What's up my friends and welcome back to another video this is the opening shot to well I think the title is going to be something like I just camped overnight in my van in picturesque New Zealand or something along those lines. There's going to be absolutely no clickbait. That's exactly what I'm going to do It's been an idea that I've had in my head for about a week And when there's when there's an idea in my head doesn't matter what it is if it's not going away It's it's you know, it goes back to the old analogy the squeaky wheel gets the oil and and this idea is the squeaky The squeaky wheel at the moment in my head as the cogs turn, you know what I'm saying? Anyway, I'm sitting here at my computer desk as you can see we've we've changed this This room around quite a quite a bit. I'm actually in the process of decluttering my life as far as materialistic Possessions material possessions, you know, it's it's that's that time of year. I am about to endeavor on to my next stage of life as far as geographically, I'm moving Again, so I've spent the best part of the last two years here in Christchurch having spent nine years in Alice Springs, Australia And I am going to travel back to Australia briefly to see my kids and then we'll be on to the next mission from there Anyways guys, that's a bit of an intro for anyone is who is here for the first time. My name is Jacob McDonald For anyone who's who's returning. Thank you for your support over the years today's video. It's gonna cover me from 538 p.m. On Monday the 27th of December and we're gonna probably finish this in around about 18 hours You know, I'll say Probably about 10 or 11 a.m. Tomorrow because what I'm gonna what I'm gonna do is um as I referred to her at the start I'm gonna pat my van and we're gonna take off up the hill and Stay overnight in my van in an absolutely incredible spot that I've taken a few of my friends who've come to Christchurch for the first time there before and You know on on a nice Summer's morning even on a nice crisp winter's morning as long as there's not too much cloud the views are absolutely incredible The spot is called the sign of the bellbird. It's right up on top of the Port Hills right up on the summit so you can actually see you know either side and the spot is right at the back of Littleton Harbour, which is the place in The area that I grew up in so it means a lot to me This is the first of hopefully a few videos about camping overnight in my van before I go to Australia and and move on with my life I don't know when I'll be back in Christchurch. I want to make the most of these last couple of weeks And so it starts today Anyways, that's enough from me. I'm gonna get the van ready. So that's all um I just want to mention one thing, you know this overnight trip May only be 18 hours long But doing this a little bit of preparation is certainly gonna set myself up mentally for a much more enjoyable time now that might be just my OCD Type of personality, but if I didn't clean this before going my mind wouldn't be clean and we wouldn't be having a good time And you'd probably never see this video. So we'd better continue hot actually the whole summer's been being um Rather hot, but today I will say that this is probably perfect weather to go camping at the sites That we may have on a nice crystal clear blue night, but here's hoping for the morning Let's see what the sunset does Red sky at night shepherds delight red sky in the morning shepherds warning So I'm hoping we do see some some orange and red and I Don't know what we're gonna see. We've got to get up there though. That's the main thing So anyway van is sorted We've got drinks on board. We've got no ice yet So on the way we'll stop off at the supermarket get some things But yeah, that's it. That's all we need from home.  I'm not sure what you want to call it, but basically I came inside And I realized that I had two kilos of chicken drumsticks that were about to go off So I've decided to chuck them in the oven. I'm gonna put half in the fridge I'm gonna take half with me and we're gonna put them on ice so I can eat them nice and Fresh freshly freshly cooked freshly cooled Ready to eat so we'll take a kg of chicken drumsticks with me and as well as that we'll get some snacks from the good old supermarket So we look shall we They look pretty decent Although nowhere near done in my opinion now now some may say some may say that these actually look ready and and you know, I guess they are but In my kitchen unless they're almost bird to a crisp they ain't ready So I reckon we've got 20 minutes at 612. I want to be up there by you know 730 at the latest for no real reason I mean we are in summer in New Zealand at the moment and I wouldn't be surprised If it doesn't get dark tonight until you know 945 or something insane like that. So Yeah, that's why I'm in absolutely no rush to get up there middle of winter It'll be pitch black by now, but I'm sure there's plenty of places around the world that have, you know swings in In in daylight like that but in saying that New Zealand is Pretty damn close to Antarctica pretty damn, you know low on the globe and so we've got really big sways Anyway random fact for you you probably knew that already peace Yeah, right so on second thought I reckon we've probably got enough food to take with me Which means that I'll just need to pick up a bag of ice from somewhere. So we've got the chicken I'm gonna take Some yogurt we've got Well, actually I'll get it all I'll put it all on the bench and I'll give you a quick look Because nutrition is key guys nutrition is key, especially I mean Well, they must be done. Let's have a look Yeah, not quite and here we have the smorgasbord that is some high protein yogurt Probably about a third of a tub. I've got three small three small tins of tuna one big one We've got a tin of halved apricots and syrup a tin of sliced pineapple and juice And another tin of sliced pineapple Again in juice We've got one of two Christmas presents that I received this year. This one was for my dad. Actually, it's about half gone But we'll take it and then obviously last but not least the chicken So I reckon I've talked for far too long. I've taken up far too much of your time. We haven't even got on the road yet That's what happens guys. That's what happens in my videos. So, you know, hopefully if I do This type of content more often I can streamline the process Anyways guys, I'll see you on the road Right, so we're finally on the road. It's about 720 in the PM. I've just picked up my bag of ice I've got myself a nice can of vanilla coke Which I'm going to enjoy on the top of the mountain There's a little bit of rain as as was expected I did know that was coming but all I can hope for is a clear morning so we can see all the way down the harbour It's absolutely beautiful. You know, that's why I'm doing this. I reckon You know all jokes aside if I've got three goals throughout this Night up on the mountain in my van by myself, you know with with nothing but Well, I'm not gonna.  I'm gonna have my phone with me, which is gonna Really help with entertainment, but I do have a pad and a pen and I've got my mind, you know what I mean and and So I've got three goals. I'd say the first would be to Write a gratitude journal tomorrow morning first thing the second would be to get a workout in in the morning second thing and The third would be to Feel connected to nature and to earth because at the end of the day, we are indeed a speck a speck like a Grain of sand on the longest largest beach you've ever seen in your entire life We are less than that On this world as as an individual as a human being But we are a part of it and so I guess my third and final goal would be to feel just that a little bit more connected to My surroundings and appreciative of my surroundings and and that's no joke. So I'll see you guys at the top All right, so we're probably about halfway up the hill Not sure if yeah, you can't really see too much out there But that would be Christchurch if you could see but what you can see on our left is a pretty mean Castle Which is about halfway up. So this is called the sign of the Tarkik The sign of the Tarkahe Tarkahe Couldn't be quite sure but it is a bird and so is a Bellbird and Actually on the way come to think of it when we do get to the top We first reach the sign of the Kiwi fuck that looks like an amazing house That would be Well into the million dollar mark one point five easy two million Up here. Anyways. So yeah, we first with we've gone past sign of the Tarkahe Secondly, we go past sign of the Kiwi and thirdly and Finally we come to the sign of the Bellbird So yeah Let's keep going so this is what we're working with as far as Road type and style. It's pretty windy up here but You know not too bad and So we're almost at the top Where we will come across the sign of the Kiwi, but if we do look out that way, I mean now you can't really see too much Sadly That building up there. I'm not sure if you can see it. That's the sign of the Kiwi and I think I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure there's a lookout and possibly a shop Maybe even a restaurant but yeah So that is where we turn we're going to turn right and so we've made it to the summit as you can see where it drops off Onto the other side so you can either go down that way into Christchurch or you can go down that way Into a place called Governor's Bay. What we're going to do is continue along the top of this top of the summit along the top the top of the Port Hills and Stop at a place called the sign of the Bellbird now the sign of the Bellbird is actually a monument on The Christchurch side of the hill, but where we're gonna stay is in a little verge On the harbour side of the hill which gives us an incredible view down the harbour So you've got the best of both worlds. You've got Banks Peninsula And you've also got you know Christchurch What that holds which is a lot of history. I mean as far as a country as in New Zealand being you know extremely young as far as immigrants coming over Christchurch has a lot of history a lot of buildings built between 1850 and like 1900 We're still standing Until the earthquakes that happened. So a lot a lot of them actually came down or Partially came down which meant the whole thing had to come down. And so, you know, that was pretty tragic but if we Yeah, I might just Might just stop here. There's a wee grass verge. Let's just have a look at The left-hand side. So this is the harbour side And oh, yes, I'll get out. I've got to get out for this It's what we're looking like. I mean honestly When it's when it's sunny, it's just absolutely incredible up here, but this is This is the the Littleton harbour and the whole entire, you know landscape is part of what's called Banks Peninsula So Littleton if I can zoom in Which I will Littleton is all the way down there where you can see some cranes on a wharf and There's some houses on the hill and And all that yep that right there and the Littleton rugby ground is right there actually believe it or not right next to the sea Anyways, that is Littleton This is the Littleton harbour and we are standing almost at the end of it. That is quail island Which is smack bang in the middle And this is basically where it finishes up. So I mean it's it is a pretty incredible place and You know Well, it's a bit close for comfort the older I get, you know the more I I'm Realizing how lucky I was to grow up in a place like this and and you know trying trying It's not easy man.  So, you know, I'm trying to feel more connected I'm trying to live in the moment rather than worry about what's happened in the past or what might happen in the future Anyways guys, this is why I'm doing it to get out get out and about make the most of of This place that I've called, you know, I've been so lucky to call home No place like home guys. I'll tell you that much All right, so I'm just pulled up. I'm probably like literally two minutes away, but If you can just see the structure on the side of the hill Well, that's my windscreen, but hopefully it's gonna focus eventually no Really All right, there we go boom There she is so we're gonna we're gonna drive just around the corner there Park up here come along to the side of the hill and come down the track and check that out and we're off Right guys, we've made it There she is in all her glory little tin harbour Looks as if we've got some some visitors actually Which is no issue, but I doubt whether they'll be sleeping here, which is what I'm gonna do So I'm just gonna chill enjoy this and I'll be back with you shortly Yeah, she's not half bad. What about done not half bad at all So this is actually called otatahi reserve or otatuhu or something along those lines Which is basically a parking bay a car park on the side of the road now that is a track that goes along the summit and That's the same track that goes along the summit the other way. So I'm pretty you know, I'm fairly certain that tomorrow morning We'll get up nice and early cracker a White monster get that down and get it get into it a bit of a workout and then into a walk along the summit and this my friends Is the sign of the Bell Bird which is just on the Christchurch side of the Port Hills and Look, I couldn't tell you exactly what this is or when it was built or what it was built for But it looks pretty damn old and if we can I Mean we can't see much as far as the scene scenery, but if we can frame the scene in here It can look pretty pretty cool Something like that boom Hopefully in the morning we can see a bit more, but you get my drift Pretty cool Geez, it's bright actually the lights like condensed and It becomes extremely bright but You know this is I'm not gonna camp in here, but I mean you could Could be haunted though. I reckon this would be as good of a time as any Once again all jokes aside to as long as no one's gonna bust me practice Meditation Bloody brilliant.  We've got the car parked to ourselves. So I I reckon The way we're gonna do this is back it up. Let's go Let's turn around one adi and back her right up to the side and open up the back door and Have this as our view. I Tell you what mate. This is exactly the reason why I was doing this now Let me get as close as I can to the side I'm gonna use the That's close enough. We're gonna experience this together Because I've been thinking about doing this for a long time With this van But I never have And actually I've just seen that I've got a little reserve here Take that path all the way down there, and I've just mowed it. So that's that's handy That's handy isn't it guys anyways Back to the van. I'm gonna have to do a bit of a bit of Tetris To work all this out, but well actually we can probably we can put this outside She live in there It can be a nice way Nice we step to get into the back of this we've lost the wind sock Oh man It actually took it took a couple you would have seen it on my face It took a couple of seconds for me to actually realize what I'm looking at You know, how did I get here? I just jumped in the back of my van turned around and this is what greets me. Okay Wow Just amazing just incredible look at that. Oh That's what I'm talking about guys That's why we did it. That's why we're here for this exact view At least that's why I'm here so this is me for the night I think I'll be fine Think I'll be fine. I don't actually know if it's legal for me to sleep here But I'm gonna risk it.  I live about 20 minutes away. So If someone comes up says I'm not allowed, that's absolutely fine We'll work it out. But that guys That's just that's something else And that's my hometown little sin So what I'm gonna do Actually just thought about this I'm going to Grab my DSLR camera and put My long range lens which I Haven't used in a good three years So I don't know about tonight. We might wait till the morning, but I reckon if I put this on That we we could get some something special or at least we could get some real detail like Down on quail Island or something like that. Anyways, I'm I think I'm getting excited. I'm feeling like a kid. I'm feeling like a kid. I'm feeling connected Nothing wrong with a bit of childlike energy guys All right, my friends It's just coming up just coming up 857 On Monday the 27th and this is how I'm spending mine. I hope you're having a fantastic one of your own and It's getting cold. Honestly.  Anyways guys what I'm gonna do. Let's prop myself up.  Oh Man, I can't wait for this Yes, boy Not as good as straight out of the other no, I'll admit but it will more than suffice mmm It's what people do right when um They must admit I mean this this idea of doing overnight videos in a van hasn't just completely come out of nowhere It's because I do enjoy watching these overnight solo, you know camping in snow or upper mountain or Even in the car park of Walmart. I really enjoy that type of content the moment so I want to try and make it myself and You know, I always see them Obviously they've got a cooker some sort of cooker which I could have bought with me actually and I probably will next time I forgot it Which means that I can't make coffee in the morning That's why I bought the monster calculated decisions. Um, I'm starving. I'm actually really hungry. Oh, what else can I say? these other guys that make this type of video Always show like at least making one meal and um, I Guess that's that's where we're at guys. I wish you could all be here with me. In fact Do I I'm not sure But what I do wish is that I was a little more grateful for it You know one of the next videos I'm planning on making is Going out similar situation to this camping at the base of a massive Mountain and going hiking first thing in the morning taking the camera along And making a video out of it. I mean look if I have to come to terms with the fact that Unless I'm bringing a camera along with me. I'm probably not gonna be willing To go out and do that Then so be it doing it experiencing these things It's better, you know, even if you think that it's just for YouTube At times, which is not but it is it does feel like that at times even that Is gonna be better than never doing it at all so yeah That's a plan and it could well happen tomorrow night anyways guys That's enough for me. Not exactly sure of the the plan for tonight, but I do have a fully charged phone and Like I said before that's gonna cure my boredom not that this is boring, but you know what I mean guys We're in 2021 nearly 2022 it is what it is.  So I've put my very expensive very underused Lens on my camera and we're gonna We're gonna zoom her in and just just see what happens Now this is called quail island See that's what I don't know why this lens does this One of the main reasons why I don't use it because I I mean, I probably could look up how to fix it and what's what's happening, but if anyone does know it just I don't know if it's over exposure or what but it all of a sudden Goes black and then slowly fades back into into normal color, but anyways guys Let's keep going It's not over Well, it's over now So that's quail island and I could actually catch a fairy from down there And little tin Looks like they've just turned on the the lights on the wharf which is That's pretty isn't it guys Anyways, you catch a fairy from little tin Over to quail island so I could do that take the camera and go exploring That'd be fun Right my friends, this will be the final clip of the night It's it's about five minutes away from ten and little tin harbour looks absolutely stunning Let's see if we can zoom in There she is That's not me doing that That's the auto focus Anyways guys, it's been an absolute pleasure and I will see you in the morning. It's it's officially 8 a.m Well, if you thought it was cloudy last night I can't see a single thing. I cannot see Probably any further than a hundred meters in front of me. It's foggy as it's a white up But it was a pretty incredible night and I want to say thank you for being there with me. So anyway There is one thing that needs to be done and that's taken some caffeine So that's what I'm about to do in the form of a monster It's ice-cold and I'd say the temperatures probably I Wouldn't say it's any more than about 12 13 degrees which is Fresh it's 12 degrees Here in Christchurch. So What am I gonna do? Well, I'm gonna sit here for about 20 minutes charge my phone watch a YouTube video put my headphones on Finish this grab this Put my shoes on lock my van up Grab my other camera and then we're going for a walk So I'll see you there cover you up That and we are officially good to go I don't know if you can see but slowly but surely the clouds dissipating behind me and it looks I Think there's one patch One patch of blue sky up there not sure if you can yeah, there she is and Look if I if we go for this walk go along the summit See what happens with the cloud we might get back We might actually be able to see this whole thing and all its glory. I doubt it because it's meant to rain all day today Well off and on but hey only time will tell I mean it's not the ideal weather not gonna lie It's gonna be pretty wet underfoot pretty slippery But as long as I take my time, I want to get 10,000 steps by the time we get back here So it's probably gonna be about I don't know half an hour maybe 40 minutes that way 40 minutes back and Well, let's go Actually, that makes sense. So when we when we turned at the top of the hill to come along towards where we are now That was called the sign of the Kiwi so so effectively if we carry along this path Which runs along the top of the crater for four and a half kilometers We should make it all the way to the sign of the Kiwi. So I reckon that would Yeah, that sounds pretty good. Let's do that. Let's go all the way to the sign of the Kiwi and back Keen all right then. Let's go see this my friends is volcanic rock and That ties into the fact that we are indeed walking along the top of a crater of An inactive volcano Which is basically what makes up this harbour basin So there's a lot of history to Banks Peninsula a lot of really interesting history and you'll find deposits of red volcanic rock a lot of places and If it's not in the ground it could well be in the bricks because they Utilized a lot of it for building materials. I Think anyways Okay, so I've decided I'm gonna listen to an episode of Joe Rogan. I'm gonna put that on right now and I am going to put my camera in my pocket and He'd along my merry way. So peace guys. I'll see you at the sign of the Kiwi Next minute All right, you know what guys, you know what I have absolutely no idea why I'm Troubling myself with the mission of trying to carry a big bottle of water and also a vlog camera When I've got a perfectly good camera on my phone In fact, this is a much better picture than I could have ever got from this So I'm gonna turn right back around I'm gonna put my camera in my car And if I do want to vlog anything along this trail I'm gonna do it on my phone and I reckon we might be using the phone a little bit more often because this picture is It's fairly good, especially for a a front-facing camera Bloody good, mate. What am I doing? right Let's try that again Put that there. All right guys, so I severely underestimated the thickness and the Waterproofness of my shoes. My shoes are yeah, pretty much completely Soaked my socks are too and it doesn't feel too nice You know, I pushed on for about half an hour, but I reckon I'm gonna head back And actually come to think of it guys crater rim is actually the name of a An ultra marathon that they run Along this very track, and I was just thinking 84 or whatever it is 82 84 kilometers worth of ultra marathon running along a track like this. I don't know man That's a bit dicey.  Thanks guys. These are the culprits Banished, okay, so I'm can turn that. Oh, I can turn it round on the go. Okay.  Oh my gosh. Why didn't I do this earlier? Hello again. Okay, sweet. So what we're gonna do is Head back down that trail and just spend a little bit of time at that monument at this at the actual side of the Bellbird because it's Peaceful, it's absolutely beautiful up here. Even though I cannot see a single thing. So the fogs come back in clearly But it is what it is. So I'll see you down there. Right guys I'm just sitting here for a few minutes just taking taking it in before I head down into Christchurch once more Thanks for watching. This is gonna be the final clip of the video. I Had a fantastic sleep. I was gonna get up at about six But I was so, you know, nice and comfortable and cozy in my little cocoon there And it was raining outside and you know, it was pitched like pitch white. Is that even a thing? but It's a white out But um, yeah, I just wanted to say thanks once again for coming along for the night We will do this again. I'm not sure where I'm not sure when Will it be in 2021 or 2022? Well, I'm not sure but anyways as always much love. Thanks for watching. That's enough for me Peace out from Christchurch, New Zealand


In his maiden address as Minister of Education, Sustainable Development, Innovation, Science, Technology and Vocational Training, at the 2022-2023 budget debate, Hon. Sean Edward reaffirmed the government's position to ensure and protect the ideal of education for all and leaving no one behind, promoting inclusivity at all levels. Minister Edward highlighted focus areas of development and expansion as the ministry seeks to improve its delivery of services to the public and meet the needs of students and all stakeholders. At the top of the list is the adoption of a robust technical and vocational education and training TVET policy and improving ICT and connectivity within classrooms. According to the minister, the school system presently does not meet the needs and demands of all students and a strong TVET policy will provide diversification within the school system. Thus granting more students opportunities to learn skills in what he calls high-demand vocational and technical areas, thus granting them more options for learning and choosing a career. So, we have identified four schools that we are hoping to transform into what we call the model TVET school. We are considering, Mr. Speaker, the PI secondary school, the Asia Secondary School, the Granville Secondary School, and the John Audlam Secondary School. Mr. Speaker, we are hoping to transform or convert classrooms into workshops, labs, studios, etc. We are considering a new curriculum that will address, Mr. Speaker, some of the skills that we need in our society today. Part of our mandate in education is to prepare citizens to work not just in St. Lucia but even beyond the shores of St. Lucia. The reintroduction of the laptop program is another aspect of improving ICT and connectivity in schools. Minister Edward says that the reinstatement of the one laptop per child policy of the administration will see some 10,000 electronic devices distributed within the school system. We are getting 2,100 tablets from the public sector modernization project. We are getting 2,100 Chromebooks, laptops from the project, public sector modernization project. And, Mr. Speaker, the government of St. Lucia will be purchasing from a supplier. Well, we have already purchased and we just have within the arrival of 3,800 laptops to be distributed in this country. Other areas of focus include improving accessibility to scholarships, remedying the setbacks of the COVID-19 pandemic in the system, with focus on truancy and emotional support, and the continued rollout of projects such as the OECS Program for Educational Advancement and Relevant Learning, PUL, and the Education Quality Improvement Project, EQUIP. From the communications unit of the Ministry of Education, Sustainable Development, Innovation, Science, Technology, and Vocational Training, I am Daniel Dubois reporting.


I'm here again with Daniel Ellsberg, whistleblower, economist, game theorist, and the writer of Doomsday Machine. He worked with the RAND Corporation, and as many people know, was the person who warned us about the disingenuous nature of how the Vietnam War was being conducted. In this episode, we're going to focus on the implications of his book, The Doomsday Machine, and what kind of things we have to do as citizens, as people, to reform expertise, to bring the military industrial complex into line of service of humanity, and to reduce the dangers of a nuclear winter. And this is right at the cusp and the aftermath of a presidential election. Hopefully this guidance and the activism of those of you who are viewing this can help us set planet Earth and human civilization on a better course. Thanks for joining me, Daniel. I remember in 1922, H. L. Minkin wrote an article about the economics profession called the Dismal Science, and he said, I'm paraphrasing, the only people I trust less than theologians are economists. And he said, in part, because an economist can see when he does something what the consequences will be vis-a-vis power. So they are induced to be silent or to avoid issues where power can react to them. But to be truly contributing to the global public good as an expert and as someone who can bring to life trust and faith and guidance, you have to take those risks. You have to take on what you might call the contours of power and find the courage to provide those public goods. And you are a brilliant example of that, and I would want all of my people in the Young Scholars Initiative to explore our credo as we foment critical discourse. And I will ask you if there's ever anybody you've debated on the question of the doomsday scenario that's in your book who you thought had counterarguments that made you pause, or at least they were ethical, but going from a different place, not a corrupt or cowardly place. But I see what you're calling and asking the good part of humanity to rise to for its own sake, for its well-being. And that is, to me, a beacon that economics and other forms of social science and expertise are valuable when used appropriately, when used in a way that recognizes context and recognizes the pressures and recognizes what failure looks like in those silences. I want to read a poem to you, because you were talking about Greta Thurmberg, and my daughters, who at the time were seven and ten, did participate in that school strike. And shortly thereafter, two of my board members from the Institute for New Economic Thinking, Drummond Pike and John Powell, were over for dinner. And they both know my children, and they were talking about climate. And my daughter went quiet at the dinner, went to bed. It's uncharacteristic. I drove over to school the next day, very quiet, withdrawn. And we've been talking about the haunting elements, like you're talking about two degrees, three degrees, and all of these things. And she's looking at these men who are experts. Drummond Pike founded the Tides Foundation. His friend and former chairman, John Powell, is an African American who runs the Othering and Belonging Institute at Berkeley. These men were scared. They scared her. And at school, she wrote a poem, which she sent to me. I had no premonition that this poem was going to cross our path today. But as I listened to you, I felt the healing that my daughter, Sarah, is asking for in this poem. What is everything by Sarah? What is everything? Is it all essence? Or is it all answers? Is there more? Why am I all covered up, not seeing past or present or future? Is it all an illusion? Why is it all collapsing, destroyed, all those lives not knowing? Will we ever know? Daniel, if more people in my young scholars initiative around the world follow you example, will we ever know, might be answered affirmatively, with that example, with that courage and with forcing power to face the dangers that are embedded in our political economic struggle that you have illuminated for us today. Any final thoughts?  And with your courage, you look at my young scholars in the eye and say, read him too and then come back and tell me whether I'm right. As always, Robert, you've raised a question that is, and I haven't heard before, and I've been interviewed a lot in the last 50 years. And it's a very interesting one, and I wish I had a better answer, a happier answer, because I wrote that book, Don't Stay Machine, primarily not to enlighten the public in general. That was a secondary motive for me. I hoped it would reveal to people who are in the arms control community, as we call themselves, experts on both sides, and that it would show them dimensions of the problem that they haven't been aware of. For example, the importance of the delusion, simple delusion that going first is in the world of nuclear winter, better, never the less, better than going second. That is absolutely the foundational pole of all of our expenditures and budgeting and our strategy and everything else, and it is a delusion like the Earth is flat. It's like that, and I hope that that's never been discussed. First of all, very few of them really know the war plans and that the fact that they are oriented to that point of achieving going first rather than second. But some are increasingly, a lot of people in the field have been exposed to civilians to war plans in a way that I was one of the only ones 50 years ago. So they do know to a large extent. So I hoped to have a dialogue with them and hoped that this book might, let's discuss it, almost zero. It just hasn't happened. As one of them told me, people who are in the subject field, we know what Dan Ellsberg thinks. I've talked a lot about this for a while, but there's a lot in that book that I've never gone into because you don't do it in a one-hour lecture. Anyway, they don't read it. The people in the field, I don't have the impression, have read it. The responses I get, the feedback are from laypersons in this field like yourself. I might say you had courses in it, if you hadn't pursued it. So it's been very disappointing in that respect. It hasn't led me into the arguments that I would have liked to have. And I haven't been exposed to these people because someone with a clearance won't be in the same room with me, essentially. I think if they were to treat me in a respectful, dignified way or something, it would raise questions about whether it was all right, what I'd done to put out top secrets to the public, and that would threaten their clearance. And so, in other words, take my Rand colleagues, I lost all of my friends in the defense department of the Rand Corporation. They all had clearances and they could not afford to have any relations. And essentially, they never came back with one or two. So, in short, to that answer, I have to say, a cost of being a whistleblower is the loss of your relationships with the people who knew what you knew, knew that it was bad, but did not decide to speak out about it. And even knowing you then will threaten their own access to jobs. So the costs of telling the truth are very significant truths that your bosses don't want told and that threaten your job. And they are significant. And now the question your daughter raised, if I may say, what's the chance that that truth, if made aware, if other people are made aware of it, will lead to change? And the answer is in several stages here, much less than one might hope, definitely less than you hope, less than you might expect. The chances are not large. The systems you're looking at benefit people in power who have the power to keep them the way they are, however dangerous. And they and they use the power that way. And they use it against people who will tell the truth. So the chances, as Greta Thunberg says, she doesn't have anything yet to show. I think one of her strengths is her Asperger's, as she says, she's an Aspie, which keeps her focused and keeps her eye on the ball obsessive, you might say, and not distracted by the fact that people thrust honors at her in the absence of any actual change, which is what she's trying to do. So the chance of actually getting the change is not large. But it's not zero. It is not impossible to change this. In part, we just don't know enough to say in social matters, in matters involving human beings and society, we don't know enough to say what's possible or impossible and have confidence. We do make that judgment all the time and have to. But to have confidence and reliable that this can't be done or that the doom is inevitable, I don't think it is inevitable. It can't be proved that we can't change this. It's not likely, but it's small. It's small, but it's possible. In my own case demonstrates that the Pentagon papers themselves when revealed to the public changed their minds, but their minds weren't determining the course of the war. They didn't change Nixon's mind and the war kept on. The war kept on. That's what I was concerned about. But Nixon's concern that I would tell truths about his own policy, the Pentagon papers ended before he came into office. He feared very reasonably I had documents to prove it, which would have made a difference. I didn't, unfortunately, but it was very reasonable of him to think I did because some other people who had those documents could have given them to me. I knew them. They left the government in protest against the expansion into Cambodia, the Cambodian war, so they could have given me the documents if they'd taken them with them or they could have made them public. But as one of them, Roger Moore's, an aide to Henry Kissinger, told me later, we should have thrown open the safes and screamed bloody murder because that's exactly what it was. But his greatest regret and shame in life, he said, was that he had not done that. OK, what if he had the chance of making a difference was not large, but not true? And in fact, Nixon was so afraid reasonably, not paranoid, that I would confront, challenge his strategy of threatening nuclear weapons and expanding the war and could prove it that he took criminal actions against me, which amazingly were discovered. The Watergate people were caught, they testified eventually. Not only was my trial ended, but much more significantly, he was charged with the crimes against me and his impeachment hearings, which led to his resignation and that made ending the war possible. Because by that time, he was the one keeping the war going because he'd started in foolish beliefs that he could win it and then couldn't quit because that would admit that he'd been wrong and had led to the deaths of many lives. He had to be removed non violently. And he was amazingly no one, no president had ever resigned before. I and my wife, who were helping me on this, working in others who were were one link in a chain of events, each one of which was necessary. Had they not occurred, my link in the previous links would have had no effect. But if Alexander Butterfield had not chosen to reveal from sitting inside Nixon's office that he had a taping system that could document his lies, the war would have continued. Nixon would have stated, if other people had not refused to fire the special prosecutor in what was called the Saturday Night Massacre, two people resigned rather than fire the special prosecutor. That caused enough public attention that they had to get another special prosecutor after all. So all these things were necessary. There was a chain of events. Each one was unusual because it involved some personal risk for the person of their career. And with that chain, it actually it did shorten the war, couldn't have been predicted, it was extremely unlikely, but actually it did do that. And there's other examples we could give, miracles happening. Gorbachev and the downing of the Berlin Wall. I think someone below the age of 50, I don't think they can imagine what it meant to see on television the Berlin Wall being breached. That was like landing on the moon, seeing that just was impossible. We knew we'd been trying to put a man on the moon for 10 years at that point. So finally it happened. The Berlin Wall, that was forever. Here it was, people were hacking away and it was coming down. And a lot of people like my son were marched in front of the television. Their parents told them, imprint this on your memory. You're seeing something astonishing. And then Nelson Mandela becoming head of South Africa, having been imprisoned for what, more than 20 years, becoming a head of it, nonviolent without a violent revolution, a miracle, impossible. I'm saying not unlikely, it was impossible. So these were events and now the nuclear winter is very far from impossible. And you could say it's unlikely in any particular year, but it's possible. That's a possibility we could eliminate, actually. It would mean getting rid of a lot of missiles, not all of them, actually, but 95 percent. And so is that impossible? Well, doing it politically could be regarded. There are people who say, no, not worth it trying. Not going to happen. And the odds are with them, but it is possible. And it will take people who think in ways that they haven't been taught to think in ways which will raise questions about their credibility, their reliability, their readiness for promotion. And raise those questions or maybe just really risk their marriages, their careers, their access would not. These risks can be taken. That's what's called moral courage, but it requires risk of ostracism. And it turns out that's much more rare and difficult for a human than risking their life much more. And people who will risk their lives in combat do not risk their their jobs or their ostracism, they do not risk angering their superiors. That's humanity. But we do have the capability for seeing the truth and for passing it on. And I won't even go into it now, Robert, but it's I've been interviewed a thousand times or more, really, in 50 years. And I haven't had occasion to and no reason but to compliment my interviewer in the way that I am feeling for you, having just spoken to you for a couple of hours, but you've sent me material to read by you. And I'm just struck by it entirely. In fact, the idea of new economic thinking. Well, I wouldn't have had as a former economist in that subject. I wasn't very hopeful about new economic thinking. I thought of that profession is pretty far gone. Thank you. And simply an ideology to argue against government regulation or any kind of nationalization government programs, actually, on the economy. I think economics to a very large extent was has been for, you know, since Adam Smith and others saying the government keep your hands off our profits.  Anyway, yes, you are looking in ways now that give me real hope for the profession. In fact, and you now tell me, you know, you are encouraging, inspiring other people to be the same and not only to look in new ways, but I can tell you ways that I personally find very promising for my own past work, which I'd given up economists moving in that direction. Because it's a kind of critical thinking that just was not to be encouraged by the by people who fund professorships. And and and hire people to the Council of Economic Advisor. So. Good luck. Thank you. I really wish you best. Well, I will say, first of all, as I said at the outset, we will make another session together about the various dimensions of economics and your dissertation, which I just I just ordered. It hasn't been delivered yet. But I will be reading that, talking about ambiguity, talking about contexts and environments where you can't probabilistically determine. And it's on level. I think your awareness there helps you to go inward to do what is right and create self-affirming prophecies and change the probabilities that are not quantifiable to change the truth. I don't think that I never felt that my focus on decision making under uncertainty, which was my academic work, I really informed very much what I learned in the in the government and afterwards and led me to take the actions that I did. I'm just saying I experienced miraculous surprises, some of which were not so happy, you know, disasters, experience, experienced disasters that were not foreseen as you're looking at it. And the question are my previous understanding and that of my colleagues. So it's a reality. That's a reality where I find people that you are criticizing, ignoring it. It's how could they do that? But as I say, I've seen what humans can do and good and bad and the bad is really bad. Yes, yes. Well, I want to close with a couple of things. One is I want to encourage people to read the doomsday machine. And one of the most beautiful passages in the spirit of the apple doesn't fall far from the tree was when you revealed that your father had resigned as an engineer from a company because he didn't want to contribute to the nuclear buildup, which was it was a marvelous thing. I think it surprised you at the time to learn that, but it was just it was a beautiful window into what you might call some of your essence. Secondly, as I mentioned at the outset, you and I have both encountered Detroit and as I was listening to you during this session, I often get insights from musical lyrics and a protege of Stevie Wonder, who was from Detroit, is a woman named Andra Day. And her song is the favorite song of my younger daughter, Dylan. And it's called Rise Up. The lyric of the chorus is and I'll rise up. I'll rise like the day. I'll rise up. I'll rise unafraid. I'll rise up and I'll do it a thousand times again. I'll rise up, highlight the waves. I'll rise up in spite of the ache. I'll rise up and I'll do it a thousand times again for you, for you, for you. There you go. That's what you do for us, for us, for us. Thank you. And I look forward to our next conversation. Thank you, Robert. Bye-bye.