The next item of business is statement by Keith Brown and update on BiFab. The cabinet secretary will take questions at the end of his statement, so there should be no interventions or interruptions. I call on Keith Brown up to 10 minutes, please, cabinet secretary. Thank you for the opportunity to make this statement today. A Parliament will recall that on 22 November 2017, I gave a statement on the circumstances surrounding the future of burnt island fabrications, or BiFab, as it is known. Several months have obviously passed since then. I want to take this opportunity to return to the chamber to provide an update on the progress that we have made and the commitment that this Government gave to support the company to fulfil the bold contract and to try to identify a long-term future for the BiFab yards. Operating over three sites across Scotland, burnt islands, Methil and Fife and Arnish on Isle Lewis and the Outer Hebrides, in November BiFab had a permanent workforce of around 250 staff, with a further 1,100 employed via agencies to support specific contracts. However, as you will recall, in November the company filed a notice of intention to appointed administrators that triggered a period of intense discussion. Urgent further discussions led to a number of financial commitments that were made that gave BiFab the comfort that it needed to delay a decision to place a company into administration immediately and to continue toward the completion of the contract that they held for the Beatrice offshore wind farm limited bowl. All those involved in those discussions—SSE, partners in the bowl project, Siemens, Seaway heavy lifting, BiFab themselves and the trade unions that are united in the GMB specifically should be given credit for having taken a very proactive attitude towards achieving a solution. As an added security, the Scottish Government committed to making available, if necessary, a commercial loan to BiFab. Presiding Officer, that collective approach not only provided an opportunity for the continuation of the bowl contract but also created space for on-going work to secure third-party investment. At the time, both myself and the First Minister made clear that we would do everything that we could to identify a way of bringing in new investment and of giving BiFab the best possible chance of winning new orders and securing a long-term future for the company. I am delighted to say that that goal has been achieved. Earlier today, one of Canada's largest independently-owned construction companies, GVDriver, acquired BiFab through its subsidiary DF Barnes. In a deal broken by the Scottish Government, DF Barnes will combine their financial backing and project expertise with the international profile and skilled workforce of BiFab to secure fabrication and construction contracts in the offshore renewables, marine and wider energy sectors. DF Barnes has been a consistent employer in the oil and gas fabrication and marine industries for over 80 years. It has expressed its interest in global expansion and recognises the opportunities that are here in the Scottish market. As part of the agreement, the Scottish Government will expand the loan facility that is made available to BiFab for the completion of the bowl contract and convert that loan to a minority equity stake in the new company. That loan facility has been made on a fully commercial basis. The extent of the shareholding will be determined by the extent to which the loan facility is utilised in completing the bowl contract. The shareholding itself will not exceed 38 per cent. While, by its nature, elements of the agreement are commercially confidential, in the interests of transparency, we have shared the details of the loan facility with the Finance Committee, and I am happy to provide the committee with any further information that it requires. We also want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to the workforce on all three sites—Burnt Island, Methil and Arnish. Our focus has been and remains on the workers, their families and the surrounding communities. We acknowledge that the past few months have been an anxious time for them, their families and the communities involved. I appreciate their support throughout the process and the contribution that the trade unions, the GMB and Unite have made to securing the agreement. The First Minister and I met with the new owners, the existing management and the unions earlier today at Methil, and everybody there was committed to building a successful future for those yards. Although we are positive about today's announcement, the work cannot stop there. Offshore renewable energy and the offshore energy industry in general is a key strategic opportunity for Scotland's economy. Renewable energy is already providing significant levels of skilled employment, often in relatively rural or remote areas. However, all of us want the supply chain to develop and grow further. If you look at Scotland's oil and gas supply chain, that sector's success was not immediate. It took time to build the supply chain, but it is now globally renowned. It employs more than 100,000 people in Scotland, and it exports that expertise to countries across the world. We now want to create as rapidly as possible a similar success story for offshore renewable energy. That is why we are investing in infrastructure, supporting ambitious companies, promoting research and development, and also ensuring that people have the right skills. We want Scotland's renewable resources to provide skilled employment, as well as sustainable energy for communities across the country. There are some real opportunities for the Scottish supply chain, including BiFab, from a number of consented wind projects, for example Concardin, Murray East, Inch Cape and NNG, which was discussed in Parliament earlier, and Seagreen, plus further opportunities south, for example, in Horns E2, East Anglia 3 and Doggar Bank. Of course, those are commercial decisions for the developers, but our aim is to secure as much work on as many projects for Scotland as possible. To help achieve that, we will combine our efforts and those of our enterprise and skills agencies with pressure on the UK Government to recognise the sector in developing their industrial strategy. Scotland has a competitive advantage and the building blocks that are critical to more expansion in the renewables sector via the skills of the Scottish workforce. Indeed, that was one of the main drivers for DF barns becoming involved in the work in the first place. Also, our existing port infrastructure and location and our innovative academic community add to that competitive advantage. With our relatively new industries, it is not always going to be straightforward and we will not, of course, win every contract, but as today's announcement shows, perseverance can achieve results. Presiding Officer, today's agreement gives the workforce, the company and the Government the best possible chance of securing a vibrant future for those yards. The Scottish Government believes that BiFab can be a thriving business, supporting Scotland's offshore renewables and oil and gas industry, as well as competing internationally for work. We will continue to work with the company to achieve that success. Again, another key attractor for the company, the involvement of the Government in coming to this decision today. As the current contract, the bull contract, comes to an end and while efforts go into winning new work, there will continue to be difficult times for the yard and for the workforce. However, I am confident that the agreement, which will see the Scottish Government become a minority shaleholder in the company, will deliver for BiFab's future in Fife and the Western Isles. Thank you very much. We have just over 20 minutes for questions. Can I urge, if members wish, to ask a question to press their request suite buttons now, and I call on Murdo Fraser. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Can I thank the minister for his statement and for advance sight of it? That is good news for BiFab, the workforce and the wider economies of Fife and Lewis. For months, a dark cloud has hung over the company and the local areas affected, and the announcement of the acquisition by DF Barnes today will be warmly welcomed. I would like to associate myself and my party with the cabinet secretary's remarks about the workforce and the contribution that has been made by the trade unions in helping to secure the future of the company. Along with a number of my Conservative colleagues, I was happy to join workers and trade union representatives at their recent rally outside Parliament. I would also like to give our support to the Scottish Government's ambitions for off-shore renewable energy and its on-going support for the oil and gas sector. I have two specific questions arising from the cabinet secretary's statement. Firstly, what assurances have been given regarding the number of jobs that will be secured at the three sites, burnt island, methyl and Arnish, including not just the permanent workforce of around 260 but the additional 1100 men and women who were previously employed through agencies? Secondly, while I acknowledge what the cabinet secretary had to say about the need for commercial confidentiality, is he able to outline to the chamber the total value of the Scottish Government's support for the new purchaser? I thank Murdo Fraser for his initial remarks. The dark cloud that he refers to as having hung over by fab is certainly true for each of the individual employees concerned. That is that human element to this particular situation, which has been very important. In relation to the jobs, the assurances only come from winning contracts. We have made this clear right the way through in order to grow the workforce, which is what we want to do. Many of the contract employees that Murdo Fraser refers to are no longer work there. The contracts have not been wound down, but it was pointed out today that by fab in the past has had more than 2,000 employees. The determination of those on all sides today at the announcement to try to make sure that we grow as many jobs as possible is very evident. The fact that it is shared by trade unions, by the new owners, by the existing management and the workforce generally is a very encouraging sign. The jobs fall winning work, winning contracts, and we are doing as much as we can, obviously within the constraints of the procurement process, to help with that. I have to say, unfortunately, that I cannot give more details on the quantum of money that is involved that is commercially confidential. I will, though, as I said already, share as much of that information as possible with the Finance and Committee. I realise that there is an interest there, but it is commercially confidential. Jackie Baillie, to be followed by David Torrance. I thank the cabinet secretary for an advanced copy of his statement and very much welcome the news about BiFab. I believe that everyone in this chamber wants this deal to work and we salute the efforts of the workers and their trade unions in their unstinting campaign. The cabinet secretary knows that we believe that too many renewable jobs go abroad, so this is a welcome respite. Redundancy notices still hang over a number of the core workers at BiFab. Can the cabinet secretary confirm if the new owners will move to lift and retain skilled labour? Will he ensure that there is a continuing role for the trade unions, not just in terms of recognition agreements, but sitting round the table helping to secure the future of the yard? Finally, I believe that the Government provided loan funding of £15 million in November 2017, a further £4 million in March 2018, and that will be providing a welcome additional £10 million for restructuring. Can the cabinet secretary confirm that the original £19 million loan is the equity stake in the company and tell us what happens when this is repaid? Will the Government's interests cease and over what timeframe this is envisaged? First of all, I should say that the quantum of monies that is eventually provided by the Government will be dependent on the extent to which it is drawn out and is required by the company itself. First of all, I think that the discussion that we had today at BiFab involved the trade unions, the management and the new owners. It was the first time that the trade unions had met the new owners formally. We left them having discussions on some of the issues that Jackie Baillie has raised and it is for them, the new owners, to take forward those propositions. They have no intention of sharing further staff. They have a commitment to try, as the trade unions and others have, to try to grow the numbers of staff there. However, of course, that is a decision for the new owners. It was also pointed out by the company DF Barnes, which has taken over BiFab the very productive relationship that they believe that they have had with trade unions in Canada. They want to seek to continue that productive relationship with the trade unions. That was reciprocated by the trade unions. There is no question that there is a very good basis for collaboration going forward with the trade unions. There is no intention to de-recognise or get rid of trade unions—a very productive start to that relationship. On Jackie Baillie's last point, we have said to the company, and one of the reasons why they were as keen as they were to get involved with BiFab is that the Government wants to stay in for the long term. We will have to wait and see how that develops in terms of the equity stake, and that, as I have said already, will depend on a number of different factors. However, we have said that we want to make sure that we do as much as we can, not just for BiFab but for the renewable sector in Scotland. The company is quite used to working with Governments, and it is keen to work with the Government. It is one of the reasons why we have managed to get the successful conclusion that we have had today. David Torrance is to be followed by Alexander Stewart. I am delighted with today's announcement that it secures the future of BiFab and the jobs of many of my constituents. Does the cabinet secretary agree with me that this deal provides long-term assurances for a company with opportunities for future growth? I agree with David Torrance, but what it does is to secure the work that is there to finish the contract, which has yet to be finished in relation to the bold contract. It allows the company to go forward to try and secure further work, as David Torrance mentions, with the backing of a very experienced new set of owners and the financial clout that they bring, and with the knowledge that the Government has invested in is quite literally in many different levels. That prevents a very positive potential future for BiFab. The crucial point will, of course, be in winning those contracts. There are two contracts coming up in the fairly short term, which BiFab will have an opportunity to win, but there is also other work that we can identify and work with the company to try to ensure that they have the best possible chance once again within the procurement regulations. However, I agree with David Torrance and the fact that his constituents, many of whom work at the location, will be hugely relieved by today's announcement. I welcome today substantial developments for the workforce and for the company. The Scottish Government believes that BiFab can be a thriving business, supporting Scotland's offshore renewables and the oil and gas industry. In your statement, you indicate that the loan facility will be expanded and converted into a shareholding. Is this a short term, a medium term or a long term arrangement? When would you see the timescale for the disposal of that shareholding being realised? As I said in my statement, the loan is on commercial terms and our commitment in terms of that investment and our support for the new owners will be as long as that is required in order to win the jobs and the work for the company. However, it is very important at this point that I refer Alexander Stewart back to his last question on this. When he accused himself and the First Minister of having said at November that we had saved the company, we have never said that, and this statement today does not say that either. We have made sure that the company continues to exist right through to the completion of the bow contract. We have made sure that we have helped to facilitate new investment by very credible new owners of that contract. What that does is give them the best possible opportunities for the future. We will stay in it for a long time, but we should all be clear. The workforce and the trade unions and everyone else who was there today is clear that there is a great deal more work still to be done, but they now have the opportunity to achieve those new contracts and also to further grow the workforce. I very much welcome the positive news today about the future of BiFab, and I believe that the workforce has shown determination, dignity and a huge commitment to their yards and to their communities, and today they should be proud of what they have achieved. The cabinet secretary is right in recognising that the work does not stop here and it is now crucial for BiFab to secure new contracts going forward. With the Government now having a minority equity stake in the company of up to 38 per cent, how involved can or will the Government be in supporting the company to secure future contracts which he recognises is crucial to their future? I thank Clare Baker and the group of MSPs who have been involved with us as we have gone through the previous months. It has been an extremely responsible attitude that has been taken, which has been helpful to the Government and to BiFab to get to the stage that we are now at in the way that the MSPs have gone around their business. It is also true to say that the support that we have, the fact that it has been united, has been very helpful to us both with BiFab, but also in relation to the substantive point that Clare Baker raises in relation to further opportunities. I know that the work that the MSPs, the group of MSPs that was established, did in relation to that and that has been mirrored within the Government. Both myself, the First Minister and Paul Wheelhouse have been involved in making sure that we do the work that is required with potential future contract opportunities to make sure that there is well place as possible. We do that as I keep saying and I have to keep saying within the procurement regulations that we work within, but the fact that we have been able to have that united front and the fact that we have been able to talk to some of those potential opportunities with now the backing of a substantial company with financial reserves and experience in this field has been hugely important, so that to me is a very encouraging aspect. As Clare Baker rightly says, we know that this is just the next stage, the next very important stage that follows after this is to make sure that we win that work and a great deal of efforts going into that. Jenny Gilruth I join with colleagues across Fife today in welcoming this news and congratulating all involved. What opportunities does the cabinet secretary think there are now for BiFab as a renewables industry continues to expand, particularly in the context of the wider Fife economy? I mentioned the different opportunities that we are aware of, but there will be other opportunities that come along. I also thank Jenny Gilruth for one of the MSPs that referred to previously in terms of their support for BiFab and, I think, for the Government's actions over the previous months. It is also true to say that, even as recently as this morning, new opportunities were being discussed with a company that perhaps had not been fully explored up to this point. It does tell me that this company is very hungry for this work. It is not just the case of course that they are interested in the renewables work that they are very interested in, and it is the main reason why they have come here in the first place because of the excellence of the workforce that is here and the expertise, but also in terms of oil and gas, which is a very important sector in this country, and a number of other engineering projects as well. It may not all be in terms of renewables, but even in terms of renewables, some of the opportunities that I mentioned already are not an exhaustive list, so there is plenty of opportunity out there, and our job now is to help to make sure BiFab takes opportunities when they arise. Mark Ruskell to be followed by Willie Rennie. Thank you. Today is certainly a great day of hope for communities in Fife and the Western Isles, who fought so hard to protect their livelihoods in recent months, but to take this day of hope and turn it into a secure future for these communities, it is clear that we are going to need investment. When will Scottish Enterprise be able to finalise their investment plans for these yards to make sure that we have a competitive supply chain and competitive yards? What work is the Cabinet Secretary doing with Baroness Brown to ensure that there is a sector deal for offshore wind coming from the UK Government? First of all, as part of today's statement—I cannot go into too much detail—there is investment being made already by Scottish Enterprise and by high in relation to making sure that this deal goes forward and that the new company or the new owners of the company are able to take the best advantage of those opportunities. The investment that the Government has made is substantially enough. The investment by Scottish Enterprise and by high adds to that. Of course, we will look to see what else is possible to do, but we have a purpose in trying to get a company like DF Barnes involved in this. They are the ones who have the expertise, they are the ones who know exactly what equipment and what facilities they need in order to win that work. Those are the experts and they are the owners of the company and we will work with them. In relation to sector deals, Mark Ruskell may be aware of the frustrations that we have had in terms of the consultation and collaboration on sector deals with the UK Government, but this Parliament's Committee, the Economy and Fair Work Committee has the chance to question Greg Clark on Thursday when he appears before the committee. I would imagine that that is a question that Mark Ruskell would want to take up with the UK Government, but, for our part, we are very keen to engage in this very important sector. Just crucially to add that Mark Ruskell was again one of those MSPs who provided that support, and I am grateful to him for that. Willie Rennie to be followed by Gillian Martin. I thank the minister for an advanced site of the statement. The minister, I think, is right to be measured about today's progress. It is indeed good news for BiFab workers Lewis and Fife, but, as he says in the statement, there will continue to be difficult times ahead. So can the minister perhaps set out a wee bit more detail on some of the pressure points, the milestones, the order gaps that he is predicting and how the company and the Government intend to try to address them? Again, I thank Willie Rennie for his question and I acknowledge the role that he has also played in terms of that support from the group of MSPs that have been most involved. I think that it is true to say that the company is well aware of some of the pressure points, and Willie Rennie is quite right to say that this is a very encouraging, very positive statement. If he wants any confirmation of that, he could check it with the shop stewards and the employees. The First Minister met the employees across the site as well this afternoon, and the relief and the positivity from them were palpable. In relation to the pressure points, one is to make sure that we have the bowl contract, because that is crucially important, so that we can move on. Of course, two other immediate, if you want to call them, pressure points should be the two contracts that I have mentioned, which we are very keen to see BiFab succeed with. Beyond that, of course, there will be the other opportunities that come up—perhaps not pressure points—but those three things, I would imagine, are landmark events for the company. First of all, making sure that the bowl contract is completed helps, of course, with the reputational building that it will have to do in order to win those contracts, and the winning of the two immediate contracts that are in front of them. Gillian Martin to be followed by Liz Smith. I am picking up on what the cabinet secretary has said in his statement on oil and gas and the answer to Jenny Gilruth. Can he expand a little bit more on the opportunities that BiFab has discussed about expanding into the oil and gas sector? Obviously, bringing the knowledge of the renewable sector into the oil and gas sector will only be a positive thing. I can see opportunities around learning from the oil and gas sector, from the expertise in BiFab, as well as those that they expand into renewables. Can he give me a little bit more information on what support they are going to get to access those markets? Can I thank Gillian Martin for his question and say that he will get every support that it is possible for us to provide, in addition to that support that we have already provided financial and otherwise? Gillian Martin makes a very good point about some of the opportunities here. DF Barnes would tell her, if she met with her, that she is very keen to see not just that they can serve some of the contracts that I have mentioned, but that they want to export the expertise that has been built up by BiFab over a number of years. As I said, they have global ambitions. Obviously, those things have to be worked through, the work has to be won, but the potential is there for this company to take BiFab to a greater level even than previously it reached in terms of the renewables industry, but also in terms of oil and gas. Oil and gas is a very important sector in Canada, as well as it is here in Scotland. Of course, there is no harm at all. In fact, there is a great deal of benefit from a company with that background coming into the oil and gas supply chain. There are major opportunities here. DF Barnes has been a consistent employer in the oil and gas fabrication and marine industries, as I said, for over 80 years. As I said, this is a very positive investment, which we will ensure that BiFab can build on its reputation in both those sectors. Liz Smith is followed by Graham Day. The cabinet secretary has quite rightly said that the enterprise and skills agencies are extremely important when it comes to the development of industrial strategy. Can I ask the cabinet secretary whether he will include universities and colleges in that strategy, given their increasing importance in innovation and the training of a dedicated, skilled and flexible workforce? Of course, universities and colleges are fundamentally involved in the skills strategy that we have already produced, but in relation to this particular area, of course, we would want to see that expertise being deployed for that purpose. It will be the responsibility of those enterprise agencies and the skills agencies to make sure that that support is there. Obviously, if it is the case that it develops, as we all want to see it developing, it should have an increasing workforce, and the demand for those skills is going to be increasing over time. It is important that we anticipate that and provide every support possible to facilitate it. Graham Day is to be followed by Lewis MacDonald. The cabinet secretary referred to the potential opportunities presented by BiFab by consented offshore windfire developments in the North Sea, including inkscape of the coast of my constituency. For those opportunities to be fully realised, such developments will require contract for difference, and most do not have that at present. Will he join me in encouraging the UK Government to now play their part in supporting inkscape, other developments, and potentially BiFab by providing that contract for difference backing? I repeat that we are confident that BiFab has a bright future. Of course, they are currently tendering for a number of contracts that will need to be secured under a competitive process, but it is not within the Scottish Government's gift to award contracts, but I am confident with the expertise of the workforce across the three yards. Of course, the knowledge skill and track record that DF Barnes brings that will ensure that any bid made by BiFab in future is competitive. In relation to the UK Government, I would say that the group of MSPs that has been referred to and many others, including the Government, have made representations to the UK Government in that respect. It is also in the UK Government's interests to see a thriving industry here, and I would hope that we will continue to see positive support in that. It is also being receptive to some of the requests that have been made by MSPs and others, including the company trade unions, to ensure that the best possible situation for BiFab is going forward. Lewis MacDonald will be followed by Clare Adamson. Thank you very much. Jobs in the offshore energy sector matter in Fife and in Lewis and across Scotland. The world's largest wind turbine, for example, is about to be commissioned in Aberdeen Bay. I wonder whether the cabinet secretary expects DF Barnes to be interested in fabrication or in decommissioning or in both. Can he tell us whether a minority shareholding will in any way involve Government in decisions about where to bid for what across the energy sector? In relation to the first part of Lewis MacDonald's question, yes, it is the case that DF Barnes will want to look across a range of activities and take opportunities where they find them. I have already mentioned that their background is in oil and gas and fabrication. Of course, they would be interested in decommissioning if it fits their skillset. It is not for the Government to put any limits or strictures on what DF Barnes wants to compete for. That is obviously a decision for them. The same thing applies in relation to the Government becoming too involved as well. We are not the experts. We are not seeking to run the company. We realise that somebody from the private sector with the background that DF Barnes has is our best place to do that. It will be their decision to make. It does not mean that the Government is not going to be a disinterested party. Obviously, we are not going to be shown that by what we have done up to this point, but it is the case that the company coming to BiFab, taking over BiFab in our best place to take advantage of those opportunities. Anchlure Allison. Thank you, Presiding Officer. As a member of the Scottish Steals Task Force, whose work contributed to the successful purchase by Liberty Steel of Clydebridge and DL Mills, I know how effective the dedication of all involved, the collaboration of workforce unions, Governments and community, will have contributed to the successful result today. Can I wish everyone well in that? I will also ask the cabinet secretary what investment the Government is making now to ensure that our manufacturing in all the sectors mentioned this afternoon will have to ensure a viable and competitive future. We have developed and implemented a wide range of policies that Clare Adamson knows with our industrial and economic ambitions at their core. That includes city deals, enterprise and skills review phase 2, the manufacturing action plan and the innovation can do plan. In particular, we have recognised Scotland's strengths in manufacturing, not least with the examples that Clare Adamson has given. That is why we have announced the location and our partners in delivering the £65 million national manufacturing issue for Scotland in Renfrewshire. That is why the strategic board for enterprise and skills has been tasked with focusing our billions of pounds investment in key sectors and harnessing the knowledge of our universities and colleges. That is why this Government has shown the commitment to try and get to the position that we are now in today. That is a very good day for Fife and the Western Isles and a very good day for the employees of BiFab. That concludes the cabinet secretary's statement. We turn now to decision time and there is only one question to be put. Today, the question is that motion 11643 in the name of Graham Day on air quality in Scotland inquiry be agreed. Are we all agreed? We are agreed and that concludes decision time. We will now move to members' business in the name of Lewis MacDonald on the 150th anniversary of Aberdeen trade union council. We'll just take a few moments for members and the ministers to change seats.


Radiant Church presents Radiant Stories, a collection of stories that showcase God's faithfulness to take our hopeless situations and craft them into beautiful testimonies of his power, provision, and love. Welcome back to the Radiant Stories podcast. I am Anna Rittering and I'm here today with the condos, Ryan and Betty condo, and I'm excited today to hear about their ministry journey. They have a bit of a wild ride with leaving the U.S. and coming back and I just want to hear, you know, what God has laid on your heart, why you went away, why you came back. You know, where did your journey as a couple in ministry start? Yeah, I think for, you know, for me it started, I should probably start around the same time, although Betty wasn't in full-time ministry at the time. I was, I graduated college from the University of Central Florida. I had a teaching degree. I was gonna be a high school history teacher and it was that summer after college that the Lord just really made it clear that I was supposed to give some time to him in ministry and so I had an invitation at the time to join a college ministry. I actually never even went to the college ministry before while I was in college, but they were like, hey, we'd love for you to be on staff, which meant you're working for free, you're an intern. And so I said now I have a job, you know, I had a job lined up, a teaching job. It was gonna use my degree. The summer after graduating, the Lord really spoke to me in a variety of ways and it was really clear that he wanted me to go into ministry. So I said yes and I thought it was just gonna be like a two-year thing, but it ended up being, I was 2004. So. Going on 15 years. Yeah, so that was my beginning and actually Betty and I met the March before I graduated college. And so. I actually went to his graduation, he invited me. I don't know why. You barely knew each other. I think we had just met.  I invited her to that and, you know, she was on the worship team with me. It was awesome. So that was my first introduction into ministry. And for me, I think that was when the Lord spoke to me and really us about what our ministry would look like because it was actually, we did a 21-day fast. Oh wow. We're into 21-day fast here at Radiant, but that was my first fast and it was a 21-day fast. And I remember asking the Lord the whole time, Lord, what do you want, what do you want me to do in ministry? What are you calling us? And Lord spoke really clearly throughout the 21 days, the same phrase over and over again. And it was, you know, raise up singers, musicians and worship leaders who will love me with all the heart, soul, mind and strength. And he just kept saying that over and over again in a bunch of different ways. So I started doing that at the college ministry at Wesley Foundation. And I just never stopped even when I went to Kansas City, you know, as a 24-7 prayer room, but that was, for me, the foundation was discipleship, raising up young people to love God wholeheartedly. And whatever assignment the Lord gave me, I kind of used that to walk out the calling. Yeah, I would say in the same way for me, I grew up going to just like a very fundamental Bible church. Ryan grew up with more of a Assemblies of God charismatic background, but going to the Wesley Foundation, which is interesting because it's a Methodist ministry, but it's the first time for me that I really learned about prayer, like what actual prayer is conversation with the Lord. And then fasting and yeah, what it looks like to just kind of pour yourself out before the Lord. Which is great, because I had a lot of, you know, Bible knowledge and memorized lots of scripture and things like that, but it just kind of gave me this hunger for like, wow, there really is more. And in the context of ministry, it kind of painted a broader picture. And then did you make your move to Kansas City after that? Yeah, so that's actually Wesley's where I was introduced to IHOP. You know, I'm like, okay, 24-7 worship. I go to this thing, it's called One Thing Conference in Kansas City. It was powerful. I feel like all of us, you know, we came back to Kansas City, not so much equipped, but I felt like we had picked something up. And so I went back a second year and that's when they announced Foreigner Music Academy. And that's actually what led me out to Kansas City. That was 2005, one thing. Ryan calls me on New Year's Eve and he's like, hey, babe, so I think I'm moving to Kansas City. I said, what? You're moving to where? Bunch of cows. Yeah, bunch of cow fields, right? Flat, corn fields. Yeah, there's no beach there, what? Oh man, yeah, that was a big sacrifice. Long story short, we moved there. I moved there in 2006. She joins me in 2007. And for me, it was, you know, going to Kansas City at the time when I went there was to join with the Music Academy, which was- Had it just started? It literally, I was at Guinea Pig. I was in first year. So Derek Lax announced it at the conference and I was like, yeah, I want to go, I want to be part of it. It was such a great time. And I thought I was just going there for a year and then I was going back to Orlando to, I thought I was getting equipped and I was going to go back to Orlando. And yeah, the Lord just kept us, kept me in KC. Sorry, I just have to laugh. Why? Like, oh yeah, I'll just be there for a year. It was so long, it was a decade. I was there for 10 years. But yeah, just, I mean, honestly, the Lord just used his school to get me there because I never would have moved to a different city to just be a missionary. That wasn't on my radar at all. And so I got to KC that first year was insane because I was the only one, I was 25 years old at the time. Everyone else was 18 in the school. I was the old guy. Everyone else had, you know, parents were helping them pay for stuff. My parents already did all that. They were like, you got to work on your own. I was delivering newspapers. I was working at Starbucks on top of a, you know, 50 hours of school week, plus 24 hours in the prayer room. It was like 90 hours a week. It was insane. It was insane. I don't know how I survived, but the best part of that time, the best part of that time, you know, Betty wasn't there, so that's probably half of how it worked. Yeah, that's right. She was still in, you actually went to Maryland at the time. Yeah, I had moved back to Maryland. So we were at long distance at the time, but the best part of that first year was my time in the prayer room. It was like the sweetest time for me because I was working crazy hours. School, I don't remember any of it, honestly. But I just remember what really impacted me was sitting before the Lord, gazing upon the beauty of God, worshiping him and setting my eyes on him. So that was the first part. Second part was just seeing God answer prayer.  But then the other side of that was we were asking God to do what was in his heart to do. And I saw God answer prayer, corporate prayer. I mean, I'd never really seen before. I'd only really read about in books, you know, seeing us like pray for ending of human trafficking every Monday night, which at the time was not really on the radar of the world like it is now.  And it's like crazy, it was almost word for word, what we prayed on the mic and what we were all joining in with on a Monday night. Prayer meeting, seeing those prayers actually be answered in the city was pretty amazing. So that's the school, I only did a year of it. Actually, I actually dropped out. I'm a FMA dropout, one of the first, but I joined staff that next year. And really I think what kept me, what kept us in KC was just, you know, it's really what I think motivates everybody in life, hopefully, but just the worth of Jesus, you know, whether you're, I mean, to say, a home mom or like a teacher or whatever, the worth and beauty of God is like central, you know. And so that's what kept me in KC. Well, and even for me, because I actually didn't move to Kansas City for IHOP, I got a job at Kansas City Ballet. I had spent my whole life preparing for this career as a professional dancer. So I got a job with Kansas City Ballet and moved there a year after Ryan moved there in 2007. I used it as a platform to go into the prayer room, be commissioned from that place into the workplace and share about like, just like Ryan said, the worth and beauty of Jesus. So that's kind of what kept me there. And I loved what Ryan did. I loved the prayer and I loved being a part of the community, but I was actually never on staff there. I started doing a lot with discipleship and small groups and helping facilitate other, we call them friendship groups. It was kind of like, we were both in ministry, but it wasn't side by side. You were there for a decade. When did the Lord put something on your heart for New Zealand? It was actually 2010. Yeah, it was not long after he'd gotten his worship team, the director of the house of prayer in Todanga, New Zealand, had approached Ryan about coming and me, yeah, us, about moving to New Zealand to help strengthen the prayer room from a worship aspect. So training singers and musicians. And at the time, you know, Ryan had just gotten his team. And the awakening was happening. So there was like a visitation from the Lord where it was like, people were getting healed, saved. It was powerful. Yeah. So we were... And you were dancing? Yeah, I was dancing. Yeah, so we were kind of like, thanks, but no thanks. It was for real, like, sounds cool, but not for you. We're flattered. Yeah. So we kind of said to him, yeah, we'll pray about it. But our prayer was about 30 seconds long. It was 30 second prayers. You got to get our attention if you want us to move to New Zealand. And for me, I was kind of like, where is New Zealand? It's on the other side of the world somewhere. I had no grid for even how far away it was or anything like that. But about six months after the invitation came, I had a really profound dream. And in the dream, I saw the whole layout of this land. And it was like a small beach town. I saw the main kind of like hotel or resort of this area. And in the dream, the name of the building was called the Twin Towers. And I remember even reasoning in my dream thinking, nobody would name a hotel the Twin Towers. It doesn't sound very luxurious. I just remember when I woke up feeling prompted by the Holy Spirit to look up that place. And I remember later, I came home from rehearsal that day. And Ryan came home and kind of all the details came flooding back.  I feel like I'm supposed to look it up.  And then I remembered Twin Towers Resort. So I said, OK, I'm just going to Google this, I guess. So I Google literally typed in Twin Towers Resort and a link popped up. And I kind of went, what? And you clicked on it. And it was like the aerial view that she saw in her dream, like exactly the layout of the land, all the details she saw in her dream. It was on the website wasn't that great. Like that then? Aerial view, like the whole picture of the website was like that with like words over it. So you can't even read the words really. But I said, I mean, it was recognizable enough to where I said, Ryan, this is the place that I dreamt about. I have to know where this is. There's got to be some significance to this. So I'm searching for the address. It's like blah, blah, blah, blah. Turanga, New Zealand. And I went, oh my gosh. Remember that 30-second prayer about Lord, you have to get our attention? You got our attention. Yeah, so he got our attention. We went to visit about six months after that. So that was in? 2011. Yeah, 2011, April of 2011. And then we really felt marked by the Lord. We felt called to that land and that nation. And we knew that we'd go there at some point. We just didn't know when or how or what the context would be. So we spent. It felt like the Lord had said yes, but not yet. And there's a pause button. It was 2015 in August that we felt that it was time. The door was still open. And Ryan had been back one other time to visit without me. And he still felt like it was a calling from the Lord to go. So he felt like that pause button was released. And I announced to my team, they were very mad at me. But I announced that we were moving. Did the team know how long of a process in prayer and how long the pause button had been on? I think a little bit. Yeah, a little bit. I feel like I didn't tell them. Hope I did. Because we went in 2011. And then Ryan went back in 2013. And because it was a yes in our hearts. And so I think. It was just kind of a not yet. Right. And so I mean, I don't want to say it was like rumors. But people would come up to us and be like, oh, we heard you guys moving to New Zealand. We're like, really? OK. Interesting. I didn't know that. So yeah, so the pause button was released. And we just spent that next year raising support. And part-time at IHOP, we were also serving at a local church, a Presbyterian church in Kansas City, which is awesome church. And we had little pearly by then. And we had pearl. Oh, yeah. So we had spent the next year just preparing, raising support. And that was really hard. Like saying goodbye to family, our first child, and on their visits to come see baby. We were like, hey, by the way. See you later, grandchild to the other side of the world. So we were feeling the cost of everything of moving. But we also knew the Lord sending us. So we had so much confidence in going. I'm so thankful that the Lord gave me the dream. I think Ryan's a little bit more like, yes, Lord, wherever you go, I'll go. The Lord knew that Betty needed to be convinced. In the kindness of the Lord, he knew that I was the one that needed the convincing. Because it was like, I felt like it was a ripping and a tearing to leave. So I'm just so thankful for the kindness of the Lord in strategically giving me a dream about a place 8,000 miles away to get me to go. When you visited, did you visit the House of Prayer there and get a gauge for what you were getting into? Had anything progressed over the multiple visits that you made? Yeah, the House of Prayer been going since 2006 in New Zealand. And it had different morphed a few times. 2011, it was on fire. Actually, there was a guy named Aaron Walsh. He was the director. And then there's another guy with him, Dalton Thomas, who's now in the Middle East and doing amazing work out there. And it was really strong. And I mean, it was powerful. I remember it was cool seeing. It was like something new, too, for the country. So we got to New Zealand in 2016. And in some ways, it felt like it was the weakest I had seen it, the prayer room. But at the same point, because the YWIM Youth of the Mission base was there, the Youth of the Mission base was just exploding. And so our staff was small, the prayer room. And some people might go, oh, that's hard. It's dwindled, whatever. But the prayer meetings, we'd have 100 young people. And it would be fiery contending for God to move in the city, in the nation, and in other nations surrounding. So in some ways, the staff of the prayer room decreased. But the prayer meetings, you wouldn't have known. If you were just coming in from the outside looking in, it was like, wow, this is amazing. So I came there. And we got there, and mostly we just tried to figure out what do we do here. And it wasn't exactly what we expected when we landed. We were being stretched to the mat as leaders. And for the first time, really, we were doing it side by side, completely joined together in ministry. Which, how was that? Was that the first time that that had ever really happened? Yeah, it was really the first time. It was awesome. It was so awesome. Yeah, I felt like it really actually strengthened our marriage. It was cool just praying together, asking, like, we didn't know what to do. I felt like that's a great place to be. Get on your knees together and pray about it, and seek the Lord. What do we do? What's that supposed to do? What are we supposed to do? Just sitting there in the living room. It was cool doing that together. And the first thing we did was we had an internship that we were running at the House of Prayer. That was amazing. We did it together. We discipled eight students from all over. They were great students. And it was the first time we had done discipleships together. It was our crash course, also, of how to lead an internship all by yourself. I thought we'd have a full staff, like three or four people. And it ended up being three of us by the time. And that's including us. So we were like, ah.  And so it was great though. We did it. And I feel like there's a lot of fruit from that. We saw a lot of fruit from those eight people. And we still are in contact with a lot of them. Another huge part of what I feel like the reason why the Lord sent us there was the House of Prayer to always run side by side with that while we're in base. But I think for us, it was cool to just go there. And again, we didn't know what we were doing. And it wasn't exactly what we expected when we landed. But we were asked in the course of that year, the first year asking the Lord, we were on the internship. We were also going, Lord, what do we do with the prayer? How do we strengthen what is here? There's some great foundations that you've laid, Lord. And through the work of Aaron Walsh and Dalton. And it had been going for 10 years. Yeah, 10 years. I've been. 10 plus years. Yeah. And so I'm like, Lord, what can we do to strengthen what you've got here in this city, in this prayer room? And we started asking that question of, OK, God, if it took us five years to get here, why now? Yeah. And so it was actually crazy. So it felt like they were supposed to be emerging of the two, like actually become one. Of the YWAM base. The YWAM base. And the House of Prayer. And so we did that in that next year. It's kind of weird. It's like we moved there to build the House of Prayer. And then we essentially shut down the House of Prayer. Basically. Like the Toronga House of Prayer was no more. And we were now one with the prayer. We essentially moved the prayer room into the YWAM base. And we dropped both of our names and became one ministry. And it was called YWAM Furnace New Zealand. And so yeah, we joined forces with YWAM. And I felt like immediately there was strength added. Because in YWAM, I've always loved the House of Prayer. I mean, all our musicians were YWAM. It was like, if it wasn't for YWAM, there wouldn't have been a House of Prayer. The House of Prayer, I mean, probably before we even got there, had really leaned into the strength of YWAM because the numbers were small at the House of Prayer. And so for us, we just we brought them together and it added strength immediately to what the prayer room was. And so I mean, even when we were leaving, the Lord actually called us back. We wanted to stay longer. We did. We wanted to stay. But the Lord called us back. And so leaving, it was really hard, but it was actually awesome because I don't know where it would have been if we would have left it on its own outside of YWAM. But bringing it together with YWAM is I think it's part of the Lord's strategy to actually give it longevity and strength and that it would not, the fire wouldn't just fizzle out. So it's still burning, you know? We've got some crazy prayer meetings going. Yeah, it's so awesome. And we were talking about on the way here just how half the time, you know, stuff wouldn't work. Like the sound wasn't working. But you'd have these awesome musicians and just such a passion and a hunger for the presence of the Lord in to see a move and from this tiny little place in the ends of the earth. That's always really struck me about your guys' heart and mission for New Zealand is that it is such a tiny place at the ends of the earth. So when you guys got there and when you kind of jumped into it with discipleship and with the Lord laying on your heart, like we should partner with YWAM again, what was kind of the biggest thing that you learned at the end of your season in New Zealand? What was the biggest thing that the Lord put on your heart? Like what's your favorite thing about the people or what do you still find yourself praying for New Zealand? I think the biggest takeaway was we're not tied to a platform or like the big, like we just, we really felt God and encountered God in the small and like the smallness of a small, tiny, 150,000 people literally at the ends of the earth. It's actually the farthest city from Jerusalem. It's actually the ends of the earth, you know? So like, and so it's, but we encountered God in the smallness of it. It's just cool to see God move in that place and really like when we were feeling bankrupt as a leader, you know, we were leaders there, but just like not feeling like we had to have it all together and have all the answers, but just really leaning into God and actually encountering Him as like, I'm gonna actually help you in your leadership. I'm gonna give you wisdom. I'm gonna give you strategy. I'm gonna direct your path when you're like clueless and don't know what to do as a leader. And when we did that together when we were asking God, He really met us in that place.  You gotta have the strategy. And I'm reading leadership books at the time. The whole time I'm like trying to like grow as a leader, which is good, you should do that. I'm listening to leadership podcasts, reading books, but really we encountered God as like a helper going, I'm actually gonna help you as leaders. You don't have to have it all together. You don't have to have all the answers and so for us, we just felt the kindness of the Lord, the mercy of God and the help of the Holy Spirit as we were essentially an uncharted territory for us as young leaders. I feel like you guys really, really laid an amazing foundation. You left it in a really peaceful way, I feel, with an open door. I mean, talk about that transition. Coming here? Coming back to the US, yeah. Because, I mean, like you just said, Betty, there was no severing or anything like that, so it'll be kind of like a, we'll go back, you know, and maybe even for a whole another season or something like that, but what brought you guys back to the US? You know, we wanted to stay there. We actually were praying for, we started praying and- January. January. But we even did it fast. We were asking God to show us what He wants to do. Lord, help. Because we were like, we wanted to stay. We got an offer at another church in America to come there. We were praying, God, you want us to stay in New Zealand, go to this church? But we didn't feel peace about either, which is weird. And it was like- Our visa is ending soon. We need to make a decision. And so at that point, we were like, if we don't hear from the Lord, we're going to go to Kansas City where we came from and see and wait there. Ultimately, we didn't feel like that was right either. But when we prayed about extending our visa, we didn't feel peace about that. When we prayed about this other opportunity, just kind of wasn't materializing. We didn't feel complete peace about it. I had a dream. It was not quite as significant or profound, but I did have a dream. God often leads me in dreams, which I'm so thankful for.  And when you're sleeping, I can talk to you. But I had a dream that Ryan and I were driving around this very small town and it felt like the middle of nowhere. In the Midwest. Yeah, it was somewhere in the Midwest. And I remember us feeling like in the natural, it wasn't a place that we would want to be or go to. But I remember Ryan saying, I really feel like this is the right decision for our family. We just kind of started putting feelers out at different churches. Long story short, a few conversations.  But he was like, I have peace about it. And I'm like, what? I don't think I had ever told Ryan about that. The dream? Yeah, the dream. Which didn't even feel very significant at the time that I had it. But I kind of had my radar of like, okay, if Ryan confronts me with this. Small place. Small place in the middle of nowhere Midwest. Could be that. So that was the next part of like having to tell them, hey, we're moving. I think they knew at that point, but making it official and so, and then. I'm telling the community. It was hard. It was a really painful. I kept thinking, didn't we just do this two years ago? Say goodbye to all of our closest friends. But yeah, so the Lord led us back to the US and just even where we are here, it's exactly what we're, what we feel called to do with Lord and spoke to us in 2004. What I want to ask you guys in closing is, how do you feel like the pain and the tearing that came with transition from Kansas City to New Zealand and then from New Zealand back to the US within those two years and all the lessons that you learned and everything that the Lord put on your heart. How do you feel like it, it prepared you for where you are maybe in the settling? Maybe this is, this is kind of where you're, you're settling a little bit. The big one for me is then the Lord, you know, before we went to New Zealand, the Lord was like, you know, Lord spoke as vision, you know, of calling and vision tests in 2004. It was until like 2015 where I really started like going over, back over, looking back over the history of ministry that we've, you know, is at that point is almost 10 years in Kansas City, two years in Orlando and really like realizing that the vision never changed and that the vision is what drives what I do day to day. And so just knowing my vision, knowing, knowing our vision has helped us, helped keep us on course. Being able to even clearly articulate that. So it's more than just, oh yeah, we're doing this and then we're doing that. But we spent a long time really ironing out what exactly is our vision, what is our calling and is this a calling for a year or two or is it a lifelong calling in ministry? And we really felt like it was our lifelong calling that the location could change but the actual vocation would be the same. So that was, I feel like that's been our driving force is the Lord has called us to this. It's, you know, it's from the Lord and we just have to be faithful to it. And whether it's in a prayer room in Kansas City, small ministry and, you know, college ministry in Orlando, literally a small, you know, three-person staff prayer room at the ends of the earth or in Kalamazoo, Michigan, we just have to be faithful to it and it affects our day to day like it actually gives me so much freedom to go. I'm not called to that, you know? Or yes, I can do this because it fits in and actually builds towards what the Lord has called me to do. So that's huge. And then I think the other big thing for us is really the worth of God, the worth of Jesus and like it's the, I mean, in my mind it's a driving force behind like everything that we do is like, you know, why do we love people?   And so he's worthy of our lives, our lives fully given to him, fully surrendered to him. And so I think that's been for me, probably for you, just an over, like just a thread that's been throughout all of it is the worth of Jesus. I love it. I feel like just as an observation, I feel like even the transition, though painful through every season has solidified, it's created unity in the vision. I feel like too, as a couple and that's, I feel like that is so encouraging to, you know, maybe any missionary couple that would be listening to this is don't fear growing apart.  So that's super encouraging, you guys. I have really enjoyed hearing the timeline of everything. It's a pretty big time. It is a pretty big timeline. I love it. So thank you both for being on the podcast. Thanks for having us. It was my pleasure. Um, so this has been Radiant Stories. I'm on a Rittering signing off. Be boobab. We don't know how to end it yet. You're so sweet. Thanks for having us. This has been Radiant Stories. Click subscribe to get a brand new story delivered to you every Monday.