The following is a presentation of TFNN. Trade what you see with Larry Pezzavento. Toll free at 1-877-927-6648 or internationally at<PHONE_NUMBER>. Now Larry Pezzavento. All right, looking good, Billy Ray feeling good, Lewis, is from the offices of Duke and Duke, 100 South Broad Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. We happen to be vacationing here in Tucson, Arizona presently where we have a thunderstorm going on outside folks. Very unusual to have a thunderstorm in November here in the valley. Well, we're actually up in the mountains. Let's take a quick look here at the German Dax on a longer term timeframe. You can see that's the weekly chart. There's a possibility this thing could break out and really move a lot higher. But if we look at the daily, you can see that we are sitting right at the beautiful butterfly pattern and also the expanding triangle. And just like we're seeing in our stock market too, that's on the daily. Now, if we move over to the footsie, we'll just get it up here and let you take a look at it. This is the four-hour. This thing doesn't trade very much, folks. So I don't even die. Well, some people have asked me for it. So that's why I'm bringing in here. You can see we have an ABCD. We're above the 78% level. We got a wide bar. It looks like it wants to make that ABCD up to new high ground, which isn't very far away. That's only about 70 pips. So that's not really... Folks, when I talk about pips, that's at the foreign exchange term for PIP, means percentage and price. In other words, a change in price. And they call it pips in the foreign exchange. I'm sure we call it ticks or points in the futures markets and stocks.  And we'll just get this up here to let you folks take a look at it. This is very important what happened in gold yesterday, folks. You can see that we've completed an ABCD pattern down there at the $14.79 level. We're now trading $12 above that. Last night, it gave you a beautiful 61% retracement to buy it. If you wanted to, that would have been around $14.84. And we got up to $14.92 so far to see if this is going to be good or not. But it did take out the lows of October the 30th, and then immediately has reversed. Now, we need that market. The goal is going to be good. It's going to rally more than $17 off the bottom, and that's going to take it above $14.98. We get it above $14.98. Then you're going to have a pretty good idea that, yes, this is a major bottom, and we'll have to watch it very, very closely. But that was a really interesting pattern that he had brought to our attention, and we want to thank him for that. Also, regarding the Treasury bonds, folks, yesterday Mr. Z was on the phone. We were talking about Treasury bonds. We were down at that bottom at just a tad under $158. I think it's $157.26 or something like that. But let's just see what happened last night in the last two days in the open interest in the Treasury bonds. Let's get this up here so you folks can look at it. The only time I look at open interest, folks, is when we're at new highs or new lows. That's really the most important. The last two days in Treasury bonds, we have prices falling and open interest falling. That means the market is strengthening. Shorts are leaving the market. That is what's happening in the Treasury bonds. However, if we look at Treasury notes, the two-year, the four-year, the five-year, the 10-year, all of those are increasing substantially. So you've got a real dichotomy here between the bonds and the notes. The bonds are strengthening and the notes aren't. So I'm strengthening to rally. And we've had a good rally. We've already rallied a full point off the bottom. That certainly means something. So we'll see. But it's very, very oversold market. We've been talking less several days it's been oversold and it's continued to be. And whether this bottom is in or not, we don't know for sure. But you know what, folks? Nobody else does either. That's the real key to looking at some of these things. It's all about pattern recognition. There is a new book out called Great Expectations written by Greg Zimmerman. It's about James Simmons, Jim Simmons of Renaissance Capital. Very, very interesting. Jim is by far the best-paid and also the most successful of all the hedge fund guys. Over the past three decades, he's averaged 39% a year, blowing away most of the... Well, Steve Cohen's up there pretty close. But most of the other competition is far below that. But here is a question, folks. How long do you think the holding period is for Jim Simmons's trades? You want to take a guess? Let's take a little guess in here to see what happens. Now, he's all about mathematics. It's very close, Mr. Z. It's two to three days is all he's looking at. Most of the stuff is about two to three days, folks. And here's a guy that is making 39% a year for 30 years, blowing away even Bernie Madoff couldn't do that. He's beaten Mr. Buffett and Stevie Cohen, blew away Ray Dalio on some of those big names that you see. But you don't see Jim Simmons on CNBC on an interview. This book is a great book. If you're interested in small... And he says in the book, they ask him, why are you so successful? And he said, I found patterns that other people can't see. Gee, what an interesting concept. So I don't know. And he's a mathematician. So the odds of this guy not using the F word, Fibonacci, is very, very slim. So there's something in there that he's looking at. But many people have tried. Very few people have done it. Now, Tucker, not like Tom. Tom is a volatility trader. He trades really strong trending markets is what he tries to do. And it's not... And his percentage wins are not anywhere near... They wouldn't... I don't believe... I can only get through about a third of the book. And I don't think they gave a whole lot of information out if you want to know the truth other than just little bits and pieces of it. But those you could pretty much fit together anyway, because there's one other firm there in New York called D.E. Shaw that is even more secretive than the, what do you call it, the Renaissance capital. So that's neither here nor there. Okay, if you look at Tom's book, he trades volatility. And actually in these last two days with the market just chopping around, Tom hasn't made any money. He has lost a lot, but he hasn't made any. But when the big moves come, he's usually riding that horse. So I hope you get his book. If you get a chance, pick up Tom's book. He gave it to you for free. It's 181 pages, 45,000 words. That gives you some really good ideas. Super trader operates and adding to winners and not adding to losers, of course. That's the one thing that you don't want to do. Remember folks, we're going to try to have Stan Harley on tomorrow if he's feeling better. And also on Monday, the 11th is Armistice Day, when we have Mercury is going to be transmitting across the sky, which is like an eclipse. That'll be on November the 11th. And Norm will be in here telling us about that, which should be quite interesting. And we'll see if we'll get some good information from him on that. So when we get back, we want to talk about the Euro. The Euro has done something last night. We thought it might do, and it did.<PHONE_NUMBER>. The use of Top Flight software applications and technical analysis expertise is essential to successful trading in today's market. You also gain access to the webinar that Steve Dahl and Tom O'Brien just hosted, the best way to use the Taz Profile Scanner to profit. This webinar archive is available for all subscribers immediately upon signing up. 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Toll free at 1-877-927-6648 internationally at<PHONE_NUMBER>. We're back now, folks, and I wanted to bring to your attention the Euro here. This comes from one of our friends across the pond that had been waiting for this pattern to complete. Let's get it up here so that we can all see this and then you'll be able to... Alrighty. Okay, there we go. They're posting things that David White, who's the Mr. Google of the Internet, has posted some things. One of my favorites is from Sir John Templeton, the foremost dangerous words in investing. It's different this time and other things that other people have talked about. When Simmons is working, folks, what nearly I can tell by looking... If he's trading two to three days most, it has to be something mathematical. And he says that and he's a mathematician. That's how he got started doing this. And so I don't know if... I know it has nothing to do with the fundamentals and stuff. The guy's a chain smoker. My gosh, he's got a cigarette in his mouth all the time from what they said in the book. So I don't think he cares too much about his health if he's doing that, but who knows? All right, let's move on here. Let's take a look at this British pound. Let's try it again, Larry. This is the Euro. Folks, if you look at it really closely, you can see the ABCD pattern. You see the B point where it rallies up. We didn't make a high or high on the 29th that we did on the 15th. That makes that an ABCD pattern. And that's why that has held. That's a very, very important spot. That's exactly what we did in the gold market. So that's something that we need to pay very, very close attention to. Could you repeat the name of the author of the book? Okay, the name of the book is Great Expectations, not the one by Charles Dickens. It's by, his name is Greg Zimmerman. It runs about $20 on what do you call it, on Amazon.  But it's really a very, very interesting book because you're talking about folks, one of the things you do is, at least what I try to do is when you find someone that does something better than anybody else, sort of pay attention to what they're doing. And that's something. David mentioned Barton Biggs. I happened to be on a panel with Barton Biggs. Oh my God, this was 20-some years ago. And we were talking about the Japanese stock market, which I knew very little other than the patterns. I knew the patterns pretty good. And we were at 7,000 in the Nikkei, as I remember. I don't remember, I had to go back and look at the charts. But he was so bearish on Japan that he just didn't think he could even have an update. And that was the bottom of the market. And here's a guy that's very, very famous. And he was with Morgan Stanley at the time, I believe. And he passed away just a few years ago. He's sons in the business. But anyway, just because someone has an opinion, we all have opinions and sometimes they're wrong. I mean, there's nothing you can do about that. That's what this is all about. Anyway, let's get back to this Euro pattern. It's just exactly the same as Mr. Z pointed out with the ABCD pattern. You take out the previous lows of the last four or five days where you'd think there would be stops. And there wasn't, and now the market started to rally. That's telling you, you've got to watch that. Watch those old lows and old highs because they're there for a reason. And if they go crashing through there, that's telling you something. But if they just go down there and kiss those lows to say goodbye and snap back above it. We saw that in Treasury Bonds yesterday. Mr. Z was on the line. He asked the question, would I go short below that 158 level looking for much lower prices? And I said, I can't do that because I'm not a very good breakout trader. That's the understatement of the year. So just remember to watch those because the people put their stops in and believe me, your stops are protected. No one's looking for your one-lot or four-lot or three-lot. Believe me, they're not doing that. These are just thousands and thousands of trades. And in the situation with the Euro, it's millions of, not billions of trades. So that's why it's so very, very important. The other thing is I did mention about that open interest in the Treasury Bonds that's just been dropping for the last two days. And that's against what's happening in the notes. The two-year, the five-year, the 10-year, the open interest has been increasing. So that's some of the things that we're paying pretty close attention to here this morning as we're looking at these charts. Okay, now let's move on here to the next one, which is the chart from Enzo over in Italy. I wanted to bring this up again because someone asked me to bring the chart up. Ruby's asking a question, Larry, what percentage is considered good for a successful trader? Do you mean return on investment? I don't think the win's losses means anything. But if you can beat the rest of the market, eight or nine percent, I think that would be very, very good for a successful trader. Now, what I do is I'm basically a short-term pattern recognition trader. I look for moves for three to five days at the most, sometimes bigger ones. Those are the ones that usually get me in trouble, Ruby. But we catch some, like we caught the hogs and we caught the gold and a few others, but a lot of them are just nits and pieces. I average about two out of three. I have about, let's say, out of 100 trades. I'll probably have 62 percent winners and I'll have a whole bunch of break-evens because I'm always interested in putting the break-even stops nearly as close to what I can to some of these things. So that's what I'm really trying to do. But it's all about risk control, folks.   I have to respect that. We're trading right at the target, folks. That ABCD pattern and that E-mini weekly comes in at, you know, 3076 and we're trading. I think we're trading right near 3076 right now. So nothing's changed. But look at this chart. Oh dear, I didn't post it. Let's get it up here. That's not very smart, Larry. Let's get this. Yeah, trading without a stop is like either using it nor a belt or suspenders, Jesse Livermore. You know, folks, when you're trading without a stop, what you're doing is you're telling the market that I know more than you do and I don't have to be afraid of you. And he doesn't like that. But look at this chart here, folks. This is a daily, the cash S&P. You can see the multiple ABCD patterns up there. The target was 3080. We hit 3085 in the futures. The cash was pretty much right there too. So it hit all of those numbers up in here. So that's it. Now, if this were a transit day like we're going to have on November 11th when Mercury is going to be transiting across the sky, which is equivalent to an eclipse for Mercury, I would be heavily short. But right now, I'm just watching to see what's happening. We've been waiting. We've had our nice run down in some of these things. We've been waiting for a big move down in gold, which we've seen that. And silver's also come down pretty good. Euro's been chopping around. That's pretty good. Someone's asked a question about the cattle. Folks, I didn't do anything in cattle. When we had, let's just get that up here, because this was the one that Rich Anderson, and we'll get Rich on just as soon as he gets back into trading mode. Let's just get this up here. He's taking a little break right now. And if you'll notice here in the cattle, we made that ABCD pattern right at the bottom, folks. Look at that. That was at 9850 in cattle. We're now trading at 116. That's a big move. And we haven't had any pullback. Look at that. There's just one day where we had a little bit of a pullback.<PHONE_NUMBER>. Larry Pezzavento has just started his brand new service, Fibonacci 24-7, and he's already delivering content to his subscribers on a daily basis when the markets opened, and even on weekends. Each Monday, you'll receive Larry's written report that provides detailed commentary and a summary on the charts and videos that Larry sends out. And throughout the week, when warranted, he'll send out via charts or videos or both the key markets that he is watching during the day. This will be up to the date active trading information that will help you in your daily trading. In Larry's first week alone, he sent out 25 charts, 6 videos, and a full report to his subscribers in just one week. If you're a technical trader that uses patterns and retracement to trade, then Larry's service Fibonacci 24-7 is something that you must try. 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David has been delivering solid recommendations for his subscribers recently, and if you'd like to see the type of newsletter he delivers every morning, then visit the front page of TFNN and you'll find the Path of Lease Resistance under Trading Newsletters. For all the details, and to start your 30-day free trial today, log on to TFNN.com now. TFNN is excited about our new software charting program, the Art of Timing the Trade Chart. In collaboration with Tom O'Brien and using his best-selling book, The Art of Timing the Trade, David White has programmed an outstanding piece of software that will complement any trader's methodology. Using this first-of-its-kind program, the Art of Timing the Trade Chart allows you to scan thousands of stocks for Fibonacci formation setups, including guardleafs, ABCs, butterflies, and much more. The Art of Timing the Trade Chart is designed to help you when scouring the markets for stocks just beginning to form the trading patterns that many investors spend days, weeks, and now we're offering licenses available at only $79 a month. We are so confident that you're going to love this new charting software that will even give you a 30-day unconditional money-back guarantee. Don't miss out on this incredible new piece of software. Get your copy of the Art of Timing the Trade charts today by visiting TFNN.com. Okay, we're back, folks, and I just got a real interesting tidbit of information from our good friend Rich Anderson. He's listening to the show, so hopefully if he has a chance he will get back to us and come in. But he's forwarded on... We get the letter, of course, of Dennis Cartman, one of the most prestigious guys in the business. And Dennis has posted his fear-greed index like he does every day. And you'll notice here that we are at the emotions driving the market. You'll notice that we're at the 89% level. That is... You can see we're pretty close to that high level, which is 86%, which is extreme greed. And remember, as Gordon Gekko said in Wall Street, greed is good. It's only good if it keeps going higher, boys and girls. And these markets seem to want to do that, but we'll see. Anyway, that's what we're looking at here with this. This was updated yesterday morning. So I imagine with the market up again today it's probably going to be a little bit. Ivan Boski there. I happen to see Ivan Boski at Drexel more than once because he was in the Milken Building. And that was back in the old days. And here he goes. We'll see. Let's talk... Hold on one second, folks. I'm trying to get this frog out of my throat. Just a second here. 927-6648. That's one of the things if you need to call in, it would be a good idea. We can answer any questions for you if we can. We've covered the Euro... Oh, here's what we want to cover. This is a very interesting one. Also from one of our friends, Mr. Randy Kay, sent in a really neat chart about the commodity index, the CCI. You'll notice here, folks, this goes back over the last six years. You see those red arrows? Like you see, that's a trend line. That's a valid trend line. And the reason why it's valid is it hits it. And each of those numbers is going to be a Fibonacci point.  And now what we've done is you notice that little green circle that's there. We have popped up above that. That's actually a pretty good sign. And if you look at the bottom where he's looking at the relative strength, you'll see that there's been a divergence which is also a positive sign. So some of these things are starting to turn. We've already seen it in coffee. Coco has been going up for quite a while, but coffee has had a heck of a move. So the one that's still down and dirty is the cotton. It doesn't seem to have any friends, but that could change in a moment. People have asked me, one person asked me if this thing would be fine in this trade deal. Folks, I think that's a magician's trick. See what's happening in my left hand? Will your right hand is doing something else? I don't believe any of that stuff that goes on in the news anymore. And especially lately, it just doesn't make any sense to me. So that's the main thing. Question about the gold. The gold, we had a low folks in the gold. Let's just round it off at 1480. Now, the harmonic number of gold is 34 half. That is 17. That's the key figure to look at. So if we rally more than $17, so if we go 80, 17, that's 97. If we clear above 97, say at 1500, that's telling you that gold has made a major bottom down in there.  That's all it is because it's not, it shouldn't rally more than $14 off the bottom. I don't know what the high level today, but my guess is it's not going to get much above $14. That would be all I would be looking at. So we'll see. I don't know. Oh, you mean in the S&P? There is. At 3059, 3060, you're right. There is a small ABCD there, dear. And it can certainly get there without too much trouble, but who knows? I don't know, but you know what? Nobody else does either. That's the whole key, but it's coming down and that's the key. Let's go on here to the next one and get up here. Hold on one second here. We might have a caller coming in here. Do you play? Please display your hourly chart. The bonds are saying, play your hourly chart and show what higher price to gain on long. This is about the bonds, Mr. Z? Yes. We did some of that yesterday, but we'll do it again here. Let me get the old Bondoli chart and we'll do it the funny way here. First of all, I'll post what the what the AI program was showing today. We didn't have a positive expectation seeing Bond, but watch the last part of the day, but that's when it's at least active. Let's just get this hourly chart up here. I think there was the 4-hour that we were doing that showed us so much. Yes, this is where we are here. Hold on, Mr. Z. I got this chart up and we'll see where we are. Let's get this up here and we'll bring this up. We went down and we took out those lows at 58. That was back last week in October. We took those out. Now we've rallied a full point in the Treasury bonds. If this is really bearish, because you can see here, look at this very, very closely. I'll repost it so you can see it a little bit better here. If you look at this real closely, you can see that this ABC structure from going back to September down into early October at the 78% level, that ABCD measures to 154 and change, and then the last one measures to 154 and change. That's where I think it's going. Watch the rally here because the biggest, let me do the calculation here to get to 382. The key level here to watch on the bonds will be at if it breaks 150, if it gets above 159 10, that would be above the 382 retracement and that would say that yes, this has made a pretty good bottom down in here. We did not take out the bottom of September as of yet, folks. Did you see that? 5716, our low yesterday was 5728. That's the key one because if we take that out, then we're heading to 154. No matter how you look at the notes and bonds, folks, on a longer chart, they look bearish. Interest rates are going higher, not lower. That's the main thing of what we're watching here as we're looking at some of these things. I hope that helps, but we'll have to wait and see how this is going to unfold. That's pretty much it. Okay, let's see if there's any other questions that we might have here. And then we will move on. I wanted to cover a couple of things that people have asked me about the... Let me ask Mr. Z. I hope that covered Mr. Z. Is that pretty much the same that happened what we're looking at here? I don't remember here. Okay, good. I hope that helps. That was a really great chart last night, Mr. Z. Thank you very much. I was looking at that and when you sent it to me, I said, wow, someone like confirmations. I'm actually... I'm... Well, the Russell's been the weakest, Tucker. There's no question about that. Let's just get that up here and let the folks take a look at it on the big picture here. Because of all the indices, that has been the one that has been here and just look at this on a longer term basis. It never even came close to new highs. You can see here we have these three lower highs in here. That's that 135 pattern for what we call the... What's the index name? Shucks, I don't know.<PHONE_NUMBER> If you're in the CD market and looking for a secure investment, the Tiger First Mortgage Program may work for you. 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The Bull Bearer Trading Hour with Tom and Tommy O'Brien. Next. We're back, folks. Someone's asked a question about how do you handle fear in the markets? Folks, remember, there's four fears, and we've talked about these. Fear of missing money, fear of losing money, fear of being wrong, fear of getting out too soon. I can't remember the fourth one. Somebody will remember it. But all these fears are silly because those are things that we have to go through every time. It's a fear of missing out. Anyway, you have to go through those. You just face it. That's all you have to do. It's really quite amazing. One of my friends' father-in-law was very, very afraid of heights. So do you know what he did? He enrolled in the Air Force to become a paratrooper jumping out of airplanes to get rid of his fear of heights. Well, it worked, and he made it. So that's very, very important. I want to look at a couple of things here that we've followed all for quite some times here, folks. We're going to look at these Fang stocks because they have been acting very, very... Yes. The hogs are holding good. They're holding good. It's $66.55. I do like those. They've held that 64-level ruby just like we had hoped. So that's it. But let's take a look here at Netflix. You can see here it's acting much weaker than market stock. It's just not doing a whole lot. So that's a very important one. The next one we want to take a look at here is Amazon. Even though we had that $100 and some dollar... When does that come out, Terry? When is that natural gas inventory? I can't read this today. Yes, it is natural gas inventory type. When does that come out? I don't even remember. Not to worry. Let's move this up here. There we go. Hold on here a second. You can see Amazon. We've had a nice rally. We've rallied almost $100 a share from the load that we made 1030. I think it is 1030. But I think that's... Yeah, tomorrow is... Today is... Let's make a correction, folks. The inventory report today is for oil. That's 1030. And I believe the natural gas is for tomorrow. That's why it caught me by surprise. Not a problem, folks. I get surprised a lot. So that's not a big deal. All right, let's move on to the next one here. Facebook actually had just completed a very nice... You'll be punished severely, Terry. You'll notice here we just made an ABCD Gartley up there at the 707 level, very close to the 618. Whoa, boy, you should hear the thunder, folks. Woo, we might be off the air here. Boy, this is really loud. Son of a gun.  Boy, that's a big one today. That's unusual for us to have a thunderstorm here in Tucson with that. Okay. There's no way you could have heard that. Did you really hear that? Oh, you heard it, and you're in Alaska. Okay, okay, Grove. All right, I'll put you on the list now, Bubba. All right, let's... All right, hey, Steve, thanks for sending me that 10-pound salmon. That was really nice of you. Oh, let's move on here to the next one that's... This is another one that's been on the Watch List and that's the Google. And you'll be able to see here that you have this a beautiful ABCD pattern up there. We backed off a little bit from that level, not too much. And finally, the big daddy rabbit of all of them, which is Mr. Appel. Let's get it up here because it's still way up here. Remember our target on Apple with all these multiple ABCD patterns on the weeklies, monthlies came in at $2.45, and we're trading above that by about $10. So that's neither here nor there. Okay, Mr. Z is telling us about the Tucson radar. What is it saying here today? You don't see any storms in here very much? No. There's hardly anything there. Why do they show storm? Because it's really thundering and raining here. You better check your weather service there, Mr. Z. This one's not... This one's not right today. Of course, the weatherman is like anybody else. It can be wrong too. Let's move on to something that someone asked me about, and that is the US dollar index. We cover this all the time. Wow. Sarah, that is thunder, isn't it? Wow. Oh, it's not raining. It's just a lot of thunder right now. That's all we're getting. So we did rain a little while ago, but let's move on here. The reason why I say that is if I get knocked off the air, you'll know why. We actually hear that. Wow. Well, you notice the support at 9,700. Very, very important. We sent videos on this. We talked about it. We did everything we could, but stand up and scream, and we've held that level, and now we're trading around 9,750. The real key today is going to be folks in that... What do you call it? Oh, shucks. I lost my train of thought here. It's in the Euro. If that Euro that we talked about, let's just get it up here. This is really important as well. It's important to me. Here's the Euro. We're going to bring this to your attention again just to give you something to watch at. All right. Let's get it up here. Here's the Euro. All right, and as you can see here, we made that low down there at 110, 110,60, and now we're rallying a little bit. We dropped from October 21. We didn't go anywhere, but you see those two... You see those two... These are four-hour charts, folks. So you see those two really big swing. We went from 111,3050 all the way down. We dropped 70 pips straight down, and now we're having a little bit of a bounce. Those major big moves down like that, they have to be respected. Just like we respect the gap that we saw in the S&P two days in a row, right? Okay? They have to be respected. I don't have to do anything you don't want to, but I'm a technician, folks. So all I can go on, because I don't listen to the news, and I don't... You send me some stuff here and there, and I take a look at it, but I look at the charts. If the charts tell me that that pattern is complete, then I'll say, yeah, well, that looks like an interesting one. So that's neither here nor there. So let's sort of pay attention to that, because that'll be a very, very interesting one to do. Now, there's been... Al tells me that the lines have finally cleared up, folks. The call-ins were... Alan said we had the most call-ins we've had in a long time today. And wow, that was lightning. Did you see that?  Whoo! This is really amazing here. This is... Whoa, there's another big thunderstorm. Whoa, even I can hear that one. Who knows where we'll be tomorrow, folks? Let's keep a very, very close eye on Sunday and 87 degrees in St. Petersburg. Well, good for you. We got thunder and lightning here, but the rain stopped. Well, we'll just see what's going on here. Two things, folks. We're coming to the end of the show. We're going to watch 1495 in the gold. We get above that. It's got a chance to rock and roll. So watch the pullbacks. See if you find a little ABCD in there. They might be pretty good. The Euro, watch it closely, because if we make new lows now, that's going to be a really bad sign. So keep that in mind also. Very, very important, okay? And we've got a break coming up here in a bit. And then after that, we'll see if the lightning did any damage. It didn't strike because I didn't hear the strike. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. We'll be right back. To offer you the very latest in market news, plus new subscribers get to test drive our newsletters risk-free for 30 days. From all aspects of the markets, including stocks, bonds, metals, commodities, and tech, there's a newsletter to fit your needs exclusively from TFNN. Stay informed each day you trade and get the competitive edge that will help you stay ahead of the game. Visit our newsletter's page by going to TFNN.com and click the newsletter's button near the top of the page. TFNN.com Educating investors. Basil Chapman has just announced a live 90-minute webinar he'll be conducting for subscribers to his daily trading newsletter, The Opening Call, which will be taking place Tuesday, November 19th from 5-6.30pm Eastern Time, titled A Comprehensive Review of the Chapman Wave Techniques for 2020. This is a great time to sign up for a 30-day free trial to The Opening Call while gaining access to Basil's live subscriber event taking place later this month. With some stock picks up 15-30% this year alone, Basil will review many of the Chapman Wave techniques that helped in their successful analysis, as well as providing the sectors and stocks that he thinks will be of importance heading into 2020. For all the details, check out The Opening Call on the front page of TFNN.com This segment is brought to you by Thinkorswim. For more information, just click the Thinkorswim banner on the front page of TFNN.com We're back, folks, and I would like to solve the mystery of that thunder and lightning, folks. We just had a hail storm here. We're in the midst of it right now.  That's unusual here, because, you know, it's not usually that close. Okay. How do you, the AI partner developer is? Well, I'm working with Alan Weisman and also John Jameson. The original one was Dennis Reakin and there's several in between, but I've never heard, yeah, it's really heavy here, folks. It's a very heavy hail and I'm probably going to lose electricity here pretty soon, so we'll see. The overall grain markets are starting to come up, folks. So, yeah, that's well, the problem is here in the office, there's a skylight and that skylight has plexiglass or whatever it is, any type of rain, especially hail, it's like a well, I wish I did. I've never found anybody to do it right. You know, that's always been looking for someone, but never been able to find anybody to automate it. So that's what we're looking at today. Any other questions that we might have? Oh, Mr. Z, ask whether I trade the one, the RMMB versus US dollar. No, I do not yet as of yet, Mr. Z, that's mainly because I just got too much on my plate. I follow the euro, the pound, the yen, the Swiss and the Canadian dollar and, of course, the US dollar index. Those are the ones I follow. The RMMB is getting very, very big, so it will be followed soon, but right now I haven't really done anything with that, so that's pretty much what I'm watching here. Yes, it's because of the skylight that's there. It's really heavy, folks. In fact, Sarah is hiding under the bed right now. Oh, no, wait, she's back in the kitchen. Okay, but that was really, you should have heard it when it first came. It was just literally shaking the house. There was so much hail coming down, but now it's backed off a little bit. But that's highly unusual for us to have that kind of weather. Anyway, no matter what, we're going to try to have Stan Harley on this week and then later in the week we're going to try to also have Rich Anderson. So live every day in an attitude of gratitude and may God bless.


So good afternoon everyone. My name is Nick Visas from Proxieskill and today I'm going to present the new features and changes in Proxieskill version 2. So a bit about us, Proxieskill LLC. We're a small company, a bit smaller than Google and we primarily do Proxieskill development, but of course we also provide support services to our customers and also some DBA consulting stuff. We're hiring, so if anyone's interested in doing either C development or you know Proxieskill support, please reach out to us. We work 100% remote and we're very flexible with the time and the type of work. There's a lot that you can do at our company, so reach out to us if you're interested. This is an old slide of some companies using Proxieskill and let's get started with a specific talk. So in the beginning I'm going to start off with some performance enhancements that have been added and then go into the features, specifically GTID, causal reads, the extended support we've introduced for Galera and Amazon Aurora. We're going to touch on the LDAP integration that has been implemented and then move over to security kind of stuff, audit logging features that we've introduced to SSL. We've built a lot of things in terms of logging to get information about what all of your connections and what all of your processes in your database are doing, so I mean we've implemented all of that with JSON, so we're going to try and go through that quickly. This is a longer presentation than we have time for today, so I'm going to try and whiz past some sections. And then finally discuss the firewall that's been introduced and SQL injection detection. So performance enhancements, starting off we've upgraded a lot of our internal dependencies. This led to a lot of code changes. We moved to the MariaDB connector version 3. We've upgraded Gemalock, which in itself is faster to version 5.2 and we've also upgraded the SQL light and the lib config. We improved the performance of the MySQL refresh variables process, let me call it. It's very core because I mean this takes care of updating all of the stats variables for every single thread that's running in every single process, so the changes here really made a big improvement. We also made, well it was actually a complete overhaul rather than several optimizations for the stat tables and that goes together with a monitor module changes. A lot of code was just completely rewritten and some bugs were found. Well there weren't actually bugs, there were performance issues in FAST when running proxy SQL in FAST forward, so those were addressed and we've also added a variable where you can pass through a list of variables that you want to keep multiplexing enabled for. That will make a major performance improvement because you won't have to create individual query rules. You can just group them all together and say, okay do not disable multiplexing for this list of variables, so that's quite useful. We also introduced some memory optimization specifically on the vacuuming of the internal proxy SQL database and the stat schemas and we also introduced this variable to normalize the digest text so you can actually just store a portion of your digest rather than the full query especially when it's a bed sheet, full double bed SQL statement and you don't want to store that in your database. And German lock which we already discussed. So in the query cache we've also finally implemented, this was widely requested, just the command so that you can be able to flush your cache and we also improved the cache TTL, now it actually purges the cache entries rather than handle it as a background process. Previously it would just mark that the cache should get emptied at some point, now it actually gets emptied in real time and we also have added an option to avoid caching empty result sets which can create a lot of garbage essentially in your cache. So GTID causal reads, I'm just going to touch on this feature, I hope everybody has, has anybody here worked with the GTID causal reads in proxy SQL or is familiar with it? Okay, this is a presentation in itself but I'll just try and give you an overview of the feature. The way it works is we'll set up proxy SQL as we normally do, we'll also have to deploy an additional component called the bin log reader. What this does is it checks the currently, the bin logs that are currently being processed on each of the instances and just sends the transaction ID, so that's the identifier for the server and the sequence number for the GTID. So in this way proxy SQL can track the replication status of every single instance and you can define query rules to ensure that all of your statements that are being executed on the slaves will be accessing a node that has data that is needed for your transaction. So I won't say up to date data but it will make sure that the data that you're trying to access is up to date on the instance. So the bin log reader itself is a really lightweight process. It just sends two numbers for every event where actually it sends the source ID just once and then it just sends the sequence ID. So it's lightweight both in terms of what it's processing and what it's sending. You don't have to worry about network throughput. It's also built with an angel process so it will stay up and ensure that the data is flowing back to the proxy SQL instances. So where can we get this? This is in a separate repository to proxy SQL itself. If you want to download it from the repo, from GitHub repo, you can build it yourself, it's just make and then your platform name. We have actually created packages and we will be releasing these soon. So keep an eye out for that. So Galera application. I hope everybody is familiar with Galera. Show of hands. So I will skip the overview of Galera application and just say it's a very nice technology. It's virtually synchronous. Proxy SQL has great support for it. So we've introduced a similar table to the one that we used for group application where we can define the concepts we need for the clustered configuration. So we can define how many writer instances we have. We can define whether our writer instance is also going to be used as a reader. We can define a threshold for how many transactions behind we can let a node be before considering it offline. And then we also have the option for the backup writer host group, which is essentially similar to the backup option in HA proxy. You can have instances just on like a warm standby in case you lose your master. So that's what the table looks like inside proxy SQL. You'll need to define four different host groups, one for your writer, one for your backup writer. This can obviously be an empty host group if you don't want to have a backup writer. And you also have to define your reader host group. The offline host group is a special host group that proxy SQL will use itself when it detects a node as offline. It will move it into the offline host group, keeping only the active nodes in the writer and reader host groups. So you can also define which instances you have active in case you haven't have an instance that you haven't launched yet or you've taken down for whatever reasons. Again, these are the settings we discussed before about configuring your max writers and whether the writer should also be used as a reader. Separate health checks have been introduced. These check the WSREP variables to determine the status of a node. You obviously can set the interval, the timeout, and the max timeout count for each of the checks. By default, we've left the amount number of checks to three. You might want to tune this according to the needs of your environment. There's also a new variable, this is specifically for Pocona X2DB cluster, PXC main mode. So if you set this variable on the PXC node, proxy SQL will pick up on the change and set this node to offline soft so that no traffic will be routed to it. Amazon Aurora. So we've added a lot of support for Amazon Aurora in version two. The way it works is it will track the replica host status table, which contains the replication information about your Aurora cluster. It supports auto discovery to a certain level. You still need to define your reader and writer host groups, but it's enough to just specify one node and proxy SQL will connect to that instance and based on the information it collects, it will build your topology. So it has native, so it has auto discovery, it has easy awareness, and you can even set replication leg granularity to milliseconds. We have a similar table to the one for Galera cluster as well, but we have, I don't know if you can see these clearly, there's some new Aurora specific variables. For instance, your Aurora port, your domain name, the new reader weight variable. These are all documented on the GitHub wiki, so if you want to have a look at what each one does, the main variables to keep in mind are max lag millisecond, which is how much milliseconds we can tolerate to keep a node active, and the check timeout and interval. The rest are similar to a regular group replication or Galera cluster configuration. We also have a logging table where we keep all of the statistics of how many checks failed, the reasons for their failures, and this is where you can check the monitoring. It basically takes all of the information it finds in Aurora and also persists it in proxy SQL. And then the last thing that I want to touch on here is we also give an option where you can directly in your select statement specify how many milliseconds of delay are okay for a query, in case you have some query that needs to be more up-to-date, and it will go and it will find an instance that has the most up-to-date data for you. Just to note, it's not the exact measured lag, but it's kind of an estimate because you can't know the exact amount of lag from the time the connection was initialized. So this is the lag that proxy SQL at least knows about, but it's highly granular and very accurate. So again, we have the option to use the writer as a reader, and we can also set this variable to only read from replicas. So LDAP, I don't want to talk about this too much because the implementation is still rudimentary, but there's going to be a lot of active development on LDAP in the next few months. The way it works is a client will connect to proxy SQL and try and authenticate. If proxy SQL doesn't find those credentials within its own list of users, it will connect to LDAP, and it will try to authenticate. It will check multiple groups. It will try to find that user. If it finds map credentials, it will allow the user to authenticate. It's available as a separate plug-in. It's not on the website. It will be released at some point, but it still needs to be brushed up a bit. You can see the variables related to LDAP. It's pretty simple to use. You just have to specify your prefixes, your suffixes, your URI, and make sure you have access, and you can start using this. So SSL supports. We've implemented not only backend, but also front-end support for SSL and proxy SQL version two. To configure it, you just have to set have SSL true and then proxy SQL will automatically generate your certificates. If you want to use your own ones, you just have to create them with these specific names in the proxy SQL data directory. You can verify your front-end connection just by checking the status, and then you can also see that in proxy SQL admin. So there's two points where you would want to verify your connections. The impact, as you can see here, there's a higher impact when there's a lower number of threads, but as the threads increase, because proxy SQL reuses backend connections, there's not a huge impact. I mean, it's almost comparable with just the backend SSL. Also, you'll see reduced latency as the connections get prepared in the connection pool, and once they're ready, you won't even see the difference. AuditLog is a new feature that was sponsored in proxy SQL 2.0. This allows you to track events both for the MySQL module and for the admin module, so you can track successful failed authentications, graceful connects, close connections, change of schemas within MySQL, and also you can see what's being changed within proxy SQL admin. Just an example of what these logs look like. It's all in JSON, so you can see the type of error or the type of message, connector K, you can see if you've got SSL, so this is a good way to be able to log all activities that are happening in proxy SQL. Additionally, we improved the general log, which was previously a strange custom format. Now we've migrated that to use JSON, so in order to enable the events log, you just have to specify the file and that will start producing events, which look kind of like this. I don't know if it's a bit small, but here you can see a select statement was executed, and it shows you the type of query, and it shows the host group ID. Here we can see host group ID minus one, so this was actually served from cache, whereas this went to host group one. I think no, host group zero. So it's a very nice way to see what's going on in proxy SQL. This is, think of it as the equivalent to the slower general log in MySQL. Very useful. It should always be on in development environment so that you can see what's going on. I did a lot of implementation here on exporting stats in JSON, specifically the process list and the free connections. That's a lot of information because you have to consider that for every connection in proxy SQL, you have information about the front-end side of the connection, the back-end side of the connection. These connections could be changing. There's a whole stack. There's a whole lot of reusing, so it's very difficult to track all this, and it also results in a lot of information. So in order to sift through this, you can use JSON extract in proxy SQL admin. This is what the information looks like for a third ID zero. Don't worry. Keep calm and love JSON. If you beautify this and you break it down and dissect it, what we can see here, it's a bit small here, we have back-ends, the client, and the connection. So you can get information about what's happening on your back-end, very useful information. For instance, if multiplexing is disabled, if auto-commit was true, if what the last auto-commit sent was, and within my SQL here, you can even see the statements that you're executing, whether it's a prepared statement. You can see exactly what's going on. But of course, it's a lot of information. It's difficult to sort through unless you know exactly what you want to get, but we wanted to keep it explicit so that we could have an easier path to diagnosing issues. So here we can see the connection element. You can see what char-sets being used. You can see binary logins enabled. It's a complete log of everything going inside, going on in your processes. And here we can see an example of what three connections looks like. This is a much more contained view of data. Most of the information you would get from your stats MySQL connection pool table, as well as some other system stuff. Here you can see affected rows, the character set, some systemic information, packet size, and some MySQL info. If you want to get this information in a clear form, it's best to use JSON extract and just get exactly what you're interested in getting. We still have some time. I'm quickly going to go through this. We've introduced a firewall. We used the whitelist approach. Previously, you would use a query rule to block users. Instead, we've allowed a whitelist where you can specify either users or schemas and you can set it up in one of three modes, either off completely, detecting so that you can track what's going through and finally protecting. So think of this as AC Linux for proxy SQL. We also keep a track of all of the traffic that goes through. So it's useful to have statistics on that as well. Finally, we've also added a library for SQL injection. It does work. It does give a lot of false positives because it's very picky. If you're interested, you can have a look at how it works. By enabling it, you'll see messages in your error log about whether there are dangerous statements being executed. And finally, just to add on this, because it was an issue with the initial releases, we have got full support for my SQL 8 authentication mechanism. So thank you very much. We have 30 seconds for questions. We can handle them afterwards.


So this video is going to describe an important property that some games have, which is called dominant strategies. To begin with, I'm going to start using this word strategy that we haven't defined yet. And indeed, you're not going to get a definition for a little while. So to begin with, when I use the word strategy, I want you to understand this just to mean choosing some action. This name in the end is going to be what we call a pure strategy. And it's going to turn out that there's another kind of strategy that I haven't told you about yet. And everything in this lecture is also going to apply to that kind of strategy. But it's not going to matter for you right now. So let's just understand strategy to mean choice of action. So let's let Si and Si prime be two different strategies that player i could take. And let's let capital S minus i be the set of all of the other things that everybody else could do. I'm going to define two different definitions of what it means to say that Si dominates S prime i. So first, we have the notion of strict dominance. And here, I'm going to say that Si strictly dominates S prime i if it's the case that for every other strategy profile of the other agents, in other words, for every other thing that they could do, for every other joint set of actions that they could take, the utility that player i gets when he plays Si is more than the utility that i gets when he plays S prime i. So in other words, it might matter to player i what everybody else does. That might affect his utility. But it will always be the case that he's happier when he plays Si than he is when he plays S prime i. And in fact, he's strictly happier because we have a strict inequality here. So he's going to get strictly more utility by playing Si than by playing S prime i. That means that Si strictly dominates S prime i. Now, we have another notion of dominance, which I call very weak dominance. It's almost the same definition as you will have noticed the only difference here is that I have a weak inequality instead of a strict inequality. And so what this is saying is, no matter what everybody else does, I'm always at least as happy playing Si as I am playing S prime i. And when that's true, I say that Si very weakly dominates S prime i. Now, you might wonder why I have this name very weak. That's because this condition even allows for equality. So even if it's the case that Si and S prime i are always exactly the same as each other, I'm still allowed to say that Si dominates Si prime. And that sounds like a strong thing to say about equality. So we soften it by saying it's very weak dominance. Now, in fact, there are also some other kinds of dominance that kind of live in between these two that are not quite as strong as strict dominance and not quite as weak as very weak dominance. But they're not important for us right now, so I won't mention them. Well, what is important about dominance? Intuitively, when one strategy dominates another strategy, then I don't really have to think about what the other agents are going to do in order to decide that I prefer to play Si than to play Si prime. Because I know that my utility is never worse by playing Si. So regardless of the kind of dominance, it's sort of a good idea for me just to play Si. Now, this can get even stronger if one strategy dominates all of the other strategies. In that case, then this one strategy Si is kind of better than everything else. And in that case, I can say not just that it dominates something, but I can say that it's dominant, that it's just kind of the best thing to do. And if I have a dominant strategy, then basically I don't have to worry about what the other agents are doing in the game at all. I can just play my dominant strategy, and that's going to be the best thing for me to do. Now, formalizing that notion that this is just the best thing to do, I can claim to you, and it's not hard to see that it's true, that a strategy profile in which everybody is playing a dominant strategy has to be a Nash equilibrium. So if everyone is playing a dominant strategy, then we've just got an Nash equilibrium because none of us wants to change what we're doing. We already know from the fact that the strategy is dominant, that there's nothing better for me to do. Furthermore, if we all have strictly dominant strategies, then this equilibrium has got to be unique because there can't be two equilibria and strictly dominant strategies, because that would mean we prefer these strategies to each other strictly, and that just can't happen. So lastly, I want to think about the prisoner's dilemma game, and I want to argue to you that the players have a dominant strategy in this game. So I want to claim to you that player one has the dominant strategy of playing D, and I'm going to do this by a case analysis. So let's begin by considering the case where player two plays C. If player two plays C, then player one is really thinking about this column of the matrix. He knows he's in this column, and that means he faces a choice between getting a payoff of minus one and getting a payoff of zero. And zero is bigger than minus one, and so player one would prefer to get zero, which means that his best response to C is to play D. On the other hand, let's consider the case where player two is playing D. In this case, player one finds himself in this green column, and that's kind of too bad for him because now he faces a choice between the payoff of minus four and a payoff of minus three. And both of these numbers are smaller than the numbers that he had a choice about before, so he likes the blue column better than he likes the green column. But if he is in the green column, he still prefers to get minus three than to get minus four. And that means in this case, he again prefers to play D. So we can see that regardless of what player two does, player one best responds by playing D. And in both cases, his preference was strict. And that means he has a strictly dominant strategy in this case. And so D is a dominant strategy here. I'll leave it to you to see that the same thing is true if I argue that player two has a dominant strategy of playing D and I do a case analysis about what player one can do. But the game is symmetric, so the same argument goes through there as well.


from our studios in the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto, California. This is a CUBE Conversation. Hello and welcome to the CUBE Studios, Palo Alto, California for another CUBE Conversation. We go in depth with thought leaders driving innovation across the tech industry. I'm your host, Peter Burris. It's a well-known fact of life at this point in time. We're going to the cloud. In some manner, way, shape, or form, every business that intends to undertake a digital transformation is going to find themselves in a situation where they're using cloud resources to build new classes of applications and accelerate their opportunities to create new markets that are more profitable. What folks haven't fully internalized yet though is what it means to govern those activities. What does it mean to use data that is in the cloud in a compliant and reliable way? What does it mean to allow rapid innovation while at the same time ensuring that our businesses are not compromised by new classes of risk, new classes of compliance issues as a result of making certain liberties with how we handle governance? So that's what we're going to talk about today. We've got a great conversation for you. Toby Knapp is a co-founder and CTO of Day 2 IQ and Charlie Betz is the principal analyst and forester. Toby, Charlie, welcome to theCUBE. Peter. All right, so Charlie, I'm going to start with you. I kind of outlined the overall nature of the problem, but let's get it very specific. What is the problem that enterprises face today is they try to accelerate their use of technology in a way that doesn't compromise the risk and compliance concerns. Well, we are hearing the same story over and over again, Peter. Companies are starting on a cloud native journey and perhaps a DevOps journey. There's some similarities there. One leads to the other in many cases. And they do a proof of concept and they do a pilot and they like the results, but both of those efforts had what from monopoly we would call a get out of jail free card. They had a pass to bypass certain regulatory or governance or compliance controls. Now they want to scale it. They want to roll it out across the enterprise and you can't give every team a get out of jail free card. Well, let me dig into this because is it that the speed with which we're trying to create new things is that the key issue? Is it that the new technologies like Kubernetes lend themselves to a new style that doesn't necessarily bring good governance along with it? What is, what are those factors that are driving this problem? I think the central factor, Peter, is the movement from stage gated governance to governance of continuous flow. And we get unpacked this in various ways, but really if you look at so many governance models and people ship them to us and we comb through them, and it's getting, you know, doing a lot of that lately, what we see is over and over again, this idea that delivery pauses, experts come in from their perspective with a checklist, they go through, they check the delivery against the checklist and then the green light is given to move on. And this is how we've run digital systems for a long time now. But now we're moving towards continuous flow, continuous iteration. Agile. Agile. DevOps. DevOps, all the rest. And these methods are well suited to be supported by architectures like Kubernetes. And there are certain things you can do with automation that are very beneficial in cloud native systems. But you're up against, you know, decades of policy that assume this older model is based on older guidance like Eitel and Pimbok and COVID and all the rest. COVID 2019 is still based on a plan, build, run model. Which is not, is not necessarily a bad thing in the grand scheme of things, but it doesn't fit into a month long sprint. It doesn't fit. And more and more what we're seeing when I say stage gates are going away, what we're seeing is that the life cycle becomes internalized to the team. You still plan, build, run, but it's not something that you can put controls on at the high level. And so the solution seems to be is that we need to be able to foster this kind of speedy acceleration that encourages the use of Agile, leads to a DevOps orientation and somehow fold good solid governance practices into the mix. What do you think the, let's take a look at 2025. What's it going to look like? And even if we're not ready for it yet. Well, I think you're going to govern a lot more at the level of the outcome. You're going to govern what, not how as much. But there are a lot of things that still are essential and just basic solid good practice, such as not having 15 different ways or a hundred different ways to configure major pieces of infrastructure. You know, there's in the, some of the reports, the state of DevOps report that came out, there was a note in there or a finding in there that it was best to let the developers have a lot of choice. And I understand that developer autonomy is very important, but every time a development team chooses a new technology or a new way to configure an existing technology, that's an expansion of attack surface. And I'm very concerned about that, especially as we see things like Equifax with the struts exploit. You know, we have to keep our environment secure, well-patched, up to date. And if you only have one or two ways that things are configured, that means your staff are more likely to do the right thing as opposed to, you know, infinite levels of variation, you know, on a hundred different ways of configuring Kubernetes. Well, presumably we want the infinite levels of variation to be revealed at the business level and not down at the infrastructure level. I think one of the things that folks mean or folks are intending or hope to be able to do with digital business, you're alluding to this, is create a digital asset, a software-based asset, because ultimately it's going to be more integratable. But you lose the opportunity to integrate those things if you're increasing the transaction costs by introducing a plethora of discordant governance models. Is that what you're seeing as well, Toby? Absolutely, and I think, you know, some aspects of cloud native that make this problem a lot bigger is actually, you know, cloud native encourages sort of a self-service model for infrastructure. And also we're seeing a shift of power and decision-making towards developers, right? So you have developers introducing a lot of these new stacks, often in a very, you know, sort of bottoms-up organic way. So very quickly, an enterprise finds themselves with, you know, 10, 15 different ways to provision infrastructure, to provision Kubernetes clusters. And often, you know, the teams that are in charge of governance aren't even aware of these things, right? Yes. So I think it starts actually with that, you know, how can we find this balance of giving developers the flexibility they want, you know, having them leverage the benefits of cloud native, but at the same time, making the folks that are in charge of governance aware of what's going on in their enterprise, making them aware of the different stacks that are provisioned, and then finding the right balance between that flexibility and enforcing governance. There's ways to do that. You know, what we see a lot is waste people building one stack on cloud provider A, a different stack on cloud provider B, a third stack, you know, at the edge, or in the data center. And so when it comes to patching security issues, upgrading versions, you know, you're doing three, five times the amount of work. Well, let me ask you a question, because we can see that the problem is this explosion in innovation at the digital level that is running into the stricture of historical practices and as a result, people are in running governance. What is it? I mean, if I think about this, it sounds to me like the developer tooling is getting better faster than the governance tooling. Where are we in the marketplace in terms of thinking about technologies that can improve the productivity on the governance side so that we can bring governance models to the developer so they don't have to make decisions at that level? Right. I think where we are in the market is, so obviously cloud native and Kubernetes specifically has seen rapid adoption in the enterprise, right? And I think, you know, the governance frameworks and tools are just now catching up, right? Right. So the typical journey we see is, you know, folks try out Kubernetes, they try out cloud native technologies. They have a very good first experience. It's easy. And so they kind of, you know, forget some of the best practices that we've learned over the years for how to secure a production stack, how to make it upgradeable, maintainable, how to govern workloads and versions, because those tools just simply didn't exist so far. We're now seeing these tools emerge. And really, it's the same approaches that have worked for us in the past for running these types of infrastructure. It's, you know, having a central pane of class for visibility, what versions am I running?  Those are the tools that are just now showing up in the market. But it's also got to, I presume, that a degree of presuming that the tooling itself does bring forward good governance practices into a modern world. Have I got that right, Charlie? Yeah, absolutely. I think this is one of the key things that the updated INO team, infrastructure and operations, and our view is that these become platform teams. So maybe we leave the INO term behind. We go with the platform teams. This is one thing that they should be doing is creating reference implementations. You know, here's your hello world stack and it's perfectly compliant. Go solve your business problem and leave the undifferentiated heavy lifting to us. And this is, I think, should be a welcome message assuming that the stack is providing all the services that the developer expects. Well, it certainly suggests that there is a reasonable and rational separation of duties and function within a business so that people that are close to the business are building the function that the business needs are out there doing it. Meanwhile, we've got infrastructure developers that are capable of building the platform that serves this multitude of purposes with the specificity required for each workload and in compliance with the overall organization. There's a key message that I want to reinforce with the audience. As we think about the future of INO, we've been thinking a lot about it at Forester. What is the future of the traditional INO organization? If I say infrastructure, that implies application and I'm talking about a stack, that doesn't go away.   That's what's merging together. And so while the life cycle becomes something that is held internally within your feature or component team and is no longer a suitable topic of governance, absolutely in terms of the layered infrastructure, this is where it's still a thing.  But it's all back to the idea that a resource is a reasonably well-bound, but nonetheless with the appropriate separation of function that delivers some business outcome and that's going to include both infrastructure at a software level and application at a software level. So look, Toby, you spend a lot of time talking to customers about these issues. When they come back to you, where are you seeing successes most obviously and why? Yeah, so where we see successes is where, you know, organizations figure out a way to give developers what they want, which is in the cloud native spaces, every development team wants to own their own Kubernetes cluster. They want to, is there a sandbox? They want to install their own applications on there. They don't want to talk to a different team when they install applications. So how can you give them that while at the same time enforcing the standards that you need to, right? How do you make sure those clusters follow a certain blueprint that have the right access control rules? You know, sensitive information like credentials are distributed in the right way. The right versions of workloads are available. Organizations that figure out how to do that, they are successful at this. So they govern that from a central place. They have, you know, a central pane of glass, you know, like our product commander where they essentially set up blueprints for teams. Each individual team can have their own cluster. It gets provisioned with this blueprint. And then from the central place I can say, all right, here is what my production clusters should look like, right? Here are the secrets that should be available. Here are the access control rules that need to be set. And so you find the right balance that way, right? You can enforce your governance standards while at the same time giving developers their individual clusters, their development, their staging their production clusters. And here's the options and what is an edible option and what is not. Right. So it seems to me as if I mentioned this earlier, but think about digital business. It's the opportunity to not only turn process or increasingly digitize process, but the real promise also is to then find ways of bringing these things together, integrate the business in response to new opportunities or new competitive factors or regulatory factors, whatever else it might be and literally reconfigure the business quickly. That has to be more difficult if we have a wide array of governance models and operational principles. Charlie, as you think about customer success, what does it mean for the future to be able to foster innovation with governance so that the whole thing can come together when it needs to come together? Well, I think that we need to move to governing again, as I said earlier, governing what, not how. I believe that teams should be making certain promises and there's a whole idea of a promise theory that's out there, a guy named Mark Burgess who is well-known in certain infrastructures, code circles. So what are the promises that the team makes within the larger construct of the team of teams and is that team being accountable to those promises? And I think this is the basis of some of the new operating models we're seeing like Holocracy and Teal. I think we're in very early days of looking at this, but yeah, you will be held accountable for objectives and key results, but how you get there, you have more degrees of freedom. And yet at an infrastructure level, this is also bounded by the fact that if this is a solved problem, if this is not interesting to the business, you shouldn't be burning brain power on solving it. And maybe it was interesting a couple of years ago and there was a need to explore new technologies, but really the effort should be spent solving the customer's problems. Charlie Betts, principal analyst at Forrester, Kobe Knot, co-founder and CTO of D2IQ. Thanks very much for being on theCUBE. Thank you. Thank you, Peter. And thank you for joining us for another CUBE Conversation. Once again, I'm Peter Burris, see you next time.