critical game right now this is the NFC slash AFC championship the conference championship game we have a spectacular team with a 92 overall Jason Kelsey at center Taysum Hill our newest tight end who was amazing last game we even got tight end Dexter Lawrence if we want to throw him in for a blocking package got Gino at QB Nick Chubb at half back I'm on the fence about both of them sometimes Nick Chubb has amazing games and sometimes he's so lackluster and Gino was questionable last game but I still love it. Jalen Watto, Justin Jefferson are amazing and two guys is just kind of hanging out. Palamala was awesome with a nice interception all on his own. Max Cosby didn't see much from him Dexter Lawrence has always been solid Montez Sweat's great, Sauce is great, Surtain is great, Weapon X is great. Right now for this conference championship game I think I want a god tier middle linebacker. Roquan is alright and that's it it ends right there he's alright I mean it's just a dated card he came out in October we're in January and of course if you need Madden coins make sure to go to instantmaddencoins.com they sell coins on every single platform you can also directly buy players or training points buying limited and quick selling them is probably the safest route so I recommend that this is a significantly better deal than what EA is gonna offer you and you can get 10% off when using the code MMG just use the link at the top of the description if you have a New Year's resolution and you already broke it just know that you're a little bitch but it's not too late I swear people break their New Year's resolutions early so that they get an out for the rest of the year okay your New Year's resolution was to go to the gym more and he didn't go to the gym yet fucking January 1st doesn't determine if you're gonna be a better person or not okay you determine if you're gonna be a better person or not so why don't you do this here's my recommendation for you okay go to your home screen your iPhone there's a widget called screen time place the fattest screen time widget you can right on the front screen your iPhone and when that bitch says six plus hours every single day just think of all the useful things you could have done with six hours think if you spent all that time that you spent on your phone slurping yourself up do enough and scroll through Instagram real scrolling through DicDoc watching YouTube shorts watching dog shit content you don't give a shit about you took all that time and spent it on yourself spent it in the gym spent it eating healthy with your family doing something productive learning studying what an incredible person you could be where was I what we talking about oh yeah Rokwan Smith Rokwan Smith's a little dated I'd like a new user middle linebacker so that's what I'm shooting for you guys know the rules got three wheel spins here we got a finesse I'm gonna say a 92 plus middle linebacker out of this that's all I'm looking for or Troy Anderson oh fantasy round jackpot so this is gonna be a guaranteed offensive player so here's how we're gonna do this I'm gonna go do a mock draft in sleeper I'm gonna do a 12 man PPR and out of the four players I get in the first four rounds I can take one of them and Madden I shouldn't be able to take the one slot that's unfair I'm gonna have echo pick hey echo pick a number one through 12 here's a number between one and 12 so I don't even really need round two three or four here's the really good options there's no defensive players is a fantasy football draft TJ Hawkinson 95 overall tight end but I did just get to some hills I feel like that's a no there's a 95 Patrick Mahomes I'm gonna trap Patrick Mahomes and I'm gonna take him I'm sorry genome but Mahomes is too good 95 overall Mahomes is 690,000 coins he gets one AP gun slinger he does not get hot raw master he does however get protected which is an awesome ability and he'll get gun slinger for one AP I'm gonna go running gun all right for a second wheel spin damn would have been nice to get a middle linebacker but I'm not gonna complain about getting probably the best quarterback in the game oh I'm so bad at this one I'm so bad at this in the playoffs to the good news is if I can actually pull this off like effectively I will get an awesome middle linebacker I get Troy Anderson if I want let's say I went 10 passes complete before an incompletion I could get multiple 92 overall middle linebackers I could get Donald Parham middle linebacker who is 90 speed 6 foot 9 all right completions before incomplete I mean we got a new Mahomes to do it with but this is also the conference championship so I'm a little spooked right gentlemen it's left guard or middle linebacker for me I feel like everything else I'm pretty comfortable with oh oh my god we're gonna do this again height jackpot not 5 and 9 that's 6 foot 10 no yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes 6 4 6 4 that's such a good I yes oh my god I could oh that's the money spot you know who's 6 foot fucking 4 man Isaiah Simmons is 6 foot 4 so I could do Isaiah Simmons once again I need 3 he's huge he's so good if I'm not gonna go with him you know who's 6 4 4 Troy Anderson if I'm gonna rock Troy Anderson though I need to rock Isaiah Simmons Isaiah Simmons is way better if I was gonna go left guard there's not a lot of good 6 foot 4 left guards I have to go Isaiah Simmons or Brian or lackey I've been on the hunt for that Isaiah Simmons ever since I used him last season he's so good if we're gonna win a Super Bowl I need Isaiah Simmons it's that one AP Lerker which is so important for him welcome back I'm sorry Roquon Roquon you'll get moved to MLB 2 I was happy to have you for the game I had you but you are no match Isaiah Simmons for anyone who didn't see the season or episodes where I had Isaiah Simmons didn't have for very long I did have Crusher on him I had Lerker and Crusher on him I'm not gonna run that again because that's 4 AP and my team's too good for that right now but 6 4 240 93 speed 92 excel and 91 at change your direction don't sleep on change your direction for your user middle linebackers very important did it went the whole year without getting height jackpot and I pretty much just hit it back to back we are now a 92 flat with a 92 0 and a 92 D and of course the challenge real the challenge real is why we have Dexter Lawrence we were able to clutch it up last time can we do the same thing today our QB needs 30 fantasy points in a game of Madden that's actually a lot when it's like running backs and wide receivers it's not a lot but for the quarterback that is a lot yeah though lights out baby IQ noobs can't see his top three but I do get to see mine it is brand new two episodes ago none of those players were on this team he's got Jared golf where's he have Isaiah's here Isaiah's here so close he's got a lot of old line ability oh he's not shit a lot is open ooh what a ball and what a catch Palomalos got wheels and he rocks him they got Palomalos this new Palomalos is so different that Jared golf with gunslingers kind of light me up right now he doesn't have anything he didn't have anything he's kind of giving me trouble right now what does he have up there Donald Parham I think I should be too worried about that's fine oh nice move he's got a very solid budget team I'm this throw it I dare you hell of a play now passes before in completion is going to determine how good of a right guard I can buy after this game all it means is we add up all our passes before I well you know what let's just do this let's throw Nick chubb let's complete one there's one so I'm guaranteed 10,000 coins to spend on one player that's if that is the only pass that I complete before going in complete Justin Jefferson is wide open great catch what okay it's a catch as opposed to an incomplete but bro Justin Jefferson hasn't done anything all game I don't know though that's messed up all right whatever I'm not too mad about it we still got two completions before an incompletion and he's gonna throw up to the boundary I'm on it I'm on it I'm on it ooh I'm gonna put Montez in a QB spy because he keeps throwing over that middle and a guest pass get there oh oh you're so close my god oh right here I know you want to holy ball Palomala with acrobatic was so close bro tell me why Jared golf can throw that you remember Gino throwing his pick six so Gino throws that pick six right but Jared golf can throw that oh buddy you're in for it now so it's either a rage quit or I went by 21 those are my promises now you know I you know I've been neglecting Jerry Rice a little bit Jerry Rice is one away from fully maxed I didn't forget about you Jerry Rice I just have lasers to throw oh that's an early breakup oh my god this is so whack shit so I get 20k to spend on one point I always fumble the bag on that challenge honestly I'm just so poverty with it this is zone just really good I think Jay Jedis is wide open oh he saw it but he didn't see this bailout season let's hit take some hill I gotta stop worrying about my challenge I'll just hit next job make it simple another fourth down do I run it I believe I believe in the old line holy shit the old line did not believe in me this is not a really good start we've got a fumble and a turnover on doubts gonna need a big one here boys spooky one back in my hands all right let's stop digging around take some hill beauty they don't they don't make it any prettier than that he's still in cover three that same packages yep same exact package unless this is man shit nice ball nice ball my homes Jerry Rice sheds so tackles we'll take five yards oh beauty nice ball my homes big hit there we're looking at sturdy inches holy shit he's got Megatron strong safety Harold Carmichael corner so his offense is kind of like budget but his defense is crazy our right side oh it's so open great block of collier great stiff arm Nick Chubb sketchy ball that was it that's a fucking ball I'm running that Bo Jackson great block of collier flat Bo Jackson we take a one-point lead heater nope nope I don't need my car I got David Mayo I got it I got it ooh nice ball Ocho Cinco kicker I don't know if Ocho Cinco kicker is built for this kick maybe is oh my god I don't know shit I guess Ocho Cinco kicker can hit from 60 10 to 8 that two-point conversion was crucial let's go score once again two point conversion would make it 16 to 10 doesn't change too much fairly certain this is man coverage let's send Chubb out in case the user is on him if this isn't yep waddle what a fucking ball Nick Chubb is sort of open God Bo Jackson strong safety I'm gonna go inside zone I don't think he sees it he sort of does still got pretty good yards I think we let Taysum Hill clutch this up for us corners to the strong side Taysum Hill down the seam I gotta snap it before he gets to the middle Taysum Hill go up buddy shit that floated so far to the middle this could be a tough game and shit I promise a rage gun I'm gonna get it I don't think he expects the blitz so I'm gonna send it I'm there oh my god how did I not get that lurker Isaiah Simmons I hate seeing LOL you blow it hurts so bad oh that's not man coverage I'm staying in five why cuz I have to score so fast let's see if he can adjust to this nice ball my homes do my homes passes like so fast why wide open might be a touchdown so close so close first single let's go my homes let's go I need dirty with my QB for fantasy points I will I'll take my PAT two points is nice he's got to get in the end zone again oh yeah oh we're in there good hit I'm on the half back this time hey got Jericho off I'm on this I'm on this let's go fourth and fourth from the 28 Dexter Lawrence with a huge pass rush right there I'm putting everybody in coverage he might go half back up the middle again he's been doing it a lot oh he's not he's not open no way let's go let's go let's put Jay Jedis down look at taste him he torched him he might go that's more fantasy points for my homes we're not quite there but now it's a five-point game 17 to 22 up by five two seconds in the third crucial stop crucial touchdown I wonder what my homes is that my homes got two passing touchdowns in a rushing touchdown he's got to be approaching 30 he's not there yet for sure 30 is a lot for a QB he's five wide I'm there is that my ball is that my ball Pat Pete is a god Pat Pete wins MVP LOL you blow LOL you blow LOL you blow LOL you blow very nice of him to put that that username there so I can read it out to him I'm just kidding I think he might be a subscriber I think he sent me a message he said no what the fuck Papa please I can't even talk shit he's subscriber Jesus are you kidding me you don't even have inside stuff how did you get back there let's motion taste him into the other side let's give it a quick snap see if he doesn't adjust why is taste him he'll not running around why is taste him he'll not running around he's fucking blocking damn maybe I should have gone for two now huh yes I didn't really anticipate a field goal that's no good from a home's fantasy points played a little too passive right there but we burned some clock we took an eight-point lead this is a true scenario for man coverage I got to stay on Parham because he's big who nice catch for night he minds he's got that crosser on the left side of Parham nice catch I'm going Palomalu free lane broke up broke up the pass we got in there so fast I'm gonna fake like I'm going to Parham's crosser then I'm gonna come back across the field oh it's a corner out dig dig dig dig dig dig oh I was so close we know these are all passes he threw the ball I suppose where are you I got the corner out we put this game away kind of put it away anyway but a nice taste some hill two-point conversion 16-point ball game I promise you guys I win by 21 right 21 a rage quit I could have gone down at the one there and tried to punch it in with my homes for some fantasy points I don't know it's just you know Palomalu is there see what he goes for here nothing absolutely nothing not on Pat Pete not on the goat man apply a little pressure over the middle oh come on oh nice fucking move nice move dude you're about to get the hammer from Isaiah Simmons he's actually kind of open Palomalu's too good okay now we take this to the one shit the most points we could get would be my home's rushing yards and my home's rushing touchdown just let's just see how this looks if there's a wide open receiver I'm gonna throw it an interception will lose me points though so I gotta be be careful just gonna take the simple pass here Justin Jefferson 18 for 25 to 27 two touchdowns one interception a rushing touchdown and a marginal amount of rushing yards can we scramble can we scramble here I think that was a stupid ass pass but I just threw it questionable ball all right weapon X goes down we have to throw an absolute laser beam all right let's see if the tasting hill corner out this is money yards here not really I'm an open I he if he's in man three deep I just gotta take I gotta take as many rushing yards as I can get here slide everybody drop back I got two double teams in the middle go my homes just go buddy 18 yards rushing I don't think that's 30 great great win though the Super Bowl next so my home's though for a challenge wheel 233 passing yards one point per 25 yards so that's nine points eight points for the two passing touchdowns puts him at 17 a rushing touchdown puts him up to 23 and two points for the rushing yards puts him to 25 and then you lose some points for the interception so he actually was kind of close but just not quite there now technically I did throw two passes before an incompletion so I have 20,000 coins to spend on one player and I actually know exactly who I want normally you'd think this doesn't help my team at all and you're probably right but if I make it to the Super Bowl which I just did I get one prestige player and there are a lot of good options on this team I want to give myself one more good option I'm buying 78 overall TJ Hawkinson for 3,100 coins I'll put him as my third tight end because as much as I love Taysum Hill I wouldn't prestige Taysum Hill TJ Hawkinson a former lion has this 95 overall TJ Hawkinson one AP tight end apprentice he's 6'5 he's 92 speed so he's Taysum Hill but he's taller now there's a lot of players I could have done this with but I really do like tight ends and I think Hawkinson would be really really fun Jerry Rice is pretty pissed about the fact that I got two insane wide receivers but you know it's just like cookie crumbles and Jerry we appreciate you being here so I love you guys I'll see you in the next one peace


The X-TAR EP-449 for the Gen 2 model. It is an all-polymer, upper and lower receiver, an adjustable trigger that X-TAR came out with their own Glock pattern Megzies. This is an 18-round mag, very similar controls to an AR. All right, you got your bolt release right there. It does have a side charger on the left-hand side. You got your safety and a system that most people are familiar with. Now I have a Vortex AR Spark 2 on there. Weight is pretty light. It's all polymer and that's one of the benefits is that it is very light, right around four pounds.


Welcome, and aloha. My name is Mark Schlaufe. I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we will go across the sea to discuss lawsuits that were recently filed in the United States against China defendants with the COVID-19 pandemic. And our guest, Rob Preck, is a lawyer and founder and president of Justice Labs. Welcome, Rob. How are you? Thank you, Mark. Thanks very much for having me. I'm well. Okay. Now, Rob, tell me first a little bit about your background, your relationship with China, what you did there, and, you know, how long you were in China. Okay. Well, very briefly, the first part of my career, I was a public defender in New York City, both as a trial and an appellate lawyer. Then I moved to the University of Michigan Law School, and I was there for about eight years or so. As a professor? Actually, I was running a public interest program. And I was head of the pro bono program and career advising and things of that sort. So that was a great experience. But then I, long story short, I was asked to start a human rights project on behalf of a New York nonprofit in Beijing. And I did that. I went there and I was lived in Beijing for five years from 2008 to 2013. And it was basically a legal education program designed for Chinese law students and Chinese lawyers about Western notions of public interest law, how lawyers can use law to protect people or to vindicate rights and things of that sort. And to launch lawsuits against governments, as you can imagine, it wasn't a particularly popular message among some of the authorities in Beijing. And we would not be able to do that today. But in that period, there was a brief window. And since about 2014, I've been directing Justice Labs. Justice Labs is a 501c3 corporation. It's a blend of being a think tank, focusing on public interest issues, and a resource to students and lawyers who want to pursue public interest careers. And that's been a lot of fun. Wow. So you have had a lot of time in China, in Beijing. And now we're seeing a bunch of cases come up. And I'd like to focus on these lawsuits. These recent lawsuits in the United States have been filed in the United States against China or China defendants about the COVID-19 pandemic. What are these lawsuits about? And what's the basis of these lawsuits? Well, in the biggest picture, the basis of the lawsuits is that people and businesses in the U.S. feel aggrieved. They feel a great damage has been done to them. And so thus far, there has been no mechanism put forth by politicians or anyone else to help these people get redress, to have their day in court, so to speak. I mean, that's an expression in English, to have your day in court. And so on the broadest level, it's an attempt for people to have their day in court. And there are different variations of these lawsuits. In the case of Missouri, it's the attorney general who has filed a lawsuit in Federal District Court as a representative of all of the Missourians who have been injured, who have faced economic harm or wrongful deaths as a result of this. In other states, Nevada, Florida, California, there are suits that are in the form of class actions on the basis of, you know, I think in the Florida case, the class that the lawyers are seeking to certify are small businesses and individuals likewise in California. So they're all brought in Federal Court and they're based on state law. I mean, the attorney general in Missouri, and I've looked at that document and it's fairly well drafted, is basing his argument on violations of Missouri law regarding being a public nuisance or mishandling dangerous activities or breach of duty, those common law tort principles. And you mentioned, you sound like there's like four states that you mentioned, and the people that are aggrieved are Americans, I guess, and the plaintiffs. Can you clarify that?  Right. Well, in the case of the Missouri action, the plaintiffs of the attorney general of Missouri as representative of the people of Missouri. And this morning I was taking a quick look at some of the class actions, and there are named individuals and businesses for the plaintiffs in the class actions. All US entities. Yes, to my knowledge, they are all US people or entities. Yes. Okay. Now, all right. So you have several states, it sounds like government entities of some sort, and they're all brought in federal court. Is that right? That's my understanding. Yes. But they may be seeking remedies under state law, which, okay. All right. And who are the defendants? Well, the defendants vary. I mean, if you look at the, I'm looking now at the Missouri action, I could read off a list. The defendants are the People's Republic of China, the Communist Party of China, National Health Commission of the People's Republic of China, Ministry of Emergency Management of the People's Republic of China, Ministry of Civil Affairs of the People's Republic of China, People's Government of Hubei Province, People's Government of Wuhan City, Wuhan Institute of Virology, and the Chinese Academy of Sciences. And that's the Missouri action. I noticed that the class actions are also including the People's Liberation Army. So I don't know how that all fits in. Wow. And so it looks like there's kind of a division in the defendants between governmental entities and maybe, I'm not sure if they're private entities, but not non-governmental entities of some sort. Would that be accurate? I'm sorry that there's a kind of a division between in the defendants between governmental entities and maybe semi-governmental. Yeah. Well, you know, that's a good question, but it's so hard to even distinguish that in China because many, if most of the many businesses are controlled by the government. So I would say I would characterize it as, yes, an action against the authorities in Beijing plus their agents. Okay. And you said that Missouri is not a class action, right? Is it? That's my understanding. It's brought in the name of the state of Missouri, Eric S. Schmidt, in his official capacity of Missouri Attorney General. But the rest sounds like class action. And you know, the class actions present their own challenges that are slightly different from the challenges that the Missouri State Attorney General has. Okay. Explain that a little bit, please. Well, I mean, there are a number of procedural hurdles, which we can talk about, including, you know, jurisdiction and the standing of people to sue. And those issues are dealt with by the Missouri Attorney General. The added issue in terms of the other state class actions is how do you get the class certified? In other words, there's an initial problem in terms of describing the class of individuals who are aggrieved because everyone has kind of suffered their own kind of injury. And it may simply, I think there's a requirement in class actions, I'm not an expert in that field, that the class be manageable, that it's easily identifiable, that they face the same kind of harms and things of that sort. And so the lawyers for the class action suits will have to convince the court that the people that they are representing or want to create a class out of that it's a manageable group. I'm not saying that's impossible, but it's an additional challenge. Okay, so can you describe what the allegations and claims are being made? Can you generalize? Yeah, let me, I think I can best do it in a nutshell by reading just very briefly one paragraph from the Missouri Attorney General. Missourians from the COVID-19 pandemic that has disrupted the entire world an appalling campaign of deceit, concealment, misfeasance, and inaction by Chinese authorities unleashed this pandemic. During the critical weeks of the initial outbreak, Chinese authorities deceived the public, suppressed crucial information, arrested whistleblowers, denied human to human transmission in the face of mounting evidence, destroyed critical medical research, permitted millions of people to be exposed to the virus, and even hoarded personal protective equipment, thus causing a global pandemic that was unnecessary and preventable. Defendants are responsible for the enormous death, suffering, and economic losses they inflicted on the world, including Missourians, and they should be held accountable. That's it. Wow, okay, and and I guess the class actions might have similar... It's a similar language, yes. Yeah, and are they citing any law or is this, I mean, is there a legal basis or what law are we operating under? I mean, is this Chinese or American? Yeah, it's a murky, I mean, there's all excellent questions. It's a murky area and I think actually this litigation is going to result in some new doctrines or new precedences being created, but right now they are filed in federal district court and they're based on ordinary tort claims, you know. American negligence. Yes, American negligence, recklessness, damage to property, breach of duty, wrongful death, and there are, in terms of my current knowledge, I'm not aware of any international conventions that directly apply, but that's, it's firmly based on common law, let's put it that way. Common law, okay, and do they, in these complaints, do they cite any specific evidence or are these just general allegations? Well, no, they make in the Missouri, the Missouri action lists a whole sort, assortment of pieces of evidence gleaned from newspapers and media outlets and things of that sort, so there are allegations of the specific acts that occurred in Wuhan that they say caused pandemic. That's unsure. So, that's, there are allegations, specific allegations, yes. Okay, and they cite evidence and I guess the evidence, you know, you discussed a number of different defendants and they, are they saying the evidence is applicable to all of them or did they have any specific, well, I think, patients against specific defendants? Well, I think the claim is that the Communist Party directed or supervised all of the other defendants and then the actions, focus on the actions of the particular other defendants. For instance, the Wuhan lab, there's an allegation that there was, there were safety lapses in that lab and that those were ignored and so that's part of the lawsuit as well, that there were complaints in the lab, that there were complaints about what the mayor of Wuhan did in terms of allowing large meetings to take place even after it was apparent that the city was in a epidemic situation. So, there are specific allegations that come from mostly news accounts. Okay, we're going to take a break. Yes. We'll come right back and talk about some of the roadblocks. Okay. These lawsuits may face. So, we'll take one minute break. We'll be right back. Aloha. I'm John David Ann, the host of History Lens on Think Tech Hawaii. History Lens deals with contemporary events and looks at them through a historical perspective or what we call a History Lens. The show is streamed live on ThinkTechHawaii.com. Thanks so much for watching our show. We look forward to seeing you then. Mahalo and Aloha. Rob Preck, we are talking about the recent COVID-19 pandemic lawsuits that have been filed in the United States against China defendants, various defendants. And Rob, what are some of the practical problems that we're facing with these lawsuits? I mean, service, jurisdiction, please, what are the plaintiffs facing from a practical standpoint? And first, I mean, how do you serve these people? And then we'll get into jurisdiction and whether we can even go after some of these. Right. Well, on the question of service, that's a relatively simple matter because that's specified in the statute dealing with foreign sovereign immunity. There is a separate statute that we'll talk about that authorizes lawsuits in the case of certain exceptions to the general rule. Okay. But service, ultimately, if, say, the state or lawyers can't find someone in the U.S. representing the Chinese government to accept service of papers, ultimately, they can send copies to the U.S. State Department of their complaint. And the State Department will convey it to their counsel, their diplomatic offices in China, and then the diplomatic offices will transmit the legal papers to the appropriate ministry. I think this would be ministry of foreign affairs. So services is does not strike me as a big problem. I mean, there are a couple of problems that have been raised by a number of American lawyers as being very big bars to these lawsuits. The first, of course, is the doctrine of sovereign immunity. Yeah, let's say the idea, right. The idea is that private citizens cannot sue the federal government. And then by virtue of the statute called the foreign sovereign immunity act, the argument is that the act prevents citizens from suing governments. But the thing to remember about sovereign immunity is that sovereign immunity is not an inherent limitation on judicial power. It is nowhere stated in the Constitution. It's really a creation of congressional laws and the current foreign sovereign immunity statute, although it allows for limited exceptions against the general rule that private citizens cannot sue foreign governments. There are important exceptions to that. And one of them, for example, was recently the law was amended to permit lawsuits against foreign governments for acts of terrorism or for facilitating acts of terrorism. So as it currently reads, obviously, and based on the evidence of what the lawyers are alleging, I mean, one lawyer in Florida is alleging that this is tantamount to a terrorist act, allowing the escape of these deadly viruses from Wuhan. But I think that's a pretty far-fetched argument. The other lawsuits, the Missouri lawsuit, is relying on certain exceptions regarding if a government acts as a business entity, then it should not be exempt from liability. In other words, if a foreign government had a factory across the border from the U.S. and owned that factory and the factory spewed forth pollution that killed livestock in Texas or something like that, then the foreign immunity statute would not bar lawsuits. Now, given the current state of the law, I think it's going to be a tough sell for the Missouri Attorney General and others to claim that this case against China falls within either the exception for business activities or the exception for terrorist acts. But having said that, this law can easily be amended. A new exception could be created, for example, the public health exception. And Congress, and indeed there are several bills before Congress that would amend this act so as to allow lawsuits and cases where governments recklessly engage in acts that produce public health crises. I think it's very likely, given the political climate right now, that the foreign immunity statute will be amended and that the lawsuits can go forward on jurisdiction grounds. And are these amendments in Congress, I mean, are they a result of the COVID-19 pandemic? Yes, my understanding is yes, they have been introduced since March and April and I think specifically as a result of the pandemic. But putting aside the jurisdictional question, let's assume that people are allowed through the courtroom door. Let's assume just for a moment that either courts or Congress allows citizens or states to bring actions against China for recklessly endangering the health of Americans. There's still this big, big problem of proof, causation. And the problem is that, look, you can allege all the bad acts you might want to in terms of what happened to China. And it includes not adhering to international guidelines for health, lax safeguards at the lab, suppressing evidence of the spread of the virus, not telling the WHO that there was human-to-human transition, all these things. You can list them, but just the fact that China engaged in these actions doesn't mean that those actions caused the damage in America. In other words, there's no proof whatsoever at this point that had the Chinese government behaved completely differently, had it had great safeguards in the Wuhan lab, had it promptly told the world about this pandemic, there's no proof that it would have made any difference. Now, there may be such proof, but the documents that I've looked at, the Missouri complaint and the class actions, don't show a causal connection between the Chinese actions and the damage is done here. We're asked to assume that based on the bad acts of China, that that resulted in these damages to the world. But it can't be so that the causal connection has to be shown. And I hear you also saying that there's negligence, and then after the negligence, they didn't do enough, which is kind of a failure to act, but is there any allegation that they intentionally caused this? Well, that's really far-fetched. Yes, there are allegations. There are some people in America who believe that. In the complaints? No, no. Well, the closest we come to that is in the Florida complaint where the lawyers are arguing that what China did was a kind of terrorist act. So, yes. So, I mean, that requires a very high level of proof, not just negligence, but reckless disregard for the dangers and things of that sort. But even at the low level of proof, just showing negligence is going to be difficult, because all the scientific studies I've seen show that the virus can be transmitted by asymptomatic carriers, right? That it's extremely transmissible. So, I think the problems of proof at trial are going to be a greater hurdle for relief than the sovereign immunity doctor. Let's talk, in a few minutes we have left, just generally. How have these lawsuits affected the U.S.-China relationship? Have you heard reaction from China? Has there been any retaliation? Where are we going just generally? You file a lawsuit against somebody, you get a reaction. What have you seen? What is on the right? Well, as you might forget, the Chinese government, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs did a press conference and dismissed these lawsuits. They called it, quote, very absurd, that there were no factual basis, and the foreign ministry implored the U.S. government. The U.S. government should dismiss these vexatious litigations. So, the Chinese reaction has not been positive. One thing I should say is that what's kind of feeding these lawsuits is China's refusal so far to submit to an independent investigation about the origins and the spread of the virus. I think the government, the Chinese government, could take the wind out of the sails of these lawsuits if it had agreed to some kind of international tribunal. And there is precedent for that. There was, for example, there was a Canadian factory in the 1920s that produced a pollution that hurt farmers in the state of Washington, and the government of Canada and the government of the U.S. set up an arbitration tribunal to analyze the scientific evidence and to put forth appropriate reparations. So, I think China could go a long way to neutralizing demand for people to have their day in court in the U.S. if they agreed to an investigation, but so far they have not. They'll take a little responsibility for what happened. And be in front of it, that might be a way to maybe resolve, maybe to mediate the problem and maybe avoid some of these lawsuits and a way to achieve the goal. And by the way, what are they asking for in these lawsuits? What are they seeking? Damages, I guess? Yes. Basically, they're very open-ended. They're asking for any damages permitted by law for the destruction of the economy of the various states and the deaths of people and the undermining of businesses. I mean, so we're talking trillions of dollars if it ever reached that point. And is the motivation strictly money in this? Is there any implications if there's something more? No, I do think there's a genuine sense of people feeling aggrieved. They don't have work. They can't feed their kids. The deaths of loved ones. So, no, it's this very human instinct to want justice for wrongs that have been inflicted on you by the reckless activities of another person or entity. So there is a call for justice here. Okay, now we have a minute left. Where are these cases going? Where do you see these lawsuits ending up or amending? Where do we go forward? Are there going to be more lawsuits? Yes, I would expect that there will be more and more lawsuits. I mean, the number of people harmed is potentially immense. And so I expect states and law firms to bring these lawsuits and they're going to multiply. I would expect in the short term that Congress will, or at least I think it's plausible in the short term, that Congress will amend the Foreign Immunities Act to permit lawsuits based on the reckless conduct of governments that result in damages to American citizens. I expect that to happen in the next month or two. And after that happens, then potentially the lawsuits will agree on a kind of a common strategy or rationale and they'll go forward. That said, though I think the lawsuits still face a very steep challenge in terms of how do you prove causation? Whatever the Chinese did that was bad, how did those acts directly result or even indirectly resulted on deaths in America? It's a very difficult causation argument to make. And thus far I haven't seen anyone able to do that. Perhaps experts in the future will be able to identify how it transmitted to the U.S. and can establish causation, but right now I don't see it. Well, Rob, that sounds like the subject of another program and we'll be hopefully looking forward to talking to you again about that. And thank you very much. I appreciate your knowledge and expertise and insights. And these cases are very interesting. And I think as you and I may agree, we could have a law school class that would go for a year just talking about these cases. But thank you very much. Thank you very much for having me.


I'm Paola Fortessa. I'm a French MP for En Marche. I represent French people living in Latin America, which is a part of the world that is very open, which is very at the avant-garde in terms of civic tech and participatory process. I try to use digital transformation tools, civic tech, open data to modernize our work, to transform it, and to be able to be more transparent, more participatory, more open. So for instance, what I do is that I put my budget online on open data. I put my agenda online also so that every citizen can see what my activity is, and we launch also a lot of consultations, petitions online. We're trying to think of what are the different entry points on the legislative process where participatory elements could be brought in. I think that there's a lot of new MPs in France. There has been a political renewal, and a lot of young people that came to the National Assembly and that understand the codes of internet and of digital tools. And we have also a population that is very receptive to these new ways of communication of participating.


You should want to be a YouTube rapper I'm gonna make it cool to be a YouTube rapper to do YouTube and rap at the same time be able to Vlog my lifestyle and I ain't got a rap for real.  I'm still clocking six figures a month. I ain't