Mae'n gweithio'r ddweud hynny i chi'n gweithio'r ddweud hynny fel ydych chi'n gwneud i chi, ac mae'r ddweud hynny'n gwneud i chi'n gweithio'r ddweud hynny. If I was being therapist, so to speak, is how you use your voice. Oh, well, this is, yes, so this might be a habit. Okay, this is a habit. If I want clinically to work developmentally, something people might say aggressively, then I will lower my voice as I go down developmentally through the years. So I will go down. We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is the therapy show behind closed doors podcast with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode of the therapy show behind closed doors with myself, Jackie Jones. And the, I don't even know. I keep saying wonderful. I need to find a new word, the wonderful. Fabulous, dear. Fabulous. Yeah, no, there's a word. Awesome. All these, I've just done, had some therapy by a new physical therapist. And she was explaining the different things she was doing. And I was, for the first time, attempting to do them. And when I did them right, she kept saying, awesome. Awesome. And when I went to Canada recently to Vancouver Island for this friend's mind's wedding, they used the word awesome over there a lot. And I quite like it. But I also like fabulous. Fabulous. Right. I need to change the word. I'll change the word. Oh, you can say wonderful. But I do like all these different types, you know, or delightful, delicious. That's another word. I was thinking, is there a word in, in, I don't, I can't even see starts with an in. I don't know. It'll come to me. Anyway, what we're going to be talking about is the habits that therapist needs to cultivate to enhance the therapy. Yes. What again, what a wonderful subject.  That's what I was thinking when you said this, to break it down. It's an everyday occurrence. So you don't really pay much attention to it. Yeah. So as I said, I was having this discussion with somebody still working 30 years as a therapist. And she's what you really is habits. And I said, you know, habits people cultivate. I'll tell you one of mine. I've cultivated over the years is to offer a cup of tea to the client that comes through the door. Now, when I said that, she started to think real off these types of habits because unconsciously she's been doing them for years and, you know, I have as well. But one thing that I think, you know, now talking on the podcast is when I look back at these habits which we're going to talk about, for me, all of them are cultivating the relationship between the therapist and clients some way. Whether it be of a protective mechanism, whether it's be around boundaries, whether it's around making cups of tea, whether it's whatever it's around, it's the aid of change and positivity in building up that relationship with the client. Yeah. And these habits or unconscious things that we do are going to be individual to each therapist as well. It's not something you learn in training. It wasn't something I learned in training and I can remember in the early days being really conscious of everything I was doing in the room from the moment they walked into the moment they left. So what would be, if you thought back, I don't know how long you've been practising now, but what would be a couple of the habits that you could think about? Exactly the same as you always offer them a cup when they come in. I was always conscious of having snuggly blankets and cushions. I don't know, but whenever I was in therapy, I always felt cold. I don't know whether that was just me or just sitting still for 50 minutes. I have no idea, but I always make sure that there's a throw on the back of the chair or something that they can put on. That was something else that I always did, checking in with them just before we start just an opening up how's your week been so that they could just start the conversation. And I always had a table in between me and them as well. I don't know whether that was a boundary that I needed or I don't know. Maybe that says something. I mean, all interesting habits. I mean, I like the ones particularly about the blankets and the tea. They're all ones around nurture. And I know you're, you know, nurture is really important for you, but I think nurture is important to building up a relationship which has got a level of nurturance in it is important because a lot of the clients we see haven't had nurture. And I know for some people it's too overwhelming and we could have a discussion about that. However, I think to have a positive ambience and a protective space and a warm space, by the way. I know different people, you know, have different psychological temperatures. So they might, when people get fight and they may go to a cold place, which is nothing to do with the heatings of power or not, which I've learned over the years. But what is important is a warm, safe place. And also our therapist that is thinking about these relational needs. Yeah.  I'd show them where it is and, you know, you can go anytime. It's not school. Just general things to put them at ease to start off with. Yeah. Well, what you talked about is structure hunger. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important to think about what I would call relational needs and the structure of the stimulus for nurturance, for safety, for all the things we've just, I think they're important if you like habits to cultivate. I mean, I, I, um, all those things, all those things are important. And also I think I always go into the habit of if it's a 50 minute session, I did 55 minutes sessions, and by the way, was closing down on the session five minutes before the end. So in other words, checking out they are an adult eager state of much as they could be. And not going into emotional material with four minutes left. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I developed that almost, I didn't have to look at a clock. New almost like five minutes before 55 minutes before even. So that, that, that was something I learned earlier on in my career. And what I developed habitually, I think with clients. Yeah. And I think that's, that's a good habit as well is that, you know, you end on time and it doesn't drag on. It doesn't go over the 50 minutes or the 55 minutes as much as they might do that, you know, don't knob comment or something. It's, it's very difficult with some clients. Yeah. So that's what happened on the back of what you just said that another habits that I definitely followed throughout my career was to start the session with and something like this and looking back at the last session we did, how was it for you? Yeah. Providing a sense of continuity between the sessions was something which is sort of hallmark as a therapist. For me, it's, it's kind of as anything come up for you during the week on the last session. So if there is anything, you know that they wanted to to say about it, whether it was a good or, you know, not good session or whatever it is that they could do that. Yeah. And that provides continuity. Yeah. Physical continuity as well as psychological continuity. Yeah. They've taught us immense attachment. So if you're into attachment theory, then you'll like that process we're talking about here. Yeah. And talking about attachment, giving the client plenty of warning if you were taking a week off or if you had a coming up.  Very, very important. That's a habit that became instilled in me. Yeah. All that I would certainly give all my clients that level of notice. So they would feel accounted for and they would prepare if you like. Yeah. For the absence rather than seeing it it's a sort of regressive abandonment. Yeah. Just telling them the week before I'm not here next week and suddenly it's, yeah. I think that's really bad practice. Yeah. So that, yeah. So that's a habit I also developed. Confidentiality is another one which where it was ingrained in my training that became, of course ingrained in me so that is an all therapist that should be really a fundamental byword. So is that a habit I don't know but it was in terms of thinking about it in terms of making sure that in my life all these things stayed in the therapy room and don't spill out elsewhere. Yeah. I don't know if that's a habit but it's certainly an important principle. Yeah. What about note taking? I never took notes. I do it all the time. I have a separate book. Where's the habit of yours? Yeah. I have a separate book for each client just an exercise book and I do take notes which is something obviously we contract and we talk about it from the first session. Yeah. I better say a little bit more I never take notes because it's not totally true. I've very good compartmentalisation in my brain so things can go in. I think the best way to say it Jackie rather than say I didn't take notes I didn't take many notes. Yeah. A minor illegible and probably wouldn't make sense to anybody else is that for me. I have notes, books and I did have notes for clients but I didn't make extensive clinical notes. Yeah. I mean in my training it was taught to me that I had to make notes you know for very different reasons ethically so I've always made notes but I suppose I was responding to lots of therapists I know that make copious notes. Yeah no I don't make copious notes. But even us doing our podcasts I have my exercise book out and I'm making notes just that's what I do. Yeah so that's another habit that I got into. Yeah. So I think I was responding more to the when you said that about taking notes in response to say you're in a relational therapy with the client and stopping to make notes and things like that. So any notes that I ever took or I wrote down I did write down quite a lot now I'm thinking about it. It was always after the session. Yeah. Yeah. Never in the session. I remember meeting a colleague of mine who was did one year with Fitz Pearls who was the creative gestalt psychotherapy and when we talked about notes and he said oh I'll give you a story about notes then. He said he started his first year of training when he was 21 I think Fitz Pearls and he did one year. He said when Fitz Pearls came into the room he told to all his students 40 students or whatever in the mountain there put all your notebooks away no note taking in any of my training. Wow. Which would have hated you. I'd be lost. Yeah. And the reason he gave I mean this is different from therapy isn't it therapy sessions but the reason he gave was that by taking notes you're interrupting contact with him. Yeah and I get that it is true yeah. And when my colleague Oyston Mone about it and said well the most wrong word to say afterwards oh I lost a fortune just think if I had managed to make notes of all the wonderful stories Fitz Pearls has said I could have actually put it in a book and sold it. So it's like what I'm trying to say is that in therapy sessions it wouldn't occur to me to make notes. The notes I take would always be after the session. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting one because I know therapists often take notes in the session. Yeah. I do take notes in there. I wouldn't say I take notes but I will put something down like a word or something that's why my notes wouldn't make sense to anybody else. Yeah. And I learned a wonderful way of doing it without losing eye contact. I could write on a page without looking down or anything. Yeah. So it's a good discussion to have because I know a lot of therapists to do make some notes. So but that's not a habit I did. But I suppose a habit would be that after after the sessions I might write something down. Yeah. Because my memory I've got a good memory especially for emotional content but I still needed to do just some things down. Yeah. Are there habits? One of the things you always did with me and it used to get me every time in training and I've done you know I did the four years training with you but I've also Yeah. A couple of therapy marathons with you Oh yeah. Three day ones. Yeah yeah. And whenever we were having a session you would always just pick up a box of tissues and place them in between us. There's a habit. And it was literally Bob you're doing it again move the tissues. That's one of the things I'll always remember about you. And inevitably I did need the box of tissues. Yes. So there we are. There's a habit of mine that you've picked up. That's true. Especially in the three day marathons. It was very strategically done I thought. Yeah. And other habits might be around and not for me here but therapists who think about cushions who work with cushions for example particularly they might have different how many I don't know three, four cushions or they might put the chair so many metres apart from the other chair. People often have their own habitual way of doing things. So I think another habit is around protection. Yes. So more with it I will a bit I will always inquire about what I might see is lack of protection because I think protection. Another one I do all the time is think about adult eager state capacity. Yeah. Yeah. Whether that you would count that diagnostic habits It is. It's like a checklist a mental checklist really isn't it when you're starting particularly with a new client you know that you're going through these things and then like you said protection and adult capacity because things change week to week when the client walks in the door. Not even. Yeah absolutely. So I'll build that habits and it'd be interesting for people like yourself for to tell me what particular habits I might have cultivated over the years. Certainly you're right about tissues. Yeah. We the thing that always hit me with you when when I was observing you or whether I was on the receiving end of therapy if I was being therapist so to speak is how you use your voice. Oh well this is now this is yes. So this might be a habit. Okay this is a habit. If I want clinically to work developmentally something people might say aggressively then I will lower my voice as we go down developmentally through the years. Yeah. So I will go down. Literally observing you was like watching a master a master class and it was like yeah. Yeah. I trained a little bit in him not a conduction of course him not a induction is to aid relaxation. But one of the things I learned there is the lowering or howling of the voice depending on one. So for example if you want somebody to be more in power themselves and you would give voice would go higher. Yeah. Now I did a lot of work with the younger self so then I would drop my voice. And it was a speed as well. Just slowing things down kind of pacing as well was yeah unartist. So that's a habit which is methodology linked in other words. It's a clinical way of thinking but you are right that if I want to go backwards down developmental self to where the trauma is or whatever we're dealing with or the relational deficits I will lower my voice. See these are the things that I love about psychotherapy is that there's so many different avenues that you pull together without even really knowing it. They just all come together sorry. You know which is why it can be exhausting being a psychotherapist sometimes if you've got a full day it's not just sitting on a couch having a chat with somebody literally you're forward thinking you're working in the moment you're noticing the body language and any changes and you're doing your it's it's all avenues all in one go. Oh absolutely another habit self care. Yes. But you're just talking you're talking about the importance of self care here really. Yeah yeah not burning out. I I get astounded when I go into my centre sometimes and or I hear that this therapist or that therapist has done work with eight clients in a day for example something like that. You know I've always built up self care so that I wouldn't see perhaps more than five sessions in a whole day and that I would you know go out for lunch that I wouldn't see I don't remember that as I go I'd have a lunch for an hour and a half walk around the block make sure I'm walking to a restaurant or whatever it is but I wouldn't go from say you know let's say let's say somebody sees a client at nine till ten or I see a client at nine ten I wouldn't see a ten o'clock client no no and the next client would be at least half an hour. I always used to give me say one third filling in notes or whatever it is after and yeah just I agree totally going out for lunch getting out of that therapy space just you know a reboot of energy to come back in for the next one the thoughts have been in the same room seeing a client after a client after a client yeah. Well therapists forget I think I mean energy I was trained also in energetic therapies and of course when we're dealing with the dark sides of people's energy what does a person do? They don't want that dark energy question for example if you sit with somebody forget therapy if you sit with somebody who's depressed for 20 minutes and you walk outside the door you're going to feel pretty shit yourself now if you're working with somebody who's depressed for example they will want to get rid of that energy and you're the only other person in the room so they'll reject and they won't say it well I'm going to give you this energy but it will be an unconscious process where that energy is projected onto you now I used to always think this is about massage by the way now if you go straight to another client you may give that energy depressive energy which has come from the previous client unconsciously onto the other client for example because you'll want to get rid of it yeah I very much believe in having gaps between clients and going for a walk or putting some of that spray down in the room which cleans the air so that we can get a break in the energetic system which is more healthy yeah yeah I completely agree it's not just the depressed client it's the anxious client just the anxious client whatever it is yeah yeah because we're working with we're often working with quite negative energy massage therapist one of my this is one of my pet subject areas who are doing people's energies all the time they shouldn't see I don't believe anyway they shouldn't do one massage off the other they should clear the energy and I don't think people think enough about what people project onto other people in terms of energy yeah and you know exactly like you said you know if you're not necessarily in a therapy room but if you're out having a drink with a friend who's down you know he does it brings you down as well yeah yeah energetically nothing else so self-care is another habit which I would promote therapists start to you know cultivate yeah in a therapy process and if they don't they'll probably several things will happen one they run the risk of burning out because actually what often happens is that toxicity builds up and builds up and builds up they take on people's negative energies energies and energies and they take it home and then their wife or partner or if they live alone all this unhealthy processes so I think it's very important for the therapist to think and cultivate self-care it's also very good modelling for clients yeah yeah you know I think you're completely right you know and self-care can be modelled in the therapy room and sometimes the client doesn't like it you know like I said making sure that you're finishing on time and you know the the sessions don't extend or if they turn up early that you don't start the session early then you know the time is and that's it boundaries you know but to me that's part of self-care yeah couldn't I couldn't agree more another habit that I cultivated specifically in group therapy and while I'm thinking about this Hamish I did an individual therapy I'm not so sure but I did it religiously in group therapy and I think it came from some therapists who were in the TO world called the Gouldings who did the same thing and said and that is that I always started the group therapy with each client reporting back good news I like that yeah and one of that comes from is these these therapists called the Gouldings who advocated that because it it meant that the client would at least talk for a moment about something positive that happened and start on a positive note even though we might go to different places and I religiously did that for 36 years I think that's a really important thing because you know I have had this conversation with clients before now that you know they can talk about the good things in therapy it doesn't all need to be the bad stuff we can talk about the positive things that you've achieved in this week or and it is nice to reflect back when we're not in a good place that's all we can see it's all we pay attention to whereas if you break it down you know he's like if a client says oh I've had a really bad week why what happened well on Tuesday this happened well what about Monday yeah nothing really happened on Monday well that's a good day then yeah being able to point the positives out as well so I always started with groups like that and that's I was known for that and that's a habit if you like that I cultivated yes I don't know how much I did it individually but I always did in groups yeah some therapists where I don't want to say a uniform but the claws that they wear a habit or the the image they want to portray or or something yeah they want to model down to their clients for example yeah as I say it is a argument against giving a you know offering a cup of tea to it a client on the sessions but I always did that as well now I know my argument for it I know there's an argument against it but it's just a habit it was a habit of mine yeah yeah to offer a drink whether it's water or tea or coffee or or whatever it is yeah uh and the habits oh and always make sure there's a clock in the moon yes yes as you can see I've always had a clock somewhere yes over you so I think we all develop habits and some are much more practical some are methodologically linked I like to think that most of the habits I've cultivated perhaps us you know specific to me are in the service of positivity for therapeutic change yeah yeah and I could explain all of them away clinically by the way I could even explain the arguments against them as well but but for me they are thought out clinically and there's a clinical aspect to it and it's always in the service of positivity for my frame of reference with the client yeah yeah I like that but also for me as a therapist I I like to feel comfy in my workspace as well which is easy for me because I work from home it was more difficult if I was you know in a shared space that was used with other therapists but for me like I said having cushions you know enough cushions that people can make their self comfy I'm having blankets in there that I know you know if they want to snuggle or if they're cold or whatever it is and you know having I have radiators in my room but I've also got a heater you know that people can say and I'll put the heater on if I just want to give it a bit of a boost and flowers I used to like flowers in my room as well that's a really good one I remember going to I used to teach in Australia people you know I taught at the Adelaide Adelaide Therapist Centre and I remember one of the colleagues I met there I remember one particular she used to say to me do you know what one of the habits I've cultivated not she said she spoke like this but anyway I'm sort of deeper she said I'd have lots of make sure that I've got lots of sweets and chocolates and uh sweetie things for my psychotherapy intensives because a lot of the work she did was working with regression and developmental work and when you become young what do you want? Sweeties yeah and it was clinically thought out and that became into a habit over the years and she she was kind of perhaps over 50 years I'm sure and you'd always see in her jars loads of sweets now that's something I never did because it'd be empty all the time and I'd be the size of the bank I wouldn't know that's self-care for you but that happens to people and usually usually the habits are clinically thought out yes yeah then they become habits they're becoming grain habits yeah they often have well you usually have a clinical thinking behind it yeah I do that I suppose I had like a mental checklist that I would go through you know with the room and everything before a client came and my preparation to seeing the client would start way before the time of the client turning up it was like I'd be sat watching Coronation Street and then the doorbell would go and that would be it I would be in the room there was a run up to it for me that's right and I'll bet you all the people listening to this if they're therapists and even if they're clients they'll recognise the habits in their therapist will have their unique styles and that many people by the way do exactly what you talked about they prepare 10 minutes beforehand yeah and many people have cultivated habits usually from clinical thought and it needs to be through clinical thought really yeah yeah and then in the aid of the relational effectiveness yes yeah and we all are all individual like I said I don't I think we did do some training around you know towards the end looking at the therapy room do you know what I mean not necessarily how to furnish your therapy room but about this that space and you know how to make it appropriate type of thing you know yeah having a red therapy room or I don't know but the habits certainly wasn't spoken about because it is individual to everybody yeah and usually has clinical thought so I remember a therapist I saw for quite a long time always sat in the same chair and then and she'd she'd put the chair at a certain distance to the cries now you know I didn't say to her you know I didn't talk to her about that and I'm not sure what she would even said but I guess she might say well just like the chair or she might just say something like well I have the chair so many so distance apart because I feel that has creates a professional boundary often it's clinical led that's what I'm saying yeah and talking about you I did have my own chair that I loved my chair and it would always be to one side of the room unless I was seeing a couple and then I would move it so I was literally in the middle of them if they were sat on the couch so that it wouldn't be seen that I was on one side or the other it was important I was in the middle literally yeah so that becomes a habit but it was yeah yeah so the more we spoke about it the more I realised that yeah I am quite habitual in order of the things that I do I do have quite a few and it's an interesting conversation to break it down yeah as I said and I think I've said it's about 16 times in this podcast that the what may seem as idiosocratic for example what you just said about the tissues for example will nearly always have clinical thought on behalf of positivity and building the relationship up or some thought process on the benefit of the client yeah 100% I've really enjoyed this conversation Borg it's an interesting one though isn't it it is it is and it's something again that you don't really think about it's habitual habits that we have yeah we build up yes over time yeah yeah wonderful thank you so much great no wonderful and I look forward to the next one I think the next one is 68 or is this 69 69 we're heading along to my birthday we're getting there 71 yeah I said it won't be long I'm really looking forward to that one because I can say a podcast for every year of my life we need a special topic for 71 then yeah yeah we won't pick narcissism we need we yeah no we need to pick a special topic for 71 we'll have to think about it we'll have to think about it yeah okay go until next time go yeah look forward to it bye bye okay bye you've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast we hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review we'll be back next week with another episode