Hello everyone, welcome to this session on chaos foreclose with litmus and ergo the cube con North America 2020 virtual edition. This is Uma Mukhera co-founder and chief operating officer at my data and I'm also one of the maintainers on litmus chaos CNCF project. In this session, I'm going to start with the litmus project introduction and then summit is going to talk about our goal and do a quick demo of construction of a chaos workflow using litmus and our goal. Let's start with litmus. Litmus is a CNCF project. It is accepted as a sandbox project early this year. Our mission is to help Kubernetes SREs and developers in practicing chaos engineering in a cloud native way. My data integrate and Amazon or the current maintenance of this project. Chaos Hub is an asset to the project where all the chaos experiments are hosted together for the community. So why chaos engineering for Kubernetes? It's because your application resiliency depends on how host of other cloud native services or cloud native applications. In fact, 90% of the resilience of your application depends on some other cloud native service or Kubernetes itself. How do you achieve resiliency? The answer is practice chaos engineering. What is chaos engineering? It is a practice of introducing a random fault into a system that is running at steady state and then observing if the steady state has been regained or not. If yes, then the system is resilient. If not, you find a weakness. So how do you do this on Kubernetes? You follow the Kubernetes native principles where the lifecycle of such an experiment is run using the chaos operator and the management is done using a set of custom resources. In this case, litmus provides a chaos engine CR, a chaos experiment CR and a chaos results CR. Using this custom resources, you can introduce or you can run a chaos experiment in a cloud native way in a totally declarative way. So how do you run this chaos and practice chaos engineering at scale? So for that, litmus is introduced to chaos workflows. Chaos workflow is built on top of an Argo workflow or it uses an Argo workflow to run multiple experiments. You can configure to run them in sequence or in parallel. And then this litmus chaos workflow consolidates the results of such experiments to give a meaningful result to the user. Because this entire workflow is run declaratively or configured declaratively, you can practice chaos engineering using GitHub's practice. Let's look at litmus chaos architecture. Litmus provides a help chart with which you can install a litmus portal. And then you can run agents, litmus agents on different Kubernetes clusters where you need to practice chaos engineering or you need to run chaos experiments. This can be the same cluster on which you install portal. So once you have that, you set up a chaos workflow which will be picked up by the chaos operator and results in running of the experiments as per the flow defined in the chaos workflow. And that results in a set of metrics, chaos metrics and events which are then uploaded to Prometheus for your analysis. From litmus portal, you can run chaos on different Kubernetes clusters, the multi-cloud environment or a hybrid cloud environment as well. So this really means that with litmus, you can practice chaos engineering across your enterprise and it's not just a set of experiments that you're putting together, but it's a tool set that provides the entire infrastructure required for running chaos engineering at scale across your clusters in your enterprise. Let's also look at Chaos Hub. Chaos Hub, as you can see here, it contains generic experiments, a bunch of them and a set of application specific experiments as well. So you can practice your chaos engineering most of the time with already available experiments, 70 or more than 70 percent of the experiments are already made available for you. You construct the remaining experiments using litmus SDK and if you think this new experiment is going to be useful for your users, you can also upstream search an experiment back to the Hub. Let's look at a list of chaos experiments that are available. Primarily, they are divided into generic and application specific. You will see that currently there are about 22 generic chaos experiments, the most famous one being port delete. That's the one that everybody starts using whenever they try litmus. But one of the other important one is also Cubate Service Scale, which is an important function to test when your Kubernetes is very much in production and serving at scale. This experiments covered a lot of variety across network, CPU, memory, disk, and services, IO, and node in general. Using these generic experiments, you should be able to cover much of your chaos engineering needs. One of the other important aspects of litmus is how easy it is to build new chaos experiments. You call it as bring your own chaos into the environment. All you need to do is put that chaos logic into a Docker image or a container image and use litmus SDK to create an experiment skeleton, put them together, appoint your Docker image to that CR, and then you are ready to use that experiment into a chaos workflow. How do you get started with litmus? Litmus provides a help chart with which you get a litmus portal and use that litmus portal to select a predefined chaos workflow and run it on your choice of Kubernetes cluster. This is how a litmus portal looks like. Once you log in, you will have a set of predefined experiments here. I am showing a set of workflows that are already scheduled and run, and you can go on schedule your new workflow, and that gives you a set of predefined workflows which you can choose, and then you can tune the weightage of experiments that are part of the workflow and then you schedule it. When it is run, you can go and see how a given chaos workflow was executed, did everything go right or not, and it gives a good picture of the sequence of experiments that were run, and also a litmus portal provides a good amount of analytics around this chaos experiments. As stated earlier, the mission is to help developers and SRIs to practice chaos engineering on Kubernetes in a Kubernetes native way. With that introduction, let me switch this session to Sumit. Hello everyone. As Uma has given overview of litmus, its architecture and plugin infrastructure, we are one of the recipient of leveraging this plugin infrastructure. I am Sumit Nagal, and today I am talking about chaos workflow with litmus, and using Argo workflow, how we are leveraging the workflow capability. Little bit about me. I work for Intuit, who is a proud maker of TurboTax QuickBooks and Mint. I play Kubernetes, a lot of open source being in Java and Python for a long time, doing a lot of testing and performance work, and leveraging cloud on observability platform. I am leading a reliability engineering team. As part of that team, we are building a paved road, which is on open source tools, providing infrastructure and reliability for any specific service. It has a three-solution of chaos engineering performance and infrastructure. Now, this team is actually helping the Intuit developer platform, which is building next-gen Kubernetes platform for Intuit. We have thousands of developers and hundreds of clusters with more than 2,000 plus services already onboarded, and this one is going lips and bounds. This is the overall architecture of this Intuit developer platform, where we are building a paved road for any onboarding service, and we give them a template so that they can onboard, build their specific functionality, leveraging this platform, which is primarily on the Kubernetes, leveraging AWS infrastructure. There are a lot of informations are available in that. Here we come and be part of that. This platform, we wanted to build very robust, reliable, and stable, as well as we want that to be the scale. A little bit about my chaos journey. I've been working on chaos from last couple of years. Initially, I've been working mainly on the application side, where we were building the historic circuit breaker, as well as a point-to-point solution like AWS, Chaos Monkey, and Seminarmy kind of stuff. We did some game days, so that brings a lot of awareness about chaos. Last year, we started working on this chaos toolkit. We built a lot of use cases, specifically from the application cloud, which is AWS platform, which is a Kubernetes. We added many extensions, we enhanced many extensions, and later we wrapped it up in service and created a node-based use case. During that time, there were many incidents happen, not to our platform, but a few of our products, which being there and prod, that create a bit of awareness about that how someone will go and build the resiliency for this. What we started doing is that we tried to see that if we can put this work to the Kubernetes. Then we figured it out that it is a little challenging. We cannot put that because of security compliance and it's not a native Kubernetes. So we did the initial POC with the litmus, and we have many use cases, more than 70 plus use cases, specifically from application cloud and platform side. We don't want it to rebuild everything from scratch. So what we have used and we built with a small POC and help from the community, we build a plugin infrastructure where all our work has been being executed by a custom resource. And later point of time, we figured it out that how this work can be added as part of the CI CD and workflow. We work closely with the workflow team and build the solution. And after that, we have introduced the performance as well as the chaos side by side and executed via Jenkins speculative pipeline. So this is the overall setup, what we have for the chaos design, where we are installing this chaos operator, which is coming as part of the litmus, as well as the few CRDs in one of the namespace. And we install the Argo workflow as well as Argo controller on another namespace. And we create many custom resources. This custom resources are the one which is actually being invoking our framework. And with the right kind of RBAC, we are targeting specific application as well as the cube system specific namespaces. And all the data we are right now pushing to various monitoring and observability solution. And this has been executed by Jenkins pipeline. Taking one level down how this magic is happening, we have this framework, which is actually being called in this custom resource. Custom resource are about what? And then when you have created that chaos operator will look for those custom resources. And when we go for executing a chaos scenarios, that time the chaos runner pod will come up, which try to bring this experiment, which is nothing but your container code, which has a logic. And then it will finish that execution. It pushed the data to the Kubernetes event. And then we have done internal integration of pushing the data to operation data lake. So it pushed to our operation data lake. There is a one session on operation data lake by Amit and Vijay. Please attend that. And then the all the results we are pushing to the chaos result. So by this time, you have that idea that how this overall structure will there, I will go one level down that how this framework works. So we have this framework being exposed through custom resource. This custom resource is using an image, which is a Python based container image. And in this Python based container image, we are using chaos toolkit framework, which has many extension we use existing as well as we build our and then it has a specific logic written, which is using with the steady state hypothesis. It's a steady state hypothesis before and after. And then you go and execute the chaotic operation and later it will go and push the data to operation data lake. So everything in nutshell, if you wanted to take it out, how this one is there. So we are writing these use cases. These use cases are nothing but our chaos experiment test. These tests we are putting in the Argo workflow. This Argo workflow is a code which is being checked in in the gate. Gate, we have integration with the Jenkins. Jenkins pick this specific code. And with the cube context, it interact with one of the namespace and it submit the Argo. Argo will execute a workflow. This workflow will look that whatever instruction has been provided as part of this workflow that experiment exists. So this experiment which already being set it up on this specific namespace, it pick that specific scenario, it launch the chaos runner. This chaos runner will be using and our existing framework image and launch the experiment. This experiment is picking the code and using the cluster role RBAC and target specific pod. And once the test is done, it will go and it will bring the result as well as the report to our operation data. Now, why Argo workflow? So we have seen that you can execute kip kettles and yamls and then you can execute. But logically speaking, if you really wanted to execute everything as part of pipeline many scenarios, it become very challenging. So automation was one of the things. Now with Argo workflow, everything is coming as a one yaml where we can just use one of the parameter to the Argo submit and we can invoke that specific thing and everything is a code. So you don't need to maintain the various different kind of yaml and we have a scenario of hundreds of clusters. It become very very challenging how we roll it out. As we are using Argo, there are a lot of already cost optimization and resource utilization optimization already done that, which is actually helping in the cost, which is I think one of the more important thing in the current pandemic going. And it as we have introduced the chaos with the performance, we are getting more reliability. We are not only looking for statefulness of the chaos, we are getting the statelessness of the performance and then we merge both of them. It helps us to build a lot of complex scenarios, which is in practical writing at Coups, Catalyaml is not possible. And as this whole execution is happening in a manner that it is a very predictable, it bring a lot of trust and confidence in the overall setup. Last but not least, because it's a code, self-service and onboarding is very very easy and then as we are using workflow, it become the complete life cycle, whatever you have set the base state, it will finish the same base state again. Now, this is the final chaos Argo workflow setup, how it will look like, where you could see that we are running the chaos as well as the performance execution. I will go for the demo. We have this place where we put all our code base of all the YAMLs. And I will be executing two scenarios. One scenario is that from this namespace, I'm creating chaotic operation and application and cube system. And I will try to do it with the existing framework as well as through Argo workflow. So right now here, I have this specific namespace where I have the nginx demo running. And then I will just try to get these experiment added here. And then I can validate that. And then I will apply the RBAC. Once I apply the RBAC, I can go the execution, which is the chaos experiment using chaos toolkit to spy them. By the time it started, the runner pod has come up and the runner pod will initiate the container, which has a framework, which is here. This container will try to do certain action based on that, how we have configured that. So I have kept one experiment one. So here you could see that we are using one of the image from litmus chaos, chaos toolkit image. This is our custom resource. And then here we have provided certain parameters. And this is the experiment we actually use. We overwrite those parameters. And then we specify which specific experiment we are executing. So let's see here. Now here it actually deleted that nginx demo, which is another app. And it bring down that delete and then the runner pod. So with this, we are able to do the execution. And I have this demo script available at your fingertips. Now let's go to the another scenario where we wanted to do this, but we wanted to use the Ergo to do that. So now in this scenario where we apply a YAML, I have parameterized everything. And those parameters are that I am attacking one of our KM pod on a cube DIM system. And this time I'm passing a different chaos toolkit file. And then here I am just executing. And then this will launch the Ergo workflow. Let me just go and grab that. So Ergo workflow when it will launch, it will again do the same thing runner pod it will execute. And then the runner pod job is to initiate that container. And now here you could see that KM pod has been terminated. And then you could see that the run chaos will be finished. And then we will bring back the chaos back to the same state. I have the workflow also available through the nice UI. So this is the way it is executing. Now everything is done. Now I will go and I will say that I wanted to execute the chaos test with the performance. That's the give me the value add off that if during chaotic operation something is happening to my endpoint, I'm going and this time I'm executing the test and it will impact the application pod. And here I'm side by side running the performance test as well as I'm running the chaos test. So here chaos runner has been started. So here you could see that the flow has been started chaos execution started as well as the test also started. They both are going in parallel. I can go and look for workflow. So here the PDP create happen and then I'm execution as well as the performance test both are happening side by side. Now one chaos has been finished and you could see that the test is still going and the application has been brought down. I can go and look for my logs here, which is the performance test during this time. Here you could see that during certain time there is a pod has been impacted. You could clearly see that. And I go and look for other one. I'm right now running two parts. So now with this, you could see that we can go and identify all the problem on your application and we probably need to put the resilience build on that application. Thank you very much. Thank you, Sumit for that wonderful demo. With that, we have come to the end of this session on creating chaos workflows using Latmas and Argo. Please do take a look at the GitHub projects of both Latmas and Argo. Thank you again for watching our wonderful conference. Till next time, see you. Bye-bye. Thank you.


area, it's impacted by human activities, including from fisheries and pollution. Now, our global system is actually, our global system is the primary driver of biodiversity loss and close to 90% of the world's marine, marine fish stacks are fully exploited, over exploited or depleted. And our global food system is a primary driver of biodiversity loss with agriculture alone, being that identified threat to 24,000 of the 28,000 species at least of extinction. Now, agricultural expansion is said to account for about 70% of the projected loss of terrestrial biodiversity. In around 3.2 billion people or 40% of the global population are adversely affected by land degradation. In about 25% of global greenhouse, greenhouse gas emissions are generated by land clearing, preproduction, and fertilization. Now, declines in nature and the biodiversity at current trajectories will undermine progress towards 35 out of 44 of the targets of SDGs related to poverty, hunger, health, water, cities, water, cities, climate and oceans as well as land. Now, the relationships and influences between drivers of biodiversity, ecosystems, dietary quality, nutrition and health status has been mentioned earlier. And I just like to pin point that our biodiversity in food system affects actually the dietary quality and food security as well as nutrition and health that will bring about malnutrition in all its forms. And we know very well that malnutrition is actually driven by environmental factors such as water sanitation, climate change, and biodiversity loss. And also demographic and socio-cultural factors like the place of residence that's actually including rural or urban area, educational level, especially the parents, behavioral risk factors, and the health care access. With regards to economic factor, we have household wealth and income. In the Philippines, we call this actually the wealth quintile and the food access and food security as well as economic growth. Now, the global burden of malnutrition is really alarming and you can see that 38 million children under five years old are actually overweight in obese. 131 million children age five to nine years old are overweight and 207 million of adolescents are overweight and about 2 million adults are overweight in obese. And with regards to actually anemia, about 613 million have anemia and about 144 million children under five age are stunted and about 47 million children under five of age are wasted and 20.5 million babies are born with low birth weight. Now this was presented earlier between 702 and 828 million people were affected by hunger globally in 2021 and more than half of people in the world affected by hunger in 2021 were actually located in Asia and more than one-third is actually in Africa. Now, the overview of Philippine biodiversity, we know very well that Philippines is one of the most important centers of amphibian and reptile diversity in Southeast Asia. And for water, we have the water sheds and aquifers could supply about 47, 479 BCM annually for domestic industrial and agricultural uses. And for pharmaceuticals, plants are used for common illnesses like cough, pain, tooth decay, and diarrhea. Just like when we had the COVID-19, we use our plants to actually ease the symptoms of COVID-19 like what we call the sambong here. And food, every square kilometer of coral weeds can supply up to 30 tons of edible and economically important fish every year and the biomass fuel. Now, if you can see that our green economy of the Philippines, it composes about 29.6 million hectares. And most actually of these are actually agricultural and the next is actually forest and grass and bruises and shrubs. And we also have open forest of the forest that we have about 67% are open. And the Philippines has a unique biodiversity and it has actually have endangered species also. Now, the degradation of the Philippine biodiversity will result actually to unsustainable production and consumption. And that's actually the impact on our green economy because about 8 million hectares of forest land has been lost due to mining, lodging, and land conversion since the 1950s. And about 98.939 hectares of agricultural lands were approved for land conversion from 1988 to 2016. You can see a lot of skyscrapers in Metro Manila and even already in the different highly urbanized cities of the Philippines. Now, about 13.2 million hectares of degraded soil due to pollution, deforestation, agricultural practices, industrial activities, and mining. With regards to our blue economy, now the total fisheries production, FISA production for the period of January to December was posted at 4,250.79,000 metric tons. In 2021, FISA production exhibited about a reduction of about 3.4% loss from previous year's production. And you can see here that we have lots also. However, there was a declining trend in the production. Now, the contribution of fisheries to domestic seafood consumption. So, there is actually a decline from 1993 to 2018 at the National Nutrition Survey because our agency conducts regularly the National Nutrition Survey. And most seafood is consumed as fresh with process fees for stations and mollocks accounting for a smaller proportion of seafood consumption. Now, we have actually also illegal and reported and unregulated fishing impact on our blue economy. And Philippines places 20th in Global Illegal Fishing Index. So, the state of food production in the Philippines is declining. And you can see the trend from 2010. That's actually the Philippine statistics authority. And you can see here that the commercial fish has been declining also. And also at the municipal and apaculture communities. And the relationship between population growth and fish catch in the Philippines is actually inverse. And you can see that as the population increases, our free supply is decreasing. Sorry for this. Okay. So, it's actually decreasing. And the declining employment share and consistent poverty in agri-culture is the one also pushing those who are in the marginalized population putting critical our biodiversity. And the state of the Philippines decreasing self-sufficiency in agri-culture commodities and growing import dependency is also one of our biggest problem. And you can see the different countries where our food here in the Philippines are being imported. In our survey, household food security by residents and wealth fintile, you can see here that our food secure households way back in our survey in 2022 was actually 44%. And that's actually the food secure households. And what is very worse here is actually the severity food insecure about 13%. And the poorest population are the most food insecure population. And they are actually found in the rural area. Now, you can see that about the main one-day household food consumption and personal contribution of key food groups. You can see that rice occupying cereals occupies the bulk of our meal or of the food consumed in our diet. And very few comprises actually the, if you can see only fish meat and poultry about 22%. And for vegetables about 15%, 9% for at 4.9% or 5% for our green leafy vegetables. Now, what is very glaring here is our food consumption, which is only about 4%. It's very far from our WHO recommendation. And the diversity among Philippines is called age children. Children from rural area and poor wealth fintile have less diverse than it. And you can see in our graph that our rural population are really the most affected population. And they are actually the poorest also. And there is also a decreasing intake of energy giving foods in our population. As from our 1978 survey down to the 2018-2019 survey, there was really a declining trend of cereals and cereal products start here roots and tubers. And also our fruits and vegetables for meat and poultry. And for energy intake in the Philippines, it is very inadequate. And you can see that if we compare with our Philippine recommended dietary standards, we did not really meet our recommendation. And only about 31% have adequate energy intake. And the malnutrition trends, of course, that's the result of lip reduction or that's the result of our biodiversity loss also. And you can see that there's a double burden of malnutrition. And also the underweight and stunting, wasting and overweight are really occurring tremendously at unalirming percentages. And also for our pregnant women, we have about 16% who are nutritionally at risk, including our overweight lactating mothers is also increasing. And among our adults, 20 to 59 years old, overweight is very high. And for our elderly also, why overweight is very high? Just because they consume a lot of what they call is less nutrient dense foods. Now, examples of targeted measures to maximize our co-benefits. So we have to maintain and enhance diversity to support more diversified diet. We have to implement seed sector frameworks that support in the genoscrap varieties. We are starting this already in the different areas. And we design food systems that are nutrition sensitive and place a value in biodiversity. This is actually included in our Philippine plan of action for nutrition, for the nutrition sensitive indicators. Enhance pests, disease and weed controls and integrated pest management, improving soil health management and promoting and enhancing sustainable production and consumption of local food. So we call this the indigenous vegetables and fruits. We also promote the use of ecosystem based approaches and managing and restoring vegetation in the different cotsmets. We have to promote the sustainable management of freshwater systems and coastal-freeze habitats. They are at our government is actually already developing regulations on this. Improve freeze post harvest methods to reduce waste and revive food cultures. Making healthy local food accessible and desirable to school-age children. That's actually one of our functions at the age in our institute to actually use agricultural products for supplementary feeding of our school kids. And for example, our nutribounds we use at the squash to make nutrition and nutribounds. Promoting education on nutritional value of locally sourced foods. And strengthening surveillance and monitoring. We have to actually do a lot of these because this is where we are weak. And creating healthy, sustainable and equitable food value chains. Now moving forward to sustainable and healthy diets and food system, of course, there is a need to integrate biodiversity for nutrition and health. Encourage policymakers to mainstream nutrition and dietary considerations. Currently, we are always invited in Congress or in the Senate to actually make or provide evidence-based data for our policymakers in developing evidence-based bills or loss. Now improve existing policies. Yes, we are actually continuously trying to analyze our existing policies and make it more enhanced for better implementation. And consumer behavior changes. We have a lot of messages that we have developed. And it is also posted in our institute's website in order for people to actually browse and get some simple messages regarding nutrition and health. Application of agroecological regenerative approaches of procedures to promote biodiversity conservations. Our department of agriculture is taking good care of this. And of course, education. And we have to involve actually developmental organizations. So with this, I'd like to thank you very much. This is a Food and Nutrition Research Institute FASAD. Thank you so much. Thanks a lot, Imelda, for the very comprehensive presentation. We have time for questions. I have a question that was also dealt with yesterday and this morning. How much is the concern for the sustainability of the system in other countries? Because we are very well aware of the difficulties we have in Europe. But we have no idea of what happens in other countries. And the Philippines might be a very different country from Europe. Imelda, could you hear the question? Yes, actually trying to look at the cost of improving the biodiversity. I don't have any idea at this time. But let me explore this and ask the different agencies like the Department of Agriculture, which the very officials belongs, as well as the green economy of the Philippines is actually under them. We have another question coming. Okay. Thank you for your presentation. Do you hear me? Yes. It's very dear. Thank you. Okay. Let me ask you a few questions regarding your presentation. As you told us that 98% land is changed, agricultural land is changed. So that in what forms of those land are changed? To which form? My first question, second question, illegal fishing is higher in Philippines. You said that what are those illegal activities? Those activities which to be said as illegal. Third question, in rural area of Philippines, the shortage of food dies. What do you think that there is when you compare with the urban people? Why the rural people face food shortage? What do you think? Thank you. Can you please repeat the first question? Is actually the land conversion? Yes. So the agricultural lands are actually converted to residential place. And because since the inputs of agriculture here is somewhat not yet, you know, it's more of a problem because it's somewhat expensive. So the farmers or those who own the land must prefer to actually sell it to those who are building condos or apartments in the Philippines. So it's actually converted to residential. And for the illegal fishing, I said that it's just because yes, it's well known that our terrestrial waters is very rich in aquaculture and a lot of trees are abound in our terrestrial areas. There are actually, there's a use of illegal method that's actually the dynamite and also illegal fishing because some people actually do it the unregulated way. I cannot say it. Like for example, the Chinese go to our seashore to catch fees. And these are actually already being sold by our government through, well, negotiations and discussions with different nations involved. Okay. Why rural area are the most affected? It's just because of course of their lack of their low purchasing power. We know very well that those who are in the rural area have less opportunity to work except that they go to farming and they are the most marginalized population. Purchasing power is very low. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Other questions? I have one for you, Imelda. Yes, sir. There is always a discussion about the fact that our global diet is too dependent upon a very limited number of crops species. Are there in the Philippines attempts at utilizing new species that could be domesticated quickly to turn them into crops? So by taking direct advantage of the biodiversity that you have available or not? There are actually moves already but by different organizations. For example, our International Institute for Rural Reconstruction they are actually promoting already indigenous products to actually grow in our areas and there are a lot more organizations trying to actually propagate those products or plants that easily grow in our country to diversify our food supply and because of our large population there's really a need for us to really not only diversify but also increase the volume of production in order to feed most of our Filipino population. Thanks a lot. So thank you. We have another question from the floor. And if there are questions for Nicoleta this is the time to ask them. Thank you very much. I just wanted to follow up on what the previous question. One of the major problems I think affecting a number of countries which are centers of origin of biodiversity is the so-called biopiracy where genetic products and traditional knowledge is used by big companies patented and sold back to the countries of origin. Are the Philippines enacting some protective laws concerning that? I mean, I have the example of Indonesia in which you cannot take a sample even a liver sample as Professor Tiribeli knows very well out of the country because they don't allow any organic material to leave the country. Are the Philippines having similar regulations? Thank you. Yes, sir. The Philippines have that regulations also where the difference of flora and fauna here are not actually allowed to get out from the country in the same manner that they actually also control the incoming of the different species in the Philippines because this might actually contaminate our existing biodiversity. Lala, cello. This is a question for the previous speaker. Emelda, sorry. Yes, as it is. So I found it very interesting the question of defining quantitatively what is sustainability. So like if you want to compare for instance, you were saying regular milk with plant-based beverages the first of all you have to define what you want to quantify as sustainability and then a second step is also how you measure it because you were telling us that if you measure it with volume, you have one result and if you measure the quantity of proteins you have the opposite result if you want to compare them. So like, is there someone who is trying to bring up a definition of sustainability which is taking into account all the different aspects and so is a measure is a quantity that can be measured in different contests but let's say in a uniform way so you don't change the definition of what you're measuring from one side to the other so that you can actually compare them and the second question which is more specific is in that diet that was proposed by how was it the Lancet commission yeah, the Lancet diet exactly so does it happen sometimes that sustainability is not a good proxy for healthy food so is it always the case that what is sustainable is also healthy and if it is not the case how do you weight something sustainable and something healthy in the definition of this diet thank you thank you for the question I can start with the second one that is easier for me they combined the nutritional requirement and also the effect of food food group on healthy and the prevention of non-communicable disease so they merged these two aspects that of course are most important to define a sustainable healthy diet so this means that the quantity in their idea that they suggested are healthy and sustainable so in the same way so because they consider two aspects and combine them for the first question to the best my knowledge I would say no there is not a definition because of course you can use different approaches for example different functional units but also different life cycle stages so some are for cradle to retail or gate some are from cradle to the plate that was the case of meat alternatives so of course it is difficult to compare the results and to have a final answer of what is sustainable I mean I am aware that it is a very high shot to try to define sustainability in a unique manner but this is somehow a source of frustration for me being a theoretical physicist and also having some knowledge about statistics because I mean if you define differently a quantity you can literally prove something or the contrary of it at sustainability in a certain way you can prove that electrified vehicles are more sustainable than regular ones if you define it in another way taking into account for instance the extraction of rare earth materials it can be sometimes it is not the case or it is at least something that is not easy to demonstrate so even in food it depends on what you measure and how you measure it that are proving different even opposite statements but the point is not that they are wrong or they are contradicting each other but they are just measuring something different I would say that now is you can solve or try to solve data specs using a homogeneous database so we have now some data set of for example carbon footprint or gas gas emission and you can use that because they sort all the data they try to combine all the data based on similarity approaches so that could be a solution of course and usually to evaluate the sustainability of a diet you use this database that is are improving and proving because we use and the study I show that we use a database that now is definitely improved and so in this case of course there are uncertainty range because of course different studies collected and so on but in this case you can have a good idea about the sustainability of a diet I would like to add one element I think you have to bear in mind that the health benefit attributes are I wouldn't say necessarily fixed but they have a narrow range of variation while the sustainability profile of the production of food has a huge range of variation so it's much easier to define what we should eat to have a healthy diet and then try to re-focus the production systems towards producing that food in the most sustainable manner and bear in mind that sustainability even if we talk only about environmental sustainability which is what we have been mostly talking about is made up of many different components greenhouse gas emission biodiversity water consumption and so on so even just building a combined index would not be easy because it would need to choose what way to give to each of these components but then on top of that and that's something that we haven't discussed much there is also we should all go into the equation but you physicists are able to solve complex equations so that's why we are here Thank you speaker I would like to ask when is frying have a good method of cooking but at length it's also vitamin E in frying food is there any truth in that at the when is frying no food when is it ever a good method of cooking is it ever a good method of cooking because at length vitamin E is actually not probably not the sauce from frying probably not the best cooking method I said a lot the cooking methods different cooking method on for example vitamin C bi-active compounds in vegetables and I would say that for example carot the best cooking method is boiling because you can release the beta carotin from the structure and so if you add also oil you can have the maximum viability of these compounds so provide vitamin A but in case for example of broccoli would better to steam than boiling because otherwise vitamin C or other compounds can be in the water so is quite so there's no truth in vitamin C from frying vitamin I have a big experience of that sorry I would suggest that you continue the discussion during the break because we have to have coffee break please join me in thanking both speakers for their excellent presentations and we meet again at 10.30 for the next session thank you so much thanks a lot Inelda thank you bye bye