I am very glad to see so many people here who are open-minded to the notion of society without the state. Some people are not like that. They will read, they can read in all sorts of things about how bad the state is, but they'll reject without thinking about it the notion we could get along without the state. They put one in mind of the man who read so much about how bad smoking is for your health that he gave up reading. What I like to do in talking about fingers of challenge in state, rather than give a fuel task of giving a comprehensive history of political thought on the subject in 20 minutes, I want to concentrate on what I take to be a curious paradox in the history of political thought on the subject of anarchism. And the paradox is this, if we ask people today about the notion of society, about the state, about anarchism, many people will respond, as Jeff Deist mentioned in his talk, by saying this is a good idea. In theory it would be a very nice thing if we could have a society without the state, but it just wouldn't work. We have to be realistic and accept the existence of the state and perhaps try to limit it, but we couldn't get along without a state, so it's a very good idea, but it just wouldn't work. Now the paradox is if we look to ancient political thought, we find something completely different. The idea there was anarchism could work, but it wouldn't be a very good idea, so it's just the reverse of what we have today. Now if we take a couple of little strains that we look in book 2 of Plato's Republic, the situation is imagined in which we have a small society of people who are each living and producing things, and they're exchanging things with each other, exchanging goods and services with each other, and seems like we might think this is a very good society, but Plato calls this a society, the city of pigs. He said this is really, if this happened, people might get too greedy, they might just start accumulating wealth, and that wouldn't be a good idea, so you'd have the notion of people peacefully trading and producing among themselves. According to Plato, it wasn't a good idea. We need to have a special guardian class to rein people in and make sure they don't get out of control, so Plato is saying, well, maybe we could have a society without a state, but this is the city of pigs, and similarly in Aristotle, Plato and Aristotle don't often don't always agree, but they agree on this point. In book 1 of Aristotle's politics, Aristotle describes how the state arises. He said, well, we can start off with families, and then we imagine families uniting into a community where, again, they're producing exchanging goods and services among themselves, but Aristotle goes a bit differently from Plato. Plato remembers saying, well, we need the guardian class to make sure that people don't get out of hand. Now, what Aristotle says is we need to have a state because the highest life is not one of producing, it's one where people are engaged in public deliberation. People are deliberating about the public order, and you need to have a state to have that, so according to Aristotle, we need to have a state because this is part of the best life. Now, the best life absolutely is the life of the philosophy, but that's available only to a few, so for most people, the best life is being involved in the state. Now, in antiquity, there are intimations of people who reject to the notion of the state. For example, the third century Stoic philosopher Zeno of Chidium wrote a book called The Republic. It's usually referred to as Zeno's Republic, which favored anarchism, but the unfortunate thing about that book is it really didn't survive past antiquity, so we don't really know much what was in it, but in general, the picture in the ancient world then was of anarchism. The ancient political thought was that anarchism might very well work, but it wouldn't be a very good idea. Now, I now want to jump, we're skipping over all the Middle Ages, the Renaissance. I want to jump now to thinker that many of you will be familiar with who challenged a fundamental assumption we find in Plato and Aristotle, and the thinker I have in mind is the great French economist, Frédéric Bastiat, in his short book, The Law, which came out, I think was published in June 1850, Bastiat died that same year. Now, what Bastiat challenged was the notion we find this, as I just explained in Plato and Aristotle, that we need to have a class of people, the guardians in Plato's case or the state in Aristotle, that is above the people and guiding the people. They're kind of the state is viewed as an educator, someone who has to mold the people into a certain pattern. The people are viewed as not capable of living by themselves, or at least not living a good life by themselves. And Bastiat asked, why should we assume this? Why should we think that there's this superior class? Why are they better than other people? Where do they get their supposed wisdom from? They seem to be just taking it for granted that they're better than everyone else and able to guide them. And he raised a point, he himself didn't take this fully in an anarchist direction, but the argument clearly has anarchist implications. And the point he raised was, if we start by saying that people have certain rights, say people have rights to life, liberty and property, the only way an organization such as the state could acquire rights is if people agree to give it certain powers. So people would have to get together and agree that the state would have certain powers to do things. And the state, if people did that, couldn't acquire additional rights other than individuals' rights the individuals had. So the state wouldn't be some kind of superior entity that would be able to violate people's rights, take away their lives, liberty and property. But the state couldn't acquire any rights that individuals didn't have. So if you take this argument to its full implications, really the state wouldn't have any right to do anything at all that would violate anyone's rights. So if you hold that the state, if an individual say, wouldn't have the right to have a monopoly of the protective services over a certain territory, the state couldn't acquire that right either. So it wouldn't be able to exist. Now, I think Basiat's argument really destroys the intellectual basis of a state. But I want to now to shift to two other thinkers. If a state really doesn't have an intellectual basis, we have the question of why do we have states? Why is it that states exist? And here I want to mention two very important writers. I'm going to take them together because one was a disciple of the other. I have in mind first Franz Oppenheimer, who was a German sociologist who was born in 1864 and he lasted till the 1940s. He in fact, he lived in his later years in the United States and he was in exile from Hitler's Germany. And in fact, he died in Los Angeles. So it's fairly close by here. And so the other person was his disciple, Albert J. Nock, who was an American writer and literary figure. Now, Oppenheimer wrote a book called The State, which came out in German in 1908. And it was translated into English and Nock was very much influenced by this book. And he wrote a work that was along the same lines as Oppenheimer's book called Our Enemy, The State, which came out in 1935. So what the argument that Oppenheimer and Nock gave was that they distinguish two different ways people can acquire wealth. How can you get various goods that you want? One is to engage in peaceful production and trade. They call this the economic means and the other is to seize them by from others to just grab what other people produce. And they call this the political means. So according to Oppenheimer and Nock, they define the state as the organization of the political means. So in their view, the state was not as Plato and Aristotle thought, some kind of educational organization was designed to help people improve their characters. On the contrary, it was a predatory group, gang of robbers who was trying to seize what people have produced. Now, one might say, well, this is a very interesting theory, but how do we know it's true? And this was what happened in order to demonstrate their theory. Of course, in history, where is not a a priori discipline, we can't deduce that certain events or institutions have to exist. But what they did was they gave historical examples. They tried to show that states that actually originated in this way. What Oppenheimer spent a great had studied great deal at the anthropological literature, and he tried to show that every state that he could find that originated in this way as a predatory group that had seized what other people had taken. And he goes into great detail going through the ancient world medieval world, down through the 19th century, trying to show that states are predatory bodies and knock. Following in the lead of Oppenheimer, applied this view to especially in our enemy, they say to American history, and he tried to show how the state had in American state had been a predatory group. Also interesting, their knock was very sympathetic to the view we usually associate with the progressives. Charles Beard, remember he had a famous book, an economic interpretation of the Constitution of the United States 1930, arguing that the Constitution was really written to help a certain group of wealthy people. They would be economically better off and knock said that that view is correct that he's the Constitution was written that way. So he's arguing that the American state has always been a predatory organization. So knock and Oppenheimer knock in my view have given a very good historical case for this. Their theory of the state is a predatory organization. Now, just to make clear the logical structure of the argument, this came up in one of my online classes that I'm fortunate enough to give for the measles. Students said, well, look, aren't there examples of stateless societies in the past as if this was a refutation of Oppenheimer. But remember what Oppenheimer is saying is every state is a predatory organization. To refute him, you would have to come up with a state that wasn't a predatory organization. It wouldn't be, and it wouldn't refute him to show that you could have a society without the state. That would be perfectly happy with that. So again, what he's what knock and Oppenheimer saying is that every state is predatory organizations. I think their views are very helpful to us in combating what Nietzsche so aptly calls that coldest of all cold monsters, the state. Thank you.


Darcy would you be able to do it today? Great. Thank you So then the next order of business is approving minutes from the last meeting any comments In general, they might be a little long. I think whoever does it next if they can use their editing skills better To keep it short or I think that would be appropriate I think I have a correction I think we have Ross buildings see draft plan under the sector Section on reviewing the sector plans and Evan wasn't here and I we didn't have a plan. So we didn't really have anything to review. Oh Yeah, I see And yeah, okay, so it sounds like we just need to Cross that out, right? Yep. Okay. I'll edit it up. Anything else or should we have a motion to accept? I Move to accept the minute approve Yes, so sorry. I have a process thing which I was educated about by the tongue-corks office. So when we do have someone Participating remotely all of our votes have to be done by a roll call because you can't physically see him raise his hand or not So So everything has to be done by roll call vote when you get to the final Okay, all in favor. So let's Vote, I guess Okay, so I'll so I'll start Dumont I'm staying Selman Yes Draker. Yes Rose. Yes Ross abstain and Right whom are You have to give us. Yeah So we have two abstentions out of a vote of five Right So we still have out of six. Sorry. So we're good Alrighty, great So now we won't invite any public comment Thank you for coming Okay, so update from sustainability coordiners. I have very little to update on today. So just that we Had an event in front of town hall. I Honestly can't remember. It was just this past Monday or last week That's just where my head is so in any case, but we did have press coverage It was because the town of Amherst is included in a report by environment Massachusetts About communities that are working towards a hundred percent renewable energy So we were featured along with Holyoke in North Hampton, but they are doing these events across the state. So There's other Eastern communities that are being featured as well But there is a report that's being released if it's not released already So once I can go to their site and get it and I'll forward it to you all But that was kind of exciting. Great Congratulations The two of our council our committee members here were very much Kind of a point persons for that happening in town. So You can thank Darcy and Andra especially Okay. Um, so if there's no other updates Then we can move on to setting the retreat agenda So Andra you provided a handout Here I also sent Stephanie something that we could use to Take notes on if we wanted to To do that. I think there is two in my mind. There's two outstanding questions. One is Facilitator And the other is whether we want to focus the entire retreat on process or Whether we want to try to spend an hour or an hour and a half on process and an hour or an hour and a half on Sort of setting our follow-up work plan agenda This is four hours, right? Yeah so Yes, but with breaks and other things Put in thrown in But if we spent two hours on each piece or three hours on one and one hour on the other or something So maybe first we can talk about facilitators because we did get a few emails of ideas, but I must say that I Wasn't sure if there was any sort of final people for consideration So Darcy actually Sent me the only person who confirmed that they could do it everybody else sent potential People who could do it, but then who said they couldn't so Maybe Darcy you want to give an update on who it was that you Had a conversation with yeah, I I talked to a couple of different people. Oh one Rusper and and Jones was available and Willing to do it pro bono He's done facilitation many times before he's a former Principal at Fort River School for 17 years or so and Since retiring he's been very involved in Issues around climate justice and The Connection of climate and race but That aside, he's just you know, I've seen him facilitate a couple of times and he's very good So that's all I have to say about that He's the only person that we got An affirmative response from and if he's willing to do it. He's the only other person Other than myself. Those are your two options and if he's willing to do it. I think he'd be great Yeah, are there any Questions or concerns about Russ facilitating our meeting? Did we hear back from Pat Romney? I haven't heard back from anybody else Does anyone else know Russ? I've met with Russ before and Attended a meeting with Russ. I think he would be do a good job. I think I may would see if if Potentially we could all send him maybe a little right You know, it's I don't think we'll have time to meet with him in the next week But I would maybe say if everybody wants to send him a short paragraph of like what they hope to get out of their retreat in advance That may help Him with his facilitation and that way it's everybody's had an opportunity to give input prior to the meeting But I would think maybe you should I think if you comes sort of more to an agreement today of what you want rather than your Individual goals because it seems like that's it what you're working on as part of your agenda tonight That maybe that might be easier than each person sort of saying what they hope to get out That's just so you have a collective vision of what it should be about me I'm just thinking if people are sort of in their own sort of sending something off. It might be easier to Come together. Yeah, I guess I was thinking more individually or maybe you know That could be a bad idea, but I was just thinking if people want to introduce themselves to Russ before the meeting So he has a sense of who's in the room. Yeah, not less about the retreat itself But maybe what you yeah, that totally makes sense I was just thinking that for you know, maybe tonight the conversation could be about what you all want to Each get out of it. But yeah an introduction from everybody would be great. Okay. I don't see any issue with I'm asking Russ to confirm he can do the facilitation Is this something we need to vote on or? He's the only one who offered so yeah, I'm quite frankly I don't know you could have a vote, but okay, Russ if you end up watching this video. We are very excited It's not because you're the only one Okay, perfect. Okay, so let's talk maybe about the agenda um Yes, Darcy, sorry. I Think that it would make sense for a couple of us who have whomever Are interested in helping? with Get him organized Maybe meet with him, but I mean we may want to do something more around the retreat agenda, too, so However, that evolves. I just think that it would make sense for someone to meet with him before next Wednesday So that he's clear on what we want him to do and we may decide You know when we after we've talked about the retreat agenda, we'll have more of an idea of what We would want to convey to him and on on that issue. I'm just wondering if if Depending on what we decide on the second question I Don't know it feels a little bit like we should be talking about our retreat agenda after we talk about Some of these other topics on our agenda today Like But if we are not going to talk about anything substantive at the retreat which would be my preference Then we wouldn't have to do that anyway So maybe we could just answer that question now So I don't I don't maybe everyone else knows the answer to this Because I was missing last week. It is every member of our committee going to be at the retreat Ashwin is going to be the only one who won't physically be present and he's participating remotely or we're trying to make it so that he Can participate remotely So in that case as we're looking at setting the three or four hours is a long time, but it can also go by fairly quickly One of my concerns has been that there's been sort of a core group of people who have been here every week That have been having these substantive conversations and we've been making we've been having these conversations without the full committee present So I might actually disagree a little bit with Darcy And hope that we could have some substantive conversations about what we're doing beyond just process Because it will be the first time since our first meeting that our entire committee is present and I've been actually very uncomfortable with sort of How much we've been proceeding in the summer with with this like smaller committees The other thing is I do think it makes sense for someone to meet with Russ before the retreat the logical person would be our chair I don't know if she has time to do that She also has a job and a family but But that I agree with Darcy on that it makes sense for someone to sit down with Russ and go through this Ideally the chair I I would volunteer if it's not too many people I would join you if I think it also makes sense for Laura to be there But I'd I'd join you if it works out. I love love a good retreat and setting an agenda and I I'd be quite glad to take that time if it works out Great, and if we do focus on the structure like volunteer to be there to to Represent what I was thinking in the document I created Does that create start to create issue if we I'd have to post it Okay Because so I will have to post it, but as long as we have 48 hours in advance, but you know So ideally if we could have a meeting for like next Monday or Tuesday That would yeah, yeah I mean, I think I would as someone that has done a lot of facilitation myself as well. I would sort of I Feel less I Would I want to avoid us doing is doing a pre-retreat and then a retreat and I don't I think we want him to Bring his skills as someone who's Facilitated and clearly led a lot of meetings and things in his role as a principal to bring some of that expertise to our group so I think I Would like For him to ask us questions I don't want us to ask him question or I think I want to make sure that we're not trying to Predetermine what the retreat should how it should run other than what we want to talk about on our agenda and hopefully let him have some space to to be the facilitator that we are hoping that he can be so My my suggestion was going to be that you and I meet with him Me for logistics purposes and you know supporting materials if you need it But that's what the purpose of this meeting was going to be and then we wouldn't have to post it But the posting is not a big deal as long as we have time, but that's just a I'm just throwing that out there Okay Maybe let's just hold this for a minute and talk about the agenda And then we can see at the end of that how we want to approach the rest meeting if we just want Stephanie to talk logistics with Russ and that's it and or but I don't want like I'm Sensing that there's a feeling that if one person meets with him then that one person's agenda is gonna be What he thinks the purpose of the retreat is yeah No, I was saying you and me no But I actually think that if it's you and me that's the feeling that is gonna right be Assumed I give I meet it all with him by my side You know me like I feel like if any individual meets with him That could be the situation that we want to avoid You're the chair of this committee you speak on behalf of this Committee when this committee needs to be spoken for it. I wouldn't feel that way. You're a delected chair I don't really care whether it's just you and and Stephanie or multiple people There's always complications with having to post the meeting. You can't like meet in Russ's house or something if there's more than one of you but It seems like it should be a fairly simple meeting I would like to have Other committee members have more input. I'd like to see Jesse be a part of it And what do we want to tell Russ? I think we need to have some discussion. That's on the agenda first So then my original point of let's wait and think okay, so let's do that Okay, so let's talk about the agenda then Andrew do you want to go through your write-up? It seems like the big question is Do we do just process? Or do we do process and content and I would argue for just process because we have had meetings and Everyone has had an opportunity to come or participate remotely and there have been some Members who haven't been able to very much and that's a shame, but we have work to do and I think the decision-making should be done at our meetings and we should reserve a retreat for our Conversations that we wanted to have at the very beginning and still haven't had So my sense is that maybe I'm being optimistic but I don't think that we would need four hours to go through these items on the agenda and I in also concerned about wanting to do To get work done and I I guess I would love to come out of the meeting with a positive feeling about what our plan is for the next season And so I would I think we would be a missed opportunity to not at least spend some amount of time Doing doing that planning for the work we want to get done in the in the fall I guess I would Agree with Andra that The purpose I think the original request and purpose for this retreat was to really Do that which we haven't had a chance to do since we started which is really talk through some structural issues and pace and How you know issues around whether we should have work groups or Whether we should you know how we shouldn't have whether we should have liaisons All of what Andra has listed here and she put times next to issues, so I Guess I would say Put a priority on on Trying to get through those things and also on trying to In each topic area is sort of like see if we can Come to a sense of the group on each issue so that We will have You know we will have accomplished whatever in that subject area by the end of the retreat We will be able to say okay. We covered these four or five areas and This was the sense of the group and so we can go forward and we can get into the meat of the substantive issues in our regular meetings or We decide to have work groups or whatever But yeah, I would I'd agree with Andra Ashwin, I emailed you the document. I don't know if you've seen it. I emailed you the document that Yes, I received that email and I've been following along. Thank you I have a just a practical question and maybe Evan or Tarcy or Stephanie you might know In a retreat setting in this context Would we be able to break into small groups for example or Would that not work? I don't really know the answer to that because it is technically it is a public meeting so I think For the purpose of a public meeting maybe because it's a retreat if you came back to discuss What you each discussed in your because I I mean in my mind When I was thinking about how this would go in my mind I was seeing you all break out in some discussion Groups and then come back and share and I think as long as you're sharing what you discussed That's okay. You're saying no If we broke into separate groups I Would I would imagine that as long as Any member of the public could visit one of the like if someone stayed here and someone into the conference room there And we left the doors open right you're gonna all probably be you're gonna be in the same right I don't see an issue with that I think it would only be an issue if we like Jesse and Laura and Andra and I were gonna go in there and close Right right you'd be in the room and you'd probably break off into separate groups, but you wouldn't leave I would I and then on a separate note I would just agree that I Do think that the process is the priority. That's my sense of of this retreat. If and so Moving into more substantive work Well, I agree that I I'm Feeling urge. I wouldn't I would be nervous about doing that if it if it was at the expense of What I believe is the priority and do the do two things partially is I Think less Effective than to do one well So if that makes sense Maybe just to add that One second I think it may be possible to do both, but I But we'd have I think we would have I would vote to prioritize the first comments I would be a little suspicious of trying to do both of those things well in this retreat and I think given that I'm understanding that we are Extending the time on a lot of our activities to fulfill our mandate. I think that getting a Really strong structure for how we work potentially including subcommittees that can carry forward different substantive aspects of the work Would be a great way to put it in a good position And I would feel really good if we were able to accomplish that so so one idea could be that we don't make time for Advancing work, but we do provide I guess there's I think Evan's point was well made that Yes, while everyone could have attended the meetings we need to recognize that this was summertime and We've all prepared some documents and other things I think if we had a chance as we're all together to sort of almost summarize or recap where we are in the process That could potentially be an agenda item to add if we don't get to it We don't get to it, but you know, I think it would be a helpful Way to take the process what I guess I'm think I'm missing from this is like How do we take all of this process discussion and turn it into what's gonna make our next meeting? awesome Because we've had five meetings. I don't think they've been awful But I so I'm like missing where we're sort of going and how this is gonna improve that And so I'd like to at least have that discussion sort of moving forward You know very specifically And potentially that goes along with sort of a recap of where we've been and then we're ready really ready In the next meeting to go and move it forward What if folks think about that? I think it does fit because it can be a review of our process so far And it does make sense since I do think that we all want to have you know a Active participation as much as possible from all the committee members to make sure we're all You know caught up I've been out of the loop for a while they haven't been in the last several meetings and I'm just wondering kind of where we feel like the gap is do we feel like there hasn't been enough space and time and sort of resource for people to pursue Substantive work like I looked at some of the sector specific documents But I wonder if people felt sort of adequately supported by the rest of the committee and putting those together because if that's the kind of gap that we're Running into or that's the kind of limitation that we're running into Then maybe we are ready to go ahead and have substantive meeting around perhaps those sector specific documents or about certain aspects of Almost a draft proposal for next steps or recommendations of the council I don't know or if we don't even think we're at that point yet people that were doing the sector specific works out Like they really want to go back to the drawing board a little bit and think about You know the more existential questions about this committee in the first place Then maybe that former approach would be more procedural would make sense. So I'm just not because I've been gone. I don't really know Which side of that works sort of tilting towards so I wonder if anyone might try to help me understand that or clarify that And keep in mind that it's hard for me to hear if you're addressing me Please like speak into the phone if you can So I don't know if we have a consensus on that I Guess it would be my answer. I guess I would just say that your question goes more to our process discussion because I think a lot of what what I'm feeling right now is that we're a little bit stymied by the the committee structure and and Right so far. We don't we haven't really hit our flow We haven't quite figured out how we're going to get our work done How how we want to structure things how fast? we agree we would like to move and That's a piece of it.  Are we going to work in small groups? Are we going to? Have subcommittees are we going to have associate members all these different issues? We need to kind of figure out in order to get the work done So yeah, I'm feeling like that's a big part of why we need to have this retreat so I mean I feel like just structure really does follow function in the head of the committee and That's why I might be I guess I'm struggling to envision that what a procedural discussion that is devoid of substance of content But what's like because we wouldn't just decide to work in small groups without the purposes of those groups being well-defined So I don't know I just I imagine that what we're calling a procedural discussion will inevitably end up being hopefully Productively substantive to some extent. That's how I just be it shaking out in practice I don't see a substance what procedural discussion happening Yeah, Ashwin, I think that's an important point because I think that's where the discussion these discussions have stymied in the meetings and So I think we need to be open to that being Part of the retreat discussion as well. I think I guess my concern that I have with Focusing only on The I guess I would like us to take the lessons that we've learned over the last five weeks and actually really are five meetings I'm I'm actually making that number up if it's five meetings, but I'm assuming it is like What hasn't specifically worked well and what can we do to fix that or make it better? I what I don't want to do is just speak in a Way that we haven't had these meetings. I think we have had meetings So we should use that experience to figure out what would make that be more productive in the future In the background for the whole retreat in a way Will you ask when will you state what you see as that guiding question? what have been some of the structural procedural and Those types of issues that have made it harder for us to work and make the best time out of our meetings and how can we reform and create alternative structures such as small groups such as site-length substantive working groups Divide up tasks at the individual level, etc. And also perhaps make them kind of community agreements about how to Navigate meetings themselves to make all this work much better And so I like what I've been said about structure following function. I think that's why I'm having trouble with it with spending four hours just on sort of hypothetical procedure We have a task in front of us, right Which is to return to the council Some goals whenever we determine we're going to get them to them And I think figuring out to me and maybe this is processed I'm viewing it a substantive but to me figuring out what we want to get to the council over what timeline is Probably the most important thing because then once we have that down we can say so what do we need to do to make to do that, right? What do we need structurally? What do we need? procedurally you know, I'm Already a little hesitant about spending four hours on sort of these some of these process questions And no time on what's a fairly substantial task in front of us I Think that one of the reasons there's the mention that we've been stymied and I think that I don't know that I would agree with that Completely, I think we're just getting our footing as a brand new committee and a group of people who have never worked together before I don't necessarily know that we've been stymied But I think one one of the issues has been trying to make some decisions about what we're doing without a full committee And this is an opportunity to do that so looking through this I think that there's a lot of stuff on here That's really important. I think some of it honestly could is Could probably be condensed to make way for a discussion of what are we doing going forward? What's our timeline and that will help inform a lot of these other? questions on this list because hypothetical, you know We keep talking about subcommittee at our committee task forces work groups wherever we want to call them We talked about them almost every meeting at this point And I agree we're not going to form them unless we have a reason to and we're only gonna have a reason to if we have a real Discussion about what we're trying to give to the council over what time period But I to just spend four hours on just sort of like agenda setting and all that kind of stuff Which shouldn't take that long? Especially because I don't know other people have complaints about how the agenda's been set But I think that it's been done fine To me I'd rather see us spend some of that time saying what are we doing? How are we gonna do it? What's our timeline? What are we looking to return to the council and what do we need in place for us structurally to get there? And what are we expecting our process is going to be? And I you know, I think that some of this could probably just be condensed to get us there can I I Not to complicate things. I feel a little bit of a broken record, but I think this is an important piece is that one of your objectives is To create a climate action plan resiliency plan adaptation plan so in my mind With that is a big goal because that really is going to encompass a lot of the work that you're doing and It seems to me that if We have an opportunity that's going to be presenting itself for some funding to do just that it seems like You're identified you've already started to look at specific sectors if you were going to create a plan What would you want to see? How would you want it broken up? Do you want it broken up by these specific sectors? So what would that look like? I guess I'm trying to like in my mind You'd be sort of maybe working to create the skeleton Outline of what you would want a climate action plan to include and that would be one of those things that like it would Can it would include a hundred percent renewable energy and CCA plus can fit into that it would include? Zero energy buildings and that would be part of it. It would include transportation and improved infrastructure for Alternative vehicles would be part of that and it would it also include things like food security and how we're going to address that like there Would be Sectors identified which to me lends itself to then having these subcommittees created So that's sort of like the structure to me creating that that framework for a plan Creates the sort of structure of your work going forward But because it includes all these other all these sectors are sub sectors as part of your plan But that's just how in my mind. I see it. I don't know that's again, I don't know if that's complicating things or Make sense, but you know you would you know ideally you'd be working with a consultant if we get funding There's going to be a consultant hired to work with this committee and working on creating this plan So there will be more opportunities to have meetings where these things are discussed more in detail with you as a group And it's not like the consultant's going to write the plan the consultant is only going to write a plan Guided about what you want to see happen and it's going to be working with this committee So I feel like where you've got a really good start on that from the work that Laura did and brought the sector Plans idea to us. So I don't think we're very far from being able to create an outline like you're talking about I Have a feeling that Evan's talking about something else I Mean just to jump in there. I actually think that we are You know, I read your piece for the next part and I felt like we're kind of getting really close to some I think we're close to in being on agreement at least in the very big level So I would almost suggest we spend the first after doing an icebreaker and getting to know each other We spend the first 30 minutes or so just Seeing if we kind of agree with like we've talked about looking at the science You know using the benchmarks of 2030 to 2050 and carbon neutrality We've talked about the sectors. We want to look at we know we want to have sector specific Goals and programs, but we want to engage with stakeholders before we set those specific things You know, I think that we've actually I think if we actually spend a little bit of time at the beginning sort of Thinking about all the positive things. We've already done We may actually it may actually serve us better when we start talking about the process piece to figure out Where we need to go from there and how this process how the process will help us achieve that What are people's thoughts on that? One thought I have Laura is that We're you know, we still have Time in this meeting to do some of that work. We still have sector plan that well, I don't know I guess we aren't going to discuss ones that are by people who aren't here but the Stakeholder outreach Document has some of those ideas you just said so maybe We'll get Somewhere satisfying at the end of this meeting Yeah, but I'm actually like then I'm really confused because why didn't we just spend the first two meetings just doing this So that we could have done this like I don't know why we're holding this to a retreat And then I think the answer is is because we've tried to answer several of these questions several times and almost every meeting and We make don't get anywhere. So I feel like if we don't I Just don't I'm getting rich very nervous that this retreat is just going to be us sitting here Talking about these things that we haven't been able to make progress on because it's a chicken and an egg situation I guess I'd say we haven't been able to really delve in in our meetings because Regendals are full We have made progress on content But have not Made progress on these issues in there.  Group work so there's no agreement to do sort of intro to this Retreat to do kind of a summary of what we've done so far I Actually, I'm not sure that that is antithetical to what Andrew's talking about I think I think it dovetails nicely. I also think it's a great way to get the people that haven't been able to be Bring us all to the same page. I think it serves a lot of really good functions. I think the good idea That's what I meant when I said yeah, that fits I said we were gonna do that today Okay, sorry. I misunderstood I think we can Will make some progress today. I hope if we have time to get to the more substantive issues I guess what I'm saying is maybe The shape of the retreat will depend on the outcome of today and we should proceed and come back to it perhaps with Some people who are gonna think about it with the facilitator So I Disagree with that. I think we need to finish this conversation so Because we're we've got a I think we have to agree on the retreat agenda today for the most part at least the structure of it I have to post the agenda 48 hours before the meeting and you're and you can't sort of deliberate via email So you kind of have to come up with an agenda So I guess what I'm so just to recap what I'm sort of Hearing from the discussion is We should do an introduction It sounds like there's an agreement that we could spend the first And this would actually be good for rest too if we spent the first Beginning of the meeting just recapping what we've done sort of padding I think there's a lot to be proud of in this group. Honestly, I think we've done a lot of good work So let's Get that out there and then we can spend The majority of the meeting on the process questions And then I think the only addition I would add though is that if we get and if we get them done quick great But I think we have to think as we're going through the process questions make sure we're thinking through How is this gonna make our meetings better and what you know? How are we gonna what problem is this fixing or solving for us moving forward? And if it's not fixing or solving a problem, then I don't think we should spend a lot of time debating it And then I think they're Hopefully if there's time at the end We can I think there has to be time at the end to take this into being real next steps as we move forward on our meetings Because the whole point is that we're making our meetings more productive moving forward and correct and so and then if we have time I think we should to Evan's point really start Getting into the getting into things. I Think this is just in to confirm what's already being said, but That and maybe to assuage Evan's fear of of a ill spent four hours But I think any process work that we're doing is in the any process deliberations We have that's all in the context of the work. We're doing it's all seated deeply in In this specific work. It's not I don't imagine sort of I think use the word hypothetical procedures I don't imagine talking about the pros and cons of different procedures in a vacuum. I think it's very much Linked I think it is unavoidably. We will be Getting into the meat of this work in a way that will eliminate what I would describe as the awkwardness of This format I think I think to me one goal I would love to see at the end of this retreat is that we are Skilling ourselves and getting to know each other the point where we are better than what is admittedly a slow and awkward format and for many good reasons, but This is it's harder to get things done in this setting than other settings, right? just from a from a Procedural point of view is that not? Can you elaborate on that for example? I can't even see all the people. I'm talking to I think quite simply It is a structure that is challenging. It's a good structure and it It is open to the public and it is either so many positives about it But there's also things that make it difficult for us to We're doing a task that's never been done before well ever Right my comment about that would be that you you know when you were downstairs You could see one another you were around a table and there was a more direct kind of communication between you So this is a much more formal setting so you could agree to meet in a different space It just has to be Publicly noticed the the benefit of being in this room is that we can record it and we can project But we could do that downstairs in the first floor meeting room as well the recording piece I don't think that's set up for that, but I could at least take audio recordings that can be posted But I think there is a desire by people to have it in this room Because of the media access so I you know why you would all would have to decide that And that's the kind I mean that's the kind of thing I imagine to me I this I think this hampers the flow of communication, right? And in one way in one way it increases it as in its pub makes it easier But in the other way it hampers the flow of communication So I think that's something we could for example discuss at the retreat and make better Yeah, I agree with that I just want to figure out what we were just talking about as far as Starting off with a review of what we've already done because that I Would hope wouldn't take very much time because The people that we're talking to are on our committee and hopefully they've been reading our minutes that are So I Mean I think I just I'm not sure what I understand it stand the people are saying that's okay to do but I do not see the purpose of that in a retreat and So I hope that it can be a very short time Well, I think I guess I would actually Hope that we can work with rest to make it interactive and useful in a way Like I would almost like to see us put up like Where you know Sort of some of the things we've discussed like have each of us sort of Just give a pulse. How comfortable are you feeling with this part of the conversation? How like, you know, I think That's the way we could do it that also helps to build Awareness of ourselves and where we are feeling and how comfortable we're feeling with with what we've been discussing because I Agree with Jesse. It's a little hard to know in this forum like how people are feeling about stuff And What our goal like if our goals, I guess the goals I've heard for the retreat are getting to know each other I think everyone would agree. That's an important goal making ourselves a productive committee moving forward and Making making ourselves a productive group to solve to address climate change in our community is There a goal that I'm missing I Guess I kind of feel like the the general topics that are in Andrews Agenda Our goals in themselves in other words Should we establish principles do we want to work on parallel tracks and These are things that we need to figure out we need to get a consensus as a group as to whether we want to do this and This and it feels like this is the place where we could do that So yeah, I don't think anybody's arguing that we wouldn't do that So that's I think everyone has I think even if there may not be I think that that's what we're gonna do So I don't think we have to worry about that piece. I think it's the question of how are we framing it and can we include You know Something in the beginning to bring us all up to speed and make us kind of feel like we Can apply these discussions to moving us from where we are to where we want to be Definitely. Yeah So I just I was just a little worried when you said and then we'll Use the majority of the meeting To work out the process issues So I wouldn't want this review part to be two hours that would be Okay, I'm not helpful. I don't think that will be the case So can we set a limit to how much time we're going to devote to? Reviewing what we've already done So we're so we're running on an hour talking about our trying to set an agenda for the retreat Which is important, but I worry now that we're gonna spend an entire two-hour meeting Planning a four-hour meeting The goal here is to have it is to leave today with an agenda, right? And so I think we actually need to start putting words on paper. Andre got us started What I'll say and perhaps I'm in the minority here to me We're gonna have our entire committee here at a really critical time when we're deciding whether or not We're gonna ask the council for an extension and what we're asking them to me This is a really great opportunity for us to plan What we're doing and I think process is an important part of that But the process makes sense in the context of that planning and what I would like to see is I would like to leave that meeting saying, okay Here is our timeline for what we're doing. Here's our plan. Here's how we're going to accomplish it And here's how we're gonna make sure it's done effectively and efficiently and and that's why you know I think that to me the process is really important But I think it has to be contextualized with what our plan is what our timeline is and what we're looking to deliver and I think That has to come first. What do we actually want to accomplish? What are we looking to do? over the next several months and Then okay now we know that how can we best make that effective in the context of what we've done so far And so I think Laura's point or how I've interpreted it is not let's review what we've done in in like Let's tell the story of what we've done so far But let's look back at what we've done over the past several meetings and say, okay We've been sort of working forward. What have we accomplished? What worked what didn't right? Because what I'd like to see us spend some time on is is how do we work? Effectively and I like Jesse's point of like being able to look at each other is really useful This room isn't super conducive to that. I personally like Meeting in the first floor meeting room. It leaves is the media access. There's a constant There's a there's trade-offs there, right? I think those are important conversations Some of these I don't think we're at a point where we need to talk about just yet some of them I think we do some of them I hope would be really brief conversations and so what I'd like to see us do is Just put an agenda Down but to me to discuss a lot of these things absent any any discussion of Planning for what we're going to do given the task in front of us Would would be not the most productive use of four hours because I would I'd like to see the questions be With all respect to Andra is actually a little bit more open-ended than these like I Would love to have a conversation some of us have served on committees Some of us haven't some of us have served in businesses some of us have served on organizations So what have you found to be effective and how can we replicate that in the context of? Open meeting law and the constraints put on us that to me is a more useful question Then some of these answers that are really yes or no questions and those are the questions I'd like to go into because some of these we've discussed right meeting every week. We've discussed almost every week We've decided not to do it What I'd rather say is what what do we how do we work effectively? What experience have you had within this committee or others and how can we use those to figure out? How can we work efficiently with a task in front of us because many of us? You know Laura just worked on this climate action plan for Amherst College. She has a lot of experience to bring to the table Going after a huge project with multiple people over a timeline But we've never actually heard her talk about well What worked in that and what didn't and that's what I'd actually like to use the retreat for as opposed to just you know Should we have a work group? So One of the things that I Wish we had was a planning group to think forward the way that we're Trying to talk about now during our meeting when we should be talking about content and making decisions we're talking about the agenda and really I Should not have created this. I should have been working with a small group that Could hash out some of these issues and bring something that we could come to consensus on more quickly That's the kind of thing that's what I'm feeling is missing and feeling isolated and like the only way to have input is to sort of put all my thoughts on paper and Then people have to discuss it in in this group having not you know had it digested at all so That's why it's so important to me to talk about these procedural issues and decide and maybe we'll come to a decision very quickly but actually I think that you just Completely agreed with Evan like that's the kind of stuff that we should we shouldn't spend the retreat going through these bullet points We should spend the retreat. What do we wish we had? What would make us meet our goals of? Working cohesively together making ourselves a productive committee and making ourselves a productive group to address climate change in our community and so I think what we should do is Go to Russ with that that idea in mind. That's what we those are the goals We want to achieve these are the things that we've written down that we think are probably things We need to talk about but let's have that kind of open discussion first and let's figure out What are we at what actual decisions do we need to make process wise to do that and then? How do we move ourselves forward? What's our timeline? What's our next steps and if we don't get to all of that at the retreat the next steps in timeline I think that that's a part that we can have at our next meeting as A very clear follow-up because we do have three weeks of meetings in a row at this point so I Think that we could be potentially done with this conversation if there's some agreement there that those are our goals We want to spend a majority of the time making sure we work effectively together moving forward to meet our goals Does anyone disagree with that idea? I agree I just want to share this document with the rest so he has an idea and you know, this could be what I send him I don't know, you know, yeah, I think we share this. I think we share a general agenda I think You should probably share all your sector doc I mean in my thought the things that you each individually produced There was there was even the discussion about the 90-day goal, so Anything that you've produced I have all of that I can forward it to him, you know, so he has your Documents, why is that funny? I don't know what it's a lot of paper But it's well. No, I mean I'd forward to him electronically But I mean it would be a sense of knowing what you all have done so far and produced individually and as a group So it identifies things you're thinking about and working on and I think it would help him He may not read it in depth, but it's not I don't think it's quite as much as Okay, so I feel like we can move on from this discussion But I do think we needed to have it and I think it does highlight the need for hopefully we will be able to work Well, he cohesively together after the retreat and we won't have to spend as much time on this But I think that it was an important discussion to have I Sorry, so We need an agenda and something that can be public so I have an agenda Yeah We're interesting you to take everything that's been said here and put together an agenda to be posted for our meeting to bring to Russ is that what's happening? So what I would like to do is take Andra's list and Put it down as these are questions We these are thoughts and there's some things that got mentioned here Do we want a planning group? Do we want to change rooms? I think we could add those to here is these are just like our brain dump of very specific questions We have but I think the overall agenda is Introduction icebreakers to get to know each other better Some type of way of summarizing our work to date whether we make that interactive or not But it would be a short piece and then How to based on all of that What are the? What do we what I liked your idea of thought thinking how do we work effectively how we worked effectively in the past in Different ways, what do we think is not working? Well right now in our group that we could fix And Then using that to identify some very clear sort of decisions Probably related to some of these things that we're going to do in the future to make that better Then I think that will be the meat of the agenda and then I think Depending on how much time we have left. I think we should spend time Talking about timeline and next steps Does that sound okay? I think sounds great and I Wrote down something that's almost identical just slightly different words But I think right and an agenda doesn't have to be that specific No, it doesn't and it could be for simple lines. Yes, they tell the story and then we it's open I think that's great So Laura if you could send it to me if I if you would permit me to sort of tweak the language a bit just to make it A sort of general topics because again, yes what Jesse said is right on we really don't want it to be too specific Yes, Darcy so where has Andres agenda gone in this whole process? This will be a Part so it will not be I guess I'm envisioning it as almost just Having this as a list of questions that we've that we have as background information or that we want to make sure You know, these are the things that we've come up with But we're not going to go through each of these points and say necessarily But maybe we will so it's part of the agenda things can come up in context Yeah so We already went through having an offer to have some people help with putting this together So Is there any reason why we can't do that? I just don't know that I mean my opinion from out here Is that I don't think you need that I think you've already come up with an agenda. You don't Why would you need to work further on the agenda? Just the idea, you know that some people should meet with Russ. I thought well that that's different That's different than the agenda discussion. That's the facilitation discussion So I think that we need to work as a group to set this agenda But you just did no, I I don't agree. I don't agree that we all work together to do that And I think that we still it would be nice because we started off the meeting With Andra and Jesse offering to meet on the agenda and with the facilitator that we have we schedule a meeting maybe with Laura and Stephanie to finalize the agenda and Also to meet with Ross, so I think what We are going to so I my suggestion is that we set up a meeting with Ross We make it an open meeting anybody on the committee can come And we're going to send him this agenda or we're going to tell him what our agenda is That we just discussed so I have to post it 48 hours in advance of the meeting So actually just realized if you met on Monday, I'd have to post it like tomorrow. Yeah So so if you mean on Tuesday, I have to post it on Friday because the weekend doesn't count so It has to be business days. So that's the limitation of doing that How few of us would need to be at that discussion You're gonna discuss business I mean Laura can meet as chair and we wouldn't have to post it as soon as More of you get involved if I'm there as staff if I were there with Laura and talking with him You don't have to post it but as soon as you get into any other of you meeting then it has to get posted So we just spent an hour and ten minutes hashing out the agenda We came up with an agenda that I think is vague enough to permit fairly flexible discussion But enough that we have an idea of what our goals are we have Andres left list of questions Laura has taken down some notes on other questions that have come up that are perhaps not on this list I would imagine that if other people over the next several days Think of questions that they were like, oh, you know how to actually like talk about that But I forgot they could send it to Laura and only Laura and she could add that To her list, right? I don't think that there needs to be another meeting on this My hope is that the meeting with Russ would literally just be Hey, here's what our committee wanted to get out of this. Here's the agenda and a little bit of talk about structure My personal preference would be just Laura and Stephanie and Russ because I don't think it it should be a substantive discussion I think it should just be a structural one I do Not want it to be an open meeting of this committee because it shouldn't be we just had a committee meeting To come up with the agenda and the questions and I don't want another one because I'm going to be honest with you I don't have a lot of time on Monday, and I don't want to feel like oh if I'm not there I'm missing some committee meeting where substantive stuff is going to come up I've attended the scheduled meeting we've had I've given my input I think that we need to trust the chair to go and meet with the facilitator And and bring up behalf of the committee And I think that simplifies it too because it allows her to meet with him at a coffee shop For for 40 minutes or half an hour or whatever And we don't have to worry about a whole bunch of posting a meeting and then questioning Well, then anyone can show up and we're gonna public comment It's it's a it's a procedural meeting that doesn't require a group I agree that we have talked about this too long, and that's why I want a small group To finish this conversation, but Andrew we don't have time that they retreats next Wednesday It's just a matter of setting up a meeting. It can be in the context of Meeting with Russ. It just needs to be Jesse and Stephanie and Laura and Then with the option to have some creative thinking that's what I'm really Wanting this committee to be able to do it's including People creatively, but that's why we are getting a facilitator, right? I mean so Can I just make a recommendation that maybe you take a vote?  Whether you feel the agenda that's been maybe read the agenda that you have again and say is this the agenda and Do a roll call vote? I think we have the agenda. I'm fine with the agenda. It's it's the Next step there. There's there's refining that will happen, and I just think it should involve some You know other voices on the committee I just think you and Darcy are saying two different things because Darcy said that she didn't feel the agenda was set We are talking about facilitation We're saying different things. I think neither neither issue is decided, and I agree that we should we should have a motion and I move that we have an open meeting with Russ that's posted for Monday to have whoever wants to come and discuss with Russ the Retreat agenda and facilitation Anyone second it? Second, I mean a clarifying question. What if Russ can't meet on Monday? Or whatever day But but what I think the only thing we can do with Russ is say this is what we want This is what we came up with in a group. We can't refine the agenda. We can't because we came up with this as a group together and So I just don't see why it needs to be Anything more than that. We have a motion on the table. Yeah, I was gonna say you do have a motion so Yeah, I have a question actually frander you said we there's I'm not We have an agenda we have a list of questions that we're hoping to answer We have a facilitator whose job it is to figure out how to make the meeting work and what and what structure works What details do you feel like still need to be? That's what I'm not clear on you said we're almost there But there's still some stuff that needs to be hashed out and I'm not clear on what those things are that require an actual meeting Sorry, I can't answer that. Let's just I don't have an answer that there's Unlimited numbers of things that a creative conversation could result in but I like what do you envision? Like if we're gonna put Stephanie through the process of posting a meeting and we're gonna have people feel like they have to show What is the delet look what's the outcome? We're hoping for beyond what we already have People could come up with a game to play a song to sing. I Don't know. It's just an opportunity for participation But we have a facilitator to great. That's the whole point of having a facilitator otherwise why I Just disagree with your definition of what the facilitator is supposed to do So yeah, so I I'm hearing basically with the last comment set which is that we have Despite there, I'm clearly hearing that there's some kind of kinks in this that need to be worked out and maybe some slight Disagreements, but I'm actually hearing pretty broad agreement about what this group needs and how would you do improve on and what we Have that sort of the main four points for the agenda and the facilitator's job is to come up with specific activities That will you know facilitate achieving those objectives in the meeting I think that what I'm hearing from I think it was Andra I can't always tell who's speaking, but I think what I'm hearing there is that there is Potentially an advantage in having a small group or some combination of committee members meet with the facilitator To hash out those activities out loud because that will provide an opportunity to give sort of a live feedback on it and ensure that Of these some folks on the committee are convinced that the facilitator understands pretty well our objectives And that the activities and the types of dynamics that the facilitator is selecting are Consistent with that at least sort of passing a big validity sort of test. I don't have a problem with that I personally I'm not going to be in town and I wouldn't join it, but I probably wouldn't Really feel the need to join it myself, but I do understand I think why some folks would want to have that opportunity and I would Support that by voting yes on this motion, even though I probably would not attend such a meeting Thanks, Ashton Do so I don't know what happens next you will you have a motion on the floor so Okay, the motion is to I think we so I I guess I am a little concerned that we're assuming Russ is gonna be available and if he's not How we do this but Maybe you could just say that because I Mean he could be available on Tuesday to Monday or Tuesday would work. I mean really potentially even Wednesday morning Which is tight, but Wednesday morning, so I think your motion would be To move that a Small group be available or be able to meet with Russ To discuss the agenda and facilitation of the retreat that would be my summary of what your motion was Yeah, I said an open meeting of anyone who wants to attend So I guess I would want to say that We could have an open meeting with Russ to discuss how We facilitate the agenda that we've agreed on in this meeting. I don't think it's an open discussion of the agenda I think that's a really important clarifying point It is I who has to Change the motion the motion is on the floor So, okay We have to be clear. I'm sorry. No. No. No, I was just gonna say we have to be clear about What the whether this is about the the meeting or The meeting to discuss the agenda and facilitation, which is what I think I said Yeah, when I was just reading it in an open meeting with Russ to discuss the agenda and facilitation Open to members of this committee who are available and willing interested in attending So it's essentially it'd be a continuation of the discussion We're having now except Russ would be present and anyone who could show up at whatever meeting time Russ and Laura available for could show up Correct. So this is both about both the agenda and facilitation Correct. Yes. Yes. Okay. So just I think that what we're really Going to be doing is saying yes, we trust a small group because not everybody is gonna come I'm not going to To discuss it and you know if there's tweaks to the agenda fine We've communicated enough Okay, is there any more discussion then? I'll call a roll call vote Dumont Yes Selman Yes Drucker No Rose yes Ross no Ravi Kumar the motion passes. So Stephanie you will um Reach out to Russ and see if we can get something set up for Monday, and I can let you know what my schedule is for that day Maybe what would be helpful is to maybe give me a few blocks of time on Monday and Tuesday specifically Okay, and I can reach out to him and then also I would need The draft of the agenda that you have because I'm assuming that would be used to have the discussion to give Something to discuss from or are we using Andres? I just want to be clear Yeah, I'll send a draft and Andra if you could send this in a word document and we can just I Can add the couple things that we discussed in the in the meeting to it so the planning group I don't know if that was specifically laid out the space where we're meeting I Think we're the two that I noted down I'd like to make another motion that we When putting together the agenda we include Andres agenda as at least three quarters of our time spent in the retreat based on the fact that This was the initial reason for requesting a retreat retreat To really get deeply into the structure and pace discussion So I'm I'm moving that at least three of our four hours be taken up with These issues that she has put together any second. I'd like to leave it to the small group but will a small group be doing that because if if We're being sent an agenda How is that going to work our agendas don't have times on them so we discussed having an agenda with these four items with Andres list including the additional ones as Background information or questions that and try to get to the point of what How do we make ourselves productive? Should we have a motion to vote that we all agree that that's the case? So it says something really I just want Hoping that that was something you were amenable to because I said something I Spoke on your behalf, and I shouldn't have Is it possible that if other people on this committee think of additional questions to add to Andres lips? You would be willing to accept those and and add to the list Yes. Yes, thanks. Okay, so we have 30 minutes left So my suggestion would be that we I think Darcy you had Asked her suggestion that we don't talk about CCA today, correct Yeah, I don't we're not ready to do that. Okay, so we is there some official way we move things off the agenda Okay, just strike it from today's agenda. Okay save it for another time. So let's strike number nine from today's agenda Do folks I think we should maybe talk about the 90-day timeline for for a bit Or do for other three items that we have left. I think we could do one So what what do folks feel like is the most? pressing since our Concerned about how long we'll spend doing outreach to stakeholders was sort of the rationale for How we were going to decide on what extension to ask for I think we should go to that first Any other thoughts? So my one thing Logistically speaking right so again our 90 days runs out August 20th so the next There's a couple ways we could do this, but my thought is we would probably want to Let the council know prior to August 20th whether or not we're going to seek an extension The next council meeting is August 19th. We could ask that they grant that extension at the 19th meeting but I guess as long as we have a Request in this as we're not going to meet this we'd like an extension. It doesn't have to necessarily be voted on the 19th So it sounds like this this our retreat is pretty full up, right? and so the 14th is Is is starting to get a little late if we want to let that if So here's my only discussion I think we have to have because I don't think we need to do we need to do this for much longer It sounds like we're going to ask for an extension. We're not getting something to the council by August 20th at this point the question is do we want to Is our hope that the council will vote on an extension on the 19th Or that we'll just request it by the 20th because if we're actually Hoping that the council will actively take up a measure that revises the order to grant us an extension before The 90 days runs out then the 14th at like 6 30 is actually fairly late to get something to the council and expect it on the agenda If we're just happy with saying hey, we're not going to make it. We're letting you know ahead of time Here's what we want, but you don't have to vote on it just yet. Then that that's a little bit more cushion I don't know if that makes sense. It's all about we want to let them know before August 20th If we're not going to make it. It's do we want them to vote on a revised order? prior to August 20th, or is it okay if they vote down on the 26th or on the 9th? Yeah, I suppose we can just Ask them to put on the agenda the fact that they will be asked to you know Like make a whatever change the order and we don't know what it is yet And then maybe you will Miraculously get to an agreement on the 14th and we'll have something so so I think there's so there's like Maybe a clarifying question is one option just to ask them without any other context Can we please have a 60-day or a 90-day extension to? Okay, I think that's Something we'll need to do the question is do we add any context to that? right By the 19th Is that what you're referring to? Yeah, maybe we'll have some context. Maybe we won't but if we can just do yeah, there's the Or even just we don't know how long yet. We're gonna decide our next meeting But I guess I was thinking that we know that we have some we've had some good discussion about the 90-day thing And what we might ask for them in terms of what we would offer them and what we would come back with later So I think the question is do we need more time to just think through that and I think the answer is yes So I guess I agree that we should put something on the agenda for the 19th And we don't know exactly what that's gonna be yet But it's gonna be an extension of some length of time to decide something So two things so so one if we're gonna do that we should Contact the council president like ASAP That's already going to be a very long meeting for the council. We're starting out when at 5 p.m. Which is an hour half earlier. It's going to be almost entirely consumed by the town manager evaluation There will be some regular business attended to but very little If there's There's no guarantee we can actually get on that agenda We might already be too late for that, but if we want to try to get on the agenda that request has to go in ASAP One other option that we haven't necessarily discussed although Laura just hinted at that I was gonna bring up even though I don't know if I necessarily agree with it is So we can ask for an extension right like a student turning in a late paper and say we need 90 more days Or and then hope that we can meet that The other option is we could go back and say we weren't able to meet this We have these great ideas. We don't know exactly how long it would take Can you revise the order to just get rid of the 90 days and not replace it with something else?  It's You know the 90 days was put there because it signals a sense of urgency and I think that's a good thing at the same Time I would also hate to say we need 60 more days and then 60 days from now We go back to them and say can we just have like 15 more right to some extent we might be a better We might be able to better gauge how long we need and so it might make sense to just go back to them and say Can we strike the time limit from the time requirement from it the order completely and just say We'll return initial goals and then we decide when we're going to send those to the council When you create a plan my guess is you're going to be creating a timeline Right, so that's going to be part of what you're going to be identifying If we're going to ask for time on the 19th. I think it needs to be Very simple and I don't knowing the council. I don't think that would be simple to Strike something that was discussed for a long time. So I would want it to be Something much more vague for them to be able to say yeah, we can do that and go on Can you clarify that you said keep it simple and then you said to make it vague and I think of simple as clear I Don't think that I mean let's let Lynn figure out what the way to Give us an extension to ask for an extension would be We don't have to specify the way that the council will do it. It would be in our interest to Give Lynn the motion and not to say we want an extension Lynn figure it out one she might say no because she has a million other things But it's in our interest to to continue to ask for what we want by actually I would actually say we should literally send Lynn the motion we want the council to ask for that would make our lives easier And definitely make her life easier. I would Prefer that we just put a number in there and say we want a 60-day extension And I guess I would say that we should just make it 90 days and if we can do it in 60 days That's great, but that will give us one more sort of season of time I might just a little Observation is that if you go to the council requesting whatever you request They're seeing you all as the body that are the experts now So they're not going to have big discussion around timeline. They want you to do that So is my guess I mean I know I have two council members here But I thought that was the whole point of creating this committee was this is where the expertise lies And that's what committees are meant to do is to be the ones that think these things through and then bring the Recommendations to the council. So if you say you want another 60 days or 90 days, whatever you decide is going to be More likely to you know to be approved because it's coming from you all as the experts of what you need 120 so he said 120 so Evan can you clear so? Could we ask Lynn Today or tonight or whenever they can we get on the agenda for the 19th to discuss the extension of the Or do we need to have the motion before we can make that ask? We can ask her no, no we can absolutely just ask her Is it possible for us to get on the agenda for the 19th? to request an extension okay, and She might say yes. She might say no The packet is usually posted Thursday mornings And so that would be the 15th, which would be the morning after our meeting They'd like to have all of the materials by the Wednesday so If we have confidence that on the meeting ever 14th we can hash out exactly what we're asking for We could certainly send it at the end of our meeting and it would make it into the packet in time for counselors to see it It's it's tight. It's right And we and so then the question becomes do we feel like We know how many days we want to ask for ahead of time And I would and I would you know we kind of laughed at Jesse saying 120 But I would almost air on the side of ask for more time than we need because what I really don't want to do is then go back To the council in 60 days and say we need more time Which is why I offered the option of just saying can we remove that time requirement and I kind of would echo what Stephanie saying which is that I Never like to try and predict what the council is going to do but Given that it was a constraint placed on us. We're see yeah I don't imagine a big fight if we're going back to them and requesting Something I think they're they're going to give us what what we want Just to clear for am I hearing that? you think the most effective approach is to Put something in front of them that is a motion that is essentially a yes or no question rather than asking to have a discussion at their meeting a 100% and I wasn't joking about 120 Well, are we How do we feel about an? 90 day Could we agree on that one? So that puts us at November 18th 120 puts us at December 18th So we also don't have to decide the number of days right now We just have to decide and I think we have whether or not We're going to ask the council president if we can get on the agenda for the 19th Yeah, I think we I Guess I sense agreement on that Darcy do you have any great? And we'll make sure that on the 14th our main focus is determining what that mission Motion will be okay, should we So Yes, I can do that or Stephanie you can do that. Okay, I could do that tomorrow morning first thing Great. Thanks. They may ask what the motion is though is that Okay Like the night out Okay, okay, do we want to talk about the stakeholder engagement document for 10 minutes or so or how are people feeling? Maybe Andra, do you want to go over it and then have we'll have time to digest it for next time? Okay, so What the request was to Have something that we could hand to people who we want to talk to the stakeholders saying who we are and why we want to talk to them and just Have I I thought it'd be good to kind of introduce what we Have agreed on so far and tried to put that in So You know it may it needs some word smithing. It was done rather late at night and The questions for outreach is sort of an idea that we had of doing a survey But that you could also be a part of a sort of interview process it just examples to You know get us thinking In different kinds of questions for residents we You know might ask some specific questions. Are you ever planning to get an electric car? What would you know, what are the barriers that you'd have to overcome and you know, we'll find out about barriers to Charging and affording it and all that and businesses could ask them questions about If they've ever done a massive audit and upgraded or you know, did they use induction stows? Sort of get a sense while we're talking to them of sort of what's the state of Activity already on issues that are relevant and then I Took the liberty of Writing out a timeline just so that I could see if it were even possible to do it in 60 days, I think Or maybe it ended up being 90 days anyhow the I threw things in there three forums and three different Settings a Survey Joint meetings with some related committees and then somehow kind of Working in the timeline of the CCA at the same time Once we have something that we are comfortable with we could start talking with people in August so It doesn't have to be a final product people could try it out Obviously wouldn't have the timeline on there Or the questions that you know would be one pager Thanks, Andrew. Um, I thought this was really great. So thank you so much for doing it I think it to my point earlier. I think this made me feel like we've Really done a lot in our meetings together and that we're you know You know, I think I want to hear what others think but you know, I feel like we're we're making really good progress and I guess I would like to see us potentially You know, I think that we could discuss whether we want to put a carbon neutrality by 2045 or at this point Just say we deaf, you know, we want to be carbon neutral between 2030 and 2040 50 But other than that was my only comment that I that I have that's easy. I'll do it right now That was actually so I Think this is a really good document what I one of the things that I like is how you had sort of broader overarching questions that would be applicable to any stakeholder But then also acknowledge that some stakeholder groups might have more specific questions Which I think is really cool because I think there's some things that we want input on From everyone right and then other things that are you know, we're not gonna ask good you know renter about Barriers to developing solar on their new building, you know anyways My one comment for questions is for the broad questions. I'd like to see a maybe one more question It's a little bit more focused on Challenges or barriers it's mentioned in sort of the resident one what barriers would you have specific to electric cars? but I think you know, I remember when Darcy and I were first started talking about this and Carbon-neutral goals and I talked to some business owners and all I had to say to them was carbon neutral And they could just list to me why it would be really hard for them to get there right and just giving them a space to List sort of what they see as obstacles and barriers would be really useful The one part that did confuse me is the part that just Laura just put out We want Amherst to model innovative solutions at other towns could adopt to be carbon neutral by 2045 But we haven't said that I read that as our goal is carbon neutral by 2045 But we haven't said a goal yet. Well, it came out of just you know, we're science-based and that's Basically what the science is saying now so I Chose 2045 to like try to beat the 2050 a little bit to be slightly more ambitious, but I'm fine with making it a range Well, I would just strike that line because if we're arguing that we're doing stakeholder engagement to help set a goal We don't want to seem like we're predetermining a Goal that would seem to negate the reason for doing engagement before a goal setting maybe Put that we are Looking to set a goal An ambitious goal I Want to I think that dovetails a little bit with something stuff you had brought up at a previous meeting a lot of this Assumes a certain level of education and buy-in already and I think we need to just practice and The next level I'd love to start thinking about What does this question look like if it's the first conversation on this topic potentially and I mean there's a lot of The right word is maybe education privilege Going into this and I we need to Maybe we need help from someone else Can explain that or we can use our create you know figure that out and make these questions more egalitarian and back a step And both not not all of them. I think different questions for different stakeholders so We don't necessarily have to agree on the questions We could just go out and try out questions and kind of note what Resonated with different stakeholders, you know if if we just sort of did practice runs ourselves with people who We know that you know just let us let me practice with you on that, you know to And they could help us formulate the questions for other people like them Yeah, I think I see the most important thing for us to sort of agree with is the narrative around what our group is and What we want to get out of asking questions and what we want to get out of engaging with stakeholders Which isn't on here, but maybe that's something we can talk we can add and talk about a little bit more So I think because that well, I think that in Combo I think we have all the pieces other than that little that piece just making sure it's clear because the questions are coming out of some of the sector work that we've done and These are great ones, you know more generally and then we Then I think we have all the pieces to start going out and having those conversations in Different forums Would you clarify Laura what what what you think is missing? Yeah, I think that we just want to agree Because I'm assuming that we're not gonna have all these conversations as a full committee So I want us to agree on what the goal of the sequel of the outreach is you know, and it may be as simple as we just want to make sure our were our constituents or Community members have buy-in and we've understood other concerns like that could be it but maybe there's others I don't think we've had a chance to really think through that yet. Could you like write that down for me? I'll just like add Things if people could yeah, so I can do that Okay, great. Thanks Darcy, okay, too. Is it how much? Consensus building do we still need around the narrative if we just took that and kind of Sample, you know some People like what do you think of this? Does this make sense? Can you understand it? Could we do that and at this point or is the committee not comfortable with you know put draft on it? but just try it out as it does this communicate what People might want to know When we're asking them to talk with us Yeah, I think that's a good idea. There's some minor edits. I'd want First so one again striking the line of the goal and just say we're looking to set goals One of the other thing is the the line. We are a committee of two town counselors and seven residents I would this is so minor, but I'd rather see that flipped so the residents come first I always worry about town counselors having some like undue gravity in a committee that should be resident focused and There's one other but I forgot it Yeah, I don't have a problem with us testing this out with people that we we know as long as it's clear that it's draft I guess I envisioned sometimes we would make we would hand this out and sometimes this would just be our talking points when We're talking with somebody so I don't necessarily envision that this would be like a handout. We always Gave to people Darcy's you have a comment. No, I I think it's a really good idea to have something and I Could you scroll down to August? Stephanie just so we can see what? What and it was suggesting that we do in August So she's suggesting each member have a discussion with a business owner and submit notes to the outreach work group which doesn't exist Um Might exist sometime in the future so we'd have the handout and we would have the just the What two or three questions that are on the previous page that we would? Ask the business and write down the notes and bring it back Or you know come up with your own question that you think gets it what we should be asking and That'll be very informative. I might I Think this is a it's a good first look at this might be something I might want to table further I know we said no substantive stuff the retreat But since this is sort of the narrative we're telling about our committee and also since outreach is going to be really important And some of these questions are really important It might be nice to have Under bring a slightly revised document to the retreat and get people's input Because I think that the questions we ask people have to do a lot with like what we're looking for as a committee And what we're interested in and so it'd be it'd be really interesting to get to hear from other people about Is this the narrative of the committee you think and what additional questions? Would you would you add I Want to agree and it's a great document. I love the intention. It's really I think it's Always helpful to have these things to react to I have a feeling the other people who aren't here Make it that much better as well Okay, great. I agree as well. So potentially I know you've already made notes I'll send you these short notes that we talked about and then We can have that in the packet of information. We we give to Russ and I actually think that this A comp if if the beginning of our retreat is just sort of making sure we kind of all agree with this basic language in the Beginning and what sectors we're dealing with and we've done that which is great So again, I think we've done a lot better than we were giving ourselves credit for So Any topics or unforeseen Items unforeseen What didn't we so we need to The sector reports and the CCA presentation, I think the sector reports will see How they feed into the retreat discussion Yeah, so you'll see my name on there because I wasn't here last week and I didn't write it before last week's meeting And I was also charged with doing buildings which Andrew was charged with and so I said well before I do mine Why don't I read hers and I looked at hers and I went well this is so much better than what I would have come up with I don't know that I can improve upon this So the one thing I did was develop the document in front of you Which you're probably wondering what this is and it was I thought who are the stakeholders and I made a list of them And then I look at looked at Andra's and she had the exact same list So that was useful, but I'm a very visual person and so I sort of started to map out What does that look like and where is their overlap? And so you know developers are a stakeholder, but right now because so much development is mixed use the commercial developers are also Sort of the residential developers, so we might not have to we might be doing commercial and residential together there And to just sort of start to get a visual of what this might look like when we move on to outreach So we don't have to talk about it But I want to make sure you knew why you had this in front of you. I didn't I didn't have one so I feel so Upset that I didn't recognize your beautiful picture because I am also a visual person This is great, thanks Evan Okay Okay, perfect. Well, then we've done and we actually did that agenda item. I would say Because our names are so close. That's why Okay, great. No more public comment and we've talked about the agenda for the retreat and I think we've also been pretty clear that the agenda for the 14th is going to need to be very focused on the 90-day Motion and anything else. I think that comes in the retreat So I would move to finalize the agenda for our 14th meeting after the at the end of the retreat But that would be great because I'm going to be away on the week of the next meeting So I would want to get it posted and everything on that Friday and try to get you packet materials if you need them But I think you'll probably have a lot of what you need already Okay, great. Well, then I think the meeting is adjourned. Thank you everyone. Thanks, Asherin for joining. Thank you Thank you. Thank you