Everybody tonight we're debating whether or not there is evidence for Islam and we are starting right now with nitty years opening statement Thanks so much for being with us in the year the floor. Thank you all yours All right. Thank you. Thank you. So I'd like to thank Tom for Accepting this challenge, you know, a lot of people don't come forward to debate Quran and science and actually both the atheist and the Muslim side So that is something which is which is good and I think the reason why they don't want this is very reluctant is because For the most part, this is a debate which has already been won And I think atheists and Christians alike they see this as an unwinnable debate for them So you can look as far as the eye can see and you will find very very few debates on this topic But not on our part. We're ready to debate this anytime. I would just like to make a quick call out To David Wood and I'll take 30 seconds to do that You know, I have noticed he refuses to debate difficult topics like scientific errors in the Bible anything related to the Science in the Bible. I think it's because they know they're clear Indefensible scientific errors in their books. So we have no problem with that We debate this all the time not only that but another catastrophic topic for them is slavery And I would love to see a debate between him and Matthew de la Hande or even myself or we could all three talk about these things But let's I'll throw that challenge out and I'll ask them to stop running away. But let me continue now with my presentation. So You know what when we talk about we will look at both prophetic as well as scientific evidence For the Quran fact, let me go in and do a quick screen share over here So I can share my my presentation. So this is going to be the starting lineup for tonight We are going to look at scientific miracles in the Quran and verses which agree with modern science Let me backwards miracle. Well, that'll be the conclusion at the end and and there and and what we're going to see is that there is a clear Consistent pattern of verses in the Quran which agree with modern science Now before I go there a lot. I'd also like to talk a little bit about prophecies because there's also prophecies which will prove Muhammad Now, you know, whenever I debate with atheists I'd love to bring up the issue of prophet Muhammad in the Bible Now, you might think what Christian atheists don't even believe in the Bible. Why would they debate this topic?  They don't even believe in God. Well, here's the reason why Of course, we can all agree the Bible has many scientific errors, which I mentioned Christians run away from And that's true and it's got many errors and all that is true. However, no matter how badly damaged the Bible is It is still a book of prophecy. It is still a book which which uh, which affirms a prophetic tradition Which we as Muslims also believe in as well So if atheists and other people can point out prophecies and nostradomises works and They don't believe that's from God. Well, certainly they can look at the Bible and just pick it up and and and in regardless of what you believe about it You can see clear prophecies. So let me go ahead and share one Very quickly and this is in Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18 it said I'm going to raise up a prophet like Moses Okay, so who is Moses? Moses was a great warrior prophet. So I'm going to scroll very quickly through my presentation I don't have time to get into, you know, read it out to you. So just please hit pause on your youtube channel to give all my references so Encyclopedia Britannica states Moses was a great warrior prophet Muhammad comes And guess what? He's a warrior prophet that not just warrior prophet, but they are both successful Warrior prophets. What else similarity do we find them? They both establish a theocratic state as you can see from Bible study tools on the on the left side history dot net History dot come on the right both of them Muhammad and and Moses establish a theocratic state So look at the similarities which I'm bringing forth. It's not based on some reinterpretation scheme It is based upon facts verifiable evidences They are both law givers As you can see a chatbot on the or khabad on the on the on the left and cambridge dot org on the right side Both of them are recognized as law givers and they both conquered the holy land Uh, we're not and what's interesting is not only did they did Moses and and Muhammad both conquered the holy land They did it in the exact same way Uh, Moses sent Joshua to do it Muhammad sent Fomar to do it. So what are the eighties going to tell us now? Oh, it's all a coincidence. Yeah, these things happen and good. I wanted to say that It's all a coincidence. So I'm sure tom is in fact He's going to come up and he's going to say that so so here we see that Muhammad Fits this prophecy which is based upon facts as I've presented. So let's get into the science here There are many Verses which agree with modern science, but just because you see some verses which agree with modern science That doesn't automatically make it a scientific miracle. So what do you do then? Well, all you gotta do is just call the cops Here is this is an acronym co ps. What does it stand for? It could be when you see an agreement between the Quran and modern science It could be that this could be a coincidence Purely accidental discovery. It was not the author's intent Maybe he was just being metaphorical, but it just accidentally happened to agree with science Maybe it's something which is obvious, you know, like like the grass grows and the sky is blue or something like that Maybe he plagiarized maybe he copied from another source or maybe the author of the sign of the Quran with a great scientist He's doing discoveries and He just happened to find these scientific facts. So We don't automatically jump to the conclusion that this book is a miracle or anything like it based on that But so so what does make the Quran a miracle? What makes it a miracle is a consistent pattern of making scientifically statement Without making an error an ignorant man cannot consistently get it right And so cops cannot explain that And this is exactly what we find in the Quran. So let me very quickly start with the first example of uh of agreement with science Three facts about alcohol, which we're going to find number one the Quran talks about alcohol, however What the Quran doesn't do what the Quran does it avoids the scientific errors Of the people of the past like for example, this is in the 19th century. I mean, they were giving alcohol Uh to to to to newly uh to women who just had newborns from Anheuser boys This is an advertisement from this is a scientific error all the way into the 19th century You see it was widely held belief undisputable that alcohol was Was used for medicinal purposes to treat heart attacks and there's as we can read from the following article that everywhere from the common cold to this Pesier I can even pronounce that to all kinds of ailments, but all of this contradict science So what we find in the Quran is that the Quran goes against the expert medical advice for its time Which is something uncharacteristic of a false prophet and the Quran Actually makes the first scientifically correct statement, which we are going to find right over here Science today in the CNN article, which I'm which I've posted over here tells you that Many studies have shown that the overall health risk of drinking alcohol outweighs any benefits This is from uh, you can look at my reference over here from the CNN article about no amount of alcohol Is good for you your overall health of global study sets Now lock now watch what the Quran says it's like chapter 2 verse 2 19 They have some benefits for the people But the harm is far greater than their benefit A clear direct word for word agreement with modern science What is interesting here is that the Quran negates the medical use for alcohol like heart attacks and things like that Which is completely unscientific But it gets but there's more The Quran is i chapter 5 verse 90 Actually prohibits all of alcohol and this has had a deep scientific impact upon Uh upon a society so much so that uh, there has been some research Conducted if I can find it in which they say basically that that now because of the Quran Muslim women are 50 times less likely than the global average when I can find my reference over here And so this is interesting so Not only did the Quran condemn alcohol, so we now find two Scientifically correct statements in the Quran now, of course other people if you ask like one out of 10 people Let me find my reference here. You ask one out of 10 people Um, what's your opinion about alcohol? Maybe Some people will say yeah, yeah, I don't think alcohol is good. You shouldn't drink at all And that's fine. So out of all of this misinformation the Quran got the scientific Answers right. So yeah, people you can find people actually say oh, don't drink any alcohol But so there's three arguments that need to be made over here Which which needs to which he would teach it needs to address number one How did the author of the Quran avoid the scientific errors which we have found of the people of the past? To scientifically correct statement and this great impact What is it about the Quran which we find in no other book that is so good that it saves Millions of children from fetal alcohol syndrome What so there is something different look at other people have condemned alcohol in the past But what is it different? So I think that is my 10 minutes And uh, I guess it's tj's turn for 10 minutes. Let me stop my screen share You got it. Thank you very much for that opening statement And we will indeed kick it over to t jump for his opening statement as well Well, I'll let you know folks if it's your first time here at modern day debate We are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics And we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you're from Muslim Christian atheists you name it We're glad you're here and with that we'll kick it over to t jump for his opening as well T jump the floor is all yours Yeah, uh, thanks guys There is no evidence for Islam because it is just as bad as all the other religions It is there are hundreds and hundreds upon errors in the Quran scientific error specifically You can just find a pdf google scientific errors in the Quran and you can find a big list It's phenomenal. Um, share screen share screen I want to share that screen. Yes, share screen Damn, it's not showing up. Is it it's showing up? It's almost there now. It's there We're talking errors Yes, do you see a picture of the scientific errors in the Quran or do you see a background? Yeah, yeah, but I jean, I believe what we are going to talk about In the email, it's my it's my So we can just go through the errors in the Quran. Do you guys see the list geocentrism I can give you like 30 seconds the same way that I let Nadir Cover his idea in 30 seconds, but to be fair, I think I remember asking you Nadir basically asked if we could just Have this discussion be about his arguments for the Quran being true. This isn't a rebuttal. This isn't opening so Yeah, because you think they're two different debates So so one of the things is I'm just gonna prove that yeah the Quran is garbage It's just a book just like any other and we can just go through all the reasons why astronomy It fails in geocentrism. It fails in the place in the sun It fails in the the missiles the stars are shot by devils It fails from the moon being further from the earth from the stars moon amidst light moon is split into two seven pillars Seven planets in the universe wrong seven heavens wrong. All these things are factually wrong So we can go through the complete list of all the different errors and see this tons and tons of them So we know for a fact it's just a book with a bunch of random garbage facts I can stop share there. So that proves that it's just a bunch of gibberish So the fact that it gets a few mundane facts like alcohol causes Damage is mundane and already known by multiple cultures alcohol originated in china and Other other places in two to six thousand bc It was banned in those cultures because they knew that caused damage It was banned from women in those cultures because it caused damage. It was banned from kids in those cultures Nothing spectacular whatsoever If we're talking about predictions, the simpsons make significantly better predictions than the Quran does So if his evidence is that oh, it made some some nice predictions All in the simpsons We should all be praising the simpsons and worshiping the simpsons because the simpsons has made significantly better predictions Give specific names noble prize winners noble prize winners lady gaga's appearance in the super bowl Exact who's going to be president? It makes exact specific predictions and tons of them which are significantly better than anything in the Quran The only thing dear presented was Fetal alcohol syndrome and present things about bees before bees mundane facts everybody knew Water that water there's waves underneath waves, which everybody knew So there's absolutely nothing spectacular about the Quran whatsoever and his impact is rather minimal compared to other holy books so the fact that he's cherry picking this one instance that Alcohol was banned and Islam therefore presented prevented fetal alcohol syndrome is absolutely mundane And it didn't do anything Islam has caused significantly more damage than anything, especially culturally and economically So his his own evidence his own criteria of evidence disproves His own book is being the legitimate basis of truth Also, it gives us nothing about the world. So this doesn't tell us anything about the world So it's a bunch of random mundane facts. He presents bees and water and fetal alcohol syndrome But tells us nothing about the universe hinduism actually presents a really good Prediction, which is the earth the age of the earth 4.3 billion years. It's pretty close So hinduism actually gives us a good prediction What we would actually count as evidence if this was a magical holy book that told us the actor accurate age the earth began Islamic cosmology is completely wrong. There's nothing about it. That's right And so it's it's a very strange thing that he's presenting these as if there's evidence He only presented like one thing which is the fetal alcohol center, which is very easy to debunk Yeah, many cultures did ban that so apparently The only difference is that well Islam conquered a bunch of places So it saved more lives because it banned alcohol and congratulations That's not evidence that of any way that this is in fact true. It's just evidence. They banned alcohol Congratulations lots of societies in this. I think there was the only piece of evidence He actually presented in this opening. So I don't really have much else to respond to And with that we will go into open conversation This is going to be in two minute intervals want to let you know though as well folks If you haven't already hit that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates to come in the future and also Both of our guests are linked in the description. So if you'd like to hear more You can hear from our from both tom as well as nadir and top Nadir what i'm going to give you is that two minutes to get the ball rolling in this open discussion Okay, thank you. Yeah, and one of the things I just wanted to quickly mention You know, it's not like we're running away from the alleged scientific errors. In fact, we have proved I'm actually the one leading the debate on the Quran is in perfect harmony with modern science But here's a problem Doing both debates all in one is really difficult And it's kind of not fair for me because if you're going to prove With the Quran is a scientific miracle. Let's just do that and we can keep the alleged scientific error Stuff for another time. Look, we're not like the christians like the david woods and people like that We're not going to run. I'm here at any time. You just give me three days notice and I'll be there So what we're going to do we're just going to tighten the news here a little bit So he keeps he's saying, oh, well, you know, just mundane and everybody knew that but I have refuted him I showed him from the literature that this was widely accepted that alcohol was Used for medicinal purposes and from that point of view Nobody banned that it was clear that the alcohol was used for treating heart attack. And so From a medicinal point of view, it is it was indisputable yet the court and he never did tell us What's the magic here? How did the Quran alter the Quran author to? Scientifically correct statement without error. He never did explain. How are you doing this? But like I said, we are not basing our arguments Just on these two facts. He says well, this is just like praising the simpson Well, so now we see that he's made this this is exactly what the cops and now or an acronym points out Look, there's many examples I mean, there's many humanly possible ways what would explain scientific miracles run Simpsons fall under the category of c coincidence. Why? Because it was unusual. You're trying to explain something, but you just accidentally Agreed with science. So here we see that uh, tj jump T. I'm sorry tj is basically we have we have already called the cops on your arguments He has arrived too late. So telling us given this example of the copious analogy does not refute my point, but Very interesting here. He didn't deny that they do That it does agree with science. So let's move on to the next point All right, we'll kick it over to tom for two minutes as well All right, so that's really easy to debunk In 147 bc alcohol was production was prohibited in china. Oh look Chinese prevented pre-del alcohol syndrome too. Chinese must be magic So again, the fact that the Quran said banned alcohol, which is very common It's a lot of things lots of cultures banned alcohol all throughout time is not evidence This is if if midir is the one leading the debates in scientific accuracy Um, this is pretty garbage. Uh, yeah, so Lots of cultures banned alcohol. This is not in any way evidence that Islam is special. It's pretty mundane. I don't know why he even thinks this is evidence It's pretty silly like if we could get some real evidence that would be great I don't think he presented anything else. This is his only evidence. Oh, look Alcohol was prohibited in Islam. Whoa As if this means anything you just pick any culture in the world and say this is evidence for each one of those cultures because Thousands of them banned alcohol. I don't like come on Nadir You need evidence that actually distinguishes your holy book as being magic and saying that banned alcohol is doesn't do that Do you have anything else? Okay, good word Nadir for two minutes Thank you. So, um, as I have said that if you ask one out of ten people You know, maybe one out of ten people will say, yeah, alcohol is bad. So I have already refuted that argument So what we see here is that tj is running into a place where he feels safe He wants to divert your attention from the real argument at hand that these were two scientifically correct statements Let us just give it to him that other societies have also banned alcohol. Okay, good, but How how do you know what's right and what's wrong when you are plagiarizing from other sources? How do you know That uh, what to pick from when there's an ocean of scientific errors and remember what is astonishing about the Quran is from a medicinal point of view Uh, there was unquestionable that alcohol was used to treat all kind of ailments But look at the astonishing accuracy of the Quran in which it gave the correct Uh A point on alcohol the scientific position that yes, they have some benefits in it for the people But their harm is far greater than the benefit That is direct Agreement with modern science that many studies have shown that the overall health risk of drinking alcohol outweighs any benefits. So, yeah, I mean Hypothetically, you can come up with this. Sure, but man, we don't know. What is that secret sauce? What is Muhammad's doing to avoid the scientific error? So let's move on to the next point here So not only did he make two scientifically quick statements which which tj wanted to divert our attention to into other irrelevant issues But he also made a three scientifically correct statements regarding marine biology Now inside marine biology the author of the Quran let's just jump really into it very quickly Inside chapter 55 verse 20. It says that in the seas there are barriers um And then of course we now know from modern science On the link which i'm sending which i on their post based on to s.org The oceanography society to say that there are actually barriers in the sea which are called the picnic line now What do we do now call the cops? It could be any One of those possibilities. We're not saying this is a miracle based on this But what i'm showing you is once again, we have a third agreement with modern science. And so What's the possibilities that's happening? I would say let's just say 50 percent just to give it to you But I think those are my two minutes. Go ahead tj Yeah, so I debunked his argument on alcohol. Everybody bans alcohol So nothing he presented was spectacular there the fact that The Quran said that it has some benefits but causes greater harm. That's literally the reason everyone banned it So again the same of all cultures barriers in the seas. Um, this has been known since the beginning of time You can literally see where fresh water and salt water don't mix There's barriers in the ocean where everyone can see this and has been able to see this for hundreds of thousands of years So again, this is there's nothing spectacular here. Um Maybe this might be of special in the Islamic culture, but every other culture Any teenage kid would know this so none of this was special. I don't know why he thinks this is special Every culture knew this This is extremely mundane. None of this is evidence of spectacular stuff You can literally just go to the locations where there is fresh water and salt water and see them They're there big barriers between because they don't mix. This is obvious. I don't I don't know why he thinks this is special Okay, thank you. Um, okay, so I need to call you out a little bit here You know tj you've made some claims here Which really I've been kind of letting you get away with up till now But I feel like I need to confront you You're saying that the when there's a greater there's some harm in it I'm sorry the explanation given in the Quran for wide-band alcohol, which agreed with modern sun You said everybody knew it and banned it for that reason Do you have a reference to substantiate what you are saying tonight because I can assure you you don't So take 10 seconds of my time and and just answer. Yes or no. Do you have any proof for what you're saying? Yep, I just pulled up on academic source early chinese literature As many references to alcohol You know 10 seconds 10 seconds and then what I want you to do I want you to share your desk job University of Nebraska Lincoln Yeah, educational psychology papers and publications culture aspects and drinking patterns and alcohol controls in china ewan newman published in 2002 uh Yeah, it's about If you want to keep it strict, okay, so let me let me let me get let me continue with my presentation So what I want you to do I want you to not I don't want we want you to share the text and let's look at your references I can send you the reference after it. I just gave them a share Okay, but let me just turn to my point. You said that the barriers other sees this was known to people at that time Um, again, you're asking for one about the alcohol or the well, let me let me finish I'm going to give you three challenges. Okay, so you have made false claims here I want you to basically defend your your claims here. So he's also said that the That the issue of the pigment client was known to everybody and that it could be seen So, I didn't say picked up client. I said barriers in the ocean. The Quran doesn't say anything about the picked up client says barrier If you guys want to stick to the original two minutes, I just want to know if yeah, so let's not interrupt each other Okay, so as long as you accurately represent the position Okay, so he's saying then maybe this could have been referred to some other kind of barrier But yeah, the pigment client is invisible, but okay, great So let's say he was referring to islands. Maybe the Quran is referring to islands This is another example of cops has already covered this you have once arrived once again arrived on the scene too late So we are already Tabulating the fact that this could be a coincidence. So here's a problem with a coincidence problem Which are I think I'm done.  Yeah, so so I didn't say anything about islands.  He's trying to ambiguous what the Quran actually says to try and make it meet science Like most religious demagogues do but what it actually says is just there's barriers and guess what? You can see them because there's barriers between salt water and fresh water, which everyone knew about So everyone knew about these barriers Everyone knew about the waves under the sea all all of the things that are in the Quran None of it is special. None of it is unique Nadir just has to make stuff up and invent ambiguous ways to try and tie in modern science into the Quran Modern science is better than the Quran better than everything in the Quran. So I don't know his argument doesn't doesn't hold here Two minutes for Nadir. Can you can you share your can you share your desktop and provide the first reference? You stay in that You don't want to do that. I gave you the reference. You can look at it. You need to share it No, I don't no, I don't Nadir. I debunked you. I provided the reference Let us show okay. I'll take my two minutes Let us show for the record tonight that uh tj was not able to provide references for straw man Anytime anytime you get straw man, please. This is my two minutes james. No, no, no, no, we did agree on We did agree on no, we did agree on I did agree hold on we listen if you wanted if you wanted the caveat Such that if you wanted it to be that you could jump in During his two minutes, then that's something that we would have had to have known beforehand Like if there is something in which you think he's wrong you can definitely bring it up in your next Wrong isn't the issue wrong isn't the issue if he's literally Tom So tom they can't even hear you anyway if you can listen for just a moment It's sometimes subjective in terms of whether or not they're misrepresenting you or if they're actually saying that you are wrong No, no if this is not negotiable if he says I was not able to present the source and I literally just read off the source He's talking about Whether or not you were able to present it on screen So, no, no, no, no, no, no Nadir making up criteria and that I must present it on screen as Nadir being an idiot I do not need to present it on screen He does not get to say I cannot provide a source You're a moderator you're destroying your own credibility I've already told you tom. This isn't hard if he nadir fairly I can say nadir You should specify that you're talking about whether or not he's presenting it on screen That's fair for Tom to object to mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I mean, but yeah, because I'm not one of the thing I want you to know I'm not a fighter where people I can't get into scouting matches and stuff like that I get very quiet. I'm actually a very shy person. So that's why I want that two minutes So I can't fight with people is what I'm trying to tell you I can't win those type of battles So let me speak unfettered for two minutes and you can come back up and I'll clarify what I mean So shall we continue or? Sure as long as you don't lie as long as not blatantly lying after I've destroyed you sure, okay So let me let me continue So based on what you read, you know, and that's why I really want to take a look at what you're quoting from You made some really outrageous claims tonight to be very and I've been letting you get away with it You've made claim that which I have myself personally researched that all you everybody kind of banned alcohol and You've made claims like they've banned it for the exact same reason that the Koran did and this is all common knowledge You've said that the You know that this is the issues of that there and again, you've made a lot of claims I think you said something about the beard I didn't write it down But let's just start with with your claim about that about the alcohol that the reason for given was actually known to everybody But having said that it really is an irrelevant issue because if we were to entertain that thought and let's say You know We were to go with it It doesn't answer the fundamental question of tonight, which is how are the authors of the Koran? Able to with a laser light focus able to pick out the scientifically correct things out of an ocean of Scientifically inaccurate stuff That's the miracle. So even if all of what I'm presenting to you was mentioned in books of the past, which it's not by the way But even if it was you will at the end mean nothing because the scientific miracle of the Koran And that it was able to do it with a type of laser-like precision and that is incredible.   I did provide a source you can look it up He wants later. This is very very easy and I don't I'm not willing to like go through academic papers to show him that Oh, guess what alcohol causes damage everybody knew this Okay, we're in deer Thank you. Okay. So, uh, yeah, like I said, you know, like if you are not going to present academic references allow me to do so Uh, because I did present one Please Don't represent don't represent my presentation. I presented an academic source You know, come on James. I'll have to have a deal to you Nadir I There is He did cite the university of Nebraska. And so I like you might have missed that but I there is to some extent I do have to say like some of these are a little bit more concrete where it's like Uh, but I I do we'll go back to the original two minutes as agreed upon and we'll let tom Point that out in his next one. But Nadir you like it's fair for him to I don't blame tom's spirited response In terms of wanting to jump in but go ahead Nadir. You got another roughly minute and a half Sure. Okay. Thank you. Uh, so as I I'm going to share with you my reference over here Where it states over here that it was clearly used Um for medicinal purposes Uh, so again, this is we're kind of harping on a Actually just lost it here. Um Yeah, here it is It says over here that alcohol used was for a common cold to to basically from everything from the common cold Till uh dyssepsia. I'm cold. I'm quoting from line pair.com and there's many other references I can provide for you So from a medicinal point of view, this was unquestionable. Anyway, in a way, it's kind of irrelevant Because my point here is how do you figure out what's right and wrong in that ocean of mistakes? So I want to now quickly. I don't know how much how much time do I have left, uh, james You've got one minute and 10 seconds. Okay. So now let's quickly go to uh, what finished my point on the on the sea So once so we saw that it did talk about barriers in the ocean Okay, so that is scientifically correct. What else do the karan gets scientifically correct as well Inside the following verse over here it says inside, um Let me see if I can find it here um Basically, there's also an issue of something called internal waves where basically this these are waves within the ocean and um I tell you what let me do this. Like I can't find my little notes here. So Uh, in turn, there we go internal waves. There we go. Okay. These are and this is exactly what we read inside the koran inside And I can't there you go chapter 22 verse 40 it says over here It says or the likeness within the unfathomance sea which which is covered by the waves upon which are waves Over which are clouds darkness some of them upon others Where one puts his hand out he can hardly see it and for he whom Allah has not granted light for him There is no light. So there's two scientifically correct statements over here. The first one is that You know, there are internal waves and the second one is at the at the bottom of the ocean There is no light now. Let's compare that with exactly what we see from modern science and I'm quoting from the website ocean exploration and research where it says over here that um, how It's very clear that below a thousand meters receiving no light from the surface direct Correlation between the koran and modern science and I've also shown over And the thing about internal waves like I think that's my time. So that's way over my time. I think so. Let me go ahead and give it to Tom Yeah, so one that interpretation he's ambiguating it because waves upon waves is directional not depth So the the how most academics interpret that is that no, it's not saying their waves underneath waves There are waves Continuing on across the ocean is what that normally means even if it did mean there are waves upon waves like literally on top of one another The fact that there are currents under underwater again is been known by every 12th grader For the past 50,000 years You can just look under the water and you can see waves on the top and you can see the Plants underneath going back and forth like we've known this there are technical terms for this We know there are whirlpools anybody who swims down know that there's less light Under the water then there is the top people have swum down hundreds of feet to know There's very little water and every single one of them included. Oh, guess what if we go to the bottom? It's probably gonna be no light. This is not surprising. This is very mundane. It's like alcohol every eight Eight-year-old kid in history knew this apparently except the islamic community who thinks this is special You got it Nadir Okay, thank you. So It's not a matter of what we that we are calling it. Oh look how special it is Rather as I have said we are showing that there is a consistent pattern Of an agreement between the poor on and modern science Which is undeniable and like I said, if it's just like one or two occurrences that we could pass it off as nothing but You know if it's continuously well, not that is something now You have made the claim that internal waves can be easily ascertained and put into a book then I would like to refute you on that because the person who discovered internal ways of the scientist named Jesus Panetta Okay, and as we can read from the reference which from uh, whi. He's the one who determined it So basically to paraphrase what you're reading on the screen over there He had to hang off the side of a boat with technical with modern technical equipment to detect these waves now These the issue about internal ways was not known to anybody of the past It just wasn't there that information was not present. In fact, the only information we have Regarding uh by marine oceanography comes from Aristotle. That's the only source There is nothing else other than that. So for you to claim that this was somehow borrowed from another source I don't know if you did or not but uh, uh, that's not possible. So here we see three scientifically correct statements. So You also said you tried to like I think you also mentioned something about that the ways that maybe this is just ways On top or something like that That the Quran is somehow vague about it So let me let me just go very quickly and let's look at the verse again Just to make sure that we are not playing any kind of dishonest interpretation game. So let me go here real quick And we we we can look at the verse together um If I can find it Oh, yeah, okay, here we go It says or the likeness of the darkness Okay, or they are like the like darkness within an unfathomable sea In which is covered by waves upon which are waves and when you look inside the uh, the actual Inside the Quran it says inside that is basically in sea Okay, so basically Now again, maybe we could reinterpret it To make it mean. Okay. This is directional not depth Possible it could be open for multiple interpretations But the point which I want to point out one interpretation does agree with science. Go ahead Go ahead Tom Yeah, so none of this agrees with science This agrees with eight-year-old common childhood knowledge throughout all of history before science even existed So none of this is common scientific knowledge. This is common eight-year-old child knowledge Waves upon waves again known by everybody. This is not discovered by that guy This is that particular kind of thing that was discovered by that guy Every fisherman for the past 30,000 years has known there are waves upon waves because when you look In the ocean you see there are barnacles on the bottom and there are waves on the top and they go different directions Whoo, we've done it waves upon waves.  This is this is not spectacular. This is what you think is spectacular Then every single culture throughout history has a child that is smarter than Muhammad because they all knew this Oh, and I wanted to mention what else there was the You keep bringing up the point about how did they laser focus get these facts? Correct, he didn't most of the facts in the corona are factually false So there are more mistakes than correct facts and the correct facts are eight-year-old child knowledge New year Yeah, okay, so You know, let us just agree. Okay. You had a problem with ways upon ways For sure there are then let's just say two scientifically correct statements, which he has conceded to barriers Okay, there are barriers and so he said well, but that could refer to anything Well, if that's the case then that falls under the category of coincidence that this is the he Muhammad Coincidentally mentioned that there are barriers and see which he does agree with modern science But that he didn't mean to refer to the real picnic line. He was referring to something else Okay, that's a coincidence. But here's a problem with saying the coincidence You know, the problem here is coincidence is something which is unexpected. That is something which You know, uh, you don't expect but if you see the same coincidence happening multiple times Over and over again, but for example, I answered for tj how he would answer the prophecy in deuteronomy That was a coincidence. This is a coincidence. Well, no, hold on a second Coincidence is not going to work if you see the same thing happening two or three times or four times in a row There's something more Uh, uh here other than coincidence. So Let me go on to the next point which is gender determination Now he he did say that this that the scientific information is something every 12 year old or eighth grader would know But you know what I have not seen any evidence for that So I will just ask all the audience to please ignore that statement until he he shows the references for what he's talking about because You know, this is what we're here for. We need to basically Prove what we're trying to say here. So now let's talk about gender determination now science today tells us In fact, let me go ahead and share my desktop over here real quick Um Screen share over here. Oh, yeah, can you see my screen wonderful? Okay good It says over here that basically the man's sperm is what determines the gender However, the people what did the ancient people say the ancient people have all kinds of mythology about this about this thing It says that the male What would determine gender was characterized by the abundance of the superior element of fire That's what Aristotle believed in. Hippocrates said it comes from the right side of the male. That's what determines gender Even to me. I even said there's no natural causes Some people said it was by the side of the woman and the list goes on on and on all kind of scientific errors However, let us look at what the Quran says that it is he who has created the two mates the male and female from the sperm Go ahead Yes, again also common knowledge like so none of this is agreed with science at all. This is again eighth grade common knowledge stated in every culture that they say that yes the male in patriarchal societies who all say that Everything comes from the man essentially the man determines everything and they've known this about genetics because They look for the male traits when they try to pass them on to the to the kids because the dominant traits So again, also common knowledge that any farmer would know for the past 30,000 years, but none of this is special at all So, yeah, this is again just another common fact that everybody knew that is not special That general farmers and fishermen would know doesn't take a scientist and neither was wrong. I'm not saying this is a coincidence I forget neither. What were like, what are the cops things? You're now the The all the different things one of them was coincidence. What's the other one? Or ordinary no observed observed or it's something which is plagiarized or something which is scientific That he was a scientist that he was basically doing research or something. So I thought one of them was like Already common knowledge or something like surprise It was obvious. I'm sorry. It was obvious. Yeah, obvious. That's the one. So these are all obvious these go I'm not saying it's coincidence. I'm saying it's obvious all these things go in the obvious category not the coincidence category You got it. We'll kick it over to a year two minutes Okay, so as I have pointed out, I have already shown you what the ancient people You know Have said about this matter and it's very clear that this is not obvious You have all the references on your on your screen Galen Aristotle They all had scientifically inaccurate information on how the gender was determined So is this obvious? Absolutely not. Uh, and I think these are very simpleton type answers because I think what's happening is that There is a clear consistent pattern of the Quran agreeing with modern science over and over again And that's the elephant in the room Which tj is not going to be able to really answer why we see now What's interesting is on most of the points he has I've raised he never denied that this does agree with agree with science but his whole Attitude with basically it's an eighth grade common knowledge Anybody could have figured that out. But even if we were to entertain those thoughts It doesn't answer the question because if you are just doing Observation on your own if you are just doing scientific research on your own You're hanging off that boat and you're trying to look for the internal waves or the or the darkness in the sea Let's say you're doing it If you are doing scientific research that comes through trial and error Then the Quran would be filled with postulums theories hypothesis and calculations That's how you come across this type of scientific knowledge But we don't see any of that So the idea of common knowledge and just doing scientifically figuring these things out It makes no sense because we don't see any evidence of any kind of research Taking place. So here we see again the Quran once again is agreeing with modern science now Not only does the Quran agree with modern science now there's also I'm sorry go ahead, please Go ahead Tom. All right. So none of this is modern science The reason you don't see academic papers for this stuff is because it's the stuff farmers already knew Farmers know that yeah, I guess what the this sperm is what causes the sex not gender but sperm is what causes the Sexual orientation of the person and so yeah, this is this what why would they do a scientific study on this? This is like yeah, oh no, they didn't have scientific studies back in Aristotle's time And so they just you know, we're farmers and just did it it without that and oh no, guess what the Fishermen knew that there are waves under waves. What no scientific studies. Oh my god waves under the waves magic So none of this is scientific knowledge. This is a great knowledge. So you don't need studies for this stuff because it's super obvious Well, secondly again, I covered this before that the Quran doesn't laser point get these right These are extremely mundane facts anybody could have gotten these right Nadir points out some people got it wrong. Oh, some people got it wrong Therefore everyone must have gotten them wrong except Muhammad, which is clearly a composition division fallacy So the fact that he can find some isolated incidents of some people who wrote differently or thought differently, which is You can do that for anything Isn't actually evidence that Muhammad was special here He just he just didn't get it wrong like some other people got it wrong Common knowledge is things that most people get right So none of this is special none of this is science. He didn't present any novel predictions. No scientific research Just a bunch of mundane things that pretty much everybody knew at the time it was what fetal alcohol syndrome waves and barriers All stuff everyone knew and can literally see at the age of eight Um, I think those those are like that's like really really presented and sperm that those are the things he presented Is that these are evidence? They're just common facts that pretty much everybody knew at the time Okay, good over Nadir Well, there's really no need to respond to that because all of this is fabrication He said people knew about barriers in the sea. He said people knew about Uh, the gender the sperm was a determining what determines gender. There is no Factual basis for the things tom's jump is talking about now I would love for you to please share the reference for whatever your if I am wrong share the reference for whatever you are quoting from but The whole argument is ridiculous to begin with because if that is really what you are doing You are copying from other people That's a very stupid thing to do and the reason why is because if you're copying from them You are going to copy their scientific errors into your book Okay, now remember tj started out with claiming to the go wrong counter to good science No, wait a second. We can debate that and of course he will be refuted on that But the scientific errors for you to point to us are the scientific errors related to seas the scientific errors related to alcohol because if you are copying from these sources There's no way you cannot copy those errors But when it comes to alcohol when it comes to seas three scientifically correct statements sees there are no Scientific errors and it's only scientific accuracy and it was not even known By the people of the past. I've not seen any evidence of that So anyway, let's just go on to the next verse the Quran said that ants actually talk inside chapters 27 verse 18 They said oh ants enter your dwellings that you So that you're not crushed by Solomon now these are ants talking in the Quran now It's interesting people were chiming that oh look this is scientific error This is j smith claiming that this is a scientific error However, that's been debunked by the following reference All you got to do is google keyword search here ants talk Scientists have confirmed that ants do talk and not only do they talk but As we see from the following article, which is I think on feist news Yeah, I said the sounds made by mature ants serve two functions the research to this as One is a signal alarm like we read in the Quran. Go ahead, please. So ants talking is a common thing in mythology It's an american indian mythology. It's in norse mythology. It's in most mythologies So the fact that these you put the words together that ants talk is again Common knowledge. So when I say common knowledge here, I don't mean they literally had scientific proof It's a commonly held belief just like is just like Muhammad believed it because it was a commonly held belief So they knew it equally as well as Muhammad knew it None of them had scientific evidence Muhammad was just making stuff up just like everybody else is making stuff up Based on their intuitions. So they all had an equal basis to conclude this was true as Muhammad did So none of it is special You know, you made a claim that the ants talked was inside some mythology Well, the first two points which I have what I want to raise on that is If you are claiming that Muhammad is copying from mythology Then we had and that's a really dumb thing to do because then you would copy over Not only the mythological stuff from the source you are claiming he's copying from But you're also going to copy over the scientific errors. So the miracle of the Quran is not just that um You know the Quran agrees with science But the miracle of the Quran is also that he did it That there are no scientific errors related to ants. So so that is an elephant in the room That's the that's the freight truck, which is going to hit tj very sooner And he doesn't even know it's coming. So the question tonight is how are you doing all of this copying? And I do want to see your references. You're saying that that this came from mythology You claim that these are all commonly held beliefs without showing any evidence to back up what you're saying It's almost like you are just making it up as you go And so I don't want to accuse you of that But if I don't see something in front of me to substantiate that What else am I supposed to assume? So, uh, you know, I really would like to see some evidences for your claim This is common knowledge and just everyone just believed like this time So yeah, again, these are just so mundane and I'm not even going to spend the time to actually find me Like references of oh in a religion they had a story where ants talked because this is super rare in Mythology that animals talk. Yeah, that's pretty common Um, so yeah, there's nothing special here. He mentioned copying like he said that a lot and I never said anything about copying So I think what I think the argument he's trying to make is that If Muhammad copied from other traditions, then he'd copy the mistakes along with the correct facts But he's I never said he was he's just taking common human intuition Which is a thing and he's taking the same common intuition everybody else has all throughout the world So it's not like copying from a text or anything. That was never a part of the argument So again, I'm not sure what his point was there You got it in a year Yeah, as I said there's you know, I have asked him repeatedly tonight I would love to see some of the evidences for your claim. This is all common knowledge and I have research of stuff myself And I have never come across Uh, the information which tj is is claiming here. It's just seems like it's making up Uh, but anyways, uh, so let me so and I don't know how much time we have left Uh, but we still by the way tj when you do talk talk to me about Deuteronomy 1818 How are we supposed to understand that so one more point? Which I'm going to make which because I think I have clearly argued a clear airtight case that Decide that we are seeing a consistent pattern throughout the Quran of it agreeing with modern science over and over And over again that's something cops cannot explain now. What also what is amazing about the Quran Is that it also corrects the scientific errors of the vital for example For example inside the vital It states over in the following verse that the mustard seed is the smallest seed you plant into the ground This is mark chapter 30 verse 32 and it says this is the smallest of all seeds In Matthew 13 32 the only problem is the mustard is not the smallest seed Uh, the orchid seeds are much more smaller now What's interesting is that the Quran also uses a mustard seed analogy now the question is if Muhammad is copying Well, uh, he's he's probably going to copy that Scientific error as well. So the car the author of the Quran uses a mustard seed analogy as well But guess what you don't find in there You don't find that it is the smallest seed because that is a scientific error as we read inside chapter 21 verse 47 it says That and we place the scales in the day of resurrection No soul will be treated unjustly at all And if there is even the weight of the mustard seed will bring it forth now. It's interesting here Notice the scientific error which we found in the bible is not present in the Quran. So that's one scientific Error corrected not only that but the bible talks about a universal time So I just googled ants in mythology. You got the mermidans in Greece You got the japan the dream of anosuke with talking ants Zeus became an ant and spoke to somebody Um Yeah, we got oh the hopi the hopi talking ant people got those ants. So yeah, this is Oh pwned next Oh, I don't like I I agree the mustard seed is not a small seed and I agree their mistakes in the bible I agree Go ahead Statements left Okay, so let's just um, let's just uh, look at the hopi the ant people This is about this is a legend of the ant people the hopi So you're saying that mohammed read the hopi Ant people and that he basically Extrapulated that ants actually do talk now if you look at the legend myth Which we read out there. There's no comparison to the Quran and what we read in the Quran So again, let us just entertain this you see the thing why the copying from legends and myths is such a Pathetic explanation is because you're going to copy a lot of the Scientifically inaccurate information not only that but you'll also copy a lot of the stuff in that myth Which can show you plagiarized from it. So I know we are almost out of time So let me sum up my my presentation over here because I think I have accumulated enough evidence to basically now make the claim tonight That the Quran is a scientific miracle Why because if there is a clear and undeniable consistent pattern of the Quran agreeing with modern science Even if we were to entertain all of what TJ was saying it doesn't explain how you're going to get the scientifically correct stuff without making a mistake So except all of what TJ says it won't answer the question tonight Okay, so we have shown you that there are two scientifically correct statements on the Quran two on the answer and three on on on C's and one talking about the gender And not only that but we talked about the prophecies here And I didn't get a chance to finish my presentation here, but I have already given enough So let's just entertain everything TJ says You are not going to get scientifically correct statements without Mistakes if we listen to what TJ said and just accept everything he says at face value And so this is where his big failure is if people are just calming and if you're copying common knowledge of people at that time You're going to copy the common knowledge of errors and the ridiculous things people believe at that time like alcohol for medicinal purposes And other than that you're going to copy that stuff as well So if you are copying common knowledge and the 12 year old stuff which people can figure out That's a doomed So so you keep saying if we accept everything TJ said and then mentions something TJ never said like I never mentioned copying Like I didn't say like if if Muhammad actually copied from the Hopi people that would be really impressive That would be good evidence that this was a holy book. How did he how did he get to the Hopi people? That would be really good So he made up With his his own human intuition because he was just a human and not special in any way He was a human and he used his human intuition Which is the same intuition that most people have all through a time period To come up with stuff and most of the stuff was wrong So so Nadir is right that if you copy human intuition, that's a doomed prospect because everything you say is The vast majority of it's going to be wrong Which in the Quran it is that's why there's so many scientific errors in the Quran So I mean I agree with him. Yes Copying intuition is not a reliable method Which is why there are so many errors the fact that he got a few things correct Like most people do with their intuitions because most people get a few things, correct Isn't evidence this is magic Like the Hopi people said they're talking ants. Does that mean that they're right about the few select things? They got right no and Nadir keeps mentioning that he got every fact about ants wrong or right every fact about ants, right How many facts about ants are there in the Quran? What two three four Like four random arbitrary facts made up by people's intuition And you're ambiguity this to mean something that correlates to Reality when it's really just intuition This is not impressive like I don't even know Four four random facts about ants that mimic people's human intuition for the past 30 000 years and somehow this is magic You got these are our last statements. So two minutes for Nadir two minutes And then we will go into tom's last two minutes and then we'll go into the q&a Okay, so let me just correct him about the ants the ant people he keeps saying that these are talking ants These what this is a legend about the ant people Okay, and he's saying okay, he read this Or I think this is what he's saying he read this and then he extrapolated ants do talk and they actually signal alarms To scientifically correct statement and he only put that in the Quran What is destroying tom jump? And what he's not able to answer He said oh, there's a lot of scientific errors in the Quran, which we will debate that no problem We're not going to run like the christians do We will debate that but in order for you to be successful in this debate You must show scientific errors related to ants Because you're copying from that ridiculous sources, right? Or you don't copy over there? No, I said not copying no And so please let me finish my presentation and if you're copying Anything about seas or anything about oceans or or anything about alcohol The scientific errors must be related to to those issues because you're copying from someone's book Or some common knowledge of the people and that's a scientific miracle of the Quran This is the evidence. We know he's not copying Because if you're copying you're going to copy scientific errors related to what you are copying from But he was saying oh, look there's scientific errors related to geocentricism No, the first one knows it's not but secondly that's not going to answer the question here So I think a clear airtight case has been made. It is not answered deuteronomy 1818. How do you explain that? That Muhammad, you know that you've got the similarities between Moses and Muhammad both warrior moses both warrior prophets They were theocrats they established a state and they conquered the holy land in the exact same way So when we look at Islam, it's not just science, but it's prophecy as well And we see a consistent pattern of agreement with modern science And when we listen to the possible explanations for tj, they don't make any sense time All right, tom for two minutes So again, I didn't bring up anything about copying. I don't think I don't think Muhammad copied from the hopi people that they lived Many thousands of miles away Obviously he did not copy from the hopi people The point is that human intuition is to make stuff up an anthropocentric fallacy where you say, oh, look, there's an animal to talk Knowing that ants cause alarms is very easy if you stick a stick into an ant Den lots of ants come out like how did they know where they all psychically in tuned with the thing? No Obviously, there has to be something the ants are doing to send the signal to other ants common knowledge Everybody knew this for the past 30 000 years Obviously, there's some communication metric between ants that when you poke an ant den lots of ants come out This is obvious again common knowledge everybody knew not special And with that we will jump into the q&a do want to let you know a couple of things folks first Both of our guests are linked in the description We do appreciate these guys and they're also linked in the podcast episode for this debate as all of our Debates end up on the modern day debate podcast within 24 hours of the debate happening And you can find us on fine podcast apps everywhere One last thing we are absolutely pumped for debate con which is pictured at the bottom right of your screen We have both invited tom and nadir as speakers as an example another one Just confirmed destiny will be there as well. We are absolutely thrilled for this three day event coming up in january You don't want to miss it folks. It's going to be in person in texas and Nearly all of the debates will be live streamed. So if you can't make it in person, which you can It's as basically an option But if you can't make it in person, you'll nonetheless get to see the debates live sunflower. Thanks for your first question says nadir Moderate alcohol consumption has a well documented Reduction of heart disease risk. There is no harm in consuming two to three drinks a week Yeah, so that is a scientific error and I'm glad you raise this because you're showing just how easy it is to Get it wrong, you know So if you start listening to people and start taking the common knowledge of the time you will make the error You just made I will quote from you the cnn article which states that Many studies have shown that the overall health risk of drinking alcohol Far outweigh any benefit which is a direct agreement with the quran in chapter two verse two hundred and nineteen They have some benefit for the people But their harm is far greater than their benefit I believe the islamic debate winning argument of tonight Is the fact that the quran doesn't have the scientific errors Which are needed if we are to entertain any kind of intuition Copying or any of the mechanisms which tj has recommended because all that stuff comes through trial and error You got it in thank you very much for this question coming in from sigma any says or sorry that's Stupid hardened turkey says for amad you've only mentioned retro solutions stuff We already know what does the quran say as to why zero point energy in a vacuum doesn't cause a large Cosmological constant for example So I guess you know, this is a fallacy of where you you know Do you want the quran to mention specific scientific fact, but no it doesn't have to Or because the next guy is going to want something different the next guy and the quran's going to entertain all of these fallacies I think what's happening here and if people are running away from the there is a debate winning argument And that is that the quran doesn't have the scientific errors needed To entertain the possibilities which tj is suggesting through intuition whether Whatever mechanism he or just figuring things out all that comes to trial and error Then you can arrive at the at some of these statements, but we don't find that and that is the evidence We know the quran is a scientific miracle Uh, and he's still you know tj you still haven't talked to us about deuteronomy 1818. How do you explain that prophecy? Go ahead uh what I think he's he's fielding is he's giving you his own question during the q&a We don't really get off track too much, but tom if you want a chance to respond I can give you what is what is deuteronomy 18 Oh, yeah, remember we were talking about it talked about a prophet like moses coming and we see muhammad is matching Yes, yes, we're very at the intro moses didn't exist. So prophecy defeated Moses is a historical figure who is considered to be legendary mythical by the vast majority of consensus It's not he didn't didn't exist.  There'd be like have to be like a wizard like harry potter It's going to be a problem This question coming in from do appreciate it. Manic pandas says i'm guessing that nadir disagrees on many levels with trans Substantiation, but does he think it is also immoral for consuming alcohol? I'm not sure what he means by trans Substantiation, but I think you know what is amazing about the coran. It gave the right dosage I mean many people will come to you with a different dosage amount of how much alcohol should be Consumed some people say none at all some people say some but the coran got it right and what we actually didn't hear from tj Also is how do you explain this amazing impact the coran has on people? That women are 50 times less likely than the global average muslim women that is to give birth to a fetal alcohol child What is it special about the coran which is different from all of these other books? I mean on people who have actually did say don't drink alcohol So we never heard an explanation on that go ahead misogyny Women in the middle a muslim community are also 50 times less likely to drive to vote Have a lower life expectancy less freedoms. So it's misogyny. Is this the difference? This one coming in from do appreciate your question zagros oscan says notice how nadir uses royal quote We unquote when speaking of himself Yeah, I don't know why I do that Next up the sunflower says nadir. Can you explain the specific prescriptions or directions? And how to use alcohol medicinally for heart disease from the coran Well, so that's I think this is the amazing part about the coran I mean the first of all using alcohol medicinally has all been almost banned by all of the medical World because we now know that alcohol treating heart attacks strokes This is unscientific and there is no benefit in doing that So when the coran banned alcohols that gave the right scientifically correct state point position on alcohol It did away with all the scientific errors. So this is something which is amazing but I think that What is undeniable in this debate and and I think we that there is a consistent Pattern of making scientifically correct statements without making a mistake an ignorant man Who knows who he was talking about something he doesn't know anything are wrong Anything about cannot consistently get it right all the time That's really what I think is is is the argument which has been sustained in this debate This one coming in from want to let you know mic q 9 2 2 If you happen to have a question that was supposed to be attached in your chat I did not see it. So shoot me another chat and let me know. I just don't want to miss it Chris gammon says nadir. I'm not muslim Do you really expect me to be impressed that the author of your book notice that too much alcohol is bad and wrote it down Uh, no not by that one statement Uh, I do I do want you to be impressed by the fact that the author of the coran avoided the scientific errors Related to alcohol at that time I want you to be impressed by the fact that there is something special about the coran That not only does it condemn alcohol, which is scientifically corrected either two scientifically correct statements on that But not only that but it has something special about it Which saves women from fetal alcohol syndrome because other people have condemned it in the past It didn't they don't have the type of results which we see with the coran. I want you to be Impressed by the fact it's just not alcohol is a consistent pattern of making scientifically correct statements without error That you should be impressed with You got it and thank you very much for your question. This one coming in from benjamin iota says Why do muslims say that muhammad? Split the moon and rode on a mythical donkey called barak when nasa said the moon was not split ever in our history No, well nasa never said that the moon was never split In history they have never made that assertion I think what he was referring to is some people said that there was a crack in the moon. Therefore This is proof that the moon was split. However They were refuting the claim that there's any kind of fissure or crack inside the moon. That's that we don't see the evidence of that but You know, this is a this is a wonderful debate. I would love to have does the port on Contradict modern science now if you know anything about me I'm leading that debate on this topic and I will accept any challengers to come and debate me but what I've found is that The atheist community as well as a christian find this debate to be Unwinnable and they are the ones not us who are running away from that debate challenge And we are in hot pursuit of them So don't think we're afraid of the scientific errors like the david woods and people like that If there's an atheist out there that wants a piece of nadir on that particular topic Let us know look at him. He is calling you out. He is taunting you also Go ahead correction though. This nasa did actually say that there is no evidence the moon was ever split in half It was actually a response they have actually said What I want to also mention folks if you happen to be against first amendment auditors I'm taking a quick sidetrack for a moment because there's someone who really wants to make the case for police audits namely videotaping the police to hold them accountable and They would love an opponent However, we can't find anybody who's against this movement called first amendment auditors slash police auditors cop watchers You name it. So let us know if you are actually a critic of that sovereign citizen movement as it's also called Benjamin iota. Thanks for your other question said all these claimed Muslim scientific miracles were literally known a long time by the greeks and romans This info is nothing special and not divine Yeah, so that we have not seen any evidence of that In fact, I made sure that the evidence which I have presented tonight was not known By any of the greeks or the romans of that time So these were just assertions made in the debate I've asked for people for you know, you do please share your screenshot or to show us the references And so but even if we were to entertain that possibility It's pointless It's useless because we can win the debate by pointing out if you're copying from the greeks and the romans Well, then you're going to copy the greek and roman scientific errors related to seas alcohol marine biology Into the quran. There's no way you are not going to be able to do that However, we don't find that in the ground. So we know this is not a copy job for the lack of error And that is something which I believe in the debate winning argument You got a day and thank you very much for your question. Benjamin iota strikes again He says they use vague verses and bend the words to their own interpretations of scientific miracles If it was really from god, he would have been accurate um, okay. Well, you know, I I don't believe that was one of One of the one of the objections made by tj We have looked at the verse for pertaining to alcohol tj agrees the quran condemns alcohol and yes, this is a scientifically acceptable position tj agrees that there is word for word agreement without any interpretation game scripture bending or any kind of dishonest tactics on the right position of alcohol Which the science says that many studies have shown that the overall health risk of drinking alcohol outweighs any benefits That's what science says The quran says they have some benefit for the people, but their harm is far greater than their benefit Full stop notice. I'm not touching the verse. I'm gonna say, okay. Well, this verse means let's look at it from a metaphorical Allegorical way. Uh, I'm not playing any interpretation game. And I think tj did not raise that objection with me. Go ahead Chris Cameron says nadir, you said these scientific claims are quote laser focused Unquote then you cite the actual text which mentioned which mentions quote Waves upon waves unquote, which is remarkably vague Yeah, yeah, I think I think so I gotta go back and look at ways upon waves So that was actually a good point So but as far as the other one then again, I didn't even get a chance to finish my presentation But yes, he the the questioner is right. So I that one needs to go back on the drawing board That's I gotta tell you that's refreshing. We rarely get a speaker who will say that's right. That's a good point So benjamin iota says the prophet of islam said that whichever gender finishes first during sex determines the gender of the baby And that is scientifically inaccurate Whichever gender finishes first. No, I don't believe there's any reference like that Uh, but like I said, you know, we are more than willing to debate the Quran and Allegory scientific errors and what I'll ask that question or find me someone to debate with There should have been a hundred debates on that topic. I'm ready to do that every week any every week I can do one on which that finishes first or Yeah, I know which There's there's no reference on that and I think I might know what he's talking about but that's a misquotation of the text But anyways, we'll talk about that later. Uh, but let's let's stick with the scientific miracle argument You got it nugget man says really atheism guys. Where are my christian brothers? I guess that was just addressed to the chat. I'm not sure youth the fro dilemma says nadir Can you define mundane and would you consider a collection of mundane facts? evidence for a god Let's say that they aren't mundane but significant as you claim would that be sufficient evidence for an omnipotent god Well, first of all, that was you know, when we talked about the Quran condemning alcohol That is not mundane. We I have already shown you the scientific literature in which they've pointed out the significance of that Um, and and so for you to come and say this is mundane is that would be a scientific error actually You know, the thing is science in general is boring and mundane But when you when you look at each and every one of these facts, you can say, okay, well, that's not significant to me This is not significant to me But when you start adding it together What was not denied in tonight's debate was there is an agreement between the Quran and science which is consistent And it happens over and over and again and cops cannot explain that telling us that this is mundane Well, first of all, that's uh, that I see that as kind of a nefarious malicious interpretation Because you don't want to agree with the islamic argument which I believe is sustained here that there is a clear and consistent pattern in the Quran of agreeing with science You got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from native atheist You got a fan out there says another win for t jump with the hard rock hand sign Waiso religious says not the point Quran claims a human understood Not sure what they meant on that You guys got what that might be referring to Did they ask a previous question that Nadir responded to and they were responding to that That was the first one that I saw from them unless I missed. Um, I don't I don't think I missed it though We may let me know why so religious in the chat if I uh in terms of the context for that Benjamin iota in the meantime says if islam is correct, there should Be not a single scientific inaccuracy within its text Then why did nasa confirm the moon was never split? Well, no, I I think that's a misreading of what happened, but I do agree Uh inside the Quran is 100% in agreement with modern science. There's no and we've debated that many times look at my last debate I did With a positive profit What nasa said is just debunking the claim that people are claiming that there's actual some kind of rift or crevice In the moon showing that it has been split. They're saying no, we don't find any evidence of this But they they're not going to make the claim that the that the moon was never split They're they will never make such a claim. So their Quran is in complete harmony with modern science You got it. And thank you very much for your question. Zagros Ozkan says why did moa Did it with uh, oh, okay, I think they're saying why did Muhammad have Sensual relations with a nine I think they are referring to a nine-year-old as this objection sometimes comes up Well, this is off topic. We are talking about the scientific miracles of the Quran I would ask to please address the argument was really the questioners are not addressing the main argument Which is how what did you know the issue of making a consistent pattern of making scientifically correct statements without mistakes That's what I'm hoping that that questioners should start talking about God. I'd like to know the answer to that You got it. There's one coming in from benjamin iota says didn't the prophet Muhammad say that eating seven Dates will protect you from poison. That is scientifically inaccurate No, I don't believe there's any statement like that. And this first of all, this is not in the Quran You know, and I think they're talking about the ajwa date But again, this is not talking about the scientific miracles of the Quran I think we need to stick with the topic here So i'll ask once again focus on the what i'm presenting as evidence for the scientific miracles of the Quran You got to this one from chris gammon says Nadir the Quran says quote if there is even the weight of a mustard seed on quote the contact Context suggests the mustard seed is the smallest or lightest item i.e iota Uh, so basically this is an interpretation. You see, uh, so this is very interesting now We know what was so now people are playing an interpretation game where okay, they're saying okay The Quran doesn't state that is the smallest seed, but i'm going to interpret it into the text to mean that So now this is very significant. Why? Because who's playing that dishonest interpretation game? Is it the muslims? Look, we heard the whole debate tonight. TJ never once cited me Oh, you're reading science into the text. You are just putting your spin onto the verses of the Quran Allah Akbar that is another win for us by the way Everything I stated was right there in the text and so when the person who made that he's just putting a nefarious spin onto the text of the Quran Uh, to to try to interpret it in a way to make it disagree with science This one from youth afro dilemma coming back says nadir. I would consider significant facts Unknown to the people at the time as evidence However, if there is one inaccuracy isn't that sufficient evidence the Quran wasn't revealed by a god Right, this goes back to the debate on the scientific error of the Quran I'm ready for this debate. Let's do it, you know, but what I keep saying look I have already approached the atheists and the christians and others in them come Let's debate this they are the ones running because they see it as an unwinnable debate They know they will be defeated and that's why they're not coming forward to debate this topic with me Because they've seen the debates in the past and they have been defeated on it So you need to take this good will of yours and take it to them and ask why are those people running away? Mango tea. Thanks for your question. It says nadir. Why do you need a book to tell you how to live your life? Are you? Uh that in need of it that you need to be told to live every aspect of your life Hmm see these are decisions which are not made by me I looked at the Quran and I've seen the good which the Quran has brought for example One example of that was a Quran Saved millions of children from fetal alcohol syndrome But not only that but the Quran also started a scientific revolution Which all the whole world has benefited from so when I look at all the good this book has done for mankind I know by that's called the the golden age of Islam or which you could read about This really convinces me that the Quran Is a right book to follow and just as it will have it improved other people's lives It will also improve yours if you give it a chance You got it two seconds while I destroy someone in the chat Folks, we told you not to spam the chat I just destroyed a fellow for spouting spam in the chat and it gives me a lot of pleasure Mango tea also says nadir if you follow the Quran is it true that you become lazy ignorant and angry every every follow Ur of the Quran have those traits Okay, that one was pretty barb. I wish I would have read that before reading it out loud. So sorry I'm like Ron Burgundy up here, but we'll give you a chance to respond to that barbed question comment nadir So I guess uh, what are you saying that if you read the Quran it makes you a lousy miserable person However, this actually this claim has actually been debunked by science Uh, there's a study which I'm going to pull up for you In which they have pointed out that the people who have shown we've had the most happy satisfied lies are actually muslims And um, in fact, uh, what I'll do, uh, let me see if I can find that real quick for you here. Um So anyways, I'll pull it up later, but um So so so I guess what my point here is I don't think there's any truth to to that claim go ahead You got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from sunflowers Nadir does the Quran permit the use of alcohol for medicinal purposes and if so How specifically does it tell us to do so? I know that sounds like a duplicate question That's actually the second time they asked it. So maybe they didn't know they asked a duplicate, but there are two Yeah, so the so from a scientific point of view as I've shown you the scientists Say that the overall if you look at alcohol overall The harm outweighs any benefit. So from a medicinal point of view Uh, it is it should not be used and the Quran actually got it scientifically correct So anyway, I just wanted to show the one study which I've shown to debunk the last person playing It says muslims have the highest life satisfaction They have feelings of oneness that trumps christians buddhas and yogi studies suggest So no the Quran doesn't make you a miserable person You got it and we do have several more questions I just want to remind you folks our guests are linked in the description as we really do appreciate these guys And you can hear more from them if you're like, hmm, I want to hear more Where can I hear more? Well, their links are waiting for you down below And that includes if you're listening via the modern day debate podcast episode Mike q 9 to 2 says nadir What would you consider the strongest scientific miracle or argument according to your view? Yeah, you know, I think well, of course what I believe is The consistent pattern is number one, but I think there's also one more which I did not Get a chance to really talk about and that is the fact that the Quran You know started a scientific revolution. In fact, just quoting. Let me share my desktop over I just got to show you what I'm talking about over here. Um You know, this is this is what this is what historians basically say So what is the golden age of Islam is where all western advance advances in civil engineering mathematics chemistry and medicine and astronomy Were founded upon the medieval Sciences of Islam the new york times actually wrote an article about this It's a commanded by the Quran to seek knowledge and read nature for the science the creator It inspired by a treasure trove of ancient greek learning Muslims created a society that the middle ages Was the scientific center of the world? This is you know, there's what Muhammad and Islam has brought to the world. Therefore It's just not scientific accuracy But the Quran and Islam has done a great good for the world. And so I think that is one of the most powerful sentences You got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from mark reid Pardon my having missed your question said nadir. Why does the Quran say that sperm is made of congealed blood and comes from between the backbone and ribs congealed blood And comes from the so these are two different claims So basically the first one is actually considered to be a scientific miracle In fact, uh, many scientists have actually talked about this word where it talked that the Quran talked about You know that it called it um that the human embryo Basically goes through what is known as a clot stage. Okay, so let's let's go ahead and take a look at that Real quick. I think some people have said now here are some of the this statement about the human embryo Basically going through what is known as a clot stage. Actually it is more than just a clot The word actually means more than just clot. It means leech-like substance. It also means something which claims Here are a list of some of the uh, what's it called? Embryologists which have talked about the scientific accuracy of what you are thinking is a scientific error Which you see on on the screen. Dr. Keith moore e marshal johnson tvn per uh per slide and so This description which you are finding in the Quran has amazed the scientific world because a this is something which is scientifically accurate You got it. And thank you very much for your question coming in from chloe mclean says Nadir if granted the scientific Accuracies would you also acknowledge the scientific inaccuracies in the Quran or would you say it's 100% accurate? Well, yeah, so I'm leading the debate on that topic like I told you But you know the problem is that the atheist Has lost the debate on that. So now all of them are dropping out of the contest one by one. So now If you don't see any debates on the topic, that's not our fault. We have won that debate We have proved the Quran to be in complete harmony with modern science And we are now asking the people like I mentioned david wood earlier for these people to come forward Don't run away, you know and debate us on this topic So I would ask for all of you guys to go back to them and tell them come forward Nadir is ready to accept all the challenges this one from mike menzee says hey t jump Literally just hopped on this stream to let you know god is real and the earth is flat Don't make it awkward If ever was there's a Whatever one that I ever thought would have wondered if that was a poll That's one, but I will give you a chance to respond in case they're serious tom Well to be fair. I mean at least the flat earthers present better arguments than Banning alcohol is evidence of god Nadir are you going to take that? Oh, I'm sorry Yeah, I mean I was supposed to yeah, uh, so banning alcohol is evidence for god is of course a straw man And and this is goes back to the point where you know what tj is doing He's going to a place where he feels safe the when I talked about alcohol being banned. It is scientifically correct I've already told you cops can explain it But it is a consistent pattern and what you failed to prove tonight Is scientific errors related to any of the scientifically correct statements, which I pointed out If you can't show scientific errors on those issues then this can't be a copy job This can't be just figuring things out This just can't be common knowledge of the time because all those mechanisms is going to lead you to error So that is the islamic debate winning argument It's not so much in what is scientifically accurate But the fact that there are no scientific errors and for that you were not able to answer This one coming in from for on salas good to see you again says fun fact One ant species is exclusively female researchers have yet to find a male of that species m Smithy the queen. I think that's the name of the species the queen ant reproduces asexually so all offspring are clones of the queen Did you know that tom? No, it's I wonder how it overcomes the problem with genetic cloning because that usually causes issues Juicy and thank you very much for your question. Chloe strikes again Pounding her fist on the table. She says nadir You can look at a multitude of books that have scientific truths in it What makes the Quran so special because it has a few as well not unlike other books Because it doesn't have just a few it has a lot and is a consistent pattern, which was established tonight Yeah, you could find scientifically correct statements in other books That is true, but all you gotta do is call the cops Cops can explain all of the scientifically correct statements in the other books with exception of one, I think And but again, I'm still debating about that So the but even if there's like let's say one or two other books Which are have this type of scientific evidence great. That doesn't disprove anything. I say wonderful Why should I be an atheist? Why should if if the hindi scriptures are are also scientifically miraculous This is all the more evidence that there's a god So I don't know why I would want to be an atheist if of what you're saying is true Juicy mango tea says nadir Is it true that the golden age of islam was due to the fact that islam conquered areas that were already scientifically advanced And then when islam was accepted those areas slowly went backward Uh, no, that's not true. That is, uh, you know pseudo history You can kind of call it. I've already I have already quoted from you The new york times article and there's many references I can I can quote for you All of the historians are in unanimous agreement that let me just give you the quote again All western advanced advances in civil engineering mathematics chemistry medicine astronomy were founded upon the medieval science of islam Uh, the new york times article I quoted said commanded by the quran to seek knowledge Is what has led to the scientific revolution? Not what you have stated So a lot of people, you know, they don't want to accept that so they come up with these ulterior Explanations, but these are not historical what the historians agree on You got it. And thank you very much for your question sunflower says Nadir alcohol has certainly saved millions of lives via hand sanitizers and general disinfectant Why does the quran forbid that if there's no consumption? Uh, I'm not sure I understand the question alcohol is in hand sanitizers hand sanitizer saves lives alcohol alcohol is banned by islam therefore islam bans hand sanitizer Well, you know when we talk about alcohol being banned We're talking about drinking alcohol. Uh, that is banned. Um So so we can like for example, I actually use uh, like this mouthwash which contains alcohol in it. Um But I don't drink it. So from that perspective, um, it is permissible to to to use You got it. Thank you very much and this question from Como jcl says t-jump. What are your favorite inaccuracies in the quran? And to be fair nadir will give you a chance to rebut those Uh, my favorite ones. I have no idea like I like I like the distance to the moon ones where it says the moon is like I think it was closer further Further away than the sun that one's pretty funny Nadir do you have thoughts I'll give you a chance to respond just because it's uh pertinent to your worldview All I've read these so-called scientific errors in the quran and they all they all fall flat on their face There is no verse which tom which which tom jump was actually mentioned like that in the quran But the wonderful thing about it is at least we are willing to debate these topics as I mentioned earlier There are many so-called apologists who run away from this topic So uh, at least you could give me a pat on the back. I'm coming forward with this debate You got it and wanna I do have one more one or two more questions But I want to point your attention to the poll in the chat folks. I'm intrigued. I put I asked a question This is a poll in the chat. What debates would you most want to see at the january in-person debate conference Featuring t-jump and nadir as they've both been invited The options were muslim versus atheist as well as atheist versus christian and muslim versus christian The most popular was actually muslim versus christian I'm surprised. I thought it was going to be muslim versus atheist, but that was actually second place And then third place with atheist versus christian Pretty juicy and let me see if there's a last question. Chloe mclean says Nadir, I'm confused You seem to answer that the Quran was completely true yet. You didn't want to talk about t-jump's criticism You seemed unwilling to talk about anything that quote you didn't bring up Well, I think if you're referring to the alleged scientific errors, I can't do both debates all in one night I can do one either we talk about scientific errors or we talk about the scientific miracles I can't balance both of them. It's just way too difficult You got it. And thank you very much for your question. This one coming in from Chloe mclean strikes yet again like lightning says a big thank you to all three of you for tonight. I enjoyed the debate Thanks, lowy Absolutely, and let me just see if there are any last ones that i'm missing here I know that it's late for you, especially nadir. You're over there in florida. So it's got to be already it's going on That would be uh 11, right? Yeah, yeah a little And tom in good old minnesota It must be getting late there tom, eh? yep You said you're bringing destiny to the thingy destiny has already agreed to come to the in-person conference As well as I mean, I don't know I invited you guys. What do you think are you guys? I'm done Can I debate destiny on morality and that would be fun? That may work You've debated him on that before in case you forgot, but if you want to do it again Yeah, because I've updated my argument quite significantly since then. I'd like to hear his thoughts on it now that would be Why would be interesting very juicy tom and I'm open to it as well as it should be very juicy folks I've got to tell you we are pumped about it and we do plan on hosting like a trillion debates Many of which will be live. This is going to be in january Specifically the 15th through the 17th so middle of january We're going to get more details out as it comes and we're hoping because we in order to cover the cost of the venue We are actually going to be selling tickets this time the first time we've ever sold tickets and kind of the first time we've ever had uh people able to attend in person almost because most of our stuff happened during the Covid where we actually had just two people in a room debating and we didn't have an audience So I am excited about that folks and if you want to in the meantime before that juicy conference happens Which we are pumped about and so hit that subscribe button and that notification bell as well And that way when that conference goes down and when it is just rocking the internet You will get a notification and that way you don't miss any of the action But also want to let you know both of our guests are linked in the description So if you want to hear more and you're like, I don't want to wait until the conference though How can I hear more of nadir or tom? Well, you can click on their links below last minute question from taylor show Let me know if I pronounce it taylor. Thanks for your question says nadir. You never answered two questions one are there any Scientific errors in the Quran and two. What is the most significant scientific claim? So, um, yeah as far as are there any scientific errors in the in the Quran You know, um, no, there's none. I think the debates which we've had in the past Clearly demonstrate and prove that The problem which i'm seeing you know was which in the chat Which this is a recurring question coming up. Where are the debates? Where are the debates on scientific errors in the Quran? Now, I've repeated the it is the atheists who have lost the debate It is that christians who have lost the debate and now they're all running away one by one I can I don't know if james will allow me to mention their names, but That's not you've already I won't do it, but we are ready So you need to take this good spirit back to them. You mentioned about what's the most profound scientific miracle You know, I think that if you look at the Quran and I think the issue about the sperm that there was a sperm Which is that which determines the gender this is explicitly written in the Quran So that I see as one of the most significant scientific Statements of the Quran. I think that statement alone can prove it to be a word from word of God You got it and thank you very much for your question last one coming in from The noon says kendadir explain the scientific miracle in verse 91 Or maybe that would be if I remember right. Well, we're the word for uh, surah, right? surah 91 verses one through two Quote by the sun and its brightness and By in parentheses the moon when it follows it namely. I think they're saying that the the moon Follows the sun Right. Yeah, and that is absolutely scientifically correct because as the sun What people don't know that the sun actually does have an orbit the the sun revolves Or goes all around the milky way galaxy. Well, guess what follows it the moon follows it as well So this is scientifically Correct And in fact, I actually have a I can actually share my desktop. I could show something really quick on that If if time persists So I just get you some references to basically substantiate that point Tom looks enthusiastic to see it go ahead Okay, let me go let me go real quick The moon does not follow the sun so Basically when we look over here It says does the moon Follow the same path across the sky as the sun now. This is just one way you can interpret it So to say that actually it is uh, it is is correct from this point of view But I also want to show that uh other references which which will also substantiate that This is that this is uh, this is from nasa actually It says yes, the sun in fact and our whole solar system orbits around the center of the milky way galaxy So the point which I'm making here as the sun orbits Guess what's following it now everything not only just not just the moon, but everything else as well So this is a scientifically Accurate statement in the Quran Convince tom No, the The fact that it it seems to follow the same path in the sky Shows that people who are ignorant of cosmology and just looking to the sky would say something like the moon follows the sun Well, if you will actually know cosmology, you would know it. That's not how it works Actually, what it's following is dark matter because the dark matter actually significantly outweighs The mass of our solar system and what's causing it to orbit is the dark matter Not the sun and so it's following the dark matter not the sun Well, that's just one interpretation. Why don't you address the one about the milky way galaxy? I did so it's not the reason our solar system is in the milky way galaxy is because of the dark matter Which far outweighs the mass of our solar system. What are you talking about? No idea what you're talking about How are you denying the claim that the moon as well as everything else is not following the sun around the milky way galaxy? How are you denying that? Because the primary source of mass isn't the sun It's dark matter dark matter More mass than sun dark matter causes the movement of the solar system around the milky way not sun dark matter Dark matter not okay. James. Do you understand anything he's saying? I cannot take a position But I'll give you the last word on this before we go to the next question Another one just flew in from mark reed that I want to get to This one from mark reed saying nadir Why did you state that t-jump could not bring up his own subjects? Then accuse him of not bringing up examples of scientific inaccuracies. Don't you think that is a double standard, right? so the You should have brought scientific errors related to the statements about the about the the alcohol about gender determination About the issues which I was raising because the the particular scientific errors Which I wanted to see not stuff about moon following the sun that's irrelevant scientific error claims The relevant scientific error which I wanted him to bring up But he failed to do so are to the on based upon the scientifically correct statements because if we were to find that Then we know I mean if you were to produce scientific errors related to gender determination or alcohol or seas or whatever I have raised then we know the authors of coran is copying from other sources But he wasn't able to do so and as a result It was proven that the coran is a scientific miracle. In fact, I didn't ask him again tonight. Although he failed We are the scientific errors related to the material I presented to you. Go ahead Well, so like I don't understand the question because I never said he was copying from other sources So so the fact that he presented one factual statement like Whoa, even if you're not copying if you are doing analysis if you are trying to figure this Figure out this stuff in any other way. You're going to run into mistakes How many facts about ants are there in the coran? There's two facts And you got those two facts, right? That's right And and you want me to use those two facts and of those two facts find wrong facts Well, the issue is if you are copying or if you're deducing you're studying like you made this Analogy of this anthill or something like they put the stick See if you're doing any kind of scientific research You're going to basically discover you're going to come you're going to make a lot of mistakes before you get something right So we should see posthumous theories hypothesis as well as calculations or something like that to show us Okay, you are doing you're trying to figure this stuff out. It is hypothetically possible to come up with this information Boom first time around you got it. That's possible But you can't do it Consistently like what we have seen it throughout the coran now you're going to pull out the same stunk You're going to do that with the alcohol. You're going to do that with the seas. You're going to do that with a gender determination No, nobody can do that Consistent so that's where I think the debate was one You said he only presented two facts. If he's only presented two facts about ants He hasn't done it consistently. He's gotten two correct So if you write down like a thousand correct a thousand facts about ants, I've got all of those, right? That would be relatively impressive. You wrote down to be impressive. I do be This one coming in from do appreciate your question Mango tea says james. Can you do a reverse debate by reverse? I mean where the speakers defend the other person's worldview Eh, we did it once a long long time ago and people just didn't like it I think people usually like when people really have their own views on the line So I don't know if we'll do it again, but I appreciate that question This one coming in as well from why so religious do appreciate your patience as I agree I was slow to get to your question says if islam is correct This is for you nadir Then why did Allah mislead muslim scholars to believe that the moon creates its own light? and then says I don't know how to pronounce this. Let me know nadir says ibn tamaya Namely parentheses may Allah have mercy on him said the words daya noor and so on refer to something that produces light by itself such as the sun and moon and such as fire Allah may he be exalted says interpretation of the meaning quote It is he who made the sun a shining thing daya and the moon as a light Noor if islam is true then Allah should only guide muslims to truth Unlike here where a prominent scholar for centuries is wrong Which lead which leads other muslims to be wrong about the universe Yeah, and so you know what i'm seeing It's kind of a consistent pattern where This debate was basically is an open and shut case They are not able to challenge the evidence presented in the scientific miracles of the quran So what they want to do now they want to try to disprove the quran and i've already repeated many times We're ready to debate these things what the questioner is doing. He's attacking a commentary He's saying that the quran now has to take the responsibility to make sure everybody's Understanding of the uh of science has to be corrected Well, maybe that might work that maybe that might be the way it works for the atheist pseudoscientific space cadet This is the way he thinks but this is not what the scientific world would expect Uh, and so the quran has no obligation to do so You got it and thank you very much for this question coming in from do want to remind you My dear friends, thanks so much for your feedback We will put out more details on the debate con conference as we know them as i know that we haven't put out a lot But we are going to share more about that as we've just been a little bit behind on it So thanks for asking that and with that one to say thanks so much to our guests who we have as mentioned excited We are excited to mention we have invited them to the debate Debate con conference by modern day debate. It's going to be juicy.  Thank you very much tom jump and the deer for being with us tonight It's been a true pleasure. Sure. Thank you. Thanks the deer. Thanks for asking james. Thank you Uh 100 i'm going to be back in just a moment My dear friends with a post credit scene letting you know some of the juicy details more on that conference coming up As well as other juicy debates. So thanks for that and stick around. I'll be right back in just a moment