starting from the beginning. We're now going to be looking at not just calling single nucleotide variants and small indels, but looking for larger structural variant. So the objective of this module is really, well, understand what I need by structural variants. How can you discover structural variant from next generation sequencing data? There's lots of different ways. And a little bit like I started saying with indels, it's harder to detect structural variants than single nucleotide variants. And I'll explain a little bit the difference and the weaknesses of the different method. What patterns do you expect? I guess you guys started already in the IGV session yesterday looking at deletions and patterns that you expected, but we'll go over that in more detail now. And detect them using the program deli that's running, and then looking at some of them in more detail. So what are the structural? What do we mean by structural variants? So there's lots of definitions, but it's roughly something that affects something that's bigger than 50 base pairs. So you can think of single base pair change, small indels, structural variants, we typically mean something that's just a little bit bigger, so slightly bigger chunks of the genome that are changed. It can be deletion. It can be an insertion. It can be an inversion. You've got mobile element transposition, duplications of whole sections, translocations, or anything. All of these bigger change, this is what we mean by structural variants. It's been known for many years that these types of structural variants also occur. So as soon as you had technologies that could look at chromosomes, for instance, we could detect things like translocation, using this fish technology. But all of these are sort of high level, low resolution methods. Now that we have all of this detailed sequencing data, we should be able to extract from all of these reads very, very high resolution information about these changes. And exactly where on the chromosome is that translocation? So there's all of these larger chains that are happening to the genome. And so really the objective of this module is how can we extract that from the read information. This is particularly relevant in cancer. So this is an example of a normal tumor. So the chromosome painting here, in the normal genome, we painted just one color. The fact that they're all jumbled up is because there's all of these larger rearrangements, larger translocation, chromosome duplications, and so on. So how can we, if we sequence and we all we have our bits and pieces of the genome, how can we actually extract back this information? So the different classes of structural variants. So you've got copy number. So this is the deletions and the duplications. You're changing the number of copies of a particular section of the genome. You have these other rearrangements that are copy neutral, so inversions don't change the content, but are changing the order, same with translocation. And then what we can call other structural variants with normal insertions of sequences, or transposon that are jumping around, and so on. Here now is sort of a more visual representation of these. Maybe I use this. So here you have, so deletion. So the reference genome lost at copy. So this is just showing this here, a new insertion relative to the reference. There's a piece in the genome that you've sequenced. There's a piece, there's a new piece, a mobile element insertion, similar. This is an insertion, but just of a, and the trick here is that if you're talking about alloys and things like that, you have an insertion, but that particular piece of DNA is also found in lots of other regions of the genome, so this can be challenging to detect. Standard duplication, you have the same region that just gets copied next to each other, to interspers. So this is also a duplication, but the two segments are not next to each other. Inversion, as I mentioned, so you've got a whole section of the genome that gets flipped, translocation, two chromosomes exchanging, and so on. So a lot of our ability to detect these structural variants sort of follows the technology. So it started with karyotyping, just looking at very gross normalities of chromosome, CGH and fish, and some of these technologies that I was talking about, that we were looking at gave sort of slightly more precise, but you still didn't really know which genes were affected in detail or anything like that, and we were missing out small events in the early 2000s. In the early 2000s, so microarrays were used, especially ArrayCGH, to have much more precise profiling of especially copy number change, and now with the sequencing, you would think that we can detect everything, but as you'll see, the challenge is really on the informatics analysis of these data. So ArrayCGH is, you know, and SNP arrays, both can be used to detect copy number. ArrayCGH, you really have probes throughout the genome, and then based on the level of intensity, you have an expected level of intensity, and so if you have higher intensity of the probe, you're able to detect that there's a gain, lower, you know, one copy, zero copy. So, and then because you have tiling of probes throughout the genome, you're able to detect these copy-neutral, these copy, not neutral copy number change. One challenge or limitation here is that you won't be able to detect an inversion or a translocation using this type of approach. You can use the very popular SNP arrays as well. So these were used for genotyping initially, so SNP is you really have representative of all of the SNP in the genome. These were designed after, you know, projects like HapMap project to look, you know, which variants are present in different, but you can also use that because you can look at the level of intensity as well in these arrays at some level to detect copy. So, I mean, it is possible to detect copy number variants using arrays, but with next generation sequencing, in theory, we can detect those copy number change, but also other types of event, much more precise in theory. So whether, you know, what we were looking at in the first module was more, you know, these types of the point mutations, so you should be familiar, this is very much like IGV. You've got these Paranen sequencing, we're looking for these types of changes. In some case, we could detect a small indelicient indels as well, but now what we're trying to do in this lab is move into this other spectrum of, you know, if there's no reads in a particular region of the genome, it's likely a deletion. If you have more reads than you expect, you should be able to call it a game. We should be looking for, be able to look for these types of weird pairs that maybe point to a translocation breakpoint and so on. So, you know, all the information is in the reads and the question is, can we extract the information from the reads? But, you know, one challenge is that, you know, here, if you remember the step is that we would map all the reads, these were all mapped correctly to this location and then we looked for change. The problem with these guys is that, you know, you get things like this where the reads are not really mapping where you should be and all sorts of other things. So we're gonna be using other properties of the reads. So the strategies to call structural variance from reads is that we're gonna use the read information in a different way. So we can use the read pair information. So I'll get into each of them separately, we can use the way the two ends of the reads are mapping as a way of detecting structural variance. We can use the read depth, but this is what I was doing sort of by eye, to look for places where there's more read or fewer reads. We can use the fact that sometimes the reads are gonna be split over the breakpoint. So this is like, again, looking at the read itself and how it's mapping and then seeing patterns where it's getting cut, or you can do the Novo assembly. This is like in the session you did with Jared last night where you're starting from scratch. All of the other ones are using the reference as a... So we'll go over sort of quickly, but just to give you a sense of how these methods work. So using the read pair information first. So here, every time, well, most, so especially if you're interested in structural variance, typically you'll do paired and reads. So you have a fragment and you're reading at the beginning and at the end of the fragment.  Because then if you have, so this is a library where the target was to have fragments of 10KB and then we read the beginning and the end. So most fragments that you read tend to then have this distribution, they're all around 10KB, but you have reads where the beginning and the end are way too far once you map them or way too short. And we're gonna be using that information to identify regions that have had rearrangements, basically. But the key here is that your actual DNA fragments were all 10KB. So as soon as you map them and they're not 10KB, they're not concordant, you can use that information to say something is going on in the genome at that position. So you can use that information. So this is what you expect on the left.  There's an expectation of how far they are. If when you map on the reference genome, they're too far, this means that there's probably a piece that's missing. So you can associate that to be the deletion because when you map on the genome, it's 20KB apart, but almost none of your fragments were 20KB based on the way you prepare the fragments. So if you see a fragment that looks like it's 20KB, it's probably because you have a 10KB deletion. You have the reverse. If once you map them on the genome, they're very close, maybe it's because there's an insertion in the genome that you've sequenced. So the read pair strategies are using information about how the pairs map to detect these change. Similarly, so this was just using the distance. You can also use the orientation in some case. There's a specific expected pattern of how when you read the fragment, you expect a specific orientation. So this is the orientation that you expect of the read. If you map on the reference and you see a pattern like this where... So one end is here and then the other end is not here. It's over there. Again, you can go back and figure out what was the underlying genome. And then configuration. So a pattern like this, when you map on the reference genome, it's probably an indication that there's a tandem digitization. An insertion is gonna have its own little pattern. An insertion, an inversion, sorry. An inversion is interesting in the sense that it's gonna have, you should, if it's a good inversion or if you have nothing, you'll have the two break points will give you complementary evidence of something that's weird. So this guy, this guy maps here and here. That makes no sense. You expected them to be like this and the same with this. So you can really, it's like a mini puzzle. You can turn it back and figure out what was going on. That said, and this is now an insertion from maybe a different region, for instance, or repetitive on it. So all of them will have very distinctive patterns in terms of how the pairing works. The trick is how do you actually implement an algorithm that looks for these patterns and predict the structural variance? So there's a number of tools that do that. So break dancer, deli lumpy. So the one that we're gonna be using is deli in this case. But all of them try to do the same thing. They look for this evidence of mismapping pairs, look for multiple instances, because just like with the single nucleotide, if you just see one weird read, you don't care. But if you see multiple reads that are saying the same thing, that's probably a good sign. Well, this is maybe not super interesting or relevant, but well, one thing that's, so this is one of the early on whole genome sequencing study that I know I participated in. And here we were doing this sort of semi-manually before these algorithms were out there and we were trying to interpret based on the read pairs and all of that, detecting deletions, duplications and so on. One of the things that, and again, at that time we didn't have whole genome sequencing. This is five, six years ago, it was still expensive to do whole genome sequencing and whole, you know, completely. So we had this paradigm strategy and so on, detecting. But one thing that's interesting in this table is that we had two normal sample and then we had all of these cancer samples. And if you look, one thing that should jump out as a bit weird is that the normal, oops, the normal sample look almost as bad as a cancer sample. And the reason for that is because there's a lot of germline structural variants as well. So when you're sequencing a tumor, you also need to sequence a normal sample to know which change or somatic change versus germline change. But it's not, that's not so bad, that's so interesting. I wanted to show you this just to show the complexity, though, of these types of data sets. So this is, well, it's hard to see with this light, but what this is showing is, so on top you have a race EGH. So this is just giving you an indication of copy number. As you sequence through the genome, there's different chromosome, chromosome one, three, 17, that clearly have these very big amplification of certain regions because they have multiple copies. So the thing we get with whole genome sequencing is the same thing in a way. So we get, the coverage just shows you that there's clearly some regions of the genome that have multiple copies, so you can definitely see that. But what you have on top of that is all of this paired-end information that gives you some idea of what's connected to what. So what the graph down here shows is, for instance, so here clearly there's an amplification of this section and clearly there's an amplification here, but this says that we had a thousand pairs that linked this DNA to that DNA. So we know that, we know more than just there's lots and lots of copies. We know that this bit seems to now, in this rearranged genome, be next to this bit as a tandem duplication of that little section. And we can actually go back. So this means that, well, we call it maybe an early event, but it's just, we know the specific break points and we know what is next to what. So we know maybe that there's a fusion gene or that there's a new promoter to that gene. And so it's useful information, but it's also sort of a bit messy and hard to interpret exactly how it's arranged and what happened. Anyway, so in terms of a summary of these types of approaches, well, I didn't discuss any of these things before. So it's challenging when you've got repetitive regions because those will lead to weird pairs because you just don't know where to put them. So it's harder to interpret structural variants when the regions are not unique because then you have mapping issues on top of that. When it's highly rearranged, it's hard to untangle and really know what's going on. So all of the approaches in the tool that I talked about tend to have high rates of false positives because, again, repetitive regions might lead to false positives. Highly rearranged regions are difficult. But in theory, from these approaches, you can detect almost anything. So it's still a valuable strategy, but it's gonna have a lot of false positives too. Another strategy, that sort of complimentary strategy is to use the read depth information. So this, we've sort of manually done a little bit in IGV. So if you look at the coverage, just looking at the coverage, it's kind of easy just to, it jumps out that there's more read in this region than in the rest of the genome. So it's likely that you have a duplication. So this also, I mean, so this looks visually very easy in practice. It's also a little bit challenging because other things affect the read density in different regions of the genome. So you've got, so it's also, there's a number of tools that use these approaches, but it can be also a bit challenging. Many of the approaches similar to the, that would work on the race EGH and so on, also work on read depth. You just need to adapt them a little bit to take into account the variability in the sequence. So typically you tend to try to bin and then count. But I mean, this is complimentary approach that works relatively well. This is another plug for some of the things that we do and maybe I skip this slide, but the approach that a student in my group has developed is that one challenge is that the coverage tends to vary across the genome quite a bit. So this shows multiple samples, multiple normal samples, and shows that the coverage across the genome tends to vary quite a bit. And we use that as sort of as a reference. And then when we're interested in one sample, we look at the amount of coverage in that specific sample, and it becomes very easy to see that it's an outlier potentially. But again, this is just one of the approach. There's lots and lots of them where you can apply, looking at the read depth to try to detect a copy number. And again, it's not a trivial problem. And especially in regions again that are repetitive and so on, there's still a relatively high rate of false positive. So as a summary, so we won't be using any of these tools in the practical, but of course you can try and you can visualize the calls in IGV as we've done for the small change. So copy number, so read depth approaches, I'm putting relatively low resolution because you have to have bins of a certain size. You don't get exactly the break point because you're just binning the data and finding places where it's going up but down. And just like the array based approach with read depth, you cannot see an inversion or the balance rearrangements. Strength, so from this, you're actually estimating the number of copies of that part of the genome. And that in some case might be useful. If it's a gene that's duplicated, is there two copies, four copies, five copies and so on. So if you don't have a lot of coverage, if you make bins big enough, you might still see this whole chromosome is gone because I don't have any reads on it. So you can sort of adjust the resolution. So that was this type of approach. The other type of approach that I won't go into much detail is the split read approaches. And this is a bit similar to the read pairs, but here you're really looking at one of the reads basically overlapping the break point and giving an indication that there's something funny because half of the read maps here and then the other half. Before I was saying this end of the read maps here and the other end of the map over there, this is really the read itself that just partially maps at this location and then it breaks out. And so you've got approaches that specifically target the split reads. And actually, deli that we're gonna use combines the read pair and the split read to really identify these structural variants. It uses reads that map a little bit and then the other part of the read doesn't map. But again, this is very similar to the, but you can imagine again that you have to look into how the reads map in the file and these are all reads that map in a weird way in the file. So you have to scan the files to look for these pieces of evidence. So you need to have sufficient coverage for these methods to work because you need the read to actually overlap the break point, same problems in repetitive regions. You can combine them with read pair methods and so that's really what deli does. But this one is really great because you have the specific base. So you have a reading that maps to the genome and suddenly it doesn't map anymore, it maps somewhere else. So you really have base pair resolution through that. The last section, which I won't discuss much, but this is just you assemble all of your reads and then you compare to the reference after that. So this is completely like using approaches like Jared talked about last night. You assemble your genome, your tumor from all of the reads and then you compare directly the context that you've generated with the reference and see if there are differences. So the DeNovo assembly tools, but except that as Jared said yesterday, assembling something like the human genome is still quite challenging with the short reads. That's one of the challenges we're trying to predict as V, but you can definitely try, you know, you assemble from scratch and then you look at differences between the genome you've assembled and not. Weakness, it's computationally quite intensive. It's hard to resolve the repetitive and the complex regions. But in theory, that's the ultimate way. If we had longer reads and a good way of assembling the genome, this would solve the problem. We'd just assemble the genome that we sequenced and compared and compared to. So in summary, and I'm coming to the end of this intro and we'll move back to the practical. So you've got the whole range of approaches that, you know, starting from approaches that use depth of coverage that have low resolution but are quite easy.  You have approaches that are paired in, that, you know, it starts to have a better resolution. You have the split read that really point, but now you really have to sequence quite a bit to get enough split read to detect events, to default the novel assembly, but those are, in theory, high resolution but very difficult. It's more difficult than costly in this case. It's just difficult because assembling any genome is difficult. You don't know the difference between problem in the assembly and, yeah. So do you know any programs that can sort of give you a list? So if you're using a new novel assembly. That's a good question. I guess any programs that can pull out differences in assembly would be good, right? So there's lots of programs for do you know what assembly that actually help you assess and compare a different assembly to know which one is better and sort of zoom in. Personally, I have not used the novel assembly to call structural variance in human because it's quite, but it's really, I mean, at the end you're getting context out of your assembly, right? And then you can blot those on the reference and see which ones map perfectly and which ones don't, right, and then pull out. So, but any other tool that would actually help you sort of compare assembly just in general for the novel assembly would also in a way, but I'm not so familiar with things that specifically extract structural variance from that. There must be, but I haven't used any of them. Yeah, it's because for fungal organisms, you might say they're not very big. Yeah. And it's not that costly to do that. Yeah. And you're saying that it's resolution. Yeah, absolutely, cost. Because I mean, one problem is, so if you, like for instance, if you have a sec, you know, if you have an insertion of something that's not in your genome, right? In your reference genome, then if you're only doing things that are reference-based, that information gets lost. Those reads don't get mapped. And so they don't really show up. So it's just that like, again, I mean, maybe this is a bit too human-centric the way I'm presenting it. There's not much of that in human. Most of the structural variants are of the other types. And so we're not missing much by not doing that. And we can do that sort of independently. Do you have reads that don't map and things like that? But for sure, if you can do a de novo assembly, it's actually quite good to detect structural variance. And then you're comparing these samples. Yes. The inversions, I think the inferior, the inversions are not so bad because the only problem, so the reads map properly, it's just that they don't have the right orientation, right? So usually those mapped okay, and it's just that you need to have a program like daily to just scan these map reads and pull out and extract them. So those in theory are not so bad. In practice, I think while it's human, they're not so common. There's not so many inversions. So there's not so many, there's many fewer than deletions and duplication for sure. So they're less common, but in theory you can extract them from that. And they have this advantage of again, having a good inversion would have two breakpoints. And so you should have evidence on both sides. And so you can really have confidence that it's real because if you've got, I mean, in my slides, I have an example of it. If you really see that pattern, it's pretty clear that it's real because, okay? Yeah, so just before I finish with a few examples of what this looked like, again, this is inhuman, but typically what people do is actually apply many methods and combine the results of all of them because they all have false positive and they all have false negatives. So typically people try many methods and validate. So if you look at thousand genome project or this is a recent sequencing projects in the Netherlands for structural variants, they really apply, there's different tools that are good for different types of events. So they apply all sorts of tools. They look at the variants that are called in many tools and then either they focus on things that are called by all, but then they're probably missing a lot or they go in and they validate. But it's quite hard and tricky to detect the structural variants and interests in general compared to the individual. Oh, okay, but in terms of what you hope to see, so what you hope to see are things like this. Again, we've seen some examples when we were looking at IGV. This is the type of profile we hope to see for deletion. This would be a homozygous deletion because you have no reads at all in this intron and then all the reads flanking are colored here because they don't have the expected insert size, right? So they're all too far apart in the genome. So this was next to this probably and so on. So we'll see examples like this, but these are, this is a signature of a deletion, a homozygous deletion. This would be a signature of a duplication. So notice that you have more reads in this region compared to the flanks. And again, at the boundary of this duplication you have all pairs of reads that have the wrong orientation in this case, with this probably being next to that. And they're like, on the reference, it makes no sense. That's because in the genome you've sequenced, these are next to each other, but it makes no sense. Here's an example of an inversion that I was talking about. So an inversion would lead to this type of pattern where you have roughly an even coverage. This is not a copy number gain, but you have lots of pairs, which you have one end here and the other end that's here and the reverse with pairs where connect from here to here. So this is a pattern where you've got a break point here and then here somewhere. And the whole segment is flipped such that this is indeed next to that and this is indeed next to this. And so this looks like a real inversion. Here's something that would be an insertion, a line insertion. So line insertion here where within the repeat mapping is difficult, but then all of these reads, so here they don't have the expected insert length. This would be an insertion in the reference in this case. But so we'll go through the exercise. We won't be, we're gonna focus on the deletion in the practical, but you'll see examples like this. Another cool thing with SVs is that it gives you an opportunity to make nice plots, but they look nicer than the SNVs. So these plots just show sort of all chromosomes from one down to here and these are all sort of insertions or translocations. These are big events, so you can represent them in a different way too. But I think with that, I'll take more questions if you have, but we'll go back and actually go through the practical and run deli and try to find some different types of events. Well, so the most common are really the deletions and the duplication. So there's even between individual, right? There's more of the genome that's different because of these structural variants than SNPs, right? So we have quite a lot, right? So there's what we're gonna see. We're gonna be in just one portion of the genome and there's lots of deletion. Most of the genome, we don't really know what it does and we have tons of deletion, right? So it's one of the reason why I don't wanna sequence my own genome. I don't wanna see where I have deletion and you don't have that gene. It's like, what does that mean? It's like, I don't wanna know, right? So it's like, because we have tons of deletion. I forget how much of the genome is different based on structural variants, but it's, I think 10 times more than SNPs, right? Because they're bigger, so they're less frequent, right? So you don't have 10 million SNPs. You don't have 10 million structural variants. I forget the number. You have a few thousand structural variants, I think, typically between two individuals, but they affect large chunks of the genomes. In terms of total bases, it's quite the bit. So, yeah. Well, and then in the complex regions, there's even more rearrangements. So we're probably underestimating the actual number of rearrangements because in the complex regions full of repeats, we don't really know what's going on from the short read data. We need the longer reads to sort out. So we probably, these are probably underestimated, looking in good regions. We already know that there's 10 times more bases affected by structural variants, small deletion, small duplication of SNPs.


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I got a house for you over here in Verona. It's 736 Vailmont. Come on in and check it out So let me tell you a little bit about this house here in Vailmont The husband turned one of the bedrooms into a closet for his wife. So I can't wait to show you This is every girl's dream right here. So you come into this house. You got these great hardwood floors Everything's this beautiful open floor plan come back here.  So why not turn a bedroom into a giant closet? Welcome to the second floor up here. There's so much potential that you can do with this space It is basically a bonus bedroom an office. There's two rooms up here There's so much you can do with it. So I hope you've enjoyed the tour the inside tour of this home This house has a lot to offer. It's got this great fenced-in backyard It has a detached garage along with an integral garage Also has off-street parking, and then it has an additional yard space that goes down to the hillside Thanks again for watching, and I hope to see you again next time. Have a great day


All right, how's everyone doing? I think we're live now Think we are live. I'm trying to get this all set up. So people can actually see What we're talking about during everything. So how's everyone doing tonight? I see they see there's questions See how many people we got only we got quite a few people registered Let's see how many people pop on I can see the registrations. I can't see how many people are in here alive So if you guys can feel free to shout it out Yeah, maybe I'll give them a few minutes I'll give you I want a few minutes since it's a different kind of process than Instagram People got to go check their email to get the link and all that crap Nazis on the way so yeah, this is we're gonna talk about the history of Canada sea banks as we know them right a Lot of people are familiar with sea banks as far as the attitude More modern type seed banks, but this goes this is a an industry that goes back a long way Yeah, yeah So that's what we're gonna be going over I'm gonna try to do most of the illustrating from my end like the old seed bank catalogs and not so is going to try to handle most of the Talking because I mean this is his specialty, right? Let's see if there's any questions. I can answer real quick Any chance you could get CSI on I think it would make one of the best podcasts in Canada's history actually sent a Picture of that that comment to CSI so so he can see it himself Let's see what else we got anything else I can answer hash plant to Neville I'm sure Not so remember that It will be available to watch for a short period of time if you miss the live event. Hopefully we can record it I have no I sit on the elbow flick.  Personal favorite cloner line to come from Neville's work. I'll let not to answer that I Mean nl5 Hayes has the the majority vote I would say but I'm a fan of super scum ultra scum super scum Someone asked hi there. I've been I'm very new to this all however I've been creating my own for a couple years crossing hemp high CBD varieties with cannabis strains for my own personal use Is this a thing? Yes, it's absolutely a thing. Yeah, man. I came into it when Forums worth a source of knowledge and my god my god how much has changed, you know We are here Are you doing bud? I'm good finally worked Sorry, yeah, sorry everyone for the technical difficulties, but it appears that I can see my face and everybody hear me. Yeah, I think so Can you guys hear him? Fantastic I can see your hands Matt. Yeah, I Mounted this so I can I can illustrate as you talk through a certain things, you know with the sea bait catalogs the sensei catalogs SSSC we got here. We've got even the original sacred packs as you talk about any of it. So Let's just start rolling man All right, so this is the first edition of our new thing So obviously like we've never done this before hopefully it works a little smoother than live And We'll be able to do a couple more cooler things. We should be able to see people's questions.  So we'll just try to Bullshit for a while and get where we can on some of this stuff. So I Don't know where we want to begin. I thought maybe this Thing would be good to talk about like some some seed bank history. Yeah You know, obviously like now there's a lot of stuff It's kind of coming out of the woodwork Where people are talking about a lot of famous old cuts from the 80s and 90s seed lines and all that and I thought that like there was a bunch of people that Didn't maybe didn't know some of the history behind all how all that occurred And so obviously since it's weed history, it's not entirely exact But this is everything we're gonna talk about is The best that we know it, right? Yeah There could be some different information not everything could be entirely correct, but we're gonna give it our best shot to give you What we think and what we know and all that right that is correct So that's the word so the reason why we wanted to start with Like sort of Neville and sort of Holland history Is if that's not where like seed history started obviously like there was stuff going on in California there was sacred there was plenty of private breeders, but in Holland that was sort of the first place where you could literally be a nobody and just send them money and get seeds Yeah, like kind of in California at least from my knowledge and experience you kind of had to know somebody you kind of had to be connected a little bit You know you had to be within certain circles For instance, you know, I grew up in the Midwest And there was no access to seeds. There was no culture or anything like that So the only places that we knew how to get weed were dead shows and Holland and so you could mail order from Holland you could You could fly out there and buy them direct and kind of try to bring them back yourself. So To me, that's kind of where like modern weed history as far as like most people's access to it Begins Yeah, if you were in certain circles, if you were in the Pacific Northwest, I mean, you know, obviously it starts before that but Neville put an ad in high times and 84 or so and That started what Matt's holding up right now is is 85 catalog and because Holland's Because Holland's laws had changed then they were sort of the first place that could like really make seeds available to everybody, right? So as a result of that, like that's where a lot of people got Most of their seed stock it wasn't from connections. It wasn't from friends that those were small groups You know Neville SSSC You know a couple other small places they allowed Everybody people from Florida people from Chicago people from New York people from North Carolina, Virginia Wherever to just if they had the balls to go there.  They could get it right and so that's where that's where kind of like our modern story starts and that's where like a lot of A lot of seed strains and a lot of lines that became famous to everybody like haze Northern lights skunk one G13 maple leaf all these things we talked about now that'll become kind of legendary It's really where like 99% of the population really first started getting access to it, right? and so Neville is kind of unique in cannabis history in that he had the balls to start it and He sort of got to as as you know by the mid 80s Persecution in California and America in general had really kind of ramped up. It was the Reagan years Drug laws had gotten intense and so a lot of a lot of breeders and a lot of growers and a lot of guys with seed They sort of took what they had and they fled to Amsterdam Right and so Amsterdam basically got famous Because it was able to collect a lot of stuff that was going on in America and not so much stuff It was it had itself But really stuff that was going on in America They did do some trips.  I think because that had never happened before You couldn't just ask a stranger for a bunch of a bunch of illegal marijuana beans and get a hold of them back then Right and so we thought maybe it would be good to start like on a historical basis because Most of the stuff that we grow today in some way There's a lot you could trace a lot of it back to that first five or ten years in Amsterdam say like 85 to 95 right. Yeah, I think Matt would agree That the vast majority of today's modern cannabis you can at least tie some of it back to that era Most of it. Definitely. Yeah, you know and so Neville did two things, right Neville had the balls to start and Then secondly, he was kind of able to collect a bunch of people's previous work Like for instance Mel Frank Jim Ortega Seattle Greg from the NL crew Melt me, you know Sam skunk man Various groups like that and then his own travels and so he kind of became the first person To be able to blend all those things together Like before him nobody was crossing skunk in northern lights because the skunk crew and the northern lights crew didn't know each other Nobody was crossing and L5, you know with haze because those that crew didn't know each other. Yeah in a way He got lucky Because I mean like imagine today for instance You could collect nobody knew about kush. Nobody knew about cookies. Nobody knew about sour Nobody knew about all these things that are famous in America and imagine you got to be the person that blended them together first and Then sold and then resold them to people. So like that's kind of like what?  Everybody's on the shoulders of who came before So you all pick up, you know the breeding projects and the clones and the seeds as you get into weed as you come around And then you know you kind of add your own kick to it And that's what every breeder is done, you know from the beginning Um in some cases the first breeders and say like America Uh were taking all the import weed like the columbian and the panamanian and the tie and Mexican and all that and all that stuff came in Uh from seed, you know seeded weed So literally every time you bought weed you got free seeds Um and so most most breeding in America was a bunch of satelus Right because that's all there was was satelus like if you got hash Hash was afghans, but you didn't find any seeds for the most part in hash I think it's this is a really super important part too because most people that are around today Don't realize that the the influx of modern afghanis and stuff happened more in the 80s late 70s early 80s As opposed to have always been existing and always a part of the culture Yeah, it it it changed. I mean most I would say for instance that like most Most things that people were growing in the 70s was a blend of satelus Yeah, because that's what that's what everybody had access to right?   They had to go they had to collect them and they had to smuggle them back into america either mailing them or on their person somehow, right? so But there was literal tons and tons and tons of mexican and columbian and tie and panamanian and all these different Jamaican that was coming in and you know in bricks and stuff to america and it was all seated so, you know That was kind of like the And so as a result of that most american breeding was like in core groups, right? It was just little groups of people friend groups extended friend groups that type of thing you know And you know, so that's kind of how it started and it really I mean, it really wasn't until holland That most of america got access to like a what a lot of little groups of people were up to doing you know Obviously like prohibition was pretty heavy so No, you just there was no way for you to know what what seattle greg and the nl crew was doing in The pacific northwest they were trying to avoid getting busted Yeah, and they were and greg's commented several times that it was just like watching domino's fall constantly Watching their friends be popped It was sketchy and so as a result of it being sketchy and you trying to be underground, right? That meant that most people didn't have access to what you were doing because they didn't want most people to know what they were doing They had to hit it in order to be successful You know, there was there was you know, some stuff going on in mendicino county and humboldt county And you know santa cruz and the central coast area that was mountainous um And you know people were getting away with pretty good sized things and breeding and stuff But unless you were connected to those crews if you lived in nebraska if you lived in florida if you lived in You know chicago like where i was born or anything like that you had zero access to those people You had no idea whatsoever what was going on you just had you know if you were lucky you got some imports so The reason why we thought starting with neville and starting with the seed banks is because Neville was really neville was probably one of the biggest reasons why We're all here He sold Between he had when he started the seed bank You know, he sold millions of dollars worth of seed Millions of dollars Yeah, all over america All over and so what he did is he gave thousands and thousands and thousands of people the ability to grow their own And the ability to get some of the best american genetics that were happening that people didn't have access to before um, so, you know in a way um You know, he kind of took A lot of very famous weed characters and he made their stuff famous You know is really kind of what happened. He made it famous. Yeah, that's he made some rock stars You know, so I was talking about it before and if anybody was listening to like, uh, you know the first breeder syndicate interview Matt matt and kanza got to interview Seattle greg and one of the things that seattle greg said in that interview was that you know He sent a nevel a whole bunch of nl seed because he saw that advertisement that nevel put in that in high times uh, he literally You know reached out to nevel and um, you know, he sent nevel northern lights um, and You know within five or six years of that time Uh, everybody in the northern lake crew has gotten busted Um, and it would have been lost to time and nobody would have known anything about it other than some legends But he had gotten it to holland before they all got busted and lost it right so um You know There's a there's a thing when people are asking questions I haven't gotten to the questions yet because I just been kind of rapping about stuff, but There's a button where you think people can go and they can ask questions And we'll try to get some of those questions answered a little bit later after we roll through some of this shit um, and so You know, um, I'm I'm in my mid 40s. So You know, literally like I said before I knew how to get Seeds I knew how to get good weed from grateful dead shows and holland and uh, I went to holland in 1994 and uh, You know, I was able to just as an 18 year old nobody to just walk into various places and buy seed stock You know, I didn't know anything about I knew barely anything about growing weed I literally got my first seeds that I had access to Because I could buy a plane ticket and I could fly to amsterdam as a kid And I could buy seeds and I could bring them back to my spot and we could pop them and uh We could see what's up was it still super expensive for the time like You know like modern times comparatively how were the seed prices back then when you first flew over? Did you have to save forever or so the funny part about it is is that um Seed prices like when you look in those old catalogs Yes, check it out In all honesty, you know, you see a lot of stuff for 50 bucks 80 bucks 150 bucks 200 bucks ever You have to realize the way money works right now. Um Like I'll just give you guys for an example of inflation in 1994 when I turned 18 $20 back then would be worth $38 today So seed prices have stayed amazingly stable over the decade. Really? Yeah They haven't jumped because if you think about it most if you were selling seeds at what nevel was selling seeds for Most seed packs should be between two to four hundred dollars Yeah, you know, um, just just even to equate how much actual money nevel was getting for selling those seeds right and so You know, they've stayed pretty stable.   Um, because he's the guy that really took it from very few hands relatively speaking Um to crowdsourcing it if you will to use a modern term Or all of a sudden a ton of people had access to it Right and I don't think that would have happened um without Neville and some others and holland and all that so um Maybe that's sort of the uh, that's sort of the beginning You know, um And we can kind of walk it through so matt right now is holding up the first actual real seed catalog Which has a bunch of cool pictures of nevel's afghanistan trip Um, you know, he's holding a bunch of his sheesh. He's hanging out with people in the tribal regions of afghanistan and um You know, so basically when when nevel first started uh He didn't know shit of what he had Right. There it is Yeah, he really didn't he didn't know anything that he had He was just collecting stuff from people right and he was starting to blend to those things And I would say it probably took him about three years or so of fucking around um 85 84 85 86 going into 87 Before he really started to figure out like what he had and favorites of what he had and then kind of like 88 89 90 That's really when like the blend started happening that ever that got made really famous like if you look in um If you look in the book the very first book Okay, you know in the northern lights Greg and those guys sent him like northern lights labeled one through eight But he you weren't able to buy nl one from him. You couldn't buy nl two you couldn't buy nl anything you bought A random assortment of nl that he had Because he hadn't had time To like, you know, he inbred those things line by line But it took him a few years to really figure out what he had Or then grow rooms of the stuff and even see what was in there. You got to realize too that like to him These are just names that are coming in from these different growers Um, you know, we have a lot of knowledge about what these things are supposed to be, you know But he didn't have any So in the first couple years there was a bunch of there was a bunch of stuff in there. That's weird Uh in for lack of a better term, you know, there's random Nepalese by skunks, you know, columbians by this african too Yeah, you know, there there was just a bunch of stuff because he was sort of reselling Uh everything, you know everything that he had and he didn't really have uh He didn't really have a way to differentiate yet, you know, so he was just experimenting So you'll see a lot of weird things in there. Like there's a page Um, you know, he yeah, he's got some some tie by Uh by uh afghani, you know, new mexico afghani. Yes He had stuff that you'd never see again like skunk one by by nl nine. I think or nl eight He had mazar mazari that he got from his travels to afghanistan. He had nepple ease um Reuter alice it was kind of just a grab bag in the beginning of Just whatever whatever, you know, he was kind of collecting from all these different breeders, right and um so, uh you know, they um You know, and you know and and and also just to go back for a second just to give people an idea So he was collecting all that Uh, greg mc greg, uh, seattle greg sent him. I believe nl one through eight uh according to nevel um and greg and uh, you know David watson who people call sam the skunk man He had gotten in trouble a couple of times and so he Took a bunch of seed stock from himself Uh, and then some from some other breeders and he brought that to holland and he ended up selling it to uh nevel uh, he ended up selling it to uh The owner of positronics um Ornard, uh Ornard Ornard. Yes positron the owner of positronics. We're not He ended up just basically, you know, he had a couple kids or whatever. He was kind of brokeish um And he ended up going out there and he gave nevel skunk one and haze from himself And then he was friends with mel frank and mel frank had given him afghani one And durbin poison And then another breeder in the bay who we don't know his name had given Some some other afghans and stuff like that and so 85 86 nevel was basically just reselling A bunch of stuff that he was collecting a bunch of different breeders that he had gotten in touch with People who had flown out from off flown out from america to holland Or had reached out to him through his advertisement like reg did And started making connections right, uh, so that's kind of like the That's kind of the um That's kind of the beginning Really, um, so I don't know. I'm I've been talking for a while. I don't know if matt if you want to throw in Uh any comments onto that or we want to start back and forthing on some stuff But well, um, let's let's Let's start going over some of the baselines that came out of the the seed bank area Some of the baselines that we see in a lot of modern cannabis lines today All right, so maybe we'll start Maybe we'll start with uh something simple like northern mites Yeah, like I said, if you look in the 85 catalog and you look in the 86 I'm not sure maybe even the 87, but my memory fails me slightly I think you really can just buy northern lights Yeah, this one says cannabis indica northern lights in the 86 and in 87 It just says cannabis indica northern lights as well. Just says northern lights So he got it in 80. He placed that at an 84. He got the seeds sometime in 84 It's not we're not exactly sure when yeah He kept he started growing them out and he started keeping the lines separate And interbreeding them right and so if you guys listened to the podcast with greg mcallister uh, seattle greg as we like to call him and um You know, he basically said that like, you know the nl one and the nl two and the nl three Those were all pretty predominantly afghan They were rated by height and length of flowering time And then most of the other most of the other nls were those couple afghans either one or two blended with basically every sativa they could get their hands on hawaiians You know, uh columbians ties Mexicans so it was really a hodgepodge and And greg has mentioned that they were really scared to keep notes Uh, and they were really scared to like lay out exactly what they were doing So a lot of those lines are kind of lost to time in terms of what their exact makeup is Uh, because those guys didn't even want to keep track. They were just trying to find good weed, right? so Some of them is a mystery, but if you look in those first few catalogs, like I said before you can find You know skunk one by nl nl nine you can find You know five by eight if you will You can find a bunch of different things and he started reading them together and combining them You know in various in various different ways and even in the beginning, right? Like Everybody's familiar most people are familiar with what he ended up using which is one of the things that became pretty famous Which is nl five by nl two Um, but the first year he offered it. He reversed it any any and it was nl two by nl five Uh, because he hadn't really decided yet on like what?  He basically realized that um nl one bred pretty true to itself It was pretty close to what we call Steve murphy afghan Which is basically the afghani that sort of got the nl line on its way He got these afghan seeds from this guy named steve murphy Who rip wrote a couple cannabis books in the mid 70s? And this was sort of a wide leafed short squat kind of bubble like lowland afghan leafy frosty resinous short quick flowering thick dense that type of thing and then the nl two was um, you know more of a kush type it had thinner leaves One thing that people should know is like afghanistan has an enormous amount Of height variation depending on where you grow So some of the stuff like the mazars and some of the regions might only be like one or two thousand feet above sea level But then when you get up into like the hindu kush region the hindu kush region Is the second highest mountain range next to the himalayas and a bunch of those afghan farmers were growing at like 6,000 8,000 feet these big tall valleys in the middle of nowhere And so those leaves were kind of much skinnier much thinner Think about like everybody's pretty familiar probably with like the way that like what modern kush looks like And it's like that skinny three leaf Um, you know with different nugs Where like the lowland afghans were sort of like thick feathery denser looser More more leafy nugs like matt's holding up in the picture right there, right? So I think it's 89. Is it 89 the first catalog matt where all of a sudden He had figured out Which nl's really worked for him Which ones were stable which ones gave him good breeding work and I have to get all those nl's All the nl's pretty much disappeared Okay from neville's catalogs except for He offered nl one f3 He offered nl two Okay And then he found He grew up a bunch of five and since five is so famous. Maybe we'll chat about that. There's this dude. Nea Kirby who um Who took uh, steve murphy's afghan and he crossed that to a hawaiian Which he said was a columbian by mexican, right? And um You know and he gave that to greg and greg sent that seed line out as one of the one through eight We'll never neville grew a bunch of that out.  Maybe if you want to show that one nl five pick again Yeah, let me find it. So within Within the first few years He grew up a bunch. He grew up a bunch of this nl five and most of it was a chaotic mess Uh af afghani sativa blend all over the place But that picture that you guys are seeing on the left He found this one. He called it like a throwback plant, right? And he found this one plant that was almost pure afghan Super frosty super resinous didn't taste like much Super low turps But it uh, it had great structure. It had a great buzz And uh, he loved it and so I think by 88 89 90 The only thing that neville was really breeding with Was you could buy nl one You could buy nl two and he had one cut that matcha showed of the nl five Right. Yeah, you got to realize for a second that In america They didn't have neville's nl five cut They sent neville a cut of their favorite, but theirs was a hybrid theirs was that Blend it was an f1 hybrid of steve murphy afghan by columbian and mexican, right? that's right and so You know, there was there's a lot of confusion about nl five and we have this thing that we call pre pre Where a lot of people like to like to talk about how they have seeds or they have cuts like from the earliest Possible time you could have the cut But people need to people need to understand that there was always Um, there was a north american cut of nl five that was an afghani hybrid of with sativa And there was a cut that neville found amongst the seed line That is that picture right there that looks super afghan and super frosty, right?  And you've got to realize too that back then during the high prohibition times people wanted consistent producers Yeah, that's important. He used to joke That if he gave you some kind of white hot fire, but it yielded 10 less you'd be pissed Yeah, right and so most he found that like most pure afghans Didn't cross very well together They like being crossed with that was one of the he was one of the first people that really realized That when you start crossing things and start getting really neat stuff when you start crossing things that are totally unrelated to one uh, so The nl that everybody became famous with People should realize There never was an nl five line that was ever released pure That's super important as well because we see that all the time people popping up with nl five saying they have the nl five cut Or nl five seeds so You know the the nl five cut that was made famous because people were buying Millions of dollars worth of hybrids of it really That was in europe You know and you know greg has stated that by the late 80s. They had all gotten busted and lost all their shit Right and they didn't really share very much greg told us that they had shared the eight A cut of the eight a cut of the nine And the few friends they had shared the five cut But that wasn't the super afghani five cut neville shows in those pictures That was the f1 hybrid that was columbian mexican and afghan right so Everything that neville sold was an nl five hybrid He had nl five by nl two He had nl five by skunk one. He had nl five by haze Can you think of any more matt? um As far as nl five process nl five haze nl five by two that i think that i what was the other one nl five one Those are probably the three most common, right?  He liked a lot And that's the one he used so Uh, you know, you see a lot of stuff, you know, I see some comments, you know Talking about bodys stuff and all that and it's tough because I'm not here to like You know call anybody out or anything like that or obviously there's a lot of people making a lot of claims um, but You know, that's part of the issue and that's part of the reason why we wanted to do these podcasts and these talks Is because most of the history is oral Right. Uh, it's not written down very well. Um, even the people that were there Disagree exactly on what happened. Yeah, somebody right. There's some consensus, but there's also Uh, there's also some disagreement and some of these old timers. They don't like each other They just don't let out And they have beefs and they have disagree. I mean, it's not very different than today, right?  He's a fucking this and that I don't believe him at all And then there'll be other people will it will be like, well matt rye's story was consistent And this other guy's story wasn't consistent And most people aren't there right and so What we're trying to do with this is just kind of lay out some like basic facts right and uh Yeah, I mean I can actually comment on the bodie, uh, nl five thing because I was we were talking during that time a lot You know, we've been close friends for a long time and in his goal with the nl five No, he knew that nl five was never released pure as a seedline However, we were trying to find something closest that we could Find and he was like he was trying to find it and and consulting all his friends too saying Hey, where do you think the best nl five seedline would be they would show the best representation? And at the time there was like dr. Atomics northern lights, uh, which was a supposed claimant to the nl five, you know Uh lineage and then there was bcc's which was the more popular one that had had been around probably Accepted as as closer to northern lights than most that was available at the time So that's what he went with and and I I agree it was probably one of the better options at the time But as far as a pure nl five seedline when you break it down, it's that's really hard to find Because it never because the only people that had it You know and by pure let's be clear the initial nl five seedline was an unstabilized poly hybrid Yes, it was a mixture of mexican columbian and and afghani Right it was never stabilized. It was never pure. It never bred it never bred true Right, it was a full-on poly hybrid Oh, that's right squirrel mentioned the nl five skunk one. Yeah, that's correct. Yeah nl five sk I I mentioned I think neville sold nl five by two nl five by skunk one Yeah, nl five by haze um, and so but nl was always the nl was always the mother plant Yeah, I'm sure most people know this but I'll say it anyway Just in case Is that the way we talk about seeds is the mother should always come first And the father should always come second Correct. We talk about five by two. He's using the mother of nl five and a dad of nl two Right Uh, some people get it flipped around and that's hella confusing because it is important to know What's the mom and what's the dad? It really helps to have consistent terminology when you're chatting about seeds um What about the noof cut so You know, there's things where it's like I can't you know When we're talking about kind of seed history and stuff like that. This is all stuff that's going on in the 80s and the early 90s um, and then You know, these these things get legendary status And then they pop up in different generations and by different people and different seed companies in holland different seed companies in later in canada they start, uh, they start popping out and um I can answer that one actually real quick. Yeah, so, uh, there's there's somebody asking question about nl five seed from todd We know quite a bit about that Uh, the basic story is that Greg says Okay, that He found that that they found some seed From him that he didn't know existed for decades After his sister had sadly passed away Interfridge inner freezer inner freezer And he gave some of those to todd Matt got some of those as well and So those you know, it's it's hard to say, uh, you know, greg admitted that Uh, greg admitted that he lost everything for decades And then he finds some seeds in his sister in his deceased sister's, uh, fridge That were labeled And so at best you can say that the provenance of them is uncertain For sure You know, it's just uncertain. There's just no way to tell if it is nl five then it would be Steve murphy afghan by Mexican columbia Which which originally greg referred to as uh, uh, hawaiian But later on he said what the hawaiian was that was actually over there. It's a hawaiian But you know, I mean obviously hawaii doesn't have any native exactly weed So most of hawaiian was sativas from other traditional regions brought to hawaii and grown Yep, right. Yeah, and so how did bc seed company obtain nl five?  So dutch passion, you know, uh when this is jumping ahead a lot But you know within a year of shanty releasing white widow or other things There was two or three other competing seed companies in holland sewing white widow And they would just take this they would just lift the exact lineage from the people that that first sold the seed They'd buy Five or ten or twenty or however many packs of seed from that person grow them out Pick a male and a female and start making and packaging their own seed line because it was money And then they get them out, right so These things are just reworked, you know, and one thing that which we should also know Is uh Seeds have always been shady And everybody involved in seeds has always been shady and it's already always been underground And it uh, you know, it's always been somewhat persecuted And so, you know a lot of the characters to be perfectly honest lie And it's hard to tell what they lie about You know, um Yeah, I mean the provenance of our breeders only as good as What they can prove, you know, and a lot of people don't demand that proof They don't know to demand that proof or or haven't even researched To demand said yeah, well, well, I saw something we'll get to some questions here and just we'll go through like a little question and answer session um You know shortly here or whatever and we're not we won't get through it all today But I just kind of like you guys can see I mean I haven't even gotten I haven't even talked yet about the most famous hybrid of all time, which is nl5 haze Uh, but there's a lot of depth to these stories on how these people got started Um, and you know, and then other people should also know that like You know, um, some of these later seed companies Uh, a lot of these people work for nothing Right. Yeah Adam who was part of starting thc seeds Tony who was first at cerebral and then made his own sag martha seeds Simon who was also at cerebral and then made serious seeds Uh, they all were who? Right all of them and then within a year of leaving working for nevel or leaving working for Sensi under nevel to be more accurate.  Yeah, it's never been You know, but maybe I should take a step back I'll talk for a few more minutes and then we can answer some questions and then we can get that But the other part that's cool is that one of the things that nevel did that other people didn't Is that he actually went to america on some Steve and clone hunts And uh, there's a dude who is written most people probably know exactly who this is Uh, he's one of the people through his books that taught me how to grow weed. There's this dude named Jorge Cervantes and uh Neville met up with Jorge Cervantes on one of his trips back into america and Jorge got had new breeders Maybe breeders is the wrong word. They knew growers at the very least They knew growers in the pacific northwest region And Jorge hooked him up with the g13 cut And what what became known as the pacific northwest hash plant That's right And so Certain people gave nevel a bunch of seed lines But then there was things like the pacific northwest hash plant the g13 You know stuff like that that ended up just being straight cuts that he purchased and You know Yeah, george wasn't somebody he used to go by a different pen name um back in the day But uh, yeah, he he hooked up nevel With those two cuts and really all we know Is that nevel paid 500 dollars for the g13 cut and it came out of order And he I don't know how much he paid for the pacific northwest hash plant Um, but he paid for that and he sent both those things back as cuts right So, um, you know, he kind of collected over the first five or six years. He was in business Through some travels uh to afghanistan from meeting up with american breeders Uh to going to go into america and buying cuts and seed lines We haven't talked about that but there was this Uh very mysterious character named jim ortega That gave him Seed lines that became super famous the garlic bud the hawaiian indica the The maple leaf indica And uh The kush four You know and those end up a number of those ended up in a bunch of nevel projects um, so nevel kind of like Nevel kind of like was able to in that five year period, you know Or six year period really 84 to 90 He was constantly Collecting stuff from breeders collecting stuff from people blending it together Releasing stuff playing around with stuff and seeing what the hell it was It's kind of how it got started in a sense Uh, you want to add any of that shit matt? Um, actually, I this this is harkening back to people are asking about the bcc company and their sourcing I actually found something in reference to just that real quickly This is the doctor at tonic one. So it's going to be the hemp bcc bank. I believe and they don't really give an exact Anything on how they sourced it, but it does say This state of the art indica has a result over 20 years of selected in breeding. They pretty much took nevels Uh description the buds have extremely frosted then they actually sold an nl five hawaiian indica nl five haze one Hawaiian haze But again, it didn't see anything about the sourcing of their nl five and they couldn't have possibly been around for it So That's a lot to digest and it kind of gives you like a super general overview of like what What nevel was up to and you know, some of the people he was collecting from and some of the things that he got Um, maybe we'll pause for a second and we'll hop over to the votes Uh, yeah, people are and we'll answer some questions Here i'll read them off to you so you don't have to read them. No, I got them in front of me. It's pretty easy Uh, this app that I downloaded works pretty well awesome The first question that got a bunch of votes is uh getting csi on here Um, csi is I could probably safely say He's a good friend of both mine and matt's Um, we both uh chat with him fairly often You know, he uh, we're all good friends It's certainly possible that we could convince him to come on one of these in the future um He's not quite He's not quite as talkative as matt and I am and he's a little Uh, but he has done it in the past and it is entirely possible that we could get him to do it He's a wealth of knowledge People call him inspector for a reason Uh, he's got a really curious mind He pokes and pokes and pokes and tries to figure out knowledge kind of like The rest of us everything I just said Um that I rambled on about for forever Uh, that's it's the result literally of years of talking to people Uh years of researching years of you know, uh, matt got to talk to nevel quite a bit in oh nine Uh 10 12 years ago Um or so got a bunch of emails and various kinds of communication Uh, there was a couple of year period on Uh, mr. Nice forums, which is shanti baba's site where nevel was actively posting and answering a bunch of people's questions There's friends of his that have contributed There's enemies of his that have their own various stories and stuff and so All this stuff is not easy to find it's not in any one location it's all sort of a conglomeration of uh You know, it's a lot of a lot of work And you know, I'll see if I see if I It crashed people and uh He puts a lot a lot of he cares about history. He cares about um Knowledge, uh, he cares about the oral history I can't say when but we can try to get uh homie on here And see if he wants to chat about various things The next question is we have like I said before we have no idea who passed the pacific northwest hash plant to nevel Do you know that? Jorge arranged Yeah, that's right. Jorge did arrange that that exchange for the pnw hash plant, right? He did We get the hash plant you play on the tander to your team Um, so it's not public knowledge who gave it to him. We just know it came out of the organ washington state area Uh, there was growers that that or hey knew that he was able to hook up with nevel and nevel bought them from them um, so Their names are not known to my knowledge uh, whoever they were and The mawai cut that I have So the third that question and the next question what seeds that I buy in 94 Did I find anything decent and the mawai cut are both related? So I was dumb and I was 18 And in retrospect I went there and I bought a ton of seed But sadly I only bought one or two packs of like 15 different things.  I bought stuff from sensi Uh, I bought some stuff from um I'm trying to think now, uh, the the easiest way to put it is I didn't find anything that was worthwhile on that trip except for I was at the gray area coffee shop And I was smoking a joint and we were young and this old timer was sitting down next to us And I mean old timer in the sense. He probably looks something like me right now He was probably in his mid 40s a little little gray, whatever and uh We were smoking and we were young and we were all 18. I was there with some friends of mine We were like all 18 to 20 or whatever and we were all hippies dead head this mission to buy Seeds and smuggle them back so we could grow.  I had a two lighter Uh at the time so really major major player and uh I was sitting down next to him This this old guy smoking weed and we were telling him our story And he told me that he was from Hawaii And he'd lived there since the mid 70s And every few years he came out and traded seeds with some of these guys in holland And brought them back and tried them in hawaii on Maui And it wasn't a very long conversation. We drank a cappuccino. I didn't ask him that many questions We smoked a couple joints together in a little hash or whatever And then at the end of it he was like well I'm super stoked you kids are out here trying to find some weed And he's like, why don't you take why don't you try a little bit of what I do? And he put a handful of seeds in my Um, and one of those became the Maui cut Uh, I stupidly didn't make any seeds Uh that era I wasn't even attempting to breed yet. I was just trying to find a good female to fill my two lighter So, uh, I didn't ask him any intelligent questions About it. And so I called the Maui Because that's the island it came from and that's the only thing I know about it So it's gorgeous though. Yeah, so really, uh, the first time I went to Amsterdam I went to Amsterdam probably two or three times between 94 And oh three probably two or three times a year. I went to like three cannabis cups in that time Um, and I would go mostly I would go in summer But I would go I'd try to go a couple times a year and buy different seeds talk to breeders talk to various people Learn as much as I could you got to realize back then there was no forums Everything was just in books Information was pretty hard to come by Um, you know information was rudimentary really, uh, the the way the information flows now I wish that I could have listened to somebody like this to shoot the shit about weed But it was pretty hard to come across so, um The only thing I found on my 94 trip that I kept was a gift Everything I bought was I don't want to say it was bunk Uh, but my 18 my 18 year old knowledge. I didn't keep any of it So, um, I still have that cut. It's still grown in mendicino county by others It's a great outdoor plant. It has a bunch of might be in some popular strains that are around nowadays Yes, it is definitely in some popular strains um and all that and uh You know, so yeah, I got um The first the first trip the only thing I found that was useful was a gift From a man. I don't even know his name. I smoked a couple joints with him I probably spent a total of 20 minutes with him drank a cappuccino got a handful of seeds in my palm smogled it back called it the Maui and uh, that cut is 27 years old this year That's so wild So it's uh, it's certainly my longest held cut. I've had it my entire adult life Uh, it uh, paid a lot of bills I brought it with me when I moved from Chicago to mendicino county in 1998 I spread it out a little bit there. Um, and it's uh It's been in a number of different things Um, I bred with it quite a bit Um, you know, I gave some hybrids that I had made Of super dog, which is another story that we've talked about before but super dog by Maui I gave a bunch of that to Mandelbrot Mandelbrot, uh found a fino in that that he called the truth Uh, and then he bred with it and some of his own lines and stuff and so Um, she exists in various she still exists pure with me and some friends But she also exists in some other people's work Um, she might exist in some pretty famous things at this particular time Um, but that's kind of how cannabis is, you know, so Um, why don't we've been talking about it's right about an hour. Um, I got an idea I was going to do a giveaway tonight. I think probably since we're touching on the PNW hash plant I'll give away some of the seeds to the person who asked the question that got the most upvote So whoever billy is send me a uh an instagram message Some of the PNW hash plant cross to move on it Um, so there's a couple more questions I could answer for sure um And uh, we'll uh, I can chat a few things so Our friend, uh, flanville. He said what's my personal favorite clone or line to come from nevel's work You know The line is easy Uh, I I personally think the most famous Uh hybrid ever made and the most successful cannabis hybrid that's ever been sold Is north slice five by haze um, I think it's, uh Yeah, I don't think there's another there's another line that's more famous Um, if you're looking at, um At the catalogs right there right out there on top in the 1990 catalog That's that picture of nl five haze Do we know which one it was eight? It's a two. It's a five A five two a five two. Yep. There it is.  So it's super old um, and Look at all that leaf resin.  He crossed it with g 13 And you had g 13 haze. He crossed it with nl five That became and the nl five Uh, I actually don't think there's another line as well as me thinking that it's the most famous and well-known line I don't think there's another line that has as many named elites that still exist is that line Yeah, it'd be hard. You'd be hard pressed to find one There's probably four to six at least famous named cuts in europe that are nl five haze The piff the heights haze the cuban black haze the dog shit the church All those are all nl five haze, you know, and they all come from 88 to 95 Here's another picture from senty so um, it is Uh It's probably the most It's probably the most famous line that anyone has ever made And there's literally eight to ten to twelve cuts of it That are all have different names. They're all elites. Uh, they're all still hoarded Uh and exist on both in europe and in america. So I think it's by far The most famous cannabis hybrid ever made um Since he's had this beautiful one Yeah, that's super skunk since he sees today is sadly probably bunk Um, yeah, neville worked for them. That's a whole story in itself But neville worked for them after he got busted and got they bailed him out of jail And they gave him a great deal of if we bail you out of jail. You have to sell us your company so He's spent like he he's spent a good chunk of time in jail and they bailed him out and Stency seeds ended up absorbing Uh, the seed bank from neville and the hired neville as their top breeder So neville went from owning the biggest most successful seed company To having the dba after him spending about eight or nine months in jail And then having to go from being an owner to being the head breeder for different people And uh, that's another story, but they ended up renaming a bunch of his stuff And so since he for the first five years in the 90s for the most part That was where neville resided and made most of his beans And probably from 95 to 2000 They still had the vast majority of the original Lines that they were working with Seed laws changed in 99 and 2000 In holland and most of the original breeders got raided and busted Ben and alan dronkers are Um, judge businessmen for lack of a better term They will never admit that they lost a single plant from the originals You can't get a word out of them that anything is different than, uh, it's ever been Um, but most likely they lost a bunch of stuff and if i'm correct I think they farmed out most of their work to spain They haven't made The traditional versions of their seeds and in the the timeline I always go by is roughly 2005 2006 is gonna be the last time you want to buy Stuff from the majority of the dutch seed banks because by then nirvana Fucking all all of them greenhouse, uh, sincey. They were all farming out to buddha seeds and eventually to limota so basically, yeah, um Then see sadly since he had about a 10 to 15 year run Of having a lot of legitimate stuff I do think that there could be some things in sense that are still real We you have no idea what to know what and we do know um that they lost Quite a few mother plants and breeding plants over the years, but they'll never admit that so sadly No longer what they were in the 90s, which was an excellent place to get a bunch of beans um I will say uh seeds if if people want to see what original haze is like seedsman still Has original haze that they sell. I believe uh, it's all it's all purchased from watson if i'm correct but if you know people Talk about you know, I might have a cutting of original haze and stuff. It's still around. It's still around in seed form um You know, so yeah, there's I don't know there's We could talk endlessly. Um Uh There's a couple things on here that are they're easy to talk about Somebody said did skunk va head dog use your headband cut? Uh, yes and no I have two headband cuts One of them we call the la. He does not have that one, but there's another headband cut that's extremely nice that both him and I cc Both have and Mr. Bob hem pill and some other people have it's much more of a kush based headband And that's the headband that that he uses It's a great cut super potent very flavor That's the one that I use as well from elite cannabis Yeah, and then um Let's see You mentioned the nl5 seed line was composed of afghani columbian and mexican. What makes this different than skunk one Um, that's a good point skunk one is afghani mexican and columbian There's totally different types of parents totally different lines Yeah, I mean it's it's like saying somebody's italian irish and chinese, you know, it's not the same parents It's just the same region of origin Certainly samskunk man was not using the nl cruise afghans in his lines Um, and it's very unlikely that the mexican or the columbians are related But it just goes to show how Different blends, you know from different parents can read the very different things Yeah vastly different vastly different You know, um, let's see somebody asked about I don't know.   I still couldn't remember some of that stuff So I'm just learning um So Uh, what's get what's what do you know, which uh cut of headband Caleb's using? Let me let me ask this. There was a guy that was talking about where can one find real old school strains and genetics Why are all these pollen chuckers with watered-down herm genetics and trash gear getting the most attention? All right, so there's a couple comments on that Uh for one thing And this is common. This isn't just for weed, but You know, some people are really good at marketing Right, uh For lack of a better term, you know, yeah You know, there's a lot a lot of breeders Um, let's all throw it out there again, right? So if we get csi on here In my opinion, csi is one of the absolute best breeders that's alive today in working Hands down I think he the amount of breeding he does The amount that he shows his own work the amount that he constantly cracks entire rooms of seed that he has made and shows people What's in the seed lines themselves? Almost nobody does that. Yeah Almost nobody shows as much Of his own work In pictures and you can just watch him grow after grow after grow after grow after grow after grow on ig for years just posting tons and tons of pics of You know, most breeders don't test their own work At this particular time It's very rare testing your own work is time consuming The best way to make money as a breeder is to make the cross Give it a killer name make some amazing patch packaging And then be like masonic or something like that and like pump pump pump pump on ig and try to get a bunch of hype going Um and growing it out and testing it takes time money energy space Power bills, you know all this different stuff and so um No, but the reason why I mentioned csi is because he is absolutely terrible at promoting himself He is a phenomenal breed That doesn't really self promote the way other You know, and so you got to separate marketing from talent, right? The other thing I should say about that is that when people talk about herm genetics People act like herms are a bad thing, right? And so and they're not You know, I said this on the live when matt and I were chatting before Anybody that thinks that herms are bad is tripping Yeah, right herms are inconvenient In today's marketplace Obviously having seeds and stuff like that isn't the greatest So, you know, uh, herms are just a genetic trait that enable a plant to create seed In the event that something weird happens and they don't get pollinated in order to continue the species Right from a breeding perspective Um, they're quite convenient to the marijuana plant From a seedless perspective where we're trying to grow cinnamalia or whatever, you know However, you want to call it seedless. They're inconvenient Um, but but the marijuana plant did not develop with the idea that it was going to be seedless to it Seedless is a failure. Yeah, right a straight failure. Okay. So, you know, it's trying to just like all other life It's trying to reproduce and survive right and You know, just to be clear too There is a lot of the best cannabis out there that's bag seed Okay, straight bag seed. It's really humbling as a breeder that some of the best On the planet is accidents It sure is the chem dog came from a bag of weed bought at a dead show Without seeds in that bag of weed. We don't have chem dog Sour was a multi-term accident Okay, the super skunk that everybody's hunting after and everybody wants and everybody's claiming to have rks And there's rks coming out of the woodwork and everybody wants to claim like they got skunk skunk skunk That plant Hermed like a mofa It hermed like crazy But because it hermed like crazy if it didn't herm, there would be no sour diesel right There would be sour diesel is is from accidental harms Right the reason why people have kush the reason why kush came to la is because in florida Somebody's room hermed and they sold seeded weed and people found that seeded weed and they grew up some seed And they got what we know is kush sour diesel cookies Okay, uh chem dog.   Obviously herms are inconvenient And breeders can do the best they can to reduce Her hermaphrodism traits, but there's I mean that can speak to this There's populations like tie and other things where herms are like prevalent Yeah, I mean It really depends on which line you're running in it And it vastly depends on the room that the the parents were acclimated in that made the seeds if if you're if you're popping Seeds from a grower that only predominantly make seeds indoors and you want to run them all outdoors Probably not the best idea, you know, it's it's acclimation Climate all that goes into it, but intersex traits are here Right against them for ever since people have been breeding cannabis for since miller, right? But they're still here and this they're not going anywhere. It's a part of the the genome And you know man, there's there's a Uh, there's a lot of there's a lot of questions. I'll try to answer a couple more before we Before we leave the last question is Caleb using the other headband cut Caleb is csi and Csi has both of my headband cuts Like I said, he's a real good friend of mine. I trust him with my whole library. He can have anything he wants from me. Basically Um, I love his breeding work Uh, you know, nobody put the Mendo perps, which I got lucky enough to crack Nobody put more genetics out there of the Mendo perps and made it a permanent part of the gene pool more than csi Um, so he has both of my headband cuts um, my la cut is a Sort of a diesel type. Um, it's much more of a blend You know, uh, the other one is much more of a kush varietal. They're both super potent They're both in my kind of top five or 10 cuts that I possess Um, so he has both he hasn't had them forever But he has started using them in various work and you can buy some of that work as we speak um Mr. Nice, I'll ignore that one just because it's a super long subject um, but the the short version is that After neville left sent see he started working with shanti baba um, and they made They bred together for a while and the result of that breeding was super silver haze mango haze neville's haze some other things and neville was hurting for money and uh, he sold shanti Uh for a good chunk of loot Quarter of a million dollars or something um, most of his seed collection from the seed bank era Uh in the 80s unreleased stuff various lines and things like that So mr.  Some people think he's got all the white hot fire The truth is probably somewhere in between I'm sure he has some of neville's old work. I'm sure he has a bunch of neville's old seed It's hard to say exactly um What he currently has and well, but he doesn't but his provenance in being able to access it I don't think is in dispute. Would you agree with that matt? Oh, yeah for sure. I mean neville neville I mean at the very end it's not talked about a lot, but He felt like shonky bubble might owe him some more money Even though it wasn't in the agreement because he had done so well with neville's line So neville obviously felt that his lines were being used correctly and making tons of money with them There's another thing about australian bastard cannabis That's csi. I'll just say that real quick. I don't know that much about it You know csi is a true breeder He's really interested in freaks. He's really interested in genetic uh oddities And if nothing else abc is extremely odd In the way that it leaves form and stuff like that and you know a lot of stuff Right now is really bottlenecked people use the same 30 40 50 cuts over and over and over again and so at the very least When you buy abc work You're getting something that is genetically unique so far And he's certainly widening the gene pool of available cannabis Yeah, by making it by making it available to the public Um, it is probably one of the first lines in a long time. That's totally unique from what came before Uh, and it's valuable just for that And it's an ongoing project that he's putting a bunch of time into and i'm sure over the next three or four or five years We'll see a bunch more work from it Matt can comment on this too, but he's really just been getting started with his own work on it Yeah, yeah I see so many people get so mad every time he posts pictures of people actually genuinely Yet hurt fillings when they see this plant. They're like, oh my god.  You know It's it's surprising to me because a lot of them claim to be breeders or or our seed makers and have companies But they don't see the genetic novelty in bringing in something completely new that hasn't really touched cannabis You know as far as modeling lines Yeah, I mean, there's there's a lot of um, there's a lot of uh There's a lot like I said, there's a lot of sameness. I'll say this quickly too The way the breeding has gone the last 20 years as soon as something becomes famous Everybody crosses it to everything else Yeah, so the amount of shit right now that has cookie in it cushion it sour diesel in it skittles in it Um, you know, you name it in it It stuff gets bread and bread and bread and bread and bread to death um, so to take say cookies And to cross it with uh, abc Is crossing it to a vastly different gene pool than anybody else is using And so who knows what might come of that? That's that's why you don't know Who knows in a few years where that might lead that might lead to unique highs That might open up the gene pool and make things pop out. You're not expecting Genetics or and so people get on him about it because it's so weird Um, but he's really just in the infancy of playing around with it, but you've seen that he is Um, you know, he's been posting a bunch of pictures this last week of some of his work with the abc um And I don't know we probably how long we've been talking Yeah, we've been talking we're at about hour and a half hour and a half So, I don't know. I mean maybe You know, I don't know you guys could like this is probably odd because I've been talking 98% of the time for an hour and a half It felt good. I can hear it in my throat Um, but we kind of wanted to just do this thing and maybe we'll do it like, you know, semi-offen or whatever Uh, we had this thought of kind of going through the seed banks and it's such a big subject Um, we really only touched on a little bit of the history We didn't really touch on haze or skunk or durbin or Anything from jim mortega very much, but those can be for future things so Um, I don't know, you know, I don't know if this is where we want to leave it matt. Yeah. Yeah, this is perfect, dude So maybe this is perfect, but you know, if that's the case I hope everybody enjoyed it Uh, you know, I don't want to make it a forever thing. Um, but we could do this pretty often Um, and certainly look through the question and maybe maybe if your question doesn't get answered Don't despair. Maybe it'll give us an idea for a topic that we'll talk about on the next one So just if we didn't get to your question or you didn't see it happen Doesn't mean it won't happen You could always ask it again Or who knows you might even hear us talking about it on the next one because it was a good question And it just didn't pop up on the flow of things and there's also the patreon You can go to breeder syndicate patreon where me and not to always shoot the shit with a bunch of people that are A part of it you can ask questions all the time and whenever we have time we go in there and pick at them and and try to break it down That's really true too. Um the uh, it's it's on discord And uh, we have a we have a server there You know and yeah, you can you can directly message me on there I generally answer sometimes it takes me a minute because you know I do do things and get busy or whatever, but Matt and I are both pretty active on there and we do bullshit a bunch and it's a lot easier to ask away and get responses So feel free to join that um And really what all matt and I are trying to do at this point is just get Chunks of history and chunks of knowledge out there to the larger public Uh, this is kind of our this weed life. This is what we like to do is what we like to talk about You know and pontificate on or whatever. So I hope everybody enjoyed it Uh and learned a couple things and I hope it continues and all that so Yeah, I think that's it. I think we should cut it and we'll go from there Yeah, sounds good. Thank you everyone for showing up whoever billy is who asked that question They got the most up votes send me a message and I'll send you some uh, p and w hash plant, uh, blue bond if it's unrelated Thanks so much not so good


just don't get it right so he says sexy what's his name how can I be have an hour so I'm basically doing the thing because of the group I'm waking up out me it'll be excluded what fun did I don't get excluded it's on my