Poured way too much of this. All right, Jimmy. You want to you want to welcome back to liana's library? Well, we are covering in our read-along of a song of ice and fire going back into Essos and Westeros The feast for a feast for crows. I'm sorry a feast for crows. Leanna has a dope addition I have the folio and Alex over here is rocking the mass market paperback, which is just I am a peasant He says we have a dope addition and then it's like, I mean, I have a folio No, you know how you know how little I care about my mass markets I let my one-year-old wander into my office and just play with them. That's how little I care about mass markets I will say I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Jimmy. Are you drinking scotch out of what is that? This is a Omgang brewery Your glass. Yes gang. What?  I had to drink this because it's the song of ice and fire golden wine Yes, it's a golden one. Oh my oh my oh my So feast for crows, I feel like what is it?  Don't I this is the best one for sure I dance with dragons is dope too though. Yeah They are good. They are I mean they make sense but also after a clash of Kings and Storm of Swords, I'm irritated at the lack of alliteration and face across Yeah, he kind of broke that didn't he I mean Game of Thrones didn't have it and then we started doing a thing with Clash of Kings and Storm of Swords and I was like, oh and then face for crows What? Whatever it kind of apt to because a lot of the things and about the series change starting at these for crows Even the chapter titles become different, right? It kind of threw me off. That's what I said No, Jimmy. Did he maybe maybe Jimmy are our Martin is busy writing Winds of Winter That's what it is. We all know that's right. It's true But yeah, I mean so a lot of the titles are it's like care instead of just giving you new character names They just it's like a name of a title that has nothing. It's just like I Guess kind of what the character is about. It's weird. Yeah, I actually kind of like it I'll get I'll get my stupid princess in the tower is the one I remember because it's the last one that's named the river I'm gonna get the book go for it. Hold on my best. Please halt all conversation for 10 seconds. We'll do Well, well Alex has gone we can show off our cool clothes because he doesn't have cool clothes All right, so as I was saying the princess in the tower Red we get it.  I had just come off the high of storm of sorts Yeah, but this time I was like this is the garbage one and I went and I was like actually this is fine Yeah, I would agree with that and I do think that George in even we're gonna see it again in dance I think his writing got better each time out. I really do This is definitely the book that improves the most on the reread though I can say that for sure because my my first two rereads. I are reads or whatever I also thought feast was weak and Then I feel like the more I read it the more I kind of love it. Yeah, which I'm finding okay So we're we're five minutes in time to mention Abercrombie I find that like the books that like I love the most for Abercrombie for any like but any like books that I Just find reasons to talk about Joe Abercrombie No, it's just always relevant But like when I've been when I've a lot of times I've reread those books like usually the ones that like the first time through I was like wow the second time through I'm like not as wow But the other like they're sleepers the ones that I was like that was fine And then like I reread it and I reread it. I'm like actually like this might be my favorite Because like it just has more of like it's like it's like the best friends that ends up being the like love interest at the end You know like they were always there quiet They were always there for you and you didn't appreciate them and then like by the end you're like this is my favorite Yeah, I think that also this is a very good case of the book reads you In the mood that I was in after Specifically the first two times like just being captivated by Storm of Swords so much I don't always captivated by that book but letting feast tell its own tale in a lot of ways I think is the appropriate way of going about it And I also have found arcs in this book that before I did not care for as much to really grip me this time Specifically the Iron Islands, which I have been a hater I was gonna say I'm the one that's actually been vocally supportive of the Iron Islands I mean the Kingsmoot the whole atmosphere and that's something that is so good It's so good and you're on has to be one of the most captivating characters But I would even say the Victorian is I mean he's a dastardly bastard, but he He's he's pretty compelling. He's I just always sound like the Iron Islands like to be one of the things and song I find that as Brilliant as everything is a lot of it feels like but this is a redux of European history Sure, whereas like Iron Islands and like some stuff with like Old Valeria and when you get into like the north and the the green men and the first like that stuff That's when it's like peak Georgia or Martin just like inventing a thing And so I think that's why I enjoy the Iron Islands so much because it's not as like Wibbly wobbly and bizarre as like the you know the stuff like be on the wall or whatever But it is quite Unique to this world and unique to George R. Martin's invention. It's like a spin on like Vikings, but in But different yeah, but at the same time like it was only like after I heard myself Describing the Iron Islands that I was like I guess I could be describing Vikings But I never read them as like oh, this is his version of Vikings like I just didn't even think of it I was like this is his own thing. Yeah, I'm saying like if you were to compare it to something It's like his version of like pirates or Vikings or some kind of just like Barbaric by nature like we conquer to take everything kind of people we do not so But like I mean even when I read first law, I'm like the Northman Okay, those are like Vikings, but like when I read the Iron Islands, I'm like they're the Iron Islands Like I'm not comparing anything else. Yeah, I think it's also one of the better Examples of George doing like a whole different place and really having a feel even in the way that they talk and one of the best things that I Think a song of ice fire offers is religion Not even really a critique on religion, but just really good religions like I'm not on my taxes Like the next time they do the census I may say Lord of Light I don't know well It feels almost again like in when you study like or like religious studies, you know like in University or like comparative Relate like world religions like it feels like that where it's kind of almost like anthropological cultural history We're like it feels very layered and complex and messy and and like where it's illogical It feels appropriate for to be illogical because a lot of faith and tradition is inherently Filled with paradoxes and yes, it's yeah, it's real good and also like the Mystique of being drowned and brought back to life with the drowned God I mean, that's what it opens. I'm not the prologue, but it's what chapter one is is the prophet Yeah, and it's again like the whole like you literally die in your like baptism and are brought back to life like how metal I really really enjoyed that a lot more this time around like I've I've read the series quite a few times and I've never really clicked with the Iron Islands past the on and This is the time where I think it's really clicked with me And I love that someone brought up Lovecraft because there is descriptions about the Riverlands there being swamps that will eat you alive She was tearing up, which we know is Nymeria It's very Lovecraftian. Yeah, talk about the quiet aisle. I think in this book as well, which is definitely Lovecraft inspired Which is cool because this is a horror book like this is George's kind of dip into horror Which I think he touches into a lot But I think what also makes it feel really real is that like a lot of books will make the mistake of like when it mentions Religion, it's only brought up when it comes to like, you know, this is this is what we believe and this is seriously We believe and here's the tenants of the faith and here's like some faithful person Here's like a seer or like a Shaman and he's gonna tell you what we think but like where it feels real is when you see the common people and their Relationship to the faith which is like not necessarily even knowing what the faith is but the way that it's like built into how they talk or it's like built into like their worldview and It's that like peasant version of the faith that they don't necessarily get But it's definitely part of their lives that like it makes it feel real Yeah, and their convictions sometimes come from their gods, especially in the Iron Islands Lawrence is the first time she's read Feast for Crows and she loved it. That is awesome More than that makes me so happy.  Yeah Just remember our chat about a storm of swords like the fight at the wall the red wedding the purple wedding like So much crap happened in that book that you're just like, oh, yeah this book is all of the epic scenes put into a book and then a Feast for Crows is like Much more slow and you're introducing new characters and you're learning more about the Iron Islands and Dorn and like more It's slow kind of like political stuff when like all of the big events just happen Like you kind of need that time to breathe and that's probably why I mean obviously like if you read stuff as it comes out in publication If you're coming off of a storm of swords and then whatever the wait period was to Feast was it like five years? Six years, whatever it was. I think it was five years Yeah, and then to have like a much slower pace book and I actually wrote it down Which is part of the reason why people probably hate it is just like POVs that you had up to this point That you now don't get any of in this book period No, John the on Danny brand Tyrion like they're all gone entirely So it's like that's a kind of like a shocking change to just be like, yeah all of these characters You don't get to see him for an entire book. Yeah, I think I remember Mike actually mentioning how he was so disappointed that he waited like five years and then didn't get a Tyrion POV And I can actually understand that to be honest with you I didn't have to wait so it didn't matter to me and then I do think that that's important to discuss speak Maybe not you discuss but acknowledge the fact that binging something and reading it on real. Oh, yeah There's a totally different experience. I think Dark Tower is another one that a lot of people had issues with as it released And I just loved it So I it's worth mentioning, you know, the fact that there was the kind of Geographical split of POVs, which I didn't know this but apparently Daniel Abraham is the reason why that happened Daniel Abraham told George that that was the best case. I feel like I learned that from you Yeah, I think I might I'm maybe it might have been Alex. Did you mention it? Yeah, I don't remember I heard that but it was recent. Nope. I think you mentioned it on one of these streams I might have I might have Everything is just jumbled in my head at this point, you know Did you did you guys like this pro like where does this prologue rank for you because for me? It's really high. I Mean I like it better than the storm prologue. I agree with that. Yeah, I don't think any of the prologue Is as good as the clash prologue. Mm-hmm. I mean clash prologues, but I think my second favorite prologue is the first prologue I think it goes like clash game others. Yeah. Yeah, I'm excited reread dances prologue This time and see what I think of it because I don't think I paid attention to the prologues enough because we Get some pretty important information in this one like we see a lesser noble in the Tyrell household and Leo Tyrell Who's a complete jerk off? We see the sphinx which is also a great name by the way, I know it's simple, but I love it Which is I think it goes by a rally us here in the old town But we and the deuce by context clues in the book that it's actually Sarela Sam Which is one of Oberyn's bastard daughters from Dorn and she's playing her game, which is fascinating And then we get the citadel I mean old towns we know Tyrion mentioned that the only book about the death of the dragons is locked away in The bottom of the citadel. Yeah, so we're seeing this like first hand And then you know pate said dummy. He just wants to date Rosie. He's just simping hard For me simpson these books. Yeah, and the glass candles are burning in this prologue Which we know that has been referenced by quay to Danny multiple times So this is this is another kind of like perke years up moment and then the alchemist at the end of the At the end of the prologue kills our boy pate and I think we all yeah, I think we all can deduce that that is Jake and hugar Which is wild? To see him kind of come back. He's dead though, bro Jake and switched his face and it was the exact same description of Jake and space after he switched with Arias I mean Jack and hugar Jack and hugar. There is a faceless man in the citadel. Yeah about that. How about that? So it's like when people talk about Prince the artist formerly known as Prince like the man formerly known as Jack and hugar Yes, he's not jacking anymore. Now. He's just whoever Yeah, one a man has no name There's a really interesting piece whenever pate gets the coin from the alchemist and he looks at it And he says I don't recognize this king And then aria is in the house of black and white and sees gold and it's the same coin And that's how you can that's like the definitive proof that it's Jake and beyond the description But also, do you think that those coins are from the black fire rebellion?  Thought that was really interesting and it's not something I picked up on prior I don't even know. There's so many like so much theory crafting that I've like forgotten to even Reload into at this point. It's very subtle Very very subtle especially in this book And that's why I think people give this book a really hard time and dance in some regards Because we don't have wins and wins is the next storm of swords If you think about Clash of Kings in Game of Thrones a lot of stuff does happen But man a lot of ground gets laid Before that happens, you know, some people actually find Clash of Kings to also be a bit of a slog Which I don't but there are people who do and I think that We don't give feasts the past because we don't have the payoff yet and maybe never will so But I think on its own right. There's a lot of really good Well, but I mean also Clash has like lots and lots of Tyrion Yeah, so like feast feast is just like it's in addition to like the plot not necessarily having a ton of payoffs It's also a bunch of new people that you don't really care about yet Yeah, like the characters in Clash like we all cared about from Game of Thrones Absolutely, you're and then like you don't mind if they're like faffing around a bit But like feast is like not that much payoff in terms of like a plot events and it's a bunch of new people So you're just like what is this? Yeah, like we'll get into it But like just because I marked down all the pavs that we had and some of them are like in the same chapter, right? Yeah, but I mean between Dorn you get Five characters that you're seeing perspective of because you got aria and aria ares Quentin and Doran unless I've missed some In the Iron Islands you got Asha, Eron, Victarion and some of Euron I mean you're not really in his POV But like you get a lot of Euron and then you have Jaime who carries the book You have Cersei who's like the other big one and then Brienne, Sam and aria So I mean you you have five characters you're familiar with and then like I don't know three six eight Like nine ten characters that you're learning about so I mean that's that's kind of why because you take Probably 50 at least 50% of the book to learn about new stuff But like it's weird because like when I before this reread and the Song of Ice and Fire like a lot of it Just kind of like blurred together into like one lump and like there were specific things that I remember for Like I knew the Red Wedding is in Storm of Swords like obviously Yes, and I remember that Feast for Crows is like half of Dan's and therefore like limited and in my mind Feast for Crows is just non-stop being exhausted reading Cersei and being just like And then door and I'm like what is Dorn? So like but it's weird because like in the jumble of like a song of ice and fire and things I like about a song of ice and fire. I was like, well, I love the Iron Islands. I love Jaime I love how weird Arya's plot line gets when she's with like the faceless man, and I was like, that's all in Feast Yeah, I was like actually And I'll tell you what I actually I think Sam well does a damn good job in this book of being interesting and getting Amon's last moments And there's some really good foreshadowing there and him being the one that's going to the Citadel and Amon while he's dying Having this dream and he says the Stinks is not the Riddler. It's the Riddle and it's like, oh boy Sam well spot. He's just gonna have a bad time And you know, obviously when he gets there, it's really cool and stuff But I want to ask you guys this because we kind of covered this in the last stream And I've been dying to see what you guys think now that we've reread Feast with with this kind of perspective of being experienced readers of the series What do you think about the five-year gap debate? As far as doing a time jump. Yes, because I will say this I have been saying pretty much to this reread that I think the five-year gap was a must it would have been better And now I actually don't agree with myself anymore. I think I take it back For a couple different reasons, but I'd love to hear what you guys think I mean one, I feel like I don't know what his actual plan was of covering that gap I think it makes sense of where you left off in a storm of swords Like where better than to do a time jump then because you just killed a bunch of Starks You've got Tyrion getting smuggled out of King's Landing and Then like every like now would be a good time to do that My biggest gripe is just the age of characters is gonna get kind of silly Just because like I mean ultimately it doesn't really matter like you could write the story and just not have them aged that much I guess, but if you break it down of like, oh, this only took three years like then it kind of gets strange I don't know. It just it kind of depends on what wins does honestly, I don't I think it's hard to say so apparently feast is in a lot of ways the five-year gap and what it represented and So for people wondering maybe people don't know we should but I guess we should by define the five-year gap George had always had the plan going through the books that he was gonna do a five-year gap after The events that happened a storm of swords in the red wedding However, he felt like characters grew on him and he eventually he started writing The the next book and then scrapped it after a significant amount of writing and the reason why it doesn't work is because of Stannis Cersei and John Though what would you do have Stannis sit at the wall for five years? I was actually thinking in terms of just what's going on in Dorn like what they want to do with Marcella You'd have to do immediately. That's right And also you have to show the fallout of Oberon Martell falling because he was such an important figure and in Dorn is hot-blooded They would not sit around for five years That's why they have issues with Dorn because Dorn's actually a great player of the Game of Thrones, but And honestly like the fact that in the eerie the fact that we lost Liza like they wouldn't be just chill for five years That's exactly right little finger is a big piece of that So I mean, I wonder if ultimately he'll just feel like he wish he had aged things up at the beginning rather than do a five-year time jump to do that because You can accept it at face value of like, okay It's been five years since the red wedding happened But it's like but then if you think about that for more than 30 seconds like that doesn't make sense because Everyone just be sitting there before when we talked about five years And I was like the only way I see that working is if it had just been like dispersed where like everything in the books Took a little bit longer so that by the time you get to dance like more time just has passed But not that any we had a gap just that like every single piece of it took a little longer So that's emulatively with their older now Yeah, and I think George was quoted as saying if a 12-year-old has to save the goddamn world Then they will and I was like, you know what it's fantasy. Let's go I mean that does help how medieval the world is because like people did inherit power at very young ages like people You know retirement and death was 30.   So like you can't have a gap Yeah, and also I think it George is I think he has a pretty intimate relationship with the reader because of how little time passes with these stories In like the house of black and white and in the veil are both extraordinarily important to the growth of Sansa and aria And the reason why is the this is where they're learning This is where their next big change comes from so if he had done a five-year gap He would have had to say hey just trust me aria is a deadly assassin Just trust me Sansa phenomenal schemer and politician. Yes She was a frightened girl at the end of storm But trust me it happened. He said you know what that's not right for those characters And he's he said I'll show you instead of telling you and I actually think that that was the right call I do So I've retract I think in the last three I even said I'm gonna tell you why the five-year gap was a bad idea I'm wrong. I think I'm wrong. So yeah Oh Man Well, you heard it here folks Jimmy was wrong. I'm wrong a lot of the time fire you could ask any of my friends I'm wrong most of the way you have friends you too But yeah, like we haven't okay So we've just like been talking about our impressions and like the reread versus our first read and just very general stuff But like we haven't what is our system? We go through a character and usually we just cover that character Yeah, I think that's a good. I like that flow. I think Well, the way that these are written that's the flow that I think makes the most sense because it isn't really have like Acts because it's all just kind of following characters And I feel like to some degree when these books if they feel like slogs That's why because like more traditionally told stories Even if they have multiple perspectives feel more like you have the first act and the second act and the climax Where is like here? It's just kind of like jumping around like what are you up to okay? Well, we'll catch up with you later. Now. What are you up to okay? We'll catch up with you later like what are you up to and like by the time you finish a book You're like what how it's like one day passed by the time we jump from everybody like around When you have this many characters and all these different plot threads you're trying to get it through it's like Yeah, kind of and that's why those intricacies get missed like the very subtle References like Jamie heard a lot of stuff from the Starks that pays off in this book I got it's a major moment that we'll talk about and he heard it while he was captured and it's like I missed that totally. I've read these things like five or six times and I didn't notice it until now Because of the way it's okay, Jamie. We believe that you're a fan calm down.  No promises They can fake fan confirmed. All right, so then who should we start with first area Hota? the goat Go ahead Jimmy start us off. Well first off He's important because he gives us the first introduction to Dorn and I don't know about you guys but meeting the sand snakes and meeting Dorn and talking to Dorn and him watching the kids play I mean, I thought it just painted such a good picture That was different from any kind of like the Iron Islands different from anything that we've seen in the series The Dorn is so cool. I mean like George Martin is really good at setting. He really is Yeah, sure. Yeah setting and also the difference and Unfortunate and I think we should probably talk about this at some point too George writes a lot of sex right and he writes a lot about the sexual nature of the societies that we're in and Dorn is very Sexual well open right a very open and that becomes very apparent quickly And also we kind of knew that from Oberyn right Oberyn was a bit of a Chad. I Just wanted to say that That's my literary analysis But there's so much political interest immediately because of Oberyn's death And I will say like the number of times fiery peppery fiery peppers are mentioned. I'm like, we get it He definitely loves describing the spice of the food. Oh, yeah, for sure Yeah, every time a description of food start is like, let me guess there's fiery Dornish peppers in there and there they are they really burn on the way out That's like what George is trying to get across to your folks It's probably too far back in our chat, but I remember Mentioning a specific sex scene. I think from this book and I was just like, oh, it's never Instagram chats And I was just like this is yeah, I don't need to know this. This is a bit of a general statement But I do think if there's a detractor to Grimm's work I do think he does seem to edge into voyeurism at times Yeah, and and I don't say that lightly is like by my favorite author But like it's true I think that he does go into a way too much detail in a very non-natural way, especially from a female's perspective I'm like the way that like the words that he uses and it's founded It's like when I'm trying to gross out my wife like that's that's the shit I say like most is Disgusting which like I mean, I think that's also like the slight difference there between like the these scenes Which I feel like they're meant to not be like super romantic romance novel scenes They're not meant to be that but they're also not like they don't feel like they're supposed to be intentionally Gross the way Abercrombie's are because like Abercrombie right sex scenes But you're like, okay, you're trying very hard to make this like aggressively gross Yeah, it makes it feel like George is like getting something out of it, which is just yeah That's why it's like we're in this middle zone where you're like This is not romanticized But like I don't feel like you're purposely being like I gotta make this super gross like it's more just like I think you like this Yeah, it feels like he enjoys writing it The only thing I will say is I think that for Cersei's character arc It actually makes sense to divulge into the details But it is cheapened by the fact that he then describes Sam well and gilly and and whatever else I was literally just reading the Sam and gilly sexy. It's so rough and if it was only from Cersei's POV I would say that that is a good command on perspective because Cersei is a deviant in a lot of ways And I think that it is actually a piece of her downfall is that she gives in to her desires unfortunately Every sex scene is almost described the same way and I do think it the edges on the Again, like also like having if it was like more featured with like only Cersei or like yeah specific characters Then it also serves as a greater Counterpoint to people like Stannis who aren't like specifically calling out. Yeah, as opposed to it just being like Just oh that's just George instead of like oh, this is how the character is like storm of swords like the Tyrion and Shea Scene was a lot like the same in the gilly scene too It's like I feel like Girm was just like having a little bit too much fun like fantasizing in that moment Yeah, it's a bit of male fantasy and I'm not even also like okay, so like I Understand the urge to write that scene But I feel like that you write that scene last night and then next morning when you're going over You're like, okay. I had fun with that but delete delete. We didn't actually need to keep that like, you know what I mean Yeah, I won't read it the whole paragraph, but this is where we get the fat pink mast Which is just Just fantastic Drink to that I Kind of love it That's a good point. Oh Girm is Sam. Oh, yeah, he is Sam that is true That is his stand-in. I think Daria actually pretty much that that's what I would my point I was making Daria's that Cersei somehow work for her sex is literally how she sees power being transacted. Yeah, I That's true. Well, and yeah, it's also just the This idea which Cersei holds a little more I don't know like there is a very sort of like men dominating on a battlefield men dominating in the bedroom and to her Like being able to dominate in the bedroom is an extension of her desire to dominate Oh, yeah That's what she even does in the bedroom when she's like, you know I'm gonna try to like take the band's part here and it's like less of a kink and more of like a I want to like be a ruler and dude and like yeah, because she's thinking about Robert and she's just like I wonder if this is what Robert felt like when he bedded me. So I mean it makes sense that she's just like Hungry for hungry and desperate for power pretty much all the time Yeah, and it almost makes her seem like she was envious of Robert's power in that moment rather than the rather than Affected by the abuse that it was. Yeah, which is a very demented way of thinking about this Omar I kind of like he said but honestly though with Sam him having to do what he did with Gilly was really essential to his character In the uses of Sam's parts fat pink mask It does not inform to how Sam views himself not proudly and I actually think that you're right Omar With that said, I think it could have been maybe a little more brief or less descriptive But I do agree with what you're saying. Yeah, I'm love seed on the leg It's like his favorite thing in the world. It's just gotta describe that it that it's there Yeah, Cersei was very influenced by Robert. I think like I think the reason we don't have like the hugest problem And but we are calling it out is that it's like there are reasons to have this here It's just at times in a specific scene It just like goes a little too long a little too far a little too often So it's not that like none of this should be here. There's no reason for this. It's just that like Sometimes it's a It like overstays its welcome It's relevance, but how about this I'd rather have this than someone that's very prudish about their sex scenes But have like infatuations with it. Yeah, and I'm thinking specifically and I'm not like trying to shit on this person But like Robert Jordan in a lot of ways I thought was very prudish with his sexual writing But yeah, like he clearly was fascinated with certain aspects of it, but he would not like divulge and it's like come on Yeah, it's a very American thing if you get it's a yeah I mean, it's like the the like the lights turn off and like yeah, they did fade to black Yeah, because I mean Brandon Sanderson does that and like that makes sense knowing who Brandon Sanderson is Robert Jordan before writing the Wheel of Time Wrote some very sexual So it's like to but he clearly wanted to like have three characters and love with the main character and like I just feel like it like to a greater or lesser degree and even like that your mileage may vary So there's no universal standard for this But like I feel like some books go so far out of their way to not have it that it's weird And some books go way too far out of the way to have it which is weird And it's just like there are like again there your mileage may vary But like readers can kind of tell like oh this was like important to the character important to the plot and like if you avoided showing it It would be weird and there's other times you're like this is you know Important to the character important to the plot but like a change showed it too much yeah, like I Think it is an American thing though too because there's a lot of people like for instance Guy Gabriel Kay writes a lot of sex in his books and I and I do I actually enjoy his sex scenes I think he goes to the well sometimes a little too much, but that's just a subjective opinion Yeah, but it is interesting in American or American in America. I was reading the comments in Americans But in America we are all for the violence. Oh, yeah, we'll show people getting stabbed on the five o'clock news But any who-who dilly in the cha-cha? We're just looking at like the rating scale for films like PG-13 all the violence You have like one boob in there. It's rated R. Yep No sexual content.  I was just like again Yeah Okay, it's me. I think he's a fantastic writer But like after the sick sex scene I'm like, I think I get it Like I think I got it man You're making a commentary on how societies during wartime change the way that sex is like I get it Yeah, let's move on, you know And I do think that feast in some ways had that for me just a little bit where it went into voyeurism rather than I think Dairy even said informative and I think well, yeah, I mean at a certain point It's like, okay, you're clearly just you're writing this scene for you like yeah It's a little bit detailed we're just at the typewriter a little late one night Had a little too much of that arbor gold and said, let me let me write something for old Georgie poor Georgie Yeah, but like no more mentioned Stephen King and I think that's to like the violence aspect perhaps because Stephen King will just like murder children in his books and like yeah doesn't pull punches whatsoever It just it doesn't matter.  Who cares? But you show the sex scene if you're like, oh my god, yeah, it is interesting what we're willing to put up with And I think it does divulge down to culture For sure it does. Yeah All right, so anyway, yeah Do we want to talk about Cersei because we kind of like our I mean when you're talking about sex you got to mention Cersei, right? So I think I think this is actually a really good point for like why it feels weird Let's see what In character perspective George. Yeah, that's what we're saying is like he's writing it for himself It's not like like that. It's not just like you thinking that he's writing for himself Like the way it's written feels like oh, this is George now. This isn't the character. Yes I agree and that's why like if it was only Cersei I'd be down. I'd be I'd defend it to my So let me do this just to paint the picture as The salmon ghillie sex scene starts God damn it There's the cinnamon wind was spinning all around them and he could taste the rum on ghillie's tongue and the next thing her breasts were Bare and he was touching them.  I and that's like that's bad The first couple sentences it goes Way way longer than that like Like the milk really George Listen, did we need to know that her breast milk makes with the taste of rum and cinnamon like like listen, I own tough voyaging I'm a girl fan because He was having fun and yeah, Sam's not saying any of that shit. He's just like oh my god ghillie's naked Like Sam well by the way, it's just phenomenal in this book Sam.   I mean there's You just see her like demise coming from a mile away It's great and she's just like devolving into this psychopath over time, but it's also like It's very I do think like so we were just kind of complaining about George's writing Whereas with Cersei there is a lot of like subtle things he does we're like a lot of times And by the time where we've gotten to this point It does help that we've had outside perspectives to inform what we're gonna go into Cersei's perspective thinking anyway before she says Or does anything we've already like we've got some opinions about her, but um The fact that it is clearly from her perspective She thinks that she's smart and usually in a book if you're in the perspective of a character that thinks they're smart They are because the odd and it's you're like this author's like oh you want me to think they're smart You want me to think that like yeah, they're so clever But it's clear that while she thinks that she's such a clever schemer Like you're meant to see through it and like I meant to be sitting there and like it's not I don't know I feel like if that's a really difficult thing to do and it not come off as either You want me to think they're smart or as like it's so obvious that you what they're doing like she doesn't seem Like you do think she's crazy and you do think she's kind of dumb But it doesn't come off as like too overboard on that either you're not like oh my god She's like literally the stupidest ever like she's believably like there It's not she's completely dumb like some of her schemes like it does take some like of a diabolical Like some chess like mindset to like do that.  Yeah Oh, yeah, sir first impulse is very big for her Jamie says that she is a lot more like the wildfire of areas than the ice-cold scheming of Taiwan and that is One that's the biggest insult. I think you could give to Cersei because she wants to be Taiwan so bad But she was like, okay I know we're on Cersei, but I love so much like way later in the book It's like in the last quarter I think when Jamie's talking to his aunt and she's like I told Tywin that Tyrion is here. Yes. Yeah Love that scene doesn't she say like Tywin didn't talk to me for a while because of that and you're like dude Honestly one thing all right, we kind of trash George a little bit for his voyeurism But George writes sassy old women better than I think George might be a sassy old woman Like Olenna Tyrell we have a Jamie's well I think because if there's no danger of him get of any like kinky fuckery when he's like talking about Olenna or like aunt Lannister so like her name. It can just be witty. It can just be fine. There's none of Kinky fuckery. I love it terrific Someone in the chat. What is what is her name? Why can't I remember? I can't remember. Oh, I didn't But also we should be able to recognize I think that Cersei this whole book is projecting because she has always been scheming and hiding secrets based all around her Romance with Jamie and also just smart enough to hurt herself. Yeah, and she killed her friend When she was a kid, I mean, let's not forget that she killed her friend. So she's hiding all of these secrets That's why she's a paranoid.  You're like you suspect somebody of this because that's what you would do Yep, it's almost always projection. Yeah Yeah, but I also like I never thought of it this way before but I was just like while we were talking like I started thinking That like oddly enough like Cersei's like knee-jerk reaction to stuff is an oddly like masculine macho Where like she's very worried about always being Like about her how she's perceived and about how like she should be respected and she should be like It's it's almost like what you associate with how dudes are written How like dudes are like, how dare you disrespect me and like I must be the big man in the room Versus like Tywin and Tyrion and Jamie who are just like we do what's practical We do what makes sense for the family like it doesn't it doesn't matter like okay They can like say something disrespectful But we know we have the power and she has the like this what is like more Stereotypically the male urge to be like, I don't care like you don't disrespect me But that's like an immature male, right? So that's perfectly encompassing like what Joffrey was Joffrey was in Aries. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just that pompous little herb Viserys. I mean just that like entitled young arrogant Dick, I feel like Stereotypically in literature and just in public perception Women are associated with quiet cunning and men are associated with like with being like, uh, What's not broad not boisterous boisterous But also like braggadocious and very like macho and it's weird because like the other Lannister dudes are quiet cunning Cersei is the like And Kevin's telling her you know power and actually have power Cersei just so badly wants to think that she has power that she's like Lashing out like Joffrey did I read that comment and I thought she I thought I said she's a short terrorist I was like Kevin is so good and he also is telling her you need to keep your enemies close Like she he basically walks her through how to use the Tyrells and Omar had a really good comment here He said I think it was really cool how the Tyrells were used this book It's kind of like they were made to look as perfect handsome siblings contrasting Cersei and Jamie I would actually take that a step further and say that they are the next Cersei and Jamie in some ways Maybe without the madness and this is very reminiscent to how Tywin the Tyrells are the Lannisters now Because the Lannisters did this exact same thing to Aries Targaryen as he was going mad That's right and they see the madness and Cersei is now the mad queen I take advantage of it and the Tyrells are next up the Tyrells are next up because of Elena and her guidance so Elena and Marjorie because immediately they're just like all right So Marjorie you're gonna marry Tom and then you're gonna control them and make everybody love you But so like here I mean like the thing is Cersei actually has power and if she behaved like She has it instead of needing to prove it She would be just as able to maneuver as the men in her family Like she'd have you know not to say like sexism is real and like she would have some more barriers in her way Sure than the dudes did but like she has a ton of power. She doesn't have to keep demanding it She doesn't have to keep proving it She doesn't have to keep expecting people to tell her that she does have that power She wants like not just to have power She wants to have the approbation and permission and like accolades from the people that she respects and until she gets it She's not satisfied and now that tywin's dead. She can never get it and it's driving her crazy And yeah, if you need proof of this you can take a look at the small council chapter where she is being Way too heavy-handed with her small council. They are all showing they are I mean they are just Simping for her at this point knowing that she will go off at any moment. Yeah, uh in the small council I think is one Where you kind of really see like the lay of the land that she just surrounded herself with yes men in absolute buffoons To the point where pie cell is on the way out The man who opened the gates for tywin lannister to take over over the keep And she's pushing him out now. We got kibern and kibern and she's handing she handed over um, what's her name? We have jamie to thank for kibern. Uh, yeah, you're right Uh, but also I was just thinking like even though danie isn't in this book at all The way that this book intentionally contrasts sursey with danie because danie has kept fresh in our mind With sursey worrying about the young queen that will supplant her. So like she's not there But we're thinking about her and we've seen a lot of danie's perspective when we've seen a lot of danie How she handles trying to in a man's world trying to get respect and get authority So being in sursey's perspective and like just the fact that danie tells people to be honest with her And that she won't punish that like she's shown her Capacity to be a little bit of a tyrant, but like for the most part She's like I need good counsel and I need you to be honest with me Um versus sursey who's like surrounded as you said by simps by brown nosers by people by yes men And that's like as soon when she was worried about being like, oh, I'm so clever and like I won't ever be like bested by a younger prettier queen and you're like, oh, we've seen danie Even though she's like what 12 like she's a lot more mature So Yeah, it just it shows how like insecure sursey is and how Fragile she is honestly because it's like she has that taste of power And wants more of it and it's never going to be satisfied But also it's like it's that paranoia, right?  I mean she really has seen that I mean we didn't get as much time with them But joffrey was exactly the same way eras was the same way. I mean there's there's How many men with power in this book Die because Like how they're acting and a lot of them were crazy Yeah, you're right Um And and yeah, like she when she runs out of real threat she starts invent She's never like comfortable unless she's like fighting somebody And that's because of her projection that she knows that sitting on the throne is a child of incest That is not the rightful heir.  She's very frustrating to read but may be The best character like as far as consistency goes that george has written There's other ones. I enjoy more than I think are in tight competition with it But the way that he gets cersei across on that page is one of the most masterful things and we have to remember That this is a woman who has lost her child And it is very sad and at some points I find myself thinking about this and I say well, maybe I have cersei wrong But you also have to account for the fact That she murdered her friend because she had eyes for jamie. That is not normal behavior That is not I I have a lot of trouble extending true empathy To someone who has done this now I can empathize with the mother who has lost her child That is a very fair thing to I think anyone could have empathy for that, right? But Cersei as a person is broken.  Like it's just like you're crazy. She reached into his crib and twisted his wiener I mean that is I mean when I read that After all these times I still had a visceral response to hearing her abusing a baby in the crib It made me disgusted when oberin told that story Cersei is truly if you like you want to point to a solidified like evil person in the story Cersei might have you know her reasons or whatnot, but like at the core I think she's rotten and I think that's the difference between her and jamie And they thought that they were the only two people in the world And this is the story that we get in feasts that they are not the same person And even though jamie has this reputation for being the king's lair jamie is honestly like when you're in his perspectives He's just like he's very like going with it just like dad wants to do this Cersei wants to do this whatever i'll go with it. I don't care Like he's not and so like cersei was happy to like lead their relationship. He loves cersei Yeah, but the fact that like he he she wears the pants in that relationship and this whole time He's just been kind of like yeah, whatever she wants. It's fine for whatever But like it's only when he's had some time away from her And he's also because he lost his hand and he's gotten to actually like have a wake-up call to like see what she's kind of Actually like to where he's kind of has to think for himself for the first time instead of just like well I'll do what dad wants or I'll do what cersei wants.  I think I from experience I can think I can a little bit relate to you. I haven't pushed a kid out of the window yet, but Uh, you know, whenever you have something to hear it. Yes. Well, whatever. There's still time Uh, but think about back in old relationships that you may have been in Uh, when you say this is all that matters as long as this is good I'm good and then it's not good and then you are faced with the fact that you have taken no agency In your life that you haven't made any other decisions based on the fact that you just want to keep this thing good And that is what jamie did with cersei and now we see jamie coming into his own having to face that grief But also taking agency and it just so happens that when jamie jamie's so talented He's so talented. He doesn't try but when he tries and he goes to the riverlands jamie's pretty good But guess what all of jamie's mishaps in this book come from the fact that he is still obsessed with the fact That cersei slept with moon boy It really is it well slept with anyone besides him, but yeah, it's a through line in the entire book He's just always thinking about it. It always pops back up And it's in a complete parallel to brian of tarth thinking about the girl with the auburn hair And I know people get really frustrated by that line But if you look at their arcs They're exactly parallel and because of their obsession with these things that they can't seem to let go They actually miss extremely important information in the story in both of their arcs brian misses that the hound is right in front of her Yeah And jamie misses the fact that there is a spy and river run And that is why the repetition and girm kind of goes against what in a lot of places in literature They teach you not to do repetition girm actually leans into repetition But it's beautiful because it's only because of the perspective like we talked about the sex is from girm's standpoint, right? It's gross But this is where girm actually uses the perspective obsession And because of that we miss information even as the reader because we're so involved in jamie's head Well, you know repetition is also really good in the first law So, you know, it can be I love repetition I love repetition I use yes king does it all the time. He did it. I just read later and he did it to a tea Oh, I'm so good in wrestling. I always used to do that Well, that's why I mean like to like step away from specifically like a song wise and fire Like I hate when I never someone says that like there are things that you should never do and you're writing Because there's right any other than like, you know, incorrect grammar I can't think of anything that you should never do because as long as like The a skilled writer has done this in the right place at the right time They're employing it with purpose like there's nothing that you should never do Yeah, I agree. I think there's always a place where you can Insert that and use it to its strengths. I think that that's always an option um In wrestling I used to do this all the time and I'm not going to go on too long of a rant, but right I had a finishing move So I'd be in front of an audience that has never seen me So I would do that I would go for my finishing move Consistently throughout the entire thing like it was the only move I knew And I would keep missing it and then at the end when I finally hit it They all know what they're looking for. Yeah, and then the audience would erupt Stone Cold Steve Austin is all the time he would go for the stone cold stunner get pushed off the ropes dumped out of the Ah, but you know, it's coming. But when he hits it, you know, it's business And George does this all the time repetition is a tool Sorry, I'm a little tipsy If only Rhaegar had married me instead of that's yeah, uh, I was actually uh, that's one of the bullet points I have written down Cersei thinks about Rhaegar a lot Well, I mean she had a shit marriage to Robert. Yeah But also like it's interesting comparing like There is no one Jamie thinks about instead of Cersei like it's always just Cersei Or Cersei is very like I mean obviously like Jamie, but like she wanted to marry Rhaegar Like she was totally fine with that. She wasn't like no one but Jamie.  I mean it was brief, but she wanted to like Robert. She really did And in those moments, and Robert was handsome and charming at a time like yeah, he was even even during You know Jamie and Cersei's relationship like Lancel finds his way into bed with her I mean, it's did she bang cat. All right.  Mm-hmm. That's a really interesting tidbit Very very interesting He's something man. He is he's just man Littlefinger such a good question mark and and I Like what we get from him, but Cersei bangs kettle black. Like why would that be a good idea?   I'm really dumb like I don't I don't know My people don't realize I've had a lot of concussions.  There's no doubt about it. I'm big and dumb Um You know, I guess we kind of talked about this leona you kind of touched on but like the valencar prophecy is In maggie the frog Yeah, it's like a pivotal moment in her childhood now She did torture Tyrion prior to this but I do think some of her madness comes from the force prophecy And well, I mean, I think the reason that prophecy like stuck with her so much is because like she was already like before that prime To just hate him and she already was like harboring this like This poison and so then when this comes along to just feed into that and make it like to indicate it it's like fitting facts to It's taking facts and fitting it into your conspiracy, right?  You can always fit it Uh, do you feel like the valencar prophecy is going to result in jamie killing her because I actually do I mean I'm asher hopes though I think I story wise. I would love that to actually happen and not anything besides what the show did Fucking abandon it entirely I've been pretty on the side that most of the stuff in the show is canon minus a couple things I after reading this, I think it's Fairly obvious that george is going to subvert cersei's expectation that it's tyrion And she and she should see this happening. She should she knows jamie's a killer He shoved the kid out the window and then you put him in the oh my god Can you imagine if he kills cersei and says the things I do for love?  Oh my This is going into fanfic territory, but I kind of like it Or better yet if she's a threatening tyrion and he kills her and he says the things I do for love Oh my god He needs to kill her But I mean isn't isn't the prophecy that he's gonna like choke her Yeah, it's it's the as though she has cried all of her tears I think I even have a pull up here.  Although can jamie choker one-handed I mean why not I mean it would kind of be elegant if if he has the golden hand of lannister He's like struggling to choke her because he can't actually move his hand Um, I guess he could like crush her windpipe with the golden hand You don't have to yeah, you can kind of pin down. You can do it. Uh, you know, it's um, what's the word for it? I'm kind of trying to remember. There's a choke from behind like in an armlock.  That's what's called rear naked chokehold. I thought that sounds like let me jamie and sursy would get up to Um Pieces of information we get from sursy's perspective that will play into dancer dragons We see here that davos has been beheaded. Oh, no We'll see I know there's some first time rangers move. We'll see And also we hear that uran is on his way to old town from what waters tells her this uran is on his way to siege old town and that is going to be a major first event in the winds of winter if we get it so those are things to keep um your your uh eyes on but how stupid do you have to be to give this zealot A military The high sparrow she literally hands him the keys to the kingdom Which is why I love all of the perspectives that learn of this and are like What are you? Jamie defends it publicly Reasons for it because that is crazy. So you wouldn't do that if you didn't have a plan on paper without really thinking into it It's like, oh, okay. Yeah, she's gonna arm these zealots and she's gonna take power like cool makes sense Oh, wait. No, they're just gonna arrest you But it's also I feel like um, it's one of those moments that georgia r marten is like This is why children you should study your history Like, you know, because he's obviously a fan of history That's where like half the series comes from and like that's a specific moment where like, yeah Like the reason she does this is she's clearly not up on her history because everyone who's criticizing this is like But in history like it was so hard to get rid of them blah blah blah and you're like, that's why you got to learn your history Yeah Yeah, he is definitely showing us a Lesson in history right whenever you give a religious power too much a Military force that it can be a big problem. Um, and it's also interesting No one expects the spanish inquisition Very monty python s It does feel like it's a regression in westeros society though because look how many people acknowledge the old gods and the new And then you're giving all of the power to the new gods Which means that all the tullies and all of the north are now In a territory where they could be executed to be wage war on Half of it is like it's sort of like the the I feel like it's going from like the very uh idolatrous and money-laden catholic church and history and then the puritanical like, you know, uh, you know I mean that's the part of history that is drawing from anyway And the way that like lutherans and like everybody like came in and we're like, you know The catholic church is evil and you shouldn't have idolatry and you shouldn't have gold And all of you can't just like forgive and let live this other stuff It has to be our way or no way and like that's like the part of history He's drawing from and it feels very like paralleling that yeah And then you walk in and you give the catholic church guns You'd be like see now you guys win. Oh wait. No, you're turning them on me. No, that's what no stop it Yeah, it's very reminiscent to how uh france and I believe it was napoleon and the pope Did not get along But they did not get along at all And maybe we'll see a little bit of that play out. I have a historical fiction writer That's a friend her name's adrian dillard and she's written a lot about the tutor history And some of the parallels that she's been able to draw I was going to say like what it reminded me more of is the fact that king Henry the eighth was like The catholic church isn't giving me what I want So let's go pro protestant and like let's let's yeah, let's support that side and that's very surcy right now Where she's like, I don't care about any of this. Just like, oh, you agree with me like, okay Well, yeah, you guys that's a perfect example That's a perfect example, liana because george is actually on record to being a huge like he's a huge fan of the history of king Henry the eighth Interian in a lot of ways resembles king, uh, Henry the eighth and I maybe I'll look up and talk to my friend adrian. She she's very well-read in this stuff And maybe I can kind of pull some parallels We can talk about that during dance and we get more terrian chapters But that I think you're probably more right liana than I am about the napoleon because I think he pulls directly from king Henry the eighth tons and tons Well, just in general, I mean like the war of the roses and like that's like the part of history that this most resembles Not just like to do with the the church that we're talking about right now But just in general like the cuts to the types of conflicts going on in westeros Yeah, stewart said napoleon arrested the pope Napoleon the balls on this guy, right? He was like, I mean napoleon also crowned himself.  I'll be right back. Don't talk about anything cool behind without me talk about ariza o-kart He's boring. Oh, were we like I'd gonna talk about that and then we just like didn't It's boring move on Were we I think we started talking about it and then immediately just transitioned to sex because like of reasons Because sex sells Apparently that's what hbo thinks anyway Only for the first couple seasons and then you can stop Yeah, you gotta you gotta hook up what happens. That's no it literally was what hbo does Oh, I know It's like all all the tits in season one and then it's like every season it gets less and less and less And then it's just battles because now they've got you hooked with the actual story. I don't have to like dangle titties in front of you All of roommates used to call game of thrones titties and dragons Like oh titties and dragons is on tonight The show cut out so much of the like fantastical elements of the books though Except for like the dragons Well, I kept it in when in the early seasons But then like once we started nearing off book and they were like, oh, we're we're gonna have to continue those plots Let's just not touch those right We don't know what to do with that Not at all I think no traveling or anything what traveling I don't what Well, anyway, um Oh, someone's talking about there's no traveling jamie travels the entire book and says brian But I said brah, I think we're talking about the heroes All right, well, that's fair That's terrian an atheist Yeah, I think terrian would be an agnostic Yeah, I mean, I would say like when someone was they're saying is anyone in this world an atheist I don't think anyone is I think they'd be agnostic Davos there's so much like weird stuff going on. They'd be like, I don't know which one's true Something's going on though. So what do y'all has some authentic thing going on. I don't know which one of you Davos seems the most skeptical But he still respects the tradition of the old gods and is very bothered by them being And he also has like first unlike a lot of other people unlike most people in fact He's had first hand like primary witness to like what melisandre can do So like you can't see that and and not feel any kind of way about She did something that makes no kind of sense I think gurm's also very agnostic in the way that he writes because if you listen to him in interviews He um, I believe he actually classifies himself as an agnostic and he says that none of the religions in westeros are true Which means that he's leaving room for there to be something that's unexplainable in his work And I think that he also views the universe like that um Well, also, I mean like Unless you're going to have some kind of like godly intervention Like there's just no way because usually I mean most religions kind of center or like their point of disagreement is about What happens in the afterlife, but you can't prove And so that's why it's fake because you can't prove it And so like there's no way for a book to confirm which one had it right unless you're going to take us to the afterlife Or you're going to literally have like gods show up like wani python and be like So my plan all along was this and you were right and you were I mean like there's just like That changes the entire narrative at that point So like even if in georgia martin's mind He's thinking like well the ones that have it right are these guys There's just like no way in the narrative that that would be able to be proved Yeah, unless if you go in a totally different direction, which is not going to go Um, like I think i'm a lot melasin has like ascendance and gods and stuff and we actually see their perspective But that's a totally different thing right like that's not uh, not what george is doing Especially whenever it's so close to historical fantasy in a lot of ways He's not going to show that which I like I like And he's shown us enough of like and then we talked about this in the last live just about how like What seems to be the problem is that everybody has picked their part of like what is magical and been like this is the only thing And that's your problem is that like you've built a religion around only this magic is real everything else is fake and you're like No, it's all real So like the sooner you just accept that all of it is that like there There is like something going on with azora high But also there are the trees do see stuff So like they've got they're on to something and like everybody like it's all true So like why did you have to pick one just like Or are they all connected because in a lot of ways people think that the house of black and white And the many face god is actually the stranger in fact I think it's actually even maybe confirmed in canon that that it is the stranger Uh from the old gods because the old gods is seven, right? um well in the way that the The house of the undying talks or not the house of the undying um the What the the faceless men? Yeah faceless men.  We're nobody like we just we don't take sides Everybody dies Yeah, they accept the fact of the inevitability that mortality ends and what it means to embrace that like they're very like Hands off like when it's time to die you die Yeah, they're like, you know what everybody can agree on that we die That's uh, that's the only thing we're here for and that's no one can disagree with us about that You will die and they're not wrong Yeah Kappa says george seems to have split the truth into multi religions too in a way they all are grasping at the same Yeah, that that's kind of i'm saying like they all have something right some stuff wrong So maybe it's a central power and it probably they have wrong is that like by insisting that this part is true They insist that the other one isn't and they're that's where they're wrong is that like youth your thing is true But also that one is it's not not that because of your thing Yeah, even in this book There's someone and I maybe I'll find it when we're going through povs But like they actually mentioned the stranger in the many-faced god being this kind of the same vein It's almost like if you took like any pantheon any pagan pantheon and you had somebody there was like Zeus exists Therefore, none of the others exist and you're like no, he he does exist But also all of the others exist Well, that's one thing you have to kind of acknowledge if you're religious is that yes You might believe in and whatever like you might believe in Zeus But that means that you're then an atheist when it comes to the fact that there might be a uh, you know Allah Allah would exist right or Jesus like these things like you you don't believe in any of those But you believe in yours so that like the basically the thing everyone's wrong about is that they view their own as mutually exclusive Yes, and like no It's it's not or it's and I like that a lot. It's not or it's and it's a good way to look at it And I think that's what George is absolutely doing here Like I think it's almost Undoubtable that that's happening the couple things that we know for sure is that um, he plays with fire and ice a lot, but that blood Matters a lot blood magic seems to have a legitimate power within this world. Why we'll probably never know Are you saying we'll never know because you won't finish or because they'll never tell us I don't I don't think that's the question that George wants to answer I think that he is really interested about the human condition Where these things happen and how people react to them I was gonna say like part of it that is the most interesting is like in the face of this like how humans respond to it Do they accept it? Did they deny it? Do they fight over it? Like Which like especially again the part of history that he is interested in is also Heavily steeped in religious debate. It's heavily steeped in the fragmentation of christianity and where christianity becomes like it I mean That's the part of history where like it went from being like christianity is a religion to christianity is many religions that they don't agree so like the That naturally the his world and his story has like built in religious schisms and religious Fracturing is like well, of course there is Yeah, it's bound to happen even uh up to I think it's around Uh, you could probably go about 100 years after the crucifixion of christ that there was already Almost hundreds of variations of christianity based on that like at one point Uh, very shortly very early after the crucifixion there was actually a religion Called christianity that both did not believe in one singular god So, I mean that just shows you that that is very valid as far as like human history goes And I think that's what george the romans were very like Adopt stuff as they go Just like oh, yeah, we'll take that one. We'll keep that. Yeah, we'll just collect that air and I feel like it's like I'm just picture like walley from the movie walley where he's like going through all the garbage and be like Keep that or like get rid of that. Keep that get rid of that. Keep that like that's how they went It's like oh this god. Yeah, we like that one. We'll keep that one this god. No use for that one get rid of that And deri's right by the way, she said george has already said no gods will appear. Yeah, they will not appear I think that there will be God like powers that we have like for instance melisandre already does that in this series Uh, but we will zora high. Yeah, they'll never manifest themselves. It'll always play out through believers It'll always that's that's what george is interested in as humans um That's why bravos is probably because it has lots of gods. Yeah bravos is also kind of like In a lot of ways the outcasts from every other place, you know Also, um, because we started out, you know in theory talking about different characters and then immediately abandoned that plan but like, um I talked before about how like dany's chapters fall flat to me partly because and I or at least I think it's because We have no one's word but hers So it just makes it inherently less layered because you don't have like converging perspectives that perhaps perhaps can Afflict with one another and I think that like the fact that we have both aria and sam in bravos That we get two different perspectives on bravos really helps. That's actually a really good point That's a really good point. It's not a singular pov and I know that she's like if our experience of bravos was only arias Like you'd have such a bizarre Like very narrow perceptions like bravos would feel like this bizarre place, but like that it's a pretty normal place It's really just arias part of it. That's weird. It would also feel like Girm just included a different place It wouldn't feel but that and that's one of the things we'll talk about in dance is that george takes a lot of care to set Up the landscape of esos in a lot of different ways Uh in christian from lost services, but bobby b appeared in your damn right bobby b is like a deity in my in my book Why alex has gone do you want to talk about sir? Sir aries oakheart because I don't feel like he's like super duper important Actually, he is but like he's not like crazy important to say like because alex hates him and I was like does he No, I hope we'll just get that out of the way while alex has gotten like that. Let's hurry Let's not put him through that Um, I like the fact that aries gives us backs more backstory to the kingsguard because of the kingsguard at this point Has been told only through a pov of jamie Um, and we get so much backstory to the conflict and distrust within the actual kingsguard which is supposed to be the epitome of honor and justice and He kind of breaks it all down and really flushes that the bit out that the court Um, is not as studious as people think and is on her. Well, but we also like, okay This is why we quickly abandon the plan of time at one character because you brought up the kingsguard And jamie complicates the kingsguard when he talks to laurus and it's like, um Like and I love how like laurus is this like young indignant like gets like very uppity About like this conversation jamie's like, you know, it's like schooling him on. He's a young gun. You know, you can't blame him So, but back to aries ochre Who we're definitely talking about that Well, it's a consistent theme. You're right jamie mentions it aries ochre mentions it And it is a dissection of the kingsguard and what it means and to be honest in a lesser direct way We can see that the kettle blacks are not They're not kingsguard material at all. They're bot men They're almost hedge knights in a lot of ways So I think that the destruction of the idea of the kingsguard is very important in this book But it's also very interesting that ariana try is trying to change westeros to be able to be ruled by queen And we see that through ochre's pov and changing customs while also sleeping with a kingsguard member That would also then break his vows of being a kingsguard member Um, I thought that was pretty cool and it also gives him pause to think well marcella marcella can actually be a queen if I can I love this lady. I love ariana. So why can't I love her as a kingsguard member and why can't I also Crown marcella as a queen like maybe this is actually progression And I think that's how ariana takes advantage of a serio aries ochre In a lot of ways whenever the aries stuff i'm like i'm smarter than this, right? I'd never do this and never say tug at my collar the man got played He shared it but ariana does have sympathy for him after he dies She actually thinks it's very much like the it's kind of like, you know, like when actors or like people die young And it's like suddenly like it's because they died young that like they never aged to become like it like it makes their memory sweeter So you feel like like she I was very happy to play him and if he had survived she'd be like whatever So like because he dies that makes like the memory of him tragically beautiful and it it makes it pure in some way That like that's why she feels better. She never says that she loves him.  Well, we're doing this. I actually agree with you in this regard And I think people misconstrue the red wedding with this moment Because I have argued with people time and time again to say people say george will introduce a character for three Paragraphs of three chapters and he just kills them and it's like that is not the case 99 of the time This is the exception and I would say that sir aries at oak hearts Perspective he kind of gets fridged in some ways because it's like the reverse fridging of usually it's a wife, right? But ariana's perspective, you know a matriarchy or whatever over there. So of course it's reversed It's kind of a cool reversal, isn't it? And also the fact that I do think that this plays into the theme of the king's guard An honor injustice, which has already been questioned with jamie saying well, I killed the king I was sworn to protect but wasn't that the right thing? Oh, no, anyway Anyway Back to me seizing the power that I deserve Oh, man, where did alex go like an interesting counterpoint to sursey because they're both a little bit Like their situations mirror each other in the way that like they want to get their respect to their father They think that they don't have it. They think they have to fight to get it They think they have to like Outplay whoever to get what is rightfully theirs And like it's weird because like in sursey's situation like she's right tywin would never have given that to her tywin doesn't respect her But in arianne's case, she's wrong and she done fucked it up and doran was gonna marry her to the saris Like she was gonna be queen of westeros She she messed up bad And also that revelation in the in the princess in the tower chapter I thought that chapter was one of the best in the in the book When doran starts kind of pulling back to curtain a little bit on what he knows And I think that he doesn't give us everything he that he actually knows because one of the biggest questions from this book That we have to have answered Who ratted on ariana's plan because unlike sursey her plan was very good Her plan wasn't bad But someone in her group told doran. Who was it? Who do you think? I don't know jimmy. Who do you think? I think the safe bets the maester Um, but I have a this is my big tenfoil hat conspiracy Alex is dead guys. I I don't know how else to say this. Um, he was ari's oak heart of this feast for crow's live I'm gonna get that a beautiful leather chair. He has in the back. He actually left it to me as well I love that chair. I actually was gonna get a chair very similar than he got and I was like, I feel like I wish he filmed his videos there Why isn't he like charles dance like sitting there Yes, he needs to film it from above. He needs to have a cigar Or a pipe Dude a pipe would be I have a corn cob pipe back there. Should I should I get it? Don't leave me alone. No, I won't leave you. Don't worry. Somebody uh lost in scary says alt shift nut So I guess I should get my alt shift nut opinion I think and this is one of my favorite things about this book is I think dark star is actually doran's agent First off dark star is said to have slashed miss all. Um, miss uh, how you say it? Marcella's ear off, right? But ariana is the only pov we have and she doesn't see it. So we don't know if that's confirmed But if you think about this dark star cuts the ear runs off It's kind of weird that he escapes all these men, right? He goes and holds up in a hold and then he is going to send Sir balon swan to go get him sir. Balon swan is from westeros He's from king's landing in a lot of ways I think that this could be doran saying i'll send sir balon to kill dark star But dark star is going to kill balon and doran knows this is a good way to get balon off of the Board as a player like he's gone And doran gets no blame because if there's anything we know is doran is amazing at scheming He's been doing this for 20 years since that, you know, his sister's child was murdered and his sister was murdered Like you definitely feel but even though he's not a pov character Like you should write, you know, you should sympathize with your pov character Yeah in that scene when he's like telling arian how it is Even though he's really calm about it. I just like you feel such frustration of the like years of patient planning that's just Over and done and like you like I feel like if he was less of a patient person Like that's the part where you'd be like smacking her and be like Yeah, you want to shake her Great. I planned all that for so long and it doesn't matter anymore. Great. Okay, great And I think I think what what i'm saying is almost that he's taken an extra step because he knows his daughter is a bit of a hot head and I think that Uh When he says dark star is the most dangerous man in doran. It's not because of his sword skill It's because of the information that he has from doran I think doran has put all of his eggs in the dark star basket And that dark star has been promised to become sort of the morning because he's upset It seems like he's obsessed with that title. Like he wants to be important Um, so that's my tin foil hat conspiracy Um, yeah, I dare more than you dream That's the line where I was like doran's up to more than this like it's not just black and white But like this is also true like she wouldn't affect it up if he had just just you know, have a conversation You know, you don't have to tell her the whole plan, but jeez christ Yeah, it's it's a bit of a miscommunication trope, isn't it?  Like I know you're keeping it close to the vest, but like You know what she's like like Yeah, I would agree with that I would agree with that There's so many books that I've read where I'm like if you had just said a word I think it's almost like I feel like it's more typical that this type of thing happens in like romances Where you're like, you know, if you would just talk to each other and it's like that same thing like when like this happens You're just like if you had just talked to each other But oh wow omar you see what omar he put the peaches being overripe and bursting also symbolizes doran being too patient And missing this moment with taiwan and other thing. Wow. That's some good symbolism, man There's so much in these books there's also I mean like in fairness like that is like when you're playing the long game And you're trying to pick your moment Like I'm just like playing with the stock market, you know, where you're like, okay Like, okay, do I wait a little longer or do I go in now? Like do I wait a little longer? Do I go in now and like that's It's not even like a thing where like you can know it's not even a thing where like a smarter person make a Better choice. It's just like you got to pick one and you got to roll the dice And and he did roll the dice sending quentin over and we're we're going to talk about that a lot in dance because Man, there's some repercussions to come out of dance for doran that are not good Not good Yeah, textual clue. Yeah, if he and ober and just let the kids into the plot a little it would have been a little easier I think of uh fellas and I've been on a melasin kick But felicin and melasin is not given the proper information and it causes her a lot of grief and I always think about that When I think about things like this where like if you would just trust the female with some damn information It would all go so much easier So much easier Did alex like get abducted by aliens like is he coming back is my question I mean he has kiddos. I understand. I don't know I just want to I don't want to like dive into something that's really juicy without you know alex here to give his input Well, you know, you've read all of first law and he hasn't so Just shout him out that for the weight itself, right? a new arm We could talk about victorion because I don't think that he's like Super integral here like alex of fridge rip Uh, so victorion murdered his wife What a guy Though uran did sleep with her which also like I mean can we talk about maybe not? Any particular perspective, but I always think it's interesting Um, whose perspectives you chose to tell this story. Yeah So like with the iron islands you almost think like well the perspective to choose is you're on right? Like that's the one that'd be a pov character and he's not Yeah, so like I just I don't I think it's interesting Which perspectives he chooses and then also unlike which is where like the dissing of face recourse comes in but like Dover Cromby was like that's what I was talking to him about about like How he felt that you have to be very disciplined about like you've chosen your perspectives and you stick with them And that like if you just like start adding a bunch of perspectives Then like whose story is this and you're like, well, sorry my son fire. I'm looking at you But like at the same time like okay, so like he does add perspectives if and when need it but so like the It's not just a question of okay, who did you choose and why but who did you choose when and why? Because like it's not that you'll never choose perspective if you haven't yet Like if we haven't seen this perspective unless they're dead like they could always be a perspective someday So like why is someone not a perspective or why are they a perspective is very interesting a great question The ponder especially victorion and you're on with your history and the reason why in my opinion is because I think you're on the fraud I think he's lying We pretty metal though. Oh, he's met dude. I think he's one of the best atmospheric characters I've seen on page and like quickly aside on the show the actor they chose for him is a good actor And he could have totally played you're on well, but the way they wrote you're on Is bullshit this backwoods bam Margera. It was dog. Shit. It made me like I don't blame the actor for it at all He would have been fine Though apparently he was couldn't interview saying that he didn't care about the books and he never read them And never would so you don't have to be an actor doesn't have to care about the books to play the role well This is true. They wrote it poorly They included in like the second the last season, which was a mistake. This had to have happened in season three or four Uh, it just shows oftentimes with stuff like this. I almost feel like an actor. You're better off They don't really know because like they're gonna be too like up in their Feelings about like making this right as opposed to just like here is my slice of it I just need to be in tune with what this character is wanting and feeling and doing and that's what I'm here to do And like that's what the actor's job is it does not matter if they like have never even heard of jordar martin Yeah, and and honestly amilia clark is a good example of this because she went beyond what we know of denaris and then Acted out the rest and whether or not you like where she ended up is a different story But I think her performance as an actress she actually grew during the show Like I think from season one to season eight season eight. She's a pretty damn good actress season one Also, isn't it? I feel like I don't know if this is true And I don't know if I heard it from you or from someone else But I feel like I heard that um The scene in you know the episode where she's on her dragon and she's like having her She did she did not know the journey She didn't know what she was reacting to and you're like the journey she her face takes you on is impressive And uh, you can see why after the fact you'd be like, I'm sorry you wrote what for that Yeah, and that's actually true that that is from everything that came out and that uh, you cannot kill a burn a dragon or whatever It is that book that tell all uh that that is apparently what happened And I would say amilia clark whether you like where it came or not if her it was rushed or whatever She did a phenomenal job of relaying it through her facial expressions. And I think that Tyrion or in this uh regard, uh, mr Peter dinklage uh did not read the books either So I think that he is a great Tyrion and he did a great job until they stopped writing him so well um So yeah, I think the year on actor could have been he was he was well casted He was well casted the like interview with them.  So I guess he's not that smart after all And like you can see how like peter dinklage and like a bunch of the people in the song of isan Or the game of thrones cast were very much like bark hamill on the press junket for star wars who were like I trust the directory of on the way. I think this is terrible, but it'll be great guys. It'll be great That kind of embodies the difference though.  Wow, alijah. What's tossing right over there? Well, alijah needs to go listen to his buddy andy circus read them so good So good andy circus. Oh man I just like I'm always saying that like uh, steven pasty like every I don't want anyone but steven pasty But I was like, okay except andy circus like andy circus and steven pasty can just like split up all audiobooks in the world We'd be good um One thing I wanted to note about uran. He says that he threw a dragon egg into the sea during a dark mood that he had You know what? I think he did I think he sold it and I think that the faceless man at the citadel Was hired by uran great joy with the I think he sold the dragon egg to the nameless uh, I'm sorry faceless men That's or they or the faceless man found it in the water. They're bravo See well, it may it does make you wonder that if do the faceless men have a reason to be You're alive We thought george killed you. I don't think he can hear us Hey, alex Hi Are you like john snow you got resurrected for the end? Yeah, no, um My son woke up crying and has a fever and all that kind of good stuff. So oh poor guy. Yeah great skill I was considering making a joke about like the babies that are like in the In the books that I was like, no alex's real life child has a real life Yeah, germ has uh done some pretty horrible things to children So we were just glad we don't live in westeros at this point true So me and jimmy figured out how the whole series is gonna end.  That's We were talking about victarion and we were talking about how he killed his wife because you're on slap with her Um, but also we were just talking about like it's interesting like which perspectives he chooses to use one Like who he makes a p ov character Is that the real So quick asking a question that no one would know Enders game what's your man has no name?  Let's go Enders game is overrated trash um So the dusky woman by the way the uran gives victarion definitely a spy Like how can victarion be like?   I mean he does have a horn Do you think it's real do you think he went to valeria? I think he has something Like I don't think it's like just like absolutely nothing But I don't know that it's what he says it is I think that the horn that sam is taking the old town And the one that uran have or switched I think that sam has the one that calls dragons and I think the uran has the one that brings down the wall And I think uran's gonna eventually blow the horn and the wall's gonna come down. That's my theory I don't have any suss but he's just gonna accidentally do it.  I don't know. Let's not get the details here Well, let's say that they're not switched is sam gonna accidentally blow it and like collapse the wall Could you imagine that'd be such a sam thing? Yeah, that's a good point about victoria victorion and uran and I will say this about the iran islands We see a lot of brother dynamics in this series We see ed and his brother or and obviously he was burned in an anterian How would uran know what it does? The horn is magical but how would yeah, that's true. Uh, that would that would mean that someone he took it from would sell it on twitter He saw it on twitter Think uran is going down a lovecraft path. He is going. Oh, yeah That's why everybody loves book uran though Book uran he was he was so bastard eyes in the show because he was just which is again That we were talking about how the actor who played him would have been fine. It's all right Well, it's also the motivations of the character uran in the show literally said I just want to bang the queen Yeah, I went to bang the queen game. They bang the queen. It's so like honestly I feel like Honestly, like I have so much respect for like the actor who played uran and the way you played that character Because I feel like out of everyone he took one look at that script and was like I know exactly what kind of fuckery this is and i'm just going for it I'm gonna be the full on he did play the role Hamming it up like he was like he knew what kind of show this was now and that's what he was doing Yeah, he actually played it pretty well. I would say But the motivations for uran in the book are so much more. He wants to be a god He has blue lips from taking a shade night shade, which is what the warlocks Are taking yeah, yeah, he's just so much more fascinating and if he has been okay, we didn't uh, They weren't it's not in this book at all But like I was really disappointed that they didn't have dario niharis look I was like weird, you know, like the like the like The like beauty standards of where they were at with like the different colored like facial hair and the like Doesn't he have like uh on his teeth something? Yeah, he I think he might at some point even have blue lips. There's a there's a big theory that uran is actually Dario, I don't believe there are so many theories in this book in these books that everyone's just like what else can we think of? Just everybody is everybody else the other way like wait walk me through how timeline wise Dario could pop over to the iron islands after having been with daddy. Have you ever seen him in in the same room? That's literally what the theory comes down to I don't subscribe to the theory, but I understand the motivation behind it It's the fact that dario is a love interest of nanny and uran makes it very clear that he wants to Link up with Danny a bunch of people want to link up with Danny That it is kind of are they all dario?  He's literally blue beard Yeah, yellow facial. Yeah, I just I mean if you look at illustrations of them I mean, they wouldn't even give Danny purple eyes like they weren't gonna power cowards The witch I just feel like that's one of those things that like if it's handled well enough that like That's what makes a world interesting is the fact that like it doesn't just look like a medieval europe And I think they did a little bit with like the style of the hair and the dresses in king's landing Where like this looks like it's its own era and its own style where like, oh, this is from game of thrones Like this is a an aesthetic that they go for in that world And I just feel like it's like cowardly to not go on and show different like other cultural aesthetics Like I mean, it's a very almost like kind of egyptian aesthetic that they went for like the way he's described And that doesn't have to look silly like they could have made dario look You know the way that he's described in the book and not make it look ridiculous I agree just go full hunger games. Just all the way also I mean like if anyone could pull off the like blue facial hair and gold teeth It would have been it's grind so as soon as he was not in it anymore Whatever kind of a wrap it's kind of a wrap The the new replacement dario was just like the most generic bland I feel like uh, it's grind smile and his teeth are already kind of like I don't know how to describe it, but I feel like gold in there would not go amiss Yeah, look normal Let's just like go with this like weirdly like I don't know how to just explain this any other way But eds grinds face looks very like it's made out of sharp points. Yes And like his teeth just like I just like have some gold in there like have some pointy blue Like it would have looked normal for him to have a few gold teeth and some weird hair color I wouldn't have even noticed the gold teeth Like yeah, that's just what it looks like. What are you talking about? He was in Deadpool. Okay dark. He looks like some of you see a star That's true. Well, like they didn't even try to find somebody that looks kind of like eds grind It was like, oh, literally. I didn't know he'd been recast and I was like Who's this guy? And y'all he just he looks yeah, he looks very forgettable and he looks very like, um I don't know the thing about this is not even in this book But the thing about dario is that in addition to how like the the description of like the blue hair and the gold teeth Like he's very like this like wild card that like everyone is telling her not to be with because like He's just she's the bad boy. He's the bad boy. Yeah And like the the the new guy looked like that steady reliable best friend Who's been your boyfriend all through high school and all through college and you can trust him to like Helping a joint bank account with like he didn't look like this like risky wild card. That's like oof, but also uh-oh He didn't have that energy at all As just all haha, yeah Yeah, I fancast That's crying is just all but also I changed my mind since then and I think that's crying should play shivers I can see that I can definitely see that. What's this liana talking about first law again I didn't thought that way. No, I did what you were gone a little bit. I'm sure you said at least one thing So the povs that we have left are like aria jamie brian and sansa I think we should start with aria because she's the most distant and also probably the I wouldn't say the least interesting but she gets a very little in this book I think we'll say like with aria like all you get is questions And so it's hard to like talk about it because like all you're doing while you're reading her chapters is going like oysters clams and cockles The one thing that you have to admit though is her first chapter is one of the best Chapters I think as far as introducing a new place like the bravos and the titan and the way george explains that And then we actually get inside of the house in black and white and it's like so enchanting. I loved it I was kind of just eating the details up and I Well, you're talking about like the sometimes weirdness of the writing What does she do to the faceless man that first shows her his like gross face?  Yeah, it's something like that where he's like, oh, no one's gone that far before and I'm just like Like damn it george But like otherwise Yeah, I like I said before that like one of my favorite things in a song of ice and fire that I forgot was in feast for crows Is like the when aria goes to bravo I was like that that is like peak georgia martin being weird and I love it Yeah, omar said in the chat. He said arias chappers and feast And forward is honestly some of my favorite content the series you get so much of her identity conflict from the Back and force of the kindly man and lots of info about bravos and the faceless men But still so much unknown just super sharp dialogue in those chapters Also, just assassins many face man are so damn cool. Yeah, I think that especially the kindly man That's a very good flex of george giving very specific dialogue styles And also we were talking about how george r martin has like no discipline with like how he goes into the kinky fuckery but I feel like he does does display a lot of discipline in the fact that as like The like urge to go and be really edgelord about the faceless men and he doesn't like they it doesn't feel like this like Super edgy. No, I take it very serious Like like they're assassins and like it doesn't feel very like look how cool.  Like her mother just got murdered her family's dead I mean, I'm sorry when your family dies you eat the worm out of a skull Yeah, you don't every once in a while every now and then you're gonna have to do it But we still even with already being really weird We still get callbacks to her being a stark because she looks at needle And she whenever she's trying to put it away and she says needle was john snows smile That tugged on the heart string weird thing to say I thought it was beautiful. I just uh, I feel like in so many books, right? You know like a character is it told that they have to make sacrifice and they have to give up something and you're just like Yeah, yeah, just give it up or whatever But the way that like when you're watching aria consider giving up all of her stuff like you're sitting there going like Don't give up needle. You can't and like you feel it as much as she does where she's like Like you don't question the fact like in other books where you don't care that much about it You'd be like, uh, if she had just given it up like it would have been whatever Like you're with her on it. You care enough about this that you're like I can like oh, I'll be so don't give up needle like I'm with you like Am I seeing this right because now I already because I read this the you know first thing in january aria only has three chapters Yeah, it's very brief, but she's in both books. So she's in dance a lot Um, and it's probably because it's uh, george's wife's favorite pov Not just show aria. Yeah, she's favorite. Yeah It's mac like assassin. It's not super warriors like so many other all and also they have a code We kind of talked about earlier, but like they're very, um, black and white When it comes to that like they regard their duty as a very like this is like part of their duty And like it's not like we're such things. Do we kill people? Like it's not that You're talking about Never night slash empire of the vampire that you do that you two Listen, don't hate. Okay. Jay's trying to do something special, bro Jay, bro. I cannot believe that book is on my shelves.  Sorry, I won't swear as long as we don't talk about the thing anymore. No, we already talked about the the uh, You know the pointy subject the fatty pink one I'm saying is there's a lot of references to sam and his archery in this book in brooks prior And I think it's gonna matter and it's interesting to think that sam well think about there's three characters that are really important going forward The sphinx has a special bow in old town Sam the only thing he's competent at at the wall is archery and there's tons of archery references and uran Is showing up at old town the siege of which sam just arrived to I think That's sam you're on. I think that he's going to kill You're on and it's very interesting that urans Banner that he flies is with one eye because he has the eye patch And sam wells is of an archer Yeah, the tar or the sam will tarly or the tarly family banner is of an archer So yeah, I have this vision of that bow paying off that a lairis has or salaris Sand and that it will end up being sam well that shoots the bow that kills you're on That's my guess and it would be very apt because uran in my opinion is a fraud and a fake and for him to be killed by the biggest Quote-unquote coward in the series would I know we I know we technically already move on But before we move on from aria what omar was saying about the way that like Needle is where urmines are that she's a stark versus how ghost is what urmines john that he's a snow That they each have a token that like keeps them from relinquishing their identity that they Like hold on to And they're very tightly coupled in the series. Don't don't say coupled. Please about them Please don't That was george's original attempt. Yeah. We already know what's happening. No Because I'm also picturing fucking kit herrington with mazy williams and just that's the only reason you don't like it because a kid I mean, I would also just think it was weird, but like The the incest portion would be a little odd We already got incest with kit herrington and his a lot of incest in the in the story anyway So oh also dairy brought up a really good point Sam is also now thinner and fitter and getting really good at shooting things tizando Daru Daru sorry And also him standing up To dairy in and punching him in the mouth was so satisfying But then the doofus falls in the water and almost drowns It's so good Like it's like peak sam it's p. Yeah, that's a good way to put it It's peak finally do something cool and then just completely embarrass yourself Yeah, and we get all the cool stuff from him on the way there like he's talking about the valiant stores Swords i'm sorry, and how important they are and You get started thinking about you know, we get doran So like where's you know dawn at the sort of the morning usually carries dawn like where's that at? And then all the amon stuff in this book's really good like seeing amon in his last moments thinking about how bad he wants Also, like I don't know. I mean you're better at like Lore and like theories, but like I don't it really really stuck out to me The part where he was thinking that cold preserves and that they should have kept amon He lived longer than he even would have because he was at the north because cold preserves and that like Versus now taking him to a warmer climb Is what's killing him I just feel like that has that means something. I think that that's just very symbolic Think about ned stark.  It's weird It's weird to see amon go down. Uh, it's it's really sad even though Because of like how often like we just hear about like old people and like poorly people being sent to warmer climbs for their health And the idea that like he was in the uppermost north for his health and that being in like florida of westeros is what's killing him Yeah, that's actually a good point too. It's it's kind of the reverse, isn't it? And you would think for a Targaryen like for a stark to like need the cold You'd be like, yeah with stark's need the cold, but for a Targaryen Like you'd be like he should thrive where it's hot. Yeah. Well, alex is right. He hasn't been Targaryen for a long time He could have been king. He could have been king He's been at the wall for How long? Well, he's been there for 80 80 years because he's like a hundred and There's even 90 when he dies. He might have been there for like 70. He's been there for a long time 70 80 percent of his life He's been since summer hall the tragedy at summer hall. He was already at the wall. Um One thing that I think is interesting about him saying that the sphinx is the riddle not the riddler There is a theory and I actually think that this is the most far-out theory that I do subscribe to So there is a lot of times in the series where it is said the dragon has three heads Right, and we think dany john young graparian a lot of the time So what if what if Solaris which is a lairis the sphinx at old town What if she is reigning is Targaryen? And the reason why I think this makes sense is that the only time that that phrase the three heads of the the dragon has Three heads is mentioned in the series is by a Targaryen or about a Targaryen And out of nowhere in this prologue go look it up. The sphinx says Randomly the dragon has three heads and you're like, why did you say that?  Yeah, it's it's a little weird There's something going on with the sphinx. That's more than just her being from dorne Um, it has to be more than that. So what do you think of this? Maybe the cold helped keep his targside down and allowed him to become wise He was 103 when he died. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense because The more he distanced himself for the Targaryen side the longer He was going to live because if you look at any of the royalty from Targaryen's very few when we breathe through fire and blood We'll see it very few made it to an old age Just knowing about what lies beyond whites they know. Yeah, he does think about that It's just weird because we see a man obsessed with Daenerys Before he dies and then he just happens to mention the sphinx which we saw in the prologue I don't know. I think there's a lot going on with Selaire sand. Uh, and maybe maybe It's reynes Targaryen that we thought was killed by the mountain. Maybe so is Is she in old town or she in doran? She's she's in old town Because when doran talks about the sand snake, she says well, what about uh, sorellas and she and yeah He says, you know, she's off playing her games and a lot of people say, oh, that was shea. Shea was a doran That's not that's not fact. I don't I don't think that that theory is correct um It's two theories and a lairis is also sorella spell backwards And it's the riddle not the riddler. So the riddle is solaris being a lairis backwards But it's just weird that aamon brought that up And then in the prologue solaris or the sphinx or whatever you want to call her Yeah, which is posing as a male, which doesn't look like a male, right? is saying The dragon has three heads How weird There's something going on there. It's all i'm saying Isn't that dope it could event. Yeah, but The only reason I don't care that much is I feel like that could just be one of those things that never gets Resolved. Yeah, there there is definitely a chance. I mean, I think And also wait just this random like do we think that the souls are trapped in the bodies of the whites? Or are they just animated flesh? Are they alive if the souls are trapped in the whites that makes everything a lot more interesting But it also or It's just a very different question, you know, like is it like these They don't seem like they're themselves coming back to life because if you came back you wouldn't behave like that So like is it just bodies that are moving or are they inhabited by some other entity or are they themselves like? What is dead may never die Yeah, and that and the uh, amen quote sam We tremble on the cusp of half-remembered prophecies of wonders and terrors that no man now living could hope to comprehend or Amen was spitting before he ate the dust god damn Uh, a lairs couldn't possibly anyone else than serella. Well, I I mean I would agree Like I said, I think this is the most far out theory that I'm willing to subscribe to like I don't subscribe to the Jamie and you know Cersei being target. I don't subscribe to any of that stuff But this one is interesting or Tyrion being a Targaryen Yeah, I mean it's fun to think about but it doesn't really make sense in the context of what the story is trying to get across But I if you look up on search of uh ice and fire You will see the only people who ever mentioned our Targaryens in too many secret Targaryen too many see They can't all be Targaryen But we say that but it's because we also are considering all the ones that are like cold yearly ridiculous I do think that Alaris or serella whatever you want to call Um her she's up to something. She's playing a game in door nose. So A lot of cool stuff Didn't one of the whites remember things when he snuck into the wall in game of thrones that is correct He remembered where the lord commander was housed. That's right. That's a good point. Also There's a difference between I don't I mean, I know that muscle memory is actually in the brain But like, you know, there's a difference between muscle memory and like being yourself Yeah, that's true. And also like remembering like, you know, a geolocation's not the same as Saying I love this person or I hate this person We're getting into Battlestar Galactica Cyclone territory Oh Danny Bring the whites spring this I do think that the whites are going to have a much more symbolic purpose in the books than it did just in the Um In the show I think that we can look forward to that if we if we get the uh subsequent books So also, is it uh, I just thought of his time at Melisandre, but like isn't it in this book that it's uh Really pointed out to us that the this like flaming sword is has no warmth. That's why it's not the real thing Yeah, you're right You're right. Um, the there's a certain property about it that that isn't true.  That's right The real sword would have to actually Be like the warmth of fire and then further than that we see Danny see somebody that is Basically casting no shadow meaning that they're a fake and that's obviously stannis being azora high I think Um, dary brings up the george to also deliberate confirm that aries could have conceived terry and that is correct uh, also One of the reasons why I like the surrella sand equals reynes targaryen theory is that george when asked if reynes was dead He said without a doubt everyone in westeros believes that she's dead He said that and it's like okay That's such a weird way of saying it that like you almost feel like and he's probably messing with us because george is a sicko But it could also just be that like he's toyed with all these ideas himself And he's put enough things in place to where he could choose which one of these things he wants to write And he'll see when he gets there because he doesn't even he hasn't decided That's the beauty of the gardener approach And we kind of talked touched a little bit right on john and aria being supposedly going to be romantically involved in the original trilogy outline All that stuff that was foreshadowed now We see it because we know the outline if we hadn't done the outline We would have just written it up to brotherly and sisterly love right So which is why like a part of me like so like I don't know like I'm always of two minds because like part of Me like loves, you know the idea of like taking this world seriously What does it all mean but also I know that like the author themselves are like Sometimes they plan something sometimes they've like put something in and other times they'll hear what you have to say and they're like Oh, did I do all that? Uh, yeah, I meant to do that So like part of me is always just like how much am I just like giving this way too much credit? Yeah, I think you're right I think we always have to take a step back and realize that the author probably doesn't know I think steven king was really up front about that because he has a similar approach to the george and his writing style Uh with dark tower he never knew at the ending and then he took it in a very weird direction And george is leaving himself option, which is the best way to go when he write like him Kappa mike says what does dragon having three heads mean though? There are three targets in the world I actually believe I truly believe that the reason why regar picked up the sword. He said I now require sword training It wasn't to win the iron throne like the ultimatum in the show like that was the ultimate outcome in the show It's about the white walkers It's about the white walkers and the children of the force and it's going to be way more fantastical So the fact that the dragon has three heads is probably some sort of Convergence to where three of the Targaryens come to defend humanity against the existential threat that is the white walkers That's my opinion Prophecy will bite prick off Well put george But which I also think like is kind of like talking to the reader and being like if you try to guess too much Yeah, you can go down to rabbit holes Like we're sitting here like all these silly characters trying to read into prophecies Meanwhile theories about what this could all mean and you're like you're the same you're worse than sursey We might be worse than sursey confirmed Um, I I think now I think it's good to go to jamie to brian to sansa because brian's journey Lannister Jamie is definitely the way to go next. I think I wish alex was here, but obviously, you know life does call Well, wait, no like we can talk about something more boring Before we hit jay me because jay me jay me. Okay. Let's talk about sansa. How about that?  Who cares? This is a small detail that I really like Mord the jailer if we remember from the clash of kings chapters or is it game of thrones when tirion's taken captive? It's game of thrones You know more the jailer has brown teeth in that book and land and tirion offers him gold and he gets out Well, guess what mord the jailer in this book has golden teeth So I guess elanister does in fact pay his debts. I thought that was really cool I actually thought that the little thing you were going to talk about is just that like she is no It's not sansa's perspective. It's elan's perspective Which like, you know, I just I like that george r r marten trusts the reader to like just get it, you know that like you don't have to like I feel like there's I get so annoyed all the time and like if you see all of my like ranty vlogs and all my like, I don't get it videos I hate it so much and now my new thing Don't tell elix, but my new thing is to break up a song of ice and fire not first law to be like You know to deliver world building information to deliver character development to a reader where you don't feel like the Author's talking to you where you just trust that we're going to get it and that like if you've written a clever character Then we're going to think they're clever and you don't have to sit there like so this is clever Because you see what this actually means is that these are and you're just like oh Like that didn't make me think it was clever. I either thought it was or it wasn't and you telling me is never going to help It's like someone explaining a joke Exactly, it's exactly like that and so then I feel like A less confident and a worse author would have done the elan thing But would have aggressively been like that sounds Whereas like he just like lets it ride and like it's clear to us Why and it's even told to us in the previous book that like at all like peter tells her like even in private moments You have to be elan because we don't know who's listening and so in the next book Evened in private moments between the reader and the character She is elan and george trusts us to just like ride with that instead of being like and of course She thought of herself as elan because peter had told her that even in private moment You're like the worst author would do that and you'd just be like I get it You're right. I think george is a really good job of Trusting his reader while also sprinkling in information repetitively. Um, it's one of the things brandon sanderson does too much I think is where he's very very very repetitive information He's like a good teacher, you know like a teacher I mean in a classroom, you know where you were like you lead the student to the answer And you don't just be like figure it out because like i'm not going to teach you and you're not like bashing them over the head With the answer you lead the student to the answer so that they feel they came to it and they had help But like they got there on their own and you didn't smash them over the head with it like Yeah, that's the way to go and trusting your reader and also giving like a leash to be wrong about these things is very important Um, I think it makes you engage with the text in in a way that a lot of authors do not It's some authors take it even further like gene wolf But george does a really good balance of being accessible to the masses while also having in this undercurrent that happens in his His text that we can latch on to and reread three four or five times whereas I think also the difference is there um that like While one might you literally do not understand what's happening unless you engage with the text versus like You can read this at an utterly surface level and just read it But like if you bother to engage with the text there's more to be found and that's when it's successful because like That makes you want to work for it because you're like, I mean I could just read this but like What if I just like dig a little deeper versus a book that's like I literally can't understand this and I unless I dig deeper I'm just like fuck you Yeah, or it's a lukewarm experience if you only take the surface level events Yeah, whereas like george is like there's plenty of stuff here for you if you want to look for it But in the meantime, here's like a pretty good yarn Yeah, I think that that is why girm has found its commercial success while also inspiring a lot of people who Do enjoy like the nerding I think it's also why you know movies like the matrix have commercial success because it's like a fun action movie But if you want to like engage with the like deeper themes and the philosophical Parallel you know illusions and whatever like there's a lot that you can engage But like also you could just watch it as a fun action movie and so then everyone can have fun with it Yeah, I think I think that the best pieces of work can play that way with both crowds Yeah, and it also is what makes it a rewarding reread because you can't just like breeze through the series It's just like I'm just like I having a fun adventure story and then you reread it You're like oh, I didn't notice all these things and in the third time through you're like actually I think this is all connected. I think this is foreshadowing I think this means something and then you know like the millionth time through as jimmy can tell you Is when you become a full member of the cult You're right and and someone pointed out in the thing I think it's johnny come lately says a lame stone in quotes Allow, uh, you know no correlation there to lady stone heart, right? Because stone is the bastard name in the fingers also I know what we decided to talk about a lane while alex was gone, but brian meeting lady stone heart Oh, I mean that's one of the best pieces of the story One bridge from brian to sanza is we meet the mouse Through brian's pov and I don't know if people caught this but sanza meets the mouse at the end of the book And knows what she looks like And and if you look at the winds of winter Preview chapters, you'll notice that the mouse does know that elaine is sanza Thanks to brian's information. So that's going to play out later down the road But it's very cool to see the mouse show up In brian's chapters pretty good character and you're like, oh, see george.  I think he's fascinating, but god. He's creepy So creepy. I mean, we talked about it last chat. He's a super creep. But yeah, I mean, he's sorry I was looking at chat. What who are we talking about peter bailish? She's so good like Super creep super creep. He's so crazy.  It doesn't feel like george being george being creepy Yeah, george doesn't actually george's in my opinion to the younger girls here Way more gracious than the show Because sanza gets character assassinated by ramsey in the show. Well, I mean Yeah, that was it sanza gets character assassinated by a conversation with the hound at winterfell Yeah, but yeah, you're right.  And then in the books we get the complete opposite We get sanza considering the hounds goodbye and misremembering that history What do you make of that? I don't I don't know what to make of that Nothing If I had to draw anything honestly when I read that I thought I had misremembered. I was like, I didn't think he did but I guess I forgot That's the crazy though um Do you think subconsciously she has affection for the hound? Or georgia or martin forgot That is possible to write the thing I I don't think there's anything to it. I'll wear another Uh, there's a lot of people who feel like the hound and sanza will end up together I think it's interesting. I mean it'd be kind of weird, but also I would it's not interesting The fact that they would interact again sure the fact that they end up together Not good not cash money as as many people would say But we could jump the brian then who I think runs into the hound uh in her arc And I kind of already talked about her meeting the mad mouse shatter This is one of the things where the show did like this was a moment where like They wrote something new that was good, which was brian and the hound fighting over aria Like that scene is a very good scene It's one of the few times that they changed or added something where you were like That's actually I just watched and my wife just finished season four That fight It's so good. It's so violent and just like raw and emotional I mean the first four seasons of that show are perfect. Let's be honest folks There's just like you don't know how to feel about that. You don't know like either way Well, you feel for the hound And you end for brian and for aria and you're just like there's no winners here. This is this is horrible This is horrible. I don't want anything to happen here and podrick My boy is just sitting there I love podrick There's there's a really cool article I read on reddit way back in the day and it compared brian's arc and fees for crow's tube wizard of oz And I thought that it was so fascinating because they said septin maribald is a scarecrow Yeah, he's a scarecrow hyal hunt is undoubtedly the tin man because his body's covered in full armor And podrick pain is without a doubt the cowardly lyon And you think about and you go that kind of adds up and then sursee is the wicked witch So is she gonna melt And pour water on her she might melt from wildfire. Who knows The interesting I thought it was an interesting parallel that I I remember reading a long time ago And I said, you know, it kind of does I don't know if it's on purpose from girm But like you can draw that parallel as a reader and be like, oh, yeah I mean, I was able to make an argument that the secret history is secretly peter pan And I at no point thought the don tart actually meant to retell peter pan So like you can draw parallels like all the time because like, you know Tail is old as time like stories do repeat themselves osmosis definitely plays into a writer's process, I think One of the cool things about mad mouse that I liked and this is just a little uh, like writer thing But we meet mad mouse through brand's pov and I already mentioned that she he shows up In the elaine chapters, but the next chapter after we meet mad mouse is sam At the wall and a mouse comes out and crawls across his papers And it's just like a cool link between the chapters that I liked That doesn't really have any bigger implications, but i'm more george wrote a different semen sand or la sansa and then It went no Maybe possible Definitely possible Someone about seed But then forgot Oh and dairy says also hyal hunt doesn't have a heart It's true. He's very very cold Maybe there is more to that wizard of us connection then so the song of ice and fire is just a ripoff of wizard of us At least one part of it. Yeah, it's literally the same. Well people who haven't read memory sorrow and thorn will tell you It's a clone of memory sorrow and thorn, which they're dumb and brain dead, but it makes me so mad People who are detractors of girm That is like one of the number one things that they'll say it's just a clone of memory sorrow Well, this is how I felt when people said that empire of silence is a ripoff of name of the wind And i'm just like how I don't think anybody that has actually read both of them believes that Except that one person that like went through and like found weirdly nitpicky quotes that like have similar like sentence structures And you're like it happens.  Yeah, that's also that's that's picking out Weirdly specific quotes to make your point while ignoring 99 of the book Yes, and it's also people taking maybe one aspect of something and drilling into it and thinking that people are Naturally nefarious and I don't think it's just ignoring the fact that like there is a shape to story telling That like humans are drawn to in order to tell a good story.  It's just because the human ear finds it compelling Stay with the dope song Same smith got sued for copying uh, well backed down by tom petty No, I guess all that Yep, but stay with me. It's a dope song Although let's agree though that like under pressure is the only song that we need to know about under pressure No ice involved Um So a lot of people give brian chapters a lot of grief and I want to just say for the record them The reason why I like them so much is because one They mirrored dunk and egg in a lot of ways with podrick and brian going through and uh, her shield is actually painted The same as the one that she saw when she was at home on the sapphire aisles And that's the one that sir dunk had left. Uh, there's a connection there. Grimm has confirmed that dunk is One of the elders in the family line of brian, but we get to see the everyday Yeah, we get to see the everyday folks of westeros. I just like that. I don't know. I'm a big fan I can definitely get why people don't though Yeah, like There is the crowd of people that wants the world to feel more alive and get to see like the peasants and like the Like common folk and then those people that are just like this has no impact on the story whatsoever Yeah, where I like seeing the common folk a lot of the times and also it doesn't not have any impact on this Or it like it doesn't it's not less impactful than almost anybody else Like everybody is like going along on their own little journey and like arguably All of them are in some way not impactful to like a larger story if you want to like it's very few That feel I mean what's going on on the wall. What does that have to do with anything? Well, you're you're right a lot of people and again I think it's because we don't have the payoff yet But a lot of people forget about how much stuff was given through the lens of catlin in a clash of kings And brian kind of does that here we get the backstory of dust and then brian Catlin.   It's made from ice, which is it definitely plays into the ending of this book It's very poetic We get dusk and dale story where we hear about actually a lot of ways she kind of glorifies and it's interesting Because she wants to be a knight She actually glorifies uh baristan selmy because she tells about dusk and dale where baristan selmy saved the king She tells about the nine penny kings where at the end of it None other than baristan selmy ends up slaying the golden company leader and winning the war Which is the fifth and final black fire rebe