أنت تفعل كتب ما تريد أن تصمير عن أجل المنطقة تحاول أجل努ية ما هو من خلال ما هو أكتب ما هو that is not supposed to be there sometimes something is too much sometimes it is too little and therefore it is causing the problem and you and I know that the blood in the system is pumped by the heart this heart is such a beautiful organ it is said that it pumps more than 100000 times I don't know why every day they play with the microphone after I get here the volume goes up it was there was no point in changing this my beloved brothers it's not that I'm upset but I am a person if something is wrong I'd rather talk about it for two minutes now and enjoy the next hour and to suffer for one hour quietly may Allah سبحانه وتعالى make us genuine people I mean so my beloved brothers and sisters what we need to realize and understand is if this heart pumps 100000 to 136 140000 times a day for example imagine no battery and no doing of ours who gave us this and how did it happen it is Allah alone it is a creator a maker the muscle has actually moved سبحان الله I think we need to rectify this sound my beloved brothers whoever is responsible for the sound let's put it back to where it was when I started let's put the sound back to where it was when I started I have to break into a smile just to let you know that you know sometimes you have to be very firm but in a polite way so this is a gift of Allah سبحانه وتعالى it's a great gift of Allah سبحانه وتعالى because Allah سبحانه وتعالى if you take a look at what he has favored us with you will never be able to you will never be able to realize that gift of Allah you will never be able to circumscribe it we see the gifts of Allah سبحانه وتعالى they are so plentiful they are so many that we will not be able to count them should we stop for a while until we sort the sound out I think it's a better idea instead of concentrating so Insha'Allah we'll commence after تست تست 123 تست تست 123 تست 123 تست تست 123 okay now okay it seems alright now start بسم الله والحمد لله والصلاة والسلام على رسول الله وعلى آله والصحاب here جمعين once again we have to praise Allah we have to thank him upon all conditions nothing happens that is negative for us everything that happens is positive it's just that man does not realize the positiveness in what happens sometimes we become upset sometimes we lose our cool sometimes we suffer a loss we need to know that in the eyes of Allah سبحانه وتعالى it is only positive for us if we realize and we believe it's Allah سبحانه وتعالى it can never be negative in the real sense because ultimately life is a test and this is what it's all about so I start off again by saying when we are unwell we have a blood test in order to check what is wrong with us in order to know what is high what is low in order to be able to know how to combat the problem and this heart that we have that pumps the blood if you put your hand on your chest you will actually feel it pumping have you realize that if you were to pay even one fraction of a cent for every time the heart was beating you would become bankrupt you would not be able to afford it so Allah سبحانه وتعالى has given us such a great gift free of charge totally free what does he want from us he wants from us that we worship him he wants from us that we follow the messengers whom he has sent to us in order to guide us to show us how to worship him that's what Allah wants from us he wants us to lead a life of goodness and kindness and he has chosen for us a certain way of coming into creation into being if Allah wanted we could have grown on this earth like the trees and plants we could have grown like a tree and this may happen on the day of قيامة according to some of the narrations where people will be growing coming up from the earth you know when you are buried the body in most cases would actually go back into the soil decompose a small part of it may remain it's called عجب الزنب that عجب الزنب is like a seed of a man it will rain a special rain for 40 days a white thick rain and by the 40 days or 40 years the narration just says 40 and as a result human beings will grow when it comes to the محشر the place where we are going to be resurrected they will grow some narration say they will be very tall anyway that's a topic on its own the point I want to raise is Allah chose for us a separate way what is it he chose for us parents parents these parents we had no say in who they were just like when you have an examination you have no say what the questions are going to be no say you enter the exam room and you are waiting waiting for the papers they will be handed out the questionnaires the question papers and you fill it in you will see the questions on that day at that time prior to that you did not know what was going to be asked so when we say life is a test we can prove it by looking at what has happened how did we come in the life I had no say who are my parents where which part of the globe I was going to be born what nationality what race what ethnicity what financial standing the parents would be and so on we had no clue no idea we had no say it's a test from Allah Allah put it and Allah says I want you to do things so your parents no matter who they are they are a test for you and your children no matter who they are they are a test for you and your brothers and sisters no matter who they are they are a test for you and so on now why did I start with the example of the heart because the heart is the seat of command when it comes to the blood or the seat of the pumping when it comes to the whole body of the blood so what you would realize is if you have a weak heart you find that you know what you will you will have sickness illness may Allah grant us all cure say I mean sometimes thickness develops in the blood cholesterol etc. and you find a person feeling weak lethargic they start feeling pain etc. may Allah grant us cure in the same way that the heart is extremely important when it comes to the body being well I promise you the family the family unit is extremely important when it comes to society community the nation the umma being well if that family unit is not taken care of they will be a problem they will be a problem that problem sometimes we might be able to deal with it and inshallah come out of it but sometimes it is so disastrous that it causes huge issues this is why Allah سبحانه وتعالى wants us from the very beginning that the most important people in your life are your parents و قضى ربك ألا تعبدو إلا إياه وبالوالدين إحسانا الله has declared that none shall be worshipped besides him what does Allah say none shall be worshipped besides him we need to sit and repeat this so many times because many of us say it but we don't actually enforce it properly none shall be worshipped besides him when we say لا إله إلا الله محمد الرسول الله do you know what it means we our children will say yes we know what it means it means there is no god worthy of worship besides Allah is that not what it means and محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم is the final messenger of Allah is that not what it means well i tell you we say it but we don't think about it no one worthy of worship did you hear that say it two three times no one worthy of worship besides Allah سبحان الله what a powerful statement so Allah says i made you you owe your worship to me alone and i want you to be kind and good to your parents Allah says إحسانا to be kind to be good to your parents notice he did not say obey them in that verse he says be kind to them be respectful to them why did he not say obey them obey is for Allah if they tell you to do something that is within what Allah has allowed you will listen to them however if they tell you to do something that is outside what Allah has instructed you cannot listen to them but you have to respectfully detach or you have to respectfully decline your father tells you son here is 200 rupees i want you to go and buy me some drugs i want you to go and i'm not talking of drugs as in medication i'm talking of the hardcore stuff you know what would you do you have to refuse you have to say dad i pray that you quit this habit and really it's a bad habit and unfortunately i will not be able to do this because it is sinful it is not only sinful but harmful as well you respectfully but you don't start swearing him dad and you start swearing shouting screaming no that is your father he asked you to do something very bad you declined it but respectfully we need to talk about it for a moment my beloved father you have been granted the daughter or a son and here you are abusing these children in some way or another not just sexual abuse which does happen by the way it happens a lot by the way may Allah forgive those parents but you know the damage that is done is so severe that it would jail you that would not be enough it would not be enough may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala grant protection to our own children from the evil of shaitan remember people are good shaitan is bad when something bad happens blame the devil but don't blame the devil in a way that you keep on doing the bad we blame the devil you did not get up for صلاة الفجر you say I ask for Allah I seek refuge from Allah from the shaitan you know i was sleeping shaitan came he made me feel so good before doing it I was already fast asleep once again and the sun had already risen but if that's happening every day you become a small shaitan yourself may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala protect us may Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala safeguard us so what you need to realize is some of the people have bad habits we abuse our children by screaming at them yelling at them swearing them shouting them beating them up and we think I'm a father I am entitled no my beloved father that is a test for you you are also a creature of Allah Allah bless you with those children as a test for you and you are failing that test don't allow that to happen however going back to the child subhanallah like I said from the very beginning الله says do good to your parents why because he chose them for you that's why who created you we say Allah how did he choose to make you he chose to make me through these parents of mine who are they that's my mother that's my father okay they divorced so if they divorced I still need to be kind to my mother I still need to be kind to my father they are divorced I need to be kind to both of them and if there is politics between them you know what that means if there is mud slinging between them mom tells you you know dad is very bad and dad tells you you know mom is very bad you can excuse yourself and say listen please don't talk to me about my mother or please don't talk to me about my father and that's it we should be mature enough that when we have a problem between us as husband wife we should not let it seep down to the children because it will affect them mentally emotionally they feel insecure and as a result they go into bad habits they go into bad friends they look for security and love online and elsewhere and then when they fall head first we start saying I wonder what happened to the child I gave them such a good upbringing many times people say I gave my son my daughter such a good upbringing I don't know where they went wrong and I say come here let's talk ask them 20 30 questions and you realize how bad a parent they were they were not there they didn't participate they fought they did so many things everything plays a role it has an impact upon the children so as a child if you see the problems try and educate your parents also because it's not wrong for you as a child to correct your father you need to do that to correct your mother you need to do that and I need to take that in as a parent if my children tell me I think you're going wrong I need to think to myself if this child is right then indeed I need to change your son tells you dad the way you are reading is actually wrong I saw what you're doing when you are reading and you are putting your forehead on the ground and it's not on the ground so you need to put the nose you say hey you are my son keep quiet who are you I'm your father how can you tell me hey listen you are wrong in Islam it does not matter how old you are or what your relationship is you correct someone respectfully respectfully meaning in a nice way you tell them something beautifully if you do not correct someone in a beautiful way you will damage society how even if it's your own child because there becomes a trend of pointing bashing you know what happens with us if I did something wrong no one will come to me with a note to say I think you need to correct this or that or no one will send me a private email to say you know I really respect you but I think you made two mistakes in your life or three mistakes that are glaring this one this one and then they leave it between me and Allah but they fulfilled their duty what they would rather do is go behind your back where did they get this from they got it from a young age when the parents brought them up there was something that happened within that family unit that made them hit this way and that way without tackling the matter tackle the matter beautiful respectable way I'm enjoying speaking to you because I stopped for two minutes do you notice that I'm enjoying it there's nothing wrong superb I pray for those who made this possible may Allah bless them and their offspring and every one of us too Mashallah it doesn't mean that just when a mistake happens then we pray for them but we pray for them too yes it's like you know when people park their cars in a wrong way so what happens is you make the announcement oh we are advertising free for the car you see we are saying Golf GTI number plate C A T 2 0 0 0 white in color park their emergency we need to leave now the brother is sitting in front of you but he doesn't want to leave because all of the Masjid will look at him everyone is going to look at him so you have to say whoever's car it is may Allah bless you with جنة may Allah forgive you may Allah grant you good health now he looks he says Alhamdulillah Amin Amin 2 3 people start getting up you want to know whose car is it subhan Allah subhan Allah then what happened is one brother told me Shaykh you know what there is a problem because now people want to park their car in the way so that they get a du'a so I said you know what may Allah give double to those who did not park their car in the wrong way so we still have the du'a may Allah bless you all it's beautiful the dean is so beautiful so kind Allah is merciful if you have made a mistake in your life trust me it's not the end it's not the end you are still a very good person you are still a lovely person it is up to those who love you truly to see the goodness in you and remind you that you are a good person ask a mother whose son is in the club and drinking and on drugs addicted completely according to us they've wasted their lives ask the mother she will say I still have hope my child is a good boy have you heard that happening he's a very good boy he is such a lovely child I don't know I hope Allah I pray to Allah that Allah brings him back and the mother continues praying and praying and praying and praying whereas we who look from the side what do we do we say gonna finished life is gone you look at him say what are you doing in the masjid here may Allah forgive us I recall one day there was a man who had a very big problem he was walking in the masjid and a few of the pious people you know pious means those who eat pies so meaning it depends what you're talking about right if those who are truly pious they are religious people who have a soft heart who like to reach out to others who are filled with love filled with kindness and goodness you know when you see them you really feel like you want to be a better Muslim they remind you of Allah but the other pious is those who eat pies they were standing by the masjid they saw this guy who never comes to the masjid he was coming who brought him to the masjid Allah how by putting a problem in his life when he had a problem in his life do you know what happened he decided let me go to the masjid I make dua I make toba and I will inshallah turn back to Allah and I will ask Allah to help me through my problem so he came as he was coming these people said you got lost today do you know what that means what are you doing here my brother this is not your house the poor fellow it was the last time we saw him at the masjid he went away because he felt so bad when I met him sometime later I told him listen brother don't worry about these people don't worry about anyone you come it's not their house that was the last hurdle that Shaytan put in front of you and Allah wanted to show you that I am the one who is merciful the other people may not be merciful so I want to reach out to all my brothers and sisters here wallahi the almighty loves you that's why you are here the almighty loves you that's why you are listening because you need hope you need encouragement you need to know you are a good person there is goodness in everyone the problem is we don't see it we don't develop it we don't encourage people we are ready to fire any small thing bad bad bad bad notice I'm pointing at the wall I'm not pointing at anyone in particular any small thing we are ready to point but good things good things we don't even want to look towards this happens with our own children in our own homes we pick on them anytime and every time they do something bad we pick on them poor child comes back from the examination with his results he is excited I got 98% in a typical home what do they do how did you lose that 2% I mean relax I got 98 I was top of the class and you could have got 100 next time work hard you know what I tell my children wallahi I tell them son enjoy school I don't need you to come first second or third I need you to work as hard as you can while you're enjoying your life at the school I don't want tension on your head you come back and you're crazy enjoy it it's a time to actually develop in a holistic way not just to get results how many people they get top marks but socially they are kept so strictly that they are scared to talk to anyone because the father and the mother are like hey you better study from what time to what time from 10 o'clock to 10 o'clock they study 10 o'clock to 10 o'clock may Allah forgive us enjoy your time you don't need to be first because the classroom that is made up of 30 people 40 people how many can come first one maybe two the rest of them they are not dafts those are the rest of them will become the doctors and the accountants today we are all graduated a lot of us here look like we are professionals no one's going to ask you were you first or second in the class did you get 98% 98% or 100% no I could have got 49 and I wrote again who knows no one knows may Allah سبحانه وتعالى help us so that the end is better say I mean so we need to respect our parents because if we respect our parents we will be able to fulfill the plan of Allah سبحانه وتعالى here on earth you respect your parents when does obedience come in obedience comes in when they tell you that which Allah has told you too for example your mother your father says you know what you better get up for صلاة الله you have to the reason is Allah told you and your parents are telling similarly when it's something permissible and your mother your father is telling you you should listen to them you should obey the instruction your father says I want you to go very carefully I want you to get up this time and come or go or do this or do that and it's something permissible you should listen that's your father that's your mother سبحان الله however when it comes to big decisions very big decisions remember something very important that is you have to discuss with one another as the child grows older he develops or she develops a mind of his own in the sense that they have their own feelings they have their own dreams they have their own understandings your father and your mother can have had dreams you can have had dreams for your children as they grow older you have to adjust those dreams in accordance with the reality on the ground you have to adjust them you cannot when the child is born you cannot look at the child and say doctor doctor what doctor سبحان الله سبحان الله so someone who doesn't know English they might think no, not doctor this is a son because the way they pronounce daughter is like doctor also may Allah سبحانه وتعالى grant us ease you need to know you might want your child to be a big alem sheikh whatever people now have some noble ideas work towards it but realize that on the ground something might happen that is different they might want to choose otherwise don't force your children to do what they don't want to do don't they want to become something no problem become that you're a good Muslim you fulfill your Salah you're an honest person you worship Allah alone you're trying your best to follow the Sunnah of the most beloved of all creation Nabi Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم indeed you are on the right path not everyone needs to be the same thing not everyone needs to be the same thing but then there comes a question of marriage a lot of children might say you help me you know oh mom come I'm ready to get married you can help me and it happens in a lot of homes I think majority the bulk of homes it still happens like this where the children will say please help us and then you're introduced to one, two, three, four perhaps you meet a few people many when you're happy with someone you say right I'm happy here if they're still not happy with you you might have to go again because it does not mean that when you are happy with someone they are happy with you you see it's common logic because you say I don't like this person or I'm not compatible suitable with this one not this one not this one yes this one is a very good one and that one will say I don't think I'm compatible with you it happens it's okay don't become depressed you can say no problem we try again and you go on and on and you might want to go back to someone whom you thought was not compatible to you you say hang on mom you know the third person I met I really think they were good no harm in going back they might say too late why am I saying this because this is the heart of the home the family unit must be so beautiful you must have such a powerful relationship that you can talk you can joke you can laugh you can air your views you can say what you have to you can say your fears and nobody's going to bash you because of what you've said they will guide you they will teach you this is what a family unit is all about and today with the globe becoming a little village because of technology and communications and the advancement in the tool you need to know it's even more important for you and I to be closer to our children very close you know we say the parents should be the friends of the children well technically yes they should be a friendship but there must be a little line where they know that's my father that's my mother there has to be a little line so it's friendship but on another level masha Allah you know you cannot just sit with your dad put your legs up take out the weed and start that doesn't happen may Allah forgive us may Allah never let that happen to us I'm giving you an example you know that's my father they reach to be a bit of concern a bit of concern and my beloved parents when you are admonishing your children you do so in a smart way you know we are living in a smart world you have the smart phone you have the smart screen when you admonish your children in a smart way sometimes without talking you can confiscate some technological contraption that they may have for a little while or you give them something let them earn the points to use it when the children are little you can do that easily as they grow older you took one phone and the girl would say my dad took my phone I still got another three under the pillow it happens I have another three under the pillow I recall one young man messaging me about a big problem he had in his home he said now my father confiscated my phone so I said how are you messaging me now he says this phone is not declared it's not declared which means it's under under the mattress under the cover it happens people are sharp so when they grow older you might not be able to fool them that way but when they are young you can say look I have bought an iPad for you you play with it so they play with it they're excited they're into it masha'Allah and the day passes and they cannot even let go then you say now you give it to me when you spent the day in a specific way when you've done this work of yours then when it's the time to play I will give it to you for two hours and here goes one of the quick ways is to turn off the wifi turn off the wifi trust me to do that is a bigger punishment than to slap the child or to really jail the child or to whip the child for them it's a tantrum and a half unless they have the password from next door then it's over may Allah SWT forgive us may Allah SWT forgive us so these are methods of correcting your children that are smart ways of doing things what I have said may not apply in your case there might be a different way there might be something else sometimes you give them a treat your son likes this your daughter likes that you give it to them when they have deserved it because they did something it's a gift of Allah Allah has given you so much you don't need to just throw everything towards your children let them earn it earn it by doing good you know when you go to work every day from time 8 to 5 you get the salary at the end of the week or at the end of the month right if you did not go to work they cut your salary in a lot of cases what did you do you worked hard you worked towards they told you to do something say you are in a factory where they are manufacturing or producing something and you are a person who really does your job very well you might even get a bonus you might even get a prize you might be awarded you might have something extra because of so much in terms of production it's an incentive the same applies if your children would like something consider giving it to them when the day went well when the week went well when everything was okay subhan Allah and don't over penalize your children what that means is the son he might have okay I give you my own example my example when I was little one day we had guests in the home and my grandfather may Allah give him jannah he was there with us and he was looking at me he was he couldn't hear properly you know at that age he was about 86-87 and he came into the lounge when the meal was already done and now there was dessert and ice cream so it was my favorite ice cream and I was there serving the guests so I asked the guests would you like some they said no would you like some no you know what we say in my culture more for me may Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala grant us ease anyway I was a little boy so I took my bowl and I decided to take ice cream now you know when you're young what happens you take a big scoop and you look at it and you say this is my favorite take another scoop put it and my grandfather just watching I promise you it wasn't so bad but I ate it and these people had some tea or something else when they went when they went my grandfather called my mother and he said you see the son of yours you have not taught him manners I'm sure you people have had this happening right you have not taught him manners she says what happened he took all the ice cream himself and the guests he didn't even give them so my mother's looking at me whose story should she believe and she decided you know what the grandfather has already tackled it because he told me you are so greedy you have eaten ice cream you're the big ice cream eater you have what and he kept on going now you know at his age he forgets the next day that he told you but he remembers what you did so he starts all over again and wallahi I promise you he did it for a whole year every time he sees me I was the bad boy ice cream boy so much so that up to this day I feel ashamed when I'm eating ice cream I just look at it I take a little bit I say thank you so much the point is you know a small ice cream thing you don't for one whole year may Allah give him he did it out of love trust me I have no ill feeling I love him so much may Allah give him he was a great man he used to read one Quran every few days he was such a pious person but because of his forgetfulness whatever the reason was the point I want to raise is you cannot go on and on and on for something that your child did that was already gone and over you don't keep reminding them you know you you did this you did that you are a bad child no we are living in an era where you have to tell the child what good the child did you embrace your child you kiss your child I want to ask those who are older than 60 years old here to answer the question within yourself maybe even beyond 50 you answer the question inside how many of you have kissed your sons and daughters question I don't want the answer allowed but I just want you to think about it if you have good news you fulfilled the sunnah if you haven't subhan Allah you know you kiss on the forehead you kiss on the cheeks you give them an embrace you tell them how much you love them how many of you have done this the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam kissed his grandson sallallahu alaihi wasallam and alaqara ibn habis was there he says I have 10 sons how can you kiss your son I don't kiss any one of them so the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam says whoever does not have mercy shall not be shown mercy wow that one statement taught us right up to qiyama that a kiss to your child is not only a sunnah but it's a sign of the mercy and it calls on the mercy of Allah upon you you want the mercy of Allah show mercy upon your children did you hear what I said you want the mercy of Allah upon you show mercy upon your children to begin with may Allah SWT grant us goodness and ease now my brothers and sisters like I said we need to realize who our parents are we need to fulfill their rights we need to respect them we need to speak to them kindly we need to obey their instruction where it is not interfering with what Allah has instructed when it comes to the big decisions such as marriage involve the child it is wrong it is wrong to unilaterally decide who is going to marry your child without them having a say did you hear what I said if they have asked you to do that for them or to help them that I've already spoken about but where you decide I know in some cultures the parents tell the daughter your nikah is in July oh to who you will see what I have chosen a very good guy for you very good guy come July this woman is taken to her nikah is done evening this old man comes into the room who are you your father owed me 60,000 rupees but he told me don't worry you can marry my daughter what what I told you has happened it's a true story قسم I swear by Allah and we call ourselves muslim that child of yours why did the hadith say if you have daughters and you look after them and you give them a good upbringing and you get them married to good homes you will get paradise why did the hadith say that because you are bringing up and raising a child of yours for someone else did you hear this for someone else my daughter subhanAllah she is my daughter I love her I care for her I spent on her but I'm not going to charge the guy like some cultures what they do is they come to the man on the day of the engagement when they are talking about the wedding and they say right I sent this child to private school we paid 20,000 US that's there and then the child has eaten with me so much average to 5 dollars a day so many years that's this much here now you owe me approximately 50,000 US والله some cultures do this and the guy says what are you talking about what are you talking about and then they say no don't worry I give you 50 years to pay 1,000 every year subhanAllah you are enslaving the poor boy he has to start his life with the he's thinking of a house he's thinking of a car now he's got to think of getting a bank loan for this issue here may Allah forgive us if that is the case you are selling your child you will not be able to achieve jannah or paradise because whatever you did you actually got the money of back when you had a daughter it was an investment I'm talking of some cultures it's not applicable perhaps in the culture here but we might have a reverse problem who knows may Allah subhanahu و تعالى grant us goodness we might have a reverse problem make it easy this afternoon I was at the nikah of one of the young brothers of your community and a point I raised I want to repeat it here my brothers my sisters Allah has made nikah and marriage very easy if you do not facilitate it and make it easy for your son or your daughter you are going against the command of Allah you are breaking a sunnah of Rasool Allah and you will not have an answer for Allah on the day of judgment remember this Allah made it easy very easy two minutes nikah is done I'm sure you have attended nikah right? two minutes it's over Allah says make it easy why are you making it hard you are defying Allah subhanahu و تعالى don't do that it's part of the family unit because the family unit is strengthened if you marry a person you want to marry if you marry a person you are happy with there needs to be some form of a spark as well you cannot say look you know what we are taught to look at the dean so I looked at the dean and I'm getting you married we are taught to look at the dean as a point that is the deciding factor that's what is meant but you should be looking at the person it's a sunnah to go and look at someone before you even are engaged it's a sunnah see them talk to them meet them because there needs to be some form of a feeling in the heart yes Masha'Allah she's good looking Masha'Allah he's a handsome guy not that you look at and she says and you suddenly what's going on you know may Allah forgive us I've never heard a woman with that voice but I'm just showing you for example in case there was I would be frightened to not say and take two steps back so you need to talk you might like something you look forward to it so in that way when the union comes forth it is blessed you followed the sunnah you did it in the proper way and now you are ready to live a life and what is the whole purpose of getting married we lose focus it's not just to have a honeymoon to show your friends you saw what type of wife I have and before you know it one of your friends will steal her may Allah forgive us it is happening wallah it's happening I know of a man who divorced his wife because his friend was having an affair with her and later on she married her may Allah forgive all of them but it has happened it is happening and it will happen because we show off what we're not supposed to be showing off you'll be happy your husband is a good man your wife is a very good person masha Allah work hard on the relationship it is a sacrifice it is a test from Allah very big sacrifice work hard on your relationships sometimes we are complaining I've got a problem but son you are the one who delays coming home every night then what problem do you think you're going to have subhan Allah one brother told me you know I had to change the clock because I arrived late at home and I was frightened so worried what my wife might say or might not say subhan Allah yes you might want to resolve a problem but it cannot happen every single day it cannot you owe that to your family build the family unit you will build a society community if the husband is unhappy what is he going to do and if the wife is also unhappy what is she going to do you have a broken home you have society crumbling because then who's going to look after the children and then we have children subhan Allah and we are not looking after them not at all we don't spend time with them we don't take them to the masjid we don't encourage them we don't say good and kind words to them we don't participate in their lives and then you want a good society happy home happy family happy society how will that happen if we have not made an effort in that direction so this is why we say the decision of getting married you need to know you must involve the person getting married you have to involve them let them have the biggest say not you as a father or a mother you can have direction I always say if you participated in your child's life from the beginning they will readily listen to you because they will be a big understanding between you but what do we do these days we don't participate suddenly wherever it suits us we run in and we come in and it suited me to actually come in at this juncture way I must decide who you're going to get married to and suddenly there's disaster already we suffered for 25 years and now we're going to suffer for the rest of our lives may Allah not make us from those may Allah make it easy for our sons and daughters to be married and may we be from among those who facilitate the marriage of our sons and daughters say Ameen masha'Allah masha'Allah may Allah bless us so the reason why Allah has given so much of importance to the children to the parents to the brothers and sisters is because when you have a good relationship when you have learned to resolve your matters together as a family you stand a better chance to resolve your problems as a community and then as a nation and then on a global level the problem let's face facts with us at the moment is in our families we have not solved our problems your brother blood brother mother father the same you don't talk with him why because of 2000 US dollars it is happening you don't talk to him why because his son told your son something and you didn't like it and that's it it broke the two of you and it's over you need to come grow up a little bit you need to understand do you know to have siblings is a gift of Allah to have siblings is a gift of Allah سبحانه و تعالى ask those who don't have a brother or a sister how it was the problem is from a young age we start fighting over petty things petty matters واللهي it's called the sibling rivalry young age small you have a game you didn't give me a chance قياما came قياما didn't have a chance I don't talk to you for two weeks because you didn't give me a chance the game learn to play together learn to teach your children to play together learn that they are all or teach them and you should know as well that they are one they should be understanding each other one of the unique features of a family is that brothers and sisters are not the same sometimes they don't look the same sometimes they don't think the same sometimes they don't like the same things that's a unique feature Allah is preparing you for community, society and the globe at large to say you're going to have to deal with someone who's very different from you how are you going to deal with them I come from quite a big family my brothers and sisters we get along we know the temperament of each one and therefore we allow them that space of theirs allow them the space respect them each one grows at his or her own pace you cannot expect every child to be the same and you don't have to praise one and not praise the other you can praise one in something and the other in another thing but you need to look for where they deserve the praise you say this child masha'Allah doesn't miss Salah at all is there five minutes before the Salah praise the Salah fulfills it Alhamdulillah what a lovely child my other one very very good at school Alhamdulillah he does very well masha'Allah you didn't say he doesn't pray because what is the point of embarrassing your children in front of the others if you have a problem of that nature with them you address it with them you don't have to publicize it and you don't ever say wallahi I know of cases and like I say I've been a counselor for many years and I tell you some real life problems I know of a case where there was a family where one of the daughters is slightly darker in complexion than the others the mother purposely tells her you walk behind us in the mall walk behind I don't want you to walk with us why you are very dark in complexion it doesn't suit this nice happy family I told you moments ago that's a test from Allah you are walking straight towards the wrong direction the opposite direction from Jannah how could you do that dark in complexion I love you light in complexion I love you subhan Allah what does complexion got to do with anything but we've become so dirty and so cheap that for us complexion is everything you look at the markets I'm not sure about this country but perhaps it may be a problem look at the markets how many products to make your skin fair how many products and a lot of the times as soon as you bring it into the country it's called out why be happy with your complexion build your heart wallahi build your heart it's not all about external features you are a good person you as parents need to go out of your way to praise your children to make them feel that they are indeed loved by you no matter what happens and keep guiding them where they are going wrong keep guiding them don't lose hope pray for them how many of us pray for our children how many of us pray for our parents how many of us pray for our brothers or sisters when a problem comes in the home and the relationship is broken for a while do you know what the حديث says ليس الواصل بالمكافئ إنما الواصل الذي او من إذا قطع رحيمه وصلها a good maintainer of family ties and that is a duty given to us from Allah سبحانه و تعالى to maintain family relations and to mend ties a good maintainer is not the one who has a tip for that relationship they give you five dollars you give them five dollars they invited you to the house you invite them to the house they did this for you you do that for them that might be decent but that's not a good maintainer or family ties a good maintainer or family ties is he or she whom when the ties are broken he or she makes the biggest effort to resolve the matter you get up every day phone no please I love you forgive me no please it's okay sometimes you just need to say forgive me and I'm sorry even if you think you are not wrong because if that statement can solve your problem so what so what at the end of the day it's your brother at the end of the day it's your sister may Allah سبحانه و تعالى make it easy for all those who are suffering at the hands of their siblings to resolve their matters and those who are suffering at the hands of their own parents may Allah make it easy for you to resolve your matters so this is the type of behavior some people have they discriminate against their own siblings remember if we do that society will crumble that child will develop for example the example I was giving you the child may develop an attitude they may develop bad habits they will search for love elsewhere they will search for attention in another direction and they will get it but in the wrong way and who is to blame wallahi those who caused it they are to blame and they are answerable to Allah I want you today to promise in your heart that you will do whatever is in your capacity to ensure that your family unit is refilled with love is that a good enough promise yes it is insha'Allah refilled with love go and try go and smile give a gift at least greet each other start somewhere if a relationship has gone sour make sure you do something about it when we have little children we are so excited as they grow older they become our enemies insha'Allah why? because they start making choices that were not according to our dreams so what? adjust your dream like I said adjust it it's fine may Allah make it easy for us my brothers and sisters we need to know that a family unit is a gift from Allah ask those who don't have families ask those who don't have relatives and families you know when the day of Eid comes it's a big issue why is it a big issue? because on one hand there are some who don't have a place to go I was in the UK for the Eid Ul Fitr last year and some were telling me insha'Allah this family Eid the beautiful Eid where we are meeting the Muslim and we are meeting all the people and everyone is happy it has given me an opportunity to interact with brothers and sisters because I am alone one person and I was thinking to myself may Allah make it easy for all of those we don't know how it feels when the day of Eid comes you go to the masjid you read your Salah you come back home to an empty home that is what is there to celebrate Subhan Allah what is there to celebrate yes we would feel happy but at the same time sad that we don't have a big family or we don't even have a family and on the other hand there are people who are complaining about how big the Eid is because now there are too many brothers and sisters too many children we are going to detach and then there is another problem whereby you don't know whether to go for Eid to your house or your wife's house big problems why cause the problems just come up with a solution be polite but firm does it remind you of the sound a little bit earlier be polite very polite be kind smile about it but solve the problem how you make a decision say insha Allah you come to my home Eid al-Adha we will go to your home oh Eid al-Fitr and Adha this year at my home next year at your home insha Allah what's wrong you can take your wife to her family's house especially if she is living nearby you can even say lunch we will have at my home and supper at yours not because you knew you would be full anyway from the lunch but it should be a reality I want to take you and maybe the other Eid will be vice versa there's nothing wrong it is your wife indeed but you need to make sure that if the parents are nearby perhaps in the nearby city make her day once in a while make her Eid it will be Eid for her too I'm so happy I'll call my mother and tell her insha Allah I'm coming for Eid may Allah make it easy for us we need to be balanced people you know people who get married a long time ago were given the advice to be hard hard strict you must be the one who's wearing the pants it's irrelevant who's wearing the pants irrelevant there should be a good understanding between the two of you that's what should happen there should be a good understanding between the two of you and not just the two of you even your children your siblings good understanding you need to give everyone their freedom of thinking and understanding and airing their views etc so on problem comes when we want to impose ourselves every single time upon the rest of the family they become upset with us they are hurt the family unit is also destroyed sometimes when physically we force everyone to live together and we have enough to be able to separate that is a point I want to end with Insha'Allah and that is do you know my brothers and sisters as your children get married there is no merit in keeping them in the same home if you can afford another place no merit people think that's my son he must stay in the house my sons all of them must stay in the house here you know what they'd rather stay next door stay across the road stay 5 minutes away love will increase when they see you you see their children you are happy you are smiling subhan Allah you are okay if they volunteer to stay with you Alhamdulillah but sometimes it creates a disaster because you have people of different generations you see I am looking after my children I am bringing them up according to what I've learned according to my experience according to what I learned from my own parents sometimes I might have my own parents who might want to bring up my children according to their ways that may not be suitable totally for the age that we are living in and therefore you end up fighting with your own father or your own mother regarding your children or your wife does the dirty job for you if that is the case and there is politics and there is a slight bit of a problem before it gets worse the best thing is to come and perhaps shift next door if you need to serve them you shall serve them you must serve them serve them in what way you visit them you take food for them perhaps you are kind to them you will ask them what is needed you will get for them perhaps whatever they need you might get medical attention for them you might want to go with them on a journey once in a while and so on and so forth depending if your mother is a widow for example may Allah make it easy for her you need to take care of her you need to speak and address speak to her and address matters if they have a reason for example is a problem in the home you cannot say that's my mother stomach it stomach it subhan Allah I can't there is a limit I know it's your mother but if your mother is wrong she is wrong what can I do about it you have to say it's my mother give me a little bit of time insha Allah I will try and address this in a nice way then you have to sit with your mother you have to remind her of what she's done you have to remind her of how lovely she is you have to give her so many duas and then you have to raise your one point one point you know mom this is the point and then you raise it in a nice way she might become upset but you know what you have to sometimes be polite but firm polite I'm polite but this is a problem I need to solve it because if you don't it will seep in through the children children start hating their grandparent sometimes because every day they see what's going on they find it too stressful no one is dealing with the matter a day passes two day passes a year, two years twenty years we are still suffering in the same condition why? if you're not a strong person to be able to deal with it then at least respectfully shift out this is how you have a strong family unit the heart the heart will be solid and then the blood flows and it flows thoroughly there is love there is goodness have you noticed something about the heart the heart is not only connected to the blood but it's even connected to your feelings you feel love in where? in your heart there's a close connection between the heart and the mind very close connection my heart I don't know why to this day when they show an image of a heart they actually show a certain shape that is not the shape of the true heart have you noticed? if you haven't pick out your phone and see what's up you'll see that heart that heart that is shaped like this a little V at the bottom with the two bumps at the top that's not the exact shape of your heart inside of you but they've just given it that shape looks nice people draw it what does it mean love I know one marriage that broke because of that emoticon be careful how you use it we always tell people you know you must send romantic messages to your wife the poor guy comes to me he says what could I do I dialed the wrong number man it was the wrong number I sent it to the wrong number wrong number you made a big mistake you made a big mistake there'll be disaster on either side but that heart is something where you feel there is a feeling it pumps wallahi and this feeling needs to be there in a correct way it needs to grow in the right direction if you don't allow it to grow in the right direction it will grow in the wrong direction so we ask Allah to help us resolve our matters for indeed we will then have better homes and what is the fruit of having a beautiful home you will be able to have a beautiful community now you learnt how to solve problems where did I learnt it from my own house my own family members I am very tolerant with your siblings your brothers your sisters be patient be tolerant let them have it their way it does not have to be your way all the time no let them have it their way give them their way sometimes it happens to me as a family I wish to visit someone as a family I wish to go somewhere but some of the members of my family are not interested in coming they'll tell you dad I don't want to come or sometimes my life will tell you I really don't want to come what do you do you cannot keep on saying you shall come I'm the father here I'm the husband no you don't want to come it's okay never mind no problem it's not a very important thing if there is something important you can market the product you need to start talking about the importance of this thing you know end of the week there is a friend of mine he's getting married very close to me he's a really really good guy you know we go back a long long time what am I doing to do with that it's got to do with the fact that I really want you to come so I'm marketing the product I'm telling you you see what a lovely guy then you mention one two things he's done then you mention how good he is then you say you know that perfume that you have yes yes it was his family who gave that to you you know now you see what's happening a day later you can say the guy's getting married in the weekend I think it would be lovely awesome if we all just showed up for five minutes oh my God I started this whole this whole episode two days ago when I started talking to you but I only came out with it today because that was my strategy why am I saying this to show you that it's not just that example anything you want these are your family members be sensitive to their feelings their likes and dislikes talk to them in a nice way you really want something market the product convince them that they need to do telling them to do because today if you force your child trust me they become hypocrites because behind your backs they still do what they wanted to do but if you convince your child even if you're not there they are convinced that they need to do this the problem is we are too lazy we don't have time we don't have the effort the energy to sit and convince look at a man who comes to a young man he wanted to commit adultery so he says oh messenger I want to commit this sin imagine the relationship he had I want to commit this sin how many of us our children would come to us and tell us you know dad I was considering drugs حولا ورقوة إلا بالله may that not happen but it just depicts the closeness of the relationship he says I want to commit this sin and the messenger صلى الله عليه وسلم the best of creation the most noble of all prophets look at what he says he says would you like it if it were done to your mother this is no to your sister no to a daughter no et cetera et cetera he asked a few questions and then he says well everyone is someone's mother someone's sister someone's daughter and he convinced him in a short while you know what I don't want to commit it I don't that was shaitan I will never do it it was easy for someone to say what did you say right take him punish him beat him up that's not the prophetic way the prophetic way is that of love that of kindness that of mercy that of sincere feeling for one another you see someone else's child do something wrong you rather make a du'a for them and try and correct it in the proper way than to quickly put it on facebook quickly announce to the world you know that man you know where I saw his son at the nightclub the son will say uncle what were you doing there you know the story you know the story but that's not fair may Allah SWT I've spoken for exactly an hour and I took out what happened initially may Allah bless us all really reward those who have made this possible all those who have really made this possible including those who have attended here those who are busy with the live stream those who are watching elsewhere the brothers and sisters who have really made a great effort to make this program a huge huge success I really make du'a that Allah bless you all in whatever you are going through may Allah create ease I've been coming to Sri Lanka since I think it's 2009 and for me this was the best trip so far this was the best trip so far it was not possible to have it at another venue because I only confirmed late that I would be coming by that time the venues were all filled for December the baraka and the mercy Allah allowed us to use his house for such a blessed gathering and I'm sure we have really and thoroughly benefited by the will of Allah SWT please go home and don't just say it was a good talk but fill your heart with love for your family members and insha'Allah let it grow even beyond that learn to solve your problems learn to make things easy for your family members to encourage them to give them boosting encouraging words rather than to you know put them down at every moment and every opportunity that you get may Allah bless you all أقول قولي هذا وصلى الله وسلم وبركة على نبينا محمد سبحان الله وبحمده سبحانك الله وبحمدك نشهد الله إله إلا أنت نستغفرك وانتوب إليك


It's Sunday, July 4th, and this is For Good Reason. Welcome to For Good Reason, I'm DJ Grothe. For Good Reason is the radio show, the podcast produced in association with the James Randy Educational Foundation, an international nonprofit whose mission is to advance critical thinking about the paranormal, pseudoscience, and the supernatural. My guest this week joining me again is Paul Kurtz to discuss skepticism when it comes to religion. He's considered by many one of the founders of the worldwide skeptics movement. He's a founder of the committee for the scientific investigation of claims of the paranormal, PsyCOP, and has also been involved with Free Inquiry Magazine and Skeptical Inquirer Magazine for many years. He's a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science and has been featured very widely in the media about UFO abduction and psychic powers and communication with the dead, a whole host of skeptical topics. Thanks again Paul Kurtz for joining me on For Good Reason. Well I'm delighted to join you because you're a skeptic, you ask probing questions, and that's important. Okay, good, I said that right on cue Paul, just joking. To review some of the things you said during our last conversation, for you skepticism is not the emphasis on doubt and the impossibility of knowledge, but it's more affirmative. It's really a way of finding things out. Yes, it's affirmative and it's the necessary ingredient of the educated mind in any field of inquiry. Well, you say any field of inquiry, but you often talk science. You say this kind of skepticism is continuous with science. Well science is the best illustration. The methods of science are the best illustrations of advancing knowledge, namely you have a problem, you formulate a hypothesis, you look for evidence or reasons to support it, you test the claim, and that method used in science so successfully can be used in all areas of human life to some extent. So we just almost started talking about this last time you were on the show, let's get into it now. One of the sacred cows in science has been that science describes what is and religion and ethics describe what ought to be and never the twain shall meet. The old is ought to be. Well they don't think it ought to be, they think that is what is. Those who are religious believe there is a God. Well, no what I'm getting at is that scientists often have argued that religion and science occupy non-overlapping magisteria and that science should say nothing about religion, but I know you and we've had this discussion before, you disagree with that position. Of course. Why not apply it to religion? Why confine it? The reason why it was not applied for religion, it was dangerous. If you become a doubter or an atheist or an agnostic, you suffer the social consequences, though there is great fear in treading it to the area of religion. So you think skepticism, this kind of critical thinking, should be applied to religious claims and not only the kinds of claims that could be studied in a laboratory? Yeah, you need some courage, the courage to question. In many dictatorships you can't apply to politics, it's against the law to do it, you'd be thrown into prison, though the same thing applies in other areas, in democracies as well. Okay, well you're on the show today to really get into this question, should skepticism be applied to religion? So rather than getting off into politics, other topics, let's focus on religion and there's two senses of the term religion that people use, I think, when they have this discussion. One is religion as the practice of religious believers and certainly you could be skeptical of that, you could kind of investigate that stuff scientifically or skeptically, but that's not the only sense of the term that matters and that's not the sense that you think skepticism should be confined to, it also refers to the transcendental and you say skeptics can be warranted in their skepticism of the transcendental. Yes, of course, and that's the major critique of the great skeptics, historically, of David Hume and the Mono World as a good illustration. If you claim you believe in God and you take these divine claims, then you can ask, well what's the evidence for that? Why do you say that? Many people are afraid to raise that question, but we need to challenge religious beliefs. Well, a lot of skeptics say, however, that those religious faith claims are untestable and therefore they're outside the bounds of skepticism. Well, if they're untestable, then you won't believe that, then they're meaningless in one sense. No, we need, people who believe in religion deeply believe in it, they believe it's true and they believe that they have evidence for it. But the reason why I'm a skeptic is because the religion is different so greatly between Islam and Judaism and Christianity and Hinduism. So, you have to bring knowledge to bear in evaluating any claim in religion. Well, the diversity of religion or the diversity of religious claims, that's not itself evidence that they're all false, maybe almost all of them are false and only one is true. No, maybe some of them are true, depending on what you're talking about. But there are parts of religion that seem to be to be truthful. I'm not talking about God necessarily, but the effect of religious belief on a person's life, that claim has been made. Right. Well, let's get back to this testing faith claims. Some people have claims about the veracity of sacred texts and there are, I think, legitimate skeptical ways of looking at these. Oh yes, Mike Golly, that anyone who studies biblical criticism that developed in the 19th century, they go back and read the text. Now the question is, which text, which version of the Bible or the Koran? And you find out that these were written over a period of time and that they're different ways of interpreting them. So they cannot take religious texts as with God's honest truth. The critical historical method they call it and it's a kind of research you're saying based on evidence and reasoning. Well it's the interpretation of meanings. You go back and read the text. There are many ways that you become skeptical, it depends on the translation and you go back and study the historical origins of these flames, other witnesses to revelations and who are they and so when you get into that kind of inquiry, then powerful degrees of skepticism are required. And skepticism is a method, it's not just rejecting those claims out of hand but actually looking into the evidence. No, he'll be minded and examine them. I think it seems to me the closed-minded, fundamentalist atheists who simply reject religion without examination are like the religious believers who simply accept it without sufficient evidence. It applies in all sides. And so you think you're in between those two extremes? Well, I'm a skeptic about religion. I'm also a skeptic about religious atheists, that's another matter. And those are charged words and it's also a kind of polemical phrase, religious atheists, I don't think that... Well they're fundamentalist atheists who reject everything without examination. They said you need to prepare to examine every question. Yeah, another polemical claim and yes, I do not want to get off on that topic, Paul. Let's talk about big skeptics, big name skeptics who are influential in the history of skepticism. They believe in the supernatural still and in God, even though they've been influential at raising awareness about these other kinds of... Who did you have in mind? I'm talking right now, maybe Martin Gardner. Look...  And he was embarrassed about that. He was a great skeptic, played a key role but he held on to a number of religious beliefs. When I would talk to him, his ears would turn red sometimes. Well it's... My understanding is that he didn't hold on to doctrinaire religious beliefs but he's what they would call a fideist. He always said that atheists had the best arguments, the best reasons. He just chose to believe in God anyway. Yes, but he also confessed he didn't have sufficient evidence for that, but he believed it anyway. Well it was like Anthony Flu who was the great skeptic and atheist and in recent years claimed to believe in God as the deus would and that has puzzled many people. Well there's been some speculation that some of that was manipulated by believers kind of manipulated out of him, that he was suffering... Well I think that they did exaggerate but I think both were true. I knew Anthony Flu very well. And at the end he said well maybe the deus conception, not a God that answers prayers and not a God that reveals himself but maybe God as a kind of a principle for interpretation, intelligent design. Well that's... And I disagree with it but that was his position. That sort of notion, you know, the out of work God, the God who started it all but is uninterested in humanity, right? You can't get to that God, you can't even examine those claims, right? Yes, that's a spurious claim that God got everything going. How do you know were you there? What's the evidence for that? The Big Bang? What came before the Big Bang? Maybe there are many Big Bangs, not just one, so you can be very skeptical about that argument. Well in effect, in your book Exuberant Skepticism you say that that kind of fideism or deism is, you use the words illegitimate and irrational, you say that skeptics are completely justified in accepting only those beliefs that are based on evidence and reason and if there's no... I don't want to say completely, but in principle we should base our knowledge upon evidence and reason. Sometimes we have to act and make choices with insufficient evidence. Right, well based on the best evidence or a working theory. But what I'm getting at is you say that when there's no evidence one way or the other, like for the God of deism or the God of fideism, that skeptics should just withhold judgment rather than taking that leap of faith. Well I have the argument that William James, he said, where you don't have evidence either way, the famous American philosopher at the turn of the century, then he will will to believe in God because of moral consequences and other psychological consequences. But I think that argument doesn't hold up. So I think if you don't have evidence either way, then you ought to suspend judgment. But it doesn't follow that you think you can't be a good skeptic if you're a deist. Well, no, I mean only a few of the deists. You can be a theist believing in God who is the person that you prayed over the answers prayers, or you can be a deist, or you can be an agnostic saying there's insufficient evidence either way, or like me, you can be a non-theist. I don't think there's evidence for a God, and until I see any I'm going to doubt it. And you think that's a legitimate skeptical position. It's not based on... You can say you're an atheist, but I prefer saying I'm a non-theist. The reason why I'm hesitant to say I'm an atheist or I am an atheist, I'm a goddamn atheist. The reason why I'm hesitant to say that is because often atheism is converted to a new religion, a holier than our religion of disbelief, and I'm skeptical of people who take that stance, and many have historically. The only reason I'm zeroing in on this is because there's a lot of hand wringing the past year in the skeptics community about the topic of religion, and some people say, oh, you know, deal with any other supernatural or paranormal claim, but don't deal with religion because you'll offend the religious believers in our midst. That's surely, well, if your boss holds religious beliefs, I wouldn't rub his nose in skepticism. So you get in trouble if you do that. If you're a candidate for the presidency, you better avoid that topic. There are lots of practical issues. But I think in principle, you ought to be prepared to examine any questions. And if you don't have evidence, then withhold judgment. Let's talk about the other kind of religious believer. Rather than admitting they have no evidence for their theism, no evidence one way or the other, and they just choose to believe, rather than doing that, they instead say there's good evidence that warrants belief in God. Well, there are people, thoughtful people who believe in God. I don't agree with my atheist friends who say that, will not even listen to the point of view of someone who defends belief in God. But it seems to me the evidence is totally insufficient at this stage in human knowledge. So you think that such claims should not be off limits to the skeptics, just because they're religious claims, that they should be examined like any other sort of claims. What point they should be examined? I don't see why a skeptic should refuse to examine them. If he claims that there's no evidence for astrological horoscopes, who are the astrologers who are going to attack them? Why can't he make a claim that there's insufficient evidence for life after death or salvation by God? It seems to me that you have an intellectual obligation. Now, you may decide not to do it because of social reasons or other complications. But nonetheless, in principle, we should be prepared to apply skepticism to religion.  Well, but I'm using that in quotation marks because it depends on the context. Like you said, you might not want to upset the apple card at Christmas necessarily as family dinner. My people won't even celebrate Christmas. One of my friends, I think that I enjoy Christmas. My friends and my kids' relatives enjoy Christmas. They enjoy getting presents, so do I. That doesn't mean I believe that Santa Claus comes out of chimney or that God has anointed this. Right, so we both know the kind of atheist whose idea of a good time is to only sit in an assembly line and X out in God we trust on all his dollar bills. They were my friends, they were former altar boys that have been abused or they were taken in by the rabbi or they were fundamentalists that were misled. So then they abandoned it. You're talking about embittered atheists who are like one note Johnny's. Yes, that's true. It becomes a holy war. And you know, I can understand it. People, so many atheists have been bruised by religion, by their families. For example, if a gay couple wants to go together and the family is religious, this is verboten and so they've been bruised by religious beliefs and they turn against them strongly and that can be understood. And religion is censored truth. It's repressed women. Many crimes have been created and applied in the name of God. But religion has also done good things. I'm not going to deny that.  No, no, because I think that religious institutions have had a positive function and that's why I believe that atheists, and particularly secular humanists simply can't destroy religion without bringing in other institutions to fulfill those needs, such as the need to celebrate happy occasions or funerals, depends on who dies that may be happy, but certainly not. But you're talking about fellowship and coming together. Yes, of course. Fellowship and friendship and communities. And so churches and mosques and synagogues and temples have provided communities for people to share the values of a good life and you can't overlook that. That's why atheists and secular humanists need to build institutions where communities can gather and share values that they cherish. Paul, I want to talk about a possible inconsistency that I think I see. If you say skeptics should treat religion, that religion should not be off limits and not just religious claims that make empirical claims that you can test somehow, but even claims for which there's no evidence whatsoever, that's within the bounds of skepticism you're saying. Let me ask you, why doesn't Skeptical Enquirer Magazine or Psychop treat religion more? I think sometimes they deal with those topics. If you go back over the years, they deal with those topics. Well, from the start they decided to deal with the paranormal. They decided they were not an atheist magazine and they avoided the basic religious questions. But skeptics elsewhere should do that. The paranormal was big business and someone had to deal with it. Psychic claims and astrological claims and fortune-telling, someone had to criticize that and so Psychop did that and that was important. But you're saying there's more to skepticism than just the paranormal. The notion that skepticism is only narrowly confined to paranormal issues is foolish. Skepticism is a mark of the educated mind, the willingness to doubt claims for which there is insufficient evidence or reasons and it ought to apply in every field of endeavor. If you have the time, if you have the interest, if you have the knowledge to do so because it requires knowledge in many fields so you just can't be a skeptic unless you investigate. Well, and I think that's a point that you've spent decades underscoring. You have to investigate. You can't just in a knee-jerk fashion reject claims.  I think you may have your reasons at that time to say that but in principle at least on both sides you should be willing to investigate. You just mentioned that Skeptical Inquirer is not an atheist magazine. Psychop is not an atheist organization. No, it's not an atheist organization. Similarly, the James Randi Educational Foundation is not set up to advance atheism. That's not our mission. Of course, and Randi does a brilliant job in critically examining how people are hoodwinked, how what appears to be magic can be given a perfectly prosaic explanation and that's important as a form of education. So I agree with you that these national skeptics outfits are not atheist per se but at the same time that religion should not be treated with kid gloves. Well, I see no objection to paranormalist groups dealing with religion. I mean, there are many topics that they could deal with. Yes, indeed. And they have. I mean, for example, faith healing. I spent a lot of time in that. Can people be healed by prayer? It's insufficient evidence. But depending on the illness, it may be psychosomatic. Correct. And that's an important question. Or even the claim, you know, God exists and here are my 10 good reasons why I believe he's real. That's within the bounds. Yes. I think, of course, the claim since religion has been among the most powerful institutions in human history and clash and disagree. And this leads to violence as the truth throughout the world today. Then we have an obligation, moral obligation to critically examine the claim and to compare them and to reject those that are painfully false. So we've talked about this before. I also just mentioned a second ago that, you know, the JREF is not an atheist organization. Speaking for the JREF, we don't push skepticism of religion only. We're not an atheist organization. No. And more to the point, I really think that nonprofits are best when they don't try to do everything. They instead have focused missions. Well, they can't do everything in nonprofits in many areas. So there are areas of specialism. And I think the magicians such as, or the conjurers such as Randy and others or Martin Gardner who show how what appear to be mysterious paranormal can be easily explained. That's vital in the beginning of human knowledge. I want to finish up by talking about religious skeptics again and thinking of them as allies in this endeavored, advanced skepticism in society. Now, when you say religious skeptics, you mean skeptics or skeptical about religion, unless they're the religious. Oh, good point. I meant to say skeptics who in fact do believe in God. You're right. Oh, there are skeptics who believe in God. Yeah, we spoke about Martin Gardner. Yeah, exactly. And so my question is, if skepticism says religion is not off limits, but religious folks who happen to share skeptical values about these other areas of inquiry, the paranormal or pseudoscience, you know, being skeptical of religion may ruffle their feathers. Is it just good strategy to not touch religion for that reason? Well, you know, you can you can be skeptical about theories and economics. And it's vital that we have that. And the person on the other side may be devout. But so you can work with people on many projects. And surely we don't all agree on everything. So we have different economic, political, and religious beliefs. I'm prepared to work with religious people. I find most religious people find decent, upright citizens. And I work with them on a whole number of projects. I differ with them about their religious claims. And it may be that I'm in a situation where I can present my doubt that I would do so. So you could be skeptical of your friend's beliefs and still work with your friend to advance. Of course, yes. Yeah, but the point you're making, look, it's a fine line, but it's a line we should we should walk. Yes, that is the case. I mean, I think that many religious people will be impressed with James Randi and say hurrah, hurrah, and how he exposes a paranormal claim. But they can have their own beliefs without a turning on them. And that's true in all areas. Who agrees with everything that you agree is true or what I believe is true? Well, very few people. So we have wide diversity of beliefs in society. And skeptics should recognize that. Well, Paul, much appreciate the discussion. Thanks for joining me again on For Good Reason. I feel like we could just keep going for hours, but I can.  And the best kind of radio is those in which the moderator is probing. So you're a probing skeptic, and I appreciate that. Well, I appreciate you saying that. It sounded a little kinky there for a second, probing skeptic, but I'll take it. Thank you, Paul, and for being on the show again. For Good Reason is produced by Thomas Donnelly and recorded from St. Louis, Missouri. For Good Reason's music is composed for us by MA Award-nominated Gary Stockdale. Christina Stevens contributed to today's show. I'm your host, DJ Grothe.