I am awake already. Nobody needs to wake me up. Good morning. How's everyone doing this Saturday? It is Saturday after the clean-a-thon, so we didn't have one of these official ones last week. My M&M supply has been replenished. Yeah, I'm coming on. Mags ate all of her M&M's. So let's see who's here. So we have Kay Lynette, Thomas, Betsy, Chris. My mom is here. Benjamin, Tommy, Karen, Hilary, hello. How is everyone doing? I know. I'm so sorry that I wasn't there on Wednesday. I had really bad car problems. And I didn't get home till basically the time the live cast would have started. But we all cried just a little bit. Just a smidge. Just a little bit. Just a smidge. So yeah, we can miserate with you, Kay. We do. Gasp. I like that. Gasp. GEDCOM Accuracy Sourcing Profiles. Gasp. I like that. I'm still drinking my coffee, everybody. Sorry. Here we go. She's not sorry. Oh, look. Mine's magical. It disappears. Maybe you should explain to us why we're looking at wanted posters of children. OK, so excuse me. For the request of Megs, I have two of my three COVID grandbabies up here. So I have Ms. Ava, who was just born recently. And I have little Miguel, who was born in February. And I love them. I love them so much. So cute. And I put up a green background. And I guess my webcam went, oh, she has a green screen up. So it threw the bricks up there. I really didn't do that. All the babies. All the babies. Love the babies. All the babies. All the babies. That's number nine and number 10. Grandchildren? Yes. Oh, you're so old. I am. I'm ancient. So we also have Steven and June pop in. And Pip is here as well. Hello? Pip kicked thumb over the source of thong, or clean of thong. What was the thong? The thong. The clean of thong. The clean of thong. The thong. So I guess we can, because we were actually talking about it before we went live, what the question of the week is. Let me share my screen. What is the question of the week anyway? The question of the week anyway is, what is your, how are you using YDNA in your research? Took a bit, but we got there. Wow. And there's 44 answers. There's really great answers. People testing older generations. But I wanted to go through. I've got a couple of slides here that I did for RootsTech real quick that I can show you. And let's see if I can do this. Do you see that? Yes. YDNA. Yeah, so the YDNA, when you do a YDNA test, it's for the patrilineal line back thousands of years. It's a direct line of men only. So it's father to son, father to son, father to son, father to son forever. And it's kind of like a no girls club. So one of the daughters.  That would be everybody in your father's family. What we're talking about when we're talking about YDNA testing is your patrilineal line only. And that is your line of fathers going down. So I just wanted to share that with you real quick. So everybody understood what the question was. And we'll get rid of that and go back to the question of the week. So lots of really great answers and not very technical answers. So even people who don't understand why DNA testing can read these answers and get some really great answers. Barry Smith shared with us a great space page where he's working on the Y lines for the paternal origins of his family. But also, it gives great information about other stuff kind of related to him, but also related to a lot of other stuff. So that's fun. So some people actually have some free space stuff going on. June Butka, just going to even hear it this morning. Yeah, she is. My brother is the oldest male in our line carrying the stern surname, keeping in mind to test the oldest generation possible. We did his YDNA and my mitochondrial DNA along with our autosomal DNA. I was looking for a supposed half brother my mother told me about. The story goes that dad was a wild child before he married her. But I still haven't found that half brother. We're so happy that you have that search going on June. So there's also not a lot of matches for him for genetic distances. So that's interesting. And one of the biggest things that June is teaching us and this is sometimes finding DNA matches is just a waiting game. Lots of other people, Jacob Walker showed us some of the places where he's been working, some of the profiles he's been working on. Getting down here, I love Marilyn Kenyon's answers. She's like, there's more than one answer on how I'm using YDNA. Number one, she uses it to break through a brick wall for her Kenyon line. When all of the other efforts were exhausted, she used it. Number two, she became a co-administrator for the Kenyon DNA project at FTDNA using YDNA to determine that there are two distinct Kenyon lines in England, which is really cool. My question to Marilyn is, is do you realize we have FTDNA group project here on WikiTree where you can put your pedigrees and tables and all sorts of stuff in free space pages? And number three, she says, today she's focused on using the big Y700 result to help us with branching and dating of SNPs, single nucleotide polymorphisms. So she's one of those geeky people who's trying to really drill down into the specifics of her family lines. So what I suggest is that people go out and they do some testing for the Y. You can't get a YDNA test at Ancestry or 23andMe. It has to be a specific Y test. And the only places where you can get Y tests are at Y6Seq and Family Tree DNA. And there is a third party website that you can upload to with your Y and your mitochondrial, and that is mitoydna.org. So it's kind of like Jedmatch, except for its Y and mitochondrial. And the old database that was available was really important for me for discovering the root of my surname, which is what YDNA told me. So go through, read all four pages of these answers. There's lots of great answers. And if you have Y and mitochondrial DNA that you're working on and you have some questions, you might find the answers in our question of the week. How about that?  We do. We absolutely do have a DNA project. But you can go with all of your DNA questions. You could. And if you go on Discord, yes, believe it or not. Max is on Discord now. I don't believe it. I've been drug into Discord. There is a DNA project discussion in Discord. And if you have questions in there, you can pop a question in. And I'll get a buzz that you've asked or one of the other people in the project will get a buzz that you've asked. And you can go in and you can answer those questions. You can get your answers. Okay, so Thomas Kerneline says that he has to admit I didn't really have much of an answer for this question. I am my paternal grandfather. And then why I tested maternal grandfather but haven't been any major discoveries. So you and your maternal grandfather would not share why DNA. So you wouldn't find anything between the two of you. But having your maternal grandfather tested for why DNA is incredibly good because then you'll be able to track down your mother's surname line forever. So that's fun. So yeah, cool. Yeah, I just, I was telling them right before which is what we were talking about. I just got my mom's. So on my mom's side, my cousin. So my maternal grandfather's line, which goes to Italy. So I'm getting that cousin tested for the why DNA which should go back to Italy. I see Chris Biriello going. Benjamin says that he's got a YDNA line that goes back to 700. And he's hoping to get YDNA done to check that line because that's fun. I have to warn you. I have to warn you. I got somebody from- Good morning, Steve. What's that? I was saying, good morning. Steve just said, hello, Steve. Hey, Steve, I got, I'm a part of a Golden Cousins Project or Facebook group and I've been trying to get more people to do more YDNA testing because I'm geeking out on it. And I talked to Cousins' brother into testing and the test came back and they're not Goldens. Oh, wow. Yeah, so be careful. My brother didn't wanna get his DNA tested but my cousin, Jim, got his YDNA. So that line is back to 1662. But we're kind of stuck on him right now. Records aren't, there's a lot of damage to the records of that era. So we're hoping to eventually get past it but right now we can't. What's the surname? Selva. Oh, okay. I didn't know. It's okay. In Canada, it's quite common for women not to take their husband's... Yeah, don't you know in Portugal we're all named Selva anyways, just well, maybe half of us. You're Portuguese. Oh my gosh, that is such a hard thing to research. I love Portuguese research. I love it, it's my favorite. Then I'm gonna be sending people to you because I have people asking about Portugal. I have a client who wanted me to do Portuguese and I said, no way. Oh, I do. I should send her to you. Yeah, I do Portuguese. All right, great. Well, that's it for the question of the week. Go and check everything out. It's a lot of fun. There you go, Sarah, short and sweet. Yes, my mom says that we have to get my dad's too. Yes, we do. I have to convince my dad to get it. We're working on that. We are. Gotta get my father. Okay. So I have to test your father. You're gonna put some Spanish mulls in his test when you send it in. Okay. So now let's go to the next segment of art. Let me tell you, I kind of missed the normal Saturday last week because I like looking at the photos and the profiles. So I did kind of miss that last week. Okay, so this week, before I actually begin, if any of you actually notice, we did have more people in the connection finder than usual. So we expanded it because we know everybody's been so excited to get their suggestions for the profiles of the week. The projects have been really coming together and improving these profiles. We really wanted to honor all of these suggestions. So if you know, we have 11 people this week. And I don't know the max that we can do now but it usually was nine, 10 plus the member of the week. So we'd have 10 people in the connection finder but now we have 12. So that's awesome. So are you okay? It's hot. Are you okay? You're mapping again. Oh, oh, oh. Well, I had counted before, 11, it was 11. So, okay. So this week, Steve says DNA testing is on his task list for 2021. Yeah, the comments aren't catching up to us yet. That's okay.  So he's like the only, dad get my dad. Mip, have you joined a DNA group project? That would be my question. That may help you get across the pond. Past the pond. So this week we are featuring medical innovators. Our main profile being Louis Pasteur. So let's go ahead and open him up. Hold on, I'm struggling. Okay. So Louis Pasteur was born in France in 1822, died in 1895. He was regarded as one of the three main founders of bacteriology and is popularly known as the father of microbiology. He created the first vaccines for rabies and anthrax and he's best known to the general public for his invention of the technique of treating milk and wine to stop bacterial contamination, a process now called pasteurization. Hence his last name. That's pretty cool. I think that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. So this is our main profile of the week and we have nine, 10 others that are joining him. Medical innovators. The next one on our list is Alexander Wood. Born in 1817 in Scotland and died in 1844, 1884, a Scottish physician. He invented the first true hypodermic syringe and Alexander was awarded the designation FRSE, which means he's a member of the Fellowship, the Royal Society of Edenburg. So that's pretty cool as well. He has his background because he's since, I wonder if he wore a kilt like Pitt. I just think it's a beautiful background. I like it when the kilts are in the background. Mm-hmm. Next we have. Through the tartan. I am sharing my screen, right guys? Yeah. No, why? No, yeah, we're just kidding. Excuse me. Just want to make, I thought I was making sure. So next on our list, Dr. Solomon Fleur II, pioneering African American physician and psychiatrist born in Liberia in 1872, died in Boston, Massachusetts in 1953. He studied psychiatry in Munich. And in 1919, he joined the faculty in Boston University of Medicine where he continued to make significant contributions to the study of Alzheimer's disease. Now he's cool. Next we have Sir Frederick Grant Banting. Died in, oh, wow, born in Canada in 1891. And also died in Canada in 1941. Dr. Best, he began his research for the cure for diabetes, their experiments. Now him and Dr. Best began to research the cure for diabetes and their experiments led to the discovery of insulin. In 1923, Banting was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for Physiology and Medicine, youngest man to receive the Nobel in Medicine. He was also knighted in 1934 and he died in a plane crash in Newfoundland in 1941. That's my closest one at 19 degrees. Yeah, please let us know in the comments who we most closely connected to. No, it's not this one. Oh, Banting. Banting. And then Dr. Charles, well him and Dr. Charles Best. 2020 for me, but he's my closest. He and Joseph Leester. And he's probably my closest too because whoever you guys are most closely connected to, I usually am as well. Next on our list, Dr. Virginia Apgar. Born in New Jersey in 1909, died in New York in 1974. In 1938, she was the director division of anesthesia, which was not yet recognized as a medical specialty in that time. She investigated the causes of infant mortality in the first 24 hours to identify trends that could distinguish infants in trouble. This work led to the creation in 1952 of a standardized scoring system to assess a newborn's health after birth known as the Apgar score. It is still used around the world as an important tool for the obstetric practice. And in 1949, she and the first woman full professor at Columbia University. And she has a very nice biography. You guys want to, I always, I mean, I, like I always say, learning every, 30 new things every time I look at all these profiles. We have after Virginia, we have Wilhelm, in Toven, born in the Netherlands in 1860 and died in 1927. He was a Dutch doctor and physiologist. He invented the first practical electrocardiogram or the ECG or EKG in 1903. And he received the Nobel Prize in medicine in 1924 for the discovery of the mechanism of the electrocardiogram. Oh, look, there's his print. Who did this? Was this Thomas who put in the, I noticed he was talking about putting the pronunciations. Let's see if it works. Do you guys hear that? Or no? No. Oh man. Well, the link takes you to a thing. It said Wilhelm van Toven. Yeah, that's what it said. Wilhelm van Toven. That's how he pronounces his name according to that. That's super cool. We should definitely have that on every single profile, the saying, especially the heart. He was pointing that out in like the word Nobel Peace Prize. That was the Nobel Peace Prize. It's not a Nobel Prize. Not for being noble? No. It just stuck in my head. No bell. Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Megs. I struggle sometimes. You're welcome. We love listening to you struggle. We do. It's one of your most endearing qualities. Next on our list is Professor Frederick Hollows, born in New Zealand in 1929 and died in Australia in 1993. He became known for his work in restoring eyesight for thousands of people living in poverty in Australia and many other countries. And it is estimated that more than two and one half million tuna in the world can see today because of his initiatives and that instigated by him. So ophthalmologist in Australia. That's great. I'd love to be alive right now because they're doing genetic engineering now to repair eyesight for people. That's pretty cool using CRISPR technologies. We have Joseph Lister. I like all these. So the expanding also the connection of Finder gets a lot more variety of people from different countries, from races, and they have the women and the men and the fields. I think it's great. We have all these projects working and getting these profiles ready to be presented and be on the connection of Finder. It is so cool. So next we have Joseph Lister. Sir Joseph Lister, first baron Lister. He was born in 1827, died in 1912 in England. Lister experimented with surgical incisions and dressings dipped in carbolic acid and revolutionized surgical practices such as washing hands before an operation. The theory of germs causing disease led to asphyx surgery or surgery completely free of disease causing microorganisms. So thank you, Joseph Lister, for washing hands, for making everybody wash their hands before surgery. Yes, yes, thank you very much. Thank you, Joseph. Yes. And for keeping everybody so safe during COVID when we... Yes, definitely.  No, it's been hard to not touch my face so it's just a habit I have, so that's been hard. So next on our list, Florence Nightingale, born in Italy in 1920 and died in England in 1910. Florence Nightingale was a celebrated English social performer and staffed statistician and the founder of modern nursing. She came to prominence while serving as a nurse during the Crimean War where she tended to wounded soldiers. She's known as the lady with the lamp after her habit of making rounds at night. Nightingale's theories were hugely influential and her concerns for sanitation, military health and hospital planning established practices which are still in existence today. Why isn't she in my list of matches? She's not? She should be, but it's out of order. She was up after Joseph was here. I see her, I see her, got it. It's a list that's on GTGs out of, you know, not the same order. It's not the same order on your profile. 22. Thank you. Next we have Edward Jenner. He's probably close some of the tabs, so we can move it a little well. So Dr. Edward Jenner, born 1749 and died in 1823 in England. He was an English physician and scientist who was the pioneer of the smallpox vaccine. Also called the father of immunology and the smallpox vaccine was the world's first vaccine. So thank you, Edward, Edward Jenner for creating the first vaccine and getting, you know, smallpox pretty much. Eradicated. Betsy Kell is closest to him, 22. Last on our list, we have Jane Wright. Born in 1919 in New York and died in 2013 in New Jersey. She's known for the development of chemotherapies and she is the Kell founder of the American Society of Clinical Oncology. Very cool. I absolutely do not see her in my list. I am actually 50 degrees from her, which is impressive, because that just shows you how far back up the tree it went and how far back down it came, 50. I've never had one like that. Betsy, well, maybe she's probably newly connected then in that, like, let's see. Let's see who I'm most close to connected to. It may be that I don't have that part of my branches really fleshed out to one of my French lines. I am. So 40 degrees from Louis Pasteur. Looks like I'm closest to Virginia and Frederick. Same here, 21 degrees. Yeah, I don't see Jane either. She's Jane Jones on that. Oh, Jane Jones, 40 degrees. Okay, there we go, there she is. 48 degrees. 47. Thank you for fixing that for me, Mindy. Anytime. Yeah, then 21 degrees from Frederick Banting, always through my paternal grandmother. Why are we congratulating Greg, Thomas? I don't know. Is there something going on? They have their COVID shots. Oh, okay, good for you. I guess this kind of ties into a theme this week. Handwashing, vaccinations and tests, so yes. Yes, so let's see. Who else? So, Hilary said, I don't know if you guys said it, 58 from Jane Jones. Yeah, people, it seems maybe Jane Jones only really has like one kind of line done. So I guess we need to get her more connections. Yeah, we need to get her fleshed out. Yeah, she's one of the more recent, more modern profiles of the bunch. So let's do it, guys. I was pretty far from Lewis as well. Go flesh her out as long as you're not part of my challenge team, go flesh her out. Oh, I stopped sharing, but those were our profiles of the week, go read them, learn something, see how you're connected. And what I like to do too is, when I have time, is I like to look at the connections and see where my line goes and make sure that line is accurate. Making sure all the connections are there, they're all sourced, at least for my direct line. If you have time to do the full tread, go ahead. But I like to make sure that all of the connections are correct, making our tree accurate. And it is the year of accuracy, so. Okay, so let's go look at the photos. My favorite part of the week, this week's theme was wedding. We missed last week's week, which was birthday. That was a pretty fun one. If you guys didn't see last week's, I would go and check them out on your own. So wedding, we have, oh, we have 70 images, guys. Are we ready? Okay, I won't take as long as I usually do because we have 70, so I'll be a little quick. So I'll only open a really good one. So they're all really good, but if we really need to see the neat gritty details, we'll open them. That was a full wedding party. I like that. And we have Thomas, chef for St. Crispin, and Florence Mae Melton on their wedding day. I also be cool to see all the different styles of wedding dresses throughout the years. A double wedding and a newspaper article. That's cool. We have a wedding portrait, just holding some flowers. Last name of shepherd, Pip, is this yours? It might just be a coincidence, but no. Yeah, it was a coincidence. Are you connected to this shepherd, Pip? John and Mary wedding. Ooh, I like that, it's like kind of like a crown. Cute. Oh, that's cute. You have the flower girl, or maybe flower girls. Yeah. They're sharing the dootie. I like her, I'm blanking on the thing that goes on the head. The veil. I don't know if there's another term for the really fancy ones, but veil all together in general. Well, Lexis, and Ray Van Meter. June says she has a photo of a Quaker wedding dress. My daughter and lost family. Wedding day for Teddy and Joe. Aw, they look really happy. So we have wedding of- Yeah, that's awesome. Wedding of Donald Mabel Markett. Mark Hurt? No, Mark Hurt. Okay. Wedding of Jordan, Gordon and Joan. Oh, I like her dress. I'm gonna zoom in on that one. With her veil, very flowy and long. Harry and Clarice Ireland wedding. That one looks like it's been colorized, at least to my eye. I do like her bouquet. It's just blowing out. So we have wedding of Gordon Bauer Sutton and Olive Ethel Wright Angle. That's cute. A lot of big sun hats. Harper and Marley's Rose wedding photo. Oh, yes, I saw that June happy belated anniversary. Steve, you can add it right now. I'm probably will pop up. If you add your photo right now. I know Chris has done that a couple of times. Added it last minute. Wedding photo of Christopher Pasco Hill and Elizabeth Ritting Oldfield. Donald has a good question. Is there a way to connect a man and a woman who produce a child by, but we're not married. Yeah, the child is, child and living adult. Whoa, child is and living adult, woman younger than me. I would prefer not to add a living person. I mean, you can have them as father and mother on his profile, but then I think there's an option when you add the spouse to not show the mother. I don't know if I'm saying this right. There's an option to like say that we're not. There's an option to say they want to be married. To not show up as a marriage, but also for her profile if she's living, you can leave her, it will, should leave her as unlisted anyways. If she doesn't have her own account. Let me see if I can show. I don't want to connect biologically, but you can say that the confirmation status. I'm gonna show real quick. It should be, you should be able to, that was here. Where is that? Now I have to go find it. I thought it was on this little marriage edit field. Yeah, I thought so too. Maybe removing the marriage would do that, but leave them connected to the child, but I don't want to try that. I'm not a hundred percent, but I know there's a way. I think this is it. I'm trying to find you the one that we have on this tree. And Benjamin has a good point here, is that an unmarried couple would be connected by the child. So you don't have to designate a relationship. But I think once you do that, it does automatically add them as spouses on wiki tree. But I think if you do that remove marriage, I think it removes them from being spouses. I'm gonna give you a link in our, yeah. Because we had to do that on this challenge week. Oh, okay. Oh, for Connie's week. Okay. Where are you sending? I sent it in the team room. Oh, okay. Okay, so Steven says after the marriage is added, you edit the marriage. Right. Okay, so is this the child and the parents? Yeah, now, now click on the father and you'll see that it doesn't show him with a spouse. Mm. So they had, so he has a child and the mom and the father do not have that spouse listed. So did you guys edit it on the? Steve's right. You go into it once you have both the parents added. You go in and edit the marriage just like you would change the date or anything else and right, you ask it not to show it on the profile. Well, I thought it was here, but I guess it's now remove marriage instead of don't show. I would assume that is the case because I know it was a different wording before, but I guess it, the changes. So I think it's remove marriage. Don't quote me on that. That sounds correct to me. Let me just see what happens. This week on Stump Sarah. What? I said this week on Stump Sarah. So that should be the way. So you add both the parents and then remove the marriage unless somebody corrects me, but that's what I think. Okay. This is an oops. Where is it showing on, just do not display Steve. I didn't see that. I might, do I need to, do I need to try again? Is it in the edit? Now I'm, now I need to, I don't know. Okay, we'll just keep going. Richard and Eliza shaking hands. Holding hands. That's interesting. Holding hands. It looks like kind of like a very, very formal, I guess. Hand holding. Cute. That is pretty cute. They're, oh, shepherdesses. That's really cute. Lots of cute photo. I wish it was, I'm so pixelated. If I do like that, I think it's cute one. Okay. That's an offer. Okay. For living people, I see. So I guess the remove them. Hi, Lish. Remove marriages for deceased people and the do not show is for living people. Did I get that right? Cute. He looks so young in this picture. Feels pretty young too. Oh, that's them again. Kathleen Thompson. Oh, the same couple that are kissing in the picture above that's pixelated. Oh, really? Oh, it's cute. I like that. This looks like a fun wedding. Doing Vicki's wedding party. How do you cute? Did they go to Virginia City in Nevada? Oh, it says it was in Pirate, Texas. We have a whack and pack on wedding day. I guess it's abbreviated their names. And then with the best man, Ed Strain. Maggie and Lynne. Cute. Oh, there's this again. That same one. That one looks better. No. I disagree. No, I'm just saying it's not as pixelated as the other one. Mary's wedding. I mean, I have a wedding photo right here that I could have. I'll show it real quick of my dad's parents. How cute. That's actually a good one. I always forget to upload stuff. Even though they're right here on my desk. That, I really like this one. She looks very pretty with her flowers and then she has her little flower girl. I like that. Wesley Gordon-Stevens and Elaine McAllister wedding. That's a cute one. I like her little hat veil. Well, Margie's wedding and the little boy holding her veil. That's cute. Nice. Mm-hmm. We did it. Lots of unfortunate there's writing on it. What's a, I like that photo. It's cute. Florence Middleton and Glover Young. It's a cute one too. Milton, Mary's Ethel. That looks like it's cut like they cut out. Yeah. Also same one, but colorized from a little Smith-Rayer wedding. He looks like he's a sailor in the Marshall Islands. Where is that? Where is Marshall Islands? And for me. 1911. Someone wants to do some Googling and tell me where Marshall Islands is. I'd like to know. It's now Pacific. Oh, but they said something about being specific. That's cute one. I guess they just got married in there walking out of the church. I like that one too. Cute, so many cute ones. Maddox wedding. And let's open that up so we can see it a little bit better. Lots of good pictures. I like her bouquet is very big too. Big bouquet. They're all holding pretty big bouquets. Yeah. Ladies. Wow, that's a big bouquet. Mm-hmm. I like her dress too. I like seeing all the dresses. I'm enjoying this. And the Congo. That's cute. I like that. That's fun. They're about to drive off to their honeymoon after the wedding. With their just married thing, I can just see it dangling along the road. That's cute one. I'm just kind of leaning up against table. Yeah, I just got married. Oh, they're inspecting their car before they... I think they're putting the top up. I guess maybe it's about to rain and they want, or they're putting it down so they can flow in the wind. It could be, who knows? I don't know. We could flip a coin. What does everybody think? What are, we're placing bets. Putting it on or taking it off? Oh, this one's a little bit damaged, but it's a cute photo. Like they're outfits. Okay, I like that one. I guess he's in his uniform. He's putting it down. Pressing the latch, lock it. That does make sense, but I wanted to place some bets. The Jaguar. The Jaguar? That was somebody's... Oh, I do like this one. That one's cute. In Indiana. I like these big wedding party ones. Everybody together and take a photo. Schooly wedding day. Rafael Villallos and Carmen Molina Salazar. Good, really good with that one. Well, that's Spanish. I do know how to do those. The Hispanic names. Roe Lanning and Virginia Kirk Wedding Party. Oh, that's a cute one. Hello, little girl. That's cute. It was an Indo... I guess that's Indonesia, I'm assuming. From my... Just using my powers of deduction. Chong Wedding. Oh, they're having a band. That's probably not the right word, but it's a band playing. Orchestra? Quartet? Quartets? There we go. Oh, tired after the day. Finally, probably got a break away from the guests and they're taking a little breather. That's a cute one. Tini McLaughlin and Lucy LeGrand. Just real kind of looking at this photo here. It doesn't look like it's a white dress, so... I don't know. Looks like it has patterns. Interesting. I bet that's not a wedding dress. I bet that's the regular picture of the young couple. Maybe. Edith Green and George McElroy. Man, let's take so many photos. We're almost out of time. Yeah. Let's see. Maybe we should continue to scroll through as Mindy tells us about our challenge week. Oh, she kind of told us we had a non-marriage thing that we were looking at. What happens? Well, we all have those instances in that tree. And I can't give away any secrets, but I will tell you that our brick walls down already is more than is on my hand. So... More than that. More than that. We're having a stellar week. That's awesome. And if you guys, you know, you're able to watch Wednesday. You know, it is recorded. It's on YouTube and Facebook. If you wanted to go watch it. And then on Wednesday, we'll have our wrap up for Connie and we're kicking off Scott Fisher, correct? Or next week? Yes. With Connie, we actually wound up revisiting North Carolina, though. I can say that. So the week before, her whole tree was North Carolina. Just a section of Connie's, but... That's the last photo. Well, that, I'm excited. I'm excited to see the wrap up and see what everybody found. And never been working really hard. I haven't had a chance to really look at much this week. But I probably will probably dive in over the weekend. And... Yep, I'm hoping more people can stop in on the weekend. We still have plenty of brick walls out there. Listed that people can work on. Maybe I can get a bounty coin. Who knows, maybe not. So who are we working on this week in case people don't know? We are working on Connie Knox's tree. And it's really been interesting. She has, her paternal side is North Carolina and Denmark. Her maternal side, though, is Virginia, West Virginia, US state. So plenty of places. Once again, for people to go work on if they're worried about seeing that Denmark on there, there's a lot in the US and some of it that's over in England. So it's been fun finding out these new branches, new ancestors. Nice. Yeah, and Connie is from Genealogy TV.  And we'll have her on live again. It's gonna be at 8 p.m. Eastern time. Our wrap up for Connie. And kicking off for Scott. We're officially going into our fifth month of the challenge and it's May. It's May 1st today. Yay. First day of the month. Woo! Happy May Day. Yep. Woo, May Day. I just continue to be impressed by everything our community can do.  Yeah, showing the world what we're all about. And every single one of our guest stars have been thoroughly impressed. And it's been awesome. So let's keep it going and we'll see. You are able to, are people able to still register for May, Mindy, or no? For May, they can, until May 7th. Until May 7th, you can still register for May. And here's our lineup for May. We have Scott Fisher. Devando Lee. I lied, it's May 5th. May 5th, so the Wednesdays. Yeah, so when, when Scott's kicks off. That gives us a couple of extra days of buffer into the month. Nathan Dillon, good one. And Jenna, Gina, Filibert Ortega. Our May lineup, how exciting. I am just finishing up Nathan Dillon's newest book. Yeah, he has a whole bunch of crime, genealogy, crime novels. Chester Creek Myrrh. And I will say that we're gonna see the new face as a captain for next week. So we tune in and find out who it is that's captaining Scott Fisher's week. Yay. Oh man. So the kickoff wrap up for Scott is Cinco de Mayo. Uh-oh. Everybody bring a corona. Bring it and a lime. Or just a margarita. Did you not get my whole joke about bringing a corona? Yes, we got it, Meg. Oh, geez. We got it. Okay. Well, choosing to, I was more thinking of Tequila anyway.   So that's one of the other questions about the challenge or anything we talked about. We will probably go and we will see you guys on Wednesday at 8 p.m. Eastern time and next Saturday at 10 a.m. Eastern time. I hope everybody has a wonderful week and wonderful May. I hope, and yeah, we will see you then. Goodbye, friends.


We stand in the shadow of a building that costs 180 million dollars, 180 million dollars. It will provide expanded service in a variety of ways. But the heart and the soul of this building are the people that work in it. The nurses, the physicians, the allied health professionals. They are the ones who give this hospital its unique place in the hearts of the people who live in this part of British Columbia. That's why I believe there is such affection and such support and such passion for the Vernon Jubilee Hospital. So it's a very exciting day for us to be handing over this beautiful new building, the Paulson Tower. And it's an immensely important day in the life of the interior of British Columbia. It's overwhelming to be a part of this occasion and I'm still on baby brain time. So I don't think that the scope of it will definitely sink in until a few years when Amelia is big enough for me to talk to her about the story of her being the first baby born here. I want to come clean. A few people have asked, were we given anything to appear here and to speak in front of the public? And I have to say yes, we did get something. They gave us a healthy baby and that's all we wanted.


Hey everyone, in this video I want to talk to you about trading options for small accounts. Now this is a question that I get a lot from members and students at Navigation Trading and the question is can I be successful trading a small account or should I just wait till I save up more money or start trading when I get a larger account? And the answer is you absolutely can be successful trading a small account. We have a lot of members who have smaller accounts that continue to have consistent success all the way up to members who have seven figure million dollar accounts who are having success. So you can absolutely be successful with a small account. Now can larger accounts take advantage of more opportunities? Yeah, absolutely. So traders with smaller accounts just have to be more disciplined in their trading. So the other thing is if you're successful trading a small account then you'll be extremely successful when your account is larger. And the cool thing is the success that you have trading will run over to other things in your life. You'll have a positive effect to if you're in business or your career with your relationships, with your friends and your family they're all going to grow when you have success trading. And it's kind of funny because now I kind of relate everything in my life to trading and everything in probabilities and statistical outcomes. So with my rental properties when I'm buying a rental property I'll try to figure out what the probability of success will be with that specific property and it's really help me mentally evaluate different risk versus return things. You know when my kids kind of get mad at me because sometimes they'll ask me a question and I'll respond with saying that's a very low probability of chance of that happening. They kind of shake their head because they know it's a trading analogy that I'm about to share with them. But it will truly help you in every other aspect of your life. So when it comes to small accounts kind of what we classify as a small account at navigation trading is $25,000 or less. And when it comes to trading a small account and this really goes for any size account but really specifically for small accounts is that the position size that you take your trades on is key. So there's going to be certain high price stocks and ETFs and futures that may be too big for you to trade and do not trade them because eventually it will come back to bite you. And I know this from personal experience so if there's a stock or ETF and it's going to take up too much capital relative to your account size you have to pass on that trade. Do not take that trade. You may get lucky once or twice or three times but you're in this for the long run. Do not take those trades because eventually it will come back to bite you and if you incur a huge loss in your account it's going to not only affect what you can do trading going forward but it's going to affect your mental vision of trading and how that affects you going forward so just don't do it.  You have to let the probabilities play out. So let's talk first about position sizing and I've created this chart that shows you based on your account value how much you can allocate to each trade. So the maximum a maximum percentage that you can allocate to anyone trade is five percent okay you've got to internalize that and you've got to take that serious when you're making your own trades. Now personally I stick to the one percent or two percent or sometimes even smaller range in my account. Now I trade a larger account so that's easy for me to do it's not as easy when you have a smaller account so you have to be way more picky on the trades that you take. So if you've got a five thousand dollar account and you're looking at the one percent range you can only risk fifty dollars. Now that's a pretty hard thing to find when we're trading the option strategies that we teach at navigation trading so you are going to have to go up a little bit higher allocation when you have that smaller account. Now as your account grows you can grind down the allocation to a lower percentage and I would say if at all possible you want to try to stay in that one to three percent range but absolutely never go over five percent. So if you for example if you have a trade that you can get into for and let's say you have a twenty thousand dollar account let's say there's a trade that you can get into with one contract for three hundred dollars okay you should go ahead and do just one contract stay in that lower percentage of your account allocation. If you do two contracts you'll be up to six hundred and so forth and so on but really try to stay as small as possible regardless of your account size especially starting off until you really understand fully and have traded through many market cycles so that you understand exactly the nuances and everything that can happen within a trade. The goal is to hit singles and doubles and live to trade another day every day that the market opens is going to be a new opportunity for trading okay so don't you can't feel like you're in a hurry and you've got to trade bigger because you want to make money quicker everybody wants to make money quicker but you've got to trade small especially starting out and especially with a small account size to make sure that you can grow that account consistently and that gets us to the next next point which is long-term consistency you know the probabilities of your trades will play out over time okay but it takes a lot of trade so you know at at navigation trading most of our trades are around a probability of success of an average of let's say around 70 percent it's about 71 percent so over time we're going to be right on about 70 percent of our trades however in the short term that's not always going to be that's not always going to be the case think about this if you flip a coin 10 times will it always produce five heads and five tails of course not okay even though the the probabilities of a coin flip or 50 50 it's not always going to happen in that short period of time so sometimes traders forget that whole statistic and they you know they take 10 trades and seven of them are losers and they and they stop trading or they think oh the strategy doesn't work and they switch to a new strategy and they try to go find something else but really they didn't let their probabilities play out over you have to create hundreds sometimes thousands of trades to let to let the probabilities play out the option models and the pricing of options is so accurate over over extended periods of time and over extended numbers of occurrences but you have to let those probabilities play out if you can internalize this fact and and if you can really make it a practice in your trading in your mental mind state of trading every single day and with a small account you can become consistently profitable if you'd like to learn more about the different strategies that we use to make consistent returns come see us at navigationtrading.com we've got a ton of free resources including the navigation watch list which is a list of the most profitable symbols to trade for each type of strategy we've got the volatility indicator which you've seen on my charts you can download this directly to your thinkorswim trading platform and we've got a free options course called trading options for income which is a step-by-step guide to get you making consistent trades right away we look forward to seeing you there


All right, cyber traders welcome on back here this post Christmas afternoon meeting this Monday, December 27th Shortly after a 230 Eastern time great to see Ari great to see Norman are you just locked up a really nice trade on the M bot stock We got up on the screen here great to see all of us Otherwise though joining us live inside the cyber group trading room or if you're joining us back on social media Facebook live or YouTube so, you know, we got to go quick here on two accounts Really, we haven't talked about Bitcoin since suppose it Wednesday last week really, you know, we're off on Friday So I want to just go over that at the end But I want to go through things quick because we have the phase two stock course lined up this afternoon So at three o'clock Eastern time continuing on with the phase two course curriculum lesson number two We're gonna continue our talk on time and sales. So, you know specifically in relation to going short So who knows what's gonna happen? I don't know why M bot is on Sticker here. That should be the spy I was about to say who knows what will happen heading into the close here We might happen to see a bit of a slip, you know, if the highs going into the afternoon Maybe that could provide in a short opportunity. We'll see. Yeah, it's hard to fight that shred though But you know, we'll see what we can add to our watch list going into the afternoon and bot on our screen to begin You know just popped right now ran from eight up towards just about 890 and right now The volume has been dropping off minute by minute. So to me, it needs the bus to move quick Otherwise, I feel like it's gonna bust right back down. So, you know, you know, I'm not fully committed to this yet Even it's very volatile very, you know active during a lot of volume per minute still Albeit like I said, the volume was kind of dropping off for a moment here Could this be the big pop? Is this about a bus to move? It's filled a order 875 or tried to break over this order 875 All right, maybe it's trying to prove me wrong. I'll slip it on our list. I guess for right now It's volatile enough turning enough volume. So I'll put it on the back end, you know, just for right now We'll come back to this at the end of it all All right, so we'll see what else we got here thus far for any of the other big move Movers will end up just kind of commenting on them pretty briefly, you know Hey for any one of us live inside cyber group last traders talk of the calendar year tomorrow So if there's any trades from today be it the PYR and bot etc. Etc. You know where to find me I hope you're right here live inside this trading room tomorrow morning Sit over any trades that you would want me to actually review in full You know as we typically do a traders talk right over to my email address, all right Pyr to begin, you know, it looks like you got hold to a couple of times on the way up If not maybe just once but ended up failing to break higher started to go the other way and right now Not a whole lot happening here on the chart The FT FT trade this one ended up surprising me and this one's still pretty close to the highs You know again the volume has been dropping off across the last you know hour hour and a half really But ended up making a nice higher high So I feel like right now it needs to really get going otherwise I feel like this could be the end of the road no harm though and us putting this on our main watch list Just to begin, you know more of a level one stack level one maybe level two Good intro stack your tight spread really good liquidity on the order book and Just the only question you got to ask is for how much it already moved up today How much more can it keep going so you know if it's not now then if it doesn't completely tank from here And it just kind of coasts for the next hour then certainly by 330 you better expect this thing to or this thing better Be making a move. Otherwise, it's just not worth it Another one with a second wind type of move here the AVCT stock ended up making a really good move upon the market opening up You know popped it first ended up making higher lows higher highs once it broke over 240 And then from there took off just and I know if I was to hit the nail on the head with this too You called it out spot on you know ended up calling out the resistance on the offer right off of a 275 on the ask that that is so ended up Topping off right there and order stacked up on top of it after that point and from there that this thing just came Right back down so you know you would like to think it's not gonna make this type of move up again It did well, you know, it's more of a teaser right now than anything kind of same line of thinking as the embot stock But at least then bots more volatile in the sense of providing maybe a quick scalp trade You know with this I just don't know yet So I'm more reluctant on this than the in bot and for right now. I'll kind of put this on the side Ah familiar name SPRB right SPRB from last week ended up making a big move today Ended up popping not right out the gate But ended up breaking higher off of four heading into the mid-to-leaf morning from there while we were in class Rich was calling us out and I turned over to this trade quickly at the time We weren't gonna trade it of course while long-class, but it's just to say we caught it at the wrong time It wasn't moving at the time and probably right after we turned away from it did it end up making the big pops so Right place wrong time. I reckon but SPRB right now same rules apply ended up making a big move up already It's not you're the highs so I'm not as keen to watch it thus far See if there's anything else are you alive earlier today same thing nice pop at least from the morning This was a dead ducked a huge disappointment on CEI today, you know familiar name, right? So for any one of us that traded CEI back like you know a few months ago Then you certainly hope to see this type of activity in pre-market, right? I mean this is a goldmine because if he did well on it, you know Why not or what if you did well on it? Why trade anything else? You know, so you might be more inclined to follow this and that this thing just offered next to nothing I mean didn't make a squeak of a move back up here from one broke under and over a dollar moved up But we in a long time for that. That's for sure. All right. Keep it going. We keep it moving here And this Boyle ETF is like up so much right now just in relation to where it's at Yeah, it's completely taken off right now. I saw it off of 2850 going into the meeting So I didn't know exactly where it was at this time and well only pushed up much higher So yeah, this is an ETF folks So listen, I'm gonna put this on our list given the trend, you know It's within our price range to a degree and no order book isn't that bad So if you are more of an ETF trader If you're someone who knows how to train ETF or uses different indicators aside from level 3 Then I then give it a shot But otherwise though if that doesn't apply to you then I would say that using level 3 to trade an ETF in general Whether it be Boyle UVX Y which we trade more than anything anything really Or like VIX whatever, you know, it's extremely difficult to apply level 3 to Trading eat those ETFs. It's just very more. It's much more difficult to locate the iceberg orders in total It blend in much better All right, so we keep it going Boyle for right now We'll put on our list here at least for those that want to trade it APT a little slow I ended up making a new high earlier, but fizzled back down. It was like a bit of an ugly shake actually Four familiar name the stock ended up making a big move for us. I think during the pandemic, right? Probably during the recovery right here. Oh, no, that was 21. I can get quick sec See if we can go back there we go So during the pandemic we ended up trading this bore stack It's it's a drilling stack oil drilling stack. There were a couple of others to WLL bore OAS if I'm not mistaken, you know, these huge pops here So familiar name just not really doing a whole lot right now near the highs. I reckon but I Don't know. I'm not really treating a whole lot of volume per minute for me. All right I feel like there's a lot on the gainer side here today. There's just a lot up with the market So a EHR trying to make a move back up to its all-time highs back that back that it set from early to mid November here you're following the stock really across the summer break all-time highs often like 16 I think it was back then I don't know for right now same thing Just there's not a whole lot of trades right now folks heading into the end of the year That looked that great moving like on a really strong trend up You know, there might be some stocks that are very heavily shorted across the calendar year that are getting a bit of a push up You know, we thought that was the case on EECLA this morning and oh man that that thing went the complete other way, unfortunately, so CO DX nice pop from earlier again just ended up coming back down though Not a whole lot happening here on the chart for right now XXI I forgot about this one briefly Choppy all right, we'll hop over to the losers list folks. We'll see if there's anything looking just as good If not better, I reckon I guess I'd check out GRTX first So I'm gonna jinx myself by not checking this out Not a whole lot going on there either. All right Man talk about stocks that don't come back this BBIO same thing that happened on the ALLK from last week You know, you hope to see a stock down 70 80 90 percent like that one was last week You know for that to make some sort of short-lived run-up as the shorts cover dead cap bounce type of play You know, I guess you ended up seeing a small squeeze up from like 11 30 ish 11 25 up a dollar. That's it So not a whole lot really happened on the street.  I don't know if anyone can hold hold their breath that long All right, keep it going and Vax down big Pretty expensive though seal of yes down big this one's more than our price range But it's like watching the grass grow on the way down there Folks, I think that's just about it for me Just about to go into a crypto land for a quick second If there's anything else up down left right more than a 5% that you would want me to check out Just type it in the chat board for all of a sudden social media that is and for all of us in cyber group, too You don't want to force any stocks on our watch list here at this point. We got two stocks and an ETF That's it. All right, so I'll bring up big Bitcoin pretty quick So we last talked about it when was even Friday, right? It was Wednesday the 22nd cheese almost a week ago Lot goes on and over a week's time So this is where we were back on Wednesday last week Nice pop up as I was hoping not to say anticipating But you know, you were anticipating if anything for these moving averages on my six-hour chart You know just go back to that last meeting and I was saying the same thing You know for the 200 and 500 EMAs to hold as resistance initially So most recently I'm gonna jump to the hour chart here Because I ended up jumping out on some positions that I was in in anticipation of a pullback right Year on this last second to last bar as it ended up closing under this peak I ended up getting out and you know, I still have a lot You know, I got out on like play money that that is so you know in terms of how much I have in total And Bitcoin and I'm still holding on or hodling as they say to a large amount But it's just a large mouth You know what I mean just to say, you know a large portion of my portfolio holding on investing Whereas you know using some play money to trade trade around with so that money I ended up getting out with right around here as it peaked off There's a closed from under this last peak and I'm gonna buy back much cheaper If it ends up pulling back a little bit closer give it a day or so I think it ends up pop it back up Maybe I just jump right back in with that play money. We'll see but you know pretty much It ended up moving up right up towards the moving averages ahead on the six hour graph and from here I'd anticipate a little bit of a pullback shake Keep your eyes on the trend line that was building pretty nicely up off the lows here since December 20th That'll be something something to watch Brian says wondering why BTBT is getting hit so hard. I'll tell you what at this point That's some one. I Don't care. I got out under nine and I took a loss for it You know, I was in from average price. It was like 1060 or 1062 At first 11 added more over nine, but then once it broke under nine literally the next day I got out So very happy with at least getting out where I did could have been way worse in the grand scheme I ended up using part of that money though to put into play money for crypto So part of the money I'm part of the money. I'm actually referencing from crypto that I got out of is the BTBT funds Earnings out today. I don't have a list of earnings out for today Kevin I would assume the list out for earnings would be would be thin just because we're still in holiday season If you're asking if it's BTBT and specific. I I don't know I don't know that answer. Unfortunately All right, I think that just about does it though folks Time I was flapped my gums about Bitcoin not a whole lot has happened. It seems like at least I don't see any other call Out to cross YouTube or Facebook live or across the cyber group room Just gonna check Benzinga Pro pretty quickly here Make it pretty good use on time Yeah, I don't see anything else that looks that great folks that are like you're the highs breaking new highs right now No familiar names that are coming across my radar. All right, that's just about does it I think that we're just about good folks for all of a sudden on Facebook live or YouTube I appreciate you sticking with me each and every day each and every afternoon If you are a new attendee joining our afternoon meeting here I always like to place my email in the comments Josh at c2 trading calm any questions any comments any Not to say concerns, but any feedback that you may have with cyber training University or just these meetings in general Just if you're looking to learn more if you're more than free to send over a quick email If you've been watching these meetings and are ready to join us live just to continue the audio commentary for today For this week and maybe heading into the into the new year You don't have to start today. You could actually you know start get the trial today and Delay it to begin going into next week heading into the new year You could do that by going right down to the link on the banner below the stream there just to get yourself signed up But no problem at all Grant and Kevin and Leda and Brian and and all of us otherwise Listen, not a big list not a big list thus far folks Three tickers two stocks one ETF so really for most of us just too so far what that means is don't force anything out There you know the deal if there's anything that makes a real pop something that you know Would be a great call out and call it out if not though If it's like a little tiny, you know, maybe potentially hold off on it folks. Hold off. That's it You know we're heading into the end of the year. There's not a whole lot moving generally So, you know start with this list and then if there's anything else out there around like, you know Three o'clock maybe 315 then look to scan the market a little bit more, you know seriously at that point As I said, alright folks, I'll speak to most of us at least coming up in class again The phase two stock course rich post the link in the chat board at least for all this their life. I'll talk to you all soon Take care


So today we talked about a very sad tale about trying to get information about the articles that are underpinned by data or vice versa, the data that is linked somehow to a journal. We saw that it was a very, very messy situation with one-on-one queries and searches and bilateral information exchanged between a plethora of data centres and journals and other scholarly publishers, really quite a mess and not even a very good result at the end of it. This colleagues initiative is a number of global publishers, data centres, service providers that have come together to address that messy problem with a much more coordinated flow of information from journals and data centres into a number of global hubs and then providing other people with the ability to now query in a much more efficient way for any articles that might be related to a particular data set or any data sets that may well be related to journal articles or other publications. So this is the contribution of the Scholics Working Group which is just kicking off now into some really quite important, desperate implementations of this approach.


My name is Conor Moly, this is Lacey Fan, we are Threat Hunters with Cantercept and we're going to be doing a presentation here about KillSuit. So what exactly are we going to be covering today? We're going to be covering what KillSuit is, what it does, what happens when it's installed into a system, how to detect and remediate KillSuit, how KillSuit persists in the system using its advanced boot kit solar time and how to detect and remediate a solar time infection. So first things first, what exactly is KillSuit? So KillSuit is a post-exploitation framework that was developed by the Equation Group prior to 2013 and leaked by the Shadow Brokers in the Lost in Translation leak in 2017. It's supposedly developed by the Equation Group which are strongly associated with the NSA although not confirmed, so it's likely a state-sponsored actor level attack framework. We know this is in the Dan Spitz framework which was inside the leak and United Rake which has direct references to it inside its instruction manual. So this is basically an overview of what KillSuit is, so what exactly does KillSuit do? So as we mentioned earlier it is a post-exploitation modular capability mechanism. It's a bit of a mouthful but we've done a diagram to basically outline what this means. Effectively the Dan Spitz framework uses the fuzzy bunch exploitation collection in order to pwn a victim to install a pedal cheap agent which is their advanced like C2 channel which then allows them to install a KillSuit instance which has an underlying KillSuit modules which allows for a certain functionality. Now the modules all have individual functionalities and the instances have individual functionality. They can't hear me. Can you hear me now? Yeah. Fantastic. Sorry about that. Where was I? Yep. So the individual modules all have individual capabilities and so do all the instances. Some of these can include persistence of the pedal cheap agent which is like a priority for the Dan Spitz framework as it allows persistence of their C2 channel inside the victim. Each instance and module type has a different codename. This is a list of the codenames that we know about. They all have different functionalities such as strange land which is a Kovac key logger, magic bean which is a Y file man in the middle attack, capability enablement or dark sky which is a package capture utility which is a module type. Now we've gone over modules and instances. Basically this is the way that they fit together. So you can have instance types which have individual capabilities but you can install separate modules under them which allows multiple instances to have the same capability. So in this diagram you can see that SOKN which is Sombernave and WRWA which is Raythrath both have the dark sky module installed which means that both instances have the capability to do package capture. Whereas magic bean and Sombernave which are the two on the left. The one on the left has Flu Avenue which is FLAV which is the IPV4 custom made IPV TCP stack that the guys use in order to avoid detection and DMGZ which is doorman goals which is the IPV6 variant. So you can have lots of instance types which have different capabilities and you can install separate modules under them to have either repeated or specific functionality. You're seeing the right we also added custom modules. That's because the Kilsu module library had the capacity to add new modules. But we didn't actually find how they built these things or the sort of language they used. They used a custom scripting language to begin with and they moved over to Python. So although these modules it has the capacity to load new modules that have never been seen before we couldn't actually find a way to build these or put them in. So if anyone wants to have a poke at that that'd be great. For the main research for this for the instance types and the module capabilities a guy from Francisco De Nozo is one pioneering this. So we do recommend looking at his work because that's basically where he focuses. We have a focus on basically detection of Kilsu when it's installed on a system. So we are going to look at what happens when Kilsu is actually installed on a system. So we did this by obviously creating lots of victim machines and an operating machine pining using fuzzy bunch and then installing Kilsu to see exactly what happened. For an example of so we had to condense this down but one of the main things that we saw was that we injected into a calculator process using double pulsar and this created this sort of action when Kilsu was installed. I call this the Jones Bond function but basically it's a NTML hash generation which happens inside calculator which as you might imagine there's no reason it should be generating hash years inside calculator. Now that's anomalous only in processes that shouldn't do it. So by default, um, then it's actually injecting to LSAS. So LSAS generating hash is not so anomalous. Calculates are very anomalous. So depending on where the operator decides to inject into, it's quite detectable or not. So it's not a be or end or. However, what it and did with that hash was more interesting. So we actually traced where that hash was used inside the process and we found that it basically was used to inject or modify this registry key, OEM management. Now OEM management doesn't actually exist. There's no real reference to that registry key that we could find and we found that that's actually where it installed the encrypted Kilsu database where it basically installed its capabilities. Now in the bottom there you'll see that we've got a KS module store route. This was basically generated using an internal tool for the framework called Double Feature. Double Feature is used by the operators in order to basically verify what is already on their system in a network that's being attacked so that two operators don't necessarily own the same machine. They can see if something's already being installed. Now the KS module route actually corresponded to OEM management. Obviously in this slide the ones with Ki's can see that it doesn't match and the reason for that is there are a lot of variations about where it put this. These are just some of the registry locations that we found while experimenting. Now you might see that the second half where it says cache CFG config is actually repeated and it's split by a capital letter. Now we found that actually the first half and the second half were actually repeated quite frequently and eventually it started to basically recur on itself. So we came to the conclusion that this was um more or less two lists that were being concatenated together and randomly or systematically selected at installation. So we concluded that if we could find these two lists with inside the framework or the binary we could therefore generate every combination and have an easy IOC identify where the KILC was installed and basically just sweet registries to be able to find this. We wanted to prove that this was what we thought and we did this by finding the concatenation operation. So we found that the registry location had two separate strings that were then concatenated together and then added to the end of the registry to verify that this was in fact what we thought it was. So hooray. So we broke down basically where we're going to investigate to try and find these lists. And it broke down into three areas. Um basically whether the communicate whether the operators framework communicated the location to the active uh petal chief agent to install the KILC. Whether the petal chief agent when it was in its DLL form for being injected by double pulsar had it hard coded. Or whether the payload uh the petal chief agent had both lists already in it and then decided basically to uh on the victims uh its victim system variables what options it was going to pick. Now we very quickly eliminated that it was hard coded into the payload because reuse of the payload didn't generate the same results it still was randomized. So definitely not hard coded. So we started looking at uh whether it was communicated from the Tucker. Now in order to do this we had to basically break down uh how the commands were used inside the inside the framework and how it was then transmitted to the agent. And it breaks out of this. The downspits user interface was then communicated to the uh Demi library which is decibel minute. Uh this was then handed off to the Dundaspray or DSZ library which in turn communicated with the primary uh the primary binary which is the DDZS core uh SC core which communicated with the petal chief agent on the inside the victim which then uh enacted uh Kilsu capabilities. So we looked at the decibel minute library to start with uh we quickly came to the conclusion that decibel minute uh was actually used for all of the uh Kilsu operations. One of the libraries that this one is inside the Handle Connect is actually um uh is responsible for uh dynamically loading and unload module drivers inside a Kilsu instance. So this particular uh function allows for um changing of the modules inside an active Kilsu instance. But from the bit that I've highlighted you can see that it actually hands off uh to a uh MCL dot tasking RPC perform call and this is inside the Dundaspray library. Now the DSZ library in turn calls a hidden underscore uh private underscore DSZ library. Now this is where we actually run into a bit of a problem. The underscore DSZ library and the function inside it would nowhere inside the framework that we could find. So all of the libraries were uh python based and this underscore or any of the functions were not in there. And that created a real problem because this was primary to how it communicates with the pedigree pageant. So we started looking and because we couldn't find it inside the framework itself we started looking in the binary. We uh started to analyze the binary and we found that it did have error captures for particular functions inside that we knew were inside this private library but the uh function locations that we found for them were all empty. So a bit more extra research by one of our colleagues Alex Konica uh found that it was in fact a C python module library that was loaded at runtime which is why we couldn't find it statically. So although we were trying to statically analyze it it wasn't there. So we moved on to dynamic analysis to the binary but we ran into even sectionary problems. Now whoever built this tool uh the equation group um they really didn't want this being analyzed. They put in quite a lot of things to prevent us from analyzing it. One of them was that it detect detected debug hookers and if it found one it would instantly terminate. So that was just an indicator of they don't want us to connect this. We were actually able to hide the debugger and get it to run anyway but all the memory locations that we found that were allocated to the function including the index root for the functions there were multiple and a lot of them were dummies and even the locations for the variables we found that the data was either loaded and unloaded so quickly we couldn't find it or we couldn't find the true variable that was actually looking for which was extremely annoying. So we actually reached the capability of our analysis and we had to conclude we don't know if it's there. Which was very unfortunate. So we came to conclusion of although we've got to the end of our capability we're not sure it's there but if we can eliminate that it's inside the payload at least we can focus on one particular area. So we moved on to whether the payload was deciding it from uh environmental variables inside the target. However this created another set of problems. So the binary when it's injected is actually encrypted and um looking at the stack of the process injected into the variables we were looking for for killsuit operations where instead of being as far as we can tell instead of being injected into the process we're injected into kernel data. Now we couldn't figure out how it did it we couldn't figure out why it did it and we couldn't extract the variables we were looking for which again created the situation of we don't know if it's there which made us very upset. So although this came to the conclusion of we have a lot of uh possible variations of the of the combination of the tutors we have we couldn't actually find the tutors within the system. Now if anyone does have expertise in this area please talk to me because we really want to find this list because that would be really awesome. But although we couldn't find these tutors we were looking for we didn't let it stop us and we carried on anyway. And in doing so we came across this which we found was um a check that was made against every fresh killsuit installation on a fresh pedal cheap instance on side of victim. And it does this um cryptographic default provider type of type 023 registry check. Now the first thing of noting is what exactly is a cryptographic provider type? Now a cryptographic provider type is basically a plug and play function or a plug and play description inside the registry which explains how certain encryption algorithms are to be used with certain variables for specific outcomes. Now this is under the windows default and it has a number for AES, DSS and Diffie Hyman things like that. And it has versions 1, 3, 5, 12, 13, 18 and 24. It does not have a default type of 23. This was confirmed by looking at Markz's documentation as accurate as that can be. Um but we found we also found no trace of any legitimate form of uh type 023 within the default provider types. So we had something that was consistent across all infections and something that could be easy checks for using registry monitoring. So we had a consistent um point of installation that we can monitor for using this type 023 and we had a semi conclusive way of monitoring for legacy installations using the registry locations that we generated. So moving on from how we actually did the research, how to detect and actually really remediate Kiehl's suit using this information. So it breaks down into the type 023 default cryptographic type that I just explained. The system function 007 which is the anti-malhash generation depending on which process is injected into. That has obviously quite a big variable for hit and miss depending on what the operator is injected into. And the uh registry directory that installs the encrypted database. Again that's semi conclusive at the moment and not very conclusive. You'll see that there's an extra box there and that's because in the final sweep of the framework we found that there was actually a driver list that was inside the framework. And this can send multiple references to Kiehl's suit only or Kiehl's suit removed driver after installation. We found that these actually refer to Kiehl's suit loader drivers. Uh but after installation and infection of the machine we couldn't actually find any trace of them ever being used. So although they were inside the framework we couldn't find any trace of them on what we were looking at. So something that could be looked at later but we we couldn't find anything. So removal and neutering of a Kiehl's suit basically requires the understanding of how uh Kiehl's suit operates. And it focuses basically on that it always refers to this encrypted registry database I explained. So the boot pack itself will load the Kiehl's suit modules from the registry database. The running Kiehl's suit instances refer to the database. The pill chief instance when it tries to enact Kiehl's suit um actions has to refer to the database so as you notice everything refers to the database.  You basically neuter Kiehl's suit and all of its functionality. Now that breaks down to knowing where Kiehl's suit is. So um that that requires obviously a bit more searching of the two lists. And obviously if we find the two lists we can find all of it. Um if not uh the list that we provided we have done a research paper and the two lists that we found of the two halves and basically any combination you can find it's an easy sweep to do across an estate. So now that I've gone over well how to find Kiehl's suit and how to remove it. The what's more interesting and what's very important is how the SOTI there SOTI boot pack SOTI time boot pack operator which is their advanced boot loader works. Um and for that I'm going to hand over to Lacey who did the research. So thinking about all those like complex frameworks that we just saw for defense evasion um it will probably be pointless if you do not implement a persisting module which the attackers could connect back to should a petrochip connection be dropped. Um installing a persistence mechanism actually means that if the system is patched from the exploit that is present in fast sponge the attacker will still be able to compromise the system at any time they want. So how do we find out the different methods of persistence in Kiehl's suit? Um we can type the command Kiehl's survey in the Dennis Brits terminal. This figure here shows that there's three types of persistence methods that you can do with Kiehl's suit. And the very first one is driver. Then you have SOTI which stands for solar time. And then you have Juvie which stands for just visiting. So one cool thing about this command is that it will tell you whether it is compatible with your victim host. Um for example driver is outdated because of code signing policies that Windows implemented. And just visiting is also outdated because it is built for Windows Vista. So the only compatible method that we are left with is actually solar time. But what exactly is solar time? So I was really curious and I wanted to find out whether there are any information available online about this elusive method. Um and I found out to be as safe as possible equation group went really low level as they can which is infecting the firmware. So according to a report made by Kasper ski, solar time was first term by them as gray fish. It inserts appeal into the firmware which hijacks the boot sequence of the operating system. And then it gains complete control to install a virtual file system in the registry of the hard drive. And this is the gray fish architecture presented by Kasper ski. So in an infected volume boot record, an encrypted container file is loaded. The container file will then load a kernel mode orchestrator which downloads the user mode part from registry before starting the payloads. And so what we are going to do is to focus on the left box portion of the diagram. But what exactly is this encrypted container file that is loaded in the volume boot record? To check whether to check which is the container file being loaded, you can run the check salty python script in the Dennis Brits terminal and it will tell you the solar time container present in the disk. This is the only file that is searchable through the file system on disk. And this container file is stored as a true type font file and will be the very first file loaded by windows even prior to kernel initialization. So since solar time affects the volume boot record, it is considered as a boot kit. And before analyzing boot kits I would like to go through a little bit on the windows boot process. So the first step is during power on the bios boot code begins with basic system initialization for example simplified input output interface. The bios then loads the master boot record which finds the active partition and loads the volume boot record. The volume boot record contains partition layout information in a data structure called the bios parameter block. This block describes the physical layout of the data storage volume for example is the NTFS or the FAT file system was the number of sectors per cluster etc. The volume boot record then passes control to the initial program loader which is responsible for parsing the file system. It then loads the boot manager which manages the boot process until the user chooses a boot option before loading wingload.exe which is responsible for starting the kernel. So after all this reading up and discovering our bootkits and grayfish how does solar time actually work in relation to this boot process. So the very first change we notice is that solar time disables error reporting in the volume boot record. Looking at the volume boot record instead of a hot instruction solar time change it into infinite loop. Operational errors are standardly displayed by hitting a hot command stopping function so examples could be a missing or compressed boot manager. And solar time changes this so even if an operational error occurs no error reporting actually happens. So this prevents alerts or cause of investigation into the cause of a boot failure. And the second disparity between a normal boot process and solar time infected boot is that it relocates the IPL. And right before passing control to the IPL solar time replaces multiple instructions with not bytes and overrides the jump destination. And so the reason for overriding this destination is that solar time hides a lot of data at 7E7A. So this forces solar time to use an alternate location to launch the IPL from within the volume boot record. So this is a sample from an infected boot. You can see that the address 7E7A contains lots of random bytes and so it turns out that these bytes store the file reference and encryption key that are used later on to load and decrypt the file. So if the control pass to the IPL, solar time then starts to locate and load the container file. And to do that solar time uses many of the in-built loading functions already in a normal boot by inserting an ECX flag. So this way solar time can control when to load its malicious file without affecting the normal IPL process. So reusing standard boot code is more efficient because solar time will not have to rewrite everything which would probably introduce a lot more instability in the system. As the IPL is responsible for parsing the NTFS file system, I'll squeeze in a little information on that. So NTFS is the file system of Windows and everything on an NTFS volume is a file. And one of the special file you have in NTFS is object ID which contains unique IDs given to every file. So the attributes of object ID are the five shown here at the different offsets. And I would like to draw your attention to the third attribute which is index root. Index root is the root node and contains a list of all index entries of the object IDs. So a typical index entry structure in the index root of the object ID file is called the old index. And solar time identifies its container file by comparing the GUID object ID value in the old index with the object ID stored at address 7E7A. And once the right old entry is found, the MFT file reference can be fetched to load the file record. So this diagram shows how solar time actually hijacks a normal operation of the IPL and loads its container file. And in the malicious flow, solar time passes the object ID index root depending on the ECX register. This object ID file is not usually loaded or needed in the IPL section of a normal boot process. And if the ECX register is set, a standard load will occur. If not, it will load the index root of the object ID file, locates the index entry of the container file, and then load the file record before loading the file data. So on the left shows the file record of the boot pack loaded with the name David BydogtTF. And on the right are the contents of the file being loaded to address 600,000. And so after loading the true type font file, SOTI decrypts the malware using the encryption key hidden under 7E7A. After decryption of the malware, solar time then proceeds on to calculate a CRC32 hash to verify the file integrity. So how can we detect and remediate solar time? Since Qsuit can only use solar time to install on modern operating systems that are still using the legacy boot, detecting solar time will be a solution to detecting all Qsuit instances. Installation of solar time can be determined in two ways. First, you can use the checked solar time Python script, but this is inconvenient because you probably need to pawn your own machine to check it. Examination of the script did reveal things that are helpful, which are the various names the kernel driver container could be stored under. So in this case, the name David BydogtTF corresponded to the file that we found in previous slides. And the second way of detection is to check the volume boot record itself. As mentioned, solar time outputs the VBR, changing the jump address when transferring control to the IPL. And in doing so, it inputs two knob commands at 267 and 268 bytes of the VBR. So this alteration can be searched by using Python. We modified the open source code PyMBR written by Hamtus. And in our modified version, we find the first section of the NBR to find the start of the VBR. We then check the data in the VBR at bytes 267 and 268 for the hex value 90, which is code for knob. And if the knob value in place is in place, we can confirm that the VBR has been modified. So solar time is really hard to prevent because it infects the firmware of the drive. So unless manufacturer signs the firmware, modifications in the firmware would go unnoticed. However, since solar time does only affect the legacy boot systems opting for UEFI secure boot, what prevents solar time from working? Okay, so this is supposed to be a talk given by Francisco Donoso, but internet is definitely not working now. But this is what inspired our research. And this is a book that is also fantastic for my research. So do check them out if you have time. And yep, we are done.


So now with the launch of the iPhone 13 range, I wanted to give you guys my honest opinion about 5 reasons why you shouldn't upgrade to the iPhone 13 Pro. Now this is specifically for those that may have the iPhone 12 Pro or even any of the other iPhone 12 models. In case you are deciding to upgrade to iPhone 13, these are some of the things you should be aware of after having seen the event myself. And before you guys say anything, I'm not one of those people that just want to slam Apple for any particular reason. You know I'm an iPhone 12 user myself, I have the Apple Watch, the MacBook, the AirPods, the iPad. I'm part of the Apple ecosystem and I probably will continue to be so. I've been an Android user for such a long time but these are just my honest opinions from what I saw in the launch event yesterday about why the iPhone 13 Pro specifically is a little bit underwhelming in my decision to upgrade from my iPhone 12 Pro. So without further ado, let's just get straight into it. So no particular order, the first reason is this redesign. Now they mention you know 20% less of a notch size. On the front the TrueDep camera system has been re-engineered to provide more display area. The position of the camera lenses at the back making them diagonal. iPhone 13 has a new look for the advanced dual camera system with the lenses arranged diagonally. On the back you'll see our incredible new camera system with beautiful stainless steel trim that perfectly surrounds the sapphire crystal lenses of each of our three new cameras. Finally the stainless steel trim on the camera lenses. Who are you going to be telling about that and who's going to be really excited about that? Hey bro, have you seen my stainless steel trims on my camera lenses? I bet yours are plastic. And even the color options for the Pro and Pro Max range. iPhone 13 Pro comes in four striking finishes. A rich deep graphite, gorgeous gold, beautiful silver and this all new Sierra Blue. For me they just seem very outdated, they seem washed out and they're not exciting or appealing whatsoever in my opinion. Especially that Sierra Blue, I think that's a lot worse than the iPhone 12 Pro which is the Pacific Blue. This is such a nice blue color. That Sierra Blue looks like a very washed out version of this. So for me even the colors are not that appealing so from the design perspective I don't think there's hardly anything that's changed other than those tiny little things that they wanted to focus on and it feels like they're scrapping the bottom of the barrel just to find anything to mention why it's different to the iPhone 12 Pro. The second reason are the camera upgrades. Now they've mentioned a few changes to all of the camera lenses on the Pro and Pro Max range and there are incremental changes which I do appreciate but do they really make a big difference if you have the 12 Pro compared to the 13 Pro? Let's dive a little bit closer. So the telephoto camera now has three times optical zoom compared to the two times optical zoom for the 12 Pro. Now I don't know about you guys on how much photography you're doing by using the telephoto lens but from two times to three times it's not such a massive difference and I don't think that's a good enough reason just to upgrade. Ultra wide camera, this is probably the lens that has the most changes so now there's autofocus there's a larger 1.8 aperture and compared to the iPhone 12 Pro that had no autofocus and a 2.4 aperture. So there is a bit of a change so again it depends if you do use the ultra wide lens quite often are these changes worth having and the main wide camera is now f1.5 and it has 1.9 macro pixels it also allows you to do macro photography so you can get really close to objects. Compared to iPhone 12 Pro that had f2.4 and it had 1.4 micro pixels no macro photography. Now again with this macro photography thing it is a nice to have feature if you are one of those people that really want to take close up pictures of leaves and plants and flowers most likely you're probably going to use that the first day just to test it out and I'm pretty sure 90 plus percent of you guys are not going to go back and start using that any time afterwards. So it's a nice feature but I don't think it's enough to upgrade from the 12 Pro to the 13 Pro and of course with these incremental changes it's nice that they are doing it and it's a step in the right direction but if you have the 12 Pro and the 13 Pro in your hand and you take a whole bunch of pictures in your day to day activities for most of you it will feel like you won't be able to see much difference. Of course when you do a lot of shooting at nighttime and in low lighting conditions that's where you might see the 13 Pro a little bit more brighter and you'll see things a little bit clearer but again it depends how much of those types of pictures you're taking. In terms of the video recording the 13 Pro this is obviously a more of an advantage is now they allow you to do pro res recording at 4k and for me specifically this would be more suitable for those professional videographers and filmmakers that use their phone as the primary video camera for all of their filming and shooting and for those people that do professional post production editing in apps such as Final Cut Pro where you can utilise the pro res recordings to create all of your films and for me particularly unless you fall into that category that wouldn't be enough of a reason to buy the 13 Pro to shoot videos. If you just take general videos you're out with your friends or you don't really use it for any professional use then the video recording capabilities on the 12 Pro is just as good as the 13 Pro. However I will just say as a caveat if you are doing professional videos then the cinematic mode that they launched I think is pretty great and that would be for me a very good reason to upgrade if I am a professional videographer and filmmaker so I know there's other companies that have tried that in the past I know that Samsung have had something similar OnePlus have tried to do the same thing but Apple have just took it to the next level and the features that they've showcased for me personally I think that is great and if you're buying a phone just for your day to day driver then you're probably not going to use the cinematic video mode that often and it wouldn't be a specific reason unless you are a filmmaker to upgrade to that 13 Pro and finally they have these new incremental changes to the way you take photos as well like the photographic style filters they've introduced I feel like those will eventually appear in the previous iPhone models through software updates so that wouldn't be enough just to upgrade specifically for the 13 Pro. Question number three is around performance. Now I do understand that they showcase that the phones are now super fast 5G ready but they've been doing that for a while now and it was the same with the iPhone 12. My iPhone 12 Pro is also super fast 5G ready and what they failed to mention is that unless you live in a very good coverage area of 5G then you're only going to get 4G speeds that's something you'd have to check before you upgrade to see if you're even able to get 5G coverage data packages but of course the A15 Bionic chip is the biggest upgrade in the performance compared to the A14 which is in my iPhone 12 Pro and that is just one extra core in the GPU making it a little bit more faster than the 12 Pro but what I would say is if you have both of those phones and you hold them side by side and you try to do all of your day to day activities like sending your emails, sending text messages, WhatsApp, browsing your social media, posting pictures, taking pictures, videos, all of those kind of things you may not even notice that much of a speed difference by having the 13 Pro and the 12 Pro because the 12 Pro is pretty fluid, it's pretty responsive and it does work very well so for the majority of you folk that might be thinking of getting the 13 Pro you most likely won't see much of a difference when you have the 12 Pro unless you're really doing benchmark testing against that. Reason number four battery life iPhone 13 Pro lasts more than one and a half hours longer in your day than iPhone 12 Pro specifically for the Pro models one and a half hours more battery for me that personally is very underwhelming if they had mentioned something like five to six hours more battery life I think that would be a massive significant upgrade but you know if you maybe are on a break at work and you want to quickly go into some gaming on your phone then you automatically might reduce about half an hour of battery life and that will just maybe give you only one hour advantage compared to the 12 Pro. Now if you're awake 16 hours of the day most likely you're going to be charging your phone one time maybe during the day maybe a couple of times or if you are on your desk most of the day then you have a charger there and you leave it plugged in from time to time so that wouldn't even make much of a difference but one and a half hours for me personally is very underwhelming and it's not a reason to really sway away from the iPhone 12 Pro. Last but not least the fifth reason why I feel like you shouldn't upgrade is the fact of how many things are similar from the 12 Pro to the 13 Pro. Now they've mentioned everything in the keynote event to say what has changed and what is different what they've mentioned you know they've done 20 improvements here 20 less size of this and 20 brightness is increased etc etc but what they failed to mention is the other 80% is exactly the same now i'm on this side gsm arena i use this site to do a comparison side by side with a lot of phones so let's go ahead and let me just showcase to you guys how many things are exactly the same so on the left hand side you'll see this is the iPhone 13 Pro and on the right hand side this is the iPhone 12 Pro so let's dive in start with the body pretty much it's almost exactly the same size it's very miniscule but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference the 12 Pro is actually a little bit lighter um the 13 Pro weighs a little bit more everything else is pretty much exactly the same setup display wise again everything is the same apart from now you have the 120 hertz refresh rate for the iPhone 13 Pro what they mentioned is that the brightness is 20 more on the 13 Pro which is clearly you can see that here for the peak brightness 1000 nits compared to 8000 nits but what they don't mention is that the maximum brightness that each of these phones go to are exactly the same which is 1200 nits at its ultimate peak size and resolution almost exactly the same protection you know they mentioned that it's a little bit more durable with the screen protector that they have on the 13 Pro but everything else is pretty much exactly the same there in terms of the os you'll have ios 15 right out of the box but that will be something you can upgrade to the bionic chip obviously that's the biggest difference there five core versus four core memory so you can get up to one terabyte now for the pro max on the 13 pro but you have very similar storage options on both phones now i've spoken a little bit about the camera and the differences that have already been introduced so i won't cover this one in too much details the selfie camera however is exactly the same there's no change there the communication channels is exactly the same as well the core sensors and the features they are exactly the same battery we don't have the information just yet at the time of this video of what the capacity of the 13 pro battery is but like they mentioned is 1.5 hours more than the iphone 12 pro so 2815 for me personally you know that's still a little bit underwhelming but based on their software updates that can actually last a full day and some of these other updates haven't been updated just yet but as you just seen for the majority of the things they are exactly the same so if i could sum up basically the entire event for the iphone 13 specifically i would say it's underwhelming it's predictable and it's in true apple fashion most of the time when people wait for big launches they expect drastic changes but if you are maybe thinking of buying the iphone 12 pro instead of the brand new 13 pro then this is one thing also that i don't like is with the pro and the max models what apple do is they stop selling them on their website but they will only sell the standard 12 and the 12 mini options forcing you to upgrade to the new pro and max models so for example i'm here on the apple website this is for the new 13 pro if i go over to iphone you'll see you can buy the 13 pro the 13 and then the 12 what you can't do anymore is buy the 12 pro or the 12 pro max by them so if i do a search for iphone 12 pro you'll see it doesn't show up but if i hit enter it only gives you these options and it's a bit of a shame but if you do want to buy the iphone 12 pro then you'd have to go to a different retailer other than the apple website so for me personally i feel like the 12 pro would give you the better value if you are looking to save some money and still get a very great phone so maybe even if you go to somewhere like ebay you can save three four hundred pounds compared to the new 13 pro and still get a decent phone so that's my two cents and hopefully you know you guys felt the same way as well if you guys feel different and you feel like it is definitely worth upgrading to the 13 pro then drop a comment i'd like to hear your feedback as well if you did like this video make sure you give it a thumbs up i've got plenty of iphone related videos coming out in the near future new videos out every week make sure to subscribe so you don't miss those ones and i'll catch you guys next time take care this beautiful design is the same