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As the world marks youth's day, more youths are taking to cybercrime and gambling to escape exclusion. And as about 299 Nigerian students remain in the den of bandits, the federal government expresses concern. This is Plus Politics. I am Mary-Anna Holm. As Nigeria joins the rest of the world to observe the International Youth Day, an increasing number of Nigerian youths continue to face economic uncertainty, forcing the majority of them into crimes. And while the number of youths entering into the labour market yearly increases, the economy's job-creating capacity is on the decline. Economists have suggested. Now, this is coming a day after Nigeria was ranked 161st out of 181 countries on the 2020 Global Youth Development Index, which measures the status of young people between the ages of 15 and 29 around the world. In 2016, it ranked 141. We're joining us to discuss this is Kunli Lawal, he's the Executive Director, Electoral College, Nigeria, and Shagum Odwala, he's the Co-convener Youth Democratic Party of Nigeria. Thank you very much for joining us, gentlemen. It's a pleasure to be here. All right. Thank you, Shagum, for joining us. Thank you very much. Great. So I'm going to start with the fact that one in every six unemployed youths globally are Nigerians, unfortunately. And we have recorded in the past year the highest number, or the highest percentage of unemployment and underemployment, you know, since about 2017 and we're in 2021. I'll start with you, Kunli. What is exactly responsible for the level of unemployment and underemployment that we're facing in Nigeria? Well, trying to be honest, we must understand that our leaders in Nigeria kind of look at employment from a position in which they think that employment will be derived if they do not think outside the box. Being honest, Nigeria has 5.4% of the world's entire natural resources. And being the most popular black nation, we also have human resource. I think we've concentrated a little bit more on our resources and agriculture, which are things that we could derive, but not on the youth exactly. So now my point being, we spend less than 10% of our entire budget on education. We spend less than 15 on health. And whether you like it or not, Nigeria also runs banks that do not allow below 10% percentage on loans. And this is a big problem because you have a large youth population. You can't provide employment. You don't think outside the box. Like for me, I'd ask a question, why isn't Nigeria the hub? Or why aren't we the call center for Apple, Twitter, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Toyota, which are driven most in Africa and bought most by Nigerians? That is a big problem.  When we have bigger federal allocation, we might be able to do more. But that's not the point. By looking at states that think that they are not advantaged. For example, Abia, they would say Nigeria is not advantaged to them because they are concentrating on federal allocation. But what if Abia decides to build a telephone call center for the entire Africa, for Toyota or for BMW? And say we put this number of staff available, we can do this presently, and you should use our services. And they can apply and push the federal government and say, if Toyota does not agree to this, Toyota's would probably have a higher excise duty than normal cars because they've turned it down. But that is thinking outside the box. Well, the members of the National Assembly agree to this. I mean, most of the cars do drive following that category. Yeah, but I wouldn't say the National Assembly would agree. That comes down to the question. As much as our politicians tend to think that the youth are not for any other purpose than the office which they've granted us, of course our ballot box running, which is an official up-occupation in Nigeria, which is sad to say. But I would like to say that if we thought outside the box, I think Nigeria could be the most prosperous nation in the world. Shagu, let me come to you. We talk about the fact that we have a teaming youth population and this should be a plus, not necessarily a minus for us, although it seems to be more of a minus for us in Nigeria. But how employable are these young people? Because we're asking for more job opportunities, but I mean, I've had complaints from people, employers who say these people don't want to work. These people, what they wrote in the SCV is not what they cannot give, what they promise in the SCV or in the applications. And this is not detail for everybody, but I'm asking generally, how employable are Nigerian youths? Universities are churning out numbers every single year and we have these people in the job market, even though they had no jobs. So is it a problem of employability or what exactly? Well, thank you very much. I'm going to say that first of all, we have a very huge number of graduates who are youths in Nigeria and if they are graduates, that means they have gone through the educational system and they have been certified in their area of career. And if now in the job market, the employers feel they cannot discharge duties or responsibilities that are attached to them or that is expected of them, then I think we should look at the educational system that has certified them to be qualified enough to seek for such jobs. So I'm going to say that we need to look into the educational system. If the products they are churning out on a yearly basis, if they are not quality, then we need to look into it and say that what is going on here? Why are you having graduates who are not competent enough to take or keep a job? Why are you churning out graduates who are not competent enough to discharge duties attached or assigned to them? So I think the problem is the educational system. Also, I think the youths are not inspired enough because ordinarily the youth will want to do something that gives them joy, something that gives them happiness, something that engages him, something that gives him fulfillment. But if you have such a youth... I'm sorry Shagun, can you hear me? It does not necessarily have anything to do with what you study in the university. Most people are lucky to study and come out with certificates in areas that they're excited about. And there are also a lot of us who studied one thing and then we discovered that this is the thing that we love to do and if you wake us up at 2am in the morning, we're able to do it. So can we still blame that on education?  Well, I think the entire educational system should encourage people to take a career in their area of interest. It is very important.  And one other thing is that when people are getting admission into school, they are left with options. The schools give them options. Maybe they are applying to become a business manager and then the school is telling them that the only option they have is to become probably a banker to give them a course of banking and finance to study banking and finance. Such a person now is compared to work in the bank. I don't think the schools give you the option. The option is what you score at the end of your UTME examination. So if you were targeting to get 350 or 400 to study, let's say, medicine and you're unable to get that target and then you have maybe 300. Now 300 only gets you medical lab sciences. It's not the school giving you options. Those are the options available due to the certificate or whatever scores you got after UTME.  No, it's not. You need a certain amount of scores or credit to get whatever course you want to study. So again, it boils down to how ready we are for those courses. Well, as for me, like I said, I think the problem is getting people to get a job in their area of interest. There is a system that grooms people, that looks into a child, looks at the area of interest for that child. What does the child likes to do? And then we groom that child to become a professional in that field. But in Nigeria, it is not the same. For example, a child who loves to sing is being forced to go and study law in school. And out of that, maybe he managed to perform excellently in school when he gets out of school and gets into the job market when you are such a person to go and represent in court, maybe represent a client or something. And then you find out that they are not acting out their best because that is not what gives them joy. So the first thing we need to look at is encouraging people to take a profession in their area of interest, something they like to do, something that gives them satisfaction. Let me come back to you, Kunit, like I asked him. What life skills do we possess? I know that if you school abroad, you have summer classes. Sometimes you have an opportunity to be an intern, to volunteer. You could work if it is a campaign season, depending on the course of your study, you are sent to work on a campaign. There are opportunities and it is part of your curriculum. But do we have that in Nigeria? Because when you graduate, they start asking for a certain years of experience and you just only graduated and you haven't been able to get any experience because you spent six years in university studying a four-year course and you add to the strikes in the middle. But then you graduate and they are asking you what skills you possess and you don't have any. This goes back to what I was talking about when I said we spent less than 10% of our budget on education and that is a serious problem because what we are churning out is not quality enough to suit a 200 million population. With a 200 million population, we are asking for a lot more. But if we are not putting a lot more into what we are asking for, we will never get the exact level of which we have asked for. Can we pay because you know education gradually has become very expensive, not just in Nigeria but all over the world. Even when you decide to go to school abroad, it is very expensive. Can we subsidize if you are an indigent of that particular area? I would like to back to the phone. I would use an example from Nigeria and medicine. In Nigeria entirely, whether private or public, Nigeria is one of the cheapest places in the world to read medicine. There is a thirst for Nigerian doctors all over the world. You want to know why? Our inadequacy with equipment makes our doctors the most proficient with diagnostic medicine, meaning the average Nigerian doctor can look at you and tell. Now, this is not supposed to be a plus, but it is because there are so many inadequacies in our system that our doctors are trained to work without the additives. So when you say it is cheap to study medicine here, who wants to study medicine cheap when they do not have the necessary equipment? Wouldn't you rather spend more money where you can see? For example, I studied in a university where I studied the communication costs where I never saw what a sound lab looked like because we didn't have any. But that built you to work. When you eventually are put in a sound lab, you can work more efficiently. How do you work if you don't know the equipment that are in the sound lab and how do you work? At this point, I'm not justifying the inadequacies. What I'm trying to show is that the inadequacies have also showed a plus on the world scale. And that is true. There's a demand for Nigerian talent, be it in any field, any profession. I just used medicine because there's a big demand on nurses and doctors from Nigeria because of COVID situation in Saudi Arabia, in Britain, in Canada, in America. And this is because of their diagnostic tendencies. But I'm not also saying that the inadequacies are perfect. I'm just saying that because of the inadequacies, they seem to be perfect in a stable environment. So how do we get life skills? The truth is the quality of our education is below minimum. It's absmall if you're going to explain. But why are employers asking for those skills, those experiences? I mean, they're part of the system, obviously. They know what happens. I think this stems from the problem that we train people in Nigeria to, for example, work for big conglomerates and not to build big conglomerates. That's one of the biggest problems in our system. And that has transcended into something that we don't think outside the box. We just want to get a job in Canada, get a job in Saudi Arabia, get a job in Qatar. And we just move out and do it like that. But the truth is, have we looked at our system? I always see something. Within the chaos that we call Nigeria, there is more opportunity in chaos and there is in the perfect system. And this is me just thinking outside the box. I'm just not trying to say what everybody says, ah, Nigeria is useless. Yes, it is. But you must also understand that within chaos there is the most opportunity. And this is changing the exact narrative that we spent so much time talking about. I'll give an example. Like you said, you didn't have a studio lab. Today you work for one of the biggest television stations in Nigeria. How does it feel? You're well trained, I've heard you speak. I was trained on the job, trust me. I was trained on the job, but I had nothing to do with my class. I took my classmates, I was already working when I was in uni. I took my classmates to a radio studio and a TV studio. So they had to come on a caution to understand what a studio looks like, a sound lab looks like. Because I already knew that. So I was more advantaged than them in class. But this proves your metal. And which also buttresses what I'm saying. But there are so many of us out there who do not know or have that. Let's also remember that Nigeria is the most popular black nation. We must always remember that. Yes, our governance systems don't remember that. Our leaders also don't remember that. But being honest, we must direct our thoughts. I'm not just trying to say we're any black hole totally. So yes, we're any black hole as we look at it.  In 2021, we're still trying and hoping that we could. Anyway, let me come back to you, Shagun. Let's talk about the issue that was stated in the report on the Guardian newspaper today about the fact that a lot of young people have turned to advanced free fraud, cyber crime, gambling and even drugs. There seems to be a lot of pressure to either belong or to be successful or to be part of, for the ones of a better word, the 30 billion gang. When do you think that all of this came from? Is it a systemic problem in society where everybody feels the need to want to belong? What's responsible for the money craze? The fact that people are into gambling and cyber crime, they obviously are trying to meet a particular standard, aren't they? Yes, you're right. They are trying to meet a particular standard. But the main problem is that for every human, especially youths, they need a sense of purpose. So it is either you give it to them or they cover the purpose for themselves. Now, I am going to call it a systemic error because the government has refused to give the youth a sense of purpose, something that will engage them, keep them busy positively. But at least they have been sidelined, they have been renegaded to the bottom and they have been made to feel like they have led you or nothing to contribute to the society. So therefore they look out for themselves and whether the approach they are taking is within the ambit of the law or in legal, they don't care because naturally they seem to be repressed. So I believe that if we give them a positive purpose and give them a sense of direction, the youths are going to go in that line and they are going to bring out the best. So whose responsibility is it? I'm sorry, whose responsibility is it to give these young people a sense of direction? I'm hoping that you wouldn't say government because government can't do everything for us. Where is the role of the home? Where is the whole role of society? Who are the mentors and the idols that these people are supposed to look to to give them a sense of direction? Please don't say government. I know you don't want to say government but the truth of the matter is that it is the government when the government creates an institution or a system that directly engages the youths. Maybe for example, there is a youth. So you're telling me, I'm sorry Sheryl, you're telling me that families, that parents, that guardians, that people who are the ones that are responsible for bringing up these young people should totally justice in that responsibility for the government. And so government now is responsible for appointing your children in the right direction and telling them what to do. What do you as a parent do? What is your responsibility then? What I'm telling you is this, the parents embrace their kids. They have sent them to school. The educational system takes it from where they are in school to teach them, to get them to have the best education they can have in that educational system. But when they leave school and come back to the job market, when they go out there to seek for jobs, they need something that gives them a sense of purpose. Something that gives them a sense of purpose of contributing positively to the society or to themselves. I'm not sure if this sits well with you. I'm not sure this sits well with you. I'm going to ask the same question again. If I'm not unable to get a job, if I'm unable to fit into the job market and maybe for one reason or the other, life is not going the way I planned it. Where does my values as Mary Ann kick in? Or should I wait for the government to instill that value? I'm trying to understand what she means here by the government pointing them in the right direction. You know one thing I've never tried to do throughout my time in politics in the government is to blame everything on the government. I might be in opposition, not be in agreement with a lot of things but we cannot disassociate the society from what we have presently. So you talked about advanced free fraud and the situations we see right now. I'll be honest, if the society did not tolerate corruption, the only corruption within politicians, if society did not tolerate the money that advanced free fraud brings and the harsh kittens that were raising across Nigeria, it also would not be tenable. But guess what? It does. Nobody cares how you made your money. Nobody cares how anything happened. While I was growing up, okay, I'm above 35, I wouldn't push myself as youth, but while I was growing up, kids were raised by the entire community and not just one person. I'll tell you- But times have changed?  The rest of the 60% is left to school and the educational system. I don't know why government is being called into this. So the choice of- I'm trying to get somewhere. The choice of choosing the life of crime or shock courts because, again, I'm not in any way trying to absolve the government of its responsibility for creating enabling environments and giving us what we need as a people, the choice of becoming a fraudster, a gambler, those are personal choices. Is it government that pushes you to make those choices? No, of course, government cannot, but we cannot also negate the fact that the environment tolerates it, which is why that happened. Now, I'll tell you something. If I came from your part of the country and I told you, okay, maybe I want to run for office in 2023. If I wasn't driving a Range Rover or a G-Class, may you tell me, Kune, you're not serious. Especially if I came to your house trekking to ask about votes, you'll be like, ah, Kune, you want to run for Senate. You're not ready. Oh, where's your car? Where are your bodyguards? Where are your assistants? I probably won't say that. No, no, I'm not. I would know that you're not going to steal. In this case, when I say you, I'm not referring directly to you. I'm referring to the average Nigerian on the street. And I've run for office before, you know what I'm saying when I tell you this.   You're not serious. So are you going to blame government for that? I don't think you should. Let's be honest. Government is made up of the society. If the society has watered down itself to the fact that it can be bought by currency, then it means that Nigeria is just generally a buffet table in which people just take their turns at the buffet and nothing else. Now, talking about how to get out of where we are, because the issue of having, you know, these problems of advanced free fraud, people getting into gambling, where do other young people who have been able to make it because statistics also show that a few Nigerians have been self-motivated. They've tried their best to not look at the situation around them and they've built something else of nothing and we've seen a lot of that in the tech industry. We've seen that in our music. We've seen that in Hollywood. We've seen it in even the guys who are in the creatives. You know, we've seen that. But what are these people also doing in their little way? I mean, it's not their responsibility, but of course the youths have to, you know, support each other. Is there some, do you see, Shegong, a group of young people lending a helping hand of sorts or being the kind of idols that young people need to see and counselling, because like I said, the group of young people you see today, including the women, are most interested in the money that you have, the cars that you drive. Everybody's just very fixated on making money. But then the process is involved in getting to where you get to and become a rich or a successful person. It's totally out of the picture and people never really get a hold of that idea. So they just, what they see, a David O, or they see a two-faced or they see whoever and they just see there now, they do not ask them what process they went through to get to where they are. So what are the young people like yourself doing to mentor these other people, even if they're not too young to mentor, but what are you doing to encourage them that there is a process that they need to follow and not the shortcuts? I think Cheyenne is frozen, so we'll just walk with you. Okay, I'd like to say something out of this juncture. The way we look at things is based on our perspective and our perspective is based on our culture. And if our culture has become one that takes and takes and takes and nobody gives back, we will all become part of that issue. So you're saying that that's where we are right now? Yes, that's where we are right now. So our system is an entirely take, take, take. Nobody wants to give back. I'll tell you... But really, why should they give back if they... For some people, I'm just asking, I'm playing devil's advocate. If I have built myself solely, the government did not help me, I have literally built my own small empire and I've gotten to where I've gotten to. Why should I give a care in the world? Now, that is the problem. So because you went through a hard struggle to get to where you are, it means everybody else should go through a hard struggle. Why don't you make it easier for others? And that's the question we really need to ask ourselves. Because when we look at everything, we say, no, it could be... I went through a hard time. Ah, you can't get a job in Nigeria. I suffered to build my company, so everybody must suffer to work for my company. Really, what ideology is that? What invented that? You're supposed to get somewhere out of the norm. I believe in opportunity and chaos. As much as Nigeria is chaotic, if you're able to break yourself out of a lot of things, I'll tell you, even within my position presently, I mentor a lot of people that are going to aspire into politics, not because they offer me anything. I'm not paid one Naira to mentor any one of them, but because I have gone down the path and I've become who I've become, not rich. And I'll tell you a problem we have in Nigeria. Why do we judge success by the amount of money in the bank? Success is not just a judge like that. But we've seen that play out every day. Let's take, for example, Obikubana's mother's burial. It was the rave of the whole week, if not two weeks, and everybody wanted to be him. Everybody thought he was the most googled person. And why? Because money was involved. So we've become so money-oriented. I'm wondering why. Let me tell you what I did. When I saw the Obikubana spending, I saw a few Abuja boys out. I did something and I did a check on OB as a place. It doesn't have a primary health care centre. Yes, it's not directly his problem. But the amount of money that was thrown by Obikubana was enough to build a health care centre. But he's not the government. The government taxpayers in those areas are entitled to good governance. Obikubana, I do not remember running for office in that state or in that local government area. I really think we need to divorce ourselves from the point. So if we all keep helping government to do its job, let me explain why you need to help government to do its job. Now, as much as I dislike the governance we have in Nigeria, I need to say this, nobody has to go through the path you went through. It could be easier for others. And the point I'm trying to bring out is, I think, and this is not from a perspective in which I'm being spiritual or anything, but I think when you get somewhere, you should make it easier for others. And this might sound funny. Yeah, it might sound funny, but let me tell you something. Obikubana is going to have a child on the air. That child is going to want to go to Obikubana in the same place and do what his father did. But let me tell you, if you continue at this rate, when he throws money like that, a bill of money in the air, his child is going to get shot and everybody's going to pack the amount of money on the floor. Is that what you want to happen? Well, let me come to you, Sheryl, quickly, because we're out of time. Let's talk about the political space for young people in Nigeria. Now, certain analysts have said that the chances for young people to get into the Nigerian political space, especially for the big political parties, is pretty slim. And they said that this is because the space is being tailored in a way that only a few who are financially buoyant can actually make some of those spaces. So I'm wondering why that is and what we can do. I mean, we screamed about the not-too-young-to-run bill and then finally, Mr. President signed it. But here we are. Young people are still getting the shot end of the stick. So when will we be the real future of Nigeria? Oh, once again, I think that Sheryl's connection is bad. So let's wrap things up here.  And I'm wondering, why is the space shrinking? I work with people that are way younger too. Yeah, but why is the space continuously shrinking as opposed to making space for young people to come on in? Because we've seen the same leaders from what... I mean, since 1983 till now, I've seen the same leaders in uniform, outside of uniform. And yet young people have just very tiny opportunities amidst all of that. I'd love to answer this question diplomatically. But with what I know, I'm going to answer it practically. And the problem with young people is, okay, I'll give an example. Maybe someone in Big Brother is going to go out of the house and young people love the person. They'll be like, okay, let's come together and donate the money that they're supposed to win at that particular program to the person. Have they tried that for someone that actually would have delivered governance to them? They've not done that. And these people raise a huge amount of money. So it begs the question, yeah, we might have lost faith in government. That can happen. And that's why we have national assembly that can impeach the president, ETC, ETC, ETC. But there's a big problem when we've lost the love for country. And that is where everything lies. That's where every problem emanates from. Well, there's no better way to have wrap this up, but I would say thank you. Unfortunately, Shaggle, your connection has been pretty bad and we were unable to hear everything you had to say. But Shaggle, Kunle, thank you very much for being part of the conversation. My pleasure. We will take a short break. And when we return, we'll be discussing how the kidnapped students are faring in custody and across the way of our productions and how it's affecting education in Nigeria. Stay with us.