So we're we're gonna start in a minute, but I just wanted to say this again for folks that are just arriving Please sign in at the little podium right at the door if you haven't there will be two opportunities to I It felt like a few minutes ago. Most of the folks here were to here to talk about rental registry the way the night's gonna work We're gonna have public to be heard in a couple minutes, which is an opportunity for folks to share comments about anything They'd like And after that we're gonna go into a public hearing on the budget which that Conversation will last maybe 20 to 30 minutes Probably closer to 20 Then we're gonna talk about a library grant application, which will probably be about 10 minutes, and then we're gonna move into the rental registry We'll probably talk about the rental registry for 20 to 30 minutes and after that there'll be an opportunity for more comment So you reason why you're splitting it up. Can't you just do the rental registry all in one shot? We are doing rental registry all and in its order, but we're trying to give you an opportunity We're not splitting it that's just where it lands in the agenda tonight because we're Prioritizing the budget tonight Can you move it is the question so So just just to be clear so a pop mark the public hearing has to happen. Yeah, so regardless there would be two No, and here's why we can't because the budget conversation needs to happen around the budget if they're intertwined I believe right Actually, no we can I think we've worn this the way it is and people may be joining online and in other ways expecting to hear the budget and not Want to wait an hour for that I think it'd be okay if you wanted to move 5a lower Okay, yeah, we don't need to there's nobody here to talk I Appreciate that sentiment Harlan are you here for the library still? Okay, we're gonna move We're gonna move you To no, I mean to your section. We're gonna move to after so later on in the meeting After rental registry So we're gonna start with the public hearing on the budget and we're gonna go right into rental registry And then we'll talk then we'll talk about your library part All right, and we're gonna we'll do that part in the agenda additions and changes. So is everybody ready? Great What record? Recording in progress All right, I'll call the city of estrange and city council meeting for Wednesday, February 28th 2024 to order. Are there any agenda additions or changes? Yes We'll move We will move 5a to 5b and 5b will become 5a And we don't need to do anything else though, right? No Okay, could I get them if there's nothing else gonna get a motion on that? Don't move second great. All those in favor. Hi. Hi Awesome All right So as I said now is an opportunity if you don't want to wait around until after or if you have something else You want to talk about we this is an opportunity for those in the room and those online to Bring comments about any topic Not just what we're talking about this evening Anybody who wants to say anything sure come on up and you're we're gonna chair right next to where you're sitting give us your name and Sure, I'm Edward Liamas. I own 54 56 Park Street where do you live in a six junction or I do not okay? I'm a property owner and that's extension So I own eight units of s6 junction and I also own eight units in Burlington And I've also been a real estate broker for 35 years So I have a unique Perspective on your Your rental fees that you want is one implement Okay now the city of Burlington has been doing it for years. Okay, and How can I explain this? They probably have seven or eight inspectors for the city of Burlington and they Because like you like you want to do they want to expect once every five years if your property is a good shape If not, they try to inspect every other year. Okay, but they get the fee from me Every year for the hundred and ten dollars per unit times eight so eight hundred eighty dollars on top of the twenty Three thousand dollars of property taxes like a okay It's been a pleasure owning property in s6 junction because when I when I bought my buildings they weren't in gray shape and When I came in here to change windows change roofs, I kept on saying I'm here for a permit Well, if you put the same roof on you don't need a permit great Okay, we're in Burlington. Everything's a fee if I want to change a broken window. I need a permit It's cost $80 the open and $80 to close for a broken window Burlington has made these It's almost like it's almost like the mafia if you want to own property in Burlington. You got to pay up Okay, and to maintain it for an s6 junction As long as you you know, you know Don't change anything but want to keep it the same or make it better It's it's like it's always been just just do it and it's been a it's been a pleasure owning property here, okay, and the developers obviously like being here because in the last ten years this place has grown like crazy and I Congratulate you for making obviously easier for developers to come in here and do this stuff and you're reaping the benefits now with all these extra apartments and Restaurants and bars down here. Taxes got to be coming in pretty good Okay, now the inspection fee of $110 a year No more amount of money not much. Okay, but you know in my buildings. I have three section eight tenants 75 year old lady Single mom with a daughter Okay, and when I say to them now, okay now when we knew when we knew your lease I got to get a hundred and ten dollars from you because I'm not gonna eat it Because I'm paying property taxes as it is. I'm paying for the water and sorbets It's just another fee that you guys are throwing on top of people to make things more unaffordable Okay, and it's it's only hundred ten dollars, but it's it's eight hundred eighty dollars or if you have 50 units It's it's a lot. Okay, and I think You know, I think you guys can get revenue somewhere else other than this And the properties around town Once again being a realtor for 35 years I've been in most of them if the apartment house comes on the market I'm in it and What happens is this is a bit if it ones in bad shape the guy who buys it redos it It makes it better. So I see no reason to have an inspector coming in and anybody's Apartment houses houses or whether you're spending at the condominiums It's just it's just a money grab on your part and you're better than this Okay, thanks Anyone else in the room that wants to sure come on up and just share your name with us and where you're from Lisa Johnson and I live right across the street In regards to the this fee that you're looking to implement I don't know if you realize what this is going to do to as he said people who are on section 8 Families with one income or on a fixed income People who live paycheck to paycheck that's going to be added on to our rent And yeah, it's not a lot when you spread it over the year, but then we also have increases in our rent You have school taxes that are going to go up There's people who and I know this through my profession Cannot afford a two dollar copay for a medication that's going to keep them alive That they have to find funding to get help in order to be able to pick up that prescription every month You can I'm sure you have access to the food banks here. People do not have food That it's expensive. You can't even eat healthy unless you have money because of the cost of food and There's definitely other ways you guys could get this kind of money Instead of passing it on to the residents here that you know are living paycheck to paycheck and Barely surviving if they can even have food on the table seven days a week and Provide for the ones who have kids all the expenses to sending a child to school these days or is A costly venture also Thank you. Thank you I don't want to speak on this or anything else David Harrington, and I also live across the street here at 15 Park Street I Also, I'm opposed to this fee. I think that You know, we all know it's no secret. There's an affordability problem In Vermont as a whole especially here in Chittin County I live in Essex Junction because it was somewhat in for affordable I have a I live on a fixed income and With the increase in Blue Cross Blue Shield this year my annual I mean my monthly salary just went down by a hundred and twenty two dollars Even though I got a cost of living increase through Social Security So I go what other people are going to say that there's a lot of people on fixed incomes And this may seem like ten dollars a month is not a big deal. But in fact It's one more step away from affordability when you start looking at what we're going to be looking at and property tax increases school taxes And I just think that you should rethink this whole thing and there's other alternatives that people have problems with their Apartment or their landlord There's all kinds of tenants rights that are available to them There's a lot of things that they can do if they have a problem with their apartment They have recourse other than You know looking at looking at the village of Essex Junction to to collect that fee and to have inspectors come in There's people at the state level people at the county level Even in the village I would imagine there's people here that can can look into those problems So it's you know when you have a good stock of apartments here I think You know for those few rare instances where you have problems There's other recourse other than other than looking towards this fee to generate revenue So I appreciate you entertaining us early on This is a meeting let's keep the applause to them, please. Thank you Richard. Did you want to sure you coming up? Watch your step. I did it gracefully. It's 78 year old You okay? Yeah Good thing I have no fear I'm going to get up on my miniscule soapbox and advocate for a rental registry I own property in Burlington and I've owned a duplex in Winooski since 1978, which is rented now I have a lot of experience with the rental registry in both of those communities I think that it is a good thing for tenants and a good thing for property owners to know That their properties are safe and healthy for the tenants that are there and I think we're approaching this a little incorrectly I think what we need to do is ask Ourselves each other Do we here in Essex Junction want renters to live in safe and healthy rental units? Apartments we probably all answer yes So then how do we do it? That's the that's the big question for me In Winooski and Burlington, this has guaranteed I've had tenants prospective tenants Ask me for my inspection sheet So they can see that the things that the municipalities have suggested have been done and that they inspect every five years in each of my In each of my rental properties the building owner is there me I'm there. It takes about 45 minutes in my duplex to To inspect and I am grateful for this It's a hundred and fifteen dollars a year for each of my for each of my units three all told and I did not pass it on to the tenants I thought this is something that's important and if the municipality isn't willing to do it who is and I think that a lot of the comments made at the first Rental registry hearing are answered by mr. Ewan in his in his part or this part of the Of the of the packet for tonight So I hope if you have questions about the things that came up before you are looking at that first to see what he has said I really believe this is we a good thing for the city I think that we need to to guarantee that people are living in safe and healthy housing And I've seen substandard housing here in the junction and we don't we don't want that or I don't want that You'll have to answer for yourselves, but I definitely don't want that. Thanks. Thank you Is there anyone else who would like to share comments? Brian come on in. Oh, sorry Your stuff So I'm just gonna ask I didn't want to interrupt the speaker prior. Please address your comments to the board Mr. President My name is Brian Sheldon and I live in Essex Junction I myself am a small landlord, but not in Vermont. I own or used to own rental properties in Texas DC and Chicago DC requires landlord registration the other two jurisdictions do not But I can tell you it's just not that onerous There was a form a stamp a hundred dollars and an inspection. I didn't even have to go to the inspection Therefore I rise in support for while I sit in support for the rental registry here in Essex Junction There's several reasons I do that number one is tenant safety Consider for second a basement apartment that only has one exit What happens if there's a fire?  Let's not mince words about what the stakes are here Secondly user fees user fees are better than taxes under this proposal the staff to perform these needed inspections Are paid for the folks that are causing the expense and are profiting on the expense The only other way to pay for these staffers is to raise taxes on everybody And why am I as a non landlord in this jurisdiction being asked to subsidize the for profit landlords in the community? Whenever we can match a city expense with the minority of folks that are causing it is a good thing The last thing I'd like to leave the council with is if our landlords can't afford 150 a year What are they going to do when a refrigerator fails? And I think they protest too much I support a rental registry and I hope to let the I hope the city implements one. Thank you. Thank you Let's not interrupt folks, please is there anyone else that would like to speak? Hi, I'm rolenda coral I'd like to say for starters that I do live in where you're from As extension I'm on property here For starters, I am tired of everybody Having to pay for the misbehaved people. I have an apartment. Matter of fact, it was 15 18 years ago, whatever that the village of s extension allowed it and Back then like now they wanted apartments Because there's a shortage also back then in s extension. They approved it And I have had at least 15 Tenants some have been six months only because They wanted to one had a crisis and I'm like, I'll let you out of your lease. I've never had a problem renting it None of my tenants will tell you that there there's any complaint you want to know why because I take care of my stuff And I believe Everybody here does the ones you're going after are the slum lords that They don't care you can find them all they want But you're coming after us and who's going to end up getting it Well, somebody mentioned while they pay for it themselves. That's fine in dandy But are they on social security people assume because somebody has a rental? That they're rich. No, you're not You'd be surprised to see what the bottom line is as far as if a refrigerator breaks. Well, guess what? You don't sock it on the the Person right there you pay for it But that goes in your overhead if you see It's getting worse and worse. What are your choices? Are you going to go and work for some place? and Not get paid matter of fact paid them So it boils down to stop coming after your niggling, diming at everything for mines be extremely expensive and it's getting worse So it's time. Listen to the people okay, because People are saying that it's mean to pass it on to the tenant Yeah, it may sound it but If they're willing to pay the price then fine if you I see whoever's for it. Why don't you start a fountain and and And put your money towards it and let people use that So it just boils down to why don't you put responsibility where it belongs not on everybody On the ones that have got That is love Thank you There anyone else that wants to have to make a comment tonight? Come on up I don't see anyone Virginia views. I'm not seeing anyone online. I haven't seen any How's it going? My name is brek Robowski. I own actually or pearl street across the street in 11 park um, I From reading over chris's comments here and the notes that you guys are reviewing this evening In this whole rental registry program. I really believe you guys are looking To solve a problem that doesn't exist um You know if you look at the statistics basically that chris has actually provided in the memo itself over the course of you know You already do have a process in in place in regards to if rental And it's feel that they are living in a substandard situation. They have problems There is an avenue for them to complain right now or complain or to bring concerns to to the city in regards to through the the health inspector If you look at chris's number that he's provided to you with the memo this evening over the course of the last year There were 54 complaints total 10 of those were basically They believe related to specific rental housing And of those 10 Two basically needed corrective action so What I feel is that you know some of the other comments that were in here in regards to the fire the fire department and knowing rental units and and having an idea of the buildings and safety and That process already exists when we come in myself permit or propose a building We discuss it with the fire department the fire department reviews the plans They are aware of the the number of units in a building They are aware of the safety measures and everything that are that are we are required to do so What I feel is is awesome some discussions about You know the process is already in place in regards at the state level and how there is a complaint process for for tenants to actually call a state and the state is very responsive to to Actually looking into those issues So what I'm seeing here is as is is a very large cost To create really a redundant program that in all honesty if you look at the numbers is really not necessary The the the numbers just don't drive the costs that are going to be Passed on to the landlords and eventually passed on to the tenants themselves. Okay. Thanks. Thank you Anyone else have any comments that I'd like to make come on up Good evening. Mr. President the steaming members of the council Um, Jason scholars of path street, um, I'll keep it brief as possible I am among those that are in opposition to the rental registry program So my first question is how given that the overwhelming majority Of input from people has been in opposition How much input from the public does it take before you drop it? We're not answering questions right now. You don't answer any questions Okay. Well, so the other point that I I find Undesirable about the program is that you're only providing services once out of every five years But you're collecting fees every year So five to one that's not a really good ratio to keep paying and so If the council isn't going to drop this Um, will you can it be added to the ballot so the the people can vote on it? There's already a process for adding without having to add you know gather the 550 signatures Okay, that's all I have Okay Is it I just want to make sure I'm correct on that we couldn't add anything at this point Um, I mean we're adding we're finalizing the warning tonight. You're finalizing the warning tonight So there wouldn't be time for legal review Um, if that's necessarily needed a special meeting it's possible next week, but we are pretty much Okay Hi there. Thanks for joining us Yes, thank you for this opportunity. My name is Brett gaskill. I live in the junction Uh, I'd like to thank the previous speaker for putting together those statistics which prove That there is no need for this process The cost Is one thing in terms of these fees But what I have not heard brought up is the uh as somebody earlier said there are eight inspectors in burlington How many is this city here planning on hiring? New people that everybody is going to be paying taxes on It's all adding to the cost. It's all piling on the unaffordability of Vermont And as extension.  Thank you. Thank you Anyone else that wants to share a comment on this or any other topic? Come on Watch your step I know it's Thank you, mr. Chair. Um, I spoke at the last meeting I did bill ado I live in Essex Junction I just know I heard anyways, um I'm a 40 year resident of the village city now city five years in the town 40 year landlord in burlington Uh, Essex franklin county lamoille county So I have a lot of experience in property management And I know a lot of people that own property and our property managers I don't see The need for this program in Essex Junction Um, I think I mentioned the last time I was here. We have a pretty good housing stock in Essex Junction and a lot of it Is probably 35 years Or newer if I look at countryside, I think there's 250 houses up there. You have fair fee Fairview, you have the new Bachelene or whatever is over there. I think our oldest Community is probably the indian acres and those are pretty small houses. So they're probably not multi unit buildings. I'm guessing so, um You know, I won't dwell on the 110 dollars what I will dwell on and someone just brought it up is we're looking at I think a 20 percent tax increase In our school budgets. Who do you think is going to pay for that? Do you think the landlords are going to absorb that? No, that also gets passed on to the tenants and you know We're a very senior community in the state of ramon Uh, maybe the second elderliest State in the nation right now Why would we do this to our seniors? I think if you have a problem Or if someone raises their hand and there's a problem in their apartment or with their landlord Take it up with that person Um, you know living in the village for 40 plus years now I'm pretty familiar with what we're looking at here. I don't see a lot of dilapidated old buildings I heard someone mention winnuski. We're not winnuski Uh, someone mentioned burlington. I've been in burlington 40 years I know what's in burlington and we are not burlington but It appears that all of a sudden as a new city. We're adopting programs from burlington I I'd like to think that we're a little better than that And that's my two cents. Thank you Thank you All right, is there anyone else? I would just like to know later on when this comes back around. It's that when people can ask questions of the more Yes All right.  We'd be happy to take your comment Uh, my last name is ready One second anthony we're trying to trying to get this to work for you Yeah, that's a sandwich Showing him unmuted. Is it? Yep. Okay. His mic's not moving Yeah, his mic is unmuted I'm not showing you something Give us a minute for him It just indicated that he was talking He's really low So People out there can hear him Bear with us anthony We'll be right with you Amber or Jess, could you either of you say something just so we can tell Can you guys hear us? Yeah, we can't hear them I could hear Amber, she could not hear That's creepy, Scott I think we hear her out here Well Anybody else in the room wants to speak and Yes, sir. Is there anyone here that has anything else they'd like to say while we're waiting? No, all right. Bear with us. We'll try to figure this out quickly Joan just a moment. We're gonna have anthony share their thoughts with us First we were waiting for We called on anthony. So just one second Anthony, can you give it a shot? Yes. Hello. All right. Can you share your last name and where you're from? Sure Thanks Yeah I appreciate all the The landlords and property owners present in their perspective. I'm a renter here as few other people are And I'm also in a a young resident of the town I moved my family here a few years ago hoping to escape this type of This type of regulation. I've had prepared stating here because I recently learned about This proposal. So if everyone who's fair with me, I apologize that sat like a college college classroom for a second, but But yeah, but yeah, here we go In 2021 the city council of orange city, Iowa passed an eerily similar housing inspection program that called for mandatory inspections at the cadence of five years of all apartments and houses that are occupied on a rental basis Inspectors were allowed to enter the most intimate consigns of tenants homes including bedrooms bathrooms kitchens and closets in search of housing hood violations With this unfettered access inspectors can prime to a person's personal property and personal life Purposefully or inadvertently gathering gathering information about the occupant sex life their orientation medical conditions religion religious or political beliefs A group of landlords and tenants sued the city to put a stop to such inspections citing the violation of not only the fourth amendment of the Constitution but the constitution of the state of Iowa as well The judge presiding of the case rejected the city's motion to dismiss the case Knowing that the state supreme court had held that unreasonable search is not only apply to criminal cases But civil civil actions as well in a ruling this past office the iowa district court pursued county ruled that orange city iowa the law required requiring mandatory inspections of rental property within the city within the city limits Violates the constitution in fact the u.s supreme court has found that mandatory inspections lacking the permission Of the apartment resident and conducting without a warrant for a violation of the fourth amendment of the constitution For reference on this issue see frank v marland and camaradee municipal court of san francisco In both cases the rights of the individual were upheld article 11 of the brahmans state constitution also regulates such Searches it states that people have a right to hold themselves their homes papers and possessions free from search And that warrants for such searches without sufficient evidence for them should not be granted Meaning that if the government wanted to inspect the unit a warrant could only be obtained after sufficient evidence Of a real need was presented and substantiated Additionally the u.s constitution's fourth amendment protection from unregional searches applies to searches in hotel and motel rooms as well It is only after a person's stay Has expired that with consent of authorized hotel employees government personnel may enter a room without a warrant Should law-abiding renters not be afforded the same protections as those on vacation I asked renters do you want a stranger representative of the state entering your bedroom and looking in your color closets Potentially making a physical or mental mental itemized list of what you find what they find there Whether it is related to code violations or not. Would you want them entering your child's bedrooms? Thus knowing where they sleep in detail. I think that the human Conducting the search would remember the contents of an individual apartments To think that they would not remember the contents of an individual's apartment is naive Think they would not report such findings to a given entity is a dewey fantasy For those who are homeowners of which I assume many in the room are How would you feel if you were subjected to the same treatment a safe representative entering your home your children's bedrooms Viewing the contents of your family's closets remembering what was inside of them and what they hold And this brings me to the issue of equality. I asked Why not include single family homeowners in this proposal? Why not enter their homes asking to view their most private those private areas? Are their edifices not governed by the same physics that govern materials that are used to construct rental units? Would the residents of single family homes not be subjected to the same harms of that of a renter if something in their private home We're out of code the single family homeowners are excluded from this proposal Does this not create a stratified social situation within our community? The equal protection clause of the fourteenth amendment would seem to agree as the inspection proposal Would be private renters and rental owners of their fundamental right of privacy while shielding single family homeowners for such duty Continuing on the topic of inequality The fees associated with this program that will be put upon rental owners will invariably increase operating costs These costs rightfully so will be passed on to the renter Is there not a housing affordability crisis a rental affordability crisis? Representatives from across the political spectrum seem to agree there is so why embark on a policy that with that will quicken this crisis Why create an additional barrier to entry for entrepreneurs looking to solve it by building more units? There thereby decreasing unit cost I have a great relationship with my landlord They are available virtually around the clock should an issue arrives when I have been in need of something They respond and address it almost immediately No significant issues of the experience of my time living here, which is the better part of the decade all visitors have commented on My residents how well maintained it is clean and well appointed the apartments many of which live here themselves Even if this inspection program holds the best intentions it appears to be manifested through the evidence for your evidence free analysis A non-existent problem as nothing to support its need has been presented Given this one can only conclude this is a tax on renters by another needs Rental housing inspection laws placing unnecessary financial hardship on owners renters infringing upon personal privacy rights and single out apartment housing While excluding other properties I ask that you abandon and pursue this policy and consider improving other Proven approaches that target chronic code violations such as complaint driven property inspections and from a personal note If this goes through I will just move I will leave And I'll take my salary and all my spending And interaction with the community with it with it Because as a previous resident had mentioned, you know When when is it going to be uh, you know enough You know, there's enough money being taken out of our paychecks. There's enough money taking out of everything Tax increases, etc. Um, this is just one more One more one one one more thing that's going to cost everybody You know some very dearly in the old pocketbook. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Anthony There was another person online that wanted to speak. I didn't write your name down Are you still with us? Yes, I am. My name is Joan Klonsky. I rent in Bethlehem Junction. I think I am totally against what you want to do I think it's a problem I think you're trying to create a problem that doesn't exist And I think you're just looking to find a way to get additional funds For something that doesn't exist So I would hope that you will eliminate this And some I mean, I I'm in a rental if I have a problem they are immediately immediately So, um I don't know what you I don't I don't feel what you're doing is right And I think you're just looking for additional Revenue Thank you. Thanks, Joan. Is there anyone else online Who wants to share a comment? So I'm not seeing any hands up Steve just raised his hand brush Hey Steve Eustace Hello. Thanks, broch Steve used to sign up in this junction and I also have a rental And I had asked him questions last time around and it was great to see Chris's report And you I thought you did a good job doing the best you could answering the questions I had my concern. I I think a lot of people Share the concerns that everyone wants a safe place to live and it's Make sure everyone has a safe place and it's just a matter of how we all go about that and Like for me, of course, I want to have a safer tenant and all and all of that and my concern is always like getting nipped and I had, you know Todd had a brief discussion with chris and it's like because he had the link in there on here's the things we're going to check And I was like, okay. These are all very reasonable things. I can like deal with this It's a known quantity But then as chris pointed out there's like, oh, well this references something else which references something else and you know, how do you get into this whole thing where You know again the railing is an inch too short on your stairs or like You know things that just feels like Aren't as big like egress or smoke alarms or things like that which are like completely obvious And and you need to do And I was thinking furthermore about someone like the basic safety things like having egress, you know I think one of the people mentioned earlier I mean what if like the first time you were renting you just had to have Like someone look it over and you know all these apartment buildings they're building They're all going through the planning commission or the development review board And we know they're all Safe and there's emergency exits and you know all these kinds of basic things that are going to happen And is that the problem that you know, somebody has a really old home and they're going to rent out or You know the basement or something and then it's not really safe And is that really the problem you're trying to solve? And beyond the the handful of complaints again that were brought up and chris had in his report So just trying to think of what is the intent of what you're trying to do And and try and maybe there's a different way of doing it just because other communities have had a rental registry Doesn't mean we have to do it the exact same way like think think about it some more and say, okay What are we really trying to accomplish here? And you know First of all, how big is the problem, right? And so we have a little bit of sense of that now from one years of data from chris Um, and you know, how do we how do we deal with this? It isn't onerous or doesn't build over time or we get into again a nitpicking situation Or is the previous person mentioned privacy issues and you know all kinds of things but Again, I think people understand the goal of safety and it's about how do you how do we all ensure that and you know 95% of the people are probably already doing this and reaching out and getting the information they need and doing the best they can as landlords in a very safe way And so that's what I wanted to bring up again concepts good, but maybe there's a different way to solve the problem Which is in so much. Thank you Thank you. Appreciate it. Is there anyone else online? Back to zoom All right, not seeing anybody in the room not seeing anybody online. We are going to move off of public to be heard at this point and Move on to the public hearing on the FY proposed 25 proposed general fund operating capital budgets And I could use a motion to open the public hearing I'll move we open the public hearing on the budget Second great all those in favor say aye. All right. So this is um, public hearing on the proposed next year's budget This is Tonight is the last chance to comment on the budget During this time. We're going to walk folks through a general look at at the budget Take questions comments on it once that portion is done and we've heard all the feedback that is available We will close the public hearing and then consider any of that feedback and any potential changes or Um, whatever's whatever's been brought up at that point. So we're going to start the presentation now Um Are you controlling your control? Yeah, okay. Can we move on? Yes, please so The budget process began, um With the city manager finance director and department heads in the city, um working together to produce a draft of the city council um We received that presentation from the manager and all of department heads in a day-long budget meeting in december early december um We discussed Some of what we heard that day and then spent the next couple of months uh digesting that returning to the budget topic seeking feedback um, and We spent quite a bit of time, uh making cuts here and there throughout the budget trying to reduce the amount um We have had a public hearing already. We had a community meal at the cde in january This is the second public hearing we're having on the budget There were no comments at that public hearing that caused us to change anything in the budget Um, so this is largely the same document that we presented them Um, we are as I said going to discuss this this evening and we'll warn it for the april vote Tonight barring any major changes or anything that we hear from the public The budget's 12.1 million dollars, which is an increase of six percent Right now our average property in the city Is around 280 thousand dollars and the increase on the municipal property tax for a home of that value will be 170 dollars Obviously this does not include the school increase The general fund tax rate will move from 0.9199 to 0.9807 a 6.6 percent change And again the impact of that will be 170 dollars um Revenue is largely from property taxes And 74 of that comes from residential property tax Global foundries contributes six percent of the of all the property tax revenue and businesses account for 11 The remaining revenue looks like nine percent comes from fees collected for community development Or city clerk type fees The largest portion of this budget at 25 percent or a little over three million dollars is for public safety Which is sx rescue and the police department contract we have with town After that public works in streets is about 13 percent Recreation the administration budget for recreation to run the programs is nine percent at 1.13 million And the brownout library at 8 percent at a little over one million This slide. Oh, sorry. Just takes you through the rest of that Breakdown I'll just stop here for a second. Are there any questions so far? Yes We can make that available after the meeting tonight sure on our website It is not in effect Um, it may already be on the website. We'll get you an answer this evening though. Sure. I just can't remember this Uh, walk you through summary of uh, the big changes the big players in the budget We've already heard this tonight. Uh, one of the biggest impacts was a 15 and a half percent health insurance increase for our employees Um that Along with salaries accounted for 368,854 dollar increase We are moving a finance billing coordinator Position that was part time to full time Half of that increase will be covered by enterprise funds and those enterprise funds are things like Funds that bring in fees so water sanitation And sewer so when you see your water bill that person will be handling a lot of that work Um, there's a ten thousand dollar increase a little over ten thousand dollars for more community outreach Part of the reason we've had more response I think on the rental registry for instance is because we took the time to mail out a postcard to all households in the community To let them know what we're working on That's the kind of thing this would go to so anytime we're talking about something significant That we think we need input on this is what we would that's the kind of work we do to make sure we're Folks are aware of what's going on Not having to proactively go to the website to look on the We have been running through a strategic planning process for the past four or five months And that we expect that to wrap up in the next six or eight weeks We've added ten thousand dollars to the one of the legislative budget so that we can begin to implement And explore how we implement some of those some of that feedback from the community Clerk revenue came in lower 31 thousand dollars lower than we expected So we've reduced that revenue line with the clerk's office Technology subscriptions in that department increased by about 11 thousand dollars And we have fewer elections this cycle so that brings that election cost down One city clerk position will move from 40 hours to 32 hours And we believe we can save with that And still keep the clerk services and office open 40 hours per week Um Casualty insurance property liability insurance increased city-wide Um by almost 11 percent and we've had an increase in the it budget it contracted managed service agreement With open approach of about 75 thousand dollars Um, we all just talked about the rental registry the line item in that department for expense went up Um, it will be offset the proposed by the proposed fee collection um So that expense and revenue cancel each other out should that program continue Um economic development there was a reduction of 36 thousand dollars. We're pausing Um allocating money to the economic development fund as we analyze and review what we learned in the strategic planning process So there's a 36 thousand dollar reduction in the budget there There's a 22 thousand dollar um allocation in the stormwater um budget for a consultant to help us explore, um a stormwater utility, which would be much like a the water utility And uh matching grant funds expense we've increased that Uh line by about 23 thousand dollars to leverage, um Grants from the state We contract with the town of sx for assessing They have changed their budget and asked us for an increase of 11 thousand dollars For gis work. So that contract has increased um Our building's budget has gone down by 40 thousand dollars Um, we took some moving cleaning. Um, we took some cleaning and supply costs from the park street school building And put them in the sx junction record parks program fund um And that program fund is a fund that collects fees for the services that are provided in that building. So we've saved 40 thousand dollars from the general fund, which is what we're all taxed on And moved them to the fund that collects the revenues for that program, which is largely preschool um Increase the transfer to the capital budget by 53 thousand dollars And we've met a request by the fire department um and done something we've long wanted to do which was Hey firefighters for their training time, not just their call time So that has added 75 thousand dollars to the fire department budget There any questions so far All right, this is a summary of the top 10 Current capital projects that we're looking at for the next five years This is in no particular order Um These projects have been scored against a rubric by the capital committee Um funding has been for the most part has been assigned in a preliminary preliminary way Um, again, this is in no particular order and these could Come up as funding is available from them in various grants or state fund matches We recently uh, the city recently implemented a local option tax, which is the 1% sales tax addition Recently the city council Approved a policy Which was the intention of the local option tax to earmark all of those funds to capital projects and not use them for other spending To help offset the capital needs that we have over the next five to 15 years 25 of that money Will be specifically applied to sidewalk improvements and repairs And this is somewhere in the order of about eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year total That we've seen come in The policy, okay, it's sorry we keep going Um that policy also, um should something come up Um in the city that needs immediate attention The policy also allows us to change the allocation if we need to So we have in addition to tonight More opportunities to ask questions and learn more about the budget. There are two coffee chats With various city counselors on march 19th and 28th. There is Um going to be a live and recorded, um Show with I believe myself and our manager, Regina Mahoney on channel 17 on march 21st Our informational meeting will be april 1st virtually I'll do that on zoom as we've had done for the past couple of years Um and annual meeting will be by australian ballot On april 9th ballots will be mailed You also have in person voting at champlain ballet exposition the blue pavilion building So that's Really it you can find more information on the city's website You can email city council ask junction.org if you have specific questions later But if anyone has questions now any part of that or anything we might not have covered This would be a great time to hear those Yes, I just had a question on the back line of community development Please can you talk about yes on the speed progress and what was the dollar amount on that? I can look for that The entire community development budget or the increase the increase decrease the offset We can find that that's going to take a second. Okay while we're finding that are there any other questions Steve has his hand up Raj. If you don't have any in the room Oh, you know, I didn't wasn't looking at zoom. Thanks amber Steve I just wanted to uh, thank the council I know we've had a variety of public meetings The community meal et cetera gathered a lot of input and uh, and it is difficult Putting the the budget together. I know it's more than you wanted to have the increase but I feel like you've gone through a good public process to arrive at the data and I know, you know, sometimes Social media stuff people don't always say the kindest things But I want to make sure I complimented you on on everything you've done on this And I did have one question Um on the capital projects I had seen it elsewhere and then it was on the what you had shown as well where it had the Pearl street from west street extension to susie wilson it mentioned You know road and sidewalk and you know as some people have noted on front porch forum And you know, I drive that stretch regularly. It's been really falling apart and I'm hoping That I was going to get paved this summer So that you know, people aren't bowing other tires on that and that it wasn't going to take two or three years before we We fixed that because it's been getting worse each year Um, and I had no idea what the schedule is on that But I was concerned that I saw it in the capital budget because I know that takes longer for things to happen um, and it seemed more of a Open wound that needed attention. So I just want to inquire on Yeah, I'm not sure where I mean that list was in no particular order. I couldn't comment without Accessing the which we might have our fingertips in a minute Actual schedule or how those are ranked at this point But that that list was That kind of project wouldn't happen more. It's not in that list So take heart. It's on the list Do we have the community development member yet? um So the general road paving budget that happens every year. It's approximately 300 000 in the streets budget is not in the capital So the capital program projects are really the bigger projects where we're doing some infrastructure upgrades and then Pave on top of that when that when that work is done um also Street pearl street. I think the section of pearl street that steve is mentioning is a class one section so paving is done um paid for by the state Okay Because you're talking west street to susie wilson, right? We didn't take that on It's not for that or no, there's we do maintain it. We don't pay it. Okay, right That's the relationship on the class one. Okay Okay, so we would have the Okay So perhaps the the current just the paving itself that isn't very bad repair at the moment Could get taken care of completely outside of whatever improvements that are in the capital plan regarding the sidewalk Yes Okay, thank you. I appreciate that and I've learned something too Do we have the Community development number the so as contemplated in the budget the rental registry and inspection program is roughly $153 000 so um Again, that amount is offset by the fees to cover the program, but that's approximately how much it is Does that answer your question great? Now I have a question because I think originally it was set to be about $250,000 bank account based upon how many rental units are i'm gonna I'm gonna start asking he was close enough to the mic But if you're gonna sorry because we have people at home if you could come up to the table I know It's pain So short indy Based on the previous numbers of rental units in the city of sx I believe I understood that you were standing to make to take in about $250,000 a year So now i'm hearing it's 150 to run the program so 100,000 less Than what you would be charging I don't believe it's supposed to exceed now, but I don't have the budget in front of me There's also so there's an expectation. So we're making conservative estimates of revenue Um, based on about a 70% calculated for the first year Even though uh anybody that isn't registered at at the start would be still liable for paying afterwards That doesn't really answer my question. So the salient point if I may yeah Is that what the fees bring in is what the program is going to cost? It's not going to it's not a profit center It's not going to build up additional savings that that will be put elsewhere Whatever it costs to run Is what's going to be brought in by fees So if if the program should cost about $150,000 and you have roughly 2,500 rental units in the city Then that's significantly less 120 dollars per unit It's It's not that many units. It's closer to 18 to 2,000 Yeah So may pull out their phone and do the math on that real quick 2,000 times 120 The other salient point here too is that this is still under discussion and we're still in the process of exploring this We had a public hearing together feedback This process could go on for some time or we could drop it at any point But right now it's still very much process and an exploration on our part to see What's going to be included how much it's going to cost what the budget's going to be But we also have a we have to be conservative about compliance on it as well As chris pointed out. So there's a lot of moving parts that we're still in the middle of discussion on But if i'm not mistaken tonight is the night you're going to make that decision On the rental registry for no No, no not necessarily interesting I don't think about that. I mean it's so It's in the budget because it's essentially net neutral So if it stays in the budget, it doesn't cost anything on the property tax and if it doesn't happen It goes away Part of the discussion later this evening will be Is it going to stay in the budget and then that will happen? I think after we talk about the rental registry So we I think I'll speak for myself, but I think a few of the other counselors We still have a lot of questions about it. I don't feel personally like I'm ready to pull the trigger out One way or the other Nor I think have we warned that we're going to make a decision on it tonight. So This is not the last time we'll talk about the rental registry We'll circle back Yeah, and you sure the only thing I just wanted to say one of the things that can be confusing on the agenda when it says Discussion and consideration if there's the slightest chance we might make a decision on it We have to say and consideration That doesn't mean we are going to but if we don't have that word again there Then we can't make a decision on it So if it says discussion and consideration for however many months it takes It's because there's a chance we might but it's not a guarantee and it's not a promise So it's one of those frustrating open meeting a lot of things that we have to do That can kind of mislead the public since it's We'll have a better sense after we talk about it and so will you as to where we are And I like I said, I don't expect that Anything will be decided tonight There are any other questions about the budget specifically Was there new positions in there? What's that about? Could you I'm sorry. Could you come back up? I apologize, but it's The new hybrid world And if you don't mind stating your name I'll say my name again. Yes, all right It's Rowland at Carl in case you didn't get the first time Um, are there new positions in there and uh that The budget is included that um Were filled but not advertised the other question is the You said they went from 40 hours to 32 hours Is that still considered full time with full time? You know at how much percentage of medicals at 97 percent they get 100 vision coverage Is it dental or is it based on 32 hours benefits? So, um The a third two hour position is still a full time position. Um, the Most of the benefits are based on full time. There are various things that get adjusted like I believe the Uh retirement gets adjusted. Well, yeah on that paying on that How about like, um For instance where some people work If you go to part time and you're you're getting if you work except 40 hours a week You're going to earn three hours a week sick time in vacation or whatever But if you go down it's adjusted to that how about that time or is it just you just dropped to eight hours But you're still that the position is still benefiting All it's still reaping all the benefits of a 40 40 hour position is what my question Um, that's a good question in terms of the accruals. I'd have to look at the personnel policy I don't know that answer right off the top of my head to find that out and how much is a percentage of Of the medical that actually is goes on That is part of the benefit. Are they paying 50 percent of their medical and then the city's paying the other 50? Are they getting paying three percent of their medical? Um, I'd like this, you know as far as let's see if it's on the same because Honestly for what the scale is that the city has for jobs out there. First of all, um, I Turn stay right on top of what's you have out there, but I think I missed a few jobs or they haven't posted yet Um, what's the one about the is there one per director? So let's ask the answer your question first about percentages So, uh, currently staff pay three percent of their health insurance three percent This proposed budget has uh six percent health care premium for employees to pay That gets worked out through various contracts and negotiations Um, and we're in the process of doing that right now um the Any positions that we just talked about in this proposal right now don't uh exist until july 1 2025 Because this is the budget that we're talking about for next fiscal year. So you haven't interviewed or put them out there the position that Is the only position that we're changing is going from a part-time position to a full-time position Uh, that part-time position, um, I believe because it's been vacant for a while Is actually posted right now, but And is that just the one the administrator's paying 84 000 a year? Sorry, I've got to find the speech Yeah, so it's a billing coordinator position And it's it's posted now as part-time and it's uh Depending on this budget and if it gets approved it could potentially go to full-time starting july 1 What's it paying again at part-time? The range is between 20 and 5 cents to 21 and 30 cents In full time it's going to go to It'll be the same pay rate Pay grade you said pay grade or hourly pay where you talking 21 to Hourly rate of pay. Yeah. So I just want to make sure I've got this right so With the new budget that you're putting through Um People are getting only being three percent of their health insurance premiums Um out of their paycheck, they're going to go to a whopping six percent Today in this fiscal year the Uh staff paid three percent of their pay towards the health insurance premiums. Yeah um The exact way that gets worked out is through uh contract negotiations This proposed budget is going to six percent um There's some places there that can be some cuts. I mean if we join the real world We pay a lot one three percent or six percent of ours So you ought to consider that because health insurance is killing everybody There's a suggestion we hear that suggestion Matter There anyone else for the question or comment on anything uh having to do with next year's fy 25 budget online, I don't see anyone online With the hand raised What are we what what are we focusing on now we're jumping around We're focusing on the fy 25 budget the budget you're going to vote on in april Yep It does feel like we're jumping around we've talked about several aspects of it, but Okay, well, I'm not seeing anyone online. I'm not seeing anything anyone in the room So i'll entertain a motion to close the public hearing on the fy 25 budget so moved Second Great, all those papers say aye. Aye Aye Great So we are moving on to We move the Okay, all right, so you've got your memo in the packet um with uh the question Answered that have come up thus far on the rental registry program um Folks can you please keep your comments a little quieter, please we're trying to Trying to hear each other, okay? um So as folks asked for we looked at the data so uh just so folks understand um the previous health or the long-term health officer for the city um our village I should say um Did not have digital reports so we cannot find those in terms of figuring out precisely what that information looks like in terms of rental housing code information since we've had um that switch over um to um health officers and we're um requesting monthly reports on those Um, that's why we've got one month of data and that is summarized and in the memo that you've got there One year did what did I say one month one year. Thank you We're speaking to um So I don't know for you folks how much you want uh us to go through this memo or Chris to go through this memo or if you have any further questions that you have in addition to what's in here um Also, this references the memo from um, uh chief caborio the fire department and um with some Initial thoughts of what it would look like if this program is in the fire department as opposed to in the community development department Chief is here If you've got any questions for him as well I think it'd be great to start with chief caborio Is that's the biggest change to the conversation at this point so chris if you don't mind coming up to that It's just the table right in front of you there. We moved it So we've we've got your memo. Um, I think we all read it And i'm curious if you if for everyone online and the folks in the room if you could take us through the highlights of what you shared with us Originally and so everyone knows originally we had proposed this Rental registry to be under the community development department and it would also handle some ordinance enforcement Sometimes these things go together. There were a number of reasons for this Um, we've had tremendous feedback over the past all the all the five years that i've been on the board and especially post separation That we really need to get to ordinance enforcement with the focus on merger and then separation um That was taking a backseat We also had a big transitions in our health officer Our long time health officer, which is essentially a volunteer position with the stipend retired And we now have someone stable. It's an employee with the who actually works for rekt We have the same model that the town uses one of their planning Believe it planning office employees also acts as their health inspector We for various reasons were interested in a rental registry and to keep it general fund neutral cost neutral in a sense of the overall property tax and to not add Too many fte's to the budget envision that program as being self-sustaining Because in a lot of ways they went together Planning commission spent a year looking at this in addition to their other work And talk to other communities did research there's a uvm graduate student group that assisted them with some of that And the program was initially as I said envisioned in the community development department Recently the state has moved a lot of that enforcement and inspection to the fire service on a state level and I'm probably miss identifying some of these terms so chief correct me, but um and the fire department has basically Come forward and said, you know, it makes a lot of sense for us to actually run this So we asked our fire chief briscoe boreo to share with us what that would look like How would the program like that run on the fire service for e-jfd? What would be the benefits? And so that's that's what we're doing right now There is a memo it's on our packet online if you want to read what he wrote But chief if you can take us through the highlights sure I mean the very big thing is again, we're responding to these buildings every day um Probably some of the most important buildings that that would be addressed here are some of the The rental properties again thinking more along the lines of the Smaller properties the individual homes some of the ones that's we're driving down main street You know, you can just tell you've got large parking lots. We've got Large structures that probably have three or four apartments located on the inside we We don't have any knowledge of How many apartments are in there? How many people are there? How many people are there during the day? um, how to access buildings like that so In an emergency That's the kind of information that we would find extremely valuable We um, we track a lot of this information. We have a database at the fire department We have one software program that basically tracks all of our business So we have all of our incidents are put into there our personnel records are in there our training records are in there There's also a section for property We have a lot of the properties loaded in there now um So again, this would just give us more data to be put in there more data for us To have available when we respond to these locations And you would need to so you would how would the staffing work? I mean staffing would work Again, if you had a full-time equivalent if you had a full-time person monday through friday um, my priority would be to see if we could fill out position from within our department um, that would give us One full-time individual that would also be there. I mean again priority would be to inspect But you'd also have an individual that would be there monday through friday during the day um as presented a couple weeks ago those are our peak times for calls and uh, it would assure that we Most of the time would have an additional resource available to uh to assist in those calls What does the what do you and your um firefighters see In the city for rental stock, what do you what's the? What have you seen out there? What's the status? right now What's the big picture? Big picture for most parts again, some of our larger buildings are well maintained um, some of the smaller rental properties are um, we have had issues in fact We went to alarms just last week Again where we pulled down CO alarm smoke alarms that were outdated, you know when they're outdated, you know, they're not going to function properly um, and when people can't sleep at two o'clock in the morning Neither can we because uh, we get we get dispatched to them and and that's what we find And that's not necessarily the sort of thing a tenant would pick up on Without prompting or no exactly I think most of the time people tend to push that test button as long as that alarm sounds they think they're okay um, it's a matter of taking that alarm off from the ceiling or wall And checking the data manufacturer those things will expire um smoke alarms in 10 years seal alarms in five years And now the newer ones even have an end of life chirp So It will chirp to let you know that it's expired we get plenty of calls because um My alarms are chirping and we've replaced the batteries, but it's still chirping and you we can Pretty much identify the problem before the first truck rolls out of the station Quick question just rough math I mean the with the number of calls you do in a year you give a general percentage of what you think Might be rental versus non-rental I wouldn't even begin to guess that wouldn't Marcus would that be information that you would have We would certainly And and some of the other things too is just again that basic knowledge of going to it going to um a building You know two o'clock in the morning and being able to have The property owner and be able to have that information available so we can make the call Again that happened to us Less than two weeks ago Where we had responded to a building it's two o'clock in the morning We can't get an alarm to reset and nobody seems to have Uh a number for the property owner So so the registry part of this being we have that kind of identified from the police chief as well Not having information on owners or owner contacts or property managers Correct cases of crisis or emergency. It's been an issue And and again that software I mean we have all that software available to us All the rental registry inspection codes Are all pulled down. I mean Captain Smith was able to Go into the software program and actually generate Generated check sheet. So The software is is all available for us Again, a lot of the property information is preloaded It would be awfully nice to be able to supplement that information If we had a rental registry program And the types of things you're all looking for when you do these inspections are different than The annual elevator inspections and other inspections that we've heard or Can layer on a landlord. Correct. Those would all be performed by the state So again looking at across the street, you know, they would their alarm systems would have to be inspected annually Boiler systems annually elevator systems annually. Um, this would be separate from that So that I understand. So in that particular case because you're saying the state administers that particular portion If we were to go into based on my understanding of the current draft We would go into agreement with the state therefore taking over the responsibility of Of this assignment the state that still end up doing that particular portion of the inspection Yes But they're inspecting different things correct. These are not duplicative test inspections Correct. And even when elevator inspections occur annually Elevators still cease to function for periods of time. Correct And the state has no minimum number of elevators required and Types of elevators. I'm not familiar with the elevator code But it's basically not So elevator inspections sprinkler inspections, boiler inspections, not what we're talking about. Correct. Okay, so Good Let's see that Chief the with this position also allowed us to ship gears for a second here also allow for the time of sale Public building inspections that are currently done by the division of fire safety or is that a totally separate thing You might not know the answer to yeah, I would not know the answer to that Yeah, any questions for chief I would like to understand a little bit more about kind of like what are In talking about what that inspection might look like what are the things that you're going to touch on Like how thorough will you need to go and inspect a property? because I think There's there is I don't know if if there's an understanding or not understanding because we're talking when we're talking about fire safety I think we're talking about a certain list of things But I think In the discussion, too, we've also been talking about building codes So, you know, and I think of a building inspector being a little different than a fire safety inspector So I just want to understand Or would the fire department be assuming both those roles if I'm clear on this question or Just looking at fire safety pieces just looking at the rental registry Inspection that's put out by the state of Vermont And I believe that's uh, we can get your copy. It's available. I believe there's like 77 items that would have to be inspected I've looked it over but so and then I'm clear because that based on my reading of our rental registry It sounded like there was also the potential for Like code and building code enforcement. Is that not Is that is that changing with the discussion if we move this to to the fire department or Is that still the hope For this particular plan So you you can chime in if you got this answer, but so essentially it's um Really looking at the rental housing code The there is a whole other Step that some municipalities do that we are not proposing doing whether it's going to the fire department or community development department Which is essentially the easiest way to think about it is new construction inspection Um, and that is not what we're talking about doing here. We're just talking about Ensuring that these rental apartments Meet the requirements of the state rental housing code So the state so the residential Vermont residential rental housing health and safety code also references Uh, you know other applicable codes that that's a rental property and all public buildings are subject to already That one of them is the fire and building safety code so Residential rental housing health and safety code talks a lot about um, you know things like mold and and if there's heating and whatnot But and it also says that you have to meet the other code, which is where things like, um Like the uh smoke detectors and whatnot Are Under you know, we've okay. So are there any other questions for chief? I Asked a question not quite yet, but thanks just we'll get to we'll get to um Anything no, all right. Thank you We're not quite to that portion Uh, is anything else folks want to talk about about this program? We've got chris's answers to our questions from This is basically the first time we've had a chance to talk about this as a public area So we've got chris's answers to the general questions and some of the questions that we've asked All right, you see intention to have Um more public comment and then Well, I'd like to have our conversation first and then we can take questions and decide if we want to keep talking about Do you have anything? in So like in terms of just why we're doing this, I guess just to start that process off Uh, I know when we had first talked about this lane when you were on the board earlier of 2016 We had first brought this up as a possibility Um to really help change the paradigm shift that exists today Around the health inspection system the health officer system is a reactionary system It is one where somebody needs to logic complaints in order for something to happen The rental registry system is meant to flip that on its head In instead is to be a proactive system So that way someone doesn't have to call to then have there be some person of knowledge coming in to make sure that they're living in a safe place So that was one of the intents The other intent of that is also just the unwritten reality that's in vermont's rental System a landlord can choose to not extend the lease If they don't want to once the lease terms are up one of the things that the vermont legal aid has Documented many instances of is when there are people who do complain It so happens that there are times where those Those renters do not then get a lease extension I'm not saying that to say that happens every time because we know that that's not the truth But it does happen And so by changing the system from a reactionary system to a proactive system We no longer have to require tenants to Engage in what can be a conflictive relationship with their landlord and instead can help to be more proactive to prevent these things from happening to begin with A couple of things I would like to see just within our ordinance should we go through this and I hope we do go forward with this One is that we ensure that the fees that are assessed annually are revisited to make sure that we're not that the city isn't creating a stockpile of cash That this is not something that is used to lower the general fund But frankly is purely to discover the costs of the program So that that way those user fees for those who do participate in this program So those rental units are not charged more than they need to so that way there can be some kind of not necessarily true up because I don't think we could then refund But to make sure that we don't you know have that That savings account for this The other one is year after year VHFA first started the concept around a statewide rental registry 15 20 I'm trying to remember what Sarah carpenter used to talk about 20 30 years ago. I don't remember now Um Should the state do that? I think we should put within our ordinance that we will revisit this conversation about whether we want to maintain our own city Rental registry or whether we want to Go with the state model Just from the sense of as we've heard earlier Why do we want to pay for something if somebody else is already doing it and we're going to be charged for? But to make sure that we don't have duplicative services If they're not necessary, but as it stands now there is not such a system that exists Uh, the last thing I wanted to mention um The portion around individuals with section 8 housing just to be clear When someone has section 8 their their rent is capped to 30 of their income So if their rent goes up and their income does not go up That does not necessarily mean that their rent will then increase because it's based off of how much money they make Just so we Have that understanding And right now the state has proposed There is there are conversations around increasing the number of inspectors in the state level But I don't think that that in no way should perform things that they're going to pro-active inspections. It's not a rental registry, right? So I first want to really acknowledge The incredible amount of hard work that chris has done Regina has done And our attorneys and all of the effort that has gone into doing this work It's been a and you and all of us it's been a very heavy lift To do this to get as far as we've gotten so far. So I really want to acknowledge and thank Everyone for that effort um I just have a few general remarks and then Just a few general remarks In this whole process particularly with tonight and the last hearing that we had We have heard from very few tenants and We have heard a lot of anecdotes about issues with apartments But we don't have the data to back it up And now going forward now that we have a new system and a new health officer and new processes in place We will be collecting that data and I think that is absolutely essential um We have heard that there are plenty of recourse options for tenants and We are also hearing that the recourse options available Are not responsive or are not available So we're hearing a lot of conflicting information about What tenants are able to do in the event that they have Issues with their apartment Or their unit my personal concern is that there are tenants Who are trapped between an unresponsive landlord and an unresponsive state system Whatever recourse options those are and they're stuck in an apartment that is unsafe And they are being ignored by all of their options And they're afraid to complain because of retaliation from their landlord including non-renewal of leases So all of that said I have also been part of municipal initiatives That needed to go back to the drawing board As frustrating as that has been and as publicly as embarrassing as that has been And I also want to acknowledge that a rental registry has been a part of That has been intended for years. It is in the 2016 version of our comprehensive plan Which was approved by voters So a rental registry is going to happen It's a matter of timing and degree And how we can get it done So considering all of that and considering the financial impacts that we are expecting from the statewide education tax Which are unknown at this time Utility rate increases the city budget increase I think it's appropriate for us to continue working on this proposal And explore further how to accomplish its goals while minimizing its impact so I agree with the idea of keeping it as a line item in the budget But as you said Raj, if we don't do anything we're not touching that money and that revenue is not coming in So i'm okay with keeping that in the budget but It is I think we need to go back to the drawing board Amber did you have anything you wanted to share? Can you come back to me after? Sure I'm expecting that answer Amber I think you know, I largely agree Elaine. I think you know, this is a complex issue I watched a lot of south bruntits process. I heard a lot of good ideas from Testimony they took and from their process Um I want if we're going to do this I want us to be able to do what some other communities do which was which is you know provide something back besides just the inspection provide tenants um with Checklists um provide some kind of welcome to the community resource information Provide basically the handbook that I think cboeo provides But tailor to our community I'd like to figure out how we handle those very rare but expected Stances where a tenant has to be removed while an issue is resolved Don't have anything in mind, but I imagine when you put something like this together There is going to be an opera. There's going to be an instant someday when some issue has to be resolved and Some communities I want to say very Maybe another Require landlords to do that relocation I wonder if we don't take a Dollar from every one of these you know create some kind of fund was a dollar from every one of these registration fees And put into a fund that either a landlord or a tenant can apply for to mitigate some of that So if there is an issue with and these are just ideas that we can consider along the way But if there is an issue that's so egregious that a landlord will then be houseless then There is assistance for both the property owner or the tenant To apply for those funds and and be able to Have some place to go while While their wall repairs are being made or whatever form But I I'd you know, I mean watched and listened to some of the other conversations I'd really like us to to try to figure out how to How do we Provide more to both parties with this than just the inspection um to your data comment Part of the impetus for this a big part of the impetus for this and for every other community that's done this Is just the sheer vacuum of information To chief's point and police chief's point and to other people we've heard from we just don't know what the apartments are We are 42 percent apartments in the city right now We expect to be much higher than that in the next five to ten years much higher We could exceed the majority being apartments in the city at some point Maybe We don't have a grasp of what that impact is. We don't have we don't know where they are. We don't know the condition they're in And that is when you're planning out 10 to 20 years and you're trying to figure out What your needs will be That's a huge vacuum of data so I think if we can figure out a way to get the cost down And provide a little bit more back to both parties and figure out how to get that information without violating anyone's privacy Um Then that I think we'll have something but I think we we do need to continue to figure that out. Um I don't think we need to rush into it So that that's just my input. I'd like to keep I'd like to keep us focused on on that, you know, so we've got the bare bones. We know what Planning commission did. I'd also kind of like to hear One time I guess from the planning commission about this concept of You know, some of these things what have they talked about? What have they not talked about? but their feedback on the community development versus fire department um run And I think for no other reason as they spent a year on this and And I don't know that we have to have a joint meeting for that Maybe they want to send the chair and a couple representatives over and we can have a conversation um but I think that there is good for both parties that can come from this. Um I think some communities have used that small five guy I think south brollington's using five dollars to create a fund for landlords Who learned that they have a repair to make but maybe not be able to afford it So they can apply for that grant or that Well, you know, I don't know how they're funding it But they're five dollars from every one of their hundred and fifty dollar fee. They just approved last week goes to that fund um And that provides something back to so the community that is getting built There is no real way. I think um chris you spoke to this a couple meetings ago I think the planning commission considered how do you how do you look at not including new buildings And only including older buildings. How do you build differently? How do you change the rate? How do you change the amount? And I've seen various suggestions on this um But before you know it a new building becomes an old building Or a new building becomes a Building with issues we've seen that with some of our newest buildings Um very recently and ever since they've gone up So there really isn't a way to Have some graduated system for billing That would I think be predicated on the fact that you have endless additional buildings being built and we will We will max out I think soon So that's those are my thoughts I think there's still more to explore But we should probably Provide staff with specific requests Um, so that we're not so we're back here not in two to four weeks In the same boat Marcus Amber do you want to go before me? Are you ready? Sorry, I couldn't find my need button. Uh, no Marcus. You can go before me at the time. Okay. I'll go after you. Thanks um Do you want to say that um The recently my biggest concern is the cost impact on renters um because of the fact that for In in my experience, I've been a renter I have been a renter for many many years before being a homeowner I have had landlords that were great In this community and I've had landlords that were terrible. Luckily. No not in this community um But also looking at again the the numbers that have been provided about where we are with the issue and Believe me, I have said this publicly before and about other topics I would like to see government be proactive versus reactive which they have a tendency to be But in this particular case Based on where we're at right now Based on the fact that I still have I think some outstanding outstanding questions about its structure One of the things that I've learned along the way too And for this process and through the other aspects of because again my first year here on the council I think one of the things that I would like to have seen was The planning commission come of you know when this was presented to be here With that presentation to help With some of that initial conversation and maybe address some of these issues because I think we are also asking questions Of things that they have already gone down the road of um But that being said, I think there's still some outstanding questions. So I agree that Another conversation that includes them in some form of fashion. I think would be great. Um My reaction at the moment is I believe We should Let the fire department We should go into agreement with the state and keep that inspection program local But I'm not saying with the rental registry at the moment. I'm saying we Manage the state program locally here in the city Because we can do that for the next year Be a part of that process Get more information collect more data what we need to in order to understand this better in order to In order to stand up a program that I think we're hoping is more dynamic than just checking the fire checking fire alarms. So I would like to be able to take that time that being said I Right now would like to remove it from the budget and the reason is because it's impacting the tax rate Well, okay. Keep going. I want to know what we're going to talk about the budget if you got us Yeah, so I'm just saying I think I think you know, so that's how I'm looking at it right now because I think We could use the time and I understand this discussion has been going on for many years But for us It's only happened in the last few months the planning commission has been on it longer, but I don't believe that we have had necessarily the conversation or the Or are really vetted this In great detail because this is structurally I think a bigger thing than just When they're not we have an inspector on site or an inspector available to go to hit every rent we can do in the community um So I think there's things for us to explore before we consider this um Anyway, I will leave it at that but I think for right now I do not want to add more burden Financial burden to renters because this will get passed down And so for me right now I'm I've been in favor of continuing our conversation because I'm not prepared to make move this forward So your suggestion to bring in Inspection without this program is that a real suggestion or based on yes, that's yeah based on what the chief is Suggested that there they can do and take on. I think it's something that would not add An Enormous burden just to take on the complete base system that the state is currently doing Well, do you want to speak to that? Do you want me to answer? So that would cost that would be a significant fte Edition they can't do it as currently staffed. It would be a hire of a full-time person for this budget We're talking about in your scenario. I built did you chief? I'm sorry if I'm Not remembering your comment before but I seem to remember an initial I think a building a building code inspector is is much higher level Yeah, but if we're talking about just standing up the complete based system that the state currently administers if we take that on locally Then all we're doing is is taking on any complaints. We're not we're not doing proactive enforcement That's what I'm saying. We have that with health and based on what I see from the state program And when I read from other communities, there are some communities that just administer it locally They do not have a full rental registry They just administer that program locally. So they stay in context because as Elaine as Elaine mentioned and I've also heard One of the disconnects. I think is while the state program may be administering this program currently We locally do not necessarily have that connection that clear connection. So there's a disconnect when there's a problem locally And so we hear about it if the state doesn't feel if they're not administering it fast And so if we keep it local in our own hands, then we will be able to control I think we'll be able to handle it better if we can keep it, but I don't know why we would need a FTE in order to manage a complete base Well, that's what Gina just said, but I thought you were talking about implementing the full inspection process that we've been talking about Without no, no, no, no. I'm talking about this just going into an MOU with the state to Take the responsibility of that Play-based system thing So it's um, I don't know if it's possible Um, we're in a little bit of a new world right now because so what you're essentially describing is basically what existed prior to december of prior to january of this year because the department of health Did this work with the local health officers? And so the first point of contact if a tenant had an issue was to contact our local health officer What's changed at the state level is the division of fire safety has taken that over Still complaint based system and they go uh tenants go to them first and foremost Then our health officer is involved uh through that process if need be This is a relatively new way that this is happening because it just started in january If we could I don't know and I don't know if either of you know the answer if we could Locally through an MOU Take be the first person on that complaint based system back here again locally And so I don't know that answer we can find that out and then two if we were to do that Um, do we have the proper resources to make that happen? Um, we'd have to I think collectively think think through that There there are also maybe other ways to Not take it over but be involved When when they get When they get it Yeah, I'd be curious to see um their format for data sharing I mean part of what's in this code right now is that this data is public And part of the benefit of a rental registry for tenants anyway is that They now or will have an opportunity depending on your program setup To actually find out what they're getting into before they sign at least It sort of changes that power dynamic from being the one to provide all of the um Access into your life with your credit report and everything else but then gives the the tenant an opportunity to review um In an ideal world what the um What's what the property history is like before they sign at least? Um, I'm not sure what you're trying to Because I'm trying to find I'm trying to find a place where again if we're trying to gather more intelligence in understanding The problem in order to understand the nature of Of what's happening in our community. I'm and by us some time to have further discussions on the rental registry I'm just trying to see if there is a happy medium and based on again Looking at the state program. It looks like there are municipalities that Don't have rental registries that are Just in agreement with the state because if I go and file a report There are municipalities that don't have rental registries that if I put in that I live in said community The state pop-up says This is the this is the person you need in contact with us in this power. Yeah, so they're not even taking in the complaint They're already saying Here's the person locally you need to talk to that health officer. They list a number of contacts and I'm I'm wondering if we can't Do something along those lines. So I'll add to that request then I'd like to know First in addition um What data sharing already exists because I don't want us to take on You know, we need to have a health officer, but then we're we're basically asking back asking for work back that we're not being reversed for Um, essentially, I mean this program was supposed to be revenue neutral um due to the load so if we're Going to assume we're going to do this work. I just want to know if they're going to how they're going to share data So are we going to get that monthly? Can we ask for it on incident basis? Is it quarterly? Or just not available, which I have a hard time believing but um You know, what's what is there is their data available? And what's the because it is new like what's the process for keeping map informed our health officer Is there is there an avenue of communication? Is there a Path of communication that's just default that hasn't really Kicked in yet You know like they may just cc him on stuff and say so you're aware And maybe that's just a tweak they can make I mean if a community asks it says, you know, this would be really valuable information for us to have Um, because when we go for x issue, we think it's the first time But if you've already talked to this person about other things The cumulative effect of that property would be nice for us to know You know what I mean and if we're answering for I don't know I can't think of anything right now one problem that we're sort of responsible for And they're answering for another and we don't put those together Um, I think that's probably what a little bit of what you're getting at right making sure we have the accurate data yeah, but I I Feel like the experience is the state if we were in agreement with the state then there would there would be no data to get from If if if what you're asking is can we get the past data from what they already have but it's relatively new systems I don't know how much They currently will have on hand, but I think it's a reasonable ask. Yeah, I can find out Remember I saw some nodding. Are you ready? Yeah, I'll keep it brief. Um, so again, I I just want to thank thank you to everyone including the planning commission for all the work that's gone on for the um The past year plus I have always been in the minority in this situation because I don't necessarily believe that the inspection piece is imperative Um, but I do think that there's a significant value of knowing the rental registry stock that we have But I have learned a lot of your information and I in addition to saying thank you to those folks that've already been thanked I think the community that's come out including landlords and tenants to provide Feedback to the program And I've learned a lot of information from everyone in this And and look forward to continuing this discussion, but I am in a similar situation where I'm not ready to to vote on this. I do have some additional questions thoughts concerns and also agree with Marcus in that my position on the budgetary piece that this would be to remove the rental registry component from the budget though I think Marcus mentioned this being a general fund impact Again, it's net neutral. So I do think it's not impacting but I do think that My my position would be to remove it Just to be clear that we're continuing to work on this that there is no for there is no decision That we are going to move forward in the next six months 12 months 18 months or two weeks for the public Okay, thank you Oh, you said you had a number of questions um I've heard that a couple times if you're ready for them. It would be a great time to share them um So that staff can bring us back answers I'll only speak for myself.  I do think Marcus's Thoughts are interesting. I'd like to hear some of that Part of it is I think I need to do a little bit more research and I think that a lot of the conversation has been A lot of the questions that I have have been previously answered and I don't want to answer I don't want to ask them again. So things like comments about You know the 500 units and how we're addressing those and is there a way around Um, treating those differently or the the multiple inspections for section eight tenants Um, or you know subsidized housing and stuff. So I think from my own position I don't I don't think I have that's my long way of saying I don't think I have anything tonight Okay So right now we're we're basically asking for more information on how The interchange works with the state and what that looks like Both in terms of like what it would look like if we adopted it or To respond primary responsibility. It sounds like and or What kind of data sharing is available? Even even regardless of whether we take it over we I think we want to know that Sounds like we want the want to get together with a couple at least a couple representatives of the planning commission and I guess Um, this is for number one up before by Regina, you know, potentially a either a joint meeting or just have representatives come by And I think I'd be curious to know um And I you know, I think I'd like us to work on you know What can we also be bringing to this like I said earlier? So, you know in the next while we're waiting for that information the counselors can can look around and say, you know How do we make this work? How was it just not an inspection and a feed collection? What resources um our other community is providing for both parties as part of this and Be curious if there was a creative way to Adjust fees based on age of unit, but I have not seen one Scheme that would it would work Nor of any communities That I've seen adopted anybody. I don't pretend to have seen them all So yeah, so why don't we take public comment and then we can come back to talking about this Matt I'm gonna start with you because I didn't want to call on you before because I wasn't calling on anybody But matt who's standing up with a gray shirt is also a captain in our fire department Sorry, I'm sorry. Great. Sorry. Sorry. Yes. Sorry. Great. You've got matt in the mind Matt is our health officer who's also his brother. Yeah Uh-oh a couple points on that the health officer thing that is in the budget So that line item was supposed to cover it and the fire department has already said We'll take over the health officer role if that is like the move. So that is one of the things Jamie Schwab who is the fire inspector in the region whenever he does a building inspection Asked one of our fire fighters. Usually our lieutenant keepers to join him So we're already going to most the inspections that are occurring and we're tap We're joining those inspections with the state when those happen Another common way inspections happen is not through The residents but through the fire department reporting it We're probably the most common reporter of concerns of buildings that we come across in the community So when we come across them, we also report like, hey, we think there's a life safety issue here We believe there's some type of problem with this building and we'll put that information and we'll send it up to the state and request an inspection Usually when we request an inspection happens with about 15 days Um, is what we have found. Um, it's a little bit different. It's an authority requesting it and It's a little bit different because it's an authority asking the state to do it And I think there's a little bit of a different Jamie also is a local firefighter and it was most of us. So he has personal relationships with a lot of us So when we ask him, there's kind of that aspect of like I'm getting asked by a friend to come help out. Uh, I think at times that does help out with that relationship that we have with the state Um, the state is the entity that trains all of us. So they see us consistently like they know Uh chief chief runs chief is the head of the chitin county chiefs So he knows all those connections throughout the area and those relationships are what have been helping us through Uh, the conversation what we've been providing as well Um, that sounds great Does chris have the data that you have so you're saying you're going out on You're you're tagging along on these, um inspections that So do we have that data too because I kind of feel like we probably don't Uh, so what's funny is it comes back to us. So and then we have it in our we have a property management tool Sorry, if you would like a login to our property management tool, I could get to it Um, but then I would probably have to teach you how to use it because it took me about two years figure I guess my yeah, my point is right My point is that's data we don't have for this and I'm just learning that we might have data from inspections that have occurred So let's have the fire department and um Staff connect about how to revise our data. Okay from the last give us a period. Um And because we didn't I don't think anybody here knew that That was going on. Yeah um Or that our folks were involved Sure, this is getting a little out of hand, but um, it's what happens when the smiths come to the meeting um, I'm curious on a Complaint-based call to the state versus a complaint-based call to the health officer Because I know how the state operates generally the health officer will generally go and deal with Strictly that complaint. Do we know if it's a complaint to the state when the state comes in if they only deal with that complaint or it's a property reviewed totally When the state does it normally the state will come in kind of like OSHA, right somebody gets hurt. OSHA expects to hold up Yeah To find out what other problems we're we're not there. Do you know that so we're 59 days into uh, the state running this program under the Vermont fire And so with that we have not had one of those yet. And so We have not heard of a case we can request that and we could get that information for you But we have not had a we are under So the process is online It's a for me full out We have not seen the state has not reported that they've done inspection based off from that complaint process to us Wonder if that's translated and available for new americans. Yep. And so even 59 days that they've been running that program I'm betting no Thanks, of course. Well, I'm prompt to um Amber can't see it. I was just gonna comment that based on my personal experience in which the state has has done an inspection based on a complaint Um, they are going through the whole list. They do So they are they are addressing the entire list Yeah, so when just based on my own experience Every time we've joined they've done nfpa one They've done nfpa one to one and they've done the registry if they were doing it at the time The all three of those are covered. Okay Thank you, of course. Sorry. I'm a staff so Is there anyone in the room, um, we'll start with the room Is there anyone in the room that has any questions or comments based on what we've talked about so far on the reginal registry only Sorry, come on if you don't mind coming to the Oh, sorry. I didn't see the boot Okay, me or somebody.  Please come up. Just make now. I feel bad making your move I just had a David Harrington again. I I just had a question based on uh an earlier comment from I believe it was anthony If this were to be in place would a tenant have the right to refuse an inspection? I don't think so, but I can we can look into that. Okay, so, um, Doesn't that raise kind of a constitutional issue? Because it doesn't appear to in Vermont yet. Um, because the state, I mean, I'm saying that only based on we will look into it But I think it it doesn't in the sense that the state has already implemented this program And I think if this and the state, you know, but I wonder specifically addressed a tenant's refusal to to allow an Oh, you mean without or without a complaint first without a complaint first is what I'm getting at because, um The Vermont constitution actually affords greater protection in the area of search and seizure than the u.s. Constitution does And so it might I'm just suggesting it might be a problem that you would run into if if uh, people were to to try to seek legal remedy in this situation I think it's worth checking if we haven't had we've had legal review on this and we haven't had any of that feedback So that's that's probably the most I could say. Thank you. Yes, please. I'm sorry. You're gonna have to Understood you great that uh, there was uh, basically if you I'm sorry, could you say Rolinda again if you don't know Um, but there was a comment. I thought that I heard saying that basically it was all Landlords here. There's no tenants.  I just wanted to let you know that there's plenty of tenants here Someone made that maybe it was on I said that we have not heard from many to this I know there are I know there are tenants in the audience. Oh, no two of them got up Correct. We're from far more landlords than we have from tenants. That's all Do you want to get them? Come on up. That'd be great Watch your step around the camera tripod, please If you should share your name where you're from Charlie Lancaster I'm at the village of autumn pond uh, been a tenant and uh uh resident of Essex Junction for about eight years uh We are a A more modern facility. So we do meet code and the facility itself does their own inspection But I don't know what the rush is to Get into this inspection business and uh, what the board is looking To do I haven't heard A list of Complaints or reasons why You know any any positive reasons for getting into the process And I don't know whether the board has considered that It doesn't seem that the board is prepared to Go the next step and I think you have some work to do which I think you recognize and Organizing this and I don't know what to suggest But don't rush into being a real city I You know Things worked out fine as a town Since I've been here for eight years If you look around the country Cities are in trouble Towns Are not so much You have to consider that why is that Why is that I think From from a town base, it's more collegial People tend to work together My impression is that if you're Come from a city It's more cutthroat You know more more competitive so Take your time Do your homework Come with a proposal Identify the problems Lay out the statistics of some of the the folks here have done was very helpful So if you're going to advocate for a change Based that on evidence that you have Yeah, and it looks like the fire department is a place to collect some of that I'm not familiar that Well with the town structure is you have a building inspector want to inspect and inspections do for new buildings or If people ask for buildings building permits Is that prompt another Investigation or review of the residents So think about it take your time. There's no rush We're not going anywhere as long as the the community is healthy And it appears that it is so let's not Jeopardize that Thank you Oh there's Steve you want to share something with us Steve please join us Sure. Thank you so just You know a couple things I thought A brief phrase from earlier on the topic in terms of the You know the fire chief mentioned while we're looking for 77 things And then there's the question of the nested items and You can structure things You know as you work through this process. So this is exactly what we're going to have check and you know It doesn't change until you all change it because like for me I'm the type of person I'm sure I'm not unique Where I want to see the list of 77 items that I'm going through them Well ahead of time so that by the time somebody were if somebody were to come over the house To inspect I know I'm going to pass like to me. It's all about the uncertainty And and all of that and I don't want to and I know Somebody had mentioned earlier like oh, yeah, we're not trying to do a building inspection program um like a code uh building codes type of program But like we don't want to have a back door into something like that because of like the nesting of of these things that can then say Oh, you know, you do have to have that thing and I know sometimes with building codes some things are grandfathered and some are It just becomes um Very difficult to understand so When you come up with your program, it would be great and maybe it's you know Two documents one is the basic registry And then and then another thing could be You know and it references A different document that the city owns that has the 77 items or whatever the right number of things is that everyone agrees and maybe you start with You know sounds like there's that first thing to start with and then you know, maybe that changed over time Maybe it doesn't but everyone can see in plain sight what they need to accomplish And I think that's a lot of the things that Um, I hear people worried about Um, you know, nobody intentionally wants to do anything wrong But it sure is nice to see him list of exactly What's being looked at looked for so that you can be responsible and have it done ahead of time, right? Anyway, so that's just what I was thinking. I don't got any questions on that or if that makes sense Thanks, Steve I think I think the intention of course would be to like right now We have off the page listing what we've done so far and that this program is being looked at a link to the Code we're going to inspect against proposed. We're proposing to inspect against and I think You know the interesting thing for me about what you're saying and and I understand what you're saying And I'm not trying to be argumentative But you know, for instance, my wife is in a very regulated business And she files multiple licenses with OPR and state secretary of state every year just did it just talked about it It was a thing You know, it sucks But she's also required to know What's expected of her to operate under her license and operate under her business So I I hear exactly what you're saying and we will absolutely make sure every and that's kind of what I was getting at before If if we're going to do this we want to make sure that everybody has everything up front and we're providing something more than just the inspection Like here's what we're going to do. Here's how it's going to work Here's how it's here's something for the tenant to know what's happening and here's something so the landlord knows what what's happening So I agree completely But I do find I am also hearing something that's kind of funny. It's like If you're operating a business that is literally the most important aspect of a person's life where they live And you have that much power and control over their life Then you really need to know What your responsibility is And I think when I'm asked why this is important to me Is because there's that inherent power dynamic and I've been a tenant half my life in great situations and terrible situations And I've had to hand over enormous amounts of personal data Recently to get my daughter in apartment as an adult so There is a power dynamic I've heard from plenty of landlords and I can't are tenants and I can't produce those because They're all nervous Because they have no place else to live that they're not in a position to Ask for an inspection for their apartment So there are reasons we're doing this, but I completely hear what you're saying I just wanted to share that I that that strike me as a little odd that And I feel for you that you're that it's so complex that you're worried That you're not going to know something you're supposed to do So I think yeah, definitely a goal for this program is make sure that everything is transparent Everything that's going to be looked at is up front and that both parties know You know, this is how it's going to operate. This is what the concern is This is what the interest is, you know Don't really care what your bathroom looks like as long as the hot water works that kind of thing You know, like it's going to be fairly rudimentary, but this is what we're looking at so Exactly and the first document that was pointed to in chris's memo was very Very straightforward and I went through every item like way that makes sense that makes sense Yeah, yeah, and all looks fine But then it's when you get into the nested nature that there's other things pointed to that's where it kind of got Yeah, and so and that's where it would be really nice if however you do it It would be all in one spot and easy and it sounds like that's what you're thinking Yeah, I think it would have to be yeah because as as we were shown in that it wasn't because He had to read this thing and then that thing and then the other thing But anyway, that's all Thank you appreciate your viewpoint. I agree safety is imperative and and we all have same. Thank you so much. Thanks Is there anyone else in the room that wants to comment on this right now? We're welcome to Sure, come on up Basis brothers to have street. Um, so is there an exemption for owner occupied or short short term rentals? Chris, can you describe how that's gonna is proposed to work? So short term so short term rentals would be treated the same as long-term rentals under the draft ordinance Owner occupied it depends. It's by the unit. So an owner occupied units if you are if you are Renting out a room within your house, but you share space Uh that under the draft ordinance would be exempt, but uh if you own a duplex Um, and you live in one of those units the unit that you live in would be exempt But the unit that you're renting out will not be exempt. So now Okay, so, um, I don't know of many instances where people get paid without doing any work So how do you justify collecting fees every year and then only providing services? Once every five years The opportunity and the need for the inspector is based on the history and the performance of the property So we're basing it on that. That's how it's being discussed right now so so One year service and five years of fees people pay for insurance. They pay for licenses. They register. Yeah, but they get services every year Not necessarily time. What other instances? That's the example I gave earlier. I Agree. I don't disagree with you on some of these things. Yeah, I mean life had the same argument with her medical lists I mean, so how do you justify taxing tenants? I mean, this is a net zero program, but you're taxing tenants So how do you justify that? I think we've talked about that already It's doesn't bother you at all not taxing anybody. We're charging a fee for your car Yeah, you're charging fees and you're not providing services only that's one out of every five years And we've talked about that too one fifth That's a bad deal Nobody likes it. Okay. It's a huge invasion of privacy Um There was two more than two tenants that spoke tonight about it. So it's not just landlords um So you're adamant about this registry and you're you want to bring something other to the table other than fees and inspections What is that? What are you going to bring to the table? I think I talked about there earlier. No, you didn't you said you want to do something but can you give us some examples? I mean, what can you do? I think we just discussed the possibility. Can you reiterate for me because maybe I'm a bit slow I think we'd be happy to do that jason and I think it's worth Remembering that we have said multiple times that we're we still aren't done right that we have research to do So you don't know yet We understand that there are other towns that have Set aside funds from the fees that they collect from renters from landlords that go towards Grant pools or other funding sources for landlords to use To make repairs that they can't afford to make so that's one option And we'll explore others But we don't know what they are yet because we have more questions to just say that we don't research We just made a long winded excuse. We didn't say that. Okay. Well, I mean the last comment I'll make is just Don't HR we are a city. That's what you guys are doing People don't like it Thank you Is there anyone else in the audience here in person? I'm just going to check zoom Okay You don't know my name and because we know your name, but the person who uh, it's taking our minutes Okay, we'll land a curl. Thank you. So I just want to make sure I'm getting exactly What everybody's saying here. So basically you have no answer You the registry if I understood was it legal age? You said Is not to make any money. It's supposed to take him where it's supposed to break even so none of it's going to hit the general fund Did you say correct? So? With the calculation of the apartments in the place if it's 250,000 but you guys said a hundred 150 whatever it was it was awkward a bit a lot of a lot of money more than I make um With that extra money was that because Uh, you didn't have all your ducks in row and you put it out there Or was it going to go elsewhere and it got changed tonight when that was brought up I'm not sure what you're referring to Well, because there was two different numbers You know, you guys said 150 was it and if you count the the house the the apartments in The village will now see it would have been 250,000 if you if it would have been a hundred thousand dollars more um Where was that money going to go if this had slid right through well In that scenario if there were extra money It would stay in the fund that it's intended for and as Andrew brown pointed out a few minutes ago One of the things we really want to look at is so We've taken in more money than we have expenses for how do we adjust those fees to make sure that Goes down. Okay. So because right now Part of the purpose of the registry is to get a picture. We don't We don't know when exactly to hold on. We don't know exactly how many and where those apartments are We are basing this off information from various sources, but again We don't necessarily have folks telling us when they're renting out part of their house or their whole house So we don't know we've done some very good deduction. I think and I think chris can probably speak to this And I think the number that we're basing that budget on is about 70 percent Accuracy, so we think we can identify and have Of those identified apartments receive registrations from about 70 percent of what's actually out there It's an estimate. Okay on What we've had from ccrpc and some other sources and what we've been able to gather from our grand list So if so if we raise more money, it would go it would stay there right and ideally Were no other were no other changes made like if we didn't take a dollar per registration for Grants for landlords for instance if it was strictly we take in money. We pay the employee That would I would think almost need to then Be taken into account to then reduce the fees in the following year So way that it reached as close to zero What wouldn't you be better off if it gets that far first of all, um, I will say this and I've Put it in print We are the city the city is the people you are You guys have been elected in there in which are you to position that doesn't mean That you're going to be there forever. Okay, so It just says you're elected. You are speaking for the city So what it sounds like is that They're not hearing us So with that said, why don't you start off you can If it gets even that far Why don't you start off low 50 and then if and and if you don't make what you're looking for the next year Then reconsider it because you've got the fact as a good point. Yes. It's a good point And we have to hire somebody To do this this takes this takes a person that has salary and benefits And then if there's a difference then we have to we can cover it We'd have to go to the general fund and raise taxes to backfill that until such time that we could raise them But then there's the unpredictability for you If we start 42 of where we should be there were and we started let's say we started $45 And that doesn't work after the first year, but we really needed 98 Then we're coming to you for 43 more dollars the very next year and the feedback we'll get is why do I have a 95% increase in my Rental registry rate. Why didn't you know ahead of time? So it is a good I understand You can't have it both ways is the problem You guys want to go high and then if it does if you don't you don't you don't have all your ducks in We're all so you're throwing this out here. So the bottom line is Right now the state does have it covered and why don't you Leave it alone. We we didn't have a problem until we went into a city The few people that had a problem must have taken it up with you, but I'll tell you one thing I have yet to run into anybody in Essex that has complained about their landlords So I think our experiences are different, but I well you lived elsewhere as far as I've lived in Essex my whole life And didn't you say you rented to you were renter? I've been here for I don't know that we need to witness test How long everybody's been here but I've been here for 20 years and county in Vermont for 40 30 been not been since I was born, but I'm just stating that I've owned property Been landlords since I was 18 But the bottom line here is It's not broke leave it alone and deal with the handful And please listen to the people are we the Is a city I just want to know this one question. Who runs the city you guys are the people I think there's the perception that when Who do when we come and we speak at a meeting like this that were the only voices that were that are heard And we hear you we've Absolutely hear you and we're not moving forward with us because we have genuine concerns many of them yours How do we keep housing affordable? But what I want to say to your question is we were absolutely a Valid voice to be listening to but you're not the only voice we're hearing from Everybody and you're not the only voices we're hearing from either We're the other ones you're no less important and you're no less valid and we take all of that I've speaking for myself take all of that very much to heart which is why We're we're trying very hard not to rush through this And we're taking our time to make sure that if this is something we want to do that it is sustainable And it can be But there's no we're not voting in two minutes to to move this along and I think that says a lot It wasn't I think you can take Jason's idea. We can be able to vote on it as a city. We have we have time now We're probably not going to be at a place where we can do that this year Well, we're in no rush to get there take uh, I'm sorry. What was your name again, sir? The one you told Charlie don't don't rush on it. This is going to affect a lot of people and the only thing you and I mean lection is coming up what this year You know, so what's the rush those those few people that are contacting you I think I want to express that I agree with you. Okay, and I don't think that we're trying to rush I think that we're Okay, let's moving on tonight and asking more questions Um And everything, you know, again back to the intention of sending out the card to make sure everybody was aware of this We're we're not going to do anything without making sure folks are aware that we're going to talk about this again That's the question. I wanted to ask you is that a uh somewhere along the states Guidelines that when it's something brand new that has to be milked out initially So what where are you putting other than um, where where do you have to List everything for people to see on our website and in certain other What's our other places because not everybody can go to a website. It's sx reporter Uh-huh just for regular agendas. Yes for legal notices. What's going on? Oh legal notices sx reporter Um website, uh, we post it out here. We posted at the library. I think our third place now is we posted at ejrp That's the public public wise as far as we get it post things on front porch forum Yeah, city of s extraction. Yes, but those are where you have to you have to i'm just saying the first the first ones that Regina listed off were the state regulations. That's one. That's where that's where we have to do it Okay, and I wanted to know if that mailing was one of them. Nope. That mailing is something we wanted to do um that kind of That kind of community outreach and newsletter, you know making sure people are You know involved and informed Um because I can tell you Other communities that have just done this None of this Four people show up five people show up. They did not go through that stuff Maybe they maybe they weren't as good as we were So I just want to say that we're we're really trying to take seriously the fact that people want to have input in these Decisions and they want to have input in these conversations and this is by no means a done deal Well, we'll stay tuned. We'll be announcing when we're talking about it again And we welcome you all back to because talk more about it And mine It does the majority rule We're gonna we're gonna move on right now because I think we're going over the same thing Um, is any other comments that we haven't heard already? John hendy again, um So I guess Maybe I can Ask one of these questions towards you. Have you come up with an idea of what the budget If you could address us over here, thanks. Thank you. Does chief know what the cost might be if it was given to him as The project to handle right now the goal is that it's the same as we proposed but we haven't gotten that far yet okay um So I heard a couple comments. Let me let me revise that We're I mean we're going to try to make this Lower if we can but we haven't gotten that far yet in terms I just want to rephrase that if we can make it less expensive. We'd like to make it less expensive. Okay um, I heard a few comments tonight About saying since like a section eight tenant, uh that this necessarily might not affect them but I want to remind you that a lot of section eight tenants are already paying the maximum Or the state's paying the maximum amount of rent that they'll pay for that particular unit Meaning that the tenants paying the maximum amount That they can pay now if this does go through and a landlord has to raise that cost That is going to cause that tenant to have to pay that difference because the state will not cover it They're already paying that maximum amount that they will pay there's that um, I also heard another comment about Landowners having power and control I think most landlords you talk to probably say it feels like it's the other way around um for instance, uh, the retaliation thing was there Retaliations one of the things so if there's a complaint made to a Agency health department, whatever it is. There's already laws written where if that landlord takes action against that tenant within six months That's a retaliation that tenant can then sue the landlord and pretty easily win so there's There's as much power for the landlord as you you might think there is um Chris for instance a company Sharon Kelly and bob stone for one of my properties after a tenant Made a complaint about us when we put some storage containers in what he thought was his backyard um I understood why Sharon Kelly was there. I understood why bob stone was there now. I understand what chris is there um But I think chris can attest to the fact that that didn't take very long from the time that tenant made that complaint To the time bob stone and Sharon was at my property Wasn't very long. Was it chris? Maybe a week So there's already there's already things in place for tenants that uh feel they have grievance um Now some of the other things I brought up in the previous meeting that I don't think ever got addressed So say this does go through whether it's chris that's implementing you guys whatever it is You're going to come into situations Where tenants have created their own problems They've created situations that are unhealthy on sanitary. They've taken down their own smoke detectors. Whatever it may be Who is going to be held responsible? landlord For the tenant That's a question I have I need an answer Who's responsible now under the state inspection program? That's a great that that's a great question. So If a unit is inspected and I ran into this once before Sharon Kelly I had a hoarder And she froze her pipes because she couldn't even get to her windows didn't realize they're open that much all day I couldn't get to those pipes because there's so much stuff in the way I call Sharon Sharon. What do I do trying to be proactive as a landlord? What can I do to bring me this situation? You know what her answer was to me? I Can find you until you get it fixed There's nothing I can do for her nothing I can do about her So again, where where is the protection for the landlord in this when it's the tenant that's created the situation I think what we're talking about here and That is on my list of questions Um, I think what we're talking about here are more health and safety code violations and not That's a health and safety code violation right there if a tenant creates a hoarding situation where I think they can't get to their windows They can't even Get in the room sometimes Yeah, I don't know how to answer that question I'm not sure that that necessarily applies to whether we or not. We you know, we implement a rental registry and inspection service But well, I think that's an incredibly unfortunate part of being a landlord It is it's an incredibly unfortunate part of being a landlord because you know what the remedy is Guess what I had to do the victim exactly I had to throw that tenant out And that's what you're gonna have That's exactly what this is going to create. I want to remind you It's