Welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Dan Garza again for part two of our piste history episode. Welcome back Dan. Thanks. That's great I can't believe it's we're doing this again. I know this is honestly It's very it's different than most other episodes because usually it's you know One and done, but I think piste special and I'm really really glad it's pretty cool to like To do this where we've had a week today is Saturday November 20th So this is only a couple days before we will release this But to see people's reaction and I have gotten a lot of messages A lot of cool stuff from people just saying how much they've enjoyed it because let's be honest. That was a long It was a long episode. Oh, yeah So yeah, people are really interested in piste and they as they should be It's neat to get this information out there Thanks to like Fritz and this long list of people who maybe will you know shout out at the end? But I think it's cool to finally put it all together. How are you feeling after part one is out in the world? Are you happy? Oh, yeah, it's you know, there's just so much information and listening to it. It was like Man, I'm going on forever I've gotten feedback. I've been working with Fritz over the last week We've been focusing on on mostly Trying to find something about pre-war piste. Yeah some actual documentation or proof, you know but yeah I've had a few people contact me and and offer some information which is really interesting just little tidbits here and there But yeah, definitely helps with with the whole timeline Sure And you know, maybe it's worth saying this to that like if you're listening to this right now and you didn't listen to part one You just just know that like that. All right, so the first one was basically about the origins of the family Up through, you know, the different factories and the moving around Europe and the being refugees and the Ludwig Connection which on that note. I want to give a big shout out real quick though to Jim Catalano who on Facebook has been posting some really cool pictures of Bill Ludwig with the piste family going back when it was You know, they were they were traveling together and really neat stuff So thank you to Jim Catalano for his continued support who's he was a longtime Ludwig employee and he's got a really cool episode on his With with him on the show. So yeah, all right. So Dan, why don't we start off? I know the benefit of having this part two is that we've gotten a couple corrections one of them is from Norbert from Minol and couple, you know different things where He loved the episode, but there was some stuff where he said hey, this isn't a hundred percent right Here's the correct information and I know you've got some other ones So do you want to start with the the housekeeping section and we can clean things up a little bit? That maybe got you know, again, we have the benefit to do it now. So I'll let you take that away So I you know, I keep you know this is obviously a living breathing thing as far as trying to learn about the history of pasty and You know, I have several sources and it's really difficult a for to find anything pre-war pre-World War two and Honestly, there isn't anything that I could find. Yeah, what I did realize I made a major error in that pasty was working with nickel silver way back in Easily the 30s if not the 20s and the proof is that their gongs were made from nickel silver And it can't be Understated, you know, how important pasties gongs were to their business and their success But my understanding is the stambles were always nickel silver I don't have an official start date and honestly, I don't think anybody really knows When Pisces started to make the Stambles series, you know, the timeline that I have since 1932, but Because there's no documentation. There's no way to prove that a hundred percent the other thing I found too of searching pre-war catalogs all these different drum manufacturers as I found zilgin Zilco's pre-war and I thought oh man, they had a second line and then I found out that wasn't a second line Those were a zilgin seconds or rejects that they just labeled zilco and sold as a lower price symbol Yeah Yeah, which is which is sort of a gray area too because it's like what's the definition of like a second line because that's yeah You know, but I think that's good to clarify that that instead of it being a this is a second Separate line that is created from scratch for this purpose Not just oh that one didn't quite make the grade or it's not the right whatever So here now it goes over here. It wasn't specifically created. Yeah. Alright, so then shall we discuss? Norbert and the minor Difference there. Yes. So Basically, my understanding is that the Profound record series Were not the first b8 symbols that model produced. They actually would produce it b8 in the 70s Which I believe was the king beat series and they also released another model called the laser So, you know, I was definitely in error as far as binos history. So I apologize for that Oh, that's all right. And again, Norbert was super nice and was like, hey Bart Hope you're gonna have a good time at pace it coming up, which was fun That's so my my my basic recap was it was awesome and it was a great time. It was good to see everyone there but Which I mentioned in the last episode, but yeah, then he was just you know, here's a little bit of information No big issue just wanted to give you some facts and again, super nice So now I think we're good to just jump in and pick up the timeline, right? Yeah, I was thinking if it's okay that we could do a real quick lightning round. I love it of Factoids and and this would this would a lot of this is information I've picked up on the last week that doesn't really fit or was in the old part of the timeline. So sure I Could go ahead and start with Looking more into the relationship between Ludwig and Piste what I found is that traditionally in Europe there is a city called and I'm gonna try to pronounce this here it's called Mark Neukerschen in southeastern Germany right on the Czech border and that was the center of Production for musical instruments for centuries and they would have a huge music fair every year This goes back well and well into the 1800s It was basically the European Nam the night 18th and 19th century Nam for Europe and All the major manufacturers went there including the Zilchins now this would be the the the family that produced K. Zilchins pre-war and Father Piste, Mikhail would definitely have gone there to sell his gongs and there isn't concrete proof, but you know Speaking with this is something that Fritz brought up. We're pretty certain that Both Ludwig senior and Mikhail would have been there. They would have met They would have at least, you know exchange business cards, but they knew each other and the reason why this is important is because in the previous podcast I mentioned that Robert Robert Piste had mentioned in his interview that the Ludwig family had set them care packages right after World War two So they knew who the Piste family was and the only way that would have been possible is if they would have done business or known them before the war So that kind of wraps up that little sure tidbit. Yeah, good info another interesting factoid from the early 50s and this was actually in Robert's interview was that Father Piste Mikhail had received a call from the salesman. This is probably right around Early 50s when they started using their hammering machine and He received the call from a salesman trying to sell them basically an automated machine that would produce the symbol and I guess one fell swoop but probably would stamp it and then had another function for hammering and The salesman was trying to sell it to to Mikhail and he replied a machine for making symbols You can forget that we don't make pots and pans. We make symbols and With ironic is the salesman that was trying to sell this the the machine to Father Piste was Roland Mino. Oh, wow Founder of mine. Oh, yeah, that's awesome. Cool Okay, another tidbit The Piste drama service which I mentioned briefly At last podcast With Robert was headed up by Pierre Fave, I believe is a correct pronunciation of his last name and He was the driving force for decades behind that I believe it was Robert's idea and he basically started up here was the one who Headed that that project here also was the lead symbol tester from what I was told for decades He was the main symbol tester is also pictures of them in the old Ludwig Documentation of when Ludwig went to visit Piste and pick out symbols Pierre was there working with Robert Yeager Pulling the symbols out and explaining them to him. So he was like the number one like technical advisor for Piste Wow, the the other person who who needs to be mentioned as Freddie Studer and my understanding is that Freddie and Pierre were key people as far as the The development of new symbols my understanding and this is new information I got is that Pierre was responsible for cup chimes the bell Extra heavy bell symbols and it goes on and on and on but those people are obviously key to to Piste's creative creative this yeah another thing real quick is Swiss metal as we spoke in the last podcast was originally called their their name was metal vrk Dornach AG and AG is the same thing as Incorporated that was Swiss metals original name before they became Swiss metal who produced I believe B8 and B20 for Pisces up until 94 Um Wylan works violin verks took over the BA production and I found out through Fritz from a firsthand account Fritz was in it that Sabian plant in Canada Wylan work supplies B8 to Zildjian and Sabian for all their B8 symbols Interesting yeah Wow, man, you've done more and more homework Okay, but I've got one more this is a this is an industry one so Fritz is a friend who is a huge bottom fan and This to this German gentleman Fritz told me was constantly badger and Eric Piste about finding Bonham's endorsement agreement and he badgered them for God knows public years Eric finally Gave in and went in and one of the archives and found Bonham's endorsement agreement the contract and Basically the inventory list of what symbols that they gave Bonham when you go to Pisces site and you see the picture of the endorsement and that inventory list the reason why they they basically Not that they don't have it but the reason why they can actually produce it is because this German Bonham fan Pestered Eric's, you know incessantly until he actually went and found it man. That is awesome That's such history that document The the other thing that this I don't know the gentleman's name Fritz does obviously He also Pestered Pisces this would have been around early 2000s he pestered Pisces to Do a special order and to make him a set of giant beat symbols, which they were producing at the time so Pisces went ahead and did that and One of the things I understood with Pisces that if you do a special order you have to order two of everything so there is two complete sets and Right after they produce a symbol Steve Jordan who is famous because he used to be the drummer for David Letterman Yeah, he's been a Pisces player for decades He was in Notwell and he saw the giant beats that had just been produced and he went over and he was talking One of the Pisces guys says well, what is this? Let me play with these so he really liked them He said well, I want to set to they're like, okay So they made him a custom order set he takes them back to LA and then a bunch of his buddies see him They're like what we want them to so they started doing all these custom orders for giant beats That's how giant beats the main reason why the reissue was the demand Wow It was an originally started by this German big German Bonham fan That guy we owe a lot of you know, I mean that's that's it's really cool though that something could be so You know loved long ago and then brought back because some one one person maybe there was a couple people involved Let's just benefit of the doubt But like one person was so passionate that it actually they listened so Piste actually listened and and did it Yeah, awesome. Well, and and I have to say that I just saw Steve Jordan playing with the Rolling Stones in Detroit last in between our two episodes and It was awesome, but for the sake of time. I'll talk about that Another time but um, all right, so now let's hop in here We're I promised everyone this episode is going to be shorter than an hour and a half like the last one So let's do our best here to keep it. You know, we got another 40 or 50 minutes so let's jump in here Dan and pick it up where we left off which was in the 1970s and we kind of touched on getting into the 2002 series, which is very iconic with rock So let's let's pick it up here and carry on the the Piste timeline. You got it. So The period of 70 71 a lot of stuff happened obviously with the release of 2002s The other thing that happened, which is really important is what I call the great B8 shift of 1971 And that was Piste dropped nickel silver from all their lower lines and all their lower lines was switched over to be produced From B8 and that includes the stamp bull the Dixie the super the Ludwigs standard the stenople and You can actually find these symbols on German eBay. They they're still around and they're interesting.  I think they're more desirable. Yeah and this in I'm kind of inferring or or making assumption that Piste did this a lot of ways for economic reasons Because the fact that they were getting they were starting the production of 2002 and they would only need two alloys now instead of three They would just be 20 and B8 Which probably made production a little simpler. Yeah cleaner Robert knew that they needed a symbol to compete with the amplified music of the time Which was getting louder and louder when we get into the 70 71 so that became the 2002 and It's safe to say that Really the sound of 70s rock virtually every English rock band Their drummer use Pisces symbols I mean you could probably would be easier to name the drummers that didn't use 2002s throughout the 70s if they're a band Seriously, or a European band for that matter, which in in you know, you kind of look back I was obviously I mean I was not born yet But I you like you listen to the radio you listen to this this amazing music and it's like a lot of these bands were European British bands at the time that we all love now But I mean I'm looking on the symbol dot wiki piste, you know section though and it's bonum Alex van Halen who's America not born in America, but American by band Cozy pal Karl Palmer Ian Pace Carmina piece Let's see Ainsley Dunbar Keith Moon, right? Yeah Steve Smith Andy Parker of UFO Graham Lear of Santana Barrymore Barlow with Jethro Tall. I mean it just goes Charlie Watts It's just insane Phil Rudd Roger Taylor. I mean these are the biggest names this and Nick Mason obviously this had to be just like Pretty amazing for the piste family because I remember when we went on part one We were referring to a section of their history where They were kind of down Financially and they had to be making the like chains for snow tires and all that stuff But I mean this explosion had to be good for business obviously Yeah, and yeah, and they were they were it's funny because yeah They didn't have much of a presence in the US during this period of time It really isn't until 1975 when Rogers took over distribution that I don't I Don't I don't know who distributed symbols in the US from 70 71 up until 75 if anybody but in Europe it wasn't a problem, you know, obviously and You know, this is the music I grew up on and and You know when you listen back to all these bands to realize it's Virtually and most of them are Ludwig and feisty, you know, they kind of go hand in hand. Yeah Yeah, which you know, I Always thought as a kid for some odd reason like Bonham played before I really look I mean, I'm talking like when I was like 10 I always thought Bonham played zilgen for some odd reason You almost think sometimes like you maybe you think everyone plays Ludwig because that's what the big name You know, every parent knows and talks to you about but but no, it's it's amazing how popular price D was so And just to reiterate though, obviously, these are b8 symbols two thousand twos way if you could put in a couple words be like People loved these because of how clear and bright they were is that fair to say getting over the music? It cuts through it's this new kind of rock music. Is that basically the gist of it? Yeah, be a especially the way they developed the two thousand twos, you know, I've mentioned in the last podcast I think about In the old days pennies were made out of copper Yep, and if you take a copper penny and throw it against a hard surface like a concrete floor You hear this really characteristic high-frequency ring and that's that ring. I also in the old days when you had Telephones they actually had telephone bells and when the you know people have on their cell phones the ring tone of an old-fashioned telephone sure That telephone bell ring also reminded me of that high-frequency ring that two thousand twos in particular have Hmm, and you could hear it and that really cuts through and there's this sweetness to the characteristics that you could hear You know that cuts through all the guitars and vocals and keyboards and God knows what that Comes out up top that really sounds really sweet. Yeah, that's a great way to put it if I could back up a little bit This is just little sure little tidbits of information one thing. That's important. That's that's really contested is Pisces serial numbers Okay, and this is this is something I see constantly and I've actually spent a lot of time trying to understand and gather data Pisces did not apply serial numbers to their symbols until 1972 People constantly saying well, they did in 1970 because the serial numbers got a zero on it now. That's a night. That's a 1980 serial number There was also transition period in 71 The very early 2002s didn't have serial numbers and they also didn't have the 2002 name on them It just had Pisces stamped on them and that's listed on the wiki and 602s had the same thing where they just had the name Pisces and it didn't say formula 602 above it That's what you call it the transition labels with the transition symbols But it's important to understand because you know Pisces started applying serial numbers in 72 and they were the only ones. I mean I I have I Don't have the data, but my understanding is Zilden didn't start doing serial numbers until the mid 90s If now wow, so the nice thing is is that you can actually date the top line Pisces mainly 602s in 2002 The lower lines it looks like more mid 70s when they started to apply serial numbers. It was hit and miss Yeah, that's good to know now in this modern time of like I Don't know right like, you know hindsight is 2020 It's like yeah, of course you have to have a serial number because these things are gonna go out there They're gonna be valuable and people will want them but it's it's that's good to know for for dating purposes There's other things happening too. I mean if we stick with the timeline 71 ish was The creation of the dark ride with it with the cooperation of John Heisman and Jack D. Jeanette This is interesting in that they in a lot of ways were trying to reproduce the old k sound So you've got a symbol that's heavily hammered and much darker sounding than The standard 602s because this was based on a 602 symbol. Yeah This is considered from my understanding the most valuable Pisces ever made Especially the dark ride version Not to get too far ahead of ourselves, but this ended up developing a whole series called the sound creation series which in 1978 which is basically You know pisces version of Would be their their k zildjans in a lot of ways most of the symbols were heavily hammered and much darker sounding And you know, it should be noted that this was done in 78 and released in 78 before zildjans officially revamped or restarted their k zildjans line in 1982. Hmm. Well even more uh, who did it first kind of uh Yeah, so pisces was definitely ahead of the curve on that. Yeah Yeah Cool. All right. So chugging along then um, what else in the early 70s? Well, at some point, I think we're gonna have to talk about Bonham. Yeah. Yeah for sure. So let's keep it We could spend an episode on Bonham. So let's let's touch on Bonham a little bit I mean, that's just obviously one of the most influential drummers In the world. I mean of all time to this day. So so the fact that he played Pisces Boy that that had to be that's their ringo. You know Yeah, yeah, I Again, I've had people recently in the last few weeks send me information, which has been really helpful There is a section on the wiki page under the giant beat symbols of the very bottom that has the whole section with Bonham's endorsement agreement in his inventory list that kind of lays out You know what he played and when he played it and a lot of this is with the help of a gentleman by the name of george flutus Who is on youtube was a fantastic drummer and he's done all this research He plays virtually every zeppelin song and he plays them very very well But he's pointed out with pictures from particular eras what bonham was playing and it's very interesting In a nutshell Bonham actually played giant beats on more albums than he did 2002 Interesting with which I found very interesting. I mean growing up I always thought it was just 2002 2002 2002 And it turns out that he played giant beats all the way up through houses of the holy And uh, he was using from the 602 hi hats on all those early albums um Let's simple one is really kind of anybody's guess because there just isn't any information as far as any Real picture evidence around that time. It's hard to tell But most people agree that it's a mixture of 602 giant beats and zilchins um We also think that there was an influence from Ludwig because he got his uh, his clear maple set or uh A thermo gloss I think is referred to it um in Early 69 I believe with the help of carmine, of course Yep Yeah, and it's believed that most likely Ludwig gave him a set of 602s at that time to go along with the set Because at that point they would have had them Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they were selling and distributed them. Yeah, um, but there's also there's also proof and There's actually an interview with freddie studer who mentions that Bonham had come to the factory in very early 1970, which is it was on his inventory list Where you see he picked up a full set of giant beats Um, there's also an interview I read with cozy pal where he mentioned that both him and bonham were biteys in the late 60s And they were on the same club circuit together playing in different bands and They both found giant beats in the late 60s were playing them and the interesting thing they said is that they had albums with cracking their zilchins So when they started using giant beats, they found that they didn't have that that issue as much or at all And that was one of the big advantages. Hmm. Yeah, because these are heavy hitting. I mean, it's a new world Music, you know My understanding also is that um bonham was disappointed when they discontinued giant beats in 72 slash early 73 And he continued to play them and he could he especially liked his ride and he continued to use that ride Through physical graffiti. So when you listen to the actual tracks recorded for that album He's using 2002's But he's still using this giant beat ride and he toured with it So when you look at the 75 tour the physical graffiti tour, he's still using his giant beat ride And it's not until presence that is using all 2002's Wow That's awesome And a 602 medium ride thrown in here or there And just such a cool I don't know something about that that sound of zeppelin is is peisty, you know, yeah As far as the drums go that's that's so cool to know. Um All right, and then like I said there there will be at some point I don't know when but there will be a full bonham episode without a doubt.  I mean, I guess I guess also we kind of like Make him a legend more and more after the fact, you know, because he's been gone for so long But did they realize at peisty? Do you think at that time that like this guy is a big deal and we need to take care of him? Was he kind of the big dog on the endorser list? I think a lot of it had to do with the band Of course The one thing obviously that younger listeners Can't really relate to it was that I mean really I wasn't until the 90s that you didn't have access to these bands and Really the only way and this is my experience as a kid was The only way that You would hear these bands on the radio and you would have to wait till the song was over Then a dj went out to it was and like what the name of the song was and if you're lucky what album it was on And I would have to go to the record store to find the album if I wanted to listen to that song and buy the album Obviously, yeah, but the other thing is I would go to the supermarket and look for either cream or circus magazines because That was the only way that you'd be able to actually see the band see what they look like And as All drummers know it's like what was the guy playing? I mean that's you know all the your your idols What was he playing so I would page through the new issue of cream or circus looking for zeppelin pictures of there's a zeppelin article And it's like, you know, where's the pictures of bonham? It's like I don't care about plant or page I want to see the bottom pictures and usually you would see part of a set From a shot taken of robber plant, you know standing in front of a set. It's like get out of the way I want to see bonham set, you know Yeah, totally so So, yeah, I mean it was it was zeppelin had this aura about them. Um, I've read a couple different biographies They were very groundbreaking In that um, they changed the way business was done in the industry, especially uh with performing live Um, but more importantly, they didn't do interviews. They didn't release singles. There was only was that the only ever uh released one single But the main thing was that they had really bad, um reception from the press very early on rolling stone and They decided that they weren't going to cater to the media So they were non-existent. So they became this very mythical band and I think that really drove their The aura about them and their popularity the fact that they were so inaccessible. Yeah And they drove a lot of their popularity the fact that they that you just You didn't know anything about them and there were there were never no interviews You know, all you saw were pictures of magazines. So for young fans, you know, they had a rabid following. So i'm sure Piste it's some former manor knew about that. Obviously they were very popular in europe, you know Yeah So yeah Yeah, it obviously they had they had a lot of other top endorses, but As far as volume the amount of albums sold or the amount of tickets sold for concerts You know zeppelin was number one. Yeah for sure, which is important Especially in the u.s. Yeah, absolutely, which perfect segue getting back to the u.s distribution Let's talk about rogers and uh, which who was owned by cbs And it's interesting kind of reading on the wiki here talking about how part of the deal was piste would Distribute rogers drums in switzerland. So there was a bit of a Back and forth because these are such distant places where they needed help obviously to Have feet on the ground in those places. So it makes sense. Let's let's talk about the um distribution here a little bit How did that all go? Well, I I could tell you really from a personal perspective because this is when I started playing You know, I started playing the drums in 78 and I got my first piste in 79. I got a 404 six inch crash and My experience and also from looking at catalogs or whatnot. Um rogers first listed 2002s in their 76 catalog So initially they only offered 2002s um As you get later into the 70s, um, you'll see that they do offer sound creations And by 78 which is when uh, the dixie and the stem bull are discontinued. They basically morphed into the 505 and the 404 Um rogers did offer the 404 and that's where I came in But what was very interesting is once I started to work on the wiki and started to contact people in europe and make friends and this and that I found that there was all these symbols that were available in europe that we never got You know, I mean we never we never got stem bulls or dixies here in the us Let alone I mean what we got was through Ludwig, which would have been the standard or they also produced an even less expensive line called the stan opal in the late 60s early 70s But that was it now rogers for whatever reason didn't distribute 602s in the us On one of their price lists from 1980 they list The 602s is a special order and it takes a hundred day turnaround to basically deliver the symbol um So the the selection was limited even the sizes available of 2002s were limited in the us compared to what they had in europe so rogers still did very well as far as the volume of of the amount of symbols they sold obviously Yeah, yeah, I I I don't really know why they stopped I would assume it was because picey came to the realization of well, geez, you know, if we're doing this well in the us We might as well set up a distribution center and do it ourselves, which would make a lot of sense Which is yeah, what they what they did in 1981 Yeah, which there's something You know, it's sort of going down the same path Obviously, it didn't end the same way but with Ludwig about kind of latching on a little bit to a successful drum company to get you know reach A wider audience and have the distribution and stuff But but yeah, I guess at that point with their there it was different than the earlier Ludwig distribution obviously because they were Bigger and more well known with these bayons So they probably did feel more confident to take that step out on their own To you know, we can do this on our own And I think by the late 70s picey was doing Pretty well with the 2002s. Um this is I don't have the source. I honestly can't remember where this where the statement came from But I did read a statement a long time ago that Uh rogers or cbs actually did more volume With pices than I did with rogers drums. In other words, they sold more and in dollar Wise more made more money off the the 2002s or gross dollars than they did off of the actual rogers drums Wow, which is pretty crazy. Yeah, but I mean I kind of get it That's a case in some in some like I remember I I used to work at guitar center in the drum department And it was like, yeah, you sell more sticks than you do Tama bubinga drum sets Like people are going to buy more cymbals than they are going to buy a full drum set. So But I'm sure rogers was kind of like geez. Why are we so you know, we This is it's just an interesting dichotomy I guess you could say Here's another thing to keep in mind too is number one All there was was zilgin and pasty in the u.s. Yeah Um, I do know I have a catalog a gretch catalog from 1980 Where they actually distribute u-fips And you see these little when I was growing up You would have these kind of funky off-brand symbols I mean one of the things that floated around Is the kids in my neighborhood where I remember one kid had a candor symbol Another kid had a corret symbol, but as far as entry-level symbols go they were kind of the one They weren't very good. Yeah, and You know, I think one of One of the major advantage pasty had was even it was it was only the 404 They were selling probably a lot of 404s in the u.s. Because you know zilgin didn't have a second line of symbols You know, they all they had were a zilgin's all through the 70s. Yeah and the 60s You know, I mean, I know that there was the asco plant and they did start to produce k I think it's 78. But my understanding is The the companies really weren't connected. I mean zilgin didn't offer k's in their catalog until around 82. No, and I think part of the split You know, again, sorry if i'm wrong. There's a lot of history Uh part of the split between robert and armand was I believe one of them wanted to have a second less expensive line And the other one didn't and I can't remember if exactly I think it was zilgin I think robert didn't want to have a cheaper line and and armand wanted to start to Lower and get into that later in the 80s. Obviously it was when that would be This episode is brought to you by dream symbols dream symbols is continuing the tasting tour 2021 with a couple new dates I wanted to let you guys know about saturday november 27th They'll be at portman's music superstore in savannah georgia If you haven't heard they're gonna have a lot of cool symbols in store They're gonna have a member of the dream team on site and they'll be doing the recycling program. Go check it out All right, so you mentioned this earlier. They were gonna have their own distribution center And I just want to like let's do a little check-in on europe So we still have the german factory and we still have the swiss factory, correct That's correct. German factory is pretty seeing all the all the b8 lines Including 2002s, but it's the domestic market. It's germany And most likely central europe only During that period, you'll you'll never see any 70s german pasties in the u.s You know, it was only switzerland switzerland was the only one that Exported their symbols to the u.s or north america through that period now. I believe in the 80s I think we did start to get some german lower line pasty symbols Uh, I would have to find actual find proof of it, which would be difficult But I believe that is the case. Yeah But in the 70s no and and what's interesting is that There's one gentleman that I that I Actually contacted me and he has this enormous collection. He's got all these 505s Stambulis and he has all these 505s from the late 70s and i'm like I can't believe I didn't know they made all this, you know, they they made a marching china type Wow, you know and it's I'm looking at this. This is so cool. It's like we never got this We didn't get any marching symbols. We didn't get any hand symbols There's a little excerpt the bottom of the priceless saying hand symbols available on request Which basically means special order. Yeah, but they don't tell you what's available You know, I didn't know that you could get 602 concert sound edges Yeah, that's interesting It's almost it kind of makes me think of like when you see like car companies who make cars in europe that As here in america, we've never even heard of or seen or in like in asia where it's like ford or something They make these things that literally will never see or drive ever Um, and it's it's super similar to that. Um, so all right while we're kind of like While we're over in europe checking in so we still robert tumis everyone they're they're still running the show The family is still very much in charge, right? No one has been sold to another company or anything It's still a family operation. No, but also one more thing about the german factory by understanding was that You know father pasty passed away in 63 And and mother pasty, which would be robert and tumis's mother took over in some former manner of Running the factory in germany and and i'm sure she in some ways at some point became more of a figurehead But she lived in that little house next door to the factory until she passed away Wow, so I thought that was very interesting. It's you know all in the family Yeah, that's exactly right. My understanding is uh when eric visits a german factory. That's where he stays Oh, cool. And it's in his in grandmother's house. Wow That's cool All right, then let's pick up back there in kind of go from the 70s into the 80s And if we're correct me if i'm missing anything, but let's maybe jump. Um, let's hear about the distribution center Or if there's any other lines along the way there Well, I already kind of mentioned it, but the sound creation series was released in 78. Yeah, and It's kind of a mysterious series. It was it was very expensive But I own several sound creation symbols and I have to tell you that I absolutely love the sound creation series And there's a lot of like really hardcore sound creation fans that that Want Pisces to bring them back but honestly The 602 modern essentials series is really kind of the grandson of sound creation a lot of ways. That was the same General intent was to make a more exotic darker You know deeper sounding type of symbol and again, they're basic, you know, they're basically 602s that have been heavily hammered Yeah, and and you know and and the sound changed quite a bit, but I I still love the sound creation series and Um, there's quite a few of them still around and the dark ride continued all the way through the 70s and 80s with the sound creation series and The sound creation series and the 602s were discontinued in 94 Because uh swiss metal ran into financial difficulties and they stopped producing b20 So for people out there wondering why they stopped producing these symbols.  It's it's the symbol companies rely so much on the you know metal manufacturers that that controls a lot There's a lot of forces at play that can can affect You know the creation of a line or a symbol. It's like well, we can't do it anymore. We lost our Distributor so that's that's just an interesting side note Brea distribution center. So Brea is pretty much due east a little southeast of downtown Los Angeles So I was really happy that they Decided to to uh, establish the distribution center here because it was close to me Yeah, for sure. What I what I can tell you from a personal perspective was I I grew up here I moved back east for three years from 79 to 82 and then I was back here in the summer of 82 so Brea had really just got up and running by then and I was buying my pasties back east and I had bought A 404 then I moved to the 2002s And it was very difficult. I had to drive into boston Well, I had to get my dad or my parents to to drive into boston in order to go to a music store to buy them And the selection was pretty thin, you know um But I Very strongly remember when we moved out here in the summer of 82 The first thing I did was hit the music stores. And of course there was Guitar Center Which was the old school Guitar Center I mean it was ground zero for Pisces and I can remember walking into the old Guitar Center before they moved it in Hollywood and the drum section The center of the drum section was this huge Pisces display and they had a percussion set if if the listeners know what that is and they had racks and racks of 2002s And and and this is when they did the the color label shift Yeah In 81 so no more black labels are all colored labels They had green label 505s. They had brown label 404s They had a ton of 2002s and oh my god a 602. I saw my first 602 for the first time You know and I think they even had sound creations And I knew what everything was because I had the catalogs, but I had never seen this stuff in person um, this also coincides with what I like to call the uh, the beginning of the hair metal phase In LA and so the sunset strip and that was ground zero for all those hair metal bands like rat and And quiet riot and motley crew and poison all those bands all originated out of that area And the majority of those guys all played Pisces. They all played 2002s And I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that Pisces had such a strong presence now In the us and especially in LA And now all of a sudden you've got MTV within about a year or less of Pisces Established a distribution center. So now all of a sudden you've got these drummers, you know, I Vividly remember that rat video constantly playing on MTV and you could actually you can clearly see the drummers playing 2002s You could see the the red label pisces underneath the symbols So, you know, they got free advertising, you know, they got huge exposure in the us because of that so totally again This is this is my this is my impression. I really think that They they really blew up and in the us and the us is such a gigantic market totally Another thing that's really really important If we back up just a year was Pisces released the rude series in 1980 And that was, you know, they're unlaid symbols and again That was Pisces In, you know being innovative and producing these symbols for metal punk rock Really really loud music. Sure And probably one of the the main endorses that everybody knows about is steward copeland And he started using rudes on ghost of the machine And you could hear them. He's actually mixing 602s and rudes, which is pretty crazy, but it works and that also Was the incentive for the colored label era Because piscy had printed the big white rude label on the symbol And that basically started the whole era of now they're gonna actually print big Logos on the symbols in color, which are easy to see and it's free advertising Yeah, and oh my god. I mean that the colored look I mean, I consider myself a bit of like an outsider Again, you are like the piscy expert, but I just have to say that the colored logos Even getting further down a little bit the the actual literally colored symbols, which I'm sure we'll talk about But those colors, I just think of that red 2002 and I used to have a 2002 crash Man, it just pops. It is such a unique and that green on the 505 It's so just it draws your eye to it. And it's like this is different and and it makes sense that it's because You know, there's there's music videos. There's all the stuff. They know advertising and that's that's really effective And another interesting note is zilgins didn't start to label their symbols or put their logo Which they called the hollow logo on the bottom of the symbols until I believe 1978 Which piscy started in 72 Gotcha And I believe I think in 81 ish or 82 is when when zilgen went to the solid black logo on the bottom of the symbols but My again, this is my interpretation that I believe piscy led the way again with this And and they continued innovating. I mean, it was you know, the percussion set was was absolutely I remember seeing it and It had the most odd things in it, you know The roto sound and cup chimes and these little tiny gongs a sound plate this big rectangular piece of bronze um You know the bell symbol Obviously the flat ride. I mean it goes on and on and on but The probably one of the biggest things that really defines the 80s is the color sound symbols Yeah, for sure. God that sticks out even today. You see Yeah, a lot of red. I always I always typically see drummers with like red drums red heads red symbols It's like It's super cool looking. I mean, I've never actually played them. Um How do you think they they they stand up? Quality-wise because you someone might look at it and go like, oh, that's a gimmick the symbol can't be that great You know, how do you like them? Well, my understanding is that there were 2002s and you you could tell from the lading because 2002s have a very distinct type of lading where it's not it's It's asymmetrical it gets tight and then it widens out and then it gets tight again and it widens out It's kind of like the the grooves of a record. We and you have these kind of White areas between songs if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah My understanding is is what Pisces did was they had to produce an an extra bright version Of the 2002s and then they coated it with a lacquer For the color and that tended to dampen the symbol and dull it down. So they they They pre-emphasized The brightness to counteract the fact that it was going to be muted and and and dollar sounding And it was the era of MTV and you see all these new wave bands, especially from England these guys are playing color sounds and it just I mean it falls right in with the whole visual aspect of the big eighties with the hair and the big clothes and the makeup and You know, everything was bright and shiny and new and neon and technology and You know, it's just it's another innovation.  I just I remember Every week a new video would come out from from some new band and hey, the guy's playing color sounds, you know Yeah, totally Did they did the color with the lacquer was the technology figured out right away? You know, I mean, did they have it buttoned up or did they start to like chip off or were they pretty, you know It's durable As far as I know, I mean if if you clean the symbol if you use an abrasive cleaner The the lacquer will come off. You'll see it It'll start to work just like the labels themselves the colored labels If you use an abrasive cleaner What will happen is the high spots will wear out first Which is areas that are between the laving grooves that stick that stand proud or stick up higher on the symbol Those will be worn out first So you'll see that an old color sounds you have to be really careful not Not use a really abrasive cleaner. The other thing about the color sounds is again I a little quip that I saw was supposedly Nick Mason and asked Pisces to produce all white symbols for him Cool For the wall tour in 1980. Wow. Now. I've never seen any pictures of that. I've been playing white symbols But supposedly that may have been the spark at the beginning of the idea of actually applying a colored lacquer to the symbols Yeah, I mean Nick Mason, man. I mean he Having a big player like that could really pull some some weight So all right, so color and then and then let's keep chugging along here because we're we're close. I mean We're we're in the 80s. I feel like it you know, we're in the It says on the wiki here a couple times that we're We're still in the golden era the second golden era. Is that pretty true? I mean this would be the the rise of the 2002s and all that stuff Is that kind of what constitutes the quote unquote golden era? Yeah, that's that's kind of my personal little Saying that I like saying that you know because this is the era that I I grew up with and I was playing drums and you know Again, this is pre sabian. I mean sabian really come on the scene until 83 as I you know, I I knew but I found out the details from listen to your your andy zilgin podcast, which is great Yeah, thank you But yeah, I you know it was and and you know again my personal point of view was zilgin was kind of rested on their laurels And pisie had all these you know new young bands and and the music style had changed the look had changed and Pisie was right there, you know right right in the moment, you know supplying what what needed what the You know new is new bands wanted or needed Um, totally one of the one of the big things that happened to during this era if we go to 86 is what I call the great phase out and That is when pisie Did a major shift and and discontinued a whole bunch of their lines and In some ways they semi discontinued in 2002, but There's a story I have behind this and again You kind of have to be around my age a lot of younger listeners don't realize that there used to be a different coke And There was in in 85. I was working in a liquor store And the new coke came out and what what? Coca-Cola had determined that people needed a new flavor And there was all this competition. They used to do these taste tests with pepsi and how everybody preferred coke But for whatever reason they decided their marketing department over is decided, you know what? We need a new flavor. We're going to retire the quote-unquote old coke and we're going to come out with the new coke Well, the new coke Was softer tasting and it didn't have the snap That the old coke had and it failed miserably Now there's a parallel to that with the 3000 line And the 3000 was supposed to be the replacement or was the replacement for the 2002 and in Robert's interview he talks about How he didn't think the 2002 would last in the 80s and they were always striving For new sounds and new development and he felt at that time that it was time to To design a new symbol To replace the 2002 to keep up with the current music trends So the 3000 was very similar to the 2002 and I actually owned one along with all my 2002 So I was able to do an abe comparison every time I played played the drums And what I noticed was it was a more aggressive sounding symbol had a stronger mid-range They had larger bells relative to the 2002s And it had this odd laving that was very flat and shallow compared to that the deeper grooves he would see on the 2002 and The 3000 kind of really went the same way as the new coke, you know people I'm sure they were popular But what happened was that was that as soon as the 3000 came out there was this big demand for 2002s And piscy was trying to move away from the 2002 and focus their production on the 3000 They couldn't because people kept asking for 2002s. Yeah So the 2002 continued through that whole period While the 3000 the 2000 the 1400 the 200 the 200s were produced the other factor That Was part of this was and again, this was an interview I read with either robber tumis Was the 404 and the 505 especially the 505 Was too expensive to produce um the 505 Production wise is so close to the 2002 that I'm making the educated guess that Piscy was not making any money off of it or maybe even losing money The the amount of labor involved to produce that symbol was almost the same amount of labor it took to produce in 2002 Yet in the catalog they were 30 cheaper. Yeah, so it just doesn't work Yeah, and again remember these symbols that they're hammered they're machine hammered They're manually machine hammered into shape So they have the same manufacturing process as the 2002s and 602s and it's out of creations You know the big differences that I'm lading, you know, there's little things here and there that They will omit To bring the amount of labor down to reduce the cost, but with the 505 They're just you know, they would have to raise the price a substantial amount. So instead what they did was They transitioned to this new series and the 1000 Was supposed to be the replacement for the 505 But construction wise the 2000 was really the 505 But the 2000 was more expensive If that makes sense It's funny because it's just a ton of numbers, but I think uh, we it does make sense I mean it's it it makes me think too with like the whole taking the 2002s away and thinking we got to innovate that can sometimes be the uh The double-edged sword of being such an innovative company where it's like you're doing, you know The color sound symbols and you're doing all these things and the other companies are kind of copying you a couple years later to keep up with you But it's almost like you can't forget what people really like with your classic lines like the 2002 and such You know where it's like Don't take them only keep them going One of the other driving forces too is my understanding is that 2002 sales numbers would start to drop So, you know Pisces looks at their sales numbers that okay. Well 2002 is losing popularity You know, it's not fitting with with the times with the styles of music that are out now So let's develop something new so they develop something new and release it And then the customers are like well, wait a second. We we like 2002s We you know, you want to keep we want to keep, you know, don't don't discontinue So all of a sudden the man shoots way back up again. So the price is okay. Uh cheese. All right. Well, we got to go back Yeah, you know, honestly, it's funny because I think that same thing I remember listening to some podcast or something about the history of coke and It talked about that about how once new coke went away and old coke came back numbers skyrocketed where it's like it's almost like a a you create a Like a rush on the market with your own prop taking your your popular product away and then bringing it back It's it's that's got to be a business Tactic, I don't think they did that as much as like a, you know, just a lucky happenstance of like, oh no It's back and then they sell a bunch but um Definitely an interesting further parallel to new coke. Um, but now So All right on your timeline here 86 is really kind of where it stops and even on Pistey's website it goes 81 to today it basically says Uh looking at Pistey's history on their website The company gains a firm Foothold in the world's largest musical instrument market with the establishment of Pistey's america Of Pistey america in california, which we talked about Thomas's son Eric Pistey is sent there in the late 80s to look after Pistey's us operations In 2003 Eric assumes overall responsibility for the family's business So Eric Pistey gets involved In the 80s and then takes over in 03 which It's in the it's in the family. Who who is Eric's uh, you may have said this before but who who is Eric's father? He's a son of tumis or I was recently contacted and and somebody mentioned that it the traditional pronunciation pronunciation is thomas thomas. Okay So I don't know which is correct. So we can go either way. Yeah, both. Yeah, but that's good to say I'm both The one thing that is really important with that with the timeline post 86 was the the piscy signature series and the signature alloy and Again, this is another innovation with robert where They were starting to see issues with swiss metal in the 80s as far as I believe they're they're Their financial status um Again, I can't be more specific than that But I think they were kind of on shape shaky ground by the time you get to the mid to late 80s Yeah, so that may have been part of an incentive for robert to develop a bespoke uh new alloy and um, the intention was to Replace the b20 symbols and specifically the 602 but also to Make something new that was quote unquote better, you know Than the 602 and maybe take the best qualities of b8 and b20 combine them Into a new alloy, which will give you both You know the the the classic sound of b20 and then the nice high end that b8 has Uh, and you end up with really what is b15? I mean, I've looked at the patent For for the signature alloy and they state something like 14.8 to 15.2 percent 10 So it's basically b15 Which you don't you don't hear about those different, uh, you hear about b8 and you're about b20 you don't hear about the other Yeah, bees, you know So again, I mean, this is you know, piecy innovation. It's it's amazing that that You know that they would come up with something like this And the story goes that robert had tried several different mixtures Uh, you know b10 b12 b15 You know yada yada yada and he found that he liked the sonic qualities of the b15 alloy the best You know, they they were producing they would make a symbol out of these different alloys And this is what what he really liked so he decided to go with this now my understanding not to get too technical is if You stay below b12, which is 12 uh 10 The alloy is what's called single phase, which means that the copper and 10 are completely mixed together And there's there's no uh issues with rolling Which is the advantage of b8 and the fact that it can be rolled cold and it's relatively easy to produce But once you get above b12 you get into the b b20 range where You have to do all this heating and cooling and tempering and then reheating to roll it And then reheated every time you roll it you have to heat it up and be very careful with the temperatures and and very precise So b15 falls into this range It's somewhere in between that they still need to have a hot rolling stage at some point roll it hot but the last stage you can roll it cold and I have this crazy story from frets where frets was actually involved with wyland works who was producing the b15 and They originally had the b15 produced I believe in the Czech Republic And they had all these issues in the very early signatures were actually produced with this alloy and they had a lot of cracking problems And they moved the production to wyland works in germany and they did some tweaking how they produced the alloy And they're able to produce an alloy that was much more stable and reliable, but frets told me the final process when they do the last cold rolling stages The alloy actually cracks on the surface you get the surface cracking And what they have to do is they have to machine or grind off 20 from each side Wow to to grind down past the cracking area So you lose 40 of your material right off the top before you're actually even able to make a symbol out of it So he said this is the reason why signatures were so expensive Especially in the beginning when they were released was the cost to produce the alloy was really was more expensive than b20 actually Now the question is why why would they do this? Well Because b15 had the sound that robert wanted. This is what he wanted and it really was You have to produce this at any cost because this is this is what works so You know the next time you're playing any kind of b15 symbol, you know If it's a traditional or a signature or Anything like that. Just know that There was a lot of hard work producing that symbol in that alloy. Totally. It's very it's very special Yeah, even the the development of figuring that out of like how to how much to shave off and all this stuff It's just it's just insane, but that's piecing a nutshell right there Yeah, well and and their partner wyland works who took over with the producing of of all their alloys Yeah, uh, yeah, totally has been very good and that's also you know part of the industry the fact that they're using You know a large You know foundry mill that has a lot of experience and it's not a home brew type of production they're using What the best term could be is the scientific process So they're very very accurate with their their production and the process is very consistent with that alloy Yeah, totally man, um So we're getting obviously close to the end here and uh, I've I've promised people you we won't have another As much as people might want, uh, three hours total of pasty history We'll keep it relatively shorter But so talk a little bit about as we wrap up the the the new b20 and I know our friend, uh fritz Stagger was involved in it. So what's the deal with that? so, um, I believe it was Was it 2011 when the new 602s were released? I could be wrong on that on the release date. And then of course, there's Vinnie Caliuta with with the modern essentials, which I was blown away when I saw that. I mean, I couldn't believe they got they got Vinnie. Yeah, for sure Piste got Vinnie. I can't believe this You know, they might as well have gotten buddy rich to endorse them. Yeah, totally really So my understanding from talking to uh fritz. He actually was had firsthand involvement with this um while in works Was producing b8 for pasty, you know swiss metal was gone by 94 um Was out of the picture and while in works is producing a b8 and they're producing the b15 for pasty and while and On their own decided, you know, we're gonna We're gonna take it run a producing b20 and we're gonna offer it to all the the modern symbol companies, which would have been minor Piste Sabian and zilgin so There was a book published in the 1937 by a doctor a phd uh, uh, um a metallurgist who did a scientific analysis and research of The beat how you produce b20, you know, the temperature it's melted how it's mixed What temperatures you need to heat the material to Before you roll it how quickly you cool it, you know I mean, and you know how the germans are I mean, they're so good with industry and so specific with these types of things So he basically wrote a recipe book a cookbook on how to make b20 So this is common knowledge. I guess in the industry and While in went through the book and they had their own metallurgists and they produced b20 again according to The cookbook so they would produce this quote-unquote perfect form of b20 and From conversations with fritz and his conversations with wyland Works he found that the reason why 602s had a particular sound and they don't sound like zilgin and sabians A lot of it has to do with the manufacturing of the alloy itself That is one of the big factors in why 602 sound the way they do and as fritz referred to it as the quote-unquote Hi-fi sound And a lot of that is 602s have that sweet crisp high end That zilgin and sabians don't have So long story short um wyland starts to shop around the b20 and they take it to pisce And you know pisce is just about to start the production of the master series. So they've got Uh, a foundries in turkey that are actually producing the b20 form. So they're not interested so wyland at some point Contacts fritz and i believe fritz helps wyland contact minel And fritz brings some blanks to minel says hey check this out. Here's a new b20 that That wyland is producing and minel says oh, this is interesting. Okay. Let's check it out And minel produced i believe in the early 2000s or bit 2000s what was called the m series And that was their b20 line that they produced from minel's b20 alloy fritz went to do His interview with robert pisce. I believe in 2006 and he brought the blanks with them The the b20 blanks from uh wyland works And i don't know exactly changed but fritz told me that well or before or during the conversation He mentioned to robert. Hey by the way, i've got these b20 blanks and robert says well, what are you talking about? He said let me show him to you So robert was very interested. He says yes leave him with me So he he liked them. He fritz told me there were some minor changes they made But that was the basis for the reissue 602s and the modern essentials now wyland also shopped that b20 to uh Sabian and zilgin and sabin zilgin both turned them down and to quote fritz Sabin zilgin told wyland. We're not interested because we could produce it here cheaper Which makes sense because it's it's very expensive to produce things in in germany, you know the labor costs and whatnot and obviously wyland's gonna mark it up But it would be funny that either zilgin and or sabian And if they decided to use that b20 they would use the same alloy that were being was being used both by model and peisty I thought it would be that would be very funny. That would be very interesting scenario. Yeah. Oh my god Wow, it's so cool how involved fritz Is and you know has been with this stuff. I mean it just it just goes to show that someone like him i feel lucky that uh He has provided so much information and along with all the other people we've we've mentioned in the first episode Really to make these this history possible because it's it's it's kind of tough to put it all together and like we did with the opening Housekeeping kind of thing of this Of it's still sort of evolving and new information is coming out. Um along the way so man it's just unbelievable and and as people are probably figuring out that it's like We were pretty heavy on the early, you know era and then you know early 1900s through, you know the 80s And um, there's still I'm sure there's still plenty of other stuff to cover But really we're we're kind of that's kind of our sweet spot is up till like 90s and stuff and you just obviously touched about on on later stuff there, but um, yeah It it's just uh, I think it it's fair to say that it was business as usual then and with eric Piste running the company everything seems to be going very very smoothly and they're just an absolutely dominant Um force in the cymbal world today. I mean there's no denying that Yeah, and you know, they continued to innovate. I mean I I'm It's hard for me to keep track of of um all the different lines they produce and I mean, it's that's the piste way, you know piste has always found a way. Yeah To be innovative and creative and it's you know, it just never Sees us to amaze me and and they're still catering to The modern taste of musicians what what musicians are interested in and you see that with the masters in 20 series where they've got You know very dark very earthy sounded cymbals, which people are really into now They've got a lot of of really trashy noise making type of cymbals with like pstx Yeah You know, I love the fact that they're producing giant beats at 602s and And the modern essential 602s and obviously they're still producing 2000 twos You know, those are all my old school favorites. So You know, I'm I'm glad that piste really has something to offer to literally everybody Absolutely, that's a great way to put it. There's something for everyone So maybe if you're listening to this and you are like a player of one of the other brands Go out and get some piste cymbals because obviously they're they're unbelievable But I think most people have played them and know just how great they are but Cool. Well, Dan, let's tell people here. Well, first off, thanks to everyone who's listened to both episodes all the way through That's a whole lot of piste content. You're like it Over two and a half almost three hours of piste history, which I think is is really cool I was like I said very surprised at like the day I released it how many people were like this episode was great Can't wait for part two So they they seemed to everyone seemed to enjoy it. So I hope everyone liked this one too Um Let's just tell people I think the best way to to see a lot of your documentation of all this would be on symbol.wiki And click the piste tab there and you can go and see a lot of this Yeah, and it's pretty obvious, but you can go to piste.com paist.com And then you can see, you know, everything piste is doing today And I've met a few folks at piste like I mentioned in the first one And they're just super nice people and I'm I'm just so happy that I could finally do an episode About piste itself a word about the wiki The one thing I want to mention and I mentioned at the beginning of the pot of this part of the podcast is you know, the wiki is ever expanding ever growing and There's always updates and changes So You know, obviously I try to be as accurate as possible and a lot of times you'll see question marks or asterisks Next to a particular date or a statement And that's because it's a lot of times it's hard to produce any kind of hard evidence and some of it is word of mouth You know, this person talked to so-and-so at piste and this is what they said So, you know Take that, you know, take what you read with a grain of salt and that we've made our best effort to be as accurate as possible And I've got some great sources. Obviously The knowledge I gained from fritz has been exponential You know, and it's been really hard to to digest all of it. Yeah, um, but you know We, you know, the the people that that work on the wiki have made a really Really hard effort to try to be accurate Um, there was a lot of detail stuff I originally got involved with this because I wanted to collect pistes That's how I got involved with the wiki and I want to learn more about the history and What would be an interesting symbol to to buy not necessarily for value but more Just I was really interested in their b8 history So that's how I really got involved with the wiki and it's I got sucked in, you know totally He just was just a case of more and more and more the more I learned the more I wanted to know and You know, it's fascinating But the information is hard to come by especially if you go back Before the 70s and especially before the war the information is virtually non-existent So yeah, yeah, that said, I mean virtually Anything especially when you're looking to try to date a symbol It's really important with with the prices people are asking now for symbols And a warning that there are people out there that are trying to sell You know lower level symbols. I've seen a few people will try to sell like big old silver level standards and ask You know $350 for it And it's no this is, you know a mid lower even entry level symbol and it's not worth $350 So it's important to understand what you're looking at and to date it and to know what model it was and You know, it's intrinsic value and you know, you're really willing to pay that much But yeah that being said that is some of the the incentive behind producing the wiki, you know It's a case and so people understand you know What Pisces or what where they came from how they got to where they are now, you know, it's it's a rich history Absolutely And in a fascinating history. Yeah, totally, which isn't over. Um, there's plenty of pisty To come it's not going anywhere. So yeah, all right. Well Again, thank you to everyone who we mentioned in the last episode.  I believe you said todd little right was a big help to you fritz stager Raphael Zimmerman Let's see tim shahady from pisty who talked to me a little bit at some of the shows and stuff and obviously Dan, thank you very much. So again, everyone Dan Garza has been our amazing guest and uh, our guide through the history of pisty for this two-part mega episode. So um, Dan, thank you so much for doing this and just Really taking all this time and effort and redoing things and finding stuff. It's just been amazing So I really appreciate you getting this pisty history out in public and letting me be the way you did it I'm honored. So thank you for being here. Thank you If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning