Live from the Moscone Center in San Francisco, California. It's The Cube at AWS Summit 2015. Live here in San Francisco, I got a little periscope action going here on my phone here at Amazon. Web Services Periscope is a new Twitter app. I'm John Furrier with SiliconANGLE. It's The Cube. Mark Farley, my co-host. Hey, now. Noam Shindar, the Chief Operating Officer of Zadara Software. We're live, we're periscoping. And we got The Cube with The Cube team here. Welcome to The Cube. Good to see you again. Thank you. Good to see you too. Tell us about your company, what's going on. I'll see you guys are doing some great stuff right now. You came into our Palo Alto office to talk. What's going on here at Amazon Web Services and what's the tech angle? It's deep tech here. It's not a big marketing show. It's all about technology. What's going on? Yeah, we love this show because people are here to buy. So they have real problems that need to be solved and if we can solve their problem, they buy. And if we can't, they move on to the next vendor. That's a good show. I love that. No kicking tires, getting business done. And what we do is high-end storage services for Amazon customers. And we do this both at Amazon in multiple regions and we do it on-premises too, which makes us unique because it means hybrid services from Amazon or to Amazon. We do this with file services. We do this with block services. And we do it using the same business model as Amazon. Buy the hour, elastic up and down. And yet it's on dedicated hardware. That's the magic sauce. Dedicated hardware on demand. Yeah, so that's real interesting, right? I was looking at your website and seeing on-premises as a service. Yes. It has a headscratcher for me, right? I mean, it's an interesting play on words, but how does that work? You're charging by the hour or for hardware. That's right. Really? Yes. And this is a business model that works. Can you please explain? Yes, it works wonderfully. So start with what we do. What we do is we instantiate storage clouds in many locations around the world, and we manage them from a very small number of locations, which means we're very efficient at building storage clouds. We can not just run them, but run them efficiently and run them with extremely high reliability anywhere in the world, which one day led to the realization that we don't have to do this only in public clouds. We can do this in private ones as well, just like we can bring up our 33rd public location. We can bring up a 33rd private location. And the other thing to understand is that this is designed to be very, very cost-effective, which means we're able to deliver this to you with not a lot of cost to us in terms of hardware, because we run on top of commodity hardware. So you, as the customer, get with no upfront fees, so for zero, for free, you get storage on your premises, and we charge you for your actual usage of that using that hourly model. And the reason that works is twofold. One is it's very attractive and people grow their usage over time. And the other is we do ask for a six-month commitment, which really is to keep our logistics under control. No, that's reasonable, right?  You really do want some amount of commitment there. The management model for this sounds really interesting, right? So it sounds like you have some sort of centralized management of these. But customers want to do that, too. Do you share management responsibility, or how does that work? Yeah, we do. We share it, and we share it roughly along the line of low-value, annoying, menial activities. Those go to us. And high-value activities go to the customer. So in other words, the responsibility for firmware upgrades. We actually don't have firmware at software, but the equivalent with the traditional providers, like the person who was sitting in the seat before, they have firmware, so we do the equivalent. We do software upgrades. We're responsible for those. We do them transparently to the customer. We do tell them that it's happening, but there's nothing that they need to do. Things like that. Responsibility for hardware replacement.  It's up to us to send new drives to replace them once it failed. Those are the low-value, annoying, menial activities. That's on us. So do you have a dual-controller architecture then? We have a self-healing dual-controller per virtual array architecture. So it means two things. On the per array, it means that, unlike the traditional storage architectures, you can spawn as many virtual arrays as you need, and they can be as so small as to be a single application array each. So you can have as many of those as you need, and in terms of the controllers, it's two, but it's self-healing because they're virtual. So should a controller fail, for any reason hardware or software related, we'll simply spawn a new second controller. So you always go back to two. Interesting, so it runs on Intel hardware, and you just bring up a new virtual machine, which is your controller. So when you do firmware upgrades, then are you just killing one of the old controller machines and instantiating a new one? Yes, and we're doing a failover. So we're doing an HA failover from version minus one to version zero, from version zero to version plus one. It's that simple. That also allows us to do other neat things. First, it tells you that we can be heterogeneous. We don't have to have the same version running in the entire cloud. We can actually mix and match versions. But also means we can grow and shrink the controllers.  That's slick, that's really slick. So Nelson, now Nelson's the CEO. He is, yes, co-founder, CEO. Did he invent this? Yes. Yeah, he's a very clever guy. Yes, the day that he told me about this is the day that I knew I want to work for this company. Oh, so did you work for the company before or after you found out about this? I'm the first employee to join the company who's not a founder. Ah, okay. That's like being a founder though. When you're in a real stage company, there's the founders who have the idea and then there's the sub-founders who come in, with the founders, who are the first high, basically technically first-highers. So that's, you know, to me, it's all entrepreneurship. When you hit like 15 employees, that's kind of wave two. When you're in the sub-15 number, it's all craziness. Exactly, exactly. I mean, mop on the floors together, you're doing all kinds of odd jobs, you know. It's total craziness, you're trying to get some traction, you're working hard. So I got to ask you, so Amazon talked today about recycling compute and all this stuff, this agile-like, when we talked in Palo Alto, you were talking a little bit about this usage model. Can you expand on that? Is it the same as what they're offering? Because you have a unique economic value proposition. So one, share that with the audience, then compare that with what Amazon offers. So you'll have to bring me up because I actually didn't sit in the keynote, too much business happening. I'll just tell you about yours, and I'll bring up my notes. To the earlier point, too much business happening on the show floor. How many deals did you close? I think that we, just in that time of the keynote, I think two new customers. Fantastic. Yeah, just in one keynote. How much revenue you guys are doing? We can't disclose revenue, but we're in the millions. Okay, so I had to ask, sometimes it comes out, just cubed, just falls out on the cube. Trust me, I am dying to tell you. You're smiling, you got a spring to your step. Yes, absolutely. This is good, so what is it about your offering that aligns well, your closing deals, what is it about your product that's winning, why are you winning? So at AWS, we're winning because we're providing storage that is solving the problems of the most demanding customers. If you think of the pyramid of customers, Amazon does a fantastic job of covering the wide base of the pyramid and up to a certain level, but there's the tip of the pyramid that have very specific, very difficult needs, and we solve them. It could be unavailability, it could be on features, it could be on replication to on-premises. So that's one reason people choose us, another reason people choose us is support, 24 by seven support is included in our product. So the enterprises we use us don't like to read the manual or have to search for help. No one reads the manual, RTFM, everyone knows what that means. Guys that use Microsoft read the manual, they have to. So we're there with them along the way. Anytime they need us, we help them. In fact, we insist on speaking with them when we begin, just to make sure that we can cover some important things with them. Here's the problem I have with storage right now. I have way too much capacity and I'm paying for stuff I haven't used. What are you guys doing in that area? With us, whether it's on-prem or in Amazon, you never pay for capacity you don't use, because it's elastic by the hour. So there's no reason to ever over-provision because you can just add it. In fact, we have a feature called Hotspair, which is you can have an extra drive that swaps in in case of drive dies. None of our customers use it. We have exactly zero customers that use Hotspair. We're not losing any revenue, it's a free feature. Why do customers not use Hotspair?  That's one minute of clicking around and it's done. So why pay for a drive you're not using if you can just under a minute swap in a new drive? So John, to your point, with us there's never a reason to over-provision because more capacity is at your fingertips any time you need it. And by the way, should you reduce your usage, you can give capacity back and stop paying for it. We have a customer who just did that. He said, my CIO told me I have to reduce my overall IT spend. Can you guys help us? He said, of course. Just delete some things, consolidate onto a smaller capacity and then give us back the capacity you're not using. And we'll resell that capacity to somebody else. So that's obviously cloud capacity, it's not on-prem. Right, but on-prem, we charge, on-prem, same story, we can't recycle the capacity. It's hard to recycle out there, yeah. We can recycle it at the node level. A node is about 200 terabytes. So if somebody on-prem stops using a node, we could potentially, we own the node. So we can take it back and deploy it at another customer. But as far, but that doesn't affect the customer. Customer only pays for what they're using. So the same hourly business bottle that we have at Amazon and the same price that we have at Amazon is also what happens on-prem.  So EBS is now advocating basically SSD. Yes. You're on-premises nodes, how do you allow somebody to mix and match between SSD and spinning rust? We provide any option the customer wants from all flash array to all magnetic or anywhere in between. The customer chooses the mix, unlike everybody else, they can change the mix. So one of our mottoes, if you will, is you can't make a mistake. Because every choice you make with us is reversible. So you bought too much flash, no problem. Give the flash back and get some magnetic drives. Not enough flash, no problem. Get some flash. By the way, we use flash two ways. You can use flash's capacity. So for example, an all-flash array. And or you could use flash as a cache. So standard included in the price with every magnetic VPSI, virtual private storage array, is an SSD read-write cache. And you get, depending on the size of your controller, that determines how much flash cache you get. And then you always have the ability to expand that flash cache at the push of a button non-disruptible. So if your data set grew and no longer fits in cache, no problem. Two clicks and you're done. So I'm curious how functionality like replication works. You can replicate from one site to another site. Customers like to do that, but I think customers are also looking at being able to replicate from on-premises to the cloud with the idea of doing recovery in the cloud. Is that something that you folks offer too? Oh, absolutely. It's one of our killer features and almost unique. So probably the only other company that provides the same storage on-prem and in the cloud. Because it's a virtual controller. Exactly. So you're running a virtual controller in an EC2 instance? Actually, we don't. We put our, remember, it's dedicated hardware on-demand. So if we run an EC2, it becomes shared, not dedicated. So we place physical infrastructure next to Amazon, but using an Amazon business model. So you get the best of dedicated hardware in the sense that you're not sharing, but also the best of cloud because the business model is cloud. It's completely on-demand. So on-prem to the cloud is we will deliver storage to your on-prem and we already have the storage at Amazon and Azure and other service providers. And you can replicate in either direction. It's the same storage exactly. You don't have two products. We're a single product company deploying the storage many different places and ways. And you're able to replicate not just from one location to another, but also one to many. And you have very nifty features. For example, you can do a failover for disaster recovery, but also fail back. What a lot of vendors miss is the customer doesn't want to stay in DR mode. The customer wants to revert back to the original as soon as possible. But we make it really easy to do that fail back because our system will recognize when the mirror broke and then we'll sync only the data from the point the mirror broke in on back to the primary site. So tell me about the vision you guys have and compare that to you heard from NetApp. They're an incumbent, but they're renovated with Amazon. You got EMC transforming. They're a big aircraft carrier. They're moving in a direction. You've done a great job over there.  You got HP Storage, which we'll get the update HP Discover. You were previously there, so you should try to give some commentary on that. IBM, they have a storage group. In fact, the April Fool's Day joke was... Yes, that was funny. It was a piece. Dave Vellante felt funny. Dave Vellante. I know people. I know people. You know people buying their assets. Actually, people believed it. So that's how interesting that market is. You have a massive shift happening. At the same time, Amazon's pointing at an inflection point. So two major forces going on in the market. Technical change, business economics, that all the theaters are exploding in disruption and innovation. What's wrong with people out there on the old side that aren't moving fast enough? What are they doing wrong? And what are the guys on the old side doing right to get into the new side of the street, if you will? The business model is wrong. It's everybody who's saying that they're doing cloud storage but isn't providing it as a service business model with consumption pricing. And I'm not talking about the so-called flex leases. I'm talking about true consumption pricing. By the hour, if I shrink, I pay less. If I grow, I pay more. So what everybody else is doing wrong, are they do the capex model or long-term leases or these flex leases that have a big base capacity and the ability only to grow past the base capacity? Customer wants the ability to shrink. Bad stuff happens. We've all lived through down cycles. So you're saying the line in the sand between the two sides of the streets, old school, no school, is consumption. Yeah, consumption price. Is there anything else you'd add in there? Elasticity? Well, consumption pricing and elasticity are together. If you're inelastic, then you're not, you don't have consumption pricing. Because consumption pricing paying from, exactly, it's built in. What about something like warranty? Do you have warranty in consumption pricing or does warranty just fly out the window? So this is why we call ourselves, and it's a great question, we call it sort of enterprise storage as a service. What's wrapped into as a service is consumption pricing and an SLA, better than a warranty. The warranty just means if something breaks, we'll replace it. Break fix, right. We say the thing will keep on running optimally or you don't pay us. So not only will we fix it, we actually won't have hiccups. We won't have downtime. That's our promise. So think of warranty as this good and an SLA being this good. Assuming that the SLA has real promises in it. You can tell, if you're examining an SLA, just look at the penalties. What happens if you don't live up to the SLA? And that's- Yeah, that shifts the responsibility for whatever you're running on from the consumer to the vendor. We have some of the biggest companies on the planet putting out our FPs saying we need a lot of storage. We don't want to deal with it. We need what it does. We don't want the headaches that come along with it. So we'll announce relevant deals as our customers let us make them public. But think about traditional manufacturers, bricks and mortar, very, very conservative, saying we will not buy any more storage. Yeah, so one of the big drivers of the storage industry for decades has been the fact that the equipment all becomes obsolete three and a half, four years, right? It goes off maintenance. And once it goes off maintenance, it's too expensive to pay the maintenance for it. If they're not paying maintenance, it's a whole different world. And if you're using SSDs, it's a whole different world. Right, and so because of our architecture, we can swap the underlying hardware non-disruptively. So the era of migrations is over as far as we're concerned. The customer can keep running and because we're the service provider, even on premises, we can completely refresh the hardware non-disruptively to the customer. And a magical thing happens when we do that. The price goes down. So one day you pay this much for storage. The next day, the price goes down. You didn't have to ask for it. You didn't have to scream and shout about it. It just happens. So why is all of this happening? I want that to happen every day. So this, well, Amazon is forcing the world this way because Amazon doesn't go down when they change the software, Amazon doesn't go down when they change the hardware and the prices go down of their own volition, right? So the customers are starting to say to their traditional providers, this is the experience I get at Amazon. Why can't I have this on premises? And the vendors hammer and haul and say, oh, it's revenue recognition, it's my model and I can't change it. Well, the cost per terabyte or whatever is always decreasing, right? So if you buy new capacity, you're getting it cheaper than you bought it three years ago or last year or whatever. Yeah, but what I'm talking about, my old capacity goes down in cost. How's that? Hey, Nova, I got to ask you a final question here. Okay, we've got good data on what you guys are up to, how it relates to the trends here. What outside of storage is impacting your business? We heard from Amazon here about the container service, little Docker actions to application agility. You've got Lambda for mobile. They're putting everything in the stack. Storage, obviously the Bakken object. What outside of storage is putting pressure on your innovation strategy? It's customers looking at services broadly. So when we started, it was a point interaction. I have this one thing. You don't mean professional services, right? Sorry? As a service, yeah. So X as a service, everything as a service. Is the, so our customer interactions are shifting from point problems. They have this project, this application. Can we help with that? Okay, thank you very much, Don, we're happy. To, we're re-architecting everything to be agile, flexible, elastic. Can Zadara be at the heart of that? So it's forcing us to also think at that level as far as how do we integrate with compute? How do we integrate with different cloud platforms in terms of automation, orchestration, containers? All of those things are now entering through the conversation. Whereas before, we, you know, we were- Well because they're software based and their application workload driven. So you're saying the applications are dictating to the network and infrastructure, versus the other way around. Yeah, storage forever will be a necessary evil. And I'm okay with that. But nobody wants storage. I have an application and it has data and that data has to sit somewhere. But I don't like storage. I don't, you know, I need it, but I'd rather not do it. Kind of making me tear up. Yeah. Yeah. But- He's a storage guy. He writes books about it. Me too. He loves storage. It's not storage to him. But this is, I have- Storage is sexy now. Come on. Yeah, again, I've seen the headlines. It's still bits in a bucket, right? So yes, we make it easy and we make it fun. But at the end of the day, it's driving an application. The application is what the customer cares about. And the storage has to enable application and keep it running optimally. So we always think about what's the customer doing at the end of the day and how can we support that? Noam Shendara, who's the chief operating office of Zadara Storage. Cutting deals and closing business at Amazon. Congratulations of your success. And, you know, again, the line in the sand has pretty much been laid down. Insumption, I mean, being elastic is inherent in that model. Congratulations. And the world's changing in storage. It's certainly infrastructure. It's theCUBE.  This is theCUBE. We'll be right back.


Hi everyone, this is Gio. Welcome to my channel. Now what we're going to do in this video is do a little bit of prep work for another video that we're going to do, which is sort of related to ASMR mathematics, personal finance and investing. And we need a graph to be able to analyze some data. So what we're going to do in this video is create a graph on the wall here behind us. That way, in the next video that we do, we can actually put our points on the graph and analyze the data and talk about what the data represents when it comes to personal finance and investing and stuff like this. And just so you know the technique that we're going to use to be able to create this grid, because we want this grid to be square, that way the data is not distorted or anything. We want it to be the axes to be perpendicular to each other. We're going to use the same technique that we used when we created a grid to do the 10x10 math puzzle. We created a grid on the wall and we generated the 10x10 multiplication table, which is something very important that everyone needs to know. That's the first thing when it comes to learning mathematics. You've got to learn your 10x10 multiplication table because it makes life easier for you. And since we have the table up, what we ended up doing is play the 10x10 math puzzle pattern recognition game. So to set up the grid, what we ended up doing, we used the Pythagorean special right triangles. I forget what the terminology is for, but basically we used the Pythagorean theorem to generate a square grid. And that's something we also did during the live streams as well, I guess last year or so. What we ended up doing, we generated a table again and we had like two or three or four or five live streams of solving the puzzle game. And that was a lot of fun and I believe we got to 99. I think we might have also got to 100. I'm not 100% sure, but we will definitely be doing that again. But for now, what we're going to do is create a table, not a table and grid and graph. So what we're going to do is we're going to generate a graph so we can use it to analyze some data. And what I've done is we got us painter's tape again. And I got two different sizes. We're going to use the thicker size to set up the axes of the grid, the outside of the graph. And then we're going to use the thinner one to go across because we sort of want a grid inside the graph so we can read off the data accurately well enough. And what we're going to do is, as before, we're going to use our Pythagorean theorem to do this. And I sort of kept the strings we created when we did the live stream, when we put up our grid. So we're going to use one of these strings to give us our Y axes first. And we are definitely going to measure it. But what I'm going to do, because we've already gone through the process of how you set up the grid Pythagorean theorem using the Pythagorean theorem on a flat ground. That's the technique we use. What we'll do for this one, because we've got gravity working with us, I'm going to use gravity to make sure we're vertical on this grid. And to do that, all you need to do is basically anchor your string somewhere and have some kind of weight hanging on it. That way gravity just makes it go down straight up. So what I'm going to do is, I'm just going to use a set of keys as my weight. And what I'm going to do is just tie this in there. And we don't need it to be. You've got to make sure it's not touching the ground. So I'm just doing this. So we need it to be about, we're just going to fill the screen. So we need to be there. And I'm going to give it a little bit of extra length. And I'm just going to tie it up. So we have the weight weighing down on the string. And we'll make sure that our Y axes vertical, right? Hopefully I didn't say horizontal before vertical, because we wanted to be vertical. And what I'm going to do is, I got little tacks here. I'm just going to put this in. I already have a little, little knot on this thing, right? So just going to put this guy in. And this is, I'm not sure if you can see this. I got little pencil marks on the wall here from the previous grid we, we set up when we did the puzzle. Okay. And I think some of these might be permanent. They might have gone through the painter's tape because I put them on the painter's tape. So let's do this. We're going to put this, this should give us enough room. So with the axes there, you know what? Let me move it over a little bit more.  So we're just going to put a little bit over more. Okay. Now for the Pythagorean triangles, I'm going to go down 60 centimeters this way and 80 centimeters this way. Okay. So that should be a 3, 4, 5 triangle. So diagonally, I'll have to go one meter and that'll guarantee that we're going to have a square grid, right? So let's do this. We're going to bring, where's the thick one? Here's the thick one, right? We're going to use a thick one as the axes. So I want to put this up here. We'll put the tape in and then do the measurements afterwards. I'm going to look at the exact one I fear we'll cut off the extras, right? That way we've got the grid and make sure that the grid, the grid, the graph, will be in the screen that you're seeing, right? That you're watching right now. So let's lay this here. Let's take it all the way up. And of course, I could just use the weight on the tape. That's just hanging straight as well, right? But because I'm going to move it, I want to make sure that this isn't going to be stopped emotion on this thing. So that looks pretty good. Let's cut this. Now what we're going to do is we've got to go 80 centimeters this way. 80 centimeters. Where's my other? Oh, there it is. These are this guy, right? So 60 centimeters we're going to put on here. But first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to go 80 centimeters to make sure we're going to be pretty much within the reason of this thing. Is that good? Yeah, that's pretty good. And then from here, so this guy, so 60 centimeters. Let's make sure we got the screen. So that's 60 that would go here. So is that legit? Yeah, that's legit. Okay, cool. So we're going to go. Okay, cool. So we already have, if you see this, let me show you this. On the tape, I already had little felt marks put on there, not on the tape, on the string from our previous session, right? Every 10 centimeters. So this is perfect. It's going to be right there. We're going to go across, right? So let me do this. Do we have another loop tied on here? Oh, we do have another loop tied on here. Sweet. Okay, so what we're going to do is I'm going to, I'm using a little tax right now. I got the big tax here as well. I like these guys. I'm using the little guys right now. We got the big guys as well. We might use the big guys. After we set up the graph, we'll put the big guys on there too and the little guys to see which one comes out better. So that way when we do the graph tomorrow, we'll have a good presentation. We're not experimenting tomorrow. So let me put this guy here. That guy is going to go right here. Okay. And what we're going to do is we're going to go this way. Now I can take this off, right? I just put one loop around it. It just pulled us off and it's done. Easy peasy. So what we want to do, because this is the tape measure I was using before, I know the marks are 10 centimeters. So I'm going to go eight this way and one meter that way. And that should do it for us, right? So let's come over. We'll use a tack. We'll put a tack on there. Okay, just to mark it first. So let's see. Are we still on the map? Let's bring this up. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80. Okay. And where are we? 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, one. So that should be square. Hopefully. Does that look square?  Because, because, let's see. If I put it there, let's check it out. Does that look horizontal? No, it really looks horizontal here. Oh, did I miss a mark? Oh, hold on. I want to go from, is this my bad? Where are we at? We want to be a 60, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60. Ah, that's why. I didn't start off off here. I was going to measure it from here, my bad. So the angle that we could see corrected my mistake, right? So we're going to put the marker here, the little thing, right? So let's see. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60. We want to be here, right? So let me take this off and put that guy here. Almost made a mistake, right? It's always good to check. And that's the beauty of the system. As I mentioned previously, in the previous videos you did, almost every geophysicist used this technique to set up a grid. And I used this technique to set up a grid like for 10 years, for a decade.  Because you want to get a good start right off the bat. Okay. So let's check it out. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, and 80. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 90. Oops, where are we at? This is the one, so should be there. Yeah, that should be it. Let's check it out. 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 10. So this guy says it should go right here. Let's put it in. So we got our tick mark. We do a double check after we put the tack in there and that's it. So I'm not going to take these guys off yet. I'm going to set up the tape first and then we'll make sure that it's all set up properly. Let's see. So we're going from here. What should we do this? There's the tick. Let's take it extra a little bit and then we'll put the markers on. I'm going to come a little bit extra. Should I come a little bit extra? I'm just going to come a little bit extra just in case we want little markers on that. Let's take the string, put it on this side and let's take this and put it over top. We don't need this guy no more. Actually, we do need it. My bad. No, no, no, we don't because the measurements are going to be a little bit different. To put the data, let me put these guys away. To make sure that the data that we're going to graph right now, they have the same sort of tick marks going across. We're not going to divide this up every 10 centimeters or so. We're going to divide it up differently because I wanted it to fit here and I'm going to base it on the two graphs that we have here. So they have the same tick marks, same intervals even though the numbers on the bottom is going to be time. The time is going to be different between each tick. The interval between the ticks is going to be the same and this is going to be dollars, right? Money, US dollars, then US versus Canadian dollars and stuff like that. And the tick marks are going to be the same length even though what they represent is going to be different, right? Hopefully that came out okay. A little random. So let's put that on there. So we're going to go from here. Let's bring the exact knife. I'm going to cut it from there. And we're going to take it down. Take this down for now. Okay. So that's the top of our graph across. That's the top of our graph. And we're going to put another horizontal here as well. So might as well do that or another vertical line there as well because I want the grid to be on both sides. I'm going to put a different scale on this side and a different scale on the other side. Okay. So let's do this. Actually, let's kill this as well. Should we go a little bit more? Actually, we'll put this up and then we'll do the same thing and then clean up the graph afterwards. Okay. So I'm just going to do this. I'm going to light it up. Just use gravity on the tape. Okay. Just take this off. I want this to be on here. That should be vertical. Yeah, that looks pretty good. So we need that to be 60 centimeters as well, right? So let's put a little tick right in the middle. See if we can find the original hole. Maybe. And bring out our exacto knife. So we're going to go 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60. Let's save the little tapes. We might need them. And take this off. Bring the knife. We don't need the bottom. We know the bottom is going to be flush. So we just take that down. Save this guy. And we know the bottom is going to be flush, so we take this down. Now, what we need to do is put our tick marks this way and this way, vertically and horizontally. And what I'm going to do, I printed off the graphs so we know sort of, you know, how many tick marks we need, right? So basically this is going to be a number here. And I need one, two, three, four, five, six, seven marks here. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven. If it was six, it'd be fantastic. We put one every 10 centimeters, but it's seven. So what we need to do is bring out a little calculator and we're going to divide 60 centimeters by seven. 60 divided by seven. And that's 8.6 centimeters per tick. So that's what I'm going to put on here right now. I'm going to bring out our tape measure, right? 8.6. So what I'm going to do, just to make sure that this is, we get the accurate numbers here. Let me do this. 60 divided by seven equals 8.6, right? So that's what 8.6 here. And we're going to do it from the center, right? So, sorry, 8.6 centimeters, right? Not inches. What would it be here? I'll read off what the inches is going to be. 8.6 inches would be about 3.8 of an inch, right? But we're just going to continue using centimeters, right? So it's going to be 8.6. So I'm going to put a little tick here, approximately anyway. If we want, we could go 8.5, double it. 8.5 doubled. Let's make sure we're in the right place. 8.5 doubled is going to be 17, right? 10, 17. Okay. And just to make sure we're doing this right, all I'm going to do is going to go 8, oops, 8.5 plus 8.5 is 17 plus 8.5 is 25.5, right? So I've got the tick mark there, 17, 25.5, right? We'll do another 8.5 plus, plus 8.5 is 34, right? So we're going to go here and do 34, 34, and then we'll just do it with a calculator just to make sure we don't have any brain farts happening, right? Plus 8.5, 42.5. The next one's 42.5. Hey, wait a second. 32.5, 42.5. That's the reason I do this. 42.5, right? And then plus 8.5, plus 8.5, 51, right? So that was 42.5. And then 51, 51 plus 8.5 is 59.5. We're just going to do 60, right? Okay. We're at the top there. We've got to do the same thing on the other side, okay? Because we're going to do the grids going across, right? So we had 8.5, 17, 25.5, 34, and then 42.5, and then 51, and then 60 up top, right? So we can put our horizontal grids in there right now. We're going to use a thinner tape. Hopefully it comes out better, but not better, but you can see the distinction difference between the thick tape and the thin tape, right? This is as thin as they went. So and one level thicker than this was a little bit too thick for what we wanted to do, right? So this is what we're going to do. And we're going to go a little bit extra on either side, and then we're going to trim it down and make it look nice, right? So we're going here. And the last one we're just going to put on the top, right? Just do a little bit more. Doesn't make it to make sure. Within reason doesn't make a difference. We'll go halfway through in the middle, right? Now what we need is the vertical grid, right? And the vertical grid, what do we need? We need one, two, three, four, five vertical grid lines, right? So five and we went 80 centimeters, right? So we're going to go 80 divided by five. So we need one every 16 centimeters, which is pretty straightforward, which is really sweet, actually. 16 centimeters. So let's just put this across. 16 centimeters, right? So 16, make sure we're good. 16, 32, 32, 48, 32, 48. Stay up there. 48. At 16, it's 48. Let's make sure we're doing it nicely. Okay, 16, 32, 48, 50, 64. And that should be 16-ish. That's 16-ish. Cool. So we've got that set up. And all we have to do now is, this is a thinner one. This is a thinner one. Just use gravity. So I'm going to put the marker here and then trim it down, clean it up afterwards. So we're going to go a little bit over and then go flush, right? So right there, good stand. And one thing you can do is, here, like I don't want to place this like this because friction might hold it. So you'll bring it out a little bit, right? And then just let it already bolted out a little bit, so drop slowly, right? That should be 16. Should be straight enough anyway. Comes out okay, vertical, vertical. Yeah, looks good. One more. We just have to clean it up a little bit. So let's clean it up with our, where's our exacto knife? Let me put our exacto knife. There's our exacto knife. And what I can do is just use this guy to clean it up, right? So I just want a little bit of extra here because we're going to put the labels here, right? So we're going to use stickies to put on labels. So for example, one of the ones, oh, I didn't bring a felt marker, but I'll show it to you guys in the next stream, right? So basically what we're going to do is just put a marker there with whatever the reading is, right? Whatever represents, okay? So let me take this off. So we need about this much. Oh, that's good enough. So we're going to take this and just give a little bit of space. And what we can do is just use the lever or the level and make sure the bubble is centered on these. And this should be good to go, right? And just use the exacto knife and trim it down a little, pull these out. I didn't do the bottom one because it didn't reach all the way through. So we'll make sure that this is, oh, I should have cut it tighter. Hopefully I pressed hard enough for the bubble. Looks good. That looks good. And this one I haven't done yet. So let's just make sure we do it nicely. We've come this far. Let's do this. And we're going to make the bottom and the top flush. So that's easy done. One day we'll do this and I'll bring out some paint and put a permanent grid on here so we can play the 10 by 10 puzzling time we want, right? Just that one made up my mind where it's going to go yet. Cool. And we just got to do the other side. I'm going to try to make sure they're the same amount, right? So it's about three centimeters. Three centimeters. A little bit over an inch. A little bit over an inch between one inch and three centimeters if you've got a tape measure that measures both, right? Cool. So that's going to be about here. Let's do it. Let's put a little mark here so we know and then we level it up. Now everything's the same. Everything's symmetrical, right? So we've got our grid set up. Now we can put a graph on here, right? And one more thing before we finish off this video. I do want to get a visual of what these things are going to look like and, you know, I wouldn't got some supplies for us to create the lines. So I'd like to test it out right now just to see how it comes out. And it's not, it's not important for us to be accurate where the data is, but I do want to get a feel for how it looks. So what we're going to do, I've got different color tags here. I don't want to use the big ones because, well, maybe we'll use the big ones. Let's check it out. Those are pretty good actually. Maybe we'll use the big ones. So let's see, let's see if we use one of these guys. Yeah, let's put a point there. Can you even see that? That's too small. Here we'll put another one. Let's put the same color. Actually, let's put different colors. See which one comes out better. Can you see the black nicely?  Maybe we'll use black. Little black guys. Here's a blue one. That's not bad either. And we'll do one more here. All right. And then let's see this one, the big one. That's too big. Is it? No, not really. That's okay. Let's see. Well, we don't want to use green. Let's use purple. Let's do this one. How's that look? That's not bad. I don't mind the big ones either. But we do need to connect up our thingamajigs here. All right. So I got rope. Let's check this out. The amount of tape they use on these things is crazy. Hey, get off me. I think I need to put all my glasses to find the end of this guy. Let's check it out. Interesting. I didn't think I would have a hard time finding the end of this thing. Right? Usually they should have it at the end, right? So you can pick it off, but this one doesn't seem to have. Does this one? Weird. Oh, there it is. Wow. They've melted it on there so you can't see it. There it is. So let's take a look. If we use strings, this guy's not going to come out nice. It's not dark enough. Oh, yellow is not going to work. Let's try green. I got a couple other things too that we can try. This one's way easier. Gardening supplies, right? Gardening string. And gardening strings on. Oh, did they have it on the inside? Am I pulling the right thing? Should be. Make sure they don't do anything tricky. Ooh, maybe not. They did do something tricky. It's right here. Take a look, right? So don't pull from the center. Let's see how this is going to come out. That's good. That's dark. So the string looks okay. What we could do as well, because we're going to put some, what we're going to do is put, going to put some data points on here and then we're going to connect it up, right? So we're going to go like this, like this, like this, like that. Yeah, that looks good. Okay. We're going to try one more thing. Okay. Actually, two more things. Okay. I don't need the glasses anymore. Getting dizzy on the steel. I got these guys two gardening supplies. So if I don't end up using it for this, I'll use them for the gardening stuff. And let's take off this one too. Cool. Look at this one. This one's nice. They've tied up where it begins, right? That's awesome. I think I'll have to cut it though. Where's our exacto knife? Let's see how these guys will work out. Wow. I've never used these things. So I'm not sure. Oh, it's like Velcro. It's like mini Velcro. Velcro. Look at this. That's neat. That's cool. I like this guy. I feel like pulling the whole thing off. Let's see how this is going to work. I think this, I think we're just going to use a green string, but I do need two different colors as well because there's two different things we're going to grab. So if we do this, we would have to do this.  Look bad either. Let me put on my glasses. We'll let that one. Oh, it sticks too. That's good. That doesn't look bad. That looks pretty good. See if we can tell the difference between that guy and that guy. You can. That's good. However, we've got one other choice. Let's take this off. Let's look at the other choice. The other choice is this guy. I've never used this guy either. And this is good too because I've already marked it off where it begins. Taped it off. This one's simple. No nice sound though. Look at this. So this one, we're going to do it this way. Let's check it out. This one's not as dark. Let's check this out. Here, we can cut this. We'll have a side. I might go hunting for a different color strength today. We'll see. But that's about it. We've got our grid set up, or our graph set up, and we're going to put numbers here, and we're going to put numbers here. Oh, I guess we need little tick marks here too. I should put those in. Let's put those guys in too. I cut them too flush. I didn't need them to be flush, right? Or do we do? Should we do? Should we put a little ticks in? Let's put a little ticks in. I can do that later as well, right? But since we're here, why not? Why not? That one's going to be thicker. I'll just cut them for now and then do a flush later. Oh no, I need to do a flush cut them that way. No, well, we'll do this later. I'll put on here and do a little experiment when I come back with another string just to see how it looks. Okay, so that's us setting up the grid, or setting up a graph, and that's how you basically end up setting up graphs. You do your measurements and you break things down and try to, you know, make it look symmetrical to do good representation of your data so you can analyze it. You get a nice visual of things happening, right? Which is what we'll do tomorrow. And then what we're going to do with the data, what we're going to do with the data when we're analyzing it is just basically look at the rate of return. Basically look at an investment, someplace where we could have parked our money and see what the rate of return would have been over a certain period of time. And it's a good comparison. It's a legit comparison. We'll talk about this in the next video when we put the data on here. Okay, that's it for now. I'll see you guys in the next video.


Good morning. Welcome to the School of Arts Undergraduate Open Day webinar. My name is Crispin Brownford and I'm joined here by two of my colleagues from the School of Arts at Seyes this morning, Angela N. P. and Polly Savage. And we want to talk a bit about the School of Arts at Seyes, the particular Seyes approaches to studying the arts and the degrees that our department convenes. And we want to just have a bit of a discussion about, you know, why the arts matter, why studying the arts. And so before we start off to consider some of the important questions, changes and interests of studying the arts at Seyes and more generally, I just want to introduce myself and my colleagues. As I said, my name is Crispin Brownford. I'm a lecturer in South Asian Arts at Seyes. I'm also the Director of Learning and Teaching on my particular interests in India, in South Asia, and I'm one of multiple regional specialists across the department working on aspects of Asia and Africa. Angela, you're muted, Angela. Turn that off. Angela N. P. a professor of ethnomusicology. So I'm in the music unit. My regional specialism is Southern and Eastern Africa. I have particular interests in public sector ethnomusicology. What we refer to in our unit has music and development. And it's an area where we particularly exploring issues around music and environment, music and migration and refugees. We have a department of about five people and all of them have very special regional specialisms. Okay. Thanks, Crispin. So I'm Polly Savage. I'm a lecturer in the history of art of Africa. And I'm also the convener for the BA Creative Arts Programme, which we'll talk about a bit more in a moment. But my specialism is the contemporary art of Africa, really from the Cold War period onwards. And I'm particularly interested in processes of liberation and decolonisation. And I focus in particular on loose-phone Africa, so Portuguese-speaking Africa. Great. Now, school of arts, and indeed star school widely, is striking in Britain, because we're specialists in Asia and Africa, where everyone at SARS is looking at the world from an Asian and African perspective. And indeed, the majority of the world's population are living in these regions. So we're taking a decent approach to the study of the arts. We may be studying the history of art, music, the creative arts and industries, from within London, but we're taking a global perspective to this. And often the view we're taking on these subjects is from from Mombasa, from Hanoi, from Seoul, from Le, from China. We're looking at a variety of issues, global issues, global issues in the arts, of music, the creative arts, the creative industries, as well as issues related to museums and heritage and development as they relate to the tangible and the intangible arts. Many of these issues come up daily in newspapers and in the media more broadly. Questions that we're engaged with in our undergraduate degrees and our graduates take forward into employment later on. I want to talk about some of these issues and consider amongst ourselves, you know, why we think the arts matter, whether we're looking at the historic parts of the past, where we're looking at the sort of the accumulation of tangible heritage in Asia and Africa that we've now studied as art historians, the great monuments of Asia and Africa, the built environments, the urban landscapes, as well as tangible objects that may move around, whether it be Chinese ceramics or Indian paintings, or bronze casting from West Africa or calligraphy from the Middle East. Some of these materials are historic and we are a great centre for the study of these historic materials. But we're also looking at contemporary issues, contemporary issues for the production and use of art, music and other creative arts. But also we're looking at contemporary issues of how world heritage can be studied, displayed, collected, curated. So we span the historic, but also the contemporary in our studies, and we are engaged with broader issues and questions about it, as well as detailed analysis of objects. Some of our students are also creative students in this sense of either creative presentations, or indeed for our music students, as Angelo well knows, they come to sell us in order not only to study music, but actually to learn to perform in new aspects of musical performance. So, Angelo, perhaps I could start with you. Why do you think the arts matter? What matters to you? Why should students be engaged with tangible and intangible heritage, music and development? Well, there are so many, many reasons. I think looking at the world as it is today, we see a world that is quite segregated. We see a world where certain voices are heard and others are marginalised. And I think the arts helps to bring humanity or human element into this conversation. Learning music from elsewhere in the world helps us to understand people who may not be very well known. Through creative practice, we learn about people, we learn about their social and political context, we learn about gender issues, we learn about how they represent themselves, and all of these through performance, through symbolic practice, which opens our eyes to a whole range of other things. The music in our music unit, that definitely is kind of one of our kind of a specialist areas. And that is through creating a kind of creative empathy, if you like, we learn about a people and their context. So it's not just the not just the performance, but it's the whole context of who people are, how they represent themselves in the world and what their interests and needs are. And often these are issues that are marginalised or silenced by politics, by gender and by a range of other things. So I think the arts are a very, very important way of lifting up and looking under, if you like, to see really who people are and how they represent themselves and how they have experienced their histories. What makes them flourish? What are their aspirations? We see with the Black Lives Matter movement more recently, how presenting themselves creatively in a very powerful way helps us to really understand people's struggles and their aspirations and to try and rectify inequalities in the world. Fascinating. It's an exciting period too for studying the arts. Roy, why do you think the arts matter? Why do they matter to you? Why do they matter in the way you approach things? And how can we engage students in these important, vital and urgent business? Yeah, I mean, it's such an important question at the moment, isn't it?  And I would say that, you know, studying the arts, it really opens up other universes. I think this is why it's so important. It opens up other ways of thinking. So it creates a space where, you know, difficult questions can be asked. It creates a space for critical thinking and that's why sometimes it makes people uncomfortable because, you know, those questions that don't get asked anywhere else can be explored through the arts. John Ruskin says art shows us what it is to be human. And I think that's such a such a wonderful quote that really for me summarizes why, why the arts are so important because it's our history of art is not just about art, it's about history, it's about politics, it's about philosophy. It's about what makes us a society, what makes us a world. So, you know, if you think about objects, you know, in a sense, we're not just talking about objects. We take, for example, the toppling of the statue of Edward Colston or the requests to return the objects that have been looted from Benin by the British Emperor. You know, these actions, they really matter in fundamental ways, not just because of the objects, but because these objects stand for something really much larger. Because they offer kind of evidence for events and relationships in the past that require rethinking. You know, they kind of connect us to histories that need to be confronted. And so that's why, you know, they really do matter. It's not just about kind of looking at looking at pictures. It's really about kind of how we understand ourselves in relation to the past and how we might imagine our futures. So they really do matter. They do indeed. And I mean, you know, both of you have drawn attention to the importance of thinking, you know, beyond the object beyond the performance to the larger social political environmental context in which objects performances are created used consumed and indeed circulated. What do you raise the important issue of restitution of the ways in which objects from one region have circulated to other regions and now appear, whether in publications or on the internet, or indeed placed in new contexts such as museums. And so a larger issue about about the arts is not just the study of the arts to, you know, understand why paintings were produced and used by certain peoples in China in the 11th and 12th centuries and or culture or mobile India in the 17th century or indeed in in Southern Africa today, but also about the ways in which those objects have been consumed circulated migrated to other regions and how this rate is indeed important social and indeed political issues about people's nations communities identities today. I think of the sort of aspects that that are so as students are engaged with often provocatively and argumentatively about, you know, how has, how have our disciplines been constructed, you know, what is the role of colonialism and Western imperialism in not only dominating certain areas of the world, politically, but also the ways in which that colonialism imperialism has had an impact on the ways in which academic disciplines themselves constructed and disseminated the way in which art history, as an example, was developed over the course of the 19th century, you know, in a colonial expansionist periods. And so the perspectives one might take to sort of important question of what is art, how can art be understood are often from, you know, implicitly from a Western perspective. And it's these kind of issues that that we can challenge it says to say, maybe we need to look at some of these questions about, you know, what is art, why are objects circulating around the world, how artworks presented in different ways in galleries and museums in international Biennales, how who gets to present these and how are these objects presented, how are peoples and societies represented and displayed to other worlds, who gets to decide. And so these are all important political issues. And I think that's the sort of exciting thing in a way that we're looking at people, people on the ground, people doing things in the past, and indeed the present. And we're engaging with important issues of people's actions, people's lives, but through the study of objects of performances of spaces. I think this is a really is very particular important moment in history for these kinds of conversations. And one of the things I'll add to what you were saying, Crispin, is the importance of really critiquing the idea that proper knowledge is knowledge which is written and spoken. There are many, many places in the world where really important things can only be expressed through song, through ritual, through the body. And one of the things that we really look at in our school of arts and in our music program is how do we listen in culturally appropriate ways. How do we change our listening practice so that we can give credibility to different ways that people communicate their interests and their needs in the world. So one of the areas for instance is looking at peace building international peace building, which often is is controlled by certain protocols that have been devised and formulated by a Western judicial system. But in a place like South Sudan where I work, when people want to say something that is truthful and quite hard hitting and important, they sing songs to each other. So the West doesn't understand the credibility of that those songs as real knowledge as real proper information. So what we try to do it so as is to flip the way we understand these things and say music matters in a range of different ways and often in highly political and highly relevant authoritative ways. So we need to start listening differently in the world today. And I think too in in many parts of Asia, knowledge, religious knowledge often, you know the centrality of the transmission of tradition of traditions of religious knowledge and indeed artistic knowledge is carried on through through practice through performance. Yeah, that knowledge is transmitted orally, whether orally through the spoken word or as you say orally by listening to that. The emphasis we might place in or has been placed in in European culture on the importance of a written world with written word isn't as important when when objects performance is listening recitation matters so much in which knowledge and ideas and and heritage is transmitted in these regions. You know, from your perspective, you know, where do you see the role of the arts in particularly in your in your own areas of research. Well, I mean, I think, you know, if we if we think about the arts as a way of it's obviously it's a form of communication isn't it it's a form of creating a connection. And, you know, if we look historically at, you know, the way that this, you know, different forms of art different forms of art being used to create those connections. And I think, you know, it offers us the possibility to really look at the world in new ways and to open up, you know, much more global perspectives and I think that's what's so special about what we do it so us is that, you know, in other institutions you know history of arts is really the history of Europe and the history of North America, you know, primarily. And once you start looking at this from a global perspective, then it really opens up the possibility to understand the world in new ways and to think about what connects us as people. So to think about other ways of thinking but also to think about what what unites us and what brings us together so that's an incredibly powerful thing and it's quite transformative I mean I came to so as a student and it completely changed it completely changed the way I thought about the world completely changed the way I understood the world because of that, you know. I think so as is, is a special it's an unusual place, you know, where we're studying disciplines that you can study elsewhere in Britain or in the world, but you know we're taking a different perspective on these things. You know the degrees that we offer in the school of arts, you know we offer a degree in in BA history of art, it is history of art, you can study history of art in many other places. History of Art who study at SAS is a disciplinary foundation in in history of art learning about how to study objects, perhaps looking at the media and technologies of art, but also looking at questions of how has history of art as a discipline been adopted, particularly for Asia and Africa. Our examples may be Asian and African, but the perspectives on art are global are more much more broader. Even when our examples are Indian or African or East Asian, when we're examining questions of what is art or other border of how can the history of art be studied how can it be pursued as a discipline. Our examples may be in Asia and Africa, but they're questions that all our historians are engaged for. We also have a degree run jointly with UCL on me and neighbor here in the center of London, part of London with some of the rich museum collections which include material from Asia and Africa, as well as of course Europe. And some students wish to combine the study of Asian and African art with a European perspective. We also offer a degree of which Polly Savage is a current convener, a BA in creative arts and cultural industries. We also offer joint degrees in history of art and another subject such as social anthropology or history, and indeed music with these subjects. Music can be studied as a joint degree with other subjects and also music within the creative arts and cultural industries. There's a whole course there and maybe Angela and Polly, you can each in turn talk a bit more about your particular interests, Angela music and Polly to talk a bit about creative arts and industries, and we can then Polly and I as the students can then expand a bit more about what's special about the so as approach to music, history of art, the creative arts and cultural industries to give you all a sense of why science is really a special place to come and why it's such an exciting place to be an undergraduate study. So, Angela, first of all, the BA music. Thanks, Christmas. The BA music is, I think, very, very unique for music programs in the, in the UK. Very often, most often a music program in the UK would entail quite a heavy load of Western classical music, and perhaps one or two subjects that have to do with music from other parts of the world. What we are offering is music courses that have to do exclusively from Asia and Africa in the Middle East. And here you can you, you, you do it alongside another specialism so many of our students who register for the BA music will take a language, so a very popular combination will be BA music in Korean or in Chinese. But as Crispin was saying, some of our students do social anthropology, and then many of them will do music with another arts specialism. And that is quite unique as I understand it. The music courses that are offered within that degree are absolutely is so exciting and we have a wide range. In your first year you will be doing a subject called sounds and cultures, all the first years do that. And we take you through our regions, the musical regions that we offered so as you do section on on say West Africa, some music from East Africa, even some from North Africa. We had some fantastic musicians come in this year to talk about music from Morocco and Algeria. And you don't just learn about it, but they bring in the instruments you learn to play the rhythms. You might even be asked to stand up and dance a bit so that you really feel the music, but then also of course music from South Asia from China, and from other parts of the world. You proceed then to do area specialisms so there too, if you're interested in music in Cuba, music in sacred music from South Asia. At the moment I'm teaching a course on music of the Indian Ocean, you have an option for a wide range of options for those those area specialisms. And then we have more broader theoretical subjects. We look at global pop and the decolonizing of global pop so when we talk about global pop we don't talk about it, only in the European or Western sense but we look at kpop. And it's, it's, it's referenced to, or it's relevance to global music industry will look at South Sudan South Sudanese hip hop. And again it's connection to the hip hop, the global hip hop scene. We do music and gender, we also do skills based courses so if you want to do some sound recording if you want to do podcast, or radio production, you learn some of those skills. So there's a wide range and then all alongside that you do select courses from your, your second specialism so from anthropology or from from the arts. So that's basic years, a wide range of options, and very much an experience of discovering the world of music. Okay. Well, what's special about you know I'll be a creative arts and cultural industries. Yeah, so this this be a program is incredibly excited about it it's a it's a relatively new program. And it's really the first one in the country that allows you to study all all the arts of Asia and Africa. So, if you're interested in history of art but you're also interested in music or you're also interested in film, and you don't want to choose just one and it's a wonderful option because it allows you to combine all of these disciplines. So there's a good range of choice within this within this degree structure. So in your first year you will study history of art your study of kind of introductions to history of art, but also to film, thinking about you know the films major in Africa, and also to music some of the some of the modules that Angela's describing. You will also have access to those, including that the possibility or the option of doing practice based music training if you want to do that. So in the second year you then get to to specialize a little bit more. And really one of the things that's special about this degree is that it allows you to combine the theory and history of you know the arts and initiative quite global context with quite practice based skills so it gives you training in curatorial practice for example in museology, as well as in music and things like podcast production or, you know filmmaking, all of these things you can, you can study within the context of this degree.  It also gives you this incredibly kind of engaging intellectual background so it's a very exciting degree. I wish it had been around when I was looking for a degree. Chris, can I just jump in there I left out a very very important side about both the music degree but also the creative arts degree and that is performance. I think we offer a very, very wide range of of instrumental study from Gamaland to Kora to West African drums to a whole range of different East Asian and South Asian instruments, and that is a very, very dynamic part of the School of Arts. We have concerts we have guest lecturers we have master classes. We have a very active performance to group aspects to the program. I think we've raised the School of Arts a bit noisier than some other wonderful way with with some of our students, you know, performing what they're learning. When it comes to the degrees in history of art, I mean history of art is a part of the creative arts and cultural industries degree as Polly says but you can also study it on its own. The other part is, you know, it's a very broad ranging subjects, you know, it's not simply about, you know, as we've already sort of suggested it just about studying objects in in their isolation. It's about thinking about the production of objects the way in which they used by people.  And so in the first year it starts, it's, it offers a thorough grounding in the history of art more broadly as a discipline by looking at the connected histories of of Asia and Africa through the study of objects. How can we understand the production of useful objects across Asia and Africa. We might want to study the history of Asia and Africa, but do it through the study of objects through the study of material and visual culture. We might want to look at the objects themselves. And in another aspect of the first year course there is a module on media and technologies of art, looking at how if we think about the types of materials and media from which objects what impact does that have on the way in which they used with which they're circulated, whether it's thinking about the history of printing technology, which predates the use of printing in Asia, the use of printing as a technology for the production of manuscripts predates the printing technology in the West by numerous centuries. That's an example of the way in which taking another approach to media and technology is we see that from an Asian or African perspective, you know, there are differences to when was printing first developed, for example. We might also want to look, and in another module that in the first year. There's a module on the spaces of art to thinking about the places in which art has been produced in whether that's in a religious space, a temple, a mosque, or the role of the arts in quarterly or palace environments in the Middle East or Asia. We might want to then look at the ways in which these objects are used and consumed and seen in a religious or or quarterly or domestic context in Asia and Africa. And then think about what happens to an object if you think about an object in terms of its biography in terms of its movement from one environment to another. What's the role of the museum, whether a colonial museum, or the modern art market in the construction of meaning for objects. This is again where, you know, the politics of the arts comes in. We might also want to engage with not just the spaces of art in terms of objects circulating within them, but those spaces themselves, be they buildings or cities or landscapes, the way in which looking at architecture, the architecture of museums, the architecture of religious buildings in Asia and Africa has become central elements in the contemporary heritage industry in these regions. The role of heritage institutions in deciding what is worth saving, preserving, conserving, and what is of importance or of lesser significance. These are all important political issues that affect people's lives and how they see themselves and how they are seen by others. In the later parts of the degree at science in history of art, you can go on if you were particularly engaged as many of our students are by the arts of Africa, you can go on to study the arts of this vast and diverse region in more detail, like historic arts or more modern and contemporary arts or the arts of the peoples of the diasporas from these regions. So you can study, go on and study in more detail, aspects of African arts or Japanese art or Chinese ceramics or Indian painting or Southeast Asian Buddhist art, for example, you know, for many of these subjects there isn't anywhere else in the world to study these things. Another aspect more broadly in the later years of our degree is thinking about the arts more broadly, thinking about the cultural industries, thinking about the role of museums and in the collection and display of objects in these new environments. In the second year in our history of art degree and indeed for the creative arts and cultural industries students. They study the sort of the history of museums, the histories of collecting, how have certain objects moved from one environment to another. This also is an aspect of thinking about as Angela indicated at the beginning, thinking about the decolonization of knowledge, thinking about the ways in which our knowledge of the arts has been constructed from certain perspectives and how these are vitally important issues today in how we can decolonize that knowledge and and face up particularly perhaps from London as a formal imperial capital to facing up to the fact that so much Asian and African art now lies in in Britain, British museums. How did it get here. How did it arrive. How is it understood. How is it being displayed. It's not all the critical issues for the study of the arts, but also critical issues for the study by by our students, so it's tremendously exciting. I mean London is a terrific place to study Asia and Africa, because it's a global city. It's a global artistic center. It's an obviously vital place. And indeed, so as itself thinking about museums and displays and contemporary arts, so as has its own gallery, Brunner gallery, where exhibitions of Asian and African arts and photography, and other visual media, regularly displayed in here that bring people from across Britain to London to so as to the gallery, and also from elsewhere in Europe. It's we're very close to the British Museum, which is just around the corner, which is a tremendous asset for for the art historians amongst us. But as it means we can just be in a classroom talking about, for example, myself talking about some works of Indian sculpture, and I can show people pictures on it, but then I can show them a film of these objects being consumed and used in a religious context in India, but then I can go around to the British Museum and look at the objects themselves in all their three dimensional magnificence, that it's such a magnificent resource to have close by. So as really is a sort of a global hub with its spokes reaching out across the world to Asia and Africa. I hope that's given you some sense of really why the School of Arts and why studying history of art, the creative arts and cultural industries and music and so as is really special. Another thing I'd mentioned about so as of course, is that it is a specialist center for the study of Asia and Africa, and the study of Asia and Africa often includes, you know, other aspects of culture, including for example languages. Many Asian and African languages can be studied at SARS that cannot be studied anywhere else in Europe. We offer degrees in Chinese and Arabic and Japanese these are languages that may be able to study it at other universities in Britain. We also offer degrees in the study of languages that you can study elsewhere in Europe, including African languages, including Swahili, for example, as well as other Asian languages, including Vietnamese and Indonesian and Persian and Hebrew, Now what I also emphasize here if you're interested in languages is that you can study our degrees as a joint degree with the language. You can study music and Korean, as Angela said, but if you're not sure about the language, and you're not sure or perhaps are not confident that you want to have a whole half of your degree in a language. You can still, and so as encourages this, we want our students to learn a bit of the languages in Asia and Europe, that even if you're studying the BA in history of art, there is still the option to do some modules in a language. And if you get on with it, if you love it, you can take it further. So, so as is a tremendously exciting place and indeed many of our graduates go on into really exciting locations, not just in Britain, but elsewhere in Europe, and indeed globally, and indeed so as both studies the world, but also our students come across the globe. And so, so as itself is a very international center with a tremendously diverse student body in one of the world's great global cosmopolitan cities.  Angela. Well, first of all, to say, and picking up on the idea of London being a global city, our students come from all over the world. So it's, it's, it's particularly fascinating to see what they get from so as and how they take those skills back to their home areas and how they develop careers there. And as a very wide range of careers so amongst our students. So, and the other thing is that they take their profession, they take their networks with them. So the, the relationships that they develop with us often become really important professional networks that they take into their lives beyond so as, and it's so exciting to watch that. So, amongst the careers that our undergraduates have developed, many of them have gone on to become very well known performers so performance is one of the big aspects of that we're watching a number of them at quite at the moment, one developing a very very exciting career for herself in France she's from there, becoming quite a global name. We watch them going back into the Middle East and developing a name for themselves there having developed a skill in playing wood. So performance composition and production at various levels developing their skills in sound production at so as and then going home and building that some of them use product their production skills in in theater in film in television. And what they're taking with them is not just the skill, but the knowledge of different musical forms and different sound and aesthetic practices into creating much more sensitive production productions at the end of the day. Many of our students go into teaching or into community music making, which is working with choirs, community choirs, or working with music in hospitals in in care homes in some of them even in palliative care so taking their musical skills into community environments. Again, where their knowledge of a multicultural music making becomes extremely important. Some of our undergraduates go on to study music therapy, which requires another degree on top of a music degree. But what we're seeing and I'm keeping close tabs on this is that they're helping to develop the whole field of music therapy, which was based very much on a very important framework of what sound means, they're bringing in a much more multicultural, global understanding of the meaning of sound, and opening up the field of music therapy in all kinds of ways. So we're seeing the development of what is called community music therapy, which is not only the medicalized idea of music, music helping to with people with autism or certain kinds of disabilities, but music helping with whole communities that maybe have been damaged by war, or by gang, gang involvement, or some kind of trauma. And so the music and health issues quite a big trajectory for some of our students. Many of our undergraduate students go on to do master's degrees they might be interested in academia. And what we do do a lot of in our undergraduate degree is teach research methods is encourage our students to go out and do research. These are students who are interested in writing and in developing more of an academic career for themselves. Some go into charities into NGOs or into international development field that's very, very exciting. And again, working with refugees working with migrants, bringing their musical knowledge so that a field that is very technocratic is very numbers orientated can be a kind of reconstructed through a much more human element of using music as a way to find out who people are and what their aspirations are. We have a number of students who are very interested in broadcasting and in media. And so we do run it as Polly was suggesting we have courses in podcasting. We have one wonderful course on presenting world music for radio. So some broadcasting radio and television is a very exciting area to go into. And again, a multicultural musical understanding really adds something to to that to their ability to develop radio for a much wider public. And then one other area that is where we see a lot of our students going into is into sound archiving. This is our interest in heritage. The British Library is very close to so as almost the entire sound archive at the British Library is populated by ex so as well so as graduates. And these are people who are interested in histories of musical collection and using old musical collections as a way to repatriate taking them back to the communities to whom they belong. So they are developing ways to sort of reactivate the archive so that they are not just recordings in the library, but they're recordings about people stories their histories, and that also leads into an interest in music journalism. So for instance, one of our main music magazines out there called song lines. The main editor is a so as graduate, and many of the people who write for the magazine come from so as. It's just a sample. But as I started out by saying is as as kind of diverse our student body is is representing the kind of diversity of their career interests and capabilities. So come and join us and develop your career through us. Pauli, just briefly just some examples of where so as graduates have gone on to and then, and then we'll have some time for questions that you can either post in the chat or just speak up so probably just briefly a few examples of graduate outcomes. What are the sort of skills that are so as students take out into the world. In their occupations later occupations. Yeah, of course. I mean, often size students or size graduates find that they're really quite in demand because you know there's really been a kind of boom and an interest in a sort of much more global approach to the arts. So particularly in contemporary art but also in terms of museology. So really kind of critical moment for museums and for the arts. And there's really a demand to take a much more global approach. And so, whilst many degree programs don't produce students with that kind of global approach of course so I see it's producing these students and what they find when they're in the market is that really they have, you know, an excellent kind of range of choices available to them just because you know there's so few people trained, you know these specific skills and knowledges. So our students I mean, they will be trained so a student who takes the creative arts and cultural industries degree for example, will be trained in this very broad range of skills that Angelo's outlined some of but also skills in in curating and museology and skills in filmmaking and analyzing and creating film as well. So that really opens up a vast sort of array of options for our students. Those are history of art students tend to go into curatorial positions so there's been, you know, many of our alumni are in, you know, institutions around the world in curatorial positions in museological positions. But also students, you know, go into, into other aspects of the art so they might, many of them go on to have further academic careers they come back for the doctoral programs and go on to have academic careers. Some of them go into publishing into NGOs again, perhaps into journalism and, and these kind of things. So yeah, I mean it really does open up an incredibly wide kind of range of career paths. And curating curating seems the obvious one but there's there's many more beyond that as well and there's many aspects of curating so some students might come on for example to arts education so working within galleries and museums in education mode so working with schools and community groups. They might go into conservation they might go into perhaps press and marketing which can be actually a really interesting path to take. So yeah there are many, many different options and we're very proud of our alumni that go on to do all sorts of exciting things. Yeah, very much indeed. I think the three of us have talked an awful lot. And really wish we want to hear from you. If you have any questions. Please post them in the chat or just turn your microphone on turn your camera on and ask us anything directly anything to do with any of the issues we've raised today or any questions you might have of our degrees or or so specifically. I might also just point out, my colleague has reminded us that this session is being recorded just to mention that as well. And just to just to interrupt Chris bin as well sorry. If you would like to ask a question, you can raise your hand and then I can unmute you as well so please do that if you'd like to ask a question out loud, or you can use the q amp a chat box as well. And I've also put our email address is up here so if there's anything you want to know or want to raise with any one or all of us afterwards or if you just want some more information about anything to do with a degree. The degrees on offer in the school of us so please get in touch with delighted to hear from people and always happy to answer your questions point in the direction of further information. So chrisman there's a there's a question here from a new about whether the performance aspect of the music is mandatory. In your first year, it is in the first year what we do is we offer you. We take five weeks segments of different instruments we just take you through our world of music by offering a section on gamelan a section on Korra a section on tabla from South Asia, and and a section on Iranian music. That is the only performance course that you do do as a compulsory course in the music, but from from second year onwards, you can opt to take performance or to take something else you're not it's not obligatory. It may be worth adding that if you wanted to study music so you wanted to study ethnic ethnomusicology and history and theory of music but you didn't want to do the practice based element then you could go through the creative and then that's possible to do that and then the performance option is optional. Thank you. Sorry, there were some other questions coming in. Hannah you have a question for combined East Asian studies, how much history and art will be in the course. I mean in terms of joint degrees it's it's half and half. So you do 50% East Asian studies and 50% history of art, the history of art if you do a joint degree with you have particular regional interests, such as East Asian studies. The initial history of art in the first year will be the history of art or a nation Africa more broadly rather than specifically East Asia, but as you go through the degree there are more chances to do specialist sort of emphasise certain regions to a certain extent, but you'll come out with a sort of a broad history degree, even with some regional specialist. So I hope that gives you some sense. A lot of the things about the degree structure and what these are available on the website, so can you probably sort of gets something there. I have a question for the be a creative arts when you have to have a portfolio background. I think the answer there is the be a creative arts and cultural industries, when we're not teaching the fine art when we're not doing it that we're studying the arts in terms of the produced object but also the environments and they're produced and consumed. So if you're interested in fine arts and creative practice. We're not the right institution for you with the exception of performance in music. So you don't need an art background, many of our students don't have an art background if they have studied art at school fine art. That's often great because it means they bring a sensibility of making and producing to the ways in which they interpret. Our students only discover history of art as a discipline, having studied the humanities more broadly, whether sort of English or languages or or history prior to this, and then just realize that there are other ways of exploring language literature culture art history by thinking about the subjects in terms of in terms of objects. It's worth adding to that Crispin that what you know of course you're actually right that this degree program is not practice based and it's not you know we don't have studio so it's not you know studio practice based degree. But at the same time there is the possibility within this degree to have quite creative assessments so there is an option within that so for example, some modules will ask you to produce a podcast, rather than a essay. So if a student at the moment who's looking to present for his final thesis part of it will be a graphic novel for example so you know there there are certainly, you know options within these degree programs, specifically within creative arts and cultural industries to do more and you know alternative forms of assessment. And we're very keen on alternative forms of assessment, recognising that there are many different ways of presenting one's knowledge and understanding of these things. You know, we've talked about oral and oral transmission of knowledge, which we're doing now in a way, but also in the way in which we evaluate students work and we encourage elements of that creativity in written and spoken and visual form. There's a question in the chat box. How does it work the year abroad, in case of four year degrees. Is anyone could either of you answer that. Particularly for well if you're studying a degree, which includes a language. This often includes a year abroad in the third year so the third out of four years. So if you're studying history of art with Korean, the third year will be in Korea, studying Korean being immersed in Korean culture and language. Some students opt for that four year degree we're doing the language, some opt for an alternative to three year degree, which may include a language that doesn't have the year abroad. In terms of the art history part of it, are there elements of another question has just come in. Are there elements of art thought as part of the language course. If you're studying Japanese alone, then you may be able to do options in East Asian art within that degree. But if you're studying Japanese as a degree that's hosted by another department, not not from the school of arts so from from the school of arts you can go out as it were within science to another department to do either half your degree or just modules of your degree in a language, but that's always combined with what we're doing in our department. So what I'd say in terms of the language is that there are different levels of language as part of a degree you can do a bit or a lot. So that's something that's slightly from a side and that is we have quite a few Japanese language students who join our music ensembles because we have a number of Japanese ensembles, including an Okinawa group. These are ensembles that meet up on the weekends and and are very active. They often do performances outside. So it's just something to add to understanding of language of Japanese language and culture is actually learning to perform an instrument and performing with others. So in terms of the year abroad Marina asking about this. I'd also say that at the moment the year abroad for so as students is focused on on the language. It's, it's for students doing a whole degree or half their degree which includes a specific language so that you those students go to that host country to study. Countries that you can go to in the third year abroad to study language include Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam. I think Indonesia now, India, India. In the Middle East, you can do Arabic, Turkish and Farsi Persian abroad and they might be Zanzibar for Swahili and indeed now to go to. You can study Swahili in, I think in Zanzibar or I forget this is new. So, so great exciting options to study abroad if you're doing the language. Any other questions about anything, you know, many of the questions about languages are best directed perhaps to the languages and cultures team that perhaps doing open day presentations straight after us to level or later today. But we can certainly answer any questions with art history and music and the creative arts and cultural industries now. I'm delighted so many people came this. I'm thrilled that so many people wants to come along to this presentation. So thank you so much for coming. If you do have any more questions now, or if you just think of it later there's something to do get in time. I think perhaps at two minutes to 11, we should all go and put the kettle on and make a cup of tea. Thank you so much to you all for coming. I hope you're excited by the possibility of studying at SOAS as much as we're excited to be working and teaching at SOAS. It's a really special place with a lot of special people. That means ultimately the students, the students of what make it such an exciting, vibrant, brilliant place to be. So I look forward to welcoming you to stuff for us in the future. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.


Membership next to miss business, Which is consideration of motion 8732 in the name of Nicolai Sturgeon on appointment of jr. Scottish Minister. I call on the first minister to speak to and move motion 8732. I rise to move the motion in my name that parliament approved the appointment of Marie Todd as a Scottish minister. Before it turns into Marie's appointment, let me address Mark McDonald's departure. As minister for children and early years, Mark wrth bod i'r gifot o'r myw ar ddiogel innocenturio i ddorwgron yn meddwl i bethau ein rai sy'n edryhau i gyd-feyddol yng Nghraesloedd Cerlyniad-Gyneboedd, ac mae'r hyn o gyd-feydd o'r clywed ar y cychwyn ardal iawn. Mae hi gyd-feydd yn allu cyfnodol i ddechrau'r hyn. Rwy'r cyffredinid ymlaen i fyng oesbryd, ac yn ogyrch gyrsig o yw Neverfyn amdodol, Men, in particular, to reflect on their behaviour, and Mark has done that. Mark's departure was not in a manner that anyone would have wished, but it was the right decision. Turning now to Marie Todd's appointment. Marie isn't only a relative newcomer to our Parliament, she is also a relative newcomer to politics, one of the many people on both sides of the debate who was inspired to become politically active during the independence referendum campaign. Prior to her election last year, Marie had a long career working for NHS Highland as a mental health pharmacist. She also volunteered as an anti-natal teacher for the national childbirth trust and, indeed, was still teaching a weekly bumps and babies group right up until her election. Having supported mothers and their babies, Marie will now take on responsibility for ensuring that Scotland is the best place for those same children to grow up. Since becoming an MSP, Marie has shown herself to be a formidable advocate both for her constituents and for the causes in which she believes. Few could fail to have been moved by her passionate heartfelt appeal in this chamber to the UK Government to halt the roll-out of universal credit, based on what she herself witnessed in the Highlands. It is in her day-to-day parliamentary duties, as a whip and as a member of the Finance and the Health and Sport Committee, that Marie has developed a well-deserved reputation for diligence and hard work. To those in the Opposition benches who might be shadowing Marie, let me gently remind them that she is also an enthusiastic member of the Scottish Parliament's rugby team. If you believe that she can be pushed around easily, I suggest that you first consult her teammates to find out the truth. Government has few greater long-term responsibilities than to ensure that all of our young people get the best possible start in life. As such, the job that Marie is taking on is one of the most important in government. In doing so, she has my full confidence and I hope that she also has the best wishes of every MSP across this chamber. Presiding Officer, it gives me great pleasure to move that the Parliament agrees that Marie Todd will be appointed as a junior Scottish Minister. I call on Jackson Carlaw. Presiding Officer, the circumstances attending this ministerial resignation do not require editorial comment in the chamber from me this afternoon. I note only on behalf I hope of us all that this is the most depressing ministerial resignation in our relatively short history. I thank the former minister for his service and note in particular the focus he brought with real passion and feeling to the issues of children with autism and I thought he did a commendable job in that regard. We welcome the appointment of Marie Todd, a new member in 2016. She has worked hard in the chamber and has built her reputation across the parties as an effective and passionate MSP. I hope that those qualities will be reflected in her career as a minister, which we will all watch with interest. We support the nomination. The question is that motion number 8732, in the name of Nicola Sturgeon, be agreed. Are we all agreed? Yes. We are all agreed. I congratulate the minister on our appointment. We are now going to move to the next item of business, which is stage 3 proceedings on the child poverty Scotland bill. We are just going to take a few moments for members to change seats.