Okay. Hello everybody and welcome to the June 2018 Wikimedia Foundation Metrics meeting. We're going to start off today with our agenda. We have two other than the regular movement update. We have two presentations. We have Joe Metazzoni with the map improvements, the recent map improvements on the projects, as well as James Forster and Abby Ripstra who will be showing a presentation on their recent work on trying to understand the many different workflows that our editors use across the projects. If you can, if you can save your questions for after all the presentations, we're going to have a question mic over here on my left in the office and Joe Sutherland as user Fox will be in Wikimedia Dash Office on IOC as well as trying to watch the YouTube chat and comments if there are any questions there. Starting off with the movement update. We had last Wednesday on June 20th. The Wikimedia Foundation turned 15, being founded 15 years ago in Florida before finally moving up here a couple years later. We also wrapped up the Wikimedia Hackathon, the annual hackathon. I don't know what number this was, but with over 240 participants in 27 countries, about 20% of those participants were women. That wrapped up right at the end of May. As well as the Wikimedia Foundation joined the Equals Partnership, which is a growing network of groups, both corporations, non-profits, UN groups that are working together to bridge the gender gap across the digital landscape, not only on the Internet but through the technical sphere. And coming up in July, first off, we have the second Celtic Not Conference, which is hosted by the National Library of Wales and Wikimedia UK, looking on both how Wikimedia projects can help to work on both Celtic languages and indigenous languages in general. We also have the 14th annual Wikimania, which will be held this year for the first time in sub-Saharan Africa, in Cape Town, South Africa. This year's conference is going to be co-organized by both the Wikimedia Foundation and Wikimedia South Africa, and more than 600 attendees are expected. For those who aren't able to attend, we are hoping to get as many of the big presentations up early and during the conference so that people can watch those as well. And coming up, we will have Joe Matazzoni talking about map approvals. Wait, I need the clicker though. Okay. Good morning. I'm Joe Matazzoni. I'm going to talk about a project that the collaboration team is just finishing up that we hope will make the wide world just a little bit easier to understand. Oops, why am I not on my, oh, they're not the same? Yeah, go ahead and put the slides over there. All right. Great. And so, it's called Map Improvements 2018. Imagine, if you will, that you wanted to learn about a foreign land, but the only map you had was in a mysterious script that you couldn't read. That sounds like a plot twist from some adventure story, but it's actually the situation that readers on the Wikis often found themselves in until quite recently. So what do I mean by that? If you look closely here, you'll see that this map is a babble of different languages and alphabets. And it's demonstrating one of the main limitations that our Wiki Map service has had until very recently, which is that it displayed maps in the language of the territory mapped rather than of the reader. We could call that the local language. So it displays it in the local language. And if you look at this map, so you'll see that there are no fewer than eight completely different alphabets that are being displayed here. This is from right to left. That's Japanese, Korean, Chinese. Oh, I hit the wrong thing. Chinese, Laotian, Thai, Burmese, Latin script for India, and up here in Kyrgyzstan, the Cyrillic script. So not a great user experience, right? Let's back up a little bit. The maps on the Wikis are created by an extension called Cartographer, and they have some great advantages. They're pretty easy to make. All you really need to do is add the latitude and longitude, and the software will generate it automatically. You can do that, if you're a programmer, you can do that programmatically. If you're not, you can actually use Visual Editor to just drag the map into the right location and place it. They're open source. They use geodata from the OpenStreetMap project, which is an open source project. And they have a lot of information. You can pan them. You can zoom them. You can add markers and shaded shapes to highlight certain features and things like that.  So, potentially very useful. Also, of course, a traditional form of data for encyclopedias, which have always been full of maps. But there's problems. Did I not change? No, this one's not staying up. That's why I'm getting confused. So there's some problems. We talked about the language support that they display only in the local language. Also, the technology was in need of a lot of updating and the standardization and general repair. And partly for those reasons, these were not available on... Yeah, this is still not updating. Okay. These were not available on most Wikipedia's. On the vast majority of Wikipedia's, you could link to an interactive map, but editors couldn't place it right on the page using a feature called MapFrame that embeds it on the page. So problems, but help was on the way. Some of you know that Santa Dogs are all agents of the community wish list, highly trained in wish granting. And in 2017, the maps community got behind the wish list proposal cartographer improvements and voted it to be the number one wish that year. And its main wish was map internationalization, which means to display the map in the language of the user. And so in January of this year, the collaboration team got the assignment to fix the various problems that I've just been talking about. And we began a six-month engagement to do that called Map Improvements 2018. And teaching cartographers about map choreographer to display maps in every language on the planet and script was a challenge, needless to say. I'm going to spare you the gory details of that. But suffice to say that after a lot of painstaking work last month, we in fact released map internationalization and I could show some screenshots, but I'm going to try a live demo. So Brendan, if you would, the map here is the one you were just looking at with the babble of different languages. And I'm going to use a new command that we created called lang equals to change that to English. So thank you. This is how this map would display on English speaking wiki. And here's how it would display on a Russian wiki. Now it's in Cyrillic. Here's how it would display on a French wiki. I could do this all day. It's like magic, right? So let's see. At the same time, oh, I'll just mention. So what I'm doing here, that's not how it would work on the wiki. I'm just doing this for the demo. On the wiki, the way it works is it would, the software tries to display every feature in, a map feature in the language, the content language of that wiki. And if it can't find a name in that language for that feature, because this is an open source project, so the data that's available varies from language to language in place to place. There's a whole fallback protocol of it tries to use certain fallback languages that have been defined and then it tries to do some other things and it eventually falls back to the local language. And you can actually see that's happening here in a couple places where it's gone, fallen back to Chinese. And yeah, so anyway, that's how it works. And at the same time as we, oops, that doesn't advance. At the same time as we released map internationalization, we also released the ability to embed maps directly on the page to 277 wikipedia's that previously lacked the feature, including English wikipedia. And in the week since we did that, our editors have been very busy. And what you see here is a map frame map that's inside an info box on a page that English wikipedia's, I guess it's some sort of project are using to trace the location of roads and highways. And you can see what I mean by an interactive map. I can pan this, I can zoom in on the broncs here, et cetera. And volunteers can code templates like this to pull latitude and longitude data from wiki data and then marry that with the open street map data and display maps like this on hundreds or thousands of pages at once. And so I poked around the wikis a little bit to find a few examples of that. And these are all just from wikis that didn't have the feature until a few weeks ago. Koreans are using map frame to pinpoint the location of metro stations. Italians are mapping the locations of football stadiums. In Estonia, they've really gone all in and they've just gone ahead and made this the template for all towns and cities. And there's over 10,000 of these on Estonian wiki. And Bengalis are mapping the locations of American universities, like my own alma mater, UC Berkeley. And before I leave the demo, I wanted to show you an example of a little bit fancier map that I found on English Wikipedia. Somebody really went a little wild here and they've mapped the location of every football stadium in the UK and added some of the fancier feature. You can see he's added all these little markers and for each marker, there's a photograph and a link to the Wikipedia page. So pretty cool. Thank you, thank you. And back to the slide deck please. Okay, there were my backup slides in case I didn't work. And right, so I'm happy to say that in the week since the release, these features have been put to use on the wikis and users have already placed more than 60,000 of these map frame maps on the wikis just since May. And a lot of that through the templates that I was showing you. And let's see. So the map improvements project did a lot more than just internationalization. If you're curious, you can read about it on this page, which is the pointer, this page, which is the project page. If you're interested in trying out map frame maps, cartographer maps, there's a really nice help page that Chris Corner or Liaison on the project completely rewrote. These links are also very useful. They have to do with some of the limitations of the features and work arounds that we provided for those. So those are interesting if you really get into it. And the map improvements project is complete as of this Friday. It was a six-months engagement, so a collab team is really getting out of the mapping business. But reading, what are they called? Reading engineering. We'll be taking over maintenance for these features. So this is the page where that work will be documented and discussed. So you can go there if you're interested. I wanted to give credit to the people who actually did all this work. This was officially a collaboration team joint, but we were really helped a lot by the members of the former maps team who really, you know, had essential expertise and gave us, were very generous with their advice. So a round of applause for all these people. Thank you guys.  And in closing, I will just say that mapping is one great way to explore and understand the world. And I hope some of these new features will encourage you to try to give it a try. Thank you. Thank you, Joe. Another round of applause for Joe. Then up next we have James Forester and Abby Ripster who are going to be talking about the many different workflows editors use on the projects. And they're researching to that. Hello, Mike Chek. Mike Chek? So hello, everyone. I'm James. And I'm Abby. So, okay, my advance. Okay. So we're going to talk about the contribution tax on a project we worked on. And contributions by which we mean the work of donating content, including editing and fixing things, adding media, and in all the other ways you can contribute are the lifeblood of our wikis. So these volunteer efforts happen through a whole bunch of different workflows. And our goal of this project was to help teams at the foundation understand which of the workflows were most important to improve the experience for people. So contribution to Wikipedia is complex and it's hard to see as a whole. Understanding the workflows, like how they work together, the steps, the tools, the permissions that are required to accomplish them are key to building better experiences. So specifically we needed to help the mobile platform teams decide which workflows should be improved for people editing on mobile devices. So James is going to walk through a few ways, several ways you can accomplish one workflow to demonstrate the variation. Thanks, Abby.  So this is just one workflow, which is you come across something and you think it's spam. This is what it looks like when you're on the Chinese Wikipedia on desktop using visual editor and you want to nominate it as spam. You slap in a template. But on Russian, no, no, that was good. On Russian, if you're in Wikitext, it's a different template. Obviously, the interface looks quite different. On Korean, it looks, again, very different on mobile and, again, another template you have to know about. And finally, some communities like here, the Indo Wikipedia, have special community-built tools that help you guide you through the process and knows about all the different things to do. So, overall, what we wanted to do is really understand the whole kind of picture across all the Wikis that we were looking at, really understanding the taxonomy of workflows and what the issues were and where we could help. So what did we actually make? So the first thing is a taxonomy. So we wanted to understand, when we talk about contributions, what do we mean? And we broke this down into a few areas that we then kind of have these nice grand overwhelming terms for them. So we've got creation and curation, which are pretty similar, but people find that curation is a very important thing to pull out as a separate thing. Moderation is much more about change than about content. So people will be looking at a user, looking at an edit, looking at change in policy. Then finally, there were three areas that we intentionally pushed us out of scope because we felt that they weren't right for us. Financial contributions are very big and very important, but also pretty different from content contribution. Multimedia has the structure data on Commons project already going for it and we didn't want to interfere with their work. And governance is really big and meaty, but things like, you know, how people engage with an RFC is pretty hard to engage with. So we built an analysis of the five Wikis we looked at. So that's English, French, Korean, Czech, and Hindi Wikipedia's. We did that with our community ambassadors, which is great. And across the whole thing, we ended up identifying 88 workflows that were in scope and about 500 steps across those 88 workflows. So here's one of those workflows. This is what it actually looks like. So you have a workflow built up of multiple steps. Some of those steps, you make a choice. So you do one A or one B and that can be dependent on the content, on the user, on the Wiki. Some steps are done by different people. Each step, theoretically, can be done by a different person. Sometimes they're done by the same person. And sometimes they're optional. At the end of the workflow, you end up, you know, having completed the workflow and sometimes that's a success, sometimes a failure, but it's over. So we then, after, sorry, next, yeah, we then wanted to analyze those steps and those workflows. So we built a set of criteria, two kind of groups of criteria, one about users, one about how difficult it is. Do you need to know a lot of process? Do you need to be familiar with technology? Do you need to understand the subject really well? The other very different is about mobile. As Abby said, we wanted to build this for mobile users especially. And so we're looking at how possible would this be to support a mobile, not necessarily how good is it right now. So we analyzed those 10 criteria, two groups of five, against all 550-ish rows. So we ended up with 5,500 ratings, which is so fun, but really important. And then 5,500 ratings is quite a lot to people to get their heads around. So instead, we built a waiting matrix so that teams could identify this criterion is particularly important for users on Android or iOS because they're targeting different users. So that simplified things a bit. So Abby is going to talk about show, don't tell. So not only did we create the master inventory, the criteria and the waiting system, we created a visualization system. Carolyn Lamedo, a designer here at the foundation, thank you Carolyn, designed the system. And it's flexible and it consists of elements that can be mixed and matched to describe a workflow. So visualizing the workflows is important for multidisciplinary teams to be able to understand the workflows and the details of them in the same way so they can collaborate well to improve the experience. So here are the basic elements of the system. You can see the user's decisions and the reasoning for that decision along with their intention as they start the workflow. And then there's a box that describes each step in a workflow. So the step is named along with any role or tools that are required for it to be accomplished. And you can also see within each step which wiki that step is available on. And of course, there's lots of decisions that have to take place. So here's an example of a visualized workflow. It's about tagging an article or section for improvement. There's a handful of things that could be that an article or section could be tagged for improvement. They're all represented here. This big zoomed in one is about tagging an article or section as needing more context. So now James is going to walk you through the details of one workflow. Thank you, Abby. So as Abby said, we ended up with these pretty impressively huge workflow diagrams. So this represents corporate violation deletion. The workflows as they exist across the five wikis we studied, not every step of all of these bits of the workflow exists on all five wikis. And some of them you're only able to take part in if you have particular rights or a particular context. So let's kind of walk through very quickly what that would look like. So you found an article. You think it's a copy of IO. What do you do next? Well, you have to make a decision. What process are you going to follow? What's the right thing for you in this context? In this case, we're going to go down the, I think it's maybe a copyright violation. So the way that works is you tag the page as, hey, I think this is a copyright violation. So you tag it with a template. Then someone comes along and reviews that tag and goes, yeah, I agree, or no, I disagree. In this case, they agree and they add it to the listing. There's an optional step to inform the user. Hey, this article you wrote has been nominated. In this case, we won't do that. There's another optional step where people get to come along and say, hey, I'm commenting. I think this is, is not, and so on and so forth. And finally, someone, an admin generally comes along and makes an assessment as to agree, yes, this is a problem and does delete it or no, they disagree and they delist it. So in total, we ended up with 10 top workflows. So this is based on those criteria and selection and weightings that we talked about with the teams. So these are the big 10. They're not necessarily big in terms of numbers, although almost all of them are pretty large in aggregate user flow. But in particular, they are really critical. Some of them are pretty simple, like tagging a page. Some of them are really hard, like reviewing the raw feed of edits patrolling. That's pretty big workflow. And so that's the kind of pinnacle of what we pulled out and the help the teams look at. Now back to Abby. Not only is this for informing teams in the foundation about which are the workflows that we need to improve. It's also for everybody, you can use it. So there's a copy of, there's a copy of the master inventory available on the media wiki page for the project. So and the visualization system and everything is there too. So here are some things that you can do with the taxonomy, you can learn about the details of a specific edit workflow by going into the master inventory and finding it and checking it out, seeing all the details. Or if it's one of the workflows that's been visualized already, you can go find that visualization and walk through it the way James just walked you through one. So as James said, the master inventory contains workflows from Czech, English, Hindi, French and Korean wikis. And so you can go and look at the workflows of one wiki and see, you know, does it use hot cat? Does it use, you know, what are the things that it uses? How are they workflows accomplished? You can also go and compare across wikis and see, you know, between English and Hindi or Hindi and French, what are the, how do the workflows vary? Do they use what kind of gadgets or things are used or or not? And you can also contribute to the taxonomy. It's not only a one way thing. You can make a copy of the master inventory and add the workflows from your wiki if they're not already there. Make a copy and then if you need help, we'll be happy to help you with that. You can also build out a workflow that's not already visualized by using the visualization system. All the elements are on the wiki page as SVG files, which you can use a vector editor, graphics editor tool to use. There's some open source ones there, too, listed. And it would be great to be able to see the system grow. So it would be lovely if people would contribute. James and I are keeping an eye on the talk page. So if anyone needs help or has questions or suggestions, or if you build out your wiki's workflows, add them back there, add your visualizations back. So we'd love to see it grow. So thank you. Awesome. Thank you very much. And then you can probably sit close, because now it's the question and answer time for all those questions you've been holding deeply on to and weren't allowed to ask. Again, we have a question mic here in the audience in the office, and Joe will be on IRC and trying to watch a YouTube chat in case there are any questions there. Maria just lined up. Do you want to go first? Hi, this is Maria from Community Engagement. Not very tall. I have a question for the workflows presentation. Thank you so much for making that. I think that's awesome. It has, I think, so much potential. And can I ask two questions? Okay, so the first one is how did you choose the wiki's that you looked at? Hey, so how do we choose the wiki's? So initially we decided we wanted to do English, because that's the one I understood myself pretty well as a community member from English since a long time ago. We also worked with community ambassadors that we already had at the foundation for different tasks already. So from the New Readers project, we had Sadeep, who speaks Hindi from the Hindi community, and so could tell us about the Hindi community and was willing to help us out, which was great. And for the New Editors project, we had Revi from Korean and Martin from Czech Wiki's. So we already had those kind of close relationships, which really helped make that the right decision. But we also, like it wasn't just happenstance, we were also, you know, there's a reason we were working with those communities in the first place from those projects, which is that we think that they capture some of the kind of diversity around size, around different community dynamics that we wanted to look at and understand. Cool. And the other question I have is, I see that this has a lot of potential to cross this data with specific thematic areas to identify if, when you have to make a decision, is there bias if it refers, in reference to a certain topic. So one case study that I'm thinking about is all the work being done to reduce the gender gap, right? And so one common story that people hear is biographies of women get deleted more easily than those of men. And so is there a possibility of crossing this data with the data that you just mined? And how would that work? And if, yeah. Yeah. So that's a good question. To which the quick answer is I don't know. Abby, do you want to? I don't really have an idea how to do that. Do you have? Well, I think what would need to happen is that this process needs to happen again with a focus on a specific theme, maybe. So looking at specifically, for example, these workflows when it comes to content about women or these workflows when it comes to content about a specific village in a town, something like that. Okay. I mean, this content is the content inside the master inventory is about the workflows themselves rather than the content within them. But if there are certain workflows that have a particular that facilitated bias, we should find those right? Right? Yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah, I'd say that. So the idea with this work is to be the kind of starting point for looking in audiences to support and better, you know, help the community members doing those workflows. And certainly a key part of that would be thinking, Hey, this workflow is too easy. So for example, you know, one of the workflows is tagging an article that this needs cleanup. But if it's easy to tag an article of cleanup and hard to actually know whether or not it's cleaned up, then you build up problems in the community, right? And that's not specific to a bias issue. That's like in general, you have to be careful that your tools make things better, not worse. I think here, I'm speaking out of term, I'm sure colleagues across audiences will be really carefully thinking about that. And I think the bias issue coming in on those on those workflows is something really serious to consider when we're extending when we're supporting or potentially transforming those. Thank you. Thank you. Joe or anything? Yes. This question is kind of it's for the it's for Joe and the and everyone, I guess, who worked on maps. I've heard there are licensing, I'm just reading it verbatim. I heard there are licensing considerations that come into play when editing or displaying map information on wiki because OSM OpenStreet map uses a different license than Wikipedia. Could you talk a little bit more about how licensing works when wikimedia sites display OpenStreet maps or changes information that was originally placed there? I will say Chris Kerner has kind of already given a half answer to this on the RC. I'm not aware of Ryan, do you know? Oh, you got a mic right there. I mean, I can I can kind of comment on that very briefly. I'm not a lawyer, so please don't take anything I say as the gospel. But my understanding is that the copyright and the licensing on the data in OpenStreet map is on the data set and like the collection of data and how it is presented. The individual pieces of data themselves are not copyrighted or copyrightable. And so unless like we are reproducing like verbatim like the exact set of data in a way that is in a way that matches how OpenStreet map is presenting it, then I think like we get around a lot of the licensing issues. For example, like we are using a different styling for the data. So like we actually present different data than you see on OpenStreet map. Like you might not see like labels. Yeah, we show a particular subset. So you won't see like the same labels.  Yeah, there's a lot of stuff that's different if you compare like our maps with OpenStreet maps. But again, like there are probably other issues related to that that I don't know about and not covering. Yeah, sorry, we don't know that did not come up. That's good. Okay, tell me to go. Do you want a question? I have another one about OpenStreet maps in a second. We can flip back in. Yeah, I have a question about the taxonomy project. It looks super interesting, but I think it's also really useful right now as we focus on mobile contributions. I was wondering if you can say anything about what you found about the frequency of contributions. So I saw in the inventory that you actually looked at how often each workflow is being used per day, right? And so do we have information what are the most important, quantitatively speaking workflows? And also, if you talk about the week three areas, creation and curation moderation, you have an idea now what people spend most of the time or edits on how many editors are active in each area. And that's, I should say that's a question that's on our mind with the Web Team right now, as you probably know. Yeah, so the first thing I'm going to say is numbers do not tell you the whole picture. There are, you know, if there are half a million vandalism edits every day that are reverted immediately by a bot, that's a million edits that happen every day with no value added. At the same time, you know, one single edit could create an article in a beautiful state that really helps a lot of people. So like numbers are not great as a proxy for this. There's also some workflows just don't happen as often. You know, people create accounts by the tens of thousands a day. People move articles by the thousands a day. People make edits by the tens of thousands a day. And like, you know, is moving an article more important than creating an account? Maybe, maybe not. You know, it depends whether the contributor is really valuable and whether the move is good. So with that said, yeah, there are clearly some workflows which are not as important because they don't happen as often, right? So for example, some communities don't bother having a separate workflow for particular kinds of deletion because it doesn't happen often enough for their community to worry about it as a special case. And instead, they just deal with it as they go. And so building specialist tools to help out with, you know, so one of the examples that came up is you email someone because you found a blog post that you think is really great and should be an article and they email back giving you a license to put it on Wikipedia and then you copy and paste it and tell permission, you know, really complex workflows. We could build tools to support that, but that happens like three times a month on the English Wikipedia that we could find. And so that's not a useful place to focus efforts and support community members. And also it varies by wiki. So obviously English Wikipedia is very large, but also the nature of the work is different on different wikis. So Hindi wiki is much more in the kind of article creation and adjustment phase, unless on the article polishing phase as a community. And so the nature of the edits that happened there is there is a bit to English or Czech or Korean. I'm now petering out of answers to the question you asked, not because you didn't have a good question, but because I've lost track of my thread. It's really important and we should measure more of it. Yeah. There is there are numbers of how frequently it happens within the spreadsheet. So you can go and check it out. Some there's question marks because it wasn't easy to determine for everything. Yeah. So for example, if I am on doing an edit because it was bad or I'm doing an edit because I'm vandalizing, you know, distinguishing between those two is pretty challenging from a kind of programmatic perspective. I have another question from apps from RC real quick. Sorry, who's the mic? It's very, very broad. Sorry, not from apps. I should say workflows, but you're still there. My apologies. Hello. Would standardizing workflows be a good idea? Yes, that is a very good question. So the purpose of this work is not to standardize workflows, it's to understand how workflows are different between different wikis and where there are common issues and uncommon issues, different issues, not uncommon. So I think the way workflows operate is right now is very much decided by communities on their own. And I think there's no real justification for trying to get communities to change workflows, unless there's something better in it for that community. So if there is a cool tool that helps you do the workflow in a better way, if only you were to change your workflow like this, then maybe that is useful to the community, but that should still be something for the community to decide in that case. Some wikis have multiple communities that operate in different ways to do the same workflow in different ways as well. So it's not like there's one monolithic community on the English Wikipedia, for instance. But yeah, we're not pushing for, hey, there should be one size fits all kind of policies. And in particular, wikis with five active users and wikis with half a million active users are radically different in the kind of nature of workflows that will actually work. I'm Joe, I'm visiting. Very honored to be here, part of Wolf-Holens-Werdinger Project with Zach and Heather. And new to the organization, so just a question. But if the taxonomy is designed to help contributors, and you know, we've heard a little bit about the new readers project, do you have any strategies for how to disseminate this tool better in the community so that it's more widely adopted? Well, it's designed to help people understand the wikis and also the teams to decide which ones to focus on. So a couple purposes. And we don't have a strategy necessarily beyond. We've done this project and we are communicating about it now. It's available on the wikimedia page. And we're going to have a blog post. So that's the extent of our strategy at this point. So we're going to have a really valuable tool and it'd be great to get it in the hands of the community. Yeah, people can download and use it right now, too, from that page. I have a question for you guys. I think I heard you say that one of the purposes was to help identify likely targets for mobile teams to turn into mobile workflows. So I think that's a good question. And I think that's a good question. So, I think that's a good question. And if you're talking about, for mobile teams to turn into mobile workflows, did you, I know that you probably haven't made any official determinations and that may be somebody else's work, but did you come up with any likely candidates? There's that list. James, do you want to talk to this? Since you're the master of the waiting to talk about them in a great deal of detail. A, because I don't want to write checks, I can't cash. And that's up to the product managers of the individual platforms and what they're building. But the other thing is that the difference between value and between these workflows kind of matters depending on what kind of audience you're trying to serve. So for example, adding an image or video audio 3D item to a page. So that's something where there's potentially quite a lot of value to readers on articles, especially from wikis that are smaller and less well illustrated. And where the structure data on Commons work is hopefully gonna make searching for media much better. And so it make it much easier, much more pleasant activity to automatically suggest five items that might really illustrate this article well in Hindi that doesn't currently have any images. But yeah, I mean, I'm very happy to go on at length about these individual workflows, but I'm not sure whether it's great. Yeah. Yeah, so these are the priorities against the waiting criteria that we had earlier. So that covers both kind of ease of use and potential mobile ability. So not necessarily tomorrow, editing images is gonna be great, but this is an area to focus on. I have anything else on? Sorry, James, I do have one more question from maps. Keep making you stand up, it's a good exercise for you. I know the idea, I'm just gonna read these one for everyone as well, cause it's quite long. I know the idea of bringing OpenStreetMap itself into the wikimedia fold has been kicked around at various times, but we also didn't have a dedicated maps team anymore because of reasons that don't reflect lack of importance for continued development in that area. Beyond maintenance for new maps improvements, what are the bigger picture plans for moving maps forward? Yeah, I think that maps for the moment is gonna stand pat, and there won't be a lot of development of that media type in the foreseeable future. It's an important form of multimedia, but it's not a strategic priority for the company to have a full featured mapping service. So I think the team reading engineering will be doing bug fixing and making sure that it keeps working, but I don't think there will be a lot of product enhancement for that in its plan. Janie? Hello. Just an addition to that, the answer is, the reason why the collaboration team spent five to six months working on maps this year is because people voted making improvements to Cartographer up to number one on the community wishlist survey back in November and December. We are absolutely encouraging people, especially folks who are really interested in maps, were amazingly successful at getting it up to the top of the survey last year. So if that happens again this year or in future years, if folks have improvements that they wanna see to the maps project, the community wishlist survey is gonna be the way that we will get that to happen and folks will get dedicated engineering resources. Thank you. Oh, okay, okay. Last call, any other questions on IRC or anybody else in the office that wants to ask? All right, then we move on to a slightly different, oh, before we move on to Wiki Love, just remember that we need your help, whether you're a foundation staff member, a affiliate member, a community member, all of the above. We need your help to make sure that this stays a relevant and interesting meeting. And so please submit your ideas, presentations that you wanna see or presentations that you wanna give up on Meta. We have a page already set up right there. And remember that you don't need to be a staff member. You don't need to be an affiliate member if you wanna give one of those presentations. If you think you have something interesting to present to everybody. And with that, we'll have Wiki Love. So if there's anybody who wants to give out a shout out to either an individual or a group or thank you, just you can head to the mic in here again or Joe can collect it on IRC, anything else? Anybody? I can start off just with the communications team, especially Greg who's not here and Zach, but I know sort of everybody worked on, there was an awesome little party that we set up here for the 15th anniversary that came together relatively quickly and had a beautiful cake and it was very nice. You stick around after this, there might be a small little smidgen of that that we've shown and a pinata, which went headless with one big swipe from Robert. I'll just quickly squeeze one in from IRC. Wiki Love to Portuguese Wikipedia for reaching one million articles. Then in the office. Is this on? Great. I wanna thank additional people involved with the foundation 15th birthday party, Robert, Sasha, Lynette, everybody who came together to put it together, Brendan, who put all these computers together last minute. Also just general Wiki Love for Brendan, getting most of these World Cup matches on. It's been really great, right? Nice work, Brendan. Hello, I don't actually know all of the people who were involved in this, so I'm just gonna say the people who organized the Wikimedia Foundation's involvement in the LGBT Pride Parade this last Sunday. Thank you so much. There was a good bunch of people. I think it was somewhere around what, like 40 people marching, which was really exciting. It was fun and I think it makes a lot of people at the organization feel more connected. It was especially nice as we were marching to see people who were really excited to see us and our work and were really appreciative.  They were so happy to see us there. I love Wikipedia and I know of at least two instances, I heard one of them, where people along the way yelled out, thank you for getting me through college. So there you go, thanks to all the organizers for that. Definitely, it was a lot of fun. More and more people seemed to actually know who we are, even though everything says Wikimedia. Maria, did you have something? I want to thank Moriel for being, hi, this is Maria, for being such a wonderful leader and an inspiration and opening spaces for dialogue for many of us. Anything else on IRC, Joe? Anything else in the office? And with that, I think we will wrap up. Thank you everybody for coming. The next meeting will be there. I'll see many of you in Wikimedia. And for those who are interested, you can take a small look at what we just put up on the screen, which was a little board that we got together for the party in the office of what other people looked at, like at 15. Thank you.


Okay friends, welcome back to the channel. Today I'm going to be taking you on a week of moonlighting as a physician. Moonlighting, what's that you say? We'll get into it more into this video, but it's an effective strategy that I've been using to make some extra money in residency as a physician. But today I'm going to be taking you on a moonlighting night shift from 7pm to 7am as a nighttime medicine physician. So it's time for us to grab all my stuff, coffee, chargers, and get ready to head to the hospital. Hey friends, so today is going to be night three of three for this week of moonlighting. So before we talk about the rest of the video, let's actually talk about what moonlighting is. Now moonlighting is basically a fancy phrase for working overtime and covering open shifts as a doctor. With the recent COVID surge, hospitals like my own are spread really thin and they're staffing and there's often some open slots, especially at night time. So now as a senior resident, I have the ability to sign up for some shifts and make some extra cash. And you would be asking how much do you make? Well for tonight shift I'll be working 12 hours overnight and making $100 per hour or about $1200 before tax. And so when everything is said and done, that's right under $1000, definitely not bad. Now while the money is attractive, what do you actually do during these shifts? And it really depends on the role that I'll be covering for it. Today I'll be working as a nighttime hospitalist, which means that I'll be covering some of the medicine patients while the day team comes home. And since I know nothing about these patients at all, that means tonight can be either really busy or extra chill depending on the panel of patients I'm given and how stable they are. Now since I've made it to the hospital with some time to spare, it's time to grab some caffeine, diet, mount, and do being my personal choice and start to look at my patients for the day. Okay guys, so made it to work. Like I mentioned, this is my third moonlighting shift this week. Just had a lighter week. And so essentially what it works is right now it's 703. There are about 30 times seven, about 200 to 300 medicine patients in the hospital really at any time. Making this video is the time of another COVID surge, so numbers even higher. And essentially you meet people at night to be able to cover these patients. So there are people who are scheduled and paid and there are people who are signing their shifts like I'm doing today. And so at 703 essentially what happens is from 7 to 730, I'm just waiting for patients to get assigned to me from some of the nighttime staff that works here every night. There's going to look at how many people there are and they're going to split it evenly amongst us. So I just can't show you my screen for hypothermic violations. I don't want to show you any patient information. But I slowly start to see a list growing of my names. Right now I have 10 as of a minute ago. I upload it. Let's see what we got. Okay, so we're still at 10. But usually I end up in the night with about 35 to 40 patients. It may seem like a lot. Don't get called on most of them. Most of them sleep. Most of them are medicine patients, observation patients.  People who are like post a heart attack post a really bad infection or just came from ICU recently. And so once I get my entire list, I'm going to look at each of them and see if there's anything I need to do tonight. All up on labs, check on the patient, call family, send them for imaging, do other studies and things of that sort. And while I'm waiting, usually in the midst of this from like seven to seven thirty, I'm just kind of planning the stuff that I could do to be productive at nighttime. So working on my academic stuff, working on videos, stuff, etc. And then the other thing about moonlighting is that I have to admit two patients tonight. And so the simple way that that works out is there is going to be kind of a chat system through our phones and through our EMR, our medical record system, where essentially somebody gives the patients information, there's seven of us, and then a week, whatever's next in line, we'll just take that patient, see them in the emergency room, admit them, write the note. And then you're in charge of those two patients for the night in addition to everyone you're following. This just helps offload everyone else who is seeing patients tonight, that there are seven more people who could see patients for them in just in case they get busy. So two patients, admissions, not very hard, takes like 40 minutes to admit a patient, maybe an hour if they're complicated, plus cross cover stuff. So tonight could be busy, tonight could be not so bad. I'm going to try to be productive the first few hours and then I'll try to get some sleep if possible. So catch you guys soon. And as a quick update, so it was only 7.08, so not that long, but I already have only patients have 41 tonight. So I'm hoping that that doesn't mean that we're gonna be too busy, usually 40 means that they were understaffed. But fingers crossed, everyone's sleeping. So since I already have my first patient of the day, it's only 7.27, we're gonna go ahead and go see this person, it's coming in with the domino pain. Big differential, usually I can put in the orders, especially because this patient is asymptomatic COVID, sometimes it's just not easier to see them upstairs. But because I don't exactly know everything about them, I'm gonna go downstairs. But the nice thing is that within the last 20 minutes, since we last talked, we've already put in a majority of Asian P and pretty much will be done with this patient at least 750.  So let's go see. Now the first admission was pretty straightforward. Here we have a gentleman who presents with nausea, vomiting, and abdominal pain. Now a lot of things can cause these symptoms, but thankfully he's had multiple admissions for this. So I lucked out because I can use his past workup to come up with the two most likely causes for him. The number one cause is that he has poorly controlled diabetes and doesn't take his medications consistently. And this leads him to having high sugars and complications such as neuropathy, which also have complications such as gastroparesis. So where essentially your stomach doesn't move food forward very well. Now in addition to having gastroparesis in the setting of poorly controlled diabetes, he's also a consistent marijuana user. And no, I'm not judging, but it does increase his chances for a syndrome called cyclic vomiting syndrome. This is a condition where chronic marijuana users can notice themselves intermittently having nausea and vomiting and then notice improvement as soon as they start abstaining from it, as well as give him fluids overnight since he hasn't been able to keep anything down. Hi, friends. So it is 820. I have not seen that patient written HMP and put in all their orders, kind of caught up. Remember, I only have one more admission I can take tonight. In fact, that is 820 is good. And now I can finally actually start things on my to-do list. The first thing is to actually catch up on some of the reportings. So as a physician, I have to report when I work, how long I work, and I get behind. So we're going to work on those right now. Hey guys, so it is about nine o'clock. So far I've seen one patient cross-covered on 34 heads right now. And it's been a pretty productive evening because I've already applied for my first board exam that I have to take as a trauma medicine physician, which is a whopping $1,400. And also paid for my Texas license, which is also a whopping $800. I just dropped two grand on moonlighting. So hopefully that has been lighting money makes me a little bit less in the red. But hopefully the night so far continues to go well. I just kind of sit in front of this computer, make sure that all the labs and everything that I've come back are normal for the team in the morning. So whether patients are nice and comfy and go to sleep, probably going to go downstairs and grab some food in a second or make work or something. But right now I'm pretty broke. So but this is kind of how one of these moonlighting nights go. Oh, and in addition to everything else I've paid for, I realize I broke my status scope. As you guys can see, there's like cracks in this thing. So all the air leaves and I can't hear anything. So I'm having to use the nurses for any patients I've been called for. But that's my night. So a lot of money has been wasted or spent $200 set of scope, licensing exam, and the license application, and it's only making about half of that tonight. So not complaining, but hopefully we get some rest because we have some work to do tomorrow. Anything happens tonight. I will go ahead and catch back up with you guys later. Hopefully you guys are enjoying the video. See you later. All right, guys. So I wish I had more content to actually talk about what's going on. It is 10.30 and after admitting that patients have just had a few messages. So obviously I won't show you the screen. But the cool thing about our EMR is almost they can like message us as if there was a text message. Imagine Facebook Messenger for EMR. So I don't always have to get paid, which I hate. But I think since the start of the night, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, eight questions from nurses from the 40 patients that I've had. A lot of them are very simple. And so I've been sitting here and pretty much finished my to-do list for the day.  But otherwise, we're gonna try to get some sleep. And just like that, that's a quick and easy admission for sure. Now the rest of the night so far has been me responding to quick pages and messages from nurses. Now often I get called on problems such as pain, difficulty sleeping, pain, and more pain. But on these shifts, I also get some emergent calls such as the patient is bleeding, not breathing well, or has an arrhythmia, please come to bedside. Now this latter category requires that I go see the patient, the former category. However, I can often fix the problem based on just the notes and putting in orders from my personal workspace. But thankfully today has been an overall quiet night so far. So after getting my personal to-do list done for the night, I decided to go ahead and lay down around midnight. And just like that, my pager goes off. But when I look at the time, it's actually 2 a.m. So it means I've actually had a nice two hour nap, but it's time for my next admission. Now admission number two, this is a super nice patient who comes with worsening swelling in their legs as well as complaints of shortness of breath. Oh, and when you look at their labs, their kidney numbers actually also look worse. Now this is by far as a medicine physician my favorite problem to solve, volume overload. Because there's really only three organs that can cause true volume overload, the heart, the liver, and the kidney. Now this patient likely has either a kidney problem or a heart problem, or possibly both. But thankfully the answer for both is diuresis with my favorite medication, lasix, or otherwise known as furocemyde. But thankfully after just one dose of diuresis, this patient was resting comfortably in the ED, so once again, pretty straightforward admission. And now I'm done for my two admins for the night. So now it's about 3 a.m. and since most of the patients are asleep, to this point on, I likely don't get paged by a nurse unless it's an emergency. So I try my best to get some sleep, but usually find myself spending an extra hour or two on my phone until I can finally catch some quick z's. Now while tonight's moonlighting shift seems very relaxed and very easy, because honestly it was, there are shifts that I have where I'm sending somebody to the ICU, where I'm getting an admin from the emergency room, as well as getting called by a nurse to come to bedside for somebody else who may need the ICU. So once again these shifts are really a coin toss in terms of how busy you are, as well as the panel of patients that you get. But thankfully tonight the admissions were early and simple, as well as the cross covers wasn't that bad. And when you look at it, it's 7 a.m. and it's time for me to go. But before I head out, I make sure that if anything happened for any patient overnight that I leave a note for their day team so they can be updated, but now it's time to head out. So yeah moonlighting, not bad, and a great way to supplement your income and save a lot more money and residency. But I hope you guys enjoyed today's video and learned something, and if you did consider hitting that like and subscribe button, but I'll see you guys in the next shift. Take care my friends.


Okay, so we just get back to that question which Divya asked, how does one gain confidence and trust of the leader? Well, again, just to remind us that, just to reiterate that it is commitment and faithfulness and being consistent in what we are committed to and to have a, and let that be something that is consistent over the period of time. I'm just reminded of Acts chapter 7, Acts chapter 6, sorry. So this is what they said when they wanted to search out people, seven men who are going to kind of look after this distribution, daily distribution of food. So the first thing was good reputation, full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom. And these qualities is what they wanted to look for, very visible, like good reputation which means people also, you know, we build a reputation with people and it happens over a period of time. How is the reputation built?  So and also we go on to see that they actually did, they were people of prayer, etc. They ministered and then we see great things happening, right, they ministered in the power of the Holy Spirit as well. And when we read about Stephen, we read about, you know, so very committed, commitment did not favor in the face of danger and imminent death, right, till the end, faithfulness and he was committed. So we see that.  So this is what we see in the world, right. Also, I would say that, you know, there are times when people recommend people, right, people whom we trust and know they recommend and then they say, okay, you know, this person is good, of course, we need to see for it ourselves. But then we recommend. And that's what the Barnabas did, like to solve. So Barnabas actually took him and introduced him and say, you know, this is, this is someone whom I noticed my soul and then he takes Saul and introduces and kind of gives him that, you know, that opening and that encouragement. So we see that, right, he kind of connects him to other leaders and who, who noticed the call and encourage him in the call. So, you know, that also happens, right. Okay, let me just quickly share that to-do list, which might be helpful. I'll put it on the stream, but I'll just quickly go through that, right. Okay, here we go. Okay, it's called, it's just coming up on your screen. Okay, it's called the 18 minutes daily thing, daily, whatever, list. So it's first five minutes, okay, you actually sit down to do the list and what will, and decide, okay, how, what are those areas that I need to cover. So it's basically a six area, six main areas if you want to look at, you know, so it's, it's not just one list and one area, these are, you know, at least six or, I mean, to a max of six, right, six areas. So we look at that list, I mean, this is just one of the tools, okay, this is not the thing, but I found this useful to do. So one minute of every hour that you work, you can actually set a time for that particular task and after every hour, you check the list, okay, and see what has happened and what, am I getting distracted, am I doing what needs to be done, you know, so it helps to refocus. Then at the end of it, you do, so it means that you would have spent about, if it's a typical eight work, you would have spent about eight minutes on that, right, so first five minutes to do the list, eight minutes, I'll just review or the refocus and then the evening, at the end, again, five minutes to review how is it, you know, did I waste any time, etc. So, of course, I don't do it very diligently, this five minutes and refocusing every one minute, but what I do use, what I found to be helpful is this, you know, I'm just trying to see if there's an image of it in just a minute. No, I don't think I have that image, okay, I don't have that. Okay, anyway, I'll share these two with you and you can, so yeah, so what I do is actually typically, you know, have, so I have these six, or maximum six areas, so I have, let's say, my areas would be okay, marriage ministry, you know, whatever needs to be done in that, like people come and apply for the marriage, marriage preparation, for marriage to be solvenized, so I have that as one of the things, okay, what needs to be done in that, then maybe it could be things like, okay, order of service needs to be planned, or these people need to be, you know, put in touch with a marriage facilitator so that they can start the process and maybe some, we do an assessment after they finish about five lessons, you know, I have a meeting with the parents and with the couple and have a chat with them, so, yeah, so that's, so it'd be various things like that, maybe informing the registrar about the wedding date and so on, so marriage would be one, worship to be one, you know, okay, maybe I'm leading worship this Sunday and I need to prepare for that, so set list, scheduling of practice, informing the team, so things like that, then I could have something, since I take care of one of our church locations, so, okay, APC South, so things that needs to be done, now it's, we're reaching the end of the month, so roster for the next month for, you know, these are some of the admin work, right, so planning and administration thing, for the roster for the entire month, so maybe the set up, the sound heads, the guys who actually handled the sound, right now I'm rostering, so there's no, you know, people who make the lead in the declaration, again, right now I'm rostering, so I need to do that, so so things like that, right, different rosters, children's church worship team, worship leaders and rostering, so those are some things, okay, so that could be one area, so things like that, so what is it that I need to do daily, so we have these areas, and so, you know, you don't drop one area completely, just moving, you know, with all these areas simultaneously, so so that's a specialty or the typical characteristic of this Peter Bergman's to-do list, which is not just one full list, where you lose focus, but then six, at least six areas where you mark that area and you use it, and if you time box that, you know, each of the tasks, and then review it, then it's great, it helps, right, so I'll put it on the stream, you'll find that useful, I'm sure, okay, right, okay, so we're looking at reliability, you know, responsible, and also excellence, you know, excellence is a very relative thing, because it's not perfection, it's not that everything, there's a, you know, there's no hair out of place, it's not that, but the person is doing their best, okay, the best of their ability, they're giving their best, and they've worked hard, they've given their best effort, and so that is what we are saying, you know, excellence, and also we can, you know, define standards for excellence, right, for whatever area we can say, okay, this is what we are going to be looking at in this particular month or this particular year, we can constantly change that benchmark, but do they have excellence in that, or are they very complacent in what they do, you know, it's okay, you know, it's fine, this is what I can, this is what I will, you know, it's okay, right, so do they have that kind of an attitude, now, well, people can actually grow into it, right, if they want, as long as they say, okay, I want to do the best, and I want to do a good job, and I want the outcome to be good, right, if they have that in their heart, then we can actually, you know, kind of fine-tune that, nurture that, and say, okay, why don't you look at this standard, okay, you want something that is whatever you put on screen, you want that to be error-free, right, so why don't we look at that, no grammatically, no error, no spelling mistakes, let's look at that, so those can be some of our, you know, the standards of excellence, right, okay, then the other thing is that continuous growth, this also, you know, maybe people need some inspiration, maybe people need, maybe they're not even, you know, considered, sorry, this, right, so people, some are very innately curious, and they want to learn each and everything, some maybe not, but, you know, this is something that she can inspire people, right, that they grow in all areas, and continue to learn to be inspired, inspired, curious, and they want to grow, so this is very important, even for us, personally as leaders, only when we grow can we take others to the levels where we have grown, right, we can't push people beyond, you know, where we are, right, to inspire, to take people to where we are, is something that we can do, so which means that we need to be constantly and consistently growing ourselves, right, especially in terms of maturing to Christ-likeness, continuously growing, okay, one very other, you know, thing that we need to notice, along with, this is an area of, you know, character, is that though they don't have any personal agenda, what do we mean by that, means that though, if, you know, some people say, okay, I want to serve, but behind that is really, you know, what they actually mean is I want to be known, right, I want to be visible, so okay, people are saying I want to serve, fine, you serve in an area which is, you know, non-visible, right, that is also serving, it's not like you're putting in front of everyone, putting on display, but you know, you serve in this particular area, which is maybe like, you know, you need to come in and open the place and arrange the chairs, not a very visible thing, right, to, you know, you finish your task even before people come and then after people have left, you're stacking up things and putting it back, not very visible again, right, but if a person has a very personal agenda of, I just want to be known here, I want to be elevated to a position here, then, you know, then we know that, okay, this person has a personal agenda, they just come so that it's a selfish interest, right, so if that is there in people, then either we need to work at it to make sure that that's, that doesn't continue, you know, and how does that happen? Well, by example, personal example, where we say, okay, this is what serving is, right, by teaching and by principle and by preset and by personal examples, so by preset, we mean, okay, this we show them from the word, okay, this is what serving is, this is what, you know, the Lord Jesus himself, this is how he served, so this is how we serve and, you know, this is what we do, so by precepts, so they get an understanding and by example, so if we teach and then if that is not seen in our lives, then it's a very mixed signal that we are sending out, right, so I need to see it in our lives and then, well, people do change, right, so that's the one, that's one thing that we need to clearly look out for, right, no personal agenda. The other thing is the gifting and calling, gifts and the call of God. Now, we know that, you know, certain areas or all areas has its own, like, God has placed each member in the body to carry out the different function and there is a gift which enables that particular function, right, there's a gifting which enables that call, right, if you look at the five-fold, yes, you know, we know that, you know, there's that, this is the call of God and there is the gifting which, well, let's say, if it's the apostolic, well, we see, you know, certain, certain traits and certain gifts that flow along with it, right, if it's a teaching, then you see that gifting which flows along with it, so the gifts which a company actually confirm the call, right, so maybe a person is desiring to be something that they don't have the gifting for, they don't have the, you know, natural ability for and, you know, they're just struggling, right, so we can actually help them and put them in areas where they are gifted and called so that they enjoy doing what they're doing, right, so to recognize that, okay, do they have the gifted call and they do have a call, now is this what God is calling them to do, what do you design, right, and what are they saying when they talk about their testimony and how God has led them and, you know, we get an understanding, okay, this is how God has led them, this is how God has called them, what God has called them to do and so on, so we can reaffirm that, right, and we notice certain things that flow, you know, certain gifts that are flowing in their lives, so we can, you know, we can encourage them to grow in that gifting also, right, so these are some, this is another thing to find out, okay, another thing is are they good followers, you know, we looked at it earlier also, like the Lord Jesus, he did what he saw the Father do, he heard, he was waiting on the voice, on the instruction of the Father and he did that, right, he valued the words of the Father, so not only did he value, but he, you know, carried it out, he was obedient and he knew the purpose, so to be a good leader is also means that you're not hesitant to do what needs to be done, you're not hesitant to, you know, do certain things that carry out instructions, okay, okay, here's a question, in a workplace setting, managers might have a tendency to push their team towards being more and more visible, okay, how can a believer strike a balance between the agenda of the boss and the employee's godly standards, okay, pushing more and more visible in the sense, can you just explain that to me? Yeah, in the sense of, like, even if the job at hand is being taken care, you know, in order to get, for example, I'm just saying, for example, if there is a, like a rating or performance rating, so it's like, for beyond, like beyond expectations, what the boss can say is, okay, you need to be more, like, pushing towards more of you know, visibility towards the client in terms of, okay, you have to improve in terms of that in this, it's not wrong, but sometimes it becomes too much stressful. I see, okay, so what you're saying is the reporting of the task done, right, or of a project done, so that the person evaluating understands what was done, so you're saying, okay, to push it beyond more and more, in the sense, reporting what was done, even every small thing you want to show it as, showcase it as something that was special, is that something on those lines? Yes, yes. Yeah, so I think, yeah, so definitely there needs to be you know, a presentation of what was done, otherwise the, you know, communication of what was done, otherwise, you know, that is why we have reports and appraisals and so on, so otherwise they, people cannot assess and evaluate the work, so as long as, you know, you know it, okay, this is what is, this is what I've done and this is what I'm presenting, and there is a way of presenting in a good way, right, so that it is, like the proverb says, you know, a word fitly spoken at the right time is like, you know, apples of gold in settings of silver, you know, saying that, okay, it is something which is presented well, a word that is spoken at the right time is like that, so in similar ways, we can, you know, present it well, but not exaggerate, right, now make a tall claim of something that we did not do, we know that, you know, the Spirit of God immediately, you know, so we can present it in a way that is attractive, that communicates what was done, but without any exaggeration, without any, you know, misrepresentation of facts, that's, that's fine, I think that's, that's, that definitely needs to be done, yeah, so if the boss is pushing for something, a misrepresentation of facts, just for the sake of, you know, pleasing the client, or just for the sake of getting, then we know it's a, it's a tough thing, right, and that's a call that you need to take to say no this far and no more, right, and it happens, it's a, it's a struggling, it's a, it happens when the boss does not understand, and even in terms of, you know, like a, let's say it's a sales oriented job, then the boss might say, okay, it's okay, just, you know, just tell something and sell it, it's the end of the month, today's the 31st, we have to, you know, close the month on a good note and sell something, I mean, tell something and sell it, right, but you need to hold your ground and say, okay, I will sell what this is, I'm not going to make a wrong commitment to the client and do it, yeah. Sure, thank you, thank you, Mr. Yeah, okay, so we need to be good followers, we need to, you know, obey, but when we say obey, we are saying again, you know, it has to be, you know, we have to be true to ourselves, we have to be people of integrity, you know, especially in a setting which is, which is not really well conducive, right, let's say Daniel lived in a court, the people are all, you know, all kinds of people, they are all in witchcraft and, and he was actually made a leader over them, so, you know, so that's, I wonder how he did it, you know, that's something, that's a conversation I really want to have with Daniel, how did you survive it today in such a setting, you know, Nebuchadnezzar's court, these kind of people and all kinds of things happening, how did you hold fast to your testimony, how did you continue on, you know, what made you really go to work every day, right, so, well, Daniel did it, it's possible, we just need to, it's not easy, right, okay, so to be good followers and to be good nurturers, so that's an important thing, that's what we are looking at, right, so to be people who will nurture others, okay, so to be able to raise up other leaders, to be able to nurture others, to be able to see the good in people, to be able to see the potential in people, okay, so not to look down on people, okay, but to esteem them highly, okay, because they're not finished products yet, as much as we are not finished products, we are all works in progress, so they are also works in progress, people whom God has interested us to lead, so to be able to nurture, okay, so the word, I mean, we look at the word nurture, the picture that comes as that of a mother, as that of a father, to feed, to make sure, to protect, right, to encourage, not just physically, but also emotionally, right, and spiritually, so to be good nurturers, to be able to do that, it's not to pamper, it's not to say yes to everything, but a person who nurtures does it, speaks the truth in love, and to love unconditionally, at the same time, being firm, okay, God loves us unconditionally, but he calls out, if things are not right, he would call out with the intention of for our own good, his calling out is for our own good, his correcting us is for our own good, that we don't destroy ourselves, so with that heart, right, with the father's heart, we need to nurture others, right, and so do they have that capacity, you know, if they see someone who is, who maybe is not as skilled as they are, you know, are they helping them, are they withholding information, do they, so that they look good, and the others look bad, right, these are small signals that we can pick up, you know, are they putting them down, even in terms of humor and so on, are they lifting them up, lifting other people up, are they being helpful, you know, so then we can see that, oh yeah, these are, now we looked at 11 characteristics, now all these characteristics may not be full blown and, you know, in people, right, may not be very visible in people, but then, or it could be in a very raw state, right, but we cannot, as leaders we cannot, right, we can, it's going to take time, it can be very frustrating, right, it can be, it can really test our patience, and we might think like, you know, how many times, how many times have I corrected this person, how many times have I, you know, said the same thing over and over again, and yet, you know, this person has not got it, well, we look at our own lives, well, God had to, you know, God and the Lord does continue to be patient with us, so we extend that same patience to others as well, right, so that's the, yeah, that's the role of us as leaders to identify the potential, so then it becomes, you know, it becomes really interesting, you know, our role, maybe if you're a pastor, if you're called to, you know, pastor church, or maybe as a life group leader, maybe as a Bible study, you know, you're conducting a Bible study in a place, you know, as a life group leader, so it becomes, you know, you see your role not just as a person who is sharing something from the word, but also as, you know, identifying, praying, or laboring, co-laboring with God to identify, you know, the potential in people, to identify the gift and calling in people, and to nurture them in it, and to point them in it, right, I'm sure all of us have, you know, God has used different kinds of people to speak into our lives, right, right from the time we came to know him as Lord and Savior, the Lord is right from sharing the gospel, maybe, or maybe it was just, you know, you just read the tract or read the word and you believe whatever it is, God, you know, during our journey, God has used people to speak into our lives, to nudge us, to be signposts to us, to point us to, you know, back to the way when we kind of distracted and going away, God has used people, so we need to be such people as well, right, to others, right, and intentionally look out for potential leaders and entrust them with responsibilities, okay, so nurturing leaders, let's go into a bit of a, you know, somewhat detail of how do we nurture leaders, so we looked at the potential leaders, we looked at some of these qualities that people need to have, okay, so you identify those qualities, let's say someone has all these 11 qualities and more, and so we need to nurture them, right, and take them through multiple stages till they are able to function as leaders, right, and again, we're talking about spiritual leadership, we're talking about, and this can be applied, you know, across in a secular setting also, okay, but it's a lot more, I think, I mean, it can be a lot more brutal there, right, in a sense, people just, they, you know, look at people, of course, it's changing in the workplace also, the people that what they can give, as long as you can give, you're there, and then if you quiff not, then your, you know, your position is not there, so the value based on what you can give and not as you as a person, right, to a logic, saying it's that, but that is also changing in the workplace, right, okay, so as pastors leaders, you know, we are to nurture other leaders, and people go through different stages, okay, let's look at, you know, the initial stage, the first stage would be what we can call as a preparation stage, now we identify the people, and, you know, in the preparation stage, we are sharing the vision, okay, sharing the overall vision, the big picture, this is what we are about, okay, that needs to be shared in a formal setting, that needs to be shared, maybe in an informal setting, as a reminder, hey, remember, this is what we are about, right, this is what church is for, you know, this is what we are going after, so you reiterate, you share the vision, okay, and sharing also what we want done in a certain area of ministry, okay, and how to go about doing it, what do you, what do we need to do, okay, this is what we want to do, and this is how we go about it, okay, and we are also emphasizing commitment, character, you know, all these attributes that we see that we are expecting out of the leader, okay, so we kind of, so this could happen over a conversation, this could happen over a formal training or, you know, formal, it could be, it can happen parallel, even we are doing other tasks, you know, let's say, just going out to meet someone, okay, and then this person is also with you, and then we talk about this, just remind themselves, remind them about it, so, and then talk, hey, let's talk about your, you know, the area that you're serving, you know, are you looking at these things as you serve, as you're looking at these things, you know, what helps you, so in a casual conversation, but it can also be a very formal conversation saying, okay, why don't we meet and let's talk about this, okay, so you're meeting in a place, and they're very intentional, okay, this is what you're going to be talking about, and, you know, both are possible, right, so this is the preparation stage where you're re-trading, okay, this is a big picture, and it's very important, okay, we cannot assume that the person understands the tasks, right, we cannot assume that the person understands how to go about doing it, so some of the things that you're saying, you know, it could be, to your, you could be second guessing yourself, you know, maybe, you know, I'm being too detailed, I'm being too, you know, am I being, like, am I micromanaging things, right, just to share what needs to be done is not micromanaging, it's not interfering with that person's, you know, tasks or responsibility, right, you're setting the standard, you're sharing the big picture, and that sharing of that big picture is very important to set the context for why they are doing what they're doing, okay, that really sets the context, because with this in the background, I'm going to do this, right, in the sense that with this vision, I'm going to be doing this, so that is, or that always, you know, really fuels why I need to get up early in the morning, why I need to be there when no one else is there, why I need to come and clean the place, you know, this is the big picture, right, so you're setting the context for that, okay, so that's the preparation stage, so well, the preparation stage could, you don't know, we can't really put a time frame to it, right, but we only wish that it's quicker, right, so the person can go to that initial stage of stepping into that leadership role, so there's been a, let's say, a formal appointment, or that, you know, we're just saying, communicating to the others, saying that, okay, this person here will take care of this role, this person will take care of the ashring, okay, they're going to take care of ashring, and so initially, we are, again, we are being involved, as a leader, you are involved in, involved in what you're providing the guidance, you're showing them, okay, how it needs to be done, telling them about, okay, how often do you communicate with the team, certain things that ashring requires, rosters that need to be done, scheduling that needs to be done, finding our people's availability, you know, the best way to go about doing it and, you know, how to communicate, maybe with the team, you know, politely and, you know, courteously and so on, right, and so on, so giving that guidance, giving that training, and does it require any equipment, right, does it require any tools, okay, the tools can be, you know, something physical, that is required, you know, maybe there's a media team and then probably they need a laptop, they need a, what they're having is not working, maybe they need some cables that are not functioning, or things like that, right, what is the equipment that is required, and the training to use that equipment, so we facilitate that as well, we don't need to necessarily do it ourselves, but we facilitate that, right, the equipping and so, and also initially, you know, they may need some help in finding out, again, all that we are looking at, you know, we would be looking at in detail in church administration, right, so I'll just quickly move on after mentioning this, so also we need help in, they may be putting the team together, maybe, you know, growing the team, they would need help, and maybe people, you can suggest people because you've been there, and you can, maybe you're able to identify, and so on, so you help them, and then once the team is put together, well, things don't just automatically happen, there could be some challenges relating to each other, some personality challenges, and some challenges like people not showing up, people not, you know, people not communicating, etc., so help them through that, and guide them, guide the leader through that, and also maybe the leader might make some mistakes, right, leader might forget, so we are there to provide that correction, and just to remind them why we are doing what we're doing, like that's the initial stage, so the leader has actually stepped into that role, but we are also involved quite, involved regularly to provide all that is required, support, and encouragement, and correction, and so on, then there is a settling in-stage, you know, where the leader is doing well, you know, the leader is enjoying the work, the leader is doing well, making decisions, training people, the team is functioning well, and so that is a time to not be so heavily involved, right, so we can actually step back, and as they keep moving forward, and also during this time, we just don't completely, you know, disconnect, so that's the mistake some we can make, right, oh everything is going fine, let me just disconnect, you get feedback, you know, you get reports, see how things are, okay, how was it this Sunday, how did it go, is everything going on okay, or do we need any help, is everything fine, just getting some regular feedback, and providing some input, yeah, you know, I read this article and this was about, you know, volunteering, and how volunteers get burned out, and how to prevent that burn out, you know, so I'll just forward that article to you, why don't you take a look at it, right, so maybe that person requires certain things on, you know, teams, how to lead a team, how to communicate with the team, and so on, that's not their strong area maybe, or they need to grow, so you help them that, right, so this is a settling in stage where there is input, and you are taking feedback, but you're not so quite heavily involved, right, in the day to day or week to week, okay, then there is a growth stage, right, so the leader is actually growing the area of ministry or that team, you know, it's growing beyond where it was when you actually interested them as a leader, they're able to make a lot of progress, they're growing, and so here also our involvement is actually diminishing, you know, we are just not so involved now, just providing the vision and direction, the leader is able to make certain, you know, some good judgment calls, the leader is able to correct, the leader is able to train, equip, so, and, you know, of course, you're always available to take feedback, and also provide guidance, and maybe correction even, that does not change, right, and the next stage, we can say is a maturity stage, where the leader is raising up other leaders, there are leaders who are raising up within the team, other potential leaders, and this leader begins to raise up other leaders, the way you raised up this particular leader and interested them with that leadership role, this particular leader whom you raised up is able to raise up other leaders, so you know that, okay, that's a, you know, mature stage, or maturity stage of leadership, where they are delegating their responsibility to them and they're doing well, right, so we can actually take the leader to another level of leadership altogether, maybe a bigger role of leadership, maybe they can now take care of, you know, a bigger area, if it is, if it is there, right, a bigger area of leadership, or maybe a higher level of, maybe not just, you know, two, three areas of ministry, but then a higher level of, I think, in the same ministry, higher level of responsibility in the same, if it takes this, right, so we can do that, and the last stage would be transition, the sense where the leaders actually grown to all that can be done in that particular area of ministry, or area of responsibility, so the thing is to maybe, you know, the leaders have, the leaders whom he has developed, he or she has developed, are taking up, and they're doing things well, so maybe it's time to appoint another person to handle that, and, you know, and maybe this person can step into some other role altogether, because they are now functioning quite well as leaders, maybe they can mature with their maturity and experience and learning, they can handle a bigger area of ministry, a bigger area, or a different area of ministry altogether, right, so these are things, possibilities, right, and we see that, you know, this is a, you know, if done well, it is really a very satisfying, very fruitful thing to do, and some of this takes time, right, some of this, and we can't say, you know, we can't say that it will take 10 years, 15 years, you know, some people are very, very quick, some people are very committed and, you know, they are fast learners, and also growing rapidly, spiritually, spiritual maturity, and everything, so we can never put a time frame, but it's good to, it's good to, you know, be consistent and continue on, and see that, you know, things happen in this manner, right, okay, so any questions here? Any questions? Okay, so it's a very encouraging, satisfying role, you know, as a leader, okay, so for us to be able to raise up other leaders, now is it easy, no, will there be disappointments, probably, maybe somebody doesn't want to, doesn't, you know, or halfway through wants to quit, and you had high hopes for them, and maybe they, you know, they didn't want to follow through or for whatever reason, and you know, you see someone who has so much potential, but they keep tripping, but they keep making same mistakes, and they're not willing to go beyond that mistake, you know, that can be very frustrating for that person and for you also as a leader, is it possible, yes, no, that could happen, but we don't give up, right, we don't give up, see, now we can't push this on to people, okay, it has to come from them, right, whoever whom you want to develop as a leader, they should be willing, right, you cannot force it, we can facilitate, we can encourage, we can present, we can, you know, share these opportunities, right, but ultimately it has to come from the people themselves, right, we need to understand that, okay, so the next thing is that what develops leaders, we just go look at a few thoughts on what really develops leaders and how can we, you know, how can we, you know, do this, so we looked at these several stages, so when we create opportunities, like when we make space, okay, how do we set boundaries when we try to nurture someone, okay, so when we say boundaries, so can you just explain that, Divya, like boundaries? Yeah, I was trying to understand in terms of both the person who is leading as well as the person who is being led, like there can be, there can be personalities where people can push the other person too far or there can be personalities where the person who is being led can, you know, encroach the leader's boundary, right, yeah, so there is, there are boundaries to be set, I believe, that the personal, the personal choices or Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right, yeah, so when it comes to boundary between the natural and the spiritual, that also, you know, like, I think we would have learned this in kingdom building when we studied about kingdom builders, about Paul and Timothy and their nurturing relationship, so we, and also about the local church, we know that there are boundaries between the natural and the spiritual, you know, yes, we are in the family of God and so on, but, you know, there are these boundaries that we need to respect, right, so the thing is this, we always respect the free will of the person, right, we never force things, we can set expectations, we can definitely, you know, when it comes to certain, when it comes to doing a particular task, you know, there are expectations and there are standards, so those are some things that we can enforce and say, you know, this is how, you know, we need to meet the standards, this is the expectation, this is how it needs to be done, right, but for a person who, let's say, when something like this, you know, when you're nurturing someone into a leadership position and then, well, the person is just not willing, I just doesn't want, then we cannot step in, we cannot overstep our boundaries and force, okay, we can be firm, we can suggest, but we cannot force ourselves. At the same time, as, like you said, as a person who's being nurtured, okay, I need to respect the time, the, you know, the privacy, the preferences of the person who is, who's the leader, who's nurturing me as well, okay, maybe the leader would say, okay, this is all the time that I have, we can, of course, ask, we can request, but we need to respect the time and the preferences of the leader. So, yeah, it works both ways. I think what would be helpful is if we can actually read that building people by the spirit, right, and we can look at that section in the book, King the Builders, that will be really helpful to put these boundaries. Like, the Bible also warns us, you know, Paul warns about people who are busy bodies, who show up in people's homes and, you know, so those are certain things to be avoid, that we need to avoid in our zeal to nurture others. We should not make those mistakes, right, in our zeal to say, okay, this person, oh, wow, this is such a wonderful opportunity. Let me just go all out and do it. We should not really force ourselves into these kind of in these kind of situations, right? So we need to be careful. Yeah. So we create, yeah, yeah, thanks. So we create, yeah, one more question. No, no, please go ahead faster. I didn't want to interrupt. Yeah. Right, right. Okay. So when we create opportunities, we actually develop leaders, okay, create opportunities in the sense, when we make some space, when we, let's say, we suddenly realize here that this is a role this person can do. This is a task this person can, you know, actually carry out. And there is space. It's not like you're just, you know, creating something just for that person to develop. No, but actually, this particular task helps the organization grow or helps the church, helps the ministry. You know, this particular task, it helps, it actually enhances the whole thing, right? Maybe we want to have a greater, you know, right at the, at the entrance when people walk in, we, we know that people walk in and then you assure them to their seats, whatever, but then maybe this, this person's personality is so much that, you know, so warm and friendly and it'll really help if the person is there outside the door and welcoming people, right? So you create a role and you develop leaders. They're just a small example, but, you know, in, we can look into whatever, you know, the ministry role is the ministry function is and then see, you know, is there a role for this person so that this person can grow? Okay. Okay, so we'll stop here. And then, yeah, we'll continue in our next class, just check the stream. After the class, I'll upload that list as well, right, to the list. Okay. Thank you. God bless. Thank you, Pastor. Thanks. See you in the night. Thank you, Pastor.