Anyway Hello, everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always Is well, I mean, let's see. I've called you one of my more Tarks before So that's already in the tank But instead I'm just gonna say probably my own personal graveyard. It's Tom. What's up, buddy? I Will indeed bury you yes Also joining us this week on the show From from the other side of the world through the magic of the internet very happy to have him back on it's the coach AOS coach. What's up, brother? Get a get a how are we all legends? It is Thursday, but it is also Warhammer Wednesday. That's right. Yes. Yes indeed So we're gonna talk about how we what we think would fix Legion's of the gosh how we do that and what we think the new death release that's coming might Do to that? There we go. That all made sense somehow those were all words that were roughly strung together into a sentence So it seems fine Okay 2021 it's All of our problems are solved a hundred percent Happy new year everybody. Hope you've had a good new year so far wherever you are and You know, we're gonna We're gonna go through the death stuff tonight We're gonna have a good time it's gonna be a little bit of tin foily hat a little bit of getting out the the scalpel and going to work on this aging and arguably unfun army book So like one of the oldest books It is it is one of the oldest books. Yes It's certainly the one that's aged the most that's exactly what I was gonna say I think it is held up the least of all of the the book. Yeah, it's so true Which is interesting for reasons we'll talk about later on but first the news so Tom take us through it Yeah, so news rumor engine. Yeah, it's a 40k thing. It's probably a new jump pack or orc. So cool beans next Um So they Vince they heard your cries at GW. Yes, and they said, you know what we need We need a new night quester model. That's right. That's right After it got rated as one of the 10 worst war scrolls in the game by me A model with an average damage of one or less And no actual purpose in the army They decided to give us another variant of it. Will this one have its own rules? Will it have its own unique points? Probably not But you know what I'm there we go. You know what I'm excited about the new bulgur sculpt on the model. Yeah It's okay. I was finally getting a new model. Yes So glad for those those beasts. I was that that was what we call low hanging fruit Tom And that ripe apple was ready to be picked So, yeah, I mean whatever I don't like this guy Anthony, what do you think of this guy? It's another stormcast champion Like I like them taking wrong they're cool But I would love to see something else other than night horn and other they did that once they gave a night Did and then they quickly kind of retconned that and made it not legal And then obviously we've kind of like like I've still allowed that at tournaments at times But let's give some love to some other factions. Yeah, I have mine right over there. I love him. He's great Sure, my knight haunt one. I mean what I would say is this I like him He's I like him more than some of the other stormcast models. We've seen And I don't know man. There's some really awesome Like no, I agree. I agree. There's been some neat ones, but I do I like this one honestly And I don't know what about it. I think it's just like this one. There's movement in this one And what I mean by that is it like a lot of them are just standing and he is just standing But it feels like he's moving forward Well, he's in the traditional pose of threat that they model things in when they don't want to make them to action-packed Let us say he's forward his his his forehead is down and he's looking up, right? Which is generally like this It's the angry look, right? Yeah, and I mean obviously he's he's his weight is on the front foot right There's all sorts of things about and his his other his opposing arm is in a raised position like a Muscles active position because he has to be actively holding that thing up At any rate, I don't like his mo hair cut Fine like heads are reswappable And this will probably come with a head swap like most of them come with a helm on helm offer sometimes they do We do we do have the greatest weapon known to man coming with it the axe hammer. Sure knife wrench Okay, sure who needs a spork when we got an axe hammer an axe hammer. I mean it's pretty awesome That's what I'll say. I'm excited about it and in fact like I can't be I can't wait to have one of these next month Because my store opening is like on my birthday, which is next month So I'm super excited that I'm gonna pick up some of these sure I I liked when they did the specialization liberator I thought she was super cool just because I like models like that where it's just one amongst the army that you can Kind of yeah into an existing unit like I understand that then you're like taking some regular liberator and throwing it in the trash or whatever But like who cares right it's it's still it makes your unit look really cool and stand out and something different Designates one unit from another you can be like oh well, you know because you might they might all be painted the same And this is the problem with like two units of ten liberators get near each other You're like wait, which one's which well, you know, you can just be like put her on the end and boom That's she's aligned the one with her. Yeah, but anyways anyways Yeah, he's so he's coming to store birthdays near you Yeah, you know what I wish is that there were two models First for AOS and two models for 40k that they would do this with sure one being like Your storm cast or your space Marine because that's always gonna be there and then the the other being another army Yeah, sure sure and they can rotate through the secondary armies Yeah, right like I don't care that they do storm cast all the time. That's great. I would just love like Random other models. Yeah, sure some special edition bestigore or a special edition Like a really cool look in storm vermin like hey, how about really throw a little love over there?  We're gonna do some night haunt now And then they didn't sell well. I fear that that's what right All the way down now, but yeah We made that mistake not again. Yeah, I'm cast all the way. Yep So so that dropped and I like him him her they But it looks great Come on that actually that actually might be a worthy call out just the pronouns as well in the text so I know a lot of people have been happy about that so Obviously be talking legion and a gas and you know, we could talk about a whole bunch of things But it was certainly interesting that the language that they used for the model. So kudos Sure. Yeah, that's cool. I didn't catch that. That's cool Well, it's interesting because they did masculine for the first half of the paragraph and then plural for the second half and I was like Yeah, okay. Yeah But you're right. You're right. So anyways, I like the model I and it will be added to my collection with all the other storm cast. I'm not painting so Other rules or other things the new white dwarf. We found the sons of behemoth article. That's coming out Isn't new rules. Sorry gentlemen, I know both of you were super stoked for that But salvation was on the horizon and but no that oasis was but a mirage Then how about you talk about what's actually in the article? It's it's their rules of engagement thing where they just interview the designer about so tell us about how you made this brilliant army Well, it's super awesome. See here's what I did and it's like look, I'm you know, no disrespect of designers It's tough job. I never blame the designer again The problem is not the design the problem is the development yada yada yada. I've gone on about it It's a process problem not a people problem. I stand behind that But you know exactly what I said like on this show and in multiple other shows Including coaches, you know, I said that the problem with this army is very simple They started with the babies are 10 bigs or 20 That's how they're gonna play the objective game and every bad decision cascaded from that and they open up the article saying Well, the first thing we had to do was figure out a make-and-play the objective game And we decided that babies would count as 10 and the big ones would count as 20 and then we went from there It's right there in the text saying exactly what I said So yep, you made one wrong decision at the beginning You never stop to reconsider because you didn't have a formal development process to go. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Whoa This is off the rails. We need to take this back to formula and unwind all this Okay, and Instead we got the book we got instead of an interesting book Trigga Yes Got your giants be happy. I am happy. I just played him again this weekend and won my game like whatever, you know My my complaint has never been competitiveness.  It's a boring one-dimensional and steep book You can I was hoping that I was hoping that the white dwarf would bring a little bit of additional layers or submit ideas or something even like a alternate tribe or Some type of battalion that was ridiculous, but still a battalion Missed another missed opportunity, but hey, you know, it didn't say it was a celestial tome So, you know, we probably probably got a little bit ahead of ourselves when we saw the information and then Realize it wasn't what it was gonna be. I think we had a good run We had we had spider faying troggs and squigs and I think we know as soon as we saw another destruction We're like, okay sweet Probably wouldn't be in broken realms. This is their way to incorporate that so who knows maybe there's another one Coming in a white dwarf, but I would have loved a little bit of more Yep, I can't wait till they adjust all the Giants like ten points So so the change is now I can buy a command point and all the versions of the army. Won't that be an exciting change? Look out Okay, cool. Anyways enough about Giants. That's not what this show is about We did a show With is there is this huge reveal on the first? Yes and We weren't wrong No, it was it was great I hope you've all watched the New Year's prediction show we did on Saturday But what I want to talk about the reason I put this in the news first of all, they were all obviously awesome I'm very excited about all this stuff. I think everything we think everything's super cool Like very excited for which hunter. Is it an order an order? Who knows? There's some kind of cool skeleton guy with a shield yadda yadda yadda lots of needs or flesh column Could be a flesh column could be a flesh column could be lots things But what I want to know is coach. What do you think brother? I want to be again I didn't get a really chance to talk to you about it. What did you think of all the reveals the tea? The the teasers were quite cool actually the first one that kind of stood out to me was Monkey magic monkey magic the flying clouds. So anyone who is older than 10 probably remembers monkey magic the amazing dubbed over television show at least I had it in Australia as a kid and Imagine there's gonna be an alpha a mage flying on that cloud like monkey casting lots of air spells There's some other cool things. I very curious to see so it's it's funny seeing your predictions come to life Yeah, it's great like for me the slannest stuff the the luminous stuff. It means I got another luminous show coming and Potentially which hunter or I know there was some debate whether it's Lord of the Rings or some type of it's not Lord of the Rings Put that away. No, but there was some days like some You know when the reveals came up on Twitter I remember seeing a lot of people or a few people jumped on saying there's not enough detail It doesn't look like it's a sigma axe It looks more plain towards a lot of the rings and there's some discussion. I'm I'm on the fence. It's still sigma Whether it's order of a zeer whether it's winter which hunter chaos hunter some expansion to cities It looks human as to me. So I'm Really excited especially as an owner of a hundred and forty flagellants It's exciting Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's a lot of flagellants more than probably anybody should own but it's a lot And I hope you have some way to use them that actually it makes sense So fingers crossed look it's as easy as a new city That's like the lowest level and that's so easy like three new kits and a new city with some restrictions and Bing bang boom Like cities can expand forever and without end Well, we've seen such great expansions of cities in the soulbound narrative the RPG and just Understanding bright spear and understanding some of the other cities in actually so that's low-hanging fruit at minimum let alone developing You know cities 2.0 Yeah, I mean if you just look in The basic narrative of the like the sort of book where some of the things where they talk about the maps are certainly in soulbound There's so many other human cities beyond like the seven cities and some of them are really really awesome And I would love it if at any point in time you just threw a dart at one of those maps But that dart should land on a DASA. Just let me just start there and say that that's this is what we want If I don't get my witch hunters, then I want my sweet warrior women with lion pelts and massive greatswords Because a DASA is awesome. So anyways Yeah, I Agree time will tell but yeah excited about that go back and watch show if you want to see as Tom and I ramble about it for an hour So it's interesting because I missed the prediction show because I was on another show at the time And I caught up to it just after the reveal So I woke up saw the reveals and then made breakfast and watched your show And it was awesome to see just what you guys predicted what you didn't quite get right or what hasn't come yet And it's just it's a cool parallel. It's a very cool parallel Yeah, it was a rare opportunity for us to make predictions and then immediately be partially proven right or wrong You know like normally we have to wait months. So that's good All right, yeah back to you buddy. This is your part now you talk Yeah Model the year absolutely Model of the year the voting is in and guess what a OS which I was just saying in the notes It just says we lost to get or something like that or we didn't even make the top three I don't remember the notes. Yep. Well, we didn't make the top three and coach You started a dialogue about this all right on on to it. I did I I started a dialogue on the model of the year It was interesting So I put out a tweet literally straight after I saw model of the year and I wasn't having a win About 40k winning it again. In fact 40k taking first second and third and I wanted to understand What drove the winners what drove people's votes? but more importantly, what would it take for Sigma to be ranked in the top three and And you know some people, you know misconstrued what I said because I wasn't having a winch that 40k What if this year in fact, I think they they had so many great models this year and Sigma probably didn't have as many So 2020 I think was definitely the year for 40k. I mean, I mean, Teclos wasn't bringing it home No, no Because that was Teclos was so divided when Teclos was first revealed But when you but then when you reflect to you look at previously is you know, I think the case for me was special K catacross I looked at what the previous year was and I think it was a badden and I'm like come on man's catacross kicks A crap out of the badden but then kind of having a conversation with people and understanding what drove it It kind of made me realize it wasn't just the model There's so much nostalgia, but also the size of the community which obviously plays its part, but it made me wonder It's made me wonder Will we ever win a model of the year knowing that Knowing that nostalgia and the size of the community is behind the 40k And is it is it time that we need to break these up much like armies on parade where you've got best 40k best Sigma Maybe there's a best overall, but at least throw the dog a bone and appoint a bloodball model and a Sigma model in this competition Well, it's deeply insulting that we didn't even make the top three. Let me just start there Okay, like that and and that they threw the pity party with us of the mega-gargants and the Techless come on getting on really mention and not the light of authoritarian first off Which is we all know the the model of that range like let's come on now I refuse to believe I mean, I guess it's possible, but like those were just like hey Here's some stuff. We also thought was cool. They didn't say anything about the votes, right that those other ones got So like it's hard. Let me say this way. It's very hard for me to believe that The tech list beat out the light of authoritarian, but who knows I did think it was funny in the follow-up article Where they talked about the releases. They did mention the mind-stealer sphere ranks, which I took as a Which I took as when it wasn't just voting. It was like here's the stuff We like most from this year kind of thing, right? So I thought that was cool that they mentioned the cat but like yes, this was a weaker year for us but at the same time My favorite 40k model of the year honestly wasn't even in the mix Wasn't even in the top three, which was sasrack or services rack or how do you say his name the silent king? I gotta think that sweet is all get out with his like that's a that's a cool cool model But like the triumph of st. Catherine is fine The c-tan the shard of the void dragon again. Yeah, okay, like he's cool. I guess he's fine and I Look real talk. I don't like gaza ghoul. I Don't think like I've never liked him. I think he doesn't I don't like the model. I think he's over designed That's the bottom line It's it's there's too much going on there and I don't find the model compelling so That's a personal opinion if you happen to love gaza ghoul then that's fine, but I was always Getting killed by orcs So I was more of a commisari Eric a man myself But I've still got crowds we got crab claw man Yarrick. Mm-hmm. He's so great old school. I'll still like two-dimensional like flat guy. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, it was it was interesting for me because I did some before I put out that tweet I put a bit of research together and went right well who won those last five years and Had a look at some of those models and it's hard to it's hard to compare You know, I think at minimum special K probably should have been up there in a previous year Marathi probably should be up there in a previous year I think unfortunately for us a lot of our great models came at the end times, you know, I'm seeing the chat Yeah, talk about Archeon talk about in the gash talk about Archeon didn't come in Archeon didn't come in End times Archeon came in the December after End times. Yeah, he definitely yeah, he the they got the He was with the air return blood, but right they got the blood thursers with end times No, the way I was thinking was just like the net of models like we had a lot of cool models Yeah, yeah previously that that also had that nostalgia part that way that has been driving the 40k victory that All of our nostalgia models, you know, Tyrion probably is our next one or maybe Malekith Malarian that we don't have One that has the the popular vote with the nostalgia with the design Which seems to be the combination that is driving the miniature of the year forward. Sure. And yes, Martin Orlando's just real quick here Yeah, Martin said I'm surprised people take it so seriously. It's just it's just a Marketing thing. Yes, of course it is. Of course it is a marketing thing. Yeah Absolutely, uh, but I'm with it. I just want to see us Take a year because I happen to think we've got to better months But honestly my answer coach is no we can never win as long as it's combined It doesn't matter. You could have the coolest thing we get beat by a by a primaries lieutenant Right, but yes, yes simply because it's a numbers issue The way that it currently is is they just have more votes that they're throwing into the pool Sure, like and we won't we won't our best hope is for some kind of accidental runoff win Because like there's just like there's four incredibly awesome 40k models that get here's our best case scenario There's like four awesome 40k models all just equally mind-blowingly awesome Okay, but the keeper. Hold on. But there's only one Awesome aos model so we can all pile on you see what I'm saying like that draws the majority of the vote Meanwhile, they're over there splitting all their votes. We've got it. We got to win Like it's a main voting situation before they used a ranked choice. That's how we got to win here I feel really uncomfortable talking about voting right now, but what I will say is that uh For the selenash year did the keeper of secrets make final top three? I don't remember. I'd have to go look. I I legit it was last year. It's or not last year. Sorry. It was 2019 Was it okay? Yeah, okay Um, because like I could have sworn that she I thought she made top three. I do not know. I'd have to go look Yeah In my research when I was looking at the articles they only kind of made that the top five Sorry, the top the top winners really easy to find I struggled a little bit to find the others, right? Well, I was just gonna say it's like our hope is greater demons anything that crosses the divide sure sure sure Yes We call that that's ours. It doesn't matter that it can use it over there. That's not real There's no guns on that that one belongs to us.  It's not a real army name. Boom. Gotcha. Take that cast towards your fake army You're gone off the forge world site So, uh, yeah the trick here being that depending on where you are in the world There may be more or less of the army still available Okay, because right obviously these things are there's like some Regionality to it for the major regions If you have forge world stuff kept in your country like we do here in the us or In australia has a forge world distribution hub. I believe so whatever you can have different stuff available in different places Point is all the doors is gone Now the question and by the way, this is not like temporarily out of stock The question it says like, you know by this has gone forever no longer Well, they are no longer available and people have contacted forge world confirming and they said absolutely they those models have been retired Correct. So here's the question One there are two options here Okay Uh, okay, australia gets it from the uk cool Um, I couldn't remember. I mean we have I know that the us has their own for I was gonna yeah I was gonna jump in because last night when I heard the rumors Uh, it wasn't true in australia at least There was only like one or two models that were out. I woke up this morning and now three quarters of the range is gone So maybe it's just an updating system on the the various inventories Yes, and the key is people have contacted them and they've said these models are retired like we've gotten the confirmation. This isn't like a This isn't a somebody's inferring from something. This has been these are gone They are no longer here and honestly Look real talk.  Um I say that to say it shouldn't be there if there are any If there are any models on the forge world line that you still want I would buy them now because they will not be there much longer Within the within the broad scheme of things. It's a lot of those stuff can stay in production for another six months I would be surprised if if anything on aos is there by the end of the year Yeah, with the exception of maybe the corn dragon I Knows Like I don't know Like the reason I say that now. Look, I'm not trying to like yuck anybody's young. Okay um The the issue with the forge world age of sigmar stuff is it's just not currently relevant Or like they clearly don't care about keeping it with interesting rules if you've already got it cool You can have it like there's nobody doing the rules. There's nobody working to keep this stuff current Okay, right? They they're not taken into account as part of the battle terms They're not part of the discussion in the same way They're just these weird hang-ons to a couple of armies and a big group of monsters that have no place or home in the game anymore They're like relics of a previous time that for some reason are still just sticking around because they're stock or something like none of these things are you know relevant Really relevant or part of the armies in check probably the two closest to like actually being Theoretically part of their armies are the warp gnaw vermin lord who generally gets pointed with arrest and the the The rock monster of gorka morca the rogue. I the rogue I would argue I would argue that another one that I think is relevant. I think that the The alternative sculpt for the For the loon boss on squig on giant squig is good Like I like that one better than the than the The one that's in the actual store Again, that's not needed. He's just said that you just said the magic words All right The colossal squig is actually a viable like a real part That like of the squig thing that has real synergy and actually like shows up on tables It's not in the battalions though. Um as as an owner of two colossal squigs However, as well, I'd say the mongol as well Coming in from knighthood and in legion of blood is a good little shout. So Um That you're right like when I when I look at forge world and I love forge world I I'm an I have armies that have forge world models in them and supported But when I look at, you know Vince and I were talking about this on my sons of behemoth show where we're like You know, is there a place for the the bone grinder gargant and I think the answer now is no there's no longer requirement When I look at most of the armies now, there's there's a subtle replacement With my gits they've pointed out the the rogue idol. So I can't bring it into my gits army anymore But the colossal squig but then I looked at my new white dwarf rules for the jaws of morc And there is no synergy other than the keyword squig. I can't put them any of the but the cool battalion. So I I I I want them to integrate them properly as vince is saying Or just to remove them like it's frustrating as an army player to like Not get the full synergies that I really want for such expensive models Yeah, two so two things I'll say one people are really defending the troll hag. Okay, fine Sorry, yeah Yeah, why could we forget the trove princess? Yeah, because I don't think she's that good. But anyways, um Yeah, there you go. Sorry dropping hot bombs here Uh, no crazy horse. The dreadsorian is not good It is in fact quite bad and anything that's on a base that required that isn't even printed should be retired from the game To forge role models aren't good Like i'ma drop some other i'ma drop some hard truths here. This is hard truth time. They're not good models They're bad models as a matter of fact Uh, which you like if you go by anybody else's current casting in resin You can get beautiful crisp incredible casts in resin that are gorgeous Perfect don't have pits and gaps and weird triangle chunks and every other nonsense thing that those still have They're like they're I don't know what their resin process is or why it's so bad Why it's not up to modern standards gw's plastic standards are the best in the world. They are the industry gold standard They are what everybody else compares against okay Their forge world models have very bad quality control They are like go buy a good resin bust from from some maker or a 75 millimeter module model from terrible kids stuff Or big child creatives or somebody like that and really look at the quality of that resin print It is on the same level or just about there of any plastic sculpt you can give from gw. It's incredible. Its detail is sharp It's perfect. It's clean. It doesn't have pits and things like that It's fantastic everything i've ever gotten from forge role and i own quite a few forge role models despite what i'm saying, okay has been a freaking nightmare And there's just no reason for it So like make better models the the fact that they're also higher priced generally like they're talking about expensive boutique stuff Right that is at a lower quality than the than the plastics you're producing. It makes no sense If you like if if if we're going to do this like I assume forge role is just clear in space to make room for the Old world which they're going to have to start ramping up for in two years, right? Yeah So like fine Uh Yes, as crazy or said I can print resin models at my house that are crisper I don't disagree if you've got like a high end resin 3d printer. You can probably beat their quality. That shouldn't be happening Okay, so like Like I use the term forge world skin For a lot of these things because they have forge world skin Because it has this modeled nature because it's all they could do because they knew they couldn't get a smooth cast So they just gave it this awful bumpy gross gross nightmarish skin That that is because they knew that it would look all janky coming out of the printer and be fine Or sorry out of the mold I apologize Out of the mold and be fine So there are product of their time like in the 90s when forge world was a specialist company Supporting they will have a fantasy line. They were incredible. I've got karmine dragons coming up the wazoo in my display cabinet I've got you know, the the old empire Handgunners and swordsmen We love them like in the 90s amazing But the advancements that we've seen in plastic at games workshop now Has just blown them out of the water and with no evolution in resin that it's left in the dark So, um, I I'm kind of okay with it despite owning so much forge world. I'm kind of okay with uh, maybe You know ripping the bandaid off and now looking at evolving the process. Hopefully for New lines. Yeah for the old world like get in the new stuff Get in the new, you know, how are we going to do it? I assume you're still going to use resin uh, and um And you know actually produce something that's quality and and the answer is look if if like if the mourn goal and the troll hag and uh, the idol of the rogue idol and You know, whatever if there's like four things that are salvageable from that line Okay, because they are functionally useful great re-sculpt them in plastic Put out new cool versions of them Like the rogue idol was always overcharged nonsense because I can make the rogue idol right now out of pink foam And you'll it'll be the exact same thing It's it's that is that is insane that you would pay a hundred dollars for a rogue idol or however much he costs I don't even know how much he costs It's it is I love mine. I love it was one of the first models that I ever painted. It really was and I love it 112 dollars 112 literally I could make this guy out of pink foam.  I could go out in my garden And make this guy Give me a freaking break. Okay, but at any rate, uh Yeah, maybe I'll do that as a hobby cheating video make your own rogue idol.  I'm saying right now we're not Because even the models they are making are of a low quality. They're too expensive and they're not integrated into the rules in the right way That's all Now back to the original question. We got sidetracked there is legions getting a new entire release fully recast in plastic brand new chaos dwarves officially entering the universe or Is the next gsh ghb Uh, what about that sweet sweet sweet corn dragon crazy horse? He should be taken out to pasture Putting the ash bin of history and forgotten about um And for the people who have him i'm sorry, uh For those seven people. I am I can I point out How negative vince is being right now not me. You see me. I'm like, I love forge world I love these models. The show's only go up from here guys. You've got a really cool show play It's gonna be great for the rest. Absolutely And I will I do want to end the new segment with something positive So after we do this one, I will drop something really quickly. Oh, we've got a couple I've got a couple. We got a couple more things. Yes. Okay. Here we go one Are they being getting a whole new line in plastic? So the castors officially enter the age of sigma or universe with exciting new re-sculpts and cool things or Are they moving to legends? Put your money down now tom Uh, they've already been sculpted in plastic. It's called luminos brown lords. Boom Okay Got it got it. So so your argument would be then they're going to legends. Is that where your money's going tom? Yeah, probably. Okay coach I'm torn because we know in rath of the ever chosen Natalie and brilliant I know you're torn and she's from australia as well But we this is the time where we put down our votes I'm gonna put my chips down. So I was gonna before I put my chips down catacross has destroyed Uh, the chaos dwarf city in ever chosen rath of the ever chosen. So the law I think maybe that is a reflection of maybe a rebirth that's coming So I'll put my chips down the war cry war band with chaos dwarves in it Gives me the indication much like the kernothy that sometime in the future. We are getting chaos dwarves 2.0 and hopefully with hobgoblins again All right My vote is I think it's the obvious answer that they're going to legends Okay They're just gonna move them over to legends They will go the road of the tomb kings and the Bretonians before them Uh Now would I love to see them reimagine that concept for in plastic? Like if you ask me my vote, it's they're going to legends if you ask me what I want And I think this is probably true for all of us It would be amazing to see this army re sculpted in plastic Reimagined for aos and to have it like to have a real chaos dwarf Faction would be super cool Given you imagine plastic hell cannon Yeah, sure. I mean like or the war engines like I love their super cool crazy Iron demons and their war engines. They were so cool Again, they're a die. Yeah. I like just fire into elementals which hopefully luminous will bring but that type of cool aesthetic from the underworld Yes, like I would I would love to bring them. Don't worry about that. Sure I was gonna move over to the line the lines My honest answer is chaos dwarves were like as much as I joke on them Dunk on them for being a fake army Is that they were pretty age of sigmar before there was age sigmar, right because they're driving around these You know these steam trains that they're ramming into people They have these massive artillery pieces and they all have these you know Sort of advanced guns and stuff like a flying bull Yes, yeah, and they they were shoving two animals together before it was cool. Absolutely With with the I mean Salinar is Salinar is just a llama sue. Sure. So my uh I think it would like it feels right My hope would be even if it doesn't happen now that they do eventually return to it because I think it is a really cool concept And one that would fit actually really well into the mortal realms and in a broader way Would be a really interesting chaos faction because they do have so much shooting and artillery and other ways to play and they are more of like a a mixed force uh army You know like this sort of mix of like melee. They've got chaff. They've got some shooting They've got war machines and you don't see a lot of those in chaos Cast tends to be a lot more like single-minded in the way in the nature of their forces So it would actually be a cool A cool another item the only the only other current one like that in cast is obviously Escaping so and not everybody likes ratman. I mean you should you're wrong if you don't but not everybody does Okay, it's probably like a 2022 2023 Type army. So I think you're right. Uh, it's going to be retired for a good 12 18 maybe 24 months just with the way we're kind of going with the release schedule as you guys have talked about often But I would probably say yeah two to three years time from now. You've probably got a new range of chaos dwarves coming Yeah We can all help I could buy that I could buy that like it's a very natural expansion Like we're talking about like people ask can they go on making armies forever? Well, no, but I think there are still some areas of design that like we We could very naturally drift into and I think plastic cast dwarves. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Are there? Yeah Uh, so quick other item down below in the news section down below in the description You will find a link to a survey about negative play experience Uh, please go fill that out if you haven't already, please go Complete that survey at six questions Number five is kind of hard. I will openly admit because it's a ranking of armies But even if you're only ranking the top armies, that's fine. That's what we're really interested in What do you think are the sort of top negative play experience armies? Um, we've had lots of people complete it so far. I'm very happy with the results so far We're gonna keep it open for one more week One more week So you still have a week to get it done, but don't wait You can fill it out now while you're watching the show. Maybe maybe Fire that up on another screen while you're listening to us chat about how to fix death and uh pop in your answers it should only take you about five minutes And uh, it's very valuable data. We're gonna do a show on npe in the future I feel I've already seen and had some great learnings from it. It's very very interesting data. Make your voice heard Uh, you know because I want I want to get as much as possible. There is a lot of varying opinions on this Uh on the concept of npe or negative play experience and I that I everything is interesting to me So please please please, uh, may fill that out. All right coach. What else did you want to say? I'm sorry. You you also said no no no no no mine's only a small one I uh hot off the press this morning or for me for this morning anyway, uh, the latest broken realms Article that's coming up probably in the next day or two south is very very cool between slanish and corn so Keep an eye out for that new broken realm story There is no love lost between the blood god and the dark prince when the party of slanish Here tonight is discovered by the blades of corn bloodshed is inevitable Now that's not a cool story and you don't click that link. I don't know what's going to so Keep an eye out for that one. Yeah, nice. Nice. I will be excited. I haven't I haven't read yet. So I'll be excited to read that one um Fantastic, okay, so with that Let's uh get into our Pick of the week. So pick of the week Uh tom, what would you like to share with everybody? um Why don't we let go to our guest first sure why don't we go to the guest first coach? What would you like to share with everybody? All right, so normally I shout out a whole bunch of australian content credit at this point But i'm going to be selfish because it's my birthday next week And i'm doing a birthday stream if you if you saw my aos quiz night that I ran Just after christmas. I'm doing another one on my birthday. So uh monday for the australians everyone else on the uh on the sunday Sunday night or sunday day depending on what region you're watching us from But I hope you join me on my birthday to play some age of sigma using the chat function of of um of youtube And it's uh, it's very very cool. Uh, I watched the previous one and it was super fun and super cool I was so impressed by how you managed to Work this crazy software truly pushing the magic of what this medium is capable of Uh, it was great great and a lot of fun. Uh I especially love how very early on a lot of your players, especially like round one and two figured out the the The guy who knew all the answers and would just like wait for him to answer and then copy whatever he said And you could just like see a violin where they're all just crowding behind this guy So yes, that was very funny So it's a multiple choice. So if you want to come in have a good laugh and uh, you know Like it's law and rules across the whole the whole bunch of different factions. You want to hang out on my birthday? Come join us for a couple of hours. So um and the the times are on my channel. So come over Yes, I was watching back after you did it live So I was just answering the questions to myself and in like I think it was maybe the first round or second round I only got one wrong, but the one I got wrong was prosecutors hitting wound roll because I was like couldn't remember I could not in my mind Like justify them being that bad as they are and I was like god, how are they that terrible? like Yeah, that's that feels like Not great, especially since I have like 18 prosecutors, but anyways, so it was my favorite unit when storm cast release I thought this is the coolest thing ever. This is what I've always wanted It was one of the first units that I thought I hacked winner when uh, the javelins were cheaper than the double hammers So I quickly went to a bit site got some javelins was running my underpowered prosecutors and then they changed so Good times on that 3d6 charge indeed Uh, for my pick of the week, I'll buy you some more time. Tom. Oh, I got mine. Okay. Go ahead. Go ahead Uh, I don't normally spruke you so I'll spruke you this week. Um, Vince did a wonderful hobby cheating video on alien bases um pulling from some of his slinish stuff that he's been doing and they are beautiful And techno color and everything that looks like it literally if you do your bases like this it'll look like Vince painted your models. That's it's just that easy folks. You trick them with the base. That's how we do it No, thank you, Tom. Uh, I appreciate that they're very nice. That was a really good video. I really enjoyed it. Good. I'm glad I'm glad to hear it. It was funny too because uh, that the first part of that video is rerecorded footage where I had to like Literally just take white paint and paint over all of my finished Uh miniature including like the the tufts and everything I just had to be like Because I somehow the the recording for the middle part got lost Oops. Anyways, it happened sometimes Technological problems. So I recorded the whole thing and I went to compile it Yeah, and I was like, wait, where's the middle part where I actually put down the initial colors and I was like, oh No, that's not here. It got lost somehow. Okay.  We do this again Do it again Uh, all right, so mine You could have just done another base, right? No, because I had it had to match like all the same stuff And I would have had to wait hours for it to like make a new base let everything dry again I would have to wait more than a day and I was like in the middle of compiling videos Uh, okay My pick is going to be so uh our good buddy rob honest wargamer rob has been doing some breakfast battles this week He's back on the breakfast battles train. So you can watch a good fun game of aos on tts tabletop simulator Even though I don't particularly want to play on tabletop simulator I like watching games of warhammer and It's really fun because they're both the players are talking very openly about sort of what they're doing and it's a very fun process And uh, yesterday I got to watch a fun game where oan who will be on the show Later in the month who's run many tts tournaments Uh, where oan ran a version a weaker version not my preferred version But a version of what everyone is now calling smash bat and smash bat is my favorite new hero the mortal realms needed It is a uh var gulf quartier in hollow morn Built to just ramp to the nines Shoot like a missile like 30 to 40 inches across the board without a stretch And then hit for like 30 to 40 damage per attack and pile in twice It's incredible. I love smash bat. He makes me so happy Because that this fleshier quartz version runs none of the runs no kumquats no ghoul kings on terra geist None of the big none of the big monsters at all Uh, it uses like the royal mordens. Uh, so it's all Crypt players and cryptors and ghouls and then the var gulf quartier and so on and so forth And smash bat is awesome. Uh, and you can you can you can have an army with a couple different smash bats Like you'll only have one super smash bat But then you get super smash bat and smash bat if you build it out with the the double royal morden super And uh anyways, it's awesome and it here's do you want to know how much I like smash bat? I thought What do I have that I could just build this army out of and paint it in 24 hours? Can I do this? What do I got what you all like the audience needs to understand like I was in the chat when this came up And like vince almost talked himself into a new army like already this close. It's on the spot. Yeah Because smash bats amazing Uh, yeah, it it it triggers all of his buttons. Like it's it's all of the things that he loves Buffed ridiculous monster just going across the board at lunatic speeds going And just killing everything. It's vince loved it so much I woke up one morning to a wall of text this long Uh, just talking about smash bats and I'm like sleeping my eyes six o'clock in the morning Going, what is smash bash? I'm trying to work it out. I'm looking at the app I'm looking at you know a whole bunch of sites trying to piece it all together But it is very very cool. So uh, but vince is absolutely loving it Yeah, I think vince needs the death army like he needs to do it. I was I don't have a death army I that's just it. I don't know what this death thing coming as we're going to talk about today Uh, but I don't have a death army right now. My only death army was retired when when tomb kings went to legends, right? And what I thought was so I started I started looking around at that like stuff that I have that's just kind of old stuff And I thought to myself, huh? Huh I have a lot Of Bretonian stuff unpainted still like I have a huge Bretonian army, but I have a lot more than that Right and these guys are all dead knights, right? That's what they think of themselves as so your smash bat is pegasus knights Yeah, smash bat and the and the crypt flares. They're all just pegasus knights, right? And the little crypt ghouls because you only need like 20 crypt ghouls for this too, by the way Yeah, it was mostly it was mostly horrors and flares with a double Vagolf correct in double morden It's like 20 so the build a double mordant that I like is two vargulfs the arch regent the regular ghoul king Six flares three flares three horrors three horrors 10 ghouls 10 ghouls Yeah, and then extra you can you can prowl he's put thought into this Yeah, I've built out this list to see how many models it is. It's not a lot This is a perfect 24 hour army project So like the problem is like if I actually got the real figs it would be quicker to paint Because those are just like so easy those models are just those models are nothing Like ghouls and crypt horrors and stuff are nothing you can paint those in seconds, right? I think you know, but if I but if I did them as plutonium knights and little like peasants and stuff as the little ghouls, I mean So here's what you do then here's what you do um, you buy a couple like a handful of Getting started boxes for fleshy rewards now because then you get the big I don't want the big bats But you like you don't have to build that but just like financially. It's the right call like it's the it's the right way to do this um, you don't have to build those you can save those for later and then you take your outrageous bits box of um Your outrageous bits box of plutonium and all of your undone kits and you do the ultimate kit bash of undead plutonians And for the vargolf who is a terrible model like an objectively terrible You just do pegasus knights and so you do full pegasus knights for those And then you can do like so you do a mix of original models, right? and plutonium stuff And you do both You just reminded me of another thing we need to fix with death. So thank you for that You're welcome Because it's the right way to go because it would be beautiful and you actually have the bits to pull it off Sure, sure. I mean, yes I do like I mean because I have like a very large plutonian army that is not Uh, not like a second whole army, right? and that's fine The other option that like there's a couple different options I was contemplating doing this the other thing is if I could still find one of the 2020 battle force boxes of the ovars It'd be fun to kit bash all the ogres into the horrors and flares and stuff like put little wings on them Because they look like little muscly. They're the right guys and they they have the nice shape and ogres are good for that Kind of speed paint type of thing Anyways, just a thing. I was thinking about we'll see there might eventually be a video out of it But you know, we've got slanesh coming up. So that's the that's the thing Uh, anywho smash bad is awesome. So breakfast battles. That was a long right way around smash bats awesome Uh, and uh, check out breakfast battles with rom. So there you go Tom what's your pick of the week? That's right. We're still oh, you already did it. Never mind. We're good. We're good. Sorry. Sorry I mean, I can spruke your video again if you don't know. No, it's fine. All right. Let's do some hobby Time so hobby time. Tom. What are you been working on? Tom's hobby mojo is back by the way I'm just gonna jump right in. Yeah, man. Go for it.  Okay. That's fine. Uh, I'm going this way today. Okay. Let's We'll get to code. It's a circle of life. Yeah, I Have a hobby confession um I didn't paint a lot of models last year like From start to finish any models Like I painted a lot of models and anthony we you know, we talked about this like I painted a lot of models Like started a lot of models 100 plus models at least that had some paint on them You know over 100 built I had tons of armies partially built not a single model was finished Last year. Thanks. Govind uh Since the first I have completed 20 models Oh, by the way, can I just say real quick? I just want to say this that smash pad is the creation of of Of uh, Chris welfare, so I don't want to take credit for that. That was his list and he deserves As far as I know, he was the originator smash pad. So I just wanted to credit the original the man himself. So sorry, go ahead, Tom Yeah, so, uh, I've finished 20 models. Um Yeah, and so I'm I'm plugging through my backlog and in the process of um I'm moving past most of my ko that I've have partially painted and I'm moving on to stuff that I only have base coated Um, and I may or may not have a very large order of more ko Invoiced so For some reason I decided in the midst of this. I needed a more ko that happened Nice nice, but you're you're back on that. You're back on it Uh, tom's been just doing nothing but putting out hobby progress Yep It's true Uh, fantastic true. I'm glad to see it. Uh, now we just got to get you up here and uh, play some games It's true. There you go coach. What about yourself? What's been on your hobby table, brother? So, funnily enough, actually, I'm glad that tom went first because it was tom tom's tom's always called you tom's. How wow Dr tom's lie and she inspired you. Yes ways to not get back into the show. But yes, dr. Thomas Uh, it was through his frank open conversation that we had in our little group chat That made me realize that there's been a I was very similar. I found that Um, there was a lot of stop start stop start for me until gargants came out And there's a project that's been in my display cabinet since 2018 Um, I in 2018 I decided it was a good idea to strip my zench army My old metal zench and then built upon it.  So I went out and bought um, what what I now own is like 60 blue horrors 40 40 pinks 40 brims a new lord of change I got all these cool stuff But they sat unpainted for Literally two years.  I've painted 64 blue horrors. I've painted 40 brimstone horrors and I'm just putting the final touches on 40 pinks so So I wanted to get that out of the way and then all I've got is my characters left. So And then I've also been kind of preparing for armies on parade. So very very early stages Brainstorming and collaborating with my elf Partheon Chuck Moore and um and martin Orlando to to come up with this idea that I have Nice, that's awesome man. That's awesome new year new you That's right. Yeah, yeah, anyone who knows me knows me. Well, uh, I'm always saying elves are jerks and um, and you know The only good elf is a dead elf, but it seems like my cities of sigmar is full of elves And now I have a daughters of cane army and a luminous by army and um, I've got these elves. So I'm gonna change man. Maybe I am an elven man I see no problems with that whatsoever. That's good. Uh For my hobby time, uh, I finished up my St. Celestine here that I'm working on. She's all done and uh, I'll share some pictures of her This weekend, I did put her on her little base that she normally comes with because I didn't like it I just wanted her to be her and free floating not strangely standing on a pile of skulls and candles for no reason whatsoever I like the idea of her just floating much better Uh, but I'm happy with very happy with how she came out. Uh, and she took a lot longer than I thought She's pretty big.  Uh, this is a very productive hobby weekend As I mentioned earlier, I got a or hobby week. I got a game in with my uh, with my giants. That was fun Uh, the giants I'm running the version of giants that I like which is all offense and uh, smashy-smashy That came out okay, but now it's time to turn to uh To some chariots Uh, because I got whatever it's row car gresh or whatever that guy is the three chariot box So i'm just putting together chariots. I've got everything together for Two chariots. I'm probably gonna save one to see what I want to do with it The list I want to run is two chariots in there. So Making up two chaos chariots. I got everything assembled and uh, get those painted up here Hopefully pretty quick, uh, you know over the next week or so should have those done Uh, yeah, so lots and lots of very very productive time. This was uh, this was a busy busy week uh, okay Uh, right on so if you're still watching now, hey all you people Thank you for still watching while you're here as we get to our main topic Why don't you hit that like button as we go to talk about how we're gonna fix death and the upcoming release If you haven't already hit like do so if you're here and you haven't subscribed yet Hey, do that too.  We'll know Which way you voted even though you hit the same button youtube records it so it's fine And if you are concerned about it, you can comment below Um, and let us know exactly what you meant by that like there you go. Exactly. Yes, that would be just for absolute clarity That's probably what you I'm watching the numbers go up. It's so awesome. It was like in the 60s It's jumped at like 90 already like in seconds. So come on guys Good job.  Okay, so death legions of negash How are we gonna fix this right? uh Can we talk about why they're why they need fixed? Yeah, yeah, yeah, so Yes, we're gonna start there But actually here's where I want to start This is a weird army Uh, because uh It's It's a sort of what I say, um, like Like cities or whatever tell you what tom you talk for a second go you talk Yeah, so it is a weird army um the It is it's kind of a It was early on in the faction like sub allegiance All right, like if you actually go back through and look at the history of the books It was early in in that like divisions And but it has a bunch of your hosting for a moment. Tom. I'll be right back. Thank you and coach carry this Yeah, it has a bunch of very unusual kind of auxiliary Um elements that are just different. Would you agree with that coach? Yeah, it was produced in uh, so the history of legions of negash and hopefully no one actually leads me at this point Is that it was an age of sigma one book? Tried to be created for age of sigma two So I remember picking I remember picking up my legions of negash for the first time And for anyone who's joined us in the last couple of years in age of sigma one Summoning was something you had to pay for in your army list So if you wanted to bring back a unit of skeletons for example and skeletons are 300 points Your army list would only be up to 1700 and then you'd have 300 points in reserve for summoning And that would either be for regeneration or for real summoning And when legions came out It was the it it still had summoning in a time that we paid points for and it seemed really weird at that time and as I look at Place I remember so nergal came out right before this and I remember after reading nergal summoning and critiquing it And then reading legions of negash. I remember making the comment like to go back to one of our shows It really feels like you're not gonna have to pay for summoning in the future Yeah, because because it like it just it was so weak comparatively It was it was super weird and super weak. You're right summoning wasn't a viable strategy. I remember I I still have my old Flesh eater courts. I I built a flesh eater courts army as well And and I remember looking at the the gulking on terror guys and it's like oh summon a free unit of Horrors. I'm like who cares like If I want a free unit of horrors, I might as well just put them in my army and guarantee being there Obviously now age of sigmar 2 that is actually a benefit so I think when I look at legions of negash and I compare it to some of the older battle tomes Nergal daughters of kane Ida deep kin, you know these books that that haven't been updated for age of sigmar 2 They've held the test of times and I think for me legions of negash is a pilot it was the test and learn for age of sigmar 2 and We have all reaped the rewards in other battle tomes by expanding upon spell law artifacts suballegiances And it's and the reason I was really excited to revisit this is because it's almost like cool now We've learned all this stuff How do we make this book feel the way it's meant to feel and I think for me It just doesn't feel like a death army and I've had this conversation, you know one of the Administrator of the death facebook group is one of my personal An oldest friends dick He is a massive death player. He has like 15 20,000 points of death And my my issue is is that I could build a death army and I could almost transport it in all the different legions And other than a mortar. It's basically the same It's basically the same Like visually it's the same Even the rules to a degree like like like this little there's little tweaks, but it doesn't feel different compared to like What other armies can do Really it's like so I think about like legion of knight is definitely ambushing And like you don't you don't get that in any of the other death armies um You know and there are like leech of blood like it has some different artifacts like obviously all about different artifacts um But I agree largely most of them are playing in very similar spaces You know the the defining mechanic for almost all of them is the graveyard Uh the graveyards and returning units And and that's present in all of them. And so they're really not distinct amongst one another um, and so This book is probably aged the least well out of all the nurgles had help From uh wrath of the ever chosen. Yeah morathi has now had help from our doc has now had help from morathi and so now Uh, and they've also like received like additional models or at least uh, at least doc has had the supplemental the iron scale Um, and so you they've gotten some additions around but legions of negus has simply had nothing Well, if you think about it legions of negus got no terrain piece. They got no fresh models when the book came out It was literally a book and a war scroll Like they literally got nothing they literally got nothing from the release Yeah, you got like like lord lord rye But again, it was just a new war scroll of a current model Right, and you got the you got the paliquin as well, which is literally the same model Just a different roll scroll and a build like you literally got nothing other than uh, a battle tome and war scroll cards Yep, and they had a lot taken away as well. Um, I don't know if we remember that but they lost like the the vampire lord on, uh, on Yeah, abyssal terror um, uh Soblight had a whole bunch of rules. Soblight you could regenerate with the banner and they lost they lost that Uh, kemler or better known as necromancer with hat Um, so I mean they lost. Um, they lost a lot of like distinct war scrolls as well with that book Yeah, it was it was it was a challenge for for death players and um, uh, and I think this is this is why I'm really excited about this Discussion because like now we've got two three years of learning.  That's not the black coach. You get this crappy old metal Are you like why they're the same thing? Sorry, uh, you don't get it. So I think they've been I think like even something like the store The store um nighthorton unit you had it for like two days and then they they took it off you So I think it's time we we we turn this around and we fix legions and negash knowing that how Influential vincent tom you guys are that we are going to fix this and give the the roadmap to games workshop to Mate make these guys awesome And to do so by the way I have brought my life size version of my sort of negash. Nice. Nice I like it and i'm also pulling from one of my tomes of negash. So i'm ready I'm ready. I thought I was muting myself for everybody, but I wasn't I generally I was only muting myself to youtube And everybody on the stream could still hear my wife saying she wanted to apologize and me saying it's fine Uh, yeah, the dog. I didn't I didn't hear that. So we didn't hear that. Yeah, we had no idea. It's all good. Yes Oh, you're not forgiving Kathy. No It's uh, yeah, uh, it's fine. It's all good. Uh, dog got the dog Okay, so it's had some doggo related issues Uh, so I don't know what you guys already discussed, but I'll assume it was both intellectually stimulating and insightful All of the problems with the book and the age of the book and how it didn't age well And how it's uh, even the sub factions that are there are not necessarily distinguishable meaningfully And that the the only mechanic was actually one that bridged all of them and it's equally problematic Yeah, exactly. I agree with all that but Okay, so one thing I wanted to talk about is I think manfred Well, obviously Yes No, wait and how we well how he is both the worst and we should all be grateful to him for giving us age sigmar um like Here's one thing that I was thinking about as as this was kind of being discussed earlier today Uh, is that, um Legions of negash to me this is this is the joke I made right I said legions of negash to me is the equivalent of like The government dull food package or something you get that's like in a white package that just says the word generic cheese On it. Like it doesn't actually have a brand It's just the most generic stuff some skeletons and some skeletons with more armor and Dire wolves, which I guess okay our undead sure why not or whatever um, why not and Some bats and here is some zombies and here are vampires like it's so bobby generic, okay and My instinct is to go well you put all that in a bin and you do something cool with them, okay right But I think that's the wrong instinct all right I think I would be incorrect because I don't think that's giving these players what they want I think what the players of legions of negash the people who are attracted to this army I think and I'll be interested to see what the folks in the chat say But I think that the people who are interested in this army Are interested in it because It's a bunch of generic Just undead stuff Okay, it's like yep. It's just skeletons. I when I said that derisively they were like no no That's what we want Right, like what I like is some cool skeletons and some cool stuff like that those things are cool to me Uh, and I'm okay. I I want the castlevania army I mean no because castlevania is actually cool and has cool monsters in it Like I'm sorry. No, you want like the ghosts and ghouls army No, I want the nintendo the nes castlevania army I don't even that had different monsters in it, but sure that's fine I mean, I guess maybe castlevania one, but like symphony of the night was not just skeletons and zombies okay Like yeah, I want the castlevania army too the army out of the most recent anime the anime that's on netflix because I want those night beasts or whatever that they make where the The soul crafters or whatever they are the forge masters are like banging people into those Weird demonic undead things like holy crap Uh, that sounds that that'd be amazing. I would be in for that stuff But no, this is like literally just the most generic stuff okay It's just basic no creativity The standard most tried and tested tropes.  I don't know what the like the big ghost boat Okay, lucky coven throat. Uh, there we go coven throat and the Right.  Um, it's very diablo too. Congratulations, but like at the end of the day, I No, here's my saying this one's saying look It is generic. Don't try to defend it like it's not Okay, it is It is super generic stuff.  Sure Sure, there are right like there are there's weird her condoms or or or lumen arcs or whatever Which is the equivalent to the kind of chariot thing you're talking about, right? Phoenixes. Yep, but for like for the most part it's It's basic now My argument would be you keep all of that basic stuff But you add a little more flourishes like what cities have Stop trying to be like I think the answer is not steer away from the basic like I would want it to be But this army isn't for me Okay Yep, like what I what I came to a realization today in discussing this that uh That that one this army isn't for me and two To properly design its aesthetic. It shouldn't be built for me Right, it should be before it should be built for people who want the basic stuff the most classic tried and tested tropes To remove all Loaded language from what I'm saying, right? It should be the most Uh, the most long-standing classic gothic horror archetypes given for So can I Okay, we'll go ahead and go go no No, no, I was just going to say the interesting observation as I'm listening to you vince is that I am a cities of sigmar player I am a legion's a niggas player So there is something here between both of those armies that I really draw from me And I know when I talk to my game master in dungeons and dragons what draws You know what draws my excitement is not playing in far east asia not playing in super tech dunes and dragons What draws me is traditional classic Fantasy and I love that I love the The interview with vampire. I love You know all that kind of skeletons and zombies and that type of thing. So I think for me When I look at this army, I would never want that to be removed And I think there's an opportunity as you guys have said and one one thing I've always hoped for I hoped obr would do it and obr didn't do it Is we now have all these cool monsters and so many things that have happened in the mortal realms Give me a give me a zombie or a skeleton A star drake or a more crusher or these things that you're talking about vince You know, we've now got so many cool new models from warhammer fantasy into sigmar Let's zombify it. Let's skeletonify it. Let's undeadify it and put a new lens on on negation shyish Yeah, well, and hold on. Let me just let me wrap up two things real quick one Hello, I know my wife is watching. You're fine. It's okay. So I'm happy to go get the dog happy to help. I love you, dear and two Um, I completely agree with that and you mentioned something there real quick and somebody else mentioned something in the in the chat I want to build on when I say we should build on these tropes I mean instead of steering, you know, sometimes you get in a skid on ice. The trick is to steer into the skid right This is the same thing we need to steer into this and like we're down in the crevasse We need to go down way down, okay, so the the point is is that we Should like there's other classic horror archetypes tropes That are just very standard that we're missing here. We need werewolves in this mix or something We need uh flesh golems in this mix, right? We need mummies in this mix like that kind of thing like build on the Tropification make this the true cities of sigmar of death in that it's covering it like with cities We've got the classic elven tropes dwarven tropes and human tropes, right that sort of Standard versions of that stuff like here's your heavy dwarf armored guy with a shield Here's your heavy dwarf armored guy with a gun, right or whatever, you know and uh And so like cool, we're covering all the basics here. Yeah and the This could be the same thing, but we're missing some of those classic tropes So can I jump in here? Yeah, please go ahead So my solution was actually going to be it's so funny that you guys like have have came here Because it's very similar to my solution and on one hand and very different. Okay with the forthcoming vampire book Okay, which might be all death and not just vampires, but sure right I I in my heart of hearts Hope that it is And I hope in my heart of hearts that it is not all death Okay I hope it's vampy vampy vampires Okay, and I'm okay if there's minions mixed in there But I don't want it to be the update to eloan Okay, what I want it to be is I want it to be a distillation of the pure vampire like kingdom style madness Okay of like the clans and the like based on the mortars and You can have some minions But then I want like my solution was actually going to be that I think the update to eloan It needs to be something on the lines of like eternal empires. Okay And it's all of your death aligned like your shyish kingdoms That negash leads And so and what and with that like What you do is basically you double into Basically it becomes cities of sigmar for negash and for shyish And you you have living followers as well as dead followers You can do you can do everything that needs this be like be super tropey and in one book It's interesting you say that because that's probably been one of my biggest frustrations with legends of negash It came out before the knight haunt book and we had a weird alignment and a weird synergy between knight haunt and And legions You don't you don't get all of the knight haunt stuff and we saw that you know Grimgas reapers broke the meta at the time and then we kind of came on like years later bringing legion of grief You then in the law have In shyish you have the humans that live in partnership with the underworlds and the spirits of their ancestors Yet, I can't do that with cities of sigmar. I can't bring in humans into my death The other thing that guides my gears is that all of my skeletons are human And one of the most imaginative units that I love from war have a fantasy battles was the uh, the dogs of war Is it the the lost legion or the company that was a skeleton unit? The damned legion that had goblins and dwarfs and elves and orc skeletons and for me when I say let's bring the the um The mortal realm's intelligence and the gash. That's what I mean. I want to see zombie versions of things I want to see skeleton versions of things on top of Coolie stuff. Mm-hmm. Sure. Sure sure So let's let's have this discussion out because it's gonna frame the rest of what we talk about tonight. Okay Yep, we know there is new death coming Yes That's that's not up for contention, right between the amazing number of rumor engines between The images that we saw right of clearly some new skeleton with a shield and The dead orc or ogre or whatever he is and the fact that we're getting this warband that looks like vampirates in march and the fact that the preview ended with like Destruction decadence and death was just like hey. Hey, hey Like they couldn't they can't telegraph it harder, right? Right. Okay. So we know we're getting some new death book probably in the first half of the year, right? It was originally going to be sooner. I'm sure but then you know Things world the world happened. Okay Is this new death book A soul blight book focusing mainly on vampires and Is that the lens we're going to see it through that doesn't mean there's not other stuff that gets refreshed Or other stuff that's in there, right vampires have servants and you can have other stuff in there Is this just though we take that we break it out and we leave legions kind of there as this weird dangler book That doesn't really seem to have a purpose anymore unless you just want to play skeletons I guess that's the literally the only thing it's doing now at that point right so or Is it a refresh of broader death? Is it kingdoms of the dead or something like that, right? The kingdoms of negash or you know, you can pick the name you like you get you get my point though, right? Is it a broader refresh coach? What's your that also has like a refresh soul blight within it, right? We get new blood knights. We get some kind of couple new vampire kits, whatever, you know, something like that, but we also get You know, I don't know like A new flesh golem kit or a new werewolf kit and we also get like a new uh Redone zombies. Let's just let's just swing for the fence. Yeah, you get my point Yeah So the issue that I have and I'm super curious because there's one of two ways Do you rip the bandai because it's like your your foot's half in the pool? Do I have night horde in my Legions in a gash or are they a separate army? Do I have salt light in my legions in a gash or are they a separate army? You know, you can't really have both and that's where we've had some problems in the past where Again grim gas reapers being a perfect example chain grass following up Is that we break the book there as it wasn't intended? so I am skeptical that Uh, that's so let's say call it soul blight or um, uh, or or vampire. It's whatever this new thing coming I'm skeptical that it's a large release I'm I think it's going to be a uh, a small release And it may be a refresh to soul blight through broken realms Uh, or a mini tome that will then eventually get merged into a larger update to legions Much like we've seen the expansion on storm cast with the excelsius chamber and we've seen corn get updated with Bloodbound and then they got reemerged Probably how they might do Lumineth when Tyrion comes and Malakirth with daughters of Cain. So I'm putting my stake in the ground It's a small release that'll eventually get updated in a os 3 with a new legion in a gash Okay. All right fair enough tom. Where where are you coming down on this? uh, I think Part of this is be witchcraft thing, but I I think that this is a new This is a new Okay, how do I want to say this? Uh, it is it is a vampire centric like it is a soul blight centric Book, okay, and I think that I think it will break down along the The vampire bloodlines or and along the vampire mortars. Okay Um, and I think it will contain a lot of the units that we've seen But I don't think it will be the new legions of negash. Does that make sense? Okay, so legions stays out there as sort of this weird dangler book is what you're saying Yes, and then I think within the year we'll get the the other one Okay Gotcha So you see it as basically they're gonna instead of trying to fix this all with one book They're going to say, okay, let's not cities of sigmar sarifon or scaven this because those would be the three Those are the three all in examples. We have right. That's what we would point out and go huge number of war scrolls Mixed, you know lots of mixed types of units Right lots of old inclusions of of older models. Like those are the templates we could go for here, right? Well, let me remind you that's what the other book was. Yeah, I understand It's the progenitor to all of that. I'm saying but I'm saying they're not going to repeat that is what I'm No, and I actually I think that the history of death has been them backing out of legions of negash. Okay And so what I mean by that is this Legion of night was like this ambushy like coming from the night thing so the first real army that we saw expanded out from from legions of negash was knight on Which took on a lot of the legion of night negai legion of night stuff In in mechanics it took on ambushing. It took on bravery debuffing. Sure Um, so a lot of those elements showed up in knight haunt and knight haunt became its own thing within its own entire range Yep And then we got OCR bone reapers, which was the expansion.  Okay That's that's your skeletal army, but you're playing a different you're playing elite versus horde It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter What i'm saying is is that I think that what they've been doing with the death books thus far Has been backing out concepts into their own books. So legion of negash has served as this umbrella army And then each each death book thus far has created has taken a concept That was nascent within the legion of negash and pulled it out into its own thing Okay, we've seen that with legion of negash. We've seen that with the obr I think the next thing we get is the vampire Stuff pulled on to be to stand on its own And then I think that what ends up happening on the other like down the road is you'll get um You'll get the final piece of that which is this like uh the the eternal empires of negash or something like that Which is going to be necromancer focus which will be like living squishy things. So it'll probably be like zombies. It'll probably be Werewolves, you know, it'll it'll be the the things that aren't vampires that aren't Skeletons in that aren't ghosts sure I'll draw a line in the sand and I'll say I think the complete opposite than tom I think you will get a mega book and I think you legitimize the four legions. So I think you legitimize I think you merge knight haunt into um legions of negash you legitimize legion of grief And I think you make the fifth one using this sole blight vampire.  And this is where I was talking about the the foot being in half of the pool, you know You've got some got some models like your spirit hosts in Um in legions You've got your black coach, which is not in legions, but it is in legions And and you've got these weird synergies And I'm wondering if it's if they are going to expand upon death in the future Do they just cities of sigma fire put it all together and use keywords and cities To bring it all together and make it easier to manage and then they focus on new expansions to death as independent books I just feel like soul blood is still too close to the old vampire counts Okay, okay So my answer of what I think we're gonna get Okay, so if I were to put my chips on the table of what is this going to be? I went back before the show And I reviewed like all of the the rumor engines that were death. Sure. We talked about it a little bit last month Okay. Yep And given you never know how many models You're actually dealing with there You know what I'm saying like because you take a lot of different pictures of legs and arms And weapons and stuff so you could be like three pictures of one model for all we know, right? Okay, yep What I noticed was that A lot of it looked like other Death stuff than just vampiric. Okay And There were a couple things that looked either Decidedly So I really reviewed and hoped I would see something that looked very mummy like Okay, but I just couldn't find anything in there I think it's so obvious because you see the bandages, right? So even if they're going to do it whatever and I just don't think they've got the the guts to do mummies again I just don't think they're going to bring it back. They're they're blackball their blackball model now. Yeah, move along Exactly. Well, no, I think I think they will when they reimagine tomb cake Like when they truly return to tomb king tomb kings when setra lives in like 2028. Sure Yeah, sure. Like I think that that's when they'll do it like that. That will be the aos I think I think you could be in the next four years To be honest like I think it could be in the next four years Because you could you would basically have anywhere between a eight to 10 year gap from aos launch To you know, like I think we could get it. Let me say that. I think we could get true mummies in this new thing A couple steps down the road Yeah, but when I was thinking about that when I was looking at this there were a couple things that looked either Ghoulish or dead-ish or wolfie Okay, so like there were a couple models. I was like that could be some kind of werewolf thing or ghouly thing Okay So like that's possible There was a couple there's been a couple things we've seen that looked kind of like Monstrously undead like a you know a fleshy thing or something like that and we we've seen a couple things that look like reimagined You know blood knights and stuff like that or whatever like we think because we've we've been saying for weeks That we then I I I fall plant this flag a thousand times. I'm absolutely convinced we're getting new plastic blood knights I've said it for two months now They have to they they they resin their fine cast. They are super expensive Um before before dragon princes were uh discontinued everyone bought dragon princes to be blood knight Now people are just buying chaos knights and getting rid of the the markings. It's it's inevitable Yeah, so My when I when I went back and looked at all of these rumor engines and thought about like, okay How would I do this? How do we how what you know the challenge they're up against right? They've got some new models the sculptors have made and it's probably My point being it's probably a range across death If you're one of the sculptors I could see you going I would love to reimagine the blood knight kit right this they love doing stuff like that These classic like I don't know sculpted the original blood knights, but they're so, you know, they were meticulous and And these beautifully ornate kits. That's exactly the kind of stuff the sculptors love doing like right like Reimagining and giving their own spin on a classic You know on those like Yep, sure. I mean look at the kits that took top last year and their honorable mentions was like ragnar, right? Ragnar had this old derpy model. It was bad and when uh, I think Darren Latham is the one who ultimately sculpted new ragnar, you know And he loved the chance because it was one of his favorite characters He had positive memories the thing he grew up with him and this is his chance to like he loves the original I think Jessica admitted the original I think I'm sorry if I got any of those wrong, but um You know he it was his chance to like bring it to a new generation And I think that's how they're going to look at a lot of this right so So what the sculptors probably delivered? Is a mix of That of death right across the board with some new things there that haven't been there before Okay, sure because again like they they want to also push in a new balance They're not just here to literally re-sculpt what other people did right? So If that's the case Which I think it is just based on like the rumor engine and stuff like that then what are we getting? Okay, my answer is we're gonna get a split of the two Okay That is to say When you look at how they divided things originally They were under the mortars and it was them kind of experimenting with that kind of a concept But then also they were like, oh, yeah, but also here's all vampires Right or whatever.  You right? Yep Yeah, okay So my answer is they're looking to reinvent this Under the lords of the dead Okay And because that was already the kind of the idea they had before they just had this other stuff going on Okay So they'll they'll 86 some of the really bad stuff. They don't have sculpts for probably or that has no real purpose, right? We'll probably like Dire bats Like probably either fell bats or bat swarms will go I imagine I'll keep one of them because they want to keep that element in there Maybe we got a new bat type of thing that could be like I could see them doing a new bat thing Um, there's there was a rumor engine that I looked at and thought that could be a weird gargoyle or bat monster Uh, there's one where he's like, yeah, there's like the foot in the arm coming down with like a wing behind it And I was like that could be a replacement bat monster Right. Yep. Yep. So like that could be a replacement Tarragas kind of field without being a tarragas being that bat aesthetic Yeah, yeah, exactly. By the way, things like gargoyles are that kind of concept as well By the way, right for those for those sorts of things talking about another classic archetypal archetypical Long-standing trope that's endured right and it has this like horror because again in my mind the thing that ties this together is in This is this was my realization as I was thinking about this In during gothic horror. I think yes. I think clint is actually when we were talking to as I was talking to clint I think he's the one who said those exact words, right? Like it was the gothic horror aspect. Maybe it was you coach. I don't know. I was one of you two who said it, right? and That really clicked with me Right. That's this key That's this aesthetic in the same way with it with cities. It's the weird Menagerie of all of the the sort of mortal races coming together to defend in all of their classic colors As it were, right? I mean colors in the broader sense here, right? Not the paint colors the flying your colors, right? right That gothic horror. So I was like thinking of the integrating these things and so what they integrated into is they make The lords of death that they have With negash ultimately at the top right And then so like yes, manfred. Yes, all of that The All of those things are what will sell this and what they would have sculpted toward My guess is like that's the aesthetic they sculpted toward was that gothic horror? And then the book writer said okay Now how does this organize? It's going to organize with negash it like literally like a pyramid Negash is at the top And then you've got each of these things and it won't be a like what it'll feel like a vampirey or where you know Release mainly with like some new real monsters werewolves gargoyle stuff like that. Those were the people in charge. Yes Yes, it's a classic. It's a classic image like when this book very first came out You had this amazing picture where it was negash at the top and then there was the three little icons for the different mortars And for me, that's one of the the standing images that I think about and that that organization of And I know when I was thinking about this. I'm like I would love someone to betray negash I would love to see what this looks like with new mortars. We know that negash has well in the old world He had nine Lords of death that he was reimagining into mortars I want to I want to see more organization structure under the mortars And make them feel more unique In each of the mortars just like how I enjoy hallow heart tempest I hammer haul same models But I get a distinct feel when I put my models in the different cities And I'm also incentivized to run different models in each of the cities. Yeah. Yeah I think this will feel I think you're on to it, right? Okay So I think the way they'll design this book is something in between cities and slaves to darkness Okay Because when I say the rulers there are different types of rulers don't think like Manfred or nephrata. That's not what I'm sure Okay, and this and but this is what you think is coming This spring. Yes, correct. This is the all the other book In my mind the way I thought about it like how are these legions? How are these things that are under him split up, right? It's based on the leadership. That's not just the mortars. Yes, I understand. They're the the nominal actual heads of state Okay, but think of the way they do slaves to darkness Okay, if it's like there's the ravagers, which is all about the hordes and having the mortal non monstrous human type leaders leading it Right and you you bring a bunch of extra dudes on you've got the cabalists Which are the wizards and the and the the any, you know, the magic users, right? And they're all about like sacrificing their own people to gain bonuses and and summon powerful magics, right? And then you've got the dispoilers Which are the the demon prince led factions, right? You could do that same sort of trope here, but frame it under a more cities like archetype Right, so like the the you you might you'd probably still use the same names Like the legions of blood Okay And they would have bonuses written into their sub faction rules or whatever that are bonusing vampires and healing vampires and like blah blah blah blah blah And and this you don't see I'm saying it would act like that in the same way that the spoilers Gives you special abilities to your demon princes and heals your demon princes and Yeah And then you would have another faction that would be Uh like the like the cabalists I mean these are really close in parallels. I was thinking about it, right? Because this would be the one that focuses on your casters your people your necromancer everything from the lowly necromancer on up Right, which it's a legion of sacrament like that exists. That's our exactly right But it doesn't and so you can still have like nominally. This is archons thing or normally this is is like in name My point is in name. They're that mortar's faction like they had before Okay, but they build them smartly and so that it's not just about having the mortar and that's kind of the situation Right, it's about having the types of leaders that the mortar represents Sure, what I mean So the legion of sacrament Is like tapping into night like legion of night with you know more of the white kings and the skeleton based stuff I I agree solely. Yes. This is how you could bridge the gap Right you 86 some of the old kids you integrate the new stuff along with whatever you're keeping and you bridge it You use the same names you jettison soul blight as a concept because now they're gonna have their own faction, right? We're gonna make the legions of blood The true vampire faction and one of their allegiance abilities in the legions of blood is just blood lines Right and that's how we integrate that And as well vampires do this extra stuff and vampires get this and vampires can summon Wolves or you know, whatever, right? I don't care like the point is that's you that's how you build it Yeah, it's an incentive structure without pigeonholing. I think that's the key is that I can still run a Hurricane in all of the different cities is just in hallow heart. It does a little more. Yes, and I think for me That's where and I look at this When if I build in a certain way in Under the different more tucks I should get a little bit more in some of my choices and it incentivize without punishing Yes, exactly exactly You know, you can build like a cabalus force in slaves of darkness without going all in on wizards And still have it be a perfectly functional army My argument is that's the right way to go here. You organize it like the cities Of this but under the more s2d framework, right? Okay, so let me just say I think you guys are out of your mind If you think chain gas or if you think hex rates Or any of those things are in this book. Oh, no, no, I don't sorry side note There was one more addendum I wanted to put on my thing My point my big point of disagreement with coach is we're going to fire all the night haunt stuff out of this book It's gone So so I was going I was going to do a tom and let me be clear because I did see some stuff in the chat I I think my stance isn't about putting everything into the book My stance is we need to make a decision if night haunt and sole blight are in or out Right, we can't have we can't have some of the units in the book and some of them not in the unit It's either all in or we're all out. That's where I stand on that Yep. Well, if if that's the case Please understand that they're like We have things that are in other books that could then exclude them from this book So like arc and may not show up in this book then is he's in obr He did show up in obr. I'm gonna get to arc and and gosh in a minute because I gotta I gotta I gotta I got a bone to pick with those two Sure Okay, uh But yeah, like either you fire the night on out. They're their own army. Leave them on their own Period and like, you know, we'll do we've talked about fixing night haunt before right like They need their own attention. They stand on their own. They've got their own mortar They're their own army. They shouldn't be getting into this army's business other than his allies Like obviously they show up on the allies list. Fine. Okay That's it.  He's got his own people. All right The bone daddy has got his bone boys Uh The sad lady she's got all her sad ghosts. Okay This is for These forces here that remain Right, they're the most directly under the control of negash That's where I go That to me seems like that that to me seems like the best solution Right, it kills the old legions book. It gives them a place to put all these new sculpts And it thematically lets them do a strong vampire release While still also reinforcing all of the other stuff that mainly Work for the vampires since those are sort of the primary leadership Okay, so Uh So do skeletons show up here? The original skeletons. Are they still in the book? Is that what you're asking? Yep. Yeah, sure. They keep the kid Yes, because they are classic gothic horror and people want them Like that's that's the answer And and the traditional gothic horror expands. That's what most of the new kits are Okay The only thing that so instead of pulling other books into this by the way Let's now talk about negash and and archie. Okay Talk about all all archie Okay They're going to have their new they're going to have scrolls in here All right, we're going to we're going to reprint both of their scrolls in here again All right, and this time we're going to get it right Third time's a charm. Yeah, that's time. Yes Uh This time is when we nail it okay And There's no more different scrolls for these guys and all this stuff. Stop it Stop it right now There's one negash and he acts like he acts and we're going to rewrite him like archion The reason archion is so cool is because he shows up in one book the slaves to darkness book and I can put him in five armies at least Okay, I can build a slinish army and he drops right in any keywords Right, I can put him in a Nurgle army any keywords he fits perfect great He easily drops in across the board because the way the chaos factions work nega and that's because He is the ultimate leader of chaos undivided Right in the narrative. That's who he is. He is the grand marshal of the apocalypse the ever chosen The three-eyed king the destroyer of the old world All right, so negash is the lord of death all these people are his people literally. They're all just him You know if he like these are all just his puppets So he gets one scroll and it has all the keywords of all the death armies Of relevance here Yeah, basically, uh, probably probably not flesh eater chords Uh for obvious night haunt. Yeah. Yes. Yes He has the night haunt keyword and the osir And he has the this new Armies keyword. He has all three of those probably not fleshers because they feel better like they're on their own because they're kind of We have the night haunt keyword Sweet baby jesus correct. He is the ultimate king. We write him like archion. Just like archion has the heat night keyword Yeah, no archion has all the appropriate keywords to slot right in there This is the same for him negash has all the appropriate keywords. He can slot in any of these armies He's one of their heroes as well. He's the big pop a daddy of all of them.  So it just works He gets the spell all the spells of whatever faction, you know keyword He's currently in or whatever. Okay, like I'm not I didn't whatever allegiance. He is exactly like we you know I'm not writing formal rules here, but you get the idea if he shows up in obr He knows obr stuff. He's a night haunt. He knows night haunt stuff. He's in this book. He knows this book stuff Right because he is negash He is the god of death right and He shouldn't be Having 15 different scrolls and not being able to show up in some of his forces and others he can and Like is he good over here or not here? Like whatever. Let that be an emergent property of how you want to build that army Yep, okay And then he can be worth his 850 80 whatever we decide to put him at points Um, and and by the way, then you sell a lot more of this kit gw Side note You sell a lot more of one of your more expensive centerpiece kits So just a just a cool right because you can be used in all of your armies correct Yeah, for the same reason like if you run any kind of chaos, just go buy an archie. It's a good investment And a fix is one of the biggest one of the biggest issues that uh night haunt has which is that all their heroes are squishy And you you you lose your general and you know, especially like your heroes and it's game over um So you start to really fix and you start to point not just lead you to the cash But you do incentivize and support so much of that army So I I couldn't agree more with what you've just suggested is stop treating the gash like uh morathi or a larial Let's treat him like archion and that should be across the board Yeah, because he represents that here. He doesn't just have one faction under his control, right? Uh, by the way, you mentioned a larial if they ever came out with a full kurnathi army I would want to see a larial work the same way I agree. Yeah, right, right Like these gods should be able to show up in these armies now whether it's a good idea to use them or not That's fine. That's individual army construction and what makes sense, right? Not every chaos army Is like you put you put archie on it at every point in time. That's not always the right answer Now every night haunt army. It is the right answer Yeah, I'm not even knight haunt, you know knight haunt are negash's shock troops yet. I can't actually bring that story to the table Yes, exactly and it just doesn't make any sense and you're right. It would cover a major weakness of knight haunt and it'd be cool Like get him in there as as the leader of all the ghosts Why is there randomly one more tark whom he can't show up in the army of She's like no go home. Yeah, she's like They can work together The more tarks can like get in a room together and all work But if he shows up, she's got to leave like what kind of weird situation is going on here. They're like exes or something um Maybe they are maybe they are who knows, uh, maybe that's why she's so sad. Yeah, exactly what I was just thinking um the The oh, yeah, it's not like an answer a couple things here Joe McGill said or he just has his own spell lore that he only uses in whatever army he plays Yep, I'd be down with that. I'd be super down with that if he just brought around like the eight tomes of negash And it was like eight super cool spells or six scooper super cool spells that he had Yeah, great.  Yes, that would be great Uh And erin says I'd rather not see an ethereal negash on the table I'm not talking about him being ethereal He wouldn't like become ethereal because that's printed on his rule with the change. Yeah I'm like he's still him. He doesn't become ethereal when he joins up with the ghost people He's still a big solid god guy made of bones and god juice or whatever he's made of Uh, but But like he would you know fit in that army would be the point, right? Right? Um, yes, w store and said knight hot can ally with obr. It doesn't matter what the narrative said Yeah, never mind the fact that in the in the uh, wrath of the ever chosen It's literally those two armies working very closely together and Going on a fight together, but sure It shows you that knight horn and legions are so out of touch compared to you know, um, some of the other books that yeah The narrative just doesn't align with the rules Right Right, right And you could do the same thing with arcan or not by the by like he could just be many version of them Because arcan has always been just many negash anyways He's he's just like he's he's negash, but at bargain basement prices. He's just discount negash, you know, that's what he's supposed to be Sure. I understand. I'm not disagreeing He's the trans morphers of negash. Yes, correct Uh So fine, you know, my point is you could rewrite him and do the same exact thing But you know, he might not have like he might not have the the knight haunt keyword since he's not technically Since he has a more target equal level, maybe the only army other army. He shows up and is is the bone daddies, right? That's fine So I You know to me This just feels like the easy slam dunk way to go here and thank you. Yes nine books of gosh I said eight earlier. I apologize. I didn't want to get his book number wrong But to me, this is just the slam dunk method uh Okay You guys mentioned that grave sites were bad at the top of the show, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah Okay, great as as a mechanic It's not working. No Even even the even the regeneration of from grave sites is age of sikma 1.0 Which was command abilities all came from your general and general only right now Like like for me like even just removing that barrier to entry changes the game But yeah, I I agree grave sites nice try. Let's try again. Okay So let's talk about some real fixes here. Okay, so we think we've got some new kits coming out We think we've got some new stuff We've we've all got our own vision of what we think this new book is going to be So you can talk about it in terms of the new book or not or how you'd want to fix it Coach how what are the what are the core allegiance abilities of this Look like now. How do we turn this around? You know, I'm not asking for rules text, right? Just like conceptually What is the new core allegiance abilities look like? for our new vampire part Well for for whatever for whatever this new book is right whatever that way you can Fix death or talk about it in terms of the new book. I'm okay with either right however you envision this thing happening it like For me, I I I mentioned this a few times that it's about making them feel unique and you know I think we all agree here this city slaves type type of version of this And whether that might be just additional rules for different units how we split things out For me grave sites just don't make sense. Um, I would certainly remove grave sites and allow Summonable units to return back closer to Maybe the general is a bit more generous with 18 inches or um, something like that, but for me removing the grave site and and I mean there's so much summoning right now That doesn't require a point on the battlefield and the minute you get on top of that battlefield marker You've denied them yet Nurgle zench Flesh it accords like everyone doesn't have his point on the board. So for me That'd be an easy win would just be drop those those grave sites. Um And are they just rejenning models instead of summoning whole new units back or are they still summoning whole units back? I I really like the idea of the regeneration. I you know, we talked about nostalgia for me You know when I played one of fantasy battles, you know The the the opponent that I played the most actually the opponents, you know shout out to deke and to dav They know who they are the the things for me was that unmovable block of Skeletons and zombies that just kept regenerating with a necromancer hiding in it It was hard for me to target the necromancer And they would regenerate through either combat slaying or from the hero So for me the the two fixes that I certainly want to start with would be one around the regeneration being away from the grave site To I really like the 40k version of lookouts, sir I like the idea of not targeting not being able to target a A model with nine wounds or less Within a certain range of a unit and I think for something like a necromancer it's so easy to shut down a necromancer from afar that By bringing that type of rule specifically to a necromancer when there's a horde of 40 or 60 skeletons and zombies It shouldn't be easy for me to take out a necromancer supporting them So not being able to target them. I think would go a huge way Along with some some tweaks to regen Okay, all right Okay, and that's sort of the core right because I mean, I think we all I think we all agree That the core of this army should be like necromancy, right? That's the that's the core allegiance ability is necromancy like raising the dead and and doing that kind of stuff Right that feels like the core concept If I if I cleave leap if I in my mind legions of negash is that classic traditional gothic horror And you know, we can keep the elites and the shock troops and the other ones into other armies but to me the core of legions of negash is skeleton zombies and the things that support them And for for me, I wouldn't want to remove that and I want to kind of really double down Almost like them make like the the goblins, you know, the the goblins just that unmovable force that just slowly move up the board It's hard to take them down But it's not hard to take them down you take down the necromancer with venhal's dance macabre Uh, you know, the they don't have many heroes. They just crumble really quickly So I think revisiting that with an alternative would would go a long way to to to bring new list design and Um keep me to that classic horror. Okay Tom, what's your feeling? Where are you putting this? Yeah, so let me jump on model or model regen first I think model regen needs to be at the heart of this army period Okay And it feels like the thing they do right It feels like it should be the thing because that's the whole point is that death is not the end For this army this army the core conception is that death is not the end And in fact the gosh gives new life on the other side of death um so First and foremost no matter what sub allegiance you're in. I think that model regen needs to be the heart of it And I think it would need to lean much less on graveyards and more on I'm okay with it being from leaders like using necromantic energies. I'm also okay With it being from like leaching like I would be totally okay if they regen models from killing other models Sure Okay, so like you gain models to your unit by putting bodies in the ground Yep um And in fact or if you like I want to get away from the graveyard conception because just like you don't always fight Near the front of a bad moon shrine like a moon shrine. You're not always fighting on graveyards always right, okay, but what I would rather Rather see them do is something like this When a enemy unit is destroyed Put a grave marker in the spot where the last model was killed okay And then and then the raising, you know, like if you have a passive like bonus to your necromantic raising It's near these graveyard markers where units have died okay, okay all right, um and That's what I would do if if it like if it were me um And I don't hate the idea of returning entire units I see it problematic on a number of different design levels. I think it's lazy um, but if you wanted to do that, I think the fix is the type of fix that we saw with um with Gloomspite interestingly enough, which was like returning at half strength. Sure I I Yeah, I know one of the ideas. Sorry, Tom. Just what wants to talk in my head One one of the things that I when we had grim gas reaper issues Um, you know grim gas reapers a block of 30 coming back for one command point I know that I was really passionate about keeping it But maybe bringing in the 40k version where you you apply multiple stratagems to do A particular thing and maybe you know for me one of the ideas was you know I spend two command points or three command points to bring back a certain unit depending on the size of the unit I'm trying to regenerate so There is something in the summoning You're kind of where I'm I'm gonna go coach. So I think So let me let me first start with Where I'm coming from Okay The way the grave sites worked created perverse incentives And I'm not even talking about just the general thing the fact that only the general can do it And so it created this really weird perverse incentive for your opponent to just Gun down the general with all the force and fury they could have right because if they could bring down the general The whole army shut off You know what I mean like that's we take that Right, you'd never make a necromancer or a white king Um A general because just five wounds and you've lost that whole allegiance ability correct So that created a weird perverse incentive for for you to only have very specific types of generals Right, right now. Secondly the fact that you could could bring a whole unit back for one cp right was Created a different weird incentive which was only max out your unit size Right Like if because why would you spend a cp to get back less than the max unit? Right, if you only took 10 skeletons That's such a waste because the opportunity cost in your mind fires and you go Oh, that could have got that could have been 40 skeletons. I got back Right At the same time the third weird perverse incentive in the army Was around adding this summonable keyword Which created this like really hard winners and losers Right, right, right things that could be returned and things that couldn't right either you were summonable and you were good Or you weren't and you were bad For the most part Right like that was pretty much the division if you weren't summonable You had to punch so far above your weight Right, right to to be like even worth considering Yeah, because you were only going to get one shot Compared to the unit of 40 skeletons or 30 gram gas reapers or whatever Right that I knew hey guess what they're back They get to do it again and again and again right So That's the that's the challenges in my mind, right What we want is we want to have a way to let the undead players feel like they're playing undead Right That's what they want to do and the way that you feel like you're playing undead is You keep making more dead Right the dead grow And and increase as the army goes on they don't get the longer you fight with an undead army. It doesn't get weaker It gets stronger, right, right So Here's my suggestion, okay The And and I I'll openly admit that this probably still needs some refinement, but here's my initial thought Step one is we use a sort of 40k necron reanimation protocols All right for the dead guys But it's tied to having a hero Holy within x-enches of the unit with a pretty decent range and probably like 18 or something, okay Okay, and the necromanic proto or the the yeah, we'll call them the necromanic protocols All right, sure Checked out writes of reanimation. There you go or something like that, right? So everybody that dies and whatever I don't I don't remember exactly how reanimation protocols works in the new edition, but um, you know, it's something like Whatever whatever somebody who's familiar with reanimation protocols could tell me better But the version I'm thinking of is like you put a bunch of guys down You roll a die for everybody who you lost At the end of that turn or at the end of battle shock or whatever, right?  And uh and so like it's uh It's This is happening at the end of the battle truck. You knock dudes down They stand back up because there's a hero nearby, right? And it's always on like a sixth So it's just on like this flat six number And that just handles like your basic guys coming back. Okay now you could have You can have Individual types of units have bonuses to this roll right like When so you could have like basic zombies or basic skeletons have like a plus one to the roll So they start standing back up on a five plus or something like that You see what I'm saying So like when you make a reanimation roll for this reanimation writes a reanimation roll for this unit add plus one to the roll You know whatever, okay And so it's only happening once right it's happening at the end of the round is my point you take all your dead You mark them at the end of the round Guy stand back up Okay now, uh Okay, cool. Yeah, so uh joseph said how it works is you pull the models and then roll equal to the wounds profile of everything That died providing a model is still alive in that unit. Okay, cool so Then the other question is what if a unit is totally wiped out? All right, and and by the way the trick with this writes of reanimation is it's working on Uh That i'm proposing here and again if this isn't exactly like necrons. I don't care. I'm not trying to remake necrons, right? I'm trying to make it to me. It's an example of exactly. I'm using this as a concept. Okay So That then and somebody said is it is it somewhat like fec? Yeah a little bit fec kind of works like this, right? And with fec, it's like some of the quartiers. They all get to roll It's kind of different values and two pluses you can return ghouls and five pluses You can return the big guys and you know, whatever right yada yada That's but that happens in the hero phase and it's it's cool like but this is kind of similar, right? um And we don't need summonable for this because it's just happening right and I don't care if it's a blood night Or a whatever you roll the die on a six a guy comes back You're on elite units. You'll get less rolls. So if you get one back, it's more valuable, right? And then what you've got is Buried in the allegiance ability you have an ability just called summon undead okay And You trigger it Maybe something like the ravagers or maybe something like that Where you can spend a command point once or twice around to get to to summon a basic unit 10 or whatever of these guys of this list This discrete list of things has nothing to do with what you were in your initial list right and the uh It's it's not so let me address grungovaldi. He said it's worth that worse deathless minions. It's absolutely not Okay, because I'm one. I'm not taking away deathless minions.  I'm suggesting that the units could have bonuses that are appropriate for them Okay, and you can then play with that mechanic So for example, if you're in the legions of blood and that's like your whole big thing and it's a vampire focused thing You could make a rule like blood knights get plus three to their rights of reanimation role in this army It's a modest engine might support it. I can't I can't type build right then give you pluses or extend the range Um, I like I like the idea. They keep that feels deaf without Yeah, that that feels death to me When I think about my Dungeons and Dragons or even one of fantasy or just what I see in the movies It's this undying horde as you said they get stronger and stronger as more bodies are amassed Right And so what the heroes have for the old summoning instead of like your graveyard Graveyards are gone Instead they can just summon basic undead and that's just a command point right and they can do so Maybe there's some kind of limit on it. Maybe there's some kind of you know, I don't know what the balancing mechanic is I'd rather it not be some kind of currency you have to build up like the chaos summoning Right, I feel like it's summoning basic units of like 10 skeletons or 10 zombies or basic dire wolves Like the stuff vampires summon or undead leaders summon, right? They stand up 10 zombies and The idea would be there then they can just bring them on Now alternatively you could also have the rule that if one of these unit exists units exist You may just spend the command point to add the 10 models directly into that unit or whatever, right?  Yep Uh On something like the rights of reanimation It could be fed with a bonus if you wiped out a unit or did wounds To an enemy unit in the combat phase or whatever like that's another way you could do it in addition to by the way Just saying like if this unit slays any of my bath Yeah, add a d6 models to it or something like that, right? You could actually have that happening, right? So but if you're standing up if your basic summon is five dire wolves or 10 skeletons or 10 zombies or Some fel bats. I don't know.  You have a cool summoning mechanic It's you it's as useful and as game breaking theoretically as something like the ravagers are Right, right where it's a cool ability, but it's not the defining trait of the army You've got guys that you can put them down easy, but they keep getting back up Right because their numbers keep growing through this rights of reanimation And then you can tool the rights bonus to each unit and each sub faction where appropriate If this is the one that's good at like if the magic necromancy one is the one that's good at like just churning out undead then they're getting big bonuses with skeletons and zombies sure What what comes to my mind and I don't know if this is similar or different to yours vince But I think about the slot and I think about sacrificing a spell cast to kind of tap into those portents I wonder if it's the the necromancer Sacrificing their spell cast in order to tap into that death magic to reanimate Okay, okay Yeah, I mean I think that there's there's just so much potential there Some people have been talking about some other ideas Joseph said I'm not super familiar with aos, but would multi-wound normal zombies be absurd No, I think it'd be cool. I would love monster zombies. I hope we get monster zombies at some point in time I love the idea of ogre zombies or big things like that I think that would be sweet as all get out. It'd be super easy Like you could have it as a shock troop unit. It's not hard. I mean we already have Close versions of that in things like cryptors, which are big ghouls, you know ogre ish ghouls So why not have ogre ish zombies? Do they keep their death safe? Yeah, just death in general. Yeah Yes, it's it's it's still tied to heroes being nearby Uh Yes, I think ultimately that's a good idea to tie it to that But you know what but here's the thing I wouldn't go to the mattresses for that like my preference. Yes a big bubble Does it need to be honestly? No If it was just a straight six up and it's always a six up and there's no way to bonus it if there are zero bonuses to that in the book Okay Yep, which is how most of these should be written by the way We need just we need to wheel back on this feel no pain crap I don't like like I I am a longtime aider of hagnar and everything about it Okay I am not yeah, I understand uh, but the But the con because you like broken cheaty stuff. That's not fun to play against. Um, but the um but the Like just having that six up. I mean, okay. I mean daughters of kane have a six up all the time I don't feel like just having that six up is breaking the bank in any way You know like okay have that's cool Like yeah, they're just dead things that are often very resistant to damage So Yes, it's hard to kill them. That's what the six up represents, right? Like there's always a chance you just hit something that wasn't important in them even when you get away There's no vital organs to take down a zombie or skeleton, right? Yeah, I mean like okay cool beans So to me, no, it doesn't have to be tied to the heroes. I I I guess it's I'd probably rather it be but I don't need it to be I would say based on what the other allegiance abilities are in total is my answer to that question Okay I'm just trying to figure out like how much of this is actually different like Then what is currently there? I think my I think those return mechanics are very different I mean Yes, because it gets rid of all the perverse incentives It it also seems to be a lot of accounting as well like how many bonuses do I get? What what are my pluses for returning yada yada? I mean one You're not totally wrong I don't I don't completely disagree with you To I'm just coming at it from a development point of like it seems really complicated I think for the most part I could I could get a version of it That's pretty simple because if we're talking about like most units are on a six They probably don't have a bonus built in or they have one bonus built in either from their sub faction or on the scroll This is my number and you're going to know that number because it's always that number Right, you're not actually accounting and bookkeeping. They have a static number Blood knights in this faction have a static number. They are hitting It is less complicated than zinch bookkeeping certainly a lot less than slanish bookkeeping, which is very bad it's not it's not even like Lumineth realm lords bookkeeping in seer or something right Like because the number is the number The bonuses come in list building not in the game where you're tracking something Right, and there's a difference between the aggregation of numbers in list building and the aggregation of numbers in game It's true. It's true Yeah, I I think I am just coming at it from I think that we I think what we have coming is going to be fundamentally On one hand Different than legions of negash where what I'm hearing from both of you is that the book that is forthcoming is legions of negash 2.0 No, not necessarily I I think I'm looking at this at a lens of fixing legions of negash Not preparing what I think is going to be this upcoming book If I think about what I think this upcoming vampirates or soul blight is going to look like I think it's it's all being tied into bloodlines like we had in the old vampire counts I think we're getting an increase on the armor save of a vampire lord on zombie dragon I think we get mount traits for things like vampire zombie dragons and terror geists I think we we get high armored shot troop probably very similar to a um like a lord on kakadrak with chaos knights and Varen guard that's to me what I foresee as soul blight Maybe some thralls maybe something like something like that, but I'm not looking I'm not looking at the rules that vince is talking about for this vampires I'm more thinking about your traditional death rattle your dead walkers your manfred jerar kens your nefaradas Yeah, and what I would argue is that I think the I think the more tar I think two of the more tarks Will show up in this book. So I think the I think nepharadas and I think Uh Manfred's armies will be in this new book. I don't think that they will be separate in In a legion like in a legions 2.0 book I think they will be the heart of the vampire book itself You could argue that prince forger is going to be in that as well I think he probably will Although again, let me like let me state. I think that um, I think we will see Like and so when I'm saying this like I'm wanting to differentiate because I think that What we have coming is going to be very vampire centric and it could still have skeletons in there. So please hear me Um, but I think and so what I'm hearing you guys talk about Like I think it may even be split apart even more than what you guys have talked about I think you're talking about another book. That's not what's coming. Okay. That's what I would Okay, I I would agree. I I think I where I'm talking about legions of negash Uh, and then we separate soul blight into whatever it might be vampire counts 2.0 Uh, the necrotic magic that vince is talking about Yep Yeah, there's a lot of these units aren't going to be in it. There won't be synergies like we're talking about um I would personally struggle to see a lot of zombie stuff in a In a vampire army. There's just things you don't see and agreed classic horror Agreed like I could see skeletons. I don't know that I could see zombies I could see gargoyles. I can see these direwolves. I can see these things That's what comes into my mind when I think of vampires there Heck, you know bring in the um, the what's it called not the corpse cart the um, the The thing that I can't take um in in leans of the gash the carbon throne Are the other one black?  So I can see like I can see that in there But uh, there's a lot of stuff like the mortis engine or the necrotic stuff And and you look at legions in a gash it is clearly separated. You've got the lore of vampires You've got the lore of necromancy So that's probably where I see the differences between what's coming and what we currently got Okay, no fair, uh, all right What else do we need to to talk about? I mean like because assumingly if we're rewriting all this the army's now working completely different, right? so What else I don't let's let's let's bring this to a close here soon. Okay, but I want to talk about the fundamentals What are the elements because I that that That this army legions of negation again, you can look at this through how you think a new book's gonna play Or how the eventual legions book because you tom you're saying they're two separate things super cool I'm fine with that What but what are the fundamentals of how this of how legions needs to play to be competitive? Like what doesn't it have what's its play style? How is it working? How is it being competitive? Because we can't just say well it returns models hence it wins Right, that's not an argument Does that make sense?  It needs to be a debuff heavy attrition army, okay that wins by grinding down the opponent okay Like to me that's what this army is. It is the it is the inevitable defeat of uh of of Of just grinding on an unending hordes That's and that's why I don't think like I don't think vampire I don't think blood knights have a place in this army. Okay Like I would go on to even say like I could see vampires being in the army But they're not the heart of the army The heart of the army is things that have been uh raised by outlandish Magic like necromanic magic, okay, and raised and sustained Does that make sense and so like vampires don't fit into that Like and that's why I think that it gets split off Is because vampires are about like sucking sustenance from the enemy And so I would see a lot of like unit healing and unit restoring Um, but not a lot of unit replacement where I could even see unit replacement With this type of like mass horde body, you know thing So That's where I would create some differentiation Coach what about you? As we've talked through this show, I think my opinions have slightly changed and you know hearing your feedback and your thoughts from both of you I'm I'm I can see different things And what we're talking about reminds me if we did this show 20 years ago in warhammer fantasy battles I think fourth edition when the undead army book was split into tomb kings and vampire accounts because back then Your mummies your zombies your tomb kings stuff was all in this encompassing book And then they split it out to be two distinct