Cymru. Ieithio i ddweud. Mae'r Cymru yn ddweud hiadau yn yr edrych i ddweud y 30-th gydag y Llywodraeth a Llywodraeth yn yourbwyllwyr. Rwy'n mynd i'n gwybod i ddweud i ddim yn gweithio gael eu cychwyn iddysgol i'r ddweud o'r ffawr.  Rwy'n cael ei gyd, ma addysg. Diolch yn ddiddordeb nhw yw rai'r sgwyl diwethaf eu psychfyniad o'r mewn cytune anhygoel ar gyfer sirai o gwneud o gwneud o gwneud eich gwneud.ólwch ydydd cyfryd ei hunain oherwydd o'r cyfanolol i gyd acau'r Time so people could be concise. That would be very helpful. Before we move to the first pattern that I would like to put on record, the thanks to everyone who has given evidence to the committee so far, including most recent correspondence from the National Youth Orchestra of Scotland, which was circulated this week to Members. Our first panel today consists of representatives from COSLA and me. I welcome to the committee this morning, councilist Stephen Mackay, children and young people spokesperson, Eddie Follin, policy manager, children and young people team, and Lauren Bruce, chief officer, local government finance at COSLA. We're delighted that you've come to be with us this morning and understand what Councillor McKabe would like to make an opening statement. Thank you, convener. It's nice to be back again. I see some familiar faces and some new faces since I was last here. As the committee will be aware, the issue of instrumental music tuition has been discussed at the COSLA Children and Young People Board, and we have written to the committee on the decisions taken on a cross-party basis by the board. We can no doubt discuss those decisions in more detail this morning, but before we go to questions, I thought it would be helpful to give some context to both the role of COSLA as a membership organisation and also the financial constraints in which local authorities are currently working hard to deliver essential services. COSLA represents the 32 local authorities, and as a membership organisation, we represent their views. We cannot tell them what to do or take action to either change or rectify what they do. What we do is to seek to achieve consensus of approach while recognising that local authorities will make decisions based on a wide range of factors. An absolutely vital element of our approach is that we respect and protect the ability of councils and their elected members to make decisions based on local priorities. In seeking political consensus, we work through our very spores, and we have achieved this on many complex issues from education reform to the expansion of early learning and childcare. On instrumental music tuition, there is a very strong consensus that this is a valued service, has an important role in education, and that, to maintain the service in very difficult financial circumstances, retaining the option of charging is crucial. Since 2011-12, core funding to local authorities has been reduced by £1.64 billion in real terms. No local authority makes the decision to introduce or indeed increase charges for any service lightly. However, the financial situation for local authorities continues to be very difficult, and as a consequence, councils have faced difficult decisions about funding. Our board were absolutely clear that these decisions are the embodiment of local democratic process and as such, decision making and accountability for those decisions rests locally. In the context of respecting local decision making and an extremely challenging financial situation, we are making every effort to ensure that there is access to music tuition for those in the lowest incomes, low-sit and SQA exams. Through that guidance, we will improve the communication between authorities and children, young people and parents on the reasons and the rationale for charging and the transparency around decision making. Officers will take forward this work in guidance over the coming weeks and we will report back to the board in February. I am happy to take questions from members and I will bring officers in where appropriate. Thank you very much, Councillor McCabe. I am going to go to Iain Gray. Thanks very much, Stephen. You spoke there about a consensus of approach, because I will find a consensus of approach on this issue, but the evidence that the committee has heard is that the result of that consensus combined with local democratic decision making is a huge variation in the availability and cost of instrumental music tuition. Is COSLA content that in one part of Scotland instrumental music tuition should be free and in other it costs a family many hundreds of pounds? COSLA respects decisions that are made by democratically local councils who are accountable to their local electorate for those decisions. It is not COSLA's role to impose a national policy on our councils. You had the opportunity at the previous session of the committee to speak directly to free councils, all who take a different approach. COSLA respects their different approaches. In fact, each of those three council representatives reported back to the last meeting of our Children and Young People Board and set out their councils' particular position. Across the country, from Shetland to Delfresing Alleyway, there was absolute consensus that the principle of local democratic decision making and accountability is something that we fundamentally guard and want to protect. You also said, Stephen, that COSLA believes there should be protection for the capacity of children from less-well-off families to access instrumental music tuition. Again, the evidence that the committee has heard that, although there are, in most authority schemes, for example, for children who are entitled to free school meals to access music tuition, there are significant numbers of families or sections of the population who do find that it is not possible for their children to continue. You have got the example from last week of West Lothian, where the introduction of charges is seen in primary schools. Four-fifths of children drop out of instrumental music tuition. There is the evidence of John Wallace from the Music Education Partnership group quite clear the people who have more, the people in more deprived areas have less. Are you content that the situation is actually delivering for those children from poorer families? COSLA is here to represent the views of our members. Our members have discussed this issue, and at the last meeting of the board, the consensus was around the fact that there should be no charging for SQA exams, and I think that that is the case across the board, and that every authority should seek to provide free tuition to those children entitled to free school meals. I think that that was agreed unanimously across the board. That would be the minimum criteria that we would build in any guidance, but it would be for councils to decide if they were going to introduce other policy means that meant that families who weren't entitled to free school meals but were perhaps in low pay would potentially get a reduction in charges. Our view is that that should be a decision for local democratic elected councils. You cannot look at decisions that councils have made on music charges in isolation. I'm sure that when the councils are West Lothian or indeed Perth and Kinross, who have charged for a long number of years before West Lothian, sat down and reviewed the savings proposals that they were presented with, I'm sure that they agonised for hours over making those decisions probably. I'm sure that they consulted as part of their budget process, their local electorate, and I'm sure and confident that, in their view and their value judgments, introducing a charge for music tuition was a less damaging saving or cut, if you want to give it its proper term, than something else. It may well be the case that other councils have decided otherwise because they've made a different judgment. I, as a council leader, sit every year with a whole list of savings proposals presented to me by officers and other elected members and we have to go through that agonising list of tortures weeks and weeks and hours and hours of discussion and reviewing before we make decisions. I'm sitting with a list of £9 million savings in front of me for next year, potentially, and some of those involve education. The reality is that if you don't take hard decisions in one area, you take hard decisions in another area. The fundamental issue is not about ringfencing funding or protecting services, but the chronic underfunding a local government over the last 10 years, which this Parliament has presided over. Is it fair to say then that the differing structures and provision of instrumental music tuition and the charging regimes are driven almost entirely by financial constraints on local authorities, that they are financial decisions, that these local authorities have had to take and have taken different ones? Is that fair? I think that's very fair. I've been an elected politician for a long number of years. I am no way musically inclined in any way. Music passed me by, but I like nothing better than, as I'm going to tomorrow night, going to our schools concert in Greenup Town Hall and listening to the concert bands and the orchestras and the vocalists and looking on with pride with the passion that those young people enjoy their music and the joy that they give to people who are listening. Our concert bands and orchestras have went across the country representing our council and achieved huge rewards and brought huge credit to our authority. I believe that every elected member has a passion, but we also have a passion for many other areas, including tackling poverty and deprivation and a whole range of other challenges that we face as a council. In my opinion, that is entirely driven by the hard choices that councils have to face. I would like music tuition to be free to every young person in Scotland in the same way that many other things are free to every young person in Scotland, but fundamentally, at the end of the day, councils are faced with hard decisions every year around education, around every other service that we have. We cannot sustain what was previously free. We cannot sustain it indefinitely. My council has a fairly limited approach to charging, but we have made other hard decisions. I would not criticise a council who has cut back or introduced charging in music tuition because I may well have taken other decisions in other areas to protect music tuition. That is the simple fact of the hard choices that we face. You have touched on that, but I just wanted to explore this a little bit more last week when we had representatives from three different councils who have taken three very different decisions around charging for instrumental music tuition. It was suggested to them that one way out of this would be for central government to provide the funding to allow this tuition to be provided free. All three of them were quite reluctant to do that. I think that the committee might feel that if local authorities are genuinely passionate about the opportunity provided by music tuition, you have just described that yourself, Stephen. Why would they resist central funding in order to make this something that was available free across the board? Local authorities will always take pragmatic decisions on the best interests of their communities. If the offer of money was on the table, we would have that and say what was in the best interests of their communities. We have a recent example of the level of school clothing grant. Huge lobbying around that, huge pressure on the Government, and the Government decided we will come up with extra money for school clothing grants. The level was not determined in legislation, so there was a huge variation across councils, but the Government said we will come up with the money so that everybody can bring the level up to a minimum of £100. Some councils were already above £100, some were significantly less than £100. Again, potentially you could see that as overriding the principle of local democratic decision making, but we took a pragmatic approach. We said fine, if the Government comes up, we will work with them on a voluntary basis and we will come to agreement and we did that. But these sticking plasters, and I think that's how we would see them, are applied. You have somebody who raises a good cause, who lobbies, who introduces a petition and says it isn't terrible that this thing is happening in local councils, this council is cutting this and that, and wouldn't it be better if we just funded it centrally and the Government comes up with money in there and comes up with money here and money there? Applying sticking plasters, the fundamental problem is the chronic underfunding of local government. I've given you the figure and Lauren is our finance expert and if anybody wants to challenge Lauren's figure on that, we're more than happy to have that discussion. But the fundamental reality, it's absolutely the chronic underfunding local government. Yeah, we're prepared to have a dialogue and a discussion around the area of finance, but let's be clear, it costs, I think we've estimated £28 million a year to provide music tuition, fees and charges which aren't applied by every council, raised somewhere in the £4 million, and next year it'll cost more than £28 million, it'll cost more than £28 million a year after a year after that, because basically inflation, wages going up, et cetera, it'll continually rise, so we think simply saying find £4 million to wipe out the charges is a very simplistic solution to it. I don't believe any council in Scotland in an ideal world if they had the right resources we'd want to charge for music tuition. I will try and bring you back in, but we are really tight for time, so I'm going to bring in Dr Allan. Well, thanks very much. I just want to ask a question that I've asked the other witnesses really, which is whether you feel that local authorities across Scotland are now living up to undertakings that were given six or seven years ago in the back of the Government's working group on instrumental music tuition and some of the... some of the agreements, essentially, that were reached about what would and wouldn't be done in the future? I'm not conscious that local councils have reached any agreements that were reached before Balmering, Eddie, in that particular point. I mean, that's the... the review and the recommendations from that. And I think in a response, in a letter, the last time we visited that was 2015. And in 2015, certainly the progress had been made, and I think we would want to kind of go back to that as we're doing the guidance, because in the guidance we would look back to whatever those recommendations were and make sure that we're trying to address those. So I think progress has been made in a number of areas in the guidance, in the review. But I think we can still do more. There's 17 recommendations, and I think that there's more can be done. We will certainly revisit that as we're developing this guidance, which we're doing at the moment. Thanks for that, mate. It certainly was interesting speaking to students from the Royal Conservatoire whose strong view seemed to be, and I'm not putting words in their mouth here, but their strong view was that some of these undertakings weren't being lived up to, and particularly around, let's say, definitions of how you live up to the undertaking that was given not to introduce fees for tuition that leads up to SQA courses. So I just wonder if, on that one specifically, you feel that local authorities are actually introducing fees now for courses or for tuition rather, which is essential to get to an SQA exam. Well, I think our view is... My understanding, or our understanding, is that there are no chances to parents or families for SQA. Okay, and finally, again, on the back of what the Conservatoire students were saying, I just wonder what kind of workforce plana is being done by local authorities. One of the points they were making to us very strongly is that they can't see where the next generation of music teachers is going to come from unless there are a supply of people who are sufficiently adept in musical instruments to get to a point where they can go through the necessary training to become music teachers. Again, I come back to my point, which is that they raised doubts whether the tuition now available in many parts of Scotland is sufficient to get to, for instance, an advanced higher in music. I suppose that, in the wider context, we're looking at shortages of teachers and pressures on local authorities there. I think that, again, there will be variability in terms of supply of teachers in particular areas. I think that it's a challenge that we need to look at and we're happy to take that on board. Thank you. Supplementary with regard to Ian Gray's line of questioning. I hope that you're saying Clownslam and Cabe with regard to local democratic accountability. I wonder about the issue of exemptions because the committee has heard variations across the country in terms of exemptions. In certain local authorities, free school meals, for example, will be used as a measure. Sibling discount might apply in certain local authorities, but not in other areas. I wonder, therefore, if Clownslam might take a view with regard to exemptions nationally so that there should be at least a level playing field in terms of exemptions. As I said earlier, that particular issue has been discussed at our board and our board has been quite clear. Our board comprises the education spokesperson for the 32 councils. Our board has been absolutely clear that what will be included in the guidance is the minimum criteria of free school meal entitlement. Any decisions to apply further exemptions will be for local councils to apply. We're simply representing the views of our members. It's not our job to tell our members what to do. We're representing the views of our members. A number of councils were very strong in that particular matter. Did the board take a view with regard to there being a cap on the level that councils charge? No. Okay, thank you. Ms Mackay. It's very similar to my colleague's question about local autonomy, et cetera. I was going to ask if COSLA ever gave guidelines or guidance to councils about anything. I've answered that because you did about school meals. Is that the case then? You can be selective. I'm not being selective. We were approached by the Government around that particular area. The Government obviously had received strong lobbying from particular interest groups, perfectly legitimate. The Government said that they would be prepared to provide additional funding. We had a discussion around the Government. We came to a potential agreement. We took that through the appropriate democratic decision-making processes in COSLA, which, on that occasion, was the 32 leaders of the councils who were there to represent the views of their 32 councils. They signed up to that particular package. Every council then implemented from the start of the new academic term a minimum school clothing grant of £100. Some have a school clothing grant more than £100. I understand that, but that was on the back of you getting more money to take that decision. Have you ever issued guidelines where money is not on the table? We're intending to issue guidance around this particular area. We're working on that guidance in discussing it with the Government and the other stakeholders. Sorry about music tuition. Yes. Do you want to expand on that? Eddie can come in in particular detail around that, but, as I said earlier on, it's about setting a minimum with regard to charging around free school meal entitlement, not charging for the SQA, but also providing information on good practice and looking at drawing from other councils' experiences. I suppose that some councils want to change their policy in the back of that guidance to be perfectly entitled to do it, but it's not imposing a policy. We're simply providing with guidance, Eddie. Do you want to give in a bit more detail? Just as Councillor McCabe said, we're looking at writing into that that there will be no charging for SQA, which goes back to the recommendations from 2013. We're looking at free school meals being the minimum, and it's important to recognise within that that a lot of councils go further than that and go further than just free school meals being the minimum, but we want to see that as a minimum exemption. At the same time, we also want to look at how one of the things that we've heard from campaigners is about communication and how the decisions around charging is communicated that can be quite frustrating for families and for parents, so we want to see if we can get some transparency around that, around rationale for charging and explaining why this hasn't to be done as well. We're also perhaps looking at unintended consequences because we know that there are sometimes, in these difficult decisions, consequences that you don't really think about and doing that through highlighting good practice, because we know that across the country there is really good practice. I think what you heard from councillors as well about whether a bursary is in place, whether the things that can really ease the pressure, both on the council in terms of providing it, but particularly on families as well. We're working on that at the moment. We're going to be doing that and co-working closely with the Scottish Government on it and with the music education partnership group as well. They've got a lot of examples that they can bring and a lot of expertise that they can bring, so we're very open to doing that. We're just trying to find a way here to, I suppose, improve the situation as much as we can. That thing is fair to say. That guidance will only be implemented and issued if approved by our board made up of the conveners of the 32 councils. Thank you. Mr Mundell. Yr cymdeinidol, councillor McCabe, you mentioned just there in answer to a colleague that previous initiatives and policy changes have come about when you've been approached by the Scottish Government. Have you been approached by the Scottish Government at all in relation to instrumental music tuition? Not formally, no. Just before we move on, councillor McCabe, you mentioned about the democratic decision making and setting policies, but all the evidence that we've heard has been really positive around the Youth Music Initiative, which is obviously a policy set by the Scottish Government and delivered in partnership with COSLA. Given that it is local bureaucracy, there are examples of work in practice that can achieve the policy goals and have worked very well in Scotland. I think that across the board music is flourishing in our schools and our local authorities. I've been around for a few years, shall we say, as a councillor, and I've seen in the schools and my authority how music has improved significantly over the last decade or so. In the past, there were schools, yes, that had particular traditions in music. Maybe that was a reflection of the makeup of the pupils and the backgrounds of the pupils, but I now see across the board a very high standard of music within all our local secondary schools, including the school that I attended. My children attended where, perhaps 10 years ago, music wasn't particularly strong, but now it is very strong, so there has been significant progress. There has been an increase in uptake in music tuition on the whole over the last decade or so. There has been more recently a dip. That is potentially in the back of charging issues. I think that music on the whole is flourishing in our schools. Thank you. Councillor McCabe, can I ask you about the article that was in the Herald two days ago, Andy Denham's Herald article. I quote the first paragraph where it says that Midlothian Council is the first local authority in Scotland to pass on the cost of tuition for music qualifications such as higher and advanced higher rather than funding it from its central budget. Were you aware of that? I didn't read that particular article, I have to say often, to find that I can't get beyond the paywall in terms of the Herald articles, but I'm aware of that particular issue and I've seen correspondence around that issue, including from the leader of Midlothian Council. As I understand it, basically again as part of a difficult budget decision, the council, and Eddie will keep me right here, the council made the decision to take the funding of music tuition out of a central budget and ask schools to fund it from their devolved budgets. That's my understanding. Thank you. Would you recognise that should that go ahead, that there is charging for SQA, that that is very much at odds with the views that have been expressed that that shouldn't happen? I don't see that as charging for SQA. The headteacher of the school obviously has a devolved budget and the headteacher of the school can choose to use that devolved budget to obviously not to charge. It does mean all things being equal, there's less money to spend on other things, but that's exactly the situation facing the council. If the council had decided to centrally maintain that budget, then the council would have had to cut something else. That's the harsh realities of life as we face it. If we go on further, in terms of the discussions that were obviously having with the Government around further devolution of budgetary responsibilities to school and empowering headteachers, headteachers will be taking more decisions like that because that's what seems to be the consensus. Cross-party consensus that headteachers should have more power and accountability for budgets and decision-making. I think that the middle-olding of taking that particular approach, who am I to criticise that approach? Thank you for your view on that. I think that there is a very serious issue here, not just for music tuition generally, but if there are to be charges for pupils sitting SQA qualifications in music when that doesn't occur for other SQA qualifications. Would COSLA as the umbrella body for the councils be happy about that, where it's obviously discriminating very much against music in relation to other subjects? Well, as I said, in the last meeting of our board we got agreement from the board, and I'm sure that middle-olding were actually represented at the board meeting that there would be no charging for SQA exams. And, as I said, as I understand it, there won't be charging in schools in middle-olding. The school will find funding for that from their devolved budget, which comes to them from the council. I would like to think that you might be right on that, but this article is making very clear that the campaigners who fear that other councils, and I quote again, other councils will adopt this tactic and could see the decline in the number of pupils sitting music exams. They will restrict choice with pupils having to select instruments commonly taught at the school, such as percussion and guitar, rather than those requiring expert input from outside for instruments and strings, woodwind and brass. Can I ask again, would COSLA be comfortable about that situation? COSLA's view, as determined by the most recent meeting of our children and young people board, is that councils should not charge for SQA exams for music. That is COSLA's agreed position of the 32 councils, and I do not accept that interpretation that that is charging for exams. The fact of the matter, I have saw a letter from the leader of middle-olding councils. I think that that might have been circulated to the committee, and I think that in that letter from memory, he says that there will not be charges for SQA exams. My final question. The problem that we have as a committee, having heard a lot of the evidence, is that the young people particularly who have been involved in music tuition, and very successfully, if I may say so, there are serious concerns that many youngsters are being excluded, particularly if these charges are obviously very difficult to pay for just now. We know without any doubt that youngsters are not taking up music tuition as a result of that. That kind of concern just adds to that. Even if it was not passed on to the parents, we know that that is probably going to happen. Even if it did not, the schools do not have the same ability to make the choices that are required to allow that equity across the board. Do you accept that? I do not accept that those charges will be passed on to parents. I have a letter from the leader of Midlothian Council saying that is not going to happen, so I do not accept the premise of your question. The fundamental reality is whether schools, councils or any other public body are all making difficult decisions at this point in time, and we are all making difficult decisions that affect young people as well. Last year, when my council was going through our budget process and we had a huge list of savings proposals, many of those potentially affected young people, such as the reduction in youth services, such as introducing and charging for free swimming, for swimming where we have currently got swimming free. There is a whole range of areas. If you want to take music in isolation or education in isolation, which happens a lot of the time, then that is fine. You can have a particular debate around priorities. Councils have to deliver a whole range of services to a whole range of people, and we have to make difficult decisions constantly around these and prioritisation. Politics is the language of priorities. Socialism is the language of priorities. That is the fundamental reality today. You have to make hard decisions in life, and we are faced with those hard decisions in life, and we want to try and give our young people the best opportunities in life. Absolutely. I would want a whole range of services that are currently charged for to be free, but I have to live in the real world. I have to live within the funding that this Parliament allocates to my council, somewhere in the region of 85 per cent of the funding of my council comes directly from a block grant from the Government and via this Parliament. We then raise somewhere in the region a 10 to 12 per cent from council tax. This Parliament dictates how much we can increase council tax by, and then we are left with fees and charges. The simple reality is why have fees and charges across the board in councils went up over the last decade because of a freeze and now a cap in the council tax and because of a real-terms reduction in block grants. We are increasing charges in burial grounds, we are increasing charges in parking, a whole range of services we have increased or introduced new charges in, and that is the simple fact of life that we deal with on a day-to-day basis. A brief supplementary on Liz Smith's line of questioning with regard to selection tests. Are quite routinely used across the country by local authorities to identify people's I don't like to use the expression but with aptitude, which can in itself cause a level of inequity. Does Cosa have a view with regard to the use of selection tests? I have an idea on that. At this moment, no. I would have to come back to you on that one. OK, and just then following on from that. There also seems to be a variation in terms of when people's are first exposed to music tuition and what instruments they are offered. Does Cosa have a view with regard to that? Not at the moment but I'll come back to you on that. Thank you. Just to continue what Liz Smith was asking about earlier on in relation to Midlothian Council, the letter that we received said that secondary schools could be charged up to £38,000 per year for music tuition recharge. What impact would that have on the other activities that the school would previously have provided if they had to meet £38,000 of the cost? Well, I think that £38,000 is across the authority. No, it says it will result in sums between £7,000 and £38,000 being recovered from individual secondary school budgets. I'm not familiar with how many schools there are in Midlothian. I don't know the size of each of the secondary schools but I suspect £38,000 in the typical budget of a secondary school would be a reasonably significant amount of money. Yes, absolutely. But what decisions would be made by the head teacher as a consequence, I wouldn't know. I wouldn't be able to say and guess that. As I said earlier, the reality is that that will mean that the school will have less money to spend on other things just as if the council bore that cost to council would have less money to spend on other things. And if other councils were to start rolling this out would cause a discuss this at their board level and issue guidance about whether they thought it was an effective way to recover funds? We have no indication that any council is planning to do that. So it's not something that we have considered or have a view on. I'm sure that if it came up at our board the board would have a view but I'd need to see what the view of the board is. If, say, additional funding was found for music tuition and there is no ring fence how do you guarantee that a council would actually use that money for music tuition? I don't think you can guarantee that. Absolutely. In causalers' position on behalf of local government would be that we don't like ring fence because we are democratically elected in the same way that you're democratically elected and that we basically should have discretion as to how we spend the public's money and if the public are not happy with decisions that we make on that then they can exercise their democratic right to express that satisfaction at the following election. Okay, thanks so much. I'm very conscious of time so I know there's some members wanting in at the end but I'm going to move to Joanne Lamont. It's just a very brief question really. I think one of the arguments that's been I mean I hear exactly what you say about the financial context having to make tough choices there's no easy choice you're choosing between lots of bad options but I think the argument put by folk who are advocates for music is that it is being treated differently from other subjects that it's not a level playing field you know and I would be concerned for an example there will be some secondary schools in Glasgow which no longer offer geography history and modern studies they may offer one or two of them. I wonder what your view is on the argument that's been made that music and music tuition which is the core part of getting an SQA qualification is looked at differently from the cost round somebody studying another subject and it's caused that I looked at this question of making sure that all subjects are treated with the same kind of value and understanding what is core to some of these subjects. In the second question not to take up too much time the other argument that's put forward by music tuition specialists is there were a tipping point that if there's a reduction in uptake we'll lose the qualified teachers people will not train in that they'll not do that job any longer and that's improved we won't be able to recover and I wonder if you've got a view on that I'm going to bring Eddie in in those particular points but in terms of music being treated differently music tuition being treated differently it's a discretionary service so it's different that's the reality of it if you're doing an SQA qualification you're in higher and advanced higher you need to be able to use instruments you can't do it otherwise not that we accept that in that sense it's not discretionary and I wonder whether because in people's heads the tuition bit is seen as different rather than fundamental it then gets treated differently I'm not disagreeing with you at all around the financial context and the tough choices I just wonder what reassurance you can give around music not being seen as a language or whatever I would hope that all councillors and all schools value music absolutely and will do their best to make it as accessible as possible to young people and support young people to achieve the qualifications that they're capable of achieving but with regard to music tuition it is discretionary unless it's obviously part of the process of leading to qualification My point is that if it's fundamental to an SQA qualification and science or whatever there wouldn't be the same view I'm simply asking the question there wouldn't be the same view that somehow we can pass that on to the school or to the individual in the same way our view would be appropriate music tuition as provided to those who are studying for exams there may well be and I've obviously read the briefing papers there may well be views that that tuition should apply from an earlier stage absolutely there's a debate to be had around it and as I said earlier I'm no any expert in music I would imagine the earlier you start learning instruments the better you are by the time you come to so absolutely there's a debate around that and in an ideal world I'd like my council to be able to provide free music tuition from a very early age very early and through to secondary but we don't live in an ideal world we wouldn't ask somebody who's sitting high of French on to start studying it in 5th year I absolutely get the context the financial context I simply put to you that I don't think that there's a general good in music tuition there's a fundamental need in music tuition if you're going to do it in an SQA I wonder why there's arts in 5th year my point is if it's discretionary so if I need to do I have to be taught an instrument in order to sit higher but I'm being expected to pay for that because tuition is regarded as discretionary or schools expect to pay for it my question to you is is that fair or has music seen as different and that somehow the tuition is a bonus rather than a necessary part it clearly is seen as different because it's a discretionary service but I'll bring Eddie in I've nothing not that much to add and I take the point that there's obviously an issue there and a debate to be had around that and maybe that's something we can look at in guidance as well around unattended consequences but at the moment that's as much as we can do but I don't really have much to add to what councillor McCabe said second question it was really this question about I forgot one second question but I'm interested in whether is there a causal approach to looking at the offer of subjects across the board because if you no longer have a geography teacher you no longer offer geography that school no longer has that opportunity you could argue is the broader context about people making tough budget choices which then mean that the breadth of opportunities within school are more limited and that's not necessarily the fault of local authority but it is another consequence perhaps of the funding challenges I don't think it's something that we in particular have looked at but I think the consequences or the reasons for that are probably not just financial it's about shortage of teachers as well and funding is a big part of a shortage of teachers and the question earlier was about workforce planning we have huge issues in terms of workforce planning across the whole education estate and let's be clear you are touching on the next generation of music instructors the pressure is not just for charging the pressure in councils is to actually reduce the number of music instructors as well that's the simple reality there are councils who have probably reduced music instructors or who have savings options to reduce the number of music instructors and it might be instructors in particular instruments which are not particularly popular very limited numbers so it's not just around charging councils are actually looking at savings that may well reduce the number of music instructors as well that's the fundamental point that they were making which is if you cut too deep now it's not survivable through to the point where perhaps a better financial context that's just the harsh reality of decisions as I said we're making on a day-to-day basis and we can sit here in this room and discuss music tuition but you can get to another committee it's got another area and discuss something else that's the hard decisions that are being made as a consequence of the decisions made by the elected members of this Parliament so I would urge you if you're concerned about reductions in cuts in the essential services that are provided by the local government you've got an opportunity in the coming weeks and months to address that by giving local government a fair settlement and on that fair settlement Mr McKay, because I have made a submission to the government for next week's budget does it include music? it doesn't include music specifically I mean we're looking for a fair settlement overall there's no specific ask on music but obviously if we were to get the settlement that we're seeking that would make it far easier for councils to protect services like music I assume when COSLA make that submission they build up to the different portfolio areas you make a very fair point about the spread of kinds of services you build up across the portfolios that you're responsible for a number which comes in at the top line in terms of the education aspects which I guess is your responsibility isn't specifically included in that ask No, but it's part of the overall current cost of the delivering education and we would obviously look at what they would cost to deliver the same service next year and inflate that Lauren is our expert I'm sorry, my voice might go and I apologise about that in terms of where music sits that sits very much as part of local authorities core budgets where over the last few years when since 2011-12 because of initiative funding we've seen core budgets reduced from 98 per cent of the funding that local government received in terms of the block grant to 88 per cent and because of ring fencing on various parts of the budget including things like teacher numbers and the cost to deliver health and social care et cetera the savings that local government have to make from core budgets can only be taken from 42 per cent of the budget that comes to a local authority so actually when we talk about core budgets we're talking about services like music tuition and the impact of reductions on those core budgets are significant and they become more significant every year and they also become more significant the more there are ring fenced pots of money and initiative funding and that's where the sticking plaster that Councillor McCabe talked about earlier actually makes things quite difficult for local government because it deals with issues in quite a siloed and singular way and that's not the way that local government have to set their budgets so the core funding is really the place that we're talking about when we talk about instrumental music tuition and protection of the core is something that is vital and that's very fair just on the policy from your earlier answers to colleagues on the table you're not arguing for a dedicated fund for four million pounds to do away with music tuition are you that's not part of your pitch and in policy terms you're not arguing for ring fencing therefore by definition that's correct so therefore when we ask the government do they have a rule on what they're going to do about it your request of them is not to increase you need to include a ring fenced amount for music tuition what you're arguing for is core funding to be augmented but the government never mind Parliament would have no say because it's a democratic responsibility of your councils to make decisions over what would happen to music tuition in the future that's fair to say okay that's fine okay thank you Mr McDonald's you find a thing in Mr Mackay I ask you if you know of any local authorities that are piloted different mechanisms for a different framework for introducing music is that good practice you were talking about earlier so is that something that you're going to issue guidance on to the other local authorities okay bring it in I can't go through specific examples but we certainly know both from the music education partnership group that they work with and they're aware of a lot of local authorities who do things a wee bit differently we heard last week I think no two weeks ago was it from the councils where there was a number of initiatives I think Perth and Ross introduced bursaries so there was different ways to do that so we're looking at what can we highlight as good practice that could be adopted by authorities to take that kind of pressure off so that would be a central part where we may peg on on how we develop that just going back to Joanne Lamont's question about discretionary subjects it strikes me that music is a creative subject and art is a creative subject in school and yet art doesn't seem to come into the equation when it comes to it being singled out would you have any view on that at all I don't think I would have any if it's not something that I've thought of it certainly back in back in 2012 I think this debate was going on and I think it was generally recognised that there was a cost to music you know there was a cost to music tuition and learning a musical instrument that there might not be attached to other subjects but I mean that's the only thing that you can think of because there is in terms of the instrument and travel and if it's orchestras and local authorities you know whilst charging has gone on we have to recognise that there's a whole load of good work goes on orchestras and music initiatives right across Scotland that continue so it's not that music scene is a kind of luxury subject then it's just that it's easiest one to cut when it comes to costs I wouldn't say it's a luxury subject I think probably just the resource in terms of music tuition and instruments etc it's more costly than any other subject Mr Gray did you want to come back in how you cut you short earlier on you think Dr Allen you want to do that Yes thanks in a sense I'm picking up the same point as Ms Lamont picked up on but I just want to say that again relevant I think one of the things that I'm telling us was that the overwhelming disparity in terms now of people coming into studies after school and music from a private school background and again I just wonder since you undertook there on Ms Lamont asked her question to look at some of these questions you know whether you would consider issues of equality and inequality around that because as Ms Lamont pointed out and I do want to point this out again I can't think of other subjects where you would be told in fifth year well you haven't been able to afford to get to the necessary stage where you can actually do advanced higher will offer you the necessary tuition now but it's too late Music like every other subject is life long learning you can pursue music or qualifications for your life You can't if you can't afford to Well there's lots of things that you can't do in this world in this life because you can't afford to that's a simple reality Chemistry I'm not talking about particular subjects I'm talking about things in life that you can do that some people can do because their parents can afford it and other things you can't do because your parents can't afford it that's life unfortunately that's part of the reflection of the unequal society that we live in but you wouldn't apply that argument to chemistry I'm not applying it to chemistry but reality in terms of music tuition obviously is it's a discretionary service it's a costly service and in relation to particular instruments you need etc there's a cost to that legislatively it's a discretionary service that's the difference we're not comparing like we're like the Parliament may choose to change that that's entirely a decision for yourselves I'm in with the situation as it stands now and the very difficult choices that councils have to make and I reiterate the point I'm absolutely sure that no council would wish to charge for services if they thought there was an alternative to a better alternative and I'm absolutely sure no council would charge if we were properly funded I just ask a final question Councillor McCabe I've spoken to a number of young people in different contexts over the course of this investigation and for many of them who weren't going on to study music when they talked about their experience of the instrumental music service and the orchestras for them it wasn't about achieving a level of excellence in music it was about the friendship groups it was about the additional skills they had working with a group not letting people down and a huge issue for all of us at the moment is about the health and all of them expressed a view about it being a de-stresser and things and speaking to some of the councils I would say that in some councils that's very well understood but maybe in other councils it's not and the decision making process that's been made on the budgets aren't made on the same basis where it's considered a core subject and absolutely vital in some areas and not in others a view on the approach towards music from that point a view particularly as you've mentioned quite frequently unintentionals consequences of actually losing the service across the councils I don't think we've got a particular view at this point in time I think there's many views and local government around music and the value of music and absolutely I value music and I think all young people should be able to pursue the interests and whether that be sport or music or some other form of arts absolutely and we want to create as many opportunities as we can for young people and we will reflect on the outcome of this inquiry we're not conducting an inquiry around these particular issues because that's not the remit we've got from our board but we will reflect and we'll take the outcome of this inquiry back to our board for consideration and if there are lessons that can be learnt absolutely councils will give them serious consideration Kate I think that draws our questions to a conclusion this morning I thank you once again councillor Kate and the officials from COSLA we do really appreciate you coming and engaging with the committee this morning I am going to suspend briefly while we change over witnesses Good morning and welcome to our second panel this morning and I would like to welcome and Cabinet Secretary for Education and Skills and Malcolm Pentland Head of Curriculum Unit at the Scottish Government and I understand Cabinet Secretary you'd like an opening statement Thank you convener if I could make a brief opening statement the Scottish Government recognises the importance of all of the expressive arts for Scotland's culture and economy we know to the many significant benefits that participation in music and the arts can have on the lives of our children and young people and their families participation in music and the arts provides children and young people with opportunities to be creative and imaginative and to experience inspiration and enjoyment contributing greatly to the mental, emotional social and physical wellbeing opportunities for children and young people to learn to play a musical instrument through tuition in our schools is an important element of participation in the arts Scotland has a music education system with an instrumental music service operating in every local authority that has been highly regarded across the United Kingdom and internationally for its quality and inclusivity indeed this was highlighted in the instrumental music groups 2013 report I understand and share the concerns of young people, their parents and families and those working in the sector over any reduction in the quality or reach of those services in any part of Scotland as the committee is aware the Scottish education system is set up in such a way that decision making is devolved to the most appropriate level enabling local education authorities to make choices that meet their local circumstances and needs local authorities decide how to provide instrumental music tuition depending on local circumstances, priorities and traditions whilst maintaining respect for the autonomy of our local authorities the Scottish Government is committed to working collaboratively with partners a working group led by the chair of the music education partnership group and bringing together representation from the government and the convention of local authorities is actively considering ways to ensure that instrumental music tuition remains accessible that work is on going and progress has been made towards ensuring minimal eligibility criteria for full concessions for tuition in certain circumstances and on the development of clear guidance for local authorities I welcome the committee's interest in this issue and the opportunity to answer questions from members and I look forward to giving full consideration to the conclusions of the committee's inquiry and I look forward to the outcomes of the working group and recommendations of what is going on now report to be published early in the new year Thank you cabinet secretary I want to ask about the evidence the committee has heard about the breadth of variation in the schemes for instrumental tuition so in your opening remarks you made the perfectly correct point that these are local decisions which are taken by local authorities nonetheless the current position varies from those authorities where instrumental tuition is free for everyone, to others where families are asked to contribute quite a few hundreds of pounds for each child Are you confident that you can make the right decision and that you can make the right decision Do you content with that variation or are you concerned about it I think that as Mr Gray correctly says there's a variation and there are some authorities that are not charging at all and some that are charging what I would consider to be significant amounts of money for instrumental music tuition in a year because I think that there is quite clearly a risk that the cost is an inhibitor to the participation of young people within instrumental music tuition and given the context of my remarks to the committee this morning already the committee would be right to conclude that I view participation in instrumental music tuition as advantageous to young people within Scotland I appreciate that and I think that the committee I've certainly heard evidence that there is a risk that some are discouraged from participating because of charging and actually some evidence for example from the improvement service which shows that even those young people because they're eligible for free school meals who wouldn't have to pay actually participate less in instrumental music tuition than the rest of the school population I know that equity in our education system is something that you Mr Swinney are concerned about and often talk about does that worry you then Yes because clearly there are factors with which we are all familiar around eligibility for free school meals which obviously weighed very heavily in the Government's consideration when we moved to make school meals free for primary one to three pupils because we felt there was a danger that young people who were eligible for free school meals were not taking up free school meals and getting the nutritional value of that within the day were essentially discouraged because of the danger of stigma from taking up those free school meals the same issues can apply to instrumental music tuition obviously there are ways in which schools in their knowledge of pupils and their knowledge of circumstances can handle these matters in a fashion that can be carefully handled to make sure that that is not in fact an impediment to young people participating I do accept that there is a risk of that as a consequence That is an example you have given our Cabinet Secretary of addressing a problem by moving to universality in terms of school meals P1 to 3 so all the evidence that we have heard from local authorities in the inquiry has been the decisions about increasing or imposing charging for instrumental music tuition have been taken for reasons of financial constraint nobody has said to us we've introduced charging because we thought educationally that was a good idea they've all said it's about balancing the budget so an obvious way out of this would be for the Scottish Government centrally to provide funding to allow instrumental music tuition to be provided free across the board this morning that was put to COSLA to Councillor McCabe who made it clear that that would not be their preferred option because they don't like ring ffencing but also made clear that pragmatically they would be open to that kind of discussion so have you ever considered that as a possibility or discussed that with COSLA? I haven't considered that yet because I think what the data shows us is that some local authorities despite all of the issues that are raised in general about local authority finance attach the priority to this that they make eligible access to instrumental music tuition free and that's the case in a number of local authorities including some of our very significant authorities Dundee, Edinburgh, the Western Isles Glasgow, Orkney, Renfisher and Weston Bartonshire so some local authorities within the context of the challenges that surround the public finances have taken a policy decision that eligibility should be free other local authorities have taken decisions to charge and to charge at more modest levels and some authorities have applied higher charges but I think fundamentally the issue which emerges to me out of the evidence that is available to us is that some local authorities recognise the value of instrumental music tuition and want to put in place no barriers to the access to instrumental music tuition as a consequence of the decisions that they themselves have made within their local authority finances but the same arguments would apply for example to levels of school clothing grant where the government did take a view that they would provide additional funding in order to have a more equitable service why is this different well in some circumstances when some circumstances here authorities are opting to provide an entirely free service some of them had high school clothing grants but in a circumstance of tackling I think there's a difference between school clothing grants and instrumental music tuition where clothing grants are about making sure that young people are properly supported to maintain their accessibility to education that is to me a pretty fundamental point about the ability of young people to participate in education instrumental music tuition is not available to every pupil and what we have to be careful about and this is where individual local authorities are making judgments about this point that we retain that accessibility for young people who have an interest and an enthusiasm to pursue that instrumental music tuition because in other aspects of our policy agenda for example through the youth music initiative we enable all pupils to have some experience of instrumental music tuition so in a different aspect of our policy agenda through the youth music initiative we are making it possible for every pupil to have that experience this is about what I would equate to the school clothing grant this is a provision which is about ensuring that young people who have an interest and an aptitude to pursue this are able to pursue it without impediment Mr Greer I tell you to First Minister in 1980 the UK Government began direct funding of places at the private St Mary's music school in Edinburgh that's been continued since devolution by the Scottish Executive and then by the Scottish Government £1 billion a year of public money going to a private music school for funded places. What assessment has the Scottish Government made of the value for money of that funding? Obviously we consider on an annual basis in dialogue with St Mary's music school the considerations that are relevant in relation to that public expenditure we assess the contribution that is made to the development of music education in Scotland as a consequence of that and we judge accordingly the funding that is made available to the music school on the basis of that assessment It doesn't publicly appear as if assessment has been made but I accept that a substantial portion of budget setting each year doesn't look like that but at the beginning of this process I was told by a member of the Scottish Youth Parliament who herself had been affected by the increase in charges in West Lodin's public schools for music education She described the situation as creating Victorian levels of inequality Can you understand why when music education in our state schools is being squeezed as a result of wider budget constraints the significant funding of a private music school can give the appearance of that Victorian level of inequality only being compounded? I don't really see a connection between the two issues to be honest The St Mary's music school is a particular institution of musical excellence which has been received long standing funding from the public purse The Government also supports specialist musical institutions I should say specialist artistic institutions within our state schools Brought in high school for example is one such school that is supported directly We support through the local government settlement through Highland Council the music school in Plotton We also support the dance school which is part of a drum chapel high school There are a number of ways in which through the state system we support specialist artistic provision within the state system Obviously there is provision of instrumental music tuition through the state school sector in general but obviously the issues of charging which Mr Greer raises with me may present themselves as a financial impediment to some people's participation in that education You have mentioned that there are centres of excellence within our state school system why does the Government believe that it is greater value for money to provide roughly £1.2 million to St Mary's rather than to provide them either to those centres of excellence within our state system or elsewhere within the state system Because we are acknowledging the long standing value to musical education in Scotland that has been provided by St Mary's music school and I think that when there is acknowledged expertise in the school the government has judged that it would not be appropriate to discontinue that support we recognise the value that this provides and the specialist opportunities for young people to thrive as a consequence of their participation there The block grant for local government that in turn results in music tuition being provided within state schools to a greater or lesser extent in 2010 and we will have that debate all over again this year in the coming weeks but in that same period of time the grant given to this private school has not reduced at all why is that the case when the funding being provided to public schools who will eventually provide the same service has been reduced There is a variety of different issues in relation to local authority expenditure clearly the government has had to wrestle since 2010 with significant reductions in our budget we have dealt with local government fairly within that context and indeed in the last three years local authority education expenditure has been increasing and in the current financial year is increasing in real terms increased in real terms in the last year so there is to bear in mind all of the different elements of the pattern of local authority financing that have taken their course and of course within that perspective on local authority financing individual local authorities and I have recounted them to Mr Gray already have decided that they will not apply any charging for instrumental music tuition when it comes to the issues in connection with St Mary's music school we do get to questions and levels of viability of institutions if we significantly reduce resources that are available to them and that would be an issue the government would have to consider very carefully in how we has been a consequence of the actions that could be taken from a reduction in financing Just one final question SSI in relation to the planning for St Mary's was in 2015 when does the government intend to bring forward the next SSI in relation to these regulations I would have to check the details of what is required I suspect an SSI would only be required if we were changing the financing arrangements which would be to increase them and I obviously don't want to prejudge the context of the finance secretary's budget next week so I perhaps better not give a specific answer to the question that was to be raised any further for me or I really will be in some difficulty Thank you One of the questions that I was asking and others were asking the COSLA representatives who were here earlier on today was essentially whether they took a view beyond saying that these things are a matter for the local authorities whether they had any collective position or took any collective responsibility and the question that I was raising which I'd be interested to have your take on was about the agreement that was reached between the Government and COSLA in 2012 or 2013 following the Government's working group and report on instrumental music tuition they were a bit vague if I'm honest about whether they felt that local authorities were still living up to what they'd agreed in 2012 when it comes to instrumental music tuition and what shouldn't shouldn't be done I wonder did the Government have a view on whether local authorities were living up to what they promised The fact that the committee is having this inquiry and the fact that I've been in discussions with the music education partnership group and the fact that I've been encouraging local government to participate in the working group that has been set up under the auspices of the music education partnership which of course includes the Government within that I think it's indicative of the fact that I'm concerned about where this whole issue is moving to I'm concerned about that because I think if there is a diminiation and participation in instrumental music tuition the nature diversity and opportunity within our education system will be diminished as a consequence and many of these issues are underpinned the consideration that led to the work that was done in 2012-2013 on this question so I think there is a danger that we are the circumstances that cause concern then are about to reappear in 2018 and for that reason we are taking forward the collaborative approach that we're taking forward now there are some careful judgments to be made here as members will be aware the Government and as I said in my opening remarks the Government fully respects the autonomy of local authorities so we want to work with local authorities to try to address these questions to ensure that we do not see any diminiation in instrumental music provision which we believe would be detrimental to the wellbeing of young people in Scotland and this relates to questions that a number of people were asking of the last witnesses but I think an on-going theme in this committee has been particularly about one undertaking that was made in 2013 I think it was by local authorities that we wouldn't see them making charges for instrumental tuition that led up to an SQA qualification I wondered if you had a view about again whether they were living up to that because a number of witnesses, people we've had in from the Royal Conservatoire and many others have raised a question about whether it's practical to ask people to sit and advanced higher music if they've been unable to afford the tuition that gets them to a position where they can actually sit that exam from an earlier stage than a year or two before they sit the exam I think on the hard question are local authorities charging young people for instrumental music tuition which is an integral part of an SQA qualification I can see no evidence of that happening with the exception that I am concerned by what I'm seeing in Midlothian Council which I don't think is consistent with the spirit of that commitment it may be just about passable in terms of the letter of it consistent with the spirit of the the point that was made in the 2013 report there is a different issue which is about what happens prior to the S4 participation in national 4 and national 5 and other qualifications and that is I think relates to whether or not accessibility to instrumental music tuition is in any way hindered by the existence of any form of charging which of course gets into the differentiation between the number of authorities that don't charge at all and those who charge something for that and those who charge quite significant amounts and I think we have to look very carefully at the participation level in that respect to ensure that there is no obstacle being put in the place of young people from accessing those qualifications as a result of the preparation that they've had beforehand Thank you Miss Smith, did you want Yes, thank you Can I just follow up Cabinet Secretary on this issue about SQA qualifications I agree with you that there are concerns in Midlothian there is obviously a difficult issue here because of purpose to have devolved autonomy for local authorities indeed for individual schools but do you accept that given what you've said in previous discussions in both the chamber and in committee that it is not appropriate to levy SQA charges on individual families for any SQA exam do you accept that Yes Therefore, if that is the Government's policy which I think we all agree with would you be concerned about any circumstance where particularly for music which seems to be singled out from other subjects if a local authority like Midlothian who claim that they have taken this decision to make the decision one for a head teacher would you be concerned that there were other cutbacks to be made in that local authority that there is a possibility that we could end up with a decision where a head teacher might decide to place the charge on parents to get that extra money for an SQA exam that there feels to me to be quite a lot of hypothetical in there for me to respond to I think my point and principle is that I don't think families should be charged for individuals participating in SQA exams that's my point of principle I think what what the Midlothian example highlights is the justification that I've seen from the local authority is that they are providing the discretion for individual schools to decide what is the level of participation and therefore to meet this interim charge I think that needs to be considered within the scope of how much discretion does an individual school have over its finances because obviously the significance of that decision on music tuition will be in direct relationship to what is the degree of control that the school has over its wider finances and I don't think it will be as wide as I think it would need to be to make that an entirely transparent and reasonable judgment to make and do you accept that obviously we've had an awful lot of evidence presented to this committee in the last month or so where people feel very strongly that music is the poor relation here that other subjects are not having the same debate, they're not having the same discussion and that it's that that is creating a sort of inequity and a feeling that if you really want to pursue music in your SQA qualifications not only do you have to sit these subjects with good choice in S4, S5, S6 but there is an impact further down the school do you accept that music has been singled out as having particular difficulties in this respect? I wouldn't see why that would be the case given the fact that the broad general education encompasses the eight curricular areas which will include the expressive arts and music within that whole provision and obviously we look very carefully at the way in which the broad general education is delivered across schools to make sure that young people are receiving a holistic education that reflects those eight curricular areas so I don't see inherently why that should be the case but obviously if a young person and this relates to my response to Dr Allan a moment ago if a young person has had exposure to instrumental music tuition that will obviously be of assistance to them in pursuing SQA qualifications at a later stage in the senior phase so there is a relationship in relation to that question but in terms of the broad general education I don't see a direct connection that could be applied there. What would you say to one of the trainee music teachers who came to speak to us via the Royal Conservatoire who made the point that for one youngster in a class that they were involved with that family had had to make a decision because they knew that they weren't going to be able to afford the tuition fees further up the school so they didn't bother doing anything about music further down the school do you accept that that's impacting on the choices that are available to youngsters particularly if they come from a deprived community? It may have that impact and that's why we've got to be concerned and anxious about the scale and nature of the charges where they are levied by some local authorities. I'd just like to follow up on from Liz Smith's line of questioning Cabinet Secretary with regard to the use of selection tests because I know local authorities across the country to some extent and it does vary and I don't like to use the expression but it has been suggested that they look at aptitude as early as primary 4 to identify whether or not a child should be offered music tuition and I heard what you were saying in terms of that exposure to musical instruments to pursue a qualification at SQA level later in your academic journey so I'd like to perhaps get your views with regard to the use of selective testing should there be some sort of conformity across the board in terms of when children are offered music tuition and what instruments they are offered? I think that would get us into a level of prescription which I think would run at odds with the approach to the delivery of the curriculum in Scottish education because I think there will be judgments that will be made by individual schools as to how the exposure to instrumental music tuition fits in with the wider curriculum that is taken forward so I think I would be cautious about taking such an approach because I think it would essentially be us applying an approach within education on music tuition which is not really reflected in our wider approach to the curriculum. Okay, if I can just jump back then to Ian Gray's line of questioning with regard to exemptions because we've spoken already about pre-school meal entitlement perhaps being used as an exemption and COSLA did accept that it should be the minimum but there are variations obviously nationally at certain local authorities offered discounts for siblings should that then be looked at I suppose as a national standard I am concerned that certain local authorities for example write out to parents to advise them as to whether or not their child might be entitled to an exemption perhaps that's not the best method of communication do you have a view with regard to exemptions and that kind of consistency across the board I think wherever we are applying any form of charge and there may then be an issue of exemptions based on income background or whatever judgments are applied in this respect I think these issues have got to be handled with great care by individual schools because as I explained in my response to Mr Gray earlier on I think we've seen in relation to the eligibility for free school meals that can sometimes be something which carries a stigma with it for young people so these judgments have got to be handled with great care when I look at some of the examples of how schools are using pupil equity funding for example they may be using that funding to provide for particular interventions for all pupils but there may require to be judgments deployed to take into account the circumstances of individual young people and I see very good practice in how that judgment is arrived at and how that is handled in dialogue with families and I suppose the key to this is the knowledge that schools have of individual families in circumstances which to me is a great advantage in enabling schools to make a judgment about how they can sensitively deal with these questions Thank you Cabinet Secretary you've been very candid in acknowledging the concerns that exist, the concerns that have come I mean the sort of lots of talk of discussing things with stakeholders and moving cautiously is there anything you can identify that can be done to address some of the concerns without breaking that balance between local and central government? Yes, I think that the approach that we're trying to take with the helpful offer from the music education partnership group to set up a specialist group looking at this question to involve the government and local authorities in that group I think is a really helpful measure because it creates a space where government can get together with local government and music specialists and people who are really driven by this agenda and Professor Wallace is quite clearly driven by this agenda and I applaud him for his energy on this matter and that creates a space where we can perhaps make some progress Obviously the music education partnership group is undertaking some research work on this question and obviously the committee is undertaking its inquiry and I hope we can draw together these different elements to try to formulate an approach that can be widely supported in ensuring that the objectives that I think we're all interested in achieving can be fulfilled from this process. Are there any specifics that you as Cabinet Secretary would like to see as part of whatever emerges? Do you have an idea of what you would like to see and expect to see in terms of music tuition? What I want to see is there being an ability for young people to be able to gain access to instrumental music tuition without finance being an obstacle to their participation and I'm concerned about that issue in a whole number of other questions about the availability of skilled professionals about the opportunities for development. I think we have got very good provision in place but I am concerned that the issue of cost is potentially an impediment for some young people. Now what we have already is some local authorities who are taking the view that they will not entertain charges whatsoever and I think that provides a good illustration of how this can be taken forward without impediment and I'm keen to make sure that we get to an outcome in which young people are not in any way impeded from participation because of cost. If we don't get to that point and it's not possible for local authorities to provide that what happens then? Well, we're prejudging the process that we're currently engaged in and I'm keen to make progress on that question. I'm going to bring in Mr Scott. Thank you, I wonder if I could ask your cabinet secretary if you've received any submissions asking for the £4 million cost of charging across Scotland to be covered by the Government. I've not, no. Would you entertain them if there was such a submission? Obviously people are free to come to me whenever propositions they want but that's not been and people are not always people are not backwards at coming forward and asking me to pay for things so I wouldn't be surprised if I received them but I'm interested in the some of what I think I saw Mr Scott questioning Councillor McCabe about earlier on was about the question of what might be the arrangements and circumstances because it was pretty clear from Councillor McCabe's evidence that local government doesn't like ring fencing so that obviously would be a material issue in these conversations. You've preempted to a number of my questions but presumably you'll therefore remove ring fencing on teacher numbers. Well, I think there's actually we have an agreement about boosting teacher numbers and we're very keen for that to be sustained in the period going forward. Okay, thank you. I'm not sure that's quite hard but maybe the more important question is about the discretionary nature of teaching music in our schools. Is the Government giving any consideration to whether that service should remain as discretionary or whether there should be a change in status? That could well emerge from the discussions that we're having with the music education partnership group and if I'm concerned about the dangers that may lie ahead about levels of participation within instrumental music tuition I have to be open to considering the question that Mr Scott raises with me if I want to do something about that issue because I think that Scottish education is the poorer if there was diminished participation in instrumental music tuition and if we cannot find a way of advancing on that agenda in collaboration then we perhaps might have to look at other approaches. The other point. For completeness I should also say in which relates also to my response to Liz Smith that in the broad general education there is a presumption that young people will have an exposure to music as part of the expressive arts element of the curriculum. Indeed. The other point that Councillor McCabe made this morning was that it's not a question of co-funding for local authorities and thus for schools. Do you accept the argument that he's making there that musical tuition financial support is contained at the moment within that structure of local government funding? Yes, because if I go back to the start of this administration in 2007 I took a decision to remove a great deal of ring ffencing of local authority finance and the purpose of that was to enhance and this was an argument which I accepted from local government that this would enhance their spending power because it would remove essentially false barriers within elements of public expenditure and so the removal of ring ffencing gave much more capacity for local authority resources to be stretched further because of the way they were able to draw together different elements of funding rather than having to observe specific constraints and specific requirements of individual ring ffences. The key argument that I accepted from local government was that the removal of ring ffencing expanded the spending power that local authorities had. Now obviously instrumental music tuition is part of the block grant if we call it that to local authorities and within that of course a number of local authorities within the financial constraints with which everybody wrestles are providing instrumental music tuition at no cost to individuals so some local authorities are within all these challenges with which we all wrestle are able to provide that instrumental music tuition for free. I think he read the number who are providing free out in your opening statement and of course the majority are not so is this not one of these issues which ultimately is a trade off central government can decide whether to fund it directly and indeed local government to endorse that they are not asking for it to be funded directly thus no ring ffencing and therefore it's going to come under core funding if they don't have enough core funding as they see it. Mr McCabe used the phrase chronic underfunding I'm not asking you to debate that because we could be all here I'm just asking you the principle if there isn't enough core funding and I don't see how music tuition across Scotland improves I think that amongst the number of authorities that I read out there are a couple of smaller authorities the western Isles and Orkney but there are a number of very large authorities that command large shares of the population including our two largest cities in Edinburgh and Glasgow and also Dundee Renfrewshire one of the largest local authorities in Scotland and Western Bartonshire so these represent a very significant proportion of pupils around the country being having access to if you don't live there I accept that and that raises issues when we then look at Clackmannan council which has got the highest charge of any local authority it's one of the smallest mainland local authorities and obviously there will be financial challenges that exist but I don't think we can just glide past the fact that a very substantial proportion of young people in Scotland are not paying for instrumental music tuition because they are living in these local authority areas who can fund that through the existing local government settlement okay, thank you Mr McDonald, did you want my questions on the colloquial I don't think we want to rehearse the different arguments on local government finance but do you at least accept the point that Councillor McCabe made that nobody in local authorities are making these decisions lightly because they are choosing amongst a lot of hard choices and it's not in their view not discrimination against music tuition it's simply they're having to take hard choices I'm sure that's the case and do you also accept that the relationship you work in partnership with local authorities but you fund them by 85% that is not a new co-relationship I don't see the relevance at that point well I think if I was in a room with somebody who I'm relying on for 85% of my funding and I'm making tough choices then it's not an equal relationship because whatever the Scottish government, whatever its complexity or complexion rather is making decisions around funding which has an impact on local authorities or which they don't have any control I would have thought that would have been evident well then why are some of our largest authorities covering significant proportions of pupil numbers in Scotland able to offer free tuition so your contention is that this is not about funding it is simply about different attitudes to music tuition if that's the case and I agree with you that Glasgow doesn't charge, my own family has benefited from it immensely and I'm very proud of what has been done successfully over many years in Glasgow but Chris Cunningham, the education convener said that local government had disproportionately been affected by decisions around cut budgets and that while yes, they were funding tuition, certainly since I got they believed that there was consequences elsewhere so they are making there are consequences to funding free tuition for music in some local authorities around the other choices that they're making John Lamont, preface our first question to me was saying we weren't going to rehearse local government finance because I think local we've faced very difficult financial choices as a government since 2010 as a consequence of the sustained austerity that's been applied to the Scottish budget and as part of our response to that I think we've treated local government fairly and in that context I think local government has had to endure disproportionately no more challenge than the Scottish Government has had to endure and within that a number of authorities including some of our largest authorities are able to pay for free instrumental music tuition so I think there are choices being made and I think what's important is that we we don't simply say that the answer to that must be for the Government to provide more resources to local government in general because some local authorities are attaching a greater priority to this service than others well your own Chris Cunningham who's education, community and Glasgow said that he believed local authorities were disproportionately affected by cuts you have made that choice I don't understand why you don't simply own that choice and say you've chosen to make the decisions around financing and COSLA and others are saying as a consequence they're having to make tough decisions some local authorities are targeting music tuition others are doing other things but can I maybe move on to this issue about whether music is seen as a different subject from other subjects is there a view at Scottish Government level on the curriculum what is the obligations around subjects that must be available within secondary schools the the the design of curriculum for excellence is structured around eight curricular areas there is an expectation set out of the experience that young people should receive as part of the broad general education which will include exposure to music education as part of the experience that young people have up to the conclusion of S3 as part of the broad general education and that's very clearly distilled by advice from Education Scotland and in my view the participation in music is a critical part of enabling young people to do what curriculum for excellence is aimed to achieve to deliver the four capacities of curriculum for excellence which are about ensuring we support young people to become to equip young people for the world in which they have to face. I wonder whether you monitor what's happening in secondary schools about the range of subjects that are offered to young people so we don't want, of course we want young people to have the opportunity in music we might want, we could argue they should have the opportunity to study geography history and modern studies I think the evidence might suggest that is a narrowing and I wonder if that is at least something that you monitor. We look very carefully at the delivery of the broad general education which as I say exists until the completion of S3 and then obviously we look at the range of qualifications that are achieved by young people and what we see is a pattern of rising attainment as a consequence of young people's participation in the senior phase of education. There is a rise in attainment and a narrowing of subjects which will narrow your opportunity to stage. Can I ask you finally really this question round that has been prompted by the suggestion that you devolve decision making to head teachers I think that Midlothian is suggesting that you would devolve that to school and they can decide whether they are going to make music tuition accessible and not in some people would be concerned about that. Under your model of could you see a situation where a head teacher might say we want to be a centre of expertise in music or drama or something else and therefore we actively are choosing not to invest in one particular bit of the curriculum in order to make us a specialist in expertise in another. Under your model of giving very significant powers to head teachers could that happen and as a consequence under the model perhaps pursued by Midlothian you could see a situation where a head teacher could say I am not going to offer music tuition I am going to use the money in something else. No, because we expect the model of empowered schools that I am taking forward is set within the framework of curriculum for excellence which puts that requirement on schools to ensure that young people have a broad general education that supports the objectives and names of curriculum for excellence. You would not put a requirement on a head teacher to ensure that everybody could be offered advanced higher music though. That does not exist today. Either we are empowering head teachers or we are not it seems to me we are both empowering them. I just wondered whether the model of Midlothian is looking or exploring is something that would be perhaps easier under your model of giving more powers to head teachers. The question that arises which I rehearsed with in my response to Liz Smith about the Midlothian model is what degree of financial flexibility and over what degree of resources does the head teacher have control. I am sceptical that the head teacher in that model has extensive control over finances within the school because what it looks to me is if an internal charge is essentially being passed to a school without the commensurate degree of financial scope and flexibility that I think should do that. Your preferred model would be for the head teacher to have more authority in controlling that. Therefore if that head teacher then decided not to invest in the music tuition that would require for a young person to advance higher or higher music that would be acceptable to you. That would be a bit devolving decision making. The answer is that we will expect head teachers under the model that I am taking forward to deliver the full range of curriculum that is envisaged under curriculum for excellence. It is impossible for it to do both things at once but there you go. Cabinet Secretary, I wonder if I could have your view on the option of music tuition being delivered through a national agency or perhaps moving towards the finished model where there are about 89 Government subsidised music schools and music tuition mandatory in primary schools. Is that something for down the line? I am a bit reluctant about the creation of a new national agency to deliver music education tuition. I do not really see what the problem is here. We have capacity and capability within the education system to provide instrumental music tuition. I think that the type of model of a national agency that I raises with me is something that would essentially be established to address a weakness in that respect which I do not think exists. In relation to the question of centres of excellence again, we have taken some decisions over time to recognise a particular individual a particular focus that would exist in a certain limited number of schools around the country to develop expertise in this area but I am interested in making sure that across the education system there is a participation within an exposure to music education available to all young people and that is an important characteristic of the service that we have today and something that should be maintained in the future. Thank you. Can I pick up a couple of points with you, cabinet secretary? We had a discussion with Cosly and we have talked about them not liking ring fencing and but the youth music initiative strikes me as a project where the policy objectives of the Government have been met with the partners who are delivering in Cosly and it works very well and we heard nothing about praise for the YMMI so do you think that there are mechanisms that can be used to achieve policy objectives working with Cosly? I think that that is an example of the collaborative approach which I think can be successful and it is certainly something that is worth exploring as part of the working group in which we are both participating. Finally, we heard a lot about the sustainability and the idea of a tipping point at the moment in terms of the precarious nature of music going forward because of the pressures and meeting the young people from the conservatory there were a couple that had come through the Glasgow schools and had been exposed to their music through that but everyone of them had to have additional funding through a bursary to cover grades to cover access to I think it was the young conservatoire group or other projects that they were involved in and every single one of the young people we spoke to from whatever background of a school had had to have additional training particularly around the area of piano to be able to form a grade 8 to access the conservatoire to become music teachers but we heard that piano is an instrument that isn't we're unaware of it being told anywhere other than through privately and things so do you have a concern that the curriculum is supporting people who have an aspiration to become music teachers in our state schools? We certainly have to make sure that the curricular experience is sufficiently broad to make sure young people can access these pathways into higher education so I'm certainly if there are specific areas where there are impediments to that I'm certainly very happy to explore them Okay, and I think that the school Ruth wants to... Just as a brief supplementary to Rona Mackay's line of questioning with regard to this being perhaps developed at a national level I wonder if there's maybe an opportunity with regard to the regional improvement collaboratives to look at how this could be driven forward with regard to consistency of provision and sharing good practice at a local level Undoubtedly there's an opportunity to do that and the regional improvement collaboratives have been established and are making good progress and significant impact within the education system because what they are about is sharing expertise and good practice to enhance provision in individual schools around the country so I think that there's an opportunity for such collaboration to assist in overcoming some of the challenges that we face here Thank you Cabinet Secretary, thank you very much for your attendance this morning and to Mr Pentland as well We're about to go into private session but before we do so is this our last public meeting, I wish everyone the very best for the festive season going forward and we now move into private session