Hey everybody, today we are debating whether or not we should push for trans normalization and we are starting right now. Ladies and gentlemen, thrilled to have you here for another epic debate. This is going to be an interesting one, folks. A topic we rarely delve into and we have four guests with us. We are very excited to have these guys, really pleasant fellows, getting to talk to them before and I really enjoyed it and want to let you know. If it's your first time here, consider hitting that subscribe button as we have a lot more debates coming up. So for example, Dr. Richard Carrier in Jonathan Sheffield will be debating whether or not Jesus rose from the dead. That will be tomorrow and that should be an exciting one and many others. For example, we are currently working on a debate for next week, feminism on trial. So that should be a juicy one as two women debaters come on and collide on that topic and want to let you know. These guys that you're listening to today, I put all of their links. All four of their links are in the description. So that way if you're listening and you're like, hmm, I like that, I want more. You can hear more. Click on those links where you can hear plenty more and also want to let you know. For today, we're going to have a fairly flexible format. So it's going to be 12 minutes or so split by each side and that's kind of flexible followed by open conversation and there are some subtopics. You could say that these gentlemen will be exploring throughout the debate. I'll let them explain those and want to let you know. If you have a question, feel free to fire into the old live chat and if you tag me with that modern day debate, it makes it easier for me to get every single question in that Q&A list. Super chat is also an option in which case you can make a comment toward the speakers as well, which they of course would get a chance to respond to and it'll push your question or comment to the top of the list for the Q&A. So with that, do want to let you know last point. This is a special point is you look up here and you say, oh, show you all the people, like almost all of the people that email me are white males. So I want to let you know, we are so happy to have you no matter what walk of life.  As far as I know, not that I know of, however, if you're trans and you'd like to come on and debate, the door is completely open. Because we've had trans friends come on in the past. People from all walks of life, we really do want to let you know. We are absolutely happy to have you regardless of what walk of life you're from. And with that, very excited to have these guys. It's going to be a lot of fun. Oh, yeah. So sorry, folks. Forgive me that I know that my mic is like bouncing up sometimes a little bit more than usual. Working on that. Thanks for your feedback. Appreciate it. And we usually have the affirmative go first. So we will kick it over to Mouthy Infidel and Jangle's as we're thrilled to have you guys here. Thanks so much. The floor is all yours. You want to go first, Matthew? I think you can go first. Your opening statements are better. Okay, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. My mic is back. What did you guys have? They ciel sensitively at me? I just don't know. You guys have work through there. T reads. Big Sean. Trans women are women, Our identities are our way of making sense of a socially derived categorization as they relate to our own personal biology and experiences. A Christian is not a Christian because of some innate physical feature they possess, but because of a complex biological need for answers and guidance interacting with the world they live in. Likewise, identifying as a man is more than just a recognition of what dangles or doesn't on your body, but is born from a culturally and historically derived understanding of the differing roles and expectations assigned to you as a member of a dichotomized view of gender. And how that helps you make sense of the internal drives you experience. At the root of this is a neural structure that assisted our most primitive selves in identifying potential mates for the purposes of reproduction. It was only later codified and given meaning through society and culture. Put simply, gender identity is not a new, post-modern invention, but rather an intrinsic guiding force for the current or eventual sexual drive that will manifest itself differently depending on one stage of life and current environment. However, due to the incredibly varied tapestry of human development, some people have a gender identity that is a bit more closely matches the one typical of those born with different genitalia, with a whole host of possibilities beyond two concrete options. This has explained homosexuality in the past, and it explains transgender identities now. Acknowledging that trans women are women, and trans men are men, simply recognizes how they've seen fit to explain their own experiences living in our culture, and it is not a lie or feeding into delusion to concede this fact. As these identities are valid and useful to those who adopt them, with no threat or harm imposed on others in doing so, it therefore makes sense to destigmatize these identities and promote the freedom of choice and expression our society should strive towards. The overwhelming preponderance of evidence confirming the effectiveness of transitioning and alleviating gender dysphoria is, in my opinion, irrefutable. This is the, in hindsight, obvious evidence that confirming and respecting that identity does the same. And though evidence proving a negative is a fool's errand, I've yet to encounter solid evidence showing that supporting and affirming trans identities harms society in any way that goes beyond curtailing to bigotry. We rightfully do not put the needs of white supremacists on par with those people with people of color when considering the supposed harm caused by integration, and unless there is data to the contrary, the same applies to trans people existing as their gender in society.  The empirical evidence heavily suggests that transitioning-related services are effective at improving their quality of life, and increasing their acceptance in society will do no harm to anyone while immensely benefiting said trans people and those who care about them. That's it. Thanks so much. Uh, yeah, I think jangles basically hit every point that I think is like important to go over in an opening statement on this issue. But I guess I can just sort of give my own framing. So what I care about is data unequivocally- Hold on one second. Just to be sure that we don't miss a word, I think that we had just a slight connection issue there. So I think the last like 10 seconds, if you'd be willing to repeat that, thanks for your patience. Oh, yeah. Sorry. So what I care about fundamentally is doing away with as much human suffering as possible in society, given that the data is unequivocally clear that the primary source of suffering in the trans community is the stigma which society has levied at them, which not only harms trans people but has spillover effects into the general population due to the interaction of different demographics in any given society. And given that the data is unequivocally clear that when trans people are more accepted and able to express their gender in accordance with how they identify, it seems that the aim of, it seems that with the aim of mitigating human suffering in mind, the only logical response is to push unequivocally for the acceptance and de-stigmatization of trans people in society. You got it. With that, we will kick it over to CJ and Richard. Thanks as well for being here. The floor is all yours. Do you want to go first, CJ? Either way, I'm not worried. Well, I got, this is the only thing I'm going to have that's prepared, so if you don't care, I'll take it. Go ahead. All right. As a society, the past two decades, we have taken drastic steps in improving the lives of trans individuals, especially through medical advancement, improvement in psychiatric care and better diagnosis of gender dysphoria across the board, along with these incredible steps to improve the lives of people that are struggling with an internal conflict, we must also make inroads at eliminating discrimination towards these trans individuals. We have, through legislation and judicial interpretation, along with just general talents built up in our country, and many other countries around the world created an environment where people attempting to live their lives as the opposite gender have that ability. And while many transgendered individuals still face discrimination and harassment currently, the percentage of them that face harassment has gone down, while the self-harm and suicide rates have not budged from their astronomical levels. We must, we must work to better understand what is going on in the minds of this community, because there is reason to have serious concern for any group of people that experiences depression, anxiety, suicidal ideation, attempted suicide, and successful, and successful committing of suicide at orders of magnitude that are greater than anything in the general population. Studies have shown, sorry about that, studies have shown that transgender individuals, including those that have completed genital realignment or reassignment surgery, are 12 times more likely to have suicidal thoughts than a member of the general population, 18 times more likely to attempt suicide. The 2015 U.S. transgender survey found that 81.7 of the respondents said that they had seriously considered suicide during their lifetime. 81.7%. Now, you can attribute all of those absurd numbers strictly to the stigmatization and discrimination of these trans individuals. But I want to believe that both of these two and the whole audience is a little bit more big brain than that. There is clearly a bigger issue going on, and I believe that it has everything to do with our understanding of how we treat these individuals experiencing gender dysphoria. Our current systems are untested, unfounded, and potentially harmful. We must work not to destigmatize as we have learned that simply making it not weird or socially acceptable to bring no solution. To get a solution, we must remove the politics from this discussion and insert medical professionals that are doing correct studies that are going to lead to actual advancements in care and treatment. Alright, so I think fundamentally this question boils down to the question of whether or not trans women are women and vice versa. Quite frankly, the question of whether or not we should normalize something I think fundamentally should hinge on whether or not said something is true. For example, should we normalize the idea that everybody's third child is a purple unicorn, probably not because it isn't correct, right? On the flip side, when people ask the question, should we normalize things like the equality of the sexes and sexes and races and things of that nature? That is something that is intrinsically obvious to a lot of people, and so it actually made sense to make that kind of an argument and normalize that sort of a thing, right? So when we look at the question here, are trans women women or trans men men? I think the answer is obviously objectively indisputably, it's not even close, no. And I must say I fear tremendously for a society that cannot recognize such a plain and obvious fact, because this is one of the most, and I know I'm using kind of loaded language here, but I'm doing it on purpose, I assure you. This is one of the most plain and practical facts in human existence. It has been recognized by every single scientific field, every single field of study, whether it's philosophy or literature or poetry or history or so on, every nation and culture without any exception, right? Every religion, it is literally indisputable. It is something that is known by three and four-year-olds, right? And the reason I point that sort of a thing out is because if we cannot even accurately deduce this most obvious of facts, to put G.K. Chesterton, a fact is practical as potatoes, right? If we are not capable of doing that, then how can we possibly reason as a society on anything, on anything at all, right? Forget a slippery slope. I am saying this is, I mean, we are essentially saying two plus two can equal something other than four right now is what we are saying, right? And that needs to be made plainly clear because when we look at these issues, the issues that were brought up by my colleague here, right, such as the incredibly high suicide rate, the incredibly high rates of depression, of drug use and so on and so forth, right? That is something that I think we can take a step back and if we are being logical and reasonable about this, very obviously deduce is something that is worth note, right? And it is also worth note as this is happening, as these incredibly negative things are happening, it just so happens that also these people are mutilating themselves incredibly and having an outright, blatantly delusional idea. And I say that without offense, by the way, people often say, hey, why do you think transgender people are invalid or so on and so forth? Let me say that if that is the argument you are making against me, I am very disappointed to know what you think of the mentally ill. Because schizophrenic people are not invalid, depressed people are not invalid, right?  However, if we went up to a schizophrenic person and we started saying, no dude, those voices in your head telling you to, you know, whatever crazy thing they are telling you to do, the visions you are seeing that nobody else seems to be able to see, the auditory hallucinations that make you feel like there is somebody behind every corner that are getting you paranoid. They are totally legit, my friend.  That's nonsense. That's nonsense. And not only is it nonsense, it is cruel. It is incredibly cruel because this person will go on to do something. We don't know what, of course, you can list tons of things, but we do know from the past that either mistreating or not treating people with severe mental disorders like bipolar, schizophrenia and so on and so forth leads them to end up doing incredibly terrible things because a lot of times when these delusions are fed, right, that it leads to something that breaks when reality eventually comes crashing in and then these people have to actually sit there and contemplate the fact that their entire worldview has been destroyed and people around them have just been propping this sort of a thing up. I go on a little bit of a tangent there, but just to make the point that I think it is actually legitimately cruel to the person we are talking about to actually tell them that these delusions are not only okay, but that they are correct and that biological facts, facts that are both obvious to the eye, like the largeness of males comparatively to females and the presence of pronounced breasts on females and things like that, right? Or things that are not obvious to the eye, like for example, monthly period cycles or the larger amount of testosterone in males and so on and so forth, right? If we are going to deny all of these things, right, just simply so we can pretend that we are more virtuous or simply so we can pretend that we are more enlightened as a society, I think what in reality we're going to do is we're going to completely throw away reason and we're going to throw away reason at the detriment of a severely mentally ill population and that is wherever we can see that coming. All right, with that, we will jump into the open discussion section. A couple of things really quick folks. First, KevinGIB saw you subscribe. Thanks so much and welcome to the community. Also, want to let you know we are working on getting our debates on to podcasts. So we will keep you updated on that folks. We are very excited for it as it's been a while we've been trying to get kind of get this taken, get this next move done. And so with that, we're going to jump into the open discussion section. This is a pleasure to have you guys here. I'm sure that you guys, this will be fun. So thanks so much and the floor is all yours. Well, I'm very glad to hear from everybody involved here that we're all a fans of reason. We're all fans of evidence. We're all fans of science, which is fantastic. And like I said in my opening statement, I currently have 21 studies in front of me. Five of which are meta-analyses, actually more than that which are meta-analyses to support my claims here. So I'm very much in favor of reason and evidence. So I'm glad we're there. So I would just question a few of the claims that were made in the opening statements. So just because you went first and sorry if I overstepped my like, if I talk too much, Matthew, sorry. So Todd, you said that studies have shown, you essentially said the studies have shown that despite societal improvements in our treatment of trans people, the suicide rate hasn't budged and hasn't affected at all. And that's to the best of your knowledge, trans people attempt suicide at a rate that is 18 times higher than the general population. Do you still stand by that? And do you have any sources back that up? I'm sorry, what was the number again? I do have the source for you. Yes, 18 times higher than the general, 18 times attempts. Yeah, that came from, do you want me to wink it to you and chat? You can link it or you can just say this title of the study and I'll try to Google it. That one came from, did that come from? I know that may have been from, was it the Guardian article? The Guardian article pushed me to the study came from, sorry, I got to find the link. No problem. One thing, if you want to continue and I can go find it and then we can double back on that if you have any other questions that I can answer. I think dangles, they're having a little trouble hearing you. If you're able to turn your mic. Is this a little bit better? I turned it up. Thanks so much. Cool. So while you look for that study, I have a few studies here that show that transitioning is. Like I said, my opening statement, it's pretty irrefutable. The transitioning helps the mental health and well-being of trans people. Let's see. Let's pull up one at random from what I got here. That's the effect. So I haven't, let's go. Yeah. I do have it for you. Oh, cool. It's a 2015 US transgender survey. Oh, was that by UCLA? I believe so. It's the largest survey of transgender people in the US to date. Oh, excellent. I mean, I'm very familiar with that survey. And so you claim that this showed that like transitioning related transition doesn't help at all. Is that what you claimed? It's not that it doesn't help at all. It's that it does not. It does not alleviate the risk of suicide. You know what I'm saying? It's still 12 times higher than the general population. It's not 12 times higher than the trans women who don't go on hormones. If I have that right. Okay. That survey does not say that. This survey did not take into account to the timing of the suicide attempt in the, in the lifetime of these people. So you cannot make any sort of claim in the survey says this pretty clearly on page three or four that you cannot make any sort of claims as to the effectiveness of transitioning for these people. So in this survey, if you attempt suicide at age 18, go through transition, feel way better and have your mental health completely improve.  And so, but when you're answering the survey, you would still put a yes here. So, so it's counting the suicides attempts that were before the treatment is what you're saying. No, it didn't take into a, let's see. Okay. In addition, this is on page three. In addition, the analysis was limited due to a lack of follow-up questions asked of respondents who reported having attempted suicide about such things as age and transgender slash gender non-conforming status at the time of the attempt. I just read directly from that survey. Okay. So this, I may have, I may have misread the study, but from what I have in my notes, it was a direct, it was direct from that study. But I could be wrong. I may not have it in front of me.    I have a question. Was the point of the study that after transitioning trans people are still, there are suicide rates are still higher than like the general population or was the claim that transitioning doesn't help at all? It wasn't that it was not that transitioning doesn't help at all. It's that we're still seeing a high suicide rate. We're still seeing, and many studies don't show a decrease in the, the suicide rate from people who have had the sexual realignment or reassignment surgery versus people who have it. Okay. Can you point to any study? This is it. Yes. Give me one second. While you, while you do that. So I have a study here from the endocrine from the journal of what is it? Shoot. Come on. Endocrine society. No, endocrine reviews. Why can I find this? Come on. Really quick. If you don't mind me stepping back in really fast. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead. Okay. So that came from the Swedish study, which I've heard people try to debunk offhand. My problem is, is that that, that research and the, the methods that they used were as, um, they weren't perfect, but it's hard to make perfect studies when we're talking about such a rare condition. It's true. But also again, this study does not say that in fact, hold on. Let me, let me find it. Then I must have that. I might have my winks messed up because I, no, that's a very common. No. I had a direct pull from it. Sorry. No, that's fine. This is a very common study that's brought up in, that's brought up in this reference. And the people who are reading that study and interpreting that point from it are not interpreting, by interpreting it correctly.  So I have pulled up in front of me. Let's go things. Are you saying that post-op, post-op, they do not have a high suicide rate? No, they do. Absolutely. But there's a general population, but that's not the, like that's not the proper control. Because if we're trying to see. No, I understand. I 100% understand what you're saying. You're saying that we're trying to compare it against somebody who is transgender, who did not receive the, or yeah, who did not receive hormone treatment or gender, genital realignment. So kind of keep saying realignment, reassignment. So it, it continues to be too high of a suicide rate, regardless. It shouldn't matter whether it brings it down a little bit. Directly quoting from the study. Directly quoting from the study. In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality.  The author of this study, Cecilia DeGiani. I cannot pronounce that name. I actually went on to co-author a meta-analysis showing that transitioning helps the well-being of trans people. This study does not point to that. Hang on. Can you do that one more time? Which say what? Can you say that last quote one more time? In other words, the results should not be interpreted such as sex reassignment per se increases morbidity and mortality. Things might have even been, might have been even worse without sex reassignment. I control F'd have been even and found that quote. Might have based off of what? Based on the interpretation of the, the author's head of this study.  I can cite you like literally, like there's literally countless that I have like sitting right in front of me. There was like a, I could then, I could cite you that, I could cite you that NHS study that Berm, the Birmingham University did where they reviewed a hundred of the follow-up studies for post-op trans. And none of them, they zero concluded or that there was any conclusive evidence that gender reassignment was beneficial for the patient. Well, and I would, I would also know conclusive evidence because that's a really like slippery term like conclusive like evidence, right? But you're also, you're advocating for the changing of some of these gender. I want to have conclusive evidence that this is the correct. I can, I can provide you. I'm not sure what you're citing, but I can provide some evidence that seems pretty conclusive to me. So, I mean, there was a 1990 meta-analysis published in the annual review of sex research examining 11 studies, concludes that transitioning yields positive results in the overwhelming majority of cases that replication or that conclusion was replicated in 2007 and another meta-analysis of 18 studies and was replicated again in 2008. Again, in 2018 in a meta-analysis examining 29 studies, there was also a 2010 meta-analysis published in clinical endocrinology, endocrinology examining 28 studies, which finds that gender transitioning alleviated gender dysphoria and improved quality of life in about 80% of cases. I mean, there's a 2016 meta-analysis published in the International Review of Psychiatry examining 38 studies and concludes that according to the data, the level of psychiatric disorders and psychopathology among trans people improves after transitional interventions. So like, I'm not exactly sure like what you're citing here, but it seems like there is a lot of data suggesting that transitioning does improve the well-being of trans people. And I mean, you can say like, none of it's like conclusive. And it's like, that's kind of a slippery term, but clearly based on the available data, we do have reason to believe that this is the case. Seeing as how this is something that's been replicated so many times. Let's see, I would just like to chime in a little bit because I would be instantly skeptical of a lot of those for one important reason. And I want to go back to that quote that Jangle said for a minute. That is a very interesting quote. So he said, correct me if I'm wrong now, Jangle, but you said that it should not be interpreted was by the way. Hold on, hold on, hold on. I didn't say that. Right. But I'm saying you said as in, you were the one who gave the quote. Just for the sake of all I mean. So the quote essentially says, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the evidence here should not be interpreted to mean that there is a greater morbidity after the fact. So that's interesting because there's a few things. Number one, I don't think that people typically are supposed to be dictating what is or is not to be concluded. I think that's something that the evidence is supposed to do for itself. And then a scientist just actually puts down what the evidence suggests. Pretty much every research paper lists conclusions. Well, of course they're always going to interpret it. That's not what I mean, but you shouldn't be sitting out there saying, well, I mean one should not interpret this. If the evidence it leads to that interpretation, that is obviously what we should be interpreting. It kind of sounds like- Of course. But this, even if- But secondly, hang on though, I want to point out something. What do you mean by the data, the data indicating increased morbidity? Because that almost sounds like what she's telling me is that even though the data is showing a higher death rate, you shouldn't interpret it that way. No. I think this points to a fundamental misunderstanding of how studies are supposed to be conducted. So if you're trying to say this study does provide, and it says it in the conclusions that yes, the suicide rates in Sweden from the years of I think 1970 to- Hold on. Right. In 1973- Yeah, 1973 to 2003. Yes, the suicide rate among transgender individuals was much higher than that in the cis population. The study does say that. 20 times, right? About 19 times, yeah. But what the study does not say is that the surgery itself caused that increase. The control group was not trans people who didn't get the surgery. The control group was cis people matched for birth sex. So that's just a correct interpretation of how the study was conducted. And again, this author went on to be the lead author of a meta-analysis that said as much that transitioning is enormously beneficial for trans people. Yeah. Can I interject something here? Because again, this is important because if the control group of the study is cis people and not trans people who didn't transition, you can't draw any conclusions based on that study about whether or not transition is good for trans people compared to if they didn't transition. And I know you said a little while back, which I was going to respond to. You said, well, the fact that even though if the post-op suicide rate is lower than the pre-op suicide rate, the fact that it's not on par with the general population means that it shouldn't be pursued. But that seems really weird to me because if you're evaluating, say, like a cancer treatment, you're not going to say, well, let's scrap it if it's not 100% effective. Like the issues facing transgender people are very complex. There is the issue of they have barriers when it comes to expressing themselves in accordance with the gender that they identify as. There's the issue of just social stigma and parental acceptance, et cetera. So the model which me and Jengles are applying here would not predict that suicide rates would suddenly be on par with the general population as soon as someone transitions. That's just a part of the larger approach that we'd take to making lives better for trans people. Well, I think there's multiple things that I kind of want to point out. So first off, I do have a quote here from the Birmingham University study. There we go. 100 follow-up studies of post-operative transsexuals that was actually surprised probably in the same Guardian article that you had earlier because that was actually where I originally found it.  It says, the aggressive research intelligence facility which conducts review of health care treatment for the National Health Service concludes that none of these studies provides and they're looking at 100 different studies, right? It includes that none of these studies provides conclusive evidence that transgender reassignment is beneficial for patients. It found that most research was poorly designed which skewed the results in favor of physically changing studies. Yeah, I know this. Yeah, I know this one. Because this first of all, the most important thing to recognize is this was done in like the 1990s. And a lot of the data that Jengels and I are referencing comes like after that. So this analysis of the research isn't analyzing a lot of the research that Jengels and I are citing to prove our position. And that's like the main thing. Also, like I looked, you can't find the methodology of this study literally anywhere. Literally all that exists is a Guardian article about it. There's really no way to like check the validity. So like, I don't know how to like, like approach that and there've been several studies after that analysis was released, which overcome the methodological impediments that the Guardian article found in the existing research, which affirmed the same conclusion. So that's not super relevant. They didn't do that review of the studies though. In the 90s, they did that. In 1990, there was one of them. Now, I specifically like to quote that. Well, the Guardian article was released in 2004. So like even then a lot of the data Jengels and I are citing is after that and it was specifically directed at overcoming the methodological impediments that that Guardian article identified in the existing data. Absolutely. And the problem with this, it seems when the research that I was doing, I found it hard to find good reason, like good data from either side. Even when I looked at the most like heavily reviewed articles, it just, it felt, it felt like it was being pushed in a certain direction. It feels that we have taken what was a mental disorder that we can, that we can treat. And we've turned it into just allowing, we've take it, we've relaxed the standard on who we consider for these treatments. I mean, you can feel like that if you want to, but couldn't we just say that any study that you find that says that it doesn't work was ideologically motivated as well? Well, absolutely. Well, absolutely. I don't really get us anywhere. Well, let's look at something like referrals. Just look at something as basic as like referrals. I mean, would you agree that we've seen a, I think it's like 20, it's like a 20 time uptick in the amount of referrals that. Sure. And this isn't the first time this has happened. So for example, there was a 13 fold increase in those seeking treatment for what was then known as gender identity disorder between 1974 and 1999. That was owed to the increased awareness and availability of that treatment. So just because we see a large jump, that's perfectly fine. It could reflect an awareness. Yeah. Also, I wanted to reduce what may slow down. I'll make it slow down. Well, presumably it didn't slow down. It jumped 13 times here and stayed kind of there. And then maybe jumped again. Another thing is I know you're talk about how there's just like no good studies on the matter, but like this is kind of like, and talk about how a lot of it's probably ideologically motivated, but like this is the equivalent of, if you were to give me like a logical argument and I were just to say, like, no, that's wrong. Like you sort of have to engage with the methodology of the research in order to like prove that it's insufficient. And I mean, there was a recent study that Jangle's actually sent me a while back when we were chatting about this. It was a massive 2019 Swedish total population study published in the American Journal of Psychiatry and the study used random sampling. It was longitudinal. It was quantitative. It had sufficient follow up periods on like previous studies. And it was like the pop, the sample size was literally the entire Swedish population. So like in summary, this study is literally as good as it can get when it comes to studying this issue. And it still concluded that transitioning had a positive effect on trans people and should be further pursued. And what I just want to make it clear that I'm not saying that it is not a positive, that there aren't improvements to the lives of trans individuals once they go through these treatments. My problem is, is when I look at the data and I'm still seeing upwards of, I think it's like five to 7% of all the people that get the surgery still end up attempting suicide or that might be the actually commit. So yeah, because they still face issues like, you know, stigma and lack of a family acceptance. So let's push for those too. So we can go the rest of the way. We'll see. I think there's a few things here because we've been going on about a lot of this. First off, I want to say I think that both and are true about the studies, right? I think it's obvious that a lot of studies are ideologically motivated. And I think it's obvious that a lot of them aren't. So you really just got to take it study by study. There's no problem with, you know, quoting studies and there's no problem with checking your sources. But we can, we can just leave that there. It's worthy of note, but nonetheless. The other thing I would point out though is that so we do have this and I know Django's, you had already quoted this, the long-term follow-up of transsexual persons undergoing a sex reassignment surgery cohort study in Sweden. I'm going to go down here to the results. The overall mortality for sex reassigned persons was higher during follow-up than for controls of the same birth sex, particularly death from suicide. That's what the study actually says. And that's what I said it said. Right. So in other words, what it is very clearly saying here is that there is a 19 times people who have the gender reassignment surgery, right? There's still 19 times more likely to be killing themselves than the greater population as well as some other things. But to just quote here in the conclusion, our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group. Absolutely. Do you want to know one of the reasons that the author of the study said that? Because the overall mortality in their data sets was only significantly increased for the group operated on before 1989. Keep in mind when this data was collected, the study was published in 2011, but their data collection stopped in 2003. So reading from the study, in accordance, the overall mortality rate was only significantly increased for the group operated before 1989. However, the latter might also be explained by improved healthcare for transsexual persons during the 1990s, along with altered societal attitudes towards persons with different gender expressions. This study in their data set, even though their overall data set showed a significantly higher rate, this was a uniform and the later the surgery, the more societal attitudes improved and the better medical treatments got. Yeah. And not only that, but like even taking your interpretation of the study and understanding the value, all the author is saying there is that even after transitional or even after transitioning suicide rates and trans people are still higher than the general population. So just transitioning doesn't suffice as a solution for the harm, like the issues that transgender people face. I, we both fully admit that. That's why we're not advocating that the only solution to this is pushing for easier access to transitioning. Like I said before, transition or like I said before, the issues facing transgender people are incredibly complex and multifaceted. There's a lack of family acceptance. There's general stigma. There's discrimination in like healthcare and in legal systems and so on. So like, of course, me and Jangels aren't discrimination. Yeah. I'm sorry. Did you say healthcare? But did you say like outside of healthcare. Outside of them not being able to just immediately walk in and get whatever they want. What are they? How are they being discriminated against? Yeah. Sure. So I can, can bring up a study I have on healthcare discrimination. Quick though, I do just want to point out good though, because what we're finding here, right? Cause the indicator that I think is, is are the indication I think that needs to be taken from this. If we're seeing sex reassigned people still have significantly higher suicide rates, which you've just informed me that you would, and of course to have numerous times in this debate, that you would agree with, right? So that indicates that there is a greater problem here, especially considering the fact that it's jumping from, I think 19 per, 19 times the general populations will probably, to 1.7% if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. Prior to 1989. That's important. Right. All right. To be fair though, you have that prior to 1989, right? But we know how means work and how medians work, right? That 14 years of data compared to the 16 years of data. First off, they're probably going to have more data as time goes on. Cause I imagine transitioning is happening more and more frequently as time is going on. So, and that of course, as anybody who looks at statistic knows, the more individual people you have, you tend to get more of a watered down sample, because that's just the way the societies go, right? For example, when you have 300 million people in the United States, it's going to be a different sample than if you have maybe 1.7 million people in the state of Idaho, right? So we do know that. And we also know, of course, that the way averages work means they're going to take into account the fact that there is that larger number of transitionings happening in that latter 14 years, right? And yet still we're coming to a conclusion here in the mean, in the average, right? That it's 19 times more likely than the average population. And what I'm saying is that indicates a problem that cannot be explained the way just simply by problems with like the, what would you guys call it, acceptance and things like that, right? Because there are- Hold on. The study you're studying for this data says exactly that. They said that the morbidity went down because of better societal attitudes and because of increased access to better healthcare. Hang on. It might go down- Yes. And even if it did end- And even if it did end- And even if it did end- But still not going down by a significant margin, we're still seeing it being up by a very, very large margin. Hold on. And the reason I'm saying that it can't be that it's not a proper explanation for that is because in any other group, we know because we have many other groups who were treated significantly worse, right? Significantly worse. And they did not even come close to the suicide rate that we have. Okay, two things- I think the highest suicide rate I ever heard- Couple things. Was like a 26%- Yeah. A study that I don't know if it was necessarily trustworthy because I don't know how you could actually get the suicide rate for choosing the Holocaust, but it was saying there was a 26%. So two things. Okay. So for one, this- you draw the conclusion that, you know, the issue can't be explained away by just acceptance based on data, which showed that after transitioning the suicide rate was still higher than the general population, but you can actually take that interpretation away from that data because all that data shows is that transitioning, the medical process of transitioning doesn't completely bring suicide levels down to the general population. It doesn't say anything about like a broader acceptance and like family acceptance or anything like that. Yeah, but that's not health. So you can use that to explain. Yeah, that's not on medical effectiveness works, by the way. Yeah. You can't determine something that is medically effective only if it brings something things down. Yeah. Especially in mental health research, can you find me any sort of mental health? Well, hang on though. Hang on though. That brings symptoms down to the normal population. I do have to get to the second thing that you said though, because so for one, based on that study, you can conclude that just transitioning isn't the whole like solution, but you can't control, but you can't say that acceptance broadly isn't the solution because again, this says this study wasn't tracking like broad, like societal acceptance or anything like that. And secondly, you bring up this point about like, well, groups that were treated worse like holocaust victims had higher suicide rates. It's like that's not really how suicide rates work.  It's a complex sociological process. For example, people in poorer nations like in more impoverished nations tend to have lower suicide rates than people in richer nations. So this just goes to show like it's not a matter of like the worse off you are materially, the more you should be accepted or the more you should be expected to commit suicide. It's a complex sociological process that relates to things like family acceptance and so on. I made clear to word myself very specifically though. So I do want to correct you here. I would that nothing to do with the way you were materially. I said people who were treated significantly worse. Right. We're talking about the international relationship. It's not even a matter of using the Holocaust. We're talking about Christians back in the places where Christians have been persecuted. So on and so forth. Homosexuals even back in the 1960s, 70s, 80s. So on and so forth. Right. There is no study showing any evidence that anybody has come even close to that 41% number that is off-sided, which by the way, 41% what? 41% what? Tuicide rate. Nope. 40% attempted suicide rate. Those two things are extremely different. Yeah. Fair enough. But I think that the. Yeah, but I. Oh, that feels. No, they're vet. No, it's not. So for example, who commits suicide? 41% hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Who commits suicide more men or women? Men are about 70% of suicide completions. Who attempts suicide more? Women. Women. About. Yeah. A lot more. They're about 75. They're about 75% of suicide attempts. So no suicide attempts and suicide completions are not. Another thing is. Is that correct? Another. Sorry. Really quick. What was the rate of attempted suicide in the other groups? Oh, it's. Again, it's much lower. So no one is here as arguing that the attempted suicide rate is not much, much, much higher. I just want to do. I just want to get your number correctly. I just wanted to get your number. It's not 41% suicide rate. That's huge. And that's. Damaging and incorrect. Yeah. You happen to know what the actual suicide rate is. I think it's 26 or 27%. Can you. Put some. I don't think it's that high, but. But. I've, I've seen everything. If you range it out, I see like low 20s. I wanted to address your point here though. Oh, I don't, I don't know what the suicide rate is. So I can really speak to that. It's astronomical. But the fundamental point is here. What's the cause of that? Because James saying like, well, but people have been treated worse throughout history. And still they didn't have suicide rates as high. Well, I mean, again, it's still more complex than that. For example, you have to take into account who is treating people in what way. For example, a lack of family acceptance is way more correlated with suicides than like a lack. He's a. Well, like it's like sociological. And so I think it's a little bit simplistic to just say, well, other people have been treated worse. So they should have a higher suicide rates. And if they don't, then it's not cause of stigma. One sec. Just to be sure that everybody heard it. I'm not sure if it was just me, but for me, it cut out. I think you had said mouthy. You were saying that compared to reduced acceptance by one's family as a predictor of suicide, you had mentioned another one in contrast and that was where it faded out. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Okay. So basically what I was saying is that like you can't just say that you're not going to get a high suicide rate because you're not going to get a high suicide rate. So for me, I think that because of one group is treated worse than another group, they should have a higher suicide rate. And to site is like evidence that like stigma isn't the cause of like high trans suicide rates because it's much more complex with that. You have to take into account a variety of things. You have to take into account who is treating. Those people badly, for example, like a lack of family acceptance is way more correlated with suicide than like a lack of classroom acceptance. You have to take into account how they're being treated badly by phenomena than just like the worst or treated the higher your suicide rate. Something psychologists repeatedly look at. I'm sorry, do you want to go ahead? Oh, well, I will be very quick. I just wanted to point out just the examples that I've used if you notice they I mean, not all of them, of course, like Jews in the Holocaust, of course, are going to be their family is going to be other Jews in the Holocaust, right, to grant that. But people in interracial marriages, homosexuals and people who are converting to a religion that is not necessarily the religion of the status quo, we're going to have that exact same problem. They're gonna be rejected by their family.  Not necessarily to the same extent have almost the exact same as far as the way they were treated in our society. Almost I mean, let's be perfectly frank here, right? Like there was brutal assaults included but not limited to gang rapes to try and rape people straight quote, unquote, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, and the suicide rate for gay people is still way higher than that of the straight population, which is but it is significantly lower than the transgender population. All right. So something that psychologists look at when it was studying suicidal ideation is something called connectedness. Not just how you are treated or stigmatized by society, but how connected you feel within that society. So for example, the reason the suicider rate wasn't astronomical during times of like slavery and Jim Crow was because black people in large part still felt a sense of community with the people who were with them. So there's a study published in the did actually, no, you didn't reference this in the Journal of Gay and Lesbian Mental Health called transgender youth and suicidal behaviors applying the interpersonal psychological theory of suicides and this gets at one of the premier theories of suicide. The psychologists look at the interpersonal psychological theory of suicide. They found that perceived burdensomeness and thwarted belongingness that gets back to the connectedness we were talking about were significantly related to suicidal ideation and or suicide attempts. So it's not just being treated bad. It's how you feel how you feel connected to the people around you, especially your primary support structure, which for most people are going to be their family. Again, though, with that, yeah, well, let me respond to that because like, again, you keep bringing up like these examples of like, well, what about like homosexuals or what about transracial people? Like you would have to like actually present us data that like the lack of like acceptance was to the same extent among those groups and was coming from the same people in those groups and so on, because if you can't actually like present us data on these relevant factors, then everything you're saying is just like pure conjecture. There's nothing scientific about this or nothing we can draw actual like a strong scientific conclusion on. If I could separate. Well, to be fair, I think a lot of those aren't necessarily going to have studies because they would depend on the past and with the area where we were actually in. Right. So that's I'm saying you can't make this claim. Sexuality and transracial. But for example, things like like the persecution of black people in slavery days. I'm not 100% sure that we were actually counting suicide of black people. Probably not unfortunately. Right. And yet. Well, with that data, I'm saying you can't make this commonly known fact, right?  Yes, but you'd have to but again you have to transracial people. But again, you'd have to show me that they're being like rejected to the same extent by the same demographics in the same proportion to one another. There's a lot of again, like there's so many complex factors that go into this that unless you can like actually like present data controlling for all these variables and stuff, this is just like pure conjecture. Like this is really nothing to go off of. I think Todd wanted to get in a while back, hold on. I think Todd wanted to get in back. Yeah, sure. Really quick. I was just gonna say the issue I have right now is I'm not trying to dig my heels in on you know if this is the correct treatment and this is the correct way to help improve trans lives, trans people's lives, then so be it. And I hope that we can go forward and make positive changes and make the you know making a better society for them. However, we take a step back for me, it takes a step back for me when we start talking about children and when we start talking about kids. So if we if we want to step away from you know the suicide rate and you know what is happening to trans individuals at post-op, I just don't think we're getting anywhere. We can do puberty blockers if you want. Sorry. If that's like what you wanted to focus on with children. It's not even just puberty blockers, it's really just like even the stigmatization and the normalization of you know pushing that onto children is I think not a good thing. I would be much more inclined, I'm much more inclined to defend the position of we shouldn't normalize the transition for children that I am adults.  I have a question. What does it count as something being pushed onto children and what is the distinction between being taught and being pushed? And again I know the argument will be made like just because something has been done for a long time does not make it right but for all of human history we did not take children and start giving them either puberty suppressants or you know adding hormones to their body. I think the only logical thing that you can do when you have a child that is you know has gender confusion is to socially transition them. I don't know I don't see any reason that you would start implementing anything other than just affirming their gender. Can I give you like a couple reasons? Yeah. So I think that some of the reasons that it might be good to allow trans kids to take puberty blockers is because and this is the distinction we have to make because you said trans children shouldn't be transitioning. I agree with that but puberty blockers are not transitioning they're the opposite they're just blocking the the puberty that they would otherwise be going through and the reason that I think it's good for children to be able to go on puberty blockers if they see strong persistent gender dysphoria is because for one if you don't go on puberty blockers and you grow up as an adult and you are still transgender as an adult transgender it's going to be a lot harder to actually transition and express yourself as the gender that you identify as because certain characteristics develop with puberty that are really hard to do away with if you've already gone through that puberty and secondly even like disregarding how it's going to affect them when they're adults also in the moment not giving a kid puberty blockers if they have strong gender dysphoria is just delaying treatment for this psychological issue that they have and delaying treatment uh in transgender children has been correlated with um higher rates of depressive worse depression worse psychological functioning higher suicidal ideation there's a large body of research to suggest that the use of puberty blockers increases the well-being of trans people while being pretty safe and effective and I could send you some of these studies yeah I was going to say I'd like to see the again there's one I'm not here to dig my heels in uh on any study if I am presented with evidence to the contrary I'm gonna change my mind but um out of curiosity how many uh how many kids with gender dysphoria end up maintaining that after uh adolescence we all know to have no idea because a lot of the studies so for example you might have heard like the 60 to 90 percent uh decisions right before a lot of those studies just do not say anything close to what they say they do like I went over so for example Dr. James came to uh created a resource that I saw quoted around a lot it was a it was a list of 11 studies and almost all of them like seven out of those 11 were published before 1987 at a time when most Americans thought that same sex relationship should not be legal so society was much much different than and a lot of the rest of them like didn't if uh they get they counted desisting as going to a gender clinic and then not wanting treatment that's counted as desisting but that's not how desisting works you cannot desist from a thing from which you were not diagnosed so if you go into a gender clinic was I mean was found you didn't have gender dysphoria and then just went home and didn't come back you're not a sister yeah also they counted that in that study and in the 30 in the 10 to 30 percent I actually no sorry I you no go ahead cut out sorry I thought you weren't talking but you were because my audio is sorry um but um yeah but um so I actually do sort of have kind of an answer there was actually a study that uh John Doyle brought up in one of his videos which actually sort of confirmed Jengles and I's position um which found that um well for one it found that puberty blockers were uh were effective at my emotional problems as well as depressive symptoms and trans youth decreased with the usage of puberty blockers oh do you see they're effective it for a second behavioral I have the same study yeah yeah can you hear me now yep okay cool um yeah so it basically found that behavioral and emotional problems as well as depressive symptoms and trans youth decreased with the usage of puberty blockers while general functioning improved significantly and here's a point that's relevant because you were asking like how many people like decide they don't want to be trans anymore which is that none of uh they said uh in the study none of the trans youth who started puberty blockers didn't go on to take cross-sex hormones and they said quote the finding supports earlier studies showing that young adolescents who had been carefully diagnosed show persisting uh gender dysphoria and so this is another issue because a lot of people like to cite studies where they're like oh look all these trans people decided they weren't trans later on in their lives but the problem is these aren't people who would have been diagnosed by uh by good doctors with gender dysphoria in the first place um there's a an analysis released by the impact program actually which found that um you can actually see like noticeable differences in the behavior and in answers to surveys between children who are just gender expansive and who would not go on to be transgender and children who actually have gender dysphoria and will go on to be transgender for basically like their entire lives and when you can carefully select for that you find that uh when you like carefully diagnose kids with gender dysphoria you find that there's basically none who don't go on to uh um still be transgender yeah can you where is there a study to show that there's none yeah i mean well in this study I said basically I said hard to believe dude well I said basically none of course it's never gonna literally be none I said there was none no no I even dude even if it was like five percent I would be blown away no I said I'm sorry I thought I said basically none I would never make the claim that like there's literally no I know you didn't say zero but even even it being an incredibly low number just I I find that very hard to believe well that's what the study suggested we'll see and I would also point out to that I would definitely question a lot of the um the uh information that you had just given there in that study and even the study itself I'd like to see how it was conducted because we don't even just decide mental uh you know disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia and things like that in children until they're like 17 years old right but we know what our gender identity is we develop a gender identity by the time we're two or three say that again we develop a gender identity by the time we're about two or three that's what all the research says it's one of the first lenses through which we view the world so gender identity is a very early adaptation that we have in fact to have a study called gender cognition and transgender children published in psychological science in 2015 they found that uh they provided evidence that in early in development transgender youth are statistically indistinguishable from cisgender children of the same gender identity so this is something that kids identify with and uh can be pretty as persistent with I mean I would just absolutely have to check the background of that study because I just flat don't believe that it makes absolutely no sense there is no deal I do absolutely hang on I just I just need to say that there's absolutely no way that a two to three year old child who is literally at some but in some instances not even capable of forming words you know what I mean um that there's no way that that person has actually got a full and complex gender identity it doesn't even make any sense but you can feel that way that doesn't let me fall away there are kids there are kids that go from playing their little girls that start their young life playing with trucks and then by the time they're 13 they grow out of it like you're saying you are saying that that is a unlikely hood and it's just not it's a lot of human history that's how it's how the study was conducted that like they found a bunch of girls who like trucks no no no I'm just I'm giving a one-off no I'm just giving a terrible analogy but I just find it hard to believe that a child's gender identity is set at two boom set is a hard way don't let children make any decisions on the wrong yeah I mean a young girl can't even go get her I don't even care about decisions permission you're saying their their brain is two years old it's 23 years of development and you're going to say that their gender identity is set then exactly my point we're sitting here in a society where people argue that you shouldn't even have people like sleeping around with people at the ages of 18 and 20 because they're not complex enough to understand that sex makes babies and yet we're going to sit here and argue that we have a full and complex understanding of gender identity well you both of you keep saying this full and complex understanding and that's not what either of us said and that's not what the research says at all you said the gender identity is form established two or three a rough idea of it yes now ask a three-year-old ask find a niece or nephew if you don't have any kids of your own ask them if they think they're a boy or a girl most of them will have some sort of idea I told you gender identity is not something invented by trans people or only a clickable trans people all of us have gender identities kids have gender identities whether there's cis trans or something else like it's just it's the first lens through which we view the world in a societal format that's I'd also like to I'd also like to bring up like you you guys can say that like you feel this way like you really feel like you know trans kids who are given puberty blockers would have otherwise like changed at some point but that's just not what the data suggests like I just gave a study show that that's just not the case I want to actually see that data and go over that for myself because I know a lot of people can interpret data to say a lot of things and I mean again the authors of the study cited other studies and because the direct quote was that this confirms previous studies it says the finding supports earlier studies that young adolescents who had been carefully diagnosed should persisting gender dysphoria and they cited like other studies showing this so there's a variety of studies actually would show that when carefully diagnosed gender dysphoria is persistent yeah I understand that you're saying that but if I ask Steven Crowder the same thing he's going to tell me something different so that's why I'm saying like I will I will let him set aside a study for you well okay here's the hilarious part Steven Crowder actually cited the study I'm giving you in a video that's where I like both Hunter Avalon or not Hunter Avalon I like Hunter Avalon John Doyle the evil Hunter Avalon and Steven Crowder both cited this study both in an attempt to show that if you give kids puberty blockers it makes them trans whereas they otherwise would have changed their gender identity but the authors of the study that they both cited without actually reading the study said that the reason there was no desisters is because the gender dysphoria was carefully diagnosed and that this is in a continuation and confirms the already established conclusions of previous studies examining whether or not gender dysphoria is persistent when carefully diagnosed okay so just to ask me I just got a question then why is it that because you say you've seen carefully diagnosed I mean people carefully diagnose things I mean we like I said we don't even diagnose people with other sort of psychological phenomenon until well into their either pubescent or post pubescent years that's not true that is absolutely not positively as a matter of fact for autism ADHD depression and anxiety all these things to be I was I was actually you can see like the physical because the difference between somebody who is autism somebody who is schizophrenia is that the autistic person is actually typically shown to have either heightened or in many cases lowered motor capacity right it's a you could argue that it's a physical detriment whereas we don't really know the specifics behind things like schizophrenia and things like that um so that's a completely different thing things like ADHD arguments about ADHD whether or not it even exists so I'm not going to get into that okay that's the thing about mental that's the mental illness so that's the thing about mental illness that all has to do with medicalization and like how or functioning is impacted in your environment so you might make the argument that ADHD isn't a real mental illness but that's kind of meaningless like does this impair your functioning in your day-to-day life in your society if so we can classify it as mental illness well I mean ADHD definitely is a mental illness but by that classification mental illness that absolutely includes well if you know it doesn't know it doesn't actually really make the argument doesn't impair their day-to-day life they literally mutilate themselves and are attempting suicide at a question is getting I got it all on can you see this I got a industrial piercing do I have a mental illness because I mutilated myself what is that definition yeah also like I mean by that same all the way by that same argument I cut my foot off it's just a bar obviously you know the difference it's intrinsically obvious let me just say this so you talk about how it's something that impairs like day-to-day functioning that's the definition of mental illness and trans people are there for mental ill by that definition that's actually not a completely precise definition the APA actually has a page where they talk about whether or not trans being transgender is a mental illness and they define trend what a mental illness is and then explain how being transgender is not a mental illness because the thing is it's not just if something impairs your day-to-day functioning that's a mental illness it has to be that like is the cause of that impairment and in the case of trans people we know that the suffering that they experience primarily arises in response to things like stigma and discrimination and harassment and so the being transgender actually isn't inherently the cause of the actual mental illness the actual mental illness is known as gender dysphoria and if you're going to appeal people have that yeah yeah exactly if you're going to appeal to mental illness you're going to have to cite the reputable organizations that define mental illness for us and when you do that you're going to be really you're going to be really interested in finding out what they recommend to treat gender dysphoria for the record I would quickly point out just because I knew that this would come up I'm going to go ahead and pull up the definition right now because I did have it up here I would quickly point out however that in the DSM-4 this is going to be different so if we are just going to strictly just go by what these people are saying then yeah but why would you go by D.A.M. DSM-4 definitions when we have the DSM-5 which is like okay that's exactly my point though so was the DSM not trustworthy during the four or was it all the sudden trustworthy during the science it's not about it's not about no no it's not about being trustworthy it's about the fact that scientific models change over time in light of new data well the I got the definition here from the DSM-5 is does a mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition emotion regulation or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological biological or developmental processes underlying mental function that is absolutely something that would include wait dysphoria and transgenderism absolutely why don't they say the second one and only say the first one in fact and why would they recommend people with gender dysphoria transition to alleviate it yeah yeah trust their definition only if you trust their definition contradictory things numerous times let me trust their definition enough to use it why would you not trust their like treatment recommendations that doesn't make any sense to me and let me let me hold on I can deduce whether or not you don't have a foot that doesn't mean I know the best way to make a process wait hold on hold on so okay so you appealed to the dsm definition here is a quote from the American psychological association which publishes the dsm so this is the authority yeah oh yeah sorry yeah um so this is the authority that you're appealing to right now and they say quote a psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder for these individuals the significant problem is finding affordable resources such as counseling hormone therapy medical procedures and the social support necessary to freely support their gender identity and minimize discrimination um so if you want to appeal wait wait if you want to if you want to pull in one sec cj if if you want if you want to appeal to the authority of the americans psychiatric association there they were explicitly disagreeing with you hold on i'm not even appealing to their authority in fact more of what i am actually saying because if you notice i did point out the dsm is going to disagree the dsm four is going to disagree with the dsm five and we do need because they literally directly call it a mental disorder in previous dsm's and then contradict themselves in dsm's that have come out it's not a contradiction it's it's not a contradiction scientists update their models and i understand that but my point in quoting the dsm was simply to say that even by the definition of people who do not agree with me this is absolutely something that is a mental disorder there's no way why would you say this when you say this what do you mean when you say this what do you mean the idea that you are a different biological sex than you are whatever i don't know that is not the definition of gender dysphoria you're not even close to your definition there either way i quite frankly i don't necessarily care what the specific definition is everybody knows what i'm talking about right um well we don't know we don't think that they are a different gender and they go out of their way to transition quote unquote to this other gender as if such a thing is possible when it is not absolutely is that is a mental disorder that is a severe mental disorder causes people to severely mutilate themselves it has obvious very obvious psychological traumas that are associated with things like suicide depression drug use so on and so forth all right so we're going back to all that like stuff that we demonstrated empirically isn't true every other group that has ever had a stigma on it has never come close to these rates all right okay all right we'll switch it Todd Todd do you want to talk i'm sorry you've been quiet for no no no you're fine i'm just again this is not my field of expertise by any means so um i'm really just i'm learning just along with this whole conversation however what i'll say is i'm just curious you keep saying that there's empirical data there's like there's empirical evidence of all of this i just i'm i will want to just see the that data i'm just 21 studies it really does contradict yeah just it contradicts yeah when you start doing when you start doing research and you start looking for you know you're looking for to affirm your position you find these same talking points over and over and over again so i don't know right from everything that i read there's a incredible lack of evidence and a and when it comes to kids um like we said you weren't saying to transition them but to put them on puberty uh to put them on a puberty suppressant wouldn't be a big deal but i'm just curious do you are there no like side effects to like suppressants because i i have here adverse effects on bone mineralization right so compromise fertility right to me that would be just enough right there um date on the effects of the brain haven't really been established so um okay so i there's a few things to to go over here so um for one like before we pivoted to uh sorry i don't mean for pivitives like a pejorative but like before we like move away from this the the previous topic i just wanted to to talk about this transgender mental disorder thing one more time because jay said that by the definition of people that he doesn't agree with transgenderism is still a mental disorder and the people he doesn't disagrees with that he was referring to is the apa but i literally gave quotes from the apa where they explicitly said that by their definition being transgender is not a mental disorder and again when it comes to things about like other groups have been treated worse this is much more complex than that yes but but not all trans people have gender dysphoria would be absolutely but aren't the ones that the ones that are going to be going through a transition and the ones that are facing the most you know the highest levels of problems the ones with gender dysphoria probably um probably yeah for the most part okay so i i feel like that should probably be where i'm not saying all the focus and obviously there are going to be exceptions to that rule but it feels like what he was saying is that gender dysphoria is the mental illness right well well he did say being trans like to be trans is mentally yeah so we can what is your death what is something outside of gender dysphoria that would wind up in that category right so so being trans is just having a gender that doesn't align with the sex you were born with and gender dysphoria is like an intense state of psychological uh despair like distress as a result of that so it's it's sort of a different thing like you can be trans without having gender dysphoria um so yeah being trans isn't necessarily a mental disorder but we can sort of you just you did just say you just kept saying trans though i'm curious outside of gender dysphoria there's a direct parallel to be made there's a direct parallel to be made especially the apa for talking about the american psychiatric association with homosexuality so in 1973 the apa proposed removing homosexuality from its list of disorders and they proposed replacing it with something called sexual orientation disturbance and that's really really close if we're talking about parallels to go in from like gender identity disorder to like gender dysphoria so it was a mental illness to be homosexual because it interfered with your life because based on these clinicians understanding of what it meant to function in society homosexuality fell outside of that and that's an argument go ahead sorry is there an argument to be made though that i'm sorry i got lost on listening to you i'm i apologize i talk fast i'm sorry i'm no i'm sorry you're fine i'm fast um get it finish your point sorry about that uh i was basically done i said that there are a lot of parallels of course it's not the same thing but there are a lot of parallels to how we treated homosexuality and in the way we treat transgender people today i'm sorry i did remember so when we talked about sexual orientation does does trans fall into sexual orientation because to me that's a that's a very that's a tight tight rope to walk it's not the same thing but they're related if that makes sense so you have a direct impact on your sexual orientation though just because you think it's really i haven't seen other gender uh well if you're a trans woman and you like women you're lesbian so that changes your sexual orientation so in that in that way uh i have some studies that's just a label that's just a label but okay of course yeah go ahead i'll say well i do have some say can i just provide like a study for what todd was asking for because uh he asked me for a study on like the idea that puberty blockers are like safe and effective he brought up fertility and um uh bone density the fertility and the bone density thing i'm actually very familiar with uh but the thing that's important about that is that while puberty blockers can have some minuscule effect on uh bone density while uh people are on puberty puberty blockers this is something that goes away after the person stops taking puberty blockers and this was confirmed by a 2013 study by the endocrine society and then as far as sterilization um the issue isn't that puberty blockers make you sterile that's actually a confusion between puberty blockers and cross us hor sex hormones puberty blockers don't make you sterile but if you go on to cross sex hormones after taking puberty blockers uh then you uh will become sterile um so that's hypothetically if you but isn't the suspension hypothetically obviously this is not how the treatment would work but if you suspend puberty you can't do that indefinitely correct um so hypothetically there is a we're still working with the time frame yeah so you are taking a risk yeah i know they aren't but you by adding them you are taking some level of risk of sterilizing yourself oh what's the risk it would be wouldn't it would sterilization by by delaying puberty correct well no because you only uh become sterile if you go on to take cross sex hormones but there is no existing data to suggest that if you take puberty blockers for any amount of time that's going to in in itself make you sterile there is an endocrine society study which basically we found that this gram which finds that this isn't really the case so uh yeah this doesn't necessarily seem to be true yeah i'll look into it i'm just care because uh the point that seems to get driven home is that those three side effects of the puberty suppressant and they typically don't they purposefully do not say hormones they're talking about puberty suppressings or suppressing puberty so i don't i'm just yeah well yeah that's just i mean if there are data that i'm familiar with it seems like this definitely isn't something that's been replicated at all because i have a bunch of studies that seem to show that there is no long-term impact on sterilization or bone density when it comes to taking puberty blockers you'd also have to prove that a reduction in bone density would be a problem like you can have plenty of strong bones with it like let's say a five percent reduction in bone density that would be statistically significant and worth reporting in a study but it still might not result in any sort of long-term negative outcomes for kids we extra step you would have to go we do want to go to q and a pretty quick here okay sorry about that once somebody if one of the if someone is willing to defer to giving on the other side the last word we won't assume it means that you don't have an answer don't worry about that we know you've got another round in the chamber ready to fire but just for the sake of getting to these questions and i have to say this has been an awesome debate it has been very thought-provoking really great to listen to so i hope everybody else out there has enjoyed as much as i have and also yes i'm so glad that we've had people say hey i would love to come on and debate we would love to have you like i said no matter what lock of life you're from absolutely love to have you and so with that by email by the way in case you didn't catch it for those that i did give it to in chat is modern day debate at gmail so feel free would love to hear from you and then super chats jeremy tea thanks so much said cj what scientific law says males cannot wear dresses i mean there's no scientific law that says anything about what you can or cannot wear i mean there's scientific you know facts about like for example if if you wear no shirt or a bikini or something like that you might be more susceptible to sun cancer but i guess that's not really like a dictating what you can or cannot wear right it's just saying what may or may not be a good idea and of course sunscreen will help with that anyways but i don't i think the question is kind of just a little bit ridiculous honestly gotcha and so sorry about my mic folks it's it's been really weird tonight so i'm working on it now appreciate your feedback in the chat that definitely helps as i have no idea what's going on with the mic it's it's not normally like this but we're going to make it next thanks for your super chat from nela dower says yes it's a conclusive that transitioning improves outcomes for trans people i'm living proof so i think this came up in the debate there was but we'll give you a chance if you'd like to respond um i i would just simply say and i don't say this at all to discredit anything i'd more say it just to make the point as strongly as i can i met people personally who believed that hardcore drugs has improved has improved their mental state it doesn't mean it has and i'm not comparing this person directly to being a hardcore drug but in this case but in this case their claim is actually like directly backed up by all of the data there it's not just an anecdote in fact we wouldn't awesome for her or him yeah which one was it i think i couldn't remember uh awesome for them but we wouldn't use this one person as definitive proof that's why we had they just their anecdotes their anecdotes has to be backed up by a law institute and don't like quantitative studies and we are going to i can give you the last word for the team who the super chat was directed toward just we don't gang up on you and then we got to go to the next one pithy last response from you guys and then we got a if you want you don't have to but go ahead Todd i was just gonna say didn't want to be a dick but yeah anecdotal um and i mean there are plenty there are obviously gonna be post op transit uh transgender people who are unhappy with their surgery so layman thanks for your super chat said good job jangles and mouthy infidel you guys have a fan out there and uh p barns thanks so much p barns said we're debating whether accepting someone for who they are will impact their well-being am i awake uh i mean i guess i i would just simply disagree with the premise i mean that's that's that's my problem with this is that's not who you are you might believe that but it isn't true are you a linguistic realist there's obviously the intersex but like that that's a disorder right are you a linguistic realist say again i'm sorry you could i are you a linguistic realist i'll linguist i guess i'm not a hundred percent familiar with the yeah so my my point is that if you're going to say that like if you're a linguistic realist then that means that you believe definitions are like dropped down from like the sky or something and are just like intrinsic if you're not a linguistic realist because it's a completely untenable position then you must believe that definitions are just things that applied like words are just things that we use to communicate with each other and if you understand that that's what words fundamentally are then any definition of the term woman based on like chromosomes or like biology is going to be untenable because that's not how we use the term woman because you can't see someone's chromosomes in any social setting i mean i i feel like that wouldn't necessarily be something that i could take an either war position on i mean on one end obviously we invented the word man right it didn't come down from on before chromosomes on the other end though we had a very like there's a clear definition of the word man and everybody in this room knows exactly what i mean when i say the word man right but i could tell you that i have XX chromosomes and like a vagina right now and like i have been taking testosterone now of course that's not the case but it could be and you've assumed i'm a man for that entire debate and this is that's my entire point is that we don't defer to we don't refer to like a man or woman in the like biological sense that you're defining in any social setting so it's impractical to say that that's the definition because it's not that's not how we understand it man though just because just just because i i i value weight you as a man or i judge you as a man it does it doesn't make no it doesn't but i think it does because the definition of a word unless you're linguistic realist is going to be determined by how people tend to use it and if people tend to use man not referring to biology incorrectly can people know if every word if everybody's using a word incorrectly then they're not using it incorrectly that's my point because we i hate to are determined by how people use that oh no we we do have to move on to the next question i can give you because the uh super chat was targeting cj and richard i can give you guys the last word if you want to make a quick and pithy response and then we got to move the next one i mean i would just simply say that we know you know what we we know what we mean when we refer to the word man of course we invented the word man as humans but it does have a set definition that we all agreed upon and it describes the masculine of the two sexes next up thanks for your super chat from merlin 72001 says wish anti trans rights people would just be honest trans people make you uncomfortable it doesn't make you evil just a big it i love you like i don't i absolutely see this is a rock see here's the problem i absolutely do not want to get and i don't think uh jay over one over here wants to do it either get lumped into this idea of thinking that we think transgender people are evil i'm looking at it from a place of compassion and wanting to make sure that they are given the correct treatment and we're taking the right steps at the right pace and not rushing to something just because society is um saying it's the correct thing to do yeah for what it's worth uh for when i wrote down on your opening statement you said that society has taken good steps and improving the lives of trans people and that's good we want to improve their mental well-being so i would definitely not call you a bigot but i what i've hoped that we've demonstrated is that all the empirical data that we've been able to gather including five meta analyses for me a bunch of studies from malathe that obviously i don't know exactly what that is that i can't wait to review them yeah cool yeah i just haven't been able to see it yet you know what i mean sure i'll post it in a twitter chat when we're done here okay absolutely jay if you want a quick chance to respond and then we'll move the next one i mean i would just quickly say i mean everybody at this point has been you know being a conservative i'm not gonna lie i'm called a bigot once every five seconds so the word has virtually no meaning to me anymore i say that a little tongue-in-cheek of course i know there's real bigots but um look my view on transgenderism is essentially that i believe it is cruel to take a mentally ill population and to basically go out of your way to say that their delusions are justified or somehow valid it doesn't mean that they are not valid it means that the delusions that they have are not valid and i also think that when people say you you believe i'm not a valid person because you think i have a mental disorder i mean that is a horrible view of the schizophrenic the bipolar and etc right to think that they we just invalidate them because they're mentally ill it's not true at all next up nela i hate to interrupt you just to keep it short and pithy nela doward thanks for your super chat who said facts don't care about your feelings richard next up matryoshko thank you for your question they said how come all the anti trans data is from 1967 is that true i mean i might have been like uh most of the studies that i found were late 2000s early 90s but i was also under the impression that data is hard to collect when we're trying to you know look at you know time frames of 30 40 years gotcha and thanks for your statement from matryoshko strikes again says trans women are valid women regardless of your bias next up thanks for your proof next up i'm sorry i have to stress that it isn't correct merlin seven two zero zero one i can let you keep going if you want to say more but otherwise i'll keep going no it's it's it's no i don't it'd be redundant essentially you know i'm just saying you know we there are biological facts we need to install where do you think definitions come from hold on i'm not i did that's a that's a ridiculous semantic argument because i know it's not we're talking about semantics no we're not though we're talking about the concept behind the semantics right um we know when we are just describing a male right we didn't understand chromosomes but it just so happened that it was amazing scientific coincidence if that's what you believe that what we described as a man could be linked to the xx chromosome or is it the x y i guess it's not a hundred without fail no um without fail because again there's going to be those plenty of things that happen there's going to be people who can't wait hold on hold on you can objectively skin or something along the line because you can find people you could find people who look like males who express who is somebody who anybody would describe as a man who doesn't have those chromosomes so that's that's simply not true that's not a valid way to define that word i've got a we gotta i'm gonna give a give cj a response for this one and then we've got to keep moving we got to go a little bit faster just because i've got a we're a little over time so go ahead cj if you want to respond and then we'll move the next question um i would just simply point out that saying that intersex somehow disproves the rule is absurd on its face um something is not disproven by a by a problem or a chink in the chain right next thanks for your question from merlin 72001 says cj bringing up out-of-date papers to support his already held position based on his past a historical and anti-scientific positions and arguments in other debates is adorably ironic i mean you can't really have a scientific position on whether or not confederate statue should come down so i guess i'm not sure what they're referring to as far as past debates here you got it maynard saves thanks for your question said fool enough to almost be it cool enough to not quite see it doomed pick your pockets full of sorrow and run away with me tomorrow june thank you very much is that i'm only thinking cool enough to almost be it i don't know i i think it's musically expressed i don't remember what it would be uh now a dower thanks for your your question says rich just quote feels unquote people are pushing it on kids okay my feelings i added that last part sorry at at least at bare minimum times more referrals and the drastic decrease in the mean age of those referrals gotcha and i forgot to mention christina saw you subscribe thanks so much as well as pork town biker and fatal animal really thrilled to have you with us welcome and next super chat from talison overlander says trans folks are more valid than the confederacy i don't know if anybody's bothered by that though are you confederates you guys not like any other research sense i want to be a real life confederate okay research i'm curious on that brandy human next up thanks let's see we got that one uh mothra j disco thanks for your statement saying cj stop debating you keep getting owned i mean that's fine that you think that i mean that's all i got to say about that really thanks for being thanks for being a good sport with all these these like malicious super chats for you um i just love his neck internet like owned destroyed and phil kelo thanks for your we'll still say poamed is that a thing people still say no i think that's not a few years ago am i really old i thought it was still cool by the way speaking of old school internet jenna marbles you probably saw on twitter am i the only person that saw jenna marbles taking some time away from twitter did you guys not see that did you quit youtube why i said that's right youtube sorry i have a story about um no joke with all of youtube well at least for a while she's walking away now you guys want to believe this nobody believes it when i tell my first youtube channel which is just when i was in college dinking around like making like silly videos jenna marbles was subscribed to i'm serious i think it was that she used to like back then this is like 2006 everybody would just go subbed like every account you could find and like because they're like 12 right they're 12 in total yes so so it was probably that i just happened to be one of those like thousands that she's subbed to but later she unsubbed very discouraging that's so thanks for your super chat phil kayo oh oh jeez okay cj i'm sorry i have to read this i mean they're paying they're paying my year said cj again showing himself to be a garbage humid i'm sorry cj hey it's perfectly fine i i did you know i did maybe say like the primary portion of our side of the debate which is a pretty hated side of the debate so should be expected i appreciate you being a good sport about all these insults and next up ariel for nanda's thanks for your question said cj cox do you believe in flat earth trans rights uh no next all these little okay that's the minor profit thanks for your question said yes mouthy words don't come from the sky but if your definition of man and woman is entirely dependent on what the person identifies as then it's just a useless concept i um how do i know i'm hold on how do i know i'm gay let's let's go with that definition how do i know i mean is there is there a genetic test you can do on me is there like a like a blood test you can determine whether i'm gay there's something you can look at do i have like is that they're like the finger length thing if one finger is longer than the other i'm gay or do you trust my self-identification because my like uh what's it called let's see uh my first person of authority over my own mental state it takes precedence like i get to decide what i am and how i feel well can i just try being real quick though because that that is fundamentally different well how you feel about somebody else you know in a sexual situation or a romantic situation is not the same thing as something that actually has like physical um but they're both identities that's the relevant identities yeah yeah i gotta give mouthy the last word on this just because the super chat was targeted at him emma ross thanks for your question said richard and j and cj have either of you actually met and listened to a trans person's perspective several i go to one of the most liberal universities in the state which state are you in have Ohio okay gotcha oh you're like right above me great yeah the greatest state in the union i i love Kentucky though that i don't think that that's necessarily relevant i mean it sure it helps but you know that the the um the truth would not have changed either way for my side or against it if i had if i talked to a transgender person kind of a non-cycle when you say truth i'm sorry do you want us to get through these we uh let's see i'm trying to think of i we only have like maybe one or two more questions if you want to do a quick pity response will give you that and then okay real quick yeah so uh when you say like delusions and truth and all that stuff like trans people by a lot of do not say that they have things that they don't have they're interpreting their feelings they're interpreting like how they and there's genetic uh links there are genetic markers for gender identity this is not something that you just like it's fully socially constructed there is a genetic component and what they're doing is while their genes interact with them is here oh anyway while their genes interact with an environment in a way that makes them feel more comfortable and more self-actualized by identifying with a certain gender or or you know as non-binary so they're not delusion they're not saying things that aren't true they're telling you a true version of how they feel and how they want to identify in our current culture i give you the last word for our friends who lean right or um for americans politically right uh if you want to respond you can and then we'll go to the next one i went out so i didn't hear the question but if you want cj uh yeah i would just say that you know they might accurately describe how they feel that's perfectly fine um but i would again go back to the you know the phrases man and woman are meant to portray um biological concepts right that's what the the definitions that we use is we have actually agreed upon now in modern society and of course in the past as well is that those they're referring to the biologically masculine and biologically feminine sides in fact the language is so loaded that you can't even describe the two sides without calling one feminine in the other masculine are genes biological got to keep moving um let's see one two three berserk thanks for your question said mouthy how are you defining a man i am a cis man if i wanted to identify as a woman you basically can't tell me i'm wrong according to your argument uh yeah not really i mean for me a man is someone whose gender is a man and gender is sort of an amalgamation of gender identity and gender expression and because words are defined by how people use them in society and 99 percent of the time in society when someone is using the word man they're referring to someone who identifies and expresses themselves as a man and that is the definition of a man so the trans men fall into the definition of man yeah people don't know about that definition he's saying hold on people confuse identifying and saying all right if this person truly identified as a woman that'd be a woman but what they're not what they're not being genuine with that question they're saying like if i said i was a woman would that make me a woman like no it is a self-actualization of your intrinsic identity it's not just yeah but isn't it just how the other the third party perceives it there's a certain truth to that like how you're perceived by other people has a lot to do with well isn't that the crux isn't that the crux of mouthy's argument the crux of my argument is that when we use the word man in almost every case we're referring to someone who identifies and expresses themselves as a man what okay so by that definition he could just theoretically say that he isn't a woman he could say no no no it's simple no saying no i know i know you i know you want to know it's not like an i no it's not a nitpick it's a really important distinction to make like identifying as a really like complex cycle uh logical like phenomena like once identity has roots in like genes and it's a really complex thing yeah i feel like hold on one i hate to do this but just because we've we've got limited time and and the super chat was directed at at mouthy i want to give him the last word so brutus lugo thanks for your question said what is a woman and what is a man how do you distinguish between the two i think maybe this is for all parties i'm not sure that's going to be mouthy right i would say that it's kind of um everybody i mean not everybody sorry i was responding to both the things you said that the who's it to and then anyways i would say that there's numerous ways you can kind of tell the difference there's a lot of superficial differences by which i mean things that you can just see with the eye for example men on average are 30 percent bigger than females are we tend to be taller we tend to have more muscle mass there's obviously you can do us studies to look at the testosterone levels and men will on average have higher testosterone levels and so on and so forth there's numerous differences that you could look at that would indicate differences between the genders but just the pure definition i mean man is defined as an adult human male and male is defined as a male person plant or animal yeah you're yeah you're saying it's the definition because it's the definition it's a circular argument it's a tautola yeah tautology the only way that i okay go ahead i will let everybody answer and then uh yeah i i just think it's a i don't think it's as simple as just being like hey it's xx or x y um like whatever that your sex chromosome set is but i think it also incorporates whatever your your sexual what your role in the sexual relationship is between uh the two parties and um i just don't think that having the ability to gen like to physically change your body makes you biologically different so something i really want to hammer here is that identity doesn't come from like things below the neck like it doesn't come from your genitalia it doesn't come from your arms or your legs your knees we have to separate those two yeah identity is rooted in your brain and so when you were saying earlier like it's biological genes are biological genetics are biological and according to a paper published in behavior genetics titled the biological contributions to gender identity and gender diversity bringing data to the table they conclude that gender identity is a multifactorial complex trait with heritable polygenetic components basically your gender identity is rooted in your genetics so when you're saying i am a man that is partly rooted in your genetics whether your cis non non non whether you're a cis man or a trans man that statement is rooted in your genetics and how your uh self-actualization influence is influenced by and interpreted in your culture good mouthy a chance to answer and then we'll go to the next one yeah i mean again like i know i sound like a broken record but the idea that like the definition of a man is going to be determined by like your biology when that's clearly not how we use the word in any cases that just doesn't seem like that's a good definition next up thanks for your question aerial fernandez who says which which which is the flag of the free oh washington's flag with the stripes and the stars will you give such name to the thing with the bars appreciate that you can tell we'll read anything here okay next up accolese thanks for your question said language is a human construct the definitions of words change constantly to hold to one definition is futile if a definition isn't good it won't catch on yeah exactly what do you mean what do you mean um what's the definition exactly because apparently i've just decided all of a sudden the definition of the word definition doesn't actually mean well no you can't as a person but like broadly society defines words okay well society words man and woman to mean wait okay no no but they don't though because when do you know in any social no in any the dictionary tries to track how society uses words it doesn't dictate how society ought to use words dictionary hold on hold on dictionary definitions can be wrong because the definition of a word is defined by how people use it because words are just things we use to communicate certain concepts to each other so the word man and by how people use it talking about the dictionary so if the dictionary says that a word means one thing and uh uh that's not how people use it the dictionary definition can be wrong let me uh give the last word to cj and we got to move to the next one like that absolutely is the way that people use it and in fact you even just said yourself in in what you were just saying there in your answer you said yourself that what the dictionary is trying to do is show how people commonly use that word well people commonly use the word man to refer to the biological male they don't and that is they literally do i've never heard anybody and you see my chromosome must move to the next one very quickly okay sorry aerial well we got that one we got general ball sack thanks for your comment who said great debate all around so glad you enjoyed it i enjoyed it as well it's been very fun tell us an overlander thanks for your question who said what is a man a miserable pile of secrets i don't know what that's from at all it's a castle man yeah it's a video night right life and life and life obviously is it a movie that's a it's a ps1 game i think i think right am i getting that right chat i can't remember next it was it was one of those older systems thank you for your question or let's see insult nala dower for cj who says the pure quote unquote definition cj sounds like a cultist i'm like cj sorry buddy you've been accused of everything right now a cultist are you a cultist cj a cultist well to be fair if you want to get technical with the definition of the word cultist i am a christian and any religion could be defined as a cult so yeah but no let's talk definition yeah let's talk definitions thank you and brutus logo thanks for your question said mouthy and jangle how do you distinguish between man and woman and how do you define the two i distinguish between men and women based on my cultural understanding of what men and women means in my culture that's all uh and uh when in doubts i go by self-identification so if i see someone who i can't really tell i'll either try to you know guess by the way they like uh like interact with me and or i might even just try to ask my definition of i'm sorry but does the it doesn't you know it go ahead it's it's going to take too long we're going to take too long and i don't know what i want to go down if you'd like to hear my definition of woman or man or non-binary person a woman man or non-binary person is one whose first person authority over their own mental attitudes most closely aligns with their respective interpretations of generic categorizations in their culture i know that's really wordy i'm not very kithy and and like is not the kithy three word definition but it's one that i think is more representative yeah what about the consistencies though uh just out of curiosity is are we just supposed to overlook the things that every not every man but every man that has x at our x y this is what fully encapsulate them as well like i said everybody has a gender identity and the and the cis men or identify as men like myself uh we would fit this definition pretty well next want to say thanks so much everybody is a pleasure to be here with you all also want to say thanks so much to the mods always is just you guys help make it possible keeping order and i appreciate your those high standards that we we ask of you mods in terms of i know that sometimes people make fun of you that whatever it is like you know not as bad as cj but i mean and you have stuck to your values of we only we only have one rule which is that we only ban with no warning hate speech obviously that's gone and then if somebody's harassing somebody like cj we will usually give them a warning tonight we just let them run amok but thank you for everybody just hanging out with us we usually do ask you to not harass people though and we'll at least give you a warning for that but want to say all of the speakers if you've enjoyed this folks as much as i have all of their links are waiting down in the description so you can hear plenty more where that came from and so last of all most sorry about that tap in the uh the old mic want to say thanks so much to our speakers this channel the reason that's fun is because of the speakers so we want to say thanks so much mouthy jangles cj and richard really appreciate you guys coming on and i it's been a true pleasure so well thank you so much for having us i had a lot of fun i hope everyone will sit too absolutely and then we just had ariel finanda's fire in a last minute super chat saying i'm going to play the song libre when biden wins i don't understand is that a new song dang it you can always take advantage of the fact that i know what is it called i'm a boomer okay next up more yet morgan thanks for your question last question came in said cj how can a quote spirit or quote god identify as a man i mean i'm not really relevant to what we're talking about but it's an interesting question i'll be honest with you um i would affirm to you that uh the god of the bible is absolutely masculine because he is revealed himself is so and what that means i have literally not the slightest clip so do with that information gotcha and then thanks so much everybody want to just be sure in case there were any last minute super chats i don't want to just kind of ignore you okay got everything so thanks so much folks hope you have a great rest of your night we'll see you tomorrow as dr richard carrier and jonathan sheffield cross swords and whether or not the resurrection occurred so thanks so much and have a great rest of your thursday or friday