I always say to them, do you ever go back and reflect on it? Because just writing stuff down and putting it in a book and putting it away isn't going to do anything. You need to go back and reflect on it and see if there's a pattern and, you know, that sort of stuff. Absolutely. I used to keep way back before these, laughing to myself, way before as a therapist, I don't know what age, I don't know, 26, 27. I used to keep Daris, these big Collins Daris. Yeah. You would have a huge, each of the Collins Daris had big pages. And I, so I, I remember finding 21 or 22 years of these Collins, Collins Daris. And I stopped doing them when I, I think when I met Stephanie, I've done a lot of therapy as well. So life was a lot better. I look back at these Daris and they were full of doom and glue and negativity. And I sort of knew that was my history. But with the therapy and surrounding myself with people who were more healthy, I sort of didn't recognise part of myself. Yeah. Well, that must have been really interesting. And moving. Yeah. Absolutely. I was thinking, as you were saying that, how you now as a therapist would have been with you then, if that makes sense, if both being a room together, how interesting. Yeah. Totally. And I got rid of quite a few Daris because they were so negative. Yeah. Though doom laden. That I couldn't bear to have that as part of my history anymore. Wow. I've probably only got two or three of those Daris left now or three or four. Yeah. So I think that if you are going to set homework or behaviours as new coping mechanisms or whatever it is, for clients to practice integrating in their life, you need to follow it up. Yeah. Because so many therapists, I know this through provision. They set homework, but then they don't follow it up. Yeah. And I say, well, do you think they did it? Yeah. Well, we never really followed up. Well, why didn't you follow it up? Oh, oh, other things came along, which is concentrated on. Yeah. Or if they were honest and might say, well, I forgot perhaps. Yeah. Something like that. But I think it's a great detriment if you don't follow it up. Yeah. It's a lost experience. It's a lost learning experience or whatever it is. Yeah, absolutely. I must admit, I do make it a note of it because my memory isn't the best. So I do make a note of it. Good. Good. But even if they come back with some burning thing that they want to do in that session at some point, I will just refer to it, even if it's, I know you don't want to talk about it this week, but we need to catch up on. Yeah. Whatever it was that you did. Yeah. I remember there are many, many groups by the way, Jackie, perhaps this is for another podcast around tales of psychotherapy. Perhaps I'll use this, but I'll briefly mention this here. I used to put it in the homework bracket if you like. With some clients who would have difficulties having healthy relationships. And they had so many red flags that they missed the red flags because of their history. So as we worked through all this and dealt with the red flags, I said, okay, we'll find a shopping list of the top qualities you would like for a healthy partner. Yeah. Day six. Yeah. And then usually they found that very hard. But when we got six healthy qualities, I said, okay, now go away and practice looking for this type of person. That's really interesting. In the next two weeks, how you've got on. Yeah. And amazingly, amazingly, because I did go back until it was time, they often reported, well, I've actually found somebody with these two of those three of those qualities. That's really good. Because sometimes, especially in the dating game, I've got quite a few clients or whatever that have been dating. And they just wandering around aimlessly.  It's, well, you see, Jackie, two things. One, they don't know what they're looking for. Yeah. And B, they're often operating from an older script, which is based on red flags, basically. Yeah. So they, there's a lot of therapy before that homework, but it's a homework I get quite a lot. And I smile because I've had quite a few marriages. Oh, look at you. In the last 38 years, I'm sure. A bit of a cupid. It may or may not have come from that homework. So I'm a great believer in that work. Going back to the topic anyway, the self-agency. Oh, that's self-agency, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Putting it into practice. Yeah. Yeah. And empowerment comes with that. There's nothing more empowering than taking action positively. Yeah. I don't mean taking action negatively, which confirms a script. I mean taking action positively, which backs up a new script, a new script on the road. Nothing more empowering than that, is there? No. No. It comes together. Even doing it and it not working out, it's still self-agency. Do you know what I mean? It's pushing our comfort zone and doing something different. So it's not negative, even if it doesn't work out, if that makes sense. It makes complete sense. So if we take empowerment, now, you know, there's a continuum of empowerment, but how can I explain this? For people who come right at the beginning of therapy, who might be depressed, they may be withdrawn, they might be passive, they may have a very unhappy life, they may have XXX. So empowerment might be, right at the beginning, a new awareness. Yeah. That they hadn't actually been aware of before. Oh, actually, I hadn't realised that I could do this. Or I hadn't realised that it was okay for me to express feelings. That's empowerment in itself, I think, because what's starting to happen is you've got a germ of a new awareness that might lead to other things. So though we haven't perhaps got to what we just talked about a moment ago, which is the development of the self-agency with that, but I do think the awareness of new, like new sprouts coming along, the awareness of new parts of ourselves, or the awareness of new aspects of ourselves, or the awareness of, well, I didn't actually think about it that way. That in itself, I think, can be very empowering. Absolutely. Just that thought of possibility that it's possible for me to do this. Yeah. That hope actually exists. Now, is there anything more less empowering than the belief of hope? Yeah. Actually, we can change that. We don't have to stay in our own misery. We can actually change things. Yeah. Now, that's empowering, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah. How you get there, how you get there for the place of believing that life is pointless, life is despairing, that you have no value, everybody's got how to get to you is another story. Yeah. Yeah. But the development of that idea, that possibility you've just said there, Jackie, and to grasp hold of it, even if it's just for the first time, is so empowering. Yeah. Yeah. And I think when you were talking then about the sprouts of something, instead of having that why me and woe is me attitude to having why not me in a positive way. You know, when we compare ourselves to others and they've got everything and I've got nothing and he's just having that one thought of, well, why not me? If they can do it, why can't I do it? Yeah. And that is so empowering and the client comes back and this has happened many, many, many times. They come back the next week and say, because I often have check-in in groups, particularly I'm thinking of here. Yeah. And I ask them for positive news and they come back. I just want to say that since last week, I've started to believe that things perhaps can change. Yeah. How empowering is that? Yeah. Even if that's the first step, that nothing else can happen unless there's that part of us that believes that change can happen. Because if we go into therapy thinking change can't happen, there's no point being in therapy really. Yeah. And the therapist needs to be a therapist, I believe, that promotes empowerment. Yeah. And promotes the possibility, and promotes explicitly the possibility of change. Yeah. Not reinforce the opposite somehow. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think at times, I don't want to say I've overstepped the mark, but I can be quite firm with my clients when they keep coming back with the same things, you know, to me. And it's kind of like, well, we can talk about the same things, but unless you go out and take action, nothing is going to change. That's right. So that is very common. We've passed the talking and we'll get on to the doing. Yeah. Yeah. What you just said there is probably the most common process in psychotherapy where you have been working with a client over the same thing, the same thing, the same thing, the same thing, and it seems nothing changes. Yeah. That's when a therapist needs to change tack. Yeah. Yeah. They need to look at what is underneath the process that the person is so stuck. Yeah. The therapist doesn't change tack. Nothing will happen. I think I may be changed tack by just bringing it into the room and saying something about it. Yeah. Well, that's the first. It's really familiar. I'm sure that we've discussed this before. Yeah. And are you sabotaging yourself by, or are we sabotaging ourselves? Are we doing that? By going over the same process and process again, perhaps what we need to look at is what is underneath the surface. Yeah. Stopping you, empowering yourself or taking action. Yeah. But unless the therapist thinks developmentally, by the way, then that might not happen. If you've got a therapist that just stays in here and now and doesn't think of developmental deficits and developmental traumas and fragmentation of the self as reason why the person is stuck. Yeah. Then we have another story, I think. Yeah. It's all very interesting. As always for me in the therapy room, it's different layers. Yes, always. Literally layers. Yeah. And the bit is, and the bit, Jackie, is where you stop, where both of you stop.  If you're a short-term psychotherapist working with focused, shorter goals and outcomes of focus or whatever it is, then you have a different type of therapy. But I spent 39 years or 38 years working developmentally through the layers the way you're talking because that's the type of therapist. I was a contractor with the clients for that and I was trained for that. Yeah. That doesn't mean all therapy has to be like that. It can be short-term, you can stay on the surface, you can still do work. For me, it seems to be both. I'll see some clients on a short-term basis, but then in six months, 12 months time, they'll get back in touch with me and they want to come back and then kind of go down a bit deeper and then they'll go off and then they come back and every time it's like another layer, but they don't do it all in one go. No, you can never do all this in one go. Yeah. It's great they come back, shows a great sense of motivation and self-agency to take action to come back. Absolutely, yeah. So I think impairment and self-agency go together. Actually, they're part of the same process. And I'm so pleased that we've done this episode, Bob, because for me, it's a positive thing that we do in therapy. You know, sometimes therapy can feel quite heavy and all that sort of stuff, but empowering our clients and encouraging them to take action. For me, it's the really positive part of it. Absolutely. It's not all just sitting and talking about things. We do encourage them to... Give permission, validation, encouragement. All the really important parts of the world of psychotherapy. Absolutely, yeah. And that gives me a fire in my belly, that stuff. That's the part of my job that I love. Well, good for you and me as well. And when they're getting feedback from it, when they say, you know, what we did in that session last week has really encouraged me to go out and do this. It's like, yes. Yeah, and that's empowerment. And that's actually, you know, the development of self-agency as well. That's why I say they go together. Yeah.  Yeah. That's wonderful when that happens. So, Bob, thank you. And what we're going to be talking about next time is learning from clients in the therapy room. You kind of touched on tales from the therapy room. So we've given it a bit of a different slant. And I'm really looking forward to listening to some of your tales from the therapy room. Yeah. And also, I'm looking forward to you bringing some as well. I've got quite a few. I mean, they're all confidential. So they'll be wrapped up in ways. But I think that if we asked any therapist, they could all talk about their own learnings, I hopefully, from the psychotherapy room. One of the best writers for people listening just a moment is Yalam. Y-A-L-O-M. Irvin Yalam. He's about 93 now. He's still got a couple of clients. Wow. And he's written many, many books. I would think he's probably one of the finest, finest existential psychotherapists I know. His first book, and I think he's written many, was called Love's Executioner. And it was Tales from the Psychotherapy Room. And then he went on to write books like Staring to the Sun. I've probably got 10 or 11 here. But Yalam, please, anybody interested in existential psychotherapy or learnings from the therapy room, by his first book, which I think is really good, is Love's Executioner. And it will not be expensive, but you will love it. I'm going to go and have a look for that now. You must be able to write an encyclopedia on this, Bob. I felt very envious the other day, because one of my supervisees who's been a therapist for a very long time, and has been a supervisee of mine for many years, about how long has been a psychotherapist for a long time, so I was amazed when he said this. He says, oh, I've kept all notes from all my clients. I said, what do you mean? He said, oh, well, I always jot down a lot of notes, far more than me, by the way. And I said, well, where are they? This is sort of back 20 or 30 years of therapy. He said, in a box, I said, you'll be able to write your existential book, then one, and you're on learnings from the client or something like that. Mine, unfortunately, the nuances of what I'm talking about here are in my head. So I'd probably have to have a hypnotherapy session to start getting some of these out. Or another way to do it would be to talk with you for an hour offline or something before. So it triggers all these memories. I think what I'm going to have to do before this podcast is do a bit of meditating and to remember some of the learnings. I think remembering it is far better than looking through a book and the notes that you've took because that's more personable to me. Yes, that's a nice take on it. Sometimes I don't need the facts. I just need to get the feeling for what's going on and that feels better for me. So don't go and write it all down, Bob. Just meditate and let it come up. Anyway, I look forward to next week. Until next week, Bob. Thank you so much. Bye-bye. Take care, bye. Bye.


The Lagos State Governor, Babajli Somolu, has restated his commitment to building affordable houses that meet different strata of the citizen rate. Somolu, who stated this during the official commissioning of the Channel Point Apartment in Victoria Island area of the state, said it remains a key priority in his administration. Plastic and East Correspondents' Law of Ikuko Iedoku has more in this report. The venue of the commissioning was filled to capacity with world wishes and government functionaries. All are seated waiting patiently for the formal cutting of the tape by Governor Babajli Somolu. It is a joint venture partnership project between the state government through the Lagos State Development and Property Cooperation, LSDPC, and BRUX Assets and Resources Ltd. Dan Rishola is the Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer of BRUX Assets and Resources. She is excited to see the day come true. LSDPC did just sign this project and give us, they were here with us at FBA, they were here with us through the take and take. Governor Somolu, while addressing the people, spoke on the overall goal of the Urban Renewal Program and called for more collaborations with all other private investors in developing the state. Our doors are open to work with other willing private investors, private sector players in all facets of life, be it in road construction, in housing, in urban development, in hospital. We can't work together, we can't collaborate because where we cannot reach, the private sector also can't reach the place. And I'm also using this opportunity to say that our plan and ensuring that the opportunity in our land spaces is totally unlocked. Before the end of the year, in fact, we've given commitments that our EGIS project, which unlocks the potential, ensuring that title documents, can be processed within a couple of days and the comfort of your houses and the comfort of your offices will be delivered before the end of this year. He also reassured legosians of his commitment to ensuring decent and affordable housing for all. And so I want to urge all our citizens to be rest assured that the provision of affordable and decent housing remain a key priority for your administration. Like I said, construction is going on in several, several other parts of the state. On his part, the Oniru of Iruland, Oba Abdul Wasiu, Omogola Honlawa, commanded Governor Tawunlu for thinking outside the box. He said that Lagos state has a very small land mass, hence the reason need for the state to always convert any available space or inactive property to good use. I have always been advocating for a compact, coordinated and connected Lagos. With that, we'll be able to reduce the travel time, we'll be able to increase on our productivity, we'll be able to do a whole lot. This is a good opportunity for all of us. Let us upgrade, let us add value to those projects that are almost abandoned, if not, I don't want to use abandoned. Let us add value to them and make them to look like this. Sitting on a land size of 2,832 square meter, the Channel Point Apartments consist of two blocks of 38 units of two and three bedroom flats. It had just two bungalows and eight, housing just two different families, but thus, certainly gone with the wind. From Lagos, Love Ikuku Uyuduku, Plex TV News.