now, maybe talk to Kevin about or talk to other people that may be on the line that that are already doing something that you can, you can share it. Dr. Paterson, will you wait? Yeah, I'm doing multiple things in the house at the same time so forgive me for being out. Dr. Muriel and everybody else. Here's the burning question that we have in Hamilton Park. We are feeding all these people, we are seeing parents come in with small children, teenagers, a lot of men, homeless, everything. In a perfect world we could leverage all this good will that we're doing and then bring them to church. But the reality is we have to do church differently. So how do we create, when this is over, a church response to them that connects them and keeps them with us somehow, but not being so arrogant to say, Oh, you must come in our building. You know, should we have a parking lot church or how do we, how do we hold on to all these good people that we have met during this feeding time? I think you hold on to them just like you're doing now.  You build, so often we want to convert our serve those who we serve into those with whom we worship. And that may never happen. I've had to come to the conclusion that there will be some people that we feed that will never come and worship with us. And I have to be okay with that. Now, on the other hand, there will be some people that we feed and we serve and we help who will want to come to worship with us. And we have been the very thing that keeps them away. We have, we have been the very people that keeps them away. We've been the detractor. After we've helped them after we've done something good. And then they come to our church, or they say, you know what I want to because not everybody's homeless. That's not everybody's help. Let me say that some people are homeless, not everybody's helpless, right? Right. So I think we've got to get out of this mindset that just because we feed somebody, they feel helpless. That's not necessarily the case. So can we treat that person with the same dignity and humanity that we do our biggest either or our choir director or our senior pastor. Yeah, we have a people problem. That's our issue. We don't have a desire problem. People desire to be in community people desire to be loved. People desire to be, I think people desire to be connected to the church. Our problem is people. We don't know as Christians often how to treat people. Hey, Dr. Muriel. Well, you just said something there. And I think you started early, they said Romans 12 and two. Yeah. And I think far too often, I'm going to speak about your nomination. We're about numbers and dashboard butts in the seat. It's a different day. And I think from a conference level from a local church level, we have to understand that everybody who we feed is not called to be a member of St. Luke. And I think we have to set our why our why is not to it's to make disciples when I was hungry. You didn't put me in a leadership position you fed. Everybody on this call we have to understand why we do we do. And I think God is waking us up now through this pandemic to understand the institution must be more relational. That's right. And what I realized, Reverend Masters, when we go to home do homeless ministries with our people. I'm members don't even know how to communicate with them. It's like they don't bite. So I think now we have to understand as the body of Christ, that everybody we free may not be a member of Hamilton Park, but they are part of the beloved community. And I think that the system the institution must rethink how we engage people. It's not about numbers anymore it's about impact and meeting the needs of people. And we want to get people in our pews but I think we need to shift that. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah. And, and also, Dr. Boyd when we think about that, and we think about ministry with as opposed to ministry for when we are high society, so did he if you will, we we're going to put some food out there but you can't don't touch me. You know, this is not a time. I'm not talking about the time of pandemic. I'm talking just regular ordinary time.  It's a it's a different world. And so this way we used to do it. I think Kevin made a point and he may want to say more about that. We have a relation relational problem and I want you to know, God is not happy with that. There are people that I came to know in love and I mean dearly love that were homeless when I was at war. I want you to know they protected me like nobody else when I would leave my house in Richardson and go for him because there's papers that I needed to turn in the report to the conference or the district whatever it was it needed.  I know they were they're going to be on the street. They saw my car drive up and they came right over what you doing here. They were right there. I went in the church got what I needed and was never scared. What we have to understand is they have so many gifts to give. Yes. They are valuable. They are made in God's image and if we can understand how to walk with them and and receive their gifts and honor their gifts. I mean, there was there was a couple of them when we didn't have a vision and they told me on Wednesday that they knew how to play. Somebody told them they knew how to play and we invited them to the sanctuary. They did not feel honored. They thought you're they're not going to really let me come in here. Yes, we are. And so it was it was a learning not new for me because I serve the people in South Central LA. I'm going to understand that people are people and they're made in God's image. It doesn't matter what race you are. It doesn't matter if your hair straight or curly. It doesn't matter how much money you have. We may not all have the gifts. Dr. Kevin Muriel or Dr. Bowie, but we have gifts and we have to understand and use those gifts so Go ahead. Go ahead, Miranda. Thank you, Reverend Patterson. Dr. Muriel, can you talk a little bit about so everyone's looking forward to after this because it's going to be better right it's going to be different it's not going to be this we're ready for this to be over. But as a pastor, can you talk a little bit about how we're going to have to be agile and what we can be engaging because to Reverend Masters point and to one of your points earlier. Um, us having messages that emphasize that right now makes us valuable right now. As churches and as faith communities, but gets that lesson about we're all valuable because I am seeing I'm thinking that's what's going to happen talking to a lot. You know, my previous life as a as a as a researcher and demographer and sociologist, there's going to be some quick shifts. So we're going to be excited to get out. But then all of the people that have been able to fill out the paperwork to not have their mortgage or their, their house for closed or their rent or be evicted. There's going to be rapidly changing things we're going to be happy and then we're going to be down and then up and then down and many of our folks who were happy to serve are now going to find themselves in a position where they're questioning their value because now now they need to ask. They need to ask to be served. Right. And so how do we care for their spirits and their souls so that they understand that they're they they transfer that lesson about who we've been doing ministry with being valuable to even though my life has changed and now I'm going to take home the extras after I help serve that I am still as valuable so that they don't back out of engaging with us our numbers don't go down became right there's some things that happen to church life when our members change positions right that has to do with their soul and our agility to go from here's a message of hope to value to sit down somewhere to chat right there's there's some agility there. That is not a six week sermon right series that is not a year long series so can you talk a little bit about that agility. I think you just said it I mean I think you you answered your question with saying you have to be agile you gotta be agile during the season. You know it's and you have to be deeply intentional and deeply intentional caring for people and agile I will I want to say that when we come out of this. Everything all the for me. It is I'm gonna have to spend a lot of time with my people.  And you gonna have to be okay with that. There's no way around that right. And you're gonna have to spend a lot of time with your people reassuring them but also sitting with them in the midst of the brokenness that is inevitable think about it this way. People who have died have had to have funerals. Now you have to go back and have a memorial service so now they've got to relive that entire experience of even if they've you know somewhat. Come to the come to the realization that it happened, but now I've got to sit in front of I've got to send the sanctuary with more people morning crying remembering their life now I've got to relive that so even and people aren't thinking about. They really aren't thinking about that, but because they just want to have a service, but that in and of itself can be traumatic to have to relive I mean, two funerals for one person, like, that's that's a lot. It's a lot on you and it's a lot on the people. I think you can have to spend time with folks, but I want to go back to what we were just talking about to because I think all these things connect. Some of y'all know what it's like. And since we're all pastors and preachers, we can be honest. Some of y'all know what it's like not to want to go to your church and be around some of your people. I mean, we all got them. And some of you know that there are some weeks that you just walk in you're like okay. I don't even know about this. I had to hear them you to say amen. Amen. Jim was with me. Ain't nobody else with me. I got Jim with me. So what in the world do we think other people are going to feel if sometimes we don't even want to be there with the people of God and the saints. So, and so I'll be doggone if you're going to ask me to come and sit in your church and soak up all the looks and the judgment and all of this from folk. Number one, I don't have no, but the second thing, you know, why would I do that I would rather you feed me or help me and I go on about my business. And I'll come back next week. In order to, because Brandon brings up a good point in order for us to reach the masses and care for the masses of people. We're going to have to care for people. We're going to have just love people, no matter who they are what they bring. Because if the truth be told, and we don't we are. I think we tell the truth from the word but we're not good at telling the whole truth. If the truth be told, we all are a mess in some way. So messiness that we are working through having to deal with. I think that's what made the humanity of Jesus so powerful. He wasn't just fully God but he was also human. And the humanity says that I can cry. I can wrestle the humanity says, you know, I know what it, know what it means to suffer and have pain. We're going to have to be human for a while. I just that that's what I really wanted to say brand I would brand I went all around the mountain to say that we're going to have to be human with people for a while.  So, Kate, you had a comment. You didn't have a comment. I thought I saw Kate talk. Okay. Yeah, I had a comment in a question. Dr muriel such a pleasure. I met you briefly. And just a pleasure to meet my, my aunt and uncle were a part of cascade when Reverend Lowry was there so it's just a pleasure to see the work going on with the young people now. I did want to ask and speak to doing ministry with that we're talking about earlier Dr buoy brought up and, and how we are, or how you are entering to the vision of racial inequities that we're seeing with co bid 19 impacting black people. People of color communities of color, and how it's killing us in a way that is demographically different from any other group. And so, when I had a conversation without my co worker and my director this morning Andy Lewis and Andrew Pfizer and Andy brought up an article that's talking about moving through blizzard or winter are we entering into a mini ice age, and my, my reaction or my response to that. That suggestion in that article is that we're, I'm hoping that we're moving into an ice age and mini ice age that will be different after this but that will take the time to lament and take the time to breathe and like you said be human, so that we can see people and so that we can honor and love and, and walk in dignity with people, but I'm hoping that we can dismantle. I am, we're working toward dismantling racial inequities and injustices in health care with some of the things that we are working on with the journey toward racial healing and so healing means that there's a lot of wounding. There are some things that we actually need to name, and we need to make sure that as a system. We are building structures that will take down supremacy of whiteness, and that will actually name that and then we can move forward, because some people aren't entering the church because we don't name and we don't say and we exclude because of skin color because of class, of course, but it for me, the way that I enter into life is from a perspective in the framework of racial injustice. And so we're still working through what that means for our country historically, and I'm asking and wondering how are you seeing that played out in Atlanta in Cascade and the work that you're doing. And if you have any suggestions as to what your hope is or what your, your vision is as we walk through the healing for, for these communities for these, for those of us who are seeing the, the impact of coded for me always talk about black people, we've been doing this, you know, this pandemic, it exacerbates for those of us who are in the black community the things that are already twisting our arms and, and killing us. And so I'm hoping that as a denomination and as a conference will be able to build a different kind of beloved community. And once we, or as we're moving through, we don't have to wait. And once we kind of have some restrictions lifted as to how we're going to do that. Yeah, yeah, you know, I have a, I have a problem with pursuing racial healing, if at the same time, we aren't pursuing the dismantling of the systems that cause the hurt in the first place. We're talking about racial healing and reconciliation. We also need to be talking about how do we dismantle institutional racism and racism that has been pervasive in our land for centuries. And as part of the fabric of our nation. I think we all need to heal. I think that. But, but I can heal, but I also need to be treated as a human too. That's, that's another thing. And the, the truth is, you know, these are uncomfortable conversations for a lot of people, right. I, but I love having these conversations, because if you don't live in the discomfort of talking about racism and institutional racism, much of which, you know, was around far earlier than you and I, all of us. Things have been happening for years. I just thank God that now we can talk about them. But when you talk about the inequities in health care and and in the food disparities and so much the environmental injustice so much black and brown people dying at a higher rate is a direct result of all of these systemic injustices and issues that we've seen for over the last six centuries is not just because more black people getting sick. It's because of the underlying issues that are direct result of, you know, systemic racism. We know the CDC just reported that 30% of COVID-19 patients are African American, even though we make up 13% of the population. I'm trying to start asking yourself why, why in Chicago 70% of the COVID-19 deaths black folks Michigan, Georgia, all have reported higher percentages of black and brown people contracting the virus and dying from it. And so I would simply say that the church has to be on the front lines of having these conversations and so while we're talking about serving people and helping people. We're talking about what it means with even within our denomination for social for injustice to be pervasive. And for us not to really have those hard conversations about racism racial inequality that we see, even in our own church. If the church can get it right. Then how can we expect society to get it right. So what does that take right. It takes those who are in the majority who, you know, are who have built the power structure who have the power within the structure to say you know what this ain't right. And that takes a relinquishing of power. And people don't like to relinquish power. Right. Here we don't people don't like to believe this world is nations built on power, but it takes those who are in the majority group to say, this is not right and there are some inequities that only we can work to solve. So, you start doing that right you do it through a multiplicity of ways. Particularly during this season we're talking about church life. Do you all have a church development office there. One of the things that we're looking at is, is okay, well, we've been paying apportionments all these years. And for us, we haven't benefited from many church development funds that the majority of church development funds coming through our conference, go into predominantly white churches. I get it.  We're asked to pay apportionments, just like everybody else. Most of the time we pay 100%. So how does that how do those funds then flow back out of the structure of the institution into places where we can see equitably those funds are being dispersed. And by the way, who makes the decisions for the dispersing of the funds. You got to go back and just start asking questions. This may be a lot further than you wanted me to go. But I'm just kind of tracing some things. All of this matters when we start talking about even a conferences response to COVID-19 reopening, etc. So, what churches are you going to get, give most of, give the most attention to what pastors, are you going to give the most assistance to. If you don't think that that's going that this is going to play a part in that decision making, we're all fooling ourselves, because it's been a part of the conversation. For, for, since the founding of this denomination and our church. And so I just want to be clear that those who sit at the table, have to always operate with the mindset of, are we doing what's best for the whole. And not just a segment. And sometimes when you ask those questions or sometimes all the time when you have to ask those questions, you have to lean a little bit more towards saying, how is this going to affect those who have historically been marginalized as a part of the structure. That's called thinking equitably. We're not going to be equal. Y'all can, we can continue to talk about this whole equality thing at equality, I think is in the great by and by I want us to be Diana I promise one of these days we're going to be equal. In the eyes of Jesus and the great by and by we're going to all be there. But while we on earth. Generationally, we know that we don't start at the same place. We just don't. And we've got to acknowledge that reality. And so once we acknowledge that we are not equal, then we can say, Okay, if we're not equal, how can everybody be equitable. How can we build the platform that was not in place for us. How can we build it so that for generations that to come that are to come for new clergy that come into the conference for new churches that are developed and built. Equitable for everybody. We need to have an equity conversation. And conferences have to be honest about the inequities that exist, because our denomination and other institutions are simply microcosms of the larger macro that we see in society every day. And, you know, that's that's our reality. I know that was probably a lot further. It's a little bit more greater that you are farther than you wanted me to go. But I just think it's an important conversation we have to have so don't talk to me about racial healing. If we aren't going to talk about destroying the systems that brought the hurt in the first place. And don't be the person that continues to say, Well, I love everybody. And I preach Jesus when in essence, you're the one progressing the empire. Ariel to that point. Um, can you talk a little bit to make some things playing about. So the other thing that we have in this moment in front of us is the ability to create disruption to what I call the charity industrial complex, which is what we contribute to, which is the unequal. It's not helping because we all love everyone, but it's the unequal distribution of those resources in a way that don't get to the people who are the most vulnerable and don't get to the communities right that the system is also simultaneously impacting in the most negative ways. And so right now I feel like we are present in a moment where not only have we not only are we sitting in a moment where we're creating invited disruptions and innovations, but we have the ability to expose and change that entire complex right, whether it's to completely dismantle it or make it more equitable. And so what are some ways we can talk about the things that we're doing and trying so that they don't get dismissed as what we just did that during covert times know our ministries were able to get to the most vulnerable to the brown to the folks who were on the front lines as essential workers, which happened to be because of the industry's mostly black brown women right. We were able to do that. And it wasn't just a special case, we should do that moving forward so how do we talk about what we're doing is not just what we did in the meantime, but as legitimate things to fund as disruptions. Yeah, and then name those disruptions. Yeah, I mean, so you have a few different things working right you've got your, your larger structure.  I think on every level. There needs to be a consistent conversation. And the things the same things need to be raised on each level so if you're talking from a conference perspective number one I'm the first thing I'm always asked conference leaders when they talk about racial justice and serving all you know all this. I always ask who is at your table. Who's at the table, who's talking. If anybody who ever raises the issue at the table, then you won't know about it and it's not that there's any ill will going on at the table.  So what comes out is the things that matter to the people at the table. That's exactly what happens in all these cases on the district level as well as you know the local church level. I think you have to have people at the table who can have those conversations. But here's what I, here's what I really think. Here's my, my, you know, if I if I had a vision for the church. Man, it will be people of every race of every social economic background and demographic coming together to say you know what, we're going to look intentionally at every community at every single community from, you know, your, your low income minority community to your upper echelon minorities to your low income white communities your upper echelon white communities and everything in between. We're going to look at diversity and we are going to be intentional every time we look at doing something. We're going to have every group represented at that table to talk about how we're going to do this. I think if you do that, not saying you're going to solve every problem but you'll be a little closer to working some things out. But if you don't have the people at the table, you're never going to get there. You can throw money at it, you can do it, but you're never going to get there. If you don't have the right people at the table. That's why I thank God for people like sdiana masters and others who are at the table. And you all conference, who can raise some of those issues and who have equity in the conference. But I, but I think it has to be a broader conversation. And the last thing I'll say, I'll be quiet after this is, we can't think that everyone is working against us. There's some people who consciously who unconsciously don't know what to do and seriously just want to want to learn. And we have to give people space to be human and people space to be vulnerable.  And I had to learn that, because I can come to a conversation.  What do you mean you didn't know about the inequities and you know the injustices, what do you mean you didn't know we're not equal. And some people just have never connected the dots. And so my job as a prophet is to help people pastor is in the midst of it to help people to try to connect the dots, and to be patient with people, but also to push people, because this is not comfortable work. And don't think that you're going to come to this table and have a kumbaya moment with me, and just leave and we're going to be doing anything. I'm going to be the agitator that you never thought would be in your life. I'm going to agitate you and every time we're going to say, Well, what are you doing, what are you doing, and you need an agitator at the table. I don't know if bishops or whoever will put an agitator, but you need somebody at the table who's going to press the button. When the button needs to be pressed, you need somebody who's going to press it to say are we thinking about this. Why aren't we doing this. Well, it's not, it's not comfortable. It's, it's hard. We can't do it. Who says we can't do it. You know, I can do all things. That's what I thought word says. Anyway, I'm done. I'm sorry. We're, we're glad to read it opened up this door. So we did, she opened it up and you know, opening up the door to go there. So it wasn't on the agenda, but I think it was still important because it is the section with doing ministry with I just want to add one thing, or even maybe question you on one thing. Kevin, just to take it just one step forward before we start to kind of wrap up for the day. You're talking about having people at the table, you know, and what's implied is having people of color at the table. The thing that that I have found in my years of being just alive and in all the leadership roles. And I think that is that it's, it's important to have a person at the table, but this idea of having somebody at the table because they are black, does not mustered doesn't just because you black, don't mean that you like me as a black woman be a multi race woman don't even know that you know brand is multi race what does that look like, you know, you have to have people really understand know the issues, well read, well connected and can really speak for the issue so so it's it's important to have people at the table I agree, but not just anybody, you know, sometimes we have conferences and districts that put people on committees. Just because they're black, and they want to speak to black talk about the black issue that's that that has not worked and it will never work so would you just speak a little bit about that and wrap our day up. Yes, yes, yes, thank you for saying that and let me clarify Lord, you need to be down with the calls. Okay, what color you as long as you are down with the calls right speak. Absolutely, I have been in meetings before where a, and this guy who's actually very close to me, white male has been more whoa, then you know some of my black colleagues, just like, listen to him, right, you know he gets it this is, this is really about what is what's best for humanity and whoever can speak that true. And sometimes that truth has more power coming from someone in the majority group. I mean, because you can, you can speak from from one who has historically been the position in the position of the oppressor, when the oppressor can speak for the oppressed, that's powerful. Not saying that you yourself have been the oppressor but out of the group. But no, yes, thank you for saying that you need to be down with the calls and and be able to speak in tech and intellectually and intelligently about the calls important. Not not bad grammar, not not ghetto, not, you know, all of this other speak to the people of power, the same language that they speak that that's one thing but the other thing is that we can't forget in this is when we think about that. Not only does the person have to have the right color, they have to be knowledgeable about the issues that are at hand, because sometimes you might have somebody at the table that is so worried about their job. I'm talking about the church now so worried about their job that they may have the, all of the pieces, but they don't have the curses to speak up because they don't want to be reappointed they don't want to be appointed to something that where they may not be able to make a living so there are a lot of moving parts in this. And so all of that is you have to be really careful as to who you bring to the table. And conferences have to provide space and leaders and this is why I say denominations and particularly in our in our in our denomination. And I would even impress this upon upon the leadership of the North Texas conference have have leadership in place that will allow space for disruption, because it makes you better we all need to be disrupted, all of us. It makes us better. Have have space for people to say hold on. Let's think about this without fear of being reprimanded. It was it was told to me by very wise pastor, who has been a hallmark in this in this denomination. Bishop White who was a mentor of mine would always say about leadership, don't want to surround yourself with too many people that will tell you yes. Right.  That's just a leadership lesson so I would say that in these days of COVID-19 my encouragement to this amazing conference because y'all really are a great conference while traveling across the United States and see other conferences. I mean you guys are in fairly and pretty good shape compared to a lot of folks even in this time of COVID-19 we all have our issues right. North Georgia included y'all are in good shape and you guys have good forward thinking leadership. Diana and you know husband Henry and you know so many others who I've come to know and to respect in the North Texas conference and so you all continue to pray for you during this season. But lead courageously. You know if I if I could challenge your leadership lead courageously but lead equitably and you know there are a lot of different faces in this conference that need help and that need assistance and pay attention to them all. Thank you. It's been a long day we had a short lunch just a short break we never did really take a bathroom break we've worked really hard today and I'm going to ask you to give help me and giving Dr. He's given us today and I thank him for that. I called him on a short notice to say we're completely changing the agenda.  And he said whatever you need my friend whatever you need. And so I thank him for being willing to be flexible in what he had already planned we planned this day in August of 2019. Had no idea that this virus was coming around but you know you have to be prepared in season now the season. So thank you Dr. Mario for your flexibility thank you for all that you've given us today thank you for your challenges. Matt you're you're on the line and you didn't have any ideas on call on you but that's okay because we're on the team. So I'm going to ask you if you will announce again what's happening on Thursday and then you know see if anybody has any question be sure and tell them where they can get the link. And pray pray pray. Absolutely. Yeah. So Thursday we're we're just looking at how can we be proactive as we begin to consider you know we've we responded to sort of having to pivot and the changes that we've had to make and now how can we sort of get in front of it and begin to think as visionary leaders about what God's doing that none of this has taken God off guard and they got a still actively moving in our world and how can we partner with that and be proactive or pro sponding to the to the events in our world and sort of the changing context of ministry that we live in so I think Owen actually in the chat room there shared some of the details that's Thursday at 130 for the CCB webinar and yeah I would love to to see all on that. Okay, thank you. We're going to post this. The recording of our zoom call on our conference page. So if you miss something that you were taking notes on it'll be there. So be sure if you need to reach me just feel free to call me you have my cell number 213-880-709 our conference emails are the same. Dr. Muriel and Gerita. Let me just speak to both of you just for a second. Both of you have exciting things happening and you don't know it's the same thing. Both of you are getting ready to have baby boys around the same time. So I know Kevin is excited about his son and I know Gerita is excited about her son so I wanted both y'all to know that and on that note I know both you've been praying and Kevin's been speaking all day so Gerita I'm going to ask you to just close us in prayer because you know we've been praying for you and I know you've been praying so on that note we're going to ask you to close us in prayer. Congratulations Dr. Muriel. Thank you. You too. You too. I tell people not to call my baby no Corona baby. Let's go to our God our creator in prayer. God look at us gathering through technology that we probably didn't think about before a pandemic or a crisis that took us by surprise but never took you by surprise God we say thank you we bow in your presence we just lift you up in the listening and honor because you are God and God alone and you're still on the throne. So we say thank you for going before us making every cricket play straight and every rough place playing. We bless you for helping us to be innovative and creative and the things that you called us to do. We bless you God for allowing us to do the work that you've already called us to. Lord I pray blessings over Dr. Muriel his wife and his children the one to come in the one that's already here I think and I pray God that you would just continue to bless cascade as they do the work that you've called them to. Thank you for the north Texas conference for the Methodist Church and for the church globally. We pray God that you would just be with us and for us and help us to see and to be a word that causes this world to see your son high and lifted up. Lord we bless you and we thank you for today and the days to come and we ask that you give us energy that we don't have. We ask that you help us to grieve and lament and rest and do what it takes to continue in this work to reach out when we need it and to settle down when we need that as well. So Lord bless all of the things that you called us to do and calls us to walk up rightly in your word and truth. It's in the name of the Trinity that I pray these things. Amen. Amen. Thank you my brothers and sisters for your tenacity to hang in there for all day this long call it's been exciting but I know it's been really hard for us. We're just zoomed out but today was a good day. So thank you Dr. Muriel and we will probably talk next week as we get ready for September. Absolutely. God bless you all. Thank you. Blessings to everybody.