The following is a presentation of TFNN. Trade what you see with Larry Pezzavento. Call now toll free at 1-877-927-6648 or internationally at<PHONE_NUMBER>. Now Larry Pezzavento. Okay, looking good, Billy Ray feeling good, Lewis. We're going to start the show today with the weekly chart of Apple that basically shows the 382 retracement that we had back on them just a few days ago. Well, it was actually seven days ago. On the 20th of May, we exploded to the upside. Apple actually has moved more than 10% off the bottom. This is important folks, as we've talked to you many times over these past few weeks, especially since May 20th, when we had all of these APCD patterns that we've seen unfold.  We saw them in just about everything, the banking stocks, Apple, Google, Amazon, Tesla. I mean, and just one, JP Morgan, just one after another, Goldman Sachs, all of them made major APCDs there folks. That signifies a major, major cycle. We exploded 10% off the bottom folks, a 10% move in the Dow Jones Industrial Average folks. Are you kidding me? That's a big move. You know, if you do 10% in a week, you're going to do 500% in a year. You know, that's going to be almost like the crypto currency boys. Hold on, oh, don't tell me, don't give me this stuff without a memory. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Oh, God help me now. You know what?  All right, let's get back to some of these things here. I'm going to give you my best two cents of what I think is happening folks. That's really what I can do here. Let's get this one up here to take a look at it. This is the Dow Jones E-mini. The S&P looks pretty much the same.  There it is. This is starting on Sunday night. Remember, we were up strong on Sunday night. We were up about 300 Dow points. Now that was a pretty big move. And as you can see, what our program was was to look for three, eight, two retracements if that was going to be a significant high. And as you can see, we had two of them since Sunday. So in the last couple of days in the overnight markets we've had two of them. You can see them there. The same things in the S&P, they were doing the same thing. And of course we had the nice move down. My personal opinion is the low that we made on the 20th of May is going to be, that is going to be the key thing to look at for the year. In 19, in 2007, when I first started doing these radio shows, it was August the 15th and we made a major bottom. And the market went from August 15th up into October 4th, five weeks. And from October into October of that year that started the big move down which was the move down into the May, March of 2009. So I would like for you to just circle that day of May 20th because if we go below there, that's going to be the equivalent of us breaking the August 15th stock. That was just a major cycle bottom folks. That's what it happens to be. So if it breaks that, that tells you that there's trouble in River City. And this market was so oversold coming into this low year on the 20th, but with all of those ABCD patterns that were there, I said, oh my goodness, I hadn't seen this and this many of them and so many. What does it mean that I'm out of memory? Get out of here. I can't be out of memory. It's a brand new computer for guys' sake. All right, let's get back. I want to give you some information here from our good friend, J.C. Parrots of All-Star Charts. Let's get this up here to take a look at it. This is the picture of Bitcoin. And I wanted you to point out here, this was the first time since Bitcoin has been trading that it had been down nine weeks in a row. Since 2012, when we first started getting, the players were in there for the past 10 years, but we were down nine weeks in a row and now you can see what's happened. We went from 28,000 to 32,000 in three trading days. That's another huge move. All it's doing is correcting a very, very oversold condition. That's all that's doing. But when you see those numbers, you have to sort of respect them because we live in the times of, what's happening, folks? Every time I touch my computer, it says out of memory and that can't happen because it's a brand new computer and I don't know. So I don't know. I guess I get ready to toss it into the old mailbox. We're gonna take a look here now at the FTSE folks in the land of Boris Johnson. As you can see here, we have this big ABCD double triple top. This is a weekly, as you can see here, we've been up here for quite a while. It didn't back off very much. You can see the little pullback that we had, but it didn't do very much and hasn't gone very much to the upside either. So now let's take a look at the German DAX. I'm gonna have to reboot this puppy. I'm afraid that this is not good. What I'm seeing here, boy, oh, boy. All right, here's the German DAX. We'll get up here. We've got some pretty colors on this one right here. Hold on a second. By the way, folks, if you have any questions,<PHONE_NUMBER>. Now you're gonna take a look at the German DAX and as you can see here, we are definitely making a garly top in here. You can see the green color triangles are a three drive to a bottom pattern. You know, multiple ABCDs. You can see the yellow one, which is a butterfly top coming in at the 78% level. So that's the time that we're looking at it. Now, something very, very significant happened here Sunday night, folks, that not many people are paying too much attention to. And here we are paying attention to it. Let me show it to you right here. You've probably heard it already today, but by the time this was happening, you know, this was really a pretty, this is an amazing market. This is a bond market, folks. That's our second largest market afternoats. But look at this, folks, we gap down a full point in bonds. Go find a one point drop in bonds on a gap. That was Sunday night, but there was a big drop and of course they've continued to go down. They've broken below 139 already into the 138 level. So this tells us that ABCD pattern at that 382 coming off the high of back in early March, excuse me, late March on the 28th of March, which was the eclipse, that tells us that that is a major point. And we're probably looking at a lot more to the downside, you know, in the market for Treasury bonds, but that's what we're watching here today. Now, let me get another one up here. I put the Apple chart up that we wanted to see. And, oh, I wanted to show you one that we've really had on our watch list here and it's turned out to be a really good one. This is the chart of the, I'll bring some more charts up on this one because I've got them on file. And, well, I just don't understand what it means out of memory, because I think when we come up to the break, I'm going to, okay, I'm going to reboot. You'll notice here that we have, this is a 15 minute chart here. And basically I wanted to show you the fact that we went right up to this level right here at 1945. That was the number. Now, folks, this, I've been watching this all night because I've been short all night. And it's broken, believe it or not, it's broken a dollar a barrel three times. And now it's broken a dollar and a half a barrel. So there's been a $4,500 swing in crude all day, even though it's up considerably. The reason why we're going to take a break here.<PHONE_NUMBER>, we'll be right back. In a time of booming inflation, where you're purchasing powers eroded, there's no better place to protect your hard earned money than ain't gold. VISTA Gold's flagship asset is the Monk Todd Gold Project in the Northern Territory of Australia. This is Australia's largest undeveloped gold project. We are talking a world-class gold project in a tier one mining district. 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Hold on one second here, I wanna bring up the chart here of the crude oil folks, give me a, when I came back, my mouse needed a battery along with the memory thing has been fixed, evidently, that was just a non-starter. So here's the chart that we're looking at here today, coming, this was what I thought would be the trade of the day.  All of these numbers measured between 1-1945 and 1-2050. So we picked 1-1945 as a place to go short. Not only that folks, but it dropped $1,000 three times overnight. And then went back and went above it on hitting some stops and then just literally gave up the ghost really quick. So that's starting to move in the right direction. Also, those of you that belong to the 24-7 have asked several questions about the gold. We still think we're looking for the gold market to come down a little bit more. We'll take a look at the one that we had here. This was going back to Fridays because we watched these so closely. Now this happens to be the June gold. We're now trading August. And you'll see that we made a 3-8 true retracement up here, our short was put in up here and there's a retracement right here. We're looking to this to get down. If it makes the ABCD like we expect, it should get to about 19, let's try it again Larry, 1825. But you've got to add $10 to that. So 1835 in the August is what you'd be looking for for a potential to buy it. That's one of the things that we're watching very, very closely today. But we had several others that looked really interesting. Today, we'll get this up here. Let's get back to the stock market. I'll give you my two cents of what I think is happening here. Now remember, we have incredible swings now. This is not going to stop folks. We've had, we're down a hundred handles from where we're a little more than a hundred handles from where we were Sunday night. There's where we were Sunday night. We made the 3-8 true retracement of the whole move from January folks. We made that in seven days. You got to respect that.  I mean, that's a monster move. So what we're watching now is to see if we can find a pattern somewhere between now and the next three or four days where you might get a pullback and then you're gonna probably get one more run to the upside. Because when you get charts, like we've seen in all of those things that I mentioned plus a whole bunch that I didn't, with the ABCD patterns everywhere. But folks, hey, look, let's be realistic.  Unfortunately, I do more living than anything else. But anyway, those ABCDs don't let you down very much.  There's always gonna be a new bus coming down the road. But we made that 3-8 true retracement on Sunday night with the news that China had allowed bond sales or something like that and that their PMI was better or worse. I don't know what it was, but it was very, very bullish. Hong Kong opened up sharply and the Nikkei opened up sharply and China opened up sharply and that just kept pulling us up because we were still moving strong from Friday. But that's where we went. We went right up to the 3-8 true retracement. Now, we almost made the 50% in the Dow Jones, but that didn't do that. The NASDAQ didn't do very much at all. But we did have that, if you recall, those of you that belong to the letter and I think we talked about this on Friday, let's get this one up here so we can take a look at it because the Russell had made a beautiful Gartley sell signal here. Let's get this up here. And that was a perfect ABCD. And of course, it sold off quite a bit today. And we'll take a look at this right here. There we go. You can see the ABCD that we made. And look out, you're so far away from the 3-8 too on this, it's not even mean anything. Folks, I've been doing this a long time. I study these charts probably as much as anybody on this planet. I'm almost 100% sure of that. But when we go below these lows, we may on May 20th, it's time to rethink what you're gonna be doing with your money for a while because they're gonna take this thing to the cleaners. They really are. They're gonna hit it really badly whenever that happens. It might be today, tomorrow, three weeks, four weeks. I'm hoping it's three or four weeks because that would give us a beautiful cell pattern, maybe a little bit higher. Some really nice things that we like to see like garly patterns or one, three, five pattern. But that's it. But if you're doing short term, like I am with the 15 minute, and I showed you what we were looking at with the Dow Jones from Sunday night, those are beautiful 3-8 too retracements, folks. They were right on the money. And the other one, the big news about the giant shortage in wheat. Come on, folks, wheat's down 50 cents. Are you kidding me? I mean, something's not right.  So trade what you see, not what you think because it doesn't look too bullish in the wheat market. Maybe this will change by the end of the day, but that's not what we think is going to happen. Now, here was another one that we'd set up. This was a really nice one. It's been working pretty good. This happens to be the Euro. The Euro is really going to be really neat to see this, but you'll notice here that 3-8-2 was right there, folks. We hit that exact number last night. Well, actually, let's see, Sunday Monday. It'd be Monday, yeah, Monday. We hit it there Monday exactly to the tick at the exact 3-8-2, and it's broken 100 pips so far. So that one's hanging in there relatively well too. So those are just a couple that we're paying attention to.<PHONE_NUMBER>, if you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them for you. Otherwise, we'll continue to look at some of these other ABCD patterns that we've been watching. And here was one that we thought was going to be very powerful. I haven't updated it as of yet. It goes in the same theme of the crude oil market because we were thinking these were making some type of a topping pattern and that you can see you have the left shoulder, the head, and the right shoulder, they're actually equal. So we're expecting the market to be up a little bit, which we were. I haven't updated it this morning because I do crude oil, I don't do heating oil. And so that's what we were watching here for to see this a little bit higher. Coming in Sunday night or Monday or Tuesday, I really haven't checked it. What I will do when the break comes, oh dear, I will check it. And we will get that moving here. Forgot to get my water for the desk here today. So I'll get that when we come up with the next break. So if you do have any questions, Al said, don't even bother right now. He said it's just, he said the lights on the boards are lit up like you can't believe. He says it's Christmas day there in St. Petersburg, Florida today. Oh, Al said one line just opened up. And oh, no, he said somebody picked it up but the line was busy. So we'll try it again. Okay, now let's take a look here. I wanted to show you the NASDAQ because this is another one of these. All of these ABCD folks, I mean, this means something. When all of these things do the same thing, that's telling you something big time. And that's what we're looking at here. We'll be right back.<PHONE_NUMBER>. If you want to take advantage of this sector now is the time to subscribe to my Gold Report. The Gold Report is a comprehensive look at the metal sector as well as the markets that move gold, which is the currency and bond markets. New subscribers get a 30-day money back guarantee so you have nothing to lose. Every Monday morning, I publish the Gold Report with coverage of gold, silver, bonds, the XAU, HUI, GDX, as well as more than 30 different mining equities. To see for yourself the types of profitable trades that are recommended within the Gold Report, sign up now by visiting tfnn.com. Don't miss out on the next great gold trade. Sign up today. TfNN has just launched their new trading room, the Tiger's Den, hosted at Discord. TfNN has been educating traders for more than 20 years with live programming hosted by a variety of professional traders during market hours. And now they are expanding their reach with the Tiger's Den, available to all tigers and tigerses for just $1 for the year. There's no catch or added costs when you join our community of traders. In the Tiger's Den, you can look over the shoulders of Tom O'Brien and the other TfNN hosts. While they analyze charts during their live Tiger TV programs and join an interactive trading community with hundreds of members exchanging ideas, interact with other tigers and tigerses as they share trading ideas, news analysis, and discuss the market action all trading day, even at night and on the weekends. The Tiger's Den at Discord is accessible on mobile or tablets as well. So it's always at your reach. To sign up today and become a part of this educational community of traders, just visit the front page of TfNN.com. Tom O'Brien has just announced a live Timing the Trade webinar Friday, June 10th from 9 a.m. until 2 p.m. Eastern time. Join Tom O'Brien for five hours of live education as he teaches you his trading methodology right from his best-selling book, The Art of Timing the Trade, Your Ultimate Trading Mastery System. In this live webinar, Tom O'Brien will be teaching you his entire trading system, including quality volume, ABC structures, Fibonacci Confluence Zones, cause and effect, swing points, and more. We will be limiting this class to 40 attendees, so please do not delay and reserve your seat today for this special live event with Tom O'Brien. All attendees will also receive a physical copy of his book, The Art of Timing the Trade, an $88 value, mail to you, along with the free month of his daily newsletter, Market Insights, a $169 value.  This segment is brought to you by Think or Swim. For more information, just click the Think or Swim banner on the front page of tfnn.com. Okay, folks, I get the picture of Tom's book here. I keep it on my desk here, Timing the Trade, and I think you'll enjoy his one-day seminar that he's gonna be giving when you get a master like him up there. I don't know why the book doesn't show very well. I don't know, well, you know why? It's because I'm using the background from the thing, I don't, from the service. So I don't know, I do one thing after another, okay. All right, let's talk here just a little bit about the U.S. Dollar Index. I posted that up. Yeah, I know it's the virtual background that screwed up, but I do keep that on my desk. It's one of the few books. Well, I got about 12 books up here. The Experts Speak Technical Analysis of Markets by Murphy, Private Thoughts of a Trader by Me, Geometry of Markets, Super Traders Almanac, Profits in the Stock Market by Hearst. Oh my goodness, I got a whole bunch of them in here. That I do, Artificial Intelligence. Wow, there's about, well, I got those, those are all leather-bound. And then I also have the book by Andrew Lowe is also up here, The Evolution of Technical Analysis in Stock Market, and also Chaotic Markets, or Don Random Walkdown Wall Street. And then I have, of course, the Bible is the Burton Malkiel's book on fractals. Anyway, that's what we're paying attention to here this morning. So let's, I hope, I hope I can see it. Can you, well, we'll just move on to the next one here. I just wanted to show you that this is the Dollar Index because we were looking at the, remember the Dollar Index is the reverse of the Euro when the dollar goes up, the Euro goes down. And as you can see here, the 382 retracement here, we were expecting it to hit, it hit on Sunday night, actually hit it twice, Sunday and Monday, right at the 382, didn't go any below it. And then, of course, it's had a very strong rally over the past several hours. We've broken up more than 100 points in the Euro. So that's holding up relatively well also. But we're going to see some great, great volatility in here, folks. I don't think there's any question about it. So that's neither. I had a question about silver. I'm very bullish long-term silver and gold, folks. And I, you know, you cannot be bullish, not be bullish these, and the reason why is we've got inflation is going to be here to stay. You know, if we're going to have green energy instead of fossil fuels, believe me, somebody's going to have to be paying the bill for this. What the question is, are we going to be able to break another dollar to get down to this level? This would be, if we could get this to silver and gold to get down about a buck, about a buck lower in silver and about $100 in gold down around 17, 17, 17, 50, something like that in the August gold. Boy, I thought that. I thought that would be such a beautiful ABCD pattern that we have to really, you know, really take advantage of that. So those are just a few things that I'm watching. Regarding the notes and bonds, folks, I mean, give me a break. These things are so bearish. Take a look here at the Treasury bond market. I've already showed you the big gap down that it had, but here's where we were Sunday before the market's open. You can see we were trading up in here. We gapped way down here. We've been down more than two full points in bonds. And do you realize how hard it is to get bonds down two points? That takes a lot of selling. So, you know, we're not out of the woods, but there's going to be incredible volatility here that we've already seen. So let's, you know, follow what trade what you see, not what you think. And I love David White's motto is sell when you want to and not when you have to. And that's a major thing to be looking at. But we do have higher interest rates are coming, how they affect the market for other things like real estate and stuff. I don't know. I had a guy show up here Sunday because we have a beautiful American flag over the house here and he commented about the flag. And he said, I'd like to buy your house. I said, it's not for sale. And he said, I'll pay, you know, X number of dollars, which was more than I thought. So I said, nope, still not for sale. Anyway, it's crazy what's going on in these different parts of the world for sure. Hong Kong is still the most expensive city in the world. A little one car garage, I mean a garage, nothing else. Like if you have a really nice car and you want to put your car in a garage, it's $50,000 to buy that garage. And that's a pretty steep. And if you want to rent it, I think it's $1,500 a month if you want to rent it just to park your car. Hello operator, give me a break. That's a pretty steep thing to hit. But okay, let's move on here to cover a few other things that I've already covered. Oh, I wanted to do this one on the footsie because this is a four hour chart. And those of you that like ABCDs and this is already starting to work as you can imagine, you'll be able to see it right here. There's a beautiful ABCD just perfectly measured. Look at them on the way down folks. ABCD, ABCD, made a lot of friends over in the UK this time because they started to see ABCD patterns and they say, well, when will it stop? Well, I can tell you this folks, I started looking at these a long time ago and by golly, they don't ever stop.  This is what Mandelbrot taught folks. Mandelbrot said it's a lightning bolt. That's your seed pattern. The seed pattern is a lightning bolt or the ABCD pattern. If you want to call it like Gartley called it. But anyway, you can call it a 135 like the Elliott people call it, whatever you want to call it. It's there everywhere on all different time frames. All you've got to do is to figure out which one you want to trade and what your risk is going to be. Now I'm going to post something in the room at the next break that our good friend, Mr. Z from Switzerland, no, not Switzerland, Philadelphia sent us about Paul Tudor Jones. I was fortunate enough to meet him when he was just a young whippersnapper getting started down there in Memphis, Tennessee. My best friend as many of you know was Jay Cross who worked at commodity corporation those years. And he was a good old Memphis boy who went to University of Mississippi and it was roomed with Trent Lott of the speaker of the house and he went on to USC to get a master's degree in computer science in 1964 and went to work in commodity corporation in 1965 and was there with them until 1972 when he went out on his own to be trading. But that's some of the things that we have talked about in the past I don't want to bring it up again but these markets they don't change folks. I've looked at any historical stuff I have looked at. I'm looking at bubbles and stuff like that and hey I'm wrong a lot, gee whiz. I mean you stop and think how many times I've been wrong you won't have enough time to talk about anything else on the show. But there's times when you get things right and that's what you're looking for is to stick the things that you get through right. Now the reason why I'm gonna be posting this thing for Mr. Z it's about Paul Tudor Jones and it's all about risk. My favorite Paul Tudor Jones story and anyway he was interviewed by the Wall Street Journal in 1987 right after the crash and the thing was they were talking to him he said how does it feel to be Paul Tudor Jones that picked the absolute bottom in the bond market before it rallied 20 points and Paul Tudor Jones said to the reporter he said well he said that's only partly right. It should read how accurate it must be to be Paul Tudor Jones to be able to pick the exact bottom in the treasury bond market before they rallied 20 points after being wrong the previous six times and it was a true story. He tried it six times before he finally got it right but his losses were so small when the profits came they just multiplied and multiplied and multiplied. There's gonna be a link coming in here. I hope I have it. I had it a little while ago but you know me. Hey we're gonna take a break. Eight seven seven nine two seven six six four eight. Are you in the market for buying or selling real estate in the Bay Area including the surrounding St. Petersburg Tampa and Clearwater markets Tiger Real Estate LLC is a firm that has extensive experience in the Tampa Bay Area. Whether you're looking to sell your current property for maximum value or you're in the market for a second home or investment property Tiger Realty has the experience across all areas of real estate in the Tampa Bay Area to help buyers and sellers make the most informed decisions across all price levels. From the price you should be paying per square foot in certain up and coming areas to the type of cash flow investment properties are capable of creating Tiger Real Estate can help you make the best decision when it comes to all areas of the market. Before you make one of the biggest decisions of your financial future call Tiger Real Estate LLC today at<PHONE_NUMBER> or email us at Tiger at TFNN.com. That's<PHONE_NUMBER>. Call us today. The technology around us is changing every day. With so much happening it can seem impossible to keep up with all the information. David White's investment newsletter, the Technology Insider is designed to give you all the information you need to understand the technology that shapes today's markets and tomorrow's future. David White has made his living staying on the cutting edge of technology. His weekly newsletter will give you specific recommendations for value tech stocks as well as entry prices, target prices, and stops to set for each trade. Dave delivers his weekly newsletters every Friday with updates throughout the week. You can get the Technology Insider at TFNN.com for only $37.50. Sign up for Dave's newsletter, the Technology Insider, and get an inside look at everything the technology sector has to offer. Try it risk-free today with our 30-day money-back guarantee. TFNN, educating investors. Are China A shares hot or not? If you trade China A shares now may be time to take a closer look. Trade C-H-A-U or C-H-A-D. Directions daily, CSI 300, China A share, bull and bear ETFs. China A shares in either direction. Visit directioninvestments.com today. An investor should consider the investment objectives, risks, charges, and expenses of the direction shares carefully before investing. The prospectus and summary prospectus contain this and other information about direction shares. To obtain a prospectus or summary prospectus, please contact direction shares<PHONE_NUMBER>. The prospectus or summary prospectus should be read carefully before investing. An investment in the funds is subject to risk including the possible loss of principal. The funds are designed to be utilized only by sophisticated investors such as traders and active investors. Distributor, foresight fund services, LLC. This program is brought to you by Vista Gold. Traded on the NYSE American and TSX under the symbol VGZ. I've got the computer fixed now, Billy. Thank you for asking, though I appreciate it. Folks, we got a sell-off going here in the grain markets and we've been waiting for this sell-off and I think we want to be ready to be a buyer here pretty soon. It'll probably be this week would be my guess. Let's get this one up here. I want to bring it to your attention right now. This is the one, this is Christmas corn. This is December corn. It is, I haven't issued a buy or anything. I'm just getting ready for it. I've reason why I mentioned it while we were off the break. My alert went off in for July corn but I want to be buying the December corn. You notice we've been in this really tight trading range here now for several weeks and so we need to clean out all these guys that bought it there, scared that the Burjeebies out of them and then we want to be looked to be a buyer. This is one of the strongest seasonals, folks, that you can get for soybeans and corn to be making a low here around this time March 31st. I've told this story before, 1983, I had an order in and there was a report that day and by golly the market went through my order by three and a half cents and I didn't get filled. I thought I was automatically filled but remember back in those days they had these trading cards that I've shown you many times before and you had to turn those in. Well now everything is electronic. I mean it goes through, it's automatic but you know, we didn't have that back in the old days. So by the time I figured out that I didn't have a position, it was already limit up and so I had to chase it. Which good that I chased it because it made quite a few bucks but by golly that's neither here nor there. You don't like to see that but we're seeing it in a lot of different things and one of the ones that's in the news all the time is the wheat market because of the supposedly they have all this wheat that is staying there and I forget what they call the place Odessa and let's get this up here because we're breaking down now really good and this is what we wanna see. We wanna see get prices lower and we're right over a lunar cycle here too with the new moon I believe is coming in right now and you'll notice that we wanna get it down just a little bit lower down by that 0.5 there and we're down 50 cents today folks. I mean we were trading at 11.57 I think we had 11.01 a little while ago. So I don't know exactly where that low was but it was quite a bit lower than where it is right now but that's neither here to this see where we are trading here. Yeah we're at 10.95 believe it or not shut the front door and raise her in. My goodness that's a beauty and look at the old crude old making new lows that's good. Okay now let's get on to the next one here that I wanna talk about also is the soybeans because this is the one this is November soybeans. It's been acting the most bullish. This is new crop soybeans now. You can see they were still strong on Friday. They're giving up a little bit of the ghost today we were thinking we could possibly get up here for another but we're starting to back off this will probably be a double top but we gotta watch for a bottom here the next few days. That's the that to me that's gonna be very important. I'll be doing a special videos for our 24 seven folks over the weekend or next next day or two to get ready for it. So we'll be watching that very closely. Someone asked what positions do we have on right now? We are short the S&P or the Dow whichever you wanted to do at the 382 numbers that we talked about earlier. We wanted the short to Euro which was right on the 382 that's working shorting crude oil at 1945 and that's working and the bonds being short that's working and the gold being short 1865 in the gold but that was in the June gold and we're rolling that over into August. So those are the ones that we're watching here today but with our Ion buys here we wanna see this stuff they're really hitting the wheat really hard and when you stop and think it was trading at $13 just a few just about six or seven days ago the end of the world was coming and wow they found the end of the world at the end of town so it didn't happen the way you think it that's why you trade what you see not what you think that's the main thing that you wanna be doing that's very, very important. Now the reason why I'm bringing all this up is because of the limit binder that just went off I wanna get this up here show you this is my July corn now July corn is the corn that's been you know it's in the bin they're waiting to resell that the other stuff is being it's in the field now growing so what we've done now is we've taken out this low right here you see we had this little tiny rally yep you wanna guess what it was you betcha three, eight, two of that high right there and now we've kicked that out so it means we're gonna be getting down into this level about another 25 or 30 cents so that's what we're doing these patterns are good for predicting what the market should do and when it doesn't get the heck out of the way you don't need to it's not worth it so I hope these are things that you can use in your trading but I think these grains are gonna be in a buying zone here pretty soon and I think it'll be pretty exciting and okay let's move on here to another one that I wanted to talk about I talked about the heating oil here we go is the copper copper has held up incredibly well given all this stuff folks I know it's down a bit today but you'll see here this is what we've had here in copper we had the three, eight, two retracement that came in right here and then we had a nice little ABCD up here I thought we were gonna get up to this level but the trading gods didn't oblige and so we're starting to move lower this was indeed a 135 pattern we talked about that on this show before that is a 135 pattern but once we get below that oh then you're looking at a larger ABCD that's gonna take us down a whole lot or lower is the number that I'm trying to think of all right the other one that's interesting folks is the price of cattle I don't know about you folks but the price of beef here in Tucson has really taken a turn to the downside I bought two prime rib eyes my buddy Nicky who lives here in town he's a professional gambler and I had him over for dinner on Sunday and we had a couple of prime steaks and I couldn't believe I went to the butcher and I was expecting to pay about 25 bucks a piece and he said I'll give you two for 25 and I said why he says I can't sell what I got and I says what do you mean? He said people won't pay the prices and so well and end up getting a great steak for 12 bucks you go to that restaurant that's gonna cost you 65 or 70 of course they're gonna prepare it for you so that's neither here nor there okay all right let's move on here someone ask another question about sugar all right let's get this up here this sugar has been in a pretty good market here been in a big trading range here in sugar for a very very long time and we're at a pretty high level we should hold these levels that we're at right now because that was a 382 retracement anything below that low right here would really tell us that uh-oh this thing is probably getting ready you know to go south instead of north now that is not a head and shoulders pattern here folks you see this pattern left shoulder, head, right shoulder two things a the right shoulder you see this right shoulder higher than the left shoulder that automatically negates a head and shoulders pattern using the formula in Andrew Lowe's book the non-random walk down wall street they has to be lower than the right sure equal or lower than the left shoulder and the distance between the head and the shoulder should be relatively equal this fits the quality part but it's not a head and shoulders pattern you have to call it ah we'll call it the one bat three anyway let's take a break eight seven seven nine two seven six six four eight sharpening your skills as an investor is like getting better at playing a musical instrument you have to practice sure but you also need excellent instruction from experts at TFNN you'll get advice and guidance from the authority and technical market analysis and it's not just dry tedious text either TFNN airs live financial content streamed live on TFNN.com and TFNN's YouTube channel with Tiger TV live every market day from 8 30 a.m. to 4 p.m. Eastern for free each host is an experienced trader and gives their take on the market while taking calls and questions live from around the 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stock prices get the opening call newsletter by Basil Chapman in your inbox every day first time subscribers also get a 30-day money back guarantee if you're not satisfied let us know and you'll get a full refund within 30 days of signing up TFNN.com Educating Investors Everything in the universe is governed by the Fibonacci sequence this mathematical principle is responsible for everything from the most aesthetically pleasing artwork to patterns in the stock market to stay on top of stock patterns you can take advantage of sign up for the Fibonacci 24-7 newsletter at TFNN.com When you subscribe you'll get a weekly report from veteran day trader Larry Pesavento on stocks you need to pay attention to and you can trust Larry's analysis after all he's got 45 years experience as a day trader Larry will also provide daily charts, videos and data on the key markets that he's tracking expect notifications from Larry on market movement you need to act on at any time first time subscribers also get a 30-day money back guarantee if you're not satisfied let us know and you'll get a full refund within 30 days of signing up subscribe to the Fibonacci 24-7 newsletter today TFNN.com Educating Investors Okay folks I've been asked to talk about this pattern that we were looking at comparing 1987 to this year basically there was the high October of 87 17 days later you came down into that this was the aspect we were looking at that came in on May the 5th you had 17 days of that it took you to the 22nd the market bottomed that Friday on the 20th of course and then we've had this really strong rally there was no crash but the market did go down considerably making an ABCD pattern now the question the person asked when will I see another sequence of events well I'm always searching for these folks that's why I have folks like Shane Smollin Tim Boss and Norm Winsky on the collar here to give us some ideas and when these dates come up so I'm watching when these come up and then I try to search for memory banks say well was the last time this happened well with Alfie LaVoy software you can test these things and that's what Shane Smollin does so well he does back testing on these to see which ones you know give an idea of whether these things are going to work or not but again you get down to these patterns you're there for one reason only and that's for risk control try to listen to that thing that I sent you the on Paul Tudor Jones folks it's all about risk he's got a you can see them says losers average losses and boy you can't do that remember his main thing is is try not to lose just like Warren Buffett two major rules don't lose money there's rule number one rule number two is don't break rule number one well you've got to trade so you've got to control your risk which is the only thing you can control you don't know what's going to happen next even when you think you do and you know that's when you're the most dangerous is when you think about something that may or may not be true yet you believe it you know and so you got to be able to change courses in the middle of the stream if that's if that's the case so let's remind ourselves now tomorrow I'll be back and no guest this week I might have one popping up but I haven't heard back from him yet so we'll give you some other information about the foreign exchange markets and hopefully I'll get some of these things done about the grain markets by the end of this week and maybe we can have some ideas live every day in an attitude of gratitude and may God bless


There everybody I see that it's just just past 1210 and I'm really excited to get started. So, I'm just going to launch launch the seminar now. So, welcome to the fifth lecture in this year's Dalhousie health law Institute health law and policy seminar series. I'm not online today, but Dalhousie is an I am in McMaggie, the ancient and unceded territory of the magma. We pay respect to the indigenous knowledges held by magma people, and the wisdom of their elders past and present. We pay respect to to the histories, contributions and legacies of African Nova Scotians who've been in this territory for 400 years. I'm the chair of the health law Institute Sheila Wildman. I'm also co chair of an organization called East Coast Prison Justice Society. And I wouldn't typically add that to these introductions but the work of today's guest for broad work over many years surfaces hidden connections between disability and prison justice. Institutionalization and prison abolition, and exposes to the ways that ableism works alongside racism, poverty and other bases of oppression to construct and reinforce systems of institutionalization and incarceration. Our much anticipated speaker today is of course internationally renowned scholar, liit. Professor Ben Moshe. Professor Ben Moshe holds a PhD in sociology from Syracuse University with concentrations in women and gender studies and disability studies. She joins us from the University of Illinois at Chicago, where she is assistant professor of criminology law and justice. She is the author of the 2020 book, The Carcerating Disability, subtitled the institutionalization and prison abolition. I have that book right here but you can also see the wild sort of background behind Leah. She's also co editor of the groundbreaking 2014 collection, disability incarcerated imprisonment and disability in the United States and Canada. And if you do not have those two books, I strongly recommend to you to go out and get them. Do it online while you're listening. We are very lucky to have Professor Ben Moshe with us at a time when advocates and government in Nova Scotia are asking in the context of live human rights litigation, what it might mean to remedy ongoing systemic discrimination against persons with disabilities. Who for decades instead of supports for social inclusion have been subjected to the unacceptable alternatives of institutionalization or social abandonment. Getting that remedy right requires that we be alive to the work of critical intersectional disability scholars like Professor Ben Moshe. With that, Leah, I turn it over to you. One last thing, if along the way, you folks online have questions, things you want to share, there's a button called Q&A at the bottom, and you can type in your question there and we will be fielding those questions at the end of Leah's remarks. Thanks so much. Over to you. Thank you so much. Sheila and thanks for everybody for who invited me. Sheila and Ashley and everybody who is a part of the seminar series. And also thanks for everyone who's doing this kind of work that I'm going to talk about today. I am Liat, and I'm in Chicago, and I put in the chat but Chicago is on the traditional territories of the three fire people, the Ojibwe, Ottawa, and Potawatomi. For people who are on their phone or going to see the recording and for whom it's helpful. A bit of an image description. I'm semi-mil-aged gray hair, very short hair, white femme person wearing makeup and glasses, and you can't really see it, I don't think, but I'm a wheelchair user. I'm wearing an added sweater, and behind me is the background behind me is the image of my book, which is concentric circles that are kind of erupting on the side, which is an abstract image that I think represents some of the things we're going to talk about today. So I'm going to share my screen in just a second to set up. I'm going to talk about today. The main topic is de-institutionalization. I'll describe what it is, some of the factors that led to it, what we can learn from it, and particularly I'm going to focus today on de-institutionalization in the US. I'm going to focus the kind of second part of my talk on particularly litigation efforts, as was mentioned earlier that I hope will connect to some litigation efforts that are happening right now in Nova Scotia. And then I'll end with some pitfalls of this tactic of litigation or class action lawsuits. First, I wanted to mention on the slide, it's an image of my first book, which was an anthology with Chris Chapman and Allison Carey called Disability Incarcerated. And in that book and in all the work that some of us are doing that tries to connect disability to cursorality, what we try to do is to broaden what gets to be defined as incarceration. And in our case today also decarceration, because incarceration happens not just in spaces that we call prison or jails, but it's something that also happens in nursing homes, institutions for people with intellectual developmental disabilities or psychiatric disabilities, nursing homes and so on. So one of the things that's important to understand is that there's several conduits leading to confinement. One of them is of course criminalization and the other one is medicalization. And they both entail surveillance and policing. And this is really important because it helps understand that mental health and disability justice organizing and scholarship are also carceral issues. On the slide is the image of the book I'm going to talk about today, which is called the carcerating disability, the institutionalization and prison abolition. It's really important before I start talking to about this more in depth to understand that when I say that institutionalization in disability institutions for people with intellectual disabilities and psychiatric confinement is carceral or incarceration. I don't mean to say that it's the same as prison. But I do mean that they are literally both carceral. I don't mean that metaphorically. I mean that very, very literally. They are both carceral but this does not mean that they are the same thing. What I'm trying to do through the book through connecting prison abolition and, you know, prison rights litigation, anti-prison activism, critical prison studies, and de-institutionalization, anti-psychiatry, disability studies, disability justice. But trying to connect those things, it's not about to say that they are the same. But it's about saying that we need to understand the connection between various sites of incarceration, not through analogies, not through these kind of oppression Olympics, but to understand that they are connected. And also, if the network of incarceration is connected, then the means for liberation must connect as well. And this is what led me to connect de-institutionalization and disability justice and disability studies, mad studies to prison abolition. And this is because, you know, those of us who are kind of need deep, I should say, into prison abolition probably know this that whenever we kind of talk about this or mention it, one of the things that people often say is, well, you know, critiques of prisons, yes, we totally get it, but surely you don't mean right now. Surely you don't mean in the US and Canada, right? Like you mean in smaller places, like in the Navian countries or something like that. And surely you don't mean in the kind of conditions that we have right now. But one of the things that's really important to understand, and this is what I try to do overall with the book, is that abolition of carceral sites has already happened, both in the US and in Canada. And it has happened in our lifetime. So this is not just a vision for the future. It's not something that just happens in Scandinavian countries. This is something that is happening, has happened both in the US and in Canada. But it has happened not in the prison arena. It has happened in a different carceral arena, in the arena of institutions for people with disabilities. So that's why the institutionalization in mental health and intellectual and developmental disabilities is really important as a precedent. It's something that has already happened. It's a precursor to understanding prison abolition. We can learn a lot from the lessons of the institutionalization. And also, you know, today I'm going to talk about it based on its own merits for people who are trying to push against the confinement of people with disabilities in institutions and close them down. So what I'm trying to do in the book, and more generally, why it's really important, and you know, it's really important for me to say, because some people might find the book kind of, you know, denset parts and so on, and it's also very long. And the reason why is because I'm trying to develop an alternative genealogy to the institutionalization. And that's what I'm going to kind of talk about today. So often we understand the institutionalization as do I is, you know, something that is kind of a big major policy trend, policy change, both in the US and in Canada. I want to, I want to kind of signal I won't get too much into today, but I want to signal that there actually were two kinds of the institutionalization. So I tried to chart in the book the genealogy of both of each one, but there were really two one is in mental health so this is the closure of psychiatric hospitals, and the other one is in the field of intellectual developmental disabilities. It didn't happen in the same time and they didn't exactly happen because of the same reasons, but today I'm kind of going to conflate them both a little bit, but you can find much more specificity in the book and this is why it's also very long because it is very specific. And in general, at least in the US, the institutionalization of people in the mental health field really started to the population in psych hospital really started to decrease in the 19 towards the end of the 1950s. At the beginning of the 60s and so on, but in the field of intellectual disabilities, this was much later 1015 years later that we started to see this kind of large, either a closure or decrease in populations in institutions. So what is the institutionalization. Well, many people understand it as the transition of people with psychiatric and intellectual disabilities or others abilities from state institutions and hospitals into community living, which is really important. It also means the closure of these facilities these institutions these hospitals. But what I add to the definition of the institutionalization is that it's not just a process, but it's a process of kind of Exodus of from institutionalization to the institutionalization. It's a logic, the institutionalization is a logic, it's a framework, it's a movement and it's a logic that counters carceral objects, it's an anti carceral measure. And so I want to focus today particularly on the part of the initialization that was more abolitionary and the kind of tension between reform and abolition. But first I wanted to talk a little bit about how the initialization happened through that tension of reform versus abolition. There were many factors that led to the initialization in the US. One is certainly I should note at the beginning I'm going to do this very, very, very briefly. There's, again, much more details in the book for people who are interested and I'm also very happy to talk about any of this and much more detail in the Q&A. But very briefly in the US, several factors led to the institutionalization. I don't believe that any of these factors is the factor that led to the initialization I think it was all of them. But I also think that, again, there were factions of the initialization that were abolitionary and some that were not. But in general, there were federal programs and policies that just didn't exist. And so once they came into existence, they pushed for the institutionalization or community living for people with disabilities in ways that weren't possible before. So an example in the US is Medicare and Medicaid. Medicare and Medicaid, you know, people sometimes things they've always been here, but, you know, they really started in 1965, and that helped to decrease the reliance on long term institutionalization, particularly the psychiatric arena. But it also created this institutional bias in policy that still continues today. And we can talk about whether or not that exists in Canada as well. But in the US, the institutional bias is particularly, you know, there's Medicaid, what are called like home waivers. But this, because Medicaid is federal, and the way that it's being used is every state in the US can decide how to use kind of the Medicaid money. They don't have to use the waivers, but every state has a budget for institutionalization, basically. So there's institutional bias that actually comes as a legacy of these programming. And so there's a lot of disability advocacy around what is called legislation that's called money follows the person, basically that money would come to the people themselves, the people who have a disability, and then they can direct their care. Because right now the money goes to the institution. So there is this institutional bias, but I did want to mention that without those programs, we wouldn't have this process of the institution. The second thing, which I talk much more about in the book, but particularly in the arena of psychiatric institutionalization, meaning the closure of psychiatric hospitals, a lot of people assume that because of the advent of psychotropic medication like Thorazine, for example, that's what led to the ability to really release psychiatric patients close down some psychiatric hospitals, decrease the reliance psychiatric hospitalization that it was basically drugs that did that. And without the advent of these drugs without kind of discovering these drugs, we wouldn't have been able to do that. That story is very problematic and simplistic and most of what I just said is also not true. Like it literally didn't happen like that. And so just as an example, for example, is the story of Thorazine, which is a drug that really was used very, very substantially in psychiatric hospitals, but also institutions for people with intellectual disabilities. And we don't hear, you know, the reason why this is so fascinating to me is because, and this is why I call it an alternative genealogy of the institutionalization is because we don't hear the same claims. Oh, why did so many institutions for people with intellectual disabilities closed down. Oh, it's because of Thorazine. That's not what usually people say. But in fact, at least in the US it was used very, very widely in these kind of institutions. But it's not really part of the origin story of the institutionalization in intellectual disability. In the same way that it is in psychiatric hospitalization. And why is that one of the reasons why I think that is, is because the story of, you know, of the discovery of Thorazine, which wasn't really discovered at that time it was just used at that time in psychiatric hospitals. And it was actually used quite frankly to more effectively institutionalize people, not de institutionalize people. But the reason why I think it really took up is this kind of origin story of the institutionalization in psychiatric hospitals, why we were able to decrease the reliance on psychiatric hospitalization is because this is the time that Thorazine is one of the kind of origin stories of bio psychiatry would become bio psychiatry. And, you know, psychiatry wasn't always only biological. So, we have here the convergence of and psychiatric different mental difference as a psychiatric disorder. And that happened really with drugs like Thorazine, for example, and then later on other drugs as well Prozac and so on. And so people kind of look at these stories as these narratives to say, Oh, of course, it's cured of some way decreased mental illness. This is why we're able to people were able to be released from psychiatric hospitals. But of course, it didn't kind of cure that. And it's really important, I think for a lot of us were disability activists and scholars to say that disability and the whole category of mental illness, intellectual disability and so on, are socially constructed. They're not inherent in peoples in bodies, they change over time, they change over cultures and so on. And this is a moment that really connected bio psychiatry and really kind of made mental illness as the epitome of what psychiatry does. And so this is just long form to say the story of psychopharmaceuticals kind of releasing patients because they were cured and all that is a really simplistic version of the kind of coercion that would some psychiatric people call chemical incarceration, and the whole that it has on people to this day. Some of the other factors leading to the institutionalization. And you'll note kind of a spoiler alert that I'm telling you the factors and critiquing them at the same time. As I said, it's really important to understand the simplification, the, that has been made of these reasons for the institutionalization for reasons that I'll discuss in a little bit. So another factor leading to the institutionalization the US is of course, what we come to call neoliberalism, which really started around this time, particularly in the arena of intellectual disability this time meaning early 70s, at least in the US when neoliberalism was kind of important from the UK from Thatcher was important in the US by Reagan. So at least in the US we started to see it. Certainly, it was more pronounced in the 80s. It was kind of imported in the 70s. And so we're starting to see these austerity measures and cutback in human welfare. That's in social services, while at the same time and this is really important to say the spending was increased on corrections and punishment, meaning that this idea of, oh we don't have enough in our budget is, is really about priorities it's not accurate in terms of economic terms. It's not in the budget because it's not a priority, but the money is still there it still went to things like the military industrial complex still started to go more towards corrections and punishment. And so we're starting to see, you know, if you have kind of a graph we're starting to see this uphill in terms of spending on corrections and downhill in terms of spending on actual human needs. Things like housing, for example, education, and actual, you know welfare, and so on. And in addition, we're starting to seeing that the miniscule amounts that are now are spending about around mental health are mostly, and today only for what we come to call bio psychiatry. There was to be a lot of investment in community mental health in peer support that has never come to fruition in the US. But the really interesting you know thing about this, I mean of course, this led to the institutionalization. And that's not the major component that led to the institutionalization, because I'm one of the things that I'm trying to push is this idea that the institutionalization was also a change in how we think about disability and how we think about difference, and so on. And certainly these austerity measures weren't a part of that. You know, to say it very bluntly, you know when Reagan as governor of California said that he's going to close down all the psychiatric hospitals, which he ended up not closing all but he closed many of them. And then later he did the same of course as president. He didn't do it because he cared that people were incarcerated in these places. He didn't do it because he was going to put money into community mental health which he never did. He didn't do it because honestly he cared about people with disabilities. He did it because of this neoliberal policies that he was developing and ushering, and because of this kind of cost profit measure. But, you know, that still led to the closure of psychiatric hospitals but I want to be very careful by saying that this is not the kind of the initialization that I was talking about earlier. So I want to now focus a little bit about the fourth kind of measure or factor that led to the initialization in the US. And this is institutional reform litigation. And so which I'll focus for most the rest of my talk. So institutional reform litigation is any legal actions in the form of lawsuits that sought to reform or improve conditions of public facilities or to desegregate them, especially on the basis of race or disability. So this comes from a history of desegregation institutional reform litigation. It started in the US with Brown v Board of Education so it started with really racial desegregation class action lawsuits. And then moved into other arenas, especially the disability arena. It was the most pervasive in the mid 60s and 1970s in the US, which was the era of disability rights following civil rights. It was an era of enter psychiatry, what is called the principle of normalization in intellectual and developmental disability principle of normalization meaning that to put it very simplistically that people should live as much live grow up be educated with reside with with their peers as much as possible. And basically that's what it means. And this was a new kind of formulation that came from particularly education scholars in the field of intellectual disabilities. So these class action lawsuits or legal actions. The next for the rest of our time is where these class action lawsuits affective and for whom for what. And were they affective with an a right like what did they do also in terms of illicit emotions in people illicit actions in people. What did they do to the plaintiffs to incarcerated people. What did they do to the rationale of confinement, and what did they do to the net of incarceration. And I'll try to answer these questions. So some of the famous ones, at least in the US, in terms of class action lawsuits were Wyatt, the Wyatt lawsuit, which was really about the right to treatment. And this was a very famous case in which the judge said the words without habilitation. The hospital is transformed into a penitentiary, meaning people with disabilities who are confined to institutions at the very least should have the right to habilitation the right to treatment. So this lawsuit created kind of a ruffling effect in which afterwards a lot of lawsuits were made with the precedents and policy was made through the precedent of that lawsuit. The second one, which was very famous and had a lot of kind of resonant effect was the Wallabrow case. The work was an institution for people with intellectual disabilities. At some point it was one of the biggest institutions in the world. One of the things that happened through that case is that the judge said that people don't have the right to habilitation, they only have a right to protection from harm. They basically have the same rights as prisoners, the right to protection from harm. The way that the lawyers in the Wallabrow case litigated it was really interesting because these were all kind of activist lawyers in all this institutional reform litigation and these were kind of taken by firms or people that were activist lawyers. And what they did is that in the series of lawsuits Wyatt, Willowbrook and so on, is that they mandated institutions to increase their quality of care. And the idea was to make the institutions more expensive. I mean they knew or hoped that they won't be able to maintain the institution with that level of care. But they wanted to show that in fact the only quality care that people with disabilities could obtain is outside the institution, it's in the community. It was the beginning of what I call abolitionary litigation. So what they really wanted to do is close down these institutions in some ways. Because many of the institutions were already pretty dilapidated at the time that these lawsuits came on, what they wanted to again gain is that this would be too costly to maintain and in fact would be closed down. A very interesting strategy. But it was really not until the Pennhurst lawsuit that we see not just a lawsuit about the conditions of confinement, but really a lawsuit against an institution for being an institution. So in Pennhurst, the really the carceral logic or the institutional logic itself was placed on trial. It was really a case against the merits, not just the conditions of disability based confinement. They brought in a lot of experts to talk about how people become worse in an institution to talk about how people with disabilities, regardless of severity of disability can live in the community. They showed cases where people do live in the community and the gains of that, particularly people with intellectual disabilities, which is what Pennhurst mostly incarcerated people with intellectual disability. And so the whole issue of why do people with disabilities need to be institutionalized at all really was placed on trial. And it really was kind of the perfect storm, if you will, of lawsuit, like it happened in a perfect timing. The lawyers who litigated it, so on and so on. So this is really what we might call a abolition type of litigation. It wasn't about reforming the institution. It was about how can we use a class action lawsuit to really shut down this institution and in essence all institutions like it to really use it as a precedent to do that. But let's see what happened. So this was, I just want to say all these lawsuits I forgot to put. I'm so sorry forgot to put years on them. This wasn't the heyday of institutional reform litigation so these lawsuits were mostly 60s 70s, and so on when they started to be litigated, mostly in the 70s. A little bit in the early 80s. But we, after the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act, which passed in 1990, we're starting to see a surge of new kind of institutional reform litigation. The institutional reform litigation didn't kind of die in the in the 70s it just kind of transformed. And the way that it transformed David Furleger, who is one of the kind of prominent activist lawyers that was very involved in the Pennhurst lawsuit, for example. He says that legal efforts for the mentally disabled first emphasized commitment procedures, how you get in. And literally it emphasized the right to treatment. What happens once you are in. And the newest inquiry he says is whether there is justification for institutionalization, whether anyone should be in at all, which is what Pennhurst kind of was. In the passage of the ADA, what we're starting to see is an anti-discrimination argument that's added. So it's not just challenging loss of liberty and needing to justify confinement, but it becomes an anti-discrimination argument, and people are discriminated people with disabilities are discriminated against because they are confined while other people who are not disabled are not. So if litigation from the 60s to the 80s or early 90s words about improving living conditions. In the case of closing down particular facilities, the strategies after ADA and especially after the Olmsted decision in 1999, the strategy is to increase community based living. So the fight right now is not so much about the institution and its conditions, although there's a lot of litigation about that as well for sure. So let's talk about what comes after what comes instead of the institution. So let's take stock of this. Remember I asked you at the beginning so was this effective with an E was it effective with an a. What was the role of these lawsuits that really acted as kind of expose is for people. Especially the early ones. But but even contemporary lawsuits, a lot of the kind of big ones really act as a shock and awe campaigns. What they have done is that they really have this cumulative, cumulative effects, meaning that it really brought to the public imagination the horrific conditions of institutions. What I mean by this is that, you know, most people don't necessarily know what's going on into inside of psychiatric hospitals institutions for people with intellectual disabilities. Nursing homes, prisons. And this is because we can't know because we can't go into these places because we're not supposed to know. But lawsuits act as exposés in the way that they kind of bring that attention outside of these spaces of carcerality and confinement. And they really politicize people both people on the outside that were really horrified by these early lawsuits and exposés. And the fact that institutionalization still persists. So people are horrified. It politicizes people on the outside. It also politicizes people on the inside. So, in terms of the Pennhurst case, the Willoughborough case, they became kind of groups of people. It really brought people together, especially in terms of self advocacy. So the seeds of self advocacy in intellectual disability movement came through processes like these lawsuits, whether or not they were successful. But that's how a lot of people kind of came together. So one of the other things that it did or the main thing that it did is that it brought through reforms that really resulted in changes in these facilities. More buildings, more staff, more funding. Unfortunately, it brought in more buildings, more staff and more funding, meaning these institutions lingered on because of these lawsuits that some of these lawsuits sought to close them down. They did in some degree the opposite, unfortunately. So Willoughborough closed down, Pennhurst closed down, but they closed down 30 years, 40 years after the initial lawsuit was brought on. This is decades later, decades. By that point, there was hardly anybody in there. And this is not to say that the people that remained there should have stayed or something like that. But this is to say, what has often happened is that it was litigated for decades, resulted in really watered down consent decrees that were not adhered to, went back to the court, went back to the court, went back to the court and so on. This is what prison abolitionist activist Rachel Herzig calls tweaking Armageddon. This is this kind of reform. Let's do a little bit more of this. Let's do a little bit more of that. But in essence, you're really tweaking catastrophe. What this reform did is that it critiqued conditions of confinement, but not really the rationale of confinement, questioning how service, you know, whether or not services are effective doesn't necessarily lead to eroding the legitimacy of caging people. And the other thing that's really important is that some of these, even if they ended up in the closure of particular facility, it wasn't necessarily abolitionary, because some people end up in a different facility. So closure or facility, even though it's incredibly important, it's necessary, but it's not a sufficient action on the road to abolition. So I want to, you know, kind of move towards the analysis that would lead us to the conclusion here. And this is the difference between kind of reform and abolition or the pendulum, not really a difference because they're very connected, but the pendulum between reform and abolition. And this is from the Politics of Abolition, a 1974 book by Thomas Mathiasen, M-A-T-H-I-E-S-E-N. And he followed Andre Gorsuch's G-O-R-F-Z definition between reformist and non-reformist reforms. Reformist and non-reformist reforms that were later popularized, you might have heard it from activists and scholars like Ruthie Wilson Gilmore. Reformist reforms are situated in the status quo, meaning that the changes are made within an existing system or framework. Non-reformist reforms really imagine a different horizon. They're not really limited to what is possible at present.  It's about imagining community living through something like litigation, for example. So that's the difference between reformist and non-reformist reforms. And we can ask ourselves whether or not litigation was reformist or non-reformist. In some cases, it's both. So what are some of the lessons now, you know, kind of bringing us to more conclusion. So what then led to the institutionalization as abolition? I talked about psychiatric medication. I talked about austerity measures or neoliberalism, basically, you know, cutting budgets and closing down things without putting anything in their place. I talked about Medicare and other policies that arose. I talked about litigation. What then led to the institutionalization as abolition? Well, in addition to everything that I mentioned at the beginning, including litigation, one, what I think really led to the institutionalization as abolition was none of those things I mentioned earlier or only a little bit of those things I mentioned earlier. That really helped in the closure of the facilities. But closure is not enough. What we really need is a change in social attitudes towards disability and mental health. We have to see that in the litigation aspect as well. Once kind of experts, including disabled people were put on this stand to talk about why nobody should be in an institution because of their disability or otherwise. We're seeing the influence of inter-psychiatry movement, of consumer-survivor expatient movement, of self-advocacy movement, which by the way, at least in the US, and it's not just in the US, it's also in Canada, actually. And Melanie Panitch talks about it in her work, Panitch, P-A-N-I-T-C-H. The self-advocacy movement, the movement of people with intellectual and developmental disability, they called for closing down all residential institutions for people with disabilities, which they called very earlier on as a form of incarceration. So once the self-advocacy movement really began to take hold, they were very clear and very early, kind of early on clear that it's not just this institution or that institutions, but they talked about how, in their words, we need to get our friends out. We need to close down those despicable places and so on. And so they talked about it, again, they didn't use the word abolition, but basically that's what they demanded very early on, the abolition of these spaces. So that is de-institutionalization, is abolition, it came from social movements. This is why de-institutionalization, it's not only abolitionary, and it's not only about social movements, but this is the aspect that nobody almost ever talks about in relation to de-institutionalization. And this is why. It's radical, it's considered kind of dangerous, right? And it's, we tend to talk more about like the austerity measures, dorsing, you know, all of these kind of notions of why de-institutionalization happened, because we say that it failed. At least in the US, a lot of people blame de-institutionalization for the rise of incarceration, for the rise in homelessness, all kinds of things like that. But de-institutionalization didn't, a lot of things in it we can do better about for sure, but it wasn't a failure. It was a success, and this is because it happened, and it's something that a lot of people for many decades, people with disabilities advocated for it to happen. And so to say that it failed is in essence to kind of blame these movements for things that were much broader, like neoliberalism, blaming disability for neoliberalism. I mean, it's like, but this is the dangerous, this is the danger of this simplistic narrative of the genealogy of de-institutionalization. If we think de-institutionalization only happened because of thorazine and Reagan and, you know, all these kind of stuff, then we really don't have an understanding of disability history, of the resistance of disabled people to their own confinement, of everything that we were able to achieve. And that's kind of thrown into our faces as something that led to the rise of imprisonment, homelessness, you know, and things of that nature, when in essence it was really the socio-economic political changes that led to those two things at the same time. And so one of the things I also wanted to mention, you know, there was also a parents movement and so on. I don't have really time to kind of go into all of this, but one of the lessons that I want us to kind of remember from de-institutionalization is just like people in the self-advocacy movement have been saying since pretty much early 80s. Is anybody should and can be decarcerated. So this is why de-institutionalization is abolition is so so so important, because we have to break down these kind of hierarchies between who can quote unquote live on the outside and who can or should not live on the outside. And in fact, one of the most successful cases of de-institutionalization were not Willowbrook and Pennhurst, you know, and those things that took 40 years to close down an institution, but it was cases in which people started from the margins. People started de-institutionalization with, what do we do with the quote unquote most kind of severe cases or severe disabilities or in the prison abolition world, the opposite of non-violent, the opposite of non-sexual offenders and so on. So what do we do when we start with the violence, the sexual offenders that I'm putting it all in air quotes, if you can see the quote unquote severe cases. If we think about people with the most complex needs first, it's much easier than to release people with less complex needs. This is true in terms of emotional needs, medical needs, all of those things. And so that is one of the lessons of de-institutionalization as abolition. Anybody can live on the outside with the right support. The second lesson is that institutional institution and de-institutionalization is a logic. It's not a place. So closing down an institution is really, really, really important. But it's really just step one because otherwise people will be put in a different institution or a different kind of institution. So the abolitionary framework or de-institutionalization as abolition, again, the way self-advocacy talks about it, no more institutions ever for anybody is really, really, really important because it's logic. It changes how we think about people. It becomes nonsensical for us to cage people for being disabled or for anything. Once that kind of shift happens, then we can really start talking about, okay, what is the best thing for each individual people? And then we start to have a conversation more about community reinvestment. What do we do with all this money? Because it is very costly. Institutionalization is very costly. So can we use that to actually invest in people, in community? And so, you know, one of the things to really remember also that one of the things that happened in the U.S. at least in terms of de-institutionalization. And I know this has happened in Canada too, because this is mostly a kind of women's labor. I do want to kind of point that this is a feminist issue. By women's labor, I mean that post de-institutionalization, a lot of people with particularly intellectual disabilities no longer live in institutions, which is wonderful. But that means that if they live in the community, it's usually with a family member, and that family member is usually a mother or a sibling. And it's really important to kind of develop or think about communities that take up this approach of the abolitionist mindset, but also to do it in a way that is feminist. Lastly, I just wanted to say, what if we don't? What if we understand de-institutionalization as the closure of facilities, but not really as an abolitionist measure? Well, if we only understand it as a measure of kind of closing down things, then we will get into what I call carceral ableism or carceral sanism. Sanism for people who don't know, by the way, just to pause, sanism is the oppression based on particular impetuses to be rational, to be sane. It's mostly the oppression of people that we call psychiatrically disabled, but really it's the oppression of all of us with this impetus to be sane or to perform sanity. So, going back, carceral ableism or carceral sanism is what I define as the praxis and believe that people with disabilities need special or extra protections. But it happens in a way that often expands their further marginalization and incarceration. What do I mean by all this? If we understand de-institutionalization only as something with limits, meaning only for some people, but surely people with severe, quote unquote, disabilities always will need to be incarcerated, right? Surely people, not everybody can live in the community, right? Surely, you know, and so on and so on. Then that would lead to the marginalization and incarceration of people because what happens is that it legitimates incarceration. This is not good for these people, but surely for other people it's fine to have an institution. De-institutionalization as abolition says not fine for anybody, it makes no sense. It's carceral. And so if we think about that, the kind of what people now call alternatives to incarceration, which are so infuriating, we can start addressing really as carceral sanism or carceral ableism. What are some examples? Community treatment orders, right? So people, sure, they don't need to be in an institution, but they absolutely still need to mandatory take their drugs and people need to see that they're taking their drugs. And so we have these community treatment orders. We have what is called chemical incarceration, you know, this enforcement of psychiatric drug taking and so on. And all of these things people say are alternatives to incarceration, but actually are just incarceration in a different form. Here is just a link that I will put in the chat about kind of how to tell the difference between abolition and reform or reform and non-reformist reforms. I'm happy to put that in the chat. But really what I want us to kind of think through together is the pendulum again between reform and abolition and looking at the institutionalization as abolition. Thank you. Thank you very much, Leah. One thing that I really wish is that we sort of, we were in a room where everybody was here able to speak and share. But what I'm going to do is go through a couple of questions that are in the Q&A. And I just want to set it up very, very briefly. I mentioned this earlier. I also referred to it, but just to situate your remarks in the context of Nova Scotia and where it's sitting in in relation to deinstitutionalization litigation. So I want to just sort of frame that. And for people in the audience as well, that an important human rights complaint was successful in establishing before our Court of Appeal, Nova Scotia Court of Appeal in 2019 that Nova Scotia had systematically discriminated against people with disabilities needing social assistance, really in three primary ways. So by forcing folks to live in institutions in order to receive some form of support, second forcing people to move far from their home communities in order to receive that support. And third, kind of the converse of institutionalization, just leaving people languishing on wait lists and getting no support at all. So those things sort of tied together were recognized as systemic discrimination against people with disabilities in Nova Scotia. So where we're sitting right now and I'm saying this to frame the first question that I see here on the list. We're in a process as a province of considering what remedies would answer would would speak to those harms. And so that's where your talk has in in many ways led me to, you know, think in light of the precedents that you've that you've so helpfully put forward some of the pitfalls there but also the incremental kind of the progress and the new strategies and new unpacking of logics and so on. So, a big question that you've put on the table for us is what it might mean to responsively in a responsive to the kind of anti carceral logics, let's say, that you've identified is at the heart of the most potent litigation how how might a remedy look. So here's the first question that I see. It's from Vince Calderhead who's one of the lawyers that worked on the disability rights coalition case he worked for the individual complainants. And the question is what happened to the ADA Americans with Disabilities Act discrimination litigation approach so you sort of built up to that one that was challenging the logic of institutionalizing the legislation itself as discriminatory he says under that paradigm anti discrimination, how can or could institutions continue as you have suggested they have. Yeah, thanks. Thank you Vince for the question and thank you for your work really really really. You know she'll kind of filled me in very very important lawsuit. I'm assuming this is a rhetorical question because. Yes, how. But more substantially, I kind of glossed over it but really the big one in the US was almost dead, you know and almost dead was filed in 1999. And it's a lawsuit that was brought by to through, I should say to plaintiffs. One, the reason why I'm mentioning it because one of the plaintiffs lowest Curtis. She died, I think last month, or two months ago and you know her death is very very mess she was very big in stability rights, and especially self advocacy in the US so I just want to kind of take a moment to you know thank her. We really wouldn't have almost dead you know without her and without the people who brought on that lawsuit. And so what that lawsuit did is on behalf of of lowest and another plaintiff. They reasoned that on the basis of enter discrimination that both of those plaintiffs didn't need to be in an institution because they were already. medically right even the doctor said they don't need to be an institution, but there was no community placements for them to be. And so that was all instead. And so today in the US. I don't want to give a numerical answer because I'm not sure, but I want to venture to say that in almost any, maybe not all but in almost all states in the US there's some kind of an all lawsuit happening like right now, which is based on the same premise meaning with the precedent of all said, and they're literally called all said lawsuits, meaning that people are in institutions because they because they don't live in the communities because of this institutional bias that I mentioned the beginning of my talk, the money doesn't go towards that money from the government goes towards institutionalizing people. And so the lawsuit is based on that is that people even that medically, people say don't need to be in an institution or place there and that's where it entered discrimination kind of comes comes through. And we're asking why it's not working. You know, it's because the US is a capitalist settler. Petriarchal ableist institution and he doesn't really care about these things. But secondly, which I think is related to the other question here. Particularly nursing homes and those kind of institutions in the US, they're almost all always for profit. And so, you know the profit impetus here is like it's huge. So in addition to the to the bias in the actual policy which is Medicare and Medicaid the way allocation is disability assistance right allocation of money. The way that assistance is done in addition to that, there's of course the bias of what Martha Russell called handicapitalism, you know how disability is spun into gold. And this is through institutionalization. A lot of the time so this is a major major like industry at least in the US. And again I really encourage people to pick up your book where you develop this idea of you know the sort of corporate and profit seeking element of perpetuation of of institutionalization in different forms, as well as you know other, other factors perpetuating it so that's that's a neat start on that so that there is another question I see from Allison which I think you've started your your answer was speaking to in part. You're bringing out some cost arguments, which kind of goes back to your, your neoliberal point and the point that sometimes you can find, let's call it strange bedfellows in arguing for the institutionalization, based on economic arguments of incarceration in Nova Scotia provincial jail was 14.8 times higher and says below 2021 numbers and what would have been provided to an eligible income assistance recipient with a disability. So 950 bucks a month for income assistance 14,100 per month to incarcerate an adult. So I haven't gone and checked precisely those numbers but Allison let's take. This is absolutely such such a key point, the investment is so high when the person is in that prison space or in this case jail space. He says, do you believe litigation against the province for their lack of support to folks with disability could be successful. And here, Allison I take your question to go beyond the de institutionalization work of shutting institutions and shifting to community it's kind of the sort of what does that mean in terms of social assistance being in some sense. Yeah, adequate. I would reflect on that in light of your, the precedent sure familiar with, in terms of litigation since that was the question, or, you know, anything broader around social movements as well. Yeah, I think I'm not sure that like litigation would be the way to to kind of counter the economic aspect of this to be quite honest. I, but there is a lot of disability rights activism, you know, around it, mostly through kind of legislation and shifting policy, because this comes from policy, right. So the numbers that you've given are at least in, you know, Illinois, for example where I'm at. If you were to kind of insert those numbers, not just for prisons and jails but large institutions large meaning 15 or I'm sorry 16. I don't know why 16 or over in the US is large. So it's the same thing, meaning exponentially more costs more to incarcerate somebody in an institution. And then it is to provide somebody with finances to hire home health aid or personal assistance and basically support somebody for independent living at home. It's exponentially more cost to incarcerate. So, you know, the question of why again has a lot to do with the, what we come to call the prison industrial complex, the institution industrial complex and so on. And it's not really something that necessarily litigation I think it's going to, to help because I'm not sure it was clear maybe I tried to bury it, but abolition, at least prison abolition is an anti capitalist and anti racist and anti colonial framework. So you, it's not just like a pro disability thing it's really we have to change everything.  She has a book coming out it's literally called Change Everything, because people often ask her, Well, what do we need to change in order to, you know, abolish prisons and literally it's everything.  And so it can't be built on top of the world, or the systems that we have now. It's imagining a world in which we relate differently to each other, and which we don't put profit over people in which we care about you know the land and environment and you know all of those things and those things are connected also within our struggles. Leah and folks in the audience I, I really wish that we could go on and have a much longer conversation. It's now 20 after which is the time when we have on our poster that we end I'm just going to take a moment more to say, just a couple of things and one one response to what I see is Ellison adding to that question. So I would, I would have loved in fact I'd love to have a whole other section with you, Leah, speaking more about remedies and what it would mean to achieve transformative remedies, reaching to the kinds of structural constraints that you just mentioned. And that is the struggle for many of those, not just here but everywhere involved in trying to articulate what the different what a different system would look like and so you had mentioned first and directed funding or money follows the person not the institution so I listen it's back to your, your questions about how the money could be redistributed. And that is one of the, the burning questions I think for us is how one can operationalize and structure such a system without falling prey to the neoliberal, you know, kinds of cost savings, logics, which include downloading administration to individuals, you know, the drying up of supports and so on. So I just wanted to say that as another follow up to this really important question of, you know, where the money is going institutions or something else. I'm going to close it up with. First of all just our gratitude liette to you for coming and sharing this wonderful work and thinking on dismantling sort of a conventional thinking about the institutionalization and its possibilities with us. And I do encourage I'll say it again everybody who's here to engage really closely with liette's work over the last decade and more on this really live this live and bringing issue for us in Nova Scotia both in the prison context and thank you for your questions and I'm sorry to others who we weren't able to get to and in the disability institutionalization context. I want to just say that next up in the health law seminar series is Joanna Erdman, who is McBain chair in health law and policy here at the DAL Friday, February the 10th, same time, but this will be in person as well as online webinar. Her seminar will be abortion rights after the fall of row V wait, and I encourage you so strongly to come out to that one as well. And for me, at least in theory, I can hear the applause in some version of the world in thanking liette once again. So, thank you, liette. Thanks for having me.