Well, let's get started with the documents meeting. I put a link to the agenda in the chat and go ahead and put your name in the attendance there. And this is our meeting for September 7th, 2021. And take a look at the agenda real quick. And since Diane is here, there's a couple of items that were sort of hinged on Diane. From the last time that are there. Yeah, so take a look at real quick. If there's anything you want to add to the agenda or remove from the agenda. Let me know now before we delve into everything. I was going to add in a note I have and I think I told Brian. I'm not Brian Bruce about it is it Bruce it's Brian in this. Sorry. There's too many bees here today. Sorry about that guys. I have a resource that we can apply to cleaning up the GitHub pages and making them look a little more beautiful from that I use for the common site. So, we'll add that into the mix today too. And then I was going to invite him to come to these meetings. Excellent. All right. Well, let's jump into what we have here. The, and this actually I had skipped from last time we take skip out. We can be here since Diane us here. So Charter update and questions. I was not around for the Charter creation process of Diane. These are more questions for you. When we look at the Charter. Um, there's some hold on. Let me see if I can pull it out to share the URL and put it up on the screen. So, yeah, let me pull it up right here. So. It was a long time ago. Yeah. And that's under the community. Uh, one. So, let me a couple of the manipulations here. They're in my screen in okay. Great. So, if we look at the Charter, this was done last done in 2019. And there's references here to CNCF stuff. And there's also, so my 1st question, I guess, is in regards to the CNCF stuff, it seems like this could be rewritten in a better way. So, do we want to actually take a stab in the coming weeks at sort of rewriting this a little bit? Cause it looks like there were some ideas that were tacked on. Like this sentence here seems like it was sort of tacked on at the end as an afterthought. Well, just originally, it went through. So, so let's go back to the origins of okay D just for a second. So, you know, there's a couple of things as 1 is we did not push open shift into this as a CNCF project because in the early days. This origin was something separate and then it morphed into a Kubernetes thing, which was a CNCF project, which is why the reference here is to that. So, some CNCF reference should be in here because we are related to a CNCF project, aka Kubernetes and a bazillion other things that the CNCF has under its umbrella now. I think what I'm going to provide guidance and coordination for CNCF project. I think the above paragraph, the CNCF projects working within the SIG scope. I think what we did, we must have lifted this paragraph from a CNCF governance document and we should change that to maybe some projects. Just the word sub dash projects within the working groups scope, because I think we started out as a SIG and it never got updated. So I'm perfectly okay with if you want to make today, like just work to change that first paragraph and make a create an issue for it and bring it to next week meeting to make that correction. And take out the CNCF reference in that 1st 1, I think that's totally fair game. I think the 1, the 2nd line is, is there Just because there are so many engineers working in CNCF projects and Fedora projects and Red Hat projects to clarify that. So I would leave that in there. That, that to me actually resonates or what we're trying to clarify here. So people don't come here and mistakenly think okay D is SIG or sub distribution or some things related to the CNCF.  So that's kind of important. I think one thing I think we might want to do is to And I'll give it a stab sometime in the next couple days rework that paragraph so that it reads something along the line, although the OKD working group is independent of both Fedora and the cloud native computing foundation dot dot dot. And then sort of inventing phase into that 2nd paragraph stuff so that we're sort of flip it so that it's sort of a although we are independent. We provide this and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is that makes sense. Yeah, it make the proposal make log an issue just just do it and we can hash it out. I, you know, I think if we change it to change that we definitely need to change the word SIG to working group. And we definitely need to take CNCF projects and change it to sub to projects, you know, sub projects or something like that like this docs docs group is a sub initiative of the OKD working group. The other thing is did we ever land on an official Word or words to describe the relationship to OCP. There's been several floating around there was sister there was it's not upstream. So what do we what do we want to say and I think that this should be I think I think what we did was a sibling sibling. Yeah, we're sort of trying to work towards getting to upstream someday, maybe, but I noticed that 4.8 is actually out. Yeah, we were. I remember Vadim and Christian mentioning that it was going to be soon and that it would be 4.8 would be the turning point. But I think actually that didn't happen. Yeah, no, unless they contradict me, I don't think that's that's happening. We originally were the upstream for OCP back in the day and then when we switched over to Kubernetes, Kubernetes became the upstream and we became a sibling. And I think sibling stream is the best way to describe it. You know, other or a sibling stream. Yeah, does that work for everybody else in the meeting here? I want to make sure everyone feels included in that. Well, it makes it makes sense. I guess then the question is if everything that the red hat does is in quotes open source close in quotes. Therefore, OCP is as well. Then on paper doesn't make sense to say that we are the open source version. And then it becomes more confusing about exactly what is the relationship. Well, there's sort of a branding issue. I know, but yeah, that's what I was going to bring up right now. Open shift is no longer. Yeah, no longer one thing. Right.  And yeah, so what's open source about origin, which is what's in the origin repo is what we are the sibling stream of. So, you know, the only thing that and the thing that the code that in I'm trying to figure out how to word this best because it's words with the origins code runs on rel. Right. So you, you need an open source or you need an operating system that's open source to make a true open source distribution of open shift. And that's what OKD is. So it's not confusing. Yeah, I'm not confusing. No, no, no, no. It's only taken me eight years to get it out that way. But it is really, it is. I think the more interesting thing about this distribution is its relationship to Fedora CoroS. And that's what makes a true open source distribution of, you know, because otherwise you're constrained to rel and if someday they came out come out with a rel that's licensed in a way that could be open source. Then that then what Bruce what you were describing. Yeah, the code may or that's in the origin repo maybe open source, but the thing that it runs that it's required one of the other required pieces components isn't yet. Okay, so that's that was a can of worms question, but I think it provided at least a little bit of clarity on what we should put into this. I mean, the word upstream is, I guess is, well, since version four, it's never been true. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So in what we use internally to describe this and there are other projects that are similar to this that are that have a sibling stream approach as well. And I think you're going to see ACM and OCM advanced cluster management and open cluster management have some semblance of a similar thing. Going on, but we'll we'll see how that all plays out to another thing that caught my attention in this was the little statement that says things that are out of scope would be initiation of new open source projects. Do you have any sense of what the history of that item is just for my eyeballs highlight that line on your screen. There you go. Yeah, so I think we would not be, for example, kicking off as an OKD working group, our own version of say a monitoring project like Prometheus or that that what we're trying to do in this working group is work on OKD and the OKD bits and parts. That's, you know, that was and I think that comes also from some guidance we got from the CNCF reviewing what the CNCF was doing and what some of the other projects were doing to is that we really wanted this group to focus on that just OKD. So just picking up on that time. If we go and create a OKD operator project, is that not new open source project? Well, operators is a nice new can of worms and it has its own community. And I think what we talked about at the last working group meeting and I tried to get Austin McDonald, who's come should be back for our next working group meeting to come and talk about how to get it how to build a better relationship with the operator framework community, which is a CNCF project, which is where if we were going to do something operator ish, we should work with them or be a sub project of that community. And so that actually would be out of scope. I mean, we might be able to kick off a discussion group or a working group around it.  Then we would go. This is my opinion. I have lots of them. We all have them that we should go and work in the operator framework to do that work. Like, you know, sometimes you'll see rancher and the K3S folks go and work in the Kubernetes place to get an extension to make something work with rancher. Those those kinds of things that that would be my clarification for it. And so for me, and this is for me because I think I was around definitely when this was being written and copied and pasted from other places. That line still rings true. And because we are so closely tied at the hip to OCP as a sibling stream. It's this difficult dynamic where we even inside of Red Hat push our people to contribute further upstream if they need something to get into open shift, like go put it and put make it available to everybody, every Kubernetes or every operator framework person, rather than put it just an open shift. And because just an open shift means so much more than just putting in creating open source project. And that probably didn't help at all. But hey, yeah, but I think there it's again complicated, I think because there's a whole pile of operators that we have on a issue in OKD that we've been talking about for a long time. And it's many of these operators on the OCP side seem to be part of open shift, like serverless, for instance, is one that keeps coming up and came up with a through my email this morning. And it looks like it's sort of at this point, practically trivial to get it onto quay. And it's sort of been that way for many months. It looks like going through the the issue. But it still hasn't happened. So that so to me that is not a new project. But is it a project that's an OKD project? Or is it a serverless team project or serverless project? Well, if you can get them to do it, more power to you. Yeah, so but I think there's another issue here. So there's the individual operators. And where possible, they should be in the community hub rather than any special one. But there are a certain number of operators, which as Bruce said, are quite tied to the OCP product, pipelines, gate ops, things that are in the registry dot red hats sort of repo. And then to make them appear, we need another OLM catalog, which would be an OKD project that we possibly wouldn't want to give to the operator framework team. It's going to be the OKD catalog that replaces the red hat catalog in OCP. So I think that there's a distinction here that I have in my head between an artifact like a container or a catalog specific to our community or our ecosystem versus a full on project. Okay, so that's that's that's, I think, what when initiation of a new open source thing. So if we have to create an artifact, such as a catalog or a container or an image, or and we have to work with other people and coerce them into building it for us and maintaining it. That's a different ball of wax than initiating a new open source project. Yeah, I guess it's, I guess it's equivalent to Vadim's install a repo. It's something that he had to do to make OKD work, but it's an asset in the OKD project rather than a separate project. And there's a reason they call it artifact hub in the CNCF because they're getting and at first I was completely resistant to that. I wanted it to be operator hub, you know, because everything should be enough. But then once they kind of explained it to me a little bit like the thick skull I have. The idea of artifacts versus simply operators operators are artifacts and there's helm charts are artifacts and those things are artifacts. But this line that he's got highlighted here initiation of a new open source project is different to me. So, yeah. So that that's just around that one line, but I and what it means to me is that there's this a log jam around collaboration and build processes of those artifacts, which is what I'm trying to get the I think I said in the last working group meeting is trying to find a person from the operator framework group to either come or tell us where to go, not where to go, but where to go. Which meeting to go to to get this work on log jammed together and I've asked Austin with Donald to come. Think he's done with his class on the 10th, which I'm not sure that so he should be able to come next to the next working group meeting. So I guess what I'm taking from this is the content of this current document. If we don't understand it and we've been part of the community for a while, but it suggests that it does need wordsmithing to add clarity around the finer points that we've just discussed here. So we do need to sort of make sure that it's from somebody new. It actually reads and they can understand the final nuances of what what the doctor means. Yeah, and I agree with that Brian I think that one of and the reason I brought this up was as okay D becomes more solidified and there's some things I'll be talking about towards that I'll be bringing to the group towards the end of the meeting. That there's more of an interest, there's an increasing interest in making okay D more stable and better documented. And as that happens, the charter and the processes are going to become more and more official and real, as opposed to things were kind of wavy in the beginning and whatnot. So I think it would be good to revisit this. It sounds like folks have interest so we can work at updating this and then seeing if that aligns with process and see if process needs to change with the larger group. So an example of that is this, this says here about membership that membership is actually determined by putting in a a issue and saying that you're a member. And then that gets recorded in the members md file. We've not done that for as long as I've been part of the group. No one's actually done that. And so modified for two years. Right, exactly. So I think the question will have to come to the group with some larger questions on this, even before we modify the document is, do we want to still follow this process? And if so, then we need to vote, or we need to start doing that process, or the larger group needs to vote to say no, actually we want to change the charter, because this process is too onerous or there's a better way or something like that. And that that I think that's the first stuff editing out the CNCF and the sig words that I think we can do in a quick issue and get that through whether or not we want to go to this membership dot members dot md format and start using this because we don't really currently vote on anything. We haven't. And I think you're right. We've hit a maturity level and an adoption level of OKD out there in the world where we may want to do this.  We had, we, we are close to that, I think, I think we're close to that. So it's not a bad time to revisit it. And if so, then get everybody to do this that considers themselves an active member. And that would be not a bad thing. All right. Well, then I'll add it to the agenda of the main meeting for next week, just a little bit of time to introduce this issue and see what the main group thinks. And anyone else that's that's on this call, I'll take a stab at some of the stuff up towards the top here. If anyone else wants to as well. Yeah, I would, I would ask you to keep it as simple as change is possible, you know, because this did go through a legal review. And I'm hesitant to ask Red Hat Legal to do much more than look at it again quickly because that takes time. All right. Okay, before we move on, is it worth having a separate repo for five documents? Or should this be merged into the OCD main repo or? I think it's having it separate. That's an interesting point because we've got the community, which is the, the working group stuff and actually the meeting notes. Maybe it makes sense for the meeting because we talked about, oh, the meeting notes are in the HackMD, but they could be in the OCD.io or they could be in the community one. It is kind of distributed. Yeah. Yeah, I am not an expert on documentation or where things should go. This is probably pretty apparent. The hesitation I have about moving this out from the OpenShift repo itself is that the OCD one, the OCD.io repo where we're going to go on to the next topic here that we've now got that is in a weird wonky repo directory too. It's OpenShift-cs, which actually stands for customer success. It was the team that, the website team that worked on it with me and created it ages and ages ago used to be called the customer success team. And now they've been changed their names 10 times since then. So I think it's more likely that the OCD something has to give, you know, and it's a bigger conversation about where. A solution might be to rename this to be the OCD.io in OpenShift community and to archive the one in OpenShift-cs. I think that would be my druthers, but then becomes the other problem of permissions to do anything because then the OpenShift repo basically is 99.9% Red Hat engineers. Who have permission to do anything. There might be a few non-Red Hatters who are associated like with Fedora and Linux that might have permission. I don't even know, but I would say. So that's the other thing. So it's freedom versus respect, maybe. How's that? That brings up an interesting point though. So if we wanted to do the agenda items and have the chairs be able to modify the members file, wouldn't the chairs all have to have? Yeah, I don't know. Well, I guess they could submit pull requests to the community repo. But for me working on the agenda, I wouldn't want to submit a pull request and work on the, so either I would need access or me being representative of anyone who's not part of Red Hat. Those chairs would have to have access to that repo to the community repo. So I think the bigger, I'd like to have a conversation about that with Vadim in there because he is sort of our liaison to the engineers who have the privileges to do all of that. And that could be the next working group meeting and add that into the agenda about how can we, this rag tag bunch of repos, how can we make them into a more respectable and still have the ability to edit and do what we need to create a site underneath this. Yeah, because, because, because I guess we want to consolidate where we can. I mean, but also like bring Vadim's installer from his personal GitHub into an open shift and okay D repo. So yeah, it sounds like we do need a discussion around our use of GitHub, which will come into all the permissions and ease of use and but I think it's worth just trying to remove. I mean, I don't see a point of having a repo with five documents in where we can have a document repo somewhere else where everything's kept together so. And maybe the answer is just to move all this under okay D dot IO and get move okay D dot IO out from open shift dash CS into its own GitHub tree of things at this juncture and then that would be. Yeah, and I like that idea that that one sort of resonates with me. Okay, so I don't we're at halfway through the meeting. I do want to get to the other things. So I've added repo discussion added to the main meeting agenda. Yeah, beta site. Brian, do you want to give us an update? I think you were waiting for Diane to push some buttons. Oh, okay. Diane actually gave me permission. So I pushed the button myself, but I actually put the link in. So if you just click that link. And let's take a look. And this is the repo that that Brandon, I'm hoping will be able to help us make pretty. Right. So the first thing you've noticed, I have totally removed all of the middle man. I've totally removed bootstrap. This is a pure. Markdown site. So everything about okay D banner is now comes from Markdown. So we can go and change the homepage. We can change all the documents or just markdown now in a git repo. And if you go to the very little top to the left of the search. And you'll see a little toggle switch. So we've got light and dark mode and depending on the browser, it should automatically pick up your systems preferences and just switch automatically. If you shrink it down. So if you just move the browser to the just shrink it leftwards, it is fully responsive. So it can be used on a mobile. If you just keep going, just keep going more and smaller. Just imagine it's like a mobile phone size thing. You'll find that the sidebars vanish and then you would get a hamburger menu and it just sort of it's all responsive. So I think this is now a point that if people agree that they like this, we need to get people to test it play with it. You notice I did move the menus from the top to the left because I found that getting around the place required two clicks. Now we can just expand the section. So if you're looking for stuff, you can just go and expand the section trying to work out where stuff is. So my next point is to now populate it with primarily what's on the original site. So the question, do we want a landing place for documentation? I'm not happy that we just jump out of the site and sort of abandon the OKD site to go into documentation. I'm just wondering, do we need sort of a landing site with a link to the documentation rather than just busting out? Click on documentation again. Just show me quickly what it does when it goes there. I mean, I'm OK with it going to that other site because it means that Michael Burke keeps maintaining it. The guy is not on video right now, mostly because it's something that's generated. Oh yeah, I'm not saying move that content here, but I'm just saying, do we want a page that then gives you the option that this is going to the documentation site? Or documentation landing page? Yeah, go for it. Yeah, that would probably be good. So yeah, I think you're right about that. Yes, I'd agree with that. And the other question I have is these things that say temp content community etiquette, is there stuff to grab and put in there or do we need to create that? Well, we were going to, you were going to look up Diane the rights and responsibilities type stuff from other communities. Okay, that's on Diane. All right. Yeah, that was because I think the gist was that we wanted to get something that is, you know, like the CNCF has has a nice guidelines basically in code of conduct and whatnot. And I think that having something there would be good.  I would actually add a code of conduct under help or somewhere community etiquette and then just we'll grab a code of conduct and put it in there. But yeah. The other thing that we had from last week, which was we were going to ask for you is do we need any legal notices copyright license? I know there's some other open source sites. Have that in the footer. I didn't know whether we had any legal requirements or we wanted to go to the okay, the existing okay, the site for a second. There wasn't anything on there either. Yeah, I don't think so. I don't want to make it anymore.  The only thing I did it. Yeah, I took out that powered by open shift because we're powered by get up now. Yeah. Well, I tell you the minute corporates corporate branding sees that logo at the bottom. They're going to yell at me anyways, because it's out of date and open shift online. I don't even think is a branded thing anymore. It's now. No, I think you're okay the way it is. I actually like the way it looks. So the missing pieces that you need me to do is how to ask for help community etiquette. Let's walk through it from the top. What's what do you need to pull over still Brian? Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of stuff. I mean, I was really focusing on the styling and getting the CSS right. So I've not really been looking at the content. I've just started moving the guides across. I haven't actually pushed it yet. So I've just started moving the guides, which is under the getting started. We've talked about moving the content from OK D main repo. There's that big read me there, which has a lot of stuff in it. So some of that stuff will come into the installation. And I believe we want to talk to Vadim in terms of what he thinks should be in this section. And because he created that initial thing and blogs or more or less I've moved across with there. Then it's the community stuff and it's the community contribution stuff, which a lot of it. I think we're going to have to create from fresh. I want to put a section in about how to update the documentation so people know how to actually use MK docs and make it really easy to get people to do that stuff for next week. I would focus on that so that everybody gets to see it. But I think if we run this by it looks great. Thank you for it. First and foremost, is there anything then if we get any styling or CSS issues that you can't handle or you don't have time to handle? That's what I think the third party contractor I have. I'm not a web front end developer. So they want to come in and do it properly. I think you've done a very good job, to be quite honest. What I would say is let's show it to the larger group next week, get their feedback. If they say, oh, that's ugly or that doesn't work or that's not working for them on their browser or something. Let's let the third Brandon work on those issues for us. We can even tag him. He's got a luminous coder. You'll see him in the OK D repo and or maybe other repos every once in a while. So he could he could do those things. But I think the stuff where we have to create the content, he doesn't know enough about who we are and what we're doing to do that other than maybe a grammar check checker. And I think one thing we can do is Vadim hasn't been able to show up to the last two main meetings at the next main meeting. If he's there, we can talk to him about splitting that stuff off of the OK D repo. Read me and some of which will go into installation, some of which will go into night, you know, nightlies, whatever we want to call the, you know, the stuff related to the nightlies for four eight and whatever. So, yeah, I think the larger group and also seeing if we can pin down Vadim to really give us his perspective on sort of breaking up the the installation instructions and stuff that's in that. OK, do you read? But I mean, I said, once we've got the instructions there, the idea is then that this should become a very dynamic site. Everyone should just be able to add content quickly. And even if you just want to put something on the heading that don't install four eight one because it's bussed this week and then next week when we fix it, we can take the thing off the homepage. We can do things like that very, very dynamically. It's not difficult to do so. Excellent. All right. Is there anything else on that before we move on? We got a handful of other things to get to. So there really is. So we're saying there's really nothing in terms of like copyright or anything like that that needs to be added to it. If so, then we can just strike that and not worry about it. OK, so delineation of resources for the working group and OK to users. We need to change that text at the top and give that to Diane. So we've been kind of putting that off as we worked on other things, but I will work diligently on that if anyone else wants to chip in. I will do it as a as a document. Maybe in the okd.io repo or something like that. And then this will be the text we put at the top of the Google chat group that makes it clear that that's more for working group business and then also change the text in the Slack channels to point to, hey, create a discussion item. And, you know, we mentioned this last time Vadim has really been doing a great job of. Transitioning stuff to the discussion items that really aren't bugs. They're not issues. They're discussion items because it's someone needs to know how to do something or something like that. And I think we're narrowing in on a very efficient process. Yeah. And yeah, this is that item Diane for look into the working group guidelines and conflict resolution. Yeah, now that you have, if you get Brian, if you get the mk docs documentation in, I will grab those things and I will try by next Tuesday to get that in so that people can see it and we can look at it as a group as well. See if that works for folks.  Yeah, and I was just thinking that something that I didn't see in our process that might be useful is with respect to docs. Okay, which is that. Whenever, in theory, whenever there is some confused user that had to put in a discussion to get themselves out. Then the doc should be adjusted so that they wouldn't have been confused. And that sort of analogous to the philosophy that whenever you find a bug manually you put in an automated test. So that you don't get a regression. Yeah, and I've been kind of doing that summit. You'll notice some of the things that pop up in the agenda are things related on like repeated questions. And so it like at the main meeting I'm going to bring up the topic of single node clusters and also bear metal because we're getting a lot of requests in terms of documentation and in terms of issues in regards to both of those. And I think we need to flesh those out because a significant number of okay to users are looking for homelab single node cluster, you know, and sort of the minimal installs and bear metal right and stuff like that. So we need to up our game in terms of documentation because we're getting a lot of questions and a lot of issues that are based on sort of lack of documentation and some things that have not been tested. In theory the single no stuff should be easier with 4.8. It is but I don't know if you caught that discussion of the past couple days. Vadim was under the so when our FAQ, it says that you can do a single no cluster by just setting in the install config. The number of control plane, the one and the number of compute to zero. That actually doesn't work in 47 not in 47. Right and no one really knew that because it hadn't actually been tested and someone brought it up as an issue. Vadim actually I thought it was clear because like certainly in all of Charles single node installs that he's been doing for the last year.  Right and that's it dawned on me like well yeah why are we why is Charo having to do that. And when there's this it hasn't been tested and sure enough that's the issue so it does work with eight I tried it actually earlier today and last night. So it works on for five. It does not work on for six or four seven. It does work on for eight. So we'll need to update the docs on that and up and up our game in terms of testing to catch those cases. Yeah well it's actually a feature in for eight. Right. I'm surprised I never tried it on for five because I don't think it was a feature then. It wasn't a feature and that was actually something for OCP that was touted as a feature was single node clusters right. But yeah back to your original point yes I think each I think it's an iterative process that each time we come across something. And folks should if I don't catch it if there's like something in the chat or email or you hear it someplace else that we're lacking in documentation or we're lacking in testing of something. Like please bring it to our attention so that we can add that in as a test as a as an improvement. Well it's tricky because you get hidden assumptions. Right. Like I sort of assumed that everybody knew this thing that that I originally learned a long time ago from Charles and I'm wrong. Right. Exactly. And that happens to me a lot of times in reverse. So yeah and I appreciate that about you Bruce. You've brought some things to people's attention over the you know past year or two that's been like well this is supposed to work and it's not or you know it says here in the documents you know and that's been really helpful. Okay so we're punting again on name and scope of the installation doc because Vadim wasn't at the last meeting I'll put it on the agenda again for the next meeting. The inclusive language update Brian you're sort of hinging on the folks that. Yeah so I have a little update on that I don't know if Brian, if you've gotten any feedback from them. I think we close that ticket. Yeah. That goes away when we switch to mk docs we have to rename the master branch to main when we do that switch over. I'm making sure that all the content that's in there is appropriate. So once we do the switch over, we rename the master branch. We set the CNAME tag redirect it and then that ticket goes away. Yeah, I think that. Thank you for summing up. And the other thing is I know that will Yuri's in on European time will Gordon just went on PTO, but Yuri is waiting for us just to say when we want to repoint the site over to that. It's just a DNS name change. So as soon as we get our content in there and group approval. We can make that happen and it, you know, whatever it takes 48 hours once that the full over goes and the sooner the better in my humble opinion. So, and that's why getting if we need Brandon to give you a hand Brian. Just ping me and chat and we'll make this okay the middle man thing go away. Very far away. The one thing it should probably be pointing out for folks that are watching this is that when we say that the ticket will be closed that doesn't mean that we're going to stop. At least that the documents group isn't going to stop like continuously scanning docs for things that need to be made inclusive. And we're not going to, you know, in fact, this came up. I think in what we put at the top of the Google discussion group and at the top of the slack may want to reference the code of conduct. Flash community guidelines stuff and have a reference in there to the inclusive language because I am noticing in the chat. There's a lot of hi guys, hi guys, hi guys. And although there's the CNCF has that bot that like says maybe you know, it would be better to actually have something ahead of time not after the fact. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't want anyone to get the impression that we're just going to be done with it after this. It's some it's an ongoing process right to use to make sure docs are up to that standard. Create build doc outline for Vadim. This is going to be Brian and I, we're going to hold off until the beta site is ready until Vadim can attend a meeting and we can and and Vadim has time he's incredibly pressed for time right now. And so we have to. I think Brian and I will do most of the work and then just run it by Vadim. The upgrade path notations Bruce that was yours. That was a discussion last time. Yeah. And I remember that was referencing. So the idea was that we would actually flesh out upgrade pads because there was you did find some documentation. On upgrade paths and and could we turn that into a like a table or something and can we better understand what red hat meant. And it was partially just defining what the notations meant. But there are some related things like some things that have come up recently is that. And. Okay, there's, there's, there's basically three places where a version of F cost comes into play. And at least like the way I built things on vSphere. I start off with a version of F cost that's in a. Where the ISO is mounted to, to initially boot the host with. And then that one pulls down a version that's referenced. In, in the. The initial ignition sequence. And then that. Assuming that boot and everything bootstrap and everything makes it up, then it pivots to a current version. Right, but actually interestingly enough, the team. Last week in a conversation was said to someone, well, we're not really using a version anymore. Because it gets modified. And it's a rebuild, basically of the month. So it's interesting for folks that don't know the way the in the OKD installer works. It actually downloads a version. Of it, you started with your additional version of F cost, which is. Downloaded directly if you're using IPI or you have to manually provide, if you're doing up. That gets booted into then a new version of F cost gets created. With tweaks for OKD and then it boots into that version. And then there's more stuff that gets installed on top of that. Right. So, yeah. And so it's not even. The documentation needs to be clearer about what you're starting with and what you're going to end up with. Because the question that sparked the team. To respond was that someone asked like, well, when I do the OS RPM tree. Command to look at the version. It doesn't jive with what. Is it is it version that's out there like available for downloading. You know, in the end. Right. Well, in the end, right. In the end, it's a referencing some machine config something or other. But along the ways, depending on which versions you get, some of them don't work. Right. And there's a variety of things that can happen. Like when you when you go from. One major release. Like 32 to 33 to 34 to 35, whatever. Then you can get into things where the keys don't work. So, so when it downloads it, they can't confirm it because it's, you know, they've updated the keys. And just down, downgraded, haven't we, because we have so many issues with networking. I believe I went back back a level. Right. Network manager. Yeah. Yep. Gotta love the, yeah. So there's so in instances where. Now, I think, I think that those things are made into the frequently asked questions of, hey, this version of F cost doesn't work for these versions of OK D. Right. So slowly, slowly, we seem to be improving those sorts of things. It might not. That sort of stuff that would be useful in the installation information information or a given release is what things you have to use when it. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So this is a question to Michael. Is there any way we could get. A versioned set of documents for OK D like they do for OCP because we only ever get the latest. Anybody's currently on an earlier version. We couldn't put that information in. Good point. Like, are you still around. He's on the stream. He's there. Yeah. He's here. He doesn't have an answer. I'm asking different. Yeah, so like, if you go to like between 4, 7 and 4, 8 or, you know, can there be different, you know, minor version. Document loads. You don't see why not. We did that for 3. Yeah, so he did version for 3. Right. Yeah, because if you look at the list, we've got all the 3s, then we certainly just yeah. Can you look into that for us and generate that that would be pretty bloody awesome. And that would, but yeah, then we'd have to review them too. But also isn't it time that we remove some of the 3s because they're no longer. I would like to grandfather some of them or grand, grand, grandparent some of them. I think, but I don't think red hat supports any of them. At this point, no, there's in the wild. That's the problem. Right there. Michael is is 311 still documented anywhere for OCP. Yes, there's still supporting. Yeah, I've just looked at the list. We go back as far as 1.2. We could take some of them out. What is on the list Michael for OpenShift? How far back do they go for OpenShift? The question. For a minute. It was back to 3.0. Yeah, so if we could make maybe what we need to do is send a notice to the first find out. If you can add more variations on 4.x. And then do a notice to the mailing list saying, okay, we're going to grandfather the documentation prior to 3.0. We're going to stay in line with whatever OpenShift has for documentation. Otherwise use the way back machine.  Just do a notice and that from the OKD working group docs and socialize it at the next these ideas at the next working group meeting next week. Jamie will do and say that this is our intention is to do this and if anyone has any objections. Let us know.  Go ahead. Michael, just to get a sense. Do we have the so right now the way things work is you're generating with a script. The OKD docs off of the OCP docs and just changing the names out. We put in a ticket for like a minor tweak here or there. Can we actually put in a ticket for like a new page to be created? Or anything like that or is it or are we just being limited to tweaks of what gets generated? Definitely a new page. OK. Tire books. Sam was inside of a book. Don't tell them that. That's a new project right there. An OKD book. No, it's an artifact. All right. Actually, you know, there are a number of books out there that are, I don't know could be OKD books. Yes, that are sort of, you know, like free for download red hat. Oh, PDFs or buy it from O'Reilly or whatever. Those I don't think it's been updated. What's what's that Michael? I'm sorry by books. I mean, if you look at the doc start OKD.io site. Everything in that table contents on the left side. What's new architecture installing. We call those books. Selective version. Yeah, look at that. These are all books, right? Because these are all separately accessed. Right. Exactly. Anybody wants to write an OKD O'Reilly book. Let me know. And if you have that much time on your hands. Don't tempt me. I'd be totally game to get into that with you, but I think that's another whole life. Yes. I want to close out. We've got one minute left. Just so folks know. We were approached by the red hat team. That's basically building off of a Kuvert for the virtualization stuff in OCP. And they want it to work better on OKD. So we will be talking at the main meeting about this next week. But if this is going to come into play in terms of documentation, making sure that we promote and encourage and test documentation relating to using Kuvert for virtualization on OKD. So just wanted to throw that out there real quick. Does anyone else have any last minute things before we sign off? We have one minute left. Can you read the outreach to the mailing list about pruning the older versions? Whose action item is that? That's mine. I'll go ahead and take that. Okay. What I would say about that is, Michael Burke, if you can let us know that it is posted officially that it is possible to add the 4.x. Version. I will do that. Then send the email out. We'll do Michael and I will. All right. We are at time. Thank you so much, folks. And I appreciate all of your hard work. See you next time. All right. Thanks, Brian. Take care. Big time.


I'm safe for now anyway. I'm Elitio Frosi. And right, so we are talking about Satan, but that's not the thing you eat. We are actually talking about a lot of privileged operations in the sense of system calls mostly, second containers, virtual machines. Some problems about them or what we think is a problem in terms of security and the solution we propose. After that, there will be a demo and then questions and don't overestimate us, but we hope to answer to your satisfaction. So quick recall or what do we understand as a system call? So in essentially every modern operating system, you have several rings, right? So you have a kernel ring, you have a use space ring. That might be ring one or ring four, or in any case, you have something like a system call abstraction. In case of Linux, it's simply that you have a process requesting resources or services from the kernel. And this is maybe perhaps the main security model that the operating system implements. So depending on your user or capabilities on Linux or context on Linux and VSCs, you might get that this request is granted or denied. So if you ever try to insert the family's module that's called evil things as a user, the kernel will not let you do it. However, if you touch your own files, then the system call will succeed. And the difference is just that the number of the syscall is different and root could do this and root could do that. OK, that's kind of obvious, but useful maybe to introduce what we want to improve. So quite often, we see in container environments and virtualization engines or mixes thereof, such as, let's say, KubeVirt or Kata containers, for example, but even if you just stick to Podman and Docker. Let's say the container wants to create a natural interface. That's usually a ton. It's like the most basic tunnel interface on Linux. And you need to do it the old way. So without that link, you have your control. And you want to tell the operating system, I want to create a network interface. And on Linux, this doesn't need root anymore. But it needs CapNet admin, which means you can do pretty much whatever you want. And you can create how many interfaces as you want, spoof the traffic, bring down the networking. So there are a few other examples of these things that are actually quite common, like, for example, setting up the priority for a real time virtual machine where you just need to affect the priority of one process, not all of them. There are other problems right now. So for example, you want to create a device node as a user. You want maybe to connect to a specific demon or open a specific file. And all of them, there have been impressive improvements recently in Linux. But wouldn't it be nice if we could just say, OK, I want that this process can create this top device. And sure, Linux security modules do something almost like that, but those are kind of fixed policies. They're not so easy to dynamically configure them per process. So we started looking into it. And of course, BPF in Setcomp is an important part of the story. You can do Setcomp with a small BPF program where you say that you might want to deny or accept a syscall based on its number. Not good enough, because that's too generic. Big improvement again in Linux recently. You can tell another user space process details about your syscall. This is called Setcomp Unotify. And essentially, the kernel tests you a lot of things, arguments. Position time. So container already make use of Setcomp. Usually, you have a JSON file that defines the syscall that are allowed, denied, or notifiable by the container. So usually, the runtime take the second profile that is part of the OCI spec. And basically, it use Lipsetcom library in order to generate the BPF filter, as we saw from what Stefano just described. If you have filter, you need it for filter, the syscalls. In OCI, we also have support for second notifiers. And basically, the runtime need to communicate with the monitoring process through Unix sockets. So basically, this is the OCI extension. So through this Unix socket, it has the file descriptor where the monitor will receive these notification events. And when this starting phase is done, then the monitoring process is able to monitor the container and take action if one of the filter syscalls is executed by the containerized workload. So there are already existing solutions that take advantage of second notifiers, like, for example, LXP, or there is a King Wolf second page. However, those projects are in common that they implement an handler per syscalls. So for example, if you want to add a new syscalls or maybe even change in the behavior, you need to code it yourself. So it's not very easy to reuse. So in order to do that, of course, you need to have a deep understanding how second notifier works. And this is the place where Satan comes to play. So the idea is that, if you are an admin or you are developing a tool, you will be able to describe this into a recipe. So basically you will have a match. So basically describe the syscalls that you want to filter on arguments and you will associate an action on it. So basically this will be, we choose to use JSON format. And the Satan cooker is basically taking this as an input file and generate the BPF program. And then a bytecode representation of matches and action. We need a kind of launcher that install the BPF filter in order and then launch the real process that we want to monitor. And this is the goal of Sataneter. So the actual monitor is what we call Satan. So basically this take gluten, that's the bytecode representation for matches and action, monitor the notifiers and then basically perform the action in the alpha of your target. So here you have a visual representation of the flow. So we have two distinctive phase. We have the generation of input that can be on a completely different building system. So it doesn't need to be like we saw in the container on time when we start the container. So cooker will read the recipe that you wrote, will generate gluten that will be the input for Satan and the BPF filter that will be launched by the eater. So when the eater launched the target, then basically Satan can start monitoring the target process. So why Satan? So we decide to choose a declarative approach versus an imperative. So this gives you a better visibility of your operation. So the privilege operation. It's flexible, so you don't need to code an extra handler if you want another behavior. This entire, the Satan setup will take care of that. So what you need to do is just writing the JSON recipe. It's a generic, so it's an independent and self-contained tool. We are not relying on lip sac comp. We are going to see that in details, but basically the setup generates the BPF program and the matches and the action that we saw. So here you have a visual representation of a code. It's a snippet from a keyword, but you could solve it with the JSON recipe. So this actually, it's a nice representation what we mean declarative versus imperative. So of course, security is one of the strongest and large use case that we have and so above for Satan. Rootless container. So we want to target rootless container by reducing the number of capability given to them by impersonating only the necessary these codes. And I think with sac comp is that you can have a deep argument in introspection. So for example, you can check also complex objects such as for example, strings, structs and buffers. A new, a nice add-ons that we think could be beneficial is also counting the number of the Cisco execution. So again, this gives you a more fine grade control of what your process is doing. However, security is not the only use case. We think also could be used in other contexts like for example, testing. So for example, you could inject some error if you execute a certain Cisco. So for example, you want to simulate how your application behaves on different error. You can also mock a Cisco, so not execute on your system, that particular Cisco, or maybe another thing could be injecting some delays or something asleep and then continuing the Cisco. We have a deep introspection of arguments. So that could be used for profiling your application. So for example, it could be an alternative to tracing tool that use P trace today. We already mentioned for example, could be also used for managing the resource allocation. Like for example, sac comp allow you to inject a file descriptor into the target process. So this could be an alternative way to SCM rights or the use of PDF ticket FD. Or maybe you could, a use case could be to connect maybe to container, to application that runs into the container that don't have the buy mount. So the socket is not available to the both containers. So SETA could take the file descriptor of both application and connect to them. So those are just some example. Here finally, you can see an example of the JSON that we were mentioning. So you can see that there are two sections. The first is the match. So in this case, we filter a make note with major number one and a subset of minor. So basically we are going to do a privilege operation. So they call only for certain type of argument. And the action that will be performed is basically redoing the make note in the context of the target. So you can see context mount caller. The second example is what I was explained to you about testing. So in this case, we have a match. We on connect on two different paths. So you can see test one socket and test two socket. So if your application try to connect on test one, we basically simulate the C-scull because we return zero. And in the second case, we are returning an error with this minus one. So this is just some JSON example that you could describe with SETA. So now we're technically... Sorry for this one. Right. So, right. The cooker generates two parts, right? We say there is a BPF program because we need to tell the kernel, please tell us about a number of C-sculls. Not all of them, otherwise we would have a few problems. I mean, that wouldn't be really useful if we just got all the calls, like are your calls like read, write, or send message or networking calls in general. So we need to be selective. We just want to get what we are interested in. And this is the role of the BPF in the kernel. So, great. This is not in UNO. You see a binary search tree. That's what ellipsa comp implements. Why do I have a binary search tree? Because, well, I have a list of C-sculls. And maybe, maybe there are a bit more than seven. Maybe there are 200. And then every time BPF needs to check if it's a matching number, well, it's a comparison. So we want to keep a... It's actually quite relevant to keep an average complexity for the search operation to something reasonable. Okay, great. For that we have a big awful again. But there is something that makes ellipsa comp a bit simpler than what satan does. Because ellipsa comp is used typically to just deny or accept these calls. However, we need to be a bit more detailed and we need to do like accept, deny or notify. So we have two optimization goals. And one thing that we found to be quite effective in our solution is to fill those, those the bottom most level, the leaves with some intermediate more jumps. Like there are redundant jumps to these possible actions that are sure here. We just show the user notification or let the process do it as if nothing happened or block it. Then, yeah, right. And this brings me to what's overhead you might wonder. We haven't been really scientific yet because yeah, that would need a bit more time. But essentially what we did is to try around 10 million as sick on a post-modern 10-ish years old something laptop. And well, Linus got quite fast or maybe CPU got quite fast or something got really fast. I don't know, but it just takes seven seconds. Okay, so we tried a typical usage of BVF that we see with satan, with filters that might make sense for typical podman containers that need to just mount a volume. So it's 100 instructions that do essentially nothing. Plus we have some comparison and then we jump across this filter. And that takes a bit longer, 8.2 seconds. But from there we estimated that every comparison is something between 20 and 40 clock per instruction. Again, there might be something better on the market now. So I guess we don't care or we do, but this should show that what we're doing is actually doable. Now we were talking about the BVF and this is the other part. So this is the part that is adjusted. Yeah, sorry, not intended actually. Consumed, same by the user space monitor. So the user space monitor gets notifications and now it needs to decide what to do with it. So this is pretty generic. I'm sorry, how obvious this is, but we have an area of instructions, an area which is read-only with the constants that you put in the JSON. We have a temporaries area that's only read-write part. And that's pretty much it. And we have a structure that's really simple that's what second gives us, which is a list of the arguments plus the PID of the target. And looking into instructions, we try to keep them to a minimum and we are of course concerned about feature creep, but yeah, we are quite committed to not add more than this because otherwise what we are doing is we will not really be able to claim it's secure and it will not actually be secure. So the options are, well, the obvious one, okay, check that the syscode number is matching what I wrote in the configuration. A couple of them are specific to SecComp. So SecComp allows us to inject a file descriptor atomically, so atomically with a code, meaning that the task cannot do anything else, meanwhile. And this is useful if you, well, you see that later in the demo, but you can connect to something and the supervisor connects you to something else and replaces the file descriptor and this is actually safe to do. We can return an error or a success and then we need to shuffle a bit the data around because the configuration comes from JSON and the process can pass whatever in it. And a quick mention about the context. So by context, we generally mean namespaces on Linux. We also enable specifying the namespace, the several types of namespaces where we want to execute a syscode. So when we impersonate a syscode, we want to be able to, for example, yeah, for a container to do that in its mount namespace. And plus, yeah, obvious boring things such as a working directory, UAD, GIG. Tags, so in this JSON recipe, of course, we need to have references between matches and actions because we might want to recycle some data. Security, how about this security with this? So it looks like we kind of explained to your look so far. But that's not our intention and actually what turns out from a bit of experience we have with several container engines or virtualization. No virtualization in the sense of VM because, yeah, in that case, you have a much, much stronger isolation and you wouldn't need to use this at all, probably. But let's say you have something in between or a mix. And yeah, sometimes you need to, I mean, we look at it and we think, okay, yeah, actually I didn't want to tell a component that an RPC needs to pass a path about a file that I want to open. What you need to do is to open the file and maybe there is actually a way. So the obvious benefit of this is, yeah, that instead of implementing several types of RPCs that we saw in several projects, you can have a unified mechanism and unified both in the sense that this should be generic enough to be used by different projects and also that for the same container or the same engine, you can have a single place where you just say, okay, those are my set of privilege operations and nothing else. We don't want to do the parsing in the supervisors so of course right now it's 500 lines of code and we really, really, really hope to keep it that way. There is a surface, definitely there is a significant attack surface and in that link, we listed a few considerations about those but overall we think it's not perfect, it doesn't guarantee security by itself, it's all magic but we think there is some clear value in this solution. Okay, so now we have a live demo. We have a website where you can find also all those demos so if something goes wrong, please go there. Okay, so we have seen some example. Now we can see Satan set up in action. So first of all I would like to show you what we are going to execute so this is similar to the example I listed in the slide. So there are different matches in the first one. We are going to try to connect to a different pass so you can see that in the match we have a cool sock and we're going to try to modify the connect and try to connect to the demo sock. So different pass, a different survey and in the second match we're going to inject some error permission denied when we execute the connect and in the third one it's to execute the rest of the connect. So first of all we need to generate the input file. So this is done by cooker that it takes as input recipe then we need to generate the gluten that's the input for Satan and the BPF filter. Okay, so some prints, but we have generated the file. So what we would like to do is just to print some, to read some file and print it in the server so I'm just generating a file that will be read and then we can start the socket as a listening server and this will be the path where we want to actual connect with. Okay, and then we need Satan either in order to launch our application and this takes as input the BPF filter and our application it's again socket that is going to open the file that I wrote previously and we want to connect to the cool socket. So actually we don't have this cool socket but we try to connect to the server. So Satan either is blocking because it's waiting there is some synchronization because we need to start Satan otherwise we might need to my lose some Cisco. So Satan takes as input the other file that we create before, that's a gluten and it takes the PID of the eater. Okay, I hope I haven't missed time. Okay, of course I did something wrong. Let's see what I did wrong. Okay, let's try again. Live debugging as always. Okay, we didn't start the other socket, so let's do it again. I mean it's live, so that the. Okay, so now you can see that this has finished and we have printed the string. Okay, the second part of the demo. We are going to try to execute the same command but on a different path. So the different path on this path we are going to inject an error. So Satan is always the same, it takes the same gluten files and you can see that we have got permission denied. So this can be a nice way you can test on different behavior for your application. Of course if you are going to do another path in our case we don't have this socket. This connect is not filtered and it will be simply continued and in this case it pays because we don't have it. So those are the three matches that we add in the JSON. Okay, so this is the first demo. The second one we are going to use Podman and try to create a character device. So here you can see that in the match we have make nodes, major one and a subset of minor. And as a call we are going to replicate the make node in the context of the caller. Okay, so first of all I want us to show you what happened if we don't use Satan. So in this case I'm just trying to, I drop all the capability here. So I'm not going to have cut make node inside the container. It's a Fedora. It's right just to create make node with some, so yeah, I got the permission denied because the container doesn't have the capability. So now we can try to do to start Satan. So it takes in this, it's a slightly different flavor of I haven't generated, sorry. So first of all of course we need to generate the input file otherwise it's not quite right. Again this takes the JSON file I show you previously. Again it creates gluten and the BPF filter. Okay, so now I'm going to start Satan, need root, in order to be able to create a make node, the device node. So it takes as input again the gluten that we generate now. But in this case we are not passing the pit but a path to a socket. This was the thing I mentioned into the OCI integration for a second filter. So it's going to be, okay. So now I will start again the same container but I have added two annotations, so I hope you can see it. So in the first annotation I'm reading, yeah. So in the first annotation it's second BPF data and basically we are reading the BPF filter that we generate with Cooker. And the second annotation is the OCI, the OCI support for the second notifier and it takes the path of the socket where the runtime will pass the file descriptor. Okay, and then we are basically as a command create, again try to create the character device and try to list it, so we will see if it's successful. Okay, so you can see that now we have been able to create the character device because the call was actually performed by Satan. So in this case we have been able to even create a character device without making it capability inside the container. Okay, so, sorry. So the takeaway of this presentation are that Satan is a tool for filtering and executing privileges code. We aim to reduce the capability and the privilege given to containers. Important is the clarity of approach versus the imperative way. And you can find more information into our website. Future plan are of course finished to code and a big cleanup, it's really needed. And yeah, right now we have very few syscalls but we plan to add more. We would like, we would love to have feedback from you because it's a very new idea. So if you have any questions please speak up. And yeah, our goal is to try to integrate Satan with container engines and virtualization engines such as Kewgurt. And special thanks to Andrea Frangeli, Kristen Browner, his blog has been very helpful. And Kewgurt developers that help us to shape our design. Oops. Could you, sorry, I haven't realized it. Any questions? So we have one question from the audience. Okay. It's about the demo of the app with the new model. The question is, around this and more in containers, is it possible to intercept and allow these kind of calls outside of containers? Yeah, I mean the first demo. So the question is if it's possible to do MkNode with outside of a container? Yeah, sure. I mean the first example was without a container and you could do exactly the same. So yeah, the. The BPDF program needs to be loaded. Yeah, I mean you have seen the two flavor of Satan. I mean in the first example in the demo we have used Satanator because it's exactly, I mean we need to launch the process by installing previously the filter. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for your time.


Today we're going to be taking a look at the black and white Air Jordan 1 in the 85 cut. I'm excited to unbox this shoe right here and give you guys some good comparisons between the other 85 cuts that have released over the past couple of years and these ones right here just might be the best ones to release so far.  Now before we crack open the box I got to show you guys the baby pair I love the way they went about the packaging on this one in particular I feel like they gave it a little bit more character than you would on this style and we'll talk about that a little bit later as I unbox these later in the video but for now let's go ahead and crack this box open. Lifting off the lid right here you got your Air Jordan paper with three different logos on there you got your 23 your Jumpman and your Air Jordan wings logo peeling back that paper you got the white paper that wraps around the shoe and then you got the shoe oh you got the shoe okay now first impressions of this sneaker honestly like I said I think these just might be the best ones to release so far and I'll break it all down in this video but before we do that we got to talk about the history first this is a classic right here back in 1985 we saw the original set of Air Jordan ones hit the streets some of the classics that we all know still to this day Chicago's UNC's black toes shadows breads royals you name it there are a lot of iconic colorways that dropped back then and these were one of them it's crazy to think after all those years we have only seen two different retros to come from this exact colorway and that was the pair that came out in 2008 with the Jumpmans on the back and on the tongues these were part of the CDP pack also released with the black suede 22s I remember companies when they first came out and rockin these over the years and I still love this shoe so you already know I'm excited to have this new 85 cut in my collection we'll talk about styles cut some materials and differences on these a little bit later in the video but we got to keep going with the history over the years the Air Jordan one had always been known to be the classic in the OG because it was the first shoe but there were definitely a lot of different models that came in and took some of the shine when we're talking about the Air Jordan threes from Duncan from the free throw line or the Jordan fours just alone everybody loves that model the fives the sixes when Jordan one his first championship other shoes from different iconic moments and we cannot forget to mention the Air Jordan 11 for a long time the Air Jordan 11 had been one of the most hyped and sought-after sneakers when it comes to a bunch of different colorways but the Air Jordan one in particular had always been releasing each and every year multiple colorways day in and day out you would always see somebody wearing a pair of Jordan ones whether it may be a low a mid or a high somebody had a pair of Jordan ones on in their rotation and I vividly remember back about 15 to 20 years ago when the Air Jordan one mid used to be one of the hottest Jordan ones in the game because we really didn't get the OG high like we do now later in time around the early 2010 era we then started seeing the Jordan one high come back to life but then it had a retro vibe to it so I had a jump man on the back and a jump man on the tongue and no Nike air about five to seven years later we then saw more Jordan one OG highs come out but they were the retro style in the retro cut but that's all a lot of new sneaker heads had known so at the time it was acceptable and everybody loved it either way 2015 rolls around and the Chicago Air Jordan one comes back to life and everybody is loving it simply because it's a classic OG colorway on a OG model and that's the best that we could get at the time and as we all know when the last dance documentary came out years after that prices started to skyrocket Jordan ones became some of the hottest shoes in the game again and next thing you know everybody's going after these shoes but all the OG collectors had always been out there asking when can we get the OG style and the OG cut so fast forward a little bit more and over the past few years we have seen different colorways release of the OG 85 cut and the new modern day in the modern style yes I know this is not exactly like the 85 ones but this is the closest it is gonna get and I think this pair in particular is the best one out of all of them which I will show you guys a little bit later in the video but so far we have had five different colorways released to the public and this is the fifth one that dropped we had the new beginning air Jordan ones we had the reverse bread Air Jordan one the neutral or natural gray Air Jordan one the Georgetown Air Jordan one and now right here the black and white Air Jordan one please don't call them pandas so now that you guys know a little bit more about this basic simple color blocking of a black and white shoe and why it means so much to so many different sneaker heads let's go ahead and start breaking down the styles cut some materials and then we can get into the comparisons between the shoes because you might be shocked when you see the poll results on what people think about these compared to the other ones starting with the bottom of the foot you have your classic Air Jordan one and when I say classic I mean OG 85 classic style Air Jordan one outsole now these are gonna be a lot more narrow around the middle of the foot right here and have a little bit different print and texture when you look at the midsole as well and I'll show you that difference when you see these side-by-side with the 2008 pair because that's a lot more similar to your modern-day Air Jordan one OG high cut now going up to the upper one thing that I can say is when I feel the materials on this pair in particular I think these are the best ones that they have done so far these definitely feel the softest they have a lot more buttery feel and it has that just premium look to it I know the other ones do as well but they kind of almost feel plastic-y just because how stiff the leathers are and how firm it is when you touch it now when it comes to the color blocking pattern on here this is going to be very similar to other color blocking on Jordan one OG's that we have seen as well something like the UNC ones oh man I cannot wait till they drop the 85s in the UNC colorway or the storm blue ones with the 85 cut that's gonna be crazy too but those kind of three right there just give you an example of simple two-tone color blocking on a sneaker clean nice shoe now go into the laces right here these come equipped with a standard pair of black laces and you have an additional pair of white laces I've seen these on foot with both different styles and honestly it looks really good with both the black and the white but I think if you were to lace these up with the white laces I think that might be the better option I don't know let me know what you guys think down below in the comment section another dope addition that I love about these you have the OG hang tag right here and this has the Jordan Jumpman logo from back in the day and then if you open it it has the information Air Jordan one high all the information about the shoe the insole the encapsulated polyurethane insole right here solid rubber outsole and then all the other aspects on the shoe when it comes to the upper and speaking of the insole one thing that I love about these in particular is they have really nice insole not every pair of Air Jordan ones or just Jordans in particular they all don't have the same type of insole they actually did a really good job when it comes to these they're nice and thick and soft and these feel really good on foot another dope aspect to this shoe that I love they have the same OG branding with a sticker on the inside of the insole right here you can peel this off I'm gonna peel it off real quick just so you guys can see and then you have the Nike air right there now let's put that back real quick alright back to dead stock just how we like it now looking at the sticker on the insole right here you got more information about the sneaker and it's interesting when it comes to the date right here in March 29th 1982 this goes back to his college days which doesn't really make any sense because he didn't have Air Jordan's back in college but at the same time this could potentially be some type of Easter egg for sneaker heads on a future release I don't know we'll find out when the time comes so now that we know a little bit more about the sneaker and the details of it let's start comparing it to the other shoes and seeing what the poll results say when everybody else thinks oh yeah and by the way I need the reverse breads in my collection still I got all the other colorways but I don't have those yet so I can't give you guys comparison but that's just a side note for anybody that's trying to hook your boy up size 13 I need them anyways back to the comparisons right here so when you look at the toolbox it does look pretty similar but when you actually feel the leathers on the shoe like I said the black pair feels a lot more soft and buttery than the new beginnings another thing that I didn't mention about the Air Jordan 185 you got your embossed wings logos on the side of the foot and honestly I really love this hit it just feels a lot more premium when it comes to these compared to the og Air Jordan one high retro that we normally get now when you look at the shape of these two shoes right here they are very similar but this is what I want to talk about when it comes to the shape of the other colorways because those start to change a little bit this was the first 85 retro that released to the public now let's talk about the other ones that drop now if you look at the neutral gray Air Jordan one right here these came out a little bit later and these actually change a little bit as well and like I said the materials on these way more stiff compared to the black and white colorway now another thing is going to be different as well you have different materials on this shoe so you got your suede right here and you got your suede around the collar and I think that partially could be something that changed the shape simply because of the material that was used so it does look a little bit more puffy around the ankle and happen to be a little bit more rounded right here on the end and I think that's again like I said have to do a little bit more with the materials on the shoe but it does kind of compromise the shape when it comes to the sneaker and maybe because it's an all-white shoe it does make the shape look a little bit weird as well but I think these ones again are the best example of the 85 cut now when it comes to the comparison against the Georgetown right here you can see it does look a little bit more similar on the backside but the black and white one does look a lot more clean when it comes to the overall vertical back end and this one kind of slants in a little bit more and a little bit more puffier around the ankle area and this wasn't an OG colorway they just decided to put that on the 85 cut giving us that bringing back the nostalgia from when Jordan played against Georgetown which I kind of wish they would have just only done OG colorways on the 85s I know a lot of people love this shoe and when you look at the poll results it's a 50-50 split right now but the fact that these have beaten both the white and red colorway and the white and gray colorway and are a 50-50 and this is simply a black and white shoe that does say a lot as well but again it's all to each his own whichever one you like more let me know down below in the comment section because I mean you can't go wrong with a black and white colorway and the Georgetown it is a clean-ass shoe now comparing these to the 2008 CDP retro you're going to see a lot of differences when it comes to the styles the cuts and materials yet a colorway is basically the same but besides that everything is gonna be a little bit different so let's go ahead and run through this real quick as you can see from the outsoles different outsoles like I said new modern retro style more like the OG when it comes to that midsole same thing the print is different I showed you guys that earlier color block is the same on the upper but the materials are way different the toe cap looks extremely different the laces honestly on the 2008 pair are really really nice for some reason they just never really do these laces these ones are a lot more premium thicker and softer than your typical flat laces that you get so Jordan brand you guys need to bring these laces back in particular I know it's probably a little bit more money but these things are nice now another thing to look at on these two shoes is you got your Nike air and then you have your jump man right here and then again like I said earlier jump man on the back nothing on the back they just did the jump man's on the retro style it was I don't remember how many years they did that for maybe like a six year window or something like that five-year window I don't remember how long it was I have to go back and kind of track the years but either way there was a period in time where they had the retros with the jump man on the back like this so I remember this era good times good memories but we're on to newer bigger and better things so when it comes to the comparison between these two shoes obviously you can see it is a landside everybody's rocking with the 85 cut and again like I said there's reasons why these beat all the shoes just a little bit if the shape and everything is similar to the other ones that's cool but like I said the materials on this one in particular the best one yet guaranteed like if you have these and you have them in hand I'm sure you can attest to it down below in the comment section and tell the people what I'm talking about so before we get into price predictions and everything when it comes to the 85 ones we got to talk about the baby pair because this one in particular is so freakin dope I'm so happy that they did this right here as you can see the box looks like a locker you got the lock right here number one Nike branding it's kind of got that green and it says baby Jordan 85 toddler black summit white 5C I grabbed these out there at all star weekend but look at this bro this is something that is so dope to me they brought back the OG cut of the baby Air Jordan ones so these don't look anything like the baby ones that we see in current time this gives you the exact OG cut check out the midsole it almost looks like a Cortez bro like these things are crazy super dope when I saw these and I had the chance to get them I knew immediately I had to cop I don't remember how much the retail was I feel like it was kind of a little bit more expensive but these things got a leather sock liner on them they got is this leather it looks like it or maybe it's not it's like a little vinyl type of material but either way these things are nice and you got them old school little thin kind of flat rope laces that go with them giving you the OG vibes brah oh my gosh if anybody out there that cop these let me know how you feel about these because the leather on these things is extremely nice everything about the shoe I like these lot honestly I feel like I might like these more than I do the adult pair and don't get me wrong I really like the adult pair but this baby shoe is clean so based on the poll results that you saw throughout the video it was pretty obvious a lot of people do like this pair in particular and I can completely understand why styles cuts materials colorway neutral goes with everything makes sense and then yeah we know the panda dunk is popping right now so this is a great alternative even though these are still going to be a little bit more expensive so let's talk about pricing these are currently going for around 350 bucks I'm a size 13 so again price does vary depending on the size of shoe that you are but I think that they're going to kind of sit right there around that value and hold that and it might go up over time and I think there's going to be a lot of people out there that are going to hold on to these keep dead stock pairs and treat them just like they did back in 1985 and take care of these shoes as you can see I have the whole set I'm missing the reverse braids but I'm trying to keep one of every single one dead stock and then have a second one to wear and I want to be able to hold on these and put them into my collection and see what happens over time not only for value reasons but just off of nostalgia and being able to recreate that collection being a younger collector saying that I was born after 1985 but at the same time I still got love for sneakers and I still want to have that collection and I do want to go back and get those og ones but they're starting to fall apart and they're starting to deteriorate and I get that too so I think there's definitely going to be a lot of people that have that same mindset when it comes to the sneaker and there's going to be a lot of people that want to love it and rock it and have that nostalgia along the way so that's why on a sneaker in particular like this it's definitely a double or triple up type situation because you definitely want to rock one and stock one when it comes to something like this so let me know what you guys think about these down below hopefully that gave you guys a little bit more insight about the sneaker and the history and nostalgia behind it I appreciate you guys as always I'll see you tomorrow on another video yo before you go I just launched my sneaker head academy where we got everything on the inside I teach you all the stuff that I learned over the past 15 years when it comes to sneakers, scaling, real estate, you name it we talk about all of it in there and there's a eight week program plus a bunch of monthly giveaways I give away shoes literally way too much honestly but either way I'll see you guys on the inside hit the link down below in my description or pinned in the comment section for DJ sneaker head academy I'll see you guys over there


Hey everyone, I'm here at my office on the Hill and I thought it would be a good time to tell you about my Youth Council. Some of the voices I listen to most closely are those of young Canadians, the same young Canadians who are demanding real change and building a better future for generations to come. Starting today, I'm looking for new members for the Prime Minister's Youth Council, young leaders who will tell me about the biggest challenges that Canadian youth are facing, who will help me tackle these issues head on, and who will help make real change happen. So if you're between 16 and 24, apply now and follow our friends over at Leaders Today on Instagram and Facebook for more information and updates on how to apply.


Hey, this is Brett, and this 2011 Dodge Challenger 392 SRT8 is stock number 14459Z. I am here at Summit Automotive in Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, you're new and used sports car and Dodge Challenger headquarters. This 2011 Dodge Challenger 392 SRT8 has the 6.4 liter V8 Hemi engine, puts out 470 horsepower, it's paired up with these 6-speed manual transmission. This car has been fully safety and inspected by our service shop for the state of Wisconsin inspection process. It has a fresh oil and filter change, all the fluids have been checked and topped off, and this car is 100% ready to go. Very clean all the way around, and that's exactly what I'm going to do in this video, go all the way around. Inside, start it up, take a look under the hood, show you all the options and give you the most accurate representation that I can of the vehicle. Brilliant black crystal pearl is a color, I shoot all my videos in 4K, if you like the video subscribe to the YouTube channel, click the bell notifications and get updates on the videos I do each and every day here at Summit Auto. And stay current on our ever-changing and vast sports car inventory so you do not miss out on gems like this one. This one comes with the 20-inch painted and polished aluminum wheels. They are in pretty nice condition, does have the Brembo brakes on there as well with the slotted rotors and it has Goodyear Eagle RSA tires, these are 245-45 ZR20s, I would say they have right around half the tread left on them. Front fender is in really nice condition, didn't see any major dents or dings on there. It does have the projector style headlamps, the factory fog lights, and the front bumper and lower valance are in very nice condition, I didn't see any major scuffs or scrapes or cracks on there, lower valance looks really good as well, the grille is in nice condition and all of these stripes do look really good, does have the sport hood with the scoops there, didn't see any major dents or dings on that hood, passenger side front fender is in excellent condition as well, no dents or dings on there, the passenger side front wheel, absolutely perfect, no scuffs or scrapes, brilliant black crystal pearl or it might just be called crystal pearl on this one, same paint code, has a lot of purples and greens and gold metal flake in it and you can see just how nice that paint is on this car. As you go down this side of this 2011 Dodge Challenger, take note of how clean the body is, how reflective and mirror like that paint is, I take these HD videos so if you are far away or even if you're close by and you just cannot make the trip down but you're still interested in purchasing the car, you can see the car, hear the car and have confidence in the vehicle that you're looking at before you even get here so that when you do get here there's absolutely no surprises, you can see all the stripes are in really nice condition up top as well, does have the power sunroof and hopefully you can make a smart and informed buying decision from watching this video, if this video helps you make that buying decision let your salesman know that you saw the video was helpful and that Brad sent you back wheels in excellent shape as well, you get the Brembo brakes back here as well and the back tires have just as much tread as the front tires. Coming around to the back of the vehicle, rear bumper is in great shape, no major scuffs or scrapes or dents or cracks on there, you get the chrome tipped dual rear exhaust really the only thing to disclose on this car is that this back sticker has just a little bit of a notch out of it but other than that very nice all the way around, check out the trunk here, this one does come with the kicker subwoofer, so much must have the option group two, there is your tire inflator kit and that's where your battery is located, nice storage area back here as well and those seats do fall down for extra storage, you can see the shocks are doing a great job holding that trunk lid up, always important to check that on these challengers, especially the older ones, gotta really check those shocks out but this one's working great, driver's side quarter is in very nice condition and for full disclosure this back wheel is just as nice as the rest, down the rest is side of the car door looks really good, you can see any dents or dings on there and you do get the heated power mirrors, this one does have the enter and go system, you just have to have your key in your pocket and it'll automatically unlock, inside the SRT package gives you the black leather and Alcantara suede bucket seats, you get the red stripe, leather stripe on the backrest, SRT's stitched into the backrest as well, there are no rips, there are no tears, the bolsters look really good and it does come with a power driver seat with lumbar, factory floor mats, bright pedals, auto headlamps, power windows, locks and mirrors and you get that suede insert on the door as well, take a quick look at the back seats, no rips or tears back there looks really good, latch child safety system for any child car seats you may have and once again side curtain airbags right there, let's hop inside, check out the miles, the radio and everything that this one has to offer on the interior, so you can see that this one has 12,259 miles on it, you get an outside temp compass display, the white faced instrument cluster looks really good, it's specific to the SRT8 of course and it comes with the leather wrapped steering wheel, no scuffs or scrapes on there, cruise controls on the right, Bluetooth and information center controls on the left and audio controls on the back of the steering wheel, this one comes with the Uconnect 430N radio, it gives you AM, FM and Sirius XM radio capabilities, it also has the factory navigation system on it, there is highway 41, so that is working nicely and you get all your different media on here, you can actually store music onto this hard drive which is a 28 gigabit gigabyte capacity, so you can store music on there and you can put your CDs in and burn it right to that hard drive, it has an aux and a USB as well, down here your climate controls are right there, your heated seat buttons, hazard lights and stability control, there's your six speed manual transmission, you get this kind of ambient lighting there, keyless entry and the passenger side floor mat and seat are in excellent condition as well, I don't think this car has been smoked in, passenger seat is in excellent shape and you do get that power sunroof, up here your map lights and your auto dimming mirror, sunroof controls and then your home link buttons for your garage door security systems and lighting systems, let's start it up and take a look under the hood, starts right up, no check engine lights or anything like that other than my parking brake light, I would personally like to thank you for checking out the video today and hopefully from this HD video you've been able to verify the quality, condition, options and of course cleanliness of this car all the way around inside, now it is in very nice shape considering the age on it, HID headlamps, factory fog lights and under the hood we have the 6.4 liter V8 Hemi engine, the 392 Hemi, 470 horsepower engine base, very clean runs, very smooth and once again this car has been fully safety then inspected by our service shop per the state of Wisconsin inspection process, it has a fresh oil and filter change, all the fluids have been checked and topped off, shocks are doing a great job holding the hood up, there is the emission sticker, I would venture to say that everything on this car is pretty much stock, didn't see any aftermarket things with it and I would highly recommend it from a quality and condition standpoint and to see more pictures of this car, one of our other 550 new and used cars, trucks, SUVs, minivans, wranglers, sports cars, challengers, chargers, mustangs, camaros, corvettes, SRT8, Hellcats, GT500, ZL1, Z06 as you name it, we got to go to the website right there at summitauto.com, full pictures and descriptions of every single vehicle all at summitauto.com, if you want to check out more HD videos you can go to youtube.com slash summitauto, click the bell notifications, get updates on the videos I do each and every day as well as having access to one of the largest catalogs of vehicle and sports car walk-arounds on youtube, in fact in a second you will see a link to subscribe to my youtube channel in the upper left and do that, click the bell notifications so you do not miss out on gems like this one, a link to all the challenger videos I've ever done in the upper right, link to this vehicle on our website on the lower left and a link to one of our latest youtube videos on the lower right, click those check us out, we're super excited to help you with this ultra queen 2011 Dodge Challenger 392 SRT8 in brilliant black crystal pearl, thank you so much for checking out the video, remember to like, subscribe and share on the youtube channel, I really appreciate it, thanks again have a great day