Article one is to elect a moderator. For that, I'm going to turn this election over to the supervisor of elections, our town clerk, Jeremy. Good morning, everyone. Thank you for being here. Good morning, Jeremy. It's a great day for democracy. We're all glad to come back and be able to gather together again. So it's just very heartening to see all of you here and all of the participation has been amazing. I am here to conduct an election for our town moderator. And we have the lead. I nominate Gus Sealig. We have the name Gus Sealig as moderator for the interior. Do we have a second? Tell me your names. Dot Helen. Dot Helen, second. Are there any other nominations? Is that better? Are there any other nominations for town moderator? Seeing none, are we ready to vote? All those in favor, please say aye. Those opposed, the floor is yours. Good morning. I'm Gus Sealig. It's been my pleasure to be your moderator for a number of years. I will not do this forever. And so if anybody's interested in taking over the next few years, let me know. And I'll be happy to talk to you about it. I want to do a bunch of thank yous, but I want to first review the rules of town meeting and how this operates. There may be a few people who are here for the first time. But I think all of us, including your moderator, are rusty at town meeting because we haven't been in person for a number of years. And so I think it'll be helpful to go over the rules and talk about how we conduct business here. Basically, we use the published warrant, which begins on page four in the town report. And we go through each of the articles. And we do that in conjunction with utilizing Robert's rules of order to conduct business, which I'll try to explain briefly as I interpret them as best I can. You are functioning today as the town's legislature. The warning is coming from your administrative body, which is the town's select board, as well as articles that have been petitioned or asked for by a number of different groups. And you're going to make decisions about them today. The select board sits up here to be accountable to you, but they're not in charge of this meeting. Everybody today is equal in their participation in the rooms. In order to get recognized, you'll need to raise your hand. And I'll do my best to recognize you, to speak. We begin by getting somebody to move an article, usually a proponent of the article, and get it seconded, and then we're open for debate again. Some people don't like microphones, but I have to tell you that a bunch of us are old enough that we're going to ask you to wait till a microphone gets to you, because some of us don't hear as well as you might think we ought to hear. And it's not just because we're not listening, it's because we got old. So please use the mics in the sound system. If you are seeing somebody you haven't seen for quite a while and you really want to have a conversation with them, that's great, but please take it outside, because the background noise in this room can be disturbing to people who are trying to follow along. There are three ways to vote at town meeting. Most of the time, we do business with a voice vote. But some issues require more precision than voice votes. So there's something called division. And anybody can request the division of the house. And you should have one of these cards.  If there's a really contentious issue or maybe not so contentious, but you want the number of votes, the A&A, recorded, seven people can request a paper ballot. Any person can request it. And as long as six of your neighbors agree with you, you'll have a paper ballot. In general, it's good to expect to speak to an issue once. And then if you really feel compelled to speak to an issue a second time, you're likely going to have to wait for me to get back to you. Sometimes in town meeting debate, you may say something and then somebody will say something in return to respond to your comments, or maybe even do it in the form of a question. You don't get to immediately answer them.  And the rules of town meeting also say that you don't get to, without the permission of the body, you don't get to speak to an issue for a third time without the permission of the body. So think about what you'd like to say. Here's an old expression. If I'd had more time, I would have written you a shorter letter. And you may want to think about that. If you talk for a really long amount of time, I may say something like, could you get back to me? And I feel like you've gone way beyond the article. I might say something like, could you get back to the point of the article? And that means that at least my very small brain is not following the way you're taking us around the border to make your point. So just keep that in mind. In past years, we've had an article that is not in this year's morning to review the town reports. And I think that probably got dropped because we didn't need it when we were voting the last several years by our Schwellian ballot. But after we elect people from the floor and before we get to the select board's budget, if anybody's got a question about the town report or any other thing that's of concern, what's going on with CD5 or anything else, that would be a fine time to just raise questions and concerns that you might have. Let's see. The select board's giving you quite a long report. In the town report, it starts on page 23. And I want to just acknowledge the long amount of service that we've gotten from the select board, which in total is close to 50 years. And I think Denise you provided about half that service. And so I want to thank all of you along with the town officers, town officers, staff, Jeremy, and your team for getting us ready for today. I also want to acknowledge that we will have lunch. And it's not going to cost you anything, but we do ask you to support the food shelf. And David in historic headquarters, thank you. So why don't we give it up for everybody who's serving us today? And I just want to say, as we begin a new chapter with a complete turnover of our select board, this has been tough years to be in any kind of public service. Some of you have read that one third of the legislature did not come back this year and ask anybody who teaches school or is a nurse at the hospital. This has been a tough time to be interacting in any way with the public. Whether it's because we've been stressed out about our own family's health or stressed out about how life has changed through a pandemic. So I hope that we'll be patient with each other. That however vigorously we made the debate and issue today that we remember that we're all, we walked in as friends and neighbors. We're going to still be neighbors at the end of the day and that we are a community that cares about each other. With that, I think I've gone over the rules. Are there questions about how this meeting is conducted that anybody wants to raise with me? Barry, you need a microphone. Very Bernstein, please call us. I did have a couple of resolutions that I wanted to offer in other business, but I thought it would be appropriate after your comments if I could read those. Sure, okay, let me get in my glasses. The first is a resolution for Jeremy Weiss, town clerk. The residents of call us offer their thanks and appreciation to Jeremy Weiss for his services at town clerk. Jeremy during his time built on the work of our past town clerks, shepherding improvements and keeping in storage of town records, town processes, and inclusion of photos and statements of select board candidates in our town report. Jeremy was always willing to go the extra mile and with a smile. The second resolution is for a call us select board. The residents of call us offer their thanks and appreciation to the call us select board for their dedication and many years of service to our town. Denise Wheeler, former select board chair, John Brayband, Rick Keane, have given many years, thousands of hours of their time to address often very controversial issues that face our town. Sharon Nguyen has also given much of her time and most recently as chair of the board. All of the select board has stepped up to fill in whenever necessary, no matter how, no matter whether any of us as residents of call us have stood on any issue, our town recognizes the often thankless task of service these positions require. And I'll offer those if it's appropriate later during other business. Okay, thank you very much, Barry. Okay, article three, and just Barry did something really good which is he introduced himself. And so when you get the microphone, please do tell us who you are part of town you live in. Article three, the first item is to elect the trustee of public funds to a three-year term. Rod Buck is the incumbent, nominations are open. We have a second and it's been seconded. Are there any further nominations? If not, could I have a motion to have the clerk cast one ballot to elect Rod Buck, the office of trustee of public funds? And a second? It's been moved and seconded to close nominations and have the clerk cast one ballot for Rod Buck is trustee of public funds. All those in favor, please say aye. Opposed? Okay, Rod's been elected. Next position is Cemetery Commissioner. This is a five-year term. Michael Fullerton is the incumbent. This, it says term expires next year, but he was appointed and so needs to be elected at this town meeting to continue to serve. So nominations are now open for that position. Okay, do we have a second? It's been moved and seconded. Are there any further nominations? Thank you. Okay, seeing no other nominations, could I have someone make a motion to have, to close nominations and have the clerk cast one ballot for Michael Fullerton? It's been moved by Sharon and the other, the second and it's been seconded. All those in favor of electing Michael Fullerton to be a cemetery commissioner with a term expiring in 2024, please say aye. All those opposed? Michael is elected. The next one is Juanita Nunn's position, which expires in 2028, nominations are open. Okay, we're good friends. We'll work hard together. Do we have a second? It's been moved and seconded. Are there any other nominations for Cemetery Commissioner expiring in 2028? Seeing none, can I have a motion to have the clerk, to close nominations and have the clerk cast one ballot for Juanita Nunn? It's been moved by Sharon. We have a second and it's been seconded. All those in favor of having the clerk cast one ballot for Juanita Nunn with a term expiring in 2028, please say aye. Opposed? And Juanita, thank you. The next position for Cemetery Commissioner is vacant. It goes through 2025, so nominations are open. It had been filled by Randy Koch, who's resigned. Anybody like, yes Juanita? I would like to nominate Sage Kennedy. Okay, Sage Kennedy's been nominated. Is there a second? Okay, it's been seconded. Any other nominations for position Cemetery Commissioner? We know, I assume you know that Sage is willing to serve. She is expressing a yes. Okay, thank you. All those, we can have a motion to have the, to close nominations and have the clerk cast one ballot for Sage Kennedy. It's moved and seconded. Yep, all those in favor of electing Sage Kennedy to be a Cemetery Commissioner through 2025, please say aye. Opposed? Okay, we've done that. So again, this is where we used to have an article to open the floor to questions about the town reports. So if there are any questions about anything regarding town business, this is a good time to raise them. If you have a specific question about something that's in the morning, you can hold it later. And we have a hand and the microphone is on its way to you and introduce yourself. I'm Scott Bassage from East Calus. I'd like to know what's going on with C.D. Fiber. Okay, David, could you get out of the corner and grab the microphone. Don't let him out of the corner. And of course, I want to know when it's showing up at my house and I want a specific date. My name's David Healy and I'm the town delegate to C.D. Fiber. And some of you in certain parts of town have seen the construction trucks hanging Fiber on various poles. Calus, as you know, has seven zip codes. We have five distribution areas and they're being constructed in that sequence. So you may not be first, but you won't be last. Calus is the first. And we are hoping to have it lit to the first distribution area sometime in April or May. We're running into a difficulty with the wetlands at the Maple Corner substation. So we have to get a permit. And we don't know how long that's gonna take. That may hold up a little bit, but we're hopeful that that will happen. And so the first distribution area should be up and running in late April or early May, followed by the second distribution area, which is running on West Calus going into Worcester. And then followed by North Calus going into Woodbury and then moving later the year to East Calus going up into Marshville and East Hill. So it takes a while, but we're making good progress. And I'll be happy to answer any questions. Yes, there's a question right here. Okay, give it a try. Here's Erica, here's a microphone. Oh, okay. My name is Erica Howman. I'm just wondering what the timeframe is for the last totally selfish question. For the last distribution you were saying is later in the year, does that mean the end of 2023 is when you'll get to East Calus? There's some people will be early 24. Okay. Yeah, I have maps on the corner over here if you want to say. Okay, thank you very much. And there's one other thing I want to say, but anyway, oh yeah, please sign up so you notify when services are available to you. Doesn't commit you to anything, just let you know, we can let you know when you have service. Thank you. Okay, Gary, you've got a question. We can get a microphone, is there a hot row? I've got one more question. No, just on behalf of the town, I wanted to thank David Healy. He's done an incredible job of, I don't know if people know, but this project with David and Bill Paul from WEC and a few others would not have happened if people hadn't had perseverance to stick in there for this many years. And of course, David also has given a lot who is professional time free to both WEC and to CB Fiber and the whole project, so thanks. Okay, we've got Paul Hannon with a microphone. Hi there, I'm Paul Hannon from South Calus, and I just noticed David didn't mention South Calus, but that's not what I wanted to talk about. I'm sorry, Paul, that's not what I wanted to talk about. I just wanted to say I really missed the People Magazine section of the report, namely the birth, deaths, and marriages. I talked to Jeremy about it, he sort of shrugged and said, oh, I kind of dropped it last year and you know, didn't have all the information. So I guess I just want to, I don't even know if it's appropriate, make a motion to let's put the birth, deaths, and marriages back in the town report. We all like to see who's here and who's not. We have an advisory motion on the floor. Do we have a second? Moved and seconded that we add back. We asked whoever's elected town clerk to add back births, deaths, and marriages to next year's town report. Is there any further discussion? If not, all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay, all right, I hope the candidates are listening. Okay, other questions anybody wants to ask about the town reports, there's. James, the LA Elevities Calus. I'm also the president of Fort Verity Fire Department. I have a question regarding a couple of articles that we submitted. We submitted two articles to be voted on this year, but they were split into three articles. Articles 17 and 18 in the town report were supposed to be one article. Now I was curious as to why they were split. I also have a copy of the articles I submitted to the select board and the email chain with the acknowledgement of receipt. 17 and 18 should have been one article and not two. I understand. Apparently we, apparently, yeah, so the question is why did we split them? That was weeks ago. I understand that. I was just curious. It might have been a recommendation from our NEMRIC advisor who's been supporting us as a treasurer maybe because one is a fund and one is operating. That's rational as I look at it, but honestly I specifically, as I said it was weeks ago, I don't remember. That makes sense. One goes into the operating fund and one goes into the replacement fund and then the other one is to support the truck replacement fund. So you still get, the money is still all there. It's just in three separate articles. Right, just for clarification, they were combined in the articles we submitted as because article 17 and 18 are required by our contract with you guys. Right, but there's, I guess I don't understand what the problem is. They're still here, the money. I agree. I was just curious as to why they're pulling the town report separately from the way they were submitted. It's a budgeting thing because you have to have a line item for each budget amount. So that's fine. Thank you. Yep. Any other questions on the various town reports anybody wants to raise? Okay, seeing no hands, we're gonna go on to article four, which is shall the voters approve the total general fund and highway fund expenditures of $1,956,645, of which $1,245,372 shall be raised by taxes and $319,717 by non-tax revenue. If somebody on the select board like to move that question, we still need to move the article as it's printed in another half of the amendment. The article's been moved by Sharon. It's been moved by Sharon, do we have a second? It's been moved in second, but now is there discussion including a possible amendment or you need a few minutes to check your mail? Hi, I just wanna clarify that this article is raising the $1.2 million. And so if you go to the top of page 49, you'll see the general and highway fund budget, and then you'll also see the income. And if you subtract those two, you get the $1.2 million. I just like to offer a friendly amendment that half the funds go to the South Calus and East Calus. You're out of order. Further discussion, yes. I need a microphone over here, Sharon. I'm Charlotte Hammabassage, hi. It's so nice to be here. Our expenditures that we're voting on are 1,956 of which, 1,200, roughly speaking, are to be raised from taxes. But I notice that on page 41, the select board is holding on to a fund balance, which means they have extra money, of $532,000, which is about 30% of the spending so only 11,000 of that has been committed. So most of it is just plain sitting there. So I don't think that that does a lot of benefit to the town of Calus. I congratulate the select board for paying off the debt that they had, the deficit that they had. And I notice that many of our bonds have been paid off and that the town office will be paid off next year, which is fabulous, but $532,000 is a whopping amount in my opinion. So I know I have no ability to propose changes, but I might make a few just general suggestions and one suggestion might be a whopping severance bonus to Jeremy, one might be that any amount that we give to the dam would reduce the amount that we have to pay an extra taxes for a bond. And so those are one time only things that doesn't obligate us to do anything in the future. So I would just like to see more that things that might reduce our taxes and I just consider that just too big an amount to sit on. So that's my comment. So. Denise, you have the floor. Yeah, that fund balance is what has been suggested that we carry over so that when we get to the end of the fiscal year, we don't have to borrow money in anticipation of taxes. So that fund balance that we carry forward is recommended by the accountants. And to add to that, before we had a fund balance each year, we would borrow and then pay it off as taxes come in. So in other words, and pay interest, in other words, it's a cushion that is spent before the taxes come in to pay the bills. The bills come all the time, but taxes come in twice a year. And so having a fund that kind of rolls and carries this across protects us from having to borrow money, which used to be our practice. And as Denise just commented, paying interest in that event. Other questions or comments buried in the front and then we're gonna go to the top row from the grandstand. I think it's probably appropriate within the purview of the next collect board if they wanna alter that. It's not alter the amount or use that amount for part of that amount. That's a question. And Barry, I think the answer to that is once we've voted a budget, that's the select for incoming select board budget they can choose to expend it exactly the same way they can make some reasonable adjustments should they choose to. Oh, we have a comment. Hi, this is a question. Pam DeAndrea, North Cal, I guess. It does this general fund that for the highway includes the salary of $80,000 for a director of public works. And if so, was this compared to other public work directors in rural towns around the state? That's just one thing I wanna make sure that we're not elevating the salary, thank you. That is under, that DPW expenses under highway. So and ultimately too, that replaces other positions too. It's fairly cost neutral I think.  And also pick up in the process, pick up our building management so that we can get sort of other things other than the highway as well. So I don't know if that answers your question. Yeah, it's, yeah, that definitely would be, it's a salary position and it's pretty much a seven day per week, 24 hour day job. It definitely is, it's not a, I mean our, you know, the road commissioners making 70 or so or even more with overtime. So yeah, definitely. That's not, if you go much lower than you want, you'll get no, no, you won't get credit for it.  This budget does not include stipends for the select board. And I think it's important that we recognize the hard work that our select board puts in and I'd like to make a motion to put $5,000 into the budget for select board stipends. Okay, do we have a second? Moved and seconded that we amend the budget and add $5,000 and the intent is to provide stipends to the incoming select board. Further discussion, yeah. If Donna would consider a friendly amendment, the amount of hours these guys put, whoever they are, is unbelievable. It's just really, we couldn't pay enough for what they do. So I would really like to raise that number to $1,500 or $7,500, it's not, it's really only a token recognition of the word. So, if you're... So Donna is saying that's a friendly enough amendment that she accepts it and does the person who's seconded the motion accept it as a friendly amendment? Yeah. The dollar amount is $7,500 at this point. We have a second to that motion, that amendment. Moved and seconded that we amend the budget upward by $7,500 and we have a comment over here. I'm preglon, my question is sort of a point of order. Is this legal? Is it kosher? I'm not opposed, but I understand that we can't deduct the money from the budget and say, I don't wanna buy as much sand as they've got down, can we legally add money that is specifically earmarked? And if that's true, then how else do we accomplish this? So I'm gonna say two things and I'm gonna preface it by saying I am not a lawyer and so I'm not offering a legal opinion here. And every year before town meeting when I call the legal cities and towns to ask them how to handle such questions and every year depending on who answers the phone I get a slightly different answer. And if you found 10 lawyers, they'd give you 10 different answers. So you can amend a budget upward or downward within reason. There are town clerks, there are town moderators who from their own volition say that's not reasonable but what if you wanted to increase the budget by 50% that wasn't worn, that's unfair, I'm gonna rule it out of order. What it has not been litigated, the question of if you earmark money for a certain purpose must the select board spend it on that thing that's never been litigated according to the answer I got yesterday. So there's no clear answer to can you earmark it? Clearly if the town gives the incoming select board an instruction and they choose not to spend that money on that purpose, they will have to answer for it at a future town meeting unless somebody wants to take them to court. And that's kind of the best I can do from my understanding talking to the league yesterday. Well certainly it's in their own best interest to spend that money has to be one thing too it's going into their pocket. They can choose to or not. And I think with any article if you've asked them to spend money on some other public good are they absolutely, can they only spend it on that? Must they spend it is a question that the courts have not opined on. Yes. I just want to point out in terms of discretion if the select board has the practice over the years has been that some members choose to accept the slide pen and some members simply do not. Further discussion? Yes. Thank you. Michael Fullerton, North Canada. Devils, Rick came just a little bit of clarification. I noticed Director of Public Works was talked about and was a bit contentious at one point. Can you clarify exactly what positions are being replaced and how that's going to work? What are we getting rid of and what are we replacing it with? Well essentially you're consolidating ended. Yeah, we should deal with the amendment first. Thank you. Is there any further question on the amendment to add $7,500 to the budget with an express purpose of providing stipends for select board members should they choose to accept it? Yes, there's a hand up here. Dodd-Helling from Adamant. I seem to remember us voting on this previously. Was this last year's budget giving stipends? No. So it hasn't been done previously. This is the first time. Now there have been stipends in the budget in the past. My understanding is the select board eliminated that line item this year and the motion is to restore stipend. I don't know what the past stipend was. Yeah, that's my question historically if this has been done in the past. I mean, not that I'm against it. It's typically been about $3,500 and some of us choose to take the stipend and some don't. Last year we spent $3,500 total for all five members because it is a volunteer position. Here and the microphone is on its way. Barbara McAnder from Calis. I just wanna underscore this as a terrific move to restore because I think it's really important for folks who have to provide childcare or mileage or it's not a token amount. It's an important piece of serving our town and I fully support it. Thank you for the discussion of the amendment. If not, I think we're ready for the question. All in favor of adding $7,500 to article four for the purpose of enhancing, providing stipends for the select board, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? No. The ayes appear to have it. The ayes do have it and you've amended the article. Further discussion on the article. Michael, you now have the floor. Thanks, I think Rick was in the middle of explaining to me who's being replaced by the director of public works and exactly how that's gonna work. Well, essentially what we were trying to do, we were splitting up, we've got a road foreman who's going and doing a lot of administrative work we've got and then we've got a grants administrator who's administering the grants and that we roll those into one position and also with the intent of actually having them, they're actually working slightly outside of highway to manage our buildings that we've got so that we're not getting into deferred mails and in situations downstream. And really importantly in this, if we've never really done good strategic planning in this town for our roadway infrastructure, it's very expensive. Got a lot of miles of road, we've got bridges, we've got many hundreds of culverts and things like that. And this person, a really key part of this is to really create a long-term picture for us so that we can begin to actually, we can even the option of reserve funding to be able to pay for this, get money together for these things in advance so that we're possibly not even bonding for this over time to really stabilize taxes. We can't do that in this current environment. We also, they are going to go, this will really give overall direction with the grant management. We're working with agency natural resources, we're working with agency transportation. So we're going to be directing, he's going to be really directing the road crew and where we're doing the work in a really timely way and a prioritized way so that we're not wasting money. This is a real, I mean, this can be really game-changing for Cal. We don't do that now. We haven't really had the ability to do it. We want a road crew out doing that, you know, managing the roads and not having to kind of work in that bureaucratic realm at all. We don't even want a road foreman doing that. You know, we want this in an administrative role and an oversight role to be able to capture that. We budgeted for this. The new board may or may not adopt this path. I mean, there's talk of town administrator. There are a lot of ways you could kind of formulate this. It has to be done very carefully. I mean, we're getting to the point now where we need some level of higher administration. It's getting too complicated for elected citizen boards to manage all of this effectively. We're losing a lot of resource because of that. I mean, I see it happening right now. You know, we just, I mean, Toby has been wonderful in the work he did in drawing grants to this town. He's probably well over a million dollars worth of, you know, grant money he's brought in here. And we actually need this in our infrastructure. It's getting very expensive to manage this infrastructure. So we need somebody who's really professionally doing this all the time. And, you know, we were trying to bring a lot of pieces together into one, into one position instead of piecemealing this and not doing it very well. So that's our, this was, we put a lot of thought into this. The discussion was going in long before I was on the board. It's a good idea, you know, for my, there are towns that do it already. Tended to be in larger towns. You know, the places like Hartford and, you know, but and Bristol's, but it's getting to the point where smaller municipalities are just, it's becoming a reality that we really need to have because of the complexity of what we're facing. So then we put a lot of work and thought into this. And, you know, it's the best solution we could come up with the new board. I mean, this puts the funding in place to manage that. The new board is obviously going to have the, you know, the voice on where this goes, but that, you know, we think this is really, I mean, it's our unified position that this is really the direction we need to go. Does that answer your question, Mike? Yeah, thanks. Craig and then Gary. First of all, Rick, you're a friend, but I hesitate to only refer to possible successful candidates for the position as he. And I just got to call you on that in this, you know, National Women's Month of March. Expand the view. I'm not so sure about this. And one question I had was, are we committed to this? No, we're not because the new board can do what they will. My concern in this position as well as the town treasurer slash what does it say, town administrator, et cetera, is that the job is too big. The positions have been open for most of a year and one candidate was hired and only lasted a couple of weeks. Even if you put $80,000 and I don't see any benefits listed for that road operations, whatever position, I don't think it's realistic. In the utopian world of callous roads and buildings, it might be good to say, yeah, this is a way to go, but where are the candidates? Why are the positions open? That's my question. So on both of the positions that, well, so, so, so many positions are open. This is a good chance to do a public service announcement. If you have any itch to serve your town, please speak to any of us or Barbara Butler or Jeremy or folks who are already serving. I would encourage us all to not get too hung up on the title. There was some suggestion early back in the summer that we revisit the title and we talked about it, but we thought, you know, we've already baked this position. The title is the least important part of it. Really, it's about finding ways to fill these functions. And so we captured what we anticipated were reasonable budgets for two different positions. A new board can say, no, it's not two different positions, it's three, and we're gonna title them like this and break the budget out like that. But the point is to recognize that we need professional support, as Rick said, and across a bunch of functions. And to give a board, whether it had been this one or another one, the tools to go about that. We tried several different ways to fill those positions. We reworked job descriptions, posted them differently, got different kinds of candidates. Ultimately, regardless of the approach we yet have not hired somebody. And the most important thing is that there would be a budget to do it. I mean, to your question too, just, it's actually a very manageable job. We have DPWs around the state, they do this. This actually is manageable. We've been pretty careful to break this out.  We're actually, this is a little simpler than a bigger town, like a Bristol or Hartford, I'll give you an example. But this is, and we want to do the management position. And it starts to, you know, we're separating the bureaucratic function from the actual operational function while retaining real connectivity between what you have to have to maintain this infrastructure. So I think the fact that we haven't hired is not the position. It's our time right now. I mean, this is across the board. I work in contracting with the state of Vermont, great for individual and general services. And we can't, I mean contractors, we can't, no one can hire right now. It's very, very difficult.  I think we're in a window of time where our whole workforce is in an adjustment. We're gonna have to just ride this out. Like I said, we aren't committed to this. We've committed money, appropriated money to do it. I mean, it can be, if the new select board wants to do this, it can break it apart into pieces again. That can be done. I mean, I personally think that's a mistake. You know, this is a real bad game for the town over time. And we're getting a lot more out of it. You know, it's, I think we're real benefit. But I respect what you say. I mean, I know it's a change. And it's, you know, and I, my word, your word, I don't know how it will ultimately further out. This is the best we could do with a lot of work, a lot of research into looking at how it's been done in other places. And we certainly know what we're facing to manage this infrastructure. And we're having problems, you know, and that's, we thought this was a good way to kind of level that up. Does that answer your question? Yeah, I appreciate the answer. Okay, we're gonna go to the front and then go to the middle. I know there's been a lot of thought and controversy about this. And the new board will have to weigh in, but unless we have all retired people on the board, we've had Rick and John have done part of the road commissioner. We've had Toby doing part of this. We just, we have the most dirt roads of any town in Dallas, we picked up new projects. I just think we're gonna have to look at a different way of managing this town that's strictly about volunteers. And I've had some differences in opinion on some of this, but we also, you know, in terms of wages, for instance, this came up with the town clerk. You can't hire anybody today. And Gus and I talked about this for less than 25 or $26 an hour. You just can't do it anymore. And Washington Electric Co-op, which has never had turnover, as some of you may know, I was president of the board for a long time, and I donated a lot of time and work full-time. It's a real stress. And as Barbara mentioned, you know, if you have kids, it's just another thing you gotta take on. I don't think many people realize when they do this. And this has nothing to do with the opinions of anybody. In regards to town clerk's position, I called around. Eastmouth Pillar has a full-time town administrator, full-time town clerk, and they pay in this salary range. They may be bigger, but the tasks aren't any more or less. It just means they have more people. So I know the new select board will take a close look at this, but I think we're just gonna have to realize we're in a changing environment and we can only ask so much of so many people. Thank you. Okay, we have a hand up here, and I'll just remind you we are on article four, which is to approve the general fund and highway budget, which has been amended for the $7,500. So that's the subject we're discussing and the floor's yours. I just had a quick question. So this is a full-time position, but there are no benefits. Oh, they did school. Okay, sir. The benefits are just budgeted in different lines as a cluster. You know, roll the benefits all into one line for highway, here it is. Okay, are there further questions for discussion or amendments in article four? Once going twice, Charlotte, you made your feelings known, but no amendments today? Okay, so as amended, Art, you're now, the question now is, shall the voters approve the total general fund and highway fund expenditures of, I believe $1,964,145, of which $1,252,872 shall be raised by taxes and 319,717 by non-tax revenue. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? And article four is passed. Okay, article five, shall the voters approve the sum of $49,500 for operation and maintenance of the cemeteries with somebody like to move that article? It's been moved by Michael, do we have a second? And it's been seconded by Linda. Discussion? Seeing none, are you ready for the question? And the question is, shall the voters approve the voters appropriate sum of $49,500, the operation and maintenance of the cemeteries? All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Article five passes. Article six, shall the voters appropriate $29,898 for the Kellogg-Hubert Library? Somebody like to move this article? It's been moved, will we have a second? Jeff, please. Okay, Jeff, would you like to speak to this article? Yeah. We'll get you a microphone. It's good to see everybody. My name is Jeff Dean, I've just taken over from Craig Line as the callous representative on the Board of Trustees of the Kellogg-Hubert Library. Thank you. The library is back up and running in person now. Very high rates of use over 400 people a day come and use the library. The rates for usage from callous are up. Kids programs that are back in person 100%, adult programs are mixed, virtual and in person. We're asking for level funding this year, same as last year. And I hope everybody comes in and visits the library and of course if you have any questions for me as the year goes on, please let me know. Okay, we are open for discussion on this article.  Cindy Gardner-Morse, I wanted to let folks know I have not been going into the library very often lately. I discovered I can get books and movies on my phone here and it's wonderful. If you haven't signed up to try that feature of the library, please try it. It's very convenient. And I'm in favor of supporting the library. Great, further discussion. Yes. Thank you for moving into the position. We have term limits, nine years, three three-year terms. It was enough. I fully enjoyed it. I just want to point out one thing that the board accomplished last year and that was to develop a strategic plan. Speaking of planning, we worked on it for eight months and it's the first strategic plan the libraries had in at least a dozen years. So it's a lot of forward thinking about how to better serve the communities and how to implement other programs, new programs. And it's up to Jeff and the rest of the current board to implement all that. That was a huge accomplishment. I just wanted to point that out. Oh, and a quick mention to the amazing, wonderful staff from the two co-directors on down through people you see at the desk. We're really lucky to have an amazing staff. Thank you. Okay, we have a hand in the middle and the mic is on its way behind you. Dot Helling again from Adamant. I just wanted to add to Cindy's comments. Another reason to support this is that we have a mini catalog at Adamant Co-op and I encourage you to use them, those resources if you can't get to town. We have books, tapes. They're refilled on a regular basis thanks to people like Shari Wolf. So I'm all for this. Thank you. Further discussion? Seems we're ready for the question. And the question is, shall the voters approve 29,000, appropriate 29,898 dollars for the Kellogg-Covered Library? All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? No. The ayes appear to have it. The ayes do have it and you've passed Article 6. Just before I jump on to Article 7, one more person who I'd like to thank at the beginning of the meeting is our former representative Janet Ansel and Janet also put in many, many year public service on behalf of somebody who's still in Montclair and miss you there, but glad to see you here. Article 7, and this one I'm not gonna read every whining. Shall the voters appropriate the sum of 31,100 dollars as requested by the following organizations in the Callis and Central Vermont area and then there are 27 entities listed. With specific amounts in your town report that you can see, I think the lowest is $200 and I can't tell you without looking more carefully, the largest may be for the Montclair Senior Center at 5,300 dollars. Oh, excuse me, Central Vermont Home Health and Hospice, they still, that's still, no, that's less than 5,300. Right, yes, yep, can I have a motion to move the, sorry, the article's been moved by Barry, do we have a second, we have a second in the back. We're open for discussion, yes. Hi, I'm Linda Sheets and I went in front of the select board twice and when I went the last time, the cupboard was there of ARCA funds, that's the federal money and so at least it promised funds and so it was suggested that maybe I come before you to add something to the budget, sorry, but I'm just gonna just put it out there, okay. I would like to suggest that, and this is one more thing about Curtis Pond, but this is separate, I would suggest that Curtis Pond needs handrails to get in. Number 10 Pond needs it too, but the town does not own number 10 Pond, it only owns Curtis Pond, so that's why we're talking about Curtis Pond. I had an injury last year, I'm an avid swimmer, I go from May to October, I couldn't get in the pond, I couldn't get down there and then I found out there was a lot of other people who are getting older like me that also couldn't get into the pond as easily as they did, so and also there are people with disabilities who can't get into the pond and these handrails would be good for maybe young kids too, so I have actually gone and I'm an estimate and David and I put a handrail in my house, our house and it's very good quality and so the man who did that railing, he made an estimate for the town and put two hand railings in Curtis, one would be down the stone steps and one would be going on the grassy area into the water area, so the price is, it would be helped if not to succeed $4,000, so that's high on this and it goes into the budget and yes you all would contribute to it but I just wanted to put out this necessity that people really do need to have entrance into a slimming pond when they need exercise and enjoy and so that's, so I would guess, I would say that I would propose to add to this article seven that not to succeed $4,000 to have two handrails for Curtis pond, okay. Can I switch it down please? It looks like you have it. Yes, we, so Linda is looking, so that was a motion just for clarification to install two handrails at the Curtis pond swim area. The town owns, yes, the swim area and the island, we do not own a pond, so just for clarification purposes, the stone steps are located at the swim area which most everyone here knows about and that's what Linda is seeking funding for. Okay, so I'm going to consider that an amendment to this article. Yes. I'm not sure, maybe it is, it's part of this, it might be more appropriate, I totally support it, whether it should be part of this, would it be more appropriate to be part of the article that, there's an article for swimming, right, for the swim lessons, et cetera. It's up to you, moderator, but I just wasn't sure whether it should be most appropriate. Definitely support it. Don't think, I think that's now part of the budget, is that correct, in the swimming program? There's not a separate article. So the move in seconded that we amend this article by adding $4,000 for rails at Curtis pond swim area for the discussion. Hand it back on the left and then we'll go to the other side. I think that, excuse me, my name's Tom McCartle and I live in Whitewood Road. First of all, I think that's a great suggestion, but I'm not sure that it ends there. If it is, as town property in a swim area, I wonder if perhaps that's not the only accessible feature that's needed, accessible parking to an accessible access to the swimming area in addition to the handrail. I'm wondering if perhaps a full accessibility assessment should be conducted and not target one specific item where I think perhaps in doing so and not looking at the overall picture of the accessibility town is somewhat vulnerable under Title II of the PDA that you may actually find that you're compelled to go a step further. In fact, you may already be there because the town is managing a public swimming area. I have a little experience in that as a formal ADA coordinate from here. Thank you. Okay, there was a hand up in the middle, on the right. Hi, Pam DeAndre again. Yeah, not that I don't support this, I do, but I don't think this is the appropriate place for it. And I agree with, I think it was Tom, that we're gonna make something ADA accessible and really should make sure we're doing due diligence on it and then it could be maybe proposed as part of next year's budget or something like that. Just doesn't seem appropriate with the nonprofit requests. Plus, it wasn't orange at all. So I know it's just 4,000 and it protects hair, not a lot, but I just don't think this is the right place for it. Good morning, I'm Fletcher Dean from East Calis and looking at the list, I think these are all nonprofit organizations and it sounds like the town owns the swim area. So again, I fully support the intention of it, but I don't think this is the appropriate place either. Perhaps something could be created out of the town's discretionary budget for this year and the study committee sounds like a great idea to ensure accessibility for other public spaces in town. Okay, we've got a hand in the middle. Jan, I'll set the planning. I'm gonna suggest that the town issue a application for a permit to put in the railings and maybe an ADA grant. You can always get a cost estimate, but let's do it through official channels where you're applying for a permit to do something relative to a town owned thing and the only thing, the issue is, it prevents liability issues. So it's an important thing and I would say follow the process that we have in place. Tom, and then we'll go to Matt. Matt. I'm sorry, just add one more thing. On that list of nonprofits is the Vermont Center for Independent Living and you can start there, ask them one of their disability settlers to just do a site visit and give you an idea where to go and what grants might be available. And then Barry. I just, to give a little bit of a history there, there was proposals when they swimmer it was originally put in to put a parking space down closer to Don Heises and actually have a boardwalk going out along the edge of the pond out to the swim area. So this has been proposed in the past and I'm not quite sure why it never, maybe with proper channels. But yeah, I think we should do more than just railings. We should be able to get accessible for people with low chairs and other accessibility issues and it might cost a little bit more. But again, I think the new select board should take this up and we should actually have a planning process. Thank you. I'd like to make a suggestion if you could get a friendly amendment. We could put some money in maybe 4,000 isn't enough. We could put it added to the Vermont Center for Independent Living. They do have the ability to both do assessment, look for grants and also use this money to match something. And maybe we raised it to say $7,000 and added it to BCILs with the instructions that this be used. I know they would honor that having been associated with the past. So it's a thought. I think it definitely needs to be done. It needs to be a process, but this way there's money to start that and back it up. So I'd like to make that as an amendment to the amendment. I think there's a... Okay, an amendment made to the amendment to add $3,000 so that BCIL could do it in this sensibility. $7,000 total to add. Yes, to add $3,000 on top of the floor that is the original amendment. Yes, sir. Thank you, John. Thank you, East Calus. Sorry, four and a more. We need a second for that. We have a second. We do have a second. Maybe this is a point of information. I think Barry's amendment is to take the $4,000 proposed, add $3,000 to it and put the whole thing to BCIL. Just so we're really clear when we get to a vote. Am I correct, Barry? Okay, thanks. Thank you. Here, John, East Calus. I am the deputy director of this month's Out of Pre-Independent Living and I also do head up our community access program and this is exactly the kind of thing that we do and I've been doing this for a lot of towns. We have a team of four that travel all over the state and do these kinds of assessments. So in case if we wondered if we have the capacity to do that, we do. Further discussion on the amendment to the amendment needed. It's coming, it's on its way, be patient. Just a point of information from the town have an 88 committee in the 90s, late 80s and early 90s and one of the recommendations is to do this access to Curtis Pond. At the time, there's a flat space. At that time, I'm not sure that town owned the land. It was a land trust and it's a well. And so it never happened. There was a parking area and a ramp that was to go to the swim area. And so it could be still explored again but I can tell you that it was looked at 30 years ago. Anyway, just some history. Thank you. Yes, Linda? I'm just thinking if there was a committee, maybe I would like not just to hand it over to the Center for Independent Living and have a committee from the town that works with it that can steer with it because things get lost so easily. And evidently, we've talked about this for a year. It comes in intervals and then it's gotten lost. So how does it really happen? And it doesn't get caught in the process. And so if we're gonna go ahead with that idea, I would like something from the town to work with it or a committee that's going to say, okay, this is what we want. How are you doing? Are you doing that? Instead of just letting it go because it's a good thing just to pass on. I'm for more doing it as soon as possible. Barry, could I suggest that your amendment to the amendment include the town committee and the select board would work with VCIL on the arrangements for the disbursement of these funds? Definitely, the only reason I say just with VCIL is it because it's more appropriate for the money to be placed there and then, yes. Is that acceptable to you, Linda? Is that? I don't really understand. I get what I see. It would go out of the town. I mean, I understand that it needs to have an assessment. Definitely, but I don't understand why it would just be locked into the center for independent living. I don't quite understand that. I mean, it's just that I don't understand it. Well, I do my best to try to explain at least my limited thinking, which is this would be guided by the select board who will appoint a committee and the funds would go to VCIL for a very specific purpose as you laid out and as others have asked to go wider than just the rails, but also to look at an accessibility assessment for the community and that will be guided by the town and whoever the select board appoints and that makes this absolutely relevant to this article because VCIL was already in the article. The 7,000 then also be to actually do something or would it just be made an assessment? I think that's gonna be determined by what the assessment tells you and what the committee that is appointed by the board brings back. So there's gonna be more process than you hope and you can vote against the amendment to the amendment. Okay, there's a hand up there. Betty Copeland, I think that I wanna follow her because I was at the select board meeting where she spoke about this and the construction and I think that amount of money was for the purpose of the actual installation and not for an assessment. So I'm not sure that this amendment is appropriate for her request. I don't think so. I think this is a different, a whole different amendment or budget item to consider. There's a hand up in the middle. I think the fellow in front of you hasn't spoken yet. Hi, there's Scott Robbins, East Calis. The proposed amendment value of $7,000 seems somewhat arbitrary to me. I understand that it was based on $4,000 as the price estimate from Linda that she received and then tacking on an additional free grant to do an assessment. Being that we do have the deputy director of ECIL here, I was curious as to what an assessment might cost the town and perhaps base any amended value on the cost to the town to run this assessment. Just to clarify, there is no assessment. I added the amount of money to BCIL because otherwise it's not appropriate to this section that we're voting on and it wouldn't get done and all the money will go. BCIL will not charge for coming in and doing that. It's the money will go for the actual material and labor costs and it might be grant funds so it may not even have to draw that much or if it does and it needs more, they can go to the select board and ask for more. There is no actual assessment. The term is not what's the intent of the amendment to amend. Andy, Andrew, again, just to follow up, so from what Peter said, BCIL can do these assessments and they do do these assessments. Not that BCIL doesn't need this money and it's not that I don't want to support them but if they can do the assessment then tell us how much it would cost for what we would need, then you could bring that to a vote and so we would know how much it would cost. That would be my suggestion and then we may need more than hand railings, we may, just to be an ADA compliant. I just don't think that we just throw 7,000 at because we don't know how much it's gonna cost for whatever assessment we would get. So that's my, I'm not comfortable with just voting on 7,000 dollars. I would like the assessment done, how much it costs when we vote on that, so. Okay, I recognize John and then Dinah. Yeah, John, Drew, Vankow, select board. So let's back up a few steps here if we could. Linda proposed this or made this motion because we were in error, our select board was approached by Linda long ago and asked that this be this $4,000 amount to be included in our budget and not to get all the details but we goofed and didn't make it in our budget but we were all in agreement that this was an appropriate expenditure. Folks, you know, there's a lot of gray out there in the audience. Look at your neighbor. We all are gonna need these facilities so that we can remain active and not be really housebound. Linda wants to go for a swim without breaking her neck. I support that. I don't think it's a reckless thing or huge risk for us to make the swimming area safer. I would suggest we not make things so complicated that we accept Linda's original proposal which is to build the structure, two railings, pinned to the granite steps to allow people to lean and to access an egress upon. It's that simple. Further assessment, I think that's a good idea and so if we were to add $3,000 to allow for an additional $3,000 to the floor to provide some funding where the Vermont Center for Independent Living to say, hey, you've got a couple of other things you might need. You might need a little more grading to allow wheelchair access or something that there would be money in a fund that the select board at their discretion could expand. That's my understanding of what Barry's motion was and combined with Linda's and I support that. I have to speak against a little bit of that. As a, I'm a former regional coordinator for the Agency of Human Services in St. John'sburg and in that position, I did a lot of, not a lot. I did some ADA compliance visits with professionals. It is really easy to screw this up. The requirements are very specific and they cost a lot of money, certainly far more than what we're all sitting here thinking of when we talk about $4,000. So I would suggest that we not proceed along the lines of the initial motion that Linda made. I gather that BCIL is a respected place and perhaps the place that does these kinds of design plans for towns in Vermont and do it right because otherwise, in addition to having to undo what you did and do it over correctly, you also risk getting hurt or getting stuck midway up or down a hill somewhere and it's just not the right thing to do. Thanks. Here's a hand, Paul. Paul Hammond still himself, guys. I used to have a boss, in fact, he's standing at the podium and he would like sometimes use the expression no good deed goes unpunished. And I think Linda is, you know, I seconded their motion and so of course, and I'm getting older. I may not go in Kurt's pond. I may not be allowed. But nonetheless, I like the idea. But I'm seeing how complicated this is getting.  I'm going to withdraw my second. Somebody else can go ahead and second it if they want, but I think this is way too complicated. And so I'm going to withdraw my second. Point of order here. Discussing the amendment to the amendment. Yeah, I'm not quite sure what to do. So I'm going to make an arbitrary decision. Will somebody replace Paul as the second or the initial amendment and a bunch of people are willing to do that? I don't understand why you're thinking that the person who made the assessment isn't someone who would really want to know what's the right code and everything. It's really hard to get somebody nowadays who's good. I mean, he's worked with up in Morrisville with the people who do the railings. I mean, he ended, we would get the codes, we would figure out the thing. It's just whether the town wants to do more and wait and go through the process. But I used to be the PR person for both rehab for years. And the Americans with Disabilities Act, I was the PR person for that for the state. And so I'm very aware of disabilities issues, but we're just assuming that whoever's been gotten is not a good person who wouldn't work with codes and different things like that. And that's very strange to me. So I just wanted to put that on. This person is legit and he definitely would do the codes. We don't have to do it this year, but I'm just saying that don't think that someone is poorer than they are in being their integrity. You have to be recognized. And so I've got a hand up here and then I'll come to you. Sam, you've got people on the microphone in the middle. Sam Bork in Maple Corner. Just to go back to the beginning, I don't think this is an appropriate motion to begin with. I read the article to say that the article calls to give money as listed below to the following organizations. I've heard a variety of conglomerations that sound what I heard most recently, like an attempt to make a sole source contract to a specific person that hasn't been named yet for money for a project that hasn't been designed yet. And so I think that I would echo other comments that the appropriate way to do this would is not through adding an amendment to move money possibly to BCIL for purposes that aren't BCIL purposes that would then be taken out for some unknown sole source construction contract that seems an inappropriate motion to have as part of a discussion of an article warmed to shall we support local, good organizations? Okay, and can we be recognized? Yeah, you have to be recognized. So we have a motion to call the question, which is not a debatable motion but takes two thirds and debate. So all those in favor of ending debate on the amendment to the amendment, please say aye. It was opposed. My year calls me that was two thirds. So we're gonna end debate. The question of the amendment to the amendment is whether we're gonna add $7,000 to this article bringing the total to $38,100 for the purpose of having the select board work with a committee and BCIL to figure out how to enhance access as described by Linda by putting in some rails or other necessary means at the Curtis Ponds swim area. If you're in favor of that, please say aye. Aye. If you're opposed, say nay. Nay. The nays appear to have it. The nays do have it, and we're back to the amendment. The amendment asks to add $4,000 to this article. And I think this is where it gets tricky. I ask because you really want it to go to the town and we've already voted on the town budget. And several people here have challenged the legitimacy of attaching that article, that amount to this article because this is an article about providing funding to nonprofits. Yes, sir. We could revisit the town budget and add this in town budget by motion. It's too late. We've moved on to the next article. Yes, you can. Two thirds of the vote, we can go back. This is not according to Robert's rules. You have Robert's rules in your back pocket, right? Once, John, I know it really well. Can I grab a microphone? Once an article has been approved and the next motion is stated, you can't go back to the previous. I believe that's correct. We need a microphone up here. I'm Rose Peltchup from Mighty Ridge. I happen to be at the select board meeting when Linda made this proposal to the select board and they instructed her to bring this up under this article. So she's following their directive. And I think that if someone doesn't agree or if you folks don't agree that it should be taken up under this article, I would definitely support this at the end of our town meeting. We have an article to conduct any other business to legally come before the town and we could put it there. I think that it's a first step, literally to help four steps. And I think we should support Linda's efforts in this and then continue on. But she was instructed to bring this up under this article. Yes, sir. That's a good question. And I think those of you who've challenged the idea that this can come up under this article, that's why I tried to see whether I could make Barry's motion work because VCIL is listed and we'd be debating how much to give them to support activities in our community. So there is a way I don't think to bring this up and I apologize to Linda if I've known about this in advance, which I didn't until today. I would have suggested it come up under the general budget. I would say that if we take this up under other business, we can't do anything that is binding. But as Charlotte pointed out, we have a $530,000 fund balance and my guess is the next select award. Figure out if they wanted to have a fine $4,000 out of that fund balance. Yes, there's a hand up here. James Daly, East Coast, I was just talking with Linda and Curtis Pond had a Curtis Pond Association couldn't we give this $4,000 directly to the Curtis Pond Foundation and they would qualify as a non for profit to put under this category? Probably could, so if Linda, that's your motion. I'm gonna suggest that that was your motion to appropriate $4,000 to the Curtis Pond Association to enhance accessibility and the person who seconded the motion agree with that. She does. Okay, and now there's a hand up. Cornelia Mary from South Calis. I'm not versing enough ADA law to know whether the town needs to be ADA compliant even with the handrails. And so that's my question. I feel like I'm voting on something I don't really understand the law well enough to know our obligation as a town and our liability under that law. So if there's any information related to that, it's of course, you know, I'm not against ADA law as a part of politics. I don't wanna see the town have to undo it that somebody already said. Yeah, I mean, I think if the town wants to do this to select next court to figure it out and my sense is there's people want access but Peter, you have a hand up and that's why I suggested taking this up under other business. And again, with a half million dollar fund balance even the closures. I'm here for me, so I'll just say yes, the town is legally obligated to make as the owner. The town is legally obligated to make it accessible. Donna's from Adamant. I would like to put it that we put the $4,000 to the Curtis Planned Association for handrails this year with the advisory that we form a committee to make Curtis Planned Area ADA compliant. But that would be an advisory for future and the $4,000 would go to Curtis Planned Association for the purpose of handrails this year. Okay, and we have the handing back. Sorry, I'm sure everybody's had enough of this conversation but that's our appropriate motion or amendment in my view or to document why it cannot be made accessible. Documentation is important for the town from a liability perspective. And you make challenges, there are a lack of access to a pond under the Civil Rights Act. That would be properly documented. So whether it be a wetland or steep grades or Corps of Engineers or A&R, whatever the case may be, you may not be able to meet all of the codes under the 2010 standards, so document it. Okay, I believe, are we ready for the question? We have another hand up in the back, the white sweater and then Doc. Fletcher Dean again from East Calus. I think this is a slippery slope when you add another organization to this list. I used to be on the committee that reviewed the requests that the town got. And the last time I was on a committee, it just seemed that every organization was automatically included for the next funding in this cycle, sometimes without even applying. So it just sort of becomes this repeating request. So if we do give to the non-profit Curtis Plum Association, we may want to stipulate that this is a one-time donation as opposed to just, next year we've got 28 organizations instead of 27. We can be recorded in the minutes. So Lou? Yes sir? Yes sir. We was stated by a member of this meeting that Robert's rules of order disallow amending previously voted on motions. Not true. I have Robert's rules in front of us. You can revisit the motion as long as the motion's not to undo the previous motion, but to amend the motion. For instance, here's an example I give. I moved to amend the motion passed this morning by striking the number 4,000 in the budget and inserting 8,000, that's to augment. So this would be augmenting if we were to go back and amend the original town budget. We could do that. So I just want folks to understand that's not true out there. Daniel. Daniel Peany, Labor Corner. I just wanted to point out that I think Donna's suggestion was an amendment that was not seconded. I'll volunteer to second it and call the question. I think I already ruled that that had become the motion. Great. And I called the question. Okay, the question has been called. That's not debatable. The question is whether to amend this article by adding $4,000 that would go to the Curtis Pond Dam Association, Curtis Pond Association for the purpose of providing handrails here to be done in conjunction with ADA compliance. Are you ready? And we can't debate that any further. It takes two thirds vote to end debate. All those in favor of ending debate, please say aye. Aye. Those opposed. The ayes appear to have it, the ayes do have it and we have ended debate and we're now going to the article which is to amend it by adding $4,000 for the Curtis Pond Association. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Those opposed. No. There's been a call for a division so Jeremy, I need your help on the board of civil authority. Jeremy, are you ready for me to have it or what are you doing? Okay. I just want to clarify what's going to happen here. We're going to have people show their cards on this question of amending this article by adding $4,000 for the Curtis Pond Association of a one-time purpose of adding a handrail to make it more accessible. So if you're in favor of adding the $4,000, you'd like to raise your orange card and hold it up. This is yes. Okay, you can put your hands down. If you're opposed to this article, raise your hands. You can put your hands down. Okay, the yeses are 80. The noes who were quite vocal were 30. So the amendment passes. So we're now ready for the main question. Is there any further discussion on this article? Which is to provide now 28 organizations, a total of $31,000, $35,100. Mack and then Rick. We used to have, all these nonprofits used to have a report that was in the town report, and I understand that the community wants it. But I'd like to see reports from these organizations, at least on the website, so that we can review what they're doing. I mean, $5,300 for the Montpelier Senior Center. And that's more than we're giving to Home Health and Hospices. I just think on the grade of scales of organizations, I'd like to support Home Health and Hospices much higher than Montpelier Senior Center. And I can't see giving them more money. I'm not gonna change the amounts that they're asking for because I know I've made that much about it. I don't know that much about it because there's no report. There's no report in the town report for what these organizations are doing, what they were asking the money for. And they're all good organizations. But I mean, I have different priorities than what the bag is that are in this right now. And I was on that committee with Dean, and I think it's good to have some time. People look at these and vet them a little bit. And I'd like to see, even if they're not pretty in the town report, at least on the town website, of what our nonprofits are doing. Thank you. Okay, Rick. Rick Winston from Right Up the Road. I'd like to thank you, Mac, for raising that point. I'm speaking on behalf of the Montpelier Senior Activity Center. And I will pass on to Sarah Lipton, the new director, to have a request of yours, which I think is also a very good idea. Like the Kellogg-Hurbury, the senior center took a really big hit during the pandemic. Had to be closed for a while. It was just reopening. Just started aggregate meals again, now offering 50, more than 50 classes on all kinds of subjects. And there are yoga and fitness groups. So I think the senior center has provided great service to the older populations of the supported towns. And you only have to be over 50 in order to be a member of the senior center. I really encourage everybody to check out their offerings, great classes, and drop in groups, whether you wanna speak Italian or join a new collage group. The senior center has only funded at 25% from the city of Montpelier. So with increased inflation and operating costs, there is only an increase of 7.7% over last year. So I urge everybody to support the Montpelier Senior Activity Center and come on in and see what we're doing. Is there any further discussion on this article or are we ready for the question? Okay, and the question is whether to appropriate 35,100 dollars for 27 organizations plus the Curtis Convist Association. All those in favor? Moderator? No, sir. Just had one question. The question is, the question I have is for the Old West Church of which I am a strong supporter I drive by it every day numerous times. I live on Old West Church Road, but their request has gone from 200 dollars to 1823. And I'm just, that makes me curious. Okay, we're gonna get Barbara, microphone. Hi Barbara McAndrew, I'm the president of the Old West Church Association and I was gonna speak to this, but given the length of the debate I held my tongue, but thank you Craig for bringing it up. 1823 is the number this year because we are celebrating our 200th anniversary. So we have made a one-time request of 18,1823. For this year, we will return to our normal $200 request that we ask from the town next year. So it's a one-time request and we hope you all will come out for our events. We're gonna start in June with a picnic and have music events and other activities through the year. So that's the reason for 1823. It's right on the sign, thank you. Okay, thank you. So I was in the midst of calling for a vote on all of the organizations, plus the Calis-Cardis Pond Association with a total of $35,100. All in favor please say aye. Aye. All those nine. The ayes appear to have it, the ayes do have it, and we're now done with article seven. And now we're gonna break from our morning for a few minutes, as we usually do, because our legislator is here. So I wanna welcome, as a freshman member and Calis's representative, Mark Mahaling. You can give us a lift. I wanna start by saying that it's really bizarre to be standing here instead of Janet Anselman. So he used to Janet, and I just want to start by saying thank you to Janet Ansel for too hard work, for hard work for two decades in the house. I think, personally, it's because of Janet that Vermont has the most progressive income tax structure. I think of almost any state, Janet, is that true? The second, we're second, fine. So thank you, Janet. We also have an unusual situation here where we have this group of people which departed myself from the slideboard, and the Secretary of State has issued a service award, an distinguished service award, to each of you. And so I'll start with Sharon from the Secretary of State, B&B, to you and Rick, and John for 18 years of service, Denise for at least 20 years of service. So I think there's some lack of clarity as to how many years Denise has served. I think it's so long she can't remember. So they put me on the Appropriations Committee, which is the committee, it's the money committee. It's supposedly powerful. I haven't seen the power yet, but I have seen every single entity of the state and a lot of individuals come and ask us for money. We have over a billion dollars of asks, and somehow in the next two weeks, I'm not sure how, we are going to produce a balanced budget and get it out. The challenge there is that we still have a lot of federal funds flowing into Vermont, and the problem is that you have to be very careful how you use them, because they're one cost. The federal funds are gonna dry up, so we have to use the federal funds for one time things like housing, or something like that, and not use it to create programs that we then have to continue to fund, even though the federal money's gone. So the goal is to look for long-term benefits, like housing, broadband, workforce training, clean energy, childcare, education, et cetera. I wanna briefly talk about our favorite subject, taxes. Remember that we do have an office of taxpayer advocate in Vermont, and we have a taxpayer clinic in Vermont, and Capstone runs, if your adjusted gross income is about 60,000 or less, you can get free tax help from Capstone. So anybody has questions about how to get to those, you should write me or call me. I have a website, if you can remember how to spell my name, which is not easy, you can get on my website, it's markmahale.com, and it's all there, and please write me or call me, and my home number's there, et cetera. There's a number in the state house, if you call the number in the state house, a page, a fifth grade page, it runs over to me within five minutes, so. I do, I just wanna touch on a few issues, but there's so many of them, and they're all dealt with in my website, and I'm happy, I'll be staying, so happy to talk to anybody afterwards. One of the major issues that we're hearing about is childcare. There just isn't enough. The mark, it's people, we've heard people who wanna have families, young families wanna move into the state and they can't, because they can't find good childcare, people are driving an hour or an hour and a half because they can't find childcare either near where they work or where they live. And in a way, the sort of free market has failed here. I mean, parents are paying too much, but childcare workers aren't earning a living wage. And so this is gonna involve, it's only one solution that's gonna involve substantial state funds, state subsidies so that we have childcare that's affordable and that we have childcare workers who can afford to stay into business. And I don't think that's gonna, it might come out this year, but I think it's a two-year bill. Remember, we have a two-year session, this is the first year of the session. What we will pass out, I think, I know we're gonna pass it out of the house, is a paid family leave bill. And the paid family leave will provide 100% of the state average wage to people who it provides for safe leave. That is, you can leave, you can't be fired for it. For health, substance abuse, childbirth, military-related reasons, bereavement, counseling, et cetera. And employers and employees will share the cost. I do not have the exact amount of the cost, but the estimates I've seen are much lower than I thought they would be. It's much cheaper than private insurance because so many people are gonna be covered and it spreads the cost. So I think that we're gonna come up with a bill that's deeper, fairer, and cheaper. I'm affordable to heat up. You are going to hear, if you have not already, you are going to hear a lot from the oil companies and fuel dealers, the fuel dealers paid, the propaganda, or the stuff you're getting in the mail is paid for by the oil companies. And I urge you to examine this very carefully. I personally support the Affordable Heat Act. If we get a chance to vote, it's come out of the Senate. If one comes up for a vote, I will be supporting it. And the reason is this. I don't think the bill is perfect, but I think the perfect is the enemy of the good. The fact is that oil went up two bucks a gallon. It is outrageously expensive. Oil companies have racked up enormous profits. We just have to get off the rolling coaster of paying, catch it, a billion dollars a year. Vermont pays a billion, that's B, that's in $1,000 million a year to the Petro States and oil companies for eating oil and gas. And it's just, we've got to get off of that. And this bill provides an off-ramp and it makes the oil companies share that cost. The thing that worries people is, well, let's find how much is it gonna cost me. And the problem there is if you use the benefits of the bill to retrofit your house, to weatherize, to install wood stove or to install other forms of clean heat, then it won't cost you anything. You'll save money. The question is, what about the rest of us who just either have done all that or haven't are not gonna do it? And it's gonna cost something. I personally don't think it's gonna cost anything like what the oil companies are saying it's gonna cost because they really, their goal is to do nothing. And I don't support that. The bill requires a look back so we're gonna find out how much it will cost before we finally approve it in the legislature. The last thing I just wanna mention and then you can go on my website, we can talk about here about other issues. But the last thing is, as you know, Prop 5 protecting reproductive rights passed in every single town in Vermont. So as you also know, there are quite a few states in the United States that have made all of these activities abortion, et cetera, illegal. And the concern is, will they sue our providers from their states? Or will they try to sue people who are patients of our providers from other states? Or harass them with lawsuits and request produce and all that kind of stuff. So we passed and I'm proud to have voted for a shield law that protects our providers and protects our patients. Whether they come from out of state or not, there are legal limits to what we can do. I wouldn't exactly advise a provider of abortions here to take a vacation in Florida, but there are limits to what we can do. And I think I'll stop there and let you go on with your meeting. You wanna take question or two? All right, sure. Okay, okay, anybody have a question in the back? Hi, Mark, Pam and Andrea here. I'm wondering if you can speak to age 258 since I know that you're on the committee and if people don't know about that, let them know what it is. Oh, I have not memorized yet. Okay, well, it's a change in our education spending to private schools, whether districts can pay for a kid to go to a private school. And this would, my kid is not in private school anymore and I tried to get the district to pay for them and I was not able to do that. And I think this is only gonna hurt families that have kids with special needs who's needs are not met in our public school and I feel like that needs to be fixed first before we say, oh, we're not gonna pay for it. There's only four schools in Vermont that meet the criteria of this bill. So if you care about kids with special needs, if you care about education, please look into this and make your voice known. Thank you. I think that's a fairly accurate description of the bill. The only thing I'll add to it is we're in a bind because of the United States Supreme Court and their decision that if a state gives any money, they decided that if a state gives any money to a private school, it has to give money to religious schools. And there are a number of religious schools in Vermont that have as their credo that homosexuality is bestiality and that, et cetera. I mean, really, they have religious beliefs that are completely at variance with the standards of our public institutions. So the question is, what are we gonna do about that? And there are only a certain number of approaches. We can talk about this more offline, but it's a bind. It's really a bind. I don't think anybody likes the options that are open to us. And that bill hasn't come to the floor. That bill is far from complete. Hey, Mark. So I'd just like to provide some clarification in regard to S5, that's the clean heat bill that's being now called the Affordable Heat Act. Clarification is that it's the Vermont Fuel Dealers Association that has sent out postcards and published ads on TV. It's not the big oil companies. These are the mom-and-pops all around the state that supply all of us with propane and heating oil, the stuff that gets us through the winter without freezing in our leaky old farmhouses and trailers. So that's one, two. So you know, in terms of big oil, the biggest oil distributor in Vermont is called Global. They're out of Burlington. They got those big tanks by the lake. They support this bill. And the reason is, the way it's constructed currently, it's gonna allow them the corner of the market with these clean heat credits. And it's going to squeeze the little independent fuel dealer out of business. That is their concern. The fuel dealers have gone on record. I watched all the testimony, have gone on record to say, we support a carbon surcharge. We just need to know what that number is so we can budget around it so we can do our business planning around it. So I think folks should know that. The other part is the reason, well, that it just passed the Senate's heading over to the House's bill. The bill that passed out of Senate natural resources didn't have a formal check back. They wanted to evade the governor's signature and allow basically a surcharge, a fee. It's a tax.  They wanted that to not be seen by the governor where he could launch a veto to stop it. But thankfully to Senator Kitchell, who's chair of Senate appropriations and the other appropriations committees members, they got an amendment to the bill, which was really shoved through Senate natural resources. And they're requiring that this legislation come back after the Public Utility Commission come up with a formulary for how much these surcharges are gonna be and whether that's workable, whether we'll be able to support the programs the bill intends, what the burden is gonna be for low and moderate income people. That check back is now on the bill. Let's hope it remains. And the bill is much improved, but you should know this is not big oil coming to Vermont and Lobby. It's not the Koch Brothers. It's our friends and neighbors who are just trying to stay in business and not be absorbed by this some big conglomerate. One last thing. The largest polluters in this state, the largest carbon that is in this state. Vermont Gas Systems, they helped write the bill. They're owned by Energy Year, which is a Canadian power provider. They own Green Mountain Power as well. Green Mountain Power supports it. They were in the back room kind of writing this bill. Vermont Gas did. And in the single largest stationary source of atmospheric carbon in Vermont, bar none, is Burlington Electric Department's Chip Kerner. They are adverts supporters. They all benefit supremely financially from this bill. This is an inside deal. They just want you to know. Mark doesn't know all of the details. He's based on appropriations, but I want to provide those clarifications. Thank you for those clarifications. I think John, my friend John and I will not agree on most of the stuff, so I won't belabor it. Other than to say, I do care a lot about the small dealers. Some of whom, the most thoughtful of whom, are in favor of this bill. But I am very concerned about their future because they're all going to die. And in West, we help them out. And I think this bill provides an off-ramp for a new business model for fuel dealers. An absent and new business model, they're not going to do well. But you heard, there are really substantial disagreements. Most environmental groups have signed on to this bill, not all of them. Anyway. We should move on. I'll stay. I'm happy to talk to people. Thank you, Mark. Okay, we are on article eight. In article eight asks, shall the voters authorize a reserve fund known as the Planning Commission Reserve Fund for the purpose of hiring consultants, matching funds for grants, and other expenses related to the town plan and zoning revisions. We'll get to giving them money, we'll be asked to give them money in the next article. Will somebody move this article? It's been moved and seconded by Sam and then Jan. Discussion. Okay, a microphone to Jan. Hi everybody, I'm Jan Olson, and I've been the Chair of the Planning Commission for too long. So this is my public service announcement. The Planning Commission is a five-chair committee. We have been operating with four and an empty vacancy for the last four and a half years while we have been working on making amendments to this land use zoning regulations. So please, we all need help on this Planning Commission. I would love it to get back up to seven as to my five. Oh, okay, sorry. I would love to get this committee back up to seven and not have five. So any in all help would be wonderful. Now, why did we ask to have this reserve fund to be established? And by the way, Planning Commission really asked for $5,000 in year one and we only got 2,500 so we're a little disappointed. But in any case, in 2024, our planning, our town plan has to be rewritten. And in that comes a lot of extra work and we really need some consultants to help us do group meetings within the town.  Are we destination recreation people? Are we gonna be bedroom community? What are we gonna be? And in order to figure that out and write it into a new and updated town plan, we'd like to have a lot of meetings that are group centered. Rural Vermont does a few things. There's another organization in Bethel that does things like placemaking. It all takes time and a group of four of us just don't have the capacity to do it. So we're asking for that help to have this fund, to hire consultants to help with that plan, as well as typographical work to help us do the, when we put out our new update to the zoning regulation, it has to be formatted a certain way. Town plan has to be formatted a certain way so we need that kind of help as well. So that's the reason why we are asking for reserve fund and I'd love to make it 5,000 instead of 2,500. Further discussion or are you ready for the question of whether to establish a reserve fund? All those in favor? Oh, sorry. I just wanted to offer my support for this. I think it's really important. I also think that on top of all of the other things that you listed, saving the school where we're currently standing and sitting is a part of that. And I think figuring out how we're gonna get housing for young families to be able to afford and live here and stay here is of critical importance. Thank you. Any other comment or discussion? If not, I think we're ready for particle eight. Shall the voters authorize a reserve fund known as the Planning Commission Reserve Fund for the purposes of hiring consultants, matching funds for grants and other expenses related to the town plan and zoning regulation revisions? All in favor? Please say aye. Aye. Opposed? The ayes appear to have it, the ayes do have it, and article eight passes. Article nine, shall the voters approve a $2,500 appropriation to the Planning Commission Reserve Fund if somebody would like to make that motion? They'll move. We have a second. Been moved to the seconded. Sam, working with the discussion. Questions? Yes, Daniel. Dan and Pini, I was just curious why this number isn't 5,000 instead of 2,500? Does somebody want to address that question, Sharon? The answer is simple and probably predictable. We had a number of budget requests that we didn't fully meet because we go, our budget process is to go through all the requests, put them all in there, see what the final number looks like, and especially look at it as a percentage of increase over the overall budget from the previous year. And if the number's too big, we go back and sharpen our pencil and reduce some of the numbers, and this is one of the ones that we chose to reduce. It's as simple as that. If people want it to be 5,000, I don't think we're opposed to that. It's just a question of how sharp our pencil needed to be. You have a hand up. Jordan Keyes, I guess I'd like to get a little more context. We have an idea of how much it costs the town to create the original town plan and maybe compare that to the cost of updating it. And I ask that because having spent a lot of time with the town plan and the town regs over the last four years, the town plan is critically important for informing how we change our regulations and adapt this town to needs. And right now, the information in the town plan, the quantitative information that we're using to guide these decisions is close to 20 years old, some of it even older than that. So the trend information that is included in the town plan is grossly out of game. And I think that funding, appropriately funding, any efforts to update that should be taken now. I mean, we're wrong the doorstep of having to update that plan and the quantitative information in there. And I'm curious what that number is and how close we are to covering the costs. Jan? Great question. And I don't know the answer to it. We did the last plan update in 2016. And at that point, the town plan was good for five years, but right before we got ours approved, the state moved it that your plan was good for eight years. So the demographic was based on the 2010 census. Anything new is gonna be on the 2020 census, probably. And how we all updated, no town plan our size. It's all, I don't know how much it cost. It's all volunteer, eh Jack? We all sat around and did a whole bunch of writing and put it together as best we could. The only thing I do wanna add to that, we did do a very strong agricultural chapter, which because I think some of us feel that our importance of how we survive any kind of economic collapse that might happen is gonna be in the sustainability of how we manage our agriculture and our food production. And that was one of the strongest chapters, which I personally like to keep seeing in it. I don't know, that's the only way I can answer your question. Okay, are you ready for the question? Yes, sir. Microphone's on its way. Come on, let's go. So you was one of them. Look out, take a seat.  That's about it for now. Jack, let's hope. Former Planning Commission chair and went through the last, I'd like to offer an amendment to raise it to 5,000. Okay, do we have a second? It moved and seconded, now continue, you can tell us why. When I heard Jan say that they're planning to go around and talk to that forum, that is desperately needed to get everyone's input. The last time, there was a certain group that really held up the process and almost monopolized it. And it was a rough road to hope. So the Planning Commission, coming up with another town plan, especially now with increased state requirements, it needs to be as inclusive as possible. And it's very, very challenging to write when you only have four people. I went through the agony. It was rough. So I support this, very, very much. Yep, you're one of the microphones. I was just gonna say that what you're implying with getting people involved will be very time-intensive and that's something we can't expect you to do. I mean, it will deeply require other people to recruit, recruit, recruit and gather people together in small groups and talk. And none of us wants to leave our houses, so it's gonna be intense. But we do need to do it and that's gonna require dollars from somebody who knows how to do it. And also somebody who knows how to run a meeting. Okay, so the question before you is whether to amend this article and add $2,500 for a total of $5,000. And Mac would like to make a comment. We're talking about trying to attract people here of affordability and one of the things that attracts people is low taxes and to continually increase our taxes is a disincentive for people to live here. That's why there's only old people here. Excuse me. Okay, yeah. Cindy Gardner-Morris, I was gonna say something similar. The tax rates, I believe in all the things that we're talking about, but I also appreciate that our select board has sharpened their pencils and made what they think are reasonable suggestions for different prices. So I'll be voting against that and I think $2,500 makes sense to me. I mean, I've got to balance the budget. My kids can't really afford to move back to Calis even though the family's property has been here since 1852. They can't really move back and afford to pay the taxes on their property. Is it true that part of this conversation would be about how to, I don't know enough about the project or the town plan, but is it true that part of the conversation is about how do we lure the young people to our town? I mean, if we don't have a real conversation about that, high taxes, low taxes, how do we become attractive and livable here for younger people? Is that part of this conversation? Good question. And his hand right behind you and then we'll go to the... If anyone looks at the town plan and the last one we did, there was a requirement that basically when the select board agreed to it, they committed to following through on certain things. I've never heard any report on how the select board has or has not followed through on the town plan requirements. And that would have addressed the question that was just previously asked because it does take into consideration economic development or growth or whatever. And it would be great to get a report from the select board item by item as to what they have or have not done. Is there a handing back? I can't be under. I said I wasn't gonna say anything else, but I just was curious if equity is part of the requirements of future town plans. I don't know if it is or not, but whether it is or not, I think it really needs to be part of our plan, not just to bring younger people here, but people of diverse backgrounds. And I think if we all think, oh yeah, we want equity, we need to put equity into action. So I would just put my two cents in there. I'd be supportive of whatever you need, but I would really want to see that as part of the process. Okay, and there's a hand right there. Phillip Lathamson County Road. Curious what the question is here. Are we talking about a partial plan for 2,500 and a full plan for 5,000? I don't want to pay anything for a partial plan. So what's the question about money? Jan, did you want to speak to that? I think Erica hit it on the head when to put group meetings together, takes time and it takes consultants for us. We are asking for the money to hire consultants to come help us make a plan that can include things like equity, health, age, whatever it is you want and that you want the plan to be. And we can't do it as volunteers, as poor people. We need the help. And 5,000 was the starter with the 2,500 additional each extra year. If we have a $500,000 fund balance, I don't think 2,500 put out from that is gonna hurt us at all, tax-wise. And up in front. Donna Finch, I'd like to point out this opening on the planning commission. That's just... Oh, tears. Are you ready for the question? Okay, and the question is whether to amend the article by increasing it from $2,500 to $5,000. All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Those opposed, say nay. Aye. The ayes appear to have it, the ayes do have it, the article has been amended and now we're on the basic question, shall the ten voters approve the $5,000 appropriation to the planning commission reserve fund? All in favor, please say aye. Aye. Those opposed, nay. Aye. The ayes appear to have it, the ayes do have it, and we're up to article 10. And some of us are getting hungrier. So you'll see how whether hunger beats debate or not. I understand. Well, we'll find out if we're halfway done or not. I understand. Shall the voters authorize payment of property taxes and two-week installments for the due date of the first installment on or before 4 p.m. On a date that falls not less than 30 days after the tax bills are mailed, but not earlier than September 1, 2023. And the due date of the second installment shall be on or before 4 p.m. On Wednesday, November 15, 2023. Somebody move this article. It's been moved by Sharon. Do we have a second? And we have a second discussion. Yes, Mack. And then Charlotte. Every year I ask, why can't these be quarterly payments?  Why can't we spread these out over a year? Other towns do this. It just seems unfair to working people to have to come up with a lot of money two months apart. It just seems like we could go to a quarterly payment system that would make it more fair. Thank you. I'm gonna vote against this. Okay, and then Charlotte. And then Barbara. Charlotte Hannah Bassett, again. I would just like to point out that our half million dollar surplus is more than a third of our spending. And yet the difference between the end of the month of the fiscal year, which is June 30th, and the time of the first infusion of taxes is only two months. So we're saving over one third of our spending to cover about one sixth of the year. And so I would like to recommend that the new select board consult with the trustees and public funds about cash management. Further discussion on your area of Barbara?  Yeah, thank you. Barbara Butler, North Calis. Well, I understand that it's concerned about two hefty payments only two months apart. You can make your tax payments any time throughout the year. You can put, you can pay 12 times during the year. Once a payment a month, we'll just apply it to the balance it's going to be due. So you don't feel obligated to two hefty payments two months apart. Pay it at your own rate and whatever is comfortable for your financial situation. Thank you. Okay, Jan? Yeah, to the point, we used to live in Underhill many years ago and they do quarterly payments. And I think the reason why they did quarterly payments was so that there was always infused money coming in that would cover the downtime between a fiscal year. And it might be appropriate to think about that. It helped me back at that time with the family to public, to monitor it on a quarterly basis. And I thought it was really a good idea. Further discussion or are we ready for the question? Karen? I don't know a lot about this. So I may perhaps I know enough to be dangerous, but the folks who have worked in the town office could speak if they were inclined to on the effort to put out taxes. I know it's a big project to put out the bill, but then especially to process the money as it comes in. And so twice a year or four times would be doubling the effort in the town office. And it's a lovely idea, but it's something for us to be aware of on the dovetailing earlier conversation about how hard it is to hire people. In fact, we don't really have people doing that work. Now it's being done by volunteers or augmenting the people who are already on staff. So I like the idea, but it's just something we have to be aware of as a resource that requires in our small town. Yes, Cindy. That point about costing more time to process the payments. What if the first payment came earlier in the year? So they were just two months apart, but they were more like five months apart. Is that a possibility? And who makes that decision? Should I make an amendment to that effect? That's up to you. I think I want to make an amendment to that effect next year after we find out more about this. Would anybody else like to work on this with me? You can talk to me at lunchtime. Okay. Yes, Barbara. I believe there are statutory requirements that we have to follow. So the grand list is closed, frozen, every year on April the 1st. It takes in the Lister's time to get tax bills ready. So typically that's about a three month process. So the earliest we can bail out tax bills is August. And I believe other people here are more knowledgeable than I. That, is it the state mandate that the last payment has to be by November 15th? Okay. There's something, Sharon, somebody, somebody might know this better than I. But there's a November 15th deadline by which tax payments need to be made. And I'm not sure where it's required for them or where I'm getting that information. Thank you Denise. Hopefully you can add to that. But there are statutory, we have to wait until the grand list is closed, frozen as of April 1st. It takes a few months to process from there and I'm gonna let Denise take it from there just to further explain. I think there is some kind of an education funding requirement. I think the November 15th date comes from that. But I am not 100% sure. So I do not wanna be quoted. But we should check that out. Yeah, there is something there. Janet, did you have a point of information on this question? Yes, there are state deadlines for when the money needs to go to the state. But the town's free to set any schedule that wants them when it collects them. Okay, sounds like there's some interest from some citizens in working with the new select board to review this issue. Are you ready for the question? Okay, and the question is, shall the voters authorize payment of property taxes in two equal installments? The due date of the first installment honored before 4 p.m. on a date that falls, not less than 30 days after the tax bills are mailed, but not earlier than September 1, 2023. And the due date of the second installment shall be honored before 4 p.m. on Wednesday, November 15, 2023. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? No. The ayes appear to have it. The ayes do have it with past article 10. Article 11 says, shall each property tax installment payment be made via one of the following options, by delivery to the Trevor, by 4 p.m. honored for the due dates that set forth an article 10, by U.S. Postal Service for Postal, honored for the due dates that set forth an article 10, or by credit card payment via the town website, by 4 p.m. honored for the due date that set forth an article 10. So moved by Denise, do we have a second? And the second to it, do we have discussion? Okay, good. All those in favor, paying my one of those three methods, I've just outlined, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? And article 11 passes. Denise, article 12, shall interest in the amount of half percent per month, or any part of a month be charged on unpaid taxes? Would somebody like to move this article? Denise has moved it, do we have a second? And Linda's second to it, discussion. Seeing none, I think we're ready. All those in favor of interest in the amount of a half percent a month on any part of a month, or any part of a month be charged on taxes, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Aye. The ayes appear to have it, the ayes do have it. Article 12 passes. Article 13, shall a delinquent tax penalty be set at three percent of the tax collected from each delinquent tax payer? Would somebody move this article? Sharon's moved it, do we have a second? Linda's keeping us moving along, thank you. Any discussion on this article? If not, all those in favor of article 13, please say aye. Aye. Those opposed, say nay. The ayes appear to have it, the ayes do have it, and article 13 passes. Article 14, shall the town appropriate 65,564 dollars to fund the operating expenses of the East Montpelier Fire Department to be paid in quarterly installments, starting July 1, 2023. I'm told we have a typo here, but let's get the article moved as it was warned. John's moved it, do we have a second? It's been moved and seconded, and we're now open for an amendment. John Brevant, there's an error in the printed town report. The actual number is 14, so the printed requested amount is 65,564 to the operating fund expenses of the East Montpelier Fire Department. The actual number that was to be printed should be 66,564, so $1,000 in total. And what is published. So I'd like to make that a friendly amendment or amendment. Okay, amendment is proposed to add $1,000 to this article. We're hoping for discussion. Yes, middle? Just an overall question. I added up all these requests in the fire department, so it's over a quarter of a million dollars, and I don't remember seeing such a, usually it's one at a time over a period of years, and I was wondering why all of a sudden, we were hit with a quarter of a million dollar commitment here. Is there anybody from, so the next bunch of articles are about emergency services and how we pay for them, and we can, I think we can open the floor for a discussion of where we are on that. Is there anybody from the fire department? Either fire department wants to speak to the articles or the ambulance service. Yes, sir? James, I'm on Woodbury Fire Department, most of the president of the department. Our biggest increase this year was due to inflation, like everybody else. We tried to do the same thing as what the select board does every year and sharpen our pencils to the best of our ability, and that's where our budget items come from. I believe for Calis, the total increase to the town of Calis on Woodbury's and for operating alone, for our operating budget was 4.1% this year. Sharon, please. I want to just offer the information that last year, I think it was separate, but previous years before that, a number of the emergency services budgets were included in the town budget, and beginning a year ago, we started breaking them out for greater transparency, so there may not be a quarter million more in money. It's just a little more visible. Any further discussion on this article or general questions about emergency services? Paul, we'll get your microphone. Thanks. Still Paul Hannon, I just have to express a little frustration. Many years ago, when I was on the select board, the ambulance service from Ismael to the year first came before us, and that was going to be a cash cow that actually was going to reduce our appropriation to the fire department, and it didn't, and I'm not going to vote for these. Who would possibly vote against the ambulance? You might need it, right, or the fire department. But anyway, it's just frustrating to park in back those many years to hear the cash cow now cost us $130,000. Yeah, and we have a hand up here, and then we'll... Hi, I'm Sage Kennedy. I'm from Central Calas. I want to let you know that before maybe last year, the Ismael Peeler fire department was included in our budget, all right? It was not a line item. Poor Woodbury fire department always has to come to our town meetings because they aren't included, and so it does seem overwhelming because there are five articles here when normally Ismael Peeler, I like that it's broken out and we do see it and can vote on them. I do want to say that Woodbury gets to our house at the same time as Ismael Peeler, maybe sooner. I always feel like what they ask for is pretty small. If you look up, if you add their three articles, $69,79, $86,000, $87,000. For how many EMS guys do you have on your group? Yeah, so they've got 10 total EMS people on Woodbury and they do a lot of medical calls. I just want to ask Paul to think about, I get that the Ismael Peeler's, there was going to be a cash cow. I do not feel like Woodbury should be thrown into that. The Ismael Peeler fire department is great and they are asking for $195,000 and that's a bit more. So that's my two cents. Yeah, you need a microphone up here, and those right here. Rose Pylchuk. I'm trying to say that my husband Greg has been a member of EMSD for between 30 and 35 years and I also want to acknowledge John Winston and I would offer for John to speak as well. I became involved in EMSD when my husband took over as the president a number of years ago. I sort of said, oh, well, I'll help, I'll come to your meetings, I'll take the minutes, I'll help you be organized. I think that was part of the marriage license that I didn't really realize I was saying that for, but I did. So I became involved in EMSD and I served proudly and when Greg was no longer the president, they said to me, Rose, you're doing a such a great job. Will you become our official administrative assistant? And I did that for six years, so I'm intimately familiar with EMSD and the operations and I can tell you we, every month when we generate the ambulance revenue, the board of directors reuse everything and then a certain segment goes into the capital reserve fund and out of those capital reserve funds, they have been able to finance the cost of new ambulances, new equipment, so on and so forth. And so there really is a whole new revenue stream that we're not seeing here. And I do see Albert Petrella has come. Albert is the chief of the EMSD Fire Department. So I would ask John and Albert to comment as well. Thank you. Yeah, so I'm Albert Petrella, I'm the chief now. We do the same thing you folks do. We try and sharpen our pencils, how cheap, how little, where can we cut corners to try and make a palatable budget for the taxpayers? But it is a challenge in today's economy. Volunteerism is dropping off big time. We don't add, if you look at a typical call, we're lucky if we can pull five people together. And we're trying to do this, realistically, if we pay people, can we get more to show up? Yes, I think we can, but then what happens to the tax bill? You know, the lion's share of our budget for East Montclair is salary for EMTs, $340,000 roughly. You deduct that from our request and you know, where do we buy fuel to put in trucks? Where do we, there's certain expenses that we have that we can't avoid, taxes and different things. So you start deducting, we don't have a lot of play money to do the things that we need to do. I did real quick math with my boss, Greg, this morning and I thought to myself, wow. I took Cal's share of the budget, fire and EMS for Woodbury and East Montclair together. And I took the 2020 census number and I divided it out. And it came to approximately 47 cents a day to provide ambulance and fire service for town Cal's. And if that number is challenging to you folks, I feel like as a volunteer, I'm in the wrong business. And I heard earlier, I heard Barry Bernstein talk about $25 an hour to get people to show up if you want to try and keep them. Our paramedics don't even make $25 an hour. Our EMTs are under 20. EMRs make less than that.  And then I hear people talk about the tax bill. I get it, I pay taxes. But at a certain point, and you can regionalize and privatize, that may help. But then you're delayed with time and response. Where's the ambulance coming from? Yeah, it only costs us 100 bucks. He's coming out early then, a year and an hour and a half. You know, we're struggling. It's a challenge. We went to Montclair yesterday over half an hour. Sorry, lost it. We went to Montclair. It took us about 20 minutes to put a crew together to go to Montclair to help them. We're faced with those challenges. And I don't really know how we fix it right now. That's all I can say at this point. I just feel like we provide a valuable service. We're like an insurance company. You pay us and you hope you never use it. But we also get our money from insurance. And so when we submit a bill for $400, what do you think the insurance company does? They don't give us $400. They give us $250 and say, make it work. So now we gotta cover the extras out of our money. What do you do? I don't know. Okay. Yes, we have a hand up on the right. And then I'm gonna see if we're ready for this first question. I don't know how many of you. I'm Mary Alice Profit. I live on Jack Hill Road. I'd love to see a show of hands. How many of you read the story that was in the news? I believe there was a BPR this week about how many seniors are calling ambulances in Vermont for help and they're not coming. Did anybody else read that story? That was a prime story, a headline this past week. And we're in a state of crisis throughout Vermont because we don't have enough emergency responders to get to these rural farmhouses to rescue people when you're having a heart attack or a stroke. So as a citizen of the palace, I don't think we wanna have anybody in this room or anybody who's not able to make it today who cannot have an emergency responder make it to their door when they need help. And so I don't think it's even a question of whether we should fund emergency services. We just have to do it. But the underlying question of cost has to do with the viability of our community, which is a lot bigger question. And it's the underlying issue that we're talking about when we are discussing putting aside reserves to have these bigger conversations about how do we function as a community? So $5,000 from the Planning Commission. It's related to everything. These are big picture conversations. So what I think we wanna do is we wanna be positive. We wanna encourage the people who are volunteering and working to provide emergency services. We wanna support them and we wanna make sure that they feel the dignity of knowing that their community appreciates all the years and years of service that they're giving to us. And we wanna fund them. And then when we get our new select board in and we have our energy to sit down as a community and discuss viability. How do we have enough human beings to live in our community to pay, to afford to be here? We need to remember this conversation. And it needs to be part of the bigger picture discussion. Thank you. Okay, I'd like to see if we're ready for Article 14, which there's an amendment. All right. I'm Betsy Kara, I live in North Calus. I had a medical episode right around Christmas and my husband called the East Montpelier influence directly. They came, it was, my problem was heart related and I was in a bad way for a short time. They came so fast. They took care of me and I probably wouldn't be standing here talking without their really fast assistance. I got generally good help. Wow. When they were needed, they came, God bless them. Okay, are we ready for Article 14 as an amendment for it? And the amendment increases the amount so these shall the town appropriate 66,564 dollars to fund the operating expenses the East Montpelier prior department to be paid in quarterly installments starting July 1, 2023. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Opposed? That article passes. Article 15 shall the town appropriate 130,300 dollars to fund the operating expenses of the East Montpelier Ambulance Service to be paid in quarterly installments starting July 1, 2023. That's been moved. We have a second. We have a second discussion. If you're seeing none, all those in favor of Article 15, which says shall the town appropriate 130,300 dollars to fund the operating expenses of the East Montpelier Ambulance Service to be paid in quarterly installments starting July 1, 2023. Please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Article 15 passes. Article 16 shall the town appropriate 17,850 dollars to the Woodbury volunteer prior department to be added to the truck replacement fund starting July 1, 2023. Would somebody move this article? It's been moved and seconded discussion. All those in favor of Article 16, which asks shall the town appropriate 17,850 dollars to the Woodbury volunteer prior department to truck replacement funds paying quarterly starting July 1, 2023. Please say aye. Aye. Opposed? That article to Article 16 passes. Article 17 shall the town appropriate 31,000 dollars to fund the capital replacement fund of the Woodbury fire department to be paid in full by January 1, 2024. Would somebody move this article? It's been moved and seconded discussion. Seeing none, if you're in favor of this article, which again reads shall the town appropriate 31,000 dollars to fund the capital replacement fund of the Woodbury volunteer fire department to be paid in full by January 1, 2024. Please say aye. Aye. Opposed? Article 17 passes. Article 18 shall the town appropriate the sum of 38,724 dollars and 36 cents to fund the upgrading expenses of the Woodbury volunteer fire department to be paid in quarterly installments of 9,681 dollars and 9 cents starting July 1, 2023. Please move that. Sam has seconded discussion. Seeing none, all those in favor of the appropriation of a 38,724, 36, the Woodbury volunteer fire department's operating expenses with quarterly payments of 9,680,109 starting July 1, 2023. Please say aye. Aye. Opposed? And Article 18 passes. Article 19. Who's hungry? Article 19 is to transact any other business that may legally come before the meeting. David, I'll get you a microphone. So, there is a free lunch. That is the good news, especially for the people in this chamber. But before we do that, historic tents partner has for over 20 years provided the lunch as a fundraiser this year. We're providing it to you free of charge, but we do have a jar over there and a bin for the food bank. So many of you may have brought funds or contributions for the food bank, and dropped them over by the tables over there. We also have a mathematician on our board who provided these statistics because we are giving this lunch in honor of public servants. In particular, the public servants who have served callus faithfully for many years have attended apparently 2,000 meetings, not including the countless special meetings that they have also attended. They receive an average of 300 emails per week, which means that each member of the select board has been receiving approximately 15,600 emails per year. Just to break that down further, John Brabant, who has served for 18 years, has received over 300,000 emails from all of you and the others. In testament to their service, the select board that is leaving us and to Jeremy Weiss, who is now added to an illustrious roster of outstanding town clerks, we want this lunch in service to these people. And I hope these statistics scare the daylights out of the coming select board and the newbies that are about to be elected to office. Let that be a caution to all of them as they enter into the ranks of the public servants that we honor today. Finally, I wanna say that a number of people have made it possible for us to give you a free lunch today. We have vegan and beef chili, courtesy of Joe's kitchen and Joe just opened a little cafe in Montpelier recently, so I hope you'll go to his new restaurant, his new cafe, because he gave us a great deal on the chili. Red Hen and Cabbage Cheese donated the threads. Sage Kennedy and Mel Emlin baked the cornbread. And you have both gluten-free and glutinous cornbread to choose from. And we have Red Hen bread as well. So we have all of this and our volunteers, as usual and Mel, of course, solicited pies. So we have the usual incredible pies, including Dot Naylor's maple town-meeting pie. So it was baked by Denise Wheeler, not Dot Naylor, but she passed the recipe along to many of us. So lunch is this way. We have a lunch room beyond and a lunch room in the rear. So that's it. Barry, do you have some resolutions to offer? Yeah. Thank you, David. Lunch and everything else. Reverendy, I don't know if I have to read them again, but I'll give them to the recorder. I grant resolutions for the town clerk and for the select board, and I'd like to offer them jointly to be voted on and approved by this body. Is that appropriate that way? That's appropriate. So these are essentially, anybody who wasn't here early, Barry, Barry, Reverendy. Yeah, every business. They're resolutions of thanks and appreciation for both Chairman's service and for the select board, which is put in collectively something like 15 years of service to the community. So we have a second. Second. Seconded to adopt these resolutions. Any further discussion? Thank you all so much. All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Anybody opposed?  Do I stand up? Let's say thanks on my side.